Open Thread: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

I will be running errands until late afternoon or early evening and will check-in when I return.

Fred

This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 12th, 2013 at 1:00 pm and is filed under Open Thread Discussion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

1,424 Responses to Open Thread: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

  1. Lonnie Starr says:
    March 22, 2013 at 9:31 am

    I’ve just been cruising around some blogs and I get that the saner GZ supporters are focusing on what GZ knew about crime in the neighborhood as justifying what he did that night. Obviously none of what GZ knew about crime in the neighborhood makes it legal or even understandable that he would kill anyone because of it.

    It is made clear to NW’ers that they just don’t have that power, and that by carrying a firearm they are creating an unwanted dangerous situation for both themselves and the suspects or subjects. So, with no powers to legally detain, investigate, follow or confront, and having been warned that it is dangerous to do so. How would a NW ever be in a situation where he or she would have to kill anyone?

    Clearly GZ, using his knowledge of crime in the neighborhood, decides that it’s time he put himself in harms way. Unfortunately he picks an innocent law abiding child and imagines himself going up against a dangerous arch criminal. GZ races after the fleeing child he has frightened by his behavior, he catches him, questions him, hurts him and shoots him, then concocts a wild story of eminent lethal danger, at the hands of an unarmed child. To bolster his claim GZ points to the weapon he brought with him and claims that the child was intending to use his weapon against him.

    Fortunately the law has proscribed the use of any claim, that a weapon a person carries to a confrontation, as being a defense for having to kill that person. Thus, if GZ carried a weapon and that weapon somehow got within Trayvon’s reach. GZ would have to answer for it, since he would not be excused for killing to prevent his weapon from being taken away.

    GZ’s attorney’s may say whatever they want to say, but the law says no George, you cannot claim self defense, because you feared your weapon might have been taken away. My guess is had you been aware of this law, you’d probably have realized it would have been better for you to stay in your truck.

    Instead, you now face life in prison for killing an innocent kid, you should never have come into contact with, unless he could have broken into your truck before the police could get there.

    Now the jurors will be told that, they may not consider your claims that Trayvon was going for your gun, as a reason to grant your self defense claims. So, now you must rely on what other claims you have left. But this is why your attorneys will never file for an immunity/ SYG hearing. They know that the laws are against you.

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      March 22, 2013 at 10:46 am

      @Lonnie Starr

      Fortunately the law has proscribed the use of any claim, that a weapon a person carries to a confrontation, as being a defense for having to kill that person. Thus, if GZ carried a weapon and that weapon somehow got within Trayvon’s reach. GZ would have to answer for it, since he would not be excused for killing to prevent his weapon from being taken away.

      Absolutely!! Thanks for the excellent comment, Lonnie. It agrees with the law and case decisions.

      Trevor Dooley tried making a defense that David James went for his gun, compelling Dooley to get to it first so James wouldn’t shoot and kill him. The jury decided that James saw Dooley as a threat because Dooley had a gun. Dooley was found guilty as charged of manslaughter.

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      March 22, 2013 at 2:49 pm

      As Always…..well said.

      Reply
  2. xy11xy says:
    February 22, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Wow…that hearing today was on fire. Isn’t it outrageous that Defense wants to violate Crump/Martin attorney-client privilege?

    Blackwell more than earned his fee today.

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 22, 2013 at 5:52 pm

      1406 commenst !! Way to go Gang !!

      There was no sound on the live feed…I’ll have to watch the “rerun”

      I’ve said this since last year & it’s looking more obvious everyday. They are in wayyyyyy over their heads, and it’s not like they have a good case and a credible client. Losers all the way around.

      Reply
  3. Lonnie Starr says:
    February 18, 2013 at 11:55 am

    New Forensic Analysis Makes Damning Conclusions For George Zimmerman http://tinyurl.com/bavjdzl

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 18, 2013 at 2:05 pm

      Michael Knox is full of crap

      The trajectory does not match his conclusion, nor does his test he did

      a) He held a piece of carboard with a shirt on top of it. If he had not held the piece in front of it, the blast from the gun would have blown the cardboard piece with Tshirt on it, onto the target behind it.

      b) The hoodie and undershirt had to be forcefully pulled down and to the left to line up with the bullet hole, considering it is a str8 front to back trajectory, no angles whatsoever

      c) Witness 18, witness 3, Mary Cutcher & Selma, all stated they saw the defendant simply rise off of Trayvon after the shot. W18 saw it from the confrontation onward, whereby she stated she could tell the young boy was in trouble, and that the adult was the one controlling the situation, and she could tell by the sound of the voices. Combine that with w8 testimony, and the defendant also had the jump on Trayvon.

      Gravity will not explain this away

      Reply
  4. ay2z says:
    February 17, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    update for the wife’s perjury case, docket sounding date looks like the 19th now, with a waiver of appearance.

    What is the importance of this case to the murder case for her husband? MOM said in a hearing, that the lying to the court had nothing to do with his client.

    Is she out in the cold and on her own with this?

    NOTICE OF COURT PROCEEDING 2/19/13 130PM 5C

    (there’s also a waiver for the 20th date, one or the other dates is correct, thinking it’s Tuesday afternoon)

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 18, 2013 at 2:24 am

      Well, Omara’s just talking out his culo

      Fogenhats orchestrated and masterminded the whole thing

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 18, 2013 at 11:16 am

      Unless he has a jury of 6 Afro – Peruvian, lying, un / underemployed, bigoted, racist bastards (hey, a jury of his peers) they won’t buy it. I’m sure he’ll have a few intelligent souls with the ability to absorb knowledge, a few with outstanding common sense and I’m sure in Seminole Count a few intelligent black people, after all…….weren’t they supposed to have a March of all his black friends and that token Lilly white guy……Osterman ????

      Reply
  5. colin black says:
    February 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Interesting, didn’t know that. Anybody?

    Reply

    Dont know to whom he was referring?

    Smith or he seemed to think he charmed an had some sort of bond with Officer Singleton.
    As far as I know she was a former narcotics det.
    An in some refrence to something written emailed or txt on his phone there were some quotes attributed to him.

    One I think was something his father says or said.
    Think it was about haveing the press kicked out of the retreat.
    An he agrees?

    Although foggen had already fled the retreat.
    An something about him saying that he hadnt been advised through the process by a former narcotics officer.
    Cos if he had he would have mentioned it.

    Anyway it wasnt even made clear whom thease messages from foggen were to or for what reason

    Reply
  6. Frederick Leatherman says:
    February 17, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    New Post Up:

    Participate and Support our Right to a Jury Trial

    Reply
  7. pat deadder says:
    February 17, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    Can I ask a question on a different subject.In one of fogen’s jailhouse calls with SZ he asks her if she called his contact at FDLE.She says she did and he was very nice.This was probably answered long ago but I’m curious as to who it was.You are all amazing. thank you

    Reply
  8. annahkonda says:
    February 17, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    Yep, some folks will deny their heritage when it is to their advantage. I refer you to ‘Secrets Uncovered….J. Edgar Hoover Passing For White’ by Millie McGee.

    Reply
  9. colin black says:
    February 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Two sides to a story says:

    February 17, 2013 at 1:34 am

    I don’t think Piers is anti-American at all. I think he’s quite razzle-dazzled and almost red-white-&blue patriotic. I think he’s simply anti-gun and wants to bring a little more Brit-style civility to American life

    Ask any resident of the UK

    Peirs Morgan is a 22 carrat a hole an there were celebrations throughout the land when America was dumb enough to some how thing he was prime time.

    He was despised in the UK an was nothing more than a sleeexe digging hack .
    Editor of the now defunct News Of the World an other red tops like the Dailt Mirror. he was a continual self promintinng smug git.Self recomendation.
    Is realy no recomendation.
    At the time he was sacked by the news of the world
    The only paper in fleet street whom would touch him was the failing Dail Mirror.

    At the time the huge stories makeing headlines wer the atrousites at Abu Grhb an Iraqi Prisons being run by Americans.
    T1orture an humilliation of detainees.Britisg forces were not excempt from thease barbaric atroucites .

    Peirs Morgan was desprate for some of the action an sleaze to boost sales.
    So he knowingly used fraudulent photos staged by guys wearing uniforms probably aquired at an army navy out let an some Asian Lad acting as the abused prisoners Iraqis.
    Blindfolded an bacicly staged as similar to the photos that shoched thhe world at Abhu Grab with hoods torture ect
    But it was all FAKE FAKE FAKE.

    By the way the culture of hacking phones an spying on celebs vvoicemaes ect wich deventualllly destroyed the news of the world .
    Was started by Peirs Morgan.
    This is not conjecture thr prick admittts it in his Autobiographyy phone hacking that is.
    Written before the scandal broke when he was exiled from fleet street in fact he was a whistle blower on a practice he created .
    Thats low .

    Because once the farce of the faked photos of prisoner abuse front page scandal.
    He himself became the front page scandal.
    An that was it his career in the press as a jourlist was ruined.
    He couldnt get arrested never mind a job.

    Then a weird thing started to happen.
    He began to carve out a second career as a pundit on Britians got Talent ,

    A you guesed it Talent show with him Simon Cowel an someother z lister as judges.
    Done a couple of soft soft ball interveiws with some celebs .

    An bam out of the blue we hear he is being whisked over to America to fill one of there prestige spots.
    Thought it was joke to be honest with you but no.
    It was just another one of those only in America momments.
    Your stuck with him now we dont want him back an he will never leave .
    Just because he has an accent he is about as barrow boy street corner want to by some dirty post cards as they come.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm

      Red white and blue patriot? Yes, for good reason as the British flag is also, red, white and blue. 😉

      Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 17, 2013 at 6:53 pm

      Colin we Americans are totally mesmerized by Brits!
      There’s the accent and suave sophistication and intellectual English gentleman perception! lol

      Bring a thug from say seven sisters in Tottenham or a gangster from south end or even some hick country boy and dress him up in a nice suit and once he starts talking we couldn’t pick a prince from a pauper! LOLO

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 18, 2013 at 2:28 am

      Piers is not anti-American

      It is just nonsense from a bunch of rednecks

      I like Piers

      He’s very cool and the British accent is cool to listen too

      He just stated that there should be better gun control

      If you look at recent news, alot of the recent shootings are from legally acquired guns

      Reply
      • Looolooo says:
        February 18, 2013 at 4:55 am

        Jun…… Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with you on PM not being anti-American. Possibly due to your being Canadian you’re desensitized and accustomed to negative attitudes in regards to the U.S. I say that because as an American married to a Canadian, who lived for 3 years in Toronto, I suffered through continuous anti-American conversations, TV shows, news papers, televised government hearings, magazines, etc. My husband once bought a small paper back book (in Canada) about an American topic, which had insulting and anti-American headings and statements on the cover, and he seemed genuinly confussed as to why I questioned him about giving me a book that insults me and my fellow Americans. He didn’t see it at all that way. He simply thought that it was funny. About a year later, I was on my monthly cross-border shopping trip in NY when I happend upon the exact same book, cover and all. With the exception of ALL of the insulting and anti-American rhetoric. I did further research, and found that the insulting copies were printed/bound in Canada, and the non-insulting ones in the U.S.. I began to notice that that was a very common literary practice in Canada. Sorry, Jun, but anti-Americanism in Canada (and elsewhere) is nauseatingly rampant. However, I am NOT in any way insinuating that you habor any anti-American leanings. 🙂

        Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 22, 2013 at 10:07 pm

          LoooLooo~ Based on my travels around a limited part of the world (Europe,  Colombia and Israel) Americans are very much despised world-wide. The “myth” of the Ugly American was never a myth. Americans are perceived to be very arrogant, even when travelling in other people’s countries. I’m not surprised at all. Sometimes, I even agree. I’ve heard too many people refuse to learn another language based on the fact that American Dollars TALK; no need to learn the local lingo. It was pretty ironic that the Taj Mahal now refuses American dollars, since it’s become so much weaker against the rupi.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 18, 2013 at 2:13 pm

        I do not feel Canada is anti-American

        Reply
    • Looolooo says:
      February 18, 2013 at 4:09 am

      Colin……. I simply thought that he was a smug, arrogant, anti-American scumbag who wreaked havoc on UK celebs, but I had no idea just how dastardly and dispicable he really is. I too was shocked and disgusted when I read that CNN hired him to replace Larry King. However, I do agree with him on gun control. And nothing more.

      Reply
  10. shannoninmiami says:
    February 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    This woman put out another thought provoking video. it’s deep..

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:20 pm

      Oh wow, they don’t get more powerful than this!!

      Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm

      Yep. GZ is toxic. xy11xy brings out important characteristics of GZ’s personality. His desire to burn down the lives of others is also evidenced on his MySpace page where he wrote about his “boys” violating law for him, doing a year, and not spilling the beans.

      Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:09 pm

        Extraordinary emotional appeal with a strong finale laced in fact.
        Fogen was definitely a liar, creep and a-hole … before he was a murderer.

        Wonder how well he’ll mix with the prison crowd?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:22 pm

          @Trained Observer

          Wonder how well he’ll mix with the prison crowd?

          IMO, not well. GZ is a small-time bully thug who has bullied people who he knows cannot or will not hurt him. With his daddy helping to get him out of trouble, GZ has not spent time with criminals who have paid the price for their violations of law. GZ is like a cheating basketball player who lowered the basket. Once he’s on a basketball court with people who have always played with the basket at the correct height, it will have an awakening.

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 5:33 pm

            It’s a shame he didn’t live in my neighborhood. We didn’t take any crap from bullies and we knew how to level the playing field…….
            ….and the bullies.

      • Trained Observer says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:12 pm

        Xena — have seen references to Fogbutt’s MySpace page. What was the “boys” thing all about?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:32 pm

          @Trained Observer. O’Mara’s verified GZ’s MySpace page where he wrote;

          “… I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…”

          http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-myspace-page-revealed-details

          Reply
          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 9:12 pm

            Hmmmm… The Ransburg/Burgess group were also on bikes. Is there a similarity there?

          • Xena says:
            February 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            The Ransburg/Burgess group were also on bikes. Is there a similarity there?

            Thanks for pointing out another similarity between his “boys” in VA and the Ransburg/Burgess group. Early on, I said that GZ used NW as a cover-up for crime. In addition, it is still my strong opinion that GZ abandoned his home and went into hiding on 2/27/12 because he screwed up and was/is afraid of someone he knows and knew before 2/26/12. I keep hearing Osterman on Dr. Phil saying that ShelLIE called him and said GZ shot “somebody else.”

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 18, 2013 at 8:43 am

            Gunshot wounds are reported to the police, so maybe someone can look through the police records to see what, if any gunshot wounds were reported over the previous several months? Who knows, might just get lucky and spot something that ties in.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 10:00 am

            i remember reading somewhere back in June or July last year that there was somebody shot at the Retreat and there were no suspects. When Ostermans wife said SheLie said he shot “…somebody else….” the 1st thing I thought was….”that fits”

            Where I read it…..I can’t recall.

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm

            Malisha filed a public records request with SPD. She found an ambiguous reference to a shooting in the records. IIRC, she contacted the records custodian to find out if that shooting was a reference to Trayvon’s death or to some other shooting. I believe the final answer was that it was not a reference to the Trayvon shooting.

            Someone in the RTL called 911 on a different date and reported hearing a shot fired. No one else called and the police were unable to confirm that a shot was fired.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 1:43 pm

            I didn’t put anymore into it than “…ok, that makes sense…” but I never saw anything official that someone was shot, a gunshot.
            Maybe Fogen had an accidental discharge, maybe somebody tossed a lit M – 80 on the ground…who knows.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:31 pm

            Yes that’s a problem, we read so much from links we get from everywhere. But without a theory that assists in recognizing the significance of much, we move on without a note, only to realize later that there is some theory that it would have been a neat fit with.

            Do you remember anything about information it was surrounded by? What else you might have been looking at at the time?

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 1:46 pm

            I have no idea where I read it, but others read it as well. We do know Sondra Osterman said “…shot someone else…”

        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:39 pm

          He talks like a thug and tells about his criminal activity and getting out of it. THEN…..he goes into the “…wannabe thugs..” Huh ??

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 17, 2013 at 6:46 pm

            @racerrodig.

            THEN…..he goes into the “…wannabe thugs..” Huh ??

            GZ was the role model thug, so of course he thought that Mexicans vandalizing cars were wannabe thugs.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:38 am

            My bad I guess…I forgot what a role model he was.

      • Trained Observer says:
        February 17, 2013 at 11:03 pm

        Thanks for link, Xena. Disgusting. Guess he’s getting his lard-ass pinched now, huh?

        Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 17, 2013 at 6:19 pm

      I love her style!

      Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 17, 2013 at 6:44 pm

      Thanks for listening, you ask? You are welcome, and I would offer my thanks and gratitude for this powerful statement.

      Thank you.

      Reply
  11. diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
    February 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    I wonder if Prof. Leatherman is okay? This thread is getting kind of long.

    Reply
  12. ay2z says:
    February 17, 2013 at 11:54 am

    On media influence of juries. (Lyon is the sister of one of the lawyers on the Baez team in the above unnamed case)

    “While producing Race to Execution, it hit her, says filmmaker Rachel Lyon. … Lyon realized that the media’s role had fundamentally changed… the media had become an active participant in the judicial process, with its incessant reporting on crime—and excessive focus on the race of criminal defendants—influencing juries….”

    http://www.bentley.edu/newsroom/latest-headlines/bentley-presents-documentary-juror-number-six-professor-rachel-lyon

    (BTW, just who is excessively focussing on the race of the criminal defendant? Not the state, not so much the media since the family cleared the record, only the defendant and his media machine have kept that going).

    Reply
  13. ay2z says:
    February 17, 2013 at 11:41 am

    looolooo, the media, the promos, talk about anything, do a dance, make a fool of yourself, anything, might be the theory behind the actions from twitter tirades to on air with comedians, albeit politically aware comedians.

    If we look closely at what ‘we’, as followers or participants in this, we might see a correlation to the media lessons of Baez and his ‘consortium’ that offered, if you recall, to fully pay for this killer’s defense, lock, stock and Baez.

    The correlation may be in the area of allowing the killer’s lawyer to provide ‘evidence’, bonefide evidence by the lawyer’s words and only by the lawyer’s words in opening statement or argument.

    Not possible? Not ‘evidence’ people will claim? Sure it is when the jury, duly advised that what a lawyer says is ‘not evidence’ and still considers the words of the defendant who never takes the stand.

    The lawyer who did this in the famous recent case, explained on Friday last (while everyone was waiting for RJ later in the evening) that his words were evidence and that this type of ‘evidence’ was legitimate and offered in all candor and good faith, therefore it was as if his client took the stand herself, and spoke those same words.

    Are there any parallels with this case? Could be hints in MOM”s statements and the Z rhetoric, and what comes to mind, is MOM”s statement that his client has enough already out there in his statements, to not have to testify at his self-defense hearing, which the public now things of as SYG by any other name.

    Three police interviews, plus phone calls, plus the stress test interview of yet anohter account, plus the Zimmy-Hannity hour. And so the public (aka jury) will have things in the back of their mnd that they think they can put aside, but possibly will not.

    What have we heard repeatedly that could morph into evidence as stated only by MOM?

    MOM has already argued in court and to the media, that this is a brave new world for the justice system.

    An exemplar for MOM? Have they worked to assure defendant has enough published and broadcast widely in the media to avoid taking the stand for cross examination, shifting the burden to the state to disprove any SYG or self-defense claim? Have they used ‘us’?

    This is how the other trial defense explains the tactic.

    Reply
  14. aussie says:
    February 17, 2013 at 10:21 am

    Anyone heard from the Professor?

    He’s been gone a long time for “errands” and it’s dangerous out there on a bike. Is he ok?

    Reply
    • Puck says:
      February 17, 2013 at 11:05 am

      I’ve been wondering the same thing. The last time he disappeared for a while was due to some legal-ish issues.

      Reply
    • Cercando Luce says:
      February 17, 2013 at 11:10 am

      It’s 5 days now. On the other hand, he might see his blog as one of those electronic Japanese toys that beeps for attention at inopportune moments– or as a nest full of little birdies with mouths agape.

      Reply
  15. Looolooo says:
    February 17, 2013 at 3:53 am

    I wonder why RZJ is so keen on appearing on very media outlet known to man, but has never once appeared at any of GZ’s court hearings. It’s defianately not because of all the death threats that he and his family continue to receive. wink, wink.

    Reply
  16. ay2z says:
    February 17, 2013 at 1:45 am

    yep, hope so!

    Did you ever notice the little remark cut short by the shooter in one of the early interviews, where he’s describing going for his cellphone, starts to say he goes for it instinctually (gets out ‘instinc…’ before he cuts himself off for some reason.

    Instinctually going for the phone in a certain pocket? Why cut off the word in ref to the cell phone? Now, if he was about to say ‘going for his gun instinctually in a certain pocket’, he’d want to stop himself from admitting going for his gun because he said it was his phone he put in that pocket by some mistake..

    Something like, “I went for it instinctshhh…”

    Did he learn to practice his draw, was it automatic to go for it on his right side instinctually and will shooting range people and his buddy Mark, witness this?

    Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 17, 2013 at 2:04 am

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Fogen went for his gun at that point.

      Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 17, 2013 at 11:15 am

        Instinctually– something stinks iin there, usually.

        Anyone besides me notice how Jr jazzes up his pronunciation on big words? “Injusticeez” as if it were a Latin plural– gotta hand it to the guy, he can talk up a storm without conveying meaning; maybe that’s why Maher told him he has a big future in media.

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 17, 2013 at 11:23 am

        LOL

        Reply
  17. LLMPapa says:
    February 17, 2013 at 1:22 am

    We all know that a crime-obsessed wannabe like Fogen had his gun drawn early on while he stalked around that night.

    Yep, we’re supposed to believe the Captain was out there….

    -In the pitch black dark of night

    -With a flashlight that didn’t work

    -Following a “real suspicious guy”, “up to no good”

    -Too afraid to give the dispatcher his address cause “I don’t know where this kid’s at”

    With his gun still in his britches cause he forgot he even had it?

    RIIIIGHT!

    The jury’ll eat that chit up hook, line, and sinker, LOL LOL!

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:34 am

      I can’t wait until they confront him with the phone records & text messages.

      I’ll take “Incredibly Moronic Zidiots” for $5,000.00 Alex

      Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:51 am

        @kllypyn, I thought that this could have been a possibility as well and, I mentioned it here a couple of months ago. Trayvon could have very well seen the real suspicious *thugs* in the act of thieving from one of the neighbors who they knew wouldn’t be at home that night.

        What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.

        Before all is said and done in this case, there will be other people implicated in this murder as well as using the NW program as a cover for *illegal* goings on at R@TL. it’s very obvious that witness 11 knows a *LOT* more than she is telling. her knowledge of this murder is very telling by her 911 call.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 3:13 pm

          “What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.”

          In the real world it’s called “…Casing the Joint..” and I’ll bet there could be a real legal issues with the HOA on that one, besides the other legal problems they have.

          Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:01 am

        @racer, I can’t wait either because, we will then get to see the real fogen in all of his glory. it’s his phone as well as his phone records that needs to be dismantled and not Trayvon’s. what is the reason for the defense to go after Trayvon’s phone any way and, what do they think they will find on there?

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm

          Trayvon’s phone just gave confirmation that he was talking to Dee Dee. It matters not what GPS info there is. Trayvon, by law, was allowed to be anywhere. The defense is sadly mistaken thinking they are going to “connect the dots” by saying “Trayvon went over here, then there then attacked Fogen” Unless they have video and / or a few iron clad witnesses that state Black Dynamite Slim attacked and was about to kill Fogen….it’s all moot.

          I do know, from my connections, that there is stunning info as to who called who + or – an hour before and a for a few minutes after the shot. I have posted likely scenarios like this but I never get a denial of any kind from my guys.

          Typical (a call could be a text message also)

          Taaffe calls Fogen
          Fogen calls Osterman
          Fogen calls Taaffe
          Taaffe calls Fogen

          Fogen on the move

          Taaffe calls Fogen
          SheLie calls Fogen
          Fogen calls Osterman
          Fogen calls Taaffe
          Fogen calls SheLie
          Osterman calls Fogen

          NEN call

          Fogen calls Smith (“..the other officer I called” Hannity??)
          Smith calls Osterman

          Gunshot Murder

          Fogen calls Smith
          Fogen calls John W6??

          Osterman calls SheLie
          SheLie calls Taaffe

          My Federal Investigator friends never deny my scenario. They cannot tell me what is correct or add anything but there is no doubt this is damning stuff…….why would O’ Mara fight their release ?

          Reply
          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 8:51 pm

            First let me say, what’s good for the geese is good for the gander. The defense is going to have to prove that GZ did not come out of his truck wearing those injuries. Obviously, he could have obtained them anywhere. They were never inspected by a medical professional, so their approximate age cannot be ascertained. Too bad GZ didn’t want to go to the ER and have himself checked an his claimed evidence inspected. So, his injuries are lost. He will not be able to enter them as evidence against Trayvon, because there is no foundation for them.

            In order for GZ to use any GPS data as a defense, he’s got to prove where he was at the time. If all he can do is prove that TM was moving from place to place, but he cannot prove that he was not in pursuit, then the GPS data means nothing. Of course, GZ can make exculpatory claims, but they would be seen as self serving and probably not true, because GZ is not above lying and has demonstrated that he has no qualms about doing so.

            Oh, before I forget, they confiscated a phone from Burgess, which they say was being used to move the stolen merchandise. I have to wonder what kind of data they obtained from that phone? After all, Ransburg, the guy who actually owned the back pack that the stolen 3,000 dollar laptop was found in, may be the same guy who just happens to meet Trayvon at the 711.

            Anyone want to bet that that data from that phone is “lost”?

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:29 am

            Anything is possible. Why is Ransberg painted as a 20 yr old homeowner ? who doesn’t drive…..rides a bike…..hangs with kids much younger ????????

            If that’s him at the 7-11 what’s up with that? His phone….That will be a fun time if that info is retrieved. The State is running this. not Sanford so if it’s there…..duck !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 18, 2013 at 10:33 am

            Obviously this is just the result of poor reporting. The police report makes it clear that Ransberg is the white guy with two blacks and Burgess in tow. The reporter, on the other hand is just taking Ransberg’s word for it and putting down whatever he says.

            But, why would a 3,000 dollar laptop, that Burgess just stole yesterday, be found today in Ransberg’s backpack? Along with Dreamicis’s jewelry? Anyone think that Ransberg believed that Burgess actually owned any of that? Probably not, Burgess isn’t the type of person who would spend 3k on a computer, he probably only barely knows how to write. He doesn’t impress as computer literate or savvy. So, as you can see, little things do mean a lot.

            The police also confiscated a phone they say they believe was being used to move the stolen property. This, kind of thing, might very well be a nice tie in with GZ’s own modus operandi as postulated by others. It’s the poor reporting and data collection that’s vexing and obscuring the details.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 10:42 am

            Reading that article was like reading Hitlers Bio and stopping when he was an alter boy and sang in the choir.

          • Xena says:
            February 18, 2013 at 1:42 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            It’s the poor reporting and data collection that’s vexing and obscuring the details.

            Reporters today do just that — report. There are very few investigative journalists. They already painted GZ as someone concerned about crime in his community without giving thought that based on him starting NW, the increase in break-in’s thereafter, and that GZ witnessed none of it, that he might have used NW as a cover-up for his own crime ring.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 19, 2013 at 8:36 am

            Reporters today do just that — report. There are very few investigative journalists. They already painted GZ as someone concerned about crime in his community without giving thought that based on him starting NW, the increase in break-in’s thereafter, and that GZ witnessed none of it, that he might have used NW as a cover-up for his own crime ring.

            Yeppers, that’s it! And, if one has a critical mind, they quickly realize that there is something wrong with the stories they’re telling. Because they not only don’t get the facts right, but they give reports that are internally inconsistent to boot.

            Also be wary, if you find documents that prove something or state a thing in a certain way, you had better take a copy of it or poof, next time you need it, it will either be altered or gone. The old SPD site was proud to declare that GZ had taken the 14 hour NW course. When that became at issue, they quickly re did the site and left that NW stuff out.

    • Jun says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:41 am

      This murder was based on the most stupidest reasoning of an illogical psychopath

      I honestly do not even know if Fogenhats felt the kid was suspicious and just had something against the kid or just wanted to target him out the blue

      All that is known is the kid walked home from 7-11 with Skittles, next thing you know, he is being stalked by some weirdo creep, who decides to scare and threaten the kid, attack him, and then kill the kid

      The saddest thing is Bill Maher and other media people honestly do not care and they just let his brother go on air telling lie after lie after lie

      I cant wait till this gets to court and everything is properly scrutinized and there is no more of this bloodclot nonsense

      Reply
    • diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
      February 17, 2013 at 2:32 pm

      GZ states his motive for going after Trayvon before every statement he offers, from the NEN to his written statement, to all statements he gives to Singleton and Serento: “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

      Now couple this statement with the following facts: Many of the previous calls GZ made were on young black males; the one young black male who actually did anything was in jail on Feb. 26, so young black males were no longer a threat; there were relatively FEW “break-ins” that took place in that neighborhood in the recent past; and GZ already had his preconceived thoughts about Trayvon (azz holes, punks, on drugs or someting, up to no good).

      Motive is a major factor in many felony cases when determining outcomes. Looking at motive alone, we see no logical motive on the part of Trayvon to have attacked GZ. However, GZ, himself, stated his motive over and over and over, “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm

        @diary

        However, GZ, himself, stated his motive over and over and over, “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

        Indeed. GZ could not take credit for preventing them. His 2/2/12 call was the only call, since he organized NW, where he reported a suspicious person. Even then, the cops found that Taaffe had left his door unlocked and a window up.

        In December, GZ called because a server at his (non) graduation party expected to be paid. I wonder who that was? Burgess maybe? Then he called about kids playing in the street; then the guy in front of Taaffe’s house, then the suspicious guy who turned out to be Trayvon.

        Seeing nothing himself, he concluded that there were “a lot” of break-ins and that young Black males were the perpetrators. That, IMO, sounds like a Taaffe projection.

        Reply
  18. ladystclaire says:
    February 17, 2013 at 1:03 am

    Did you guys hear about the 60 yr old white man, who slapped a 19 month old baby boy on a Delta Airline and not only did he slap the kid, he also called him a “N” word. all of this just because the baby was crying when the plane was ascending. I would imagine this frightened the kid and that is why he was crying. this just goes to show that no matter the age, be it 19 months old or 17 years old, African American kids and adults are just not wanted in this country.

    Just go to YouTube and read some of the comments about this incident. they allow the “N” word to be used there like nobody’s business. the very first comment is very much out of line as well. how can some people be so cruel as to speak this way about a baby who did not deserve such treatment from this HEATHEN.

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:13 am

      Heathen would be putting it mildly. He’s lucky he didn’t get sky diving lessons from somebody. I show my son and his friends how to strike up a conversation with everybody, no matter race, creed, religion. It’s far easier to make friends and find a common topic than to harbor hate.

      Of course I’m the one who says FogenPhoole is more hateable every day, but he’s earned that one.

      Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:17 am

      @ladystclaire. Amazing that in over 200 yrs, bigoted racists can’t think of new words to use as racial slurs. Well, there goes the supreme race, uh?

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:20 am

      It’s a well-known fact that babies’ and kids’ ears sometimes don’t adjust to the pressure changes when a plane gains altitude and it’s quite painful. It can happen to anyone. What an azz. Double azz. If I were the pilot I’d turn the plane around and deposit the offending adult on the ground.

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:28 am

        So, Air Marshall Osterman wasn’t on that plane to put the bigot in his place.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 1:40 am

          He might have been on that flight, he just didn’t want to give away that he was that bigots “…token white friend…”

          Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:31 am

        Then again maybe an impromptu sky diving lesson was in order.

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 20, 2013 at 7:11 am

        It was during descent, and yes, he was cited, charged and arrested for simple assault. What bothers me is that he was fired before there was a trial or anything. “Presumed innocent” doesn’t matter in an age of instant communication. The lack of due process here and with Dorner really upset me.

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 20, 2013 at 7:31 am

          @Cielo –

          Many corporations have requirements for executive performance on the books. Nobody is guaranteed their job outside the public sector (where political pressure can be applied) or by union protection.

          “Drunk racist child-hitter” is not a protected class like disability, age, race, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, gender … other classes on the books I can’t recall right now.

          If he had no employment contract, or if his employment contract had even the minimum performance requirement, he’s out the door. He may not even qualify for unemployment insurance if he was fired “for cause.” Public drunkenness, for example, is often in these contracts. Anything that debases the name of the corporation can be there. If he had NO contract, he’s an “at will” employee and he’s out of luck.

          Due process (from the Magna Carta) originally protected the individual agaist government excess, arbitrary action and persecution. Only if there is legislation protecting certain classifications does one get “due process” or if it’s in the union contract.

          The corporation can fire you, like you can “fire” the corporation (by quitting). No servitude on either side. They don’t have to keep you, and you don’t have to stay with them.

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 20, 2013 at 7:37 am

            I’m with you PMom…

            As with the bit*h that posted a pic of her screaming and flipping the bird at the Tomb of the Unknowns…….WHILE she was on the clock.

            Research needs to be done to see if population growth exponentially increases the number of assh*les on the planet…As there seems to be more per capita today….than when I was a kid?

          • cielo62 says:
            February 23, 2013 at 2:29 pm

            PirhanaMom- thank you for the explanation. I thought that only in “right to work” states can you get canned like that. I read this case only superficially. But with my years of experience as a teacher, even the accusation of anything can get one fired. And believe me, people DO make false accusations for any number of reasons. Many good teachers dismissed or threatened by nothing more than an accusation. So I guess I projected that concern. Obviously once he’s found guilty, he gets all the just consequences. But until then, … Well, like I said I was projecting.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 23, 2013 at 9:07 pm

            @ Cielo,

            Cielo, it’s good to “project” because those who project often do it from personal experience – experience so unique that others don’t have it, and so are inclined to slough such incidents off.

            Teachers and other who work with kids are under the spotlight. (THe floodlight!) I don’t envy the tightrope you must walk – no comforting hugs to kids; coping with vindictive kids that can turn on a teacher with false accusations from spite over a lower grade that “genius kid” thought he or she deserved and number of hazards that GOOD teachers face.

            In the face of that, at least in CA, the teachers’ union is strong and comes to the defense of teachers accused of maltreatment. I expect it’s no so great for teachers in TX.

            The corporate world does not have that sense of accountaability. Ethics flow from the top -and reflect the CEO or Chairman. In this case they made their judgment known imediately, and since the brutality toward the child was witnessed, is evident from cuts & bruises, and, I expect, the racial slurs were likely overheard as well – so the corporation was in a good position to cut this guy loose without fear of public backlash.

            The U.S. is almost unique worldwide in not placing restraints on executive termination. If the evidence were not there and witnessed, he could have an age-discrimination case against the corporation, but with the facts at hand his behavior is univerrsally rejected by the public. I note he was not traveling on business, so they avoided the thrat of litigation, but they still canned him.

            I don’t see how teachers cope with parents, the administration, and kids filled with a great sense of entitlement these days. The love of teaching must overpower your survival instinct!

            To warm a teacher’s heart, I’ll relate a story from years back (in the era when I was Methuselah’s daughter …) when I was absent-mindedly doodling in French class, at age 10. I loved drawing and bored by the class, and Monsieur Lalonde ordered me to stop drawing and pay attention. I was not a bratty kid, was a good student but for some reason decided to defy the man and kept on doodling. Mr. Lalonde walked to my desk and said, “If you keep on drawing, I weel peench the nose of your face!”

            At least I was savvy enough not to burst out laughing, but not savvy enough to quit drawing, and so, as promised, M. Lalonde gave my beaker a good Gallic twist. But I was stoic – he walked away and at that point I quit drawing (finally), but did not let on that Wow, that smarted! Almost end of story.

            In a few days, as you’d expect, the nose told the tale: it grew purple, blue,green amd Mum asked suspiciously, “What’s wrong with your nose???” Had to ‘fess up I had been snarky in class and so M. Lalonde pinched it. Mum gave me a grave look.

            And as it came to pass, a few days later she met M. Lalonde on the street, and he felt he had to explain/apologize to her. My mother just listened (fortunately I had not lied or embroidered the tale – all the parts fit.)

            When he finished, Mum looked him in the eye and said, “M. Lalonde – if she ever does that again, pinch HARDER!”

            Hey, they don’t make parents like that, these days, do they???

            Bless you, Cielo for your teaching career! I could not do it.

          • cielo62 says:
            February 24, 2013 at 5:45 pm

            LOL! PirhanaMom- great story! I do love teaching children. I teach bilingual Spanish 2nd grade. The parents, like your parents, have tremendous respect for education and teachers. Usually I already have parental permission to give swats. Of course I don’t as they are now illegal. But imagine how powerful that is? “Your mom said I can spank you if I need to. So don’t make me ‘need to!'”

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 24, 2013 at 7:53 pm

            Cielo –

            How I love this!
            “Your mom said I can spank you if I need to. So don’t make me ‘need to!’”

            I am politically active locally on non-partisan issues (primarly the taking of land and homes from people to benefit developers)and due to my sharp tongue and sharper elbows, have opponents both on and off the various boards, commissions and councils I address. Fortunately, far more supporters supporters as well, because the proceedings are televised – and that includes a few Moms of politicians who like to see someone stand up for “the little guy.”

            I know of two “political Moms” I can go to and get a signed permission slip, per your quote. This is going to knock ’em dead in the next hearing, when I read it into the record. I have to do a fair amount of chiding but don’t like to be a scold (where you get a reputation as “always being negative.”) I like to lay down the law with a bit of drollery. A burst of laughter from the audience defuses the situation and has always resulted in the votes I needed.

            “Your Mom said I can spank you if I need to… ”

            Just perfect!

            Thank you, Cielo – we learn so much – and gain so many tactics – from this site!

          • cielo62 says:
            February 26, 2013 at 8:18 pm

            A la orden! So glad it will be used by more than just me, to benefit others!

            Sent from my iPod

    • onlyiamunitron says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:25 am

      Kid was probably crying because his ears were killing him from the pressure change.

      Regardless of what color anyone was, the 60 year old should have been taken into cusody by an air marshall if one was on board, or they should have been waiting to cuff him when the plane landed, after which a conversation with Homeland Security should have followed as well as his name being put on the no-fly list.

      And then off to jail to await trial.

      unitron

      Reply
      • PiranhaMom says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:37 am

        @LadyStClaire, Racer, Unitron, TwoSides, Xena –

        Generally it is the descent that causes babies to cry, because the pressure is greater as the aircraft descends, despite the cabin being pressurized.

        At that age infants don’t know how to swallow “pre-emptively,” move their jaws, hold their nose and attempt to breathe out to “pop” their ears. So they scream because it hurts, terribly
        .
        It is a good time for Mama to have packed a butterscotch lollipop in her purse, to entice the child to suck on it – but you have to start this before descent.

        (That is why airlines used to regularly hand out gum. Aircraft weren’t pressurized until the DC-4.)

        Nevertheless, the attacking adult should have been restrained, airport police advised to meet the aircraft on the tarmac before permitting passengers to disembark, and names and contacts obtained from witnessing passengers and their statements, if possible. (Not always possible with connecting pasengers eager to get to their next flight.)

        Do not try to do this when the plan taxis to the gate: the aircraft aisle is filled with passengers.

        If this incident was not handled correctly, with the adult detained by police on the ground, then Mama’s attorney should sue the airline for slightly less than the price of a small Boeing jet.

        This is not a racial issue. This is child cruelty and endangerment.

        I worked in commercial aviation for 17 years with the final 6 on the Chairman’s staff, working out of the Legal Division, and was awarded a gold medal (as a passenger) for lifesaving during an inflight incident. Striking a child is
        completely unacceptable and the crew has full authority to demand police response.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 2:51 pm

          ‘This is not a racial issue. This is child cruelty and endangerment.”

          I must respectfully disagree 100%. In 1965 we flew from NJ to LA and my youngest brother was 15 months old. He was uncomfortable but didn’t cry. In 1999 we flew from NJ to FL with our 9 month old son who never cried either.

          We don’t even know why this kid was crying do we.

          Nobody had the right to do what he did. How would the mom know how sensitive that child would be to pressure changes, maybe he had a loaded diaper ?? was hungry, maybe he just hates air
          travel ??

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 17, 2013 at 10:09 pm

            @ Racer,

            As I understand your post, Racer,you’re not REALLY disagreeing that slapping the crying child was cruelty and child endangerment, you are disagreeing with my comments re the effect

            of increased pressure on the eardrum during aircraft landings … based on two flights you took with family, 30 years apart.

            All of us who are regulars often impart bits of what we’ve learned thorough our lives and impart those nuggets here, en famille.

            I’m getting a real appreciation for race car motors from reading your posts Racer, in addition to your sage comments on the Trayvon Martin case.

            One example of students’ posts is the one today telling us that doctors often advise mothers to bring a pacifier to help babies suck through the landing approach.

            Actually, one of the best comforts, emotionlly and physically, is a mother’s breast filled with milk, but not every mother has that available to her child – and I did not want to offer this in my earlier post, concerned that it might raise discussions unbecoming to our role here.

            So, to explain the basis for my comments re ear pain, I contrast your two flights with well over the thousand flights I took during my career in commercial aviation, including a surprising number in which the aircraft were completely unpressurized and, with full impact of added or reduced pressure on eardrums.

            One of my jobs was producing the aerial and ground photography of all versions of our aircraft, which we had to repeat every time a new paint scheme was presented by the ad agency, and every time we bought a new line of jets.

            I never asked my crew to do anything I woudn’t do, so I was always present. During my time we filmed the DC-3 (antique) through the DC-8 jumbo jets. For aerial photography the main cabin door was removed from the “chase plane” (the ship with the cameras) and the chase plane (usually an out-of-time DC-7, in later years) was painted grey with water-soluble paint, lest the passengers at the airport spot a doorless aircraft in the vicinity – with our name on it. (lousy for the image.)

            Windows were removed for the still cameramen. A 35mm motion picture camera was mounted on an O’Connor HiHat, bolted to the floor, with a secure multi-strap harness bolted to the floor behind it, to strap the camera operator in. The lens was held a fraction in back of the open doorway so it would not be ripped off by airspeed.

            Other chase planes were borrowed from the Coast Guard, with the same camera mounting and cameraman harness protection, located in the bay of the C-130.

            Obviously, under those circumstances, with all those open apertures, the aircraft could not be pressurized. We flew no higher than 18,000 ft. and could suck oxygen, when needed, from tubes plugged into a ceiling ridge throughout the chase plane.

            I can tell from your posts, Racer, that you would have loved this job.

            But not if you were a kid, because children’s swallowing mechanism are less developed than ours, and because children’s ears are often congested, narrowing the ear channel.

            On your two flights, the aicraft were probably pressurized around 5,000 ft,. and with a gradual descent (depends on the airport and weather if a steep landing is needed – unusual for passenger aircraft) the increased pressure was not noticed by the kids at all – and their ear canals were in tip-top shape to start with.)

            I personally know the pain involved because I also trained in SCUBA (caps not to emphasize; that’s how it’s spelled) with advance training in rough-water entries and exits every week for a year with an Army divemaster (I have no idea why the Army needed a divemaster, but I am a certified diver with an Army certificate). On only one weekend was the Pacific too roiled to dive. I took this training because, unfortunately, aircraft do crash in the ocean (as ours did).

            In diving the pressure on your eardrums increases rapidly as you descend and one of your first lessons is how to equalize. (Children, of course, don’t get this training.) I found I came into this job, with a minor physical defect, however, because my left ear canal is scarred by carbolic acid used by MDs when I was a child (illegal in the US)so I have less flexibility in that ear canal. And I noticed that if I had any congestion – say from a slight cold – that aircraft landings were painful until I rigorously equalized that ear. So I had the benefit from my dive training.

            I fully agree with you that the child could have been crying for any number of reasons, and that the child should NEVER have been struck. Further, I believe that all adults should understand that there are times that flying is painful to children’s ears and adults ought to give kids speciall compassion at that time. The pain will cease on landing.

            So, in this case, Racer,
            can we agree to agree?

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:18 am

            We can agree as long as I understand that the mother of this child did nothing intentionally that would be endangerment.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 18, 2013 at 1:40 am

            @Racer

            Racer, I hope you do understand that nobody was accusing the MOTHER of any harm to the child. It’s obvious that this was a case of cruelty and child endangerment by the SLAPPER – not only the potential injury to the child and extremely limited medical care in-flight, but the actual intense pain caused to the child.

            My complaint was to the slapper’s physical assault AND the airline’s responsibility to have the asaulting adult met on landing by airport police. As was reported later, he was thusly taken into custody.

            It was not for racial slurs, reprehesible though they were. It was for assaulting the child.

            Is there something wrong in addressing the CRIMINAL ACTIONS that stem from racist acts, or are we supposed to ONLY address the racial prejudice displayed? Something wrong in aaying the airline had its responsibility stemming from this act? Which, we found out later, they met.

            If we had all heard the NEN call with Zimmerman saying “fucking coons”, but Zimmerman had NOT exited his vehicle, had NOT tracked down Trayvon, had NOT confronted and restrained Trayvon, had NOT pumped a 9mm hollow-point bullet into Trayvon’s beating heart – would we all be here today because of Zimmerman’s racial slur?

            We are here because a beautiful young man, much loved, with great potetial in this world, was MURDERED.

            Again, is there something wrong in addressing the CRIMINAL ACTIONS that stem from racist acts, or are we supposed to ONLY address the racial prejudice displayed?

            I say both are significant.

          • cielo62 says:
            February 22, 2013 at 8:47 pm

            racerrodig~ be careful! Even though I agree with you 100% about why the baby was crying, the fact remains the guy was drunk, slapped a baby and used a racial slur. I wondered about his (the drunk guy) due process, but the story itself incites people emotionally so we probably won’t hear about that for awhile.

      • Looolooo says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:48 am

        @onlyiamunitron…………maybe the air marshall on board was Osterman, and since the kid was just another fuqing coon, who probably threatend to kill him, then bashed the man’s head on the seat in front of him, so he figured the man slapped the lil thug in self defense. Therefore the man was standing his ground, and there was no evidence to the contrary.

        Reply
      • Mary Davis says:
        February 17, 2013 at 12:04 pm

        Kid? Please, in my opinion a 19 month old is a baby. WTF is wrong with everybody. Crying because of ear pressure, come on folks. Babies cry because that’s what babies do. I can’t believe this story. WTF is this world coming to.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:54 pm

          Exactly !! and I think trons just a troll. I thought he got booted before.

          Reply
          • cielo62 says:
            February 22, 2013 at 8:55 pm

            racerrodig~ unit ron is not one of my favorite posters, but he’s never been banned. He’s left voluntarily several times after being called out on some divisive and unsubstantiated stuff, but never banned.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 22, 2013 at 11:40 pm

            Because of some comments past and present I’ll just hit Ignore and Delete.

      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm

        Mary Davis, babies cry all the time but babies often cry on planes because they can’t clear their ears. It’s quite painful. Many people chew gum to avoid this or take sinus meds. Doctors advise parents to give their babies pacifiers to suck and so on to help them with the pressure change.

        Reply
      • mountainmanpat says:
        February 20, 2013 at 7:46 am

        Pmom

        I used to work for Douglas….McDonnell Douglas at the time….building DC 9’s 10’s and F4’s in Torrance….193rd and Normandy……late 70’s

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 20, 2013 at 8:03 am

          .@MtnManPat –

          Know the territory well, my friend.

          Used to keep a DC-8 mock-up at that plant, full interior, that we trucked up (in sections) to the studios in Hollywood, if they weren’t filming in a real aircraft at LAX (at night, on layover. Put blue-tinted cell on the windows and blasted “daylight” in the wndows by studio lights outside.)

          But the mock-up on stage was so much more convenient, and safer, than having 300 people and 60 trucks out by the hangars. As you’ll recall, those nights by the ocean were plenty damp and chilly, too. Brrrrrr!

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 20, 2013 at 8:20 am

            Yeah I remember those nights……worked swing & graveyard while I was there…..Lived in the OC then……It was funny leaving at night as train tracks blocked one of the exits……there would be a train sitting there stopped…..with boxcars from Northrup…one after the other…..all 747 parts being shipped to Boeing in Seattle…

            Worked Hughes GSG in Fullerton too….hear that place is now a shopping center…..lived in Norco then.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 20, 2013 at 8:38 am

            @MMPat –

            Ah yes, all that commuting.

            And gas was $1.12 a gallon …

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 20, 2013 at 8:42 am

            PMom

            U familiar with Kittyhawk Aviation at the Chino AP?

            Did side jobs for them making replacement parts for old warbirds.

            Flo’s Diner?

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 20, 2013 at 8:55 am

            @MMPat.

            No, Chino’s a little far afield for me. Knew it in the old horse ranch days; got dragged by one — never went back. All housing developments and foreclosures today …

    • Jun says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:46 am

      Did security or someone knock the 60 year old guy out?

      If someone knocked that old fool out I guarantee you the city would give him/her a medal for bravery

      I cant stand when kid’s cry either but there’s no reason to strike a bloodclot baby like that

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:02 am

        @Jun

        Did security or someone knock the 60 year old guy out?

        He was arrested for simple assault.

        Reply
      • Mary Davis says:
        February 17, 2013 at 12:25 pm

        @ PirahaMom. “This is not a racial issue”. He called the baby a n word. What do you call that? Thank God it was not my baby he slapped. I would have tore the whole plane up. This is pathetic,

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:52 pm

          I commented to PMom on that. Not racial…huh. I’d have given the guy his 1st skydiving lesson……..sans chute.

          Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 17, 2013 at 6:39 pm

          @Mary Davis,

          If the assailant had only yelled, “Shut that N-baby up!” that would be a racial issue.

          Because the baby was physically assaulted it becomes an assault upon and endangerment of
          the child, plus an air safety issue. You can’t have brawling on aircraft in-flight. My understanding is that the N-word was used after the child was slapped.

          If the assailant had yelled the N-word without striking or physically menacing the child, and a brawl erupted among passengers at that point, this becomes an air safety issue.

          I do not have the details of the incident, but was sure happy to read the post later, reporting that the assailant was arrested on landing.

          The physical safety of the child, the mother, the passengers and the crew are foremost while flying.

          Many incidents discussed on this blog are what one might call “dual transgressions.” If a stranger on an aircraft calls me the “N-word” in-flight, I have no legal action against him.

          If the airline denies me passage because I am an “N” I have a legal complaint against the airline.

          If a passenger assaults me and also calls me the “N-word” then the passenger has broken the law – and I am entitled to have the air crew intercede on my behalf (and on behalf of public safety) by making their best attempt at physically protecting me and by securing law enforcement intercession upon landing.

          If the air crew did not, my attorney would pursue this issue in court.

          We all know racism exists. Racist thoughts, whether we like it or not, are protected in the US by the First Amendment. But physical assault – whether racially motivated or not – is offered no protection.

          That is the point I am making.

          I take a special interest in this case because my career in commercial aviation intersected with the integration of Blacks into flight crews. I can recall our hiring of our first Black pilot in the late ’60s and the anxious discussion among top management about “what to call him” because this was news. They were horrified when I spoke up and said, “Black.”

          “Oh, we can’t say that!” was the response. (I don’t know what they had in mind. “Colored?” “Negro?” African-American was not used at that time.) I was the youngest member of the team, by about 20 years, so was considered a rebel against tradition. I also knew that they were trying to be respectful, and accurate, and were trying to wrap their minds about how best to address this new issue of defining race. And yes, a BLACK pilot WAS news!

          So when they said “Oh, we can’t say ‘Black’ ” I answered, “Sure we can. I asked him.”

          End of the discussion.

          I

          Reply
          • cielo62 says:
            February 22, 2013 at 9:39 pm

            PiranhaMom~ “Asking someone what their comfort level is with what words..”. WHAT A CONCEPT! Has ANYONE ever understood the importance of COMMUNICATION in civilized society?

      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm

        I’m glad he was arrested. Unbelievable he would do that to a child.

        Reply
      • Mary Davis says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:58 pm

        @ Everyone. I just had to take a three mile walk to clear my head and anger. I apologize for my outburst earlier about the baby being slapped and called the n-word. I am sensitive when it comes to babies, little children, teens, and even young adults. Maybe it’s because I have a son myself. @PiranhaMon. I especially apologize to you. I have been reading this blog long enough to recognize your intent when you post and comment. I know you didn’t mean any harm in your comment. Please accept my apology.

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 17, 2013 at 11:41 pm

          @Mary Davis,

          You never, never need apologize for pouring your heart out, Mary, as many of us do on occasion, and if there is a misunderstanding among us, we have the opportunity to explain ourselves. The imperfect art of commnication known as blogging limits us by not including body language and facial expression.

          I replied to you earlier without realizing you had posted again, so now I apologize for what must seem to you as a very cold heart. I know
          we are caring minds together, as we hate the actions hurtful to this child.

          I am aware that as a “peach colored person” (“white” but not albino) I could not ever have the acute sensitivity to racism as one who experienced it from the dawning years of childhood. And in this case, what I offered was “an acute sensitivity” to the discomfort of air travel (and the responsibiity of the airline) – especially for children, because aviation was my life for 17 years.

          When I first posted on this subject, I thought of reporting to you an incident early in my career, but reconsidered when I saw how long my response was. But I will do so now.

          I must first tell you that I became aware (and puzzled) by prejudice – basically class prejudice – around the age of five. It was not white-on-black prejudice because I had never seen a Black person although I knew humans came in different hues – I went to school with embassy childen, and I was a voracious reader of The National Geographic as soon as I could turn the pages.

          Then one year (around age 7) two Black children appeared in class – Phyllis and her younger sister. I have no idea where they were from, but they were not embassy kids who were often kept together as siblings despite their ages, because it was easiest on the kids. All I can tell you is that we were smitten by the Price children, because they seemed so exotic to us and every one of us competed to be their BFFs. And then one day, they were gone … and we were left with memories of how burnished and exotic they seemed, with their ebony skin and shy smiles. We had loved and admired them, and then they were gone.

          Flash forward more than a decade, and I was living in America, but in California seeing at a geographic distance day-to-day racial conflict.

          In my own life, the only racist speech was by my very old, very wealthy great grand-mother-in-law, who openly disrespected Negroes (but called them only by the proper name of the day) but who doted on, and who was treated with great devotion by, her companion (an employee, but a trusted one) who was evidently and vividly, a Black woman.

          When I once timidly pointed out the incongruity of this, there was the fierce response by Mrs. Marshall (grandmother’s companion) that I was wrong — because she was “an Ethiopian.”

          I did not bring up the subject again, but it stuck with me. A few years later, on a flight (in the days when there was some pleasure, even luxury, to air travel and it was all First Class) I was seated next to a Black traveler, and because he struck me as a man of considerable compassion, (and was, he told me, a pastor) I unburdened my soul.

          How could I oppose what I knew to be outright prejudice, in the face of this family relationship, and its “denial” of prejudice?

          His response surprised me. That prejudice was wrong, yes, but disrespecting a much older person who had obviously lived through close to 90 years of racially prejudiced “immersion” would also be “a wrong.”

          Great grandmother-in-law and her companion had obviously struck a narrative that made their lives together liveable and they needed each other. (There were two servants in the home, who were white. Both were appropriatelu deferental to Mrs. Marshall in consideration of her age and the relationship.)

          Likely it had been Mrs. Marshall’s skill, but no one knows What was important in this case, the pastor told me, was to honor BOTH older women, as I was doing, show compassion, and not attack.

          But there were two other issues he wanted me to consider in earnest: (1) do not waste energy in trying to change older lives that do not impact others, and (2) use all that energy, all you can muster and more, to bring racial justice as the NORM to young people – because young people can change the world.

          In those days, aircraft were slower, and you could not even fly nonstop coast-to-coast. There had to be a refueling stop mid-country. Seats were wider and “pitch” – distance between your seat and the one in front, was greater and much more comfortable.

          There was time for conversation, and you could on occasion find yourself with a traveling companion for a few hours with wit, or a compelling life story, or in this case, with what struck me as deep compassion, understanding, and a solution to my concerns that was surprising in its clarity and simplicity.

          The passenger in seat 6A was Dr. King.

          .

          Reply
      • FactsFirst says:
        February 18, 2013 at 1:44 pm

        @PiranhaMom I just read your 2/17/2013 11:41pm and I just wanted to say, what a powerful yet BEAUTIFUL STORY my sistah… @Mary I feel you too my sistah… Most of the time I can’t comment because I wear my heart on my sleeve (fingertips) and somtimes I do let my emotions get the best of me… Happens to the best of us…

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 8:46 pm

          @Facts First,

          Thank you, dear friend. I was so fortunate to have this spiritual mentor, even if it was for a few hours. He spoke with clarity. He had an elegantly simple solution to this family quandary – and provided instruction that would last a lifetime. I was blessed.

          And yes, all the childen in later generations are “colorblind” (not optically, though) and we have a multi-racial family with American Indian and Nepali members – and yes, the childen ARE “all things bright and beautiful!” So the blessings continue.

          It is good now to see the reports that the passengers on that flight came to the mother and child’s support, that there is a solid, articulate witness, and that the prosecution has been launched. And that this racist, drunkard idiot was fired from his job. This is the kind of OBJECT LESSON that gets around.

          Also, I see that the baby’s crying started on descent, as I expected. This monster couldn’t give this child a few minutes’ patience??? Well, now he is learning his lesson!

          For anyone interested in learning how to equalize your ears during descent, it’s simple.
          As soon as you feel pain, swallow, or wiggle your jaws – if the pain continues in one or both ears:

          1) Close mouth;
          2) Pinch nostrils together, shutting off your ability to inhale/exhale;
          3) Try hard to exhale out your pinched nose (one good breath). You can’t do it, so your breath has to go simewhere. Your ears will instantly pop – one or both ears;
          4) Take fingers off nose, breathe normally.
          5) If the pressure builds up again and you feel pain, just repeat the procedure. It is SO simple.

          Note — you can try this at your computer right now – most people have an eardrum that is blocked, but it causes no pain because there is no pressure build-up. Just squeeze, attempt to blow out through your nose, ear “pops” if blocked, release nose and breathe normally.

          Don’t even have to buy a ticket and take that lo-o-o-ong drive to the airport!

          Thank you again, FactsFirst. Your kind message is embedded in my heart.

          Reply
      • FactsFirst says:
        February 18, 2013 at 2:04 pm

        I agree with Mary that this is a racial issue because this guy Hundley said “SHUT THAT N*GGER BABY UP” TWICE before he slapped the baby… ABC NEWS: “Bennett, who was seated in row 28 alongside Hundley, told FBI agents that she tried to get her son to stop crying when Hundley “told her to shut that [‘N word’] baby up. I said, ‘What did you just say?'” Bennett said. “And he was so drunk that he fell onto my face, and his mouth moved over to my ear and he said it, just directly into my ear.” The 33-year-old mother then says Hundley slapped her son in the face.. “When I had looked at Jonah’s face, he had, his eye was swollen…and it was bleeding,” Bennett said. “I was just scared to death.” That’s when fellow travelers stepped in…

        http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/executive-charged-slapping-toddler-plane-loses-job/story?id=18529437

        Reply
    • FactsFirst says:
      February 17, 2013 at 10:45 am

      Yes, and it took me a while to even stomach speaking on it too… IMHO, every since President Obama was elected the racists started coming outta the woodwork… They didn’t hide behind sheets anymore, they hid behind computer monitors.. So when GZ murdered Trayvon and people from all walks of life protested the injustice, the police corruption and GZ not being arrested it was like pouring salt in a big ass open womb for them.. They couldn’t hold it in any longer… The last thing they wanted to see after a black president was a bunch of blacks and “N-Lovers” protesting… It just brings back bad memories for them… They want us to pretend racism is a thing of the past while they slap babies and call them the “n word” on airplanes… All I know is, “Lord please don’t ever let that happen to my child and if it does, Lord watch over the racist who does that because I’d run thew hell with gasoline draws on, or slide down a razor blade in to an alcohol river for my babies”…. just my thoughts…

      Reply
      • Deborah Garner Moore says:
        February 17, 2013 at 11:04 am

        FactsFirst & Lady St. Claire: I read this despicable story! Yes, these racists have come out of the woodwork since President Obama became President became President and they are revealing their feelings in full force! The horror! That black boy became President not only once, but TWICE?? OMG!

        Good thing it wasn’t my baby daughter who was crying on that plane, because she did do that many years ago when she was a baby in 85. I had to take a warm towel and place it by her ears because that baby was probably feeling some pain in that area. If that old racist fool had done that to my baby! He would have been tossed out of the plane head first by my husband!

        Reply
      • Mary Davis says:
        February 17, 2013 at 12:36 pm

        @ PirahaMom. I very seldom post, (just had to this time) but why did you say “This is not a racial issue” It is clearly child abuse, but at the same time IMO it is also clearly very racist. At this point I just don’t know how to interpret your comment.

        Reply
      • Mary Davis says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

        @FactsFirst. When I heard this it made me so angry. Seems like this doesn’t phase some people. My mother is two years away from 100 years old. The stories I’ve hear about what my mother and her parents went through living with racism is astounding. Iv’e had to live through enough of it myself, being 63 years old. Enough of this racist bull. Thank God my grandchildren will never have to live through that crap. I will not be reading this on YouTube.

        Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 17, 2013 at 9:33 pm

        It is a racist issue because I am sure he would not have DARED to hit a WHITE baby. At most he might have asked the mother to keep it quiet, as I have seen numerous people do when babies or toddlers were making too much noise on a plane.

        The issue is racist when someone thinks they are entitled to discipline someone else’s child because it is a member of an underclass he has rights over.

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 17, 2013 at 11:43 pm

        Hitting! a stranger’s baby and justifying by saying “Shut that nigger baby up!” Racist! Bonkers!

        And now unemployed, according to Yahoo News. (I’m sorry I can’t find the link)

        Reply
      • FactsFirst says:
        February 18, 2013 at 2:15 pm

        This racist hurled the racial slur twice before slapping the baby… IMO, he should be charged with a hate crime too.. Here’s video for those who haven’t seen it…

        http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/executive-charged-slapping-toddler-plane-loses-job/story?id=18529437

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 18, 2013 at 2:21 pm

          Hmmmmmm ?? Lets look at this and use some Team Trayvon Common Sense.

          Hundley uses the “N” word Fogen used the “C” word
          Fogen called Trayvon an asshole

          Hundley slapped a baby Fogen murdered his victim

          Hundley fired Fogen claims he was mugged
          now unemployed

          Fogen Charged by the
          Feds What’s next here gang

          Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 18, 2013 at 2:39 pm

          I would place a bet that had the mother been Black, that lunatic would have minded his own business. Because the mother is White, he no doubt felt that she would not be offended and also give him the right to act like slave master.

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 19, 2013 at 9:13 am

          Hundley’s picture has been posted all over the internet, so there’s hardly a person, worth knowing, who doesn’t know what he looks like and stands for. Thus, anyone seen consorting with Hundley will be suspected of being a racists themselves, meaning he’s going to have a very hard time finding work. Most companies don’t want to be known for having a racist on staff. Worse, anyone with a cell phone can take his picture and/or video of any place where he gets hired. The company faces the prospect of having the video of their racist hire go viral. That would be a terrible thing for the company. Unless he’s working a compost heap.

          Reply
  19. Malisha says:
    February 17, 2013 at 12:31 am

    Think of this: Fogen’s story makes him look like a real fool, an incompetent boob, a scairdey-cat, a wuss, a weak little wishy-washy punk, and a total idiot. Why? You’re out there on your own without back-up in the area where you JUST SPOTTED A REAL SUSPICIOUS GUY and you’re clopp-clopping around without your gun out ready for action. THEN you get dropped with one single punch and totally dominated like a b1tch for almost a full minute while all you can do is yell “help me help me” as if you’re not a man. Where, damnit, are all your Y Chromosomes? Unmanned a little bit, huh? Wow!

    Yeah, this story is the story of a little pissy wuss, isn’t it?

    The reason I thought about this is that I turned on the TV to try to find something non-irritating to watch, and the first thing I saw was a woman in evening wear at a glitzy bar and then she hears a shot fired and immediately pulls a pistol out of her purse and hops OFF the bar stool and strides toward the sound with her gun drawn, ahead of her in that two-handed “ready for anything” position, prepared to take down the criminal.

    A woman in a cute little cocktail dress, size 6.

    And I realized, “Fogen’s story of how this all went down is not only a lie, it’s an insult to everybody’s intelligence.” We all know that a crime-obsessed wannabe like Fogen had his gun drawn early on while he stalked around that night. He did not get surprised and dropped with a sucker-punch. He said that afterwards to cover the fact that when he realized Trayvon Martin wasn’t gonna play his ‘you’re the good guy and I’m the thug-criminal-coon’ game, he taught him his lesson by killing him. It’s this close to UNDENIABLE; it’s certainly closer than the distance of a reasonable doubt.

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:18 am

      “Think of this: Fogen’s story makes him look like a real fool, an incompetent boob, a scairdey-cat, a wuss, a weak little wishy-washy punk, and a total idiot.”

      Malisha….will you please stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think of FogenPhoolesPhantasticalPhoolishPhabricatedPhantasies.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:23 am

        It’s interesting, isn’t it, how fearful people run around with guns, trying to look like bigshots and messing stuff up. Feckless Fogen.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 1:38 am

          When you think about the crap this group has said, the contradictions and the outright lies, Freudian slips and such, I’m stunned that they actually think a jury, even a silly jury will buy any of that. Yeeeeesh !

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:54 am

        Racer, I think it’s quite possible that a jury might give Fogen some benefit of the doubt and find him guilty of manslaughter instead of M2, but the forensics and flakey timeline won’t allow a not guilty verdict or a mistrial unless some nightmare Treestumper style jury slips through or the prosecution totally blows their case. Judge Nelson runs a tight ship and she seems pretty immune to BS.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm

          When the phone records are released I have 100 % confidence you’ll retract the M2 doubt, do an Irish Jig and say Yes, Yes,
          Yes !! Picture Wesley Snipes in “Major League” when he learns he made the team….Trust Me !!

          Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm

        Racerrodig, sorry, I gave up “really saying it” for Lent.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:23 pm

        Fogen could get manslaughter in a plea deal but in all honesty, Fogenhats can’t put on any “decent American” act with his brother or father, without opening a vast amount of doors

        Fogenhats tries that, and we have all seen his history, it will show he is more than capable of doing such things, and I would not doubt the main reason he never truly got in trouble was because his dad had connections with law enforcement

        I would not doubt if Pops is going to have all his cases that he watched over looked at again, or anything he handled, because it is clearly an attempt to pervert justice

        I feel that the killing was depraved and showed a disregard for human life

        He stalked and terrorized this kid

        The kid was pleading for mercy and out of fear

        Fogenhats himself when he was first showed that tape, stated “it does not sound like me”

        Because it sounds like a kid screaming… put it side by side with Fogenhats’ voice exemplars and his NEN call… it is a teenage or youthful voice screaming for help

        Even though Junior keeps trying to taint the jury with his lies, once trial comes, the jury will hear the forensic evidence, and it is fairly safe to say the kid never even touched or attacked the defendant at all, and the defendant was the only party red handed with blood on his hands as Fogenhats’ hands were the only party with blood all over them

        They can even do science experiments in court and recreate Fogenhats’ bleeding from his minor wounds, to show he was upright the whole time due to gravity, hence the bleeding all flowing toward his neck and his chin when he bent his head forward 45 degrees

        Anyone can put two and two together, which is why it is an old phrase to say “being caught redhanded”

        Fogenhats stalked and pursued this kid, as the kid tried to run away from him, and when fogenhats caught the kid, he confronted, threatened and attacked the kid, and then killed him, then staged his self defense claim

        As he said himself, he was running out of time so he had to make up stuff on the spot

        Fogenhats was the only party redhanded so it is safe to conclude he caused the injuries himself

        Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:56 am

      It is pretty blatantly obvious what happened

      You gotta know Fogenhats, based on his history is a manipulative bully

      He wants to get away with doing something bad

      Hence the story he concocted and staged and he then got his father and brother to go around lying for him

      If you look at Junior and the father and Fogenhats, they are high siddity and think they are actually fooling you with their lies and nonsense

      The most obvious being the scream tape

      It is obviously not Fogenhats screaming, because it does not sound like him, and in fact, 4 of the witnesses have described it as a kid screaming, and it sounds like a kid screaming

      Fogenhats came up with that story because he knows the self defense law so he wanted to come across as helpless as possible

      too bad his history says the opposite, and his phone call shows the exact opposite, and the forensics show the exact opposite

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:01 pm

        Yep……it must really suck to be FogenPhoole about now..it’s exactly
        3:01PM 2/17/2013……and it’s going to get worse

        Reply
    • Cercando Luce says:
      February 17, 2013 at 10:28 am

      I wonder if the “immunity hearing” has anything to do with Foge’s desire to bring his boys down with him. (“Please give me immunity from prosecution, and I’ll give you the names of the REAL bad guys,” i.e.)

      Reply
  20. kllypyn says:
    February 16, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    Hi everyone i just had .a thought.What if trayvon saw a criminal act going on only he didn’t know w\hat he saw he didn’t give it much it thought as he walked home. the people he saw might have thought he knew what they were doing and decided to keep him quiet permanently. but first they interrogated him to see what he knew. he said he didn’t know but they killed him anyway.

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:16 pm

      Here’s a thought based on an incident my dad had when he was a cop. He stopped a guy in the only alley in town behind a store and it was evident he was going to break in. (the bolt cutters are always a dead giveaway)

      Dad had his Maglight in his hand and this clown took a swing at my dad who clocked him upside the head with his Maglight, basically the same thing FogenPhoole had. What the hell did FogenPhoole do with his Tactical light all that time?? IIRC he had it in his hand when the cops showed up and the residents started to come out.

      However, if Black Dynamite Slim did as Fogen states, one swing of his light would have knocked Trayvon out.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:56 pm

        You can do plenty of damage with a set of keys too.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 1:28 am

          Yes you can…But it hit me, Fogen claims to get smacked and I don’t remember him ever saying anything to the effect that he ever fought back. If I had anything in my hand that had bulk, you can be damn sure I’m swinging first, and you better duck, ‘cuz it will be my “…for the fences..” swing.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:47 am

        It just makes sense to me that you don’t bring guns to a fistfight. I don’t understand a man who basically pursues, initiates a confrontation because he neglects to have a normal conversation that could have answered all his questions, then pulls a gun early on when he has fists and and maglight (I used to keep one beside my bed for my version of protection) and all around, creates a deadly situation where there didn’t have to be one. With cops on the way, no less! He said he didn’t think Trayvon was armed and he wasn’t afraid of him.

        Actually, I hope Trayvon did clean Fogen’s clock for him before he got killed because Fogen deserved it, though the clumsy fool could have just as easily run into a tree or fallen on his face.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:01 am

        Fogen had no defensive marks on his arms. Serino questioned him about that and never got a good answer, if I recollect correctly. So the story keeps circling back to how much, if any, of Fogen’s story is the truth?

        Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 17, 2013 at 8:52 am

        He never says he fought back in any manner, Racer. He expects it to be believed that he just laid there and took the whole punching, bashing, smothering beating without even so much a grabbing Trayvon’s wrists, so he could breathe.

        IIRC – the tactical flashlight was part of the debris field south of Trayvon’s body, which in itself is a whole ‘nother issue. How did it get there, based on the illogical logistics of fogen’s stories?Did he do the whole stumble, fumble, swimming thing, after being punched, with a maglite in his hand – but never swung it (as you said any reasonable person would do)? He’s “pushing” Trayvon away from him, but never hits him with the light, and …. Hell, I don’t even remember how he accounts for the distance of the end of the stumble -stagger thing to Trayvon’s body. Did he EVER account for it?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 17, 2013 at 6:28 pm

          Yeah, all the ex bar bouncer can do is stand there like a potted palm and take punches. And the Chief of Police found that a credible story? The town needs to sue him for fraud to recover his salary!

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:53 am

            Most guys get into a few tiffs as kids on the school ground and such. I got picked on all the time because dad was a “pig” and in the 60′ that wasn’t the least bit cool.

            I learned to inflict serious pain and leave no marks and never have to throw a punch after awhile. But before I learned any of this, and a punch was thrown, I always tried to deflect, boob, weave, duck and return fire. Many times I didn’t remember most of the fight and had to take the word of my friends of what I actually did. It’s called “Tunnel Vision”

            My son and I play paintball in “Combat Scenarios” It’s not life and death but when we get into a serious “fire fight” it’s the same thing……survival…..cover and return fire……Damn Fogen….it is impossible not to try and survive you stupid shit !!!!!

            However, when confronted in any situation the body goes into survival mode automatically. Even in a non stress work environment, if something gets loose and into the air, you duck and / or get your hands and arms up to avoid getting hit, You can’t even fight it !! Like sneezing, your brain automatically closes your eyes to avoid the spray.

            And we’re to believe FogenPhoole just laid there and took a whooping……Where’s the Deed to that bridge I have for sale ??

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 18, 2013 at 10:58 am

            You got it, GZ is sprouting Aggravated Catastrophic Stupidity and we’re supposed to swallow it.

            Is it just me? Or does anyone else have this feeling that, no one is going to be able to just lay there immobile, while hand after hand comes flying towards your face? Chief Lee and Wolfinger heard that story and believed it??? They both need to be put in jail, if they can’t see the stupidity of such a claim they’ve been collecting their salaries under false pretenses.

        • racerrodig says:
          February 18, 2013 at 12:41 am

          I don’t remember seeing anything that says how it got where it was found. 50 million words later and nothing. Did he throw it at Trayvon ?

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 18, 2013 at 1:58 am

            @Racer,

            Zimmerman only had two hands. To grab Trayon with one (which I think came first, with the dominant hand)then get the gun out of his holster, he had no third hand for the tactical flashlight.

            He discarded it in the nearby “debris field.”
            I doubt he had the wrist strap slipped over his
            hand, but was carrying it instead. I don’t know where GZ’s prints are on the light, nor if blood & DNA is on it, but I think not.

      • Dave says:
        February 17, 2013 at 8:53 am

        Racerrodig, the killer’s flashlight is only about 6 inches long and powered by 3 AAA or 3AA batteries. Your dad’s Maglite was probably one of those big truncheon-like things powered by 3 or 4 D cells. I haven’t seen a cop with one of those in many years. I think most departments banned them because too many “suspects” were getting beaten to death with them. They’ve been replaced by small tactical lights and tasers.

        On the subject of tactical flashlights, I’ve been playing around with a theory inspired by this short video that shows a widely taught flashlight tactic:

        Suppose that the killer confronts Trayvon with the tactical flashlight held as Sheriff Jim demonstrates (about 8 inches to the left and forward of his own face) and suddenly “lights up” Trayvon’s face. Suddenly blinded, Trayvon (unlike the Deadly Cameraman in the video) instinctively swings his right hand in the general direction of the offending light. The killer is taken by surprise as his own fist, holding the heavy flashlight is driven into his own face, accounting for the bloody nose. I don’t think it would have required a great deal of force or precise aim to accomplish this–just a reasonably hard blow to the (clothed) wrist or forearm.

        Any thoughts?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 17, 2013 at 7:09 pm

          Except that Trayvon had no combat or self defense training at all, so he was just a helpless kid being confronted by a frightening situation that he did not understand at all. He was in a total state of abject confusion with no defensive reflexes of any offensive utility. He is immediately over matched and has never had to deal with fear induced by threat. On top of which, his demeanor is not to fight.

          So that kinda rules out all these clever things he could have, would have or should have done. It was all he could do to ask “why are you following me for?” Which was met with unimaginable violence!

          Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 18, 2013 at 1:03 am

          Very good point, Trayvon may have forced the light into Fogens nose better yet and still possible, what if Fogen had the light taken from him by a sudden move by Trayvon. Trayvon could have hit the light, forced it into Fogen’s nose and he dropped it.

          Trayvon may have been knocked down or partway down and picked the light up and whacked Fogen on the head with it. Those cuts look like that could have been acquired by a sharp blow from a hard object……’cuz they didn’t come from any concrete.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:42 pm

        It’s feasible that Fogen attempted to hit Trayvon with the flashlight, but does it end up where Fogen claims he was sucker-punched?

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 2:57 pm

          Maybe, but I’d file that under

          He circled my car
          He was pounding my head on the cement
          He came out of nowhere
          My head almost exploded
          I was almost unconscious
          I forgot THE gun
          He was on top

          and all the other lies. If he took a swing at Trayvon with the light, I think he’d have said so and made a big deal out of it AND since Trayvon did not swing at FogenPhoole, he isn’t smart enough to concoct a believable story.

          Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:40 pm

        I didn’t suggest that the killer struck Trayvon with the flashlight. I suggested that he may have shone this super-bright, blinding light directly into Trayvon’s eyes and that Trayvon instinctively tried to knock it away and incidentally drove it into the killer’s face.

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 17, 2013 at 8:03 pm

        @ Dave
        I think if that flashlight scenario transpired, Trayvon raised his hand to protect his face (like the guy in the video), and his left hand ring finger was cut, which hurt like hell.

        Please note, the video credits the NRA. Perhaps Fogen watched it.

        Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 17, 2013 at 4:35 am

      @kllypyn, I thought that this could have been a possibility as well and, I mentioned it here a couple of months ago. Trayvon could have very well seen the real suspicious *thugs* in the act of thieving from one of the neighbors who they knew wouldn’t be at home that night.

      What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.

      Before all is said and done in this case, there will be other people implicated in this murder as well as using the NW program as a cover for *illegal* goings on at R@TL. it’s very obvious that witness 11 knows a *LOT* more than she is telling. her knowledge of this murder is very telling by her 911 call.

      Reply
      • MelRoy says:
        February 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm

        A long time ago when I was young I was walking at night to my apartment from the car, which was parked about a block away. I noticed a man was following me, and I started to run, and so did he. I instinctively felt he was catching up to me, so I stopped running and turned around and punched him in the face. Unlucky for him, I was clutching my car keys between my knuckles, and I put his eye out.

        Well, this guy staggered off and I ran indoors and called the cops, and they caught him. And surprise, surprise, the guy had raped two women in my neighborhood.

        I stood my ground, and was very lucky I wasn’t raped (or worse). You don’t stop to think (or at least I didn’t). You try to defend yourself.

        Trayvon was being chased by a strange man at night, as I was…a long time ago.
        RIP

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 2:38 pm

          Survival mode takes over but in FogenPhooles case “The truth never changes…….but the lie always morphs”

          I’ll take “Morphing Preposterous Lies” for $5,000.00 Alex.

          Reply
  21. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    ps I Know Snakes are not slimey but lovely an smooth an nice to touch.

    Reply
  22. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    racerrodig says:

    February 16, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    “Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’”

    Lets be 100% accurate because the FogenPhooles are reading all of this.

    He said his brother was a worthless piece of shit

    @Maybe after the initial media frenzy

    Jr an foggen were not close foggen was estranged from most of his Family.
    Includeong his faux Mother=Auntie
    His Father either his adopted Father or his Uncle or his bio Father if im Senior was shaffting his Sister in Law.
    Both foggen an weeeejrzim are adopted from there Aunt Imean there bio Mother is there Aunt do you follow.?
    Because Ive lost meself somewher in there.
    O K Back on track after the intial media frenzy an talk shows here.
    Magaine an newspapers there .
    Weezze was well an truely bitten by a limelight bug an went on to ham it up that even Miss Piggy would give him a karate chop for.

    I think after being humiliated a few times when confronted with people educated on the facts of the case.
    The time line an other blatent nonsense spewed by his brother.

    He took the time to finaly look at the discovery an facts of the case.
    An whilst he was at it decided to read the transcripts of foggens many many many phone calls from prison the first time before his first bail out.

    Ive read thosr phone conversations an reading or hearing not even between the lines.
    In he an ShelLies non to subltle no one will crack our juvinile code sort of style.

    An the things he said so dissmissive of junior to his bro in law a guy married to his sister is it Ken?
    To him anyway he pledges brotherhood as he never had a REAL big brother
    Between he an SheLie an I dont know how many caught ther code / fill in the blank talk about junior when shellie is basicly saying how weirded out she is by ……….An doesnt know if she has a brother in law or sisterlaw..foggen shellie Q laughter think foggen say yea right or I know right?

    Or a conversation along those lines an with snidey remarks re his sexuallity.
    So when I listened to there nasty exchange I got the impression Junior isa guy whom likes to Drag up probably a full blown cross dresser an If so good for him an goood luck to him if an paps get a shot of him sporting his own pair of paps.
    But he has quite good bone structure could see him makeing a dam handsome woman/
    Hard to tell foggens bonestructure as you cant even see his bones anymore.
    How fat of is foggen ….So fat he cant even see if he has a boner.

    Anyhoo back on track again if weezze has finealy gotten round to reading those jail house calls maybe the penny has dropped as to the depth of his brotheres treachoury.
    Treachoury an depravity an disshonesty are all excellent bedfellows………………………………..
    This nest of vipers will turn on themselfs an start to attack
    Trouble is all snakes look a like an when your attacking something long an slimey it hard to tell if your biteing freind or frenemy or yourself/

    Reply
  23. Looolooo says:
    February 16, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    xy11xy…… Oh, I forgot to say…. Welcome. And I hope you came here because of my invitation earlier this week on YouTube. I’m not known as Looolooo there. But I complimented you on your EXCELLENT videos. I’ve been following you for months now. Keep up the good work, and again…..welcome, so happy you decided to grace us with your wisdom and brilliance. 😀

    Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      February 20, 2013 at 2:21 pm

      Looolooo,

      It’s I who should thank you for inviting me. I’ve learned a great deal from reading the blog and comments.

      Thanks again.

      Reply
      • Deborah Garner Moore says:
        February 20, 2013 at 7:00 pm

        @xy11xy:

        Welcome Xy! I have been a fan for a very long time of your insightful video’s! Let me tell you this: You have a great speaking voice! You should be on television or radio with that voice! You are articulate and well spoken. You have stood up for Trayvon and stayed fast to your convictions.It is wonderful to have you on this blog! Once again WELCOME! Also, my 17 year old son is in love with you! LOL!

        Reply
        • xy11xy says:
          February 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm

          That’s really very nice of you to say!.. Thank you for your support.

          Re your young son..I guess I’ll have to think twice before dropping f-bombs. 😉

          Reply
          • Deborah Garner Moore says:
            February 22, 2013 at 8:45 pm

            @xy11xy:

            LOL! You are so kind! My son is 17! Don’t worry about dropping the ‘F” word. I drop it more than enough around this house when I am angry! LOL! My son states that you are “gorgeous!” ::SMILE:: He loves your videos and so do my daughters and myself. They are thought provoking and insightful. I have been listening to them from day one.

            Today, the Fogen defense got smacked down! They are so desperate at this point. I do not see why the defense needs the addresses of TM’s family and Dee Dee! WHY? So they can “leak” it to the Nuthouse racists bigots? The White Supremacists? Do they want one of the gun nuts to harm her or the family of TM?

            Why did Dee Dee have to give them her Facebook, Myspace and Twitter accounts? You know what they will find there? Childish, teenage writings. I have never seen such nonsense in my life! What are they looking for?? The fact is that Fogen murdered TM, and they cannot erase that fact. They cannot refute the forensic evidence and I have commented several times on this blog about the fake medical evidence! As a Nurse Practitioner who has treated and nursed many patients who sustained head injuries, Fogen’s injuries don’t even come close.

  24. kimmi says:
    February 16, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    I scrolled through, didn’t see Real Time video, so I’m trying now.

    Jr. on Real Time with Bill Maher…

    I watched the video, and Bill was playing softball with Jr.
    A few interesting points…
    Yes it was pretty easy for Jr, not like many thought it would be, but…

    BM-“He (GZ) put himself on watch”
    Jr-“He was asked by…” (Asked by WHO, WHAT???)
    Bill CUTS IN (DARN!!!) and (I think Jr realized what he was saying)
    BM-“He got distracted” (Geez Bill, I wish you would have let Jr finish his sentence!)

    Jr-Brings up the “weather” as a reason for Trayvon being ‘suspicious’
    BM-“That’s why you gotta wear a hoodie” (Go Bill!)
    Jr-“That’s exactly right” (Duh Jr-That went right over the top of your head!!!)

    BM-“Yet he was following Trayvon Martin”
    Jr-Yea, sure, I understand (Jr ADMITS GZ was following Trayvon!)

    Jr-“…slamming your head into the concrete…”
    BM-“We don’t know that”
    BM-“You’re a family memeber”
    BM-“You can’t be objective”

    BM-“Without the guns involved, wouldn’t it of just been a guy who lost a fight?”
    Jr-“I, I, I think, I, I agree, that’s a factor” (Jr ADMITS this too!!)

    So, even though some may think it went very well for Jr, (he didn’t get all frazzled and angry),
    IMO, Bill made some good points and Jr never realized he was admitting to some of it!

    BBL!

    Reply
    • jm says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:11 pm

      kimmi: “Bill made some good points and Jr never realized he was admitting to some of it!”

      I think Bill used charm and wit rather than go on the offensive and he did get some very good points in.

      Wonder if RZ Jr realizes today he was snookered/charmed into agreeing with Maher’s points?

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm

        I doubt Jr noticed it…
        he’s still seeing stars from his ‘future in the industry’
        Yuck!

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:31 pm

        Yes, Jr has already had tweets, that he has a ‘future’ in PR…blech!!!
        One tweet from Jr that I thought was very interesting…

        Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
        .@billmaher I appreciate the invite &constructive dialogue, this is a convo we all must have –

        “**We both want justice and may justice be done.”

        Is he really that blind to the evidence?
        Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’
        He’s probably just ‘cleaning up’ his image, for his possible future in PR, and the following tweets?

        @rzimmermanjr def could have future in PR.
        Retweeted by Robert Zimmerman Jr

        @rzimmermanjr you impressed maher Glad he gave u a fair shot and I thought it was a good segment.
        After all the legal, u have a media future
        Retweeted by Robert Zimmerman Jr

        I’ve also read, some say, he must really want to see GZ locked up, since he won’t ‘shut up,’ so idk?

        Now his latest….
        Yep, now he’s NEVER going to shut up!

        Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
        .@donnabrazile – Professor, UR a class act: consistently taking the high road. It was my honor 2meet you, I’ll work2 heal R USA anyway I can

        One thing for sure, IMO, Jr would have no problem throwing Fogen ‘under the bus’ for his new ‘career’

        Reply
        • jm says:
          February 16, 2013 at 5:38 pm

          kimmi: “One thing for sure, IMO, Jr would have no problem throwing Fogen ‘under the bus’ for his new ‘career’”

          No doubt about it. He is quite full of himself and loves being in the spotlight. RZ kind of distanced himself when Bill Maher said he wasn’t like GZ and was agreeable to that which is contrary to what he had said before.

          Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 7:30 pm

          “Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’”

          Lets be 100% accurate because the FogenPhooles are reading all of this.

          He said his brother was a worthless piece of shit…..

          Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:04 pm

        @racer, tell it like it is and shame the devil because, that is exactly what Fogen said referring to his brother. but then he was referring to himself also because,after all they were cut from the very same mold.

        Reply
      • FactsFirst says:
        February 18, 2013 at 2:47 pm

        Loving how BM “HANDLED” RZ kinda like how Serino “HANDLED” GZ… If the Z’s catch any hint that your not TEAM FORGEN, they shut down and spew all that “THE RACISTS ARE COMING” crap then talk in circles. So one must play their role if they expect to get any truth outta the Z’s… BM did his homework on RZ and he handled that interview the only way he knew he could, the way the Z’s would… GOOD JOB!

        SN:
        Ever notice that Serino chose Baez, the attorney GZ REALLY wanted? I’m inclined to believe Serino chose Baez because he knew in order to beat Forgen, he had to think like Forgen and he needed an attorney who has experience in high profile cases like this.. Serino needed an attorrney who knew all the tricks of the trade, knew how to beat the likes of O’Mara, had defended the likes of forgen (CASEY) AND, who had prolly already spoken to Forgen about the case…. Smart move, Serino… Smart F’n move…

        Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:24 pm

      Yes. He did redeem himself… slightly…

      I don’t get the fawning at the beginning re Dorner being racist because he wanted Fareed to be deported for being brown and having an accent.

      Is Bill saying that it’s possible for people of colour(Dorner) to be racist, yet providing a false example by misrepresenting what Dorner said?

      I have to do too much Jujitsu to figure out what he’s getting at.

      RZjr is a racist snake. He was all calm until Piers challenged him. Then he lashed out in rage at Piers by throwing out the names of black journalists and commentators, Toure heading the lineup, followed by Charles Blow and another person…as if only black journalists support the Martin family.

      On his show, Piers was excoriated by Toure for not being tougher in questioning the Zimmerman camp. I think Piers is slightly embarrassed about that excoriation, as it turns out that Toure was right about the lies spewed by Joe Oliver et al.

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:13 pm

        I think Bill was saying, you can be Afro-Peruvian and still be racist…
        IOW, look out Fogen, the Feds might not be done with you yet!

        Reply
      • Looolooo says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:29 pm

        Amen xy11xy……..I made the EXACT same observations in my comment @ about11:45 last night. I (like you) didn’t miss the ourt right falsity that Chris Dorner was racist, and that he wanted Fareed Zakariah deported because of his skin color and accent. He (in his manifesto) stated his reason to be his anti-Americanism, NOT his ethnicity. I happen to agree with the anti-Americanism part (but I also think that FZ makes excellent points, and is brilliant, as well as smokin’ hot), And I think Piers is even more anti-American than FZ. But that’s another story for another time. And also, like you, I noticed that RZJ took great pains to mention ONLY AA people who accuse GZ of being a racist and a murdering liar. Completely ignoring the countless caucastion, asian, hispanic and other ethnicites, not who share the exact opinions. I mentioned this in one of my comments thursday. I am extremely dissapointed in Bill Maher for his softball interview with RZJ. Yet another missed opportunity to get at the true cause of RZJ’s intention. I can’t belive he let him go on and on about being Afro-Peruvian. And why did Bill have to resurrect O.J.?

        If Only Tavis Smiley, Charles Blow, Jonathan Capehart, Toure’, Lawerence O’Donnell, Martin Bashir, Ed Shultz, or even Al Sharpton (even though his voice can be like finger nails on a chalk board) could get a crack at him. If only.

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:37 pm

        @looolooo:

        “I noticed that RZJ took great pains to mention ONLY AA people who accuse GZ of being a racist and a murdering liar. Completely ignoring the countless caucastion, asian, hispanic and other ethnicites, not who share the exact opinions.”

        He ALWAYS does that, as do his friends, The Last Refuse aka Conservative Outhouse.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 16, 2013 at 8:48 pm

        I was a little disappointed Bill went so easy on Jr too.

        The part that really got me…Jr ‘has a future in the industry’
        Yuck!

        After GZ’s trial, will anyone really want to listen to Jr?
        Most likely not, he will just be known as the murder’s brother, IMO

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 12:00 am

        Maybe, but Piers has a more moderate show and moderate approach. Brits don’t generally display the level of confrontation that Toure wanted and that Toure exhibited himself.

        Reply
        • xy11xy says:
          February 20, 2013 at 2:37 pm

          heh.. that was one heck of a fireworks show! Piers seems to have changed his mind about confrontation with the gun enthusiasts.

          Toure was angry because we all knew the Zimmerman cronies were lying, the least Piers could do was challenge them on it. We see now(gun debate) that Piers is more than capable of confrontation…he’s VERY good at it!

          All he could do then was belittle Toure’s legitimate concerns.

          So, why does Piers confront in one circumstance but not in the other?

          And what’s up with Bill’s interview? I just don’t get it.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:34 am

        I don’t think Piers is anti-American at all. I think he’s quite razzle-dazzled and almost red-white-&blue patriotic. I think he’s simply anti-gun and wants to bring a little more Brit-style civility to American life.

        Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 10:24 pm

      I think Bill was mocking him but still he was playing softball

      oh well, not like he is a witness anyways, so it is all opinion

      bit seriously

      How is the media unfair?

      For the past 8 or so months, it has been nothing but testimony from RZ Jr. or Omara, unanswered on air, or that lame non expert Michael Knox trying to pitch his book

      At trial they will hear the screams and see the forensic evidence that Trayvon was the one on the bottom, did not start the altercation, and did not even attack the defendant at all

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 17, 2013 at 1:12 am

      I just watched it and wasn’t disappointed. Although I’d like to have seen a little more humor, the pair basically had a civil conversation about the case. Bill was more subtle and measured in his skepticism of Fogen.

      This country is mired in gridlock with all contention going on between progressives and conservatives. At some point in time, there has to be some reconcilation of opposing sides to find the truth or the compromise that lies somewhere in between. Bill’s civil treatment of Jr. illustrates that to some degree.

      There doesn’t have to be a showy bring-you-down drama in order to prove one’s point or to put the opponent’s point down. Jr keeps talking about wanting to have a dialogue about his brother. Well, he got one. Even he sounded more moderate.

      I did like Maher’s subtle “you don’t seem like your brother” stuff and the hoody remark. Even the closing remark about Jr. getting into “the business” could be understood with more than one meaning.

      The only person who needs any hard questions, really, is Fogen, and he’s the only one whose answers really matter. We already know to a great degree what those questions and answers are and where they will lead him.

      Reply
  25. Cercando Luce says:
    February 16, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Dear George himself SHOWED US ALL, on his very own reenactment that Trayvon had put up his hands as if to say, Okay, I know you have a gun, I give up, and then he shot him one time, ANYWAY. And shrugged.

    I sure hope all the efforts to sow confusion in the judicial process (combining SYG/immunity hearing, 500 jurors, delay requests, insistence on deposing unrelated persons) DO NOT OBSTRUCT JUSTICE. Gee whiz. That’s exactly what going to happen.

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 16, 2013 at 5:00 pm

      @ Cercando Luce:

      “Dear George himself SHOWED US ALL, on his very own reenactment that Trayvon had put up his hands as if to say, Okay, I know you have a gun, I give up, and then he shot him one time, ANYWAY. And shrugged.”

      In GZ’s reenactment, he said that Trayvon sat up and did this AFTER he was shot. Like many lies, there is some partial truth. GZ pulled the gun, Trayvon put up his hands and said whatever “as if to say,” started screaming and begging for help, but GZ shot him anyway.

      So yes, Trayvon did sit up and say that, he begged, he cried, and GZ shot him anyway. It did NOT happen after he shot him.

      First-degree murder!!!

      Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:07 pm

        I agree and, he should have been charged as such. I’m hoping that who ever sits on that jury will do the right thing by an innocent unarmed child who never laid a finger on this POS. I feel so sorry for Trayvon and his family because, they are the true victims in this case yet those who are racist among us are treating them as though they committed a crime.

        This is so unfair to that family and, those who are spewing out their hate and racist comments know it is. but, they don’t care because the victim was black. there is a subhuman over @ HP who calls herself/himself Luceeclair, who thinks the Martin/Fulton family needs to be investigated and that they have never worked. this family has done nothing to be investigated for and, their working or not working has not one damn thing to do with Fogen murdering their child/brother.

        I never knew that there were so many *IGNORANT* people in this country until these racist snakes crawled out of their dens. the hate that these people spew out is unreal and, sites such as HP is more than happy to put it out there for them. this country will never overcome it’s racist history because of those who see’s nothing wrong about a grown man killing an innocent black child. may Fogen and his groupies all *rot in hell.*

        Reply
  26. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    Trailer Park.

    Its a kind of gated community.

    So is a Prison couls say the ultimate gated an secure type community.

    So where ever foggen ends up he wont face that much of a culture shlock.

    Untill the door slams an the clunk of the lock.

    Tic toc tic toc Spring is round the corner with June rapido on its tail foggen get ready for jail an this time never no bail the night you stole Trayvons life an Voice was your ultimate fail.

    In front of Nelson you will make your last stand the world will be watching as you stand your ground.
    And as you look around those smiles an cheers you hear are for Trayvon as he cant be here.
    Down you will go down deep below the belly of the beast upon you it will feast.
    Never again will you know what its like to be free to be able to go where you wish to stroll to be care free.

    Just like your victim that night whos life you stole like a theif in the night .
    For Trayvon that night you installed fright an pain an for that you took the Lords Name an used it in VAIN.

    And for that sin an for defileing his name the Murder of TRAYVON.

    Shall cause you a lifetime of pain.

    Reply
  27. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    racerrodig says:

    February 16, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Believe it or not here is a coincidence of fact that is just staggering that 98% of every member of the Zidiot Nation has in common.
    On another site I found out that most Zidiots live in a similar style dwelling. If you ask nice I’ll tell you.

    Ach thats easy .

    All Trailer Park Residents.

    All ready got one figured out for the home comeing of there homie.
    Better make it a doublewide though.

    Reply
  28. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    It is my suspicion that GZ was in possession of stolen jewelry that he sold on eBay; had received the money and had to ship the products. He needed to do that in order to prevent carrying the stolen property with him.

    ‘Xena

    my opinion only.

    A Laptop with all foggens secret stuff
    Porn him an shells gretest hits so to speak
    Peadophilia type vileness
    Beastiality
    Bacicly any an all type of sicko perverted type stuff you wouldn want L E disscovering on your pc laptop hard drive ect.
    Stuff that is impeative that your eyes only means precisely that.
    An not even your freinds down the station would under stand.
    Vital to pack an stack/stash.
    But a possesions.possesions you just cant bear to part with.

    As I say above is my best geustimate of what freaky fucked up foggen was up to………………..

    Reply
  29. colin black says:
    February 16, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Trayvon is offering no resistance at all.

    I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant, thus the only defensis a child an the only interaction I susspect re violencee he knows is to flee if it is possible. If not he just pulls away, twists turns and/or falls down. All in an effort to break the grip his attacker has on him.

    @
    Lonniestar

    Yes Trayvon.

    Is a child an the only interaction if any with an adult re violence.
    Would have ocoured as most children know if a fight erupts between indivduals at school ect if possable.
    Imeadiatly seek out the assistance of a responcable adult to stop it.
    Before anyone gets seriously injured hopefully.
    Trayvons only defence that night within sight of his own abode safe haven wherever he hung his hoodie thats his home.
    His only defence was to scream as loud as his lungs could for help,
    The screams of a terrified child not alone in the wilderness at the mercy of his crazed attacker.

    But in sight of saftey his back door surrounded by occupied homes whom heard his pityfull screams an pleas for help NONE CAME TO HIS AID.
    Although many many heard his crys an pleas an some even rubber knecked before retreating to the safety of there home when they saw good ole foggen had the SITUATION underneath him
    Under control.

    No Trayvon wasnt in the wilderness of the countryside
    He was in a wilderness of compassion of course I excempt the school teacher an the two lady wittnesses dog abscondee boy from this.
    But in Genral no one in that few blocks cared a rats ass that a child was being terrorised an manhandled by foggen that night.

    Trayvons SCREAMS reached right around the globe an horrified each an everyone of us that heard them.
    But to most that heard them live.
    And ceased hearing them because of DEATH,
    Didnt care.

    Reply
    • kllypyn says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:34 pm

      If someone had said to zimmerpunk don’t shoot him. Maybe he would have thought about what he was about to do.

      Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 17, 2013 at 8:16 am

      Instead of running back inside, John should have said “George! What are you doing to that kid?” After all, he knew by the sounds that that was a kid, and he could certainly see it was George NW Zimmerman. Instead he give George some privacy and pretends he’s so fearful of the “strangers” out there “fighting”, that after the shot is fired, he comes out and strikes up a conversation with the deadly stranger, huh?!?!? Then tells the police that he saw the kid raining down MMA style blows on buddy George?!?!? MMA style blows, that he later concedes that he never saw? Well, if he never saw them, then how could he have made up that particular story?
      There are hundreds of types of combative moves that he could have stated had happened, so how does he come up with exactly the moves that match GZ’s story? (Professor expounded on this before as well).

      When crafting a lie about something that never happened, it’s unlikely that your falsehood is going to match the falsehood of anyone else, unless you’ve both discussed it beforehand. Meaning that John had knowledge of this scenario before it ever happened.
      Either that or he was quite willing to allow it to appear that he had fore knowledge. Either way that’s pretty damning, because you are aiding and abetting a liar which is known as obstructing justice.

      Well, now we really need to know if that was Ransberg and crew at the 711. Like I said, they timed their arrival to coincide with Trayvon being outside the store. They did not want to be seen interacting on the store cctv. What they didn’t know was that the store cctv could catch a little bit of what was happening outside. At least enough for us to know that TM waited outside the store for about 30 seconds for them to arrive. Because, if he wasn’t waiting for anyone, once he left the store he would have immediately started for home. He had 30 seconds to start for home and he didn’t use them. Instead he stood outside the store and waited. Not only waited for them to arrive, but he waited for them to come out of the store before he left for home, almost 5 full minutes delay.

      We know he did not get a blunt from them, so we know he didn’t change any money with them. So, all they got from him was conversation. So, then, what was the point of the meeting? Friends? They’ve got a car and it’s raining, they’re headed back to RATL where they live, so why not offer your “friend” a lift? Why let him walk .7 miles in the dark and rain? Would you turn down a ride just to speak on the phone with a GF who you have been speaking with all day long? Or “Hey guys, just drop me at the front gate?”

      But no, all this way to wait for them guys and then to just exchange a few words?!?!? There’s no evidence that you know them, of course they may know you. Something here is very, very, very, very wrong.

      Reply
  30. LLMPapa says:
    February 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Reply
    • mountainmanpat says:
      February 16, 2013 at 12:41 pm

      “Maybe he was on patrol with somebody else”…..?

      No he wasn’t…..he was on his way to Target…..Maybe with a ride along.

      Or did I miss something?

      Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:26 pm

      Hey papa
      Love the vid. Depending on your intentions, you may consider putting context in that video for the uninitiated (I love posting your vids for people trying to catch to the case). I know exactly where the snippet comes from but the noobs may not.

      Reply
    • Elizabeth De Grave says:
      February 16, 2013 at 8:25 pm

      Somebodyelse who could then testify that he was a real live witness to the beating to within an inch of his live good thing he had his gun on him cause because all this witness could do was witness?

      He is just sayin……

      Where is the defendant anyway?

      Reply
  31. Romaine says:
    February 16, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    I think that interview may piss off the residents of sanford.

    Reply
    • jm says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:05 pm

      Romaine: “I think that interview may piss off the residents of sanford.”

      Not to mention Sanford property values dropping even more since GZ shot an unarmed kid. Now RZ, Jr claims it is dangerous with constant criminal activity.

      Wonder if that interview might have pissed off RZ, Sr as RZ, Jr claimed he was not white like his father but rather Afro-Peruvian. LOL. GZ has NEVER been white.

      The more the Zimmerman KKKlan talk the more they reveal how incredibly unintelligent they are.

      Reply
      • mountainmanpat says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:11 pm

        at about 3 minutes into the interview junior states…and I quote……

        “Dad’s American race”

        Since when did American become a race?

        Afro-Peruvian / American race…………..WTF?

        Reply
        • jm says:
          February 16, 2013 at 1:17 pm

          MMP: “Dad’s American race” Since when did American become a race?

          Sounds to me like RZ, Jr is anti-Caucasian/white.

          Seriously I wonder if RZ, Jr. ever watches or listens to Zimmerman KKKlan interviews and thinks WTF are we talking about? My dad, mom, brother and I are raving idiots. Hope nobody notices.

          Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:53 pm

        Is Peru not in the Americas? What a bunch of mumbo-jumbo on Daddeo’s American race and Mumsy’s Afro-Peruvian race, whatever that’s supposed to mean. All designed as distraction to what Fat Fart Fogen actually did … shoot an unarmed kid in the heart.

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:17 pm

        Amen Trained Observer!!

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 17, 2013 at 9:17 am

        Definition: “American Race”:
        (1) white; (2) right correct race; (3) the race that bestows superiority upon its members.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:28 pm

        The only American race are the natives hence “NATIVE AMERICAN”

        However because of how things happened, the country grew into the multicultural country it is today

        However many bigots attribute it as being a “white” country

        Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:52 pm

      Numerous, not so tough guys, walked around the complex to film it

      It is not a dangerous place to live and as w18 put it, it is a nice neighborhood

      It is like any city, it is not perfect, but considerably, it seems mainly just thefts but where I live presently in Vancouver, we have thefts too but I would not call it dangerous to live there

      There are also housing projects here, like Cottonwood, and they are not dangerous places to live

      I think perhaps maybe issues with just a couple thefts here and there, but I dont feel it is a dangerous place to live

      Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm

        The Retreat was suffering – like many neighborhoods – from the foreclosure crisis and everything that went with that: petty crimes, vandalism, empty homes etc.

        I’m betting most of the vandalism was done by departing owners, angry about being foreclosed. The renters who came into the community actually enlivened it, and allowed owners to hold onto their property – it was a good thing. However, they became scapegoats and were blamed for all the misery of those former proud homeowners brought low by having their homes taken away.

        George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon.

        Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:40 pm

        XY11 — You have a solid assessment. Foreclosed upon homeowners in Florida have been known to take off with appliances and even air-conditioning systems.

        Am curious to know whether Fogen was renting furnished or unfurnished, and how much he was paying or (knowing those two deadbeats) not paying in their lease agreement. Just curious.

        The key point always is that he killed Trayvon for now earthly excusable reason.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 17, 2013 at 9:19 am

        It wasn’t dangerous until Fogen chose to chase and shoot people. Remember, before he killed Trayvon Martin, another young African American man living there (Ibrahim Rashada) said that he no longer would take a walk around his neighborhood because of his fear of Fogen, who was profiling young Black men. Rashada said that when he wanted to stretch his legs, he would “drive into town” because he “didn’t want to be chased.”

        And he was a homeowner. I wonder if HE was the one who was escorted out of the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting…hmmm… there has been media silence about him for quite a while. Hmmmmm…

        Reply
  32. Judy75201 says:
    February 16, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    One more post and it breaks 1,000.

    Reply
  33. Trained Observer says:
    February 16, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Most people don’t care if Fogen is sky-blue pink. He’s a killer, and a stupid lying one at that. Fogen’s brother is a jerk. Too bad Maher went easy on him when he needed to be curtly dismissed.

    Reply
  34. Judy75201 says:
    February 16, 2013 at 10:10 am

    So fogen “isn’t and never has been white”* according to Junior on the Maher show.

    *(Except on official forms, that is.)

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 16, 2013 at 10:38 am

      Only when convenient, and he doesn’t feel it is convenient right now.

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 16, 2013 at 10:47 am

      Caucasian when Convenient.

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:22 am

      On thursdays, they are Puerto Rican

      Saturdays, they are Chinese

      1st of the month, then they are philipino

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:48 am

        When are they black…..every day that ends in a “P” I can’t wait for Wednesday !!

        Afro – Peruvian……A hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

        Reply
        • jm says:
          February 16, 2013 at 12:05 pm

          Do you think that the reason RZJ might be protesting too much about being white race is there may be a hint of a hate crime in his brother’s future?

          Or could it be that RZJ is prejudiced against Caucasians.

          I don’t know what his deal is. He seems suspicious.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:40 pm

        Junior – We are Afro Peruvian but my dad is American (white guy) and that is who they represent

        Fogenhats Passport says he is white
        Fogenhats driver’s license says white
        Fogenhats told police, he was white

        Okay, now all of a sudden they are Afro Peruvian?

        Reply
        • jm says:
          February 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm

          Jun says: “Okay, now all of a sudden they are Afro Peruvian?”

          Well Jun that just proves that GZ can’t be charged with a hate crime because if he is Afro Peruvian he can’t profile black teens with hoodies as suspicious. RIght?

          Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 7:09 pm

          Friday is variety night. Pizza ‘n Afro Peruvian night, a little Chinese on the side with Matzo Balls to go with the Zimmerman name.

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:36 pm

            @Xena, Shannon, Racer –

            Where are all the TV historians to point out to RZJr. that if Jews supposedly changed their names out of fear of the Nazis, RZ Sr’s father was born here in the USofA long before Herr Schickelgruber came to power in Germany during the 30’s.

            The Zimmermans likely emigrated from Germany in the late 1800’s to escape Kaiser Wilhelm’s policies – or more significantly, those of Wilhelm’s Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck.

            Why would Jews ever choose “Zimmerman” — “carpenter” as a surname? They would more likely choose “Kelly” or the like if they wanted a pseudonym.

            FYI, Bill Maher is Irish on his father’ side and Jewish on his mother’s and is non-religions by choice.

            Now, where are all the AFRUVIAN journalists/TV personalities when you need one?

            Personally, I vote for Miss Piggy to interview Junior.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:45 pm

            Not one of them is intelligent enough to understand any of this, let alone what they say.

            “Personally, I vote for Miss Piggy to interview Junior.”

            That won’t happen since SheLie has taken over for Miss Piggy so the interview would be “Biased”

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 16, 2013 at 8:36 pm

            P Mom…..I see you know a good bit of German history…..

            I specialize in German stamps postal history myself….

            I didn’t want to get involved in the name change part….YOU have done it quite well…… Mann following another word would indicate a persons trade, and have been used by Jews in Germany since the middle ages…. Kauf mann….Kauf business..a businessman….Fleisch…..flesh…mann…a butcher…..I’m sure you knew this……………Yet good to let others know very well that juniors BS about the name change and the nazi’s is an outright lie, and using it to even more appear the victim….just as fogen has done.

            Which in turn makes him more of a disgusting lying snake…..Just waitin’ for the Holocaust to get thrown in there also

            “We are descendants of the Afro Peruvian Holocaust victim’s”

            WWWWWWWWWWWWaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 8:54 pm

            ““We are descendants of the Afro Peruvian Holocaust victim’s”

            Such tormented souls…..Now I’ll have to send them 2 cents to help alleviate the misery……….Oh the humanity….

      • PiranhaMom says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:25 am

        @ Jun,

        Stupid RZ Jr. appears to be confirming the fact that RG Sr. is NOT his bio father, as Dad has no Peruvian and no African genetic connections.

        What IS verified is that RG Sr. (“Roberto”) is the son of a US Navy
        junior officer from Minnesota who in 1946 went up to Ottawa to marry the daughter of the 2nd-in-command at the Cuban Embassy – a young Cuban woman whom he was dating in Washington when her Dad was posted to the US as a Cuban diplomat. So… RG Senior is half Zimmerman-from-the-US and half Cuban.

        So Grandpa Zimmerman (also a Robert, which is why his son was called “Roberto” by his Cuban mother — and to keep things straight, Roberto is now the ex-magistrate retired to Florida, with his Peruvian wife, Gladys.

        If Gladys is so prejudiced against Blacks, as her niece claims, is it becaise she thinks Roberto could have some Black history mixed in from the Cuban side — Roberto’s Cuban mother?

        Now it is true that there is a lot of African genetic material in the Cuban
        population but back in the 40’s — 70 years ago — Cubans of African descent
        did NOT get appointed to the Cuban Diplomatic Service.

        RZ JR saying he and his brother are Afro-Peruvians acknowledges only the Peruvian connection – Gladys’ sister, it seems, and whoever the bio father of these two losers are.

        RZ is flogging this stuff around in an attempt to portray his brother as color-blind and without prejudice but it sounds like the whole damned family is as hot as a Habanero about racial issues.

        Let us also keep in mind that Robert-from-Minnesota was in the navy during World War II when America was fighting Hitler. The family had been in the US for decades before Hitler’s rise to power. Who knows if they were ever Jewish?

        These are really terrible people. First they try to steal Trayvon’s death scream, and now they are stealing the history of the Holocaust from 8,000,000 rightful victims.

        Good God, have they no SHAME?

        No.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 17, 2013 at 8:49 am

        I want to address this idea that there is anything Jewish about the name Zimmerman; there is not. Robert Zimmerman Senior is not Jewish and never was Jewish; his ancestry is German. The fact that many Jews took German names (NOT NOT NOT, stupid Junior, NOT, when the Nazis rose to power — you made that up, you pontificating a55hole) centuries ago is reflected in the fact that many “Jewish names” are not really from any Hebraic origin but from German origin — such as Rosenberg. Rosenberg should be the most famous of the “Jewish names” because it is perfectly obvious that the name Rosenberg was both a German name (Alfred Rosenberg) and a common Jewish name (Julius Rosenberg) during the 20th Century. The point is that these names that Junior may have learned about during the 20th Century were German names adopted by Jews in Germany hundreds of years back.

        When the Nazis rose to power, there was no opportunity to change names to fool them. What a ridiculous idea! Not only does the FogenFamily apparently believe that whatever they say, absurd as it may be, is going to be believed (especially if they dress it up with some little historical factoids or even imaginary factoidationisms) and relied upon, making them even more experty than they previously were. Look at the progression:

        Fogen was an expert on solving crime

        Fogen graduated naturally to being an expert in preventing crime

        He also was an expert in mentoring the next generation so as to totally eradicate crime in our lifetime

        He became an expert in correcting and straightening up the Sanford Police

        He then became an expert in correcting homicide detectives’ false impressions

        He then rose to being an expert in explaining social and legal situations to a confused world

        Then his brother entered the scene as an expert on hate, especially that hate practiced by Blacks against whites who are forced to kill their kids

        Then Brother Junior became a media expert while Fogen became an expert on theology and interpreting god’s plans

        Then Brother Junior became an expert on race relations and gun control

        Then Fogen became an expert on security systems and logistics.

        Then Brother Junior became an expert on Holocaust Studies.

        NOW I THINK IT IS TIME TO STOP and just canonize both of these insufferable experts and after that, throw one of them in prison and let the other one become an expert on habeas corpus.

        BTW, what was Junior’s profession before he became an expert? Was he also an insurance broker or was he a mortgage fraud specialist? Or used cars? Or what? There is now reliable information that he was never a lawyer.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 17, 2013 at 10:24 pm

          “Well said..”

          “NOW I THINK IT IS TIME TO STOP and just canonize…” didn’t you mean “cannonball”

          Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 3:06 am

          @Malisha,

          Thank you, thank you. It is such a sacrilege for Jr. to attempt to garner sympathy for his crummy family by claiming they were somehow menaced by Hitler. They are not survivors of Belsen-Buchewald.

          They are liars, no-talent fame-seekers and one is a murderer. That’s all – but that’s enough.

          Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 20, 2013 at 7:00 pm

          At one point it was said that he was a cosmetologist. But then again Robert Zimmerman is probably as common in cosmetology as it is jurisprudence. I’d like to know b

          Sent from my iPod

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:47 pm

        They do tell a lot of lies and bullshit and I feel bad for the people who actually fall for it

        First Pops says Fogenhats was on watch

        Fogenhats said he was going to target

        Then Junior says Fogenhats was on watch and concerned about crime

        Now Junior says he was going to Target

        Fogenhats said he was following

        Now he says he was not following

        Now Junior says he is a watch but he was not on watch, although he was neighborhood watching?

        Then Junior says you were not there but there was a head bashing although he was not there to witness it

        Then Junior concentrated on the nose breaking

        Then Junior claimed they were not racist but Fogenhats stalked Trayvon because of crime although he was just a black kid walking home from 7-11 with Skittles

        Then the doctor reports came out that there was maybe a broken nose, and it should get checked out first before making a conclusion

        Then Junior says the doctor said there was a broken and that is what the doctor said

        Their lies are always all over the place and never make any sense which is why I am glad the state has a timeline of events because no one will be able to follow the Fogenhats nonsense

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 17, 2013 at 9:02 pm

        The new Z theme song:

        Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:36 pm

      @Judy,

      If, in fact, RZJr and GZ are the children of Mama Zimmerman’s sister and the sister’s Peruvian husband (or husbands) the reported gulf between Jr. and GZ may be based on racial
      animosity/parental favoritism.

      GZ clearly has Peruvian Indian genetics in his mix, while Jr. has European features. It’s possible that they have different fathers. If it was an intra-family adoption, RZSr. is not the father.

      Look at GZ’s nose in profile, and the close-set eyes. Clearly some Huanca Quechua genes there(indiginous Andean). Jr. does not have that.

      If the cousin’s reports are correct, Mama Zimmerman favored the paler race. She herself brought up, in the TV interview (where she phoned it in) that in Peruvians’ bloodlines, “there’s a little bit of everything.”
      (I’m paraphrasing here.)

      But it’s a stretch to describe GZ as “afro-peruvian” and I bet that ticks off a lot of genuine Africans and Peruvians.

      If the cousin’s report on the family’s racial intolerance is correct, GZ may always have been aware that his older brother with the European features was more favored. Jr. is also more articulate.

      It would be tough to be a kid and have Jr. as your older brother.

      Reply
      • looneydoone says:
        February 17, 2013 at 9:17 am

        Is this Roberto (Rob) Zimmerman the man who testified at the second bond hearing ?
        http://www.familias-de-fajardo.com/4521.htm
        That family tree traces back to Spain (Catalonia), the USA, Austro/Hungarian/German-Jews who emigrated to Cuba and lived the good life as Caudillos. Mariano Brull y Caballeros was a career diplomat until an argument with Bautista . He and his USA born wife, Adelita Baralt Zacharie are buried in La Habana, Cuba

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 3:32 am

          @Looney,

          TIsee that that website was constructed this month, but yes, that Rob (Roberto) is the one who testified.

          The website shows Rob married Ines, they had a daughter who married in 2004 to a Greek.

          I don’t know when Rob’s marriage to Gladys took place. I understand her family names is Meza or Mesa, they are from Peru, and the brother lives in the US with his family. That is likely the father of the cousin who accused GZ of sexual groping and abuse.

          The sister/half-sister/cousin to GZ and RZ that is so affectionate to GZ is named Susie. There is an older girl in the family, too. I don’t know her name, do you?

          None of this really matters, except where the brothers try to claim spurious racial bloodlines to prove they are free from prejudice.

          Another reason it may not matter at all is that, except for one US State Department biography (on and by Roberto’s father), all the other info we’ve gotten is from AjaMazin, who has been an agent provocateur on this blog.

          Reply
      • looneydoone says:
        February 18, 2013 at 11:48 am

        Piranha Mom,
        That website was *modified* this month. All the photos have been removed. (same with the Spanish language ancestry sites telefonica and sologeneologia, they’ve been recently *modified*)

        Roberto’s paternal grandparents are Clemence Zimmerman and Lillian Meta Becker, of Chicago (Lilian had a sister, Hattie)
        Roberto’s maternal grandparents are Mariano Brull y Caballero (son of Spanish Army officer Mario Brull stationed in Camaguey, Cuba) and NYC born Adelaida “Adelita” Baralt Zacahrie (daughter of Blanche Hutchings Zacharie (she’s the aunt who moved to Ottawa, Canada)

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 6:43 pm

          @Loonie –

          I’m getting bogged down in this. Can you post the original link again? Can’t locate it in 1,300 posts. I am trying to put the names together in Hispanic mode, which I THINK goes like this:

          Jose Gomez marries Jane Brown and their son Rodrigo becomes Rodrigo Gomez y Brown

          Rodrigo marries Martha Walter and their son Juan becomes Juan Gomez y Walter.

          Juan marries Natalia Rodriguez and their son Xavier becomes Xavier Gomez y Rodriguez

          I understand the last name (in the “double last name”) is the mother’s maiden name.

          I don’t know if, on marriage, the husband discards his mother’s maiden name and attaches his wife’s maiden name – or not.

          In CA the “y” is usually lost.

          I do know that the first name in the double names is the surname used here (CA) in news reports ( e.g., “Dr. Pedro Salazar Camacho won the Nobel Prize for Medicine. Salazar graduated from Stanford with his PhD in biochemistry in 1994 when he was 21 … “)

          Maybe Cielo can help out here. I studied Spanish in school but when I came to CA everybody laughed at me because I lithped. Castilian wasn’t their bag. I now speak “ag Spanish” and our discussions don’t go into las historias de las abeulitas.

          Thanks!

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 18, 2013 at 6:48 pm

            30 years in So. Ca. and the limits of my spanish are how to order drinks….and cussing………even had a hard time with Mexican menus 😦

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 18, 2013 at 9:05 pm

            @MMPat –

            Who needs food when you can order drinks?

            In an earlier post you commented on my knowledge of German history. Actually, I don’t have much, but I’m a skier. I can get beer, breakfast and a doctor in four languages (used to be able to do it also in Japanese and Swedish, but that escapes me now). Knowing it in German was a REAL help to me, when I went over a cliff …

            Glad to know you stick with the essentials, Pat!

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 19, 2013 at 10:41 am

            Which link? I’m not on the genealogy threads. You must be confusing me with someone else.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            February 20, 2013 at 12:54 am

            @Lonnie Starr,

            Please ignore the post. It was addressed to Looney (as in LooneyDoone)and you receieved instead. I’ll start using full names where there’s a similarity. And the subject was just trolltrash, so just ignore it, please.

            Thanks.

        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 7:09 pm

          @Looneydoone –

          OK, don’t bother digging up the link to the Zimmerman ancestry site. I found it.

          All this crap is devised by that nitwit anti-Israel Jew-hater AjaMazin, the pimply-faced
          troll in his parents basement somewhere.

          I should have known better than get involved in this blather – again.

          I apologize to everyone.

          Reply
      • looneydoone says:
        February 19, 2013 at 8:29 am

        PiranhaMom,
        You have the naming conventions correct. Roberto Zimmermann Brull maries Ines Tell de Palleja…their children are Zimmermann Tell.
        Roberto married Ines June 1975 in Barcelona. They have one daughter, Beatriz Zimmerman Tell born June 1976 in Chicago. She married Panayotis Llanos y Protagoras (son of Konstantino Llanos and Delores Protagoras) 5/22/04 in Athens, Greece. They have a son, Uylsses Llanos Zimmermann born 2007 in Tokyo

        Roberto’s mother (Silvia Brull Baralt) had a sister, Cristina born 1921 in Lima, Peru. She married Enrique Diago Superville. They had 2 children, Maria-Cristina Diago Brull born 1951 in Brussels and Fernando Diago Brull born 1955 in la Habana, Cuba. He married a Cuban woman, MariCarmen Celaya Gonzalez. They had 4 children before divorcing (they’ve been *modified* out of the ancestry sites recently, Aug 2012) The most recent *modifications* were made one week ago (11 Feb 2013)

        There’s no record of divorce for Roberto and Ines. In fact, they were married as recently as Nov 1999. The obit for her mother, Mercedes de Palleja Fabra was published by la Vanguardia…Rob/hijo en ley, Ines/hija and Beatriz/nieta are mentioned as being in attendance.

        IF I were to guess, I suspect Grandma Cristina is Roberto’s maternal Aunt (sister of his mother Silvia)…and the boys her grandchildren.

        I’ve given names you can search…too many *modifications* to the once useful ancestry sites have been made (last Aug and this month). Many of the links I’ve found will not open on your USA servers.

        Isn’t speculation fun ??

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 20, 2013 at 12:33 am

          @LooneyDoone,

          This will sound uncivil, and in recognition of that I apologize for my boorishness, but anything extracted from or via AjaMazin’s anti-Israel, Jew-hating site ends up in my computer’s trash, including the information you have supplied. We are on the Professor’s site, dedicated to solving a crime based on bigotry, and in the wider sense to fighting bigotry. Utilizing AjaMazin’s site as a source is unacceptable to me.

          Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:54 pm

      To be fair, the official whiteness is because of the way race and ethnicity is handled via gov’t forms. Why do we keep rehashing that issue?

      Reply
  35. Lonnie Starr says:
    February 16, 2013 at 9:30 am

    On the 711 video:

    Trayvon has 2 twenty dollar bills we know his father gave him and we know that all that’s left on him later is the 2 twenty dollar bills and a dime. Look carefully at the amount of change the clerk dumps in the draw, it’s quite a small pile. Arizona iced tea 1.50? Skittles .75? Nope that doesn’t look like 2.25 he hands over. More like AzIt 1.99 Skittles 1.10 or 3.09, 2 bills and 1.09 in change is more like it.

    What did he go back for? Has anyone seen those gags where you crazy glue a coin, like a quarter to the floor, then watch as people get disgusted trying to secretly grab it? Quite an amusing trick for a clerk at a convenience store night shift. Notice how Trayvon acts after he tries the pick up. He appears to walk nonchalantly towards the back of the store, as if he never stooped for anything, then turns and heads back out.

    Here’s the serious thing. Notice that Trayvon leaves the store, but does not start back east to home. Instead he waits some 25 seconds and a car arrives. See that headlamp? It seems to contain the three stooges, who come in the store while Trayvon continues to wait outside. Eh??? He finished his business on an errant trip to the store, yet he waits for (what would be) strangers to arrive? At parking lot speeds 25 seconds is more than enough time for him to get underway towards home, if he is not expecting to meet anyone.

    Strangers who don’t want to be seen in the store with Trayvon, and so don’t arrive until after he comes out? Guess they knew he’d wait a little while for them eh?

    These strangers go inside themselves, yet they’re careful to keep their own faces hidden from the camera. So, just who is this white guy flashing his braids, who travels with two black guys? Could it be Ransberg? You know the white guy who had the stolen laptop in his backpack, the one that Emmanuel Burgess stole from Dreamcis then claimed when the police came.

    Holy Coincidence Batman, these guys who would certainly be known to the neighborhood watch captain, are here in the store, arriving shortly after TM leaves and they’re hiding their faces. First trip to the store in 6 days and there’s a party there to greet him????

    Isn’t it a wee bit strange that after 6 nights of staying at home, Trayvon suddenly decided to walk to the store and picks a rainy Sunday night to do it? For an iced tea? Skittles? You don’t suspect that with two teens in the house Tracey and Brandy didn’t have loads of snacks in the house? And why is Trayvon suddenly so antsy? Tracy and Brandy have barely been gone for 2 hours, the game is on in one more hour, and Trayvon has been talking to DD all day anyway, so why does he suddenly need privacy? What? From Chad? Chad is stalking around the house trying to listen in on Trayvon’s phone call? Not playing his engrossing video games? Notice also that Trayvon takes a look or two towards the door of the 711. Is he expecting someone?

    Nope, if you ask me Trayvon didn’t just up and go to the store. He was lured out by an invite to meet with these boys there. The only thing that remains to be discovered is how and when the arrangement was made. The fact that they travel by car gives them an idea tracking advantage. If they also know where Trayvon lives, then they don’t even have to follow behind him, they can get ahead of him, making it impossible for Trayvon to detect that he’s being tracked.

    Reply
    • kllypyn says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:24 pm

      You are making assumptions he may have just been waiting for the rain to let up a bit.

      Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:27 pm

        That’s my thought as well.

        Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:27 pm

        Nope, that won’t sell, go read about the rain data, google Tchoupi’s analysis. It started drizzling lightly shortly after TM began walking back some five minutes or so later. When he walked out of the store all he had to do was keep going towards home, those three guys would never have met him.

        When people leave a store with nothing else to do, they walk home beginning immediately, just as Trayvon does after his business with those guys is settled, whatever it was.

        But no. He exits the store and waits, and waits and suddenly this car pulls up, and still Trayvon doesn’t leave. Two of these three guys come into the store, the guy I think is Ransberg takes up a position in center screen and unfurls his braids for the camera. The Tampa Bay Times has a story that says that a Thomas Ransberg has dreadlocks, is black and a 20 year old home owner in RATL. The Ransburg the police stop and search with the laptop in his backpack is white. They give no first name or address for him. All we know about him is he travels with two black guys. It used to be three black guys until Burgess got arrested.

        Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:52 pm

      Now you’re sounding like a Treestumper. Hopefully for a different reason.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:53 pm

        PS Teenagers sometimes do illogical things just because they can. I’ve raised four of them and also remember quite well being one myself.

        Reply
  36. marshalettewise (@MarshaletteWise) says:
    February 16, 2013 at 9:29 am

    Hi all… it’s been a while. but I was searching Zimmerman and Trayvon videos and came across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC51gGW7jw4 and at the 1:20 mark it clearer has Zimmerman admitting to being on top of Trayvon… I don’t know if we have caught that before…. this may be the missing smoking gun… what are your thoughts???

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 17, 2013 at 3:09 pm

      Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent…….you have the right to an attorney………”

      “Ummmmm, okay, but, um……why would I do that, I have so many more versions to tell ya…..”

      I think I’ll get this 200 gallon cast iron pot, put 100 gallons of oil in it, light a fire under it for, oh…..say a few hours, and just go swimming in it……Duhhhhhhhhhhh

      Remember, any actual “Human Being” would never have given all of this up !! Can you imagine if he just kept his Afro – Peruvian lips from flapping, hired a lawyer and made them prove it, like a normal person would do ……….

      I’ll take “Stone Dead Idiots” for $5,000.00 Alex.

      Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      February 17, 2013 at 7:54 pm

      @Marshalette,

      I have long thought that piece of the Sanford PD video was one of the most significant pieces of evidence, because GZ was clearly not aware he was being recorded on camera – or, if so advised, forgot it as he was playing to his audience.

      Yes, I noted those words, and also the opening words on that video by the SPD stress-test operator, that GZ did not have any “play” in placing the gun, in other words, as GZ was describing the shooting, there was little room for him to get the gun between himself and Trayvon (if GZ were ACTUALLY undernesth Trayvon).

      Then there’s GZ’s statement that he was “on him.” I expect the argument O’Mara would make is that it meant “on target” (i.e. barrel sighted directly on top of Trayvon’s heart — although that is hardly less damning).

      Third is the grasping motion of GZ’s dominant left hand, (repeated later in the on-site filmed re-creation for Sanford P.D.) showing that GZ had Trayvon under his control by grasping his shirts, which confirms the alignment of the bullet holes in the shirts vis-a-vis the bullet hole in Trayvon.

      Fourth is GZ’s outstretched right arm as he demonstrates how he shot Trayvon. The trajectory of the bullet, as reported by forensic analysis DISPROVES WITHOUT DOUBT that GZ, on the ground, could have moved his right arm forward (or in any way) and shoot Trayvon in the heart and achieve that bullet trajectory through Trayvn’s heart, UNLESS Trayvon was levitating in horizontal plane above GZ below.

      THUS, GZ lies when he states that he shot Trayvon when GZ was trapped on the ground below Trayvon.

      I hope that the Miranda Rights GZ signed away that night include his signing away any right to object to the Sanford PD video filmed that night being introduced as evidence.

      Thank you Marshalette, for posting that video. Do you know who made it? What is its source?

      Reply
  37. Rachael says:
    February 16, 2013 at 7:39 am

    I saw it on youtube. Barf.

    Reply
  38. Jun says:
    February 16, 2013 at 6:23 am

    In my opinion, if the affidavit covers everything within scope of Crump as a court witness, then at most Crump should simply swear by it in court, and that is that and answer any questions within scope at trial or maybe perhaps a limited deposition

    I do not see the harm of the deposition, however, it should be within scope, and I do feel it is a waste of time considering Crump told him who was there and explicitly explained everything in detail

    Reply
  39. Jun says:
    February 16, 2013 at 6:21 am

    Malisha

    can you scan and send me the police reports or just summarize them for me?

    I’d like to send it to the Benjamin Crump Facebook support page, so the truth can get out regarding the alleged “rash of crime victims in the complex Trayvon was murdered in”

    Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:41 am

      Jun, ask Professor to privately send me your e-mail address and I’ll transmit the information to you next week, OK?
      Thanks.
      I’m getting ready to do a new FOIA for this year’s (1/26/2012 – 1/26/2013) crime information from RTL. But for last year’s, the only serious violent crime in that neighborhood was the killing of Trayvon Martin.

      And only three of the eight “break-ins” were real residential burglaries; five were other things like somebody stole a bike from public area or someone took a copper pipe from a construction site.

      Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:47 pm

      Jun, there is now a “hushmail” account for transmitting documents in the Trayvon Martin case. If you write to:

      FOIA-forwarding@hushmail.com, and put in the “re” line: from Jun on the Leatherman thread, if you say something in the body of the e-mail that makes me believe that the e-mail actually comes from you, I’ll send you the documents I got from the SPD and you can do whatever you like with them, print them out, transmit them, post them on-line, whatever. OK?

      Be sure to give me something that will make me think it’s you.

      Thanks.
      Malisha

      Reply
  40. ChrisNY~Laurie says:
    February 16, 2013 at 12:22 am

    This is just a small part of Jr’s reply to Maher’s question of, “Do you really think that had no effect on it if he was instead of a black teenager wearing a hoodie if it was Mitt Romney in mom jeans and a cadigan?

    Jr: I think that this would’ve happened not because George was racist, but because he really had a problem with with crime, and that community was victimized constantly by crime.

    So, what’s he saying?

    Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:37 am

      He doesn’t even know what he was saying but, he made damn sure to mention the lie about Lard Ass’s head being banged again and again on concrete. this simpleton knows damn well that did not happen but, he and his other morally bankrupt family members insist on retelling this lie which is as stale as their ass. it’s going to be a blessing when this lie is finally put to rest and, the entire Zimmerman family will look like the liars that we all know they are.

      Reply
    • groans says:
      February 16, 2013 at 5:34 am

      @ChrisNY – Hope this helps. 🙂

      He’s saying that little brother committed murder in the second degree.

      But he wants to clarify that little brother’s depraved mind is NOT rooted in racism. Rather, little brother’s depravity stems from the fact that he HAS ISSUES. Specifically, little brother REALLY HAS A PROBLEM with “crime.” Additionally, crime has happened CONSTANTLY. Therefore, little brother HAS A CONSTANT PROBLEM.

      He points out that, as a result of little brother’s constant problem, the VERY SAME sequence of events would have occurred even if MITT ROMNEY had been in Trayvon’s shoes.

      IN A NUTSHELL, Junior’s saying: What’s really wrong with all this criminal hoop-la is that nobody understands the full extent of my little brother’s depraved mind; the truth is, he’s an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY KILLER.

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:14 am

      He’s basically saying Fogenhats is not racist but he really believes every single black male is a criminal and responsible for the imaginary break ins in the complex when

      w18 – this is a nice neighborhood and this does not happen

      w2 – I never noticed any rash of break ins

      Mary Cutcher & Selma – Never noticed any rash of break ins

      Police reports – no rash of break ins. They reported 8 thefts in the year that led up to the murder. That is barely a crime spree or crime problem

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:21 am

        So you’re saying FogenPhoole and his brother, and Taaffe, and Osterman, Papa and Mummsie lied……I’m Phreaking shocked !!

        What is astounding is the fact that Papa is a retired Magistrate and Military Intelligence, and FogenPhoole spent 7 + years in Criminal Justice and hung out with the cops, his friend Osterman is an ex – cop and not 1 brain cell amongst them said “……maybe we better think this out a little bit more….” Naaaaaaaaa, everybody else is stupid…..

        “The gang that couldn’t lie straight”

        Reply
        • mountainmanpat says:
          February 16, 2013 at 11:35 am

          To quote junior

          “Dad’s American race”……..WTF?

          I have yet to see a questionnaire where “American” is a box that can be checked in regards to ones race.

          So instead of “Afro Peruvian” LMAO……it should be “Afro Peruvian American” to include his dad’s race.

          He also mentions slaves in Peru…….trying to insinuate that his ancestry goes back to Peruvian slaves?

          Give me a break………………………………….

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 12:47 pm

            PhoolishPhantasticalPhantasiePhromFogensPhuckingPhamily.

            Just sayin ………………..

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 7:46 am

            Boy do we ever need a new thread, this one is taking almost half a minute to load.

            Anyway; Bill probably wanted a quiet interview where he could operate on the issues in a way that RZJ never does: Sensibly!

            Now that RZJ has openly stated that his family is African/Peruvian he’s cut GZ and the families fund raising efforts off from the white supremacists. If so, we’re going to hear a whole lot of screaming for money in the next few weeks.

            Anyone who visits the Pro Z sites should be sure to thank them, one and all for there unbiased support of this fine upstanding African Peruvian family. Be sure to remark “who says you guys can’t be cured of your racism?” LOL, I’m sure they’ll get a kick out of that, since the new racism is to deny that there’s any such thing as racism.
            It’ll also tie them in knots. Just as well.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 6:15 pm

            28 seconds before I was able to type. And this computer is rocket fast.

            Afro – Peruvian….This clown has no idea what to say. You’re right, no more mention of FogenPhoole at the Klan meetings!!!! I know for fact the donations are at a dribble, some days $0.00 and some days a whopping $100.00 !!

            MMP said he donated 0.02 which cost FogenPhoole 28 cents to process. Hmmmmmmm maybe there are a lot of “donations” that are well……..not exactly helping. Oh….and remember O’ Mara said they were not taking donations from racists.

            Sooooooooo that would mean MMP is the only one !! ?? Take a bow my man !!

      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:26 am

        The other stupid thing is even if there was a crime spree, it does not mean Fogenhats should add to it by stalking and murdering a kid for trying to get home with freakin Skittles

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:57 am

        I actually watched it now

        I dont think Junior realized that Bill Maher was making fun of him

        Bill repeatedly said to him

        “You were not there, you do not know that….”

        “You can not honestly be objective…”

        Now Junior is saying Stand Your Ground does not apply LOL

        He is now claiming Fogenhats was unable to retreat

        Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:56 am

      Paranoid about “crime” that he believed happened only by black males.

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 16, 2013 at 10:08 am

      I’ll answer that by quoting Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe

      “..he was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore…” “..he was the perfect storm…”

      Read that as : He’s a vigilante since there was no crime spree.

      However, FogenPhooles a racist and said “…these assholes they always get away….” showing he’s a racist vigilante.

      That was simple…..

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:24 am

        He was too mad because Trayvon had the new Tropical Skittles

        He could not take it anymore

        Fogenhats only had 40 cents, he could not buy them like Trayvon

        Perhaps if Fogenhats did not stalk, attack, and murder Trayvon, he could have shared Skittles with Fogenhats and also lent him some money

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 11:51 am

          I share Skittles all the time, no big deal.

          “…what are you doin’ round here..”

          “…not much, just walking home homie…”

          “…you sure ’bout that….been a lot of break in’s…”

          “…really, I hadn’t heard, but here, have some Skittles, they always put ya in a good mood..”

          “…wow, thanks, my wife never cooks and I’m starvin’….thanks !!”

          See………easy !!

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:07 pm

        Considering Fogenhats’ psychological profile

        He lacks self control

        What he did to Trayvon was beyond an overreaction

        a) There was truly nothing to be suspicious about

        b) He is not a cop and lacks any detective skills to pursue truth

        c) He acts out of anger

        d) There was absolutely no crime committed by the victim Trayvon, and Fogenhats had zero proof of any crime, so he would have no right to follow, or stalk

        e) Theft is a form of an inanimate object. That is what insurance is for. Nothing to take someone’s life over.

        f) The kid simply asked why you were stalking him. A simple “I thought you were doing something wrong…” and the kid could have just said, I am just trying to get home with Skittles for my little brother, you scared the crap out of me, stalking me like that. You are a stranger, I should call the police on you for stalking me like that. The police would have arrived, and Trayvon would be alive, and Fogenhats would not have needed to stage his own injuries and the scene to try and get away with murder.

        g) It was a teenage kid, there was no need to grab the kid out of the blue. He has a right to his personal space.

        h) The kid was screaming for mercy and pleading, just let it go, show some mercy, there was nothing a kid with candy could do to Fogenhats

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 1:35 pm

          Very well said….remember the Nazi’s used to kill people screaming for mercy also…..They stopped people who were just minding their own business and most of them never got home either.

          I’d say FogenPhooles is pretty much bad news.

          Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 16, 2013 at 7:13 pm

        …And that dear friends is fogens red hand.
        |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

        Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 16, 2013 at 5:46 pm

      Jr.’s saying (without even understanding the meaning of his own words, apparently) my wonderful brother did not kill him for being Black, but for being a Criminal, because Blacks are Criminals. My brother doesn’t hate Blacks; he hates Criminals! It’s just a regrettable fact of life that Blacks are Criminals! Don’t blame us for THAT — we’re Afro-Peruvians!

      Reply
  41. ay2z says:
    February 15, 2013 at 11:54 pm

    From the Orlando Sentinel, David Murder Jurors Talk article.

    (I am sure the judge instructions to the jury included SYG)

    This poses some questions for the Trayvon killing case. Couple of points, in the media, the term ‘Trayvon attacked’ or the killer ‘was attacked’ has been common. Attack used as an offensive rather than defensive move aka broken bloodied nose. (broken maybe not, but they’ve put the blood out front and center every chance they get through the media)

    So, through the media, the jury pool may already believe Trayvon was the attacker, vs the shooter grabbing and once Traybon fought back in defense, was gunned down.

    The first line says ‘state failed to combat …. the self-defense claim’ of the killer, and in the second paragraph, the juror says prosecution failed to prove NOT JUSTIFIABLE’ homicide.

    I understood that it was the defense that had to prove justifiable, or SYG, but when included with the trial, the jurors, not the judge, made the ruling on self defense as part of the trial verdict?

    Medical proof wanted by the jurors, the prosecution so far, has no medical proof of a negative, skull fractures, no definitive proof of broken nose, concussion, etc.

    Last comment by the defense lawyer, shows that the jury did consider the SYG within the trial.

    I’m confused about SYG, I thought that was a judge’s ruling in a pre-trial hearing and if it goes into the trial proper, the judge decides (according to Pipitone’s report on click orlando.).

    If potential jurors know about SYG and have their own interpretations of the law and how it’s applied, as has been the topic of media discussion (ie: Houston 8, PBS panel), how can the jury be expected to apply the law for a verdict without being on side with the defense?

    Article quote-

    “Another juror, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said the state failed to combat Davis Sr.’s self-defense claim.

    “I did not believe that there was enough evidence that the prosecution presented to prove that it was not a justifiable [homicide],” she said, adding that the jury “knew that he had been attacked” by his son.

    “Neither the prosecution, nor the defense, denied that,” she said.

    The juror said she would have liked to have seen evidence of the extent of Davis Sr.’s injuries: “There was no medical proof at all of anything, which is one thing we wish we’d had.”

    After the verdict Thursday night, prosecutor Jim Altman said the state did its job at trial.

    “We presented all the facts to the jury, they were instructed on the law,” he said. “That’s our system.”

    Defense attorney Robert Nesmith said jurors “did a wonderful job in analyzing the evidence and, in particular, making a correlation between the ‘stand your ground’ [law] and the evidence that we presented.”

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 12:41 pm

      The way I see it

      The forensics and ballistics and the witnesses put a damper on any of Fogenhats claims

      Trayvon would be looked at like Davis Sr. in the case, because Fogenhats was the one who followed Trayvon (aggravated stalking) and would not leave the kid alone and respect his personal space

      Once Fogenhats caught Trayvon, he confronted Trayvon and then attacked Trayvon (w18 noted that Fogenhats was using an angry voice, commanding and controlling) (w8 heard Trayvon after asking Fogenhats why he was stalking him, then heard Trayvon say GET OFF)

      But the thing is, Trayvon cant even be looked at like Davis Sr., because Trayvon was literally found not red handed, no foreign dna on his hands sleeves cuffs, so he did not even attack Fogenhats in self defense, although the kid had the right

      All Trayvon did was scream for help and out of fear

      Then the defendant killed the kid

      The only person on scene who was caught red handed was Fogenhats, as he had blood on his hands, and was the only party of the two with blood on his hands

      The blood on his nose, looks like he smeared it on himself there as it was drying and not even bleeding, off the tip of his nose

      The blood drip pattern on the defendant’s head showed that he was upright the whole time he was bleeding there, but titled his head forward at a 45 degree angle, hence it dripping toward his chin

      I think it is safe to say, he was caught redhanded killing the kid and redhanded in regards to his own injuries

      I think the main part of it that is similar is Fogenhats followed Trayvon to attack him, as that was his intent, shown by the fact he attacked Trayvon once he caught him

      Just like Davis Sr’s son followed him

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:52 pm

        @Jun or anyone else. Can someone please tell me where to find info on the Davis Sr. case — a link, State, first name. When I Google, too much is returned and none of it is in the State of Florida.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:19 pm

        I just googled it

        This SYG law is crazy

        but the main difference is the state did not sound confident

        Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:30 pm

      Thanks for this info! i’m going to check it out. it’s VERY interesting!!!!!
      but i couldn’t tell what was written by the Orlando sentinel and what you were making points about! lol

      about what Tony Pipitone said about the SYG: you are correct and he is wrong.

      If gz has the Immunity hearing along side the murder 2 trial the jury will only give a verdict on the murder 2 and the lessors and NOT the immunity part.

      So what would happen would be once the trial/hearing was all finished the Judge would rule on immunity 1st. If she does not grant gz immunity the jurors would be handed the case and go ahead with deliberations and render their verdict.

      If the judge grants gz immunity then the jurors would go home and gz would walk out as a free man. And world would never be right again.

      BUTTTTTT, can someone please tell us how likely it would be that gz would be given even MORE special treatment by allowing the immunity hearing and trial simultaneously?? has anyone else been allowed to do this? and what can we do to prevent this? because i damn sure don’t want him to have this advantage!
      AND IT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE in all kinds of ways, one being financially, and another is the same thing that OS article was talking about shifting the burden back to the state in front of the jury!!!!
      BTW, is that what this David case did?? he had them both at the same time???

      Reply
  42. Looolooo says:
    February 15, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    Am I the only one here who’s pissed?! Bill blew it! He threw nothing but softballs at Jr., just like Geraldo, Hannity, Piers, and every other interviewer has. Damn it! He never even mentioned the total lack of GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands, the fact that GZ refused to go a Dr. that night, Trayvon was not an octopuss, GZ’s history of aggressive and confrontational behavior, nor his numerous everchanging scenarios. And to add insult to injury,….. he (Bill) compliments him by stating that he’s a good spokesman, and WILL have a very nice career in television. WTF!

    And on top of all that, he claimed that Christopher Dorner was a racist who disliked Fahreed Zakharia becasue he’s Indian with brown skin, and should be deported. Huh? I read his manifesto, and he simply stated that he thought FZ was anti-American, and thats why he thinks he should be deported. I love FZ, but I also think that he displays anti-American tendencies. As does arrogant Piers Morgan (also mentioned), whom I agree with in regards to gun control C. Dorner was an out right murderer, whom I suspect got railroaded, and the L.A. PD are covering up something big. We’ll see.

    Well I can only hope that RZJ agrees to an interview with Lawrence O’Donnell and or Martin Bashir.

    Reply
    • towerflower says:
      February 15, 2013 at 11:54 pm

      It was disappointing to say the least. I would love him to really be interviewed with the facts of the case thrown at him.

      Reply
    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 11:58 pm

      looo- I was disgusted with Maher’s comment to Jr about him being a good spokesman and has a future in the industry…Jr.’s head just got bigger.
      I will admit…he is good at deflecting a question that he can’t answer, it just pisses me off that none of these hosts have enough brains or you know what to address it or bring up the pertinent issues. Are they afraid he will get mad and walk off the set? I just don’t get it.

      Reply
      • Looolooo says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:19 am

        I’m with you CNYL…..I just don’t get it either.:-( I really hate to say this, but ….. this may be a case that calls for an African American interviewer such as Tavis Smiley, Roland (even though he annoys me) Martin, Toure’ (him too), Johanathan Capehart (he’s brilliant), Charles Blow, etc., or even Oprah at this point. I just don’t feel that the various non-black interviewers understand, notice, or care enough about the obvious racial under and over tones of this case. 😦

        What do you guys think?

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 16, 2013 at 8:48 am

        As a Caucasian I think the interviewers are not doing their job.

        You know who has the audience and the intelligence and could do a good job of this? Barbara Walters.

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 16, 2013 at 8:50 am

        ALso, we know from last summer that the Z crew make demands on the interviewers, so we can surmise that Jr is getting paid in some way for his appearance. Why Bill Maher didn’t mention the Randy Hahn interview is another dereliction of duty.

        Reply
      • diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:49 am

        I am really not sure why these shows agree to have Jr as a guest. Frankly, if Bill would have asked Jr. ANYTHING specific about the case, Jr’s answer would have been conjecture, so why bother? Jr was not there the night go Feb 26. What makes Jr’s opinion more important than yours or mine? I agree with the interviewers’ staying away from direct lines of questioning concerning the events of that night. The questions he asked called for conjecture. Anything about that night… Jr was not there.

        My issue is simple… Why feed this guy in the first place by inviting him on their shows? He really has nothing to offer except entertainment and ratings.

        Reply
      • diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:57 am

        The topic that Jr should be asked about is why he has such a “We are not racist” message when he aligns himself with known racists. Put it back in Jr and only Jr. Jr’s antics are no longer about GZ. They are all about Jr. Keep the questioning where it belongs.

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:36 pm

        Maybe Maher can get jr a bit part on the future remake of a show like ‘Murder She Wrote’, just like where Maher started.

        That would be a springboard into politics has he’s alluded to.

        I feared that Maher would be a soft joke to junior, not going to watch this.

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:14 am

      As disappointing as this might sound, responsible journalists and their producers are not going to litigate the case in the media. Before GZ was arrested, we heard from many of them and they were standing in line trying to get someone to appear. The goal was to get out the information and jump start the State of Florida into conducting an investigation.

      I have spoken with some reporters and the general response I’ve received is, “We don’t need to.” Let me emphasize the word “need.” Junior is not an attorney for the defense. Responsible journalists give him no honor of respect of being qualified to discuss facts about his brother’s case.

      Has anyone noticed that Junior is not being interviewed after hearings? O’Mara is. Think of the possibility that O’Mara has spoken to the media and said to keep the mic out of Junior’s face. The more Junior talks, the more motions for continuances will be denied because his aim is to taint the jury pool. The court is moving GZ’s case along as quickly as possible so that Junior will STFU.

      Additionally, let’s take a clue from Junior. What is his mantra? Race. The federal investigation is ongoing. Each time Junior opens his mouth, he tells federal investigators that his family consists of members who have racial identity crisis.

      Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:58 am

        I think the media folks who do give him a platform to spread his lies should cease this BS. tainting a possible jury pool is exactly what he wants to do and those media outlets who have in on, are just giving him the opportunity to do just that.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:39 am

        They do not need to litigate the case but a responsible journalist is about presenting the truth to the community or perhaps opinions

        They should double check Junior’s statements before allowing it to air because a lot of it was false

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 16, 2013 at 8:53 am

        So, if Sean told the interviewers “we don’t need you to do that,” they wouldn’t. They would emphasize the the word “need,” unlike the defendant, and thus can’t latch onto the crime that was committed.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 4:21 pm

          @Cercando

          So, if Sean told the interviewers “we don’t need you to do that,” they wouldn’t. They would emphasize the the word “need,” unlike the defendant, …

          Yep. You got it.

          Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:55 pm

        Xena I read your comment about this last night and it helped me sleep better! 🙂

        I was furious with what I saw and then to top it off Bill tells him he’d be a good spokesman! it’s so irritating when he keeps getting the attention he wants!! It’s not like he’s had to make any sacrifices for it either. Like if these interviewers were to spank and humiliate his ass like he deserves! JUST ONCE i’s love to see that happen! And NO, I don’t want a black person to do it, I want a white person to do it! If he went on Capphart’s or someone the idiots would just say it was because they were black!
        It has to be a white person so they will stop saying this issue is divided by race! I hate to hear that, especially since I know it’s NOT TRUE! Stupid Geraldo said that the other day and I really could feel my blood burning!! And then last night I sat there and stared and almost started crying! really!!! it’s so frustrating to see this over and over again! But i came here and found your comment and it made me feel much, much better. Thanks for your wisdom, I’m know I’m not the only one who needs to hear it!

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 16, 2013 at 6:13 pm

          @Shannon,

          The “Zimmerman” clan (as claimed by Jr.) are Jews who changed their names to something German because they feared Hitler’s wrath?

          While Jr.’s lineage is a little murky, Senior Zim’s is plenty clear, since his father was here in the US of A long before Herr Schickelgruber turned into the uber-Nazi.

          If Jews were adopting non-Hasidic names, who would they take on “Zimmerman?” Why not Kelly?
          How many Kellys keep a kosher kitchen?

          Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 6:37 pm

          @Shannon. No, thank YOU! Regarding Black journalists, apparently Junior doesn’t want to interview with them. He ran out of bigoted racists and went to a snarker on cable — didn’t realize that the career statement is because Junior is unemployed.

          Reply
          • shannoninmiami says:
            February 16, 2013 at 6:47 pm

            LOL yeah after i saw it mentioned here that the spokesman comment was probably meant to be sarcastic, it sure makes it a lot easier to swallow!!

            as for black journalists. i have a feeling jr would go on ANYWHERE he could! he’s such a smuck he thinks he could out wit them! LOLO i tweeted some idiot who was kissing up to Mahar and jr by agreeing w. him that jr could have a career in show business and interesting dialog.
            I said, So you think this uneducated buffoon’s> @ JR repeating same old dog whistles interesting dialog, you should at least expect some originality for your money!
            I wrote them back saying

    • camanokat says:
      February 16, 2013 at 3:06 am

      LAPD corruption? Heaven forbid. I lived in WLA and the Marina for a dozen years. The corruption is legendary. And I’m a white, middle class mom.

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 16, 2013 at 8:16 am

      “(Bill) compliments him by stating that he’s a good spokesman, and WILL have a very nice career in television.”

      Knowing Bill, he may have meant that sarcastically or in a bi-level kinda way.

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:47 pm

        Bill was taking a snark at Junior being unemployed.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:43 pm

        I think maybe Bill also just let Jr. run on because although he speaks intelligently, he’s no more credible than many spokespeople on the far right. He might have been amused by letting Jr’s tapes unwind. It doesn’t necessarily take a lot of hard questions or sparring to reveal the nonsense. They do that quite well themselves, just as Fogen did on Hannity with a supportive interview. I’ve always felt that Piers and everyone else has done just fine with him. Why stoop to his level?

        Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      February 16, 2013 at 2:19 pm

      I know. The vein in my neck started to pulsate when I heard him start with a (stupid, unnecessary) falsehood:

      That racism is complicated because black Dorner wanted Fareed deported because he’s brown and has an accent. In fact, Dorner said Fareed should be deported – instead of Piers – because Fareed had nothing good to say about America, while Piers did – in Dorner’s opinion. I am sure Dorner knew people are not deported for either their opinions or their skin colour. So, it’s clear the statement was tongue-in-cheek.

      Bill is ordinarily very sharp, so that opening was fawning and pathetic.

      I do not understand the purpose of the interview. Robert Zimmerman is a documented liar. His statements to media about what his brother did that night were shown to be false when George’s own statements to police were released.

      If Bill wasn’t prepared to do a good job, why do the interview?

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:31 pm

        This seemed to be a standard interview, one for information, not laughs. Maher’s previous rush-to-judgement-before-any-evidence-released comments may have also played a part. Besides, what better way to improve ratings?

        Reply
        • xy11xy says:
          February 16, 2013 at 2:58 pm

          Well let’s see….

          1. What is your race?

          paraphrase: Afro-Peruvian

          2. But Zimmerman is a Jewish name?

          Robert Zimmerman: “It is and I think that our father is, ah, from German descent…”

          3. But not Jewish?

          paraphrase: No, German Jews changed their names to Zimmerman to hide from Nazis and his father is descended from one of those Germans.

          Makes it sound like he’s saying his father is one of those German Jews who changed their names to Zimmerman to hide from the Nazis.

          A little sleight-of-hand there….

          Robert Zimmerman thinks he’s a very clever fast-talker.

          Reply
        • jm says:
          February 16, 2013 at 3:00 pm

          bettykath says: “This seemed to be a standard interview, one for information, not laughs. Maher’s previous rush-to-judgement-before-any-evidence-released comments may have also played a part.,,,,:

          What information did we get? Per GZ per RZ, Jr, he was not on watch, but rather going to Target.

          GZ’s head was beat into cement and a “doctor” diagnosed GZ with a broken nose. That’s not true according to evidence I have seen.

          The only information I got was when Bill Maher pointed out people wear hoodies when it rains and RZ, Jr agreed and audience applauded in agreement and that without a gun involved this would be a fight with a winner and a loser – not a dead kid walking home from the store to a condo where he was staying in the community, to which the audience applauded in agreement.

          Oh yeah I did find out RZ, Jr has been in trouble with the law before but he takes the fifth as to what kind of trouble. It was kind of like typical info as a result of diarrhea of the mouth coming from the Zimmerman KKKlan.

          Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:35 pm

        I know I was sure disappointed! However, I do think there were a few times that he was actually mocking Jr. and Jr. didn’t get it, as well, every time anyone gives Jr. a chance to open his mouth, they watch him put his foot in it, so that is always good. But yeah, still a disappointment considering.

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:12 pm

        Maher involved with police and murder investigations earlier in hs career.

        Reply
  43. racerrodig says:
    February 15, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    Since there is the “Team Trayvon Warriors” on Xena’s blog, I’ll share a song I rewrote over there, since this an open thread

    True Warriors For Trayvon Martin

    Reply
  44. rnewton32 says:
    February 15, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    At first I was kinda angry at Maher for not being more agressive, but now I think his use of humor actually got junior to see the obvious like people where hoodies when it rains, not to break into homes.

    Reply
  45. towerflower says:
    February 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    It was very tame. I was surprised that considering how Bill Maher has responded before on the subject it was an easy pass for Jr.

    One of the things I noted is that with all the uproar of GZ’s media classification of “white-Hispanic”, Jr. classifies their family as afro-Peruvian……..no mention of any white from his father’s side.

    Jr. admitted he has had scrapes with the law but won’t say what.

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm

      WTF?

      How lame

      Did he try lying on air?

      Reply
    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm

      I have no proof, but I think I read somewhere that he might have had a dwi or dui or something…me thinks he likes his drink at night.

      Reply
    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:35 pm

      Maher let Jr. go on too long with same crap about his we are first and foremost American…but we aare afro-peruvian. When asked about his last name sounding Jewish, Jr explained that it’s German and he thinks that the Jewish adopted the name to hide the fact that they were jewish back then.

      I like the part when Jr. was trying to explain how things change fast, such as florida weather. He went on to say that it could be raining lightly, then pouring and Maher says, ” that’s why you wear hoodies” and Jr. laughs and says, “right”….I don’t think Jr got it.LOL

      Reply
      • towerflower says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:41 pm

        He also never really gave an explanation for GZ’s changing story from he’s up to no good on the NEN call to he was looking into windows at the PD. He just went into the HIGH crime rate of Sanford. I wish he had gone into other areas of his changing stories about that night. But like I said it was very tame.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:59 pm

        w18 – this is a nice neighborhood and stuff like this does not happen

        w2 – I never noticed any rash of break ins

        Mary Cutcher & Room mate – Never noticed any rash of break ins

        Police reports – no rash of break ins either

        Hmmmm

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 11:06 pm

          So you’re saying he lied ?? I’m Pfreaking shocked !!
          FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhamilysPhantasys…..

          Say that 5 times real fast !

          Reply
      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:29 pm

        Jun-
        Maher: There was a fight- all I’m saying is without the guns involved,it would’ve been just a guy who lost a fight.
        Jr.: I think it, I in…(audience applauding) I agree that’s a factor and its worth talking about, it’s a conversation we should have, but I think people like George and other concealed carriers may have that weapon to begin with be ause of the situation they find themselves in and it wasn’t 90210 it was Sanford, fl

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 12:01 am

          HA! Junior isn’t smart enough to know that he agreed GZ did not kill Trayvon in self-defense. Neither is he smart enough to know that by deflecting to a geographical location, he demonstrates that GZ racially profiled Trayvon.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:32 pm

        Okay I am disappointed in Bill Maher

        Junior is still trying to put across the dangerous incident issue when it is not, except for the victim Trayvon

        At least Junior admitted that Trayvon did not bring any dangerous situation, and Bill never stated Fogenhats would have been the loser in the fight, just that a guy would lose the fight, that is it

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:35 pm

        Jr. doesn’t seem to comprende 92010 either. :-/

        Reply
      • MelRoy says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:09 pm

        I thought when I heard that, “I bet nobody in his family has self-identified as Afro-anything prior to March 2012”.

        By the way, German Jews didn’t call themselves by German names to hide their background from the Nazis. The reason is a 1787 decree by Emperor Joseph II, requiring all Jews in the Austro Hungarian Empire to give up their Jewish names and adopt German ones.

        I thought it was odd of Maher to ask RZ if he was Jewish – twice.

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 12:24 am

          @MelRoy

          Maher’s mother is Jewish.

          I thought it odd that Maher did not know when Hitler swept into power, and that he could not do the math re ZimmJrs’s parents’ age.

          That Maher did not say, “Wait a minute – Hitler? Adolf the Hitler? What did Hitler have to do with this? You making all this stuff up?”

          Nor sense the strange way Jr. separated himself and his Bro from their father, racially.

          Jr.’s new whining complaint: “We’re being persecuted because we are Afro-Peruvians,

          victims of Adolph Hitler. Pity us. How could we be racially prejudiced, as Afro-Peruvians with kinship to persecuted Jews?” (“A-P/PJ”s)

          “We’re originally from Minnesota” just doesn’t sound that, umm .. dramatic.

          Or colorful.

          Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 15, 2013 at 11:29 pm

      Scrapes with the law, well little (or big) brother was purported to have a squeeky clean record.

      What is junior’s full name? Middle name, initial, and does he use Jr. on his official signature?

      Not encouraging a search for the wrong people on a guess-mission.

      Chances are, senior would have helped both his boys out of law scrapes, if he could.

      Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 15, 2013 at 11:34 pm

      when did jr classify himself as afro Peruvian, was it in the 1st like 2 minutes of the 5 minute interview? because I missed some of the worst softass interview EVER!

      Reply
      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:47 pm

        Yes it was at the very begining.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:09 am

        Afro-Peruvian??

        LOL. Great idea. That ought to move the killer’s donors to dig deeper and deeper in their pockets for more cash to donate.

        Why, they’re just all about Afro-Peruvians over at the Treehouse, aren’t they?

        Reply
        • shannoninmiami says:
          February 16, 2013 at 12:00 pm

          Yes Groans didn’t you know?
          They love to mix it up!

          that’s what his um…how should I say, *stepmom* Glayds the Peruvian queen says, she insists they are NOT Indian Peruvians they are AFRO Peruvians!!

          And I think I figured out what the family doesn’t want anyone to know.
          I think papaz had his cake and ate it too. I think he was eff’in her sister and her and that’s how Robert jr, and gz were conceived. And that would be why she accidentally slipped and said she thinks of all the kids as *hers* on the Spanish TV show. LOL that’s been a rumor for awhile. but no one really wanted to bring it up because it doesn’t have anything to do with the case… but since they want to go and drag Tray and his family through the mud, I feel it’s time for THEIR TRUTH to come out!
          at least I’m not coming out with a bunch of lies about the zimmers!

          Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:27 am

      total softball

      lame

      from what I hear at least Junior let up on all the lying

      Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 16, 2013 at 7:12 am

      Maybe he believes the Afro-Peruvian “shields”him from racism, using it selectvely instead of white when it benefits him, or maybe Sr is not biodad.

      Reply
      • annahkonda says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:27 am

        Rachel, I know my circuits are overloaded, but I recall reading that RZ,Jr. and GZ are the adopted sons of Mama Z’s sister.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 11:26 am

          The reality is that they’re still trying to figure out who the real dad is.
          The reality is they’re also trying to figure out who the real mom is.

          The reality is that from my 57 year old white male view, the Zidiots keep going down the “typical black family with no dad” crap and that Trayvon would have wound up as a chalk outline anyway and yet they don’t see the massive hypocrisy every time they open their mouths…….or type on a keyboard.

          Hmmmmmm Imagine that ??

          Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:02 pm

        I think we have a winner!!!

        Reply
  46. ChrisNY~Laurie says:
    February 15, 2013 at 9:40 pm

    Reply
  47. ChrisNY~Laurie says:
    February 15, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    I’ve never watched Live With Bill Maher, but will tonight. I hope Maher still thinks that Fogen is a fat effing liar and lets Jr. know it.

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 15, 2013 at 9:46 pm

      I don’t either because I don’t have cable so I won’t tonight either 😦

      Reply
    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 9:59 pm

      I don’t know why I watch his interviews knowing that it’s going to be the same old BS that he repeats on every show. I guess I’m just hoping that one of these hosts would grow a set and ask real questions or say what’s really on their minds. Instead they let this dork come on their show and pretend to be some important political figure. 🙄

      Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:20 pm

        Well Bill Maher is not exactly shy and he has been rather outspoken, so I’m hoping he will be the one to kick his ass. If anyone would be, I would think it would be him.

        Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:15 pm

      Note to RZ Jr. Next time spend some $$ on an advertisement that says …………..

      “Want to see me get my ASS KICKED, tune in at XXXXX on XXX”

      Reply
    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:25 pm

      Bill said, something to the effect of, “Without a gun involved, wouldn’t it just have been a guy who lost a fight?” and Jr agreed, but then went into some bs about concealed to carry yada yada yada

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:31 pm

        So Jr. actually agreed that there was no life threatening situation involved from Trayvon?

        I am surprised

        Note that Bill Maher never stated who would have lost the fight

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm

          Jr, Papa Z and FogenPhoole all fall into a trap like that. Then when cornered Jr gets all f’d up when he realizes what he just said.
          Papa, without being asked to elaborate at FogenPhooles bail hearing, said yeah, I heard Fogen scream like that when he was a teenager all the time.

          He was only asked if that was Fogens voice and a yes or no would have sufficed…………but noooooooooooooo he had to elaborate on that, and we’re damn glad of it !!

          Reply
      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:39 pm

        Not in so many words, Jun.
        He said , “right” after Maher’s question, but then went into carrying concealed weapon or something. I DVR’d it…I will go check and report word for word so there won’t be any confusion, but i do think that Jr was out of his element a little due to Maher’s humor. BBS

        Reply
  48. Chocolate Diva says:
    February 15, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    I learned something new everytime I come on this thread.

    Reply
  49. Chocolate Diva says:
    February 15, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    I learned something new everytime I come on this blog.

    Reply
  50. Trained Observer says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    Just read the cu statement. Those two must have been like pigs in slop when money from moron donors started rolling in … and they likely thought big bucks would keep on flowing for a good long while.

    As an aside, just had to laugh at all the ATM fees they were paying. Talk about poor money management.

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 9:02 pm

      @Trained Observer

      Just read the cu statement. Those two must have been like pigs in slop when money from moron donors started rolling in … and they likely thought big bucks would keep on flowing for a good long while.

      LOL!!! Yep, and O’Mara thought so too. None of them took in account how donors felt once betrayed. They didn’t send GZ that money for him to get out debt and lie about it.

      Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:32 pm

        Xena — Yep. Right-wing extremists coughed up money for his defense … they wanted to set a precedent that it’s perfectly OK to knock off a black kid who “looks like he’s on drugs or something.”

        The point of their generosity was to uphold long-held cherished beliefs of white supremacy. They didn’t care about Fogen on a personal basis, and they sure as shootin’ weren’t interested in his debts to AMEX or Sam’s Club, much less paying off his Peruvian mom.

        Once it became known that Fogen himself was no candidate for KKK membership, given his partially hispanic and black DNA, then all bets were off on the money flow. Clearly, this lard brain wasn’t the hero the wing-nuts wanted to pin their hopes on.

        Then along came tragedies like Sandy Hook and other causes took the limelight because we all know how important it is for every home to have an assault rifle or two next to the chewing tobacco.

        With more and more damning facts coming out in the Trayvon Martin slaying (What? You mean the kid didn’t even have a knife on him?), poor old Fogen got lost in the shuffle.

        All but the most die-hard crazies have moved on, and Fogen shouldn’t count on much more from even them.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 10:10 pm

          @Trained Observer. You hit the proverbial nail on the head. When his money ran short, rather than O’Mara deciding it was time to file for GZ’s indigency, he went on Hannity’s program. Junior’s been on the stroll since around October. They are not making a financial windfall. But I guess that GZ just can’t come to terms that his small band of supporters is not going to increase.

          Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm

        I think there might still be a few from the last refuse at the outhouse.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 10:17 pm

          @Rachael. Yeah, they are probably sending post-dated checks with threatening notes such as, “If you don’t file something to beat up on Crump, I’m cancelling this check.”

          Then the check bounces anyway. 🙂

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 10:44 am

            Believe it or not here is a coincidence of fact that is just staggering that 98% of every member of the Zidiot Nation has in common.
            On another site I found out that most Zidiots live in a similar style dwelling. If you ask nice I’ll tell you.

          • cielo62 says:
            February 17, 2013 at 10:11 pm

            Racer rodig- what is a mobile home or trailer? I’ll take Zidiot dwellings for $6000, Alex.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 11:15 pm

            I’ll need a ruling from the judges….The correct answer is 40 feet long 8 foot with with 2 axles……judges ??

            Close enough we have a winner !!

      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 7:56 am

        Many of Fogen’s supporters have stated time and again on various blogs and on FB that they’re just fine with helping him with his living expenses.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 4:31 pm

          @Two sides

          Many of Fogen’s supporters have stated time and again on various blogs and on FB that they’re just fine with helping him with his living expenses.

          They’re not doing a good job at it. O’Mara said he needs $30,000 a month in donations in order to provide a good defense and cover GZ’s living expenses. $28,000 owed to AIS and his fund was down to $5,000 until several weeks ago and O’Mara’s last report was that it’s up to $18,000. GZ is spending about $3,000 a month on security, and $3,000 a month for his extended stay hotel room. That doesn’t include food, laundry, hygiene, etc.

          Reply
      • Puck says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:14 am

        @racerrodig: I’m asking nicely. I’m hoping the answer is trailer parks, lol.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 11:46 am

          Let me ask the judges……. is “trailer parks” close enough……

          The full answer is “…40 feet long, 8 feet wide usually with 2 axles…”
          That’s close enough and …………we have a winner !! (confetti falling, horns blowing)

          Reply
      • Puck says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:33 pm

        @racerrodig Where did you find that information?

        Reply
    • groans says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:07 am

      @Trained Observer: “Like pigs in slop” !!

      I cannot stop laughing! It says what we all (or most of us) were sensing but were unable to describe adequately! And the image … I still can’t even shake it yet, and probably never will!

      YOU WIN my literary award for Best Simile (?) of the Year!

      Congratulations, and thanks for the great laugh — as well as for all the inevitable future chuckles when it pops back into my mind again!

      Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 16, 2013 at 4:35 pm

      Pigs in slop!!
      Yep! didn’t you hear them giddy and giggling like a couple of teenagers on the jail tapes talking about what a GREAT life they’re gonna have after this is over so they shouldn’t let the *small things* worry them & what a role model gz is? and don’t forget it’s time for shellie to tell everyone to start speaking up and show them exactly how much they support them!
      yeah, pigs in slop! that’s what they are.

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 16, 2013 at 11:32 pm

      They sure sounded like fools in paradise during the jailhouse calls. Peter Pan! Heaven! $$$! Fame! The good life!

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 17, 2013 at 1:07 am

        And how’s that “..role model..” stuff working out Fogen. Role model for who…..”Blimps ‘R Us”

        By the way…..take $37.00 and stick it………where the sun don’t shine.

        Reply
  51. Trained Observer says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    how much it cost, rather, not how it cost

    Reply
  52. Trained Observer says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    Many thanks for the backgrounder and the link. Am wondering how it cost to nail down the domain and get his begging site going?

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:44 pm

      Since GZ used private registration, that probably cost him $35-$50 for the year. IIRC, he registered the domain through Go Daddy and they have $9.99 specials along with WYSIWYG programs.

      Reply
  53. Joe Butera says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    Dear Sir,
    I am arguing with someone on the fact that Neighborhood watch does not have stop and question authority, but they keep throwing the Constitution of Freedom of Speech in my face without any law to cite for their opinion. Please, were would I look for a law which states that I do not have the right to stop and question someone walking on my sidewalk in my neighborhood?

    Thank you!

    With respect,
    Joe

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm

      @Joe Butera

      Please, were would I look for a law which states that I do not have the right to stop and question someone walking on my sidewalk in my neighborhood?

      Joe, it’s the same First Amendment right of freedom of speech that applies to everyone. Freedom of speech works both ways. If a person thinks that freedom of speech gives them authority to question someone who they think is suspicious, that same amendment provides that the other person can tell them to f**k off; it’s none of their f’ing business what they are doing, and if they don’t like it, call the cops.

      Freedom of speech does not give Americans authority to deprive others of liberty.

      The people you are debating with are not actually debating freedom of speech. Rather, they are debating authority under the color of freedom of speech. I could write a thesis on this subject. In actually, for anyone to take authority over others beyond the scope of what is deputized to them by the government, is believing that others have no rights.

      To say it another way, the only way a person can think that freedom of speech can be used to exercise authority over the liberty of others, is to believe that person has no rights or in the alternative, their rights are unequal, and only allowed to be exercised if they submit to “sovereign citizens.”

      Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      February 18, 2013 at 3:56 am

      @Joe,

      Before responding to your question, I have to ask, when you refer to “my” neighborhood and “my” sidewalk, is this land and infrastructure that you personally own?

      Are you interrogating trespassers? If, for example, you were a developer and had put in the

      roads, and you had not yet sold lots or houses, and the sidewalks were not dedicated yet as city streets, well, you (and your investors) could interrogate a trespasser – but to compel an answer or attempt to move the stranger, you would have to enlist help from law enforcement.

      On the other hand if you’re referrig to “the neighborhood I live in” you can cheerfully ask all you want but the stranger has no obligation to respond. He’s minding his business, he wants you to mind yours.

      If you observe the commission of a crime or what you have cause to believe is a crime, then you call the cops. The alleged “criminal” does not even have to respond to their questions, under Miranda.

      Nevertheless it is one security tactic you can use if you “have your suspicions” unless those suspicions include the possibility of him shooting or harming you in any way.

      It’s the “Hi, Neighbor!” greeting, with a friendly conversation. No guarantee he’ll talk to you (doesn’t have to), no guarantee he’ll tell you the truth; but – he’ll sure know you are keeping an eye on him.

      So — you have the right to greet anyone in your neighborhood. He has the right to ignore you.

      Reply
  54. Trained Observer says:
    February 15, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    Ladystclaire — refresh me, please. I’ve seen passing references to Fogen’s mailing activities but don’t have a clear picture of what he’s suspected of shipping/sending/mailing by USPS or Fed Ex or whatever carrier … with what frequency… to who … or even how any such info might be known.

    Mailed an envelope yesterday and it cost $1.72. …. The Fogens seemed to be on the financial skids … did they have an addictive love for post office activity? Just askin 😉

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 7:57 pm

      @Trained Observer. Ready to connect the dots? According to the credit union statements, on 4/1/12, the opening balance on GZ’s account was $370.45. He had not worked since Feb. 2012.

      On 4/6/12, GZ’s parents loaned him $3,000. This is reasoned out because it was a deposit of cash and later, he paid them that amount. That same day, he spent $135.00 with the U.S. Postal Service. Later that same day, there were two ATM cash withdrawals for a combined total of $400.00 (and $3.00 each ATM fee) and a purchase at KFC in Cambridge, MD.

      Keep in mind that GZ left his house in a rush during the wee hours of 2/27/12 and moved in with the Osterman’s. Mark Osterman stated that GZ remained in his house for 6 wks. It is reasonable to presume that GZ left the Osterman’s on 4/6/12.

      GZ did not open his begging site until that following weekend, and the first transfer of money from the Paypal account was not until 4/9/12. Something was important enough for him to use borrowed money to conduct a transaction at the U.S. Postal Service and then get the heck out of town.

      It is my suspicion that GZ was in possession of stolen jewelry that he sold on eBay; had received the money and had to ship the products. He needed to do that in order to prevent carrying the stolen property with him.

      When GZ drove into Jacksonville on 4/12, he had a laptop and flash drive with him. Although there are reported rumors that the feds found an eBay account on that laptop, that has not yet been publicly confirmed.

      Click to access bank-records.pdf

      Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:28 pm

        There are other possibilities:

        a. a money order
        b. a whole lot of stamps.
        c. customs duty on a parcel to himself.
        d. passport application (for Shellie?)
        e. etc.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm

          @Dave Re: Other possibilities.

          Now, a passport for ShelLIE sounds reasonable. 🙂

          A money order? Doubt it. His parents could have written out a check to pay a bill for him. My guess is 13 overnight deliveries.

          Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:38 pm

        The fees for a first-time passport application are a total of…..$135.00!

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 8:46 pm

          @Dave.

          The fees for a first-time passport application are a total of…..$135.00!

          Are you serious?!?!?!!!! So that MF and his wife were planning on disappearing rather than facing justice.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:53 pm

        Shellie already had a passport. They speak about that in the jailhouse calls.

        One of my family members had their passport stolen last May and had to replace it. I believe it was more like $145, not $135.

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:54 pm

        OMG!!!

        Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:00 pm

        http://www.travel.state.gov/passport/fees/fees_837.html

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 9:20 pm

          Dave, thanks for the link. You certainly have me thinking now. I wonder if it was ShelLIE who went to the post office and got a passport while GZ hit the road. If she already had one, I wonder if GZ applied for a first time passport using another name and ID.

          Well, maybe the feds know.

          Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:02 pm

        Where do they speak about She’lLie’s passport? I only recall GZ saying he thought his passport was in some bag and she told him not to worry, she had one in a safe deposit box for him and he told her to hold onto it.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 10:12 pm

          @Rachael. I don’t remember ShelLIE saying anything about having a passport for herself. I’ll have to go back through discovery for the copy of the application GZ filed for a replacement passport.

          Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:33 pm

        Here is how I remember it. In 2004, GZ can’t find his passport so he reports it stolen, and gets another one. He finds it, so he has two passports. One of the passports expires in May of this year, and the other expires in 2014.

        At his bond hearing, he is ordered to turn in his passport, so he gives the one that expires in May of this year.

        Then while he is in jail he says he thinks his passport is in a bag and She’lLie says she has one in the safe deposit box and he tells her to hold onto that.

        But I don’t remember anything about having her own passport.

        It is almost like he had 2 on purpose just in case something ever happened. An Omen.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:44 am

        @Dave: OMG!! WOW!! That was amazing brainstorming you did right before our eyes.

        The Post Office payment of $135 = cost of a first-time passport?! Coincidence? Or something else?

        If it is “something else” but has not been raised in any of the killer’s bond and conditions hearings, is prosecution unaware of it? Or … maybe the “something else” really is just a whole bunch of Forever stamps? Or … perhaps there’s someone else who is more “of interest” with respect to the “something else”?

        Hmmm……. It certainly offers new food for thought – including whether it might be affecting the wife’s trial schedule and/or attendance at the killer’s court appearances.

        Thanks!

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:55 am

        @Xena – My apologies for not mentioning you! You and Dave were brainstorming together. (And I just basically said in 200 words what you said in a couple dozen.)

        I can’t help but wonder now if there’s some negotiating with the missus going on.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 3:06 am

          @groans. I so appreciate the brainstorming. So many times I’ve shared on this blog about the $135 transaction at the post office, and not feeling good today (getting over a cold), I started not to post about it in answer to a question. Glad I did.

          (Palm hit) What Dave pointed out caused me to look at the credit union’s statement again. The $135.00 post office transaction is on pg 24 under ShelLIE’s account. This puts to rest my suspicion that GZ used the money to ship out stolen property he sold on eBay.

          More dots. On April 6, 2012, GZ’s attorney in the civil case against Aames filed a document in the case in federal court reporting that in July 2011, the Aames bankruptcy trustee submitted $18,000 to GZ. GZ did not pay any costs or fees from the money as agreed. Neither had GZ told his attorney about the money. Attny Pantas found out through the Aames’ bankruptcy trustee.

          So, on April 6, 2012, the ca-ca hit the fan for GZ. That whole New Black Panther Party being outside of Osterman’s house was a story I didn’t buy. GZ had not met Serino in late March at FDLE like he said he would. Chances are that Osterman told GZ he would not harbor him once he was charged and GZ had reason to believe that the investigation resulted in evidence to charge him. GZ had to hit the road and even more, he evidently planned to leave the country.

          The problem for GZ and ShelLIE is that they didn’t have money to leave the country. That Friday, ShelLIE gets a passport and GZ launches his begging website that weekend. He stops communicating with his attorneys who hold a press conference announcing their withdrawal. By that Monday, April 9th, he had only received $5,880.00 in donations. Not enough to flee the country.

          By April 11, 2012, no further donations had come through Paypal. GZ then starts calling Corey’s office and Sean Hannity. On April 12th, GZ drives back to Florida and visits with Jose Baez. From there, he drives into Jacksonville thinking he is going to meet with Corey but he is taken into custody and transported back to Sanford.

          Then the money begins rolling in.

          And that fool cannot see that it was his arrest that caused people to donate money to him for his legal defense and bond, rather than giving him money for his living expenses?

          Reply
      • groans says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:38 am

        Ugh. Now that we’ve written these comments, I fear we’ll soon be seeing a new Motion for Subpoena Duces Tecum for the Postal Service and for the State Department! Because we know the defense team spends its precious, insufficient time reading this blog (probably including all thousand entries on this page alone)! 🙄

        But I’ve started a COUNTDOWN. The defense now has only 39 DAYS until its final witness list (including experts) is due! So they really SHOULD be prioritizing big time now, and getting their six “critical” experts on board!

        Tick-tock, tick-tock…!
        39 days until witness list is due!

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 3:06 am

          @groans.

          Ugh. Now that we’ve written these comments, I fear we’ll soon be seeing a new Motion for Subpoena Duces Tecum for the Postal Service and for the State Department!

          LOL!! That would be under federal jurisdiction, which is probably why O’Mara wants the FBI to turn over information. However, that post office transaction is more than likely in ShelLIE’s case file with the FBI and not GZ’s.

          Behind closed doors, there is probably some talking and negotiating going on in ShelLIE’s case. She knows the what and why of that transaction.

          Reply
      • groans says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:50 am

        No worries, though. Surely John Kerry will make the subpoena a TOP PRIORITY at State. ❗

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:19 am

        Shellie lied during court sanctions for a murder case

        I believe it makes it aggravated

        and the evidence is really plain

        she would be better off just admitting she did it, and just do the 3 or so months and get let out

        Because if she presses it, she will get the max, which I think is 5 years but I do not know how they will look at it, considering it was during a murder case court sanction

        She was also telling lies about the defendant’s violent history

        Reply
      • PiranhaMom says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:21 am

        What is the cost of a year’s rental on the largest P.O. Box there?

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 7:54 am

        You guys are good. sleuths. PM is right though, could be a PO box payment, since the lovely couple were on the move. On the other hand, they didn’t seem to expect to hang around Sanford, did they?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 4:37 pm

          @Two sides

          PM is right though, could be a PO box payment, since the lovely couple were on the move. On the other hand, they didn’t seem to expect to hang around Sanford, did they?

          GZ and ShelLIE left the townhouse like bats out of hell in the wee morning of 2/27/12. Why wait until 4/6/12 to rent a PO Box when they were living on borrowed money? I am more inclined to go along with Dave that post office transaction was for a passport for ShelLIE. It was the same day that GZ apparently flew Osterman’s and was commuting in Maryland.

          Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:52 pm

        ok I just listened to that audio jail tape about 2 weeks ago (it’s I think the 1st one I have posted on my page) where him and shellie talk about the passport.
        what I remember, and i’ll go back and confirm, is that shellie had her own passport, and gz told her to hold on to hers – she makes a point that it’s HER passport, but she also makes it clear that she has his too.and he does tell her to hold on to them! she says his IS in a safety deposit box at a bank.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:30 pm

        My memory sucks and I hate scrolling through all the evidence again. You could be right about a new passport app for Shellie, although she and Fogen had been married five years. Why would he have a passport and not her? Of course that could happen. But his old one that he thought lost was due to expire in 2012, if I’m not mistaken, and I’m not sure when the newer one had been applied for (the one he ultimately mailed to OM) but I think it was applied for during their marriage.

        Surely the prosecution is on top of this issue.

        Reply
  55. annahkonda says:
    February 15, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    Yeah, lady, I am inclined to agree with you. There was something very sinister and evil going on at The Retreat. My gut never fools me.

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:22 pm

      I agree. I don’t know what though and while I am not given to conspiracy theories, there is something just not right that was going on there.

      Reply
  56. annahkonda says:
    February 15, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    Does any one know? Have Taaffe, Osterman and witness#6 lawyered up?

    Reply
  57. ladystclaire says:
    February 15, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    After looking at all of these great videos by LLMPAPA and reading the comments here and at other sites, Fogen should have been slapped with a murder one charge and the dp should definitely be on the table. this tub of lard does not deserve to live after what he did to this child. who ever was with him that night deserves the same fate as well and, by the looks of it, he definitely had some help that night.

    Whose door was he knocking on and why? there is no way that he should be found anything other than guilty as charged. he and his family are all dumb enough to believe that the common sense people in this country have figured out what transpired that night and, that this is not a self defense case at all. is’s shameful on their part that they have joined in the trashing of their son’s/brother’s victim and his family. their evil spawn caused all of this and, IMO they all owe this victim and his family an apology but, they will never do it because, they have no morals. Trayvon will have his justice either at the state level and if not there, at the federal level where he stands a chance of being put to death. I’ll take the federal level for a thousand Alex.

    Reply
  58. Bill Taylor says:
    February 15, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    outstanding work llmpapa,,,,,every time i hear that song though i cant get the picture of a gorilla playing the drums out of my mind.

    Reply
  59. annahkonda says:
    February 15, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    I truly believe that when Fogen goes down, he is taking someone with him. You know how misery loves company. I can hardly wait until the fat lady sings.

    Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm

      And I think we all know who that someone is. I’ll take Osterman for a thousand Alex and maybe Taaffe as well. BTW, I wouldn’t hesitate to also say that good ole boy Jon was in on this murder as well. the home invasions were just a cover for other illegal goings on that these people mentioned here, had going on in their very own neighborhood. what was in the boxes being mailed off by Fogen? I’m telling you guys, they were stealing from their neighbors and, selling the stolen goods in another state.

      Maybe Fogen’s sister or one of his thuggish friends from VA. was on the receiving end of those packages which he was mailing.

      Reply
    • Cercando Luce says:
      February 15, 2013 at 7:59 pm

      Sondra? Shellie?

      Reply
    • cielo62 says:
      February 17, 2013 at 8:11 pm

      annahkonda~ you mean Shellie? As long as she tells them the truth, I don’t care if she can’t carry a tune in a bucket! Let that fat lady sing!

      ________________________________

      Reply
  60. Trained Observer says:
    February 15, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    From the illustrations to the music to those priceless frames of Killer Fogen lying his ass off, you captured it, yet again, LLMPapa.

    Reply
    • Trained Observer says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:57 pm

      should have said fat and getting fatter ass 🙂 Have just sent link to assorted people captivated by this case and getting Justice for Trayvon.

      Reply
  61. Malisha says:
    February 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Wow! LLMPapa, you have a real talent for visualizing things and then revealing the necessary physical parameters that evidence them! Magnificent!

    Reply
  62. kllypyn says:
    February 15, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    He had him by his shirts

    Reply
  63. LLMPapa says:
    February 15, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Reply
    • jm says:
      February 15, 2013 at 2:58 pm

      Great video as always. I can only pray MOM and Zimmerman KKKlan have enjoyed them as much as I do.

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:34 pm

        Rumor has it that FogenPhoole is on his 12th computer. They usually don’t survive an “Anger Toss for Distance”

        Enjoying them we are…..FogenPhoole……ehhhh, not so much.

        Reply
      • pat deadder says:
        February 16, 2013 at 9:43 am

        Can’t the defense say it got on there when fogen turned him over.I will be so glad when this is over And he is convicted.Hope against hope the prosecution has a clear tape of the 911 calls.In this day and age surley experts are able to get fogen’s threats to Trayvon.If these are available would they have to be released to the public or the defense.

        Reply
      • Erica says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:05 pm

        Yeah Im thinking the defense will say it got there while he was straddling Trayvon but the sweatshirt/bullethole analysis is interesting. That Knox guy didn’t think to compare that. LLMPAPA would be a great investigator!

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:02 pm

      Get him, LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get George Zimmerman.

      Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:06 pm

      Guilty!

      Reply
    • You all have thoughtful comments says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:14 pm

      Outstanding, LLPapa!

      Reply
    • Nefertari05 says:
      February 15, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      I’ve seen many powerful videos supporting Justice for Trayvon, But, LLMPapa… this one is beyond words!

      Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      February 15, 2013 at 5:19 pm

      I was wondering about the undershirt at one point, and went looking. There is a narrow band of the hem of the undershirt exposed when Trayvon bends forward slightly to dig his hands into his pocket for change. You can see it in the view from behind in this video:

      It doesn’t interfere with your theory, because I think you’re saying George was tugging at the shirt when he fired the shot.

      I can’t see if the under-shirt was similarly exposed at the front, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t be.

      Trayvon would only have to move around a little and throw his arms up for that hoodie to hike up and expose even more of the under-shirt.

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm

        Or, maybe Trayvon did not move but was rolled over to end up face down, hands underneath.

        Reply
      • degraveegmailcom says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:51 pm

        Or maybe it fell from GZ face when he was on top or standing over
        Trayvon who would be on his back because this stain is on the front
        of the under-shirt and because blood cannot drip upwards.
        Even if he had (GZ) a bloody whatever shooting someone in the heart at close range is MURDER.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:32 pm

        Perhaps that is where Fogenhats grabbed the victim by the shirt

        Fogenhats was the only party “redhanded” with blood on his hands

        If there is a print on it, then it is likely Fogenhats’

        Reply
      • Erica says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:14 pm

        the stain was the SIZE of a thumbprint, not a thumbprint..it was probably the blood that was dripping from his mustache. we also have to remember the can of tea in his hoodie pocket. The defense could say the tea can weight made the shirt hang, thus pulling his shirt down.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:00 pm

        Looks to me like the undershirt is 1 1/2-2 inches longer than the hoodie all the way around.

        Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:00 pm

      this video destroys that “expert”

      there’s no way gravity can be explained away for all those forensic readings, especially the combination of the trajectory, the needing to line up the bullet holes to the wound by pulling the hoodie and undershirt down and to the left, and the pulling forward of the shirt away from the body for the contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt only, but intermediate range gunshot wound

      I noticed that most people who try to support Fogenhats with expert testimony never make any logical sense

      Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:30 pm

      I really really really hope these videos you make LLMPapa are seen by more than just us. I really hope someone is taking a very good look at them.

      Thank you so much. I swear, I love you!!

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:49 pm

      Yep. Fogen’s quite the handy guy, ain’t he?

      Reply
    • operacarla says:
      February 16, 2013 at 1:02 am

      Bravo LLMPapa!

      Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      February 16, 2013 at 6:13 am

      @Papa,

      Another terrfic video, LLM! Cannot yet tell if that single GZ blood/DNA is a falling drop, or a smear, but I believe it came from Zimmerman’s lip/under-the-nose area, that got smacked by the Kel-Tek seconds earlier.

      Either Zimmerman wiped his hand across his sticky nose/mouth, or the blood dripped – but it got on the waistband of the INNER sweatshirt when Zimmerman frisked Trayvon, hoping to find that Trayvon was armed.

      He was, at that instant, trying to put together his alibi for the shooting. So much easier to claim innocence if he could say Trayvon menaced him with a gun -so George had to “fast draw” to save his own life.

      In the NEN call GZ was already trying to con Sean, the 311 dispatcher,into thinking TM was armed (“He’s got his hand in his waistband.) It was on his mind.

      No luck for GZ on the front of Trayvon – but in that process the tell-tale blood evidence adhered to the fabric.

      Next Zimmerman flips Trayvon over, frisks Trayvon for a holster worn a la George on the backside – no gun there, either – then checks the back of the hoodie by running his hands over Trayvon’s back, checking to see if there’s an exit wound or if, as Zimmerman hopes, the shattered hollow-point bullet stayed inside of Trayvon’s heart instead of passing straight through into the earth under Trayvon’s back.

      It would have been tough to explain that, because a bullet that passed through TM’s body into the ground would prove GZ was mounted on the immobilized teen when he shot Trayvon.

      But his “luck” held and there was no exit wound or break in the fabric on the back of of the hoodie.

      These searching movements on Trayvon’s back were witnessed by Selma and roommate.

      Others have posited that Zimmerman was squeezing the remaining life out of Trayvon at that time, but I have not. There would be no doubt to Zimmerman that he had inflicted a mortal wound to the unarmed teen.

      As witnesses watched him rise from Trayvon’s body, they saw Zimmerman wander off, cluching his brow in the classic reaction of “Shit! What am I gonna do now???” then circle back to the body.

      He had found his solution.

      He would lie.

      Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:21 pm

        Others have posited that Zimmerman was squeezing the remaining life out of Trayvon at that time, but I have not. There would be no doubt to Zimmerman that he had inflicted a mortal wound to the unarmed teen.

        I think that’s what George was doing too. Trayvon was probably gasping for air, and possibly making reflexive movements as he died. If George wanted to make sure the boy wasn’t kept alive by medics, or didn’t manage to say anything to the cops who were seconds away, he would press Tray’s face into the ground to make him die quicker.

        It’s horrifying to think of…but hearing George say it was God’s will that Trayvon die, and that he wouldn’t “judge” it….shows us that he is depraved enough to press a dying child’s face into the ground.

        Reply
      • MelRoy says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm

        The first cop arrived on the scene very quickly, and Zimmerman could see the flashlight. Remember the 911 calls where the witness is saying she sees another man with a flashlight.

        Although frisking somebody you just shot in the heart is a bit weird. Surely if TM was armed and was the aggressor, he would have used his own weapon instead of – as GZ claims – fighting over GZ’s cc. I do think he was on top of him for a different reason, although he may not have been on top all the time. So why would he be on top when TM was vulnerable?

        Conquest. “Gotcha”. Then when Mary and Selma shouted “What are you doing?”, he realized somebody saw him and how it would look. (He made up the frisking story for cover).

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 18, 2013 at 4:22 am

          @MelRoy,

          GZ never said “I’m frisking him for possible weapons.”

          The motions he went through after the shot (and were observed) indicated a frisking motion front

          and rear waistband – holster areas. There was no gun or holster on TM. The motions included GZ moving his hands over Trayvon’s back. From all that, a number of us surmised he was frisking TM, hoping to find a weapon (he had no knowledge one way or the other if TM were armed) and I brought out the theory that the upper back outer-gament search would be to make certain the bullet didn’t pass on through, which would blow any argument against self-defense if Trayvon were shot dead-on, lying on the ground.

          The theory of the GZ DNA/blood evidence on the LOWER part of the INNER sweatshirt lends credence to the “frisk in the waistband for a gun” theory because GZ had wet blood at the time, and that spot is his.

          What GZ SAID, is his claim that he didn’t know if he killed TM, and that he spread TM’s arms out to prevent him from attacking him again!!!

          TM’s body was found face-down with his arms under him, which is consistent with GZ rolling the body over after shooting him and examining the front waistband first, then rolling, then checking out the back.

          The position Sanford PD found the body in does not match GZ’s statements about what he did with the arms. John W-6’s second interview describes Trayvon with one arm stretched out in front “like he was swimming” and sketched it out.

          We look to the prosecution for its presentation on this in court.

          Reply
    • Mary Davis says:
      February 16, 2013 at 3:59 pm

      @LLMPapa. I love all of your videos, but for some reason this one made me cry. I just can’t stop crying.

      Reply
    • vickie s. votaw says:
      February 16, 2013 at 5:44 pm

      My favorite of your videos, I hope he can’t get it out of his head. Fogen, that is!

      Reply
  64. colin black says:
    February 15, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    lurker says:

    February 15, 2013 at 10:32 am

    I believe that the Judge suggested that she wanted them all there in the first three days. I’ve never been on a jury, but is there perhaps some initial pre-screening that goes on (perhaps paper and pencil)? Sort of a cattle call approach to eliminate the first 200-300 or so?
    @
    Lurker
    Bingo they call 500 potential jurours some use voteing registars iirc Florida use D V L records ie drivers licances.
    Over first thre days they expect lose say a 3rd by attrition.
    Maybe 153 due to health issues or family berivemant or your a single care give for an elderly relitive or you know some one involve in the trial.
    Many jurors are nixed withind first few days.

    That leaves 354 or there abouts to voire dire an as much time as is deemed nessesery should be taken by both sides to oick an impartial jurours an alternates whom are every bit as important if not more so.
    They are the substitutes that can come off the bench an save the day.

    For foggen foghorn forgot for real where Id forrgotten I was supposed to go Target shopping
    An when target shooting at Trayvo type dudes you know assholes that always get away.
    Intersting choice of Trayvons anatomy to fixate on.
    Coon or Punk did you want to make him your punk or personal boy.

    You were afull quick to flipp himover an mount his backside /buttocks
    An feel him up /pat him down .
    Searching for a weapon or copping a feel of his only weapon that night.

    You of course had two
    Your shrimp dick between your legs
    An your phalic dick with the long muzzle you also kept in your pants.
    An unlike your real sex pistol .
    Your sudstitute dick didnt fire blanks.
    It fired live rounds that ended life
    U8nlike the blanks you fired from your cock that also fired non life.
    A Real sex pistol fire live ammo that shoots life into a womans uterus an frtilises an egg .
    An a human is born.

    You shot an a human was ended.
    Anyway a jury of 6 an possably 6 alternate an just to be extra safe an extra six alternates should be gathered.

    To sit in judjment of foggen 6 6 6 will suffice for me an also give this ? a heads up as to where he is destined to end up.

    Reply
  65. Malisha says:
    February 15, 2013 at 11:58 am

    I predict PTSD, see above for criteria O’Mara will list in his motion.

    (Hey paralegal in O’Mara’s firm: Tell your boss Malisha said, “NA NA NA NA NAAAAAA NAAAAAAA.”)

    Reply
  66. colin black says:
    February 15, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Xena

    Who wrote that off course the building cant accomodate 500 plus jurours.
    The voir dire process takes days weeks months even.
    Do they think half a thousand potential jourours are going to roll up same time same date on the orders of Judge Nelson.

    I esstimate they will bring in up to 20 25 per?
    Per however fast they can question them an get a yae or nae.
    Hope it takes longer an more care taken than picking the Pinnellis pinheads for trunkmoms fiasco of a F U to the court verdict.
    After all them delisious sweet trolleys with blackforrest gattue an neapolitan ice cream.
    J Perry kept mollycodling them with what ever crap they wanted.

    They took longer ordering coffees latees expressio ect an nibbles to take into the jury room to deliberate .
    The disscussion of the logistics of beverages an snack eqaulled the amount of time they spent in deliberations.

    Not supriseing realy when you decide theres no need to ask to veiw any evidence or reveiw any vt or anything to do with the evidence.
    Just took an intitial vote ten for not guilty on the serious murder ect.
    An two for guilty on all charges.
    Rest time took the ten brow beating the two to come on board.

    Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:32 am

      I believe that the Judge suggested that she wanted them all there in the first three days. I’ve never been on a jury, but is there perhaps some initial pre-screening that goes on (perhaps paper and pencil)? Sort of a cattle call approach to eliminate the first 200-300 or so?

      Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:51 am

        Yes.

        Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:21 am

        If the prospective jurors won’t all fit inside they can put the overflow outside on the lawn. It will be June.

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:55 pm

        In short…Yes. Usually videos on how the process works and questionnaires to filter the unwanted out.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:54 pm

        Usually, all jurors are requested to show up at the same time. I think the judge’s point was to spread the 500 over three days as the exception.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:12 pm

        The first thing the judge asks for are those who cannot serve, e.g. just spent a non-refundable fortune for European vacation, my hangnail will get infected if I serve, etc. 1/3 or more will be excused based on legitimate reasons having to do with their personal life. If enough are excused, all who are left will be told to come back day 4. Otherwise, two days might be used for the next step. Alternatively, after the personal excuses are taken care of, some other means of winnowing those left will be used. Maybe the questionnaire with a key question or two that will result in a “don’t come back” call.

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 2:06 pm

      @Colin Black. Chances are that the jurors will report at various hours and first complete a questionnaire. From that questionnaire, some will be released and other will go into the courtroom for voir dire. They are estimating a two week process to seat 6 jurors.

      Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:44 pm

        Agreed, and you can bit the Foganfools will try to taint the pool. In fact, some people who show up to mingle may not even have been called for service. Smart prospects will say nothing to anyone one way or another about the case. In fact, smart prospects will bring a book and say nothing, period.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 5:30 pm

          @Trained Observer

          Agreed, and you can bit the Foganfools will try to taint the pool.

          When O’Mara put in his motion for a continuance about taking time to go through internet blogs and such, he told Judge Nelson that the longer this case continues, the more potential there is for tainting the jury pool.

          From GZ’s selling of autographs, to Junior’s diatribes in the media, and blogs such as the treeslum, they are the reasons why the court will not grant continuances.

          Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:59 pm

        This will be a long, grueling trial and jurors will risk coming under alot of outside pressure and probably threats as well. Any prospective juror who doesn’t try to get out of serving should probably be eliminated!

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 15, 2013 at 7:25 pm

          @Dave

          Any prospective juror who doesn’t try to get out of serving should probably be eliminated!

          IMO, any prospective juror should have their phone tapped and their internet usage tracked.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 16, 2013 at 7:58 am

        I think the jurors, like witnesses, are protected from intimidation and any purposeful tainting is liable as an offense I believe

        Court rules are made so that what happened can be scrutinized to the actual truth of the matter in a fair and impartial view

        Being a juror requires a swear of oath to duty because the victim deserves a fair hearing on what happened because all we have heard is the defendant’s lies and his brother as well telling lies, with no defense at all for the victim

        In court, all of their lies will come under scrutiny otherwise, the defendant and his lying con man brother can not submit it as evidence at a trial

        Even through all the efforts of Junior

        It is going to be proven that only the defendant was redhanded

        The victim, the kid, had absolutely no foreign dna whatsoever on his hands, cuffs, sleeves while the defendant’s hands were bloody from the killing and attack of the victim and my guess is staging his own injuries as he is the only one that is red handed

        Even before technological advances in sciences and studies, the most basic is “being caught redhanded” as the defendant was caught red handed, blood all over his hands, and the kid did not have red hands, as he did nothing

        Simple math

        There’s not gonna be any experts going to risk prison to tell lies because they can not explain away the trajectory, and the forensics and ballistics of the gun shot, the screams, the witnesses, the chase

        Witness 6 will stick to his story because he knows that he can go to prison for perjury during a murder trial and the defense against that is to recant a statement or like he did, he pretended he did not know what he saw and heard, or there may be something more juicy like the defendant threatened him… the forensics prove he is a liar, unless he is honestly mistaken

        The kid deserves a trial and I believe the jurors will do right by the kid

        even though I would love to whoop Fogenhats’ ass, I only wish the truth to come out, and he gets punished in a humane way, which is prison, and some psychological help, because he has been abusing people since a child, there is something wrong with him

        Amitaba

        I also hope Junior sees the light too

        Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 16, 2013 at 12:13 pm

      Unlike years ago, where people had to be at a specific location to get a call, today people can be reached anywhere they happen to be. So, there’s no reason to mass clog a courtroom or waiting room with jurors. The clerk has software to help him manage the list. He’ll simply call down the list until he gets enough potential jurors to respond that they can make it in a specified period of time, then mark them off the list as they arrive.

      Say he calls 20 for 9am, at 9:30 am he’s halfway through them so he calls up the next 20 and keeps going until perhaps 3pm. So they never have more than 30 or 40 jurors on hand waiting. Each time one leaves they call up another to come in. Instead of having to call all 500 to come and wait around all day.

      Reply
  67. colin black says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:19 am

    aussie
    Your post above wasnt a rant but a sesible collection of facts.

    The United States consttution is set up as giveing what in other countrys like the U K we call countys.
    Or some countrys have distects regions ect.
    Ameria alone calls its countys districts STATES.
    Statehood is Nation hood an in essence America was set up as a confederation of Nations.
    An although the world today veiws it as one country.

    Americans thems selfs are sometimes fanatical about there statehood being soverign an different an blah blah blah.
    Thats not the way we do it in Texas or Indiana or where ever.
    Im amaed when you see cop car chases where all they fleeing vechicle has to do is drive across a state line an the case ends.

    Ive seen shows like C O P S where the LE have basicly told some drunk or misscreant to go across the brige to diffren state or county an a dont give a rats ass what you do over there .
    Not my duristriction.
    Say what?

    How the hell can you expect to plolice a country as vast an with the potential for violence the States has.
    With a multitude of police forces whom seem to be jobs worths an there motto should be Im alright jack screw you aas far as the colleges in neighbouring durastrictions is concerned.

    As Mr T would say Im not getting no damm plane. oops

    No wrong one

    As Mr T would say.
    I Pity the foools who thought up that system.

    Reply
    • aussie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:54 pm

      I had a friend in LA. Lived near a major intersection where he said it was fun to watch the aftermath of smashes…. city police, country sheriff and State trooper arguing and MEASURING where the wrecks were to work out who has jurisdiction. Bad luck if some of the wrecks had spun into the other’s territory.

      This system made great sense, Colin, back when small bands of people were opening up huge areas of land, maybe 1000 miles from the next group, the land not a country, not even a state, just land (for the taking from the natives). They had to elect one of themselves to be mayor and one to be sheriff, sure. and they made up the laws as they went along, none having had education in it (or maybe in anything).

      Maybe by the time it got closely populated enough, the glory and perks of these positions were too entrenched, nobody wanted to give them up. Maybe they just never noticed there might be a better way. Maybe they never noticed 18th, 19th, 20th century creep up and go past….

      Reply
  68. colin black says:
    February 15, 2013 at 8:01 am

    After Dorner was fired, he didn’t really have anything to lose at that point.

    @Dennis

    Yes he did he had his life to live an his name not to clear.
    As he stated in good concience he was the honest cop whom informed on a Female officer.
    Nicknamed chupacabra a legendry Mexican kind of Tasmanian whirlwind devil that attacks mersilessly.
    She was proud of her nickname bestowed on her as she always drew blood.

    She admitted her crime of kicking a cuffed restrained mentaly Ill man.
    The victim also confirmed alongside his Mother whom saw the bruises an bust lip.
    She kicked him in the head an body whilst restrained.
    He also had to put up with instituinalised raaceism something wich was rampant in the Greater London Police also.
    An constantly hear profanitys expounded towards all sorts of ethnicitys.
    Go along to get along shouldnt include watching a fellow officer commit a criminal assault an then say nada.
    You are makeing them complicit in a crime.

    He had excellent skill sets from the Millatary an a clean record.
    He had beeen fore warned not once but by sevral differnt people that L A P D was rotten to the core an not the place for him.

    He had everything to lose i m o an when he saw the corruption an as an intellegent man.
    Must have realised rocking the boat only had one outcome.
    Him going overboard with stus quo retained.

    So after his last call up to the Service he could have an should have resisned his badge at L A P D.
    Signed on for extended tours in Milatary.
    An perhaps explored ploce work via milatry angle m p
    Or as a civilian officer working with N C S I
    iF HE NEEDED ANY FURTHER COLLAGE DEGREE ECT AM SURE THEY WOULD HAVE BACKED HIM.

    Or upon compleation of his tours he could have applied to another L E Durastriction anywhere in the vast country of opertunity he lived in.

    With his background record traing am sure there would be lots of little countys fighting to retain his servises as a small town sherrif.
    Where his inate goodness an decency could have flourished.
    He had everything to live an go for.
    An yet like a latter day Don Quiotie chose to fight an charge giant unmovable windmills that were able to generate enough force to crush him an anyone in there way like an gnat.

    I feel sorry for the victims an sorry that an obvoiously ill mentaly imbalanced fellow human didnt get the support an help he so obviously needed….

    He a genuine American Hero fought for his country got short changed an shafted by his own department to cover up raceism an indemic violence wrongdoing.
    An yet a ero like foggen get all stops pulled out an L E concortioists by bending over backward to let him get a pat on the back

    An not even a slap on the wrist for shooting an unarmed child.
    Called it sods law to bad to sad but you werent to know where you.
    Oh by they way for future refrance make sure there wearing black sneakers an dark pants before you shoot as thats the bad guy genral attire…

    As they say only in Merica………….

    Reply
    • mountainmanpat says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:10 am

      “Only in Merica”? For you my friend

      Amerika……..Rammstein

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 15, 2013 at 1:56 pm

      Yup. Only in Merica.

      Reply
    • Dennis says:
      February 15, 2013 at 2:12 pm

      I feel horrible for the two innocent people who were shot by the corrupt LAPD that can’t even identify a vehicle that is how sad they are. That is the Fogen mentality…shoot first and ask questions later.

      Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:41 pm

        Sorry, Dennis, you have that wrong.

        Shoot first and make excuses later.

        Woman in Florida got 20 years for discharging a firearm, trying to scare off the abusive ex husband. These guys attack 2 women from behind, at least 40 bullets, and don’t even have to say sorry, never mind get charged or lose jobs or something.

        Reply
    • aussie says:
      February 15, 2013 at 3:37 pm

      YIKES I am in deep doggy dooo then, Colin. I own and wear nothing but black clothing, don’t ask me why, been this way for many years. I’d better not go visit Land of the Free.

      They said he made it up, because he didn’t report her right away. He spent 2 weeks wrestling with his conscience, can he stay, can he say, can he make a difference. Decided he can’t stay and look the other way.

      Not hard to find two low-wage fast-food employees to say they saw nothing. Of course they didn’t or they’re next. Maybe not even employees, were their employment records checked? who would they complain to, the same people making the threats? or has it got to where they don’t even have to make them anymore?

      Did you notice how they tried to make out he was weak and useless all the time he was there? at least 3 “sources” mentioned him crying about things. Oh his training wasn’t up to scratch anyway. Not one person came forward with anything good to say about him. Were they prevented? were they just afraid? were the media just not interested? Instant and complete demonisation. “Terrorist” even.. who tells a guy, just take your dog and walk away……

      Easy for me to be brave from the other end of the world, but I want to see physical evidence that he did any of the shootings. Unedited surveillance tapes, forensics done OUTSIDE of CA labs, bullets matched to guns, yes they CAN recover filed-off serial numbers off guns……..autopsy report also not done in CA labs…….

      And if someone does shoot himself, to avoid the pain of burning alive, that is still murder.

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:51 pm

        No argument from me. You’re absolutely right.

        from an affidavit intended to show sufficient probable cause for a criminal complaint and arrest warrant, filed 2/7/13, for Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution:

        His personal belongings including wallet and ids were found near the US/Mexico border at the San Ysidro Point of Entry.

        The same affidavit speaks of an associate of Dorner, J.Y., aiding him. J.Y.’s family has a residential property in Arrow Bear, near where Dorner’s truck was found burning. J.Y. was spotted in Costa Mesa CA.
        http://documents.latimes.com/us-marshal-dorner-may-have-fled-mexico/

        Chris Gettner’s testimony (was he kicked?)

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 12:55 pm

        I have a comment in moderation but don’t know why. No naughty words and only two links.

        Reply
      • vickie s. votaw says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:41 pm

        I agree too & it pisses me off!

        Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 15, 2013 at 8:04 pm

      @Colin, yep, I agree with everything.

      Reply
  69. Rachael says:
    February 15, 2013 at 6:43 am

    How this might work with the immunity trial.

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 15, 2013 at 7:32 am

      With so much opportunity, and already a full year will have passed when Omara took it on, yet they want to delay it

      Reply
      • elcymoo says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:18 am

        I can understand taking a year or so to prepare for trial if a defendant is charged with a killing he denies committing, but I don’t see where his defense team has made an honest effort to prepare so far. There’s only so much that can be ‘investigated’ after he’s admitted that he was the shooter.

        What really boggles my mind is the time it’s taken to hear Shellie’s perjury case, given the recorded phone calls and the video of what she said during that bond hearing.

        Reply
  70. Rachael says:
    February 15, 2013 at 6:39 am

    How this might work.

    Reply
  71. aussie says:
    February 15, 2013 at 6:37 am

    This look familiar to anyone?
    ?

    “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[1]”

    Nor be deprived of life………..without due process………….

    Charges were already filed against him.

    SearchingMind, are you saying there’s a kind of special SYG for cops only? if a deaf man reaches for a card that says he’s deaf, they can fear for their lives and shoot him? they have someone outnumbered about 300:1, THEY can fear for their lives? and he can’t? After they shot up 2 women in a totally different vehicle he’s to believe they’d let him walk out in one piece?

    If “self-defence” over-rides the 5th Amendment, why have courts at all? if the cops go in with enough guns, everyone will arm himself in his own self-defence (see 2nd Amendment) and the cops have the excuse to short-cut the whole “justice” system.

    The “Manifesto” contains too much dirt to have been written by someone else. But there were 2 people dead and it was a mystery for 2 days, then the Manifesto was found and the manhunt started. Where is the physical evidence? Interesting, why were they looking on Facebook instead of the condo surveillance tapes?

    I don’t believe he shot anyone until they started shooting at him, up on the mountain. Not on evidence presented so far.

    Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:54 am

      Good analysis, Aussie.

      When trying to apprehend a person who poses mortal danger to civilians/ the public, cops, paratroopers, soldiers, etc. are not allowed to retreat. They must Stand Their Ground until the suspect is arrested. That is the primary duty of The State: protection of the individual and the public at large. In the exercise of such and other duties, they may, if necessary, apply PROPORTIONATE force to protect themselves from serious injuries and/or death. This is all I am saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

      Viewed from another angle, The Theory of State’s Monopoly of Power, dictates that any State that cannot maintain law and order- and retreats when threatened by non-State actors within its own boundaries, is a failed State or is heading towards becoming a failed State. As such, agents of the State may only retreat from a confrontation in the interest of protecting either innocent lives or their own lives – but not the life of an armed suspect who has declared war on The State, Institutions of the State and/or private individuals.

      I have not opinion with regard to the Dorner-case because of lack of (enough) reliable info. Dorner may have been executed as some have suggested (and that would not only be unconstitutional but also a serious crime). The cops may also have exercised their right to self-defense and killed Dorner in the process (and that would make the killing constitutional and lawful). I do not know which alternative is the case in the Dorner-case.

      Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:31 am

        They may also have killed somebody other than Dorner. their record on suspect identification in this case has been less than stellar.

        Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 1:37 pm

        They could have just shot him. Tossing in “burner” after “burner” saying “burn the m-f” doesn’t sound like self-defence to me. And saying this on publicly monitored radios and THEN expecting everyone to believe they didn’t meant to set the fire?

        “Proportional force”??? outnumber someone 300:1 and the set him alight?

        The arrogance is astounding. And backed up by “see what happens if you go against us”.

        I wonder if they’ll review his case now, that was “not for him but to allay the concerns of the public”??

        The vehicle they thought might be his (and obviously wasn’t and had two small women in it) they pumped more than 40 bullets into, without warning, from the rear — self-defence? or attempted murder??? and all we get is “oh poor dears they’re so nervous” instead of COURT MARTIAL.

        What does The Theory of State’s Monopoly of Power say about them starting confrontations? How many handcuffed or running-away people have cops “defended themselves” against in the past year?

        The State indeed cannot maintain law and order, if it cannot control its enforcement agencies. Whether Dorner killed those people or not, this kind of action is exactly what is driving the 2nd Amendment so-called “gun nuts” into feeling the need to protect themselves FROM THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

        I wonder if California will find the cojones to have a proper open inquiry about this. Sadly, people would probably feel afraid to join any protest march demanding it.

        Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 17, 2013 at 7:25 pm

          aussie~ I’m not usually a conspiracy theorists, but…. MAN did the LAPD lay a huge egg on this one! Theories and backlash will last for years!

          ________________________________

          Reply
      • Dennis says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:16 pm

        @aussie

        I know exactly what you are saying. I saw the pictures of their truck that was covered in bullet holes. They put two bullets into a human being back and then just offer them a new truck. That is just beyond sick. Not only should the officers involved in that shooting be sued into the ground, but they should also be fired and never work in law enforcement ever again.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:19 pm

        As far as I know, the two women are still suing Torrance PD. Who would ever emotioinally get over being attacked that way?

        Reply
  72. Dennis says:
    February 15, 2013 at 5:47 am

    This case seems just like the Jodi Arias trial. In that trial, the disgusting defense team is demonizing the victim when it is completely obvious that monster murdered the victim in cold blood.

    Reply
    • Dennis says:
      February 15, 2013 at 5:50 am

      Does any logical person on this planet believe that stabbing a naked person in the shower multiple times, cutting their throat, and shooting them multiple times is self-defense? If Jodi Arias is acquitted, the jury will have set the record for stupidity.

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 7:36 am

        You’d be surprised

        but it has rare occurrences

        Reply
      • jm says:
        February 15, 2013 at 8:44 am

        I don’t get how it can be self-defense simply because she voluntarily drove so far to get to the victim and she was armed and ready to kill. The Jodi Arias case sickens me in so many ways in that she is playing a victim while it is clear to me she was a willing participant in kinky sex. The part that really gets me is her insinuation that the person she murdered was a pedophile with no evidence to back that up other than her “word.” I cannot wait to see the cross on her because the prosecutor seems to be seething to get at her lies. She is a compulsive and stupid liar just like GZ.

        Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:16 pm

          jm~ So Jodi Arias claims her victim was a pedophile while Casey Anthony accused her own dad with sexual abuse? See a trend? Yes. See any evidence? NO! Just another red herring that the defense hopes will work for them.

          Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 15, 2013 at 1:47 pm

        I for one don’t. if I didn’t know it was a real trial as a result of a real crime I’d say it was based off a movie script.

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm

      @Dennis

      This case seems just like the Jodi Arias trial. In that trial, the disgusting defense team is demonizing the victim when it is completely obvious that monster murdered the victim in cold blood.

      The more Jodi testifies about their sexual relationship, the more she confirms that she was Travis’ booty call who became jealous and killed him.

      Reply
      • Tee says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:54 am

        @ Xena, I could not believe the things that she was saying, even if some were true the thing she did to that man came out of rage and hate no one deserves to die like that. i didn’t believe a word she said. I was reading some of the post of people supporting her it was the same as Those awful people that support Fogen. All I read was hate, hate for a man they didnt know, hate or a man that was so brutally murdered. I ask myself, how coud they support a person who could carry out such an awful crime.

        Reply
  73. aussie says:
    February 15, 2013 at 1:21 am

    Frederick

    can you tell me something, please?

    Is there a constitutional right to a trial? for everybody?

    This week a man accused of some killings, with no evidence released, was murdered in full view of the nation on national TV…. and some people are cheering. Did he have a right to a trial? Do the people who killed him have a right to one?

    If the suspicions the accusations were based on turn out to be no more accurate than GZ’s suspicions of Trayvon, will anyone ever be charged with this death?

    How is it decided which death results in charges and which not?

    Do they have to in any way PRODUCE any evidence they had to say this man was involved in the original deaths?

    What I’m getting at is, once someone is dead, does anyone have to PROVE they had good reason for pursuing him? because on that would depend whether his ensuing actions were attacks or standing his ground.

    Was GZ just trying to cash in on a culture that says any shoot by a cop is a good shoot?

    Do you guys living in the US feel SAFE?????? because I fear for you all from 12,000 miles away.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Reply
    • bettykath says:
      February 15, 2013 at 2:51 am

      aussie, I agree with you. According to one report I read, close to 200 cop cars were at the scene when it was determined that there was a person in the cabin (by robot) and that they would burn the m-f down. They wanted to be sure the fire was hot enough and would burn long enough so that it didn’t matter whether the floor was wood or concrete. Sadly, I don’t expect anyone to be charged with a crime, not for killing whoever was in the cabin nor the newspaper woman. It is assumed that the man they killed is the one who killed police officers and the daughter and fiance of an LAPD cop so the investigations there are over but for the paperwork. Even when cops are charged, they tend to walk.

      The police here are being militarized to an alarming degree. One of the Koch’s, a billionaire who’s trying to buy the government, has a tank! I kid you not. It was in a parade in Colorado. One man objected to it and stood in its way until he was removed, probably arrested for disorderly conduct.

      No, I don’t feel safe but I object to my rights being taken away in some false sense that this will make me safer. In fact, it is the erosion of our constitutional rights that make feel unsafe.

      Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 15, 2013 at 4:14 am

        The latest news is they identified him by DENTAL RECORDS. Yet there was a claim a wallet with his licence was found in the burnt-out ruins. (Selective fire). Though one such had already been found a few days earlier in a skip.

        The first killings, of the couple, were being reported as a mystery even when the manhunt had started; apparently the main link to Chris Dorner was that a day or two after that shooting, they found his Facebook “manifesto”. No physical evidence at all. The two cops shot at the lights? could have been anybody, LAPD don’t appear to be too popular. Strange 8 bullets and one didn’t die, for a marksman.

        The cops having more and more weapons, and stronger ones, sort of makes sense, considering the populace at large is allowed them, therefore there’s a big pool of them available for criminal gangs. But I’d not call them “militarised” — the military have training and discipline and strict rules of engagement and COURT MARTIAL for those who break them.

        There are always a few dirty cops everywhere. Always a few little embarrassments to cover up. That is kinda normal, sadly.

        But to do this on national TV, live, with half the internet listening in on scanners, and expect to COVER IT UP……… and to expect everyone to BELIEVE IT………..

        It cost him his life, but they proved precisely what he was saying about them.

        Sadly the mindless haters are out in force calling him a murderer who deserved what he got. No evidence. No constitutional rights. Anyone decrying the cabin fire denigrated. Only the Second Amendment seems to be still in force, in some minds.

        Here in Australia something like this would lead to a Royal Commission, a special open inquiry with powers to compel any evidence it wants to hear. For you guys it seems to be a local issue, maybe not even as high as State level. I wonder if there will be any inquiry?

        And that is part of the problem. City and county police are too local, too involved, yet too few in each place to be properly trained. Anything goes wrong in a small place, it doesn’t affect anywhere else, as it’s “not our cops”. Small-town corruption or killings don’t even make the next town’s news.

        If the police were State wide, centrally trained by experts, and then allocated to places other than their home towns, they’d have less chance to favour people they know, more chance their stepping out of line would interest other people. and they can be rotated around so “gangs” can’t develop. For populous States maybe they could have 3 or 4 administrative divisions, better still as some competition between them for good public perception.

        How can a 10-man sheriff’s department investigate itself? would the complainant even survive having an “accident”? Here in Sydney, in the famous night entertainment area King’s Cross, over-run with drugs, in the 1990’s the only successful drug raid in years was when Internal Affairs raided the local police station. A lot of heads rolled. (I walked in there once, you could cut the weed smoke with a knife).

        I fear for you guys. I really do. How can you be a nation and still run your lives like a collection of 30 million separate small towns? where the other side of the street has different laws and different cops and different school system?

        Democracy is everyone having a vote and being allowed to use it. It’s not every 20 people doing everything their own way like 300 years ago when 20 people was all there was in one spot.

        /end rant/

        Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 17, 2013 at 4:59 pm

          aussie~ Your rant is one I’ve voiced many times. The US is a large country, as in land mass. BUT it’s a small city in terms of THINKING. I hated GW Bush with a PASSION, but his No Child Left Behind had a kernal of a good idea in it. Our country, NATIONWIDE deserves the best education we can give the next generation. And yet localities fight tooth and nail to avoid it. I pity every kid educated in Louisiana. They rank 50th out of 50 for SAT scores and other academic markers. But no worries! SOON Texas will rank at the bottom! Perry and his buddies could not care less about a quality education here, hence slashing the education budget year after year IN SPITE OF population growth!   The small town thinking is equally to blame for the downfall of America. The Great Generation thought of the US as just that “US, in it TOGETHER.” Nowadays, it’s all for ME, ME, ME in my little corner of America. Ignorance and violence; a dangerous combination. (end of my rant)

          Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:19 am

        Sheriff Arpaio down in Arizona apparently also go ahold of a tank from somewhere. He employed it (God knows why) in a raid on a suburban house. The claim was that they were going after a cache of guns. Fortunately the occupants were not at home–although a dog died after being driven BACK INTO the house once it was ablaze (story was that the Sheriff’s boys shot in tear gas that was ignited by a candle or burning incense inside). Only weapons ever found there was a registered handgun and some antique collectible (cover story–the guy must have been tipped off and moved his stuff).

        The tank, btw also did some damage by way of rolling over a neighbor’s car.

        These are the folks now armed and sitting outside schools in Maricopa County.

        Think we should feel safe?

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 15, 2013 at 1:49 pm

        But Dorner’s wallet was supposedly found discard a few days before, I believe the day he tried to hijack a boat. Did they really identify him from dental records, because it sure sounds like they really can’t and they’re using the excuse of finding ID to cover their asses. What kinda ID survives that kinda fire? And why would it be reported that his ID was found earlier in the week?

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm

        bettykath~ I don’t trust cops, and never have. It’s not so much the stories of the bad ones that influence me, but the FACT that these bad cops NEVER are held accountable for their crimes! Yes, I always agree that there are bad teachers and pedophiles and thieves in the teaching ranks BUT they get taken down very hard when they get caught. NOT SO with cops! I love my students, so I don’t bullshit them with lies to “trust cops.” I tell them just do what they tell you to do. Call a lawyer and family right away. But until then, just do what you are told. WE, the common citizens, are the new runaway slaves.

        Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 15, 2013 at 4:27 am

      Aussie, Betty, Professor is taking a little nap, so let me sneak in quite a bit because I like the question.

      The answer is IMO: No. And, partially yes.

      No, because there is no fundamental interest of the individual to be protect by such a right (i.e. “right to trial”). The individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Anyone thus innocent (be it “presumed”) has no interest in having a trial because his innocence is intact and going to trial will put that innocence in jeopardy. His goal is to forever remain innocent. .

      The only one who has the ‘right to trial’ (i.e. prosecute) is the State because that’s the only process through which it can break through the wall of innocence of an individual and prove his/her guilt. Any individual caught up in that process has a ‘right’ to ‘FAIR trial’ (as opposed to ‘right to trial’).

      From the perspective/dimension of the Constitution (and Theory of The State, if you will), the State is obliged to capture and put to trial any individual/fugitive who in all reasonability may have committed serious crime(s). In trying to fulfill that obligation agents acting on behalf of the State may respond with proportionate force to protect their lives and the (re)public. In such a scenario, you basically have two fundamental rights at loggerheads with each other: ‘due process, etc. for the suspect’ and ‘self-defense’ for State paratroopers/agents. The right to ‘Self-defense’ is superior to all other rights.

      This is as far as I will dare go and will not be commenting on the Dorner-case specifically because of lack of details and accurate information on what happened.

      Reply
      • Dennis says:
        February 15, 2013 at 5:25 am

        The government or police are not allowed to execute people and play judge, jury, and executioner. This is the reason why we have a Constitution. Everybody, no matter how much of a piece of crap they are, deserve and should receive a fair trial and be judged by a jury of their peers, or a judge if they opt for a bench trial. In the newest couple NDAAs passed by Obama, assassination is now authorized against anybody who is a threat to the government….i mean national security.

        I’m not going to defend Dorner’s actions, but there is sufficient evidence that the LAPD caused the whole fiasco. The other day LAPD shoots at and almost kills two people…they offer to buy them a new truck. That department is beyond corrupt and those actions prove it. If you snitch on a corrupt cop for beating a suspect, you get fired or have a convenient accident…and you lose your pension. After Dorner was fired, he didn’t really have anything to lose at that point.

        Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:04 am

        We are essentially saying the same thing, Dennis. But right now, we do not have enough to conclude either that (a) Dorner was executed by the cops because he was unarmed- or was armed but did not fire at the cops who were trying to apprehend him; did not kill any of the cops during that attempt to apprehend him; offered to give up and be arrested; the cops could have captured him without risking certain death, etc. OR (b) the cops killed Dorner while defending themselves because Dorner was armed; fired at the cops who were trying to apprehend him; in fact succeeded in killing one of those cops trying to apprehend him; capturing him alive would entail certain death to one or more cops; all other means to apprehend Dorner without loss of lives has been exhausted, etc. We just do not know enough to make sound judgments at this point. That’s where we disagree. I do not believe that we have the “sufficient evidence” you talk about.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 4:09 pm

        So without a prosecution, Dorner is innocent. Just burned.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 16, 2013 at 4:11 pm

        Just like Ken Lay (is that his name), the Enron guy. He died before the verdict so he was innocent and his family got to keep his millions.

        Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 15, 2013 at 1:52 pm

      No, I for one, definitely do not feel safe. I don’t feel safe from gun-toting citizens and and I don’t feel safe from the cops. But I’m not into a kneejerk response. I’m not going to run out and buy weapons.

      I think the right to be safe and protected from other citizens and law enforcement trumps the right to bear arms.

      Reply
    • vickie s. votaw says:
      February 16, 2013 at 5:28 pm

      Aussie, if minimum wage is so high, how much is a Big Mac?i need an answer to a right to worker. Thank you

      Reply
  74. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    Correction, August 2011, no day date given for the photo. (ghosts must be playing on the keyboard tonight, sorry)

    Reply
  75. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    LLMPapa did a video of image manipulation, using the elongated and distorted image that WESH now sports on it’s Trayvon Martin header.

    Other images were said to be 12 or 14 years old, so I thought the red Hollister shirt photo, with a normal shaped head,was one of those photos of a much younger Trayvon.

    Truth is, according to the date that photo was taken, that Trayvon was 16 years old when the photo was taken on August 11th, 2011. That is 6 months younger than when he was gunnded down in cold blood.

    But Fox and WESH have clearly not asked their photographers if this new Omara handout, even appears normal. And still they use it.

    Source for this info, is Jonathan Capehart who got the photo date from Trayvon’s own lawyer.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/02/06/playing-games-with-trayvon-martins-image/

    Reply
  76. Trained Observer says:
    February 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Or work to expose Fogen’s dirty laundry !

    Reply
  77. Trained Observer says:
    February 14, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    “Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda and O’Mara agreed to work together on a juror questionnaire. O’Mara predicted jury selection would last one to two weeks. They’ll need a panel of six plus alternates.” — Orlando Sentinel

    Definitely, I was wrong earlier on number of jurors.

    A smaller jury pleases me, though. More opportunity for a smaller panel to bond and do what’s right.

    Reply
  78. LLMPapa says:
    February 14, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    Grab a cup of coffee, this is a long one.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:36 pm

      There’s a fine example of undermining a hypothesis of a self-proclaimed, book selling expert.!

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:42 pm

        The expert might go back and re-work his start point from ‘he’s here now, just staring at me’ and start his clock from there, but still, even if we accept that the killer was parked at the clubhouse at that, but he should be certain of that assumption as well.

        But now that his book is written in stone, so to speak, he can’t change his position, especially with the news videos out there.

        One more assumption that hasn’t shown up as documented fact, is precisely where the shooter got out of his car and where he car was found after the shooting (nevermind who took control of the vehicle and when).

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:51 pm

        Oh, that’s gonna leave a mark…….not to mention jaws left agape.

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:40 pm

        I might be cynical BUT I do believe that Knox is just angling to get an “expert” gig on this case. After all, win or lose, HE GETS PAID. So why would he care if GZ is a total liar? He still gets paid!

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:36 pm

      Good cup of coffee.

      Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:37 pm

      @LLMPapa. It’s most worthy of the time. Mr. Expert has apparently watched your, Trent’s and Dave’s videos. What he hasn’t done, evidently, is read material that suggests that GZ cut Trayvon off where he could not reach Green’s townhome. Mr. Expert also omitted all reference to where Trayvon’s body was found — about 40 ft. south of where GZ said the altercation took place.

      Thanks, LLMPapa.

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:50 pm

      The reason that guy is not an expert is…

      He says that Fogenhats is not credible

      than later takes his word of him just walking across the T

      and then adds some fantasy mystery of what the victim Trayvon was doing and could have made it home

      without even taking into account that he earlier stated that Fogenhats is not credible, and could have made it back to his truck, and question what the hell Fogenhats was doing himself

      The only believable statement this “expert” made is that Fogenhats should have made and could have made it back to his truck, if that was Fogenhats’ intent

      I do not know how this idiot can claim to be an expert and he does not look at all the details

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:33 pm

        Sometimes “Economy of words” or “less is more” works best. Let me give this a try.

        My version of a book written about this using facts alone.

        Chapter 1) FogenPhoole profiles victim
        Chapter 2) FogenPhoole follows victim
        Chapter 3) FogenPhoole detains victim
        Chapter 4) FogenPhoole shoots victim for no reason
        Chapter 5) FogenPhoole admits to shooting victim
        Chapter 6) It is proven Victim was simply walking home
        Chapter 7) FogenPhoole is charged with 2nd Degree Murder
        Chapter 8) FogenPhoole tells preposterous story and lies
        Chapter 9) FogenPhoole is not credible

        The End

        Reply
    • Nefertari05 says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:53 pm

      Wow! “CLEARLY, Mr. Expert”, Indeed!

      Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:17 pm

      ooh ooh I love it when you make the long ones
      *gotta go make popcorn*
      woo hooo

      Reply
    • jm says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:24 pm

      Bravo! Do you think Mr. Expert will get to see your video?

      Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:53 pm

        Hope so………

        ***Great video LLMPapa. Thank you so much for your HUGE contributions to the cause of justice for Trayvon!

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 8:04 pm

        Jm- why not? He’s stolen lots of other good stuff from this blog. EXCEPT for the fact that here we use ALL of the evidence!

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
    • aussie says:
      February 14, 2013 at 10:48 pm

      YAY…. BEAUTIFUL.

      We ourselves have totally discredited the Taaffe-Clubhouse section as pure fabrication.

      But if the expert is relying on GZ’s timelines, then it is only fair for him to stick to them consistently.

      In my personal opinion, the closest Trayvon ever got to the T was around the little tree that wounded GZ and where the key/flashlight combo was found, and even that by approaching from the south being chased. I don’t believe he was ever north of that point at any stage.

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:27 pm

        The guy is just a snake oil salesman trying to capitalize on the numbnuts and a dead kid

        He discredits himself by saying

        “the defendant’s timeline is not credible”

        then after saying that, he just takes the defendant’s word on what he says happened at the T

        If the story went as Fogenhats told it, then yes, Trayvon would have made it home and could have made it home

        He fails to take into account what Fogenhats was doing in his 2 minutes of missing time

        Reply
    • bettykath says:
      February 15, 2013 at 2:34 am

      In the walk-thru, the defendant claims that Trayvon circled his car on Twin Trees but in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house! Poor fogen. He didn’t know where he was.

      Reply
      • LLMPapa says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:04 am

        I’m not sure what you mean by this:

        in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house!

        From his 2/26 interview with Detective Doris Singleton:

        DS: Is he walking completely around the car?

        GZ: Yes, ma’am.

        DS: Okay.

        GZ: Um, and dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on. I…

        DS: So you’d come off your street and gotten onto another street?

        GZ: Yes ma’am.

        DS: At some point.

        GZ: Yes ma’am. It goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood. I didn’t know the names of the street. Um, or where he went, so I got out of my car to look for the street sign and to see if I could see where he cut through so I could tell the police.

        DS: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?

        GZ: Yes, ma’am.

        Sounds like he told her the circling happened after he’d come off HIS street (RVC) and gotten onto ANOTHER street (TTL)

        Personally? I don’t think there was ever a moment when Mr Zimmerman didn’t know EXACTLY where he was.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 1:37 pm

          I’d say that since FogenPhoole is so detail oriented on his NEN call “….he’s got a button on his shirt…” “…he’s up to no good…” etc. and there is no mention of a vehicle circling in real time, there was no such circling. He decided to make Black Dynamite Slim far more menacing.

          Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:12 am

        It seems as though the “now he’s looking at me” and the bit about “he has his hand in his pants, he’s a black male” in the NEN call tape matched up with the time that Z. claimed to still be parked in front of the club house. And that is the only reference in the call that might conceivably match with a story of circling the truck.

        One suspicion I have had from the beginning is that Z. completely invented the part about parking in order to make the call because he was afraid of being accused of unsafe driving while on the phone. It’s pretty hard to imagine any exact locations of anything–except that whatever Z. says has no basis in fact.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 16, 2013 at 12:32 pm

          Make of it what you will but the NeN call starts at 7:09 which is nearly 45 minutes after Trayvon left 711 on a 16 minute walk home. Shave about 3 minutes off of that, because the NeN call begins at the Mail Shed which is about 3 minutes from Brandy Green’s house. So, with 45 minutes on a 13 minute walk, just how likely is it that GZ is anywhere near RVC when Trayvon comes by the area? GZ certainly didn’t spend 32 minutes patrolling around the area without getting any of his light events picked up by the cctv’s.

          Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:55 am

        I shouldn’t have done this at 3 am The interview I’m talking about is the one Singleton and Serino did with him reviewing the NEN call on 2/29. The defendant said that Trayvon approached his car and had his hand in his waistband while he was at the clubhouse. Singleton pressed him for when he moved from the clubhouse to TTL. In this interview, there is no car walk-around at all, just an approach at the club house.

        I guess what confused me is if the walk-around happened, it would have been, time-wise, where he’s talking about Trayvon approaching the car.

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:40 am

        3 Streets, can’t remember 1, confused on where any alleged vehicle circling took place, never mentions it in real time something like “…..now he’s circling my schruck…….what is his deal, get that officer here now”

        There was no vehicle circling……….anywhere.

        Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 15, 2013 at 5:05 pm

        Poor Fogen didn’t know where he was is a crock of shit on his part. this POS is a born liar and, he wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped him in his FAT FACE. he is such a poor excuse for a human being. Fogen follows this kid in his car and then on foot and, when he catches up to him he is the one who started the confrontation by trying to detain Trayvon. there is a witness to this very aspect of the confrontation which Fogen started.

        As I have said before I’m saying it again. I believe there is someone who saw this go down in it’s entirety but, we just don’t know who this person is just yet. there is a lot of stuff that the state has, that hasn’t been made public yet and, the person who saw it all is in with the unknown evidence. the night has a thousand eyes and I believe it. 35-life for LARD ASS!

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:44 pm

        You can tell he’s lying by the contradictions

        On the phone call, he says they are at the clubhouse, then Trayvon is walking, looking at houses, then he notices him and runs… which turns out to start from around the clubhouse

        It sounds to me, Fogenhats was tailing Trayvon in his car, creeping behind him, stalking him, and then Trayvon got scared and tried to run for it, as he sensed danger, and he was correct in his assertion

        Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:35 am

      Damn! Nailed it again! Nails Nails Nails Nails (where IS THAT COFFIN?) ❗ ❗ ❗

      Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 15, 2013 at 4:03 pm

      Not to mention that his shots are taken standing up, when the shooter himself claims he was on the bottom shooting up with his elbow fast to the ground.

      Oh right, no peer review, eh? I wonder why? LOL!

      Reply
  79. Rachael says:
    February 14, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    Happy Valentines Day!!!!

    Reply
  80. Xena says:
    February 14, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    Images: Many looks of George Zimmerman
    http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/-/14266478/17081472/-/5qhosnz/-/index.html

    GZ’s facial expressions speaks volumes about his anger issues.

    Reply
  81. Nefertari05 says:
    February 14, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Regarding the “roll in” . Could O’Mara be setting the stage for a “directed verdict”? Per wiki: “In a criminal case in the United States, once the prosecution has closed its case, the defendant may move for a directed verdict. If granted, the verdict will be “not guilty”. ”

    Can he be attemtpting to force the prosecution to enter the statements, during the case-in chief, to present their strongest case, by warning them (implicitly) that they may not be able to use them in a cross examination or rebuttal of the defense’s case – since the defense may not have to present a case?

    Are they trying to force the prosecution to put fogen’s self-defense claim, before the jury, so fogen doesn’t have to testify? Is this question of a “roll in” a manipulative tactic, by the defense?

    I don’t think the judge would grant a directed verdict, but if I understand it correctly, it would depend on the stregnth of their case-in-chief, which is significantly stronger WITH the statements. Hmmmm? More questions…..

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 14, 2013 at 5:48 pm

      I dont believe so. They can present him as the killer, the guy that did it, with none of the statements by the defendant. They will use the NEN call, and that is about all they need.

      IMO, the state has to prove murder. If it is proven murder, it is obviously not self defense. From what Freddy stated, there is no self defense instruction if there is no evidence of self defense at all, which in fact, there is none.

      Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:25 pm

        Thanks Jun –
        Since there’s no doubt fogen pulled the trigger, guess requesting a directed verdict doesn’t help the defense. Right, to claim self-defense the defense must present the claim to the jury. I lost that point for a moment in marinating on the ramifications and WHY O’Mara would seriously propose such a thing. Maybe the professor will address it, when he gets a minute.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:31 pm

        Whether or not Fogenhats testifies, he is still the proven murderer, the guy that did it

        Omara can claim it was self defense

        but if it is shown that it was a cold blooded murder, it is obviously not self defense

        People are gonna see that the defendant should have just had self control and not be a big fat fucking liar, and just left the kid alone, because he did not do anything at all, and he did not even attack the defendant, at all, even in self defense

        In fact, Omara cant even submit any of Fogenhats’ claims, without him taking the stand under cross and oath

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm

          Hey FogenPhoole….I really hope you read what Jun said here…..
          because it’s all true and it must really suck to be you !! Just sayin’

          Reply
    • MelRoy says:
      February 17, 2013 at 4:33 pm

      It can happen if the state does not present sufficient evidence for the trial to go to jury.

      Reply
  82. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    Xena– apologies for phonetic typing of your name!!

    Reply
  83. Xena says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    ANNOUNCEMENT
    Circuit Judge Debra Nelson today rejected George Zimmerman’s request to delay the start of his “stand your ground” hearing, saying that it will start April 22.

    She also ordered 500 potential jurors, more than the Seminole County Courthouse can hold, for Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.

    There’s no report yet on the Motion to depose Attorney Crump.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-scheduling-conference-20130214,0,3996028.story

    Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:47 pm

      Great news

      Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm

      It would appear as though there will be a hearing starting on Ap 22. As I think this through, if the self defense issue is essentially taken off the table before the trial–as it certainly will be–is this a case of it will be all over but the shouting?

      I mean, there has never been any doubt at all that Zimmerman shot Travyon and this was the cause of his death–and he has said as much many times over. Would the trial then consist mostly of wrangling over a jury determination of second degree vs manslaught?

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:08 pm

        @lurker. I’m not sure how it works to roll-in an immunity hearing with the trial. For one, an immunity hearing is decided by the judge and not the jury.

        I have seen cases where after the State puts on its case in chief, the defense will motion for dismissal due to lack of evidence. The jury is then removed from the courtroom while the judge hears the defense argue against the charges based on prior case decisions. Then the State presents its argument based on those case decisions. In those cases that I know about where this happened, none of them were dismissed. Several had more than one charge, and the judge dismissed maybe a charge, but not the entire case.

        If per chance this is what O’Mara is thinking or hoping will happen, he is, IMO, throwing GZ under the bus because of Florida self-defense case decisions that are not to GZ’s benefit, with the Dooley case being a most recent one.

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:24 pm

        Zena, in today’s jury instructions, the judge in the Davis trial mentioned ‘Stand Your Ground’ as part of the instructions. Sounded like this jury could consider an SYG as part of the self defense evidence.

        The defense saying it wants the jury to decide everything rather than a separate self-defense and/or syg hearing?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 14, 2013 at 5:37 pm

          @ay2z. I have to get familiar with the Davis case. The Arias case has had my attention now for several weeks. Do you know whether Davis was denied immunity?

          Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:28 pm

        Xena–It sounded like the outcome of today’s hearing was that there would be a separate SYG event beginning in April. And then preparations going forward for the jury trial in June.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:01 pm

        If you fail at a SYG hearing you can present your self-defense claim to the jury in due course.

        I predict a motion to postpone because of Fogen’s mental health — after maybe a week or two. A couple of psychiatrists will testify about how stressy it is to be hated and called a racist when all you wanted to do was implement God’s plan. Yeah, bring’em on.

        Reply
      • Tzar says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:16 pm

        wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.

        Reply
      • roderick2012 says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:49 am

        Tzar says: wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.

        I don’t understand that BS either. Why is Judge Nelson allowing O’Mara to drive this train.

        Why is she allowing only two weeks for the immunity hearing because hearing from O’Mara he will need more than a week to present the defense’s case so whatever the balance is the prosecution will have to squeeze in whatever testimony they can using the balance.

        And why are they allowing for 500 potential jurors? Because all O’Mara needs is one devout George supporter to get a hung jury.

        That’s a ridiculous number and it will take weeks and weeks before a jury is seated and that’s exactly what O’Mara wants.

        I can imagine O’Mara and West will be filing motions until the beginning of the jury trial.

        Reply
  84. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Davis taped confession being played for the jury, so that trial and other news may take priority

    Reply
  85. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    sounds like there is video, just not broadcasting live and will be available later online

    “We post all of our videos online and will post it here when we have it.
    by Kevin Clay/WESH.com Staff 1:07 PM”

    Reply
  86. Chocolate Diva says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Have any of y’all seen the video MANYBUDDIES post on Youtube. About the Jacksonville expert saying GZ timeline is off but its evidence that TM was standing over GZ when he was shot.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:26 pm

      been discussed here, concensus is that this expert does not consider complete evidence, there’s another explanation for the two bullet hole in clothing observations and it’s NOT Trayvon on top for other reasons.

      Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:42 pm

        His experiment loses credibility because his shooter is firing the gun while standing, and into two garments hanging one in front of the other. While the real experiment calls for the shooter to be on his back on the ground, with his elbow fast to the ground.

        For his gravity fall on the shirts, the bullet holes will have to line up, when the shirts are put on a mannequin of appropriate dimensions and positioned leaning forward, over a shooter laying flat on his back. If the holes do not line up, or if a straight in shot can’t be obtained in this position, GZ is toast!

        Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:28 pm

      search back and also check the recent articles for more

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:45 pm

      I would not call the person an expert because

      a) He fails to take note of the ballistics and forensics of the gunshot

      b) He fails to take note of witnesses

      Him saying his timeline is off, really does not take an expert to tell he is lying

      Omara is not gonna be able to reasonably and truthfully match the forensics and ballistics and witnesses to his client’s story or stories

      a) The gunshot muzzle made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. If the hoodie or undershirt was not held in place, the shirt would have expelled into the body from momentum, and then the shoot and hot burning would have added more gunshot debris to other parts of the body, from the shirt going back into the chest area.

      b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away.

      For the above two readings, the shirt had to have been held firmly in front of the victim, at about a foot away from the victim’s body. The gunshot muzzle only made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. That way it is a contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt, but is a intermediate range gunshot away from the chest for the wound. They likely did science tests to prove this.

      c) The bulletholes in the hoodie and undershirt do not line up with the gunshot wound. The trajectory is str8 front to back. To line up the bullet holes in the hoodie and undershirt to the gunshot wound, the hoodie and undershirt have to be pulled down, and to the left to line up.

      Add this all up and the defendant pulled the victim towards himself and held him in place to shoot the victim. The hoodie and undershirt, do not have any weight, to cause as much pulling as it happened on the night of the murder. The can did not even weigh the shirt down, nor does it provide adequate gravitational pull for the pulling that occurred. Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.

      Omara will not be able to explain this away to match the defendant’s story, because the defendant’s story is a complete lie

      Reply
      • Jamekia Bell says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        Jun ~ I said the same thing. I believe GZ was pulling on TM hoodie trying to detained him.
        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

        Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:28 pm

        Great expert.

        WE all had that figured about 10 minutes after that evidence dump came out, with the ballistics and photos of clothing in.

        Of course he had to wait till he wrote a book about it, so he can go on TV with this wrong assessment to plug the book.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 14, 2013 at 10:43 pm

          @aussie. Just read your comment and one before and something occurred to me. Maybe Judge Nelson is not granting continuances because of books and Junior’s media’s rants potentially tainting the jury pool. There are also attempts to intimidate and harm witnesses. O’Mara already made in known in court that internet bloggers doxed the wrong DeeDee.

          Reply
      • onlyiamunitron says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:37 pm

        “b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away. ”

        Is that supposed to mean that the gun was about an arm’s length away from Martin’s chest when it was fired?

        If so, then both of Zimmerman’s arms being about the same length as each other means that if he has a grip on the hoodie and the shirt underneath with one hand, that arm would have to be fully extended and the one holding the gun would have to be back holding the gun against his own chest with his wrist bent at almost a 90 degree angle, which seems a most peculiar way to fire a gun.

        “Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.”

        I’m curious as to your source for that assertion.

        If that was said in any of the official reports I must have somehow missed seeing it.

        Someone must have removed the can from the bag and put it back in one of Trayvon’s pockets, because the can was there to get in the way of the cops and paramedics trying to do CPR and whatnot.

        They specifically mention feeling it when they lifted his shirt to get to the wound to try to seal it.

        unitron

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:16 am

        The crime scene layout evidence

        It showed the bag and can to be at the east of the body

        The muzzle to target distance is about a foot, but the defendant was about an arm’s length away when he fired the weapon

        Reply
      • Dennis says:
        February 15, 2013 at 5:05 am

        It is hard to believe the media trolls. Most of them think the prosecution has a weak case. They are all braindead and do not follow the actual evidence in the case.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 16, 2013 at 9:48 am

          That’s not quite true. I’ve been watching the news for over half a century now, starting from back when we had Reporters like Walter Cronkite and Eric Severid. Back then people had more face to face social contact than we have today. The media had to think of what their listeners were going to sound like, sprouting news reports that were too badly skewed.

          Back then, if a report got a big story wrong, you weren’t likely to see them on tv ever again. Reporters lived on their credibility, thus they mostly worked their reports themselves, or at least took a hand in the writing. It was their careers that were on the line. Not so today. Today the reports are written in the back rooms. The people you see on the air are simply “talking heads”, reading scripts! They, themselves, probably don’t pay any attention to the news, because they realize quickly that, knowing that what you are being asked to say is wrong, kinda makes it difficult to keep your job. So, in on air broadcasting, ignorance is bliss. You can easily say whatever is required, to please corporate, because you don’t know or care about any of it.

          Believe me, they know what they’re doing. They know when they’re presenting a slanted story, because they have to decide what facts to leave out. If they didn’t know and understand the truth, they wouldn’t know how to fashion a credible lie. One that makes them look, at worse negligent or uninformed, as opposed to fashioning a story that makes them appear to be overt liars. So, they have to know what they’re doing and they have to be very careful, how they go about doing it.

          Reply
      • onlyiamunitron says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:51 am

        All those official crime scene photos and drawings and diagrams were made after the attempts at first aid on Trayvon had occurred.

        The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.

        Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.

        Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.

        unitron

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 7:42 am

        Well the hoodie and undershirt had to have been held firmly in place when the shot was fired otherwise there would be different readings and different forensics

        If the clothing was loosely hanging, the momentum of the gunshot would have caused the fabric to also go into the body because of the gunshot, unless it was firmly held in place

        Reply
      • roderick2012 says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:17 am

         onlyiamunitron says:The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
        Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.

        I am fairly sure that George placed the can into Trayvon’s hoodie after he shot him because as I explained on another site:

        1) If Trayvon had decided to ditch the bag and place his snacks in his hoodie pocket then he would have placed both the bag of Skittles and the can of soda, but the bag of Skittles was on the ground and the bag was near Trayvon which rules out that theory.

        2) If Trayvon had used his soda can as the ‘brick’ that Zimmerman claimed hit him he would have dropped the bag around the tea where he supposedly ambushed George. That didn’t happen because the bag was near Trayvon’s body along with the Skittles plus how was Trayvon able to put the can of soda into his hoodie after he punched George, slammed George’s head into the concrete sidewalk , smothered George in under a minute and had enough time to place the can of soda into his hoodie before George shot him

        3) Trayvon placed the can of soda into his hoodie pocket after he was shot.

        “Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.”
        I could have sworn that George stated that his arm was fully extended when he shot Trayvon.

        Unitron, just go back to Talkleft with the rest of the trolls.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 2:30 pm

          Thank You !! I thought the Professor sent him packing a month ago.

          For the record, again, anyone who signs their name as uni does on an internet site has issues.

          Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 17, 2013 at 5:20 pm

          roderick~ GZ not only stated his arm was extended, he SHOWED it in several videotaped interviews. It’s about the only thing he has stayed consistent about; NOT shooting his left hand!

          Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:48 am

        Was the can ever in his pocket before the shooting? At the 7-11, he put the Skittles in his pocket and carried the can in his bag – probably to keep it somewhat cool (putting it in his pocket and close to his body would cause it to warm up faster).

        Reply
  87. Nefertari05 says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    Weeks of 4/22 & 4/29 set aside for immunity hearing, but will discuss next week,2/22 whether to “roll immunity hearing into trial”. Also, 2/22 argument to depose Crump. Attys believe/agree on 500 ppl jury pool needed.

    Reply
  88. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    shannon, it’s not being covered now, they were waiting for the feed on WESH but says not happening now.

    Updates by Kealing’s texts

    1:16 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    Attorneys in #GeorgeZimmerman murder case say they will need jury pool of 500. #TrayvonMartin

    Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2KuVxaNPN

    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense next Friday 2/22 will argue to depose #TrayvonMartin family attorney #Crump.

    1:12 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense indicates they may seek to roll immunity hearing in to trial. For now judge sets aside two weeks 4-22 and 4-29.

    1:09 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense asks for immunity hearing weeks of April 22 and 29 but will discuss rolling the issue in to the trial next week.

    Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:21 pm

      A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?

      Reply
      • onlyiamunitron says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:51 pm

        “A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?”

        They have to find, in the area around where Trayvon’s death took place, people who haven’t been paying any attention to the news coverage of the case and haven’t formed any sort of opinion about it. Enough of them to seat a jury of 6, plus however many alternates they think they’ll need.

        I’m thinking not so much excessive as excessively optimistic.

        unitron

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 2:24 pm

        Sounds excessive. But then again, MOM will seek to exclude all blacks, sympathetic Hispanics, and anybody with any contact at all with teens! Yeah,500 will probably be a starter set!

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
        • mountainmanpat says:
          February 16, 2013 at 2:28 pm

          A jury made up of Afro Peruvians only… 🙂

          PS Cielo….2 cents?………you didn’t?….. naughty girl 😉

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:03 pm

            Lets face reality here people. The way this is going for FogenPhoole, I’ll bet there are 4 black moms with good jobs and 17 year old sons at home……on the jury. One children’s rights activist and one nurse.

            The nurse will really be the key…..

    • Nefertari05 says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      This whole “rolling into trial” thing is interesting.
      1. There’s the shift of burden of proof issue.
      2. There’s the “preponderance” vs. the “beyond a reasonable doubt” issue. Which one holds?
      3. There’s the who goes first issue.
      4. Who decides issue – the judge or the jury.Can the judge override the jury. Is fogen going for a bench trial, now?
      5. Would this really have any effect other than to render him immune from civil litigation, in the event of a “not guilty, by reason of self-defense”?
      6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution?

      Is O’Mara just having one of those “My client wants to testify for you, judge, but not be cross examined by the state” fantasies?Questions, Questions, I have many questions. The main one is, has O’Mara lost his mind, or is he sly like a fox.

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:46 pm

        “6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution? ”

        He’s admitting defeat with that. He’s saying “WTF, we can’t win so keep going as I’m not getting paid anyway.”

        When he looses a SYG hearing any lawyer would want time to prepare for trial. He’s basically saying “If we lose an Immunity Hearing, we have nothing anyway so what the point”

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:58 pm

        It’s a use of words to try to help them avoid looking defeated. There is no such thing as a “self-defense hearing” unless it’s a SYG. O’Mara said it’s not SYG and of course it’s not SYG. Saying he wanted a separate hearing doesn’t mean he was going to either get one or be able to make a decent presentation at one. So he has to concede that he goes to trial. At trial of course a defendant’s allowed to claim “traditional self-defense.” He’s saying he will do that — OK, big deal. “Rolling” something that doesn’t exist “into the trial” simply means he can’t make a proper showing and he won’t be able to set, prepare or use a hearing, so he’s got to choose between plea or trial. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! 😆

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 9:15 pm

          I think Judge Nelson will simply say…..file a SYG Motion or off to trial we go. We DON”T make up new court procedures to placate your client…..De – nied………….for the 3rd time.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:26 pm

        Fogenhats does not want to take the stand

        His testimony does not mean crap, if it is not under oath and cross examination, therefore, it is scrutinized for credibility

        If Fogenhats refuses cross examination and under oath, then his testimony is struck as meaningless and forgotten

        How can Omara even have a preponderance, when he has not turned in anything of substance or submitted anything for admissibility into the SYG trial and the big trial?

        Omara at the SYG, if he goes forward with it, has nothing to present except maybe 2 photographs, which do not mean much, once you look at the whole picture

        Omara can not present Fogenhats’ statements for him, because, that would constitute hearsay, and none of his statements fall under any exceptions

        The state can selectively submit Fogenhats’ statements whereby Omara would be unable to finish the totality

        The state can also prove its case without any statements by Fogenhats at all, except the NEN, but that is present sense impression and excited utterances

        As for Fogenhats’ assertions of what constitutes suspicion, then many doors are opened that cant be closed once opened, if Omara wants to go there

        If Fogenhats takes the stand, all that it will add to the case, is that he is a proven bold faced liar, on top of being the killer

        Reply
      • Tzar says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:13 pm

        Please forgive me but either we are all a bunch of idiots or O’Mara is a fucking idiot for thinking that we are a bunch of idiots.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:18 pm

        You cant roll the immunity hearing into the trial

        the trial, he can claim self defense, which is an immunity hearing, but it must abide by the self defense application rules

        Aggravated Stalking, uttering threats, aggravated assault, and murder is not something that is considered self defense by reasonable and sane people

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm

        typo

        *isnt an immunity hearing

        Reply
      • Dennis says:
        February 15, 2013 at 5:02 am

        I would rather have a bench trial than a jury trial. It is completely evident from hundreds of cases that the jury does not always get it right. They want people on the jury who have not heard about the case. The problem is, those people they want are the same idiots who don’t pay any attention to the world around them and live in a box. Those are the most dangerous people to put on a jury. Look at what happened with the Casey Anthony trial. Casey told every lie in the book regarding her daughter’s death, yet the jury was so braindead they thought the child died in an accident. Accidents don’t require you to put duct tape over your child’s mouth, put them in a trash bag, throw them into a swamp like trash, and finally accuse a perfectly innocent person of killing your child. I’m never going to get over that verdict, no matter what anyone says. Those jurors are going to live with that horrific decision for the rest of their lives. If someone doesn’t have the balls to convict someone of murder, they should not serve on a jury.

        If it looks like murder, smells like murder, it probably is murder.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 16, 2013 at 9:36 am

          Yes but that gets balanced out by the fact that judges are captives of the system themselves, they depend on prosecutors and police to bring them cases, as we see each time when police are accused of crimes, the judges come under enormous pressures. If you’re not politically connected and your case is even close to a toss up, you can hardly expect many judges to go your way.

          Before you opt for a bench trial, you had better do your homework and find out just how well noted your judge is for his independence.

          Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:08 pm

        O’Mara has clearly lost his mind. How could any practicing attorney believe there’s a way to have a defendant take the witness stand and not be subjected to cross examination? SYG and a trial are provided for as two separate hearings, not to be combined in a trial. MOM will have to choose between them or, if he runs out the clock and the trial is to begin, the judge will simply deny the SYG hearing. The law does not say a defendant is entitled to both.

        Why do the police reports say that TM was wearing “blue jeans”???

        Reply
      • Erica says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:50 pm

        maybe mom wants to see the prosecution’s hand without showing his…as far as the syg hearing. I think he setting forgen up to say he, mom, was an incompetent attorney.

        Reply
  89. shannoninmiami says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    anyone know where else to watch the hearing?

    Reply
  90. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    gorget the wesh feed, not happening now

    We will not have the livestream of this hearing. Bob Kealing will live tweet it below and will have a full report on WESH when it’s over.
    by Kevin Clay/WESH.com Staff 1:04 PM

    Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2KuUsnJfP

    Reply
  91. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    maybe problems with the feeds

    Reply
  92. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    defense calling Ben Crumps attny to see if he can be deposed next week

    Reply
  93. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    mistake, posted two links for coverage, the livewire video is still holding on a drizzly grey weather view from the courthouse

    http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case

    text updates find it at cfnews13

    Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 5:40 pm

      Here’s a real weird thing: website showing the hearing has a caption under it claiming:

      “Zimmerman’s lawyers may ask for immunity for their client at that hearing. The logistics of jury selection will also be discussed.”

      Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2Kuq3AGML

      OK, wait a minute. IMMUNITY for their client at that hearing? That hearing is about their client as the DEFENDANT! Who gives a DEFENDANT immunity at a hearing on his own criminal case?

      Why not just give him immunity altogether and then ask him politely if he will tell us what happened that night, how’s that?

      Or do I have to go purchase a handgun so I can say, “Now I’ve seen everything!” and make it a cartoon image? 😈

      Reply
    • roderick2012 says:
      February 15, 2013 at 10:39 am

      aussie says:Immunity from prosecution = SYG

      So why is O’Mara discussing jury selection during the same hearing?

      Because he knows that George won’t testify or even if he does he won’t win immunity.

      Reply
  94. ay2z says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    Live wire coverage on WESH
    http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case

    Text updates on cfnews13
    http://www.cfnews13.com/chat.html

    nothing happening yet on either.

    Reply
  95. Nefertari05 says:
    February 14, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    Is anyone livesteaming the hearing?

    Reply
  96. diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
    February 14, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    What time is the hearing today?

    Reply
  97. Dennis says:
    February 14, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    News: Zimmerman Jr appearing on the Bill Maher show on HBO, Friday at 10:00pm. Maher has been very vocal regarding this case and I expect him to literally own junior.

    Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 3:09 pm

      And I hope he then sells him at a discount.

      Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      I hope Bill spanks JR’s lying ass on national TV!! anything less is a complete sell out!

      Reply
      • Dennis says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:03 am

        Make sure to get your popcorn ready in time…it is going to be an interesting show. I want Maher to own him so bad that Jr breaks down in tears. Somebody has to make that idiot realize that the only time he is ever seeing his brother again is through a glass window in a room full of felons. I wonder if they search his asshole for drugs when he goes to visit poor Fogen. LMFAO

        Reply
  98. mountainmanpat says:
    February 14, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    This could have been Trayvon possibly?

    http://theclicker.today.com/_news/2013/02/14/16961538-teen-wins-jeopardy-with-hilarious-risky-play?lite

    Or just another young black thug that needs to be put down early to save taxpayers money?…..

    Ya’ll have no idea the depths to which I loathe fogen.

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 14, 2013 at 1:38 pm

      I’ll take “Fabulous Game Show Winners with a Great Sense of Humor” for all the marble Alex !!!!

      Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 14, 2013 at 2:03 pm

      Oh, I don’t just loathe fogen, but his little outhouse friends too. I know that is one black 17-year-old they won’t be featuring on their blog.

      God they make me sick.

      Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 14, 2013 at 2:35 pm

      @MMP, you couldn’t possible loathe him any more than I do. I think we need to form a line when it comes to the number of people who loathe this LYING, MURDERING POS. the same goes for his family as well, as far as I’m concerned. this FAT @$$ lump of NOTHING did not have to shoot this kid. he did so because he wanted to and I’m not going to believe otherwise. he had a gun and he wanted a chance to use it so, this is why he shot and killed an innocent child who was not bothering him or anybody else.

      I will always believe that his BFF Osterman as well as the grand dragon Taaffe was right there when he committed his murder. what other reason are they sticking to him like stink on shit? as for some of the witnesses in that complex, there is a select few who knew exactly what was going to go down that night and, they are lying and not telling everything they know about what Fogen did to Trayvon. witness 11 knew who was screaming and why because, she was outside up until a certain point during her 911 call and it’s very telling.

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:48 pm

        “I think we need to form a line when it comes to the number of people who loathe this LYING, MURDERING POS. the same goes for his family as well, ……”

        I’ll be first in line…..count on that !! They behead people in the Middle East for less than FogenPhoole did.

        Reply
      • Aunt Bea says:
        February 14, 2013 at 8:10 pm

        The clarity in the screams on the 911 call led me to believe she was at least very near an open window. When I found out her rear area was blocked off from a view of the back yard, I just couldn’t picture them being “blind” to the activities going on. (I would have been upstairs in just a couple of heartbeats) and getting a better view.

        They have a balcony, I believe. I tend to think “Jeremy” was low-crawling out onto that balcony. Her saying “get in here” and “get up here” could both make sense.

        Just speculatin’.

        Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 15, 2013 at 1:21 am

        @racer, you can be first in line my friend and, I hope your Valentines Day was a very good one for you and your special someone.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 11:35 am

          Took the family out for dinner and all in all was a great day. I hope yours, and everyone here had an enjoyable Valentines Day !

          Reply
    • bonniespapermache says:
      February 14, 2013 at 2:48 pm

      I watched the teen tournament. It was an exciting end!
      Leonard was great. He’s going far in life !
      They showed his Mom in the audience with tears running down her cheek. I know she is so proud of her son.

      Reply
  99. cielo62 says:
    February 14, 2013 at 11:06 am

    CRANE-STATION~ TOTALLY OFF TOPIC, a little something to make you and your bird smile!
    http://cuteoverload.com/2013/02/11/to-the-birdmobile/

    Reply
  100. Erica says:
    February 14, 2013 at 10:56 am

    New youtube video of recent evidence analysis http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBloodStain_zps35b8e69f.jpg

    Reply
    • Erica says:
      February 14, 2013 at 10:57 am

      wrong link its

      Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:05 am

        What an idiot. An “expert” that ignores 75% of the known forensic evidence!! I can hardly wait to see him get dismantled by the prosecution!

        Reply
      • willisnewton says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:44 am

        Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell. He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct.

        Of course, the gap between the t shirt and hoodie could also have been caused by Fogen pulling with his other hand, while illegally trying to detain the youth, as he himself spoke about in regards to the “help” he claims he was asking for.

        I’ll not make judgements about his book until I read it. But channel six did a good job, and it also looks like they threw in two new shots from the night of the shooting – one showing the “pseudo ridgeline” possibly over on RVC and another that may include the body but is improperly exposed.

        Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:16 pm

        @ willisnewton

        I think you defeat your own argument when you at the same time, on the one hand argue that “ Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell”, and on the other hand that “He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct”.

        By the way, this “expert” did his demo standing face to face with his “victim”, both hands fully stretched and aimed at the “victim’s” heart. GZ claims that he was lying on his back with Trayvon mounted on his stomach, straddling, suffocating him, etc. Also, when the kill shot was fired, GZ’s elbow was on the ground, bent and extended to the right away from his body. From that position, GZ could not have made the same shot produced in the demo of this “expert”. There is NO SUBSTANTIVE relationship between the demo of this “expert” and the Zimmerman-scenario. Applying the results of the demo to GZ is a serious non-sequitur (no relationship between premise and conclusion; conclusion does not logically flow/follw from the premise). Based on that it is also hard to see how this “expert” “seems factually correct” (whatever you mean by that).

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 5:57 pm

          I’ll have to second that. Here’s an expert trying to tell us that there’s good and sufficient reason to believe the claims of the defendant, yet he’s modified his experiment to obtain the results he claims demonstrate the truth of the matter.

          That is not something an “expert” should ever do. If and when any expert is caught doing this in front of a jury, the answer is swift and resounding repudiation.

          What I think is happening here is, this “expert” has noted that the GZ supporters lack expert opinion. So, he’s decided that, without compromising himself too badly, he can rush in, fill the gap, and make a ton of money. I think he’s misled. He probably doesn’t realize that the 300k GZ received was a result of “bundling” by the racists. They have software they use to make it appear that huge donations really come from a large number of small donors. When, in fact, they come from a few large donors.

          I expect this guy’s book will do about as well as Osterman’s. While this case has moved a huge number of eyeballs, it hasn’t moved much money at all. This is because most people don’t feel they have much power to do anything except to put their support behind the family of Trayvon and express their outrage at the way this case has been handled. I think most people today are savvy that huge public interest stories will be used to pry dollars from their hands by some individuals. So, people are not going to respond to indiscriminate reaches for their money.

          Reply
      • willisnewton says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:11 pm

        searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom. All I am saying is that he managed to produce a similar stipple and hole pattern by aligning the two shirts three inches apart. I find no fault with that conclusion, and in fact we see him replicate the test for tv news.

        Many things are possible; what GZ claims about his MOVEMENTS is not possible. In my opinion he’s established a pattern of lying that can be extended into the missing minutes by a skillful prosecutor to enable a jury to convict him of M2.

        I don’t pretend that ANY of the circumstantial evidence and forensic mumbo jumbo is anything more than fodder for almost endless argument for either side at trial. But I know it can be proven BARD that GZ did not move from clubhouse are to cut thru area in the way he described to SPD, and therefor is without credibility, and guilty of lying to investigators at minimum. He pursued the teen with his car and on foot and lies about it. Whatever route you take to “prove” the rest is fine by me.

        Reply
      • rnewton32 says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:18 pm

        Is this Knox guy testifying for the defense?

        Reply
      • rnewton32 says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:29 pm

        If I see one more book come out capitalizing off this child’s murder, I think I am going to scream. All of this should be handled in the courtroom. Why is this being allowed? I agree with Lonnie. This is creating a forum to misinform millions and taint the potential jury pool. This is just wrong. That’s why I ask, is this dude going to be an expert for the defense. If so, why is he discussing the case. I thought MOM said he would not have experts in time for trial.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:01 am

        I bought the kindle version of the book.

        He presents a lot of information about what crime scene re-en actors do. There is a certification process but there are only about 12 in the entire country that are certified. He doesn’t claim that he is certified.

        Much of the book is a summary of the evidence taken directly from the various reports. Some of it directly quoted, some of it summarized or paraphrased.

        It is defendant-friendly.
        * He states that first names are used for children and last names for adults. but he has a problem with people who refer to Trayvon (friendly) and Z….. (cold and unfriendly)

        * He states, “If the prosecutors cannot put on a witness who saw [the defendant] attack Trayvon, the jury will have to assume [the defendant’s] testimony to be true.”

        * While he includes discrepancies and inconsistencies in the defendant’s account, these are included as notes in the back of the book, not in line where they can be considered with the rest of his account.

        * “We do know [the defendant’s] nose was broken.” Really? How? He includes nothing that justifies “know”.

        * His conclusion is that the only witness who saw anything useful is witness 6 who heard the head banging, that Trayvon was on top and in control, and he uses “ground and pound” as evidence even though that statement was retracted.

        * He mentions the DNA findings on the clothing but no mention of the lack of the defendant’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands.

        * He mentions that Trayvon has a couple of scars but he doesn’t bother to point out that there is no evidence of bruising or cuts on Trayvon’s hands, apart from the small cut on the inside of one finger.

        * Even though he includes the defendant’s discussion with Doris Singleton while waiting for the vst analyst, including the question about whether or not she has ever shot anyone and her answer, he neglects to include the defendant’s comment about her authority would never be questioned.

        * In speaking about the stress test analyst: “The investigator wasn’t listening; he was trying to remember where the Zimmerman he knew during his submariner days was from.” ( analyst was navy rz was army.) Huh? How does he know that the analyst wasn’t listening or what he was thinking? No evidence was presented to support that conclusion.

        * He includes the vsa analyst’s description of the vsa but when he includes a press statement about a “lie detector” statement in the press, he doesn’t bother to point out that the vsa and a lie detector are two different things. Nor does he point out the fallibility of the vsa. He does include FBI quotes that the questions were too soft to determine anything.

        * “There’s no indication that Z was under the influence of alcohol or any illicit drug.” This may be a true statement but we’ll never know.

        * He mentions that the clubhouse is halfway between where the defendant first saw Trayvon and the location of the shooting. I think it’s more like 25-30% of the way.

        * There is no mention of Serino interview where Z claims to have a wrist lock and admits control of Trayvon.

        New “catches” me
        * Vsa analyst: “Before that gun’s directly aimed at his chest?”
        Defendant: “Correct. I was ON HIM. I knew I was – “

        * In the walk-thru, the car circling happened on Twin Trees Lane; in the Serino/Singleton interview it happened at the clubhouse. The author didn’t point out this discrepancy in the defendant’s stories.

        Some conclusions he made worth noting:

        * He claims the altercation started at the T based on the defendant’s key and flashlight and the 7-11 bag.

        * He claims there was an additional yell for help after the shot.

        Excerpt:
        We know that [the defendant] went to his doctor’s office the following day and was diagnosed with ”scalp lacerations”, a broken nose, and black eyes.

        Z was seen by Lindzee Folgate, a physician’s assistant at [location] Folgate noted that Z complained of “nasal pain” and was “involved in an altercation” during which “ he was assaulted, punched in the face, and shoved to the ground where his head was hit into the pavement multiple times.” “During the altercation,” Folgate noted, “he had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm and he fired at the attacker, killing him….He denies [headaches], change in [visual acuity], slurred speech, dizziness, or gait abnormality.” Folgate also noted that Z admitted to “occasional nausea when thinking about the violence last night”. “No sutures needed given well approximated skin margins,” “Continue to clean with soap and water daily. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist [sic] for evaluation.” “We discussed that [his nose] is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ent but he refused.”
        End excerpt

        Author’s conclusion of broken nose and elsewhere of “know” broken nose isn’t supported by “likely broken” but w/o septal deviation and no followup treatment.

        Question: Can the written report get admitted as evidence? If so, it lays out the hearsay of how the defendant got his injuries. This info would be objected to as hearsay if presented by the NP during her testimony.

        Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          February 16, 2013 at 7:44 pm

          This “expert” is awful. Should MOM be stupid enough to hire this bozo, it will be fun watching him get destroyed on cross examination.

          Sent from my iPod

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:38 am

        The guy fails to take into account other facts in the case

        a) All he has somewhat proved is that the shirt and the hoodie were 3 or more inches in front of the body when shot

        b) The target he had in front of the actual target, the extra layer of clothing, had to be held firmly in place, otherwise the clothing which made contact with the muzzle during the shot, would have expelled the clothing backward into the body, and then caused other forensic traces to have taken place

        c) The hoodie and undershirt had to be pulled down, and to the left, to line up the bulletholes with the wound in the chest, and to match the front to back trajectory

        d) It does not conclusively prove that the shot was fired while the defendant was on his back and the victim was hovering over the defendant. All he proved was that the hoodie and undershirt had to be held firmly in front of the target to match the readings of the forensics.

        Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:50 am

        @ Willisnewton

        Yous said: “searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom.”

        NO, SIR! I SAID NO SUCH THING.

        What is essentially said is that the demo proves the OPPOSITE of what the “expert” concluded, i.e. GZ could not have been on the bottom.GZ must have been on top OR standing face to face with GZ.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 15, 2013 at 7:51 am

        I also see other mistakes in his tests

        a) There was also a piece of cardboard upon the shirt, and the gunshot went through the front and back of one shirt to get into the other, while he firmly held the cardboard piece with the shirt in front of it. The combination drastically changes the outcome

        b) They noted the stippling was 2 x 2 inches, not over 2 x 2 inches

        I think the major point he failed to realize is the news reporter stated “placed” and it was shown, he held the contact shot piece in front of the other

        c) If the victim was leaning forward, there is another gravitational pull in effect because after being shot, the person would fall forward

        Reply
      • kllypyn says:
        February 15, 2013 at 12:35 pm

        thats bull crap trayvon was not leaning over him zimmerman was holding onto his shirt his shirt the bullet path through trayvon’s body show he was standing when he was shot.

        Reply
  101. Lynn says:
    February 14, 2013 at 9:49 am

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-pistorius-reportedly-had-arsenal-at-home-to-allay-fear-of-invasion-122246774.html

    Another interesting shooting. Not Fogen related though. Just sad.

    Reply
  102. roderick2012 says:
    February 14, 2013 at 9:39 am

    I hope that Judge Nelson doesn’t grant the ’emergency’ meeting that the defense is requesting because they had plenty of time on February 5th to request any items that they wanted.

    The defense also wants to pressure Judge Nelson to make a decision on whether Crump’s affidavit is adequate to exempt him from being deposed.

    I doubt that Judge Nelson will appreciate the defense attempting to bully her about this matter since they have been dragging their feet and have canceled a majority of the scheduled hearings.

    If Judge Nelson does grant the emergency request she should force the defense to bring the CD’s that the state gave them and force them to play them in court to make sure they are blank and the defense isn’t bullchitting again.

    Reply
  103. pat deadder says:
    February 14, 2013 at 9:13 am

    May I just say imho because God knows that’s all I have.I personally don’t believe one thing fogen said describing what happened.I believed he walked over saw Trayvon strolling down the path went back towards his truck was angry because the teenager was no longer afraid.I think he went down between the houses on the same side as his truck then was not far behind TM Thats when TMtold DeeDee he was follow him again.fogen confronted Trayvon.When Trayvon saw the gun he began runnig north fogen caught up.TM screaming.fogen murdered him.Probably makes no sense with evidence.

    Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 14, 2013 at 10:37 am

      I believe in six things Fogen said, namely:

      a. “he is a black male”
      b. “he is running”
      c. “he ran”
      d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
      e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
      f. “I shot him”.

      The rest is fantasy.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:11 am

        Good flash story!

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:22 pm

        Since about June I’ve been saying that there are only 2 things Fogen has said about this event we know are true not including the obvious which you have as a. b. c. d. & e.

        1) “…and then I got out of my truck…”
        2) “…I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot” (stupid shoulder
        shrug)

        I believe in six things Fogen said, name
        a. “he is a black male”
        b. “he is running”
        c. “he ran”
        d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
        e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
        f. “I shot him”.

        The rest is fantasy.

        We could add “…I was on him…”

        There are thousands of pages of documentation, statements, reenactments, interviews etc and there are 7 things we agree are the truth, 8 if we agree “…I was on him..” is valid and I see no reason to dispute that. I will defer to you on #8

        FogenPhoolePhantsy…..damn straight.

        Reply
  104. Rachael says:
    February 14, 2013 at 8:15 am

    http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4604&utm_source=Conservative+Daily+News+Weekly+Letter&utm_campaign=474dea3d7f-MC_NEWSLTR_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

    Award for Trayvon

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 14, 2013 at 12:48 pm

      That’s a great thing to be honest. I’ve talked about Trayvon being a reason to get this racist ideology stopped and outlawed.

      By the way, notice the racist comments on that site…..They’ll never get it……….Never.

      Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:59 pm

        You can’t outlaw an ideology.
        You CAN punish murder.
        You MUST punish cover-ups of murder instituted because of racist ideology in official places.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 5:51 pm

          You can punish those who commit crimes based on ideology however, which is what I really meant. Like the KKK, Neo – Nazi’s and the like.

          Reply
  105. Jun says:
    February 14, 2013 at 2:26 am

    This is the problem I see with Omara’s argument regarding the difference between SYG and what he calls traditional self defense hearing

    a) There is less flexibility with the self defense law written beforehand

    b) The way he is interpreting the law, the victim, Trayvon, would have absolutely no rights whatsoever, for simply trying to avoid the aggravated stalking of the defendant

    I say this because, let us say Trayvon did pin the defendant on the ground and then yell for help. The SYG specifically states that one is allowed to use reasonable force to defend themselves. From the evidence, the incident started when the defendant decided to target and stalk the victim. The victim tried a reasonable means by running away to avoid the situation. The victim thought he lost the defendant, so he decides to walk. Soon, he notices that the defendant is about to catch up to him, so the victim tries to escape again. The victim soon gets worn out and tries to talk his way out of the situation by asking “why the defendant was stalking him”. The defendant once he catches the victim confronts him and lets him know the victim, according to him, has no right to walk down the street or avoid him or be around anywhere walking down the street, which is translated from his “What are you doing around here?” really angrily. The defendant than attacks the victim, to which the victim is heard saying and telling the defendant to “get off him”.

    Obviously, even without any fighting training, the victim tries to get away, by yelling for help, and trying to get the defendant off of him…

    I honestly feel w6 is lying, because the forensics do not show the defendant ever being reasonably on his back for any amount of time, and even then, maybe 1 second on his back, but that is being generous, considering his back contained no debris or grass smears at all (grass is hard to get out of clothing)… but even if we are to believe w6, clearly by the witnesses and forensics, Fogenhats initiated and instigated the whole turn of events and then escalated the turn of events

    Reply
    • Bill Taylor says:
      February 14, 2013 at 12:03 pm

      exactly, IF fogen had shimmied himself away from the sidewalk the upperback of his jacket would SHOW that clearly, bir wrinkles and mud/grass smears because all of his and martins weight would be on that shimmying part making ground contact.

      Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:11 pm

        He would have also had some damage done to his jacket as well, as in tearing it in some places or there would have been some shredding of his jacket. a liar is a dangerous person and, Fogen is both.

        Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:45 pm

      Right, Jun, and that’s what Fogen and his Outhousers and Chief Lee and Mouth Mahaney (et al.) really MEAN: Trayvon Martin was inferior and was not entitled to protection or respect. Thus, when Fogen sought to nail him and tail him, his was not to question why. His was not to “run” or to “get away” or to “mouth off [Lee’s words! I believe]” or to fight back in any way, shape or form. He was not allowed to “savagely attack” his natural superior! He was required to scrape and bow and say, in effect, “Yassuh, what is it that I have done to displease you massa?”

      Why didn’t he know that?

      He didn’t know that because it is a secret code, not public information. Up until 1865 it WAS public information in the South but now it is a secret code. And if you allude to that secret code, you are being a “reverse racist.” As Maher says, denying racism is the new racism.

      Trayvon Martin has been branded (postmortem, to the everlasting shame and disgrace of all who take part in it) a thug because he (allegedly) tried to defend his own life. He was, according to them, not allowed to try that. Under any circumstances.

      And this is what we are fighting. Liars and murderers who have their own twisted view of the world and they have guns. OMG.

      Reply
      • pat deadder says:
        February 15, 2013 at 9:05 am

        Do you think Omara is consulting with Bill Lee or that guy who supposedl named his son after fogen’s father and are they witnesses in the trial. Sorry I’m very bad with names.

        Reply
  106. kimmi says:
    February 14, 2013 at 1:20 am

    Happy Valentine’s Day Everyone!!

    Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 14, 2013 at 2:23 am

      You too!

      Reply
    • Trained Observer says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:05 am

      U2 … (Also, kimmi, left you a response on how many jurors. I was mistaken on a couple of points.)

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:04 pm

        No problem, thank you! It was one of the things I learned here.
        I thought, until this case, juries always had 12 people, which was much to my suprise. I still haven’t checked to see how that compares with other states. Where I am, (MI), I think it is 12, but I’m not really sure anymore. I might try to research that after I get to the end of this page, if I can get to it before the daughter gets home from school.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:22 pm

        I tried researching the number of jurors for the different states, and it seems like most states have 12 jurors for criminal cases.

        I’m all confuzzled why Florida would only have 6, as I was before, and I don’t quite understand the differences from state to state.
        Oh well, it must be a decision left up to each state, I guess.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm

        Racerrodig, yes that is true in Florida, 12 for capital cases, but states w/o capital murder (death penalty), like MI, use 12 jurors.

        Maybe that is the difference?

        The states with the death penalty use 6 jurors for criminal cases, 12 for capital murder, whereas, states like MI, (w/o death penalty), use 12 jurors for criminal cases?

        Maybe we figured it out!!

        I found this a few ago, although still nothing for each state.

        GENERAL PRINCIPLES IN CRIMINAL TRIALS

        “[B] Required Number of Jurors – Although a jury composed of as few as six persons is constitutional [Williams v. Florida, 399 U.S. 78 (1970)], the current requirement in federal criminal trials is that a jury must be composed of twelve persons [Fed. R. Crim. P. 23(a)] Many states likewise require a 12-person jury in criminal trials.”

        http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/study/outlines/html/crim/crim02.htm

        Reply
  107. ay2z says:
    February 13, 2013 at 11:47 pm

    Another Trayvon Martin video with Bill Maher.

    Reply
  108. ay2z says:
    February 13, 2013 at 11:30 pm

    Investigation Discovery, if you don’t get it on tv, there’s a program on racial profiling on the website (US).

    http://investigation.discovery.com/tv-shows/injustice-files/videos/hood-of-suspicion-xtras-the-impacts-of-racial-profiling.htm

    Reply
  109. Cercando Luce says:
    February 13, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    New thought:
    1. Both DeeDee and Jenna (during her FDLE -I think- inyerview) say they heard a man say “What’re you doin’….” Jenna said it sounded like someone who was drunk, and DeeDee said it sounded like an “old man.” Jenna said she had the impression of about 4 men outside.
    2. Racerrodig mentions the possibility of someone in the background on Jenna’s 911 recording saying “keep ’em down”? or “kill ’em now”
    3. Mark Osterman for weeks kept GZ and SZ very close, right in his house. He advised GZ from the moment they left the police station together and encouraged GZ to do the interviews, to do the reenactment with himself right there. Why? Because MO bears some responsibility for this murder, but GZ is the one prosecuted. Dirty Mark is deeply involved.

    Could he have been acting like some kind of director? He might have held the victim for Z. He was right there! Was he helping GZ become a “made man” (in Osterman’s eyes)? Why is he so deeply involved, and what was his involvement?

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:26 pm

      You have it nailed. There is a lot more going on here than an aborted shopping trip.

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:30 am

        There’s something fishy as Deedee was told that it was a creepy old white man

        Not arguing that Fogenhats aint creepy or considered old, but the white man part… that is where you think Ostertrench or Taffe may be involved somehow…

        For example, how would Taffe know intimate details like “Trayvon did not answer Fogenhats properly” or he would not have gotten it

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 12:21 pm

          The Chief Zidiots, Papa Z, Mama Z, Jr, Taaffe, Osterman & Oliver all speak in 1st person or as if they saw the entire thing and God help you if you ask “…were you there…” especially JO Jr…..uhhhh.

          The best part is that all of the have a slightly to very different version compared to FogenPhoole and each other.

          Note to the Zidiot Nation……post what “Version of the Day” you plan to use so we won’t have so much material to beat you up with.

          I’ll take “Inconsistent & Preposterous Statements” for $5,000.00 Alex

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 1:41 pm

          That’s a very good question, since everyone else seems to be able to identify GZ as a Hispanic guy, even when it’s so dark they can’t see what clothes they’re wearing, eh?

          Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:21 pm

        Jun, DeeDee was not TOLD the voice she heard was from an old creepy white man, SHE described the voice that way. “Creepy” and “white” she had already heard from Trayvon when he was telling her about being followed. She then heard, “Whatchoo doin’ ‘roun here?” and believed the voice to be “old.” Listen to Fogen’s voice, though; he sounds OLD. He sounds old and frail unless he’s reading a prepared statement.

        Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:28 pm

      I believe Osterman was behind the wheel of the vehicle that tore out of that complex like a bat out of HELL. he IMO was there because, he got there very quick for him to have been at his home when ShelLie’s called him. Osterman’s actions on Dr. Phil’s show was that of a man with something to hide. he seemed to be very nervous IMO and, this is why I say he is hiding something and, he was sticking to Fogen like stink on S**T trying to make sure that he didn’t say something out of the scope of the script.

      Reply
      • Erica says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:20 am

        I think he was with forgen as well and he threw the keys to the dog sign and ran away. But then why woould he write a book. If I was involved in any way, I would not write a book. Telling a different version that was forrgen told cops.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 14, 2013 at 1:24 pm

          @Erica

          I think he was with forgen as well and he threw the keys to the dog sign and ran away.

          There are witnesses who saw GZ walk towards the T after he got off Trayvon’s back. Jon took photos; one of GZ’s tactical flashlight, one of Trayvon’s dead body, and one of the back of GZ’s head, . Notice that the lighting in the photo of GZ’s head is much better than the lighting of the other two photos.

          Jon used the key chain flashlight to give him more light in taking the photo of GZ’s head. Smith arrived and Jon dropped the key chain flashlight, no doubt to prevent Smith from thinking it was a weapon. Smith then asked “Who shot him?” Smith would have no reason to ask one man (GZ) that question had GZ been standing alone.

          Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:26 am

        Unfortunately there isn’t any clear evidence that Oysterman was involved, hence justice won’t be touching him on this evil crime.

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 16, 2013 at 12:43 pm

          “Unfortunately there isn’t any clear evidence that Oysterman was involved, hence justice won’t be touching him on this evil crime.”

          Do not make any bets that cost more than a pizza on the last 10 words of your comment.

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 16, 2013 at 12:47 pm

            Race….

            And what do you think the odds are that fogen will throw his accomplices under the bus once he knows he’s going down?

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 4:45 pm

            The probability is about……oh……..95% someone else takes a dive.

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 16, 2013 at 4:59 pm

            Yeah….I tend to agree……..I can just see fogen on the stand and start with the “We were” and “Then they told me to”

            Again making himself the victim. This time of a conspiracy.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:26 pm

            Knowing that the phone records are a major factor, I’m thinking Osterman was there. I think he goaded FogenPhoole into being the tough guy. I think SheLie “nags” him into trying to prove something. I think Osterman was out to get one over on the Sanford police as revenge for being fired and used a weak willed and easily manipulated FogenPhoole and it all backfired.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 7:37 am

            As a life long pathological liar GZ can only play this to bust! After the verdict and before sentencing, he may realize that he’s lost all his leverage and needs to create some new leverage before the lights go out completely forever. If not, then it’s possible that after he’s had a few weeks of real prison life, a few months down the road, he’ll probably start thinking of talking. If I understand correctly Florida Prisons aren’t exactly award winners, but it will take some time for him to realize that this is the rest of his life if he doesn’t do something fast.

            Trouble is, if he has anything on any of the big players, like Chief Lee or Wolfinger or SPD members, there’s a very big risk of him being tagged as a “snitch” to place his life in jeopardy. It’s very unhealthy to be known as a snitch in prison, so the big boys can use that threat to keep the evidence against them (if any) hidden. If GZ figures this out, he’ll realize he has to move fast once the verdict is in.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 6:07 pm

            Without question, he’ll have to make a move before the trial. After that the State won’t care what he has to say. The slimmest of chances during the trial but if the trial is going aces for the state he can talk all he wants, they won’t care. Lee & Wolfinger will have problems even if FogenPhoole says nothing…..Trust Me !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 7:25 am

            Right you are, investigations are ongoing and while MOM is able to continue creating false hope, everyone’s keeping their mouths shut tight. Right now the spotlight does not seem to be on them and the charges are narrowly drawn. But that could change in a heart beat.

            Oh, Racer or anyone else? Has anyone got or seen a picture of Ransberg? We saw a mug shot of Burgess, but I haven’t seen anything on Ransberg. In fact we don’t even have a first name for him, but I thought I saw an address go whizzing by in the past, I’ll have to look again. I think he’s in Colonial Village somewhere behind GZ.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 6:03 pm

            I read the article you had the link for that had Ransberg in it. I find it odd he, at the ripe old age of 20, is a homeowner. I’m going to look into that one form a higher angle.

            Let me say this about betting on others being charged……where’s SheLie ?? Taaffe’s been kind of quiet too….

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 9:25 pm

            They could be very worried if Ransberg was at the 711, that could cause the SP to go hunting for that phone the police took on February 7th 2012, or demand that they turn over the data they extracted from it. It was, after all, the SPD that claimed that phone was being used to move stolen merchandise. Wouldn’t it be funny if GZ’s number or email address turned up on it?

            Something smells rotten in Sanford.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 18, 2013 at 12:22 am

            “Funny how…..” as in A hahahaha or funny like, I knew it, isn’t that funny !! I’m tellin ya…..phone records, phone records, phone records.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 6:11 pm

            As I said I think I found a first name for Ransberg. In a Tampa Bay Times article, the reporter says he identified himself as Thomas Ransberg. The reporter says that he’s a 20 year old black man with dreadlocks and a home owner in RATL. In fact, in the article he points to a door and tells the reporter “I tell all the kids if they ever have trouble they can knock on my door right there (points) and I’ll be there to help. Too bad the reporter doesn’t give any locations.

      • Erica says:
        February 16, 2013 at 11:48 am

        @Xena
        Didn’t think of that, but the keychain in my view is not there as a result of any altercation. In his reenactment, he stated the altercation stated the altercation started nowhere close to where the keychain was found. The keychain is a mystery.

        Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 14, 2013 at 11:17 am

      My thoughts

      – Trayvon’s screams are so filled with hopelessness and the crime scene is so open, that I immediately assumed he was being attacked or restrained by more than one person, the very first time I heard the tape.

      -George thinks his accomplices will take care of him and make sure he does not go to jail, h should remember the same maxim that applied to Trayvon, “DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES”, and watch his back in the company of his accomplices.

      -I will say it again, I am of the firm conviction that something much more sinister took place that night then we are being told or are willing to conceive.

      I can only hope that the DA is interested in the truth and not just appeasing the crowd.

      Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:59 pm

        Yes, I do believe you are correct. Remember, if GZ has support with him, they don’t actually have to do anything other than stand by and watch. Just by doing nothing they show whose side they’re on and that makes Trayvon realize just how useless resistance is. If “white tee shirt” for example is standing by in the cut through, just out of sight of the eye witnesses but where Trayvon can see him, that’s a terrible threat to TM. After GZ fires the shot, stands up and backs away, white tee shirt rushes forward to check the body and is briefly seen, he quickly withdraws. The witness who saw it thinks she’s seeing things. We can’t tell because we don’t know how long the intervals are for this witness. We don’t think there should be anyone else around or involved. Of course, we don’t have any good reason for thinking that way, except for the suggestion that it was that way.

        All eyes are drawn to GZ and the body, while there could have been any number of people with GZ out there, who any witnesses would simply think are neighbors who they don’t know. Before the police arrive in any great numbers, these people can simply walk away and never be seen or heard from again. Even when the police begin canvassing, they can still say they just got there and have no idea what happened. Drawn by the sirens and flashing lights, who’s to disbelieve them?

        Reply
        • Tzar says:
          February 14, 2013 at 9:09 pm

          Remember, if GZ has support with him, they don’t actually have to do anything other than stand by and watch. Just by doing nothing they show whose side they’re on and that makes Trayvon realize just how useless resistance is.

          you are thinking on all cylinders
          but that cry…that cry tells me that they made their affiliations crystal clear

          Reply
          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 15, 2013 at 5:38 pm

            Yes, so with witnesses being so unclear about time, we can’t really know how much time elapsed from the gunshot until “white tee shirt” is seen, let alone where he went. The only person so far that wears white tee shirts habitually is Ranesburg. And there was a witness who said that someone, after the gunshot, came running north. That would leave one more black guy unaccounted for, since Ranesburg travels with two guys now that Burgess is in jail.

            I’m pretty sure that’s him and his boys who met Trayvon at 711. I’ve looked at the video and it seems to be telling me that Trayvon was waiting outside the store for them to arrive. TM leaves the store and waits outside for perhaps 30 seconds or so, before a car pulls up and these guys come into the store. So then, why doesn’t TM start walking back east immediately when he leaves the store? Isn’t that what he would do if he wasn’t meeting someone?

            Of course, if you were meeting someone then of course you would wait for them. The fact that he didn’t have to wait long means very little. He should have been on his way east and they should have had to call him back, if they weren’t planning to meet. So, that means they’re the ones who lured TM out of his house, for this rainy night trip to the store.

          • Tzar says:
            February 15, 2013 at 5:47 pm

            who are these two guys? the fellows at 7/11?

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 16, 2013 at 4:20 pm

            In the burglary reports we read about this Emmanuel Burgess. We discover that he stole a laptop from Dreamcis on 2/6/12 and he’s seen hanging around with three other guys on 2/7/12. The police respond and search the guys. In the backpack of a guy named Ransburg they find Dreamcis laptop, Burgess claims it as his, says he brought it last night, then runs away. He’s caught in the next community over where Ransburg lives, and he’s taken in and violated on his parole. So, now Ransburg has only two black crew members left. That’s three right? Now look at the 711 video.
            There’s one white guy and two blacks, unless I miss my guess that’s Ransburg and what’s left of his crew.

            Note how the hide their faces. Note how Ransburg can’t resist unfurling his braids and showing them on the cctv. Why? Does he have some clue that this video is going to be widely viewed?

            Burgess lives in that last row of buildings just south of the east gate. His place has a excellent view of the entire dog walk corridor. Exactly what you’d want as a neighborhood thief. This groups specialty seems to be entering through open doors or windows or breaking glass to open an enter. They mainly steal electronics, like computers smart phones, ipad, iphones and jewelry.

            The stolen computer is worth 3,000 so what’s it doing in Ransberg’s backpack? Is he the gang leader? Does he know GZ? Is GZ the fence using eBay? Is GZ po’d because he needed that laptop and they lost it? Could they have lied to him, and told him it was stolen from them by another gang? When GZ got made and threatened to put them all in jail, they then told him “hey there’s the dude whose gang stole the computer from us”.

            All speculation of course, I don’t even know if that is Ransberg at the 711, I’m just guessing that it might be. It certainly seems that Trayvon was not finished his business there, so that’s probably why he leaves the store and doesn’t immediately start walking home. Sure enough a car pulls up and seconds later these three enter the store with their faces covered. http://tinyurl.com/che8csw

            I think there’s one of those “funny coins” on the floor. It’s a coin that’s either been crazy glued to the floor, or nailed to a wood counter, that tempts people to try to pick it up. Hours of amusement for clerks working the night shift at convenience stores nation wide. Tells me Trayvon doesn’t go to these kinds of stores very often, if at all. He walks back, to where the sight of that coin has been bugging him, he attempts to pick it up, then tries to act nonchalant when he fails. I see this all the time, they’re pretty common.

            He walks to the front and out the door and just stands there for about 25 to 30 seconds before the car pulls in.

          • Tzar says:
            February 16, 2013 at 4:43 pm

            oh the burglary kids
            got it
            will read rest and comment later

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 3:42 pm

            Good I’ll be waiting to read your remarks, they’re always useful. I may have found a first name for Ransberg, it could be Thomas according to a Tampa Bay Times article that was pulled. The article which I found and posted on my evidence pile, says he’s black with dreadlocks and a 20 year old RATL homeowner. Obviously someone lied and TBT reporter just lapped it up. This Ransberg sounds to me like a white, black wannabe. Did you know that there are white people who want to be black? Yep, I’ve even run into a few over the years.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:29 am

        Agree, he had accomplices.

        Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:27 am

        Lonnie,

        You did not answer my earlier question. If Ransberg knew that something was going to happen concerning Trayvon, why would that cause him to want to show off for the video camera, as you claimed?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 17, 2013 at 6:05 pm

          You did not answer my earlier question. If Ransberg knew that something was going to happen concerning Trayvon, why would that cause him to want to show off for the video camera, as you claimed?

          Oh, wow, I thought you were joking.

          Okay, let’s try this… If he knew something was going to happen, involving Trayvon, then he would think that the store videos would be pulled. If the store video would be pulled, then which parts of the videos would the police and/or the media be interested in?

          You guessed it, the parts closest to Trayvon’s attendance at the store.
          So, if he has a clue, then wouldn’t it be a great chance to get on tv by simply performing in these few minutes? After all, no one knows who you are and they can’t connect you with Trayvon, because he’s not on camera with you.

          If that’s what he was thinking, he was exactly right eh? millions of people across the nation and around the world are going to see him shaking out his braids on youtube and in the media.

          Of course, he’s got to know that whatever it is, is going to be more serious than just a little incident, eh? Police don’t pull videos for minor stuff like that, so then, why are they hiding their faces? Why is Trayvon waiting out side for them to come out, before he starts back to home? In fact, why do they only pull up, after Trayvon comes out of the store? And why does Trayvon wait 30 seconds for them to pull up?

          If Trayvon wasn’t there to meet with them, when he left the store with his purchases, he should have immediately started back east, having nothing more to do in the area! The fact that he didn’t do that, and he waited until these guys came out of the store before he left, says they had business together. What it was, we do not know, but it’s safe to say that they are the reason that Trayvon left home for the store on a rainy Sunday night without telling anyone, not even DD what he was up to.

          All Trayvon told DD was that he was going to the store to get Chad some skittles. Chad, on the other hand said that Trayvon told him, that he was going to the store and asked him if he wanted anything, he told Trayvon he wanted skittles. So, Trayvon had some reason that he wanted to go to the store for and it was a reason he didn’t want to share with anyone.

          If these three know GZ, it’s very possible that GZ told them he was planning to do something serious to Trayvon that night. It is possible that these boys blamed or instigated GZ to go after Trayvon, instead of directing his anger at them. It would also mean that they are the trackers.

          Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm

      Yes and don’t forget Taaffe said “he should have answered the questions!”

      Reply
      • kllypyn says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:15 pm

        Trayvon could answer any questions because he had no idea what he was talking about.n he lived 250 miles away in Miami.he knew nothing about any crimes in that neighborhood. Do you think he was killed because he couldn’t answer the questions

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 14, 2013 at 10:34 pm

          @kllypyn.

          Do you think he was killed because he couldn’t answer the questions

          GZ killed Trayvon because Trayvon’s screams for help brought the attention of residents. GZ pulled his gun, but that didn’t stop Trayvon from crying out. As GZ told Hannity, he was terrorized with the thought that the cops would arrive and find him standing there with his gun in his hand. When GZ says he was out of time, that is what he is referring to.

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 15, 2013 at 6:06 pm

          Trayvon had no answers to any questions, nor did anyone have any right to ask him any questions. Only Taaffe and GZ think they had a right to ask questions and get answers.

          If that’s the case, then what kind of answers were they seeking? What kind of questions did they have to ask? They must have thought those answers were pretty darned well important to kill for not getting them, eh? Maybe Taaffe should be sent to Camp X-Ray for questioning? lol

          Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 14, 2013 at 6:53 pm

      Here’s hoping that all of this is going to come out during the trial and, also that who ever else is involved in this will be arrested on the spot. Osterman IMO definitely was involved in this murder in some way.

      Reply
  110. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    FactsFirst says:

    February 13, 2013 at 9:38 am

    off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm

    Your talking about a satalite phone that could or should have that capabilaty.
    Those are the type of phone explores take into the jungle amaon ect.
    Places that dont have normal cell coverage.
    Also they work of satttaltes in space so you can talk to some one any where in the world.
    I think they stert at a pricre range of ten thousand dollars.
    They also have the gps an the back up gps system you mention even if main battery dies
    Its a saftey feature as it akso sends a singnal locatinig you exact cordinates.
    Round the world yaughtsmen like them as there more relliable than radios for talking to loved ones.
    Doubt foggen had one but could come in usefull if he wants to flee
    An live in the Amaon with a tribe deep in the jungle
    With a bit of luck for us an them
    They turn out to be caniballs.

    Reply
  111. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    Yup will get posted on youtube
    Probably has his own website where you can veiw it a day later or at least the network he broadcasts with .
    Just google it something shoud direct you
    unless someone knows the site.

    Reply
  112. elcymoo says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    Professor, you may have already addressed this question earlier, but if so, I missed it.

    What are the rules governing evidence discovery in general, and in FL in particular, if you know? More specifically, does the prosecution have to turn over the information from Trayvon’s phone on the day of his death if it’s not exculpatory for the defendant, or can it be kept for use in rebuttal?

    Reply
    • groans says:
      February 14, 2013 at 12:37 am

      Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure:

      http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/tfblegalres.nsf/d64b801203bc919485256709006a561c/e1a89a0dc5248d1785256b2f006cccee

      Scroll down under “Florida Rules of Procedure” and select “Criminal.” In the PDF, look for the bookmark, “Discovery.”

      Reply
      • elcymoo says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:45 am

        Thanks, groans. It looks to me like the info would be discoverable under the rules regarding experts and tests.

        It also opened up a new question in my mind about whether one reason for the defendant’s decision to involve himself in discovery was for the purpose of being present during depositions and intimidating witnesses who are being deposed – DeeDee, for example.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:23 pm

        @elcymoo: Fortunately there’s a rule addressing defendants’ presence at depositions, probably because of the concern you raise.

        Rule 3.220 (h)(7) Defendant’s Physical Presence.
        A defendant shall not be physically present at a deposition except on stipulation of the parties or as provided by this rule. The court may order the physical presence of the defendant on a showing of good cause. The court may consider (A) the need for the physical presence of the defendant to obtain effective discovery, (B) the intimidating effect of the defendant’s presence on the witness, if any, (C) any cost or inconvenience which may result, and (D) any alternative electronic or audio/visual means available.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm

        I should have said “probably PARTLY because of the concern you raise.” I’d guess other reasons might be related to the fact that many of the defendants might be in jail – either held without bond, or unable to bond out.

        Reply
    • Frederick Leatherman says:
      February 14, 2013 at 11:15 am

      There are three categories of evidence that the prosecution must disclose to the defense.

      First, the prosecution must disclose all exculpatory evidence within its custody, possession or control. Judges and lawyers refer to this category of evidence as Brady material because the SCOTUS established this rule in Brady v. Maryland.

      Second, it also must provide the defense with a list of the witnesses that it intends to call during its case in chief at the trial and a list of the exhibits that it intends to introduce into evidence. The term “witnesses” applies to police and experts as well as civilians. The prosecution also has to turn over all reports and statements prepared by its witnesses.

      Third, it must turn over all statements obtained from the defendant as well as all search warrants to search his property, affidavits for those search warrants and inventories of items seized.

      The prosecution is not required to identify the witnesses that it intends to call during its rebuttal case until after the defense rests. This rule recognizes that the prosecution must wait and see what evidence the defense introduces before it can decide whether to put on a rebuttal case.

      Reply
      • PYorck says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:57 am

        How does the distinction between rebuttal and other evidence work in a case like this where the open questions are less about the killing as such and more about self defense? How does evidence that addresses the criteria for self defense fit into this?

        Does the prosecution set out to prove that is was “2nd degree murder and not self defense” from the start or do they initially present evidence only for second degree murder and deal with a possible (read: inevitable) claim of self defense in rebuttal?

        Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm

        For the sake of completeness this would probably be a good place to note the “work product” exclusions as well.

        Reply
  113. Rachael says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    Is there a way to watch the Bill Maher interview if I don’t have cable? Will it be on the internet somewhere?

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 13, 2013 at 9:33 pm

      Rachel, don’t know for sure, but it may be available may be able to get it on through the HBO page for realtime, starting here to pick your country.

      http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill-maher/index.html

      They show some video links, don’t know when or how they work., maybe posted after the show.

      I’m not sure about Maher with junior, I like Maher but there’s nothing comic about Trayvon’s killing, so thinking they may talk about guns. Maher may not be hard ball enough to be anything but softer on the killing issue and junior’s ‘big’ brother’s actions and attitudes and lies.

      I may wait for a review 😉 (may have to, no cable either!)

      Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 13, 2013 at 10:55 pm

      I’ve got satellite but, I don’t have any of the premium channels but they do offer them half price for 6 months. I had thought about getting HBO just for a couple of days in order to see this circus of this media whore but, I can’t stand the sight of him or his lying murdering brother so I will pass on that. this POS needs to stop getting in front of a TV camera lying for his brother.

      Fogen killed a child in cold blood and, he has been lying about the events of that night every since. him sitting in court crying last Tuesday, is just the beginning of his crying for himself. he will shed many many tears as he sits in his prison cell thinking about how he got to this point in his life. his tears are not for the young life that he took, his tears are only for himself.

      Reply
      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:17 am

        I’m interested in this interview for on reason (yes, ideally my preference would be for Jr to shut up) and that is because I believe corporate journalists have been and are so lame that the comedians are more cabable and likely to do the journalists’ work. Jr might as well be confronted with a real interview instead of being treated with kid gloves.

        Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 14, 2013 at 2:21 am

      Many of Maher’s clips seem to surface online.

      Reply
  114. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    racerodrig
    trouble behind trouble ahead to the tune of .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig3GcDBjQN4

    Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 13, 2013 at 9:33 pm

      i started to do that one but went with another song. Looks like I have requests for Casey Jones. MMP sent me a great line to use so I guess I’ll get on this.

      I love this song so……..

      Reply
  115. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    they rec’d food stamps.

    Lonnie Starr says:

    February 13, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.

    Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.

    Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.

    GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?

    @Lonestar
    Ah your missing the point It was the cement dogwal an continual BANGING BANGIN BANGING So that he felt his head would explode.
    And he didnt know he was hitting him bare fisted because it felt like he had bricks in his hands.
    An this is the dillema he was faced with .
    Death by dogwalk imminent diperdom .
    Some might argue a fate worse than death.
    At least shellie would given size of his but.
    Would have to use large bath towells diepers wouldnt cover it.

    Anyway this was foggens mind set when he was forced to pull the trigger.

    Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:58 am

      Yep, but my point is, GZ can believe whatever he wants about any particular attack. If you threw a plate of spaghetti at him, he could say he thought that was a deadly attack.

      But the law, however, says that what is a reasonable deadly attack, must be from the view of the judge or the jurors, not from the view of the subject.

      So, for GZ pleas to work, the judge or the jury must see and believe that Trayvon’s attack was a deadly attack and that it’s reasonable to think so.

      GZ seems to think that the only way the law has to weigh his claims is to take his assumptions as true.

      He does not want to face the fact that his offers are placed in the hands of jurors who may not believe that he was in any danger of being killed or greatly harmed. Maybe if Trayvon had picked up the sidewalk and hit him with it, then yes, he’d have been right. Or, if Trayvon had picked him up bodily and slammed him down on the sidewalk, then maybe. But just to have him fall and then be pushed down against the sidewalk, I don’t see how anyone can believe that would kill an adult male rabble rouser/bar bouncer who was angry and weighed 204 pounds. So, the claimed attack doesn’t even seem deadly, before we discover TM had no dna on his hands.

      Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 12:18 pm

      All the TESTAMENTARY data has been corrupted by the fact that when Fogen was first making up his stories (and neighbors were being “interviewed” by police), there were pre-arranged assumptions by pretty near all concerned that there was no real crime committed and that any old thing would pass muster to make this case go away. At the same time, however, all the NON-TESTAMENTARY data (physical evidence, voice recordings, more careful interviews and actual sworn depositions) remains not only uncorrupted but pretty much uncorruptible. That is why the defense is backed up against the wall, and on that wall, the writing already appears:

      Your kingdom has been weighed in the real balances
      AND * FOUND * LACKING.
      Your days are numbered.
      Your kingdom will be [divided between the Medes and the Persians?] turned over to the Department of Corrections of the Great State of Florida.

      NEXT…

      = = = = = = = = = = = =

      BTW, something I have been thinking about for a long time but never got around to typing out. There IS no such thing in Florida law as a “regular” or “traditional” self-defense hearing, unless I am very much mistaken. Self-defense is a defense to a conviction, but it is an affirmative defense that gets presented like all other defenses, at trial. The reason there began to be hearings BEFORE trials was that the newer, separate, SYG laws provided for separate hearings before trials, at which point, if a judge determined that there was a SYG defense, there would BE no trial. Traditional self-defense does not call for a separate hearing.

      So what IS this hearing that O’Mara allegedly wants? If there is no procedure set forth for it under FLorida law, how can he get it?

      I frankly don’t think it’s legally permissible. Otherwise EVERY violent crime will have to go through two stages even if the SYG law does not apply to them. In other courts in other states, if a certain law calls for a hearing (competency hearings, mental state hearings, evidentiary hearings, etc. etc. etc.), there is a provision for the way the court is to conduct that kind of hearing. Precedent. Only SYG gives that kind of hearing in Florida as far as I know.

      I’m just sitting here waiting for Fogen’s claim of acute mental illness to roll in so he can get the trial put off. Just sittin here…

      Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:21 pm

        Lonnie, if you threw a plate of spaghetti at Fogen he WOULD have a right to fear great bodily injury or imminent death. Spaghetti is a well-known symbol used by the Mano Nero and he would naturally realize that his life was being threatened and need all that security reinstated but there’s no money boo hoo and he would suffer superhero pasta-assault disorder and need to get that ankle bracelet off so he could go to Arizona (or somewhere) to recover…

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 12:45 pm

          Every event in FogenPhooles life has the same garbage. It wasn’t my fault, they did it first, I didn’t know they were cops, I was attacked, she’s mean to me, that mean old dog scared me, yada, yada, yada.

          I’m sure I can find a clever use for macaroni however if he’s got a case with spaghetti….just sayin’

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 14, 2013 at 12:50 pm

            It’s an old mafia tactic…..strangulation by thrown spaghetti….similar to Asian Throwing Stars

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm

            Damn !! Just how far down his throat do you have to throw it. Why not just one big Meaty Beaty Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball ??

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm

            fogen would see the meatball as a donation of food from one of his supporters……..and swallow it…..

            “I’ll take “Will fogen end up as marinara sauce” for $5,000 Alex”

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:57 pm

            Soooooooo if I send him a Meaty Beaty Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball, do I get a signed thank you card, or does it depend on if he chokes on it. Hey, these are real questions……

          • cielo62 says:
            February 16, 2013 at 1:55 pm

            I sent him my two cents… Literally! Now I’ll wait and see if I get a thank you card, too.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 6:51 pm

            I know of some who have PayPal ‘d him a nickle because it cost him like $5.00 to process it. I won’t give him the sweat off my XXXX just on principal but if that really is the case I say we drive him to bankruptcy by donating our 0.02 cents on a daily basis.

            I’m pretty sure it’s in the budget. Then again I can send him something from my business. Be a real cool write off…….

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:06 pm

            Paypal has a basic charge of 30 cents on the receivers end for each transaction…..and then 2.95% on the balance of the money………therefor if you send him 2 cents via paypal….and it’s accepted and not returned…..then fogen’s account is debited 28 cents for the transaction.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 7:34 pm

            A hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha !!!!!!!

            -.28 cents……Hey FogenPhoole…..lets talk about who has the last laugh A hahahahahahahahahahaha

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 16, 2013 at 8:16 pm

            I have 3 personalized thank you cards in my collection so far….so on top of the 28 cents add the price of the personalized card & postage…….

            See how much fun stamp collecting & postal history can be now Race? 🙂

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 8:52 pm

            I’m sold !! At this rate he’ll be broke in no time and the best part is that Pay Pal is on autopilot. By the time he realizes what is going on, he’ll be eligible for parole !! Xena sent you an invitation to her blog. Jump on in man, we have a good time there as well. In fact we have an entire music library there of rewrites !! Carry on wayward son…Iron Man and one just for SheLie….

        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 6:11 pm

          So he suffers from SPAD??? How could I have missed it? Sure, in that case off with the bracelet and let him head for the hills. NOT!
          “Superhero Pasta-Assault Disorder”, yeah, right! 😆

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 9:19 pm

            A small locked room, me, FogenPhoole and one large frozen Meaty. Beaty, Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball……..you do the math.

        • cielo62 says:
          February 16, 2013 at 11:35 am

          My dearest Malisha- you are SO weird! 😉

          Sent from my iPod

          Reply
  116. cielo62 says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    >^..^< Dang! I miss ONE day and I'm 370 posts behind! (((Grrrr))))

    Reply
  117. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    bettykath says:

    February 12, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.

    I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.

    Witnes can say they saw Trayvon on top foggen on top or what apeared to the young boy with the absconding dog.
    As one person laying down shouting for help.
    E M T can say they cleaned up a couple of minor scrapes on foggens head,
    And that he decleined not once not twice but thrice to attend a hospital for further checks.
    Therfore had no visable concussion or hospital would be mandatory.
    An questiong by L E nixed.

    Wittnes can xlaim to have heard an seen many things.
    Screams running struggling.
    Remember there were at least three minutes unacounted for in foggens narrative.
    In wich time a fluid struggle took place pushing pulling grabing probably fallling down wrestling.
    An all this ocoured over about 170 seconds an also yards in distance an differt yards of peoples residences.
    So many witnesses say differnt events at differnt times.

    What the witness saw none can validate the defendants story.
    In fact they damage it.
    Besides to some extent what the witnes say and foggen is irrelevant.

    Its what the forensics say that will detrmine the outcome of the trial.
    Unlike human witnes forensics doest lie or make mistakes.
    And the forensics prove with certainty that the defendant is a liar ans guilty.

    Its impossable to repeatadly punch someone in the face .
    Break there nose draw blood an snot
    Smother that person with both your hands over his bloooody snotty possably broken nose
    An also bash there head non stop.
    All that alone is immpossable without at least puttting someone in a coma.
    But its also impossable to do all that ##Touch all those bodily fuids
    An not have one single peice of his dna on your person
    Thats

    NOT POSSABLE.

    Wich proves that foggen is lieing about every thing.

    Oh but what possable reason could foggen have to lie about stalking an murdering an innocen child?

    Reply
  118. pat deadder says:
    February 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Need to ask a stupid question the guy who gz asks to call his wife says gz impatienly said just tell my wife I shot someone.the caller must have said more than that or how would Shelly know where he was.I really believe Shellie was in the truck and knows more than anyone will ever know.

    Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 13, 2013 at 8:23 pm

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Shellie was in the truck but so far we haven’t seen any hard evidence to support that hypothesis. Unlike her husband she has had enough sense to keep her mouth shut about the case in public.

      Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

        LOL agree with 100% of everything you said.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm

        Were Osterman and Shellie there by the time police arrived?

        If so, that is hard evidence they were close by

        Reply
      • Tee says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:32 pm

        I don’t think she was in the truck with Fogen, Trayvon would have mentioned it. I do believe she knew that he was going out to patrol the neighborhood that night.

        Reply
      • seallison says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:30 pm

        Tinted windows on a dark, rainy night, perhaps he could not identify wh was in the truck or not.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:04 am

        I find it strange that they were there that fast

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:19 am

        He did start to mention something about his wife in the re-enactment and then back-peddled and changed his statement. The way he said that made me feel that she may have been in the truck.

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:05 pm

        Me too Two Sides

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 12:11 pm

          Count me in. If you listen to the analysis of his NEN call, there is someone with him. You can hear faint whispering and when he stutters as if he’s drunk, it’s because just before that you hear paper rustle and “….tell ’em this..” clearly, but faint.

          He stuttered because his focus was directed at something else. How many times are we on the phone or doing something and the wife / husband / child disturbs you and ……..I’m on the computer dear, be done in a minute….then your brain goes huhh and you forget……..what were we talking about…oh focus. He lost focus on what he was saying.

          You also hear 2 doors close if you listen closely. There are videos all over about this. He had someone with him I am convinced of that.

          Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:35 pm

        Shellie – perhaps by the Kalubb house?

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:35 pm

        On one hand, Fogen might have left his schtruck to impress Shellie – on the other hand, she discouraged him on another of his NEN calls to stay in the house and not follow the “suspect”…

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:13 pm

      Apparently the Nutter’s seem to know ShelLIE was pretty close.
      According to the Nutter’s timeline, created by Diwataman,
      Shellie and Osterman arrived at 7:31, so they weren’t very far.

      Shellie & Osterman show up
      2/26/2012 7:31:00pm

      Timeline of Events Feb 26, 2012

      Reply
  119. Xena says:
    February 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    Investigation Discovery on racial profiling, including what happened to Trayvon Martin, is on now. 7 p.m. CST.

    Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 14, 2013 at 1:11 am

      O/T-
      Investigation: Where’s Mark Osterman these days?
      I haven’t seen or heard anything about him lately.
      (Not that I really want to, but I’m very curious)
      So involved in the beginning, now gone without a trace, poof!
      Interesting, imo.

      Reply
  120. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    Let me get this straight
    M O M Say we pushed for time no way can we make June 10 for trial.
    Now want to schedule a meeting .hearing confrence.
    About a possable fortnights chinwag re the alleged upcomeing .

    Not realy Stang your Ground hearing.
    More a trad self defence hearing
    Because you cant stand your ground if your laying on the ground.
    Thats not possable due to gravity.
    Like blood flowing upwards its impossable .
    So even though its a trad S Y G hearing we are calling it a traditinal self defence.

    Or as my client whom had decided to micro manage this case an now the depo prosess.
    Just as he seems to micro wave anything that doesnt move in the oven.

    He has now involved himself in security PR Strategy ..logistics depo prosess an wants to personaly oustion witness.

    Anyway my client refers to this entire event as.
    Justifiable Homicide an says he even told the detectives that an everything man.

    He claims as he was in fear for his life from multiple sourses an threats.
    Verbal
    Smothering
    HeadBASHING
    MULTIPLE PUNCHES
    An Trayvons remark after he feels he saw the gun an was possabley undeniably going to get thee gun an shoot him.
    Your gonna die tonight mo fo.
    Is undeniable that here towith an without malice afore thought
    Drop all thease charges an declare a holiday in my honour.

    Call It

    Zimmerman Equals Real Oneness…………DAY

    Zero Day.

    Reply
  121. annahkonda says:
    February 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    Just a friendly reminder to everyone, Investigation Discovery will feature Trayvon Martin murder case tonight @8PM, or at least on my cable channel in Salisbury, Maryland.

    Reply
  122. ladystclaire says:
    February 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    Is there any way that Judge Nelson can put a gag order on this IDIOT? he is doing his best to taint a possible jury pool. there is one thing about these two brothers, they do not listen at all. dispatch told Fogen we don’t need you to do that and, their father told JoonYah to stay out of his brother’s case. they don’t listen worth a damn do they?

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:13 pm

      I think I finally figured it out. Jr. Hates GZ and he knows that every time he opens his fool mouth, he makes GZ look even worse. I think he’s trying to put his brother away for life.

      Reply
      • Looolooo says:
        February 15, 2013 at 4:50 pm

        BINGO! Exactly what I’ve been saying for a few weeks now. RJZ wants nothing more than for GZ to be convicted! He’s exceedingly jealous of GZ’s noteriety and “success” (by Zimm standards……anyway), and is PO’d that GZ has trumped him in Zimm family hierarchy. If GZ is convicted, HE gets to step up HIS media tour of SELF PROMOTION. If GZ is not convicted, he’s back to just being a short, stumpy, make-up wearing, unemployed, sciopath with nothing more to do than stare at himself in the mirror. Well lets just say, I’ll have to get used to seeing his wretched mug on TV, because Fogen must be convicted!

        Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:15 pm

      If Judge Nelson could put a gag order on Junior she could do the same to you and me and everyone else who posts here on similar grounds.

      Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:26 pm

      Come to think of it, I believe that blanket gag orders are routine for criminal trials in some other countries. Colin? Aussie?

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:16 am

        I know that the UK puts some limitations on what the public and media can publicly post about cases in progress as well as in other situations in which privacy laws or something like that are invoked. Maybe someone can elaborate who knows more than I do.

        Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:02 am

      Messing with the jury pool is a messy and dangerous fools errand. Imagine yourself being fooled by the news and as a non-racist juror, coming to court with a preconceived notion that you’re going to hear exculpatory evidence that confirms what you heard on the news and on the teevee shows.

      Only to have yourself disabused of those notions in court. The defense doesn’t put on the “good evidence” you heard on tee vee, and the prosecution demolishes whatever the defense does put on. Then you begin to realize that, the reason you’re not hearing the same stuff you heard on tv, is because none of that stuff ever happened. On top of it all, you’re surprised to learn that GZ is a proven and demonstrated baldfaced liar too boot.

      Finally he takes the stand and insults your intelligence with talk of thugs skipping through the neighborhood, while helplessly he waits and watches while his own head gets bashed in. Do you pick up on the fact that the life threatening attack ceases 40 plus feet away from where the fatal shot is fired? My guess is, you go into the jury room too disgusted to deliberate at all. The Foreman of the jury, usually begins by calling for a vote right away. That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.

      GZ stands as the verdict is read and he wets his pants and faints.
      He’s toast! Judge Nelson cancels the bail and sets a date for sentencing and the lights go off. O’Mara and Company scoops up their papers and swiftly withdraws from the courtroom with the obligatory “we will appeal”.

      GZ is suddenly surrounded by officers and shuttled towards a back doorway. He will be held in county lock up until sentencing, then moved to the state penitentiary.

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:07 pm

        “That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.”

        I agree other than I think the jury will play around for a day or two telling jokes, laughing at SheLie, and Taaffe and the tall tales, get a few more free meals then send the Verdict Notice. Can’t look too anxious now can we……that would hurt the book sales 3 of the jurors are going to write.

        I wonder what the over / under is for the number of jurors trying to hide their laughter when they file in for the verdict. I say at least 2 give it away with the facial expressions.

        Reply
      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 15, 2013 at 6:00 am

        I can’t wait.

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:27 pm

        Lonnie Starr- what a wonderful story! And with a happy ending, too! Can’t wait for it to become reality!

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
  123. MichelleO says:
    February 13, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    Wow. I’m surprised you folks aren’t talking about the Christopher Dorner situation.

    Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:19 pm

      Dorner has been mentioned briefly a few times and would make a great topic for an in-depth discussion. So far, facts are scarce.

      Reply
    • mountainmanpat says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:40 pm

      Maybe the Prof. can start a new blog for that………I do find it interesting…”charred remains”….so forensically there is no way of telling if it was a self inflicted gunshot wound…….. I Used to live in So. Cal…..Different county…..I would avoid going thru LA as much as I could….not just that I don’t like cities……LAPD and their sheriffs dept are complete a$$holes from my own personal experience with them….

      I DO NOT JUSTIFY DORNERS ACTIONS

      I do believe there is more to his claims than LAPD want to admit.

      Back in the 70’s I was busted with a kilo of weed….before they changed the search and seizure laws…..never made it to arraignment as my lawyer had shown illegal search and seizure PRIOR to arraignment…..A deputy kicked the sh*t out of me in the hallway when I was released less than 18 hours after my arrest….

      LAPD ARE GOONS

      Reply
      • looneydoone says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm

        mmp,
        Yes they are, along with Riverside, San Bernardino Sheriff’s and San Diego PD

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:13 am

        The law enforcement agencies who cornered Dorner wanted it to seem as if he started the fire in the cabin. However, they did. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/13/audio-catches-cops-shouting-burn-this-motherfcker-during-dorner-siege/

        Reply
      • looneydoone says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:53 pm

        mmp,
        I’ll go you one better.
        San Diego PD arrested me, taking a cellophane wrapped candle the size of a kilo of marijuana, and covered with alfalfa , along with a jar of silica sand w/a “things go better with coke” label as “evidence” of my crime(s) in the early 1970’s. I made bail, and when Monday rolled around, my atty learned there was no arraignment and/or record of my having been taken into custody !

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:32 pm

        Yes, goons and worse.

        I think Dorner’s claims against the LAPD are probably valid.

        I also think killing those people was inexcusable. But then, after all, it has not been excused, has it?

        Reply
      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 16, 2013 at 1:35 am

        Dorner’s manifesto has. paragraph on Zimmerman. It’s on p. 22/23 of the copy I read. I would quote it but it was pdf.

        Reply
      • lady2soothe says:
        February 16, 2013 at 10:15 pm

        @ MMP
        LA is my home but I spent 20 years in Colorado Springs, talk about bad police, LA can’t touch them.

        btw have you been following Josh Carrier? I believe he’s going to be sentenced next week. Do you know?

        Reply
        • mountainmanpat says:
          February 16, 2013 at 10:48 pm

          Yeah Thursday it give a ticket day for the CSPD…….first place I lived in Co was Manitou…..the cops there were cool.

          Now?……lets just say I live somewhere in the mountains north of Lake George……..And happy as hell where I’m at 🙂

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 16, 2013 at 11:07 pm

            @MMPat. Please check your email for an invitation so you and Racer can exchange email addresses and chat.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 11:22 pm

            I told MMP about your invite. I told him we have a real good thing there and I thank you again.

            My son did 2 song rewrites tonight. See…..he and his friends have a real problem with a psycho like Fogen murdering the residents or guests in the community. They’re pretty involved in the topic so I hope there is no age DISCRIMINATION on that….

            I cut him loose and I think he did a pretty fair job. He had a problem with one of the lines on “Renegade” and I think you’ll identify it when you spit you beverage at the screen.

            Hint…..it concerns SheLie and a vegetable !!!

          • Xena says:
            February 16, 2013 at 11:46 pm

            @racerrodig. No age discrimination on Blackbutterfly7. There are some people who comment using 4 letter words however. I’m vegetating on cold medication while watching a Planet of the Apes movie marathon. LOL!!!

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 1:24 am

            Cool OK Take Care

          • lady2soothe says:
            February 17, 2013 at 12:48 am

            I still have 2 grown children who live in the Springs. Both have been profiled on more than one occasion. My daughter’s husband is an E-7 at the Academy. They own their home at the No. end of town in a good area, drive nice vehicles with AF stickers and yet still get hassled… I read the Gazette most every day because I know so many people and so many of my kids friends from K-12 have ended up in the obits (I guess I’m a bit morbid in that respect). Sad. Needless to say I’ve followed Carriers trial (Dietra Farries and many others too). Good ‘ole Ted, wow, another church, surprised he has any followers but then again, so does fogen.

            C/S to me is evil, yet I still visit and sometimes feel torn, 20 years is a long time. Lots of bad memories but I’m somehow drawn to it. Worked as a cosmetologist at the Broadmoor for a good while, it was like going to Disneyland every day, couldn’t wait to get to work and sad to leave at the end of the day. Love Colorado history. Ahhh but I digress; LA is home and always has been (even through the 20 years).

            Anyway, I just wanted to touch base, wondering if you knew anything about Carrier’s sentencing date, he’s such a scumbag, LIFE w/o parole!

        • mountainmanpat says:
          February 16, 2013 at 10:53 pm

          Lady

          BTW….haven’t heard the latest on carrier the child molesting cop……Co Springs is also the home of ted haggarty….and he has a new church goin’ already……The “Springs” is the BIG CITY to me……..get most of what we need no farther than Woodland Park.

          Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 14, 2013 at 8:42 am

      It’s a distressingly conflicted situation, the LAPD is far from a bunch of angels, as we’ve seen over the years, and yet we can’t agree with Dorner either. It’s terribly difficult to attempt to render the finer points of the matter, seeing how easy it is to be misinterpreted, so everyone simply stands clear.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:30 pm

        Dorner should have hired a ghostwriter and written a book.

        Reply
        • Deborah Garner Moore says:
          February 14, 2013 at 8:32 pm

          @Two sides to a story:

          I don’t condone what this rogue cop did. I believe every word he said, but the way to get his message across was not to shoot innocent people. He knew he was not going to come out of this alive. The LAPD has been corrupt for years. Look at the fact that they had Stephanie Lazurus on the force since the 80’s and she was just arrested and convicted last year of murdering her ex man’s wife! She was a suspect way back when the young lady was murdered, but of course, they covered it up for one of their own. Her dad tried his best to keep this in in the news so that he could get justice for his daughter. I am glad he and his wife never gave up the fight.

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 15, 2013 at 4:13 pm

          Now that would have been a much better idea and he could send little packets of evidence to various newspapers, implicating and exposing various people. Over time it works like a Chinese drip torture, no one knows whose going to come under scrutiny next.
          After a while he’d have had them all scrambling for the hills, doing more dirt to cover their tracks and making matters even more complicated by committing even more and bigger offenses.
          Instead he does this and gives them cover! Poor plan, bad outcome.

          Reply
          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm

            Fond of Sun Tzu Lonnie? 🙂

            You’re comment as to how he could have done it are completely Sun Tzu’s teachings

            “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 16, 2013 at 3:19 pm

            In the “war” one has to think about sparing lives. Because no one is innocent, it’s just a matter of what we’re guilty of.
            Each time the overseer cracks his whip as some peon hefts another 50lb bushel basket of coffee to the mill, we coffee drinkers are guilty of that.

      • gblock says:
        February 16, 2013 at 4:51 am

        While I acknowledge the existence of corruption in the LAPD, I think that it is a serious mistake to give too much credence to Dorner’s point of view. From what I’ve read elsewhere, he in fact has a lot more in common with GZ than the things that LLMPapa included in his video a few days ago. For one thing, he seems to have had anger issues dating back many years, and to believe that it was appropriate to use violence/physical force in response to verbal insults. He wanted a law enforcement career, but was not emotionally suited for it. He seems to have had difficulty following orders, and he had a know-it-all attitude. The timing of his coming in on the kicking complaint makes it seem that it was retaliation and/or an attempt to avoid consequences for his training officer giving him an unfavorable report. He probably already knew that the father of the mentally ill man was pursuing a complaint on the matter. Yes, he had complained about corruption in the LAPD – but I have seen no evidence that he actually did anything positive about exposing or publicly exposing corruption. The discussion in his manifesto seems to be self-promotion.

        This is not to say that Dorner is like GZ in all respects. For one thing, he was smarter and more articulate. For another, his family is not playing a sleazy “blame the victim” game. They have condemned his actions and expressed their regrets.

        Reply
  124. colin black says:
    February 13, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Great comments.

    Man U v Real Madrid got to go.

    Reply
  125. Rachael says:
    February 13, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-crump-20130213,0,5979916.story

    In a separate development, attorneys in the case have set a hastily-scheduled hearing for 4 p.m. tomorrow to discuss whether Zimmerman’s “stand your ground” hearing, at which he’s expected to ask for immunity, should be delayed.

    Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 13, 2013 at 2:54 pm

      to ask if it should be delayed? what new development should delay it from previously scheduled date?

      Reply
    • diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:02 pm

      Rachel. I read the motion and did not read anything about delaying the hearing. The reporter was incorrect.

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

        No read again

        The reporter said “He’s expected to ask for a delay” LOL

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:05 pm

        Jun, diary’s point is that the reporter made a mistake. The motion doesn’t say anything about a delay. It’s basically a planning session with a decision at the end so they all know when to show up ready to do the self-defense hearing.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:25 pm

        The reporter simply stated he is expected to ask for a delay, he never stated that he was going to ask for a delay

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:57 pm

        @diary and bettykath – Suggested lessons learned:

        > Sometimes there’s more to a defense motion or other filing than what is stated in it.

        > Sometimes reporters know more about the situation because they have spoken with the defense and thereby gained more insight.

        > Sometimes intuition is a valuable analytical tool – especially when it’s based on historical experience or observations. That is, “reading between the lines” is an important skill to hone in the rough-and-tumble world of litigation … if you don’t like being duped or surprised. (And I’ve seen some darned good intuition on this blog.)

        Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:48 pm

      Okay, so all that talk about having the hearing, was a load of crap?

      LMAO

      I thought it was ready to go down, but now they want a delay LOL

      Reply
    • Tee says:
      February 13, 2013 at 10:27 pm

      Was this not adressed already, did not the judge rule on this just a few days ago.

      Reply
  126. ay2z says:
    February 13, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    Junior’s latest career development, is he up for this one?

    http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2013/02/george-zimmerman-brother-set-for-real-time-with-bill-maher.html

    A reminder of Maher’s contributions to this story early on-

    Reply
    • PYorck says:
      February 13, 2013 at 2:28 pm

      That should be fun.

      Reply
    • mountainmanpat says:
      February 13, 2013 at 2:30 pm

      Ya know I believe that Junior is doing nothing more than pimping off his brother for $$$$$$$ with the interviews and such…….And it would benefit Junior if fogen (is) convicted because it will only be Junior than will be able to continue the talk show circuit,$$$$$$$$$$$$……….. as opposed to fogen being acquitted…because then it would be fogen on the talk show circuit $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

      Naw I really believe Junior could give a rats ass about his brother

      Reply
      • truthseeker66 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 3:59 pm

        Jr reminds me of joey buterfuko(misspelled). From the Amy Fisher debacle…remember?

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 13, 2013 at 5:34 pm

        Good point there MMP!

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:16 pm

        From what I heard these 2 hated each other so badly Jr actually did give a rat’s ass to his brother. He didn’t care about his brother, just gave his a rat’s ass…..and actually, both deserve one.

        Can’t wait to Jr on Bill Maher !! the same one who called FogenPhoole a “…big fat fucking liar…”

        I’ll take “Famous TV Interview Ambushes” for $5,000.00 Alex.

        Reply
      • Looolooo says:
        February 15, 2013 at 4:17 pm

        @mmp….. i’ve been saying this for some time now. rzj couldn’t care less about his lil bro. he wants nothing more than for gz to be convicted. he ONLY cares about self promotion. It’s so obvious that he’s extremely jealous of his brother’s noteriety and that he has trumped him in the Zimm family hierarchy. i think rzj is even more disturbed than gz. gz is evil alright, but rzj somehow gives off an even worse satanic vibe. go figure.
        i love bill maher, i went on 1 date with him in my native L.A., in the early 90’s. he was a complete gentleman, scary smart, pleasant and amusing. but…..let’s just say i was advertinsing falsely (young and dumb back then), and our signals got crossed, and one date was enough for both of us. mr. maher likes his women…..to be…… experienced.

        I just hope that bill grills him like he deserves to be grilled. so far NO other interviewer has. NO, not even arrogant piers morgan.

        Reply
        • mountainmanpat says:
          February 15, 2013 at 4:55 pm

          VIBES?…..yeah….without a doubt….we can’t just say he’s a liar….they all are……something special about junior

          Vibes?

          fogen?….psychotic moron dumbass

          junior?…..psychotic snake manipulator

          Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm

      This is gonna be good

      Bill Maher is not gonna softball and hold back

      He’s gonna confront Junior if he lies at all to Bill Maher

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 13, 2013 at 5:18 pm

        @Jun. Yep. Junior has a temper. He will either blow it or cry like a baby.

        Reply
      • Mike says:
        February 13, 2013 at 6:57 pm

        Can’t wait for this, I predict Bill Maher and Donna Braizle will make Jr cry.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 8:44 am

          Either that or dragged, kicking and screaming from the stage in one of those “I love me” jackets, by the men in white coats. 😀

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:01 pm

            I love me jackets. Haven’t heard that one in a long time !!

            But on the other hand Jr isn’t smart enough to realize he’s been “Owned” At least Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver realized he was done and you could tell he wanted to be anywhere but there.

      • racerrodig says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        You got that right !! Bill is likely to say “..why do you feel compelled to lie” Jr will say at least once “…were you there..? when backed into a corner. Maher will own him then.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm

        I can see it now

        Bill Maher “Who the fuck do you think you are kidding with that nonsense? It is pretty obvious you brother never got assaulted or attacked. He’s a big fat fucking liar. He targeted, and stalked this kid, and when he caught the kid, your brother confronted, threatened, and attacked the kid. One’s a 17 year old teenage boy with only Skittles and Ice Tea. Your brother was stalking the kid and calling him a fucking coon, while chasing the kid with a gun.”

        Junior “Were you there? Why do you not stick to the facts?”

        Bill Maher “Would you please cut his mic?”

        Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        February 14, 2013 at 8:33 am

        This is going to be a slaugherfest! RZ will be fried, dyed and laid to the side!

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 12:53 pm

          I can’t wait for that fruitcake to ask Bill if he was there. Ka-Boom!!

          Bill will roast him and Bill does not ever back down. Then at some
          point FogenPhoolesPhamilyPhreak will tell Bill to “…stick to the facts…” BammO !!

          Then Bill will ask why FogenPhoole referred to him as a worthless piece of shit to SheLie in one of those jail house calls. Bingo!!

          I can’t wait to hear his reason why they hadn’t talked for over 10 years……what, lost his number ??

          Reply
          • jm says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:05 pm

            “Then Bill will ask why FogenPhoole referred to him as a worthless piece of shit to SheLie in one of those jail house calls. Bingo!!”

            Was GZ stupid enough to mention RZ Jr by name on a recorded prison call?

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:09 pm

            Does “…my brother…” fit the meaning of “…by name…”

            I vote “Yes” That’s how stupid FogenPhoole is.

          • jm says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm

            OMG I hope Bill Maher doesn’t back down on questioning RZJ. He doesn’t seem like the type to ask softball questions and agree to disagree like Piers Morgan.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:58 pm

            Maher never backs down….hell I’m hoping he has Lewis Black as a guest host !!!

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 14, 2013 at 7:03 pm

            Bill does his homework and there’s just so much there for him to use, this thing is “gotcha” rich! Big 8″ thick, rich veins of Gotcha’s running all through the mine you can’t drop a shovel without hitting ore. LOL

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 10:44 pm

            Doesn’t he realize he’s tap dancing in the minefield ?? !! This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ??

            I’ll take “Utter Top 5 Morons” for $5,000.00 Alex.

          • jm says:
            February 14, 2013 at 11:01 pm

            “This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ?? ”

            This only proves to me the insanity of the Zimmerman KKKlan who think they can “outwit” people who are much smarter than they are with double-talk. I can’t imagine RZJ would want to expose himself to someone like Bill Maher other than RZJ has delusions of grandeur like his brother and other family members.

            .

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 11:09 pm

            When Jr started talking last year I stated he’s about as bright as a 2 watt bulb. My apologies to all. I’ll amend that to 2 milliwatts.

    • racerrodig says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:10 pm

      Not many morons volunteer to be the guest of honor at an execution. Does FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhamily have any idea what Mahar has said about this……..Yeessh !!

      Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:16 pm

        Like I said below, I think it is his secret intent to put his brother away for life, otherwise he would just STFU.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 8:22 pm

          I saw that post and he may hate him, after all they were estranged for 10 years so who knows. If he is trying to seal his fate, he’s doing a damn good job.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:23 pm

        Junior must have heard that Fogenhats thinks he’s a useless piece of crap

        It is recorded on a jailhouse phone call

        Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:45 pm

      Another Maher video:
      Bill Maher: Racism, gun laws killed Trayvon
      and the invention of the SYG laws and rolling over on gun control.

      Martinhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy0-i8GhD7E

      Reply
  127. kimmi says:
    February 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Found this on Jr’s (The Z family’s) Twitter…
    Must be the Z Family Motto:
    Hahahaha!

    Reply
  128. ay2z says:
    February 13, 2013 at 11:22 am

    Xena, thanks for the explaination about yesterday’s docs coming out on a Twitter account before they were posted at the gzlegal website. Judge Nelson doesn’t read news, so maybe she also doesn’t follow Twitter and like me, was thinking things got posted first on the defense website. It’s shocking really. There should be some rules of procedure for court documents publication, because if the docs were supplied to an intern, or junior or anyone else before they became ‘court document’, what happens if the doc is never filed and never will be filed as shared?

    O’Mara’s people give documents to a non-client to publish to the jury pool BEFORE they are submitted to the court?

    There is no reason to opt for Twitter broadcasting, other than to reach the jury pool as quickly as possible.

    Reply
  129. mountainmanpat says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Follow….a day late 😐

    Reply
  130. FactsFirst says:
    February 13, 2013 at 9:38 am

    off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm

    Reply
  131. Jun says:
    February 13, 2013 at 8:11 am

    Another thing about the 911 scream tape evidence is you do not hear any type of striking noises or blows being thrown. When someone says something, while being shaken, whatever sound they emit from their voice during the shaking, has a slight vibration to it and we never heard any of that. Lastly, we heard what sounds like a kid squealing in pain, and screaming in fear, and telling the defendant to get off him

    Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 13, 2013 at 1:04 pm

      Same vocal staccato phenomenon occurs when someone is running

      Reply
      • Tzar says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:08 pm

        point being, given the openness of the crime scene and the imperative nature of the fight or flight response, whoever is making those blood curdling UNINTERRUPTED screams, is being restrained, since both fight and flight leads to vocal “staccato”.

        Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 2:13 pm

        Is that so?
        I am convinced that you would stop screaming if your brain is focussed on a specific task, such as the one GZ was supposedly performing seconds before the shot. You know, getting wrist control, retrieving his weapon, aiming and shooting.

        Do you have information about that?

        Reply
        • Tzar says:
          February 13, 2013 at 2:50 pm

          not sure you understand my point nor do I understand yours. consider re-reading what I wrote and in the mean can you elaborate your point?
          thanks

          Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 3:25 pm

        You are describing the effect certain actions or emotions have on how we vocalise, if I am understanding you correctly.

        I am quite sure that the terrified screams we can hear in the 911 calls, are inconsistent with the tasks GZ said he was performing. Not just that it is not logical, but most people are incapable of doing both at the same time. Like we don’t breath and swallow at the same time.

        I was hoping you had more information about that phenomenon.

        Reply
        • Tzar says:
          February 13, 2013 at 3:43 pm

          I am of the firm belief that those screams are Trayvon’s because
          -people with loaded and available guns don’t scream like that
          I am of the firm belief that Trayvon was being restrained because
          -with that kind of open space he should be running or fighting
          I am of the firm belief that he is not fighting because his screams are uninterrupted
          I am of the firm belief that he is not running because his screams shown no Doppler or staccato effect. The phenomenon I point to can be demonstrated by anyone just try to run and scream.

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 4:21 pm

            @Tzar. When I first heard the NEN call, then heard the 911 call that captured the screams, there was no doubt in my mind that it was Trayvon screaming. A person who calls a stranger “assholes” before getting out of a vehicle to follow that person, then calls them “funking punks/coons” while running in chase, demonstrates intent to confront. He believes he is able to control the person he chases.

            At no time did GZ say he cried “stop” or “get off,” or “you win, I give up.” At no time did GZ say that he told Trayvon he did not want to fight. What GZ did say is that he cried for help and when seeing someone, asked that they help restrain Trayvon. Thus, he tells what he planned all along.

            The photo shown to Tracy to identify Trayvon says it all — a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming out of his mouth. That is the photo of a person screaming, in fear, and in pain.

          • Tzar says:
            February 13, 2013 at 4:27 pm

            You said it all. Sometimes we can forget what a horrible thing this man did, I know this because every time I review the KNOWN details of that night, I find myself shocked, horrified and disgusted all over again as if I had not heard them a hundred times before.

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 4:51 pm

            @Tzar

            …I know this because every time I review the KNOWN details of that night, I find myself shocked, …

            It is shocking to think that GZ could take Trayvon’s life and blatantly lie with such confidence that he believes it was God’s plan. It is God’s plan that GZ spend the rest of his life in prison.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 7:56 pm

            And I believe God’s Plan is a good plan. The worst part is during his alleged reenactment when he says he drew his firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..he shrugs his shoulders with a “….what are ya gonna do…” look. As if this is an everyday thing.

            I hit the bed frame with my big toe, it hurts but what are ya gonna do?

            I spilled that soda all over the counter…..hey, what are ya gonna do?

            I just tagged that stopped car, it was just an accident…hey, what are ya gonna do ??

            I was late for work again today, what are ya gonna do ??

            I pulled my firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..hey, what are ya gonna do ??

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:08 pm

            @racerrodig. Well, since he had already left his home and was being harbored by Osterman, GZ was prepared to avoid arrest. His shoulder shrug no doubt included, “This is my story. If you don’t believe me, and since I’ve left home, what are you gonna about it?”

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:08 pm

            To the tune of “Runaround Sue” Sing along everyone

            1 – 2 – 3 –

            Here’s our story, it’s sad but true
            ’bout FogenPhoole that we all knew
            he told those lies and ran around
            Now he’s goin’ down, down, down

            Chorus

            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
            Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt Ahhhhhhh !

            Ah, we should have known from the very start
            That this story will leave us with broken hearts
            Now listen people what I’m tellin’ you
            You keep away from that FogenPhoole too

            Slim used to leave us with a smile on our face
            His touch was there and with a warm embrace
            So if you all wanna stay real safe
            You keep away from that FogenPhoole too

            Chorus

            Fogen likes to travel around
            He’ll lie and then let ya down
            Now people let me put you wise
            Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies

            Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
            Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
            Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
            They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too

            Chorus

            Fogen likes to travel around
            He’ll lie and then let ya down
            Now people let me put you wise
            Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies

            Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
            Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
            Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
            They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too

            Chorus

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm

            @racerrodig. That is so COOL!!!!

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:31 pm

            i was just doing the lyrics and I have to thank MMP for prompting me to post the song somehow of which I had no clue as to how to do it. Turns out to so easy, I feel the fool.

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm

            As I’ve said before I’m an artiest…….yet reading this…..if it was “gods” plan to have fogen murder Trayvon so that “god” could wage his wrath against fogen, at the cost of Trayvon’s life?……..just another “god’ I have no interest in believing….

            Spiritual? Yeah…..some Blue Sage burning now 🙂

            JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm

            @MMPat.

            if it was “gods” plan to have fogen murder Trayvon so that “god” could wage his wrath against fogen, at the cost of Trayvon’s life?

            No. When GZ said it was God’s plan, he accused God for his murdering action and made God a party in the case. What one sows, the same shall they reap. It’s the same as if GZ planted a tree that began immediately bearing fruit. Just look at the following:
            1. He has health issues because he has gained 100 pounds in less than a year.

            2. He is being sued by the security firm.

            3. He has gone through $300,000 and has nothing to show for it.

            4. His wife is still awaiting trial for perjury.

            5. His brother is making a fool of himself, rubbing elbows with White Supremacists.

            6. He has not gotten anything from the court that he wants; is still on the GPS ankle bracelet, cannot leave Seminole County, cannot open a bank account, denied a continuance, denied release of personal information for State witnesses.

            7. He cannot afford the costs of defense, yet cannot dissolve the trust fund because he will not be able to eat.

            No one wrongfully blames God and walks away without reaping.

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm

            Thank you Xena…………Maybe moreso like “god” saying ” you want to blame me for ur f’ups?…….I’m gonna smite the hell out of you”……

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm

            @MMPat.

            …gonna smite the hell out of you”……

            Actually, the laws are written in the universe. God intervenes when one seeks forgiveness and is truly sorry for the wrong they commit; harm they cause others, etc. because he is a loving and forgiving God. He gives us choices. What GZ demonstrated is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that calls good evil, evil good, and believes that God does both.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:25 pm

            ” He gives us choices.” Yes he does. I know you heard ? me say this on HP that I pray for the opportunities. I also praise him and his son and do my Christian music thing and far more often that not…
            opportunities arise.

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm

            @racerrodig. I’ve not posted on HP — but yes, I understand what you’re saying.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:41 pm

            For some reason I thought you were there under a different name. There are several there that have the same avatar….maybe I’m just confused !!

          • Xena says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:51 pm

            @racerrodig. I only adopted the gravatar since August, but have always used Xena with the exception of Crime Watchers. Because there was already a Xena, it wouldn’t allow me to use that so I’m Xena-Blackbutterfly there.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 10:23 pm

            Oooookay !!

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm

            FogenPhoole stated it was Gods plan that Fogen survive. He made no mention that it was FogenPhuckingPhooles Free Will decision to commit murder.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:21 pm

            I’m sorry. That he “…survive that savage attack by Black Dynamite Slim…” that night. I wouldn’t want any Zidiots telling me I missed some of the facts.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:12 pm

            I fully understand and can we agree to disagree on that one.

            None of know what the future hold and why. I can say that I pray very often and many times they are answered. On that note I’ll shut up on that topic.

      • amsterdam1234 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 3:56 pm

        Tzar I agree with you that everything you mention makes it very illogical that GZ was the person screaming. But I think there is also a physical reason why GZ can’t be the person we hear screaming.
        What I am looking for is probably closer to your description of running and screaming at the same time. But I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Are you just describing a sound effect or are most people incapable to perform those two tasks at the same time?

        I think the brain will focus you to perform one task(running, getting your gun) and stop you from performing another task at the same time(screaming).

        Reply
        • Tzar says:
          February 13, 2013 at 4:07 pm

          it’s a little bit of both but mostly that the jarring action of running will affect vocalization.

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 7:39 pm

            It’s a fact that when you are forced to do something that requires effort or deep thought, it is virtually impossible to do anything else.
            Try running as fast as you can and hold a conversation at the same time……

            Remember some people can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. FogenPhoole would fit that one.

            Yeah…he was beatin’ the crap outta me so I just laid there and took it. I yelled, I cried, I called out…..nobody came to help.

            The truth is that in that real situation “Survival Instincts” take over and you’s be surprised what the brain tells your body to do. Like, fight back….deflect the blows…..flop like a fish out of water and shake that Black Dynamite Slim off…….No, I’m Fogen……..oh wait
            THE GUN !!

        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 7:25 am

          I’m in agreement with Tzar, vigorous physical activity will cause the sound of the voice to pick up artifacts. Try recording your own voice while at rest, then try it again while doing push ups.

          Now, as far as doing two things at once, it depends on the task and the environment/circumstances. Thus, if you’re discussing talking while writing a letter, or cooking, no problem. But, if you’re thinking about screaming while engaged in combat, probably not if you’re the attacker. The person attacked may scream at some point, either because they’re calling for help or because they in terror because they are losing a life and death struggle.

          The person with the superior conditions does not yell or scream because they’re devoting their efforts at maintaining and/or enjoying their superiority. If GZ was calling help, it was because he was mimicking Trayvon. He could do that because he was under no threat. Thus his voice lacks the power induced by fear and/or terror.

          That makes sense because GZ has the gun. Of course, if someone reaches for his firearm, he loses the luxury of talking at all, because he has to focus on keeping his weapon. The problem is, defending yourself or your weapon from an adversary, involves the use of both hands. So there is no way that he would be able to grab and hold Trayvon by the garments, unless Trayvon is offering no resistance at all.

          I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant, thus the only defense he knows is to flee if it is possible. If not he just pulls away, twists turns and/or falls down. All in an effort to break the grip his attacker has on him.

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 12:28 pm

            “I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant…”

            I agree 100%. The way Trayvon was raised I doubt he’d be inclined to hit anyone, especially an adult. Trayvon may have had 20 – 30 seconds of WTF is this about before FogenPhoole got serious and drew his gun. At that point any intelligent person knows don’t rile this guy up any more than he is.

            I can imagine during that 20 – 30 second initial span he’s now in adaptation mode….then he see’s things getting worse and I’d bet he’s thinking “….if I whoop on this guy……dad is gonna be pissed…” Remember the adult version of anything is believed before any kids version. Now Fogen draws his weapon and it’s to late.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 14, 2013 at 6:30 pm

            I sincerely doubt he even thought about laying a hand on GZ, put it this way, would you even think about laying a hand on Mike Tyson?
            No one in their right mind would even think of trying to match Tyson with fisticuffs. Unless you are a trained prize fighter you wouldn’t even think about it because you know you don’t stand a chance.

            Only in comic books do they show people wrestling with lions, tigers and lizards. Because in real life you’d only be killed really fast. Those cute little cats weigh 700 lbs and can break a person in half with a swat of a paw. Part of human intelligence is knowing when not to go up against a superior adversary. To a child, even small adults are superior. Big adults like GZ are very imposing authoritative figures. GZ wants you to believe that Trayvon is a savage and dangerous thug because he’s black and all blacks are battle ready and dangerous savages at birth.

            For trying to peddle that bit of intelligence insulting insanity alone, GZ should be punched in the mouth every five minutes!

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 9:27 pm

            I can’t fathom how stupid he must be, not to mention his family, thinking he can pawn that crap on us and we’ll just believe him.

            “For trying to peddle that bit of intelligence insulting insanity alone, GZ should be punched in the mouth every five minutes!”

            Can I have the first shift ??

      • grey winter sky says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:15 pm

        Jun & Tzar….I absolutely agree with both of you. That was something that I had not even thought of but makes perfect sense to me.

        Reply
  132. bonniespapermache says:
    February 13, 2013 at 7:45 am

    This is a link to a book about the Trayvon Martin/Zimmerman case. Anyone read it or plan to?

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:04 am

      What is the title and who is the author?

      Reply
    • bettykath says:
      February 13, 2013 at 3:52 pm

      I read the intro on Amazon and then bought a copy for my kindle. Have to go to the laundromat and can’t just sit there watching my undies go round and round.

      Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 15, 2013 at 1:14 pm

      No, not going to buy ths any more than I’m buying or reading Mark Osterman’s book.

      Profiting by this ex-police officer,what are his motives, besides the obvious publicity and profit?

      Why go the extra step to publish before trial?

      Reply
      • Dave says:
        February 16, 2013 at 6:50 am

        He’s angling for a lucrative, high profile gig as an expert witness at the upcoming trial. “The Man Who Wrote the Book” on the Trayvon Martin shooting forensic evidence–Woweee! Top that, Bernie! (Nevermind that his timeline analysis is derivative and the methodology in his shooting reconstruction hopelessly flawed.)

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          February 16, 2013 at 3:40 pm

          @Dave,

          Bernie DLR will skewer this mental midget. Timeline screw-ups are the easiest way to deflate an “egg spurt witness.”

          It will be “Throw another shrimp on the barbie, Bernie,” if this guy shows up working for M’OM and GZ.

          Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        February 17, 2013 at 7:24 pm

        ay2z~ Greed. Just like everybody else in this case. I hope his book sells as many as Osterman’s did. That is to say, very few.

        ________________________________

        Reply
  133. SpecialladyT says:
    February 13, 2013 at 7:13 am

    Motion from West to depose Crump. Your thoughts Professor?

    Click to access motion_deposition_crump.pdf

    Reply
    • PYorck says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:39 am

      Prediction:

      O’Mara will stray from the scope of the deposition until Crump refuses to answer a question. That will show that Crump has something to hide. *ominous music*

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 13, 2013 at 8:13 am

      From my understanding Blackwell would be there if there was one, there has been no decision yet in regards to the affidavit, the affidavit seemingly covers everything that is within scope of Crump’s duty to the court, and I dont see what else they want, unless they want Crump to regurgitate what is in the affidavit

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm

        PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 3:04 pm

        Actually, Xena, the motion has references to the just completed hearing and the affidavit. It also has references to case law that says such a deposition should be allowed.

        Perhaps Crump made public statements that suggest he knows more that he can say without violating attorney/client privilege.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 13, 2013 at 3:17 pm

          @bettykath

          Actually, Xena, the motion has references to the just completed hearing and the affidavit. It also has references to case law that says such a deposition should be allowed.

          The Notice of Taking Deposition that I read was to hold the depo of Attorney Crump on Feb. 5th. That was the date of the hearing in which Attorney Blackwell filed the affidavit in response, resulting in Judge Nelson postponing the deposition until after she read the affidavit.

          Regardless of what West files at this juncture in effort to take deposition of Attorney Crump, Judge Nelson has already ruled — she is going to read the affidavit first and make a ruling on whether the deposition should or should not be conducted.

          Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:25 pm

        This is the motion:

        Click to access Motion%20Regarding%20Deposition%20of%20Benjamin%20Crump%20Esq.pdf

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 13, 2013 at 8:56 pm

          @bettykath. That motion wants Judge Nelson to enter her decision regarding the affidavit, and allow deposition beyond the scope of what the court has previously ruled. It is another effort to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling that Attorney Crump is a court witness and his deposition is limited to his interview of Witness 8. I cannot see Judge Nelson amending her ruling to allow depo beyond the scope of her ruling.

          Reply
      • Sara NileQueen says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm

        bettykath, IMO these references would apply to “regular witnesses.But Mr.Crump is a COURT witness for a specific matter so I’m guessing the defense references might not apply.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:58 pm

        Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now. The current deposition is not the one for the Feb 5 deposition. It is a new motion taking into account the affidavit and cites case law that supports the request for the deposition. The judge postpone the deposition until after she reviewed the affidavit. I don’t believe she has ruled since reviewing the affidavit. This motion is basically additional argument for why the judge should rule that the deposition be allowed regardless of the sufficiency of the affidavit for the witness 8 interview conducted by Crump.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm

          @bettykath.

          Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now.

          Care to support your accusation?

          By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.

          The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.

          West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.

          Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:43 am

        Xena says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm

        @bettykath.

        Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now.

        Care to support your accusation?
        ——–
        The thread was introduced by speciallady and Jun speaking about the new motion dated 2/13 (with a link to it) and you responded “Xena says:
        February 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm

        PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.”

        After I pointed out the new motion more specifically about the new motion, that’s the one you referred to.
        ===========

        By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.

        The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.
        ——————–
        I have not been referring to the 2/5 motion at all. I have consistently been referring to the 2/13 motion. In this instance I used the wrong word, please forgive me.
        =================

        West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.
        ———————–
        The question about the deposition was reopened when the Crump affidavit was submitted and the judge postponed the deposition pending the request by Crump that he not be deposed at all.

        You’re ignoring the fact that the new motion includes case law intended to justify the request for the deposition. It’s intended to influence the judge’s decision. The case law cited includes

        * FL Supreme Court decision on the right of defense to depose any unlisted witness who may have information relevant to the charge, without leave of the court.

        * many citations that an attorney who has relevant information is not exempt from deposition.

        The defense is asserting that the affidavit and public statements show that Crump has such information and that the judge shouldn’t issue an order prohibiting the deposition. If she does, it might be an appeal-able decision.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm

          @bettykath

          I have not been referring to the 2/5 motion at all. I have consistently been referring to the 2/13 motion. In this instance I used the wrong word, please forgive me.
          =================

          When the subject came up, there were no recent docs filed with the court. I was relying on the court’s website and the circuit clerk’s docket. Evidently, someone in O’Mara’s office is releasing the docs via Twitter before they are filed with the court. I prefer to wait to see a file-stamped copy.

          You’re ignoring the fact that the new motion includes case law intended to justify the request for the deposition.

          You’re ignoring the fact that Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” Citing case law that does not apply to a “court witness” is nothing more than wasting ink and paper, IMO.

          * FL Supreme Court decision on the right of defense to depose any unlisted witness who may have information relevant to the charge, without leave of the court.

          Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” That is what the person in the black robe ruled. Remember at the last hearing when West attempted to tell the Judge the rule, that Judge Nelson stood on her ruling that she would read the affidavit first.

          The defense is asserting that the affidavit and public statements show that Crump has such information and that the judge shouldn’t issue an order prohibiting the deposition. If she does, it might be an appeal-able decision.

          West approached the court regarding Crump’s interview of Witness 8. He said nothing about deposing Crump on other matters. Then, West issued a subpoena for depo that Blackwell says is over broad. That clearly demonstrates an intent by the defense to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling. The most recent motion verifies that the defense wants to depose Crump beyond the scope of the court’s order. The motion is not specific about the information it thinks Crump may have.

          Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 13, 2013 at 9:12 am

      Very soon it will become apparent that Mr. West is using that legal instrument of deposition to taunt and humiliate Mr. Crump and continue the witch-hunt started by the Conservativedoghouse.

      Judges don’t appreciate that kind of tactics.

      Reply
  134. tony reay says:
    February 13, 2013 at 6:59 am

    yep – that’s it – thanks

    Reply
  135. tony reay says:
    February 13, 2013 at 4:22 am

    bit OT but does anyone have a link to the recent trial delay hearing that doesn’t have the added voice-over?
    and, I found this quite interesting..
    http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/19465

    Reply
  136. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 11:57 pm

    2 weeks? Can the defense then appeal that decision if it doesn’t go their way and will the appeal be heard quickly? or will that further postpone the trial until the appeal works its way through the system?

    Reply
    • Nefertari05 says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:16 am

      The way I interpret it is, the deadline the judge set has a built in cushion (45 days) for either side to get ready for trial and/or appeal. I remember last summer O’Mara missed the dealine to appeal for the suppression of witness #9’s molestation statement. IIRC- the Prof said it was 15 days (hopefully, he will correct me if I’m wrong). So, if the judge sends it to trial, O’Mara better get right down to the appellate court, so he can get on their docket. As for the actual procedural questions, I will defer to someone more informed. I would only be speculating.

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:20 am

      IMO

      It should not take 2 weeks for the SYG hearing

      Omara has turned in absolutely nothing and he cant just send in material for admissibility at the last minute

      I feel it will take a few days

      Unless court only allows a certain amount of time per court date to be used

      Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:01 am

        Jun- From your last sentence, would you think that, at this point, Judge Nelson may have dates on her docket already scheduled, in that time frame? I know it’s not a big county, but do you think she would still have several days open, app. 6-7 weeks out? I’m from a big city, and judges (clerks) here have to book appearances 3-4 months out, so I’m just wondering if O’Mara may have done himself and his client a disservice by waiting so long to schedule this.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:09 am

        I honestly dont know much about scheduling of court

        I learned most of the trial stuff on here, but we never learned about scheduling

        I feel Fogenhats is just a really difficult person to deal with, along with his pops and brother, as they are all unreasonable and batshit crazy and it may not be totally Omara’s fault

        I do not feel an educated lawyer would make a lot of the decisions he has made, however, he may have been forced because it was the decision of the defendant and he is not very reasonable, so any decision is bad around

        It may have been Fogenhats’ scheme since start to delay and stall

        Reply
      • aussie says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:10 am

        I vaguely recall another judge took over a lot of Nelson’s work, to free her up for this case. The immunity hearing was pencilled in for April way back, when the June trial time was also set.

        So Judge Nelson will have the time.

        O’Mara is saying it will take two weeks just to make it sound like he has DAYS and DAYS worth of evidence.

        Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:32 am

        A SYG hearing should be a day or two. If he’s going to drag a ton of witnesses and think that will win the day he’s goofy.

        For the record there is only one known person alive who knows what really happened.

        Reply
  137. Nefertari05 says:
    February 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    It appears O’Mara has finally gotten himself in gear. Link below to a motion to set status conference, signed today, regarding, among other things, setting an Immunity Hearing. Based on the motion, O’Mara states that the hearing must be completed by April 26th (Judge Nelson’s deadline) and should take app. two weeks. So, I’m guessing that’s a start date sometime in the first week in April. According to O’Mara’s availablility, we may have a firm date by the end of the week.

    Motion to set status conference:

    Click to access motion_to_set_status_conference.pdf

    Reply
    • Trained Observer says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:03 am

      If he actually reviews these motions (and that’s assuming he can read), hope Fogen absorbed the line about punishable by up to life in prison.

      Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:07 am

        I don’t believe he functions in the same world we do. I believe he’s off in his own alternate universe, where he can convince anyone that his actions were perfectly innocent and he was just a victim.

        Reply
    • Lynn says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:27 am

      MOM using phrases like “as soon as practicable” and “as soon as this week” might not sit well with the Judge after he blew off last month’s meeting and claimed he needed a continuance because he was not ready. Now it’s ASAP! Do you hear me, Judge Nelson!

      Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:26 am

        Ha! As annoyed as she already was, I can’t see this helping. Unless, of course, he’s trying to show her that he’s doing his utmost to adhere to the court’s decisions. I wouldn’t put it past him to have been a bit snarky in his wording though. He was seriously aggravated that he wasn’t granted the continuance.

        Reply
  138. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    LLMPapa has a new video up.

    Reply
    • Trained Observer says:
      February 12, 2013 at 11:54 pm

      Yes, LLMPapa … 12 experts who will know a trapped, petrified teenage boy when they hear one.

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:00 am

        IIRC, I think it is only six jurors for Fogen’s case.
        Someone correct me if I am wrong.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:33 am

        Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure Rule 3.270 states: “Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and 6 persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.”

        I thought it was weird because I thought it was always 12 jurors.
        So, unless the above is incorrect, Fogen will only have 6 jurors.

        So, I’m either going to get a passing grade or I’m flunking, Professor?

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:35 am

        Okay, is murder not capital?

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:47 am

        I believe death penalty (1st Degree Murder) is capital murder in Florida, IIRC. I think I learned two things here!

        Actually more, (Thank you, Professor), just don’t quiz me, because I am totally lost on the admissability of evidence, that I will flunk, guaranteed!

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:09 am

        Professors Article on Jury Selection:
        (Snipped)
        I was inspired by Xena to write this article today to warn the prosecution and all of my readers to take the defense seriously in the Travon Martin murder case

        She said,

        “In GZ’s case, O’Mara would need 6 jurors and the required number of alternates, ALL who believe in GZ’s innocence before they are sworn in as jurors. Nullification in GZ’s case would require all six jurors to find him innocent. That— ain’t — gonna— happen.”

        I hope you are right, Xena, but I am not certain that you are.

        I prefer to evaluate the case in terms of potential strategies and probable outcomes. I am compulsive by nature and always evaluated my cases in this fashion. There is no downside to being prepared.

        http://frederickleatherman.com/category/jury-selection/

        Ok, I must be somewhat compulsive as well. I knew I read only 6 jurors somewhere…Which is really strange to me, because until this case, I thought every jury was made up of 12 jurors.

        Very interesting though, and another thing I wonder is if these numbers vary from state to state, and for criminal/civil cases.
        I guess I will save that one for tomorrow. Goodnight everyone!

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:20 pm

        6 jurors in Florida.

        Reply
      • LLMPapa says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:47 pm

        I’m aware of Florida 3.270. There’s a reason I included the word “likely” in the closing part of the video:

        There will LIKELY be 12 experts already in the courtroom, quite certain of whose voice it’s NOT!

        It’s my understanding, and perhaps the Professor could weigh in on the validity, in Florida a defendant can file a Motion requesting a trial by a 12 member jury, instead of 6, in a non-capital criminal case.

        Since a hung jury only requires the dissenting vote of ONE, it would seem LIKELY this defense would prefer a 12 member jury of possible candidates versus 6. If this is option is, in fact available, I would expect to see a Motion in this regard filed prior to trial.

        Whether the jury is seated with 6, 12, or 112, the point of my short video comment is the same. With Zimmerman’s exemplar, I don’t believe they will have ANY problem recognizing whose screams those are NOT.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:53 pm

        This does not have to be left to guesswork. With an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice, a certified expert can run some voice recognition forensic tests and come up with something, even if it is not always 100% firm. The point is that at this point in time, with identification of voices NOT forming part of the evidence that is needed to prove murder, this would only come to play if and after Fogen claimed to have been the one screaming. THEN we would hear from experts.

        Daddy is not an expert. Even daddy-magistrate-veteran is not an expert. Daddy is just a lucky guy who managed to have a baby boy who grew up to…oh well, Daddy’s just some guy.

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:01 am

      Anyone have a link? Please and thank you!

      Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:04 am

        kimmi — six for civil in Florida, 12 for murder 2.

        Reply
      • ellejay says:
        February 13, 2013 at 3:26 am

        hey kimmi..

        –luke davis posted this over @ JQ when the same ? came up.

        http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0900-0999/0913/0913.html
        –florida statutes.

        913.10 Number of jurors.—Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and six persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.

        Reply
      • Trained Observer says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:21 am

        Kimmi — I stand corrected. I said 12 last night, remembering a murder trial where I was among 12 jurors and four alternates. I recalled it as a murder 2, where we convicted on manslaughter, Also wrong.

        On further review (thanks to news reports online covering a trial of more than two decades ago), we knocked it down from murder 1 (not murder 2) to manslaughter, which can be done in Florida.

        The kid on trial was charged with Murder 1. (In this gang-related case, the white teenager was being tried as an adult for packing a .357 magnum to school and hiding it in his locker, then going across street to a restaurant parking lot during lunch to shoot at three rival gang members, all black. The shooter and the shootee had once been friends prior to joining different gangs. The fatal bullet was in the forehead.)

        None of us on the jury wanted to see the kid fry, but with exception of one male juror, we all wanted to see him pay.

        We convicted him on manslaughter because the one balky juror refused to go for murder 2 and threatened to hang the jury. We settled on manslaughter.

        Although, seemingly with racial overtones — skinny white kid, shoots beefy black kid — the reality was comparatively color-blind: low-life shoots low-life. The gangs themselves (what a parade of low-life witnesses) were integrated. The jury was integrated. The judge and defense lawyer were white, the prosecutor was black,

        Withheld from the jury: The fact that this kid previously had shot his step-father in the arm, and had gotten only a light tap in juvenile court. Yet he told cops on tape that he’d never shot a gun before.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:17 am

        Thanks Ellejay!
        Always appreciate you being there with the links!

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:04 am

      Oops, hit wrong reply!
      Anyone have a link? Please and thank you!

      Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:37 am

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:54 am

        ugh… it sounds like a kid squealing in pain, not even anyone yelling for help

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:35 pm

        I will never understand in a million years why Fogen yelped like this for that recording. Whether or not he yelled or Travyon did, doesn’t matter – the real screams were totally different and why would he not try to reproduce these?

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:02 am

        Oh, I bet those calls really screwed up Fogen’s big plans.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:45 am

        The final scream was not even a call for help; it was naked desperation; Trayvon saw the gun and he saw Fogen’s face and he knew. And Fogen knows that that moment is preserved, like a “moment in Peking,” and that it will fight its way back into his life one day very soon, and it will never leave.

        Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:12 pm

      *runs to youtube* 🙂

      Reply
  139. Tee says:
    February 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    @ racerrodig, T mobile 30 day, sprint 30, Verizon 21, & AT&T 14 for saved voice mails. Txt messages Verizon 3-5 days, AT&T only keeps tracking data 5-7yrs & sent & received but not the actual text so does T mobile, Sprint 90. On text. We can store on our phones as long as you like but the carries don’t retain that information. Trust me when I say I researched this. I have a teen daughter & wanted to keep close tabs so I checked around for who retain there voice & text messages & for how long.

    Reply
    • Nefertari05 says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:04 am

      I suspect the companies made have made some changes since the whole Mayor Kilpatrick sext message scandal that brought him down. The state was able to get many thousands of text messages, from the city’s carrier (he was using official city cell phones). When the feds got in, it jumped to tens of thousands, to and from everyone who was involved. There were so many texts that the court had two magistrates whose sole responsibility was to go through the tens of thousands of texts and find the relevant texts and/or any that were indicative of illegal behavior. The former Mayor promptly filed suit against the carrier. I’m speculating the carriers figured if they don’t save them, they can’t be subpoenaed, and then sued.

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:33 pm

        That’s the tactic used by librarians after the PATRIOT act said that the feds could get at library records and the librarians couldn’t tell anyone that the feds were in. Now my library can only tell me what I last checked out. They will keep more information if I request it. I complimented them on their policy, I like it just fine.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:28 pm

        I love librarians!

        Reply
    • Lynn says:
      February 13, 2013 at 1:09 am

      @ Tee
      You mentioned having a teen and wanting to keep close tabs on them. That made me think about protective parents and how some use cell tracking programs. This is what I’m talking about.

      Should You Use Your Smart Phone to Track Your Kids?

      My child is grown so I’m not up on the latest technology.

      Do you think Trayvon’s parents used something like this? He seemed protected from the world. Slightly sheltered or “a momma’s boy” as witness 8 called him. I mean, he didn’t have a license at 17. You can get your learner’s permit at 15 in Florida.

      Maybe this is what helped with the GPS from Trayvon’s cell. It could be pings or apps or whatever that tracks you but, maybe they simply tracked their teen.

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 13, 2013 at 10:22 am

      We have 3 phones with Verizon. Text messages stay on the phone and not in their system and VM’s for I believe it is21 days and they tell you that when you get your VM’s The VM’s are in their system only and texts in the phone only.

      Reply
  140. Trained Observer says:
    February 12, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    Will be interesting to see how Judge “I’m tell you for the third time” Nelson rules. Crump’s 15-pager submitted by Blackwell was quite detailed. What more could MOM and West want? … Doubt that they know themselves.

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 12, 2013 at 11:02 pm

      @Trained Observer

      What more could MOM and West want? … Doubt that they know themselves.

      Because the treeslummers say that Attorney Crump is a liar, the Feign Team wants to catch attorney Crump in a lie. Rather than deposing him, they want to interrogate them. His affidavit avoids that because Judge Nelson is keeping Crump’s presence in the case as a “court witness” for the limited purpose of providing information about his interview of Witness 8.

      Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 12, 2013 at 11:58 pm

      Trained Observer-
      I didn’t see your response before my post…
      You said it much better than I did! lol

      Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 13, 2013 at 4:55 am

      I read the motion and two things stood out:

      1. Mr. West did not address whether or not the affidavit provided by Mr. Crump answers the relevant questions that need(ed) to answered and, depending on the answer to that question, why deposing Mr. Crump is (still) necessary/relevant.

      2. No law obliges any citizen who is not listed as a witness to submit to deposition (and the Professor may correct me if I am wrong on this one).

      3. Mr. West asserts that the defense may depose Mr. Crump without leave of Court. Judge Nelsen may as well tell Mr. West, ‘well you do not need leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump. I therefor revoke the Order making Mr. Crump a witness. Do as you will and depose whomever you want. But do not come back to this Court with a Motion to compel Mr. Crump to submit to deposition’ – if he refuses to appear for deposition.

      Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:35 am

        Nelson also made it clear that IF she allowed the deposition, West would not have free reign. As we can see in the motion, West is not specific as to what he would like to ask Crump and he is looking for free reign. IMO, Nelson will deny this motion, as she should.

        Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:06 am

        I agree with you. Ultimately Mr. West would have to answer questions as to why (a) he still wants to depose Mr. Crump and (b) Mr. Crump’s affidavit does not answer the questions for which the judge made him a witness.

        Questions regarding issues other than the tape of Crump’s interview with DeeDee fall outside the scope of the Order making Crump a witness. Mr. West would have to file a Motion to make Crump a witness with regard to those other issues. I think he may have to learn the hard way that he indeed does need Leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump.

        Reply
      • Tzar says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:43 am

        that was a very cogent analysis but the way I see it….

        OMG OMG WHAT DOES CRUMP HAVE TO HIDE??????!!!!
        SEE GEORGE IS BEING RAILROADED BY THE BLACK MAFIA AND THEIR LEADER, THAT SOCIALIST KENYAN OBAMA!!!
        OMG OMG!!!!

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:45 pm

        Definition: To railroad someone (v) — To charge them with murder just because they killed someone after expressing ill will. To fail to drop the charges even after learning that they sustained a few scrapes while killing. To still fail to drop the charges even after they learn it was all god’s plan.

        Reply
    • rnewton32 says:
      February 13, 2013 at 1:59 pm

      Sounds like another fishing expedition. They want to find anything they can to get witness 8 testimony thrown out because they know she completely contradicts what GZ is saying. She has no reason to lie. GZ does; And like Malisha pointed out, there was another witness that testified that she also heard GZ say “what are you doing around here?” GZ never mentioned any other words stated between he and Trayvon other than the “you gotta problem?” exchange. They have to get rid of her or else he is toast (with butter, jam and all the condiments!)

      Reply
  141. Dashamimi says:
    February 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm

    West still want to depose with Attorney Crump.

    Click to access motion_deposition_crump.pdf

    Reply
    • kimmi says:
      February 12, 2013 at 11:45 pm

      Somehow I think that one might tick off Judge Nelson a bit.
      If not, it should, imo, I mean, isn’t the defense really crossing the line on that one to keep pressing the issue, with his attorney/client privilege with the Martin family? Give it up already, Crump answered basically everything in his affidavit, it is just waste of time and another stall tactic by the defense.

      Reply
    • Lynn says:
      February 13, 2013 at 12:48 am

      On the motion regarding deposition of Crump, West claims it “was arranged over a period of several weeks”. I see the notice of deposition and it’s dated the 4th and filed the 6th. Alot of their notices are filed after the depostion has taken place (or in this case NOT taken place). Is this normal? I’m not legal smart by no means. This is why I leave the comments up to those more qualified.

      Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:38 am

      that’s ok, Crump has a good lawyer 🙂

      Reply
  142. Tee says:
    February 12, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    Can I say crazy again.Cell Phone companies are right now in battle with state police & congress about keeping text messages retained for two years and the police are fighting a loosing battle right now. Cell phone companies keep text messages about 5 days & voice mails about 30 days. You only can see that a text or a voice mail was sent form a number and received at what time nothing more, they argue that it is to costly to retain more data than that. In order for Trayvon’s voice to still exist on a phone recording it as to be saved by the owner of that phone before it reaches thirty days old or it is deleted by the service provider, or it as to exist on an old fashion answering machine.

    Reply
  143. colin black says:
    February 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    colin black says:

    February 12, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    This is how it goes down.
    After a night confab with Oysterman a brainstorm.
    Foggen realises his story of the kid being the aggresor an he the heroic surviver is going to work.

    Just a couple of tweaks here an there.
    Cops seemed concerned as to this unarmed kids with juice an skittles would decide to attack me.

    Sleeps on it an by the reconstruction next day has deceided to push.
    The hey this guy was a punk thug scenario itching for to beat down my ass.
    Sure he ran but he walked right back an circled my truck twice taunting me an hey.
    A probably even told the dispatch that.

    So foggen thinks he is planting the seeds of an agresive bang ganging type dude.

    Totally forgeting that the recorded non emergancy call
    Utterly refutes that lie.
    How could Trayvon come back circle his car twice with him sat inside.
    We here him say shit he s running an exit his truck to run after him.
    So how an when was Trayvon able to circle him .
    Ah details details dont matter makes the kid sound dangerous an its a good kill anyway .
    This will bllow over in a couple of days.

    Reply
    • towerflower says:
      February 12, 2013 at 10:22 pm

      Colin: I agree that I believe he made up that story, it doesn’t jive with the timeline nor with how he describes the unfolding events on the NEN. But, he also tells Singleton that first night about TM circling his vehicle so his mind was in motion already to come up with a supporting story.

      Reply
  144. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    Zena, yeah. Can they even share, whatever they get from any source, with the jury and ask the jury to make the comparisons as evidence that it sounds like the screams anyway?

    If that’s their purpose of course.

    Speaking of voice recordings, anyone notice that the defendant said “… everytime he hit me in the nose I thought my head was going to explode.” ?

    Thought it was the head slamming that caused the head exploding sensations.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      February 12, 2013 at 9:54 pm

      The defense wanting the voice recordings– they can hold trial in the public court before trial, by sharing the voice recordings that they may get, and ask the public with jury pool to compare and decide.

      Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:14 am

        I just think O’Mara is worried that a real voice expert can positively identify Trayvon’s voice.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 14, 2013 at 1:27 pm

          ‘…worried…”

          I’m worried that dinner won’t turn out just quite right.
          I’m worried about my sons test today.
          I’m worried that his band won’t play that well at the talent show.
          I’m worried about that #6 cyl intake valve spring making 2 more rounds without breaking

          I think O’ Mara has a problem with his bowels and his stomach, not to mention that lack of sleep problem.

          I think he’s well past “…worried..” at this point.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:22 pm

        IMHO, I think O’Mara’s most worried about stringing the paying supporters along long enough to get paid. By now he knows for certain that his client is guilty as sin.

        Reply
    • towerflower says:
      February 12, 2013 at 10:24 pm

      He claims he took several hits to his nose and yet where is all the blood from these repeated hits? Cast off should have been present on TM’s outer clothing.

      Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 12, 2013 at 10:36 pm

      @ay2z

      Zena, yeah. Can they even share, whatever they get from any source, with the jury and ask the jury to make the comparisons as evidence that it sounds like the screams anyway?

      The job of defense and prosecution is to convince the jury whose voice is screaming based on evidence. The State will have the enhanced tape that captured GZ in the background cursing at Trayvon while the screaming is also heard. Also;
      1. The screams stop with the gun shot. Yet, GZ says that Trayvon continued to move and talk. If that is true, then GZ should have continued yelling for help since he also said that he yelled for help to get someone to restrain Trayvon.

      2. GZ said that Trayvon was smothering him, but the tape does not evidence a pause between the screams sufficient to substantiate smothering.

      3. There are words heard on the tape, such as “I’m begging you” and “No” yet GZ says he only yelled “help” and “help me.”

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 12, 2013 at 11:35 pm

        thanks

        Wonder if they found an audio expert already this week,, and that is who suggests getting the last 3 years audio.

        Judge Nelson will likely repeat “you can take her deposition and ask her yourself first if she even has any audio recordings”. Don’t they listen, or are they just wanting to fill their website with motions? Or are they pushing Judge Nelson to say or do something that will cause them to ask for a recusal (again, maybe judge No. 4 will be lucky)

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 12, 2013 at 11:52 pm

          @ay2z

          Don’t they listen, or are they just wanting to fill their website with motions?

          That’s a problem, because those motions are not on their website. They are not on the circuit court’s website, neither on the docket sheet for the clerk of the court’s website. They might come up yet but thus far, they are only available through Twitter with the hash tag for Zimmerman.

          Reply
      • groans says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm

        @Xena – Someone upthread pointed out that these motions (and more are stored on a web server (link below). Interestingly, the “parent directory” for the page (is it an ftp page?) is the legal defense FUND website – not the legal website.

        http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/

        Reply
      • MelRoy says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:15 pm

        Well spotted, Groans.

        Reply
  145. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    about the 3 years of voice recordings, what good will that do unless you can bring them in via an ‘expert’ witness?

    Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use?

    That would be like asking the jury to smell the contents of the paint cans for decomp and deciding if it was decomp in the Caylee case.

    Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 12, 2013 at 9:25 pm

      @ay2z. I’m pretty sure that DeeDee has not had the same cell phone for 3 yrs, neither maintained voice mails that far back. Since the treehouse has attempted doxing her, I seriously doubt that she has the same phone number since GZ killed Trayvon. I know that some stuff can be backed up and restored on cell phones, but if O’Mara wants voice mail from 3 yrs ago, he might have to get it from the cell phone company — IF DeeDee had a cell phone 3 yrs ago.

      Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 12, 2013 at 10:40 pm

      Can you imagine how long it would take to listen to three years’ worth of DeeDee’s phone conversations? Sheesh! Last February 26 she was on the phone all day with Trayvon! I wonder if that’s typical for her. No disrespect meant to the young lady, but she obviously likes to talk.

      Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:15 am

        HA! Dave, sounds like you never been in love before. I remember being on the phone with someone in Israel for ±3hrs for several week. Hours read like minutes. Minutes read like seconds.

        Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:43 pm

        @ SM WOW, you must have really been in LOVE! lol

        Reply
      • Deborah Garner Moore says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:26 pm

        @Dave:

        LOL! Dave. Remember when you were that age and talking on the phone to your significant other? I remember being on the phone with my boyfriend all day long. We would hang up, then he would call me back, hang up again and then I would call him back. My mom of course, thought I was crazy! Oh those were the days. We would be just talking about the basketball game, the football game, going to a party in Brooklyn, the school dance…..just everything under the sun! No worries back in those days……….for one day! LOL!

        Reply
    • lady2soothe says:
      February 14, 2013 at 4:35 pm

      Over on the TreeStump they’re now saying DeeDee is a composite person, completely fictional.

      Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:45 pm

        @lady2soothe

        Over on the TreeStump they’re now saying DeeDee is a composite person, completely fictional.

        It’s called a false accusation to bait — flush her out. They want to make contact with DeeDee to intimidate and demean her. They would like to place her in harm’s way by releasing her personal information.

        Reply
        • lady2soothe says:
          February 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm

          I agree completely… Have been wondering, because Trayvon was in high school and a sweet kid who probably had many friends, just how it’s been managed to keep the real DeeDee safe and invisible.

          Awhile back I saw some of Trayvon’s friends on FB, their addresses were published on the TreeStump with the preverbal hate speech & racists rants. I wrote to them and suggested they black their FB pages from anyone they didn’t know. Never went back and checked and never received a reply.

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 14, 2013 at 5:17 pm

            @lady2soothe. Most Zidiots are instigators. They get info and hope by releasing it, that some insane person will cause harm while they sit back and wait to hear about it.

          • lady2soothe says:
            February 14, 2013 at 6:08 pm

            @ Xena…. Of course, you should have seen the weird noises coming out of HP the other day and now the BS and backtracking in the last hour or so with DENIED. Well just put it this way, if it wasn’t so pathetic it would be comical.

          • Xena says:
            February 14, 2013 at 6:48 pm

            @lady2soothe

            @ Xena…. Of course, you should have seen the weird noises coming out of HP the other day and now the BS and backtracking in the last hour or so with DENIED. Well just put it this way, if it wasn’t so pathetic it would be comical.

            Their playbook is always the same. Propaganda — release documents via Twitter before they are filed with the court. This gives the Zidiots opportunity to build false hypothesis around their ignorance of legal procedures and try fear tactics.

            After the court denies the Feign Team’s motions, silence or rants about it being railroading.

            Then demean the victim, his family, attorney Crump, President Obama, and pro-justice for Trayvon supporters.

            Oh — and use dog whistles — lots of dog whistles such as “savage,” “Obama’s sons,” “apes,” and “Traycoon.”

          • lady2soothe says:
            February 14, 2013 at 7:12 pm

            Some of their posts are so filthy I want to cry. I know what it’s like to lose a child, the pain is so deep you can hardly swallow. I pray the Martin/Fulton Family never sees the vile comments these hateful people write (I use *people* loosly).

            My (grown) children have been racially profiled, as have I for being with them and it’s no joke. But to hear/read the sickness is almost unbearable.

          • Deborah Garner Moore says:
            February 14, 2013 at 8:08 pm

            @lady2soothe:

            OMG. I didn’t know you had lost one of your childrem! My heart goes out to you. I cannot even imagine the pain of losing a child. I will keep you in my prayers and ask God to hold you and give you strength to make it.

            To think that Tray’s parents had to not only put up with a poor piss investigation of their son’s murder, but to learn that it was being covered up, and then to have to fight for justice for their son, and then now to have to read their son’s reputation and character being smeared??? I am appallled. The racist comments from the Nuthouse is something that I don’t read and it is something that I as a black woman do not entertain. I know that racist bigoted people exist and will never go away. Their denial of the facts is why they spew their racist vitriol. We know that racists never win and that is why we must continue to fight them. I don’t give credence to any of their vitriol racist garbage. It is to be expected from uneducated, ignorant hillbilly’s.

          • lady2soothe says:
            February 14, 2013 at 9:08 pm

            @ Deborah G… Thank you

            I have 3 sons and 2 daughters all of mixed decent (Metizo and Black). 1993 my middle son was killed in a rollover Dec. 9th just 2 weeks before his 17th birthday (He was a Christmas day baby). My youngest son shares Trayvon and birthday (he turned 30 Feb. 5th) was shot twice while being robbed but for the grace of God, he survived and I do not have to suffer what Sybrina had endure (no one was ever arrested). I know what it feels like to get *that call*, twice no less, so I have enormous compassion for the Martin/Fulton Family.

            I don’t go in for the tit for tat fighting on HP or elsewhere because ultimately I can’t win with the bigots and racists. Their minds are infected with hatred no antibiotic will cure. I just know God will punish those who spread their evil. Meanwhile we will continue to fight for Justice for Trayvon and the forgotten.

            Emmit Till (1955)
            George Stiney (1944)
            Roy Belton (1920)
            Big Nose George (1881)
            Will Brown (1919)
            Cordie Cheek (1933)
            Joe Coe (1891)
            Anthony Crawford (1916)
            Pancho Daniel (1858)
            Michael Donald (1981)
            Wesley Everest (1919)
            Leo Frank (1915)
            Raymond Gunn (1931)
            John Wesley Heath (1884)
            Sam Hose (1899)
            Ed Johnson (1906)
            Frank Little (1917)
            Steve Long (1868)
            Francis McIntosh (1836)
            Jim Miller (1909)
            Laura and L.D. Nelson (1911)
            Mack Charles Parker (1959)
            George Parrott (1881)
            Ell Persons (1917)
            Henry Plummer (1864)
            Robert Prager (1918)
            Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith (1930)
            Bill Sketoe (1864)
            Henry Smith (1893)
            Hyrum Smith (1844)
            Joseph Smith (1844)
            Lamar Smith (1955)
            Joseph Standing (1879)
            Emmett Till (1955)
            Mary Turner (1918)
            Jesse Washington (1916)
            Ellen Watson (1889)
            Eliza Woods (1886)

      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 5:42 pm

        “…a composite person, ..” what, are her ears white…her eyes are Asian ?? Dare I say it….”The Mrs. Potato Head Defense”

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 6:20 pm

        *facepalm*

        Reply
    • gblock says:
      February 15, 2013 at 4:57 am

      “Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use? ”

      ay2z,

      I’m pretty sure that it is the case in ALL states that jurors are not allowed to do their own investigation/testing. Their verdict is supposed to be based on what is presented in court, not on anything that they learned anywhere else.

      Reply
  146. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    All the motions,is it really good to annoy the judge asking for more and more on the same subject when her answer has been ‘take her deposition!’. MOM even interrupted her rudely a couple times in the last hearing, talked over her.

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 12, 2013 at 9:00 pm

      She will probably lose her temper because he is so annoying, then he will cry she is biased and he wants a new judge.

      Reply
  147. Jun says:
    February 12, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    I also do not get how Omara is supposed to present Fogenhats without him taking the stand

    It is not like the state will not be able to prove that Fogenhats is the guy that did it LOL

    There’s nothing within the evidence that proves Fogenhats was attacked… pretty much only Fogenhats claimed he was attacked

    w6? I think if he wants to not get indicted on perjury and false statements to police, he will stick with his story because it can be proven his retracted statement was a lie, but it looks like he took the high road and retracted his statement, which is a defense to perjury. As well, w6 does not prove Fogenhats was attacked, even if he did not retract his statement. w1, w2, w8, w18, all point to the defendant as the aggressor.

    Reply
    • Rachael says:
      February 12, 2013 at 9:05 pm

      Nope, no proof of attack. Proof of a fight perhaps, and yes he had some minor injuries, but they don’t match up with his story and he refused to go to the hospital. Anyone being wacked on the head like he “said” he was should certainly have it checked out. But nooooooo. Then there might jave been official documentation that his injuries did not match his narrative (as well, they might have wanted to run a tox screen on him).

      Reply
      • Tee says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:31 pm

        And just think, if you just killed someone and you are claiming self defense wouldn’t you want all the documentation you could get to prove that you were seriously injured. He had to know that he was going to need this to prove his innocence. He was hiding something that night we all known it and I bet whoever he talked to that night advised him not to go to the hospital. There is a picture of him on the phone while a witness took the bloody back of the head picture if i’m not mistaken.

        Reply
        • Frederick Leatherman says:
          February 12, 2013 at 10:17 pm

          You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style.

          I don’t think he needed anyone to tell him to refuse to go to the ER because, with the exception of the medic who briefly treated him at the scene, he was the only person who knew how he got those wounds and how trivial they were.

          Reply
        • Deborah Garner Moore says:
          February 13, 2013 at 7:43 pm

          @Tee:

          I have been saying this since day one! ! Being a Nurse, I found it odd that a man who claims he had his head bashed against the concrete ground only sustained such “minor” injuries. Most of the pts. that I have taken care of in the past, sustain more severe head trauma which require care in a rehabilitation, learning how to walk, talk, eat and do other ADL skills. I also found it odd that a man who was brutally beaten wouldn’t want to have as much medical documentation from a Specilist or would REFUSE to even see a Specialist! WHY? Why was he not complaining of neck and back pain. Why was their no abrasions on the lower back of his head? If ones nose is broken, why would he refuse to see an ENT Specialist and take their advice and have X-ray done, and a Ct. Scan of his head? Everytime I bring this up on the HP, I get absolutely no answers from the Zimmerman family and brigade. They cannot refute what I say, and they know that I am RIGHT! Fogen did not want to have a Medical Doctor assess or evaluate his minor injuries. Even his own PA documented that he suffered no trauma and had a “possible broken nose” but it cannot be documented because he did not have X-rays taken, no Ct. Scans, nor did he have an MRI.

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 7:50 pm

            It’s a FogenPhoolePhantasy that his head was bashed. If it was, there would be very little skin left on the back of his head. Any of us that ever did a header off of a bike can recall what the knees looked like.

            Fogen is so utterly stupid, he has expound on everything to the point of ridiculousness. If he had said he slammed me to the ground with a flying tackle and I whacked my head so hard I blacked out for a second, that’s far more believable than his detail of lies. I was so disoriented I had no choice….

      • Jun says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:51 pm

        There’s no forensic trace at all whatsoever that the victim caused anything at all on Fogenhats

        Reply
        • Deborah Garner Moore says:
          February 13, 2013 at 7:15 pm

          @Jun:

          Can you please tell me why we call GZ “FOGENHATS?” I have been calling him Fogen, because everyone else has been but I have no idea why I started doing that! I call him a lot of other names too, but why does this man call himself “Fogenhats?” Also, I will be watching ID Discovery tonight on my cable in NYC.

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:16 pm

            A lot of people have their own spin on Fogen. I came up with FogenPhoole…..because that’s what he is.

            FogenPhoolesPhamily is in FogenPhantasy land

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:22 pm

            He and his supporters are “Zimbies” here…..no different than Zombies…..always in search of brains………

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

            I coined the term “Zidiots” from the “Zidiot Nation” and there is no cure.

      • grey winter sky says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:49 am

        Professor….I believe you’re correct. If fogen was on the phone talking to John (W6), wouldn’t that be on his phone records? If he had been seriously hurt, wouldn’t it have seemed strange that he made a call to a “neighbor” and not his wife…..and instead had someone else call her? If his nose had been broken as badly as he says, why would he have been “casually” talking to a “neighbor”…one would think that all that bleeding and breakage would have made a phone conversation difficult…LOL

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:04 am

        In the picture that looks photoshopped

        In all honesty, his nose does not look broken or bleeding, it looks like he rubbed blood onto it till it dried, hanging off the tip

        Also on scene, Fogenhats was the only party with blood on his hands and his wuss scratches had already healed and were drying by the time EMT arrived, in which he then told lies and avoided having being looked at by an expert

        Reply
      • SearchingMind says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:07 am

        @ Professor
        “You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style”

        That would indeed be a huge dynamite (if phone records show communication between the two right after the murder). I would not be surprised if that John has already lawyered up.

        Reply
      • grey winter sky says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:58 am

        Jun……I’ve said it before on another post…..if he didn’t get those facial scratches running into a tree, I believe he created them himself. 1) Using his fingernails, reaching to the back of his head and digging into his scalp pulling his hands forward.
        2) Using his right hand and scratching his face with his nails from the upper left-hand side, diagonally down to the bottom right-hand side of his face. 3) Scratched the inside of his nose with his fingernail to make it bleed. That’s why he didn’t want to go to the hospital..they would have known what actually caused the bleeding. He was also seen rubbing his hands on his face after he got up and walked away…..One might think that he was spreading the blood to make it look serious.

        Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:43 am

        Thinking about what happened immediately after the murder. It seems as though Z. made a phone call, and rather cooly asked someone else to take pix and call Shellie to tell her that he shot someone. Shellie was then in contact with Osterman who took her to the scene.

        IF Z. left the house (following the mythical mentoring session) to go to Target for groceries, all of the above strikes me as being incredibly cool. If my wife thought I was at Target and I was being put in a cruiser a couple blocks from home, wouldn’t I want her to have just a few details? And why would O. take Shellie to the scene rather than straight to SPD?

        All fits in with ongoing questions I have had with their immediately leaving their house. All of the national outcry didn’t start up until days/weeks later. And Z. was walking around thinking that this was all going to blow over.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:15 pm

        Since the defendant didn’t have any money in his pocket, I doubt his going for groceries story. Although, in some states, food stamps money is on a credit-type card, but there has been no indication that they rec’d food stamps.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 13, 2013 at 1:00 pm

          There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.

          Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.

          Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.

          GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?

          Reply
  148. Jun says:
    February 12, 2013 at 8:43 pm

    I think the blank disc motion is so pointless. Even without the motion, the state is doing everything formal and providing a paper trail for everything handed over. I also believe they did not bother looking through the DVD. I remember at the last hearing Omara claimed to not get certain paperwork, and then Bernie got up, went through his paperwork and found the certain piece of paperwork for him. Fogenhats is just playing games. He prolly wrote the motion. If they claim it is blank, the state would prolly offer to burn the disc right in front of them and test it and then give it to them and then have everything initialed. Also at the last hearing and motions they claimed the state never gave them the cellphone analysis info, although they got give discs with info and were even offered to go to the place where the forensics on the cellphone were being done.

    Reply
  149. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    I don’t mean to offend, but why do we support the gzlegalcase website by paying attention to it and do their bidding by sharing it’s new ‘news’.

    That’s what they put it there for, and we do their bidding. So do regular new stations, OS has the latest motion up now. The defense is doing the ‘feeding’, maybe we should wait and get it from non defense cahnnels>

    Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 12, 2013 at 8:34 pm

      I don’t think that anyone here is “supporting” the gzlegalcase website. We’re just looking to see what they’re up to, not to do anyone’s bidding. Most of us can recognize bullshit when we see it.

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:49 pm

        Agree, don’t think anyone is supporting it, but still we are doing what the defense wants, to pay attention to their site and its offerings, and share.

        They are making things public for a reason (unless we believe MOM at the last hearing saying it really isn’t necessary with a momentary sly smile towards the camera).

        I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case, is suiting their needs of keeping everything up front. He is using the media, but will he use it to the level of success as happened with the last big case.

        Last google search for the case fpr the subject videos (was looking for the Sunday channel 6 tv Flashpoint, every thumbnail had juniors face until it reached a Fox news and MOM video. They are able to get their links up front and center for searches.

        Is this media push, trying the case in the media, going to work again?

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 9:13 pm

          “I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case…”

          Yes we do talk about his client and case, and the forensics, the DNA, his lies, his families lies, Taaffe’s racist comments, Ostermans crap, SheLie’s lying, the witnesses, his motive, his utter failures in life, Fogens racist comments, his NEN call, all the videos that are made that destroy his story and a lot of other things.

          Supporting his website……..ehhhh, not so much.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:53 pm

        I already know Junior and Fogenhats’ KKKlan plot

        they are trying to taint the jury, place a false image in their minds, so he does not have to take the stand

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:57 pm

        Jun, notice junior has kept his goatee and stach, while his brother lost that, but morphed his hair style through the subtle Mohawk to mirror junior?

        Junior’s been the public face of the defendant, and will be interesting to see if the goatee comes back to the defense table for trial.

        Reply
      • grey winter sky says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:22 pm

        Dave…You’re right. It’s insight into how they’re thinking and what they’re thinking. I know that the outhousers do the same thing. They come over here (and other “justice for Trayvon sites”), read, and then go back to the outhouse and report.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 12, 2013 at 10:01 pm

        The Conservative Tinfoil Hat stalking us? I am shocked LOL

        Reply
      • abbyj says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:54 am

        @ay2z, Just fyi: that jazzy do fogen wore before Judge Nelson is officially known as a “faux hawk.” Everything about him is faux, so why not his hair style?

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:20 pm

        Yep, and ShelLie practicing her cosmetology skills.
        Fogen can’t go out for a ‘real’ haircut with all the death threats, ya know!

        Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 15, 2013 at 4:43 am

        ay2z, in order to refute their lies, we have to discuss them.

        Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 13, 2013 at 3:59 am

      Keep your enemy closest to you, remember that saying? Then you know him, understand his modus operandi and well equipped to pour sand into the engine that drives him. That way you bring him to a crashing halt.

      Reply
  150. elcymoo says:
    February 12, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Someone posted earlier (on the previous thread, I think) the link to O’Mara’s request for subpoenas of all audio recordings of Trayvon’s voice over the past three years. Did anyone post a link to his similar demand of the Martin family members yet? If not, here it is:

    Click to access subpeonas_dt_martins_fultons.pdf

    Reply
    • Tee says:
      February 12, 2013 at 9:21 pm

      How & where in the hell will he get something like that. That’s just plain crazy, another stalling tactic. Surely he jest. People don’t even leave outgoing greetings on there cell phones voice mail anymore they just use the per recorded message. I have a teenage daughter she have never left me a voice mail on my phone ever, she hangs up if I don’t answer, and text me what she wanted to say.

      Reply
    • aussie says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:51 am

      My brother has a phone that records messages — and they automatically get wiped after 10 days. I don’ see Voice Mail services holding anything for 3 years, and of course especially not if the person leaves hat provider. If.

      Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 13, 2013 at 10:33 am

      I will be very interested to see the judge’s response to these requests. They strike me as being overly broad if what they are going for is a sample to use in voice recognition. But I also still don’t see how these can possibly help Z.’s case. I seriously doubt that they can locate an expert willing to swear that the screams absolutely did NOT come from the same person as any voice sample provided. It would seem as though they would be evaluating for the certainty of a match. Lack of certainty could mean just about anything.

      Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:39 am

      O’Mara needs to find out if there is a voice exemplar of Trayvon so that a voice identification analyst can get on the stand and say absolutely, “This scream of terror was Trayvon Martin’s last word alive,” because once O’Mara realizes that can happen in that courtroom, all bets are off and his client HAS TO PLEAD. Since the only way to find out if they have located an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice is to subpoena ALL recordings of his voice, that’s the request we see from O’Mara. But I think the i.d. of Strayvon’s scream is part of the rebuttal case so I don’t think it’s really discoverable until there is a legal showing of “self-defense.”

      Reply
  151. esentrick says:
    February 12, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    follow

    Reply
    • vickie s. votaw says:
      February 13, 2013 at 2:09 pm

      Llmpapa, that’s what I thought yesterday when reading here. Fogen grabbed onto the hoodie , his DNA is there. If Trayvon is bending over fogen, there wouldn’t be any or maybe just a little DNA,, less than if he is grabbing the hoodie. Right?

      Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:14 pm

        I’m starting to think Fogen pulled the hood of the hoodie so that Trayvon couldn’t see properly– this could explain both how Fogen was able to grab Trayvon at all and keep him from running, and also how Fogen got a drip of blood onto Trayvon’s inner shirt (because the inner shirt was exposed with the outer hoodie pulled up).

        THere must be a more detailed color photo of this poor boy taken by Fogen’s friend and neighbor.

        Reply
  152. William Walton says:
    February 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    Bettykath, I do not know if you saw the post I sent you concerning Experts so I will send it again. Experts are those who know more and more, about less and less, until they know everything about nothing. This is what we who operate in the arena of Geo-Chemistry and Geo-Engineering feel about Experts. We also have another saying about Experts and that is: If Experts cannot dazzle you with their Brillance, then they will try to Baffle you with their Bullshit.

    On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation. TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. In addition, look at the distance between the two on the ground and the distance does not in any way allow GZ to fully extend his arm. This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.

    Reply
    • bettykath says:
      February 12, 2013 at 4:54 pm

      In line with your “view” of experts, you know what BS is. MS is more of the same. PHD is piled higher and deeper.

      You’re right that the situation was dynamic rather than static. That’s why I said the prosecution will take all the witness statements and describe the elephant. It’s a reference to the cartoon of various blind people describing an elephant from what they can “see” with their hands, each one at a different part of the elephant. In this case, the various statements describe an evolving event, not a static object. ooo, that hurt, describing an elephant as an object. change that to not an animal standing still.

      Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 12, 2013 at 5:13 pm

      BK–this is where someone with more knowledge of courtroom procedures is going to have to help me out. If O’Mara chooses not to put Z. on the stand, then are all of his statements made to police inadmissable? I mean certainly if he is on the stand, they have great value to refute what he says (in fact, WHATEVER he says, since he has changed stories so much)–but in a self-defense hearing, where the defense has the lead, do they still have the option of showing that Z’s account is full of holes when compared to the evidence regarding timelines asd suche?

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 6:04 pm

        If I understood previous lessons from here, I think the prosecution can admit them if it chooses, but not the defense. The only way for the defendant’s story to be admitted by the defense is for him to take the stand and tell it. Any other defense witnesses would be prevented from telling his story is b/c it is hearsay. They can only speak about what they saw or said.

        It makes sense for the prosecution to hold back the defendant’s statements so the only way his story gets in is by his taking the stand and then the prosecution can use whatever from his many statements to impeach his testimony. I don’t remember the correct phrase but the concept is like he’s speaking against self-interest.

        I suggested that the prosecution may want to use the part of the video from the Serino interview b/c after the defense makes its claims that the defendant was on the ground being pummeled, he got control of Trayvon and shot him. Once the defendant got control, he was no longer in danger. It’s not cricket to shoot someone just b/c you were afraid at some earlier time. If the defense decides that the video presents a wrong impression of what the defendant meant, the only person who can testify to that is the defendant. Then it will get interesting.

        I’m sure the professor can correct any of my statements here that aren’t true.

        Reply
      • lsimon3321 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 2:01 am

        But, doesn’t the SYG/self defense law not require GZ to retreat? Just asking. I think TM was the one with the right to stand his ground but I read some other Florida cases and it seems the aggressor once in the underdog position was able to kill the initial victim. The law really should be changed to Last Man Standing.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:26 pm

        The SYG law doesn’t require that you retreat. The self-defense law requires that you retreat if you can.

        MOM has decided that they SYG law doesn’t apply. Perhaps b/c of the 6-7 minutes preceding the shot which shows the defendant in pursuit. By using the self-defense law I think he will try to show that whatever transpired previous to the encounter doesn’t matter. At the time of the shot, defendant was on the ground, being beaten, afraid for his life, and unable to retreat.

        The prosecution’s counter to this is the interview with Serino where the defendant describes being in control after putting Trayvon in a wrist lock.

        Reply
    • Tzar says:
      February 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm

      The screamer was trapped, the sounds tell you he is not running, he may be struggling to escape but he is not in the active process of running. the desperation also tell you that he is trapped.

      the shooter was not fighting
      how could he fight with one hand? he was, if anything busy, restraining/choking, getting his weapon out and aiming.

      Just close your eyes an listen to the call and ask yourself one question, does someone with a gun scream like that?

      Reply
    • roderick2012 says:
      February 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm

      William Walton says:On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation.

      That’s what so frustrating when anyone tries to discuss this case with a George fan. They swear that the laws of physics and common sense were suspended that night.

      When I heard George’s story that he was able to ‘shimmy’ his body away from the sidewalk my first thought was—if you were strong enough to move your weight plus Trayvon’s weight (assuming that George was telling the truth about Trayvon sitting on his chest) then what was Trayvon doing while he was moving-was he still striking George or was he just along for the ride?
      George has a very low center of gravity and Trayvon had long legs and a much higher center of gravity so why wasn’t George able to ‘bridge’ out and throw Trayvon off him at some point?

      W W :TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand.

      My guess is that the forensics team placed Trayvon’s hoodie under a microscope and noted that the fibers on the bottom right side of Trayvon’s hoodie had been stretched. Maybe they were even able to get an outline of George’s handprint.

      W W This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.

      And the only way for the bullet to have entered Trayvon at zero angle (0) would have meant that George had to have had his gun angled at 45 degrees and Trayvon had to have been leaning at a 45 degree angle while sitting on George’s chest. That’s very improbable since Trayvon should have been moving while he was landing “MMA” style blows on George.

      Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 13, 2013 at 4:20 pm

      I agree. Looks to me like a pretty good roll-around happened for at least a minute. Perhaps even a struggle for the gun.

      Reply
      • MelRoy says:
        February 17, 2013 at 3:11 pm

        They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.

        From the audible evidence so far (as described by witnesses), I imagine GZ tried to make a “citizen’s arrest” of TM – and (rightly) got punched in the face. Some of the witnesses claim to have heard a heated argument but didn’t get scared enough to call 9/11 until the screaming started.

        And for the record, I don’t know who was screaming, but the test is based on “reasonable” fear, not irrational fear.

        Reply
      • roderick2012 says:
        February 17, 2013 at 7:31 pm

        MelRoy says:They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.

        I think Trayvon’s ear piece could have fallen out when George first grabbed him and maybe DeeDee heard some of the conversation after it fell to the ground before disconnecting.

        The only time they were both on the ground is after George shot Trayvon.

        When George shot Trayvon he was still graspingTrayvon’s shirt with his left hand and since the bullet didn’t pass through Trayvon’s body, but exploded inside his body all of that force pushed Trayvon’s body backwards and since George’s right hand was outstretched he lost his balance and fell on top of Trayvon (that’s how he got the grass stains on the toes of his shoes). There was no grass on any other part of George that night.
        This is why witnesses saw George get off Trayvon after the gunshot.

        I think that this gives credence to when Sybrina stated that it was an accident. George probably fired the shot out of frustration not malice but he didn’t have the right to restrain Trayvon in the first place much less stalk or detain him.
        Murder 2!!

        Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 11:24 am

      Experts!

      Reminds me of the story my father used to tell about the Oshee bird, found in tropical jungles. The oshee bird flies in a circle screaming Oooooooh-Sheeeeee-Ooooooo-Sheeeeee and as the circles get smaller and smaller, it flies faster and faster and the screams get louder and louder until finally it flies up its own ass and screams, “Oh-Sheeet it’s DARK IN HERE!”

      But the description of experts’ testimony reminded me of the advice given to trial lawyers in custody cases:
      If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
      If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
      If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
      If that is also against you, pound on the table.

      Reply
      • racerrodig says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:33 pm

        “If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
        If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
        If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
        If that is also against you, pound on the table”

        In all of our cases it’s the 1st two and the 3rd is

        If you have the Law and the Facts hammer both, and so far we have always had all of one and most if not all of the other. I guess we never needed to pound the table yet and hopefully, never will.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 15, 2013 at 12:16 am

        Arthur Kinoy told me that if you get physically removed from a hearing, do so loudly in support of your client.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kinoy

        In 1966, Kinoy was removed from a hearing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities and subsequently convicted of disorderly conduct. In 1968, the U.S. Court of Appeals overturned the conviction.

        Reply
      • William Walton says:
        February 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        Malisha, some who did not consider themselves experts turned out to be experts. My Dad was a physician-surgeon who practiced general medicine, general surgery, and trauma-surgery. The hospital where he was on staff had a women physician who most of the staff called the “Hen Medic”. Dad’s sidekick in surgery would tell Dad this woman was a “Nutcase”. Dad, being very laid back ignored all the comments about this women. That was until one morning at his office he received a phone call from a funeral director who was a patient of his. The funeral director requested that he come to the funeral home and inspect the body of the daughter-in-law of the “Hen Medic”. The funeral director stated that the “Hen Medic” had already signed the daughter-in-law out as complications of chloroform during a pelvic exam. Dad stated that this was one of the problems of using chloroform which was why he did not use it. The funeral director explained that the body had a bandage on her back. Dad inquired like a bandaid, Funeral director, No Doctor like I had when you performed my appendectomy. Dad finished the patient he was with, stated he was called to the hospital, and left for the funeral home. Upon examing the body he found the bandage whitch a surgeon would apply. He removed the bandage to find sutures which a surgeon would apply. He then ordered the funeral director to call the coroner. The coroner arrived and observed the sutures. The coronor ordered Dad to remove the sutures which he did placing them in the surgical tray. Dad asked the funeral director for a pair of long forcepts which he provided. Dad used the forcepts to probe the wound and declared it to be a gunshot wound. The body was taken back to the hospital where an autopsy was performed that night. The results were that the uterus was severally torn up, the bullet struck a bone and ricocheted and exited the wound in the back. What was determined was the the “Hen Medic” did not like the daughter-in-law and felf her son deserved better. What was even more astonishing was that she was not satisfied that she had killed her by overdosing her with chloroform, but, had to make sure by inserting a pistol in her vagina and pulling the trigger. Those involved in the autopsy concluded the the “Hen Medic” felt the bullet would be slowed down by the soft internal tissue and would never exit the body. Had the bullet not hit the bone, this case would have never been solved. The “Hen Medic” was convicted, sentenced to prison, and had her Medical License Revoked, and Shreded.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm

        Wow, William Walton, that sounds like a made-for-TV movie! Fact is indeed stranger than fiction!

        Reply
  153. Bill Taylor says:
    February 12, 2013 at 4:24 pm

    simple reality and common sense……fogen claims he was held on the ground in the struggle for his very life for over a minute, yet the clear pictures of him at the station about an hour later show his clothing to look as if it was freshly pressed not a single wrinkle, no smears on the back of any of his clothing, dry and NEAT….the medical tests checking his bp heart rate etc. showed those to be NORMAL = simple common sense there is no way on earth fogen was in ANY struggle much less one for his very life….none of the blood pattern from his minor scratches indicate he was EVER on his back NO smearing of any kind and clearly flowing down and towards the front of his head.

    Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      February 13, 2013 at 3:01 am

      Fogen actually committed first degree murder of a child and, he should have been charged accordingly with the death penalty definitely on the table. but, I guess the state went with second degree because they would stand a better chance of getting a conviction. he executed that child and he is now trying to lie his way out of paying for his crime.

      I pray that he is locked up for the rest of his life and who knows, maybe he will meet his demise just like someone else we all know did. Trayvon never laid a hand on him and he knows it and, for some members of the SPD to try and cover this murder up, they shoul, d all be charged with obstruction of justice. the SPD is also a big part of the reason that Trayvon is being deamonized by racist whites in this country. they were the ones leaking information about Trayvon’s school suspension as well as some other things.

      They did this because, they were being investigated by the DOJ and the FBI because they did not take this case serious and do a proper investigation due to the fact that they were in cover up mode for Fogen. I read about this on a web site last night but, I can’t remember the name of the site. but it tells of how in the beginning there was no vilifying of Trayvon and his family until the SPD started leaking info on Trayvon. it’s no wonder that some people have no trust in those whose job it is to serve and protect. in some cases we need to be protected from them.

      Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:25 am

        lsc–my understanding is that first degree murder requires premeditation. In other words, Z. would have had to decide that he wanted to kill Trayvon Martin, made a plan and set about to carry it through. While I have seen some suggestions about what might have transpired via phone between Z. and others prior to the incident, so far as I can tell, this remains nothing more than speculation. And my take on Z. is that he has pretty limited capacity to think through things rationally and act on them. Seems to be more of a shoot from the hip kinda guy–acting on impulse.

        I think what we have is something far more like a perfect storm. Z. was pumped up (and perhaps a bit obsessively) by his vision of ridding his neighborhood of punks. He had the false courage provided by a weapon and a noisy background of loose-talking racially-biased neighbors feeding his belief system that there was some kind of war going on with a bunch of punks who were laughing at him as they entered at will and ripped off whatever they wanted.

        And into the middle of this mess walked Trayvon Martin. Blam. Oops.

        Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:49 pm

        @lurker,

        The clubhouse videos combined with Dee Dee’s statements, appear to show that GZ couldn’t have seen Trayvon near Taffe’s. Trayvon would’ve arrived at the mail area about 13 min before GZ showed up. The bushes and trees hide the mail area from RVC. The logical conclusion is that someone saw Trayvon, knew from the flyers or the newsletter that GZ was the NW guy and called him. His telephone # was in the newsletter too.

        I don’t think he left his house with the intention to kill Trayvon. I do think it is possible, GZ realized he was detaining at gunpoint an innocent teenager, and the police was about to arrive. Any dreams he may have had about a carreer in law enforcement, would have evaporated, if Trayvon could’ve told his story.

        That is pretty difficult to proof though.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 7:05 pm

          Fogen had a Freudian Slip during his Hannity Interview when he said to the effect that he knew the cops would be there any minute and what would they think when they arrived and he had his gun out.

          Since he cannot tell fact from fiction I think that is what he thought when he realized people were watching the cops were almost there. He may have thought kill the witness and claim SD. If not, he’s going to jail and now there is no LE career at all.

          Reply
      • grey winter sky says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm

        lurker…..I think that what you think is absolutely correct….but add to that fogen’s anger issues. Trayvon tried to escape, couldn’t answer fogen’s questions (which REALLY po’d fogen), fogen REALLY lost his temper and blam…take that you punk. And since the kid wasn’t armed with anything but skittles and a tea….a BIG OOPS.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:31 am

        Agree agree agree. SPD in effect gave Fogen permission to kill and then, after the fact, tried to give him a walk. Only the monumental efforts of the Fulton-Martin family and their support team and the organizations that kicked in prevented this gross miscarriage of justice from becoming a murder-by-consent ring.

        I understand Corey’s decision not to go for first-degree, though. I even support it; it was smart, and you can’t beat smart.

        Well, you can beat smart but you can’t beat it with dumb.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:40 pm

        Fogen told Serino that he holstered his gun right after shooting Trayvon and Trayvon “kind of sitting up” and falling. Why holster his goddamn gun if he was still in danger? Why holster his gun in case the guy was faking being hit, and then came at him to make sure he would be diaper-worthy? NO WAY anything about that idiotic self-defense story was true and the cops KNEW IT and yet they had to all take the same line and follow it for the exact reason that Dorner went berserk in California — because you cannot stand up and try to tell the truth in the middle of a corrupt organization that has BIG GUNS.

        I do not agree with Dorner’s murders. But I do recognize the kind of assaults on the senses and the sanity that deep corruption causes and I realize that it is corrosive to the human spirit. The extreme corruption of the SPD stinks to high heaven and nothing will cover that smell until it is opened up and aired and all the turds are cleared the hell OUT and it will take a Herculean effort to clean out THOSE STABLES. I hope our feds are not too week-kneed and lily-livered to do it.

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:20 pm

        @Malisha
        SPD kinda gave Fogen a pass, but not enough to keep the detectives from videotaping him in a “reenactment.” Somehow, those wheels kept turning for few days.

        Reply
      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 15, 2013 at 2:12 am

        I agree with you. I don’t believe in the death penalty personally, but I certainly believe Fogen executed Trayvon Martin.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:00 pm

        @Cercando — They kept looking for evidence for a few days because SERINO thought Fogen was guilty of murder and he was in charge of the investigation. Once it was clear that no matter what he thought, there would be no charges drawn against Fogen, the “blue door” closed. FDLE had to open it with the help of a shoe-in by the feds.

        Reply
    • Tommy's Mom says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:16 am

      Oh my great minds,I just mentioned the same thing in a previous comment.

      Reply
  154. bettykath says:
    February 12, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    Someone asked on another thread about real estate at the Retreat at Twin Lakes. I did a quick look. At least 6 on RVC have sold in the past year, 4 of them since 3/1/12. And at least 20 are listed for sale or rent. I didn’t look at all of them to verify if the listing are current but they do show volatility. If someone else is interested, I binged “real estate retreat at twin lakes sanford fl” this brought up the RVC entries. changing to “real estate twin trees sanford fl” brought up those on Twin Trees.

    Reply
  155. bettykath says:
    February 12, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Discovery is continuing and then the self-defense hearing. MOM has said that he can show self-defense with the evidence without the defendant testifying. How can he do this?

    I posted earlier on the previous thread. This is almost the same but stuff has been added and/or modified.

    I’ve been trying to figure out what evidence the defense could present at the hearing to show self-defense without the defendant testifying.

    There are his medical reports of head lacerations and a possible broken nose presented by the nurse practitioner who can testify about the severity of the injuries and when she saw the defendant. She cannot testify to anything the defendant told her about how he got the injuries. When the injuries happened would be by subpoena of the EMTs who treated him on the scene with further descriptions of the injuries. The taker of the bloody picture would be subpoenad to identify the where and when of the photo. Which EMT/s chosen by the defense would depend on the content of their depositions. The one/s most favorable to the defendant would be chosen.

    There are witnesses who can be subpeonad who saw the defendant on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. The defense will claim, as it has, that the defendant was trapped and was being beaten by Trayvon.

    What else is there? Does anyone have any other ideas? I know, you don’t want to give the defense any ideas.

    The prosecution would show by cross examination of defense witnesses that all the injuries were superficial and not indicative of any kind of bashing. The lacerations weren’t bad enough to warrant stitches. The photographer would testify re: the complementary photo of the defendant’s face taken at SPD which would be entered evidence to show that most of the swelling had gone down just a few hours later and that there was no sign of black eyes.

    Point to be argued, where are the X-rays proving a broken nose? Is this a fair question for the prosecution to present?

    Would the prosecution enter the autopsy report into evidence? It shows that Trayvon has no injuries or DNA on him consistent with hitting the defendant but wouldn’t it open up lots more questions to the ME about other aspects of the autopsy report and turn the focus on the prosecution’s case rather than on the defendant’s stories?

    What can be used to counter the witnesses? There is the video of the defendant’s admission to Serino that he had Trayvon in a wrist lock and that he, the defendant had control, enough control to pull his gun, aim it, and shoot.

    And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.

    As an aside, what’s interesting about the Serino interview video, (LLMpapa are you there?) is that the walk-thru video contradicts it. Watch the defendant’s hands in the walk-thru as he describes reaching for his gun and shooting. Then watch it in the Serino interview. Maybe I’m not remembering them right, but I don’t think they show the same thing.

    Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 12, 2013 at 2:51 pm

      I don’t know that the eye witness accounts are going to be as helpful as Z. would want. The one who appeared strongest initially–describing MMA punches (John? or Jon?) changed his story. Not only does his changing the story make him look wobbly, but he didn’t change it in a direction that helps Z. And there are conflicts between witnesses. It will be interesting to see if Z. had any phone contact with any of them.

      I think that O’Mara has been counting on the bloody picture to “prove” that Trayvon beat Z. But, I would guess that there will be some medical experts for the prosecution available to testify that the injuries were minor, suggest some possible injury producing mechanisms (including bushes). I think that O’Mara has been doing a lot of whistling in the dark. He has a client who has already, in all likelihood, destroyed any chance of his being able to make a case–and who cannot be put on the stand.

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 3:11 pm

        I agree that the MMA description and that witness is a problem. But weren’t there other witnesses who described the defendant on the bottom and Trayvon on top? I think MOM would see that as helpful. I’m being a bit lazy in not looking it up and hoping that someone else has the information at the ready.

        Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 12, 2013 at 3:30 pm

        BK–It has been a while since I have looked at all of them, but it seems as though there was not a real clear picture emerging from the bunch. Some details were odd (the person in white was on top–for instance). The kid with the dog only saw one person down and calling out (maybe both were prone? one on top of the other). One woman was quite certain it was the larger man on top and she saw him get off just after the shot. One woman saw two, or maybe one, go by her window running, but wasn’t really sure.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 3:39 pm

        thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.

        I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.

        Reply
      • elcymoo says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:45 pm

        Lurker, you asked in an earlier post when Zimmerman said that it wasn’t his voice on the scream tape. That happened on 2/29, I believe, when Det. Serino played the tape and Zimmerman heard it for the first time. When he was asked it it was him, he said. ‘No’, and ‘It doesn’t even sound like my voice’ or ‘like me’, I don’t recall exactly which. That interview was audio only, if I’m not mistaken.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 6:35 pm

          “…that doesn’t even sound like me….’

          Any takers on an over / under how many times that part of his interview will be replayed for the jury…..I’ll go 6 as the number.

          I have said since last year that there are only 2 things FogenPhoole said that we know are true.

          1) “…..then I got out of my truck..”
          2) “….that’s when I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot..”

          Now I have to add

          3) “…that doesn’t even sound like me…”

          How on Gods Green Earth did I miss that one????????

          Reply
      • lsimon3321 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:51 am

        Don’t forget that during one of GZ’s interviews, he stated, “he yelled for help…and I shot him.” Also once during the reenactment and partially during one of the audio statements, he stated that “he put his hand on his nose and mouth, I mean, he put his hand on my nose and mouth.”

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 10:51 am

          He has quite a few Freudian slips that most certainly will be hammered on by the State.

          He yelled, so I shot him. Picture him when he says I aimed and fried one shot during his reenactment ……the “…what’s are ya gonna do..” shoulder shrug……sickening

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 13, 2013 at 5:43 am

        Only w6 has claimed Trayvon was on top of the defendant

        Reply
      • FactsFirst says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:52 am

        @Race Don’t forget “I WAS ON HIM”

        another one of Forgens “freudian TRUTHS”

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 10:36 am

          Yep….that’s what he said I had a wrist lock, thereby an opportunity to exercise a means of escape (mandated in the SYG law) and at on point I was on him.

          Maybe he meant in the context that we use “…I’m on this..” (cutting the grass, stirring the sauce etc etc etc)

          No, I’d say he meant “I was on top of him and still shot him dead”

          Reply
          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 13, 2013 at 11:53 am

            The wrist lock is just another GZ lie, but only in it’s timing. No doubt he administered a painful wrist lock, but it wasn’t necessary to control TM who wasn’t fighting at all. GZ attempts to make it appear that a wrist lock was necessary for his own safety because TM was so dangerous and powerful. While, in fact, Trayvon never raised his hands, as the alignment of the holes in his garments will show.

            This will probably prove to be quite interesting.
            http://tinyurl.com/bavjdzl

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 6:51 pm

            Yep, Black Dynamite Slim …….wrist lock, which was probably administered as soon as he confronted Trayvon.

            That article I read earlier. A hahahahahahahahahaha He’s Toast !

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 13, 2013 at 7:21 pm

            TOAST FOR SALE………TOAST FOR SALE

            EACH PIECE GUARANTEED TO HAVE TO IMAGE OF FOGEN ON IT

            🙂

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm

            And just how burnt is that toast…….blackened ??

          • mountainmanpat says:
            February 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm

            The image of fogen is….for contrast darker…..NOT to make him look like a negro…..that would be racist……….

          • racerrodig says:
            February 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm

            “.that would be racist……….” We can’t have any accusations like that now can we……homie.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 14, 2013 at 8:38 am

            Reminds me, I gotta go in eBay and get a 4 slice toaster, I love making garlic toast snacks.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 14, 2013 at 12:55 pm

            You gotta get one of those Hot Dog toasters also….man, they put a new meaning into “…food that’s bad for ya, but so what..” It toasts the buns also !!

      • xy11xy says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:54 pm

        …Re W6 who modified his statement about “MMA”. George said “MMA” to Serino in an interview on the 29th(the date, I think)

        I finally got around to enhancing that audio from the 29th about a week ago. The volume was low where George is speaking. I could not believe it when I heard George say “MMA”.

        I came here and was blown away that the Professor has either a comment or a post up referring to the odds of both these people referring to “MMA”. I can no longer doubt my own ears. I had thought it too outrageous to be believed!

        The FDLE folks know what’s up, because it’s Batchelor who asked W6 about his reference to “MMA”…to which he responded that it’s all over the TV now.

        W6 is a grown man who must know the gravity of what has happened. How stupid can he be to do this?

        I have felt from the beginning that George and his buddies were calling up witnesses – possibly pretending to be media, possibly they were in cahoots – to find out what they saw and what they told police.

        This is the outcome of George being allowed to walk free. He was able to move around and synchronize his stories with others in the community.

        They are stupid and deserve what they get (those in cahoots with George). O’Mara was trying to get access to “Biographical” data about witnesses. That includes social security numbers, car tags, credit info, job info etc for the witness and his/her relatives and associates. That should send a chill up their stupid spines.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 17, 2013 at 12:47 pm

          I’m doing a search on Ransberg and I come across a Tampa Bay Times article that has since been deleted from their site. But a recovered copy of the article states that Ransberg is Thomas Ransberg and is a home owner in RATL, is 20 years old, has dreadlocks and is black. Here, the article is at the link just below the DD video: http://tinyurl.com/byyokld

          Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 16, 2013 at 5:21 pm

        I was thinking more about MMA-John. He was real gung-ho-yeah-you-shoulda-seenit-wowzee about the event in the beginning, when it was real clear that the listening audience was made of people who were not only buying Fogen’s story but SELLING IT as well in a police cover-up pyramid scheme. But when it became obvious that things were not as easy-peasey as he originally thought, well then, the atmosphere got dark and unclear, the punches got unthrown, a few bells got unrung, and gee willikers, it was hard to tell what happened.

        Interesting that O’Mara is not interested in getting this guy’s deposition, right? They don’t need to ask him any questions because they’re the ones answering questions for him, and he has these two questions to ask:

        1. What should I say? and —
        2. Are you sure I’m not gonna get in trouble for this?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 16, 2013 at 5:55 pm

          @Malisha

          Interesting that O’Mara is not interested in getting this guy’s deposition, right?

          O’Mara already deposed John. OS published an article on it. O’Mara mentioned John in a motion but omitted that he changed his story several times.

          Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 18, 2013 at 2:31 am

        Lonnie,

        What it said about Thomas Ransberg in that article is pretty innocent and doesn’t connect him with any crime.

        Reply
    • kllypyn says:
      February 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm

      He may have been on top while they were struggling but not for long trayvon was lighter and not as strong.

      Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:51 am

        I think #6 says somewhere, he observed about 18 seconds.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:58 am

        considering his overestimation of time passed between he heard loud voices and the scream (5 minutes) his guess may be wrong and he may have witnessed events out there even for a much shorter time.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:59 am

        And now, I return to my tasks, definitively. 😉

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:25 am

        Ok, one last thing. The timing of the start of witness #11’s call and the shot is taken by the expert (Michael A. Knox.) based on Singleton’s time-line of events in Serino’s capias. Very strange since he has a very detailed and precise time-line on everything else on first sight. I stumbled upon it by using the surprise me button on Amazon.

        That can’t be a mistake it feels to me. Treeslaw / Whonoze did an update based on the 7th discovery files, you find on YouTube concerning the call.

        The page must be 216, not completely sure if I can link to it. This time I needed to scroll back. The first time it showed immediately: Time-line of the shooting.

        I have already decided what to read on my travel otherwise, I would have gotten myself a kindle copy.

        Reply
    • amsterdam1234 says:
      February 12, 2013 at 7:07 pm

      John is the only witness who said Trayvon was on top. W18, W12, W5 and W16 all said GZ was on top.

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:06 pm

        thanks, amsterdam. guess that just leaves the medical evidence, such as it is.

        Reply
      • Tee says:
        February 12, 2013 at 10:45 pm

        John also change his story he said that Trayvon wasn’t hitting Fogen just ” like pinning him down”.

        Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:33 pm

        @bettykath

        And without GZ on the stand explaining his near death experience, it is just 2 minor cuts on the back of his head and some blood on his nose. I’m sure the prosecution will show the photos taken at the police station with a proper camera and good lighting, just a couple of hours after the incident.

        I looked a lot worse after I fell off my bike. The road rash above my lip was terrible. He doesn’t have that at all.

        Reply
    • Operacarla says:
      February 12, 2013 at 8:34 pm

      “And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.”

      Can we be sure that an expert will be able to show who was screaming, who else can be heard and what they were saying? I am so looking forward to hearing that! Justice for Trayvon!

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 12, 2013 at 11:15 pm

        I haven’t been able to distinguish the two different voices on my computer, although I have heard several different posters say that they can hear the second voice, (BDLR also mentioned a second voice at one of the hearings), and I imagine the State has much better equipment to enhance the recording better than many of us.

        Also, before the second voice on the tape was ‘discovered’ a question that seemed to be asked quite frequently was…
        If Trayvon was smothering Fogen while bashing his head against the cement, how could the screams be so long and uninterrupted?

        Reply
    • SearchingMind says:
      February 13, 2013 at 2:33 am

      Betty, Mara doesn’t get it. You know, someone has to testify: ‘I feared for my life and fired my firearm’ or ‘something to that effect. Someone has to claim, ‘Trayvon punched the defendant, broke his nose, got on top of him, started straddling him, bashing his head repeatedly on the concrete sidewalk, covered his mouth and nose, rained down blows to his face and head, went for his gun’, etc., or ‘something to that effect. This is the core of the defendant’s self-defense story. No other person can testify to these but the defendant alone. O’Mara/counsel cannot put such forward for the defendant.

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 13, 2013 at 12:05 pm

        You’re right, of course. I was exploring MOM’s comment that self-defense could be shown by the evidence without the defendant testifying. Unless there’s something I/we missed, the only evidence is the medical stuff and that just proves a scuffle between the defendant and some bushes and his gun.

        Reply
    • Tommy's Mom says:
      February 13, 2013 at 11:13 am

      Great points. I’d like to know more about the grass on Z’s jacket that one of the first responders saw,when in the pictures taken at LE station shows no grass or stains on Z’s jacket.

      Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:40 am

        Tim Smith told Serino that GZ had grass/rain on his back as if he’d been on his back but I don’t remember anyone else saying it?
        I think that comment was meant to set up the cover story and let serino in on plan, and serino perpetuated it by adding it to his narrative..

        did anyone else say anything about it, like in a report?
        did the forensics come back on gz’s clothing? and did it mention any dirt on the jacket or pants? does anyone know?

        Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 13, 2013 at 4:18 pm

      Waving the bloody photos around and interpreting the forensics in Fogen’s favor, I would think. Taking his “Okay” statement at face value. Fogen’s statements that Trayvon looked like he was up to no good. There’s not much else they’ve got to prove self-defense. IANAL, so just my two cents – I think if Fogen doesn’t testify at a self-defense hearing, we’re going to see pretty much what we’ve been seeing all along.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:19 pm

        Oh, and there are one or two witness statements that might be in his favor- or were, in the original versions.

        Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:48 pm

        @Two sides. If I understand correctly, O’Mara can only enter the photos of GZ’s head and nose by placing Wagner and Jon on the witness stand because they took them. Then, the State has opportunity to cross-examine and call their witness who took the photos in the police station. The EMT who said that GZ’s face was 45 percent covered with blood can be called by the defense, but Wagner’s photo refutes that assessment.

        On cross, the State will be able to ask if GZ pointed out where his head was purportedly bashed so that evidence could be taken. The EMT may also be asked if there was any debris on GZ’s head or if samples were taken to test for debris.

        Then, there needs to be an expert witness to address blood splatter and the rivulets.

        The judge then gets to see both sets of photos — before and after clean-up, and hear testimony to see if it agrees with the evidence.

        The problem for O’Mara is that none of his witnesses, neither the photos, can answer whether the boo-boo’s were life-threatening. Only GZ can testify as to his reasonable belief that they were.

        Thus, if he takes the stand, prosecutors should introduce questions to confirm that before he killed Trayvon, GZ removed his head from the concrete, and that the punch that purportedly broke his nose was the alleged first physical action. Therefore, the punch neither the boo-boos justified killing Trayvon in retaliation thereafter because GZ was no longer in danger of having his head further bashed on concrete.

        Then comes the DNA evidence — Trayvon didn’t lay a hand on GZ.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 8:30 am

          Don’t forget the swollen broken nose photo at the scene and the nose all healed up in the station a few hours later. That has got to make the judge go Hmmmm… No?

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:36 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            Don’t forget the swollen broken nose photo at the scene and the nose all healed up in the station a few hours later. That has got to make the judge go Hmmmm… No?

            Along with the physician assistant’s medical report that fails to substantiate any serious injury, and referral to an ENT for the nose that GZ did not follow-up on.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 15, 2013 at 8:51 am

            Let’s try a little mind game, eh?

            Let’s say I show a picture of a man with a gaping wound in his leg, with a compound fracture all messy and bloody, and the picture is labeled 3PM 1/1/11

            Now I have another picture to show of the same man all healed up in a bathing suit, sipping a martini and nary a wound or drop of blood in sight. No scar on the leg etc. nothing. Now this picture is labeled 4PM 1/1/11.

            Now, let’s assume that these time stamps are absolutely, demonstrably true!

            Question: What must we believe about what these pictures depict?

            —–>Answers here, take as much space as you need:

          • Xena says:
            February 15, 2013 at 1:52 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            Answers here, take as much space as you need:

            If the photo taken at 3 PM is true, then the one taken at 4 PM is not true. If the photo taken at 4 PM is true, then the one taken at 3 PM is not true. IMO, rather than examining the wounds in the photos, the face and demeanor of the person should be examined.

            If the photo taken at 3 PM shows the person all bloody, but on his phone, then he could not have been concerned about the injuries. If the photo taken at 4 PM shows a relaxed person, then I would opt to believe that the 4 PM photo is the most significant.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 16, 2013 at 1:50 pm

            Try again, this time remember, the only thing verified about both pictures is the time stamps.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 15, 2013 at 2:10 pm

            I believe in the “…less is more….” and “…economy of words…” line of thinking.
            Now you said take as much space as I need…..bad idea….

            He

            Lied !!

            That do it ???

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 16, 2013 at 2:23 pm

            Ah, I probably should have copied the post this one was in reference to. We’re drifting away from the point.

            The point was, if the time stamps on the pictures is true, then what the pictures depict cannot both be true. Because a gaping compound fracture cannot heal in an hour. So there was either no fracture and that picture depicts a false wound, or the second picture is merely a copy of a picture taken before there was a wound.

            If O’Mara is going to try to use the picture of GZ in the police car with the swollen nose, then he has to show that the picture at the police station is fake. Both pictures cannot be true. But the picture at the station has the better chain of custody. Meaning that of the two photos, the picture at the station without the swollen nose will be admitted and the other one discarded. O’Mara will have no evidence of injury to GZ’s nose other than GZ’s self serving testimony as a known liar.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 16, 2013 at 6:59 pm

            Those 2 pictures have 0 proof as to chain of evidence custody. In NJ here, neither would even be mentioned as evidence. The police station pictures have a documented chain and from day 1 I’ve stated O’ Mara will have a real problem with the alleged crime scene pictures AND the story that nobody had a camera to take his picture…..BS on that.

            You got it…how do his alleged injuries heal in an hour…….still interested in that bridge ??

            I guess FogenPhoole thinks he can sell ice to Eskimo’s from the witness stand on that one….

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 17, 2013 at 4:15 pm

            You got it…how do his alleged injuries heal in an hour…….still interested in that bridge ??

            Look for MOM to have Dr McCoy standing by with a tricorder! LOL!!!

          • racerrodig says:
            February 17, 2013 at 5:12 pm

            When O’ Mara pulls some stunt like that I’ll stick with Scotty when he says “…but there’s no intelligent life here….” pointing at O’ Mara

      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:48 am

        You’ve got a much better grasp of legal procedure than me! I’m learning, but still confused about what is admissable and what is not.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:34 pm

        TS, you’re not the only one confused about admissablilty.

        I also don’t understand how some of Fogen’s statements can’t be entered in unless he testifies. If I understand correctly, it would only be his statements that go toward his defense.

        Miranda rights state ‘anything you say, can and will be, used against you in a court of law,’ then assuming that, they can use anything you ‘say’ against you to ‘prove’ the crime, if I understand that correctly. Then, OTOH, wouldn’t they use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? I guess I don’t get it.

        Rules of Admissibility 101 by the Professor would be awesome!

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:12 pm

        Edited post above:
        Then, OTOH, wouldn’t the defense be able to use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? Not much in Fogen’s case, imo, but I guess I don’t get how ‘admissability’ from prosecution or defense works, as it seems the rules are different for both, if I understand correctly.

        Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        February 15, 2013 at 10:52 am

        @Kimmi, the defense cannot bring any of gz’s own self serving statements, only the state can bring in his statements against him because he’s the party opponent.

        Prof did a whole post about hearsay and admissible statements about 2-3 weeks ago. i’m not organized enough to fetch it, maybe someone else knows which one it is. but it’s safe to say gz cannot benefit from any of his statements unless he testifies!

        Reply
    • William Walton says:
      February 13, 2013 at 4:27 pm

      BettyKath, as you stated that GZ stated that he had TM in a wrist lock which is described as being very painful. Therefore, my just being a scientist, my question is that with TM being immobilized, GZ being larger and more sturdy, did GZ have to take perfect aim such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. With TM immobilized, GZ could have moved his left hand over to the right side of TM’s hoodied. So the question becomes: Why Didn’t he. Or, is the senario much like I stated in the past in that both were standing with TM trying to get away and GZ trying to restrain him. Just a Thought

      Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 3:29 pm

      Oh “showing self-defense” without Fogen testifying is a waste of time and money and O’Mara knows it but he’s got to do something, now hasn’t he?

      He’ll put on a police witness, perhaps Ayala. He’ll ask why Ayala didn’t try to get Fogen charged weith a crime. Ayala will say it looked like a clear-cut self-defense case. They’ll show pictures. They’ll whine about a broken nose. They’ll carry on. On cross-examination Ayala will admit that he has no real way of knowing anything (he’s not gonna risk HIS hide for the thing) and then the judge will say, “denied.” All without saying terribly bad things about poor Fogen, mind you, so as to not get another recusal scene revved up.

      Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:09 am

        Malisha it’s not fair to waste so many resources and time on an immunity hearing using that ( i’ll admit pretty clever ) example you stated! BDLR wouldn’t have opportunity to sling gz and his lies around the court room for all to see!
        So I OBJECT TO THAT DIRTY TACTIC on the bases of Prosecution’s insufficient access to gz!

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 15, 2013 at 6:21 pm

          Where O’ Mara gets he needs 2 weeks for an Immunity Hearing is beyond any scope of logic. If FogenPhoole does not testify they have virtually nothing to present. If he does the State could drag it out by incessant cross…..like they want to go down that road??

          An Immunity Hearing is sometimes only a 1/2 day or so. The longest I ever saw was 2 days. It’s real simple.

          Reply
    • gblock says:
      February 15, 2013 at 4:12 am

      bettykath,

      I would think that it would be very fair for the prosecution to ask about broken nose x-rays.

      It seems to me that the autopsy report and the screams would not be useful for the defense to present, and probably not needed for the prosecution to present, at the self-defense hearing.

      Reply
  156. ay2z says:
    February 12, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Faith in eye witnesses, open thread is a good time to pots this interesting scenario.

    Reply
    • Malisha says:
      February 14, 2013 at 3:26 pm

      Check out the woman who kept eating her spaghetti as it happened; she’d be a real danger to Fogen, you betcha!

      Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        February 16, 2013 at 3:34 pm

        Says a lot about human nature, eh? Even having the safety of numbers, no one steps in to help.

        Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 17, 2013 at 5:57 am

        But apparently that is part of human nature. If there is only one person there who could help, they would be more likely to do it. With others there not helping, it is less likely that one person will step out and do it.

        Reply
  157. LLMPapa says:
    February 12, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Uh…O’Mara best be careful. No telling what might pop up on a surveillance vid with the right equipment, LOL

    [IMG]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZClubhouseFilter.jpg[/IMG]

    Reply
    • LLMPapa says:
      February 12, 2013 at 1:53 pm

      Sorry bout that. Here’s a direct link.

      Reply
      • Tzar says:
        February 12, 2013 at 1:57 pm

        I have always wondered why nothing came of that ghostly bald face on the clubhouse door

        Reply
      • tonydphotog says:
        February 12, 2013 at 3:59 pm

        Wow! I had come to the conclusion that the ghostly image was just light reflecting off of a pole!

        Great job!!!

        Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:58 pm

        LOL@LLMPapa!! You know, Amsterdam analyzed the clubhouse videos and for one room, pointed out seeing the reflection of GZ’s face. When I saw it, I felt as if I was watching a horror movie. I generally don’t see much of what others do in the clubhouse videos, but I surely saw that.

        Reply
      • Judy75201 says:
        February 12, 2013 at 6:39 pm

        Haha awesome

        Reply
      • lsimon3321 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:42 am

        Finally, an opportunity to tell you what a genius I think you are. You are amazing. I watch all of your YouTube videos almost as fast as you can put them out. I hope the prosecutor is watching them also.

        Reply
      • abbyj says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:59 am

        @LLMPapa, Your videos have been a constant and unwavering voice of reason speaking for Trayvon from the grave. I’ve long wanted to thank you for the gift of each one. Powerful and moving, they are uncompromising in exposing the raft of lies that fogen and his crowd have promoted to justify the murder of a child. Thank you for your videos, and I look forward to the next.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:59 pm

        Same here, Papa, you do an awesome job! Thank you!

        Reply
  158. Trained Observer says:
    February 12, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    SpecialladyT — Do you have any insight on what surveillance from Sam’s Club, Kohl’s parking lot or Lake’s Edge Apartments has to do with Trayvon’s murder?

    Reply
    • onlyiamunitron says:
      February 12, 2013 at 1:34 pm

      Aren’t they all on his possible route back from the 7-11?

      unitron

      Reply
    • racerrodig says:
      February 12, 2013 at 4:52 pm

      O’ Mara was looking to see if Trayvon tried to steal any cars that are on the way there or home. He also wanted the video of a car dealership.

      Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm

        You know, something like that did actually cross my mind–since his entire case plan seems to rest on finding some way to prove that Trayvon was never any good and deserved to die.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 5:15 pm

          When he first asked for those videos it was all over that’s what he was looking for. I firmly believe they were looking to see if Trayvon tried to open a car door along the way home.

          How did that work out ??

          This latest Motion I believe is a message to the Judge telling her Fogen asked for this, not I.

          2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in discovery…..

          Huhhhhhhhh ?? That’s the first time we’ve seen that stated and why?

          Reply
      • kllypyn says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:23 pm

        It’s highly doubtful he went anywhere near those places they are way out of his way.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 5:35 pm

          Not in the parking lots…along the route home. The cameras cover parts of the street he was walking on. Remember, he’s desperate.

          Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:55 pm

        FDLE went over those videos and found there was no relevant information. OTOH, they did find and enter the clubhouse videos and the M&I Bank video into discovery.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 6:38 pm

          Funny how every angle the defense takes dies a quick, quiet death. I just hate when that happens.

          I’ll take “Incompetent, Unethical, Desperate Lawyers” for $5,000.00 Alex !!

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 12, 2013 at 7:00 pm

            @racerrodig. It appears that each time the State turns over discovery that is not beneficial to GZ, O’Mara responds by asking for something silly that has no bearing on what the State provided. It’s GZ’s nature to toss forth garbage as the evidence that convicts him, that he cannot explain away, piles high.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 8:03 pm

            How high do you think that pile is now…..50 foot??

          • Xena says:
            February 12, 2013 at 8:30 pm

            @racerrodig.

            How high do you think that pile is now…..50 foot??

            Well, let’s see;
            Forensic evidence = 100 ft.
            Physical evidence = 100 ft.
            ME’s Report = 100 ft.
            Clubhouse videos = 100 ft.
            GZ’s Phone Records = 100 ft.
            Debris lab report = 100 ft.

            GZ’s voice captured on the 911 call cursing Trayvon as Trayvon screams in pain, fear, and for help= 100 ft.

            FBI investigation report that Trayvon did not enter that gated community by Taaffe’s house = 100 ft.

            None of GZ’s and Zidiot distractions can erase this evidence.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 9:15 pm

            I’ll take “Underestimating Evidence” for $1,000.00 Alex.

          • Xena says:
            February 12, 2013 at 9:22 pm

            Which goes to show why BDLR said at the last hearing that he doesn’t know why the defense needs expert witnesses.

          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 10:30 pm

            The grass fertilizer made Fogens nose runny and gave him something called “Triggerpullitise”

          • Xena says:
            February 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm

            @racerrodig.

            The grass fertilizer made Fogens nose runny and gave him something called “Triggerpullitise”

            Oh yeah. That is why Smith allowed GZ to clean up after arriving in the police station because the smell of the fertilizer was horrible. 🙂

      • grey winter sky says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:46 pm

        Racer & Xena, As the trial date comes closer and closer, and the defense is becoming more and more desperate, I think that it would be fun and creative to try to come up with various requests and excuses that the defense might try to use. Heck, we might even help the pathetic fogen team along by giving them a few ideas………..just like the outhousers do…… 😈

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm

          @grey winter sky

          …and the defense is becoming more and more desperate, I think that it would be fun and creative to try to come up with various requests and excuses that the defense might try to use.

          Okay. Here’s one;
          O’Mara: “Your honor, it’s impossible for our client to get a fair trial. There are internet bloggers and even Discovery ID has aired a program saying that the defendant is guilty.”

          BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 9:31 pm

            “BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”

            O’ Mara “That suits my client just fine your Honor”

            BDLR “I really don’t think the defendant really comprehends what has transpired you Honor, not in the least”

            O’ Mara “Oh he does your Honor”

            BDLR “The State has no objections then

            O’ Mara “Oh good then…..my client has this “Get out of Jail Free” card and would like to redeem it now your honor”

            BDLR “I just knew it.FogenPhuckingPhoole…..typical”

          • Xena says:
            February 12, 2013 at 9:55 pm

            @racerrodig.

            BDLR “I just knew it.FogenPhuckingPhoole…..typical”

            LOL!! And then West stands to argue with the judge until she says, “For the third time ….”

          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 10:27 pm

            That was great on Tuesday…..for the 3rd time…..now it’s time out for you.

        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 9:21 pm

          Some of us have already done that on HP !! It’s a gas how a Zidiot will take the prompt and run with it. what Phoole’sFogenPhollowers are.

          Stealing cars, stolen jewelry, accidental discharge, Trayvon luring Fogen……anything is possible with the Zidiot Nation.

          Reply
      • Lynn says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm

        @racerrodig
        http://tinyurl.com/atu52tz
        Fogen was involving himself in discovery in the request for school records back on Oct 5th. Could have earlier but I do see it here.

        Reply
      • Tee says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:11 pm

        You know how crazy that is, If he thinks that, this man needs his head examined. Why would Trayvon attempt to steal a car when he got his little brother at home waiting for him? It’s stupid to even make that a possibility, he got to be playing games. I think he’s just trying to stall. Trayvon was staying with his dad, do MOM, knw anything about black dads! lol apparently not.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 12, 2013 at 9:27 pm

          @Tee. So, GZ changes his testimony to;
          “Uh. I said he was looking at houses but what I meant was that he was looking at cars.”

          Reply
          • racerrodig says:
            February 12, 2013 at 9:54 pm

            Yep…he was looking between all the cars and I saw him by the mail schruck, did I say mailboxes…..my bad……it was the mail schruck.

        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 9:45 pm

          Moron O’ Mara, that says it all. When the request for CCTV from those stores was filed, the Zidiots were right on O’ Mara said Trayvon was involved in an auto theft ring. Riiiiiiight !!

          Reply
      • Lynn says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:57 am

        Did anyone notice the request for Kohl’s specified 3pm-8pm? The rest just asked for the tapes from that day. The Bank is beside Kohl’s.

        There are car dealers across from those places. What does lifting a door handle prove if that’s what they’re after? My husband and I have car shopped/browsed and he’ll try the door. Sometimes they’re open and he wants to see the interior. Oooo…so criminal! Trayvon might have been dreaming about his first car like every teenager has. Not unheard of.

        Sam’s Club is right beside the 7-11. On google maps it places it
        many stores away from where it actually is. If you go to streetview on google maps you will see you drive just feet away from the 7-11 as you enter the Sam’s parking lot from Rineheart.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 5:37 pm

          He’s chasing shadows…and wasting time. If he’s giving FogenPhoole a glimmer of hope with this, he’ll be crying soon.

          Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:07 pm

        The Treethumper stumpers claim that Trayvon supporters started that rumor and that we’re trying to pull something with it.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 7:29 pm

          They say that because it failed. They started that months ago and shortly after O’ Mara asked for the videos. They seem to forget that they are so predictable it’s a laugh riot from this side of the fence.

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 8:09 am

          Okay, I think I’m getting at what’s been bugging me about those three guys who “coincidentally” show up at 711, by car, just as Trayvon is getting ready to leave. Here’s the video: http://tinyurl.com/che8csw

          Of course there are other videos of the 711, as I come across them again I’ll put them at this link as well.

          Note how they come in hiding their faces? They try to appear discrete about it, but they’re covering their faces none-the-less. Is that Ranesburg with the sunglasses? At night? What’s with that eh?

          Now get this, he removes his hat and makes quite a show of unfurling and showing his braids. I read that as a hair/braids fetish. But, unless he comes down to 711 either every day or on Sundays, to display his hair on their cctv, then why is he doing it on this Sunday? You wouldn’t suspect that he has a reason to believe the video taken this night, will be of particular interest to the world?

          As far as anyone should know, this cctv video taken that night, should not even be of interest to the security firm that stores the videos. So, unless someone knows something, there’s no reason at all to “perform” for the camera that night. As far as anyone should know, there’s no reason to make sure that you’re center camera all by your lonesome. So, why even bother unless you think that somehow this video has a possibility of being of interest to someone later on? If it is going to be of interest to anyone later on, it would have to be because it involves Trayvon. Meaning, to treat this time as anything special, you have to have knowledge that something is planned for Trayvon that night. Even if you don’t know exactly what, you need to know something, unless that is, you go around to the stores making this kind of performance for the cctv’s all the time.
          But then, why hide your face?

          Ranisberg is also noted for wearing white tee shirts. Ring any bells? Someone came running north seconds after the fatal shot was fired, a man in a white tee shirt is seen on the body, and there was probably another person somewhere in the area, after all the Ranisberg group involved three, him and two cohorts. Likely GZ knew these guys, he lives close enough and they’re thieves. GZ could very well have been using these guys, after all, GZ has useful connects with the police. As with all such arrangements, it’s not to far gone to imagine that something might have gone wrong with the relationship. GZ, fearing that someone knows something and can expose him, is threatening to get someone, Ranesburg might have decided to feed him Trayvon instead.

          Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.

          Okay, waaaaay to many suppositions here, waaaay to much conjecture and guess work, all there is, is a very gossamer thread that isn’t very clear itself. But, that said, it’s still a decent hunch, so let’s keep an eye out in case something else is discovered. Maybe these bones will pick up some flesh. It’s not totally out of the realm that they might.

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            February 14, 2013 at 1:50 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            GZ, fearing that someone knows something and can expose him, is threatening to get someone, Ranesburg might have decided to feed him Trayvon instead.

            Since learning that GZ went into hiding after leaving the police station, it’s been my impression that he feared someone other than anyone associated with Trayvon. Capturing Trayvon was part of a plan to get someone else out of trouble with the cops, and my thoughts were on Burgess. It is likely it involved GZ’s band of thieves. GZ didn’t want the cops coming to his house and I continue associating whatever he moved out that night with the $135 that he spent at the post office while living with Osterman.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 15, 2013 at 9:12 am

            Good theorizing. All the pieces I have to this puzzle are still in the blender, so giving me pieces of other theories and evidence to put in the blender works. I’m with you along the lines that TM had some, as yet unknown utility to GZ and Ransberg in the Burgess mess, and is somehow tied to the pricey bit of mailing GZ did.

            I also just noted that TM leaves the 711 almost half a minute or more, but waits outside before the car pulls up, presumably with that crew inside. Meaning that TM was waiting for them and he expected them to arrive. This was, then, no chance or coincidental meeting! Trayvon, as I suspected, had been lured from home.

            Now I need those other 711 camera angles to review. But if that car that comes almost half a minute after TM leaves the store, was the car with those boys inside, Trayvon should have been on his way back home, not waiting outside for people who he didn’t know and was not intending to meet.

          • Xena says:
            February 15, 2013 at 2:02 pm

            @Lonnie Starr. My first impression is that Trayvon stood outside the 7-Eleven because of the rain. Now, think about this. He walked to the store. One of GZ’s gang could have seen Trayvon walking in R@TL, leaving it, and walking down that road to the store. They may have needed to communicate with GZ, and were instructed to go to where Trayvon was. Meanwhile, there’s a man at M&I Bank at the ATM around the same time that Trayvon enters and the leaves the 7-Eleven.

            GZ’s phone records are what is going to reveal his communications before he called NEN to report a suspicious person. For the 2nd degree murder charge, it will provide evidence that GZ did not casually leave his home to go grocery shopping.

      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:52 pm

        Lonnie Starr says:
        February 14, 2013 at 8:09 am

        “Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.”

        Wait, whoa, IIRC, I never heard anything about GZ losing a $3000 laptop. I thought that was a neighbors/someone else at RTL?

        I need to learn how to do the gray-box shadowing for quotes.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 6:58 pm

          That was just a remark that perhaps, maybe, the real intended fence for that stolen laptop was GZ. The laptop that Emmanuel Burgess was busted for. It has to do with claims/speculation that GZ was using NW as a cover for a theft ring, which allowed him to case the neighborhood.

          Burgess stole the 3,000 dollar laptop, it winds up in Ransburgs backpack. When the police find it there, Burgess claims it and get’s carted off to jail while Ransburg is let go. So, what if Ransburg knew GZ? Possible? GZ doesn’t have much in the way of income, so one has to wonder what his internet/ebay activity shows, eh? Maybe GZ was promised the laptop, but Ransberg has to tell GZ that someone stole it, then later that month he points out TM as the thief. Something like that. Could those be the questions Taaffe says TM should have answered?

          Reply
          • Deborah Garner Moore says:
            February 14, 2013 at 8:17 pm

            @Lonnie:

            Your post makes a lot of sense to me. Remember during the 911 phone call Trayvon was screaming and one of his screams was this, ‘I don’t know them!’ I kept saying to myself, what was Fogen questioning him about? Why was he screaming that he did not know them? Who is them? Reading your post? That could be what Fogen was questioning TM about. Tray didn’t know “them” and he had no reason too.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            February 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm

            Ah yes, I remember that. Another piece of data to pop into my “blender”. I’ve got a lot of messages to work through, then I’m going to go back and take another look at the other 711 videos. See if you can capture the file with that remark in it or post the link. I’ve probably got it somewhere but this will speed things up. thanks.

      • lurker says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:55 pm

        OK, Lonnie. Time to fill some of the rest of us in. Personally, I tend to stick to looking for horses when I hear hooves, rather than zebras, but, I watched the video you linked. Does appear as though Trayvon hung around a bit–and those 3 guys were certainly bizarre in their get-up. I thought I might have caught the words security-cam in the convo with the clerk. But–who on earth is Ranisberg and what’s this about a $3,000 laptop?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 7:12 pm

          OH? You haven’t read about Emmanuel Burgess and his Feb 7th arrest? He had been spotted hanging around this woman’s townhouse when her 3k laptop was stolen. The police came a few days later when someone called in that guys who met the description were hanging around. The found the laptop in Dude Ransburgs backpack, but Burgess claimed the stolen laptop as his. So the police took him and let the other guys go.

          Ransberg is a white guy who hangs with three blacks. On that Sunday however, Burgess was in jail, so Rainsberg would only have two black guys with him. Looks to me like that’s who we see in the 711, what a coincidence eh?

          Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:47 am

        Lonnie,

        If someone is wearing a cap over lots of hair, it can easily get to feel too hot (especially if it was quite a bit warmer inside the store) or uncomfortable for some other reason. That’s the most likely reason that he shook it out.

        As for some of the other things you said: do you actually have any reason to believe that is Rainsberg (or however it is spelled – you spelled it several different ways) and his friends, other than speculation based on the races of the young men? Anything at all placing them at the site of the shooting – after all, white t-shirts are not exactly rare items? And I don’t get your point about the 7-11 video – if they knew something was going to happen between GZ and Trayvon that night, why would that want to make one of them want to “perform” for the camera?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 15, 2013 at 7:13 pm

          Stores in Florida are generally not heated but air conditioned. At 60 degrees they turn the air conditioning off. Florescent lights don’t generate much heat. I don’t have the spelling of Ranesburgs name down yet, I’ve too much to do to catch up but I eventually hope to.

          You have, of course, noted that I say this is speculation that I haven’t yet put in order or confirmed? Fine, but I doubt that guy’s reason for taking off his hat and showing his braided hair was because it was hot in the store, look at the video, he has only just come in.

          No, I can’t say this is Ranesburg, because we don’t have any pictures of him. All we know about him from the records is that he is a white guy who travels with three black guys, one of whom is Burgess, who is at that time in jail. So now this guy is traveling with two black guys, it kinda makes sense that it’s him, of course I could be wrong, but then. Consider that Burgess and the boys live pretty close to where Trayvon is staying and close to GZ as well. They are thieves and I’m pretty sure they’ve crossed paths with GZ.

          So, other than that, so far all we can do is weave theories that help us discover what other evidence needs to be searched for.

          But, I’m going to guess that it’s a good bet that these three are the ones that hung out with Burgess and that they’ve probably caused TM to come to the store for a meeting somehow. So, that will be one of my working theories.

          Reply
      • gblock says:
        February 15, 2013 at 3:50 am

        Also, I checked the video again, and the guy with the long braids is wearing a gray jersey, not a white t-shirt.

        Reply
      • rnewton32 says:
        February 17, 2013 at 10:53 am

        Well which is it Fogen. Was Trayvon trying to break into houses (@ 7pm mind you when everyone would be home watching the game–not a senior cat burglar) or was he trying to break into and steal used cars? Funny how the defense only focuses on demonizing the victim when they should focus on the forensics (which would be the heart of a stand your ground self defense); But whoops I forgot, it wasn’t self defense, it was murder. Their only option is to taint the jury to get them to believe that Trayvon deserved to die. I guess Fogen and his team forgot that is God’s decision.

        Reply
    • Chocolate Diva says:
      February 13, 2013 at 6:23 am

      Trained Observer ~ The reason for the Sam Club and Kohl survelliance is because one of GZ supporters Nettles 18 email O’mara and told him to look into it. They think Trayvon was getting ready to break into a car there. I seen some of his supporters mention it on the debate page. I’m like you I don’t see what it have to do with Trayvon murder.

      Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 6:44 am

        That broad, nettles18, is a Canadian and her name is Annette Kelly. From reading her posts on the debate page, she spends most of her free time digging up dirt and personal information on Tracy, Sybrina, aunts, uncles, all the children, Trayvon and anyone who is connected to the family. She is obsessed with this case and spews the Conservative SHIThouse crap all day long. She is the one who spilled the beans about O’Mara asking the “masses” to do HIS investigations for him. She needs her head examined!

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:09 pm

        AK is intelligent enough to communicate in an articulate way, but not smart enough to see the light in this case. Probably has a black man fear, IMHO. She is one of those Treeper Stumpers who continually finds fault with the Martin family.

        Reply
      • Xena says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:36 am

        Crazy behind Zidiots think up all types of conspiracy theories when none of them prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense. If they would get off their bigoted racist horse maybe they will see that even their thugification of Trayvon does not help GZ. Rather, it drives in the inference that GZ’s supporters believe that he committed a racial hate-crime.

        Junior isn’t helping either by his failure to publicly disagree with Randy Hahn.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm

        Should be entertaining to see Jr on Bill Maher on HBO tonight.
        I don’t have HBO, so if someone could share it with us, that would be great! I want to see Bill rip Jr up!

        Reply
      • Dan Q. Smith says:
        February 15, 2013 at 12:57 am

        Fogen projects. If Fogen himself was involved in thievery, this would explain him and his defense team projecting it on Trayvon..

        Reply
    • SpecialladyT says:
      February 13, 2013 at 6:29 am

      I just replied to Xena’s post that the State never turned over any video’s of those locations. I read in discovery that the FDLE never admitted video’s from those locations because they were reviewed by the FDLE and they didn’t find anything of relevance on them.

      SpecialladyT says:
      February 13, 2013 at 6:24 am
      Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!

      Reply
      • Chocolate Diva says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:30 am

        Speciallady T ~ That woman need her a MAN or a DILDO or something. She’s an old lonely and confused woman with no kids. She doesn’t have a life. They worship her on that debate page they think she always right never wrong. She is one of the many DUMBA$$ that be sending GZ money.

        Reply
        • SpecialladyT says:
          February 13, 2013 at 7:53 am

          rotflmao!!!

          Oh, you don’t have to tell me, everyone knows she’s a whack job!!!

          I am quite certain she will fly from Canada to the Florida State Penn to visit fogen when he is sentenced. After Shellie finally smartens up and dumps fogen’s ass she will then propose to that killer and he will accept. 😉

          Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 7:56 am

        P.S. I believe her donations are on auto-pay. lolololol

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 9:43 am

        Speciallady T ~ That woman need her a MAN or a DILDO or something.

        Hmmm? I don’t like this type of argument, I would imagine a women can have sex all day long and it doesn’t make her one bit more wise or normal if she has a mental tendency. At least I am not aware of such a therapy.

        Are you aware this is one of the standard misogynic or sexist arguments? I am always a bit baffled when I see women using it. or are two actually male?

        But yes, I noticed too that quite a few ladies over at the nutters seem to sprout the most racist nonsense.

        Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:16 am

        Just want to echo leander. I have been hit with that kind of mess on other sites by people who disagree and run out of logical or factual arguments. I say leave the insults alone–particularly when they make ugly assumptions about personal matters.

        Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:35 am

        I wasn’t the one who suggested that this nut need toys, p.s. I’m all set. 🙂

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        February 13, 2013 at 4:14 pm

        I don’t see any reason to stoop to personal attacks and name-calling. It’s enough to speculate in a civil way.

        Reply
      • lsimon3321 says:
        February 15, 2013 at 1:01 am

        @Two Sides To A Story: Those GZ supporters are vicious. I have one in particular on YT that goes by xroosterxx. I will make a comment on someone else’s video and he will resort to the LOL!!” every 4 words and has lately taken to calling me a bitch and questioning my intelligence and how TM supporters all take the position of being persecuted while they are the ones stating that fogen is being railroaded. This wo/man has taken to going through my photos on FB and mentioned my niece and nephews, my FB name and the last place that he could figure my age. It takes all I’ve got not to kick out at this particular dog. It is not easy. I have to remind myself to not fall away from the known facts and not be steered into his lane. I do perceive this one in particular to be dangerous. I wanted to mention this b/c it obviously upset me when he mentioned my niece/nephews.

        Reply
  159. jm says:
    February 12, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    follow

    Reply
  160. SpecialladyT says:
    February 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Documents just released by GZLegal

    Click to access discovery_demand_3_videos.pdf

    Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      February 12, 2013 at 1:24 pm

      The defense also seeks any voice recordings of Trayvon from witness 8 http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/motion_std_witness_8.pdf

      Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm

        This one sounds like O’Mara is going to attempt voice recognition on the screams on the 911 tapes. Gotta wonder about this one. Seems like the state is going with the FBI analysis which says nothing conclusive. It would seem that any further analysis using Trayvon’s voice is either going to come up similarly inconclusive, or a match with Trayvon. Seems like a can of worms better left alone, IMHO.

        Reply
      • kllypyn says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm

        He knows darn well who that is screaming. he might as well give it a rest. His own client knows he wasn’t the one screaming. he may not want to go there.

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm

          He won’t go there, it’s all about ………..

          2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in the discovery process…..

          I think O’ Mara is telling the Judge he has no control over his client.

          I believe O’ Mara may be planning his exit strategy as per the Professors blog last week.

          I believe this is a way of telling the Judge “…..hey, this wasn’t my idea…….it’s FogenPhoole calling the shots”

          I believe Fogen is unhappy with present counsel and is trying to tell the Zidiot Nation I’m in control and we’ll get it done my way.

          I don’t think it’s about “what” it’s about “who” as we all know Fogen wants Positive Press. He has to save face coming out of that court room whopping he took last week. I’d say someone pointed out to him how dejected he looked.

          Reply
      • towerflower says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:07 pm

        I wondering what teen saves voice messages from 3 yrs ago and for that matter did she even own the same phone 3 yrs ago?

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:13 am

        Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery

        racerrodig, I noticed this special phrase in the motion concerning the credit card details the first time, if I remember correctly. Would be interesting to take a closer look. Maybe since watching these videos is time consuming, ask Whonoze and Amsterdam, Fogen offered to do this, just as he is the one that wants to know more about the “three stooges”. But I am not sure, if I simply did not pay much attention in earlier motions. Take a look at all recent motions and watch if the phrase only surfaces in a few or if it is a standard.

        Now I have to leave for good for a while. I am relapsing. 😉

        Reply
    • lurker says:
      February 12, 2013 at 1:57 pm

      Does this actually require a court order? Seems like they are saying that what they got was blank. Wouldn’t a phone call suffice? Is there some reason to go through an additional court request?

      Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 2:07 pm

        A court request provides the paper trail that what they rec’d was blank. It bolsters MOM’s complaint that they aren’t getting discovery materials in a timely manner.

        I worked on system software project with high visibility and a very serious much watched deadline. The product was ready for shipment and the final tape was made for shipment. Just to be sure all i’s dotted and t’s crossed, the developer overseeing the production of the final tape said, “install it”. It wouldn’t install. A new tape was made and verified. I’m not sure what went wrong with that first tape but that those 2 words saved us all a lot of embarrassment.

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 12, 2013 at 2:26 pm

        I’d wait till it gets to trial and there is a response from the state because at the last few hearings, it turned out the defense were playing games

        Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 12, 2013 at 2:39 pm

        Bettykath–I get the paper trail, but it also seems like it is slowing the process down considerably. There is the time that went into the paperwork, and then the delay in waiting for the next court hearing date. Just thinking–if I were the judge, I would be annoyed. Unless there is some legal reason that O’Mara can’t go back to the source and say that the CDs were blank.

        Reply
      • bettykath says:
        February 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm

        The prosecution also gets a copy of the paperwork. Since the prosecution has kept everything formal they shouldn’t complain. They provide new copies and have them delivered asap. At the hearing MOM makes his point about the difficulty in getting discovery materials in a timely manner but the motion is moot b/c the materials were fiiiinnnnally delivered.

        As William pointed out, sometimes you do things to see if people actually read what you circulate. What the prosecution found out is that the defense has tried to look at the files. I’m not sure how valuable that information is though.

        Reply
      • Deborah Garner-Moore says:
        February 12, 2013 at 4:56 pm

        @lurker:
        What does MOM need a court order for? He knows good and well that those screams are not Fogen! Even my 5 year old grand-nephew can hear those screams. He heard my niece playing the tape, and he asked her,’ Mommy was is that boy screaming? What is going on?’ I had to explain to him what was going on age appropriate but he was not having it! He knew it was a serious deal with that boy in the tape screaming!! Out of the mouths of babes!

        They are the terrorized screams of a 17 year old black kid! Fogen would not be yelling for his mom, or stating, “I’m begging you! Mommmm! I don’t know!” Fogen even said it wasn’t him screaming because he knew it was not him! He said that to Serrino when Serrino tried to trick him during the interview remember?

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 12, 2013 at 5:05 pm

          I don’t think this is about what at all. It’s about “who”

          Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see

          “2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”

          I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots and Fogen wants his minions to know he’s not happy with present counsel. Didn’t then Professor have a blog about O’ Mara bailing last week ??

          Reply
      • lurker says:
        February 12, 2013 at 5:04 pm

        Deborah–I agree. I don’t see how that particular path is going to take him anywhere helpful. Like I said, and expert could either confirm it was Trayvon’s voice (not helpful for Z) or come out with another inconclusive finding–which doesn’t help him either. But–when did Z. say that it wasn’t him screaming? I thought he had pretty consistently claimed that he was calling for help but nobody would help.

        Reply
      • grey winter sky says:
        February 12, 2013 at 8:21 pm

        Deborah Garner-Moore…..Fogen didn’t JUST pull out his weapon (careful not to shoot his left hand), aim, and fire…..He HAD to have had his gun allready drawn and aiming it at Trayvon for Trayvon to have said “I’m begging you”….Trayvon was begging for his life as fogen interrogated him with his gun pointed at Trayvon. This is why I think that fogen had his gun out long before he said that he drew it.

        Reply
        • Deborah Garner Moore says:
          February 12, 2013 at 8:59 pm

          @lurker:

          It just breaks my heart to know that and to hear that boy begging for his life……Tray seeing that gun and Tray knowing that his life was about to end and Tray was trying to appeal to this man’s sense of morality not knowing that this man had no morality, values or scuples, and was a mad, unstable lunatic………I was in the Army and I know about having your gun in your hand already and you better be ready to use it, which you did, because you never knew when you would be ambushed. You had to have eyes in the back of your head, on the sides in addition to the ones you already have in the front of your face.

          What the hell is wrong with Fogen other than the obvious? Why would he have his gun out and pointed towards a teenage kid??? What was he trying to accomplish?? The Professor I believe, wrote in a thread that Fogen was crying at his hearing and that woman who babysits him was trying to hide him?? LOL! I have not re-watched it but if he was crying…….GOOD! His A$$ will be crying for a very long time! The magnitude and the enormity of what he did finally has come to him, and yet, he is still lying, plotting and deceiving!!!

          Reply
      • ay2z says:
        February 12, 2013 at 9:05 pm

        racerrodig said

        “Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see

        “2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”

        I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots…”

        He’s just making a the point that the defense (using the name of the client as normal) has involved himself with the discovery process– isn’t that an agreement signed by the defendant to agree to mutual discovery between the pros and the defense?

        Reply
      • Nefertari05 says:
        February 12, 2013 at 10:06 pm

        @Deborah Garner-Moore-

        It’s not just kids, either. My alpha male kitty has a strong protective instinct towards the kids in the family. He was cat-napping at the foot of my bed, last weekend, when I was listening to one of LLMPapa’s videos, on low volume, with the screams. He heard it, jumped up, flew across the bed, jumped up on the windowsill next to me, and started frantically pawing the windowpane to get outside.

        The only other time I’ve seen him do that was a couple years ago, in the summer when my niece fell down inthe backyard and she was screaming her head off.

        Even the animals instinctively understand those screams. I always trust the instincts of children and animals. They don’t have the need to rationalize things the way adults sometimes need to do.

        Reply
      • elcymoo says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:11 am

        I think that the prosecuting attorney explained during the last hearing that when he’d tried to provide information over the phone, etc., that information was taken out of context or distorted by the defense. I don’t blame him at all for deciding to pursue a more ‘formalistic’ approach, so that he has a paper trail to prove discovery, the date and the details.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm

        Re: Racerrodig’s comment:

        Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see

        “2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”

        I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots and Fogen wants his minions to know he’s not happy with present counsel.

        This is just preliminary, foundational language – like the paragraph about the killer being charged with 2nd degree murder. Part VI of the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure covers the discovery process. A defendant is not required to participate in discovery, but may elect to do so.

        After the filing of the charging document, a defendant may elect to participate in the discovery process provided by these rules, including the taking of discovery depositions, by filing with the court and serving on the prosecuting attorney a “Notice of Discovery” which shall bind both the prosecution and defendant to all discovery procedures contained in these rules. Participation by a defendant in the discovery process … shall be an election to participate in discovery and triggers a reciprocal discovery obligation for the defendant.

        Source: http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/tfblegalres.nsf/d64b801203bc919485256709006a561c/e1a89a0dc5248d1785256b2f006cccee

        Reply
        • racerrodig says:
          February 13, 2013 at 6:59 pm

          I just jumped the gun, but that is the 1st time I’ve ever seen that in all of the legal cases I’ve been involved in and it just looked strange.

          Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:55 am

        Here’s why I think O’Mara points out that Fogen is involving himself in discovery: O’Mara is setting up his NEXT motion which will be for more time because poor Fogen has a mental illness and cannot cooperate with his defense. See, O’Mara cannot continue discovery and prepare for trial if Fogen is out of commission sitting at home with a big depression and PTSD, see? He will “fit the criteria for PTSD” because (a) he had an experience that was life-threatening [when attacked savagely by Trayvon Martin, see?]; and (b) he has nightmares; and (c) he has an unnatural startle response; and (d) he cannot concentrate; and (e) he keeps reliving over and over the event that caused his PTSD and he keeps thinking his head is gonna explode; and (f) he feels intense fear, helplessness and horror; (g) he has flashbacks, gets triggered, and has intense distress; (h) his personal and familial relationships have been negatively affected; (i) he has avoidant and “blocking” experiences where he can’t face the situation or anything that reminds him of it; (j) he has memory problems as a result of his emotional defense of avoidance; (k) he suffers feelings of a foreshortened future; (l) he has feelings of detachment from others and depersonalization; (m) he has a restricted range of affect; (n) he is hypervigilant; (o) he has irritability and outbursts of anger; (p) he has a pronounced and crippling sleep disorder; (q) he has an eating disorder; and like, well, (r) he’s sort of all effed up and can’t cooperate with O’Mara in providing himself with an adequate defense so he is in danger of losing his constitutional rights to be presumed innocent and blah blah blah blah blah did I leave anything out?

        So a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a parambulist will all appear and convince Judge Nelson to put this off until Fogen’s children graduate college, and then we can resume — if the big bad black people still want to railroad Fogen at that point in time.

        You read it here first.

        Reply
    • Dave says:
      February 12, 2013 at 2:22 pm

      It took them a month to learn that these things were blank?

      Reply
      • roderick2012 says:
        February 12, 2013 at 4:54 pm

        Just like it took them months to realize that they couldn’t understand DeeDee and just mentioned it a few months ago.

        The ‘blank’ dvds are another stalling tactic.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 12, 2013 at 7:48 pm

        @Dave – That was my first thought, too!! LOL!

        I also wonder whether they’re actually blank, or maybe they just weren’t “formatted to be readable” by any CD player/reader … I’ve made that mistake a few times, myself.

        Reply
      • Deborah Garner Moore says:
        February 12, 2013 at 7:50 pm

        @lurker:

        Why are they requesting tapes of Trayvon’s voice for anyway? He certainly wouldn’t be yelling, screaming and crying in any of them?? Then they are asking for the last three years?

        Gentleman, and to the parents on this blog who have sons: I do and his voice it seemed changed overnight, but when my son was scared or in pain, his voice would sound like he was a little kid. Trayon sounded the way a young boy would sound, but in a state of fear and terror and the fact that he was screaming for his life, you certainly could tell, without a doubt, that, that was Trayvon Martin screaming calling for his mom, screaming, “I don’t know! I’m begging you…………MOM must be out of his mind to even think that, that was Fogen. He hears it as clearly as we do, and even W#18 said it was a boy screaming! Do you know if the tape has been enhanced to catch what Fogen was screaming in the background? I can’t even believe that Fogen is going to claim he called out for his Momma and was uttering all of that dialogue? To whom and why would he say anything like what we all hear when the nutcase had a gun???

        Reply
      • Deborah Garner Moore says:
        February 12, 2013 at 7:53 pm

        @Lurker:

        Fogen staid that, “It didn’t sound like him.” when Det. Serrino played the tape to him. Serrino was attempting to fool him, so Serrino says to him, “That’s you yelling?” Fogen, being as dumb as a rock, says,”It doesn’t sound like me.” My daughter yells out to me, “THAT”S BECAUSE IT ISN”T YOU, YOU DUMB A$$!” I had to laugh at her when she said that!

        Reply
      • lsimon3321 says:
        February 15, 2013 at 11:03 pm

        One of the YouTubers has a video of the 7-11 tape in which you hear TM answer his cell phone. You here Hello and something else. But, in another angle of the video, I don’t see that he’s on a phone. I’m not sure. As you say, you don’t hear him screaming for help in that video so I don’t see how that proves it is not him screaming later when confronted by a “creepy man” following him for miles and using a gun.

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      February 12, 2013 at 5:50 pm

      Weren’t these the videos that the defense provided to the prosecution as reciprocal discovery?

      Reply
      • roderick2012 says:
        February 12, 2013 at 7:42 pm

        I was wondering the same thing.

        Reply
      • Lynn says:
        February 12, 2013 at 11:10 pm

        Yes they are. Jan 18th.
        http://tinyurl.com/b93c888
        Soooo???…He got them on the Jan.9th…decided they were so important that he filed it as reciprocal discovery on the 18th…just to claim on Feb.9th that they are blank???

        Am I missing something or am I completely wrong?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          February 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm

          @Lynn

          Am I missing something or am I completely wrong?

          If you’re missing something, then I am too. Also, if they were filed on the 9th, why hasn’t the court’s website provided them? There is nothing on the clerk of the court’s docket sheet of the new filings, and the docs on the links provided are not file stamped.

          The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.

          http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents

          Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 6:24 am

        Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:00 am

        I don’t have time to follow this carefully, but note, it turns out, just as I suggested over at the TalkLeft and on the site of the crazy treehousers, that Team Fogen may have deposited Benjamin Crump only a day or two before, and that is exactly what happened: notice on taking deposition, January 4.

        Interesting both paraded some type of moral indignation that Crump hadn’t obeyed the 48 hours before hearing advance notice rule, since Blackwell presenting Crump’s affidavit only on the day of the hearing. I looked at the dates of advance notices of earlier depositions and noticed a trend towards short termed notices. Besides I asked Jeralyn the question if Crump was a party bound by the rules of Nelson at all, but did not get an answer.

        They are playing an elaborate manipulative game. They are obviously aware what their supporters immediately associate.

        Reply
      • SpecialladyT says:
        February 13, 2013 at 8:56 am

        Xena, here is a copy of the FDLE report. Those video’s were looked at and the FDLE didn’t find anything on them to preserve.

        Click to access fdle_reports_march.pdf

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:47 am

        Xena says:

        “The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.”

        IMO, If they were generated from a twitter account, then I say Jr probably was the one who generated them. Every once in a while when I read his tweets (when I can stomach them), he does have court documents listed for his ‘followers’, so I would bet that this is part of a plan which as:

        SpecialladyT says:
        “Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?!
        Holy crappolla!”

        Yes, I wouldn’t doubt that this is just another ploy by the defense to taint the prospective jury pool…and Jr rants about media ‘misinformation?’

        Reply
      • PYorck says:
        February 13, 2013 at 11:07 am

        The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.

        Documents often appear on their web server before they are linked from the main gzlegalcase.com site.

        You can find them if you go directly to the directory where earlier documents were located.

        http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/

        (If they wanted they could easily deactivate those listings but apparently they don’t.)

        Reply
    • lsimon3321 says:
      February 13, 2013 at 1:30 am

      I don’t understand what they gain from the video of the videos from Sam’s Club and Kohl’s.

      Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      February 13, 2013 at 7:02 am

      Oh goodie and open thread. Anyone seen Blushedbrown lately?

      Reply
      • grey winter sky says:
        February 13, 2013 at 10:04 pm

        …or also Malisha?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          February 14, 2013 at 12:28 pm

          Yep still not a peep, I liked Blushbrown system of providing us with on topic records research, it was helping us speed the discovery and discussion process. What happened? Where have they gone?

          Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 12:07 am

        I believe they’ve transferred to another school … one that awards credit to devoted students who work as diligently and contribute as heavily as they do.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 2:55 am

        Some other possible transfers(?):

        Shannoninmiami
        Fauxmccoy
        Gbrbsb

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 9:27 am

        Lonnie, Grey Winter, I’m here but very busy and keep falling the hell to sleep! Have a cold, no big deal, trying to get rid of all my possessions (including books, which are heavy!) so I can travel lighter and step lighter on the land, etc. etc. Major effort from a minor effort-maker, you can imagine.

        For about three days I have been in a time crunch. I hope this won’t go on for long, though, and I do check in (very occasionally) to check up. My problem is that if I start reading in depth then I start blogging and soon I haven’t realized that two hours have passed — HELP!

        Best regards to all — hey where IS BB?

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        February 14, 2013 at 11:20 am

        Not gone, not transferred. Catch you later —

        Oh, in advance, I’ll be absent on Monday Feb. 18 — to New York for a great show at Joe’s Pub — be there or be square as they say…

        Reply
      • groans says:
        February 14, 2013 at 1:32 pm

        Well, well. Now we see how rumors get started! 😉

        Good to hear from you, Malisha. Hope you can get a little rest before your trip!

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:55 pm

        BB has a new post up at:
        http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/

        “Let’s Go To The Video Tapes!”
        FEBRUARY 14, 2013
        It was a very good article.

        Anyone catch court today?

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        February 14, 2013 at 10:57 pm

        I hope it’s ok with the Professor and BB that I posted that link.

        Reply
    • pat deadder says:
      February 13, 2013 at 8:22 am

      Perhaps for fogen it’s more about what was said on the messages rather than the voice anaysis after all they know it’s not fogen screaming Just trying to find dirt on the victim.I don’t think Trayvon was an angel he was probably like my son who hated school and skipped school constanly which drove me crazy.I was worried he would never hold a job.None of my worries came to pass.Trayvon’s family will never get this chance.

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        February 14, 2013 at 3:47 pm

        HE is an angel. He is just human, and not perfect. If you check what has been released, he got suspended, I think, once for skipping school. He also got in trouble for writing graffiti on a locker and having what was perceived marijuana residue on a baggy found on him. Considering the 17 years of his life, he never truly did anyone truly wrong. He never hurt anyone in his life.

        Reply

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