Participate and Support our Right to a Jury Trial

Sunday, February 17,2013

During the brief hearing on Thursday, Judge Nelson assured prosecution and defense that the GZ murder trial will commence on June 10, 2013. She also ordered the Clerk of the Seminole County Circuit Court to mail out jury-service notices to 500 people to create the initial panel of potential jurors from which prosecution and defense will select the 6-person jury, plus alternates to decide the case. BDLR estimated that jury selection will take approximately 2 weeks.

Question: Why so many people?

Answer: Her decision probably acknowledges the nationwide reality that few people outside the judicial system recognize, namely, less than half of the people who receive a summons report for jury service.

For example, in western Washington where I used to practice law, less than a third of the people who receive notices report for jury service and the percentage of no-shows has increased over time.

Although judges could order the police to contact and transport to the courthouse anyone who fails to report for jury service, as was the custom long ago, they no longer issue such orders since the police lack necessary resources to carry them out. Judges have adjusted instead to the increasing percentage of no-shows by correspondingly increasing the number of people to whom they send notices. Although this policy has allowed the courts to continue to provide jury trials, I often wonder if it has adversely affected the jury decision-making process and the quality of its verdicts.

Evidence based jury verdicts that resolve disputes fairly and equitably without regard to race, gender, sexual preference, economic class, religion or national origin promote justice and increase community faith and confidence in the ability of its legal system to restore Ma’at. Confidence in the community can heal and restore community wellness.

Unjust verdicts do the opposite and have the capacity to destroy communities, nations and possibly our mother, Earth.

If you or someone you know has decided or is thinking about ignoring a summons to jury duty, please reconsider the decision in light of the individual and shared responsibility we have to practice Ma’at in our communities.

Jury verdicts always cause effects in individual and community awareness of itself. The butterfly effect of those decisions could end a war or start another one.

Participate in and support our right to a jury trial.

226 Responses to Participate and Support our Right to a Jury Trial

  1. Trained Observer says:

    Pity the writer of the open letter to Gov. Scott … Among myriad misconceptions, the poor soul doesn’t know the difference between its and it’s.

  2. Then today’s entry makes reference to this blog:
    [link removed]

    • Xena says:

      That is the new site of the Professor’s cyber-harasser and illegal doxer. If it was not for pro-justice for Trayvon blogs, Mike would have nothing to write about.

    • Xena says:

      By the way, that blog owner tweets Junior comments made on pro-justice for Trayvon blogs as though to instigate Junior into making attacks.

    • Xena says:

      @Diary, please do me/us a favor and ask the Professor to delete the link you provided. Mike doesn’t get “hits” and comments, and his blog doesn’t return in searches, so we shouldn’t promote his blog site.

      • Xena, I doubt that the few people clicking the link would propel his site to a desirable search level, but if Prof. Leatherman agrees with your caution, I would not object to this link being deleted. I am one, however, who thinks that reading the thought of all involved, especially when this blog is referenced, is actually beneficial to dialogue.

        • Xena says:


          I am one, however, who thinks that reading the thought of all involved, especially when this blog is referenced, is actually beneficial to dialogue.

          Diary, that person is not a reasonable person. He is a skilled liar with a chip on his shoulder who threatened to “destroy” the Professor and all those who participate on this blog.

      • Thanks, I deleted the two links.

    • bettykath says:

      Actually, he makes a valid point but his emotional rhetoric hurts his argument.

    • The person who maintains the blog to which you linked is an internet stalker obsessed with defaming me with intentionally false statements. He has no credibility and I have reported him to the police.

      I am going to edit your comments to remove the link.

  3. Off topic. This letter was for Florida’s governor. Notice the praises it has gained from the owner of the debate center and others. I won’t comment about the issues with English conventions, but I will just say that let’s hope this letter was not seriously sent to the governor’s office: [link removed]

    • bettykath says:

      Any letter that specifically disses the office by not referring to the current occupant by Governor, isn’t going to be taken seriously. Then he disses the governor, personally, in his first statement. Circular file.

  4. bettykath says:

    I’ve been trying to figure out what MOM is trying to do. I didn’t hear the language so I’m open to being corrected.

    My understanding is that a SYG hearing happens before any trial. The defense presents its case for self-defense, the prosecution refutes. The judge decides.

    If the judge decides it was SYG, that’s the end. The defendant walks and cannot be sued for wrongful death.

    If the judge decides it was not SYG, then the defendant is tried.

    At the trial, the prosecution presents its case. The defense presents its case, claiming self-defense. The jury decides. If guilty, off to jail. If not guilty, defendant walks. In either case, the defendant is liable for a wrongful death suit if one is filed.

    Cross examination and rebuttals SOP for the hearing and the trial.

    MOM has said the defendant is not claiming SYG. So why is there a question about having a pre-trial hearing re: self-defense? Isn’t self-defense an affirmative defense at trial, and only at trial?

    • aussie says:

      Well, WE all know that. The Outhousers don’t. It’s to give them continuing hope, to match O”Mara’s continuing hope that they’ll continue to open their wallets.

    • The SYG statute permits a defendant to request a pretrial immunity hearing if he is claiming self-defense under the SYG statute or traditional self-defense.

      The hearing is not mandatory. A defendant must request a hearing and it must be scheduled not less than 45 days before the trial date.

      • bettykath says:

        Thank you. More questions.

        But the definition is somewhat different SYG v traditional self-defense, right? So does that have to be specified before the hearing or is the claim made and then it’s decided which one applies, if either? If SYG, there is no exposure to a wrongful death lawsuit. If it is traditional self-defense it is? Is this correct? If so, then it makes a difference which is claimed or shown.

        Re: the 45 days means that what MOM has requested is contrary to the statute?

  5. ay2z says:

    Off topic, but does anyone find it strange that on the 911 call, not only does the shooter have detailed description of Trayvon’s clothing when ask, can list off in detail, the ‘grey’ hoodie (not black in the darkness as LMPapa’s video pointed out), the light coloured jeans or sweatpants Iis the shooter colourblind or did someone else describe this to him?), yet he does not list the button, until afterwards then it’s not significant enough in the description, to recall ever saying it?

    Not only that, the shooter doesn’t describe a button in the police interview, it seems to hold no significance to him as part of the description after the event.

    Makes you wonder if that 911 description was supplied by someone else, and the button added to that description, not from noticing the button, but from someone else’s description note.

    • aussie says:

      The one mention of the button sounded to me like ” heck, he’s close enough that I can see the button….” .. he sounded scared when he said that, it was at the same time as “coming to check me out”.

      So he got SO scared, a few minutes later, “I don’t know where this kid is at” he hangs around IN THE DARK for 2 minutes trying get a flashlight going, instead of high-tailing it back to the safety of his vehicle.
      How did he have the sudden courage? certainly not because he “forgot” he had his trusty firearm on him. Sorry, THE firearm.

  6. Trained Observer says:

    I don’t know what his deal is …

    • ay2z says:

      Probably stole the umbrella! Notice how fast he gives it away once the cop gives him a stern look? The real skippin’ suspeicious guy gets rid of the stolen goods that would be evidence, right under the cop’s watchful eye!

  7. colin black says:

    If foggen had spotted this guy.
    No non emergancy call required would have shot him on the spot.

    Standing his Ground of course,

    Q..How tight is foggen ?

    A..If you took him to a bar an asked him to pay for some drinks.He would shoot you for asking him .
    To stand a round.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yes, that pointed umbrella looks like an extemely dangerous weapon, and clearly this man is deranged, what with that smile and all. Good thing the guy dressed as a cop wasn’t out to be a hero .

      • ay2z says:

        Looks a lot like ‘skippin’ and looking around at all the buildings, to me, he doesn’t look like a hard core athelete who’d be out there in the rain.

        Sumthun’s wrong with him……………………………………..yep.

      • Rachael says:

        Yup. He’s a real suspicious-looking guy – he’s up to no good!!!


  8. Nefertari05 says:

    Looks like O’Mara is finally getting his butt in gear. Apparently Serino and others, including young Austin’s mom, were deposed last week. Baez (Serino’s atty) has not commented on the deposition. Interestingly enough, neither has O’Mara.,0,7234098.story

    • Trained Observer says:

      I suspect Serino’s depo will be devastating not only to Zimmerman, but to several folks within the Sanford PD ( including the one-time Chief Lee) attempting to sweep Trayvon’s fatal shooting under the rug. Possibly detrimental to Wolfinger as well. And, who knows who else?

      • kindheart101 says:

        I’m very interested to see Serino testify. And also the look on Fogen’s face when he does. I’m sure he thought his buddies at the precinct, and pressure from Daddy, would guarantee no one would step up to the plate.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        I believe so, as well. I wonder if the feds have already deposed him, in the investigation into the SPD response to this case, and the response to the community at large (regarding the list of complaints from the townhall meeting, with the NAACP and FBI Florida office, present), if they’re not the same investigation.

        Lee (and his predecessor) and Wolfinger have a LOT to answer for, IMO.

    • willisnewton says:

      Nefer – what investigation? Please cite evidence of any credible outside investigation into the behavior of SPD and Norm Wolfinger in regards to the Trayvon Martin case. I have seen none. The DoJ’s announcement and actions were quite specific – they looked into the possibility that George Zimmerman may have violated TM’s civil rights, but NEVER once announced they were investigating the SPD, Norm Wolfinger, ex-cheif Bill Lee, Jr, etc.

      It is a fallacy to assume there is a federal investigation of the SPD. It just isn’t so, IMO and I’ve seen no evidence that there is.

  9. Trained Observer says:

    Also, consider Fogen’s statement that Trayvon looked “like he’s on drugs or sumpem.”

    Sumpem? Sumpem? Did Fogen mean something?

    But he’s too ignorant to know how to pronounce a simple word … or was he himself on drugs?

    • kindheart101 says:

      Too bad we will never know! We know he told Serino he was taking medication, but was he also drinking? Did he take the right amount of medication? He sounded (at least to me) like he had slurred speech.

      I fail to understand how anyone in that whole damn department is able to process a murder! They made more mistakes than my kids did when learning their abc’s. No testing! Oh sure, go ahead, go to the bathroom Fogen, and be sure to wash your hands real well before you come back?

  10. acemayo says:

    Please GZ tell me what a resident of your area looks like
    If FS in sinning in the rain did that in you area you would have shot him.
    How fast must I walk the rain be before think something is wrong
    GZ tell me what an fitness fanatic look like

  11. Xena says:

    @LLMPapa. In case you visit and read this. The jury is in on your work, and here is their verdict.

  12. acemayo says:

    This what Robert Zimmerman said:
    Sanford’s history figures prominently in George Zimmerman’s case, his brother tells Bill Maher.
    “The reality of Sanford, Florida, is that it is a high-crime area,” Robert Zimmerman Jr. said on HBO’s “Real Time With Bill Maher” Friday night. “And sometimes it’s not only race is a factor, but the geography is a factor.
    this what the police department says:
    Black people in Sanford have a monopoly on crime; hard to deduce how you can engage in bias-based policing off of the facts presented by the SPD at their Web site. If you see a Black person in Sanford, odds are they’ll be the person engaging in a crime
    “George knew one thing: He knew that he had never seen this person before,” his brother told Maher. sense he was black the police says:
    Black people in Sanford have a monopoly on crime; hard to deduce how you can engage in bias-based policing off of the facts presented by the SPD at their Web site. If you see a Black person in Sanford, odds are they’ll be the person engaging in a crime
    That race had nothing to do with it
    “He knew that it was suspicious and warranted investigation by the police.
    When Hannity asked Zimmerman why his suspicions were aroused when he noticed Martin, Zimmerman replied in part:
    “I felt he was suspicious because it was raining. He was in-between houses, cutting in-between houses, and he was walking very leisurely for the weather. … It didn’t look like he was a resident that went to check their mail and got caught in the rain and was hurrying back home. He didn’t look like a fitness fanatic that would train in the rain.
    Unfortunately, he got in this situation, and I’ve been in this situation, where you kind of wind up being the eyes and ears of the police on the ground.”

  13. Jun says:

    Do they have the GPS info on Fogenhats, or at least what the Zidiots call Ping Logs?

    He had a cell phone, they have it at the station still I believe, I say get the GPS done on his phone and his vehicle (if it has GPS)

  14. lurker says:

    Just got my very first summons the other day–federal court grand jury. A family member has a summons for county court tomorrow AM. Always considered it like voting–an obligation to maintain stuff we believe in. Most of my payment has to go straight back to my employer, but I have known folks so low on the income ladder that jury duty was a welcome little part-time job for them.

    Shame that scoffers aren’t brought in. Quite certain that the numbers who just don’t bother to show would drop if that were put in place aggressively for a while.

  15. Mary Davis says:

    @ Professor. The other open thread was so long, I waited for a new thread, just in case you missed this. Please check your e-mail.

  16. doremus35 says:

    Dear Doremus 29:

    If you still are an inhabitant of the third rock from the sun, have a regular pulse, consistent heartbeat, and intend to continue to exhibit these symptoms of a continuing human life form please call me. Doremus 35

  17. Tommy's Mom says:

    On a lighter note

    Two men friends talking.

    “At your ripe age, what do you prefer to get – Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s?”

    The wise one answered, “Definitely Parkinson’s.
    Better to spill half an ounce of Jack Daniels, than to forget where you keep the bottle!”

    No offense meant to the men here.

    • bettykath says:


      My mom was asked a similar question and she opted for wanting to know what was going on. She got her wish. She got Parkinson’s. She was fully aware of everything as she lost her ability to speak, to walk, to move. At the end, all she could move was her eyes.

      Then I think of Shatner’s role in Boston Legal with his Alzheimer’s as MadCow.

      We have to focus on the humor of our impending or current frailties.

  18. Tommy's Mom says:

    We believed she was an accessory after the fact.I almost can’t bear to go back and think about it again.
    I agree about thinking about this again. I was amazed when they said NG but I don’t for a minute think GA had anything to do with Caylee’s death. He didn’t mind being thrown under the bus for abuse,which IMHO didn’t happen,but duct tape on that baby’s face and the smell of the car? No way.
    If I had been on that jury hearing Dr. “G” say there is simply no reason for duct tape to be anywhere near a baby’s face would be all I needed to hear,on top of all KC’s other lies. Guilty.
    JMHO of course.

    • pat deadder says:

      I understand what your’re saying.The 9 of us went back and forth but in the final analysis we couldn’t get past beyond a reasonable doubt.For now let’s just hope fogen gets convicted.I wish this blog had been available then perhaps you all could have offered us more insight thank you so much.

  19. degraveegmailcom says:

    But isn’t a gps basicly an anklebracelet with a tracking chip?
    Like a bicyclelock without the key?
    As long as the chip isn’t damaged…..
    Not like he wouldn’t dare.
    I’m probably wrong but living in amsterdam has shown me that there is no such thing as a permanent lock for a bike at least.

    • Xena says:

      John Goodman tried removing his GPS ankle bracelet and it was discovered before he could get it off. There must be some type of device-programming in it so if it’s tampered with, it sounds off at the monitoring station.

  20. Tommy's Mom says:

    Sorry that s/b if there is A SYG hearing.

  21. Tommy's Mom says:

    Question: I there is a SYG hearing does GZ have to take the stand?

    • Jun says:

      No one ever has to testify because of the fifth and the Miranda


      the only “evidence” of Fogenhats’ claimed assault, is the defendant’s own claims, so, unless he testifies, he has nothing to claim because no one can submit Fogenhats’ testimony for him and his testimony does not fall under any hearsay exceptions


      unless he testifies, he has nothing to claim

      He also cant count on witness 6 because he is jumping off the Fogenhats ship now

      His father and brother’s testimony does not mean much because they are not objective, nor were they there

      The forensics, ballistics, and witnesses, destroy anything Fogenhats wants to claim if he does testify

      The forensics, ballistics, and witnesses do not have an agenda and are objective evidence to the incident

    • rayvenwolf says:

      As pointed out GZ has to testify to get HIS version of things into evidence. If he doesn’t then he has nothing to present. Residents of R@TL who have been called as witnesses can only testiy to what they saw and/or heard at a given time, and not all of them have testimony that favors him. O’Money can’t testify and neither can anyone else on Team Z.

      Which is why his supporters thinking he can just skate by without testifying or better yet simply saying it was self defense and that’s it, is so hilarious.

      • Jun says:

        Pretty much, his only witness, witness 6, is jumping off his ship and recanting or at the very least, now claiming he was not sure what he saw or heard

        • rayvenwolf says:

          Exactly and even then 6 painted a small part of the picture(badly). Without someone who saw things start to finish Fogen is gonna have to sing like Pavarotti and sing well if he wants to escape.

          Of course all the showmanship in the world can’t fight evidence that says otherwise.

  22. Mary Davis says:

    @ PiranhaMon. From the other open thread. I don’t think you have a cold heart at all. In fact, from reading your posts I think you are a very compassionate person with a warm heart. I enjoyed reading your post to me. When I got to the bottom, I said WOW.
    Dr. King was such a wise man. Much wiser than his years.
    Thank you for sharing this with me.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      Mary, thank you. It was early in his public life, but he was known and recognized. I was surprised he was flying without “handlers” but a large group met him at the gate – in those days the public could go to the arrival gate and meet passengers. I had to stop and talk with the crew and left the aircraft much later. As I passed the group he gave me a nice wave. Never saw Dr. King in person again.

      I met a number of personages in my travels. One passnger I will remember FOREVER was on a flight sitting next a US Admiral. I realized he looked familiar, he wasn’t the friendliest guy, but we chatted. (I rarely told passengers I worked for the airline. Did not want to hear their complaints about lost bags, etc. I was never on standby, had a regular ticket, and looked like any other passenger.)

      I figured I had “the ace in the hole” for charm, though, because I remembered an article in Time Magazine about his work recently on nuclear energy. It said he pronounced his name (Strauss)in an unusual manner: “Straws.”

      So I expected to Wow! this guy by saying goodbye with the correct pronunciatiion. The article also said how unusual it was for a Jew to rise to a top rank in the Navy – and frankly, that’s ALL I remembered about the article.

      We didn’t talk a lot but did discuss nuclear power a bit, which he was expert in.

      And so it came to pass, when the flight was over, I put out my hand to shake his, (which had a grip like vise, hard as a rock – and he was pysically a short, slim person, but tough), smiled and said, “Thank you for the interesting flight, Admiral STRAWWWS.”

      There was a beat, he mangled my hand even tighter, dropped it and said tersely,

      “Right rank, wrong Jew.
      Name’s Rickover.”

      So much, Mary, for charm school.
      I sure flunked that one!

  23. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< I always show up for jury duty. My employer makes it easy to do do, unlike many places or self employed people who lose money on a day wasted. The process needs reform, especially the paying part. In Houston we get a whopping six bucks! In downtown Houston, that don't even get you a lunch and forget about parking!

  24. Trained Observer says:

    He’ll be missed as soon as his GPS departs Seminole County or Orange County if heading O’Mara’s office … or when he strips it off. His opportunity to flee the country with any odds of even temporary success has long passed.

    • aussie says:

      He could cut off the GPS say at night when they’re not expecting it to be moving around.

      Where he’s really come unstuck is, he only has money for a ticket on Greyhound (do they still have those?) and he’d be recognised long before the first border.

  25. When is the next public appearance of GZ expected?
    I think this guy is contemplating a disappearing with or without his wife.
    Leaving his brother and his lawyer to distract and keep everybody busy
    in the media.
    It might even work
    He won’t be missed untill June.

  26. Trained Observer says:

    I just listened to three of Fogen’s phoners with the missus as featured on Orlando Sentinel when googling Shellie Zimmerman on site. (He’s difficult to hear because of whispering, but she’s quite audible, as is sister suzie in third call featured.)

    Apart from the mushy stuff about Fogen being “such a cutie” (barf!) or Fogen gabbing about shower day, there’s lot’s of chat in code. Am wondering if sis (also great at high drama whispering) has been subpoened by the state or if she’s also benefitted financially from the defense fund. Well worth listening to if you’ve got the time.

  27. elcymoo says:

    Isn’t Shellie Zimmerman’s trial on perjury charges stll scheduled to begin at 9 a.m.on the 20th, just two days from now? I’ve seen nothing about any calls for jurors yet. Does this mean that her defense team is planning to have the judge decide her case?

    • Rachael says:

      She’s been given a trial date? I thought it was a docket sounding.

      • elcymoo says:

        I think you’re right. I just gave the site a quick look a week or so ago. I think this is a case that could have and should have been settled months ago. There’s only so much preparation her attorneys could have done, given the clear evidence in the case.

    • I read that her case was continued last week.

      • kimmi says:

        Again? How does she keep getting a continuance?
        It seems like you would have to have a valid reason, not just ‘I don’t want to face the music,’ but then what do I know?

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @kimmi it probably helps that her lawyer threw the mother of all hail mary’s and tried to say they didn’t have the power to charge SheLie. I believe her next court date was for the judge to sound off on that and to move forward or try to. Try to based on the fact SheLie’s lawyer has asked for continuance after continuance and making sure SheLie doesn’t actually have to show her face.

        If it were me(assuming I had lost all good sense and reason) I would just change my plea and get this over with.

      • Rachael says:

        Then what is happening on the 20th?

      • ay2z says:

        02/06/2013 WAAP WAIVER OF APPEARANCE


        01/24/2013 NOTC NOTICE OF COURT PROCEEDING 2/19/13 130PM 5C




        Looks like the20th was changed to the 19th, there is a waiver of attendance for the 20th, looks like that was updated a day later, maybe to state the 19th. Motion for continuance filed Jan 22.

        There’s no notice of cancellation of this week’s hearing, but would there be if a continuance was granted?

      • ay2z says:

        A continuance was granted on the 18th of January, blut AFTER that was granted, the docket sounding was listed for the 20th of Feb, 9 am.

        That has now been changed to the 19th, subsequent to this, so docket sounding, with waiver for SZ should still be set for tomorrow, 1:30.

        01/18/2013 DKSN AMENDED DOCKET SOUNDING [A] – DATE: 02/20/2013 – TIME: 0900AM – CTRM: 5C

      • aussie says:

        She is going to get continuances right up until/after GZ’s trial.


        Because if they do it earlier, it would come out she’s made a deal to throw GZ under the bus. Or truck.

  28. Dave says:

    When I was young there were many times when I was so damn broke that I desperarely wished for a jury summons just for the pitifully few dollars of jury pay. A long trial with a sequestered jury (free meals!) would have been a dream come true. Naturally I was never called up until I was past 40 in a job that paid me my full wages for jury duty. Since then I’ve been called up half a dozen or so times and actually sat on two juries. Both trials were were felony cases. They only took a couple of days and happily ended with easy acquitals. They were very interesting experiences and it was a great opportunity to sit down with a random group of people from all sorts of backgrounds and hash over every detail of the case (much as we do here). I was very impressed with how seriously everyone took the deliberations, including the ones who bitched and moaned the loudest about having to be there.

    I believe that the issue of jury pay needs to be addressed in order to make the jury system work as it should. In my opinion the courts should pay every person called up for jury duty 8 hours pay at minimum wage for every day spent at the courthouse and their employers legally required to make up the difference between that and their normal pay.

    • Rachael says:

      Wow, where I live, it is like $6 a day, no free meals and no paid parking.

      When I lived somewhere else, it was $12 a day, but still no free meals or parking.

      Never heard the free meals part.

      • Dave says:

        I think sequestered juries get free meals.

      • Rachael says:

        Well that makes sense. I was on 5 trials, only 2 that I can remember because they were big – one was one of the first “3 strikes and you’re out” trials here in Washington that lasted 3 days, the other an accomplice to murder for hire conspiracy thing that was 12 weeks long in Arizona. Neither were sequestered. The murder trial almost turned into a murdered juror LOL.

  29. Drew says:

    I’ve been called for jury duty five times, somehow most of them right after I graduated college and was having trouble finding work. Being the massive deadbeat that I was (thanks for emotional lift, Dennis!), I “got out of it” four times, by writing a letter explaining my economic circumstances at the time. The court seems to be pretty okay with “deadbeats” like me because they always took me off the list when I requested it.

    The one time I was able to do it was more recently – three years ago, when my financial/job situation was more stable – I spent two days at the courthouse and was never questioned. I was fully compensated through my teacher’s union, which was nice. However, there was no one trustworthy to cover my classes at the crazy school I taught in; I think if I had been asked to be on a jury for any length of time all I would have been thinking about were my algebra students.

    Anyway, apart from that, I have no good stories about it whatsoever, just wanted to tell you all how much of I deadbeat I am.

    • bettykath says:

      Drew, deadbeat? If you’ve said all there is about it, that’s not a good word to use. You were financially strapped for some period of time. Many of us have been there at one time or another. Calling yourself deadbeat connotes shame, but no shame in it unless you had money and you stiffed those you owed.

  30. Wow. I just read that O’Mara is trying to convince Judge Nelson to combine the immunity hearing with the actual trial. Does anybody know the likely hood of her going along with that?

    • Jun says:

      We wont know till she replies

      but she has stated she is not granting any continuances or delay of the SYG if they want one, unless there is a very valid reason

      It has already been ruled that they do not have a valid reason to delay

    • Nefertari05 says:

      There’s a hearing this Friday to discuss it, among other things.

    • seallison says:

      The article fails to mention the ENTIRE purpose of SYG – immunity from prosecution at trial and liability. If MOM is confident in the judge granting immunity, and there is no trial — it saves a heck of alot of money.

      He is switching the burden to the state. Very creative.

      But, if judge grants immunity and jury votes guilty, that guilty verdict becomes null and void.

      Deny SYG and go with standard self-defence. Don’t fall for the trap under the guise of saving money. It is the fault of the defence and the defence only that money is not available. Force indigence hearing, throw the bugger back in jail, and proceed as planned.

      • Xena says:


        But, if judge grants immunity and jury votes guilty, that guilty verdict becomes null and void.

        It wouldn’t happen like that because a judge has to grant or deny immunity before the jury hears anything.

        O’Mara’s talk about combining the immunity hearing in with trial is not a procedure that I’ve been able to find in Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure. The idea of immunity is hoping that the judge will find that the defendant is immune from prosecution — from going to trial.

        GZ can still claim self-defense at trial, but even a jury finding of not guilty moots immunity because he has to stand trial in order for a jury to hear the case.

    • Jun says:

      I dont see the point of combining the two

      might as well just go to trial because it is the same thing

      I also do not see her granting immunity because all of Fogenhats’ “evidence” is a bunch of nonsense or crap from his lying family

      The state has a timeline and evidence from the scene to back up everything plus their mysterious work product, and a team that has dealt with defendant’s media whoring in attempts to taint jurors, such as with Marissa and that old white dude who brandished a gun at some teenagers, whom also went around the media spouting nonsense and they both lost

      I dont see any extenuating circumstances

      It will have been over a year

      They should be ready, especially since Omara claims there is an enormous amount of evidence in his favor

      Why would he not just get it over and done with?

      Oh yeah, it is because Omara is trying to milk money out of it

      • seallison says:

        I agree. Forget the SYG and go directly to regular trial to claim regular self-defence. SYG does not apply and MOM has already admitted that. He should just quit the monkey business. He knows there is more explosive discovery to come from Prosecutors in regular case and we are all waiting to see it.

  31. Jun says:

    I am curious what the state has hidden as their work product

    and what is within Fogenhats phone records and texts

    I am not expecting him to tell the truth

    • ladystclaire says:

      He is another Casey Anthony in that he will never tell the truth. so, it is a good thing IMO that if he wasn’t the only one involved in this murder, maybe this is GOD’S plan for him to be the only one to get his FAT ASS pinched for more than just a year. his bragging is really catching up with him and, I’m glad it is. the worthless POS who can’t hold down a honest job and, this is what he gets for not minding his own business if he had any to mind.

      • seallison says:

        As Judge Stan Strickland said in the Casey Anthony case (paraphrasing):

        The truth and George Zimmerman are strangers.

      • Jun says:

        I do not feel the case is similar to Casey, as everything has it’s own unique qualities, but defendant’s lying and telling tall tales is a fairly common occurrence

        Most people do not want to go to prison, however, they may want to commit crimes, hence they will try and cover their crimes with manipulations and lies

      • Dennis says:

        I still think it is sad that anyone believes poor Caylee died in an accident. Anyone with a brain knows that child was murdered, just like anyone with a brain knows Fogen murdered Trayvon.

      • abbyj says:

        Amen, ladystclaire.

      • pat deadder says:

        I’m sorry I can’t compare anthony and fogen.We know fogen shot TM.I listened to Anthony trial 3 times not Nancy Grace and to me and to the 9 other people watching with me there was something weird about her father.Can’t remember everything but he said he spent time with Caley in the mornings ,getting her breakfast,watching her favorite shows etc.C,Anthony had been up till 4am on the phone.We believed she was an accessory after the fact.I almost can’t bear to go back and think about it again.

      • Jun says:

        In the Casey case, there was even a possibility that it was her father who did it

        They both had access to the car and the computer and to Caylee

      • ladystclaire says:

        @pat deadder, I think you misunderstood what I was actually trying to convey. what I meant was, Casey never told the truth about what happened to Caylee and she knew how this kid died. the same thing applies to Fogen because like Casey he has told lie after lie and, he will never tell the truth of what actually happened that night.

        In his mind he can say anything he wants to because, Trayvon is not here to tell his side of the events of that night. he also thought he got away with committing murder but, he was sadly mistaken. little does he know, that there are times when there is actually an eye witness that he/we don’t even know about because it is being kept on the down low in order to protect this witness. after all, didn’t Serino tell Fogen that there was a person who called the PD to report what they saw only to be brushed aside?

        They didn’t know who this person was and, IMO they took what they knew and saw to the state.

  32. seallison says:

    Well – I have never been called to jury duty and don’t know anyone who has either. You all have some interesting experiences about it and I am feeling pretty left out over here (LOL).

    Jury Duty is paid leave where I worked. Although it is a government job, I think the paid leave is a Corporations Civic Duty to guarantee that a citizen should not suffer financial difficulty when acting as a juror.

    You cant have a good jury when they are worried about their families, their jobs, their finances, or their not really wanting to be there.

    So, Dennis, I must totally disagree with your point of view. There are many reasons for someone not being a good juror – and, someone not showing up for selection sorta tells me they would not be a good juror anyway.

    • seallison says:

      If I were called to Jury Duty, I would serve as required. It is my Civic Duty and should serve barring insurmountable circumstances. It is good that the Court makes concessions. I like the aussie way. I will have to research the Canadian process because I just do not know how it works here.

      Do schools still teach civics. If not, there may not be an understanding about the duties and responsibilities of being a good citizen.

  33. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I was summoned twice and served both times. I used to look forward to jury duty until the second time serving. It was a case of a tenant suing his landlord because the landlord went into his apartment and moved all of his belongings out to the road because he said he thought the guy moved out. The tenant wasn’t home for three days because he was staying with his sister. I am a landlord, so I know that you can not do this and know that it is a yuly trespassing and possibly breaking and entering and other things, so I couldn’t understand why he didn’t press charges. We were not told if he had or hadn’t. Our job was to decide if the landlord should have to pay the tenant what he was asking in damages to his belongings being outside.

    The jurors created a timeline for the tenants whereabouts before the night the landlord moved his belongings… I was like, seriously? Then a woman juror was very concerned anout the tenants boots that he was wearing in court, saying that she knew they were $100 boots… I was like seriously? Needless to say, I was the only juror in favor of the plaintiff. I was honestly frustrated and disgusted with the other jurors and decided that in the future, I will serve if chosen, but I no longer look forward to it.

  34. Lynn says:

    I believe it is our duty. We the people.

    Jurors should come from all walks of life. Not just the unemployed or retired or available. It might only happen a time or two in your life. Suck it up and go.
    I’ve only been called three times.
    First time I was a very young gal and pregnant. I was eager to serve but they sent me packing.
    Next time I got picked on a murder trial and the guy pleaded guilty at the last minute 😦
    Last time I asked to be excused as my mom was hospitalized with terminal cancer and I was taking care of my 10 yr old sister.

    I will keep waiting. Someday I’ll get the privilege to serve as a juror.

    • aussie says:

      Precisely, Lynn. They didn’t force you to neglect your personal responsibilities to do a “civic duty”. They chose people whose personal situations at the time allowed them to serve. You weren’t let off because you plain “didn’t feel like” serving.

      Forcing people would just lead to “let’s make a quick decision and get the hell out of here” which would not be in anyone’s best interests.

    • Tommy's Mom says:

      ITA I’ve been called three times,showed up 1st time and served on two juries,2nd time I was picked once and excused,3rd time one of the reasons for being excused was age,I was over the stated age so I didn’t have to serve again. Good too because I was still employed and no one wanted to do my job,even for a day or two.

  35. onlyiamunitron says:

    If the only people on juries are people who want to be on juries, you don’t have impartial jurors.


    • seallison says:

      Sorry unitron – Don’t make me go to a movie I don’t want to see. Puts me in a wrong frame of mind from the get go. I am likely not going to pay attention or focus because I don’t want to be there and really don’t care.

      After the boring movie has ended and everyone heads to the pub to discuss it, I will go with the flow and nod politely with the majority. Because I really did not want to go, I fell asleep with my eyes open, thought about my last vacation, etc. and could hardly wait for intermission.

      Don’t agree with you on that one, unitron.

    • groans says:

      Unitron, I agree.

      And it seems from what she wrote that Seallison agrees, too, even though she concludes otherwise.

      • seallison says:

        Maybe not a good analogy used, but, I do believe everyone sitting on a jury should want to be there.

        I would hate to think that there would be someone on a jury who is unable to engage in an informed and careful consideration to reach agreement.

      • bettykath says:

        Sometimes we must do what’s responsible, not just what pleases us.

        Some of my most memorable experiences are from activities that I wouldn’t have initiated due to lack of interest. Once into it, you have the choice of being bored and a stick-in-the-mud, or you can participate and look for the best of it.

        Something I keep in mind when things aren’t going right (flat tire on a bridge one cold and rainy night with the spare under the car is what comes to mind), “some day this will be a great story”.

  36. William Walton says:

    Prof: I think it a persons duty to serve on a Jury. I have only served on a Grand Jury while living in Illinois. Excused myself during that Grand Jury hearing because my neighbor who was a deputy sheriff was to testify. Was told I made the right decision.

    Now in Texas, I underwent two brain surgeries for a subdural hematoma in 2001. I was summoned once for jury duty and asked my son who is an attorney in Alaska. He served as an assistant DA in Alaska and he told me call and have myself excused. His comment was “Dad, I know you can think rationally, but you would leave the door wide open for an appeal. Called in and the girl I talked to agreed. Was called the second time and called in and my request was met with, well the judge requires all who are summoned to appear. I appearred and the judge called my name and dressed me down for not having a tie on. We talked and I explained why I felt I would not be a good candidate for being a juror. Explained oldest son (Attorney’s) perspective and it did not seem to fase the Judge. The assistant DA handling the case stated that he did not want me on the Jury. He went on to state that yes I was most competent but agreed with my son that I would most likely leave open an appeal based on my past medical condition. The defense attorney also moved that I be removed from the pool. So, it is interesting how the Judical System works as well as the Judges who oversee it. Much unlike the Scientific System that I am accustomed to.

  37. William Walton says:

    Xena, do you live in Boone County, Illinois? I grew up and my Dad was a physician in Marengo, Illinois. He also practiced general medicine, general surgery and tramau surgery in Chicago. Grew up on a farm outside of Marengo, graduated Marengo High School and U of I. How interesting!

    • Xena says:

      @William Walton.

      Xena, do you live in Boone County, Illinois? I grew up and my Dad was a physician in Marengo, Illinois. He also practiced general medicine, general surgery and tramau surgery in Chicago. Grew up on a farm outside of Marengo, graduated Marengo High School and U of I. How interesting!

      Dr. Cargill in Marengo (OSF) was my physician for years until he retired. I’m a native Chicagoan, (DePaul U) and left the city for the suburbs in 1979, moved to Boone County in 1997 and then to Winnebago County. I miss Chicago, but the cost of living here is ideal for retirement. I have a friend who just moved from Hampshire to Belvidere.

      • William Walton says:

        Xena, how small the world is! I was transferred to Texas in 1974 to head up BASF’s oilfield chemical division. Illinois was fine for 32 years but the weather in Texas is a whole lot nicer. I do not miss all the snow at all. I know of all the communities of which you speak. Good talking to you!

      • William…..I’m from Michigan and I really DO miss the winter weather since moving down to south-central Texas. Too hot, too dry, for too long. I know several people from Michigan who moved to the Dallas area and like it there because they have a more “normal” climate…they even occasionally have snow.

  38. Trained Observer says:

    Apart from the 1st degree murder trial in ’89 (mentioned on an earlier thread), I also served on civil case jury in 2005. The trial lasted six weeks, although court didn’t meet on Friday.

    My employer (fewer than 50 employees) was livid — especially CEO and his know-it-all wife. Fortunately for me, the company president was himself a lawyer (first in his law school graduating class) and a member of the state bar. He mostly kept quiet (as did I), as the two company fools at the top debated whether I should “be allowed” to serve on the jury where I’d already been seated. I had the luxury of knowing they’d be in bigger trouble than I ever would if they tried to force me off the jury … or if they fired me when I refused to abide by their wishes.

    The civil case itself was a pissing match between two private enterprises involved a sewer system installation for the county. Soil contamination was a sidelight on major project delay.

    Testimony was tedious, but the parade of witnesses and the story overview on who was trying to screw who and why was fascinating.

    Plaintiff tore the defense a new one. We jurors (plus an alternate) assumed defense would come back like gangbusters with a compelling alternate view, but that never happened. In fact, the defense mostly solidified the impression we already had: Its own arrogant client was to blame for virtually all of the delay.

    We awarded the plaintiff everything asked for and then some, and didn’t hold the county as middleman at all responsible in this protracted dispute.The defense counsel expressed shock when the verdict came in … duh. No appeal was ever filed.

    In 2007, I resigned from my small company when a better offer came in from a former employer. It was fun to leave at my convenience, remembering how the CEO and wifey had tried to jerk me around in 2005.

    When I hear people brag about how easy it is to blow off jury duty, I always know they aren’t people I want in my life.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Why all the judgement calls about people who don’t want to do jury duty? There are many other ways to participate in civic responsibilities We’re not all cut from the same cloth, thank goodness.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – I don’t think jury duty should be a requirement. I believe people should be able to decline. After all, the courts decline far more people than they put on juries. Let those who want to serve in jury trials serve. And let them stop judging others who aren’t interested.

      • aussie says:

        I agree. Responsibility to family comes first. You can’t abandon your children to look after themselves, nor afford to lose income you need for your rent or mortgage, for “civic duty”…. you’d just end up a burden on society yourself. For many part time workers, not being available when wanted means losing the job altogether. There are plenty of people for whom the time (and nominal pay) of being on a jury is an interesting diversion, not a serious burden. Let them do it, it’s not like they need 30 million jurors every month.

      • groans says:

        @ Two sides, regarding:

        Let those who want to serve in jury trials serve. And let them stop judging others who aren’t interested.

        I totally understand your concerns about people for whom jury duty would create a hardship. That’s a very real problem, and people should not be forced to incur personal hardships that impair their ability to take care of their fudamental needs.

        But I also think you might share my concern about allowing people who “want to serve in jury trials” to constitute our juries. That raises concerns in my mind, in that people who too eagerly “want” to serve on juries might have an agenda underlying that desire. That is, just like “wanna-be cops” can negatively impact our justice system, I think “wanna-be jurors” can similarly jeopardize justice.

        A healthy disinterest but willingness to serve on a jury is, to me, preferable to some yahoo who is super-anxious to get on a jury in order to “do some justice” (i.e. – NOT), in accordance with some agenda the yahoo has. You know what I mean?

        That said, I completely agree that if jury duty creates harm to a person’s life maintenance – as opposed to his/her employer’s maintenance – it is preferable to allow the person to sustain his/her life than to impair it by forcing jury duty on him/her.

      • Dennis says:

        Jury duty is a civic responsibility. You can’t allow people to decide to show up or not. Do you really want sociopaths like Zimmerman on your jury? That is the only people that will show up if you allow people to weasel out of jury duty. You aren’t going to get an unbiased jury by letting people decide to show up or not.

        In countries like Israel and Sweden, men have to serve in the military. It is called a civic responsibility.

      • aussie says:

        Dennis, a lot of countries have National Service. They serve full time, and get a living wage to do it. They don’t lose any permanent civilian job because of it. They don’t expect single mothers to serve, either, and leave their kids alone for the duration. Plus you will find they all allow exemptions for disabilities or being sole carers of minors or or aged parents etc.

        I do agree though you don’t want juries composed of “professional” jurors, who must have a personal agenda for wanting to be on numerous juries. That aside, there are people with a genuine interest in trials who will attend them regularly the same way others may go to the movies every week.

      • bettykath says:

        As TrainedObserver says, most courts are pretty lenient in excusing people who would face a hardship by serving. Show up, get a day’s pay, and be excused. A real dumb-a$$ attitude would show up in voir dire anyway. Another opportunity to be excused.

    • Trained Observer says:

      By law, when summoned, the prospective juror’s duty is to show up and shut up until questioned by the court. A prospective juror who doesn’t want to serve on a particular case or on any in general certainly has a right to say so. The decision then will be made on whether the excuse is valid. Lack of interest, I doubt would suffice in most courtrooms.

  39. Lonnie Starr says:

    Welcome back stranger, we were beginning to worry.

  40. Cercando Luce says:

    I was called up twice, both times long after I had moved away from the jurisdiction. Prof is right about civic responsibility.

  41. operacarla says:

    I spent some time over at the tree house and all they can talk about is DeeDee and Crump. I don’t think they realize that the SPD would have never found DeeDee brcause they were intent on sweeping this MURDER under the rug. I think DeeDee will be a very compelling witness as she accurately describes the mail hut and where Trayvon was in comparison to Ms. Green’s house. She had never visited The Retreat, so her only source of information was from what Trayvon was telling her. She states that Trayvon ask’s fogen “why are you following me?” clearly proving stalking. She then hears Trayvon telling “get off”. You can clearly hear this in the 911 tape at second 3:

    I am so glad she is being protected from those who clearly wish her ill.

    She will be a very compelling witness. I pray for her courage daily. I’m sure her pain is agonizing.

    Justice for Trayvon!!!
    Courage for DeeDee!!!

    • ladystclaire says:

      I worry about her having to take the stand in person and, I would like to know if there is any way for her to testify without actually having to be there? these evil people at the conservative doghouse mean to do her harm and, I don’t think she should have to testify without having her there in the flesh.

      Since the Zimmerman family were allowed to testify via phone hook up, couldn’t the same be done for DeeDee?

      • Tzar says:


      • Tzar says:

        sorry meant to reply and addendum to myself or opercala

      • kimmi says:

        I agree. Why were the family members of someone charged with murder afforded such ‘convenience’ for THEIR safety?

        Here is a ear-witness who ALSO has been threatened (not a criminal and not a family member), not given the same rights?

        Fogen’s family was sworn in and gave testimony via telephone, why can’t DeeDee? Doesn’t make much sense to me.

        IMO, DeeDee’s threats are much more credible than Fogen’s ever were.

      • kimmi says:

        EDIT-IMO, DeeDee’s threats are much more credible than Fogen’s (family’s) threats ever were.

        I understand it is not allowed for a witness at a trial, but then why is Fogen’s family allowed ‘telephone-testimony’ just because it is a bond hearing?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        They can put her behind a screen or use a video link, there’s plenty of options, just need the judge to decide if there’s enough of a threat. I’m sure the SP has collected enough doxing attempt posts to warrant some kind of protection for her.

    • Tzar says:

      OMG, I finally hear it!!!!! I finally hear the “GET OFFFFFFF!!!!”

      Thank you Opercala, I had always thought he said something else or not paid attention to that part
      My goodness once you hear it, it is clear as day.
      HOLY fuck his goose is cooked!!!!
      why do we even discuss this?
      holy shit!!
      He or they, had this kid completely pinned and immobilized
      you can hear by the way he says get off!!!

      (I don’t think it’s the same utterance dee dee heard, this one is well into the confrontation and not at the beginning)

      • @ Tsar @ Opercala,
        OMG is right
        I hear it too now ,he is calling really loud like “GET OFFFF!!!!”
        Stretching the O In OFlike AH!!!
        Like he is trying to alert but also scared as hell.Its chilling.
        Wat other evidence is needed even?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Tzar, I believe he knows just how cooked his goose is and, that is why he wants his GPS removed because he wants to run. the OBESE POS has some nerve to be in court crying. his tears are not for Trayvon but for himself. I really do believe that deep down inside of himself, he knows his days of just having a curfew and a gps on his ankle are numbered and,it’s off to prison he goes.

        He wouldn’t be sitting in a courtroom crying if he had just left Trayvon alone. but no, he had to play Billy Badass with his gun and he is now looking at 35-life as well as some federal charges. he shouldn’t expect to be able to hold a child at gunpoint, shoot him and then yell self defense. not to mention the fact that he followed Tray by car and then on foot. THERE IS NO SELF DEFENSE HERE!

      • Tzar says:

        when was he crying in court?

      • PiranhaMom says:

        !@Tsar –
        @OperaCarla –

        What brand of earphone do you use?
        Where did you buy them?
        I want to upgrade.


      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Tsar, OperaCarla,

        Wow! Even with Radio Shack headphones, I hear Get OOOOOFFFF and I don’t KNOOOOOOW.

        I have a question for everyone – both
        John and Jenna HEADED UPSTAIRS in their condos as soon as they got a view of the fight – Jenna being told by Jeremy, who
        was WATCHING THE FRAY — and both were in condos closest to the killing – and WHY were they so hot to beat it upstairs?

        Because they saw it was Zimmerman, they knew Zimmerman carried a gun – and THEY SAW THE GUN in Zimmerman’s hand menacing Trayvon in his final moments.

        Why do you think Jenna was the FIRST 911 caller? I bet Jeremy had just told her “It’s George. He’s got a gun!”

        They beat it the hell upstairs because THEY DID NOT WANT TO GET CAUGHT IN THE GROUND-LEVEL CROSSFIRE.

        I think Jenna had a tough time getting Jeremy to come in, go upstairs – because he wasn’t worried about croossfire – HE SAW ZIMMERMAN’S GUN POINTED DIRECTLY DOWN AT TRAYVON’S HEART BENEATH HIM.

        What are your thoughts?

    • The 911 call was made AFTER the earwitness began hearing the screaming. How long had the screaming been going on (minutes) BEFORE the call….One minute, or a bit longer? The shot that silenced the screams was fired at the 45 second mark after the call began. So, Trayvon had been screaming for about two minutes. He wouldn’t have been screaming in terror like that if he wasn’t being threatened. Fogenocchio claims that he had to reach back to get his gun. From the time fogenocchio had his gun in his hand, how long would it have taken for him to aim and shoot….five seconds? IMO, Fogen never reached behind him for the gun while lying on his back (and he wasn’t on his back while he was interrogating Trayvon for those 2 minutes). He ALREADY had his gun in hand and was threatening Trayvon with it while he was interrogating him, hence, the screams of terror for at least 1 3/4 minutes before the shot was fired.

      • Xena says:

        @grey winter sky

        So, Trayvon had been screaming for about two minutes.

        There are no doubt others here who have studied the call recordings more closely than I have, so I stand corrected if I’m mistaken. Trayvon and DeeDee’s phone call disconnected at 7:16 pm. The phone log does not provide seconds. What she describes from the point where Trayvon asked “What are you following me for” until the call disconnects covers a matter of seconds.

        The call that captured the screams and gunshot connected at 7:16:11. The sound of the shot was captured at 7:16:56. That means that it took GZ a minute or less from meeting with Trayvon face to face to killing him.

      • Xena, so almost immediately after Trayvon’s call was disconnected after he said “what are you following me for?” (7:16) and the time that the 911 call began (7:16:11), there was only 11 seconds or less which means, that fogenocchio must have had a gun on Trayvon at that point for Trayvon to start screaming (just before the call was made). So just where in this miniscule time period (11 seconds or less) could Trayvon have pounded on fogen since Trayvon was on the phone with DeeDee all the other time while he was trying to get away from mofofogen.. I wish I could download all the information myself but I appreciate the information you provide. (It took almost a half hour to download that 45 seconds of the video) My browser is giving up slowly but surely….arrrrghhhhhhh!

        • Xena says:

          @grey winter sky. I’m sorry to hear about your browser. Sometimes, if you’ve been on sites with lots of pics and/or videos and your browser slows down, rebooting helps.

          So just where in this miniscule time period (11 seconds or less) could Trayvon have pounded on fogen since Trayvon was on the phone with …

          Exactly! We are suppose to believe that in less than a minute, GZ believed he was near death by a kid who had no weapon.

          As far as GZ having his gun out, this is what he told Hannity:

          ZIMMERMAN: “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

          GZ conveys two things here. First, his fear was not in losing his life at the hands of Trayvon Martin, but at the hands of the police. Why fear losing your life to the cops? Because GZ had his gun out not just to take the shot and put it back in his holster, but long enough for the cops to see him with it, and shoot him.

          Like BDLR said at a hearing, that Hannity interview is a gold mine.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You might want to look in on “” it’s a listing of internet service providers and the prices they charge. I got DSL from NetZero at 14.95/mo. for example. I look in on the list every once in a while just to see what’s up.

      • Jun says:

        That can be easily calculated

        Deedee said the call cutoff and she called back immediately

        We just gotta find the timing of the call she attempted after the call cut out, and that is a very close to accurate time frame of the beginning of the actual struggle Fogenhats initiated

      • Xena…THANK YOU so much for the link to the Hannity interview transcript link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I didn’t know that they had this as a transcript) I don’t have tv..and like I said, the computer is ancient so I can’t watch videos but, this is PRICELESS! WOW After reading the interview, I got the feeling that Hannity really doesn’t believe fogen’s story, even if he tries to give the impression that he does.

        • Xena says:

          @grey winter sky. You’re more than welcomed for the link to the transcript.

          I got the feeling that Hannity really doesn’t believe fogen’s story …

          Include O’Mara in that number, because there were times his facial expressions demonstrated that GZ was saying things that he did not anticipate hearing.

          Reasonable logic says that the State is using that interview as leverage in ShelLIE’s perjury case. The State may want her to tell what she saw and heard because GZ clearly told Hannity that THEY always go grocery shopping on Sunday evenings.

      • Jun…DeeDee’s phone conversation cut off at—- 7:16
        The 911 call connected at—————————- 7:16:11
        The fatal shot was heard at————————– 7:16:56
        In the Hannity interview fogen said the police
        came 15 to 30 seconds after he shot Trayvon- 7:17:11-7:17:26
        It’s approximently 1minute 26 seconds that all this took place. I would say that the “struggle” began immediately after Trayvon’s phone cut off and lasted for no longer than 11 seconds when the earwitness called 911 after she heard screaming. That’s why I also believe that fogenocchio’s boo-boos happened before he confronted Trayvon (running into a tree) or that they were self-inflicted right after he shot Trayvon (using his fingernails to cause the scratches….which is what I believe). There was absolutely no time for any head pounding in that brief period of time.

        • Xena says:

          @grey winter sky

          That’s why I also believe that fogenocchio’s boo-boos happened before he confronted Trayvon (running into a tree) or that they were self-inflicted right after he shot Trayvon (using his fingernails to cause the scratches….which is what I believe).

          The photos of GZ taken in the police station show that the scratches on his face had already scalped. Those were old scratches. I wish that someone saw GZ the Friday and/or Saturday before that Sunday evening, because I suspect he got in a fight then. All it took for those boo-boos to bleed was picking at the scalps.

      • bettykath says:

        Something to consider: As you point out DeeDee’s phone company doesn’t record seconds on the phone bill. It “rounds” to minutes. Corporate mindset would have start of call at the preceding minute and the end of call at the next minute. For example if the call started at 7:15:30, it would be recorded at 7:15. If it ended at 7:15:30, it would be recorded at 7:16. So the 11 seconds between the recorded end of the call and the beginning of the 911 call is just the least amount of time. It could have been at least up to 30 seconds more. Maybe more depending on the exact algorithm used by T-Mobile.

      • FactsFirst says:

        The treeFogenNuts believe that when DeeDee called back, she recorded Trayvon last and final screems… I believe thats the reason forgen/O’Mara asked for all the recordings from DeeDee’s phone…

    • Jun says:

      Listening to that makes me want to kick both Fogenhats’ dad and his lying conniving brother in the teeth

      Imma go meditate and cleanse my soul after hearing this tape

      I dont know how they can both keep lying after hearing this 17 year old teenage kid scream and plead for his life because their family member was terrorizing this kid

      RIP Kid ❤

      I also agree that Deedee should be given the same rights as Fogenhats' family members, who lied for him at the first bond hearing, while Fogenhats added more lying when he took the stand

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Hahaha. Maybe we start tossing around the idea that there are 2 ShelLIEs, and 2 Papa Zims, because we didn’t see who was on the phone testifying and it could have been anybody — and Osterman could have coached them on what to say. Turn-around is a bitch. 🙂

  42. Jun says:

    I never been asked to be on jury duty ever

    I agree to it but the main factor is that the juror should be objective and follow the facts and the law and morals and be reasonable

  43. Dennis says:

    I had to go do federal jury duty and made $85 for the only day I had to show up. It was much better than doing my normal job of manual labor, and I made the same amount of money. Anyone who tries to weasel out of jury duty is a deadbeat with no care for the legal system.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Oh please. How ridiculous. In the places I lived in the SW, you were paid NOTHING to some ridiculously nominal pay for jury duty. If you were lucky, you might have a job that would pay some nominal amount if you were called, much less than your normal pay. One job I had paid something like $7 a day. It was absolutely impossible for me to schedule my life as a single mom around jury duty and miss full pay while I was doing it. Mouths to feed. It wouldn’t have been particularly good for my employer either. I would have scheduled vacation days around it if I could have been guaranteed particular days, but there are no guarantees. I don’t think you should make such blanket judgements about other people’s situations or reasons for not responding to jury calls. There are plenty of folks eager and willing and with the ability who show up. Why be so judgemental and call names?

      • Dennis says:

        If the legal system isn’t compensating you enough for missing work, that is a problem you need to take up with the legal system. I agree it isn’t fair to force anyone to miss work and not be compensated the full amount that they would have made working that day.

        • Xena says:

          @Dennis. There are employers who have a policy that when an employee is called for jury duty, they bring the check to personnel or HR, and the company pays them for the entire time at their regular wages. Other employers make-up the difference between what is paid for jury duty and actual wages.

          If employers do not have such policies, those concerned about lost wages should say so when they are called for jury duty. The government can summoned for jury duty, but citizens should not be financially harmed in order to serve.

      • kimmi says:

        One of the times I was called for jury duty (years ago), financial hardship was not considered an acceptable excuse.

      • kimmi says:

        Jurors were paid $15/day plus milage back then. (mid-
        80’s) I was single, self supporting, and my employer did not reimburse the difference.

        I wanted to serve, but financially it was going to be a huge financial strain. The case was expected to last 2-3 weeks. Unfortunately, I was happy when I was excused.

        It was an auto accident case against the County Road Commission on a road that had problems.

        I was asked, “Can you be an impartial juror?”
        I responded, “Did the accident occur before or after they widened Warren Rd?”

        Everyone in the courtroom was thrown out!

        I wasn’t able to be impartial if the accident occured before they widened the road, it was dangerous!

  44. colin black says:

    Re whom would prefer a change of venue I mean between Prosecution an Defence.
    I M O The defence will want to stay put an have the jury sequestered.
    A sequetered jury can be an angry jury an that anger gets directed towards authorites ie the State.

  45. colin black says:

    Will there be a change of venue motion?
    If so whom would prefer a change of venue.
    Or an out of County Jurours bussed in.
    An will it be a sequestered
    panel of Jurours an alternates?

  46. kindheart101 says:

    In South Carolina. (At least my county) If you are a no show for jury duty. You have to have called in a reason, i.e…job, kids, health, hardship, etc., and be removed from the list at least two weeks prior to the screening. If there is no notice of removal, a bench warrant is immediately issued for anyone that did not show. Unless you could prove something like: you were in the hospital, out of work sick, a child became sick, or something drastic, unforeseen, you are in deep dooky! The Sheriffs Department will hunt you down, and you wind up before the Magistrate facing a $500.00 fine or several days in jail, or both! I have actually heard of people, on the local news, that were pulled over for a traffic violation, and taken into custody for not reporting for jury duty months before!

    • Dennis says:

      Anyone who fails to report and does not have a doctor’s note should be charged with contempt of court. I am perfectly fine with no-shows ending up with a criminal record for the rest of their days.

      • kindheart101 says:

        I do have to say the court is pretty lenient here Dennis. They will let Mothers with small children, the elderly, and those that are ill, or disabled, relinquish having to attend. But they STILL better notify the court! And, it is an employers DUTY, in this county, that they have to allow the employee to attend, and they must still pay them!

        I agree with you Dennis. It is a duty. And if you don’t show, it’s contempt. And they take it very personally here!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s a shit attitude. Why should anyone end up with a criminal record over not reporting for jury duty to please you, Dennis?

      • aussie says:

        Here in Australia they save themselves a lot of hassle by doing everything by mail. Everyone of course is on the electoral roll to vote, as being enrolled is compulsory. They mail a notice to say you’re in line for jury duty. There is a big list of exemptions you may tick and send it back.

        If you don’t return the exemption form, you may be called for duty in the next 2 or 3 years. You get a chance to say why you can’t go. If you don’t reply and don’t turn up, eventually you just get a small fine through the mail.

        Then the trouble starts: if you don’t pay the fine you lose your driving licence and right to register a vehicle, until you pay up. This applies to all Government fines. A few years ago they realised a lot of people were driving illegally because they could not afford the fines (eg pensioners etc) so now they return the driving rights if the person makes regular small payments. (With people on any kind of welfare this is easy, too, as they just take it out of their payments up front).

        Simple streamlined system that ends up collecting enough money to pay for the cost of administering it.

      • Dennis says:

        @Two sides to a story

        I’m sorry that I actually five two shits about our legal system. People that are summoned for jury duty need to show up. Failing to serve your country is a crime. People have been criminalized for much less offenses like marijuana posession. If you are so smart, then tell us why people that do not show up to jury duty end up in jail? You don’t go to jail unless you have committed a crime!

      • aussie says:

        Realistically, Dennis, a lot of people are in jail who didn’t commit a crime. Including a lot in there for “possession” when they were just set up, and/or the laboratory cheated the results.

        Would you agree to a law that says unpaid parking fines should land you in jail? and that person would be a criminal?

        Lighten up a bit.

  47. Xena says:

    In Boone County, IL, if you are summoned for jury duty and fail to appear, the sheriff comes out with a summons for the person to appear in court and answer why they should not be held in contempt. Actually, even if you do appear, the sheriff might come out with a summons on a Rule To Show Cause anyway. They are not good with keeping records there.

    • damn, Sherriff may not have much do I take it? lol

      • Xena says:


        damn, Sherriff may not have much do I take it? lol

        Boone County, IL is strange. It’s one of those counties where a person who has been drinking does not drive, but is arrested anyway for public intoxication when walking home.

        Take a look at some of the mugshots of arrests in Boone County and the charges.

      • kindheart101 says:


        Oh my. Lots of people arrested for sex crimes. Wow

        There are a lot arrested here for drugs. Both taking them, and making them. 😦

        • Xena says:

          @kindheart101. Drugs follow a close second for arrests in Boone County. There was a club in Boone County known for patrons selling drugs. The Sheriff didn’t bother making arrests, just sat outside and harassed the patrons and owners until the place closed down.

          • kindheart101 says:

            There have been several large busts in the last few years of huge Meth Labs here. I just shake my head. I swear, I don’t know what this world is coming to.

      • seallison says:

        Did you see the news coming from Illinois about a suspected meth lab. Cops went out in full force after reports that the home was a meth lab and it turned out to be a woman processing maple syrup from her trees. LOL

      • Xena says:


        Did you see the news coming from Illinois about a suspected meth lab.

        Yes, I did. It was probably someone mad at the couple who made a false police report.

  48. Malisha says:

    I have never been seated on a jury although every time I got the notice I showed up. Lawyers I know and respect have told me, “If you seem to be the kind of person who will stick by your opinion regardless of pressure, NOBODY wants you on a jury, neither prosecution NOR defense.” They guessed that was why I was never seated.

    One time my experience before being knocked off the panel on a peremptory was quite interesting. The judge asked everybody in the pool who had ever been convicted of a felony to raise their hands and I raised mine. I was convicted of a felony but never charged with a felony — one of those insane judge-made non-events that would never be possible if judges had to do things by the book, but go figure. Naturally, every chance I get, I refer to it, hoping that at some point I can get it into play in a litigation that will give me the chance to bring a habeas or coram nobis or something and get it sub judice. Anyway, the judge has me called up to the bench and asks, “What felony were you convicted of?” I answer, “Your Honor, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals has declared it moot so I refuse to answer.” Silence. I can hear the rage bubbling up under the judge’s brush cut. Prosecutor looks like he smelled something disagreeable. Defense counsel looks like she forgot where she put her glasses. Judge says, “I don’t care about the Fourth Circuit; tell me the charge.” I answer, “Your Honor, if it is moot that I was convicted of a felony, then it cannot make any difference before this Court what felony it was.” He wanted to brain me. I wanted him to engage. He says, “I can order you to answer and I can hold you in contempt for refusing.” I say, “Please do, Your Honor, so that I can file a habeas corpus bringing the issue before the court and proving that it is not in fact moot.”

    Prosecutor thinks he has a little gift for the judge, who at this moment is looking up the law on having a juror drawn and quartered. Prosecutor says, “Mrs. Name-Omitted, it seems like you have had an experience with the court system that has made you bitter and in that regard it would seem that you might not be able to judge this case fairly, wouldn’t you agree?” I turn to him sweetly and refuse to let him find the loophole: “Oh no, Mr. Prosecutor, on the contrary. I believe in the system which is exactly why I would make an impartial juror, and it is also why I will not answer a question when the answer is in fact moot, according to the honored jurists of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals.”

    They seated me and the prosecutor had to use one of his peremptories to get me off that panel. He was not as dumb as he looked.

    • kindheart101 says:


      ROFLLLLLLLL You may be a Mrs…….but me tinks you have some pretty big Cojones!!!!!!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Fabulous story. I hope you’re publishing your memoir!

    • naughty!! LOL Malisha some people may call you a hellcat!!

    • Tommy's Mom says:

      Now that’s a great story!

      • Malisha says:

        Here’s the follow-up story. In the jury pool room with me was a guy named Santiago Testa who was dressed in about $2,000 and that was back in the early 90s. Alligator shoes. Pigskin brief case. Cell phone with bells and whistles long before anybody (but drug dealers) had them. Armani suit. $100 haircut. I mean!

        After I had “fronted off” the judge, the next thing they did was start calling names and the people would go up to the bench and answer some questions. This guy Testa had gotten on a phone call while we were all waiting, and when the judge called his name (grossly mispronouncing it as “San Diego Tezza” by the way) he kept chatting, looking engrossed. The guy to his right and the guy to his left tried to let him know he was being summoned but he was too “into” his private conversation to notice. The judge called it again. The crowd prickled. Then the Bailiff came over and said, “Are you San Diego Tezzer?” He looks up and says…and says…get this: “Just a minute, I’m on the phone.”

        Judge had a major meltdown. Starts yelling, “You’re not on the phone in MY COURTROOM you’re OFF THAT PHONE NOW in MY COURTROOM!” and Testa says to his conversant: “Just a minute, OK?” and says, “What?”

        OMDL, and the judge went totally f*cking bonkers and was threatening Testa with jail and contempt and obstruction and felonious dereliction and the guy then had to SAUNTER up to the Bench and he couldn’t manage to LOOK RESPECTFUL. So every other prospective juror in the room was either fighting laughter while fearing consequences or staring at this developing catastrophe in disbelief.

        In the end, in the hallway after the jury was seated, Testa swaggers off muttering, “I don’t know why he had a bug up HIS ass.”

        “The Most Unforgettable Character.” Honorable Mention.

  49. I didn’t know you could simply blow off jury duty. several years ago I got a notice ( it was after i’d watched the OJ trial ) so I couldn’t wait to go! I was so excited I left early ( and it’s hard to get me to do anything early) But as I turn to get on 95 I realized I left my little badge at home!

    so I turned to go back to get it, but I ended up about 10 min. late!
    when I was walking back out of the room I was kinda sniveling and a guy working there asked what was wrong.
    I told him I was dying to be on a jury and I almost made it on time if only I hadn’t forgotten my little clip and badge thing that came with the summons.. he said I coulda came w/o it and in fact I could come down any time I wanted to!!
    I went down there about 3 times w/I about 2-3 month period but was always dismissed. I’ve only been questioned once and I was still dismissed.

    makes me sick b/c I want to be on a jury but if I ever get questioned again I know they will dismiss me!

    • @Prof, i’m reposting this b/c hopefully we can find out WTF is going on here! Why would omar think he can get the immunity and trial to run concurrently?

      Can someone please tell us how likely it would be that gz would be given even MORE special treatment by allowing the immunity hearing and trial simultaneously?? has anyone else been allowed to do this? and what can we do to prevent this? because i damn sure don’t want him to have this advantage!

      AND IT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE in all kinds of ways, one being financially, and another is the same thing that OS article was talking about shifting the burden back to the state in front of the jury!!!!

      BTW, is that what this David case did?? he had them both at the same time???

      • kindheart101 says:

        Great post Shannoninmiami.

        I had a friend drive up and spend Friday and Saturday with me. We talked about that a lot. We feel the same way. An immunity hearing is on the back of the defense to prove, the client is innocent, or shouldn’t be charged. I was furious when I heard that also. I don’t know how that would, or could work. But at least for me, it would take away from the facts of the case, and give the murderer an unfair advantage.

      • kimmi says:

        Is it just me, or does it seem like Fogen is afforded more special treatment/advantages than the ‘average Joe’ in this case?
        (Besides the begging site?)

      • kimmi says:

        Or shoud I have said the average JoeG?

    • I know Kindheart, i’m not so subtlety hoping Prof will tell us what he thinks because I can’t believe no one hasn’t already put this to rest!
      -if they did address this I missed it please tell me where it is??

      • kindheart101 says:

        I haven’t seen it hon. I was really pizzed when I heard that! I would like to smack that fat face, and be able to watch him drug out of the court…………..IN PERSON! I am so sick of this crap!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Of course they dismiss you, you show too much intelligence. One side or the other fears critical thinkers, depending on who has the losing case. Do you think MOM would want you on his jury? No way, he needs a jury panel with carrots, cabbages, tomatoes, potatoes and string beans. In short a jury of vegetables! They’re his only hope.

    • racerrodig says:

      In NJ they will suspend you license for failure to show up.

  50. Two sides to a story says:

    Sadly, I’ve not been able to respond when I’ve been called. Had minor children, job, too many financial obstacles to miss work. Otherwise, I would have been interested.

    How long do you think Fogen’s trial will last?

  51. bettykath says:

    hmmm, no consequences for ignoring a jury summons. Didn’t know that was an option.

    I’ve rec’d 3-4 notices in the last 20 years. Always showed up. Never had to serve. Most were settled after the jury call went out. One had a jury but they had 12 plus alternates before it was my turn to tell them I realized based on questions asked that I shouldn’t serve due to prejudice.

    I had been out of town and hadn’t caught up on local news, but I was in town, a block away, when my elderly aunt’s apartment house caught fire and she was displaced. Her son and my brother saw the evidence of an accelerant when they emptied her 3rd floor apartment. The woman was convicted of arson and sent to prison. She is so lucky that the fire house was only one block away. It was the firefighters that got my aunt out her apartment out the back fire escape. If she had been able to leave on her own, she would have opened the front door to smoke and flames and very possibly died in the fire.

  52. operacarla says:

    Justice for Trayvon!!!
    Courage for DeeDee!!!!

  53. racerrodig says:

    I report every year I get a notice. The 2 times I got in the jury box with the others, I was called out by the Judge. Seems I had been an expert in civil cases heard before both of them.

    I told them both and the attorneys I could be impartial…..they weren’t buying it.

    However every time I report, which has been at least 20 times there are at least 200 people for each case. All but one of the lawyers I do work for has me at his table to write questions he can ask any potential juror. If the OPCO has an issue I sit in the gallery and text him. I have always been a Plaintiffs expert and the type of juror the Plaintiff wants is that mom that did get ripped off, whereas as the guy who thinks he’s “Mr. Mechanic” is the last guy. Those with good educations, engineers, tech people are best. They will listen !!

    Sometimes they seat 6 and 2 alternates in less than an hour, sometimes it takes all day. I can’t imagine a case like this.

    I think people are under the misunderstanding that all 500 get questioned……If they both parties are satisfied at the 50 mark..everyone else gets a thank you, now go home.

    Car stuff may seem like small potatoes but consider a rip off repair like the one we have now of $15,000.00, which trebled is $60,000.00 plus all legal costs and my fees…..!!!!

    • abbyj says:

      Hello Racer, Interesting post you’ve written here, and you have had a rich experience in observing the voir dire process, from what I gather. The explanations you provide are great to read, particularly your role in texting potential questions from the gallery.

      You mention those “with good educations as making up the best juries, and your comment left me wondering about the impression you have regarding the overall educational and native intelligence of many jurors these days–the general dumbing-down of juries for many reasons. After the verdicts in the OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony cases, I was left with some despair as to the quality of jurors and their ability to process complex information during a trial. Racer, what are your thoughts on this concern? Thanks very much.

      • racerrodig says:

        The OJ case had far to many subplots to use as a true indicator. Police corruption, grossly mishandles evidence, Rodney King, and all that. Not to mention that as the Professor indicated, all of those things = reasonable doubt.

        Casey Anthony is a mystery to me. The jury knew she did it or was very involved as far as I can tell. I think they just went down the road that the state didn’t prove she did it the way the state laid it out. I think, and could be wrong, that the jury went down the “..connect the dots EXACTLY like this and when a few were just out of line, they didn’t allow for any leeway. To me that goes from reasonable doubt to 100 % unassailable.

        In just about every civil case, we look for smart people who know how to look at logic, have common sense and appear to have a willingness to learn. The only exception we see are nurses. We can’t figure this out but most nurses always want to go 180 from all the other jurors, no matter how clear cut the evidence and testimony is. After one trial about 4 years ago I was talking to one of the jurors afterwards and he stated they were 5 – 1 in favor of our client, then reversed to see what Miss Nurse would do, before a final vote and she flipped to make it
        5 – 1 the opposite !! Then they took a final vote and when it was back to 5 – 1 , and it doesn’t have to be unanimous in a civil case, she wanted to review something so she could go back….

        I have read where both sides look for those who will be easily swayed in criminal cases but that makes no sense to me. I cite the movie “12 Angry Men” as an example on things are not what they appear. (LLMPapa would play the Henry Fonda role)

        When I assist in voir dire, it is always something small that makes me say “…ask more questions, detail a car issue, detail a warranty issue, or just “…next…” When there is one I love. it’s almost always a major thing I see. Those in the technical field are the best. Single mom’s are great….usually budget minded, have been ripped off or at least feel that way, willing to “help” others and such.

        With that, and these are civil cases, my common sense tell me that the prosecution would want similar traits and the defense would want uneducated, low income, racist, bigoted individuals that will buy “…that poor Fogen..” Since there is to be a jury of
        “…your peers…” where will they find 6 Afro – Peruvian, racist, chronically un / underemployed, underachieving, racist, lying clowns ??

        Since this is going to be in Seminole County, I’m quite sure there will be a few black jury members. O’ Mara will really ramp up the garbage I’m sure, but he won’t get 6 “Afro – Peruvian…”

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