Open Thread: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

I will be running errands until late afternoon or early evening and will check-in when I return.


1,424 Responses to Open Thread: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    I’ve just been cruising around some blogs and I get that the saner GZ supporters are focusing on what GZ knew about crime in the neighborhood as justifying what he did that night. Obviously none of what GZ knew about crime in the neighborhood makes it legal or even understandable that he would kill anyone because of it.

    It is made clear to NW’ers that they just don’t have that power, and that by carrying a firearm they are creating an unwanted dangerous situation for both themselves and the suspects or subjects. So, with no powers to legally detain, investigate, follow or confront, and having been warned that it is dangerous to do so. How would a NW ever be in a situation where he or she would have to kill anyone?

    Clearly GZ, using his knowledge of crime in the neighborhood, decides that it’s time he put himself in harms way. Unfortunately he picks an innocent law abiding child and imagines himself going up against a dangerous arch criminal. GZ races after the fleeing child he has frightened by his behavior, he catches him, questions him, hurts him and shoots him, then concocts a wild story of eminent lethal danger, at the hands of an unarmed child. To bolster his claim GZ points to the weapon he brought with him and claims that the child was intending to use his weapon against him.

    Fortunately the law has proscribed the use of any claim, that a weapon a person carries to a confrontation, as being a defense for having to kill that person. Thus, if GZ carried a weapon and that weapon somehow got within Trayvon’s reach. GZ would have to answer for it, since he would not be excused for killing to prevent his weapon from being taken away.

    GZ’s attorney’s may say whatever they want to say, but the law says no George, you cannot claim self defense, because you feared your weapon might have been taken away. My guess is had you been aware of this law, you’d probably have realized it would have been better for you to stay in your truck.

    Instead, you now face life in prison for killing an innocent kid, you should never have come into contact with, unless he could have broken into your truck before the police could get there.

    Now the jurors will be told that, they may not consider your claims that Trayvon was going for your gun, as a reason to grant your self defense claims. So, now you must rely on what other claims you have left. But this is why your attorneys will never file for an immunity/ SYG hearing. They know that the laws are against you.

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie Starr

      Fortunately the law has proscribed the use of any claim, that a weapon a person carries to a confrontation, as being a defense for having to kill that person. Thus, if GZ carried a weapon and that weapon somehow got within Trayvon’s reach. GZ would have to answer for it, since he would not be excused for killing to prevent his weapon from being taken away.

      Absolutely!! Thanks for the excellent comment, Lonnie. It agrees with the law and case decisions.

      Trevor Dooley tried making a defense that David James went for his gun, compelling Dooley to get to it first so James wouldn’t shoot and kill him. The jury decided that James saw Dooley as a threat because Dooley had a gun. Dooley was found guilty as charged of manslaughter.

    • racerrodig says:

      As Always…..well said.

  2. xy11xy says:

    Wow…that hearing today was on fire. Isn’t it outrageous that Defense wants to violate Crump/Martin attorney-client privilege?

    Blackwell more than earned his fee today.

    • racerrodig says:

      1406 commenst !! Way to go Gang !!

      There was no sound on the live feed…I’ll have to watch the “rerun”

      I’ve said this since last year & it’s looking more obvious everyday. They are in wayyyyyy over their heads, and it’s not like they have a good case and a credible client. Losers all the way around.

  3. Lonnie Starr says:

    New Forensic Analysis Makes Damning Conclusions For George Zimmerman

    • Jun says:

      Michael Knox is full of crap

      The trajectory does not match his conclusion, nor does his test he did

      a) He held a piece of carboard with a shirt on top of it. If he had not held the piece in front of it, the blast from the gun would have blown the cardboard piece with Tshirt on it, onto the target behind it.

      b) The hoodie and undershirt had to be forcefully pulled down and to the left to line up with the bullet hole, considering it is a str8 front to back trajectory, no angles whatsoever

      c) Witness 18, witness 3, Mary Cutcher & Selma, all stated they saw the defendant simply rise off of Trayvon after the shot. W18 saw it from the confrontation onward, whereby she stated she could tell the young boy was in trouble, and that the adult was the one controlling the situation, and she could tell by the sound of the voices. Combine that with w8 testimony, and the defendant also had the jump on Trayvon.

      Gravity will not explain this away

  4. ay2z says:

    update for the wife’s perjury case, docket sounding date looks like the 19th now, with a waiver of appearance.

    What is the importance of this case to the murder case for her husband? MOM said in a hearing, that the lying to the court had nothing to do with his client.

    Is she out in the cold and on her own with this?


    (there’s also a waiver for the 20th date, one or the other dates is correct, thinking it’s Tuesday afternoon)

    • Jun says:

      Well, Omara’s just talking out his culo

      Fogenhats orchestrated and masterminded the whole thing

    • racerrodig says:

      Unless he has a jury of 6 Afro – Peruvian, lying, un / underemployed, bigoted, racist bastards (hey, a jury of his peers) they won’t buy it. I’m sure he’ll have a few intelligent souls with the ability to absorb knowledge, a few with outstanding common sense and I’m sure in Seminole Count a few intelligent black people, after all…….weren’t they supposed to have a March of all his black friends and that token Lilly white guy……Osterman ????

  5. colin black says:

    Interesting, didn’t know that. Anybody?


    Dont know to whom he was referring?

    Smith or he seemed to think he charmed an had some sort of bond with Officer Singleton.
    As far as I know she was a former narcotics det.
    An in some refrence to something written emailed or txt on his phone there were some quotes attributed to him.

    One I think was something his father says or said.
    Think it was about haveing the press kicked out of the retreat.
    An he agrees?

    Although foggen had already fled the retreat.
    An something about him saying that he hadnt been advised through the process by a former narcotics officer.
    Cos if he had he would have mentioned it.

    Anyway it wasnt even made clear whom thease messages from foggen were to or for what reason

  6. pat deadder says:

    Can I ask a question on a different subject.In one of fogen’s jailhouse calls with SZ he asks her if she called his contact at FDLE.She says she did and he was very nice.This was probably answered long ago but I’m curious as to who it was.You are all amazing. thank you

  7. annahkonda says:

    Yep, some folks will deny their heritage when it is to their advantage. I refer you to ‘Secrets Uncovered….J. Edgar Hoover Passing For White’ by Millie McGee.

  8. colin black says:

    Two sides to a story says:

    February 17, 2013 at 1:34 am

    I don’t think Piers is anti-American at all. I think he’s quite razzle-dazzled and almost red-white-&blue patriotic. I think he’s simply anti-gun and wants to bring a little more Brit-style civility to American life

    Ask any resident of the UK

    Peirs Morgan is a 22 carrat a hole an there were celebrations throughout the land when America was dumb enough to some how thing he was prime time.

    He was despised in the UK an was nothing more than a sleeexe digging hack .
    Editor of the now defunct News Of the World an other red tops like the Dailt Mirror. he was a continual self promintinng smug git.Self recomendation.
    Is realy no recomendation.
    At the time he was sacked by the news of the world
    The only paper in fleet street whom would touch him was the failing Dail Mirror.

    At the time the huge stories makeing headlines wer the atrousites at Abu Grhb an Iraqi Prisons being run by Americans.
    T1orture an humilliation of detainees.Britisg forces were not excempt from thease barbaric atroucites .

    Peirs Morgan was desprate for some of the action an sleaze to boost sales.
    So he knowingly used fraudulent photos staged by guys wearing uniforms probably aquired at an army navy out let an some Asian Lad acting as the abused prisoners Iraqis.
    Blindfolded an bacicly staged as similar to the photos that shoched thhe world at Abhu Grab with hoods torture ect
    But it was all FAKE FAKE FAKE.

    By the way the culture of hacking phones an spying on celebs vvoicemaes ect wich deventualllly destroyed the news of the world .
    Was started by Peirs Morgan.
    This is not conjecture thr prick admittts it in his Autobiographyy phone hacking that is.
    Written before the scandal broke when he was exiled from fleet street in fact he was a whistle blower on a practice he created .
    Thats low .

    Because once the farce of the faked photos of prisoner abuse front page scandal.
    He himself became the front page scandal.
    An that was it his career in the press as a jourlist was ruined.
    He couldnt get arrested never mind a job.

    Then a weird thing started to happen.
    He began to carve out a second career as a pundit on Britians got Talent ,

    A you guesed it Talent show with him Simon Cowel an someother z lister as judges.
    Done a couple of soft soft ball interveiws with some celebs .

    An bam out of the blue we hear he is being whisked over to America to fill one of there prestige spots.
    Thought it was joke to be honest with you but no.
    It was just another one of those only in America momments.
    Your stuck with him now we dont want him back an he will never leave .
    Just because he has an accent he is about as barrow boy street corner want to by some dirty post cards as they come.

    • ay2z says:

      Red white and blue patriot? Yes, for good reason as the British flag is also, red, white and blue. 😉

    • Colin we Americans are totally mesmerized by Brits!
      There’s the accent and suave sophistication and intellectual English gentleman perception! lol

      Bring a thug from say seven sisters in Tottenham or a gangster from south end or even some hick country boy and dress him up in a nice suit and once he starts talking we couldn’t pick a prince from a pauper! LOLO

    • Jun says:

      Piers is not anti-American

      It is just nonsense from a bunch of rednecks

      I like Piers

      He’s very cool and the British accent is cool to listen too

      He just stated that there should be better gun control

      If you look at recent news, alot of the recent shootings are from legally acquired guns

      • Looolooo says:

        Jun…… Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with you on PM not being anti-American. Possibly due to your being Canadian you’re desensitized and accustomed to negative attitudes in regards to the U.S. I say that because as an American married to a Canadian, who lived for 3 years in Toronto, I suffered through continuous anti-American conversations, TV shows, news papers, televised government hearings, magazines, etc. My husband once bought a small paper back book (in Canada) about an American topic, which had insulting and anti-American headings and statements on the cover, and he seemed genuinly confussed as to why I questioned him about giving me a book that insults me and my fellow Americans. He didn’t see it at all that way. He simply thought that it was funny. About a year later, I was on my monthly cross-border shopping trip in NY when I happend upon the exact same book, cover and all. With the exception of ALL of the insulting and anti-American rhetoric. I did further research, and found that the insulting copies were printed/bound in Canada, and the non-insulting ones in the U.S.. I began to notice that that was a very common literary practice in Canada. Sorry, Jun, but anti-Americanism in Canada (and elsewhere) is nauseatingly rampant. However, I am NOT in any way insinuating that you habor any anti-American leanings. 🙂

        • cielo62 says:

          LoooLooo~ Based on my travels around a limited part of the world (Europe,  Colombia and Israel) Americans are very much despised world-wide. The “myth” of the Ugly American was never a myth. Americans are perceived to be very arrogant, even when travelling in other people’s countries. I’m not surprised at all. Sometimes, I even agree. I’ve heard too many people refuse to learn another language based on the fact that American Dollars TALK; no need to learn the local lingo. It was pretty ironic that the Taj Mahal now refuses American dollars, since it’s become so much weaker against the rupi.

      • Jun says:

        I do not feel Canada is anti-American

    • Looolooo says:

      Colin……. I simply thought that he was a smug, arrogant, anti-American scumbag who wreaked havoc on UK celebs, but I had no idea just how dastardly and dispicable he really is. I too was shocked and disgusted when I read that CNN hired him to replace Larry King. However, I do agree with him on gun control. And nothing more.

  9. This woman put out another thought provoking video. it’s deep..

    • Rachael says:

      Oh wow, they don’t get more powerful than this!!

    • Xena says:

      Yep. GZ is toxic. xy11xy brings out important characteristics of GZ’s personality. His desire to burn down the lives of others is also evidenced on his MySpace page where he wrote about his “boys” violating law for him, doing a year, and not spilling the beans.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Extraordinary emotional appeal with a strong finale laced in fact.
        Fogen was definitely a liar, creep and a-hole … before he was a murderer.

        Wonder how well he’ll mix with the prison crowd?

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer

          Wonder how well he’ll mix with the prison crowd?

          IMO, not well. GZ is a small-time bully thug who has bullied people who he knows cannot or will not hurt him. With his daddy helping to get him out of trouble, GZ has not spent time with criminals who have paid the price for their violations of law. GZ is like a cheating basketball player who lowered the basket. Once he’s on a basketball court with people who have always played with the basket at the correct height, it will have an awakening.

          • racerrodig says:

            It’s a shame he didn’t live in my neighborhood. We didn’t take any crap from bullies and we knew how to level the playing field…….
            ….and the bullies.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Xena — have seen references to Fogbutt’s MySpace page. What was the “boys” thing all about?

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer. O’Mara’s verified GZ’s MySpace page where he wrote;

          “… I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hmmmm… The Ransburg/Burgess group were also on bikes. Is there a similarity there?

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            The Ransburg/Burgess group were also on bikes. Is there a similarity there?

            Thanks for pointing out another similarity between his “boys” in VA and the Ransburg/Burgess group. Early on, I said that GZ used NW as a cover-up for crime. In addition, it is still my strong opinion that GZ abandoned his home and went into hiding on 2/27/12 because he screwed up and was/is afraid of someone he knows and knew before 2/26/12. I keep hearing Osterman on Dr. Phil saying that ShelLIE called him and said GZ shot “somebody else.”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Gunshot wounds are reported to the police, so maybe someone can look through the police records to see what, if any gunshot wounds were reported over the previous several months? Who knows, might just get lucky and spot something that ties in.

          • racerrodig says:

            i remember reading somewhere back in June or July last year that there was somebody shot at the Retreat and there were no suspects. When Ostermans wife said SheLie said he shot “…somebody else….” the 1st thing I thought was….”that fits”

            Where I read it…..I can’t recall.

          • Malisha filed a public records request with SPD. She found an ambiguous reference to a shooting in the records. IIRC, she contacted the records custodian to find out if that shooting was a reference to Trayvon’s death or to some other shooting. I believe the final answer was that it was not a reference to the Trayvon shooting.

            Someone in the RTL called 911 on a different date and reported hearing a shot fired. No one else called and the police were unable to confirm that a shot was fired.

          • racerrodig says:

            I didn’t put anymore into it than “…ok, that makes sense…” but I never saw anything official that someone was shot, a gunshot.
            Maybe Fogen had an accidental discharge, maybe somebody tossed a lit M – 80 on the ground…who knows.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes that’s a problem, we read so much from links we get from everywhere. But without a theory that assists in recognizing the significance of much, we move on without a note, only to realize later that there is some theory that it would have been a neat fit with.

            Do you remember anything about information it was surrounded by? What else you might have been looking at at the time?

          • racerrodig says:

            I have no idea where I read it, but others read it as well. We do know Sondra Osterman said “…shot someone else…”

        • racerrodig says:

          He talks like a thug and tells about his criminal activity and getting out of it. THEN…..he goes into the “…wannabe thugs..” Huh ??

          • Xena says:


            THEN…..he goes into the “…wannabe thugs..” Huh ??

            GZ was the role model thug, so of course he thought that Mexicans vandalizing cars were wannabe thugs.

          • racerrodig says:

            My bad I guess…I forgot what a role model he was.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks for link, Xena. Disgusting. Guess he’s getting his lard-ass pinched now, huh?

    • Malisha says:

      I love her style!

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks for listening, you ask? You are welcome, and I would offer my thanks and gratitude for this powerful statement.

      Thank you.

  10. I wonder if Prof. Leatherman is okay? This thread is getting kind of long.

  11. ay2z says:

    On media influence of juries. (Lyon is the sister of one of the lawyers on the Baez team in the above unnamed case)

    “While producing Race to Execution, it hit her, says filmmaker Rachel Lyon. … Lyon realized that the media’s role had fundamentally changed… the media had become an active participant in the judicial process, with its incessant reporting on crime—and excessive focus on the race of criminal defendants—influencing juries….”

    (BTW, just who is excessively focussing on the race of the criminal defendant? Not the state, not so much the media since the family cleared the record, only the defendant and his media machine have kept that going).

  12. ay2z says:

    looolooo, the media, the promos, talk about anything, do a dance, make a fool of yourself, anything, might be the theory behind the actions from twitter tirades to on air with comedians, albeit politically aware comedians.

    If we look closely at what ‘we’, as followers or participants in this, we might see a correlation to the media lessons of Baez and his ‘consortium’ that offered, if you recall, to fully pay for this killer’s defense, lock, stock and Baez.

    The correlation may be in the area of allowing the killer’s lawyer to provide ‘evidence’, bonefide evidence by the lawyer’s words and only by the lawyer’s words in opening statement or argument.

    Not possible? Not ‘evidence’ people will claim? Sure it is when the jury, duly advised that what a lawyer says is ‘not evidence’ and still considers the words of the defendant who never takes the stand.

    The lawyer who did this in the famous recent case, explained on Friday last (while everyone was waiting for RJ later in the evening) that his words were evidence and that this type of ‘evidence’ was legitimate and offered in all candor and good faith, therefore it was as if his client took the stand herself, and spoke those same words.

    Are there any parallels with this case? Could be hints in MOM”s statements and the Z rhetoric, and what comes to mind, is MOM”s statement that his client has enough already out there in his statements, to not have to testify at his self-defense hearing, which the public now things of as SYG by any other name.

    Three police interviews, plus phone calls, plus the stress test interview of yet anohter account, plus the Zimmy-Hannity hour. And so the public (aka jury) will have things in the back of their mnd that they think they can put aside, but possibly will not.

    What have we heard repeatedly that could morph into evidence as stated only by MOM?

    MOM has already argued in court and to the media, that this is a brave new world for the justice system.

    An exemplar for MOM? Have they worked to assure defendant has enough published and broadcast widely in the media to avoid taking the stand for cross examination, shifting the burden to the state to disprove any SYG or self-defense claim? Have they used ‘us’?

    This is how the other trial defense explains the tactic.

  13. aussie says:

    Anyone heard from the Professor?

    He’s been gone a long time for “errands” and it’s dangerous out there on a bike. Is he ok?

    • Puck says:

      I’ve been wondering the same thing. The last time he disappeared for a while was due to some legal-ish issues.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      It’s 5 days now. On the other hand, he might see his blog as one of those electronic Japanese toys that beeps for attention at inopportune moments– or as a nest full of little birdies with mouths agape.

  14. Looolooo says:

    I wonder why RZJ is so keen on appearing on very media outlet known to man, but has never once appeared at any of GZ’s court hearings. It’s defianately not because of all the death threats that he and his family continue to receive. wink, wink.

  15. ay2z says:

    yep, hope so!

    Did you ever notice the little remark cut short by the shooter in one of the early interviews, where he’s describing going for his cellphone, starts to say he goes for it instinctually (gets out ‘instinc…’ before he cuts himself off for some reason.

    Instinctually going for the phone in a certain pocket? Why cut off the word in ref to the cell phone? Now, if he was about to say ‘going for his gun instinctually in a certain pocket’, he’d want to stop himself from admitting going for his gun because he said it was his phone he put in that pocket by some mistake..

    Something like, “I went for it instinctshhh…”

    Did he learn to practice his draw, was it automatic to go for it on his right side instinctually and will shooting range people and his buddy Mark, witness this?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Fogen went for his gun at that point.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Instinctually– something stinks iin there, usually.

        Anyone besides me notice how Jr jazzes up his pronunciation on big words? “Injusticeez” as if it were a Latin plural– gotta hand it to the guy, he can talk up a storm without conveying meaning; maybe that’s why Maher told him he has a big future in media.

  16. LLMPapa says:

    We all know that a crime-obsessed wannabe like Fogen had his gun drawn early on while he stalked around that night.

    Yep, we’re supposed to believe the Captain was out there….

    -In the pitch black dark of night

    -With a flashlight that didn’t work

    -Following a “real suspicious guy”, “up to no good”

    -Too afraid to give the dispatcher his address cause “I don’t know where this kid’s at”

    With his gun still in his britches cause he forgot he even had it?


    The jury’ll eat that chit up hook, line, and sinker, LOL LOL!

    • racerrodig says:

      I can’t wait until they confront him with the phone records & text messages.

      I’ll take “Incredibly Moronic Zidiots” for $5,000.00 Alex

      • ladystclaire says:

        @kllypyn, I thought that this could have been a possibility as well and, I mentioned it here a couple of months ago. Trayvon could have very well seen the real suspicious *thugs* in the act of thieving from one of the neighbors who they knew wouldn’t be at home that night.

        What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.

        Before all is said and done in this case, there will be other people implicated in this murder as well as using the NW program as a cover for *illegal* goings on at R@TL. it’s very obvious that witness 11 knows a *LOT* more than she is telling. her knowledge of this murder is very telling by her 911 call.

        • racerrodig says:

          “What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.”

          In the real world it’s called “…Casing the Joint..” and I’ll bet there could be a real legal issues with the HOA on that one, besides the other legal problems they have.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, I can’t wait either because, we will then get to see the real fogen in all of his glory. it’s his phone as well as his phone records that needs to be dismantled and not Trayvon’s. what is the reason for the defense to go after Trayvon’s phone any way and, what do they think they will find on there?

        • racerrodig says:

          Trayvon’s phone just gave confirmation that he was talking to Dee Dee. It matters not what GPS info there is. Trayvon, by law, was allowed to be anywhere. The defense is sadly mistaken thinking they are going to “connect the dots” by saying “Trayvon went over here, then there then attacked Fogen” Unless they have video and / or a few iron clad witnesses that state Black Dynamite Slim attacked and was about to kill Fogen….it’s all moot.

          I do know, from my connections, that there is stunning info as to who called who + or – an hour before and a for a few minutes after the shot. I have posted likely scenarios like this but I never get a denial of any kind from my guys.

          Typical (a call could be a text message also)

          Taaffe calls Fogen
          Fogen calls Osterman
          Fogen calls Taaffe
          Taaffe calls Fogen

          Fogen on the move

          Taaffe calls Fogen
          SheLie calls Fogen
          Fogen calls Osterman
          Fogen calls Taaffe
          Fogen calls SheLie
          Osterman calls Fogen

          NEN call

          Fogen calls Smith (“..the other officer I called” Hannity??)
          Smith calls Osterman

          Gunshot Murder

          Fogen calls Smith
          Fogen calls John W6??

          Osterman calls SheLie
          SheLie calls Taaffe

          My Federal Investigator friends never deny my scenario. They cannot tell me what is correct or add anything but there is no doubt this is damning stuff…….why would O’ Mara fight their release ?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            First let me say, what’s good for the geese is good for the gander. The defense is going to have to prove that GZ did not come out of his truck wearing those injuries. Obviously, he could have obtained them anywhere. They were never inspected by a medical professional, so their approximate age cannot be ascertained. Too bad GZ didn’t want to go to the ER and have himself checked an his claimed evidence inspected. So, his injuries are lost. He will not be able to enter them as evidence against Trayvon, because there is no foundation for them.

            In order for GZ to use any GPS data as a defense, he’s got to prove where he was at the time. If all he can do is prove that TM was moving from place to place, but he cannot prove that he was not in pursuit, then the GPS data means nothing. Of course, GZ can make exculpatory claims, but they would be seen as self serving and probably not true, because GZ is not above lying and has demonstrated that he has no qualms about doing so.

            Oh, before I forget, they confiscated a phone from Burgess, which they say was being used to move the stolen merchandise. I have to wonder what kind of data they obtained from that phone? After all, Ransburg, the guy who actually owned the back pack that the stolen 3,000 dollar laptop was found in, may be the same guy who just happens to meet Trayvon at the 711.

            Anyone want to bet that that data from that phone is “lost”?

          • racerrodig says:

            Anything is possible. Why is Ransberg painted as a 20 yr old homeowner ? who doesn’t drive…..rides a bike…..hangs with kids much younger ????????

            If that’s him at the 7-11 what’s up with that? His phone….That will be a fun time if that info is retrieved. The State is running this. not Sanford so if it’s there… !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Obviously this is just the result of poor reporting. The police report makes it clear that Ransberg is the white guy with two blacks and Burgess in tow. The reporter, on the other hand is just taking Ransberg’s word for it and putting down whatever he says.

            But, why would a 3,000 dollar laptop, that Burgess just stole yesterday, be found today in Ransberg’s backpack? Along with Dreamicis’s jewelry? Anyone think that Ransberg believed that Burgess actually owned any of that? Probably not, Burgess isn’t the type of person who would spend 3k on a computer, he probably only barely knows how to write. He doesn’t impress as computer literate or savvy. So, as you can see, little things do mean a lot.

            The police also confiscated a phone they say they believe was being used to move the stolen property. This, kind of thing, might very well be a nice tie in with GZ’s own modus operandi as postulated by others. It’s the poor reporting and data collection that’s vexing and obscuring the details.

          • racerrodig says:

            Reading that article was like reading Hitlers Bio and stopping when he was an alter boy and sang in the choir.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            It’s the poor reporting and data collection that’s vexing and obscuring the details.

            Reporters today do just that — report. There are very few investigative journalists. They already painted GZ as someone concerned about crime in his community without giving thought that based on him starting NW, the increase in break-in’s thereafter, and that GZ witnessed none of it, that he might have used NW as a cover-up for his own crime ring.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Reporters today do just that — report. There are very few investigative journalists. They already painted GZ as someone concerned about crime in his community without giving thought that based on him starting NW, the increase in break-in’s thereafter, and that GZ witnessed none of it, that he might have used NW as a cover-up for his own crime ring.

            Yeppers, that’s it! And, if one has a critical mind, they quickly realize that there is something wrong with the stories they’re telling. Because they not only don’t get the facts right, but they give reports that are internally inconsistent to boot.

            Also be wary, if you find documents that prove something or state a thing in a certain way, you had better take a copy of it or poof, next time you need it, it will either be altered or gone. The old SPD site was proud to declare that GZ had taken the 14 hour NW course. When that became at issue, they quickly re did the site and left that NW stuff out.

    • Jun says:

      This murder was based on the most stupidest reasoning of an illogical psychopath

      I honestly do not even know if Fogenhats felt the kid was suspicious and just had something against the kid or just wanted to target him out the blue

      All that is known is the kid walked home from 7-11 with Skittles, next thing you know, he is being stalked by some weirdo creep, who decides to scare and threaten the kid, attack him, and then kill the kid

      The saddest thing is Bill Maher and other media people honestly do not care and they just let his brother go on air telling lie after lie after lie

      I cant wait till this gets to court and everything is properly scrutinized and there is no more of this bloodclot nonsense

    • GZ states his motive for going after Trayvon before every statement he offers, from the NEN to his written statement, to all statements he gives to Singleton and Serento: “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

      Now couple this statement with the following facts: Many of the previous calls GZ made were on young black males; the one young black male who actually did anything was in jail on Feb. 26, so young black males were no longer a threat; there were relatively FEW “break-ins” that took place in that neighborhood in the recent past; and GZ already had his preconceived thoughts about Trayvon (azz holes, punks, on drugs or someting, up to no good).

      Motive is a major factor in many felony cases when determining outcomes. Looking at motive alone, we see no logical motive on the part of Trayvon to have attacked GZ. However, GZ, himself, stated his motive over and over and over, “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

      • Xena says:


        However, GZ, himself, stated his motive over and over and over, “We’ve had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood…”

        Indeed. GZ could not take credit for preventing them. His 2/2/12 call was the only call, since he organized NW, where he reported a suspicious person. Even then, the cops found that Taaffe had left his door unlocked and a window up.

        In December, GZ called because a server at his (non) graduation party expected to be paid. I wonder who that was? Burgess maybe? Then he called about kids playing in the street; then the guy in front of Taaffe’s house, then the suspicious guy who turned out to be Trayvon.

        Seeing nothing himself, he concluded that there were “a lot” of break-ins and that young Black males were the perpetrators. That, IMO, sounds like a Taaffe projection.

  17. ladystclaire says:

    Did you guys hear about the 60 yr old white man, who slapped a 19 month old baby boy on a Delta Airline and not only did he slap the kid, he also called him a “N” word. all of this just because the baby was crying when the plane was ascending. I would imagine this frightened the kid and that is why he was crying. this just goes to show that no matter the age, be it 19 months old or 17 years old, African American kids and adults are just not wanted in this country.

    Just go to YouTube and read some of the comments about this incident. they allow the “N” word to be used there like nobody’s business. the very first comment is very much out of line as well. how can some people be so cruel as to speak this way about a baby who did not deserve such treatment from this HEATHEN.

    • racerrodig says:

      Heathen would be putting it mildly. He’s lucky he didn’t get sky diving lessons from somebody. I show my son and his friends how to strike up a conversation with everybody, no matter race, creed, religion. It’s far easier to make friends and find a common topic than to harbor hate.

      Of course I’m the one who says FogenPhoole is more hateable every day, but he’s earned that one.

    • Xena says:

      @ladystclaire. Amazing that in over 200 yrs, bigoted racists can’t think of new words to use as racial slurs. Well, there goes the supreme race, uh?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s a well-known fact that babies’ and kids’ ears sometimes don’t adjust to the pressure changes when a plane gains altitude and it’s quite painful. It can happen to anyone. What an azz. Double azz. If I were the pilot I’d turn the plane around and deposit the offending adult on the ground.

      • Xena says:

        So, Air Marshall Osterman wasn’t on that plane to put the bigot in his place.

        • racerrodig says:

          He might have been on that flight, he just didn’t want to give away that he was that bigots “…token white friend…”

      • racerrodig says:

        Then again maybe an impromptu sky diving lesson was in order.

      • cielo62 says:

        It was during descent, and yes, he was cited, charged and arrested for simple assault. What bothers me is that he was fired before there was a trial or anything. “Presumed innocent” doesn’t matter in an age of instant communication. The lack of due process here and with Dorner really upset me.

        Sent from my iPod

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Cielo –

          Many corporations have requirements for executive performance on the books. Nobody is guaranteed their job outside the public sector (where political pressure can be applied) or by union protection.

          “Drunk racist child-hitter” is not a protected class like disability, age, race, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, gender … other classes on the books I can’t recall right now.

          If he had no employment contract, or if his employment contract had even the minimum performance requirement, he’s out the door. He may not even qualify for unemployment insurance if he was fired “for cause.” Public drunkenness, for example, is often in these contracts. Anything that debases the name of the corporation can be there. If he had NO contract, he’s an “at will” employee and he’s out of luck.

          Due process (from the Magna Carta) originally protected the individual agaist government excess, arbitrary action and persecution. Only if there is legislation protecting certain classifications does one get “due process” or if it’s in the union contract.

          The corporation can fire you, like you can “fire” the corporation (by quitting). No servitude on either side. They don’t have to keep you, and you don’t have to stay with them.

          • I’m with you PMom…

            As with the bit*h that posted a pic of her screaming and flipping the bird at the Tomb of the Unknowns…….WHILE she was on the clock.

            Research needs to be done to see if population growth exponentially increases the number of assh*les on the planet…As there seems to be more per capita today….than when I was a kid?

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom- thank you for the explanation. I thought that only in “right to work” states can you get canned like that. I read this case only superficially. But with my years of experience as a teacher, even the accusation of anything can get one fired. And believe me, people DO make false accusations for any number of reasons. Many good teachers dismissed or threatened by nothing more than an accusation. So I guess I projected that concern. Obviously once he’s found guilty, he gets all the just consequences. But until then, … Well, like I said I was projecting.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Cielo,

            Cielo, it’s good to “project” because those who project often do it from personal experience – experience so unique that others don’t have it, and so are inclined to slough such incidents off.

            Teachers and other who work with kids are under the spotlight. (THe floodlight!) I don’t envy the tightrope you must walk – no comforting hugs to kids; coping with vindictive kids that can turn on a teacher with false accusations from spite over a lower grade that “genius kid” thought he or she deserved and number of hazards that GOOD teachers face.

            In the face of that, at least in CA, the teachers’ union is strong and comes to the defense of teachers accused of maltreatment. I expect it’s no so great for teachers in TX.

            The corporate world does not have that sense of accountaability. Ethics flow from the top -and reflect the CEO or Chairman. In this case they made their judgment known imediately, and since the brutality toward the child was witnessed, is evident from cuts & bruises, and, I expect, the racial slurs were likely overheard as well – so the corporation was in a good position to cut this guy loose without fear of public backlash.

            The U.S. is almost unique worldwide in not placing restraints on executive termination. If the evidence were not there and witnessed, he could have an age-discrimination case against the corporation, but with the facts at hand his behavior is univerrsally rejected by the public. I note he was not traveling on business, so they avoided the thrat of litigation, but they still canned him.

            I don’t see how teachers cope with parents, the administration, and kids filled with a great sense of entitlement these days. The love of teaching must overpower your survival instinct!

            To warm a teacher’s heart, I’ll relate a story from years back (in the era when I was Methuselah’s daughter …) when I was absent-mindedly doodling in French class, at age 10. I loved drawing and bored by the class, and Monsieur Lalonde ordered me to stop drawing and pay attention. I was not a bratty kid, was a good student but for some reason decided to defy the man and kept on doodling. Mr. Lalonde walked to my desk and said, “If you keep on drawing, I weel peench the nose of your face!”

            At least I was savvy enough not to burst out laughing, but not savvy enough to quit drawing, and so, as promised, M. Lalonde gave my beaker a good Gallic twist. But I was stoic – he walked away and at that point I quit drawing (finally), but did not let on that Wow, that smarted! Almost end of story.

            In a few days, as you’d expect, the nose told the tale: it grew purple, blue,green amd Mum asked suspiciously, “What’s wrong with your nose???” Had to ‘fess up I had been snarky in class and so M. Lalonde pinched it. Mum gave me a grave look.

            And as it came to pass, a few days later she met M. Lalonde on the street, and he felt he had to explain/apologize to her. My mother just listened (fortunately I had not lied or embroidered the tale – all the parts fit.)

            When he finished, Mum looked him in the eye and said, “M. Lalonde – if she ever does that again, pinch HARDER!”

            Hey, they don’t make parents like that, these days, do they???

            Bless you, Cielo for your teaching career! I could not do it.

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! PirhanaMom- great story! I do love teaching children. I teach bilingual Spanish 2nd grade. The parents, like your parents, have tremendous respect for education and teachers. Usually I already have parental permission to give swats. Of course I don’t as they are now illegal. But imagine how powerful that is? “Your mom said I can spank you if I need to. So don’t make me ‘need to!'”

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:

            Cielo –

            How I love this!
            “Your mom said I can spank you if I need to. So don’t make me ‘need to!’”

            I am politically active locally on non-partisan issues (primarly the taking of land and homes from people to benefit developers)and due to my sharp tongue and sharper elbows, have opponents both on and off the various boards, commissions and councils I address. Fortunately, far more supporters supporters as well, because the proceedings are televised – and that includes a few Moms of politicians who like to see someone stand up for “the little guy.”

            I know of two “political Moms” I can go to and get a signed permission slip, per your quote. This is going to knock ’em dead in the next hearing, when I read it into the record. I have to do a fair amount of chiding but don’t like to be a scold (where you get a reputation as “always being negative.”) I like to lay down the law with a bit of drollery. A burst of laughter from the audience defuses the situation and has always resulted in the votes I needed.

            “Your Mom said I can spank you if I need to… ”

            Just perfect!

            Thank you, Cielo – we learn so much – and gain so many tactics – from this site!

          • cielo62 says:

            A la orden! So glad it will be used by more than just me, to benefit others!

            Sent from my iPod

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      Kid was probably crying because his ears were killing him from the pressure change.

      Regardless of what color anyone was, the 60 year old should have been taken into cusody by an air marshall if one was on board, or they should have been waiting to cuff him when the plane landed, after which a conversation with Homeland Security should have followed as well as his name being put on the no-fly list.

      And then off to jail to await trial.


      • PiranhaMom says:

        @LadyStClaire, Racer, Unitron, TwoSides, Xena –

        Generally it is the descent that causes babies to cry, because the pressure is greater as the aircraft descends, despite the cabin being pressurized.

        At that age infants don’t know how to swallow “pre-emptively,” move their jaws, hold their nose and attempt to breathe out to “pop” their ears. So they scream because it hurts, terribly
        It is a good time for Mama to have packed a butterscotch lollipop in her purse, to entice the child to suck on it – but you have to start this before descent.

        (That is why airlines used to regularly hand out gum. Aircraft weren’t pressurized until the DC-4.)

        Nevertheless, the attacking adult should have been restrained, airport police advised to meet the aircraft on the tarmac before permitting passengers to disembark, and names and contacts obtained from witnessing passengers and their statements, if possible. (Not always possible with connecting pasengers eager to get to their next flight.)

        Do not try to do this when the plan taxis to the gate: the aircraft aisle is filled with passengers.

        If this incident was not handled correctly, with the adult detained by police on the ground, then Mama’s attorney should sue the airline for slightly less than the price of a small Boeing jet.

        This is not a racial issue. This is child cruelty and endangerment.

        I worked in commercial aviation for 17 years with the final 6 on the Chairman’s staff, working out of the Legal Division, and was awarded a gold medal (as a passenger) for lifesaving during an inflight incident. Striking a child is
        completely unacceptable and the crew has full authority to demand police response.

        • racerrodig says:

          ‘This is not a racial issue. This is child cruelty and endangerment.”

          I must respectfully disagree 100%. In 1965 we flew from NJ to LA and my youngest brother was 15 months old. He was uncomfortable but didn’t cry. In 1999 we flew from NJ to FL with our 9 month old son who never cried either.

          We don’t even know why this kid was crying do we.

          Nobody had the right to do what he did. How would the mom know how sensitive that child would be to pressure changes, maybe he had a loaded diaper ?? was hungry, maybe he just hates air
          travel ??

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Racer,

            As I understand your post, Racer,you’re not REALLY disagreeing that slapping the crying child was cruelty and child endangerment, you are disagreeing with my comments re the effect

            of increased pressure on the eardrum during aircraft landings … based on two flights you took with family, 30 years apart.

            All of us who are regulars often impart bits of what we’ve learned thorough our lives and impart those nuggets here, en famille.

            I’m getting a real appreciation for race car motors from reading your posts Racer, in addition to your sage comments on the Trayvon Martin case.

            One example of students’ posts is the one today telling us that doctors often advise mothers to bring a pacifier to help babies suck through the landing approach.

            Actually, one of the best comforts, emotionlly and physically, is a mother’s breast filled with milk, but not every mother has that available to her child – and I did not want to offer this in my earlier post, concerned that it might raise discussions unbecoming to our role here.

            So, to explain the basis for my comments re ear pain, I contrast your two flights with well over the thousand flights I took during my career in commercial aviation, including a surprising number in which the aircraft were completely unpressurized and, with full impact of added or reduced pressure on eardrums.

            One of my jobs was producing the aerial and ground photography of all versions of our aircraft, which we had to repeat every time a new paint scheme was presented by the ad agency, and every time we bought a new line of jets.

            I never asked my crew to do anything I woudn’t do, so I was always present. During my time we filmed the DC-3 (antique) through the DC-8 jumbo jets. For aerial photography the main cabin door was removed from the “chase plane” (the ship with the cameras) and the chase plane (usually an out-of-time DC-7, in later years) was painted grey with water-soluble paint, lest the passengers at the airport spot a doorless aircraft in the vicinity – with our name on it. (lousy for the image.)

            Windows were removed for the still cameramen. A 35mm motion picture camera was mounted on an O’Connor HiHat, bolted to the floor, with a secure multi-strap harness bolted to the floor behind it, to strap the camera operator in. The lens was held a fraction in back of the open doorway so it would not be ripped off by airspeed.

            Other chase planes were borrowed from the Coast Guard, with the same camera mounting and cameraman harness protection, located in the bay of the C-130.

            Obviously, under those circumstances, with all those open apertures, the aircraft could not be pressurized. We flew no higher than 18,000 ft. and could suck oxygen, when needed, from tubes plugged into a ceiling ridge throughout the chase plane.

            I can tell from your posts, Racer, that you would have loved this job.

            But not if you were a kid, because children’s swallowing mechanism are less developed than ours, and because children’s ears are often congested, narrowing the ear channel.

            On your two flights, the aicraft were probably pressurized around 5,000 ft,. and with a gradual descent (depends on the airport and weather if a steep landing is needed – unusual for passenger aircraft) the increased pressure was not noticed by the kids at all – and their ear canals were in tip-top shape to start with.)

            I personally know the pain involved because I also trained in SCUBA (caps not to emphasize; that’s how it’s spelled) with advance training in rough-water entries and exits every week for a year with an Army divemaster (I have no idea why the Army needed a divemaster, but I am a certified diver with an Army certificate). On only one weekend was the Pacific too roiled to dive. I took this training because, unfortunately, aircraft do crash in the ocean (as ours did).

            In diving the pressure on your eardrums increases rapidly as you descend and one of your first lessons is how to equalize. (Children, of course, don’t get this training.) I found I came into this job, with a minor physical defect, however, because my left ear canal is scarred by carbolic acid used by MDs when I was a child (illegal in the US)so I have less flexibility in that ear canal. And I noticed that if I had any congestion – say from a slight cold – that aircraft landings were painful until I rigorously equalized that ear. So I had the benefit from my dive training.

            I fully agree with you that the child could have been crying for any number of reasons, and that the child should NEVER have been struck. Further, I believe that all adults should understand that there are times that flying is painful to children’s ears and adults ought to give kids speciall compassion at that time. The pain will cease on landing.

            So, in this case, Racer,
            can we agree to agree?

          • racerrodig says:

            We can agree as long as I understand that the mother of this child did nothing intentionally that would be endangerment.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Racer, I hope you do understand that nobody was accusing the MOTHER of any harm to the child. It’s obvious that this was a case of cruelty and child endangerment by the SLAPPER – not only the potential injury to the child and extremely limited medical care in-flight, but the actual intense pain caused to the child.

            My complaint was to the slapper’s physical assault AND the airline’s responsibility to have the asaulting adult met on landing by airport police. As was reported later, he was thusly taken into custody.

            It was not for racial slurs, reprehesible though they were. It was for assaulting the child.

            Is there something wrong in addressing the CRIMINAL ACTIONS that stem from racist acts, or are we supposed to ONLY address the racial prejudice displayed? Something wrong in aaying the airline had its responsibility stemming from this act? Which, we found out later, they met.

            If we had all heard the NEN call with Zimmerman saying “fucking coons”, but Zimmerman had NOT exited his vehicle, had NOT tracked down Trayvon, had NOT confronted and restrained Trayvon, had NOT pumped a 9mm hollow-point bullet into Trayvon’s beating heart – would we all be here today because of Zimmerman’s racial slur?

            We are here because a beautiful young man, much loved, with great potetial in this world, was MURDERED.

            Again, is there something wrong in addressing the CRIMINAL ACTIONS that stem from racist acts, or are we supposed to ONLY address the racial prejudice displayed?

            I say both are significant.

          • cielo62 says:

            racerrodig~ be careful! Even though I agree with you 100% about why the baby was crying, the fact remains the guy was drunk, slapped a baby and used a racial slur. I wondered about his (the drunk guy) due process, but the story itself incites people emotionally so we probably won’t hear about that for awhile.

      • Looolooo says:

        @onlyiamunitron…………maybe the air marshall on board was Osterman, and since the kid was just another fuqing coon, who probably threatend to kill him, then bashed the man’s head on the seat in front of him, so he figured the man slapped the lil thug in self defense. Therefore the man was standing his ground, and there was no evidence to the contrary.

      • Mary Davis says:

        Kid? Please, in my opinion a 19 month old is a baby. WTF is wrong with everybody. Crying because of ear pressure, come on folks. Babies cry because that’s what babies do. I can’t believe this story. WTF is this world coming to.

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly !! and I think trons just a troll. I thought he got booted before.

          • cielo62 says:

            racerrodig~ unit ron is not one of my favorite posters, but he’s never been banned. He’s left voluntarily several times after being called out on some divisive and unsubstantiated stuff, but never banned.

          • racerrodig says:

            Because of some comments past and present I’ll just hit Ignore and Delete.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Mary Davis, babies cry all the time but babies often cry on planes because they can’t clear their ears. It’s quite painful. Many people chew gum to avoid this or take sinus meds. Doctors advise parents to give their babies pacifiers to suck and so on to help them with the pressure change.

      • Pmom

        I used to work for Douglas….McDonnell Douglas at the time….building DC 9’s 10’s and F4’s in Torrance….193rd and Normandy……late 70’s

        • PiranhaMom says:

          .@MtnManPat –

          Know the territory well, my friend.

          Used to keep a DC-8 mock-up at that plant, full interior, that we trucked up (in sections) to the studios in Hollywood, if they weren’t filming in a real aircraft at LAX (at night, on layover. Put blue-tinted cell on the windows and blasted “daylight” in the wndows by studio lights outside.)

          But the mock-up on stage was so much more convenient, and safer, than having 300 people and 60 trucks out by the hangars. As you’ll recall, those nights by the ocean were plenty damp and chilly, too. Brrrrrr!

          • Yeah I remember those nights……worked swing & graveyard while I was there…..Lived in the OC then……It was funny leaving at night as train tracks blocked one of the exits……there would be a train sitting there stopped…..with boxcars from Northrup…one after the other…..all 747 parts being shipped to Boeing in Seattle…

            Worked Hughes GSG in Fullerton too….hear that place is now a shopping center…..lived in Norco then.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @MMPat –

            Ah yes, all that commuting.

            And gas was $1.12 a gallon …

          • PMom

            U familiar with Kittyhawk Aviation at the Chino AP?

            Did side jobs for them making replacement parts for old warbirds.

            Flo’s Diner?

          • PiranhaMom says:


            No, Chino’s a little far afield for me. Knew it in the old horse ranch days; got dragged by one — never went back. All housing developments and foreclosures today …

    • Jun says:

      Did security or someone knock the 60 year old guy out?

      If someone knocked that old fool out I guarantee you the city would give him/her a medal for bravery

      I cant stand when kid’s cry either but there’s no reason to strike a bloodclot baby like that

      • Xena says:


        Did security or someone knock the 60 year old guy out?

        He was arrested for simple assault.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ PirahaMom. “This is not a racial issue”. He called the baby a n word. What do you call that? Thank God it was not my baby he slapped. I would have tore the whole plane up. This is pathetic,

        • racerrodig says:

          I commented to PMom on that. Not racial…huh. I’d have given the guy his 1st skydiving lesson……..sans chute.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Mary Davis,

          If the assailant had only yelled, “Shut that N-baby up!” that would be a racial issue.

          Because the baby was physically assaulted it becomes an assault upon and endangerment of
          the child, plus an air safety issue. You can’t have brawling on aircraft in-flight. My understanding is that the N-word was used after the child was slapped.

          If the assailant had yelled the N-word without striking or physically menacing the child, and a brawl erupted among passengers at that point, this becomes an air safety issue.

          I do not have the details of the incident, but was sure happy to read the post later, reporting that the assailant was arrested on landing.

          The physical safety of the child, the mother, the passengers and the crew are foremost while flying.

          Many incidents discussed on this blog are what one might call “dual transgressions.” If a stranger on an aircraft calls me the “N-word” in-flight, I have no legal action against him.

          If the airline denies me passage because I am an “N” I have a legal complaint against the airline.

          If a passenger assaults me and also calls me the “N-word” then the passenger has broken the law – and I am entitled to have the air crew intercede on my behalf (and on behalf of public safety) by making their best attempt at physically protecting me and by securing law enforcement intercession upon landing.

          If the air crew did not, my attorney would pursue this issue in court.

          We all know racism exists. Racist thoughts, whether we like it or not, are protected in the US by the First Amendment. But physical assault – whether racially motivated or not – is offered no protection.

          That is the point I am making.

          I take a special interest in this case because my career in commercial aviation intersected with the integration of Blacks into flight crews. I can recall our hiring of our first Black pilot in the late ’60s and the anxious discussion among top management about “what to call him” because this was news. They were horrified when I spoke up and said, “Black.”

          “Oh, we can’t say that!” was the response. (I don’t know what they had in mind. “Colored?” “Negro?” African-American was not used at that time.) I was the youngest member of the team, by about 20 years, so was considered a rebel against tradition. I also knew that they were trying to be respectful, and accurate, and were trying to wrap their minds about how best to address this new issue of defining race. And yes, a BLACK pilot WAS news!

          So when they said “Oh, we can’t say ‘Black’ ” I answered, “Sure we can. I asked him.”

          End of the discussion.


          • cielo62 says:

            PiranhaMom~ “Asking someone what their comfort level is with what words..”. WHAT A CONCEPT! Has ANYONE ever understood the importance of COMMUNICATION in civilized society?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m glad he was arrested. Unbelievable he would do that to a child.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Everyone. I just had to take a three mile walk to clear my head and anger. I apologize for my outburst earlier about the baby being slapped and called the n-word. I am sensitive when it comes to babies, little children, teens, and even young adults. Maybe it’s because I have a son myself. @PiranhaMon. I especially apologize to you. I have been reading this blog long enough to recognize your intent when you post and comment. I know you didn’t mean any harm in your comment. Please accept my apology.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Mary Davis,

          You never, never need apologize for pouring your heart out, Mary, as many of us do on occasion, and if there is a misunderstanding among us, we have the opportunity to explain ourselves. The imperfect art of commnication known as blogging limits us by not including body language and facial expression.

          I replied to you earlier without realizing you had posted again, so now I apologize for what must seem to you as a very cold heart. I know
          we are caring minds together, as we hate the actions hurtful to this child.

          I am aware that as a “peach colored person” (“white” but not albino) I could not ever have the acute sensitivity to racism as one who experienced it from the dawning years of childhood. And in this case, what I offered was “an acute sensitivity” to the discomfort of air travel (and the responsibiity of the airline) – especially for children, because aviation was my life for 17 years.

          When I first posted on this subject, I thought of reporting to you an incident early in my career, but reconsidered when I saw how long my response was. But I will do so now.

          I must first tell you that I became aware (and puzzled) by prejudice – basically class prejudice – around the age of five. It was not white-on-black prejudice because I had never seen a Black person although I knew humans came in different hues – I went to school with embassy childen, and I was a voracious reader of The National Geographic as soon as I could turn the pages.

          Then one year (around age 7) two Black children appeared in class – Phyllis and her younger sister. I have no idea where they were from, but they were not embassy kids who were often kept together as siblings despite their ages, because it was easiest on the kids. All I can tell you is that we were smitten by the Price children, because they seemed so exotic to us and every one of us competed to be their BFFs. And then one day, they were gone … and we were left with memories of how burnished and exotic they seemed, with their ebony skin and shy smiles. We had loved and admired them, and then they were gone.

          Flash forward more than a decade, and I was living in America, but in California seeing at a geographic distance day-to-day racial conflict.

          In my own life, the only racist speech was by my very old, very wealthy great grand-mother-in-law, who openly disrespected Negroes (but called them only by the proper name of the day) but who doted on, and who was treated with great devotion by, her companion (an employee, but a trusted one) who was evidently and vividly, a Black woman.

          When I once timidly pointed out the incongruity of this, there was the fierce response by Mrs. Marshall (grandmother’s companion) that I was wrong — because she was “an Ethiopian.”

          I did not bring up the subject again, but it stuck with me. A few years later, on a flight (in the days when there was some pleasure, even luxury, to air travel and it was all First Class) I was seated next to a Black traveler, and because he struck me as a man of considerable compassion, (and was, he told me, a pastor) I unburdened my soul.

          How could I oppose what I knew to be outright prejudice, in the face of this family relationship, and its “denial” of prejudice?

          His response surprised me. That prejudice was wrong, yes, but disrespecting a much older person who had obviously lived through close to 90 years of racially prejudiced “immersion” would also be “a wrong.”

          Great grandmother-in-law and her companion had obviously struck a narrative that made their lives together liveable and they needed each other. (There were two servants in the home, who were white. Both were appropriatelu deferental to Mrs. Marshall in consideration of her age and the relationship.)

          Likely it had been Mrs. Marshall’s skill, but no one knows What was important in this case, the pastor told me, was to honor BOTH older women, as I was doing, show compassion, and not attack.

          But there were two other issues he wanted me to consider in earnest: (1) do not waste energy in trying to change older lives that do not impact others, and (2) use all that energy, all you can muster and more, to bring racial justice as the NORM to young people – because young people can change the world.

          In those days, aircraft were slower, and you could not even fly nonstop coast-to-coast. There had to be a refueling stop mid-country. Seats were wider and “pitch” – distance between your seat and the one in front, was greater and much more comfortable.

          There was time for conversation, and you could on occasion find yourself with a traveling companion for a few hours with wit, or a compelling life story, or in this case, with what struck me as deep compassion, understanding, and a solution to my concerns that was surprising in its clarity and simplicity.

          The passenger in seat 6A was Dr. King.


      • FactsFirst says:

        @PiranhaMom I just read your 2/17/2013 11:41pm and I just wanted to say, what a powerful yet BEAUTIFUL STORY my sistah… @Mary I feel you too my sistah… Most of the time I can’t comment because I wear my heart on my sleeve (fingertips) and somtimes I do let my emotions get the best of me… Happens to the best of us…

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Facts First,

          Thank you, dear friend. I was so fortunate to have this spiritual mentor, even if it was for a few hours. He spoke with clarity. He had an elegantly simple solution to this family quandary – and provided instruction that would last a lifetime. I was blessed.

          And yes, all the childen in later generations are “colorblind” (not optically, though) and we have a multi-racial family with American Indian and Nepali members – and yes, the childen ARE “all things bright and beautiful!” So the blessings continue.

          It is good now to see the reports that the passengers on that flight came to the mother and child’s support, that there is a solid, articulate witness, and that the prosecution has been launched. And that this racist, drunkard idiot was fired from his job. This is the kind of OBJECT LESSON that gets around.

          Also, I see that the baby’s crying started on descent, as I expected. This monster couldn’t give this child a few minutes’ patience??? Well, now he is learning his lesson!

          For anyone interested in learning how to equalize your ears during descent, it’s simple.
          As soon as you feel pain, swallow, or wiggle your jaws – if the pain continues in one or both ears:

          1) Close mouth;
          2) Pinch nostrils together, shutting off your ability to inhale/exhale;
          3) Try hard to exhale out your pinched nose (one good breath). You can’t do it, so your breath has to go simewhere. Your ears will instantly pop – one or both ears;
          4) Take fingers off nose, breathe normally.
          5) If the pressure builds up again and you feel pain, just repeat the procedure. It is SO simple.

          Note — you can try this at your computer right now – most people have an eardrum that is blocked, but it causes no pain because there is no pressure build-up. Just squeeze, attempt to blow out through your nose, ear “pops” if blocked, release nose and breathe normally.

          Don’t even have to buy a ticket and take that lo-o-o-ong drive to the airport!

          Thank you again, FactsFirst. Your kind message is embedded in my heart.

      • FactsFirst says:

        I agree with Mary that this is a racial issue because this guy Hundley said “SHUT THAT N*GGER BABY UP” TWICE before he slapped the baby… ABC NEWS: “Bennett, who was seated in row 28 alongside Hundley, told FBI agents that she tried to get her son to stop crying when Hundley “told her to shut that [‘N word’] baby up. I said, ‘What did you just say?'” Bennett said. “And he was so drunk that he fell onto my face, and his mouth moved over to my ear and he said it, just directly into my ear.” The 33-year-old mother then says Hundley slapped her son in the face.. “When I had looked at Jonah’s face, he had, his eye was swollen…and it was bleeding,” Bennett said. “I was just scared to death.” That’s when fellow travelers stepped in…

    • FactsFirst says:

      Yes, and it took me a while to even stomach speaking on it too… IMHO, every since President Obama was elected the racists started coming outta the woodwork… They didn’t hide behind sheets anymore, they hid behind computer monitors.. So when GZ murdered Trayvon and people from all walks of life protested the injustice, the police corruption and GZ not being arrested it was like pouring salt in a big ass open womb for them.. They couldn’t hold it in any longer… The last thing they wanted to see after a black president was a bunch of blacks and “N-Lovers” protesting… It just brings back bad memories for them… They want us to pretend racism is a thing of the past while they slap babies and call them the “n word” on airplanes… All I know is, “Lord please don’t ever let that happen to my child and if it does, Lord watch over the racist who does that because I’d run thew hell with gasoline draws on, or slide down a razor blade in to an alcohol river for my babies”…. just my thoughts…

      • FactsFirst & Lady St. Claire: I read this despicable story! Yes, these racists have come out of the woodwork since President Obama became President became President and they are revealing their feelings in full force! The horror! That black boy became President not only once, but TWICE?? OMG!

        Good thing it wasn’t my baby daughter who was crying on that plane, because she did do that many years ago when she was a baby in 85. I had to take a warm towel and place it by her ears because that baby was probably feeling some pain in that area. If that old racist fool had done that to my baby! He would have been tossed out of the plane head first by my husband!

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ PirahaMom. I very seldom post, (just had to this time) but why did you say “This is not a racial issue” It is clearly child abuse, but at the same time IMO it is also clearly very racist. At this point I just don’t know how to interpret your comment.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @FactsFirst. When I heard this it made me so angry. Seems like this doesn’t phase some people. My mother is two years away from 100 years old. The stories I’ve hear about what my mother and her parents went through living with racism is astounding. Iv’e had to live through enough of it myself, being 63 years old. Enough of this racist bull. Thank God my grandchildren will never have to live through that crap. I will not be reading this on YouTube.

      • aussie says:

        It is a racist issue because I am sure he would not have DARED to hit a WHITE baby. At most he might have asked the mother to keep it quiet, as I have seen numerous people do when babies or toddlers were making too much noise on a plane.

        The issue is racist when someone thinks they are entitled to discipline someone else’s child because it is a member of an underclass he has rights over.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Hitting! a stranger’s baby and justifying by saying “Shut that nigger baby up!” Racist! Bonkers!

        And now unemployed, according to Yahoo News. (I’m sorry I can’t find the link)

      • FactsFirst says:

        This racist hurled the racial slur twice before slapping the baby… IMO, he should be charged with a hate crime too.. Here’s video for those who haven’t seen it…

        • racerrodig says:

          Hmmmmmm ?? Lets look at this and use some Team Trayvon Common Sense.

          Hundley uses the “N” word Fogen used the “C” word
          Fogen called Trayvon an asshole

          Hundley slapped a baby Fogen murdered his victim

          Hundley fired Fogen claims he was mugged
          now unemployed

          Fogen Charged by the
          Feds What’s next here gang

        • Xena says:

          I would place a bet that had the mother been Black, that lunatic would have minded his own business. Because the mother is White, he no doubt felt that she would not be offended and also give him the right to act like slave master.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Hundley’s picture has been posted all over the internet, so there’s hardly a person, worth knowing, who doesn’t know what he looks like and stands for. Thus, anyone seen consorting with Hundley will be suspected of being a racists themselves, meaning he’s going to have a very hard time finding work. Most companies don’t want to be known for having a racist on staff. Worse, anyone with a cell phone can take his picture and/or video of any place where he gets hired. The company faces the prospect of having the video of their racist hire go viral. That would be a terrible thing for the company. Unless he’s working a compost heap.

  18. Malisha says:

    Think of this: Fogen’s story makes him look like a real fool, an incompetent boob, a scairdey-cat, a wuss, a weak little wishy-washy punk, and a total idiot. Why? You’re out there on your own without back-up in the area where you JUST SPOTTED A REAL SUSPICIOUS GUY and you’re clopp-clopping around without your gun out ready for action. THEN you get dropped with one single punch and totally dominated like a b1tch for almost a full minute while all you can do is yell “help me help me” as if you’re not a man. Where, damnit, are all your Y Chromosomes? Unmanned a little bit, huh? Wow!

    Yeah, this story is the story of a little pissy wuss, isn’t it?

    The reason I thought about this is that I turned on the TV to try to find something non-irritating to watch, and the first thing I saw was a woman in evening wear at a glitzy bar and then she hears a shot fired and immediately pulls a pistol out of her purse and hops OFF the bar stool and strides toward the sound with her gun drawn, ahead of her in that two-handed “ready for anything” position, prepared to take down the criminal.

    A woman in a cute little cocktail dress, size 6.

    And I realized, “Fogen’s story of how this all went down is not only a lie, it’s an insult to everybody’s intelligence.” We all know that a crime-obsessed wannabe like Fogen had his gun drawn early on while he stalked around that night. He did not get surprised and dropped with a sucker-punch. He said that afterwards to cover the fact that when he realized Trayvon Martin wasn’t gonna play his ‘you’re the good guy and I’m the thug-criminal-coon’ game, he taught him his lesson by killing him. It’s this close to UNDENIABLE; it’s certainly closer than the distance of a reasonable doubt.

    • racerrodig says:

      “Think of this: Fogen’s story makes him look like a real fool, an incompetent boob, a scairdey-cat, a wuss, a weak little wishy-washy punk, and a total idiot.”

      Malisha….will you please stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think of FogenPhoolesPhantasticalPhoolishPhabricatedPhantasies.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s interesting, isn’t it, how fearful people run around with guns, trying to look like bigshots and messing stuff up. Feckless Fogen.

        • racerrodig says:

          When you think about the crap this group has said, the contradictions and the outright lies, Freudian slips and such, I’m stunned that they actually think a jury, even a silly jury will buy any of that. Yeeeeesh !

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Racer, I think it’s quite possible that a jury might give Fogen some benefit of the doubt and find him guilty of manslaughter instead of M2, but the forensics and flakey timeline won’t allow a not guilty verdict or a mistrial unless some nightmare Treestumper style jury slips through or the prosecution totally blows their case. Judge Nelson runs a tight ship and she seems pretty immune to BS.

        • racerrodig says:

          When the phone records are released I have 100 % confidence you’ll retract the M2 doubt, do an Irish Jig and say Yes, Yes,
          Yes !! Picture Wesley Snipes in “Major League” when he learns he made the team….Trust Me !!

      • Malisha says:

        Racerrodig, sorry, I gave up “really saying it” for Lent.

      • Jun says:

        Fogen could get manslaughter in a plea deal but in all honesty, Fogenhats can’t put on any “decent American” act with his brother or father, without opening a vast amount of doors

        Fogenhats tries that, and we have all seen his history, it will show he is more than capable of doing such things, and I would not doubt the main reason he never truly got in trouble was because his dad had connections with law enforcement

        I would not doubt if Pops is going to have all his cases that he watched over looked at again, or anything he handled, because it is clearly an attempt to pervert justice

        I feel that the killing was depraved and showed a disregard for human life

        He stalked and terrorized this kid

        The kid was pleading for mercy and out of fear

        Fogenhats himself when he was first showed that tape, stated “it does not sound like me”

        Because it sounds like a kid screaming… put it side by side with Fogenhats’ voice exemplars and his NEN call… it is a teenage or youthful voice screaming for help

        Even though Junior keeps trying to taint the jury with his lies, once trial comes, the jury will hear the forensic evidence, and it is fairly safe to say the kid never even touched or attacked the defendant at all, and the defendant was the only party red handed with blood on his hands as Fogenhats’ hands were the only party with blood all over them

        They can even do science experiments in court and recreate Fogenhats’ bleeding from his minor wounds, to show he was upright the whole time due to gravity, hence the bleeding all flowing toward his neck and his chin when he bent his head forward 45 degrees

        Anyone can put two and two together, which is why it is an old phrase to say “being caught redhanded”

        Fogenhats stalked and pursued this kid, as the kid tried to run away from him, and when fogenhats caught the kid, he confronted, threatened and attacked the kid, and then killed him, then staged his self defense claim

        As he said himself, he was running out of time so he had to make up stuff on the spot

        Fogenhats was the only party redhanded so it is safe to conclude he caused the injuries himself

    • Jun says:

      It is pretty blatantly obvious what happened

      You gotta know Fogenhats, based on his history is a manipulative bully

      He wants to get away with doing something bad

      Hence the story he concocted and staged and he then got his father and brother to go around lying for him

      If you look at Junior and the father and Fogenhats, they are high siddity and think they are actually fooling you with their lies and nonsense

      The most obvious being the scream tape

      It is obviously not Fogenhats screaming, because it does not sound like him, and in fact, 4 of the witnesses have described it as a kid screaming, and it sounds like a kid screaming

      Fogenhats came up with that story because he knows the self defense law so he wanted to come across as helpless as possible

      too bad his history says the opposite, and his phone call shows the exact opposite, and the forensics show the exact opposite

      • racerrodig says:

        Yep……it must really suck to be FogenPhoole about’s exactly
        3:01PM 2/17/2013……and it’s going to get worse

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I wonder if the “immunity hearing” has anything to do with Foge’s desire to bring his boys down with him. (“Please give me immunity from prosecution, and I’ll give you the names of the REAL bad guys,” i.e.)

  19. kllypyn says:

    Hi everyone i just had .a thought.What if trayvon saw a criminal act going on only he didn’t know w\hat he saw he didn’t give it much it thought as he walked home. the people he saw might have thought he knew what they were doing and decided to keep him quiet permanently. but first they interrogated him to see what he knew. he said he didn’t know but they killed him anyway.

    • racerrodig says:

      Here’s a thought based on an incident my dad had when he was a cop. He stopped a guy in the only alley in town behind a store and it was evident he was going to break in. (the bolt cutters are always a dead giveaway)

      Dad had his Maglight in his hand and this clown took a swing at my dad who clocked him upside the head with his Maglight, basically the same thing FogenPhoole had. What the hell did FogenPhoole do with his Tactical light all that time?? IIRC he had it in his hand when the cops showed up and the residents started to come out.

      However, if Black Dynamite Slim did as Fogen states, one swing of his light would have knocked Trayvon out.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        You can do plenty of damage with a set of keys too.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yes you can…But it hit me, Fogen claims to get smacked and I don’t remember him ever saying anything to the effect that he ever fought back. If I had anything in my hand that had bulk, you can be damn sure I’m swinging first, and you better duck, ‘cuz it will be my “…for the fences..” swing.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It just makes sense to me that you don’t bring guns to a fistfight. I don’t understand a man who basically pursues, initiates a confrontation because he neglects to have a normal conversation that could have answered all his questions, then pulls a gun early on when he has fists and and maglight (I used to keep one beside my bed for my version of protection) and all around, creates a deadly situation where there didn’t have to be one. With cops on the way, no less! He said he didn’t think Trayvon was armed and he wasn’t afraid of him.

        Actually, I hope Trayvon did clean Fogen’s clock for him before he got killed because Fogen deserved it, though the clumsy fool could have just as easily run into a tree or fallen on his face.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Fogen had no defensive marks on his arms. Serino questioned him about that and never got a good answer, if I recollect correctly. So the story keeps circling back to how much, if any, of Fogen’s story is the truth?

      • Nefertari05 says:

        He never says he fought back in any manner, Racer. He expects it to be believed that he just laid there and took the whole punching, bashing, smothering beating without even so much a grabbing Trayvon’s wrists, so he could breathe.

        IIRC – the tactical flashlight was part of the debris field south of Trayvon’s body, which in itself is a whole ‘nother issue. How did it get there, based on the illogical logistics of fogen’s stories?Did he do the whole stumble, fumble, swimming thing, after being punched, with a maglite in his hand – but never swung it (as you said any reasonable person would do)? He’s “pushing” Trayvon away from him, but never hits him with the light, and …. Hell, I don’t even remember how he accounts for the distance of the end of the stumble -stagger thing to Trayvon’s body. Did he EVER account for it?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yeah, all the ex bar bouncer can do is stand there like a potted palm and take punches. And the Chief of Police found that a credible story? The town needs to sue him for fraud to recover his salary!

          • racerrodig says:

            Most guys get into a few tiffs as kids on the school ground and such. I got picked on all the time because dad was a “pig” and in the 60′ that wasn’t the least bit cool.

            I learned to inflict serious pain and leave no marks and never have to throw a punch after awhile. But before I learned any of this, and a punch was thrown, I always tried to deflect, boob, weave, duck and return fire. Many times I didn’t remember most of the fight and had to take the word of my friends of what I actually did. It’s called “Tunnel Vision”

            My son and I play paintball in “Combat Scenarios” It’s not life and death but when we get into a serious “fire fight” it’s the same thing……survival…..cover and return fire……Damn Fogen….it is impossible not to try and survive you stupid shit !!!!!

            However, when confronted in any situation the body goes into survival mode automatically. Even in a non stress work environment, if something gets loose and into the air, you duck and / or get your hands and arms up to avoid getting hit, You can’t even fight it !! Like sneezing, your brain automatically closes your eyes to avoid the spray.

            And we’re to believe FogenPhoole just laid there and took a whooping……Where’s the Deed to that bridge I have for sale ??

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You got it, GZ is sprouting Aggravated Catastrophic Stupidity and we’re supposed to swallow it.

            Is it just me? Or does anyone else have this feeling that, no one is going to be able to just lay there immobile, while hand after hand comes flying towards your face? Chief Lee and Wolfinger heard that story and believed it??? They both need to be put in jail, if they can’t see the stupidity of such a claim they’ve been collecting their salaries under false pretenses.

        • racerrodig says:

          I don’t remember seeing anything that says how it got where it was found. 50 million words later and nothing. Did he throw it at Trayvon ?

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Zimmerman only had two hands. To grab Trayon with one (which I think came first, with the dominant hand)then get the gun out of his holster, he had no third hand for the tactical flashlight.

            He discarded it in the nearby “debris field.”
            I doubt he had the wrist strap slipped over his
            hand, but was carrying it instead. I don’t know where GZ’s prints are on the light, nor if blood & DNA is on it, but I think not.

      • Dave says:

        Racerrodig, the killer’s flashlight is only about 6 inches long and powered by 3 AAA or 3AA batteries. Your dad’s Maglite was probably one of those big truncheon-like things powered by 3 or 4 D cells. I haven’t seen a cop with one of those in many years. I think most departments banned them because too many “suspects” were getting beaten to death with them. They’ve been replaced by small tactical lights and tasers.

        On the subject of tactical flashlights, I’ve been playing around with a theory inspired by this short video that shows a widely taught flashlight tactic:

        Suppose that the killer confronts Trayvon with the tactical flashlight held as Sheriff Jim demonstrates (about 8 inches to the left and forward of his own face) and suddenly “lights up” Trayvon’s face. Suddenly blinded, Trayvon (unlike the Deadly Cameraman in the video) instinctively swings his right hand in the general direction of the offending light. The killer is taken by surprise as his own fist, holding the heavy flashlight is driven into his own face, accounting for the bloody nose. I don’t think it would have required a great deal of force or precise aim to accomplish this–just a reasonably hard blow to the (clothed) wrist or forearm.

        Any thoughts?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Except that Trayvon had no combat or self defense training at all, so he was just a helpless kid being confronted by a frightening situation that he did not understand at all. He was in a total state of abject confusion with no defensive reflexes of any offensive utility. He is immediately over matched and has never had to deal with fear induced by threat. On top of which, his demeanor is not to fight.

          So that kinda rules out all these clever things he could have, would have or should have done. It was all he could do to ask “why are you following me for?” Which was met with unimaginable violence!

        • racerrodig says:

          Very good point, Trayvon may have forced the light into Fogens nose better yet and still possible, what if Fogen had the light taken from him by a sudden move by Trayvon. Trayvon could have hit the light, forced it into Fogen’s nose and he dropped it.

          Trayvon may have been knocked down or partway down and picked the light up and whacked Fogen on the head with it. Those cuts look like that could have been acquired by a sharp blow from a hard object……’cuz they didn’t come from any concrete.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s feasible that Fogen attempted to hit Trayvon with the flashlight, but does it end up where Fogen claims he was sucker-punched?

        • racerrodig says:

          Maybe, but I’d file that under

          He circled my car
          He was pounding my head on the cement
          He came out of nowhere
          My head almost exploded
          I was almost unconscious
          I forgot THE gun
          He was on top

          and all the other lies. If he took a swing at Trayvon with the light, I think he’d have said so and made a big deal out of it AND since Trayvon did not swing at FogenPhoole, he isn’t smart enough to concoct a believable story.

      • Dave says:

        I didn’t suggest that the killer struck Trayvon with the flashlight. I suggested that he may have shone this super-bright, blinding light directly into Trayvon’s eyes and that Trayvon instinctively tried to knock it away and incidentally drove it into the killer’s face.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        @ Dave
        I think if that flashlight scenario transpired, Trayvon raised his hand to protect his face (like the guy in the video), and his left hand ring finger was cut, which hurt like hell.

        Please note, the video credits the NRA. Perhaps Fogen watched it.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @kllypyn, I thought that this could have been a possibility as well and, I mentioned it here a couple of months ago. Trayvon could have very well seen the real suspicious *thugs* in the act of thieving from one of the neighbors who they knew wouldn’t be at home that night.

      What other reason would Fogen be going around to some of the people in the neighborhood, with pen and paper in hand asking about their day to day activities such as, their hours of work and a lot of other questions which pertained to when they would and wouldn’t likely be at home. he didn’t have to know this information just to be a NW person.

      Before all is said and done in this case, there will be other people implicated in this murder as well as using the NW program as a cover for *illegal* goings on at R@TL. it’s very obvious that witness 11 knows a *LOT* more than she is telling. her knowledge of this murder is very telling by her 911 call.

      • MelRoy says:

        A long time ago when I was young I was walking at night to my apartment from the car, which was parked about a block away. I noticed a man was following me, and I started to run, and so did he. I instinctively felt he was catching up to me, so I stopped running and turned around and punched him in the face. Unlucky for him, I was clutching my car keys between my knuckles, and I put his eye out.

        Well, this guy staggered off and I ran indoors and called the cops, and they caught him. And surprise, surprise, the guy had raped two women in my neighborhood.

        I stood my ground, and was very lucky I wasn’t raped (or worse). You don’t stop to think (or at least I didn’t). You try to defend yourself.

        Trayvon was being chased by a strange man at night, as I was…a long time ago.

        • racerrodig says:

          Survival mode takes over but in FogenPhooles case “The truth never changes…….but the lie always morphs”

          I’ll take “Morphing Preposterous Lies” for $5,000.00 Alex.

  20. colin black says:

    ps I Know Snakes are not slimey but lovely an smooth an nice to touch.

  21. colin black says:

    racerrodig says:

    February 16, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    “Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’”

    Lets be 100% accurate because the FogenPhooles are reading all of this.

    He said his brother was a worthless piece of shit

    @Maybe after the initial media frenzy

    Jr an foggen were not close foggen was estranged from most of his Family.
    Includeong his faux Mother=Auntie
    His Father either his adopted Father or his Uncle or his bio Father if im Senior was shaffting his Sister in Law.
    Both foggen an weeeejrzim are adopted from there Aunt Imean there bio Mother is there Aunt do you follow.?
    Because Ive lost meself somewher in there.
    O K Back on track after the intial media frenzy an talk shows here.
    Magaine an newspapers there .
    Weezze was well an truely bitten by a limelight bug an went on to ham it up that even Miss Piggy would give him a karate chop for.

    I think after being humiliated a few times when confronted with people educated on the facts of the case.
    The time line an other blatent nonsense spewed by his brother.

    He took the time to finaly look at the discovery an facts of the case.
    An whilst he was at it decided to read the transcripts of foggens many many many phone calls from prison the first time before his first bail out.

    Ive read thosr phone conversations an reading or hearing not even between the lines.
    In he an ShelLies non to subltle no one will crack our juvinile code sort of style.

    An the things he said so dissmissive of junior to his bro in law a guy married to his sister is it Ken?
    To him anyway he pledges brotherhood as he never had a REAL big brother
    Between he an SheLie an I dont know how many caught ther code / fill in the blank talk about junior when shellie is basicly saying how weirded out she is by ……….An doesnt know if she has a brother in law or sisterlaw..foggen shellie Q laughter think foggen say yea right or I know right?

    Or a conversation along those lines an with snidey remarks re his sexuallity.
    So when I listened to there nasty exchange I got the impression Junior isa guy whom likes to Drag up probably a full blown cross dresser an If so good for him an goood luck to him if an paps get a shot of him sporting his own pair of paps.
    But he has quite good bone structure could see him makeing a dam handsome woman/
    Hard to tell foggens bonestructure as you cant even see his bones anymore.
    How fat of is foggen ….So fat he cant even see if he has a boner.

    Anyhoo back on track again if weezze has finealy gotten round to reading those jail house calls maybe the penny has dropped as to the depth of his brotheres treachoury.
    Treachoury an depravity an disshonesty are all excellent bedfellows………………………………..
    This nest of vipers will turn on themselfs an start to attack
    Trouble is all snakes look a like an when your attacking something long an slimey it hard to tell if your biteing freind or frenemy or yourself/

  22. Looolooo says:

    xy11xy…… Oh, I forgot to say…. Welcome. And I hope you came here because of my invitation earlier this week on YouTube. I’m not known as Looolooo there. But I complimented you on your EXCELLENT videos. I’ve been following you for months now. Keep up the good work, and again…..welcome, so happy you decided to grace us with your wisdom and brilliance. 😀

    • xy11xy says:


      It’s I who should thank you for inviting me. I’ve learned a great deal from reading the blog and comments.

      Thanks again.

      • @xy11xy:

        Welcome Xy! I have been a fan for a very long time of your insightful video’s! Let me tell you this: You have a great speaking voice! You should be on television or radio with that voice! You are articulate and well spoken. You have stood up for Trayvon and stayed fast to your convictions.It is wonderful to have you on this blog! Once again WELCOME! Also, my 17 year old son is in love with you! LOL!

        • xy11xy says:

          That’s really very nice of you to say!.. Thank you for your support.

          Re your young son..I guess I’ll have to think twice before dropping f-bombs. 😉

          • @xy11xy:

            LOL! You are so kind! My son is 17! Don’t worry about dropping the ‘F” word. I drop it more than enough around this house when I am angry! LOL! My son states that you are “gorgeous!” ::SMILE:: He loves your videos and so do my daughters and myself. They are thought provoking and insightful. I have been listening to them from day one.

            Today, the Fogen defense got smacked down! They are so desperate at this point. I do not see why the defense needs the addresses of TM’s family and Dee Dee! WHY? So they can “leak” it to the Nuthouse racists bigots? The White Supremacists? Do they want one of the gun nuts to harm her or the family of TM?

            Why did Dee Dee have to give them her Facebook, Myspace and Twitter accounts? You know what they will find there? Childish, teenage writings. I have never seen such nonsense in my life! What are they looking for?? The fact is that Fogen murdered TM, and they cannot erase that fact. They cannot refute the forensic evidence and I have commented several times on this blog about the fake medical evidence! As a Nurse Practitioner who has treated and nursed many patients who sustained head injuries, Fogen’s injuries don’t even come close.

  23. kimmi says:

    I scrolled through, didn’t see Real Time video, so I’m trying now.

    Jr. on Real Time with Bill Maher…

    I watched the video, and Bill was playing softball with Jr.
    A few interesting points…
    Yes it was pretty easy for Jr, not like many thought it would be, but…

    BM-“He (GZ) put himself on watch”
    Jr-“He was asked by…” (Asked by WHO, WHAT???)
    Bill CUTS IN (DARN!!!) and (I think Jr realized what he was saying)
    BM-“He got distracted” (Geez Bill, I wish you would have let Jr finish his sentence!)

    Jr-Brings up the “weather” as a reason for Trayvon being ‘suspicious’
    BM-“That’s why you gotta wear a hoodie” (Go Bill!)
    Jr-“That’s exactly right” (Duh Jr-That went right over the top of your head!!!)

    BM-“Yet he was following Trayvon Martin”
    Jr-Yea, sure, I understand (Jr ADMITS GZ was following Trayvon!)

    Jr-“…slamming your head into the concrete…”
    BM-“We don’t know that”
    BM-“You’re a family memeber”
    BM-“You can’t be objective”

    BM-“Without the guns involved, wouldn’t it of just been a guy who lost a fight?”
    Jr-“I, I, I think, I, I agree, that’s a factor” (Jr ADMITS this too!!)

    So, even though some may think it went very well for Jr, (he didn’t get all frazzled and angry),
    IMO, Bill made some good points and Jr never realized he was admitting to some of it!


    • jm says:

      kimmi: “Bill made some good points and Jr never realized he was admitting to some of it!”

      I think Bill used charm and wit rather than go on the offensive and he did get some very good points in.

      Wonder if RZ Jr realizes today he was snookered/charmed into agreeing with Maher’s points?

      • kimmi says:

        I doubt Jr noticed it…
        he’s still seeing stars from his ‘future in the industry’

      • kimmi says:

        Yes, Jr has already had tweets, that he has a ‘future’ in PR…blech!!!
        One tweet from Jr that I thought was very interesting…

        Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
        .@billmaher I appreciate the invite &constructive dialogue, this is a convo we all must have –

        “**We both want justice and may justice be done.”

        Is he really that blind to the evidence?
        Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’
        He’s probably just ‘cleaning up’ his image, for his possible future in PR, and the following tweets?

        @rzimmermanjr def could have future in PR.
        Retweeted by Robert Zimmerman Jr

        @rzimmermanjr you impressed maher Glad he gave u a fair shot and I thought it was a good segment.
        After all the legal, u have a media future
        Retweeted by Robert Zimmerman Jr

        I’ve also read, some say, he must really want to see GZ locked up, since he won’t ‘shut up,’ so idk?

        Now his latest….
        Yep, now he’s NEVER going to shut up!

        Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
        .@donnabrazile – Professor, UR a class act: consistently taking the high road. It was my honor 2meet you, I’ll work2 heal R USA anyway I can

        One thing for sure, IMO, Jr would have no problem throwing Fogen ‘under the bus’ for his new ‘career’

        • jm says:

          kimmi: “One thing for sure, IMO, Jr would have no problem throwing Fogen ‘under the bus’ for his new ‘career’”

          No doubt about it. He is quite full of himself and loves being in the spotlight. RZ kind of distanced himself when Bill Maher said he wasn’t like GZ and was agreeable to that which is contrary to what he had said before.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Or, did he finally hear that his brother called him, what was it ‘worthless?’”

          Lets be 100% accurate because the FogenPhooles are reading all of this.

          He said his brother was a worthless piece of shit…..

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, tell it like it is and shame the devil because, that is exactly what Fogen said referring to his brother. but then he was referring to himself also because,after all they were cut from the very same mold.

      • FactsFirst says:

        Loving how BM “HANDLED” RZ kinda like how Serino “HANDLED” GZ… If the Z’s catch any hint that your not TEAM FORGEN, they shut down and spew all that “THE RACISTS ARE COMING” crap then talk in circles. So one must play their role if they expect to get any truth outta the Z’s… BM did his homework on RZ and he handled that interview the only way he knew he could, the way the Z’s would… GOOD JOB!

        Ever notice that Serino chose Baez, the attorney GZ REALLY wanted? I’m inclined to believe Serino chose Baez because he knew in order to beat Forgen, he had to think like Forgen and he needed an attorney who has experience in high profile cases like this.. Serino needed an attorrney who knew all the tricks of the trade, knew how to beat the likes of O’Mara, had defended the likes of forgen (CASEY) AND, who had prolly already spoken to Forgen about the case…. Smart move, Serino… Smart F’n move…

    • xy11xy says:

      Yes. He did redeem himself… slightly…

      I don’t get the fawning at the beginning re Dorner being racist because he wanted Fareed to be deported for being brown and having an accent.

      Is Bill saying that it’s possible for people of colour(Dorner) to be racist, yet providing a false example by misrepresenting what Dorner said?

      I have to do too much Jujitsu to figure out what he’s getting at.

      RZjr is a racist snake. He was all calm until Piers challenged him. Then he lashed out in rage at Piers by throwing out the names of black journalists and commentators, Toure heading the lineup, followed by Charles Blow and another person…as if only black journalists support the Martin family.

      On his show, Piers was excoriated by Toure for not being tougher in questioning the Zimmerman camp. I think Piers is slightly embarrassed about that excoriation, as it turns out that Toure was right about the lies spewed by Joe Oliver et al.

      • kimmi says:

        I think Bill was saying, you can be Afro-Peruvian and still be racist…
        IOW, look out Fogen, the Feds might not be done with you yet!

      • Looolooo says:

        Amen xy11xy……..I made the EXACT same observations in my comment @ about11:45 last night. I (like you) didn’t miss the ourt right falsity that Chris Dorner was racist, and that he wanted Fareed Zakariah deported because of his skin color and accent. He (in his manifesto) stated his reason to be his anti-Americanism, NOT his ethnicity. I happen to agree with the anti-Americanism part (but I also think that FZ makes excellent points, and is brilliant, as well as smokin’ hot), And I think Piers is even more anti-American than FZ. But that’s another story for another time. And also, like you, I noticed that RZJ took great pains to mention ONLY AA people who accuse GZ of being a racist and a murdering liar. Completely ignoring the countless caucastion, asian, hispanic and other ethnicites, not who share the exact opinions. I mentioned this in one of my comments thursday. I am extremely dissapointed in Bill Maher for his softball interview with RZJ. Yet another missed opportunity to get at the true cause of RZJ’s intention. I can’t belive he let him go on and on about being Afro-Peruvian. And why did Bill have to resurrect O.J.?

        If Only Tavis Smiley, Charles Blow, Jonathan Capehart, Toure’, Lawerence O’Donnell, Martin Bashir, Ed Shultz, or even Al Sharpton (even though his voice can be like finger nails on a chalk board) could get a crack at him. If only.

      • Rachael says:


        “I noticed that RZJ took great pains to mention ONLY AA people who accuse GZ of being a racist and a murdering liar. Completely ignoring the countless caucastion, asian, hispanic and other ethnicites, not who share the exact opinions.”

        He ALWAYS does that, as do his friends, The Last Refuse aka Conservative Outhouse.

      • kimmi says:

        I was a little disappointed Bill went so easy on Jr too.

        The part that really got me…Jr ‘has a future in the industry’

        After GZ’s trial, will anyone really want to listen to Jr?
        Most likely not, he will just be known as the murder’s brother, IMO

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Maybe, but Piers has a more moderate show and moderate approach. Brits don’t generally display the level of confrontation that Toure wanted and that Toure exhibited himself.

        • xy11xy says:

          heh.. that was one heck of a fireworks show! Piers seems to have changed his mind about confrontation with the gun enthusiasts.

          Toure was angry because we all knew the Zimmerman cronies were lying, the least Piers could do was challenge them on it. We see now(gun debate) that Piers is more than capable of confrontation…he’s VERY good at it!

          All he could do then was belittle Toure’s legitimate concerns.

          So, why does Piers confront in one circumstance but not in the other?

          And what’s up with Bill’s interview? I just don’t get it.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think Piers is anti-American at all. I think he’s quite razzle-dazzled and almost red-white-&blue patriotic. I think he’s simply anti-gun and wants to bring a little more Brit-style civility to American life.

    • Jun says:

      I think Bill was mocking him but still he was playing softball

      oh well, not like he is a witness anyways, so it is all opinion

      bit seriously

      How is the media unfair?

      For the past 8 or so months, it has been nothing but testimony from RZ Jr. or Omara, unanswered on air, or that lame non expert Michael Knox trying to pitch his book

      At trial they will hear the screams and see the forensic evidence that Trayvon was the one on the bottom, did not start the altercation, and did not even attack the defendant at all

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I just watched it and wasn’t disappointed. Although I’d like to have seen a little more humor, the pair basically had a civil conversation about the case. Bill was more subtle and measured in his skepticism of Fogen.

      This country is mired in gridlock with all contention going on between progressives and conservatives. At some point in time, there has to be some reconcilation of opposing sides to find the truth or the compromise that lies somewhere in between. Bill’s civil treatment of Jr. illustrates that to some degree.

      There doesn’t have to be a showy bring-you-down drama in order to prove one’s point or to put the opponent’s point down. Jr keeps talking about wanting to have a dialogue about his brother. Well, he got one. Even he sounded more moderate.

      I did like Maher’s subtle “you don’t seem like your brother” stuff and the hoody remark. Even the closing remark about Jr. getting into “the business” could be understood with more than one meaning.

      The only person who needs any hard questions, really, is Fogen, and he’s the only one whose answers really matter. We already know to a great degree what those questions and answers are and where they will lead him.

  24. Cercando Luce says:

    Dear George himself SHOWED US ALL, on his very own reenactment that Trayvon had put up his hands as if to say, Okay, I know you have a gun, I give up, and then he shot him one time, ANYWAY. And shrugged.

    I sure hope all the efforts to sow confusion in the judicial process (combining SYG/immunity hearing, 500 jurors, delay requests, insistence on deposing unrelated persons) DO NOT OBSTRUCT JUSTICE. Gee whiz. That’s exactly what going to happen.

    • Rachael says:

      @ Cercando Luce:

      “Dear George himself SHOWED US ALL, on his very own reenactment that Trayvon had put up his hands as if to say, Okay, I know you have a gun, I give up, and then he shot him one time, ANYWAY. And shrugged.”

      In GZ’s reenactment, he said that Trayvon sat up and did this AFTER he was shot. Like many lies, there is some partial truth. GZ pulled the gun, Trayvon put up his hands and said whatever “as if to say,” started screaming and begging for help, but GZ shot him anyway.

      So yes, Trayvon did sit up and say that, he begged, he cried, and GZ shot him anyway. It did NOT happen after he shot him.

      First-degree murder!!!

      • ladystclaire says:

        I agree and, he should have been charged as such. I’m hoping that who ever sits on that jury will do the right thing by an innocent unarmed child who never laid a finger on this POS. I feel so sorry for Trayvon and his family because, they are the true victims in this case yet those who are racist among us are treating them as though they committed a crime.

        This is so unfair to that family and, those who are spewing out their hate and racist comments know it is. but, they don’t care because the victim was black. there is a subhuman over @ HP who calls herself/himself Luceeclair, who thinks the Martin/Fulton family needs to be investigated and that they have never worked. this family has done nothing to be investigated for and, their working or not working has not one damn thing to do with Fogen murdering their child/brother.

        I never knew that there were so many *IGNORANT* people in this country until these racist snakes crawled out of their dens. the hate that these people spew out is unreal and, sites such as HP is more than happy to put it out there for them. this country will never overcome it’s racist history because of those who see’s nothing wrong about a grown man killing an innocent black child. may Fogen and his groupies all *rot in hell.*

  25. colin black says:

    Trailer Park.

    Its a kind of gated community.

    So is a Prison couls say the ultimate gated an secure type community.

    So where ever foggen ends up he wont face that much of a culture shlock.

    Untill the door slams an the clunk of the lock.

    Tic toc tic toc Spring is round the corner with June rapido on its tail foggen get ready for jail an this time never no bail the night you stole Trayvons life an Voice was your ultimate fail.

    In front of Nelson you will make your last stand the world will be watching as you stand your ground.
    And as you look around those smiles an cheers you hear are for Trayvon as he cant be here.
    Down you will go down deep below the belly of the beast upon you it will feast.
    Never again will you know what its like to be free to be able to go where you wish to stroll to be care free.

    Just like your victim that night whos life you stole like a theif in the night .
    For Trayvon that night you installed fright an pain an for that you took the Lords Name an used it in VAIN.

    And for that sin an for defileing his name the Murder of TRAYVON.

    Shall cause you a lifetime of pain.

  26. colin black says:

    racerrodig says:

    February 16, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Believe it or not here is a coincidence of fact that is just staggering that 98% of every member of the Zidiot Nation has in common.
    On another site I found out that most Zidiots live in a similar style dwelling. If you ask nice I’ll tell you.

    Ach thats easy .

    All Trailer Park Residents.

    All ready got one figured out for the home comeing of there homie.
    Better make it a doublewide though.

  27. colin black says:

    It is my suspicion that GZ was in possession of stolen jewelry that he sold on eBay; had received the money and had to ship the products. He needed to do that in order to prevent carrying the stolen property with him.


    my opinion only.

    A Laptop with all foggens secret stuff
    Porn him an shells gretest hits so to speak
    Peadophilia type vileness
    Bacicly any an all type of sicko perverted type stuff you wouldn want L E disscovering on your pc laptop hard drive ect.
    Stuff that is impeative that your eyes only means precisely that.
    An not even your freinds down the station would under stand.
    Vital to pack an stack/stash.
    But a possesions.possesions you just cant bear to part with.

    As I say above is my best geustimate of what freaky fucked up foggen was up to………………..

  28. colin black says:

    Trayvon is offering no resistance at all.

    I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant, thus the only defensis a child an the only interaction I susspect re violencee he knows is to flee if it is possible. If not he just pulls away, twists turns and/or falls down. All in an effort to break the grip his attacker has on him.


    Yes Trayvon.

    Is a child an the only interaction if any with an adult re violence.
    Would have ocoured as most children know if a fight erupts between indivduals at school ect if possable.
    Imeadiatly seek out the assistance of a responcable adult to stop it.
    Before anyone gets seriously injured hopefully.
    Trayvons only defence that night within sight of his own abode safe haven wherever he hung his hoodie thats his home.
    His only defence was to scream as loud as his lungs could for help,
    The screams of a terrified child not alone in the wilderness at the mercy of his crazed attacker.

    But in sight of saftey his back door surrounded by occupied homes whom heard his pityfull screams an pleas for help NONE CAME TO HIS AID.
    Although many many heard his crys an pleas an some even rubber knecked before retreating to the safety of there home when they saw good ole foggen had the SITUATION underneath him
    Under control.

    No Trayvon wasnt in the wilderness of the countryside
    He was in a wilderness of compassion of course I excempt the school teacher an the two lady wittnesses dog abscondee boy from this.
    But in Genral no one in that few blocks cared a rats ass that a child was being terrorised an manhandled by foggen that night.

    Trayvons SCREAMS reached right around the globe an horrified each an everyone of us that heard them.
    But to most that heard them live.
    And ceased hearing them because of DEATH,
    Didnt care.

    • kllypyn says:

      If someone had said to zimmerpunk don’t shoot him. Maybe he would have thought about what he was about to do.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Instead of running back inside, John should have said “George! What are you doing to that kid?” After all, he knew by the sounds that that was a kid, and he could certainly see it was George NW Zimmerman. Instead he give George some privacy and pretends he’s so fearful of the “strangers” out there “fighting”, that after the shot is fired, he comes out and strikes up a conversation with the deadly stranger, huh?!?!? Then tells the police that he saw the kid raining down MMA style blows on buddy George?!?!? MMA style blows, that he later concedes that he never saw? Well, if he never saw them, then how could he have made up that particular story?
      There are hundreds of types of combative moves that he could have stated had happened, so how does he come up with exactly the moves that match GZ’s story? (Professor expounded on this before as well).

      When crafting a lie about something that never happened, it’s unlikely that your falsehood is going to match the falsehood of anyone else, unless you’ve both discussed it beforehand. Meaning that John had knowledge of this scenario before it ever happened.
      Either that or he was quite willing to allow it to appear that he had fore knowledge. Either way that’s pretty damning, because you are aiding and abetting a liar which is known as obstructing justice.

      Well, now we really need to know if that was Ransberg and crew at the 711. Like I said, they timed their arrival to coincide with Trayvon being outside the store. They did not want to be seen interacting on the store cctv. What they didn’t know was that the store cctv could catch a little bit of what was happening outside. At least enough for us to know that TM waited outside the store for about 30 seconds for them to arrive. Because, if he wasn’t waiting for anyone, once he left the store he would have immediately started for home. He had 30 seconds to start for home and he didn’t use them. Instead he stood outside the store and waited. Not only waited for them to arrive, but he waited for them to come out of the store before he left for home, almost 5 full minutes delay.

      We know he did not get a blunt from them, so we know he didn’t change any money with them. So, all they got from him was conversation. So, then, what was the point of the meeting? Friends? They’ve got a car and it’s raining, they’re headed back to RATL where they live, so why not offer your “friend” a lift? Why let him walk .7 miles in the dark and rain? Would you turn down a ride just to speak on the phone with a GF who you have been speaking with all day long? Or “Hey guys, just drop me at the front gate?”

      But no, all this way to wait for them guys and then to just exchange a few words?!?!? There’s no evidence that you know them, of course they may know you. Something here is very, very, very, very wrong.

    • “Maybe he was on patrol with somebody else”…..?

      No he wasn’t…..he was on his way to Target…..Maybe with a ride along.

      Or did I miss something?

    • Tzar says:

      Hey papa
      Love the vid. Depending on your intentions, you may consider putting context in that video for the uninitiated (I love posting your vids for people trying to catch to the case). I know exactly where the snippet comes from but the noobs may not.

    • Somebodyelse who could then testify that he was a real live witness to the beating to within an inch of his live good thing he had his gun on him cause because all this witness could do was witness?

      He is just sayin……

      Where is the defendant anyway?

  29. Romaine says:

    I think that interview may piss off the residents of sanford.

    • jm says:

      Romaine: “I think that interview may piss off the residents of sanford.”

      Not to mention Sanford property values dropping even more since GZ shot an unarmed kid. Now RZ, Jr claims it is dangerous with constant criminal activity.

      Wonder if that interview might have pissed off RZ, Sr as RZ, Jr claimed he was not white like his father but rather Afro-Peruvian. LOL. GZ has NEVER been white.

      The more the Zimmerman KKKlan talk the more they reveal how incredibly unintelligent they are.

      • at about 3 minutes into the interview junior states…and I quote……

        “Dad’s American race”

        Since when did American become a race?

        Afro-Peruvian / American race…………..WTF?

        • jm says:

          MMP: “Dad’s American race” Since when did American become a race?

          Sounds to me like RZ, Jr is anti-Caucasian/white.

          Seriously I wonder if RZ, Jr. ever watches or listens to Zimmerman KKKlan interviews and thinks WTF are we talking about? My dad, mom, brother and I are raving idiots. Hope nobody notices.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Is Peru not in the Americas? What a bunch of mumbo-jumbo on Daddeo’s American race and Mumsy’s Afro-Peruvian race, whatever that’s supposed to mean. All designed as distraction to what Fat Fart Fogen actually did … shoot an unarmed kid in the heart.

      • Rachael says:

        Amen Trained Observer!!

      • Malisha says:

        Definition: “American Race”:
        (1) white; (2) right correct race; (3) the race that bestows superiority upon its members.

      • Jun says:

        The only American race are the natives hence “NATIVE AMERICAN”

        However because of how things happened, the country grew into the multicultural country it is today

        However many bigots attribute it as being a “white” country

    • Jun says:

      Numerous, not so tough guys, walked around the complex to film it

      It is not a dangerous place to live and as w18 put it, it is a nice neighborhood

      It is like any city, it is not perfect, but considerably, it seems mainly just thefts but where I live presently in Vancouver, we have thefts too but I would not call it dangerous to live there

      There are also housing projects here, like Cottonwood, and they are not dangerous places to live

      I think perhaps maybe issues with just a couple thefts here and there, but I dont feel it is a dangerous place to live

      • xy11xy says:

        The Retreat was suffering – like many neighborhoods – from the foreclosure crisis and everything that went with that: petty crimes, vandalism, empty homes etc.

        I’m betting most of the vandalism was done by departing owners, angry about being foreclosed. The renters who came into the community actually enlivened it, and allowed owners to hold onto their property – it was a good thing. However, they became scapegoats and were blamed for all the misery of those former proud homeowners brought low by having their homes taken away.

        George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon.

      • Trained Observer says:

        XY11 — You have a solid assessment. Foreclosed upon homeowners in Florida have been known to take off with appliances and even air-conditioning systems.

        Am curious to know whether Fogen was renting furnished or unfurnished, and how much he was paying or (knowing those two deadbeats) not paying in their lease agreement. Just curious.

        The key point always is that he killed Trayvon for now earthly excusable reason.

      • Malisha says:

        It wasn’t dangerous until Fogen chose to chase and shoot people. Remember, before he killed Trayvon Martin, another young African American man living there (Ibrahim Rashada) said that he no longer would take a walk around his neighborhood because of his fear of Fogen, who was profiling young Black men. Rashada said that when he wanted to stretch his legs, he would “drive into town” because he “didn’t want to be chased.”

        And he was a homeowner. I wonder if HE was the one who was escorted out of the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting…hmmm… there has been media silence about him for quite a while. Hmmmmm…

  30. Judy75201 says:

    One more post and it breaks 1,000.

  31. Trained Observer says:

    Most people don’t care if Fogen is sky-blue pink. He’s a killer, and a stupid lying one at that. Fogen’s brother is a jerk. Too bad Maher went easy on him when he needed to be curtly dismissed.

  32. Judy75201 says:

    So fogen “isn’t and never has been white”* according to Junior on the Maher show.

    *(Except on official forms, that is.)

    • Rachael says:

      Only when convenient, and he doesn’t feel it is convenient right now.

    • racerrodig says:

      Caucasian when Convenient.

    • Jun says:

      On thursdays, they are Puerto Rican

      Saturdays, they are Chinese

      1st of the month, then they are philipino

      • racerrodig says:

        When are they black…..every day that ends in a “P” I can’t wait for Wednesday !!

        Afro – Peruvian……A hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

        • jm says:

          Do you think that the reason RZJ might be protesting too much about being white race is there may be a hint of a hate crime in his brother’s future?

          Or could it be that RZJ is prejudiced against Caucasians.

          I don’t know what his deal is. He seems suspicious.

      • Jun says:

        Junior – We are Afro Peruvian but my dad is American (white guy) and that is who they represent

        Fogenhats Passport says he is white
        Fogenhats driver’s license says white
        Fogenhats told police, he was white

        Okay, now all of a sudden they are Afro Peruvian?

        • jm says:

          Jun says: “Okay, now all of a sudden they are Afro Peruvian?”

          Well Jun that just proves that GZ can’t be charged with a hate crime because if he is Afro Peruvian he can’t profile black teens with hoodies as suspicious. RIght?

        • racerrodig says:

          Friday is variety night. Pizza ‘n Afro Peruvian night, a little Chinese on the side with Matzo Balls to go with the Zimmerman name.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena, Shannon, Racer –

            Where are all the TV historians to point out to RZJr. that if Jews supposedly changed their names out of fear of the Nazis, RZ Sr’s father was born here in the USofA long before Herr Schickelgruber came to power in Germany during the 30’s.

            The Zimmermans likely emigrated from Germany in the late 1800’s to escape Kaiser Wilhelm’s policies – or more significantly, those of Wilhelm’s Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck.

            Why would Jews ever choose “Zimmerman” — “carpenter” as a surname? They would more likely choose “Kelly” or the like if they wanted a pseudonym.

            FYI, Bill Maher is Irish on his father’ side and Jewish on his mother’s and is non-religions by choice.

            Now, where are all the AFRUVIAN journalists/TV personalities when you need one?

            Personally, I vote for Miss Piggy to interview Junior.

          • racerrodig says:

            Not one of them is intelligent enough to understand any of this, let alone what they say.

            “Personally, I vote for Miss Piggy to interview Junior.”

            That won’t happen since SheLie has taken over for Miss Piggy so the interview would be “Biased”

          • P Mom…..I see you know a good bit of German history…..

            I specialize in German stamps postal history myself….

            I didn’t want to get involved in the name change part….YOU have done it quite well…… Mann following another word would indicate a persons trade, and have been used by Jews in Germany since the middle ages…. Kauf mann….Kauf business..a businessman….Fleisch…..flesh…mann…a butcher…..I’m sure you knew this……………Yet good to let others know very well that juniors BS about the name change and the nazi’s is an outright lie, and using it to even more appear the victim….just as fogen has done.

            Which in turn makes him more of a disgusting lying snake…..Just waitin’ for the Holocaust to get thrown in there also

            “We are descendants of the Afro Peruvian Holocaust victim’s”


          • racerrodig says:

            ““We are descendants of the Afro Peruvian Holocaust victim’s”

            Such tormented souls…..Now I’ll have to send them 2 cents to help alleviate the misery……….Oh the humanity….

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @ Jun,

        Stupid RZ Jr. appears to be confirming the fact that RG Sr. is NOT his bio father, as Dad has no Peruvian and no African genetic connections.

        What IS verified is that RG Sr. (“Roberto”) is the son of a US Navy
        junior officer from Minnesota who in 1946 went up to Ottawa to marry the daughter of the 2nd-in-command at the Cuban Embassy – a young Cuban woman whom he was dating in Washington when her Dad was posted to the US as a Cuban diplomat. So… RG Senior is half Zimmerman-from-the-US and half Cuban.

        So Grandpa Zimmerman (also a Robert, which is why his son was called “Roberto” by his Cuban mother — and to keep things straight, Roberto is now the ex-magistrate retired to Florida, with his Peruvian wife, Gladys.

        If Gladys is so prejudiced against Blacks, as her niece claims, is it becaise she thinks Roberto could have some Black history mixed in from the Cuban side — Roberto’s Cuban mother?

        Now it is true that there is a lot of African genetic material in the Cuban
        population but back in the 40’s — 70 years ago — Cubans of African descent
        did NOT get appointed to the Cuban Diplomatic Service.

        RZ JR saying he and his brother are Afro-Peruvians acknowledges only the Peruvian connection – Gladys’ sister, it seems, and whoever the bio father of these two losers are.

        RZ is flogging this stuff around in an attempt to portray his brother as color-blind and without prejudice but it sounds like the whole damned family is as hot as a Habanero about racial issues.

        Let us also keep in mind that Robert-from-Minnesota was in the navy during World War II when America was fighting Hitler. The family had been in the US for decades before Hitler’s rise to power. Who knows if they were ever Jewish?

        These are really terrible people. First they try to steal Trayvon’s death scream, and now they are stealing the history of the Holocaust from 8,000,000 rightful victims.

        Good God, have they no SHAME?


      • Malisha says:

        I want to address this idea that there is anything Jewish about the name Zimmerman; there is not. Robert Zimmerman Senior is not Jewish and never was Jewish; his ancestry is German. The fact that many Jews took German names (NOT NOT NOT, stupid Junior, NOT, when the Nazis rose to power — you made that up, you pontificating a55hole) centuries ago is reflected in the fact that many “Jewish names” are not really from any Hebraic origin but from German origin — such as Rosenberg. Rosenberg should be the most famous of the “Jewish names” because it is perfectly obvious that the name Rosenberg was both a German name (Alfred Rosenberg) and a common Jewish name (Julius Rosenberg) during the 20th Century. The point is that these names that Junior may have learned about during the 20th Century were German names adopted by Jews in Germany hundreds of years back.

        When the Nazis rose to power, there was no opportunity to change names to fool them. What a ridiculous idea! Not only does the FogenFamily apparently believe that whatever they say, absurd as it may be, is going to be believed (especially if they dress it up with some little historical factoids or even imaginary factoidationisms) and relied upon, making them even more experty than they previously were. Look at the progression:

        Fogen was an expert on solving crime

        Fogen graduated naturally to being an expert in preventing crime

        He also was an expert in mentoring the next generation so as to totally eradicate crime in our lifetime

        He became an expert in correcting and straightening up the Sanford Police

        He then became an expert in correcting homicide detectives’ false impressions

        He then rose to being an expert in explaining social and legal situations to a confused world

        Then his brother entered the scene as an expert on hate, especially that hate practiced by Blacks against whites who are forced to kill their kids

        Then Brother Junior became a media expert while Fogen became an expert on theology and interpreting god’s plans

        Then Brother Junior became an expert on race relations and gun control

        Then Fogen became an expert on security systems and logistics.

        Then Brother Junior became an expert on Holocaust Studies.

        NOW I THINK IT IS TIME TO STOP and just canonize both of these insufferable experts and after that, throw one of them in prison and let the other one become an expert on habeas corpus.

        BTW, what was Junior’s profession before he became an expert? Was he also an insurance broker or was he a mortgage fraud specialist? Or used cars? Or what? There is now reliable information that he was never a lawyer.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Well said..”

          “NOW I THINK IT IS TIME TO STOP and just canonize…” didn’t you mean “cannonball”

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Thank you, thank you. It is such a sacrilege for Jr. to attempt to garner sympathy for his crummy family by claiming they were somehow menaced by Hitler. They are not survivors of Belsen-Buchewald.

          They are liars, no-talent fame-seekers and one is a murderer. That’s all – but that’s enough.

        • cielo62 says:

          At one point it was said that he was a cosmetologist. But then again Robert Zimmerman is probably as common in cosmetology as it is jurisprudence. I’d like to know b

          Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        They do tell a lot of lies and bullshit and I feel bad for the people who actually fall for it

        First Pops says Fogenhats was on watch

        Fogenhats said he was going to target

        Then Junior says Fogenhats was on watch and concerned about crime

        Now Junior says he was going to Target

        Fogenhats said he was following

        Now he says he was not following

        Now Junior says he is a watch but he was not on watch, although he was neighborhood watching?

        Then Junior says you were not there but there was a head bashing although he was not there to witness it

        Then Junior concentrated on the nose breaking

        Then Junior claimed they were not racist but Fogenhats stalked Trayvon because of crime although he was just a black kid walking home from 7-11 with Skittles

        Then the doctor reports came out that there was maybe a broken nose, and it should get checked out first before making a conclusion

        Then Junior says the doctor said there was a broken and that is what the doctor said

        Their lies are always all over the place and never make any sense which is why I am glad the state has a timeline of events because no one will be able to follow the Fogenhats nonsense

      • Cercando Luce says:

        The new Z theme song:

    • PiranhaMom says:


      If, in fact, RZJr and GZ are the children of Mama Zimmerman’s sister and the sister’s Peruvian husband (or husbands) the reported gulf between Jr. and GZ may be based on racial
      animosity/parental favoritism.

      GZ clearly has Peruvian Indian genetics in his mix, while Jr. has European features. It’s possible that they have different fathers. If it was an intra-family adoption, RZSr. is not the father.

      Look at GZ’s nose in profile, and the close-set eyes. Clearly some Huanca Quechua genes there(indiginous Andean). Jr. does not have that.

      If the cousin’s reports are correct, Mama Zimmerman favored the paler race. She herself brought up, in the TV interview (where she phoned it in) that in Peruvians’ bloodlines, “there’s a little bit of everything.”
      (I’m paraphrasing here.)

      But it’s a stretch to describe GZ as “afro-peruvian” and I bet that ticks off a lot of genuine Africans and Peruvians.

      If the cousin’s report on the family’s racial intolerance is correct, GZ may always have been aware that his older brother with the European features was more favored. Jr. is also more articulate.

      It would be tough to be a kid and have Jr. as your older brother.

      • looneydoone says:

        Is this Roberto (Rob) Zimmerman the man who testified at the second bond hearing ?
        That family tree traces back to Spain (Catalonia), the USA, Austro/Hungarian/German-Jews who emigrated to Cuba and lived the good life as Caudillos. Mariano Brull y Caballeros was a career diplomat until an argument with Bautista . He and his USA born wife, Adelita Baralt Zacharie are buried in La Habana, Cuba

        • PiranhaMom says:


          TIsee that that website was constructed this month, but yes, that Rob (Roberto) is the one who testified.

          The website shows Rob married Ines, they had a daughter who married in 2004 to a Greek.

          I don’t know when Rob’s marriage to Gladys took place. I understand her family names is Meza or Mesa, they are from Peru, and the brother lives in the US with his family. That is likely the father of the cousin who accused GZ of sexual groping and abuse.

          The sister/half-sister/cousin to GZ and RZ that is so affectionate to GZ is named Susie. There is an older girl in the family, too. I don’t know her name, do you?

          None of this really matters, except where the brothers try to claim spurious racial bloodlines to prove they are free from prejudice.

          Another reason it may not matter at all is that, except for one US State Department biography (on and by Roberto’s father), all the other info we’ve gotten is from AjaMazin, who has been an agent provocateur on this blog.

      • looneydoone says:

        Piranha Mom,
        That website was *modified* this month. All the photos have been removed. (same with the Spanish language ancestry sites telefonica and sologeneologia, they’ve been recently *modified*)

        Roberto’s paternal grandparents are Clemence Zimmerman and Lillian Meta Becker, of Chicago (Lilian had a sister, Hattie)
        Roberto’s maternal grandparents are Mariano Brull y Caballero (son of Spanish Army officer Mario Brull stationed in Camaguey, Cuba) and NYC born Adelaida “Adelita” Baralt Zacahrie (daughter of Blanche Hutchings Zacharie (she’s the aunt who moved to Ottawa, Canada)

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Loonie –

          I’m getting bogged down in this. Can you post the original link again? Can’t locate it in 1,300 posts. I am trying to put the names together in Hispanic mode, which I THINK goes like this:

          Jose Gomez marries Jane Brown and their son Rodrigo becomes Rodrigo Gomez y Brown

          Rodrigo marries Martha Walter and their son Juan becomes Juan Gomez y Walter.

          Juan marries Natalia Rodriguez and their son Xavier becomes Xavier Gomez y Rodriguez

          I understand the last name (in the “double last name”) is the mother’s maiden name.

          I don’t know if, on marriage, the husband discards his mother’s maiden name and attaches his wife’s maiden name – or not.

          In CA the “y” is usually lost.

          I do know that the first name in the double names is the surname used here (CA) in news reports ( e.g., “Dr. Pedro Salazar Camacho won the Nobel Prize for Medicine. Salazar graduated from Stanford with his PhD in biochemistry in 1994 when he was 21 … “)

          Maybe Cielo can help out here. I studied Spanish in school but when I came to CA everybody laughed at me because I lithped. Castilian wasn’t their bag. I now speak “ag Spanish” and our discussions don’t go into las historias de las abeulitas.


          • 30 years in So. Ca. and the limits of my spanish are how to order drinks….and cussing………even had a hard time with Mexican menus 😦

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @MMPat –

            Who needs food when you can order drinks?

            In an earlier post you commented on my knowledge of German history. Actually, I don’t have much, but I’m a skier. I can get beer, breakfast and a doctor in four languages (used to be able to do it also in Japanese and Swedish, but that escapes me now). Knowing it in German was a REAL help to me, when I went over a cliff …

            Glad to know you stick with the essentials, Pat!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Which link? I’m not on the genealogy threads. You must be confusing me with someone else.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie Starr,

            Please ignore the post. It was addressed to Looney (as in LooneyDoone)and you receieved instead. I’ll start using full names where there’s a similarity. And the subject was just trolltrash, so just ignore it, please.


        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Looneydoone –

          OK, don’t bother digging up the link to the Zimmerman ancestry site. I found it.

          All this crap is devised by that nitwit anti-Israel Jew-hater AjaMazin, the pimply-faced
          troll in his parents basement somewhere.

          I should have known better than get involved in this blather – again.

          I apologize to everyone.

      • looneydoone says:

        You have the naming conventions correct. Roberto Zimmermann Brull maries Ines Tell de Palleja…their children are Zimmermann Tell.
        Roberto married Ines June 1975 in Barcelona. They have one daughter, Beatriz Zimmerman Tell born June 1976 in Chicago. She married Panayotis Llanos y Protagoras (son of Konstantino Llanos and Delores Protagoras) 5/22/04 in Athens, Greece. They have a son, Uylsses Llanos Zimmermann born 2007 in Tokyo

        Roberto’s mother (Silvia Brull Baralt) had a sister, Cristina born 1921 in Lima, Peru. She married Enrique Diago Superville. They had 2 children, Maria-Cristina Diago Brull born 1951 in Brussels and Fernando Diago Brull born 1955 in la Habana, Cuba. He married a Cuban woman, MariCarmen Celaya Gonzalez. They had 4 children before divorcing (they’ve been *modified* out of the ancestry sites recently, Aug 2012) The most recent *modifications* were made one week ago (11 Feb 2013)

        There’s no record of divorce for Roberto and Ines. In fact, they were married as recently as Nov 1999. The obit for her mother, Mercedes de Palleja Fabra was published by la Vanguardia…Rob/hijo en ley, Ines/hija and Beatriz/nieta are mentioned as being in attendance.

        IF I were to guess, I suspect Grandma Cristina is Roberto’s maternal Aunt (sister of his mother Silvia)…and the boys her grandchildren.

        I’ve given names you can search…too many *modifications* to the once useful ancestry sites have been made (last Aug and this month). Many of the links I’ve found will not open on your USA servers.

        Isn’t speculation fun ??

        • PiranhaMom says:


          This will sound uncivil, and in recognition of that I apologize for my boorishness, but anything extracted from or via AjaMazin’s anti-Israel, Jew-hating site ends up in my computer’s trash, including the information you have supplied. We are on the Professor’s site, dedicated to solving a crime based on bigotry, and in the wider sense to fighting bigotry. Utilizing AjaMazin’s site as a source is unacceptable to me.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      To be fair, the official whiteness is because of the way race and ethnicity is handled via gov’t forms. Why do we keep rehashing that issue?

  33. Lonnie Starr says:

    On the 711 video:

    Trayvon has 2 twenty dollar bills we know his father gave him and we know that all that’s left on him later is the 2 twenty dollar bills and a dime. Look carefully at the amount of change the clerk dumps in the draw, it’s quite a small pile. Arizona iced tea 1.50? Skittles .75? Nope that doesn’t look like 2.25 he hands over. More like AzIt 1.99 Skittles 1.10 or 3.09, 2 bills and 1.09 in change is more like it.

    What did he go back for? Has anyone seen those gags where you crazy glue a coin, like a quarter to the floor, then watch as people get disgusted trying to secretly grab it? Quite an amusing trick for a clerk at a convenience store night shift. Notice how Trayvon acts after he tries the pick up. He appears to walk nonchalantly towards the back of the store, as if he never stooped for anything, then turns and heads back out.

    Here’s the serious thing. Notice that Trayvon leaves the store, but does not start back east to home. Instead he waits some 25 seconds and a car arrives. See that headlamp? It seems to contain the three stooges, who come in the store while Trayvon continues to wait outside. Eh??? He finished his business on an errant trip to the store, yet he waits for (what would be) strangers to arrive? At parking lot speeds 25 seconds is more than enough time for him to get underway towards home, if he is not expecting to meet anyone.

    Strangers who don’t want to be seen in the store with Trayvon, and so don’t arrive until after he comes out? Guess they knew he’d wait a little while for them eh?

    These strangers go inside themselves, yet they’re careful to keep their own faces hidden from the camera. So, just who is this white guy flashing his braids, who travels with two black guys? Could it be Ransberg? You know the white guy who had the stolen laptop in his backpack, the one that Emmanuel Burgess stole from Dreamcis then claimed when the police came.

    Holy Coincidence Batman, these guys who would certainly be known to the neighborhood watch captain, are here in the store, arriving shortly after TM leaves and they’re hiding their faces. First trip to the store in 6 days and there’s a party there to greet him????

    Isn’t it a wee bit strange that after 6 nights of staying at home, Trayvon suddenly decided to walk to the store and picks a rainy Sunday night to do it? For an iced tea? Skittles? You don’t suspect that with two teens in the house Tracey and Brandy didn’t have loads of snacks in the house? And why is Trayvon suddenly so antsy? Tracy and Brandy have barely been gone for 2 hours, the game is on in one more hour, and Trayvon has been talking to DD all day anyway, so why does he suddenly need privacy? What? From Chad? Chad is stalking around the house trying to listen in on Trayvon’s phone call? Not playing his engrossing video games? Notice also that Trayvon takes a look or two towards the door of the 711. Is he expecting someone?

    Nope, if you ask me Trayvon didn’t just up and go to the store. He was lured out by an invite to meet with these boys there. The only thing that remains to be discovered is how and when the arrangement was made. The fact that they travel by car gives them an idea tracking advantage. If they also know where Trayvon lives, then they don’t even have to follow behind him, they can get ahead of him, making it impossible for Trayvon to detect that he’s being tracked.

    • kllypyn says:

      You are making assumptions he may have just been waiting for the rain to let up a bit.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        That’s my thought as well.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Nope, that won’t sell, go read about the rain data, google Tchoupi’s analysis. It started drizzling lightly shortly after TM began walking back some five minutes or so later. When he walked out of the store all he had to do was keep going towards home, those three guys would never have met him.

        When people leave a store with nothing else to do, they walk home beginning immediately, just as Trayvon does after his business with those guys is settled, whatever it was.

        But no. He exits the store and waits, and waits and suddenly this car pulls up, and still Trayvon doesn’t leave. Two of these three guys come into the store, the guy I think is Ransberg takes up a position in center screen and unfurls his braids for the camera. The Tampa Bay Times has a story that says that a Thomas Ransberg has dreadlocks, is black and a 20 year old home owner in RATL. The Ransburg the police stop and search with the laptop in his backpack is white. They give no first name or address for him. All we know about him is he travels with two black guys. It used to be three black guys until Burgess got arrested.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Now you’re sounding like a Treestumper. Hopefully for a different reason.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS Teenagers sometimes do illogical things just because they can. I’ve raised four of them and also remember quite well being one myself.

  34. Hi all… it’s been a while. but I was searching Zimmerman and Trayvon videos and came across and at the 1:20 mark it clearer has Zimmerman admitting to being on top of Trayvon… I don’t know if we have caught that before…. this may be the missing smoking gun… what are your thoughts???

    • racerrodig says:

      Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent…….you have the right to an attorney………”

      “Ummmmm, okay, but, um……why would I do that, I have so many more versions to tell ya…..”

      I think I’ll get this 200 gallon cast iron pot, put 100 gallons of oil in it, light a fire under it for, oh…..say a few hours, and just go swimming in it……Duhhhhhhhhhhh

      Remember, any actual “Human Being” would never have given all of this up !! Can you imagine if he just kept his Afro – Peruvian lips from flapping, hired a lawyer and made them prove it, like a normal person would do ……….

      I’ll take “Stone Dead Idiots” for $5,000.00 Alex.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I have long thought that piece of the Sanford PD video was one of the most significant pieces of evidence, because GZ was clearly not aware he was being recorded on camera – or, if so advised, forgot it as he was playing to his audience.

      Yes, I noted those words, and also the opening words on that video by the SPD stress-test operator, that GZ did not have any “play” in placing the gun, in other words, as GZ was describing the shooting, there was little room for him to get the gun between himself and Trayvon (if GZ were ACTUALLY undernesth Trayvon).

      Then there’s GZ’s statement that he was “on him.” I expect the argument O’Mara would make is that it meant “on target” (i.e. barrel sighted directly on top of Trayvon’s heart — although that is hardly less damning).

      Third is the grasping motion of GZ’s dominant left hand, (repeated later in the on-site filmed re-creation for Sanford P.D.) showing that GZ had Trayvon under his control by grasping his shirts, which confirms the alignment of the bullet holes in the shirts vis-a-vis the bullet hole in Trayvon.

      Fourth is GZ’s outstretched right arm as he demonstrates how he shot Trayvon. The trajectory of the bullet, as reported by forensic analysis DISPROVES WITHOUT DOUBT that GZ, on the ground, could have moved his right arm forward (or in any way) and shoot Trayvon in the heart and achieve that bullet trajectory through Trayvn’s heart, UNLESS Trayvon was levitating in horizontal plane above GZ below.

      THUS, GZ lies when he states that he shot Trayvon when GZ was trapped on the ground below Trayvon.

      I hope that the Miranda Rights GZ signed away that night include his signing away any right to object to the Sanford PD video filmed that night being introduced as evidence.

      Thank you Marshalette, for posting that video. Do you know who made it? What is its source?

  35. Rachael says:

    I saw it on youtube. Barf.

  36. Jun says:

    In my opinion, if the affidavit covers everything within scope of Crump as a court witness, then at most Crump should simply swear by it in court, and that is that and answer any questions within scope at trial or maybe perhaps a limited deposition

    I do not see the harm of the deposition, however, it should be within scope, and I do feel it is a waste of time considering Crump told him who was there and explicitly explained everything in detail

  37. Jun says:


    can you scan and send me the police reports or just summarize them for me?

    I’d like to send it to the Benjamin Crump Facebook support page, so the truth can get out regarding the alleged “rash of crime victims in the complex Trayvon was murdered in”

    • Malisha says:

      Jun, ask Professor to privately send me your e-mail address and I’ll transmit the information to you next week, OK?
      I’m getting ready to do a new FOIA for this year’s (1/26/2012 – 1/26/2013) crime information from RTL. But for last year’s, the only serious violent crime in that neighborhood was the killing of Trayvon Martin.

      And only three of the eight “break-ins” were real residential burglaries; five were other things like somebody stole a bike from public area or someone took a copper pipe from a construction site.

    • Malisha says:

      Jun, there is now a “hushmail” account for transmitting documents in the Trayvon Martin case. If you write to:, and put in the “re” line: from Jun on the Leatherman thread, if you say something in the body of the e-mail that makes me believe that the e-mail actually comes from you, I’ll send you the documents I got from the SPD and you can do whatever you like with them, print them out, transmit them, post them on-line, whatever. OK?

      Be sure to give me something that will make me think it’s you.


  38. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    This is just a small part of Jr’s reply to Maher’s question of, “Do you really think that had no effect on it if he was instead of a black teenager wearing a hoodie if it was Mitt Romney in mom jeans and a cadigan?

    Jr: I think that this would’ve happened not because George was racist, but because he really had a problem with with crime, and that community was victimized constantly by crime.

    So, what’s he saying?

    • ladystclaire says:

      He doesn’t even know what he was saying but, he made damn sure to mention the lie about Lard Ass’s head being banged again and again on concrete. this simpleton knows damn well that did not happen but, he and his other morally bankrupt family members insist on retelling this lie which is as stale as their ass. it’s going to be a blessing when this lie is finally put to rest and, the entire Zimmerman family will look like the liars that we all know they are.

    • groans says:

      @ChrisNY – Hope this helps. 🙂

      He’s saying that little brother committed murder in the second degree.

      But he wants to clarify that little brother’s depraved mind is NOT rooted in racism. Rather, little brother’s depravity stems from the fact that he HAS ISSUES. Specifically, little brother REALLY HAS A PROBLEM with “crime.” Additionally, crime has happened CONSTANTLY. Therefore, little brother HAS A CONSTANT PROBLEM.

      He points out that, as a result of little brother’s constant problem, the VERY SAME sequence of events would have occurred even if MITT ROMNEY had been in Trayvon’s shoes.

      IN A NUTSHELL, Junior’s saying: What’s really wrong with all this criminal hoop-la is that nobody understands the full extent of my little brother’s depraved mind; the truth is, he’s an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY KILLER.

    • Jun says:

      He’s basically saying Fogenhats is not racist but he really believes every single black male is a criminal and responsible for the imaginary break ins in the complex when

      w18 – this is a nice neighborhood and this does not happen

      w2 – I never noticed any rash of break ins

      Mary Cutcher & Selma – Never noticed any rash of break ins

      Police reports – no rash of break ins. They reported 8 thefts in the year that led up to the murder. That is barely a crime spree or crime problem

      • racerrodig says:

        So you’re saying FogenPhoole and his brother, and Taaffe, and Osterman, Papa and Mummsie lied……I’m Phreaking shocked !!

        What is astounding is the fact that Papa is a retired Magistrate and Military Intelligence, and FogenPhoole spent 7 + years in Criminal Justice and hung out with the cops, his friend Osterman is an ex – cop and not 1 brain cell amongst them said “……maybe we better think this out a little bit more….” Naaaaaaaaa, everybody else is stupid…..

        “The gang that couldn’t lie straight”

        • To quote junior

          “Dad’s American race”……..WTF?

          I have yet to see a questionnaire where “American” is a box that can be checked in regards to ones race.

          So instead of “Afro Peruvian” LMAO……it should be “Afro Peruvian American” to include his dad’s race.

          He also mentions slaves in Peru…….trying to insinuate that his ancestry goes back to Peruvian slaves?

          Give me a break………………………………….

          • racerrodig says:


            Just sayin ………………..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Boy do we ever need a new thread, this one is taking almost half a minute to load.

            Anyway; Bill probably wanted a quiet interview where he could operate on the issues in a way that RZJ never does: Sensibly!

            Now that RZJ has openly stated that his family is African/Peruvian he’s cut GZ and the families fund raising efforts off from the white supremacists. If so, we’re going to hear a whole lot of screaming for money in the next few weeks.

            Anyone who visits the Pro Z sites should be sure to thank them, one and all for there unbiased support of this fine upstanding African Peruvian family. Be sure to remark “who says you guys can’t be cured of your racism?” LOL, I’m sure they’ll get a kick out of that, since the new racism is to deny that there’s any such thing as racism.
            It’ll also tie them in knots. Just as well.

          • racerrodig says:

            28 seconds before I was able to type. And this computer is rocket fast.

            Afro – Peruvian….This clown has no idea what to say. You’re right, no more mention of FogenPhoole at the Klan meetings!!!! I know for fact the donations are at a dribble, some days $0.00 and some days a whopping $100.00 !!

            MMP said he donated 0.02 which cost FogenPhoole 28 cents to process. Hmmmmmmm maybe there are a lot of “donations” that are well……..not exactly helping. Oh….and remember O’ Mara said they were not taking donations from racists.

            Sooooooooo that would mean MMP is the only one !! ?? Take a bow my man !!

      • Jun says:

        The other stupid thing is even if there was a crime spree, it does not mean Fogenhats should add to it by stalking and murdering a kid for trying to get home with freakin Skittles

      • Jun says:

        I actually watched it now

        I dont think Junior realized that Bill Maher was making fun of him

        Bill repeatedly said to him

        “You were not there, you do not know that….”

        “You can not honestly be objective…”

        Now Junior is saying Stand Your Ground does not apply LOL

        He is now claiming Fogenhats was unable to retreat

    • Rachael says:

      Paranoid about “crime” that he believed happened only by black males.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’ll answer that by quoting Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe

      “..he was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore…” “..he was the perfect storm…”

      Read that as : He’s a vigilante since there was no crime spree.

      However, FogenPhooles a racist and said “…these assholes they always get away….” showing he’s a racist vigilante.

      That was simple…..

      • Jun says:

        He was too mad because Trayvon had the new Tropical Skittles

        He could not take it anymore

        Fogenhats only had 40 cents, he could not buy them like Trayvon

        Perhaps if Fogenhats did not stalk, attack, and murder Trayvon, he could have shared Skittles with Fogenhats and also lent him some money

        • racerrodig says:

          I share Skittles all the time, no big deal.

          “…what are you doin’ round here..”

          “…not much, just walking home homie…”

          “…you sure ’bout that….been a lot of break in’s…”

          “…really, I hadn’t heard, but here, have some Skittles, they always put ya in a good mood..”

          “…wow, thanks, my wife never cooks and I’m starvin’….thanks !!”

          See………easy !!

      • Jun says:

        Considering Fogenhats’ psychological profile

        He lacks self control

        What he did to Trayvon was beyond an overreaction

        a) There was truly nothing to be suspicious about

        b) He is not a cop and lacks any detective skills to pursue truth

        c) He acts out of anger

        d) There was absolutely no crime committed by the victim Trayvon, and Fogenhats had zero proof of any crime, so he would have no right to follow, or stalk

        e) Theft is a form of an inanimate object. That is what insurance is for. Nothing to take someone’s life over.

        f) The kid simply asked why you were stalking him. A simple “I thought you were doing something wrong…” and the kid could have just said, I am just trying to get home with Skittles for my little brother, you scared the crap out of me, stalking me like that. You are a stranger, I should call the police on you for stalking me like that. The police would have arrived, and Trayvon would be alive, and Fogenhats would not have needed to stage his own injuries and the scene to try and get away with murder.

        g) It was a teenage kid, there was no need to grab the kid out of the blue. He has a right to his personal space.

        h) The kid was screaming for mercy and pleading, just let it go, show some mercy, there was nothing a kid with candy could do to Fogenhats

        • racerrodig says:

          Very well said….remember the Nazi’s used to kill people screaming for mercy also…..They stopped people who were just minding their own business and most of them never got home either.

          I’d say FogenPhooles is pretty much bad news.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        …And that dear friends is fogens red hand.
        |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

    • Malisha says:

      Jr.’s saying (without even understanding the meaning of his own words, apparently) my wonderful brother did not kill him for being Black, but for being a Criminal, because Blacks are Criminals. My brother doesn’t hate Blacks; he hates Criminals! It’s just a regrettable fact of life that Blacks are Criminals! Don’t blame us for THAT — we’re Afro-Peruvians!

  39. ay2z says:

    From the Orlando Sentinel, David Murder Jurors Talk article.

    (I am sure the judge instructions to the jury included SYG)

    This poses some questions for the Trayvon killing case. Couple of points, in the media, the term ‘Trayvon attacked’ or the killer ‘was attacked’ has been common. Attack used as an offensive rather than defensive move aka broken bloodied nose. (broken maybe not, but they’ve put the blood out front and center every chance they get through the media)

    So, through the media, the jury pool may already believe Trayvon was the attacker, vs the shooter grabbing and once Traybon fought back in defense, was gunned down.

    The first line says ‘state failed to combat …. the self-defense claim’ of the killer, and in the second paragraph, the juror says prosecution failed to prove NOT JUSTIFIABLE’ homicide.

    I understood that it was the defense that had to prove justifiable, or SYG, but when included with the trial, the jurors, not the judge, made the ruling on self defense as part of the trial verdict?

    Medical proof wanted by the jurors, the prosecution so far, has no medical proof of a negative, skull fractures, no definitive proof of broken nose, concussion, etc.

    Last comment by the defense lawyer, shows that the jury did consider the SYG within the trial.

    I’m confused about SYG, I thought that was a judge’s ruling in a pre-trial hearing and if it goes into the trial proper, the judge decides (according to Pipitone’s report on click orlando.).

    If potential jurors know about SYG and have their own interpretations of the law and how it’s applied, as has been the topic of media discussion (ie: Houston 8, PBS panel), how can the jury be expected to apply the law for a verdict without being on side with the defense?

    Article quote-

    “Another juror, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said the state failed to combat Davis Sr.’s self-defense claim.

    “I did not believe that there was enough evidence that the prosecution presented to prove that it was not a justifiable [homicide],” she said, adding that the jury “knew that he had been attacked” by his son.

    “Neither the prosecution, nor the defense, denied that,” she said.

    The juror said she would have liked to have seen evidence of the extent of Davis Sr.’s injuries: “There was no medical proof at all of anything, which is one thing we wish we’d had.”

    After the verdict Thursday night, prosecutor Jim Altman said the state did its job at trial.

    “We presented all the facts to the jury, they were instructed on the law,” he said. “That’s our system.”

    Defense attorney Robert Nesmith said jurors “did a wonderful job in analyzing the evidence and, in particular, making a correlation between the ‘stand your ground’ [law] and the evidence that we presented.”

    • Jun says:

      The way I see it

      The forensics and ballistics and the witnesses put a damper on any of Fogenhats claims

      Trayvon would be looked at like Davis Sr. in the case, because Fogenhats was the one who followed Trayvon (aggravated stalking) and would not leave the kid alone and respect his personal space

      Once Fogenhats caught Trayvon, he confronted Trayvon and then attacked Trayvon (w18 noted that Fogenhats was using an angry voice, commanding and controlling) (w8 heard Trayvon after asking Fogenhats why he was stalking him, then heard Trayvon say GET OFF)

      But the thing is, Trayvon cant even be looked at like Davis Sr., because Trayvon was literally found not red handed, no foreign dna on his hands sleeves cuffs, so he did not even attack Fogenhats in self defense, although the kid had the right

      All Trayvon did was scream for help and out of fear

      Then the defendant killed the kid

      The only person on scene who was caught red handed was Fogenhats, as he had blood on his hands, and was the only party of the two with blood on his hands

      The blood on his nose, looks like he smeared it on himself there as it was drying and not even bleeding, off the tip of his nose

      The blood drip pattern on the defendant’s head showed that he was upright the whole time he was bleeding there, but titled his head forward at a 45 degree angle, hence it dripping toward his chin

      I think it is safe to say, he was caught redhanded killing the kid and redhanded in regards to his own injuries

      I think the main part of it that is similar is Fogenhats followed Trayvon to attack him, as that was his intent, shown by the fact he attacked Trayvon once he caught him

      Just like Davis Sr’s son followed him

      • Xena says:

        @Jun or anyone else. Can someone please tell me where to find info on the Davis Sr. case — a link, State, first name. When I Google, too much is returned and none of it is in the State of Florida.

      • Jun says:

        I just googled it

        This SYG law is crazy

        but the main difference is the state did not sound confident

    • Thanks for this info! i’m going to check it out. it’s VERY interesting!!!!!
      but i couldn’t tell what was written by the Orlando sentinel and what you were making points about! lol

      about what Tony Pipitone said about the SYG: you are correct and he is wrong.

      If gz has the Immunity hearing along side the murder 2 trial the jury will only give a verdict on the murder 2 and the lessors and NOT the immunity part.

      So what would happen would be once the trial/hearing was all finished the Judge would rule on immunity 1st. If she does not grant gz immunity the jurors would be handed the case and go ahead with deliberations and render their verdict.

      If the judge grants gz immunity then the jurors would go home and gz would walk out as a free man. And world would never be right again.

      BUTTTTTT, can someone please tell us how likely it would be that gz would be given even MORE special treatment by allowing the immunity hearing and trial simultaneously?? has anyone else been allowed to do this? and what can we do to prevent this? because i damn sure don’t want him to have this advantage!
      AND IT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE in all kinds of ways, one being financially, and another is the same thing that OS article was talking about shifting the burden back to the state in front of the jury!!!!
      BTW, is that what this David case did?? he had them both at the same time???

  40. Looolooo says:

    Am I the only one here who’s pissed?! Bill blew it! He threw nothing but softballs at Jr., just like Geraldo, Hannity, Piers, and every other interviewer has. Damn it! He never even mentioned the total lack of GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands, the fact that GZ refused to go a Dr. that night, Trayvon was not an octopuss, GZ’s history of aggressive and confrontational behavior, nor his numerous everchanging scenarios. And to add insult to injury,….. he (Bill) compliments him by stating that he’s a good spokesman, and WILL have a very nice career in television. WTF!

    And on top of all that, he claimed that Christopher Dorner was a racist who disliked Fahreed Zakharia becasue he’s Indian with brown skin, and should be deported. Huh? I read his manifesto, and he simply stated that he thought FZ was anti-American, and thats why he thinks he should be deported. I love FZ, but I also think that he displays anti-American tendencies. As does arrogant Piers Morgan (also mentioned), whom I agree with in regards to gun control C. Dorner was an out right murderer, whom I suspect got railroaded, and the L.A. PD are covering up something big. We’ll see.

    Well I can only hope that RZJ agrees to an interview with Lawrence O’Donnell and or Martin Bashir.

    • towerflower says:

      It was disappointing to say the least. I would love him to really be interviewed with the facts of the case thrown at him.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      looo- I was disgusted with Maher’s comment to Jr about him being a good spokesman and has a future in the industry…Jr.’s head just got bigger.
      I will admit…he is good at deflecting a question that he can’t answer, it just pisses me off that none of these hosts have enough brains or you know what to address it or bring up the pertinent issues. Are they afraid he will get mad and walk off the set? I just don’t get it.

      • Looolooo says:

        I’m with you CNYL…..I just don’t get it either.:-( I really hate to say this, but ….. this may be a case that calls for an African American interviewer such as Tavis Smiley, Roland (even though he annoys me) Martin, Toure’ (him too), Johanathan Capehart (he’s brilliant), Charles Blow, etc., or even Oprah at this point. I just don’t feel that the various non-black interviewers understand, notice, or care enough about the obvious racial under and over tones of this case. 😦

        What do you guys think?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        As a Caucasian I think the interviewers are not doing their job.

        You know who has the audience and the intelligence and could do a good job of this? Barbara Walters.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        ALso, we know from last summer that the Z crew make demands on the interviewers, so we can surmise that Jr is getting paid in some way for his appearance. Why Bill Maher didn’t mention the Randy Hahn interview is another dereliction of duty.

      • I am really not sure why these shows agree to have Jr as a guest. Frankly, if Bill would have asked Jr. ANYTHING specific about the case, Jr’s answer would have been conjecture, so why bother? Jr was not there the night go Feb 26. What makes Jr’s opinion more important than yours or mine? I agree with the interviewers’ staying away from direct lines of questioning concerning the events of that night. The questions he asked called for conjecture. Anything about that night… Jr was not there.

        My issue is simple… Why feed this guy in the first place by inviting him on their shows? He really has nothing to offer except entertainment and ratings.

      • The topic that Jr should be asked about is why he has such a “We are not racist” message when he aligns himself with known racists. Put it back in Jr and only Jr. Jr’s antics are no longer about GZ. They are all about Jr. Keep the questioning where it belongs.

      • ay2z says:

        Maybe Maher can get jr a bit part on the future remake of a show like ‘Murder She Wrote’, just like where Maher started.

        That would be a springboard into politics has he’s alluded to.

        I feared that Maher would be a soft joke to junior, not going to watch this.

    • Xena says:

      As disappointing as this might sound, responsible journalists and their producers are not going to litigate the case in the media. Before GZ was arrested, we heard from many of them and they were standing in line trying to get someone to appear. The goal was to get out the information and jump start the State of Florida into conducting an investigation.

      I have spoken with some reporters and the general response I’ve received is, “We don’t need to.” Let me emphasize the word “need.” Junior is not an attorney for the defense. Responsible journalists give him no honor of respect of being qualified to discuss facts about his brother’s case.

      Has anyone noticed that Junior is not being interviewed after hearings? O’Mara is. Think of the possibility that O’Mara has spoken to the media and said to keep the mic out of Junior’s face. The more Junior talks, the more motions for continuances will be denied because his aim is to taint the jury pool. The court is moving GZ’s case along as quickly as possible so that Junior will STFU.

      Additionally, let’s take a clue from Junior. What is his mantra? Race. The federal investigation is ongoing. Each time Junior opens his mouth, he tells federal investigators that his family consists of members who have racial identity crisis.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I think the media folks who do give him a platform to spread his lies should cease this BS. tainting a possible jury pool is exactly what he wants to do and those media outlets who have in on, are just giving him the opportunity to do just that.

      • Jun says:

        They do not need to litigate the case but a responsible journalist is about presenting the truth to the community or perhaps opinions

        They should double check Junior’s statements before allowing it to air because a lot of it was false

      • Cercando Luce says:

        So, if Sean told the interviewers “we don’t need you to do that,” they wouldn’t. They would emphasize the the word “need,” unlike the defendant, and thus can’t latch onto the crime that was committed.

        • Xena says:


          So, if Sean told the interviewers “we don’t need you to do that,” they wouldn’t. They would emphasize the the word “need,” unlike the defendant, …

          Yep. You got it.

      • Xena I read your comment about this last night and it helped me sleep better! 🙂

        I was furious with what I saw and then to top it off Bill tells him he’d be a good spokesman! it’s so irritating when he keeps getting the attention he wants!! It’s not like he’s had to make any sacrifices for it either. Like if these interviewers were to spank and humiliate his ass like he deserves! JUST ONCE i’s love to see that happen! And NO, I don’t want a black person to do it, I want a white person to do it! If he went on Capphart’s or someone the idiots would just say it was because they were black!
        It has to be a white person so they will stop saying this issue is divided by race! I hate to hear that, especially since I know it’s NOT TRUE! Stupid Geraldo said that the other day and I really could feel my blood burning!! And then last night I sat there and stared and almost started crying! really!!! it’s so frustrating to see this over and over again! But i came here and found your comment and it made me feel much, much better. Thanks for your wisdom, I’m know I’m not the only one who needs to hear it!

        • PiranhaMom says:


          The “Zimmerman” clan (as claimed by Jr.) are Jews who changed their names to something German because they feared Hitler’s wrath?

          While Jr.’s lineage is a little murky, Senior Zim’s is plenty clear, since his father was here in the US of A long before Herr Schickelgruber turned into the uber-Nazi.

          If Jews were adopting non-Hasidic names, who would they take on “Zimmerman?” Why not Kelly?
          How many Kellys keep a kosher kitchen?

        • Xena says:

          @Shannon. No, thank YOU! Regarding Black journalists, apparently Junior doesn’t want to interview with them. He ran out of bigoted racists and went to a snarker on cable — didn’t realize that the career statement is because Junior is unemployed.

          • LOL yeah after i saw it mentioned here that the spokesman comment was probably meant to be sarcastic, it sure makes it a lot easier to swallow!!

            as for black journalists. i have a feeling jr would go on ANYWHERE he could! he’s such a smuck he thinks he could out wit them! LOLO i tweeted some idiot who was kissing up to Mahar and jr by agreeing w. him that jr could have a career in show business and interesting dialog.
            I said, So you think this uneducated buffoon’s> @ JR repeating same old dog whistles interesting dialog, you should at least expect some originality for your money!
            I wrote them back saying

    • camanokat says:

      LAPD corruption? Heaven forbid. I lived in WLA and the Marina for a dozen years. The corruption is legendary. And I’m a white, middle class mom.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “(Bill) compliments him by stating that he’s a good spokesman, and WILL have a very nice career in television.”

      Knowing Bill, he may have meant that sarcastically or in a bi-level kinda way.

      • Xena says:

        Bill was taking a snark at Junior being unemployed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think maybe Bill also just let Jr. run on because although he speaks intelligently, he’s no more credible than many spokespeople on the far right. He might have been amused by letting Jr’s tapes unwind. It doesn’t necessarily take a lot of hard questions or sparring to reveal the nonsense. They do that quite well themselves, just as Fogen did on Hannity with a supportive interview. I’ve always felt that Piers and everyone else has done just fine with him. Why stoop to his level?

    • xy11xy says:

      I know. The vein in my neck started to pulsate when I heard him start with a (stupid, unnecessary) falsehood:

      That racism is complicated because black Dorner wanted Fareed deported because he’s brown and has an accent. In fact, Dorner said Fareed should be deported – instead of Piers – because Fareed had nothing good to say about America, while Piers did – in Dorner’s opinion. I am sure Dorner knew people are not deported for either their opinions or their skin colour. So, it’s clear the statement was tongue-in-cheek.

      Bill is ordinarily very sharp, so that opening was fawning and pathetic.

      I do not understand the purpose of the interview. Robert Zimmerman is a documented liar. His statements to media about what his brother did that night were shown to be false when George’s own statements to police were released.

      If Bill wasn’t prepared to do a good job, why do the interview?

      • bettykath says:

        This seemed to be a standard interview, one for information, not laughs. Maher’s previous rush-to-judgement-before-any-evidence-released comments may have also played a part. Besides, what better way to improve ratings?

        • xy11xy says:

          Well let’s see….

          1. What is your race?

          paraphrase: Afro-Peruvian

          2. But Zimmerman is a Jewish name?

          Robert Zimmerman: “It is and I think that our father is, ah, from German descent…”

          3. But not Jewish?

          paraphrase: No, German Jews changed their names to Zimmerman to hide from Nazis and his father is descended from one of those Germans.

          Makes it sound like he’s saying his father is one of those German Jews who changed their names to Zimmerman to hide from the Nazis.

          A little sleight-of-hand there….

          Robert Zimmerman thinks he’s a very clever fast-talker.

        • jm says:

          bettykath says: “This seemed to be a standard interview, one for information, not laughs. Maher’s previous rush-to-judgement-before-any-evidence-released comments may have also played a part.,,,,:

          What information did we get? Per GZ per RZ, Jr, he was not on watch, but rather going to Target.

          GZ’s head was beat into cement and a “doctor” diagnosed GZ with a broken nose. That’s not true according to evidence I have seen.

          The only information I got was when Bill Maher pointed out people wear hoodies when it rains and RZ, Jr agreed and audience applauded in agreement and that without a gun involved this would be a fight with a winner and a loser – not a dead kid walking home from the store to a condo where he was staying in the community, to which the audience applauded in agreement.

          Oh yeah I did find out RZ, Jr has been in trouble with the law before but he takes the fifth as to what kind of trouble. It was kind of like typical info as a result of diarrhea of the mouth coming from the Zimmerman KKKlan.

      • Rachael says:

        I know I was sure disappointed! However, I do think there were a few times that he was actually mocking Jr. and Jr. didn’t get it, as well, every time anyone gives Jr. a chance to open his mouth, they watch him put his foot in it, so that is always good. But yeah, still a disappointment considering.

      • ay2z says:

        Maher involved with police and murder investigations earlier in hs career.

  41. racerrodig says:

    Since there is the “Team Trayvon Warriors” on Xena’s blog, I’ll share a song I rewrote over there, since this an open thread

  42. rnewton32 says:

    At first I was kinda angry at Maher for not being more agressive, but now I think his use of humor actually got junior to see the obvious like people where hoodies when it rains, not to break into homes.

  43. towerflower says:

    It was very tame. I was surprised that considering how Bill Maher has responded before on the subject it was an easy pass for Jr.

    One of the things I noted is that with all the uproar of GZ’s media classification of “white-Hispanic”, Jr. classifies their family as afro-Peruvian…… mention of any white from his father’s side.

    Jr. admitted he has had scrapes with the law but won’t say what.

    • Jun says:


      How lame

      Did he try lying on air?

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I have no proof, but I think I read somewhere that he might have had a dwi or dui or something…me thinks he likes his drink at night.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Maher let Jr. go on too long with same crap about his we are first and foremost American…but we aare afro-peruvian. When asked about his last name sounding Jewish, Jr explained that it’s German and he thinks that the Jewish adopted the name to hide the fact that they were jewish back then.

      I like the part when Jr. was trying to explain how things change fast, such as florida weather. He went on to say that it could be raining lightly, then pouring and Maher says, ” that’s why you wear hoodies” and Jr. laughs and says, “right”….I don’t think Jr got it.LOL

      • towerflower says:

        He also never really gave an explanation for GZ’s changing story from he’s up to no good on the NEN call to he was looking into windows at the PD. He just went into the HIGH crime rate of Sanford. I wish he had gone into other areas of his changing stories about that night. But like I said it was very tame.

      • Jun says:

        w18 – this is a nice neighborhood and stuff like this does not happen

        w2 – I never noticed any rash of break ins

        Mary Cutcher & Room mate – Never noticed any rash of break ins

        Police reports – no rash of break ins either


        • racerrodig says:

          So you’re saying he lied ?? I’m Pfreaking shocked !!

          Say that 5 times real fast !

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Maher: There was a fight- all I’m saying is without the guns involved,it would’ve been just a guy who lost a fight.
        Jr.: I think it, I in…(audience applauding) I agree that’s a factor and its worth talking about, it’s a conversation we should have, but I think people like George and other concealed carriers may have that weapon to begin with be ause of the situation they find themselves in and it wasn’t 90210 it was Sanford, fl

        • Xena says:

          HA! Junior isn’t smart enough to know that he agreed GZ did not kill Trayvon in self-defense. Neither is he smart enough to know that by deflecting to a geographical location, he demonstrates that GZ racially profiled Trayvon.

      • Jun says:

        Okay I am disappointed in Bill Maher

        Junior is still trying to put across the dangerous incident issue when it is not, except for the victim Trayvon

        At least Junior admitted that Trayvon did not bring any dangerous situation, and Bill never stated Fogenhats would have been the loser in the fight, just that a guy would lose the fight, that is it

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Jr. doesn’t seem to comprende 92010 either. :-/

      • MelRoy says:

        I thought when I heard that, “I bet nobody in his family has self-identified as Afro-anything prior to March 2012”.

        By the way, German Jews didn’t call themselves by German names to hide their background from the Nazis. The reason is a 1787 decree by Emperor Joseph II, requiring all Jews in the Austro Hungarian Empire to give up their Jewish names and adopt German ones.

        I thought it was odd of Maher to ask RZ if he was Jewish – twice.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Maher’s mother is Jewish.

          I thought it odd that Maher did not know when Hitler swept into power, and that he could not do the math re ZimmJrs’s parents’ age.

          That Maher did not say, “Wait a minute – Hitler? Adolf the Hitler? What did Hitler have to do with this? You making all this stuff up?”

          Nor sense the strange way Jr. separated himself and his Bro from their father, racially.

          Jr.’s new whining complaint: “We’re being persecuted because we are Afro-Peruvians,

          victims of Adolph Hitler. Pity us. How could we be racially prejudiced, as Afro-Peruvians with kinship to persecuted Jews?” (“A-P/PJ”s)

          “We’re originally from Minnesota” just doesn’t sound that, umm .. dramatic.

          Or colorful.

    • ay2z says:

      Scrapes with the law, well little (or big) brother was purported to have a squeeky clean record.

      What is junior’s full name? Middle name, initial, and does he use Jr. on his official signature?

      Not encouraging a search for the wrong people on a guess-mission.

      Chances are, senior would have helped both his boys out of law scrapes, if he could.

    • when did jr classify himself as afro Peruvian, was it in the 1st like 2 minutes of the 5 minute interview? because I missed some of the worst softass interview EVER!

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Yes it was at the very begining.

      • groans says:


        LOL. Great idea. That ought to move the killer’s donors to dig deeper and deeper in their pockets for more cash to donate.

        Why, they’re just all about Afro-Peruvians over at the Treehouse, aren’t they?

        • Yes Groans didn’t you know?
          They love to mix it up!

          that’s what his um…how should I say, *stepmom* Glayds the Peruvian queen says, she insists they are NOT Indian Peruvians they are AFRO Peruvians!!

          And I think I figured out what the family doesn’t want anyone to know.
          I think papaz had his cake and ate it too. I think he was eff’in her sister and her and that’s how Robert jr, and gz were conceived. And that would be why she accidentally slipped and said she thinks of all the kids as *hers* on the Spanish TV show. LOL that’s been a rumor for awhile. but no one really wanted to bring it up because it doesn’t have anything to do with the case… but since they want to go and drag Tray and his family through the mud, I feel it’s time for THEIR TRUTH to come out!
          at least I’m not coming out with a bunch of lies about the zimmers!

    • Jun says:

      total softball


      from what I hear at least Junior let up on all the lying

    • Rachael says:

      Maybe he believes the Afro-Peruvian “shields”him from racism, using it selectvely instead of white when it benefits him, or maybe Sr is not biodad.

      • annahkonda says:

        Rachel, I know my circuits are overloaded, but I recall reading that RZ,Jr. and GZ are the adopted sons of Mama Z’s sister.

        • racerrodig says:

          The reality is that they’re still trying to figure out who the real dad is.
          The reality is they’re also trying to figure out who the real mom is.

          The reality is that from my 57 year old white male view, the Zidiots keep going down the “typical black family with no dad” crap and that Trayvon would have wound up as a chalk outline anyway and yet they don’t see the massive hypocrisy every time they open their mouths…….or type on a keyboard.

          Hmmmmmm Imagine that ??

      • Rachael says:

        I think we have a winner!!!

  44. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

  45. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I’ve never watched Live With Bill Maher, but will tonight. I hope Maher still thinks that Fogen is a fat effing liar and lets Jr. know it.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t either because I don’t have cable so I won’t tonight either 😦

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I don’t know why I watch his interviews knowing that it’s going to be the same old BS that he repeats on every show. I guess I’m just hoping that one of these hosts would grow a set and ask real questions or say what’s really on their minds. Instead they let this dork come on their show and pretend to be some important political figure. 🙄

      • Rachael says:

        Well Bill Maher is not exactly shy and he has been rather outspoken, so I’m hoping he will be the one to kick his ass. If anyone would be, I would think it would be him.

    • racerrodig says:

      Note to RZ Jr. Next time spend some $$ on an advertisement that says …………..

      “Want to see me get my ASS KICKED, tune in at XXXXX on XXX”

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Bill said, something to the effect of, “Without a gun involved, wouldn’t it just have been a guy who lost a fight?” and Jr agreed, but then went into some bs about concealed to carry yada yada yada

      • Jun says:

        So Jr. actually agreed that there was no life threatening situation involved from Trayvon?

        I am surprised

        Note that Bill Maher never stated who would have lost the fight

        • racerrodig says:

          Jr, Papa Z and FogenPhoole all fall into a trap like that. Then when cornered Jr gets all f’d up when he realizes what he just said.
          Papa, without being asked to elaborate at FogenPhooles bail hearing, said yeah, I heard Fogen scream like that when he was a teenager all the time.

          He was only asked if that was Fogens voice and a yes or no would have sufficed…………but noooooooooooooo he had to elaborate on that, and we’re damn glad of it !!

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Not in so many words, Jun.
        He said , “right” after Maher’s question, but then went into carrying concealed weapon or something. I DVR’d it…I will go check and report word for word so there won’t be any confusion, but i do think that Jr was out of his element a little due to Maher’s humor. BBS

  46. Chocolate Diva says:

    I learned something new everytime I come on this thread.

  47. Chocolate Diva says:

    I learned something new everytime I come on this blog.

  48. Trained Observer says:

    Just read the cu statement. Those two must have been like pigs in slop when money from moron donors started rolling in … and they likely thought big bucks would keep on flowing for a good long while.

    As an aside, just had to laugh at all the ATM fees they were paying. Talk about poor money management.

    • Xena says:

      @Trained Observer

      Just read the cu statement. Those two must have been like pigs in slop when money from moron donors started rolling in … and they likely thought big bucks would keep on flowing for a good long while.

      LOL!!! Yep, and O’Mara thought so too. None of them took in account how donors felt once betrayed. They didn’t send GZ that money for him to get out debt and lie about it.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Xena — Yep. Right-wing extremists coughed up money for his defense … they wanted to set a precedent that it’s perfectly OK to knock off a black kid who “looks like he’s on drugs or something.”

        The point of their generosity was to uphold long-held cherished beliefs of white supremacy. They didn’t care about Fogen on a personal basis, and they sure as shootin’ weren’t interested in his debts to AMEX or Sam’s Club, much less paying off his Peruvian mom.

        Once it became known that Fogen himself was no candidate for KKK membership, given his partially hispanic and black DNA, then all bets were off on the money flow. Clearly, this lard brain wasn’t the hero the wing-nuts wanted to pin their hopes on.

        Then along came tragedies like Sandy Hook and other causes took the limelight because we all know how important it is for every home to have an assault rifle or two next to the chewing tobacco.

        With more and more damning facts coming out in the Trayvon Martin slaying (What? You mean the kid didn’t even have a knife on him?), poor old Fogen got lost in the shuffle.

        All but the most die-hard crazies have moved on, and Fogen shouldn’t count on much more from even them.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer. You hit the proverbial nail on the head. When his money ran short, rather than O’Mara deciding it was time to file for GZ’s indigency, he went on Hannity’s program. Junior’s been on the stroll since around October. They are not making a financial windfall. But I guess that GZ just can’t come to terms that his small band of supporters is not going to increase.

      • Rachael says:

        I think there might still be a few from the last refuse at the outhouse.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. Yeah, they are probably sending post-dated checks with threatening notes such as, “If you don’t file something to beat up on Crump, I’m cancelling this check.”

          Then the check bounces anyway. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Believe it or not here is a coincidence of fact that is just staggering that 98% of every member of the Zidiot Nation has in common.
            On another site I found out that most Zidiots live in a similar style dwelling. If you ask nice I’ll tell you.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer rodig- what is a mobile home or trailer? I’ll take Zidiot dwellings for $6000, Alex.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll need a ruling from the judges….The correct answer is 40 feet long 8 foot with with 2 axles……judges ??

            Close enough we have a winner !!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Many of Fogen’s supporters have stated time and again on various blogs and on FB that they’re just fine with helping him with his living expenses.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides

          Many of Fogen’s supporters have stated time and again on various blogs and on FB that they’re just fine with helping him with his living expenses.

          They’re not doing a good job at it. O’Mara said he needs $30,000 a month in donations in order to provide a good defense and cover GZ’s living expenses. $28,000 owed to AIS and his fund was down to $5,000 until several weeks ago and O’Mara’s last report was that it’s up to $18,000. GZ is spending about $3,000 a month on security, and $3,000 a month for his extended stay hotel room. That doesn’t include food, laundry, hygiene, etc.

      • Puck says:

        @racerrodig: I’m asking nicely. I’m hoping the answer is trailer parks, lol.

        • racerrodig says:

          Let me ask the judges……. is “trailer parks” close enough……

          The full answer is “…40 feet long, 8 feet wide usually with 2 axles…”
          That’s close enough and …………we have a winner !! (confetti falling, horns blowing)

      • Puck says:

        @racerrodig Where did you find that information?

    • groans says:

      @Trained Observer: “Like pigs in slop” !!

      I cannot stop laughing! It says what we all (or most of us) were sensing but were unable to describe adequately! And the image … I still can’t even shake it yet, and probably never will!

      YOU WIN my literary award for Best Simile (?) of the Year!

      Congratulations, and thanks for the great laugh — as well as for all the inevitable future chuckles when it pops back into my mind again!

    • Pigs in slop!!
      Yep! didn’t you hear them giddy and giggling like a couple of teenagers on the jail tapes talking about what a GREAT life they’re gonna have after this is over so they shouldn’t let the *small things* worry them & what a role model gz is? and don’t forget it’s time for shellie to tell everyone to start speaking up and show them exactly how much they support them!
      yeah, pigs in slop! that’s what they are.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      They sure sounded like fools in paradise during the jailhouse calls. Peter Pan! Heaven! $$$! Fame! The good life!

      • racerrodig says:

        And how’s that “..role model..” stuff working out Fogen. Role model for who…..”Blimps ‘R Us”

        By the way…..take $37.00 and stick it………where the sun don’t shine.

  49. Trained Observer says:

    how much it cost, rather, not how it cost

  50. Trained Observer says:

    Many thanks for the backgrounder and the link. Am wondering how it cost to nail down the domain and get his begging site going?

    • Xena says:

      Since GZ used private registration, that probably cost him $35-$50 for the year. IIRC, he registered the domain through Go Daddy and they have $9.99 specials along with WYSIWYG programs.

  51. Joe Butera says:

    Dear Sir,
    I am arguing with someone on the fact that Neighborhood watch does not have stop and question authority, but they keep throwing the Constitution of Freedom of Speech in my face without any law to cite for their opinion. Please, were would I look for a law which states that I do not have the right to stop and question someone walking on my sidewalk in my neighborhood?

    Thank you!

    With respect,

    • Xena says:

      @Joe Butera

      Please, were would I look for a law which states that I do not have the right to stop and question someone walking on my sidewalk in my neighborhood?

      Joe, it’s the same First Amendment right of freedom of speech that applies to everyone. Freedom of speech works both ways. If a person thinks that freedom of speech gives them authority to question someone who they think is suspicious, that same amendment provides that the other person can tell them to f**k off; it’s none of their f’ing business what they are doing, and if they don’t like it, call the cops.

      Freedom of speech does not give Americans authority to deprive others of liberty.

      The people you are debating with are not actually debating freedom of speech. Rather, they are debating authority under the color of freedom of speech. I could write a thesis on this subject. In actually, for anyone to take authority over others beyond the scope of what is deputized to them by the government, is believing that others have no rights.

      To say it another way, the only way a person can think that freedom of speech can be used to exercise authority over the liberty of others, is to believe that person has no rights or in the alternative, their rights are unequal, and only allowed to be exercised if they submit to “sovereign citizens.”

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Before responding to your question, I have to ask, when you refer to “my” neighborhood and “my” sidewalk, is this land and infrastructure that you personally own?

      Are you interrogating trespassers? If, for example, you were a developer and had put in the

      roads, and you had not yet sold lots or houses, and the sidewalks were not dedicated yet as city streets, well, you (and your investors) could interrogate a trespasser – but to compel an answer or attempt to move the stranger, you would have to enlist help from law enforcement.

      On the other hand if you’re referrig to “the neighborhood I live in” you can cheerfully ask all you want but the stranger has no obligation to respond. He’s minding his business, he wants you to mind yours.

      If you observe the commission of a crime or what you have cause to believe is a crime, then you call the cops. The alleged “criminal” does not even have to respond to their questions, under Miranda.

      Nevertheless it is one security tactic you can use if you “have your suspicions” unless those suspicions include the possibility of him shooting or harming you in any way.

      It’s the “Hi, Neighbor!” greeting, with a friendly conversation. No guarantee he’ll talk to you (doesn’t have to), no guarantee he’ll tell you the truth; but – he’ll sure know you are keeping an eye on him.

      So — you have the right to greet anyone in your neighborhood. He has the right to ignore you.

  52. Trained Observer says:

    Ladystclaire — refresh me, please. I’ve seen passing references to Fogen’s mailing activities but don’t have a clear picture of what he’s suspected of shipping/sending/mailing by USPS or Fed Ex or whatever carrier … with what frequency… to who … or even how any such info might be known.

    Mailed an envelope yesterday and it cost $1.72. …. The Fogens seemed to be on the financial skids … did they have an addictive love for post office activity? Just askin 😉

    • Xena says:

      @Trained Observer. Ready to connect the dots? According to the credit union statements, on 4/1/12, the opening balance on GZ’s account was $370.45. He had not worked since Feb. 2012.

      On 4/6/12, GZ’s parents loaned him $3,000. This is reasoned out because it was a deposit of cash and later, he paid them that amount. That same day, he spent $135.00 with the U.S. Postal Service. Later that same day, there were two ATM cash withdrawals for a combined total of $400.00 (and $3.00 each ATM fee) and a purchase at KFC in Cambridge, MD.

      Keep in mind that GZ left his house in a rush during the wee hours of 2/27/12 and moved in with the Osterman’s. Mark Osterman stated that GZ remained in his house for 6 wks. It is reasonable to presume that GZ left the Osterman’s on 4/6/12.

      GZ did not open his begging site until that following weekend, and the first transfer of money from the Paypal account was not until 4/9/12. Something was important enough for him to use borrowed money to conduct a transaction at the U.S. Postal Service and then get the heck out of town.

      It is my suspicion that GZ was in possession of stolen jewelry that he sold on eBay; had received the money and had to ship the products. He needed to do that in order to prevent carrying the stolen property with him.

      When GZ drove into Jacksonville on 4/12, he had a laptop and flash drive with him. Although there are reported rumors that the feds found an eBay account on that laptop, that has not yet been publicly confirmed.

      Click to access bank-records.pdf

      • Dave says:

        There are other possibilities:

        a. a money order
        b. a whole lot of stamps.
        c. customs duty on a parcel to himself.
        d. passport application (for Shellie?)
        e. etc.

        • Xena says:

          @Dave Re: Other possibilities.

          Now, a passport for ShelLIE sounds reasonable. 🙂

          A money order? Doubt it. His parents could have written out a check to pay a bill for him. My guess is 13 overnight deliveries.

      • Dave says:

        The fees for a first-time passport application are a total of…..$135.00!

        • Xena says:


          The fees for a first-time passport application are a total of…..$135.00!

          Are you serious?!?!?!!!! So that MF and his wife were planning on disappearing rather than facing justice.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Shellie already had a passport. They speak about that in the jailhouse calls.

        One of my family members had their passport stolen last May and had to replace it. I believe it was more like $145, not $135.

      • Rachael says:


        • Xena says:

          Dave, thanks for the link. You certainly have me thinking now. I wonder if it was ShelLIE who went to the post office and got a passport while GZ hit the road. If she already had one, I wonder if GZ applied for a first time passport using another name and ID.

          Well, maybe the feds know.

      • Rachael says:

        Where do they speak about She’lLie’s passport? I only recall GZ saying he thought his passport was in some bag and she told him not to worry, she had one in a safe deposit box for him and he told her to hold onto it.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. I don’t remember ShelLIE saying anything about having a passport for herself. I’ll have to go back through discovery for the copy of the application GZ filed for a replacement passport.

      • Rachael says:

        Here is how I remember it. In 2004, GZ can’t find his passport so he reports it stolen, and gets another one. He finds it, so he has two passports. One of the passports expires in May of this year, and the other expires in 2014.

        At his bond hearing, he is ordered to turn in his passport, so he gives the one that expires in May of this year.

        Then while he is in jail he says he thinks his passport is in a bag and She’lLie says she has one in the safe deposit box and he tells her to hold onto that.

        But I don’t remember anything about having her own passport.

        It is almost like he had 2 on purpose just in case something ever happened. An Omen.

      • groans says:

        @Dave: OMG!! WOW!! That was amazing brainstorming you did right before our eyes.

        The Post Office payment of $135 = cost of a first-time passport?! Coincidence? Or something else?

        If it is “something else” but has not been raised in any of the killer’s bond and conditions hearings, is prosecution unaware of it? Or … maybe the “something else” really is just a whole bunch of Forever stamps? Or … perhaps there’s someone else who is more “of interest” with respect to the “something else”?

        Hmmm……. It certainly offers new food for thought – including whether it might be affecting the wife’s trial schedule and/or attendance at the killer’s court appearances.


      • groans says:

        @Xena – My apologies for not mentioning you! You and Dave were brainstorming together. (And I just basically said in 200 words what you said in a couple dozen.)

        I can’t help but wonder now if there’s some negotiating with the missus going on.

        • Xena says:

          @groans. I so appreciate the brainstorming. So many times I’ve shared on this blog about the $135 transaction at the post office, and not feeling good today (getting over a cold), I started not to post about it in answer to a question. Glad I did.

          (Palm hit) What Dave pointed out caused me to look at the credit union’s statement again. The $135.00 post office transaction is on pg 24 under ShelLIE’s account. This puts to rest my suspicion that GZ used the money to ship out stolen property he sold on eBay.

          More dots. On April 6, 2012, GZ’s attorney in the civil case against Aames filed a document in the case in federal court reporting that in July 2011, the Aames bankruptcy trustee submitted $18,000 to GZ. GZ did not pay any costs or fees from the money as agreed. Neither had GZ told his attorney about the money. Attny Pantas found out through the Aames’ bankruptcy trustee.

          So, on April 6, 2012, the ca-ca hit the fan for GZ. That whole New Black Panther Party being outside of Osterman’s house was a story I didn’t buy. GZ had not met Serino in late March at FDLE like he said he would. Chances are that Osterman told GZ he would not harbor him once he was charged and GZ had reason to believe that the investigation resulted in evidence to charge him. GZ had to hit the road and even more, he evidently planned to leave the country.

          The problem for GZ and ShelLIE is that they didn’t have money to leave the country. That Friday, ShelLIE gets a passport and GZ launches his begging website that weekend. He stops communicating with his attorneys who hold a press conference announcing their withdrawal. By that Monday, April 9th, he had only received $5,880.00 in donations. Not enough to flee the country.

          By April 11, 2012, no further donations had come through Paypal. GZ then starts calling Corey’s office and Sean Hannity. On April 12th, GZ drives back to Florida and visits with Jose Baez. From there, he drives into Jacksonville thinking he is going to meet with Corey but he is taken into custody and transported back to Sanford.

          Then the money begins rolling in.

          And that fool cannot see that it was his arrest that caused people to donate money to him for his legal defense and bond, rather than giving him money for his living expenses?

      • groans says:

        Ugh. Now that we’ve written these comments, I fear we’ll soon be seeing a new Motion for Subpoena Duces Tecum for the Postal Service and for the State Department! Because we know the defense team spends its precious, insufficient time reading this blog (probably including all thousand entries on this page alone)! 🙄

        But I’ve started a COUNTDOWN. The defense now has only 39 DAYS until its final witness list (including experts) is due! So they really SHOULD be prioritizing big time now, and getting their six “critical” experts on board!

        Tick-tock, tick-tock…!
        39 days until witness list is due!

        • Xena says:


          Ugh. Now that we’ve written these comments, I fear we’ll soon be seeing a new Motion for Subpoena Duces Tecum for the Postal Service and for the State Department!

          LOL!! That would be under federal jurisdiction, which is probably why O’Mara wants the FBI to turn over information. However, that post office transaction is more than likely in ShelLIE’s case file with the FBI and not GZ’s.

          Behind closed doors, there is probably some talking and negotiating going on in ShelLIE’s case. She knows the what and why of that transaction.

      • groans says:

        No worries, though. Surely John Kerry will make the subpoena a TOP PRIORITY at State. ❗

      • Jun says:

        Shellie lied during court sanctions for a murder case

        I believe it makes it aggravated

        and the evidence is really plain

        she would be better off just admitting she did it, and just do the 3 or so months and get let out

        Because if she presses it, she will get the max, which I think is 5 years but I do not know how they will look at it, considering it was during a murder case court sanction

        She was also telling lies about the defendant’s violent history

      • PiranhaMom says:

        What is the cost of a year’s rental on the largest P.O. Box there?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        You guys are good. sleuths. PM is right though, could be a PO box payment, since the lovely couple were on the move. On the other hand, they didn’t seem to expect to hang around Sanford, did they?

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides

          PM is right though, could be a PO box payment, since the lovely couple were on the move. On the other hand, they didn’t seem to expect to hang around Sanford, did they?

          GZ and ShelLIE left the townhouse like bats out of hell in the wee morning of 2/27/12. Why wait until 4/6/12 to rent a PO Box when they were living on borrowed money? I am more inclined to go along with Dave that post office transaction was for a passport for ShelLIE. It was the same day that GZ apparently flew Osterman’s and was commuting in Maryland.

      • ok I just listened to that audio jail tape about 2 weeks ago (it’s I think the 1st one I have posted on my page) where him and shellie talk about the passport.
        what I remember, and i’ll go back and confirm, is that shellie had her own passport, and gz told her to hold on to hers – she makes a point that it’s HER passport, but she also makes it clear that she has his too.and he does tell her to hold on to them! she says his IS in a safety deposit box at a bank.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        My memory sucks and I hate scrolling through all the evidence again. You could be right about a new passport app for Shellie, although she and Fogen had been married five years. Why would he have a passport and not her? Of course that could happen. But his old one that he thought lost was due to expire in 2012, if I’m not mistaken, and I’m not sure when the newer one had been applied for (the one he ultimately mailed to OM) but I think it was applied for during their marriage.

        Surely the prosecution is on top of this issue.

  53. annahkonda says:

    Yeah, lady, I am inclined to agree with you. There was something very sinister and evil going on at The Retreat. My gut never fools me.

    • Rachael says:

      I agree. I don’t know what though and while I am not given to conspiracy theories, there is something just not right that was going on there.

  54. annahkonda says:

    Does any one know? Have Taaffe, Osterman and witness#6 lawyered up?

  55. ladystclaire says:

    After looking at all of these great videos by LLMPAPA and reading the comments here and at other sites, Fogen should have been slapped with a murder one charge and the dp should definitely be on the table. this tub of lard does not deserve to live after what he did to this child. who ever was with him that night deserves the same fate as well and, by the looks of it, he definitely had some help that night.

    Whose door was he knocking on and why? there is no way that he should be found anything other than guilty as charged. he and his family are all dumb enough to believe that the common sense people in this country have figured out what transpired that night and, that this is not a self defense case at all. is’s shameful on their part that they have joined in the trashing of their son’s/brother’s victim and his family. their evil spawn caused all of this and, IMO they all owe this victim and his family an apology but, they will never do it because, they have no morals. Trayvon will have his justice either at the state level and if not there, at the federal level where he stands a chance of being put to death. I’ll take the federal level for a thousand Alex.

  56. Bill Taylor says:

    outstanding work llmpapa,,,,,every time i hear that song though i cant get the picture of a gorilla playing the drums out of my mind.

  57. annahkonda says:

    I truly believe that when Fogen goes down, he is taking someone with him. You know how misery loves company. I can hardly wait until the fat lady sings.

    • ladystclaire says:

      And I think we all know who that someone is. I’ll take Osterman for a thousand Alex and maybe Taaffe as well. BTW, I wouldn’t hesitate to also say that good ole boy Jon was in on this murder as well. the home invasions were just a cover for other illegal goings on that these people mentioned here, had going on in their very own neighborhood. what was in the boxes being mailed off by Fogen? I’m telling you guys, they were stealing from their neighbors and, selling the stolen goods in another state.

      Maybe Fogen’s sister or one of his thuggish friends from VA. was on the receiving end of those packages which he was mailing.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Sondra? Shellie?

    • cielo62 says:

      annahkonda~ you mean Shellie? As long as she tells them the truth, I don’t care if she can’t carry a tune in a bucket! Let that fat lady sing!


  58. Trained Observer says:

    From the illustrations to the music to those priceless frames of Killer Fogen lying his ass off, you captured it, yet again, LLMPapa.

    • Trained Observer says:

      should have said fat and getting fatter ass 🙂 Have just sent link to assorted people captivated by this case and getting Justice for Trayvon.

  59. Malisha says:

    Wow! LLMPapa, you have a real talent for visualizing things and then revealing the necessary physical parameters that evidence them! Magnificent!

  60. kllypyn says:

    He had him by his shirts

    • jm says:

      Great video as always. I can only pray MOM and Zimmerman KKKlan have enjoyed them as much as I do.

      • racerrodig says:

        Rumor has it that FogenPhoole is on his 12th computer. They usually don’t survive an “Anger Toss for Distance”

        Enjoying them we are…..FogenPhoole……ehhhh, not so much.

      • pat deadder says:

        Can’t the defense say it got on there when fogen turned him over.I will be so glad when this is over And he is convicted.Hope against hope the prosecution has a clear tape of the 911 calls.In this day and age surley experts are able to get fogen’s threats to Trayvon.If these are available would they have to be released to the public or the defense.

      • Erica says:

        Yeah Im thinking the defense will say it got there while he was straddling Trayvon but the sweatshirt/bullethole analysis is interesting. That Knox guy didn’t think to compare that. LLMPAPA would be a great investigator!

    • Xena says:

      Get him, LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get George Zimmerman.

    • Dave says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Outstanding, LLPapa!

    • Nefertari05 says:

      I’ve seen many powerful videos supporting Justice for Trayvon, But, LLMPapa… this one is beyond words!

    • xy11xy says:

      I was wondering about the undershirt at one point, and went looking. There is a narrow band of the hem of the undershirt exposed when Trayvon bends forward slightly to dig his hands into his pocket for change. You can see it in the view from behind in this video:

      It doesn’t interfere with your theory, because I think you’re saying George was tugging at the shirt when he fired the shot.

      I can’t see if the under-shirt was similarly exposed at the front, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t be.

      Trayvon would only have to move around a little and throw his arms up for that hoodie to hike up and expose even more of the under-shirt.

      • ay2z says:

        Or, maybe Trayvon did not move but was rolled over to end up face down, hands underneath.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        Or maybe it fell from GZ face when he was on top or standing over
        Trayvon who would be on his back because this stain is on the front
        of the under-shirt and because blood cannot drip upwards.
        Even if he had (GZ) a bloody whatever shooting someone in the heart at close range is MURDER.

      • Jun says:

        Perhaps that is where Fogenhats grabbed the victim by the shirt

        Fogenhats was the only party “redhanded” with blood on his hands

        If there is a print on it, then it is likely Fogenhats’

      • Erica says:

        the stain was the SIZE of a thumbprint, not a was probably the blood that was dripping from his mustache. we also have to remember the can of tea in his hoodie pocket. The defense could say the tea can weight made the shirt hang, thus pulling his shirt down.

      • bettykath says:

        Looks to me like the undershirt is 1 1/2-2 inches longer than the hoodie all the way around.

    • Jun says:

      this video destroys that “expert”

      there’s no way gravity can be explained away for all those forensic readings, especially the combination of the trajectory, the needing to line up the bullet holes to the wound by pulling the hoodie and undershirt down and to the left, and the pulling forward of the shirt away from the body for the contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt only, but intermediate range gunshot wound

      I noticed that most people who try to support Fogenhats with expert testimony never make any logical sense

    • Rachael says:

      I really really really hope these videos you make LLMPapa are seen by more than just us. I really hope someone is taking a very good look at them.

      Thank you so much. I swear, I love you!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yep. Fogen’s quite the handy guy, ain’t he?

    • operacarla says:

      Bravo LLMPapa!

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Another terrfic video, LLM! Cannot yet tell if that single GZ blood/DNA is a falling drop, or a smear, but I believe it came from Zimmerman’s lip/under-the-nose area, that got smacked by the Kel-Tek seconds earlier.

      Either Zimmerman wiped his hand across his sticky nose/mouth, or the blood dripped – but it got on the waistband of the INNER sweatshirt when Zimmerman frisked Trayvon, hoping to find that Trayvon was armed.

      He was, at that instant, trying to put together his alibi for the shooting. So much easier to claim innocence if he could say Trayvon menaced him with a gun -so George had to “fast draw” to save his own life.

      In the NEN call GZ was already trying to con Sean, the 311 dispatcher,into thinking TM was armed (“He’s got his hand in his waistband.) It was on his mind.

      No luck for GZ on the front of Trayvon – but in that process the tell-tale blood evidence adhered to the fabric.

      Next Zimmerman flips Trayvon over, frisks Trayvon for a holster worn a la George on the backside – no gun there, either – then checks the back of the hoodie by running his hands over Trayvon’s back, checking to see if there’s an exit wound or if, as Zimmerman hopes, the shattered hollow-point bullet stayed inside of Trayvon’s heart instead of passing straight through into the earth under Trayvon’s back.

      It would have been tough to explain that, because a bullet that passed through TM’s body into the ground would prove GZ was mounted on the immobilized teen when he shot Trayvon.

      But his “luck” held and there was no exit wound or break in the fabric on the back of of the hoodie.

      These searching movements on Trayvon’s back were witnessed by Selma and roommate.

      Others have posited that Zimmerman was squeezing the remaining life out of Trayvon at that time, but I have not. There would be no doubt to Zimmerman that he had inflicted a mortal wound to the unarmed teen.

      As witnesses watched him rise from Trayvon’s body, they saw Zimmerman wander off, cluching his brow in the classic reaction of “Shit! What am I gonna do now???” then circle back to the body.

      He had found his solution.

      He would lie.

      • xy11xy says:

        Others have posited that Zimmerman was squeezing the remaining life out of Trayvon at that time, but I have not. There would be no doubt to Zimmerman that he had inflicted a mortal wound to the unarmed teen.

        I think that’s what George was doing too. Trayvon was probably gasping for air, and possibly making reflexive movements as he died. If George wanted to make sure the boy wasn’t kept alive by medics, or didn’t manage to say anything to the cops who were seconds away, he would press Tray’s face into the ground to make him die quicker.

        It’s horrifying to think of…but hearing George say it was God’s will that Trayvon die, and that he wouldn’t “judge” it….shows us that he is depraved enough to press a dying child’s face into the ground.

      • MelRoy says:

        The first cop arrived on the scene very quickly, and Zimmerman could see the flashlight. Remember the 911 calls where the witness is saying she sees another man with a flashlight.

        Although frisking somebody you just shot in the heart is a bit weird. Surely if TM was armed and was the aggressor, he would have used his own weapon instead of – as GZ claims – fighting over GZ’s cc. I do think he was on top of him for a different reason, although he may not have been on top all the time. So why would he be on top when TM was vulnerable?

        Conquest. “Gotcha”. Then when Mary and Selma shouted “What are you doing?”, he realized somebody saw him and how it would look. (He made up the frisking story for cover).

        • PiranhaMom says:


          GZ never said “I’m frisking him for possible weapons.”

          The motions he went through after the shot (and were observed) indicated a frisking motion front

          and rear waistband – holster areas. There was no gun or holster on TM. The motions included GZ moving his hands over Trayvon’s back. From all that, a number of us surmised he was frisking TM, hoping to find a weapon (he had no knowledge one way or the other if TM were armed) and I brought out the theory that the upper back outer-gament search would be to make certain the bullet didn’t pass on through, which would blow any argument against self-defense if Trayvon were shot dead-on, lying on the ground.

          The theory of the GZ DNA/blood evidence on the LOWER part of the INNER sweatshirt lends credence to the “frisk in the waistband for a gun” theory because GZ had wet blood at the time, and that spot is his.

          What GZ SAID, is his claim that he didn’t know if he killed TM, and that he spread TM’s arms out to prevent him from attacking him again!!!

          TM’s body was found face-down with his arms under him, which is consistent with GZ rolling the body over after shooting him and examining the front waistband first, then rolling, then checking out the back.

          The position Sanford PD found the body in does not match GZ’s statements about what he did with the arms. John W-6’s second interview describes Trayvon with one arm stretched out in front “like he was swimming” and sketched it out.

          We look to the prosecution for its presentation on this in court.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @LLMPapa. I love all of your videos, but for some reason this one made me cry. I just can’t stop crying.

    • My favorite of your videos, I hope he can’t get it out of his head. Fogen, that is!

  61. colin black says:

    lurker says:

    February 15, 2013 at 10:32 am

    I believe that the Judge suggested that she wanted them all there in the first three days. I’ve never been on a jury, but is there perhaps some initial pre-screening that goes on (perhaps paper and pencil)? Sort of a cattle call approach to eliminate the first 200-300 or so?
    Bingo they call 500 potential jurours some use voteing registars iirc Florida use D V L records ie drivers licances.
    Over first thre days they expect lose say a 3rd by attrition.
    Maybe 153 due to health issues or family berivemant or your a single care give for an elderly relitive or you know some one involve in the trial.
    Many jurors are nixed withind first few days.

    That leaves 354 or there abouts to voire dire an as much time as is deemed nessesery should be taken by both sides to oick an impartial jurours an alternates whom are every bit as important if not more so.
    They are the substitutes that can come off the bench an save the day.

    For foggen foghorn forgot for real where Id forrgotten I was supposed to go Target shopping
    An when target shooting at Trayvo type dudes you know assholes that always get away.
    Intersting choice of Trayvons anatomy to fixate on.
    Coon or Punk did you want to make him your punk or personal boy.

    You were afull quick to flipp himover an mount his backside /buttocks
    An feel him up /pat him down .
    Searching for a weapon or copping a feel of his only weapon that night.

    You of course had two
    Your shrimp dick between your legs
    An your phalic dick with the long muzzle you also kept in your pants.
    An unlike your real sex pistol .
    Your sudstitute dick didnt fire blanks.
    It fired live rounds that ended life
    U8nlike the blanks you fired from your cock that also fired non life.
    A Real sex pistol fire live ammo that shoots life into a womans uterus an frtilises an egg .
    An a human is born.

    You shot an a human was ended.
    Anyway a jury of 6 an possably 6 alternate an just to be extra safe an extra six alternates should be gathered.

    To sit in judjment of foggen 6 6 6 will suffice for me an also give this ? a heads up as to where he is destined to end up.

  62. Malisha says:

    I predict PTSD, see above for criteria O’Mara will list in his motion.

    (Hey paralegal in O’Mara’s firm: Tell your boss Malisha said, “NA NA NA NA NAAAAAA NAAAAAAA.”)

  63. colin black says:


    Who wrote that off course the building cant accomodate 500 plus jurours.
    The voir dire process takes days weeks months even.
    Do they think half a thousand potential jourours are going to roll up same time same date on the orders of Judge Nelson.

    I esstimate they will bring in up to 20 25 per?
    Per however fast they can question them an get a yae or nae.
    Hope it takes longer an more care taken than picking the Pinnellis pinheads for trunkmoms fiasco of a F U to the court verdict.
    After all them delisious sweet trolleys with blackforrest gattue an neapolitan ice cream.
    J Perry kept mollycodling them with what ever crap they wanted.

    They took longer ordering coffees latees expressio ect an nibbles to take into the jury room to deliberate .
    The disscussion of the logistics of beverages an snack eqaulled the amount of time they spent in deliberations.

    Not supriseing realy when you decide theres no need to ask to veiw any evidence or reveiw any vt or anything to do with the evidence.
    Just took an intitial vote ten for not guilty on the serious murder ect.
    An two for guilty on all charges.
    Rest time took the ten brow beating the two to come on board.

    • lurker says:

      I believe that the Judge suggested that she wanted them all there in the first three days. I’ve never been on a jury, but is there perhaps some initial pre-screening that goes on (perhaps paper and pencil)? Sort of a cattle call approach to eliminate the first 200-300 or so?

      • Dave says:

        If the prospective jurors won’t all fit inside they can put the overflow outside on the lawn. It will be June.

      • racerrodig says:

        In short…Yes. Usually videos on how the process works and questionnaires to filter the unwanted out.

      • bettykath says:

        Usually, all jurors are requested to show up at the same time. I think the judge’s point was to spread the 500 over three days as the exception.

      • bettykath says:

        The first thing the judge asks for are those who cannot serve, e.g. just spent a non-refundable fortune for European vacation, my hangnail will get infected if I serve, etc. 1/3 or more will be excused based on legitimate reasons having to do with their personal life. If enough are excused, all who are left will be told to come back day 4. Otherwise, two days might be used for the next step. Alternatively, after the personal excuses are taken care of, some other means of winnowing those left will be used. Maybe the questionnaire with a key question or two that will result in a “don’t come back” call.

    • Xena says:

      @Colin Black. Chances are that the jurors will report at various hours and first complete a questionnaire. From that questionnaire, some will be released and other will go into the courtroom for voir dire. They are estimating a two week process to seat 6 jurors.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Agreed, and you can bit the Foganfools will try to taint the pool. In fact, some people who show up to mingle may not even have been called for service. Smart prospects will say nothing to anyone one way or another about the case. In fact, smart prospects will bring a book and say nothing, period.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer

          Agreed, and you can bit the Foganfools will try to taint the pool.

          When O’Mara put in his motion for a continuance about taking time to go through internet blogs and such, he told Judge Nelson that the longer this case continues, the more potential there is for tainting the jury pool.

          From GZ’s selling of autographs, to Junior’s diatribes in the media, and blogs such as the treeslum, they are the reasons why the court will not grant continuances.

      • Dave says:

        This will be a long, grueling trial and jurors will risk coming under alot of outside pressure and probably threats as well. Any prospective juror who doesn’t try to get out of serving should probably be eliminated!

        • Xena says:


          Any prospective juror who doesn’t try to get out of serving should probably be eliminated!

          IMO, any prospective juror should have their phone tapped and their internet usage tracked.

      • Jun says:

        I think the jurors, like witnesses, are protected from intimidation and any purposeful tainting is liable as an offense I believe

        Court rules are made so that what happened can be scrutinized to the actual truth of the matter in a fair and impartial view

        Being a juror requires a swear of oath to duty because the victim deserves a fair hearing on what happened because all we have heard is the defendant’s lies and his brother as well telling lies, with no defense at all for the victim

        In court, all of their lies will come under scrutiny otherwise, the defendant and his lying con man brother can not submit it as evidence at a trial

        Even through all the efforts of Junior

        It is going to be proven that only the defendant was redhanded

        The victim, the kid, had absolutely no foreign dna whatsoever on his hands, cuffs, sleeves while the defendant’s hands were bloody from the killing and attack of the victim and my guess is staging his own injuries as he is the only one that is red handed

        Even before technological advances in sciences and studies, the most basic is “being caught redhanded” as the defendant was caught red handed, blood all over his hands, and the kid did not have red hands, as he did nothing

        Simple math

        There’s not gonna be any experts going to risk prison to tell lies because they can not explain away the trajectory, and the forensics and ballistics of the gun shot, the screams, the witnesses, the chase

        Witness 6 will stick to his story because he knows that he can go to prison for perjury during a murder trial and the defense against that is to recant a statement or like he did, he pretended he did not know what he saw and heard, or there may be something more juicy like the defendant threatened him… the forensics prove he is a liar, unless he is honestly mistaken

        The kid deserves a trial and I believe the jurors will do right by the kid

        even though I would love to whoop Fogenhats’ ass, I only wish the truth to come out, and he gets punished in a humane way, which is prison, and some psychological help, because he has been abusing people since a child, there is something wrong with him


        I also hope Junior sees the light too

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Unlike years ago, where people had to be at a specific location to get a call, today people can be reached anywhere they happen to be. So, there’s no reason to mass clog a courtroom or waiting room with jurors. The clerk has software to help him manage the list. He’ll simply call down the list until he gets enough potential jurors to respond that they can make it in a specified period of time, then mark them off the list as they arrive.

      Say he calls 20 for 9am, at 9:30 am he’s halfway through them so he calls up the next 20 and keeps going until perhaps 3pm. So they never have more than 30 or 40 jurors on hand waiting. Each time one leaves they call up another to come in. Instead of having to call all 500 to come and wait around all day.

  64. colin black says:

    Your post above wasnt a rant but a sesible collection of facts.

    The United States consttution is set up as giveing what in other countrys like the U K we call countys.
    Or some countrys have distects regions ect.
    Ameria alone calls its countys districts STATES.
    Statehood is Nation hood an in essence America was set up as a confederation of Nations.
    An although the world today veiws it as one country.

    Americans thems selfs are sometimes fanatical about there statehood being soverign an different an blah blah blah.
    Thats not the way we do it in Texas or Indiana or where ever.
    Im amaed when you see cop car chases where all they fleeing vechicle has to do is drive across a state line an the case ends.

    Ive seen shows like C O P S where the LE have basicly told some drunk or misscreant to go across the brige to diffren state or county an a dont give a rats ass what you do over there .
    Not my duristriction.
    Say what?

    How the hell can you expect to plolice a country as vast an with the potential for violence the States has.
    With a multitude of police forces whom seem to be jobs worths an there motto should be Im alright jack screw you aas far as the colleges in neighbouring durastrictions is concerned.

    As Mr T would say Im not getting no damm plane. oops

    No wrong one

    As Mr T would say.
    I Pity the foools who thought up that system.

    • aussie says:

      I had a friend in LA. Lived near a major intersection where he said it was fun to watch the aftermath of smashes…. city police, country sheriff and State trooper arguing and MEASURING where the wrecks were to work out who has jurisdiction. Bad luck if some of the wrecks had spun into the other’s territory.

      This system made great sense, Colin, back when small bands of people were opening up huge areas of land, maybe 1000 miles from the next group, the land not a country, not even a state, just land (for the taking from the natives). They had to elect one of themselves to be mayor and one to be sheriff, sure. and they made up the laws as they went along, none having had education in it (or maybe in anything).

      Maybe by the time it got closely populated enough, the glory and perks of these positions were too entrenched, nobody wanted to give them up. Maybe they just never noticed there might be a better way. Maybe they never noticed 18th, 19th, 20th century creep up and go past….

  65. colin black says:

    After Dorner was fired, he didn’t really have anything to lose at that point.


    Yes he did he had his life to live an his name not to clear.
    As he stated in good concience he was the honest cop whom informed on a Female officer.
    Nicknamed chupacabra a legendry Mexican kind of Tasmanian whirlwind devil that attacks mersilessly.
    She was proud of her nickname bestowed on her as she always drew blood.

    She admitted her crime of kicking a cuffed restrained mentaly Ill man.
    The victim also confirmed alongside his Mother whom saw the bruises an bust lip.
    She kicked him in the head an body whilst restrained.
    He also had to put up with instituinalised raaceism something wich was rampant in the Greater London Police also.
    An constantly hear profanitys expounded towards all sorts of ethnicitys.
    Go along to get along shouldnt include watching a fellow officer commit a criminal assault an then say nada.
    You are makeing them complicit in a crime.

    He had excellent skill sets from the Millatary an a clean record.
    He had beeen fore warned not once but by sevral differnt people that L A P D was rotten to the core an not the place for him.

    He had everything to lose i m o an when he saw the corruption an as an intellegent man.
    Must have realised rocking the boat only had one outcome.
    Him going overboard with stus quo retained.

    So after his last call up to the Service he could have an should have resisned his badge at L A P D.
    Signed on for extended tours in Milatary.
    An perhaps explored ploce work via milatry angle m p
    Or as a civilian officer working with N C S I

    Or upon compleation of his tours he could have applied to another L E Durastriction anywhere in the vast country of opertunity he lived in.

    With his background record traing am sure there would be lots of little countys fighting to retain his servises as a small town sherrif.
    Where his inate goodness an decency could have flourished.
    He had everything to live an go for.
    An yet like a latter day Don Quiotie chose to fight an charge giant unmovable windmills that were able to generate enough force to crush him an anyone in there way like an gnat.

    I feel sorry for the victims an sorry that an obvoiously ill mentaly imbalanced fellow human didnt get the support an help he so obviously needed….

    He a genuine American Hero fought for his country got short changed an shafted by his own department to cover up raceism an indemic violence wrongdoing.
    An yet a ero like foggen get all stops pulled out an L E concortioists by bending over backward to let him get a pat on the back

    An not even a slap on the wrist for shooting an unarmed child.
    Called it sods law to bad to sad but you werent to know where you.
    Oh by they way for future refrance make sure there wearing black sneakers an dark pants before you shoot as thats the bad guy genral attire…

    As they say only in Merica………….

    • “Only in Merica”? For you my friend


    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yup. Only in Merica.

    • Dennis says:

      I feel horrible for the two innocent people who were shot by the corrupt LAPD that can’t even identify a vehicle that is how sad they are. That is the Fogen mentality…shoot first and ask questions later.

      • aussie says:

        Sorry, Dennis, you have that wrong.

        Shoot first and make excuses later.

        Woman in Florida got 20 years for discharging a firearm, trying to scare off the abusive ex husband. These guys attack 2 women from behind, at least 40 bullets, and don’t even have to say sorry, never mind get charged or lose jobs or something.

    • aussie says:

      YIKES I am in deep doggy dooo then, Colin. I own and wear nothing but black clothing, don’t ask me why, been this way for many years. I’d better not go visit Land of the Free.

      They said he made it up, because he didn’t report her right away. He spent 2 weeks wrestling with his conscience, can he stay, can he say, can he make a difference. Decided he can’t stay and look the other way.

      Not hard to find two low-wage fast-food employees to say they saw nothing. Of course they didn’t or they’re next. Maybe not even employees, were their employment records checked? who would they complain to, the same people making the threats? or has it got to where they don’t even have to make them anymore?

      Did you notice how they tried to make out he was weak and useless all the time he was there? at least 3 “sources” mentioned him crying about things. Oh his training wasn’t up to scratch anyway. Not one person came forward with anything good to say about him. Were they prevented? were they just afraid? were the media just not interested? Instant and complete demonisation. “Terrorist” even.. who tells a guy, just take your dog and walk away……

      Easy for me to be brave from the other end of the world, but I want to see physical evidence that he did any of the shootings. Unedited surveillance tapes, forensics done OUTSIDE of CA labs, bullets matched to guns, yes they CAN recover filed-off serial numbers off guns……..autopsy report also not done in CA labs…….

      And if someone does shoot himself, to avoid the pain of burning alive, that is still murder.

      • bettykath says:

        No argument from me. You’re absolutely right.

        from an affidavit intended to show sufficient probable cause for a criminal complaint and arrest warrant, filed 2/7/13, for Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution:

        His personal belongings including wallet and ids were found near the US/Mexico border at the San Ysidro Point of Entry.

        The same affidavit speaks of an associate of Dorner, J.Y., aiding him. J.Y.’s family has a residential property in Arrow Bear, near where Dorner’s truck was found burning. J.Y. was spotted in Costa Mesa CA.

        Chris Gettner’s testimony (was he kicked?)

      • bettykath says:

        I have a comment in moderation but don’t know why. No naughty words and only two links.

      • I agree too & it pisses me off!

    • @Colin, yep, I agree with everything.

  66. Rachael says:

    How this might work with the immunity trial.

    • Jun says:

      With so much opportunity, and already a full year will have passed when Omara took it on, yet they want to delay it

      • elcymoo says:

        I can understand taking a year or so to prepare for trial if a defendant is charged with a killing he denies committing, but I don’t see where his defense team has made an honest effort to prepare so far. There’s only so much that can be ‘investigated’ after he’s admitted that he was the shooter.

        What really boggles my mind is the time it’s taken to hear Shellie’s perjury case, given the recorded phone calls and the video of what she said during that bond hearing.

  67. Rachael says:

    How this might work.

  68. aussie says:

    This look familiar to anyone?

    “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[1]”

    Nor be deprived of life………..without due process………….

    Charges were already filed against him.

    SearchingMind, are you saying there’s a kind of special SYG for cops only? if a deaf man reaches for a card that says he’s deaf, they can fear for their lives and shoot him? they have someone outnumbered about 300:1, THEY can fear for their lives? and he can’t? After they shot up 2 women in a totally different vehicle he’s to believe they’d let him walk out in one piece?

    If “self-defence” over-rides the 5th Amendment, why have courts at all? if the cops go in with enough guns, everyone will arm himself in his own self-defence (see 2nd Amendment) and the cops have the excuse to short-cut the whole “justice” system.

    The “Manifesto” contains too much dirt to have been written by someone else. But there were 2 people dead and it was a mystery for 2 days, then the Manifesto was found and the manhunt started. Where is the physical evidence? Interesting, why were they looking on Facebook instead of the condo surveillance tapes?

    I don’t believe he shot anyone until they started shooting at him, up on the mountain. Not on evidence presented so far.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Good analysis, Aussie.

      When trying to apprehend a person who poses mortal danger to civilians/ the public, cops, paratroopers, soldiers, etc. are not allowed to retreat. They must Stand Their Ground until the suspect is arrested. That is the primary duty of The State: protection of the individual and the public at large. In the exercise of such and other duties, they may, if necessary, apply PROPORTIONATE force to protect themselves from serious injuries and/or death. This is all I am saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

      Viewed from another angle, The Theory of State’s Monopoly of Power, dictates that any State that cannot maintain law and order- and retreats when threatened by non-State actors within its own boundaries, is a failed State or is heading towards becoming a failed State. As such, agents of the State may only retreat from a confrontation in the interest of protecting either innocent lives or their own lives – but not the life of an armed suspect who has declared war on The State, Institutions of the State and/or private individuals.

      I have not opinion with regard to the Dorner-case because of lack of (enough) reliable info. Dorner may have been executed as some have suggested (and that would not only be unconstitutional but also a serious crime). The cops may also have exercised their right to self-defense and killed Dorner in the process (and that would make the killing constitutional and lawful). I do not know which alternative is the case in the Dorner-case.

      • Dave says:

        They may also have killed somebody other than Dorner. their record on suspect identification in this case has been less than stellar.

      • aussie says:

        They could have just shot him. Tossing in “burner” after “burner” saying “burn the m-f” doesn’t sound like self-defence to me. And saying this on publicly monitored radios and THEN expecting everyone to believe they didn’t meant to set the fire?

        “Proportional force”??? outnumber someone 300:1 and the set him alight?

        The arrogance is astounding. And backed up by “see what happens if you go against us”.

        I wonder if they’ll review his case now, that was “not for him but to allay the concerns of the public”??

        The vehicle they thought might be his (and obviously wasn’t and had two small women in it) they pumped more than 40 bullets into, without warning, from the rear — self-defence? or attempted murder??? and all we get is “oh poor dears they’re so nervous” instead of COURT MARTIAL.

        What does The Theory of State’s Monopoly of Power say about them starting confrontations? How many handcuffed or running-away people have cops “defended themselves” against in the past year?

        The State indeed cannot maintain law and order, if it cannot control its enforcement agencies. Whether Dorner killed those people or not, this kind of action is exactly what is driving the 2nd Amendment so-called “gun nuts” into feeling the need to protect themselves FROM THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

        I wonder if California will find the cojones to have a proper open inquiry about this. Sadly, people would probably feel afraid to join any protest march demanding it.

        • cielo62 says:

          aussie~ I’m not usually a conspiracy theorists, but…. MAN did the LAPD lay a huge egg on this one! Theories and backlash will last for years!


      • Dennis says:


        I know exactly what you are saying. I saw the pictures of their truck that was covered in bullet holes. They put two bullets into a human being back and then just offer them a new truck. That is just beyond sick. Not only should the officers involved in that shooting be sued into the ground, but they should also be fired and never work in law enforcement ever again.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        As far as I know, the two women are still suing Torrance PD. Who would ever emotioinally get over being attacked that way?

  69. Dennis says:

    This case seems just like the Jodi Arias trial. In that trial, the disgusting defense team is demonizing the victim when it is completely obvious that monster murdered the victim in cold blood.

    • Dennis says:

      Does any logical person on this planet believe that stabbing a naked person in the shower multiple times, cutting their throat, and shooting them multiple times is self-defense? If Jodi Arias is acquitted, the jury will have set the record for stupidity.

      • Jun says:

        You’d be surprised

        but it has rare occurrences

      • jm says:

        I don’t get how it can be self-defense simply because she voluntarily drove so far to get to the victim and she was armed and ready to kill. The Jodi Arias case sickens me in so many ways in that she is playing a victim while it is clear to me she was a willing participant in kinky sex. The part that really gets me is her insinuation that the person she murdered was a pedophile with no evidence to back that up other than her “word.” I cannot wait to see the cross on her because the prosecutor seems to be seething to get at her lies. She is a compulsive and stupid liar just like GZ.

        • cielo62 says:

          jm~ So Jodi Arias claims her victim was a pedophile while Casey Anthony accused her own dad with sexual abuse? See a trend? Yes. See any evidence? NO! Just another red herring that the defense hopes will work for them.

      • racerrodig says:

        I for one don’t. if I didn’t know it was a real trial as a result of a real crime I’d say it was based off a movie script.

    • Xena says:


      This case seems just like the Jodi Arias trial. In that trial, the disgusting defense team is demonizing the victim when it is completely obvious that monster murdered the victim in cold blood.

      The more Jodi testifies about their sexual relationship, the more she confirms that she was Travis’ booty call who became jealous and killed him.

      • Tee says:

        @ Xena, I could not believe the things that she was saying, even if some were true the thing she did to that man came out of rage and hate no one deserves to die like that. i didn’t believe a word she said. I was reading some of the post of people supporting her it was the same as Those awful people that support Fogen. All I read was hate, hate for a man they didnt know, hate or a man that was so brutally murdered. I ask myself, how coud they support a person who could carry out such an awful crime.

  70. aussie says:


    can you tell me something, please?

    Is there a constitutional right to a trial? for everybody?

    This week a man accused of some killings, with no evidence released, was murdered in full view of the nation on national TV…. and some people are cheering. Did he have a right to a trial? Do the people who killed him have a right to one?

    If the suspicions the accusations were based on turn out to be no more accurate than GZ’s suspicions of Trayvon, will anyone ever be charged with this death?

    How is it decided which death results in charges and which not?

    Do they have to in any way PRODUCE any evidence they had to say this man was involved in the original deaths?

    What I’m getting at is, once someone is dead, does anyone have to PROVE they had good reason for pursuing him? because on that would depend whether his ensuing actions were attacks or standing his ground.

    Was GZ just trying to cash in on a culture that says any shoot by a cop is a good shoot?

    Do you guys living in the US feel SAFE?????? because I fear for you all from 12,000 miles away.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    • bettykath says:

      aussie, I agree with you. According to one report I read, close to 200 cop cars were at the scene when it was determined that there was a person in the cabin (by robot) and that they would burn the m-f down. They wanted to be sure the fire was hot enough and would burn long enough so that it didn’t matter whether the floor was wood or concrete. Sadly, I don’t expect anyone to be charged with a crime, not for killing whoever was in the cabin nor the newspaper woman. It is assumed that the man they killed is the one who killed police officers and the daughter and fiance of an LAPD cop so the investigations there are over but for the paperwork. Even when cops are charged, they tend to walk.

      The police here are being militarized to an alarming degree. One of the Koch’s, a billionaire who’s trying to buy the government, has a tank! I kid you not. It was in a parade in Colorado. One man objected to it and stood in its way until he was removed, probably arrested for disorderly conduct.

      No, I don’t feel safe but I object to my rights being taken away in some false sense that this will make me safer. In fact, it is the erosion of our constitutional rights that make feel unsafe.

      • aussie says:

        The latest news is they identified him by DENTAL RECORDS. Yet there was a claim a wallet with his licence was found in the burnt-out ruins. (Selective fire). Though one such had already been found a few days earlier in a skip.

        The first killings, of the couple, were being reported as a mystery even when the manhunt had started; apparently the main link to Chris Dorner was that a day or two after that shooting, they found his Facebook “manifesto”. No physical evidence at all. The two cops shot at the lights? could have been anybody, LAPD don’t appear to be too popular. Strange 8 bullets and one didn’t die, for a marksman.

        The cops having more and more weapons, and stronger ones, sort of makes sense, considering the populace at large is allowed them, therefore there’s a big pool of them available for criminal gangs. But I’d not call them “militarised” — the military have training and discipline and strict rules of engagement and COURT MARTIAL for those who break them.

        There are always a few dirty cops everywhere. Always a few little embarrassments to cover up. That is kinda normal, sadly.

        But to do this on national TV, live, with half the internet listening in on scanners, and expect to COVER IT UP……… and to expect everyone to BELIEVE IT………..

        It cost him his life, but they proved precisely what he was saying about them.

        Sadly the mindless haters are out in force calling him a murderer who deserved what he got. No evidence. No constitutional rights. Anyone decrying the cabin fire denigrated. Only the Second Amendment seems to be still in force, in some minds.

        Here in Australia something like this would lead to a Royal Commission, a special open inquiry with powers to compel any evidence it wants to hear. For you guys it seems to be a local issue, maybe not even as high as State level. I wonder if there will be any inquiry?

        And that is part of the problem. City and county police are too local, too involved, yet too few in each place to be properly trained. Anything goes wrong in a small place, it doesn’t affect anywhere else, as it’s “not our cops”. Small-town corruption or killings don’t even make the next town’s news.

        If the police were State wide, centrally trained by experts, and then allocated to places other than their home towns, they’d have less chance to favour people they know, more chance their stepping out of line would interest other people. and they can be rotated around so “gangs” can’t develop. For populous States maybe they could have 3 or 4 administrative divisions, better still as some competition between them for good public perception.

        How can a 10-man sheriff’s department investigate itself? would the complainant even survive having an “accident”? Here in Sydney, in the famous night entertainment area King’s Cross, over-run with drugs, in the 1990’s the only successful drug raid in years was when Internal Affairs raided the local police station. A lot of heads rolled. (I walked in there once, you could cut the weed smoke with a knife).

        I fear for you guys. I really do. How can you be a nation and still run your lives like a collection of 30 million separate small towns? where the other side of the street has different laws and different cops and different school system?

        Democracy is everyone having a vote and being allowed to use it. It’s not every 20 people doing everything their own way like 300 years ago when 20 people was all there was in one spot.

        /end rant/

        • cielo62 says:

          aussie~ Your rant is one I’ve voiced many times. The US is a large country, as in land mass. BUT it’s a small city in terms of THINKING. I hated GW Bush with a PASSION, but his No Child Left Behind had a kernal of a good idea in it. Our country, NATIONWIDE deserves the best education we can give the next generation. And yet localities fight tooth and nail to avoid it. I pity every kid educated in Louisiana. They rank 50th out of 50 for SAT scores and other academic markers. But no worries! SOON Texas will rank at the bottom! Perry and his buddies could not care less about a quality education here, hence slashing the education budget year after year IN SPITE OF population growth!   The small town thinking is equally to blame for the downfall of America. The Great Generation thought of the US as just that “US, in it TOGETHER.” Nowadays, it’s all for ME, ME, ME in my little corner of America. Ignorance and violence; a dangerous combination. (end of my rant)

      • lurker says:

        Sheriff Arpaio down in Arizona apparently also go ahold of a tank from somewhere. He employed it (God knows why) in a raid on a suburban house. The claim was that they were going after a cache of guns. Fortunately the occupants were not at home–although a dog died after being driven BACK INTO the house once it was ablaze (story was that the Sheriff’s boys shot in tear gas that was ignited by a candle or burning incense inside). Only weapons ever found there was a registered handgun and some antique collectible (cover story–the guy must have been tipped off and moved his stuff).

        The tank, btw also did some damage by way of rolling over a neighbor’s car.

        These are the folks now armed and sitting outside schools in Maricopa County.

        Think we should feel safe?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        But Dorner’s wallet was supposedly found discard a few days before, I believe the day he tried to hijack a boat. Did they really identify him from dental records, because it sure sounds like they really can’t and they’re using the excuse of finding ID to cover their asses. What kinda ID survives that kinda fire? And why would it be reported that his ID was found earlier in the week?

      • cielo62 says:

        bettykath~ I don’t trust cops, and never have. It’s not so much the stories of the bad ones that influence me, but the FACT that these bad cops NEVER are held accountable for their crimes! Yes, I always agree that there are bad teachers and pedophiles and thieves in the teaching ranks BUT they get taken down very hard when they get caught. NOT SO with cops! I love my students, so I don’t bullshit them with lies to “trust cops.” I tell them just do what they tell you to do. Call a lawyer and family right away. But until then, just do what you are told. WE, the common citizens, are the new runaway slaves.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Aussie, Betty, Professor is taking a little nap, so let me sneak in quite a bit because I like the question.

      The answer is IMO: No. And, partially yes.

      No, because there is no fundamental interest of the individual to be protect by such a right (i.e. “right to trial”). The individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Anyone thus innocent (be it “presumed”) has no interest in having a trial because his innocence is intact and going to trial will put that innocence in jeopardy. His goal is to forever remain innocent. .

      The only one who has the ‘right to trial’ (i.e. prosecute) is the State because that’s the only process through which it can break through the wall of innocence of an individual and prove his/her guilt. Any individual caught up in that process has a ‘right’ to ‘FAIR trial’ (as opposed to ‘right to trial’).

      From the perspective/dimension of the Constitution (and Theory of The State, if you will), the State is obliged to capture and put to trial any individual/fugitive who in all reasonability may have committed serious crime(s). In trying to fulfill that obligation agents acting on behalf of the State may respond with proportionate force to protect their lives and the (re)public. In such a scenario, you basically have two fundamental rights at loggerheads with each other: ‘due process, etc. for the suspect’ and ‘self-defense’ for State paratroopers/agents. The right to ‘Self-defense’ is superior to all other rights.

      This is as far as I will dare go and will not be commenting on the Dorner-case specifically because of lack of details and accurate information on what happened.

      • Dennis says:

        The government or police are not allowed to execute people and play judge, jury, and executioner. This is the reason why we have a Constitution. Everybody, no matter how much of a piece of crap they are, deserve and should receive a fair trial and be judged by a jury of their peers, or a judge if they opt for a bench trial. In the newest couple NDAAs passed by Obama, assassination is now authorized against anybody who is a threat to the government….i mean national security.

        I’m not going to defend Dorner’s actions, but there is sufficient evidence that the LAPD caused the whole fiasco. The other day LAPD shoots at and almost kills two people…they offer to buy them a new truck. That department is beyond corrupt and those actions prove it. If you snitch on a corrupt cop for beating a suspect, you get fired or have a convenient accident…and you lose your pension. After Dorner was fired, he didn’t really have anything to lose at that point.

      • SearchingMind says:

        We are essentially saying the same thing, Dennis. But right now, we do not have enough to conclude either that (a) Dorner was executed by the cops because he was unarmed- or was armed but did not fire at the cops who were trying to apprehend him; did not kill any of the cops during that attempt to apprehend him; offered to give up and be arrested; the cops could have captured him without risking certain death, etc. OR (b) the cops killed Dorner while defending themselves because Dorner was armed; fired at the cops who were trying to apprehend him; in fact succeeded in killing one of those cops trying to apprehend him; capturing him alive would entail certain death to one or more cops; all other means to apprehend Dorner without loss of lives has been exhausted, etc. We just do not know enough to make sound judgments at this point. That’s where we disagree. I do not believe that we have the “sufficient evidence” you talk about.

      • bettykath says:

        So without a prosecution, Dorner is innocent. Just burned.

      • bettykath says:

        Just like Ken Lay (is that his name), the Enron guy. He died before the verdict so he was innocent and his family got to keep his millions.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      No, I for one, definitely do not feel safe. I don’t feel safe from gun-toting citizens and and I don’t feel safe from the cops. But I’m not into a kneejerk response. I’m not going to run out and buy weapons.

      I think the right to be safe and protected from other citizens and law enforcement trumps the right to bear arms.

    • Aussie, if minimum wage is so high, how much is a Big Mac?i need an answer to a right to worker. Thank you

  71. ay2z says:

    Correction, August 2011, no day date given for the photo. (ghosts must be playing on the keyboard tonight, sorry)

  72. ay2z says:

    LLMPapa did a video of image manipulation, using the elongated and distorted image that WESH now sports on it’s Trayvon Martin header.

    Other images were said to be 12 or 14 years old, so I thought the red Hollister shirt photo, with a normal shaped head,was one of those photos of a much younger Trayvon.

    Truth is, according to the date that photo was taken, that Trayvon was 16 years old when the photo was taken on August 11th, 2011. That is 6 months younger than when he was gunnded down in cold blood.

    But Fox and WESH have clearly not asked their photographers if this new Omara handout, even appears normal. And still they use it.

    Source for this info, is Jonathan Capehart who got the photo date from Trayvon’s own lawyer.

  73. Trained Observer says:

    Or work to expose Fogen’s dirty laundry !

  74. Trained Observer says:

    “Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda and O’Mara agreed to work together on a juror questionnaire. O’Mara predicted jury selection would last one to two weeks. They’ll need a panel of six plus alternates.” — Orlando Sentinel

    Definitely, I was wrong earlier on number of jurors.

    A smaller jury pleases me, though. More opportunity for a smaller panel to bond and do what’s right.

  75. LLMPapa says:

    Grab a cup of coffee, this is a long one.

    • ay2z says:

      There’s a fine example of undermining a hypothesis of a self-proclaimed, book selling expert.!

      • ay2z says:

        The expert might go back and re-work his start point from ‘he’s here now, just staring at me’ and start his clock from there, but still, even if we accept that the killer was parked at the clubhouse at that, but he should be certain of that assumption as well.

        But now that his book is written in stone, so to speak, he can’t change his position, especially with the news videos out there.

        One more assumption that hasn’t shown up as documented fact, is precisely where the shooter got out of his car and where he car was found after the shooting (nevermind who took control of the vehicle and when).

      • racerrodig says:

        Oh, that’s gonna leave a mark…….not to mention jaws left agape.

      • cielo62 says:

        I might be cynical BUT I do believe that Knox is just angling to get an “expert” gig on this case. After all, win or lose, HE GETS PAID. So why would he care if GZ is a total liar? He still gets paid!

        Sent from my iPod

    • Rachael says:

      Good cup of coffee.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. It’s most worthy of the time. Mr. Expert has apparently watched your, Trent’s and Dave’s videos. What he hasn’t done, evidently, is read material that suggests that GZ cut Trayvon off where he could not reach Green’s townhome. Mr. Expert also omitted all reference to where Trayvon’s body was found — about 40 ft. south of where GZ said the altercation took place.

      Thanks, LLMPapa.

    • Jun says:

      The reason that guy is not an expert is…

      He says that Fogenhats is not credible

      than later takes his word of him just walking across the T

      and then adds some fantasy mystery of what the victim Trayvon was doing and could have made it home

      without even taking into account that he earlier stated that Fogenhats is not credible, and could have made it back to his truck, and question what the hell Fogenhats was doing himself

      The only believable statement this “expert” made is that Fogenhats should have made and could have made it back to his truck, if that was Fogenhats’ intent

      I do not know how this idiot can claim to be an expert and he does not look at all the details

      • racerrodig says:

        Sometimes “Economy of words” or “less is more” works best. Let me give this a try.

        My version of a book written about this using facts alone.

        Chapter 1) FogenPhoole profiles victim
        Chapter 2) FogenPhoole follows victim
        Chapter 3) FogenPhoole detains victim
        Chapter 4) FogenPhoole shoots victim for no reason
        Chapter 5) FogenPhoole admits to shooting victim
        Chapter 6) It is proven Victim was simply walking home
        Chapter 7) FogenPhoole is charged with 2nd Degree Murder
        Chapter 8) FogenPhoole tells preposterous story and lies
        Chapter 9) FogenPhoole is not credible

        The End

    • Nefertari05 says:

      Wow! “CLEARLY, Mr. Expert”, Indeed!

    • Tzar says:

      ooh ooh I love it when you make the long ones
      *gotta go make popcorn*
      woo hooo

    • jm says:

      Bravo! Do you think Mr. Expert will get to see your video?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hope so………

        ***Great video LLMPapa. Thank you so much for your HUGE contributions to the cause of justice for Trayvon!

      • cielo62 says:

        Jm- why not? He’s stolen lots of other good stuff from this blog. EXCEPT for the fact that here we use ALL of the evidence!

        Sent from my iPod

    • aussie says:


      We ourselves have totally discredited the Taaffe-Clubhouse section as pure fabrication.

      But if the expert is relying on GZ’s timelines, then it is only fair for him to stick to them consistently.

      In my personal opinion, the closest Trayvon ever got to the T was around the little tree that wounded GZ and where the key/flashlight combo was found, and even that by approaching from the south being chased. I don’t believe he was ever north of that point at any stage.

      • Jun says:

        The guy is just a snake oil salesman trying to capitalize on the numbnuts and a dead kid

        He discredits himself by saying

        “the defendant’s timeline is not credible”

        then after saying that, he just takes the defendant’s word on what he says happened at the T

        If the story went as Fogenhats told it, then yes, Trayvon would have made it home and could have made it home

        He fails to take into account what Fogenhats was doing in his 2 minutes of missing time

    • bettykath says:

      In the walk-thru, the defendant claims that Trayvon circled his car on Twin Trees but in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house! Poor fogen. He didn’t know where he was.

      • LLMPapa says:

        I’m not sure what you mean by this:

        in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house!

        From his 2/26 interview with Detective Doris Singleton:

        DS: Is he walking completely around the car?

        GZ: Yes, ma’am.

        DS: Okay.

        GZ: Um, and dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on. I…

        DS: So you’d come off your street and gotten onto another street?

        GZ: Yes ma’am.

        DS: At some point.

        GZ: Yes ma’am. It goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood. I didn’t know the names of the street. Um, or where he went, so I got out of my car to look for the street sign and to see if I could see where he cut through so I could tell the police.

        DS: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?

        GZ: Yes, ma’am.

        Sounds like he told her the circling happened after he’d come off HIS street (RVC) and gotten onto ANOTHER street (TTL)

        Personally? I don’t think there was ever a moment when Mr Zimmerman didn’t know EXACTLY where he was.

        • racerrodig says:

          I’d say that since FogenPhoole is so detail oriented on his NEN call “….he’s got a button on his shirt…” “…he’s up to no good…” etc. and there is no mention of a vehicle circling in real time, there was no such circling. He decided to make Black Dynamite Slim far more menacing.

      • lurker says:

        It seems as though the “now he’s looking at me” and the bit about “he has his hand in his pants, he’s a black male” in the NEN call tape matched up with the time that Z. claimed to still be parked in front of the club house. And that is the only reference in the call that might conceivably match with a story of circling the truck.

        One suspicion I have had from the beginning is that Z. completely invented the part about parking in order to make the call because he was afraid of being accused of unsafe driving while on the phone. It’s pretty hard to imagine any exact locations of anything–except that whatever Z. says has no basis in fact.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Make of it what you will but the NeN call starts at 7:09 which is nearly 45 minutes after Trayvon left 711 on a 16 minute walk home. Shave about 3 minutes off of that, because the NeN call begins at the Mail Shed which is about 3 minutes from Brandy Green’s house. So, with 45 minutes on a 13 minute walk, just how likely is it that GZ is anywhere near RVC when Trayvon comes by the area? GZ certainly didn’t spend 32 minutes patrolling around the area without getting any of his light events picked up by the cctv’s.

      • bettykath says:

        I shouldn’t have done this at 3 am The interview I’m talking about is the one Singleton and Serino did with him reviewing the NEN call on 2/29. The defendant said that Trayvon approached his car and had his hand in his waistband while he was at the clubhouse. Singleton pressed him for when he moved from the clubhouse to TTL. In this interview, there is no car walk-around at all, just an approach at the club house.

        I guess what confused me is if the walk-around happened, it would have been, time-wise, where he’s talking about Trayvon approaching the car.

      • racerrodig says:

        3 Streets, can’t remember 1, confused on where any alleged vehicle circling took place, never mentions it in real time something like “… he’s circling my schruck…….what is his deal, get that officer here now”

        There was no vehicle circling……….anywhere.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Poor Fogen didn’t know where he was is a crock of shit on his part. this POS is a born liar and, he wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped him in his FAT FACE. he is such a poor excuse for a human being. Fogen follows this kid in his car and then on foot and, when he catches up to him he is the one who started the confrontation by trying to detain Trayvon. there is a witness to this very aspect of the confrontation which Fogen started.

        As I have said before I’m saying it again. I believe there is someone who saw this go down in it’s entirety but, we just don’t know who this person is just yet. there is a lot of stuff that the state has, that hasn’t been made public yet and, the person who saw it all is in with the unknown evidence. the night has a thousand eyes and I believe it. 35-life for LARD ASS!

      • Jun says:

        You can tell he’s lying by the contradictions

        On the phone call, he says they are at the clubhouse, then Trayvon is walking, looking at houses, then he notices him and runs… which turns out to start from around the clubhouse

        It sounds to me, Fogenhats was tailing Trayvon in his car, creeping behind him, stalking him, and then Trayvon got scared and tried to run for it, as he sensed danger, and he was correct in his assertion

    • Malisha says:

      Damn! Nailed it again! Nails Nails Nails Nails (where IS THAT COFFIN?) ❗ ❗ ❗

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Not to mention that his shots are taken standing up, when the shooter himself claims he was on the bottom shooting up with his elbow fast to the ground.

      Oh right, no peer review, eh? I wonder why? LOL!

  76. Rachael says:

    Happy Valentines Day!!!!

  77. Xena says:

    Images: Many looks of George Zimmerman

    GZ’s facial expressions speaks volumes about his anger issues.

  78. Nefertari05 says:

    Regarding the “roll in” . Could O’Mara be setting the stage for a “directed verdict”? Per wiki: “In a criminal case in the United States, once the prosecution has closed its case, the defendant may move for a directed verdict. If granted, the verdict will be “not guilty”. ”

    Can he be attemtpting to force the prosecution to enter the statements, during the case-in chief, to present their strongest case, by warning them (implicitly) that they may not be able to use them in a cross examination or rebuttal of the defense’s case – since the defense may not have to present a case?

    Are they trying to force the prosecution to put fogen’s self-defense claim, before the jury, so fogen doesn’t have to testify? Is this question of a “roll in” a manipulative tactic, by the defense?

    I don’t think the judge would grant a directed verdict, but if I understand it correctly, it would depend on the stregnth of their case-in-chief, which is significantly stronger WITH the statements. Hmmmm? More questions…..

    • Jun says:

      I dont believe so. They can present him as the killer, the guy that did it, with none of the statements by the defendant. They will use the NEN call, and that is about all they need.

      IMO, the state has to prove murder. If it is proven murder, it is obviously not self defense. From what Freddy stated, there is no self defense instruction if there is no evidence of self defense at all, which in fact, there is none.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        Thanks Jun –
        Since there’s no doubt fogen pulled the trigger, guess requesting a directed verdict doesn’t help the defense. Right, to claim self-defense the defense must present the claim to the jury. I lost that point for a moment in marinating on the ramifications and WHY O’Mara would seriously propose such a thing. Maybe the professor will address it, when he gets a minute.

      • Jun says:

        Whether or not Fogenhats testifies, he is still the proven murderer, the guy that did it

        Omara can claim it was self defense

        but if it is shown that it was a cold blooded murder, it is obviously not self defense

        People are gonna see that the defendant should have just had self control and not be a big fat fucking liar, and just left the kid alone, because he did not do anything at all, and he did not even attack the defendant, at all, even in self defense

        In fact, Omara cant even submit any of Fogenhats’ claims, without him taking the stand under cross and oath

        • racerrodig says:

          Hey FogenPhoole….I really hope you read what Jun said here…..
          because it’s all true and it must really suck to be you !! Just sayin’

    • MelRoy says:

      It can happen if the state does not present sufficient evidence for the trial to go to jury.

  79. ay2z says:

    Xena– apologies for phonetic typing of your name!!

  80. Xena says:

    Circuit Judge Debra Nelson today rejected George Zimmerman’s request to delay the start of his “stand your ground” hearing, saying that it will start April 22.

    She also ordered 500 potential jurors, more than the Seminole County Courthouse can hold, for Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.

    There’s no report yet on the Motion to depose Attorney Crump.,0,3996028.story

    • Jun says:

      Great news

    • lurker says:

      It would appear as though there will be a hearing starting on Ap 22. As I think this through, if the self defense issue is essentially taken off the table before the trial–as it certainly will be–is this a case of it will be all over but the shouting?

      I mean, there has never been any doubt at all that Zimmerman shot Travyon and this was the cause of his death–and he has said as much many times over. Would the trial then consist mostly of wrangling over a jury determination of second degree vs manslaught?

      • Xena says:

        @lurker. I’m not sure how it works to roll-in an immunity hearing with the trial. For one, an immunity hearing is decided by the judge and not the jury.

        I have seen cases where after the State puts on its case in chief, the defense will motion for dismissal due to lack of evidence. The jury is then removed from the courtroom while the judge hears the defense argue against the charges based on prior case decisions. Then the State presents its argument based on those case decisions. In those cases that I know about where this happened, none of them were dismissed. Several had more than one charge, and the judge dismissed maybe a charge, but not the entire case.

        If per chance this is what O’Mara is thinking or hoping will happen, he is, IMO, throwing GZ under the bus because of Florida self-defense case decisions that are not to GZ’s benefit, with the Dooley case being a most recent one.

      • ay2z says:

        Zena, in today’s jury instructions, the judge in the Davis trial mentioned ‘Stand Your Ground’ as part of the instructions. Sounded like this jury could consider an SYG as part of the self defense evidence.

        The defense saying it wants the jury to decide everything rather than a separate self-defense and/or syg hearing?

        • Xena says:

          @ay2z. I have to get familiar with the Davis case. The Arias case has had my attention now for several weeks. Do you know whether Davis was denied immunity?

      • lurker says:

        Xena–It sounded like the outcome of today’s hearing was that there would be a separate SYG event beginning in April. And then preparations going forward for the jury trial in June.

      • Malisha says:

        If you fail at a SYG hearing you can present your self-defense claim to the jury in due course.

        I predict a motion to postpone because of Fogen’s mental health — after maybe a week or two. A couple of psychiatrists will testify about how stressy it is to be hated and called a racist when all you wanted to do was implement God’s plan. Yeah, bring’em on.

      • Tzar says:

        wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Tzar says: wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.

        I don’t understand that BS either. Why is Judge Nelson allowing O’Mara to drive this train.

        Why is she allowing only two weeks for the immunity hearing because hearing from O’Mara he will need more than a week to present the defense’s case so whatever the balance is the prosecution will have to squeeze in whatever testimony they can using the balance.

        And why are they allowing for 500 potential jurors? Because all O’Mara needs is one devout George supporter to get a hung jury.

        That’s a ridiculous number and it will take weeks and weeks before a jury is seated and that’s exactly what O’Mara wants.

        I can imagine O’Mara and West will be filing motions until the beginning of the jury trial.

  81. ay2z says:

    Davis taped confession being played for the jury, so that trial and other news may take priority

  82. ay2z says:

    sounds like there is video, just not broadcasting live and will be available later online

    “We post all of our videos online and will post it here when we have it.
    by Kevin Clay/ Staff 1:07 PM”

  83. Chocolate Diva says:

    Have any of y’all seen the video MANYBUDDIES post on Youtube. About the Jacksonville expert saying GZ timeline is off but its evidence that TM was standing over GZ when he was shot.

    • ay2z says:

      been discussed here, concensus is that this expert does not consider complete evidence, there’s another explanation for the two bullet hole in clothing observations and it’s NOT Trayvon on top for other reasons.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        His experiment loses credibility because his shooter is firing the gun while standing, and into two garments hanging one in front of the other. While the real experiment calls for the shooter to be on his back on the ground, with his elbow fast to the ground.

        For his gravity fall on the shirts, the bullet holes will have to line up, when the shirts are put on a mannequin of appropriate dimensions and positioned leaning forward, over a shooter laying flat on his back. If the holes do not line up, or if a straight in shot can’t be obtained in this position, GZ is toast!

    • ay2z says:

      search back and also check the recent articles for more

    • Jun says:

      I would not call the person an expert because

      a) He fails to take note of the ballistics and forensics of the gunshot

      b) He fails to take note of witnesses

      Him saying his timeline is off, really does not take an expert to tell he is lying

      Omara is not gonna be able to reasonably and truthfully match the forensics and ballistics and witnesses to his client’s story or stories

      a) The gunshot muzzle made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. If the hoodie or undershirt was not held in place, the shirt would have expelled into the body from momentum, and then the shoot and hot burning would have added more gunshot debris to other parts of the body, from the shirt going back into the chest area.

      b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away.

      For the above two readings, the shirt had to have been held firmly in front of the victim, at about a foot away from the victim’s body. The gunshot muzzle only made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. That way it is a contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt, but is a intermediate range gunshot away from the chest for the wound. They likely did science tests to prove this.

      c) The bulletholes in the hoodie and undershirt do not line up with the gunshot wound. The trajectory is str8 front to back. To line up the bullet holes in the hoodie and undershirt to the gunshot wound, the hoodie and undershirt have to be pulled down, and to the left to line up.

      Add this all up and the defendant pulled the victim towards himself and held him in place to shoot the victim. The hoodie and undershirt, do not have any weight, to cause as much pulling as it happened on the night of the murder. The can did not even weigh the shirt down, nor does it provide adequate gravitational pull for the pulling that occurred. Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.

      Omara will not be able to explain this away to match the defendant’s story, because the defendant’s story is a complete lie

      • Jamekia Bell says:

        Jun ~ I said the same thing. I believe GZ was pulling on TM hoodie trying to detained him.
        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

      • aussie says:

        Great expert.

        WE all had that figured about 10 minutes after that evidence dump came out, with the ballistics and photos of clothing in.

        Of course he had to wait till he wrote a book about it, so he can go on TV with this wrong assessment to plug the book.

        • Xena says:

          @aussie. Just read your comment and one before and something occurred to me. Maybe Judge Nelson is not granting continuances because of books and Junior’s media’s rants potentially tainting the jury pool. There are also attempts to intimidate and harm witnesses. O’Mara already made in known in court that internet bloggers doxed the wrong DeeDee.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away. ”

        Is that supposed to mean that the gun was about an arm’s length away from Martin’s chest when it was fired?

        If so, then both of Zimmerman’s arms being about the same length as each other means that if he has a grip on the hoodie and the shirt underneath with one hand, that arm would have to be fully extended and the one holding the gun would have to be back holding the gun against his own chest with his wrist bent at almost a 90 degree angle, which seems a most peculiar way to fire a gun.

        “Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.”

        I’m curious as to your source for that assertion.

        If that was said in any of the official reports I must have somehow missed seeing it.

        Someone must have removed the can from the bag and put it back in one of Trayvon’s pockets, because the can was there to get in the way of the cops and paramedics trying to do CPR and whatnot.

        They specifically mention feeling it when they lifted his shirt to get to the wound to try to seal it.


      • Jun says:

        The crime scene layout evidence

        It showed the bag and can to be at the east of the body

        The muzzle to target distance is about a foot, but the defendant was about an arm’s length away when he fired the weapon

      • Dennis says:

        It is hard to believe the media trolls. Most of them think the prosecution has a weak case. They are all braindead and do not follow the actual evidence in the case.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s not quite true. I’ve been watching the news for over half a century now, starting from back when we had Reporters like Walter Cronkite and Eric Severid. Back then people had more face to face social contact than we have today. The media had to think of what their listeners were going to sound like, sprouting news reports that were too badly skewed.

          Back then, if a report got a big story wrong, you weren’t likely to see them on tv ever again. Reporters lived on their credibility, thus they mostly worked their reports themselves, or at least took a hand in the writing. It was their careers that were on the line. Not so today. Today the reports are written in the back rooms. The people you see on the air are simply “talking heads”, reading scripts! They, themselves, probably don’t pay any attention to the news, because they realize quickly that, knowing that what you are being asked to say is wrong, kinda makes it difficult to keep your job. So, in on air broadcasting, ignorance is bliss. You can easily say whatever is required, to please corporate, because you don’t know or care about any of it.

          Believe me, they know what they’re doing. They know when they’re presenting a slanted story, because they have to decide what facts to leave out. If they didn’t know and understand the truth, they wouldn’t know how to fashion a credible lie. One that makes them look, at worse negligent or uninformed, as opposed to fashioning a story that makes them appear to be overt liars. So, they have to know what they’re doing and they have to be very careful, how they go about doing it.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        All those official crime scene photos and drawings and diagrams were made after the attempts at first aid on Trayvon had occurred.

        The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.

        Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.

        Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.


      • Jun says:

        Well the hoodie and undershirt had to have been held firmly in place when the shot was fired otherwise there would be different readings and different forensics

        If the clothing was loosely hanging, the momentum of the gunshot would have caused the fabric to also go into the body because of the gunshot, unless it was firmly held in place

      • roderick2012 says:

         onlyiamunitron says:The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
        Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.

        I am fairly sure that George placed the can into Trayvon’s hoodie after he shot him because as I explained on another site:

        1) If Trayvon had decided to ditch the bag and place his snacks in his hoodie pocket then he would have placed both the bag of Skittles and the can of soda, but the bag of Skittles was on the ground and the bag was near Trayvon which rules out that theory.

        2) If Trayvon had used his soda can as the ‘brick’ that Zimmerman claimed hit him he would have dropped the bag around the tea where he supposedly ambushed George. That didn’t happen because the bag was near Trayvon’s body along with the Skittles plus how was Trayvon able to put the can of soda into his hoodie after he punched George, slammed George’s head into the concrete sidewalk , smothered George in under a minute and had enough time to place the can of soda into his hoodie before George shot him

        3) Trayvon placed the can of soda into his hoodie pocket after he was shot.

        “Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.”
        I could have sworn that George stated that his arm was fully extended when he shot Trayvon.

        Unitron, just go back to Talkleft with the rest of the trolls.

        • racerrodig says:

          Thank You !! I thought the Professor sent him packing a month ago.

          For the record, again, anyone who signs their name as uni does on an internet site has issues.

        • cielo62 says:

          roderick~ GZ not only stated his arm was extended, he SHOWED it in several videotaped interviews. It’s about the only thing he has stayed consistent about; NOT shooting his left hand!

      • gblock says:

        Was the can ever in his pocket before the shooting? At the 7-11, he put the Skittles in his pocket and carried the can in his bag – probably to keep it somewhat cool (putting it in his pocket and close to his body would cause it to warm up faster).

  84. Nefertari05 says:

    Weeks of 4/22 & 4/29 set aside for immunity hearing, but will discuss next week,2/22 whether to “roll immunity hearing into trial”. Also, 2/22 argument to depose Crump. Attys believe/agree on 500 ppl jury pool needed.

  85. ay2z says:

    shannon, it’s not being covered now, they were waiting for the feed on WESH but says not happening now.

    Updates by Kealing’s texts

    1:16 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    Attorneys in #GeorgeZimmerman murder case say they will need jury pool of 500. #TrayvonMartin

    Read more:

    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense next Friday 2/22 will argue to depose #TrayvonMartin family attorney #Crump.

    1:12 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense indicates they may seek to roll immunity hearing in to trial. For now judge sets aside two weeks 4-22 and 4-29.

    1:09 PM
    bob kealing @bobkealing
    #GeorgeZimmerman defense asks for immunity hearing weeks of April 22 and 29 but will discuss rolling the issue in to the trial next week.

    • lurker says:

      A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?”

        They have to find, in the area around where Trayvon’s death took place, people who haven’t been paying any attention to the news coverage of the case and haven’t formed any sort of opinion about it. Enough of them to seat a jury of 6, plus however many alternates they think they’ll need.

        I’m thinking not so much excessive as excessively optimistic.


      • cielo62 says:

        Sounds excessive. But then again, MOM will seek to exclude all blacks, sympathetic Hispanics, and anybody with any contact at all with teens! Yeah,500 will probably be a starter set!

        Sent from my iPod

        • A jury made up of Afro Peruvians only… 🙂

          PS Cielo….2 cents?………you didn’t?….. naughty girl 😉

          • racerrodig says:

            Lets face reality here people. The way this is going for FogenPhoole, I’ll bet there are 4 black moms with good jobs and 17 year old sons at home……on the jury. One children’s rights activist and one nurse.

            The nurse will really be the key…..

    • Nefertari05 says:

      This whole “rolling into trial” thing is interesting.
      1. There’s the shift of burden of proof issue.
      2. There’s the “preponderance” vs. the “beyond a reasonable doubt” issue. Which one holds?
      3. There’s the who goes first issue.
      4. Who decides issue – the judge or the jury.Can the judge override the jury. Is fogen going for a bench trial, now?
      5. Would this really have any effect other than to render him immune from civil litigation, in the event of a “not guilty, by reason of self-defense”?
      6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution?

      Is O’Mara just having one of those “My client wants to testify for you, judge, but not be cross examined by the state” fantasies?Questions, Questions, I have many questions. The main one is, has O’Mara lost his mind, or is he sly like a fox.

      • racerrodig says:

        “6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution? ”

        He’s admitting defeat with that. He’s saying “WTF, we can’t win so keep going as I’m not getting paid anyway.”

        When he looses a SYG hearing any lawyer would want time to prepare for trial. He’s basically saying “If we lose an Immunity Hearing, we have nothing anyway so what the point”

      • Malisha says:

        It’s a use of words to try to help them avoid looking defeated. There is no such thing as a “self-defense hearing” unless it’s a SYG. O’Mara said it’s not SYG and of course it’s not SYG. Saying he wanted a separate hearing doesn’t mean he was going to either get one or be able to make a decent presentation at one. So he has to concede that he goes to trial. At trial of course a defendant’s allowed to claim “traditional self-defense.” He’s saying he will do that — OK, big deal. “Rolling” something that doesn’t exist “into the trial” simply means he can’t make a proper showing and he won’t be able to set, prepare or use a hearing, so he’s got to choose between plea or trial. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! 😆

        • racerrodig says:

          I think Judge Nelson will simply say…..file a SYG Motion or off to trial we go. We DON”T make up new court procedures to placate your client…..De – nied………….for the 3rd time.