Zimmerman: Why No Amount of Lawyers, Guns and Money Will Save Him

The role of the lawyers during a criminal trial, whether prosecution or defense, is to present evidence through witness testimony via direct and cross examination, raise appropriate motions and objections at appropriate times, argue what facts have been proven or not proven to the jury, and argue to the judge which legal rules should be applied to resolve disputed issues that come up from time to time.

Lawyers are advocates, not witnesses. Juries are instructed in every criminal case that statements by lawyers are not evidence and may not be considered as evidence.

There are only two exceptions to this rule:

(1) By implication: When a lawyer asks a leading question and the witness agrees or disagrees, the jury may consider the answer as evidence that incorporates the lawyer’s statement in the question asked. As is true of any evidence admitted during trial, the jury gets to decide whether to believe or disbelieve the witness who agreed or disagreed with the statement and how much weight to give to the answer.

(2) By stipulation or agreement: When opposing counsel agree that the jury may consider a particular fact as undisputed. The stipulation then becomes part of the evidence the jury may consider.

Mark O’Mara will tell the jury during his opening statement that the evidence will show that Zimmerman killed Martin in self-defense. During summation, he can argue what facts have been proven or disproven in support of his argument that the prosecution failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not kill Martin in self-defense. The jury may not consider anything he says as evidence and the same is true for anything the prosecutor says.

Zimmerman’s statements to police and various other witnesses before trial may or may not be admissible at trial according to the rules of evidence.

Subject to the Rule of Completion, the prosecution may introduce any statement he made under the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule. The Rule of Completeness permits the defense to clarify the meaning or intent of any statement offered by the prosecution by completing the statement.

For example, let’s assume a defendant said during a long custodial interrogation at the station house, “Sure I did it. I’ll admit it if it makes you happy and you let me go even though I would be lying if I said that.”

If the prosecution elicited the statement, “Sure I did it,” the defense would be permitted on cross examination to elicit the rest of the statement, “I’ll admit it if it makes you happy and you let me go even though I would be lying if I said that.” The purpose of the rule is to prevent the prosecutor from abusing the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule by introducing bits and pieces of statements that misrepresent what was said.

Statements admitted under the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule are defined as not hearsay by the rules of evidence. Hearsay, of course is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

The declarant is the person who made the statement and, but for the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule, a defendant’s statement would be inadmissible hearsay.

In fact, it is inadmissible hearsay, if the defense offers the defendant’s statement to prove the truth of the matter asserted. In the example above, the defendant’s statement comes in under the Rule of Completion because the prosecutor opened the door by using the admission rule to create a false impression that the defendant had confessed. If the prosecutor had not done that, the statement would be inadmissible hearsay, if the defense offered it to prove the defendant did not commit the crime.

The vast majority of Zimmerman’s statements to police and others before trial are inadmissible hearsay, if offered by the defense to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

I believe we can reasonably assume that the prosecution will not offer Zimmerman’s exculpatory statements during its case, so the jury will not have heard any evidence of self-defense when the prosecution rests its case.

Because of the hearsay rule, O’Mara cannot get any of Zimmerman’s exculpatory statements admitted to prove the truth of the matters asserted during the defense case, unless they would be admissible pursuant to one of the exceptions to the hearsay rule.

In another post, for example, I mentioned that Martin’s statements to Dee Dee expressing fear and describing what the creepy man was doing would be admissible to prove the truth of the matters he asserted because they are statements expressing an excited utterance and a present sense impression. Those are two exceptions to the hearsay rule.

Zimmerman’s exculpatory statements are not admissible pursuant to those exceptions because he had an opportunity and a motive to be deceptive after he killed Martin.

O’Mara probably will attempt to admit Zimmerman’s statements to the Physician’s Assistant at the family clinic where he sought treatment and permission to return to work. He will argue that Zimmerman’s statements are admissible as statements for purposes of medical diagnosis or treatment, an exception to the hearsay rule.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman, his claim of self-defense was neither relevant nor necessary for medical diagnosis or treatment. Therefore, those statements are not admissible under this exception to the hearsay rule.

In fact, Zimmerman probably will not even get a self-defense instruction, unless he testifies, because there will not be sufficient evidence to support giving a self-defense instruction. O’Mara cannot create a sufficient evidentiary foundation to support instructing the jury on self-defense by what he says during his opening statement because his statements are not evidence.

Therefore, Zimmerman has to testify. If he testifies, the prosecution gets to cross examine him. That means the prosecutor can confront him with every statement he made before trial that is inconsistent with or in conflict with a statement he made on direct examination.

During its rebuttal case after the defense rests, the prosecution can introduce any evidence it has that rebuts evidence presented by the defense during its case. This would include presenting forensic or other evidence that rebuts something Zimmerman said and it also includes evidence of bad character, if the defense opened the door by presenting evidence of good character during its case.

In conclusion, Zimmerman is between the proverbial rock and a hard place because he is unlikely to get a self-defense instruction unless he testifies, but if he testifies, his credibility likely will be destroyed by all of his inconsistent and conflicting statements to police and others.

Damned if he testifies and damned if he does not, George Michael Zimmerman is in such a hell of a jam that no amount lawyers, guns and money will save him from a lengthy prison sentence.

800 Responses to Zimmerman: Why No Amount of Lawyers, Guns and Money Will Save Him

  1. Jamekia Bell says:

    Mr. Leatherman I enjoyed coming on your page. You post the truth and that’s the reason why the GZ supporter disliked you so much.

  2. changsterdj says:

    Reblogged this on changsterdj and commented:
    Things that make you go hmmm

  3. Xena says:

    JUDGE LESTER DENIED ANITA SMITHEY’S IMMUNITY PETITION.
    ” In his order Tuesday, Lester wrote that Smithey “failed to demonstrate that she justifiably acted in self-defense.”

    Smithey now faces trial for 2nd degree murder.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-stand-your-ground-denied-anita-smithey-20121002,0,1427514.story

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Zimmerman had better thank his lucky stars, that he had not been allowed to flee to another country. This case has sparked “international outrage”, thus fleeing to a land without Constitutional protections and few, if any real rights, he’d be in a rather poor position, if some politician decided he could make hay of an arrest of GZ.

  4. Malisha says:

    Wait a minute, wait a minute — That would mean that any African American in this country right now who has any WHITE ancestors cannot possibly be prejudiced against whites, right? ANYBODY? So if a Black American says he is appalled that slave-owners routinely raped female slaves, that’s not an indication that he harbors any animus toward whites, right? HA HA HA HA!! There probably ARE no African Americans whose families have been here longer than two generations who are capable, under this definition, of prejudice against whites!! :mrgreen:

    • whonoze says:

      **insert tongue in cheek**

      I can’t despise the Germans ’cause my grandad was a kraut.
      Great great gramma was a Hugenout so dissing Frogs is out.
      I love all of my cousins, who are classified as black.
      (And B. works intel for the pentagon, so you don’t talk behind his back.)
      My family’s such a melting pot, it’s hard for me to hate
      If it weren’t for spics and wops, I guess I’d have to be a saint.

      **end parody**

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! Yeah, just think! Being SO INTEGRATED with humanity that you CAN’T hate! Alas, even with all the melting, there are still some lumps that refuse to join the pudding.

  5. MichelleO says:

    A NEW LINE OF THOUGHT:

    What do here think about the Zimmerman’s saying that GZ is not prejudiced because he has black members in his family? Do they not know that both his cousin and ex-fiancee have stated the the mother was very biased against brown and black people? GZ and the mother got into an argument because he brought his latina girlfriend to her house, which resulted in him disconnecting the electricity, locked the box, and then taking the key to the box with him.

    His cousin says that the mother was virulently racist, and talked openly and proudly about her racism. She even called herself a racist when discussing why she was against Barack Obama in the office where both she and GZ worked. She was so openly racist in her discussion, that the cousin protected a black co-worker there by pushing her into a back room (break room?), as to protect her from the hate speech being spoken by GZ’s mother.

    I think everyone realizes that there is such a thing as self-hatred. It is a known and well-documented psychological problem that affects people from all walks of life. A person can hate themselves because they feel they don’t measure up to societal norms or parental expectations.

    • Rachael says:

      I think saying he can’t be racist because his grandfather was black is a crock-o-sheyit. What does that have to do with anything?

    • Malisha says:

      I think a little dose of self-hatred would be good for George AND Gladys right now.

      • MichelleO says:

        ONE would hope that they are deeply analyzing how they raised their children, and how making racism a family value has gone all wrong for them. Something tells me that they are not into deep self-reflection, and that they are probably blaming everyone else for their problems.

    • elcy says:

      I think that, although the prosecution didn’t charge that Zimmerman was racist, they could easily disprove O’Mara’s claim that he couldn’t be. After all, Zimmerman has a Hispanic mother, too, and that didn’t stop him from making derogatory remarks about Mexicans on his old MySpace page.

      • MichelleO says:

        AND it didn’t stop her from teaching her children that marrying “white” was the only acceptable mating ideal for her. There are many Latinos who are against marrying black and brown people. They believe that marrying “white” helps to improve the race and societal standing. They do not realize that this is destructive and backwards thinking is self-hatred, and pass it on to their children.

    • Jun says:

      its probably a fake photograph of a black person.

  6. In Zimmermmans twisted mind he feels one of his favorite rap artists ‘stabbed him in the back ”

    http://www.vibe.com/article/george-zimmerman-believes-diddy-stabbed-him-back

    He relates to the song I Need A Doctor. You can listen to it on You tube. Just do a search there.

    LLMPAPA:
    Love your videos. Maybe you can do one on the song Zimmerman relates to.

    • MichelleO says:

      “Diddy isn’t the only hip-hop head Zimmerman felt he had a connection to. In another conversation, his sister compares Dr. Dre’s song, “I Need a Doctor,” to her brother’s current situation, to which he replies, “I’m so like Dr. Dre in the video.”

      THIS IS a bunch of bullshit. They know that the jailhouse telephone lines are bugged, and they already know that they have messed up by talking about moving money and hiding passports. They also know that, although the rallies are multicultural; that the movement is mostly populated by people of color. They know that Sharpton and Jackson have been at the forefront of this movement, and that many believe that the boy was profiled and executed because of his ancestry.

      I have no doubt that any of them listened to rap or even liked it. But talking as though any of these rappers had a personal relationship with them is absolutely bogus. This conversation is meant to demonstrate that they are both hip and not prejudiced against blacks in particular. It is all a very transparent ploy.

    • Malisha says:

      !!! I had not heard that stupid stuff about Diddy’s “stab in the back” until just now and I must admit that it is so dumb as to be disorienting. George and Shellie actually feel so “superior” that their “admiring” a Black performer should be enough currency to force that performer to feel a personal debt of gratitude to them! HUH? HELLO HELLO!! I guess it goes:

      We are naturally superior
      If we pay “like it” dues to any African Americans, then…
      They OWE us for liking them and…
      They better always accept OUR version of the world because…
      We LIKED them. That’s worth a LOT!

      I mean, I am just STUNNED with the stupidity of it. Even from THEM!

  7. Malisha says:

    JM, I write fast. I hear myself speak the words (subvocalized) and I type them as if I’m taking dictation. Sometimes I don’t even re-read to correct typos and then I get embarrassed later, reading it for errors and thinking, “ouch, too late to correct it.”

    I used to be a legal secretary. Before computers — so I type fast, remember what I hear, and try to use good grammar. No spell checks or grammar suggestions back then. :mrgreen:

    • jm says:

      Amazing Malisha. Wish I had your talent and skill to express myself. .

    • bettykath says:

      Malisha, I envy your ability for a one time write. Everything I write takes multiple drafts. It’s not unusual for me to write a bunch and edit it, write some more and edit it and then, when I think I’m done, it’s cut and paste and cut and paste ad nauseum until I’m satisfied. Then another time through to make sure the tenses are right and the spelling is close. Love the red line warning and the “right” click for spelling.

  8. Fed-up taxpayer says:

    I hope the jury is full of doting parents whose worst nightmare this case is, AND I hope that the Martin/Fultons do not break under the pressure of bullying and slander.

    I hope corruption in law enforcement is exposed and extirpated

  9. Malisha says:

    Yes. GZ supporters often make fun of him being “tired” since he was an athlete, —

    This should be a crime. This kid did not register to be a contender in a fight to the death with a gun-toting criminally-motivated crazy. He did not have to justify his actions to anyone; he had no expectation of being required to prevent his own murder. And if he was tired, that was his perfect right under the 14th amendment; and if he tried to defend himself but failed, that was his perfect right under the entire Constitution and his human life!

    Nobody has a right to require any different actions on Trayvon’s part, post-mortem, than he took. He needs no excuse for whatever HE did!

    George is the one who needs to explain himself and HE CAN’T.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Like I said, if anyone wants to see what GZ’s motivation for shooting would be, just look at the mess he would have been found in, if TM had survived and the police had found them both there.

      GZ covered with blood, TM elated with having been rescued and GZ taking a pat down and having his weapon discovered. Witnesses talking about arguments and running. Witnesses talking about screams for help. GZ would not stand a chance. The screams were recorded on 911 tapes and TM would be alive to claim his screams with his own voice. The news media came out that night too, they’d have asked questions of them both. The story that would emerge would paint GZ as a real and present danger to the neighborhood and the NW program. Police and everyone else would back away from him, he’d have to move away in the shame. Worse yet, there’s the prospect that he and the HOA would be sued.

      GZ shooting off his mouth, would cost the city and the HOA a bundle, by making it impossible to win they’d have to settle. The name Zimmerman would evoke disgust for a long time in the area.

      • Malisha says:

        RIGHT, AND he might never get a job again AND Shellie might come to her senses and divorce him.

      • MichelleO says:

        ” Police and everyone else would back away from him, he’d have to move away in the shame.”

        I WISH what you are saying was true. The fact that the SPD did not secure the crime scene, allowed Smellie to drive away with his vehicle, and permitted him to wash up at the police station, tells you that this story still wouldn’t have wound up with the happy ending you are telling.

        Both would have been taken in; but only ONE would have been properly checked for drug and alcohol usage. Only ONE person would have been believed (SPD is both lazy & dirty) even though there would have been the same holes in his story; and he would have still been allowed to describe his victim in criminal terms—insisting upon describing him as the “suspect.”

        It would have taken some time, as the SPD continued to drag their feet and to paint the young African American victim as some sort of hooligan—-but I believe only through attaining legal help, would Trayvon finally be freed and his name cleared.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      he truth is Martins was NOT an athlete he did play club football years before but was not on any team at the time of his death he did NOT play high school football…he was a very skinny kid with no record of ever being in even ONE fight in his life.

  10. Operacarla says:

    Dear Professor,

    Thank you for providing your expertise on this site! Something is bothering me about the Trayvon Martin case…in the Hannity interview at about the 16:15 minute George states that Investigators told him that Trayvon at this point knew that George was in contact with the police(?!)

    http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0S00Mm4GmtQBkEAREr7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=youtube+george+zimmerman+hannity&vid=3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D4692999826833424%26id%3De5e669756d18170b9bbc8b57236b5409%26bid%3DXwGA9Q2sT%252bCiOw%26bn%3DLargeThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dD9sQsk0rdRA&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD9sQsk0rdRA&tit=George+Zimmerman+Hannity+Interview+Full&c=5&sigr=11aigve24&&tt=b

    In Mark Osterman’s book Mark writes: “ that Zimmerman was told a Florida Department of Law Enforcement comparison confirmed, “by a 90 to 95% match,” the voice — captured on a 911 call during the altercation — was Zimmerman’s”
    Are these imaginary Police officers in George’s delusional mind or a part of something larger?
    Thanks again for all of your information.

  11. Malisha says:

    About Trayvon being out of breath or tired as a result of his walking or running, there’s another whole area of unknowns to be factored in IF we’re trying to figure out what Trayvon did and why (which is, strictly speaking, not necessary to any proof of the crime): here’s a kid who has no history of training for direct confrontation with an armed assailant. He has no history of martial arts or weapons training; he doesn’t hunt; he was not headed for a military career; he did not live in an inner city neighborhood where “everybody’s armed” or anything like that. He was a normal high school kid with a normal kind of background and to be followed (as he said he was, to DeeDee) and then confronted by an armed (I believe George had his weapon out well in advance of the actual shot being fired) and dangerous (obviously and undeniably) man probably disorganized his mind in a flash. The only reaction I can really predictably imagine is that “deer in the headlights” response that usually makes a person forget how to SPEAK, much less how to design a perfect escape like they do routinely on TV at a moment’s notice.

    Trayvon could have been a little winded and a little chilled, but the additional worry (“Who’s this creepy guy and what does he want from me?”) and the sudden shock of confrontation could have totally knocked the “planning instinct” out of him minutes before his untimely death. Remember, GEORGE had a chance to plan what he was doing; Trayvon did NOT.

    • TM says:

      Absolutely!

    • elcy says:

      Exactly, Malisha. What DeeDee heard in Trayvon”s voice probably was a mixture of fear, confusion and fatigue. Furthermore, some folks seem to have forgotten that Trayvon had already walked to and from the 7-11 store in the chill and rain before the chase in the gated community even began.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes. GZ supporters often make fun of him being “tired” since he was an athlete, but the truth is, kids his age don’t always have a lot of physical stamina – or maybe they lack the mental stamina to regulate the physical stamina – they move in bursts of energy with lots of downtime in between these bursts of energy.

      • ks says:

        @ Two sides…

        I call that the “young buck” theory which is a racialist meme that suggests that all young AA boys are blessed with supernatural physical abilities. The hardcore racists called it “chimping out”.

        The amount of “debate” that went on about TM being a “football player” even though there’s no indication that he ever played HS football (or anything above youth football) and what that supposedly meant in his struggle with the GZ was ridiculous. Even after it came out that TM was just 5-11 and 158 lbs, the craziness still persisted.

      • MichelleO says:

        @KS: I call that the “young buck” theory which is a racialist meme that suggests that all young AA boys are blessed with supernatural physical abilities. The hardcore racists called it “chimping out”.

        THIS reminds me of a very sad story that took place a few years ago. I knew of this very nice and professional black family that lived in the neighborhood. They were Catholics and sent their son to a Catholic school in which he was the only black child there. This lady was driven to change the style of his haircut so that the teachers there could see that he was just a regular little boy and not a thug they were trying to present him as. That really broke my heart, because this was such a bright and well-mannered boy; but the school kept calling her for all kinds of things that had nothing to do with his work; but him as a person. I couldn’t believe that a Catholic institution would do such a thing or try to drive a family out of their faith or the school. But I saw this happen up close and personal. This lady turned away from her religious community after that. You don’t know what people have to suffer through until you see it with your own eyes.

    • whonoze says:

      @Malisha
      Great posts above (the ‘no one could be a misogynist’ line was brilliant’) but I think here you’re infantalizing Trayvon.

      Any adolescent male who plays tackle football has a certain minimum level of physical fitness and mental toughness. We know he’d done a little playful boxing under adult supervision, and he probably was headed for the Air Force to get training in the aviation work that interested him.

      Given the amount of ground he likely covered, a typical 17 year old would have been a little winded, enough to be audible, but hardly so gassed he could not have run again.

      When GZ showed up behind TM again, he seems to have been more annoyed than scared. He tells DeeDee in effect: ‘This is my Dad’s neighborhood, I shouldn’t have to run here, so I’m not going to.’ He let’s GZ catch up to him (again, pretty much ANY 17 year old in decent shape could keep GZ from catching him), looks him in the eye man-to-man and says, “Why are you following me?”

      I grew up in a lilly-white but non-WASPy suburb of Minneapolis – very middle-America regular folk – and I would guess maybe 80% of the young men would have reacted to that situation this way.

      Another way of saying it: if you act like a scaredy cat or a deer in headlights with one stocky fart following you on your own turf, how you gonna make it through the halls of your high school from home room to phy ed class?

      • Malisha says:

        But Trayvon had no PROBLEMS with being bullied or getting into fights in his high school or in phys ed class. He WAS scared to death of Zimmerman — the sound of those screams shows that. I think it is probable that Zimmerman had his gun out very early in the encounter and was both interrogating Trayvon and terrorizing him. I’m not “infantalizing” him because none of us knows how we would react in a situation like that. We also have no clear idea of (a) what Zimmerman’s demeanor was at the time; remember, a co-worker who worked those “private parties” with him described him as a Jekyl/Hyde who could be damn scary; (b) whether Taaffe or Osterman was out there in a white shirt HELPING George subdue “the suspect” and bring him in; and/or (c) what george actually said and actually did.

        We don’t know much about Trayvon Martin; we don’t know much about what happened that night. But I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think that Martin lost his bearings at some point between “Why are you following me for? [sic]” and “ow ow.”

    • Xena says:

      Trayvon (thinking). This car looks like it’s following me. I’ll get out of the rain — see if it keeps going. No. I really think he’s waiting on me to make a move. Does he think he knows me? Do I know him? Does he think I’m out looking to score drugs? Well, maybe he just pulled over to use his phone.

      Okay. He’s facing that way so I’ll walk in the other direction. Fool just made a u-turn. I should run. Yeah. I’ll run where he can’t drive.

      Man, it’s dark out here. I hope I didn’t run the wrong way. Naw, I can see the street ahead. Whew. I can take a breath now. Just have to get to the front of the house.

      What? Now I see him again. Is he looking for an address? Was he lost before? I’ll start walking. No. He’s still coming in my direction. Why are you following me?

      • whonoze says:

        Actually, we don’t know why the screams sound the way they do. Trayvon COULD have been scared to death That’s what I thought when I heard them. But other folks hear physical pain, not mental anguish. Listening to the recording many times, hearing the envelopes of the screams (they start loud and trail, rather than build up) and the timing between them, I’m now leaning to the pain hypothesis, especially since GZ says he ‘lost wrist control’ which means if he HAD wrist control, he would have been subjecting TM to some very painful ninja grip no doubt taught him by Air Marshall Osterman who absolutely has to know how to do stuff like that since you don’t go shooting guns on airplanes.

        It makes a lot more sense to me that GZ was sadistically applying pain to TM in an attempt to get the kid to holler uncle and submit, which TM refused to do out of a mixture of fear, defiance, instinct for self preservation, panic… than to imagine TM went all to jelly when GZ pulled a gun. Again, I’m not trying to say definitively he didn’t or wouldn’t have, just that it seems less probable. I mean I’m a total wuss myself, and I’m sure if someone pointed a gun at me I’d pee in my pants, but I’d probably be trying to talk the gun holder down, however stutteringly….

        I mean, it’s murder 2 either way. I think the speculation that GZ had his gun drawn before the confrontation is kind of silly. Trayvon obviously looked back to see Z following him, and he turned to ask why he was being followed. If GZ has gun in hand, TM doesn’t do that, he runs like hell. (And again, he doesn’t have to be Usain Bolt to get away from GZ. I was the slowest kid in my high school gym class, but i could have outrun GZ…) So the gun came out sometime after the wrestling began. W18, the most thorough and credible eyewitness, describes GZ and TM as ‘wrestling’ right up until the gunshot.

        So my best guess is that as TM refused to comply while being placed in GZs wrist lock, GZ became both angrier and more paniced himself. When TM finally broke his hand free, it may have just accidentally grazed GZ’s side in the general direction of the holster. In a split second about a half-dozen thoughts go through GZ’s mind – basically every thing any of us have speculated: I can’t let the asshole get away, what if he gets the gun and turns it on me, what is he gonna tell the cops… He doesn’t really have time to answer any of these questions, because his brain is a cocked pistol of gun-nut NRA fantasies with a hair trigger, so just feeling the questions fires the learned neural response to just pull the weapon and shoot to kill.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I don’t know why, but I get the impression that GZ just pulled the gun, aimed and fired. No warning, no display! People don’t scream and holler at gunpoint. They scream and holler in pain.

          I think the fact that the screams go right up to the shot, means TM never even saw the gun.

        • Patricia says:

          @ WhoNoze

          I wish I could give proper credit to the student who originally offered this insight, and I apologize for not being able to do so, but consider this: Trayvon’s long, drawn-out “No-o-o-o-o” is not “NO” — it’s “KNOW.”

          Trayvon’s “Why you following me for?” gets a rough response from Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?” then DeeDee hears Trayvon saying “Get off, get off!” and then the connection is lost.

          I can see Zimmerman grabbing the front of Trayvon’s shirt as he makes his demand; they are thrown off balance and fall. Maybe Trayvon reached out, punched out to Zimmerman, trying to keep Z’s hands off him – this is a “creepy” older guy to Trayvon, remember.

          They struggle on the ground, and Zimmerman, still stupidly and aggressively self-righteous in his wanna-be cop/NW role, keeps demanding to know why Trayvon is “here.” (Neighbors heard a stronger, more demading voice, and a weaker one.)

          Trayvon tries to answer: “I’m staying here.”

          Zimmerman demands, “Where?”

          Trayvon answers, “With Brandi.”

          Zimmerman has no clue who “Brandi” is, asks “Who’s Brandi?”

          Trayvon replies, “Mrs. Green.”

          Despite his claims that he knows all the RATL residents, that’s far from true. “Mrs. Green” is a stranger to him. Zimmerman is getting more pissed.

          Zimmerman demands, “What’s the address?” (Z would have “addresses” in his mind after the NEN311 call just minutes earlier.)

          Trayvon answers, “I don’t know.”

          Zimmerman, deciding the kid, as a potential burglar, is lying to him, applies the wristlock and the excruciating pain, demands, TELL ME!” He wants the confession so he can turn over the suspect when the cops arrive – shortly.

          “I don’t KN-O-O-O-W!!!” screams Trayvon.

          It is NOT that TRayvon was being defiant. He’s trapped in a situation for which he is NOT prepared. Now excruciating pain is applied because he CANNOT supply the answer.

          (WhoNoze, could you estimate the time for the above verbal exchange? There would be no pauses.)

          Note – the next-to-last on-the-ground position they were in (per W#6), with Trayvon on top trying to keep Zimmerman’s hands off him, is an ideal position for Zimmerman, with any kind of training, and with their hands slick from the wet grass (and sweat, from the tension) to suddenly shift his hand to get a painful wristlock on Trayvon.

          Then there’s the final rollover: Zimmerman mounts Trayvon, grabs his shirts for control, draws the Kel-Tec, moves his right fist away from direct center of Trayvon’s chest, taunts Trayvon with the muzzle of the gun in his face, snarls “Tonight you die, mother-fucker,” takes aim … then fires.

          The final “No-o-o-o-o” is when Trayvon sees the barrel of the gun.

          He doesn’t want Zimmerman to shoot him.

          Zimmerman does.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The idea of pain came from someone here who either had knowledge or read something. I read a martial arts site (which I posted to my blog) where they make good sense. They say that when someone catches someone they’ve been chasing, they usually grapple and fall to the ground. They then roll around a bit as one tries to gain the superior position on top.

            As far as their analysis of the screaming, it’s pain. They say that yelling/screaming and fighting are two different things. One who is fighting concentrates on that, to the exclusion of everything else.
            One only starts screaming or yelling when they’ve ceased fighting.

            You don’t yell or scream at gunpoint! Because you don’t want to further disturb your attacker. So that makes sense to me. There would be no point in screaming at gunpoint, unless you had a death wish. So, because the screams continue until the shot, that kinda means that TM never saw the gun at all. It’s a small gun that’s easy to conceal, it’s just barely larger than GZ’s hand. Drawn from a holster that’s at waist level, it would be hard to see with the loose clothing around. GZ could easily draw it, pull on TM’s clothing and take the shot, without TM even knowing what GZ was doing. Because he doesn’t see the fatal threat, TM continues to cry out for help. GZ pulls the trigger and cuts the calls short.

            Look in the “Dueling Videos” post which should be up top, you’ll see the karate demo video, click on the read more.
            http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie and WhoNoze –

            None of what I write will relate to the verdict – as we see it – because Zimmerman had Trayvon under control, aimed and shot him. But we are always trying to “connect the dots” and understand what happened.

            Either Trayvon’s last cries were caused by pain or fear.

            Pain would be exerted by Zimmerman’s hand, or possibly Zimmerman’s knee(s) kneeling on Trayvon’s arms.

            When Zimmerman decided to draw his gun, his left (dominant) hand clutched Trayvon’s shirts to control him, and his right hand reached for the gun, aimed and fired. So there were no HANDS available to cause pain. But there could be that knee pressure.

            Zimmerman quoted Trayvon as threatening him with death. What we have seen with Zimmerman are “mirror image lies.”

            I am sure that Zimmerman DID place his hands on Trayvon’s mouth to shut him up early on in the scramble. I need to ask WhoNoze if there was a break in the screaming on the 911 call (although parts are redacted when names and addresses are disclosed – so we are at a loss for those moments.)

            I see absolutely no circumstance under which Trayvon could threaten Zimmerman with death, and the phrasing, “Tonight you’re gonna die, mother-fucker!” does not fit his personality.

            Therefore, it’s cllear to me that this was what Zimmerman said as his final words to Trayvon. He finally had control over Travon, it had been a lot of trouble for GZ to get get control, he was a mess, and he was pissed at Trayvon because Zimmerman blamed it all on “the suspect.”

            There have been comments that the tone of the screams changed – that there was “NO” or “I don’t KNOW” earlier before the shot – but that the final scream had a different pitch – of desperate fear. I need WhoNoze’s comment on that.

            I do acknowledge that the Kel-Tek is small, and the night was dark. But Zimmerman has shown a sadistic streak in his past, and saying “You’re gonna die tonight, etc.” would be when he shoved the barrel in front of Trayvon’s face, before moving it down to is torso.

            I am giving strong consideration to your theory, Lonnie, that, in the face of a gun, you’d remain silent, for fear of precipitating the shot. But Trayvon had been screaming for 40 seconds, so I’m thinking that the screams could quite possibly escalate.

            So — to help my mind sort through this, WhoNoze — were there two variants of screams over the 40 seconds? Was the last scream more desperate than earlier? Did you hear breaks in the screams? What words were audible?

            Lonnie, is there some application for “You’re gonna die tonight, etc.” uttered by Zimmerman, other than after he drew his gun? Zimmerman didn’t invent these B-movie klunkers without having some basis of fact. I’m trying to see where this fits in. Trayvon would NOT say that. Who said it (well, Zimmerman) and when did he say it?

            The only way I see Zimmerman being able to apply physical pain right at the end (after he drew his gun, thus both hands were occupied) would be Zimmerman’s knee(s) on Travon’s arm(s). Trayvon’s lung capacity and diaphragm would remain unimpeded. Zimmerman thus would not have grass stains on one or both knees of his levis.

            Trayvon did cease screaming when the shot was fired.

            Looking to both of you for help, and any student who wants to chime in. Thanks!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            From what I know from experience in seeing fights where people are put in painful holds or injured and scream or yell. They tend to keep yelling and screaming for some time, even after being released.

            Assuming TM knew what a gun was and had an idea of what it could do, it would be positively terrifying to see one appear in the hands of his attacker. Even in pain he’d stop screaming immediately, since the gun presents a much bigger, life and death, problem that holds and threats of injury do not.

            “You’re going to die tonight”, seems to be GZ thinking out loud.
            Where, it seems to me that, up til now he’s been temporizing with questions, while thinking of what his own position will really be when the police arrive to see he’s captured “this thug”. GZ, is hearing the nuances in TM’s childlike voice, his fearful manner, and immediately assesses that he’ll appear to be just a harmless kid to the police, if he’s questioned. If he also actually does live somewhere nearby, the GZ realizes his story is not going to sell.
            He arrives at this conclusion in little more than an instant, and the decision pops into his mind and he verbalizes it, “You’re gonna die tonight”. Sometime after he pulls the trigger, he realizes he may have verbalized this idea and so, to protect himself from a possible witness observation, he attributes it to TM.

            Witnesses had been coming out and going back in, so GZ would realize he didn’t have much time at all on his hands, but this act, he decided needed to be done, had to be done very quickly, or not at all. So, he pulls the gun and takes it straight from his waist band, around to aim and shoot, while pulling his other hand out of the way, probably because it’s over TM’s heart, where he intends a “sure kill shot” needs to be placed. TM keeps screaming because he never sees the gun. The statement, absent the gun, seems just so much just another vicious threat to TM.

            Needless to say I’m just speculating here, using, or rather attempting to use my own impressions. Obviously there’s no way to know what or how much, if any of it, will be confirmed or refuted. I just think that speculations give a framework to work around temporarily. Sometimes within such speculative frameworks a lead may emerge.

  12. Malisha says:

    Mark O’Mara also appoints himself (although obviously there is conflict here) as the social commentator on what the George Zimmerman case is about. First of all, he can comment on what the George Zimmerman case (is his client guilty or not guilty) is about; but he cannot comment on what the Trayvon Martin case (why wasn’t Trayvon Martin’s killer arrested when he killed the unarmed kid?) is about.

    Anyway, with magnificent white-man hubris, O’Mara says:
    “George Zimmerman’s lawyer: Plight of young black men isn’t the issue”

    Not for you it isn’t, Mark. But for young black men, their families, and the society in which they live and TRY TO KEEP LIVING, it surely is. It is SURELY the case that the plight of young black men is the issue if, when they are stalked by armed angry mentally unstable white men with dominance/submission issues, they are not allowed to defend themselves because self-defense, for them, is equivalent to being identified as a thug whom any angry, mentally unstable white man with dominance/submission issues then acquires the automatic RIGHT TO KILL.

    So either shut up about social philosophy or study the opposing briefs. WADR.

    • TM says:

      Malisha, you put the written word to many of my thoughts and I appreciate reading these comments

      • Malisha says:

        TM — thanks a million, what a wonderful compliment! I am a writer and when it appears that I can “get over” it thrills me. 🙂

        • jm says:

          You are a great writer, making logical points and with humor. Do you spend a lot of time creating your posts or is it a natural talent and wit that comes easily?

    • jm says:

      It sounds as though MOM is desperate and grasping at straws.. Maybe O’Mara should keep his mouth shut in general rather than say things that make him look stupid and/or foolish.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree and also admire your articulate nature, Malisha! You express yourself beautifully.

      We can expect MO to try to isolate the GZ case from other issues such as “the plight of young black men” and gun violence / gun control (it’s his job as a defense attorney to do so, although that is usually done in court and not pre-trial in the media), but the truth is, these two issues are both inextricably linked.

  13. Malisha says:

    Today’s STUPID PRIZE goes to the idea that George Zimmerman “cannot be a racist because his great great grandfather was Black.”
    http://www.businessinsider.com/lawyer-george-zimmerman-isnt-racist-2012-10

    Under this theory, Hitler could not be an anti-semite and

    get this:

    NOBODY COULD BE A MISOGYNIST! :mrgreen:

    • SearchingMind says:

      Good point, Melisha. Unconfirmed historic record has it that Adolf H.’s grand mom/dad was jewish. Yet Adolf H. is responsible for the worst crime against humanity ever known to man: the industrial extermination of the Jews, otherwise known as the Holocaust.

      • Malisha says:

        Even if Hitler had no Jewish ancester, he actually seems to have BELIEVED that his “blood was tainted” by some Jew before he was born. Although it is obviously one of those paranoid obsessive delusions that folks like Hitler come by from time to time, the point is simply that the FACT of biological ANCESTRY or intrafamilial genetics has no effect on the H.Q. (a phrase I coined, the “Hatred Quotient”) of any particular hostile human being.

    • jm says:

      “To prove his point, O’Mara pointed out that Zimmerman’s great-grandfather is black, so Zimmerman has to be a non-racist.”

      Seriously, has MOM lost his mind with that logic? Is he in over his head with the Zimmerman case?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        This is the result of MOM hanging out with the “low information crowd” too long, in hopes of reigniting their charity. He’s attempting to use a reverse of white racist views that any black blood equals a black person. His logic is getting seriously screwed up by his efforts to make connections with them. In trying to make it appear he has joined them in some logical way, he’s adopting their mode of “logical thinking” which isn’t logical at all.

        That’s bad news for GZ, since MOM will, undoubtedly find this creeping into his methodology at trial.

        How foolish to say that GZ should not be viewed as a racist at all, because there’s no evidence to support it. What does he think the NEN and 911 calls GZ made over time, show? See all those White, Hispanics and Asian kids he didn’t know, who he’s reported for wandering around for reasons he could not figure out?
        Were they included in his remark “They always get away?”

        Didn’t GZ say that he knew TM was unarmed? So, why did GZ chase him with that gun he always carries? “Going in the same direction” as someone you’ve been following, is a distinction without a difference! Most especially when you have no good reason for going in the same direction they did.

        We know GZ’s story about getting an address, but since there was an address right there in front of him, near his truck, there was no reason for him to make the useless trip over to RVC! That is, except to continue to follow TM. The rest of the evidence shows us that, that is exactly what you wanted to do, despite your refusal to tell the truth about it. GZ you are toast!

        • jm says:

          “This is the result of MOM hanging out with the “low information crowd” too long, in hopes of reigniting their charity. He’s attempting to use a reverse of white racist views that any black blood equals a black person. His logic is getting seriously screwed up by his efforts to make connections with them. In trying to make it appear he has joined them in some logical way, he’s adopting their mode of “logical thinking” which isn’t logical at all.”

          So is MOM driven by greed, hoping for more defense money contributions? Wouldn’t MOM be better off not giving statements at all rather than sound as illogical and “confused” as GZ?

          I really don’t like O’Mara and I now question whose idea it really was to have GZ appear on Hannity. It was obviously a horrible decision. MOM says it was Zimmerman who wanted to do the interview, but did O’Mara go along with it, hoping to get more defense donations from the interview? Maybe I am biased but listening and watching Zimmerman, I drew the conclusion he is mentally unbalanced. Does MOM not notice GZ’s problems or is it just me who thinks it is obvious GZ has issues beyond ADHD and/or depression?

          Still hoping to hear from someone who knows more about the law and judicial system to see what will happen to MOM, if anything, after the GZ prison phone calls when he said MOM knew about the Paypal money. Is this insignificant at this point since Judge Lester is gone?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I think MOM has given up on offering any rational view of the case, thus, his only hope is that donations come in, sufficient to make his time worthwhile. Even before that interview, GZ had made the case a no win. All MOM can do is go along for the ride from here.

            As far as MOM knowing about GZ’s funds, we have only GZ word for it at the jail, that doesn’t mean, and/or isn’t proof positive that MOM knew about it. GZ may just be saying that to quiet someone’s fears/trepidations, without it actually being true.

      • ks says:

        @jm,

        What’s amazing to me is when I saw the “logic” adopted by folks (e.g. Talkleft) who should know better. GZ’s great grandfather was a dark skinned Peruvian man. While he may have had African heritage, there’s no evidence that he considered himself or was considered Black. Certainly not in the sense that MOM and Co. is trying to pass off.

        What’s even more bizarre is that we are supposed to assume that this very distant “fact” means that GZ is not a racist but ignore what other direct and recent actions says about him (e.g. molestation claim, arrests, inability to keep a job and workplace issues, attempting to scam the court during the first bail hearing and so on.)

        • jm says:

          “What’s even more bizarre is that we are supposed to assume that this very distant “fact” means that GZ is not a racist but ignore what other direct and recent actions says about him ”

          If GZ’s black great-grandfather was walking through GZ’s neighborhood with a hoodie on, would GZ have referred to him as a suspicious effing punk and an azzhole and called the police to report him?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            On my Zimmerman blog there’s a video and link to some martial artists who need to be introduced to the treehouse, lol, My guess is they’d give them a real run for the money, these guys are pretty darned spunky. They believe that TM’s hoodie should have rose up over his head, so that if he was on top, they would have seen his hoodie. One of them says he owns the same kind of hoodie and his always works itself up over his head if he moves vigorously.

            I’ve had hoodies like that, every once in a while you have to reach up and put it down, only to have it climb back up again.

      • jm says:

        Lonnie says: “I think MOM has given up on offering any rational view of the case, thus, his only hope is that donations come in, sufficient to make his time worthwhile. Even before that interview, GZ had made the case a no win. All MOM can do is go along for the ride from here.”

        Isn’t this unethical of MOM just to go along for the money ride? In particular, I am wondering about the wisdom of GZ’s attorney allowing him to go on Hannity. (I understood this interview was to in hopes of raising defense funds.) If you can’t control your client, shouldn’t you resign? If you have to resort to no-sense “logic” to keep those defense funds coming in, is it ethical to stay on the case? I really don’t know the answers from an ethical/legal standpoint but MOM is looking sleazy right now, all things considered.

        Lonnie says: “As far as MOM knowing about GZ’s funds, we have only GZ word for it at the jail, that doesn’t mean, and/or isn’t proof positive that MOM knew about it. GZ may just be saying that to quiet someone’s fears/trepidations, without it actually being true.”

        So in essence, MOM is calling his client a liar in a back-handed way? LOL. I vaguely remember when confronted about his knowledge of the Paypal funds, MOM said he didn’t remember hearing about the Paypal money. Sounds like he learned how to dodge direction questions with forgetfulness excuse just like his client, GZ.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Actually, I think GZ would keep MOM out of the loop, because MOM would have had to get the court to take control of the account, if he was to get paid from it. Meanwhile at that time MOM was pro bono, as such he’d have no interest in the money. He’d have had to stand and watch as it disappeared down the rat hole, if he knew and kept his mouth shut. I really can’t see him doing that.

          GZ could have mentioned the paypal account and said that it had only a paltry few dollars in it. MOM would have reason to believe that, because of the many debts GZ had. Then beyond asking GZ to get a statement to him later, the matter could easily be forgotten.
          After all, it’s not like they didn’t have a lot of other stuff to discuss.

          • jm says:

            Lonnie: “GZ could have mentioned the paypal account and said that it had only a paltry few dollars in it. MOM would have reason to believe that, because of the many debts GZ had. Then beyond asking GZ to get a statement to him later, the matter could easily be forgotten.”

            Lonnie, If my memory serves me correctly in the recorded prison phone call to a male friend or relative (Ken?) GZ told him that MOM was aware of $37,000. That’s pretty important info because MOM was trying to get a low bond by saying Zimmerman was indigent and the fund was designated as trying to raise money for defense (MOM). If it was forgotten, that’s another stupid move on MOM’s part. If it is a GZ lie, further undermining his client’s credibility. I find it difficult to understand why GZ would lie to his male friend/relative about MOM knowing about the money.

            The Paypal matter should not have been forgotten by MOM given he was saying Zimmerman was indigent and the funds in the defense Paypal account should have been a primary subject of conversation. It would seem it would be of primary interest for GZ’s defense attorney to know how much money was being raised for defense (MOM).

            In any case, “forgetfulness” seems to be a convenient dodge for both GZ and MOM.

            In my unprofessional opinion, it makes MOM look shady and/or incompetent.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            People, even lawyers get lazy. MOM had a lot of other stuff to talk about and do, so the mere mention of a paypal account wouldn’t figure big with a non e-savvy lawyer like MOM. GZ had all these debts and did not appear to have any money. At least he didn’t show up in a 1,000 suit with diamonds etc., no visible signs of any access to money. MOM would just take him at his word after warning him not to lie.

            In any event, I just don’t see them spending a whole lot of time on the issue. In fact, I don’t really see any advantage of GZ making any mention to MOM at all, for fear that MOM might get all the money put into the courts hands, freeze the accounts before GZ could move the money around.

            GZ knew there was money there and he wanted to keep it all, that means he had to keep it secret from any and all “outsiders” like his own attorney. I just don’t believe we can believe anything GZ says!
            This is GZ’s word against MOM’s, I don’t see a contest.

          • jm says:

            Lonnie: “People, even lawyers get lazy.”

            I don’t make anywhere close to $400 an hour and if I get lazy and “forget” something important in my line of work I would be fired. Maybe I expected more from MOM, but as time goes on, I expect less from him and do think he is incompetent and in it for the money, which makes me question MOM’s overall ethics.

            Lonnie: “GZ knew there was money there and he wanted to keep it all, that means he had to keep it secret from any and all “outsiders” like his own attorney. I just don’t believe we can believe anything GZ says! This is GZ’s word against MOM’s, I don’t see a contest.”

            I get what you are saying about GZ wanting to keep all the money, but what I don’t get is why GZ mentioned to his male friend/relative on recorded prison phone call that he told MOM about the money. I guess I am expecting too much in a major criminal case and from an attorney who is making $400 an hour? I really don’t care who is lying, GZ or MOM, it just makes me question the legal system and whether GZ is going to walk based on someone overlooking a fact that is relevant or excuse a lie that would make a person’s character come into question. So if GZ lied to friend/family member about MOM knowing about the money for whatever reason, that is brushed aside and not relevant to GZ character and credibility?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            If someone, behind bars and speaking in codes, asks you to move some large amount of money, one might wonder if the court has anything to say about it. Thus, GZ’s remark that his lawyer knew and/or approved, would be just the lie to settle the nerves.

      • Malisha says:

        O’Mara has said a series of idiotic things already; maybe he is practicing up to run for office after the case is over.

        Examples:

        1. I think my client was reacting to having his nose broken and he reacted by yelling for help;

        2. This is not about the plight of young black males in America;

        3. We don’t accept any money from racists;

        4. George can’t be a racist because he had a great-great-grandfather who was Black. (By the way, that cannot be proven without DNA testing; perhaps a Black man did marry george’s great-great-grandmother, but paternity is not necessarily established by birth records ahem ahem…)

        I’m waiting for him to comment on 47% of the jury pool —–

    • Two sides to a story says:

      You’re absolutely right, Malisha. Racism is far more complex than this and is displayed in many different ways.

      • Xena says:

        @Malisha.

        4. George can’t be a racist because he had a great-great-grandfather who was Black.

        IMO, MOM fails to understand the history of race in America, and how people pre-judge by what they see. Take his logic and apply it, for instance, to people just before and after the Civil War whose grandfathers, great grandfathers, or great-great grandfathers were White. Would MOM say that they could not be distrustful of Whites because of their racial mixture?

        Those hawking that GZ cannot be racist because of Blacks on his maternal side are the same people who argue that President Obama is racist, although his mother was White. What do they see? The color of skin.

        • jm says:

          “MOM fails to understand the history of race in America, and how people pre-judge by what they see.”

          Do you really think MOM is that stupid? Seriously?

          To me It’s simple common sense based on life experiences to understand the history of race in this country and how people prejudge by what they see – for example his client, GZ, prejudged a black male teen in his neighborhood without knowing anything about the kid.

      • Xena says:

        @jm

        “MOM fails to understand the history of race in America, and how people pre-judge by what they see.”

        Do you really think MOM is that stupid? Seriously?

        Yes, JM, I really do. MOM is an attorney who concentrates in criminal and family law. He is not a constitutional or civil rights lawyer. What he may have learned in law school about civil rights applied the law for redress of grievances in areas such as employment and housing, but not actual everyday experiences and certainly not the history of race in America.

  14. Malisha says:

    Something occurs to me. George Zimmerman is the Frankenstein that the Sanford Police Department in general, and Bill Lee (and Mark Osterman) in particular, created. He’s not even an original. If an ordinary citizen starts to act up in ways that the law actually has provided for, but you do not use that law the way it needs to be used, and instead, you bend the law so that a particular citizen can be EXEMPT from it, you are creating something, not in the law, but in the citizen. Now I do not know what particular police personnel were or could have been involved in (a) helping George get away with his assault on an ATF officer; (b) helping George get away with his domestic violence problems; and/or (c) using George to help get rid of the former chief of police and get Bill Lee promoted and installed instead; and (d) helping George set up NW in his own image so he could promote HIMSELF, but whoever it was, they helped George escape the consequences of his action, helped him redefine the reality of the already deficient Florida laws, and helped him place himself, and then nearly find himself, above the law altogether. When that happened, THEY were complicit in creating the problem that (a) they now have and that (b) killed an innocent kid.

    When government enters into a private citizen’s unlawful fantasy with him, either to placate him if he’s nuts, or in a corrupt way, if they WANT to do what he wants them to do, then they create someone who has an easy path to either coerce some officials to do more and more wrongful things in office (because now he has something on THEM) or he has a method that he has learned to coerce some officials to do more and more wrongful things in office (because they have learned to cave in to him). I had an ex-husband who was both crazy and corrupt. He got some government officials to do what he wanted by the sheer force of his wacky pestiferousness; others he got to do what he wanted because they just loved the way he “went after” a woman he hated, which gave them a “secret thrill.” Either way, he got them into positions where they had to get more and more of their own colleagues and even their superiors to cover for what they had done until he created a cabal of government officials doing wrong and they went beyond all bounds. Finally, now, after 30 years, I have written evidence that will hurt two of them — and it’s not even the most important or most significant two, but I’m going to use it. And these two hapless idiots (for whom I have no sympathy because they did plenty to hurt and rob me) will fall because an Assistant US Attorney is interested in the bizarre mess created by their Frankenstein.

    In the Zimmerman case, Bill Lee has fallen because of the circle of corruption they built around George Zimmerman. I predict more will follow. It seems to me that Patty Mahany is probably on the list.

  15. TM says:

    It is interesting when there is so much discussion regarding mental illness and how people behave when people who swear they do not have any mental illness can and often are destructive and attack out of sheer will and desire to do harm to other people, especially some they have no contact with whatsoever. What can we attribute such behavior too in such instances. Stress maybe, must have their way, pleasure in making someone else squirm, jealousy, all the issues that are considered normal can be as deathly oriented as one who may act because of diagnosed mental problems. How about bullying and the effects of it pushing sensitive people to suicide or some other means of self destruction because they feel they can never be worthy of having a friend or of being understood? What is normal?

  16. TM says:

    I agree that Zimmerman will use some excuse as to his state of mind for his defense. What else is there? He will be presented
    by O’Mara as one who actually believes the lies he has stated.
    His detatchment from reality.

  17. Vicky says:

    FYI, individuals with ADHD are more than capable of living successful lives, and I don’t like the idea that GZ’s diagnosis seems to have created such a negative impression of the disorder. So, I thought I would share a list of some famous people who have/had ADHD.. Frank Lloyd Wright, Samuel Clemmens, Pablo Picasso, Terri Bradshaw, Emily Dickinson, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Mozart, Andrew Carnegie, Malcolm Forbes, ann Bancroft, Ansel Adams, John F. Kennedy, Robin Williams, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein. There are many more, and some of those I have mentioned live(d) with coexisting disorders. A quick google search will identify hundreds of famous people with mental health challenges.
    Mental illness can often explain behaviors, but it does not excuse the actions of most individuals, unless of course they are living with a disorder that causes them to lose touch with reality. Unfortunately, for those individuals, medication management is often as challenging as the illness itself. However, a very small percentage of individuals with any SPMI become violent or bring harm to anyone but themselves.
    The negative stigma associated with mental illness comes from over exaggerated reactions when a few people with mental illness make the front page news following a tragic incident. The majority of individuals with mental illness successfully manage their disability through medication, case management, peer/family support, and/or cognitive behavioral therapy. It is more likely than not, that each of us knows someone with some form of mental illness or has been diagnosed with a mental illness. I have worked with the SED and SPMI population for twenty years and can count on one hand the number who have physically harmed another person. Unfortunately, the number who have self harmed or completed the act of suicide is far greater.
    When people identify the “side effects” of medications used to treat mental illness in a negative light or without fully understanding the numbers of people who successfully use those medications, we are misusing that information. The knowledge that certain side effects might occur is intended to assist medical professionals, patients and family members with identifying the onset of side effects so that adjustments or changes in medication can be made.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think some of the above is what pharmaceutical companies want you to believe. Actual patients will tell you of the real struggles and going up and down with these drugs. These have a useful role to play in treatment, but they are not perfect or infallible and they do cause problems at times, and as you mention, there are constant adjustment and readjustments that can be extremely frustrating.

      My kids used to report feeling numbed out, or feeling as if they’re going up and down or in and out with a tide on the cocktails prescribed, not only to treat the condition but to counteract the other drugs – uppers to calm and make you more alert, downers to help you sleep, etc. etc. It’s a multi-billion dollar business extravaganza.

      • princss6 says:

        My kid also has an ADD diagnosis. He would never harm a fly and as such I in no way generalize GZ’s behavior to anyone other than GZ. There is either more than ADD going on with him or he doesn’t have ADD at all. Having said that, we dropped the meds after a few months and I put him a democratic free school. Yes, he is disorganized and has hard time focusing on school work but he is brilliant. He is just fine and beautiful and complete and although we didn’t deal with the meds for very long, I do sympathize with your struggle with your children and all children who are medicated.

    • Jun says:

      I think Zimmerman is using that as backup for an insanity plea. His constant I dont know’s are also basis for him to be considered unsuitable for witness, which I think his act is for.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think it’s an act. People with ADD / ADHD often do have memory issues.

      • jm says:

        @ Jun I think GZ’s I don’t know or I forgot are his way of not committing to an answer that may not back up his account of self-defense/SYG. GZ is manipulative and with a little coaching from Papa Zimmerman and Osterman, he dodges questions with I don’t know or I don’t remember. Just my nonprofessional opinion of GZ.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well… You don’t have to take my word for it, just go back and look through the interviews, reenactment and other places where GZ is questioned, and look a the questions asked that he claims not to know or has forgotten the answers to.

          When he’s ask why he doesn’t know only one of the street names, of the three streets in the neighborhood he’s patrolled for 6 months, his answer: ” I have ADHD, I forget”.

          He doesn’t remember he has the gun he always carries, until after TM reaches for it. Oh, and before I forget, TTL is the street that connects his favorite back gate, to the front gate. He uses that street every day, and it’s the street he worries about suspects escaping on.

      • Malisha says:

        The “I forgot the name of the street” was an act. Then when it became obvious that wouldn’t work we heard, “I can’t remember because I have ADHD.” The whole thing was made up to supply a reason (other than “I was following the suspect”) for his trip la-di-da around the neighborhood. The issue is a non-issue. Cops have GPS and they have MAPS. They can look at their screens and see the street names; they don’t need george to expose himself to grave danger by thugs just to get a street name. Patty Mahany could have told them that; Sanford is a very civilized, advanced city — in spite of it having been “invaded.”

      • Xena says:

        The “I forgot the name of the street” was an act. Then when it became obvious that wouldn’t work we heard, “I can’t remember because I have ADHD.”

        In his 2/29 interview with Serino and Singleton, as they played the NEN tape for GZ, they asked where he physically was at different points of his call. GZ said that when the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that” that he was on RTC. When asked where he was when he gave Sean directions, he said that he was walking back from RTC.

        Now, look at his reason for going to RTC — to get a house number. According to GZ, he was still on the phone with dispatch when he did that. Rather than give Sean the house number on RTC, GZ began walking back to his truck and then wanted the cop to call him for his location.

        GZ’s inconsistencies are because of his misrepresentations. No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar.

      • Rachael says:

        ADD/ADHD cannot be used as an insanity defense because it is not a cognitive disorder.

      • Jun says:

        So he is on on Retreat View Circle the whole time?

      • Xena says:

        @Jun

        So he is on on Retreat View Circle the whole time?

        He told Singleton and Serino that when the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that” that he was on RVC. Yes.

        When he told the dispatcher where the cop would see his truck, he said he had just turned around to walk back to his truck.

        He then said that when he reached the dog path that he went down it. Then he caught himself and said he passed it and was at the T when Trayvon jumped out at him.

        Of course, GZ’s timing is off. If it happened like he said, he would have had the house address on RTC when he was talking to Sean, and the altercation would have started before he ended his NEN call.

      • Xena says:

        @Two

        I don’t think it’s an act. People with ADD / ADHD often do have memory issues.

        While that is true, GZ’s memory issue regarding the street he was on was because he was distracted. Note: After GZ gave directions to where he was parked was when Sean asked “What address are you parked in front of?”

        Thus, GZ’s entire story of looking for a house number on RTC where he wasn’t parked, actually says where his mind was going. IOWs, GZ heard Trayvon’s phone ring, or Trayvon’s voice, and was gathering his route (in his thoughts) to RTC to cut Trayvon off.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You can’t tell from just listening to GZ whether or not he’s telling the truth. You have to put what he says on a timeline, to see if it’s even possible. Many of the things GZ has said, are already known to be lies, because the timeline it creates doesn’t support it.
          Then, as you correct for one lie, another one is revealed.

          GZ is the only one here who gets to tell his story in full. Trayvon’s story has to be deduced from whatever evidence can be found. So, it’s not a contest between equals. If GZ did something wrong, he can simply refuse to remember it or tell another lie and move on.
          GZ get’s to explain what he was thinking and what he feared, we have to guess what TM feared and/or would have been thinking.

  18. TM says:

    Strange you should mention bullying Vicky. LOL! Good girl! Seems it always happens to people by people who have no idea who they are bullying and I’ve been wondering if there might be a time when it wasn’t considered fun, for some people. Hurrah! for October!

  19. Vicky says:

    Someone mentioned bullying in an earlier comment. So, I thought I would mention that October is National Bullying Prevention Month.

  20. Malisha says:

    Here’s something I hadn’t seen until now although it’s dated: Sanford City Commissioner Patty Mahany going OFF about the firing of Chief Lee. Note her:

    1- Failure to cite or use any facts;
    2- Emphasis on the way she personally feels, as if it proves something;
    3- body language (closing her eyes when she says something that doesn’t seem totally true or supportable, for instance, waving her head around in anger, for instance…) and —
    4- a word used by the journalists covering this: her PASSION.

    • jm says:

      Watched several Patty Mahany youtube videos. She’s an idiot spewing self-righteous nonsense.

      • bettykath says:

        No matter what the validity is of your argument, you will probably lose if you add in a good dose of emotion. The emotion is what people relate to, not the argument itself and too much emotion turns people off.

    • Patricia says:

      @Malisha

      Just watched Patty Mahany.

      That’s not passion – that’s venom.

      • Malisha says:

        Agreed. I was calling it passion because (a) a journalist commented to HER that it was passion and she chuckled that “I’m a very important person who can grace the camera” chuckle and agreed; and (b) I meant PASSION for Bill LEE. Ahem, ahem, ahem!! (I just held myself back from observing a resemblance between her and Shellie because I thought it a bit catty of me.)

  21. Malisha says:

    Xena, thanks, very interesting in a quaint kinda way.

    But then again, to quote Shakespeare (from Julius Caesar):

    “The fault lies not within our stars, but in ourselves.”

    • Xena says:

      Malisha, I agree with Shakespeare. Whatever the stars say is not beneficial to us and mankind is what we then have opportunity to change within ourselves. The same things that can be used for good can also be used for evil or for unbeneficial purposes, so we always have a choice. GZ’s stars gave him the tendency to want perfection, but he used evil in effort to rid what he believed was evil. IMO, GZ looked for evil under every rock.

      • Malisha says:

        I believe he looked for evil under every rock. But also, if he turned over a rock and found no evil, he’s smite the rock!

        And that’s what happened.

      • Xena says:

        @Malisha

        I believe he looked for evil under every rock. But also, if he turned over a rock and found no evil, he’s smite the rock!
        And that’s what happened.

        You are so right.
        If you listened to his jailhouse phone calls with ShelLIE, did you pick up on that need to check and double-check that she understood his instructions? There is one call where after talking to Shellie, he asked to talk to Gracie and then instructed Gracie to make sure Shellie did things as he described.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Astrological birth charts are a map of our karmic propensities and potential. As such, these aspects are WITHIN us, not outside of us, and are self-created. I think the interpretations of GZs and TMs charts are very pertinent.

      • Xena says:

        I think the interpretations of GZs and TMs charts are very pertinent.

        What caught my eye is that about 3 astrologers all say the same, or similar things about GZ based on his birth chart. There is one astrologer who believes that GZ’s destiny is to be in isolation, such as jail or a mental hospital. More than one predicts that drug or alcohol addiction will be revealed in the future. None are predicting the outcome of his case, however.

        GZ could have made better choices for his life path.

        Many moons ago, I was told by an astrologer that Pisces was in several of my houses. (Don’t ask, I still don’t understand.) 🙂 But I did pay attention to her warning; i.e., because of Pisces in several of my houses,I should never do anything that is addictive because I would not have the ability to overcome addictions easily.

        Remember the Pong game? I learned my lesson. LOL!

        Just imagine if GZ had been told that his desire for others to be perfect would be better directed in the arts rather than in law enforcement.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Xena –

        I’ve always wondered about GZs proposed career choices. Typically many people with ADD / ADHD and other mood disorders are highly creative and do well in one of the arts or things associated with the arts. It’s a little odd that GZ wanted to be a cop and then a judge – well, not so strange in that his father was a magistrate and that he has LEO friends, but these professions are not necessarily compatible with his limitations. We see by his school records that there’s no way he’s going to be able to get into law school, so his professed desire is not even realistic – this also leads me to believe that GZ has a deeper, undiagnosed problem.

        • jm says:

          ” This also leads me to believe that GZ has a deeper, undiagnosed problem.”

          I believe you are correct. GZ’s behavior on Hannity led me to believe GZ has a much bigger problem than ADHD. Maybe he was misdiagnosed and as GZ behavior pattern evolves as an adult he may be easier to diagnose. I see him as a sociopath after reading up on what constitutes a sociopath diagnosis.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Also, I found that the astrological transits for both GZ and TM for the day of Feb 26 to be very striking – a danger zone for both and this shows the karma at work in this case. TM’s chart showed someone who would possibly die young and GZ someone dealing with deep anger issues (probably projecting anger with self onto others) and as you said, Xena, a future with physical isolation.

        Astrologers do not predict the future, as this is impossible because the future is never fixed and depends upon complex influences, but look instead at these astrological karmic maps to see tendencies and possibilities.

      • cielo62 says:

        And have those charts been drawn up?

      • Xena says:

        @Two sides.

        I’ve always wondered about GZs proposed career choices. Typically many people with ADD / ADHD and other mood disorders are highly creative and do well in one of the arts or things associated with the arts.

        Exactly. Even without ADHD, GZ’s astrological makeup would benefit him to concentrate in the arts. Is it any wonder that the woman he would marry is a cosmetologist?

      • Xena says:

        @ cielo62

        And have those charts been drawn up?

        Upthread is a vid of the charts. What would be more helpful to astrologers is having actual times of birth. They are using a noon time.

        Two sides to a story seems to be much more advanced in this than I am, and might find it interesting that O’Mara’s DOB is 3 days after Trayvon’s although years apart.

  22. Xena says:

    Looks like the conservative treehouse has overstepped their boundaries.

    • Jun says:

      The only reason they havent been sued by Crump and everyone else for spreading slander and libel is that Conservative Treefrog is likely owned and run by a broke loser

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. That could very well be possible. As well, the comments they allow about DeeDee on that site might be construed as witness intimidation.

      • Jun says:

        That is very well true. I am fairly sure that the State has kept watch of that site. But if not, someone should send them over there as thats proof from Z’s backers of slander and harassment and cyberstalking.

    • whonoze says:

      That letter is BS, the photo is newsworthy AND the Treehouse was commenting on it as a photograph, so it’s protected Fair Use. If they couldn’t post that photo, LLMPapa and Trent couldn’t make videos either. It’s an open and shut free speech case.

      But as for the libel, I believe they would lose if any of the people they have defamed brought suit, and I can only assume the victims have not done so because they have determined it’s not worth they’re trouble.

      As for witness intimidation, I would guess the courts would go with a free speech argument as long as the Treepers were doing their thing in their own ‘space’, and not acting in ways that a reasonable person would expect to bring their venom to DeeDee’s attention.

      • Xena says:

        @whonoze. CTH may have problems claiming fair use. For one, what they wrote was a criticism of a Huffington Post article and not the photo itself. Secondly, CTH is not a not-for-profit organization.

  23. Malisha says:

    I don’t know if George does or does not suffer from ADHD; he’s so full of bullshit we don’t even know if he DOES have a diagnosis, do we? But either way, that’s not, in my opinion, the major problem.

    I think he suffers from GVB Syndrome, that is: Garden Variety Bully.

    Oh. On Steroids. (Steroids are named Taaffe, Osterman…)

    • Jun says:

      Well if Zimmerman fights his medical records to not be used, it will be used against him when they say he has no medical records.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t think GZ would be taking the drugs listed in his medical records if he was not diagnosed with ADHD. ADHD somtimes accompanies other mood disorders like bipolar, borderline personality disorder, and so forth. These are not always easy to diagnose and from all appearances, GZ could possibly have one of these as well and be undiagnosed.

      I say this from my long experience around many family members with mood disorders, and from my own experiences with anxiety / depression. Many people with these disorders are otherwise functional and able to get by in jobs and school (though not as well as people w/o these issues) and would appear normal to others who don’t know them well. Check out BPD on Wikipedia and see if you spot some of GZ;s behavior in this description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder .

      This does not mean that all people with ADHD or BPD or bipolar or combinations of these go around making strange decisions with weapons and kill people. Even though a mental health issue may not be brought up in this case, both the ADHD and possibly an associated condition or conditions along with the meds (or perhaps NOT taking them as prescribed or having side effects) are surely a facet of GZs behavior. To ignore this is folly, in my opinion. Just like GZ supporters ignoring the fact that what may be legal is not necessarily ethical or moral . . .

      • princss6 says:

        On the other hand, ADD/ADHD meds are over prescribed and I can see his family shopping for a more acceptable diagnosis than the issues that I believe really ail him. And it isn’t unheard of for ADD/ADHD to present with other illnesses and that illness seems to be the go to illness for boys. So IMO, he is misdiagnosed either through masking of more serious issues in combination with ADHD or he doesn’t have ADHD at all.

  24. jm says:

    I also thought the drugs could be affecting GZ behavior. I read about certain side effects of the drugs Adderall and temazepam, but don’t know how valid these claims are or what percentage of people prescribed the medication experience side effects.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      If GZ were to have a reaction to his meds its my opinion it would be likely from misuse.

      • MichelleO says:

        WHONOZE: I was hoping that with the next document dump, which will focus on GZ’s high school years, that we will finally see whether he had any history of animal or child abuse. I’ve known fucktards such as GZ when I was a kid, who wasn’t the biggest and baddest mofo in the crowd, but who could be depended upon to push the envelope when it came to pranks and cruelty. This sort of individual would usually hide out in the crowd, and be protected by them when finger-pointing time came.

      • Xena says:

        Okay. Don’t think I’m going off the deep end, but at times when I cannot understand a person, I seek understanding and glean what is credible or what confirms what is already known.
        ,

  25. whonoze says:

    I’ve posted this before, and I’ll probably post it again:
    PLEASE lay off GZ’s psych meds as an explanation for his behavior.

    I happen to be on a very similar cocktail for my chronic generalized anxiety disorder (GZ takes Adderall and Temazepam, I take Ritalin and Clonazepam). These meds do not incline the user towards sociopathy. Like many meds, they can be abused, but we have no evidence GZ did that. His affect on the night of 2/26 certainly is not consistent with significant doses of either med.

    ‘Minor’ mental health conditions (depression, anxiety, ADD) are horribly misunderstood and stigmatized, and so are the meds used to treat them. When people find out you have one of these conditions, they either assume you’re some kind of wimpy/whiner/faker and just don’t gave the character to tough it out – or they think you’re some kind of dangerous whacko and move away from you.

    Truth is, you’re just sick. It hurts, and it moves your life significantly toward the ‘unpleasant’ side of the scale. (I lost my career as a result, and am now living on disability payments.) But, if anything, on the behavioral side you tend to withdraw inside yourself. The thing itself is bad enough, but then you have to add in the way people shun you or just treat you differently when they find out you’re being treated for a mental health issue or taking any kind of mental health meds.

    Believe me, none of these meds come anywhere near the danger level, especially to others, of a gin and tonic or a shot of tequila. On 2/26 GZ’s speech was somewhat slow and slurred compared to normal, and yet he was also rash and over-aggressive. That’s a classic alcohol profile, not benzos (he’d be too sleepy to be aggresive) or stimulants (he’d be alert enough to talk normally, actually remember addresses, and so forth).

    Based on what we know about GZ’s history, I would guess his anxiety/ADD issues are relatively mild, since he seems to get out and about socially well enough (however much of an asshole he may act like when doing so). But I would also guess they are the tip of the iceberg of deeper seated pysch issues that do make him a potential danger, but on which common meds like Adderal and Temazepam have no more effect than would Sweetarts or Good and Plenty.

    Anyway, there are lots of us out here struggling with messed up Serotonin and/or Neuropenephrin levels or whatever the fuck has broken down in our brain chemistries, and as a whole we’re as harmless as the general population, and probably have a much lower ‘jerk’ quotient. A lot of us resist taking our meds exactly because they’re so stigmatized, which is not a good idea. We don’t need more amateur psychiatrists ascribing crazy shit to these relatively benign meds.

    (Note: I am not talking about bipolar disorder and the mood stabilzers and anti-psychotics used to treat that and other more serious conditions. These are the meds that ‘zombify’ the patients, and that people resist taking because the treatment can seem worse than the disease. That’s a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. GZ’s meds do NOT fall into that category.)

    • jm says:

      Would the drugs or the ADHD affect one’s memory?

        • cielo62 says:

          Poor memory is already a symptom of ADHD, as is being impulsive, short tempered, and disorganized. Medicine usually helps with the inability to sit still, but only behavior modification will help overcome the rest. 

      • Excellent Whonoze! Sorry for your disability and do understand.

        I’ve not posted, just been reading. Some of the posts have gotten so far away from what the Professor has taught us. Stick with the facts and what can be presented in a court of law.

        If I remember correctly when Gz saw the PA the morning after he killed Trayvon the last time he had a refill on his Adderall had been a while… she gave him a written prescription while he was there. But, it does not matter. ADHD will not help Gz explain away the facts we already know in this case. And, if the defense even goes there….a good psych doc for the prosecution will knock it down.

        Remember what the Professor has taught us. Spin it ten ways until sundown and it comes up as only one way. From the NEN call and from DeeDee’s account, Trayvon ran from the creepy man following him, until he could run no more. George Zimmerman was the aggressor and Trayvon Martin was fighting for his life. We have it from the horses mouth that he charged after a running Trayvon.

        Do I hate George Zimmerman and his kind? No. I just believe what is wrong is wrong and a person should be held accountable. How a 28 year old who lives in the United States of America and enjoys the freedom can come to the point of shooting a barely 17 year old is beyond our understanding. IMO I remember my grandpa’s words……Gz “bit off more than he could chew”….and now he has to “pay the pauper”.

        Remember, also, the document dumps. From the Anthony trial the the gazillion pieces of documents dumped, we learned. It is just that…a dump of documents…in no certain order…anything and everything that comes in by way of discovery is dumped…and it might have nothing to do with the case. What comes across the prosecutions desk is dumped. We cannot put it all together until the last page comes in.

        And the good Professor helps us analyze what can and cannot be presented at trial. Remember in the Anthony case cell phone pings were analyzed in minute detail. Proof of her lies beyond a reasonable doubt we said. BUT, no one saw her with the danged phone to her ear. So, how could we prove she was the one using the phone? Wasn’t even presented at trial. Well, hells bells we all knew she talked and texted for hours and hours after he child died….but, what we knew and what the jury heard was a different story. So how many of Gz’s lies can be proved with the evidence?

    • Malisha says:

      Very good explanation, Whonoze. I don’t think George’s meds had anything to do with ANYTHING regarding the crime, and I worked for a psychopharmacologist for a decade. I have personally researched not only all the drugs mentioned but all the diagnoses mentioned for George (ADD, ADHD, etc.)

      IT WAS GEORGE who used the ADHD for an excuse, not for the killing (that was self-defense, remember? Not “impaired capacity”) but for his having forgotten the name of a street in his neighborhood. Serino challenged him on his claim that he was out of his truck to look for a street name; Serino said it was not believable that there were 3 streets in his neighborhood and he failed to remember one out of the three; he responded that he had ADHD. He was just mentally photoshopping his excuses.

      No mental illness makes a person into a murderer unless, of course, the person is psychotic and is out of touch with reality; George never claimed that and there is no evidence of it.

      On the other issue, the stigma issue, I believe all of us who have depression and anxiety (I’m with you on that count) tend to be the more realistic, caring, and empathetic people in the general population. After all, we see what happens around us and we feel it acutely; that’s why it bothers us when someone hunts down
      and kills an innocent teen, in fact. I’m not apologizing to anybody about it because my belief is that it makes me radically DIFFERENT from George Z. I feel things too much; he feels them not at all.

      • TM says:

        Malisha, “radically DIFFERENT from George Z. I feel things too much; he feels them not at all” excellent! The difference in having compassion and caring and not having any.

      • jm says:

        I think George Zimmerman is clearly a sociopath who may or may not have side issues of ADHD/depression. The reason I believe he is a sociopath is his total lack of remorse for killing an innocent after it has been proven his suspicious person was staying in the neighborhood and had no drugs or weapons. His ability to brazenly lie is another reason I think he is a sociopath.

        GZ reminds me of Casey Anthony in so many ways.

        I also wonder if a part of GZ mental problems may have been childhood abuse – if what Mark Osterman said about Zimmerman’s parents is to be believed, that he was beat by his mother and his father did nothing to intervene.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          My reading tells me that George has only “selective” problems. The only time they become visible is when he needs them to be visible. His memory loss only occurs when he needs to forget something, like the gun he always carries, or the name of the street that runs from the front gate to the rear gate, that he’s been driving on for three years. Notice how absent any forgetfulness is, in his complicated scheme to move his money around?

          Oh but wait! He did forget he needed his credibility, eh? I mean, he could have told his lawyer: “200,000 came in and I paid off my debts because I realized I wouldn’t be able to work, and my wife said she may be pregnant, so I couldn’t put myself ahead of my wife and child, so here’s what’s left.” But no, he goes through the trouble of trying to use a code to conceal what he’s doing, goes into court and lies, has his wife lie, and he keeps a second passport hidden from view. Could that 2nd passport be the reason why he didn’t believe he’d need any credibility any longer? I’d be willing to bet the jurors will want to evaluate that for him.

      • MichelleO says:

        HIS mother could have felt that George’s ADHD was an indictment on her as a parent. She could have felt that he wasn’t measuring up, and was an embarrassment to the family. Osterman did say that George felt that he wasn’t as loved and appreciated as other members of the family. Robert Jr. (his brother) is an attorney. The mother probably did not know how to handle an ADHD child, and took it out on George. This doesn’t excuse him, but may paint a picture as to how he gained a reputation for bucking authority. I mean, he fought cops, who were surrounded by other cops, molested his younger cousin in a room full of people, and threw a drunken young woman across a room. Let’s not forget turning off his mother’s electricity, and then taking the key to the electrical box with him. He has some very strong anger issues. Which is probably why he is all doped up with prescription drugs.

      • Xena says:

        @Lonnie Starr.

        My reading tells me that George has only “selective” problems. The only time they become visible is when he needs them to be visible. His memory loss only occurs when he needs to forget something,…

        YES! That is so clear in his interview with Singleton and Serino. I just wish that Serino had allowed Singleton to continue putting pressure on GZ as he conveniently forgot things.

        Oh but wait! He did forget he needed his credibility, eh? I mean, he could have told his lawyer: “200,000 came in and I paid off my debts …

        It has been my impression that had GZ been honest, O’Mara could have informed the court of amounts earmarked for living expenses, past-due debts, etc., and Judge Lester may have still entered bond at $150,000.

        Could that 2nd passport be the reason why he didn’t believe he’d need any credibility any longer? I’d be willing to bet the jurors will want to evaluate that for him.

        No doubt about it, GZ planned to flee. In his mind, being out of debt means that he could live off the remainder of the money for years.

        • jm says:

          “It has been my impression that had GZ been honest, O’Mara could have informed the court of amounts earmarked for living expenses, past-due debts, etc., and Judge Lester may have still entered bond at $150,000. ”

          It is my impression from prison phone calls regarding O’Mara’s knowledge of money in PayPal account, O’Mara is just as dishonest as GZ and didn’t mind helping to hide his “defense” fund money. It seems Team Zimmerman is filled with members who have issues with telling the truth and the lies are not limited to GZ.

      • princss6 says:

        What I need clarified is if GZ was recently placed on Adderall from another script (can’t remember the name) because the other med caused aggression. It could have been his prescription refill but I also think this may be why the prosecution wants more medical records.

    • bettykath says:

      whonose,

      I’m one of those who has highlighted GZ’s meds as a possible contributor to his inability to have an emotional reaction. It wasn’t intended as an indictment of all meds or all mental health issues requiring meds. I apologize for giving that impression.

      I do know that some meds, especially if the dosage isn’t right, can give that effect and that’s why I mentioned it. Your knowledge of the meds suggests that this isn’t the case with GZ. I’ll drop the speculation.

      So we’re back to: he’s a self-centered bully with little ability to feel empathy but we don’t know why. Is that fair?

      • whonoze says:

        It’s fair to say we don’t know why, but we can guess it might have something to do with his family history, and specifically the way he was treated as a child. It’s just a guess, but things don’t happen for no reason.

      • MichelleO says:

        BETTY: You are absolutely correct that some medications can “narcotize” a person. There are mental wards full of such individuals. I know that there are drugs used for depression, which can slow down a person’s reaction time.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thank you Whonnoze for your courage in speaking up.

        As a mom with two (now grown) kids with ADD and treated with similar meds, I disagree and do think that the entire spectrum of behavioral conditions plus the meds CAN lead to troubling behaviors, (just as the condition unmedicated can also lead to troubling behaviors – or not. It really depends upon the individual – and people and their body chemistries are complex.

        I think this capability for impulsivity and going up and down with the meds as they ebb and wane in the brain is demonstrated by GZs past and present behavior, but that doesn’t mean that everyone with ADD / ADHD and is on meds exhibits the same behavior.

        This doesn’t mean we can or should demonize anyone across the board with these conditions and who use pharmaceutical drugs to balance themselves. I would not belittle anyone with these issues, as I’m also ADD and fight depression /anxiety, but have always found more stability by using natural remedies, exercise, restricting social contact when necessary, meditation, and other lifestyle choices. I don’t think one type of treatment is necessarily superior to another – it just depends upon what works for the sufferer. I am overly sensitive to pharma drugs and feel toxic and have had rare side effects after a few months on them.

        It’s true that many people with ADD /ADHD and other conditions such as bipolar are quite sensitive, kind, and creative, but it’s also true that some are more negative and afflicted than others, and this comes about for many different reasons as diverse as innate personality as well as upbringing- childhood abuse, etc. GZ seems to labor under the latter banner as well as having some deepseated issues with aggression and control that are associated with the physiological expression of ADHD, but could also be related to childhood issues.

        It could well be that we’re not seeing sociopathic tendencies in GZ but a person numbed out by pharmaceuticals, or even a combination of the two.

    • cielo62 says:

      I agree with you 100% about this whonoze. Whatever mental illness GZ has, it’s NOT something that medication can alter. I only suffer from moderate depression. LOVE my Zoloft! But the calculated “hunting” of a defenseless teen is NOT something that is brought on by over-using or abusing any form of ADD, ADHD, depression or anxiety medication. It’s certainly not listed as a possible side-effect!I would expect it from maybe some hallucinogenic illegal drugs, but then GZ would have had additional symptoms. Sorry, the only “illness” GZ has is “evil”. And he has chosen that route to get whatever sick recognition he thinks he needs.

  26. Malisha says:

    TM, Z cannot retract his lies; he already believes them wholeheartedly. He considers himself very tolerant for not pressing charges against Trayvon Martin. But no prob; he’s gonna sue their parents for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

    • TM says:

      I know you are right Malisha, guess I keep looking for something so I can think there must be something good in
      “everyone” unfortunately it just isn’t always a possibility. It would be a real shocking shame, to think that his lies might be paired with the interpretations of the law and he walks. Surely not!

      • Malisha says:

        TM, I don’t think he’s gonna walk. He might run, though. We have stopped hearing reports of money coming in — but you can bet it has not stopped coming in. The gun folks and the FOXies are behind Zimmerman come hook or come crook. Or go crook.

      • I dont think GZ will walk and I dont think he will run either — maybe more like a skipping.

  27. TM says:

    Been reading back posts and find more recently there is missing that cute little brunette “Mainstreamfair” who had been having some excellent input on the Professors posts. Quite insightful and challenging in the legal profession. Hope you are not ill. MSF, did
    so very much enjoyed your comments along with others most knowledgeable of this crime. Patricia up front in class along with others offering exceptional wisdom. In going back and reading all
    again there is quite an abundance of rational thinking. Maybe if
    Z read here he would retract all his lies.

  28. Xena says:

    LLMPapa has uploaded a new video.

    • Xena says:

      LLMPapa, it was GZ who put his hand over Trayvon’s mouth and nose. I have listened to the 911 recording numerous times after reading that Trayvon called 911 seconds before he was shot. After detecting GZ’s voice, I was unable to make out all of his words but distinctly hear GZ’s voice saying the “f” word in the background. It was also at that time when Trayvon stopped screaming for a second. That was followed with a cry of pain, a long “Nooo,” a faint “help” and then the gunshot.

      GZ made sure that the EMT’s washed evidence from his hands before he was taken to the police station. But maybe, just maybe, the EMT’s saved the material they used and put it in the first aid kit that was placed into evidence.

      Did Trayvon Martin Call 911?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I just published “Dueling videos” http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b

      LLMpapa has his own, reasonable, view that TM took the northern cut through. It makes sense and doesn’t change TM’s eta at the mailboxes at approx. 6:42:19 if not sooner. I still will use the Taaffe cut through, because it accounts for DD’s mention of “apartments” and because, I’d think that TM would rather travel close to places where he could shelter, than through a route where he’d be unprotected from the increasing rainfall.

      It’s also possible that by the time he reaches the apartment shelter, he feels he’s so wet already that he might as well continue on.

      But, like I said, it really makes no difference, he’s still going to reach the maiboxes at 6:42:19 or earlier, depending only on how fast he was really inspired by the rain to move. At 4.4 ft/sec. he needed only 13 minutes to reach the mailboxes, so if he jogged a bit he could easily cut that almost in half, and reach the mailboxes in as little as 7 or 8 minutes.

      Me personally? I think he hustled along, he had the game starting at 7pm and the rain would force a change of cloths. If he’s like most sports fans I know, he probably also has FSVA — “fetish sports viewing attire” — to wear while watching. A feature LLMpapa fails to take into account (LOL!)

      • Patricia says:

        @ Lonnie –

        Game started @ 7:30 p.m., right?

        Also, I thought the front gate was closed at 7:00 p.m., so that’s why Trayvon had to come inthrough the side border. But if he was at the mailbox shelter befor 7:00 p.m., does it mean he was able to come in through the front gate?

        Thanks!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, it makes all three entrances possible.
          If he had jogged all the way he’d have only needed ~7 minutes to get to the mailboxes after leaving the store.

          Game starts at 7:30 pm, so he left himself plenty of lee way. Since he’s been to this neighborhood before several times and has played football with other kids there, he probably knows a few of them. Could very well be that, those were some of them he met at the store. Was it a chance meeting? Had they called each other? Who knows.

          I like the cut through by Taaffe’s because it offers the most opportunities to shelter from the rain if needed. Staying on Rinehart rd doesn’t do that. He’d be exposed all the way to the mailboxes, by either the cut through close to the road or the front gate.

          But going through the apartment complex, offers shelters and DD seems to have remembered that she heard “apartments” even if she can’t recall the context. So, why would TM first tell her it had started raining, then say anything about “apartments” when there are none in RATL? The only sense that can be made of it is, that he was trying to explain that he was taking a route where shelter from the rain was available. After all, if he told his GF it was raining, he’d also want to tell her he could shelter from it, to allay her expected concern. Sure enough, there is a route to the mailboxes, that passes by apartments and shelter opportunities.

          To me that’s a very strong motive and a strong indication as to which route makes the most sense.

    • At the scene on the night of the murder, a news crew was there reporting the incident and Osterman is in the video. I have lookedfor that news report again and have been unsuccessful. I think it was a CBS affiliate. Does anyone have the reference. I do not remember the colour of the shirt he was wearing. Memories fade.

  29. Beth says:

    Is there a list of persons who was present at the crime scene when the police arrived? Did the police ever investigate who was wearing the white t-shirt that was described by witnesses?

    • Patricia says:

      @Beth,

      I have asked if Jon (witness, Asian Male) was in a white shirt. He was the first on-scene (and with a flashlight) after the shot then the LEO arrived (also with flashlight). Do not yet have the answer. With Zimmerman, Jon and Officers Smith and Ayala milling around immediately after the shot, a witness could confuse someone in a white T-shirt as the shooter. We have no report that Zimmerman had his jacket off – but it was open and he had a light shirt underneath.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia. If it’s the same Jon who took the pic of GZ’s head, the tactical flashlight and Trayvon’s body, he could have been the one seen on top of Trayvon’s body — maybe checking for vitals.

        The man in the white shirt doesn’t bother me as much as Jeremy who stepped out on his patio, and when coming back inside said to his wife to tell the cops to hurry up. He saw something that caused him to believe that the situation was more than just 2 guys wrestling.

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena and Beth also – yes, the Jon I mean is the guy who came out with the flashlight. Took the photos on his cell. When he first heard the ruckus (not too loud at that point) he was inside putting together a coffee table. It was early Sunday evening. Very casual time and casual activity. To me, he has a slight Hawaiian accent (I worked in HI on occasion). Kicking around in a white T-shirt doing home chores is “da kine.” (Standard in Hawaii.)

          But the guys with subpoena powers never asked him. The big deal for FDLE was getting the disk with the photos.

          AN ABSOLUTE “YES!” TO GETTING MORE INFO FROM JEREMY! Sure, he knows more than he’s said!

          (Wife is president of the HOA?)

        • Patricia says:

          @ Xena and Beth –
          @ WhoNoze

          WhoNoz just checked in and said “Jon” was wearing a brown shirt.
          So, have to keep looking for the white shirt.

          Thanks, WhoNoze!

      • whonoze says:

        JonW13 is visible in the news footage from 2/26. He’s wearing a dark T-shirt (brown, I think, hard to tell exactly in that light) and khakis. Definitely NOT a white shirt.

      • bettykath says:

        Y’all are forgetting that GZ’s jacket slid up exposing his weapon. Bet it exposed his shirt too. [derision] : )

        • Patricia says:

          BettyKath, I have been puzzled by the white T-shirt. I do NOT think it’s some co-conspirator who rushed in.

          GZ’s shirt underneath was light tan/gold with a mock turtleneck. He wore his jacket open. I don’t think he ever took it off. We know that in the dark of night, that red = black, visually, although the red on that jacket was more of an orange.

          Could the witness be describing the light-colored shirt GZ wore that was visible in the front, under the open jacket? GZ had a bit of a beer gut, so there would be some expanse – and be lighter than anything else. ….. But that doesn’t really “fit” to me.

          I noted that witnesses tended to describe the two antagonists by their shape – GZ was “bulky” or “broad-backed,” which people would do at night, because colors are so difficult to discern.

          I do not know the color of Sanford PD officers’ uniforms. Possibly a short-sleeve white shirt? Will check that out.

        • Patricia says:

          @BettyKath, Beth, WhoNoze, Xena –

          Holy cow! Google Sanford FL PD – go to their “Explorers” page (teen program). Look at the two older guys in the back row (right hand side) with some kind of badges on their shirts – obviously the Departmental mentors.

          Guys are wearing white polo shorts, short sleeve, like GZ was wearing in the video re-enactment 2.28 (except his is a LaCoste).

          Could not find any other uniformed officers. On the Explorers page the other LEO (left side, back) is wearling what looks like a standard white short-sleeve shirt (not polo).

          First arriving officers checked Trayvon’s vitals and were over the body to do so – and they arrived very quickly.

          So maybe it was Ayala or Smith checking Trayvon. (Smith was arresting; I think Ayala was checking the victim.)

          If you are looking down at some man’s white back, at night, you couldn’t tell whether it’s a T-shirt or a woven-fabric shirt.

          Think we’ve got it?

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia. Jeremy’s wife is a Board member — not president of the HOA. The president at the time that GZ killed Trayvon had come on board in September 2011. The previous president is the one who hired SPD to make extra patrols in the community for traffic and HOA violations. It was about a month after that was published in the Newsletter that GZ started going around with a clipboard to get names of people interested in starting a NW.

        Like his complaints while employed at CarMax, there is a competitive motivation within GZ. IMO, it exists in the entire family. I hear it in Papa Zim’s interview with investigators and the current media play with Junior after Osterman got some attention.

      • aussie says:

        White T-shirt was most likely Trayvon’s undershirt showing if the hoodie was up around his neck during the fight.

        Another said white t-shirt for GZ; the two-colour jacket can be seen, in bad light, as the light grey only, the red bit being close to invisible. This would make the jacket look like white (ish) and short-sleeved.

        Certainly NOT witness Jon, he was photographed wandering inside the crime scene tapes in a coloured shirt, from memory light orange? long sleeves.

      • whonoze says:

        The cops are also in the photos of the scene, wearing standard dark blue uniforms.

        But yeah, I’m convinced Jeremy and Jennifer saw much more than they’re telling. Their statements just don’t jibe with the audio of Jennifer’s 911 call.

        • Patricia says:

          Thanks, WhoNoze –

          Cops in standard blue uniforms? Drat! Not a white polo shirt among them? BACK TO SQUARE ONE on the white T-shirt quest!

          As far as I can tell the EMT’s wear navy as well – but they didn’t arrive until later.

          Re Jeremy – there was a interview of his wife by FDLE later and I perceived she was VERY hostile to the whole investigation, which I judged to be related to her serving on the HOA board and the HOA’s potential liability for Trayvon’s death. She certainly didn’t project any regret for the Martin’s family’s loss or the impact on Brandy and her son — her neighbors!. Very brittle. Have not transcribed word-for-word because I sensed she was not forthcoming, and frankly it was a distasteful experience listening to her.

          Again, WhoNoze, thanks for the input. Much appreciated!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        White T shirt was seen before the police arrive. The only thing I can speculate is that someone, like say Osterman, who usually wears all black, could have shed a black windbreaker, quickly went to check the body, then backed away into the shadows and donned the black windbreaker, the white t shirt would vanish.
        Unfortunately there’s no evidence to separate this or elevate it above the other possibilities cited so far. So, White T-shirt seems destined to remain a cypher.

  30. aussie says:

    First wrist control statement was in the interviews with Serino, Part 1 I think from memory. He half tells half demonstrates the move, and it is Serino who adds “wrist control, we call that wrist control” (I thought a rather nice swipe at GZ’s pretensions of being an all-knowing insider).

  31. Xena says:

    For those who have wondered if Trayvon was standing, kneeling or flat on his back when GZ killed him, here is another GZ Freudian slip. I don’t favor embedding long vids, but could not find a shorter version of GZ just before taking the voice stress test. At 32:47 of the vid, GZ says that Trayvon stood up.

    It has become obvious to some of us that GZ transfers his words and actions to Trayvon. I humbly ask that is considered when listening to what GZ says about what Trayvon did, as that could be the point where GZ grabbed Trayvon’s shirts.

    This is also the interview where GZ says that he “pinched” Trayvon’s arm and aimed his gun at Trayvon.

    • Jun says:

      You know what I noticed?

      One of his big ass bandaids is out of place. There was never any injury on the top left corner of the back of his head.

    • Patricia says:

      @Xena –

      I would love to hear WhoNoze’s opinion of the technolgy and the process – and how this interview was conducted.

      Strikes me as Mickey Mouse, with a “friend of the perp” interview.

      The technician found it hard to believe Zimmerman could shoot in that position — kept quizzing him — but NEVER asked any question about it. That was the toughest part of the interview for Zimmerman and the tech let him skate right past it.

      Yes, Xena, I noted the glitch by George. Thanks for pointing it out.

      If these machines had ANY value, you could just dismantle the whole criminal justice system. Just hook the suspect up and ask him the color of the room, and if he did the crime.

      Who needs a judge?
      Who needs a jury?
      Who needs investigators?
      Scrap ’em all!

      WhoNoze, please enlighten us!

      • bettykath says:

        The use of VSA is controversial to say the least. It’s been said to be like flipping a coin.

        “There are well-document cases where confessions were obtained after DoD devices indicated stress that led to confessions by suspects that were later definitively proven innocent. In civil court testimony, the CVSA founder testified that ‘NITV acknowledges that the CVSA is not capable of lie detection and specifically cautions its users regarding proper use of the device.'”

        Google “voice stress analysis” for more information.

        • Patricia says:

          @BettyKath,

          I would love to see the inventor’s opinion of this video. It was like the technician was testing his own squad-car partner. Or brother.
          Seemed useless, and the critical questions were not asked.

          Incredibly stupid process. I had heard that it was – this video proves it.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Judging from the amount of technobabble “am/fm frequency detections etc.,” my guess is that the primary use of this “device” is to make the interviewee think that they are under some sort of mental surveillance as a way to constrain their answers, but not as a serious investigative tool. A high school graduate would see through it, it should never be used on anyone above that level of creds, because it’s a waste of time and gives the subject a chance to “perform for the camera”, knowing the “camera” has no film.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie

            What I found useful about GZ and VSA was that it had a really good video camera recording the interview, capturing excellent sound.

            Many of the Serino/Singleton/Zimmerman recordings had terrible sound – a great loss.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, for matters of such importance as crimes, you’d certainly think they’d have state of the art equipment, eh? Kinda makes one think they do this on purpose. Since poor recordings gives them some measure of control of how the output is interpreted.

      • Xena says:

        There were only two pertinent questions asked of GZ at that test.

        “Were you in fear for your life when you shot the guy?”

        GZ told Hannity that he was nervous and terrified thinking that the police would arrive and find him standing there with his gun. Of course GZ was in fear for his life, but not having it taken by Trayvon. Rather, he didn’t want the police to shoot him.

        “Did you confront the guy you shot?”

        This question is based on GZ’s story. It is not unbiased. GZ felt that he had authority, and having that authority means he was not confronting Trayvon.

        More significant questions would have been, “Did you follow the guy?” “Did the guy bash your head on the concrete?” “Did the guy go for your gun?” “Did you scream for help?”

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena.

          Agreed, Xena – watching that “stress test” video makes you want to SCREEEEEEAM!

          Absolute bush league technician (and as BettyKath points out, a machine to match the quality of the operator).

      • bettykath says:

        Apparently it is intended to be used to get suspects so nervous of being found out that they confess. It’s an investigation tool, not a lie finder.

        I think that GZ’s meds keep him from responding emotionally to much of anything. It would be interesting to see if his meds were changed as part of his anger management stuff after the altercation with the plainclothes cops.

      • tonydphotog says:

        I’m sure GZ already knew that the VSA test is a sham. He was familiar with the SPD, and friends with MO. I wonder if anything is taught in Criminal Justice classes about the test?

      • jun says:

        The VSA should be used for what the device is called, which is detect levels of stress. It should draw some suspicion on the fact Zimmerman claimed to be in a life or death fearful situation yet remained stress free. The polygraph is not very helpful either as it simply detects various biophysic levels.

      • whonoze says:

        I don’t know anything about the VSA technology or process. However, I’m VERY skeptical of any method that claims to reveal what’s going on in the mind by measuring a single vector of physiological change in response to stimuli. But that’s a generic opinion, and I have no specific knowledge of how they measure ‘stress’, or how they correlate ‘stress’ to truthfullness or mendacity. So I THINK it’s BS, but it’s not in my field of expertise.

        I think the police can get something out of tests like VSA or polygraph — not so much any kind of definitive proof of whether a subject is lying, but another piece of (very) subjective material that may combine with other aspects of the investigation to help point toward useful hypotheses. And also, if subjects are willing to take such a test, it seems to be a good way to get their stories recorded, in ways in which their guard is different than it would be just talking to an interviewer. It’s kind of a placebo trick. That is, the ‘test’ might be a useful interview tool even if the ‘stress’ graphs were totally random and meaningless, just for the benefit of getting the statement on tape

        • Patricia says:

          @WhoNoze

          I like that statement. Crisp and perceptive. Thank you for your comments on VSA. Realistic. I am reassured by what you wrote.

    • Patricia says:

      @Xena,

      This is my second reply to your question – my computer seems to have lost what I wrote (“the H-P ate my homework”) so if it’s redundant, I ask your forgiveness.

      I think you have hit on an incredible point: how/when did Zimmerman rotate, roll Trayvon over, and gain the ascendancy?

      The shooting took place on the last site, grassy, after they had traversed (on the ground) from in front of John W#6’s patio – towards the sidewalk. (Then John W#6 breaks visual contact to run upstairs and call 911.) Nobody saw the last transition but it’s clear (to me) that that’s where Zimmerman’s head scrapes happened – concrete, vault cover or sprinkler head.

      That transit was likely painful to Zimmerman because he is such a crybaby about everything. But he also really didn’t know what “bit him” – at one point he mentions a “sign” – which I have always felt was at the doggie station up by the T. (Where George bashed his nose, I think. Not the most nimble guy.)

      In any case, when he gets to “all grass” he’s particularly alarmed by these new abrasions, and as Trayvon leans back, I think you’ve got it – Zimmerman grabs him by the front of the shirts, rotates and pulls himself up and over Trayvon.

      (Note – Zimmerman may have tried reaching for his gun while he was on the ground, but realized it was sandwiched between his ass and the earth.) I think, though, he did not have it drawn – would need his one free arm (right) for leverage to push off from the earth and gain the ascendancy over Trayvon and get on top.

      But I think the small “scary” abrasions (Zimmerman would have no idea what caused them, which would really make them scary to Zimmerman) energized him for this one last push – because he knew he had called 311 and John W#6 said he would call 911.

      And we knew he was not under Trayvon long in this grassy area because the blood flow on his head was not smeared by the grass.

      There was, what, 40 seconds of intense screaming by Trayvon? Just the right amount of time for Zimmerman to kneel on Trayvon’s arms, (excruciating), draw the Kel-Tek from the holster, lean over and wave it in Trayvon’s face, taunting him with “Tonight, you’re going to die, Mother-Fucker,” pull the hand grasping theshirts slightly out of the firing line, line up the muzzle on the surface of the taut shirt … and fire. And there was about 40 seconds of blood flow off the back of Zimmerman’s head, forward in a diagonal line across his cheeks, to settle in the beard. So the times match.

      Xena, I do think you caught the moment that the balance of power changed between Zimmerman and Trayvon, and I thank you. So observant!.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia, I humbly thank you, but can’t take credit. I’m a listener. I connect the dots based on what I hear. It takes others to put the picture together.

        Another thing I hear from GZ is how he claims that when he stopped “walking” in the direction that Trayvon took, he was on RTC. He said that when he gave the dispatcher directions, then changed his mind, that he was walking back from RTC to his truck. (Got that address but didn’t give it to the dispatcher, uh?)

        So, I hear GZ saying that, and knowing how he tries to CYA, suspect that he turned and went down the T because that is where he says that he last saw Trayvon. When Trayvon’s phone ranged, that clued GZ as to Trayvon’s whereabouts on the dog path.

        I don’t know whether there’s a way of cutting through the townhouses to get to RTC without taking the dog path, but now am thinking that if GZ could do that in 2 minutes or less, that he actually cut Trayvon off, thereby cutting off Trayvon’s path to his dad’s house.

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena –

          You’re a thinking listener. That’s what so valuable!

          Either I don’t have acute listening OR my computer doesn’t put out sound well, so many subtleties are lost to me. (My computer sound is definitely poor.)

          BUT – on the 311NEN call, at the end, after the last words, I hear, clear as a bell, a cell phone ring.

          Could that have been Trayvon’s, near Zimmerman – or one in the dispatch center?

          Could you listen for me and give me your opinion?

          Yes, I have been thinking GZ cut Trayvon off from getting to Brandy’s.

          I have been leaving the logistics to those who are clocking in the various moves – we have some real experts on this in our class — including YOU.

      • bettykath says:

        Now that I have some idea of where the sprinkler heads are relative to the sidewalk, I think one of them is a candidate for what GZ’s head hit. I’ll take your word for it that they’re the right shape/size. (We don’t need them here so I’ve never seen them) Given that the gap between the sprinkler head and the sidewalk is just a bit lower than the sprinkler head and the sidewalk, it’s probably the better candidate.

        • Patricia says:

          BettyKath,

          I hate to admit this to the class, but I’m on our HOA board. (Note: we have no Neighborhood Watch. We have a private security patrol and the State Police are right across the road. No Zimms!)

          We only have 31 homes, most free-standing, on 29 acres, so there is a lot of parkland and extensive irrigation (we have old agricultural wells for a good water supply.)

          The landscape contractor just upgraded most of the sprinkler heads. Right in the middle is a very sharp screwhead! I will try to get one to take apart, and report back to you.

          I was startled to see where FDLE put the colored translucent plastic on the lawn – the one by the curb would be an ideal location for a sprinkler head. Note that when they are next to the curb they still stick up a bit from the ground, I have always had a strong respect for these little guys because they are so tough they can hurt you. I accidentally stepped on one and ruined my ankle for two painful years, plus occasional twinges to this day, to remind me.

          Will report back to you.

          Thanks for pursuing these details.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia.

        Xena –
        You’re a thinking listener. That’s what so valuable!

        It developed on my last job, listening to over 400 pro se litigants a month tell their stories before, during, and after they appeared in court. Lawfully precluded from giving legal advice, I had to listen to determine if there was any legal information in the self-help center for their matter.

        BUT – on the 311NEN call, at the end, after the last words, I hear, clear as a bell, a cell phone ring.

        Patricia, I hear that phone ring — heard it months ago when GZ’s 911 tape was first released. What I did not know then was that DeeDee called Trayvon and that she did so at 7:12 p.m. That information was released later. GZ’s entire tone changes at that time. He was on the prowl.

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena – so was that call you heard on the 311 tape DeeDee calling Trayvon and the ringtone is Trayvon’s cell?

          If so, this signalled Zimmerman that Trayvon was nearby – and in what direction.

          Who else would be out on a rainy night, to Zimmerman – just himself and “the suspect.”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Okay, adding this to “My deduced timeline” on my blog. After a few more additions I’ll post it again for correction. Thanks Xena and Patricia.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia

        @Xena – so was that call you heard on the 311 tape DeeDee calling Trayvon and the ringtone is Trayvon’s cell?

        If so, this signalled Zimmerman that Trayvon was nearby – and in what direction.

        Who else would be out on a rainy night, to Zimmerman – just himself and “the suspect.”

        Absolutely. Trayvon’s phone log provides that a call was received at 7:12 p.m. so I believe that is Trayvon’s phone we hear ringing. But, let’s take another position. Even if Trayvon has a different ring tone or no ring tone, GZ could still hear him talking.

        This is also why I believe that Trayvon was not hiding anywhere close to a residence, as the residents would also be able to hear Trayvon talking to DeeDee. Additionally, it has always been my contention that after Trayvon reached the cut-through were no vehicle could come, that he thought he had lost the creepy guy.

        What I have sought is someone who is familiar with the headlights on the clubhouse vids, and how it takes to run from point A to point B, to give me their opinion on whether Trayvon actually started running from the mailboxes and GZ exited his truck there, making it reasonable to believe that GZ STOPPED chasing behind him at the cut-through.

        Going by GZ’s words to the dispatcher, Trayvon ran towards the back entrance. GZ did not start banging on his tactical flashlight to get it to work until he stopped running. He didn’t want to go pass the cut-through without light. However, I also believe that GZ realized he could go in another direction and cut-off Trayvon from RTC.

        Keep in mind that GZ was not standing still while he continued to talk to Sean the dispatcher.

      • jun says:

        They still have Trayvon cell phone in evidence. They can check the ring that is set from Deedee’s phone.

      • Xena says:

        @jun.

        They still have Trayvon cell phone in evidence. They can check the ring that is set from Deedee’s phone.

        I hope so. By this time, DeeDee does not have the same phone number since the conversative doghouse posted it.

      • jun says:

        They could simply see what ringtone is set to Deedee’s number

      • jun says:

        They dont need Deedee to call, they simply need the ringtone set up

    • Jun says:

      Zimmerman

      “Have you ever had to shoot someone?”

      They can use that against Zimmerman.

      • MichelleO says:

        Jun, that statement is another one of GZ’s instances when he thinks that he is being charming and is trying to warm up to this detective. He doesn’t realize how sorely out of place that statement is. How damning. Instead of staying quiet and being reflective of the night’s events, he’s trying to befriend and smooze the detective.

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. GZ followed his question to Singleton by addressing her “authority.” He was trying to justify his killing of Trayvon as a “good shoot” conveying that Trayvon did not submit to his authority.

      • Jun says:

        Xena

        It goes to prove his depraved mind. Zimmerman’s “he had to be shot” attitude goes with the disregard for human life

    • tonydphotog says:

      At 34:07, GZ mentions that he still had his gun in his hand as he was holding TM’s arms out. Really, how is it possible that there is absolutely no DNA from TM on the gun?

      • Xena says:

        @tonydphotog. GZ had to make up a story that involved him touching Trayvon’s wrists and/or hands just in case his DNA turned up there. But you might be right — if GZ touched Trayvon first, then touched his gun, there might be Trayvon’s DNA on the gun — but there isn’t.

        IMO, GZ held his gun on Trayvon in effort to get him to stop yelling for help and to allow himself to be restrained. He covered Trayvon’s mouth in that effort and when removing his hand, Trayvon cried out again. As he told Hannity, he was nervous and terrified knowing the police would arrive, and he didn’t want them finding him with his gun in his hand. I mean, think about what Ofc. Smith would have seen — a screaming kid with a man holding a gun on him. Rather than expose himself to getting shot by a cop, GZ killed Trayvon.

    • MichelleO says:

      ” If he was worried about shooting his hand, who didn’t he fling it to the side? BECAUSE THE POSITIONS WERE REVERSED AND ZIMMERMAN WAS GRABBING THE SHIRTS IN THAT LEFT HAND TO CONTROL TRAYVON.”

      BINGO! Patricia wins the gold star!

  32. Jun says:

    Anyone know which part of the interview Zimmerman admits that he overpowered Trayvon, had him in a wrist lock or wrist control, and had him under control? Then the part where Zimmerman, by his own admission, held Trayvon by his chest, had his gun already pointed at Trayvon, and then had to move his hand out of the line of fire, when he shot?

    LMAO its kind of hilarious how Zimmerman defeats himself with his own words LOL

    • Brown says:

      he can explain it

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      I hope he is convicted for taking this boy’s life. I can’t laugh about it. I hope this blog’s collective analysis, and Prof. Leatherman’s essays, help towards bringing GZ to justice.

      • Jun says:

        I am not laughing at the boy’s death. I am laughing at Zimmerman screwing himself. I want this monster off the streets and I want a message sent across that what he did is not okay, so his sociopathic cult of racists will sit down.

    • Patricia says:

      @Jun,

      GZ does not say he had TM grabbed by his shirts, restrained.

      That was ascertained by The Professor in consultation with forensic specialists, to explain the “airlock” between shirts and torso.

      But that is why GZ had to be careful in aiming, so he would not shoot his own hand,

      • Jun says:

        Okay, so he admits to having Trayvon restrained by the shirt?

        I can tell by the forensics that he did indeed hold TM by the shirt and shoot him

        • Patricia says:

          @Jun.

          Did you notice in the video how GZ kept his left hand in a curled “grasping” position close to his chest? Although he tells the technician that he had to be careful to keep his other hand away from the shot, he NEVER says why he had it in this stupid position. If he was worried about shooting his hand, who didn’t he fling it to the side? BECAUSE THE POSITIONS WERE REVERSED AND ZIMMERMAN WAS GRABBING THE SHIRTS IN THAT LEFT HAND TO CONTROL TRAYVON..

          If Trayvon was REALLY on top of him, GZ would likely be using his left (dominant, strongest hand) to prop up Trayvon’s body, so he could get his left hand with the Kel-Tek into the “cavity”” to shoot.

          Zimmerman just couldn’t think that fast.

        • Patricia says:

          @Jun,

          Zimmerman could not admit he restrained Trayvon by grasping his shirts (as the forensic evidence shows). Because it wouldn’t make sense when he claims to be UNDER Trayvon.

          His admitted restraint was the “wrist lock” discussed with Serino.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia.

        Did you notice in the video how GZ kept his left hand in a curled “grasping” position close to his chest?

        Osterman said something that I “heard.” He said that he told GZ to just tell the truth. That is a general response after someone has tried coaching another on what to say and find that the person is not understanding.

        So, GZ comes for the voice stress test, and while trying to remember what he has been coached to say (because he doesn’t want to tell the truth), his body language tells the truth while his mouth says something else.

        It’s the same as his swats at the re-enactment. Trayvon would have been 3 ft tall for GZ to have fought him off based on his body language.

  33. Jerome Horton, Trayvon Martin’s former football coach, says Trayvon was a “respectful” kid who never showed aggression

    http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/exp-point-horton-trayvon.cnn#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/exp-point-horton-trayvon.cnn

  34. JUN says:

    I did some research on stalkers on google last night

    and Zimmerman fits the profile of

    …………………………………….

    Resentful Stalker

    &

    Vengeance/Terrorist Stalker

    ………………………………………

  35. Malisha says:

    MichelleO, just like with any law that is meant to keep a bad thing from happening in a certain kind of situation, one can’t narrow it down enough to make it work without judges’ and prosecutors’ discretion getting into the mix, which would make it a potentially VERY dangerous law. Just imagine that a young African American youth was just plain railroaded; someone came at him while he was walking home from the 7-11, and they pulled a gun on him and threatened to kill him, but he managed to get their gun away and shot THEM and then the police arrived and arrested him and charged him with First Degree Murder because they said that he planned the murder between the time the guy got off the phone and the time he got control of the gun. Let’s say he was convicted in, say, a death sentence state like, oh, say, Florida. Let’s say he got the death sentence because there was an “enhancement” clause for something like additional cruelty in the murder, and the guy he killed had two cuts on the back of his head and a “likely broken nose” so he was considered cruel as well as murderous. Let’s say he had a public defender and then he lost his appeal. Let’s say he was on death row for five years before the “anti-death-sentence folks” got ahold of his case and started publicizing it. Let’s say his mother or brother or father put up a website to try to get money for a serious challenge to his death sentence and even a “proof of actual innocence” action for his defense. Let’s say the lawyers on the case estimated that it would take a half million dollars just to put together the petitions and get the sworn statements of the two dozen people who knew why his trial went wrong…

    • MichelleO says:

      THERE are too many holes is this particular story and too many versions. Those are the actions of a guilty man. For this reason, I find it disgusting that child murderer can find public support and funding for a crime that he indeed committed.

    • princss6 says:

      Malisha as always you raise an interesting tangential point I want to expound on. I’ve said from day 1, the minute GZ called the police on Trayvon, the fix was in for Trayvon. Now we have clear and convincing evidence that the SPD believed they came upon a dead black thug! Imagine IF they would have arrived before Trayvon was shot and while wrestling with GZ. Can anyone be certain that the SPD would not have shot Trayvon? I’m not! Could anyone be certain that Trayvon would not have been detained by SPD that night and be facing some court battle now if he had lived (preferable but still would have irreparably damaged his future potential)?

      On another note, is there anyone that believes that GZ did not realize the optimal place to capture and detain Trayvon would have been the dogwalk? Listen to his past calls. He knew that complex in and out and I’m sure he was well aware of the difficulty police may encounter finding him in the dogwalk. Yet he walks down there in behind Trayvon and knowing what we all know, I would offer that he did so knowing it was the perfect dead spot to do what he wanted.

      Yes, GZ had a gun but if you do not believe that on some level he knew regardless of what happened it would be Trayvon’s word against his and the deck would be heavily stacked toward believing the words of this POS, then well, I’ve got some stories to tell. And for this reason, that I believe he had precognition that the deck would be stacked towards him regardless of the outcome and why he engaged in his behavior and ultimately killed a child is why I have not a wit of sympathy for GZ. I know without a doubt that GZ went in thinking he had the superior position over Trayvon not only because of his gun but because Trayvon was young and black!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        It’s a nationwide thing blacks face everyday, google “Central Park Five” and have a good read.

        • princss6 says:

          Believe or not, I had a media studies class and did a report on the Central Park Jogger coverage vs. the coverage of the young black woman raped in NY by soccer players. No matter how heinous the crimes committed by whites, they are not depicted in the same way as blacks who commit crime. In Philly anytime more than two black people engage in a crime, they are a “pack.” And the coverage of stories regarding LGBQTs who commit crime are downright repulsive, homophobic and transphobic.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            There’s a study that says black children are treated more harshly for infractions than others and there are stats to prove it. So, I’m not so sure that Trayvon’s suspensions are anything but more of the same ol’ same ol’.

          • princss6 says:

            Yup! And see how that sets them up for society to do anything with them as SOME believe since Trayvon was suspended (no doubt his school had a zero tolerance policy) then he was a criminal and had it coming to him. It comes from all directions.

  36. MichelleO says:

    SEEMS to me that a law will have to be created keeping true suspects from benefiting from their notoriety. Just like there are laws on the books to keep criminals from making money off of the proceeds from books or movies made about them and their crime.

    • Lynn says:

      Sadly, Gz and his lawyer do not think they are benefiting. MOM said his crazy spending was “judicious”. I know this article is old but reading it drove me nuts. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/17/2900145/zimmerman-spent-35k-on-cell-phones.html
      $800 for the jail commissary…$1500 car rental…$800 gas…$1300 for food. All within the first 18 days? Didn’t MOM interview the money expert at the bond hearing about these amounts and go on about Chik-fil-a, you know, nothing over the top? He paid money to his parents. I’m certain a huge chunk went to Osterman and his “security detail”. Hard to feel for someone needing expert witness money when you read stuff like this and imagine how he blew the other quarter million.

    • Patricia says:

      Michelle. there are laws on the books in many states that criminals may not profit from their crimes, but this is enforced only when they have been judged as “criminals.”

      Until conviction, it is ther First Amendent Right to speak out.

      And make a buck off it, if they can.

      • bettykath says:

        The family of the Enron boss got to keep all of his ill-gotten gains b/c he had not been found guilty. He died before the verdict came in.

  37. Malisha says:

    jm, it’s a good question, I don’t know the answer. I expect we will see more of it in the future, though.

    What’s really bizarre about this case, in my opinion (from the legal point of view, not from the reality point of view) is that the defense is based only and solely on the story that is told, without corroboration, by the defendant himself.

    Imagine an armed robbery case. The defendant says, “He invited me into the jewelry store. I carry my gun everywhere so yeah, I had it with me. When I was in there, he said, ‘here, I’m gonna give you a bunch of jewelry, homey.’ He gave me all this jewelry and kicked me out and said, ‘don’t tell anyone where you got it.’ So I didn’t.” Then his lawyer insists that he’s innocent because the complaining witness GAVE HIM the jewelry. He sets up a web-page and asks for money for the defense. A bunch of well known defense lawyers start commenting publicly that the DA should never have charged him because they didn’t include HIS story in their affidavit of probable cause. Defense lawyers all over the country keep relying upon the DEFENDANT’S STORY to show how the prosecution is wrong and how the defendant’s constitutional rights are being violated.

    Imagine a rape case. The defendant says, “I bought her a drink. I never met her before. She invited me over to her place. I let her have another few drinks because she wanted them. Then she insisted we have rough sex. Then she told me, ‘You have to do it some more or I’ll kill you, m*therfucker,’ so I ran out of there in a big hurry. People saw me very upset, with scratches on my face, as I was leaving the scene; that proves what I said.” His lawyer relies on his version of the story and etc. etc….

    A defendant can have a self-exonerating story. A defendant can have two, three, four or more self-exonerating stories, as does George Z. But if the defense counsel wants to take one or more of those stories and make a big Internet splash over them, there will be plenty of people who will climb on board and get enthusiastic and even inspired about them, you can be sure of that. And some of them will send money.

    Anyway, sex and violence always works for getting money. As our courts become more and more theatrical, so will everything else.

    • Malisha says:

      This comment I wrote referred to a “question” but the question was whether other criminal trials had resulted in defense counsel putting up fundraising websites. It got scrambled so it looks like it was answering the questions answered by Whonoze, but it was not even about that. Sorry.

  38. whonoze says:

    @ searchingmind

    Your questions are fair, and I would like to answer them. Alas, they do not yield to ‘soundbite’ replies, and I just haven’t had the time to develop proper full explanations. I will attempt some preliminary notes, however:
    “1. Which comments do you find fascistic and why?”
    I find none of the comments fully fascistic. By ‘fascistic tendencies’ I mean a subtheme or implication, not the main thrust of the comment. And here I am referring to a unquestioning endorsement of policing and prosecution practices in a ‘law and order’ society.

    “2. Which “comments” from the commenters here” are based on “hate for GZ” and why?”
    Most of them. And that hate may be well earned. It is not the emotion to which I object, but the degree to which it obscures other matters.

    “3. What is “the big picture” you allude to, and how is that “big picture” damaged by ‘the commenters here’.”
    The big picture would include the institutional racism of law enforcement, the relationship between the gun lobby and conservative politicians, and most importantly the racist voter suppression being conducted in swing states — all of which have a certain common cast of characters. Awareness of these issues is not directly damaged here, but focus is drawn away from them by placing attention so thoroughly on the actions of George Zimmerman, who is but a single individual and merely a pawn in a larger game. Unless the larger issues are addressed, getting ‘justice for Trayvon’ will not help the next ‘Trayvon.’

    “4. Which “prosecution” is “over-zealous” and from whence proceeds the “over-zealous” forth?”
    I do not suggest Zimmerman’s prosecution is over-zealous. The factors leading to over-zealous prosecutions are too complex to discuss here.

    “5. Do you suggest that crime-victims, parents of murdered teens should quietly go home with their tale between their legs, mourn in private and suspected criminals not prosecuted?”
    That’s an insulting rhetorical question. The answer is no. I do suggest that prosecutors should not be allowed to stage spectacles of survivor-grief at trials, as they are now want to do. The pain felt by victims is not probative to the question of who actually committed the crime, and victims are inclined to project their anger and hurt onto whoever the prosecution points to as the perpetrator.

    “6. Do you have any criteria in mind for the prosecution of crimes? If yes, which are they?”
    I don’t think you mean ‘criteria’, but rather ‘rules’. Yes, I have some rough thoughts, but they’re hardly worked out, nor are they necessarily relevant to the discussion here.

    The question you did not ask: Why do i think the discussion here has focused on George Zimmerman the individual rather than the big picture issues in this case?

    a. Because that’s what the State of Florida wants, and the FDLE and SAO have been manipulating the release of information and the framing of the case in that direction.

    b. Because it’s easier and more reassuring to damn one person (especially if they deserve it) than to take on a large system. I mean, what happens here on this blog? Day after day, George Zimmerman is retried, quickly found guilty as charged, and condemned. Repeating this ritual allows the participants to feel some measure of control in their lives, that there is some order and justice ion the universe. ‘Evil’ is located within individuals. These bad people can be culled out one-by-one, tested, and then removed from society, keeping us all safe. But I think people here know at some level that’s not how things really work. Bad deeds are not merely or even mainly the result of individual pathologies but are embedded in the practices of large intractable institutions. The challenge of actually changing these institutions is so great that a form of cognitive dissonance sets in, and we project the problem onto something we can imagine actually changing, thus creating (false) hope.

    Let’s look at the Zimmerman case as an example. Now, after months and months of slow-motion discovery dumps, we have most (but not all) of the evidence that would have been available to Norm Wolfinger at the time he decided not to press charges against GZ. And what we now know is that this evidence overwhelmingly points to the fact that Zimmerman’s story was a complete fabrication. You have the concrete physical evidence of the NEN call and the 911 calls. You have the EMT reports. You have the ‘re-enactment’ video. You have the ‘help me’ exemplars. These things don’t even come close to adding up, and yet Wolfinger let Zimmerman go. Angela Corey, for her part, has had only praise for Wolfinger…

    But dumping everything on George, we are not talking about Wolfinger, about the history of institutional racism in the SPD, about the myriad ways in which the SPD is typical of police departments throughout the country. And we are not talking about the kinds of draconian laws that will fall on the poor and minorities that will be enacted if Rick Scott’s voter suppression scheme is succesful.

    Keep your eye on the Zimmonster! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

    Does that answer your question?

    • bettykath says:

      Excellent response. Much better than I could have done (obviously)

      • Malisha says:

        Whonoze was answering questions and I would like to NOT try to answer the same questions, but say a few things about the issues involved in his answers.

        First of all, I wouldn’t use the word fascistic about any of the comments on this thread relating to Zimmerman or the case. I also don’t think the people who are pro-prosecution in this case are doing so for the reasons that fascists are pro-prosecution. The roles are peculiarly reversed because the crime was actually an act by a private fascist-minded person who was then officially excused and blessed by a fascist-tendency police department in a county that permitted such things. So we have a kind of anti-fascist pro-prosecution thing going on. We make strange bedfellows of course. Corey is not an admirable prosecutor; other cases prove that. This case has not done so yet.

        About hatred for GZ, that I personally admit. I just plain hate the guy, can’t stomach him, find myself feeling sick when I see his little smirk, wanna smack his smug punkydunk face. So it’s simple; I won’t serve on the jury. But the expressions of the hatred are not, IMO, hiding anything from my view. I am viewing this case with full knowledge of my hatred for GZ and in fact, I GOT my hatred of GZ from viewing this case. But to say that it obscures other matters is not true. If GZ had gone on Hannity and had said, for instance, “OK, I was following him. I was actually following him, OK? But that didn’t give him permission to attack me and scare the shit out of me and make me fear for my life.” Then I might have felt differently about him — maybe not, I don’t know. But I hate him not only for a murderer but, as well, for a liar and a person who runs around blabbing about others’ responsibility and demonstrates none of his own. HATE THAT and will always hate that.

        How can our horror at the course of the Zimmerman case show that we are ignoring the institutional racism of law enforcement, the relationship between the gun lobby and conservative politicians, and the racist voter suppression being conducted in swing states — all of which have a certain common cast of characters? I don’t think it does, not at all. I think the Zimmerman case is the natural RESULT of all these social cancers. Awareness of these issues is not only “not directly damaged here,” but I disagree with the conclusion that focus is drawn away from them by placing attention so thoroughly on the actions of George Zimmerman. In fact, for me, the most important thing going on in this case is the federal investigation by DOJ into the actions of the police, prosecutor, etc., to find out and to name and to PUNISH the behavior that not only put the gun in George’s hand, but then enabled and even encouraged him to use it for murder, and then forgave him and even blessed him for having committed that murder.

        I think the feds are the ones we should put pressure on because a case like this doesn’t detract from our attention to the problems that caused it to arise, it HIGHLIGHTS THEM.

        I do not agree that George is merely a pawn in a larger game. He was a free agent on 2/26/2012 and he is a free agent now. Then, when protests started to grow so big they could not be ignored, he became a pawn in the gun-lobby ALEC racist SYG guys’ game, but that made his downfall eve more important to those of us who need to deal with those larger issues before our society is silenced like the dying scream of Trayvon Martin.

        The only way that getting ‘justice for Trayvon will help the next ‘Trayvon’ and you, and me, and everyone, criminal defendants included, kids with skittles not excluded, is for attention to stay on Zimmerman, for this case not to fail to get to resolution, AND for the Department of Justice to NOT be permitted to let the issue drop, but for there to be such a groundswell of pressure on them to start cleaning the houses of horror that have the picket fences of “law and order” all around them today.

        There is plenty of over-zealous prosecution in our country, and here is how it is done: Take someone with NO POWER who killed someone else with NO POWER. Or take someone with NO POWER who didn’t even kill anybody. Or take someone with NO POWER who is suspected of something. And put him or HER through the “paces” of your “law and order” and make him or HER into a slave to your prison system so you can get free labor for 17 cents/hour from him or her for 40 years. That’s how. And then charge for phone calls so the family gets impoverished so much that they can’t pay for health insurance. And then and then and then and then.

        But we can’t get Al Sharpton and thousands of supporters and webpages all over the world up for every little institutional murder. The factors leading to over-zealous prosecutions are indeed many and complex but most of them have to do with corruption in government. Corruption in government has to do with lack of transparency and MONEY.

        Prosecutors actually are not “allowed to stage spectacles of survivor-grief at trials,” unless judges let them do that. Then you get into the problem of JUDGES. If you think prosecutorial misconduct is complex, try JUDGES. The bottom line is that the entire system is so rotten the stench can kill.

        By the way, we have no control over the way that FLE and SPD and DOJ and the FL AG etc. etc. will deal with this. We only were able to get a prosecution started because organizations who had been around for decades jumped into this case to make a noise about it, so it could not be ignored. The amount of time, effort and money it takes to make anything happen is just immense and no normal person can give up his or her entire life to do these things unceasingly and tirelessly forever. So it cannot be our fault that we cannot do EVERYTHING when we feel we can do SOMETHING. And yes, we do need to feel some measure of control in their lives, and we do need to try to see to it that there is some order and justice in the universe. ‘Evil’ is located within individuals, as you point out. So each of us who are individuals who are writing on this blog, with my thanks to you as the individual who is reading this, tries in his or her own way to deal with this bigger-than-can-be-expressed problem: George killed Trayvon and got away with it.

        It is not that “These bad people can be culled out one-by-one, tested, and then removed from society, keeping us all safe.”

        It is that none of us is safe unless we at least TRY to do something to correct SOMETHING SOMETIME. And we are doing that here, in our little ways, each of us.

        The Talmud says that he who destroys one life has destroyed the whole world. And, it adds, that he who saves one life has saved the whole world.

        So even though none of us can change the practices of large intractable institutions, none of us can stop the next drone that kills the next innocent bystander in the next unlucky place, we’re doing what we can, and we’re examining carefully the case and the evidence, and we’re discussing George Zimmerman and soon will be discussing, again, Trayvon Martin, and it’s OK.

        Perhaps by doing what we think we can do, we are wasting our words, our passion, and perhaps even (God forbid) creating false hope. To me, it’s not so bad, considering. There are plenty of worse things I could be doing right now.

        Angela Corey has had only praise for Wolfinger…this tells me that the final word on the Zimmerman case will be: “Everybody go home; he’s in prison; forget about it.” Maybe some of the bloggers will keep it up, put pressure on DOJ, get at Wolfinger, Morganstern, Lee (more than to fire him, but to prosecute him) and all the others who were corrupt. Maybe.

        But I don’t agree that we’re “dumping everything on George.” We’re trying to get the real evidence out to show that the fact that he was not charged was NOT because there was no evidence, but because of the history of institutional racism in the SPD, about the myriad ways in which the SPD is typical of police departments throughout the country.

        In the end, we are keeping our eye on the Zimmonster, but I think the fact that really intelligent and committed people are involved means that we will try to pay AND DRAW attention to the man behind the curtain.

        • jm says:

          Well said Malisha

        • cielo62 says:

          Once again I humbly thank you for your well reasoned post. I object being called a fascist and I doubly resent being slandered for “not caring about justice “. Are you familiar with the story of the starfish? It’s a story we hear alot as teachers. A person walking along the seashore is throwing beached starfish back into the water. Another asks him why he bothers; you can’t save them all. It can’t possibly matter. As he throws another starfish in the water, he says ” it matters to that one”. We do what we can, a case at a time. And put pressure at the upper levels where changes can be and should be made.

    • cielo62 says:

      Wow. Looks like a Wikipedia entry. My short answer is that, even though you bring up valid points, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO DEAL WITH THEM. This thread is about this one case. Other threads discuss various issues with laws, courts, procedures etc. Bashing commenters here will not change the purpose of this one thread. As I asked before, what do you want from us?

    • Patricia says:

      @Whonoze

      Sir Whonose, you are brilliant, brilliant, brilliant in your audio analyses. Nobody else could do what you do. You have all the love and respect I can pour out to you, electronically.

      But please, sire, don’t go all philosofuzzy on us and decide that the REAL reason we are here dissecting the evidence is that dumping on Zimmerman gives us a sense of control in our lives.

      I have more control over my life than I can stand, except for one area: the unlimited hours I spend each day communing with you and my fellow students and the Professor.

      I’m totally outta control in that area.

      So, WHY do I do it?

      (I’m telling you, because I don’t want you telling me.)

      I do it for two reasons:

      (1) Trayvon deserves the justice (for which so many have clamored) and his family deserves to know there are tens of thousands, yea, hundreds of thousands who respect and honor his memory.

      (2) If the prosecution successfully jails Zimmerman, that’s going to stop MOST of the wannabeees. But if Zimmerman gets away with it, bluntly, hundreds or thousands of young Black people are at severe and incredible risk. They will be in the crosshairs of every racist gun nut – because no penalty need be paid.

      I have no clue why others participate, nor do I think it appropriate to decide their motivation. Examining Zimmerman’s pathology is one thing – he’s the one who said “I shot him.” Examining everybody else’s motivation who participates on this website is wa-a-a-y beyond what I want to do.

      And that includes you. Because if any one asked me, “Why Whonoze?” I’d shrug, and say, “I haven’t a clue. I expect he’s got a special talent to contribute, and he does so. But for whatever reason, I’m damned glad he’s here.”

      I am, and I thank you.
      For your superb work, and for reading through this.

      • princss6 says:

        (2) If the prosecution successfully jails Zimmerman, that’s going to stop MOST of the wannabeees. But if Zimmerman gets away with it, bluntly, hundreds or thousands of young Black people are at severe and incredible risk. They will be in the crosshairs of every racist gun nut – because no penalty need be paid.

        Reminds me of a statement…

        One voice can change a room…One room can change a city…one city can change a state…one state can change a country…etc…

        One case that tackles many issues adjucated publicly is one step towards a just society. For 150 years, my people chose life over voting. Unholy alliances are made, priorities are set…and if it is all interconnected, one chink in the wall makes it all weaker. Let’s be clear and look at history, the fight for African American Civil Rights started with abolition, moved onto anti-lynching and then moved to the franchise. Trayvon never got a chance to vote and I would give up my right to vote today, if it meant no more black boys died in the streets of this country because of gun violence.

        I personally don’t get why focusing on getting justice for a black victim, Trayvon, when in the past so many times, that justice has been elusive has to be a zero sum game. Shrug. So I agree with your comment and your point. I fear for the world now with my son. I would be doubly fearful if GZ walks. I think we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what justice struggle(s) resonates with us for our own reasons without being distracted or shamed for not paying enough attention to this issue or that based on a presumption. Anywhoo…good comment.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Whonoze

      I shall afford you the courtesy of a response and would not run away from the debate out of fear that we both may be coming from two different worlds and may as such be unequally armed to handle complicated legal subjects of the nature and magnitude which you – apparently unknowingly – raised in your earlier post.

      RE: Fascism and hate:

      We both agree that calling “the commenters here” ‘fascists and hateful’ was a poor choice of word and very unfortunate. If/when the members of the Jury find Zimmerman guilty, they shall have done exactly what “the commenters here” have been doing – i.e. looking at the evidence, examining the evidence and apportioning blame where it belongs to, based on the said evidence. Surely, you would not then suggest that the members of the jury are fascist whose guilty verdict is based on blind hatred of Zimmerman. There was no legitimate basis for the sweeping allegations you made and you do now agree that you misspoke. I am happy we have resolved this matter and laid it to rest.

      RE: The big-picture:

      What you describe as “the big-picture” seems quite amorphous – to say the least. Also, it is unknown what the criteria are for determining what constitutes that “big-picture” and who gets to determine the said criteria. I guess you can throw anything you want in there (I mean: in “the big-picture”). In any case you have not shown how “the commenters here” do damage to that “big-picture” you describe. And I am not sure you would be able to successfully make that case. So let’s shake hands and move on – unless you want to discuss the matter any further. Most people here are of different background (conservatives, liberals, independents, blacks, whites, Chinese, etc.) and they just want to see justice done for a boy that left his home to get candies and was murdered on his way back in a senseless act of violence while he begged the assailant for his life. Nothing more. Nothing less. They do not have any agenda.

      RE: Over-zealous prosecution
      When you use terms such as “over-zealous prosecution” you really have to define what you mean precisely. You have not done that yet. The connotation “over-zealous prosecution” has its own meaning within the academic legal community/schools of law. Within the walls of the said communities, “over-zealous prosecution” would mean ‘unnecessary prosecution’, ‘prosecuting without reasonable chance of winning’, ‘prosecuting too much (from a quantitative point of view), ‘prosecuting without cause’, etc. Before discussing “the factors leading to over-zealous prosecution” which you say “are too complex to be discussed here” you MUST first define what you mean by “over-zealous prosecution”. It seems you are putting the cart before the horse.

      RE: Criteria for prosecuting crimes:

      One is astonished that you do not see the relevance of the ‘criteria for prosecuting crimes’ to this discussion. When, as in this case, a claim is made (by you) of “over-zealous prosecution”, that claim BEGS the question: ‘well, if prosecutors are over-zealous in prosecuting crimes, which crimes should be prosecuted and which ones should not (in YOUR opinion)’? If certain crimes should be prosecuted and others not, what are de determinative criteria for that (and I meant ‘CRITERIA’ not ‘rule’, because, before anything gets to be “rules” the content of it – i.e. criteria – which must be in conformity with the primary law has to be mapped out first!)? The subjects of “over-zealous prosecution” on one hand, and ‘criteria for prosecuting crimes’ on the other hand are intertwined and cannot be separated from each other. How you fail to see that is daunting. Surely, if you opine “over-zealous prosecution” you should be able to tell us (a) what you mean by that, (b) why “prosecution” of crimes is “over-zealous” and (c) offer us at least ONE alternative to “over-zealous prosecution”. I very much hope you would do that from the point of view of legal science without telling us: “they’re hardly worked out, nor are they necessarily relevant to the discussion here” – unless you acknowledge delving into topics you have no proper understanding of.

  39. Malisha says:

    LLMPapa, that’s HYSTERICAL, I LOVE it! ❗

    Of course O’Mara has to do the best job he can do; not only does the law require it of him, but it’s what a civilized country should provide for any accused defendant. I believe, by the way, that O’Mara has crossed the lines a few times already, because (a) I believe he probably wrote Hannity’s questions for him but of course I could never prove that; and (b) his saying on the web-page, “If you would do what he has done,” is out of line if, as he has said elsewhere, the evidence is not yet out about “what” George did [thus, he was frankly appealing to people who would like to kill an unarmed Black kid]; and (c) making a public statement about George “reacting to having his nose broken” while opposing the release of all George’s medical records. I wondered what my real feeling is about him asking for Trayvon Martin’s school records. It is obvious that he’ just doing that to try to intimidate people and create more ill will towards the dead victim of his client. This won’t help him at trial and there is no evidence Trayvon Martin was ever the slightest bit violent, but it would be part of a general strategy if O’Mara were trying to restructure the public opinion “room” in which he ultimately does a plea deal (so would the statement made to the gun folks that he is not going to accept a deal). But we shall see what we shall see. Meanwhile I’m willing to say, at this point, that O’Mara has a terrible client and a terrible case and he should do the best he can and a bunch of rage-addicted resentful immature gun-toting murderous assaholics are sure to keep him busy and well paid for the rest of his natural days.

    • jm says:

      I don’t like MOM. He is out for fame and fortune. Speaking of MOM’s fortune, I hate his fund-raising because it is obvious he is appealing to racists and gun-nuts for money to defend an armed GZ for killing a black teen.

      Has there ever been a case where a defense lawyer sets up a website to ask for money to defend his client?

    • cielo62 says:

      AMEN to that description! Heads like rocks. Hearts likewise.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Except that this search of TM’s records can come back to bite him. If he finds nothing, naturally he’d rather not have it mentioned at trial, that he even bothered to look. Well, that then walls off any attack on TM’s character, because any attempt at that, will open the door to the fact that he looked and found nothing. Thus the absence of evidence becomes very good evidence, evidence he’d rather not face.

      You’ve, no doubt, already noted that, the number of kids who wear eyeglasses and who are bullies, is astonishingly close to the vanishing point, if not already there.

      • princss6 says:

        I doubt seriously he believes he will find anything. The implication alone he so publicly advertised is a blood money-making appeal. If he can attempt to trash a dead Trayvon, the victim, then I see no reason to hold any punches toward Mark O’Mara a grown adult living man. Meh.

  40. Xena says:

    O’Mara’s complete speech at Gun Rights Convention

    • LLMPapa says:

      A little something to go with your coffee this morning….

      I’ve never downloaded a 26 minute speech for one TWO SECOND snip before, LOL LOL!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Don’t go too hard on MOM, he’s only a lawyer. Lawyers are needed if we’re to have the defense that everyone is entitled to.
        We demand that the lawyer be as effective as possible, if we can’t deal with even the most heinous offender having his day in court, with effective representation, we’re putting the very fundamentals of the idea of justice at risk.

        If a lawyer has a good case against a terrible person facing a terrible charge, it’s not our place to deny a defense to the accused, that’s how we get “star chamber” trials. There just isn’t a better way that’s been found. We must protect the right of any and all accused persons to have the best defense possible, since to do any less, is to deprive our own selves of the same, should we ever have such a need. Remember there is such a thing as false charges, and that means that someone is being accused of something they did not, in fact do. Meaning that even if you do nothing criminal, you still run a risk of being accused!

        Giving the accused the right to the best defense possible, goes a long way to preventing false charges from being brought willy-nilly against innocents. Such that the lawyer you vilify today, may eventually be your own. If you were to be accused of a crime you did not do, would you want the best lawyers shying away from your case, based on how terrible the charges were that you faced?
        I think not. Let MOM do the job he’s been required to do.

        If anything he deserves kudos for being able to function in face of the awesome obstacles he’s being presented with. Of course he’s trying to raise money, that’s what it means to have a job to do and get paid for doing it. I know it doesn’t look good, I’ll agree, but that’s the way the system works until we come up with better.

      • jm says:

        I’ve been hypnotized by circular logic and circular motions.

        GZ is not guilty, GZ is not guilty, GZ is not guilty,,,,,,,, .;-)

      • bettykath says:

        Good post, Lonnie

      • Patricia says:

        @Papa –

        You are inDEEEEEEfaTEEEEEgable!
        No flicker of an eyelash gets by you!

        Thank you!
        Mede the morning coffee even more invigorating!

        You get a 4-!!!! rating! (Make that 5 …

      • SearchingMind says:

        I agree and disagree with you, Lonie on this one. Of course we all recognize that a defense counsel should be able- and must in fact do all he can to provide effective defense for his client. At the same time, people who do not shear his views and modus operandi have every right to- and should in fact oppose him vigorously – all the way. That’s the way the system is meant to work. No attorney gets to say, ‘oh pls. don’t attack me because I am doing my job as a defense-counsel’. A good lawyer must always expect attacks and learn how to fight back. One of the problems I foresee for Zimmerman’s defense is that O’Mara, IMO, is righteous and weak. If I were him, I would, within the ambient of the law, have taken- and still will be taken fierce morally reprehensible- but perfectly legal approach in this case and let the chips fall where they may. For “unrighteous” lawyers, it is not really about the client (or his victim). It’s about winning a fight with your equal (the prosecutor/counsel for the opposing party) in the Court of law. It makes you feel second to OUR LORG GOD.

  41. Malisha says:

    O’Mara’s saying George won’t plead so he can posture some more. A year from now there will be a plea bargain made. I think Shellie has to have a baby first.

    • cielo62 says:

      Thanks! I went over and stirred the pot.  🙂

      • Good for you! Big Up!

      • Loved your comment over there! That’s what I’m talking ’bout! 😉

      • From the consevative treehouse…

        http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/09/daniel-zimmerman/gun-rights-policy-conference-attorney-omara-confirms-zimmerman-wont-plead-out/#comments

        It’s getting pretty heated up over there with a number of pro TM people leading an all out scalding charge against GZ…..
        _________________

        😉

      • Treehouse people have gone nuts. Talk about delusional!

        Surprise, surprise, a bunch of first time posters at that gunsite spreading propaganda. These are hired guns from the Crump/Julison camp trying to stave off donations to the GZ defense fund.

      • Xena says:

        There is much massive ignorance in doghouse comments; for instance;

        The “State” has an obligation to publish the “Call History” of that cell-phone found by TM’s body. But withholding that critical information, they are committing legal mal-practice.

        Trayvon’s phone log was released months ago. I have a copy. OTOH, the State has not publicly released GZ’s phone log although it was entered in discovery material. Do treehouse comment contributors ever bother to examine the discovery material? Do they bother to check with the local Bar to find out what constitutes “legal malpractice”? Have they ever researched “standing” to bring a cause of action? How about immunity?

      • Jun says:

        I dont think they do. They spend their time making up lies about Trayvon, with a picture of an older black person than Trayvon, claiming its Trayvon and then claim he is making Lean. Other than that, their other defense is media bias and railroading by Crump and other black leaders, when in fact Corey and the State are prosecuting Zimmerman and the news simply reports what is released to the media, including what Omara releases, which means, the media is basing their findings on the evidence.

        My new name for that site is “Conservative Tinfoil Hat”

  42. “Texas Man Found Guilty of Murder in Self Defense Case”
    Read it and weep, Georgie. Read it and weep.
    http://galvestondailynews.com/story/351142

    • I saw you on thetruthaboutguns. You, Shannon and Jun kicked butt and took names. They were left thinking…what.. what happened! LOL

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! And to think I learned all that from you guys! Alas, they are still clinging to the misinformation and their own inability to change their minds. I doubt our words will make much of an impact, if at all. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Don’t think you haven’t done anything “over there” just because they won’t publicly admit it. You post good, valid information and argument, minds soak it up and some rebel. But later it begins to work on them from the inside out. Realize there are many over there who are just “joiners”, they never bothered trying to find out what to believe, they just looked and saw a group on one side of an issue and they joined with them. Nice to be part of a group.

          But, “hammered” by facts, arguments fall away. Already some “over there” begin to wonder why they have only emotion on their side and they decide to look, to see if they can find something more to use. Once they reach the inescapable conclusions, they realize they can’t be part of the group any longer and they simply slink quietly away.

          So it does have an effect, it just takes longer.

          • cielo62 says:

            I hope so, Lonnie. Not because our “team” scores any points, but because people should learn to become critical thinkers and to look for facts and evidence. It makes one less likely to be fooled and drawn up into a bad cause.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I argued at length against Bush and he got a second term. I know some people who voted for him and guess what? It’s a bit too late for them to do anything about it, but they’d never, ever vote for him again. Now they won’t even look at Romney, they’re against him, but, unfortunately, if for the same impulses that they were for Bush. Egad! Just and emotional “I don’t believe anymore”. But at least now they’re wondering what. where or why they went so wrong. That’s got to be a start. But even before Bush “proved his mettle”, many of his supporters changed sides. The droves we saw on usenet during the last of the Clinton years and the first Bush years went quiet.

            Over the years I learned a few tricks that if I’d have known how to deploy them back then, I could have been much more effective. Alas, live and learn and often too late.

      • JUN says:

        Never going back on that site ever again….

        I dont believe there are people who feel it is perfectly okay for a complete stranger giving a kid unwanted attention with no instigation, stalking and chasing him with a gun and terrorizing the kid and killing him

        They make me sick…

        In other news though

        I learned a lot about court on here…

        Omara is pretty much in a position where he has to stand like a statue and either let them fling mud at GZ on the stand or GZ not take the stand and give no testimony or statements and there is no evidence.

        All Omara has is witness 6’s recanted statement, and a doctor’s note that doesnt even state it was a broken nose, and Zimmerman’s statements.

        Witness 6’s recanted statement can be proven false by the forensic evidence and other witnesses who say Zimmerman was on top but witness 6 realizes he doesn’t want to be charged and the rule is he can recant to avoid prosecution (either way, Omara will likely be bringing him in)

        Orourke can testify but he can only give his opinion on Z’s injury and if Omara tries to use it and say “hey that proves Trayvon attacked” it can be refuted in so many ways…

        Zimmerman’s dad will be forced in a position to either lie and get charged & or impeached of his credibility or he can simply stay silent and or recent

        • cielo62 says:

          I agree with you JUN. Those folks are totally blinded by their agenda to “protect” their gun rights that they can’t admit GZ is a sociopathic killer who murdered an unarmed teen. But since 1) the victim was black and 2) GZ invoked their sacred SYG, they will allow G Z anything. It would be pathetic if it weren’t so all gol- darned frightening.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yeppers! GZ has ruined his defense. The SP will let MOM raise what ever issues he can, then come back and destroy them. Once enough lies have been revealed to the jury, then the SP administers the Coup de grace: GZ is free to do with his hands what he wants, because there is no longer any imminent threat in existence at the time he pulls the trigger. Even if there had been a threat sufficient before, it is nowhere in evidence at the time of the shot. Since no reasonable person can believe, that an unarmed teen can kill or seriously injure them with just his bare hands and do so while held at gunpoint to boot. Zimmerman is toast!

      • cielo62 says:

        SouthernGirl- did you see the name of the author of that piece you linked? Dan Zimmerman! Do you think there is maybe a family tie there? Weird!

      • JUN says:

        I’m all for gun rights but why are these people so stupid?

        Zimmerman’s actions are detrimental to gun rights. If they keep supporting Zimmerman, the government will take away all their gun rights. The government is going to see their comments and think “Wow these people are going to hurt and kill a lot of people and feel it is perfectly fine, I should take away their guns before something happens” opposed to “Okay Zimmerman is a nut case but at least these gun users are responsible”. Zimmerman is no different from Holmes. I do not know if they just have internet balls, but I never figured that it would be easy for someone to kll another and be so cheery over a death.

  43. Lol! They need to lock him up he is a danger to society…

  44. Malisha says:

    LLMPapa, George has a perfect explanation for that. He forgot which was front and which was back of his shoes when he put them on that day because he has ADHD.

    • Tzar says:

      Tee hee hee

    • JUN says:

      LOL I just realized that Zimmerman can keep claiming to forget and blame his ADHD (if that is even true) but then would get impeached for his credibility because he is not reliable for information on that night

      • Xena says:

        Yeah. He has a bad memory, which is why he obtained a house number on RVC that he planned to retain in his memory until he got to his truck.

        Had he called NEN with the house number while he walked back from RVC, his cell phone would have been in his hand when he reached the T so he would not have needed to search his right-side pockets for it.

    • jm says:

      Brilliant. I can only hope the prosecution is following your youtube commentary.

    • SearchingMind says:

      LLMPapa, You are able to present this tragedy with great humor, point out those little but very relevant and significant details which most trained eyes overlook/would not see and bring laughter in the midst of sorrow. That’s quite a talent. Gefeliciteerd!

      However, according to police report, the back of Zimmerman’s jacket was wet and had grass on it as if he has been lying on his back on the wet grass. Now, if the back of Zimmerman’s shoes and (lower) legs are dry and immaculate, Zimmerman could not have been lying on his back on the wet grass, unless he had his legs up in the air while on his back.

      How do you guys square this circle or circle this square?

      • Patricia says:

        @Searcher,

        Both guys were down on the grass, struggling, and both guys got wet. Zim’s jacket looks to be water-repellent and was part polyester (65%, I think). It rained heavily at times.

        Trayvon’s clothes were soaking wet.

        By the time the police photog took the pictures of Zim, I expect his cotton-fabric levis pants-legs had the chance to dry out. They are vertical, not worn close to the skin on the lower legs, and would have good air circulatiion.

        Or maybe Doris Singleton threw Zimmerman, pants & all, into the dryer and tumbled him …

    • Zhickel says:

      Rachael:
      I believe we are seeing O’Mara’s case in a nutshell in these lines.

      “Damn straight, it makes sense because this is a self-defense case,” he said. The law outlines the circumstances by which a person is allowed to act with force, he said.

      “If you believe that you are in reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death than you are allowed to respond to that using force, up to and including, deadly force,” O’Mara said. “Basically, that’s been self-defense for as long as we have had laws.” The provision of the law regarding a person’s “duty to retreat” has been a source of misunderstanding, he said.

      -If you believe that you are in reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death……

      …I believe this is the backbone of Zimmerman’s defence. Shouldn’t be hard to disprove.

      • JUN says:

        Zimmerman so reasonably feared the 100 pound kid with Skittles & Ice tea, that he had to chase and stalk him around the complex with a gun

        I guess I figured out why Zimmerman skipped the ER. His 1/4 inch wuss cuts can only be healed by Shellie’s butterfly bandaids

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        It isn’t hard to disprove since GZ has already disproven it with his own words. He held the kid with one hand, while aiming his gun with the other! So, now he has to explain, what possible threat of imminent death or great bodily harm did he face at that moment when he decided to pull the trigger? That Trayvon could some how kill him almost instantly if he didn’t shoot him then and there?

        Like the martial artist says, people don’t scream for help while they’re fighting. If they’re screaming for help that means they’ve stopped fighting. When you are fighting you are helping yourself, there’s no mental capacity left to scream, because you’re focused on fighting. Only when you surrender is your mind free to do other things like scream for help. Clearly a person with one hand holding your clothing, while their other hand is holding a fire arm, is not in any danger and has no need of help.

        Zimmerman’s failure to show that he faced an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury AT THE TIME HE PULLED THE TRIGGER, means that he is guilty of murder. Because Trayvon had no means of either killing him or even doing him great bodily harm at that point in time. MOM has no other defense so he has to cling to the idea of self defense and hope that a jury will agree. Obviously the evidence he has will not be convincing.

        I think that at some point, either GZ will do something stupid or the SP will level another charge and bail will be either raised or revoked. Because GZ isn’t taking his case very seriously at all. He still thinks that his brand of insanity will win the day. But either way there’s no hope of a plea deal, this case is an international display. International cases can and do impact foreign policy and national security. Just like anything else that becomes a global affair. As such the pressure is on the state to prove it’s case now. The time for bargaining has passed.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Indeed, Zhickel . You captured the crux of Zimmerman’s defense. O’Mara’s interpretation of the law though is grosso modo correct. The huge problem he (O’Mara) has is getting (the details of) Zimmerman’s self-defense claim fit in within the ambits of the law. “If it doesn’t fit” in, the jury will convict.

        @MichellO. I do not agree with you. Nobody will be flushed down the toilet. That’s the kind of language we don’t want here.

      • Jun says:

        I think Omara has it wrong. The belief has to be reasonable. Besides, Omara is trying to present by omitting facts. Zimmerman also cant instigate the altercation, otherwise, another set of rules apply. Either way, he was stalking and chasing a kid throughout the complex, so if Trayvon slugged him, his force would be considered lawful. However, I dont feel Trayvon even hit Zimmerman. I think he ran into the tree when he turned the corner. Besides that, when Zimmerman fired his shot, he was in no reasonable fear of imminent danger of great bodily harm or death. By his own admission, he subdued and overpowered a kid (who’d a thunk it), restrained him by his shirt, and killed the kid with a shot, then pinned Trayvon facedown until he stopped struggling, then showed no care for the kid. In fact, they dont even need to argue the gunshot and win, they can argue from the facedown pin until he stops struggling, because at that point, he really was in no more imminent danger, and it is cruel and unusual punishment. They could even argue that force and win.

    • MichelleO says:

      GOD, I’m so sick of these people. Flush the Zimmermans’ and MOM down the toilet already.

    • bettykath says:

      Q. How did the “Hannity” experience go for your client?

      A. “George made that decision out of fear and out of need. George thought he might be arrested and never get out. This was after the million-dollar bond. So he thinks he’s going back to jail and the defense fund was at low ebb. The security expenses were outrageous because he now ordered to stay in Seminole County.

      “The fear was he was going back to jail and he was going to run out of money. The need was he believed that if he had gone on Sean Hannity show, that would be a shot in the arm for the defense fund.
      +++++++++++++++
      Remembering the defense fund only existed, because BEFORE MY INVOLVEMENT, HE HAD GONE ON SEAN HANNITY SHOW. That is where that $200,000 came from. In a six- or eight-day period, that $200,000 came in because Sean Hannity got on his program and said to effect, ‘Help George. This is a nice guy who’s being railroaded.’ One day $68,000 came in.
      +++++++++++++++
      “In George’s mind, Sean was in a sense his savior, because when Sean said, ‘Please help this guy out,’ he got helped out. I think George made the decision to go back on Sean because he thought it would help his defense fund. And that it was going to be necessary, because if he was back in jail, the fear was his wife Shellie would be unprotected by him.”

      • JUN says:

        Being in Seminole County is so fearful yet he hid out at Osterman’s house with his wife. Its getting too easy to spot all their lying.

  45. http://thefreedombulletin.com/2012/06/a-martial-artist-looks-at-the-zimmermanmartin-murder-case/

    Maybe this link has been posted before. Sorry if this is the second time.
    I just looked at it today.
    Will the prosecution call a martial arts expert show that Zimmermans story is bogus ?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      You can bet that they’ll examine several martial artists and other combat specialists to see what, if anything can be learned and/or demonstrated. The SP probably has assigned someone to research this with more than one provider. Because they’ll be looking for irrefutable demonstrations.

      Obviously a child who wears glasses and therefore receives no sports training or plays in organized contact sports, is going to be a poor match for a professional bar room bouncer. But that’s just my guess. Maybe there are some bars who hire bouncers who can be kicked around by bookish seventeen year old kids.

      • Patricia says:

        Bonnie and Lonnie –

        This video was created in June but I had never seen it before.

        Goes without saying, I loved it.

        Lonnie, if you find that bar that hires the bookish 17-year old bouncers, let me know. I can order a lemonade and not be rousted.
        And the kid can probably fix my computer, too.

        Thanks!

      • Malisha says:

        Don’t forget that Zimmerman LOST his job as a barroom bouncer for being too violent! The agency that hired him out was afraid of liability!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Excellent point Malisha. He’s a bar room bouncer who is too violent for the job, against an untrained meek and mild child with no experience at combat, or even contact sports at all.

          Let’s see how that plays in front of a jury. A man too violent to be allowed to deal with troublesome customers spoiling for a fight, against a hapless child and he claims the child was a deadly threat? While he, himself is armed with a deadly firearm? A firearm he never loses control of? While the child’s dead body shows no evidence what-so-ever that the kid engaged in a fight?
          Who is kidding who? The violent ex bouncer scream in terror for help while aiming his gun at the child’s heart?

          How many things can one find wrong with this picture?

      • JUN says:

        I wonder if we will hear a blaxploitation

        “Bitch Pleez”

        when Zimmerman makes the “deadly 100 pound child with skittles” allegations and he was so forced into the corner by the “Black Bruce Lee” because his training as a bar bouncer and being too violent for adult patrons and fully grown and trained police officers when he attacked, did not prepare him for Trayvon

        I think I am losing consciousness shaking my head at this

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          When the jurors here GZ say that TM “skipped away”, the case will be totally over! GZ’s credibility will be so far gone, it could not be found even in a galaxy far, far away.
          Night all.

    • MichelleO says:

      THANK YOU, Bonnie:

      Who was Actually on Top?

      An early witness to the fight said that she saw a situation where one person was on top, but could not tell who that person was. She made every effort not to “fill in” her observations with opinions or corrections, making her a credible witness. In fact, she actually identified Zimmerman as being on top without knowing it. Why? Because the hooded sweatshirt that Martin was wearing is the kind where the hood tends to “ride up” over the head. (I know this from experience because I own one of those types of hoodies.) In a fight situation, the hood would have tended to cover the head, and unless it were pitch black out, the witness would have clearly seen the hood. Since no hood was seen, Zimmerman was, by logical deduction, on top and not Martin. Other witnesses came forward well after this one, but this witness seemed to be a lot more credible than those.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “Who was Actually on Top?”

        To answer this question, my educated guess is that prosecutors would be relying heavily on ballistics/trajectory of the bullet that killed Trayvon Martin. That trajectory tells us that Zimmerman was NOT lying on his back with Trayvon on top of him straddling him and dishing out blows to his face and head when he (Zimmerman) fired the shot. Such is, from the point of view absolutely impossible. That leave one viable option open: Zimmerman must have been on top of Trayvon to get a perfect straight shot into his (Trayvon) chest, heart and lung. The prosecutors, I think, would be relying to a decisive degree on science (instead of conflicting witness statements) in order to deny the members of the jury the opportunity of choosing which witness not to believe – because that witness might end up being the ones who saw Zimmerman on top.

        • Patricia says:

          @Searching

          Sage observation, Searcher. Stick with the trajectory of the bullet.

          Zimmerman wants to use his story that Trayvon was on top BASHING ZIMMERMAN’S HEAD as his EXCUSE for shooting.

          When Trayvon had been on top EARLIER, Zimmerman had no opportunity to shoot because it was physically impossible. When Zimmerman got on top, only then was it possible for Zimmerman to shoot – and he did.

          What is clear is that Zimmerman could ONLY have shot Trayvon when Zimmerman was IN CONTROL OF TRAYVON.

          The one position that Zimmerman claims – under Trayvon – puts Zimmerman OUT OF CONTROL of Trayvon, BUT THE TRAJECTORY shows that it is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for Zimmerman to have made the shot that made the trajectory, in that position.

          As Lonnie points out, the position they were in does not really matter – the issue is that Zimmerman shot Trayvon when Zimmerman was IN CONTROL OF THE WEAPON and Trayvon had NO DEFENSE – and no weapon.

          Contrary to Zimmerman’s claims, Trayvon’s HANDS were never weapons – FORENSIC EVIDENCE PROVES THIS.

          Zimmerman with his gun out, could simply have got up and walked away. He had NO FEAR FOR HIS LIFE. Evidence proves Trayvon inflicted NO HARM to Zimmerman.

          But the “anger management” class Zimmerman took three years earlier didn’t work, did it? So he SHOT THE “SUSPECT.”

          Great analysis, Searcher. It’s a “stick to the basics” approach – and will be clear to the jury. Trajectory triumphs!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Exactly! The law does not say “You can take a shot. at your attacker, when you can!”

            It says “You can only take the shot if it is required to do so, to prevent the loss of your life or great bodily harm to yourself”.

            At the time GZ draws and aims, not one of these conditions apply!

            Therefore the law prohibited that shot from being fired then!

            Zimmerman may want to believe that he could have thought many things. But what he was thinking at the time, is not what the jury will be asked to decide!

            They will be asked to decide if “GZ had a reasonable threat of suffering great bodily harm or death at the hands of an unarmed child”. That fear is unreasonable because; no one has ever been killed by an untrained, unarmed youth while the youth was being held at the point of a gun!

            The only loss GZ had to fear at that point in time, was the loss of his reputation.

          • Patricia says:

            @ Lonnie –

            LOVE THIS! SO VERY, VERY CLEAR:

            “They will be asked to decide if “GZ had a reasonable threat of suffering great bodily harm or death at the hands of an unarmed child”. That fear is unreasonable because; no one has ever been killed by an untrained, unarmed youth while the youth was being held at the point of a gun! The only loss GZ had to fear at that point in time, was the loss of his reputation.”

            NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN KILLED BY AN UNTRAINED, UNARMED YOUTH, WHILE THE YOUTH WAS BEING HELD AT THE POINT OF A GUN!

            PROSECUTION MUST HAMMER ON THIS!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I believe they will have to. The entire trial… All the why’s, wherefore’s and “this or that” will boil down to whether or not GZ had no other choice but to either fire that shot or die, or else suffer great injury.

            The jury will retire to think over whether or not GZ had a fear sufficient to fire his weapon. They will be asked to decide if they think that fear was a reasonable one, in their own view.

            MOM’s job will be to convince the jury, that a 17 year old with empty hands, being held at gun point, represents a serious threat of great injury or death to the man who pulled the trigger.

            He’ll probably want to bring a collection of Bruce Lee films for the jury to see, but Bruce Lee was trained and older than 17, nor was Bruce Lee being held at gunpoint, and he is proficient at combat, sufficiently to have the confidence needed to proceed with offensive maneuvers, because he has every reason to believe they will be effective.

            Trayvon would not throw a punch, simply because he cannot judge what the effect of that punch would be. Other than to realize it would not kill or stop his attacker, and that it would enrage and inflame his attacker. Why would anyone want to enrage and inflame a person who appears to have superior combat abilities?
            Less, with an attack that they can only believe will be ineffective?
            Neither the logic nor the emotion lends any credence to things having happened that way.

            While George carries a gun into proximity of Trayvon, but that weapon is concealed. Only George knows of it’s availability, because he carries it all the time, everywhere he goes, he cannot forget that he has a weapon on him. Because it’s always there! Each time he wakes, dresses and leaves his house, he takes pains to ensure that his weapon is with him. Pretty much in the same way he does with is underwear, his socks, his shirt and his shoes. These are things he always puts on, every time he dresses, he does not have to think about it, he always knows they are there. Thus, a deadly weapon, which is more than just socks or shoes, has to draw more attention than items of clothing. Because it’s making a choice between being safe and not being safe. If you feel safe when you have your gun, you will not feel safe if you don’t have it. Thus you cannot forget that you have it, because you will not feel safe without it.

            “Georgie porgie puddin N pie,
            shot the boy and made him die!
            Now Georgie porgie tells his lie,
            the jury will tell him good bye!”

          • Patricia says:

            Remarkable, Lonnie. Now, if only the prosecution will boil it down to this. And repeat it.

            I have been thinking the prosecution might bring in, earlier in the process, a martial arts instructor to ask, “How many years’ instruction/practice would it take to be effective in martial arts? What would be the physical requirements? (i.e., muscle mass) What would the cost of this training be?”

            Then ask Trayvon’s parents: had they enrolled him in such classes? What was their cumulative cost?

            Might also ask his school coach if they had such programs at school and did Trayvon participate?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, all that too, but it’s easy to see that had Trayvon, even had sports training, he’d have easily out run and managed to stay away from GZ. He was caught by GZ because he didn’t know how to properly manage his resources. When fear overpowered him, he ran all out and burnt out, before he could even reach home, in my estimation.

            Consider that he’d just walked to 711, we don’t know what time he left home, but we know it’s a 16 minute walk at 4.4 ft/sec. It could very well be that he hustled along, with rain impending and wanting to make the start of the game. He might have covered the distance in a few minutes less. On the other hand, on the trip home he actually faced escalating rain, he could reach the mailboxes in only 13 minutes at 4.4 ft/sec. It’s extremely likely he hustled along and perhaps even ran some of the distance.

            6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min. @5/ft/sec ~12 min. then running even a quarter of the distance would be double speed, loping off another minute or two.

            In any event, he’d wind up sheltering at the mailboxes, not just from the rain but in an attempt to recover and rest. 10 or 12 minutes would hardly be enough to get back to “fresh”. So, when he took off running again at full tilt, he’d quickly run out of steam.

            A wee bit of sports training, and the first thing he’d learn is not to expend himself so quickly. I remember a coach saying things like that way back in high school gym. You learn to pace yourself so that you don’t burn out quickly and can last longer. Just about any coach or physical trainer of youths will tell you this, and that it’s the first major problem teens face in sports, how to last.

            So a trip of only ~3452 should not have burned TM out, so that he was breathing so heavily DD could hear him out of breath over the phone. Teens have good clear lungs able to breathe quite deeply and excellent circulation, managed properly he should have been able to run, pretty fast, for a mile or two without practice, if only he had even modest training. So, I’d rule out any martial arts training, where endurance is usually the key to success.

            From DD’s account, it seems to me that GZ caught TM because TM was used up and very tired. I’ll bet that any physical therapist who looks at the nature of the trip to and from the store will assess that TM was very tired when GZ encountered him.

          • Patricia says:

            GZ didn’t take the gun to work, but could have worn the holster at all times. Probably couldn’t get into certain buildings, armed, due to metal detectors. Like Sanford PD? The Court House?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            There again, GZ lies so much, we can’t know what to believe. He says he didn’t wear the gun at work, but he may have anyway. He’s not one to be fastidious about rules. At the SPD, it would probably depend on who he walked in with. I’m sure a friendly PO or the Brass could get him waved through with his weapon. Probably not at the courthouse though. In which case he’d probably lock his gun in the car.

            But the point is, if he’s so fastidious about being sure to have his weapon with him, everywhere it’s legal to do so, he’s telling us that he never forgets his gun, even when he’s not permitted to carry it, he knows where it is. So, he has to know where it is when it’s on his person. Such that, in his case there is no “I forgot I was armed”. How could he not know? He knows when the gun is left in his car, he knows when he doesn’t have it. Otherwise how can he say that he carries it everywhere? It’s the “positive and negative” knowledge that comes together to create the impression that he always pays attention to his firearm.

      • SearchingMind says:

        correction: Such is, from the point of view of science ….

  46. Malisha says:

    Rachel, I understand that the video was suggesting that “a police officer, that I had called” was Osterman, but I actually don’t think his careless words necessarily mean that. I am leaning towards the idea that his NEN call was not his last call and that he phoned T. Smith at some point. Just a hunch. Osterman was a federal agent by the time — George might not have been thinking of him as “a police officer.” But it’s really a good catch. This is the third version of the events:

    1 – I was trying to maintain visual on the suspect;
    2 – I was trying to find an address (or street name);
    3 – I was trying to meet up with a police officer that I had called.

    All just supposedly plausible explanations to be preferred to, “I was following Trayvon Martin in order to unlawfully restrain him and bring him in.”

    • cielo62 says:

      Rachel and Malisha~ I don’t think we need to look that closely at GZs use of that sentence structure. I took it to mean that he was trying to meet up with the police officer he had called ie, the officer he had called with the NEN call. I didn’t really take it to mean that he had made an additional separate call to a specific cop. I couod be wrong, but GZ doesn’t strike me as being that specific a speaker.

      • Patricia says:

        Cielo, Malisha –

        Zimmerman told Hannity that he was there to meet the police officer – just another Zimmerman prevarication.

        Zimmerman did NOT want to admit on network TV that he had REFUSED to stay in a specific location to which Sean/311/NEN could direct the officers to connect with him on their arrival — and that the reason he refused is that he wanted to be a “free range hunter” to pursue his quarry, which he did.

        It’s on record that Zimmerman asked Sean that he be called upon their arrival, at which time he would tell them where he was. Clearly what he hoped was to hand over “the suspect” (his term) and to be able to do this he had to stalk and corner this kid. (And he called him a “kid.”)

        Everything he said on the NEN and all the actions clearly show his intent to pursue – and that he did pursue. HE DID NOT WANT TO ADMIT THAT TO HANNITY.

        Imagine O’Mara’s face if Zimmerman admitted the truth!

        Ay, caramba!

      • LLMPapa says:

        Patricia, you may be correct, but I will point out if you listen again, Zimmerman didn’t say he was there to meet THE police officer he called.

        He said he went to meet “A police officer I had called”. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but remember, he was still on the phone with NEN when he supposedly went across the sidewalk to RVC.

        Seemed like reference to a separate call to me, but with Zimmerman talking, who knows? LOL

    • JUN says:

      Well you know Zimmerman was going to his car to meet officers, thats why he needed to find the address on the other side of the block opposite direction of his car… while Trayvon was skipping really fast and Zimmerman kept going in the same direction as Trayvon while closely behind him… then Zimmerman was confused if he had to meet his legions of black friends

      • cielo62 says:

        JUN~ you are a bad person!  🙂

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Actually Zimmerman only said he was on his way back to his car. But, then… Why did he say “have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at!” Doesn’t that mean he’s nixed the idea of returning to his car? It’s only after he’s killed a kid, that we hear from him that he was on his way, to a place where he told the police, he didn’t think he would be. The import is that he decided not to go back to his car, and didn’t anticipate being there when the police arrived.
          When, obviously, according to him and the NW rules and the police admonishment, he actually had nothing else to do.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie –

            Absolutely correct. GZ never intended to be at his truck for the officers to meet with him GZ wanted his freedom to pursue “the suspect,”.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Correct! It gets dizzying, but after he’s killed the kid, he then claims he was in the process of returning… To the very place he refused the police request to meet him!

      • JUN says:

        LOL jaja

        Thanks

      • MichelleO says:

        I BELIEVE those words “suspect” and “assholes” and “fucking goons” are going to come back to bite this very stupid man in the arse. He keeps degrading this unknown individual even after he executes him.

        • jm says:

          Aside from the lies, etc, the reason I dislike Zimmerman so much is after he was proven to be DEAD WRONG about Trayvon being “suspicious” and “on drugs or something” he has no remorse. None. The only reason Zimmerman apologized in court was for PR as he took the opportunity to lie about Trayvon’s age in court in spite of identifying Trayvon’s age as late teens to the dispatcher. It’s like the killing of an innocent teen GZ stalked is nothing to the Zimmerman team and just an opportunity to cash in, oblivious to the fact Trayvon was wrongly profiled, shot and killed by Zimmerman. I just can’t get over the no remorse part of the whole scenario once it was determined Trayvon was not a burglar and was just walking home from the store with nothing but Skittles and iced tea.

        • Patricia says:

          @Jun,

          I always sensed that Zimmerman’s use of the word “suspect” that night at SPD really set Doris Singleton’s jaw in a clamp.

          She is sworn, and he is not.

          Singleton has the training and street cred and authority to decide someone is a “suspect.” Zimmerman does not.

          It is offensive of Zimmerman to used terminology to which he is not entitled and in this case, terminology that’s not correct.

          I don’t think that did him any good.

  47. SearchingMind says:

    @ Whonoze

    “@bettykath
    Keep up the good fight. I’m not sure whether the commenters here actually have fascist tendencies, or are just so blinded by their hate for GZ they can’t see the big picture. The fact is there is a lot of over-zealous prosecution in this country, a lot of prosecutorial misconduct, and the victims are overwhelmingly from subordinate social groups: poor, non-white, etc.”

    I am not sure what point you are making. It is neither fair nor responsible to suggest that “the commenter here” have “fascist tendencies” “or are just so blinded by their hate of GZ they can’t see the big picture” without elucidating on what you mean. IMO, the way you formulated, worded and presented you thought intimidate people into not expressing their views for fear of being called “fascists” and hateful. As such you maybe stifling healthy debate. But I do truly think that you misspoke this time. I therefore would very much like to engage you in a serious exchange of thought beginning with the following questions:

    1. Which comments do you find fascistic and why?

    2. Which “comments” from the commenters here” are based on “hate for GZ” and why?

    3. What is “the big picture” you allude to, and how is that “big picture” damaged by “the commenters here”.

    4. Which “prosecution” is “over-zealous” and from whence proceeds the “over-zealous” forth?

    5. Do you suggest that crime-victims, parents of murdered teens should quietly go home with their tale between their legs, mourn in private and suspected criminals not prosecuted?

    6. Do you have any criteria in mind for the prosecution of crimes? If yes, which are they?

    Your reply would be very much appreciated.

    • Zhickel says:

      SearchingMind:
      You are asking for an encyclopaedia, not a reply.

      The regular posters here are on the same side; it’s not fair to judge any of them (especially BettyKath and Whonoze, two extremely level headed contributors) by their level of outrage not living up to your expectations.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Zhickel
        The questions are clear and well-grounded on the post from Whonoze. You can either answer them or stay out of the debate. “Levels of outrage” “not living up to my” presumed “expectation” (whatever that means) have nothing to do with anything here.

  48. George it time to go to jail, pack your bags. maybe we can put osterman and w11/jeremy next to you. it only takes two to commit a conspiracy!

  49. Malisha says:

    I had not looked closely at the debate raging here (turning into an argument from a debate, unfortunately) about Zimmerman’s ability to get a fair trial and about Zimmerman’s deserving a fair trial. Even now I’m not sure who’s saying what to whom but that said, BettyKath is one of my favorite posters but I’m not in the debate/argument for any purpose than to chip in a few details:

    1 – As I may have revealed already, I do not trust our courts, and I do believe that many if not most trials held in them (regardless of state or jurisdiction but certainly including Florida) have great potential for unfairness;

    2 – Actually I do believe that money has a lot to do with whether you can get a RELATIVELY fair trial or not, regardless of what kind of case it is (civil or criminal) or whether you’re plaintiff-prosecution or defense; but there are some small comforts involved:

    (a) Plenty of paid lawyers are worse than public defenders or legal aid attorneys;

    (b) People with millions of dollars can be railroaded too; and

    (c) Defense spending for indigents does actually include expert witness fees. In fact, I have a friend who is a high-priced forensic psychiatrist with a law degree as well as a medical degree. His rate for “federal work” is over $500, WITH paid travel. Under the “Criminal Justice Act” he has recently been called out of state three (3) times for a defendant who was charged after a year-long investigation before his arrest. He is even paid that rate to read the documents generated by the investigation! Of course, we all know that requests for experts can be unjustifiably denied, but there has been no such request by O’Mara and if there were such a request, I can bet it would NOT be denied. Whereas I don’t know the budget a Seminole County criminal court would have for expert witnesses for the defense, that has not yet come up in the case so I doubt that it is a problem for O’Mara, who can probably get all the help he needs “pro bono” by appealing to such sources as the gun lobby and Fox News.

    3 – The biggest problem I can foresee in getting George a fair trial would be the following: IF, as Osterman said, George used to have so many “dearly loved” Black friends that he could call out a demonstration through the streets of Sanford that would be bigger than the ones held for Trayvon Martin, then probably almost every African American living in Seminole County has already been one of George’s “dearly loved” friends. They would be ruled out from jury duty in that case. The remaining few who weren’t “dearly loved” friends of George’s probably did demonstrate for Trayvon Martin so THEY would be ruled out from jury duty in that case. Therefore, only non-African Americans would be available for jury duty. Among those, you’d probably have to rule out the Mexicans (thanks to his comments on FaceBook) and perhaps “white Hispanics” (thanks to his stated wish that his mother had named him “Jorge” so he wouldn’t have been called a racist). Then you’d have to rule out anybody who had sent in money to his web-page. Whoever watches Fox News has to go because they can’t credibly say they haven’t formed an opinion about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence when he’s practically been canonized. Who’s left? A few liberal white Southerners who would automatically believe George was guilty because Hannity liked him?

    You got no jury!

    On the other hand, I don’t believe there will be a problem. I think there will be a plea deal, probably one that nobody could predict in a million years.

    • SearchingMind says:

      “Actually I do believe that money has a lot to do with whether you can get a RELATIVELY fair trial or not, regardless of what kind of case it is (civil or criminal) or whether you’re plaintiff-prosecution or defense; but there are some small comforts involved:”

      I agree. BUT that problem is not embedded in the system as such. If it were so, the Constitution of the United States shall have been- and still would be denying fair-trial to millions of Americans who cannot afford the cost of effective defense in criminal (civil and administrative) proceeding. Surely, you do not think that’s the case. As you rightly pointed out “(a) Plenty of paid lawyers are worse than public defenders or legal aid attorneys; (b) People with millions of dollars can be railroaded too”.

      • Malisha says:

        SearchingMind, you said, “Surely, you do not think that’s the case.”

        I may be confused at this point about what you mean and what you think I mean. I surely DO believe that millions of Americans are denied anything even FAINTLY resembling fair trials, mostly because of money and also because of other flaws in the system (and in us and in our stars, etc.). I do. I do not expect justice in our court system; occasionally it does result but probably not any more often than it would by flipping coins. There’s no way to test that theory because we cannot get a good control group.

        I believe if George Zimmerman gets a trial at all, it is as likely to be fair TO HIM as any trial anywhere in this country could be to any defendant, if only because there will be massive money behind his effort, two excellent defense attorneys, and lots and lots and lots of publicity. The problem, for those of us who realize that George already got, and is already getting, a much more advantageous deal than most criminal defendants (especially in Florida) get is this: OTHERS DO NOT GET THAT MUCH FAIRNESS.

    • JUN says:

      I agree that it is much easier when you have money and connections within anything, however, you have stated the howevers, and the fact remains of the constitution. I myself have argued in court with no knowledge of law and used constitution only and won.

      • princss6 says:

        @ Malisha

        “OTHERS DO NOT GET THAT MUCH FAIRNESS.”

        Exactly and that George is held up as some symbol for all of those who do not get nearly the sort of treatment he has is beyond ridiculous!

  50. bettykath says:

    Searchingmind, Feel better now?

    You’ve missed my main point but I don’t think you’re interested in seeing it. Some of the bloggers here are as rabid as those on the pro-Z blogs. So sad. Think I’ll just read the professors post from now on.

    • jm says:

      bettykath says: “Some of the bloggers here are as rabid as those on the pro-Z blog.”

      Really I did not notice anyone who did not give an opinion in a rationale/logical way and I missed “rabid” posts. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and that is what this board is about, right – even if the opinion is different than yours it should give you something to think about.

      I want George Zimmerman to get a fair trial and I hope that in the end his lies will be exposed and he is sent to prison. I would hate for anyone to be encouraged to do as Zimmerman did if GZ is not held responsible for the killing of Trayvon Martin – who did not get a fair trial because he was misjudged as “suspicious” by an armed George Zimmerman who brought this whole nastiness on himself.

      I hope I am not sounding rabid or facist because I don’t mean to be hateful. I’m just giving an opinion.

      • bettykath says:

        “Some of the bloggers here are as rabid as those on the pro-Z blog.”

        I apologize for this statement. The zeal for punishing GZ is just as strong as those wanting him to walk but the language is much more civilized. There is actual dialog here that seems to be missing elsewhere.

        • Patricia says:

          @BettyKath –

          Gracious and strong of you to apologize, BettyKath. Your entire discourse clearly represents your passion for justice – for Trayvon Martin, and beyond. What’s a few word bombs among friends? We are all students of Professor Leatherman, and we’re all in this together. There was a lot of heat, and vigorous argument was had by all.

          It reminds me that I should apologize for my frequent 4-letter vocabulary.

          Although I really, really do consider Zimmerman a slug.

    • bettykath says:

      Searchingmind,

      Your post is awesome. It reminds me of an incident in high school. The history teacher asked a specific question about the reading assignment. The student chosen to answer the question stood and gave an excellent summary of the entire chapter. But he missed the point of the question. Lots of words, all accurate, but they didn’t answer the question that was asked. (He’s now a retired attorney).

      • Maybe you should have stated your question CLEARER. Like I said, I saw TWO points expressed in your original post. Maybe you are like a teacher who gives an unclear assignment; don’t be surprised when you get answers that you didn’t expect. I, too, haven’t seen any “rabid” answers or character tainting slander like you could on any number of pro-Z blogs, or even on CNN. When some raw comments are made, they are either in jest OR as a response to a truly emotional bit of evidence. Our “job” on this blog is NOT to alter the “big picture” of the flaws in the legal systemt. This blog’s intent (unless I have stepped into the wrong classroom) is to dissect the available evidence and see what happened that night in February. “Fixing the Justice System” in in the room down the hall.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Betty, I do not feel better at all. I feel awful that I have to disagree with someone of enormous intelligence like you. Indeed I have read and appreciated most of your comments and I think that you – like all the participants here – do have a searching, analytical mind a good attorney must have. I understood perfectly the point you were making. By I think that you made that point in NOT such a good tactical manner and in a case where the murdered minor was treated like a sub-human and the defendant has received the kind of fair-trail most Americans can only but dream of, that the point you set out to make got lost in the middle.

      This case is unique. Almost all of my friends/family members do not like even MENTIONING this case in the house. But that death-scream on the 911-tape hunts me – and I don’t care about the race of that kid. What happened to him is sheer evil. This is neither a case where it could be suggested that Zimmerman is not getting fair trial nor a case to be used as an instrument to attain the goals of “the big picture” (whatever that is).

    • SearchingMind says:

      “Some of the bloggers here are as rabid as those on the pro-Z blogs. So sad. Think I’ll just read the professors post from now on.”

      And you are now also claiming to be a sanctimonious victim? Victim of throwing out views out there and running away from the debate when the same views are challenged. So sad. Indeed.

    • bettykath — It is not the prosecution right out there advertising their case against GZ. He has, his lawyer has, his few friends have, and his family has. They have publically displayed their ability to misstate facts as presented through discovery. As a result, they have opened themselves up to negative opinion from the public.

    • Xena says:

      Some of the bloggers here are as rabid as those on the pro-Z blogs.

      Bettykath. I’m sorry but your complaint is unsubstantiated.

      When you find something posted here as bad as the following, then your complaint about bloggers here will be more credible.

      http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthread.php?276251-Niggers-want-permanent-memorial-or-cross-for-traycoon

    • JUN says:

      LOL

      I think you are reaching a bit with your statements or claims of rabidness or that we don’t want to give Z fair treatment or that Z is not getting any fair treatment

      Zimmerman has gotten more than fair treatment, although most people would want to strangle him, it has not happened

      No one is disagreeing with you that people abuse power (Zimmerman abused his powers over Trayvon in this case), however, to say Zimmerman is not getting fair treatment, is laughable ROFL

      Perhaps you are kidding, but we are talking about a man who got over $200,000 US, was allowed to leave the state on his first bond, was allowed to walk free for so long after having killed someone and giving a sketchy story, and even went on air on television and has not been attacked by anyone, considering what he has done.

      Zimmerman has gotten the benefit of the doubt on ridiculous motions and I would say he is getting better treatment than he ever gave Trayvon. Investigation wise, Zimmerman had many days to concoct a story, tamper with evidence, lie multiple times, and even get lawyers without paying a single dime.

      The simple fact is that to many, his presumption of guilt is great, and the evidence is strong.

      No one here has demonized his family, they do it themselves with their actions.

      How are you suppose to do PR for a child stalker murderer, incest rapist, scam artist liar like Zimmerman?

      His family lies and grifts people and have smug attitudes…

      I dont even need to use any bad words, as just using descriptions of their actions makes you think badly of them

  51. SearchingMind says:

    @ BettyKath. Re: “fair trial?”

    “ (…). I want Zimmerman to have a fair trial. That means he has to be able to have his own experts, and that means that there has to be fundraising. They also have more expenses due to the very high profile of the case. So, I don’t begrudge the Zimmerman team their efforts at fundraising (…).”

    Utter sanctimonious nonsense that is rooted in sheer fantasy, BettyKath! And I will tell you why.

    1. Zimmerman was not arrested after killing a minor. He (Zimmerman) was given quasi-VIP treatment by the police on the night of the homicide; crucial evidence that would help establish guilt/innocence were not collected; no drug-/alcohol tests were performed on Zimmerman; cries of death of the said minor were the attributed to Zimmerman by the police that had the urgent need to “correct” a witness and lecture the witness that it was Zimmerman screaming and begging for his life; Zimmerman was allowed to wash off valuable DNA material on his hands and the cuffs of his jacket sleeves, etc. It took worldwide protest, the threat of civil disobedience in Florida and the courage of an old righteous lady called Angela Corey to get the wheels of criminal justice rolling against Zimmerman. No fair trial for Zimmerman? Just a minute, I will come back to that;

    2. Before his indictment, Zimmerman was heavily represented in the media by (professional) surrogates (Joe Oliver, F. Taafe, family members, etc.) and by TWO professional civil- and criminal attorneys (Hal Ulrig & Co.);

    3. Upon indictment, another TWO criminal attorneys of Zimmerman’s own choosing took over the legal representation Zimmerman. The said counsels are being described as “some of the best criminal law attorneys in town”;

    4. Three websites (i.e. Gzlegalcase, therealgeorgezimmerman, and O’Mara’s site) and a FB-page are devoted to the defense of Zimmerman;

    5. Since the indictment, Zimmerman has had the unpaid support of some of the best lawyers in the world (e.g. Prof. Allan Dershowitz) and major cable news networks (e.g. Fox) who have engaged in sustained fierce public relations onslaught against Mrs. Corey geared towards her professional destruction. This is unique, unheard of, in the entire history of the United States;

    6. While incarcerated, Zimmerman appears in Court in civilian clothes; almost all the motions filed by Zimmerman has been granted by the trial Court;

    7. Zimmerman was granted a $150.000.-bail for killing a minor (and you might consider asking Trayvon Benjamin Martin what his life is worth). Most criminal defendants accused of murder2 stay in jail until (after) the trial;

    8. Within 2-3 months after killing a minor, Zimmerman engaged – based alone on the fact that the said minor is black – in a commercial enterprise that raised over $250.000.- from people “who would have done the same” (i.e. people who would hunt down and kill black teens and/or just hate black people and/or just want to give Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson a bleeding nose, etc.). Remove the race of Trayvon Benjamin Martin from the equation, the sum total of the donations to Zimmerman will be $00.00.- With the raised money, Zimmerman was able to “pay off all the depths”, live in expensive hotels guarded by one of the best security firms in Florida, buy expensive telephones and bullet-proof vests, pay for telephone- and internet subscription for 2-3yrs in advance, etc. This is quite unique in the entire history of the United States of America. I would like you to point out to me an example of a case where hundreds of thousands of dollars have been donated to a murder-suspect in the entire history of the United States ($10 for each example).

    9. Zimmerman manipulated the Judge and flouted the criminal justice system by conspiring with his wife to commit perjury and furnish the Court with information they knew to be false. Despite that, Zimmerman was still granted yet another bail!

    10. Upon crying “bias” Zimmerman motioned for- and was granted another trial Judge;

    11. The United States Constitution guarantees the rights of every criminal defendants to fair trial. Since I do not know from which country you are posting from, I shall here apply legal terms that are internationally accepted. Many legal principles flow forth from the principle of ‘fair trial’/‘due process’. Among them is the principle of “equality of arm” – which in lay-man’s term means that the defendant must be accorded equal opportunity to (get and provide evidence to) prove his innocence. Zimmerman has been accorded this opportunity to the fullest in the present case and there is nothing to suggest that he would not be in the future. Among others, the prosecution has thoroughly investigated the crime Zimmerman is accused of. Most of the incriminatory- and exculpatory evidence have been turned over to Zimmerman. At a certain point, Zimmerman shall have received all- and the same evidence the prosecution has. If the defence is not satisfied with certain aspects/results of the investigation, e.g. DNA-test, it could always ask for extra tests or it could have its own experts do more testing and report on the findings thereof. The cost of the later is paid for by the State/Court. AS SUCH, in the US (and the rest of the Western World), there is no reason for a criminal defendant to raise money outside the criminal justice system on the ground that he/she needs the money to pay for effective criminal defence.

    Miscarriage of justice (and I truly appreciate your general concern for the protection of the poor and the “weak”) in this country has everything to do with greedy/avaricious counsel and/or incompetent counsel and/or prosecution and/or judge and/or biased jury and/or biased judge. It is never really about lack of funds – because the law provides for enough money for everyone to get fair trial – irrespective of class, gender, age, race, ethnicity, etc. Indeed, in the US, there have been many cases where penniless defendants who were charged with murder-1 and had no single dime donated to them, were found NOT guilty of any crimes and cleared of all charges, and cases where rich (innocent) defendants were found guilty, despite their money.

    On the above grounds, I reject – with the most stringent of vehemence – your suggestion that (a) Zimmerman may not be getting fair-trial and (b) YOU ALONE wants Zimmerman to get fair trial and other participants here don’t. That suggestion is disingenuous, self-serving and is rotted neither in the law nor on the facts. Zimmerman has every opportunity/possibility he reasonably needs to mount an effective defense. The rights accorded to Zimmerman in the present case are almost unparalleled in the entire history of the United States, while his ability to raise money outside the criminal justice system (from gun-nuts, neo-Nazis, etc.) has NOTHING to do with getting- or not getting a fair trial. So pls., BettyKath, drop that condescending holier-than-thou-attitude and climb down from that presumptuous moral high-ground – for such is cheap, very easy and stifles legitimate debate, IMO!

    • rachael says:

      ^ What he said!

    • AWESOME rebuttal! I’m not sure about “the entire history of the US” part but the rest is very accurate. GZ is getting a fair trial, and because it is so public, he is getting both money and scrutiny that others would not. I see your original post to involve to points wrapped up in one statement. 1) the state of our current legal system, and 2) assurances that GZ would get a fair trial. In response to 1) this forum is not the place to change the legal system although it’s a good place to discuss the flaws that we see with it and 2) I feel that all of us want a fair trial for GZ if for no other reason than to spare the Martin family any further pain should there be issues on appeal OR a retrial.

    • Wow – SearchingMind. You are So..o..o right on and I thank you for the post.

    • Xena says:

      @SearchingMind. (Applause)

  52. Malisha says:

    “He probably thought the jail calls really weren’t recorded or, if they were, that no one listened to them, or if they were listened to, no one would figure out their code.”

    Oh, I think it’s his hubris showing up again. Although he was forced to go to jail and pretend he was really going to be prosecuted by that terrible Corey woman he did not have a chance to charm personally yet, he was still thinking, “Hey I’m in the Seminole County Jail; these are my folks here, my jailers; they’re here to help me get this to go away; they would never cooperate with the a55holes who are trying to railroad me just because I killed some punk.”

    I don’t think George has dropped that attitude YET. And strangely, he may still be right. We may all get whiplash to see how it plays out if his “they-have-to-protect-me-in-the-final-analysis-because-we’re-in-this-together” position prevails and he walks for “time served” and maybe some community service “mentoring.”

    • cielo62 says:

      If he is found guilty the judge’s hands are tied by Florida’s minimum sentencing requirements. Unless GZ gets a saccharine sweet deal that busts his actions to criminal trespass, there is no way he can get away with anything less than 25 years.

  53. Malisha says:

    Rachel, it could be that he personally called SMITH, too. NOT on the NEN, but perhaps he had Smith’s cell phone number.

    To me, the thought is almost irresistible that even now, the prosecution is protecting the SPD, and several individuals in the Department and in the State’s Attorney’s office, while prosecuting George. Smith could be one; Wolfinger is definitely one; Lee is past protecting probably (except that he is not being prosecuted for anything himself, unless the feds come in with a surprise 1981 suit).

    ??

    • rachael says:

      It could be a lot of things – but he never said anything about getting out to meet a police officer. He later said to have them call him and he would tell them where he was, so of all the things it could have been, I do not believe it was that – as well as was pointed out, what happened to he got out to look for an address?

      • rachael says:

        And I think the video was suggesting who the “police officer” he called may have been 😉

      • bettykath says:

        Good catch by llmpapa and he might be right in his suggestion of who the police officer might have been. So when did he make this call, before or after the NEN call?

    • jm says:

      If GZ called Smith, that has to be on cell phone records right? Where was GZ going to meet the police officer since he allegedly did not have an address to give the dispatcher?. Has GZ screwed up again, caught yet another lie?

    • Xena says:

      OT on the NEN, but perhaps he had Smith’s cell phone number.

      IIRC, Smith did not arrive on RVC and walk through from that direction.

  54. rachael says:

    Ooohhhh!

  55. LLMPapa says:

    Sorry for the delay, but it’s up now.

    • jm says:

      I loved the look on MOM’s face while GZ talked – priceless.

      Love to have a professional interpret the body language on GZ and MOM.

      Thanks LLMpapa.

      PS: Somewhere I thought I read or heard George say Osterman was at his home that evening. Is Osterman’s location documented at the time of the shooting.

    • Xena says:

      Well, that would explain why GZ had to get off the phone so fast after telling the dispatcher to have the cops call him for his location.

      IMO, GZ already located Trayvon by either hearing Trayvon’s phone ring, or hearing Trayvon talking on his phone.

      One thing that GZ ALWAYS omits from his “getting an address” story is why he did not call NEN back with that address while standing in front of that house? Why would he need to walk back to his truck before calling NEN with the address? And why, since he claims having a bad memory and not remembering the names of streets, would he depend on his memory retaining a house address during his walk back to his truck?

      Oh, I know why he omits the idea of calling NEN with the house address while standing in front of it. Because he could not then use the part of the story about not remembering what pocket his cell phone was in giving Trayvon time to sucker punch him. Then too, GZ would have to explain how he was sucker punched on RVC rather than a dark area where Trayvon jumped out of the bushes.

  56. Malisha says:

    I was just over on the “SkewedDistribution” thread for a minute checking something about Trent Sawyer, and something that never occurred to me was in the comments. Folks, consider this question for a minute: Does either Taaffe or Osterman own a taser? It would seem to me quite probable that Osterman would. Think of it — somebody tasers Martin to herd him back toward where George is when he gets away — or threatens him with the taser to get him back there? And no vehicles are searched after the shooting; and nobody’s back porches are checked or searched; and no individuals other than George Zimmerman even go down to the station house under surveillance, or get frisked, or anything like that. And the police need to ask bystanders for a first aid kit? No kit in the squad cars? And “CPR was attempted.” By which officer?

  57. whonoze says:

    @bettykath
    Keep up the good fight. I’m not sure whether the commenters here actually have fascist tendencies, or are just so blinded by their hate for GZ they can’t see the big picture. The fact is there is a lot of over-zealous prosecution in this country, a lot of prosecutorial misconduct, and the victims are overwhelmingly from subordinate social groups: poor, non-white, etc. Check the classic Errol Morris film ‘The Thin Blue Line’ – which ought to make anybody check their hubris about anything – and look into some of the cases in Illinois that led the conservative governor there to suspend the death penalty because so many innocent men were on death row.

    • JUN says:

      Issues like that should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Everyone is speaking on this particular case and I think Zimmerman has gotten more than fair treatment. This incident is moreso of having the quality of not enough zeal and no proper conduct. There is misconduct within all facets of industry and life.

    • Malisha says:

      I agree, Whonoze, that prosecutorial misconduct is just out of control in the whole country, and most notably in cases where the defendant (a) is a minority or a despised person per se; (b) is unable to get his or her own attorney; or (c) is somehow considered “against” the establishment. Under these circumstances, not only is there no “level playingfield,” but it’s essentially a bullfight, and like a bullfight, it’s done for public show and for the purpose of hero-manufacturing, to dominate and control those of us who never actually get into the defendant’s dock but who need to be frightened on a regular basis. Of course, this is not the case in Zimmerman; he was a friend of the cops and the prosecutors and they were protecting HIM against the law, not protecting the public against HIM.

      • princss6 says:

        I WOULD love to get feedback from people in those social groups who feel that GZ is somehow the pin-up boy for their cause. Quite frankly, I find it offensive to even compare their plight to someone who would just as soon murder them and claim self-defense than identify with them!

    • Vicky says:

      Whonoze – Fascist? Blinded by hate for Zimmerman? Can’t see the big picture? Give me a break! Last I checked, the discussions here have in no way maintained that there is equal justice for all. Disproportionality is a huge problem in our criminal justice system and I don’t believe a single commenter here has argued otherwise. For you to assert otherwise Is nothing more than hubris on your part.
      Rather than make a blanket generalization about individuals you know absolutely nothing about, you might make an effort to ask for their points of view on our criminal justice system and ask whether or not they have actively advocated for change other than via anonymous comments on a blog. Specifically, what have you done? Have you ever lobbied Congress or your state legislature on behalf of individuals with financial, racial, cultural, ethnic, social, mental or educational challenges who find themselves in the criminal justice system? Have you publicly and openly expressed your concerns regarding disproportionality in your local community. Have you volunteered your time to educate young people or anyone else about their rights, if and when they ever come in contact with law enforcement? I have and have been publicly recognized for my efforts. What specifically, other than commenting on blogs, have you done?
      My opinion of George Zimmerman are based upon his actions not hate for the man. I want him to receive a fair trial and I want the outcome of his case to be based upon the law, and not public opinion. I might think he created this mess by his actions, but my opinion is not what counts in a legal sense. I have as much right to express my opinion as GZ has to a fair trial. Additionally, I do not view this case as one that is in any way a reflection of the disparity that exists in our system of justice. In my opinion, Trayvon Martin’s rights were violated that evening, and I feel GZ should face some form of punishment. Whether or not he does is up to a judge and possibly a jury. No fascist motivation on my part. Neither do I think the professor’s blog has been created to spur some fascist movement.

      • cielo62 says:

        THANK YOU! You expressed my feelings better than I could! “Fascist” SMH.

      • Why bother having Public Defenders at all then. Seems some here lack a whole lotta confidence in their abilities. In my opinion, it is a poorly chosen jury that needs to be addressed as well. They are the ultimate decision-makers, are they not.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The problem is, many people think that public defenders come from some pool of dysfunctional attorneys or such. They don’t! Many attorneys in these “pools” are volunteers from some big law firms and/or very highly rated and priced criminal defense lawyers who do this work either pro bono, or have given their name to the courts and/or the public defenders office that they are available for such duty. If I recall, F. Lee Bailey and Kunsler did lots of public defender work, even after they became famous they still accepted public defender cases.

          I’ll let the Professor correct me if I’m wrong.

      • Was MOM not going to represent GZ when he was declared indigent. Same lawyer – paid by the state or paid by GZ. Are you all saying that MOM would not represent his client as well if paid by the state or pro bono.

        • jm says:

          Sandra Graham says: “Was MOM not going to represent GZ when he was declared indigent.” Actually, according to GZ recorded prison call, MOM knew GZ was not indigent and had money coming into Paypal from his website – still want to know what comes of that?

      • Personally, I have heard little trashing of GZs family on this blog. I have heard much about the statements made by them and how they do not jive with the known evidence in this case. I think there is a difference. Trayvon, his friends and his family are not on trial. I have read alot of really ugly, ugly comments made about Trayvon, his family, and friends. GZ was not murdered. He certainly appears to have more rights and freedoms than the deceased.

    • bettykath says:

      whonoze,

      Thanks for understanding my point. There is a bigger picture that is playing itself out in this case and, amazingly, in the comments section of this blog.

      There is the much bigger picture of middle class defendants going broke and poor people just not getting the resources for a strong defense. I guess it’s human nature to think it’s ok when you believe the defendant is guilty, but that’s the test of the kind of justice system people really want. It seems that if I didn’t get the resources that I needed, then a scumbag like GZ shouldn’t get them either. So where does it start? There are thousands of people who have been treated unfairly by the so-called justice system. If they all raise an objection to anyone getting a fairer chance than they got, no change will happen.

      I’ve been concerned about the demonizing of the Zimmermans, expressed mostly as criticism of their fundraising. There seems to be a conflating of the actions of the Zimmermans with that of the rabid bloggers.

      There is no room here for seeing the Zimmermans as people caught in a hard place. The Zs don’t seem to be the brightest people around, especially when it comes to interacting with the public. The statement by Jr. was probably well intended but it was poorly executed and backfired. The parents website was probably not put up by them but by some well-intended family member who wanted to help them out, with or without the consent of the parents. After all, their expenses escalated too. Not a good move but they believe that their GZ is being unjustly prosecuted and they received some of the fallout.

      GZ is a seriously damaged person with sociopathic tendencies imo. Either he was wired that way or by his meds which make him unable to feel “normal” emotions. He’s also naive or not very bright. I don’t think he realized that the NEN call was recorded, He probably thought the jail calls really weren’t recorded or, if they were, that no one listened to them, or if they were listened to, no one would figure out their code. Telling Serino that he was a graduate when he was not. Something that’s easily checked. Lying in court about the money. Spending as much money as they did on non-essentials. They really thought no one would be paying attention. Totally naive about the level of surveillance or not very bright, probably both.

      As I’ve said, I think GZ is guilty of at least murder 2 but demonizing him and his family puts us in a parallel gutter with those who demonize Trayvon. I’m not talking about the character of George or Trayvon. I’m talking about the words of the bloggers here.

      • rachael says:

        “He probably thought the jail calls really weren’t recorded or, if they were, that no one listened to them, or if they were listened to, no one would figure out their code.”

        That would just be stupidity on his part then because it is common knowledge PLUS he had taken courses in criminal justice and had friends and family and you would think he, more than anyone, would know this – as well, it is usally posted right there next to the phone that the calls are monitored.

      • rachael says:

        Also –

        “The parents website was probably not put up by them but by some well-intended family member who wanted to help them out, with or without the consent of the parents. After all, their expenses escalated too. Not a good move but they believe that their GZ is being unjustly prosecuted and they received some of the fallout.”

        I won’t say much about this and I do understand that they were trying to come up with money somehow as their expenses escalated too. IMO, doing it or having someome do it with our without your consent is just bad form. Not that it matters what I think, of course, but my point is, if you put it out in public, expect for the public to react, be it favorably or not.

        And as for “The statement by Jr. was probably well intended but it was poorly executed and backfired.” – Look, these aren’t a bunch of igorant country bumpkins who just fell off a turnip truck and don’t know any better. This is a whole family who has worked in this field for years. They are well versed as to the ins and outs of how this works and should know that keeping your mouth shut is the best way to getting a “fair” trial.

        And GZ hasn’t kept his mouth shut from the very start. He should never have said a word without getting a lawyer.

        I had to erase the rest of my response – but suffice it to say, I don’t feel too sorry for him/them. They brought it on themselves.

      • Vicky says:

        I believe strongly in the presumption of innocence. I have no issue with individuals exercising their rights to donate their money or to GZ any other legal cause they feel strongly about. I am also in favor of a rigorous defense for all defendants.
        My interest in this case is not about fundraising for a defense, an attorney doing his best to advocate for and defend his client or a defendant charged with a crime where the accused was identified via an investigation by LE. We all know who shot Trayvom Martin. The question here is whether or not he did so in self defense. Making such a determination is not a simple process, and many questions must be answered in order to satisfy the applicable laws.

        Since no one here knows for certain what GZ was thinking or what motivated his actions/reactions that evening or in the months that followed, most are relying on their own experiences and sense of logic. Arriving at conclusions that do not favor GZ or his family/supporters are no less valid than those that do.
        We don’t know if GZ is “seriously damaged” and may never know whether he is or not. It could be that his multiple versions of what happened that night and why are somehow true, but his actions and statements do not paint a favorable picture, and he is his own messenger in that regard. We don’t know his family or the motivation behind public statements made by or attributed to them. Again, a matter of perspective and/or speculation.

        Hopefully, All applicable laws and criminal procedures will be followed in legal proceedings. The collateral issues regarding the criminal justice system, it’s strengths and weaknesses will play out in a separate forum, including blog discussions.

        I find the most important issues about this specific case to be: 1) whether or not the victim was engaged in any unlawful activity when observed by and/or came into physical contact with the accused. 2) whether or not the race of a shooting victim in any way influenced the initial investigation or decision to not charge the individual who admitted to shooting him. (a social not legal issue) 3) whether or not the accused was reasonable in the use of lethal force. 4) Whether or not SYG laws need to be more clearly defined and whether there is disparity in their application (social issue).

      • rachael says:

        I mean I guess if you are talking about fair, I don’t think it is fair to go on TV, put up websites, have family and friends go on TV and then tell people not to try this case in the media when you have put it out there.

      • No need to fund raise. Pathetic. There are public defenders for the indigent. There is better security in a jail with meals supplied, etc. all compliments of the state. For the family to go public, they have exposed themselves to be judged in the court of public opinion. As a member of the public, I think GZ and his fund-raising efforts are nothing short of begging — Please, I do not want to be in jail for murdering Trayvon.

      • gblock says:

        There was an announcement at the beginning of each jail phone call that it was being recorded. Did he not believe it?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          He believed it I think, he just thought that the SP would take his word for his financial condition and not seek to verify it. Once the SP saw those credit card payments, they knew money had come in from somewhere, so they went and took a look at his phone tapes and that was it, they broke his code and bingo, into the soup he went.

      • Xena says:

        @Vicky.

        Since no one here knows for certain what GZ was thinking or what motivated his actions/reactions that evening or in the months that followed, most are relying on their own experiences and sense of logic.

        GZ said what motivated his actions. “These assholes. They always get away.” And when Trayvon ran, GZ said “f’ing punks.” Both times, GZ used plural form. GZ did not judge Trayvon as an individual. He saw Trayvon as representing a group who GZ already decided were assholes and punks.

        These are GZ’s own words, memorialized on the recording of his NEN call. Should we toss this to the side for fear that discussing it will be construed as “demonizing” GZ?

    • cielo62 says:

      I can’t speak for everyone but I don’t care about the “larger picture.” I care first and foremost about justice in THIS case. GZ has more than enough money to defend himself. It’s his own fault if he misspends those funds. Like stated in another thread, the only way to change the system is to actually protest to upper levels of government. To insure justice, we fight for it case by case. GZ is well armed (excuse the pun) to take on the prosecution. I don’t understand what you are asking for from this forum. The Professor would be the first to tell you the Justice system is whacked. Which is why we are gathered online to follow and speak up. I personally have signed, written and called( attempted because the lines were busy from do many of us calling) to get justice in this case.

      • Had there been no out cry for justice, GZ would have been able to just walk away. Perhaps being watch dogs will go a long way to bring about reform within a broken system – top to bottom.

      • Tell me — where would this case be had GZ NOT made that NEN call that night. There would be little evidence to work with and GZ would have the advantage and would probably prevail.

    • Xena says:

      Misconduct by the prosecution? Like SA Wolfinger? Yes, this isa case of misconduct. It’s misconduct by the SPD and SA Wolfinger; but not misconduct in the investigation resulting in charging GZ with 2nd degree murder.

      The Rolando Cruz case, (which you infer regarding former Ill. Gov Ryan repealing the death penalty), consisted of misconduct by the Sheriff (DuPage County) withholding evidence that cleared Cruz of the crime. Cruz was only cleared by opting for a bench trial, as 2 juries in 2 different counties (Winnebago being one) found him guilty.

      That case was devastating, and many Illinois citizens have not forgotten. (Which is why Judy Barr-Topinka lost her bid as Governor on a ticket with the former DuPage County SA as Lt. Gov.)

      Whonoze, this case if very different. GZ admitted that he killed Trayvon. His claim of self-defense was bought by SA Wolfinger hook, line and sinker, without investigation of any forensic evidence.

    • princss6 says:

      GZ is not the poster child for….subordinate social groups: poor, non-white, etc.

      I would say most here are well aware of how subordinate groups are treated and it is my opinion that if everyone was treated like those groups are, our justice system would not be as punitive.

      That being said, we are talking apples and oranges here…the only parallels to this case and has yet to be played out is if a black victim will receive justice because the justice system has been more than fair to GZ, in fact it needs to see a chiropractor for all the bending over backwards it has done for him.

  58. Trent Sawyer (stateoftheinternet) has just posted another great video on YouTube. Those who support Zimmerman cling to the belief that George was severely beaten and bloodied. Yet, in the Serino interview, Serino asks Zimmerman if he has any bruises anywhere and Zimmerman says he does not. Beaten and bloodied – yet ZERO bruising – right from the horses mouth.

  59. Artavia Anderson says:

    Professor I just read a story from the Washington Post about Mark Osterman’s book and he states that Zimmerman told him that “Somehow I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear sight and the hammer. ” I was wondering can this be used against Zimmerman because it is something that he never said in his statements to police? This Zimmerman character is a handfull and lies so much. This doesn’t even match the DNA testing. I would love to hear your insights on this statement…. Thanks in advance.

    • Wow — again, Osterman has changed his own story from the one taken by the FDLE sworn statement. Was he lying then or is he lying now. Is his statement not worth the paper it is written on.

  60. thejbmission says:

    Thank you Professor,
    For another excellent article, I especially like this part 😎

    Damned if he testifies and damned if he does not, George Michael Zimmerman is in such a hell of a jam that no amount lawyers, guns and money will save him from a lengthy prison sentence.

    Your blog answers all of my questions and more.

  61. Malisha says:

    The thing about people like Osterman (yes, et al.) being paranoid is that it is a combination of two things happening:

    1 – They are projecting their hostility and animus outward onto other people, so they imagine that others are as hostile and virulent as THEY FEEL so they presume everyone’s dangerous; and

    2 – They really are nasty folks so they do make enemies and therefore, they do HAVE enemies and someone really DOES have it out for them.

    Remember Osterman said that if someone came to the door for him, they should rest up first because there was going to be a big fight? Look how he thinks. Like a bad boy about 7 years old imagining he’s about to be punished and planning to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

    Normals don’t need to constantly fantasize about their self-defense. Either he’s a non-normal or he’s been watching too much gangster TV or playing too many psycho video games.

  62. Vicky says:

    Patricia, my thoughts exactly!
    I get the impression the Osterman’s do not lack in firepower in their house. And they all spent plenty of time on the firing range (Shellie included). Funny, they didn’t immediately call 911, fearing they had been discovered. IMO, they were fully prepared to defend the fort. Thank goodness the people in the car weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses, and innocently came knocking on the door. Can you imagine!?!?

  63. Malisha says:

    Oooh Oooh Oooh, I just realized something.

    Shellie said, at the bond hearing, that she did not know how much was in the PayPal account because she wasn’t directly involved. When she was asked if she spoke with George about it she said that she had not seen George since the shooting because he had been in hiding! Osterman says they were in hiding with him together, right?

    Hmmmm…

    • More lies… George pack your bags it time to go to jail…for life…

      • Xena says:

        @cielo62

        Thank you. I saw the Canadian source, 84 pages! Of course, GZ might have just been a gang banger wanna be as well.

        Based on GZ’s MySpace entries about getting his boys to do things, serve a year and never snitch on him, I suspect that he was heading up his own little gang. That would have been the time he was in Virginia and according to his MySpace entries, also having Mexicans pulling knives on him.

        According to one source I read, the tattoo that GZ has is intended for protection while incarcerated; conveying gang neutrality while at the same time, gravitating towards Latin gang members for protection from rival gangs.

    • Vicky says:

      According to Osterman, they were in hiding together until shortly after the NBP “bounty”. Not long after that, GZ was outside when a car pulled up with African American occupants. GZ ran in the house convinced they had been found by a band of bounty hunters. As it turns out, Osterman’s neighbors actually had black friends who had stopped by for a visit. The event was so traumatic for the paranoia stricken hideaways, that GZ, armed with his new firearm, left the following morning w/o Shellie and went into hiding up north..

      • Patricia says:

        @Vickie – Re “Not long after that, GZ was outside when a car pulled up with African American occupants. GZ ran in the house convinced they had been found by a band of bounty hunters. As it turns out, Osterman’s neighbors actually had black friends who had stopped by for a visit. The event was so traumatic for the paranoia stricken hideaways, that GZ, armed with his new firearm, left the following morning w/o Shellie and went into hiding up north…. ”

        Bravely leaving SHELLIE behind to face the, OMG! “the black friends … ”

        Give that hero a tin medal.

        Hasn’t the guts to face anybody but a juvenile.

      • Xena says:

        So, GZ thinks that only African Americans would come after him? Based on what I’ve read on some Asian Islamic sites, they would like to see him beheaded for what he did to his former co-worker.

      • jun says:

        What happened to the trove of Z black friends?

      • jm says:

        “Not long after that, GZ was outside when a car pulled up with African American occupants. GZ ran in the house convinced they had been found by a band of bounty hunters. As it turns out, Osterman’s neighbors actually had black friends who had stopped by for a visit”

        So had GZ shot and killed them, I am sure he (and Osterman) would have made up a story about them being thugs and suspicious and that GZ was only defending himself.

        Then somebody would write a book about the fear GZ was experiencing, GZ would set up a website to ask for money to defend himself and those who do not value a black person’s life would send money and dig into the victim’s past to see if they deserved to die anyway, even though they weren’t doing anything wrong when GZ spotted them.

      • Malisha says:

        Xena, I had never thought about the “threat” from the Asian-Islamic contingent — wow, George has managed to alienate a few different folks at various times, huh? Jun, when I heard/saw Osterman say that “at one time” George could have put all his Black friends together to make a rally bigger than the one that gathered for Trayvon Martin, I suffered a little bout of helpless hilarity, and I thought, “why all the past-tense stuff? Why doesn’t George call them all right now and ask them to come out in support of him in downtown Sanford. They can all wear red jackets and carry signs saying, ‘We dearly loved our friend George Zimmerman who dearly loved us.'” Oh — and why didn’t all those African American friends open up a website called, we’re-black-and-george-zimmerman-never-shot-us.com? That way they could remain anonymous so the NBP won’t hurt them, and still show their support for someone they dearly loved?

        And, oh yeah, how come Osterman was using the past tense?

      • JUN says:

        LMAO it is such a ridiculous lie, I sometimes wonder if Osterman is just saying that crap to throw Z under the bus.

        Its pretty apparent, but I will say it, Zimmerman doesn’t have any friends, let alone black ones. & even if he did have those friends, after learning about all the recent news of Z, it would make anyone question their friendship with Z

      • cielo62 says:

        How brave of GZ to leave his woman behind in danger!

      • It is strange Osterman talks about all of GZs friends when, in his statement to the FDLE, he states GZ has few friends. If he has many friends whereby Osterman would be his token white friend, then he lied in a sworn statement, did he not.

      • Xena says:

        Well, I think anyone who has read comments that I’ve posted here already know that I like connecting dots when considering pieces of the GZ puzzle.
        One piece: GZ has a gang tattoo.

        Another piece: On his MySpace page, GZ wrote about not missing Mexicans in VA pulling knives on him. GZ would not join a Latino gang, aka, Mexican. He looks down on them.

        Another piece: GZ also wrote the following on his MySpace page:
        “… I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…”

        That is what happened to his Black friends, possibly members of the gang he belongs to. No doubt, he boasted about his dad being a judge to give them a sigh of relief that if caught and convicted of a crime, that they would not serve more than a year. That would gain him favor and a higher position in the gang where they were willing to follow his demands and not snitch.

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena –

          Xena, I was curious as to which of the Zimmerman tattoos = which gang. Any idea?

          That would be WONDERFUL subject to be questioned by the prosecution …

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena~ I agree 100%. I’ve been imagining him as having been an active gang member back in VA and the tattoo proves it. We don’t know what Zimmerman has in or IF he has, a juvi record. His question to Martin sounds like a turf challenge to me. I had forgotten about that FB entry. GZ wanted to join one of the most powerful gangs around “the police department.”  At least, that’s what his experiences have taught him. I could see him abusing any badge or authority he was given. I wonder why “A Clockwork Orange” just popped into my head?  🙂

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia

        @Xena –

        Xena, I was curious as to which of the Zimmerman tattoos = which gang. Any idea?

        That would be WONDERFUL subject to be questioned by the prosecution …

        Based on info published by the State of Virginia, the tattoo that GZ has is not specific to any gang affiliation in that State. However, based on the Canadian Border Patrol, they identify the tattoo that GZ has as “typical among Latin and Asian gang members.”

        The Montana Dept. of Corrections associates the tattoo “in general” as connected to the nationwide Sureno gang and gang pockets in Montana and Calif. http://info.publicintelligence.net/MTgangguide.pdf

        • cielo62 says:

          Thank you. I saw the Canadian source, 84 pages! Of course, GZ might have just been a gang banger wanna be as well.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Uh oh, Montana, that’s not a good sign. The white supremacist settle there and used to hold their concerts to raise funds there, until movie stars moved in and they were asked to take them elsewhere, because movies stars could not afford the bad publicity they might generate, so they moved their wp concerts to South Dakota.

          GZ doesn’t impress me as a patron of the arts. So, if I had to guess, his masks tat is probably in the “Play U Pay” corner.
          After all, he does sort of fancy himself as a gang leader.

      • MichelleO says:

        WHAT I think happened is that Osterman more than likely, put his ass out. He realized that he had created, aided, and abetted a monster who was no longer under his control. They probably talked it out where he could go, and he chose a destination out of state. Smellie is a Florida girl, so she stayed. Her family is there, and nobody at that time knew who she was.

  64. Malisha says:

    Osterman saying, “George told me he was going to die” is hearsay. George saying, “I felt I was going to die” is not hearsay. A doctor saying, “I examined George and he had a serious concussion” is not hearsay. George saying, “I was told I had a serious concussion” is hearsay.

    • George has to say he felt he was going to die, otherwise it is hearsay. If MOM introduces it at trial, it would be in opening and closing, wouldnt it. He cant introduce it as evidence, if I am understanding the Professors postings. What say you, Patricia.

      • Patricia says:

        Sandra and Malisha –

        I usually leave the opinions on rulings to The Professor and those working in the legal field. Frankly, I was wondering how O’Mara would introduce the case – perhaps along the line of “Your honor, the issue before you today is my client’s plea of self defense in the case of The State of Florida vs George Michael Zimmerman. I call as my first witness EMT ______ (the snarky guy) … examination and cross; my second, Physician’s Assistant …. examination and cross, and Dr. Sigmund Freudian, “expert witness,” who has been stirring around in my clients brain and will give you his professional opinion of the muddled grey matter in there … examine and cross.

        Doesn’t the judge have to ASK George how he pleads?

        But that’s not the same as testimony?

        The point really has to be made that Zimmerman FEARED. And only Zimmerman can make that statement. You couldn’t have Dr. Freudian saying GZ “Should have feared for his life.”

        So I expect the prosecution is really gearing up to hunt bear, bringing in ALL the presentable data and witnesses. Assuming (though I never do) that GZ is not granted self-defense, so he can’t skip off to his next Hannity interview, the Self-Defense hearing might be the one thing that convinces GZ to settle for the minimum 25 year sentence.

        He has a very tough judge for both the S-D hearing and the trial. George may still want to take his chance with a jury. Say he’s sentenced at age 30 for 25 years + 10 (for killing a juvenile). That lets him out at 65 (if he survives) which is unthinkable to a 30-year old. But so is getting out at age 55 with a plea bargain. And, as The Professor says, the prosecution figures it has a strong case, so why bargain? I also think the State would want to make this a showcase trial.

        Keep in mind that one juror can hang this case – BUT the state can re-try. AND, if GZ by some miracle gets off, the Feds will move in with their complaint.

        I know this has been no help, but were all hangin’ in here together.
        I miss Bordelaise, as he was always a good back-up on this legal stuff. What I think HAS to happen in the S-D Hearing is that GZ HAS to testify. And I don’t think this judge will put up with any games.

        One thing I have been wondering about: George has huge weight fluctuations. If he shows up before a jury weighing 140, I think he’ll get off because some jurors won’t believe it’s the same guy!

      • JUN says:

        Its true that we cant predict the future and I pray that justice is done and the truth comes out. However, Zimmerman is still in a sticky situation so thats pretty awesome for the time being. Zimmerman’s gonna have to be confronted with all his lies in court and have his credibility impeached, but I am guessing Omara will be coaching Zimmerman.

      • You can bet you bottom dollar he will be as thin as a rail, wearing an oversize suit and a shirt with a collar that could wrap around his neck twice. Osterman has lost alot of weight too. I guess they are helping each other (again) with a weight loss program. Is GZ not prescribed a drug that has weight loss as a side effect — I think so.

      • There is always a bit of truth in the lies told by GZ. When listening to his brother, he claims GZ and he look so much alike. For what purpose would he say that. Has me thinking GZ will never go to trial. A little alteration and GZ could use his brothers passport to get outta Dodge!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          He’d have to select a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the U.S. So there’s not so many places to look for him. Worse still, if he’s there under false pretenses, using his brothers passport, all one has to do is point that out to the authorities and he’ll be deported to a country that has an extradition treaty. He’d be toast.

      • jm says:

        I’m not sure why his brother said he looked like George but there is a big difference to me and that is the eyes. It seems GZ’s eyes are a bit strange. Not sure if it is due to GZ’s mental status or just a physical issue but I always felt his eyes were the window to his mind and it was wacky. I also thought it was interesting that Robert Jr, who resembles George generally speaking, is not in hiding yet George is.

      • Xena says:

        @Sandra Graham

        When listening to his brother, he claims GZ and he look so much alike. For what purpose would he say that.

        I heard Junior say that too and talked back to the television — “NO! You look more Italian and you are also gay, so stop saying you’re afraid of being mistaken for your brother!”

        No. They do not all look alike.

      • PYorck says:

        When listening to his brother, he claims GZ and he look so much alike. For what purpose would he say that.

        I took it to mean that they want to use the smarter and less creepy Zimmerman from now on, but we are not supposed to care too much about the difference.

    • JUN says:

      The fact Zimmerman uttered “These assholes, they always get away” and then “fuckin punk” or “coon” kind of contradicts the idea that he feared the victim, at all. Calling someone a punk is the same as calling someone your bitch in prison.

  65. jun says:

    Okay

    Zimmerman’s statement and claim

    “It was self defense”

    Wouldnt that constitute hearsay? Would that bar Omara from evening stating it at trial and opening?

    • MichelleO says:

      I READ that piece. Unfortunately, when it comes to clear-cut cases like this, America always seems to side with the perp. I’ll never forget that young man that was shot to death while laying face down and in handcuffs in California, by a bart cop. He was shot to death in front of his very young daughter, who was no older than five. They only gave him a couple of years. So, sad and pitiful.

  66. Malisha says:

    Zhickel, I don’t know how long a normal person would take to go from “afraid I was going to die” to “able to leap buildings in a single bound and get a holstered gun out and ready and shoot and kill and turnover and lunge at and holster gun and speak and phone and be photographed” to “perfectly OK while they clean me up after the “altercation” to “sincere and self-defensey.”

    I do remember reading that George suffered from Irritable Bowel Syndrome. That kind of person has a rather jumpy and itchy reaction-time to stress, if I’m not mistaken. It would be good to understand more about what “normal” would be like under those alleged circumstances.

    I do think the “you got a problem homie” and the “shut the fuck up” and the “you’re gonna die tonight motherfucker” are defamatory because they present Trayvon Martin in a false light. Also, he cannot be heard to defend himself, can he?

    • MichelleO says:

      HE’S comically portraying this 17-year-old kid as some sort of crazed Shaft-like figure. I bet he was hoping beyond hope, that they could find some sort of illegal narcotic substance in Trayvon’s system, to go along with the other stereotypical attributes people like Zimmerman pass along to all black people. Oops!

    • GZ even steals Trayvons screams for his own cowardly self!

  67. Malisha says:

    JM, I agree wholeheartedly.

    Furthermore, the fact that George did not break own into tears and choking sobs upon being informed by Serino that he had killed “not a thug, a good kid, a mild-mannered kid, a kid with a future, with parents that cared,” immediately turned me around. Wha????? He didn’t say a word! His world should have been crumbling around him. He should have been sobbing, “Oh WHY DID HE HIT ME? WHY? WHY?” No surprise. No shock. No reaction. No tears, no falling upon the knees and gnashing of teeth — dead silence. Watchful, self-protective, wary, cagey, psychopathic, empathy-free SILENCE. As in, “What do I care; he got what was coming to him.”

    • cielo62 says:

      An opinion most sickeningly echoed by his minions.

    • bettykath says:

      That sob, GZ, doesn’t deserve a fair trial. In fact, he doesn’t deserve any trial. Let’s string him up now!

      • jm says:

        Zimmerman deserves a trial with consideration of his mental state before and after the killing, including the Hannity interview where he shows no remorse, considers it “God’s plan” even after it has been proven to him Trayvon Martin was a visitor in the neighborhood and Zimmerman was wrong to profile him as “suspicious”. No REMORSE to me under the circumstances revealed to GZ proves he is a sociopath.

        If it were left to me, I would string him up now just for the audacity of his lies, claiming to be a victim, although clearly he was the aggressor.

        I happily anticipate a court proceeding to prove GZ is guilty and sentence him to prison for life. I also will be happy to see ShelLIe pick up a felony conviction for perjury.

        Honestly, this Zimmerman team sickens me with their tactics, the latest being Robert Jr’s spin on events and his family, ultimately appealing for racist money to support George, while enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.

      • bettykath says:

        ok. No support here for a level playing field. Let’s hope you have lots of money for your own experts if you’re ever charged with a crime that has a zealous prosecutor.

        • Patricia says:

          @BettyKath,

          I’m not so certain that there’s no support here for a level playing field. I think that our emotions are rubbed raw by the fact that there was no “level playing field” February 26 for young Trayvon, and that Zimmerman and his family have behaved abominably towards Trayvon’s reputation, his memory, and the grieving Martin family.

        • cielo62 says:

          I’m sure everyone posting here wants GZ to get a fair trial. The last thing we want are any appeals. I want him to stay in his 8x 9 cage for decades to come. Anyway, Zimmy probably has a ton of financial supporters who are protecting an agenda. Notice that MOM hasn’t mentioned recently how much is in the piggy bank?

      • rachael says:

        You got it Patricia!!

      • rachael says:

        Of course he deserves a fair trial. But like I said above, why is fair equated with how much one can buy and why does he deserve a more fair trial than someone who can’t afford the high-priced attorneys?

        I mean what is fair?

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Well Bettykath, if we didn’t live in a civilized country, GZ would have already been strung up as you suggest and quiet frankly, it would be more consideration that he gave Trayvon as the judge, jury and executioner. We have a legal system here in the U.S., if you can’t afford an attorney, one will be afforded to you – and your attorney will be allowed to retain expert witnesses – just not the high priced ones that can be bought off with an exorbitant amount of money to get up on the stand and lie. GZ will get his fair trial, but again, it is unfortunately far more than what he gave Trayvon. And have you forgotten that GZ was given almost 400k to afford a defense? What did he do with it Bettykath? He purchased expensive cell phones, he went and stayed in a beach house with a view from the toilet, paid off all of his past due credit cards and personal obligations…screw the defense expenses, GZ was counting on more funds rolling in. And hell, they may be for all we know. I don’t feel sorry for this sick sob – there are far more deserving defendants worthy of your concern who may be facing charges for a crime they may not have committed who do not have private attorneys or high paid experts, and what about them Bettykath? What about them? And don’t even give me that “well, you have better hope this never happens to you” routine – because I will say that right back to you – God forbid that one of your children is ever profiled, stalked and shot in the heart for doing nothing more than trying to get home from the local 7-11 after purchasing tea and candy. This pervert has no remorse, he’s trashed Trayvon’s image, he is even trying to steal Trayvon’s dying words and worse, is calling upon the skinhead white supremist of American to help him walk away from what he’s done. He will get a fair trial – rest assured – and then I will relish watching him rot in a 6 x 10 foot cell for the rest of his life and consider him lucky because he still gets to breath air….that’s more than he allowed Trayvon.

      • Vicky says:

        GZ absolutely deserves a fair trial.. In this particular case, I don’t think there has been any need for the prosecution to spend an extensive amount of $$ on experts, and with the present economy, I doubt they have it in their budget to do so. If GZ is declared indigent, then the State of Florida will pay for his expert witnesses as well. I don’t like the idea that expert testimony can be bought and paid for by anyone with enouh money either, and I believe there needs to be more regulation regarding expert witnesses. However, this case is not about a defendant that relied upon the public defender’s office following his arrest. GZ made contact with him to represent him, and that in the beginning O’Mara agreed to take his case pro bono. Therefore, he accepted the responsibility of paying for his entire legal defense, including experts. At least that is how most law firms handle cases they take on pro bono. The problem O’Marah faces now, is that he took the case under the impression that GZ was a sound investment. And like with any other investment, there are risks involved. In this case, the tree stopped bearing fruit after the first harvest.

        • Patricia says:

          And, Vickie, it’s a good thing that tree never bore fruit again – every lying apple presented by Zimmerman had a worm at the core.

        • cielo62 says:

          I never read anywhere that MOM was going to do this case pro bono. The original two lawyers DID make that announcement before GZ refused to communicate with them and they intelligently dropped him like a hot potato. But I believe MOM mentioned at one of their televised begging sessions that he had not even been paid, that is how “poor” GZ and his Paypal account had become. In either case, taking on GZ was a bad risk and a terrible professional decision.

      • bettykath – Jose Baez was Casey Anthonys Public Defender. I think you are selling PDs short and, quite frankly, assuming incompetence is insulting.

        • cielo62 says:

          Jose Baez was a lucky snake oil salesman. He was lucky he could sit a jury of brain dead zombies who didn’t know the value of circumstantial evidence. There was more than enough circumstantial behavioral evidence that Casy Anthony SHOULD be rotting in prison right now. But like the professor said, jury selection can win a trial. Jose Baez was a very lucky PD.

          • jm says:

            “Jose Baez was a lucky snake oil salesman. He was lucky he could sit a jury of brain dead zombies who didn’t know the value of circumstantial evidence.”

            No doubt Baez is a snake oil salesman, I think Jose Baez made a lot of his luck – to begin with by distracting the crime of killing her daughter, with alleged sexual abuse by George Anthony in Baez oh-so-dramatic opening as well as claiming the death was by drowning that I guess Casey and her father covered up for some unknown reason.

            I wonder if MOM could do the same in an opening statement, distracting from the actual crime by saying that Zimmerman was molested by a dark-skinned person as a child and he has remained suspicious (paranoid) ever since.

            I also read, don’t know if it is true, that Baez charmed the jurors, and they did not like the prosecution.

            It does help to get brain-dead sequestered jurors who want to go home too who would rather err on the side of caution and find the defendant not guilty rather than guilty.

            If I were GZ I would have chosen Baez over MOM.

      • jm says:

        bettykath says:. “No support here for a level playing field. Let’s hope you have lots of money for your own experts if you’re ever charged with a crime that has a zealous prosecutor.”

        I thought the state provides funds for a level playing field for people who can’t afford it. If not, it looks like a lot of people are in prison because they didn’t have a level playing field because they didn’t create a website begging for defense money.

        I have NEVER seen such a circus as the Zimmerman team have put on with their never-ending PR tour looking for money, the latest Robert Jr, trying to put lipstick on his pig brother. And they want money not just for defense but to live on including his parents.

        George has finally achieved the hero status that he wanted to be thanks to the “masses” (per GZ) who support him. I can’t imagine sending money to him (or his parents) and this begs the question what type of people support the Zimmerman’s, even after it has been proven they are capable of creating a series of lies and will perjure themselves. Would I be far off base to suggest that there are a lot of racists sending money for George’s living expenses and defense? I don’t know, just asking for an opinion.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          One has to consider that there are a whole lot of media outlets of every shade of the spectrum. So, there may be many people who aren’t quite getting the story that people researching the matter are getting. Of course there are the racists who were pushing their version, my guess is that’s where the donors were coming from.

          I noticed donations dropped off rather precipitously once GZ announced how proud he was of his “Hispanic heritage”, since there had been no mention of this pride before the charges of racism were leveled at him. Many of the people involved have stated they believed he was white.

          You’ll, no doubt, notice that in these current forays into the limelight, in search of funds, there’s little to no mention at all of that pride in his Hispanic heritage. My guess is that it has been discovered to be a negative fundraising factor. The people supporting him now, are not so much in favor of him, as they are opposed to his black victim.

    • No reaction at the scene either. His vitals showed no elevations – cool as a cucumber and the Voice Stress Analysis Test showed he feels no guilt or responsibility for having killed someone. Not normal and this is why I feel he is a danger to society. If he does not go to jail, his exoneration will have done nothing more than reinforce his beliefs and his actions that evening.

      • Zhickel says:

        Sandra:
        On a different tack, I’ve been searching for the EMT report of Zimmerman’s vital signs, taken at the crime scene.

        In particular I’d like to know breathing, heart rate etc and how long these measurements were taken after the shooting.

        The reason: after those anguished screams, the sheer terror conveyed in the cries, how long would it take for a persons physical state to return to normal?

          • Patricia says:

            Brown, I have been wondering for some time if GZ’s vitals are admissible in court.

            I don’t think he was Mirandized until Singleton itervened.

            What sayest thou? Class?

          • Brown says:

            Hmmm.
            First thought he was pretty calm and under self control for him to claim a fight to the death. Second thought what drugs would a person be on to contribute to a reading like that. I believe they are admissable, correct me Professor or anyone else if I’m wrong. If his doctor’s note is admitted, why not the EMT’s they have no dog in this fight. EMT report is the closest in time to the killing as to his injuries or lack thereof.

          • Patricia says:

            Well, it could be said that taking Zimmerman’s vitals was of medical service to HIM as the EMT’s decided the course of his limited treatment.

            But could the prosecution use it – since it happened pre-Miranda?

            I don’t recall Zimmerman signing any release in order to get EMT tratment (which would be coercive, anyway: “No release buddy – no treatment.”)

            I think it adds to the refutation that Zimmerman “feared for his life.”

            So I hope it can be used.

      • Xena says:

        @Patricia

        Brown, I have been wondering for some time if GZ’s vitals are admissible in court.

        If O’Mara enters them into evidence, or calls the EMT to testify, I would think that whatever the reports contain can be addressed during cross. However, if I were the prosecution, I’m not so sure if I would want to give the jury a class in Vitals 101. The vid of GZ entering the police station might be more relevant. People in general do tend to pay more attention to what they see rather than what they hear.

        • Brown says:

          Agree, on people tend to pay attention to pictures more then what they hear. But if anyone on that jury has been to a regular check up know what normal and abnormal vitals as to blood pressure, breathing etc. I believe they will get it.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Of course GZ would have known the minute he heard TM speak, that he didn’t have a thug or a criminal on his hands. The choice of words the scared voice the body language would all have told GZ that he had a frightened and helpless child on his hands. Yet, GZ chose to go forward with his plans to start a fight he could use, but even that failed. So he had to phony one up.

      We do know that TM was not a deadly threat, we know that TM did not know how to fight, had no combat training or even defense skills. He was just a child walking home from the store and should not have needed any combat skills just to get home. If left alone there would have been no crime in the neighborhood caused by this kid. All we have about any of the actions GZ says he experienced that night are his own words, and those words don’t make GZ look like a hero, in fact they don’t even yield any good reason for GZ to have taken the shot. TM was unarmed and his hands are not deadly weapons. No matter how hard GZ tries to make out that they were.

  68. bettykath says:

    I’ve been wanting to say this for some time. The prosecution has funds for whatever experts it needs. The defense has to come up with its own funds for its own experts. This is a resource imbalance that puts the defense at a severe disadvantage in many cases.

    OJ had a few million for his dream team and his experts, but most defendants do not. It’s demeaning for the defense to have to beg for funds. If you begrudge the funds for GZ, what if it were you and you were innocent. Do you have the funds for experts?

    I want Zimmerman to have a fair trial. That means he has to be able to have his own experts, and that means that there has to be fundraising. They also have more expenses due to the very high profile of the case. So, I don’t begrudge the Zimmerman team their efforts at fundraising.

    • ks says:

      I don’t think “begrudging” is the issue. The problem is the method not the action. Trying to raise funds is one thing but disparaging the victim to do it is another.

      Also, GZ has gotten quite the “fair trial” so far. He’s on his 3rd judge and most defendants, especially after what GZ and Co pulled during the first bail hearing, would be in jail right now.

    • jm says:

      Doesn’t the state provide defense funds to ensure a fair trial?

      BTW, I begrudge the lies/spin that RZJ and MOM put on the case to raise funds which appeals to gun-nuts and racists.

    • ks says:

      To add, it’s hard to have any sympathy for GZ’s expense plight when he has wasted the majority of his donations of lifestyle enhancements and not paying his lawyer or any experts.

    • Rachael says:

      Why do you feel he is not or will not get a fair trial? So you agree that justice depends on money? What if he had mone and had to depend on a public defender loke you or I would? We wpuld mot get a fair trial? This is one of my issues with the legal system, justice depends on $s and eho usually has les poor people. Sigh.

      • Malisha says:

        He has money for experts and his gun-toting cheerleaders have plenty of money for experts and there’s no stress there. The thing is, where will they find an expert who’s willing to say a 1/2″ scrape on the noggin is life-threatening? Where will they find an expert to say it’s possible to shoot a bullet directly into a guy’s heart at NO ANGLE from UNDERNEATH the guy without being able to extend your arm? Where will they find an expert to say it’s possible to “squirm” 40 feet while you’re immobilized by a headsmashing incredible hulk in a hoodie?

        He’ll plead.

    • bettykath says:

      Is it GZ or MOM doing the disparaging? or is it some neanderthals on blogs?

      MOM seems to be trying to put on an assertive case for his client that does not include bad-mouthing TM. GZ has lots of stories to tell that don’t add up, but since his initial profiling of TM as a thug, he hasn’t been attacking TM’s character or his family. His other “friends” (Taafe, Osterman come to mind) have supported GZ but I don’t hear them attacking TMs character. They repeat GZ’s story of TM beating him, but they don’t go beyond that.

      I haven’t said that GZ hasn’t been treated fairly by the court so far. What I’m suggesting is that the defense is at a disadvantage when it comes to being able to do its own investigation and in being able to have its own experts to evaluate the evidence for the trial. The prosecution experts are looking at the evidence from one perspective. Defense experts would have a different mindset and could see the evidence differently. They could pick up on things that the prosecution experts might miss.

      I, too, would have stopped any further contributions (if I had made any to begin with) once I found out how he spent $30,000 of it. It’s just another example of his poor judgement.

      Please consider the question of how does the defense attorney do a true due-diligence for poor or destitute clients.

      • Malisha says:

        Justice Ginsberg once observed that defendants who got the death sentence were those who could not afford private counsel.

        It’s simply a fact of life that in the state court, public defenders are not as effective for their clients as private lawyers specializing in criminal defense. There are a hundred reasons for this; the Todd Willingham case in Texas shows about 99 of them.

      • jm says:

        “Is it GZ or MOM doing the disparaging”

        I believe by GZ’s story, he is disparging Trayvon. GZ is making Trayvon a black “thug” by “attacking” him and thus he needed to defend himself so he killed him.

        Don’t follow MOM but assume he is going along with the story that Trayvon “thugged” GZ, doubling back after GZ followed him and Trayvon attacked him breaking his nose and beat his head in concrete, thus necessitating GZ killing him. Pretty disparging to me. Then to top it off, GZ has no remorse after finding out Trayvon was visiting the community and was not a “suspicious” person and he was wrong for profiling him.

      • bettykath says:

        jm says,
        “I believe by GZ’s story, he is disparging Trayvon. GZ is making Trayvon a black ‘thug’ by ‘attacking’ him and thus he needed to defend himself so he killed him. ”

        That’s GZ’s story. His first version was very disparaging (the NEN call, his statements in the first couple of days, but he seems to have toned it down, e.g. he no longer uses the B movie thug dialog. Even in the SH interview, he told more conflicting nonsense, showed little to no real compassion (I don’t think he’s capable of it) for the Martins, but the rhetoric of his story has calmed down while retaining the basic elements.

        “Don’t follow MOM but assume he is going along with the story that Trayvon “thugged” GZ, doubling back after GZ followed him and Trayvon attacked him breaking his nose and beat his head in concrete, thus necessitating GZ killing him. Pretty disparging to me. Then to top it off, GZ has no remorse after finding out Trayvon was visiting the community and was not a “suspicious” person and he was wrong for profiling him.”

        What do you expect a defense attorney to do? He’s stuck with his client’s story, in GZ’s case his stories, until such time as the evidence is clear that the story is bogus. When that happens he doesn’t announce it in a press conference, he talks w/ his client. He may not say to his client that he’s lying, but he certainly can say that the evidence doesn’t seem to support his story. He can recommend taking a plea but, if the professor is right, that train has left the station.

        MOM has backed off the SYG defense, and he seems have backed off the head battering. At least, all I heard him mention for the classic self defense is the broken nose (which he can’t prove was broken).

        Look, I think GZ is guilty of at least murder 2, and with some of the possible scenarios, maybe murder 1, but I wouldn’t go to the grand jury to make that charge. I just think that some of the comments here re: fundraising are a bit over the top, as if a suspect, assumed to be innocent until proven guilty, is not entitled to a vigorous defense that includes access to evidence analysis to the same extent as the prosecution. It takes money to do that. If you aren’t rich you have do fundraising. The basic tenet of fundraising is find those with the money who have sympathy with your cause. Then tell them what they need to hear so they will open their wallets.

        • cielo62 says:

          And totally slandering an innocent person is OK as long as it “opens up those wallets”? Sorry but that is pretty darn pathetic. Needing funds for a vigorous defense does NOT give one the right to destroy another persons reputation. GZ and his ilk make me sick. And no real expert will deny or be able to twist forensic evidence enough to save George from years behind bars.

      • I think you may want to re-watch the bail hearing where Mr. OMara just about comes out and says Trayvon brought it on himself. No, he isnèt bad-mouthing Trayvon – he is saying he deserved what he got!

      • Zhickel says:

        bettykath:
        Well said, you make very good points. I too want to see Zimmerman have the fairest trial possible – if only to put an end to the ridiculous stories that Trayvon was a thug.

        I also suggest that we wait and see exactly what O’Mara says to the NRA before offering criticism.

      • rachael says:

        @Bettykath:

        ” What I’m suggesting is that the defense is at a disadvantage when it comes to being able to do its own investigation and in
        being able to have its own experts to evaluate the evidence for the trial.”

        Who said life and/or justice is fair? What you think is justice may not be what I think is justice.

        Who was at a disadvantage the night Trayvon was shot?

        All I know is in this system, justice is not always fair. Why should GZ be allowed any more justice than anyone else? Just because it is a high-profile case?

        A few years ago, my son had some allegations that were not true but could possibly ruin his life. I called a high-profile lawyer who gave me a quote of $50,000 for a retainer and said he would refuse a plea and practically guaranteed that my son would get off if I hired him. I had some kind of legal benefit through my work, so I called an attorney from there – she wanted even more just to start. They both told me how bleak it would be with a PD. I was terrified. I did not have that kind of money. My son stupidly took a plea because he was scared and tired of all of it and they plead it down to something so minimal that he felt it was worth it rather than going through the rest of the process, something like 6 months of probation and 50 hours of community service instead of something horrible if he did not take the plea and was convicted.

        Anyway, like I said, I was terrified and crying the whole time thinking how unfair it was that because I didn’t have $50,000 and no house to use for collateral or anything that my son could possibly suffer the dire consequences.

        I guess my point is, why should GZ get anything more or less than my son did? What makes him any better? Just because this has been highly publicized? Just because he started a fund online?

        Dang. I should have started a defense fund online.

        I too want him to have a fair trial. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial. But what makes it more fair if he can afford to hire people that he couldn’t hire if he couldn’t afford it?

        What really is fair?

        I guess I’m not really looking for answers, just pondering our judicial system.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          George would not need any help if he had stayed in his truck and not tried to do the work that a real police officer with proper training was hired, trained and paid to do. George had none of the powers and/or rights that he needed to do any of the things that needed to be done! So he should have stayed in his truck and not tried to play super hero! The tragic results of which is, he shot and killed a helpless and innocent kid that he was not supposed to have any contact with, and whom he had no right to scare!

      • Tzar says:

        “MOM seems to be trying to put on an assertive case for his client that does not include bad-mouthing TM”

        “then [Martin] got shot, and he was killed because of his own doing,” O’Mara said.

        he also presented a picture of Trayvon at the 7-11 during the second bond hearing just to show how big and bad Martin was.

      • bettykath says:

        Rachael, “Anyway, like I said, I was terrified and crying the whole time thinking how unfair it was that because I didn’t have $50,000 and no house to use for collateral or anything that my son could possibly suffer the dire consequences. ”

        Your situation, and GZ’s are similar in that your son and GZ are both innocent until found guilty by a jury and neither have the funds to do the job. GZ is actually better off in his ability to raise funds due to the notoriety.

        There are many defendants all over the country who have to rely on public defenders, some quite good and overworked, and others not so good and overworked. And all working with minimum or non-existent staff, and no investigators or experts. I think it was the professor, or maybe on another blog, where it was suggested that the court appoint the experts, subject to agreement by the prosecution and defense attorneys. We need enough experienced and good public defenders with investigators and access to experts that work for the defense that those without funds still get good legal representation.

        What happened to your son is truly unfortunate. I’m so sorry it happened. I think you can see that there are different standards for the well-off and the not-so-well-off. Some of the mechanics of the system need to be changed.

      • jun says:

        Zimmerman had more than enough money, he simply greedily hid it and spent, & in turn got taxed for being dishonest.

        The way Zimmerman has it is more than fair. Trayvon cant even confront Z on his allegations. With his SYG claim, Z is severely infringing on Trayvons rights for presumption of innocence and the standard of evidence is low for Omara compared to finding Z guilty.

        If you want fair, Omara can hire his experts but he shouldnt of let his client blow his money, & Omara’s standard of evidence should be just as high as the State’s to prove Trayvon attacked him

        In the end, Z wouldnt be in any of his troubles if he just sat down and chilled out

      • Tzar says:

        @ rachel
        well played!

      • Didnt Casey Anthony have a Public Defender and wasnt she cleared of all charges but one. Pretty high profile case wasnt it. Her public defender wasnt even death penalty qualified, if I am not mistaken.

    • Tzar says:

      bettykath says:
      “The prosecution has funds for whatever experts it needs. The defense has to come up with its own funds for its own experts. This is a resource imbalance that puts the defense at a severe disadvantage in many cases. ”

      That’s why you stay in the truck my dear

      • bettykath says:

        Tzar, “That’s why you stay in the truck my dear”

        I’m not your dear and I don’t need that condescending bs directed at me.

        • cielo62 says:

          I don’t think the comment was meant to be condescending. But it IS true that there are consequences to stalking an unarmed kid and one of them is tangling with the legal system. If you don’t want trouble, start by not looking for it. Good advice GZ just could not seem to understand.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, we must remember that GZ was not preventing any crime! He was not calling to prevent any crime! He had not witnessed any crime and he knew of no other reason to suspect TM, other than that he was walking slowly in the rain. Hardly a reason to consider it an emergency so serious that he has to follow a kid who he had already frightened such that the kid had run off.

            If GZ had waited for the police, as the police had instructed him to, he would not be in need of any defense! His NW rules and training taught him that following suspects could have disastrous consequences because neither party can be sure of the others intentions. So, GZ followed even though he knew what he was doing could have disastrous consequences. He decided to accept those disastrous consequences and now he has them to face.

      • bettykath says:

        Calling me “my dear” is condescending.

      • Tzar says:

        It was definitely not meant to be condescending
        but truth be told
        that really is exactly why you stay in the car

      • Tzar says:

        sorry I meant that is why you stay in the “schruck”

      • thejbmission says:

        He says “schruck” because his teeth are clenched from taking too much Adderall. He was definitely impaired the night he called NEN, no doubt.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Nor do I begrudge them fundraising. I do want him to get a fair trial. But it’s pretty darned moot that he’s guilty, because of his own words: “I had one hand I was trying to move out of the way, so I didn’t hit it when I fired, and the other hand holding the gun”. Not direct quotes, but taken from his own statements.

      So, he had both hands engaged while holding his victim at gun point… and screaming for his life??? What was there about Trayvon’s empty hands that was so terrifying that they could cause GZ to fear of imminent death?

  69. Malisha says:

    Tzar, those depositions will be $$$$$$$ in O’Mara’s pockets, that’s all.

    About the gun rights conference, I wanted to check out what folks were saying about O’Mara’s intent to appear there and I particularly believe that those folks are HOLDING it in Orlando specifically because of the Zimmerman case (i.e. they have no shame) and I found this comment, which I quote in its entirety as a curio:

    “Speaking on this platform is not good because OMara case hinges on the facts that his client acted willfully with every opportunity to avoid confrontation based on his own admittance of observing Trayvon. He will only speak blindly of the truth not with clarity of the real problem that can destroy lives on all fronts.”

    For some reason, as I read this comment for perhap the eighth or ninth time, a sudden wave of unclarity passed over me, and I thought, “where have I heard this stuff before?”

  70. Tzar says:

    Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS
    George Zimmerman’s lawyers begin depositions, interview FDLE analysts — Story: http://thesent.nl/UTfEvW #GeorgeZimmerman #TrayvonMartin

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      @Tzar: you posted: [ “Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS George Zimmerman’s lawyers begin depositions, interview FDLE analysts — Story: http://thesent.nl/UTfEvW #GeorgeZimmerman #TrayvonMartin”]

      That link goes to the Orlando Sentinel site, where their photo gallery shows picture no 3 of TM with the “gold grille” that picture is not Trayvon Martin and they need to be told by enough people to take it down.

  71. katieunc says:

    http://shawnsjames.blogspot.com/2012/04/george-zimmerman-is-sociopath.html?m=1

    I read this article months ago and he really makes some great points. If you look up antisocial in the DSM IV gz’s photo should be there. I have to wonder if his ADHD was a incorrect diagnosis. Imagine what you get when you add powerful stimulants like Adderral to someone who really has antisocial personality disorder, rather than ADHD.

    DSM CRITERIA

    http://www.macalester.edu/academics/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/serialkillers/dsm_antisocial.html

    I also question a PA Rxing adderral; that’s why we have psychiatrists also referenced is a psychologist, which to my knowledge has no prescribing rights in Florida. Feel free to correct me on the last comment.

  72. Malisha says:

    Oh no, this is precious.

    http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-attorney-mark-omara-speak-gun-rights-activist-convention-details

    When I first heard the name Mark O’Mara I researched him and came up thinking he was a pretty smart guy and a good defense lawyer. Little by little (and with one very big leap when he appeared the fool on Hannity), I began to wonder if perhaps his client got a head-bang that gave the ATTORNEY brain damage. NOW I am beginning to think that whatever George has, either it’s contagious and O’Mara caught it, or they’re just birds of a feather, O’Mara being the smarter bird by far.

    Going to talk to the gun guys — OK, that’s good for business. But talking about THIS CASE to the gun guys, and talking about George as a “protector” with respect to the gun laws? OMG OMG OMG!

    Not only is that stupid, but if he DOES IT, he will have to be defaming Trayvon Martin’s name. NO EVIDENCE EXISTS that Trayvon Martin was dangerous. NO EVIDENCE EXISTS that anybody had to be “protected” from Trayvon Martin, ever in life.

    PLEASE somebody who has time and money attend that conference and report on every word O’Mara says, pleeeeeeease.
    I’ll kick in $20 for expenses right now, and maybe others will join.

    • There will be reporters there, so I think we will find out what happened.

    • jm says:

      “PLEASE somebody who has time and money attend that conference and report on every word.”

      Don’t you think O’Mara will be spreading his word on his website so he collects more money from more gun-rights people?

      I sure hope the prosecution sends a representative to record the event – just in case.

    • Patricia says:

      @Malisha

      I’ll match.

      Whoever attends will need to let us know where to send the $.

    • Chris says:

      It seems, at the least, inappropriate for O’M to speak on this particular subject, especially in the Orlando area. It’s rather like a dress rehearsal for trying the Z case in public and in the process potentially tainting any prospective jurors. The word disingenuous comes to mind…along with weasel.

  73. rachael says:

    OMG – don’t ANY of them know when to STFU?

    In a session billed as “Protecting the Right to Protect,” George Zimmerman’s lawyer will speak to hundreds of gun-rights activists about self-protection at their national convention in Orlando this weekend.

    Orlando attorney Mark O’Mara will address the crowd about his client’s use of deadly force and the international attention that followed the Feb. 26 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-27/news/os-gun-rights-convention-orlando-20120927_1_gun-owners-zimmerman-attorney-gun-rights

    • Malisha says:

      Someone should go and record the whole thing. O’Mara will be promoting the idea that Trayvon Martin was an aggressor against whom George needed a defense. That will be a slander.

      There is no evidence of any aggression on Trayvon Martin’s part.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Great, when you leave comments on the sites reporting GZ news, use this url: http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b the collection is chaotic, but that only invites poking around. At least they’ll be exposed to a collection of info who knows where that will lead them.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Oh, that’s because the site/blog has only article “teasers” with “read more links” which bounces people away so that they comment everywhere else. Meaning I don’t have to deal with pro-Z’s and neither will you be inviting them to wreck sane sites as they are known to try and do.

    • jm says:

      rachael says: “OMG – don’t ANY of them know when to STFU?”

      Team Zimmerman is on a perpetual fundraiser and will do what it takes to keep the money rolling in from gun-nutz and racists. They have absolutely no shame and that includes MOM.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hey, MOM didn’t do anything wrong, he’s charged with providing the best defense he can, for a guy who has trashed every avenue MOM might try to use. What else can MOM do but attempt to see that his one last chance at a payday actually pays off? No matter what MOM does, there won’t be any issues to appeal, because GZ has ruined his own defense beyond repair. An appellate judge can only say, that whatever happened at trial was GZ’s own fault.
        HIs attorney advised him to shut up and he refused to. After the defense was irretrievably ruined did MOM decide that speaking out could not hurt the defense, because there wasn’t any left.

        It boils down to “GZ needed a gun, to defend himself from the deadly, murderous children in the neighborhood”. Making him the “Playskool Superman”.

  74. Malisha says:

    About George’s injuries — The two women who gave statements (one called 911 and the other went out there and asked if everything was OK and etc.) — the one who went OUTSIDE and asked, and George said, “Just call the police,” DID NOT MENTION BLOOD on George Z. Trayvon was already dead. She said she saw Zimmerman put his hands to his head in the “universal gesture of ‘oh no I messed up'” but she did not notice BLOOD all over his head?

    Hmmmm…

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      “…universal gesture of ‘oh no what’s my alibi, let’s see…’ “

    • Bill Taylor says:

      ty, i mentioned that in another thread was sure one witness saw him as i recall “doing something to his head”.

      • Patricia says:

        @Bill Taylor,

        What GZ was doing (seriously) was clutching his head like he was thinking, “What the fk do I do NOW???” He had established that Trayvon was not armed, so the Thug Stuff was history. It was a skinny teen with iced tea, candy, and no ID. Some black kids lived there. He might have been thinking, “Geeeez, is this one of OURS?”

        NOW he had to come up with an alibi, FAST.

        To see in your mind what his posture was, imagine if you just stepped into the elevator on the 36th floor – and it wasn’t perfectly aligned – and you dropped your keys as you stepped in, and they fell down the elevator shaft.

        Tearing your hair out, right? Whaddya’ do NOW????

  75. Brown says:

    follow thread

  76. dr. koura says:

    @jun…this has been the best yet…i have never chimed in before…great recap of such horrific and tragic lies…

  77. Vicky says:

    I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, but In the reenactment video GZ, in another version of the Trayvon was going for my gun story, demonstrates how he reached across his body for his gun. How in the heck did he manage to reach all the way to the back side of his hip where he apparently kept his holster? I don’t know about the rest of you, but try as I might, I can’t get my arm to stretch that far in a manner that would allow me to retrieve a gun while pinning someone’s arm under my other arm.

    • JUN says:

      The other stupidity in Zimmerman’s claims is that Trayvon reached under Zimmerman’s arm pit after he saw the gun.

      He also claimed Trayvon saw Zimmerman’s gun, which was concealed, because it magically appeared to both of them, after Zimmerman forgot he had it

      Then the other ridiculousness is Zimmerman claimed his gun was on his right side hip while Trayvon mounted him (MMA), when an MMA mount would have blocked all access to Zimmerman’s hips

      Then there is the claim that Trayvon punched him, where Trayvon’s punch was in a northward direction, but somehow Zimmerman stumbles forward while making fly swatting motions

      Then there is the claim that Zimmerman was able to have a friendly conversation with witness 6 while he was getting his head bashed but he was so helpless.

      Then there is the claim that a 150 lb kid with candy, ice tea, and a heart stickered cellphone threatened a former bouncer who weighed 200 pounds and is much stronger and larger than Trayvon and that former bouncer had a firearm, a car, and a flashlight to do his stalking and chasing of a juvenile

      Then there is a the claim a scrawny mama’s boy juvenile with no history of violence or training in any martial arts was able to beat a former bouncer who outweighed the juvenile and had a weapons and tools advantage of a gun, flashlight and car

      Then there is the claim Zimmerman was going back to his car, but somehow he ended up in the direction he stated the “suspect” was going towards, which is the opposite direction of where his car was, and Zimmerman was 250 feet or so away from, so he had to have had to keep pursuit to be in that direction

      Then he claimed to have his head slammed into hard cement and somehow only walked away with 2 cat scratches and a minor bloody nose

      Then he claimed that he was following Trayvon in his car, behind him, and somehow Trayvon runs faster than olympic world records, then circles his car multiple times

      Then he claimed that he wanted to find an address for the police of where his car was by walking to the other side of the block and getting that address

      LMAO This has to seriously be the most lies a suspect has ever stated, a perp has ever stated on one case… LOL I think the Florida Law Enforcement will keep it for their party functions to watch and laugh at its absurdity

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Fantastic recap!

        My only objection would be the last…. the police are not laughing. They are scared because they are next for allowing this murderer to manipulate them in an attempt to cover-up his crime! George is not worth the headache and I am sure they all see it now.

        He should have been arrested, if not that night, then certainly after his re-enactment!

        Shame and disgust!

  78. katieunc says:

    Ok guys…… I have mentioned that I work in the medical field…so….. today I found a laceration that’s about 1 inch. This has been repaired with sutures on the inside and glue on the outside. This is a clean laceration……not something jagged you would expect to see from concrete. If gz had a 1 inch head laceration it WOULD have needed repair!

    • katieunc says:

      Ok guys…… I have mentioned that I work in the medical field…so….. today I found a laceration that’s about 1 inch. This has been repaired with sutures on the inside and glue on the outside. This is a clean laceration……not something jagged you would expect to see from concrete. If gz had a 1 inch head laceration it WOULD have needed repair!

      • Chris says:

        GZ’s medical report states he had two lacerations on his head: one was 2 cm and the other was 0.5 cm. That would indicate both were less than an inch and and med. report states no sutures required. Your thoughts?

        • jm says:

          :GZ’s medical report states he had two lacerations on his head: one was 2 cm and the other was 0.5 cm. That would indicate both were less than an inch and and med. report states no sutures required. Your thoughts?”

          My thoughts are EMS on the scene did not think GZ required sutures and that these small lacerations aren’t consistent with GZ’s story of how he got the lacerations – allegedly by his head being repeatedly smashed into concrete by a teen who amazingly had no GZ DNA on his hands/nails.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Not for George! It only took a kiss from Shelley and a couple of finger bandaids for healing! For her to be a nursing student, she sure is dumb. I guess they wanted the biggest bandaids possible for full effect! It is also amazing that she did not encourage her hubby to seek medical attention (and not for a note to return to work, but because being in the medical field she knew that a broken nose need medical attention!

        • jm says:

          “It is also amazing that she did not encourage her hubby to seek medical attention (and not for a note to return to work, but because being in the medical field she knew that a broken nose need medical attention!”

          Good point. I would think if/when GZ described his head being repeatedly smashed into concrete to Shellie, she would be aware he needed to have hospital tests for brain injury, hemorrhage, skull fracture, etc, even more than medical attention for the broken nose.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Zimmerman should have shown up for the reenactment in a mummy roll! lol

    • MichelleO says:

      THIS is so sickening—I can’t do it. Sickening and self-serving. From the few short minutes I listened, the Zimmerman family is the victim here. And the Zimmerman family are wholesome people.

      • looneydoone says:

        From what we’ve seen of the 3 Zimmer*men* the lot of them are delusional, arrogant callous, and calculating. They are actively seeking out media attention in an effort to raise more “donations”. I am enraged by their shenannigans !

      • Malisha says:

        Sociopaths out-victim everybody.

        If they hurt or kill you, YOU made them do it by victimizing them.

        If they just mess up, someone else is always to blame.

        They OWN innocence. So whatever goes wrong in the world is the result of them defending themselves against something bad.

        • jm says:

          Malisha says: “Sociopaths out-victim everybody. If they hurt or kill you, YOU made them do it by victimizing them. If they just mess up, someone else is always to blame. They OWN innocence. So whatever goes wrong in the world is the result of them defending themselves against something bad.”

          It sounds as if the whole family are sociopaths and it is not limited to GZ as I first thought. Following close behind GZ, is Robert, Jr is in second place. Both these idiots sound like they learned everything they know from Robert, Sr.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The part that bothered me most comes late in the program – about RZ Jr’s observations of GZ after the shooting – that he was deeply bothered, that because he is Catholic it upset him to take a life . . . it’s all well and good to say these and I wish it were true, but this is simply NOT reflected in any of GZs subsequent words or actions. Even accounting for the shock or a quiet personality that internalizes things, I just can’t see these feelings exuding from GZ. It appears as if the Z family is showing us THEIR reactions the incident and are ascribing their own feelings to George in an effort to save him.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      A group of manipulators – he is as unskilled as a liar as George! Even in telling the story of being chased down in the mall you could hear the lies. He forgot the lie that fast and claimed that “as the mob chased George” and then remembered that it was him that he says was being chased, like George, he had to clean it up. I’ve searched the net for this chasing (sure it would have made the news) to no avail.

      You mean to tell me that in the 3 years that your brother lived in that community, brother Robert had never visited there but somehow wants to give demographics??? How does this fool have a “recollection” of what transpired from CA? He admits that he would lie to hide money too! Why don’t they just shut the hell up and stop! He is in no way helping George’s case by giving interviews. I hope the prosecutor files this interview as evidence where he admits that he would lie to save himself which also translates into lying to save his brother! Gosh, what a bunch of idiots!

  79. rachael says:

    Here is what I have to say about that:

    “The medical records will be used in trial/Dennis hearing to show that Mr. Zimmerman did suffer great bodily harm (broken nose) and
    authorized him to react with the force that he did.”

    Great bodily harm? LMBFFAO!!!

    Oh. But seriously, what medical records? Did he go to the hospital that night? What records are there the next day that there was “great bodily harm?”

    And since when is a broken nose great bodily harm – and at that, such great bodily harm that it would “authorize” one to react with the force that he did (a gun?).

    A fractured nose is THE most common fracture of the face. And it is true that one most commonly occurs during a fight – but that is not the ONLY reason one might occur.

    However, what EVIDENCE is there that there is a fractured nose? Yeah, there was swelling and blood and one might “assume” a broken nose, but a “broken nose” is kind of a catch-all phrase, especially because unless it is symptomatic (a person cannot breathe, it leads to facial deformity), usually nothing is done more than ice and perhaps something for pain. If one needs surgery (say for a deviated septum), one must have an actual diagnosis made by X-ray and that would require a visit to an ENT – WHICH GEORGE REFUSED. As well, at this point, who knows if the broken nose was sustained then or previously.

    As far as “authorize” one to react with the force that he did – what a bogus bunch of crap. Getting popped in the nose (if that even did happen) and having a broken nose (if he even did/does have one) does not authorize the use of a gun – at least not in my opinion.

    • rachael says:

      I guess where I said:

      If one needs surgery (say for a deviated septum), one must have an actual diagnosis made by X-ray and that would require a visit to an ENT – WHICH GEORGE REFUSED. As well, at this point, who knows if the broken nose was sustained then or previously.

      I left out – if one needs verification/documentation for legal purposes (which you would think someone who just shot
      someone might think the would need for evidence), that would also require an ER visit or ENT visit for x-rays.

      Why on EARTH would this idiot think he could shoot someone, say it was self-defense and just walk away and then when asked, produce no evidence.

      Even on Judge Judy – or maybe it is one of the other judges, when they show up in court with no evidence she says, “Where did you think you were going today?” If you are going to say you have a broken nose, you have to actually HAVE a broken nose. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but just like his drug levels of medication, we will never know.

      But even if he did, it does not prove that Trayvon inflicted it on him, though it would make him at least a little more credible.

      He mentioned at the beginning of his phone call that he knew he was a kid in his late teens. Did he really think he could just say self defense and walk away and no one would challenge it?

      MY GOD!!!! Do you know the fit I’d pitch if I was told that my minor son was shot by someone who said it was self-defense and my son was found armed only with Skittles and a juice drink can? What kind of parent would say “Okay office, thank you for telling me.” Wouldn’t ANY parent DEMAND to know WTF happened?

      Sorry if I sound so angry, but I go look on the nut tree site sometimes and just don’t understand those people at all.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I hear ya. My youngest kids were barely twenty and the other seventeen at the time. Chilling.

      • MichelleO says:

        “He mentioned at the beginning of his phone call that he knew he was a kid in his late teens. Did he really think he could just say self defense and walk away and no one would challenge it?”

        WELL, he almost got away with it, didn’t he? He knew that city’s police department well enough to attempt it. Plus, he had Mark Osterman show him exactly how to do it.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        Why Osterman and his wife would expend SO much effort and time on GZ and SZ, only to then publish a book that only sorta defends them… hmm.

      • jun says:

        I consider the Conservative Treefrog to be a blog of future predators (stalkers, rapists, peeping toms, serial killers, domestic violence perps, etc). Only people like that would have no regard for others. The other percentage are racist. Some are just idiots that buy Zimmerman with no check on the story’s credibility. Then there are the gun nuts that are idiots (I say this because I like guns and its a proud invention of the Chinese but I dont believe in irresponsible gun use).

      • thejbmission says:

        Rachel,
        I know exactly what you mean. That nut tree site gets my blood boiling too.
        You asked, “Wouldn’t ANY parent DEMAND to know WTF happened?” Absolutely.
        If I were told this happened to one of my sons, I would have done anything I could to get answers. So why those nuts at the treehouse condemn Tracy and Sybrina, I’ll never know. If they disagree with that, well it doesn’t say much about them as a parent.
        God bless Trayvon’s family, for all of the hell they’ve been through since Trayvon’s death. I pray that they get justice for their son.
        If this were one of my sons I would be so angry.
        Not to mention the fact that the person who murdered my son would profit off of his death would drive me insane.
        And as for the Zim’s pathetic apology, well..they could put their sorry’s in a sack. If any of the Zims were really sorry they’d turn over any money made off of television appearances to the Martins.
        In my opinion, All their sorrys mean is “Trayvon somehow deserved to die”.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I agree with both you and Michelle….. Zimmerman came pretty close to getting away with the help of SPD which is despicable and I sure hope that they all have to pay a price for the cover-up attempt. Him and Mark seems to think they are invincible and smart. They had no idea of what family they destroyed with their stereotyped of Trayvon. This family knows their kid would have never attacked a grown man for no reason at all. I bet they were hoping that Trayvon had this God awful criminal record and background which would somehow explain that George needed to kill him!

        Wrong family George! They cared about and loved their son and it is a shame that you played God that night by pulling your pistol, moving your own arm (so not to shot yourself), aiming at his chest and pulling that trigger. I am sure that you could have just held the “suspect” at gun point because you already knew the police were on their way there. There is no way that an unarmed 17 year old would have resisted with a gun pointed at him. But because you knew you had no right to chase, stop and hold the kid that screamed for his mother, you had to silence him! Shame on you to not want to take your tough guy punishment.

        My God told me that you will be convicted and sent to prison for at least 25 years. You think you cried like a baby when 1st arrested, you will cry every night for 25 years.

    • Malisha says:

      Well a broken nose probably DOES authorize one to use a gun. For instance, if your nose is broken and you can’t get your finger up it any more, you might be permitted to shove the barrel of your gun up it. But would having a “likely broken nose” [quoted from the written medical report from the next day] authorize you to take your gun out and shoot somebody ELSE with it? Nope. Just sniffle till you get home and get an icepack, fool.

      But seriously, something else is on my mind now and I hope others will help me clarify a few things.

      George said (to someone; I can’t keep track any more because he blabs so much) that he holstered his gun after shooting Trayvon because he was “terrified” that the police would show up, see him with a gun out, and shoot him. OK. My question is this: since obviously by the time the police showed up there had been many 911 calls and those calls had reported gunshots fired and danger in the back yards of the RTL neighborhood, and since the patrol cars have two-way communication with Dispatch, then,

      (1) Did the officers appear on the scene (especially Smith) with their OWN guns drawn, coming in cautiously to see if they needed to either protect themselves or restrain someone on the scene? and

      (2) If not, why not?

      ALSO, since George told someone (again, can’t remember whom) that when he was still ON TOP OF Trayvon, and he saw someone approach with a flashlight, he thought THEY were the police so he got up, but they weren’t the police, was George UNAFRAID at that time so that he did not again pull his gun to defend himself because of the possibility that this new person on the scene was one of the thugs traveling with or in conjunction with “the suspect”? Where did his fear vanish to, and why did it vanish?

      ALSO, since George said he knew everyone in the neighborhood (this, to Serino I believe, as a reason he considered Trayvon suspicious, because he “knew” that Trayvon was not from the neighborhood), isn’t it obvious that everyone in the neighborhood also knew HIM and that the witness called “JOHN” knew him when he gave all those dramatic reports of the MMA punches and the deathly beating and etc. — reports he later changed and backpedaled on when it became obvious that he would end up under oath one day.

      ALSO, since there were so many 911 calls and since the dispatcher told the caller from whose phone we heard the shriek and the fatal shot that many others had already called, were the police cars’ lights and flashers on and sirens going full-blast when they approached? And if not, why not?

      Does make Osterman’s little speech about it being unrealistic that the police were part of an exoneration operation somewhat more questionable, doesn’t it?

      If you look at that one statement of George’s — that he holstered his gun from fear that police coming on the scene would kill him — then it gives the lie to his whole nasty routine that “Trayvon was not scared of me; he was skipping and attacking, ambushing, not escaping and running away,” doesn’t it? Here’s George who KNOWS the police and he’s scared if they come up on him and think he’s armed they’ll kill him. But he wouldn’t give the same benefit of the doubt to a frightened kid who DOES NOT KNOW the “creepy guy” following him and who could EASILY assume that the guy might want to kill HIM.

      And Trayvon would have been the one with the more accurate justifiable fear, huh?

      • MichelleO says:

        THE thing about George is that he knew Trayvon was unarmed. He made this statement to police investigators, and police investigators asked him again about his, and he confirmed that he knew that the kid didn’t have a weapon. That makes what he did really really, sad to me. The kid ran away, and so was an easy mark. This man got out of his vehicle to track down and murder a kid for no other reason than that he could. He murdered this boy even with all of the neighbors present and individually saying that they were phoning the cops.

        Please God, don’t let him get away with this.

      • bettykath says:

        “(1) Did the officers appear on the scene (especially Smith) with their OWN guns drawn, coming in cautiously to see if they needed to either protect themselves or restrain someone on the scene?”

        One of the officers, the second on the scene I think, who said that T. Smith had two people at gun point. No indication of when he drew his weapon.

        GZ was thinking clearly when he made sure the officers didn’t see him with his gun out. We might be monitoring an officer’s charge. Never mind. They don’t get charged.

      • Xena says:

        George said (to someone; I can’t keep track any more because he blabs so much) that he holstered his gun after shooting Trayvon because he was “terrified” that the police would show up, see him with a gun out, and shoot him. OK.

        It was on Hannity and actually, George didn’t say he holstered his gun because he was terrified. Hannity asked GZ if he was scared and nervous. George answered yes and went on to say:

        ZIMMERMAN: “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

        The full transcript is at the following:
        http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=6

      • bettykath says:

        Aha, he wasn’t the least bit afraid of Trayvon but terrified of the police?

      • JUN says:

        LMAo

        This is why the hearsay rule is awesome. Zimmerman cant have other people put forward his lying ass statements through someone else to try and forego scrutiny. Zimmerman, if he wants his statements to not be considered hearsay, has to get on the stand and testify, and his credibility will be easily shot down. The simple fact he gave 7 different versions of the story already prove he is a liar. The State doesnt even have to use any of Zimmerman’s statements to prove murder 2, but if Zimmerman gets on the stand, they can prove murder 2 and as well impeach Zimmerman on his credibility, and leave it where its pretty much fact that all of his statements are lies. I think the main killer is that with all the witnesses and the physics and the forensics. Zimmerman cant really dispute that he did not stalk and chase this boy and he cant say that Trayvon repeatedly hit him and smashed his head into cement. If Zimmerman changes his story, he will be called upon it with his prior statements and rebutted even more. Zimmerman has lied so much, his credibility will be zero by the time they are done with him.

      • jun says:

        Actually that Hannity statement will bite him on the ass. Because it leads people to question why “would police just shoot him out the blue” when police most likely would have simply asked him to drop his weapon. This leads one to believe Z was in a mitigating circumstance and did not want to get caught and appear dangerous

      • Xena says:

        Aha, he wasn’t the least bit afraid of Trayvon but terrified of the police?

        Yes! I have listened to that 911 recording with the screams countless times. After I heard GZ’s voice in the background, I was able to analyze the screams better. GZ could not be talking and screaming at the same time, and although I can’t make out all of the words, I definitely hear him say the “F” word. For a second, Trayvon does not scream. Then he does and the next scream is one of pain. That is followed by a drawn out “no” and then a faint “help” that is cut short by the gunshot.

        Connect that dot with what GZ said to Singleton about resisting authority. GZ apparently thought that he had some sort of deputized authority over Trayvon. He told him to shut the f up. He covered Trayvon’s mouth. It is my impression by listening to the recording that GZ drew his gun at that point. Trayvon probably didn’t see the gun right away and when he did, screamed out “NOOOOO!”

        GZ knew that the police were coming, and he also knew that his only means of trying to control Trayvon would be to hold his gun on him. He was out of time. Thus, as he said to Hannity, “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

        Think about that for a moment. If GZ pulled his gun and killed Trayvon in self-defense and holstered his gun right after as he said in other of his statements, he would not be concerned about the police arriving and seeing him with his gun out, holding it on Trayvon.

        It is also possible that GZ realized if he stood there any longer with his gun aimed at Trayvon, that a resident would witness that. He had to do it quickly and in close enough range so that his “aim” would not be witnessed by others. This gives me the impression that his grabbing Trayvon’s shirts was not to restrain Trayvon, but to bring him closer.

        Trayvon was terrified. He no doubt was physically still, and his only option was to scream “NOOOO” in begging for his life.

    • jun says:

      I think he forgetting the main component is that reasonable force was used and that they have to prove Trayvon caused the broken nose and… If Trayvon did, why, & was Trayvon’s reason reasonable

      A larger stranger stalking and chasing an unarmed boy through the dark of the night, with a gun, jumps on the victim out the blue… Sounds pretty reasonable to slug Zimmerman’s beak… Even though forensics don’t back that up

      Then there is the testimony of Z slipping and falling… Z also has to prove he didnt cause or get those injuries elsewhere as its very reasonable he did & claimed his wuss injuries to bolster SYG claim

      • MichelleO says:

        HIS actions are pretty depraved. Here, he has a gun, which he says he had control over. So, when then did he kill the kid? Couldn’t he have held him at gunpoint until the police arrived, since everyone including himself had called them? The kid never touched the gun, so why’d you execute him again?

      • JUN says:

        Yes, its fairly depraved if looked at from a reasonable person objective standard

        People who are reasonable and moral are not gonna go around playing Dirty Harry with innocent defenseless kids. They do not place such a huge judgement on another with no valid proof to back up their assertions. They also do not base their prejudiced perceptions of others into an unreasonable resentment and stalk and chase down a minor with a gun, terrorize the kid, then silence them. They also dont lie and smear a dead kid’s reputation to try and smirk out of responsibility for taking someone’s life, and a child at that.

        Even in self defense, killing another is and should be the very last option. Most reasonable people are not going to be bode well with taking another’s life. Zimmerman’s after killing actions and intentions says it all. His actions also are not even remotely close to self defense, they are the actions of a predator. The situation could have very well been avoided without Zimmerman escalating the situation without provocation. Could have been easily stopped with Zimmerman simply answering Trayvon’s worries and questions regarding Zimmerman and not be so hostile. It would have been easily ended with conversation. All of Zimmerman’s actions were not also illegal but not very reasonable at all.

        From my observation I would say it is aggravated stalking, forcible confinement, uttering and making theats, battery, and assault on Zimmerman. If Zimmerman would have simply let it go, they would have probably given him a few months and community service and Trayvon would be alive.

    • Vicky says:

      I had a thought about the next day trip to the family doctor’s office as opposed to an ER visit the night of the shooting.
      Even if the PA gave a definitive diagnosis of a fracture to his nose the following afternoon, there would be absolutely no proof a fracture occurred during the struggle with Trayvon. He could have slipped and fallen in the bathroom or walked into a door at the Osterman’s the following morning an further injured himself. IMO, his “serious injury via Trayvon Martin” boat sailed when he allowed nearly 10 hours to pass before having his boo-boos checked out by the PA.

      • Dave says:

        Actually, I don’t think that any of this really matters much. Even if we accept GZ’s claim that TM punched him in the nose at the T, even if we accept the notion that a broken nose constitutes “great bodily harm”, deadly violence in self defense is only permitted if it is reasonably necessary to PREVENT imminent death or great bodily harm, not to AVENGE great bodily harm, however recent.

      • Rachael says:

        Good point Dave, self-defense is to defend, not avenge! Didn’t GZ’s own lawyer say something about a “reaction” to getting his nose broken? Shooting is not, imo, an appropriate reaction. That is avanging, not self-defense, and his own lawyer said it.

      • thejbmission says:

        For all we know, GZ could had Osterman rough him up before he went to the doctor’s office the next day. Osterman was probably looking at him and saying, “dude, you don’t even look like you were in a fight. Come here and let me help you out”
        By the looks of GZ’s grades in that measly criminal law course he wasted his time in, I’m sure Osterman helped him out with wording his statement too.

      • JUN says:

        It also says in SYG to match force with force… so a punch in the nose returned with a gun shot isnt exactly fair or just… if it was that way, people in boxing would be shooting each other… its just not a very reasonable reaction…

        besides…

        it also states in the SYG, that if you are doing an unlawful activity, you cant claim SYG… I am fairly sure chasing an unarmed kid around the neighborhood with a gun isnt very lawful

        it also says that it doesnt apply if the person sought to be removed is a child… well Trayvon is a child

        Then under force by an aggressor… Zimmerman never exercised every reasonable means of escape (hold for laugh) and was not in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death… nor did Zimmerman try to withdraw… I also feel the fact that he was chasing and forcing a kid to have a confrontation with him with a gun constitutes a forcible felony so it kind of defeats the purpose

        Then the next issue is, that if Zimmerman is the aggressor (big laugh at if), then Trayvon is legally allowed to stand his ground with reasonable force, so anything Trayvon did attack wise, within reason, is lawful force… so Zimmerman cant really claim unlawful force was used on him

        Lastly, there’s no proof that Trayvon even hit Zimmerman or caused his wuss scratches and bloody nose… Zimmerman could have very well have gotten them when he was witnessed slipping and falling by Austin down the back pathway… just because Zimmerman is a clumsy idiot, it doesnt give him the right to shoot people… I mean if Zimmerman caused his own injuries, he should shoot himself and then it can be called self defense LOL

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          @Jun: Thanks for the laugh, I needed that. GZ should have sought to escape from the “deadly unarmed child”. For the first time in recorded history, the judge herself may come off the bench and lunge for Zimmerman’s throat. LoL.

          But that’s about the size of Zimmerman’s story, “he faced a deadly unarmed child”. You know, in the military they find that it’s hard to train soldiers to kill, and when soldiers do kill for their first time, some of them never get over it. It’s a very serious psychological thing killing is. I sincerely doubt that Trayvon would even consider killing anyone. I doubt he had the strength to either knock GZ to the ground, or to lift his head and push it down at all, let alone with such force that damage would be done. He simply hasn’t the strength to overcome what would be GZ’s defensive reflexes.

          Do I understand that TM wears glasses? Is he that bookish? If so, then he has little in the way of physical conditioning and so would be pretty darned weak. I was bookish in high school, I remember happening into a gym where I discovered I couldn’t lift a 25 pound plate, while this guy was doing 125 lb curls right next to where I was standing. So I was started off with 5 lb dumbbells and boy was that tough, the workout left my arms sore.

          I don’t see where TM even worked out at a gym. So he probably had no real strength at all. Yet GZ believes he can paint him as a deadly kid, it’s exasperating to say the least.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie, re Trayvon and his glasses – complaints were made that the first released photos of Trayvon were of him as a cute pre-teen.

            The thug-makers wanted him older, and threatening.

            The Professor said that there could be one (only) photo of the victim put up for the jury during the prosecution’s opening. When we had the assignment to write our openings, I said I wanted the photo of Trayvon – so tall and reedy – next to DeeDee, so tiny. I thought TM was wearing his glasses in that, though since that time I’ve seen ones without.

            But now I’ve seen another recent shot, Trayvon definitely wearing his glasses, so studious and serious – looks like he participated in a wedding – wearing a tux jacket with a floral sprig in his lapel. Sky blue tie and white shirt.

            Least “thug-like image” in the world!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            FWIW: Children don’t wear glasses to look good, they wear them because they need them. As a rule, students who wear glasses aren’t encouraged to engage in competitive contact sports. TM, might play football with his friends, but it’s all for fun, he gets no training to go with it. Thus, as a general rule, children who wear glasses are likely to be more sedentary than most. So, without any training in martial arts or self defense, TM has to be very very scared by the thought of a physical threat occurring. That’s why I say it’s extremely unlikely that TM would ever initiate contact of any kind with GZ. He doesn’t know how to do it, nor what to expect from it, so he has no idea how it might help him, and no confidence in his own abilities at all, let alone trying to apply them to an adversary who appears to be much his superior in every way.

          • Patricia says:

            Lonnie, hope you’ve seen the photo I reference – Trayvon in tux jacket, sky-blue tie, wearing glasses.

            Isn’t this the anti-thug image we want people to know as the Trayvon who was mordered?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, but, while it’s nice to pick and choose photos, this is a critical legal case, I think a picture of Trayvon that’s as contemporary as possible is the honest way to proceed. That photo can be shown later in the case. The picture to use is that of Trayvon at the 711. That’s honesty. Then, if GZ loses weight, it can be contrasted with his own contemporary photo, I’m sure the jury would appreciate his weight loss! LOL, It would make him look as guilty as sin to alter his appearance much.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie –

            Struck me that any photo within the recent year would be acceptable. Keep in mind the reaction to “the hoodie.”

            Would they show his morgue photo at any point?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I see what you mean, but, TM was no criminal, I don’t think the hoodie would have any meaning at all. Everyone wears them.
            But GZ is sure to change his appearance, away from what he was that day. So, it would be good to create a comparative: Hey, we showed our guy as he was that day, look at what they’re trying to show you and ask yourselves why?

            But this is opening statements, so I guess we’d better show TM in his glasses and well dressed. Show the other pictures later, after the jurors have a feel for who TM was.

            Yes, better! Go girl!!!

          • Patricia says:

            Thanks, Lonnie – but my original thought was to show the Trayvon-DeeDee shot, so people would be wondering, “Who’s the little girl?” This is such a NORMAL photo of NORMAL kids. Then when DeeDee testifies, the jury will have warm thoughts about their friendship. I want them to embrace DeeDee into their hearts as her testimony is so very significant. And if she stumbles at times in testimony, I want them to be loving and forgiving towards her.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, but I tend not to like overkill. The way the human mind works is, push it too hard in one direction and it rebels and moves in the opposite direction. You want to be gently suggestive and save the flaming sword for when the dragon bares it’s teeth. Otherwise, the defense will paint itself a mouse, leaving you standing there in all your glory with that flaming sword in hand. Measure for measure is the key, here.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie,

            Good wisdom there. I’ll take it. I’m a corporate speechwriter and sometimes a client comes up with some dramatic item they want inserted, at clearly an inappropriate location (if appropriate at all) and I have to back it off. My message is, sternly, “it’s not opera.” That stops it.

          • cielo62 says:

            Yes, I saw the picture. VERY nerdy! Not the photo of a “super ninja gangsta”.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, the idea of a deadly unarmed teen is a very tough sell and GZ knows it. Which is why he turns to the idea that his own gun, the weapon he brought to the matter, was his reason to fear for his life. Unfortunately, at some point he gains total control of the weapon, and so he no longer has anything to fear. Yet, he shoots anyway. MOM’s gonna need Harry Potter on this one.

          • cielo62 says:

            Sorry, not even Harry Potter could save him. Harry Potter was always for the victim!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            MOM is quickly becoming another GZ victim. No?

        • Patricia says:

          @Jun –

          I appreciate the force of your narrative, Right on! One observation I’d like to add, in agreement, is that Trayvon was a child – no matter how fast he was sprouting up.

          Note that in FDLE documents, Trayvon’s name is spelled:

          Trayvon Benjamin Martin (Juvenile)

          The State of Florida takes Trayvon’s age VERY seriously. It has been suggested we refer to him as the “young man.” I usually refer to him as a “teen.” But legally, he is a JUVENILE. So you are so right – this was a child. How dreadful to terrorize him like this, and to snuff out a young life that had such promise!

          Height is not what matters, experience matters. How could Trayvon have any idea how to protect himself against a predator like Zimmerman? He had no “life experience” to prepare for this tragedy.

          Again, thank you for your forceful and complete narrative. Excellent!

      • gblock says:

        “Then, if GZ loses weight, it can be contrasted with his own contemporary photo, I’m sure the jury would appreciate his weight loss! LOL, It would make him look as guilty as sin to alter his appearance much.”

        Lonnie – I’m not sure that I would agree with this. He could probably claim that the stress he had been under caused him to lose weight.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Would that explanation be acceptable to you, with a witness who had so badly impeached himself already? Or would you likely add it to the strange appearance of the butterfly bandages that the medics didn’t find necessary that night?

          Or the “have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at”, and “I was walking back to my car to meet them”, after not getting an address from where he had walked to RVC?

          At least we have on tape that he didn’t want to go back to his car, but we only find out that he was going there, after he killed the kid.
          The jury will want to know if he’s possibly capable of telling lies, eh? Jurors are kind of sensitive about that.

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      I think the gun or the casing popped his nose after he pulled the trigger. Initial welt on nose went down by the time SPD snapped a pic in the station.

  80. I read this on the debate page. Could someone please respond to it in a way that I can understand. This guy spews information as if he is the end all be all: “AJ Noiter @Cindy, your information is not accurate. First, it will be the defense using the Hearsay Rule of Completeness, not the prosecution. Second, all that is REQUIRED for a jury to receive self-defense instructions is an indication that self-defense was used – basically the defendant, through counsel, just has to say “it was self defense” and they would get an instruction. The medical records will be used in trial/Dennis hearing to show that Mr. Zimmerman did suffer great bodily harm (broken nose) and authorized him to react with the force that he did. Zimmerman does NOT have to testify, and it doesn’t matter what YOU think about it, facts are not facts just because you think they are.”

    • cielo62 says:

      There is zero proof that GZs nose was ever broken, so there is zero justification to assume he was in danger. Like he said, the FACTS are what they are!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’ve observed AJ Noiter’s line of thinking over many months’ time on the GZLC FB. He tends to omit any evidence, facts, or testimony not convenient to his support of GZ.

    • AJ has trashed the professor! but the way i see it is that i would take the professor words! over that zimmernut any day of the week! one week AJ is a medical expert! then hes a law expert need i say more lol

    • Xena says:

      First, it will be the defense using the Hearsay Rule of Completeness, not the prosecution.

      In layman’s terms, he is saying that he already knows what evidence the State will present and MOM on cross can present evidence to flesh out GZ’s various stories in effort to show he did not present inconsistencies.

      It will go something like this;

      • MichelleO says:

        PITIFUL. I can barely watch him. Had to scroll down to listen and not view.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        LOL!

      • cielo62 says:

        My entire time/mass continuum went “WHAT??”

      • Nellie Nell says:

        As much as I can not stand the sight of him nor think his actions are funny or justifiable, this clip made me laugh! Time warp, light years and body mass that disappears??? This his how dumb Zimmerman really believe people to be.

        I want him on the stand and I want to watch every moment of his day in court to explain himself. I am sure that his mumbo jumbo will sound much like the clip!!! His forgetfulness from memory loss when it suits will not blow over so well in court.

        You see a guy that you’ve been watching take off running but you can not explain the run. Full flight, jog, light run or what George? He does not remember. Five months later he remembers that it was not a run at all – turns out it was a skip! Seems like he’d told dispatch, “Oh shit, he’s skipping”?

    • Xena says:

      The medical records will be used in trial/Dennis hearing to show that Mr. Zimmerman did suffer great bodily harm (broken nose) and authorized him to react with the force that he did. Zimmerman does NOT have to testify …

      In layman’s terms, the person is saying that all MOM has to do is present GZ’s medical records of having a broken nose, without any testimony of the person treating GZ. See what is wrong with that picture? The medical report does not say it was broken. There is no medical imagining to confirm if he even has a nose, much less a broken one. MOM will not be able to find any witness to say that, without a doubt, GZ’s nose was broken.

    • Patricia says:

      @diary,

      That guy sounds rabid.

      It’s evident from photographs and EMT reports that Zimmerman had a nosebleed – whether it was from his own clumsiness, nobody knows.

      It is only Zimmerman’s opinion that it was “broken.” No MD checked it out and reported a diagnosis in writing after the shooting, despite urgings of law enforcement and fire/rescue officers that he seek medical attention – base on Zimmerman’s own complaints.

      There is no forensic evidence on Trayvon Martin’s hands or sleeves (both garments) to support any claim by Zimmerman that Zimmerman was, in any way, attacked by Trayvon Martin.

      Zimmerman killed the only other direct witness, Trayvon Martin, to how Zimmerman bloodied his nose.

      Zimmerman, the person making the claim thast he was attacked, is not a disinterested bystander. The petrson who is making this claim is a guy facing a minimum of 25 years in prison for Murder 2..

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Nor is evidence, evidence, just because someone thinks it is.
      It is established that GZ suffered wounds, but there’s no way to connect them to TM. The fact is, we simply have no way of knowing where those wounds came from. TM bears no evidence of having caused them. Nor do the wounds themselves display the kind of damage they should have, if they were caused in the way that was claimed.

      You can’t just say “these wounds were caused by that man”, yet “that man” was never there to cause them. GZ has given definitive testimony about how he obtained his wounds, yet the supportive evidence is absent. Thus, we are given no reason to believe the claims that TM caused these wounds, other than the self serving statements of GZ.

      Even then, were it so, we have no reason to believe that the wound creation was a proximal reason for the need to shoot to kill, because they are claimed to have happened so far away from the place where the fatal shot was fired.

      As if GZ is saying: “Several minutes ago, several yards away, I was placed in fear for my life and that was the reason that later when we got way over here, I had to pull my gun out and shoot him.” I don’t know, but somehow I don’t think that’s going to be a winning self defense argument. Anyone???

      • You said,

        “As if GZ is saying: “Several minutes ago, several yards away, I was placed in fear for my life and that was the reason that later when we got way over here, I had to pull my gun out and shoot him.” I don’t know, but somehow I don’t think that’s going to be a winning self defense argument. Anyone???”

        Good point.

        This is why the self-defense rule is objective requiring a reasonable perception of “imminent danger.”

        When that danger has passed, the person no longer is legally justified to use deadly force.

        The Zimbots do not realize that, even if everything Zimmerman said is true, he has admitted that he was not reasonably in imminent danger of death or serious injury when he fired the fatal shot.

        That is all that matters.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Nor should we forget that, at the time the shot is fired GZ says, he had one of his hands on TM’s chest, possibly in the way of the gun in his other hand, and he was in the process of making sure he did not shoot himself in his hand.

          Certainly sounds like the danger to himself has passed, since he can worry about his other hand and concentrate on taking aim, eh?
          I mean, what is TM doing with his own hands at this point, that makes GZ believe he will be killed if he doesn’t shoot?

          Or, put another way, what can TM do with his hands, while being held at gunpoint, that can reasonably cause GZ to die suddenly?

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I agree! Wouldn’t it be satisfactory for George to admit that his actions were not warranted and save himself, his family, the Martin family and the rest of the country from further damage? It is amazing that he is dragging this out and further hurting the Martin’s after killing their kid. Up until a few days ago the Zimmerman’s offered no apology to the Martin’s. The fake apology by his brother did not put any responsibility on George at all. His claims of not having the opportunity to apologize was another bold faced lie that the Zimmerman clan is accustomed to. This spiritual family has no problem with telling lies and being honest people. Shame on them

      • Dee says:

        In the video when GZ was showing the detective what happen in part 2 around 1:52-1:53. GZ said oh, back there is when they asked me if I was following him, then said we don’t need you to do that. This is when GZ should have left this matter alone. Even though he said that TM came up behind him does not sound like something a kid would do, he was moving away from Zimmerman not toward him. GZ keep on perusing TM and this is when the confrontation happen. If someone shows me a gun I would be hallowing to for my life. People that carry guns are not going to be the one that is hallowing. GZ had to add that into his example because he knows that they heard TM hallowing and he knew that he had to say that it was him. They did not even do and DNA on the butt of the gun to see if GZ did not use the but of his gun to give himself these injuries. If you look at them it looks like something that was self inflicted, not injuries consisting of a head being slammed against cement.

        GZ was mostly on something or maybe not taking some meds that he was suppose to take, and now he is taking them, This is mostly likely what is causing this weight gain in such a short period of time. Or his is eating everything in the world that he loves because now he can afford it because they are supporting him, something that I have never heard of. Why cant offers that are in trouble get the people of this country to support them, especially if they are black. I never seen nothing like this is my life. This man was also caught moving money around by his family in safe deposit boxes in case the money would stop. Now they claimed they needed more money His spending over a 250,000.000 a year to live. I live on a hell of a lot less that that. This is absolutely crazy what is going on. But he’s eating like he’s crazy because he knows that he lies are about to catch up with him, he has had it to good. Now it’s time for TM to allow his spirit to move on in peace. And to say when people can walk in the rain to go to the store is crazy this is a free world and he could walk in the rain, show or thunderstorm if he wanted to, now they are going to start telling people or should I said Black when we are allow to walk places.

    • bettykath says:

      diaryofasuccessfulloser,

      “First, it will be the defense using the Hearsay Rule of Completeness, not the prosecution.”

      From the professors information above: “Subject to the Rule of Completion, the prosecution may introduce any statement [GZ] made under the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule. The Rule of Completeness permits the defense to clarify the meaning or intent of any statement offered by the prosecution by completing the statement.” Scroll back to the top for examples of this.

      “Second, all that is REQUIRED for a jury to receive self-defense instructions is an indication that self-defense was used – basically the defendant, through counsel, just has to say “it was self defense” and they would get an instruction.”

      I don’t believe this is true. The attorney cannot testify and that’s what he would be doing if he hasn’t presented any evidence to support it.

      “The medical records will be used in trial/Dennis hearing to show that Mr. Zimmerman did suffer great bodily harm (broken nose) and authorized him to react with the force that he did.”

      The medical records will undoubtedly be submitted and will have to be introduced by the person who did the examination. This person would also be cross examined by the prosecution. All this person can say is that GZ showed up with these injuries and this is what she did to treat them. The person canNOT say (hearsay) what GZ said about how he got the injuries. The assertion that he got a broken nose is not supported by the medical records. It may have been a broken nose but the person who treated him didn’t say it was. She recommended he go to the ENR to find out. GZ didn’t go.

      “Zimmerman does NOT have to testify, and it doesn’t matter what YOU think about it, facts are not facts just because you think they are.”

      This is true. Zimmerman does not have to testify, but he is the only one who can assert self-defense. The medical records alone don’t prove a thing. He could have fallen in the bath tub. HE is the only one who can say TM beat him to an inch of his life (which his injuries don’t support). There are no witnesses to support a claim of self-defense. It is GZ’s credibility that will make the difference.

      • Patricia says:

        @BettyKath –

        “There are no witnesses to support a claim of self-defense.
        It is GZ’s credibility that will make the difference.”

        Strong conclusion – SANE conclusion. Thanks!

      • bettykath says:

        I have one more thought on what the person meant by the ” Hearsay Rule of Completeness”. This person may believe that if the prosecution uses any part of any statement of GZ’s that the defense gets to put the entire statement into evidence.

        For example, if the prosecution uses part 1 of the walk-thru which tells of GZ following TM and getting out of his truck but they don’t use part 2 where GZ talks about his ramble over to RVC and the “attack” by TM, that the defense can use the rule of completeness to enter part 2 into evidence.

        If I understand the professor correctly, they will be unsuccessful. GZ’s “statement” in part 1 would not be distorted to suggest something other than what he actually said and meant. If the defense wants the stuff from part 2 entered into evidence, then GZ takes the stand.

        The walk-thru is used as an example of how the prosecution might use just part of a GZ statement but not all of it. Please assume that part 1 has relevance on its own. Most everyone has seen part 1 and part 2 of the walk-thru and I don’t want to crawl thru GZ’s many statements to find a better example.

      • You said,

        ““Second, all that is REQUIRED for a jury to receive self-defense instructions is an indication that self-defense was used – basically the defendant, through counsel, just has to say “it was self defense” and they would get an instruction.”

        I don’t believe this is true. The attorney cannot testify and that’s what he would be doing if he hasn’t presented any evidence to support it.”

        You are correct. There has to be some evidence admitted that, if true, would support a claim of self-defense.

        Let’s not forget, however, that even if a self-defense instruction is given, it will be meaningless to the jury without evidence to support it.

        The prosecution should not have any trouble proving Zimmerman did not act in self-defense when there is little or no evidence of self-defense in the record.

        This is why Zimmerman must testify.

      • Angelia says:

        I am so glad you and the Prof cleared that up, regarding the “rule of completion” being too broad, Bettykath! I had the same question regarding a post higher in the thread when the Prof stated that it would be a good idea for the prosecution to introduce the wristlock and the beyond hand/aim/shoot statements, in the case in chief. I thought that might open those statements up to the defense, thereby allowing GZ’s statements on the record without his testimony. I knew I was missing something crucial, but didn’t know what.

        Thanks to both of you, I can now apply this information to my question and that clears it up tremendously. Great post!

        (Nef)

      • Nellie Nell says:

        It is amazing that he is still sticking to the story of a “broken nose” to support such claim. I broke my toe once, tried to write it off as a simple injury but by the next day I was confident that my toe was broken, The swelling and the pain alerted me to seek medical attention. The 1st thing done at the Urgent Care was an x-ray of the toe – sure enough it was broken. During George’s re-enactment there were no signs of swelling or the black eyes as he and his family claims.

        It’s also so ridiculous because they hadn’t seen George in years. In fact, when he murdered Trayvon, his family was not the 1st people that he contacted – it was Mark Osterman. I am inclined to think that the family only learned about this family embarrassment when the rest of the country did, almost a month later on the news.

        They are pathetic people!

  81. Fed-up taxpayer says:

    What if the O’M and the jury decide not to follow the rules, and convince the jury through repeated hearsay (even if objected by prosecution) that GZ’s assertions be evidence? Have you experienced a case where enough smoke was blown to blur evidence?

    • If O’Mara, or any lawyer for that matter, persists in attempting to elicit inadmissible hearsay despite the Court’s ruling sustaining an objection, he will be held in contempt and taken to jail.

      Judges don’t put up with that kind of crap.

      • MichelleO says:

        PROFESSOR, another poster made the statement that Georgy was perhaps acting like a serial killer when he sat on the body, like a bear sits on its prey, and when he would go back and forth observing and touching the dead body. This poster said that he probably kept a souvenir in order to relish his kill later on. Is sounds plausible to me, because many of his actions resemble a Ted Bundy: somebody who displays a low-key demeanor which throws people off, and uses this as a ploy to offend and get away with it.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        If he did keep a souvenir, he must’ve put it in his wallet where SPD would never find it.

      • jm says:

        Professor: I am not a professional and not well-versed on legal matters like you and most of your posters, but I have 2 questions.

        1. In opening statement in Casey Anthony, Jose Baez accused George Anthony of sexual abuse in very explicit terms. Was it legally acceptable for Jose Baez to accuse George Anthony of sexual abuse in an opening statement with no proof of the accusation.

        2. In prison phone calls, George Zimmerman says Mark O’Mara knew about money in Paypal account. Will the Zimmerman recorded prison phone call regarding MOM knowing about funds in Paypal account, yet he MOM claimed Zimmerman was indigent, ever be addressed by the court?

  82. Lonnie Starr says:

    If GZ does choose to testify, out of some misguided sense of personal majesty, the SP can ask him the same question that made him giggle on SH’s show. I’m sure the jury would love to hear that little giggle over TM’s death. What a spectacle as the court fills with officers grappling with enraged jurors, to keep them from reaching GZ. LOL.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Sounds like George is doomed if he takes the stand or not! I want him to take the stand so that he can be drilled about his actions and inconsistencies. He has to explain why he felt that his life was in danger which is why he was forced to pull his gun, aim by missing his own arm and then pull that trigger.

      This entire case has been sloppy from the start. I am still confused as to who the Asian guy is in the photos that was behind the police tape. Why was he there? Would he not have contaminated the crime scene? Could he be Jeremy? I sure hope that Jeremy tells the truth and stop trying to protect a maniac criminal. George has plenty of family that are trying to protect him including the My Space account that a family member tried to lie about by saying that it was owned by George. You know the “datniggy” account that was immediately deleted once the pictures of George and Shelley were questioned.

  83. cielo62 says:

    From your mouth to God’s ears, Professor!

  84. Kelly Payne says:

    Those bushes are only 2 to 3ft tall and they are too close to the buildings. It would have been impossible for trayvon to hide behind those bushes.

    • Patricia says:

      @Kelly –

      Absolutely. I was amazed the detective interviewing GZ didn’t say, “THOSE bushes? What was that guy – a midget?”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It depends on the angles the photos are shot from. In some, it does look like the bushes stand a bit away from the wall. I doubt a tall kid would bother to try to hide behind them, especially one who is distracted by a phone call.

      • jun says:

        I dont even know why Z thinks a kid hiding in bushes helps him. If a kid is running away from and hides from you when you’re a deranged stranger, its gonna lead to the conclusion that Z continued his stalking and the kid was hiding and running away to avoid him.

  85. Malisha says:

    Can anybody tell me where to find a transcript of Mark Osterman’s interview with Dr. Phil? I am interested in the part of it where Osterman refers to Police Chief Bill Lee as “Billy” and I am curious about the sentence, and perhaps paragraph, in which those words appear. What were they talking about when Osterman mentioned Lee? I should have watched the thing on TV but I found that I had run out of my anti-nausea meds and didn’t want to risk it. (I had watched the whole Zimmerman/Hannity thing and was sick for days.) :mrgreen:

    • Justice4TBM says:

      I think he called him “Billy” during his interview with WOFL

      • rachael says:

        Sounds like Billy Lee to my medical transcription ears. Th-th-th-that’s all folks!

        😉

      • Malisha says:

        “Billy Lee” it was. Markie Ostermanie’s buddy Billy. But to think that the police, the prosecutor, and “maybe” the Mayor and “maybe” others would get together “just to exonerate George Zimmerman” — that’s not “realistic” to Osterman? But the possibility of dying from “capillary lacerations” on the noggin and a bump on the nosey wosey IS realistic to him? So we have here, ladies and gentlemen, a measure of the relative realism of material appearances in the mind of an author. HO HUM DUMB and a bottle of RUM.

      • katieunc says:

        Notice how he talks about GZ’s black friends as past tense. Token white friend….Pffttttt……token idiot seems more appropriate

    • jm says:

      There is definitely a double lee as in Billy Lee and not plain Bill Lee.

    • Xena says:

      @Malisha. Since it’s Dr. Phil, you might have to order the transcript. IIRC, I did see something on his web site about ordering transcripts of programs.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Mark Osterman is a liar just like George. He tried to downplay his relationship to Lee by saying that he would not recognize him if they were standing next to each other in a store. An excerpt from his penned book says that Lee was more like a father figure. Now which on is it Mark as it can not be both!!! Billy Lee supervised him for several years.

      I wonder where all the Black friends of George’s are. I wonder why none has come to his defense publicly. I also have been wondering why the kids that he mentored has not surfaced publicly even under anonymity. It is hard to believe that none of these so-called Black friends were not interviewed by the FBI. The fact that George would label Osterman as his “white token friend” also speaks volumes. Why the hell would you need a token friend? Why the hell would you need a white token friend? Why would you need a white token friend in law enforcement? Osterman is known to be dishonest which is why he lost his job at the force so who would believe anything that he says?

      Not to mention that he gave George another gun and let him out of the house late at night again! He is as sick as George with his big meaty head!

  86. Patricia says:

    @ Justice4TBM – EXCELLENT analysis.

    Hope the Professor will respond.

  87. Justice4TBM says:

    I hope you wont mind one more clarification. It’s been said that Zimmerman had to contemporaneously provoke the force Martin used against him to be considered the initial aggressor.

    My interpretation of “contemporaneous threat” is that because from the moment Zimmerman first started stalking/following Martin, that ALL the events between 7:08 and 7:17 were contemporaneous to one another. Because the threat was constantly escalating, until, IMO, Zimmerman actually reached for his gunphone, (Trayvon may have interpreted Zimmerman’s reaching in his pocket as going for a weapon), and right through to the moment Trayvon was shot… it was ALL an escalating contemporaneous threat to Trayvon. A threat that Zimmerman, by his OWN ACCOUNT, refused to explain to Trayvon when given the opportunity when asked by Trayvon to explain his behavior.

    Also that contemporaneous means “period of time”, not simultaneous.

    Would you essentially agree with this?

    • Justice4TBM says:

      Oh… and also married with that notion. Because of the requirement of statute 776.041(a) Zimmerman not only had to believe he was imminent danger he ALSO had to have exhausted ALL means to escape danger.

      Isn’t it clear, that he chose to follow into the presumed danger of Trayvon’s footsteps (regardless of why), that he did NOT exhaust all means to escape the supposed danger Trayvon posed?

      Therefore, as first aggressor, he failed to meet the second half of statute 776.041(a), (escape danger), … and can’t claim self-defense EVEN IF HE DID FEAR FOR HIS LIFE. (which I don’t believe he did…)

      He has to meet BOTH requirements, not just fear for his life/bodily harm.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        Prosecution can’t assume any aggression on Martin’s part– there’s no evidence!

      • Dee says:

        Yes, he could have escaped danger when they told him not to follow him. He said this twice when he was telling the detective what happen in the video, He said oh, back there is where they asked me if I was following him. So back their is where he should have stood down, Not where he was when he was explaining what else happened. It is on part 2 of the video of GZ re-enacting what happened. it is at 1:52-53

    • MichelleO says:

      THAT was a frightened child’s question: Why are you following me?

      May that child rest in peace.

      • thejbmission says:

        MichelleO,
        I totally agree with you. That was the most logical well thought question of the entire event on Feb 26. Every time I think about him asking that question, I want to cry.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The only reason I can find for GZ not answering that question is: He was willfully ill intended! There just isn’t another way to interpret GZ’s response and subsequent actions. That was a time for talking and GZ brutally slapped it aside. GZ failed to answer, he failed to rephrase his own question, he failed to explain his actions, he failed to say who he was, he failed to acknowledge his own lack of the authority needed to have his questions answered. He failed to acknowledge that he had no right to block, impede, or otherwise hamper the kids ability to move around. And, in fact, he had no right to even approach or follow or do anything he did that night.

          Just by getting close to this kid, under any and all views of the circumstances given, was unlawful and GZ shows that he knew it by the lies he tells. I wouldn’t even call him a “vigilante” any longer, because he wasn’t trying to enforce any law. or correct any wrong, or even obtain any revenge! In fact he was engaged in willfully breaking the law himself. That makes him a deadly, murderous stalker.

          The hands of a 17 year old child are not deadly weapons. There is no one on the planet who can show that anyone thinks that they are. Yet, GZ tries to make Trayvon’s hands into deadly weapons, a most unreasonable offer.

          Trayvon was unskilled at fighting, had no idea or confidence that he could fight. Had no interest in fighting with someone larger, older and with more life experience than he. He wanted only to be left alone, to get away from his tormentor. Instead he was fatally shot, by a tormentor who would not let him go!

          GZ knew nothing about this kid except that he was in his late teens and had committed no crime GZ was aware of! If that made GZ suspicious, then his sole remedy was to call the police to come investigate, AND HE KNEW THAT!!! Thus there is no reason at all for him to leave his truck, not to get an address, not to relieve himself. His only lawful choices that evening were, either wait for police to arrive, or go ahead with his shopping trip. Because he didn’t do either of those things, he is now a cold blooded killer.
          He can wear “CBK” after his name for his remaining days.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie –

            You are so right.

            Logical, intelligent question: “Why you following me for?”

            Logical, intelligent answer: “I’m the Neighborhood Watch guy here. May I help you?”

            The 17-year old was logical and intelligent.

            The 28-year old was a stalker, out for “glory” as a wanna-be cop.

            Truth be told, he should NOT have been out of that truck! NO authorization to pursue this kid! No authorization to confront! NO auhorization to KILL.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            GZ has no good reasons for doing anything he did that night, except to call either 911 or the NEN number, that NW are instructed to call. GZ’s call to NEN, we have to remember, was not to report a crime, or even criminal activity! His call was made to report, a person who he deemed to be suspicious because, he was walking slowly in the rain and looking about.

            The policeman dispatched to answer his call, was not coming to prevent some crime in progress, nor was he coming to catch up with some wanted criminal. He was responding to a call about a person who George Zimmerman did not know, and could not believe had a lawful reason for being on the estate. That is all it boils down to. The officer was coming to check out GZ’s claims!

            Had nothing else transpired, the officer would have learned only that George Zimmerman was once again mistaken in his beliefs that trouble was brewing.

        • Patricia says:

          Yes, JB, and I cry in my heart each time I see Trayvon’s body under the tarp, one wet sneaker sticking out in the rain, with NOBODY by that body until the coroner’s van showed up. If his parents have seen that photo, it must grieve them to see his body desolate – except for the photographer – with no respect or care shown. No care, or respect, or love, or humanity at all.

          Damn that George Zimmerman!

      • bettykath says:

        Lonnie,

        GZ didn’t answer the question b/c cops ask questions, they don’t answer them. It’s part of the intimidation involved in asserting their authority.

        Remember GZ’s discussion with D. Singleton where he asks if she ever shot someone? From GZ’s pov she didn’t b/c no one would question her authority.

        Unfortunately, GZ really had no authority except in his own mind. TM didn’t know GZ was a NW person or a cop wannabe b/c GZ didn’t tell him. GZ didn’t have to tell him b/c he was the authority who going to make sure this f… a… hole suspect didn’t get away.

      • Tzar says:

        Patricia wrote:
        “Yes, JB, and I cry in my heart each time I see Trayvon’s body under the tarp, one wet sneaker sticking out in the rain, with NOBODY by that body until the coroner’s van showed up. If his parents have seen that photo, it must grieve them to see his body desolate – except for the photographer – with no respect or care shown. No care, or respect, or love, or humanity at all. ”

        Me too my dear
        this llmpapa video consoles me every once in a while, it also reminds me why I keep an eye on this case, Trayvon will not be left alone anymore.

      • @Lonnie…..I’ve encountered a few GZ supporters (on another site) that claim…If Trayvon was so frightened of the guy following him, why didn’t HE call 911? (Just another case of blaming the TRUE victim.) Can the defense use this ridiculous idea to try to argue that Trayvon couldn’t have been that afraid of GZ?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Not at all… Where would Trayvon find the time? He thought he’d lost the guy and he was occupied talking to his girlfriend. He’s a teen, and a black teen at that, he’s already heard the stories about how police lack concern for blacks, and he has no time to call before GZ captures him. Besides a scared teenager would not call the police anyway on an adult, because he’d assume the adult would be taken more seriously than himself. So he’s got a double wall against it.

          If another argument is needed, then here’s the third one: TM has no reason to believe the police can respond in time to do any good.

          • cielo62 says:

            THANK YOU LONNIE! I wondered why Martin didn’t call 911 himself, but what you say makes perfect sense. I work with kids (elementary school) and kids are notorious for NOT telling adults rather important bits of information. It seems that kids feel that it’s hard to know which adults to trust and which ones will blow them off. Teenagers think this way even MORE so.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It also occurred to me that kids learn by watching. Now think about how adults react when police are called to locations at or near their buildings/houses. My guess is the kids realize it’s a really big deal and never any thing good. After all, the police don’t come calling to deliver pizza, greetings or lottery prizes. A kid would find it hard to believe that they have a right to cause that kind of ruckus. Funny thing is, they’ll call if someone else they care about is in trouble, but that’s probably out of sheer desperation, not knowing what else to do, and/or having specific instructions to do so in such cases.

            So, it just wouldn’t occur to Trayvon that the police would come simply to aid or defend him. No one bothers to give their kids such specific instructions because it seems so obvious to us as adults. While the kid is thinking only of a few very specific things police are to be called for. General self defense isn’t obvious to them, as a reason to call the police.

            If you walked into an office and someone struck you, you’d call the police right away. On the other hand, if a child walks into their school and someone strikes them, they generally just suck it up.
            If they cry and the teacher questions them, the matter gets handled without the police being called.

          • cielo62 says:

            Again you are so right. Add in the “minority factor” and you’d have several good reasons to not call the cops.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        He was almost home and thought that he’d lost the “creepy dude” that had been following him for no apparent reason. Even if he’d made it home safely, I doubt that he would have called the police to report the “creepy dude”. He may not have shared that scary moment with his father the next day.

        I also did not appreciate the way Serino says that he wished that Trayvon would have run away. I am not sure if this was some kind of detective throw-off, but that was exactly what Trayvon tried to do – run away! George is telling you that he chased him down (in so many words) so how dare him try to blame the victim!!!

      • rachael says:

        He was already on the phone. It happened to me once when I was already on the phone and something scary happened. I felt like since I was on the phone already, I was safe if something happened because if I hung up, I might not have a chance to call 911. I felt safer already on the phone, talking to someone, like it was my lifeline.

        There are rumors though that Trayvon did try to call 911

        http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/did-trayvon-martin-call-911-before-he-was-shot/

        http://magic3400.newsvine.com/_news/2012/04/02/10987679-did-trayvon-martin-call-911-before-he-was-shot-maybe

      • bettykath says:

        The historical relationship between black kids and cops is not a good one. Kids get instruction how not to p…. of the cops. A look at the statistics on how many black kids get rousted for no reason, beat up and killed suggests that the instructions are necessary and, unfortunately, still don’t protect them.

  88. jun says:

    I feel if Georgy Porgy takes the stand, & they decide to charge perjury for each count, Z would break a world record. I have never seen a man lie so much.

  89. katieunc says:

    Makes sense to me……. are jurors instructed to use the evidence and their common sense?

    • Patricia says:

      Thanks, katieunc –

      If it was so dark (and it was), what bushes did GZ see that Trayvon supposedly came out of? How did GZ see these 6 ft. tall bushes that Trayvon supposedly hid behind?

      How come the bushes weren’t there 18 hours later during the SPD video re-enactment?

      • katieunc says:

        GZ is a liar and has zero common sense. He has proven over and over that he is guilty. This guy is willing to dig his own 6ft hole. Common sense tells me if someone is walking about, possibly has a weapon, and then takes off running that you should protect yourself. Protecting yourself by staying in your vehicle; that’s common sense right?

        How does a person forget they have a gun on them…… how about that common sense? Not to mention the holster he carried is not exactly a side holster. The holster is worn just past the right side above your butt. This tells me you have to lift your ass up to pull the gun. GZ sure was a multi tasker.

    • Love Trent Sawyer… He and LLMPapa are the bomb!

      • MichelleO says:

        I LIKE Trent too—-although I am disappointed that he did not stay anonymous. These Zimmerfreaks are scarey—just like Georgy.

    • bettykath says:

      I don’t things happened as laid out in this video. He has spoken about another inconsistency and a GZ slip up. I just don’t accept his interpretation.

      • MichelleO says:

        YOU mean the mysterious lights and such? Those light blobs throw me off too. I can’t make heads or tails out of those things.

      • Trent says:

        Then how do you think it happened? There are several possible ways and scenarios that could have taken place. But they all fall along the same lines. GZ and TM somehow met up between GZ truck and the ‘T’ on that sidewalk next to w11/jeremy’s house. The details from there are whats in question. GZ has given us at least 6 different versions. I can only go on what the evidence shows, and since we know GZ is not capable of telling the truth I have to piece it all together with what I know, and this puzzle has several different solutions provided by the missing time that we have to fill in the gaps based on witnesses and evidence and GZ lies of how he says things happened – there is always some truth in a lie.

        As far as the other poster who doesn’t understand the light movements, thats understandable. However, I do understand them and have matched them up to the GZ call to police and the police arriving on scene. I knew before it was released in evidence that the timestamps are wrong. I have over 75 pages of notes now on GZ timeline of events based on those CCV tapes – and yes – those light movements do tell a story. And you can see GZ searching with his working flashlight in those CCV tapes. I realize it is hard to understand with my videos, I’m sure the state will hire someone with better equipment than me to present their case of the CCV tapes…..but GZ is getting his wish alot of his lies are captured on tape.

        The point to all of my videos, no matter what theory they follow, or what lie of GZ they pick apart, the point of them is to show no matter how you present the data…..GZ is guilty of 2nd murder. The state can present it any way they want to, they also have to fill in the unknowns – GZ can only tell it 1 way … he only gets 1 story…and we all know he has at least 6 up to now.

      • bettykath says:

        What’s with the lights? The only lights I have seen are from the security cameras in the club house. They don’t show what happened in the path area. Is there another reference?

      • gblock says:

        I think it’s more likely that the physical altercation (however it happened) started a ways south of the T, on the dog walk path, not near the T was postulated in the video.

      • Tzar says:

        PFL said: “Thanks for your excellent work. You are relentless and fearless in your search for the truth. Plus, you make me laugh.”

        I have to co-sign this to the fullest
        even when I don’t agree with Trent (rarely and I have seen most of his vids) he has me cracking up

      • shannoninmiami says:

        Hi, in Trents videos he points out in the CCVs when and where and why the lights are moving around even before GZ chases Trayvon in the car. there’s even a shot of GZ on foot near the clubhouse outside walking around with a flashlight. You can even see him pull in and pull out.
        Then over there by w11, there’s pretty compelling evidence that W11 turned on the front porch and coulda spoke to GZ before He attacked Tray. Trent has gone to great lengths to LEAVE NO LIE unchallenged!!
        He’s realised GZ had hung around the area around and in front of the club house for several minutes.doing god knows what, before Tray made it back to the nighboorhood from the trip to 711.

      • Trent says:

        Fred,
        Thank you. I do stop by from time to time. I have come to the point where I don’t comment alot about the case anymore, except the youtube videos and twitter. But for some reason the comment I posted to compelled me to comment.

        Thank you for linking my video and allowing others to link my videos. I enjoy reading your blog.

        If I’m not mistaken I believe I talk to your wife/girlfriend/partner (not sure exactly the relationship) in youtube comments. I like her style if its her 😉

        Thanks Again,

        Trent

      • Trent says:

        @shannoninmiami thank you for getting my videos. I know they are crude, but i am not a film maker, nor do i have sophisticated video editing software. I know they are hard to follow sometimes, so I am grateful that you understood them and explained and defended them like you did.

        thank you 😉 😉

        • Patricia says:

          Trent, fer Gawdsakes, don’t become a polished filmmaker!

          The power of your work is that it is so visceral.

          You are unique.

          Also, adorable.

      • Trent says:

        @patricia Thank you 😉 That’s very nice of you 😉

        • Patricia says:

          Hey Trent, – it isn’t every guy I call adorable.

          Look, you’re right up there with Cielo’s cat (and South’n Girl’s, too).
          I often think Cielo’s cat (with the tongue stuck out) is channeling Trent.

          Stay yourself! Don’t enroll in the USC School of Cinema. Don’t invest in computer video programs. TELL IT LIKE IT IS, BABY!
          That’s what you’ve been doing, and we love it.

      • Trent i loved your video`s they are awesome! those Zfans are idiots 🙂

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      The teacher, who watched the confrontation from her window, did not witness any punching. Too many scenarios assume elements of one or another of GZ’s stories; nothing indicates that any punches were thrown.

      • logi says:

        @Trent
        I love your videos and I am a subscriber. I am with you on witness 11. I hope someone rolls on George. Keep up the GREAT work.

      • Trent says:

        @logi thank you 😉 My ultimate dream is that W11/Jeremy come clean during the O’mara depos. That would just be the sweetest gift possible. Fingers crossed 😉

  90. Justice4TBM says:

    Is there ANY evidence, other than Zimmerman’s claims that Trayvon hit Zimmerman AT ALL?

    It’s just as likely, IMO, that in chasing after Trayvon, trying to apprehend him, Zimmerman ran face first into the tree, injured his nose, tried to regain his footing (the mulch around the tree is obviously disturbed and spread through out the grass) , and then perhaps fell back due to the slippery conditions, and banged is head on the tree.

    The motions of the struggle that the witnesses describe is only “wrestling” and “back and forth motion” … which I think is akin to someone trying to keep someone from aiming a drawn gun at them.

    I seriously think even Trayvon supporters need to re-think whether Trayvon EVER hit Zimmerman AT ALL (even in self-defense), and if there’s ANY evidence of his having done so.

    I don’t think there really is. I don’t think the prosecution should concede that Trayvon was responsible AT ALL for whatever boo-boos Zimmerman had.

    • I agree that there is no reason to concede that TM hit GZ, but whether or not he did isn’t relevant because GZ was the aggressor by following and not identifying himself thereby provoking the confrontation. Martin was entitled to use reasonable force to defend himself and, in any event, GZ admitted to the police that he had TM in a wristlock before he pulled the gun and fired the fatal shot.

      Controlling someone with a wristlock and pulling a gun on him most certainly does not constitute being in imminent danger of being killed or suffering serious injury. Therefore, it does not matter what Martin did or did not do because Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense is defeated by his own words.

      • Justice4TBM says:

        Thanks. It helps clarify things for me.

      • Justice4TBM says:

        And especially thanks for the point about the wrist lock. I had never thought of that as him controlling Trayvon before, but that’s exactly what it was.

        Also, though, to me, the fact that Trayvon had no evidence of having been punched by Zimmerman tells me that Zimmerman didn’t bother to try to do anything BUT reach for his gun as opposed to trying EVERY reasonable means of escape.

        While Trayvon was supposedly banging his head… what was Zimmerman doing with his hands… why wouldn’t he be beating the crap out of Trayvon? … he was too busy reaching for his gun, I believe.

      • Wes says:

        I’m assuming you learned this from watching his interrogation video? Could you tell me around how far into the video that was said? My Computers slow so I don’t wanna watch the whole thing but I’m really interested in hearing that. I don’t see how he could possibly win this case. Wouldn’t subduing him in a wrist-lock successfully prevent Trayvon from “grabbing for the gun” as Zimmerman stated.

        Also, can you explain why Zimmerman didn’t receive additional charges when he clearly hid money he received from the courts? I never understood why only his wife was charged for that, why didn’t the state seek additional charges?

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        Osterman the mentor must have addressed killing to suppress evidence. These guys think it’s all gun-totin’ romance, particularly GZ, who was subordinate to Osterman.

        I was going to say, hence no warning like “Stop,or I’ll shoot!” but it’s more likely that the warning was “Stop screaming, or I’ll shoot!”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          More likely there was no warning at all, after all, GZ was intending to shoot anyway, and was only looking for a time when no one would see the shot.

          Let’s see, there comes a point in time where: GZ has one hand on TM’s chest, the other hand drawing and point his gun at TM, and taking careful aim, all while GZ is screaming “help me, help me” at the top of his lungs as he takes the fatal shot??? ??? ??? ???

          There are six billion people on the planet, and GZ believes no one at all, will see anything wrong with this picture?

          If GZ takes the stand, the SP will focus on the sounds surrounding the shot being fired, and GZ’s narrative of what was taking place at that point in time.

          SP: Now Mr. Zimmerman, if you know, at what point during these screams, did you pull your gun?

          GZ: I don’t know.

          SP: Now you said you had one hand on his chest, that you might hit when you fired, is that true?

          GZ: I forget.

          SP: Now you say you took aim?

          GZ: I meant I was carefully pointing!

          SP: Were you still screaming at this point?

          GZ: I think I was.

          SP: What did you think Trayvon could do with his hands that might take your life suddenly then?

          GZ: I forget.

          SP: So you’ve forgotten what the danger was that forced you to shoot?

          GZ: I don’t remember.

          SP: You have a poor memory do you not?

          GZ: I don’t think so.

          SP: Well… Do you have a good memory?

          GZ: I don’t know.

          On and on, round and round he goes, where he stops know one knows. In any event the jury will be disgusted, that much is for sure. MOM knows this, but he can’t get a lesser charge or a lesser sentence by plea bargaining, because GZ has totally destroyed any reasonable defense from any possible angle.
          The only thing MOM can do is stand there like a statue and let the SP fling mud at his client. Perhaps MOM will instigate a fight with GZ so that he can withdraw and leave the case to his co counsel?

          I can’t see a way out for GZ because there is no threat proximal to the shooting at all.

      • Tzar says:

        LOnnie Star wrote:
        “SP: Now Mr. Zimmerman, if you know, at what point during these screams, did you pull your gun?

        GZ: I don’t know.

        SP: Now you said you had one hand on his chest, that you might hit when you fired, is that true?

        GZ: I forget.

        SP: Now you say you took aim?

        GZ: I meant I was carefully pointing!

        SP: Were you still screaming at this point?

        GZ: I think I was.

        SP: What did you think Trayvon could do with his hands that might take your life suddenly then?

        GZ: I forget.

        SP: So you’ve forgotten what the danger was that forced you to shoot?

        GZ: I don’t remember.

        SP: You have a poor memory do you not?

        GZ: I don’t think so.

        SP: Well… Do you have a good memory?

        GZ: I don’t know.”

        it is most disturbing that this kind of capricious weaselly behavior has garnered any support at all.

        Dear Mr. Zimmerman

        You’ve killed someone fucktard, what do you mean you don’t remember what you thought he could have done with his hands to kill you suddenly? Don’t you think these questions deserve answers, YOU HAVE KILLED SOMEONE WHO WAS INNOCENT, should you not have an answer for such a question? is that not in itself evincing of a depraved mind? of callousness towards human life? you don’t get to not know the answer to that!!!

        Sincerely
        Society

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Oh, I never looked at it that way. Thanks for clearing that up because he certainly said that he grabbed his arm, made sure that his arm was clear and then pulled the trigger.

        I just do not understand how some folks will refuse to look at the evidence for what it is.

        What’s you take on George’s boots with the wet toes with grass stuck to them while the heels are as dry as a bone?

    • Patricia says:

      Agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY, Justice.

      Recently advanced this theory that, frankly, we’ve all been schnookered – including the prosecution – by ZIMMERMAN saying he was punched by Trayvon, then bashed like a coconut, smothered, blinded by blood in the eyes – when there is ZERO evidence that Trayvon inflicted ANY punishment on Chicken George — nor, in fact, did GZ have ANY defensive wounds from attempting to ward off those attacks!

      The photos of GZ’s hands at SPD that night right after the murder looked like GZ just came from the manicurist

      Zimmerman’s claim that GZ attacked him is on par with all other GZ claims:

      Lies.

      • Justice4TBM says:

        Amen Patricia — I agree completely!

      • MichelleO says:

        YOU know, I am still upset that the police investigators concluded that he was lying, and that his excellent demeanor and appearance conveyed that he wasn’t telling the truth, and yet they let him go? I wonder how many other police stations are operating like this? Allowing a mad man back onto the streets because the person(s) he preyed upon were viewed upon as so much garbage by our society.

      • bettykath says:

        Serino recommended manslaughter. The DA said there wasn’t enough evidence.

      • Xena says:

        After his re-enactment, Singleton pulled up GZ’s sleeves to look at his arms and asked about defensive wounds. That is where GZ’s gang tattoo is seen. GZ claimed that he had on a long sleeve shirt and jacket that prevented bruising. Yet, in his re-enactment, other than fanning towards the ground when saying he THOUGHT he was trying to get Trayvon off him, he never once says anything about warding off blows and punches.

        Singleton got him on the lack of defensive wounds because GZ gave her an excuse that his outwear prevented them rather than keeping with his story.

      • MichelleO says:

        I REALIZE that MOM must know that he has a psychotic child murderer on his hands. I wonder if some of the odd events concerning those strange televised interviews is MOM’s way of trying to hang his own client. I mean, he’s getting paid anyway, and is getting all of the notoriety he can get.

        • jm says:

          “I REALIZE that MOM must know that he has a psychotic child murderer on his hands. I wonder if some of the odd events concerning those strange televised interviews is MOM’s way of trying to hang his own client. I mean, he’s getting paid anyway, and is getting all of the notoriety he can get.”

          I wondered the same thing. MOM is milking it for what it is worth and is in win-win position financially even if he loses the defense of GZ. .

      • Tzar says:

        *slow clap*

  91. Malisha says:

    Back when two voice analysts (one using software that measured the various tonal “waves” in a voiceprint and the other simply using his ears, but after years of forensic experience doing so) both came in saying the screams heard on the 911 tape were NOT GEORGE (although they could not come up with evidence of WHO they WERE, having no example of Trayvon’s voice and there, of course, being “third person” possibilities that could not be excluded), I immediately said, “George is toast if he is charged” because of the following equations:

    Self-defense = affirmative defense that must be shown by evidence

    Evidence = either physical evidence or credible testimony

    Physical evidence of self-defense = 0

    Credible testimony of self-defense = EITHER [someone credible witnessed the confrontation] or [George is credible]

    George = NOT CREDIBLE

    Someone credible witnessed the confrontation = zero

    Therefore, no credible evidence of self-defense.

    I said, at that time (before all this other evidence was revealed), that O’Mara would not be able to put George on the stand for the simple reason that George has always insisted he yelled HELP HELP HELP and it can be credibly challenged so effectively that his credibility is worthless.

  92. jd says:

    Always glad to see a reference to Warren Zevon, RIP. Lawyers and guns he’s got. Money seems kinda tight.

    Bear in mind he’s been cross examined once already – during the very first bond hearing, and under very restricted conditions. The prosecution was not prepared for him to take the stand, but even despite these advantages he did not do well, IMO. He asserted that his statements to SPD were not inconsistent and contradictory and he said it under oath. That’s one more thing that will come back to haunt him at trial whether or not he ever takes the stand.

    • Dee says:

      Indeed GZ tampered with the evidence beside that his injuries on the back of his head does not even look like it was caused by TM so called slamming his head against the concrete as he was holding his nose and mouth mind you. These injuries looks like they could have been self inflicted but the police failed to do a blood check of GZ DNA on the gun. The way the cuts of closers to his right side of his head this could have been done by him, with the butt of his own gun. He had to make sure that he looked like he was being attack. Yes TM might have punched him in his nose when GZ tried to hold detain him, for know reason. But what do people expect not to fight, TM was suppose to just let this man do anything he wanted to him without fighting back. No body is going to just let GZ come up on them for know reason, at night in the dark. Of course TM was going to fight back I would to. He would probably have broken nuts along with that broken nose, and I am a woman, so you know I am going for the ”nuts” sorry for my French.

  93. jun says:

    Thanks Freddy

    I asked this in open discussion and now I am 100 in understanding

    Could the medical diagnosis that Z got also be rebutted by his refusal for service and his obvious apparent of not being attacked? Doesnt it also break a chain of custody for Z to go the next day? It was obvious by Z’s hi def fotos he aint hurt.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      The medical diagnosis pretty much sums up how minor GZ’s injuries were. As does the EMT report. If anything, both of those, combined with his repeated refusals to be taken to the ER that night, as well as his observed behavior(on scene and at the station), actions, speech etc – could be used to show that he did not suffer as brutal an attack as claimed.

      I’ll have to read the EMTs’ statements again but if I remember correctly GZ never told any of them that he had his head bashed against the ground repeatedly. If he wasn’t going to tell his story to the medical pros that very night, why should it be given any credence. The only talk about him going to the hospital was in regards to the stitches, not as a precaution because he had taken serious trauma to the head supposedly.

      • MichelleO says:

        I HAVE seen photos of Rhianna’s face in which she was much more severely battered than anything Georgy has made up. His little cuts and boo-boo’s do not rise to the definition of head trauma by asphalt. I would not look at him and think “This poor man! He’s near death from a getting his head bashed in.” No, I would think that he was involved in a slip and fall.

      • bettykath says:

        One of the officers, T. Smith I believe, observed GZ from the time he took him to the station until the investigators started questioning him. Smith asked GZ more than once if he wanted to go to the ER and was told no. He also specifically looked for signs of concussion while GZ was in the interview room, 2-way glass? or window. When GZ was alone with D. Singleton he said something about the cost of going to the ER. That led them into the discussion about medical insurance.

      • Xena says:

        Apparently, the physician’s assistant who treated GZ on 2/27 did not believe that his boo-boos required bandages. She wrote to keep them washed with soap and water. When GZ appeared for the re-enactment later that same day, ShelLIE had placed bandages for fingers on his head and between his eyes. There is a reason for why she used those big-arse bandaids — maybe wanting GZ to appear seriously damaged.

        Singleton even mentioned after the re-enactment that she thought one wound was located elsewhere than where the bandaid was placed.

        If GZ’s head and nose boo-boos were that serious, he should have wanted the camera to memorialize them rather than hiding them with inappropriate bandages.

        • Patricia says:

          @Xena,

          The big arse bandages were used to cover up what were now the healed & fading little-arse cuts. Wouldn’t want that to show up video!

      • Xena says:

        The big arse bandages were used to cover up what were now the healed & fading little-arse cuts. Wouldn’t want that to show up video!

        Oh. 🙂 One would think that Shellie would have red lipstick to put on GZ’s head. (Why did I just think about the saying “putting lipstick on a pig?)

        • Patricia says:

          Xena, how about a Magic Marker with arrows pointing to all the contusions? Provided everbody is given magnifying glasses.

      • logi says:

        The medical report says blunt trauma by thrown object. I find it strange that no one(EMS) claims to have asked GZ how he sustained his injuries

      • Mirre says:

        Xena
        Those bandages got bigger and bigger. Check this video of his visit to the police station on the 29th.

      • Dennis says:

        It would make no sense for Zimmerman to shoot someone because he was in danger of great bodily harm or death, and at the same time refuse to get medical care for the supposed severe beating he claims to have received. It is almost a certainty that Zimmerman would have a concussion from getting beat in the manner in which he claims. The medical experts for the prosecution are going to have a field day with his bogus claims.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Here’s a little something from my collection:
          http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/2012/09/read-morea-martial-artist-looks-at.html#links

          It’s not as “on point” as I’d hoped for, but there’s still plenty of useful information about the situation covered.

          • jm says:

            You make excellent points. Do you think the prosecution and/or defense reads the blogs and takes away ideas from them and restructures their arguments accordingly?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I saw evidence of the defense and prosecution reading on the internet back in 1994 during the OJ trial, I would expect nothing less today. MOM and GZ are using the internet, I believe the SP and FBI both have people assigned to the task of reading and summarizing postings. If, for no other reason than that, since the evidence has been released, they need to know what’s been noticed.

            So far the GZ side has no evidence and therefore sticks to emotions, while TM’s side is sifting through the evidence. So, we’re probably generating the most leads. After all, that’s all they can do here is look for leads, anything found will have to be reprocessed by themselves before it can be used. They don’t have to say where their leads came from. but if they used anyone’s posts directly, then they’d have to disclose that. I don’t think they’d want to say to the jury “We got this from the internet”.

          • cielo62 says:

            By now, I would be very surprised if BOTH the prosection and defense don’t have interns scoping out this blog in particular. After all, “People of the Leather” are well known in the blogosphere. 🙂

          • Patricia says:

            @jm –

            There are thousands and thousands of new law school graduates without work – happy to be low paid interns to do the grunt work of monitoring the major blogs and isolating analysis that could be helpful to either side.

            Neither side is missing a trick.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            …And don’t forget volunteers. Besides a really good find could lead to paid employment. Not to mention how good this will look on a resume, and help explain time spent between jobs. Prospective employers don’t like to see blank time on the resume, so volunteer work can be a big help in eliminating it.

    • Tzar says:

      great point

      • thejbmission says:

        Hi Xena,
        Those big arse bandaids always get you going. I LOL every time the topic comes up because I know it’ll get a rise out of Xena.

        Speaking of GZ’s booboos — the first thing that comes to my mind are hematomas. Wouldn’t GZ have a big fat hickey on the back of his head after being beaten on the concrete?
        And wasn’t that pathetic that all Shellie had in her medicine cabinet was finger bandaids? Geesh.. I mean, why not a butterfly? But we’ve all heard — George is thrifty.

    • jm says:

      From what I can see the head lacerations don’t match getting his head pounded into the ground till he feared for his life. In any case, if this were true and it happened to me, the first thing I would want to do is rule out internal injuries with the technology only available in a hospital setting. For GZ to refuse diagnostic tests tells me he is beyond sure his injuries were just as they seemed, not a problem. Maybe by refusing hospital treatment, GZ felt he would have the benefit of the doubt that his injuries were life-threatening. This is more of a dimwit like George trying to outwit people who are smarter than he is, just as he did when hiding his Paypal money, talking in code, and hoping the prosecution would not notice.

      I do wonder if Zimmerman family ever called him out on his lies/ stupidity – or maybe they didn’t notice.

      • Patricia says:

        @jm, perhaps GZ’s self-defense goes as follows:

        “I was a reasonable person, reasonably in fear for my life – until I had the opportunity for medical/hospital diagnosis of my “injuries.” Then, as a reasonable person, reasonably in fear of conviction for murder, I refused.”

        Hmmm … can George plead “temporary reasonableness” and get away with it?

        • jm says:

          “Hmmm … can George plead “temporary reasonableness” and get away with it?”

          Speaking of temporary, I wonder if MOM has approached GZ with a possibility of temporary insanity plea. If MOM is of sound mind, he has to know GZ is a sociopath. You simply can’t watch the Hannity interview and not know Zimmerman is mentally unbalanced.

          • Patricia says:

            @jm – GZ may be self-centered, vicious and narcissistic but within seconds after shooting TM he was claiming it was “self defense” to protect himself from conviction for murder.

            Proves he knew right from wrong all along.

            GZ loses chance to plead temporary insanity. Temporary viciousness and temporary stupidity do not excuse murder.

            In fact, it can reasonably be argued GZ killed Trayvon because Trayvon was a witness to GZ’s immediate crime of stalking and assaulting a juvenile. That would make it Murder 1.

      • rachael says:

        @Patricia:

        “I was a reasonable person, reasonably in fear for my life – until I had the opportunity for medical/hospital diagnosis of my “injuries.” Then, as a reasonable person, reasonably in fear of
        conviction for murder, I refused.”

        Wiping the coffee off my screen now.

      • MichelleO says:

        The Zimmerman’s and everyone they surround themselves with seem to be pompous idiots. They are the most smug group of people I have ever seen. You can tell that they think very highly of themselves, and don’t even hide the sneer behind their thinking.

      • MichelleO says:

        JM, his family was not in close contact with him for several years. His past antics are probably why. He doesn’t seem to be able to control himself, and probably cutting off the electricity to his parents house, and then taking the key with him was the last straw for them. His brother is an attorney, I believe. So, the brains in that family passed Georgy over. I cannot wait until they uncover his high school records. He was probably killing small animals, torturing school mates and such. I don’t believe he developed his stupidity during adulthood: it was always there.

        • jm says:

          “His family was not in close contact with him for several years. His past antics are probably why”

          That is why I cannot understand why Robert Jr is doing the PR tour for him now and previously his father was lying for him or at best accepting his son’s story of what happened.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        to jm:
        to revel in the excitement of television interviews, surrounded by off-camera hair, make-up, direction, numerous assistants running around, the camera-men, lighting… it must feel like being a minor deity. Esp. if strangers send money.

    • His refusal to seek medical treatment that night together with his trip to the family clinic the next day to get an approval to return to work, and his refusal to follow-up as recommended by the PA with a visit to an ENT specialist, are facts that may be considered together with other facts regarding whether he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury when he used deadly force to defend himself.

      He not only must have believed that he was, his belief must have been reasonable.

      I do not believe the evidence supports his claim that he believed he was in imminent danger of death or serious injury and, even if he did, I do not believe the evidence supports a conclusion that his belief was reasonable.

      I italicized “together with other facts” because he provoked a confrontation by following Martin in a vehicle and then on foot without identifying himself. Pursuant to Mixon v. State, which I have cited previously, such conduct is sufficient to establish that the person is the aggressor.

      The test is not who landed the first punch, as so many Zimbots contend.

      BTW, chain of custody refers to property seized, not people.

      • MichelleO says:

        PROFESSOR, I don’t know if you have done so before—but could you please put up a post devoted solely to traumatic head injuries, and what happens when a person’s head, is banged repeatedly several times as Georgy is claiming? Can you put up photos accompanying this research? What happens to a person’s head, brain, and physical self when they TRULY suffer such a traumatic head injury. Are they in excellent form afterward, needing no assistance, and popping out of the back of police cars great energy and no support?

      • JUN says:

        Freddy

        I guess what I mean, is, since there were so many hours and time passed before Z went to the doctor, Z could have very well tampered with the evidence (himself), to try and seem more injured

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Also during his re-enactment he looks and jesters towards the backs of homes to convince that the sole reason that he walked “in the same direction as him” was that there were no street numbers visible. However, he walked in the direction (to his right) where clearly there were homes with numbers on them. So why not stay in your car and view the house numbers from there?

        I just can not believe that George thinks that he was smart enough to pull off this murder and get away with it. But then again, he did come pretty close if not for Trayvon’s parents. This family know their kid. I have no doubt that had he been a troublemaker, there would have been no push for justice. One would have assumed that he was out in the street doing crime again and he it finally caught up to him. But in this case, nothing made since to his family.

        Based on that 1st photo of George on the scene that night before the EMT arrived, can they be charged with perjury for lying about George being 45% covered in blood? What do you think will come of that provided George is found guilty?

  94. Xena says:

    Unfortunately for Zimmerman, his claim of self-defense was neither relevant nor necessary for medical diagnosis or treatment. Therefore, those statements are not admissible under this exception to the hearsay rule.

    Professor, MOM has stated that he is pursuing traditional self-defense because GZ was pinned and unable to remove himself. At which point can the prosecution present testimony and evidence that when he shot and killed Trayvon, GZ was physically free from the waist up, with both arms and hands free?

    • jun says:

      I would say forensics prove it

      and the fact is Zimmerman was the danger to others, not the other way around

      Say someone chases you with a gun… You do a kung fu takedown and pin the guy on the ground and ask for help…obviously the guy pinned on the ground is the assailant

      I think anyways

    • I don’t know what they will decide to do, but I would introduce his statements during the case in chief about controlling Martin with a wristlock and extending his right hand beyond his left hand to avoid shooting it, aiming the gun, and pulling the trigger.

      That’s damning evidence the defense has to explain to have any realistic chance to win. That forces Zimmerman to take the stand. Then comes the deluge of inconsistent and conflicting statements on cross.

      • Patricia says:

        Professor, I love the narrowing of the description to the wristlock, the avoidance of shooting his other hand, the shooting.

        Please add “aim.”

        This keeps it nice and simple and logical in the jurors’ minds.

        Once that is anchored, GZ’s 976 other “versions” will bounce off their brains.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I agree, the word “aim” takes away the impression of a shot taken “in the throes of desperation during a life and death struggle”, where all one can do is “shoot and hope”.

      • Patricia says:

        I apologize. You fully describe aiming. Me culpa!

      • Patricia says:

        Sorry, professor, did not catch “aiming.” My error.

        Me culpa, me maxima culpa.

        (This is a repeat apology – the prior one did not pop up.)

      • MichelleO says:

        “The vast majority of Zimmerman’s statements to police and others before trial are inadmissible hearsay, if offered by the defense to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.”

        HOW can this be true, Professor? When they read a suspect his or her Miranda Rights, they are told that anything they say may be held against them. Often what people say to police, in police reports and in jail cells to “snitches” is used as evidence in a trial.

      • bettykath says:

        Let’s see if I understand. GZ’s statements cannot be entered by the defense but they can be entered by the prosecution and the prosecution can pick and choose which statements to use as long as they don’t distort them by selective editing. Editing is ok as long as it doesn’t distort the meaning of what they use.

      • JUN says:

        Michelle O

        The statements can be used against Zimmerman, however, Z’s statements cant be presented by a party other then the declarative party to prove the truth of the facts asserted and forego scrutiny for credibility of the testimony of an oath and cross examination

        The prosecution does not really need to use Z’s statements at all to prove murder 2. However they have them in their back pocket to use against Zimmerman. There may be some rules I do not know about where the prosecution can introduce certain statements but I do not know but its not even really needed. For example when he told that guy to call his wife to tell her he shot somebody is an excited utterance and a present sense impression statement I believe.

      • Justice4TBM says:

        I’ve got to say, this is a great point I never considered. Seriously, the guy is admitting to having enough control of the situation and Trayvon,, that he could specifically maneuver things to avoid shooting his own hand?

        If you have to shoot someone, you just pull your gun and do your best to aim. … but being able to physically position someone so as to “stage” the shot….

        That pretty much shows right there that he chose to shoot INSTEAD of using those maneuvers to “exhaust every reasonable means to escape”.

    • Dennis says:

      O’Mara is basically admitting that Zimmerman was the aggressor, but is still maintaining that Martin beat his face in to the point that he had to shoot him. He knows DeeDee’s testimony and the other evidence will establish Zimmerman as the aggressor, so he is preparing for a traditional self-defense claim.

      • Patricia says:

        @Dennis,

        I expect O’Mara does not consider it strategic to make the judge start laughing at his client, so he doesn’t dare claim his tough pistol-packin’ Neighborhood Watch Captain at 207 lbs got his head beat repeatedly on the concrete walk [AND LOOK AT ALL THOSE MASSIVE INJURIES!] by a shy, skinny 17-year old kid, and CAPTAIN GEORGE never moved a finger to protect his head – as you can see in the Sanford PD photos of GZ’s hands taken later that night. And the lack of Zimmerman’s blood and DNA on Trayvon’s hands or sleeves.

        So he’s going for something gutsier: the nosebleed.

        Ah, yes, Dennis – and how many people die annually from nosebleeds?

        Ah yes … I thought so.

        Is there some part of the Self-Defense Plea that says you “were in fear of your dry cleaning bills”? That might work …

      • @ Patricia…..The nosebleed…..GZ claims that TM had his hand over GZ’s mouth. If you put a hand over someone’s mouth, the edge of your hand is going to touch the person’s nose. And if GZ’s nose was bleeding, why wasn’t there any blood on TM’s hand? GZ…teller of tall tales.

        • Patricia says:

          @grey

          IF Trayvon tried to “smother” Zimmerman by putting his hands over Zimmerman’s nose & mouth, and Zimmerman had that nosebleed, how is it that there’s no evidence of Zimmerman’s blood on Trayvon’s hands?

          Easy – take your pick:

          (1) Zimmerman is a slug. FDLE has not yet done the forensic analysis for slug juice on Trayvon’s hands. Look for the next document dump.

          (2) Zimmerman lies.

          (There is a school of thought that says there should be a third choice, “Zimmerman is a lying slug” but I really think that’s a tad judgmental, n’est-ce pas?)

          Note that when GZ re-enacted the killing for the SPD video 2/28 he ONCE AGAIN “mis-spoke” by describing the smothering hands going on Trayvon’s face, then corrected himself.

          Many of us feel that Zimmerman did try to stop Trayvon from crying out for help, as there were homes nearby and it was early in the evening.

          But because he needed two hands to wrangle with Trayvon on the ground, and then to hold both the shirts in his left hand (the dominant one he used for grabbing) and the gun in his right hand (his shooting hand), he could no longer smother Trayvon’s screams.

          The tragedy we all heard.

  95. BigBoi says:

    Best blog post to date Professor! Can’t wait until we hear those 3 little words – GUILTY AS CHARGED!

  96. LLMPapa says:

    Thank You Professor.

    Link

  97. jm says:

    I pray you are correct Professor.

    • racerrodig says:

      Your prayer has been answered. The Professor is correct. This is why Z is in serious trouble. His minions think he can just sit there like a “potted palm” take the 5th and skate away. Moron O’ Mara can’t use Z’s (all 7) versions of alleged SD and say “There you have it ladies & gentlemen…..my client was acting in self defense”

      If they take the posture that the state failed to prove it’s case, and Z does not testify, the state’s case is refuted.

      • MichelleO says:

        YES. They seem to be saying that it is alright for a strange man who is armed, to go after a kid who he believes to be unarmed, and then to stalk, terrorize, and execute him.

      • Tzar says:

        @MichelleO
        grotesque is it not?

      • JUN says:

        Leading someone down the primrose path while being a potted palm bears no leadership in any direction thus a future prediction of utter failure

        LOL But Omara is pretty stupid. He had a judge voted the best in the county, one of the top judges in Florida, grant him bond twice, did not show any bias, and he gets him kicked off on hearsay and he gets a lady thats known as a pitbull, who got a rapist so angry he flipped out in court (Good one Omara)

        The funny thing is Zimrons think and feel that every other witnesses’ testimony deserves scrutiny and an oath to validate credibility but Zimmerman the Zimmdusky is somehow allowed to bypass that. We all know how Zimmdusky hates bias, so he gets the same treatment as everyone else LOL Zimmerman’s statements are hearsay until it gets sworn under oath and faces scrutiny of cross examination

    • TearsForTrayvon says:

      The Professor is obviously an expert on a variety of things especially law, seeing as he is a retired professor of law. I have yet to see him confidently predict something and be wrong. We have nothing to worry about.

  98. Two sides to a story says:

    Professor, some rules of legal hearings seem unnecessarily restrictive. Are there any rules you would change?

    • I think the rules of evidence should be restrictive. I haven’t given a lot of thought to changing them, but I would tighten up Rule 702 on who can testify as an expert witness. I believe it’s too easy for people to qualify as experts.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thank you. I admit I’m a little intimidated by law and don’t always understand why things happen the way they do in court hearings. Sometimes it seems to me like good info is shut out or bad info is sustained. But I’m learning.

        It does seem like both sides always have experts with opposing views, which seems unrealistic. There must be times in which evidence is what it is and can’t be explained away.

  99. Two sides to a story says:

    Om mani padme hung hri. I suppose GZ may just have to alter his opinion of God’s Plan.

  100. Patricia says:

    Professor, in the self-defense hearing, who gets to say what?

    • Defense goes first with the burden of proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

      Rules of evidence are the same as at trial.

      • Patricia says:

        If MO’M can’t use GZ’s statements, what can he use for “self defense” – unless GZ testifies?

      • Justice4TBM says:

        I know you’ve likely already discussed this, but for clarification, presuming he’s denied immunity, at the general trial — if he’s still claiming self-defense, does the defense have the burden of proof to show that the “mitigating circumstances” (Trayvon assaulted him)?

        I know the prosecution will have to prove 2nd degree murder, but do they have the burden to prove Zimmerman’s DIDN’T act in self-defense?

        For instance, IMO, there’s no evidence that Trayvon was responsible for whatever injuries Zimmerman had. Zimmerman could’ve JUST AS LIKELY ran face first into the tree in the dark and inured his nose that way,

        So, is it just “presumed” because there’s evidence of some kind of a struggle, that Trayvon was responsible for those injuries… or if it has to be proven, who has that burden?

        • At the immunity hearing, the defense goes first and has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

          If the defense satisfies that burden, the judge will dismiss the case and enter an order granting Zimmerman immunity from prosecution and civil liability for killing TM.

          If the defense fails to satisfy that burden, the case will proceed to trial.

          At the trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder in the second degree and did not act in self-defense.

          If the prosecution fails, the jury will find Zimmerman not guilty and the case will be dismissed.

          If the prosecution satisfies its burden, the case will proceed to sentencing.

          The maximum penalty is life in prison and the mandatory minimum is 25 years.

          To the extent that there is any mitigating evidence, the Court will consider it in deciding what penalty to impose.

          A plea bargain resolving the case is possible up until the verdict is read in open court. A plea bargain would require the agreement of both parties and the Court’s approval.

          I do not believe a plea bargain is very likely because I do not believe Zimmerman is willing to plead guilty as charged and the prosecution’s case is so strong that it has no incentive to reduce the charge in exchange for a guilty plea.

      • bettykath says:

        So at the immunity hearing, GZ still has to testify and the prosecution gets to cross?

      • Xena says:

        Professor, Florida jury instructions allow for the jury to find guilt for a lessor offense. In your opinion, do you think the prosecution will ask for a finding of manslaughter if not 2nd degree murder?

        Also, remember the case of Marissa Alexander charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon? She claimed SYG, was denied immunity, and subsequently found guilty and sentenced to 20 years. No one was hurt in that case.

        Since GZ alleges that he did not know whether he actually shot Trayvon, and rather than concern himself with where the bullet went, jumped on Trayvon’s back, do you think that the State can also seek a lesser charge of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon?

      • JUN says:

        10-20-life laws…

        Zimmerman can claim he didnt intentionally mean to shoot Trayvon, but according to the statutes, if you hit or kill anyone with a bullet, its minimum 25 to life.

        and Zimmerman cant really argue that, especially, by his own admissions

        “Z overpowered Trayvon, and controlled Trayvon with a wristlock, then aimed and made sure to not hit his left hand, and shot”

Leave a reply to Xena Cancel reply