Open Thread Wednesday

I have to run some errands this afternoon and probably will not have time to write a new post today.

The pool is open.

No running on the deck.

Hasta Luego,

Federico

131 Responses to Open Thread Wednesday

  1. Nellie Nell says:

    Does George not have control of the situation when he says, “He sat up and said ‘You got me’ as if to give up”? If Trayvon gave up with enough time to declare defeat, why shoot him? Does he not admit that he could have held the kid at gunpoint until police arrived from that point forward?

    • jm says:

      “Does George not have control of the situation when he says, “He sat up and said ‘You got me’ as if to give up”?”

      It is my understanding that miraculously, after being shot in the heart, Trayvon managed to sit up long enough to concede victory to GZ.

      • Patricia says:

        @jm –

        Correct, JM: Zimmerman claims all this stuff happened AFTER THE SHOT.

        I am surprised Zimmerman did not add, “And the suspect asked for pen and paper so he could write and sign a confession, for which I, George Zimmerman, will receive a hero medal.”

        Zimmerman is vile. JUST VILE.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Yet, he jumped on his back and needed help restraining him….. Hmmmmmmmmm

    • Patricia says:

      @Nellie –

      Nellie, “You got me” (as if to give up) is more fantasy bullshit from Zimmerman – that he, finally, accomplished “command” over Trayvon.

      This happened AFTER Zimmerman drilled Trayvon through the heart, except it never happened. The drilling did, but fictitious capitulation did not.

      This shows you how pitiful AND sadistic Zimmerman is: he has to make up (LIE) Trayvon’s last words, as a self-serving embellishment to Zimmerman’s “prowess” as a crimefighter.

      Zimmerman had control of Trayvon BEFORE he shot him. And then he went ahead and shot him.

      He killed the best State’s witness against Zimmerman and his crimes. On purpose, to serve Zimmerman’s needs.

      Zimmerman will never admit that he could have held Trayvon at gunpoint until police arrived.

      But the prosecution will point that out, will point that out, will point that TRUTH out …

  2. Operacarla says:

    Dear Professor,

    Thank you for providing your expertise on this site! Something is bothering me about the Trayvon Martin case…in the Hannity interview at about the 16:15 minute George states that Investigators told him that Trayvon at this point knew that George was in contact with the police(?!)

    http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0S00Mm4GmtQBkEAREr7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=youtube+george+zimmerman+hannity&vid=3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D4692999826833424%26id%3De5e669756d18170b9bbc8b57236b5409%26bid%3DXwGA9Q2sT%252bCiOw%26bn%3DLargeThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dD9sQsk0rdRA&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD9sQsk0rdRA&tit=George+Zimmerman+Hannity+Interview+Full&c=5&sigr=11aigve24&&tt=b

    In Mark Osterman’s book Mark writes: “ that Zimmerman was told a Florida Department of Law Enforcement comparison confirmed, “by a 90 to 95% match,” the voice — captured on a 911 call during the altercation — was Zimmerman’s”
    Are these imaginary Police officers in George’s delusional mind or a part of something larger?
    Thanks again for all of your information.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      You could tell from the start that he would do nothing but lie. He opened up the 1st answer to the reflecting question with a lie.

      Hannity: A lot of time has passed since this incident with Trayvon. How do feel about it now that you’ve had time to reflect on it?

      George: (huff, shrugs, rolls eyes up) I haven’t really had time to reflect on it. When I was in jail obviously I was in solitary confinement and I had a lot of time to think and reflect….. Umm, I think it’s just a tragic situation…..

      George appear to have no control over what comes out of his mouth and has to be the dumbest person walking around looking normal! No surprise that he heard the investigators tell him that Trayvon knew he’d called the police. He is delusional and extremely irrational with his thinking.

      I wish he’d just go away! Now he wants to sue NBC to help pay for his new iPhone, elaborate lifestyle and maybe his defense. He will need experts to testify on his behalf, they will not work for free as this will come at a high cost. He will also need plenty of root beer barrels as he does his 25 year sentence. And oh, he will also need to pay for protection so that no other convicts run up in his tush every night for that 25 years!

      Does he really have a case against NBC?

  3. Malisha says:

    Of course, considering that in the Old South a Black person counted as 3/5 of a person, maybe old Osterman just can’t do the math, and he think the many many many fictional Black friends George allegedly “had” equal “very few.” ??

  4. Malisha says:

    Notice that Osterman said two things at different times: first, in his written statement to police, he said George had very few friends. Then on Dr. Phil, he said George had hordes of Black friends — whom he loved dearly and they loved HIM dearly [all past tense] — and just kept Osterman around as his “token white.”

  5. Xena says:

    I couldn’t listen to all of Junior’s radio interview. What I heard made me sick. He had a mantra; “George is not a racist. George is not a racist. George is not a racist.” My goodness!! He still killed a 17 yr old 11th grader who ran from George!!

    Do the Zimmerman’s have any decency? GZ believes he had the right to take human life and also to take other people’s money — and when questioned about both, lies.

    • jm says:

      I listened to the whole interview, a little at a time. No the Zimmerman’s have no decency and if Junior truly believes what he is saying, he has no logic or intelligence. Junior is out for more “defense” money and possibly 15 minutes of fame. It is obvious he is pretty full of himself. I find him repulsive.

  6. Frederick Leatherman, thank you for your thoughtful posts. I am currently an American teaching university students in Saudi Arabia and eagerly await your newest analysis of the case to appear in my inbox.

    That being said, I recently saw an article at http://www.orlandosentinel.com/classified/realestate/blog/os-what-the-trayvon-martin-case-can-teach-associations-20120927,0,771231.story where it discussed Trayvon Martin’s parents suing the Home Owners Association in the neighborhood where Zimmerman was a Watchman (self-appointed or appointed).

    What are your thoughts about this lawsuit? Do you think it is a real possibility? What is the likelihood of there being a ruling in their favor if the case were to proceed? Do you think it would be more effective for them to sue the Sanford Police Department for their handling of the case early on during the crucial hours afterwards? If a civil lawsuit of any kind were to take place, what do you think the charge or claim of Trayvon’s parents would be?

  7. Katherine Leonard says:

    I have always wondered about “George shot somebody else” according to Shellie Zimmerman to Mark Osterman on 2/26/12.

  8. MichelleO says:

    DID anyone check out Georgy admitting that he knew Trayvon was not armed during his interview with Serino? Serino asks him and Georgy verifies that he did not think that Trayvon was armed. Since Georgy was the one armed, what did he have to be in fear of? He knew that he alone had a lethal weapon. A weapon which he could have used to hold the person at bay until the police arrived. I think that his actions are one of a serial killer. As he was seen sitting on the victims back (like a bear guarding his prey), and going back and forth to the body—touching it over and over again—-how much does anybody want to bet that he kept some sort of souvenir (a trophy) from the dead body to savior his kill?

    • Malisha says:

      How do I find out what the phrase “George shot somebody else” meant? [Shellie to Osterman, 2/26/2012, as per Osterman]

      How do I find out about the previous [to 2/26/2012] shooting at RTL, reported in March 2012 according to major news sources, apparently attributed to police reports?

      Was it George? Osterman? Taaffe? Other? False? Accidental?

      • That threw me… Ya “George shot somebody else”

      • PYorck says:

        How do I find out what the phrase “George shot somebody else” meant?

        I think without major new revelations that will be very difficult. I see three major possible interpretations of “somebody else”:

        Somebody other than himself
        It was just phrased awkwardly and doesn’t really mean anything. I think this is most likely.

        Another victim
        GZ really has shot someone before. Shellie or Osterman knew about it and let it slip. Of course that is highly speculative and I think it is a lot less likely.

        Somebody other than expected
        There was some reason to expect GZ to shoot someone, but it was not Trayvon. Perhaps they knew about GZ’s burglar hunting and the phrase means that Trayvon was not the who GZ expected.

        Of course it would also make a difference if the exact phrasing is Shellie’s or Osterman’s.

      • Xena says:

        @PYorck. I vote for option number 2. For option 3, GZ knew nothing about Trayvon until 2 days later when Serino told him.

        We know about GZ’s arrest record as an adult — not whether he has a juvenile arrest record. GZ’s tattoo is recognized by the State of Virginia as a gang tattoo.

        http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/OEMS/Files_page/symposium/2010Presentations/LMGT-732.pdf

        According to his “bio,” GZ’s parents purchased a house in Florida and sent GZ to live there at the age of 18 while they remained in Virginia. So here is an unemployed 18 yr old who picks up from his home State and is sent to live in Florida without and away from his family — for what reason?

        • cielo62 says:

          Maybe once he was outed as a sexual predator. You know; out of sight, out of mind. One more case of protecting him from the consequences of his evil. Maybe his gang tattoo was from there? An anti-Mexican one!

      • Interesting. That definitely needs looking into.

    • Patricia says:

      Michelle, re Zimmerman sitting on Trayvon’s body, touching his back, I have always believed he was checking to find an exit wound in Trayvon’s body and the hoodie.

      If the hollow-point had not exploded inside Trayvon’s chest, as expected, but had exited the body and embedded itsef in the ground under Trayvon, it would have proved Zimmerman shot Trayvon on the ground. Zimmerman shot him at close range, so that fear would exist in his mind.

      As it happened, the bullet performed as advertised.

      Searching for an exit wound was not idle curiosity on Zimmerman’s part.

      He was busy forming his alibi.

      Tough to say “It was self defense” when you’ve got your victim pinned to the ground and you drill him through the chest. A projectile that continued through the body and embedded itself in the earth would have kissed off that idea.

      Zimmerman also frisked Trayvon for weapons (as shown by the bloodstains), hoping to justify the killing because Trayvon (as a “thug”) was threatening him with his gun Since Zimmerman himself wore a holster on his “right back hip” (his words, patting himself above his ass) he would be checking the same location on Trayvon for a holster and weapon. He found none,

    • Did he take a ring off Trayvons finger where the scratch was identified. Maybe that is why he did not want police at his house. They never did do a search of his home, did they. Maybe other items obtained through illegal means were contained within.

  9. Malisha says:

    I don’t think we need to figure out how George got injured, on his head. (On his nose, even less/more so because that little nick on his nose looks to me, even in the picture taken at the SPD that night, like it was a pre-existing little scratch. Maybe Shellie scratched him on his cute little nosey-wosey.)

    All we need to know about the injuries on the back of his head is:

    1 – as Serino said, “capillary type lacerations” — meaning, NOT SERIOUS; and

    2 – as Serino said, “not coincident [sic] with someone being beaten the way you describe” — meaning NOT TRUE.

  10. The materials used by the EMTs to clean GZ up were bagged. Does anyone know if the gauze, swabs, etc. were tested. Could it be the blood covering 45% of GZs face be Trayvon Martins used by GZ to exaggerate the bleeding of his injuries. I still believe the injuries were inflicted before the shooting incident. A first aid kit was found and a pair of tweezers sitting atop the kit were photographed. I think a pair of tweezers would be able to inflict both of the so-called lacerations on the back of his head. I think the rounded area bruising was caused by Trayvon defending himself using the drink can. The nose thing was from recoil. For the blood to be dried moments after the struggle and without smears is nigh on impossible.

  11. Xena says:

    Does anyone here share on Crime Watcher’s forum? After not receiving any alerts today, I went there and it says that topics have been removed. Anyone else having problems or know what happened?

  12. Xena says:

    Here’s GZ’s explanation. On a black night, a black gun in a black holster can only be seen by black youth as they turn on the third eye in the middle of the forehead giving them light. Rather than restraining Trayvon’s arm, GZ actually restrained his head so he could not control the light to see the gun. (You see, he originally forgot that part). This resulted in Trayvon running his hand down GZ’s body because he could not see GZ’s fat hip.

    • logi says:

      GZ stated to PD that he carries his gun everywhere but work so how did he forget he had it?

      • Patricia says:

        OMG, Logi, here’s the break-through we’ve all been waiting for in this case! Are you ready? Hold on to your hats, everybody! ………………………… George Zimmerman lied!

        Who’dathunket?

      • Xena says:

        @Logi. Patricia is right — GZ lies. However, you have to think like GZ. (I know. It’s difficult.) He forgot HIS gun. The gun he used to take Trayvon’s life was “THE gun.”

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Ooooops, this turd just could not keep his lies in line! Did not think of that on either! Gosh, he is a terrible liar!

        • Patricia says:

          @ Nellie –

          Re “Gosh, he is a terrible liar!” your score is 100%.

          The only way to make sense out of Zimmerman’s statements is to consider that they are lies, and look to the OPPOSITE for an explanation. He is a “mirror image” liar.

  13. Patricia says:

    To Malisha, classmates, Professor –

    This is Open Forum, so I bring up something I have been wondering about for the past few days:

    Trayvon is a young 17, year old, talking most of the day with his young girlfriend, and when the day turns to night, danger appears, a concerned young Trayvon says this older man is “following” him, and describes him as “creepy.”

    Zimmerman later describes an immediate knock-down fight with Trayvon on top and says Trayvon slid his hand across his chest to reach Zimmerman’s gun, which Zimmerman demonstrated to the cops as being concealed in an INSIDE-the-waistband holster on his right rear hip. Up to that point, according to Zimmerman, he testified that he had forgotten he was wearing his gun,

    So I ask you, fellow classmates, what do you think the chances are of ANY scared young 17-year old teen “sliding his hand” across some “creepy” older man’s chest, with the intent of reaching around the “creepy” older man to get inside the “creepy” older man’s pants?

    This is another example of Zimmerman saying Trayvon did things that he did NOT do – and would NEVER do. Are we are supposed to believe this? Personally, I’m very disturbed by it.

    Does that whole Zimmerman scenario “creep” you out, like it “creeps” me?

    How wll the jury take it?

    • bettykath says:

      If GZ takes the stand and uses that story, the prosecution can ask the jury “You’ve heard all the inconsistencies in the defendant’s stories. You’ve heard from the defendant that Trayvon put moved his hand across the defendant’s chest and around to the back of defendant’s hip. Put yourself in the place of Trayvon. Your scared b/c of the creepy guy following you. It’s really dark and rainy. You get in an altercation with this creepy guy. Would you even think of sliding your hand across his chest to the backside of his hip?”

    • gblock says:

      Here’s another question. According to the version in the reenactment video, Trayvon is busy slamming Zimmerman’s head into the pavement. Then someone comes out of one of the townhouses and offers to call 911. Even though the witness does not attempt to physically intercede, wouldn’t a 17 year old stop fighting when he realized that he had been seen by a witness?

        • Patricia says:

          @Nellie and Gblock

          Don’t believe Zimmerman’s drivel in his “re-enactment.” Go to AXIOM AMNESIA and read the two interviews by John W#6.

          He did NOT witness any head-banging by Trayvon.

          NOBODY witnessed or heard ANY head-banging.

          You can see by Zimmerman’s headshots after the shooting that ZIMMERMAN”S HEAD WAS NOT BANGED ON THE CONCRETE.

          What John W#6 saw was two guys stretched in a struggle on the grass outside his back patio. In the State interview (the second interview; first was SPD) he takes back his earlier statement thjat there was hitting. He now states he saw arms down and externded, in restraint.

          AGAIN, there are no known witnesses to ANY physical attack by Trayvon Martin. NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. Got it?

  14. Malisha says:

    Jun, I think the prosecution simply proves the following:

    1 – ill will (from the tape of the NEN call, from the written statement to the police calling trayvon a “suspect,” from the words “F*cking punks” and “a55holes” and from “he looks like he’s up to no good.”

    2 – shooting Trayvon Martin to death and

    3 – failing to call 911 after shooting a kid.

    THEN, in comes the defense with THEIR attempt to prove self-defense; it’s “an affirmative defense.” So the DEFENSE puts in this theory of Trayvon assaulting George, and that opens the door for the prosecution to show that the ONLY witness to that version of events, George, has NO credibility, and in order to attack his credibility, all the prior inconsistent out of court statements can be introduced. So they go in NOT on the prosecution’s case, but on the prosectuion’s rebuttal of the defense case.

    O’Mara’s in a tight spot. Nobody has to PRESUME self-defense. O’Mara has to put the self-defense theory on the table and that gives the prosecution a chance to chew it up and spit it out.

    • JUN says:

      I think I got it.

      So Omara has to mention it, but, its based on Zimmerman’s statements, which are hearsay, so he cant introduce them without placing Zimmerman on the stand for cross and under oath.

      However, Omara can try and argue Self Defense, but he cant use any of Zimmerman’s statements to prove the truth of the matter….

      Or the prosecution can simply go over all the facts of the case without even bringing up self defense at all or his statements for the conviction

      am I correct?

  15. JUN says:

    I was curious

    since Zimmerman’s statements are hearsay… how would the defense try and introduce them?

    How would the prosecution introduce the parts where Zimmerman admits overpowering Trayvon and having him under control, then shooting?

    • Xena says:

      I’m watching the John Goodman case in Florida on TruTv. It’s a DUI manslaughter case with failure to provide aid. This morning, the State called a witness, a bartender. That bartender had been deposed for a civil lawsuit against Goodman. The questioning dealt with how she poured drinks.

      The defense used the deposition from the civil case to question the bartender. The defense tried making the State suspect for pressuring the witness to say what they wanted. The State then conducted re-direct and introduced the bartender’s statement to them.

      Here, since Osterman has written a book of “GZ speaks,” Osterman can be questioned and held to what he wrote. That opens the door for O’Mara to use GZ’s recorded and written statements in effort to challenge Osterman’s testimony. It will be a beautiful day at sea.

      • Dennis says:

        I would just love for the prosecution to have proof that Osterman is lying about anything. That way they can expose him to a perjury charge if he decides to lie under oath. I’m fairly confident that Zimmerman’s family and his friend Osterman will still believe he is innocent, even if Zimmerman is convicted. Some people just can’t handle the truth.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      zimmerman’s statements to police are only hearsay for the defense, in order for them to not be hearsay, gz would have to take the stand.

      the prosecution on the other hand is free to enter gz’s statements – his written statement in his own hand, video recreations, or comments made to officers can be admitted by calling say det. singleton to the stand and questioning her on what gz told her and that would not be hearsay.

      interviews such as the one on hannity can be introduced as evidence by the prosecution by calling say and audio tech from the studio to authenticate the video.

      the professor can correct me if i’ve erred in my understanding.

  16. cielo62 says:

    Giggling. Oops! I mean following. 🙂

  17. Pack your bags “Georgie Boy” its time to go to jail…

  18. Brown says:

    **SPLASH***
    follow

  19. Fed-up taxpayer says:

    I’m bothered by the concealed carry permit. GZ seems to have obtained it a bit more than 3 years after completing his court-ordered diversion program (The permit cannot be issued less than 3 years of a such a program). He was not carrying the permit with him, and didn’t have his driver’s license or wallet, either.

    The first caveat on Florida’s concealed-carry permit site is:

    “You must remember that a license to carry a weapon or firearm concealed on your person does not authorize you to use that weapon. ”

    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/about.html

    Why is there no enforcement regarding firearms? Why did a man with multiple violent events on his legal record receive a CCP?

    Why doesn’t the State protect its citizenry?

    • Malisha says:

      Woah — wait a minute. He did not have his wallet or his driver’s license on him?

      Now I believe Osterman called him, identified a “mark,” and he hopped on his trusty horse to ride out with the posse and take care of business. I think Corey undercharged him.

      • PYorck says:

        That’s one of the reasons why it is such a shame that they did not secure the truck.

      • rachael says:

        Why would he go to the store with no wallet?

      • Dave says:

        I’m not sure about the wallet thing either. I suspect that some people are assuming that GZ wasn’t carrying a wallet because it wasn’t taken as evidence. I think it’s more likely that the cops just didn’t think it was evidence and let him hold on to it. I could be wrong though.

      • Xena says:

        Right Malisha. He went shopping for groceries for the week without wallet and only 40 cents in his pocket. That must have been some sale at Target.

      • Xena says:

        Why would he go to the store with no wallet?

        Because he only had 40 cents. 🙂

        In the alternative, he ran out of the house so fast that he left his gun and wallet behind, only realizing that he had his gun when his jacket came up above his waistline, and probably only remembering he left his wallet when feeling money in Trayvon’s pants but not having time to remove it without being seen.

      • Dave says:

        The change was in GZ’s jacket pocket and was listed in evidence under the same number as the jacket and whatever else was in the jacket pockets. A wallet was not entered into evidence nor were GZ’s contact lenses or underwear.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        Dave,
        Kill a guy in Florida, and if you claim SYG they don’t bother to check your CCP or your background,and they just hand you your wallet on the way out the door? Not exactly a tourist draw!

    • jm says:

      For real, evidence-wise George Zimmerman was on his way to Target to shop for groceries with no credit card and no cash?

      • cielo62 says:

        They might have been in the truck that was moved. I always leave my wallet in my car glove box.

      • bettykath says:

        Leaving your money in your car is not the smartest thing to do. My sister used to do that and “lost” it. Too many people know how to break in and how to open a locked glove box.

        • cielo62 says:

          True but I have an attached garage. They’d have to break into the garage first. Of course, wallet is with me during my errands. Just saying that maybe GZ had his wallet in his car so not on him when cops arrested him. Personally I doubt it but we don’t have evidence to the contrary and as the good professor says, go with the evidence.

    • aussie says:

      This is getting right back to basics, people. In one interview by FDLE with Singleton, she says she SAW HIS CCW license which was IN HIS WALLET. She didn’t say but we can assume his driving licence ,cash and/or credit cards would have been there too.

      All that happened is they gave it back to him to take home at the end of the night.

    • Dennis says:

      I think it is because his felony for assaulting the BATF agent was dropped to a lower charge. Zimmerman’s “daddy” has some legal connections, or so I have heard.

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        The felony charge was dropped in exchange for pre-trial diversion program: whether anger management program, community service, or something else I don’t know, but if you just wait 3 years after completing the program, you can get a CCP as if nothing ever happened. And that is what he did.

        Florida law allows for that without any strings or connections to pull.

  20. Malisha says:

    Hannity’s question was a tribute to unclarity, mediocre (at best) intelligence and inexpert English usage. Hannity asked:

    “Do you feel you would not be here for this interview if you didn’t have that gun?”

    OK, let’s look at the question as English teachers first, before we look at it as George Zimmermans OR as Sean Hannities.

    “Do you feel you would not be here…”
    TRANSLATION: EITHER: (1) you would not be alive; or (2) you would not be needing to appear on TV for self-defense because you would not be charged with a crime; or (3) you would not be famous enough to end up being interviewed by Sean Hannity.

    Already, a mess.

    “for this interview…”
    TRANSLATION: EITHER: (1) You’d either be wounded and unable to speak because your head was bashed in so much you had brain damage; or (2) you would just have been left alone after the fight because they would have arrested the still living Trayvon and prosecuted him; or (3) you would be uninteresting and therefore I wouldn’t want to put you on TV.

    Now, neither Hannity nor Zimmerman can figure out all the permutations of these six possibilities, but it gets worse!

    “if you didn’t have that gun?”
    TRANSLATION: EITHER: (1) because you would have been killed that night, just like the thug had “assured you”; or (2) you would not have been charged with a crime because the anti-Second Amendment liberal nutcases would never have attacked you like that; or (3) you would not have become the symbol of American Freedom.

    SO what can Zimmerman say? He says, “Nossir.” But what question did muddle-head answer? Hannity, a different muddle-head, got shocked by the answer because he was actually asking a different question. Don’t ASK what question he was asking; he’s so fuzzythinkie-woozoo himself that I would have to feed his speech into a linguistic descrambler computer to cast a glimmer of comprehension onto HIS blahblahmeration in the first place.

    So he asks the same damn dumb question again and George, by now having used up all his brain-power on a two-syllable sound byte, reaches blindly for God.

    I confess I watched the interview. I wanted to reach into the screen and strangle someone but I knew that what would happen would be that I would turn into stone, cursed by the God of perpetual indecision: “Which one to strangle: O’Mara, Zimmersmudge, Hannibee, which, oh which?”

    I could have written the interview questions out for Hannity in a much better style. For example:

    “Do you feel that the only thing that saved you from death was your gun?” Yessir.

    “Do you feel that you would have lost that fight and died that night, beaten to a bloody pulp on the dog-poopy ground of a townhouse neighborhood in Florida, without even receiving the Last Rites from a Priest, if you did not have a loaded gun on you?” Yessir.

    “Do you feel that broadcast journalists should take courses in simple English expression before interviewing accused murderers on national television during prime-time?”

    WELL…ONLY IF IT’S GOD’S PLAN.

  21. I was curious about a wrist lock so went to You Tube for some demostrations.
    I ruled out the 2 handed wrist lock for obviosly reasons and saw a 1 handed wrist lock demo. .
    The one handed wrist lock has a guy standing doing the lock on a man who appears he is almost falling to the ground.
    Of course I have no way of knowing what position T & Z were in that night, but this video demo looks like that what could have happened .
    The wrist lock is very painful according to the videos I looked at.

  22. Two sides to a story says:

    Malisha, I think you’re probably right. With each retelling of his story (and GZ probably retells this a lot in his head) he probably brings his narrative to life. After all, we do create our own realities to some degree in this way.

    I suppose that GZ may have meant only to show thankfulness in his statement that he felt it was God’s plan that he survived. He didn’t seem to recognize how twisted that statement would play out to others, especially since he had no regrets about any of his actions or that he murdered an unarmed teen who was not engaged in any criminal activity. That he had no regrets completely cancels out his already flat and unappealing apology to TMs parents.

    GZ’s brother Robert’s recent appearance on Fox seems a desperate move to try to make GZ seem more like him. I appreciate that the Z family is also suffering greatly from this tragedy and that they have been demonized by the media, but trying to re-model GZ’s image is something no one can accomplish. He is what he is. I think if he were completely innocent, that would shine through his words and actions.

    • Malisha says:

      I think if Zimmerman were completely innocent it would also shine through Trayvon’s actions because he would still be alive. He could then have explained, to the cops, when they showed up, that this guy came up to him and thought he was “up to no good,” but he was only on his way home and would like an escort. They could have parted friends.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes.

      • Dennis says:

        Bingo. If Martin survived the shooting, Zimmerman would be facing 20-30 years for attempted murder. That is why Zimmerman ensured Martin’s death after the fatal shot. He knew he was the aggressor and knew that Martin could explain everything that happened, so he had to ensure Martin died on the scene. Florida has a very tough law for armed people that fire their weapon during the commission of a crime. It is called the 10-20-Life law. He would be doing 20-30 years even if Martin survived. If he is convicted of 2nd degree murder, I’m sure he will get life in prison.

    • jm says:

      “I appreciate that the Z family is also suffering greatly from this tragedy and that they have been demonized by the media,”

      Has the media demonized the Zimmerman’s or have the Zimmerman’s demonized themselves with their crass appeals for money that you have to know is directed to racists who think Zimmerman is a hero for killing a black teen?

      I think Robert Jr’s last self-serving statement/apology to the Martin’s had nothing to do with the media demonizing the family, but rather he brought to mind the Zimmerman will do whatever it takes to keep those funds flowing, including trying to make George look a victim rather than Trayvon Martin and they are in complete denial of the evidence that has George Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder.

      Robert Zimmerman Jr’s statement and insulting “apology” had nothing to do with the media. I am willing to bet he has a PR person who looks to book him on any show that will have him and bottom line, it is all about the Zimmerman family revising reality and in turn getting more money via donations for the family and GZ’s defense.

      • Xena says:

        Has the media demonized the Zimmerman’s or have the Zimmerman’s demonized themselves with their crass appeals for money that you have to know is directed to racists who think Zimmerman is a hero for killing a black teen?

        They demonized themselves, beginning with coming to the media with GZ’s story before he was charged. From Papa Zim to Junior and Joe Oliver, they were all put to shame. Taaffe was a real embarrassment.

        IMO, the Zimmermans believe they are superior to others and in particular, to Trayvon’s family.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think both aspects are going on. The Z family certainly makes themselves look bad while trying to look good.

      • logi says:

        Zimmerman Jr. was on a Los Angeles radio station today. You can hear it on itunes podcast Carroll on demand. It is #3

      • looneydoone says:

        I believe you’re correct about the Zimmerman’s having a PR person shopping for media attention. The whole lot of them are self serving, cold, calculating, arrogant grifters. This is another attempt at getting “donations” It’s my hope Judge Nelson issues a gag order prohibiting this nonsense.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Not to mention that Robert Zimmerman admitted that he too would have lied to conceal the money. This disgusting family has only demonized themselves by telling all the lies the they incorporate into their family values!

        It is not like they were a close-knit family before the murder of Trayvon – they had not spoken to George in years! George did not bother to call his family the night he shot and killed a kid – he called Mark Osterman! I am also confident that the Zimmerman clan found out about the murder of Trayvon on the news just like the rest of America. He has brought another disgrace to the Zimmerman clan. His brother and sister are successful in their careers, mother and father retired from their successful careers and then there is George at 28 flunking out of law school, living off student loans and heavily medicated! He’d already been confronted about molesting a cousin for years. So wonder he cracked up and lost his mind! What a shame that he could be so vile as to gain recognition by murdering a kid that he knew was not a thug otherwise he would not have approached him. Zimmerman was well aware of his actions that night.

        Not even his NEN call makes any sense. The “button on his shirt” was the worse. How the hell did he get close enough or focus enough to realize that it was a button as opposed to a logo or patch of some sort? And since when does thugs wear buttons. Zimmerman knew Trayvon was an innocent kid walking alone in the dark and wanted him dead! There is no other way to understand the time stamp on the NEN with the distance of the walking that he alleges Trayvon did. George is scum and it pisses me off that anyone would stand by his side!

      • Nellie Nell says:

        My bad! I asked a question at the bottom of the forum this morning. I am going to pose it again.

        When George says that Trayvon “Sat up and said ‘you got me’ declaring defeat, why shoot him? Does that not mean that he gained control of the situation and could have held Trayvon at gunpoint until the police, who he knew were on the way, arrived? I mean it just does not sound fair for someone to still be shot even though they throw their hands in the air in defeat??? In my mind that make the killer much more cold that originally thought.

        • Patricia says:

          @Nellie –

          All that SUPPOSED waving of hands in the air stuff is INVENTED by Zimmerman, who said it happened AFTER the shot that killed Trayvon.

  23. If you read Ostermans statement, GZ had to pull the gun out of the holster, TURN IT!, then aim, and fire. Why would GZ have to turn it. Just another impossible manouevor while Trayvon sat on GZ and waited patiently to be sshot, I guess.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Osterman is suggesting that firearm was turned backwards in the holster, something that is done sometimes for quicker crossdrawing – holstering the gun rightside and then drawing with lefthand or vice versa. Though GZ was lefthanded, the evidence shows that he always holstered and shot with his right hand, so it’s doubtful that he turned the gun backwards. But I’ll leave that to people who carry, since I don’t.

    • Xena says:

      When I first saw LLMPapa’s vid on GZ’s holster, I asked my son about it and brought up the pics from discovery. My son has 12 yrs in the military so I figured he could explain it to me. He said it’s a right-handed holster, but because he carried it on the inside of his waistband, it would be clipped so that it is opposite; meaning that the butt of the gun would be forward for a cross-draw.

      That would also mean that it took GZ more effort to unholster the gun with his right-hand while on his back.

      When watching his re-enactment, GZ — for sure — uses his hand as though pulling the gun from the front — butt forward.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Back when this video was posted, there was confusion about his left-handedness and using a right-handed gun and holster among people like us who don’t use firearms. I still maintain he wouldn’t have had the gun turned butt forward if he routinely drew and shot with his right hand, which he is said to have done because the Kel-tec ejects shells from the right. It doesn’t make any sense to clip the gun backwards if you don’t crossdraw. It’s my understanding that many lefthanded people do not crossdraw unless they use lefthanded weapons, which GZ’s is not. Many don’t because their right eye is the stronger, more dominant eye and because left-handed weapons are rarer and more expensive.

        He would still have to contort his arm and wrist a little if on the ground or even if he was crouching over TM. The cops who directed the re-enactment should have made GZ do it in the physical position he claimed to be in during the shooting for better clarity.

      • Dave says:

        Xena,

        That holster can be worn 4 different ways. it has a belt loop on each side so that it can be worn on a belt on either side. it also has a loop on each side to hold a metal spring clip that attaches to the wearer’s waistband for an inside-the-pants concealed carry. In other photos of the holster, you can see the waistband clip attached to the right side of the holster where one would want it if he wanted to carry the gun inside the pants, butt rearward, on the right side.

      • Dave says:

        There are some better pictures of the holster on this page so you can see what I’m talking about. You can also tell from the condition of the thing that it has been worn a lot.

        http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php?topic=1985.0

      • Xena says:

        @Dave. I see what you’re saying. Thanks. What still concerns me is the way he reaches for his gun in his re-enactment. I wish that the officers accompanying him would have made him show it from the position on the ground.

      • PYorck says:

        I wish that the officers accompanying him would have made him show it from the position on the ground.

        From what I have heard in his book Osterman claims that they did just that. Of course it could be a mistake, but it might not be.

        I have to admit that I never considered the possibility before I heard that. However the video was released in two parts by the defense. It is not completely unthinkable that there is a third part.

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t see how he could use his upper arm to pin TM’s and still be able to move his lower arm to get the gun. Seems to me that he would have had to release TM’s hand to get his own hand to the gun. In the video he lifts his elbow so he can twist his arm around.

      • PYorck says:

        I don’t see how he could use his upper arm to pin TM’s and still be able to move his lower arm to get the gun.

        There is so much wrong with that. As you say he shouldn’t be able to move his lower arm. You can’t exert much force like that. Pinning an arm that can otherwise be moved freely would be ridiculously difficult. Then there is the issue that obviously GZ’s upper arm doesn’t extend very far down. TM sliding his hand down GZ’s side so high would be hard to explain.

      • Xena says:

        However the video was released in two parts by the defense.

        Here’s the first part. It was titled incorrectly so is difficult to find. The sound is not that great either. The second part is after they get in the car.

      • Xena says:

        I’m sorry. The first part is actually the re-enactment and the second part is when they are walking back.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Damn, this tragedy just keep getting deeper and deeper. After reviewing all the states evidence released to the public and all the sleuthing done by ordinary citizens, law experts, police, martial art people, etc…. I am starting to believe that George left his house to kill that night.

        The time stamp of his NEN call does not jive with all the walking Trayvon allegedly has done. The surveillance video does not jive with him parking at the Clubhouse. His appearance does not jive with being beat as he profess. And now someone has educated me on firearms and holsters! Why does he think people are stupid enough to believe what comes from his mouth. The lies that he, his family and friends tell are incredible. His brother admitted that he would have “lied about the money too” as he discussed the family values.

        I am so exhausted. I weep often for Trayvon – a kid that I’ve never met. I am so sorry that he had die at the hands of this murderer on that dark and rainy 2.26.12 without knowing why. As he begged for his life, Zimmerman had the nerve to shot him in his chest and then squeeze his chest to make sure that his very last breath was taken away! Zimmerman, you are not a hero. You are not worthy to walk the streets of any city and belong in jail! I will be glad when this trial is over or at least when I go back to work from medical leave so that I am not all day analyzing over evidence, blogs and videos.

    • Osterman knows more about GZs gun habits than anyone. In his statement, he says GZ turned the gun. Now, either he knows how and why GZ carries the way he does, or GZ told him that this is what he did. Either way, GZ performed miraculous manoevours while pinned under someone.

    • Dennis says:

      Zimmerman wants us to believe Martin is smart and stupid at the same time. Even though he claims that Martin saw the gun, he wants us to believe that Martin just sat there, let Zimmerman pull it out, and then let himself get shot. It would not be hard to disarm a person if you were on top of them. With two hands free it would be easy to grab the wrist of the attacker and point the weapon away from yourself.

  24. Yet, his friends and family feel the same way. All say he is NOT a liar and believe his story – hook, line, and sinker. Always remember GZs first story – he claims to have only remembered his having his gun on him when Trayvon tried to grab for it. Even though it was inside HIS waistband, Trayvon had X-ray eyes, considering GZ only said his jacket moved up. Concealed weapon — maybe not.

  25. Malisha says:

    I hate to go OT, but here’s a thought I’ll toss in for today: the “god defense.” I am not talking about George Zimmerman telling Hannity that his getting out of his car, with a loaded gun, was “God’s plan” that he could not “second-guess or question,” [little shake of the Georgie-head accompanied this profoundly stupid remark] but the more serious, more widespread idea that people like George cling to when they are justifying (for others, mostly) unjustifiable behavior.

    There are actually cases, of course, of people who become psychotic and who, in a psychotic state, lose touch with reality and believe that either God, Satan, some variation (a saint or an angel or a demon etc.) or just “voices” tell them to do something. I am not talking about that. I am talking about people who simply use the god-justification technique, as is, without even claiming that there was a godly voice saying, for instance: GEORGE get out of the car NOW; GEORGE, reach for your gun and shoot this “guy” now; or something like that. It is, of course, both the ultimate hubris and the ultimate deception.

    But what happens, I believe, perhaps gradually or even all at once, is that a practiced self-deceiver like George Zimmerman comes to really think he is blessed enough, deputized by god enough, “special” enough, to change the reality to what becomes essentially a more acceptable reality. That is, although the story was PHYSICALLY different from the way he told it, he thinks that doesn’t matter because in his muddled mind, the REAL reality is equivalent to the story he told.

    Like this:

    What happened in physical reality: He either saw Trayvon or someone alerted him to Trayvon’s presence in the community so he decided to “bring him in.”

    He phoned NEN to show that he was facing a serious situation in the neighborhood, and to get it on the record that there was a “suspicious guy” about.

    He then followed, chased down, and tried to apprehend Trayvon, but it did not go well. Instead of being a hero, he was in danger of being identified as a problem, and maybe he could even be arrested, ruining his chances at a law enforcement career. It seems to me that in his mind, right then, all of this was a crime that was caused by, brought about by, instigated by Trayvon Martin, the “fucking punk” who was trying to “get away.”

    Thus, Trayvon’s behavior in trying to escape George becomes, in George’s mind, the criminal behavior he expected from the “punk” and confirms his ideas. The harder he tries to restrain, dominate and subdue Trayvon, the worse the scene plays out. So he kills him.

    Now in George’s own mind, simply changing around the physical realities a bit (saying Trayvon was on top of George when really George was on top of Trayvon, saying Trayvon was hostile when in fact George was hostile, saying Trayvon was threatening George’s life when in fact George was threatening Trayvon’s life) is not so terrible when, to George, the “REAL REALITIES” are still the same. George is still (as Serino says) the “good guy here.” Trayvon is still the “fucking punk” and Trayvon is the one who is a criminal and causes the problem, thus, causes his own death.

    I think at this point in time George really believes his version of the underlying “REAL REALITY” even though he may still retain enough mental acuity to know that he is just plain lying about the head-smashing ghetto-talkin’ nose-fracturin’ punk who made George kill him.

    • Xena says:

      Malisha, GZ is indeed a study of a person with a depraved mind. Watching that interview, Hannity asked;
      “Do you feel you would not be here for this interview if you didn’t have that gun?”

      GZ answered “No sir.” It shocked Hannity and he asked the question again. That is when GZ gave his “God’s plan” response.

      Help me break that down. GZ believes that he would be on Hannity’s program even if he had not had a gun that night. Why? Because whatever GZ wanted to happen the evening of 2/26/12 was intended, in his mind and purpose, to give him special recognition? It’s not the act or the substance, but the recognition that he holds God responsible for. IOWs, God wants him to be famous.

      GZ effectively separated his actions from the result. That is also why he was unable to give a sensible answer to whether he’s had time to reflect. He reflected while he was behind bars. After posting bond, his thoughts are focused on being popular — a celebrity. He loves the attention.

      But notice, when asked if he regrets having a gun that night, GZ looks upward to his left. IIRC, that is body language for reaching for a lie. IMO, his regret of having a gun that night is because it is a direct violation of NW. Thus, we now have his brother and Osterman arguing in the media that GZ was not on NW duty that night. Absurd!!! When he called NEN to report a suspicious person, GZ put on his NW hat. The gun should have been left in his truck.

      He has a license to carry, but what if he was entering an airport? Could he ask that the rules be ignored because he wasn’t intending on being a passenger and decided at the last minute that he saw someone who he needed to follow?

      • gblock says:

        I’m not sure if there is some central NW organization. If there is, they must really want to deny any connection to GZ. He has given them some really bad press by blatantly disregarding their most basic rules.

    • Dennis says:

      He’s surely not going to win the hearts of any peaceful Christians on the jury. If O’Mara had his wish, he would probably want all atheists. Not sure how any religious person can believe that “God’s Plan” would be to have someone almost beat him to death, have him shoot the person, and then face a murder trial.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        even us atheists are insulted by the concept – was just discussing this with a small group earlier this evening (none of us believers) and we are all appalled at the situation and that particular choice of words. just because i do not believe, does not lessen my empathy for trayvon’s parents who clearly do.

    • jm says:

      I haven’t really studied or followed this case like most regular posters here but I wanted to know if part of this Hannity interview can be used to prove GZ has a depraved mind who has no remorse, even months after he found out he had killed a high school teen with no criminal record and no history of violence.

      I can almost see being without remorse.if he had killed a real bad guy, a drop-out with a record a mile long, but by the time of this interview, GZ knows he was wrong about Trayvon and that his belonged in the neighborhood.

      The reason I ask is I can barely stand to looking at the smirking GZ and this interview is when I grew to despise him (and Hannity) so I am wondering if the interview is admissible in court to show lack of remorse and depraved mind as well as changing his 02/26 dispatcher documented Trayvon is running story to Trayvon was skipping.

  26. I was wondering if anyone besides me heard more than one shot on the 911 call caught by, I believe witness # 11? I know that there was GSR on the shoulder of the jacket Z had on, and I know that the shell casing was shown to fly over your back in a video of the 9mm kel tec.

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