Friday, June 28, 2013
Good evening:
Unfortunately, I had to go to Nashville today and missed the morning session.
I returned home in time to watch the testimony of Officer Tim Smith and Lindsey Fulgate, the PA who saw GZ the morning after the shooting. Turns out GZ’s medical records contained a gold mine of information.
Fulgate did not see GZ exhibit any symptoms of possible brain injury and thought it was unlikely that his brain sustained an injury. She recommended GZ follow-up with a visit to an ENT, but he refused.
BDLR found references in GZ’s medical records to MMA-style fighting. For example, he found a notation dated sometime in September, 2011 stating he was participating in an MMA-style aerobic workout three times per week.
Smith mentioned that he searched his patrol vehicle after transporting GZ and did not find any blood where GZ was sitting.
Good day for the prosecution.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Mr De La Rionda could have done a much better job in rebutting and countering with the physician assistant. He allowed OMara to get this woman to state as truth this man had a broken nose and his injuries could have been or likely consistent with injuries from a side walk. First, Bernie should have focused in on the point that this person could not testify to anything other that what is superficial because the defendant simply did not seek additional evaluation or diagnostic testing to determine the severity of his injuries including what OMara wanted to state were subdural hematomas or bleeding in the brain or the broken nose. The nose was most likely not broken given how quickly the swelling went down at the police station. Looking at it superficially, it was most likely caused by busted blood vessels or capillaries. Yes, there would be some bruising around the area and that is due to blood escaping the blood vessels to pool under the skin, not necessarily that the nose was broken. Also I do believe the EMT said they saw no dried blood in the nose, so where was the blood coming from? Bernie should have honed in on that. Given the superficial abrasions and scrapes it could be determined that the WOUNDS WERE NOT DIRE, given his Glasgow Coma scale score by the EMTs, given his speech, his gait, given his ability for him to recall information so effortlessly to officers during interrogation, and the defendant himself said he felt well enough to not go to the hospital and lastly he went to the physician simply for a return to work note and refused any additional diagnostic testing to verify the severity of injuries.
Next, the nature of the scrapes could have been caused by rocks, debris, dirt within the grass and not necessarily the concrete. He allowed OMara to corral the witness into saying his injuries were likely caused by concrete. Bernie clearly missed that opportunity. He missed a lot of opportunity because everything on this man was superficial and this witness could not or should not have been able to testify what was going on under his thick skull because she had no other information that what could be seen.
I believe he covered those matters adequately and probably has a trauma specialist he intends to call to wrap up any loose ends.
I agree that she testified beyond the scope of her knowledge because she can only go by what she saw that day and her diagnosis that day was neither head trauma nor a broken nose. I think Bernie allows O’Mara to make a fool of himself because he knows the jurors are not stupid. The West and O’Mara show is about causing doubt, not about proving that Zimmerman didn’t murder Martin coldly and intentionally. As soon as O’Mara lies on behalf of his client, Bernie back doors with more facts. For example, O’Mara put on a really stupid show about how Zimmerman was staggering and in pain and he got Selma to admit to such and then the next day Bernie brings in a witness to say that when Selma saw Zimmerman’s hand to his head it wasn’t because he was staggering in pain, it’s because he was on the phone. Bernie has done this several times throughout the trial and he is telling the jury, “you can trust us, we did not bring this man to court for no reason.”
I think he could do a better job at recovering witnesses from the state’s foolishness but by letting them get away with this he is letting them show their entire hand and then he can continue to close off all of the avenues that could keep Zimmerman from testifying. In closing arguments I am sure he will remind the jurors of all the ways the defense tried to confuse witnesses and confuse the jurors but the evidence is overwhelming and they beat subterfuge with hard, cold, facts. I have faith in the State. I think they are fighting tooth and nail for Martin and unlike the defense, they are not playing these women for stupid.
I meant recover witnesses from the defenses foolishness
I was reading along here as my phone went in and out on Friday and I don’t recall y’all saying BDLR had passed the photo of Tray lying dead in the grass to the jury. Why do you suppose he did it when John Good was on the stand? He impeached Good’s testimony with that photo showing Martin’s body lying wholly in grass. Good claimed he saw the two move up to the sidewalk as he stood there yet Martin was not found on the sidewalk. That means either Good is lying about ever seeing this sidewalk shuffle or he is in fact a weaker witness than he realizes. He did not see the final moments of this per his own testimony so he can’t explain why Martin didn’t die closer to the sidewalk. Bernie asked him specific questions so if he is called back his ass is grass. Good was all over the place on the stand. He went from stepping one foot out the door for a few seconds to seeing this start on the grass and move towards the concrete, he saw hands pressing down, he heard someone ask for help. At first he saw it for a few seconds and then that changed to 10 seconds yet he called 911 after everyone else. I believe he also realized in total darkness that Zimmerman was light on the bottom and Trayvon was black. No one else could make this out. What was Good doing before he called police? On the 911 cal he says Martin is black. How did he know? Bernie knows something. He also zoomed in on Good’s house number for a reason.
I’m glad you mentioned Bernie passing that picture around the jury — I had forgotten that. I think you’re right that it sets up JG as an unreliable witness if need be (even as he extracted some very powerful points for the Prosecution out of JG’s testimony).
I had assumed that Bernie got JG’s and Ms. Lauer’s front house numbers in as evidence as more foundation that CAC had lighted address numbers right by where he reportedly parked his shtruck . . . but maybe there’s more. Bwhahahahahahahahhaha!
Was it ever confirmed who GZ was on the phone with after the shooting and before police arrived? Thanks !
I think the prosecution kept the cell-phone records secret until trial. Don’t remember them being in the discovery. I’m sure we will hear about them sometime soon.
Ok thanks Dennis. I know they had a phone records guy on the stand this week and wondered if I had missed the information somehow. Have been waiting a long time to find out, lol !
Well I did not pay attention to the entire trial this week but I also did not hear anything about cell phone records in Frederick’s articles or the news.
The phone records have been introduced, that is someone from the phone company has authenticated them. Then they can call whoever worked on them to talk about what’s in them.
Same with the clubhouse videos. Someone from the management company has said yes, this is those videos etc etc. It’s not for him to say what they show.
Same even with the PA from the medical centre. Her job mostly was to introduce the medical records. Others can be called later to talk about what is in them.
This is done to get some proof of where some data comes from, so they can’t just invent something. Same even with Technician Smith, introducing the evidence items. Others will be along in a while to explain the forensic findings on those items.
@IMBack, yes, I work near downtown. We have even more in common than you know LOL.
So if forinstace a simple minded white person
Dissclaimer I in no way shape or for consider RACHEL MY SPECIAL GAL simple minded.
But say a F Gump type character got on the stand to give evidence,
Would the P T B insist he be schooled in his use of venicular lanquage an how to answer a question in proper speak as oppose street lingo.
Just in case the watching WORD thought all white people speak think an act like that?
I found an interesting article where this health expert believes Rachel’s inabilities to be coherent and other things are the result of brain damage from fluoride/lead and other chemicals. He says it is NOT from cultural differences.
http://www.infowars.com/illiterate-rambling-defense-witness-rachel-jeantel-is-a-victim-of-brain-damaging-mass-fluoridation-vaccines-and-nutrient-depleted-foods/
no infowars
no thanks
She was plenty coherent during her second day of testimony.
What a bunch of hoooey from some agenda-promoter who has never met Rachel and who doesn’t know beans about her. No, it was not “interesting” except in a sense of being irresponsible, and I am surprised you posted this link.
@Trained Observer
If you want to keep being brainwashed by the American Medical Association and FDA, be my guest. Eating organic is the only way to maintain a healthy body. Processed foods contain over 10,000 chemicals that they don’t have to list on the box. Aspartame and many other chemicals kill your brain, destroy your immune system, and cause disease.
@Trained Observer
There is a big difference between calling someone stupid and saying they have brain damage. English is her first language. She has lived here her entire life. If you say she does not have brain damage, you are either saying she is stupid or it is a cultural difference, in explanation of why she isn’t totally coherent.
If you blame her incoherent speech on cultural differences, you are basically saying she speaks Ebonics and that is racist in my mind.
@dennis
on re-direct examination, it was made clear that her first language was creole, then spanish and that is what is still used in their home. english would have come in formally when she began school.
her speech is a dialect which comes from the islands in which her parents were born and raised; this is not ebonics and no one here is calling it such.
my own dialect is somewhat peculiar as i was born in california, but raised by a southern mom and a father who grew up in such an isolated part of the country that the family retained some of the original scots they brought when they moved here around 1710.
my educational background is anthropology, which as you might guess contains a fair amount of linguistics. ms. jeantel’s speech is a recognizable dialect, nothing more and nothing less. it is somewhat similar to that of a former friend/roommate of mine who is black hispanic and from puerto rico, but who moved to new york as a young teen. what we learn at home is bound to be one’s dialect and that would be firmly established by the time one starts school and is exposed to formal english – that would have been her third language to learn at a very young age, but her dialect remains intact.
Dennis — Get a grip. I’ve not said any of what you’ve attributed to me. I found her perfectly coherent on the stand, which is more than I can say about you and your nutsy nutritional fixations.
I’m not understanding the prosecution line of questioning. To me this has been an bad week for them. Lauer, Good and Manaola are LIARS and they know more then what they’re telling. Didn’t y’all find it suspicous that Manaola ask GZ after he shot TM what kind of bullet you used.
No this guy had just witttnessed a CHILD iin distress an adult distressing him an not intervened.
I would have got in between or hauled his ass of.
I would have blinded them both with flashlight an screamed ARMED PLOICE DROP YOUR WEAPON.
shouted IM filming this your either gonna bbe on youtube or the 9 oclock news STOP,
I would have never have left a child in distress in any case or scenario.
So no he is a callous self centred p o s
Whom couldn’t get enough of TRAYVON after death but nothing to stop it occouring just like the other mma prick. jon or john wittness
before a gun is heard everyone there practically hid! after the gunshot! they are coming out that makes no sense ,and not one of them so called men never went to try, and help the victim!! it makes me sick 😦
@Cindy
This is sad to say, but think of it this way, most of the witnesses knew something was going on and most people will not get involved as far as going out to help, they may help by calling the police but not to get physically involved. Consider this, the threat was gone after the gunshot, therefore they came out of hiding. Very sad indeed.
@cindy
@blushed brown
selma mora showed more balls than any one of them. she went out there, deliberately, to stop a fight. she did not even know that she had heard gun shots, she just wanted the violence to stop and was willing to put herself in harms way.
Zimmerman refused to identify himself before
@ 1:30
He knew his interactions with his “suspects” were wrong if not illegal, that’s why he would not id himself
he knew he had to kill Trayvon, because he realized he had finally gone too far to be saved from himself.
lawdy, I have been looking for this video… thank you so much Tzar… you don’t know how long I have been looking for this… sheeZers..
Thank you for posting, tsar. Had not seen before. … Certainly illustrates a run-up to the depraved mind theory. Is Jospeh Shirley scheduled to testify for the State?
@Tzar:
Thanks for this video Tzar! I had this video, and I don’t know where it ended up! LOL! Will this young man being testifying? I believe that Fogen totally lost his mind and was so delusional about this NW position! He was harassing all of the black males inthe community but he stood back when this one confrontd him and told him he WOULD not answer his BS questions.
Poor Tm being a kid, could not have stood up to Fogen and his gun. Fogen pushed TM. I wholeheartedly believe that. After he asked him, “What are doing around here?” He shoved him! TM tried to fight back and did his best but he was no match for Fogen. Fogen told TM this, “You’re going to die tonight MFer,” Then he pulled him by his shirt and hoodie, and shot him directly in the chest! Lord have nercy, please let the jury convict this child killer!
follow
Hinster for ever relax calm down an take a chill pill
Ecossie possie speaking.
This case is in the bag done seale delivered the only possible way of aquital 6 stealth treepers.
Or tied jurey couple of stealt.
If its a fair an Impartial its a done deal.
The State has the LUXURY OF LEAVEING ITS VERY STRONGEST EVIDENCE
Untill rebuttal a rare luxury ….
They will let them huff puff an furflufle
West will drone on for hours about minutie that’s irrelevant not only to this case .
But any unrelated to anything.
Foggagge has to put his big boi diepers on an TAKE THE STAND
An be brave an explain what happened .
So as bravery is involved it WONT HAPPEN.
No matter if B Shysster say he just HAS to he is a COWARD SO WONT.
So even if the State had nothing it could say state rest sit down
An win a conviction for first never mind second degree.,,
But know the rebuttal from the defence is where all the good strong blowing away a straw house with an fan you would use in an air tunnel streamline test
Rebuttal will be the cou de gra.
Foggagge is fogged.
colin~ foggage is fogged, flogged and leathered!
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The article linked below is an interesting looking at the schism within the AA community, in it’s social media reaction to Rachel (think Gabby Douglas and the focus on her hair, after she had just won the gold medal). An excerpt (below) shows the author’s attempts to address this within the AA community.
I post this realizing the tangential link, but for those here who have stated they don’t know much about the inner workings of the AA community, I thought they might appreciate some small insight from a credible source(Ebony Magazine, not me 🙂 ) that attempts to dissect and address these issues from within.
The comparison to Emmett Till’s uncle, who stood up at the trial of his nephew’s murderers and pointed the finger of accusation at the defendants, and identified them is his own voice, that of a poorly educated black man, of those times, in the south; is also incredibly poignant.
“Dar he”, indeed.
http://www.ebony.com/news-views/when-you-make-fun-of-rachel-jeantel-you-make-fun-of-us-333#.Uc8B-BoGmsQ.facebook
I thought of Mose Wright when Rachel was testifying. Thank you for this article.
🙂
I can’t afford to let fear hold me back. I already have been there and done that… Fear saved my life. I advocate for Domestic Violence, Abuse, and Rape Adult/Child online. I was a victim of all and was born of Rape and now a Survivor. I am in the process of writing a book. But the Trayvon Martin case has overwhelmed me at the moment and other things. I am trying to become a speaker. But like Dee Dee, I do not speak well in front of people. but can speak very good on the phone and in my videos. I do have my own youtube channel. this is something I wrote for Survivors.
And I will keep this in mind also 🙂
smokeegyrl~ THANK YOU for making a difference! Public speaking has always ranked in the Top 10 of people’s fears. Personally I ADORE public speaking, but I’m a bit of a ham. Try attending Toastmasters International. They are a group dedicated to making its members proficient public speakers. That might aid you in your vocation. Just a thought. Keep up the good work!
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@smokeegyrl
Your video brought me to tears, for I too am a survivor. Thank you so much for this!
yvw… it’s amazing how many of us there are… that have made it… and those that did not get that chance such as Trayvon.
yvw
Professor,
Questions
Does provocation requires that Prosecution show who hit whom first?
I think that can be determined by logical inference even without Rachel’s testimony, but I think she confirms it.
Or, it is sufficient to demonstrate that there was a threat in the form of Zimmerman pursuing TM.
Defenders keep saying that to demonstrate provocation one must show an illegal act by Zimmerman first. Is this accurate?
I’ve read your writing on this, but can’t find the prior articles.
Does provocation requires that Prosecution show who hit whom first?
Answer: No, following can constitute provocation.
Defenders keep saying that to demonstrate provocation one must show an illegal act by Zimmerman first. Is this accurate?
Answer: No
i am not a lawyer, but i can tell you that zimmerman’s actions constituted assault (personally threatening) and as such, self defense on the behalf of trayvon should be able to be argued successfully. the prosecution hinted at it in one of the bond hearings held. just wait for it — they will set it up with testimony and drive it home during closing arguments.
most of the people defending zimmerman do not understand the basic difference between assault and battery – i would suggest looking them up, particularly florida statutes.
New post up:
How to prepare a winning closing argument
I have spoken to sooo many people regarding this and believe you me everyone Hates Taffee and Zimmerman!! Some have said they Hate Taffee even more!!!
I also heard from people that if Zimmerman wins he will Loose because there are so many people that want him!!! He and his friend Taffee are hated more than Casey Anthony, so in the end they WILL get what they deserve!!
Just sit back and watch!!
Oh and by the way I am a white women and all of the people I have interviewed were white!!
So it will be real interesting to see what happens down the road!!
Louie, I am a white woman and all my friends know I follow this case closely and blog about it. So they have all called me yesterday and today worried because they heard media reports that we are losing. I had a good laugh about some of the things they have heard, such as:
* Trayvon’s hands showed his knuckles all bruised and bloody from punching Fogen (I said, “The ME has not even testified yet, but the autopsy showed NO BRUISING OR SCRAPING OF KNUCKLES)
* Trayvon really was on top beating up Fogen and got shot from underneath (I said, “Six witnesses put Trayvon either running and standing, wrestling without knowledge of who was on top, or directly UNDER Fogen when the shot was fired and the only witness who ever saw Trayvon on top only saw that for 10 seconds and then went INTO the house and out of visual contact before the shot was fired”)
* Fogen really had a broken nose and had subdural hematomas (I said neither was testified to; a PA said that Fogen COULD have had either but it was not diagnosed and it was not in the medical record; in fact his head was atraumatic and normocephalic)
* The girlfriend lied and her testimony was impeached (I said she lied about a couple of immaterial and irrelevant things that happened after Trayvon’s death but she testified abolutely perfectly that Trayvon was scared, was followed by Fogen in the car, was chased down by Fogen on foot, and was accosted by Fogen while he was trying to get away from him)
So then they calmed down. A couple of them wanted to know why the State was “messing up” and I said the State was NOT messing up, that the media was messing up and the people following the case were suffering from prolonged stress reactions.
So they were comforted. Several have agreed to take me out after the conviction for a big celebration. I’m gonna make them buy me ice cream!
lol malisha
Malisha~ WONDERFUL post! Yes, I saw several “news” channels stating all the lies and the talking “legal analysts” heads that have refused from Day One to really LOOK at the available evidence in this case. I have comforted myself with several of the points that you made, but I will SAVE this one for further self-grounding. We haven’t gotten to the ME yet, nor the ballistics! BTW, what’s your favorite flavor? 😉
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WE KICKING ASS NEXT!
MOM, don’t have to many other option after this past week, he’s questioned almost every witness that could help There case that was there that night. I say it’s time to take off the gloves Bernie, and give him a MMA style beat down since they are so familiar with ” ground & pound!
MOM wanted to speak to John at the end of the day. We may seem back as a defense witness after an MOM pep talk. b/c he was excused, he can have conversations about the case with anyone, including attorneys.
Rachel was NOT excused. She is still under subpoena b/c the defense may want to recall her. This prevents this publicity hungry young woman from talking with any lawyers, including her own, or anyone about the case. (publicity hungry is sarcasm).
They can’t stop her from talking to her OWN lawyers. I am not a Constitutional expert but I am sure there’s something there that they can’t deprive someone their legal representation.
She’s not meant to be talking to the lawyers involved in the case, ie prosecution and defence.
That order is also good security for her as it prevents the media from chasing after her.
This is what I took away from week 1. West is a moron at opening statements in Murder 2 case. Never good to joke. EVER! Rachel reinforced Fogen’s statement Trayvon ran. Reinforced Fogen watched. He checking me out, he walking right to me- you know that line of b.s. Also her phone records and Trayvon’s phone records indicate he was on the phone until 2 to 3 minutes before his death. I would expect the jury to think that thru. A fight 1 armed 1 unarmed, a real fight imo would take longer to get to gun.
3 HOLY crap, defense team released all kinds of MMA shit about Trayvon weeks before start of trial. Everyone heard about it. So I am sure it may have been in the back of the jurors minds. THEN they find out yesterday Fogen himself trained 3 times per week for 3 hours at a time. PRETTY cool golden egg for prosecutor imo.
This fight where Fogen is going to have to testify did not warrant ANY stitches and no one can confirm broken nose.
I am not to worried. We still have phone records. If fogen did not call 911 just after shooting Trayvon the jury may wonder why. IMO he did not. West I believe said something to the effect so if fogen called 911 right then or 4 minutes before, blah blah blah. I believe they were talking to John (picture taker). We have dna, forensics, ME and possible gym owner. Don’t forget Jenna can be recalled and asked about Fogen’s violent past thanks to MOM. Also jurors heard about psyche doctor.
I would think the utterances attributed to Trayvon by Zimmerman speak to his racist view of AAs. No one has testified to hearing those things yet he emphasized those blaxploitation phrases as part of the encounter. Since he has psycho problems, maybe he did hear a voice or imagine himself being in a 1970s black movie.
“blaxploitation” — yes!
I don’t know if anyone fought this yesterday but John good seems to be the witness Mom was speaking of in the pre trial motions to have his identity concealed. And mom said that they had a witness who saw the whole thing .
I saw that. Especially when MOM started his cross and went on and on about how he wanted to by anonymous.
If someone saw the whole thing why didn’t they go to the SPD or FDLE? Are going to lie in support of CAC.
Florida laws for evidences are to transparent if he had such witness the prosecution would know about it and better yet he would have posted that person everywhere. Mr. Good only saw 10 seconds of the tussle.
My fave passage from the professor’s update: “BDLR found references in GZ’s medical records to MMA-style fighting. For example, he found a notation dated sometime in September, 2011 stating he was participating in an MMA-style aerobic workout three times per week. ” — Frederick Leatherman
Eureka!
Despite many posters’ steady streams of knocks and despair, I believe the first week of trial testimony, as a whole, was a solid demo of watching a mason build a foundation with old-style Chicago bricks — some a little chipped, but all quite functional — where mortar application will be cleaned up as things progress. Especially with more wits awaiting, plus upcoming cross, redirect and rebuttal opportunities.
Some of these cold, looking-out-only-for-themselves wits, likely will return in the Defense line-up, and I suspect a couple will find themselves torn in half if not shredded by the State.
Little, seemingly innocuous things do add up or at least create curiosity — like the guy who said he locked his patio door behind him on his way to call 911 in a written statement, but who pooh-poohed that notion on the stand.
Am going to review some testimony over this weekend without work week interruptions and aggravation. Enjoy, everyone.
Exactly. This is not BDLR’s first time at this. He knows what he’s doing. Certain people he has to put up there and question regardless because of Florida rules. But he gets what he needs from them. Like you said, he’s building something. It may not seem like anything now, but when he puts it all together, you will see where every brick fits. There is a lot to still come, including the defense.
It is early. Not even half-way through. It’s going to be okay. You’ll see.
My thoughts exactly. The State’s lack of objections and relaxed attitude is both comforting and worrisome; comforting in that it appears to be it’s a sign of confidence; worrisome in that i’m not 100% confident that it is. Everytime I doubt the prosecutions, though, I remember Guy’s opening statement, “We are confident at the end of this trial you will know in your head, in your heart and your stomach that George Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon Martin because he had to, he shot him for the worst of all reasons: because he wanted to.”
I agree… I also thought it was BRILLIANT how BLDR had the PA testify AFTER John-the-lier! BLDR basicly used his john’s testimony to debunk john’s lies… The PA identified the person with MMA experience… FOGEN.. She also pointed out that FOGEN hiself did not believe his injuries were life threatning by refusing to see an ENT!!! AND, the the FACT that fogen’s cat scratches were not serious (and did not even require sutures) as some of the witnessess claimed. No matter how long the defense showed those pictures, the jury is NOT stupid.. They know fogen big ass armed with all that MMA experience and a fully loaded 9mm, following a unarmed kid was NOT IN FEAR OF HIS LIFE… like DeeDee said, “THAT’S RETARDED, SIR”… Finally, I loved what Bernie left the jury to think about when he asked the PA, (and I paraphrase) “HOW MUCH TRAMA COULD A 9MM BULLET THROUGH THE HEART CAUSE?” even though it was objected… That’s all the jurors will be thinking about this weekend…. IMHO…
The MMA was my favorite part this week. I’m waiting for someone from the gym that’s the icing on the cake.
I suspect with the reports that the owner/operator of the “gym” has said basically that the Fogdoit cold not fight his way out of a paper bag and was a wimp. With the massive support that the anti-black forces that have swept the area I think it would be safe to guess that most contacts have been forewarned about what not to say at the trial if called… Even the PA’s testimony is strange, I would wonder why she would note that the Fogdoit was taking “aerobic mmm courses”, that just does not seem something that he would have confessed to, what man do you know that would tell a woman he was taking “aerobic” classes? Think about this for just a moment, here we have a super hero (in his own mind) like the Fogdoit telling a female that he is a sissy? Just does not seem realistic does it? Documents changed to fit the story?
crazy~ I don’t think it matters whether gz could beat someone HIS OWN SIZE with MMA techniques. The issue is that HE KNEW THEM (the MMA techniques) and could very easily apply them to a complete novice who was 40 pounds lighter than him.
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Jr tweeted that fogen hardy used membership…
truthseeker~ LOL! That’s easy to verify! In order to get into any gym, you have to flash your membership card, usually electronically. You BET they probably have EXACTLY the number of times gz went to the gym for those classes!Joonyar has NO IDEA how the world tracks nearly everything you do.
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cielo62, I totally agree with your assessment of the Fogdoits involvement and the proof he did in fact study MMA does not mean that he could or could not use them to overpower a mere child. However, what I was trying to give is the perspective that MOM/West were going to attempt to portray as accurate. Personally I think he was too much of a coward to even consider taking on some one he did not know he could over power, his past dealing with females is a good example of his cowardice.. IMO (I hope this makes a little sense to you, I am trying to do about five things at once and not only do I not multi task well, some times I don’t eve uni-task well!)
How does he know?
They were estranged…right?
@ Crazy1946
My take on that was that it reflects limitations in the medical software that the practice uses. I think she said it uses drop-downs. And I think that “aerobic exercise” was selected by either herself or someone else in the office from a drop-down, and then she manually entered “MMA classes.” So the printout/report would show something like, “Aerobic Exercise – MMA Classes.”
(Not that it matters all that much – and I could be wrong – but that was my impression from the PA’s testimony.)
@ riisey007, I too am a medical professional
When I first learned that he claimed to have had his head repeadly slammed into the concert sidewalk then just got up and walked away, i said it must be a miracle.first the cuts would be linear, second they would not be that small after the second or third slammed. Intracranial bleeding, a concussion, lose of consciousness, nausea, vomiting. he should have something on this list, hell I don’t know how he lived or at least not hospitalised for a traumatic brain injury. His brain should have shifted so many times that he should still not be able to speak properly. One last thing he should have suffered some sort of neck injury. I have always said how the hell did he get his head slammed into cement and be able to scream, apply a wrist lock, pull and airm his gun and shoot a perfect shot. He must not be human. Medical impossibility!
Agree.
Here’s a definite Fogen tell: “No-o!” when asked in one of the interviews if he had animostiry towards pba-lack people (I forget the question), and as I was reminded in the video “You Got A Problem Homie?” posted above by My Forehead Tho. He answers whether he wanted to chase Trayvon (or something to that effect) and then another similar question, and it’s the same overemphasized, higher-pitched, almost two-syllable, “No-o!” That’s a lying ‘no.’
To me it SOUNDED like he punctuated the “no-ho” with his little classic chuckle-fragment smirk. As on Hannity. No-ho [smirk]. Punks [smirk].
Saying ‘no’ with a rising then falling pitch in the ‘o’ has always seemed like a tell. It’s not a solid and definitive ‘no’ — the overemphasis in “no-o!” undermines the credibility.
Puck- so glad I’m not only one picking up on that! That overstated No-o is also heard during the reenactment video when pull into the clubhouse parking lot, they ask is that where he got out of his truck and also during his voice stress test when he’s telling the interviewer that Trayvon punched him in the nose knocking him to the ground and mounted him… and the interviewer asks is that when he pulled his weapon and he says No-o!
You nailed it, LLMPapa.
Why is she doing this???
There are klanswomen also….along with klan kids…..
Good morning, Pat! 🙂
Guten morgen my Dear 🙂
Yes this is what I am talking about she has been lying from day one. When I saw her on the stand as Bernie questioned her I watch her face the left side of her mouth stayed pinched and tilted upward, Sign of contempt. I knew her and her husband were liars. The tape shows he was outside and so was she there is no way we could hear the exchange between Trayvon & GZ so clearly. She was on the patio and he was outside of it.
In John’s testimony yesterday he said something to the effect he was not out there when the gun went off but something he said made me think he implied others were. If you get time re-watch his testimony and see if you catch it. As soon as he said I commented about it yesterday. If you get time you could look for that comment from yesterday, although over 2000 comments might be quicker to watch him testify. 🙂
And let’s bring your other video from yesterday here:
“While we were both in there [kitchen] is when the gun shot went off.”
The shot was fired at 07:16:56, and God’s gift to Sanford Florida is still emphatically demanding that Jeremy join her in the kitchen at 07:17:16.
???
Come to Papa!
“He told me it would [sair] you.
Jeremy’s phone, she said was not working for th e911 call, but did he get it to connect when he said ‘He told me it would [sair] you.”? And was he trying to get through when he was swearing?
Look at this wintenss’s body language, the chin up defiantly, head thrown back, no need for a pro to tell someone what that means in basic communications between people.
Makes you wonder what she is misrepresenting, and if GZ told someone to call his wife because this was going to scare her.
Doesn’t seem that Mrs. Lauer is shaken badly by the gunshot, so ‘he’, whoever ‘he’ is, wasn’t likely concerned about warning Jeremy for Jeremy’s wife’s fears.
Could be a first call to SZ before the shot.
LLMPapa, THANK YOU for including a floor plan of the townhouse in the video. I had difficulty placing witnesses’ positions in their respective homes as they gave testimony about what they heard or saw during the killing. I think a floor plan would have immensely helped the jury as well. It certainly would have more demonstrative to have Selma Mora show her activities on the floor plan rather than MOM’s fiasco of having her take off her shoes in the courtroom to demonstrate how she made coffee.
@ Medusausi – Yes, great point! It’s a shame that floor plans weren’t introduced as evidence for each of the RTL witnesses when they testified.
x1000, Papa. And the sound that I have seen people say is their sliding glass door, is a cheap screen door slamming. I believe they were on the screen porch and he went outside.
Yes. I hear a screen door slam.
hahaha
We got papa back in
I knew this case could do it
and boy am I glad!!!!!
woo hooo!!!!
That has never made sense to me, either, because … well … how could it?
I am a medical professional, trauma is my business.
1. The nose as broken should not even be in the court records, you can’t say that his nose has been broken when there are no x rays to prove it! Zimmerman was not in any pain and from my experience with broken noses of this type, the pressure from the back flow of blood alone would be enough to make you lose your mind. Since he did not want to see the ENT so that he could clean it out and prescribe pain medicine, I don’t see it as being broken and I am tired of hearing it.
2. How does one get his head slammed into concrete over a dozen times and recieve 2 nicely placed slits on the back of their head? Let me tell you I have placed plenty of head injuries on the ventilator and this guy is full of crap, you don’t get that from having your head pounded like that. What you get is your brain shifting and swelling and your cranium filling up with free blood. Zimmerman should not have been able to attend court because he should be dead! no one could survive that! I need for prosecution to remind the jury of how many times Zimmerman claims that his head was slammed. It is impossible for someone to get up and walk away from something like that. He would not have even gotten those 2 slants from the sidewalk, I wish his head had been shaven down so we could see but since Sanford dropped the bomb we only get those pictures from someone’s camera. It really is just a mess.
I will say this until I die that Zimmerman knew that night and knows now that he did not sustain those injuries from Martins fist nor did he get his head slammed over a dozen times on hard ass concrete and is living to tell about it. Screw that crap!!
I agree. Screw that crap!
Agree!!
Makes you wonder what any of the Fogen experts say about those wounds. No x-rays, no hospital visit, not much for them to talk about. Not even his own experts can claim those were life threatening injuries. If they do, they are liars.
Here is where the problem is. The injuries themselves do not have to be life threatening. He doesn’t even have to have ANY injuries. He had to “reasonably” fear for his life. That is where part of the problem is. The other part is his story of having his head bashed into concrete over and over and being pounded in the face 20-40 times.
His injuries are NOT life-threatening, and I don’t think you will find anyone who will say they are (except outhouse assholes), nor do they have to be in order for him to say he was “reasonably” in fear for his life.
However, his injuries are NOT consistent with what he said happened. And there is his big problem. His injuries are not consistent with what he said happened.
As far as in fear for their life – the other problem is Trayvon is dead, but AFAIC, he had as much if not more reason to be in fear for his life with some weirdo looking at him and following him in the dark and in the rain.
As strange as Z thought it was that Trayvon was out walking in the dark and rain, it makes TOTAL sense to me that it was even STRANGER to Trayvon that someone was following him in the dark and rain.
GZ was trained in MMA and had a gun. Of course Trayvon had no way of knowing that, but Z knew.
So you tell me – who was the one who was in fear for their life?
Anyway, my point got lost in all of that – which is that his injuries are not consistent with his story and therefore, his story is just a story.
Bye-bye GZ
I could not agree more. I am SOOOOO SICK of hearing about Zimmerman and his “head bashing”. It didn’t happen.
I wonder, can the ME who is a pathologist talk about the injuries as you have above? I am really hoping Bernie puts his own medical expert on to tell the jury exactly what you are saying– no way he had his head bashed repeatedly on concrete.
Yes, Bernie can to that. If O’Mara objects, JN is more likely to sustain the objection for the same reasons Bernie should have objected- but did not object when the PA established severe swellings on GZ’s head based solely on pictures of lumps that are part of GZ’s natural head shape and thereby transforming illusion into evidence.
But FIRST Bernie has to realize that the prosecution is letting the defense get away with a lot of abomination. I am not sure that BDLR even realizes that he brought some folks close to heart attack yesterday. Those on twitter can tweet Professor article and ALL THE COMMENTS to Nathalie Jackson, Crump and Parks or email it to them. They are better positioned to get Corey/BDLR to pay attention.
As a medical pro, your common sense insights translated for us non-med folks most surely will be mirrored and loudly echoed on the stand. I think your message will resonate with jurors.
(Instead of “losing his mind” from pain, Fogen was busy directing his neighbor on what, exactly, to tell his wife about the killing, and chatting away about what caliber gun he used. Damning.)
How do you repeatedly slam a bald man’s head onto the ground without tearing his ears halfway off?
So far, none of the witnesses who have testified saw any head slamming .. . it’ s quite likely that that part of Fogen’s story has been disproven.
We will see justice for Trayvon!
Hoodies up!
One of the more intriguing aspects of this case is that George Zimmerman, an unemployable ne’er-do-well and registered “democrat,” suddenly became a darling of the Conservative Right ?
I spend a lot of time on an investment forum that happens to be dominated by ideological conservatives. When this story broke last year there was an initial, bipartisan assumption on that forum that the murder was just another example of vigilantism gone bad. You know, the obvious assumption. Then our president said “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon”, and all hell broke loose. And that is precisely when this murder became an ideological football for the fringe.
The media won’t touch this however.
If fogen had murdered a White kid Trayvon’s age, these same conservatives would be highlighting his Hispanic roots in an all out attempt to have him convicted.
Racial politics can make for strange bedfellows, but lets call it what it is.
You are perfectly correct. The NRA jumped on board with guns blazing, not caring one whit that a child was murdered, all because they are afraid someone will take those guns away from them if fogen is convicted. They are willing to condone murder for that, and it is vile.
Please cite your source for this “information”.
It’s my perception from what I read that the NRA has actually distanced itself from this case because it’s not a classic case of self-defense.
However, lots of gun owners are certainly involved in supporting Fogen and self-defense with firearms.
@Dave, do a Google search for “NRA supports [fogen]”.
@TwoSides. Yes, they are not as vocal anymore, but I don’t know if that is the reason.
Yes I remember that because I used to participate on conservative forums. They were largely ignoring the case until Obama made that comment. They will not let it go, they continually use that phrase in a way that they think is witty over and over again to highlight what they think is some hipocracy on the part of Obama.
Yes of course this is a case of vigilantism. What if Zimmerman were white and Trayvon were white? I would have the same outrage because it is unconscionable. The child is dead because some creepy stranger decided they were an “asshole who always gets away.” The American right has decided to defend factually WRONG actions because they THINK they can stick it to Obama and Al Sharpton. This to me is misdirected anger because Sybrina Fulton ASKED for help from Sharpton and Jackson. They weren’t “race huslting.”
Another contradiction is this almost deification of police on the part of the American right. Here we have Zimmerman, a man who has been ARRESTED for assault on a peace officer and they defend him. Zimmermen has an arrest history and on his myspace page he spoke of how he “beat a case.”
I am not some gun grabbing nut but wingnuts are going to make me join the Brady campaign. Zimmerman’s attorney O’mara spoke at an NRA event. What is wrong with these people? Why jump to the side of Zimmerman? Is he a typical gun owner? Why not defend the victim as they usually do. Why didn’t say, “If only Trayvon had a legal gun he would have been able to defend himself from the creepy stalker.” Oh I guess black American citizens don’t have 2nd amen rights.
If American conservatives are saying it’s hunting season on black kids they have made a grave error. After the election they worried that Obama’s goal was to permanently destroy the GOP. He doesn’t need any help they are doing it themselves- ie. their reaction to Rubio in the immigration debate.
They hate black people so much they defend a child molester.
I’m so angry I forgot to call him Fogen.
The event that O’Mara addressed was sponsored by the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizen’s Committee tokeep and Bear Arms, two closely associated groups that tend to regard the NRA as unprincipled, conciliatory sellouts.
It seems they don’t think black Americans should have Second Amendment rights or the right to own property or the right to vote.
BTW, Trayvon was too young to carry a gun in FL. Big brave CAC knew the kid he targeted probably was not armed.
Darling of the right-wing PLUS Jeralyn and Dershowitz.
There’s something other than the ordinary going into this.
Actually more ordinary that I wanted to admit. I try to see the best in people so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I have been re reading all my old black American history material and it seems some things NEVER CHANGE.
Let us pray that THIS tragedy is the catalyst that finally creates the change that ends and heals the past 20,000 years of inhumane persecution, destruction, and oppression. Aho!
In court Rachael maintained consistency as to the events of the night of February 26, 2012:
Thank Professor Leatherman for the update above. You remind us that this case is about key elements that come out, not every second of trial time.
Thanks for summarizing the important elements of the day verses the minutia of each question and answer, that I know I get caught up into all the time.
Let me first say this… My faith is in God not States 3! I know God is not a Liar but know Fogen is! We all have our opinions and thank God that we do because that is how great ideas come from.
I don’t know BDLR, John Guy, or Richard Mantei to talk badly about them or in their work ethics. I know that BDLR is from Cuba and was stowed on a boat at 4 years by his parents to have a better life and is excellent lawyer who is considered an exceptional prosecutor by the FBI. that John Guy is an assistant State Attorney. You would think they would know what they were doing right? I believe that BDLR is doing the best he has with what he has. Here is the link of the witness list in PDF but I don’t know if it is in how they will call it…
Click to access zimmerman-george-prosecutions-redacted-discovery-list.pdf
Again, I know we all want fast results, but court is not like we want at the time we want it. This is not acting but a real case with real lives, each case is different. This case is not going to happen in 30 minutes or 1 hour as most TV law shows happen. We support the victim who has been gunned down in this case plus the family who are also the victims in this case. We all know the prosecution has to show proof of burden of their charges in this case. Lawyers have a protocol to follow in a court of law and the Judge is the one that can sustain or overrule on an objections. I always remember if the prosecution doesn’t object to something the Defense has said or done, then I know he will come back to a re-direct with a good cause so it will not be a reptitive situation. We can’t expect the state to object to everything the Defense says or does. I want the State to present their case… I want the State to give the Defense an inch so they can take a mile so when it is the Defense turn to present their case… They won’t have anything to give… because they already have presented everything. Then Fogen will have no choice to take the Stand so the State can tear him a new a$$hole. If the Jury doesn’t see through all of this.. It wasn’t the State’s fault… it is how the Defense manipulated the Court and got away with it. You also remember this is the Judge’s court… and then yet… this court also has another Judge. I don’t know about everybody else. I am not here to Judge the Prosecution team but I am here to see Fogen be Judged! I am here to give my support for Trayvon Martin and his Family!
@smokeegyrl thank for the earlier comment my step daughter was torn up afterwards she had been his friend since they were 10 yrs old. She’s a good girl honor student, she wouldn’t have a thug for a friend her dad would kill her. He was just a kid doing & trying things that kids do & try & He was gunned downed by some police wanna be. I’m with you I trust and believe that God will handle him, and I pray that God guide the state in the right direction. I can see God from the beginning moving i nearly bust a gut laughing when an all woman jury was picked I told my daughter who said ” oh God mom there are no blacks on the jury.” I told my baby ” I”ll pick mothers over color any day.”
I’ve been saying that all along, Tee. The nightmare jury for the defense is a jury of mothers. Next worse for the defense: teachers, or other people with experience with teens. Race is less important.
I am so sorry for your stepdaughter, and for Trayvon’s other friends. Losing a friend at such a young age, and so violently, is a shattering experience.
@ Mollyk
Thanks😊
What about color on the mothers?
Smokegryl:
First, I did not see yesterday as bad as Tuesday. So I was surprised to see people upset.
But I think you hit on an important point, which is faith versus fear. Personally, I do not think people’s comments are meant to demoralize. I do not think the people commenting have ill-will towards the Martin family, the prosecution or the members of this blog. I think people are scared. I know personally, I had to examine the faith versus fear with regards to this case. There is so much about this case and how it speaks to daily living that is scary and yet reality for so many.
There are so many people who have invested so much to getting justice for Trayvon. It’s personal for so many. The way this happened in and of itself is scary. You send a black male child to the store – an action that is so innocuous and that child doesn’t make it back home. And not only that, there are people defending the killer. That is scary. And this case drove it home.
I think they are fearful not malicious.
Perhaps instead of insulting people because of their fear, perhaps it would be best to remind everyone what the good book says:
“God has not given us a spirit of fear, but one of power and love and a sound mind”
I don’t see how name calling of people diminishes the fear. I don’t see name calling as coming from a position of power or love and it doesn’t add to creating sound minds.
Fear is negative energy. Name calling doesn’t diminish that, it just adds to the negativity. Perhaps try pulling your brother or sister out of their fear versus alienating them would be a better approach. Whether they are on this blog or not, they still have the fear and that fear is being sent out into the universe.
Just my two cents.
Respectfully,
Sophia
Are these one of the many fears most have? Was there fear that brought us waiting to see if Fogen would be arrested then a trial date now to hear the evidence presented by the state? When June 10th came… Did we all wanted to hear the word “Guilty” read on that day not 4-6 weeks later? Did none of us want him out on bail or we wanted him to sit in jail to think about what he had done? Did we have fear that someone was going to take him out and we couldn’t get law justice? Did we have fear that the Defense is going to manipulate the court system or have fear of Blind Justice? Do we have fear he is going to walk?
Fear is such a great overwhelming anxiety emotion that can actually take over people lives. Fear can be good but it can also destroy. I want the fear of survival vs the fear of destruction. We can be our own worst enemies.
My fav:
“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops”!
“I do not think the people commenting have ill-will towards the Martin family, the prosecution or the members of this blog. I think people are scared.”
They certainly don’t have good will, doncha think?
IMO, anything that is not of love, is of fear.
Therefore, to fear someone is to not love them.
Trayvon Martin’s family & lawyers have been treated absolutely despicably since day one.
The SPD did not use Trayvon’s phone to immediately notify his family. It’s my understanding that Tracy Martin only learned of his son’s death when he called the police to report him missing.
Some Zimmerman supporters made money off the death of Trayvon Martin in the most despicable fashion: by selling shooting targets of him to gun ranges.
The day after Zimmerman was finally arrested, three black men in Tulsa, OK were randomly murdered simply for being black.
Fear is deadly. Love is not. To fear someone, is indeed to have ill will.
“Fear is such a great overwhelming anxiety emotion that can actually take over people lives. Fear can be good but it can also destroy. I want the fear of survival vs the fear of destruction. We can be our own worst enemies.”
Smokeegryl: I agree with you.
Very incisive and intelligent. Thanks for the link.
Welcome, I happened to be on twitter and saw that it’s being posted by others and wanted to share.
Brilliant
Not sure it is actually brilliant, just more like common sense, which the defense is either totally lacking or thinks the prosecution is lacking. Of course that is their story so they do have to try to prove it, even if they can’t because it just ain’t possible the way he told it – no matter which version you go by.
Excellent article. I had theorized before that Fogen may have run into a tree. I have done it before. Very hard to see branches in the dark when there are no leaves on them. He could have raised his head up directly into a tree branch that had sharp points.
When I think of Fogen claiming he had his head bashed into concrete, I think of the movie Friday where Debo gets knocked out with a brick by Craig. You don’t just get up and walk away from something like that. A stupid kid in Florida stomped on a girl’s head twice and put her into a coma, just awful, but that proves how deadly concrete is to a human head.
I always said a tree did the head and recoil did his nose. I think Pirhana mom agrees as well. I KNOW those didn’t come from being beaten MMA style and having his heads smashed on concrete.
Thank you!
So THAT’S what he was tussling with up by the T!
Something just occurred to me. GZ began preparing himself to be an efficient NW in his eyes. He set up the meeting with the HOA. He befriended Wendy D. with the SPD to establish his NW program. His next step was to make sure he had the skills to physically handle a “suspect” if he needed to.
Please note: the MMA aerobic activity on GZ’s part began around that same time, in the fall of 2011. GZ’s methodical approach to being the neighborhood hero included his need to acquire “super-hero” skills in the ability to subdue a “suspect” if needed. If fact, his confidence was quite great when his “suspects” were teens, hence his 311 call earlier in the month of February, 2011 when his wife admonished him about attempting to go after the subject of that call. Little did that previous young man know that GZ’s wife saved him from meeting Trayvon’s fate.
What happened to our Trayvon was going to happen to someone eventually. GZ was preparing himself for it, priming himself for it, and itching for it. He wasn’t going to let any more of those a**holes get away. He knew how to cause immediate howl-producing pain through grappling techniques. He knew he could take “this kid.”
Excellent observation, diary.
Good job!
When the new HOA guy became President , he asked for permission to start a NW the next day. I’m guessing he was shot down by the former HOA pres.
I’m thinking George was not happy with the city of Sanford HOA agreement on patrolling. The HOA Pres mentioned what the Police could do or not do. 911/NEN calls were okay, routine patrolling was not I think.
So this fool got it in his head he could play cop.
I can not believe the HOA allowed the renter to have this role to and never considered weapons in a heavy CCW state such as Florida. Thoughtless people.
if they knew he was carrying and a renter would they still have approved?
I’m not sure if renter would be the proper term. People have been saying he was delinquent on rent so that would make him a squatter who was days from eviction. Maybe he thought capturing a neighborhood burglar would earn him some more time to get the rent money. When you are an unemployed psycho like Fogen you have plenty of time to play cops-and-robbers.
squatter? wow! Priceless, oh that should come out in court
Why do you think they knew he was carrying?
I do not think he started taking MMA classes in August 2011. That is when he informed his PA of it, when he was drug-seeking sleeping pills. He was ASKING for them, she was not suggesting them, and he needed an excuse. He may have been on them already and wanted a higher dose or maybe they were new, but doctors have to justify giving someone sleeping pills or raising the dosage and fogen knew that.
We have to go by her record as to what he told her.
Actually, in the 17th State Discovery, it is shown that the Kokopelli’s Gym document was signed up a year earlier than what you state (10/07/2010). So, GZ had 16+ month of training.
Exactly and a year later he brings up taking MMA classes looking for drugs.
GZ’s active interest in this N/W and his criminal justice education does not line up with his dis-interest being in the “Citizen on Patrol” program offered by Ms. Dorival(sp). Does it?
It most certainly would have looked good on a resume.
Seems he would have lept at that opportunity.
I was shocked to hear that little tid-bit.
If fogen’s jeans and jacket were “more” wet on the back and had grass on them, why did only the toes of his boots still have wet stains and grass at the station?
Exactly, Judy.
His heels had nothing on them.
Neither did his head…no grass stuck to the blood.
GZ was wearing a water proof or water resistant poly- shell jacket. They do not absorb water, it beads off. GZ was also standing in the rain for over a minute before Smith arrived. If he was on top of TM at the end as everyone says rain would have been hitting him the back. Its bulldunk.
I would not take seriously most of the TV pundit lawyers opinion.
This is the era of ratings. Most will say anything to get those ratings.
That is exactly right. They say what will get more air time.
Nancy Grace seems to be very against Fogen right now which I really like. She was almost crying the other day. She sympathizes with Trayvon’s family because she lost her fiancé years ago to gun violence.
yes, she’s the only pundit I’ve heard on the internet , not having Cable TV at home anymore I don’t get to hear that crap.
She does not believe in fantastic tales that’s for sure.
She also stated clearly & loudly as FACT that she is familiar with the kel-tec 9 and that IT HAS an EXTERNAL SAFETY…..Which we know is bullshit….
I have no faith or interest in the talking heads on these news programs……I would not doubt if they draw straws before a trial to see who will support which side in the trial……..They have no personal interest in it other than the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ the shows bring in…..
How can they have debate or discussion if they do not have opposing sides……..
@mountainmanpat
Very interesting. I was just reading a website about that Kel-Tec PF-9.
1. The PF-9 tends to get caught-up in clothing when a shooter tries to remove it in a hurry.
2. Shooting the PF-9 creates considerable recoil: the equal and opposite reaction that occurs when the explosion inside the gun sends the bullet forwards.
3. Small guns are more likely to malfunction than their bigger brothers.
@ Dennis…..Your #2 is why I believe that the injury to fogens schnoz was from the recoil of the pistol……..Even more so if he didn’t have his arm fully extended……Reviews on the k-t 9 say that the recoil is bad enough to make it uncomfortable for target shooting…..
At around $250.00 out the door it’s nothing more than a Saturday night special….
Next question…..Why hasn’t it been brought up in court that it was ACTUALLY SHELLIES GUN…..NOT fogens?
@mountainmanpat
Yep. This article called it the poor man’s carry pistol.
@mountainmanpat
That does make perfect sense. If he is on top of Trayvon holding Trayvon’s shirts with his left and and aims the gun at the shirt with his right hand, it would seem that the rear of the gun would probably be around 6 or so inches from his face. Pistols should be fired with two hands for maximum stability. Seems like that Kel-Tec pistol has some kick for a sub compact.
She said she is also very sympathetic because she has a son.
The girl on the left of Don West’s ice cream photo is Rachel West:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelkwest
Last night after reading so many negative posts, and petty comments about the way that BDLR was handling this trial, I sat and wrote a long and extremely critical post directed at and toward some of the more vocal non supporters of the Prosecution team. I decided to wait until this morning to post that series of comments. While I lay in bed wasting another two hours of my life attempting to sleep, it occurred to me that perhaps these folks with the negative attitudes were possibly right and we should just all text, e-mail and snail Mz. Corey with our request that the charges against the poor little Fogdoit be dropped and he be compensated by the state for the inconveniences that he has been subjected to! While we are at it, because the heroic defense team of Mr. MOM and Mr. West, have had to put aside their entire lives and income for a year or so, we should also commend and compensate them with a large sum of money as well! Perhaps we should also give a large tax break to all those people who loved justice so much that they gave money to the defense fund! See, isn’t that simple, and it solves all the problems that too many of you on here have pointed out, well except for one simple little problem, and that is it fails to provide justice for a barely 17 year old child that was murdered in cold blood by an adult with anger problems, but then again too many people on here seem to have lost sight of that!! Too bad they no longer actually want justice for Trayvon, and instead only want to satisfy their own wishes and desires…
It got that bad, did it? I fell a sleep while the PA was on the stand. By the time I woke up, there were too many comments to go through.
I was disappointed when the prosecution didn’t appear to have done much with the clubhouse videos. But maybe they were just entering it into evidence, and we will get more on that.
I think it is good the prosecution is putting the less prosecution friendly witnesses on the stand. They shouldn’t give the defense a chance to make it look like the prosecution is trying to hide stuff.
I think the prosecution layed a solid foundation, especially with their star witness, Rachel. Rachel made Trayvon real. She gave him a voice. I saw a tweet commenting how one of the older jurors, had her hand on her mouth and looked in horror, when they were playing the 911 call again with Jenna on the stand.
That is something note worthy. This was not the first time the jury listened to this tape, but it was the first time after Rachel was Trayvon’s voice.
I thought the testimony by the blond woman was very touching and full of emotion. If anyone listened to that testimony with an unbiased open mind, it is hard to not believe Trayvon was the one in trouble. She saw Fogen murder Trayvon and was completely devastated. Never heard a 9/11 call that depressing in my life.
Yes, yes, Dennis!
Jane’s testimony and her 911 call are both very valuable to the prosecution. I teared up again when I listened to it. I think she must be very relatable for most of the jurors. The defense can’t claim she was influenced by the younger Trayvon photos. She called Trayvon a young boy on the 911 call, I think that is really damaging. O’Mara looked like a fool, trying to convince the jury, that it was GZ who sounded like a child.
Jane’s 911 call is also a great source to establish a timeline. She gave live commentary about everything that was happening immediatly following the shot. We used her 911 call to help us establish the right start time for the clubhouse videos.
The trial is progressing well. Some highlights:
BDLR has established that WRESTLING, ROLLING, TUSSLING occurred = NO head slamming or punching.
BDLR has established the REAL location of the struggle = NOT at the T where gz said everything occurred after he was punched and fell down backwards.
BDLR has established that W6 only witnessed 10 seconds of the struggle and NOT the final moment when gz shot Trayvon.
BDLR has established that gz was on top when he fired the shot.
BDLR has established that gz was NOT on top of Trayvon spreading out Trayvon’s arms.
BDLR has readied his future use of the clubhouse surveillance tapes by both establishing Ofc. Tim Smith’s route + the 18 minutes “off” of the camera tapes.
BDLR has established that Trayvon was being pursued and was trying to get away from gz. Trayvon when finally approached by gz, asked “Why are you following me for? and then “Get off. Get off” NOTE: gz has absolutely NO ONE to support his version of the “meet up” of the two of them.
.
I feel that our group’s various discussions and posts last night were very “healthful” in that all of us not only analyzed the ups and few downs of the first week of the trial but also had a chance to emotionally express why this case is so important to us as individuals and to our nation.
The media is impotent = the jury is NOT listening to the media.
It don’t mean a thing if you don’t have the jury listening…..doo wah do wah.
That is why I am happy this jury is sequestered. The trial should only last 3-4 weeks so they should be fine. It was a bad idea to sequester the Casey Anthony jury though. That case took forever. The jurors didn’t want to deliberate it anymore and just wanted out. Jurors are almost always sequestered in high profile cases like this because there is a high probability they will talk about the case or hear something on the news.
Exactly. My advice to everyone who feels down. Don’t listen to the media. Watch the trial on the NBC stream, that one is without stupid commentary. The media is stupid, or ignorant or is just trying to generate ratings. You won’t learn anything of value, by listening to them.
Don’t visit GZ friendly sites. It just makes you angry and sad. They are not representative of the general population.
The prosecution may miss stuff, they also may just want to get unfriendly witnesses of the stand as quickly as possible. They can revisit some of the subjects with witnesses that will be more reliable.
I agree, and that is why I’m so grateful for this forum. We have circumvented their influence.
@ SG2
“You better speak! A person can stalk & chase you down, shoot you dead & claim they were in fear of their life and get away with it? I have such incredible sadness tonight.”
DON’T BE SAD, SG! An aggressor cannot claim self-defense. What GZ did makes him the aggressor. The evidence entered SO FAR establishes that. Dee Dee, the NEN-call on 26-2-2012 (and prior to that date), etc. irrefutably establish that GZ (a) pursued Trayvon while Trayvon ran from him, (b) caught up with Trayvon and confronted him (“what are you doing around here?” and then the “bump”). That’s the classic definition of the aggressor. O’Mara and West are IMO concentrating way too much on the “photos of injuries” to GZ’s detriment. The Judge MUST instruct the jury that the aggressor cannot claim self-defense – REGARDLESS of how “beat-up he got”! NONE of the few exceptions to this rule has been claimed or established by the defense (probably because such might create more problems for GZ given his numerous other statements). That – from the defense’s point of view – is one of the most essential aspect of the case the defense has missed.
There are other key aspects of the case the defense is missing and ONLY GZ can personally bring into the equation to factor and play any role, e.g. what was GZ’s position when the fatal shot was fired? Etc. the evidence known to the jury RIGHT NOW is that GZ was on top of Trayvon when he shot and killed him (“the person on top was the person who got up after the shot”). This will not change. On the contrary, it will be solidified by ballistics and forensics. I think the trial is going well. I can understand how you feel. But I will also tell you that lawyers/prosecutors are human. I do not expect Bernie to be at the top of his game every second. Sometimes you don’t even realize that you have made a (fatal) mistake until you are under the shower the following morning reliving what happened during the trial the day before, and you go like: “oh sh*t, I should have said/done this and that, etc.”. The mistakes made so far by the prosecution are normal and do not even come close to being fatal, while the three other most powerful evidence (ballistics, forensics and GZ’s web of lies) have not come in – yet.
As we move on, remember these words of Mr. Guy: “The medical examiner will take you through the path of the bullet. It [the bullet] did not go up. It did not go down. It did not move to the right. It did not move to the left. No, it went STRAIGHT [i.e. at no angles] down the middle”. This is the crown of the case against GZ. There is no evidence more powerful than this. This evidence and GZ’s description of “what happened” are mutually exclusive. This evidence AT THE VERY LEAST removes GZ from underneath Trayvon when the fatal shot was fired, essentially terminates GZ’s self-dense stories and demonstrates that the prosecution has – beyond reasonable doubt – met its burden of proof that GZ did not act in self-defense (because GZ’s claims could scientifically NOT have taken place). So, take heart, my friend. GZ will go leaving town soon. Forget not that the prosecution will make more mistakes along the way. Be prepared for that. Hugs.
GZ will be leaving town soon ….. (was meant)
I’m sure he will cut his GPS and flee to mexico. If he is convicted, I don’t see him marching himself into the court for sentencing.
If he’s found guilty, he’ll be immediately taken into custody, not out on bond like he is now.
I can not wait for the day he is cuffed up by the little short suspicious looking Black court officer and walked to a jail cell to wait out his life sentence. All the while wanting to call the NEN line on that officer because “he does not know what his deal is” I had to kill the innocent teen that begged for his life because he tried to get away from the CAC that followed him with no clue as to why!
I am sure Trayvon would have really enjoyed that NBA game the night his life was taken away. After all, Miami did become the champions the last 2 years. He was not allowed to do that because Fogen did not value his life. He is cold without feeling and he will pay the price.
Thank You , especially for bringing back what Mr. Guy said,,,,
Rachel was brilliant. I loved it when she touched the microphone to demonstrate what she heard, when she said “someone bumped Trayvon”.
I, too, thought her tap on the microphone was great.
Thank you searching mind.
A straight shot. Can’t wait for MOM/West to demo that
@SearchingMind –
Thanks, Searcher – needed that! Wonderful analysis.
(Hugs always nice, too.)
forgot to add to the above..and when I hear straight from to back shot and the killer says Trayvon sat up and spoke..
I know I’m done GUILTY
If I was a juror I’d cut to the meat of the situation,….. who is that wail coming from a grown man versed in MMA with a gun setting out on a mission to stop those assholes that always look suspicious and go out the back gate and get away or a kid visiting… talking on the phone trying to get home…… I’d want the person responsible for pulling the trigger to tell me the story so I can judge his credibility,
And as a juror as soon as I start hearing inconsistencies and I see how spry the defendant was the next day and watch him bound up those stairs in the police station and do that unbelievable recreation and hear that exemplar and see those over grown knuckle bandages on scrapes that stopped bleeding the same night a few minutes after the deadly shot…
I’m finding the killer guilty..
The news article I linked to above has pictures of both sides of Fogen’s hands too. No defensive wounds, dirt, grass…anything. The blood at the top of his upper lip is also coming from a very tiny wound at the tip of his nose. It shows clear as day that he isn’t bleeding from the nostrils. That proves Trayvon didn’t hit him in the nose. My guess is he nicked or scraped his nose on something.
Dennis I think this exactly why the prosecution wanted that picture in … it shows just as you stated NO blood from NOSTRILS just the pricks on the killers NOSE are bleeding . And the PA should have found blood in his nose cavity
These are the pictures I would have put up when I questioned the PA if I was Bernie. I would have left the there the entire time I was questioning her
Those pix were taken about 11.45 pm, after he’d had at least one unaccompanied trip to the bathroom to clean up. Serve him right for doing so.
Fred,
Is there way to have a separate post for open comments? I can’t go through 2,000+ comments.
I want to have discussions about trial and evidence but I feel many detour that ability.
I feel the comments I have seen here, I can see on twitter. I want to discuss the trial. I hope you received my donation.
Thank you.
I disagree. We are making great comments here that need to be heard.
It would be nice to also have a page to recap the evidence.
I think a new thread for Saturday would be nice. 🙂
Am in the process. The topic is about building a closing argument.
@ you all have thoughtful comments
I do agree we all have comments and feelings that need to be heard.
I get lost in all the comments while watching the live trial. For example, before I registered I’ve wanted to comment about something during recess and when I come here I found myself so behind on all the comments. Some posters have made similar statements regarding slow page loading.
I know I am late to the game; however, I have been reading for months. I posted something yesterday but I don’t think anyone noticed.
J4TMinATL
while witnesses are on, people are writing comments about what they’re seeing. Kind of like shouting at the4 TV, only in writing. Very hard to follow, unless they quote the bit they’re talking about.
It’s only in recesses or at the end, on the daily summary blog like this one, that there’s any real discussion, like about strategy or evidence to come etc.
If you want to comment in recess, just go ahead, don’t expect it to tie in with what was said just before.
@ HereslookingatYou:
“Is that wail coming from a grown man versed in MMA with a gun setting out on a mission to stop those assholes that always look suspicious and go out the back gate”
Excellent
I also want to see the external video footage from the cameras in the parking lot. I want to see if those sunglasses hanging from his shirt, were on his face, perched on his “broken” nose, when he gets out of the car and hangs them on the front of his shirt. Going by usual behavior of people wearing sunglasses, I don’t believe he took them off until he entered the building. I want the jury to see evidence of fogen wearing his sunglasses on his “broken” nose. No one can convince me he was just wearing them on his shirt, and hadn’t had them on his face.
Don’t forget about the video taken during the stress test interview where he rubs his nose very hard right before they get started with his 1st story!
That’s a gem and I would love for the jury to see that.
I think we have to look at this like a book. There is a beginning, a middle and an ending. Every witness saw pieces of what happened. What they all have in common though is that they each hear arguing, raised voices, well before the tussling and before the shot. What they don’t see is head banging, What they don’t hear is you gonna die tonight MF. What they don’t see is fist flying, but they all see GZ stand up and walk away. This is very important because there was no pause as in trying to remove Trayvon off of him. He didn’t say that Trayvon fell forward he said he sat up. He didn’t account for the falling position. He only said “I somehow got from under him, Then spread his arms out.” This is our key, our opening. GZ only said this to account for him getting up so quickly and people seeing him on top of Trayvon. That’s why he said it but we know that Trayvon was face down with hands underneath right after he shot him thanks for the pics buddy. The arguing occurred because he wanted to detain Trayvon. They didn’t tussle 40ft, Trayvon probably told him to F off & that he was going home. Trayvon started walking in the direction of home & GZ grabbed him to stop him That’s when the tussling began. Each man fought for dominate positioning, Trayvon had it for a moment pinning GZ down yelling for help the two helps everyone here first. This is when Mr. Good walks out and tell them to stop he’s calling the police. GZ regains The dominate position by using his MMA skills and he grabbed Trayvon sweat shirt Trayvon sees the gun the help turn to desperately screams then we hear the NO as he press his gun to Travon sweat shirt aimed made sure he didn’t shoot his left hand and shot.
Great summary! I don’t think TM told him to “F off” — I think it’s clear that have an ear witness (RJ) to the beginning of the confrontation (which is supported by phone records): The CAC who had been following by car and on foot confronts TM with “What are you doing around here?!” and then a bump and the sound of TM’s earphone having been dislodged on the ground. The last words that DD heard from Trayvon were “Get off! Get off!”
BTW, in one of CAC’s previous arrest records (when he assaulted a plainclothes police officer), he confronted the officer with ANGRY WORDS and then SHOVED the officer. Sound familiar?
I think I am going to give West a pass on the photo. I have no idea what he said to his daughters,but I don’t think he told them to post that stupid pic.Those girls look old enough to know better. We all know you can’t control your kids no matter how much you want to. Lord knows I have tried and its not working.
You are better than I, I give west no pass he obviously was laughing and talking with them about the case….
Who has west given a pass to ? he has tried to trash dead Trayvon and anybody that supports him..
West is an ass and his daughters are too.
I wouldn’t give West a pass. He posed for the picture and his attitude carried over to his daughter. All things considered, the whole crypt keeper family appears to be ignorant.
I don’t give West or O’Mara a pass for anything at all after they spread the rumor that Trayvon Martin beat up a homeless guy.
Nor I. The defense crossed the Rubicon with that stunt. They serve every piece of poop that gets flung at them since them.
West is an ass cracker and his daughters are sickening.
But strictly considering his tie it must have happened one day before the started to martyr Rachel. But the dadkilledit caption is highly interesting, nevertheless. Dad edits a killing?
Oh they no doubt gave that idiot a couple of high fives and there was some discussion about the case with them. Him, MOM and GZ will never get any passes from me! The way they continue to lie and cause more pain and anguish to Sybrina and Tracy, no effing way!
He should have taught his offspring better! He apparently is failing with their integrity as well.
There will be no passes!
I’m not giving West a pass. He couldn’t keep Fogen’s mouth closed and it seems he can’t keep his own daughter’s trap closed.
Not only did his daughter refer to the witness as “stupid”, but she also linked to #wekilledit. Just sickening. I hope West backs out or is disbarred for this crap.
The ice cream trip was after West’s opening statement with his stupid knock-knock joke. They were celebrating his recovery from his stupidity. Unfortunately, the timing of the photo makes it look like they are celebrating his torture of Rachel. I also think celebrating his recovery from stupidity is probably a bit premature.
It is clearly obvious the crypt keeper did not recover from stupidity. The stupidity carried over to West’s 5 plus hours of questioning Rachael.
If West, a.k.a. Eeyore (I know that is mean to Eeyore who is adorable) thinks he pulled his opening statement out of the toilet he is dumber than I thought. He in no way improved his demeanor, his personality, or his case during that opening.
BK, LOL!
Only if his daughters get on the stand, and someone gets to insult them for 6 hours, while the world is watching.
Omg I soooo disagree!!!
A black kid was killed walking home from the store. By conflating youthful immaturity with thuggery, West is trying to justify the murder.
Trayvon didn’t get a pass. Nor should the cruel and hateful West girls.
The fool is depicted holding the phone. No pass.
The only pass I’ll give Mr. Waste is a pass into hell — front of the line, no-ice-cream-cone section.
The media is a joke and can’t even follow the evidence that was released by the State. I found this statement on a news article.
“A responder at the scene said Martin’s knuckles were bloodied, suggesting he had injured Zimmerman with a punch;”
No blood mentioned in the report. No DNA of Fogen found on Trayvon’s hands or under his fingernails. This evidence is the dagger to the defense and proves Trayvon did not cause those injuries.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#
Know what picture bothers me the most of Fogen? The one of his face at the police station that night where he’s showing the right side of his nose. His eyes are closed in that martyr-style and I find the picture sickening. He looks like he’s saying: “big sigh, … ahhhhhhhh, I have been so injured, soooooooo hurt, sign, ahhhhhh, but I am staying strong and being a good Christian and a decent American anyway, in spite of my undeserved torment, ahhhhhh, oh the trials and tribulations …”
That picture makes me want to … nevermind. I think I better go eat a soft-serve ice cream cone.
Fortunately the defense is dealing with possibly doctored photos with no medical records to substantiate the injuries.
I doubt the jury will buy Fogen’s claim that he needed help from the neighbor to restrain Trayvon after he was shot. When a bullet nicks your heart and collapses one of your lungs, you are not going to be a threat. I’m sure Trayvon was unresponsive very soon after the fatal shot.
38:38 Fogen admits Trayvon did not pin his arms down so his hands were free to defend himself.
39:52 Fogen admits he wanted to stay close proximity to Trayvon; says nothing about looking for an address.
34:03 Fogen claims he did not know if he hit Trayvon with the bullet but contradicts himself around 41:43
Those are just some of the lies he will be exposed of at trial. A lot more is said on the article.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#
Fogen’s supporters seem to focus on grass stains on the front of Trayvon’s pants. It never occurred to them that he got the grass stains when Fogen rolled him over onto his stomache and straddled him while Trayvon struggled to breathe.
If Trayvon was really straddling him and leaning over Fogen, Trayvon would have fallen down on top of him. Fogen never would have been able to stand up immediately after shooting Trayvon if he was on bottom. Gravity says that if somebody that is leaning one way collapses, they will fall in the direction they are leaning.
Those idiot will say anything and even make stuff up. The latest and most ridiculous thing I have read recently is that Trayvon was 258lbs and 6 feet tall. The MMA story is about as old as can be especially now that we know that GZ was the MMA gun toting nutcase!
Alot of us have mixed feelings on how this day went for the prosecution, I know I do. I thought John was a moron and I am not sure if I heard right but did the defense want to impeach their supposed star witness?
I thought the lady with the translator the day before was a very strong witness for the prosecution. The other woman on the stand Thursday that got busted for twitter and facebook, I think she went home and called John and told him to be careful about what he says.
At the end of the day I think that the prosecution knows what its doing. I think that as more witnesses and experts take the stand it will all begin to fall into place.
I try to think of the Jury and if I was a woman on the Jury what would I be thinking. I am a mother and those cries on the one 911 call were without a doubt a young man crying for help. I would also be very sick of West and his idiotic behavior and snarky attitude, he is such an ass.
Just some of my thoughts
Have a great weekend all
Justice for Trayvon
Allison
The lady on HLN, can’t remember her name, says John Good contradicted himself in his testimony. Hopefully, the jury will not see him as reliable.
I hope they go after Jenna, she thinks she is all that.
I think it has already “begun” to fall into place. What’s happening now is that the real picture is emerging whereas it was a line drawing before. The jury will get it.
Exactly, Malisha!
“Like” link for dismissal of Don West
http://www.zimbio.com/George+Zimmerman/articles/bZRBapINAOR/George+Zimmerman+Defense+Attorney+Don+West
I hope so, not counting on it in Florida. While he’s out enjoying life the Jurors are cooped up with nothing to do. Man I would hate MOM for that.
Wouldn’t dismissal of Don West give the defense a reason for
delaying the trial?
no. o’mara is first chair attorney and the court would assume that their case is already prepared. i doubt west will be dismissed, but trial would continue without him.
Degraveegmail- better than dismissing him would be to fine the hell out if him! That is also an option. One that I prefer. 🙂
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
When Rachel told West “I don’t understand you” She was taking a shot at West. She attacked West’s mind and logic not the words. No one understood West.
Now as far as the West ice cream photo, I get the sense he was laughing at the system for buying this charade of a trial. He knows his client is guilty as hell and yet he’ll be famous for it.
yeah I’m probably dead wrong. I just sense he knows it’s a joke.
all and all I think West is a damm good lawyer much better than MOM. His flaw, it takes him way too long to get there. He’s like the good actors in the movies who play the bad guys, you hate him in the movies, but you know he can act.
But O’Mara sucks. Yeah “right”, “ok” responses by MOM means that’s not the answer I want. And a long pause means I got you. And I’m sick of the MOM strategy of let me put my words in your mouth. It’s so obvious.
@ Boyd
I mostly agree with you on all you said. O’Mara is a terrible lawyer-which is probably why he jumped at the chance to work on this high profile case for free. He was interested in exposure. West COULD be a good lawyer but he has no soul or sense of decency. He has shown us examples of this over and over.
Rachel Jeantel aka ‘Dee Dee’ could be an excellent lawyer because she has an excellent recall of dates. She is fearless and has a good sense of right and wrong. She reminds me of Barbara Jordan, who almost singlehandedly brought a sense of sanity to the Watergate Hearings. (Check Barbara Jordan out on youtube if you’re not familiar with her.) Rachel’s so called weaknesses can be corrected. Her vocabulary needs to be increased, but when her reading skills are enhanced, new words and their meanings will naturally follow. James Earl Jones (aka Dark Vadar) had a terrible speech impedient. Now he is the most sought after voice- over/commerical actor in the world.
Rachel Jeantel could be a great international civil rights lawyer because she is trilingual. If illiterate 80 and 90 year old senior citizens can learn to read and write, Rachel could be writing books on her life experiences very soon-and I will be first in line to buy one. With a little guidance, she could change the world.
Children are our future. An evil person killed Trayvon Martin and evil people support him. They killed Oscar Grant. They killed Jordan Davis. They killed Rekia Boyd. They killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones. And so many, many more. Let’s not let them destroy Rachel Jeantel.
I wish Rachel Jeantel a bright future.
Rachel Jeantel has already changed the world! Her unexpected and remarkable performance is absolute proof to me that God is indeed guiding these proceedings!
She is a modern day Diamond slaying Golieth (Go-lieth in hell, mofos!), a modern day Joan of Arc, an inspiration for her peers (and elders — me, for one!) in standing up to privileged persecutors and ignorant bullies.
She is a brilliant defender of the Truth and she did her beloved friend proud! She is my hero!
“West himself told a group of reporters at the courtroom: “As a parent, we’re not always proud of things our children do, but we love them anyway, and then we move on.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/28/george-zimmerman-s-lawyer-don-west-took-a-truly-shocking-selfie.html
Bullshit.
He knew the purpose of the “selfie” and he backed it but when it blew up in his face he, like his reprehensible dumbass client, tried to recast it in light of love for our children. “Sometimes our children do not make us proud but we love them anyway.” Bullshit Bullshit.
I remember being involved in a discussion group once among a group of would-be intellectuals discussing various stories in the Bible. Subject? Sodom and Gomorrah, of all things. One of the guys there wanted to re-cast the “Lot impregnated his two daughters in a cave after his wife was turned to a pillar of salt” into a nice story about how much the Hebrews (and please, puh-leez, these folks were in that cave long before the handing down of the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai so the “ancient Hebrews” were simply a Tribe, not a religion as it is known today, folks) LOVED THEIR CHILDREN. If you go “huh” to this, as I did, another explanation followed. The guy invoked the now famous Hannity line of loving one’s unborn children, saying: “If Lot had not impregnated his daughters there would be no more children, and he [Lot] loved his children too much to leave them unborn.”
I launched into a rant. Lot had welcomed strangers into his home (good) but when the neighbors came by to demand that the strangers be given to them to rape, Lot had begged them to take HIS DAUGHTERS INSTEAD! They neighbors had refused his kind offer (I can just hear, “everybody’s already HAD your daughters, fool, we want the new guys) and insisted upon violating the guests. Lot escaped with his wife and daughters (no mention is made of his sons) and sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed as Lots family crossed the wilderness. And then wife gets salted and daddy procreates in a cave? And THIS is because of love for one’s children?
OK, I’m off on a crazy tangent, I know. It’s one of my old standard crazy tangents. But “love for our children” is as much an acceptable explanation of Lot’s inappropriate (ahem!) behavior as it is of West’s (oh puh-leez) inappropriate comment and Fogen’s (gimme SHELTER!) idiotic self-congratulatory non-apology (“I’m sorry they had to bury their child; I already love my unborn children”) on Hannity.
OFFICIAL REQUEST TO ALL RACIST PUNKS: Puh-leez stop explaining your bad and unforgivable behavior by referencing your love for your children. We don’t CARE if you love your children or not. Just don’t kill anybody ELSE’s children. 10-4.
Malisha you’re delightful!
What he really said: “As a (white) parent, we’re not always proud of things our (white) children do…..”
Because when black youth do childish things…they are thugs. Unworthy of believability; unworthy of life.
The cruel hypocrisy is breath taking
BINGO!!!!
yup!
Yea like Trayvons’s parents….but no misbehaving kid deserves to die for walking home in the rain. He hurt the defense and can his statement be used in court during closing argument when BDLR is trying to explain the way his parents feel. Can he Say “Im sure, as a parent, they we’re not always prod of things their son did”
Yup yup.
Judy are you in Uptown? I worked Downtown at BOA for 10yrs and my work Zipcode was 75202 .
God’s Plan = unveil the hypocrisy.
the real photo is the one that says wekilledit. Don West did a a response to it.
Saying #wekilledit in response to West’s day in court for defending his client that killed Trayvon Martin. Just absolutely sickening…
I woke up at 4:30 AM CT to a lightening storm and couldn’t go back to sleep due to thinking about this case. My intense emotions aside, I wanted to make a few points.
Overall the prosecution had a good week. The jury is thankfully sequestered so they will not hear any of the negative news and racist hate speech trying to twist Fogen into the victim. Here is what they have- all the eye witnesses except for one put Fogen on top. Remember- the one on top is the one who got up. Jon Good was the only one who placed Fogen on top and he did that by color of the jacket. It’s been well established that it was very dark, and Good also thought he saw a DOG attack. Good himself admits to not being sure and only seeing the event for “seconds”. I think the jury will discount Good. ALL the witnesses reported a struggle that MOVED.
Much was made of Fogen’s injuries, but I now see why the prosecution introduced the photos during their CIC. There will be no “shock” by the defense. By the time the jury deliberates Fogan’s boo-boos will be a distant memory. The PA, imo was very helpful for the state. She told the jury how vascular the head is, as well as the nose, so even a superficial injury will bleed for a short time, which is what happened with Fogan.
Rachael was indeed a star witness. Her riveting five hour testimony will not be forgotten. She was believable for a multitude of reasons, and her challenges will end up bolstering her credibility. That is the reason she has been so viciously attacked by the haters like West and his vile spawn. She is the one who nailed West and we all know it. But what really matters is she established where Trayvon was, and what he was doing, and also what the creepy ass cracker was doing. The other evidence backs up her account including the video surveillance. Her testimony was a gold mine for the state. It proves Trayvon was not the aggressor, which is so important in this case. “That would be retarded, SIR”. Rachael armed only with her raw honesty NAILED it.
Now- what is to come. The unraveling of Fogen’s lies. That is also huge to this case, and the jury is going to have it demonstrated right before their eyes how Fogan lied his ass off to police. Let’s all be thankful that Fogen’s lies are etched in stone by way of his own statements to police and the media. His re-enactment will blow that jury away. They will know with out doubt that he is guilty.
Sorry for being so long winded but I also wanted to say that if anyone has any good ideas for Bernie I highly suggest sending him an email. He likely has someone reading them if he isn’t doing it himself. It never hurts to give somebody an idea that might now have. For example I am going to email him to suggest he ask if a person could scream if they had nasal blood going down their throat. At least twice now O’Mara has tried to bring that out- as if Fogen became scared for his life choking on blood. Hinkster4ever has great points about the dried blood. IMO nobody should be afraid to email Bernie, it can’t hurt and it just might help.
well I don’t know jack, but I do have a good imagination (I’m told)
Can the prosecution reverse the West-Rachel clash? meaning could Rachel’s affirmatives to West’s little buildup questions prove Zimmerman followed Trayvon until he was several feet from him.
You probably don’t know what I meant.
No sound of coughing or choking on blood, is that what you mean?
Yes! A person can’t scream and choke at the same time!
GREAT RECAP, Chi. Thanks much.
I am waiting for the forensic evidence. When the ballistics expert testifies that Fogen was on top I’ll be quite happy.
Yeah I agree with Malisha, it’s funny how so many different opinions can be formed from listening to testimony.
I would think most people know a PA is not skilled enough to give expert opinion on injuries. Her job was to read off the report and answer a few questions on what she did.
MOM looked bad IMHO attempting to re-write the medical report on the stand.
Rachel, well who do you trust The adult Fogen or the teenager who testified for 7 brutal hours?
And for John Good, He did not see the shot fired so his testimony is only to a part of a physical confrontation.
As if I’m watching a football game, and turn the TV off, only to find out later the team down by 10 points, scores 2 touchdown in 5 minutes and wins , I missed it all.
We know there was a physical confrontation.
But knowing who got up after the shot was fired and what position they were in is IMPORTANT in this case!!! That has meaning, Fogen was on top at the end , he’s a much bigger person by 56lbs so I would assume he gained the upper hand.
Having never been a big trial watcher, one concerning thing is if you have a witness who does not give a rat’s ass, they’ll agree to spin by a lawyer trying to change testimony. “yeah, it’s possible”
And didn’t you just love it when Goode told the MOM, courtroom and the world, “Well, you wanted a time so I gave you one” when MOM pressed him for a time frame from the 1st noise to the second. Amazing how he could not hear that loud screaming right outside his home, when Ms. Sudyka could hear it and so did every one else.
[comment deleted at rachel’s request]
PLEASE DELETE ABOVE – I just read upthread and it was one of our own who put this caption to it.
This is what I hate about this stuff. You never know if it is real or not.
Ughhhh
I like this caption better.
These witnesses are for the state but seems what they say are putting icing on Zimmermaens cake.They all seem to be agreeing to what he says .This trial and this defence has put all the blame on Trayvon when zimmerman profiled,stalked,hunted this kid down like a rabid animal and killed him.
No they are not. They’re just saying they saw a fight/wrestling. Well we all know there was one. NONE of them say Trayvon started it. Also they all say it was down near where the body ended up, NOT up at the T which is where GZ claimed it happened. And they all say there was arguing beforehand, while GZ claimed he was sucker punched with just “you got a problem homie?” ahead of it.
And don’t forget, we know GZ’s story from the news. The jury, officially at least, hasn’t heard his story yet. Now he has to invent yet another version that fits with what all the witnesses have said. Good luck to him with that. as Monday or Tuesday along come SIngleton and Serino to tell the jury the 7 versions he’s said SO FAR.
This jury is made up of MOTHERS. They know a bad lie when they hear one, they all had 3 year-olds denying knowledge of the missing chocolate cake with chocolate smeared all over them.
I know when I was growing up, my siblings and I thought that my mother had eyes in the front and back of her head and superwoman’s hearing. But we thought that my grandmother had eyes in the front, back, and sides of her head, could see through walls, and had superwoman’s hearing. 🙂
Aussie says, “Now he has to invent yet another version that fits with what all the witnesses have said. Good luck to him with that”.
I said all that note taking by GZ are his crib notes in event he takes the stand.
I think GZ cut his head on one of those small round water sprinklers in the grass while they were tussling and rolling on the grass. Remember someone heard them rolling on the grass. If someone hit their head on one of those it would cause a small laceration.
all of his head injuries look more consistent with that to me.
He could have also cut it while making contact with one of the jagged tree branches in the grass. I wish the State would have pressed the PA on that issue.
This is what i do not get about Jon Good’s testimony
1) He claims that they were lying on each other with their legs straight out on the grass
2) They stayed in the same position, but now they are on the concrete, and he did not see any positional changes? I dont see how they could just slide in the same position a few feet over
3) Jean, Manalo, Selma, all testify that GZ was on top and there were no positional changes, GZ shot Trayvon while on top, and then simply rose to his feet. Good’s testimony is the only one that does not match the other testimonies.
4) The only similarity with the other ladies, is they mentioned wrestling, and downward hand movements
Could Jon Good be lying, mistaken, or was there something missing?
I think he’s outright lying, look at his body language, look at how tight his mouth is his eyes tell the story. I believe he was impeached yesterday when Bernie asked him if he’s lying to him.
Looking at the way Good’s shoulders are shaped in his shirt, he also has a deformity or spends a lot of time in the gym. I wonder if it is an MMA gym… And, I wonder where fogen heard about this gym… And how interesting that Good said he does not have MMA experience, because he sure looks like he does to me. He sure seems to know a lot about it. I have never seen MMA, but he knows the terms and everything.
Good used his “rational thinking” to create his story. It’s hard to tell where what he actually saw stops and where his “rational thinking” takes over. When his “rational thinking” takes over, he’s speculating, but he’s not identifying it as such.
I agree. And the “rational thinking” included after the first shock following the shot, and realizing one of the two was dead, the fact that he overheard the surrender of Fogen. Now, what a relieve, the “victim” after all could help himself. So nothing was wrong with his running back in and locking or not locking the door first.
That is where Knox argument, that the initial statements are the most reliable is terribly wrong. Already the first statements by some of these witnesses were colored by post shot events. By seeing Fogen’s surrender.
But Jun’s point that no one asked him how they got from a to b, or 1 to 2 is a very vital observation.
Goode is downright lying. He was further out the house than 1 foot in and 1 foot out otherwise Jenna would not have been able to see him from her screened in patio and the white partition that separates the units. I went back and looked at the photos which I can now understand why BDLR keeps showing them from all the angles. There is now way that she could have seen him unless he was out in the grass which means he seen GZ kill Trayvon which is why his 911 call starts after the shot. He immediately knows the “Black guy is dead out there”. I also can be certain that he was about to say that the guy screaming for help is dead during that call. Too bad he did not finish that statement.
Does anyone find it strange that no one seems to actually know gz? I think Rachel’s statement “He by his father’s house” means gz was by TM’s father’s house and that’s why he ran back toward the T. I think gz may have seen Chad at some point near Brandy’s location and that caused him to go that direction. If Chad ever went outside, seeing a black male wouldn’t be so unusual to gz and frank laughy. Just my observation.
Isn’t it amazing how fast Don West can talk now… I told you all Seletor was putting on an act!
Big Willie, I fell for that act hook line and sinker. West is a phoney. I see he didn’t have any chew plug in his mouth yesterday.
Sidebar warning perhaps?
If this demonstration is how MMA is done, it doesn’t fit with what was described with TM being on top. Surely BDLR will have someone demonstrate. 2nd video on page is exprt demo.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/trayvon-martin-ground-and-pound/66702/
I dont think the MMA really matters much, he didn’t see who was on top when the shot went off. I believe what is going to be questioned will be, once George did take control, the wrist lock, was there another alternative at that point to meet force with force. Meaning, letts say if George could not retreat on the bottom, but then gains control, at that point, could he have not shot him in the arm. We know he was in enough control to make sure his hand was not in the way when he shot, that he aimed that shot straight for the heart, he could have injured him elsewhere and then retreat. Does that make sense?
Makes perfect sense. If he was shooting out of urgency, there wouldn’t have been the need for aiming and moving his left hand.
I’ve always believed that Fogen’s own words would convict him. He’s clearly said he that he profiled or sterotyped Trayvon, followed him, and there’s no dispute that he killed him.
How did he manage to get him in wrist hold, when in reenactment, he demonstrates squeezing Trayvon’s arm close to his body to prevent him from reaching the gun?. Is he now only using one hand to beat him up!? How can he pull the gun from holster, aim and fire, with the same right hand…left hand was busy gripping Trayvon’s hoodie.
Why didn’t any of the grass stick to blood on back of his head?
MMA stands for mixed martial arts. It uses techniques from different martial arts.
There are different rules and tecniques in wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu, but they all have techniques to get an opponent to the ground, and techniques to subdue and control the opponent once on the ground. MMA uses these techniques to gain control, and also uses techniques from kickboxing.
I can’t speak about specific wrestling or jiu jitsu techniques, but in judo we have a series of techniques we call sacrifice throws.
A sacrifice throw, is a technique where you place yourself in a disadvantaged position, to gain control.
For example you may fall onto your back, while holding on to your opponent. Your weight will pull the other person with you to the ground. It is called a sacrificial throw, because if you do not execute the technique correctly, you would give your opponent the upper hand.
I never considered GZ using that technique, because I didn’t think he was trained to do that.
Now that I know that GZ did get the training, I think it is possible he got Trayvon on the ground by using a sacrificial throw. So it is very possible that GZ managed to take Trayvon to the ground by falling intentionally on his back.
Here is an example of a sacrificial throw. Notice what would happen if the technique is not executed perfectly. Once you decide to do it you have to follow through completely. A person who actually is not advanced enough to execute this kind of throw, may choose to do it anyway, because it is the fastest, easiest way to get someone to the ground.
Perhaps GZ was trying to flip Trayvon?
I think GZ was completely into his wannabee police mind set. He was chasing a bad guy. I think Trayvon was convinced he was dealing with a pervert.
When GZ saw Trayvon again, he was totally fixated in stopping him. I believe Trayvon asking him why he was following him, may have pierced GZ’s solid believe at that time, that he was the authority figure. I think that is when he pushed Trayvon on the chest. By the way, that was another brilliant move by Miss Rachel, touching that microphone to mimick the sound she heard.
Trayvon may have pushed back, or tried to get away from GZ. I think at that time, GZ got a hold of Trayvon’s clothing, and they may have moved that way for a short period.
Then I think GZ dropped himself to the ground in an attempt to do a sacrifice throw. I think that is when he hit his head, either on the curb of the sidewalk on one of the covers, or a sprinkler head.
I think it was a partially failed throw, which landed Trayvon on top of GZ. That’s what John may have seen. John is lying about the change of position. He does not describe how that occurred. If you listen to his earlier statement, you can hear he has some doubts as to who mounted who, in that second position.
It is possible Trayvon was trying to get up and get away, while GZ was holding on to his clothing, and Trayvon dragged GZ into that second position. But I think it is more likely, GZ was able to roll Trayvon over, and take control.
None of the other witnesses see them on the ground on the sidewalk. Jane said they were on the grass the entire time they were on the ground. I think her vantage point and the length of time she was looking, make her a more reliable witness.
I think GZ had Trayvon in an arm lock, and the yelping sounds are Trayvon screaming in pain everytime GZ tightened his grip.
I do believe GZ was questioning Trayvon. I am not very good in hearing other voices on the 911 tape, but I clearly hear GZ’s voice barking something, about 5 seconds before the shot.
I believe GZ realized he had made a mistake, and that he just assaulted a minor, while carrying a deadly weapon. That is aggrevated assault, a felony. GZ would’ve learned that in his criminal justice class.
He knew the police would be there any moment. They were dispatched to the Retreat, and he knew at least John would be calling 911, which would change the assignment of the dispatched officers.
He knew, he would be going to jail, and his dreams of ever becoming a police officer, would be over.
I think there was premeditation before he shot and killed Trayvon. He shot him straight in the heart. He shot him while holding the gun with one hand and I think the gun was close to his face. The pins at the end of the slide pierced the tip of his nose and the recoil hit him on the side of his nose.He stayed on top of Trayvon, until he was sure he was dead.
That is how I think it happened. And that is what I think the prosecution will try to show, minus the premeditation.
@ amsterdam, your “I think GZ was completely into his wannabee police mind set” comment makes a lot of sense, also in conjunction with the video you posted. Thanks for all that work!
Thanks Groans,
I am trying to make sense out of it. I think this is the theory the prosecution will present.
Each day has been a fantastic day for the prosecution. They are on an absolute roll, and I don’t think they can be stopped at this point. Just like the professor says, the case against Zimmerman is a slam dunk and a guilty verdict is a foregone conclusion.
I see that also, and I also see where the prosacution is going with this, and it is what they haven’t said, but when they piece this all together, just wait……..there’s alot more to come. Georges credability is on trial, when the lies come out one by one, the evidence, and the whitness testimony is pieced together, anything such as who through the first punch, if there is no wittness, doesn’t mean George wins, his word has to be taken. If Georges credability is shattered, and I’m sure there will be no question it will be, let me put it this way, if the story does not fit, you cannot aquit. Throw it all together, and put the part of the Hannity interview that he has no regrets, it was Gods will, and I think he’s toast.
The state is doing a good job, but I fear they’re playing to a Jacksonville jury, not a jury of Sanford residents. They have a case that removes all doubt about Fogen’s guilt, but they’re leaving too much on the cutting room floor in an effort to keep it simple. This jury may require them to rebut each and every point the defense tries to make. But it’s still early in the game.
I believe their whole strategy is to force Fogen to the stand, where it’s game.set.match, and I’ll think they’re building a case for that. But I would never take the stand in Fogen’s shoes. This prosecution team has to build a case without their star witness (Fogen) sufficient for a Sanford jury to convict. I’m not convinced they understand that.
I just saw that disgusting photo of Don West and his daughters with their “vanilla” ice cream prop. Talk about a coded visual.
Beyond reprehensible.
All three look like the worst “white trash” in that picture. WTF is wrong with people; can’t they figure out how poorly they come off? Why do people post and advertise their own low-classness? See the soft porn on Lauer’s twitter page? These people are really beneath contempt but they have delusions of adequacy. “Get thee to the Outhouse.”
@Malisha
That “vanilla” dog whistle was over the top. Problem is, it’s impossible to prove that chit and not everybody has the eyes to see.
@ Malisha my mouth hung open I couldn’t believe that he would allow such behaviour from his kids had the jury not
been sequestered this would be grounds for a mistrial. Rude children like father like daughters. Apple sure didn’t fall far.
Just seen another picture of Dons daughter at a club posing with puckered lips closely at another girls bottom… pictures are going viral.
Once again I am delighted by your genius use of words!!
Real classy, aren’t they?
Does anyone have a complete witness list for the prosecution and in what order BDLR is calling witnesses.?
I read somewhere that Serino, the ME and Tracy and Sabrina will be called next week.
Serino better come clean and tell every detail he can remember. SPD has already demoted him so the dept can careless about him.
Smh George has caused so much chaos, not only for his enemies but his friends as well, just hurts my heart to know Rachel is being humiliated all over the Internet… I hope she’s ok
Teens can be cruel and that child had to admit her inability to read cursive writing. When DW time come I hope they through his behind in the pit with gasoline drawers on. What he did to that child is unforgivable.
Schools do NOT teach cursive these days. I think it’s a big mistake, but that is the situation. Maybe Catholic schools do? Public schools do not, and in my experience private schools do not,either.
There is a push to get kids on computers starting in first grade. I think that is great. However, many urban kids do not have computer access at home. It is all done on their cellphones. Internet access is also a must for doing research. That brings the added cost of a service provider. Urban, transitory people are far less likely to have internet access.
She doesn’t read the news. She didn’t care nothin’ about Crump. She forgot BDLR’s name and called him the bald dude. She lives in her OWN world, not ours, not West’s, not the Outhouse. I give her credit and I give her her props and she will be fine. The only thing is, where do we send beautiful colorful personalized “Go GIRL” hoodies as thank-you gifts for her?
Damn, I would like to show her my appreciation.
Maybe she can be reached through twitter but would that be an issue if she was recalled to the stand?
Wait until the trial’s over but do not do anything unsafe. I wish I knew who her lawyer was.
@ Malisha, he was on CNN or HLN last night. I just can’t remember which one i pet switching between the two. Try googling it.
Her lawyer was on MSNBC yesterday evening. It could have been Al Sharpton, Hardball (Joy Ann Reid filling in for Chris Matthews), or Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell. The shows should be available on the MSNBC site.
And she watches 48 hours which apparently West does not! The young lady is right, one would expect a call if something deadly happened to someone that you were on the phone with when the altercations started. She thought he would be rescued by his daddy so she went on about her teenaged life.
I love Rachel for her bravery, honesty and her innocence. I think Ms. Natalie Jackson will be in touch with her attorney to see if a fund could be started to help Rachel with the trauma of dealing with losing her friend and being humiliated by a bunch of inhumane idiots. I think they want to make sure the money is managed so that no one can take advantage of her. If I learn more, I will certainly share.
I wish the State would have pressed the PA on the likelihood of Fogen’s head injuries coming from a collision with branches from the trees that were in the area during the fight. In that time of year, the branches were jagged and leafless, and the cuts sustained from them could have led to irritation and mild swelling as well.
http://friendsofharvey.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/tree-1.jpg?w=465&h=318
Don West is due to make a statement soon. http://www.businessinsider.com/george-zimmermans-attorney-in-instagram-post-2013-6
NOW? in the middle of the night?
When I find out, I will pass it on..
Don West needs to answer to the court for this. Did he not throw a tantrum with JN when she corrected him, refused his approach to the bench when questioning W8, he did.
That is the last straw of disrespect of JN’s courtroom. Making fun of Rachael online by him and his daughters.
I will never believe West did not brag to his daughters’ “daddy killed it, huh girls. let’s celebrate and get ice cream’.
And he can claim all he likes that he didn’t know. It is clear in the picture that his right arm is forward, TAKING THE PHOTO HIMSELF. So , he didn’t post it up? he should have told his girls LONG AGO not to post comments about cases he’s involved in.
And what are they doing in court, taking up space? when genuine local residents have to draw by lottery to get a seat? who are they to be more important? . I hope at least they get barred from the court.
(Apparently the photo is from Monday, the “killing it” is the 3 hour knock-knock-joke opening: someone on some blog identified the tie he was wearing.. So AT LEAST it was not about poor Rachel/DD, except by the timing of the post).
Even though the timing of the photo was early in the week, it came to everyone’s attention just after RJ and will forever be linked to her in people’s minds.
Rachel has more compassioin and street smarts in her pinky finger than either of the West girls and all their brain power combined.
hi TSTAS, yes i have realized about the timing. for a 19 year Rachael is everything you say and in my eyes she has much to offer too.
if they call Rachael back it would not be out of place to have he attorney there.
(Apparently the photo is from Monday, the “killing it” is the 3 hour knock-knock-joke opening: someone on some blog identified the tie he was wearing
i respect you also LeaNder, and thank you for that compliment.
i am not the first here to mention the recent existence of trolls or will be the last. neither did i figuratively scream trolls, trust me if i would have screamed that i have done so very loudly and not figuratively that i was screaming troll i do not mix my words, i am not an emotional thinker, i am logical. regardless of what i endured living through the 50s; and 60s’, it has shaped me into the strong personality that i am.
at my age i truly realize this is not an insider member only blog.
i do not know how or what of my post you read to interpet that i feel that this would be an insider database ergo member only. nor do i understand why you did not include others who also have mentioned trolls, unless i missed it somewhere. because this blog has comments/replies/notifications have increased significantly since the trial
however i chose to move past this particular discussion and move on, if we may.
ic2fools, you have the problem that you belong to the group of people I am paying more attention than to others. I consider it ultimately Crane and Fred decision to keep people out. I gladly admit I seems was wrong concerning unitron, although his obsessions puzzled me, but I also considered it unfair to call Bettykath a troll. For whatever reasons; I have to admit I don’t like the pseudo-inquisitory rituals that are triggered by attacking someone as a troll. The attacked ones, and I did not even pay much attention have to prove they are well meaning people. Admittedly, i doubt I would surrender to that ritual. Why not concentrate on the argument, or if it feels like pure distraction simply ignore it?
If it flet unfair I singled you out, please excuse, admittedly I did not pay too much attention.
It only feels to me that I cannot completely assure you that there will not be a day when I feel, it somehow went wrong. If that is what it was all about. But so far I have no big concerns. Serino will bring in quite a bit for the ladies to ponder, remember Fogen claimed he had to spread out Trayvon’s hands, and Trayvon still spoke. The basic evidence has been delivered already, that this is unlikely what happened, So the ladies (girls in the place were Rachel’s family comes from) will have to ponder what claim he did so? Was he only inventing a story since he knew he was watched at that point. That evidence was also given. Didn’t he know about the photos Jon took? Did he feel no one would remember since they had to turn Trayvon around? And nobody would be able to take a photo before. Did he hope it was too dark for anyone to see?
I prefer to be patient, even with the occasional “troll”.
ic2fools, you have the problem that you belong to the group of people I am paying more attention than to others. I consider it ultimately Crane and Fred decision to keep people out. I gladly admit I seems was wrong concerning unitron, although his obsessions puzzled me, but I also considered it unfair to call Bettykath a troll. For whatever reasons; I have to admit I don’t like the pseudo-inquisitory rituals that are triggered by attacking someone as a troll. The attacked ones, and I did not even pay much attention have to prove they are well meaning people. Admittedly, i doubt I would surrender to that ritual. Why not concentrate on the argument, or if it feels like pure distraction simply ignore it?
If it flet unfair I singled you out, please excuse, admittedly I did not pay too much attention.
It only feels to me that I cannot completely assure you that there will not be a day when I feel, it somehow went wrong. If that is what it was all about. But so far I have no big concerns. Serino will bring in quite a bit for the ladies to ponder, remember Fogen claimed he had to spread out Trayvon’s hands, and Trayvon still spoke. The basic evidence has been delivered already, that this is unlikely what happened, So the ladies (girls in the place were Rachel’s family comes from) will have to ponder what claim he did so? Was he only inventing a story since he knew he was watched at that point. That evidence was also given. Didn’t he know about the photos Jon took? Did he feel no one would remember since they had to turn Trayvon around? And nobody would be able to take a photo before. Did he hope it was too dark for anyone to see?
I prefer to be patient, even with the occasional “troll”.
ic2fools~ Agreed. I’ve been outing trolls for the past 2 weeks! 🙂
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Hey cielo62, i left hp becuase troll infestation was so bad. i have not forgotten my battles, their names or how they post. some i easily recognize even here.
there was one in particular who had me fooled that i could have a decent debate about the facts of the case. only to find out much differently and when it reared its’ troll intentions i was shocked and taunted.
i found quickly to post around it,because it had gotten that bad. i found myself getting upset and that was not me. so i left battling trolls alone, but i will make note or call to attention there is one out and about.
in my troll battle hayday (snort) i literally had it in tears begging me to stop several others stopped all together with help from my good friends and alliances.
that got old, exhausting, distracting and for the most part a waste of valuable time. so not only did i quit, i finally left.
i love it here, but there is nowhere to go peacefully without an troll encounter. that just a part of being on the net commenting in forum. its’ just up to us how to handle them and each in their own way.
i choose not to interact with them, post around them. i will stick up for my friends and alliances, but i get ugly and don’t like to be pulled into that vaccuum circling a never ending drain.
more power to you cielo62, i’ve seen you in action and you got mad skillz! trust me if ever needed i will step on one for you. 🙂
Ic2fools – I know you got my back, my friend! I’m not nearly as good as Racerrodig or Pirhanamom. I try to avoid confrontation but will enter the fray if a friend is attacked. I bet the professor has repetitive stress syndrome from deleting trolls before they can pass moderation! LOL!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@LeaNder, what the hell are you talking about. I never once called BethKath a troll! As a matter of fact I was having kidney surgery when that occurred. I read about and did not reply or respond to it.
Seriously right now I am not feeling well and this whole conversation you have designed towards me is completely baffling because I made a comment about a troll
today is not you day and tomorrow is not looking to good to continue this madness. Seriously you need to keep me out of that ‘condemning people’ I don’t know what you problem is connecting me to I have a problem.
I have never alienated anyone. What the hell is wrong with you?
Futhermore you put me in a group ‘you watching’. Who the hell are you that I need to tip toe around because you are paying attention to me? That I would be concerned what you think of me will change who I am. Man or woman I don’t know you what the hell are you going to do, pay my bills or school me, teach me, what, punish me. What the hell is that about. Seriously? Well damn!
ic2fools~ LOL! Well let her watch you! I’m sure to be on the same list! I am very protective of this site and I do NOT appreciate trolls at ALL! With so many new names on here nearly daily, I think it behooves us to keep an eye for anybody who brings in lies, tries to distract or attacks another poster, ALL of which are known troll behaviors. I still think Shari is a troll, but her posts have been rehabilitated. Let’s see for how long. HOWEVER, I have faith in you ic2fools. Let Leander roll off your back like water off a duck. 🙂
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Sorry, Icfool, I should not answer via the notify button, it still or again doubles comments. Besides quite a few typos.
if you felt I was unfair, is what I meant
and further down the worst passage seems to be this context:
So the ladies have to ponder, if this did not happen, why does Fogen claim it did. He was aware he was watched, what exactly was he trying to cover up with that bit of narrative?
Now, I have to return to my book. 😉
take care all.
🙂 cielo62 your good, i raise my sons, let it roll off you like water off a duck! my motto!
thanks I not concerned one bit, honey big brother watches all of use all the time, as if others aren’t watching too. its’ what and how it effects one, right
one who remember me from over there know my troll removal techniques get ignant (igornant lol). ya’ll didn’t see that.
i am seriously offended to be accused of calling one of our own a troll and to be on a watch list’. when i was not even here! after my surgery wheni did post i posted around that mess.
so to be singled out and told “i had a problem’ only had me think of Tracy Martin and Trayvon. Being accused of something you didn’t do. I can’t even begin to feel Mr. Martins’ pain. Knowing their difficulty moving on from a life changing pain. So that drama here rolled off me and put me back to the tragedy at hand.
this is the time to support the martins and not for me to be selfish about how i feel being singled out of many accused. so it is what it was.the best to ’em.
so i’ll be out monday at drs, blah. I should be able to catch the beginning. o’mara said something about if tey reach a bottleneck and alternative on how to handle. hmmmm, got my interest.
i have faith that Bernie, John Guy and Mantei won’t miss a beat walking fogen in that box!
I hope i don’t miss kokopellis’ testimony, i expect to see videos of fogen in the gym, testimony of him sparring, classes he took or training. i don’t listen to what joonyer tweeted or what o’mara/west have said. i’ll wait till i hear what Bernie has to say!!!!
I found that photo and the caption to be disgusting.
Why are there so many people here (suddenly) who are trying to disparage the prosecution? GTFO.
They don’t see the big picture, Judy. They feel every tiny bit of evidence has to be put under a microscope. Bernie thinks some can be just mentioned and then brought back in again more strongly, from a better witness.
Also, everyone here has heard G’s story, all 7 of them. People are wanting Bernie to ask questions that will make a lie of the stories.
The jury (officially at last) hasn’t heard them. So there’s nothing yet to make a lie of. It’s just enough to weaken any witness that may support GZ’s version(s) so he’ll never be able to tell his story with any hope of being believed. At this stage, pulling apart bits of it too much would just make him change his final version.
It’s been a fast-moving week, despite West’s best efforts, and a lot of good groundwork has been laid.
I think anxiety is getting the best of all of us because we so desperately want justice for Trayvon.
Personally this jury scares the bejeezuss out of me.
I cosign with Woow!.
1) Nothing the lawyers say is evidence.
2) Fogen’s statements and claims have not been submitted, therefore, it will not be weighed.
I’m with you aussie 100%, I see the defense falling apart with each and every witness, testimony and evidence they introduce. No matter how small.
When MOM tried to stop JN from allowing what fogen and the PA wrote about intense MMA exercise, 3 hours a day, 3 hours a week. Truly turned up the heat on Fogen, no being a weak and naieve concerned neighbor.
State is doing a great job, defense will have no choice but to put Fogen on the stand.
Keep doing what your are doing Bernie, John and Mantei, ya’ll know you job better than us and have evidence we do not know of and how to present it. Widening a door MOM can’t close, walking Fogen right into the BOX.
X2 Woow and Granny
Woow, Granny, Sophia. One mainly is scared when one has not enough facts. If I were you I would listen carefully to the selected ladies based on fauxy’s list. I hope that 29 is not the one that was excused. I liked it when she spoke up.
Remember the joke by West, the fact that he spoke about evidence. But now they constantly see prosecution presenting evidence.
Remember Rachel/DD’s description of noise, grass like rolling in the grass? Who used a similar description Janna Lauer? Now that is someone defense did not challenge. They can witness this easily since they are not distracted by expectations as we are but look at what is presented to them.
Be prepared that prosecution is slowly building up momentum. It would make no sense at all to present too much at a time. The jury would be completely unable to grasp it. To grasp things, the important details must be repeated from different perspectives and different witnesses. Do not expect too much at a time.
The more I watch with what I already know about the evidence that we have had access to for over a year, the more I am certain of a conviction. I owe that to those on this blog that keep everything in perspective in a positive way! The Professor is awesome. When I read so many negative comments and then hear from the professor and others that I have been learning from for months, I can ignore those that do not have the confidence. I have been saying for months how I will not let any negative thoughts into my mind about this case and I mean just that!
I want to thank you all (too many to name and I would not want to leave anyone out) for helping me learn the legal procedures for criminal trials. Skipping over the negative comments is about the best thing I can do!
J4T 6.10.13
I am not sure if I mentioned this in one of the previous threads, but would Jenna be able to see Goode from her screened in patio with the white divider if he had not been more than one foot in and one foot out of his sliding glass door? She definitely seen him out there and so did Mrs, Manala and Selene, right. John seen more than he his telling and I can not wait until the state gets him on cross.
Just looking back over the pictures because Jenna said she never left the enclosure. I believe she did not, but do think Jeremy did. Trayvon’s screams for help at the start of the call seemed to be closer at the start of her 911 call and then fade as if she ran back into the house. She need to come on back and face the music too!
Alright Judy75201, serous troll alert. Nothing but trolls a bunch of distracting trolls.
I thought that also Ic…
You got it right smokegyrl!
I hope you don’t consider me a troll because the prosecution isn’t showing me too much. I can not coat it with optimism. I am very concerned about this case and followed it from the beginning. I have always felt that what happened that night was murder and I want justice for Trayvon. No matter how much we want the truth to shine through an honest person would have to admit yesterday in particular was not a good day for the prosecution.
The prosecution needs to be as fierce and as strong as their opening statement and I pray they’ve got an end game because I don’t like the direction it is going in. They let West badger, sneer and insult Rachel forever and, she had to fend for herself and thank God she could because no one was there in her corner that I could tell. I’m still pissed.
@heartofhearts
First, I did not refer to you personally and nor do I feed trolls by interacting with them. I have not in anyway spoken badly about those here that I do not agree with.
I am not an emotional thinker nor wear my heart on my sleeve that can be easily bruised. However, if you feel offended I do apologize because my statement is not personally directed to you.
Again I am not an emotional thinker I am a logical thinker. I do not look at this case with an optimistic eye as some of the others who have doubts.
I see the State opening a door the defense can not shut. A door wide enough for Fogen to walk directly onto the Stand with no way out but to testify.
I do not see how many missed the fact the State has evidence we do not know of. We knew of the gym but did not know the details until yesterday. Which MOM did his best as he did August 12, 2012 interview with OS Rene Stuzman to keep the state from getting that information. Big fail.
As we saw yesterday. All I can offer to you is patience and keep the faith.
The State know their case and how to present it better than any of us, yes including me. And they will without a doubt present their case and will get the conviction. The defense deceit is unraveling string by string by string, unable to repair or recoup.
I cannot say, I have paid too much attention lately since I concentrate on the witnesses …
I respect you icfools, but I don’t think we should make this into a pure insider database and whenever someone apparently new to the comment section dares to stick his head in, figuratively, and scream: troll.
It no doubt wasn’t easy for Rachel, but it wasn’t bad for defense either. Good they did not interfere. He got some points and then he started to overdo it. i think he really thought he could get her impeached if he kept it going longer. At that point, I am pretty sure, some of the ladies emotions shifted towards empathy for Rachel. It feels to me West has a slightly misogynistic trait and he treats people differently. That is easy to see, he cannot hide his intentions as well as Mom. In the end Rachel scored the most important point that West really could not challenge.
His frustration about it showed when he demanded she had to stay in the court till the end of the day, although she had finished her testimony. The ladies could clearly see something she had alluded to before. He tried to degrade her for no apparent reason. This possibly allowed them to understand and empathize with her earlier defiant behavior much easier. In the end she asked Nelson if she could do something and Nelson answered as soon as you are outside the court, which signaled to them that Nelson did not grant West’s revenge desire.
All these revelation couldn’t have happened if prosecution had stepped in too early and too much in Rachel’s defense. Quite the opposite it would have given them the feeling that prosecution has something to hide. Prosecution gave West much leeway to allow the ladies to arrive at their own decision about matters.
Don’t believe the hype, judy75201.. The prosecution is doing a great job… The trolls come here to discourage us because we’re WINNING… They (defense/trolls) call it “circular logic”! I call it BULLSHYT!
Tell it FactsFirst, tell like it is! (i’m standing clapping at your comment!)
Can “circular logic” be cut with a circular saw?
Emm Hehheheeee, MMP, ya i think it can!!!!
I am hoping that you GTFO was not meant for me and if it was I hope you learn how to speak to people. Just because you don’t have the same views as I or anyone else doesn’t give you the right to curse at anyone. You don’t like it close you eyes. I’ve been on this blog as long as you. Trayvon was one of my step daughters friends, she cried was devastated,
had to be consoled by us. So you GTFO! How bout that! I call a spade a spade and if we here want to be blind then go ahead, but if you or anyone else think that Bernie is doing a great job, i say you’re lying to yourself. is there a method to his madness, that remains to be seen. I say if the jury got the case today we would loose and that’s something I don’t want to see but I am a realist. Be bias and close your eyes if you want to its real in that courtroom, what we think here about the evidence don’t matter. what we want to happen, don’t matter, all that matters is what the state can prove. He won’t get a second chance, this is not a dress rehearsal . Mark is keeping photos up, getting down on the floor demonstrating and getting witnesses to change their story. the jury is going back to there rooms with those images in their head. Say what you want, it’s a time to connect and it’s a time to lock that witness into his or her statement. And in my opinion he’s not locking them down. He made points yesterday but he lost more and if he continue like this surely we all will be in tears.
P.S. see how I said my opinion, that’s what this is, my opinion, you don’t like it Hop Off!
I don’t believe they were talking about you Tee… I KNOW WHO THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT!!.. IMHO we do have trolls here trying to plant a seed of doubt.. The prosecution HAVE TO PLAY BY THE RULES! The prosecution has over 200 witnesses, so they havn’t even scratched the surface.. IMO, THE PROSECUTION is doing a great job… (IMHO) The jury is NOT stupid… EVERY SEED THE DEFENSE attempted to PLANT, the prosecution DUG IT BACK UP!!! We shouldn’t fight amongst eachother, because thats exactly what the real TROLLS want..
HOODIES UP!
awwww Tee… give your step daughter a hug for me… *sigh* When it hits closer to home… then I can realize the results someone would want to have. I do feel somewhere there a hand that is going to reach down and snatch it all away from the defense. My grandmother always told me if you give someone an inch they will take a mile in their lies… and yes the pictures have been shown but has been snagged back by Bernie… Dee Dee already told the compelling story… All this time all the witnesses has been called the tv cameras have been focused on Fogen when those pictures have been shown… when Dee Dee was on the stand… The jurors had to be focused on him too… They had to see what we have been seeing… The stoic face, the unmoving face, the un emotional face, no un remorseful face… he is like a robot… no feelings what so ever… Tee if God is our Witness that’s going to count for something. He is telling on himself. I have faith that Justice will be served for Trayvon even if Fogen walks. When Fogen blamed God to say it is His Plan for a choice he made, well he made his own judgment on that one.
See the problem with some faithfull ppl on here is that they call ppl “TROLLS” for not seeing things they same way they see them. Its only my or your opinion of what you observed. Its frustrating when you are a “TROLL” because you have a different view….then all of a sudden your on he “defense side”. I have learned that some ppl will put logic over feelings and some ppl put feelings over logic. WE ALL want JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON, and because we don’t all agree with something DOES NOT make you a TROLL.
If you ARE NOT a TROLL, then “YOU” shouldn’t be offended by other commenters opinions/observations of them… just saying… The other day I thought someone was calling me a troll, because sometimes comments end up in the wrong place and it can be mistaken as directed towards you.. I simply asked the group if they were talking about me before I made any assumtions… It was cleared up… Simple… just saying..
WE CAN DISAGREE without being DIASGREEABLE…
WE do have TROLLS here… If you’re not one, again you SHOULD NOT be offended.
@FactsFirst
WE CAN DISAGREE without being DIASGREEABLE…
WE do have TROLLS here… If you’re not one, again you SHOULD NOT be offended.
I am standing right with you on this.
OK, one thing we should consider is that before the jury deliberates there are closing arguments and also there are jury instructions. In closing arguments, the prosecution will link every single fact up to every single other fact and remind the jury how the fact was proven. The defense will then try to inject whatever it has and tear down the facts but if they don’t put ON their own facts with their own witnesses, they won’t have FACTS to tell the jury. For instance, you can’t tell the jury, “We had the PA testify that it was possible that a person could have a hematoma” because the PA did not testify that Fogen HAD a hematoma. Theories, “possible fish,” suppositions, rumors, opinions (unless they’re expert opinions) and suggestions are not facts. If the defense does not put on testimony that says “Trayvon Martin attacked Fogen when he was just standing there saying ‘no problem,’ in a non-threatening way,” there is no real evidence that the defense can use to cast doubt on the actual facts the prosecution is proving day by day.
So after the defense tries in its closing argument to poke holes in the case, then the last argument goes back to the prosecution. UNLIKE opening argument (which should simply set the stage for what both sides will try to prove), closing argument gives a last bite of the apple to the State.
THEN the judge gives the jury instructions. She will again remind the jurors that stuff said by lawyers is not evidence; only what they hear sworn to and see shown during testimony is evidence. So all those possible fish get thrown back and cannot be digested.
THEN the jury deliberates.
This might not be a fair system if we were on Fogen’s side, but it is a very important consideration for us now, if we feel insecure. Let the news media carry on all they like. If you keep index cards showing what the State proved so far, you’ll see we’re playing with a pretty full deck.
I’m also hoping that BDLR gets a quick education on social media and recalls Witness Lauer to ask why she lied under oath. She WAS following Robert Zimmerman, and she outright lied on the stand.
On a lighter note, in response to Don West’s utterly classless daughter’s twitter about “beating stupidity,” I made a subtle modification to the picture they posted. I don’t do social media, so if you like it, pass it along.
I think Mantei is the tech savvy guy on the team. I’m sure once some of those witnesses are called back Mantei will get them on cross.
Not bad, while I don’t think this matters much, it surely is an interesting glance at the stupidity and arrogance of entitlement.
Your modification is quite fitting.
But apart from that I wouldn’t mind to have such a cone myself.
That junk is too funny and I will pass it along!
Ahahahahahahahahaha
I’m getting worried about the prosecution. John Guy is a great presenter but he sits paralyzed while everybody thinks he should be jumping on his feet, objecting. And BDLR’s “friendly bald guy” act plays well with the jury but he seems to go overboard with it when cross-examining. He tosses underhand softballs instead of curve balls.
I’m no lawyer, but specifically in the case of Lindsee Folgate’s testimony, he seems to have left lots of stones unturned.
He didn’t ask about the drugs Zimmerman was taking. Some here have alluded to privacy and what could and couldn’t be disclosed in court. But I would argue that the psychotropic drug regime he was on was 100% relevant, unlike his tonsil problems, which were mentioned (however in passing).
He didn’t get the PA to say that had Zimmerman come in with bumps on his head, she would have noticed them.
He didn’t get the PA to explain what “atraumatic” and “normocephalic” meant.
He didn’t get the PA to talk about the cuts to the tip of Zimmerman’s nose, particularly whether they could have been the sole source of his nose bleeding.
He didn’t get the PA to express skepticism that a pounding of the head against concrete would have produced such superficial injuries.
He didn’t get the PA to convert the metric size of Zimmerman’s cuts to inches. Most people can’t visualize 0.5 cm, but most people know that a cut 3/16″ long is barely a boo-boo.
He didn’t ask the PA if she knew that Zimmerman had a special chair at work precisely for sacroiliac pain.
He didn’t ask the PA if Zimmerman’s two head lacerations would have been more consistent with rubbing against a sharp metallic object, like a sprinkler head embedded in the grass, than with slamming repeatedly against concrete.
He didn’t ask the PA if Zimmerman’s assorted minor abrasions, so minor they were not evident the next day under examination, could be more consistent with rubbing against grass than hitting against concrete.
I sure hope BDLR has a medical expert in the wings to discredit Zimmerman’s story, but said expert will at best be going by photographs. Nothing could beat the medical practitioner who personally diagnosed Zimmerman.
Maybe JN would not permit him to mention the drugs CAC was taking. There was a sidebar regarding the records and we do not know what was said, but we speculated.
A side effect of Adderall is impotency. That would be too much of an embarrassment for GZ and ShelLIE if it is on his medical records.
The drugs listed may not have been permitted, but even without the drugs explicitly mentioned it’s VERY damning to have it come out that he was under the care of a psychologist. Might even be MORE damaging than listing the drugs (jury speculating about WHY he was seeing a shrink is probably worse than maybe recognizing the drugs and thinking “Oh, I know someone who takes that and they’re no creepy child killer”).
@RobertSF I have the same questions as you. I even researched concrete injuries. I found concrete injuries leave burn like marks. So Foggen’s injuries are not consistent with a head being slammed on the concrete/cement. I sure hope a medical expert is sitting in the wings.
He could have asked her, hell the defence used her as an expert why not the state. He could have simply asked her when he disposed her are those injuries consistent with having you head slammed to concrete. Have she ever treated someone that had there head slammed against concrete, what kind of wounds does it leave. He would have all of his answers ready for court, He chooses not to press witnesses and he chooses not to dig for the right information. It was like he just met her that day .
The PA is not a specialist in diagnosing and treating traumatic head wounds.
Therefore, she was not the right person to question about the probable causes and severity of the defendant’s head wounds.
The bottom line is the defendant declined multiple offers to transport him to the ER after the shooting and he did not go to the clinic seeking treatment the following morning. He went there to get a note authorizing him to return to work and he refused to PA’s recommendation to follow up with an ENT specialist.
He also never requested or obtained an Xray, which is something that he could still do today. An Xray taken today would show a healed fracture.
There is a reason why the defendant declined medical treatment and never requested an Xray.
When O’Mara went fishing for additional possible injuries and related concerns based on an examination of the photographs of the defendant’s head taken at the police station, he caught a boatload of possible fish.
There is no known recipe for preparing possible fish.
Since the defendant did not mention, much less complain about those specific bumps or lumps on his head, there is no reason to believe those possible fish were real fish.
O’Mara pulled off a pretty good smoke-and-mirrors cross, but in the end there wasn’t anything there.
We did find out, however, that the defendant was working out 3 times per week doing MMA style aerobics at the Kokopelli Gym starting in August 2012.
exactly, Professor, who exactly would be worried about medical costs in circumstances like that? Only someone who feels pretty sure about his tale.
Professor, since there is no known recipe for possible fish, I want everyone to know that I can move right into that vacuum. (I fancy myself a cook.) As follows:
RECIPE FOR POSSIBLE FISH:
Ingredients:
14,622 suggestions from unscrupulous lawyers
2 tons gullibility
15 months misleading press reports
99 websites blaming the victim and trashing African Americans
Directions:
Choose possible fish
Draw attention to them
Optional: Remove fins and scales
Put them in a big pot
Stir for two to four weeks
It won’t do you a bit of good
Serve with toast — provided by Fogen
Sounds fishy to me.
They can’t ask about the drugs Fogen is taking unless the motion for those medical records were entered into evidence as discovery. That is another field of asking another doctor of psychology. That would open another can of worms. I would think. The Defense team then can say he was mentally incapacitated and didn’t know what he was doing in killing Trayvon if those drugs were brought up. But then maybe not since he didn’t plea an insanity plea… maybe that is coming but they just couldn’t ask the PA because that is not her expertise.
fogen told serino of the drugs he was on.
It doesn’t MATTER what drugs he was on. Nobody has to prove that any drugs he took made him aggressive because he chased down a kid and killed him. The aggression is proven. Nobody has to prove that he was drugged up so as to be acting wrong because he ACTED wrong; the wrongness is obvious. I don’t care if he was on Spiney Koruvalating cactus extract with citrated dihydrochlorovomitus; he killed an unarmed kid with ill will and a depraved mind and he can’t even begin to show evidence of justification. He better swallow his pills now because there’s no other way for him to regain his fantasy world nowadays.
“He’s on sumtin”……
http://www.dhmo.org
Being under the influence of prescription drugs is no more valid an excuse than being drunk. If he was taking medications that could affect his judgment, cognition or, behavior he would have been warned of the side effects either verbally or in the printed instructions that came with the meds or both. He would still be responsible for his actions. If the drugs were adversely affecting his judgment, he should not have been carrying a gun.
Good point Dave.
😉 😉 😉
wha da… lmao… is that???
i love Malisha’s humor. Look carefully how elegantly she got in quite a few allusions, while making it look pretty scientific superficially.
BDLR did not ask where fogen got the anti-inflammatory or ice that the PA said would be NECESSARY to reduce his wounds. He will ask Detective Serino that. No law enforcement have mentioned ice or anti-inflammatories, if I remember correctly. BDLR needed the PA to introduce the MMA classes. In my opnion, he may also be using her testimony to show drug-seeking behavior. Poor little fogen could not sleep at night needed PILLS!
Excellent catch! BDLR DEFINITELY needs to ask SPD witnesses what ice and ant-inflammatory treatments he was given at the station in the four hours between those two pictures that made that nose swelling go down impossibly fast!
She showed the jury members with her fingers how much it meant. It is obvious that this lady cannot be as straightforward in her answers and cannot tell you what she thinks about it. She clearly stated that she based her diagnosis on his own statements. I think the ladies understand the above quite well. Much of what you want her to say or state something about is clearly not her job. She often said: Could be, that does not mean it is.
The PA was asked to convert these to inches and she demonstrated with her hands. Teensy-weensy cuts that needed no stitches. He truly should have done some discourse about other ways Fogen might have cut his head. In a way, defense did some of the prosecutions’ work when they asked about swift resolution of some of the bumps, etc. The PA said that some of what was photographed early could have resolved before she saw Fogen. I think the jury will get it.
Having a bump on the top near the forehead is not consistent with a head banging and neither are the bumps on the sides of his head. If I were looking at that picture that MOM loves to showboat, I would ask myself, “How the hell would a head banging happen on these areas of the head?” It just looks like his head is lumpy. Perhaps, a few on the jury will be asking the same thing and will then bring that to the attention of the others.
We still know that all of his vitals were normal so they could not have been that bad even if they were true.
@Professor Fred and Class –
I was not able to watch the testimony of John Good (W6) today but expected he would continue his recantation of his MMA Pound & Grind accusation against Trayvon.
This evening I was shocked to see a clip from today on HuffPost. There was nothing there similar to his interview (the second – the recantation) by FDLE last summer.
GONE IS HIS STATEMENT about the outstretched hands, or of Zimmerman appearing to rear up.
Because W6 was interviewed him under oath, isn’t he required to continue with the recantation? Isn’t John Good subject to perjury charges?
TEN MONTHS ago I transcribed that interview and used it as the basis for my submittal below. Professor Fred always considered JohnW6 a worm, but as you’ll see, I gained a good impression of the guy as somebody seeing the light and turning to the truth. BOY, was I wrong!
If anyone wants to read his quotes, here is my report from last August (published in September). How does this stack up with his testimony today?
To the Professor and our class —
THE WITNESS,
THE STRUGGLE,
THE BLOOD,
and THE GRASS
Working as in investigative reporter a few years back, the cardinal rule before using any disclosure is that two sources must concur, to verify the information. I continue to follow that process during the Zimmerman investigation. There is a surprising amount of documentation – including transcripts, audiotapes, videos, forensic evidence including the weapon and fatal bullet – and a defendant who admits he fired the fatal shot.
But we do not have a credible eyewitness to the gunshot.
Only two people saw what happened: Zimmerman whose motivation is clear: to escape conviction for Murder 2, and Trayvon Martin, who cannot witness because he is dead.
Mainstreamfair posted 8/29 “…the reason O’Mara changed his strategy. He wants to take the focus off Zimmerman being the aggressor. The evidence points to Z being the aggressor and it is very unlikely he would win a SYG. Mark is now going for self-defense immunity and wants to prove that Z was on the bottom of the altercation and used deadly force because he feared death or great bodily harm and could not RETREAT. I am not sure the latter will work but it is Z’s only hope of getting immunity and have the case thrown out. O’Mara is using every bit of ammo in his arsenal.”
Mainstreamfair is CORRECT:
Convincing the jury that Zimmerman is “the guy at the bottom of the heap” is their ONLY chance for Zimmerman to go free.
Forensic evidence opposes this: the TRAJECTORY of the bullet, which would prove that if the weapon was fired while both men were on the ground (as Zimmerman claims), Zimmerman must have been ABOVE Trayvon for his arm to be in the position to fire and accomplish this trajectory.
I expect the prosecution to have two men, in matching height and weight to GZ and TM. who will demonstrate for the jury BOTH positions: firing from above (which would work) and firing from below (which can’t work).
REQUEST: Professor, please advise if this demonstration would NOT be permitted by the court.
Of course, GZ is welcome to play himself in the both scenarios …
I expect the Medical Examiner will report on the trajectory and have large diagrams up on the screen for the jurors’ reference.
The Sanford PD re-creation videos should be shown, again with the performers proving it could not have happened the way Zimmerman claims.
But O’Mara (or Zimmerman’s remaining attorney) will bring forth witness testimony before the shot, stating Trayvon Martin was “the guy on top” – as he was for the observed minute JUST BEFORE the shooting.
How and WHEN was Zimmerman able to reverse this position and gain the dominant one?
[Note that the testimony of TWO witnesses have not yet been made public: Witnesses #4 and #7. There are some bombshells yet to come!]
Note also that I will direct you two sources to review, which reference diagrams drawn by witnesses, and to my knowledge those drawings have not been made public by the authorities – so, we continue to struggle.
First, please go to the Axiom Amnesia Website for its sector that is entirely devoted to the Zimmerman prosecution. See site for WITNESS #6:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
Listen to the recordings of WITNESS #6 (“John”) with his 911 call (Call #4). and the follow-up interview by John Bachelor, Special Agent, FDLE, and Jim Post of the State Attorney’s Office, 18th Judicial, and the later interview by Bernie de la Rionda for the prosecution.
Also, I am indebted to our co-student, “Brown,” for providing the following link, and to WillisNewton@BccList for assembling the large file (538 pages) with index, transcripts and previous court hearings, which Brown sent this past week:
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
On pages 31-46 (29-44 in the index and printed at the bottom of the pages) is the 45-minute interview on 3/20/12 of “John.”, the ONLY known witness to step out and interface with the struggling Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman on the night of the shooting – before the shot was fired.
I believe that the jury will be impressed by WITNESS #6. He is credible, intelligent and forthcoming. He is careful in his depiction of what happened that fatal night.
But what strikes me the most, however, is his report on the THREE final locations for the battle: grass, to concrete, to grass.
The final, “to grass” is where Trayvon’s body lay.
You will recall that this is the witness who originally described Trayvon Martin seated on George Zimmerman and pounding him “MMA style.”
In this long and extensive interview, he changes that view. States that all he knows of mixed martial arts is what he’s seen extensively on TV, and that he’s never been a wrestler himself.
[Interjecting my own comment in this report to you, I think we all know that TV wrestling and related video violence is scripted for maximum action from a VISUAL viewpoint, not for effective battle.]
Away from the stress of the event he has had time to reflect on what happened, and ELIMINATE conclusions that he felt he could not have accurately made, due to the darkness of the night.
Striking about this testimony is that he repeatedly emphasizes Zimmerman’s continued ATTEMPT TO RISE to the dominant position. This cinches it for me. We know Zimmerman had the weight-strength advantage, we know he went to the gym, and we know he had experience as a bouncer.
None of the other witnesses have been able to describe any of the on-the-ground wrestling because WITNESS #6 was the only witness to go outside and call out to them (“Stop! What’s going on? I’m calling 911!”).
WITNESS #6 also describes Trayvon Martin, while in the dominant position, with his arms down, in a restraining position holding Zimmerman’s arms at bay, and in the de la Rionda interview that he heard NO sounds of punching and banging.
This explains why neither Trayvon’s or Zimmerman’s arms or hands were injured (save for a quarter-inch abrasion on Trayvon’s ring finger) and no Zimmerman blood was found on Trayvon’s hands or wristbands of his hoodie.
This “wrestling match” was, in fact, a desperate holding pattern by Trayvon while WITNESS #6 observed him, with Zimmerman trying to get up into the dominant position.
Note these quotes by WITNESS #6 about Zimmerman on the bottom:
“… there was a guy on the bottom that seemed like he was pushing up …”
“I can’t tell if he was making eye contact with me, or if he was just trying to get up from the bottom … But it does look like he was trying to get up, while they were both wrestling each other.”
“I could see there was a another man, in a lighter colored shirt on the bottom, who looked like he was trying to get up at that point … “
“I’m not sure if he was holding on to the guy on the top or if he was trying, ‘cause I only see one guy at first. Um, it looks like the other guy was trying to get up because, I mean, his back was raised off, uh, the ground at that point so it looked like he was trying to get up at that point but I don’t know if they [GZ’s hands] were on the other guy’s sweatshirt or if he was, you know, trying to actually push off of him … “
So, WITNESS #6’s description of “just two guys out here wrestling” always stresses Zimmerman’s effort to gain the dominant position.
What does he have to say about Trayvon Martin, whom he once described as meting out MMA-style punches?
“I don’t know if they’re, you know punches that are bein’ thrown at him at this point or if he’s tryin’ to hold him down … I don’t know if he’s trying to hold him down or if those are actually, you know, punches … “
“ … and that’s when I made the statement that that he was hitting him … It coulda been him just trying to forcefully hold the guy down … I can’t see that close to where they were actually at, but he was still on top with both hands, uh, either trying to hold the guy down or hitting him at that point … “
“ I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other, if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there … “
“ … but like the first statement I made, I did say he was hitting him from the top. Or he could have been trying to hold him down, you know, I really truly can’t tell at that point … “
“ … at that point whoever had the advantage was the guy wearing the black shirt [Martin]. There were no, um, punches at that point or any hands flail, you know, in the air. It was just more of looked like it as wrestling … “
“ … thinking back on it, you know, it coulda just been him trying to hold him down, too and keep him secured. … “
In the next recorded interview, Bernie de la Rionda asks him solely about two elements: did WITNESS #6 “hear any punching sound?” (socking his hand emphatically so WITNESS #6 knew what he was talking about), and “when they were on the concrete, did you hear any sounds of a head or body part being hit on the concrete?” [paraphrased]
As you will hear in the recording, WITNESS #6 gave de la Rionda two definite “NO” answers.
Also, you will hear in the prior recording John Bachelor asking, “At any time where they changes positions can you see anything in either one of them’s hands?”
WITNESS #6 says “No.”
The witness describes a traveling wrestling match from just outside his patio up to the concrete dogwalk, then he dashes back inside to call 911 (as he had yelled at them he was going to do), locks the door before heading upstairs, hears the shot (“like a rock”) looks out the upstairs window down at the fight scene while he’s talking to the 911 dispatcher and describes Trayvon Martin’s dead body sprawled out, fully in the grass below – away from the concrete dog walk.
All of this backs up the forensic evidence, photos, testimony (except for Zimmerman’s testimony), etc.
This was a grappling wrestling match with both on the ground. Witnesses reported Trayvon on top as did WITNESS #6 who was closest to them – but he had left the scene at the time of the shot.
WITNESS #6 describes Zimmerman in a “white or red” shirt below Trayvon – other witnesses describe Zimmerman over the body in a “white” shirt. Under his jacket in police photos Zimmerman wears a light grey shirt. Not “dark.”
Ever wonder why there were no hand injuries for either Trayvon or Zimmerman? Trayvon, with the longer reach, was effective in keeping Zimmerman’s arms pinned to the ground.
This was Trayvon’s wisest move. He couldn’t take his own hands off Zimmerman’s arms (say to “smother” GZ, hold his hand over Zimmerman’s nose/mouth, to crack Zimmerman’s head against the concrete dogwalk like a cantaloupe or ANY of that Zimmerman-fantasy stuff) because Zimmerman would gain the use of those hands against Trayvon.
Zimmerman’s “back of the head cuts” (2) obviously happened either scraping on the concrete or dragging across the sprinkler head installed contiguous with the dogwalk – JUST BEFORE they hit the last patch of grass where Zimmerman, in a last push, was able to gain the ascendancy — and Trayvon Martin was shot to death.
How did Zimmerman do it? He had the strength and training. He likely freed one hand to get one of Trayvon’s arms in a painful lock (you hear the screaming), reversed their positions — and now straddled his victim.
Zimmerman was on top. Proof is in the photo – the fresh-cut blood began to flow from the top of the back of Zimmerman’s head, forward across his cheek, to settle in the goatee on Zimmerman’s chin.
Untouched by the wet grass on which he had struggled before.
The “bleeding head” was the next-to-last incident.
Not splashed by rain.
Not wiped and smeared by the St. Augustine grass below.
Crisp margins from quick coagulation.
Zimmerman’s final sequence was drawing the Kel-Tec, shooting Trayvon Martin through the torso, then frisking him for the weapon he hoped to find, flipping him over, checking for the exit wound, then one last frisk for a holster and weapon on Trayvon where he, himself carried his gun.
But Trayvon Martin was unarmed.
Zimmerman declared he had shot him, and, “It was self-defense.”
Many of you believe that Zimmerman would have drawn his gun earlier. I can’t see that. It may be, that as a gun owner and a hunter, I know better than run over open ground (in the dark, yet) with a loaded gun. I think Osterman would have trained him well on that point.
I think the first encounter between Zimmerman and Trayvon happened when the vigilante demanded “What are you doing around here?” grabbed at Trayvon’s shirts, Trayvon’s arms flew up instinctively and his elbow caught Zimmerman in the nose.
Before that Zimmerman was not ready to draw a gun on the “suspect” and hold him for the cops — big trouble doing that.
He expected to “exert his authority” without, unfortunately and stupidly, announcing just what his “authority” was.
Trayvon wasn’t going to go along with this dangerous creep, and I expect when Zimmerman went down after getting his nose cracked, he grabbed at Trayvon and they started this grappling on the ground, with Trayvon getting control of Zimmerman’s arms, pinning them to the ground.
.
The interviews of WITNESS #6 have filled in the pieces of the puzzle for me.
I now have the validation on why both their hands were uninjured, and how the two small cuts on Zimmerman happened – on the concrete, or on the Rain Bird 1800-SAM Spray Head contiguous to the dogwalk – just before Zimmerman got the ascendancy and straddled Trayvon Martin in that final grassy space.
Otherwise the blood would have smeared on the wet grass if Zimmerman were “the man underneath.”
As Mainstreamfair posted 8/29 “… O’Mara changed his strategy … Mark is now going for self-defense immunity and wants to prove that Z was on the bottom of the altercation.”
O’Mara will fail in that attempt.
The bloody photo of Zimmerman’s head puts the lie to that claim.
………………………………….. Well, folks, that’s where I was ten months ago. I can’t figure out how and why John W6 gave a third version of his encounter today.
Thanks for reading.
He is listed as a defence witness, too. If he does get called, then the State can drag up his older versions and impeach him on them. On what they have from him so far, it’s just enough to show the jury that he’s umming and ahhing and uncertain already.
PLUS the being on the bottom may turn out bad for GZ, if anyone from the gym comes along to give evidence he was learning grappling moves made from the bottom position.
oops, I have to come back to this comment. But strictly your first line is exactly why I challenged unitron’s biased media misrepresentation conception. It is much more likely to be expected. And this may help you to understand why the jury is sequestrated.
Piranha, if I am not completely mistaken he changes a part of the story again:
Did I get it wrong or was it now, for the first time ever, that he did not bother to lock the door. He always said he locked it, not he shut it. Followed by the collective RTL ritual of going upstairs.
There is something seriously wrong with Knox and now West/Mom’s argument that the first statements are also the most reliable. Especially in this case. All these first statements were colored by the fact that he heard the shooter surrender. it also served to relieve his conscience that he went away exactly at the point when matters seemed to get much more serious.
While none of the ladies probably has fighting experience, they all heard that the setting was dynamic during these 10 seconds, they now also heard that Fogen trained in MMA three times a week.
i cannot help but it always felt to me that John somehow triggered what happened after. Fogen knew he saw him during the exactly right time of more dynamic events. The rest he felt could not have seen much due to darkness. The problem with the attempts to hammer in the darkness theme, is that our eyes can adopt to darkness easily after a short delay.
I was very curious as to why John said MMA style punching. I am more inclined to believe there was a discussion between Johnnd Zim where Zim tells him that Trayvon was a thief and he had to shoot him and while getting the story straight Zim told him to say MMA style punches. I can not gather where John would come up with that out of the blue. The problem came in when prosecution decided to charge Zimmerman so now John wants to change his story up and be evasive about the whole MMA thing because Zim is the one who actually took MMA at a gym since 2011. John is a liar. I really believe he saw Martin on bottom but is careful to not perjure himself with his lies.
I hear the argument about “light” or “white” clothes for the “one on the bottom”, but Trayvon was wearing Kakhi pants and bright white shoes. In a kneeling position, the pants with shoes could have looked like a shirt or jacket.
The person wearing the “lightest” clothes that night was Trayvon with his pants and shoes.
KA- RIGHT! OMG I totally forgot how much light clothing Trayvon was wearing! In poor light it is hard to tell upper body and lower body in the confused tumble of bodies moving around. You made an excellent observation!! Not to sound like a Treeper, but we should send that out to Bernie.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I pray whatever the verdict is, that it’s not read on Friday 7/26/13. July 26th is the release date of the movie Fruitvale Station. I’ve always believed Fogen was reenacting the Oscar Grant murder, with himself playing Johannes Mehserle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
Sundance winner that sounds good. Maybe I can alert the few places that play the original version here. That would be earlier. thanks for the hint. I didn’t know about the story.
Oscar Grant’s family has been very supportive to the Martin Family.
________________
http://flcourier.com/2013/06/13/zimmerman-jury-selection-starts-slowly/
“Another onlooker who came from a long way was Cephus Johnson from the Oscar Grant Foundation. Johnson, who flew in from California, talked to the media about Grant, his nephew, who was killed in California by a police officer in 2009.
“We know how important it is to be embraced by families who have gone through the same things,” Johnson said.
Thanks for the film alert, Willie.
cephus johnson (oscar grant’s uncle) and my husband were working at the same IT company at that time and carpooling. he is a good man. we saw their grief up close and our family gave them as much support as we possibly could at the time. i know that my experience with this family has a lot to do with my support for the fulton/martins.
@fauxmccoy – I know several people who know Cephus and all have said he is a good man. I was touched when I saw him on the news in Florida. To fly from Oakland, CA, to Sanford, FL, in support of Trayvons family says so much about his character.
Faux are you in the Bay Area?
@big willie
yes, CJ is a damn good guy. am not in the bay area now, i moved to my (relative) home town 3 years ago when my father’s health started to fail. i did spend many years in san francisco proper as a young adult and my family spent 4-5 years in san jose for my husband’s IT career. i live about 200 miles north of the bay area now.
Man… I feel all you guys sadness tonight… I think it was a bit contagious … I’m feeling sad too…. But we gotta pick our heads up… Trayvon is depending on us… We are supposed to be fighting for him I don’t feel the strength of us tonight…but I totally understand … We are not half way through this fight… The defense definitely has had a lot more sad days than we have… Justice is coming… Trayvon is watching RIP Trayvon..
I’m not sad.
It is certainly a nail biter, but I am confident in the state. The pressure is building. When is the last time the CAC put that stupid grin on his face. Even he can see a guilty verdict and remember, he can see the jury. He sees that they are not buying into his lies. And when he stands to be witnessed, he is nervous as hell!
The state better take this weekend to regroup. They need to call Jenna back, and they need a physic expert, to dispute head banging he can do this by using sound waves. He also should have ground his own witness mr. good into the ground and impeached him to no return.
@Tee.
The time for the prosecution to do that is when the defense calls Good as their witness.
@Xena,
Re: “He also should have ground his own witness mr. good into the ground and impeached him to no return.
“The time for the prosecution to do that is when the defense calls Good as their witness.”
This is reassuring – we get a second chance at that guy, W6, yes?
But what if the defense folds after the prosecution witnesses are heard, and moves for dismissal immediately on “not proved beyond a reasonable doubt” – with half the evidence left unproduced and unheard?
Can they do that?
I had a sinking feeling after West’s endless opening argument, that their strategy was to load all the “doubts” into the opening argument (over two hours of that crap) then bail out, leaving only that stuff — all attorney arguments, thus not EVIDENCE — to sway the jury in fogen’s favor. Then the jury rewards them by finding fogen “not guilty enough” because they are so glad to get home early and out of sequestration.
I’m a farmer, Xena. I don’t know what’s going on here. Please let me know. Thanks!
That would be taking a chance because the defence could decide not to put on a case. And why now would the defence call him as a witness when they have gotten all they wanted from him the first time. He won’t be called back trust me unless he’s still under oath, which I didn’t hear the judge say to him, and unless called by the state. Mark wouldn’t risk that, he’s already been crossed and he was excellent for the defence. Anything mark wanted to question him about would have happened then no need for the witness to take the stand twice, one and done unless something new comes up.
You can’t impeach your own witness. BDLR’s strategy was very good and it will work. Put up everybody who could be an earwitness or eyewitness to that half hour and have them give their stories. Not one of them significantly deviated from this actual description:
There was a struggle.
There were two parties to the struggle.
It took place while the two parties were vertical for most of it.
When it was on the ground, it was not a “ground & pound” but it was still a struggle.
Fogen got up after the shot was fired.
Fogen was not significantly hurt when he got up.
The police came.
NO WAY Fogen’s self-defense claim fits into this frame. That shit will not play.
Now, all earwitnesses and eyewitnesses have locked themselves in to the statements they have testified to and none of them can risk making up a whole new narrative. PERIOD.
Now forensics proves the tightened-up version of the events:
Fogen sighted Trayvon Martin and called NEN saying Trayvon Martin was a person who should be apprehended.
Fogen expressed his ill will towards Trayvon.
Fogen chased Trayvon both in the car and then on foot, after admitting that Trayvon ran from him.
Fogen had no alternate rational reason for exiting his car other than to find and apprehend Trayvon Martin.
Fogen chased Trayvon down on foot and a struggle ensued.
Fogen may have sustained minor injuries. He killed Trayvon.
With a depraved mind, Fogen failed to try to render aid to the victim after the victim was immobilized on the ground.
It’s a Q.E.D.
What I think the prosecution is doing in not chasing every rat down its hole is this: THEY ARE SPARING THE SPD. THEY ARE DELIBERATELY NOT LETTING US SEE ALL THE EVIDENCE OR HEAR THE WHOLE STORY for the express purpose of protecting the SPD from the feds and from other repercussions. Because if we were to learn the WHOLE story, the SPD would have to fall; they could not survive and keep playing their game.
I agree with everything you said, Malisha. They want this conviction, but they will not use evidence that would implicate the SPD. I knew that for sure when Bernie jumped out of his seat to object to the emails GZ wrote to Bill Lee, in which he complimented Dorival.
I could be wrong but I think Good is already dismissed. Wouldn’t they have to subpena him again?
No, it cannot be done by sound waves. What we see now is what I experienced as a nine year old, when I was startled by my own voice on tape. Even the voices are different in the phone call then on the stand. Certain frequencies carry further than others. I doubt that the sound we speak about here would carry very far. But no doubt witness 6 would have heard it. Although defense will argue it only started when he went inside, where he didn’t even hear the screams anymore. The problem they have is how did they get from the cement to the grass, while at the same time Fogen had to shoot since his head was smashed against cement and he feared to loose consciousness?
Don’t pin too much on one single witness, there will be a lot more. I hope we will get a Skype connection with his teacher.
Why did my parents marry in July 6, 1948? I have to go there and will miss 5 days. I wonder how I can manage to both follow the trial and get up to date at the same time, without forgetting about sleeping. 😉
Happy Anniversary to your parents! Since 1948? 65 years? That is quite the accomplishment. Have a great time with them!
So far all I have seen from the defense are those 2 blown up pictures that MOM can not seem to keep his hands off. They do not compare to a bullet to the heart and soon the jury will see through their game, if they have not already. Goode is the only one that claims to have seen Trayvon on top of GZ even though he was only one foot out the door and onto the patio with a light that only illuminates the concrete slab. I am sure Bernie was setting him up for cross when he testifies for the defense. There is no way that this is all he seen or heard if he did not dial 911 until after the gunshot but is trying to make it seem as though he was dialing on hold at the time of the gunshot. I do not remember if they mentioned any specific times although I remember MOM asking about the call aligning with Jenna’s and how he could not be heard. If he had not stepped completely out of the house, how could she see him from her screened in porch that she claimed to not have left? I will have to look through the crime scene photos again, but I doubt she would be able to see him from her enclosure.
Bernie got very important information from this witness, John Good (JG), that is damning to the CAC:
(1) JG was the closest witness to the struggle and yet he NEITHER SAW NOR HEARD ANY BANGING OF CAC’S HEAD. No other witness did either. This is HUGE — this is the ONLY witness that says he saw the struggle on the sidewalk (so this would be the ONLY opportunity for headbanging in the timeline), and yet Bernie had him EXPLICITLY answer that JG witnessed NO headbanging movements and NO headbanging sounds (O’dirty even assisted with establishing that JG heard NO sounds of banging, loud or soft!!).
(2) Bernie elicited JG’s explanation of his different testimonies of “MMA”. It’s ALL good testimony for the State! JG said he witnessed no face punches, no fist contact, no headbanging — this all comports with forensic evidence and exposes CAC’s lies. JG testified that he saw no gun (which we all now know CAC had in his hand) — which highlights that JG could not see what was actually going on (i.e. unarmed kid in death struggle against man pointing a gun at him) and led him to false assumptions (eg. that TM was dominating in the struggle — JG sounded SHOCKED on the 911 call that the black male was the one laying dead on the ground).
(3) The MMA “beat down,” “ground and pound,” etcetera was language that may have originated with Serino. JG clearly saw no blows or strikes — his testimony was that he saw (from the back) that [TM] was moving his arms in a struggle (not a surprise that someone struggling with an armed attacker would be moving his arms!). And BOOM!, later in the day, the KILLER is documented as extensively practiced in MMA! HUGE!
(4) JG said “MMA came to mind because of the straddle position.” We now know that the person straddling is NOT dominating the struggle if the other guy has a loaded gun pointing at his victim’s chest. The whole “straddling” issue also sets the stage (and the trap) for the duhfense to show how TM only saw the gun at this point (CAC had to have threatened TM with it before this time b/c if CAC was being straddled the gun would not be visible nor reachable). The duhfense will have to demonstrate how CAC unholstered his gun while laying on it and being straddled.
(5) This testimony is very supportive of the State’s case! And Bernie made the witness UNIMPEACHABLE by allowing him to reconcile differing (or recanted or clarified) statements.
The State is painting the pictures with the evidence. Then the storyline and timeline will connect all the dots. The Truth will be evident when the pieces are put together. Connect the dots in CAC’s many versions and all you have is a tangled web of self-serving lies that do not fit the evidence. That’s how we know he’s guilty. And HE has known from the first moment that he is guilty, otherwise he wouldn’t have felt the need to lie.
The State is doing an excellent job of extracting important testimony that can be matched up with available evidence.
I’m not understanding why it’s not a big deal that West acknowledged that Zimmerman was on the phone when the first witness came out. we thought that was a phone in that picture all along and his defenders said we were crazy. Zimmerman told the story of what happened after he pulled the trigger at least 10 times, on tape, with numerous variations, and never once mentioned that he was suddenly able to find his phone and try (or succeeded) in calling someone.
Phone records I hope they are a part of this case but who know with bernie
Seriously?
The phone records are entered into evidence & sitting on the back burner simmering. I posted about the grin on the witness’s face when he told the court (the defense) that the second set of phone records were only saved for 6 months. Mom had no idea of this & I believe it is important. Keep the faith, but pray without ceasing. If CAC isn’t convicted, it will be because karma isn’t done trying to school the lad. imho, I remember OJ, I was really disturbed when he got off but it didn’t help him much, karma always catches up, the only way to avoid it is to not exist on this plane.
@hotheadpaisen. Think of today’s testimony when watching this. In all of his statements, GZ omits using his phone after killing Trayvon, as well as having the photo of his head taken. The State is connecting the dots.
He also omits his interaction with Selma. He didn’t want the police to find her.
Did I get it right, John said he got GZ’s phone after it was dropped? And pocketted it?
Not a bright man, is that John. Running all the way round his building end, over to his garage, into his garage and to the house entry and getting a bag from his wife?
When someone was dying? And what about the Lauer residence, or any otherr closer to get a bag, without going around the building?
I thought I heard John Guy say during openning statements that GZ and Trayvon were both on the phone moments before the shot?
I wasn’t sure about the phone, and only later accepted it. And I am not a Fogen supporter, never was.
Right hotheadpaisen.
How can a person that thought they would black out 10 seconds ago be able to find the phone and dial the number with blood in his eyes as he described. But when we look at the picture taken before the EMT get there, there is no blood above the nostrils.
For MOM to suggest that all the blood from a broken nose was swallowed is some crazy mess. I am sure that every one of those jurors have had a bloody nose at some point in their life and would know that you would not swallow that much blood, you would choke on before you could. This means you would spit it out to keep from choking, the normal response.
The fact that his vitals were normal is very scary. If I am in the smallest of disagreements with someone, I get all flustered and nervous. I know damn well that if I were in a physical confrontation with someone, they would certainly be concerned about my blood pressure.
That dude is scary, the jury may want his ass off the street unless they think he will be able to rid the world of young Black men. They may think their city was disrupted by the protest because they could not get to their favorite restaurants was crushing then, they will be in for a big surprise later.
He (MOM) obviously needs to apply the same common sense he asked JG to use when asked him if it seemed logical the person on bottom would call for help. GZ claims to have been sucker punched in the nose first, followed by 20-30 more g&p blows, where’d all that blood and saliva that surely would be all over his face and on Trayvon’s hands get to? Funny how the rest of his face survived that savage beating.
Thank you Professor. I was wondering if I was watching the same trial as others.
Don West spent 5 hours + trying to break a teenage girl and FAILED badly. She bitch-slapped him 40 ways to Sunday!
I saw this described on some site I won’t be going back to as:
she is SO DUMB she couldn’t give a straight answer, and had to have everything asked 5 times and still couldn’t understand it.
Well West gave her plenty of opportunity to educate the jury how GZ followed Trayvon.
And proved she had an impeccable memory, unlike fogen who loses his when convenient though, he claims to know everyone who lives in the complex but not the streets.
I loved how West kept saying to Rachel “and Trayvon was running…” does that sound like a kid who wanted to confront someone who was following him? NO.
She-bang. I hope the jury bitch-slaps Fogen and his defense team forty ways to Sunday also.
Judge Ferrer (sp) explained why they had on the witnesses they did today. Apparently there is a law (and he gave what it was) in Florida that says if you bypass witnesses that could be witnesses for the beneficial – I can’t word it right, but if the prosecution put them on and the defense didn’t, it might look like they were hiding something. So these are like “fact-finding” witnesses and yes, they can be more helpful to the defense, but several things were obtained and it would have been worse for the prosecution to not have them. But we still have more to go. It ain’t over yet.
Although I heard that it didn’t seem like a couple of the jurors were impressed at all with Rachel 😦
I hope jurors are intelligent enough to see where Rachel’s accounting coincides with accounts of others.
I have to admit I would be slightly more comfortable with a man on the jury. I may be completely wrong though, and some of these woman have a grasp of natural sciences. It feels this is really what is needed in this case.
The problem is that Rachel is not very articulate, but I surely hope that at least some ladies grasped the fact that you do not start a fight with someone else on the phone. Or that you much less are lying in ambush to assault someone with someone else on the phone. But one never knows.
The problem is that in this context West lured the statement out of her that he would not have kept her on the phone if he was planning an ambush. But I surely hope she has slightly started to see through West’s histrionics.
Exactly! If Rachel was never on the phone with Trayvon, the state would not have had her as part of their case. There is plenty of other evidence that tells the tale of that night. People are giving up hope without hearing the case all the way through. We still have not gotten to forensics, the ME, the detectives, the videos, the rest of the phone records, the other witnesses and the killer himself etc.
I am totally convinced that he will pay for the ultimate sin because he has gotten away with all the others in the past. You eventually will get caught!
Those women were not going to relate to RJ because they are from a different culture. They can not relate to Sabrina and Tracy.
You don’t know that. I am from a different culture. All I see is a young girl being badgered by an entitled white male racist and misogynist. And by the way that young girl kicked that guy’s ass.
What I heard was that the jurors were very attentive during the entire time Rachel was on the stand.
@ amsterdam1234 you are so correct, that 19 yr old girl kick his butt up & down that courtroom. He so badly wanted to impeach her, he just could not pin her down. I laughed all day. West taunted her by saying on national tv that she couldn’t read cursive over and over, asking her what’s wrong with her she seem different, & by asking her do she speak English when he knew that this young lady was trilingual. I never laughed & cried so much in one day.
@Tee
At the end of her testimony I was in awe. I don’t believe this girl has any disabilities. The self-control she displayed that 2nd day, the way she recognized every little change in wording West used to trip her up, her amazing memory, all show a very sharp mind.
Trayvon knew how to pick his friends.
I heard that 2 of the jurors “appeared” horrified by her. But the others were intent to where one was just like bouncing back from West to Rachel, to West to Rachel like a ping-pong game.
Someone on a local talk show here said you have to keep in mind she is 19 and acted 19. If those women on the jury have teenage girls, they have seen these behaviors before. They may not like them, but they are familiar with them, for sure. Is the courtroom the place for this type of behavior? No. But what are we talking about here? A case of a TEENAGER who was shot and killed by a wordshavenonamefor. So in some way, that behavior DOES belong in the courtroom. Hopefully it will remind the jurors that this was NOT a “fair fight” between adults. It was about a TEENAGER killed by a grown MMA trained CCW carrying wordshavenonamefor.
Well, said Rachel. Some may remember what it felt like when they were questioned by West. What we would need to have a better grasp of their media interviews and voir dire.
If I remember correctly, witness 29 challenged O’Mara’s comparison between criminal and private law. Remember Apples and Oranges? That was brave.
I agree with Amsterdam. I am white, highly educated, live in an upper upper middle class area. I relate to Sybrina and Tracy on a gut level, literally. My stomach turns itself into knots when I see them speaking, or not speaking, and my heart aches. These reactions are physical, not intellectual.
And as far as cursive goes, I have two teenage sons who have been educated in the kind of suburban public schools that send 99% of their graduates to college, and some to Ivy League and other selective colleges, as well as a private school where some of the kids come from families that own private jets. I can tell you that cursive is NOT taught or expected any more. To my disappointment. The kids print or type on the computer.
I can’t believe that RJ was belittled for not being able to read cursive. When I have written notes to my kids in cursive, they were not able to read them.
Woow! there is no way to tell what a jury is thinking many jouralist have written that the jury seem dislike a witness or seem not to believe them and it was just the opposite…unfortuantly this is a wait and see situation…I agree with the professor this was a good day for the prosecution, no proof of George having any head injury other than the little cat scratches no proof of head banging or pound and ground. What we did find out is that George is literally full of shit.
I am a white stay at home mom from redneck land, and I could not have more respect for DeeDee. She schooled West every time he opened his mouth. And as far as her demeanor, attitude and culture, one of my daughter’s friends reminds me a lot of DeeDee. Guess where the friend works now? NASA.
I saw a tweet by a journalist that said one juror was nodding in agreement with Rachel, so we’ll just have to wait and see.
Hi, everyone! It’s been a long time. I had to take a break from this case, because I couldn’t listen to GZ’s voice one more time. It’s hard enough seeing his face. I tried to follow the case closely again recently, until I heard his voice again. I couldn’t reach the close button fast enough. Tonight, I made myself watch Dee Dee’s testimony knowing ahead of time that it would make me cry and knowing that I would have to see way too much of GZ’s face. She was great. I don’t think her testimony was necessary to win the case, but I wanted her to be great in front of an all woman jury to help make sure there are enough nails in the coffin. I don’t want the all woman jury to view GZ as the victim. I want them to view Trayvon as the victim.
I thought the Casey Anthony case was a slam dunk. But, it turned out that the jury wasn’t smart enough and was too easily confused by all of the lying by Baez, including being confused by Baez’s “re-defining” of Judge Perry’s final jury instructions.
I think this case is even more of a slam dunk. I really hope that this Florida jury is smart enough. Florida juries really need to stop finding murderers of children “not guilty.” Here’s a clue that I wish the Anthony jury paid attention to. If every juror busts out crying over their “not guilty” verdict, then they actually do have reasonable doubt. Try to be real. Try to have faith in your gut. It’ll help you see the forest through the trees, aka defense “tactics.”
The prosecution is doing a good job but I don’t have any faith in that jury.
“I don’t think her testimony was necessary” I can not disagree more. Up to now, her testimony is an absolute necessity. It is not sufficient though. The state needs some kind of corroboration.
Rachel testified in a very credible and flawless way. The prosecution needed that. The opposite would have been devastating. This is why a good performance from Rachel was an absolute necessity. And she made an excellent one.
While I don’t think Rachel’s testimony was a legal necessity, it certainly brought Trayvon’s dilemma to life.
And her discussion with West should have opened some eyes – she gave the defense a lathering about their tactics when she told West “that is retarded, sir.”
here were other pros witnesses who looked as if they wanted to say something rude during their cross by the defense, but only Rachel had the nerve to tell it like it is.
White privilege = Jenna Lauer lied in court & nothing is done. Don West discuss witnesses with girls & make jokes about them online.
true dat
Nothing is done because Bernie is not doing his job. Had he jus looked down or gotten assistance he would have seen that she had 72 retweets, that mean either she tweeted or she retweeted someone. It said zero because she deleted them but you still could see that she used it. And if he listened to her tape interview before he put her on the stand that day he would have hear her say that she heard talking. ” like what are you doing” .
I was thinking they weren’t done with her yet, I was hoping Bernie could still impeach her after Corey got the twitter screenshot that proves she lied under oath.
I believe she is still under subpoena.
He has time to research and get his facts straight. He also have in his hands the information to impeach her, will he use it wisely is the question.
Will anything come of that?
Is Mr. West in trouble with the court?
In any event, it undid some of the PR optics they shamelessly fabricated. After the jury was sequestered, though.
Will news people blow this off?
It reflects badly on West, I mean is this how you raise your children. I wish he could get in trouble but how do you prove he knew she was going to post the insult or that she intended to post the insult or that she had even created the picture. Even if he knew she created the picture does not mean he told her to post it anywhere. However, this has hurt his repuation as well as his behavoir in court. CTH attacks Sabrina and Tracy with lies of how they raised Travon we get to see how West raised is daughters to be mean girls.
He had to give it to her, because it is his cell, right? Or does she use his phone to post to Instagram ? Maybe it’s her phone, I don’t care, I’m not wasting my energy on him
Also, a glaring example of how racism is actively used today, FT interview in which he calls RJ, ‘Precious’. Now, taking away the fact that this is a young girl and like all young girl might have insecurity with their appearance, this would likely devastate her. But, his explanation afterwards. He knows what he meant, we now what it meant yet, he is able to explain it away on something like, it was a term used as an endearment to him in the past. Meanwhile he has emotionally assaulted this girl in a racially negative manner, dehumanizing her. But, the cry is, you guys see racism everywhere, even when it is not. The problem is, just because it is disguised or explained away doesn’t mean that its intent isn’t/wasn’t there, being practiced, openly.
It’s a very specific combination of racisms, if it is. She is not challenged because she is black, she is challenged because she was on the phone with Trayvon that night. That’s why they exploit her weaknesses.
Strictly there would be a couple of legitimate questions concerning her, I have no problem with that. But he went way beyond that. And I do not think it can have escaped the attention of the ladies.
Concerning one specific type of “racism”, the feeling you are more clever and can based on that alone get someone in trouble, who you feel is not as bright as you. Manipulating to say what you want to have on the records?
I am not sure if their repeated statements how hard it is to understand her, is indeed some type of racism. Is anything but the sign of their frustration that they could not find a serious contradiction. Yes, occasionally she is hard to understand. But I would really like to get the transcripts of the deposition, since I think he lured her into a trap to admit to something she never said.
He makes it really apparent that it is ultimately all about winning, the truth does not matter. What disturbed me most is when they tried to grasp the authority over her own words. Tried to disown her of her own speech. That was the most sickening moment for me.
I really hope that West’s arrogance somehow mirrored by his daughters will ultimately do him in. Or since that is maybe not the ideal way to put it, his strategy will fail. People are sensitive to this stuff. He cannot get rid of the phone records after all. Histrionics, West, O’Mara?
Remember how heavily they used the MMA style of assault on Fogen while knowing all the time that he in fact trained in MMA. Hypocrites?
OK, who was Precious? A young girl who overcame nearly overwhelming difficulties and who was downright heroic. She had AIDS as a result of being RAPED and yet the last words we hear from her (voice-over) are: I have AIDS but my baby doesn’t. I’m going to be the best mother I can be to my baby. What’s not to admire in this youngster?
And who TF is Frank Taaffe? What is his occupation, anybody know? He has some inglorious things in his past:
All three children reflect bad fathering from him
Two died from it
Wife and daughter have permanent restraining orders against him
He’s a drunk with DWIs all over the place and short-term vision
What is his occupation? Anybody know?
He’s ignorant; doesn’t even know to lock his doors and close his windows when he leaves his house.
He’s stupid; says “Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down low” and then denies saying it. Trayvon doesn’t WEAR his pants down low.
He’s a dumb unattractive bully and an attention whore. He calls one of his neighbors a “bitch” because she obviously doesn’t like him around her residence.
Is HE qualified to comment on someone else’s intelligence, honesty, or quality? That low-class disgraceful eyesore?
Malisha, you forgot to call Francis a creepy-ass cracker.
So freaking sad. I thought that Dee Dee was perfect and what ol’ liver lips wanted her to say is that she felt guilty because she knew Trayvon was going to beat GZ up and that is why she couldn’t call the police. That is retarded, sir!!
Yet, you get this cocky bitch on the stand and her words are never disputed! I can say that as a woman because her body language told me everything I needed to know about her. She wouldn’t know how to be honest. Wouldn’t buy a house from her if my life depended on it.
It’s a sad day when we as black have to now adjust yet again what & how we treach our children especially our boys, & Frankly I’m tired of it. We as blacks have been our children far to long where not to go, what they shouldn’t say & do. Damn now we have to add some more crap to the mix. Walk in groups now, don’t run, don’t fight back, don’t argue with any One, All of which put our sons lives in danger. My baby can’t run when he feels danger, he can’t fight back, he can’t even argue outside his home because iphe may be murdered. I don’t even know how this is alright,
I’m starting to see this Tee. What can I do as one individual to improve things?
Wish that I knew, Im just trying right now to calm myself down. It’s sad when black mothers have to fear for their sons lives every time they leave out of the door. We move out of the inner city to give our kids a fighting chance, because we Don’t want them gunned down in the middle of the street by some fool doing a drive-by shooting. We head to the suburbs thinking that its safer only to learn that the violence you were so fearful of in the inner city is only 100 yrds outside your door & that bullet didn’t come from the gun of some gang banging thug it came from your neighbor, the neighbourhood watch captain. Her pain is to real & she blames herself for sending her boy away. As a mother I know that is what he is carrying in her head & heart
I am a white mother, and have four nonwhite children (Asian, Hispanic, and AA)
I am with you Tee, this whole murder has scared the living crud out of me.
I am seeing it too Tee. I don’t think the majority of white Americans are racist. I do think the majority is blind to the daily realities of racism non whites have to deal with every day.
I am hoping that this case has opened eyes. It is very difficult to understand what people mean with expressions like ” walking while black” if you don’t live with that reality. But Trayvon’s murder must have brought that home.
I wish we could reach each other and support each other, on the street, in the store, at work, in school the way we do here on this blog.
I think the way issues are raised cause many white people to go on the defense. I said most, not all, because I don’t want to generalize. Generalizing is a big problem. Good example is for people to look at DeeDee and say AA’s are illiterate and unable to speak properly. In the late 70’s and early 80’s I felt the resentment of whites because affirmative action. They found ways to let me know like one guy’s daughter said she couldn’t graduate because the Black kids were allowed to register first. A white male recent accounting graduate from the school said it wasn’t true and that the students were signing up for a special program. My coworker didn’t want to hear that. Another guy said his daughter couldn’t get into a nursing program with her low GPA but they were letting blacks in. Eventually they let her in the program; however she was dropped because of poor grades. He neglected to tell me that but I found out from someone else.
There is no easy fix for racism; however we should not respond with racism. The problem is mental and spiritual and cannot be fought with racism. It will surely backfire and create a greater divide.
The Lawmamkers, that are mostly Lawyers, rig the laws aganist blacks and protects mostly whites. This is the Modern Day Jim Crow. Blacks are now enslaved through the bogus Justice System. They make all these laws so they can arrest, detain, jail, kill black men and women. Don’t believe me….ask TRAYVON! If these 6 women don’t convict GZ, it will be a sad day in America.
I’m white with mixed kids – they know damn well they’re in danger too, and one reason I got involved. The other is that early on I had a vivid dream of Trayvon trying to tell me what happened to him.
Toure did a great piece on the ‘Cycle’ on this a few weeks back. And what you said points out something about the state of mind of Trayvon Martin. First, he was thinking he couldn’t run. If you notice, he didn’t run away as soon a Zimmerman started acting crazy. Second, I understand why Trayvon did not call the police. I have heard so many people say, “well if he were scared he should have called the police.” That neglects understanding of the reality of why many black people, especially our black males , do not trust the police. It is perfectly logical given this history that the police didn’t seem to be a viable option for Trayvon Martin. It may not have even crossed his mind. I’m a black woman, and I am not sure it would have crossed my mind.
Here it Toure’s piece.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/msnbc-toure-proper-on-negro-fatigue_n_3423091.html
I wonder how many adults have the local police phone number programmed into their cells phones when they travel, let alone children. If Trayvon had 911 capabilities on his cell phone, it would have been connected to his home area.
I also want to say again that 17 year olds probably don’t think about getting killed by a creepy guy. They probably think the worst case scenarios are like being beaten up for the money they have in their pockets or maybe rape. The upper teen years are also often the times when kids are just starting to think like adults, but in an immature, know it all type manner and in a I have the world in front of me manner. I’m not saying that Trayvon was like this. I’m just trying to say that most teenagers in the situation that Trayvon found himself in probably aren’t thinking creepy guy might want to to kill them. If Trayvon really thought creepy guy might kill him, he probably would have done something like run a mile at top speed to a public place.
@longtimegeek
I did some research to find out the gps capabilities of Trayvon and GZ’s phone. While researching that, I found out that all providers are required by FEC, to be compliant with the second phase of the E911 system.
What that means is that when you dial 911 from your cell phone anywhere in the US, the providers are required to have a mechanism in place to locate from where your phone is dialing 911, and redirecting your call to the 911 center, responsible for the area where your call is originating from. The E911 system will also provide location information to the 911 operator.
If GZ had called 911 instead of the nen, we would’ve had GPS data for his phone.
That was the first thing about his murder that struck me. You know there is something wrong with your system, when AA people are hesitant to call the police.
I think Trayvon didn’t call the police because he didn’t think he needed to until it was too late. Remember, he tried everything he could to avoid the situation. He ignored the man kept walking, When it was clear this man was going to continue to follow him, he ran to ‘try to lose him’ and thought that he had. So, he got back on the phone with Rachel, afraid but thinking he is almost home so he should be okay. I think that by the time he saw fogen behind him again, fogen was advancing so fast that there was nothing left to do but prepare for the confrontation that fogen was determined to have.
As they say, “When seconds count, your police are only minutes away”.
You better speak! A person can stalk & chase you down, shoot you dead & claim they were in fear of their life and get away with it? I have such incredible sadness tonight.
I also fear what I am seeing in this trial is if you see a black male walking at any hour, you have a right to consider him suspicious, you have a right to follow him, you have a right to confront him and you have a right take his life if you start to shit your pants.
The written article from Toure.
Good points, yes one should use one’s mind and not respond to insults. Incidentally DD’s (I am used to this by now, also now know she choose it herself). Her “guilt” may well have to do with questions like, had he called police if I hadn’t been on the phone with him at the time. Among many others, e.g. did I distract his attention?
Didn’t mean to post it i was venting. i thought I hit cancel but hit post instead. I didn’t even spell check sorry, I got to spell check typing on an I pad with auto-correct.
It was a good post. I am glad you hit the “wrong” button. Many of us feel gut wrenching pain for Trayvon’s family as well as intense fear for our own children. Your venting was right on the mark.
No kidding. Can’t run or you’ll be thought to have done something and fleeing the scene. Can’t walk slowly, because you’ll be thought to be casing the area and suspicious. Can’t get caught in the rain and take shelter under anything because you’ll be thought to be breaking into somewhere. Can’t be a teen because that will be thought to be a prelude to becoming a violent thug or proof of being a violent thug. No matter what, if there is a way to paint you negatively it will be the first consideration, not the last.
exactly my feelings, Sabrina. 😉 The most important thing to realized is that whatever you do can be perceived as wrong or suspicious with that type of mindset.
There is an enormous amount of you can do and you can’t do type of arguments in the opposite camp.
Tee, there are no specific rules for every situation you can ever teach. The run not run is a perfect example. What drew me to this story is my own experience that if one suspects you everything you will do, may well only confirm his prejudice.
Let’s a assume, you boy runs. Result in the Fogen type of minds: Oh, I was right, he noticed I discovered him.
Your boy does not run. Ah, he wants to trick me by playing he is not at all concerned that I know what his intent is.
Indeed, and for our young black males being in a group doesn’t even help. I remember a local story about someone calling the police on a group of black males, running, in “matching” sweats. The caller thought they were some kind of gang,and was wondering if there had been a crime in that immediate vicinity. There hadn’t, but the police went and checked anyway.
Turned out it was just a local school’s basketball team. Their matching “gang sweats” were practice sweats with the school’s name on it and the “running” was the mile run assigned by the coach for conditioning practice.
They never followed up with the caller. But, the comments below the article, were all about how they should have been running on the school’s track, and not through the neighborhoods. Of course, no one had a problem with the same school’s cross country track team running through the same neighborhoods, in identical practice sweats. The cross country team is predominently white.
Hi Ya Nef! We have a fine bunch of track, basketball, baseball, football, etc. running through our neighborhood all the time. They are courteous and wave. I enjoy seeing them, and I’m sure they get tired of looking at the track field all the time.
Tee, I am a white woman, and there is nothing I can say to help you. BUT, I really tried to teach my children better, and I have never seen any signs of racism in them. I hope there is not. I really tried.
Looking at Trayvon’s knuckles, i don’t think he fought back
so not fighting back may not help
conversely the killer seemed to want to detain Trayvon
can we afford to suggest to our children that they should let anyone detain them?
Little white girl here…. college student…. sick to my toes at what was done to Trayvon and what you must feel when your baby leaves the safety of your home….
It ISN’T alright Tee…. your right IT ISN’T!
I don’t know what will happen tomorrow or next week, next month or next year….all I can PROMISE you is that ~ I ~ will make EVERY effort to speak up! Try harder! Be aware! Fight for change!
When this case first became news and I got involved I remember thinking about late night runs (in our school Hoodies) to the corner store near my campus with friends to get a treat, or coffee to stay awake for cram sessions or term paper time. I remember thinking…. “I could be Trayvon”….. then as things have progressed and I have seen the HATE and vitriol …. I have realized…. “I will NEVER be Trayvon” My family may have a HUGE list of worries that go along with having a young person living in today’s society…. but one of them ISN’T that I am going to be murdered for “Walking while WHITE”
Hear, hear. It s very true. I am white. I have NEVER been racially discriminated against (gender bias, yes, but not racial for sure). I have a Hispanic son that I GET COMMENTS ON from my white neighbors are covertly and sometimes overtly racist. One told me that he was “scary” shortly after we adopted him at 10. Really? He plays with stuffed animals….
My Asian children have had the occasional joke that is distasteful from neighbors, but never concerned about them being “dangerous”. I am adopting an AA son now…most of the neighbors have not met him…Oh, trust me, overt or covert, racial comments will be met with immediate challenge. He is a beautiful child with wonderful heart and a genius mind. I will not see him face a day of snarky comments or profiling…
A lot of things went into evidence today, and much of LFs testimony was good for the State. I think this is huge, since the defense was all over it but couldn’t block the medical history. Along with the medical history came the fact that GZ was training MMA 3 times a week and since 2011. Bernie objected to a lot of her statements pertaining to speculation in cross but at least now it’s clear that GZ wasn’t afraid or concerned of injury or death. There was no shock or lingering effects just after the shooting, and he refused the ENT specialist. Severe trauma has been ruled out.
I’m not worried about John Good simply because he only saw two seconds of what happened and went back inside. If the fight lasted for a minute or so, there’s no way Trayvon could have had the upper hand for so long against someone trained in MMA. And I’m also glad that they are playing with the Trayvon on top theory. If someone is squatting you, you can’t get to a gun on your hip.
IDK what everyone else is watching but this has been a huge day for the prosecution.
@YQ. I agree. We must see the positive and keep positive. The State is running a Secretariat marathon, but confident in the evidence and the law.
I love Secretariat! I remember how exciting he was at a time (Watergate, Vietnam War withdrawal mess, and gas lines) when we really, really needed something like him to be happy about!
I guess it depends on which Triple Crown race you might be referring to, but my favorite was the longest and final race – the Belmont Stakes. Secretariat kicked ass early and no horse could keep his pace. That “tremendous machine” only kept getting stronger – with no setbacks – as he won the Belmont by 31 lengths (don’t know how accurate that is, but suffice it to say he ran the final stretch completely alone)!
I was SO hoping for a Belmont, in this trial. But I’ll be happy to settle for a Kentucky Derby or Preakness!
Take a break, and enjoy:
Will be great for a well known doctor to come on and say Lindzee was out of line and should have said she is not able to comment.
That horse was the last Tripple crown winner and, what a race that was. Wasn’t he the grand father of Alliedar (sp) I hope I spelled the name right.
@groans
i remember that, was quite young. went out to my old quarter horse and took a break from the ‘laura ingalls’ (based on the books, not the TV series) games i usually played and raced him around the pasture instead. 🙂
@ groan…. I am only 21 so I didn’t know anything about this amazing horse (I am also not an equine sports follower) I have to say that I found myself sobbing…. the beauty… the awesomeness of that amazing race…. I don’t exactly see this trial as a race to the finish but I could feel myself breathing again after what felt like a day filled with anxiety and frustration…. what I DO know is…WE will all get there…. to that finish line… TOGETHER.
YQ, he was asked how Trayvon was sitting on top and he answered on the lower part of the body. Which means Fogen would have had his arms free. But as far as I remember he always talked about approximately 10 seconds, and the way he describes what he said and saw it cannot have been 2.
That liar seen the shooting too. The other witnesses seen him out there and if he’d only put one foot out of the door, there would have been no way he could see the sidewalk from where he stood especially to make out “the light skinned guy was on the bottom”. When I see the picture taken by Manalo with Good’s patio in the background with the light on, that only proves that he could not have seen the sidewalk with clarity. He was right there at the wrestle. I think that Trayvon was able to get up from where GZ threw him to the ground but before he could take off running, GZ grabbed his shirt, put that gun to his chest and shot him in the heart. I was so glad that the jury learned that the bullet hole was under the button that Trayvon was wearing. Now if that does not make your mind think, something is wrong. That was a chilling testimony and should have sent shivers down the spines of those jurors that did not know about the button.
Praying for justice
Nellie, there may a basic feature both John and Fogen share, they both are cowards, but it does not add up to complicaty for me without further proof.
He sounds honestly concerned about the fact that one of these two is dead during his 911 call. And he cannot go back to change his behavior. I feel a slight amout of pity for him. Seriously could he have expected that one of them shot the other a few seconds after? He witnessed a physical fight, you do not think about weapons immediately in such a scenario. What he should have done was staying out there and making sure they realized he was there, shouted to his “financee” to bring him a phone, and remaining there to witness. that would have changed everything. But it’s too late for that now.
Question, will the jurors get to see and hear Fogen’s videotaped lies and inconsisties?
I think so when Serino takes the stand.
Yes.
Hi professor,
Do you think the FBI is going to find TM civil rights were violated?
I have read that there has been a lot of corruption with the SPD. After all is said and done do you think any heads will roll and the Feds clean out some of the corruption? I am hoping something positive comes out of all of this.
Given the replacement of the Chief, I doubt we will see any more changes.
@Professor
Good morning. Please if you will answer a few of my questions?.
Can West and daughters ‘Celebrating Stupid’ picture be brought to the Courts’ attention
I am not sure what the proper legal word would be. So here goes.
Can Judge Nelson question West about his integrity, bias and respect of W8 Rachael if he intends to question her again..
If W8 Rachael is called back by the Defense, can JN prohibit West from further questoning W8 Rachael?
Thank you.
No, he did not do this vile stunt in court and I do not believe it reflects unfavorably on anyone except him.
Thank you Professor.
BTW I no longer am concerned about his health, his speech is fine, although he looses track of thought frequently. His mind is not as fast as his reflex to deceive.
Gosh something funny came to mind using the phrase Ole’ Sparky…
Yippy!
Thanks for answering that because I was so worried that they would not. I also thought, well can the detectives talk about their interaction with him just as everyone else has. Some people are just not too positive about this case which makes me nervous. I steadfastly believe that he will be convicted as long as the jury is honest.
@10:13 fogen says he’s frustrated…. hmmm could that mean anything regards to m2
The stae should use something just like this to impeach Fogen. It is allowed I saw it done in the jodi arsis trial when the defence edit their texts and calls so travis bad words were just shown and heard it was powerful.
I’m disgusted with Jeremy, I don’t buy he didn’t know GZ. What warp person take a picture of a dead kid and doesn’t check the kid to see if he alive? Who would want a picture like that? What happened after the murder from some these people are weird. Z never met this guy, and ask a complete stranger to call his wife, come on! Jeremy, his wife, Jonh Goodman all knew Z and they’re not telling the truth, well the whole truth. W6, was not certain about a lot of things. Idk how close he was to the fight, but he couldn’t hear if the guy on top was striking the man on bottom, come on. He’s not tell the full story. People know more than what they’re telling
some of these people
I’m disgusted with Jeremy and John Good both. Birds of a feather? If they don’t know George (big if) they certainly know FT.
Trent said from the very beginning John and Jeremy were liars.
I finally ran across Trent’s videos and there is never a dull moment listening to his commentary. Is he a poster on this board? I like his style.
Did Jeremy testify today, too?
Yep.
Jeremy lied today.
When did Jeremy testify? I only saw Jon Manola and John Good.
I watched all day, and I don’t recall seeing Jeremy!
Mispoke I meant John lied.
I do not remember seeing Jeremy testify either. Isn’t that Jenna’s husband? I think people are confusing the 1st names of the witnesses.
How about asking a guy who just killed someone, “What caliber?” There are some cold people in Twin Lakes.
Downright frigid.
A person who has killed someone and, A CHILD at that.
Regarding the guy who was first on the scene and took pictures, his wife whose prior testimony about the smaller/younger guy (Trayvon) being on the bottom was shot down by MOM because she said she judged Trayvon’s age/size on younger pictures of Trayvon on the news, did she not see the painfully thin 17-year-old Trayvon lying in the backyard? Did she and her husband not discuss the approximate age of the deceased kid her husband took a picture of?
I have thought something was fishy about her testimony when she said she relied on pictures of a younger/smaller Trayvon when she said the younger/smaller person was on the bottom during the “fight”. Then when I realized her husband took pictures and was first on the scene after Trayvon was shot I wondered why this husband and wife did not discuss the age and size of Trayvon and how she did not see the pictures of the deceased think Trayvon her husband took.
I don’t get it.
I’m with ya jm. Exactly what I was thinking after her testimony. They were first responders to a murder scene, and she never bothered to watch or read extended news feeds on this case. She’s known that she’d be a witness for some time, and she wasn’t even curious as to who Trayvon or fogen were, and how they came to meet that fatefull night? Really?
I’m Quite puzzled by the witness who called Shelly for George. what kind of person comes upon a dead body and his only question is ‘what kind of gun did you use?’ that’s fucked up
A person with no heart or human compassion. Neither of those idiots tried to see if that child was breathing or needed CPR and neither called for an ambulance right away.
None of them tried to help Trayvon when he was alive…………….,
he’s the guy who is dumb enough to not want to look out his window when there is obvious a fight just outside, but upon hearing shots, goes running right out there with camera and flashlight. a looky-lou and then sells his pics to ABC — the worst kind of looky-lou.
They didn’t rush to the child on the ground laying with his face in the dirt…. they didn’t turn him over to discover if he was still breathing…. could they do anything to help him…even hold his hand until police or paramedics arrived….tell him not to be afraid that help was on the way…ask him if there was anyone they could call for him….what IF he had been able to speak? What if he had been able to TELL them what happened?
We know NONE of this could have happened…. Trayvon was already DEAD…. but THEY didn’t know that…. not then.
Why weren’t they asked? “Why didn’t you go to the boy face down in the dirt?” I imagine the LIE would have been they were “afraid”…. but not “afraid” to rush to the man with the GUN? Not afraid to find out if HE was OK?
I just don’t understand… I CAN’T UNDERSTAND….. and it isn’t only the man that called the killers wife… it is ALL of them…. NOT ONE WITNESS went to that child…. not one.
Had that been my neighborhood, lets just say if someone walk down the street and farted, they could tell you to the second what time it happened, what way the wind was blowing and mphs, and everything else you wanted to know.
I think some of you are confusing Jon Manalo,the Filipino guy who is married to Jeannee (who agreed that “the person who stood up was the person on top”), with Jeremy, the doofus husband of Jenna Lauer. Jeremy hasn’t testified.
Charlie you mix up Jeremy with Jon it feels.
Concerning the images. I think he may have immediately planned to make money with it. Obviously he had to wait till he told it to LE. It feels it tells a little bit about him that he did it at the time he did.
The witnesses claim they didn’t know Z!
Why would a person leave the safety of his house to go outside and interact with a killer whom he doesn’t know from Adam, but who is still armed and just shot another person dead?
Who does that??!!
NOBODY. THEY KNEW Z AND FELT SAFE TO GO OUTSIDE AND TALK TO HIM.
They can’t admit they knew him because then they’d have to explain why they didn’t do more to stop Z.
If I were a juror, this would make me cast doubt on any mitigating evidence they present in Z’s favor.
Idk how close he was to the fight,
20 to 30 feet
I’m really worried fogen will get off. The talking heads astound me. Are we watching the same trial??????? I am middle aged and white. The racism I have been exposed to in this trial is like nothing I would have ever imagined. I am also very alarmed about the Supreme Court ruling on voting rights. I am energized to help voters who are slighted. I wish I knew what to do.
The SCOTUS needed to watch this trial before striking down the voting rights laws!
Can you just imagine what it must feel like to BE black? All this racism, and this ain’t the 50’s or 60’s.
And you’re right about all the talking heads. I’m a AA woman nearing middle age, and all this and the treatment of POTUS has me wondering if 100 (or less) years from now, we’ll be back in chains.
If you think about all the minority men and youth already in jail or prison or otherwise in that system, we’re already on that path. Prisons are using the inmates to work for corporations. Everyone makes money, but the inmates work for next to nothing, much like the overseas workers. Corporations may bring more jobs home just to put them in the prisons. This was happening in GA 15 years ago (maybe before, but my knowledge is from the late 90s)
@ Bettykath
Yep.
I agree with you looolooo, this country is regressing and not really progressing in race relations. Racism in North America will “NEVER” die. It is like a family heirloom, that is passed down from generation to generation.
Some people in this country, never think or learn. What I’m speaking of is 9/11. This nation should have really tried to mend the racist attitude by doing away with racism.
Some people will make a remark about how bad the world is, but it’s not that the world is bad, it’s the people in the world (some of them) who make it a bad place.
@ lady couldn’t have said it better myself.
“It is like a family heirloom, that is passed down form generation to generation”.
I am also very concerned about the obvious slippery decline we are taking in this country, For me racism reared its ugly head further out of its hole when President Obama was elected and the republican party’s platform was only to make sure he was a one term president. Then him being called a liar, then members of the black caucus being spit at as they walked by and I could list instance after instance.
This case has shined a beacon of light on racism and hatred in this country. I read what people write who never knew Trayvon anymore than I did and call him a thug who deserved to die and all he had to do was tell the nice white man what he was doing there but instead brutally attacked him. I pray that Trayvon is with us in spirit and will continue to shine his light on that courtroom and let his story be told.
These folks who are so blinded by their hate will never examine whether Trayvon had any rights to confront someone who was obviously following him or even to protect and defend himself to the best of his ability. He is dead not because he did anything wrong but because the man who was following him had every intention of not letting this boy get away.
George stands proudly whenever a witness is asked to identify him. He still does not get that he took a human life. He still shows no remorse. He might as well of killed the neighbors dog for all his God fearing life is worth.
I am at a point where I can no longer watch the trial because I feel as though I am participating in a very bad game. I do apologize if I appear jaded by the system but it lacks any real passion for Trayvon’s life. The opening statement by Mr. Guy was beautiful but trial is like a train slowly running out of steam. I pray there is a magnificent ending but I am skeptical. I hope BDLR surprises all of us but not going to hold my breath.
The number of hate groups tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center has been growing steadily (67%) since 2000.
Of these groups, the Patriot group has been growing even faster (813%) since Obama was elected. See the article:
http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism
@heartofhearts, you took the words out of my mouth/keyboard. Foge sits there so prim and proper like Little Lord Fauntleroy (sp) looking as though he’s done nothing wrong. I too have a bad feeling about the outcome of this trial.
I don’t understand why Jenna wasn’t impeached about her statement of “what are you doing around here” and, I wonder if impeachment of her is yet to come.
Don West has the GALL to criticize Rachel Jeantel about culture when his own daughters are disrespectful self-entitled ass clowns.
Exactly what I said somewhere. Thank you. I agree.
With the disrespectful Ice Cream pic of IKILLEDIT … is very disrespectful… smh…
I agree. I’m have to wonder if West was a part of this posting. Think about it, the defense is a bunch of media pigs. So it could be possible.
As much as the defense dug into people’s social media pages for this trial, I would think given the publicity of this case that Don West would tell his daughter’s to be careful what they write. After all, up until now, they haven’t written anything like this. So was this the defense’s way of playing a media game to claim that they aren’t stressed about the trial?
I don’t know. I just find something every sinister, strategic, and calculating in this posting.
On the other hand it could just be stupidity, after all this is the same man who started the trial with a “knock, knock” joke.
I think Don West planned it with his girls and then he’d claim willful ignorance and say girls just being silly. West planned this ish!
I wish someone would email it to Judge Nelson. Then again, it probably wouldn’t matter if someone did because she did give a gag order.
If it was left up to me, every single wrong move that the defense made, I’d expose them in the public.
@GrannyStandingforTruth
When did JN issue a gag order because MOM has been yapping from day 1?
Sorry, Woww, I meant to say did not issue a gag order. That was an error on my behalf. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I know I need to take a break and step away from this case for a day now. It has me mentally exhausted.
He is nasty, shudder… The looks on his face, especially once when Rachael said something calling him out on something he said. I can still see it, he thinks he is smarter than he really is.the dumbass, lol
West is the epitome of creepy. Don’t know if he qualifies as a cracker but he is a creepy ass.
@South’nGirl –
What really bothers me about that is that it was PLANNED, with photographer at the ready. They had it all set up, so the shot could be taken as soon as the cones were placed in their hands,
Not one drip of ice cream runneth down …
Maggots, each one.
I wish some would make a huge poster out of it and post it in court.
It was stupidity, and if I were West, he may think of hiring security, for his blonds licking vanilla cones. Some crazy ass clown might not think it is funny. West has only himself to blame, he grew that corn.
It looks like he is the one holding the camera. He is so disgusting. The fact that he thinks he killed it by bullying and talking bad about a 19 year old that witnessed her friend being killed is as evil as he has gotten thus far. I thought that his knock knock joke was evil. What a piece to trash!
just a comment .. though.. people are saying the comment was made about DD, but it was posted before her testimony…. however it was AFTER the knock knock joke… you would think he would know better by now.
@grannStandingforTruth, I think a billboard would be nice, since the jury can see it because they would never show it in the courtroom.
Rene Stuzman article about this disgrace is to be found! When Bernie and Mantei showed O’mara the laptop I just wonder could that have been ‘the celebrate stupid photo?
O’maras’ had a frozen gawk stare at the laptop. West approached took a look and shrunk with a da da duh ah stunned. First time I saw him with that ‘oh shit’ look on his face.
Will someone post just that moment here pretty please. TIA
@ladystclaire hello I remember you for the other site down the web 🙂
give me a minute brb
@ic2fools, thank you very much. I was reading an article at The Daily Beast, about Paula Deen getting tossed by quite a few of those who gave her endorsements. No matter what the situation is, in the murder of an AA kid to Paula Deen’s goings on, some in this country always seem to see fit, to some how involve Obama and Jesse Jackson.
Hoe is it, that mordern science can eradicate some diseases, but they can’t cure IGNORENCE, lol.
Deen and Fogen both have only themselves to blame, for what they themselves caused.
Rachel got it right when she tweeted…”jackass lawyers”
Hi KittySP i missed that. I will be signing off right now and ya’ll have a nice day.
Keep up the good work everyone!
kittysp~ “that’s retarded, sir.”
________________________________
Cielo- that statement she made in court… I’m speaking specifically about a tweet that was on CNN where she tweeted about “jack ass lawyers on her a**”
kittysp~ Oh I know that! It’s just my favorite quote by her! 🙂 “That’s retarded sir” just says it all! LOL!
________________________________
6 hours of disrespect Rachael endured only to be joked about by the same attorney and his ugly ass spawn.
West gave everyone a clue this murder trial is a joke to him with that knock knock joke.
West disrespected Trayvons’ Justice and Judge Nelson..
O’mara told reporters ‘He didn’t ‘run that by him before court’ And we know O’mara will throw anybody in front of the bus to save his own ass.
West needs to be removed all together and definitely those daughters of his.
Can someone explain to me, what this is about? I don’t get it.
Hi LeaNder!
Wow you miss it,
Don West daughter Molly posted a Instagram picture of them with ice cream cones that said “We beat stupidity celebration cones,” followed by three emoticons and the hashtags, “#zimmerman #defense #dadkilledit.”
here is the link you can see it too:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/28/george-zimmerman-s-lawyer-don-west-took-a-truly-shocking-selfie.html
thanks, icfools. I’ll read that. 😉
K!
K! ??????
I’m so sorry. K is short for Okay. I forget you don’t use the same shortcuts. I’ll be more careful when I’m posting.
🙂
No don’t, please. If you do and I do not understand I learn. 😉
Danke! 🙂
I learned Deutsche in high school, it has been a very long time and only remember a bit. 🙂
If you don’t mind and I am well aware that English is much more comfortable than e.g. German or French, but Deutsche is what I am “eine Deutsche” it’s femine. Now, hmm? But I learned German would be Ich habe Deutsch gelernt. It’s das Deutsch, but die deutsche Sprache= the German language. Notice here deutsche is an adjective, only nouns are capitalized.
Oh my, its’ been so long LeaNder. Big smile and thank you for helping me refresh what I did not remember.
yes femine, yes….
I’m sorry I forget. Okay!
We will see if that hashtag #dadkilledit belongs to West or Molly.
That will kill West lie, he doesn’t do social media, now wouldn’t it.
they werent talking about DD..
still bad, but it was posted BEFORE the DD testimony.
didn’t know that. possible they were referring to that knock knock joke. thanks
no one will believe he is serious, that is those who care about Justice.
i still wonder about hashtags #defense and #dadkilledit, did they belong to him and what is his affiliation with those hashtags. we may never know.
patienetly waiting for this ‘statement he is to make
@ic2fools, are his daughters there everyday, because I thought seating for the general public was done by lottery.
I believe so
heres the link you asked for, please note that at about the 41:30 mark, you will see when MOM tries to keep out of evidence Fogen medical records,(where he wrote intense MMA exercise…) failed.
then at the end 1:55 mark, there you will see the MMA bombshell of how much Fogen “excersied MMA’, MOM tried to fix it an twist it but FAILED! after that you will see the laptop and MOM shell shocked (then watch west, i watched the exchange a few times)
Look good at the end, whatever it is MOM is shook and west looks stoopid guilty.
More than likely the State has video of Fogen at the gym getting his butt whopped just before 2/26 (causing dem knotts)
(an ya kno ole girl getta wondering laptop exchange is it that damned west pic? Bernie keeps smilin)
we’ll see, stay tuned same channell same time!!!!
@ic2fools:
Those smiles were nowhere in sight today for Don West as Fogen’s own words were coming back to bite him in the ass! I also know that when Fogen is pronounced, “GUILTY” those smiles will disappear! I abhor what he did to Rachel, but did you notice how she answered him and how she behaved with a smile on her face? She answered very curtly and in a monotone and she used the words, “No SIr” to sound like a expletive! He couldn’t shake her or Ms. Jayne the teacher.either. I pay Don West no mind , because he has proven himself to be an ass!
Did he drop a comment about his daughters? I didn’t notice, or maybe paid no attention? Was it about social media?
@SouthernGirl@: Don West must keep those dog whistles blowing! Is this what he teaches his daughters? To show disrespect for the system, and to be disrespectful to black people?
@Deborah, I completely forgot about ‘dog whistles’, you are on point with that.
For those who do not know what ‘dog whistles’ are here is a link that explains:
Dog-whistle politics is political messaging employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has an additional, different or more specific resonance for a targeted subgroup. The phrase is only ever used as a pejorative, because of the inherently deceptive nature of the practice and because the dog-whistle messages are frequently themselves distasteful, for example by empathising with racist attitudes. It is an analogy to dog whistles, which are built in such a way that their high-frequency whistle is heard by dogs, but is inaudible to humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
To further support ‘dog whistles’ here is a exerpt from Republicn National chairman Lee Atwater:
Conservative race-baiters set their clocks by the dog-whistle. They can’t dismiss Trayvon outright: blaming him explicitly because he is black goes nowhere. That would just shift the conversation onto the accuser. Nobody illustrated this principle better than former Reagan and Bush I strategist and Republican National Committee chairman Lee Atwater, in a kind of “Come to Jesus” moment shortly before his death (emphases mine):
You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”
Atwater addresses national policy, particularly the linguistic erosions that allow us to arrive at “entitlements” as code words for “welfare queens cashing lavish checks while rutting like animals on the whites’ dime.” But this is just the Trayvon treatment writ large, on a national scale: the same linguistic counterrevolution has been imposed on blacks on the personal level as well. Look to the frequent application of “street thug” to Obama, invoking images of saggy-pants gangbangers, chugging 40s. Look to Newt Gingrich calling him “the food stamp president,”
link to Lee Atwater statement and article that further explains how ‘dog whistles’ has been used in this tragedy Trayvons’ murder:
http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin
Great links – well worth spreading far and wide.
AND SO IS HE! I wonder how is this going to affect the trial and, what is the Florida bar saying about it.
Today I was at a friends who is a mid conservative GOP. We disagree on most political things and typically avoid the conversation. Today we were taking about impact of raising our kids in an area with a high percentage of whites. Her children are biracial (Japanese and Caucasian..but look externally Hispanic) and I have four non white children.
I should her the picture of Don West and his daughters as an example of what I never want my kids to believe they are “above” another. The picture and caption epitomizes the opposite of the character I want my children to be. They are void of character and classless.
She did not know much about the Trayvon case, but said “Oh yeah, I remember the Zimmerman guy….he is..ugh..a cop want to be that seemed to want to kill someone. It is awful.I feel horrible for those parents”
She is an upper middle income NRA supportive Caucasian GOPer and it was GREAT to hear that was her opinion knowing very little of the case.
It makes me think, more and more, Zimmerman has very few supporters left and most people think he is an irresponsible fool that committed murder.
CAC will go down. Keep the faith.
GOOD GOW Woow, I hope so because it would be so wrong if he gets away with this.
Correction: GOOD GOD!
Here’s how the scenario would’ve ended, if Trayvon had been wearing a business suit vs. a hoodie.
My point is, sadly I don’t think the ending would’ve been any different. Hoodie or suit Foggen didn’t care, so long as the target was AA or baalack as he says.
Racial stereotypes definitely played a part in his suspicions of Trayvon being a criminal. The color of Trayvon’s skin and the attire he was wearing had to have been the reason. You don’t just call the police on somebody for walking down the street talking on the phone. Perhaps stupid Fogen didn’t realize Trayvon was talking to somebody because he was using a headset of some sort and you might not notice that if the person has a hood covering their ears. But bottom line was Trayvon was not doing anything that warranted a call to the police. Walking down the street is not a crime. I used to live in a nice subdivision that had neighborhood watch and people are so paranoid of anybody walking down the streets at night because that is the time when cars get broken into and stuff like that. People these days just can’t mind their own business.
Stereotyping is probably a better term for what Fogen did than profiling.
Trayvon was wearing khaki’s & white tennis shoes! His pants weren’t hanging off! His hair wasn’t that long or radical. You can’t change your skin color though.
He dressed like a college prep that night, not some media stereotypical gang member…
I believe it was only a race factor.
@BigWillie.
That video hurts.
Ad that’s what we are fighting.
Willie,
Proof is, from GZ and where they two of them ended up, is that GZ had lighting, great lightinng with him all the way to the pathway off TTL and it was the darkest place in the complex along the pathway to the back gate.
He kept Trayvon moving along until he could corner him where NO ONE would see on a dark rainy night and if anyone did appear with a dog out the back, he could slip off the path and into darkness until that was past.
Chasing someone into a dark alley, same thing.
No need, if your intent is to stop the guy to ask if he is lost or lives there, after IDENTIFYING YOURSELF as a concerned neighbo.
He had his car lights, they could stay on with the car running if you wanted to get out and get an address, stay in the illumination of the car lights to see behind all those bushes and John’s ‘big truck’ even.
So rediculous to put yourself in this situation without knowing your plan to confront and if the suspect would not walk with you quietly back to where you parked to wait for police that were called, then you might have to stop him with a bullet.
George Zimmerman may well get away with this, because he had no ground to retreat while carrying a loaded and ready semi-automatic, and all he had ot do was scare a young person enough by a threat, a grab of his shirt, to use it. Abd yse ut ub a wat bi wutbess wiykd be keft ti cibtradict his version.
Easy to set up a kill in Florida it seems. Especially when you target someone unlikely to be a child or a wealthy white person.
Trayvon Martin trial show on MSNBC talk likes even if GZ started it
as long as he fear for his life he can kill you, and it seems the
police dept did every wrong that night to gz A GOOD TO KILL
SOMEONE.
I don’t watch those news shows anymore. Journalism is dead. I find overseas papers more credible when reporting on U.S. news and events than sources state side.
You’ve obviously haven’t been reading the UK Daily Mail. One of today’s headlines was “Zimmerman A L S O an MMA expert”. Also? That publication is ground zero for fogen worshipers. It even said that (as though it were fact) Trayvon rained down blows when he had fogen in a “ground and pound” position. Sigh.
The commentary is disgusting done by bias Americans. I have not tuned in to any of the commentary because I just can not take their lies and bias. I can’t even watch a stream if there are comments scrolling across the bottom. Some people are so ignorant and racists that it makes me sick. The only commentary that I get is from this blog. I like the honesty that everyone here shows which helps me understand what is going on being that I am not a lawyer or a criminal justice degree or anything. In fact, this is the 1st time I have witnessed a trial from the start after following it since it became known to us. I have scoured documents, videos and all sorts of articles, but have long since stopped reading and posting comments on sites where people share their racist views. When you point out a fact, truth or untruth to them they begin name calling and trying to degrade me.
Try Al Sharpton’s Politics Nation. He has 3, sometimes more, people on to discuss the testimony. It’s much more objective.
Daily Mail may be ground zero for Fogen worshippers, but in Britain the paper is about as respected as the National Enquirer is here. Bwa-ha-ha.
As bettykath mentioned, Al Sharpton has been covering the case on his show, and of this week he’s been devoting the first 45 minutes to the trial. Lawrence O’Donnell has also been devoting a segment or two on it every night.
I really like Lawrence O’Donnell. I followed him closely for as long as his show has been on (since September 2010) during my four years of research on the Tea Party and the Obama-era right-wing. His commentary is astute and his critical analysis of politics is very similar to my own. He is also the best political prognosticator of all the MSNBC gang. (I don’t watch anything else; I haven’t chosen Fox “News” on my à-la-carte cable lineup, and when asked why in my “immersion” research I never watched Fox to get the “other side of the story,” I simply say that I base my research in truth and reality, as well as informed, intelligent commentary, none of which is found on Fox.) In any case, I look forward to The Last Word at 10 pm more than any of the other shows of the afternoon/evening lineup (which I watch all of, usually starting with The Cycle), second being Martin Bashir.
I also like LO’D’s political beliefs. He’s said he’s a “European socialist,” which is more or less what I would call myself. (Canada is a very socialist country, and Quebec, the province in which I live, even more so.)
Daily Mail is another inquirer. I never read that junk.
And, to remind you, Lawrence O’Donnell was the one who kicked rent-a-pbalack-friend Joe Oliver off his show, tore Stutzman the hack a new one for presenting Fogen’s statements as fact, and interviewed an empty chair when MOM was a no-show.
Welcome Back professor, do you think that Bernie will call someone from that gym. And have you seen West daughter Instagram where they are having ice cream & calling the prosecution or the witness stupid.
Thank you Professor! I think we must understand that if all evidence is not presented in this case, it gives the murderer grounds for appeal, I would assume, when found guilty. By the prosecution putting these witnesses on the stand proves to me they are attempting to put on a fair trial. The world is watching. The defense is doing an awful job no match for Bernie and his team are doing an excellent job.
What gets me, is that the talking heads act as though this is a sporting event when they ask their guest panel, who had a better day.
Someone lost their life here and, it’s not some kind of score keeping event.
Welcome to The US of A, mam.
no shit huh?……..Any wonder why people have less & less faith in our government?
the major point that passed quickly was the fact that the state entered the clubhouse videos into evidence and authenticated them. On cross, MOM only tried to establish that the timing might be off give or take a minute. The problem with that is, that even if they are the video still shows GZ lied.
I missed that witness today, but was impressed to hear that clubhouse videos were introduced! From what I hear, not much substantive evidence was derived from them today, but I’m going to find a video of that testimony to listen first hand.
It will be cool if the State has witnesses planned who can testify about the videos and what they show that incriminates the killer!
Yes. None of the talking heads seem to realize that video is HUGE. Hopefully BDL will call the resident who told the feds that Zimmerman had a habit of ‘patrolling’ by driving around with his lights out and walking the paths at night with a flashlight, and tie them together neatly for the jury.
wow … where can I read that at… I hope it comes in
They concentrated on the slight chance that the time could have been more off than 18 minutes, or whatever it was. But this means there is still the longer time frame that Tchoubi, Amsterdam, Whonoze studied.This guy should have been prepared for an answer via statistics of checks and deviations from standard time. Which he wasn’t. I consider it highly unlikely that the difference changed so much from one day to the other. He did not do a good job. And it wasn’t a good advertisement for his firm.
If these videos all lead to a central monitor unit there should be a chance to be more precise about deviations from standard time. The problem may be storage. But if they did not store the time frame after what happened that is really even worse.
I wouldn’t make a deal with them after having watched this.
Prosecution could still show that even in a 30 minutes interval no car parked in front of the clubhouse. There were only passing cars.
Sorry, Professor. Yes, there were some good parts of today. There were also some problematic parts. This sounds like a shallow analysis, if it could even be considered an analysis at all. There are many trial tactics going on that many of us have raised questions and concerns about, and I have been so hoping for significant insights from you. But I’m sensing that you have personal matters going on that prevent you from being a professor right now. Of course that’s perfectly understandable, and I wish you the best. But I wish you’d be a bit frank about whatever’s going on with you (if anything), because cheering the cheerleaders isn’t quite what I was expecting here during the trial. I wish you and Crane Station well!
I second that, and I have another reason. I have some kind of memory problem. I can at any time forget what I was going to do or say. I know I have had serious questions I thought you would know the answer to, but now, I can’t remember them. Once I have the information in my brain I can use it in whatever way I need. So, I hope you are well. It makes me feel very good to have a wise & compassionate teacher, one of my favorite feelings.
If you click on my hinkster4ever here you can go see the blood evidence of the stream of blood that collected in the beard. This is where West was sure to get the PA to say there could have been a cut there.
B/S The PA did not document that in her notes. So, by law she did not see it there and BDLR did not redirect her on it.
“By law” she testified to a lot of stuff that is now evidence in a murder case that she had no direct knowledge about and was pure theoretical speculation. “By law” it’s in evidence for the jury to consider, whether she documented it in her notes or not. And that sucks.
the medical records are now entered into evidence. guess what the jury will get to look at when deliberating? they will have medical records and her explanation of them. o’mara went fishing and caught nothing.
Why does the media waste time acknowledging Taffee?
Hes getting paid! Please email or tweet HLN & tell them you don’t want to watch a station that hires known, avowed racists. He is making money off of Trayvon’s murder.
@big Willie, $$$$.
I’m glad they do. He does nothing but harm the defense. He’s such a doof.
Maybe we should request more of him!
I was wondering that too. He is (or has been) on almost every HLN evening show it appears. Today, he seemed to think that if he yelled over everybody loud enough then he would be right in his points. A lot of what he said was wrong, wrong and more wrong, but because he was able to out yell some people, he got the last word in. He talked over every single person on the JVM show. The guests on there were actually following the rules of discussion. Like his buddy, this fool seems to have no regard for rules or respect for others. One lady got hip though and she told him off. The rest need to do the same.
He is probably excited about all the attention.
I think he is the “rub” or comedic relief for every show. They need a match for ratings….he is that stereotypical “stooge” to get the crowds roaring.
I suspect he thinks his input is valued, but really, they just need a sideshow as an icebreaker.
Agree completely. I turn off any show that gives him a platform. The other night I decided to give him another try when he was on JVM….He immediately said Rachel Jeantal was “just Precious”. He’s a thoroughly reprehensible individual.
I figure Precious based on the novel ‘Push’ by Sapphire.
Puck~ In TOTAL agreement! I remember when that film came out. LOT’S of crap about the weight for the main actress.
The trial is big news and Taffee, Junior, and O’Mara are always ready to do interviews and interviewing these guys takes a lot less time and effort than investigative reporting. TV News, particularly crime news, is basically entertainment. I don’t think that it’s much more complicated than that.
Even though I find Taaffe an annoying rude big mouth, I am sure there are a lot of Conservative Squirrel-type people who back Zimmerman and appreciate his point of view so HLN puts him on to get those viewers to watch their shows. .
I am wondering why no one has asked Taafe about his prior theft of property? he opens the door wide for people to ask about his past, his dui arrest, his theft of property arrest, the restraining orders from his wife and daughter. It just really irritates me how they let him slide on this especially seeing how he keeps saying how he hates thieves. I wish I could call in and ask him. I watched him on Valez show last night using big words and acting like he was some kind of law professor or something.
I wouldn’t put it past Taafe and Zimmerman to have been committing the crimes in the neighborhood themselves. How does George afford to live in that community when he could never keep a job and his wife only did hair? He and his wife drive nice cars for their income. A lot of the burglaries were seen by Zimmerman only, and he would call the police but the burglar would be gone. He saved Taafe home from being burglarized but the big part of that is even though there were a lot of break ins Taafe left his window open?? that thief was never caught. This woman said her door was kicked open and she never saw the thief but Shellie did ??? how convenient. No one in the neighborhood ever saw thieves but Zimmerman, Taafe, and Shellie??interesting!! The evidence piece where his trainer kept emailing and asking him who was in the neighborhood watch with him, in the emails he never would name anyone or evidently wanted anyone but himself in the watch program which I found strange because he was only a renter and for a renter to care more about the neighborhood than the people who owned property is crazy!! so you mean to tell me everybody was concerned but yet passed on being a watch person?? Zimmerman would only reply to her to ask if the burgulars were caught? he kept a close watch on things in that neighborhood. Neighbors saying he would shine his flashlight into their homes! why is that? This whole thing is incredible to me. I really don’t get this neighborhood at all!!
They tried neighborhood watch on my road. Many people were kind of interested, there had been a few burglarys, our road is about 2.5 miles long, exits on both ends. The watch went on for a couple of months when all of a sudden some people were telling their neighbors they had to change the paint color on their sheds because the “gaudy” paint lowered the neighbors property value. We had a big meeting at the little church on the road and threw out the neighborhood watch. I was so relieved!
@Riisey007:
I love your post! It raises many questions that I have asked over the past year myself and I believe that you have hit the nail on the head wiith your theory. No one has asked Taafe about anything regarding his past history at all of theft! I always believed that Fogen and Taaffe were the ones behind the burglaries or had others working for them. They just knew a tlittle TOO Much about their neighbors buriness IT is ironic that a lot of the neighbors have moved since Fogen was arrested and the burglaires stopped?.
Daddy Z paid the rent for Fogen and Shellie, and he was still in arrears on the verge of eviction! He couldn’t hold a job and Shellie had all day to attend college and try to better herself but who knows what those two fools were doing? Yes, I always did find it funny that he cared more about the property than the acutal homeowners did! Something about this never smelled right to me either. The people in the neighborhood are also wierd as well, at least some of them. Thanks for the post!
Trayvon Martin trial show on MSNBC right now. 7th!
Hey Prof
hope all is well
we certainly missed you today
Yeah! People started panicking all over the place.
Professor are you ill?
You are having a lot of appointments. Hope all is well.
My observation, too, and concern. Nomb, but hope all is well.
seems I have been worrying about that too, ever since I heard about going to see a doctor.
but hinkster, the lady cannot tell anything about blood flows, and no I didn’t read all responses. That is a task for forensics or anyone with a different scientific expertise.
uno!! Thanks for the new thread
And I’m glad you think it was a good day for the prosecution because I’m feeling a little disturbed by it today . It just didn’t go the way I had planned.
I am trying to look at all sides of today, Rachael, but, I am so afraid the prosecution has missed some major stuff. Especially with the PA today. I remember in opening defense stated they would have an expert (from Texas?) testify about all the bumps on Gz’s head. I am now afraid prosecution is not recognizing the importance of so many things like the blood flow,ect.
I was truly upset that the prosecution didn’t ask the PA if the direction of the blood flow was consistent with being on your back. It was so effed up that no one did.
I was just listening again because I missed a lot of it today but John said he did not hear a muffled help so that’s good
Ms.X, I am totally upset that West got the PA to say in Gz’s beard (right side) the collection of clotted blood could have come from a cut there! A side photo clearly shows a trail of blood behind Gz’s right ear to that clotted are in the corner of his beard! I will try to find the photo that I am talking about. It clearly shows the stream of blood from the back of his head around the back of the head…….getting caught and clotting in that area of his beard.
That’s where I feel BDLR could have countered that isn’t that blood pooling in his beard from the back of his head?
Hinkster, me too. The 3rd thing is that omara got the PA to state that all the “injuries” that were recorded were legit, even though he told her that theh EMT said he had a broken nose, which was another of his lies. The EMT told him to get checked for a broken nose. The PA said he “could have” had a broken nose. Now legally, he had a broken nose because she answered yes to a trick question from omara. Omara spinned swelling for gosh sakes!
I am not happy that Bernie is not more attentive to these most important details. He doesn’t see it as life or death because he doesn’t know what consequences it is going to have for the Black community. It will have grave, deadly consequences & make a bad situation much worse. I feel like Bernie is killing time until he can retire, probably within 5 years. The other 2 may be using the job as a stepping stone to something else. I don’t see much fire in them. I guess, just like others in society, they can only care so much about the life of a black person. Fucking sad. Traumatic.
I don’t understand, maybe I was watching a different version of today then some but that is not what I heard. O’Mara didn’t get the PA to say Fogen had a broken nose. She said it is possbile that his nose was fractured but had no way of telling because he didn’t have a xray or mri so therefore could not give a difinitive answer to say he had a broken nose. That his nose was straight and where it looked crooked could’ve been a hemotoma or swelling. When OM pointed to the pointed the pictures asking could those injuries could possibly be caused by someone being slammed into the concrete… she said possbly but said it all depends on how hard. She never said that is what caused Fogens injuries. Then when it was BDLR time to redirect… he got that cleared up… and the PA made sure the jury knew she did not say he had a broken nose. Then she said the only thing she noticed on Fogen was only the two lacerations… and not what was on the pictures. IMO: It was Fogen’s fault for refusing to go to the Hospital the night in question.
If the back of your head is getting banged, then how do the sides swell and you get cuts on the side? Actually, the State set O’Mara up very good because abrasions and swelling on the side of the head does not support GZ’s story of being on his back getting it banged.
The defense is barking up the wrong tree as well. Have we forgotten that GZ said he had removed his head off the sidewalk, and had Trayvon’s arm pinned when killing him?
I suspect before it’s over, the witness from the gym will testify that GZ got his azz whipped that Friday night.
My thought too.
I don’t understand why all the questions to the PA weren’t speculation. I didn’t know PAs did diagnose of photos.
I agree. I could not believe there were no objections to this PA diagnosing a photo or that she would attempt to do so even though she was somewhat evasive. She was a bad witness and the only thing good that came from her was the MMA in the medical record.
@Xena, I’m inclined to believe your theory as well, because looking @ his face especially, he has some places that look like they had scabs on them. Those were definitely not fresh injuries and there is no way that swelling from a brutal attack is going to reced over night.
As foe his back pain around his SI joint, I read some where in the beginning, that he had back problems dealing with his SI joint. I’m hoping someone from that gym will confirm that he got his ass beat because, Trayvon did NOT cause those injuries and, that would include his nose.
The jury needs to compare the on scene photo, with the one take at the SPD on the night in question. I repeat, swelling does not receed in a matter of minutes. I’m hoping the state will have someone who will testify that both of those photographs, HAVE BEEN TAMPERED WITH. The defense should be called out on this.
@hinkster4ever @Ms.X
I don’t think blood flow is within the scope of matters on which the PA could testify. That’s more for forensics experts, who know about blood evidence including how it flows.
@ladystclaire
There were quite a few mostly-healed scabs on Fogen’s face, weren’t there? Perhaps he always had a “fresh set” of them ready for whenever he got the chance to do his hunting expedition.
@Nellie Nell: BINGO! There is more to come and I for one, am wating for the other witnesses because so far, the neighbors are lying IMO and I cannot wait to see the cell phone records, text messages and e-mails of Fogen! I am sure they are full of so much information and that is why O’Moron, has held them back!
ALAS! I didn’t know and I was all alone on the LAST thread! LOL!
x2