Zimmerman liveblog: Frye Hearing

Friday, June 7, 2013

Good morning.

The case resumes this morning at 9 am EDT with the Frye Hearing.

Link to Livestream:


1,166 Responses to Zimmerman liveblog: Frye Hearing

  1. dianetrotter says:

    Is it my imagination or does Doddington seem lost as an Easter egg??? Did they vet this guy? Maybe all his info is highly classified.

  2. Shari says:

    follow. where’s prof?

    • tharealkeisha says:


    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. Excellent questions!!

    • Rachael says:

      Yes, YES!!!! I was afraid you were gonna leave out the last one. I was sitting here saying it out loud. LOL –

      I should NEVER doubt you LLMPapa ❤

    • Jun says:

      Nakasone fucking sucks as an audiologist

      I studied audio and music in music school and I could clearly identify things and he says he cant do anything with 3 seconds

      He fucking sucks

      The FBI should fire him if he cant work with tough samples

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Gee, none of that happened in the 1minute 10 second gap from when DD’s call disconnected and the 911call picked up. So it had to have begun sometime after gz says “These shall be…” I sincerely doubt Trayvon could manage to knock gz to the ground, less mount him and hold him there while speaking in fear and howling in pain while gz asked him questions he didn’t know the answer to.

      I sincerely doubt the superior opponent is going to scream “I begging you!” All while bashing a head on the pavement, striking the face with 25 to 30 blows and smothering him with hands that can’t make an air tight seal over either the mouth or the nose. And still accomplish all of that in 45 seconds till gunshot time? gz has got to be out of his freakin ever loving mind.

      We’re supposed to think that if Pee Wee Herman went up against Mike Tyson, we’d hear Iron Mike issuing blood curdling screams! Yeah! Right!

      Wait until the jurors learn how you’ve been trying to alter your appearance away from the muscular figure you cut that night!
      Toast I tell you, you’re toast! Your goose is cooked and times run out! Tick Tock

  3. bettykath says:

    The defense has been spouting all kinds of inadmissible stuff to the media. Now we have the Frye hearing that the defense wanted where their expert is too conservative to make a determination of anything, and two prosecution witnesses state, under oath, that it wasn’t fogen doing the screaming, and one witness who adds to “these f…ah always get away” a whispered “but not on me”. None of the experts said it was fogen screaming.

  4. ay2z says:

    If GZ said he didn’t think he hit ‘the guy’ and that he did a wrist control on him and got on his back until he stopped moving, whil telling him to ‘stop, just stop’ (as in stop moving), then why would he not continue to cry out for help in the same way, after he pulled the trigger, with ‘the guy’ (according to GZ) was still alive and moving and needed controlling (with bullet through his heart)?

    • PYorck says:

      Of course I can’t prove it (yet), but I think there is one thing that makes him a bad liar and would also make him a bad writer.

      He does not keep track of what he knew and what would have made sense at the time.

      That’s why he says he got out of the car to get an address although when he did that the address had no special significance and he had not yet been asked. (It’s been a while since we last heard that one.)

      That’s also why he claims not to have known if he hit Trayvon but tells the story using his knowledge that he did.

  5. ay2z says:

    Darn, put myself in moderation again by a misstep.

    Here’s the link again, Bill Schaeffer, the Mr. Schaeffer that MOM pointed to, to discredit Bernie DLR on video. Maybe you shouldn’ta done that, Mr. M’OM, he says you are not winning the expert wars as of this morning.


  6. ay2z says:

    Remember O’Mara’s use of the name Mr. Schaeffer? He may be sorry he used that name recently on camera in an attempt to credit himself and at the same time, discredit Bernie DLR.

    WEll, here you have it Mr. MOM, Schaeffer thinks the state is winning the war of the experts, as of this morning and thanks to you, viewers are now keyed on his name as familiar.

    And now I am going to sit back and watch LLMPapa’s latest.


    • racerrodig says:

      Lets just say this guy’s initials being B. S. is dead on. I saw some of his BS yesterday and is this guy off base. When O’ Mara gets slapped with his legal issues, B. S. will be in over his head as bad as O’ Mara is now …….and that’s no BS.

  7. tharealkeisha says:

    When I heard the tape in court I could hear the high pitch help and secs later more faint I can hear a regular scream for help

    • tharealkeisha says:

      GZ was mocking Trayvon

      • ay2z says:

        I don’t know about mocking, could well be, but parallelling his actions, and wanting help for himself for his own motives. He won’t get away, they always get away, not on me.

        But what I don’t hear, is Trayvon nor anyone calling GZ, an f’n homie.

      • PYorck says:

        Or he realized that it doesn’t look good if your opponent is crying for help and you seem to do just fine.

      • tharealkeisha says:

        Well we know it wasn’t because he feared for his life

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Zimmerman had to be acutely aware he was near homes in the early evening. homes that had windows and doors open – with residents who could hear all that screaming.

        He was busy formulating his “I killed in self-defense alibi” even before he finished Trayvon off with that single shot so Trayvon could not testify against him.

        He yelled “help!” so he could claim it was he, himself, screaming in fear of his (dead) “attacker.”

        In a million years he did not count on this being recorded on an official police 911 recording.

        He’s dog meat now.

        If your dog’s not picky.

        • racerrodig says:

          “He’s dog meat now.

          If your dog’s not picky.”

          How about Buzzard Bait, nobody likes Buzzards anyway.

      • tharealkeisha says:

        Sounds like Murder I. 

      • Jun says:

        I dont hear any yells for help that are Fogen

        I however do hear what sounds like Fogen “howl” and “hoot” as if in pleasure at what’s happening

    • Rachael says:


    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. You hit the proverbial nail on the head. Yes! We have heard Trayvon before the so called ABC exclusive.

      • ay2z says:

        ThasssRight, Xena. No way no how that grown man GZ has that high pitch characteristic in his voice, nor the plain old expressive youthful, immature voice nature either.

        Thanks LLMPapa, you never quit for Trayvon, Sybrina, Tracy and Jahvaris, and all of their extended family, Brandi who is there for Trayvon and loved him like a son, too.

        I think of Serino’s words … “he had parents who care….”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        And a big worldwide family who cares . . .

    • kllypyn says:

      Reports are stupid they can’t possibly believe zimmerpunk was sceaming

    • LeaNder says:

      What is the music, LLMPapa? It feels I know, but I am not sure.

      He had a beautiful voice. And he definitively sounds young. That’s not a fully developed voice yet.

      Concerning Fogen’s voice. It changes a lot, sometimes to an childlike act. But I am sure he would sound completely different in the setting DeeDee describes.

  8. KA says:

    Hey I missed the whole day. I have about 5 min to catch up….is the expert testimony allowed?

    • ay2z says:

      No ruling yet, Frye hearing continues tomorrow morning.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      ka asks

      Hey I missed the whole day. I have about 5 min to catch up….is the expert testimony allowed?

      no ruling yet, progress was slow today (thanks mr west!). frye hearing will resume tomorrow morning 9:30 EST.

  9. diary73 says:

    You can find most if not all files here, Woow. Scroll to the bottom right.


  10. Woow! says:

    Did the defense file a witness list or are they going to call of the prosecution witnesses? Can someone give me a link to all of the documents filed in this case?

  11. Rachael says:

    I missed most all of today – is there somewhere that there is like a summary somewhere?

  12. KittySP says:

    Brett Seacat is doing poorly on cross examination

  13. boyd says:

    Next up.

    Mary Cutcher is mistaken about the young voice, it’s Fogen who sounds like a child.

    DeeDee hearing a deeper voice is mistaken

    The victim would never scream out when about to be shot.

    The Trayvon was the attacker even though he was minding his OWN BUSINESS.

    If Fogen survives all that are we back to 1936 Germany?

  14. vickie s. votaw says:

    Did anyone else see the faint & fleeting smile on fogen during the last sidebar, wonder who he’s texting?

  15. diary73 says:

    West also stated as fact that a witness saw Trayvon beating GZ and that Trayvon punched GZ in the nose, both of which statements are not based on fact. Why was there not an objection???

    An aside: I am kind of glad tat the statement about the punch in the nose was not objected to… Hehehe. West really stepped into that one. He will need a bushel of lemons to cleanse himself of the smell of that poop he slid around in.

    • Jun says:

      It’s not trial and anything West says is not evidence or could be truthful anyways, and even the expert stated he heard nothing to could be consistent with a nasal injury voice speaking sound

      The witness who claimed that changed his statement a few times already and there is also forensic evidence to dispute the allegations and accusations so if he is a smart person he should just be honest instead of getting a perjury charge

    • ic2fools says:

      reserving their energy for the trial.

      State knows they’ll be poppin out theirs seats like popcorn objecting Wests’ slow azz redundant cross.

  16. fauxmccoy says:

    question for professor

    should we expect judge nelson to enter a ruling at the conclusion of the frye hearing regarding which witnesses are hereby certified as ‘expert witnesses’ for the purpose of this trial?

    to my untrained mind, it would appear that all so far meet the frye test, but i would expect nelson to rule as such.

  17. Woow! says:

    Something is not right in the pudding. I would not let George travel outside the county. I hope he does not try to run.

    • SoulSistaWoo says:

      I could not believe she extended his curfew this close to a trial that looks very bad for the defendent.

      If the defense had to meet from 5am – 5pm each day until trial or meet at Fogen hideout 24 hrs. a day… anything is better than an extension at this late date.

    • ay2z says:

      Run? He can only sway and skip, sort of. And he would have to buy two bus seats, no dividers.

      • LMAO

        The image of a 300lb + man “skipping”…

        He will be caught escaping while stuck in an airport metal detector………

        • fauxmccoy says:

          mmpat says

          He will be caught escaping while stuck in an airport metal detector………

          for once, i find myself pitying the poor TSA agent conducting that pat down :/

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          LEO’s have been known to play such tricks. They might just purposely leave him an unguarded moment to see what he does. If he runs, it would make great news to have the Coast Guard picking him up off a speeding boat, headed for parts unknown. Can you say “film at 11”? I knew you could. 😆 The foggen would be devastated, forced to avoid the camera and the limelight.

    • kllypyn says:

      Let his lawyers come to him. He ought to be glad he was given bail at all.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m guessing Judge Nelson thinks the more little things she gives, the less trouble overall she’ll have down the road with appeals, etc.

    • LeaNder says:

      What I do not understand, maybe someone can explain it to me, why does the defendant need to meet witnesses?

      Who are the mystery witnesses.

      • ic2fools says:

        After pondering a couple possibilities, I strongly believe now that is visitors a resident in close proximity of murder. That were uncomfortable to speak on the events, due to enormous exposure. After seeing media hound the witnesses that had came forth.

        Now they decide to speak? I question validity of their testimonies at this point unless they have video/audio of the murder proving what they say is true.

        I don’t trust these confidential people Omar dug up because of his dirty smear campaign of Trayvon and his family. Then wanting court to hide them behind a screen, all witnesses should be treated in same fashion. Legal exceptions were .discussed in court, Judge Deborah ruled does not apply to Omars’ witnesses.

        I also believe its’ CTH idea and they will be Fogen supporters, btw BDLR and CTH has proved Omar is using they’re ideas. Which are highly visible word for word in his Motions and media interviews.

        • LeaNder says:

          Concerning their larger obsessions and strategy I wouldn’t be surprised if they had found the snitch, in Miami, who I understand was on the same school as Trayvon. Who I also understand Trayvon had a fight with.

          Maybe they found the kids he “coached”. I noticed lately they supplanted the colleague or partner of O’Mara with a black beauty. Law student?

          His lawyer colleague was once caught in an image I just saw somewhere. Here it is, item 36. That’s not really a friendly look in GZ’s direction.

          Is that why she is out of scene now, or has she other things to do. Strictly I would have always felt slightly superficial, had I been her in Court. Nothing to do really, just sit there like a stage prop and occasionally chat with Fogen. The intern has to at least pick up the papers, did she do the research for the last show trial?

          • ic2fools says:

            Good morning LeaNder,

            Concerning their larger obsessions and strategy I wouldn’t be surprised if they had found the snitch, in Miami, who I understand was on the same school as Trayvon. Who I also understand Trayvon had a fight with.

            Maybe they found the kids he “coached”. I noticed lately they supplanted the colleague or partner of O’Mara with a black beauty. Law student?

            Your observation is spot on, most likely the answer. IC and understand what you mean about having the black intern. Defense thinking black kids or black witnesses can relate to her because she of the same ethnicity. WRONG!!!!! Completely fabricated, a myth with proven failed attempts when used, much like what defense is trying to do here.

            Black beauty will be tolorated, paying them money will yield better results.

            The only possible flaw with this spot on observation is what was said yesterday about defense confidential witnesses do not fall under the laws governing anonymity. Especially laws that protect the identity of minors (under 18). It is however, very possible defense confidential witness are now over 18. Trayvon would have been 18 years old this February.

            If this is the case and these witnesses were Trayvon peers they first have to pass States’ smell test, then BDLR cross including any and all investigations on those witnesses. Also making sure they are not testifying just because they didn’t like, hated or vengeful of Trayvon. Like the one he fought with, would be spiteful

            In closing, I truly can see that if these witnesses are from Miami and were Trayvons’ school mates snitching, why they want theirs names sealed and want to stay behind a screen testifying, fearing potential harm. Ahhh yeah! They need to be scared shitless (exuse me).

            They know it and may ask for witness protection from who I don’t know. They easily could be used by supremacist as pawns to start a war whether race or inner race war. Which is what most supremacist want to happen. As you see they are always posting about ‘if George is acquitted blacks will riot’ ‘black will have an uprising’ an such. That is the worst example of dated hate thinking and race baiting. Dirty as the tactics being use to smear Trayvon can also be twisted and used to start other troubling horrific issues.

            Yet from a cultural perspective, for one they would be shunned in their neighborhood, peers, loved ones loose friends, their jobs any and all respect from others of their ethnicity. No Black American would do any harm to them, because they would be considered and labeled as worthless, useless snitches who would send others to jail including whom hurt them. They would not be worth giving up our diginity and life for. Their fate will be GODs’ plan and not the by the hands of Black Americans.

        • LeaNder says:

          Concerning their larger obsessions and strategy I wouldn’t be surprised if they had found the snitch, in Miami, who I understand was on the same school as Trayvon. Who I also understand Trayvon had a fight with.

          Maybe they found the kids he “coached”. I noticed lately they supplanted the colleague or partner of O’Mara with a black beauty. Law student?

          His lawyer colleague was once caught in an image I just saw somewhere. Here it is, item 36. That’s not really a friendly look in GZ’s direction.

          Is that why she is out of scene now, or has she other things to do. Strictly I would have always felt slightly superficial, had I been her in Court. Nothing to do really, just sit there like a stage prop and occasionally chat with Fogen. The intern has to at least pick up the papers, did she do the research for the last show trial?

      • Malisha says:

        The fifth amendment to the US Constitution says that a defendant in a criminal trial must be allowed to bring in witnesses FOR him and to confront all witnesses. When there were trials involving the testimony of small children, a great debate started about how a defendant can “confront” witnesses who are not physically in the court room. There’s so much case law on this point that I have not read it and I admit it comes down differently in different states in different circumstances. But generally, the witness has to BE THERE where the defendant IS in order to be Constitutional and make a fair trial.

        • LeaNder says:

          thanks Malisha, and in Florida due to depositions and slightly different rules, this may have the twist too that he can meet them or usually meets his most important witnesses before trial.

      • ic2fools says:

        The pic I saw it number 36, yes she looked angry, O’mars’ colleague.

        I would like to add its’ hard for me not to believe Black Beauty has a clear conscience. Knowning she is the token for a defense that before her for years did not have any minorities in their firm.

        Correction/addition: Money would yeild better results . That is correct statement pertaining to snitches no matter what the race, its’ their morals. Morals are not judged by color, race or gender.

      • LeaNder says:

        icfools, I have no idea if O’Mara never had any black interns before. How would I know? Since I haven’t studied or practised law it’s hard for me to tell what her interests may be. As a lawyer, I guess to a certain extend you have to be prepared to not select future clients based on if they are likeable or not. Fact is in a case like that you may well be able to learn a lot more than in others. I would also assume that the legal “guild” would not criticise you, but may in fact respond with curiosity if it popped up on your resume.

        Bottom line, I would need to know more about her, she is beautiful anyway. For all I can tell she may have been there before O’Mara got the case and decided to stay. Although, yes that seems unlikely for interns, but see above.

        No doubt, O’Mara may use her for his own interests. But that would need further observation.

        Did you notice the legal partner or employee of O’Mara was there again only moved to one of the back seats?

        Also stern looking father, with his odd habit to keep his head raised in pretty much the same position all the time came to O’Mara’s desk in the end chatting with Fogen and trying to chat with O’Mara who, seemed to not have much patience for him. Other things to do. And in the end dad walked out with Fogen. Junior is kept of the scene but daddy seems to be allowed to join the meetings with witnesses, which I assume were happening after the hearing.

        I will stop responding via the notifications interface above, seems to double responses lately.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Leander –

          Well, is “Mr. Head Up,” paying rapt attention to the proceedings and with a badge clipped to his tie Papa Zim or a bailiff of some sorts?

          • LeaNder says:

            Hello Piranha, I am in the process of looking for a different video. I like Trent, but I wish he would shut up when he saves the hearings.

            When that guy drew my attention the first time, I wondered if he was some type of bailiff too, although I wondered if it could be dad. Don’t remember who responded, but I actually think that some confirmed it is dad.

            I didn’t notice the badge clipped to the tie. Any idea what it is. I have to watch that next time. Any idea what it could be?

          • PiranhaMom says:


            I always thought it was Da, but other students here referred to him in the last day or two as GZ’s bodyguard (which I found startling, but hey, he could be Fast Draw McGraw).

            I think the badge is likely one of those plastic security ID cards on a lanyard, issued by Court House security – he may have been able to invoke his past post as magistrate to qualify for it. I don’t recall seeing it on other attendees, but frankly was not examining their attire. Maybe everybody attending has to get one to get into the courtroom. He attends faithfully, always sitting in the same location.

            I don’t know where I saw a photo of he father – months and months ago, but this attendee looked like the man I recall.

          • racerrodig says:

            Papa Z took the stand an the 1st bail hearing. The white haired guy siting behind FogenPhoole is Papa. I’m shocked he hasn’t played the Robbie the Racist game and started with “..this case should be dropped…if I was the judge…..well lets say all Afro – Peruvian’s would be issued a license to kill”

          • LeaNder says:

            this man caught my attention the first time when they had the confidential , exchanges with Nelson outside the court room, concerning the Stand Your Ground hearing, or more precisely GZ waiving his rights. That’s why my first take was he must be some kind of court employee. May be the camera shifted at one point but he seemed to be able and in the process to show them the way out via a door on the left. Or maybe simply wanted to be around to not miss anything.

            Yes could be a security guard too, strictly.But: Would a security guard following proceedings as closely? Would he be that age? I somehow doubt.

          • LeaNder says:

            Security guard: hmm, maybe they decided to keep the money for security partly in the family and dad he former soldier thinks he is quite able to do that himself at least partly? After all he has a gun? 😉 So age does not matter that much.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Nobody gets a gun into the courtroom unless they are assigned there as armed courtroom personnel.

            It’d Dad alright. Glad that’s cleared up.

          • LeaNder says:

            Well, he may able to leave it somewhere. But I was slightly kidding anyway, or ironical.

          • Well we have plastic guns…

            And also “executive letter openers” with the prior quote embossed in the handle…..available at gunshows across the country……They’ll pass thru any metal detector in the country…


          • LeaNder says:

            It says

          • I said….wrong link….just do a search for executive letter opener

          • LeaNder says:

            Just notice, no idea how it happened. I guess I wanted to look up your initial comment first. Still struggling to figure out how this works.

            In any case, MP, your irony seems to demand a little insider knowledge. Are executive letter opener’s lately collected as potential weapons on planes?

            Take care all, supper time. 😉

          • On planes…or any other place one would want to carry a blade thru a metal detector…..such as a courtroom also…..

            Me?……….I make knife blades from bone…..with bone or antler handles 🙂

          • LeaNder says:

            Do they work, or are you kidding me? In any case I am not aware something like that exists.

            Now I guess this comment doubles again, I should really stop to use this interface. No matter how comfortable it actually is. Or maybe alert WordPress to the bug.

            Take care up in your mountains Pat.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            we now have 3D printers capable of printing a useable firearm right in the comfort of your own home. the plastic does not hold up to long term use, but it works. wonder how that shows up under scans at airports if disassembled.

            meanwhile, fellow makeup artists i know are having enormous difficulty traveling to locations when their tools consist of makeup applied with air compressor units.

          • LeaNder says:

            Security guard: hmm, maybe they decided to keep the money for security partly in the family and dad he former soldier thinks he is quite able to do that himself at least partly? After all he has a gun? 😉 So age does not matter that much.

          • racerrodig says:

            What do they need security from anyway…..?? All those imaginary threats. You can bet your last dollar if there was one actual threat, it would have been leaked to the Outhouse and everyone would know.

          • LeaNder says:

            morning, racer, I could understand if he was paranoid, that does not tell us about real threats either. Remember he felt Trayvon was a threat too.

            I need some more native speaker helping me to understand what I understand at one specific point, and why that may the case in Doddington’s CV at the start of his statements following after Texas Instruments. I would be pleased if you could tell me about the correct abbreviation he uses for the intergovernmental transfer. I hear IPA, that would stand for Intergovernmental Personal Act. But it seems usually to be referred to as ITP. I would like you tell me exactly what you hear after Defense, it’s about 1:00 on Trent’s recording.

          • parrot says:

            LeaNder, I also hear IPA, (Intergovernmental Personnel Act) but I thought he meant ITA given that he follows up saying international transfer.
            It appears he does means IPA and that this Act provides for people to work for the SRA in a temporary capacity in research while being paid by their home office which gets reimbursed for the salary of the employee on this special assignment.
            Perhaps you’ve seen this link:

            He mispronounces several words, so it’s difficult even for native speakers.

          • LeaNder says:

            thanks, parrot, ironical use of the term as aka, if you ask me. Thanks a lot for the link, interesting, but I guess I have to “digest” that first. That’s a German colloquialism.

            SRA seems to be a giant with multiple acquisitions and a bit of equity capital inflow on first sight, mainly active in the national security (and civil government and health). There are two core domains that seem to be related to it. SRA.com and SRAinternational.org. I wasn’t aware of the second, that’s related to your link.

            The only thing I understood completely different while listening than you do, is that he worked for SRA but was loaned to a government agency in the defense sectors. That’s why I would love to understand him precisely or where his speech mannerism become important. Loaning him to an agency wouldn’t be a bad thing to do if you mediate for while on these type of documents, alluding to possible licenses. That’s NSA, and that is by the way why I would love to understand exactly what the first agency he mentions was. He definitively mentioned NSA later.

            I am answering via gmail, and I hope that I can use html tags the way I can when making the comment directly

          • LeaNder says:

            morning, racer, I could understand if he was paranoid, that does not tell us about real threats either. Remember he felt Trayvon was a threat too.

            I need some more native speaker helping me to understand what I understand at one specific point, and why that may the case in Doddington’s CV at the start of his statements following after Texas Instruments. I would be pleased if you could tell me about the correct abbreviation he uses for the intergovernmental transfer. I hear IPA, that would stand for Intergovernmental Personal Act. But it seems usually to be referred to as ITP. I would like you tell me exactly what you hear after Defense, it’s about 1:00 on Trent’s recording.

          • racerrodig says:

            Here’s the 1st threat made to Fogen ….from me….come on my property and touch my son and you won’t be dead enough when I’m done. Now his security is justified !!!

            Doddington says “SAR International” and maybe he worked there, maybe not. Here is the link.


          • LeaNder says:

            Ok, test via email:

            Yes, that’s what icfools told. Can you all clearly understand that in spite of the fact Trent is babbling?

            Now I get what the next could be it’s really simply NSA, no DARPA. When I listened to it, I thought he mentioned DARPA too.

            Anyway some of the NSA documents in this context makes sense. They even try to look at voice enhancement technologies.

            Now I have to shut up and leave.

      • LeaNder says:

        OK, I have to stop using the notification interface and shift to, notify me. I now doubles comments regularly.

      • Please ignore the link I posted below as it is wrong…..Just do a search for “Executive letter opener”

  18. ay2z says:

    As true as it gets.
    Trayvon’s parents.

    “Every mother knows…”

    “He saw his death coming”

  19. Woow! says:

    I really hope that either the judge, someone on the prosecution team/office, or lawyers write to the bar against MOM and West. Deliberately lying to the court, arguing with a judge, in your face attempts to taint the jury pool.

    They should be publicly reprimanded, sanction, or disbar both. This is egregious lawyering in its finest form.

  20. ZCBest says:

    4:47 p.m. ET: Judge Nelson said the defense has three more witnesses so the hearing will resume tomorrow morning at 9:30 a.m. ET. She is now listening to the defense’s request to extend curfew for Zimmerman. Prosecutors are objected to the motion. Nelson said she would extend curfew to 10 p.m. ET, but said Zimerman can only leave Seminole County, Florida to only visit O’Mara’s firm.

  21. lurker says:

    Okey-dokey–see you all in the morning!

  22. Nef05 says:

    Ok, did they recess until the morning? Last thing I saw was a side bar, then the A/V guys started making montages and now it’s just traffic? Did I miss something?

  23. groans says:

    See y’all back tomorrow at 9:30!

    Can they do three witnesses in one day? Doesn’t look like it. It truly does look like a LOOOOOONG hot summer, ahead!

    • Ben Crump called it!

      too bad tho cas this should be short and sweet. it’s just so simple It’s astounding
      how the defense has twisted everything into a huge filibuster!

  24. Jun says:

    Okay so my guess is both experts are allowed in?

    The whole court and the judge heard the tape themselves and their findings sound pretty accurate

  25. groans says:

    Wouldn’t it be interesting to see the GPS data about where the killer has been roaming while out on bail?

  26. The heck is going on with the video?

  27. whonoze says:

    WTF is this bizarre montage?

  28. lurker says:

    Would love to know what they are all saying up there at the bench. Judge Nelson is smiling.

  29. whonoze says:

    I think Manthai should have used his opportunity to redirect to get a summary statement from Reich about the fact that his methods are anything but new and novel.

  30. ay2z says:

    How could a good scientist take a punch in the nose and other things he heard GZ only, say, into consideration because that’s not scientific evidence, it’s self-serving. The defense might come up with nasal audio evidence from some yet unreported unopined expert, bet he does.

  31. Nef05 says:

    So the state will not be calling H&H?

  32. KittySP says:

    If I may say so…GZ looked fine to me hours later for someone to have suffered the beat down to within an inch of his life. with all the head pounding, fist pummeling, face smothering he should’ve looked like Will Smith’s character in the movie Hitch after having an allergic reaction to food.

    • Girlp says:

      No swelling of the head, face (I believe that pic of him with the blood on the tip of the nose is photoshopped) only scratches and some red areas (that could be from wiping blood away) EMT and the document from his visit to the clinc show nothing wrong with him at all no signs of concussion no lumps dizziness etc….Nothing because his head was never banged period.

      • racerrodig says:

        Remember falling off a bike…all the scrapes and abrasions ? I do, yet Fogen has none ??? Magic Concrete ??

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I fell of my bike. I felt fine, just embarrased. I had to bike another 20 minutes to get home. I stopped at a delli to get some food. The reaction of the people in the delli was my first indication I didn’t look so good.
        My upper lip was about double its normal size. The worst part was the road rash above my upper lip. I showed up at a social event 2 weeks later, and people were still asking me what had happened to me.

        My mom had fallen of her bike just a couple of months earlier, she broke her nose. She really did look like a price fighter.

        That is what pisses me of most, when I hear GZ supporters talk about GZ’s ” injuries”. I think everybody over 20 has had or knows someone who has had, some kind of injury to their face. And everybody who has bumped into something with his face, must’ve thought the same thing I did when I saw the photos of GZ, later that night or the following day, during the video reenactment;” I wished I looked like that the following day”.

      • Girlp says:

        @racer I fell and hit my forehead when I was 2 on our painted concrete front porch my dad took my picture (of me and my cocker spainel pup) I had this huge red bump in the middle of my forehead clearly in the picture and I hit the concrete once, all the bruises and scars on my legs from falling on a brick or concrete sidewalk looked nothing like the little scratches GZ had.

        • racerrodig says:

          I’ve scrapped my arms badly just lying under a car working on it….like I am now. I’ve fallen off my bike when I was a kid and I wish I had pictures of that……..Fogen has no abrasions, just 2 very small scratches…..pretty soon he’s gonna wish he had died that night….
          …that mo’ fucker.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          MOM’s trying to appear knowledgeable by chasing metaphors, it’s making him sound like an idiot, hahaha. He understands the metaphors, he doesn’t understand how Reich is applying them, so he’s chasing the meaning within the metaphor but, if you grasp what Reich is trying to convey MOM’s “cheap trick” is revealed because he should have been onto the issue not the symbolism. He keeps doing it and it’s frustrating to see him waste time, because he clearly doesn’t understand any of it.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      because it never happened. I’ve personally seen two people beaten to the level and beyond of what he described. The second I saw what he looked like the next day I knew he was full of it. On HP and other sites I used to post pics of people who actually had suffered what he claims.

      And just thought of something as well. couples years back I made the mistake of tickling my then BF with my face just inches from his elbow. The end result other than a minor black eye was a cut on the nose(had glasses at the time) very similar to what GZ had.

      • yeah, I was drunk scooting in my parking lot a couple of years ago. I forgot to lock the handle bars up ( the stand up kind. like an electric skateboard with handles ) I was going about ~15 mph, doing wheelies over the speed bumps, and bam, I went straight down with the handle bar! that shit hurt like the dickens!!! I swear it knocked me senseless for a few minutes and believe me I was NOT normal in 45 mins! I thought I broke my boob!!LOLLOLOL sorry TMI LOL
        and the next day my body was so sore when I stepped outa bed my legs gave out and I could barely walk. but zippy skipped up the stairs no prob!

        lesson. never catch a buzz and try to show off in front of dudes on a scooter!

  33. Nellie Nell says:

    Did he just tell the witness not to speak Jeremy’s name and then mention that same persons name??? WTH

  34. SoulSistaWoo says:

    West ask Dr. Reich did he identify the other person in the house with the female caller… Dr. Reich said yeah, JeremY!!

    • ay2z says:

      West did not do what he should have, that was to ask that he not name anyone by name, before completing his question.

      Didn’t work in W’s favor this time though.

  35. ay2z says:

    On the Jeremy call. W doens’t want R to ID Jeremy by name, but R tells him it says ‘Jeremy’ on the tape.

    Duh!! (and glass houses, Mr. West… glass houses)

  36. i’m gonna need transcripts for this hearing for real.. sorry but as much as I like this guy I can’t understand him. i’m sure some of it is because of the speaker phone and my own shitty speakers, but it’s also his speech.

    • whonoze says:

      It’s mainly the speakerphones (plural). Reich is speaking into a speakerphone, and we are listening to it played over another speakerphone picked up by a mic in the courtroom. This is exacty how Ben Crump recorded DeeDee, and why she sounds so inaudible in that recording. If Reich was in the courtroom, properly mic’ed (as I think witnesses usually are) I think he’d be much easier to understand.

      • true that.
        But I have a lisp myself. went thru 6 years of speech therapy cas I couldn’t say my own name! Sssaaannon! LOL
        lets’ hear what he sounds like at trial..

  37. Tee says:

    This is a frye hearing Mr. West! I really don’t think this should be taking this long they are trying to delay.

  38. Tzar says:

    Why does the prosecution let him do that?

  39. lurker says:

    Oops! West just opened a door he hadn’t a oughta opened. He asked if being punched in the nose might alter the sounds–and Reich says that there was nothing in the recording to indicate an alteration to nasality.

    • Jun says:

      its more baloney

      They interrogated Fogen the same night as the murder and his voice did not change at all

      But even Reich provides proof that Fogen never suffered any nose attack

  40. Donna Flores says:

    Random question, where Zimmerman’s hands tested for gun powder?

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Yes. The result was positive.

      • Donna Flores says:

        both or just one

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        It doesn’t say. The report says that DMS-12 One gunshot residue kit collected from George Zimmerman was tested and GSR was found. It is on page 117 of the first discovery.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        I do wonder if this GSR evidence was collected at the same time GZ’s jacket was seized for evidence.
        I can’t reconcile hands positive with jacket pretty much negative.
        I may be wrong, but I interpret “1gr of lead” on the back of one sleeve as avoiding the word “negative” and hope it doesn’t get picked up on. I find it damn near impossible to dismiss, though.

        Like “white” shirt 911 caller…….

  41. whonoze says:

    Oh my, Don West. Don’t ask a question if you don’t know the answer. Reich just said there is no audio evidence that GZ had a significant nose injury. BOOM!

    • whonoze says:

      I typed my BOOM! before I saw ay2z’s BTW…

      • ay2z says:

        I know you did 🙂

      • ay2z says:

        And I am pleased to be in good company for it 🙂

        Always good company here.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’m sitting here listening to MOM ask a half dozen of smart sounding questions that are in fact abysmally stupid. He’s asking Reich about “bio metric system”, which he doesn’t realize that voice id/recognition is a sub field of bio metrics and a tiny one at that.

          All he’s doing is waiting to hear Reich use a word he thinks he understands and then fashions that word into a question, it’s making him look foolish and more foolish, because in most cases, the questions he’s fashioning around the words make no sense at all.

          • dianetrotter says:

            II’m sure he wishes he hadn’t paid for Doddington’s opinion.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yeah I caught that too late, I’m stuck in some kind of warp here. I didn’t even remember there was a hearing today until I finally got to an email message then I opened the viewer and I was right in the middle of it.

            As a general rule of thumb, when a lawyer doesn’t know diddly squat about the field of an expert, but tries to pretend that he does, he usually winds up asking stupid questions that make no sense at all to the expert. For example, Omar picks up “biometrics” and thinks, gee there’s something I understand, so he fashions a question using biometrics. But the question is stupid because it assumes that biometrics is a specific field on it’s own, when in fact it’s an umbrella that includes a terrific number of fields. So Omar looks like a jerk again.

    • ay2z says:

      Boom Like That… Croc Star

    • fauxmccoy says:

      or UN-BOOM! depending on ones’ perspective 😉

    • ic2fools says:

      @whonoze, let’s not forget Mr. Cracker wanted Don West to replace O’Mara, even sent him correspondence of same.

      After todays’ hearing I do believe even Mr.Cracker realizes West too is worthless, uninformative, weak trial lawyer.

      West can’t help but ask redundant, irrelevant questions, most of which he does not know the answer.

      I you can help me understand the meaning of :
      Defendant’s Redacted 3rd Supplemental Discovery page 2 bullet W) Property Appraiser Valuation,

      What the heck would the defense file appraised property value?

      • racerrodig says:

        “After todays’ hearing I do believe even Mr.Cracker realizes West too is worthless, uninformative, weak trial lawyer.”

        A hahahahahahaha The funniest part is that Fogen “spent” $750.00 an hour today for that shit……

        Like I used to say to the Zidiots on HP…..

        “…have you donated to his defense fraud, er, fund today ?? after all, he counting on you…..”

        But I know you remember those days !!! $750.00…X how many hours….probably 10 all told with travel…….then he gets to spend all the way up to 10 PM now……

        He who laughs last…..are all members of Team Trayvon

      • ic2fools says:

        It’ll cost a grip to pay West slow azz. Oh my goodness, took him an hour to get past one irrevelant point. Arrggghh!

        Buddy you missed it. A total snooze fest I tell ya’. I dozed off on Skeletor only to wake up looking stoopid wiping drool off mi arm.

  42. ay2z says:

    W goes for what R might have taken into account. R says he took into account accustical and aural patterns.

    Punched in nose Q, could that affect? W asks. R says it could, but no evidence of nasality on recording.


    • Woow! says:

      shaka laka!!

      I bet W hate he asked that question. No nasality no broken nose or blood filled nostrils.

      • Nef05 says:

        I’m betting West didn’t even realize the other implications of that question. In fact, he might still be “processing” it.

  43. Woow! says:

    What did the prosecutor just object to and JN say “…. well this is his cross examination”?

  44. Tzar says:

    There goes West introduces recanted testimony
    this guy is an ass

  45. Nef05 says:


  46. Stormwatch says:

    I just went back through the site and found professor Leatherman’s entry titled “Lawyer Games & Trayvon Martins Missing” GPS data for Feb 26, 2012. In spite of all this rain down here in southern Florida, my weekend just got a whole lot better. God Bless Professor Leatherman and all of you. I have learned so much and I am so thankful. Everyone please have a safe weekend.

  47. ay2z says:

    Judge Nelson reminds West that “This is a Frye Hearing”. I didn’t hear the objection, but JN sustains it.

  48. parrot says:


    “This. is. a. Frye. hearing.”

  49. Oh yeah West. Argue with the judge. That’ll win you brownie points.

  50. Malamiyya says:

    I stepped out of the room for a moment. Are they done for now?

  51. lurker says:

    Holey shirt–who cares how much he was paid or how long he worked on it?

    What does this have to do with the scientific acceptability of the methods being used?

    Object, object, object! Somebody please object!

    • He’s trying to say the guy was bribed to say what he’s saying.

      • lurker says:

        I get it. But, that isn’t exactly the intent of a Frye hearing as I understand it. Someone using accepted methodology can reasonably expect to be paid for their work without any implication of bias.

      • Jun says:

        Yes, but one could just as easily say to Team Fogen

        “How much is in your “defense fund”?”

        “Did you guys not state that you were working pro bono and then you asked for $400 an hour?”

        “Did you guys not mischaracterize a lot of the evidence you receive, such as your claim that the victim beat up homeless people when there was not even a video of that?”

        “Now considering the points, are you being paid for your opinion or to say what you say?”

  52. whonoze says:

    In short, there is nothing remotely new or novel about the methods Reich used to identify the words spoken in the 911 call. The methods have a degree of subjectivity, but that would (of course, yes?) go to weight, not admissibility.

  53. Did Reich say “Excuse me my chair just broke?”

  54. whonoze says:

    I like Reich, because his method is basically a more sophisticated version of something I can do, have done, and know works: isolate the phonemes by pulling them out of the real-time flow, repeating them, and compare them against known exemplars treated the same way.

    What separates Reich from Owen and Nakasone is his thorough old-school knowledge of phonetics, that is to say the basic mechanics of speech production.

  55. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I think what is being expressed is that the human analyst is just as good as a the computer at analyzing.

    Think of the hospital lab test for a blood sample. The technician programs the machine analyzer to look and test for a specific thing. Well, if a doctor uses a microscope, the doctor can analyze just as well + maybe catch something that they had not even considered looking for….for instance, if the main search is for lyme disease…..the doctor might also find lyme disease PLUS another illness or virus that the doctor might not have even considered looking for.

    • whonoze says:

      I think that’s a fairly good analogy YAHTC!

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Speech recognition is not even close to human hearing. It is however objective.

      • whonoze says:

        Also referencing some comments made earlier on this blog, there is no comparison between “speech recognition” – the computer technology used to translate a real-time flow of language into text, as used in an automatic dictation program – and the science of speaker or language identification as practiced by any of these experts.

  56. ay2z says:

    Defining ‘side bar speech’, West says this means less audible vs more audible, R thinks of it as what GZ says on the call to operator vs what he says to himself.

    Now they are onto the NEN call. West is confusing the calls, NEN or 911 or etc, so JN asks W to keep this in order with R’s order to avoid confusion.

    R talks about voice shifts…. melodic… etc

    W asks if others can hear what R hears,

    “These …. always get away… but not on me.”

    R says he uses standard methodology, with amplification, says the jury needs time to hear the signal, vs what is often done for a jury. Need to listen to speech in sort segments with ear phones on.

    W how did you actually ID he words vs just the sounds. R looks at the accoustic features making up the sounds. Coals (sp?)

  57. Tzar says:

    The defense is forgetting that, “these assholes they always get away” is bad enough

    • racerrodig says:

      NEN call = Motive, plain & simple.
      Means = gun
      Opportunity = “…are you following him..” “..yep…”

      Game ~ Set ~ Match !!

  58. fauxmccoy says:

    west “I’m not doing a very good job, i apologize”

    i second that motion!

  59. ay2z says:

    What if the defense brings in expert audio opinion, but does not give opinion reports, and when at trial, the state is faced with unknown methodology and no way to have it revealed and tested under Frye? That would cause a delay in trial for another F hearing).

    • Jun says:

      From my understanding, the defense is not allowed to do that

      Everything they want to bring in has to be given to the state before trial for them to analyze, rebut, and object in any way

      There’s no surprise crap allowed

      • Trained Observer says:

        In Florida trials because of discovery rules, the Perry Mason moments just don’t happen. Drama comes when a witness falls over in a faint, not when a surprise video or audio pops up out of nowhere.

      • Jun says:

        I even saw it portrayed on CSI (TV SHOW EPISODE)

        The prosecutor objected to a tape they never received before trial and then the judge told the defense that what they did is underhanded and then they allowed the state to analyze the tape and rebut it before it could be introduced

        I am guessing real trial is much the same, otherwise it would be a gong show and anyone could just make up crap as they went along and there would be no search for truth at trial

  60. whonoze says:

    West is Mariana’s Trench level in over his head.

    “I’m not doing a very good job of this.”

    No shit, Sherlock!

  61. Trained Observer says:

    With all this expert largely pointless yammer stretching on and on, Fogen may be getting lulled into a false sense of security. Next week starts the real deal, and six people will swing through the doors who have the remainder of his miserable life in their hands.

  62. SearchingMind says:


    Reich corroborates DeeDee: “get off, get off of me!”. This also corroborates State’s claim that GZ “confronted” Trayvon, etc. This is getting very good. Also, apparently, West did not learn to handle professors, especially the indefatigable, ubiquitous, almost omniscience ones. This West is getting his a$$ kicked.

    • parrot says:


      I have to congratulate those of you who heard “I’m begging you!”
      and “Get off!” among other things with your BIONIC naked ears.

      You knew this months ago!

      Muuuaahhh, to you all!

      • Tzar says:

        the get off is pretty easy
        the first second of w11’s call
        once you hear it, it’s impossible not to hear it

      • Jun says:

        “get off” I heard but “I am begging you” I never heard but you guys did and an old school expert heard it too so yall onto something

      • I heard the I’m begging you the very first time I listened to the tape and It has forever traumatized me.

      • racerrodig says:

        Here’s a great big hug right back..

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Only part of it is better ears, a bigger part of it is what sound file you manage to find. There are many people who have worked with that sound file and some are better at it than others, but I believe that most of us who heard those things, were just lucky enough to have found good sound files. AxiomAmnesia usually has some very loud sound files, you have to turn their sound down and that’s good.

    • Xena says:

      @SearchingMind. West reminds me of a woman in the courthouse who argued that she was there to see the “county clerk” because she disagreed with her real estate assessment. The “county clerk” is located in the county administration building; a separate building from the courthouse. Her focus was on the word “clerk” and she kept insisting that the “circuit clerk” was the “county clerk.”

  63. ay2z says:

    Amplify, not enhance, R says very minimal enhancement needed.

    West asks about “enhancements and such”, did you use speech recognition software to ID the speaker?

    R says that’s auto speaker recognition, he taught it, but never used it forensicly.

    W says you have the software and choose not to use it? (can’t understand the answer)

    W asks if he would rely on it (auto ID software), R says not typically and not in this situation.

    W you use aural spectrographic approach? R says at least that (missed the rest).

    W asks about pairs.

    (getting the idea that West may be wanting their non-opinion experts to listen to this, and then give their suggestions as work product, avoiding the expert reports altogether. Baez did this too, in the CA case, fought tooth and nail to not give expert opinion reports, but it didn’t fly with Judge Perry).

  64. Woow! says:

    Does anyone kow when the prosecution will depose Shellie Zimmerman; when defense will depose Crump?

    • Xena says:


      …when defense will depose Crump?

      Natalie Jackson put out a tweet after the Appellate Court’s decision was entered, and it sounds like the defense will not depose Crump. The defense’s agenda all along was to ask Crump questions beyond the scope of his interview of witness 8, and the court’s decision limited them to that issue.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        What a bunch of turkeys. I hope the Treestump shuts up about it.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides.

          What a bunch of turkeys. I hope the Treestump shuts up about it.

          They are most likely to just lie about it or speak without knowledge.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          This I’ve seen happen before. Judge Nelson is charged by the appellate court to keep to a narrow subject, which Judge Nelson, already said would be the case, when she made Attorney Crump the courts own witness.

          The deposition would take place in her chambers to protect against any misstatement going public. Omar asks Q1:, Objection outside the scope. Q2, Q3, : Objection outside the scope. Now the Judge has reason to take a firmer hand. She demands that if the defense has any questions that are within the scope, they will have to write them down and give them to her, she will ask the questions herself!
          The defense quickly writes a few questions, all are outside the scope, the judge glances at them and decides there are no further questions and orders the deposition closed! Omar comes away looking stupid.

          Apparently that’s not going to happen because Omar’s really only interested in putting on a show to bring in dollars, his client sits alone in the courtroom, no one, not even his lawyers want to talk to him during recesses, not even his own brother. At the end of the day, gz walks out of court escorted only by court personell and other strangers, while his lawyers race on ahead.

  65. West just likes making Reich spell aural.

  66. Jun says:

    One good thing about West being slow, boring, with no personality is he will not be memorable to a juror and judge and most will just tune him out

  67. Crap. West’s repetitive stupidity broke the camera.

  68. whonoze says:

    Video noise is more informative than Don West.

  69. groans says:

    Did they finish with Holien and Harnsberger earlier today? I sure hope so, because it’s 4 pm already!

    Why is the court letting these questions go on and on, as if it’s a deposition? (Not saying that Reich’s testimony isn’t great, though.)

    • ZCBest says:

      That is my question too. It’s time to shut this down!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      prolly cause the defense could not afford actual depositions and this is the best they can do to make up for it. why nelson is going along with it is beyond my pay grade.

  70. ay2z says:

    JMHO , not what R said–> This field is as much an art as a science.

  71. ay2z says:

    West seems to have a limited set of parameters he’s trying to fit into this field.

    Exact standards of quality, time etc, that are universally applied. This field is as much an art as a science.

    West is at least getting a bit of an education, on things like amplitude, noise floor, 16 bit amplitude, how does he know it’s 16 bit West asks? SPD R thinks, yes R says he called 911 center. Says his 911 calls from 2 sources, essentially identical except for redacted name and address etc, of caller.

    West must have called on or two of his experts with no opinion, while on the last break.

    • whonoze says:

      Exactly. If you can’t put it into a simple box, West can’t comprehend it at all. And he doesn’t actually know what’s in the boxes, just the names of the labels. And he wants someone to say “This box is OK; that box is Bad!” But it doesn’t work that way.

  72. Trained Observer says:

    How many more witnesses are set to testify for the Frye? Is JN going to pull the plug on this to close it out … or can she continue it and intersperse it with jury selection?

  73. Ty Flair says:

    Look at fogen stupid ass face when the expert said he heard Trayvon say I’m begging you.

  74. amsterdam1234 says:

    Next up. West deposing Crump accusing him of conspiracy to produce a barely audible witness interview.

  75. Tzar says:

    the problem is West is trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about, and he does not, but in addition he is trying to guide and trap the expert who knows more than he does.

  76. I’m sorry, but there is no special equipment or training required to hear the words. I heard them via a Youtube video on my not very expensive PC speakers.

  77. PYorck says:

    If they had got those witnesses there in person and they were allowed to use charts, then this wouldn’t be half as tedious.

  78. fauxmccoy says:

    omg — the utter dullness of west’s cross examination this morning has been redeemed, but not by west 🙂

  79. ay2z says:

    West asks about foreground and background. West has this mixed up– foreground is the 911 and caller, background, is the background of that, (outside)

    West wants a foreground and background in the background (sounds like). Getting at the ID’d speech fhru amplification.

    Very difficult to listen to in real time, R says.

    West wants ‘how much speech’ not masked/overlapped that he was able to isolate.

    R is saying WHAT!!? (as in what are you talking about only one ‘help’ on the recording, as West asked if he heard only one help.)

    Overlapping is less problem depending on how similar the speakers are, easier if different ie: child overlapping a man’s voice)

    West is out of his depth.

  80. racerrodig says:

    3:48 and Skeletor is getting crushed. Could a lawyer be any more lost that this guy.

  81. LOL!

    Give it to him, Reich!

  82. Tzar says:

    He is driving West crazy, this is so awesome!!

  83. “What??? What are you talking about?”

  84. whonoze says:

    And indeed West had no f-ing idea what Reich is talking about.

  85. whonoze says:

    Reich is inferring that West is an idiot. ‘It depends on the individual case, stupid.’

  86. looolooo says:

    Does anyone know if the statement “he warned me ……….?” made by Jon (the guy with his girlfriend on the phone with 911) has been analyzed?

    We all spoke about his statement about 6 weeks or so ago. But none of us could determine what he actually said after …..me.

    Or maybe that’s something the prosecution is saving for trial?

  87. ay2z says:

    West’s trying to get at the speech sample duration again, starting with general established standards of various groups of identifiers, then applying those standards to Reich’s sample.

    (if I got the gist of that)

    FBI uses 20 words
    National Association of Speech identifiers (?) 10 words, not specified by number of syllables, relate to seconds? Reichs doesn’t think 10 seconds applies for this, but FBI (think Reichs said 10 secs for them, but he’s not certain ?)

    W asks about Min length?

    Reichs talks about one diphone– more than a vowel, more than a consonant, less than a consonant-vowel

    Other groups? …. (?)

    W asks about ‘Qualify’ standards? ie for screams.

    W asks about emotionally driven speech.

    R are there standards when doing the work? Absolutely.

    W: do you not adopt the standards of the FBI?
    R says no.

    What are your internal standards– reasonable corpus of speech (?)

    Subjective analysis without hard and fast rules West asks, and R says if you can tell me a n example of a hard and fast rule, then I can tell you if I adopt them.

    West goes to sample size.

    Speaker ID standards, West asks what are they.
    R says reasearch tells us what kind of signal needed, ie: the signal may be short but enough to determine…. may not need the , ie 14 seconds of duration to determine (?)

    West trying to nail him down to hard and fast and absolute standards for every situation.

  88. How many times is West going to be allowed to ask the same question?

  89. chi1224 says:

    Is Reight okay to testify?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      he’s reicht on!

      his methods meet the ‘not new or novel technology’ test by a millenium. 🙂

  90. Cercando Luce says:

    All I think when I see fogen behind West is W18’s words, “the broad-built man.”

  91. SearchingMind says:

    State’s Experts will be allowed. It’s a guarantee. The science and methodology of these experts aside, it is evident that the 911-tape contains speech that is not audible to the average human. That speech is a crucial piece of evidence. By not allowing State’s experts to testify will tantamount to excluding that crucial pieces of admissible evidence from the jury. I can say with certainty that the State wins this round. If I am wrong, everyone here will get 1$ each.

  92. whonoze says:

    This is just awesome.

  93. Nate B. says:

    Long time reader – first time commenter – I do a bit of audio work professionally and was very curious in hearing Reich’s testimony. When he said that you can hear the non-screams with the naked ear on the 911 call, I downloaded the tape and listened carefully myself. Its literally the first thing on call 3 before the operator says “911, do you need police…” is a scream which sounds like it might be saying “I’m begging you”, on top of it is a different voice saying something three syllables, which Reich interprets as “these shall be”, which sounds more of a stretch, as the last syllable sounds like “pl-” to my ears. Would be interested in seeing any kind of time coded transcript to see where in the call they match up.

  94. groans says:

    I’m with Ay2z: This sounds more like defense DISCOVERY than what I would expect a Frye hearing to sound like.

  95. Woow! says:

    I missed the last 30 minutes. What happened?

    • West got his butt kicked by a speakerphone.

      • Woow! says:

        Teehee!!! I hope I can find it on youtube. This is not a Frye hearing but a delay tactic or fishing expedition by the defense. I hope the judge put an end to this soon.

        Both experts today as well as the defense expert yesterday have admitted that the methods used to distinguish between the voices is not new or novel. Frye test passed. As the great Tamar Braxton would say moveon.org.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      It was like watching a Charlie Chaplin movie.

  96. bettykath says:

    Reich has West totally confused. The more West tries to understand the worse it gets. 😀

  97. Recess to go to Walmart and buy a better damn phone?

  98. YQ says:

    Robert and West=very naive about technology and the science of sound.

    10 min recess… this is good since Reich has peaked interest with his proven and tested method. They might have no choice but to bring him into trial.

  99. ay2z says:

    “That goes back to the days where the spectrogram was used ‘extensively’? ”

    West wants to challenge the spectrogram as a voiceprint back in the era when.

    They are taking 10. West is confused.

    Reichs is NOT confused.

    • boyd says:

      he he he. West ran into a guy he can’t bully or trick.

    • Big Willie says:

      Reich has West so confused and frustrated, that West needed a break.

    • YQ says:

      That spectrogram method is going to be hard for him to challenge. They had been using that technology for years and years. You’re not even going to find someone still living with a subjectory claim against his method, let alone know enough about it to contest it.

      If this goes into trial…. Zimmerman goes into prison. This Dr. Reich guy knows his work. He might be the last audio guy left on the planet that uses this method.

  100. Tzar says:

    The defense’s real problem is that there should have never been a Frye hearing

    their problem #2 is they don’t know but can be damn sure that the reason that Reich’s report is not complete is that he is saving the piece de resistance for the trial and it will be dropped on their head like a two ton anvil.

  101. FactsFirst says:

    hell naw.. did west just look at his watch? boy bye!

  102. Two sides to a story says:

    West: I think where I’m confused . . .


  103. ay2z says:

    West “…. we’ll just start back at the beginning”.

    West wants Reichs to go through the tape from the beginning and Identify every speaker along the way.

    Is this plan a Frye hearing issue, to gain discovery? Rather than methodology.

    • ay2z says:

      He’s gone off the Frye issue, and wants a transcript of the 911 call evidence.

      “Help” before the gunshot, Reich says ‘do you want me to play it for you?’ West, no, not yet.

      West “I’m sorry that I’m a bit confused about this.”

      State is exhaling a breath.

  104. whonoze says:

    West looks like he’s going to pop an aneurysm. Karma indeed.

  105. fauxmccoy says:

    west is getting his knickers in a knot, steam about to come out his ears having to listen to another old fart. this is priceless.

  106. amsterdam1234 says:

    West looks confused.

    • Xena says:

      @amsterdam1234. I’m watching O’Mara — keeps reaching up to his left ear. I think Trayvon is messing with him. LOL!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That goes back to your mismatched socks comment, yes?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      • Girlp says:

        I hope he haint’s O’mara all night tonight and Fogen too.

        • Xena says:

          @Girlp. Several of us discussed our impression that Trayvon was a practical joker who did things to make people laugh. He would not cause others harm, even emotional harm such as fear. He would, however, do things to agitate them. And, we discussed looking for signs in the courtroom of his presence.

          O’Mara’s birthday is 4 days after Trayvon’s. It was an astrological tsunami for GZ to kill an Aquarian, and be defended by an Aquarian.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        • Xena says:

          @yahtc. When I first saw “The Watcher,” I thought LLMPapa had outdone himself. That is one powerful video.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It certainly is, Xena!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, I believe Trayvon is sending strength, love, and hugging vibes to his mom and dad to get them through all of this.

        • Xena says:


          And, I believe Trayvon is sending strength, love, and hugging vibes to his mom and dad to get them through all of this.

          For sure.

      • Girlp says:

        Xena, I am a very logical but I’ve had and seen some strange things in my life as hard as can be for me to accept some things I believe there is life after death and that sometimes when issues are unresolved for some who have passed they need the issue taken care of. I’m just beginning to understand some things about astrology and am sure Trayvon is very upset to see his precious parents in such pain and no resolution you can tell he loved them dearly so I’m hoping he’s in Fogen’s face day and night maybe that’s why they’ve drugged him. I want justice for this child.

        • Xena says:

          @Girlp. I’m a dreamer. Before I looked for internet sources seeking justice for Trayvon, I had a dream about him. In fact, it was because of that dream that I became involved. I posted the dream here;

          Trayvon likes to laugh and I would bet that he was a practical joker. Is he playing with GZ? Yes. GZ doesn’t realize what is actually happening. When the recording was played in court, GZ became angry. He blames Trayvon for the mess that he’s in — If only Trayvon had not ran. If only Trayvon had not screamed. If only had Trayvon allowed GZ to physically detain him.

  107. truthseeker66 says:

    phone conference bad idea for court!!

  108. Leisa says:

    West doesn’t like it when the witness is doing what he did to Bernie during his questioning

  109. Xena says:

    This is the problem with having witnesses testify over the phone. There is no visual to interrupt the speaker.

  110. ay2z says:

    Reichs (paraphrased) Who is doing the identifying, defines the standards the person is qualified to use.

  111. boyd says:

    I don’t care how he sounds Reich knows his shit. MOM lied again.

  112. Tzar says:

    ha ha ha
    I am relishing West having to listen to Reich ramble over the phone
    ha ha ha
    this guy can only be examined in person

  113. Wests attempts to play gotcha with words are so clumsy it’s sad.

  114. FactsFirst says:

    Old skool looks like he’s ready for West..

  115. whonoze says:

    This is a comedy of errors.

  116. groans says:

    Geez. That speaker phone looks like some we have in the office. And it acts like a two-way radio – i.e., if one end makes any sound, it cuts off the other end. So words are cut off all the time. It’s really terrible for conference calls!

  117. ay2z says:

    He got a pat from one of his lawyers a moment ago, he looked more focused and pursed lips.

  118. West and Reich? God help us all.

  119. YQ says:

    Oral characteristics? Hmmmm, impressive.

  120. FactsFirst says:

    OMGoodness! fogen and that weird eye roll binking thing he does is creeping me the heck out.. He remind me of that alien will smith chased on top of a building in the beginning of MEN IN BLACK 1.. check it out at about 2:35 of this video real quick… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icErgB_ZmFM
    lil wayne aint the only alien running around here I see…

  121. ay2z says:

    “hundreds characteristics in the spectral range… “

  122. Jun says:

    I dont feel he sounds that bad. He sounds like one of my high school teachers who taught science. Reich is fairly clear to me.

  123. ay2z says:

    “Trayvon or not Trayvon, a simple…. decision”

  124. ZCBest says:

    Fatso made it easy…see he was a God Send to the defense through all his talking. I rescind my previous opinion, he actually might be good for something…shooting himself in the foot!

  125. ay2z says:

    This is not tipsy.

  126. ay2z says:

    wait to hear what junior has to say about this, he’s already called him a voodoo practicioner on Crimesider.

    • Jun says:

      Joonyah is a dumb ass

      He calls him a voodoo practitioner yet he claims he can tell it’s Fogen?

      FOH Robbie The Racist

    • Cercando Luce says:

      The State is trying so hard not to make this a trial about race issues, and RZJr is trying so hard to get every race-based dig in, just for spite.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        As someone who practices i so want to throttle the ever lovin shite out of him.

        • Xena says:

          @rayvenwolf. Do you know anything about palm reading? In discovery are photos of GZ’s hands. Several of us sometime ago were wondering what the lines say.

          • rayvenwolf says:

            its been YEARS since I’ve done palmestry. Would have to see if I have any of my old books still lying around.

          • Xena says:


            its been YEARS since I’ve done palmestry. Would have to see if I have any of my old books still lying around.</blockquote?

            Could you could you would you would you?? If you find them, let me know I'll see if I can find the link with the enlarged pics of GZ's hands palms up.

          • rayvenwolf says:

            No sweat. Will look tomorrow since it looks like TS Andrea is putting a damper on the beach party I was supposed to go to.

          • Xena says:


            No sweat. Will look tomorrow since it looks like TS Andrea is putting a damper on the beach party I was supposed to go to.

            Sorry to hear that the weather is not cooperating with your beach party plans. Wow! I haven’t been to a beach since moving out of Chicago in 1979. LOL!

          • ic2fools says:

            Hi ladies reading your comments I found this pic, hope it helps. Also in my pages settings I was able to enlarge the photo, hopefully you too will be able too.

          • Xena says:

            @ic2fools. Thanks for the photo. There is one where GZ is holding both hands out, palms up. I’ll see if I can find it again.

          • ic2fools says:

            YVW, let me know if you can’t I’ll help search..

          • Xena says:

            @ic2fools. I went back and found the previous discussion on this. It was posted on this blog back in February, and the site where I found the up-close photos of GZ’s palms is an anti-Trayvon site. I now remember the site and if Rayvenwolf locates the book and feels comfortable, I’ll post the link while gritting my teeth. LOL!.

          • ic2fools says:

            Ain’t that the truth, IC those hands and know the horrible deed they did.

            I googled GZ hands and that is the pic the populated. Among others of him, eeewwwww last thing I want to see before sleeping.

            Don’t want nigtmares…..

          • ic2fools says:

            Every word you wrote is true! defense can not keep up the pace, Judge Deborah is ready to do the dam thang. court convenes 9:30am on a Saturday. West is not up to it in his obvious physical condition. Omar well Omar dam, he’ll begin throwing in the towel very soon.

            Fogen may as well put a sammich his jacket pocket and be ready to take the perp position. Baliff to his immediate right soon will say stand up and place your hands behind your back, placing cuffs on him escorting him to lockup

            Girl I thought that was your video, I absolutely love your channel. Hope you make more as the trial progresses, your work is exceptional.

            Well, trying to go to bed, before I do I’m changing my gravatar to ‘No Skeletor’ not to happy with this one.

            So see tomorrow. As faux says:

            Same Skeletor Time, same Skeletor Channell

            lol lol

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Reich just made a funny, he said there were participants from 6 of the 7 continents “there were no participants from Antarctica”, yeah well, Antarctica lost it’s native inhabitants about 150 million years ago. Hahaha… Reich is a hoot with the paleontological crowd. 😆

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Not Reich, Doddington! Anyway they just shut’er down, experts stranded at the airport or some such. Foggen left the court room alone except for his two security guys. Bro, ran long time ago, Rene was the last spectator out of the court, the lawyers seem to be ignoring foggen as much as possible.

  127. ay2z says:

    But, because Dr. Reichs is a speech expert, he may have had a lifelong speech impediment that caused him to go into this field. That would also fit with drama included in his early academic studies.

    Remember a black actor who was able to overcome his own speech impediment to become a great actor, and narrator? Field of Dreams, Seven-Up commercials………… and so much more.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      The UnCola. “Mahvelous. Ab-sol-utely Mahvelous.” That guy?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I just did some Google searching and Dr. Alan R. Reich has written articles for the “Cleft Palate Journal”

    • whonoze says:

      The 7-Up Un-Cola man was Geoffrey Holder. Field of Dreams was James Earl Jones. According to Wikipedia, Jones stuttered as a child.

      I took Speech Path in college and our professor was a stutterer.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i had to take a fair amount of linguistics classes for the anthro degree, fortunately not taught by stutterers, but damn interesting subject material.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Good golly, HOW did you know that? I was badgering my father a couple of years ago about this actor, because the casting director who cast him was a friend of my dad’s.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Sheesh, I could have googled Uncola and not bothered you.

    • Xena says:


      Remember a black actor who was able to overcome his own speech impediment to become a great actor, and narrator?

      Maybe Geoffrey Holder? The most recent is an actor named Godfrey, originally from Nigeria. Sidney Poitier also overcame a very heavy accent.

    • parrot says:

      Don’t know if you’re referring to James Earl Jones, but he did overcome a speech impediment (stuttering) and became a respected actor and narrator.

  128. KittySP says:

    Oh Lord. Just forget the expert testimony.

  129. SoulSistaWoo says:

    OMG! Did Dr. Reich just say he was using some other type of equipment during WORLD WAR II!!!!

    • ZCBest says:


    • Cercando Luce says:

      That makes me think he is in his eighties.

    • YQ says:

      LOL-he was saying that spectral analysis has been used since WW2 such as to prove that his method is tested and proven. Yeh, he’s old but old is okay. There is substantial hearing loss at his age but he’s also using computers and k-weighting meters to measure the sound pressure. Sounds like he came up with the same conclusion that Tom did using an even older method.

      • ZCBest says:

        totally agree…old is excellent…he has experience and his expertise is super hard to refute. He just might be the bomb.com. lol

    • whonoze says:

      Not him personally, I don’t think. He got his undergraduate degree in the early seventies. If he retired in 2000 at the age of 65, that would put him in his late 70’s now.

  130. Tzar says:

    I wonder when the defense will claim that Reich is racist 🙂

  131. groans says:

    Example of why telephone testimony is not a great idea. But the defense specifically requested the court to allow it!

    Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!

  132. RobertSF says:

    He sounds like the “old feller” character you see in Wild West movies.

    • ay2z says:

      You mean Walter Brennan? He had a certain yodel quality in his southern exaggerated twang.

      • RobertSF says:

        Ha, he will do, though I wasn’t thinking of him specifically. Every Wild West movies seems to have a grizzled old codger who hangs out at the saloon.

  133. ay2z says:

    Oh oh, they can’t stop him.

  134. ay2z says:

    Not foreground noise signals for the most part.

  135. Leisa says:

    What the hell was that? Those kinds of sounds scare me.

  136. ay2z says:

    It is problem that a minor stroke can leave facial muscles damaged. We are speculating affecting speech by no mental debilitations.

    • Leisa says:

      His speech does sound like someone who has had a stroke but it does not sound like his mental processes were affected if that is in fact the case.

      • Girlp says:

        My brother and my aunt had strokes my aunt who is deceased now mental processes were excellent my brother’s mental processes are perfect as well.

  137. Tee says:

    Okay I don’t understand anything this witness is saying

  138. groans says:

    Kinda sounds like Barney Frank…

    • groans says:

      Maybe he was born with a cleft palate. Could spur an interest in speech and speech pathology, which he studied at UConn.

    • groans says:

      Apparently, Barney Frank was born with a cleft lip or cleft palate (scroll way down):


    • Cercando Luce says:

      Poorly fitting dentures? It’s horribly expensive to replace them ($1500) and the jaw changes shape continuously once the teeth are gone.
      (So floss and brush and rinse every day!)

      • Cercando Luce says:

        So his dentures may be over 6 months old.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        this reminds me of phone conversations with my father in his last years. although at one point, he was a brilliant CPA and IRS special agent. he never lost that intelligence, but it certainly became more difficult to understand him as he advanced in years between COPD and ill fitting dentures. (we don’t even need to venture into the oddities produced by his bi-polar illness.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Faux, my dad was also a brilliant professor type with bipolar – and he finally went into dementia for a short time before his death.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          interesting two sides — it tends to coincide with genius. sorry you had to deal with the senile dementia too though, that sounds rough.

    • Tzar says:

      definitely reminds me of Frank
      I have to say that he sounds sharp as a tack

      • fauxmccoy says:

        yup, the fact that he may be old, but still mentally agile is clear. he’s certainly bothered to stay relevant with current technology which speaks volumes.

  139. Not to be rude but is Dr. Reich a victim of some sort of head trauma? He has a speech impediment.

  140. Leisa says:

    He sounds older than dirt. Hope he lasts through the trial.

    • Xena says:


      He sounds older than dirt. Hope he lasts through the trial.

      Reich was a professor. They can talk an hour non-stop, read an entire book in one night, and write a 50 page review on it by noon the next day. 🙂

      • Leisa says:

        After hearing him give West the smacking he deserves I have no doubt about him. I saw a video with him that I need to go watch just to match his face with his voice. 🙂

  141. whonoze says:

    This is not good for the State: a speech recognition expert who sounds like he needs a hearing aid.

  142. KittySP says:

    Dr. Reich sounds tipsy!

  143. ay2z says:

    Oh my, another history degree. Retired from academia, not from life, not from work.

  144. Tzar says:

    There is nothing novel about Reich, he sounds like he has been doing voice analysis since the middle ages 🙂

  145. Thank you for reminding me why I hate speakerphones.

  146. SoulSistaWoo says:

    Is it me or is Dr. Reich’s sound bad?

  147. ay2z says:

    Oh, that’s not right, they, the state and the defense both just identified Dr. Reichs!! No Frye needed for the Skype technology to bring him into the courtroom electronically??? 😉

  148. whonoze says:

    OK, now this is the guy I’ve been waiting to hear from.

  149. Xena says:

    LOOK OUT! Here comes Dr. Reich.

  150. whonoze says:

    Well, I did fall asleep and missed the end of West’s dialog with Owen, and Manthai’s redirect. It sounds like Owen defended himself fairly well in regards to West’s critique’s — essentially arguing that his findings have value even though they’re probabilistic.

    One thing Owen said — and West did not question him about — bothers me. He says he pitch shifted his exemplars of GZ and raised the level to make them suitable matches for screaming. It doesn’t work that way. Depending on the technique used, pitch shifting alters the waveform in different ways. And the timbre of screams is different from normal speech, not just the pitch and the level. Loud talking is not screaming.

    What Owen would need to do to give his findings scientific validity is prove that it CAN produce a positive match between a known voice talking, and a known voice screaming off mic for a short time, but under a blind comparison. That is, Owen would have to be given several samples of talking, several samples of screaming, all unlabeled, and be able to correctly hit both the matches and the mismatches. Unless he can do that, his method can not pass for scientific.

  151. tonya B says:

    why does Nejame keep repeating that the experts are trying to figure out who is yelling HELP ME HELP ME sounds like he is trying to say that it was fogen remember he said he was yelling help help me omg I call bullshit on that Nejame

    • YQ says:

      Nejame? I don’t like the guy. He had the inside scoop on Judge Reckseidler straight from the gate. Emotionally he sounds like he sides with the defense. He doesn’t seem like he’s giving unbiased coverage.

    • boyd says:

      If you want a guy to get away with murder, keep saying over and over that his story is hard to challenge because we don’t know if he’s lying.

      If 100 experts said we believe it was the kid they would still say “but George said it was him”

  152. boyd says:

    Listening to the kid’s voice, no way in hell the screaming is Zimmerman.

    Using the defense standard for a murder conviction most murders would get away with it. Most people do not murder and leave witnesses.

    This trial is a farce.

  153. tonya B says:

    Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office – City of Jacksonville


    May 20, 2010 – ASA John Guy and Richard Mantei were instrumental in securing a murder conviction and death penalty sentence for Robert Peterson for the …

  154. ay2z says:

    Since when would there be a Frye hearing without experts to contradict the experts, via some form of report of opinion?

    Are they hiding a defense strategy of no strategy?

    Their defense seems to have nothing to do with any of this, except conspiracy and other theories of client shouldn’t have been arrested anyway, he admitted he killed Trayvon, but he is innocent and should have been proven innocent by those deciding whether to arrest him that night or shortly thereafter, or not.

  155. Ty Flair says:

    The defense is trying there best to delay this trail with all these so claim witness.

  156. Xena says:

    What the hell is wrong with GZ’s eyes? Looks like a neurological problem. The way he is rolling them is scary.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Contacts, nerves, sleepiness, general weirdness!

      • looolooo says:

        It’s probably the drugs causing all that eye rolling. I know people who take Zoloft, Prozac, etc, and they all do that too sometimes.

  157. Xena says:

    O’Mara has the itchies. I wonder if that’s Trayvon tickling him? 🙂

  158. Leisa says:

    Figures. The defense is not obligated to turn over expert reports to the State. Are they kidding? I thought they couldn’t get any more disgusting. Wrong again.

  159. ZCBest says:

    To all of my hip hop heads…I hear the song “Shook Ones” playing in my head. The defense attorneys are more nervous than hookers in church!!!

  160. Tee says:

    The shit is about to hit the fan West, looks worried or is it just me?

  161. Tee says:

    West want to withhold evidence smh!

  162. truthseeker66 says:

    W: I did not receive any writings I received emails
    JN: that would b writings. LOL

  163. Trayvon Martin’s Voice Recording

    • YQ says:

      thanks @southerngirl. That puts things into perspective for me. I wonder if that soundbyte of Trayvon has been tested already. His voice sounds more of the match IMO.

      • Indeed it does. He has a cute voice too.

      • YQ says:

        …and doesn’t sound anything like Zimmerman. They have absolutely got to let audio forensics in bc Fogen would lie to his grave that it was him.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s much less deep than the Treestumpers keep harping about with their one word “hello” sample from the 7-11.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Listen at 0:56 and you hear a long “Heeeeelp” in a very stressed out screeching voice, and then immediately after the OP asks “you think he’s yelling help?”and the witness replies “Yes” a very short sharp quick “Help” identical in tone and stress to the ones of GZ’s exemplars.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Forgot to say the short sharp help I think GZ’s is at 1:02/3 aprox and starts almost as the witness finishes saying “yes”, and nobody is going to tell me a person’s voice, at least an untrained voice, can go from a screeching stressed out sound to a normal voice, the same pathetic voice GZ’s did for the exemplars, in the space of 6 seconds.

        Just don’t believe it and if the experts get in, which IMO is probably imperative to the case so I really hope they do, then we will hear more about their why’s and wherefores than we hear today.

    • kllypyn says:


  164. ay2z says:

    Thoughts on probability.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Oh good, are they finally fixing JN’s audio or is it some experiment with the audio as I just had to do something so missed up to now?

  165. YQ says:

    The audio has a lot to do with what was captured and how it was captured. Isolating a voice through certain atmospheric conditions does cause the voice to change some but IF THAT PERSON IS AN EXPERT, he should know how filters change a voice-what to use and what not to use. So the lady who called was talking over some of those screams, the convoluted audio can’t be used, but those parts where the screams are isolated could be used. That’s why he looped the audio, so he could get the program to start analyzing the data with what he already had on GZ. Plus you have to consider the fact that what was audible was being heard from a distance away with a great deal of reverb in between those condos. The audio was not great BUT Owen didn’t volunteer to test the audio, he was offered the job and he took it. This is what was handed off to him. That’s the nature of his line of work.

    Now, with the audio not being great, that’s not his problem. He was right. It is what it is. It’s probably not Zimmerman’s voice. But add that to the fact that no other expert is saying that it was Zimmerman’s voice, that it was either inconclusive or not likely that it was Zimmerman screaming.

    MOM and team are driving a truck into the mud. Maybe Tom’s method wasn’t the absolute best way but I doubt someone being in audio for so long is subject to as much human error as they are trying to make it seem. I think that even if they told him to use an older and more proven method, he’d come up to the same conclusion because the audio is not that great to begin with.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Of course, we have this:

      • YQ says:

        I think he did an exemplar of GZ yelling for help and that also came back improbable. But even if you have average-functioning ears, it would be difficult to envision GZ’s voice from this audio sample being able to morph into what was heard on the 911 calls. I mean, a grown man at 29 screaming like that??? With a gun on him???

  166. standingwave says:

    First post, long time lurker: Let us not forget that GZ himself said the screams don’t even sound like him. “It doesn’t even sound like me.” (To Serino and Singleton on Feb. 29, 2012.) No bearing on this hearing, of course.

  167. tonya B says:

    http://www.cfnews13.com/chat.html @Malisha @ Xena and others I believe these ppl could use your expertise its sickening the comments these ppl post

    • Malisha says:

      I find it difficult to post comments on those news channels things and I don’t think the comments posted there make any difference to the final product, which is the TRIAL. I doubt any prosecutor is interested in what people shout out or emote to their news sources. It would be like recording and considering what folks shout at their televisions when they get excited. Who cares?

      • tonya B says:

        thank you malisha you made me feel a lil better I just got annoyed with Mark Nejame he seems to be so biased he is clearly for Gz stating that the experts are tring to determine who yelled help me help me ???? I almost fell out my chair

      • Xena says:


        I find it difficult to post comments on those news channels things and I don’t think the comments posted there make any difference to the final product, which is the TRIAL.

        I agree. Readers who venture into the comment section on news sites generally do not go beyond the first page of comments. Zidiots have reason for why they camp out in comment sections — to force positive comments into subsequent pages where they are not read.

        As people take interest in GZ’s case during trial and want to participate in discussion, and search the internet for sources, they are more likely to read blogs than comment sections on news sites.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s why I sometimes, if I have time, come in late and post something pro-Trayvon on news site, because Fogen supporters work overtime to push TM support to back pages.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides.

          That’s why I sometimes, if I have time, come in late and post something pro-Trayvon on news site, because Fogen supporters work overtime to push TM support to back pages.

          Yes. Zidiots are verbal vandals.

  168. Two sides to a story says:

    I’m back to listening to what I missed. It’s interesting that Owen feels Fogen said “effing punks” not coons on the NEN call based on his procedure of cleaning the tape up.

    • ay2z says:

      This is why the state brought up the point with Owen, that scientists can disagree, like lawyers disagree. The state can offer both Owens and Reichs coming from different methodology and backgrounds and experience.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Sure puts defense in a bind … No matter what the rest of us think on the coon issue, here’s a state expert who sez “punks” … should they fight to keep him out? Or let him in? West is still processing.

  169. Stormwatch says:

    TM and GZ were both using cell phones. Is there any way the state can track their GPS locations while they were on the phone(s). I bet it shows TM moving away from GZ and GZ continually moving toward the kid.

  170. tonya B says:

    omg they are goin in on Mr Owen I cant take mark nejame he was all over Baez during the Casey Anthony trial but now it seems as if he is for Omara and Gz apparently he hasn’t read any of the evidence … besides that he has 2 daughters himself I guarantee if you were to ask him if god forbid his daughters were in a situation like that im 100% sure that he would be able to determine their voice when in distress it doesn’t take a rocket science to determine that ..I wont be watchin any local channels for the trial ill watch on MSNBC tryin to keep my sanity

  171. tonya B says:


    • ay2z says:

      NeJame is in this for publicity, same with past case, but he played his cards well to have a following that believed his motives were other.

      • tonya B says:

        I cant take him at all and I would like to let channel 13 know that he is very biased maybe because he and omara are friends he was all over Baez in the Casey trial and now he is throwing Trayvon under the bus I cant take him

  172. ay2z says:

    Q to mobile phone users, can you even record conversations or take photos or when you are connected with a call, given enough battery power?

  173. Woow! says:

    MOM and West are perfect examples that it is easy to study and take a test (bar exam) but that does not mean you are a good lawyer. These two are the dumbest of the dumb. I have worked with plenty of no nothing attorneys in my day but geewhiz…..

    Zimmerman should appeal for new counsel because these two are failing him miserably.

    If I were a criminal, I wouldn’t hire either of these jokers to represent me. If they have not ruined their reputations by now they surely will before the end of this trial.

    I bet attorneys all over the U.S. (especially FL) are snickering at those Zidiots. I can imagine the jokes 🙂

    • ay2z says:

      Then there’s politicians, like White of yesterday and his promotion of working for the “Faaaii-nne people of Nasau County” mantra.

      What’s really bad is bar associations allow lawyers who spend their career in politics, not practicing any form of law, then they go into trial work and ruin people’s lives.

      • Woow! says:

        I worked for a baby attorney who did not want to listen to the more seasoned partners in the firm. I had the pleasure of going to court with her and the judge called the firm and asked that they send someone down to the court house because she did not know what to do.

        I was whispering in her ear what to say and when to object (the judge allowed it to a point, was familiar with my face from other proceedings and knew I was a seasoned paralegal).

        The attorney got annoyed with me and tried to scold me in court. The judge (who I love to this day) told her she need to listen to the paralegal because it is apparent she knows more about court decorm and procedures than you do.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        hey, but if you need to know which way the roads run in nassau county, he’s yer man … (or if you need to determine a pulp mill from a pogey, whatever that may be)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Good for you Woow. Ain’t that the case in many fields !

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i’d cross ol’ wes white off your list as well. same with sonner and uhrig. well, at least we have a list of lawyers in florida not worth contacting should we ever need one.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Your best lawyers are:

      a. Stay out of trouble. When trouble comes knocking, just walk away. There is always a good alternative you can live with.

      b. Stay away from the government (as much as possible).

      For some lawyers, legal practice is a calling. For others it is a business based on cost-benefit analysis. They who fit into the former category are very rare to come across.

  174. ay2z says:

    uplisting Patricia’s post…

    audio of Trayvon’s voice. Who is this Kent Gibson who says the screams are GZ’s?


    • ay2z says:

      This audio came from cache on Trayvon’s cell phone, Gutman says. (btw, this was this morning’s GMA)

    • ZCBest says:

      If anything at all, Trayvon’s voice sounds high pitched for sure, much more likely to let our those screams that Fucking Fogen. Just like lots of teenage boys I knew and know through my community. And this Kent Gibson is just a loser. I want his CV!

      My blood is boiling…don’t make a black woman mad…arghhhh.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Isn’t interesting that gz did not think to really let out desperate, loud screams for his voice sample?

      Probably was impossible for him because he had NEVER been in a desperate, life-threatening situation.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        And he somehow didn’t register, “in real time,” that his victim was screaming. I think due to mind-altering substances that SPD failed to look for.

        Also, in the Wagner photo of Z in the police car, his pupils were contracted into pinpoints, although it was dark out. The Iphone flash is too brief to contract the pupils like that. More indication of mind-altering substances.

  175. Recess or done for the day?

  176. ay2z says:

    Say, how about that phone call GZ was photographed making within 3 minutes of the gunshot?

    What are the chances that there would be a recording of that call still anywhere available? Or voice message?

    Because that would go to his elevated level of excitment, heartrate, immediately after killing a young person.

    But then, we have the human EMT observers and Smith also, and other witnesses who can talk about that.

    • willisnewton says:

      That’s a great point about the call GZ seems to be making as the “bloody head” photo was taken by W13/Jon. Maybe he left a voicemail on Shellie’s phone.

      maybe the state has it.

      Maybe the audio experts have it and are preparing to use it at trial.

      to quote Owen: there’s always hope

      Especially since that voicemail would be something like : holy smokes go move my truck there’s a twelve pack on the front seat and I just murdered somebody!

    • bettykath says:

      It’s just been exposed that the guv has been collecting all raw data from all major email and internet providers. It’s been exposed that they have been collecting the who calls whom, when and for how long from Verizon. I suspect that they are doing this from all other providers, as well. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they were collecting the content of the calls as well. There was a lawsuit some time ago where they had a room of their own where they could collect content. Maybe this could be subpoenaed. lol

  177. ay2z says:

    West concludes this all means standards don’t mean anything? Owen says ‘that’s rediculous statement’.

    He and about 10 other individuals, including Nakasone, wrote those standards. Recommendations. Please let me finish….

    No tapes are pristine wonderful tapes, they are what they are, and try to do best job to make determination.

    West says ‘you substantially had to deviate’. Owen said no, didn’t substantially deviated.

    Owen asks West to define his term ‘phonetically balanced’.

    Owen: In the world of academics that may be true, that’s like saying ‘it’s not perfect so I can’t do anything…. (paraphrased).

    Two days, 6 grand payment, plus what you make on software.

    Owen “LOL”

    State– why chuckle, explain.

    Owen, not a lot of money, few good lunches down in Florida. No huge influx of sales since render of opinion.

    Owen: “There is always hope.”


    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think Owen showed a really positive side to his “probable” determination that the software is acceptable and in use, and highlighting why he felt that the screams are not Fogen’s.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      That’s what Owen should’ve done more often. Ask West to define the jargon he was throwing out there. West doesn’t have a clue. Damn, I heard him say “what did you put in the machine?”

  178. SoulSistaWoo says:

    I am LOL & CTFU at the same time… West us of the word phonetics with an audiologist… gets challenged to define his use of the word and is forced to admit he doesn’t know what he means…

    what an idiot!

  179. fauxmccoy says:

    mr west is ‘hooked on phonix’

  180. Zia B. says:

    Then he made Skeletor explain his thought process…and then said not true!!! LOVES IT!

    • ay2z says:

      West threw out a couple words and a notion to wing it and hope to save face. Oops, there must have been a way for a lawyer to turn this on the witness instead of having to respond to the witness.

  181. Zia B. says:

    Owen just got gangsta on Skeletor! He said, “I wrote those standards!”

    BAM!!!! I felt that slap, it was the kind that somebody reaches way down to their gut and brings their hand up with the quickness and full force of the wrath of GOD!

    Skeletor’s head has to be ringing.

    • ic2fools says:

      Good grief recess thank you! I dozed off on Skeletor got drool all on my arm damn.

      I’m taking a quick power nap, we’ll be luck if only Skeletor will STFU!!!!

      • ZCBest says:


        I so wish he would STFU. I would rather listen to the high frequency sound some more. Wonder if I can hit that high note? *mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi* Hmm, probable!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i’m increasing the caffeine intake while i have the chance. if this morning’s cross examination by west is any indication, i’ll be needing it.

        • ic2fools says:

          babigirl we got a long trial ahead of us. ’cause ole’ sparky west ain’t gonna get any better before monday.

          store – stock coffee – bed – sleep is all i can think…..

          • fauxmccoy says:

            amen, sister. i’m gonna need an IV drip i fear. man, this dude is better than the sleeping meds my doc prescribes. honest!

          • ic2fools says:

            screamin HAHA!!! IV drip whooo!!!! hahahaaaa darn fauxi mi sides hurtin from laughlin!!!!

            i felt stoopid when i woke up from dozin off a bit ago. a funny site glad no one saw me droolin on myself aaaahahahaaaaa……

        • ic2fools says:

          hey fauxie, recess now, they’re at lunch. i bet sparky chews as slower than he speaks.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            i’m making sweet tea. tea sooo strong that my family refers to it as ‘tea basing’. i’m hoping that’ll do the trick. now wipe that drool off, sistah!

          • ic2fools says:

            oh gosh they have started

            woke up

            may go on til 6pm

          • ic2fools says:

            wiping drool lol lol

            jus started may go on til 6pm today….

      • pat deadder says:

        ic2fools and faux dozed off got drool and iv drip I’m laughing so hard tears are streaming down my ceeks.

        • ic2fools says:

          I hollered hahahaha reading your reply!!!!

          Darn lol lol lol the truth is too funny ay!

        • ic2fools says:

          Just found out recess til morning, JN was serious when she said we are moving forward.

          If slo Skeletor would not be so redundant and slow we would get somewhere..

    • Winning!!!!!!!

      Loves it!

  182. Tee says:

    Oh god, no no more West please sit! Making objection and can’t even tell the judge why.

  183. Tee says:

    I like this guy I’m sorry to say that he argues better than BDLR, but I do like BDLR too just two different styles.

  184. truthseeker66 says:

    I like this guy, breath of fresh air after skelator. upbeat and interesting.

  185. fauxmccoy says:

    glad to see manitie address the fact that the ability to write code or algorithms is not necessary to end us of a computer program. i considered this a totally bogus argument on behalf of defense. my husband writes the code for miami PD’s software for case management/task assignment — can he use it? no. can miami PD do his job, again, no. ridiculous argument.

  186. Woow! says:

    Boom there you have it. Prosecution asking the right question of a user of a product versus a developer.

    West and MOM can go sit down somehwere.

  187. gbrbsb says:

    Go newbie, go go go!

  188. Two sides to a story says:

    Lordy, the prosecution sounds refreshing after West.

  189. ay2z says:

    Microscope– going for the analogy approach, by the state.

    • ay2z says:

      Skye analogy, audio feedback in court but still we are able to effectively communicate.

      Screaming one factor, along with list of factors, etc that must be considered. Study of other factors present, aware that automatically you can’t come to a conclusion?

      Expecting science to always agree is like expecting lawyers to always agree?

      Alteration of sample as per West, why he doesn’t agree this alters result. ‘Alter’ vs ‘change in some way’ the ability to use the information, not trickery, to use the sample they have by elevation of the pitch.

      Using that same method, that the defendant’s known sample was still able to be matched to another Z sample, therefore didn’t alter what he knew to be a known sample.

      Said (west called looping) often done, so not new or novel, except this software has a message that said ‘more please’.

      Correctly said GZ was GZ from known sample.

      West objects to form of question– overruled, Owen understood the Q. (but forgot! lol)

      Standards, as referenced… if not always to the letter present followed or otherwise available, prevent scientist from making analyst.

      West does speaking objection…. to interrupt again. Judge reminds him.

      Tom Owen is doing fine, without hearing the Q again.

      Shorter sample duration means dropping classification of conclusion down a grade. Nothing new or novel.

  190. SearchingMind says:

    Where the Heck is Mantei. Owen is being asked questions he cannot testify to. Mantei should be objecting.

  191. ay2z says:

    A Frye hearing could have been done during trial, couldn’t it? Trial interrupted, jury sent out?

  192. RobertSF says:

    The thing is, most science produces probable and not absolute results. What we have here is a bad cross-examiner and a bad witness.

  193. SoulSistaWoo says:

    Fogen is sooooo sleepy, he can hardly keep his eyes open… in addition to the fact that his little dust speck of a brain is not equipped for all of this talk that requires thinking. Then again… he may not be sleepy at all, his brain may be shutting down from overload.

    Somebody, get this beast a snickers bar quick.

  194. SearchingMind says:

    Owen said he raised the pitch of GZ’s normal speech, raised it to scream level and compared it to the 911-death shriek. Result: negative. Owen did not compare scream to normal speech as many claim. He compared GZ’s screams to GZ’s screams.

  195. amsterdam1234 says:

    This is a frye hearing. The question should be, does this program execute a scientifically accepted methodology. What are the requirements for this program to render reliable results?
    Those questions should go to the creator of the software.

    Or a better question would be, is this program accepted by the scientific community. And what is the concenssus within the scientific community about what the qualifications are for a person to be able to use the program and to interpret the results rendered by the program.

    This is not a frye hearing this is turning into a hearing about Owen’s qualifications.

  196. ay2z says:

    Is West actually wrapping up?

    • ay2z says:

      Standards deviated from question by West.

      Standards — says changed his opinion of what changed his observed opinion. Oh my, he wants this quantified, error probability. Says less than 1% error rate in spectrographic results. Biometric less than 1%, aural… less than 1% probability error rate according to FBI.

  197. SoulSistaWoo says:

    I love the way Tom Owen says the screams were not Zimmerman with that definite/matter of fact confident tone… Basically, it is not him, there is not confusion for Tom Owen on that point.

  198. boyd says:

    LMAO, They expect this guy to be an expert on this software. He is only a knowledgeable user. Why won’t West ask the manufacturer?

    Another thing is the Zimmerman trial now suggesting all voice analysis is inadmissible in all courts forever similar to the lie detector.

    As far as what this Tom Owen guy did, it’s not the way you should use raw data, but it was the only way to obtain some result.
    So far the FBI is right that there was not enough data.

    This is stupid because the shouts stop after the shot, and who expects to be screaming the second before the shot is fired? The victim of course.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      It is driving me crazy. I don’t understand why the State isn’t objecting.

    • gbrbsb says:

      He did ask Owen if the Russian makers he spoke with spoke English so maybe West will telephone them… или нет ? (Russian for “or not” – just looked it up)

  199. Two sides to a story says:

    Trying hard to spin Owen’s answers to defense narrative.

  200. Nef05 says:

    Okay, who juggled the audio feed line just when Owen was saying it wasn’t fogen screaming?

  201. tonydphotog says:

    Sounds like he’s asking questions prepared by the CTH.

  202. Leisa says:

    Let me finish…… Lmfao

  203. Nef05 says:

    UNORGANIZED! No wonder they can’tget through the documentation if they’re asking for duplicates of everything they already have.

  204. Tee says:

    West is having a hard time on cross. I believe that these questions are better suited for trail but I do understand what west is trying to do is discredit Owen and his science, Make him look like he only there for the money.

    • boyd says:

      When using raw data in any recognition type device one SHOULD not duplicate data. Not a voice analysis expert, but I’m guessing why the FBI said no shout or whatever is the same means you need a good sample of data.

      I say SHOULD but sometimes you have no choice.

  205. Jun says:

    Fogen is breathing really hard and fast if you look at him

  206. diary73 says:

    They will soon break for lunch. Sheesh!

  207. Ty Flair says:

    Hey guys not to sound mean,I hope the State do not put Mr Owen on the stand during the trail,they will make it seem he is trying to sell his product. And his method has never been done in any case that is a red flag there.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s my understanding that it is an established method . . .

      • gbrbsb says:

        Oh I do hope so because otherwise we are left with Nakasone and not enough material to analyse.

      • Ty Flair says:

        @Two sides to a story, I was talking about the looping part,Mr.Owen said that was his first time doing that method and he said he never heard of anyone else doing that method.

      • Jun says:

        I think he’s fine

        I feel my argument regarding looping will be strong enough to overcome that

        as well, what West was trying to cover is for a Daubert hearing

        The method he used, he stated is not new, but him looping a sample for the certain software was new for him, but that was the advice the software engineers gave him to work the software

        Since the software engineers understand that, it must not be new

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      @ ty flair
      That question should go to the creator of the software. They are the only ones who would be able to tell what the effect would be on the algoritme.

    • Ty Flair says:

      You guys are right about the looping part,West had me confuse until the State just explain it. Sorry! I’m a fish out of water right now trying to understand this.

  208. Two sides to a story says:


  209. Trained Observer says:

    Priceless — West asks a convoluted three segment question. Owen insists on answer each part separately. Then asks West to repeat the first part. West says he can’t remember the first part of his own inquiry.

  210. lurker says:

    OK–after 45 minutes of putting everyone to sleep, West has stumbled upon a point–that Owen “looped” the screams to come up with enough sound for the software to register. Now he’s beating it to death. I look for the prosecution to ask about 3 questions to re-establish that there is some sound basis for doing this.

    • Jun says:

      I do not think he has much of a point IMO

      If you loop your voice, the sample of the voice, will still be the same voice, so even if it is looped, what difference does it make?

      Let’s say you sample James Brown’s voice for 3 seconds and loop it for a hip hop beat, it’s still a sample of James Brown’s voice

      In music, with samples even as small as 3 seconds, they identify a sample

      I do not think West has anything but that’s my opinion

      • RobertSF says:

        Yes, but you know that’s James Brown’s voice. If you get a sample and need to determine if it’s James Brown’s voice, it makes sense that you need enough of a sample to do that.

      • Jun says:

        Okay, so if I have James Brown’s voice looped, does the ID of the voice change at all?

        You can loop it as little and as much as you want, and the sample is still James Brown’s voice

      • RobertSF says:

        @Jun, but consider that you don’t have James Brown’s voice looped. You have an unknown voice saying, “I feeeeeeel good!” It sounds like him but it could be someone else. And if an analysis requires 16 seconds of voice sample to tell for sure (or 20 words), just repeating that unknown voice isn’t good enough. It could give a false positive or a false negative.

      • Jun says:

        If I loop a sample of the voice, the sample of the voice, is still the same sample of the voice to be analyzed, and that fact does not change

        For example, if I loop a recording a sample of you saying “Bloodclot” and I loop it 20 or more times, it is still a sample of your voice saying “bloodclot” therefore it will still be analyzed as your voice

        You can argue semantics but the conclusion is, the sample used to compare is still the same voice saying what was said

    • Big Willie says:

      I believe recording engineers loop certain lyrics when making tracks. So I dont understand why Owen looping the 3 seconds is a problem.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I’m really hoping not, but it stands to reason that looping a few seconds of someone’s speech doesn’t give a better range of their vocal sounds but merely duplicates or repeats the same ones.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Would a proper analogy be

        If you only have a photo of the “20” on the year of today’s newspaper and double it, you cannot get the year 2013?

        • gbrbsb says:

          Yes, that would be a good analogy… but interestingly twosides just posted that it is the accepted procedure so crossing fingers.

  211. diary73 says:

    Interesting. West has done his homework. I wish Owen were a scientist.

    • whonoze says:

      If Owen gets tossed, it’s no great loss to the State. His analysis is weak; he has no scientific credentials…he’ll be vulnerable on cross at trial. I’m pretty sure the State has other audiologists lined up, Owen may be a sacrificial lamb.

      • RobertSF says:

        I agree. He’s not a very good witness. It took forever to get him to say what kind of money he made from the software. I think he would annoy jurors.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It does seem that doubling up the sample scream to create a longer sample IS new and novel.

  212. West go sit yo ass down!

  213. RobertSF says:

    Unfortunately, I think West has a point here. If you don’t have enough data (seconds of voice), you can’t obtain enough data by simply repeating the data that you have.

    • whonoze says:

      It seems the defense argument will be that looping the sample to get the software to perform an analysis is new and novel.

      • lurker says:

        I agree–he seems to have actually made a point. Now he is burying it with a lot of other repetitive questions. He doesn’t seem to know how to let his point stand. He did manage to connect the words “new and novel” to looping. He should have quit while he was ahead.

      • Jun says:

        Look at it this way

        If I record your voice, and I loop it 20 times, is it still your voice on the recording?

        Yes it is

        West is full of crap

      • gbrbsb says:

        Yes, unfortunately he found what could be the achilles heal and I reckon Nakasone could be used to challenge the looping technique.

      • ay2z says:

        Jun, that makes sense to me. It’s not as if you loop a section of a sentence and conclude what additional words are that don’t exist in the sample. Only what is in the sample is analyzed, nothing more or less.

      • lurker says:

        gbrsb–the problem is that they put Nakasone (their rebuttal witness) on first and now he has left town. They shouldn’t have used up so much time yesterday pursuing their sanctions arguments.

    • Jun says:

      I disagree. The voice does not change in the sample, so even if it is looped, it still can be used. For example if I sampled James Brown and looped it for a hip hop beat, it’s still a sample of James Brown.

    • Nef05 says:

      Hi RobertSF – good to see you here. I just posted on this but I’ll ask you.

      Is this any different from “replicating” a small sample of DNA to get a large enough sample to create a DNA profile?

      • RobertSF says:

        I think it’s different because, usually, when you want lots of data, you want a range of data. I think that’s true especially for statistical analysis. In DNA analysis, however, you want a large enough sample of the same material. And that’s possible because DNA replicates reliably.

      • Nef05 says:

        Ahh, okay. I can see the range thing. That makes sense. Although I’d think that looping would be considered reliable as well, since you’re essentially using the same sample without any changes/alterations to it.

    • YQ says:

      Nah, that’s more than enough data if you have a source of comparison.

  214. Trained Observer says:

    Ooops … looks like Fogen had a little itchy …

  215. Nef05 says:

    West is acting like “looping” to create a large enough sample is “new”. Even I can see how that works. Now West keeps interrupting, like he’s “discovered” something.

    • Nef05 says:

      They do the exact same thing in DNA when the “replicate” a small sample to geta large enough sample to submit for a profile. IIRC – the professor addressed the DNA thing before (or maybe I read it somewhere else). But, I do know hey replicate DNA for the same purpose Owen “looped” the primary sample.

      This is ridiculous.

  216. Two sides to a story says:

    I love the way Owen challenges West. He’s good.

    • tonya B says:

      ohhh but Nejame just said that the defense just pretty much dismantled him I don’t believe that I was at work watching bits and pieces and from what I heard and saw Mr Owen aint no ROOKIE at this he has much experience

  217. When is it enough?

  218. chi1224 says:

    Why isn’t the state objecting to this ridiculous line of questioning?!

  219. Wendie Dox says:

    this is unreal.

  220. Owen ain’t playing. He’s not into games. West better come correct.

    • tonya B says:

      sg2 but they are trying to make him out to be a joke this man has been doin this before west graduated school lmbo but they are tryin to disprove Mr Owen

  221. Big Willie says:

    Does West realize it takes him 16 secs to say “hello”. :-O

  222. fauxmccoy says:

    i think we could effectively create a sleep inducing module using west’s voice.

    • YQ says:

      Yes, he is very un-natural-like he is reading verbatim some sort of script. Almost robotic.

    • gbrbsb says:

      And OMG does he go on and he’s pretty unpleasant as he appears extremely arrogant… and he badgers… and he is quite insulting to the witness

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @gbrbsb — yup, i suspect he’ll go down as the proverbial ‘led zeppelin’ at trial … especially when discussing sound technology

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I did fall asleep during West’s cross or recross or whatever it was he did

  223. ay2z says:

    Sounds like Zimmerman’s voice or not. If not, the only other person there, was Trayvon.

    He says he raised the Z voice up 3, 4 and 6 semi-tones in pitch to compare Z’s voice to the screams.

    Doesn’t sound like something new in the audio world. The software seems to just make this comparison easier. He uses software that can compare hundreds of voices, whereas CIA etc, has software that can compare millions. Owen said he does not need to compare even hundreds.

    West does not compare normal speech to screams, Owen not aware of any studies of this.

    • ay2z says:

      Did you hear other words being spoken, that you included in your sample?

      Doubling up effect, West wants it tossed because of small sample.

  224. Malisha says:

    Just looking at Fogen and I have a “conclusion” to make about how he is acting with his gazing around and so forth. Because when I was very little I had to go to a hospital and sit (my mother had said “sit still”) in a chair and appear not to move or be interested in anything and still appear not to be bored or resentful. It was my misinterpretation of what was said to me that made me do this peculiar thing for an hour every Sunday. My brother had polio and visiting hours were ONLY on Sunday between 2-3 pm (the hospitals were antedeluvian and brutal!) and my mom had said, “You sit still out here while we go in; Ronnie is very sick so don’t make any noise or trouble.” Somehow I got “making noise or trouble” linked with my brother being very sick so I tried to sit like a statue. I was three and, naturally, immature. My parents were so worried about my brother that they didn’t think of trying to bring something for me to do or anything like that. And I thought that every person in the waiting room and every nurse who passed by and every person who could see me was thinking, “Her poor brother; if she makes any noise or trouble he will get sicker!” so I felt watched and scared. If I looked around, I tried to appear that I was just comfortably but non-consequentially casting my eyes about without any purpose. I tried to “not really BE there” while I constantly ran through my head what each person who saw me might think I was doing: was I planning some ‘noise or trouble’?

    That’s how Fogen looks to me. He knows he is watched, and that anything he does, NOW, can boomerang at him and hurt him. He appears to me like a creeped-out three-year-old trying to make his every move appear normal, natural, and non-trouble-arousing.

    This is cruel but I am enjoying it. I remember how awful it felt.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      God’s plan for Fogen. I’m sorry you suffered though.

      When I was three I’d put a blanket over my head because I thought if I couldn’t see people, they couldn’t see me!

    • lurker says:

      Excellent analogy. And I can remember similar kinds of childish misinterpretations at that age. Children’s hospitals have gotten considerably more family-friendly since that time. Imagine, only letting a family visit for a single hour during a week! And making a three-year-old sit in the hallway. Apparently we have come a ways since then.

    • Lynn says:

      My mother’s line was “Sit still and don’t move a muscle.” Could’ve been cause I was ADHD. Maybe momma fogen told him that. NAW! I don’t believe for a sec he is ADHD. I think all of the improper meds have caused his dystonic tics.

  225. truthseeker66 says:

    WTF, the other intern from before, the blond that liked wearing her favorite white suit. Why is she relegated to the back and AA intern up front.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The blonde in a suit is actually an attorney. I’m sure they like the black intern in front for PR appeal.

  226. Two sides to a story says:

    Notice how Fogen blinks and looks down when Owen says screams. He’s “shutting that statement out” according to a body language person who watched an early hearing. He doesn’t like the scream word. Not his.

  227. truthseeker66 says:

    why can’t fogen pretend he is interested in the testimony. RR said that his brother was taking in active part in his defense…

  228. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Next question to Owen should be

    “Would you say that you, just like O’mara and me, promoted yourself and work by taking on this Zimmerman case?”

  229. Wendie Dox says:

    by monday i would be ready to punch him in the face… hopefully nelson, who i identify with, will feel the same way.

  230. Wendie Dox says:

    well, i guess its a good thing that we. and the judge, are already getting totally sick of west…

  231. dianetrotter says:

    The AA plant now has a prominent seat at the MOM/West table. Someone told them to take advantage of this op.

  232. Wendie Dox says:

    oh my god.. this is beyond the pale…

    “this witness is testifying to profit the software company? thats the defense argument?

  233. disappointed says:

    How much did/is Z making off of his hour of “work” on February 26,2012? I think that is more relevant.

  234. chi1224 says:

    “When you went on TV to talk about this case”…. does West’s hypocrisy know no bounds??? DICK

  235. KittySP says:

    why isn’t state objecting to this line of irrelevant questioning.

    • ay2z says:

      It’s not so irrelevant if the ‘science’ is snake oil, but what does the rest of the scientific community say about the methodology. Frye is counting heads, isn’t it?

  236. chi1224 says:

    $5,000 over three years, lmao!

  237. Wendie Dox says:

    can anyone figure out what the point of this is?

  238. Trained Observer says:

    Why doesn’t JN cut this off? At this off-track pace, the actual Trayvon Martin murder trial could last beyond Thanksgiving.

  239. Nef05 says:

    Owen said “He” doesn’t sell it. Why is Wst saying “what YOU sell” and “if YOU sell”. He’s putting on the record that Owen, himself, is “selling” the software. At trial, he willprobably say “well, during the Fye Hearing you said YOU sell this software”.

  240. lurker says:

    If West operates in this same fashion at trial he is going to lose the jury. Apparently he wants to establish that Owen has some financial interest in making the software look good. He could get there in one or two questions. All this digging is just making his own point muddy.

    • ic2fools says:

      Oh my goodness, the jury will beg for relief. I think Sparky is trying to prove that Mr. Owen has a financial motive selling easy voice. Totally off topic that is irrelevant.

      Oh Bernie and Guy might be thinking that Sparky will tire himself and they won’t have to hear anymore from him rest of the day.

  241. truthseeker66 says:

    What is the relevance??

  242. What does this have to do with anything? Make it stop!

  243. Tzar says:

    Why is the state not objecting?

  244. disappointed says:

    West is jealous this man is getting paid!

  245. Trained Observer says:

    Wonder how much he charges for wedding vids/audio … am waiting for West to ask.

  246. Tzar says:

    West seems to be fishing and lost
    this line of questioning has nothing to do with the methodology

    I really wish the state would object

  247. I hope they take care of the feed back noise. It’s annoying.

  248. KittySP says:

    Lol! He said how is that relevant. I want to know what does his financial investment of the software have to do with how it’s used or the results it produces?

  249. Big Willie says:

    West has lost his freaking mind! I am screaming at the freaking computer.

  250. KittySP says:

    Oh, please tell me he wasn’t using an outdated version of the software….can one of the audio techs here advise if that mattered?

  251. chi1224 says:

    West is a dick. Hey West, do you have a “financial interest” in defending the murderer Zimmerman? Tell the court how much money you are charging and making……

  252. disappointed says:

    he is getting tired of being asked the same question.

  253. ay2z says:

    Next question will be about Owen’s royalties of financial interests in this so…..

  254. lurker says:

    Where did you buy the software, when did you buy the software?

  255. West is pretending to know the difference in software versions when he doesn’t even know what a Frye hearing is.

  256. Judy75201 says:

    West is going to focus on irrelevant minutiae in an attempt to get the trial continued, I do believe.

  257. ay2z says:

    oops…. he said he didn’t have beta, now he says first version was beta.

  258. lurker says:

    Is West going anywhere with this line of questioning (the version of the software), or just fishing?

    • I’ll take fishing for $500, Alex!

      • ic2fools says:

        SG2 I’ll take fishing for $500, Alex!

        Alex Trebek: Okay SG2 you chose Fishing for $500

        Your question is

        Captain Ahab O’Mara had a career that was destroyed and eaten by what is not a fish, it was a mammal. What was it the name of the mammal that destroyed and ate Captain Ahab O’Maras’ career?

        Jeopardy Theme:

        dee do dee do dee dee do dee dee, baum baum baum baum baum teee teee teee teee teee teee baum baum buam bump babump babump bump bump….

        SG2 is friviously writing…..

        Bing times’ up

        Alex Trebek; SG2 your answer please

        SG2: What is the Fogen Whale Alex.

        Alex Trebek: Yes SG2,

        By the way the Fogen Whale will be taken out of its’ natural habatat June 10, 2013 and put into permanent captivity…

  259. ay2z says:

    Fogen will head home and practice ‘pitch’ for his trial court debut to scream like the 911 call. He could have used some funds for voice training. 😉

  260. looolooo says:

    DId JN and NJ have a girls spa and hair day over the weekend? They’re both sporting new do’s.

    Hope they didn’t run into joonyah at the spa like the unfortunate Ben Jealous did.

  261. Put West in his place, Judge Nelson!

  262. SoulSistaWoo says:

    West is frustrating… and just plain ol dumb!

  263. chi1224 says:

    The judge is getting pissed at West!

  264. Uh oh! Judge Nelson educating West on a Frye hearing!

  265. Judy75201 says:

    LOL Judge Nelson having to explain to West what a Frye hearing is.

  266. Nef05 says:

    West is arguing with the judge again? Get HIM, JN!!!

  267. fauxmccoy says:

    judge nelson at the bench, thumbing through a well worn copy of ’50 shades of frye’

  268. Nef05 says:

    At least I can hear JN now.

  269. lurker says:

    Looks like the tech folks are working on the sound issue–maybe we’ll be able to hear the judge when they get back in session (after West gets finished reading and digesting the document).

  270. Trained Observer says:

    Is this an example of Citrix systems’ “Go to Meeting” at work? Hope it’s some other product displaying such inefficiencies.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i think they are using skype, based on the icons i saw on the computer doc at the podium. i think the sound problems are with the court’s sound system based on a number of issues experienced yesterday.

      at least the judge’s mic is up and working now.

  271. ay2z says:

    OMara hunt and pecks with two fingers as he types.

  272. fauxmccoy says:

    look carefully at both the defendant and jr. — they both have congenital dark circles under their eyes. as one who has trained in makeup artistry since my disability, this is something seen commonly in people with their ethnic heritage (and others). zim’s dark circles are no better or worse than since his alleged nose injury, neither are his brothers who had no alleged injury.

    • ay2z says:

      can’t get the link to open anything, will look for it, thanks.

    • ay2z says:

      Trayvon’s voice sounds maturing, but not a fully mature male, jmho. But whatever, suggests that Trayvon’s pitch could reach high points, vs what we have heard from Fogen.

      • thanks for that. I hadn’t heard it. poor baby, I swear what a waste of a promising life this jerkoff took it upon himself to snuff out!
        and now these POS lawyers are stealing his last words and attributing them to his murderer! unbelievable the way the legal system is allowing defendants to come to court with at the least * very creative * theories that don’t need to have an iota of corroborating evidence- besides the survivors own testimony – even if they don’t take the stand!

    • towerflower says:

      They have 2 samples of his voice that were taken off his cell phone.

    • GirlP says:

      Sounds like a teen to me,GZ cult at CTH swore Trayvon had a deep voice like a man turns out he sounds like most teens.

  273. I see Rene Stutzman. She just waiting to write something negative. Ugh!

  274. gbrbsb says:

    Pretty boy junior just got his moment of fame!

  275. chi1224 says:

    Yesterday Nakasone said this: “The screaming was not normal – it was pretty much uttered by someone who was facing probably imminent threat of death,” he said. “Very difficult to analyze.”
    Now- WHO would have that kind of fear, the one with the gun?? Come on… even Nakasone will help the prosecution.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Hopefully the jury thinks that way. Fogen supporters, of course, think he was in imminent danger.

    • ay2z says:

      Anyone notice how freaky the spike haired stares are from the defendant’s surity security man lately?

      (audio needs fixing again…. “Standby”)

    • looolooo says:

      @chi1224 The one with the gun who was still able to scream with such virosity whist being head banged and pointing and aiming a gun. Yeah right.

  276. Court back in session..

  277. Tzar says:

    back on the record

  278. Tee says:

    What’s killing me is that the media keeps saying That the defense just got thousands of documents never seen before dump on them. It makes me crazy, like all of this information was not at their fingertips. If we here have this information that the defense is talking about how he hell they don’t have it before this week.

    • bettykath says:

      Apparently they did get a big pile. It came up yesterday that they got a huge pile 2 days before.

  279. Nef05 says:

    This chick on HLN is irritating me, pushing this “discovery violaton” meme. She just said the defense is poring over “thousands of documents” and linked it to the “expert just emailed”, as if Owen just emailed them thousand of documents that the defense is right now, in the back room, desperately trying to read them right now.

    It irks the “f” out of me, when people represnt themselves as experts without even the most fundamentalgrasp of the facts.

    OT: What’s up with the trying to ban Trayvon Martin shirts from the courtroom. While I’ve seen signs in curtrooms requiring appropriate attire, they usually list things like halters, short-shorts, tube tops, mini skirts and things ike that. Since TM shirts don’t have any profanity, I don’t see why that should be a problem. Haven’t there beenother high profile trials where family members/friends/supporters wore victim t-shirts?

    • ay2z says:

      Anything, they say anything that spins their drama. 2 docs into thousands of pages, really how rediculous is that.

    • Tzar says:

      they need drama, that is what they are about
      these news networks are simply “reality tv” news networks
      These reporters are not reporters, they just play them on tv

      we are fucked

    • towerflower says:

      It’s more than just the attire, the ACLU is also getting involved. They want to ban any posters/signs that are attached to wooden poles or metal poles outside the courthouse.

    • bettykath says:

      I think t-shirts and such should be banned from the courtroom no matter which side they support. The courtroom should not look like a rally for either side.

  280. Two sides to a story says:

    21:49-58 in Trent’s hearing recording today – Owen’s playback of 911 screams – Fogen looks down – did so yesterday too. I’m pretty certain that’s a body English clue it’s Trayvon’s voice.

  281. ay2z says:

    2 minute recess by 9:37, we are about 45 minutes now?

  282. Trained Observer says:

    Is this a lunch break or just a brief recess? Defense must have a cartload of chips and dip in its prep room to keep Fogen from biting erasers of pencils at the desk.

  283. whonoze says:

    The prosecutor’s last name is the same as the first name of a celebrity who really could have used some voice analysis technology. 🙂

  284. Wendie Dox says:

    i took a shower and everyone’s gone.. what happened?

  285. whonoze says:

    New acronym:


    Waste EveryoneS Time.