Prosecution experts exclude the defendant as the source of the death shriek

Friday, June 7, 2013

Good evening:

The Frye hearing is developing much as I expected it would, although I am surprised by how far afield the testimony has wandered.

The scope of the hearing should be confined to determining whether the methodologies used by the experts are generally accepted by forensic audiologists. Dr. Nakasone, Tom Owen and Dr. Reich agreed that they are and that resolves the Frye inquiry.

The defense presented evidence questioning the accuracy of the results due to the very short (3-second recording) length of time in which the death shriek is not competing with other sounds. However, that argument and the rest of the defense arguments affect the weight that should be given to the results rather than the admissibility of the evidence.

Therefore, we basically watched a full dress rehearsal of the defense case challenging the accuracy of the opinions expressed by Tom Owen and Dr. Reich.

They agreed that the defendant did not utter the death shriek and indeed the circumstantial evidence independently confirms their opinions.

I confess that I had a difficult time hearing what the experts were saying because the audio was fuzzy and cutting in and out.

West’s monotone and stubborn nitpicking instead of focusing on the general acceptance issue, which is the purpose of the Frye hearing was quite annoying.

I think the defense committed a potentially serious tactical error by asking for a Frye hearing this close to trial because they have little or no chance to win and the hearing creates an opportunity for the State to remind everyone that their experts have excluded the defendant as the source of the death shriek.

1,029 Responses to Prosecution experts exclude the defendant as the source of the death shriek

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    He pays for the gym then stops and starts paying again, I wonder if that lines up with the 18,000 he got from that law suit?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I’m pretty sure he took the classes and did the work at the gym, after all he did put in an application and he would certainly want this on his resume.

  2. ay2z says:

    Mr. Maintai used Dr. Doddington to point out that disagreement between experts is a good thing, advances the science. And Doddington agreed that there is never 100% certainty, there is always probability.

    Dr.. Doddington emphasized that the best method for identifying a speaker, was using a listener, and the best listener was one familiar with the voice of the speaker.

    If screams can’t be evaluated, this doesn’st seem to discount the value of a mother who has raised her child through his lifetime. There may be listener bias, but that could work both ways, as much denial of belief, even more than wanting the speaker to be her child in pain and fear, especially in a situation Trayvon was in, to scream for his life as he knew he was going to die.

  3. ay2z says:

    accidentally edited out sentence before the comment—> (Might work for the defendant if the judge agrees to a continuation of trial until next year , or stays the whole thing until technologies are up to defense standards)

    This comment was about Dr. Doddington’s speculation that in a year or so, he’d do some legitimate experiments using past HASR trials, and that we should ‘stay tuned’ for that.


  4. ay2z says:

    Dr. George Doddington a professional electrical engineer specializing in audio evaluations of the ‘technologies’, not evaluations of forensic samples or evaluations of the specific brand name ‘tools’.

    (Might work for the defendant if the judge agrees to a continuation of trial until next year , or stays the whole thing until technologies are up to defense standards)

    Doddington says under cross:

    – all the biometric systems work very well

    – computers have advanced tremendously in the last 30 years

    – HASR trials so far show that the biometric systems are superior

    – HASR (Human Assisted Speech Recognition) needs more work and he’s hoping to plan some legitimate experiments for speaker recognition, if he can get the funding, and that could happen in a year or so– “stay tuned.”

    – that a free software download from the internet, was one of the two methodologies he used to evaluate this case (hey isn’t that an automatic biometric system?)

    – one of the methodologies, admittedly outside of the field of electrical engineering of this audio specialist who never uses forensic samples, was to ‘listen’ to the NEN call, out of curiosity he said.

    (Mr. Maintain pointed out that Doddington had criticised Reichs for being influenced by audio suggestibility while he himself listened to the 911 call and drew conclusions that were themselves, subject to ‘bias’, something that he had never done before in his career, and that’s not part of what he does (never uses forensic samples, out of his field)

    – one highlight of the cross, was Dr. Doddington’s support for the idea that it is the listener, especially the listener familiar with a speaker’s voice, who is best able to identify a speaker. An expert opinion, as Mantai pointed out, was held by Doddington 30 years ago when he last testified in court and still holds today as the best way to identify a speaker.

    – another point that was nicely dealt with, was Dr. Doddington’s comments on direct, that claimed ‘speaker bias’ was a factor in the state’s witness, Dr. Reich’s speech recognition work.

    Mr. Mantai showed that Doddington himself was subject to speaker bias when he listened to the 911 call drew conclusions from direct subjective listening from a forensic sample. Doddington emphasized that his work never makes use of forensic samples, he is not do forensic speaker or speech evaluations, out of his fiield of expertise.

  5. Justice for Trayvon

  6. aussie says:

    To be fair, he gave his reasons as self-defence, weight loss and training for law enforcement career. He was 255 lbs on the day he signed up.

    Juniors’ phone records: the numbers are all blacked out. But there was no call on Feb 26 from about 1 pm until 7.55, followed by another at 7.59 and one at 8 pm ALL OUTGOING. The 8 pm one went on for 44 minutes. At 9.30 there was an INCOMING (“routed”, ie forwarded) which also went on for about 40 minutes, followed by 3 very very short outgoing calls and one apparently wrong number/engaged.

    Having so many forwarded calls looks like Junior has a land line phone, too. Which they don’t seem to have gotten the records for. He may have received a call on that, setting off the flurry of outgoings So the interest is not in who rang him, but who he rang. .

    • willisnewton says:

      Listed in the inventory with the discovery is records of Shellie’s phone, but then they are not actually included. Only Robert Jr’s are there. There is a note saying Shellie’s records were “previously provided” but we’ve not seen them disclosed.

      What gives?

      • elcymoo says:

        The only thing I can think of, Willis, is that the prosecution released Shellie’s phone records to the defense team earlier, but they haven’t been cleared for release by the court. Her records and GZ’s ought to make for some enlightening trial discussions.

  7. LeaNder says:

    I have not checked GZ legal lately, neither the state’s release site. But looking for a different video of the defense’s experts, I ended up on Diwatman’s blog.

    Sorry for not remembering who pointed out Dr. Phil’s invitation and embarrassment of the guy that makes money with fight videos. That was perfect intuition really. Watch it to the end, and you’ll find out why. I don’t understand exactly what happened. And it seems too that there was no real reason to interfere. They did not have to protect the guy. He wasn’t ever in real danger, as Trayvon was.

    Now here is The bike video

    Good connections? Or is it linked by now in the latest discovery releases on 18th circuit or gzlegal?

    • groans says:

      I have not checked GZ legal lately, neither the state’s release site.

      LeaNder, what is the “state’s release site” that you’re referring to, please? I’ve also heard O’Mara say that the state posts evidence on some website. I’ve never seen such a website, but sure would like to! Thanks.

      • LeaNder says:

        Groans: Eighteen Juridical Circuit, that’s what I referred to however badly.

        They are always slightly later. I have never seen video’s there but gzlegal has started to put some online. I noticed not long ago. There is a different database but it does not link to the files. And I only have one link. 😉

      • groans says:

        Thanks again, LeaNder!

    • elcymoo says:

      Thanks for posting the link to the bike video, LeaNder. It confirmed what I always suspected; there really wasn’t any bloody fistfight going on. In fact, the two men were mostly pushing, shoving and wrestling over control of the bike. Trayvon’s been criticized for not calling 911, but I don’t think all that many people would have – GZ excepted, of course.

      • LeaNder says:


        one of the guys seems to get into his car after. The one that asks them if they intend to make money from the video. I wouldn’t have understood without the help by someone here, what exactly this is about.

        This video may in fact describe a situation I always dreamed of ages ago. In other words I would have loved to be able to get hold of the thieves of my diverse stolen bicycles. By now I have given up, and simply buy myself a new and slightly better one so I do not miss the one gone. 😉 it works. But initially it always makes you very, very furious. Especially if you urgently need it and there are time constraints.

        But maybe I am wrong. Gonna watch it again. Mainly to hear Trayvon’s voice.

        I have to admit it reminds me of DeeDee’s statement to BDLR’s question, how was Trayvon: funny.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @elcymoo –

        Like you, this is my first view of this video.

        I was astounded. Have we become a nation of couch potato pantywaists that THIS could be considered “violence?”

        The kids likely filmed it because here were two grown men, pushing, shoving and grappling over a bicycle – with no skill whatsoever.

        The boys probably thought it was a hoot!

        And to think how O’Mara described this!

        The Zimmerman legal defense team are disgusssssting liars! No doubt, pantywaists also.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        While I don’t think it’s particularly “nice” that Trayvon videoed this scene, I have two sons myself and they were both immature at the same age and certainly would have done the same thing and found this “fight” funny too. It isn’t the sort of altercation that you’d notify 911 about, either, especially in a major metropolitan area where police are busy with far more serious things.

        • Shari says:

          My husband is a law abiding taxpaying American citizen. He isn’t a criminal and we mind our own business. He watches clips of fights on websites like Break and YouTube and he usually finds them VERY funny. I don’t know what’s so funny but I never thought it was proof of criminality. Everyone has a smartphone now, they are dirt cheap for the most part. When something happens the first thing people do is begin recording instead of intervening.

          I never thought that the info on Trayvon’s phone was relevant so I never looked into it. Are you saying that people were outraged that he FILMED a dispute over a bike? Trayvon was an American kid, doing an American/Western thing. No big deal to me.

          It disturbs me how much Zidiots question the behavior and judgement of a juvenile but refuse to hold the ADULT Fogen accountable for his criminal behavior, past and present.

      • Malisha says:

        Naw. GZ’da shot dem phuckin’ punks. Woulda had to, you know. Otherwise he’da been in diapers.

  8. Jun says:

    I have always wondered why the Fogen gang is still pushing the black panther danger theory and Fogen wears the vest

    I have stated it before but anyways

    If someone really wanted to off him, they’d honestly just shoot Fogen in the head or the throat or his legs and it’s done

    Just being real

    The vest aint gonna stop bullets to those areas

    and lastly, the State Of Florida already has his balls in a vice grip, so there is really no need for anyone to do anything to him

    Just saying I think his story is a lie regarding that because of the aforementioned reasons as that it could easily be done and has not been done and there is no motive to do so

    • racerrodig says:

      Fogen epitomizes the word “Loser” why would anyone even consider going to prison or the death penalty over his pathetic lying ass.

      And both of the New Black Panthers have jobs and families and all they wanted was an arrest, there ya go….Mission Accomplished.

  9. Malisha says:

    Since Fogen has denied that Hal Uhrig and Craig Sonner represented him, they should subpoena THEIR phone records too. See if Wolfinger and Lee called them.

    • Jun says:

      That’s actually not a bad idea… you should contact them to do that as I would not doubt there is something fishy with those two guys…

  10. Malisha says:

    Him and his sister want to know who will play them in the movie?

    HIM will be played by Tracy Morgan and him’s sister will be played by Jorge Garcia. Or vice versa.

    • Jun says:

      Steve Buscemi for Robbie The Racist

      He’s good at playing creeps and I am sure he is up for the challenge of playing a creep that happens to be gay (Simon Tam played a gay gangster in a Hong Kong movie)

      Rosie O Donnell should do Gracie because Rosie has zero personality and pizzazz and is a jackass, which is what my guess is what Gracie is like

      • racerrodig says:

        I doubt any movie will be made, and for the record, only self serving rat bastards talk like he does. Besides, he’s a sideshow….anyone can walk over to a camera, grab a mic. and lie like hell.

      • Jun says:

        He’s like the dudes from Jerry Springer to be honest

        They go on and say the most hateful disrespectful crap and also lie just to rile up the audience and then they try to get the audience back with “apologies” or in Robbie’s case, claiming he is coming out as gay

        Personally, I think he’s a creep

    • Trained Observer says:

      @Malisha — LOL HIM will be played …

      (I’d drag the guy who mastered the art of smarm as Eddie Haskell on Leave It Beaver out of mothballs.)

      Actually, I agree with Racer. Doubt any movie or even a TV special will be made of this totally avoidable tragedy.

      • racerrodig says:

        It could make “World’s Most Stupid Criminals” I’m betting if Scott Peterson, O. J. Simpson, Casey Anthony and many others didn’t have movies made, who the hell is Fogen and why would he rate.

        They made this into a circus…..maybe the SPD coverup investigation will make news, but it won’t be a movie.

        Manson was behind movie stars and celebrities being murdered. Serpico was an honest NYC cop who was shot to silence him.

        Fogen is a moronic wacko and nothing more. Trayvon was an unknown minor who just wanted to get home.

        So scene 1 in such a movie will portray what….7+ years of college classes…..his 315th out of 317 HS standing ??

        Manson used The Beatles as a reason….Fogen used God as an alibi.

        Fogen playing “Defender of the Hood” is a laugh. Manson using “Helter Skelter” was a serious issue.

        Both are racists……and Fogen is a joke. His family, his life and SheLie…….all a joke.

        Note to racist bastards : The world will come down on you, better wise up.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          There’s a distinct possibility that they’ll get several training films out of this, “what not to do as a Neighborhood Watch person and why!” , and for the legal profession a myriad of examples of bad lawyering and the consequences. I’m sure Omar’s performance will shake every years students to their roots. Since, until they view Omar in action, they would not believe work this bad was possible. Omar is a legendary failure!

          Justice for Trayvon
          Hoodies up!!!
          |||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||

      • Trained Observer says:

        Plus, to be politically in correct yet candid, people don’t want to watch loser porkers on screen.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        A documentary or police / civilian training film is about all they’ll get out of this. The only character needed is Foggen and he’ll be played by “someone from the audience”.

  11. SearchingMind says:

    Click to access states_17_discovery_redacted_exhibits_redacted.pdf

    Above is complete State’s 17 Discovery. It contains, among others,

    a. Information that GZ listed “SELF DEFENSE” as one of his main reason for seeking the services of the ‘Most Equipped Fight Gym’ In The GZ started his Self Defense training in 2010;

    b. The letter of GZ’s rejection by the Police,

    c. partially redacted telephone records of robbert zimmerman Junior on the 26th of February 2012, etc.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @SearchingMind –

      Thanks ever so much for the dox, Searcher.

      Looks like Junior was plenty busy on the phone after 8:00 p.m. on February 26 last year.

      I don’t see the incoming call that brought him the news, but I expect Gracie got in touch with him somehow. Likely a landline involved.

    • elcymoo says:

      The document says that a copy of Shellie Zimmerman’s phone records for 2/26/12 had been ‘previously provided’. Does that mean it was included in a previous discovery, or just provided to the defense team? I don’t recall seeing it.

      Also, no mention of GZ’s phone records for that date…

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hmmm… I don’t see the NEN call listed, besides this seems to be sprint, didn’t gz have a T-mobile phone on a prepaid scheme?

      I don’t see any change listed so Trayvon appears to have had exact change.

      From the maps of the area, if those 3 guys were intending to meet Trayvon at the 711, they obviously had to follow him there from home. Rene Stutzman said that Ransberg (the black one) lived in that cul-de-sac, I guess it’s the one we see outside the back gate. So far I haven’t been able to track down where the white Ransberg(burg) lived. We know that Burgess lived at 2500 RVC.

      Oh and gz was 255 lbs when he signed up for the fight training in 2010. He paid for and completed the course(s).

      • Jun says:

        it must not be a very good gym because martial arts tend to instill some values and honor and bravery

        There is nothing of value, honor, or bravery in Fogen’s actions

      • willisnewton says:

        You may be mistaken…. these are ROBERT Z’s phone records, not George’s.

        We have yet to see GZ’s phone records.

        As for the “three stooges” I’ve not followed that at all; it seems entirely superfluos to me. What is known and what has been reported and where? Please explain what you know as though explaining to someone who has no previous knowledge…. I’ve been ignoring all this as it rolled out.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          A good place to start is here

          Up near the top you’ll notice links into the matter. But, briefly:

          Way back on, when the story was that gz had met Trayvon coming in near Taaffe’s place. I looked at the lay of the land and the elements that would have been operating and realized it would have been very unlikely that gz would have seen Trayvon, even if he had come that way. Of course later on we learned that Trayvon had been in the mail kiosk by 6:54pm so that put the final nail in the coffin of those claims.

          Now I’ve looked at the elements of Trayvon’s walk to 711 and back, and I’ve noted that there too are a wide variety of possibilities and variations, that make it almost impossible to predict Trayvon’s return to RATL, less which of the many routes he will take to get there. Then too there’s the element of the rain. Had it not started raining hard when it did, obviously Trayvon might very well not have stopped at the mail kiosk. If he didn’t, and he was only 2 minutes from home, and about one minute from the nearest cut through, gz’s efforts, even supported by spotters, would have failed.

          Then his only means of attack would have been to invade Trayvon’s house, probably by claiming he had seen Trayvon break in there. But we’d now be talking about how gz learned where Travyon lived, because the time and motion studies would clearly show that gz could not have seen where Trayvon went, despite his claims.

          Note that when Trayvon leaves 711, instead of walking immediately east, he waits there for 30 seconds and that’s when the car carrying the 3 stooges appears. Now they come into the store with Trayvon waiting outside and they’re covering their faces from the stores cameras. Why? They’re not pulling a hold up, so why would they want to not be identified? Could it be that they knew of some plan involving Trayvon? Could they have been working in consort with someone to track him? Could they have known to expect that whatever might occur later on, might be serious enough that these cctv’s would be checked?

          One thing is certain. Trayvon was held up at the store for 5 minutes. The distance from his house when he ran to the mail kiosk was less than 3 minutes at the outside. Meaning that if he had not been held at 711 by the 3 stooges, he’d have made it safely home before gz could even leave his house.

          The point being that with a trip this variable, and gz not actually leaving his house to go shopping, he’s on a mission that has only one target, and it’s a target that he has not yet seen. Unless you want to believe that multiple coincidences can line up and facilitate your plans, then you’ve got to realize that there was something more needed to make things work as they did.

      • Malisha says:

        Wait: On 2/26/2012 Burgess was not in any 7-11; he was in jail and has not been out since.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Of course, Burgess was arrested on 2/7/2012, but he was with three other people, two blacks and a white male, so with Burgess gone that leaves one white male and two blacks in the group. That’s exactly what we see at the 711, the two remaining black guys and the one white guy. So that’s what I was referring to. We know that the four of them were together when the stolen property was in their possession and all 4, it is said were taken to the police station where three of them were released.

          I refer back to the 2/7/2012 arrest, because I have only the count to connect the guys at 711 with the group that Burgess was with. We don’t have either names or photos of anyone but Burgess and of course Ransberg(burg). But it seems such an amazing coincidence that 2 blacks and 1 white are at 711, and this is exactly the remainder of the group arrested and released on 2/7/2012.

          Hope that clears up why I have to keep referring back to the original group.

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, I don’t think that can be blamed on the gym. They don’t do psych testing on their applicants. Some percentage of the students will become better for their training there and some percentage will become worse.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @Lonnie Starr
        255 lbs… whoopie, so he can’t try the sympathy card and blame his present weight gain on his “unfair” arrest and trial which I was half expecting from MOM & Co.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Regarding your 2/10/12 comment:

        One of those three teens at 7-11 wore clothing similar to Trayvon’s –that is, a light grey sweatshirt hoodie + tan pants, and he was also a black teen.

        Could this be the “someone else” that Shellie referred to when she said, “He shot someone else?”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Sorry I have seen nothing at all that would point to such a possibility.

          I know that you’re probably thinking that the whole thing about those 3 at the store is pulled from thin air, but it isn’t. It’s circumstantial and gossamer in it’s linkages, but made worthwhile to keep in mind, because, at the least, we have good reason to believe that there was more to that night than meets the eye.

          I’ve taken a few tidbits of evidence that would otherwise seem inconsequential and fashioned them into a narrative supportive of my speculation. The hope is that there might be even more, seemingly inconsequential evidence that might come along or be discovered, that could tie in and/or make this theory more credible. But would otherwise be lost, simply because there is nothing to relate it to.

          As it is, it would not take much more to elevate this theory to the level of being a working element of the case.

  12. Jun says:


    Reich is damn good

    I been listening to the 911 scream tape and I know I hear Fogen’s creepy whispery pedo voice and he does indeed say “There shall be…”

    I was listening closely on my smartphone

    Damn, he’s good to catch that… I could not make out any words at first but I do hear Fogen saying something in his creepy voice

    Fogen says it just before killing Trayvon… listen closely, Fogen does indeed say “There shall be…”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That the defense is trying to hard to promote these “imaginary” utterances shows me that they are indeed there and that many, many others can hear them. I can hear these but am uncertain what I’m hearing. I’m sure if I made hundreds of attempts I could probably deciper them, as I do transcription work at times and it often takes several passes on phone interviews to decipher all the spoken words and phrases.

    • Jun I can’t even believe he said anything like that b.c it’s so creepy! and to tell you the truth it’s kinda f’ed up, but because it sounds SOOO ridiculous it makes ppl doubt Reich’s whole testimony!

      I havn’t heard ir yet, and I believe you & Reich but damn ppl are snarking about these things because it does sound crazy!! I want to try and listen better but the tape is so scary and heartbreaking and to think that scumbag was the last thing Trayvon was forced to see and hear it just kills me!

      I hope Reich gets to play a cleaned up audio for the jury, I hope it comes out clear enough that the world can hear it too.

      what do you think that pig was doing jun when he was saying that kinda shit?? in the beginning, before the dispatcher picked up the phone gz was saying all that other shit, I what is his deal???? I mean did you notice any talk like that on his jail house tapes? any weird preachy god talk on those??

      • Malisha says:

        I think Fogen was so caught up in his fantasy that he was involuntarily saying “These shall be” as a kind of incantation. “These shall be MY WAY” or “These shall be MINE” or “These shall be the way I SAY” or something like that. I knew a woman whose husband used to say “Go go go go go go go” just like that, seven in a row, while he had sex. He seemed unaware of the utterances. Then after about ten years of marriage her daughter (six years old) asked her what it meant when Daddy “gogogo’d” and she didn’t understand her daughter’s question so she asked for more detail. The child said that daddy would “push me in my private part and say go go go go go go go” but the child said she didn’t like it because she didn’t know what to do to “gogogo” and it made Daddy mad. The mom brought the kid into social services who guessed at the utterance. The husband, when denying he had molested the child, also denied that he EVER said “Go go go go go go go” when having sex.

        I think Fogen was “transported” when he was killing his victim; I am sure he couldn’t feel his jacket slide up when he allegedly “shimmied” and I think he wouldn’t realize he made other utterances either. I don’t think they were under his voluntary control. That’s why I think the murder was probably pretty close to Murder-2 rather than actual “full-mind-intent” Murder-1.

        • my god malisha, that is absolutely terrifying, both of the stories!

          Even though it’s hard to wrap my mind around the uttering of such odd words, i can’t deny the possibility. it’s just hard for a normal thinker to consider what a sick/deranged killer is thinking. we are here trying to make sense of nonsense. And that’s all i can think that makes sense to me.

          I know for a fact that religious child molesters will use religion as a crutch. and because i believe his cousin, i believe he could think himself as righteous! i mean look what he said on hannity!

          i’m not religious but i know too well how religion can over ride all common sense and intellect. even the brightest of ppl can lose their whole damn mind!

          so you think this freak went kinda outta body when he was in the throws of his kill? that is just nauseating! and i hope to HIS GOD that he gets exactly what he gave back to himself! i hope his last moments of life are just as horrifying as the ones he gave Trayvon!

          one thing tho, i have a feeling he’s accosted someone like this before.
          he was so confident he wasn’t doing anything wrong. he wasn’t scared of ppl coming outside to stop him, in fact he had the nerve to tell them what to do! as if he’s the god damn sheriff! That behavior just goes back to what you’re thinking about his *trance-like* stage! he’s in another world! his own made up sick world!

          we know he’s a violent little motherfucker, but only w.smaller/weaker ppl, we only see the one example of his drunk ass jumping on a cop -knowing that he wouldn’t actually get into a real brawl in that kind of situation.
          i’ve been in a bar when a raid happened. ( it was Prince’s club down in south beach, and it was HUGE! at least 100 cops in all black ski masks and geared up)
          i can imagine this was just a little college bar and maybe just a few cops prolly came just to keep the bar on it’s toes.. so i know gz was just putting on a show. If he had done that in a miami club he’d have been slammed on the ground and beaten by 10 cops in ski masks! and he wouldn’t have walked out on his own that’s for sure!

          Well, here’s to tomorrow! Let’s hope they nail his ass!

      • Jun says:

        I mean it in all seriousness and my bet is Reich will prove it at trial by playing the tape but listen after Jeremy gets terribly frightened

        You hear Fogen’s creepy whisper voice and he does indeed say “There shall be…” and then you hear Trayvon say “stop” and then Fogen kills the kid and the screams abruptly stop

        Reich is old school and he’s damn good because I did not hear that until recently and he caught that right away

      • Jun says:

        I think Fogen’s a fucking creep

        I think Trayvon was begging for his life and pleading for mercy then Fogen says “There shall be…. My way” and then he kills the kid

    • Cercando Luce says:

      So the end of the sentence must have been obscured by the loud gun report.

  13. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    With trial proceedings beginning tomorrow, this will be my last post.

    Professor, I thank you for all of your great articles and for providing this site for Trayvon advocates.

    And to all of you wonderful, goodhearted advocates… have done excellent research and analysis of the evidence! I congratulate you!!

    • gbrbsb says:

      So sad yahtcs. Why no more posts? Is the blog closing or if personal reasons you don’t have to say, but I will miss your comments for sure.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks, gbrbsb.

        The reason I am not going to post any more is that I (very personally) do not believe in posting comments during a trial. Just my little quirk.

        In any case, my forte (mainly on the NBC) blog was organizing the released evidence and posting the evidence to counter “misstatements” by the other side.

        I will miss all of you!

        • gbrbsb says:

          Oh, I understand. But I hope maybe when it’s over, and whatever the result, as much as I so want the prosecution to be successful I personally don’t think they have anything near a slam dunk rather a huge burden to prove BARD, you might come back and say hello to those still here.

          So I’ll just say bye for now, and I will miss you too!

        • Xena says:

          @yahtc. I am going to miss you. Thanks for your participation on blackbutterfly7 also.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks to all of you for you nice comments.

        I have decided to post to you Trayvon’s video of the two men scuffling over the bike. No one was hurt. And, Trayvon filming it
        is no different than what news photographers do every day.

        FORTUNATELY, Trayvon laughed and commented as he filmed.

        This is fortunate because now I have absolutely NO doubt that it is Trayvon crying out for help the night of February 26, 2012.

        Just listen, and you decide:

        • PiranhaMom says:


          As I listened to the kids laughing over how stupid those “grown ups” were to be scuffling over a bike – and doing so very ineptly – I could hear the teen voices.

          For me also, YAHTC, it confirmed that the tragic death shriek was Trayvon’s last plea.

          It hurts to know we lost such a wonderful young person, with such potential.

          It hurts.

          God only knows how his parents and brother survive …

        • gbrbsb says:

          Thanks for this, I have posted it over at whonoze’s blog too.

          The voice is brilliant, sure the jury will also make the link.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        gbrbsb says

        So sad yahtcs. Why no more posts? Is the blog closing or if personal reasons you don’t have to say, but I will miss your comments for sure.

        X2 — i would love to hear your comments as the trial progresses and will miss them if they are gone.

        i know that fred used these last two hearings as a ‘trial run’ so to speak of the live blogging he expects to continue throughout the trial. again, i would miss your commentary. this makes me sad 😦

    • ZCBest says:

      Thanks for your thoughtful comments (laughs intended). Be blessed!

    • willisnewton says:

      I admire your fortitude. I’m more like the Elvis type, prone to shooting my television (if I had one, and a gun, which I do not) and ranting to whomever will listen when I see injustice and stupidity flourishing.

      Thanks for participating, and hope to see u on the flipside.

    • Well you can still post the evidence here! you don’t have to be a stranger.
      I think I remember you doing something like that in the beginning/when you first started posting here

      idk why, but it seems sad to me to hear you say bye for now. but I respect your practice. personally I got so Effed up by the casey Anthony verdict I couldn’t speak for 3 days. I don’t think that’s a healthy way for people like me, w/o being personally involved in that case, to react. so I plan on being less emotional in this one, if I can.. maybe I can focus on the racial/social advocacy things when i’m not watching the trial, so my mind is occupied on more than the outcome of this…

      but it’s comforting to have found all you ppl that are passionate about the murder of this child, it helps to be in your company.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      You will be missed! Hope you’ll check in from time to time.

      I almost withdrew but I’m too addicted and have to see this conviction to the last loney slam of that jailhouse door.

    • Nef05 says:

      I’m sorry to read that, as well. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, and will miss your perspective and insight. All the best!!!

    • Jun says:

      Who is this guy with the white hair?

      • Malisha says:

        I think he’s “blue tie” the electrical engineer the defense tried to use to undo the prosecution experts’ reliability. NOT. or KNOT, as the case may be.

      • Jun says:


        They used an electrical engineer who looks like he’s a member of the KKK


      • Two sides to a story says:

        He actually ended up helping the prosecution more than the defense. In a way, he sort of turned on them, or at least he got along with Mantei better than OM.

    • ay2z says:

      His response might better have been, he has not done forensic evaluations– ever, not his field, doesn’t listen to audio, not what he does.

      Nice job.

      This witness does not do forensic sample evaluations, he has never done, (to quote him) “ever” in his career done forensic sample evaluations. He does not ever, until he got curious with the exception this case, listen to audio.

      (though OS may disagree in their report of yesterday, they are confused)

  14. Two sides to a story says:

    Astrology and Numerology for Monday, June 10, 2013 Zimmerman

    • Nef05 says:

      I took a look at his transiting chart. Fogen is in the midst of a Saturn return (conjunct within a 1degree 15′ orb ), in Scorpio, which falls in his natal 12th house (Karmic journeys, secret sorrows and self undoings). Small sample of Saturn in Scorp:

      Saturn in Scorpio
      Souls born with Saturn in Scorpio encounter many emotional lessons that bring pain and suffering until they learn to master and control (Saturn) their strong desire nature (Scorpio). This pain that you cause yourself will be the purifier of your emotional temperament. If you persist in rigid and unyielding/crystallized attitudes (Saturn) it could result in crystallizations in the body such as arthritis, gallstones, and arteriosclerosis. Resourceful, shrewd, secretive and occasionally withdrawn, depending on Saturn’s hard aspects (if any) you may also be vindictive, destructive, ruthless, and jealous.,

      I note his medical report lists a “pre-existing” order for glucosamine chondroitin tb. Isn’t that for joint flexibility difficulties, like those that arise from arthritis?

      In any case, I know I would NOT want to be going on trial for murder, in the midst of a Saturn return, in my natal 12th house. Well, I wouldn’t want to do it at anytime – but for sure not at that time. I could almost feel sorry for him… almost.

      • LLMPapa says:

        Thank You for your insight.

        Although I know little about Astrology and the stars, I know George Michael Zimmerman upset the natural order of our universe by taking the life of an innocent child.

        He’s got some bad mojo headed his way

      • Malisha says:

        LLMPapa: FABULOUS as usual!

        But: “The fault lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.”

      • ay2z says:

        While listening to Bad Moon, a thought about glucosamine chondroitin use as hoping to prevent joint damage by using what is essentially classed as a food. Doesn’t mean he had joint damage from heavy wear or arthritis yet.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ay2z – GZ was known to have a bad back. Hence his rage when someone cut the lock off of his special chair at work. Yeah, he kept it locked to his desk.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Saturn returns are never easy for anyone and Fogen has the Saturn return from hell. Self-created – what can I say?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Very cool, LLMPapa!

      • Nef05 says:

        He absolutely upset the natural order of the universe by murdering Trayvon and all the bad mojo he gets is deserved. Thank you for including my post in one of your amazing videos. I am deeply honored.

        Hoodies Up! J4TM

      • Nef05 says:

        Exactly! And with a 1degree (+/-) conjunction the energy is at peak, and will be there for a while. With Saturn (the cranky old granfather who teaches us our most difficult life lessons) transiting his 12 house of karma, sorrows and secrets – Things do not look “auspicious” for him.

        Incidentally, it also affects Scorps and those with Scorp rising, to a lesser degree. I’m a Scorp, and it was just as this transit began that my mother became ill and had to go back into the hospital and then physical therapy and chemo/rad treatments. As her primary caregiver, I am dealing with hospitals, insurance, lawyers, rehabilitation facilities, chemo/rad treatments, maintaining her home and obligations, and keeping her spirits and strength up.

        For sure, SHE has the harder battle to be fought, no doubt. Nevertheless, I am learning invaluable life lessons in having to deal with these issues that I may never have, and I might need them for myself or another family member one day. So, the lessons are never easy, but they can be valuable if you choose to learn from them.

        Fogen never learned a hard lesson or how to be accountable in his whole miserable life. If he had, Trayvon wouldn’t be dead. It appears as though the lessons he ignored will not be ignored any longer. They are demanding to be learned – and he has no one to blame but himself.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I wish I knew as much about astrology as you do, Nef05. I’ve skimmed the surface of it for many years and understand some of the basics, but find some of it mind-boggling as much as enlightening.

        Sounds like we have some things in common – my mother has also been dealing with cancer since 2010 – she’s finally in remission but still dealing with the aftereffects of chemo and the ongoing trials of aging. Her sheer determination to survive kept her going as much as anything else, I suspect. Most of us would probably feel we’d lived long enough in our early 80s to let go, but she’s been a real trooper throughout the ordeal.

  15. Two sides to a story says:

    God’s Plan vs God Sent

  16. ay2z says:

    How? Part 1

    • ay2z says:

      Hope that’s good news, this time.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Woow, in answer to question #11 of your above comment, I have had a feeling all along that, someone actually did see the entire incident and, this has not been released by the state.

      If you guys remember, there was someone who contacted LE about the events of that night but, they were holding their statement for my guess would be, for someone more honest than the SPD.

  17. willisnewton says:

    from the article:

    “In a USA Today-Gallup poll, 51 percent of African Americans felt that Zimmerman was guilty, while 20 percent of whites felt otherwise. ”

    Parse that grammar, please. Does this meant that 80% of whites feel “otherwise,” aka he’s guilty? I think the writer messed up here.

    Probably the poll found that ONLY 20% of whites were certain of guilt pre-trial. While this is a big gap indeed, I’m not sure it reflects ONLY racism. Part of it is that it’s reflecting the upper-class trust in the court system and the racial minority’s distrust of the system.

    Is America rasist? Heck, yes. Did 2 million people of ALL colors, creeds and religions sign petitions demanding justice in this case? Yes. I’m encouraged by that.

    The article asks “will things get uglier before they get better?” I’m saying they are getting better already but the struggle continues, and each injustice must be met with the same resolve and defeated by tolerance, organization, a push for equal justice and love.

    • dianetrotter says:

      I know some white people who initially thought Zimmerman was justified; however, as they heard more information, they moved away from there original positions. Just from comments I read on other sites, I believe that many people are only listening to what supports their own positions. One commenter on said Zimmerman was a home owner and Trayvon had no right to be there. Many are willfully ignorant because they don’t want to process anything that won’t support how they feel.

      • Xena says:


        One commenter on said Zimmerman was a home owner and Trayvon had no right to be there. Many are willfully ignorant because they don’t want to process anything that won’t support how they feel.

        Willful liars is a better description. I read a comment where the person wrote that GZ said 3 times on the NEN call that Trayvon was circling his car. The person doesn’t realize how that convicts GZ. Anyone in a vehicle who has a person circle it even once, would be a fool to get out and follow the person after the person runs.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Diane — see my post below. Am confident that attitude change will occur once my friends soak up the facts.(They own income properties in several states, and when I laid out the news that not only was Fogen stiffing his landlord on back-owed rent but actually called the cops on her when she stopped by trying to collect ….. well, well, well, that got their attention. They were more inclined to listen to me on aspects of the actual murder, premeditated in my opinion.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I just posted on some other site where they were talking about the homeless video and had it all wrong. I noted that the last post to that site was after O’Mara tallked about the video, then they all stopped posting. The blog lead article is pro Trayvon, but the index displayed quite a few proZ articles. So, it appears that after Omar did the video thing his support actually got shuttered by it. He really made, those who pounced on it, look like rabid racist fools. A second beating they’ve taken after the school records came up empty.

          The lies may be bringing in money, but they’re quickly knocked down and they’re pushing gz more firmly towards the jail.

          Justice for Trayvon
          Hoodies up!!!
          |||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||

    • tonydphotog says:

      Unfortunately, the poll is probably accurate. Not because they’re racist, but because they’re not following the case. The only things they hear are from the media outlets, and we know they haven’t really been reporting the facts accurately.

      • Trained Observer says:


        Can’t begin to tell you how right you are. Was at dinner party last night with a couple from out of state who I’ve known for decades. (I’m often their autumn houseguest in the mountains.)

        They are well educated, reasonably well informed people, but apparently what little they know about this particular case stems from FOX, CNN and the two Sentinels.

        Fogen/Martin came up (by another party guest not via me) and the wife shocked my sandals off by mentioning Trayvon got what he deserved and there ought to be more guys like Fogen willing to take a stand for their communities. WHAT?

        I went ballistic, finally calmed down, and later had a quiet talk with the husband, a one-time Marine who was at Iwo Jima. He’s still quite with it, and always willing to listen.

        After laying out some facts, he admitted that I had changed his perspective. He simply hadn’t gotten a clear picture of the evidence on what had really happened. He and his wife had both believed Trayvon had been up to no good and had attacked Fogen … doing the head-bashing, etc.
        and had been influenced by those phony photos of Trayvon floating around.

        For what it’s worth, one of the other party guests mentioned that he always gets nervous when approached by anybody in a hoodie. My retort to him was that I get edgy when stuck at meetings near anybody wearing a pocket protector.

        Meanwhile,now that this is really on their radar, my friends have agreed to tune into the trial, and we plan to discuss again when we’ve all had less wine.

        What an uphill battle.

        • Shari says:

          I’m sure this kind of thing is going on with many of us. People depend on the news media to objectively report news and they are not doing that. People have work/lives to attend to. Some of them don’t know about this website. Others only read the tittle of an article. So when they read a heading that says, “Dede lied, state case is falling a part…” They turn to supporting the killer. This criminal trial is NOT the first one followed by the national media BUT It’s probably the first in my adult life where the VICTIM was put on trial. The VICTIM’S life is NEVER rifled through. Then there is the investment in Fogens tale. Why would anyone believe him when he was the GREATEST MOTIVE TO LIE???

          People don’t know the facts. One commenter said Fogen was doing his legitimate job as a security guard. Also they say Trayvon had no right to be there.

          This case is an eye opener for sure. People who you know and love, you wonder how they can believe the most horrible things.

  18. Trayvon Martin Case: ‘Trial of the Century’?

    As the trial starts, experts talk about its potential effect on how we see race and justice in America.

    (The Root) — The Trayvon Martin case doesn’t involve a white-Bronco car chase, an NFL legend and a pretty blonde — just a black, unarmed teenage boy in a hoodie and a neighborhood-watch captain with a gun named George Zimmerman. But the second-degree-murder case against Zimmerman — who says he killed Trayvon in a gated community in Sanford, Fla., last February out of self-defense — has the potential to be just as meaningful as the O.J. Simpson trial when it comes to race and the justice system.

    Charles Ogletree, director and founder of the Charles Hamilton Houston Institute for Race & Justice at Harvard Law School, told The Root that the “distinctive qualities” of the case — which centers around the issues of racial profiling, gun violence and self-defense laws — make it particularly relevant. “I will even go so far as to say that this will be the trial of the century that will say a lot about the court system of the 21st century,” he said.

    Since Trayvon was shot to death on Feb. 26, 2012, advocates have rallied around his family and his cause — with support ranging from hoodie campaigns to gestures of solidarity on the House floor. For weeks, there was buzz about the nature of race in America and how violence against blacks — specifically young black males — must stop.

    But not everyone feels the same way. Polls suggest just how much race has played a factor. In a USA Today-Gallup poll, 51 percent of African Americans felt that Zimmerman was guilty, while 20 percent of whites felt otherwise. It’s a case that has exposed the deep racial chasm that still exists in America. Will things get uglier before they get better?

    Zimmerman’s family and legal team have pulled out all the stops to try to paint Trayvon as a malicious thug. From records of the teen’s text messages to pictures of Trayvon blowing smoke, the defense has tried to provide as much evidence as possible that Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self-defense.

    According to the Los Angeles Times, Benjamin Crump — the attorney for the Martin family — said during a recent Miami prayer service that Zimmerman’s defense has made “a desperate attempt to try to play on people’s prejudices” by releasing cellphone pictures and texts from the teen. “It’s bad enough they had to lose their child,” he said. “It’s tragic [the Zimmerman defense] had to assassinate his character,” Crump said. At the same prayer service, Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, acknowledged that the family would “have to sit through a lot of negativity.”

  19. acemayo says:

    Why leave out the 911 call in many case in the past
    a person was found not guilty when they look at
    what was left out.

  20. ay2z says:

    “Racism is never about the facts, and Zimmerman’s media campaign, is not about the facts either.”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Spot on.

    • Nef05 says:


    • pat deadder says:

      ay2z that video is stunning.So the only reason fogen’s mother married rzsr was because he is white.There is something fishy about that family.Why are they lacking in money.They both have good pensions from their jobs plus his service disability pension and their government pensions.I think they have been separated for a long time or something I just can’t put my finger on it.I guess the long and the short of it is who cares except they raised a person with a depraved mind..

      • Trained Observer says:

        Pat — Why are they lacking in money? The aren’t.
        But they are greedy liars wanting to feed at the trough.

  21. Woow! says:

    I forgot

    15. It would be really interesting if he called someone at SPD and Osterman.

    • willisnewton says:

      I’m guessing he called Mark Osterman as seen in the bloody head photo. He had reason both to call and to deny or omit/ obscure making the call.

      Perhaps Osterman moved the truck for him and only later said Shellie was involved. We don’t know. We do know both persons aren’t telling the whole truth, and we do know the truck was moved but not why, or what was in it. (open liquor container or illegal prescription meds is my first guess. Other people i the truck is a theory I tend to doubt highly)

      Perhaps Osterman has “flipped” and will testify against George. Time will tell. Certainly he could be at risk of being charged in secret indictment for either perjury or accessory after the fact or evidence-tampering. In any case he has to know his friend is likely to lose at trial and that his own job as Air Marshall is on the line. Even rats know when to leave a sinking ship, and he’s had some sort of a break with his relationship with George.

      • pat deadder says:

        Wasn’t fogen’s name on his parent’s house in Florida at one time and they had it removed.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Pat, am not sure if his name was on their property ownership records. If so, it MAY have had to do with Florida’s homestead tax exemption.

        If a home is homesteaded, there’s a cap on taxation, limited to going up no more than 3 percent per year. If the parents were still official residents of Virginia, their property would not have been eligible — unless Fogen was added as the official Florida only “homeowner.”

        Again, I don’t know if Gladass and Pops tried to pull off this type of subterfuge with help for Fogen or not. But we do know what kind of people they are.

  22. Woow! says:

    I wonder

    1. what was found on Fogens Phone and will we ever know
    2. when did Osterman arrive at the scene
    3. who notified Wolfinger and when did he arrive
    4. where was Taaffe and was he involved that night
    5. Is there evidence the neighbors complained to the HOA about Fogen
    6. Does SPD have a long record of NEN and 911 calls by Fogen regarding suspicious black men
    8. Do you find it odd that Shelly was always the witness who saw the suspicious black person on Fogen’s calls to NEN
    9. If Fogen had bee turned down (not sure by SPD or in Virginia) for the police academy, why were the cops letting him ride along with them on patrol.
    10. It is evident Fogen is not up to par with the law so how could he criticize SPD and why would they try and protect him knowing he is a loose canon
    11. I wonder of someone has come forward that actually saw what transpired
    12. I saw a motion filed by the prosecution to prevent the defense from releasing information about the Martin’s and their family. Was MOM really that low down and dirty to do that.
    12. I wonder if prosecution know that MOM is letting folks on a blog run his defense because after reading about the tree house on here, I ventured over there today and one of the questions MOM asked, was discussed by those folks before he asked the questions.
    13. It is going to be really interesting when testimony begins since MOM was unsuccessful at having his witnesses testify incognito….. those boogers will have to do their dirt in the open..OOOWEEEE I do believe a monkey wrench just flew all up on their game plan.
    14. Finally, I wonder how much that fool Joe Oliver was paid to quit his job to stump for his best friend and who was paying him? Also, Taaffe has been real quiet lately where did he go?

    • Jun says:

      It’s all gonna come out at trial and we will all hear it

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Excellent post, Woow.

    • willisnewton says:


      1. what was found on Fogens Phone and will we ever know

      It’s likely we will know if he had communication right before the time he got into his car. It’s also likely he may have deleted the text but that it was recovered, or at least a record of who texted him was.

      I’m as curious about a possible tip off as I am about who he was calling in the “bloody head” photo.

      2. when did Osterman arrive at the scene

      We don’t know but it seems to have been before he claims he was there, since the gates were guarded by cops soon after the killing. He’s admitted he spoke with George in his interview to the FDLE but shies away from this in his “book.” There’s a lot we may never know about here, but he could have coached GZ about the obvious self-defense talking points – things like the supposed verbal death threat are tailor-made bullshit, and of course the “i was in fear for my life when i shot.”

      3. who notified Wolfinger and when did he arrive

      We may never know this. Wolfinger may or may not have been there, and he may or may not have been corrupt, incompetent or racially motivated. To my knowledge there were never a credible outside investigation into his activities. He quietly announced he would not run for re-election and that may have been the “deal” that was struck, we probably won’t ever know. To me this is as big or bigger of an outrage as the murder itself, since Wolfinger was an elected official and is responsible to the people, yet eluded scrutiny, guilty or innocent. At least GZ will face trial. Wolfinger skated away. The Martin family wrote to the DoJ asking for a federal investigation into the actions of his office and of the SPD but never got a direct response. What they seemed to have gotten was political pressure that moved the florida governor to appoint Corey as special prosecutor, and for Wolfinger to step aside citing “the appearance of a conflict of interest” whatever that means, which is very unclear and remains so.

      It’s possible Wolfinger just wanted a case he could easily win and was waiting for the SPD investigation to bear better fruit. They never got to hear from Dee Dee/W8 since the Martin family was losing confidence in the locals and took her info to the Feds and ABC news instead.

      So was Wolfinger incompetent/ corrupt/ racially biased? We just don’t know. The fact that others in his same position are charging Murder 2 seems to say he was either corrupt, incompetent of racially biased but again in the absence of a credible outside investigation we will never know. He refused to speak with the pulitzer prize winning reporter from the New York Times which suggests to me that he has things to hide.

      4. where was Taaffe and was he involved that night

      I tend to think not, but he may have been a tip-off person who was assured that his text was deleted by GZ. Time will probably tell on ol’ Frank. It’s his “according to George” statement that I am curious about.

      9. If Fogen had been turned down (not sure by SPD or in Virginia) for the police academy, why were the cops letting him ride along with them on patrol.

      Because he was a wannabe cop and signed up for the program. They had no knowledge of his not getting a job in VA.

      10. It is evident Fogen is not up to par with the law so how could he criticize SPD and why would they try and protect him knowing he is a loose canon

      Anyone can open their mouth, it’s a free country. (unless you are black, unarmed and wearing a hoodie in the vicinity of GZ.)

      11. I wonder of someone has come forward that actually saw what transpired

      There is a rumor of a child witness that is still floating around. Some suspect this is a kid or two that was at W2’s house, and that W2 is shielding the child. If so, I understand. Sadly however this may be the reason that W2’s “two person foot chase” story got muddled later. I am hoping at trial this will get cleared up since she seems to be a possible star witness for the prosecution depending on what her position is at present and how well she can face cross-examination by the defense. This could be a high point of the trial or it could be nothing at all. Time will tell.

      12. I saw a motion filed by the prosecution to prevent the defense from releasing information about the Martin’s and their family. Was MOM really that low down and dirty to do that.

      dunno about this.

      12. I wonder if prosecution know that MOM is letting folks on a blog run his defense because after reading about the tree house on here, I ventured over there today and one of the questions MOM asked, was discussed by those folks before he asked the questions.

      yes, they know and have mentioned by name the conservative treehouse blog in open court. More curious to me is if the prosecution has followed the theories of BBC list blog as represented by Treeslaw/ whonoze’s video that outlines the clubhouse video’s timing being off and shows, when adjusted to align with the arrival of emergency vehicles that GZ trolled the mail kiosk and likely returned to face the mail kiosk from the first bend in TTL. This agrees with the map he drew (and quickly crossed out) and shows the likelihood of the car-to-pedestrian chase that I maintain is the starting point for GZ’s false narrative.

      13. It is going to be really interesting when testimony begins since MOM was unsuccessful at having his witnesses testify incognito….. those boogers will have to do their dirt in the open..OOOWEEEE I do believe a monkey wrench just flew all up on their game plan.

      I don’t put much stock in this. This was a move done for show, and it may have been for family members of GZ who are clearly ashamed of his actions and how it’s going to reflect on them. They barely tolerated him before all this. I suspect they simply don’t want their faces shown because they know their son is a liar and is going down.

      14. Finally, I wonder how much that fool Joe Oliver was paid to quit his job to stump for his best friend and who was paying him?

      Who cares? Wasn’t he a wanna be tv personality? I suspect he was reaching for a career boost. He failed, and I’m glad we don’t have to see him anymore.

      Also, Taaffe has been real quiet lately where did he go?

      He’s off drinking or drying out. Either way he’s wise to STFU.

      thanks for posing this list. On to trial!

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t believe Joe Oliver quit his job to stump for Fogen; I don’t believe he was paid, either. He LOST his job and was looking for a way to get another one by appearing to be a big important foobah. It didn’t pan out for him because he’s such an ass.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Francis attended the hearings.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Yeppie. they know Fogen is a LIAR and, what’s even more cheering to me is the FACT that they now know HE’S A MURDERER AS WELL! you’ve got a point about them not wanting their faces shown in public, they are ashamed of him as well as what he did to an unarmed innocent kid.

        They can play stupid all they want to, they are indeed ashamed of Fogen and, have been for years. what other reason was he sent away from his home state of Virginia? my guess is that, he committed a crime of some sort and, as usual papi Z got him out of it. after he was bailed out by his crooked lying father, he was sent packing to the state of Florida, living in the house they purchased for their retirement. IMO he did not leave Virginia because he wanted to, he was made to do so by his parents.

      • Jun says:

        I wont say it in full but I cant think of any other word

        Joe Oliver is a House ……. you can fill in the blank

        Considering he is a House (bleep), he would have had to have a ulterior motive to do so, because going House (bleep) is one of the worst titles to have and own

        He’s probably Robbie The Racist’s boyfriend and Robbie paid him to do all that crap

        • racerrodig says:

          “He’s probably Robbie The Racist’s boyfriend and Robbie paid him to do all that crap”

          With this group, anything is possible. Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver did state he and Fogen worked together and that’s how they met. He also stated how long ago and all that and he was lying through his teeth as Fogen did not work where he stated at that time.

          Friend of Robbie the Racist….very possible.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I thought Oliver was a 12-step sponsor for Fogen, or something of that sort.

  23. ay2z says:

    Video by Papa + Video by xy11xy = illuminate why George Zimmerman called police at all, the night of the 26th?

    Review Papa’s “New Script Writer Needed’ and hear GZ alert police to Frank Taaffe’s place earlier in Feb 2013, then borrow 7 comments from this earlier NEN call and attribute them to his NEN call from the night of Feb 26th.

    Why would GZ assume Trayvon was suspicious and then meld information from his earlier Taafee NEN call? No one knew where GZ saw Trayvon for the first time for sure, it may be one more ‘borrowed’ bullet point from the prior NEN call on another young black male. The location may have triggered the series of assumptions of suspicion and primed GZ to believe that the same young man now noticed him, his car, who this watchman was that called police the time prior, and that GZ had to follow through and not let this ‘fucking coon’ or ‘fucking punk’ get away. GZ explained the events of the night of the 26th to police, repeatedly springboarding from the earlier sighting at Taafee’s place.

    (Further, Trayvon’s killer might have been worried that he’d been made by someone he assumed could be the same young black male from his earlier Taaffe ‘suspect’ , making the need to catch the bad guy, even more critical for personal ‘safety’ reasons, not waiting for police because “these assholes always get away”. If Shellie had been with GZ that night and knew of this suspect as possibly the same as before, that would surely escalate Fogen’s concern to act and not wait for police this time.)

    Was the link or connection in this neighborhood watch captain’s mind, between the two NEN calls, enough to blur the line between the two young black males as he did blur the distinction and meld the communications of the two calls?

    And watch xy11xy’s video posted early this year, in which the same question is asked, ‘why were police called at all?”

    Does this video add to the understanding of the role of profiling Trayvon that night, and the state of mind GZ of linking his friend Taaffe’s house, with this new young black in his late teens, even though the information on the profile was different, and the communications in the calls, were different?

    • ay2z says:

      LLMPapa’s video New Script Writer Needed (blue screen with question mark) is linked upthread.

      xy11xy’s video “George Zimmerman’s Profile” here:

      • ay2z says:

        Notice the idea of visiting the emotion of ‘anger’ on Trayvon coming from the mouth of GZ on the NEN call of the 26th used in xy’s video. But GZ was careful to say he had never seen Trayvon before, yet blended the other ‘facts’ of the two NEN call scenarios.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        What an important video that you have posted, ay2z…….all of gz’s suspicions were unfounded.

        Despite all of gz’s suspicions, Trayvon was simply an innocent teenage returning home from the store.

        Once gz called the police dispatcher, it was in the hands of the police to discover that Trayvon was a guest in the community and to discover that gz’s suspicions were unfounded.

        Gz interfered with the police investigation that he had asked NEN for the minute he exited his vehicle.

        It was Trayvon’s ***RIGHT*** as an American Citizen to have the services of the police to check and discover that he okay and had a ***RIGHT*** to be walking where he was walking.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Your comments before posting xy11xy’s video are outstanding, ay2z!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Many good points and heartbreaking!

    • willisnewton says:

      To me it’s long been obvious that GZ conflated aspects of the earlier window-peeper incident with his false narrative. I believe he did so because he was tipped off to the presence of Trayvon and responded with his gun and vehicle and cell phone, only spotting TM for the first time while the teen was at the mail kiosk.

      From the mail kiosk it seems also clear that GZ was parked at the first corner of TTL facing the mail kiosk. This is corroborated by the clubhouse videos, and the map GZ drew for Singleton, as well as what Dee Dee told Crump about how TM was followed by a moving car just before he ran “from the back,” meaning into the back of the houses – the dog walk area. Dee Dee is clear about what she is describing but doesn’t know the significance of it, and later when BDLR questions her he doesn’t ask her specifically about this activity so she doesn’t describe it the same way. But I’m 100% sure it happened this way. There is no other explanation for how to match up the position of the two people with the events described on the NEN call. Both persons were SOMEWHERE when the following exchange took place: “He’s by the clubhouse now?” GZ: “yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”

      GZ’s lies, obfuscations and omissions as well as his contradictions in his statements to SPD all stem from the idea that he is acting to obscure the car-to-pedestrial chase that happened briefly down Twin Trees Lane. When he first started telling his false narrative, he omitted the actions and tried to skip ahead to “the good part” where he was the victim of an unprovoked attack. In point of fact, he HAD provoked the teen – he provoked him into running off the roadway in fear, and he may have provoked other actions when he closed a gap between them on foot. But keep in mind GZ tried to simplify the story to leave out the moment he drove his car behind TM, and he tried to leave out the fact that he was searching for the teen with his car that evening (IMO) and he KNEW what actions were exculpatory and which actions were not.

      But since George knows he can’t start his tale the way it really happened, he has to invent a different beginning. Luckily for him (he thinks) he has his memory of the 2/2 incident of the window peeper to copy details from in order to sound plausible.

      But unbeknownst to him, he’s created a major contradiction when he tells SIngleton (who keeps asking him to back up and tell earlier parts of the story in better detail, as he keeps trying to get to “the good part”) that he pulled over in the clubhouse parking lot after driving AHEAD of the teen who was supposedly by Taaffe’s. George admits he moved his car while speaking to the NEN call taker. But by placing the “first pass” of the teen here at the clubhouse parking lot, he’s started the clock ticking on the NEN call recording. Keep in mind it’s very very possible GZ felt the NEN call was NOT recorded. Otherwise he wouldn’t have taken such huge liberties with his description of what was on it. Note that not ONCE did GZ volunteer to the SPD investigators the concept that TM ran. He only speaks of it when prompted, and were it NOT for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known that TM ran at all.

      Why lie about being in the clubhouse parking lot and the teen passing him here? What’s George hiding? He’s hiding a lot. He’s hiding the way he trolled the mail kiosk, as seen in the video. He’s hiding the (likely) tip off, and he’s hiding the car-to-pedestrian chase that happened after the teen walked brazenly past his vehicle, taking the most direct route to his home for the week.

      These are the actions he felt he MUST lie about, and what formed the impetus for using the Taffe-prowler incident as a convenient basis for his false narrative.

      I’m going to guess that GZ’s phone records will be part of his undoing. If he received a call or text shortly before he got in his car we’re going to learn about this at trial. Perhaps it was a deleted text that gave him the tip-off, and perhaps the authorities have recovered this.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Zimmerman tips us off to the only “reality” in his tale (which, actually, was a “pre-reality, or “the prequel,” in film biz).

        in the car with Serino and the other detectives and he’s “re-creating” the 2/26event on-site.

        The ONLYtime he speaks with assurance and conviction is when they arrive in front of Taaffe’s house. George then launches into his good deed earlier that month of calling the cops in on this asserted robbery. Very proud he correctly called he cops but too no actin imself; said with great self-satisfaction “let them handle it” like a proper Neighborhood Watchguy — without any sense of irony that he proved he can handle this correctly but chose the vigilante route just a few weeks later – resulting in a death!

        He upped the ante. Just calling in a report did not satisfy Zimmerman’s personal need for drama – and the starring role..

        You get no hero medal for just calling in a tip.

  24. colin black says:

    Nellie Nell says:

    June 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Robert Jr Tweet: Robert Zimmerman Jr. ‏@rzimmerrmanjr 27 May

    Last night me & sister actually brainstormed who would play us in “the movie” today and 2moro ill tweet about how hard this is on my family!

    Yeah, they think this is all a freaking game!!!

    Pee Wee Hermans a shoo in for the part of junior .
    An junior could play the part os sisterzimmerman or zimmermiss .

    As we know foggagge claimed he thought he had missed..

    Anyway junior in drag for the part of the Sister

    An pee Wee Herman

    Or if not available

    Remember the MOVIE CABERT..?



    An the song also would fit perfect for the end of the trial
    Aufwedersane mine her


    • These people don’t expect anything to happen. I really wonder what’s going on. I suspect they know about a way out that is coming for them because there has gotta be one brain between them that should know that this doesn’t look very good.

      • Nef05 says:

        I’m not too sure Joonyah really cares one way or the other. He’s snaky-cunning enough to put himself first, and in doing so realize that there might be a TV movie, even if it comes from a J4TM supporter. His character probably wouldn’t have a large role. In fact, if it was me – I’d limit it to clips of shows he’s already done. Any actual actor, in his role wouldn’t do anything more than sit in the courtroom, no lines. I wouldn’t put it past his snaky self to try to find an agent to see if HE could play the role.

        I mean, it’s all about him, right? He disgusts me almost as much as his brother and his brother’s lawyer (and the grifting parents, and drunken, racist, illegal activity committing friends). The whole freakin’ crew is just foul.

    • Rachael says:

      I love her videos and this one is really good!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I love this lady. Has she done anything new?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I have alway thought this was a clear and superbly done video.
      She has talent!

    • This lady and LLMPAPA needs to make a baby. Pronto!!! Not sure why that makes sense but it makes sense to me.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      How many innocent children have to die
      By the hand of those who take the law into their own hands
      Before all children are safe?
      The answer, my friend, is coming through this trial.

      Yes, and how many gz lies do people have to hear
      Before they see that he has done wrong?
      The answer, my friend is coming in this trial.
      The answer is coming from this trial.

      How many black children have to be on guard
      Against racist stereotyping or profiling
      Before the day when they will be respected and safe?
      The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.
      The answer is blowing in the wind.

  25. Malisha says:


    “I remembered it all wrong because my head was in a daze because of the beating I had received. What really happened was that ‘the guy’ saw me in my car innocently trying to go to Target. He stopped my car by waving me down, told me he was a homeless kid and somebody had beaten him up, and asked me for help. Naturally since I always help homeless pBa-lack people who have been brutalized, I said, ‘sure, Homie, what can I do for you?’ He led me to a spot 45 feet south of the T and then mumbled, ‘you got a problem now’ and told me that if I didn’t submit to a beating he would let all the kids I mentored know that I was a penniless Afro-Peruvian derelict. This would be very bad for those kids because they look up to me so much, and there’s so much rampant prejudice against Afro-Peruvians these days. So I submitted. But when I couldn’t stand it any more and I said to him to stop and get off me, he refused, and then I realized I was about to be killed. So I shimmied and pulled out my gun and shot him. Only once. And he cursed at me. And I said to a neighbor, ‘help me with this guy,’ and he said, ‘I’m gonna call 911,’ and to be honest with you, I was so stunned and shocked that I forgot all about that until just yesterday and I told my lawyer, ‘I’m a decent American; I’m obligated to get on the stand and swear my oath and tell the whole truth,’ so he said he would let me testify. And I love my unborn children.”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      HAhahaha. That’s about the size of it. And God’s plan to you all and good night!

    • crazy1946 says:

      That would be a better defense than anything I have seen from MOM so far!

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Crazy –
        @Malisha –

        Fogen’s defense testimony will be:

        “I am not George Michael Zimmerman.”

      • ic2fools says:

        Mark O’mara – BUSTED!!!! George Zimmerman Lawyer- Revealed – Lied

        bout he knew apaypal 37k transfer, flat out lied to Lester,blamed Fogen

    • Girlp says:

      Yep sounds like a story the derelict Afro-Peruvian would say. I’m sure DaddyZ has come up with a new version and GZ won’t be able to follow that storyline either. See everyone Monday.

  26. Girlp says:

    From what I’ve read it looks like defense lawyers are saying O’Mara is going to have to put the child killer on the stand, I agree I don’t see how they can avoid it and I’m sure he want’s to get on the stand. I could be wrong but I don’t think he can help but re-invent his story.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • ay2z says:

      NeJame has a video up on his law youtube, that claims the defendant will take the stand because he gave up the SYG hearing before trial.

      Will fogen try another fake apology or what will his spin be this time? The jury won’t like him being manipulative this time, with the cameras and the victim’s family watching.

      Guaranteed to be interesting, but can’t see how MOM can risk this, unless he can somehow hamstring the defense with In Limine motions, limiting Bernie’s questions to what the defendant’s name is, and what day of the week it is.

      • ay2z says:

        hamstring the state, not ‘defense’ DUH.

      • boyd says:

        Screw NaJame he’s playing games to make money. He knows he’s guilty, he did not take the case..

        I pray he takes the stand, BDLR would love to grill him for 2 weeks.

        Imagine Zimmerman explaining his written statement why he shot a kid, jumped out of the car, over a NEN call as he likes to let everyone know.

      • Malisha says:

        Cannot risk Fogen on the stand.

        Looks to me like he’s so medicated even his name and the day of the week could come out wrong.

        I can just see it.

        “State your name please.”

        FOG — uh — George Michael Ohfuck, I mean — O’marphuckt — um, actually, I have a bad memory, I have ADD.

        “What day of the week is it?”

        Coonday. Uh, I mean Punkday. Uh — Monkday. Fatterday.

      • Jun says:

        It would be nice to have BDLR grill Fogen considering West is a lawyer and Bernie made West out bad

        Can you imagine?

        West: We would like to submit Fogen to the stand but he does not want to be cross examined

        JN: Denied

        West: What does denied mean?

        (argues with Nelson for 5 minutes until Nelson says “for the 50th time”)

        West: Mr. Fogen, so you are a decent white, I mean Afro Peruvian gentleman who never lies, right?

        Fogen: Yeah (breathes in) Yeah (breathes in) these assholes look pu-ba-lack. Hot dogs.

    • Jun says:

      My guess is Fogen will take the stand and tell more lies that contradict himself even more

      • ay2z says:

        This may be why the defense is attacking Bernie with their spin about evidence. They are afraid of Bernie, deathly afraid. (they should be afraid of Mantai, he’s wonderful to watch, love his style and talents)

  27. crazy1946 says:

    All this whole hearing was another attempt by MOM and West to delay the start of the trial. The longer they can stall the more money they hope to trick the gun/racist nutz to pay out to support the cause! I just talked to a bail bond friend that I fish with, and he told me that if he was holding the paper on the bond, he would have objected to this modification of the terms of the bond with out the lawyer of record signing a guarantee of delivery of his client upon demand of either he or the court system. Fogen is a flight risk, it is not that far to an area where he can escape from this country via boat or private plane. With the attention this case has brought all over the world, it would not be impossible for Fogen to ask for and possibly receive political asylum in one of the South American Nations that are not especially fond of our government…

    • Woow! says:

      All Fogen would have to do is ask for the money and the bigot would give it to him to flee; probably help me with transportation.

      • Woow! says:

        sorry typing while tired…. …as the bigots for money who would give it to him to flee.

      • Xena says:


        All Fogen would have to do is ask for the money and the bigot would give it to him to flee;

        Yes! GZ has a demonstrative sense of entitlement. Even with money earmarked to pay for services, he steals it. With money requested for his legal defense, he paid his debts.

        No matter the result of trial, ShelLIE will still be homeless, unemployed, and awaiting trial on perjury. No doubt GZ has considered this and will use it as an excuse to get the heck out of Dodge ASAP.

  28. ay2z says:

    The flashlight dropped from fogen’s hand, he says, when Trayvon punched him at the sidewalk ‘T’ while on his way back to his vehicle.

    The flashlight was found some 45 feet south, and on the ground near Trayvon’s body in the area where other evidence objects were found, including Trayvon’s phone, the shell casing, and store purchases Trayvon had with him.

    This flashlight was the larger of the two fogen had on him when he left his truck to follow Trayvon, The flashlight in Zimmerman’s hand, according to his own story to Detective Chris Serino, was the one that was ‘not clicking on’..

    George Zimmerman puts himself, flashlight in hand, much farther south than in his ‘at the T’ story.

    • ay2z says:

      The location of the shell casing, the T, young Trayvon’s body, and the flashlight that would ‘not click on’…….

    • ladystclaire says:

      That damn flash light did an awful lot of rolling didn’t it? in order for it to end up in the same area, where Trayvon’s body was found and, with that said, Fogen has got a lot of splaining to do. the thing with that is, he will not get out of being crossed by the state.

      • Nef05 says:

        Not only rolling. It managed to roll all that way, then leap up and over Trayvon’s body to the other side of him and roll some more before it came to rest. He disgusts me. I pray he takes the stand.

  29. tharealkeisha says:

    They’re spending the money on PR and filing motions. No defense

  30. Jun says:

    It’s so obvious that it is a kid’s voice screaming and of the two, only one was actually a kid and the voice sample of Trayvon also matches it

    I doubt anyone will risk prison time for perjury during a murder trial, which holds a max of 15 years for Fogen, and also ruin their career in the sciences by lying

    It’s also pretty ridiculous the guy claims the sample can not be worked with but then proclaims he never even listened to it

    I am not too worried about the sample looping issue because if they really want to go there, they should contact the software engineers and my bet is the software engineers will state that it’s still the same sample analyzed and therefore would be able to tell the match or not

    When you loop something, it’s the same sample being analyzed, so therefore the sample would be analyzed twice in this situation

    Looping one’s voice sample does not change the fact it is one’s voice sample

    Even without the science, hearing is a natural biological function and the whole world could tell it was a kid screaming for help and mercy

    In fact, witness 18, 8, 1, 2, 3, Mary Cutcher & Selma, Jeremy, witness 11 phone call to 911, have all remarked that it sounded like a kid making weird noises or screaming for help and that the screams were ended with a gunshot

    Among other evidence

    Fogen and his gang are a danger to society and the people of the state of Florida

    • Malisha says:

      More to the point, I think: Put Fogen on the stand.

      Ask him, “Is that you screaming?”

      Otherwise, nobody testified that it WAS him screaming, did they?

      • Jun says:

        That would be classic

        Then they would play the recording of him stating

        “it does not even sound like me”

        Then we would hear more lies and stories from Fogen

      • Trained Observer says:

        Any chance the State can introduce the recordings without any “expert” witnesses to tell jurors what to think about whay they are hearing? Aren’t on the scene witnesses enough provide background on what’s being heard?

        Then if MOM & West choose to muddy waters with their “expert” guys, BDLR (having gotten a free preview with all this Frye palaver) can quickly knock them off.

      • Malisha says:

        TO, BDLR doesn’t need to knock those experts off: too violent! Leave that to Vinnie and Tony. BDLR can simply show that their theories don’t change the fact that it can be shown that the screams did not come from Fogen’s throat.

  31. Two sides to a story says:

    Is it possible that Judge Nelson can hand all this Frye stuff to the jury – allow a mini-recap with the all the experts during trial rather than excluding anything?

    I’m on pins and needles.

    • Jun says:

      I dont think she is gonna exclude it

      The Frye hearing is about whether the methods used are approved to get a determination and they are accepted methods

      Nakasone is a liar because there is way more than 3 seconds of screams

      I think she will let it in and let the jury decide for themselves how much weight to give it

      • ay2z says:

        Doddington gave a clue to the FBI standards of sample quality in terms of sample size etc, as he admitted to Mantie, that the FBI had far higher standards than other groups.

        Nakasone was using those far more conservative standards in his work for the FBI.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Once evidence is admitted, does the jury have unlimited access to it? Can they listen to the scream recording as much as they want to? With headphones, etc?

      • Malisha says:

        Even if there were only 3 seconds of screams, the methods and forensic techniques used are generally accepted. Nakasone would not have used them to reach any conclusions at all — so that’s his way of approaching things. (Remember, the FBI reaches conclusions WHEN and IF it WANTS to!) That doesn’t mean another expert would not use the same technique and methodology, generally accepted within the field, to reach conclusions that Nakasone would not feel comfortable reaching.

        So that’s the whole story, from the Frye hearing point of view. The rest is up to the jury.

        Remember O’Mara’s claim that the experts on the audio were “coming down all over the place” so there shouldn’t be ANY expert testimony? So where did they all come down “all over the place”? NO experts said they could use generally accepted methods to conclude Fogen screamed the death shreik. Not ONE. Some said they could rule him OUT. Others said they couldn’t say anything about it (a favorite investigative technique used by investigators who do not want to form a conclusion, as obvious as it is, for political reasons).

        I saw a case where four children claimed their father had molested them; physical evidence from two out of the four (measurable tissue damage on girl children indicating forcible penetration) directly supported findings of abuse in agreement with the disclosures made; the Army Criminal Investigation Division issued a report indicating the father had molested three of the four children (not having military — only civilian — medical records on the fourth child); and the CO refused to prosecute and assisted the father in getting custody of all four children in spite of the disclosures. We brought the case to the Inspector General of the Army who produced a 470-page report concluding that (a) nothing we had reported was incorrect or inaccurate; and (b) the Army I.G. was unable to draw any conclusions.

        See, the DOAIG, using a form of “reticence” and “conservative approach” like the position Nakasone takes, could admit all the evidence we compiled and still fail to draw any conclusions. Just. Like. That.

        The Colonel at the Pentagon in charge of the IG investigation told me that every time he spoke with me he got a headache. Yet he was very respectful and in fact very “understanding.” He “understood” and “yes ma’ammed” me to death. So I said, “Colonel LoPresti, you do not argue with my information and you do not disbelieve it.” NO MA’AM. “So I am presuming you do not think that I have faked any of this information.” NO MA’AM CLEARLY YOU HAVE NOT FAKED ANYTHING. “So I must conclude that you accept all this information as valid.” YES MA’AM.

        Next time he met with me I brought him a full bottle of Aspirin, 325 mg., 100 tablets. “This is on me,” I said. THANK YOU MA’AM. “You are now required to actually go through this information and come out with conclusions, right?” YES MA’AM.

        Nakasone-like, FBI-like, he came up with: “We must thank these activists for caring so much about the welfare of children. We can’t figure out anything else. Good-Bye.”

        He never SAID “Get Lost, Ma’am,” he just did what they do.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Interesting, Malisha. I think my dinner is going to come up, though.

      • Jun says:

        There’s nothing written in stone that 3 seconds can not be used either

        That’s just Nakasone’s take on it, that is it

        Nakasone’s feelings do not represent all of the community and if we did an honest evaluation I feel it would be accepted that even with 3 seconds, a determination can be made, considering

        1) One is a kid and not fully developed, therefore the voice will be much different

        2) Fogen has a creeper whisper pedo voice IMO

        3) It was less than 3 seconds and I could clearly hear a younger voice say “Get off” in a desperate manner

        4) The screams end abruptly at the gun shot, which even the dispatcher on the 911 call noticed and she can even testify to that fact.

        That’s why I do not have a high opinion of Nakasone. I feel if he really works for the FBI, that he should be fired. There will be times where there will be short samples, and his ghettoization of the art of audiology is fucking up the elevation of the art of audiology forensics. There will be times where there will be tough samples and if he is unwilling to figure out a way to a solution, than he should not work as an audiologist because he sucks.

        Owen looped it and his solution to the problem is effective considering the method to analyze is accepted and accurate, and if you loop it to be analyzed, the sample analyzed will thus be analyzed twice and therefore tells the fact in one go that after two analyzations, it’s not Fogen, in one go

        Reich is an old school muthafucka and even he could say that it was not Fogen

        Two different audio forensic methods both exclude Fogen as the person screaming for help

        Also common sense, it sounds like a kid’s voice screaming for help

  32. boyd says:

    “you gotta problem homie?” He said 2x only a few hours after the shooting. I bet when Fogen got home he was told nobody uses Homie anymore and that’s why he never said that again.

    I think that is important. Jeralyn disagrees, but I believe the prosecution should make it very clear Fogen used a very specific word that he later withdrew.

    Someone on here posted about the written statement Fogen gave police, I had not read it in a while, wow what a doozy of a statement. Everyone should read it again It clearly shows the disoriented mind of Fogen. Did he really believe NEN told him to do all that? That is really scary. And guys like him get a Concealed gun permit.

    No wonder he thought Trayvon was Al capone.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • ay2z says:

      boyd, LLMPapa put it together in a video as a series of sound clips from an NEN call. All those things WERE stated (can you get to where you can see him, address request, etc), problem is all those statements (about 9 points) were made in the call the week or so prior, about the suspicious person at Frank Taaffe’s place.

      I can’t find the video right now. Maybe someone can point to the title, I can’t remember but saw the video recently.

    • Malisha says:

      “The suspect again emerged from the darkness…”

      dahn da dahn dahnnnnnn….

      And the hero has to spring to the rescue of the flower of Southern womanhood ….

      Ta daaaaaaaaah!

      “Dear Lord, deliver me from this intolerable crap.”

      • Shari says:

        Birth Of A Nation

      • pat deadder says:

        Everyone here this was the best Saturday I’ve had in many years.Today No laundry done or lawn mowed but reading all your comments was well worth it. I couldn’t bear to watch omara or west but I got the idea.I laughed till I cried at your comments.This is a tragedy but making fun of defense’s antics relieves the stress and you are masters at it.May God give Trayvon’s family all the strength they can muster to keep going like they have so far.

    • ay2z says:

      boyd, New Script Writer Needed by Papa with the source of the clips,

      • ay2z says:

        Two sides tas, Papa did two, this one is the second requesting a new script writer!

        Telling, isn’t it.

        I think we should all enjoy the rest of the weekend off, Monday will be filled with more delays, more confusions over scheduling of Frye and Ben’s depo and whatever else the defense can drag out.

        Thinking that Crane and Prof are having a good weekend, they deserve it.

  33. ay2z says:

    Dr. Doddington talked about Human Aassisted Speaker Recognition in NIST. He called it by the aconym HASR.

    NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology)

    Skipping over to the Summary page, we read that the HASR systems did not compare favorably to the ‘Automatic’ systems used in the HASR trials.

    (could O’Mara be stretching all this into ‘the jury’ has not been evaluated nor Frye qualified for it’s ability, as individuals or a panel, as a methodology for determing speaker identification? –> snark but this HASR trial did include human listeners, afterall that’s what the ‘H’ stands for. )

    To do this, that is remove the ‘Human’ factor from listening and making their own human decision about the audio recordings or elements of those recordings, will O’Mara try to stop the jury members from hearing any of these recordings?

    Can they use this argument in their motion in limine to keep the 911 and NEN calls out of evidence at trial? Suppose they can try.

    A continuence might be useful in the meantime, and that ain’ta gonna happen on Judge Nelson’s watch.

    HASR Workshop pdf:

    Click to access hasr_od10_webpage.pdf

    • boyd says:

      Reich knows his sheet. If NIST was so good ( I worked in Gov’t private sector, and I’ve worked with NIST,DARPA). Have friends at NIST. So what they don’t know anything I don’t know.
      NIST would have made a product that works better than any other. oh no they do not do that. How convenient, they can’t put any of their crap in practice, but they can consult you? BullCrap.. LOL!

      The govt loves high degree personnel , nothing wrong with that, except govt work is much much different than the private sector. I see many high degree people in Govt HIDE. It’s easy to hide behind some document, while they’re waiting for a Zuckerburg, Gate, Jobs to make something happen.

      The govt has SME (subject matter experts) and they are, but it’s much different than an expert in the private sector.

      In the court of law I wold guess they’ll lean towards the govt experts.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Brings to mind the old expression about “good enough for gov’t work.”

      • ay2z says:

        Thanks, boyd.

        And catch the Papa video that Two Sides found for us, ‘The Script’ she posted below with the drama masks. That’s got the NEN call that gave fogen his new script additions for the 26th.

      • boyd says:

        Yeah I work about 1 mile from NIST. Before I ventured down to DC to take advantage of the demand for IT, I worked for 2 start-ups before.

        Reich is a private sector type of guy. I LMAO when he said “standards, oh that;s a few guys in a room telling everyone what they should do” or “you tell me what the standard is, there is none.

        I laughed my ass off. He’s THAT good. He don’t need no one to hold his hand.

    • bettykath says:

      As I said earlier, the defense witnesses all say that the technology can’t identify based on screams and they can’t identify based on such a small sample. On this basis, I predict that will ask that all experts be barred from testifying. With no experts to explain who’s screaming, they will next try to get the tape inadmissible.

      • Jun says:

        That sounds really stupid to be honest because the experts did identify who was screaming for help

        & Nakasone is lying because there is more than 3 seconds of scream tape

        as well, even without forensic equipment, everyone can tell it’s a kid screaming for help and mercy, including the judge and the press that were there

        The defense also brought in people who do not even work in that field nor have they even bothered to listen to sample to state objectively state that it can not be used

        Reich even offered to play the tape to prove that he could ID it, and West said “No”

        JMO but I think Nelson already concluded that the methods are accepted and drew accurate determination and results

      • ks says:

        Huh? But that would not be valid Fyre basis for exclusion. The only test is whether the tech/methods are generally accepted and they all agree with that. Difference of opinion goes to weight not admissibility. There is no way the tape is not admissible regardless of what the defense tries as they have no rational basis to claim otherwise.

    • Jun says:

      I doubt it.

      Everyone in the world can use their own ears and listen for themselves

      It sounds like a kid screaming and pleading for mercy and help

      It sounds nothing at all like Fogen

      The judge, the press, the jury

      They can all tell it was Trayvon

      Anyone saying otherwise is just bold face lying

      Plus as stated the methods are accepted and that is what the hearing is about, if the methods are accepted and they are and they can determine a result

      Nakasone simply claimed it was too small a sample but he sucks and I am guessing lying because there is more than 3 seconds of screaming

      Then the defense brought in “experts” who know nothing about audiology and are electrical engineers or whatever

      It’s honestly up to the people who testify for the defense but it sounds like a simple perjury indictment and an obstruction of justice indictment if they dare lie on the stand at a hearing for Frye

      • bettykath says:

        Just to be clear. I said this is the objective of the defense. I don’t know what’s going to happen.

        While the methodologies are not new or unique, not one of the defense witnesses would even bother trying to do speaker identification based on such a small sample. I predict we will hear the argument that trying to use established methodologies to work with such a small sample is new and unique and therefore, the state’s witnesses should not be allowed to testify. If JN agrees, the next motion from the defense will be the inadmissibility of the tape b/c there is no one to identify who’s screaming. JN can either grant that motion ( if it gets this far) or she can decide to let the jury decide.

        The defense is properly putting an emphasis on the scream identification b/c if there is/are expert/s to identify the scream as coming from Trayvon, it’s all over but the hangin’ (metaphorically speaking)

      • kllypyn says:

        there was over40 seconds or more of screaming. Have these lost their hearing?

      • Jun says:

        That’s not true

        If the defense claims it is new, then it becomes a Daubert hearing on the evidence, if that is what they want, and then it is up to the judge to decide if the methodology produced an accurate result and my guess is it is accurate

        However, the methodologies are not new and are accepted by the forensic community

        The same thing happened in Canada with |Glove Printing|

        The judge listened to the detective about Glove Printing and found that although new, the science made sense and the odds of anyone else having the same leather gloves are a very slim chance

        The fact is that the methodologies are not new

        When they looped the sample, the same sample was analyzed twice in one go, so it is even more unlikely to be Fogen, according to the software since it says it is not a match to Fogen

        Anyways I am not the judge but she sounds to have common sense so my guess is she will allow it in and the jury can decide for themselves how much weight to give it

  34. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • ay2z says:

        Thanks for posting that, Yahtc, because we see the phone in fogen’s right hand, and we know this is time stamped 3 minutes and a few seconds, after the shot was heard that killed Trayvon.

        Then, we know fogen ‘claimed’ on video to investigator Doris Singleton early evening of Feb 27th, 2012, that he was not allowed by the police officer to call his wife, but says he asked a man with a flashlight to call his wife and says ‘within 5 minutes’ his wife knew about the shooting because she called his buddy Mark, who was at the scene.

        Shot heard
        + 3 minutes Photo of back of bloody head was taken by police officer while fogen making a phone call, but according to fogen, this was not to his wife.

        If fogen was not allowed to phone his wife, who WAS he allowed to phone, or did he not ask permission? Maybe he got permission to call his buddy Mark back, ‘the officer that I called’ which was earlier during the address hunt to RVC? Strange..

        LLMPapa found the comment to Singleton early on, putting it together with this photo above on the video, makes you wonder even more.

        Fogen’s phone record releases don’t yet show a call at this time, do they?

        Interesting Snip

      • kllypyn says:

        that picture was also doctored he had no horizontal cuts on his head.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for your magnificent work, LLPapa.

      All of these videos show your dedication to seeking justice for Trayvon. You have given so much of your time and brilliance to this cause.

    • Trained Observer says:

      YAHTC — Thank you for posting the refreshers. …

      “”The larger man on top … after the shot, the larger man was walking around … what I saw was … on the grass.”

      If testimony to this effect comes through at trial, doubt jury will care what audio experts think about new, old, or indifferent technology.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        yw, Trained Observer.

        These superb videos by LLMPapa incriminate gz and are based on solid evidence.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

  35. Woow! says:

    Who is the gentleman with the white hair that is always sitting behind the defense. He came forward during one of the recess breaks and I saw he was wearing a badge clipped to his tie?

    • ay2z says:

      The guy with every spiking white hair and reddening face? He’s fogen’s bodyguard.

      • Woow! says:

        Ok thank you. Has Fogen’s parents been in the court room or sister for support?

      • ladystclaire says:

        Some body guard he would be, my six year old grandson can take him on.

      • groans says:

        But another bodyguard came in to escort the killer out. ?????

        • Xena says:

          @groans. IMO, because the white haired man wears a badge, he is probably a sheriff assigned to that courtroom during hearings in GZ’s case, to escort GZ in and out of the building and to the men’s room. This is not just to make sure that no media is there, but also to make sure that GZ does not escape.

          A personal bodyguard would not wear a badge displayed to the public.

  36. boyd says:

    I’m betting the belmont stakes today, so I’m not paying attention, how did it go?

    I expect not so well since they lined up 3-4 witnesses to dump a poop on the findings

    However no need to fear, I’m guessing they never asked “who do you think was screaming when the shot was fired?”

    The evidence is overwhelmingly against Fogen. Wait till the witness say they heard a young voice and OM says Fogen sounds like a little kid. Wait until they get into his written statement. He tried to blame it all on NEN and some episode from 2011.

  37. ay2z says:

    Today Don West wanted Judge Nelson to adjust the order of bond conditions to allow client to report in to his bond supervisor during trial hours.

    So the judge complied, although she felt this was not necessary as they would know the defendant would be attending his own trial.

    A reminder about the bond conditions, and who originally rewrote the bond conditions for this defendant, and why. (hint, the reason rhymes with ‘why’)

    This defendant found himself on GPS, curfew, restricted travel and 1 million dollars on the hook, for his decpetions and lies to Judge Lester.

    • ay2z says:

      (Call to report outside of court hours.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Anyone on bail has the same conditions. Don’t see why Fogen should be treated any differently, especially after the jail call / paypal fiasco.

  38. ay2z says:

    The jury can listen to this expert’s opinion, he was there at the killing of Trayvon and is an expert, lifelong expert, in his own voice:

    An Expert’s Opinion


    • ay2z says:

      And ‘Just Listen’, no audio expert needs to define this meaning for any juror,

      (It’s rather like Mr. Mantai asked today, of Dr. French, did you hear anyone on the tape say “you are going to die tonight, mother fucker”? What you don’t hear on the audio, is evidence of something important too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Exactly. There are different ways to hear and ‘view’ the 911 tape with the screams and shot and these don’t depend upon science or experts.

        I can’t imagine that this call wouldn’t be played at trial. It will have a huge emotional impact and not in Fogen’s favor.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @TS, good evening and, the NEN tape sure would have an impact on the jury, this is exactly why they don’t want it in as evidence against the admitted child murderer.

        This case/trial has turned into something awful ugly, all because the racist bigots in this country want to see this POS get away with killing this AA child. when people talk about how terrible the world is, I can only shake my head because, it’s some of the people in the world that make it awful.

        Now we have some of the very people who criticize the world that GOD made, going to Sanford Fla and picketing of all things a damn murder trial. how’s that for logic and common sense?

  39. Malisha says:

    The lies he told were clumsy but he had no reason to make them any better than that because he knew, and had been assured, that he was immune to criminal penalties. He was so cocksure of himself that he said any old thing. He began to get a little worried when Serino let a few of his attitudes sneak through and Fogen would always respond by saying either “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” or just mumbling something so low that nobody could decipher it. “amknooph” or something.

    Fogen never had to worry about his Miranda rights or anything else until Lee bit the dust, Wolfinger fled the scene, and Corey held the reins. Then he thought he could finesse everything by coming out with the “I helped poor Sherman Ware” and “I have pBa-lack friends” stories, until it spiraled out of his control and he was taxed beyond his capacity for trickery.

    For hundreds of years guys just as murderous and just as dumb as Fogen have gotten away with just as bad and worse. My my, his bad luck to get caught in a scene that was played closer to the written law than the “law” recognized in his fantasy world. I’m all choked up.

    • ay2z says:

      and there’s Sr Z’s attempt at talking to the FDLE about how he might make all this go away.

    • boyd says:

      geez, the guy is a blatant liar. no way in hell so many extremely low odd events can occur in 5 minutes,

      oh wait, he’s the only witness so go figure. He’ll tell us next God talked to him. How can we disprove that?

      Next they’ll say Fogen sounds like an 8 year old. I listened to the kid’s voice, when kids get emotional the voice goes high pitch,….. He’s sounds like any teenager

      Jeralyn says he has a deep voice, she is crazy, I wonder now what her true motive was with Timothy McVeigh She has made some outrageous statements during this charade f a trial

  40. ay2z says:

    There’s more use for the audio than experts, the jury can listen to this statement by George Michael Zimmerman himself:

    He Yelled Out for Help

  41. Surrealdreamer says:

    Good Morning all,
    For some idiotic reason I went over to the CTH…I go over the occasionally for a good laugh but usually end up a little scared that people like that are running loose in our society and even scarier that most of them own guns…Anyway the opening page had me LMAO, here is sundances morning quote

    “Today, Saturday, the prosecution will continue their audio peeps – Then the Defense will drop the hammer with their EXPERTS. The defense experts are actually that, experts:” (they then provide links to the websites of the so called” EXPERTS”)

    I then made the mistake of going to the comments section where there is talk of Sundance addressing the country (because all the media will be there) from the steps of the courthouse. Some of his worshipers want to stand there with him for support.

    Disgusting bunch over there.

    Have a great day

  42. Donna Flores says:

    It’s all pretty obvious that Zimmerman fabricated the whole story. He never reached the short cut till you hear the banging of the flashlight because he was parked down the street by the mailboxes not anywhere near he claimed to have parked by the short cut.

    • He wasn’t banging his flashlight, his gun jammed after he chambered around.

      And another clue.

      Subsequently you hear him say “shit gun” because it jammed. That wasn’t his flashlight because if it was they would duplicate the sound with his flashlight. Since he likes to pretend he’s a police officer, I suspect he was using a flashlight and gun technique to confront TM.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Perhaps I have a misunderstanding of the gun racking technique, but I don’t think it makes that much noise. Doesn’t the shell advance by pulling the trigger? Then when you’re ready to shoot it’s another pull?

    • ay2z says:

      There is a critical role for the flashlight that fogen claimed wouldn’t go on, and it’s not about the sounds, it’s proof that where that flashlight was dropped, it was dropped from fogen’s hand 45 feet from where he said Trayvon punched him one blow, to the ground.

      That flashlight is hard forensic evidence, backed up by fogen’s own statements to Serino and by the photo documentation and triangulation surveys of the scene and evidence locations.

      As much as he tries to, as Prof said, sell us on a story of swatting flies at night and in the rain, the killer is stuck with the substantial and critical distance from the ‘T’. Forgen’s story is proven false and the flashlight puts him there. The non-clicking on larger flashlight, not the little keychain one.

      Whrn Serino heard this from fogen, he immediately asked fogen if he knew how things things can go. Serino knew from the flashlight admission, that fogen was lying about the encounter with Trayvon, and where it occurred.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        And Fogen hesitates and then says justifiable homicide, if I remember correctly, the turkey.

  43. Two sides to a story says:

    Reading on a Fogen support site that defense filed another continuance but don’t have a link.

  44. mcave77 says:

    @BlueJ64 just posted this from twitter:

    NCIS (Navy Criminal Investigation Service) is buying Biometric Software used to ID Trayvon’s scream

  45. mcave77 says:

    #zimmerman – NCIS (Navy Criminal Investigation Service) is buying Biometric Software used to ID Trayvon’s…— R J (@BlueJ64) June 8, 2013

  46. Just out of curiosity, has anyone listened to the TM screams all the way up with earphones on? I can clearly hear GZ say “help me” right before TM screams his last “help me” before he was shot. Those two “help me”s cannot possibly be the same person and if anyone else could hear that they would say the same. Maybe I missed it, but I can’t possibly be the only person that can hear it.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t hear it well, but some people say that Fogen is mocking Trayvon.

    • Malisha says:

      I believe Fogen screamed “Help Me” for the benefit of Jeremy and because lights were going on all around him and he wanted to appear to be in a situation where he HAD TO KILL. It was “staging,” not desperation or fear. He knew Tim Smith was either ON the scene or close to it; he knew neighbors saw him now; he knew he was “running out of time.”

      • Donna Flores says:

        Malisha, I have said that since day one

      • George Zimmerman said “help me” he didn’t scream “HELP MEEEE” George was talking to someone and not yelling for help across the neighborhood. As for those who can’t hear it, its right before TM cries “HELLLPP MEEE” and then was shot. You have to wear headphones with the sound turned all the way up.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        He did describe to Serino or Singleton that he said help me to Jeremy etc. So maybe it’s that utterance and it’s a yell. Fogen made it sound like a conversation in middle of getting pummeled.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t even hear it all that well with headphones and the sound turned up. Trayvon’s screams are gutwrenching though.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I’m thinking that if fogen did say help me, it was to say, “You crook asshole-who-ain’t-getting-away-on-me, who do you think you are, yelling ‘help me’ when I’m gonna turn you over to the police.” Defendant is maybe SO dense, that he did not ever register that Trayvon was his neighbor’s guest and not what defendant thought he was, until a few days after he killed him. I have always thought defendant is a major sadist who got major jollies out of this, at first. He seemed so exhilarated at the reenactment, and at the police station the next day, that it’s obvious he never saw his victim as a member of the human family– and neither did anyone in his circle of friends and family.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        My question…. if indeed one can hear George saying/yelling/yelping “help me” DURING that death shriek…. how exactly does one do that? Is George a trained ventriloquist too? He can speak/yell/yelp the words “help me” and scream in terror ” STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP” at the same darn time? That George… he sure is one talented child killer….

        One more day Georgie…. tick tock

        HOODIES UP

    • Tasha Harris says:

      Please remember though that Zimmerman saying “help me” means nothing because he is alivs. The law says that if Martin screamed help me at any time that signifies giving up and since he was clearly shot after he had given up its murder. The defense cannot find anyone willing to say Martin did not scream and that’s why they don’t want this evidence admitted.

    • What’s relevant about it to me is that the person doing the screaming and crying was TM. What is also relevant is that he was talking to someone.

      This is what I believe happened. TM was trying to get to Jeremy’s home because that is the only lights he saw. Fogen said help me to Jeremy and TM didn’t see him because he was too busy trying to break GZ’s hold on him, that’s when I think TM saw Jeremy and yelled help me right after he heard GZ say help me. Instead he turned and went in the home(sic).

      I also believe that the 911 call from Jeremy’s home was preplanned as soon as they found TM because her call was seconds after the initial encounter. I believe they both knew GZ was outside looking for someone and hence their inconsistent statements to cover up for that.

  47. Two sides to a story says:

    So I’m catching up on YouTube with French’s testimony – it’s far more interesting than Doddington and he’s far more qualified to discuss voice recognition.

    Does he say anything that helps the state?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      He’s at least interesting, doesn’t talk in circles, and knows his stuff. And the accent is nice.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oops, now I’m getting to the part where French is telling the defense exactly what they want to hear. : / Very measured and not arrogant, though.

  48. willisnewton says:

    Okay – on to jury selection. Hopefully this will be more interesting than competing experts.

    I can’t help but think that the 911 audio will never be THE determining factor in a juror’s decision making process. I do think the experts can give opinions but I’m not sure anyone will ever think their qualified opinions rise above the standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    For this reason and others I’m guessing the state will not try to rely very heavily on the expert’s opinions about the 911 call to make their case for M2. Instead, they will use the experts to support a common sense argument – that the screaming ends with the gunshot, and the sounds, if made by the defendant, don’t seem to match his description of being MMA punched, head slammed and choked, etc .

    • ay2z says:

      common sense, absolutely

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Maybe this time gz will take his “tiger swipes” all the way down to where the body was found? The timing and the eyewitness statements don’t provide him with any help at all. I’m pretty sure the SP has a piece of evidence or two that hasn’t been released that really puts the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. My guess is Omar knows what it is and is trying to work his way around it.

      Meanwhile it’s in gz’s eyes, it’s finally dawning on him that something really, really bad is getting ready to happen and there’s nothing he can do about it. He’s lost the faith and confidence of his own lawyers who are making fools of themselves as they struggle along.

      The media seem to be reading the signals from the defense team and realize that they don’t want to be too close to the defendants side when his story finally explodes, exposing him as a horrible monster lurking in the darkening shadows and struggling against the light of day.

  49. Nellie Nell says:

    I’ve lost the feed, is it over for the day?

    • willisnewton says:

      yes, the defense expert couldn’t make it somehow – stuck waiting for a plane, I think and so the judge called it quits for the day saying that Monday they would start selecting jurors and the remaining Frye hearing stiff would be fit into the week’s court time.

  50. bettykath says:

    JN is not letting the defense run the show as they seem to want to do.
    west: fogen not call in when he’s in court.
    JN: ok, call in before or after.
    west: but judge
    JN: call in before or after.

    MOM: while we’re waiting let’s do the limine motion.
    JN: no. we’re not going to interrupt this proceeding. move on.

    She’s letting them run the clock but providing work arounds.

    Are they trying to run the clock to 6/10 so they can try to change the criteria for the experts?

  51. Woow! says:

    Oh my I left for a few minutes to put some clothes in the dry and my screen was blank. Are they done for the day? What happened?

    • bettykath says:

      the next witness was stuck in an airplane on the tarmac so court is recessed until monday when they do jury stuff and work in other witness.

    • ay2z says:

      The last expert had left and ended up on the tarmac waiting to take off on his flight, so couldn’t get him back into position to testify. Not today.

      Will happen next week or whenever, to conclude this Frye hearing.

  52. dianetrotter says:

    Since there has been no additive value from defense “experts”, the judge should kill this effort off today. Boring, pompous, circular nonsense.

    • ay2z says:

      But he was great for the state, Mandai had good control and limited his questions and the witness answers, enjoyed this cross.

      • texad says:

        @ ay2z

        I agree he helped the state. I like BDLR and Mandai’s yin yang approach.

        One of the first things any trial attorney learns is that you NEvER ask a question you don’t already know the answer to. This wouldn’t work for West and MOM because they know nothing and would therefore never ask questions. Which would actually be a good thing.

  53. SearchingMind says:

    Its over for today. O’Mara’s expert did not show up. This is what happens when Beavis and Butthead run the show.

  54. whonoze says:

    Th-thh-thhh-That’s All Folks!

    No Fryes today. Only cheeps!

  55. lurker says:

    OK–she called it. Witness stuck waiting for a plane to take off.

    Just noticed Z’s shirt, tie and jacket. Can’t his gay brother help him out with his color choices? Just sayin’.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I thought the witness was going to testify via Skype? How then does he get to be stuck wainting for the plane? Does he need a plane to get before the computer? I am disgusted with O’Mara’s sloppiness.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        apparently stuck on one and can’t get off because of other air traffic?

      • groans says:

        A preview of O’Mara’s/West’s trial coordination abilities, perhaps?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        No, I guess had to leave his original position and got on a plane.

        • ic2fools says:

          We have seen Omar theatrics in/out of courtroom . Fake emotion, lies with straight face and feeble attempts of persuasion.

          I remember 10yrs or so ago in an attorneys I saw a book on the shelves. The title caught my eye. The book was to teach trial lawyers acting techniques and strageties.

          Here are a couple of books Omar may have studied, but he failed horribly in this attempt:;

          Theater Tips and Strategies, Winning Jury Trials Using Acting Techniques and Lust for Justice

          Your post jogged that memory.

          As slow as West is I noticed this morning he had a bit more pep. However, I now believe he was stalling yesterday requiring more court time to complete defense presentations. Done purposely to delay proceedings. To defense surprise Judge Deborah call court in for today a Saturday. By no means was included in defense plan ‘create hearing delay.

          If it had worked they would have ask for a ‘continuance’. Regardless we see today they still had not finished. Retaining an expert from another country whom they chose as part of the plan. They thought could help create the delay.

          Omar using that hot lie their expert was stuck waiting for a plane. We know they had to have prior knowledge of his schedule.

          The airline I flew on just last month offered wifi while in air, which needed to be purchased prior to the flight. So they could have purchased the wifi needed for skype. All airports have free wifi until you board the plane.

          No excuse not one, Omar is out of his league and out of his mind. No morals…..

      • Xena says:


        I am disgusted with O’Mara’s sloppiness.

        Now we know why he wanted his witnesses to appear via video — because at least one is in London. That witness no doubt had plans for the weekend — had no idea that West would be so slow and so uninformed that testimony would continue for 2 days.

        Rather than advise the court that the witness may not be available today, O’Mara tried playing the waiting game and telling Judge Nelson what else she could hear and rule on while waiting.

        If O’Mara is allowed, his “expert” witnesses might extend Jodi Arias’ record.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Jooonyar lacks taste on all fronts … he’s a disgrace to the LGBT community, if he’s truly a member, that is.

      IMO he’d claim anything to get attention.

  56. Two sides to a story says:

    So does the hearing resume and conclude with the testimony of this witness during the week?

  57. ay2z says:

    Got a full audio of Mandai’s cross of Doddington. He proved to be a very good witness for the state, much better attitude towards the questioner, and helped the state make their argument about differences of opinion, value to advancement in a field, based on differences of opinion by experts, the need for these differences vs all the same opinion situation. And more.

    Recess in this hearing until sometime when there’s time next week.

  58. ay2z says:

    Sidebar, no audio yet, assume more delays to get witness in place in London. It’s well into the evening there now.

  59. looolooo says:

    Couldn’t view today’s episode of “Frye Me A River”. Because its about the length of the ‘Nile’ it’s self!

    What happened? Was there a ruling?!

  60. ay2z says:

    Love this Doddering witness as he turns for the state.

    Mandai is da man!

    • dianetrotter says:

      Turn for the State AND Georgie is paying for it.

      • ay2z says:

        $500 per hour, or a rate deal for the whole day. Higher hourly than Dr. French.

        Will he discount fogen’s bill for all the ‘don’t know’, ‘out of my expertise area’ and otherwise inability to answer the defense questions?

        Forgen should ask.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Nope, no discounts, he came he testified, that’s it. If the defense didn’t ask the right questions that’s their fault. Obviously the defense was not prepared for this hearing, thus they blundered and stumbled and their paid expert witnesses wound up doing the defense more damage than good. Gee, Omar could have gone to the local college or even high school and hired an instructor or professor to consult with and/or help him prepare for the frye, but nope, dummie doesn’t know how to seek advice when he needs it. He is the worst, most unprofessional attorney I’ve ever seen. O’Mara Law — “Because We’re Never Ready You’re Toast!

      • groans says:

        Any surcharge for Saturday testimony?

      • Dave says:

        I hope that he insisted on payment up front.

  61. fauxmccoy says:

    so they are waiting for some ‘expert’ to get to a computer with an internet connection? what’s up with that?

  62. Woow! says:

    MOM and West is trying to drag this out in hopes that JN will not call folks in on a Sunday and delay the trial. I think she sees through this and will put her foot down.

  63. Tasha Harris says:

    Am I correct in concluding the defense experts haven’t even attempted to do what the state’s experts have done before concluding its impossible?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sounds like they haven’t – but these long sessions make my head spin.

    • willisnewton says:

      Yes, the defense wants to put forth the general argument that what’s available for experts to examine is not good enough to make any determination by; and that this decision regarding quality is the defacto standard by which MOST experts operate.

      The FBI, for example seems to have some standards that this sample doesn’t live up to.

      The prosecution’s experts say the FBI standards shouldn’t preclude them from making a QUALIFIED opinion about what is heard being a match or not.

      The defense wants to present the idea that the only thing that matters is whether or not ALL doubt can be removed from a determination.

  64. bettykath says:

    hmmmm, this isn’t my field but no one can do any good analysis on the sample. and how many hours did mom use to find this out?

  65. willisnewton says:

    Defense witness is late, and so the defense attnys try to bring up limne motions and the judge wont have it.

    Then West tries to get the GPS monitoring device call-in times relaxed while he is in court. Apparently GZ is supposed to cll in twice a day and West wants her to waive that while he is in court during the trial each day.

    The judge shuts him down by telling him to call in before and after court sessions, essentially.

    I think the guy is a serious flight risk. I’m glad she didn’t relax those call in times.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      No other M2 suspects in the US get their call-in times relaxed and their curfews extended. Sheesh.

    • Trained Observer says:

      willis — thanks for explanation. Phone rang and I could only hear with half an ear. JN just extended his curfew to 10 pm yesterday. Aren’t these hogs ever satisfied?

      And what is so damned difficult about calling in twice a day, before and after court?

      I apparently also need clarification on the point of defense request.

    • groans says:

      The defense’s reason for requesting the call-in time waiver? That’s easy:

      The judge gave them an inch.

    • pat deadder says:

      Willis I think west said he has to call in every other day.Must go and check.

  66. Woow! says:

    Are they through for the day?

    • willisnewton says:

      no, not finished, sadly.

      short recess to allow the next witness, someone the defense is calling – an expert, i presume, to arrive at a location where they are to skype in their testimony.

    • Nef05 says:

      No, they are in recess until the defense can get the next witness up on skype. I don’t know who’s on direct, West or O’Mara – so I think I’ll take this opportunity to run out and cut my handkerchief sized lawn. I’m sure they’ll still be at it when I get back. On second thought, maybe I’ll cut the backyard, as well. (sigh…)

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hahaha… Not yet, I just heard Nelson say that there were a couple of experts stranded at an airport who couldn’t make it today. I think she said that this could continue after the trial started, in the background after jury selection or some such. Maybe she’ll give half day jury selection and half day frye, I don’t know, we’ll see.

      I’ll bet the legal community is laughing their assets off over Omar’s performance, experts from other than the targeted field, paid and put on the stand too boot, proves that Omar’s is too dangerously mental deficient to be holding himself out as a defense attorney.

      I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, a normal profession, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing, he seeks professional advice. Omar assumes that he knows it all and/or that what he doesn’t know he can fake it. Well, faking it might get you over one or two questions, but not through a series of question where you have a real goal you must reach.

      Oh wait, Omar already knows whose voice it was on those tapes! That explains why he has to stay away from real audiologists. Thus he can put nuclear engineers and auto mechanics on the stand, chemists, metallurgists and even an Egyptologist. But, under no circumstances must he put an audiologist on the stand. Just like during the trial he must not put on the stand, anyone who might praise gz’s character. Like for instance Oysterman, Taaffe or “Rent-A-Friend”.

      • racerrodig says:

        “…Thus he can put nuclear engineers and auto mechanics on the stand…”

        I’m a mechanic of sorts….race cars, Hi-Perf, and such AND I do expert work for several lawyers. He never asked me….give him my number and I only charge $175.00 an hour. Hell, I’ll tell him what he wants now….then the facts at trial. In the racing field, we call that “sandbagging”

  67. SearchingMind says:

    O’Mara and West are stalling. They have no intention of finishing this hearing today. JN saw through that, it seems, and is ready to wait. This is getting beyond intolerable.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Yes, I can tell that she is sick of them and this nonsense. They are going to piss her off to no repair. Do they have no respect for this lady or what?!?!?!?!? Grrrrrrr

    • FactsFirst says:

      “They have no intention of finishing this hearing today”

      And their next “expert witness” have no intention of testifying today! Not after that deplorable spectacle! He’s prolly sitting in front of a computer monitor in London watching this mess as we speak saying “HELL NO! You won’t have me sitting in front off a monitor for two days making me look like a damed fool” I wouldn’t be surprised if there is no “witness”!!!

  68. Nellie Nell says:

    West is a sure nuff ding dong! He ask for a modification, the judge grants one and then he speaks more! Sick of him already!

    • SearchingMind says:

      Agreed. What’s up with this constant requests to modify the bond conditions? Is GZ preparing to take off?

      • texad says:

        @ SearchingMind

        Yep. He’s going to run. He was looking a little too cocky today. I think he made plans to run yesterday when he heard Trayvon Martin begging for his life. He knows what time it is. As soon as the Court finds out that he is MIA there should be a BOLO put out and he should be considered armed and dangerous. Because he is.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That would be wonderbar. Will it be by train, boat or plane? The bail bond co has eyes on him, but like the jail and NEN phones, he doesn’t believe or understand anything. The bonds man is just gonna sit back and relax while a million dollars takes flight, yeah right!

          What will happen is, gz will break out and move a couple of miles off the leash, before getting caught and brought back. Bond revoked and has to sit in court in chains. Doesn’t matter, either way the walls are closing in on him fast.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie –

            If fogen scramdoodles, it’s an automatic “admission of guilt.”

            Likely it’s an attempt that O’Mara and West are praying for.

            It takes the monkey off their backs.

            “Not our fault he was convicted!”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, a very serious admission at this stage since the SYG has been waived. Foggen would have to be very seriously stupid to even think of trying it at this point. A worldwide manhunt would ensue and he probably would not be granted asylum anywhere, not even in Cuba. Assuming he could even reach there. Though they’ll probably let him run and just watch from a distance while they cranked up the media machine. Then swoop down on him with media helicopters in the air making a huge media show of it. The only good thing to come of it is, the racists supporters and donors would be seriously depressed.

        • cielo62 says:

          texad~ gz can’t run. You better believe that the BOND company has eyes on him!


      • pat deadder says:

        SM He’s running He can call in Sunday morning.He looks too happy and his brother’s tweet about who would play them in the movie is too bazzar even for him.Maybe that’s what the last begging for cash was for.Was it MMP who has said this all along.Does he have to be in court for jury selection.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        So who is Zachary here? Who’s the innocent next person whose life GZ takes?

      • cielo62 says:

        SM~ Sure does LOOK like gz is contemplating a run. WHERE, who knows? His ugly mug and huge frame would make him easy to find.


  69. Ty Flair says:

    The state just put this expert to shame,he left the stand with his tail between his legs. POOR GUY!

    • Nellie Nell says:

      I just got off work and tried to listen throughout. I caught the tail end of his testimony from the prosecutor and then MOM going in circles and asking him questions that he could not answer. What the hell is he an expert at because is sure did not sound like he was an expert in voice analysis and/or forensics???? Did I hear him say that he did not need to listen to the tape to form an opinion of the screams?

      • willisnewton says:

        What he was saying is that he allegedly has not “listened to” the tape, but that from what he knows about the conditions and the quality of the recording, and the duration of the voice samples that it’s not possible to make a determination of who is yelling.

        What he’s leaving out from this pronouncement is the idea that there may or may not be an ability to make judgements such as “probably a match” or “possibly not a match,” etc. He wants to limit the discussion to whether or not it can be determined to a scientific certainty or not.

        The prosecution’s experts already admit the sample is of poor quality and short length but feel they can make an expert opinion, albeit qualified.

  70. whonoze says:

    Does NIST set standards for the length of the pole Dr. French uses to touch forensic samples? Does Dr. Buddington check the calibrations? Is a 9’11” pole too short? A 10’1″ pole too long? I’m surprised MOM didn’t ask these crucial questions!

  71. willisnewton says:

    Thank god that guy is finished. He was annoying.

  72. Xena says:

    There goes O’Mara trying to tell Judge Nelson how to run her court.

  73. groans says:

    Good afternoon, just tuned in.

    Was the guy who just stepped down the first witness, or the second?

  74. FactsFirst says:

    another 4hrs.. I can’t…

  75. Rachael says:

    Take what he said and quit MO’M – JUST FRICKEN FORGET IT and let’s move on!!!

  76. colin black says:

    I realy am distracted with real world eating up my inerwebb time an I never even used the web b4 CAYLEE Anthony 2008? 5 years 49 when I discovered the net.
    Of course id heard of it but im a todgilite??? I thinkthats what there called .
    Didn’t even get a mobile phone till 8 years ago.
    An I still have it a simple nokia non smart.

    I put tenner credit on it 17 dollars an it lasts about six months .

    3 years ago my betterhalf gave me a blackberry for Christmas.
    With twenty pounds pr paid credit.

    Ive never used it I cant be arsed the keys to wee an fiddky
    Its a smart phone an its smarter than me apparently cause I cant make heads nor tales of it
    Once some 12 year old showed me how simple it was to get the innerweb on it
    Showed me a web page id need an electron microscope to read.

    Never ever ever use my blackberry justme trusty nokia…..
    An even then once in a blue moon

    I never used to use the phone much back in the day when cell phones were scince fiction like comunicater of star treck

    An Computers were the size of a house for BOND VILLIANS liveinf in volcanoes.

    So why the sudden neen to use the phone all the time
    Just because you can carry one around in your pocket
    Or wear one like an earing?

    W T F do people have to blab I
    inane drivel for you to listen to on buses on trains planes on the street.

    ..Blah blah yeah Im just round the corner now putting one foot in front of other
    Ah can see you now your in the window blahh blah
    Yup see you in a sec.

    An criminals strolling about with ipods an gps devises carrying out crimes

    What a boon to thje P T B have mobile devises been
    Big Brother noe knows were ew shop antalk an when ew get up go to sleep go on vacation all because
    Of smart phones in dumb people pockets

    M O O

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Who needs those ankle bracelets when we all have cell phones?

    • Xena says:

      @colin black. Preach it, brother! I only turn on my cell phone when I’m leaving the house and only my family and those friends I visit have the number.

  77. SearchingMind says:

    Now O’Mara is rambling and disoriented. Even his Expert can’t follow him anymore. The expert just doesn’t know and O’Mara won’t take no for an answer.

  78. Nef05 says:

    Is O’Mara throwing his own witness under the bus?

  79. Tee says:

    MOM, don’t ask this man anymore questions just rest MOM save face.

  80. Tee says:

    I’m ROTFLMAO! Did he just say ” I don’t know” MOM, like I said you should have not called on him as a witness.

  81. Rachael says:

    Are they going to have this continue tomorrow too?

    • SoulSistaWoo says:

      If the purpose of this Frey Hearing is to determine if the science of audiology is recognized by the majority of the science world… that has been accomplished… I have heard Dr. Reich, Owen and French confirmed as legitimate in the field.

      Let us move on and prepare for the real trial on Monday… Geez this has gotten redundant and is a big waste of time.

  82. Two sides to a story says:

    Even Doddington is getting impatient with OM.

  83. FactsFirst says:

    Shit just got REAL! Mantei’s tearing this “so called expert” a new asshole!

    • Xena says:

      I was just able to log on — found the hearing is still going. Who is the guy on the witness stand now? Why is O’Mara questioning and not West? Did West have a nervous breakdown?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Dr. Doddington, an electrical engineer with some knowledge of voice studies.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides. Thanks! So he’s a witness for the defense? He is really nailing O’Mara to define what he means.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, defense witness, but I’m not sure it’s going exactly like the defense thought it would.

        • Xena says:

          And their next witness is in London. What time is it on the other side of the pond? Will the defense continue calling witnesses until the end of August?

  84. colin black says:


  85. ZCBest says:

    Rene Stutzman doesn’t have a damn thing to tweet when the defenses’ witnesses get their assess handed to them on the stand huh? Hypocritical S*%#@!!!!

    Ugh. That lady just urks me.

  86. Rachael says:

    S L O W E V O L U T I O N

  87. Tee says:

    Wow He’s so arrogant he can’t keep his foot out of his mouth!

  88. Tee says:

    He’s rude to other professionals!

  89. Tee says:

    He just got caught up,

  90. ZCBest says:

    This witness is playing right into Mantei’s hands.

  91. Nellie Nell says:

    Robert Jr Tweet: Robert Zimmerman Jr. ‏@rzimmerrmanjr 27 May

    Last night me & sister actually brainstormed who would play us in “the movie” today and 2moro ill tweet about how hard this is on my family!

    Yeah, they think this is all a freaking game!!!

    • Rachael says:

      You have GOT to be fucking kidding me!!! Please tell me that is not true. OMG!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good God.

    • OMG! Is this the reason he is before the cameras?

    • Trained Observer says:

      “me and my sister” … Is English this jerk’s second language.

      Dear Joonyar: Given how YOUR family has behaved since Trayvon’s murder, circumstances can’t possibly be too hard for your entire disgusting racist tribe.

      As for casting a movie, what makes you and your silly sis think you’d even have roles? You are strictly lower rung on a ladder of losers.

    • Girlp says:

      Disgusting people!

    • colin black says:

      No brainer for junior weezeee
      If Peewee Hermans Diary is open he is a shoo in.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      They have no real concern for gz, they don’t arrive with him, they don’t exchange glances in court when things happen, they don’t offer him comfort or companionship during breaks and recesses and they race from the courthouse the minute the hearing ends, leaving gz to exit alone. Even his lawyers seem to avoid him as much as possible.

      Oh and now there’s this: Earl Ofari Hutchinson Writes Trayvon Martin E-Book; Perfect Primer for the Trial

      He seems to have an impression that gz believed he was protecting the neighborhood, but if he thought that’s what he was doing, why didn’t he identify himself? Obviously, simply walking around, following random “suspects” detaining them for questioning and shooting them to death if they resist, is nothing he was told to do. Worse yet, he was informed that doing more than just calling in suspicious observations would make the neighborhood dangerous and make him a potential lawbreaker. Thus, gz was on a mission of his own design that night, one that involved a pre formed template of a plan, packed full of devices that might be needed, if a killing had to be covered up.

      Because he covers so many points with so many bald faced lies, it would be hard to believe that he had not thought about and considered these elements before. In short, he had in mind that either an opportunity or need to kill might arise. Of course, if it was a genuine need, then no lies would be needed. Only the opportunity requires him to fabricate a story.

  92. fauxmccoy says:

    question for professor:

    these guys the defense are putting forth as experts at the frye hearing — i do not recall them being on the official witness list that was supposed to be finalized weeks ago. is their function simply to testify at the frye hearing or do they go on to the trial portion? i’m confused.

    • cielo62 says:

      faux mccoy~ GOOD question! I wondered that myself. That dreaded witness list. Well, if work product isn’t work product anymore, then the witness list isn’t either.


  93. Mark Osterman – George Zimmerman’s Friend

    • ic2fools says:

      Nice SG2 real nice, Osterman, Fogen hiding much more, its’ all coming out.

      Thank you for your hard work…

    • ic2fools says:

      See I’ve been nice here ever since I up my trollz repellent supplies, time to break ’em out. Are 3chics only youtube? I googled and thats’ what populated.

      • No, we have a blog.

        • ic2fools says:

          how do i find it, i’m at 3chicspolitico, have not found the hater.

          WHERE’S THIS HATER, please…..

        • ic2fools says:

          the hater see we have similiar silhouette as fo pics, that is far as their feeble mind can go.

          i’ve been sincerely blessed for my age to be holding my frame, my choice for that particular pic is because it truly resembles my silhouette

    • ic2fools says:

      i listerned to dr phil/osterman interview for the first time yesterday.

      1. osterman adamantly kept repeating he was not there… remember how he he appeared awful quickly at the crime scene to help shellie move fogen’s truck.

      2. Mark says. “When I first heard that George had shot someone else… repeating what shellie said. i strongly believe osterman and shellie know who that someone/somebody is.

      link to that interview

      3. fogen/hannity interview fogen said the reason he got out of the truck was to “meet a cop friend he had called” (BDLR is going have a field day with that, State entered that interview as evidence coupled with fogen phone records we will know who fogen cop friend he called to meet at the other side the “T”.
      strong possibility the “fogen cop friend is osterman”

      sure is not the fogen story he left he truck to get an address for NEN operator defense has chose to use

  94. SearchingMind says:

    This defense Expert, Doddington, is Bond. James Bond. 007. Double Secret Service Security Clearance. What a Jacka$$ this O’Mara is.

    • ic2fools says:

      SM I jus thought about crazy Phillip Shepard, Stealth R US former Special Agent with the former Defense Investigation Services. eeeegggaaddsss!!!

      Boy was he an:

      • cielo62 says:

        ic2fools… guy so secure in his masculinity that he wears pink briefs!


      • ic2fools says:

        your right,about that, only thing is they were droopy showing all his wrinklin dirty china..and eeeww dingleberries….

        too happy those briefs were retired this past season.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Isn’t he the highest paid expert who contributed absoutely “jack” to the discussion? They could have paid me to ramble and be pompous.

  95. ic2fools says:

    Okay I want 4hrs 24 mins 02 sec and my brain cells back!!!!

    That’s right they don’t give refunds…..

  96. ay2z says:

    After lunch, we will be back with our double-double secret secret agent man.

    (quality and audience aural participantion evaluated and included intuitively for artistic impact in this exemplar of our fine witness)

    (sorta kinda looks like him too, sorry Hoff)

  97. fauxmccoy says:

    only 30 minutes for lunch?? what’s george gonna dooooo?

  98. YQ says:

    Riech asks for 16 bit data bc THAT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT. At 8 bit, the audio pixelates (almost like a low quality vid on YouTube vs that same video if you click the HQ button.) At 16 bit, the pixel points are a lot closer and more plentiful, giving the data a more exact representation of the audio. Easy to miss things in 8 bit quality. Say if Reich converted the 8 bit to 16 bit, it only converts the 8 bit data to 16 bit data. That doesn’t enhance anything, and the conversion makes the overall quality of the 8 bit audio even more lossy.

  99. Trained Observer says:

    How many more witnesses … or is Doddington the wrap-up?

  100. Woow! says:

    Ok what happened I left for 5 minutes. Has defense finished questioning this guy?

  101. ic2fools says:

    Hey Brainy Skeletor, no talking to either counsel while at recess or any reporters!!!

    Get ready State won’t tolerate you unprofessional sarcastic hot mess!!!!

  102. ay2z says:

    Break for lunch, MOM, don’t let this Dr. Doddington have a drinkie-poo with his ham sandwich.

    Judge admonishes Dr. Doddington to NOT speak to ANYONE, not even the lawyers, about his testimony given or to come.

  103. ay2z says:

    Love the expressions trying to keep from expressing (hands at chins) what’s going on, by the two state lawyers.

    Will be fun to see them make this guy react (with ‘top secret’ clearance he says, MOM suggests he actually has ‘double secret’ clearance).

    Looking forward to the change of guard on this guy!!

    LLMPapa, look for your music tracks for ‘secret agent man’ !! 😉

    Oh I hope Papa is getting audio of this guy’s ‘sayings’.

  104. amsterdam1234 says:

    Are we watching Monty Python?

  105. Trained Observer says:

    Double secret? I wish JN would put MOM on double secret probation.

  106. FactsFirst says:

    well it’s about f’n time the state shut all that ole good bullshit down! My ears over here bleeding.. It should be illegal to waste this much of the court’s time and money… SMDH

  107. colin black says:

    O T

    Sorry Prof but Fauxmcoy


    iM FAR FRO MEXPERT BUT KNOW from prevous experience that somehow both mine an better halfs ps are virus riddled
    Despite both Norton protected an despite knowing for certainty I don’t ever ever vist dodgy sites porn ect.

    Im no prude but have no intrerst in those type of sites that might have makware ect

    Every pc ive had has fallen victim to malware
    I had them feen cockaroaches J Airryarse was barking about.

    Anyway while back tou mentioned stuff that made me think you or ur hubby knows stuff.

    Bacicly its vital for personal reasons ect I CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE INFO I HAVE ON MY LAP TOP IM USEING.

    If I did months an months of vital stored corraspondance taped audi an vt evidence I require relateing to a civil case im involved in litigation against both a housing ass an a asbestos removeal company.

    An if this crashes im flucked.


    bUT In the past ive haad virus enter my system pretending to be a pc speed up or back up system an boom.

    My pc shuts down to install an reboots with

    That lovely blue screen.
    Dind have a Scooby doo what it was first time I saw one.

    I DO KNOW,,,,

    Is there anyway via Crane or Prof or Xena anyone with a site

    I could chat via email

    I have no problem giving you an most here my email addy.

    But cant post it on this open forum .???

    I wont hassle or estalk you just need a few pointers

    As I know the end is near for this lap top.

    A don’t want to miss trial of foggagge an

    I cannot affort to lose my data pertainging to my legal issues.

    And I will understand if not poss yours C A Black……

    • fauxmccoy says:

      colin — yes, back up your personal data NOW. you can find an online site that will do it for a small fee. when you have ensured that all your important information is safely stored elsewhere, get a windows boot disk and reformat your hard drive. it’s the most reliable way to restore, but it does take a while. you can contact me at for more help.

      • colin black says:

        OK I understand will contact.
        The most obvious soulution I could think of was to simplt copy the hardrive like what LE do.
        But can also have local pc SHOP copy your haed drive or whatever it is.

        I almostsound as if I have an inkling of what this jargon means.

        But basicly I take pc to PC Land an say her mr man or woman.

        I want all the stuff on this pc copied an put onto a new computer.

        An although its expensive its that important im willing to invest that much to ensure I don’t lose.

        Deep Sigh however
        if I go that route ie getting mirror copied hard drive of this pc data onto an other ney pc.

        Wont I simply be also infecting the new pc with the viruses or Trojans or whater the fluck the fluckers cal;l themselves.

        ???? Nortan keeps assureing me an my better half s pc are fine no problem

        xyz number of attacks blocked a gazzilion problems fixed ect.

        An yet there both riddled with viruses.
        My Better halfs pc has been hijacked by ASK FLUCKING JEEVES.
        Cant even get google as a hompage
        Acording to Ask JEEVES GOOGLE doest exist
        Some search engine thst
        An She never uses the internet or email doesn’t know how.
        Just uses her laptop as a gameplatform.

        Any way should realy cut an paste this to your addy thingy

        THANKS MATE.

      • colin black says:

        wont let me send email
        fluck spent ages writing an then error
        See what I mean it does this to me all the tome

        Says some errors ocoured

        No shit Sherlock
        THE EMAIL ADDY ITS displaying isn’t even my email so of course errors ocoured

        even if I type correct email still spouts exact same
        error message

        So I cant give or get your email that way????

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Do you run malware programs in addition to your virus program? I find Lavasoft Ad Aware (free version) and Spybot Search and Destroy (don’t confuse this with other names and it’s free or you can donate) run well on computers with any other virus program and will pick up some stuff that virus programs miss. My tech guys have always told me not to count on just one program.

      As far as virus programs. AVG and Sophos have worked best for me.

      Other than that, I’m not knowledgeable about reviving computers. Good luck!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i’ll vouch for the lavasoft and AVG. it’s what we use on our windows systems at home. i’m on a mac now and use other things. but i would definitely back up your personal data and that’s something you can do with an online service while watching this horseshit.

    • bettykath says:

      I back up my data on thumb drives. I lost some data when I didn’t do that b/c the techie who did the work decided on his own that I didn’t everything. Now, I decide. That reminds me, I’ve done a lot of work on files in one folder. Time to back it up again. In fact, this folder is copies onto more than one disk b/c it represents a LOT of work.

      • bettykath says:

        I’ve never had a destructive virus b/c I use firefox, a free browser, never the microsoft browser. or maybe i’m just lucky.

        and search engines. Bing suddenly appeared in place of google. when bing didn’t give me what i needed, i tried to get google maps. it gave me google but in some other language. a second time bing gave me something else i didn’t want instead of google. i finally got to google but then bing jumped in. i don’t like monopolistic behaviors. i think i’ll go to google every time. it shouldn’t take too long to figure out exactly how to get there every time on first try.

    • aussie says:

      reformatting is absolutely the LAST RESORT.

      Go to and download their virus scanner. Don’t get it from any other site.. It will take at least 2 hours to do a full scan; set it up to go overnight maybe. Do it with internet disconnected and Norton turned OFF.

      Is your Norton up to date?

      There is no point doing a backup that includes viruses. Clean it first. But you don’t need a full backup of the whole machine.

      All you need is your Document directories, as that is where your important data lives. Just copy them to a USB thumb drive. Do the Desktop too, if you’ve been saving stuff there. Check Tools>>Downloads on your browser to see if you’ve been downloading to some other directory, if so keep that too. Your emails are all held by your provider, if you use webmail.

  108. Two sides to a story says:

    Now Fogen looks like he wished he’d stayed in that truck.

  109. amsterdam1234 says:

    I didn’t think it could get more boring than yesterday. I can’t wait for cross.

    • colin black says:

      What you mean haven’t caught up on comments been out an about in real world
      Scooting from A to Z Like a whirling Devrish

      Caugh the last part of proceedings yesterday

      What you me cross isn’t the frie hearing over.

      An its time for ffoggagge to jump from the Frie in to thee FIRE of TRIAL.

      Jury selection stARTS MONDAY.

      Only cross you will here is between council for State an Defendant asking Jurours questions.

      M O M…..Good morning Madame an may I say what a fetching out fit you are wearing.
      Have you heard anything about this incident via media press internet ect…..

      Potential Jurour……Ive heard some hear an there cant say I paid to much attention though.
      This is America an unfourtunately bad sad an crazy stuff happens continuasly .It be impossible to read hear an absorb info on all that stuff.
      Im a working Mother my Husbands in the Forces fighting to keep this Country safe.
      I work part time at wallmart just to pay for child care so yes Ive heard of the case.
      But no nothing of what did or did not ocour that night.

      M O M……….Thank you for being so open an forth right but you do realise this trial may last weeks or even months an given your condition are you going to be available to be present at all times?

      Potential Jurour I can if chosen have my siter help with my children an wallmart will pay my salary if that’s what you mean?

      M O M …..Oh no Madame I meant given your rather obvious size youd have to be blind not to notice you are with child.Expecting another little bundle of joy an we wouldn’t want you going into Labour hall way through the trial would we?

      Potential Wittness……Im not PREGNANT I had my tubes tied two years ago…….

      M O M….Ermm ah move to strike …

      J Nelson ….What grounds?

      M O M …..I don’t think emm she emm may be biased aga mmm.

      B D L R…..No Objections to this witness.

  110. Nef05 says:

    Dude, if we’re going by “common sense”, fogen has already lost and you wouldn’t be here.

  111. fauxmccoy says:

    maybe his free mystery internet tool downgraded data from 16 bit to 8 bit?

    • ay2z says:

      with ‘Hammer and tonging’, let’s not forget! 😉

    • jd says:

      well, no what he’s trying to say (and failing) is more like this analogy – you have a cat in a box and you are supposed to observe it thru a peephole sixteen times, but half the time your eyes are closed.

      I’m not sure if he is correct, but what he’s trying to say is that there is only 8 bits of DATA recorded to a 16 bit recording.

      This could be a big point at trial if he could prove this is right.

      I realize this guy is dull, and a bit obtuse but he’s likely to be admitted as an expert.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        oh trust me, i completely understand. my point is there could be a variety of ways in which his data differed in bits from another participant’s.

      • ay2z says:

        Simple, why can’t the file qualities be confirmed as 16 or not, and then relate it to unacceptable in terms of Frye?

        Confirmed using something other than ‘hammer and tong’.

  112. ic2fools says:

    Oh Goodness who is this guy? Skelator with Brains , WTF

    Hey State knock knock knock u there? Please object and shut him up!!!!

  113. disappointed says:

    This guy is such a bad liar! Absurd that the court is wasting time on him. I am sure the Court has heard the “other language”.

    • Malisha says:

      It is very wise for the court to allow all this drivel to go on the record. The fact that it does nothing to substantiate Fogen’s position is fine with me. The way I deal with the boredom is to not listen; I only read comments and then I make my comments on what is reported on others’ comments.

  114. Woow! says:

    Somebody please put me out of my misery…shoot me through cyber space..I can’t take it…….. when is cross exam

  115. disappointed says:

    FREE tool, can’t remember the name of it. No way of knowing… Wow. This is total nonsense. This cat ain’t worth a damn. How much is he getting paid? Will the State ask? Better be zilch.

  116. ay2z says:

    All programs, the expert says, “display wave form, display spectrogram. They are all the same”. (he got his free on the internet to do his listening).

  117. fauxmccoy says:

    “i just downloaded some free app off the internet to listen to the NEN call.”

    but he is not an expert in this field. oh boy!

    • ay2z says:

      He is unprofessional, sarcastic to other experts in his manner and answers.

      About audio suggestibility, about the ‘imaginary stuff’ aka what Dr. Reich heard….

      “Apparently to mr Reich, it’s very effective.”

      About what Reich heard….

      “God, [chuckling] this is absurd.”

      • ay2z says:

        “I hammer and tonged it….”

        Says he found the 911 or NEN call is actually 8 bit recording, not 16 bit data.

        is “hammer and tonging’ a technique that has been evaluated and calibrated and critiqued by peers in pubished review?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        ay2z says

        is “hammer and tonging’ a technique that has been evaluated and calibrated and critiqued by peers in pubished review?


      • ic2fools says:

        You got that right ay2!!!! He’ll win the jurors favor, thumbs down…..

        I really could scream right now. This is Omars’ fault, procrastination procrastination, should have been expert witness shopping last year, he got what he paid for.

        Get ’em State, he can’t speculate, no foundation. Shut ole pompuss up, and wiped the smug smirk right off.

        ’bout time

  118. SearchingMind says:

    Expert to O’Mara: “I can’t speak to that analogy (of yours). That analogy doesn’t make sense to me”. LOL.

    O’Mara pls. wrap this up. I am gonna die of boredom!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i guess we should be thankful that west is not questioning. can you imagine boredom squared, baby!

  119. Two sides to a story says:

    Fogen looks all happy that they’re not jawing about Trayvon’s screams as the experts did yesterday.

  120. ay2z says:

    Back to Owen doubling scream sample.

    MOM; “Were you here for that testimony?”

    Expert: “Yes, unfortunately I was.”

    “violation of common sense… statistical dependance… I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose.”

    But it is simply the software that wants to hear something of longer duration, not something different necessarily. Giving the computer more time to perform it’s own function.

    Next we need a computer expert.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “But it is simply the software that wants to hear something of longer duration, not something different necessarily. Giving the computer more time to perform it’s own function.”

      I wonder if the state will cross on this.

      • ay2z says:

        That’s what I was thinking, not what the top secret man said, I doubt state will go there, he won’t understand it’s not his field of expertise, how the computer works, he’s confused enough in his own area.

        But I give this expert this, his sarcasm for his professional peers, in his, and his related fields of speech specialties, is all time low. He didn’t think much of what other people do with his advice either, like those cowboys and others.

    • ay2z says:

      Mr. Owen’s machine came up with a ‘non match’ as we would expect, says MOM.

      Expert raises eyebrows to that as he seemed to agree with what Owen concluded or came up with.

  121. Trained Observer says:

    “It’s a violation of common sense … I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose”

    Oh, just love it when this wit talks dirty.

    • Malisha says:

      No, homie, I guess you shouldn’t have said that. Um…

    • Malisha says:

      Violation of common sense?

      “Could you give me a few examples of what you might characterize as violations of common sense, Mr. Expert?”

      Well, yes. F’rinstance:

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who has called the police 50 times in the last couple of years to report misdoings and misgivings in his neighborhood can’t tell where the Hell he is when he does it the 51st time;

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who says, “These assholes, they always get away,” is not trying to prevent the particular “asshole” from “getting away” when he gets out of his schruck.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who says he is following “the guy” did not, when he found “the guy,” carry out a preplanned activity with “the guy” based on his assumptions about how bad “the guy” was and the evil “the guy” was preparing to do.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a kid who was “running” is going to hide and double back to face his stalker.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who has chased down his mark then screams bloody murder up until the moment he shoots the kid in the chest with a hollow-point bullet.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy can punch some innocent address-seeker 20 times and slam his head into the concrete 10 times and not get any of the guy’s DNA on his hands.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy on his back being beaten half to death would realize his jacket had slid up while he shimmied.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who considered another guy “the suspect” would not have his gun drawn and ready by the time he met up with him in the dark.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that there was no fix in this case when the Chief of Police, the prosecutor, and others fled from the scene as soon as the feds announced their investigation.

      It’s a violation of common sense to presume that the HOA paid someone more than a million dollars when they didn’t have to.

      And there are a few more violations of common sense lying around but I’m headed off to refresh my caffeination status.

  122. Two sides to a story says:

    LOL – I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose. !!!

  123. ay2z says:

    What he’s talking about now, is experiment set ups, “I don’t have the numerical results with me”.

    Ok…. so what about Mr. Frye?

  124. Wendie Dox says:

    you think these two lawyers have any idea how they are coming off? they are two of the least guys I have even seen.. and they dont even seem to make any attempt to be winning, anyone, over.

    • bettykath says:

      I think their purpose is to draw things out so they can get a continuance. otoh,if they can keep out the experts from identifying the person screaming, the next step is to keep that call from the jury b/c if the experts can’t tell who’s screaming, how can the poor ignorant fools on the jury?

  125. ay2z says:

    This guy can not relate to real forensic data, he’s an example of someone who says if it’s not perfect, we can’t say anything about it.

  126. Malisha says:

    No need to put Tracy Martin through that unethical amount of stress; I’ll take Fogen to the dog walk! Me and my friendly little cockapoo.

  127. ay2z says:

    Expert: “that is a fools decision.”

    MOM asks why: Expert answers “Weren’t you hear this morning?”

    MOM teaches him that he needs him to answer for the judge because she wants to hear it from him.

    Basically RIB… protects subjects to get samples, “how do you get real scream data”

    QUOTE: “You would have to put someone under unethical amounts of stress.”

    Does this expert mean like the torturous shrieks GZ put his victim under? Is he suggesting this would classify as unethical amounts of stress?

  128. disappointed says:

    unethical amounts of stress! See we do need to send z back to dog walk with Tracy Martin back there waiting to pounce!

  129. Nef05 says:

    IRB = Internal Review Board = People who decide if a study can be done without violating ethics, human rights, or constitutional rights of subjects.

  130. Wendie Dox says:

    i want to scream right now.

  131. ay2z says:

    “the NISt evaluation is huge, everybody knows about it, even the forensic speech community.”

    he says “Dr Nakasone did not submit to the NIST”, he says, and usual excuse not to participate was ‘too busy’.

    He won’t be viewed well by his colleges, on a professional level. He’s done a lot of degrading, getting jabs in from the stand that are irrelevant.

    NIST trial segments of speech, are minutes long, not seconds.

    These are trials, are they published, what are the reviews. BTW, is this guy published in peer reviewed journals in his electrical engineering field?

    He should write a paper on evaluation, and have that peer reviewed.

    MOM gets around to asking about papers now, re this study. Critique of technology or issues they were dealing with?

    Expert: “They wrote a paper on these results, that’s where I’m drawing my comments on.”
    (no cite given)

    • Malisha says:

      “Oh I was standing around in a room one time and somebody said: …”

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hahaha… Just ol’ toxic gz taking more innocent people down. Now it’s the experts, 😆

        • Xena says:

          Prediction; the defense’s London witness will be unavailable to testify. Judge Nelson probably suspects this and will enter her decision based on what has been presented. That is why she is not delaying jury selection and said she would continue the Frye hearing next week.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            For sure that by now he’s reviewed the previous two days of testimony and decided this is a farce that could very well damage
            his image. You really don’t want to be on the stand, trying to tell the defense who hired you, that their questions are absurd, don’t make sense, or that they simply don’t understand the case they’re trying to make. Then have Omar get mad and start knocking you down. Who needs it? Next time Omar calls his secretary will say: “I’m really very sorry he won’t be able to testify because he’s had his brain removed, but thanks for calling!” 😆

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            Then have Omar get mad and start knocking you down. Who needs it?

            RIght. I didn’t see all of yesterday’s hearing but one witness told O’Mara that he didn’t know what he wanted him to say.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It didn’t take much to understand that Omar was completely unprepared for the hearing. The way he used “biometrics” as if it was a specific specialty instead of an umbrella under which a lot of different specialties fell, told the viewers, the judge and the prosecutor that Omar was unprepared.

  132. Alicia Martin- Trayvon Martin’s Stepmother

    • Malisha says:

      Oh Osterman is so unctuous I want to pour ammonia on him. CLEAN YOUR ACT UP, you low-life piece of filth! Be on an airplane with YOU? I would rather take a Greyhound!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        They’re probably gonna grab the Oysterman for helping Shellie remove the truck, tampering with evidence, obstruction of justice.

      • Trained Observer says:

        @Lonnie — I sure hope so. It’s the least he deserves. Malisha’s right, I’d take a Greyhound any day over bein airborne with the likes of him.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      And now it’s public knowledge that GZ was a member of a gym specializing in FIGHTING! That’s right he could defend himself– and that’s right he didn’t need to shoot a skinny adolescent!

    • YQ says:

      Heartbreaking. Alicia is right: 29 years old is old enough to assume accountability. The shooting was avoidable in every sense of the word. Z has walked through life with his magistrate pops holding his hand the whole way. [Check the police interview. In the first seconds with officer Singleton, Z unintentionally desribes how his pops has guided him through life. “Son, I’m a judge and I can get you anything you want. My signature is on those meds.”] And when something goes wrong, when he gets into trouble-it’s always the fault of the other guy.

      1. My wife filed a restraining order=I’m gonna file one back because she started it.

      2. Bar fight with a cop=errr, he started it when he hit my friend, police brutality… can I do a pretrial diversion so I don’t get to spend the time in jail? That way, when I’m done with it, I can brag to my few MySpace friends when I get out.

      3. I shot an unarmed kid=but he started it and left me no other choice. And that was me yelling for help.

      Excuses are like assholes, everybody’s got one. Time to own up.

  133. Judy75201 says:

    Oh god, I can’t take this dude.

  134. disappointed says:

    Wish this were the gong show so someone could end my pain. I am to stubborn to walk away.

  135. Woow! says:

    I am just an electrical engineer…… classic….did MOM check this guy’s credentials before he put him on the stand

  136. Two sides to a story says:

    LOL – I’m an electrical engineer . . . not a forensic speech practitioner!

    • Woow! says:

      Loving it…just loving it 🙂 this is the worst defense team.

      • racerrodig says:

        Ladies aaaaanndddd Genteeeellllmen !! Now appearing under the Big Top…….The Greatest Show on Earth !!!

        See the fumbling, see the incompetence, see the stupidity of the FogenPhoole Defense Team….!!!!

        Guess the Fogen’s weight………if you dare !!!

        What a Circus…!!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yeah I couldda hit the floor rolling when I heard that. So that’s MOM’s strategy? TCTH must be loving it, one expert: “I don’t know what you want me to say?”, next expert on generally accepted speech tech: “I don’t know, I’m an electrical engineer!”

        Okay, so tomorrow we hear from the nuclear physicist, the culinary expert, the geologist, every sort of expert except voice techs.

        Huston to O’Mara: Trial is Monday!!! Either Foggen drops some of that weight or his state issued jumpsuit will have to be held together with duct tape!

  137. Trained Observer says:

    Toledo, France … er, Toledo, Spain …. artful name/place dropping, and it’s more impressive than Toledo, Ohio, huh?

  138. ay2z says:

    Degradation is the topic.

    “I have an anectdote about the conversation with Nakasone… may I share?”

    I was giving a keynote in Toledo France, no Toledo Spain, Toledo is in Spain, right? I was having convo with Dr. Nakasone…. he was relating to me an interesting case…. two individuals were the same but couldn’t be…. as they were speaking over the telephone. We had a good laugh about that.”

    All that to say there’s differences in quality of the transmission.

    • ay2z says:

      “Dr. Nakasone was not terribly understandable to me. ”

      “If there is gross difference in the idiolect….”.

      MOM asks about criteria or standards to give insight into those who are trying to give insight …?
      Expert says doesn’t have any input into that.

      Mom asks about screaming etc.

      Expert; “That was all rediculous”
      MOM: “we will get to that.”

      Expert: “I am just an electrical engineer, but I dont’ know much about speech… I can’t answer your question.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think this guy is coming off the way the defense expected!

      • ay2z says:

        Expert {big sigh} I am not an expert in speech forensics… (paraphrased)

        (re the forensic speech community….)
        Expert: There’s Dr. Morrison. who does not get along very well with Dr. French.

        Define your community of experts…

        Expert: “…. the ‘hard’ sciences, the probability and stats and theory communities, people quantifying, vs simply making decisions.”

        Hard science community vs forensic community.

        (is MOM going into junk science for the whole forensic science community because of lack of ‘calibration’ to be able to get reliable estimates of performance?)

        Ok. This expert does millions of trials, vs what forensic practitioners can do, so they crafted ‘human aided speaker recognation’.

        Are we going to do Frye on ‘HASR’?

    • Rachael says:

      Because they have bad phone lines in Europe as opposed to better lines or towers in Toledo, Ohio?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      scientist attempts ‘humor’ … bwahahahahahahaha

      • bettykath says:

        you had to be there……:-)

        he tells jokes like I do. but I learned that I can’t tell jokes so I no longer try.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          well, see — at least you learned. this dude hasn’t. it’s like he’s going into a ‘this one time at band camp …’

  139. Woow! says:

    I am enjoying the fact MOM can not control his expert witness. This guy does everything but answer the question asked and when MOM do try to press a question the witness is quick to infer the question is dumb. lol

  140. Rachael says:

    Ugggh, speaking of speech, I have to go listen to doctors and lawyers and police officers and CPS workers talk on phones while eating, talking to their kids, taking a shit, sitting on an airplane, watching TV and godknowswhat now so I can document it on paper.

    I’ll be back later.

    Do you think they’ll be doing this tomorrow too?

  141. ay2z says:

    MOM calls Dr. French, ‘Mr.’. His own expert.

  142. ay2z says:

    “I’m sorry I don’t recall” (whether system was telephone speech or whatever else MOM asked)

    Expert: “It was relative”, (re: doing better on telephone listening).

    • SearchingMind says:

      Expert to O’Mara: ‘I am just an electrical engineer. I have not done a lot on speech. I am sorry I can’t answer your question. I am not a forensic practitioner. I don’t think I can offer an opinion on that’, etc. It is getting better and better;

  143. Rachael says:

    Okay – we are up to today now.

    • ay2z says:

      about time. You got more coffee on???

      • ay2z says:

        back to 2008, about study time effect on performance. This guy can’t generalize.

        “When you reduce amt of speech to 10 seconds, for nominal modal speech, normal person talking over telephone, basically, error rate went from ….. for (minute and half of speech) down to 15% for 10 seconds of speech.

        Error rate went DOWN? (Must have got something wrong)

  144. Wendie Dox says:

    “I really dont know what you want me to say?””

    • Malisha says:

      Oh isn’t he silly!

      “What we want you to say, Sir, is that Fogen is innocent, Trayvon was a thug, and this case should never have been charged as a crime, and that Fogen can now be a judge like he wanted all along. Don’t you remember what we told you that first day when you crawled out from under the rock?”

  145. ay2z says:

    Expert: “What can I say?”

    • ay2z says:

      “guess what? I-vectors (sp?) do well the next year.”

      “Biometric does well or does not do well” and all systems are biometric by the definition I gave you.”

      “WHAT’S THE QUESTION?” (caps apology, but really… !)

      • ay2z says:

        Expert: “And listening to Mr. Owen…”

        MOM : “Did you review what Mr. Owen brought over yesterday from NIST?”

        expert: Yes

        expert: “I’m sorry, I don’t know exactly what you want me to say.”

        Expert says Owen’s software performed pretty well.

        Really really looking forward to the state’s cross….. expect short and sweet and involving the action of ‘eviceration’.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Methinks this expert is “concerned that he will get legal exposure”.

  146. Wendie Dox says:

    will this ever end?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      no, we’ll be putting this on a tape loop for your pleasure and submitting spectrograms to this good scientist to evaluate and pontificate on it … but he is not an expert, so sit tight.

  147. ay2z says:

    MOM please ask this guy if he has ever testified in court before, anywhere recently, or not recently.

  148. SearchingMind says:

    O’Mara’s Expert: “well I am not an expert in this area. I don’t do this kind of stuff” (i.e. regarding spectrographic (whatever that is)).

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yeah, that’s a keeper 🙂

      • ic2fools says:

        Hey IV Java Drip, I am sustaining this cross, aaaarrrggghhh! Watching pompous engineer demean Omar is worth it.

        See what happened, hey got what they paid for and getting tongue lashings defense deserves. Procrastination and Karma are 1st cousins.

        If durr-fense had done some research while expert witness shopping last year this expert would have been avoided and not be in our face today.

        (loudly geek laughin’)

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i managed to fall asleep during the dr french questioning … don’t know if i can bear to try to go through it again.

          • ic2fools says:

            girl please you ain’t wrong. i opened another to look at online sales.

            dr doddington is as bad as west, oh my goodness, kettle meet pot!!!

  149. ay2z says:

    Spectrogram definition– he’s way too detailed, voyer transform of signal. Just simplify what a ‘gram’ is vs a ‘graph’.

    Expert says “I am not an expert in this area.”

    Objection of state, witness just said he’s not an expert in this area, Judge Nelson ‘sustained’.

    MOM tries the lasso again.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yippy-eye-o-eye-yay … thud.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        trained observer says

        Yippy-eye-o-eye-yay … thud.

        yessirree bob!

        dear lord,

        help me to keep my eyes open.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Imagine that! This expert might become a fiasco for O’Mara.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was afraid the defense experts would slay everyone else, but it’s becoming clear that all of them simply have different expertise and different opinion. In some ways, they’re all saying much the same things. No ultimate, definite way to identify voices – only probable opinions and even then, those opinions will differ. Some will say the screams are Fogen and some will say Trayvon, just like we’ve seen up until now.

        Just my unschooled two cents. I’m a humanities major and not a scientist.

        • ic2fools says:

          Just my unschooled two cents. I’m a humanities major and not a scientist.

          TSTAS, your two cents has shown more moral intellect than the defense 500k every could.

          This man is not even a speech expert he is a dam engineer a pompous one at that. Not saying Omar doesn’t deserved to be spoken to in such a condescending demeaning manner.
          Yuck yuck eeee, if anyone deserves this witness its’ Omar HA

          Dude right now is talking to Omar like he is a child. ‘Violation of common sense.

  150. Woow! says:

    Ooowee “best from lay listeners (human listeners).

    • Rachael says:

      Exactly. It requires more than just what you “hear.” Hearing requires context to put it together to make it meaningful and that is where a machine has a problem, no matter how it analizes things spectrographically.

  151. Two sides to a story says:

    ZZZzzzzzzz. This testimony seems even slower than the past two days. Or do I have my Saturday head on? 😀

  152. Nef05 says:

    My dad used to say, “get to the damned point”.

  153. Woow! says:

    sorry I tried to say “when submitting ….standard”

  154. Rachael says:

    Ok – this makes sense to me having worked with speech recognition equipment for my work. But it doesn’t have much to do with what we are looking for here. What he is saying is that the equipment has to be trained to the voice to work “accurately.” That is why speech recognition isn’t good in teaching hospitals where there are new interns dictating every July. It has to recognize the voice to work well.

    Which is why some of the other types of things would be better for identifying who the scream belonged to because this is something different.

  155. Trained Observer says:

    Fogen sleepy?

  156. Woow! says:

    It is evident from Dr. French ‘s testimony that he not only read the reports of Reich and Owen but he also watched their testimony.

    His entire testimony was trying to discredit their methodology rather than provide his professional opinion. It seemed as if he felt they were beneath him. Remember he said “not widely used in the UK” as if he has a problem with U.S. audiologist. Please correct me if I wrong but did anyone else catch that.

    @professor — Do you think the judge caught that French may have watched prosecution experts testimony and tried to debunk it from a scientific point of view as if he was debating their method to prove his method would be more accepted as when trying to get submit your process to be accepted as a standard?

    • bettykath says:

      the state wants to use certain experts. his job is to debunk their work. He seems to be doing so with a sneer rather than actual reasons.

  157. ay2z says:

    Last thing I remember him saying, before I had to reboot to try to maintain the feed, was ‘intuitive’.

    Did this strange guy actually say he suggested improvement in ‘intuitive’ aspects of a system?


    Have tried WESH feed, but it failed too, think it’s my end, but they make you listen to commercials each time you try to reload the page.
    Back to clickorlando.

  158. Trained Observer says:

    Oh, which of the seven continents didn’t participate? Why not?

  159. Woow! says:

    This guy is not a good witness. Out of all of the expert we have herd from, he is the only true scientist and not from academia. He is one of those guys who are so intelligent they are boring. Talk to him about science he is good; deviate from that oooh boy.

    I think this guy is going to hurt the prosecution.

    • SearchingMind says:

      This Expert is still rambling. Where is he going with his testimony? What the heck has the funding of NEST and NSA have to do with Frye hearing? I am getting migraine.

      • LeaNder says:

        Yes, but that was interesting. In a way it’s all pretty easy. Research can only be done on a solid data base set. The problem of Dr. French was perfectly emphasised again by Doddington, really hard to get your hands as such a database for research. If there is no such database, academia cannot study it. Apart from the limited context of the the PhD thesis French supervised such research simply does not exist.

        The forensic scientist though may well be confronted with these acoustic matters pretty frequently and DARPA, NSA, NIST and LDC especially the first two influence research but have pretty different concerns or interests that no doubt drive studies. I looked a little in the NIST/LDC angle, that is pretty obvious.

        George Doddington did a perfect job in giving this curious foreigner a tiny bit of insights into the larger nexus between the private business and govermental defense field. (Texas Instruments – Iso International ?)– I wish Trent had shut up this time, unfortunately he babbled over passages I dearly wanted to understand–for whatever reason he seems to say not Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, can someone tell me what exactly he says here: at about 01:10, at the Defense Advanced he somehow seems to start Research and corrects to Private Agency, which would make it something other than DARPA. But for whatever reason I had this strong impression of private sector employees being “on loan” in governmental agencies. I encountered that habit over here. I may be wrong, I must listen to it again.

        Any help by native speakers? What exactly does he say at about 01:10.

        It feels to me he slightly changed towards O’Mara after Manthei prevented a rather long leading question by the master manipulator, which was sustained by Nelson. That made him realize he was in the process of being used by O’Mara.

        Texas Instruments, Iso International, DARPA, NSA, NIST, LDC.

        It feels after Texas Instrument it was Iso International, although that’s were Trent babbles again, that would explain his emphasis of evaluation and maybe O’Mara’s expectation he would much more emphasise standards than he did. But maybe I am wrong. But this guy is much more concerned about valid results than with erecting standards before he sees the tests, at least now.

        He cites Morrisson versus French. That was the Australian researcher I quoted, not long ago.

        Does anyone know of a video of the hearing without Trent babbling. I would like to listen to them both again. Personally I am not a fan of hearing to much matters out of the tape, but the Stop by Reich somehow convinced me. That may well be there.

        I wonder how and why O’Mara choose this guy. It feels he only wanted to challenge Owen’s statements about the agencies using ultimately the same tools. He needed him to point out the dire need of standards. But not even his friend Hirosato wants to surrender to tests?

        That the tools are all based on the same ideas with technical variations, like lately the “i-vector” technology or approach, is something French ultimately confirmed too. Although he himself uses a tool from the University of Amsterdam. I forget the name. Maybe Amsterdam paid attention?

        What I found funny, Doddington did not use Soundforge, probably since he never ever does this type of work, He simply downloaded a free tool Audacity to listen or “clean” the call..

        What I loved most is that we learned that the cleaning only has a minimal effect. I tried to explain that to Jeralyn. It was pretty funny to see here clean up a snippet of the ABC video to hear DeeDee say what George had told he said.

        Good night all. Strictly it is early morning. This was an interesting day. I wonder about, who defense will present on Monday. Doddington may well have been chosen as an expert on standards and that did not work too well, not even Hirosata? surrendered to evaluation, but he surely has his 14 seconds standard. 😉

        • parrot says:

          LeaNder, this covers from 00:58 to 01:28.

          He says he worked at Texas Instruments for 20 years.
          and worked at SRA international (Systems Research and Applications Corporation) most of time as what’s called an ITA, Intergovernmental transfer, working first at the defense advancing (He pronounces it “advansory”. I’m assuming he meant advancing, but I may be wrong.) projects they did see and then at the National Security Agency and the National Institute For Standards And Technology.

        • dianetrotter says:

          Doddington seemed like he has an ax to grind with all of the voice analysts because they dissed him and didn’t show up for his presentation. They already knew about the drivel we heard today.

      • LeaNder says:

        what I liked very much too, was that he talked about an evolutionary process. Are you listening Fogen? What science cannot do know it may well be capable of in a decade. Imagine how that would haunt you if you were acquitted. Or can you not be tried again for the same offence in the US? I think you cannot be over here, not quite sure about murder though.

      • LeaNder says:

        Thanks, a lot parrot, and good morning or whatever fits your special location. SRA International makes much more sense than ISO international. I also had the impression that the NIST/LDC angle was much more about data mining with an interesting language selections than obviously any concerns about a single human scream. Datamining: And there it surfaces again.. I also seem to remember Fairfax Virginia surfaced. That’s pretty close to the US power center. This fits much more his hesitation about standards and his obsession with calibration and ultimately enhancement of reliability.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He probably went into evaluation business and test creation when all the brilliant geeks knew far more than he.

      Competition and keeping up with the latest science has left him to just evaluating and not so much inventing and creating.

    • ay2z says:

      Evicerating the prosecution, swiftly and effectively, but then as he says, people don’t always listen to him, so maybe the state will survive.

      (big snark)

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think getting into this technology field in its infancy has helped him maintain his seniority. I not sure if he is up to snuff on all the higher university science for this field now.

  160. SearchingMind says:

    This expert just testified that there is a generally accepted science for both speaker-recognition and speech-recognition. The prosecution scores here. Now I wait to see what he has to say on methodology.

  161. Tee says:

    Maybe he shouldn’t have called this witness!

  162. bettykath says:

    This witness is having a hard time getting past his ego to speak to people who can’t possibly understand the complexity of what his genius has done.

  163. SearchingMind says:

    What’s up between O’Mara and this Expert? I can’t make out anything significant so far from his testimony. Can someone summarize anything of substance that he has testified to?

    • Nef05 says:

      Not even if you paid me to. I am so lost.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Nope … but Just askin’: When expert witnesses for the defense go rogue … is it a leading indicator that a wit 1) hasn’t been paid or thinks he might get stiffed ….2) is embarrassed to be associated with defendant after having done the analysis … 3) has concluded he/she doesn’t want to testify at trial for fear of jeopardizing future income? Again, just askin’ since I can’t figure out why this guy is here …

    • ay2z says:

      F16’s, cowboys, intuitive use, LDC is where the buck stops, NIST distribution chain and sends out, gets back, evaluates and maybe raises the bar, baton waving as a conductor, but they don’t always do what he advises seems to be his theme message working for cowboys and such.

      Like that.

    • crazy1946 says:

      His job is to drag out the hearing to force a delay in the start of the trial, nothing more or less than that….. At the rate the defense is going they will not be thru with this hearing before July….

    • Malisha says:

      According to “The Rules of the Road,” there are three things that enable a defendant to win: Ambiguity, Confusion, and Complexity.

      Complexity (“Pixels and pings and calibration)
      Confusion (Address no address at the T north south clubhouse homie blah blah blah)
      Ambiguity (Who screamed? Could have been one or the other? Who hit first?”)

      In spite of that, the State’s case is clean and strong and extremely compelling. One of the two parties decided to chase down the other, and he made a contemporaneous record of his deciding to do so and his doing so. One of the parties was armed and dangerous. NOT the other. One of the parties knew that the police were on their way so he did not have any reason to fear the other. One of the parties killed the other. It’s not rocket science.

      If there is any problem with the State’s case, it’s not about voice identification or screams. It’s about the prosecution wanting to make a show of doing the job of the People in enforcing its laws, but only REALLY doing that for purposes of not appearing openly to support racist-motivated murder.

      So we shall see if this whole thing has been a charade or not.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for your input, Malisha.

      Good food for thought.

  164. Rachael says:

    God, just get to the point!!!

  165. Wendie Dox says:

    who is this guy?

  166. SearchingMind says:

    Can someone pleeease put back The Mustache and The Goatee back on GZ’s “Micheline-head”. That would be soooo funny.

  167. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Is he talking about word recognition or speaker recognition?

    • Rachael says:

      Or speech recognition?

    • Nef05 says:

      I thought it was speech (word) recognition, at first – but now I’m totally lost. This guy would lose a jury, quickly. Like them, I WANT to hear and understand what he’s saying, but he’s all over the place, mired in minutiae, and prone to “digressions”. Makes it difficult.

  168. disappointed says:

    Easiest way to find out if it is Z screaming why not send him to dog walk. Sunday evening at dark and have Tracy Martin shove gun in Z’s chest. I think that would be fair and easiest way to figure our who screamed. Let me just say no one else should be back there but the 2 of them. jmo

    • crazy1946 says:

      Good idea, but can we substitute a can of iced tea for the gun? I don’t think Tracy Martin would need anything other than his bear hands to make the pig squeal. Or we could wait until he reaches the jail cell of his new best friend and tape his squeals at night when he gets to act like his brother……

      • disappointed says:

        lmao! I agree about bare hands. For that matter you could Sybrina and get the same effect. George squealing like a pig and the sounds still would not be the same as Trayvon screaming. Begging.

  169. Trained Observer says:

    Fogen pondering …. what does calibration mean?

  170. whonoze says:

    What happens at DARPA stays at DARPA.

  171. ay2z says:

    Defense should have stopped when they were ahead. This guy will have people lost and lost trying to show his obsession of details in calibration? Really?

    Calib is important, but this seems redundant to the point– he’s going after the biometric aspect.

    “If I could digress for the moment”.

    “I’d like to say, speech is different”

    “Speech… is like a dance.”

    MOM takes him back, and he interrupts. He’s not focussed.

    He did eval of 6 speech recognizers, published, and results of evals significantly less ….. (quality, or?) than ‘advertised’. Go figure.

    Mom tries to lasso him, get him roped and tied down on topic again.

    Now F16’s, advanced fighter technology, pilot to talk to his avionics. “I have some very nice testimonials by test pilots somewhere in his collection of video tapes, I could bring some and show some if you like”

    “speech recognition” “Yes, the variability of speech, the ultimate challenge.”

    His whole point seems to be that systems always make errors.

    (we got that)

    SRI, Stanford Research Institute, “…worked with them on research team, sr scientist, on my second day of work, I was contacted to be borrowed to the fed gov’t, so I really have very little work esperience at SRI Intl.”

    “Evaluation driven research”. Ok, got that before, got it again.

    Establishing research goals… evaluating… tasking to teams, the data, doing their thing, and conferencing and planning next step… ok… got that.

    This guy needs bullet points, SHORT bio work experience, bullet points. Fogen must be chomping at the cow pony bit.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks for this. I also think this testimony is far too detailed – why is Nelson allowing this?

      I think defense is coming off as trying to pull wool over people’s eyes rather than revealing all the details of the science. But maybe I’m being impatient.

  172. whonoze says:

    This is not on point. He is talking about automated speech recognition systems that have to work in real time, which, as I’ve noted, has little or nothing to do with the kind of analysis Reich did.

  173. Rachael says:

    LMAO!! OMG, this guy is funny. Hey, does anyone know why I can’t get this streamed from the link or the app on my galaxy S4? It used to work fine on my orignal Galaxy S, but had to upgrade and it says my browser won’t support it? Anyone know how I can fix that so I can watch it on my phone like I used to?

    • not positive but it should be a mere browser update. I think I saw something on youtube about this subject.

      but I want to get rid of my stupid iphone s4 and get the galaxy- what ever number has the biggest screen..

      • Rachael says:

        It’s the note. I almost got that, but I couldn’t afford it. And it would be too hard for me to carry around.

  174. Woow! says:

    lol MOM can’t control his witness!!

    • ZCBest says:

      MOM can’t control his client or his clients’ family either…lol. Not surprising he has a rogue witness.

  175. Nef05 says:

    OMG! We’re going to be here for hours. Thank goodness West isn’t on direct or we’d be here for days, with these two.

    • Rachael says:

      I know. I think they are related.

    • SearchingMind says:

      O’Mara is equally awful. He is a very slow but good window dresser. It seems also that O’Mara has not gotten used to the difference between speaker-recognition and speech-recognition and his expert has to keep correcting him (I don’t even know what the difference is).

      • Nef05 says:

        I think: Speaker recognition would be IDing the voice (Trayvon/Zimmerman). Speech recognition would be IDing the words that are spoken (Help, I;m begging you, get off, etc). At least that’s the way I’m understanding it so far. I could be wrong though.

  176. ay2z says:

    “You already KNOW my name” What an example for a witness to use to his lawyer.

    Entry door recognition. “I’d love to talk about that for hours”

  177. Rachael says:

    You already know my name. LMAO

  178. ay2z says:

    Doddington or Dodderington… oh, Doddington.

    • SearchingMind says:

      “Speech is like a dance”. That new theory. And a good one at that. This expert started off rambling and nervous. I hope he is able to collect himself in the coming few minutes.