Sunday, May 5, 2013
Good Evening:
Amanda Sloane of HLN TV reported last Tueday after the hearing before Judge Nelson:
Cries for help: Is it Zimmerman or Trayvon?
Defense attorney Mark O’Mara said Tuesday that a 911 call could be the key piece of evidence in the case against George Zimmerman. In the background of the audio recording, you can hear someone screaming for help.
If it’s Zimmerman, O’Mara said it shows that the night watchman was the one under attack “and documents his story completely — it also documents his injuries.” If, however, it’s 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s voice on the recording, then it could show Zimmerman was “acting in a very aggressive way toward him,” O’Mara said.
So which one is it?
O’Mara told In Session correspondent Jean Casarez that witnesses for the prosecution and the defense can’t seem to agree. So, he wants to have a hearing to decide if anyone should be able to testify about the voice at all.
Should jurors be able to decide for themselves whom they hear on the call?
Translation of O’Mara-speak into ordinary English: O’Mara knows that Trayvon uttered the 40-second terrified shriek.
Quite an admission by the man who has been so certain in the past that his client uttered the shriek.
Most of us are not surprised because we figured it out last summer.
We have been wondering when everybody else would finally figure it out.
So, what does O’Mara want to do?
He wants to exclude the tape, so the jury will not even hear it.
There is absolutely no chance Judge Nelson will grant that motion.
The legal rule is that arguments regarding the identity of the person who uttered the terrified shriek go to the weight that the jury should assign to the opinion of each witness and not to the admissibility of the testimony itself.
Notice the disappearing defense.
No immunity hearing and now this damning admission.
Say good-bye, George.
Justice for Trayvon
(H/T to Elcymoo for providing the link to the HLN article)
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Fred
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Still waiting for the PTSD motion, but this one will be different.
Fogen will have PTSD because he smashed his head against the wall when his lawyer told him Florida law actually did not require that the prosecution obtain defense permission to put on an expert witness. When he smashed his said head, he had a flashforward.
👿
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Mark O’Mara just admitted that he can not find an expert to prove his clients LIES!
Here you go folks!
Click to access mot_for_evidentiary_hearing.pdf
I don’t believe his motion is sufficient to get an evidentiary heating because he does not support it with an affidavit from an expert who describes the technologies and avers that they are not generally accepted.
Insofar as a hearing is concerned, he only refers to the general foundational requirement for any expert on any subject. I’m sure BDLR will be prepared to cover that when he calls his witnesses.
O’Mara needs an expert to say there is no general acceptance and he does not have one.
This guy is in way over his head and does not know what he is doing.
LMAO he does that in all his motions
Omara will make a claim and accusation and then present nothing to back it up
Did he not learn in school when you write a report you write up the evidence and sources cited for the conclusion?
Fred, he’s desperate and ill-prepared. The ship is sinking faster than the Titanic.
He is truly in over his head. I don’t know him and know nothing about the law. I remember when he took over the case HLN reported that he is well known around that area and supposedly a great legal mind. He did some commentating on Casey Anthony if I’m not mistaken. It’s clear that he took on the case thinking that Fogens story was true, he figured there would be no trial, then he can go on and write his book or earn 6 figures doing what Mark Geragos et. al are doing.
I also think he was a fan of the treehouse/daily caller websites. He appears to be overly obsessed with the Martin family attorneys. And he is also too focused on the race/protests.
Who says the state will even call their listed experts in voice ID? Isn’t there a requirement for the court and the opposing side, to receive bios of the experts as well as what they intend to testify to?
Has O’Mara even got that from the state?
They are entitled to the expert’s written report and curriculum vitae or resume. I always asked for and received raw data and bench notes as well.
I always provided the prosecution with the same information regarding every expert witness whom I endorsed as a defense witness for trial.
With one exception, I did not provide and was not required to provide that information for an expert witness whom I did not endorse as a defense witness for trial.
The exception is a case where the defense is insanity or diminished capacity. Defense is required to disclose that information because only the defense has access to the defendant’s mind.
Call this one a ‘loco’ motion if O’Mara doesn’t have one scientist to challenge the validity of any of the voice ID methods?
Certainly! Which begs the question what was the point in bringing on West?
As an advisor/co-counsel his big contribution seems to be making a huge deal out of an immaterial statement, by a witness whose testimony is important, but not crucial. Seems like he would have been much better off advising O’Mara on how to write a motion without basic flaws that can meet the threshold of the courts requirements.
O’Mara: We’ve spent $300,000 on George Zimmerman and are desperate for more donations
Wednesday’s announcement signals that a December relaunch of the defense fund and promise for personally autographed thank you notes from Zimmerman has been a flop.
I’ve followed many a high profile case and never, ever, ever have I heard about the defense money problems…….Who the F really cares he’s a broke, Phat Phoolish murdering bird brain.
Note to Moron O’ Mara : Get a grip…….you took this dork for a client. Needless to say…you failed “Character Assessment” in Law School……..didn’t ya.
I can see that Appeal Now……the “We couldn’t afford a defense” Appeal……hell, Moron, file a Motion this week using that line.
I wonder if MOM doesn’t realize that how much cash a defendant has or does not have, is not a criteria for much of anything in criminal court? Now that MOM has taken that 40k office renovation, he won’t be able to claim that he needs to jettison his client because he can’t get paid. As a pro bono lawyer he wasn’t even entitled to that 40k office renovation, and I wonder if he won’t be ordered to return that money to the fund. GZ can certainly ask for it back, even after he’s convicted.
Of course MOM is trying to pass it off as “office improvements needed for trial”, but I doubt that the trial will prove those costs were necessary. Since the guilty verdict will be obtained with or without it either way. All MOM can do is hope that GZ is too stupid to demand the return of the funds. My guess is his father is not. So all MOM has is a loan.
GZ will neither be the first nor the last one to face murder charges without funds. MOM can whine all he wants
“I took this case Pro Bono”
“…my client is being billed at $400.00 an hour and $350.00 an hour and he’s running up a debt”
$40,000.00 ??? must be a hell of a printer !!
According to today’s Miami Herald, O’Mara filed a motion on Friday May 3rd, challenging the scientific validity being used by the state’s audio experts.
New post up:
The search of Trayvon Martin’s backpack in school was unreasonable and unlawful
Off topic– we learned today, for the first time since the Casey Anthony trial, what happened to cause her lawyer(s) to stop proceedings until the client could have a psych evaluation. It was all speculation publicly until now, but we hear why the call for the psych testing was called for by one of her lawyers in the middle of court. Client threw a tantrum in the side holding room, where even the judge in his area, could hear the screaming and foul language of the client. (link http://www.today.com/news/casey-anthony-judge-felt-shock-disbelief-not-guilty-verdict-6C9791042 )
One Perry comment that helped the client win her case, was her lawyer’s likeability, the jury responded to him well. O’Mara also hopes, obviously, to have repoire with the jury. Minimally they will know his face from his many media appearances in this case.
That was the first big social media case, the Trayvon Martin killing case is the second.
At least in the first case, the public could gain access to documents filed in the case, through the news media, who went to the court clerk’s office, paid for and obtained sunshine law filings.
This time, the documents are more easily and ‘free’ to the media at the defendant’s website, and that has been the primary source for documents since the early releases that media picked up themselves.
Anyone concerned that all the public documents are funneled through one single source back through the media, because, it’s a great move for the defense to control media’s access in this way, but what it does is sets up that website to then add editorials, or non-court document opinion pieces.
In a high profile case that extends beyond Sanford, few of the interested public can go to the courthouse and apply for documents as they become available, so the defense has access pretty much sewn up. (with the blessings of OS)
Cfnews13 has an article with their legal analyst Mark Nejame posted, and they direct link the GZlegal site also. (both NeJame and O’Mara represented parties in that ‘other’ case as well)
O’Mara’s problem? Binding case law re voice identification
In the case of The UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Tamara Jo SMITH, Defendant-Appellant, the United States Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit agreed with one of the expert witnesses on the State’s witness list in the case of the State of Florida v. Zimmerman – i.e. Dr. Hirotaka Nakasone – and made him salonfähig. This his huge, guys.
Facts
Tanya and Tamara Smith are identical twins who are commonly mistaken for one another. Some of their friends, however, could distinguish them by a small scar on Tanya’s forehead.
In their scheme, the two women posed as bank employees and telephoned banks authorizing them to make fictitious wire transfers of nonexistent funds. They then arranged for various individuals to pick up the money at transferee banks or at Western Union. These persons would keep a small portion for themselves and turn the bulk over to the twins.
A spectrographic voice identification expert, Dr. Hirotaka Nakasone, testified as an expert witness and voice examiner. He compared the recorded voices of Tanya and Tamara Smith to the recorded voice of the person who called the Harris Bank on November 23, 1984 and falsely identified herself as a bank employee attempting to arrange a wire transfer. He concluded that it was highly probable that this was Tanya Smith and highly probable that it was not Tamara Smith. He found that it was probable that Tanya, not Tamara, telephoned Northern Trust Bank on May 21 and 22, 1985. Dr. Nakasone found that it was probably Tamara, and probably not Tanya, who called the American National Bank regarding a separate wire, and probably Tanya, and probably not Tamara, who made another call to a New Jersey bank.
Tamara challenged this expert testimony. She alleged that spectrographic voice identification testimony is not generally accepted by the scientific community.
The Court considered and ruled as follows:
“(…) we hold that the district judge did not abuse his discretion in admitting the testimony. Sufficient evidence of the reliability of this technique was adduced at trial. Moreover, this technique is not, under the proper circumstances, likely to mislead the jury. We hold that such circumstances existed here.
The government presented ample evidence of the reliability of spectrographic voice identification at trial. In addition to describing the principles behind and the technique used to make spectrograms, Dr. Nakasone testified as to their reliability. He himself had performed spectrographic analysis and produced his own opinion thereon in 150 instances, even though he never before had testified as a voice identification expert in a court of law. In none of these cases had he been informed that he had made a misidentification.
Nakasone also testified as to studies performed in the field. He first discussed a study performed by Professor Oscar Tosi of Michigan State University in conjunction with the Michigan State Police from 1968 to 1970. Of the 35,000 comparisons made in this study, the error rate for false identifications was 2.4% and the error rate for false eliminations was about 6%. This study previously has been cited as authoritative by other federal courts of appeal. See, e.g., Williams, 583 F.2d at 1198; Baller, 519 F.2d at 465. A follow-up to that study conducted by Dr. Tosi involving only actual cases examined by trained voice examiners found no errors whatsoever.
Nakasone also discussed a more recent report published by the FBI in June, 1987 in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America. The cases in that report which were submitted to actual determinations yielded a .31% rate of false identifications and a .53% rate of false eliminations. Finally, Nakasone testified that variations, such as use of tapes not recorded under laboratory conditions and attempts by the speaker to disguise her voice, will increase the error rate of false eliminations. That is, instead of resulting in more false identifications, these variations will result in more false eliminations. (…).
We conclude that the district judge did not abuse his discretion in admitting Nakasone’s testimony into evidence. This testimony contained many of the indicia of reliability discussed by the Second Circuit in Williams, supra. A thorough examination of the record reveals both that this technique is not one-hundred percent infallible and that the entire scientific community does not support it. As we discuss above, however, neither infallibility nor unanimity is a precondition for general acceptance of scientific evidence under Frye. We also note, as the government points out in its brief, that spectrographic identification is similar to lay identification of voices, which is admissible in this circuit. See, e.g., United States v. Gironda, 758 F.2d 1201, 1218 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 474 U.S. 1004, 106 S.Ct. 523, 88 L.Ed.2d 456 (1985).
Since sufficient indicia of reliability were present in this case, it was proper for the district judge to let this evidence go to the jury, in order for it to make the ultimate determination as to the credibility of Nakasone’s testimony. Williams, 583 F.2d at 1200.
Interesting. Thanks!
Fascinating.
As a veteran of the DNA Wars in the late 80s and 90s, I can almost recite Frye word for word without having to look at the case.
The Seventh Circuit’s decision is not binding authority on a state trial court judge in Florida, so Judge Nelson can disregard the case. It’s not even binding authority in the Seventh Circuit anymore since the SCOTUS decided Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceutical Co., 509 U.S. 579 (1993).
The Frye Rule, which is based on Frye v. United States, 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir 1923) has been called the “counting heads” rule because the standard for admissibility is whether the technology is generally accepted in the relevant scientific community (i.e., audiologists).
General acceptance can be established by bringing in experts to testify that the technology is generally accepted among audiologists as capable of obtaining accurate and reliable results. A judge does not have to understand the technology to rule on the motion. She just needs to count heads to determine whether audiologists generally accept it.
I don’t know if spectrographic examination is generally accepted among audiologists. Whonoze and Papa no doubt have a better understanding of that than I do. I suspect that it is in that the technology is used all over the world and its strengths and weaknesses are well understood. Problems with the technology will go to weight, not admissibility.
My guess is that the technology is generally accepted and Judge Nelson will allow the evidence to come in.
Thanks, Searching. Very interesting case. I’m pleased that the State is using one of the best: Nakasone.
MOTION FOR EVIDENTIARY HEARING in Zimmerman case.
Click to access mot_for_evidentiary_hearing.pdf
Thanks, SG2. Here we gooooo !!
My version of this Motion…..and you guys know me by now.
“Holy shit Your Honor. If you allow evidence that helps convict my client based on anything, that is prejudicial.”
“If any voice analyst testifies it’s Mr. Martin screaming, that’s just not fair.”
“So, lets skip the trial and just let my client off with a warning. However, let me know prior to said warning so I can step up his medication as you don’t want to be on the receiving end of his wrath”
So when does the “Don’t believe DNA Motion” get filed ???
: D Might be coming soon.
I can’t wait for that one. Followed by the “It wasn’t my clients bullet” Motion.
Omara’s argument will be that the DNA mathematics of 1 in 6 or 7 billion is not accurate enough to pinpoint Fogen
That sounds like an O’ Maranizm….
Hahaha… Racer: first time I looked it seemed you had written: O’marzapam, (isn’t that something close to a psychotic drug?) hahaha… 😆
You almost have to wonder if he’s on something also.
Hey maybe Pfizer will name a drug after MOM: Omarzapam hcl. hahaha!
Options
Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump · 274 like this
12 hours ago ·
So Omara is scared of the 911 scream tape. He is trying to get a hearing on the scream tape because he does not want anyone testifying as to the screams and their description. He claims the state and the defense witnesses can not agree which is a load of crap.
1) Witness 1 – says it was a kid making weird noises
2) Witness 2 – says she saw and heard a chase and someone screaming “No No No” which was ended by a gun shot
3) Mary Cutcher and her roommate testify that a kid was squealing in pain and making strange noises, which was ended by a gunshot. They saw Fogen simply rise to his feet off the victim, Trayvon, and then appeared uninjured and worried as to what he just did.
4) Witness 18 states that Fogen is the aggressor and that she saw the whole thing from the confrontation onward. She states that she heard what is described as a young boy screaming for help and which was ended by a gunshot. She saw the defendant simply rise to his feet off the victim, Trayvon. W18 also says she can say for certain how the struggle moved as she saw the whole thing and can pinpoint it out.
5) Witness 3 says she saw a man in a white shirt on top of another person and she heard screams for help which were ended with a gun shot. She says that after she saw Fogen’s mugshot that she believes that Fogen was on top of Trayvon when the shot occurred.
6) Witness 6 first stated on a 911 call that he saw wrestling and then the black guy was shot. He then later claimed when interviewed by police, he thought he saw a man in red underneath the black guy, like in MMA, and he assumed the man in red was screaming. When FDLE interviewed him again, w6 then claimed he was not sure who was screaming anymore, and he believes now that Trayvon was just trying to pin Fogen on the ground and that Trayvon could have been screaming for help. The witness sticks to his final story of the pinning as he says he heard no striking noises. There is also no DNA transfer whatsoever on Trayvon’s hands, arms, sleeves, or cuffs, which scientifically says Trayvon never attacked Fogen like he claims.
7) w11 captured the screams on a 911 call. The screams sound like a kid screaming for help and yelling “Get Off”, which was ended by a gunshot.
8) Jeremy testifies that he heard screams for help which were ended by a gunshot.
9) Experts have testified that it is not Fogen screaming for help
10) Fogen, when he listens to the tape, states that the screams do not sound like him.
11) Sybrina testifies that it does indeed sound like her son.
It sounds pretty much in agreement that it was either Trayvon screaming for help…
So let me get this right. With all of the evidence, and you did not even bring in forensics………..it really must suck to be Fogen about now ??
The fact that several witnesses say Fogen get off of Trayvon and there is no mention that he pushed Trayvon off of him is real bad news for PhatFogenPhoole.
Can anyone point to a mention that Trayvon took lots of pictures with his cell phone? I just read a remark that I didn’t respond to because I was doing something else. I wouldn’t want to miss this factoid at all, if true.
I read that here also yesterday and I read it somewhere else last year about late summer. I have not seen any proof of it, but lets face facts…..kids take pictures on cell phone cameras all the time, so it’s certainly possible.
For sure I agree, kids are well versed in picture taking with their phones. But, while I don’t doubt the story, I just wonder if there’s some foundation for it, or if it’s just conjecture. It doesn’t appear to be a theory, since, to be a theory there would have to be some argument offered in support of it. Someone threw this out there and it’s certainly something to think about. But nothing more yet.
@lonnie
the statement that trayvon took a lot of pictures or video came to us from det. serino, i believe, in an interview with the defendant, i cannot remember which one though.
the other thing is t hat i am not positive that it is a true statement, since officers can an do lie during interrogations to get information they think is important, so proceed with caution.
Okay, I’ll keep and eye out.
MOM is working feverishly at drafting a motion to exclude all the evidence against GZ, on the grounds that no one can agree on it. He believes that any evidence that is controversial would be prejudicial without being probative if it is not completely exculpatory.
His authority is Hitler Stalin Mussolini -vs- The Alliance et seq circa 1945, wherein people bearing evidence contrary to axis of evil were summarily executed. MOM hopes to have Judge Nelson re-impose the same rules Torquemada had available to make O’Mara look less like Don Quixote and more like a substantial player at court. Be warned.
I can see him having his office staff say “Seig Heil” when he walks in……maybe it’s undisputed. After all, he does that Hitler / Mussolini look back & forth during his many interviews.
I was watching a Hitler film yesterday and I noticed something. Since Hitler used these rather emphatic gesticulations, to people who couldn’t hear him clearly, he would have seemed to be making some very forceful points. Especially when people cheered so loudly.
Hitler’s words (translated of course) don’t impress me as him being a very articulate or silver tongued speaker. But a really shallow loudmouth with weak perceptive powers. What carried him forward was the politics behind the scenes, the speeches were nothing but garbage window dressing events.
Go ahead and watch him deliver a speech and see how far off his most vigorous gestures are from his most emphatic points. His hands are “going a mile a minute” when what he’s saying is maudlin and mundane. But it makes his speeches appear to be full of fire and vigor, to people either in the back rows or up front but not listening very closely. In short, he had what he needed when he had “the right people” telling everyone what a great man he was. After that nothing else mattered, because most people don’t evaluate things for themselves.
Even here in “the land of the free and home of the brave” we have a very hard time getting people to evaluate things for themselves, and are instead looking for pols to be endorsed by “the right people” rather than have to convince and persuade on their own.
I’d sure like to know where that 300k came in from for foggen though. I’m still not so sure that it was random individuals.
I can tell you for fact that 100 K is from 3 big sources. 25K from 1 source 2X and 25 K each from the other 2. That’s why he had over 100K so fast. O’ Mara stated that the average individual was donating 20$ and most were repeat donators.
I figured this out mathematically and rubbed it in the noses of the Zidiots on HP….he has about 2,500 people who donated, that’s all.
Yeah, about 2,500 people. That’s a pretty tightly compacted group! When this case had gained a national spotlight, the donations should have been coming in from all over, nationwide. That should have resulted in much more money coming in over an even longer period of time. Instead it’s all compressed into this tight little slice of time.
To the politically astute that screams “bundler software”. It’s the software that orgs use to get around regs making large donations illegal. When these organizations want to put a quick couple of hundred thousand in someone’s hands, they have these huge membership lists and software that sends random small amounts in the names of large numbers of people.
LMAO I can already place a bet that Omara will be trying to discredit the witnesses by claiming their ears do not work properly orthe jurors and judges ears do not work properly
then when ear doctors come in and say everyone’s ears are working properly, Omara will then have the court go over their education and credentials
@Jun:
All of the witnesses who have come forward, can testify as to seeing Fogen or hearing him meancing Trayvon Martin. Fogen, O’Moron and West should be very scared of Mary Cutcher and Selma Lamilla because they don’t appear to be intimidated by speaking out. These two brave and courageous women spoke out and stated that the SPD did not appear to be the least bit interested in what they had to report or what they had witnessed and some of the officers of the SPD were trying to get them to change their story to assist Fogen. They did not receive any phone calls from the SPD. They had to contact the SPD.
Selma stated that the behavior of Fogen was bizarre. (We all know that is normal behavior for him). Fogen kept pacing back and forth and running his hands through his head like he knew he has Fuc*** up royally this time. (I thought his head was sp briuised and to bloody due to the head bashing)??? Selma and Mary stated that Fogen looked like he was searching for some kind of weapon. Then Selma said that he kept patting the back of the victim who was on the ground either dead or dying. He certainly was not trying to help this kid by attempting to perform CPR. When she inquired of what he was doing, and asking “What’s going on over there?” x 3, Fogen didn’t respond. He only responded after he broke out of his delusional state, and asked them to call the police.”
I’m sure he was very disappointed to find no weapon on Trayvon. Maybe his nose got a bit out of joint when he realized he shot an unarmed young man. 😉
@Jun
I saw your post in my news feed on FB and I meant to post it on 3Chicspolitico but got I distracted. I’ll post it now! Thanks!
It is evidence! And like any other evidence, it doesn’t matter who agrees with it or about it or not. The jury gets to hear the evidence and make their own evaluation of it. If either side thinks they can provide expert testimony, that will help the jurors decide what to think about that evidence, they are welcomed to do so and try.
Heck, the next thing you know MOM will be trying to exclude the autopsy report, because no one can agree on that either1 Hahaha! The defense is becoming a joke! Great material for a SNL skit.
We’ve all thought we’ve seen the worst and then they stoop to an all time low. I can see something like this…..
Moron O “….well ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I think it’s undisputed that my client had a broken nose, massive head injuries and that Black Dynamite Slim ambushed my client and he had no choice but to draw his weapon. Now I know the Prosecution proved his permit was invalid, and that my client wasn’t the one screaming, that my client wasn’t standing his ground, that my client got out of his truck and sort of, well…….not exactly according to the definition of followed, but went in the same direction as Mr. Martin.”
“The State also proved Mr. Martin had no wounds on his body other than a gunshot wound, but what does that matter? The State proved this…..and the State proved that…….but all of the evidence is biased and so harmful to my clients case. Lets face it, if any of you were charged with murder……I’d let you lie about it”
“…but lets face it, my client has suffered so much stress he can’t turn a Cheeseburger down anywhere, and…….well a pizza either, but the stress he’s been put through for no real reason, is, well, I think he should be allowed his freedom.”
“You see, it is, and I think it’s undisputed, that this last 15 or so months have been like a prison to him, so, since he’s such a decent American…….lets just call it even”
Some preposterous rambling is coming……It’s undisputed !!!
Jury will tell O’Haha: “Your client is indisputably guilty!” Bye bye foggenfoolephattie
I believe it’s “…undisputed…” that it’s just about over but the clapping.
LMAO If Trayvon did take a pic of Fogen while being stalked and there are premade injuries on Fogen
That’s quite a blow, like a combination of being kicked by Bruce Lee and punched by Tyson in his prime
Yeah and then turned over to Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwartznegger’s Terminator “Hasta la vista Bay Bee!!!” 😆
Rachael,
I agree that GZ might have been looking for a weapon, but maybe more likely a “tool” to prove Trayvon was about to “commit a break in felony” and he stopped it. That would protect him under SYG in FL.
When he didn’t find it, that is when he put his hand in his hair and “paced back and forth” and had to reconcile the events to his story.
He shot quickly feeling quite sure he had the “suspect” of all the neighborhood angst. I think he also convinced W6 of that as well which is why his story initially went that way.
I also think the police report that said he was “immediately” in handcuffs is bull as we can clearly see GZ on the phone when his head was pictured.
The weird thing is that his head had dried blood on it already, when the elapsed time (according to GZ) was under 2 minutes. I do not think blood clots that fast.
I am believing that he hit his head in the same location he got those weird scratches on his head. With no zippers or DNA in the nails…those weird from an interaction with Trayvon. I suspect he was crouched in the bushes while Trayvon was talking on the phone. He probably lost his balance and fell against the stucco of the apartments. That could have easily made that cut.
“…and he stopped it. That would protect him under SYG in FL.”
Actually……with all due respect….I love ya….but he would have to catch Trayvon in the act and he still could not draw his weapon, let alone shoot him.
For SYG to be used Fogen had to be in imminent fear of death, not in the act of catching someone he thinks, might, at some point, commit a crime.
Yep, stumbling around drunk… But the trouble is blood takes 6 minutes to clot and under those conditions nearly an hour to dry.
There’s no evidence that Trayvon committed a felony and it specifically states a “forcible felony” and Fogen was not authorized to act in any manner
Fogen and Omara are proven liars so the likelihood that they will be believed is fairly bare minimal at the most, I am guessing
People who have done what Fogen did with the exception of the killing, have been arrested and convicted for false imprisonment, aggravated stalking, and aggravated assault, because you cant’s just attack people because you are suspicious
The only time the court has allowed citizen arrest is if there is strong evidence of a forcible felony and in this case with Fogen there is none
All there is evidence of is Trayvon going to the store, walking back home, trying to runaway from the stalker aka Fogen, then being attacked and killed by Fogen once he caught up to Trayvon
Of the picture of GZ bloody nose shot does it seems like he smiling
go to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-voice-experts-20130506,0,7663818.story
Yes, corners of his lips are turned up, but we have to remember the extreme wide angle of that lens, and the distortions of the image. The camera angle was from above and the curve at the lower part of the photo would make the image curve upwards– a possible explanation.
But good point as it raises another issue. If your nose is broken and breathing is difficult with blood and swelling, then you assist your breathing through your mouth, and if that were the case, strange that he’s got his mouth completely closed, not open for even slightly to breathe.
BINGO!!!
There is something odd and off about that whole picture.
Looks like he is puckering up. Wild look in the eyes.
It Ain’t gonna happen, Mark ‘OMara!
George Zimmerman attorneys: State voice experts may be using phony science
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-voice-experts-20130506,0,7663818.story
Attorneys for murder suspect George Zimmerman are challenging the scientific validity of state voice recognition experts.
In a new motion, defense attorney Mark O’Mara wrote that those unnamed experts may be using phony science, so the judge should hold a hearing, listen to evidence about how they did their work then decide whether to allow them to testify at Zimmerman’s trial.
The motion, filed Friday but made public today, is almost certainly related to a much-played 911 recording made Feb. 26, 2012, the night Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17 year old in Sanford.
A neighbor had called police to report a fight outside. During her call, a voice in the background can be heard crying for help then 40 seconds later, there’s a loud bang – the gunshot – and the crying stops.
That piece of evidence will be one of the most important at Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial, slated to begin in Sanford June 10.
all you have to do Mark ‘OMara! is show us the right way
Doesn’t MOM need an expert witness to dispute this and say this science is phony? And if so, then what is the problem?
But this part really says it all (to me anyway):
A neighbor had called police to report a fight outside. During her call, a voice in the background can be heard crying for help then 40 seconds later, there’s a loud bang – the gunshot – and the crying stops.
…And the defendant says that he believe that he missed. Therefore he must believe that his attacker is still alive and still in the process of killing him… yet his response to this ongoing “immediate threat of death and/or great bodily injury” is: to stop screaming immediately in sync with the missed shot and holster his weapon.
Yeah! Right! This is going to have some impact on the jury!
GZ had better make sure that he’s got enough money for his commissary account!
As usual MOM will fail to backup accusation with factual base evidence. DENIED!!!
@Truthseeker
CHECK!
No Way……O’ Mara……blowing smoke…….Geeez, I’m shocked !!!
And I’d say he’s inhaling a good portion of it.
All MOM knows is divorce/family court where “dueling allegations” win the day.
So as the page loads I wonder “Is it Jeff Weiner or Rene Stutzman?” And Rene Stutzman it is! Bet old RS writes own headlines!
Will someone post a link to the new motion? Thank you.
37 days before fogen starts the transformation from fogen to fogone
Tick Tock
HOODIES UP
LLMPapa keeps GZ reminded.
fogone & fogotten
“Oh but the only reason they’ll convict him is to avoid the riots”
They don’t convict him?……..think I might be taken a trip to Fla.
MMpat — Hope Fogen, so eager to tell his side, is enjoying your count-down as much as I am.
Race…..here’s one for U to rewrite…..
“A message to you fogen”
Good one MMP and, Fogen’s only future is hopefully the rest of his miserable OBESE life behind bars!
BTW, he is definitely a RUDE BOY and Jamaica wouldn’t have his ass.
Okay !!
Stop your messing around (ah-ah-ah)
Better think of your future (ah-ah-ah)
Time you straighten right out (ah-ah-ah)
Creating problems in town (ah-ah-ah)
Fo – gen
A message to you, Fo – gen
A message to you
Stop your screwing around (ah-ah-ah)
Time you straighten right out (ah-ah-ah)
Better think of your future (ah-ah-ah)
‘Cuz youll wind up in jail (ah-ah-ah)
Fo – gen
A message to you, Fo – gen
A message to you
Stop your messing around (ah-ah-ah)
Better think of your future (ah-ah-ah)
Time you straighten right out (ah-ah-ah)
Creating problems in town (ah-ah-ah)
Fo – gen
A message to you, Fo – gen
A message to you, Fo – gen
Oh, its a message to you, Fo – gen
Yeah, its a message to you, Fo – gen
A mesage to you, Fo – gen
A message to you Fo – gen
Here’s a mesaage for you Fo – gen
Hear our message to you, Fo – gen
Something like that ??????
Dat’ll wurk 🙂
Two Tone forever 🙂
Mission Accomplished earlier
It’s actually hilarious. O’Mara’s position is based on a weird assumption that if evidence doesn’t look good for the defense, it should not be used. “Since the defense experts and the prosecution experts cannot agree, we shouldn’t have any experts” sounds so stupid it’s hard to imagine a lawyer suggested it. Also, if the jurors could “decide” without experts, why couldn’t they “decide” WITH experts? Oh it’s inconceivable that O’Mara would fix his mouth (fix his computers) to suggest such an idiotic thing.
Furthermore, who is SCREAMING is not of real probative value in terms of whether or not the killing was murder or self-defense. It is a very suggestive side issue, yes. But does it prove self-defense if the scream issued from Fogen or murder if it issued from Trayvon Martin? No. The forensics will probably prove Murder-2, of course.
Fogen’s voice in the background WHILE the other voice screams, demanding answers to some questions or cursing at the victim, THAT would prove Murder in my opinion.
@Malisha, that is what MOM & Co. Are afraid of. The intertigation proves fogen killed TM in cold blood. FT even said if TM had just answered the questions…WTF I M convinced that FT wad the one TM was asking for help.
Interesting, truthseeker: So you’re suggesting old Taffy might have been standing there all along, with Trayvon appealing to him for help??? If so, that would explain some of Taffy’s post-murder remarks about how Trayvon didn’t answer questions and about wishing they could be “bringing that boy back.”
And if so, could it be that he’ll eventually be charged as an accessory — once Fogen is tucked away in the pen?
@Trained Observer:
Interesting. I always believed that FT was there as well. He ran his mouth right after everything transpired and the way he spoke, as if he was standing there. “It T had just answered the questions…. If he had just stated that he was here visiting his mother……..(I was like visiting his mother? His mother is in Miami birdbrain racist)??! TM definitely was not going to receive any help from this racist demagogue! He hates black people with a passion!
This is also not the first time that their have been complaints about Fogen rolling up on black males and not idenifying himself and wanting answers to his questions.
” If he had just stated that he was here visiting his mother……..(I was like visiting his mother? His mother is in Miami birdbrain racist)??! ”
Taaffe being the same caliber as RZ jr (a 2 watt bulb) this could be because Trayvon called out for his mom. Taaffe then jumps to the conclusion mom can hear him from there……I’ve had that thought since Taaffe started his motor mouth running. Very little was known when he wanted his 15 minutes of fame.
Racerrodig:
FT is a desperate man who wanted his fame alright. At the expense of a dead teenager, and I still believe that he was there that night! Why Fogen is remaining silent is a mystery to me. When I hear his uneducated, racist A&& speak, I turn off the video. I cannot stand this man! This is a man who lost two sons!! I wouldn’t wish that hurt on any parent, not even him. He even denounced his daughter who is in the military who spoke out against him in regard to his support of Fogen! My condolences to her and her mother.
What is wrong with FT? FT is a miserable man and that is why he drinks. FT, RZ Jr. and Fogen. What do they all have in common? They are all alcoholics! Interesting isn’t it? For Fogen to align himself with this good for nothing sick man is beyond me. You are known by your associations and that speaks for itself. RZ Jr. is a complete dummy. I don’t what he does for a living but he is another one who is only out for fame while he goes around demonizing TM! When I hear his whiny voice, I take my remote and turn it to something else! I cannot stand him either! The entire family is sick!
DAMN…..for a minute there I thought I was gonna be in trouble….
Thank “god” I’m just a drunk 🙂
HOODIES UP
Well said…..Losers all of them…..
TS66. And Skank Crappee may just be the mysterious man wearing the white T-shirt. Damn I hope so! I’d love to see his 200 proof azz sent to a prison teaming with balaak thugs!
He couldn’t answer questions he did not know the answers to.
Experts from each side disagreeing with one another is a function of almost every trial which includes experts. Attorneys call experts “whores,” and call conflicting expert testimony “a battle of the whores.”
Florida’s standard for expert testimony is a little higher than that in the Fedverse; but both sides will qualify their experts easily.
It seems to me that if Mr. O’Mara thought his expert(s) were at all convincing, he’d be pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of creating doubt. So, by inference, it also seems that he’s expecting that the prosecution’s expert(s) are significantly stronger. On the other hand, it’s (barely) possible that he’s playing possum and trying to look weaker than he actually is.
You never know about these things; and I think you make a mistake to presume Mr. O’Mara is incompetent. A prosecutor who made decisions on that basis would be foolish.
Mr. O’Mara has done a LOT of trial work, and it’s not likely he believes he can exclude conflicting testimony just because it conflicts. He’s certainly aware of the first principle that the raison d’etre for “fact finders” whether juries or judges, is resolving evidentiary conflicts.
If I were doing the same thing, it would be a spaghetti against the wall approach, because: (a) A pre-trial hearing would be an opportunity to hear how good the prosecution’s evidence will look; (b) Could provide some insight into how to conduct cross at trial; (c) “Wotthehell, what could it hurt?” (d) Might influence prospective jurors to believe Mr. Zimmerman isn’t getting a fair shake; and (e) Create a record for appeal, also predicated on the idea of “Wotthehell, what could it hurt?”
But I wouldn’t be doing the same thing.
BDL
Let me add that the Florida standard for admitting scientific evidene is “Frye,” while the Federal standard is Daubert.
Frye requires that the methodology on which a scientific opinion is based be “sufficiently established to have gained general acceptance;” while Daubert only requires that it “rests on a reliable foundation.”
Daubert is good because it’s friendlier to cutting-edge methodology and bad because judges who aren’t scientific allow fringe-ish stuff. Frye — vice versa.
Let me further add, that as soon as I hit the “submit” button I started thinking that with Frye (also the standard here in California) the defense might legitimately hope to exclude some of the prosecution’s expert testimony on the basis that the methodology used was not “generally accepted.”
But I don’t know enough about audiology in general or the specific methodologies at issue to possess anything resembling a clue, much less create an informed opinion of my own.
I expect that the prosecution will get its experts qualified, because that’s something the prosecution usually manages to do; and not because of any claim to knowledge about the particular science.
Bottom line: The prosecution’s motion is not as poorly taken as you might think if you’re not familiar with the Frye standard. And even if a motion to exclude loses at trial, it could still provide fertile grounds for an appeal.
BDL
You make valid points, Boar. But these questions remain unanswered:
a. Does O’Mara have any voice identification experts?
b. If yes, who are they?
c. Is O’Mara allowed to hide his expert witnesses and keep their names secrete?
If I am not mistaken, O’Mara has not listed any experts witnesses. The deadline doing that has expired – after several extensions. And O’Mara may not call any unlisted expert witness to testify at trial. Correct me anyone where I may be wrong.
I could be wrong, but If I remember correctly, the defense has to know what the experts would be testifying to, before even requesting a Frye hearing, they can’t just assume. Have they gotten any of the prosecutions experts reports?
I would think that they would need them before this evidentiary hearing too.
BDL –
Thank you. I was wondering the same thing. If seems the “audiology” industry is constantly in motion on procedures, but I believe I remember that two of the experts used very different methods. One used a software approach that is more controversial and progressive, and the other used a manual approach that was more conservative and accepted. They both came to the same conclusion with strong preference leaning to “teens” voice. I believe at the time this made press, neither had heard samples of Trayvon’s voice, just GZ’s.
I was thinking O’Mara might be successful at eliminating one of them (using the more progressive approach), but since they are both credentialed and one used a conservative, more accepted approach, O’Mara might be hard pressed to exclude all of them under the same standard as the approaches were vastly different.
Now, if there are two different voices in the tapes that came out in enhancement, I suspect any dialog that showed an interrogation vs. a loud screaming would be more powerful than the voice analysis itself.
I also think that when the scream “Momma” is heard, the jury will have major doubts about GZ’s claims. To hear it, all you have to do is find a way to crank up the volume a wee bit. And, of course, George is heard in there interrogating Trayvon, and that’s going to have a very powerful effect on the jurors perceptions. All of which I’m very sure MOM is aware of already and he’s discussed this with GZ and this is now what they’re sweating bullets over and is why they had to shy away from any SYG/immunity hearing.
MOM is already assuring GZ of his intent to appeal after conviction and trying to pump some morale raising juice into it all by making the claim that it will be a vaunted SYG appeal, which holds so much promise for gun toting racists, even though now they’re beginning to cool down on it.
where is this second voice doing interrogation coming from? I have not heard it
PS> and I did not hear the word ‘Momma’ either. is there a cleaned up recording somewhere?
GZlegalcase just published a new motion. They KNOW it is NOT GZ’s voice on the 911 call. Justice for Trayvon Martin
Oh really.
Three words
Dipshit…..or Deep Shit
@mmp
Either one, they’re pronounced the same in Peru.
Hahahahaha!! So, West asks Judge Nelson for the State to acknowledge that voice identification is a discoverable issue, but now they want to prevent expert testimony on voice identification. And, they want the court to determine that through an evidentiary hearing. (SMH)
I anxiously await the State’s response.
Don’t they first need the experts report to know what the expert is going to testify about concerning any scientific testimony? And shouldn’t the defense request the Frye hearing only then?
We used to have motions filed by deadline before the pre-scheduled hearing date in this case, hearings scheduled and time set aside.
Judge Nelson is no longer doing this and last hearing, scolded the lawyers for not filing motions to take advantage of her pre-scheduled hearing dates (and we know the defense is the only side to publicly complain in the media about Judge Nelson when she cancelled hearing time as no side responded with motions ahead of time.
If fogen confessed to his lawyers how does this effect the defense.I mean do they still have to go on like he didn’t confess or do they advise him to take a plea.
Good question.
Even if a client admits to his lawyer that he committed the crime charged, he still has a right to plead not guilty, to be presumed innocent, and to force the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Despite the admission of guilt, which is protected from disclosure by the attorney-client privilege, the lawyer still has an obligation to represent the client and win the trial.
The lawyer cannot assist the client to testify falsely, however. That would constitute an ethical violation.
I have been in this situation and won trials. I avoided the ethical problem by persuading the client not to testify, explaining that he would create an ethical problem forcing me to withdraw if he did.
Zimmerman is not known for listening. It’s his way or else.(Unfortunately Trayvon got the or else.) If he wants to testify i don’t think there will be anything they could do to stop him.
Hahaha… Of course they have to try, but there’s no reason they have to try very hard, just be ready to clear out really fast when the verdict comes back.
I for one, expect that if GZ takes the stand, it will be quite a spectacle to see and hear the jurors drawing sharp breaths, gasping aloud and possibly even fainting at some of his aggravated catastrophic stupidity. Deliberations will end even before they begin!
Mr Leatherman thank you so much for answering my question.It is amazing you won even though the your client confessed to you..I’m thinking you were able to discredit the prosecution witnesses and to me Omara doesn’t hold a candle to you.Perhaps the defense has told fogen they know it’s not him screaming so they have to try and throw out the scream experts,witnesses or maybe they are letting their supporters down gradually.I’m confused by their logic and think Omara should keep his mouth shut.How far can a lawyer go to defend a client can they spread falsehoods if they know they are falsehoods.
@ Professor,
Re: limits of reciprocal discovery
O’Mara claims to have consulted a lot of experts who came to conflicting results regarding who uttered the 40-second terrified shriek on the 911- tape.
If I am not mistaken, O’Mara did not list any experts as witnesses nor has he provided any reports from those experts to the State as part of reciprocal discovery. I am thinking that O’Mara, if he indeed did contract experts who did some analysis for the defense, may have committed serious discovery violations.
On the other hand, one might argue that the right not to incriminate oneself would also include not providing the State with expert analysis/report that may prove defendant’s guilt. One possible question that arises from there is this one: to what extent are the analysis and reports produced by experts hired by the defense regarding the 911-tape protected by the 5th Amendment?
Remember when Joan Baes said they have a very weak case with onlly
2 things going for them? One witness and the calls for help on tape.
Well that witness recanted as we know but even if he were to sorta kinda recant again he never recanted the lie he told each time he was interviiewed how he saw GZ put his gun on the ground and heard him say with his hands raised in the air,(paraphrasing)
“My gun is over there on the ground and I shot him”
when the cops arrived.
This witness shoul be impeached right?
Depends on whether W6 testifies and what he says, if he testifies.
Based on the photo of the back of the defendant’s head taken by W13, where you can see the defendant holding a cell phone to his ear, I have suspected for a long time that the defendant called W6 after the shot and told him to tell the cops that he saw Trayvon straddling the defendant and raining down punches MMA style.
O’Mara has rarely mentioned that photo. I get the definite impression that he knows something about it that’s extremely damaging to the defendant’s case.
Given, the extremely odd coincidence that, other than the defendant, W6 is the only witness who claimed to have seen that happen — a story that he has since retracted — I believe his false story corroborated the defendant’s story because the defendant told him to say that.
In other words, I do not believe that their false stories matched due to a coincidence.
If I’m right, the phone records will verify the call and W6 will confirm my theory when he testifies at trial.
I agree with you that w6’s statements are suspicious. But based on the 911 reports, it appears w6 was on the phone with 911 at the time GZ was making his phonecall.
We’ve had some disussions, trying to piece together how much time Osterman and Shellie spend at the scene. The vehicle tag for Shellie’s car took place around 8:30 pm. GZ’s car at 8:47 pm.
Osterman has a load demonstrable lies in his book. But if you put the pieces together, they may have been hanging out and chatting up with the neighbors, till close to 9 pm.
Profeessor, if it comes out at trial, that W6 actually lied because the defendant told him to say to LE, can he be charged with obstruction of justice? after all if he lied as to what he saw because, Fogen told him what to say, he should be charged with something.
Even though he recanted his first statement, he still lied on the victim in this case and, it’s a possibility he was told to do just that by the defendant. perjury comes to mind as well if he was under oath when he said that. I believe there a quite a few witnesses who are not telling the truth about everything that they saw and heard that night.
Also, Frank Taaffe imo is in this up to his red drunken eyeballs and, he is the one imo who these people are in fear of if they tell everything they know.
I think you have it. I believe most of the residents were afraid of Fogen because they knew he was armed and nuts. His racist rhetoric was probably well known.
Big mouth Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe…..well, he’s pretty much shown it all with his interviews.
He could be charged with giving false information to a police officer conducting an official investigation.
He may have been promised that he would not be charged, if he agreed to tell the truth and that might be why he recanted that silly MMA style story.
If such an agreement were struck, the prosecution would have been required to notify the defense about it. Failure to do so would be a Brady violation.
I can say this with 100% certainty. The Phone Records = Gateway to Hell.
@Ay I was wondering about that photo and the cordial handshake they gave each other. Did that get any play in blogosphere?
Makes me wonder if they, he and West are playing good cop/bad cop? I thought it was interesting that MOM didnt think DDs lack of a hospital visit was a big deal. And then West apparently decided to exploit it for the cameras. I also wonder if they are in complete agreement with charade. Something to keep a eye on.
I’ve often wondered too about how OM and West operate together.
Rule 999
This case is getting beyond weird and bizarre. O’Mara is the first person to enter the 40-second terrified shriek on 911-tape into evidence. O’Mara is the one and only person who has so far introduced the 40-second terrified shriek on 911-tape to official judicial proceedings (first bond hearing). O’Mara proceeded to play that tape in court before the Judge (Judge Lester) for the whole world to hear and bear witness and claimed that it was GZ screaming for his life (in an effort to show GZ’s complete innocence and the political nature of the State’s case). O’Mara called RZ Sr. to the stand to confirm before the world that it was GZ screaming. Time and time again Mr. West stood before Judge Nelson declaring ad nauseam that it was GZ uttering the 40-second terrified shriek on 911-tape while Trayvon was landing deadly blows to his face and head – non-stop!
Now O’Mara wants the same 40-second terrified shriek on 911-tape excluded from the proceedings? Is that even thinkable? Well, yes, i.e. pursuant to “Rule 999 of The O’Mara Weird Rules of Criminal Procedure”. When this Rule is applied, the results are weird and bizarre.
On a serious note though, I think O’Mara is trying to use the evidentiary hearing to get message out to HIS public that:
a. the ship is sinking;
b. there will be no trial;
c. the defense will be negotiating the terms of a plea deal with the State.
GZ het would plead guilty to 2nd degree murder in exchange for (d) keeping the rest of the evidence sealed, (e) no federal hate crime charges filed against him and (f) dropping the perjury charge against Shellie. And that, ladies and gentlemen, would be another exercise in futility.
@SearchingMind. As I listened to O’Mara’s interview, what he said (my paraphrase) is that none of the expert witnesses on voice analysis agree that it is GZ screaming. What he wants is to have the jury listen to the tape without benefit of expert testimony.
@ Xena
O’Mara’s assertions in that interview are at best convoluted. He mixes up the opinions of expert and civilian witness in a way that one cannot say exactly which opinions are from expert witnesses and which ones from civilian witnesses. Anyways, O’Mara clearly alluded to “a number of experts out there” with different opinions and modalities regarding the 911-tape. Some of the said experts are – according to O’Mara – on the side of the defense. Which experts is O’Mara talking about? O’Mara has not listed any expert and may not list one anymore. Has O’Mara contracted any experts? If yes, is he not obliged provide the State with the summary of their reports as part of reciprocal discovery?
I will be back soon. Let me go first and read the new Motion. It is going to be a loooong hot summer.
@SearchingMind.
Yes, I noticed that too. It’s civilian citizens, (some on his side) who are all over the place.
Oh, so:
“Tracy Martin said he couldn’t be SURE it was Trayvon”
“Robert Zimmerman Sr. said he COULD be SURE it was Fogen”
Prosecution experts say the scream was Trayvon;
Defense experts do not exist but they cannot agree;
Seven leprechauns voted on the thing and it came out 4 to 3 that it was either Trayvon, Fogen, or someone else;
equals —
“Let the jury decide.”
Um…I didn’t get that. Can we go over that again?
As if those jurors are not going to be able to tell it is a terrified teen screaming for his life.
@Xena, that is the voice of a terrified kid screaming on that 911 tape all damn day long and, this attorney (if one can call him that) knows that it is and, in my heart of hearts I believe he has been told that by an expert and, this is why he wants it thrown out.
This man (if one can call him that) is as sneaky as they come and he also knows his client murdered an innocent kid in cold blood. O’mara should be ashamed of himself for trying to taint a possible jury pool and for all of the other underhanded things that they have done in this case. the most egregious of all, is the fact that they have been taking advice from the CDH and acting on some of it. whoever this sundance is, he should be facing some charges of his own.
That tape will not be excluded he knows it wont.
I wonder if, constitutionally, a defendant can enter into a plea that involves charges against someone else in a different case. It would not seem a good precedent to set, would it? Criminal charges should be between the state and the defendant. PERIOD.
SearchingMind,
The prosecution doesn’t have many reasons to offer a bargain other than certainty. While the stregth of the prosecution’s case, the publicity surrounding the matter, and the general principle that “justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done,” argue strongly for proceeding to trial.
From the outside it looks as though a negotiated plea is less likely than trial.
If Mr. Zimmerman is tried and convicted by the State of Florida, it’s incredibly unlikely that federal charges of any sort would be filed against him. Even if he was acquitted, as long as there was no glaringly obvious miscarriage of justice, it’s highly unlikely that Federal charges would be filed.
BDL
What about charges against him for a hate crime? IMO this was exactly that, a HATE crime!
I disagree with you on keeping Fogen’s sealed information sealed because, they have made a big deal out of taking Trayvon’s phone apart to see what is on it and, they know what’s on Fogens so, it should not remain sealed IMO plea deal or not. unseal the bigots information. they have also called W8 out to be a liar in front of the world so, let’s see what they are hiding from the world about Fogen.
If the shriek wasn’t Zimm then you must convict HIM
I’m sure he’s think it was “The Yell to Hell” about now.
Follow
Here’s JR’s latest radio interview in LA . I haven’t listened but putting on my scuba mask and waders now.
I was hoping Jr would comment on the screams for help, but no dice. The show rehashed the usual.
I only listened to some of it……same old rhetoric for the most part. but if you listen between the lines, he knows it over and Fogen is guilty. Now it’s a matter of the fabrications of Crump & Jackson from the beginning. Huh ?? He said they stated there were 2 shots and quite a few other lies, but I can tell he’s looking for a landing zone.
A reminder from LLMPapa about who was screaming.
There should be someone in there courtroom with an audio selection like this for every witness the defense props up. You know, just like at a football or a baseball game when a specific play comes up.
So when one of the liars gets in the box, a “special song” gets played.
That giant smile as he steals TMs voice is a lil obvious.
That giant smile as he steals TMs voice is a lil obvious.
Sounds like a bad Disney Movie.
Wondering who this creepy was.Wondering why does he have a gun on me Wondering why no one was coming to help me. Wondering hat what did i do? Why wont he let me go? Please no. I think those were some of Trayvon’s last thoughts before his death.
Of course O’Mara doesn’t want the scream heard. Every sound expert who has worked on the tape says that Zimmerman could not have made those screams. They did not even come near to matching his voiceprint
Dreamers they are. Dream on Phooles…Dream on….
it’s obviously a kid’s voice and not Fogen’s voice
You dont even need an expert
Exactly,that’s obviously a teenagers voice. Everyone should know a teenagers voice when they hear it,unless they live in another world where teenagers don’t exist. I knew instantly.
Hello Nancy, I’ve been keeping up with you guys comments at HP and, you are doing a good job considering what you have to put up with. AFA is very swift in is comments and, he get the socks as well as the idiots who made the socks told in good fashion. especially Fogen’s father LJP. this man imo ought to be ashamed of himself, for blogging about is son’s murder as well as speaking bad of the victim and his parents. I shudder to think what kind of officer of the court, Robert Zimmerman senior made.
Could this admission about the 911 recording be a way for MO’M to pressure the defendant to change his plea? Otherwise, why’s he doing this?
I doubt it because I do not believe the prosecution has any incentive to offer a deal.
Not sure what he has in mind. Probably hopes he can create more controversy, muddy the waters and squeeze more money out of the defendant’s supporters and conspiracy theorists.
Maybe even lay the groundwork for another writ.
Personal image tweeking? This, after the recent arm around Ben Crump photo op at the AP banquet.
Could be his client, could be Trayvon, not expected from a hard driving defense statement. Could be he’s softening his image for more appeal to jurors, make himself likable, more ‘trustworthy’ and ‘honest’ visa via the statement that could be either voice screaming.
Playing to the jury with his nice guy act?
And of course, along with juror likeability and trust, they will hear that this awyer has doubts on what he calls the most significant piece of evidence, so jurors might also bring doubts to their decision and give the whole thing less weigh, if they like and believe this lawyer. Honest Mark.t.
Prof, I meant, could the defense team be trying to prod GZ to plead guilty?
A repost to correct typos. He already knows who was screaming for help.Even his client knows,and it wasn’t his client. A man with a gun will never scream like that. People only scream like that when they are in fear for their lives.
He only said he was the one screaming because he knew people in those houses near where he murdered Trayvon heard him screaming. he had to account for that that’s why his lying scum sucking @#$% client said he was the one screaming.Even his supporters know he wasn’t the one screaming.
If he had been getting beaten up like he claimed it would have been impossible for him to scream. It ‘s impossible to scream while a fist is repeatedly slamming into your face. I know from personal experience, i wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone. Except for maybe Zimmerman then Trayvon would still be alive because Zimmerman wouldn’t nave have been in any condition to fire a gun.
Trayvon was unarmed and had no weapons and he was alone.(Another reason Zimmerman went after him,there was no one else around.) Trayvon was not physically able to do what he claims he was not strong enough and he had no chance in a fair fight against a man who outweighed him by 50lbs. and he had no special fighting skills he didn’t know martial arts mixed or otherwise He was just your average teenager.
The jury will not buy for one nano second that was Zimmerman screaming. They will know instantly. They will know the second they hear those screams just as i did that was trayvon desperately screaming and crying for his life. They will start to cry just as i did because they will know what will come next. They will hear him scream I’M BEGGING YOU!!”. They will hear him scream “I DON’T KNOW”. They will hear him scream “NO DON’T’!! They will hear him scream “HELP ME. They will hear that heart breaking and horrific shriek NOO!!!! A last HELP!!! (They will also realize he was crying.) before the shot. they will hear those screams end abruptly the instant that gun goes off. No one screams lke that unless they know they are about to die especially when they realize no one is coming to help them.
Trayvon at that point just seconds before he was killed knew his life was over. He may have seen people who were out there that night watching and saw they wasn’t coming to his aid. Which made him panic even more. He may have even thought they were in on it some how.I firmly believe Jon saw more than he’s telling. I also believe Jeremy saw more than he’s telling. They could have saved Trayvon’s life by simply telling Zimmerman to put the gun down and let the boy go. I think it’s highly unlikely he would have shot them because the police were already on their way. Sure he would have gotten in trouble with the law again. he wouldn’t be waiting for a murder trial. He’s been in trouble with the law before he already knew the drill.
He only has himself to blame for his present predicament. If he had left Trayvon alone we wouldn’t be talking about him and would never have heard of trayvon and. Trayvon himself would be graduating this year. He picked the wrong family to mess with.
[EDIT: I deleted your first comment which this one replaces]
Of course the people you named saw and definitely know more than they are telling. the just stood by and let this crazed bigot execute an innocent child. every last one of them have got the blood of this kid on their hands, just as well as that bloated goat. as for the goat, his weight gain is more than just over eating. look at his ugly puffed up face. that puffy mug is caused by something more than over indulgence in food. his cheeks look like if you stick a damn pin in them, the air will be released.
Just compare his facial features from the photo of his orange jail attire and, you will see a big difference in his mug. this murderer is on some kind of medication, that has changed his facial appearance. there is a photo of him going inside the courthouse and, that photo is the beginning of his facial transformation, with the wild look in his eyes and, his face looks like a mask of a damn pig. oh yea, there is something more than weight gain from food taking place with this murdering idiot. his damn eyes are even sunk in.
@LadySt.Claire:
Fogen could be on some new medication to calm him down and one of the side effects arer weight gain, along with him stuffing his face because the medication causes you to eat. If you are not exercising, you will gain weight, and I have a feeling that Fogen is just sitting on his lazy a&& stuffing his face! His entire affect is blank. He blinks and just stares at you.
I definitely know that his Adderall contains a combination of amphetamine and dextroamphetamine. Both these medicines are central nervous system stimulants that affect chemicals in the brain and nerves that contribute to hyperactivity and impulse control and we know he has no impulse control.
Compare his courtroom demeanor and responses last week with the Hannity interview. Last week it seemed as though he could hardly get the answers out–despite, I am certain–having been coached to just say “yes, your honor” to everything. On Hannity–and even in his earlier courtroom appearances, he seemed alert, engaged. On Hannity he seemed even to smirk (when asked if he had ever heard of Stand Your Ground, for instance). In early courtroom appearances he had a ramrod appearance–as if he was actively focused every second on sitting up straight, paying attention, giving no facial expression.
Last week he shot furtive glances from side-to-side as he was being discussed.
On the one hand, his emotional response might well be colored by the deepening realization that he’s in deep, deep trouble. On the other, throwing in the extreme weight-gain, the sunken eyes and the difficulty with audible response, it seems a certainty that he has been medicated on something with pretty major and undesireable side effects.
Maybe that helps keep him off the internet and not writing anonymous letters. And maybe this is something that is part of a defense strategy. But the guy who was walked through the judge’s questions last week isn’t going to be of any more help on the stand than the Z we saw in the police tapes with his fanciful flights of imaginary details.
@Kllypyn:
Great post! I agree with LadySt.Claire as well. Those witnesses that your mentioned definitely know more and witnessed more than they are saying. I also believe John was watching, and then went back inside. COWARD! His cell phone was the one that picked up that fateful encounter of TM begging for his life. He had to be downstairs and outside for that encounter to picked up on a cell phone. These people chose not to intervene or help this boy in any way.I cannot imagine his fear and terror as he saw that gun in the hands of that lunatic! TM’s screams fell on deaf ears! Like the Professor stated: “TM died in the cold, and the rain.” Gasping as he felt his life slip from his body. THe last thing on his mind was his Mom most likely.
Trent Sawyer/StateoftheInternet, produced a video just on this topic. Check it out on Youtube. He even believed that Fogen had knocked on their back door, but then went around the front door after he realized that their back door was blocked off. I truly believe that Fogen’s anger issues were in full force that night. After he fell down, ran into the tree and received those scratches on his head and forehear, was seen by Austin, he became so out of control and was already enraged and so he became determned to find TM He blamed him for falling down, for the burglaries, everything!
BFF FT, stated that he was angry and not going to take it anymore. Take what anymore? The fact that he believed that the burglaries were being committed by young black males, and he assumed that TM was one of them because he was black? Fogen was angry because TM would not answer his questions, according to FT! What questions? TM stated that, “He didn’t know them” What the hell did he want? Who appointed Fogen a Police Officer? He was abolutely delusional and lost his mind that night!
It’s pretty bloodclot clear it’s not Fogen screaming and pleading for his life
And what a load of crap from Omara
with the exception of witness 11 and 6, who basically stated they could not tell who it was screaming, 4 or 5 of the witnesses stated it sounded like a kid making noises and one even pointed out that it was the kid
the rest of the witnesses state that there were screams for help which were ended by the gunshot
Fogen admits himself that it does not sound like him
His Tracy Martin allegations have no proof and there could have very well been miscommunication between the Tracy and the police on the meaning of what was said and what was actually said as there is no recording
I doubt Omara can suppress it because as usual, he has no valid argument
I feel really bad for Trayvon and his family
Not only do they lose a loved one, they have to endure the defense’s immoral and unrighteous tactics and lies
There’s definitely a special place in hell for people like Omara
I hope that Omara gets indicted on his participation with with the money schemes and passports schemes as there is reasonable suspicion there
somewhere there is an interview with Tracey Martin, where he explains he was asked could he be CERTAIN that was his son and he replied NO……
at no time did he say that was NOT Trayvon……only that he could NOT be certain it was.
A measured response to a sneak question from a man still in shock over his son’s slaying. And what did he get for it? Nothing but slimed from assorted directions.
I hope this point is brought out at trial. It appears even survivors of victims should refuse to speak with police without a lawyer by their side.
Just based on the timing of the first time he heard it, and having to deal with all that had happened, I can imagine that his internal inclination would be to deny that his son had experienced such terror and that such were his last expressions on earth.
Fogen’s own words are his greatest threat leading toward conviction. Nominee for runner-up: O’Mara in the big mouth department.
Yep. Gz is the star witness
He’s cute huh? Let the jury decide, oh really “where they do that at!”
So no expert Mr. MOM , why might I ask? Could it be that you know your client is what let me see……… What’s the word I’m looking for, I got it a liar! Sorry buddy no playing to that one juror on this one,
>^..^< hoodies up!
This sounds like an attempt by the defense to get a peek at the state’s work product.
Everything is and has been. Lazy effers don’ t wanna make their own case…cuz they don’t have one.
Or cannot afford one.
Wow! The typical signs of a defence going down the toilet; desperation can make an unethical person throw anyone under the bus, it appears! This just proves how very important that audio is for the prosecution, according to the defence, but of course, WE have known that from the get go! O’Mara always reveals more than he intends to, I think!
On a related note – poor, poor Sundance is also getting ignored by the media – http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/05/05/the-media-has-lost-all-purpose-and-becoming-irrelevant-the-backdrop-of-florida-v-zimmerman-is-only-one-more-example/#comments
I know. LOL
He still doesn’t know who is awaiting trial for 2nd degree murder. Also, he apparently doesn’t know that the CTH has a VERY bad reputation — major media does not want to associate with a blogger who might be under federal investigation.
And they tell SD what the Prof and anyone with armed with correct legal info has said – any prior criminal or almost criminal behavior by the victim isn’t admissable and even if it was, doesn’t matter. Fogen is on trial. Oops, there goes some of the claim that the media is railroading poor Fogen.
@Two sides. All the mumbo twists and turns about Trayvon’s school records was laid to rest by the lawyer for FDLE. In a hearing he stated that nothing in Trayvon’s school records is admissible at trial.
So now SD wants the media to make his interpretation of non-public records, public, when those records and any interpretation thereto, are not admissible at trial.
Xena, I can’t believe he’s so stubbornly persistent while insisting he also adheres to facts and truth. Sheesh.
@Two sides.
It’s sovereign citizen mindset. There is a man who claims that his property was stolen because the county wanted to use it for a landfill. He started that conspiracy back in the late 1970’s just after he obtained a loan using the property for collateral. Well, sure enough, around 1998, he lost the property in a bankruptcy case because he failed to pay the loan. The last I heard anything about the massive number of frivolous cases he filed was in 2010 — and he still contended that the bank stole the property to sell to the county as a landfill.
Guess what? Here it is 2013, and the property is still residential and farming– no landfill.
@two sides they are mad b/c the media won’t print any more of their BS lies lol
😀
After reading the comments, all I can say is WOW ! They’re effin certifiable…hate filled, paranoid, anti government, sovereign citizen,gun clutchin xtian dominionist, homophobe, anti-Islam, trod upon whites persecuted by “the media”, “communists”, “leftists” ,”socialists”..
an ugly peek at *real ‘merica’s* underbelly
Heh heh, looneydoone. Did you read the comments under the other Fogen case article and the speculation about why BDLR mentions CTH? It’s a real eye-opener as well. Funnee.
two sides,
No. I didn’t read any further
The thing I like best is O’Mara, papi z, and jr’s having inextricably having tied themselves to the treehouse 😉
Read for awhile. LeaNder did a good job of carrying on rationally with them. And I have definitely seen crazier elsewhere.
But, what struck me is the fallacy of equal and opposite that seems to afflict many in this country.There is an assumption that blacks are able to engage in an equal and opposite racism to that of whites. This wholly misunderstands that racism is wholly about the consolidation of power (or wealth, jobs, property and so forth) in the hands of a racially determined group. The vitriole that supports this systemic consolidation is largely carried out by others nearly as powerless and serves to provide cover for those who benefit in the upper echelons. While there may be prejudice all the way around, there is no equal and opposite version of racism being carried out by blacks against whites. In fact, one of the sad realities related to growing up as a member of a group viewed as “less then” systemically is the propensity to see one’s self as “less than.”
The CTH, and a good many other Z. supporters see this trial as an equal match between two equally situated opponents. They do not see a crime with a victim. Therefore, they cannot understand why any elements of the victim’s background (or heaven forbid his family’s background) are not only not fair game at trial, but of no great interest to the press. The fact that such elements in Z’s background, as the accused, MAY relate to his willingness to commit murder, or to act in reckless disregard for human life simply angers them and feeds their belief that their side isn’t getting a fair shake.
You know, that “equal and opposite” fallacy is a persistent stupidifying problem. “It doesn’t matter that whites are racists because just as many black people hate whites as whites hating blacks” is really a foolish and dishonest cliche fairy-tale.
If you have a torturer and a victim, I’ll bet you the victim has negative feelings about the torturer too; does that make it fair that the torturer is doing what he is doing? Because he presumes an equal “hatred” from his victim?
It’s an excuse and not a good one.
@Two sides
What? You mean this?
*snickers* Yes.
I think sundance the liar may have his own legal issues to worry about.
@Kllypyn
I certainly hope so.
That Jack Ass has yet to touch the heart of the matter….a murder.
Amazing !!
Professor, is this what the evidentiary hearing is about? What exactly is an evidentiary hearing and why are they normally held? Why would O’Mara think he can call such a meeting for this purpose? Is there case law that leads him to feel he will be successful in this matter?
The professor addressed evidentiary hearings earlier. What O’Mara says about the recording sounds almost like something that would be in a motion in liminie.
An evidentiary hearing is any hearing where witnesses testify and evidence is presented through the witnesses.
It is not a hearing where the court listens to arguments of counsel.
Will there be filings ahead of the hearing? I am just wondering what else O’Mara may be getting ready to ask for–it would seem as though the issue of the tape wouldn’t take very long to resolve.
Thank you!
Prosecution witnesses and defense witnesses disagree, WOW! I think they have done the voice test and realized it’s not fogens voice so now he wants it thrown out when all along for a year now he said it was his client, cant have it both ways Mark!!
O’Mara and West have heard the tape and know that GZ is heard talking simultaneous to the screams. That means that the recording turns from who was screaming, to who was talking/cursing. Chances are that an expert witness will testify it is GZ’s voice talking, cursing at Trayvon. The defense does not want the jury to hear that.
Maybe more…
There are four audiologist on the prosecution’s list, IIRC.
Aside: I am elated that GZ’s obnoxious family and friends are on the list as well. It will be riveting and gratifying to finally see them, especially RZ Jr., revealed as the liars they are and torn to shreds.
@parrot.
I’m taking a guess here;
1. One to testify how the recording was enhanced.
2. One to testify that there are two voices in the background.
3. One to testify that GZ’s voice is distinguishable in the background from the voice screaming, and is not the voice that is screaming for help.
4. One to testify about GZ’s NEN call — just maybe that sound is GZ racking his gun.
I can’t wait …
parrott, i could not agree more. i have said over and over again to the killer’s supporters that logic dictates that the person who had the gun pointed at them was the person screaming and begging for their life, not the other way around. the screams abruptbly end when the hollow point bullet shatters trayvon;s heart. i hope the killer’s entire family flees the country, never ever to be heard from again.
@justchill. Just got this up;
I am 100% with Xena, it’s not about excluding the tape, it’s about excluding experts.
If we consider that defense has spent so far $19,000 on witnesses in 2013 and not a penny in 2012, in other words about 4,3% of all the money collected, this is no big surprise.
I am basing the percentage on all the money collected according to O’Mara and not only the rest of the initial amount which surfaced in the official fund.
@LeaNder. I think that O’Mara hopes that people forget what has already happened.
Tick Tock
Interesting that O’Mara says in the HLN interview that his experts “were all over the place” in terms of their opinions of who was shrieking.
If even ONE expert opined that it was, in fact, GZ, O’Mara would have listed him/her on the defense witness list, so it follows that NOT ONE OF THEM OPINED IT WAS GZ.
Just another prevarication from the defense.
Listening to the defense and its supporters makes me feel like I’m in BIZARRO WORLD.
We need Gary Larson to come out of retirement to do some cartoons of fogen & company 🙂
Pat,
I loved The Far Side!
Miss it …
I was always getting Far Side books, calenders, desk calenders and such for bdays & xmas…
Gary was a man the looked at life much the same way I do…
‘cept I can’t draw for crap 😦
@parrot.
As SearchingMind pointed out, O’Mara mixes expert witnesses with civilian witnesses in his statement. It’s the civilian witnesses who are all over the place. The experts agree that the voice is not that of GZ.
@Xena:
Hi Xena. How it going? Yes,we know that West and O’Moron both heard the tape, unredacted, and they hear Fogen using racist epithets and interrogating this kid about the burglarys. West and O’Moron hear that boy screaming, “Mommmm! Helppp! I don’t know them! Helppppp! STOPPP! Help Me!” Then bang! The screams stop! I even hear the F word and we know TM was not using the F word! Fogen never counted on this dialogue being picked up by a witnessess cell phone! Fogen never counted on being arrested!
Of course the defense does not want the jury to hear this tape! O’Moron and West knows exactly what is on it, and can you imagine playing that tape to the jury and the court!? Let them all hear it! Let Fogen’s obnoxious, racist family hear that tape so they can cringe and stop denying the inevitable as the Martin Family gives them the evil eye! The jury will be disgusted and so will the spectators and the family of TM will cry when they hear their loved one calling out for his Mom. ::SIGH::
@Deborah.
O’Mara’s game plan might not work, because Bernie has yet to acknowledge whether the enhanced version is available. Then, will O’Mara object to it being the tape that the jury hears? What will O’Mara try having eliminated from trial next — all forensic experts?
I’m still not understanding his whining. I would think it is typical that experts don’t agree all the time. However, the defense gets one who agrees with them, the state gets one who agrees with them and ultimately it IS the jury who decides, based upon what they hear from the various experts.
So what is the problem? It sounds more like he is unable to find an expert who will agree with the defense? But don’t you think they would for a price? Oh yeah. They’ve been pretty public about not having any money. But what about if GZ gets acquitted? I mean the book deals, the talk shows, the lawsuits – oh yeah, they are already themselves being sued for nonpayment.
Any time I get depressed about life (which I do frequently), all I have to do is think of O’Mara and realize it must really suck to be him.
@Rachael.
BINGO!
Xena, you may be interested in this article by Mark Exposito on Jonathan Turley’s blog.
I had to listen to O’Mara several time, but he seems to suggest that voice recognition specialists are in the process of being appointed. By the state? Can they find an expert at all since both leading experts in the field seem to have arrived at the same conclusions in this context. Usually they sometimes face each other on the respective sides.
Good job again.
@LeaNder.
Thanks, but I read Esposito’s article last year.
The State is the only party releasing the names of expert witnesses. O’Mara has yet to do so. He said he had them, but he has not produced their names yet.
“The State is the only party releasing the names of expert witnesses. O’Mara has yet to do so. He said he had them, but he has not produced their names yet.”
So again we say……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=angi1vwUkQc !!!!
Slightly off topic, but some here seem to consider Jeff Weiner and Rene Stutzman as belonging to the same camp, I don’t think they do really. The article about the voice analysis was by Jeff Weiner, interestingly.
@ Xena. I sure hope you’re right about those audiologists! And it’ll be nice to know what those clacking sounds were……..finally.
Not every witness on a list gets called. It’s highly unlikely that the judge will allow testimony from four prosecution audiologists. Far more likely that one, or at most two, will synthesize the findings of the others.
Using multiple experts is most often done with the purpose of discrediting an opposing expert, by using books, articles, or findings with an examination technique called the “wall of books.”
BDL
Parrot, your point is exactly right. NOT ONE EXPERT agreed to testify that the scream was Fogen or we would never have heard thing 2 about it; that expert would have been on the witness list and would have been talking on YouTube nonstop and Junior would have been quoting him/her X 100! They can beat the bushes until the cows come home (I love mixing silly metaphors) and they will never find an expert to self-destruct on the stand to say the scream was Fogen’s. NOW he needs to bark, “help me help me help me help me…”
Gladazz, with her white supremacist nonsense, likely will manage annoy the jury no end. I don’t look for BDLR to go easy on her, should the occasion arise.
In the movie “fogen and his non future”
The role of gladass will be played by Alyce LaToilette
“The role of gladass will be played by Alyce LaToilette”
Are you sure her names not “Flushe DeToilette” They both sound the same as you know.
She’s not the only witness likely to annoy the jury in that family and in GZ’s circle of support.
I think it’s more than just any voice analysis. I suspect that Trayvon’s parents came across as very convincing when the defense team deposed them, and GZ’s parents and brother not so much. After all, the best that his father could offer earlier was that he’d heard his son sound like that years ago, when he was a teenager, not as a man in his late twenties.. Then we have the witnesses who initially said that the screams sounded like a younger voice, only to be ‘corrected’ by an SPD officer, and GZ’s own statement that it didn’t even sound like him on the 911 tape. Bernie would have hammered that hard in front of the jury.
follow
Just when I thought the defense team couldn’t sink any lower!
Two sides,
Why do you think that trying to exclude the scream is “low” on the part of the defense?
BDL
I want to hear the terrorized scream when GZ is dragged out of court through the detention cell door.
And we can be 100% sure it’s not the same scream on any of the 911 calls. Probably a lot higher as well……..higher in pitch & volume.
Not if he somehow happens to have somethings stuffed in his mouth.
Again…..I missed the obvious.
Oh, wait !!!!!!! What about all those black guys who offered him signs of “solidarity” when he was in prison last year ?? Or did I miss something in that giving one the bird and / or a “slit across the throat” motion ain’t exactly signs of “Welcome here anytime….
………brother”
He’ll be welcomed with opened arms! All he has to worry about is what to do when the opened arms close. That sweet embraceable yooo!
Yep……and who will he fit in with……what group ??
I’m thinking he’ll be the only Afro – Peruvian Phatasanelephant murderer in the prison system….Naaaaaaa, it’s Game Over soon.
I see a “Dhamerization”
@ Two sides
I think Dick the Butcher was thinking about lawyers like O’Mara and West in Act 4, Scene 2 of Shakespeare’s King Henry VI, Part 2.
I’m not gonna quote it because I know we all know our Shakespeare.