Zimmerman: The defense must retain its own experts

Sunday, May 5, 2013

Good morning:

Amsterdam1234 provided the inspiration for this post with this comment:


About the contents of Trayvon’s phone. I listened very carefully to what was requested by the defense, and how the state responded to the requests concerning data on Trayvon’s phone.

The state gave defense 2 reports that listed some information found on Trayvon’s phone. They also gave all the raw data they were able to retrieve, to the defense.

During the hearing West was whining about not being able to read the data without special software. That defense team is an embarrasment. It is very obvious they haven’t hired a forensic digital data expert yet, and they are hoping to find out what was on that phone through the state’s forensic analysis of the data.

Bernie said “we’ve given them the data in the format they requested it, they can hire their own expert to analyze it.

Maybe one of you legal minds can explain what is work product and what is discovery that needs to be given to the defense.

For the following reasons, I believe the defense is committing malpractice by not employing its own team of experts to review all of the raw data and bench notes generated by the State’s experts.

The defense asked the State to turn over the raw data generated by all of the State’s experts and I believe the State has complied with that request.

This was an appropriate request that I would have made.

I specialized in forensics and I was more interested in the raw data and bench notes rather than an expert’s opinion, or interpretation of the raw data, because I was used to seeing interpretations that conflicted with or were not supported by the raw data and bench notes. If the lawyer does not have the raw data and bench notes to compare to the expert’s report, the lawyer has no way of evaluating the accuracy of an expert’s conclusions.

Literally, an expert’s report is worthless without the raw data and bench notes to support it.

Since the vast majority of criminal defense lawyers do not know squat about science and forensics, they would have no idea how to interpret raw data and bench notes. Most do not even know what bench notes are.

Given the alarmingly high rate of forensic fraud in public and privately owned and operated crime labs in this country, I believe every criminal defense lawyer absolutely must have the assistance of their own experts to review all of the raw data and bench notes generated by the State’s experts. This is so important that I believe a criminal defense lawyer cannot provide effective assistance of counsel to a client unless he does so. In other words, the failure to do so would potentially constitute a Sixth Amendment violation pursuant to the test set forth in Strickland v. Washington, 466 US 668, 104 S. Ct. 2052, 80 L. Ed. 2d 674 (1984).

I say, “potentially,” because counsel’s failure to secure the assistance of an expert would have to have materially affected the outcome of the trial. That is, that it is more probable than not that the jury verdict would have been different if defense counsel had retained an expert.

Murder trials differ significantly from regular criminal trials in many ways. One of the most significant differences is the prosecution’s heavy reliance on forensic evidence to prove its case. This heavy reliance means that the forensic evidence will almost always qualify as material evidence that more probably than not affects the outcome. For this reason, I believe a criminal defense lawyer commits malpractice in a murder case, if he does not retain experts to review all of the raw data and bench notes generated by the State’s experts.

That is the only way to effectively evaluate the validity of the conclusions and opinions expressed by the State’s experts. Asking them to interpret their own data is worthless because they are not going to admit that the raw data does not support their conclusions.

This is why I said the defense did the right thing by requesting the raw data.

Of course, it’s useless to them, if they do not know how to interpret it.

This is why the defense should have assembled its own team of experts last summer to review all of the raw data and bench notes generated by the State’s experts. Of course, the assistance of its own expert would ordinarily not be necessary, if the conclusions and opinions of the State’s expert are exculpatory.

However, the defense has no reason to believe that any of the State’s forensic evidence is exculpatory since Bernie de la Rionda did not advise the defense that it was. Therefore, the defense has to assume that the evidence is not exculpatory and this means that it must retain its own experts to review all of the raw data and bench notes generated by the State’s experts. Obviously, that includes the raw data retrieved from Trayvon’s phone.

For this reason, I consider West’s whiny request for assistance from the State in understanding the raw data on Trayvon’s phone to be an admission of malpractice.

Aside from ignorance, the obvious problem for the defense is lack of money. However, the defense created that problem by not setting aside sufficient funds for experts.

The solution is to admit the egregious and grossly negligent mistake and apply to the court for the relief that the defendant is entitled to pursuant to Ake v. Oklahoma, 470 US 68, 105 S. Ct. 1087, 84 L. Ed. 2d 53 (1985). However, that would require a finding that the defendant is indigent. Apparently, he has too much pride to do that and his lawyers have too much pride to admit that they screwed up.

That brings us to where we are today, a little over 30 days before a murder trial with a stubborn defendant represented by two lawyers who do not know what they are doing.

Finally, Amsterdam1234 specifically asked about discovery violations.

The State has not committed a discovery violation and the defense should STFU and get its own expert instead of whining about not being able to comprehend the raw data retrieved from Trayvon’s phone.


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129 Responses to Zimmerman: The defense must retain its own experts

  1. Awesome!! Prof you made this persistant whining and complaining and motions against the state for discovey violations so crystal clear! They truly have not done their own work!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      While talking like a winner for over a year, MOM has been acting like a sure loser for over that same year. He’s always claims to be ready to put up, but when the time comes to put up, he shuts up instead.

      He fills the air with nebulous motions filled with repetitious hot air, to occupy the Judges time swatting them down. He keeps dreaming up new procedures and new versions of old procedures, none of which exist at law, then insist for the media that these nonexistent devices are his fall backs and will save the day. Meanwhile he knows that GZ has also “cleverly waived his right to full compensation” when he waived the immunity hearing. This, at a time when the defense is pleading broke. Shouldn’t they be trying to cash in on this claimed preponderance of evidence they have? Instead of squabbling over who was screaming on the 911 tape, and then asking the Judge to settle the controversy by excluding the tape altogether?

      Gee! If that doesn’t sound like an admission of guilt I have no idea what does. So sad, all the defense has left is TCTH, and they’ve been responsible for nothing but time being wasted and people being alienated.

      • Clever?! what a dummy! and to think the zimmerlovers are parroting that same shit!! it’s like they don’t think normal people remember they’ve been saying the complete opposite for a year! But now, suddenly they’ve come up with an even MORE clever lie!
        who needs a dumb ol immunity hearing, gz wants to go to trial and risk life in prison! lol

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yeah and if he had such a winning case to make, why not go for the immunity hearing where you, not only get immunity from civil suit, but the state has to reimburse all of your costs as well. Meaning he would immediately get his 95.000 dollar bail fee back, but the 40k he had to spend on O’Mara’s offices, and the 60k he spent on security, and the state would have to pay off the security firm.

          This way, if he gets an acquittal he still has to face the immunity hearing to get anything, and not only could he still get nothing, he might not even be able to get the immunity hearing at all, since he already waived his right to it.

          Nothing he says makes any sense!

          • racerrodig says:

            Make no mistake….once he waives his Immunity Right, there is no going back. He’s facing all possible prosecution and civil suits as the filing deadline is well behind. Don’t let any of their BS cloud reality. They cannot get partway through the trial and go “…Opppps, that ain’t working out to well….hey, I know, lets have a whack at some Immunity !!….yeah, that’s the ticket”

            They can’t claim Immunity at all now, not during nor after the trial. Trust me, my lawyer and Fed guys are laughing at Moron O when he takes the posture they can just pop open a can of Immunity at any time.

            Pre – Trial !! It’s just about over but the clapping now.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, their dreams of the good life on Polynesian Beaches, sipping drinks with little umbrellas is PooF, gone, replaced by the cold stone grey walls of the State Criminal Retreat and drinks with little bugs in them.

          • racerrodig says:

            “… State Criminal Retreat….” That’s Great.

            What is the one thing that will be heard most often by Fogen in the “Retreat” ??

          • Lets not forget room service……Fine Cuisine brought to you through a slot in your cell door….

            Knowing a bit about prisons……fogen will never really be sure of what he’s eating…….unless he happens to pull the odd pubic hair from his tray…….Just sayin’

          • racerrodig says:

            I always wonder what “extra’s” the cooks put there. A cook in NJ got 3 years for spitting in the meal of a cop about a year ago. Boogers, he put some boogers in the food as well.

  2. Lonnie Starr says:

    The one component missing that escapes the 6th Amendment violation is, that the defense accepts the prosecutions findings for cause. Where “cause” would be that, they have already determined that there is no possible, or reasonable expectation, that they will be able to controvert the evidence critical to provenance of the crime.

    Where the defense attorneys have tried to figure out what happened, and developed exculpatory hypothesis and theories from the evidence, only to have the defendant himself repudiate his own innocence theories by introducing or creating even more controversy.
    Such that the question then becomes “What’s the use?” Every time we work out how this client might be innocent of the crime charged, he repudiates his own innocence.

    Having done this so many times now, the defense attorneys see no way that expert examination of any technological evidence will help, because the defendant’s repudiations have already precluded forensic help. I doubt the law can require they waste money on a fraudulent pretense that expert work/testimony will do what it cannot possibly do, with the defendant constantly repudiating it.

    Worse yet is the fact that, to make any expert testimony useful in this case, where the matter is about the lethality of the threat faced at the time of weapon discharge, must rely upon the defendant testifying. But, where the defendant has sacrificed his necessary credibility in so many dramatic ways beforehand, and having give so many conflicting stories, none of which match the evidence, it is not just of little utility to put him on the stand, but it is incredibly dangerous as well.

    Since no expert testimony or forensic work can be effective without the defendants testimony, and since the defendant cannot testify effectively, there’s simply no point in pursuing costly expert opinion.
    To do so would amount to fraud. Wasting money on material that they know in advance will not work or help the case.

    • Malisha says:

      If Fogen was really afraid that somebody’s conduct was endangering him, he should have shot his-damn-self.

      • He still might……

        I’m layin 2:1 he runs before the verdict……..he will be “free” on bond until then……

        Cielo’s down for $20.00….want a piece?

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s a tough call…….he may have the gall to shoot an unarmed minor child….BUT, using that logic, he’d never shoot an armed Fogen.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        That would have been great, if the gun had gone off while he was still in his truck and hit him squarely in the leg.

        • racerrodig says:

          Then who would he blame……

          • Better yet…a self inflicted wound that would have induced an automatic sex change…..wink wink….nod nod…..

          • racerrodig says:

            Now explain this one……

            “…um and he’s a black male…..I don’t know what his deal is….”

            Blammmmm “…and he’s got a…a……a…….a…(fuck, that hurt)…a…a
            …a….button on his shirt”

            SPD “…what was that noise”

            “Can you have the officer call me when he gets here”

          • LMAO 🙂

            “I’ll be the one on the ground holding my crotch where any balls I ever had were…..crying like a baby………Oh could you please call shellie and tell her I shot my manhood off”

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s about right…..

      • two sides to a story says:

        Too bad he got that hand out of the way.

        • racerrodig says:

          I’ve been saying this since last May or so. Try explaining self defense if he shot all of his left fingers off !!

          • “Try explaining self defense if he shot all of his left fingers off”

            It would prove he was a crack shot….well a quad shot anyway.

            The rendezvous I participate in…….Everyone carrying a long arm HAS TO HAVE the ramrod in the barrel as to show it’s unloaded.

            Doing the “hunters walk”…(different targets hanging off in the trees….coffee pots…pie tins and such)…You load at each station……Even when I do it with a 6 shooter….I can only load one round per station.

            First rendezvous? Memorial Day weekend 🙂 …..they’ll even have a cannon range 🙂

            Sorry for the ramble…….just that firearms safety can’t be stressed enough.

            The soapbox is now open.

          • racerrodig says:

            “Sorry for the ramble…….just that firearms safety can’t be stressed enough.”

            Don’t be sorry ….it’s true.

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- CANNON RANGE?? COOL! I’ve never fired a cannon! Lets aim it at your Zidiot neighbor! 😉

            Sent from my iPod

          • U can buy a functioning Civil War cannon (repro) for about 10 grand……Dixie Gunworks

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember “Carbide Cannons” Had a few back in the 60’s…..loud.

          • U can still get them 🙂

            Tennis ball cannons out of beer cans and light fluid as a propellent?

            Ur Dad didn’t let U do that now did he? 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Actually back about 1975 he was amazed at how good the one’s I made were. I used an old Christmas Wrapping Paper tube and one can with the end opened and the pin hole ignitor.

            Seems multiple cans were a little less efficient.

          • Ya got to use duct tape wif da cans tho 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I did….instead of 1/2 a dozen cans, I used a 3 foot cardboard tube with 1 can……much more “FirePower” that way.

    • racerrodig says:

      So my take …

      “You have the right to remain silent…..”

      Fogen “….um, why would I do that……I have so many more versions to tell ya…” is pretty much a reality.

  3. ic2fools says:

    2nd paragraph first sentence correction: ever heard…


  4. ic2fools says:

    Good day everyone! Professor thank you and everyone for you thought provoking comments.

    I have never in my life every heard of attorneys’ depending on other attorneys’ work product and expert witnesses and attempt to bambozzle the court with motions, sanctions and appeals to get it. To say the least Fogen defense team have shown the worst case of professional begging from A to ZFogen. I strongly believe defense team has broken laws and tarnished ethics to the point they NEED to be investigated, criminally charged and disbarred. JMHO.

    IC2 Damned Fools i.e. O’mara & West……

  5. Jun says:

    Is there such a thing as a “you snooze you lose” ruling?

    Everything thus far seems to be the total fault of the defense lawyers and the defendant and they have had over a year and more than enough money for everything yet they did not organize properly and instead greedily spent all their money and wasted time

  6. Dennis says:

    I think we all would like to know about Fogen’s phone data. Did they already release that in discovery? We all want to know who Fogen may have talked to after he hung up with dispatch. If he did call somebody, it was probably Osterman. I think he may have been coordinating a search for Trayvon with him if so.

  7. tryagainplease12 says:

    IMO i don’t think it’s about the screams only, I think it’s about the threatning manner of asking Trayvon (what are you doing here?) Showing agression towards Trayvon. They know who the screams belong to that’s why they want it thrown out!

  8. PYorck says:

    I wonder if there is anything to the voice identification issue that I am missing. There were other motions where it wasn’t a huge surprise that they were not successful. However in those cases at least they promoted a favorable narrative even if it was just a vague allegation that there is “something afoot” and being hidden.

    “Defense wants to silence all experts on most important piece of evidence” doesn’t sound good any way you slice it.

    I don’t understand what’s up with that.

    Perhaps they want to force the state to show their hand and reveal a second voice that would probably be missed without experts. That way they can decide if they have to spend any of the precious pizza money to defend against that, but at this point that would seem a bit desperate.

    • Rachael says:

      I’m going with your perhaps they want to force the state to show their hand. I feel like that has been their thing all along. I don’t know if it is because they are too lazy to make their own case, they know they don’t have a case, they would rather try this in the media, or what, but I do think they have always wanted to state to show their hand from the start. They will fine out in not so very many days.

    • pat deadder says:

      I’m starting to think they’ve had the tape analyized and they know what’s on it and they are going to ask or beg for a plea deal.

  9. Crazy, I can say one thing about O’Mara. He has a losing hand and knows it. But he is a defense attorney. Although his tactics are downright wrong in his handling of the true victim in this case, he is certainly trying everything he can for his guilty client.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Certainly noone can fault OM for not leaving any unturned stones along the banks of Da Nile.

      • racerrodig says:

        Maybe we can agree “unturned stones” are actually just dried out “Pebbles” since they amount to nothing but that little annoyance in the shoe ?????

  10. Xena says:

    VERY interesting post, professor. I am running behind — want to read every comment.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Hello Xena, hope you had a very nice Sunday. I’ve been reading the comments and, they are all very good as usual. as for the Professor, he’s the BEST hands down.

      Hopefully with the number of supporters for our Trayvon and his family, we will all lift them up in prayer and fight this fight with them until justice is theirs and, Trayvon’s as well. then our little precious angel can R.I.P.

  11. crazy1946 says:

    From the desk of Crazy1946 located under a rock:
    If there is any real justice left in this country there are several things that should happen at the conclusion of this trial. The first thing is that Fogen should have a free taxi ride to the state hotel of the judges choice. The second thing is that Mom and West should have proceedings started against them to revoke their licenses to practice law! These two “alleged” attorneys are making a mockery of the justice system put in place in the Banana Republic of Florida! I have used attorneys in civil cases several times in the past, however I would not use either one of these “alleged” attorneys to represent my interests in even a “small claims court case”!

  12. That is one of the theories, Judy. The only one who knows for sure what GZ did in the two minutes or so after telling the NEN dispatcher to have the officer to call him is GZ and only GZ. We don’t know for sure where he even exited his truck. He knows though. He knows exactly what happened that night. And that story, he has not told yet. He has told many others but not that story yet.

  13. Thank you to everyone for all the great reads, videos, links, and ideas presented here.

    I have a question…Has it been determined, did Zimmerman walk from the sreet at the top left of the “T” (where his pick up was parked) straight across the top of the “T” to the outside street, then down toward Brandi Green’s home, then head back up the “T” catching Trayon at the back door of his Father’s house?

    That would put him heading toward the “back entrance” that he told the NEN that Trayvon was heading to when he “ran” right?

    Is this what he did? Force Trayvon back up the “T”?

    Confronting Trayvon at his own back porch, chasing him up the T with gun drawn? I think and it is just my own idea, that he had that gun out.

    I can not wait for this trial to start.

    • manberk says:

      I don’t think they determined that Judy but it sounds logical. What we do know if he didnt go right back to his truck like he said in his first interview. It wasn’t until Serino pressed him over the missing time that he finally admitted to staying on RTC for light he hadn’t needed until thin. He talked too much and eventually screwed himself. That comment should come back to haunt him. Same with saying he was scared. His actions say otherwise.

  14. colin black says:

    , however, it’s 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s voice on the recording, then it could show Zimmerman was “acting in a very aggressive way toward him,” O’Mara said.

    That right there is the first salvo fired in.
    Lets make a deal my client is GUILTY.

    Thats as much a warning/message to his client an supporters that
    He has to plead if the tape conclusively shows it Trayvon begging an screaming
    An we all know it is.

    Not just aggresive way but VERY aggresive way.
    The extra word shows anxiety in M O M he knows already it Trayvon.
    The prosecution probaly already have a transcript of practicaly the entire exchange up untill foggagge ended Trayvon voice with a hollow point bullet….

    • cielo62 says:

      Colin Black- there is no reason for the prosecution to offer a plea deal. I believe they won’t. This is a positive win for the State of Florida. Find GZ guilty in a very public way and the governor gets a big gold star.

      Sent from my iPod

    • If that’s the case, and I would not be surprised if it is, the prosecution has no incentive to plea bargain.

      The “offer” would be plead as charged and take your chances at sentencing, or go to trial.

      • colin black says:

        Theres always the financeial motive to save time an money for the taxpayers.
        And the motive to make this potentialy explosive trial .
        Igniteing passions an racial sterotypes an haters.
        Turn into a damp sqib .
        Rather than ignighting a race war riots blah blah that the treehouse types would just love to see.
        There are many reasons the powers that be might be tempted to accept a plea m o o.

    • ladystclaire says:

      MOM is also playing up to the dog house and, other racist supporters of his murdering guilty client. after the name of MOM’s game is mo money.

      Now, if they decide to seek a plea, which I hope the state isn’t offering one, wouldn’t his sentence have to be something that the family of Trayvon would have a say in? imo Fogen should have to serve the 25+10 and nothing less.

    • Jun says:

      I think even if Omara and Fogen wanted to plea, the Conservative Tinfoil Hat would plot to attack Omara for doing that

      • racerrodig says:

        “I think even if Omara and Fogen wanted to plea, the Conservative Tinfoil Hat would plot to attack Omara for doing that”

        So we’ll read some more of Sundance Crackpot’s code…..

        “Just got off the phone……..Just got off the phone”

        “John has a long mustache……..John has a long mustache”

        “The chair is against the wall…….The chair is against the wall”

        “The sniper is on the hill…….the sniper is on the hill”

        You know…….simpletons code like “Peter Pan” and $37.00

  15. amsterdam1234 says:

    Thank you Professor,

    I was flabbergasted listening to West trying to define what it was he wanted from the state. They have no clue what they are talking about. I think what they want is another report from the state, listing exactly what the raw data is, so that they can ask for a limited analysis from their own expert.
    West was complaining that he needed special software to read the data. You need a digital forensic expert to use the software and interpret the reults generated by the software.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The defense team created and still sustains the myth accepted by their paying supporters that the state is either withholding information from or has deleted information on the phone. Fogen supporters don’t seem to grasp that they simply need the expert to read the data.

      They don’t seem to grasp why Nelson had to quiz Fogen about waiving immunity for the court record and to close legal loopholes in the future. They think the prosecution insisted she do that as a ruse to taint the jury and that it was ridiculous to parade old news. Keeps ’em flowing down da Nile, I suppose.

    • manberk says:

      @amstermam $40k in infrastructure doesn’t get you what it used to. He better start charging a tech fee to the doners.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I saw they used $3000 on experts. It is so embarrassing to watch and listen to the defense. I want GZ to spend the rest of his life in jail. I also want the legal system to work.
        I don’t think it will make a difference in the outcome, but I want the guilty verdict to be clean and clear.

    • colin black says:

      West said he didnt even know hoh to use the internet .
      I find that hard to belive.
      I meaan how can he do his job without emails ect?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Colin, for West to be an attorney in the electronic world of this century, he just let the entire world know that he is an idiot for sure. why doctors offices are now using the Ipad in their daily dealings with their patients, instead of the old days of patient charts that sometime have to be purged.

        West looks like one who would rather regress instead of progress in this day and age of electronics. but, I digress because, this man is lying about not knowing how to use the internet.

  16. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< following from a distance.

  17. kenteoth says:

    I see the virtual noose tightening on the defense even more as they are trying to pull rabbits out of their hats……they seem to forget one thing……Trix are for kids……….

    • Rachael says:

      More like pulling rabbits outa their ass.

      • Malisha says:

        Uh Oh, ooooh, disturbing. Bothers my image of adorable little bunny rabbits. 🙄

      • Rachael says:

        Sorry ’bout that – but that defense team bothers my image about a lot of things – truth, fairness, justice, defense and so on and so forth. Those things may not be cute little bunny rabbits, but they are SUPPOSED to be part of a system that makes this country great and they are making a mockery of it.

        A disturbing image indeed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Poop bunnies? LOL!

      • manberk says:


      • kenteoth says:

        that’s an insult to bunnies….more like stuffing live scorpions in their ass LOL

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, LMAO and you really hit the nail on the head with that one. no damn wonder O’mara and West along with Fogen and the blond, look like sour grapes all the time. pulling them rabbits out of their hind quarters must be real painful. you guess they are in need for some Prep-H?

  18. manberk says:

    I don’t know if anyone caught the HLN interview MOM did after the hearing but he mentioned he was going to request another hearing and this one according to him would be even more important and more time consuming because his experts were unable to determine that it was GZ screaming on the 911 calls. I about busted out laughing. I assume again he wants the the state to divulge their experts opinions and do the work for them. Interesting he admitted he was having such a hard time confirming it was his client screaming.

    • I don’t know what he hopes to accomplish with an evidentiary hearing. No reason for a hearing if experts on both sides say it isn’t his client.

      • JustMe says:

        Professor, what OMara stated in an interview with Jean Casares from HLN, is that his so called experts were all over the place and that he wanted to have a hearing to “long” hearing discuss these findings. WTH?? lol

      • Bill Taylor says:

        simple common sense says why on earth would the person holding the weapon taking aim being crying out in sheer terror and pleading for his life?

        NO 911 call has any sounds of fighting at all, no witness heard any head hitting concrete(it DOES make a rather loud noise), the person crying out for help was UNmuffled(fogen claims at that period of time he was being smothered by both Martins hands another miraculous thing btw his magic hands repelled DNA).

        common sense = there is NO WAY on earth fogen was the person pleading for his life.

        and after hearing that pleading the DEPRAVED mind pulled the trigger!

      • ladystclaire says:

        Amen to that Professor!

      • Rachael says:

        @Bill Taylor:

        “and after hearing that pleading the DEPRAVED mind pulled the trigger!”

        And after that, there was no more screaming.

    • elcymoo says:

      Did Bernie say something toward the end of the last hearing about the 911 tape of the screams still undergoing analysis? Something seems to have O’Mara worried:

      Cries for help: Is it Zimmerman or Trayvon?

      By Amanda Sloane
      updated 3:37 PM EDT, Tue April 30, 2013

      Defense attorney Mark O’Mara said Tuesday that a 911 call could be the key piece of evidence in the case against George Zimmerman. In the background of the audio recording, you can hear someone screaming for help.

      If it’s Zimmerman, O’Mara said it shows that the night watchman was the one under attack “and documents his story completely — it also documents his injuries.” If, however, it’s 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s voice on the recording, then it could show Zimmerman was “acting in a very aggressive way toward him,” O’Mara said.

      So which one is it?

      O’Mara told In Session correspondent Jean Casarez that witnesses for the prosecution and the defense can’t seem to agree. So, he wants to have a hearing to decide if anyone should be able to testify about the voice at all.

      Should jurors be able to decide for themselves whom they hear on the call?

      • manberk says:

        @elcymoo Thats the interview I was referring to.

        “So, he wants to have a hearing to decide if anyone should be able to testify about the voice at all.”

        I guess thats his angle right there.

        • The defense cannot succeed in excluding the recorded 911 call on the basis that experts cannot agree who is shrieking for help. As I’ve said before, the jury can determine who is screaming by the context. Any objections the defense might have to playing the tape will go to the weight of the evidence and not to its admissibility.

          There is no basis for a hearing and he should know that.

          EDIT: Translating from O’Mara-speak: He’s admitting that can’t prove his client is screaming, so he wants to exclude the recording.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sounds like he’s blowing smoke. How could that tape ever not be admitted?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        That is amazing. We know that 2 of the experts had no doubt that the person who was screaming was Trayvon. The defense must have a very difficult time finding an expert willing to testify that it was GZ.

        If that is the case, GZ can start packing.

      • O’Mara told In Session correspondent Jean Casarez that witnesses for the prosecution and the defense can’t seem to agree. So, he wants to have a hearing to decide if anyone should be able to testify about the voice at all.

        Should jurors be able to decide for themselves whom they hear on the call?

        There is no doubt.

        The tape will be admissible.

        Objections will go to the weight of the evidence, not to its admissibility.

        He knows that. He’s just trolling for more dollars by stirring up controversy that really does not exist.

      • LeaNder says:

        Yes, clearly a ruse. Whenever I see the politely balanced O’Mara now, I get suspicious, especially when he happens to grin into the camera at the wrong moment:

        MOM: There are experts right now who do a voice analysis or voice recognition on the 911 call, so far the witnesses that we had and some are on our side they are quite honestly all over the board. I thought it was easy to tell, whose voice that was, but from an expert perspective it’s not. So rather than having a number of different expert out there testifying and a number of different modalities. I think that we need a hearing to determine that the judge may decide nobody can testify. And just let the jury listen to the tapes and make their own decision.

        Question how significant is the tape?

        MOM: It is the most significant piece of evidence in the case. Because if it is GZ it documents his story completely and also documents his injuries. You know the thought is someone screaming for help is *** injured. If it turned out to be conclusively Trayvon Martin it would document that George was acting in a very aggressive way towards him. So it is ugly significant. I am just frustrated by the fact that there does not seem to be any good evidence to support anyone, whoever it is. I thought it was clearly GZ’s voice (grins into the camera), but now we are not gonna have experts on either side.

        So, he wants to have the experts thrown out and hopes the jury will “reasonably” decide that since Fogen had such “horrific wounds” it must have been him. Just as rationally as some witnesses did that night. And this experts only will complicated matters. Would he like to have Nelson throw out Fogen’s voice reenactment too, accidentally?

        Yes, I have already noticed a slight dislike for expertise in phonetics in the Fogen camp. Maybe Diwataman and Jeralyn can witness as more jury friendly amateur voice recognition and scream analysis experts with their respective software tools.


        I vaguely remember BDLR hinting at two voices at one point. Much too complicated? Fogen can show off the little blood dot on the tip of his nose?

      • LeaNder says:

        This is carefully planned and formulated. Remember the argument concerning Tracy (Photo: February 28, 2012, 10:32:45)

        but from an expert perspective it’s not.

        Notice the way he puts it, this allows the attack on Tracy Martin to continue, he is not an expert after all. But yes in that context the experts may well support Tracy’s spontaneous reactions and not father Zimmerman’s. Even more after listening to the reenactment. Is this part of the underlying reason? Is it really so easy to recognize screams?

        I wish so much these sick tactics will backfire.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Two Sides, he’s blowing smoke alright, right out of his ass!

      • Let me guess. O’Mara wants the tape excluded because Trayvon was screaming and it’s obvious. Is that about right? Did I leave anything out?

        BTW, Fred is writing a post related to this, thank you.

      • Rachael says:

        That O’Mara is something else!

      • pat deadder says:

        Jesus I hope he didn’t actually call him the night watchman.

    • kllypyn says:

      He knows damned well it’s not his client screaming. So does his murdering client. He needs to stop playing games. If his stupid client had used those donation as they were intended they be able to hire experts. Although i think they would rather not hire them because they wouldn’t have liked what they would have said.

      • lurker says:

        Just based on what was going around the news when those tapes first came out, it would seem that the issue of whose voice it is could easily be reduced to a case of duelling experts. Not to mention that the FBI analysis could not come up with a conclusion on that point.

        My thinking is that the more important finding from analysis of that tape would be if other sounds (or voices) can be picked up, along with what they might be saying.

        Any inconclusiveness of experts with regard to who is screaming isn’t likely to play for Z, to my mind. A jury, left to make their own conclusion is not going to hear those screams as a man with a gun calling his neighbors to come help.

      • Tzar says:

        Let’s do some “word” problems kids:

        if (man+gun+says unarmed kid is an asshole and a coon) and then (man+gun)x( in proximity of unarmed kid) = that man will say: _______

        b)you’re gonna fucking die
        c)you’ve got a problem now
        d)what are you doing around here
        e)all of the above except a

        this is not very complicated

    • colin black says:

      Well just ask his client he says it doesnt sound anything like him.
      Becuase he knows it isnt him he was there.

      • lurker says:

        Remember O’Mara’s subpeona for any and all tape recordings of Trayvon’s voice for the last three years. I think he was hoping to get an expert to swear that the screaming voice could not be Trayvon’s, or alternatively (since so many were inconclusive) that it was MORE likely to be Z’s than Trayvons.

        I’m’ guessing nothing helpful turned up.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Exactly Colin his words, “that don’t sound ANYTHING LIKE ME!” those were the words of the defendant as spoken to officer Serino, when he played the 911 tape for the idiot.

        Fogen may as well stop beating around the proverbial bush and own his crime because, he has no defense now and he never will because, he is guilty as hell. he shot and killed a child in cold blood and, all the ignorant supporters in the world, can’t help his fat ass out of what he caused for himself.

    • pat deadder says:

      manberk I bet he could scour the globe and not find an expert to say it was gz screaming.No expert is going to ruin his reputation to say that BS.There have been two experts on TV saying it is not gz.

  19. Yeah…Raw data like the creationists timeline?……..I wonder where gods plans for fogen are on that timeline?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Evidence likely lies in Dead Sea Scrolls and Omar will seek a continuance while those are studied for conclusive God’s plan proof.

      • LMAO 🙂

        Permagrin successfully installed 🙂

      • racerrodig says:

        If so, and the Dead Sea Scrolls provide any evidence, then I can give Moron O’ Mara Indiana Jones phone number…..his best bet for expert reports and testimony……Hell, I think I’ll alert Sundance Crackpot at the Outhouse !!!

  20. two sides to a story says:

    Yup. Sounds like that $40k for office upgrades would have been better used to hire some experts.

    • looneydoone says:

      two sides,
      That $40k expenditure is dwarfed by other unnecessary expenditures, including, but not limited to;
      $80k to bondsman, on second bond release

      $67k for 3 weeks executive level, round the clock armed security ($27k of which is unpaid, and basis for AIS lawsuit against O’Mara and the defendant)

      extended stay hotel accommodations for defendant, family & security detail

      $5k+ monthly living expenses for the defendant( and wife ?)

      they’ve pissed away close to a half million dollars in “donations” in less than 15 months !

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That security plan is off the charts stupid as well. What were they thinking? And of course, he really blew it with the bond.

      • towerflower says:

        Poor Georgie, he spent himself right into jail.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I thought they were banking on the NBC lawsuit as an even bigger payday which is why there were no caps put on any spending. And then reality hit when NBC filed that scathing Affidavit pretty much calling the trio trash out on all their BS.

        Everything the trio trash tries, bites them in the you-know-what! That is exactly what they get for trying to make a circus out of this murder of a child – there is no defense!

    • looneydoone says:

      two sides,
      re; excessive security and the $27k AIS lawsuit
      As Chris Rumbaugh, AIS stated….”in hindsight we can see that george zimmermann fraudulently inflated security expenses in preparation for a lawsuit against NBC”

      • lurker says:

        That’s interesting. Not to mention another bad idea that didn’t quite pan out as expected.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Not to mention the money that was spent for a security detail that WASN’T needed. even though they owe them money still, they wasted money that was paid out to this company and, then dumped them while still owing them money for which they are being sued for.

      This defense and it’s client are getting what they damn deserve. why all the concern about what’s on Trayvon’s phone, when what’s on Fogen’s phone is more relevant and under court seal. this defense has really made a JOKE out of this case, when it shouldn’t be.

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