Sunday, January 27, 2013
Tonight we feature Whonoze narrating his splendid video that pulls the case together thoroughly debunking the defendant.
This video is awesome and well worth your time. Please watch it through from start to finish.
Caution: It begins with the shriek and the shot.
Here’s his comment introducing the video.
Speaking of evidence that will conflict with Zimmerman’s story…
After literally months in the making the “BCClist clucbhouse security footage + police call audio analysis” video is now completed and up on YouTube:
“Less is more” it ain’t. It’s over 47 minutes long. Hopefully it’s concrete and detailed in ways previous presentations have not been, and more firmly establishes the nature of some of GZ’s key falsehoods.
Fred
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Trayvon doesn’t show up in any of the videos. Video quality is low, so if Trayvon had been walking in the middle of the road instead of on the sidewalk, that video may not have registered him. I think the most likely scenario is that he came in through the front gate, in which case he wouldn’t have passed any of the cameras.
Personally I don’t think the guy in the bank video is Osterman. In the first place I don’t think he looks like him, but also because of the car the bank guy was driving, which looked like a sedan or hatchback. GZ’s father and Osterman were present at the walk through the following day. They are standing near the truck parked at the cut-through.
I checked the cars parked at the side of the roads on both RVC and TTL in the re-enactment video. I only saw 2 cars that were not parked in driveways. Both cars were suv’s or something similar.
I think the most likely scenario is that someone living in the complex saw Trayvon standing in the mail shed, and contacted GZ. Six cars past by the mail area after Trayvon arrived there and before GZ showed up.
The most interesting information is probably in GZ’s phone records.
@ Amsterdam –
Re:
“I think the most likely scenario is that someone living in the complex saw Trayvon standing in the mail shed, and contacted GZ. Six cars past by the mail area after Trayvon arrived there and before GZ showed up.”
Agree. WhoNoze’s video decided that for me. Some resident stopped and picked up his/her mail that rainy night, spotted Trayvon, who was talking on his cellphone, decided this was some “young crook” talking to an accomplice – called GZ from either his/her car or as soon he/she got home. Maybe Jeremy’s partner on the HOA? Jeremy didn’t seem all that surprised the altercation was going on, but Jeremy’s partner wouldn’t go near the scene and was hiding out, afraid of the violence. Being on the HOA Board, she was aware of complaints of GZ carrying a gun. She was the most afraid of all, on the 911 calls. She knew GZ could shoot.
It could be anybody. GZ’s name and telephone number were in the newsletter as the person to contact for NW related issues. He also knocked some doors and gave out business cards.
Exactly, and since it is nothing illegal, why is it being kept secret? I’m pretty sure that if some disinterested party had called GZ about this, they’d have come forward and said so by now. That means that anyone who did call GZ with this info, is likely more closely connected to these events in some way.
@Lonnie and Amsterdam,
As a resident in the community you would just as likely call your HOA contact if you spotted an “outsider” who concerned you, rather than your NW guy (who seems to have alarmed a number of residents)from the viewpoint of “I don’t know if this is anything, or what … but … “)
If you have not lived in an HOA-run development you would be surprised how dependent/demanding residents are on their HOA because, frankly, in our society most people shrink from direct interfacing with their neighbors – they look to the HOA to be their personal “enforcers.”
I serve on my HOA Board and my viewpoint is “I am not your personal Sheriff” and find that a gentle schmoozing resolves issues (most of the time.) But a lot of HOAs seem to be run by folks who delight in bringing out “their inner Nazi.”
In the case of Trayvon’s death, do you think anybody is going to speak up and say, “My Gosh, I set this whole tragedy in motion!” They would keep their mouth shut.
What strikes me in the 911 call is that Jeremy semed familiar with whom he observed and knew one of the participants – GZ, I expect.
Yet his wife frantically hid; spoke of her fear of being injured by the fracas and later refused to look at the photof of GZ’s injured face when it was offered to her – and in the follow-up interview by LE was cool as a cucumber; guarded and curt — clearly indicating she felt she had no responsibility, wanted to prject that she had no involvement with the tragic event.
Basically, it sounded like “I don’t want to get sued.”
I any case, if GZ were tipped off that a “stranger” who happpened to be a young black male was on-site at the mail kiosk, I can see him flying out of the house without shopping list or funds/credit card for groceries,
then lurking around the Club House until he spotted his target and instead of going up to Trayvon when he saw him and introducing himself as a neighbor and NW, he WANTED Trayvon to head out, so he could act out his Uber-Cop fantasy of surveillance and “assisting arrest.”
Trayvon did, and tragedy ensued.
@PiranhaMom
It could be anybody, including Jeremy and w11. We tend to focus on the people we know about and project things onto them. My impression of w11 is that she showed an obvious bias during the interview. I also had the impression w11, Jeremy and John shared their cliff notes before they made their statements. I don’t think they were the ones that contacted GZ, but I could be wrong.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone didn’t want to be involved after Trayvon was murdered. But if someone called GZ, prosecution should know about that person.
Outstanding work!!!
Q: Is there anything on the clubhouse videos that would indicate TM walking past the windows (before he took shelter by mail “shed”)?
And it would be fascinating to see a similar “prequel” timeline based on Osterman’s presence at the bank ATM (there’s a timestamp on it), the path/speculated time of TM returning from 7-11, and if these two (Osterman and TM) could have crossed paths!
Since fogenphoole obviously did not “happen upon” TM by the shortcut (as clearly illustrated by your video analysis), it appears that fogen was given a heads-up that a suspicious “target” was coming fogen’s way . . . was the heads-up from Osterman who saw TM walking on the road? Was that why fogen [quickly] left his home without a shopping list or grocery money?
Excellent work by everyone involved.
Wonderful post thank you for taking the time to put this together as a criminal justice student I have been following this case since the beginning!!!!!!!
New Post Up:
We are Having a Great Discussion
@whonoze
Did you see this on page 33 of the Serino drafts for Zimmerman’s charging documents?
I don’t know what to make of the time he’s saying the shot was fired.
I’m guessing the call being referred to is from W11. The rest of his timeline is sure as heck messed up, but I’ve not seen the event report for her call to note the time of the call. Have you?
I’m curious about that time of 7:17:20 pm as the time of the shot because, if that time is accurate, it cuts down even more the timing of W13 getting outside his house to snap the pic of the back of Zimmerman’s head at 7:19:07 pm.
That would mean from the time this dude was supposedly inside his home putting furniture together, he was snapping away at the head of a bloody killer with a gun, 107 seconds after hearing a shot being fired.
That doesn’t make a bit of sense to me.
Yeah, the timeline in Serino’s report is totally full of shit, and I was on that back in May:
Since then, the official documents released by the prosecution have confirmed the 7:09:34 start time of the NEN call, and the start times of all the 911 calls as originally reported by ClickOrlando. So the timing of the shot is exactly as i’ve always had it: 7:16:56.
So, the timeline in Serino’s report is old news, dead wrong, and what to make of it is just another example of how stupid the SPD can be.
It occurs to me that Serino might have been instructed, in no uncertain terms, to point out that the screams came from Fogen. He says, “Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease.” It sounds like a joke sentence! It sounds like somebody writing up something to mock the person who told him to write it. Like:
“Wife batted her face violently into Husband’s fists” or “child aggressively undressed and flung herself against stranger lurking on a park bench” or something like that. “Shot fired; shooter stops screaming immediately” — think of it!
Also LLMpappas observation that foggen states in the reconstruction vt.
After he shot one time he thought Trayvon was giveing up .
Said he thought Trayvon realised he had a gun after the shot an wasnt going to fight anymore.
When his entire premise for shooting was because Trayvon had seen the gun an told him he was going to die tonight.
Reached for the weapon so had to shoot.
Contradicts himself contantly.
Colin, Colin, Colin… You simply aren’t giving GZ the credit he deserves. You, of all people, should realize what it means that Fogen can’t remember a huge list of things he can easily cite. So, it should not be a surprise that GZ forgot that Trayvon had reached for and was struggling with him for the gun, he had forgotten he had drawn. Having forgotten about all that, means he isn’t lying but merely forgetting. GZ forgets all the time, in fact he’s trying to get MOM to get him off by explaining to the judge that he forgot what he did that night. He had forgotten about the NW rules and he forgot about the law, and he forgot about what he did and he forgot where he was. Now, if that doesn’t make him a hero I have no idea what will.
Oh yeah, GZ wants to thank you all for forgetting his name, now he want you to convince the courts to do the same. š
Lonnie, LOL LOL!!!
He’ll come to court and say he forgot that he didn’t shoot Trayvon Martin; he forgot that in fact his gun had no bullets in it that night, so he COULDN’T have killed Trayvon Martin! Some foreign guy named “Fogen” did it. Probably an Arab!
@ Xena and anyone else:
By all means feel free to repost the video anywhere and everywhere. Naturally, i would like it to get as much exposure as possible. My perhaps Quixotic hope is that it’s concrete enough to be ‘newsworthy’ and re-awaken some national media interest in the Martin case.
@whonoze
Thanks for permission. Right now, the video is hot and with Trayvon’s birthday coming up and the next hearing, I’m thinking that I’ll dedicate a post to it afterwards — kinda re-kindle the fires of interest.
@LLMPapa
A humble suggestion:
Hi Papa:
It occurs to me that there would be value in a long form video composed of a compilation of the best of your observations, structured and organized into some kind of coherent summary argument about what is revealed via Zimmerman’s many statements and their contradictions with the physical evidence. The video I’m imagining would be a bit more sober in tone than your typical style: no snark at “genius”, no “Lion Sleeps Tonight” etc.
You have so much good stuff: the extension of the arm, the gravity effect of the blood trails, the last chilling comparison of GZ’s robotically similar descriptions of two different events, and that’s just for starters. I’m suggesting there could be a synergy here, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and gains power through its consistency and the sheer number of incidents.
Anyway, it’s just a thought. Keep up the good work!
whonoze
(I tried to send this as a PM on YT, but I see you very sensibly have your messaging blocked…)
Thanks. All I can say is I’ll give it some thought. I’ve kinda developed a style of staying on his azz, picking at any bunch of bs that catches my eye.
As for no snark? Damn, my friend, you’re driving a hard bargain, LOL.
Maybe mini snarks, just no Snarkelosaurus! š
Oddly maybe, the more comments I read dissenting from my speculation on TM’s and GZ’s paths during ‘the missing two minutes’ the better I feel about my hypothesis. The different interpretations are all over the place, and mine seems kind of comfortably in the middle. Something I mentioned on the BCC diaapora: the animations wind up driving the theory, not so much vice versa. It’s really hard to get the little rectangles moving around in ways that both fit the known data points, and correspond to believable speeds. For example, i tied putting GZ’s first parking position closer to the bend on TTL, and everything just fell apart. That’s where I though it should have been, but the time and space clues of making the animation were saying, in effect, “no, it has to be farther back…”
By the same token, I’ve had the “GZ went to RVC to check the back gate, walked south and then around to the dogwalk” hypothesis for some time, but I’d never plotted it out in time and space exactly. After my experience with the other animations, i was fully prepared to have it NOT work out, and to have to change my conjecture accordingly. But it all fell into place very easily, which tells me that it truly is plausible.
To respond to a couple questions that have been posed: Trayvon would not have gone to his father’s house while he knew GZ was observing him. He certainly would not have wanted ‘creepy man’ to know where he (and Chad( lived.
It may seem counter-intutive when you look at the map, which renders the scene in daylight, but GZ had good reasons NOT to go down the dogwalk in his pursuit of TM. Placing the NEN call events in space shows Trayvon would have had a big lead on GZ after he took off running. The dogwalk is dark, and GZ would have had little chance of catching up to someone with that lead, in that darkness, by following them directly, especially if that person was indeed heading for the back gate as GZ suspected. It also would have placed GZ in a more vulnerabkle position compared to travelling down the more well-lit RVC. GZ would have understood that his best bet was to get a visual bead on where he ‘expected’ his subject to be, and then work back from there.
Any attempt by GZ to head TM off before he could get away out the back gate would have been best accomplished in his truck. NO ONE would have gotten out of their vehicle to watch the suspect running away. There was no way GZ, alone, could have caught him. I can’t let go of the third party. Sorry.
In the video some time around where GZ is shining his lights into the mail shed, he seems to back his truck away. In the next few minutes while the NeN call is playing, if you look carefully down at the lower right corner of the hall video/mail shed. You see what could be the result of emergency flashers somewhere nearby, perhaps reflecting off of a wet surface. Perhaps, GZ could have parked and instead of going over to RVC, he had Osterman waiting for him, parked just out of sight of the hall camera, which picked up his emergency flashers. GZ simply runs up and hangs onto Osterman’s truck and gets a quick lift to the back gate.
As TM appears, heading for his fathers house, GZ springs forward and TM hears him and turns to run for it. TM reports that GZ is behind him again, not that he has had to turn away from the house, because he doesn’t want to give away where he’s staying.
There are so many possibilities, good thing the SP’s success is not dependent upon any of them.
Why would Zimmerman run down RVC as opposed to TTL which also was well-lit? I tend to believe that when Zimmerman saw Martin run down the T, he also him saw cut right(south) down the dog walk. His best bet would have been to run down TTL to the break in the buildings in order to catch up with and/or stop Martin from getting to the back entrance. I’m not understanding why someone would east in order to catch someone running south.
I’m with you — this seems most plausible. It would be illuminating to see this theoretical path of pursuit/confrontation animated while the NEN and 911 calls are playing.
It really seems apparent that fogen SAW Trayvon begin to head south at the T (see all of fogen’s words in NEN call, statements, interviews, etc. — just as a stopped clock is right twice a day, a POS lying to evade murder charges will speak truth a couple times in his self-serving fabricated stories). In context, “He’s running” means, from fogen’s perspective, that the effing coonpunkgoon was making a run for escape out the back entrance. Fogen IMMEDIATELY jumps out of his truck TO CUT OFF THE ESCAPE ROUTE (in my assessment). The most logical (and shortest) path to cut off the escape route of “The Kid” was for fogen to run south on TTL (parallel to TM’s path) to the break in the buildings. Not only is this path faster, it allows the element of SURPRISE — enabling fogen to ambush/confront/detain TM.
We call him fogen as we wish to forget his name or at least promote Trayvons an not his
Deborah says:
January 28, 2013 at 12:29 pm
As you all know Trayvonās birthday is February 5th. we would like to commemorate that event in some way. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we might do that on our Justice for Trayvon Martin Facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/JusticeforTrayvon?fref=ts. Our page is the first FB page to be set up seeking justice for this slain child. We set it up on March 9th, 2012, the day after this case started being reported in mainstream media. If you have any ideas on how we might mark ttrayvonās 18th birthday, please send us a message on the FBpage.
BTW I have been reading and sharing your posts on Mr. Leathermanās blog for months now but I missed the āFogenā derivation. Why do you all call zimmerman āFogenā?
Reply
How about a release of 18 balloons nine white nine black to be let go into the sky.
Outside the courtroom just as fogen makes his entrance.
Would make a powerful statement.
FOGEN: stands for the forgoten one. Someone shared that during trials for natzi war ceimes they did not want to lionize names of Nazi criminals so they substituded “may his name be forgotten”. Shortened FOGEN.
I like that idea.
I’ve already viewed it 4 times so far. In the pool hall section it seems like there’s a set of vehicle flashers being picked up? Also I noted that the headlight goes left then comes back to the right, as though the vehicle is backing up and maneuvering.
I discovered an interesting article by a member of the German web community of the weekly “Der Freitag” ( friday ). The context is a debate around ADHS drugs between a person that is prescribed the drug and a medical/psychological expert. The response of the medical expert caught my attention. Admittedly the article was triggered by Ritalin not Adderal, but strictly the more general things he has to say about the handling of the prescription of drugs for ADHS is highly interesting in our case.
He mentions that ADHS drugs often have to be combined with other drugs, just as we see in the case of Fogen.
But more interestingly he writes that what he watches happening is that the subscription of ADHS drugs are usually not based on a thorough study of the case or a thorough diagnosis in which other possible sources of the observable problem are excluded first before prescribing the drug. He cites two central possible sources: schizophrenia and psychosis. And that ADHS occurs very, very rarely in adults.
Below a passage that caught my attention. I somehow seem to be unable to translate the whole site and give you the link, but they use some odd software over there on the community section too. Never encountered any site before that Google couldn’t translate.
In any case, I translate the relevant section as far as our case in concerned.
I’m curious about your claim that ADHD occurs rarely in adults – not so! If you have ADD or ADHD during your childhood, you may learn how to better cope with it by the time you’re an adolescent or an adult, but the condition never goes away. There are manygrown folks in my family with ADD or ADHD, including myself (ADD). There are thought to be some factors that might contribute to the condition in addition to heredity, and the numbers of people having these conditions seems to be either continuing to climb or at least are better recognized than in the past. When I was in school I was yelled at a lot for being distracted and there was no such diagnosis at the time – you were thought to be lazy or unruly – however, I managed to get good grades and learned how to copeand better concentrate without intervention. But I was lucky in that regard.Many people can’t do it without the help of drugs.
I agree. It is a lot more common in adults than people realize. It has been associated with kids for so long that no onw realized it, but it is now for adults where it was once for kids before being recognized.
Rachael~ AGREED! I’m an adult ADHD. Luckily, I discovered that teaching channels that energy productively. If I’M bored, you better believe the kids are. I keep everything hopping.
thanks, for the feedback. I am a skeptic about the pharmaceutical market, and drugs and drug fashions. Which does not mean I criticize your position. That’s just me. I am not trying to tell anybody what to do with his body.
Fact is, I think GZ is disturbed.
I had a diagnosed thyroid dysfunction and was told I would need to swallow pills regularly till the end of my life. these pills have no side effects they are simply the hormone the thyroids produce. I didn’t and by now the hormone values are good aggain, better then when I was prescribed the pills for life. I worked for a pharmaceutical giant for a while, many things I learned there were highly cynical. Obviously I am aware that there are different issues and in some it not only makes sense but is also absolutely necessary, even life saving. … You have no idea how markets enter consideration the bigger the group the more returns. I watched such matters often.
But strictly, I would need to look much more into it. And if I hadn’t this feeling of something is wrong with GZ, it wouldn’t have drawn my attention, to start with. In any case it wasn’t my intention to insult anybody, I yaguely remember something Rachel wrote when I write it and expected protest.
Peace. š
I made a mistake in my comments by the way, it was discussion pro and con not by someone taking pills.
We will never know but I hypothesized back on bcc.list that GZ was on steroids and had roid rage. His body changed so drastically from muscular/ large build to much smaller..see Hannity interview. Of course, it ballooned up at court appearance.
No one commented but it was a much smaller body type in just two months or so.
His behavior was passive phone in multiple calls but there wasn’t straight on aggression like he displayed that night, in years, since 2006, when he was a bouncer at those illegal parties. So no arrest for fighting and noticeable body change. It would also fit with his desire to emulate his corrupt friend Osterman. Need to be big strong but not going to do that gym work. Pop some pills instead.
Only Shelly would be able to bring that out. That would be the prosecutors reason to slam her with perjury. If they arrested everyone who lies there would be no room in jail for really bad guys. Angela Corey’s office is tough (I live in Jax…she has a bulldog reputation.
Wonder if he was on steroids (for muscle build up) at the time of the shooting.
As you all know Trayvon’s birthday is February 5th. we would like to commemorate that event in some way. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we might do that on our Justice for Trayvon Martin Facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/JusticeforTrayvon?fref=ts. Our page is the first FB page to be set up seeking justice for this slain child. We set it up on March 9th, 2012, the day after this case started being reported in mainstream media. If you have any ideas on how we might mark ttrayvon’s 18th birthday, please send us a message on the FBpage.
BTW I have been reading and sharing your posts on Mr. Leatherman’s blog for months now but I missed the “Fogen” derivation. Why do you all call zimmerman “Fogen”?
The more I examine the evidence released by Florida and under discussion here, the more horrible of a person the murderer appears, to where now I am grossed out even to mention his name.
Thanks for the response Cercando. I understand you entirely.
I suggested people send in 30sec videos and somebody would then make one video. I wanted to do a sign in a video that say’s. Happy Birthday Trayvon. Justice will be here real soon! Dallas, Texas
Whonoze, excellent work.
One of my wish lists for the trial.
Sean the dispatch guy is called as first wittness.
Walks into the courtroom and he is African American.
nest = near
see = seen
This has to be one of our best discussion pages to date. š
X2 I’m still reading. Great to see you YAHTC
Good to see you also, kindheart!
Kindheart,
So happy you are now a regular here
I’m not difficult to contact (I’ll just have to devise a code the treehouse lurkers can’t decipher)
After TM had just nearly completed a 30min walk to and from the 7-11, “Right nest to his father’s house” could mean at the T to a 17 yr old, as well once he thought he had evaded the “Creepy Guy”, his 17 yr old mind told him he was safe in the area where no cars could get into (because he had only see Fogen in his car at this point) and he could see Brandy Greens house in sight… so he began to casually walk and talk to DD. Never expecting to Fogen to appear again and this time on foot and approaching him.
Martin didn’t even need to causaully walk for Zimmerman to catch up to him. If Martin broke speed simply to walk fast, and Zimmerman was running that would have been enough.
I agree with you post… my comment is in response to those who question why Trayvon never made it home since he told DD that he was “Right near to his father’s house”… he is 17, he felt he had lost Fogen he could see the house in sight and to him that is “Right near his father’s house”… I does not necessarily mean at the house next door… in comparison to where he had just come from, in his mind he was right there in the vicinity of safety and began to walk and talk to his girlfriend, before going in to watch the game… and he and DD must have had an agreement to talk during halftime… which is what he did on his walk to the store.
I does = It does
I agree with this, SoulSistaWoo.
That’s always been my impression as well, SSW. Being the parent of 4, I’ve witnessed many times how kids lollygag around with their phones in situations where they might want to be more cautious.
1. Zimmerman comes up BEHIND Trayvon as he is headed home and right by his “father’s house” according to Deedee. it is not hat to imagine scenarios for how this happened or how they got switched around or how trayvon got marched at gun point or simply chased towards a more SYG suitable location or simply evaded towards the most available direction.
2. the light pattern from the pool vid changes once Zimmerman parks to watch Trayvon, it never changes again, therefore I don’t believe the shruck ever moves again. The gust of wind you hear is coming as he runs past the space between houses in TTL and before he reaches the corner where ttl turns south can also be heard on the reenactment (5:54) (PS:marinadave should have given us the raw audio of hi walkthrough), seems to be a permanent airflow corridor
Exactly Tzar! When Zimmerman saw Martin turn down the dogwalk he got out of the truck and ran down the street/sidewalk on the western side of the building that Trayvon was behind, in order to make an attempt to cut Martin off. The reason being he wanted to chase Matin down without alerting him. Catch him by surprise. DD has said that Trayvon stopped running cause he was almost home. So, if Zimmerman IS running and Trayvon has slowed to a brisk walk, then that would give Zimmerman enough time to catch up.
The video analysis is good, but I can’t by the theory that Martin stopped to hide and that Zimmerman ran out of his way to catch Martin in the south.
I don’t contest that Trayvon may have hid nor that the killer went south out of “his way” (technically he was out of his way the moment his stopped going to Target, the moment he left his shruck, the moment he went past all those addresses on TTL that he was supposed to be looking for), I contest the idea that when Trayvon first spotted his killer, after having told deedee that he lost him, that they were face to face. Deedee testimony seems to directly contradict and supports the scenario that the killer was looming behind him.
No, I can’t buy Martin hiding when he was so close to home and he thought he had lost the “creepy guy”. I can’t buy Zimmerman ran across the T to RVC, and then south. It would have been easier and faster to get out of his truck and run down TTL to the break in the buildings. I supect they arrived at the break, or near the break roughly the same time.
this is the scenario I imagine too, I just have nothing material to support it and the timing demands some clueless meandering on the part of the killer and Mr. Martin.
I don’t think there was clueless meandering on Trayvon’s part; he thought the creepy guy was in a car and he wanted to keep chatting with DeeDee so he did. And I don’t think there was clueless meandering on Fogen’s part either; he headed down toward the back entrance and then cut off Trayvon who was headed south. Once Trayvon was “in” the confrontation he would have run anywhichway to get away from Fogen so we cannot figure out where the confrontation started. Remember, Trayvon counted on his SCREAMING being what would save him. He screamed more and more to alert everyone around, not realizing that NO AMOUNT OF SCREAMING would scare off his attacker because his attacker assumed himself authorized to stop, assault and even kill his prey. Normally a person being stalked and then confronted will think that if he screams enough, the attacker will flee precisely because he does not want to get caught! Trayvon had no way of knowing Fogen was a self-appointed suspect-killer on his own turf with real confidence that the police would give him a few free notches on his gun just for the sake of comaraderie!
“Normally a person being stalked and then confronted will think that if he screams enough, the attacker will flee precisely because he does not want to get caught! Trayvon had no way of knowing Fogen was a self-appointed suspect-killer on his own turf with real confidence that the police would give him a few free notches on his gun just for the sake of comaraderie!”
Good point, Malisha. Trayvon encountered the NW from hell that night.
Good point Malisha.
I wonder about the timeline. Even though we can tell when Zimmerman placed his call, we don’t know where he was. I don’t think he started the call at the clubhouse.
one can also wonder about the integrity of his audio call and their time stamps. I just don’t know, but forensics show definitively that he is lying and he has killed an unarmed child.
We know exactly where he was. He stopped in front of the mail boxes, he pulled away from the mail boxes and was heading east to make a uturn when he was connected to the nen.
So he either made his call while in front of the mail boxes and it took about 20 sec to get connected or he called while driving away from the mail boxes.
follow
Simply a question (laced with a dollop of speculation): Depending on the level of creepiness displayed by the defendant (plenty it appears), could it be Trayvon didn’t make a bee-line for the Green e/Martin residence because he didn’t want the fat creep to A.) know where he was staying, and B.) to expose anyone else in the unit (wasn’t a younger kid there?) to whatever was coming down from the creep?
My personal belief on this issue is that Trayvon did NOT think or assume that Fogen would get out of his car. Once “he ran,” he did not think he was in danger any more. Remember, he was on the phone with his girlfriend and hadn’t seen her in over a week and he was a teen-ager. OK? So he knows that once he’s in the house, he has to be “all game no phone” with his younger step-brother, so he wants to finish talking to DeeDee before going in. Since the creepy guy following him was in a car and not on foot, and since cars couldn’t drive where he was after leaving the mail shed, why should he now be alarmed and hurry?
When he spied Fogen coming from the South, between him and Brandi Green’s place, he told DeeDee he would “run from the back,” meaning evade Fogen by running around to the front door of the townhouse, not going directly past the creepy guy to get into the back of his townhouse. He started north to be able to follow that plan when Fogen caught up with him, and then he turned and faced the music and said, “Why are you following me?” Which Fogen interpreted (or flat out lied) as: “Yo, you got a fucking problem homie?”
then why, if he were heading north to get to the front of the house, did he not take the cut-through on the right – long before he ended up almost all the way at the northern end..?
Didn’t Martin make the statement how he was was going to enter the residence before he mentioned seeing Zimmerman again? I don’t think he saw Zimmerman, and then told DD his plan of running to the front.
That has been my speculation. Trayvon heading south on the dog walk is speculation too. We agree what happened on TTL, the videos show most of the movements GZ made in his car. What happened after that is speculation.
I think Trayvon must have run a lot longer to be as out of breath as Dee Dee describes. Dee Dee also doesn’t say Trayvon stopped for a while. She urges him to keep running when Trayvon tells her he had lost GZ, and he slows down from running to walking. She also said he was walking back again, when Trayvon notices GZ is following him again.
Amsterdam, If you have time, would you read the 142 discussion responses to one of my posts.
A gz supporter (ric) attempted to try to turn the discussion into speculation. Our team carried on a excellent discussion refuting his arguments.
Here is the link to the discussion where ric enters in:
.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/09/13201091-zimmerman-attorney-plans-to-call-for-stand-your-ground-hearing?pc=25&sp=1125&threadId=3537986#c70108424
I do not believe Fogen was alone… there are too many convenient coincidence.
First spotted at Frank Taffee house
Fogen at one point says he was looking for a police officer he phoned earlier
Mark Osterman a former SPD employee, at the bank in the area at 6:30PM
and arrives with his wife
Jeremy(John) debacle of lies
W13ā¦ Coming out immediately following the shooting to take pictures and discuss ammo
Office T. Smithā¦ killing all that time going around the retreat, changing peopleās statements
and telling them it was Fogen yelling
But most importantlyā¦ Fogen could not restrain a terrified and desperate TM by his shirt and shoot him as well. In addition to the fact that Fogen only had a speck of GSR on the back of his sholderā¦. IMO someone else (ie. the man in the white shirt) shot him while Fogen held him.
@yahtc,
I didn’t read all of them, but enough to get a good impression. The best reply I think is that we don’t know where they were after Trayvon ran.
I have tried out all the paths you can think of. None of the southern paths make sense to me. It just doesn’t fit the information we do have.
The only path I think does fit Dee Dee’s description, the time line and yes even GZ’s original statements is this one.
I think if the prosecution is going to speculate, this probably is what they will argue.
http://www.showme.com/sh/?h=F9g3C2i
The defense may turn around and use the “evidence” of someone moving north on the dog walk, but then the prosecution can refute that it was Trayvon.
How do you explain the evidence found south of Trayvon’s body? For example, his phone.
@yahtc
I was logged out, that is why my old handle is showing.
Amsterdam……Thanks for using the map with your active line drawing to show Trayvon’s path. Our Trayvon team at MSNBC especially likes that first path out to RVC that you drew.
I am going on some errands now. I wish I did not have to leave even for a short time while all of this discussion is going on.
I think he doesn’t take another cut-through because they’re darker and once he sees Fogen out there on foot, he’s afraid of darker places and wants to stay where, if he screams, he can be heard and where, if he needs help, there’s SOME light around for people to see him and help him and he can see well enough to protect himself. I think running into a smaller darker place is what we see in those movies where right at the last instant when the bad guy is about to kill the good guy, THEN there’s the big rescue. Trayvon Martin was not on reality-TV; there was no big rescue; he was counting on SOMEONE helping him. He was trying to stay in the light and not go into a dark area with a creepy guy behind him.
Your path that Martin took is interesting, but it doesn’t take into account that Zimmerman said that Martin was heading toward the back(south) entrance. Your map has Martin going north, then east, and then south and then west. If Martin ran north, then why would Zimmerman claim he went towards the back gate?
@Eric
GZ assumed Trayvon ran to the back entrance because “that is how they always got away”. At least that was a statement he’d made in one of his earlier phone calls to the police.
In GZ’s first written statement he writes Trayvon disappeared in the darkness. In his first interview he tells Singleton Trayvon duck between 2 houses. In his early statements he doesn’t know where Trayvon went the first time he disappeared. He also neglects to mention that is when he jumped out of his car.
I think GZ’s description of Trayvon appearing and then walking onto the dog path the second time, mimicks real events. I just believe the second time happened after he got of the phone and he followed Trayvon on the dog walk.
I think GZ may very well have run towards RVC because he thought he could cut Trayvon off on his way to the east gate.
GZ parked his car in front the first gap between the houses. Maybe he saw Travon heading east on RVC.
Anyway it is a matter of deduction, this path fits everything else we know better than other paths in my opinion.
@malisha,
I think he was afraid, that is why it doesn’t make sense to me that he ran and then just stopped to continue his conversation with DeeDee.
The path south just doesn’t fit Dee Dees’ description. She never said he stopped moving, he was running and then slowed down to walking.
One thing adults, who are not physical ed buffs forget is, youths get tired quickly and run out of breath because they don’t know how to pace themselves. Sure they are more resilient and have better physical shape than adults and they are lighter as well. But, when they are frightened or euphoric, they tend to go all out in an unsustainable blast.
An all out run of just a few yards can leave one too out of breath to continue running. Even runners doing the 100 yard dash, have to save something for the finish line. Often they need oxygen to catch up their breathing. We can expect that an all out dash of some 60 to 70 yards would have left TM too out of breath to continue running. Not being a trained athlete he would not know to pace himself so that he could make it all the way home. He also would not have been running very efficiently either, because he has no training there either.
Maybe someone who wants more info can google up a doctor or other medical/physical ed person on the net and find out the real story about perseverance.
Professor
I don’t think any evidence was found south of Trayvon’s body. The map specifically states it was not to scale.
Willisnewton did a great job superimposing the flashlight and Trayvon’s body’s position as photographed by w13 with the evidence markers,
Thank you.
I had not realized they were found that close to his body.
That would indicate he was attacked at that spot, contraindicating a chase N/B or S/B, given Dee Dee’s narrative of her conversation with Trayvon.
@yahtc
It is good to hear there are some people that share my hypothe sis. I think it was the second one because of timing.
Check the location when GZ says Trayvon is running.
This was just a conversation piece for the bcclist gang. I don’t have the skills or the patience to put a video together the way Whonoze did.
@masonblue
I don’t know why, but that photo shocked me.
Trayvon’s belongings are south and GZ’s north, which seems to fit GZ following Trayvon from the T on the dog walk and Trayvon turning around to ask GZ why he was following him.
But surely that contact could not have taken approximately 2 minutes after the NEN call ended. Wouldn’t the contact have been much sooner, if it had happened that way?
Professor
It has been a while since I calculated how much time it would’ve taken Trayvon if he had taken the northern route I proposed in the show me. But as I remember it, it took about the time from Trayvon running until the confrontation took place.
I am speculating Trayvon ran north, and started walking back towards the cut-through after he thought he’d lost GZ.
GZ could’ve been anywhere on RVC or even on TTL, when he spotted Trayvon entering the cut-through and started to follow him again to the dog walk. According to Dee Dee, Trayvon said GZ was gaining on him and GZ was also out of breath.
It fits GZ’s statements or at least his warped impression of the events.
In his first 2 statements, Trayvon disappeared the first time. In the Singleton interview Trayvon ducked between 2 houses. GZ doesn’t know where he went. I am proposing this is when Trayvon ran north and GZ jumped out of his car.
He sees Trayvon appearing from the darkness, and then he disappears again, but this time GZ sees him entering the dog walk. I think this is what happened after GZ got of the phone.
Next Trayvon suddenly shows up on the dog walk and questions GZ. I think GZ jogged towards Trayvon when he saw him again and followed him on the dog walk. About where the altercation took place Trayvon turned around and asked him why GZ was following him.
It explains the missing minutes and why Trayvon was out of breath.
I also think it fits Dee Dee’s statement. Trayvon ran, he thought he’d lost the guy. Dee Dee urges him to run to his father’s
house, but Trayvon says he is going to run from the back because it is easier. He starts walking back again. Dee Dee urges Trayvon to keep running, but he slows down to walking speed and tells her he is near his father’s house. I think he said this as an explanation for why he stopped running, but he was probably out of breath.
As he enters the cut-through he notices GZ is following him again, Dee Dee again urges him to run, but Trayvon decided probably that GZ was gaining on him too fast so he turned around and faced GZ instead.
I can’t refute your theory but I don’t believe he would have run north because there isn’t anyplace to go there except to another street in the neighborhood.
Professor,
I calculated the distance Trayvon must have been running and walking the northern path. It is about 950 ft. It is about 270 ft from TTl to get behind the houses on the other side of RVC. So let’s assume he ran that part. Walking speed is between 3.5 and 4ft per second, running is double that speed. Trayvon was a tall guy so let’s assume he would run 8ft per sec. That would mean about 34 sec running. That leaves 680 ft walking distance to get him back to where the altercation took place. That would be another 2 min and 50 sec. That is a total of 3 min 24 seconds. We think they were facing each other at about 7:15:30. Trayvon started running around 7:11:40. I think that is pretty close.
Prof
The only reason I can think of, is that he didn’t want GZ to follow him home.
But that is not the reason I came up with this theory. None of the other paths cover Dee Dees’ statements, the length of time Trayvon was gone and the location the altercation took place.
If Trayvon ran south far enough to be out of breath, I don’t think the altercation would’ve taken place so far north.
If Trayvon was hiding near the place where the altercation took place, he wouldn’t have been out of breath and in that case he was hiding for 3.5 to 4 minutes. Dee Dee has Trayvon moving the entire time.
I just haven’t heard a plausible theory for Trayvon going south where all these elements are included.
When Fogen is doing his re-enactment, you can tell (when he is still in the squad car, describing his conversation with the NEN dispatcher) that he either imagines that the NEN guy was as alarmed as he, Fogen, was, or he is pretending that was the case. Either he lies to make it seem that Sean was very much “into” finding “the guy” and apprehending him (nothing would seem farther from the truth, of course) or he really believes that Sean has become as excited, as alarmed, as freaked out, as “adrenalin-rich” as Fogen himself was (or pretended to be) during that call.
Fogen says, for instance, “He asked me if I could get somewhere where I could see the guy” and “he asked where I was” and “they needed an address” and all those things that never happened. In either Fogen’s fevered mind or in the scenario he is “selling” to cover a real FIRST-DEGREE MURDER PLOT, he would have it play out this way:
Fogen: I see a suspicious guy.
Sean: How come?
Fogen: Black male, sauntering, hoodie, looking about, checking me out, up to no good, probably a criminal.
Sean: OMG! WHERE?
Fogen: Right here! Oh shit, he ran.
Sean: OMG, he ran? Where to, for Heaven’s sake, where TO?
Fogen: Down there, headed toward the back entrance of the neighborhood!
Sean: OMG. Not the back entrance, please, are you sure?
Fogen: Now Sean, take it easy, I can take care of this if the swat team doesn’t make it on time. I’ve been a hero on TV before.
Sean: Really? OMG. I mean, I’ve been a dispatcher on the teleophone on TV before, man, I mean, like, how cool. Man, could I ask you a favor?
Fogen: Yeah.
Sean: Would you tell me if he does anything else?
Fogen: You’ve got my number. Have them call me.
Sean: OMG, OMG OMG!
LOL….yeah that is the script gz would like.
Sure seems to be the script the outhouse crew has read.
Fogen’s sense of paranoia and overrated sense of himself probably makes his lies seem plausible to himself.
Malisha, while you are here…… did you know that gz had to extend his pretrial diversion program in 2006 because as the document (docketed by: E Martins) shows :
Look at this: it’s one leniency and adjustment after another. Here, attacked a law enforcement officer in the course of official business? We’ll drop it from “with violence” to “without vioence,” OK? Not satisfied? We won’t make you really stand trial or plead, we’ll give you a way out, OK? Can’t fulfill your obligations to earn your “way out”? OK we’ll give you two more months, OK?
Can you see them behaving this way toward a guy like, say, Trayvon Martin? Here’s what created the Fogen that we see today: Everybody in official places let him get away with everything until they were even ready to let him get away with murder. Lawyer represents him and he seizes the check without giving the lawyer his cut? Lawyer backs off and says he doesn’t want to spend the time and effort fighting him.
Our society creates, coddles, enhances, encourages, enables and empowers PSYCHOPATHS. And they get away with murder. To make it look like this is not really happening, they do selective “crackdowns” on either innocent or minimally culpable people whose crimes are things like shooting folks with a “hello kitty” bubble pistol or something. “Tough on crime” means “tough on people who are easily victimized.”
We should be mindful of the fact that, in this kind of environment, the fact that the Fulton-Martin family is completely squeaky clean is very impressive. Think about it!
Brilliant and powerful statement, Malisha!
Malisha” “Our society creates, coddles, enhances, encourages, enables, and embpowers …”
A lot of overview ground magnificently covered. Thanks.
Fogen was given legal breaks early on that are often extended to young people until they overstep reason and bring the boom down. Fogen apparently had the good karma to avoid strong consequences in the past, but his luck is certainly running out now.
And it’s true that lighter-skinned people don’t always face the same sanctions as darker-skinned people in our legal system.
GOD YES, it’s not lost on me! i cannot fathom what would be going on if one had like a pot possession arrest when they were 19 (like me- exactly one tiny pinner)!! they would have gone OFF THE CHAIN with he/she is the ringleader of the largest miami drug cartel, they had Trayvon runnin dope up the east coast, blah blah blah…
except they ARE saying shit like that even though there’s nothing like that!!
but the truth is it’s not shocking that the killer is the one with the criminal background and shady past. you don’t become a murderer one day without some practice and lots of experience!
By the way, that document is filed in the Orange County Correctional Department’s area. Case #48-2005-MM-010436-O/A
It was reported on by CNN (end of March 2012)–I froze CNN’s newscast frame to copy the info.
Well done YAHTC
This case # matches up to the one about the felony assault on a police officer…..that was reduced to a misdemeanor.
Ah-ha! So three years after 9-10-06 is the minimum time before Fogen would be eligible to apply for a concealed-carry permit. He couldn’t apply before then, legally, so now I wonder if the training course reimbursement was because he wasn’t eligible at that time to take the course. Does anyone know what the date was on the reimbursement check?
your Right!!! 3 years after the program and after any restraining orders…i wonder about those and if they had to be followed though with to count toward the 3 years??
Yahtc, were did you find this?. I once tried to get hold of all papers of the earlier cases, Malisha helped me at the time. But they contained nothing of any matter. Nothing really, only a few documents that did not contain any specific information. In spite of the fact that I was assured that they contained all the material I was interested in. Most of the 30 something pages was about the accusation by his ex and his accusation back. I wondered if the pretrial diversion affair was somehow censored because it strictly wasn’t a conviction, but a diversion of his conviction.
This page posted CNN’s video:
http://24wired.tv/34801/george-zimmermans-background-further-investigated-by-cnn/
This was WAY early in the storyline of this case. We know WAY more dirt on his dirtbag of a life. I wonder if they would consider doing a status update on what we know now?
Don’t forget this is on the Orange County site and not the Seminole County site.
I would think that if CNN obtained it, it must be available.
Pretrial diversion means the case was considered a minor misdemeanor and was diverted out of court system (i.e., dismissed) without a guilty plea or finding of guilt entered on condition that the defendant do something, probably 20 hours of community service or something like that. It wouldn’t count as a prior conviction, but there would be a record of the diversion so that he would not get another free bite of the apple. “Free” in the sense that diversions are usually reserved for people with no prior record, which includes no prior diversions.
Of course, if you don’t do your community service, the case is refiled and you have to go to court on it.
Pretrial diversion generally is a good deal, unless a person has a defense to the charge and insists on going to trial.
I thought that this pretrial diversion was the requirement to take an anger management course.
Could be. I don’t recall what it was or what offense it was for. I was speaking generally about diversion.
This case # matches up to the one about the felony assault on a police officerā¦..that was reduced to a misdemeanor.
YAHTC – Thanks for that very interesting info. I’m surprised that hasn’t come out until now (at least not that I’ve heard about).
Is there a link to the source that you can share, please?
Thanks again.
Oops – sorry. I hadn’t read the whole thread. Nevermind! š
I’m not sure why you seem to think the animation sequences may be lacking, but I think they are excellent. They are well timed and sequenced and give a clear visual of the movements being presented.
I particularly liked the sequenced movements as Officer Smith’s car enters RATL while simultaneously W13 comes out with his phone/camera and hooks up with a killer and starts snapping away at him and his victim, 2 mins and 11 seconds after the shot was fired.
I’m sure that happens all the time….Hear a gunshot, run outside your house, and take pictures of a bloody killer with a gun and his prey in the ensuing 131 seconds after the shot….Didn’t I read somewhere they were even chatting about what kind of load he was shooting?
Something is bad wrong with that scenario.
@LLMPapa something is wrong there. Yes, racism and buying into the HOA wannabe thug aka NW guy…really creepy scene there for sure.
poppycock, this is very normal, happens all the time
LLMPapa…I am a a true fan and have been since before you began posting here…
To add on to your statment regarding W13, he not only came out with his phone/camera to hook up with a killer and take pictures… the stood over Trayvon’s still warm body and discussed and discussed the type of ammo the Fogen used.
Like Fogen had just come home from a hunting trip with his buck.
Fogen and many of the residents of the Retreat are disgusting people.
callous, depraved indifference
Kind of like those folks in Steubenville.
It’s very odd, of course, but perhaps that neighbor’s way of trying to keep Fogen occupied and in the area while police arrive.
I wouldn’t be too hard on W13.
How is anyone supposed to react when they go to investigate a noise in their backyard and discover a man with a gun standing over a dead body? My guess is that I would go into shock. I think I would be VERY careful about what i said to the gunman, and especially attempt to avoid getting on his bad side. I would probably stuff everything i wanted to say or ask back down my throat and say something dumb trying to go with the flow or run with the bulls. Like maybe, “so, what kind of ammo do you use in that thing?” I think twosides guess is plausible, but I’m betting Jon is thinking less about keeping GZ around until than cops come and is thinking more about how to keep his own ventricles from being shredded.
But whatever the circumstances, W13 didn’t run away. He stuck around and took that picture of the back of GZ’s head, for which we must thank him profusely. IIRC, GZ didn’t even know he was bleeding back there until W13 told him. Per LLPapa’s irrefutable application of the law of gravity, that photo JonW13 took is going to go a long way in convicting GZ. It also evidences, despite the presence of the blood trails, that prior to GZ receiving any medical attention his wounds show themselves to be superficial cuts, entirely inconsistent with GZ’s tale of his head getting slammed on concrete.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jon’s photo of Trayvon’s body also puts the lie to some of GZ’s claims about what happened after he fired the shot, messing with the arms and all that…
@whonoze re:”how is one suppose to react”
Well, I’m a clinical social,worker but I tip my hat to you. That is a very plausible explanation especially since I don’t think they knew each other. Keep the man with a gun calm by asking “we’re on the same side buddy” question( type of gun). Anything else is as cold as GZ was.
I caught that this witness is frightened and afraid that this gun man might peg a bullet at him, so he must watch his words. But what I missed was the reason that was so compelling, that he had to come out of his house? I’d think that, rather than go outside and worry about getting shot, one would simply stay inside.
so if he’s so freaked out. in shock. why in the hell would he stay hanging around with the killer he’s so afraid of? he wasn’t forced at gun point to talk with this man. he easily could have just shimmied his ass right back where he came from.
this guy is a pig! no matter what the excuse is! NO NORMAL person is gonna stand over a dead teenager and have the forethought to take a PICTURE of him- and then FORGET about it??? i call Bullshit, and if anyone stood above my dead child and took a picture, he’d be in some serious trouble!
@LLMPapa
Here is the transcript of the witness asking what kind of ammo/gun was used. He is the first Neighbor outside, took the three photos. His name is on the contamination log. J. Manolo
http ://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/05/the-trayvon-transcripts-witness-describes-zimmermans-attititude-just-tell-my-wife-i-shot-somebody-li.html
Audio of Witness 13
Track 1 (3 min)
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
I’m not sure that I grasp why TM would have turned AWAY from his father’s house, when he was so close, and traipsed back up the dogwalk…
It wasn’t clear to me – so perhaps someone can post how long actually passed between the time that he told DD that he was “right next to his father’s house” and the time that she heard him ask “why are you following me?”
Was that enough time to make that “return” trip up the dogwalk?
Oh, and thank y’all for posting these things.
Trayvon says he is by his father’s house, then he tells Deedee that the creepy man aka the defendant is catching up to him
He continues to try to evade the defendant until he gets too worn out and then the defendant catches him and confronts the kid, to which the kid asked “Why are you following me?” to the defendant
The defendant cut him off access to head south, and Trayvon’s only option was to run north toward the T
He was trying to evade the defendant, that is why he ran north
The victim was unable to fully reach his home and he also did not want to bring the danger to his house with his little brother there and it is rather difficult to make it home when someone is coming after you
I do not see why that is so difficult to grasp
Would it be easier to leisurely walk home without someone chasing you or would it be easier to make it home while running away from a stranger stalking and chasing you and is quickly catching up to you?
It is not exactly rocket science
Witness 2 heard, saw, and glanced at a chase that was heading north toward the T section, coming from the south
W2 estimates she heard/saw someone south of her approx 15 sec before she heard the shot. They were already on the ground in front of w6 house. Austin however was running south of her house about that time.
I think you are thinking of witness 1
I think that the prosecutor will not put forth a single speculation as he presents his case. The reason for this is that the defense would use such speculation as fodder to harm the prosecution’s case by countering it in order to confuse the jury.
@yahtc.
I agree. However, the prosecution can develop questions for cross based on physical evidence. That is actually what the speculation is based on. For example, GZ says that he was attacked at the “T.” Yet, the crime scene debris is about 40 ft south of the “T.”
GZ says that on his way back from RVC, he was banging on his flashlight trying to get it to work. Yet, his flashlight was found in the debris field, about 40 ft south of the T.
GZ says that he stopped following Trayvon and actually thought he lost him, and that while still on the phone with the dispatcher, he was walking back to his truck. Why then did he ask the dispatcher to call for his location? Also, why was he not back in his truck, but at the T, 3 minutes after he said he stopped following Trayvon?
As Gibraith said, “We have the body, we have the bullet casing, and we have gz’s statements.”
Not sure why you need to be so snotty in response to a genuine question… I’m not disagreeing with the presentation, just asking a question.
Despite your answers, I still don’t understand why it makes more sense to head back up the dogwalk instead of ducking into his dad’s place (that he said he was “right next to”) and lock the door behind him. At that point he had no reason to think that Zimmie was armed – just creepy.
Nowhere on the DD tape does Trayvon say anything like
“I can’t get to my father’s house, I’m gonna have to walk slowly AWAY from it and head back off up the path, being followed by some lunatic.”
The other thing that I don’t understand, in watching the presentation is why, after ducking into the cut between the houses, he would wait there for so long… surely a reasonable person would have ducked in until he heard his pursuer go past the top end and then make his way down the cut to his dad’s house.
And I still don’t know how long passed between the “right next to father’s house” comment and the confrontation at the top end of the dogwalk..
“Right next door to his father’s house” is NOT literal location. He is NOT LITERALLY outside the door. People use different ways of expressing distances that are “not too far away.” I’ll say I’m 5 minutes away, not knowing if REALLY it will take me 5 minutes or not. It’s just that I know I am nearby.Ā Same with this expression. He was be his fatehr’s house just meant he was nearby, at an indeterminate distance. Apparently it was far enough away that GZ could STILL cut him off.
@tony reay.
No one can answer that because you are attempting to apply a phone conversation in which there is no recording timing, while disregarding GZ’s phone conversation with NEN in which there is recorded timing.
Think of DeeDee’s statement where she says Trayvon told her he saw the creepy guy again. Trayvon would be looking ahead and not behind. Then Trayvon told her the creepy guy is behind him. That means that Trayvon changed direction. Then Trayvon said that the guy was getting closer. IOWs, the creepy guy did not go into either of the houses — he was indeed following and gaining distance.
What you ask makes several assumptions. The first is that it assumes that GZ was always behind Trayvon. That would assume that Trayvon could run away from GZ in the direction to Ms. Green’s townhouse. The second assumption is that Trayvon could enter Ms. Green’s townhouse from the patio. However, Trayvon told DeeDee that he was going to run “from the back.” From the back should not be understood to mean to the back.
Tony’s questions illustrate WHY the prosecutor should not attempt to put forth any speculation.
The jury WILL have similar questions and the defense will be only too happy to counter the prosecution’s speculation in order to confuse the jury.
Look how powerful Whonoze’s (aka teeslaw) video of gz’s lies is:
Fogen was out patrolling with a loaded gun, exactly the conduct that at least one resident had complained about at least twice, to the police. When he told the NEN dispatcher that “He ran,” he added that the “suspect” had run toward the back entrance to the neighborhood. To get to the back entrance to the neighborhood the “suspect” would have to pass by Brandi Green’s house and make a left, and then would be able to get out of the neighborhood, escaping as the “assholes always” did to “get away.” I think Fogen ran around to the area by the back entrance to the neighborhood and then came back, headed North, passed Brandi Green’s house and cut off “the suspect” that way, exactly as the 47-minute video shows him doing. Remember, Trayvon said he was going to walk fast but not run. I don’t think it was only from fatigue, but also, a certain measure of pride, that same pride that would make him turn and say, “Why are you following me?”
Nope, I mean w2:
Ā
Batchelor: From the time you heard, as you described in your statement, the running…
Ā
W2: Uh huh.
Ā
Batchelor: from that moment to the ‘pop’…?
Ā
W2: Shot?
Ā
Batchelor: how long? In your estimate?
Ā
W2: 15 seconds. From the time it takes me to walk from one end of the house to the other. Maybe 15 seconds. So it would be like the length of this down here.
Ā
@jun
Comment was for you.
@yahtc,
I agree. Unless the prosecution has solid eyewitness evidence of a south north chase, they are not going to touch it.
I do not see how I am being snotty. I am being logical. I never wrote anything insulting at all.
Here is Deedee’s statements
1) Trayvon told her about some creepy dude stalking him in a car, some old white man.
2) Trayvon tries to run home
3) Trayvon tells Deedee he lost the guy
4) Trayvon said he is right by his father’s house, so he will walk back now.
5) Trayvon tells Deedee the creepy man is catching up behind him
6) Trayvon tries getting away
7) Trayvon says he caught up to him
8) Trayvon decides to just talk it out with the defendant as he is worn out
I am just saying, it would be really difficult to make it home if you were being stalked and chased by a stranger who wont let up, and is catching up to you
I do not understand how that is difficult to grasp
It sounds like Trayvon really did not have time to plan out his strategy to deal with the situation being brought forth to him
If you are trying to evade someone catching up to you, you have no choice but to just react, as there is no time to plan out what to do
Again I do not see why that would be difficult to grasp
He was trying to evade the defendant and just ended up where he got killed
I am doubting there was any form of plan, except get away from the defendant, and protect his home because of his little brother
jun……here is your insult to Tony:
I dont believe there is any speculation regarding the south to north direction in the final moments of the crime
Everything points to south heading north in the final moments of the crime
To come to a south point, Fogenhats, would have had to headed south at some point
Trayvon could not exactly make it home with a perpetrator of a crime catching up to him, so his only though was to evade the defendant
His only path he saw that he could evade the defendant at that point was to head north from a southern point on the back pathway
The only speculation is the path Fogenhats used to get to a southern point on the back pathway but the fact of the matter is that can only be theorized, but either way, it still proves the defendant went after the kid, and that is what matters
According to Deedee, Trayvon started out around the mailbox (which is by the clubhouse) and he noticed the defendant stalking and watching him from his car
The chase started around that area, and then Trayvon getting apprehensive decided to make a run to avoid the defendant
I do not see how what I wrote is an insult
I just do not understand why it is a difficult concept to grasp
There’s nothing insulting whatsoever with the statement I wrote
The victim was trying to evade the defendant and since the victim did not have time to really strategically plan out how to deal with the issue that the defendant was wanting to instigate, his only thought at that moment was evasion of the defendant
Since the southern point was no longer an option for the victim, the victim tried evading by heading north
The victim tried evading by running away from the defendant in the beginning, and he continued to do so, so considering that mindstate, he was just trying to evade the defendant and during that time, the victim just reacted by trying to evade by heading north
@jun,
The south north path is speculation. There is no physical evidence or eyewitness account that we know of, that supports a south north chase.
Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, although I am with Tony on this one that it doesn’t make sense to me.
Either way the prosecution is going to stay far away from that theory. The defense can demolish the theory that Trayvon was chased north. That would leave wide open the question why Trayvon headed back north and play right into the hands of the defense of Trayvon going back to confront GZ.
Look at it like this
A creepy stranger is unrelenting in stalking and chasing you, and is catching up to you
It takes time to pull out a key and open the door
and during that time the defendant could have attacked him in the south
The victim was trying to get away and evade the whole time, from the defendant, so logically, he is gonna go in directions where the defendant is not there
Considering that, and the defendant was catching up to him, the victim saw that heading south was no longer an option and he saw a path north and headed that way to evade
When a perp is trying to get you, sometimes heading straight home is not an option, and that is what was presented to Trayvon at that particular moment in time
In Canada, we had the Scarborough Rapist, and he caught his victim, as she was about to get inside her house, and then she was raped when the perp caught up to her
When you are in a threatening situation, your only thought is evasion, and the path to his house was obviously no longer an option so he tried evading in a different direction from the defendant, as he did so, since the beginning of the encounter
jun,
you haven’t presented any evidence to suggest (never mind actually PROVE) that “the path to his house was obviously no longer an option ” and yet you keep repeating it…
DD sez he was “right next to his Dad’s house” – there is nothing to suggest that, at that point, he was FEARFUL of zimmie – in fact he repeatedly says that he’s NOT gonna run…
He had no reason to suspect that this creep was armed and clearly did not feel in much danger – nor did he say anything to DD about abandoning his journey home .. or needing to draw zimmie away from baby brother – it is,, in fact all conjecture.
You seem to believe it – some of us find it illogical.
Surely we’re allowed to state OUR opinions as well?
There’s plenty of evidence that Trayvon was chased north
Look at the crime scene evidence
Trayvon’s cell phone was south of his body and was dropped onto the grass, just like Deedee heard on the phone
That points to the defendant going at the victim in a northern direction, causing the victim to drop the phone, and become north of the cellphone
Witness 2 also states that there is a chase heading north
Witness 8 tells in her testimony of Trayvon being stalked and chased
Witness 1 also points to it coming from a southern direction
The fact of the matter is Fogenhats got to the south at some point, and then headed north
There is more than just what I wrote, but I am not in the mood to go over every detail repeatedly over and over on here
Its gonna be brought up and can be proven in court
If the south to north run is based on W2 statement, O’Mara can tear that apart by saying that W2 was not wearing her contacts.
I remember that W2 first said she saw in a glance two people running past her window, but then changed that to one person.
Perhaps Austin’s dog made her at first think it was two people= dog + Austin.
Witness 11 said it began at the north side of her townhouse and bent south down the dogwalk.
Witness 6 said he did not know if the yelling came toward his townhouse from the right or the left.
Witness 1 said it came from a southerly direction.
O’Mara can use these contradictory statements to confuse the jury.
Well W2 combined with W8, also heard it heading towards the T, which is North, plus her limited vision of what she saw and glanced at
W1 places them coming from the south and a kid making a weird noise
She has ears and can tell the direction of the noises as well
There’s more evidence than that, but I would be repeating everything I have stated since the beginning on here like a broken record
If you want to see how I laid it out, then just look for my statement on here covering it
You have to look at the evidence in it’s entirety, not bits and pieces
@Jun
Jun, I too seem to lack patience when repeating the same thing over and over to the Zidiots’ theories. (Not saying Tony is a Zidiot, but his question relies on the Zidiots’ double-back theory which effectively requires that Trayvon be clairvoyant.)
Absolutely. For me, it includes the fact that DeeDee called Trayvon at 7:12. Since the phone records do not include seconds, it could have been 7:12:01 to 7:12:59. During that same time in GZ’s NEN call, he sounds distracted and changed his plans on where to meet the cops, wanting them to call for his location. GZ heard Trayvon talking on his phone. That gave away where Trayvon was. GZ only needed to head Trayvon off.
w11 also said she thought there was 10 guys out there and she was not sure what was going on out there and she cant conclusively testify anything
Her only conclusiveness to her statements is she recorded it on the phone call to 911
This has been an interesting discussion, jun.
@jun
No there isn’t any evidence that we know of. You keep repeating the same stuff and I keep repeating providing you with quotes and links to refute your statements.
Willesnewton superimposed the original position of Trayvon’s body from w13 photo with a photo of the evidence.
This is what w1 said about the events:
W1: and I heard a noise, it
was a screaming noise, and I thought
it was kids playing in the back like they
normally do. It sounded like somebody
saying either, “No” or um something like
“Uh” and um they were running in the
back and I came to my glass sliding
door’s window. I peeped out and I
couldn’t really see back there because
there wasn’t a lot of lights on back there.
All I saw was arms flailing. I’m thinking it’s
kids out there that’s rough housing,
playing around. At the same time I
peeked out,my neighbor across the
street, where the incident occurred on
his lawn, he came out on his porch
and he was like, “Yo, what’s going on
out there? What’s going on? I’m going
to call 911”
She clearly describing the event taking placein front of John’s place and she is looking outside at the same time as John did.
W2 heard/saw the running 15 sec before she heard the shot. At that time they were already on the groundin front of John’s place.
Austin was just South of W1 and W2, when his dog got of the leash and he ran after his dog. He grabbed the dog, turned around to go back, when he heard the shot.
Dee Dee never gave a location, because she couldn’t know. You may not be convinced, but you can be sure that the defense will use these statements to refute that GZ chased Trayvon from south to north.
I hope the prosecution only sticks to the solid facts of the case.
I would hate to see the prosecution lose its case because it engaged in speculation that the defense refutes.
As far as W11 hearing so many voices, we have to remember that there could have been an echo effect between the townhouses.
I think there was a discussion of the echo effect as far as the gunshot.
Excuse you Jun, Mr rocket scientist! for one thing i’m not convinced Gz ran *that* far down the RVC.
i think he took a cut thru *behind* Trayvon and that’s why Tray said he was getting closer. he saw him following him but couldn’t really fathom this creep was actually coming after him.
i also think Trayvon coulda been hiding/ducking behind one of those fences that are seperating the yards. i can imagine him watching GZ getting closer and closer and relaying this to DD. but not expressing to her that he’s stopped walking and is trying to figure out what’s going on…and finally once GZ was practically right up in his face, this could be when Trayvon had to basically come out from hiding and finally ask him why he’s following him.
I don’t believe he suddenly saw gz pop out from between the buildings and turned around and began running back toward the T.
@Tony Raey, i agree, i don’t see him running back toward the T- *UNTIL* GZ has already accosted him.
But most importantly WHERE was Trayvon exactly when this confrontation happen! It would have to be after he asked him why he’s following him, he’s been accosted and his call gets disconnected. That’s when i can see him taking off toward the T trying to get away from GZ. I hope the state has some of this figured out.
As far as Trayvon saying he’s near his father’s house, my theory is that once he’s past the club house, in his mind, he’s close to his dad’s house. looking at the map of the neighborhood and the distance from the 7/11, i’d consider anywhere after the club house pretty close… but we of course can’t know exactly what he meant..
No
I am not repeating myself because there is no need to repeat myself
The evidence is there
I just dont want to keep having to explain it again and again
I also never stated Deedee knew where they were exactly
That is why I stated you have to put it altogether to get a picture
which is why I combined the testimony of w1, w2, w18, w8, and the forensic debris trail leading to Trayvon’s body, which would mean they headed north
Now do the math of all their testimonies, and how they place the movements, and where they are testifying as to what they saw
Notice that they all point to the south of the back pathway
W2 stated she saw, glanced and heard a chase, someone yelling NONONO which was ended with a gunshot and she points it moving north toward the T
W8 says that Trayvon was getting chased
Now you see how the 2 testimonies work together to paint a picture, which shows Trayvon was chased north?
W18 also saw the whole thing from the confrontation onwards and points to the defendant as the aggressor, hence again, the defendant was the one instigating, hence the person pursuing the other for the incident
w1 points out that a kid was making a weird noise and she points to the confrontation in the south
Trayvon’s body is about 60 feet south of the T, and to the west of the sidewalk onto the grass, with his head in a northern direction
His cell phone is south of his body
Now you add it altogether, and you can see that it all originated from the south, toward’s the north
since it started from what was witnessed by the residents from the chase onwards from the south, and confrontation, threatening and killing, that means the defendant had to have had headed south at some point to get the kid, and then the kid tried evading by heading north
Since the defendant can be placed south, he could have only gotten there out of his own free will, and intent, since that was where the victim was heading towards at first, before trying to evade by heading north up toward the T, so therefore, it is proven he continued and repeated his stalking and chase and pursuit of this kid to get him
Its not rocket science
You are making a simple matter into something that should be fairly simple
I am only laying part of it, and the state has much more than I do
That is how circumstantial evidence works, it takes out all other choices of what could have happened
I think that’s exactly why Jun asked the question if this wouldn’t help the opposite camp more than the Trayvon camp/prosecution. Again, this is brilliant work, exactly since Tchoubi visualizes so perfectly the passing time. Obviously the opposite camp will pick this up to support their view, Trayvon could have been home at the time the murder happened.
I am with Mirre, a least I suspect defense to use the boy chasing his dog to divert attention from what the witness reporting the chase saw.. I wear lenses myself and am very shortsighted, nevertheless I doubt I would mistake a dog chased by two persons chasing each other.
Obviously. it depends how weak your eyes are. Considering she takes them out and does not immediately put on glasses. This suggests to me they aren’t that bad. In which case her sight only blurs slightly. Would someone mistake two people chasing each other with a boy chasing a dog? Unfortunately whoever interviewed her only asked about the distance between the two and not if she could imagine one was a dog.
I don’t think DeeDee can assign an exact time to the point when Trayvon said he was “right next to his father’s house,” because she doesn’t have a way to figure out the time. She also says approximate times all the same way, saying, “a couple of minutes.” I can just hear her when her mom tells her to get ready for school (or ready for something else) saying she’ll be ready in “a couple of minutes.” She’s not meaning “two times sixty seconds,” it’s just her way of saying a relatively small amount of time. So we can’t get a real estimate there.
Trayvon could have easily been looking at Brandy’s condo from way back at the T and say he’s near it, so we really can’t get a good sense of where he is when he says that.There’s such a huge variation in what people perceive and how they communicate distances to one another.
I’ve always felt that the way kids lollygag around with their phones, that Trayvon was equally concerned with the calls and having the freedom to walk around as he was with the creepy guy. I think he had no reason to believe that Fogen was armed or that he would continue to follow once he ducked out of the way. He communicates some fear and concern, but may have been far more fearful land concerned had he not been distracted by his phone calls. He may have felt that as long as he kept a little distance between himself and Fogen that he was safe enough to stay on the phone.
Although I think Whonoze and others did an outstanding job on the video in portraying one possible scenario, I think Fogen is an unlikely candidate for walking all the way north and then all the way back south again. I don’t think he’s that ambitious and especially not that ambitious on a dark, rainy night.
I think perhaps Trayvon hid in a space between buildings longer than this video details and that his path crosses Fogen’s much closer to the confrontation site. I think if Fogen went north, he probably cut back into the dog run area farther south because he could keep an eye on both directions from the dog run. Otherwise, I feel a confrontation would have started much sooner. I just can’t picture Fogen and Trayvon walking or running south for the entire distance of the dog run, even with the fact that Fogen would have to catch up – their visual meeting had to happen much quicker or we would have heard different testimony from DeeDee. For another thing, Fogen had normal vitals when he was checked a few minutes later, and after a long walk /run and a confrontation, he should have elevated vitals.
I also think we shouldn’t get obsessive about our particular opinion in the threads – it just fills the space with unnecessary noise. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather see a high level of data to noise rather than the other way around. I think it’s sufficient to voice one’s pet theory once in a thread and perhaps reply once or twice to communicate with another commenter, but insisting everyone see it your way over and over gets tedious. It’s OKAY if people disagree with the video and your pet theory. Perhaps when you insist on a particular viewpoint, it’s YOU that is unable to grasp another theory.
Essentially, it makes no difference whether Fogen chased Trayvon from south to north, or Trayvon hid in bushes or anywhere else, or it took him two minutes to walk from the T to Brandi’s house’s vicinity, or any of that. When doctors try to figure out what illness a person has based upon his condition, they do what is called “rule out,” starting with the most obvious guess about what’s causing the symptoms, and ruling it out if there is a way to definitely say, “no, not that.” The same has to be done with a crime if a suspect will not plead guilty and explain all the facets of the situation that make it clear what occurred.
You take the possible scenarios and rule them out.
All you have to do in this case is rule OUT self-defense. No matter which way confrontation occurred, no matter which way either of the parties (suspect/gunman and victim/deceased) came, went, walked, ran, skipped, yelled, or said “coon” or “homie,” what we can rule out is self-defense, and this is how:
The only suggestion of self-defense came from Fogen.
Fogen said he was not following Trayvon. [Rule out possibility that that statement is true — he already admitted following]
So, Fogen was following Trayvon. That does not automatically “rule out” self-defense, though.
But: Fogen had said to the dispatcher, “Shit, he’s running,” and “He ran.” I think this DOES rule out self-defense. Because Fogen admits that Trayvon was trying to escape HIM, escape Fogen, and therefore, had Fogen done nothing more, there would have been no confrontation. But let’s just say, to error on the side of caution, that it doesn’t totally rule out self-defense.
Fogen said he had begun to return to his car and Trayvon confronted him. “You got a problem?” That does not rule out self-defense either. But does it lead to a conclusion that Fogen could have been defending himself?
Now, self-defense is ruled out. Why? Because when Fogen says he was questioned about his problem, he wanted to dial 911. He reached for his cell phone.
He has already admitted not knowing Trayvon so we know that Trayvon did not know him. A stranger has been following a person and when the person asks what his problem is, he is seen reaching into a pocket. The person reaching into his pocket may be presumed to be about to pull out a weapon. Hundreds of “good shoots” by police were preceded by the person reaching into his pockets or thereabouts. That is why when police do a traffic stop they say, “Keep your hands where I can see them.”
So even if you believe every word Fogen says/lies, his self-defense claim is ruled out because HE does not say that he told Trayvon he meant no harm, or that he was a neighborhood watch volunteer, or that he had phoned the police. HE caused a confrontation and he caused a fight and he caused a killing. That is not consistent with a claim of self-defense.
Furthermore, since Trayvon had no signs, on his hands, of beating or hitting Fogen, the self-defense story is ruled out by physical evidence as well.
Fogen said he then said
@twosidestoeverystory
“Signal to noise” great description!!
bcclist insisted on citing what in the case caused someone to think something. We had to post case evidence link before following with any conjecture we had. This blog is more free flowing.
We don’t really know. Dee Dee gives a sequence of events, not a real time line. Like Whonoze says in his video, we know what happened on TTL before Trayvon starts running, because we can see that in the clubhouse videos. After he starts running we can only speculate, and we don’t have a concenssus about exactly what happened.
This is what Dee Dee said:
Dee Dee: No, he say he lost the guyā¦
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: And then he ran from the backā¦
BDLR: Right.
Dee Dee: He say he lost him.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He started walking back againā¦and I told him āKeep runninā.ā
BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: I say, āKeep runninā.ā
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He say he aināt goinā run, cause he say he right by his father houseā¦
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: So, and in a couple minutesā¦he say the man followinā him again, behinā him. And I
say, āRUN!ā You goinā to run? He say he not goinā run causeā¦I could have known he not going
to run, cause he out of breath. and then, he told me, he say this guy gettingā close to him. I told
him āRUN!ā And then, and thenā¦ I tolā him āKeep runninā.ā He not goinā run. And then he
sayā¦I told him, āWhy you not runninā? He say, āIām not goā run,ā cause he tired, but I know he
tired.
BDLR: Iām sorryā¦Trayvon said heās not running becauseā¦heās not going to run he
saidā¦because you could tell he was tired?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
11BDLR: Well, how could you tell he was tired?
Dee Dee: He was breathinā hard.
BDLR: OK, real hard?
Dee Dee: Real hard.
My theory is that Trayvon was walking on the grass to the left of GZ. GZ stopped his car in front of a gap between 2 houses to the left of his car. I think Trayvon may have run between those 2 houses in the opposite direction of the dog walk. He may have crossed RVC and was walking behind the houses on the other side of RVC. GZ may have thought Trayvon was running towards the back entrance, and in an attempt to cut Trayvon off, ran through the cut-through towards RVC.
GZ may have been walking and looking for Trayvon anywhere near the cut-through.
When Trayvon thought he’d lost GZ, he walked back towards the cut-through, and I think that is when GZ spotted him and started following him again, this time towards the dog walk.
I think that path matches better with Dee Dee’s description of the events, but it of course is also speculation.
This has been an interesting discussion, jun.
Tony R, when Trayvon first realized he had to get away from someone following him, that person was following him in a VEHICLE. Then he DID get away from him. But he wouldn’t go down the street to the front of Brandi Green’s house by the sidewalk because a creepy guy following him in a car could easily turn around, whip down that street and get to him before he reached Brandi Green’s front door. So Trayvon thought, “I better go to the back door so he can’t follow me.” He doesn’t know the creepy guy in the vehicle LIVES IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD so he doesn’t realize that the guy can figure out where he went as a pedestrian; he thinks he evaded the guy once he went where a car couldn’t follow him.
THEN he sees, as he stands relatively near Brandi Green’s house, and is standing there chatting with DeeDee (while probably facing the T rather than facing South, so he can check just in case the creepy guy DOES do something else) that the creepy guy is “there again” and this time on foot. He walks quickly and tells DeeDee he is going to “run from the back.” He means that NOW that Fogen is on foot, he is going to the FRONT of the house, where he would NOT want to go when he thought Fogen was in the vehicle.
That way it does make sense.
If the defendant went south on RVC to prevent Trayvon from escaping out the back gate and, upon realizing that Trayvon had not reached the gate, he then backtracked to find him by walking N/B up the dog walk toward the T, as Trayvon stood ahead of him facing the T looking for the creepy man while speaking to Dee Dee, that might explain why Trayvon would have told her that the creepy man was “behind him.”
Hell of a bad sentence. Hope the meaning is clear.
It was clear enough, and a faster read than if you had added the number of words, needed to make it grammatically correct.
That’s the thing about the net, grammar is going the way of the horse and buggy, because we’re writing so much and need to get the writing done quickly and with fewer words to spare the reader.
We have a block of time when we don’t know where GZ is, we only have a faint clue as to where TM went. DD says he was right by his fathers house, but we can’t quantify “right by”, except to think it suggests TM was much further than 40 feet from the T.
So, then the real question is, why would a frightened and defenseless youth, turn and move away from his house? The person without any credibility at all, wants us to believe his self serving view, that this youth turned suddenly violent and rushed to attack him viciously, as he attempted to flee. Yet, the record shows that GZ was the violent one, well versed and totally familiar with combat, and unafraid to engage with complete strangers of greater size and abilities (read undercover police).
GZ also claims that he was afraid of TM, yet, that claim is repudiated by his decision to follow him, while having on his mind that TM should not get away. When the police ask GZ where to meet him, GZ says, in effect: “Since I won’t be returning to my truck, there’s no point in you trying to meet me there. And, since I won’t be staying here on RVC where I’ve come to get an address for you to meet me at, there’s no point in me giving you this address either. But, since I don’t know where I will be, because I don’t know where this hunt for my suspect will take me, better you have the responding officer call me, and I’ll then be able to tell him where I am!”
So, that’s essentially how the NeN call ends. With GZ not tied to any location and therefore free to keep hunting for the subject who he claims has him frightened to death of.
@tony reay.
Have you seen Dave’s video of that area? What is called the “T” that ran in the back of the houses comes out to a road where vehicles travel. According to DeeDee, Trayvon was going to run “from the back.” He would need to go to the end of that “T” where it comes out to the street, and turn the corner to enter the house at the front door.
The creepy guy had followed Trayvon in a vehicle, and Trayvon ran to an area with no street for a vehicle. Logically, he would feel safe in that area, not knowing that the creepy guy had gotten out of his vehicle to follow him. Now, he only needed to be careful not to go to the end where vehicles could travel, so had to watch and make sure that the creepy guy was not on that road before he ran “from the back” to the front of the house.
The proper question is, If GZ indeed stopped following Trayvon when saying “Okay” at about 7:12, why was he still out of his truck and, according to him, at the “T” at 7:16?
It’s GZ who has to account for his time and not Trayvon. The “double-back” theory is what I refer to as a bigotvoyant theory because it assumes that Trayvon knew where GZ was, where he would walk, and when he would arrive at the “T”.
I can see TM, aware that GZ is observing him, keeping an eye on GZ’s truck’s headlights once he gets onto the sidewalk between the buildings. I would. The lights stop or go out. TM asks himself, what now? Maybe figures the guy lives right there. Eases his own mind for a bit and he lingers. Not really in a hurry to get anywhere, anymore. Maybe saunters back toward the T cause he gets better reception there?
The time lapses and actual words used in conversation with DD are really forever lost. I do like her mentioning the mail shed, though. GZ doesn’t say anything about that. To me, that is significant.
The alercation started when she heard him say , why are you following me, so wherever he was,close to his dad’s house, is where the altercation started and I think close to his father’s house is where his phone was found.
To Whonoze and the entire team (((((APPLAUSE)))))
There is one aspect of this theory that I like very much.
I have had my doubts about GZ’s version of the events during his call (mainly the absurdly long distance Trayvon had to cover and the inconsistency with DeeDee’s version.) However I always assumed that major deviations from his version meant that he had to lie during the call.
This theory solves many problems with his account, but he would still have been relatively honest on the phone.
PYorck, I know of someone else who at Jonathan Turley’s blog who suspects the same, which obviously would make a premeditated murder. If I remember correctly he used the handle Tony C. Yes, that was his aka.
I prefer the idea that Fogen strong believe in his biased perception caused the tragedy. But I find the theory interesting, even more since his 911 call is used as evidence that he surely didn’t intend to kill somebody.
Sorry I changed the two sentences and did not pay enough attention of what happened to it. š
Just to clarify – I agree that GZ being biased but by and large honest while on the phone makes more sense.
The fact GZ is RELATIVELY truthful during the NEN call (as he describes events as they unfold) is what makes it such damning counter-evidence to his subsequent statements to Singleton and Serino and to his nonsensical ‘re-enactment.’
Simply stunning. Have watched twice, and will view a third time early tomorrow. Thank you for extraordinary work in clarification.
I’m not as good as many other posters here at visualizing in my mind how this incident played out or keeping all the possible directions and movements straight – but you made the possibilities very clear. Wonderful job!
That was so much work to make– I appreciate being able to see it and your adding the many calls in real time. So here from my chair, I am going to say
1.) Maybe it is actually true that that horrible man forgot the name of Twin Trees Lane– he blabbers whenever (twice) he needs to say it and can’t.
2.) I think he must have returned to the dogwalk through one of the separations between the buildings, not a paved path. That would explain how he got all those parallel scratches on his face and scalp we see on the photos taken later that night, as well as the cuts on back of his head. (Idea: He walked into some kind of bushy branch, then he pushed a tree branch aside to pass quietly, and it sprang back at him and hit the back of his head.) Also, on the NEN call he wasn’t breathing as if he’d taken a walk at a brisk pace all the way down to the end. I think he ran down Twin Trees to a building separation and came in there.
3.) Why couldn’t Ofr Smith go through the cut-through from Twin Trees, it’s so frustrating to realize he wasted time, esp. as the initial 911 calls came from houses on Twin Trees, and Zimmerman’s truck was ostensibly parked there?
Poor Trayvon. Poor DeeDee. How can a firearm in every fool’s hand do anything but put everyone in danger?
Cercando, @ #2 I noticed on one of Marinade Dave’s walks that some of the trees between buildings had guide wires to help the trees grow straight. ( Even near where gz parked his vehicle) gz could have tripped on one of those at some point
While he’s out on patrol, tripping and falling or getting scratched or scraped by the bushes and being uncomfortable or sustaining little injuries could have increased his rage. I can almost hear his subvocalized, indignant, internal monologue:
“Fucking punks. They always get away. Come in here any time they want, making decent people have to run around trying to protect the neighborhood, slithering around between buildings, peering into houses, ready to rip off everybody, you have to avoid them when you’re driving, they’re fucking everywhere. Cops can’t deal with them; nobody does anything. They know that; they know how to get away; they cased the neighborhood real good, tell each other how to do it. It’s about time one of them was brought to justice. Fucking punks. Look at this shit. Am I bleeding? SHIT! See what happens to a decent citizen trying to protect his family? Suspects evading arrest, all over the place, nobody does anything.”
Dang! I even heard it in his weasly voice! Right on the money!
Sent from my iPod
Malisha, exactly my thought when I read it.
@ whonoze and all the contributors:
Intelligent.
Comprehensible.
Viscerally powerful.
All three qualities needed for the jurors’ decision.
Thank you.
Just so clear and spellbinding. And so very very sad. Good job everyone.
@Whonoze,
Excellent video. I want to thank you again and all the contributers @ BccList.
Oh btw, thanks for including me in the credits department.
š
I was reading your comments as you were all discussing the production.
Yeah blushedbrown. I know you put lots of time into the clubhouse videos. I was very happy to see your handle in the credits.
@Xena,
Thank you, it truly was an honor to be included in the credits, for Whonoze to include me was all too kind. š
Thank you for all your hard work. I had considered the south to north chase. Your conclusion is chilling.
WHAT A FABUOUS PIECE OF WORK!
1. Congratulations.
2. Thank YOU!
3. WOW!
Something now occurs to me that had not occurred to me before. Tim Smith drives into the neighborhood, past the club house, as the NEN call description from Fogen would have it. But then he goes all the way around and comes up on the other side of Retreat View Circle — JUST WHERE Fogen said, on Hannity, he had gone AFTER being told not to follow, for the following reason: “Because I wanted to meet a police officer that I had called.”
No he hadn’t.
He had told Sean on the NEN call to have the responding officers call him when they got into the neighborhood. IF in fact Tim Smith was going to meet Fogen at that end of Retreat View Circle (the East tip of the “T”), that was by some arrangement that was not spoken on the NEN call.
That is my guess. Pre-arranged meeting place was over there; by then, Fogen would have his prey, at gun-point, waiting to be arrested on Fogen’s word (“He attacked me”). Smith was kiling time because he heard all those other 911 calls coming in; had to let the scene play out before he arrived. Remember Fogen said he was “running out of time”? That’s why.
They DO want to hide that Smith is as dirty as Fogen on this one.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-3-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
Malisha, about a third the way into Witness 3’s 911 call, she tells the dispatcher she sees the police arrive and then gives directions by saying “but it is behind my house”.
Perhaps that is why Officer Smith continues on TTL and around down RVC to where he parked.
Do we know where Smith parked his car?
It felt to me that Tschoubi et al try* to make time matters fit at that point. To leave absolutely no doubt: I think this is a very brilliant word. I like especially that Tschoubi was very, very careful to add: Fogen claims occasionally.
* Amsterdam, Whonoze, blowedbrown anybody I forgot?
@leander21
Smith first drove to 1231 Twin Trees which is w3’s address, but he was redirected to 2821 RVC, which is w19’s place. He probably parked in front of her house.
Thanks Amsterdam, that helps. Besides Lea/lea is fine with me. One of my favorite names my parents unfortunately did not give me. I am usually LeaNder on the web, whenever I have to shift I use one of my favorite numbers which is 22.
I invented it once when some crazy conspiracy nut published my complete name and address from a private mail on his yahoo list. It was a really horrible experience. I was stupid enough to use my real name at the time.
The N stands for no and the rest is leader, in German FĆ¼hrer. That’s why I use the Chaplin icon. I was very, very fascinated by how well he portrayed the really odd gestures of Hitler when he has to use the Nazi salute, which by the way is called Hitler salute in German. Maybe he realized it was a bit odd in greeting other’s actually greeting himself. Which may be the reason why sly often avoids the correct gesture. š
sly was meant to be he, I deletely something, I think it was obviously, yes but seemingly not completely. š I wouldn’t call him sly willingly.
Malisha,
I have always believed officer Smith and gz had agreed to a pre-arranged meeting place where gz would be *found* to have captured “his suspect”
I believe there’s a call from gz to Officer Smith’s personal cell phone # placed just minutes before gz went in pursuit of Trayvon.
Smith is dirty
Looneydoone, I believe that too.
Is there evidence of such a call?
@Looneydoon, he is not only dirty, he is *FILTHY* dirty! I think that once this trial gets going and before all is said and done, we are going to see some more people facing charges in this case.
Someone submitted a comment here a couple of weeks ago, stating that O’haha sat Fogen’s family down and told them that he was going to prison and, he did this going by the evidence that he already has. I’m pretty sure he knows who those people are, in terms of those who tried to help this POS get away with this murder. this is so sad and what’s even sadder is the fact that, there are some in this country who can not only see fit to support the POS, they also see fit to slander and disrespect this kid and his family.
I will be so glad when this is over and, Fogen is behind bars along with his enablers.
Malisha,
No. There’s no evidence of a call from gz to Smith made public to date. It’s just my hunch that’s what took place. My instincts are fairly well-honed, and usually correct. MOM doesn’t want phone & text records released for *some reason* that’s prejudical to gz’s defense. Smith’s actions that night point to his being complicit in both the “set-up” and conspiracy to cover up a murder. Who was the officer gz expected to meet ? Smith is the logical choice.
Smith isn’t the one delayed. Smith is the second officer dispatched. Ayala is the one delayed if I remember correctly.
I wonder if we know: When Sean got off the phone, whom did HE dispatch and what was that officer told as to the reason he or she was dispatched? Was that in evidence? I’m not talking about officers responding to the various 911 calls.
There should be a series of recordings of what various dispatchers told the officers they dispatched to the scene. That would include Sean and the 911 dispatchers.
Malisha:
I don’t KNOW, but I THINK the police phone system works like this: The call-takers for both 911 and 311 are low level employees with minimal training. They are not police officers. They just type their reports into their computer screens. They do not dispatch anyone. Since there can be multiple calls coming in to 311 and 911 simultaneously, I think all the data entered by the call-takers shows up on the screen of there person who actually is the dispatcher. The dispatcher has the possibly difficult task of parsing all the incoming information from the various reports that may be hitting their screen at the same time, and translating that into instructions for officers in the field. Thus it’s like a childs’ game of ‘telephone’. The call-taker enters a shorthand code for the witness on the phone says; the dispatcher interprets several of these and translates that into another shorthand code relayed to the officer in the field, who then has to interpret that and figure out what do to.
Thus, even though the first 911 call comes from 1221 TTL, Smith is told to report to 1231 TTL, source of 911 call #2. All he probably gets is “gunshot reported at 1221 TTL.” He gets there, sees nothing, reports that, and the dispatcher says “hold on”. At this time W3 is emphatically telling the obtuse woman taking her call, ‘NO IT’S AROUND BACK! THE BACKYARD!!” but Smith obviously doesn’t get this information since he doesn’t get out of his car at this point, but drives around to 2821 RVC, home of W19, the sixth 911 caller. Here, according to his written report, he gets out of his car, but he still doesn’t know exactly where to go. He says he’s canvassing. Obviously, the dispatcher finally gets the message that he needs to head for the backyards and relays that to Smith, who finally walks around from the RVC end of the cut-through sidewalk, discovers W13 and GZ somewhere between the body and the T, and takes GZ into custody.
Dispatch (Sean) likely communicated a “all available units respond to” radio order when 911 calls began coming in…the available officers individually relay confirmation they are en route back to the dispatcher, often advising an ETA
That’s the protocol in most jurisdictions
@Malisha So even though he first arrived at 7:19, he probably doesn’t actually get to the backyard for a few more mintues. This could explain how the neighbor and gz had time to take a picture and make that phone call.
Smith first arrived at the complex still in reaction to GZ’s call. As he arrived at the complex, calls about the shooting were coming in. He was first redirected to TTL, I believe to W3’s address. When he arrived at that address, he was redirected to respond to w19 on RVC.
Wow. Incredibly clear. The use of real time makes this extraordinary, It’s creating a visual timeline that is NOT misplacing events and long pauses. Instead, it’s illustrating their sequencing.
It is great how it clearly shows that the final (speculative) scenario fits the time that was involved. I’ve long believed George came up from the south and chased Treyvon north (ever since the Taaffe video)..
Do these (heroic, gigantic, important) efforts get seen by the prosecution team? They should see this.
Thank you. Very good and informative .
BTW, what was that haunting music?
Seemed like it was written for the video.
music “KM / Seeding the Clouds”, by Tuxedomoon.
I agree Frederick. Besides I asked myself the same question as you when I heard a helicopter at one point. But obviously it may be an accident and I may associate whatever type of percussions with the mystery of air rescue that couldn’t fly due to weather and the helicopter overheard in one of Serino’s interview (#13?). O’Mara was so kind to point it out in the appendixes of one of his recent motions.
It’s “KM/Seeding the Clouds” by Tuxedomoon, an ‘experimental new wave’ band from San Francisco. It’s from their album, “Half Mute” released in 1980. The track is mostly instrumental, with a few vocals. I edited it to remove the words, and fit the hole. I’m glad you thought it was appropriate. I felt I ought to put something in there, but worried that any music i chose would put some people off.
Whonoze,
Very well done.
Congratulations to all of you.
BEWARE; THIS STARTS WITH ‘THE SCREAM’. Some people have asked that a warning be placed when Trayvon’s scream will be used. It;s the 1st 5 seconds of this one.
Outstanding video, whonoze!
You do an excellent job combining audio of witness statements and 911 calls, surveillance video, map of the Retreat with animation showing TM and gz movementā¦ā¦amazing. You have worked hard and long for Trayvon, whonoze!
+ you have a wonderful speaking voice as the narrator!
Wow. I applaud you for your hard work and the thought put behind this.
While I love seeing Fogen’s story debunked, I can’t help but think videos like this help the defense team. Professor, how helpful do you think a video like this and LLMPA’s video beo to helping the defense bolster its case against any potential arguments that the prosecution may have? Forgive me if you have answered this type of question before.
The defense is tied to the defendant’s statements. Any variation to adjust to this and other videos should be summarily dismissed for what it is: Yet another lie.
The prosecution may have thought of all these facts and arguments, but if they haven’t, I think we’ve done a pretty good job covering all the bases.
I am not the professor but let me drop some mathematics
You know the story of the boy who cried wolf?
So if Fogenhats is shown to be a liar, constantly changing his story, what makes you feel any sane, reasonable person will believe him after that, with yet another story?
Considering the enumerable amount of lies and contradictions told by the defendant, what is the likelihood of him actually just telling the truth?
Fogenhats has intent, motive, and opportunity for the indictment of murder 2
He’s the guy 100%
All the evidence is fairly clear of what happened
He cant take back all the hard scientific evidence with lies
The state does not have to publicly release their work product so there are many aspects even Omara is not gonna know how the state will argue it’s case
Once again, excellent post. An obvious compilation of hours of work by brilliant minds.
Whonoze, it seems, stops short of suggesting a relationship between Zimmerman and Witness 13. However, he does seem to pop up both quickly and boldly and sets about taking pictures–rather than, say, initiating CPR on the body before them. Do we know anything about W13? Is there a prior relationship with Zimmerman, and could Z. have called him, say prior to the police call?
Also interested in his suggestion that Z. was still at home when Trayvon cut between the houses. I wish he had followed up on this with a bit more detail.
let’s put it this way: If you came upon a guy who had a loaded gun and had just killed somebody, would you hang out and kinda chit chat with him or would you possibly be a little afraid and a little freaked and kind of hang back and wait to see what was going on and whether you felt safe?
He knew Fogen. They knew each other and had probably had lots of conversations about these young Bpa-lack males running around ruining the neighborhood.