We are Having a Great Discussion Re the Trayvon Martin Case

Monday, January 28, 2013

I want to keep this short because I am enjoying and learning from the lively discussion and the opportunity to participate as the spirit moves me.

Special thanks to Whonoze for his video and I must say that I agree with his theory that the defendant approached Trayvon from the south. Not at all sure, however, that he went that far south before heading north on the dog walk toward the T.

I want to restate what I have said in the past about the difference between what the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt versus proving every conceivable detail that happened that tragic night. The defendant is the only living person who knows what happened that night and he has chosen to lie about everything except getting out of his truck and shooting Trayvon. He has no reason to lie unless telling the truth would convict him of murder. His lies demonstrate conscious awareness of guilt and a desire to avoid being found guilty. If I were a juror, that would be all I would need to know to vote guilty.

People have presented different theories regarding the unknown details, but there is no need for us to all agree on one theory. Basically, I think all of them pertain to facts that the prosecution has no obligation to prove or disprove in order to convict the defendant of second degree murder. As much as we would like to know everything that happened, we are unlikely to ever know every detail. That’s why the focus of every trial is on the elements that must be proven, which party has the burden of proof, and the definition of that burden of proof.

The burden in a criminal case is proof beyond a reasonable doubt and doubts about facts that do not need to be proven are not reasonable doubts.

We can debate whether that is a good or a bad way to determine guilt or innocence, but there is no debate regarding whether that is the way our system is designed to work.

Two Sides to a Story said,

“I also think we shouldn’t get obsessive about our particular opinion in the threads – it just fills the space with unnecessary noise. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather see a high level of data to noise rather than the other way around. I think it’s sufficient to voice one’s pet theory once in a thread and perhaps reply once or twice to communicate with another commenter, but insisting everyone see it your way over and over gets tedious. It’s OKAY if people disagree with the video and your pet theory. Perhaps when you insist on a particular viewpoint, it’s YOU that is unable to grasp another theory.”

I agree with her statement and I urge all of us not to fall into the trap of failing to see the forest for the trees.

Carry on!

365 Responses to We are Having a Great Discussion Re the Trayvon Martin Case

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Had it not been for the bond hearing where GZ surrendered his credibility, in what appeared to be a desperate attempt to flee prosecution. GPS phone data, in which it appeared that Trayvon turned around and went back north. Would provide some marginal support for GZ’s claim. However, as things stand now, we cannot take GZ’s word for where he would be, if and when TM came back north. Meaning that we cannot rule out that GZ is behind TM as he is moving north. We have no GPS records for GZ, to show us where he went. Instead we have only the word, of a man who has proven he can and will lie to benefit himself, despite the dishonor that goes with discovery. He has lied before, there can be no doubt that, given the opportunity to do so, he will lie again and again.

  2. racerrodig says:

    This is a typical spew from Fogen on HP

    “No they won’t? Crump and BDLR will testify.
    Many SPD police will testify – most will support GZ.
    It’s over — the entire SPD investigation will be brought
    forward in support of self-defense.”

    Needless to say I ripped into that one.

    So now because some cops say it was self defense, this case just goes up in smoke…..

    Let me get this straight…I murder someone and if I tell a cop who was not there I was defending myself…..I win???? Wow, what a system.

    • Xena says:

      @racerrodig. Yeah, I read one comment on Yahoo where the Zidiot thinks that O’Mara can depose BDLR and attorney Crump. All that does is demonstrate how ignorant Zidiots are and their lack of motivation to learn. They could contact any law professor in their local area and ask whether a prosecutor can be deposed or made to testify in a case they are prosecuting.

      The Zidiots want the case to be about everything other than defending GZ on 2nd degree murder charges.

      • racerrodig says:

        I see that guy StraightShooterZ ripped them up……wish I had done that, if you know what I mean.

        So deposing Mr. Crump proves what…..??

        You have it dead on with your assessment. The facts matter not.

  3. willisnewton says:

    I gave up trying to figure out where anyone walked or ran. It’s isn’t where Fogen says it was as far as I can tell and that’s all I’ll need to know. Like everyone I have my hunches but IMO there are several very good possibilities that all end up with a dead kid with skittles in his pocket lying on the ground near a lying killer. The similarities outweigh the differences in the end. It was dark. They ran around, or walked around, or some combination of the two. Someone closed a gap between them, and it was either the frightened youth with no history of violent criminal behavior who was talking to his girlfriend on the phone, or the guy who is lying his arse off and has everything from domestic abuse to beating on undercover cops in his background, and who chased the kid with his car and on foot into the literal and figurative “dark alley” for no good reason despite a verbal admonition. Again, we can’t “know” which it was but we can damn sure have an opinion on what’s more likely.

    My own personal explanation / best guess is no better than any other, but the timing I worked out in my head is slightly different than whonoze but not by much. I think GZ parked closer to the mailboxes and TM walked slower to pass him in a manner that is almost not discernibly different from Whonoze’s animation. But here is the difference: I think the teen was walking around the start of the cut thru sidewalk when he started to run. Fogen reacts and in his haste to exit the car MISSES seeing TM turn south due to darkness, distraction, trees, excitement, whatever.

    I think TM took the grass path around the corner, the path seen in this photo:

    Taffee's idea of where GZ was on the ground. footpath in bg

    I speculate that Fogen’s description of the “suspect” headed to the back entrance is general; he isn’t headed to the front entrance since he came from that way and had a choice (in Fogen’s mind) to exit that way when the teen was by the mail kiosk, so he must have a different goal in mind.

    I can go on from there speculating but we just don’t have the data to pin down one theory over another, despite all the seemingly tantalizing clues.

    But I also think the timing of Fogens jog/trot leaves him most likely at the T and not at RVC when he stops to bang on his flashlight. He gets out of the car fast but doesn’t really start puffing until he’s taken ten seconds or so to gather his various deadly and faulty belongings somewhat, and close the door etc.

    But so many things are possible. I tend to think that is worthwhile (since it makes the easiest sense to me) to assume Fogen is telling lies based on general movements he did make (at first) since he was always unsure if there were witnesses or not.

    I do think there is something possible in the idea that the at least one or both of them went north and circled those buildings you show on your showme link above. But I’ll be damned if I know how it can ever be proven or disproven.

    I think like your idea about W2 seeing the kid Austin, too as the figure she glanced at moving from south to north 15 seconds before the gunshot. As much as I’d like her to be a star witness, she won’t be I’m afraid. The prosecution has claimed they have “witnesses” (plural) to a foot chase before the shooting. They could mean Dee Dee and W2, and they could simply be bluffing, and they could even mean a “surprise” witness or two, we just don’t know.

    What I’m 100% sure of is that Fogen lied to investigators about his movements on TTL with his car. Anyone who does that is capable of a great deal of obfuscation, omission and misinformation and the invisible clues I’m more interested in are the ones that seem to establish a pattern for the WAY he lies, so that one can project those patterns over his statements about actions in the missing minutes and the physical struggle. “When in doubt GZ leaves it out,” is my pithy saying that I’d use in a courtroom were I a television-friendly prosecutor type, much like “if the glove does not fit, you must acquit” was famously employed in the OJ Simpson murder case. But there are other patterns to think about and discuss.

    • Xena says:


      I gave up trying to figure out where anyone walked or ran. It’s isn’t where Fogen says it was as far as I can tell and that’s all I’ll need to know.

      This is pretty much my thought too, and I think prosecutors will take that position rather than try to fill-in-the-blanks. GZ said it happened at the T. The location of the bullet casing and Trayvon’s body proves that GZ lied.

    • Mirre says:

      O’Mara claims the state turned over GPS locations recovered from Trayvon’s phone, but say data from 2/26 are missing. So we may find out after all.

      But all that matters is that Trayvon was killed 40 ft south of the T.

      • willisnewton says:

        Don’t misread that news story. It contains ALLEGATIONS made by O’Mara , some to the court and some to a reporter known to run with what she is handed but offers no proof that what he says is “missing” edited, etc actually exists.

        It’s an interesting new angle on the case however. Can’t wait to hear the state’s response, and / or see the actual forensic data referenced if it exists.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        In the motion for specific discovery filed today, no requests are made about the GPS records. They want to know who got the phone from FDLE and who did the analysis.

        I sure would like to see those GPS records.

  4. tonydphotog says:

    I know that fogen’s bloody face photo has had plenty of discussion on whether it’s real, or altered. I was curious to see if the b&w photo matched the aspect of the color photo, so I placed the b&w photo on the color photo to compare. They didn’t match.

    • Mirre says:

      How did you compare the 2 photos?

      • tonydphotog says:

        I cut out only the head in the b&w photo, pasted it onto the color one, and then adjusted them both to the same size. If there was no manipulation, then the eyes, nose, mouth, etc. should have lined up perfectly. They didn’t line up. I’m working on animating it, so I can show how they’re different.

    • willisnewton says:

      Post your result, please. When you say aspect, do you mean like 4×5 vs 3×6? Or do you mean the face doesnt match the other face? The B+W is a printout and may be cropped due to the operator not thinking it matters. (It may not matter.)

      • tonydphotog says:

        @willisneton – The face doesn’t match the other face exactly. The differences on the right side of his face are more noticeable, and his eyes are slightly off. His left ear seems to match almost perfectly, though.

    • jd says:

      Tony I don’t see what you seem to see.

      Here is what I did:


      There are many explanations for the VERY SLIGHT difference in alignment that I could discern, which shows IMO that the B+W photo is SLIGHTLY more squat than the color. This would be easily attributable to the vagaries introduced by comparaing an image that was printed and then scanned vs a digital copy of the original file.

      Any other difference is simply that one is in color and the other is a poor scan of a B+W printout of the image.

      To my eye this is all perfectly normal and “nothing to blog about.” YMMV.

      Besides, what’s to gain or lose by slightly altering the ALIGNMENT of an image? I don’t see the point. Photoshop artifacts and errors are usually a lot more obvious on close examination. I don’t see any evidence of that. It’s possible the color/ contrast / brightness was adjusted globally on the whole photo but that’s also normal for someone who wants to present an image showing a human face.

  5. willisnewton says:

    I’m more than willing to hear and consider what you think happened, jason, but sadly I can’t really follow you without a map at least with some lines on it. That’s probably my own failing but I’m still curious what you are speculating about and what evidence you have to offer to corroborate parts of it with.

    I hope you consider that the only car visible on TTL around the time Fogen claimed he was on TTL is the one that seems to troll the mailboxes and then return to a position he marked on a map before quickly crossing it out and then pushing a demonstrably false narrative.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      If GZ saw Trayvon heading south towards the back entrance on TTL, the dog walk or RVC, why not drive his car there?

      He tells Sean he is heading towards the back entrance before he closes his car door. Everything he told Sean about Trayvon was intended to make Trayvon sound suspicious.

  6. Malisha says:

    “Billy Lee” was the one who first began to sell the theory that Trayvon Martin went nearly all the way to his father’s house and then doubled back, by saying that he died a mere 70 feet from his father’s house and Billy Lee wished he had kept going TO his father’s house, putting the blame for the whole incident on the victim, who Lee said should have gone home (rather than messing with a neighborhood watch hero, see?). Coupled with Fogen’s obviously false claim that Trayvon ducked down toward the back entrance and THEN “emerged again from the darkness” to challenge and attack Fogen, that put the idea into people’s heads that there was a deliberate, planned-out, knowledgeable double-back action on Trayvon’s part. So they would have us believe Trayvon is the one planning out what to do and where to go (when he clearly does not even realize Fogen is out of the vehicle) while Fogen is wandering around in a fog of bad memory, piss poor pocket putting (“Oh dear where is my cell phone when I need it?”) and obsessive address searching (“I think I gave them MY address”). It’s too stupid to spend time on. Trayvon could have been startled and confronted anywhere along the way and he could have broken free from the initial grab and run as fast as he could, while screaming, in any direction, including south and including doubling back north because Fogen was gaining on him — any combination of slippping, running, falling, tripping, lunging, rolling, wrestling (basically anything but skipping) could have marked the progress of either or both of them until finally Fogen had Trayvon by the hoodie with his left hand and gun pointed at Trayvon’s chest in the right hand and we hear the final terrorized scream. Nobody can map it out and nobody has to map it out.

    As long as we can rule out the story Fogen told, and we CAN, then what actually happened between “These assholes, they always get away,” and “I shot him” is not an issue, in terms of facts that prove murder-2. Murder-2 consists of killing (that’s admitted) with a depraved mind (that’s proven by the NEN call) and ill will (ditto) and without justification (proved by ruling out self-defense).

    BTW, I think that Trayvon’s screaming was not meant to get the kind of help where someone runs out of their house and stops the killer; it was meant to scare Fogen away, because Trayvon assumed that a stranger he called “creepy” (therefore probably a predatory pedophile, since most people regard creepy strangers lurking about in the dark to be at least possible predatory pedophiles) was someone who would run away if there was a lot of screaming and attention. Think of it. Somebody prowls in a car; then you see him on foot; it’s dark; nobody’s around. If you’re young and good looking, and the guy doesn’t come up and demand your wallet, he’s likely to be a predatory pedophile. Most of those, by the way, would disappear immediately when there was screaming going on.

    • willisnewton says:

      Thank you for putting that so well, Malisha. I agree with every word.

      • Malisha says:

        Thanks, WN. I have come to these conclusions by putting myself NOT in Fogen’s shoes but in Trayvon’s shoes. When I have ever been in dark places at night without companions, I have considered any unidentified, non-uniformed person who seems to demonstrate some interest in me (without calling out to me to say, for instance, “Hello Hello, do you live around here?”) as a possible danger. Screaming is ALWAYS the solution to the problem of fear based on the possibility of imminent assault. ANY person who is up to no good will run away when you scream. I have never even carried a weapon; unless someone comes up behind you when you didn’t hear or see them, if you scream bloody murder, they hightail it.

        If you put yourself in Fogen’s shoes, you can never figure this out. If you put yourself in Trayvon Martin’s shoes, you can.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You realize what you’ve just said don’t you?

          You have just said that GZ wasn’t bothered by screams, which means he did not care about witnesses.

          There are only two conditions where a person committing a crime would not care about having witnesses. 1. Is where the perpetrator is hell bent on committing a crime that they need to accomplish no matter the circumstances, and hope to explain it away later. Or, 2. A person who believes they are covered for anything they do!

          In neither case are we talking about someone trying to keep the neighborhood safe, we are talking about someone who intends to do serious harm to someone, if they do not get their way. Or, who will kill to conceal the real facts surrounding the encounter.

          Either way, GZ having grabbed TM by the clothing, he had committed the crime of unlawful detention and kidnap. There is absolutely nothing in the entire narrative, that would give him the right to detain TM, not even if he had been assaulted by him, which he had not been.

          GZ’s failure to identify himself, which is required by the nature of GZ’s explanation of his own actions, strips GZ of any and all rights to defend himself against any act of aggression, because any such act of aggression would be termed at law as self defense by another party.

          So, GZ, was committing a crime when he drew his weapon and fired.

          GZ had already committed a crime, when he claimed that he refused to identify himself to TM, when TM came by him, because he was afraid. If GZ was so afraid, that he could not identify himself, then he should have withdrawn at that point by driving away. Instead he continued to follow, after refusing to identify himself, after making an obviously false claim of being afraid of the subject.

          GZ was armed and therefore dangerous. GZ knew that should he be assaulted he would rely on his firearm as his defense. Therefore GZ should never have left his vehicle, because by doing so, he created a situation where he would be reliant upon his firearm. Doing so was a crime in itself, since he was stalking a person who had expressed fear of him. He was pursuing a person who was trying to withdraw from him. He was pursuing a person who the law says should not have been pursued, because there was no legal reason why any such pursuit would be necessary.

          Thus George Michael Zimmerman is guilty of killing a person while he, himself, was in the process of committing several crimes.

          • Lonnie….Add to that mix, is that there are questions (as yet unanswered) as to whether or not fogen had a LEGAL CCW…..And the fact that he used his wifes firearm in the murder. Again no records have been found where fogen purchased a firearm.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Which leads to a great question: Does a ccwp cover the weapon owned by the permitee? The one that he trained with? Or, does it cover any weapon he or she can get their hands on?

            GZ was in such financial straits, I kinda thought that perhaps MO had lent him the money to get two weapons. Apparently that wasn’t the case, so GZ got the gun for Shelly because… ??? Was there some reason for him to believe that he would not be able to obtain a ccwp? Not even with his father and Chief Lee to help him?

            Because in the end, it does not appear that he had the right to carry a concealed weapon at all. He certainly had no right to carry one, when he got out of his car. Since, even going in the same directions as the only other person outside, in that area, on that night, would not be seen as an innocent act, but as an extension of the following act GZ had already admitted to and that TM had observed.

  7. jason goodman says:

    If gz was set on not letting tm leave out of back gate why not just drive to the back gate??? the whole advantage of being in a car is to gain ground quicker, to my knowledge gz says tm is running when gz is parked at the clubhouse on RVC st. To me it makes sense for tm to run home on RVc where his front door is located be it that he was found with no keys and the only person home was little chad by himself…I just dont see gz using his car to park an run after tm more like drive ahead an “cut” off tm using the “cut”through i need to learn how to make a video to show people what i mean…this is so simple to me.. i think all the treehouse fake timing and assumptions of tm already being home has made us all come up with counter theories when all along they have been off….

    • Eric says:

      Maybe the backdoor wasn’t locked? If Martin ran down Rvc, then why was Martins body found behind the buildings on Rvc? I’ve said this on another post, while GZ was in his car and saw Martin take the T, he also saw him cut right going south on the dogwalk. In order to stop him, he had to leave his truck that he could not take behind the buildings. So, he runs down TTL to the break in the buildings, and heads off Martin there.

  8. jason goodman says:

    Ive said this many times an ill say it again… IMHO tm was heading East on RVC st, aside from gz story what other proof do we have that he decided to head south east on TTL st??? we have none. lets suppose for a minute tm continued heading east on RVC st, would this not explain why george drives his car to the “cut” through an runs to the other side of RVC st to “cut” off tm who he already said was “headed toward the back gate aka his house aka south on RVC st? I dont think gz was heading north on dog walk an I dont think tm ever got past gz! if tm seen gz on the phone at the “cut” through would it not make sense for tm to back track on RVC st west bound an cut through the set of homes on RVC heading south to the “T”? at this point the positioning of the fight all makes sense an gz would be impeeding tm path home!!! just think about it… first time i heard 311nen call this is what is sounded like to me, gz didnt quite chase after more like “cut” off at the “cut” through………

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Or north cutting between a gap between the houses on TTL.
      TM heading south never made any sense to me. It doesn’t fit what we do know, and like you said, if GZ saw Trayvon heading south towards the back entrance, why get out of his car.

      I think this may be the path Trayvon took. I think GZ saw Trayvon when he started heading back towards the cut-through and followed him south on the dog walk.
      This second path is 950 ft. If he ran and walked part of the way, it probably would’ve taken him between 3.5 and 4 minutes to get to the spot where he was killed. That is about the same time between Trayvon running away and the beginning of the altercation.


  9. tonydphotog says:

    I don’t believe fogen was ever said that he was parked at the clubhouse in the NEN call. He gives the clubhouse address, but says it’s the closest address he can give. He then continues to say that Trayvon is walking past the clubhouse, and now he’s coming towards him. Doesn’t sound like he’s parked at the clubhouse to me.

    • willisnewton says:

      In the NEN call he is asked where the teen is in the following manner: “he’s by the clubhouse now?” and answers “yes, and now he’s coming towards me.” That’s not walking past the clubhouse as you say, tonyphotog but more like leaving the vicinity of the clubhouse heading to a place where Fogen is, which can certainly be argued grammatically means Fogen is not where the teen is and therefore someplace else.

      If I were on second base and I told you “the runner was leaving first and coming towards me,” would it be necessary for me to tell you explicitly that I was on second base? I suppose I could be on third base. Would I have the right to later claim that I was really on first base when I said that? Of course not.

      When confronted finally with the NEN recording itself, he’s initially insistent that he is close to the clubhouse and seemingly where his narrative placed him – in the clubhouse parking lot on RVC, but as the recording is played farther and father along he becomes “less sure” and finally sullen and silent on the matter as it becomes obvious to all in the room that he couldn’t have been there and still have his story make any sense.

      Fogen doesn’t exist outside of the space-time continuum, no matter how special he feels his case is, or how much he suffers from ADHD, ADD, PTSD, or “lmnop disease of the week” for that matter. Both he and Trayvon were SOMEWHERE when he made that spontaneous observation and there is only one general place where the timing of the call can be made to reconcile with all the other observations, and it isn’t either place GZ told investigators in his contradictory accounts.

  10. colin black says:

    Dennis I have no answer to how long the defence takes before resting.
    I was suprised when the prosecution rested.

    I dont go for an eye for an eye kind of punishment.
    Even more so if the person has to languish in solitery confeinment for decades before sentance is either comuted over turned or carried out.

    As a resident of the U K an we dont even have a cruell an unuseall punishment. Statute
    But that process screams cruel unuseall heartless mental torture an all sorts of unpleasant terms in my mind.. i m o..

  11. Dennis says:

    I’ve expressed my opinion before on how these unprovable theories only cloud the truth.

    For example, I see this in the 9/11 truth movement all the time.

    Unprovable: A pod attached to the North Tower plane fired something before impact.

    Provable: Nine Danish scientists conclusively found remnants of thermite and other explosive byproducts in multiple samples of WTC dust.

  12. colin black says:

    Just broke for lunch in Arias trial.
    My mind went to Chilee re VanDersloot as he fled there after leaveing Florezs body in his hotel room.
    An vt of both entering an only one leaveing alive,

    Extradition from Chilee to Peru was swift an basic.
    Drove him to the border in a jeep in hand cuffs an green flack jacket an shoved him over the border crossing
    In to the waiting hands of there Peruvian counterparts.

    Watching the Jodi Arias trial brought back memorys of a Mexican Footballer. With the unfourtunate name of Bheig Arias..

    • Dennis says:

      Any chance you know when the defense will be wrapping up their case? I don’t need to waste my time with that trial anymore since it is obvious that evil woman brutally murdered her love interest. What she did was beyond evil. I will dance in the streets if the death penalty is given to Arias.

      • My oh my! How bloodthirsty.

      • Dennis says:


        The death penalty helps the victim’s family sleep at night. It must be very disturbing for any of them to know that the killer is living, breathing, and being treated like a human being. Most people who object to the death penalty would most likely reconsider if one of their family members was murdered in cold blood.

        • cielo62 says:

          Dennis~ I actually support the death penalty but NOT because the victims have anything at all to do with it. I believe it is society’s duty to remove those unable to be present in society. Although honestly, prison is NO picnic. It’s a very heinous punishment.

        • Unless the defendant sentenced to death volunteers to be executed and withdraws all of his appeals, it typically takes between 12-20 years before the execution finally takes place and that assumes that the case is not reversed and remanded for a new trial. Seems to me people lose a lot more sleep riding that roller coaster of emotional ups and downs before they finally get a good night’s sleep as you put it.

          If the person had been sentenced to life without parole, chances are they would have moved on with their lives rather than remaining stuck waiting and hoping for an execution that might never happen.

          I also know family members of homicide victims who are opposed to the death penalty. My wife, Crane-Stationn, is one of them.

          LWOP also costs approximately 1/3 of the cost of a death penalty case and that includes the cost of incarceration.

          • TommysMom says:

            I’m in favor of LWOP rather than the DP simply because it is way less costly. My question would be is it less likely to be overturned?

          • Yes, LWOP is less likely to be overturned. Lots of DP cases get reversed due to errors that happen during the penalty phase. There also is a heightened level of scrutiny reviewing DP cases.

  13. colin black says:

    The country was Peru

    Nae bother i knew a was wrong
    somewhat disstracted as im multi tasking
    Watching Arias Case live
    Knew it would be corected.

    Ironic though as im wearing padington bear sweat shirt.
    Cheers Prof

    For perusin my post

  14. colin black says:

    GZ and She’lLie supposedly signed a contract to mentor for a year with the program they mentored through (stated on Hannity). Is there any way to find out about that

    Sure is you can find it at the same place as foggens assosites degree in criminal justice.
    Same place as he presently studying for an advanced degree to become a judge.
    Because as he explained to either Serrrino or Singleton ..both?..

    He cares so passionetly for the Bhlaack Children he mentors he dedicates his very career choices by them…..BARF BAG…
    Anyway he came to find out that they…Bhlack Children…
    Dont tend to trust L,E..an much as he respects the police an all.
    An much as he would like to joint L E his children mean more to him he is all they have…..BARF BAG.

    So saint foggen has deceided to forgo his dreams of pulling on the blue uniform an protecting his local citizens..
    For the sake of his beloved children he mentors every sunday night just before target practice oops shoping

    He is going to become a judge just like his Pop or at least the white gentleman he refers to as his Father.
    Because as every sane thinking person on the planet knows.

    Thease Bhlach youths he mentors an loves so much an is dedicateing his life an careers to enchance an better there LIFES/
    Whom disstrust the police an law so much JUST LOVE JUDGES..

    You no the people that may have sent one of there brothers or sisters fathers ect to prison.

    So Rachel to conclude youll find the Children foggen allegedly mentored along with the othe bs he spewed re above in his imagination.

  15. colin black says:

    Jun says:

    January 29, 2013 at 10:08 am

    That is also not entirely true… it happens in other countries too


    It happens every ware as Johny Cochrane said the colour of justice in America is Green…………….Dollar Green….

    But its rempant every were .
    In the UK Arab Royals from oilrich gulg emirates commit crimes all the time includeing Rape Murder an many less heinous crimes but none the less through money an diplomatic immunity escape without even being charged.
    Internatinal head of the World Money fund or something recently raped a maid in a manhatan hotel an charges were dropped.

    Correction there was a consiqence he went on to murder another inoccent girl in Chilee or Bolivia?
    China is rampant with top comunist party leader doing all sorts of murder an rape kidnaping young girls from factorys or the country or young boys as sex slaves.
    Of course you never get to hear about it as Chinas media press ect is controled by the perpertrators of thease crimes.
    The UK is also no paridim of virtue as far as coruption goes…
    Power corrupts
    Does Absulute power corrupt?

    PS Above is not my opinion its factuall…………

    • You said,

      “Correction there was a consiqence he went on to murder another inoccent girl in Chilee or Bolivia?”

      The country was Peru.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Peru…hmm…..Professor do you find the Mom as a Peruvian a little convenient for Z? Considering all his passports…..Peru will not extradite back to the U.S. if the U.S. is asking for the death penalty?

    • Dennis says:

      Van Der Sloot’s dad was an ex-judge or something from what I heard. He pulled some strings to get his psychotic son out of trouble.

      His mother said he went to South America because he was in danger of being committed to an asylum, that is how crazy he is.

    • Jun says:

      I am gonna have to disagree with you on the China stuff you stated

      I think you are embellishing

      Yes there are some bad folks over there, but I would not call it rampant

      I don’t believe power corrupts but the wanting of power is what corrupts

  16. colin black says:

    Any takers on a Target Credit Card purchase during that time frame…


    I thought of that but reasoned no.
    Theres nothing quite as embarresing as haveing a a credit card decleined in front on a long que of people.
    We know there credit was maxed to the max,
    Any purchases they were makeing at that time frame was cash

    An probably is still at the moment if there useing cc itl be other peoples.
    With foggen saying put it om my tab you can trust me Im a decent MERICAN..

  17. cielo62 says:

    I hate missing an entire thread…. catching up.

  18. Dennis says:

    I am been fixated lately with the JonBenet Ramsey case since it has been back in the news.

    Only only America can you not be charged with murder when your 6 year old daughter is found molested, bludgeoned, and strangled in the basement with no signs of a break-in.

    • cielo62 says:

      Only a RICH American can pull it off.

      • Dennis says:

        Ya. I’m hearing claims of a pedophile ring run out of Denver which JonBenet may have become victim to at the hands of her parents.

    • Jun says:

      He’s being charged with the death now

    • Jun says:

      That is also not entirely true… it happens in other countries too

    • Malisha says:

      Dennis, I do not believe either parent killed JonBenet. Both of them know who did it and the person who did it was a client of their “cottage industry” kiddie prostitution ring. The brother knows who killed his sister and he would have told if the cops had thrown both parents in jail for “child endangerment” [the autopsy proved that JonBenet had a “healed sexual injury” from penetration SIX MONTHS BEFORE HER DEATH] and put the boy in foster care. As soon as the boy felt safe, he would have revealed what happened to his sister.

      The perp is long gone and was probably out of the country by the time the autopsy was performed. I don’t think the perp’s DNA would have been in any of our databases because probably he was just a wealthy businessman from somewhere who was a practiced pedophile.

      Some Colorado cops and I discussed the whole case for hours and hours and hours during Public Health Service conferences when I used to be a lecturer on the subject of child abuse. Not just Colorado cops, of course — many other attendees, but the Colorado cops were the ones who initially brain-stormed it with me. I wrote to the guys running the investigation at the time and they never even responded. The theories we developed were all very well supported by ALL the physical evidence and the known facts of the case.

      A forensic psychiatrist (who has now died) in New York also went over all my notes on the case and believed that was the explanation.

    • gblock says:

      That’s beautiful, Xena!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      What beautiful and moving words of caring for Sabrina and Tracy! Thank you so much for creating this message, Xena!

      I love how you wrote his birthdate and then the word “forever”.

      Kindheart, your touching words will be so uplifting for Sabrina and Tracy!

    • Very well done.

      Thank you.

    • looneydoone says:

      I’m a pretty tough old bird, but that tribute unleashed a flood of tears. I do not understand how Trayvon’s family has maintained such strength and dignity throughout this ordeal. They are certainly worthy of respect and admiration. Extraordinary people !

      • Xena says:


        I’m a pretty tough old bird, but that tribute unleashed a flood of tears. I do not understand how Trayvon’s family has maintained such strength and dignity throughout this ordeal. They are certainly worthy of respect and admiration. Extraordinary people !

        INDEED! Sybrina and Tracy did the right thing, the right way. They have endured the demeaning, slander, and hate, and continue to stand. I am grateful to them for sharing their love for Trayvon with us. Love for Trayvon shall never die.


    • Very nice! I posted it on the IS thread.

  19. bgesq says:

    @whonoze- your syntax/punk-coon analysis is brilliant. Thank you so much.

  20. Rachael says:

    GZ and She’lLie supposedly signed a contract to mentor for a year with the program they mentored through (stated on Hannity). Is there any way to find out about that?

  21. sdunn5 says:

    Just a note O’Mara deposed Witness 18 on 1-23-13….wonder how that worked out for them!!

    • Xena says:

      We’ll probably know based on whether the Zidiots claim to have her personal info, because they sure want to intimidate her into not testifying in court.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Indeed Xena indeed. My heart tells me this will not happen. I think the teacher has protection. I have to believe this because her 911 call was why I started following this case. It broke my heart, but it moved me to write to the Seminole Communications Center last March.The 911 operator was so kind I thought he was amazing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I embrace the teacher with my love and ask that she be blessed with strength and calm.

    • Jun says:

      She’s what we call “keepin it real”

      I think she will pull through because her morals mean more to her than anything else, just by judging her reaction and honesty since the beginning of the case

  22. Two sides to a story says:

    Perfect birthday remembrance . . .

  23. LLMPapa says:

    Trayvon wasn’t a punk.

  24. colin black says:

    racerrodig says:

    January 28, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    “I think it was ShelLie personaly whom spotted him sheltering there on her return from grocery shopping.”

    Very interesting thought. What happens when they pull up that Target video that shows SheLie in the Snack aisle at about oh, say……..6:30 ?? or so.

    Damn….there goes that “I” was going shopping story.


    We wont be able to veiw them though as the discs that record for shopliffters ect .
    Are re written over an over.
    They only keep footage deemed pertinet to any incident that happened robberys shoplifting purse snatches.
    As nothing like that happened.
    An S P D didnt think it nessesery to reqeust those discs as foggen told them he never made it to Target
    So thats possable evidence thats gone for ever

  25. SRA says:

    Trent’s video is very interesting.. Who is the young girl that FT is harassing?

  26. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Okay…..I understand the various speculations put forth on the last page and the reasons behind them.

    Now, I would love to hear from all of you about pieces of evidence at the scene.

    Specifically, what are your speculations as to what caused the following items to fall out of the hands or pockets of gz and Trayvon?

    Keychain w/ lit flashlight
    TM’s phone
    TM’s headphones
    gz’s tactical flashlight

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      gz is silent on this issue.

    • whonoze says:

      I think GZ was using the little flashlight after the shooting and dropped it when when surrendering to Smith. (On his 911 call JohnW6 says “there’s two guys in the backyard walking around with flashlights” well before Smith arrives on the scene. So if guy #1 is JonW13, that means either GZ had a flashlight or John was seeing things… )

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ah…..I missed that timing with John’s call. Wow. I am definitely going to think about that now.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, it he did drop it afterwards, it should be checked to see if any of Trayvon’s DNA (blood or saliva) is on it.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That is…….Trayvon’s DNA from gz’s hands transferred to the keychain.

        Maybe, now it will not matter that gz washed his hands at the police stations.

      • That’s a very good point. The defendant’s tactical flashlight was found on the ground next to Trayvon’s body. That would indicate that he was using the smaller flashlight and must have dropped it up near the T after the shooting, not before as some people have claimed. They argue that he dropped that little flashlight when Trayvon supposedly attacked him at the T.

        That’s one more little piece of evidence that just fell into place for me.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ah…of course……. we have all been pointing out that Trayvon had none of gz’s DNA on his hands…so he probably did not punch gz……and, if he did not punch gz at the tree…..the keychain did not land there because of the punch.

        Also, as far as the tactical flashlight, Serino basically told gz that he knew gz was able to get that one working by tapping it……Serino’s way of saying to gz that he knew gz was using that tactical flashlight when gz was searching for Trayvon.

        Whonoze, I now think you are getting quite a few things correct.

      • Xena says:


        I think GZ was using the little flashlight after the shooting and dropped it when when surrendering to Smith.

        I agree — even considered that Jon may have used it when taking the pic of the back of GZ’s head. The pic he took of Trayvon’s body does not have the same lighting as the one he took of GZ’s head.

      • Mike says:

        I believe you may have miss that the witness John aka mistrory asshole flashlight man says that he see the keychain flashlight on the ground as soon as he walks up. I think he dropped it as soon as he realized that Martin was close by.

      • pat deadder says:

        Can I ask unrelated questions ”What about fogen’s gang tatoo is that relevant” Also is Omara obligated to say how much money they have I mean maybe he’s lying to get more blood money.Wish I could have you guys ability.p.s. I don’t think Trayvon hid I don’t think it enters his mind the guy would follow him on foot or else he would not keep his ear phones in as they block out sound.Was he talking to Dee Dee while he was running.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Whonoze’s video made me realize he could have dropped it post-shoot, after walking toward Teacher’s home, when he saw Police.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        That is, dropped his key+flashlight.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Wouldn’t Fogen be more likely to have dropped his flashlight and keychain with smaller flashlight during the struggle and then picked the keychain flashlight up again, and then perhaps put it down again a second time when police arrived? He stated he was afraid that the cops would shoot him, so it would make sense that he would empty his hands as well as reholster his weapon.

  27. racerrodig says:

    “I think it was ShelLie personaly whom spotted him sheltering there on her return from grocery shopping.”

    Very interesting thought. What happens when they pull up that Target video that shows SheLie in the Snack aisle at about oh, say……..6:30 ?? or so.

    Damn….there goes that “I” was going shopping story.

    • seallison says:

      That is exactly why I say that we need more evidence to determine who went where. We have not seen those tapes of Target, Kohls, etc.. either.

    • gblock says:

      “Damn….there goes that “I” was going shopping story.”

      As well as the “we were mentoring kids” story.

      • racerrodig says:

        If there were any kids we’d have known by now for sure.

        • blushedbrown says:


          I have posted awhile back that I don’t ever think it was a mentoring program. Like you said we would of gotten some notification from the program stating,”Yes he did mentor and for privacy matters we will not reveal the childrens name”. At least something to that effect would of been said.

          But I also stated that GZ is always changing things to make it seem more then it actually is or changing the facts to make himself look better.

          Hence mentoring in actuality IMO, is babysitting. It sounds darn better then saying “babysitting”. Shellie could of done this while collecting unemployment, not reporting the income and do it while studying online.

        • kindheart101 says:


          Hey friend! I was in the treehouse, shaking a hornets nest last night, and I was given a message for you. 🙂 Darlinsass said to say Hello! She reads the comments here, but is hesitant to post. I think I’ve convinced her to join in. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Tell her “Hi” right back….I never post on the Outhouse but I make references to it on HP and just shred them. Then it gets back and since I have one name here and another one there…..it drives them insane

          • kindheart101 says:

            I’m hoping she’ll come in and post. I’ll pass it along. 🙂

      • kindheart101 says:


        Wow. When I heard about the children I said the same thing. What would they mentor them about? What could they show, or teach them? Lifestyle? (Not) How to get ahead in the world? (Not) How to be a good person? (Not) How to tell the truth? (Not) How to have a close family? (Not)……………….I agree with you. They were babysitters, plain and simple.

        • blushedbrown says:



          I am currently looking for a portion from the Hannity interview that talks about how long he was “mentoring”. I know I remember Hannity saying he had been doing it for years, but the reply from GZ it was only a couple of months. I totally remember it because Hannity’s face was all like ” What the hell”. I just said on national television that you mentored for years, and now you are saying only months. I will go bonkers if I don’t find it. 😡

        • racerrodig says:

          I’m a little computer illiterate BUT Google “Peyton Manning SNL United Way Skit” and that’s probably what he was up to, exclusive of the football game.

      • FactsFirst says:

        @Blushed @kindheart I have a copy of the hannity interview straight from FOX! I hope it helps… BUT PEEP GAME on Fogen’s answer to Hannity’s question as to what happend a minute “BEFORE” he shot Trayvon!!!


        Damn! I just noticed that y’all! WOW! So Fogen called an officer that night??? I WONDER WHO!!! This is a bombshell to the case! check it out on page two of the trancript towards the bottom of the page just after (BEGIN VIDEO) http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=1

        • racerrodig says:

          This is how utterly stupid Fogen is……..

          “GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I haven’t really had the time to reflect on it. When I was in jail, obviously I was in solitary confinement and I had a lot of time to think and reflect. I just think it’s a tragic situation, and I hope it’s the most difficult thing I’ll ever go through in my life.

          “I haven’t ……had the time to reflect….”

          “….I had a lot of time to think and reflect….”

          What a numbskull…

          • blushedbrown says:

            Unfreakin’ real!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            He’s in serious need of a high colonic.

          • blushedbrown says:

            LOL 😆 LOL 😆

          • racerrodig says:

            He needs something and I believe he’ll have at least 35 years to actually figure out if he did or did not reflect on this. After that he’ll probably say to the effect when I was in prison I didn’t reflect on this until I was in prison.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, what a creep, he raced out of his house, grabbing his wife’s gun, and pretending that he had a ccwp. Both Lee and Wolfinger know that you can’t go around with a concealed weapon, if you don’t have a permit to carry one. So, before they shot off their big mouths about what things appeared to be, they should have checked to see what they were.

        • blushedbrown says:


          Is it a complete updated transcript? Could you please post if possible.

          I looked on the link Xena provided , but I don’t see what I am talking about. I wonder if that is an edited or rush transcript given. Fox is very sly.

  28. colin black says:

    Foggen tells us himself that his first location of Trayvon was at the mail box shelter.
    I forget what interveiw it was but when asked what drew his susspision onto Trayvon he said.

    Blah blah didnt look in a hurry walking slowly or leeeesurely.didnt look like hard core athlete…..And didnt look like he was collecting mail…..

    Mail was in his head because thats either the first locale he saw him at.
    Or he was directed to the mailbox shelter by someone else.
    I think it was ShelLie personaly whom spotted him sheltering there on her return from grocery shopping.
    Why else mention collecting mail?
    Who collects mail on a Sunday evening?
    He nearly slipped up on the reconstruction vt when asked where he first spotted him by saying my wife.
    Stops himself an starts again mo o.
    b t w whonose just got time to watch your video tonight.
    Brilliant an thankyou for your labours…….

    • Xena says:

      @colin black

      Foggen tells us himself that his first location of Trayvon was at the mail box shelter.
      I forget what interveiw …

      It was his interview on Hannity. What GZ said about that actually supports DeeDee’s statement that Trayvon was in the mail shed.

      • racerrodig says:

        And in this video Taaffe says Trayvon was spotted at Taaffe’s house. They can’t get their lies to match up even at this late date.

        • Xena says:

          @raccerrodig. You probably know by now that I’m one who believes that when the FBI says something, they have a reason. When the FBI told Taaffe that Trayvon entered at a location other than by Taaffe’s house, and Taaffe insisted that Trayvon entered by his house, was Taaffe simply repeating what GZ told him, or was he speaking matter-of-factly as though he witnessed it?

          So, either the FBI has evidence that Trayvon entered at a point other than Taaffe’s house, or they know something else about Taaffe that evening.

          • racerrodig says:

            As you know, i believe what you think, and I think when the Feds say something, they actually know what they are talking about.

            I swear that if there was a video of FogenPhoole grabbing Trayvon from behind, getting a wrist lock then grabbing Trayvon’s hoodie by the upper left side, drawing his pistol and……..

            Taaffe would say, “…..look, there’s where Trayvon (notice that racist mispronounces Trayvon’s name intentionally) induced George into grabbing him. Look at Trayvon, you can read his lips where he says, where’s my weed man”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good point, Xena.

    • seallison says:

      Yes Colin.I too wish I could remember where he said getting mail. But, he did – another sort a Freudian slip like – my wife and I, etc.

    • towerflower says:

      The Hannity interview says both, this is the quote:

      ZIMMERMAN: I felt he was suspicious because it was raining. He was in-between houses, cutting in-between houses, and he was walking very leisurely for the weather. I — it didn’t look like he was a resident that went to check their mail and got caught in the rain and was hurrying back home. He didn’t look like a fitness fanatic that would train in the rain. He just seemed like —

      He does mention the mail box area but he also mentions how TM was cutting in between houses. But he never really says where he was first spotted.

      • racerrodig says:

        The obvious is …..who the hell is Fogen to ask any of those questions and then take action resulting in a death.

        How could Trayvon not cut between houses, one only needs to look at a map.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Fogen had absolutely no rights, either by neighborhood rules or by law, to interfere in any way with anyone’s progress, nor cause anyone concern for their safety, by appearing to have an unexplained interest in them, most especially after dark when there would normally not be people around.

          GZ has no justification for what he did at all. Not even NW justifies him going to the mail shed to even have a fleeting look at Trayvon. The law not only does not permit it for GZ purposes, but it expressly prohibits it, for GZ’s stated purposes.

          There are many things that the law can and cannot stop a person from doing. But whether the law applies, depends on the situation and the intentions of the doer. GZ’s intentions and purposes are such that the law prohibited him from taking the actions he did, since they endangered the lives of both persons involved, needlessly.

          The proof that the law was correct in prohibiting such conduct, for the stated purposes, is that someone is dead, because someone did not observe the law. The first illegal act was to confront, the second was to pursue, and the third and fourth illegal act was to do so while being armed. We need to know if Shelly gave her permission for GZ to take her gun on his lawbreaking mission.

          • racerrodig says:

            All true ans well stated. Of course the Zidiot Nation fall back line is “If Trayvon had just run home like a good little boy…….” which of course is a deprivation of his rights to even exist freely.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It is my hope that the issue of what rights, each participant had, will be brought up and explained. With the defense invited to challenge them.

            Trayvon’s conduct is beyond reproach! Went to the store, made his purchases and attempted to return home. He had a right to walk leisurely in the rain, to even skip, dance, jog or run in the rain if he chose. Having committed no crime, nor being accused of any, he had a right to continue on his way, unimpeded if observed.

            He also had a right to observe the conduct of others, to detect their possibly undue attention of himself. Upon detecting a persons undue attention to himself, he is entitled to an explanation, or else, he’s entitled to believe that person a potential source of danger to himself, and therefore he has a right to attempt to withdraw from that persons presence. All of these legal actions Trayvon Martin did!

            GZ, on the other hand, had absolutely no right to come out of his house, for the expressed purpose of locating Trayvon, or any other person who he had not made arrangements to meet.

            If and when GZ should have encountered any person who was a stranger to him, GZ had absolutely no right to place that person under surveillance! If GZ believed that other person was suspicious, then he had a right to inform the SPD and withdraw.

            While GZ was engaged in any process he believed necessary to keep the neighborhood safe, he should not have been carrying a firearm while doing so. Nor should he ever be following any subject of his suspicions. GZ, in short, has absolutely neither rights nor duty to follow, confront, question or otherwise interfere with the process or progress of another person, or otherwise deprive them of their peace of mind by his actions.

            He has no right to draw his weapon an kill any unarmed person, regardless of any assault he may suffer, unless it is a reasonably deadly assault or one that is likely to cause great bodily harm. 17 year olds, who are not trained in martial arts or otherwise able combatants, are unable to mount unarmed assaults that would reasonably cause either great bodily harm or be deadly. Thus, the weapon that GZ should not have had on his person when he left his vehicle, should not have been drawn on an unarmed teenager. Less on an unarmed teenager whom he has just refused to identify himself to.

            The most immediate responsibility and duty that GZ had that night, and that he failed to accomplish, which makes his actions a crime, is the duty to identify himself to anyone who he has caused concern about himself and his intentions.

            GZ engaged in criminal conduct that night, and despite his inapplicable and irrelevant attempts to explain his own conduct, in such a way as to make it appear that he was engaged in excusable conduct. The law says no such thing. The law says that his attempted explanations are not relevant and that his actions were, in fact, criminal, regardless of what he may have thought he was doing.

            GZ would have one believe that it is a defense against a charge of bank robbery, to claim that the bank had stolen funds in it’s possession, and that he was merely relieving them of the stolen money. That is absurd and would not be entertained. Just as GZ’s claims of attempting to protect the neighborhood are absurd and should not be entertained. Since protecting the neighborhood should not in anyway, lead to anyone’s death at his own hands. The given rules prevent it! Anything outside those rules, in pursuit of the same stated mission, are crimes themselves.

          • kindheart101 says:


            Good Morning Lonnie. I haven’t been on much the last few days, so I’m sitting here reading a couple hundred posts trying to catch up. I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoy reading yours as they are always straightforward, and reasonable. Thank you.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That’s so sweet, thank you.

          • kindheart101 says:


          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            We need to know if Shelly gave her permission for GZ to take her gun on his lawbreaking mission.

            IMO, ShelLIE was the surrogate to purchase and register the gun and it was to be GZ’s gun. ShelLIE had a CCL, but they only had one gun. When GZ left the Ostermans, Mark said that he loaned GZ a gun. Had the Zimmermans had 2 guns, GZ could have taken his own.

            There is something fishy about GZ’s CCL. Investigators would not have looked into his completing the class if the paperwork was all legit.

          • racerrodig says:

            For the record, Fogen never had a valid CCW permit. The fact is he applied and paid the State fee. He never took the courses and then requested a refund which he got. The refund is in evidence. It is also a fact that there was no revocation of his CCW as SheLie’s was. Why ?? The State cannot revoke or suspend what does not exist, plain & simple.

            The state of FL has a record of everyone who has or has had a CCW permit or a purchase permit. Fogen is nowhere on that list.

            My Federal LE connections have stated to me flat out he never had a CCW permit. With this as a fact, he and he alone is responsible for Trayvon’s death even IF Trayvon attacked him and it’s on video.

            If any of us ever had a car accident without valid DL we would be responsible for EVERYTHING even if the other party a red light. The reasoning is if we were not on the road the accident would not have happened.

            If Fogen has no CCW and does not carry a gun that night Trayvon does not get shot.

            In my opinion, Fogen knew he would never get a permit because of his psychological issues and I believe he was on his medication even then. It is also my opinion he had dad talk to Lee who made a call to some state clerk about the “paperwork SNAFU” and presto…instant CCW permit, invalid as it may be.

            Not only that, the law is very clear that EVERY time you are carrying a weapon, you must have your permit on your person. Who brought his wallet containing his permit to the cop shop…it’s in evidence….SheLie. They have no regard for the law.at all.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It is a crime for Lee to circumvent lawful procedures to obtain a permit for anyone, without them fulfilling the requirements of law. So, toxic man takes another one down another level again.

            Now GZ has no permit, is illegally carrying his wife’s gun, and is uttering false documents (read forgery), so he’s a criminal even before he leaves home on the hunt.

            So that now it’s a criminal that TM is running from! It’s a criminal who admits to the police that he’s engaging in a criminal activity, of stalking an innocent, unarmed child, with an illegally concealed firearm.

            Any police authority or prosecutor, who said that they could not find a flaw in GZ’s claims of self defense, is supposed to be put on trial therefore. They have clearly refused to do their duty under cover of claims of ignorance that never should have occurred.

          • racerrodig says:

            all true, Well stated and that is why there is an unemployed Chief of Police, an unemployed prosecutor and a Federal Investigation !!

            Gee…..Imagine that.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’m of a mind to believe that GZ is permit impaired. If he has no valid permit, it won’t matter what he claims, since his carrying a concealed weapon from his truck to the encounter means he was committing a crime by doing so. That means that he was already in the processes of committing several crimes when he fired the fatal shot. Making this a death by a criminal and therefore there is no SYG, or Self Defense claim possible. He’s just a hate filled criminal who has committed a murder. Tracy Martin is going to own RATL and probably a good piece of Sanford as well.

  29. jd says:

    I think the conclusions of whonoze’s video speak for themselves but wanted to point out to those who may have watched casually that IMO it serves to prove that fogen chased TM down TTL in a car-to-pedestrian chase, likely being the cause of the teen’s running.

    IMO much of the easily proven inconsistencies and contradictions in fogen’s statements to SPD can be traced to his desire to obfuscate and omit the car-to-pedestrian chase and all that it implied.

    Importantly, fogen drew a circle on the map exactly where he seems to have been at the start of TM’s move away from the clubhouse – with fogen’s car on the first bend of TTL. It’s this position that becomes the key to making the timing of his movements sync reliably with the NEN call recording’s descriptions of events – all the “here he comes/ there he goes” type statements.

    He quickly crossed this first circle out however, and moved it to the “final” position he claims in the video walk thru.

    The map was included in the evidence dumps, and his comments can be heard on the second recording of his interview with Singleton.

    Importantly, Dee Dee herself mentions the car-to-pedestrian chase in her first recording with Crump, but it’s all but unintelligible and for this reason the topic sadly was not brought up again when she was recorded by BDRL later. This was the first time he was “followed” and the “he’s behind me again” may be the first time TM saw Forgen on foot, we can’t really know.

    But the argument that stumps the band anytime you are trying to converse with a Fogen-defender is succinctly put when you ask them to place a mark on a map where the two persons were when he told the NEN call taker that the teen was “by the clubhouse now?/ yeah, and now he’s coming towards me.” The car to pedestrian chase is the ONLY way to make that call sync up with points on a map and the speed of a walking person. If you don’t belive me, try it yourself and you will encounter what I call “the long tail,” which is the phenomenon created when you assume TM moves at a more or less constant walking speed from anywhere near the clubhouse past the “final” position. If TM were to pass his car walking at that speed, he would be LONG GONE by the time Fogen remarks “he’s running.”

    Fogen tried to insist he was parked at the clubhouse lot when finally confronted with the NEN recording, and his reaction as the tape continues to play, and he is asked over and over by Singleton, “Where are you now? still by the clubhouse?” is telling. First he is instant, then silent and sullen. He’s clearly not only caught in a lie here, he’s put himself in a position where the prosecution, shoudl they go that route, can prove he lied to investigators by using ONLY his own words, a map and a stopwatch. There’s no introducing reasonable doubt into the map or stopwatch, and to refute or rebut his own contemporaneous statements and observations to SPD is folly. To me this is the easiest way for the prosecution to 100% destroy Fogen’s credibility. When a defendant contradicts himself, he’s either telling one lie, or two in the separate statements by definition since two opposing things cannot be true. In this case, Fogen told two lies and that’s twice as bad as telling one lie IMO.

    He’s already admitted he “followed” the teen on foot, but he told elaborate lies to obscure the car-to-pedestrian chase. I’m not sure the prosecution fuly realizes how they have him trapped on these points however given their official indifference to the surveillance videos and BDLR’s missing the significance of the remarks Dee Dee made to Crump about the car-to-foot chase.

    Time will tell, however, and this isn’t the only route to a conviction. IMO however it’s a sure one.

    full disclosure: I had imput on the video as a participant in the discussion at bcclist and other sites, and am “willisnewton” when i’m not on wordpress.

    Thanks Prof for hosting whonoze’s video, it’s something I fully endorse as far as the conclusions are concerned. The speculative movements are as he says, his own and like I always say, many things are possible; what Fogen claims happened is not possible.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Hi Willis, I have so much respect for the work and time you have put into this case with your crime scene analysis using photo enhancements. I have printed all your work out and place it in my notebooks.

      I agree fully with you that what gz claims is not possible.

      I also love the way Whonoze does an excellent job combining audio of witness statements and 911 calls, surveillance video, map of the Retreat with animation showing TM and gz movement.

      And, I agree with you that it shows that gz pursued Trayvon from one end of the neighborhood to the other…..first by car and then on foot. Whonoze’s video is very powerful for this reason.

      I understood very clearly Whonoze when he was relating fact and when he was speculating. He even prepared us for this understanding in his introduction.

      Why do you think gz crossed out the first circle marking his parked car?

      • Xena says:


        Why do you think gz crossed out the first circle marking his parked car?

        Because it changes his purpose for why Trayvon ran. You see, Trayvon was walking in the same direction before he ran. That indicates that GZ had no consideration that Trayvon was WALKING to the back gate. It was only when Trayvon ran that GZ believed that he was heading for the back gate.

        So, GZ thinks that by changing where he was parked, it changes Trayvon’s intentions when he ran.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Makes sense, Xena.

      • Tzar says:

        @ Xena
        it also marginally helps the address hunt story and SYG

        • Xena says:


          @ Xena
          it also marginally helps the address hunt story and SYG

          O’Mara already knows that GZ has no immunity under SYG, which is why he’s going for traditional self-defense. He should also know that the address hunt is torn apart when GZ told Serino and Singleton that he was on his way back to his truck while still talking to dispatch —- and had not given dispatch the address he went to RVC to get.

      • willisnewton says:

        It’s a long story why he crossed out the first (IMO correct) mark he made on Singleton’s map. I can’t summon the energy to line it all out, but suffice to say he’s realizing he can’t admit he followed/chased the teen down TTL and so he skipped ahead to where he parked at the end of the chase.

        When he first told the story to Singleton, he left out the alleged action by Tafee’s house and tried to begin the tale with the teen appearing “from the darkness” to sucker punch him. Singleton keeps letting him talk, but at each juncture leads him backwards for more detail, tripping him up. If you examine the statements in chronological order you see how he gets caught having to say not once but TWICE that he was directed to move his position to keep the “suspect” in sight, which is of course not borne out on the NEN recording but also ludicrous to imagine a 911 operator doing. “Can you go downstairs and describe the burglar, please?” is an obvious recipe for a wrongful death suit brought by a widow.

        “What a tangled web we weave; when first we set out to deceive.” Especially if you aren’t too bright to begin with, and Fogen is clearly not the sharpest stick in the bunch. He’s about as sharp IMO as a bowling ball.

        To believe Fogen is to imagine a scenario where not once, ever did he move BEHIND TM while in sight of the teen, not from Taaffe’s to the clubhouse, not down TTL to the cut thru, and not even while he was afoot “looking for a street sign.” It’s a great self defense tale -tailor-made to avoid the impression he profiled the teen, but it a work of pure fiction that strains credulity on the face of it, and falls apart at the seams drastically when contrasted with evidence. And, it is contradictory in many areas esp concerning the timing of alleged moves around the clubhouse parking lot, so by definition either one version or the other or BOTH versions of that tidbit are false. As whonoze’s video and many other things show us, BOTH versions are indeed false. The true timing of the NEN call and TM’s move is clear if you see Fogen’s car where he placed the mark and crossed it out. Fogen can claim confusion, ADHD, PTSD and whatever he wants but he can’t escape the bounds of physics and he and TM were both somewhere on the planet when he told the call taker “he’s by the clubhouse now? / yeah, now he’s walking towards me.”

        Fogen gave his many statements with out the benefit of recalling verbatim what he told Sean the NEN call taker, and IMO he probably didn’t think the call was being recorded, either. He said some ridiculous things hoping against hope that he was being believed and wouldn’t be challenged with the recording.

        It’s possible he was emboldened somewhat by the reactions of the first responders, JonW13 included. But Singleton and Serino worked a “good cop/ good lady cop” routine on him to keep him talking. And he did, continually adding contradictions and inconsistencies at every turn. Convictions are built on this every day, it’s the bread and butter of most cases like this. He played into their “cop tactics 101” ruse hook, line and sinker and guess who is sunk? Fogen.

        It’s important to see the “voice stress test” for what it is – a ruse to put Fogen in a room alone with Singleton for an awkward amount of time, causing him to fill the silence with potentially incriminating chit chat, and also more importantly to casually get him to tell the whole false narrative once again to a stranger, the “test administrator” from start to finish, and then at the end to give him the impression that he “passed” the test and should keep relating on a friendly basis with the investigators, ie, show up for the walk thru without a lawyer and continue to be interviewed without counsel present. (What an idiot. He’s so stupid he deserves prison, as does any fool, innocent or guilty who hears his Miranda rights and fails to wait for the lawyer. Here’s a clue, kids: homicide cops are generally not your new best friends, despite giving you a coka-cola in the interrogation room.)

        Short answer, why did he cross it out? Because he is both stupid, and a liar, that’s why. He hoped to lie and get away with murder.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh what a great explanation, Willis. Thanks so much for taking the time to write an answer to my question….and you certainly write well!

    • Xena says:


      He’s already admitted he “followed” the teen on foot, but he told elaborate lies to obscure the car-to-pedestrian chase.

      The video compiled by whonoze is outstanding, but it does not show videos of several other locations that Trent does in his video. In the following, Trent points out when we see Trayvon, and just how close GZ followed in his vehicle. It’s at about 4:16 into the video.

      IMO, what Trent sees as GZ backing in could be what Whonoze sees as GZ making a U-turn. Also IMO, each analyst of the clubhouse videos have something positive to offer in regards to what is or can be seen in the videos.

      • willisnewton says:

        Trent is working alone it seems and IMO is prone to excessive speculation. He’s also way off on the timing if you play the video to the end and make a “sync” mark from the arrival of the police cars, as whonoze and co. have done.

        His “flashlight” IMO is indeed where he places it, at the home of W11 or possibly JohnW6 but it’s an incredibly immobile flashlight that seem to be shaped like a rectangle…. IMO that is a window light upstairs coming on randomly.

        Trent also feels GZ knocks on a door, which the majority of people, Fogen included say is the sound of him tapping on his balky tactical flashlight.

        Trent’s other “flashlight” is IMO obviously a car driving to face the mailboxes flaring the camera lens from within the “blind spot” created by a floodlight poolside. Significantly, this car is almost assuredly Fogens, driving up to watch TM leave the mail kiosk.

        In other words, Trent means well IMO but could benefit greatly from some peer review and he needs to stick with what can be proven to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. He’s a garden variety CT person IMO and it makes me sad to call him that but that’s how it is.

        What the bcclist gang and whonoze surmise boils down to a pretty airtight sync for the NEN call recording and the videos showing a car on TTL where no other cars are around, and at the exact time when Fogen admits to driving in the area. But the movements are not in concert with what he told SPD investigators he was doing, and instead coincide with a much more coherent explanation that seems to show his deliberate motive to lie to conceal, obfuscate and omit a car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL that likely caused the teen to run away.

        Any uTurns on RVC are speculative. But IMO it is “beyond a reasonable doubt ” the car that trolls the mailboxes is either Fogen’s, or else he was never there at all, and he admits he was there. Fogen told an inconsistent, contradictory and self serving improbable story about where his car was but tellingly marked a map exactly where the poolcam video seems to show the same car that trolled the mailbox returns to – at the first bend in TTL, facing the mailboxes. Of course, immediately after marking this position on a map he amended it, crossing out the mark seconds before placing it elsewhere and telling for the first time the (impossible-to-reconcile with the NEN call recording) tale of TM “doubling back” from the T to ominously circle his vehicle, then to disappear again.

        It also worth noting that Dee Dee confirmed the car to pedestrian chase in comments she made to Crump, but the quality of the recording was so bad that no one has followed up on it that we know of. BDLR seems to have missed this angle and never asked Dee Dee specifically about HOW TM was being “followed,” assuming perhaps that it was all afoot. In fact, she reliably describes a car following TM that pretty much has to be where the timing of the NEN call suggests it is, on TTL between the two curves in the seconds after “these axxholes always get away.”

        Trent put a lot of thought/time into his video but IMO needs peer review before he goes off on tangents or speculative theories that lack grounding in good sense. At minimum however his theories fall apart on the basis of the spot he uses to “sync” the NEN call with the video. His reasoning for the sync,whatever it was, is not borne out when one brings the events to the arrival of ofc smith and the ambulance, etc. It’s not referenced in the whonoze vid, but the variations that narrow down the sync point were the major achievement in many ways that led to the worthy conclusions. It’s not possible to sync the audio and picture exactly, but if whonoze and co are off it’s by less than a few seconds on way or another and immaterial to the conclusions drawn IMO.

        Trent’s methodology is well-meaning, and his tactics are the same more or less as whonoze, it’s just that his skill and logic are lacking whereas IMO whonoze is simply better at the game. “Garbage in- garbage out” is the maxim of bad science. Whonoze includes peer review. Trent did not, and went off on a few tangents and needs to return to the drawing board, as they say and begin anew, which I hope he will. It’s good to build on the conclusions of others if you vet them yourself first. That’s basic science.

        Ghostly video artifacts and speculative theories about shadows don’t make a case. Putting all the elements together coherently is what builds a case. Whonoze, Amsterdam and Tchoupi among others at bcclist relentless vetted what went into that video that Whonoze compiled, and it’s not possible in the medium to provide footnotes but if it were one would be hard pressed to introduce reasonable doubt into the various parts that establish at a minimum that GZ pushed a false narrative to the SPD regarding his timing and movements in the moments leading up to his exiting his vehicle. It may not prove guilt of M2 but at minimum it destroys utterly the credibility of a man who has his life on the line as motivation to lie about the whole thing, and IMO it also establishes a pattern of lies that can be extended into the missing minutes where fogen applies his “when in doubt, leave it out” tactic as well as ascribing actions he took to those of the unarmed teen, such as “doubling back.”

        Will we ever know, absent a credible confession from Fogen “what happened?” Definitely not. But as I keep hammering away like a broken record, many things are possible; what Fogen claims happened is NOT possible.

        • Xena says:


          Trent put a lot of thought/time into his video but IMO needs peer review before he goes off on tangents or speculative theories that lack grounding in good sense. At minimum however his theories fall apart on the basis of the spot he uses to “sync” the NEN call with the video.

          Your comment is very long, and I’m no expert to confirm nor deny some of what you state. The entire theory about accomplices does not interest me because it is GZ who is charged and awaiting trial.

          Trent was the first to discover that the clubhouse timing was off before the state released discovery verifying that.

          Personally, I like the fact that Trent uses the videos from all the rooms. When he says that Trayvon just walked out of the mail shed, I do see a person passing. When Trent uses the video of the other room to show GZ’s vehicle following Trayvon, I do see headlights moving slowly.

          It’s up to each individual to decide whether they see what Trent sees and if they do, if it’s relevant. To the best of my knowledge, Trent, neither Whonoze, have been called as expert witnesses for the prosecution. Their work gives us understanding for why the prosecution entered those videos in discovery, and I suspect that something more will come out at trial that even our hard workers such as Whonoze and Trent do not yet know.

          I glean from everyone who has something to offer in understanding the videos. There is no “i” in “Team Trayvon.”

      • @ Xena, yes ma’am! Trent must have super vision because if he hadn’t pointed out this stuff i wouldn’t and couldn’t have ever noticed all this action!!

        that porch light is another reason i’m so disgusted in Jeremy and his GF.
        It IS SOMEONES porch light, so i there’s no doubt that same someone has MORE information but you know i guess we will not know who’s it is unless they say so.. btw, i just remembered something that could also explain who it could be too,, what about the witness that said they were bring groceries in when they heard a shot, yet they never heard screams?? anyone know off hand who that one is and where they live? i believe it was a lady…

        PS Xena, did you see the one where GZ is at the clubhouse door w his flashlight?

        • blushedbrown says:


          Wintess 19, the dog lady, she did hear moaning and groaning.

          you can find her location on the map.

          http ://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

        • Xena says:


          PS Xena, did you see the one where GZ is at the clubhouse door w his flashlight?

          I saw that in one of Amsterdam’s vids, and also the reflection of GZ’s face in another frame. Freaky! Kinda makes one wonder why GZ was looking inside the clubhouse because only residents have swipe keys to enter. Maybe looking for possible witnesses before engaging his plan???

          Lonnie has a theory and if he’s correct, then someone saw Trayvon leave that community, go to 7 Eleven, and begin his walk back.

          For GZ to look inside the clubhouse before Trayvon arrived back does imply there was something planned. Hopefully, GZ’s phone records contain answers.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Sure, if GZ is seen walking around the clubhouse before TM returns from the store, that means that GZ went home, got his truck and came back. If so, then the question would become, how would he have known when to come back out in time to catch TM at the mail boxes and not at FT’s? Oh, wait, he couldn’t catch TM at FT’s because TM used either the front gate or the cut through north of FT’s. Then ran to the mail shed because it was pouring down rain.

            On the other hand, it doesn’t have to be GZ whose being seen, it could be someone else involved in the set up.

            In any event, and I’ve seen these kinds of things happen before, there’s not even a very slim chance that Trayvon left home for the store of his own volition. He was lured from home by someone on a pretext of some kind. Remember, he’s been at RATL for six days this trip, and he’s been at RATL several times before, never once has he ever gone to the store by himself. So, how can anyone count on him making this particular trip? In the dark? In the rain? Why not leave an hour or two earlier when there would be light and even less rain? I mean, how much more unlikely does it have to get, that he will make his very first trip to the store, before someone says wait, this is just a wee bit too much to swallow?

            Remember also that Trayvon is a conscientious boy, he has to have had great trepidations about leaving Chad home alone! So, there had to be some pretty compelling reason for him to walk to the store, for his very first time, after dark on a rainy Sunday night. Someone went through a great deal of trouble to get him out there and whatever they did worked.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        What JD is saying that most of the effort that resulted in Whonoze’s video, was put into determining the actual start time of the videos. We are confident we got the time right within 5sec max.
        I can sympathize with Trent. I actually blogged about the videos a couple of days before Trent’s first video. I didn’t have any timestamps but my estimate about the time was 1 min 36 sec off.
        My blog post was also full of the same errors Trent is making. I’d watched every second of all the videos, and I know how difficult it is to begin this project when you have no reference material.
        I had a narrative in my mind, and you just start seeing things that may not be there.
        I appreciate Trent’s passion and the hours he put into his project, but I agree with JD, he needs peer review, like all of us do.

    • Tzar says:

      @jd- could there have been a second driver?

      • jd says:

        Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.

        IMO there is not a second vehicle involved but it is true that around the time of the gunshot a car leaves the area, driving from near the 2nd bend in TTL towards the mailboxes. Some have speculated that this is an accomplice fleeing the scene. Or, (IMO more likely) it’s a resident bystander, unaware of the events and the timing is coincidental.

        The timing of GZ’s certain arrival at the front of the mailboxes tells us that GZ did not seem to see TM enter by Taffe’s. This suggests there may have been a tipoff, or that GZ was “patrolling” at the time. Like the possible accomplice idea, neither theory can be proven without a confession from the defendant, or the alleged accomplice if they exist and can be found credible. But what is obvious is that GZ pushed a false narrative about his movements to conceal a car-to-pedestian chase down TTL, albeit a slow motion one of some sort. (And IMO he’s had plenty of experience being a jerk all by himself in the past. So yeah it’s possible but not really provable with the intel we are dealing with at present, and my personal opinion is that it is very unlikely.)

        If you care to go down the rabbit hole of “was there an accomplice” you have to surmise that the second car didn’t follow Fogen down TTL from near the mailboxes and may or may not have already been in the complex before GZ cruised the mailboxes intently. Then, you must assume since the second car didn’t have a likely visual on Fogen’s car moves, or that Fogen was occupied speaking to Sean the NEN call-taker, Fogen didn’t have the opportunity to contact an accomplice until after he ended his NEN call at the start of the “missing minutes.” Then it seems one would presume an accomplice arrived near the 2nd bend in TTL by coming from the back somehow, arriving in the area after a call from Fogen, or as the result of their own “patrolling” somehow managing to spot either the teen, Fogen himself or Fogen’s car without managing to make his own headlights visible in the pool cam, ie, without getting onto the second bend in TTL. All of that is POSSIBLE, but you are talking about a huge stretch of imagination to fill in the blanks and frankly the data isn’t there (yet??).

        Of course we all want to know if Fogen made more calls that evening, and when and to whom but at present we don’t have that info. He certainly held a phone up to his ear when JonW13 took an iPhone flash photo of the back of his head shortly after the shooting and before the arrival of ofc Tim Smith. And AFTER that seemingly he asked JonW13 to call his wife. Did he not reach her the first time personally? Or was he speaking to someone else? We don’t know but there would be a huge clue waiting there for the detective who could know that. The SPD and the FDLE had access to the physical telephone, yet we have seen no reports in the discovery materials about who he may have called before, during and after the shooting. Go figure.

        • Tzar says:

          I will read this later
          btw, I do not mean a second car but a second driver, as in the killer goes on foot while someone else drives.
          I like your Occam’s razor: many things could have happened but what the killer said could not.

      • willisnewton says:

        If there were a second person in the car they sure kept quiet. But sure, it’s possible. I don’t think it was Osterman, Taffe or Joe the Oliver based on their behavior post-arrest, but in theory it could have been that Shellie was in the car, and drove it off later when she heard the gunshot. I fail to see the relevance of any of that when considering the charges against the defendant however. If they are “the driver” they aren’t “the shooter,” by definition. If it’s true then he’s just a slightly bigger liar than he already seems to have been proven to be. And, you have to admit, maybe there was a slight bit of chivalry or whatever for him to deliberately leave her out of the tale. It’s possible.

        Again, many things are possible, what GZ claims happened is not possible.

        • blushedbrown says:


          I agree with Taaffe and Oliver not been there. Taaffee’s mouth for one and Oliver for being outed by O’Donnell. But Mark and Shellie, high on my suspect list of being “there” at the onset of the tragic events.

          Mark almost immediately took him and Shellie in that night. Was with him every step of the way, from the scene, to the police station, to the next day at the police station, reenactment, book and interview on Dr. Phil. His actions speaks to me as though he wants to keep GZ very close to him to make sure he doesn’t talk.

          I think about this way, what would I do if my friend was in the same predictament.

          I would support them from behind the scenes. Tell them sure you can crash in the guest room for a couple of days. But in no shape or from would I do more then that. I would never personally put my life and my family’s life in danger like they did. We all have good friends, but in reality most of us here would not do what they did.

          It seems a little bit out there for Mark to tell Dr. Phil he would take a bullet for him. For what?! You knew the guy for a couple of years. His wife and him worked at the same place. You guys went shooting once or twice a month. And you would do all this for someone you know less then 6 years. Does not pass the smell test. IMO.

          >>> If they are “the driver” they aren’t “the shooter,” by definition.

          Ah, I differ here. Just like if you are the getaway driver in a bank robbery, you are culpable also.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If GZ is hiding anyone’s involvement, it’s because their discovery would point to murder 1. GZ doesn’t want to risk a death penalty case. Meanwhile anyone with him, would realize that they’re skirting very close to a death penalty charge themselves, if they can’t count on the police to wipe it for them. They all know that things can go wrong, even in spite of having the top dogs in their pocket or on their side. For example, isn’t that exactly what happened? The top dogs, in Sanford, lost control of the case.

          One of the big troubles I’m having is, if there was not supposed to be a killing, why is everyone sort of at their stations so to speak? Shouldn’t the “unexpected” killing have been a deal breaker? Sending everyone scattering in their own directions? Instead it’s pulling these people together to circle the wagons. Why would you stand, circle the wagons and fight, when you can easily out run your foe?

          The top dogs should have said they didn’t sign on for murder and let the chips fall where they may. Instead they came to the killers aid and risked appearing as co conspirators. Which is yet another reason why GZ can’t get a plea deal, the State doesn’t know what the Feds are going to do, and the Feds aren’t going to tell.

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>If GZ is hiding anyone’s involvement, it’s because their discovery would point to murder 1.

            Yep. It’s like if you tell on me I will tell on you. If there is someone else involved, and he (gz) does tell on that person, that person is going to run like a bat out of hell to the state to cut a deal, and they will get the deal it if they rat on him. JMO

            >>>>One of the big troubles I’m having is, if there was not supposed to be a killing, why is everyone sort of at their stations so to speak? Shouldn’t the “unexpected” killing have been a deal breaker? Sending everyone scattering in their own directions? Instead it’s pulling these people together to circle the wagons. Why would you stand, circle the wagons and fight, when you can easily out run your foe?

            Look at Wofingers prosecuton record, it speaks for itself. His office charged whites less then blacks. He went harder on sentencing blacks then whites. This is “normal” for that county. Circling of the wagons is what they do. They have not changed their MO sorta speak.


            We as the public blow up their spot! The Martin/Fulton family challenged the “good ole boy” system. Kevin Cunningham started the petition. It snowballed from there into what we now have.

            Sandford Florida thought, hmmm we always do this what is so different now. We answered them and said, ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

            We want Justice for Trayvon Martin.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, well… When a citizen breaks the law, the LEO’s say; “You should have thought about that before you did it”. So now, we have the Sanford LEO’s breaking the law, and there’s this doubt about whether or not they’ll be charged with the crimes they committed. Plenty serious business when, we consider that their idea of law breaking, was to deprive the public of the protection of law. Because that’s exactly what selective enforcement does, it deprives the public of the protection of law.

            So, we’re either into this new paradigm or we aren’t. If we aren’t, then we’re headed back to the 1800’s. A black President should be breathing fire and hurling brimstone at that!

          • blushedbrown says:


            It strains the brain of the behavior and attitude of the Sandford Police Dept. and their former Chief.

            I truly praise the family for not taking it lying down. And Kevin Cunningham who started the petition.

            We have been on our quest together for Justice for Trayvon, and unlike gz supporters we are in for the long haul.

          • Lonnie said,

            “One of the big troubles I’m having is, if there was not supposed to be a killing, why is everyone sort of at their stations so to speak? Shouldn’t the “unexpected” killing have been a deal breaker? Sending everyone scattering in their own directions? Instead it’s pulling these people together to circle the wagons. Why would you stand, circle the wagons and fight, when you can easily out run your foe?”

            When corruption of the legal system (i.e., including police, prosecution, judges and defense) is racially motivated, institutional and multi-generational as it often is in the South, the players become lazy and stupid never fearing the walls of their kingdom will be breached.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, it’s like these little fiefdoms aren’t even a part of the US of A. I’d been reading, a while ago, how police from the top US cities, go to places like Florida when they get drummed off the force for major infractions. They go to places like Sanford from cities like Chicago, Philly, NYC, Houston, LA, Seattle and even Detroit. They get put out to pasture for things like racism, insubordination, alcohol abuse, spousal abuse and anything else that lands them short of being imprisoned themselves. So the hundreds of small towns in the south give these failures new life. If ever this country needed anything, it’s a national LEO registry.

  30. Xena says:

    I’ve embedded this before but think with the discussion of the area and crime scene, that it’s a good time to embed it again.

    At about .59 of the video to 1:20, Taaffe tells Dave that the FBI told him where Trayvon entered. Well, for Taaffe to not have been there, he is very opinionated IMO, in addition to expressing opinions of thinking for Trayvon. Nevertheless, I thought that Taaffe saying what the FBI told him is of interest.

    Next, at about 6:07 of the video, Taaffe says something that may be a Freudian slip; i.e., he points out the location where GZ “made his first call.” How many calls did GZ make? Ummm. Dave shows us the inside of the clubhouse and where the video cameras are located. Taaffe also acknowledges that Trayvon was in the mail shed and we see it’s location.

    At about 6:58 – 8:40 of the video is also of interest, and again at 11:43 when Dave asks about whether GZ looked down RVC to see if he saw Trayvon heading for the backgate.

    What I find very interesting is at 14:37 of the video when Dave aims his camera at an area between the townhouses south of where Trayvon was killed.

    • seallison says:

      Oh yeah, there is much more happening behind the scenes of this case than we know.

      • Xena says:

        Absolutely, and more than O’Mara and West know too, which is why they unsuccessfully attempted to get the State to give them what the feds have. I loved it when BDLR said that the federal investigation is still ongoing. I can only imagine that GZ’s stomach turned when hearing that.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I’ll bet he’s not making any of his damn hoodie jokes now. the FAT SLOB is going to get his one way or another. he’s going down and who ever else was involved in this will as well. I believe that at some point he called Timothy Smith’s cell# and, that call was probably made after he hung up with NEN dispatch.

        • racerrodig says:

          Back in June or so when the evidence began to mount and he was on his interview I regret nothing tour, I suggested that we all send him cases and cases of Skittles, Iced Tea and tons of gray hoodies for those long cold nights in prison.

          He’ll never forget after that delivery.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      At timestamp 8:53, Taaffe says, “They pulled down those burglary alerts…..they were on the mailboxes”

      What is he referring to?

      • Xena says:


        What is he referring to?

        I have no idea.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I just saw the copy of it at the end of Dave’s video…..it had to do with the TV that was stolen in November 2012 that Taaffe alluded to.

        • racerrodig says:

          Allegedly stolen….there is no confirmation of any stole TV on that date. Remember Taaffe said it was a 56 inch TV and 3 minutes later said 60 inch TV and they were just walking down the street with it. Right…….

      • sdunn5 says:

        I just typed up my own burglary report where I write they walked out with My 60″ T.V. But my husband told me we didn’t have one!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        LOL, sdunn

      • sdunn5 says:

        January 29, 2013 at 12:21 am

        I just typed up my own burglary report where I write they walked out with My 60″ T.V. But my husband told me we didn’t have one!!

        LOLOL that shit happens all the time with me darling!
        just yesterday i asked the door dude why he let that man drive off in my ice blue metallic 2door Bentley coupe!!! (with the sheepskin carpets) but he assured me he’s just having it washed! 🙂

      • leander22 says:

        I have to switch to expat shield to be able to watch it again. But Xena, I discovered too that the clubhouse surfaced quite bit in his calls. What about other calls? they may have taken a look at that. Just as the back entrance surfaced before by the way. I switch now. 😉

      • Malisha says:

        I think someone put up the flyers that Fogen had been handing out that said to look out for young Bpa-lack males who were burglarizing the houses. I think somebody had put them into the mail-shed so everyone coming to pick up their mail would see that they should watch out for and be suspicious of young Bpa-lack mailes. Ibrahim Rashada said something like that about the flyers Fogen was printing up and handing out.

    • whonoze says:

      Is there something specific about the space between the buildings that catches your eye Xena, or just the fact that Dave chooses to take a shot there?

      Poor Frank. He doesn’t know what end is up. He says GZ said Trayvon circled the truck at the clubhouse, but GZ actually said TM circled him on TTL near the cut-through. His response to Dave at 14;37 is pretty telling as he finally utters the phrase that should describe everything he talks about, “I don’t know.”

      • Xena says:


        Is there something specific about the space between the buildings that catches your eye Xena, or just the fact that Dave chooses to take a shot there?

        Something specific. Forgive me for not being a north, south, east, west type of person. So, I’m going to try to explain this as best I can based on what Dave shows. That area between the townhouses would be accessible from the front of the buildings — TTL, right?

        Now, I admit to having drawn the conclusion that GZ heard Trayvon talking on his phone, and that gave away Trayvon’s location. I don’t think that GZ was on RVC when hearing Trayvon. Rather, IMO, GZ turned around and while walking back and reaching the T, heard Trayvon. GZ could then go to TTL and use that area that Dave focuses his camera on and reach where Trayvon was, just south of where Trayvon was killed.

        That also supports the south to north movement.

        Poor Frank. He doesn’t know what end is up.

        Haha! I would like to see Taaffe, Papa Zim, and Osterman in the same room discussing what GZ told them. An argument would break-out within the first 5 minutes because GZ told them all something different, but they are the experts on what he said.

        • racerrodig says:

          Everyone of them and add Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver speak in 1st person format….as if they were there. Never do you hear FogenPhoole said…….It’s he then went…..Trayvon walked…….Fogen did this……

          • Xena says:

            Oooh. I forgot about Joe Oliver. Yeah. That means the argument would start in less than 2 minutes.

          • racerrodig says:

            Someone here has to have some connection to get me an interviewers job. I’ll get every one of them rolling over and cussing.
            Nancy Grace would stand in awe of what I can do. I hate to say this but I have a client I’m doing a CFA auto report and have to testify for. This is the truth….They were given my report, all factual and very scathing, early last, week. The defendant passed away on the 24th from a heart attack. A healthy 66 year old shop owner. Now I can’t say it was what was in my report and I’m sorry to see anyone pass away, but his lawyer was in the process of trying to get me removed as an expert witness and he failed. I can smell BS and fraud a mile away. I spent the time putting the fraud together and I can only imagine they were stunned I figured it out.

            Of course a $44,102.50 short block replacement on a $5,000.00 BMW is a bit unconscionable. No written Estimate, No signed Authorization and all for a small oil leak. Double & triple billed everything. All Bad news….

            When I testify in court, I set the lawyers up. It’s child’s play for the most part. I’m shocked at how unprepared most of these lawyers are, This guy has no idea that CFA voids the payment and our client gets every penny back and trebled along with all fees and costs.

            So I’d love to do an interview with the gloves off. Bring em all on…Oliver, Osterman, SheLie, Taaffe…..all of them.

            You think Oliver and Taaffe went ballistic before, wait till I handle RZ jr.

          • Xena says:


            Someone here has to have some connection to get me an interviewers job. I’ll get every one of them rolling over and cussing.

            Well, if you don’t want to be compensated, it’s real simple. Go over to CNN Ireports and sign-up for an account. Then contact each individual and tell them you want to interview for CNN Ireports. Record it, and upload it to Ireports. CNN might just feature it on their network.

          • racerrodig says:

            That might be worth a try, Thanks !!

    • racerrodig says:

      Memo to Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe……you’re a lousy tour guide, don’t give up your day job…..full time drunk.

      P.S. Have you had that “short term vision” addressed….sure doesn’t look that way.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Starting at timestamp 16:03, Taaffe says that they have to go because a lady wants them to or something. Did you pick up what the two said?

      Dave: “Yeah, but, you live here.”

      Taaffe: “I know, but she’s being a little bitch.”

      Oh, that Taaffe!

      • racerrodig says:

        And he has a way with words…..considering he still has that “Short Term Vision” Have another drink Frank…

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, you are a hoot for real. LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          And he was scratching his ass for 15 seconds. That’s kind of like the scene in the movie “The Hollywood Knights” when one of them is playing the violin and it looks like he’s holding the bow with his pee pee and the old man jumps up and yells in a German accent
          “…look, he’s playing it vis his dick….”

          Sorry, it’s Frank “The Racist Tank Taaffe” and I hope he reads everything we say !! because he deserves it !!

    • racerrodig says:

      Several things here.

      1) I scaled and measured the 2 routes and they are almost identical. Frank…wrong again

      2) At 15:15 he goes on in his “This is a fact, because I said so” garbage about and I quote “…who his drug dealer was…” and his “blunt” crap….wrong again Frank, have another drink..

      3) At about 9:00 to 9:15 he puts his left hand into his left back pocket and scratches his ass !! Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, it just shows what this guy is.

      4) He makes a lot of assumptions and makes them ‘fact”

      5) He contradicts where Trayvon allegedly came in with FogenPhoole’s account Hmmmmmmm

      6) At 12:22 he says it all “I don’t know” (Mr. Spicolli….I don’t know)

      7) At 14:00 he has that “…shit, I’m so cool chewing on this here green thang…”

    • racerrodig says:

      Notice Frank is scratching his ass !! On camera…..what a Phoole !! He does it from 9:00 to 9:15.

      • Xena says:


        Notice Frank is scratching his ass !!

        You mean that pancake below his waist in the back?

        • racerrodig says:

          Not to be to graphic but my wife says I have no butt….Taaffe, well that pancake analogy is pretty accurate, but I just couldn’t help roaring when he starts scratching his pancake ass. What a class act !!! I was hoping he’d grab his crotch and start a workout there since that appears to be his speed.

          Maybe he’ll turn up as one of those “Wal-Martians” !!

          Does he have any clue how he humiliates himself and by default the entire Zidiot Nation every time he opens his mouth. Then he calls the lady near the end a bitch…on camera !!

          • Xena says:

            LOL@raccerrodig. Taaffe is one of those take it or leave it guys — take him with all his arrogance and lack of manners — or leave him at the bar. LOL!

          • racerrodig says:

            Leave him at the bar with his short term vision, and a bottle of JD, or Ripple.

    • Tzar says:

      My goodness, Taffee is not very sharp, he is controverting the account of his friend, the killer

      • Tzar says:

        lol, contradicting not controverting

      • racerrodig says:

        He’s not relegated to being FrankenPhoole.

      • Xena says:


        My goodness, Taffee is not very sharp, he is controverting the account of his friend, the killer

        Yep. I can’t help but wonder what Taaffe and GZ did with common sense. Common sense says that if GZ saw Trayvon enter the community by Taaffe’s house, but then he went to the mail shed, and it was raining, that he could not have been looking into houses and was sheltering from the rain.

    • Jun says:

      I kind of feel its good he’s a drunken douchebag

      Honestly, it is because of Frank’s loose lips that people started tying the knots on the “racism” theory as Frank points out before the arrest

      (1) Massive rash of break ins by black thugs (which turns out to just be lies and propaganda, much like what Hitler made up about Jews to cause hate crimes against Jews)

      (2) Because of the “made up rash of break ins by black thugs”, it was the reason Fogenhats targeted and stalked Trayvon

      (3) Trayvon should have answered Fogenhats properly, otherwise none of what transpired would have transpired like it did

      Those three media “facts” that he puts out completely contradicts and adds more feces to Fogenhats’ claims LOL

      Mark Ostertrench did not help much either LOL

      I am starting to think that Frank or Ostertrench dont really like Fogenhats either LOL

      The most ridiculous part is Fogenhats own NEN phone call, where he excitedly uttered, that he was by the clubhouse when he was stalking Trayvon, kind of puts both their stories to rest

      Please God, no video from Junior of his lies, Lord have mercy

      • Xena says:

        Hey Jun, add another to your list for Taaffe. In the video, he also thinks for young Black males who are afraid (as though teens of other races who are stalked think differently).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        As to your #1 and #2 points…….Witness 18 said that ONLY because of what gz DID is SHE scared to live there anymore:

        This is like a nice neighborhood
        It isn’t like, you know….. Oh my God. I don’t want… I’m too scared to live here.

        Witness 18’s 911 call

      • Those three media “facts” that he puts out completely contradicts and adds more feces to Fogenhats’ claims LOL


        LMAO!!!! yep more feces in fogen than can ever be believed! and all his little-men friends are full of feces too!!

      • racerrodig says:

        I’ll confess, I took the 56″, er 60″ TV.

    • leander22 says:

      I have no idea what I had in mindI , when I wrote the statement below, I thought you mentioned the clubhouse. The expat shield slowed down my browser considerably. Wasn’t easy to watch.

      What this video tells me, is, that is may not be so easy to orient since all the houses look the same. And if I am visiting somewhere I tend to use the same direction too for that reason. After having experienced walking in circles or into the opposite direction trying to rely on my abilities to take a shortcut.

      Concerning Taaffe. Didn’t he in an earlier statement (some media/TV report) have Trayvon circle GZ’s car close to the cut-through?

      I read his reference to the FBI as trying to impress some type of “superior knowledge” on Dave. After all how does the FBI know where Trayvon entered. They obviously rely on GZ’s statements too. And since Taaffe already knew GZ’s claims he discovered Trayvon close to his house, why would the FBI suddenly matter?

      The first call though is a perfect discovery.

      Admittedly I don’t know if GZ didn’t try to impress Taaffe by claiming to have prevented a burglary at his house, to start with. It seems the main source for his often mentioned successful work. Burgess must know if he met GZ’s glance staring at him and then running away, but if he lived there, why not back home but away from it? Has anyone ever seen Burgess with pajama pants, whatever that is supposed to mean, as GZ describes the suspect at Taaffe’s house where Fogen indeed called back?

      • sdunn5 says:

        Lest we forget the bizarre 911 call he made about the black guy in the “Bomber Hat”!!! The dispatcher was like…huh…?????

  31. Two sides to a story says:

    Thanks for the nod, Prof. L. I hoped after I pressed ‘post comment’ that I didn’t sound too peevish and grumpy!

  32. SRA says:

    I hear “coons” as well.. Why is everyone pussyfooting around it?

    • racerrodig says:

      Thank you ….I hate hearing and even typing it but he said it….the racist bastard.

    • Rachael says:

      I hear coons. Loud and clear.

      • Rachael says:

        If I had to transcribe that for work, I wouldn’t even question it, it is so clear.

      • gblock says:

        Like the rest of you, I definitely hear it as coons, but I’m not sure that whether it’s “coons” or “punks” will make much difference to the case.

    • towerflower says:

      I thought it was the c word also, but then after hearing Serino talking about the local gang, the “goons”, I wondered if it was goons.

      • Malisha says:

        It was not “goons.”

        1. Had it been “goons,” Fogen would have said something to Sean about the gang that he believed this suspect was in.

        2. Had it been “goons,” Fogen would not have gone with “punks” when interviewed by Serino. He would have said “Goons” and explained that he had seen someone who looked like Trayvon with the gang called “Goons” and believed the suspect was in that gang.

        3. Had it been “goons,” we would have heard from the Outhouse that the gang called “Goons” was terrorizing the RTL and killing nuns and Trayvon Martin was one of their chief nunkillers.

  33. Mike says:

    In the beginning I thaught he said coons too, but only after the expert said that the word was punks did I reconsider that. I think if I’m to believe the expert in saying that it wasn’t forgens voice yelling help I surly could believe that he said punks VS coons. And to add to that the expert said this months befor forgens statements where available to the public.

    • racerrodig says:

      Turn up the volume and listen. Your own ears are the best expert.
      He says “coons” the racist bastard.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I agree on “coons,” not “goons” and certainly not “punks.” I’m inclined to think Corey’s office isn’t pushing this point … A) in the interest of streamlining and keeping focus on undisputable points and B) because it feels confident any reasonable juror with ears and a nose will hear the comment and smell it for what it is … a racial slur, pure and simple.

        I think this fits with the professor’s keep it simple and to the point position for courtroom action. But no matter what happens at trial, Tsar, we can make sure the liar’s language gets brought up over and over.

      • seallison says:

        racer – I am with you – clearly coons.

        • racerrodig says:

          For a fact this call will be played and I hope the tech who is in charge “accidentally” leans over and his tie drags the volume control to full tilt boogie.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I *DEFINITELY* heard him say the words F’ing Coons and, like I tell my son as well as my nieces and nephews, I might not be able to see very good but, my hearing is excellent! the FBI knows what he said.

      • kindheart101 says:

        Here I am, again, unable to sleep, so I’m reading all of the posts.

        Lady……I agree with you 100%. I heard the recording for the first time, with a friend. I turned in shock and said: “Did you hear that?” He said: “OMG!” I said: “He said F’ing Coons!”

        We replayed it over and over…….no one could ever convince me he said anything else.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Kindheart, OH YEA, that is exactly what he said and, there is no need for any special equipment to hear what he said. he said, F’ing Coons just as sure as his ass is *FAT* and, he knows it as well as the SPD and the FBI knows it. I don’t know but, maybe they are saving this for a hate crime charge against him, I sure hope so.

        just to think that he almost got away with killing an *INNOCENT* unarmed child, is so hard to wrap my mind around this entire case. it was only Trayvon’s skin color that led these CRIMINALS* in the SPD and that two bit Wolfinger the S*B, to let this POS walk out of that station a free *IDIOT.* I proudly signed that petition and, if I had it to do over again, I would. this kind of thinking in this country has got to stop and, if those who hate other races just because of the color of their skin, then they should be the ones to leave the country and settle in a place of their own. also, RZ Jr thought he was going to get other Hispanics on his side but, La Raza showed him. after all, he is racist against Mexicans the same way he is against African Americans. this Thugboat is deserving of whatever he’s got coming his way so, let the chips fall where ever they may.

    • What expert said he said punks? b/c i saw on TV an expert (two actually) sit there and analyse it and they said it was coons.

      maybe there’s different experts out there w. opposing opinions, but i know what i hear. and after knowing this POS is perfectly at ease telling the dispatch guy how *assholes* get away, and making it very clear that this particular asshole ( like all the other ones) has his hand in his waist and he’s black for emphasis, i don’t think punks are what he’s concerned about in the neighborhood–you know, with all the young black males doing all the robberies…so, why wouldn’t he call it like he sees it??

      • sdunn5 says:

        Hi shannoninmiami I spent hours on your page yesterday. Thank you thank you for introducing me to SanfordWatch. I am usually discouraged on YouTube due to all the maniac’s i.e. pokerfacedtodd etc. Very powerful vids by SanfordWatch. Is Vinnie Politan doing anything now. I love him.

        • yeah, did you listen to the jail calls? i just finished those 6 up yesterday and lemme tell you!!

          GZ is so fake & so is shellie! they act like they are so sweet, to the point of naseum!! like they don’t cuss, and so grateful for all the good thoughts,, but the whole time all he’s worried about is how much people need to DO THINGS FOR HIM!! they owe him! they need to get the word out to send MORE money and what a great couple they are even more so now that he killed someone.,, he gets irritated that shellie doesn’t watch the news about HIM and report back to him!! it’s just so obvious how devious he and her both are and greedy!!! and THEY WERE DEFFINATLY planning to jump bail once they had enough sponsors!!!

          this is where you really see who they are, even though they know the recordings will be heard. but they think people are stupid enough to fall for the act they play. i’m gonna find the other calls and post them too,

          • TommysMom says:

            I also thought it funny that G whispered,to what purpose? The instructions to S showed me G didn’t think she was quite bright,which being married to him shows me he’s right about that.

          • because he wants the guards in the jail and everyone to think he’s one of them.. i mean he’s sitting there bragging about all the special shit he gets from them and imaginary favors he thinks he’s getting.. it’s like he thinks he’s a celeberty and the JAIL is just working for him to keep HIM SAFE!!
            so stupid. and shellie too.. she’s no sucker either, she knows exactly what she was doing hiding the money! she and gz are BOTH SCAMMERS and GRIFTERS!! that’s why they are together. they both leech off who ever they can and will do it until they are stopped!!
            i hope to god she gets real jail time because she is just as filthy a liar and killerlover as hateful and nasty as gz and his family!!!

          • blushedbrown says:

            had the same thought

          • Xena says:

            @Shannon. Like Judge Lester said, (my paraphrase) if not but for the GPS ankle bracelet, GZ would have fled with $135,000 of other people’s money.

            When he fessed up about the Paypal account, it was only because of the ankle bracelet.

      • sdunn5 says:

        shannon Dave Knechel has all 116 phone calls on his bog. If you can stomach listening to them. I pick out various ones as I plug my nose to get ready for their nasty exchanges. Can you imagine this toad making 116 calls in less then 10 days????????????? Long irritating monotonous inane coded conversations setting up their flight plan! They all deserve to rot in hell.

        • OMG 116 calls???? my god! how annoying!!!!!!!! it took me 2 weeks with those 6 calls plugged in my earphones while grocery shopping, taking
          the boy child back and forth to school..etc. i’ll never hear them all!!

          • sdunn5 says:

            No need to cause yourself the nausea. It’s just more from SZ “Ooh you are so good cootie”!

      • looneydoone says:

        Know what else is infuriating about 116 calls in those few days ?
        That he was allowed so much time out of his cell ( err “room”) at Sanford Jail to chatter for hours…or was SPD kind enough to bring him an extension phone set so he could lounge around on his bed chatting ? WTF ?? Was he also taking meals in the employee’s lounge and playing Domino’s with his cop buddies ??

        • But of course! he had the guard handing him the phone with a long cord so he could stay cozy and warm under his blanket lying in his bed.
          and then bitched because there was *one* other prisoner who *might* need it for a minute!
          then, he was also allowed to wear his OWN clothes!

      • sdunn5 says:

        looneydoone they gave him a phone on a long extension cord (he states in one of the calls) to hang himself with!!!

    • roderick2012 says:

      When Rent-A-Black-Friend Joe Oliver went on tv to state that it was ‘goons’ because his son uses the term it was confirmed that George said ‘coons’, but it’s best for the State not to bring race into this case any more than the defense will beause it will be a distraction and I fear that the defense will use Serino and DeeDee to distracts from the basic facts that George basically admits to having murdered Trayvon.

  34. racerrodig says:

    Lets shift gears here a bit and go back to when Uhrig & Sonner held that Press Conference to announce they dumped on poor old FogenPhoole…………….With me ??

    They stated they lost contact with him but he was calling Angela Corey’s office repeatedly. OK, I’ll start this with the options..

    10) The obvious…..what’s cooking, you really don’t have anything,
    do you ?
    9) He wanted to ask how good Sooner and Uhrig are.
    8) He wanted to get his CCW permit back…..to update it.
    7) He wanted to get a copy of the Stand Your Ground Law
    6) He wanted to pay that unpaid parking ticket from 2007 before
    the interest got to high
    5) He wanted to ask what field of Law Enforcement he should
    apply for as soon as he got that coveted “Criminal Justice
    4) He wanted his red & ba-lack jacket back….the rainy season
    you know.
    3) He wanted to let her know he had the back rent money so if
    any eviction notices went across her desk, well I’ve got it
    2) He wanted to know what prayers she and the Martin family
    prayed when she met with them.
    1) He just wanted to say how good she looked in that red dress
    when she announced his arrest.

  35. whonoze says:


    Especially given the stated purpose of this blog, I completely agree it’s important to distinguish evidence and argument that would aid the prosecution from speculation that merely attempts to figure out what the heck actually happened. I think both are valid activities, and both have a place here, but while they have some overlap, they are different matters at heart, and that difference should be observed in the commentary.

    For example, I agree with those who have suggested that any conjecture about what happened in the ‘missing two minutes’ would not be wise for the prosecution to introduce in their case-in-chief. However, depending on how the defense presents the self-defense claim, they might become relevant in rebuttal. Team Z has long maintained that since Trayvon had enough time to get home after Zimmerman lost sight of him, the ONLY explanation for the time that lapsed, and the Northern location of the struggle, is that Martin ‘doubled-back’ with the intent of attacking Zimmerman. I think we have multiple plausible explanations of alternative scenarios, enough to put the lie to that ‘ONLY.’ So if (and only if) the defense were to use that ‘he had to have doubled-back’ argument, the alternative scenarios would become relevant at trial.

    As for Two Sides comment: I too often feel a signal-to-noise pain. But I suspect that most of the posts here are made in good conscience, and we do not have any kind of consensus on what constitutes signal and what constitutes noise.

    I, for one, think that all the speculations about a conspiracy-before-the-fact are utterly unsupported by evidence and a waste of time, while, on the other hand, there is a strong case to be made for a conspiracy-after-the-fact by various LEO to cover GZ’s butt, as well as their own butts for letting him off. I’d like to see that get more attention, here and elsewhere. No, it’s not necessarily relevant to the trial of George Zimmerman. But I don’t think anything like ‘justice’ will have been done in this case until the actions of Smith, Ayala, Wagner, Lee and Wolfinger (and possibly others) have been thoroughly investigated, and at least some members of this krewe have been brought to trial.

    • roderick2012 says:

      whonoze: But I don’t think anything like ‘justice’ will have been done in this case until the actions of Smith, Ayala, Wagner, Lee and Wolfinger (and possibly others) have been thoroughly investigated, and at least some members of this krewe have been brought to trial.

      The only way that will occur is if the DOJ investigates them. Maybe we should get together with change.org and start a petition and present it to AG Holder to investigate all of those whom you mentioned because I doubt the state of FL wants any more negative press at the moment.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I agree with you Roderick, justice for Trayvon will not be complete until those who tried to sweep this murder under the rug in the process of helping Fogen get away with murder, are also brought to justice and convicted for their misdeeds.

        Wolfinger called himself resigning his position I guess thinking he would be in the clear but, HE’S NOT! it’s a sad state of affairs, when officers of the justice system cannot be trusted.

    • seallison says:

      Am I understanding you correctly, Whonoze.

      You do not mind discussing a cover-up occurring after-the-fact.

      You do not mind discussing theories about how the 2 minutes went down.

      But, you do not want discussion about what may have led up to the killing having taken place: i.e. that there may have been others involved.

      ALL of the above theories are the result of discovery evidence made public. Most of what is discussed on this blog will never see the light of day during the trial itself. A jury will come up with its own theory based upon the presentations by the defendant and the prosecution.

      There is not doubt there is more to this story than we know right now and more evidence we would need to ascertain whose theory was the more accurate.

      In the meantime, while the excellent video presented yesterday was based on a THEORY, and while the bare bone evidence was there, the video is speculation. I respect the theory and appreciate the speculation, there is much I disagree with only because my theory requires a few more pieces to complete the picture. For example:

      Phone records,
      Where the vehicles were found to be parked.

      In the meantime, while the video took alot of research and alot of skill, collaboration, and compilation, it is little more than a theory.

      To place others at the scene is no better or worse than the theory of others given what is known.

      In short your suffering SIGNAL – NOISE pain by reading what you may consider a waste of time is your problem. Perhaps everyone should simply sit back and accept your theory as what – fact. I don’t think so.

      To have the ability to discuss various aspects of this case is what makes this blog what it is – signal to noise pain or a waste of time to you.

      • whonoze says:

        No, you’re not understanding me correctly. It is not that I do not want discussion about conjecture that others may have been involved before the fact. I am not interested in it, and I do not consider it productive. However, I am no position other to express my personal opinion. Even if I did not want something, what I want would be irrelevant on an open discussion forum. If you look at my post, I was giving that as an example of the kind of thing _I_ may find to be noise, in the context of the larger point that we all disagree about what is signal and what is noise, and therefore none of us have any business projecting our own concept of noise onto the entire blog.

        And the video is strict about labeling what is conjecture and what is not. That IS Zimmerman’s truck. It does not park at the clubhouse. It pauses by the mailboxes. Then it parks on TTL facing the clubhouse. The 911 calls are synched to the second on the time clock. Those are facts. If your theory doesn’t fit those facts, your theory sucks. If you have another theory about the missing two minutes come back and talk to me once you’ve taken the time to plot it out on a map using a clock in order to establish it’s plausibility.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        The video shows that GZ couldn’t have seen Trayvon near Taaffe’s. The mail area is blocked from view on RVC. That implies another person was involved. GZ must have been tipped. I’ve considered Taaffe and Osterman, but for a number of reasons I don’t think they are likely candidates. The most likely scenario in my mind is that the driver of one of the six cars that passed the mail area between Trayvon’s arrival at the mailboxes and GZ showing up, contacted good old George the nw guy. If that is the case, the prosecution probably knows that person through GZ’s phonerecords.

        I don’t think there was another person in GZ’s car, because Trayvon gives a pretty good description to Dee Dee. ” A white dude in a car talking on the phone”.

        I don’t think there was another person at the scene because none of the eyewitnesses saw a 3rd person.

        It is possible GZ was patrolling in his car and a second person was also driving around in his/her car, maybe coordinating with

      • racerrodig says:

        Well said and I personally have no problem reading everything anyone here says. To be honest this is the 3rd or 4th time someone has had to say this to whonoze. Nothing personal whonoze, but ……….

        Stop telling us what to do.

      • Tzar says:

        @ amsterdam
        there is an awful lot of car door activity in the first minute or so of that NEN call. One just need listen carefully.

      • seallison says:

        whonoze – whilst you may believe the vehicle to be GZs based on timing this may not be the case. There is no proof it is a Ridgeline, no proof that GZ was in control of the vehicle. To state your opinion as proof is misleading.

        You are basing your opinion upon GZs story. Yet, I could just as easily say GZ was in a different vehicle coming from and parking at the opposite end of TTL or RVC. I could just as easily say he was picked up from home by someone else.

        My opinion is just as valid as yours – using those same cameras and same timing.

        You will not sway an opinion based upon any evidence that is not there. No one knows how it really went down on this blog or any other for that matter at this point.

      • seallison says:

        I absolutely disagree that Trayvon hid when he did not even know GZ was out of the vehicle. Makes no sense.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        That was not the process of how the analysis was done.
        Tchoupi started the process by first documenting all the light events of 4 of the video’s. He put together the maps with the view angles of the cameras. Next part of the process was to recognize the sequence of lights as seen in the different videos.
        So a car entering the front gate is first seen through the little window in the gameroom. If that car turns right you will see it pas by the big window in the gameroom and then the window in the kitchen video.

        A car driving from the front gate to TTL would be little window gameroom, a fuzzy image passing the eph, the headlights then light up the ep video and when the car passes the bend and the car starts driving east on TTL the red rearlights can be seen in the ep video.

        So we had clear patterns.

        Next we established the time. We used the logs, policereports and radiotransmitions to establish when Smith, Ayala and Raimondo arrived, and what path they took after they entered the front gate.
        Smith’s car was easy to recognize because the emergency light on the roof of his car can be seen in the eph. We also know that Smith went down TTL before he continued to RVC. Ayala and Raimondo took a left turn on RVC. When we got the right time, witness statements to 911 lined up with what we could see in the videos. W3, who was in an upstairs bedroom facing TTL, said she could see the police when Smith’s car got into her line of vision. W18 reporting the arrival of Raimondo when she should be able to see him. W18 reporting she can hear the sirens when the emergency vehicles are near the front gate, and her reporting they are at the front of her house now, when they were passing the front of her house on RVC.

        We worked on that time for weeks. If you change the time only 20 sec, at least some of these datapoints were out of synch.

        We never looked or speculated about GZ’s where abouts until we were sure we had the time nailed within 5 sec tops.

        When we looked at the videos around the time of the nen call, only one car was driving on TTL. The pattern of the lights of that car was different from all the other cars driving on TTL. It passed by the eph, and the headlights lit up the ep video, but unlike other cars no rearlights can be seen. Those rearlights are seen 30 sec later. Logical conclusion is that that car stopped in front of the mail area.
        Seconds after the rearlights are out of sight, headlights from an approaching car driving east west towards the ep show up. The pattern with other cars is that the moment the car turns right on TTL, the headlights disappear from the ep video and a car can be seen passing the eph video. In this case the lights disappear from the ep video as if the car made the right turn on TTL, but no car passes the eph. Our conclusion was that car stopped near the bend.

        So just before the nen call, a car drives down on TTL and stops for 30 seconds in front of the mail area. That car then procedes driving east on TTL when the nen call begins. À car can be seen driving back west on TTL and stops at the bend facing the mail area. That car never passes the mail area. No other car can be seen driving on TTL until after GZ ends his nen call. Is this absolute proof that this was GZ? I guess there are no absolutes, but since GZ admitted he was on TTL during that time, I think it is pretty solid evidence.

        There are things on Whonoze’s video I don’t agree with, but I am fully behind the time the videos were taken and the movements of the car on TTL around the time of the nen call.

        I’ve been forced to change my mind about the events many times, and I try to keep an open mind for other theories. I don’t think it is à fair to say, without providing a similar kind of analysis, that your theory is as valid as the one presented in this video.

        • seallison says:

          I can only imagine the work involved in the video. However, there is too much that is unknown at this point.

          Like I said, I agree with some of the video based on evidence. However, you are unable to prove that the vehicle is actually GZ. You are unable to prove he was alone in the vehicle, if it was his vehicle.

          Timing may have led you to certain conclusions. But, some of your conclusions, though compelling, are not provable given what is known to the public thus far.

      • leander22 says:

        I once read a passage in a book by a German theater historian that fascinated me. Literature fallen into live. Since literature is created by humans it does mirror reality and occasionally may fit reality perfectly.

        I also once encountered a statement about Edgar Allan Poe having read in Paris a short note about a crime back in the States that inspired him for a novel or short story. It was suggested that this story ultimately mirrored the real crime that had happened perfectly. I never found out if it was only a rumor. Unfortunately our time is limited.

        Ultimately our minds can freely wander in the context of the given data but if we do not consider ourself divinely inspired, we have to accept that we may be wrong or that something inside is drives us into a specific direction based on our own experience. I think what Whonoze and Amsterdam suggest here is some kind of KISS rule adoption for the scenario. To try to leave out matters that have left no trace or much too vague traces in the evidence we have so far.

        I have to admit that to the extend I understand Whonoze and Amsterdam’s concerns I am firmly on their side. But ultimately I have not looked much into the theories that basically introduce something like car doors sounds and argue that GZ wasn’t alone. It is not so easy to attribute something specific to whatever sound we perceive, even more if we are not completely familiar with it. I do hear coons, and someone once convinced me concerning seat belts or something similar by presenting the sound created with the same car type and then amplify and parallel the sounds on the tape, but I remain skeptic concerning other sounds to base a theory on. Our perception and our minds are deeply connected. We all occasionally see what we think. It is just my feeling that GZ is way beyond “normal” in this context.

        Yes, I have a strong aesthetic reaction against other people in the car. My feeling tells me, if that was the case, if someone else with him, this person would have been far too curious to see what exactly happened. Maybe would have gotten out before (door sounds) and have helped to corner TM.

        `* from Greek aisthētikos of sense perception, from aisthanesthai to perceive I used this term since obviously my perception is connected to my mind.

        Ultimately the most ideal scenario from my perspective would be to trace the exact movement of TM and GZ via their cell phones. Unfortunately it may be not possible.

        • Leander said,

          “I also once encountered a statement about Edgar Allan Poe having read in Paris a short note about a crime back in the States that inspired him for a novel or short story. It was suggested that this story ultimately mirrored the real crime that had happened perfectly. I never found out if it was only a rumor. Unfortunately our time is limited.”

          I suspect you may be thinking about this “coincidence” that I mentioned in my article about cannibalism at sea by survivors of a yachting disaster. See: Necessity is not a Defense to Murder and Cannibalism.

          “The name of the case is The Queen v. Dudley and Stephens, Queen’s Bench Division, 1884. 14 Q.B.D. 273.

          Wiki notes a circumstance possibly more creepy than the case itself, if such is possible.

          It [the case] became better known in 1974 when Arthur Koestler ran a competition in The Sunday Times, in which readers were invited to send in the most striking coincidence they knew of. The winning entry pointed out that in Edgar Allan Poe’s novel The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket, published in 1838, decades before the Mignonette sank, four men are cast adrift on their capsized ship and draw lots to decide which of them should be sacrificed as food for the other three. The loser was the sailor who had proposed the idea: the character’s name was Richard Parker.


          Note: Richard Parker was the name of the cannibalized victim after the Mignonette sank.

          In addition to the KISS rule, there is the closely related principle of Occam’s Razor. Wiki defines it as

          “a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.”

      • leander22 says:

        thanks that is interesting, Prof. I’ll save that as link for a little more time. I wish I could remember where I read it. in any case, and I do love Edgar Allan Poe, nevertheless it sounded a bit mystifying (hero worship) to me at the time. But that would be a perfect example of literature fallen into live. 😉

        Thanks again, I appreciate the hint.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        You are right, I can’t proof that the car on TTL at the time of the nen call was GZ’s car eventhough GZ himself has admitted he was there. I can’t proof that no Martians were involved either.
        However, what I can proof is that on feb 26, 2012, between 7:09 pm and 7:11 pm a car stopped in front of the mail area and about 50 sec after that car has driven east, a car driving west again stops in front of the mail area.

        • Xena says:

          @amsterdam1234. That’s the way I see it also. Most criminal cases are based on presenting circumstantial evidence and applying it to the known and/or admitted facts.

          The NEN call provides evidence that GZ called at about 7:09. Based on his call, he had observed Trayvon several minutes before dialing. In his re-enactment, he also admits to seeing Trayvon, slowly down, then passing him and pulling over to dial NEN.

          GZ also admits that, in keeping an eye on Trayvon, he drove to and on TTL. He admits to getting out of his vehicle there also.

          Not once does GZ say that any other vehicles were on, nor parked on TTL nor RVC as he was tailing Trayvon.

          Thus, as you and whonoze have shown, the most reasonably conclusion is that the vehicle and/or head and/or tail lights in the video was driven by GZ.

    • ” But I don’t think anything like ‘justice’ will have been done in this case until the actions of Smith, Ayala, Wagner, Lee and Wolfinger (and possibly others) have been thoroughly investigated, and at least some members of this krewe have been brought to trial.”


  36. racerrodig says:

    By the way, I must point out that this site and the conversation between some of us on HP, differs so greatly from every site that is Pro-FogenPhoole I have to laugh until my ribs hurt.

    Clearly they have an angry agenda and zero (0) sense of humor nor do they have the ability to converse in a civil manner. It almost looks at times as if it’s one person who trashes Trayvon, his parents, the Prosecution, Team Trayvon etc etc etc. and then adds another
    “I know what you mean…” comment and may go off on a “..the evidence all supports FogenPhoole. Kind of like when you see someone with a hands free cell phone device going from call to call and they make no sense, because you only hear one side.

    I read the comments here and the difference is astounding !! It is easy to see there is no agenda per se, but the honest, open discussion of facts and law under the guidance of an expert.

    Everyone here can express and learn and add some comedy despite the tragic nature of this event without the Outhouse mentality.

    Can’t thank you enough Professor for this forum and everyone who is here !!!!

  37. TommysMom says:

    I’m just curious about something. If you were the defense lawyer on this case,with all the evidence to date,would you apporach the state about a plea deal?
    Of course getting Z to considerate a deal would be a real challenge.

  38. racerrodig says:

    I haven’t let it get swept under the rug……Nooooo Sir….that’s what he said and that’s what I heard.

    • Tzar says:

      The state is proceeding without it
      The DOJ appears to be ignoring it too

      why is the plain truth being suffocated in this case?
      is this not what we are really after?
      We can’t have Trayvon back but we can still get the truth its day in the light.

      • racerrodig says:

        I believe at trial the prosecution will hammer at it……trust me.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Is it possible that they’re ignoring or downplaying the issue because racism and other forms of discrimination can be quite difficult to establish and prosecute? The feds need far more evidence than they have to charge Fogen and successfully prosecute. They won’t bother if they don’t have a strong case.

        Much easier to gather forensics and work with Fogen’s profiling Trayvon as a criminal, his admission of following him and the strong possibility that he either committed murder or manslaughter.

        • Two sides said,

          “Is it possible that they’re ignoring or downplaying the issue because racism and other forms of discrimination can be quite difficult to establish and prosecute? The feds need far more evidence than they have to charge Fogen and successfully prosecute. They won’t bother if they don’t have a strong case.”

          I believe you are right. The State has no reason to add another element to its burden of proof (i.e., racist motivation) when it can get a life sentence without having to prove that extra element. It’s an illustration of the KISS rule that I have previously discussed.

          That doesn’t necessarily mean it would be difficult for them to prove that. They just do not have any need to do it.

      • seallison says:

        The FBI has no obligation to provide evidence in this trial. We have no idea what they have or do not have. The Sunshine Laws do not apply. They are investigating a hate crime. Very different than the upcoming case against the defendant.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks, Prof. Now I understand the State’s reasoning better.By not pursuing the race facet, it also keeps the media hullaballoo and the Z family reaction about it toned down, I imagine.

        Just the hard facts, Jack.

  39. Tzar says:

    I have a burning question
    why are we all letting the killer’s “fucking coon” statement get swept under the rug. We all can hear and know what he said. why are we accepting this?

    • Xena says:

      For me, it’s because the prosecution provided on the charging affidavit that the defendant said “fucking punks.” The State’s position is that while the defendant was following the victim and saying those words, that it demonstrates the defendant’s motivation to pursue resulting in him committing murder with a depraved mind.

      The matter of whether GZ used a racial slur to support that he committed a racial hate crime is under federal jurisdiction. The feds said they were unable to determine the actual word due to conditions in which the word was spoken —- but their investigation is still ongoing.

    • whonoze says:

      First, I would assert that my phonetic breakdown of this utterance proves BRD that GZ did not say “punks.” I can’t say it establishes “coons” BRD, as “goons” is close enough to be an outside possibility, but I’m 100% convinced it’s “coons.” (I only put part of the work I did on identifying the phonemes in my YT video:

      But as i note at the beginning of that video, I don’t think an utterance of a single racial slur necessarily proves bigotry on the part of the speaker. It is common practice for most people to use slurs in a specific rather than categorical context. If you call a woman a bitch, or a man a bastard, that does not make you a misogynist or a misandropist, it just means you have a low opinion of that particular person, whom you have assigned to a pejorative subset of the larger category. A “bitch” is an evil woman, but it does not follow that you consider all women to be evil.

      One day many years ago, walking between Geary and Clement, in San Francisco, I overheard a middle-aged white homeless guy declare to two other (white) companions, “I got no trouble with black people, it’s niggers I can’t stand.” I immediately uttered an interior condescending laugh at what I took to be ludicrous racism. But by the time to Clement, i decided that he was just stating directly what most people privately feel about any category of ‘The Other’. You know, I’ve got no problem with white people, it’s red-neck crackers I can’t stand.

      So really, we can’t know if GZ’s singular use of “coons” is a signifier of a broader racial bigotry, or just a synonym for “black punk.” Either way, GZ profiled TM, and made a wholly inappropriate conclusion about him. That, it seems to me is beyond question, and thus falls into that category of things the prosecution can use at trial without opening certain cans of worms that might backfire on them.

      • seallison says:

        The prosecution will not get into racism AT ALL. If there was a hate crime being committed, that will be determined at a different time and place. The investigation is on-going. This is why the prosecution is leaving it alone. They are not trying a HATE CRIME.

      • Tzar says:

        How does it not show bigotry? What other reason did Trayvon give him to call him that?

        • racerrodig says:

          Skittles…..it had to be the Skittles because FogenPhoole is a role model and an upstanding American who is being railroaded by Corey and an unjust system targeting Hispanics…..who drive Honda Ridge Lines…..and wear red and ba-lack jackets…..and wear boots…..going to Target…….with a gun….married to women named SheLie……who mentor ba-lack kids…..every Sunday….behind on the rent…..who are broke…..facing car repossession….in February……during a leap year……that are unemployed……who lie…….

      • Tzar says:

        thank you for your erudite post

      • I don’t think an utterance of a single racial slur necessarily proves bigotry on the part of the speaker. It is common practice for most people to use slurs in a specific rather than categorical context. If you call a woman a bitch, or a man a bastard, that does not make you a misogynist or a misandropist

        man please!!

      • leander22 says:

        good comment, Whonoze. I am with you concerning phonetics. I was never too fond of this stuff when we had to phonetically transcribe specific native speakers at university. But it’s really not so hard, if you have to do it, since the credit is obligatory. I am 100% coons too. well done. Definitively no “g” sound.

        Have you seen Diwataman’s dubious visualization attempts? They left me completely puzzled. k u: n z; g u: n z; p j ŋ k s.
        ( IPA phonetic alphabet). As I wrote before, in phonetics I prefer to trust my ears and not my eyes. I really wondered why Diwatanut can be celebrated even by “enlightened” people.

        To stay with phonetics, I am with whoever wrote it yesterday very likeable voice. It’s now somehow hovering over your comment. 😉 …

        Good work, very meditative. I have to watch it again, especially considering the cruising around the clubhouse. In this context you have the advantage of having studied the whole tapes, and thus may be more able to recognize patterns. Strictly the specific time frame could have had much movements around the clubhouse unconnected to GZ. On the other hand that he did not park where he says is a relevant discovery.

        I am still a bit confused concerning Tschoupi, Whonoze, and yes, my early web friend on matters Teeslaw, who is missing. Well yes, it is not really important. But I was an early fan of Teeslaw too.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Whonoze IS teeslaw

    • Dave says:

      Whether the killer called Trayvon a “fucking coon”, a “fucking goon” or a “fucking punk” doesn’t really matter. His use of any one of these pejoratives is enough to establish his initial hostility toward a kid whom he had never met and who was doing nothing either illegal or harmful.

      • seallison says:

        Exactly right, Dave. That will come later. This is not being tried as a hate crime at this level.

      • leander22 says:

        Exactly, but we should not completely loose sight that bases on limited observations, the case of his neighbor Olivia Bertalan, and the ,GZ was very concentrated on young black males. Somehow obsessed that every single black juvenile he observed was connected to burglaries. And that is profiling. Which surfaces in the Serino interviews. Notice pajama k u: n z
        g u: n z, p j ŋ k s, the guy he observed at Taaffe’s house, pants versus the description of Burgess clothes. He may have based his obsessed perception on the beanie versus bomber hat. He sees what is on his mind in this context, not the reality. I would be more willing to believe that he really observed Burgess at Taaffe’s house if he had not put TM into the same category, and yes in this context it does ultimately not matter what specific slur he uses.

      • leander22 says:

        Oops I have no idea how that happened. I must have pushed a the wrong tap which copied k u: n z; g u: n z, p j ŋ k s.

        and now I lost the thread that was on my mind. Oh, yes. What any of these signifies, is, that he puts TM into a specific category without any evidence. Sean: Oh, he is just walking about, tell me when this guy does anything else (not verbatim) seems to make GZ slightly aggressive. This guy does not understand him, since he KNOWS he does not simply walk through the neighborhood but is one of the guys that always get away.

      • leander22 says:

        Ok, I was so agitated that not only did I push the wrong key but also I did not pay much attention on the resulting sentence structure.

        No matter what you choose, and that is why the prosecution did well in not producing a firestorm by using “coons”, he really uses, in context it denotes that he puts TM in a specific category.

        Please forgive the chaos in my first paragraph. I am pleased that some of the people I respect deeply have found their way here.


        thanks you all have thoughtful comments, concerning Whonoze Teeslaw, strictly he said so. But please do not add me to the category of “thoughtful comments” mentally. I prefer understatements concerning my own person. I am simply a “curious nitwit” trying to grasp a complex reality that is way beyond my head to grasp completely. Which means I am likely to err more often then be correct. Based on these my limited capacities to grasp the world out there, I initially admittedly wondered if you belong to the opposite camp and trying to flatter us with your name? I hope you will forgive me. Consider it evidence for my limited mental capacities.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I first signed up for MSNBC’s newsvine with this name handle during a discussion of government policy over taxes. I chose the name because I wanted to indicate that I was open to listening to viewpoints from all sides.

        Little did I know how much I would be posting on the Trayvon Martin case on MSNBC newsvine. When I came here to post, I kept the name because I wanted our Trayvon Team from MSNBC to recognize. Perhaps I should have signed up to the Leatherman blog with the name yahtc (abbreviation) which my Trayvon team at MSNBC also knows me by.

        Yes, leander, my name handle is a VERY poor one for this case and the whole range of comments thrown at me over these last months. For instance, when I have posted in defense of Trayvon and against gz on MSNBC newsvine, I have been called a “n lover” and I have been told I must have “white guilt”. From those who did not know I was white, I have been told that the reason I have so much time to post must be because I am on welfare with foodstamps, and I have been told that I must be a single mother with a low IQ.

        leander….click this link to see a sample of what our team had to deal with:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        leander, I humbly request you to get on my case if I post anything that comes across in a wrong manner. I would consider such call out as a favor and a chance for me to grow.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks, thoughtful, if may.

        I appreciate the explanation very much, since I can understand there are reasons not to shift between aka.

        This clarifies a lot for me. Thanks again. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        yahtc, nothing to complain from my side, really. Quite the opposite. that’s why I asked, I wanted to get that meme out of my head once and for all. I admittedly was a bit paranoid about the treeslaw camp for a while and may have been looking for evidence. Unfortunately your name triggered a slight suspicion at the time, but I am sure that is just me. Forget it, don’t worry..

      • leander22 says:

        Food stamps reminds me of Nazi Germany.

        I will look into this

        If someone here is on social security the money he receives is transfered to his bank account. Everybody over here has the right to a bank account no matter how much or how little money he has. But obviously it costs something. If you prefer to have no account for that reason, you get the money in cash. Food stamps would remind anybody over here of the Nazis and the time when food had to be rationed. And of course as you may imagine food stamps were stamped with a “J” for Jews which received even less, and additionally never got the extra rations which were occasionally given out to the “Volk”.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for your response, leander. I am glad I was able to clear up the name thing.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m with you on that one, Dave. I don’t think there is any one formula for “depraved mind” or “malice” or “ill will.” If you think a stranger is a member of some larger group you call “Fucking Punks,” that’s enough for me. You don’t have to be a racist; you don’t have to be a white racist; you don’t have to be any particular kind of bad person. You express your hostility to a person you do not know and have no reason to hurt; you proceed to hurt him. What’s your defense?

        • racerrodig says:

          The focus is simply that Fogen had no clue at all as to who Trayvon was. This is akin to any of us walking into a store and calling the 1st person we see a derogatory name of any kind.

          Why would we do that……There is no doubt Fogen had an agenda and was hell bent on seeing it through. Whether it was that night or the next, he was going to show how good a cop he could be.

          It doesn’t matter what name he called him, it should never have happened. As all of have said or thought, it should never have gotten past.

          1) Fogen minds his own business and just goes (allegedly)

          2) “Excuse me, I’m the Neighborhood Watch captain and I haven’t seen you before. My name is XXXXXX XXXXXXXXX are you lost, can I be of service?”

          That’s all of the possibilities…..but no….Fogen had to go so far overboard, a death results.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Since he took it upon himself to follow, against the rules he was given, no judge and probably no jury, is going to give him a pass on not identifying himself. That, is something that even a police officer would have had to do. You can follow as long as you remain undetected and therefore do not disturb the subject nor cause him/her to fear for their safety. However, once detected, you must immediately identify yourself, otherwise you are committing an assault, an attack, a presentation of a hostile situation that you are responsible for creating. That is offensive and not permitted!

          • racerrodig says:

            As always, very well said. When I grow up, I want to be just like
            you !!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with Xena and Dave and you that any of those pejoratives is enough to show that gz pursued with hostility toward Trayvon.

      I hear an aspirated c not an unaspirated g

    • Jun says:

      I feel he said coons too and if you use an audio software and isolate that particular part of the tape with a tape edit (What I mean is just cut only that area out) and you will hear that it sounds like coons

      However, punks is not exactly an endearing term, and obviously the defendant meant it in an ill manner, especially if you look at his myspace page as he called Mexicans “punks”

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Absolutely. Punks is not an endearing word. Punk is a term that came out of jail/prison culture for a man used sexually by prisoners. It also conveys a willingness to submit to rather than be the bully that makes another man a punk.

        This is why in the post on my blog, I suggest that if GZ didn’t say “coon,” that he said “poon” which is short for “poontang,” another word for “punk” of a softer variety; i.e., young and incapable of defending himself.

      • leander22 says:

        Interesting Xena, I did not know about the origins of punks. It makes immediately sense from a protest perspective (punk in music) which often adopts terms that are used as slander to express pride. The same happened in my generation with freak. And when I met punk circles they felt pretty similar to our own protest never mind the different outsides. it has become more difficult though politically once the extreme right started to use the same type music too. Although do they call it punk?

        Something else is interesting, the combination of whatever type of racism and sexual imagery, that seems to be a core ingredient you find all over the place. I have also noticed it on the web in clashes from ultimately opposing political camps. I was pretty startled at the time…

        Thus, I very, much appreciate the hint. the use of slang words with an initial sexual meaning that in turn are used for other deviants of society from whatever political perspective seems to have deep roots in our culture.

        Which reminds me I have to subscribe to OED online. I love to dive into the history of words and their usage.

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