Lonnie Starr has been working this case displaying high intelligence with the focus and determination of a dog working a bone. Pity the hapless and extremely over-matched defendant and his defense team. Just don’t get carried away feeling sorry for them.
He also has written the two White House petitions seeking a federal investigation of the defendant for violating Trayvon Martin’s civil rights and an end to the SYG laws.
Here is his theory of the case as he presented it in two comments this morning on the Tempest in a Teapot thread. Please read it and join the discussion below.
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Thank you.
Fred
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Unlike most investigators, I gather facts and work forward from there, creating an imaginary narrative that puts all the facts in place. Then I examine the details that don’t fit, and I then work backwards to see where they can be fitted. After I have a good narrative that accounts for as much as I can, then I sort of try to view it “from the side lines”, looking for the nexus of critical details, in other words, if this had happened, then this is what had to have been taking place as well. Then you take a closer look at what had to have happened along side what did happen, and if the narrative is false, insurmountable obstacles/anomalies appear.
Evidence can only lie by being contrived to give a false impression. People, however, have more options to falsify. So, believe the evidence more than the people who observe it, but only believe the evidence itself, if you cannot imagine that it has been contrived. If it is possible to contrive evidence, then it is possible to fool witnesses, and this is exactly the objective of the criminal mind.
So, you work backward, then forward and backwards again and take looks from the sides, it’s like panning for nuggets of gold. The chaff and waste eventually washes away, leaving the hard stuff behind.
It puzzled me for a long time, why a law student, would go out on a hunt that both the law and the rules of NW definitively prohibited. What would be the percentage in that? He’d have broken every rule and the law besides! How could he think that would make him a hero? When, any fool could see, all he’d wind up with is a harmless kid being held, who had a right to be in the neighborhood. What could he possibly do in that event? The answer is, kill the kid! That’s the only thing that prevents the comparisons from being made. But that is only a stall, since the truth would probably come out anyway.
So then, what does GZ need to make the planned hunt okay, despite the laws and the rules? The answer is: evidence that a crime had been committed. So then the question is “what kind of crime can be carried and displayed under a wide variety of circumstances”? The answer is: Bloody wounds! They can be claimed to have happened outside of the sight of any witnesses who later appear. They are hard to refute because, it’s hard to believe that a “pillar of the community” would actually harm himself, for the purpose of misleading the public, about a crime, it doesn’t appear he would or could plan.
But think about it, if George leaves his house bleeding from carefully designed wounds, he has a “crime” that can be used in a variety of ways, to excuse all breaking of rules and justify breaking the law as well. Those wounds were designed to shield him from the prohibitions of rules and laws. But, because they were created before any other actions were taken, they must not be professionally examined, if the time of their creation could be determined at all. This means that the creation of these wounds could not be left to chance. They are an integral part of the nights activities, however or whatever else happens. Only the how of obtaining them need be changed to fit what actually takes place.
This leaving home on the hunt for this project, is a “high octane” emotional performance, that required dedicated intent. It is likely that medication and alcohol, which lowers inhibitions and increases calm, would be taken to steady the nerves. If so, it adds yet another reason why the ER must be avoided at all costs, and of course, to accomplish that, the wounds must be and remain superficial, and not require professional treatment.
Next up is GZ undoing himself. He rehearsed a plausible story, probably several. As a NW, who knows that he cannot be either on patrol or following, he leaves home with a story about going shopping. To cover up notification, he “spots” his target over by FT’s cut through, a good story for night time affairs, since it comes through a “strange” area. (Of course, we are later to learn it wasn’t so strange to find people walking that way at all).
But George has his bloody head wounds to shield himself, which ever way the story plays out. The first problem arises, he can’t find the target, where he has been told to look. So he retraces his path, looking to pick up the trail. (tchoupi’s work), His fellow Watchers see his predicament and call him to correct his error, by pointing out that the target is still there at the mailboxes. George goes back and spots him, and there the play begins.
According to the script, GZ needs to frighten his target into engaging actions that can be portrayed as strange. He accomplishes this by shining his lights on the target as he shelters in the mail shed. Unbeknownst to GZ, however, his target is on the phone and gives notice of GZ’s hostile presence. So, an explanation of TM’s actions from that point onward are explained. Bad news for GZ!
When TM leaves the shelter of the mail boxes, it is actually raining harder than it was when he first got there. Meaning he was already spooked. But he contains himself enough to walk, probably out of GZ’s sight before he actually runs. However, GZ has his little defense shield in place, and since this gives him the lattitude he needs to break the rules and the law, he sets up the scene with “he’s running” to the NEN operator, then he exits his car. This one cannot get away, because George has intentions that will not allow it to happen that way. Meanwhile TM is unaware of how dangerous the situation really is, so he quickly assesses that not seeing GZ, means that he’s no longer being followed, and continues his walk home. Only to find GZ behind him again.
GZ intends to grab and hold TM for the police, using his wounds as a reason and lawful cause for doing so. That would make him a hero, if it would play out that way. Only trouble was, TM was still extremely childish far beyond his years. If only TM was more mature, the story would have worked. But, since TM was so extremely childlike, the planned story would quickly reveal as absurd. A whining, crying child asking for his momma, isn’t going to sell as a thug of any kind. GZ blames TM’s lack of maturity for inexplicably thwarting his heroic plans and decides that TM’s demeanor and character must not be allowed to display. By killing TM he accomplishes, preventing immediate challenge to his claims of attack, while making himself the only credible witness of all the events of that night.
GZ had a well rehearsed story, for how things transpired. In his drug and alcohol induced state, he can do no more than recite it verbatim. It all occurred at the “T”, where he did not follow TM, but was instead attacked while attempting to retreat. The trouble is, he was unable to modify the story as needed, thus he cannot account for the fact that the body is 40.5 feet away from where it needs to be, for the purpose of his well rehearsed story.
This story could have easily been modified to account for this distance south of the ‘T’, but Georges becalmed state, as evidenced by his bio stats, precluded critical thinking.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Lonnie, just an addendum to the “alcohol and drugs” aspect of your theory: If I recall accurately, Zimmerman had active prescriptions for Adderall (10 mg dextroamphetamine + 10 mg amphetamine sulfate) and something else (a benzodiazepine, I believe). The amphetamine can produce side effects such as obsessive-compulsive behavior and paranoid psychosis. If Zimmerman were a fraction as wise as he appears to believe he is, he might have mounted a viable defense of involuntary intoxication–but he’s not.
In any case, that would be one more reason for him to avoid an ER visit, although ironically, it might have produced the only evidence that might save him. Also, the amphetamine and verbal pressure it’s known to induce may very well have been what caused him to so stupidly waive his Miranda protections a priori to the commission of the crime by providing a real-time narrative of the stalking/murder to the police department.
Good catch!
The reasons behind the NEN call are extremely complex. Consider:
The NEN call, actually started at 7:09pm at the mail shed.
But, as false as that narrative — contained in the call — is, GZ moves the start of his tracking to several minutes prior to that, by creation of an addendum that includes a first sighting at FT’s place.
Now, note, none of what supposedly happens by FT’s cut through is on tape. That is not revealed until the next day when the reenactment happens. Then we learn that he’s on his way to go shopping, when suddenly, as he passes FT’s place, he spots a figure back in the cut through, coming towards the cars parked at the front of the house. Mind you, that figure is wearing clothing so dark, that in another dark area later on, witnesses will be unable to see the figure clearly.
Now, in fashioning this narrative — around FT’s place — how could
GZ forget that this road, he drives everyday, has difficult navigational features? Coming from his house to the north turn, the RVC west, bends continuously to the west, getting sharper and sharper as you drive north, until it suddenly turns sharply east. Because of the sharpness of the west bend, at the north end of the west leg, the turn east is sharper than 90º, check the map. Worse yet, for GZ’s little narrative, not only are difficult navigational features in play, but it’s raining as well, making a difficult situation even more dangerous.
Under these conditions, as one is approaching the north end of RVC west, not only is their attention required by the constantly bending roadway, but, the sharpness of the upcoming turn requires that one actually look at the road in front, in an attempt to detect oncoming traffic as they approach this ultra sharp turn. You have to look carefully at the road to see if you can detect headlights coming your way, because it’s going to be especially dangerous, for two cars to be navigating that turn at the same time, from opposite directions.
So then, under this set of complex conditions, that are completely ignored by the act of setting a sighting into it, GZ wants us to believe that a trip to the store, plus these conditions, is not distracting enough, to prevent him from seeing someone standing back from the roadway in shadows. At a ~90º angle to his line of travel and through a rain speckled drivers side window, he spots a dark clad figure, while he’s moving at some ~40 ft/sec.. Then, without even stopping he observes the figure go through some 15 seconds of actions, all while he’s approaching this sharp right (east) turn.
Obviously GZ knows his own routes of travel. If he had fashioned this story, he most certainly would have, put the figure already out on the road, where he could more credibly have seen him, despite his navigational difficulties. So, obviously this portion of the story is “forced” upon him. Probably added by someone who does not want to be revealed, but who does not understand the navigational difficulties of that part of the road. GZ goes along with these narrative add ons without question, because he’s impressed with the person who provided them. But this portion of the story is cut from whole cloth. All the way up to his false claim that he parked at the clubhouse — and started the NEN call there — before going over to TTL, to “continue” to follow Trayvon at the mail shed.
So, the story itself kind of points a finger at who might have fashioned it. Why GZ would be so impressed that he would not try to alter it, probably has more to do with who showed up at the scene that night. Guess who could have known who showed at the scene, that was unusual, and also had the opportunity to share that information with GZ?
Who is that you say? Why, now you’re becoming an even bigger conspiracy theorist than I’m supposed to be! 😀
sdunn5 says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:38 pm
I am confused by the aspect of “counter claim”. This is a criminal charge of murder 2 not one of civil liability, the poster is a nimrod, Lonnie do not get baited into it. If the prosecution were to go round for round with these people the entire trial would be a circus. I believe they have more then enough evidence to convict fogen.
—————————————-
The idea of a “counter claim” comes from taking a view outside that nights activities. As if one were totally enmeshed in the planning stage of an action that had not yet taken place.
Thus: What do you do if the suspect does that?
In this kind of brainstorming session, you’d be trying to figure out, what you would need to say, do, or have as proof, to “counter” any claim that you had committed any crime, such as following, stalking, unlawful detention. But not murder, since that is not in the plan, because it is to easily seen to complicate matters unnecessarily and raise the level of scrutiny the case will attract.
So, look at this part of it this way: You are sitting with GZ, MO, FT, and possibly someone from the SPD, and GZ is gingerly offering the subject of, how do I get around the rules, so as to justify actually detaining someone for the police to arrive.
It is my belief that a discussion of this type, will result in the conclusion that, prepared wounds should be worn to the event, as the safest way to ensure, that the need to apprehend and detain a suspect while armed, will not run afowl of the laws and rules that would prohibit it under normal circumstances.
We have not explored any other possible methods to achieve such a goal. I imagine there are others, but this one appears to me, to be the simplest. The only thing missing above is the warning that these wounds must not be viewed at the ER by a seasoned medical professional [a doctor]. Which can only be ensured by being certain that, in spite of how much blood is released, the wounds remain so superficial as to not require treatment.
Obviously, for the purpose of this brainstorming exercise, wounds that are obtained accidentally, cannot be certain to be so totally superficial as to not require a trip to the ER.
Nor can they be counted on to appear, where ever or whenever they might happen to be needed, in the course of an unpredictable mission.
The TM White house petition is at : 1,004 http://wh.gov/IXcy
The Ban SYG petition is at 14 http://wh.gov/52B2
The ProZ petition is at :758
Let’s take it from the top:
The police arrive one minute after the gunshot is fired.
Seconds before the police arrive, a photo of GZ’s head is taken.
40 seconds after the gunshot, a witness reports that GZ got to his feet.
Zimmerman claims that his head was being beaten against the concrete for a full minute before he wriggled off the pavement, drew his gun and fired.
The NEN call started at 7:09.
The shot is fired at 7:16
The police arrive at 7:17
Now, forget about speculation. When will GZ have to prove to the jury, that his head wounds opened up?
Answer: Sometime between 7:14 and before he got to his feet.
So, there is only less than 2 minutes available before the picture of his head is taken, and the wounds beginning to bleed.
So the question is, does that look like a picture of fresh wounds that have begun bleeding within 2 minutes?
Remember, this “speculation” is based on the only evidence we have, with the conflicts left out. Bring those conflicts back in and GZ cannot prove self defense at all, “no way Jose”, Nada, Kaputo, GZ is toast! Because he cannot refute his own testimony before the jury and hope they’ll believe one version over his other one. Most especially not with the SP being able to refute both versions.
When this thread started, I did not really think there was much possibility to Lonnie’s guessed-at scenario of Fogen arranging some wounds at home before going out hunting. I still think the percentage probability is on the low side but I am beginning to think of it with just a bit less skepticism, because of this:
By late February 2012 Fogen knew, and everybody in the RTL KNEW, that the major culprit for the problems in RTL (Emmanuel Burgess, responsible for at least three of the actual 11 incidents that occurred during the prior year) was not only in jail, but, thanks to evidence such as fingerprint evidence and so forth, would end up staying in jail for a lengthy period of time. And Burgess had committed his crimes in the middle of the day, and knew which houses were empty at that time. Burgess LIVED in the neighborhood.
Fogen had to realize that his chances of catching a real “real suspicious looking guy” were mighty slim. Migh-teeee-slim. Thinking about this, I realized that he would have less and less opportunity to show the HOA folks how important he was with his loaded “weapon” strapped onto his hefty hip. Indeed, as he said, “Time was running out.”
Here’s a little something I wrote on the bcclist.com for perusal:
[written in response to a doubter who states there is no evidence of it]
“There I can agree, the tautology of it is strong, but the evidence for it is “interpretive” at best. It is based on assuming what would be necessary, if GZ had a plan to confront and detain, and still not be charged with a crime there for [for doing so]. Because a counter claim would be absolutely necessary in that event.
Thus, it appears to me, that some are saying in effect, that GZ would plan to confront and detain, despite NW rules and despite the laws, and only hope that something that could be used as evidence of a counter claim, would fortuitously appear, either by accident, or by him having time to design it.
In my experience criminals don’t leave their necessities to chance, they prepare them in advance to ensure that they will be there.”
————end of quote
The question I attempt to raise is, if GZ knew he was going to hold, confront and detain anyone, what would his justification be, if he had no wounds to present as evidence he had been attacked?
Assume that no one was going to be killed, and that GZ was intending to turn the culprit over to the Police when they arrived.
Would GZ chance standing there with only a story about being attacked? While turning over to the police, someone he was only claiming to have committed a crime against himself?
What would the point of that be? Most especially if the person he held was a stranger to him, and he therefore did not know what kind of character references or other evidence might be brought to bear against him?
In this case the failure of his claimed attack would present as dramatically false. TM’s display would quickly put the lie to any claim of violence on his part if he had lived.
So, GZ would know that he was setting out to commit a crime that would require cover!
Why does anyone think he would leave it to chance that he would or could obtain any such cover, once he was out on the scene and engaged? Does anyone think he could possibly have known what would happen before hand? Could he count on an accident or any design to bloody his head as needed?
Can he be absolutely certain that any accidental wounds, or wounds created under pressure at the scene, would be so superficial as to not demand a trip to the ER as the medics would be required to demand if the wounds appeared to be serious?
GZ’s slurred speech, is a good indication that he had taken either drugs or alcohol or both before going out on his mission. Would he want to chance that being detected by a tox screen?
These are the elements that only prepared wounds can provide answers for. Thus I present that it’s more likely than not, that this is the preparations he accomplished.
The evidence of it is slim but compelling. There is dried blood present, before it should be there. There is coagulated blood trails in a picture taken within 2.5 minutes of the claimed assault that created the wounds, in wet weather, on wet concrete and supposedly immediately rolled in wet grass, almost as soon as the bleeding began.
For the coagulated blood to present, the wounds would have to be created while the NeN call was in progress. While for the dried blood to present, the bleeding would have to have started more than half an hour prior to these events.
While that may not be enough evidence for some, it just might be enough evidence for some technically skilled investigator to certify by their own methodology. We will have to wait and see.
But, it’s not like I haven’t been right before, using gossamer suggestions embedded in the evidence I viewed.
I forgot the LOL!
I am confused by the aspect of “counter claim”. This is a criminal charge of murder 2 not one of civil liability, the poster is a nimrod, Lonnie do not get baited into it. If the prosecution were to go round for round with these people the entire trial would be a circus. I believe they have more then enough evidence to convict fogen.
In addition to your masterful argument, consider- why was the truck moved so quickly? Blood evidence on the car seats? We’ll never know, but now it becomes much more sinister.
Sent from my iPod
Feeling kind of dumb, but it’s a decent comparison….. Standing on a 2 ft. brick wall while trimming roses today, pitching spent branches into a 5 gallon bucket; turned to make a toss, miscalculated my angle and fell backward onto the grass hitting my head on the edge of the pebbled cement pathway. Ouch, big time, stars and dizziness. So I’m not, “cough, cough” fighting for my life but I certainly had to take some time before getting up and collecting my thoughts.
Months ago I wrote “The more I think about it the more convinced I am GZ started watching Trayvon much earlier. I truly believe he spotted Trayvon leaving The Retreat on his way to 7-11 and followed him because he looked “real suspicious”. When Trayvon returned to The Retreat GZ started following him in earnest.
Maybe that’s just one more reason Trayvon said (per DeeDee) ““why you following me for?” . Quite possibly Trayvon had spotted GZ following him prior to his return from 7-11.
All speculation but I think it’s something worth considering since GZ had a bad habit of peeping out the window and accosting people he *thought* looked like they didn’t belong, because according to him “I know all the kids in my neighborhood, all the adults in my neighborhood”
I believe in his haste to catch Trayvon he slipped and fell, which would account for the vertical abrasions/lacerations.
GZ has no angle that allows him to view TM’s path either to or from the store. He would have had to leave home and traipse about in the rain, or cruise along in his truck. Doubtful in the extreme, since I do believe he was getting ready to go shopping with his wife. I think he took fifty dollars out of that baggie and had dropped two quarters in, as a reminder of how much he needed to put back. That baggie, very likely contained fees he had collected, but had not yet recorded or was bound to turn in.
So, I think that his plan to go shopping was interrupted by a call to action. If he planned to grab and detain someone, then he needed to take his time and fashion the head wounds he would need to justify the confrontation and detention. He did not know how it would take place, he could only hope that it would. He needed to be sure that, even if it took place under the most unfavorable circumstances, where his target screamed out and dozens of witnesses appeared on the spot, he could still point to his wounds as the reason for initiating the confrontation.
No matter how unbelievable the story would sound, under certain circumstances, we do realize now, that the SPD would be there to take him at his word. Using the bloody head to certify GZ’s claims for him.
Meanwhile, back at the house again, GZ knew it would take time to prepare for the hunt. So, anyone who assisted him, would expect to be required to keep an eye on the target until GZ could arrive. They’d also want to keep communications to a minimum, so they don’t call GZ back, until he drives away from the mail boxs after making his first pass. The watcher obviously realizes GZ has missed the target who is still there, so he call GZ to tell him he’s still there. GZ then turns back to make a second inspection of the mail box area and lo and behold there TM is.
Can someone with a Twitter account please tweet the following
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10196279.htm
To:
@examinercom
TYIA
TM petition has 975 signatures now, yesterday was a banner day.
http://wh.gov/IXcy
YAY!!
Lonnie, the HOA was broke, underwater. They couldn’t have been considering hiring SPD at 30.00/hr or even GZ at much less. So he wasn’t auditioning for a paid job….a hero complex for his daddy substitute, Osterman, fueled by steroid rage. Basing steroid use on his much larger frame in 2/26 pix. In his April court appearance he is much smaller. He eats when under stress and eats and then eats some more as we saw in his last court appearance so his April court appearance, a third smaller than his 2/26 pixs isn’t due to loss of appetite, rather to no longer abusing steroids.
Also, if you listen to his jail phone calls, he is a fussy wussy person….”I’m cold, ohh got shower today, I’m chilly, mattress felt like there was a pea under it..;-). always worried about getting enough sleep, even discussing his sleep needs about the drive from. Maryland to Jax. My point is I don’t feel GZ is macho enough to hurt himself, even to be a hero to Osterman.
I’m a retired clinical social worker so somewhat knowledgeable about human behavior, hoping this doesn’ t come across as too arrogant just IMHO.
Really appreciate your time and signed your petition last week! Hope it reaches critical mass.
But the HOA DID hire the SPD to conduct patrols in that gated community. It’s in one of their Newsletters in discovery.
Today was our biggest single day for signers 140 at last count, with hours still to go.
I don’t think that the HOA being broke would have mattered much to GZ, just to have the “honor” of getting the title would have been enough. People will do more for medals and honors than will ever be done for cash.
Went all this started I was first to disbelieve that GZ saw TM by FT’s place, just based on the circumstances of what such a sighting would entail. Now we have good evidence that GZ didn’t see TM there. Back then was also when I first suspected the wounds might have been older than claimed, as a very good reason for GZ not wanting to go to the ER and have them examined. Then someone added an additional reason why GZ would also not want to go to the ER. They suspected that his slurred speech was the product of drugs and/or alcohol, such that he’d want to avoid a tox screen.
That’s when I considered him very lucky for a while, that his wounds didn’t go deeper and require a trip to the ER. Later on, after I saw how GZ was attempting to manipulate his actions, so as to avoid being in conflict with NW rules and the law, that said to me that he knew of the various prohibitions against following and/or grabbing and detaining without good and sufficient cause to do so.
In fact his methods of avoiding running afowl of either the law or the NW rules, showed that he had put in a substantial amount of time considering them, and how various scenarios would play out, in advance. After you do that work, you realize that the wounds are key to allowing him to follow and capture and hold, even while armed, because these wounds can become whatever defense he needs. So then you have to ask yourself, “Why would he leave such critical evidence to chance if he didn’t have to?”
If, for any reason, he later has no need of it, he can simply say that he slipped and fell. But, if he needs it, it’s there to be used to blame the target for it. Best yet, if he’s responsible for their creation, then he can be confident they won’t require a trip to the ER. If he left it to accidental, or created in haste at the scene, he couldn’t be sure they would be so easily dismissed, because he’d have less control over their configuration.
Well, think it over for a while. He wants to catch and detain some prey, but there are high barriers to him doing anything like that without a good and sufficient excuse.
Malisha says:
December 5, 2012 at 8:29 am
Let’s send letters to Santa Claus about what he should give Cheorge this year.
Reply no point the suspect has not been nice an is in the naughty book..Id like to send him a soap on a rope though…Just for funnin…
Let’s send letters to Santa Claus about what he should give Cheorge this year.
lol@Malisha
X-rays dated 02/26/2012 of Chorge’s “broken” nose.
Let’s all write “open letters to Robert Zimmerman Jr.”
After all, he’s become an important commentator on the state of the nation, hasn’t he? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
Russell Simmons · Subscribe · Top Commenter · New York, New York · 187,469 subscribers
we continue our quest towards justice for Trayvon. beautiful words, Michael Skolnik.
russel simmons commented on Skolniks open letter to rzjr!!
http://globalgrind.com/news/robert-zimmerman-open-letter-you-didnt-kill-trayvon-martin-michael-skolnik-blog
Excellent response by Michael.
Hey, he is on Twitter. @MichaelSkolnik
Can someone with a Twitter account tweet him the following, please.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10196279.htm
(Sorry Shannon — not disrespecting your comment but when reading Michael’s article, I saw his Twitter account.)
IIRC, The incident about undercover cops, didn’t GZ or SZ say it was at a bar. This witness says it was at library at UCF. Huh?
Click to access zimmerman-fdle-friend-interview-1204.pdf
Yep. It says library. It was an underage drinking sting — and GZ obstructed justice along with assaulting the officer. Maybe if he had been appropriately prosecuted then, he would not have gotten a license to carry a gun later.
I know it was either GZ or O’mara said it was a bar. I have to check all my videos. Darn, that will drive me a little bonkers.
You know, it being a bar didn’t sound right to me. I have a friend who worked in DC in the same capacity of licensing, service to under-aged, etc. When a bar is serving alcohol to under-aged people, the authorities verify the DOB of the person being served, and then cite and/or arrest the bartender or establishment owner.
OOPs, I forget to look. brb
Great letter by Michael Skolnik.
I gotta give skolnik respect
I woulda just called Junior out for the liar that he is
like Jesus Christ, all your brutha had was a bloodclot couple scrapes on the back of his head, like a quarter inch each, and a maybe for the nose
a kid is fucking dead, after your brother targeted, stalked, harassed, threatened, terrorized, shot the kid, then sat on the kid’s back, asphyxiating him with his fat ass
A friend of mine had two mynas in huge cages in the living room. Her husband used to sit on the sofa and call softly for the dog, “Here Mozart, Here Mozart,” and their huge golden lab would come loping in to be petted. One day when the dad was not home one of the birds yells, “Here Mozart, Here Mozart” and the dog comes running in and looks around at the sofa and — huh? And the dog looks totally bewildered. And the other bird bursts out laughing so loud it sounds like 2:00 a.m. after a party. These two silly birds did that several times a day and the dog never figured out what was happening. I told the mom she should have filmed it for America’s Funniest Home Videos but she never did and now the dog died.
Hey — someone send in “George folding paper” to America’s funniest home videos, OK?
New Post Up:
State’s 9th Supplemental Discovery Release in Trayvon Martin Murder Case
One more thing that has always bothered me about this case is that the neighborhood watch captain knew how to kill someone, but he did not know how to initiate CPR. In fact, no one, before the medics arrived, put their damn hands on the kid’s chest and at least gave some sort of life-saving effort. He likely could not have been saved, but no one tried, so we will never know.
These cops cut this guy loose on his word, when they had a dead, teenage John Doe in the morgue. That’s that, and I do not believe they would have done that, if the kid had been white. There, I said it.
I’m sorry to have to agree with you about the racial aspect of how Trayvon was treated. That’s the uncomfortable truth that has been so hurtful to many of us.
Yes, and I am very sorry to have felt it necessary to say such a thing. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest. We now live in Kentucky. One of my observations here that I did not notice much in the NW has been that, unfortunately, racism, is very real. The strange thing is, it’s so real that many do not even realize that it is a phenomenon that seems to be ingrained into the culture. I don’t even know if I am making any sense or just sounding crazy, but the way people walked around Trayvon doing nothing whatsoever to help him before the medics got there was very bizarre. One would think that anybody who has ever watched a TV show at least would attempt some chest compressions, or attempt asking, “Hey, can you hear me?” Just anything.
Neighborhood watch groups need to be required to keep more records. Who has signed up to do what and when, records of what incidents and other errata they report and things that NW has done, is doing or will do. When people opt out the date they terminate. We know from the evidence dumps that some people were on GZ’s “trees” but there’s no information about who these people were, where they lived or what they reported to GZ.
I do believe Cheorge planned it but he’s an idiot and there is also the math of action to reaction which causes plans to go haywire.
@ JUN. i believe Cheorge is an idiot. There is no doubh about that, but I also believe he could have had some help in ths setup. If indeed it was a setup. I just don’t think Cheorge has the smarts to set this up alone. Just look at all the lies he has told. He can’t keep the lies straight. When you tell one lie,you have to lell another lie to keep the the first lie believerable. I just don’t think Cheorge is that clever to conjure all this up on his own. If true, I believe he had to have help. Cheorge cannot even keep a straigh face. Just look at him, something is definitely wrong with him. I still say if Lonnie’s theory is corect, and someone else is involved Cheorge will sing.
Please forgive my typos, It’s late and I am sleepy. See you guys in the morning.
You better believe he had help, The Osterman Resource for one, probably assisted him in keeping outside of NW rules for the various exercises GZ employed over the months prior to the final act. Someone or one’s at the SPD also provided advice on one of GZ many visits.
In my opinion, the biggest fail came in the form of GZ being drugged up and inebriated when he went out on the hunt. That deprived him of his critical thinking skills, such that he didn’t realize where he was, when the shooting actually took place. Thus he merely recites his rehearsed story, about being on his way back to his truck, when he was knocked to the ground at the ‘T’.
A rational person would have altered that narrative to account for moving some distance away from there during an ensuing battle. GZ was too addled to perform the needed mental tasks, so all he could do was recite from memory, the story that he had prepared.
Since his many conflicting versions had not resulted in his being arrested, he came to believe that the fix was already in, and that he was already immune to error. So, he simply kept making things up as he went along. Why not? None of it seemed to matter for 46 days. Besides, by then his story was already so munged, there was no chance at all of straightening things out. So, when the hue and cry arose, all he could think of was a plan to run. The Osterman Resource probably offered helpful suggestions with that as well.
As far as George singing, I sincerely doubt any LEO, most especially The Osterman Resource, would get very close to George and his plans, they’d know enough to stay in the back ground. Offer advise and suggestions/information, then stand clear.
If so, all George has on them is that they were very helpful to him, but that doesn’t criminally charge. The Osterman Resource might get caught in some blow back for having helped remove the truck from the scene. But, unless he can be identified as a part of the hunt, he’s still in the clear for any more serious charges.
This is yet another reason for the cops’ spectacular failure to take a look at the interior of the car that he claimed he was driving that night. Or truck. Whatever. A photograph would have been helpful, to say the least. Was there blood in it? We will never know.
i was just thinking about that. if GZ made the injuries first, there mighta been blood on something in the car.
another epic fail for SPD.
But if there would have been blood in the car there should have been blood on his clothes
Good point. This case is problematic in many ways where there is blood either present or missing, in terms of piecing together what happened.
>^..^< very convincing theory. I still suspect a motive of some kind, though. Why would ANYONE support GZ in his sick hunting fantasy?
I found this on youtube. I don’t know what to think of it.
Yes, I’ve seen that video too.
That guy was getting a tattoo — so it has been said, which is why the blood is running in different directions. I wish we could find the source of the photo.
Actually someone posted a picture of that tatooed guy in the same picture, but without the blood. At the time I was onto something else so I paid it little attention. Wait, I might have saved it on my evidence pile somewhere. I’ll have to check.
Off-topic: As most of you know, and as the tree folks love to joke about, we dumpster dive, and recycle, and I often write about it. Anyway, here is a recent photo of Fred for the curious.
Don’t mean to interrupt!
always nice to see the good professor
and looking so spy too 🙂
spy=spry
I agree he looks spry but he also looks spy. 😎
What’s he eating from the bag? 🙂
Nacho chips! There are often 25 or more bags of them available. The fruit is a pomegranate (we collected 10 or so good ones):
One of the managers at this particular place who very generously also donates to the food bank, was very kind and gave us some stew meat as well.
I’ve never been able to find a sweet pomegranate. They always put my teeth on edge. Sounds like you guys live in the right place among people with good hearts (free stew meat. Yummy!)
I remember a time that rather than let food go bad, grocery store owners gave it away.
Also, I remember a time when people had left-overs from Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner, they took it by the firehouse. Now you can’t do that without liability insurance.
I know what you mean, and I really wish it could be that way again. The waste in this country is shameful and unnecessary, especially given the need. It doesn’t make any sense.
Pomegranates are a bit of work to peel, but I like them in salads. Also, our parrot is spoiled. Just rotten spoiled. He now has taught himself to bark and meow. It’s nuts.
Well he IS an African Grey! Pretty dang smart species of bird. I have a Double Yellow Headed Amazon who has taught herself music from Phantom if the Opera. Really, it’s no mystery why I prefer animals to people sometimes…
Sent from my iPod
OMG, too cool! I love hearing from fellow bird people. I’ll bet she is beautiful!
I LOVE parrots. Had a friend (she moved to Arizona) who has a parrot. He was caught in his swing — it twisted around him — and he cried out like a baby. Everyone came running to see what was wrong.
A few days later, he cried the same way. Everyone came running to see what was wrong and he laughed — literally laughed like a “gotcha” because nothing was wrong. He liked bananas. The last time I spoke with her she set up a Trust for him.
Yes, birds have a wonderful sense of humor, and are capable of mockery and deception, all for pure amusement. Nikko does the wub-wub-wub from the Three Stooges, better than Curley, I swear. Then, he laughs himself sick.
And some people have the nerve to call them bird brains. SMH.
I know. Amazing.
In my twenties I met a guy in the Bronx, who was known as “Morris The Bum”, that was his nickname and he didn’t mind it at all. One night I met him on Lexington avenue in the 50’s and since I had nothing to do, I walked with him on a dumpster dive. He went over to some big commercial buildings on Park avenue and into the dumpster he went. That was a night to remember, he found a slew of old books someone in an office had thrown out.
That’s when he introduced me to wood block and needle point graphic art. A very old style of art that was used in printing. He cut a few pages out of the book later that night and told me where to take them the next day. The next day I took them to this guy, he gave me 500 bucks and this is back in the early 70’s. You could fly to Miami with a free stop over in the Bahamas for 99 bucks. Or you could rent a car for a month from Avis with no mileage for just 200. With gas at about 40 cents a gallon you could drive to your hearts content.
Needless to say, with all the books Morris had in his huge prewar apartment, I could easily imaging he was a multimillionaire. When ever he needed money he would just take a page or two from one of those old books and sell it. And yeah, he told me I should have gotten a thousand for those pages I sold. But no matter, whenever I saw Morris the bum, we were both on the same page, so to speak. lol.
We have collected out of dumpsters quite a collection of old books. Some are worth hundreds of dollars, some perhaps more.
Don’t want to sell them though.
I always like books, I can read a few books and before you know it I’ve got a new project on my hands. Some of them have been way to wild, high risk projects, you don’t realize exactly what you’re getting into until your in far enough to see the details. But all’s well that ends well as they say.
I found a dumpster back in the mid 70’s that was just loaded to the brim with magazines in good to mint condition. National Geo, Architectural, everything under the sun. So I went and brought a hammer and some nails. There was lumber in the dumpster, so I fished some out and a couple of pieces of plywood and made a table about a block away on a high traffic street. I loaded the tables with the magazines just to see what would happen. I went and got coffee and sat down.
Sure enough within half an hour I had people browsing and asking prices. So I quoted according to size, fifty cents, 75 a dollar. By time I got tired and the crowd thinned out I’d taken in over a hundred dollars. Not bad for just sitting around with nothing to do.
All he needs are some super-spy shades . . .
I don’t believe Zimmerman intentionally injured himself, nor that he set out that night to kill someone.
I believe in any one of three equally plausible scenarios as to how he came across Trayvon: (1) he was tipped by a third party; (2) he saw Trayvon walking whilst Zimmerman was driving (whether on patrol or going to the store); or (3) he espied Trayvon whilst the boy was sheltering by the mailboxes.
I also believe that he had every intention to detain Trayvon until the LEO arrived, and that he pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon for either or both of two reasons – he was pissed off by the injuries and by Trayvon failing to yield, and/or he was frightened of the questions he’d face once the LEO arrived (and subsequent charges with Trayvon as the victim).
As to his injuries, there are several credible reasons – he could have walked or ran into, or fallen onto (slipped, pushed, or simply not seeing the obstruction or not paying attention) bare tree branches, shrubbery, signage near the trash bin, sprinkler heads, utility covers, cement dog walk… What didn’t happen is easier to describe – there’s absolutely no evidence that Trayvon punched, bashed, suffocated, or otherwise assaulted Zimmerman.
I agree with everything. However, it isn’t what you know, it is what you can prove, and therein lies the problem.
Prosecution doesn’t need to prove how Cheorge got the injuries. They only have to prove that the injuries were nowhere near life-threatening. Duh…
Also, the prosecution doesn’t need to prove that it was Trayvon screaming for help OR that his father recognized his voice as he was screaming for help. They don’t even have to prove that Cheorge did NOT scream for help. All they have to prove is that, no matter who screamed and no matter how the injuries appeared on Cheorge, the injury that appeared on Martin and killed him did so as a result of Cheorge’s depraved following and shooting of the youth.
Don’t forget that when Cheorge gets challenged he becomes “another guy,” like a Jeckyll & Hyde effect. That came from the guy who worked the private parties with him. I think when Cheorge gets challenged and when his adrenalin is pumping and his self-image is suffering, he goes berserk. I don’t mean “berserk” in the “not criminally responsible” way, but “berserk” in the “disinhibited” way, that he has no normal control over his behavior, that he becomes like an angry three-year-old defending his “whatever” against invasion by another three-year-old. The sky’s the limit and the kid feels entirely justified and he acts like a tiny tyrant and he does as much harm as possible. That’s the way I see Cheorge.
Er… How could he become a hero by detaining TM if he did not have any injuries to claim that there was a serious fight that he didn’t start himself?
If he obtained his wounds by some accident, then how could he know that he would obtain them, in time for them to be of any use?
If he obtained them by accident, how would he know that they would not be so severe, that he’d have to go to the ER?
There are just too many variables for him to leave it to chance, that he’d somehow pick up wounds that were so necessary, if he had only planned to detain TM and not kill him. Because, if he detained Trayvon and did not have any wounds, he would have been guilty of committing a felony, since he would have had to have witnessed a crime, and there would be none in evidence at all.
The idea that he could become a hero by merely rushing out and detaining Trayvon is totally false, it would have landed him in jail!
His actions, if he didn’t plan to kill Trayvon, required that he have some sort of evidence of a crime having been committed, to allow him to detain Trayvon lawfully, anything else would have sent him to prison.
Which is why he had to have a prepared set of wounds, if he intended to detain Trayvon, because that would be the evidence of a crime that he needed to justify his own actions. Because it is a critical necessity he needs to be sure that it’s there! Because he has to bring the wounds with him, because he can’t take the chance that some accident will create them, they have to be superficial enough not to need treatment, because a professional will see that they’re too old to be part of the story as claimed.
It’s the cyclical argument where on thing depends on another, which in turn depends on another, and that the risk of failure to present in a very specific fashion, that make it impossible to escape the reasoning that requires the wounds be carefully created, before any action is engaged.
There is no question that GZ knew the rules he was breaking, and he was almost certainly aware of the laws he would be breaking as well. The only defense for doing so, had to be available at all times, since he could not know when the matter would conclude. He could not know when there would be too many witnesses for himself to make another move.
To do otherwise would be like going into a store an announcing a stick up, and hoping that you could find a weapon before you were challenged.
I believe he did stage his injuries, but the face injuries are a result of Fogen being an idiot and running into a tree branch or falling onto a bush. He was seen by witnesses to have fiddled with his head after killing the kid and he had blood all over his hands. He did a couple quick head scrapes on hisself. But it is irrelevant in the end how he got them, because it was not caused by the victim, Cheorge initiated the whole physical confrontation, he ended it by murdering a screaming kid, slandered the dead kid, and he has a history of violence, manipulation, and harassment which at this point is a habit now of Cheorge, and lastly, he was never in any danger of of great bodily harm and death because the kid only had skittles and ice tea and Cheorge had experience with violence and a gun and size and also an advantage in the fact that he is a sociopathic dementia
FBI reports
witnesses 47, 45, 51 , 46 , 48, 49 , Singleton, Taaffe & Santiago
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
Quick read thru.
Smith advised Singleton it might be self defense.
Santiago made the call as a supervisor for Singleton to meet Z at cop shop, not Serino.
OMG Taaffe is a nut job. All the problems in the complex are because of black renters and children playing outside.
HEY! That question to Singleton and saying it’s a sin for a Catholic to kill. If GZ was so spiritual and didn’t want to sin, why did he buy and carry a gun? That’s like saying fornication for a Christian is sin, but carry 8 condoms in his pocket and one on the chamber.
I like Singleton’s response, IF it was self defense like he claims then God would know. I like the “if” she put in front of it. I gather from reading that there was no more talk about God after she said that to him.
Xena, the image was too much for me. I fainted dead away. I bonked my head. I almost had a nose bleed. You’re sooooo lucky you weren’t here or I might have had to…
Just kidding. But I did get a high-adrenalin laugh!
LOL@Malisha.
Your analogy cracks me up, Xena!
Here’s GZ to Osterman:
“I’m Catholic. It’s a sin for me to kill. If you help me chose a gun and ShelLIE buys it in her name, then it won’t be my gun. It’ll be THE gun and I can kill with it and tell God it’s your fault.”
Good one Xena, lol…
LOLOLOL. I wonder if he handles his wazoo the same way he handles his gun? : }~~
@Two sides. You mean, take more time to aim than to shoot and after shooting, jump on the back of the other person? Yeah. Sounds like his thing.
I respect your theory LonneStar though it doent hold up for me on a couple of key issues….If gz plan was succsessfull an he encounters an actuall thug up to no good…So your scenario entails gz cornering his victim at gun point .Holding him till L E arrives where upon the thug whom probably knows the law better than gz is going to speak..He will say words to the effect ..This mo fo zz crazy Ive never seen the dude in my life.He jumps out from the bushed threating me with a gun.Gets all Rambo on my ass.Dudes covered in blood check me out down the Station a never laid a finger on him..An hell to the Z yes Im pressong charges on his crazy mofo azz…In order for your or his plan to work gz would still have to get into an actuall fight a fair fight for injurys to happen .To try an fool the suspect he had inflicted them..An gz would never risk a real fair fight with a genuine thug,,,He might have a weapon.
@colin black: : D So funny. Great black thug-talk.
Nope, if GZ doesn’t need the injuries, they’re superficial, he can just say he cut himself shaving and bingo they’re gone. The SPD isn’t going to bother with the word of a black, thug or no thug. If GZ corners a thug, or any other black for that matter, since he’s not a LEO, he’s going to need injuries to justify his approach, if he has not witnessed a crime.
You’re failing to see how the injuries, made at home to ensure they will be present, no matter how early or late things develop, cover him for breaking the rules and/or the law, if he has not witnessed any crime, but still wants to apprehend anyone. Less while carrying his firearm.
Oh, I see, you don’t have the order of operations right yet. GZ is struggling to get himself appointed to a new position that will very possibly open up, to patrol the neighborhood and earn a salary to boot. To do this, he needs to demonstrate his own capability, and he needs to do so fast, while discussions are in process. The HOA wants to pay the SPD to do this job, GZ wants it shifted to himself.
So, now that the back drop is in place. He has NW rules that prohibit him from carrying his weapon AND they prohibit him from following anyone he suspects. There are also laws that cover these matters, that would, under ordinary circumstances, prevent him from completing any task, such as apprehending any suspects, without having witnessed a crime first hand.
So, now, he wants to apprehend someone, but he needs to witness a crime to do it. So, even if he find a suspect suitable for apprehending, without any crime he can witness, he can’t even get close to the guy, no less detain him without breaking the law himself.
So then, let’s have a look at your scenario again. If GZ spots a thug, what can he do? Other than call it in, he cannot approach, he cannot hold the guy. If he did, he’d be guilty of committing a crime.
Now, my scenario. GZ has pre made head wounds. He spots someone he wants to apprehend, he simply grabs the guy from behind, they both fall to the ground as usually happens, GZ then has only to draw his weapon and hold the guy for the police. His justification? A crime! He was assaulted, it’s his word against that of his suspect, to an already biased police force. He has the wounds to prove it. Case closed! GZ goes home a hero! The suspect gets charged with assault and pleads out. GZ is the winner hands down.
That then is the value of having wounds prepared in advance, so he has the option of when, where and how to use them in his narrative.
These wounds become the necessary provocation for him to draw his weapon and hold/detain someone. The rest is just a matter of who the police will chose to believe.
@ Lonnie Starr. I don’t put anything past JZ. If your theory is correct, would’nt that be considered pre-meditated murder. If this could be proven, and I doubt that it could be, and if found guilty of this, JZ will not go down alone. He would sing like a jay bird.
It isn’t premeditated murder. I don’t believe that the plan was to murder, that’s not what GZ wanted. The plan was designed to get around the NW rules and the laws that should have prevented him from following and detaining anyone who had not committed a crime he had witnessed.
That’s an important distinction to remember. All GZ wanted to do was grab someone and hold them for the police, to show that he could be an effective protector of the neighborhood and therefore be hired by the HOA, instead of them hiring the SPD.
Murder was not needed or necessary, nor was it a desired result.
So, without these wounds, GZ would have no crime he could claim to have been committed, and therefore he’d be prevented by law from detaining anyone. Mean he can’t be heroic!
So he studies for a way around the law and lo and behold, he discovered that if he carried a head, already wounded and covered with blood, he’d have a claim he could use any way that he wanted or needed to. It would be his word against the word of a black, whom he already knew the SPD would not take seriously over his word, because they thought he was white.
If he grabs some black guy, all he has to do is claim that he was attacked. Then show his bloody head as proof, and his word will be taken over the word of a black guy, who GZ hopes also has a record.
So that’s the way the plan started.
In the end GZ realized that TM was just not going to sell as a thug, less one who had attacked him. If no one would believe that TM attacked him, then GZ would be facing felony charges. To preclude anyone from seeing TM’s manner and demeanor, GZ shot him to death. Thereby making his story a whole lot more credible.
Perhaps Fogen’s statement isn’t linked to pre-meditation at all, but simply indicative of a conversation that verifies his wish/hope/dream that he has his azz covered for self-defense.
Exactly, that’s the only way that his planned heroics could succeed.
So, he planned a catch and hold, but he had to cover himself against not having a good legal reason for doing so. Thus he needed a crime. One that could be explained in anyway that he found necessary, sort of a “portable” defense.
He could have planted someone’s tv or other valuables in the area, and tried to blame that on whomever his target turned out to be. But then things might not go down in a way where that would work.
How would he get fingerprints on the stolen goods? Too complex and too prone to error or discovery. But, with his own self wounded, he can explain that in a wide variety of ways, so they’re the basis of the ultimate cover story. One he can fashion as he pleases, and given the history of SPD on Black relations, it’s likely that any flimsy story will succeed.
With only a “grab and hold” and no homicide, it’s doubtful the case would attract much attention at all. So, the same powerful connections that worked for awhile in this case, would certainly have succeeded with no outside scrutiny. His target would either be charged, plead guilty, or held until the case was dismissed and he was released. Meanwhile GZ could bask in the glory of a job well done and have an aura of heroism to display before the HOA.
GZ, lilly-livered coward he be, could not accomplish this little plan, without the fortifications of drugs and drink. Leaving him unable to think critically or react normally. So he’s emotionally dead when he realizes this kid is so, way to childlike, to present, reasonably, as an attacker in life, so to avoid felony he kills him, so that the public will not be able to evaluate the child so easily as non violent.
Of course, GZ realizes that only buys him time. The questions he’s been asked have spooked him, since he has to realize a terrible record is building against himself with each interview. Against that back drop he realizes he has a second passport and fund to the website begin to pour in as the case gains notoriety. It looks like he’ll be able to effect a great escape. But too late, things begin moving really fast, and at the bail hearing, he winds up with a tracking device clamped on his leg, something he had not counted on. While he’s trying to figure a way out of this problem, his code is broken and his money moves are discovered, bringing the world crashing in on him again.
Go Lonnie! Go Xena!
Big Up! Let me get busy and pass this info around far and wide!
Thanks SouthernGirl2. Signatures are now up to 804.
I’m on it, Xena! I posted it on 3ChicsPolitico, tweeted it and I’m off again.
805 signatures now. Thanks for spreading the word. I know Lonnie appreciates it too.
You bet I do, thanks for all you do guys. We just might make 25k after all, wouldn’t that send some message!
812 signatures when I checked about an hour ago.
@Xena
I posted it on Click Orlando and the nuts are biting at me about it. I asked them to do this for your sons, grandsons, brothers, dad, uncles. It’s up to 837 signatures.
Whoo Hoo!
My thoughts are that he was setting up a “possibility.” It was the possibility that something like this could happen because from the moment he spotted this kid his intention was to apprehend him, catch this kid that was about to commit a crime, he was very sure of this. He got out of that car checked his clip made sure there was one bullet in the chamber & took off after Trayvon. When he did not see Trayvon he kept walking through, Trayon sees Zimmerman pass & feels the coast was clear to come out of hidding and head for home. Zimmerman spots him, comfort him, & they exchange heated words. Trayvon trys to walks off letting Zimmerman know that he have no intentions to answer anymore of his questions. Zimmerman Then try to physically detain him, a scuffle break out between the two, Trayvon escapes the scuffle takes off towards home With Zimmerman in hot pursuit. With gun now unholsteredhe catches up to Trayvon and Martin began Screaming for help because he can see this gun and he know what is coming. Holding the shirt in one hand making sure he didn’t shot his other hand he pointed his gun almost point blank from the top position over Trayvon and fired one time bullet going straight front to back. He had no other choice he had committed atleast 4 crimes against this kid ( stalking, assult and battery against a minor, false imprisonment, and brandishing a firearm while in commision of a crime.) Trayvon had to die that night, going to jail was not an option for Zimmerman.
Another site just picked up Lonnie’s Press Release.
http://beforeitsnews.com/press-releases/2012/12/citizens-petition-the-white-house-asking-that-george-zimmerman-be-investigated-for-violating-trayvon-martins-civil-rights-by-lonnie-starr-2649264.html
Excellent!
806 Trayvon petition http://wh.gov/IXcy
13 SYG petition http://wh.gov/52B2
672 proZ petition
ok this could be very interesting, reading it now,.. but it looks like there’s some things on GZ’s phone!!!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-fbi-new-evidence-20121204,0,7609897.story
Ok, when are we getting a new discovery dump?
Darnit! It won’t let me read it — keeps coming up with that stupid box for a paid subscription.
The Orlando Sentinel obtained the latest cache of evidence in the George Zimmerman murder case, including new details of Zimmerman’s interest in law enforcement and testimony alleging racism and sexism in the Sanford Police Department.
Federal Bureau of Investigation documents, part of an ongoing civil-rights investigation into the Feb. 26 shooting in Sanford, include interviews with Sanford police, Zimmerman’s neighbors and at least one coworker.
Some of those interviewed said they interacted with Zimmerman in the aftermath of the shooting. As in previously released FBI records, none of those interviewed said they’d known Zimmerman to behave in a racist manner.
The Sentinel obtained the records Tuesday from the office of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey through a public-record request. The names of those interviewed by the FBI were redacted from the documents, in accordance with a judge’s order.
Also in the latest evidence is digital copies of photos taken on the night of the shooting, showing Zimmerman’s injuries. One of the photos was posted on the defense team’s blog on Monday.
One witness in the documents is a former policeman who was a coworker of Zimmerman’s at the time of the shooting. Zimmerman was fascinated by the coworker’s law-enforcement experience, an FBI report shows, particularly a shooting years earlier.
The coworker told the FBI that he was working as a canine handler for a police agency when he shot a fleeing African-American suspect in the back in March 2008.
The former officer said he was fired at by the suspect first. He said he was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, but “was too young to deal with the stress that came with the shooting so he resigned.”
Zimmerman, the witness said, “was interested in the fact that [the witness] was so young and involved in a shooting as a police officer. [Zimmerman] became interested in the facts of the case and would talk to [the witness] about the incident,” according to an FBI report.
One woman, who has a vacation home in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, told FBI agents she had interacted with Zimmerman in his role with the neighborhood watch. A black woman, the witness described Zimmerman as respectful and mild mannered.
She said she emailed Zimmerman after the shooting, and he called from a number she didn’t recognize and “began telling her that what was being said about him was not true.” The witness later found an email in her junk file from Zimmerman, asking her “to give him some type of personal reference regarding his character.” The woman didn’t respond.
The FBI also interviewed Sanford police Investigator Doris Singleton and Sgt. Joseph Santiago about something apparently found in the “notes section” of Zimmerman’s cell phone. A note said “I have told you all everything that has transpired, do you really believe I would omit the fact that a narcotics officer guided me.”
The note, attributed to Zimmerman, goes on to say that his mother “feels the jury will be tainted” and an attorney “said not to make any comments as you did.” It’s not clear who the note was intended for.
Santiago told agents that Singleton was the only narcotics officer working that night, but he thought she “did a great job during the interview and did not see how [Zimmerman] thought she guided him.”
The report of Singleton’s interview by the FBI doesn’t document any reaction or response to Zimmerman’s note. She described her interview process, noting that she was told beforehand by a fellow officer that the case “might be self-defense.”
Some of the interviews shed more light on the Sanford Police Department’s relationship with the local black community than on Zimmerman’s actions or the shooting itself.
One witness, described as a senior project manager for the city, described the police as a “‘good old boys’ network.”
“For example, female police officers at SPD would not take the Sergeants exams because they knew they would never get promoted,” an FBI report says. The project manager also said that he’d heard officers were known to refer to African-Americans by a racial slur in radio communications.
The project manager and another witness described a stark divide in Sanford between the police and the black community, in which African-Americans complained of being targeted or neglected and officers described the black community as uncooperative.
Said the other witness, a lifelong resident of Sanford: “It is hard to be an African American male in Sanford and not have a criminal record.”
Also in the new evidence is an FDLE interview with a friend of Zimmerman’s, who said he recruited Zimmerman to work security at private parties years ago. At one such party in 2005, the friend was attacked by at least three assailants, according to the interview.
According to the friend, Zimmerman lost his temper because he felt the police weren’t doing enough to apprehend the attackers. However, the friend said Zimmerman didn’t threaten or harm anyone.
The friend described Zimmerman as a peaceful, “fun loving guy.”
The latest round of evidence contains numerous FDLE reports, documenting the agency’s investigative efforts, including canvassing Zimmerman’s neighborhood and nearby businesses.
Multiple investigative avenues, such as collecting surveillance video from the community’s clubhouse and local businesses, resulted nothing of evidentiary value, the reports show.
Prosecutors allege Zimmerman profiled and pursued Trayvon. Zimmerman says he fired in self defense after the Miami Gardens teen attacked him.
@Brown. Thanks for much for presenting the article here. Hmmm. Interesting indeed.
GZ was a criminal justice major. I try not to pick at words, (I’m not perfect) but there’s something about GZ where he communicates the truth within or surrounding his lies. Notice ….
The way he wrote it, he admits that a narcotics officer guided him in what he was to tell investigators. In the second part of his note, there’s a huge difference between “that,” “had,” and “if.” There is also a difference with ending with a period rather than a question mark. It would read:
“….do you really believe I would omit the fact had a narcotic’s officer guided me?” Or
“…do you really believe I would omit the fact if a narcotic’s officer guided me?”
I wonder what conversation GZ had with T. Smith, the narcotic’s officer, on their way to the police station?
We need a discovery dump!
Just click, “No.” The box goes away and you can read the article.
I did that. The box went away but the page did not provide the article. After 3 tries, I gave up. Thanks to you and Brown for posting it here.
🙂
copied and posted for you , Xena
Xena, delete your browsing history and cookies.
Sounds to me like the defendant left a note on his phone relative to a conversation he had with lawyers, which is interesting since it may predate the shooting. Could this be evidence of premeditation?
Don’t know, but we need to know when his phone was seized to begin to unravel what the note about the narcotics officer means.
From the article,
Don’t know if Mark Osterman ever worked narcotics when he was a deputy with the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office. He would be my first choice, if he did.
Second choice might be the coworker referenced in the article:
Correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t the Homicide Detective on vacation on 2/26/12, and that’s why a Narcotics Officer responded on scene. IIRC.
I thought Serino was narcotics
This all looks to be going towards premeditation
Well, it would seem to me that if he was going to apprehend anyone, he would need to witness some crime to get passed the legal and NW barriers to do it. A prepared wound does that nicely, since it can be claimed to be evidence of an assault that happened to GZ first. That way everything else gets swept aside and GZ emerges a hero.
Without the prepared wounds, GZ has no way to ensure that he will be able to obtain any wounds, let alone wounds that will not require medical examination, and a trip to the ER mean tox screen, and that could ruin his defense if he’s got alcohol and drugs in his system.
I don’t think he planned to go as far as a killing, since that would likely bring additional investigation. It only came to him having to kill, when he realize that to do otherwise, would be a complete and total failure. It would hardly take even a few minutes in Trayvon’s company, to realize that the mindset need to attack wasn’t there at all, thus, GZ would be left standing there with these wounds, and trying to put them on the hands of a child who was so obviously tame and helpless. He realized very quickly it was kill or be jailed! So he chose to kill and it worked for a while.
I’m understanding the sentence differently from y’all.
Here’s the way I’m understanding it.
1. Cheorge has told the others [whoever they are] “everything.”
2. Someone among the others [one of the whoevers] then queried Cheorge specifically on whether or not a narcotics officer [not named] had guided him.
3. Cheorge responds with a touch of irritation, asking, in effect: Hey, I told you everything. If [a narcotics officer] had guided me, do you think I would have forgotten to mention that? Give me some credit here, guys.
I don’t see it as Singleton. I see it as either T. Smith (if he IS narcotics) or someone else, possibly even Osterman but not necessarily.
I’m thinking we’re missing a key player here guys he’s talking about someone the family knows that is flying under the radar right now from us keeping up with the case.
Professor, I know u can not read into the future but how about a ‘what if’ thread. What will happen if GZ is not convicted, what will be your bloggers response and what will we, bloggers, think of the justice system and the status of the black/white divide in our great country.
Once GZ is found guilty and sentenced, I will move on to the Dunn case on my blog. There’s no what if about GZ’s case. I’ve looked into the future. George Michael Zimmerman will spend the rest of his life in prison.
Lonnie,
Well written synopsis although I find it hard to believe GZ purposely inflicted boo-boos before setting out to stalk an innocent kid but stranger things have happened so it’s possible. Maybe he got his butt kicked in a fight with SheLie before leaving his apartment so I’ll keep an open mind to your theory.
These are the things I believe about GZ.
I KNOW GZ is a LIAR.
I BELIEVE he did receive a call from Osterman alerting him to TM’s presence in the area. I believe since it was just after 7pm that the gates to RVC were locked and TM had to back track to find a different opening into the complex. This is probably what Osterman saw when he was heading to the bank. I BELIEVE GZ lived and breathed to impress Osterman and once he got that call he was surely not going to let him down. He’ll get this kid no matter what; Osterman will be so proud.
Let’s face it, even with all of GZ’s best lies, he could never top Osterman,. He’s an ex-cop, he works for HomeLand security, he’s everything GZ wanted to be but failed so I really believe that’s what motivated GZ that night.
It was GZ’s idea to set the stage when he called NEN. GZ has a gang mentality. In his bird brain, RTC is his turf and he’s Chorge, King of the Complex. He thinks TM is from the nearby neighborhood and if he kills one of these kids and gets away with it that he’ll send a message, Don’t mess with King Chorge. What else could Loser Chorge do to impress Osterman who’s planning his graduation party for a course he didn’t pass? He had to do something to semi-redeem himself.
If you try to imagine what GZ’s upcoming week was going to be like, you’ll see he has to do something spectacular in order to keep face in the community. It’s important to know why TM was so important to GZ, he had to something heroic and quick.
Not only was he facing colossal embarrassment, according to documents he was facing financial ruin. The $9,000 he recently received from a lawsuit which he spent buying hamburgers, guns and ammo for him and Shellie would have to be returned. He screwed that up and now he’s being asked to detain a suspicious kid and he’s going to screw that up too. That couldn’t happen so he did the unthinkable, shot the innocent kid and hoped that the kid was a throw away and no one would care.
Wrong again Chorge. TM came from a good family, his mother had a job with the state for over 20yrs and his dad was a respected truck driver and Mason. And I believe the fact that Chorge was using Adderall aka Speed intensified his selfish need to be a hero.
Trayvon Martin did everything right and everything that we teach our children when approached by a stranger. Run and if needed fight back. When GZ says he was reaching for his cell phone, I believe he was reaching for his gun. When Trayvon Martin saw the gun, he punched him in the nose, knocked him down and ran but Chorge got up and chased him as a witness claimed she saw, a “chase”. Trayvon Martin pled for his life to no avail. Screaming help, help.
GZ shot him anyway and now claims self-defense but Chorge was the pursuer. I don’t know how the laws work in this case but in my opinion, Trayvon had a right to be there and he had a right to defend himself from an unknown stalker carrying a gun. I don’t think the punch in the nose hurts the State considering the circumstances. GZ admits TM asked him “why are you following me?” That’s a logical question which deserved an answer. In all of the dialogue heard by witnesses,
GZ never explained to TM the reason he was following him. Un-freaking-believable.
IMO, this case is “open and shut” and King Chorge should be sitting in prison come Christmas 2013.
Great post.
Good analysis but the bump and scratch on his nose is on the right side of the ridge, which is inconsistent with what one might expect for a punch thrown by a right-handed person. Trayvon was right-handed.
I don’t think Trayvon hit him and I think the photo was photoshopped to make the injury, such as it was, look fresh and much worse than it was.
I do agree, however, that if he did hit him accidentally (perhaps inadvertently with his elbow or knee when they fell to the ground) or intentionally, he was legally justified to do so in self-defense.
For a long time, I’ve pondered whether GZ was in a fight or drunken stumbling accident days before the 26th, and acquired the injuries then. All it would take is picking at the scalps to make them bleed again. There’s the fact that when the EMT’s cleaned him up, they reported dried blood on his head and face which rather refutes picking at old cuts after killing Trayvon.
Less than 24 hours of what GZ purports to be Trayvon causing the injuries, the physician’s assistant noted that the cuts were already healing.
There may be a combination of having old wounds and new ones that happened during the wrestling.
I would also want to know if there were any recent and preceding unsolved black teens murders in the area
An update to links providing Lonnie’s Press Release.
Signatures on the Petition are now 800.
http://www.i4u.com/2012/12/trayvon-martin/be-petition-house-lonnie-martin-s-rights-george-starr-violating-tra
http://news.yahoo.com/citizens-petition-white-house-asking-george-zimmerman-investigated-082028442.html
http://www.onenewspage.us/topic/white_house.htm
http://news.silobreaker.com/trayvon-killer-pic-shock-5_2266164291004530779
http://features.rr.com/article/0cKcgCT4VCbJ3?q=George+Zimmerman
I have always thought that Trayvon’s murder was premeditated. I also think that GZ had help from others. I believe GZ had been watching Trayvon in the days prior to his murder. We will probably never know what really happened, but GZ has provided us with enough evidence to figure out what did not happen.
@type1juvesays”
Now THAT I DEFINITELY believe! That GZ had help from others. Frank Taaffe, Mark Osterman and Shellie lying for him but the first two? Yes. GZ had to have seen TM around that complex. He also saw him in 7/11 that night. I don’t think he wanted to kill a black kid, but he wanted to be a hero in the worst way. The only thing GZ accomplished is being a ZERO.
Following.
Lonnie’s PETITION: NOW 800
800! YAY 800 GO LONNIE!
shannoninmiami says:
December 4, 2012 at 1:06 pm
“he’s setting this kid up”
yes, that’s what i heard so clearly. so then you have to realise why. and you have to accept the worst possible truth, the most unthinkable. b/c there’s no other logical reason.
It did indeed soud like gz was setting the stage via bad bmovie script dureing his N E N call…The hand in the waistband something in his hand dont know what his deal was….So why did he contradict his fear of Trayvon dureing his interveiws…Instead of potraying fear he is sounding macho an defeiant saying he knew that Trayvon didnt have a weapon was bluffing….Why is he so limited in his scope to lie about the alleged attack at the T….Why couldnt he say the fight started there an then moved 50 feet as he initally tried to flee Trayvons onslaught….I know it was a dark rainy night but its almost as if the suspect is like the rainman….Deffinetlly attacked me at the T …Deffinetly messed my kmart underwear.Deffinetly looking for adresses not follow not follow follow bad word.An why does he think he can say one thing to LE an another to Trayvons Parents dureing a sincere apppolagy at his bond motion …He should have been done for lieing in court…Telling them he was unsure if there son was armed an also he thought he was just a bit younger than he was 28…………At that point he already told police he didnt think Trayvon had a weapon …An he referred to Trayvon being a teen dureing the N E N call also refered to Trayvon as A Kid….Dueing interveiw with police couldnt remeber how fast or what kind of run Trayvon used when he sais…Shit he s running…On Hanratty its ..He wasnt running in fear he was skipping???wtf…………The otherday when I read about the selling signitures crap..I honestly thought it had to be a sick joke .Couldnt be true even gz wouldnt stoop that low..Mind you I thought the same when I heard about the parents setting up a beeging site….They have no class no dignity no shame.
there is this possibility…and I said this from day one, that we done caught ourselves an honest to goodness malignantly crazy person.
the shame of it all that some people would like to put him back on the street because he only killed a young black individual and even that some wanted to do so not only without a warning, but having anointed him a hero…walking…preying amongst our unsuspecting children.
Malignantly crazy person! Tzar, YOU RULE!
MCP. A genuine, dyed-in-the-wool MCP. I love it — it says it all.
MCP. MCP Fogen. LOL!
oops this is supposed to read “even worse that some”
This post is just ridiculous, damaging to the credibility of this blog, and I can’t believe that it’s been given such prominence.
GZ bashed himself in the head and nose and got into his car bleeding on the off chance that on a rainy Sunday evening around dinnertime while everybody was home he might run into somebody he could kill?
I don’t agree with the premise either, but I see nothing wrong with discussing it.
I have to agree with you. This version of events is out there. But I do believe the cuts on George’s head were there before that night. I’m guessing that’s why his head was shaved.
We propose theories and we test them here by informed discussion. In this way we hone in on the truth. It is a methodology and, as you can see, not everyone agrees with all that he says.
We go about this process in a mutually respectful and civilized way, rather than an insulting and dismissive manner that wounds and helps no one.
@ Professor, If Lonnie’s theory is correct, that’s pre-meditatied murder is’nt it. If only it could be proven. BTW when something of this magnitude happends one does not take the blame alone. If convicted for this theory, GZ would probably sing like a jay bird.
No, it doesn’t have to be premeditated murder. If he started with a plan to detain his target and that’s all he actually intended to do, then this plan isn’t evidence of premeditated murder, it just evidence that he planned to accost and detain someone. The murder happened as an afterthought, when he discovered that his prey just wouldn’t present reasonably as the thug he needed to prove his worth.
Once he realized he’d gone through all this trouble to catch a teenager, who was just a really soft and helpless child, and he would appear that way to all comers, he realized he wouldn’t look very good for having “captured” a baby so to speak. Once he killed TM, then all people could see is TM’s size, and GZ could then attribute anything he wanted to him and no one could say otherwise, no matter how strongly they suspected against it.
That, plus GZ’s “portable crime” bloody head defense should have been all he needed to escape accountability. With SPD going along with him, that’s all he needed for the first 46 days, until the nation rejected the notion.
But the prosecution has all the evidence, I was thinking manslaughter but the evidence told the experts, murder 2, not murder one because they did not think, after reviewing the evidence that this was murder one. This was not planned, on being a murder at least. He may have planned to detain somebody but not murder.
…And there you go! Any plan to detain anyone, without him being able to show that he had witnessed a crime, would leave him charged with a felony.
So, if he plans to detain someone, he must have a crime he witnessed to show, so that he could justify his action.
He’s not a LEO so he has no right to chase and detain anyone, unless he can justify his actions by showing that he witnessed a crime.
So, if he had any plan to detain someone, he also needed something to legally justify his actions or it’s a no go. Cutting himself, just deep enough to have bleeding, but not deep enough to require a trip to the ER, satisfies all of his needs. Thus those cuts allow him to safely go forward with his plan. Without having to guess whether or not, he’ll get the opportunity to accidentally create these wounds later.
Once you understand the law and the NW rules, you’ll understand how these wounds are needed to overcome them.
The police offered several times, to have him go to the ER and have his “life threatening” injuries examined and documented. He refused. Why would anyone in his position refuse if the wounds were really obtained the way he claimed? Since, if that were true, then he couldn’t know how bad they were or were not. But, having committed a homicide he should certainly want to have the very injuries he was relying upon, to support his self defense claims, examined and documented.
“But the prosecution has all the evidence, I was thinking manslaughter but the evidence told the experts, murder 2, not murder one because they did not think, after reviewing the evidence that this was murder one.”
Erica, that’s not necessarily the case. Remember that the prosecution has to prove something “beyond a reasonable doubt” to get a conviction. So, not charging GZ with murder 1 means that they believed that their evidence was not strong enough to prove to the jury “beyond a reasonable doubt” that murder 1 had been committed. But, they still may or may not have believed that it had been.
@Professor Leatherman:
Off topic but whatever transpired with MOM getting granted TM’s school records? I haven’t heard a thing about this in weeks. I also agree with Lonnie on some points of his hypothesis. We must also remember that it didn’t matter that TM was immature, childish, and not in a gang of any kind. He was black in America, and black males are perceived as criminal inclined, brutish thugs. Why do the racists carry on so and believe that TM attacked GZ and not the other way around? Simple. Black males are brutes who perpetuate violence. It is easy to see why GZ thinks he can sell his story about being attacked first? Racists will believe his BS story.
I assume the defense has the school records and there isn’t anything bad in them, or we would have heard about it.
Pooh, that’s one reaction because the part about the self-injury on purpose preceding the events reported is without supporting evidence. But I think I see why that kind of thinking has come up. Knowing that there was between negligible and zero motivation for Trayvon to attack George, and knowing that Trayvon’s hands and sleeves did not contain George’s blood or DNA on them, and knowing that Trayvon did not have offensive injuries on his hands or knuckles to match George’s stories, one comes to realize that the “vicious beating by a violent 17-year-old” explanation for the minor injuries won’t fly. That gives rise to all sorts of speculation about how George received his little boo boos. Whereas I don’t think it matters at all how he got them (since he did not get the in the course of a potentially fatal beating administered by Trayvon Martin), the things that have happened in the case and the far-fetched speculations of the police, the defense, and the police-defense have given rise to yet more perhaps far-fetched speculations.
What happened that night, in detail explaining all elements, can never really be plotted out with any confidence unless George undergoes some kind of moral and psychological transformation and tells the true story. But we do know, without reliance on speculation or on far-fetched or closely-knitted theoretical guesses, what happened that night in enough detail to satisfy Florida law. Just as Corey stated in her probable cause affidavit:
1. George saw and profiled Trayvon;
2. George expressed his animosity toward Trayvon;
3. George pursued Trayvon and caused a confrontation;
4. George killed Trayvon.
His nose-bleed, his swelling, his blood rivulets, his capillary-type lacerations, his exaggerated and foolish fears, his excited utterances and silly outcries, all that whether TRUE or FALSE is irrelevant to the issues. Did he profile, pursue and kill the victim with malice or ill will? Yeah. Do I care how or where — or indeed WHEN — the wounds on his head and face were inflicted and by whom? Not in the least. The only thing that kind of question would lead to, logically, would be an analysis of George’s personal psychology. Was he mad because a kid disobeyed him and led him on a chase where he got hurt? Maybe. Was he worried he’d be blamed for the killing so he exaggerated his injuries to appear threatened? Probably. Was he innocent because he got hurt? Nope. Was his story about the beating credible because he had a bloody nose (maybe) and a bump on his head? Nope.
That’s all I think there really is in this line of inquiry. The issue remains: Did he kill Trayvon Martin with malice and without legal justification? I believe the trial (or plea) will answer that in the positive.
this is really a brilliant post
May I note here that there is evidence that the wounds were created before the incident. Remember the first photo of the wounds takes place only 2.5 minutes after the wounds should have been created. Yet, in that time there is zero evidence that the blood has not coagulated. But we know from science that blood does not coagulate in 2.5 minutes.
Random injuries should exhibit random depths as well as other random characteristics. These wounds do not display sufficiently random characteristics, enough to have been caused by accident. The mere fact that they are uniformly superficial along the entire course of both of these wounds, says that they were created by a hand using some craft.
Finally, only safe and secure possession of these wounds, ready for display at any time when needed, can assure and give GZ the confidence he needs to allow him to break the NW rules and the law with impunity.
Even after the NEN operator tells him not to follow, he still continues to brazenly follow. Why? Because he knows that he has these wounds to shield him from being called the aggressor. He has these wounds to prove that he was assaulted. He has these wounds that allow him to claim that he had to, at the very least, draw his weapon.
He could not act, and wait or hope that some wounds would manifest somehow at the scene. Because he could not be sure that, any such wounds, obtained at the scene, would meet his required specifications: be so superficial that they do not force a trip to the ER, yet deep and long enough to create a copious blood flow.
That the blood congealed to fast, is one piece of evidence that they were created earlier.
That the blood dried to fast is another piece of evidence that they were created earlier.
The fact that there is no evidence of any fight, is even more evidence that these wounds were created earlier.
The fact that the wounds are of uniform depth, is another piece of evidence that the wounds were not created as claimed.
The timelines and activities of that night, preclude the wounds from being created anywhere but before he left home. Where he had the peace and tranquility necessary to create these carefully incised wounds.
And finally, he must have these wounds in his possession, before he takes any actions, because he can’t know how things will go, and/or at what point he will have to display them as cause for what he intends to do.
Is GZ crafty? You bet, who would have thought to claim Trayvon’s screams as his own? Who would have thought to agree with the NeN operator, then continue to follow? Who would have thought to set up a website to beg donations, then have a second passport and start moving money beyond the reach of the court?
I submit, this man is no dummy, he has researched and planned for all that has happened except the actual kill. I believe that overtook him once he realized he had made a terrible choice for a target and had to silence him quick, or be revealed as a monster instead of a hero.
@Everyone
O’mara posted reports, Fbi interviews etc
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
@ xena
this is really a brilliant post
I haven’t posted anything — yet. LOL!
oh crap I meant malisha
Ok Lonnie you say 2.5mins after the incident. I think you should adjust the timing because the wounds to the back of the head probably happened at the beginning of the altercation, so those wounds would be more than 2.5mins old
But a lie, is a lie, is a lie! GZ claims he had his head bashed at the ‘T’ and then he drew his gun and fired. We know that after he fired one minute elapsed before the police arrived and the picture was taken before then. GZ claims one full minute of head bashing before he takes the fatal shot, so I’m being quite generous saying 2.5 minutes.
Okay, so that takes care of position 1. Now we must move to position 2. At position 2, GZ claims one full minute of head bashing, 40.5 feet south of the ‘T’, and again he fires the shot and the picture is taken before the minute elapses and the first policeman arrives at the scene. So I’m being quite generous once again.
With one minute of head bashing and 1 minute until the police arrive, the photo must be taken in less than 2 minutes after the wounds are created.
Please tell me how you arrive at a longer period of time?
I understand that all we have to go on are the self serving lies that GZ is telling, but for this particular exercise, I prefer to take him at his word. There are witnesses near where the body is found, there are no witnesses of the claimed altercation at the ‘T’. So, it isn’t really all that difficult to decide which one of these two stories never happened.
In fact, it the truth be told, it isn’t hard to realize that the head bashing never happened either! So, the question we should be asking is, where did GZ get these wounds that were so uniformly superficial, penetrating the skin of the scalp, only to capillary depth along their entire course?
He didn’t want to go to the ER to have his claimed broken nose examined and treated.
He didn’t want to go to the ER to have his claimed head injuries examined and treated.
But he did want to claim that these wounds were both serious and debilitating, such that he thought his head was going to explode.
And that he was hit in the nose with such force, that his nose was broken and he was flung to the ground where he lay helpless.
His biometrics show that the nights activities, including shooting and killing a human child, were as moving to him as ordering a second cup of coffee at Starbucks. While earlier in his NEN call, he exhibits slurred speech, characteristic of someone whose tossed back a few.
How fortunate for him that his wounds were so superficial in totality, that the medics could, in good conscience forgo demanding he be taken to the ER for examination. Thereby allowing him to conceal what could be more evidence, that could only reveal in a tox screen.
My, my, but aren’t we giving GZ just a tad too much leeway?
Great post Malisha!
@Lonnie, I’m not debating he lied because, yes he did, he’s a coward and a liar that doesn’t pick on people his own size, there is no doubt that he’s guilty but maybe not of premeditating a murder but he will go to jail and if he doesn’t, all he’ll will break loose.
The point that I’m making is; He cannot plan to detain anyone and do so within the law! Because to do so would be a crime.
The only exception available to him is, “unless he has witnessed a crime”.
So, if he plans to detain someone, he also need to plan to witness some crime! Because that’s the only way his plan can be accomplished without him being charged.
So, if he goes out on a hunt, without prepared injuries, he has to guess or hope that there will be time to create them when they are needed. That is not a reasonable idea!
The only reasonable idea that allows him to accomplish his mission, is to be secure in the knowledge that his injuries already exist and are ready to be used when needed.
To believe otherwise, is to believe that he went on a hunt, and left himself exposed to very serious criminal charges, for apprehending someone with no evidence of a crime with which to shield himself.
The two ideas must go together, if he intends to grab and hold someone, he must have a cover story that allows him to show necessity.
Lonnie, both the crime scene photo and the police station photos were taken later than you are claiming here. I’m not convinced that the depth of the wounds was that uniform – just that the picture quality isn’t good enough to detect differences. It is true that the wounds weren’t that deep anywhere. But I actually doubt that GZ was planning to get himself scraped up that evening. Most of the things that you cite as examples of GZ’s craftiness are devious, but not necessarly smart.
Any plan that tries to take into account any future eventualities can only be so smart. The rest falls to chance.
GZ started with a good simple plan, he would obtain notice that there was someone to catch, then he would give himself wounds that he could claim was evidence of an assault on himself, which would justify him holding that person, at gunpoint if need be, until the police arrived.
That’s the only way he could legally accomplish any plan to become the NW hero. Any other plan has risks that are simply too high to accept.
If the confrontation got really loud before he could contact his target, and therefore attracted lots of eyewitnesses, he’d have no chance to fashion any wounds. If he did that anyway, there would be witnesses to state when it happened. But, if he had them already with him, he could claim that happened before the witnesses came to view them.
Just to cite one variation that could go against him. Then too, he may have taken drugs and alcohol to fortify himself for the mission. He certainly would not want to go to the ER. Randomly made wounds at the scene could not guarantee to be so superficial as to not require the ER. Only prepared wounds could. They keep him in the greatest control for a very dicey exercise.
Oh Pooh, another thing. I don’t think he was looking for someone to kill. Rather I think he was looking for a chance to prove to the HOA that he needed to patrol with a loaded gun, FOR MONEY, as a JOB. Remember, someone at HOA had been complaining about him. And since September 2011 there may have been several calls to the police about his activities in the neighborhood that several people found dangerous and inappropriate. I think George definitely had incentive to have an incident that would give him credibility as a necessary armed guard protecting RTL. It would involve danger to George, screams by George for HELP, and the need for George to subdue someone by drawing his gun and dominating a criminal, AFTER having appealed to the police for help and not having gotten that help in time.
The action was supposed to illustrate George’s point: “You need me patrolling with my weapon.” It was not supposed to result in death but it would look very good for George to have sustained both injury and risk to have delivered to the community the kind of “protection” he was selling.
Remember that the Mafiosi in New York used to stage a few real scary robberies and shake-ups before they came around to businesses to sell “protection.” Shake-up always preceded shake-down. That’s what I believe George was doing on 2/26/2012; only it didn’t go down the way he had planned.
The Black kids from RTL already knew George and knew that he was nuts about “patrolling” so if he had caught one of them, they would have just waited until the cops came and let them go. He had “turned in” several of them already and nothing had been done to them. He got an out-of-towner!
I think George is a racist but that’s not necessary for him to be a murderer. I know it is theoretically possible he would have done this to some white kid or some Hispanic kid, but who cares. He did it to Trayvon Martin and so the police wanted to let it go and cover it up. George should have remembered the racist rhyme: If he hollers, LET HIM GO!
Malisha: “I think George is a racist but that’s not necessary for him to be a murderer. I know it is theoretically possible he would have done this to some white kid or some Hispanic kid.”
I think Chorge is a racist as far as certain classes of the particular race. I hope I am explaining this correctly but I think Chorge (and RZ Jr) have an arrogance or superiority attitude. So if Chorge sensed that a kid came from a poor background, he probably would have targeted them. I think because of his distorted point of view that night, maybe affected by drugs and/or alcohol plus his underlying mental illness, he wrongly targeted Trayvon as a lower class black person who he figured no one would miss, maybe because of hoodie. The only self-worth this loser had was feeling superior to certain groups, probably because of his family’s standing and connections, his father being a judge. Not a professional and I could be wrong but that’s my analysis of Chorge.
When George first saw Trayvon, he believed that Trayvon could credibly pass for the thug he so desperately needed for his plan to become operational. So, he acted on that assumption.
It was only when he confronted Trayvon, and had a chance to inspect his character and demeanor, that he realized that he had
capture a child so baby like, that his planned story of having to fight a life and death struggle, that his “injuries” were meant to prove, would not sell, if TM had lived to display these features of himself.
Yes, and he did it according to cops’ description to justify a “good shoot.” Based on GZ’s description of Trayvon and inferring that he could be armed, had the cops arrived before Trayvon got inside the house or GZ killed him, they would have proceeded with caution and probably shot Trayvon.
It would have been a “good shoot” based on GZ’s NEN call that Trayvon was “high or something,” had his “hand in his waistband” and “something in his hand,” and to give the impression of aggressiveness, was “checking” him out.
GZ had laid out a plan from start to finish that was disturbed when Trayvon ran. When he told the dispatcher that Trayvon was running towards the back gate, GZ didn’t drive around to RVC to see whether Trayvon had left the community. He got out of his truck and ran behind Trayon for a reason that played into his pre-conceived plan, whatever that reason was.
It had to take place THAT night. It was the last night of the weekend. That, Lonnie, is why your theory of self-inflicted injuries makes sense. GZ could not show up for work the next day with injuries and no explanation.
Hi , just one question in the LLLPapa video ‘Where ” it said the body was 63 feet away from the T anyone know if this is correct ?
I believe the correct distance is 40 feet
Thanks
Lonnie, you are smart and write smartly and with a vetted confidence. A lot of what this defendant is we are afraid to imagine, we think, “he can’t really be that awful? could he?”. My very first few seconds of listening to the NEN, I exclaimed out loud, “he is setting this kid up”. That left me with a serious problem, for my natural intimation to be true, I had to accept a precedence, I had to accept that this individual- having had him presented to me as an authority figure, a purveyor of safety, a captain- that he would be, could be, so reptilian, so petty, so predatory, so depraved.
Repeatedly they wrote and called him a captain. This is the kind of surreptitious, Machiavellian and downright sophisticated protection this killer had been afforded.
I agree, Tzar.
Here’s my take on it: I think Fogen did plan to “take a prisoner” that night but I don’t think he planned to “have to” kill him. I don’t think he planned out bloodying his head and face but I think once it went down, he “made the most” of little injuries and/or spread Trayvon Martin’s blood on his mustache and nose to appear very badly beaten. He does this kind of concrete thinking that reminds me of a kid caught raiding the cookie jar: “I was trying to keep it from falling off the counter and then the top got loose so I was putting it back on there because [someone else] told me he was gonna steal cookies so I had to stop him…” oh yeah, “and then a cookie fell into my mouth and it was gonna choke me so I had to chew it up and swallow,” and, “I’m hurt real bad, can I have some milk?”
Fogen had absolutely no reason to think he’d catch someone that night unless Trayvon was spotted by someone else first and called Fogen. Then he might have had the idea that he’d finally, finally, corner a punk who couldn’t get away.
I think he knew that he could not legally grab and hold anyone, without some kind of evidence of a crime to display to justify him doing so. Any plan to take a prisoner, would have to include a crime he could point to, or he’d be toast for doing so.
Since he couldn’t know in advance, what opportunities he’d have to create any justification, after he began executing his plan, his only other possible option, is to have the “evidence of the crime” made available in advance, so that it would be there to be used no matter what the circumstances turned out to be. All he would have to do is alter his claims of how he received these injuries, to put them out of the view of any possible witnesses.
While he has lots of options to explain away wounds if he doesn’t need them. He has no options to explain the absence of them, if he does something that requires he claim that the suspect attacked him first. He can’t know whether or not, that by that time, there might be too many witnesses, for him to create any wounds.
Following someone is one thing, but actually detaining them is a crime, if he doesn’t have a claim of some crime to defend himself with. Are you saying that you think GZ would simply go out and detain someone knowing that what he was doing was a crime? And his only explanation would be: I thought the guy looked suspicious? He’d be civilly and criminally liable!
“he’s setting this kid up”
yes, that’s what i heard so clearly. so then you have to realise why. and you have to accept the worst possible truth, the most unthinkable. b/c there’s no other logical reason.
I also thought it was a set-up and here is why. Trayvon reportedly was doing all of these “suspicious” things AFTER Chorge called NEN, events happening while he spoke to the dispatcher such as circling the car, hand at his waist, etc.
The question then becomes what did Trayvon do to prompt Chorge to call in the first place?
Great point! Trayvon did all these *suspicious* things AFTER/during gz’s call, so why did he call before???
Trayvon was walking while black.
To me this very notion is impeachment enough, to show such malice towards a child, an unsuspecting innocent, is vile.
I agree with Lonnie Starr, Shannon, jm and others that the phone call was a set-up. I also agree with Lonnie Starr that GZ was intoxicated.
However, I don’t think GZ pre-cut his wounds; he is too vain (dyed his mustache light brown). He has many tiny scrapes in his scalp and face– must’ve fallen into a shrub or tree or even St. Augustine grass with Trayvon struggling to get away, which enraged him, which is why he fired the gun.
The back of GZ’s head scraped something shortly before he killed Trayvon from an upright position, because blood flowed downward behind GZ’s ears.
Yes. It’s called, “set up by cop.” Zimmerman did it.
It’s nothing new.
Yes, GZ tried to paint TM as an unimaginably dangerous thug, in his body carriage, dress and actions. GZ could easily imagine TM with a deepening voice an a maturity approaching adulthood. Which would make him indistinguishable, to most prejudiced whites, from violence capable thugs.
Only when he had a chance to actually talk to him and assess his real demeanor and manner, was he spooked that TM was so terribly and obviously immature, that his claims of violent action by TM would not be, in the least bit believable to anyone who saw him alive. According to the persona GZ displays, of blaming everyone else for problems he, himself creates, he became vexed that TM’s childishness thwarted his own plans.
So there he was, with a baby like teen on his hands, inexplicable wounds on his head that would never sell as being from a fight with TM. He realized quite quickly that if he killed TM then and there, no one would easily be able to see TM’s immaturity, making his self defense claims believable. He had made another mistake, now someone would have to pay for it.
yup we discussed that over at FDL
but here was a neighborhood watch captain, seemingly with no motive to confront, reading the script verbatim. That took me by surprise.
I must admit that I have difficulty imagining that the defendant was clever enough to cut himself before the encounter.
Professor: “I must admit that I have difficulty imagining that the defendant was clever enough to cut himself before the encounter.”
Clever enough or even brave enough.
I can’t imagine Chorge anticipating he could actually use the excuse Trayvon bashed his head on the sidewalk but then Chorge is clever enough to fabricate a story on NEN of the suspicious black teen with his hand at his waist, on drugs, etc, etc, etc.
Who knows what goes on in Zimmerman’s crazy black mind and what he is capable of? I just want him in prison.
He may be an azz, but he’s not a clever azz.
LOL
Professor,
I have difficulty imagining Lonnie’s hypothesis….but have no doubt whatsoever that gz and friends had been watching Trayvon for several days before gz ventured out and ultimately murdered him. I suspect Trayvon was seen walking back from 7-11, and gz was notified, allowing him the time and opportunity to entrap Trayvon inside the R@TL housing project grounds
@looneydoon, agreed and this is why GZ’S cell phone records need to be combed over with a fine tooth comb. this defense team is treating this kid like he is the criminal in this case and, there needs to be a sstop put to the antics of O’money.
I don’t believe GZ injured himself advance either. At least not physically. I do believe that over time, he convinced himself that the SYG gave him the right to kill and eliminated any need to seek an alternative resolution. While practicing on the firing range, his minds eye convinced him he was shooting at a live human being as opposed to a paper target. I would also venture that he was the proud owner of computer games like “Mortal Combat” that he played on a regular basis. I would lay odds, that he had approached that T many times dung his NW rounds and thought about what he would do if a stranger appeared out of the darkness and approached him. He had predetermined that the police would not arrive in time to offer assistance, and might have even determined police response time in advance. GZ had made up his mind well in advance that he would shoot to kill if ever in a physical altercation while patrolling the hood.
IMO, on the evening of February 26, 2012, GZ followed Trayvon into the darkness as he allowed all of his preplanned actions to play through his mind. He was on “autopilot” which would explain some of his preoccupation during the NE call. When he came face to face with Trayvon, he had already made up his mind he was in a do or die situation.
I have no idea how he sustained his injuries, and only hope that Trayvon got in a few licks. Bottom line, GZ exited his car and headed down that path with a depraved mind. IMO, his affect and vital signs following the death of Trayvon, proves that he felt absolutely nothing after he shot and killed a teenager he imagined to be a threat to himself and the community.
Proving himself to be the “creepy man” that “DeeDee” described Trayvon describing.
I agree. If GZ actually planned all of this, I highly doubt he would have called police ahead of time. Why would he have the police come to the neighborhood during the exact time that he is trying to detain or shoot Martin? He surely wouldn’t want to risk the police seeing his illegal actions of harassment and false imprisonment. We do know that GZ was a criminal justice major so he should be knowledgeable regarding the law, regardless of whether he intends to abide by the law.
Assaulting a minor while armed
False imprisonment
I’m not sure what the penalty is in Florida for these crimes but he would be looking at severe prison time.
The reason he killed Martin:
Embarrassment and Prison Time.
Don’t forget that he had prior experience with response times and he never told NEN where he was in the neighborhood, so the officer en route did not know where to go to find him.
Little chance, therefore, that his encounter in the dark area between the buildings would be interrupted by the arrival of the cop, if he kept it short.
@Frederick
I’m just saying that if he planned to shoot Martin from the beginning, he would not have called police ahead of time. He would have been better off pleading for help and letting a concerned citizen call the police. I think GZ is very stupid, but not stupid enough to tell dispatchers that he is basically stalking his prey right before he is about to execute a premeditated plan to kill Martin. I think GZ ran into a tree or something to that extent. As far as I can tell from the legit photo, GZ had nothing more than a bloody nose as it does not look swollen. The legit photos taken after the blood was cleaned up prove that his injuries do not match up to the bogus story he has fed the public again and again.
Bill in JFK said it best:
“Susie, you’re an assistant D.A., remember. Stick to what you can prove in court.”
GZ didn’t know Trayvon would run, so he couldn’t make a plan on setting up a confrontation and pleading for help. GZ’s NEN call was a cop setup to justify a “good shoot.” Had Trayvon not ran, and based on GZ’s description of Trayvon’s behavior, the arriving cop would have been cautious and probably shot Trayvon anyway.
GZ had something that would benefit him either way. If he captured and detained or shot, he showed up the SPD for letting the “assholes” always get away. Good reference for employment with the police dept. If a cop shot and killed the suspicious guy, GZ would still be a hero for witnessing the behavior making it a “good shoot.” Good reference for employment with the police dept.
He was not that clever 1. He made too many mistakes. I have no reason to believe it was planned. Now other theories like, he didn’t act alone or he was coached or they moved the evidence are perfectly plausible but this…kinda extreme and, IMO, too far fetched with no, I mean, NOOOO proof are even possible proof that can explain this but if Lonnie is right, I will be the first to crown him king know it all.
I, too, think GZ is far too stupid to plan a pre-wounded noggin. BUT I find the drying times scenario very convincing. In wet weather there just isn’t the time for the EMTs to find DRY blood when they arrived such a short time later. Someone set up those scratches beforehand.
Sent from my iPod
Doesn’t my theory suggest to anyone, that GZ may have held brainstorming sessions with anyone, in his efforts to thwart the restrictive NW regulations, that wouldn’t even allow him to carry a weapon, less allow him to approach and question anyone?
My guess is that GZ would run his desires, to grab, hold, confront and interrogate suspects, just as LEO’s do, by anyone who knows the law, and can advise him of ways around these prohibitions. The Osterman Resource comes to mind. The artifacts that present, it appears, would come from FT’s consultations, which are more likely to produce the “crazy quilt” scenarios we see.
So, to solve the problem of carrying his gun, Osterman might suggest: Well, you could simply be walking your dog, and not on any patrol! While God only knows what kind of advice he could gain from FT, it’s still possible GZ would find something he said that was appealing. Most likely that blacks should be considered his targets, because that’s the easiest sell with the SPD, and “it helps the communities housing prices”. GZ and FT must keep their distances, because GZ knows that FT is an unreliable drunkard, while FT knows that GZ is a crazed LEO groupie.
Here is a link to the Yahoo News report with Xena’s press release regarding Lonnie’s White House petition.
I can see it, Lonnie. Also, if I listen to the NEN call again, it begins to sound like the voice-over in a drama. “I don’t know what his deal is,” says the documentarian. Dahn-da-dahn-dahnnnnn…
“He’s reaching his hand into his waistband…” says the documentarian.
You’re encouraged to believe that you’re hearing a tale of danger and criminality. “These a55holes, they always get away!” the reader/listener is advised, meaning, of course, “THIS TIME will be different and these a55holes will not get away!” Tension builds.
The narrator now needs both hands free AND he needs to complete his hero act before the 12-minute Officer Tim Smith trip into the neighborhood is completed. “Tell them to call me when they get here, OK?” he suggests. OK.
Now he’s free. Now he can draw his gun and proceed–
Dahn-da-dahn-dahnnnnn…
Great work, Lonnie.
I have strong doubts that GZ went out that night looking to commit a crime, even though you’ve come up with a compelling argument, but he’s certainly tying himself up in knots trying to explain one away . . .
I think he left intending to commit a crime but he didn’t consider it a crime. I think he intended to “bring in” his prey but he ended up killing his “prey” instead.
Okay gang, what you have to understand is, GZ had become a specialist in getting around NW rules and the law, to go on patrols, which he wasn’t supposed to do, by covering up with dog walking. And not carrying his gun on patrols, hey, they weren’t patrols, they were dog walks.
So, my theory is, GZ, finding a reason to need to apprehend someone. Also needed to get around the NW rules not to follow and not to carry a weapon, as well as the law for stalking etc.,
Having done a bit of work on the issue, because there was a possibility of pay in the offing, he’d only work at it that much harder.
My guess is his original idea was that if he could capture and hold a thug for the police to arrive, he’d be a hero… But how could he do it? The NW rules got in the way, so he could not be on patrol in anyway and still carry his weapon. Nor could he have his weapon on him, or even draw it, if need be, if he was the aggressor who had witnessed no crime being committed.
“Witnessed no crime” became the key focal point of his study. He probably ran it by Osterman and SPD officers, “what could I do if I had witnessed a crime?” That would be when the discussions turned to how he could defend himself if he was attacked. Most police officers know to make this claim to defend themselves for their actions. GZ figured a way to carry it one step further, were he to wear a prepared bloody wound, he could then claim that wound was caused by his suspects attack, problem solved. Then, now all he needs is a target, he’s scare the bejeezesus out of him, capture and hold him at gunpoint, then claim that his bloody head was the result of an unprovoked attack, which justifies him drawing his weapon and holding the culprit at gunpoint for the police.
Having carefully constructed this plan, all he needed was notification of a suspect, in time to prepare his wounds and get onto the chase. On 2/26/2012 everything came together and it was off to the races. Only at the last moment did he realize something had gone horribly wrong. His spotters had picked out a veritable baby boy for him to pursue, who was not a credible adversary! This probably resulted from GZ’s pestering them all to keep watch and report anything at all, so desperate was George to put his plan into operation.
Only after he caught hold of Trayvon and had a chance to see his demeanor, did he realize that, with this child as his adversary, he did not stand a chance of looking like anything but incredibly foolish and possibly dangerous as well. His planned future had been ruined, not by his own actions, mind you, but by his fool cohorts who picked a big baby kid, and by this kid for not being more mature! Everyone was causing George trouble, now he had to find a way out of this fix. In his drunken, drugged stupor, he decided the kid had to die, to make the rest of his story work.
So he shot the kid, attempted to munge the evidence as best he could, and repeat the story he’d fashioned to keep himself from being the stalker/aggressor. The drugs and alcohol calmed him enough to get the job done, but it also prevented him from thinking critically and/or rationally, and so he recited one of his prepared stories verbatim, that he had been attacked while attempting to return to his truck.
The wounds were not as fresh as they should have been, 17 minutes later when the medic found dried blood on him. They had already shown coagulated blood trails, in a picture taken some 2.5 minutes or less, later. How can bloody wounds and trails of blood coagulate in less than 2.5 minutes? How can blood dry in high humidity at 60 degrees in the rain, in under 17 minutes?
The answer is they could not, so the wounds had to have been created else wheres, at a place and time where they could be carefully incised, so that they would not require professional medical attention.
Those are critical key elements of this crime scenario, because if any one of these issue failed to perform as advertised, GZ would be under professional medical inspection and it would be documented that these wounds preceded the claimed fight.
In short, he’d be toast, much earlier than he was.
In his 2/2/12 NEN call, GZ told dispatch that he was NW. IIRC, he did the same in his previous call about children playing in the street. In his 2/26/12 NEN call, GZ said nothing about being NW. IMO, he left that out because he knew he was armed and that he was not going to let the “asshole” get away.
Malisha,
I agree with you. It’s my belief gz and friends had been watching Trayvon for several days. I think Trayvon was seen walking back from 7-11, gz got a call advising him of same giving gz both time and opportunity for entrapping Trayvon once he’d entered the R@TL housing project.
I believe gz was auditioning for a job, and was certain he’d receive great adulation from an adoring and grateful public…maybe even a parade for having captured a “criminal”.he could put on display ….a narcissistic need for approval/acceptance
The emt’s use of the words, “dried blood” was that person’s version of dried blood, it lies in the eye of the beholder, it could have meant, it was no longer dripping or whatever. The emt said 45 percent of his head was covered in blood but we don’t see that. It sounds absurd from the pictures we saw. I mean it all lies in the eye of the beholder
Hardly, there’s a reason that medical professionals and EMT’s are taught to use very particular language to describe what they see. Had they meant wet but no longer dripping, they call that coagulated blood. Dried blood means dried blood, where it has dried is very dark and no longer liquid or gelled. This is no passer by or lay person writing that report, it is a trained medical professional, not trained at the level of a doctor to be sure, but trained to observe and report accurately the details they observe in a language designed to accurately describe various conditions.
When an EMT arrives at a scene, there are times that they can save a life, but only by performing some function that is usually done by a doctor. A doctor will communicate the necessary information and instructions to the EMT using their common technical language and a life will likely be saved or further injury might be avoided. They cannot hope to accomplish such tasks if they can’t agree on the meanings of the words they’re using.
On this board, for example we are lay people, free to express our ideas in any way that we choose, and there is, as everyone can see, much room for misinterpretation. Technical people, required to get a job done, need very specific language, to ensure that communications are clear and understood. Thus they cannot rely on the arbitrary use of words as we can.
Lonnie do you think if Chorge’s nose was so enlarged and off-center as depicted in new picture on MOM’s website it would have been documented by EMTs. I mean it’s hard to miss the swollen nature and off center position so it would seem some EMT would have made note of the size and position of the nose and encouraged Chorge to seek professional medical attention in a hospital setting or at least advised the investigators of their concern of swelling inhibiting Chorge’s breathing ability.
If George’s nose looked like that, a trip to the ER would not have been optional, period! If the cuts on GZ’s head had been deeper than capillary, a trip to the ER would not have been optional.
EMT’s have responsibilities, they can’t just let injured people go wandering away when they’ve been called to the scene to make a judgement about injuries.
They have a little lee way to decide, but not if they see certain signs. They cannot expect an injured person to self diagnose.
They can only forgo forcing GZ to the ER, if they can see no signs of serious injury, and have no reason to believe that there are any serious injuries.
Yea Lonnie, I considered that but if u want to slightly over exaggerated then you would, I mean coagulated blood is a longer word to write and harder to spell, I know it sounds small and not professional but we know people in this profession tend to take short cuts and pay less attention to small details such as the report. They save lives and pay attention to their patients but when it comes to documenting details, they most certainly will take short cuts…but I’m not an expert, just my opinion
That’s an interesting theory that would answer some of the open questions.
Lonnie Starr ^ 5 ! That was a perfect and frightening theory! It is totally believable, and all that is left to say is…..Poor Trayvon 😦
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This post assumes far greater premeditation than I am willing to concede.. much tho’ I would like to assume it.
I think that it’s far more likely that, after realising that he had a corpse beneath him – or even possibly on top of him – and needing at least a self-defense plan (since he had NOTHING else to validate his actions) it wouldn’t have been a real big deal to bounce his own head off the pavement a coupla times, enough to create the mini-wounds that he apparently ended up with. Either way it cooks, there just isn’t any realistic way to make a bloody nose and some minor scrapes into “repeatedly slamming into a concrete pathway” or even assault.
I have to agree.. In one of the witness statements, (I forget which one) a witness stated that at one point she saw a man laying on the ground moaning/whining like he fell or something.. I believe either GZ fell or he was self inflicting some wounds in effort to come up with injuries to support his soon to be self defense claim..
I doubt it – he had no time to self-inflict wounds. He received all these either during pursuit or the encounter with GZ, IMHO.
Duh – *encounter with Trayvon.*
Duh – *encounter with Trayvon.* LMAO! I ran right into that one! What I mean is, a witness who lived close by the “T” described running, no fighting, no tussling, no struggle, then seeing one man laying on the ground moaning/whining…. Not two… IONO… (I DON’T KNOW) maybe I’m reading too much into it, but something aint right about that…
@Two sides to a story:
I agree with you Two sides, and I agree with Lonnie on some things that he has mentioned. I can see GZ forumlating some premeditation of ths scenario. However, I believe that the wounds were received during the pursuit and encounter with TM. I also believe that he formulated meeting up with TM. I believe he had seen TM before that encounter, perhaps in the neighborhood but I know that GZ had seen that boy, maybe even at 7/11 and then followed him.
I also believe that GZ was on patrol, but is saying he was not, because the NW program states that you cannot carry a weapon on patrol. Who goes shopping without carrying credit cards or money? I also believe that Shellie was with him and left shortly before the altercation. GZ in his twisted mind stated he had to shoot TM. GZ stated that he had to shoot TM before it was to late. To late for what??? For LE to inervene? So he could shut TM up and stop him from snitching on him and telling LE what was going on? He knew that LE was on the way, and TM was screaming and begging for his life. TM would have informed LE that GZ had tried to detain him, and was abusive to him asking him questions and interrogating him and wouldn’t let him go. GZ knew that he would be held accountable for trying to detain a minor, and he figured he could lie and cover up his actions with the help of his LE friends, Wolfinger, his dad, and others, and why not? He almost got away with it too. If this was 1945, he would have gotten away with it. NUFF SAID!
You are not willing to concede that GZ had been at work, formulating plans to overcome the NW rules and other laws that might apply? I would beg to differ strongly with that assumption. The evidence in this case, well shows that GZ had very often employed ruses to disguise his Neighborhood Watch activities as not NW activities at all. He’s not supposed to go on patrols, as per the NW rules, so he walks his dog instead, a ruse that allows him to carry a concealed weapon as well.
Had he admitted that these were actual patrols, he would have been required by the rules he knew, to leave his weapon at home. His “friend” FT also claimed to have gone on patrols, yet, he has received no instruction about NW from GZ. GZ keeps no records of who is on his NW “trees”, people who have consented to call him, if they see anything suspicious happening.
The evidence shows that GZ has struggled mightily to find way to exempt and excuse himself from the NW rules and the laws that prohibit his conduct. So I don’t find “premeditation” to be a far fetched assumption at all.
I also note that you jump from him not “premeditating” to him “finding a dead body beneath him”. But that’s not how it went, there was much that happened twixt leaving home and then, that is evidence of him having various matters to consider and solutions to offer for them.
Lastly, “Bouncing his head off concrete a few times”, do you really consider that such an act would predictably deliver wounds, that would be within the required parameters? How hard does one need to bounce one’s head on concrete to draw blood? How do they do it, in such a way as to guarantee the bleeding wounds will be completely superficial? Remember, a deep gash will require the medics to insist that he go to ER, where he will be subjected to professional medical examination and tox screen.
And, as if that weren’t enough to falsify your conjecture, consider that his wounds would then be fresh, and there would be none of the dried blood on him, that the medics testified they did, and the pictures show was there.
GZ did not, just find himself on top of a dead body. He decided that his best course of action was to kill TM, so that TM could not put the lie to his claims of a ferocious fight. One of the most recognizable characteristics in human experience is that of the harmless child. Trayvon exhibited that in spades while alive, such that it could not be overcome with mere words. Even GZ was able to recognize that. He, therefore, feared that if TM exhibited against him making his wild claims, he would be the ultimate loser. He fired the shot to preclude that, and take a chance at saving himself from a very long prison term.
That action worked wonders for a while, as evidenced by the subsequent police investigation flaws and foul ups, and the 46 days it took for national attention to culminate in an arrest.
Hardly “far fetched” meanderings I’d say.
I don’t think he had those wounds before the encounter because I believe blood would have been on his clothes unless he changed clothes.
I think they’d do it at home, with a towel or cloth wrapped around his neck. The blood would begin to clot in about 5 to 6 minutes and he could go out on the hunt. Later it would only take a rub to get the blood flowing again. But, since it’s behind his head, he would not be able to control how much he picked up on his hands, so they might get pretty bloody.
In any event, we know he didn’t press down on TM’s back with bloody hands, so his hands had to pick up the blood, sometime after he separated from Trayvon’s body. Which is evidence that he restarted the blood flow. Kind of incriminating eh?
But what about those police station photos, it looks like dried blood to me but we didn’t see that much blood when he arrived, I am trying to understand why was he still bleeding with no blood on his clothes at the station, doesn’t make sense
Lonnie, I think your hypothesis about GZ’s wounds is rather far-fetched. The most obvious problem is that he didn’t know that he would find a “thug” walking around that evening. If he couldn’t find a suitable “thug” for even a couple of days, it would be obvious that he had healing scabs and not fresh abrasions or lacerations. In addition, I don’t think that he was the type to plan things out that meticulously. I also think that he just wasn’t observant enough to pay attention to Trayvon’s lack of thugly demeanor. I think Creepy Guy was hoping to round up a black thug for the police, and things got out of control and impulse control problems kicked in.
I agree with you that it is likely that Creepy Guy had, in advance, worked out excuses to explain that he wasn’t really out patrolling, and therefore it would supposedly be OK that he was carrying his gun.
gblock says: “Lonnie, I think your hypothesis about GZ’s wounds is rather far-fetched. The most obvious problem is that he didn’t know that he would find a “thug” walking around that evening. If he couldn’t find a suitable “thug” for even a couple of days, it would be obvious that he had healing scabs and not fresh abrasions or lacerations.”
Hee, hee, hee… Do you really think I proposed that GZ, injured himself, then sat around waiting for someone to spot a thug and call him? Wouldn’t that be like saying I was insane? 😀
No, he got a call that there was someone out there, and he was waiting, desperately for a target, because he needed to perform some act of heroism, while the HOA was still hot on paying someone to protect the community. He was hoping a show of heroism would make him the choice over the SPD.
But, the trouble is, if he was going to apprehend anyone, it would be against both the NW rules and the law, for him to approach them, and even less armed too boot.
Any plan that supposes he’s going to try to catch and detain anyone, will fail if he doesn’t have a crime he witnessed, to make apprehension while armed legal.
So he has two choices: Either create the wounds himself, and know that they are not going to require a trip to the ER, but will be there in time, no matter what happens. Or, he can leave home without them and hope to acquire them by design or accident while out there in the field. In which case, he has to hope there will be time to create or obtain wounds and hope that they will not be too serious and require a trip to the ER.
Which choice makes the most sense?
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You say further:
” In addition, I don’t think that he was the type to plan things out that meticulously. I also think that he just wasn’t observant enough to pay attention to Trayvon’s lack of thugly demeanor. I think Creepy Guy was hoping to round up a black thug for the police, and things got out of control and impulse control problems kicked in.”
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If GZ wasn’t a planner, then he would not have thought up the trip to the store, to cover up being notified. It is lack of proof of notice, that makes it hard to believe he would create wounds in advance.
But, we know from the way, the only vehicle to travel RVC to TTL in the right time frame, moved around, that TM was not spotted by FT’s cut through, nor was GZ headed for the store.
We know this because there was nothing for him to see, along his route to go out the front gate. Yet he doesn’t even attempt to go out the front gate. Nor does he stop near FT’s cut through, as is required by his narrative of things he claims happened at that location.
At FT’s place, GZ describes activities by TM, that would take 5 to ten seconds to view. Something he could not do at nearly 40 feet per second, on a road bending west for a sharp right turn in the rain.
To see what he describes there, he would have had to stop and watch. Tchoupi finds no light events for this activity. The only vehicle that comes through there, does so while TM is already at the mail boxes.
Lastly you say that he’s hoping for a black thug, which I agree with. But then, what does he do from there? If he finds one and grabs and holds him, then he’s committing a felony himself. To avoid this, see up top again.
Had he bounced his head off the concrete a couple of times it would have looked much different. Anybody who watches those forensic crime TV shows knows that. You know the ones — they have gorgeous women and handsome square-jawed men solving crimes by looking at autopsies and finding little mosquito paws that are only found in one square block of Alamogordo New Mexico. Bashes to backs of heads looks like bashes, not capillary-type lacerations.
I agree.
I dont believe his 1/4 inch back head scrapes are sidewalk head bounce injuries, especially multiple times. I believe Cheorge staged those injuries after murdering the kid because he was seen fiddling with his head after the encounter, and the wounds are ultra minor with minor bleeding. It would also explain why Cheorge had blood all over his hands yet Trayvon had no dna deliveries from Cheorge on his hands or sleeves, which means the kid never attacked Cheorge at all.
I agree. Selma, one of the witnesses stated that his was placing his hands across his head, scratching his head as if he knew he had just screwed up. TM had none of GZ’s DNA on his hands. The more I read of this, I am becoming enraged again!