I was disappointed, but not surprised by Judge Nelson’s decision denying the State’s motion for a gag order.
Instead of considering the possibility that Judge Nelson might or might not grant the gag order, I spent the weekend, plus Monday and Tuesday, thinking about the possibility that the defense is attempting to rig the outcome of the Zimmerman case with its aggressive effort to try the case in the court of public opinion. For reasons that follow, I worry that Judge Nelson and the prosecution may have underestimated the potential for abuse represented by the defense effort to win its case in the court of public opinion.
In this article, I propose a theory or possible explanation for the unusual defense effort to aggressively present the Zimmerman defense in the court of public opinion without fear that the prosecution will respond and participate in a meaningful adversarial manner. For example, the theory I provide would permit the defense to claim that Zimmerman acted in self-defense and rely on his inadmissible hearsay statements instead of calling him as a witness and subjecting him to cross examination.
The defense also could solve the serious problems presented by forensic evidence that refutes or is inconsistent with Zimmerman’s hearsay statements by simply ignoring them without fear that the prosecution would do anything.
The defense is not likely to request or agree to a change of venue and the prosecution probably does not have a right to a change of venue.
I believe the defense has been pursuing and will continue to pursue a strategy designed to try its case in the court of public opinion, rather than the courtroom.
The strategy serves three important functions by
(1) keeping the case in the news;
(2) anchoring the defense theory of the case in people’s minds via repetition; and
(3) weighing the importance of the evidence in relation to whether it supports the defense theory of the case.
Meanwhile, defense control of the message generally goes unchallenged because the prosecution rarely comments.
Nevertheless, the prosecution’s silence probably has not damaged its case in any significant manner because Zimmerman’s statements to police are in conflict with the physical and forensic evidence and inconsistent with each other. Also, who will ever forget Zimmerman’s appearance on the Sean Hannity Show when he denied feeling any responsibility or regret for killing Trayvon Martin because his death was due to God’s Plan.
Given Zimmerman’s ongoing and potentially catastrophic damage to his case, I have been struggling to figure out why the defense has been so determined to try its case in the court of public opinion. That is an extremely unusual strategy for the defense to use in any criminal case. Imagine how different the case would appear to be, if only Zimmerman had asserted his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.
Let us assume for the sake of argument, that the defense had a legitimate reason to try the case in the court of public opinion. What might it have been?
I suspect they may have assessed Zimmerman’s chances of winning the immunity hearing or the trial as unlikely, given the physical and forensic evidence as well as as his inconsistent and conflicting statements.
If that were true, I can visualize them concluding that Zimmerman’s best chance to win, given the percentages of prospective jurors in Seminole County who are going to be White, conservative or racist, would be to try to win the case in the Seminole County court of public opinion in hopes of seating at least one or two and possibly all six seats on the jury with people who fit into those categories.
Even if they were to succeed in seating only one such person, that juror might vote “Not Guilty,” regardless of the strength of the evidence against Zimmerman.
If that were to happen, that would be an example of juror nullification based on racial prejudice.
For these reasons. I am recommending that we consider and discuss the following theory.
The defense strategy is to aggressively try the case in the court of public opinion in Seminole County in order to maximize public support for Zimmerman among White radical-right-wing conservatives, in hopes of seating at least one and possibly more of them on the jury.
+++++++++++
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: The Targeted Use of Propaganda to Influence Prospective Jurors Before Trial Should be Prohibited
To anyone out there –
When OMara submitted the motion for sequestration of LE – it was on the gzlegalcase website. However, it was removed prior to him handing samples of the website to the good Judge Nelson. I firmly believe, had she seen it, gagging O’Mara would have been the decision. Not gagging the press — just MOM, his firm, employees, etc. I wanted to let the Judge know, but did not know how to contact her to let her know there was the omission.
I hope someone knows how and will send the information to her.
Do you have a screen shot of it?
I also think that Angela Corey and her team have done an extraordinary job in this case – given the corrupt, poisonous and extremely volatile state of affairs that led to her appointment. Corey has shown outstanding courage in getting the crippled heavy wheels of justice decisively rolling and closing in fast on Zimmerman. When the hateful crusade led by Prof. Allan Dershowitz to destroy her professionally was at its peak, Corey let everyone know she is one tough old lioness that ought not be messed with. Prof. Dershowitz has since crawled back to his hole in Harvard with his tails between his legs. Above all, she embraced Ms. Sybrina Fulton, comforted her and PRAYED! with her (and Dershowitz will never forgive her for that) at her most difficult of times. That’s the type of compassion that is almost never accorded to victims of the ultimate crime and their family members. In a nutshell: Mrs. Correy has everything you would want in a prosecutor: brilliance, prudence, dedication, courage and compassion.
I don’t know about that. Corey concerns me big time.
Pls. feel free to enumerate the ground(s) for your concern(s).
Well, about her praying with Sybrina Fulton, I think she HAD TO do that, so she could check, and make sure that the killing of Trayvon Martin had not really been God’s Plan. I mean, had she prayed with Trayvon’s mother and heard:
“Angela, this is God. DO NOT CHARGE GEORGE WITH A CRIME. What he did was all my Plan! Who do you think you are to override or question MY PLAN?”
she would have given George a “no bill” on the spot.
I have several associates who work in the Feds and police dept who are highly familiar with her they are in los angeles. I don’t say much about it but she does things for political purposes as many do. Zimmerman will get off and the only way for the Martin family to win is in civil and federal court. Florida is a corrupt state all the way around. I don’t live there anymore. Thank goodness…
Justice for trayvon all the way… I pray Corey is doing it for true justice. They are so politically corrupt you just don’t know. These states are tied in together.
I hope you’re 100% right about her. I know she’s good. I’m not sure exactly where she’s headed, and I think a lot depends upon the FBI’s evaluation of the SPD and Wolfinger. But I’ll give you this: Corey was exactly the right prosecutor to appoint to wade through all the mess and come out with the actual significant points involved in the actual charge she brought against GZ. I’d like to see her in court a bit more.
Lets pray Corey comes through for justice.
I feel Corey will do fine. The defense attorney for Marissa tried the same media trial stuff and it did not work out for her because in the end the truth was she shot at the kids and the adult male and almost shot them plus there were worries of the ricochet hitting the kids and the adult male. I will see if I can ask but I am sure she will be there to overlook because she was there for many of the earlier hearings for George.
@ roderick2012
O’Mara may not stop the trial from starting because of some fantasy-evidence in some fantasy-land he is in pursuit of, nor could he claim with success that ‘George was not allowed to obtain pertinent info for his self-defense claim’ because the trial was not delayed until his pursuit of his fantasy-evidence has run its course. As you may recall, the Court green-lighted all of O’Mara’s subpoenas. As such, the Court allowed O’Mara to obtain whatever evidence he deems fit for an effective legal defense of his client. Whether or not O’Mara makes an effective and efficient use of the powers/opportunities granted to him is beyond the control of the Court. In any case, O’Mara may not delay the trial because he is engaged in a legal battle with FB in a wanton effort to obtain evidence he (O’Mara) does not even know if it exists, and, if it does exist, what the content is thereof. Any SYG-/self-defense Motion in this case must be filed- and heard before the 26th of April 2013. That date stands – baring a tsunami in Florida.
I think the main thing to remember is that all O’Mara’s yelping and whining and all the motions practice and all the gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair in the press and on-line will have no (as in zero, as in none, as in “much less than negligible,” as in “uh-uh”) effect on the following:
1. NEN recording;
2. Timing and geography of the “meeting” of George and Trayvon;
3. Lack of serious injury to George;
4. Lack of defensive wounds on George;
5. Lack of any assertion by George that he behaved normally when the “meeting” took place;
6. A single word [not given here so as to avoid tipping off defense team] that destroys a lot of the story [NOT “coon” or “punk”] (please, no on-line guesses about what word I am referring to)
7. Angle of the bullet;
8. Physical evidence of how the bullet entered the body;
9. Placement of the body at time of arrival of police;
10. condition of George’s shoes and jeans;
11. statements made by George after the killing; and
12. Position of the shell casing.
No amount of pre-trial publicity about big bad Black lawyers, terrible anti-white racism, God and/or His Plans, SPD police, Wolfinger, FBI, or anything else will change the dozen elements of the crime that cannot be erased, defaced, removed, assailed, marginalized, modified, wriggled or shimmied out of existence, or otherwise dematerialized. You follow those 12 pieces of evidence and you get Murder-2, PERIOD.
Judge Nelson is no fool; she knows her job and she has promised she will oversee the empaneling of a fair jury and I take her at her moderate and careful word.
Malisha says: “Judge Nelson is no fool; she knows her job and she has promised she will oversee the empaneling of a fair jury and I take her at her moderate and careful word.”
I don’t thnk Judge Nelson is a fool but she is an elected official and when politics come into play, I trust no one. I don’t know much about Florida politics or if Judge Nelson is Republican or Democrat and/or how her handling of the Zimmerman trial could affect her reelection.
With the public sentiment being what it is and the scrutiny that has caused some Republicans to back up from Romney all the while that some Democrats have backed up from Obama, I think Judge Nelson will play out as fair and square, nothing more and nothing less. I don’t think she’s angling for anything other than a fair trial.
Oh I won’t deny that. If it were to do her good politically to do calisthenics for a year or two and then help the prosecution throw the case, quite possible. But I don’t see that in her so far. So far she has ruled with the law and been pretty clear. That crap about the twitter stuff and all the other stuff she gave the defense the right to subpoena — she has NOT ruled that any of it is admissible. I think they’re barking vigorously up a tree that is not growing in Judge Nelson’s yard. When she sees all that there is to be seen, I’m betting she will say, “Thank you. None of this is relevant.” And then — although justice delayed is justice denied — there will be some music for Zimmerman to face.
PS: I don’t believe ANYBODY can make themselves politically powerful right now by taking up a sword for Zimmerman. No politician in the country has tried it and none will. Hannity tried it and he didn’t even get much of a “boost” — I hear his consumption of Viagra has not gone any down since he had George and O’Mara on with him!
Both Romney and Obama publicly backed an investigation into the tragedy
Brilliant, Malisha. Excellent post. Honestly, I expected you to make these arguments in rebuttal of my previous post above on November 1, 2012 at 7:22 am. That post, I guess, got CherokeeNative upset. I am glad you finally did rebut. IMO, there two lessons to be learned from this particular blog from Professor. The first lesson is: the defense can spin/try this case in the media any how- and as long as it wants-; Robert Zimmerman Jr. can go on race-tours as long as he wants-; O’Mara can contract all the heavy-weight black lawyers in the US to do his dirty race-baiting, BUT the evidence in this case against Zimmerman will always remain the same: Trayvon was NOT on top of Zimmerman when Zimmerman shot and killed him. On the contrary, Zimmerman was on top of (an immobilized) Trayvon when he executed him, etc. That fact, inter alia, will never change. THAT fact, which IMO is the strongest evidence in this case, sealed Zimmerman’s fate – even before the trial. The second take-away for me is that we (i.e. ALL the participants on this blog) are capable of stepping into the shoes of the defense, feel like the defense and (try to) think like the defense (without losing our perspectives). That catapults us straight into the head of O’Mara. Thus, we know what the defense is/may be thinking and why. We re-examine our own positions and strengthen them if necessary. The defense becomes even more transparent and predictable and we are better able to assess its strengths and weaknesses.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, SearchingMind. I’m with you completely. Not being terribly well educated in the subjects of physiology and physics, however, I’m not sure whether George was on TOP of Trayvon when he shot him or was standing opposite him, holding him by the hoodie. I’ll ask my son if he can analyze that and get back to me; he’s pretty well educated in both physiology AND physics. 💡
@ Malisha and Searching Mind –
Based on GZ’s description of how Trayvon was supposed to be on top of GZ (such reports by GZ of how he was treated ALWAYS ending up being the reverse – it’s really how he treated the other person), the grass on the toes of GZ’s boots, and the bloodflow across his scalp in the photo taken right after the shooting, I have always believed Zimmerman was kneeling on Trayvon’s arms to immobilize him (hence the long screams from pain), clutching the shirt, and fired.
Then (because Trayvon was found face-down), Zimmerman quickly searched Travyon’s waistband for a weapon, moved one knee off Trayvon’s arm and raised his other knee so he could roll Trayvon over (the term I always used was “flipped”), ran his hands over Trayvon’s waistline in back (checking for a holster/weapon) then over his back checking for an exit wound.
No witnesses ever saw Trayvon or Zimmerman standing, it was always “grappling on the gound.”
Immediately after the shot witnesses saw Zimmerman handling the body then rise from the body.
But the blood-flow across the back of Zimmerman’s head, across his cheek into his beard may not make it as evidence, since the photo was recovered later and outside the chain of evidence. The Sanford PD photos at the station showing grass on the front tips of the boots maybe what decides this.
Keep in mond that analyses requested were blood/DNA and fibers.
The story the fibers have to tell has not yet been released.
Malisha, with many of these things, I have to admit I would defer to people with more informed minds than me. Which may result in me being much less convinced of success, at least not at this point in time.
Just as you the little blood rivulets don’t convince me, but they seem to convince many, including Jonathan Turley, if I remember correctly.
And yes, after listening to his “non-emergency-call” several times, I heard him clearly say something, I am not supposed to hear. But, what comes to mind, in this context is, I never took a close look at his specific phonological pattern concerning his use of “g” “c”. Punks, cold and whatever else variants make no sense to me, if I am not to completely mistrust my ears. I don’t quite understand, why Diwataman convinces me visually but not acoustically, admittedly.
With 9 you mean versus how he described the placement in his reenactments? Strictly, I can imagine a defense strategy.
I would be absolutely pleased about elaborations concerning 9 and 12. I admittedly never thought about that,, though.
I disagree about the Judge. I don’t trust Corey farther than I could throw a grand piano on a rainy day but I trust Judge Nelson.
Zimmerman is going to do significant time in prison if he doesn’t run first.
I hope he does. Lets keep our fingers crossed. so many people are in it for a different motive. fame and fortune hopefully Trayvon will not be forgotten.
@Malisha, why are you singling out Corey?
Although I believe Corey’s initial news conference was overly dramatic and that she was full of sh!t, now that Judge Nelson has joined the case I can clearly see that the entire process as corrupt and rigged.
Judge Nelson opened up the indefinite postponement of the trial when she granted O’Mara access to Trayvon’s Facebook and Twitter accounts. Although O’Mara did it at the behest of the Conservative Tree Scum Suckers, the judge and the prosecution have to have known that Facebook’s policy against releasing information about an account would allow O’Mara to claim that George was not allowed to obtain pertinent information for his self-defense claim.
I don’t see either side willing to plea bargain because O’Mara and George owe too much to their donors and fans and the prosecution and state don’t want people to remember Florida as one of the more corrupt states so they will allow O’Mara to delay this trial indefinitely it fades .
I posted before I had made an important point.
I beleive that George is having a lot of issues and may commit suicide at some point in the near future.
The only question is will he take someone with him and who will that person(s) be?
roderick2012 says: “I beleive that George is having a lot of issues and may commit suicide at some point in the near future. The only question is will he take someone with him and who will that person(s) be?”
Although GZ appears to have major issues from his physical appearance, I don’t think he is capable of taking his life. I believe his issues are why he appears heavily medicated and his family is on their anti-racist media tour. They thought they could get over on the local police department but now the FBI is looking into GZ’s background and he pretty much hung himself with his NEN phone call when he profiled a young black male as being suspicious who he followed and killed.
I think GZ will stay heavily medicated the rest of his life in prison.
I’m not singling out Corey. I was just saying I wouldn’t put it past her to go along with a program that wasn’t 100% what the “moral compass movie director” wants for the ending of this mess. To me, the under-performing of a prosecution team COULD be a general plan to allow for a plea deal to go through but of course, we don’t have all the data.
I don’t fault Nelson for her allowing these dilatory tactics on the part of the defense. She’s heading inexorably toward a decision that cannot be overturned. You have to (a) give the defense plenty of leeway AND (b) hold the prosecution’s feet to the fire in order to end up with a conviction that will not be overturned no matter how many high-priced passionate lawyers come in on the appeal. Who do you think is gonna be on the defense briefs on appeal after the conviction:
Dershowitz
Merritt
All the other defense appellate lawyers who want their names on the briefs.
Nelson is doing good. Give her her props. 🙂
Also be patient and don’t get tense.
The trial date is set as well as the time line. Its up to Omara to fight facebook and twitter and the school for the records. If he cant get anything its not anyone’s fault and I dont blame any of them for fighting Omara. Omara is not gonna stop the trial and there isnt anything pertinent there anyhow.
I do not think that the prosecution is ‘under-performing’. I think that BDLR does not want to be dragged into a trial that is not an actual trial. IMO, the prosecution is waiting impatiently for the trial to begin. On the other hand, O’Mara is trying the case while delaying the commencement of the trial. I also think that Judge Nelson is doing very well. No mistakes so far. And no pandering to either parties (like Lester who told O’Mara that he has respect for him both as a man and as a lawyer!)
I personally think Dershowitz is a douche. Yes he was on Oj’s team of lawyers and I dont know if OJ is guilty or not because I was too young to pay or understand the trial then, but he’s a dirtbag and he know he was full of crap when he had his media outburst hence him not saying anything anymore
Jeralyn will prolly refuse to comment and just block anyone from asking her questions on her website
Robert Zimmerman is looking for some stardom. He has found it from this case. I wouldn’t interview him.
It is very disappointing to know that The Martin Family has to fight constantly to get justice. There is a double standard especially in Florida. I am losing faith fast because Omara can only win by slinging mud or presenting fairy tales. Zimmerman fairy tales. I’m limiting my postings so I do not get upset. I’ve seen too many people walk away from murder and police departments who are bias and lazy take the side of murderers because of money and influence.
I hope. GZ sees the inside of a jail cell some. It is crazy the dirty tricks omara is playing on the judge. She appears weak just like the Corey Team. omara is no fool it appears he wanted this judge for a reason. I wonder how puffy Shellie has gotten? Clearly they are worried and are eating to comfort themselves.
I know a bit about comfort food. Once I wrote a draft of a fiction book entitled “First Cannibal’s Cook Book.” I wrote this in the early nineties before I ever heard of or read “Like Water for Chocolate,” and then felt that people would imagine I had taken the idea from someone else’s work. But my book was a chapter following a recipe that had something to do with that chapter, then another recipe, another chapter, etc.
Here would be my addition of the recipe to be followed by my chapter about the author reacting to the Trayvon Martin killing.
Recipe: Comfort Food for Killers
Ingredients:
1 pound Pasta (either shells or bow-ties)
1 pound Butter
1 pint Cream
1 pint milk
12 TBSP flour
4 stalks celery
4 large carrots
1 large pumpkin (12 pounds or larger)
4 large cobs of fresh corn
4 large Idaho baking potatoes
1 pound sour cream
4 TBSP salt
1 tsp pure capaisin (may substitute 1/2 cup tobasco sauce)
1 green pepper
1 red pepper
1 orange bell pepper
1 yellow bell pepper
1 pint white vinegar
1 fifth cheap vodka
1 teaspoon ground black pepper
Directions:
1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees
2. Heat up a large pot of water to a rolling boil, add the pasta, cook until mushy, drain and set aside
3. melt the butter in a large saucepan, until browned
4. Gradually stir in the flour, tablespoon at a time, until it makes a thick paste
5. Slowly add cream and milk to the flour/butter paste, stirring after each addition
6. Chop one of the celery stalks very finely
7. Peel one carrot and then chop it very finely
8. Cut the top off the large pumpkin and scoop out the seeds
9. Pour the capaisin on the seeds and then eat them, you dumb b*stard
10. Shuck the cob of corn and shove it where the sun don’t shine, you moronic dirtbag
11. Place the potatoes into a plastic bag, swing it in a circle and then aim it at your damn ugly face so it breaks your nose, you lying piece of sh*t
12. spread the sour cream inside the pumpkin all over
13. sprinkle and spread the salt on the sour cream inside the pumpkin shell
14. Finely chop the green, red, orange and yellow peppers, and combine them with the chopped celery and carrot from steps 6 and 7
15. Drink the white vinegar all at once and snarfle it out your damn broken nose, you whiney a55hole
16. Combine the pasta with the cream sauce and dump the bottle of vodka on top of that, place in pre-heated oven and turn off the heat in the oven
17. Deeply inhale the pepper and sneeze your guts out and DO NOT BE BLESSED
18. Discard the finely chopped vegetables, remove the cob from your behind and replace it with the remaining celery and carrots, and stick your head into the large pumpkin
There, feel better?
Serve with humble pie. Perfect for police benefit pot-lucks in Sanford, FL.
Oh geewhiz I don’t get THAT at all. Is this from an old Gourmet magazine? Can’t a person buy it as a mix at the store?
Robert Zimmerman Jr.
http://www.fox59.com/videogallery/73134019/News/George-Zimmerman-apos-s-brother-We-are-not-apos-a-family-of-racists-apos
RZ Jr. is getting puffy-looking too.
Looks Botoxed as well. Is it my imagination, or is Fox59.com commenting on the Zimmermans through its link description?
I actually don’t think the Zimmermans are botoxed. Botox is a poison that kills the face’s ability to make expressions. Very expressive people, whose faces betray their emotions transparently, get wrinkled by the time they’re old, by moving their faces. People who either lack emotional content or who feel only one emotion (anger, need for dominance, suspiciousness, etc.) have relatively immobile faces. They are also the people who pass “voice stress tests” because their voices are emotionless and robot-like.
Robots age well. So do zimmermans.
“RZ Jr. is getting puffy-looking too.”
Plus dark circles/raccoon eyes. Something is getting to the Zimmerman family and their protesting they aren’t racist makes me think there may be a hate crime charge coming down the road.
They might be upset that Fox59 locates the video of RZ Jr as “George-Zimmerman-apos…
brother-We-are-not-apos…
a-family-of-racists-apos…”
I cannot stand the double-talking RZ Jr. He protests too much about race while he says nothing. Because of RZ Jr, I am hoping the FBI comes up with a hate crime because GZ indeed profiled a young black teen and ended up murdering him.
Does seem odd that the Z family is pounding away at the subject long AFTER the MSM dropped that angle.
Perhaps this is due to not so much due to GZs profiling TM as a thug so much as the support GZ has garnered from racists. If I were in that family’s situation, I’d feel strange about it.
Two sides says: “Perhaps this is due to not so much due to GZs profiling TM as a thug so much as the support GZ has garnered from racists. If I were in that family’s situation, I’d feel strange about it.”
The family can’t have it both ways. They want money to support themselves and I can see racists contributing to them and not mainstream people who have no interest in supporting the Zimmerman’s. They don’t seem to feel strange about anything, including maligning Trayvon by insisting he was a thug about to kill GZ in spite of evidence to the contrary and by maintaining websites asking for money.
I hope and pray the reason the Zimmerman’s are protesting so vigorously that they are not racists is that they are fully aware of GZ being investigated by FBI for a hate crime based on his profiling a black male, more than once according to records, but in any case referring to a black male as an azzhole who always gets away, suggests a racist attitude by GZ who ended up stopping this azzhole from getting away by killing him.
BINGO!! By listening to their “supporters,” the Zimmerman’s have taken up a banner that GZ was wrongfully arrested because of “racism.” Even that theory however, conveys that the Zimmernans and their supporters believe that Black have too much power and authority and need to “learn their place.” It’s a dog whistle. It’s a superiority dog whistle. When Blacks and/or women have power and authority to arrest a non-Black, that is too much for White Supremacist to bear. Sadly, IMO, some of the Zidiots have no idea that the “Let’s thugify Trayvon Martin” theory was started by White Supremacists.
@Xena,
Re: ”
” the Zimmermans and their supporters believe that Blacks have too much power and authority and need to “learn their place.”
Well, Xena, it’s true that Blacks need to “learn their place.”
It’s the White House.
bad editing – *due not so much to GZ’s profiling TM*
Race is a straw man argument and RZ is just trying to blow smoke in front of the real issue, which is a grown ass adult targeting, stalking, terrorizing, and killing a kid. Besides that he is an idiot and has no self control like his brother. Wouldnt be surprised if he flips out in court too.
Travares McGill.
Trayvon Martin.
Yikes!
OMG….this is the spawn of the CTH…….I. think I caused a little irritation with LLMpapa videos. The ignorance is amazing I was called a racist hoodie……lol
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
@katieunc. Sorry, but I will not give wagist.com the benefit of my “hit.” Know this — each time undisputed facts are discussed or brought forth in a video, the Zidiots go crazy. Their only defense is to denigrate Trayvon Martin, and/or his parents, and/or the prosecutors, and/or attorneys Crump and Jackson, and/or the person who made the facts available.
Xena you are spot on! Oh how the truth makes them angry. I just thought I would add a little truth to their fiction. I felt a little spunky tonight and decided to dish some reality!
The Zidiots are a very envious bunch of folks. Since the Christian Science Monitor quoted Professor Leatherman, the Zidiots have been on hateful-nervous overload.
George wasnt going to the department store Target, he was heading toward his “target”
Yeah. Since it took him at least 15 minutes of observation before calling NEN, I would say that he laid a plan during that time — probably wrote out the “cop script” for a justified kill.
Xena, George would also have to prove that he made more than $200,000 a year before being damaged.
Bingo! But wait. There’s another argument here. Before he was charged and put in jail, GZ was in debt, owed his parents, and behind in bills. While awaiting bond hearing, about $200,000 was donated to him that he used to repay his parents and to get out of debt. In actuality, his arrest served him a benefit. 🙂
Yeah, now we know how the middle class can get back on its feet. Move to Stanford and commit self-defense.
LOL
He’d also have to prove the damage was done by other people when 99.9% of the damage was done by George and his actions and statements LOL
I have known a few people who, when they have no power, and when they see that all the power is lined up against them (rightly or wrongly) begin to imagine that their enemies, the very powerful, have begun to act wrong and make all manner of mistakes because they realize that soon the tables will be turned and they will be sued. A woman who has been totally deprived of everything (unlawfully but very efficiently) is saying that she has inside information that the prosecutor who did this to her (without any evidence and yes, the charges had to be dropped ultimately) is terrified and every time he hears the words “nineteen-eighty-three” he has anxiety attacks and has to take medications. She imagines that everyone is afraid of the “big payback” and that this “big payback” will come when some lawyer rides out of the sunset on a white horse, takes her case, sues everybody who done her wrong, and makes them all give up all their property and all their liberty and cave in, cowering and blubbering because of their wrongdoing.
I think it is similar to people who have been done to imagining that their abusers are going to burn in hell forever after they die.
These fantasies of Crump, Jackson, etc. all being sued by the victorious George Zimmerman are signs of desperation and forms of comforting the fearful. The FIRST thing you need for a malicious pros case is that the underlying case has to come out in a favorable way to the plaintiff in that lawsuit. THEN you proceed to “proximate cause” and “malicious intent” and “scienter” and “damages” and on and on and on and on. Even if Zimmerman were acquitted outright he would not have any of those other things. Like the suit against NBC, these ideas are flights of fancy that probably make Zim and his feel a bit better in between their heavy doses of lorazepam and valium.
Ha! Duh! Here I was thinking it was heavy doses of vodka and bud light. LOL!!!
LOL
I dont think a lawsuit that consists of George complaining he looked bad for killing a kid, and was investigated and charged, and he claimed self defense, and lied a bunch of times to police and the court, is going to fly well.
Anyone with Twitter might want to tweet attorney Natalie Jackson with the following information. Sundancecracker of the treeslum alleges that Jackson, Crump and Parks discuss in private how they will avoid civil suits from GZ after he is acquitted. He claims “We have sources within both Jackson and Parks camps.”
I dont think that Crump and co would waste their time and intelligence on that dump because it is immaterial. George has no case for a civil suit against them or anyone. Sundancecracker is the dumbest of the dumb plus a pretty big loser.
Jun, as I’ve said numerous times, their ignorance amazes me. Let me expound — their ignorance of law amazes me. They actually believe that SA Corey can and will “drop charges” against GZ. Why? Because according to them, Crump and company don’t want to be arrested. Arrested for what? Consulting a PR firm and malicious prosecution. (sigh)
There are 6 elements to prove malicious prosecution in the State of Florida. One is that the defendant caused legally cognizable damage to the present plaintiff. So, GZ would need to prove in fact that he did not abandon his home and employment and go into hiding within hours of killing Trayvon and about 44 days before his arrest. 🙂
Its a little thing called probable cause that they couldnt get over LOL
And as much as they want to hate it, George did indeed profile and target a kid, stalk him, chase him, before killing the kid, who was unarmed… so anything they want to go at a PR firm about would be baseless and thrown out
I think its safe to assume the reasoning for why their lil website has no respect LMAO
Yep. And it’s on tape and video, even to George cursing at Trayvon when shooting him.
Almost all of George’s backers have zero credibility
Larry Klayman – has filed the most frivolous lawsuits in the history of the US and has the most baseless accusations
that’s one example
I don’t know Jun. The “birthers” may have one up on Klayman. 🙂 I did a research project of their court filings in 2008-2009. There is a woman in Florida who defended her standing to bring the suit by alleging that only a White woman or White man who has served in the military can be president, and since she is a White woman, she has standing to sue. She filed her complaint in forma pauperis. 🙂
LOL
That lady has never read the constitution LOL
But she claimed that she had and that is why she was suing to have President Obama removed from office because a “natural born” citizen can only be a White man who has served in the military or a White woman. That is what she argued. I kid you not. I still have her pleading. There’s another complaint filed by a prisoner in California. He filed it under the statute for violation of civil rights. There, the federal district judge ordered that he pay the filing fee by a date certain, or his complaint would be dismissed. Both complaints were dismissed, and then came Orly Taitz. LOL!!
Something just occurred to me: O’Mara is proving the conspiracy in the SPD. He is saying, of course, that the conspiracy was CORRECT and that it was not an ILLEGAL conspiracy. Essentially, he wants to prove that the conspiracy to NOT CHARGE GEORGE with a crime was 100% correct, and therefore, that it was a beneficial, legal, non-tortious, proper and righteous conspiracy. But he is proving that it was a conspiracy.
He objects, of course, to the fact that the FDLE went ABOVE the conspiracy to do something that the conspiracy did not want to have done. He protests that; he thinks that was a result of badness in the public sector. Some of his client’s supporters (including Alan Dershowitz) want people to be punished for going above the conspiracy to do what the conspiracy did not want done. Dershowitz wants Corey disbarred and publicly humiliated. O’Mara would probably go along with some of that himself; who knows. Certainly he wants punishment for Crump, Jackson, Sharpton, etc. But there are no charges in Florida for public badness.
Now there is only one way that the prosecutor’s decision not to go along with the police conspiracy (alleged now, and later to be proven, by O’Mara) to NOT charge George Zimmerman was bad. And that one way is the following circumstance, hypothetically speaking: NO EVIDENCE of Murder-2.
So the SPD conspiracy cannot have any effect upon the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman at this point. It will be shown to be possibly correct and proper if, and only if, there is NO evidence upon which to base a murder-2 charge. Since we have seen the evidence, we believe the likelihood of there being “no evidence” is very slim. After all, the tapes, the interviews, the statements, the bullet, the autopsy report, the physical evidence from the crime scene, all that would have had to be FAKED from beginning to end for there to be “no evidence of murder-2.” So for now, I am betting that the conspiracy alleged by O’Mara, and to be proven, he thinks, at trial (if his police witnesses’ statements of their opinions and intentions are allowed into evidence at the trial) turns out to be a wrongful conspiracy, not a perfectly appropriate and righteous one.
But the conspiracy, right now, is alleged only by the defense, not at all by the prosecution. I wonder what the FBI’s take on it will be.
All the judge will say is prove it. To claim Omara’s claim of their thoughts at the time of being no evidence, Omara would have to prove their thoughts were correct. I think Omara forgets that it was their thoughts at the time that there wasnt enough evidence although Serino felt there was for manslaughter. All in all, its useless info hence it was denied by the judge due to the moronic values instilled in such a piece to stand on by Omara.
Omara cant change the statements George gave, the shell casing, the smoking gun, his NEN call, the body location and how it was facing and its position, the 911 calls that night, the pieces of evidence that were picked up at the scene, that Deedee was on the phone with Trayvon, the clubhouse footage, and the pictures that were taken of George the night of the incident. Judging from the evidence of that night alone, its reasonable to think a murder took place. I kind of wish Judge Judy was here because she would just call Omara an idiot and tell him to get on with the gettin’,
I dont know what the FBI take will be but if the cops story is true that they simply felt there wasnt enough evidence, then I think the cops are safe and at the least will simply get punished for a few incompetent things such as letting George wash his hands and not securing his vehicle, as well as holding George as a suspect. They are also not done with their investigation so that is a big… scary thought for Omara and George
I think it’s the FBI who are not done with their investigation.
I think the SPD has completed their investigation into the death of Trayvon Martin, at least as against George Zimmerman. Whether the SPD is investigating anything else connected with this crime, I rather doubt it. I do think the feds are investigating half a dozen things connected with the crime, the way it went down, and the way it was dealt with afterwards. THAT is what O’Mara wants to find out. It is not relevant to the charge of Murder-2 against George. That the police did not charge him? Irrelevant. Immaterial. Incompetent. That the police did not WANT to charge him? Irrelevant. Immaterial. Hilarious. That the police might have tampered with evidence or interfered with the statements given by witnesses? Uh oh.
This is just a general comment to in reference to GZ supporters. A post was made on wagist.com ………. why would Tracy Martin profile his own son by calling juvenile hall before he filed a missing persons report….. these are the comments they think are going to set george free…….pathetic people
Very Pathetic. And who knows if that even true that he called juvenile hall first. Even if he did, it’s not relevant to the case. Had nothing to do with GZ profiling and killing an unarmed 17 year old.
I’ve seen fox news use this tactic of deliberately putting out a false or misleading claim. Even when they apologize or correct it later, it’ intended effect of swaying public opinion has already succeeded. Really hate that!!
OMG that is psycho-dumb. Psycho-dumb is dumb squared, by the way. First of all, every African American parent might check with Juvy in Florida if their kid gets “disappeared.” It would only mean that the common practice of picking up young Black males and throwing them in Juvy for infractions like tying their shoes wrong was known to the people you couldn’t ever hide it from. See, e.g., the following reference:
It always amazes me that racists want the people affected negatively by racism to remain unaware of racism. It’s as if they have some idea that the folks who have the MOST reason to object should politely pretend not to see what’s going on! 😈
Absolutely. Any parent of a missing kid might would rack their brains and think of all possible leads – juv detention, hospitals, the kids’ friends, etc.
The guy who runs wagist is an idiot. If you are investigating, you look under every rock. That was just another possibility and a juvenile hall may simply be a misunderstanding if he was there. Not everyone at a juvenile hall is up to no good. I have been to the police station but it does not mean I committed any crime.
And apparently not a parent either. The last thing a parent wants to think is that their child is in a morgue, dead.
First, the Zidiots cannot back up that claim.
Second, if I had a relative who didn’t come home and I called the local hospital, those such as the Zidiots can imply my reasons. For example, if they want to allege that the relative is a drug addict, they can say that I called the hospital to see if the relative overdosed.
The fact is that people can generally get more decency and faster answers out of medical personnel than they can from LE in such situations. LE takes info and says that they’ll get back to you — like you have and want to take time to sit and wait for the phone to ring.
I think the Prof is right about what Mark O’Mara’s strategy is.
That is the only explanation that makes sense.
Prof Leatherman – is MOM’s behavior in accordance with ethical standards? Are there any potential negative consequences (for his legal career) for MOM choosing this method of defense?
I am eagerly awaiting the results of LLMPapa’s most recent inquiries. I must say the timelines are very confusing to me as well and I don’t understand the visual spatial data.
I’ve been thinking about those videos that LLMPapa was talking about and I think those clubhouse videos show Zimmerman first looking for Martin, and then waiting for him to arrive at the clubhouse. I suspect Zimmerman didn’t make his non-emergent phone call until he followed him more than half way down the street.
LOL. Good rhyme is hard to do and you’ve mastered it!
BOOK COMPETITION
Final version George Zimmerdick’s “Ode to the Unfairness of Life”
Folks, this is not a repeat. My first try up thread was incomplete and I posted the wrong copy just above, so if the professor cannot delete the one above, this is the FINAL version!
______________
Oh, dear, what can the matter be
I shot Trayvon and the whole thing blew up at me
I should be the the hero… I’m sure I deserve to be
‘Cos I know it was all in “God’s Plan”
One night while patrolling, protecting the colony
I saw a young hoodie, where I thought he shouldn´t be
To me he looked suspect, despite walking leisurely
But what could I do, it’s not fair
I called the police to inform of the suspect
But I knew it was useless ‘cos hoodies run fastest
So I tracked and pursued him right down to my lastest
What else could I do, it ain´t fair
Now Angela Corey´s gone charged me with murder
And some even say she should have gone further
I feel so contraried I can´t stop eating burger
Help, what can I do, life’s not fair
At least Shelly supports me, and so does O´Money
And Osterman used to, but he’s now acting funny
He´s written a book telling more lies than any
Help, what can I do, this ain’t fair
The Treehouse and Alec donate me their dollars
But it just goes to show they aren’t studious scholars
‘Cos they’d drop me tomorrow if they realized who hollers
Please what can I do, this ain’t fair
If I ever get through this, it won´t be my doing
I´ve lied and contorted, which should be my ruin
But seeking justice for Trayvon is not for my wooing
It´s through no fault of mine life´s not fair
If I go to prison I could start a new hobby
Mentoring lawyers and burglars and unfaithful hubbies
I could teach them to lie without being sloppy
Should something go wrong with “God´s plan”
gbrbsb
Thank you!!! That is wonderful. You are very creative and hit the target.
Thank you for your nice words Xena. It gave me a smile writing it and its nice to know it gave a smile to others as well.
@gbrbsb –
So clever! I was charmed to read this “musical history” of GB’s past and future. Many US students may not recognize this as the very old UK childen’s song “Oh dear, what can the matter be?” with the fourth line always “Johnny’s so long at the fair.”
My mother was a young Lincolnshire lass, orphaned at 13 and shipped to “the colonies.” When I was a child, and grumpy, she would pick me up and whirl me around, singing “Oh, dear what can the matter be?” until I was laughing, particularly at her Lincolnshire “country accent” that only emerged in songs from her childhood.
As I recall, there were several saucy versions kids would make up … “Oh dear, what could the matter be, three old maids are locked in the lavatory – ”
This song was the “Improv” basis for my childhood. Fun memories – and you are the master at Improv, gbrbsb! Thank you!
Thank you Patricia; so glad I could bring you a smile since your writings have bought so many to me.
It never occurred to me it wasn´t a childhood tradition in the US y´all being “cousins” so to speak!
Me too the childhood memories… old maids version included… and later very naughty ones replete with innuendo! It was fun making one up again… he´s such a laughable character without wanting to diminish the serious nature of the matter.
Professor, sorry to trouble you but any chance you can delete the above post and let me upload it again with some tiny corrections… , four in total. I cut and pasted the wrong copy!
Or perhaps it´s possible to just substitute the ditty for the right one…
Sorry for all this professor, but I just couldn´t wait and posted the correct version below so the correct version is at least on the thread. Please if you could delete the post with the version just above this post I would be very very grateful.
Completed and changed ditty as posted up-thread with its title:
Anthology – Poems by George Zimmerdick
Oh, dear, what can the matter be
I shot Trayvon and the whole thing blew up at me
I should be the the hero… I’m sure I deserve to be
‘Cos I know it was all in “God’s Plan”
One night while patrolling, protecting the colony
I saw a young hoodie, where I thought he shouldn´t be
To me he looked suspect, despite walking leisurely
But what could I do, it’s not fair
I called the police to inform of the suspect
But I knew it was useless ‘cos hoodies run fastest
So I tracked and pursued him right down to my lastest
What else could I do, it ain´t fair
Now Angela Corey´s gone charged me with murder
And some even say she should have gone further
I feel so contraried I can´t stop eating burger
Help, what can I do, life’s not fair
Shelly supports me, and so does O´Money
And Osterman used to, but he’s now acting funny
He´s written a book telling more lies than any
Help, what can I do, it ain’t fair
The Treehouse and Alec donate me their dollars
I don’t see they can be very studious scholars
They might drop me tomorrow if they discover who hollers
Oh please what can I do, it ain’t fair
If I ever get through this, it won´t be my doing
I´ve lied and contorted, which should be my ruin
Seeking justice for Trayvon is not of my wooing
It´s no fault of mine, life´s not fair
If I go to prison I ‘ll have to start a new hobby
Mentoring lawyers and burglars and unfaithful hubbies
I´ll teach them to lie without being sloppy
Maybe something went wrong with “God´s plan”
gbrbsb……I was laughing so hard that I couldn’t sing through the entire song. Weird Al couldn’t have done any better!
Thank you grey winter sky glad you approve. I too had a laugh doing it… but it must be addictive as can´t seem to get the tune out of my head now or making up new verses or tweaking them… ! Probably why I gave up doing them many years ago.
I have a question for Lonnie Star, or anyone else who can answer, regarding a project I’m working on.
The Clubhouse videos intrigue me, but frankly give me a headache trying to understand what they are showing. I’m aware of very impressive work done by others in sorting through all the vids, but how are they assigning clock times to what the vids show or indicate?
Am I missing something? I’m aware of the LE document saying they are 18 minutes out of sync from real time, but what translates that info to a specific time at any point in the videos?
Trent Sawyer aka stateoftheinternet is the one who discovered the discrepancy in the timing. If you go back on those YouTube videos, he shows just how he discovered it and the scenario he believes to have happened – according to those tapes at the time.
Thanks. I’m somewhat familiar with some of the various, in depth, analysis that’s been done on these vids. I’m basically trying to understand how a specific clock time is designated for specific points of interest in the vids,
I wasn’t aware of who discovered the 18 minute discrepancy, other than the FDLE report that was released. I’m at my office right now, and don’t have access to my home files for a link to the FDLE report, but this is a “marked up” copy posted at JQ in which the FDLE mentions the 18 minutes.
What I found interesting was the line from Zimmerman (2-26-12) to Singleton that the gate cameras were not operational that night. Wow is he psychic or something? Did they flash as they went off and he noticed being such a keen observer of all things in “The Retreat”. Or maybe there is some footage from those cameras….say around 6:30PM …. but all you can see is a hand holding a spray can then everything fades to painted black.
He knows the neighborhood’s person who manages that — he used his name twice in recorded calls or interviews — and he said he hoped “to god” that there was a video of what had happened that night — in that voice he uses when he wants to be “devout” and when he seems to be lying, IMO — when Serino told him that Trayvon liked to take videos (a “cop-lie” probably because at one point both Serino & Singleton wanted to get George to come clean. So it is weird to me that the police would not have IMMEDIATELY asked for the videos. After all, the crime shows on TV do that first. Hmmmmm…
When Serino says that there may be a video of the incident – George said he hoped so. He said he hoped someone had a camera he didn’t know about. To me — strange comment. Cameras he didn’t know about. Hmmm. Does this mean he knows where all the security cameras are in the neighbours homes. Hmmm… why. This has always bothered me when he says that.
It also bothers me when Taaffe (another NW person) does the walkthrough interview for TV. He shows the reporter where it all happened. Then he states that he and Zimmerman knew this was the darkest spot in the whole neighbourhood. Hmmm… coincidental. Hmmm…
Taffe comes off as a drugged out alcoholic who has no self control, hence he lets slip of his tongue alot. Nancy Grace cut his mic before and I would not be surprised if Taffe flips out in court
Frank Taaffe is certainly an alcoholic. In the dash cam video of his recent DUI he says something classic. The police ask him if he wears glasses…..Frank’s response…swaying drunkenly from side to side…”Yes I have short term vision”!! Malisha in the initial audio interview GZ has with Singleton on 2-26-12 her police radio crackles and they are asking about the camera’s and who were in charge of them. I have looked at the gate camera’s which one would clearly know it is a camera, but perhaps the clubhouse camera’s are the ceiling bubble type in stores.
I think George is not as smart as he thinks. He does not seem to know there are camera’s in the clubhouse and I have always believed he called NEN because 1.) He knew the response time would be at their leisure since hey it’s not an emergency and 2.) He did not think this call would be recorded.
Hi LMMPapa
your best documented resource for this would be
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII
which is Tchoupis’ analysis. It has other information as well.
The times were worked out backwards from the clear-cut arrivals of the emergency vehicles, the times for which are well documented. and which show up very obvious big red and blue flashes on the videos.
Trent, Tchoupi, Willisnewton and others have done a lot of discussion on the precise times, and seem to have agreed on the “correct” times now.
LLMPapa, if you look for Trent’s vids about the clubhouse vids and times, they are on his Trent Sawyer Youtube channel — not stateoftheinternet. The times on the vids are 18 minutes slow. For instance, what GZ is saying at 7:10 p.m. is actually 18 minutes ahead of the time on the clubhouse vid.
Hi LLmPapa
Elfling send me a message on the Daily Kos that you were looking for information on the video clubtimes.
Time stamps were included with the original videos. They started at 6:30 pm. That timestamp didn’t make any sense when compared to the events on the video. Tchoupi at bcclist and I at daily kos thought the start time was somewhere between 6:46 and 6:49.
In the second evidence dump there is a memo about an interview with the technician responsible for maintenance of the security cameras at the clubhouse. That technician was the person who gave the information that the clock was 18 minutes out of sync, which put the start time at 6:48 pm.
Tchoupi, Whonoze and I came to the conclusion that 6:48 did not match up with the known arrival times of the police and emergency vehicles and the path they took after arriving at the complex , and witness statements in 911 calls about officers arriving on scene.
We were able to get the arrival times from the first 3 officers on scene in line with the light events at the clubhouse. When we used 6:46:36 all events matched up, including when witness 3 first saw officer Smith and the withness 18 mentioning the arrival of the emergency vehicles.
Tchoupi did an amazing job documenting all the information here
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII#LLdUY
Amsterdam
Thanks, Amsterdam, I thought you could help. 😉
Hey guys, a candidate for public office running on a “family values” ticket (name = Bodenweiser) in Delaware has been charged with over 100 charges of child sexual abuse. Look at this paragraph about him:
His campaign website touted how he was an active middle school mentor. According to news reports, Bodenweiser was a mentor for children at Georgetown Middle School and North Georgetown Elementary School.
Mentored kids? How could such a great guy be charged with a crime? Must be a result of racism or something.
It is very common for friends and family to believe the person is innocent. Some people just can’t face the facts of reality.
I dont know all the evidence yet to convict this man but that is quite the accusation.
I am not surprised the man has a standing in the community, working with kids.
I hear about a lot of cases of where the perpetrator of sex crimes against children will be a person who works with kids, such as a mentor, daycare, or teacher, or even a pastor at a church.
Their role as a career is all an act and a facade that hides their true character, really, no different than George Zimmerman’s howdy doody smile in your face act.
We will wait and hear from the Zimmerthug people how Bodenweiser was just playing doctor and there is black on black crime, so that is why they believe he is innocent (GAGS)
I want to add to my rant above that potential jurors may be searching the internet to read more about the case simply because of the rantings they read and hear coming from the defense. When you google the GZ case, this blog is one of the more prominent sites that comes up. I would hope that those potential jurors would read here what we would want them to know – not that we were even beginning to consider the bullshit that the defense is trying to serve up to the public or that we are not 100% behind the prosecution.
If I have misunderstood the direction that the comments here have taken, I apologize in advance. I am not going to be here during the day, as I work, in order to read your responses. So go easy, and I will review when I get back from work. Be safe all and remember – justice will prevail.
Good on you, Cherokee Native.
I doubt that any potential juror who admitted to reading blogs about the case would be accepted by either side as a juror.
I don’t know that I am happy with the sentiments being expressed in the comments under Professor Leatherman’s recent article above. It’s like some are following the “masses” and agreeing that this case is about the conspiracy to railroad GZ and not about seeking justice for Trayvon. I don’t care whether O’Mara and West pursue the theory that this case was a political conspiracy to further another’s career or reap piles of cash and prestige. They are desperate and it is to be expected. It is no different than Baez screaming RAPE at the trial of CA.
The prosecution deserves more loyalty than what has been demonstrated here in the comment section. They have the goods on GZ – he’s in checkmate. What we see here is the defense running around like a bunch of ants who have water flowing into their anthill trying to divert the water to a different location.
I refuse to believe that the prosecution is in any conspiracy with the defense to see this case be pled out or dismissed as they slowly pull the wool over the observing public. It is of no importance what a bunch of flat foot cops thought about whether or not GZ should have been charged and arrested on February 26th or a week or two after. LE’s job is to gather the evidence and submit it to the prosecutor to make a determination as to whether a crime had been committed and charges should follow. When the nation took a stand and insisted that the case be delved into further, that there was some hanky panky going on in favor of GZ, the Governor of Florida appointed a neutral prosecutor to review the evidence. That neutral prosecutor filed charges. It is now State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman. It does not matter what those before Angelia Corey thought about the case – it will not be admitted into the trial of this case. If there are to be any issues of corruption within government, and I believe there was that night on February 26th in favor of GZ, it will not be decided in the case of State v. Zimmerman. We need to quite entertaining the diatribes of the defense – quite giving them ground and quite acknowledging that their attempt to muddy the case with this political bullshit is warranted. There are some great minds here at work on this site. I hate to see it wasted by going that direction. We took on a cause – justice for Trayvon. Let’s continue to forge ahead in the prosecution of George Zimmerman for the murderer that he is. The prosecution has the defense in checkmate. It will be left to the jury to see that justice is served.
Peace and Justice for Trayvon.
Good post.
Cherokee, Absolutely.
I do think a petition to DOJ and/or to FDLE is in order to let them know that any attempt to avoid a full and fair hearing of what actually happened on 2/26/2012 will not be acceptable. I think you’re right on about the corruption in the station house on 2/26/2012 but I also think that there is some real exposure on the part of the prosecution if there are divided loyalties. Whereas I’m more cynical than the average bear, I have this reason to be so:
I witnessed an investigation by the Department of the Army Inspector General, followed up by an investigation OF THAT INVESTIGATION by the Department of Defense Inspector General, that came out with a gigantic report (more than 3,000 pages) concluding that — well, concluding that there had been a gigantic investigation. And I have seen about a dozen repeats of this kind of “circle jerk activity” at taxpayer expense and I’m more or less on the lookout for it whenever the individual symptoms show up. But in general I do agree with what you said.
I think that the prosecution will make a solid case. But, if the worst does come to pass – if GZ wins the self-defense hearing or if the case goes to trial and a half-assed prosecution results in GZ walking – isn’t it likely that the federal court would prosecute him?
Sure Cherokee. I think we shear the same thoughts and convictions. On this thread however, we are speculating on the possible strategies that could get Zimmerman off. A couple of very uncomfortable things could still happen in this case and we all need to be prepared for all eventuality. A trial (of this nature) is war. You have to prepare for possible nasty injuries along the way. Thus, in the war room, you virtualize ALL possible scenarios. ALL possible scenarios include the troubling and the ugly (i.e. possible racist-juror having “reasonable doubt” and letting Zimmerman off the hook, etc). That’s what I was doing: speculating on the troubling, the ugly, and how that might be accomplished.
Cherokee… just my observation….
I dont believe people here are not behind the State, I believe its just their feelings as we all believe in justice and a fair trial for Trayvon and George and George is obviously guilty. I feel some are simply worried about the state’s job.
As for the conspiracy theories, I was kidding when i wrote and I believe others were as well. I also doubt the state would cover up shoddy or perverse work of some SPD, if that were the case
Actually, Jun, I am cynical enough to believe that the state would cover up shoddy or perverse work of the SPD. But I sure HOPE not. I hope not because I hope Corey does have a stake in not letting herself look like a buffoon. And for a hundred other reasons. I just don’t TRUST. I still place the odds at 90-10 that George will do SIGNIFICANT PRISON TIME whether by plea or by conviction after trial.
The SPD’s present story of not enough evidence at the time will likely work out for the cops because they never stated he was not still a suspect. I think they are safe, whether or not that story is true or not, because listening to the 911 calls and the witnesses, there was reasonable enough belief and probable cause to investigate a murder and charge as well. Personally I think if an officer is obstructing justice that the single individual would be left out on a limb, depending on the severity of their individual actions. I dont feel they would go lengths to cover, I think the Governor and others would look good outing the incompetents as that shows a high standard for law enforcement. I dont know if there was any corruption or obstruction so it is only theory at present.
great post Cherokee!
I am on my 3rd week of vacation in Amman, Jordan before I pack up to return to Saudi Arabia… and I have been sightseeing most of the day… it is 2:24am here and I am just reading and catching up on the comments. My sincere apologies if some of my prior posts on this particular thread appeared as though I was not 100% fully behind the prosecutors in their case against Zimmerman. I want them to win this trail regardless of who may have to go down to do it. That is all. I will try to keep any pessimistic thoughts to myself for now on. It is just my way of maintaining my sanity sometimes. 😀 JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!!!!!
Marshalette….Your feelings are valid as this is a very emotional case for all of us who want to see justice for Trayvon. We’re human, we worry, we laugh, we think, we share, we speak. Sometimes there’s optimism, sometimes pessimism, and sometimes there’s humor to break the tension that we feel about this case. Sometimes we just need a “sounding board” in order to keep our sanity when things look bleak. And then we get back on track and focus on the goal.
Thanks for that @grey winter sky… I did not want my thoughts to bring the morale of this forum down (even if I had to keep them to myself)… But again, you are 100% correct, this is an emotional case and as such there will be a roller-coaster of thoughts/feelings throughout our unanimous seeking of justice for Trayvon!!!! 😀
Amen to that! I’ve read a few posters here truly consider that GZ will be offered a plea. I have not heard any credible reasons for that belief. Wolfinger: retired. A non factor. Billy Lee: fired. A non factor. A corrupt SPD: something good to clean up. A plus politically. So where is the hidden agenda? People needing to be shielded? GZ is a nobody murderer. A flash in the pan and his 15 minutes of fame have run over by a few minutes. The impartial evidence doesn’t care about politics. It is what it is. And it WILL send GZ to jail for decades.
I meant
… but rather ‘a reason behind which a juror would hide his/her real motive for acquitting Zimmerman’.
You sure O’Mara would have found that Black lawyer you’re thinking would have fit your bill? Not until after he found all those hens’ teeth — 😈
I’m sure Zimmerman would have gone with a black lawyer, if he wasn’t racist. O’Mara knows that Zimmerman is guilty, although I do think the guy is a complete moron. If you can try to get a racist murderer acquitted of murder charges, you are a terrible human being. I don’t think O’Mara has a conscience. I can’t say I wish him well.
Nejame and Baez both gave a stop sign to George, so I am guessing a reputable black lawyer would be even more difficult
@ Malisha, RE: deus ex machina
I agree with you that “(…) there simply is no “deus ex machina” that George can use to excuse what he did, and there is no doubt about what he did. (…)”.
But remember, we are not talking about ‘excuse Zimmerman can use to excuse himself’, but rather ‘a reason behind which a juror hide a his/her real motive for acquitting Zimmerman’.
If I were O’Mara I would have hired a well-spoken, fiery, demagogic BLACK lawyer (instead of D. West) to make the case that Trayvons’s race did not play any role as far as Zimmerman was concerned; that almost all the police officers of SPD decided that there was not enough evidence to charge Zimmerman with murder; that the indictment of Zimmerman was politically motivated to avoid riots on the streets of Florida and protect lives and property, etc. I will also have police officers of many years of experience, especially those of African-American heritage, appear in Court fully dressed in their official uniform and swear to the jurors that if the decision to charge Zimmerman were left to them to make, they would not have indicted him based on the lack of enough evidence. If this kind of testimony get in as evidence, the dice shall have been rolled.
Remember, the racist-mind only has to explain his ‘reasonable doubt’. Such a person can claim that he/she shears the views of the black lawyer, the honorable black officers with many years of experience in the police force, etc. If that happens, who are you or I to question his /her motives.
I meant
… but rather ‘a reason behind which a juror would hide his/her real motive for acquitting Zimmerman’.
People’s opinions, unless they are specifically allowed to give those opinions on certain kinds of issues in the trial (like a person’s competency or psychiatric state, like forensic science, etc.) are not going to amount to evidence. A police officer is allowed to testify to what he discovered or what he observed; his opinion’s got nothing to do with it, even if he’s the personal protector of the King of Finland.
You know what this triggers in my mind. Osterman’s biography. I found that an interesting little piece of the larger puzzle.
Searching Mind, I may get things wrong as always, but it feels we are close.
With one exception maybe. I think Don West was chosen for his experience in homicide potential death sentence cases. Maybe there isn’t an equally high profile black lawyer in this context, maybe O’Mara and West are more familiar with each other than with Florida’s Black lawyers? Worked together before. Somebody else got West involved? West himself was interested in the case? ….
But I guess, the larger context you describe is what attracts me much more to the supposedly more polite or enlightened support for Zimmerman circles from both the liberal and conservative camp. Maybe they concentrate on the fact that Zimmerman himself does not fit neatly into the typical hate crime profile? While profiling appears legitimate today? Which can only mean that Trayvon did not respond correctly, did not surrender to the assumed authority of Zimmerman.
How do you respond correctly, if you don’t know what is going on in the other’s mind, it’s crying inside me.
I was admittedly pretty shocked about the treatment of the black Trayvon Martin support, with its constant repetition of the race riot threat. Or painting the most prominent supporters as demagogues or race-mongers that are really a threat to civilization, or the good straight church-going people, if you like. Notice this does not include the members of the church of e.g. Jeremiah Wright. I’ll never forget the vicious onslaught against that quite interesting man.
And I am not suggesting, by the way, that we do not have our own serious problems in both hate crime and discriminatory practices by enforcement.
I should stop but I can’t help myself.
HSI says, at one point:
“O’Mara again rightly points out that Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson via Ryan Julison, are in fact the individuals responsible for any and all material prejudice created in this case. Including forcing of these wrongful charges. … I guarantee you that the State will start looking for a way out of this mess. Even though the defense lost the Order of Protection motion, Mr. O’Mara got it out there and on record. This is not lip service folks. The defense has evidence that the State Attorney’s Office and the Sanford PD knew that there was no evidence to support anything but George Zimmermans self defense claim.”
This reads to me like a form of self-comfort. I don’t think this sounds at all like Robert Zimmerman Jr. OR Senior. Both of them are into self-righteousness and screams of “ouch ouch mean people are being bad to us” or “bad people are being mean to us” but neither of them speaks or writes like this. This person is self-comforting in a circular reasoning way:
1. George Zimmerman is innocent because HE HAD TO KILL Trayvon Martin. (Remember he said on Hannity he wished there was something that would have made it possible that he did NOT HAVE TO KILL Trayvon Martin? All assbackwards.)
2. Since George Zimmerman is innocent it was ONLY right to NOT charge him with a crime.
3. Since he was innocent and it was only right to NOT charge him with a crime, charging him with a crime was the wrong that was committed.
4. The wrong that was committed was not any wrong committed BY George Zimmerman but the wrong committed AGAINST George Zimmerman.
5. Those who arranged that George Zimmerman was wrongfully charged with a crime did WRONG and therefore the charges are WRONG and therefore George Zimmerman is innocent.
Thats such massive nonsense… but let us see Omara prove that there is no evidence that George killed this kid and that it was unlawful and that SYG does not stand for George because he infracted every ounce of that statute set.
There’s the kid that George killed, his dead body’s position, the bullet, the smoking gun, the defendant’s statements = more than enough probable cause for murder or at least manslaughter
Me thinks the state just wanted more than enough evidence
Malisha….The HSI site is an absolute hoot. BTW…I like your idea of using “HSI” because after I posted my second comment about them I thought….E-e-e gads, I’m giving them free advertisement here….not thinking (brain block) that “others” also read this blog besides us. Going there is just like going back to HP or CTH, the curiosity to see what they are spewing at the moment is sooooo tempting…..and at this point, good for a laugh.
Oh Grey Winter, you made my day! Since I don’t usually go googling around to find stuff about George Zimmerman unless there’s a hearing or something, or unless I’m looking for something specific and want to see what the media have said about it and when, I went to “he’s still innocent dot com” (hereinafter referred to as the “HSI dot com”) and found that stuff. My personal favorite:
“… Mr. O’Mara has more than enough evidence to prove that George was never to be charged, and the Governor of Florida overstepped his bounds by lawyer shopping to get somebody to make the mean black people go away. * * * This, ladies and gentlemen is the beginning of the end. I suspect Georges lack of accepting a plea deal, and the entirety of Sanford PD’s brass appearing as Defense Witnesses will result in a last ditch plea offer of some sort of misdemeanor, which will be refused and then a dismissal will follow.”
So, now the trial has, in the mind of the HSI dot com, been changed from a criminal charge against George Zimmerman to a civil charge against the Governor of Florida, who apparently “lawyer shopped” to find someone who would draw inappropriate charges against George to “make the mean black people go away.” This is predicated upon the notion that the real deciders in a criminal investigation of the death of a minor are the police in the department that first investigates the crime. Anybody with more authority than the police under law “overstep their bounds” (but wait — how exactly did they get bound?) if they use the legal means put in their power by the legislature of the state to override a decision made by police who did not, in the first instance, have that legal means themselves.
It’s just silly so let’s presume it to be true, arguendo. (This is because it could never be proven, so we assume it in order to understand it better.) This would have to mean that if the police chose not to charge someone with a crime, the presumption of innocence becomes an irrebuttable presumption. All the person has to do when they ARE charged with a crime is show that the police themselves did not CHARGE them, and they’re home free. Let’s see how that would work.
To start with, let’s imagine a scene in which there actually IS a police conspiracy, although HSI is sure that in this particular case, there not only cannot have been one, but to point out certain very obvious signs of one is motivated only by hatred. So we won’t take the Zimmerman case, let’s take, instead, a case I will make up from scratch. Let’s go to Detroit. A Black cop named — oh — Tyrone Smith maybe — is having some problems with his ex-wife. A white woman who has showed up at several police-sponsored community meetings somehow ends up shooting Smith’s ex, straight through the heart, and stands there with the smoking gun as the police arrive, and says, “I was yelling help help but nobody would help me.” The cops take her down to the station house. They do not arrest her. They say they do not have evidence that she did not shoot in self-defense. She does not go home that night, however; she leaves her job and stays with friends in another part of town for six weeks.
The killer claims that she did not know the vicim, but that the woman had come at her, calling her “bitch” and assuring her that she was going to kill her. She admits that the victim “came at her” with a snickers candy bar, not with anything that appeared to be a dangerous weapon. But she says, “I’m diabetic; that coulda killed me show nuff homie.”
Within two weeks news that the shooter was never arrested or charged with a crime hits the front page of the Detroit Free Press. Massive protests follow. The Governor of Michigan appoints a special prosecutor in accordance with law. That prosecutor charges the shooter with Murder-2. The defendant’s lawyer then only has to prove that the original police decision to NOT charge the shooter with any crime was unanimous in the station house, and that the original prosecutor (with whom Smith had worked for 12 years) had “no evidence that the shooter did NOT act in self-defense.”
Naturally, since foolish people love conspiracy theories, the idea that the “man on the street” in Detroit has about the police getting together to give this particular shooter a “pass” for this particular shooting are the work of paranoid, deranged minds. In fact, the original federal legislators who passed that law making “conspiracy to deprive a person of his constitutional rights under color of state law” actionable probably had these kinds of minds.
On to a more thoughtful and pensive response to the stuff I read on HSI. The author of that blog is very angry. She is extremely defensive. In this respect she identifies strongly with George Zimmerman. It is easy for a person who feels so kindred to someone like George to feel very done-to by the things that are being done to George. I think HSI feels very bad about being excluded somewhere, being kicked out of something, perhaps being fired from something. She identifies with Osterman’s original comment about George having very few friends. She lacks authority and feels that acutely. She wants to show up others for how bad they are, but hasn’t got a very active cheerleader squad. Many of these characteristics are the very same characteristics that I believe made George feel as desperate, misunderstood, indignant, and essentially murderous on the evening of 2/26/2012 when he reached out and changed the world.
It can be made into a kind of stand-up routine but in point of fact, it really isn’t very funny. We have people killing folks when they get to feeling this way. That’s a big vulnerability in our society.
And Al Capone could have said that the government lacked evidence that he murdered and violated prohibition law. The charge of income tax evasion was just something the feds made up because the Irish didn’t want Italians carrying guns.
Your post: above: [““And now it’s time for us to know what all school children learn; that those to whom evil is done will do evil in return.””].
“That’s the secret ingredient in the George Zimmerman story. Evil was done to him in his past; he does evil to others now.”]
Poetry is really cool, and that is a good example of a thing that seems to be, the damaged child, may become a monster.
I don’t believe that it is always like that, there surely are many more damaged children who have been good.
Bottom line to my reply: I don’t give these bastards any excuse, they are monsters, leave it at that, and put them away, and… so, just remember evil exists, and when one chooses to go that way, that is what it is!!
Ed, and once again I agree with you, but I’m not necessarily disagreeing with Malisha either. It’s all about the individual person’s makeup or temperment. Some children will become very damaged in an abusive environment, while others will emerge unscathed, or with a few problems that might take years to resolve, but that they are able to get through these problems themselves. Then there are children who grow up in a loving and caring family who grow up to be abusive bullys, con artists, and/or murderers. There are some who grow up in families in which they are the “golden child”. They come from good families but they are spoiled and are never held accountable for anything that they have done wrong….their families always bail them out or cover for them no matter what they have done wrong. And yet, another child from this same family will grow up to be a responsible, hard working adult. Who knows?
Well ok Grey Winter Sky… so you say, all that, but I still hold with the idea that, all of us, will show our cards in the long run.
And I think we will be good, or bad, and be judged, as such.
I guess I am sort of… religious… I guess I have a gene for it!
I think some kind of god will put things right, some day!
ed, Although I am not a very religious person myself, what ever someone believes in (or not), if it’s respectful and fair tword all things on this earth, I can accept it. Regarding your last sentence…….I would like to think that that would be true.
Regardless of god or not, it is our responsibility and duty to insure justice in our community. We can’t wait to be rescued. We must work for our worlds justice.
I wonder if anybody knows about Judge Nelson’s various decisions before the Zimmerman case came to her.
She’s a child advocate and she is known to be a roughneck so lawyers better be on their toes
some lawyers dont like her and have bad mouthed about her
She will hand a stiff sentence without blinking
I should ammend the above … comment,, what I meant would be: that, the perp is more like a Neandeterthal/ cave man type, and that the poor kid that got killed, to my opinion… was more of a modern man. In other words: the kid that died, was superior in every way to the bastard that killed him.
Now, I could walk that back as to the term “bastard”, ok…
I have known many nice bastards… that guy is more likely some kind of “sociopath”… that is the way it is called today.
ed…..You are so right.
“In other words: the kid that died, was superior in every way to the bastard that killed him.”
I’ve not read a statement about this case that I agree with more.
Of course he was. I don’t need to look at Trayvon’s school records to know that even at a high school level he was head and shoulders above GZ.
The actual proof that TM was the superior person is this – no matter who you are all truth is usually revealed in death. How long was it after this hit big that we had the former bouncer/security co-worker that came out to share the Hyde side of GZ?
We have not heard one, not a single person connected to TM say one negative thing about him. The Zidiots don’t want to admit it, but Trayvon was a bad kid, a thug, etc etc every other piece of crap fallen from their lips about him, we would have heard it by now. Too much time and too much attention has passed for that not to have happened.
Was Trayvon an absolute angel? No, no kid is, but we can all be for damn sure that Trayvon would have actually done something with his life and was on his way to be what a “real” man should be. Something George will never amount to. Not even if he got down on his knees, told to truth and sincerely beg for forgiveness for what he has done.
GZ is less than nothing and will be til the day he dies.
Trayvon would have been a wonderful adult, as are his father and mother and as his brother is also becoming. He had great role models. There is no evidence he was ever abused at home (as there was evidence that George was, terribly) so he would have “spread his wings and flown” given his time to do so. That is the biggest loss we all have to suffer. He might have been the aeronautical engineer who made sure that some plane I flew in the future was working properly; he might have been the person who became significant in any one of our lives somehow, had his life not been snuffed out by a f*cking punk with a little hero complex.
I am remembering lines from the poet W.H. Auden, however, applicable to George Z:
“And now it’s time for us to know
what all school children learn;
that those to whom evil is done
will do evil in return.”
That’s the secret ingredient in the George Zimmerman story.
Evil was done to him in his past; he does evil to others now.
Re: Malisha’s above comment: one certainly speculates what it could have been.
Well, what the hell do you do/ say/… when you have a Neanderthaller, attacking a poor little collord guy, who, do to the perception of the predominent… sort of… well… neanderthal population, and… (Is it other… ?… ). No it isn’t sweet heart!
The Black kid was put in there as something, that the Neanderthaller, could kill, and… get away with it, because, he some kinda way… like he some kinda way might hide in some kind of way.. like he could… ” PASS FOR WHITE”… sorry Charlie, that guy don’t pass for white, and he don’t pass any ways either!
That Ugly jerk, should be shipped off to Quantamisamo!!
When I was much younger, I used to be acquaintances/co-worker with someone who, on many occasions at work, took the opportunity to make disparaging remarks about me when we were all sitting together at our break. Some of the remarks cut quite deeply, but I said nothing in retaliation, and sat there pretending that it didn’t matter and trying to look very calm (when in fact, I felt mortified). Later, some of the people who we sat with would come up to me and ask me how I could take her “crap”. I would just calmly say that “that is just the way so-&-so is. She has her good points but she also has her own problems.” I realized that I didn’t have to defend myself. That this co-worker actually did a great job of making herself look like an idiot while trying to discredit me. And the people who really mattered to me could see right through her nastiness.
Which brings me to this point………
I don’t know if any of you have seen this blog site:
Still self defense. Still not guilty – Exposing the liars in the Trayvon Martin Camp
stillselfdefensestillnotguilty.wordpress.com
Many folks here are being discredited on that site……..
….You folks must have really hit some raw nerves. I’m proud of all of you!!!! Good Work!!!!…lol
I drove by the site in question. I was STUNED when I noticed that the blogger is NOT capable of discussing EVEN ONE SINGLE component of Zimmerman’s claim of ‘self-defense’, even though the site is dedicated to showing that Zimmerman acted in self-defense – and as such not guilty (!). The blogger engages entirely in hateful argumentum ad hominem attacks, diatribes, fallacious polemics and name callings. I was also struck by the fact that the (gist of the) message conveyed by the blogger, his choice of words, his sentence constructions, the kind of anger steaming out of him, etc. are the same with that of Robert Zimmerman Jr.
If that blogger is serious about discussing the evidence, HE IS MOST HIGHLY invited to this site for respectful, pure evidence-based discussions. But I fear that he may not have the courage to do so.
SearchingMind, I think that blogger cannot actually come to this site; I think she’s been kicked off this site in the past. Just a hunch. The Zimfolk do not deal with evidence and they do not think that O’Mara should have to, either. In fact, in that respect they are very similar to George, who never thought HE should have to deal with evidence.
After all, when something is god’s plan, evidence is not necessary. Man is saved by faith alone.
I have a feeling its the Lin Z profile from facebook who was obsessed with GZLC facebook page because she would repeate that mantra over and over
Hey, he said I’m a low brain power sycophant (along with everyone else)! Oh! Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Whah! He didn’t show me the kind of subservient respect I deserve, so I’m gonna put him in a wristlock–Humph!– and grab his hoody, leggo the wrist and quick reach back here for my trusty little piece, yep, and… oh, and is he screaming for help and mercy, in front of absolutely everybody? Well, I’ll show him how to quiet it down, won’t I, durnizhide!
I thought of something absolutely diabolical. Let’s say George gets a trial and they deadlock at 5 (convict) to 1 (acquit).
Then they re-try. They deadlock 4 (guilty) to 2 (not guilty).
Then they re-try. They deadlock 3 to 3.
Then they retry. They deadlock 2 to 4.
Then they retry. They deadlock 1 to 5.
Then they retry. They convict. Judge sentences. George appeals. Loses in the DCA and takes it up to the Florida Supreme. 35 amicus briefs go in on the defendant’s side and 104 go in on the state’s side. They overturn on a point of evidentiary law.
Then they retry. They convict. Judge sentences. George appeals. Loses in the DCA and takes it up to the Florida Supreme. 12 amicus briefs go in on defendant’s side and 51 go in on state’s side. They affirm. George’s folks file for post-conviction relief. That is denied, appealed, denied again. George’s folks file for a federal habeas corpus. Federal judge denies. George appeals to the Appeals Circuit, and gets a remand. Federal district court holds a hearing. The issues is the unconstitutional composition of the jury. Also “ineffective assistance of counsel” because by then, O’Mara and West were both elderly and suffering from dementia. George’s conviction is NOT overturned after the hearing. He appeals to the Circuit again, gets affirmed, and oops, it’s been 20 years. Time for him to make an application for parole.
He tells his parole board he does not feel remorse because he was just trying to defend himself from Trayvon Martin and he did nothing wrong. Trayvon Martin was a thug who called George a “motherfucker” and assured him that he was going to kill him that night. Parole board notes int he denial that he did not express appropriate remorse. By the time this is all done his sentence is over. He still can’t find a job. He’s still scared of dogs. He still can’t fold paper. His tell-all book, entitled, “Why they should’ve apologized to me,” sold 121 copies, 7 of them autographed.
There is no torture like the torture of laws.
Malisha….I love your comments, they are intelligent, witty, and so right on target….lol You need to seriously consider gathering up all the funny scenerios/stories that you have posted here and put them into book form. A page of Zimmerman defense/excuses and then a page on your take….too funny!!!!
That’s what I keep telling her…
GWS, I’m working on a book and a play right now. But don’t think I haven’t been tempted to write a quickie called, “Zimmerspeak: how to turn everything around and make yourself look innocent with the hope of getting away with murder.” Or that’s just the working title. I’m thinking also of an edited book, asking Professor and others here to offer chapters. I really am thinking about it. Of course Sling Trebuchet, LLMPapa, Trent Sawyer, and a few others would have to say “yes, lets” before I’d get serious. I want to thank you for your kind words because somehow, at this point in my life, expressing myself has become quite important to me.
😀
Malisha…..You do a great job!
Something just occurred to me.
While George was stalking and trying to restrain Trayvon Martin, a kid in his neighborhood had a dog who got off his leash and ran. George, remember, had gotten his gun specifically because a dog got off his leash one time, right? Yet here a kid is, his dog gets loose, and George, the NW helper, is not there to solve the problem and shoot the dog. Instead, George gets all mixed up and shoots a resident!
That dog was RIGHT to run!
Animals are good at sensing danger and the dog could sense Zimmerman’s intent.
>^..^< got up late from my catnap.
I honestly dont believe a racist all white jury would even help Zimmerman to be honest. As much as they all dream of being white, they are South Amerindians – they are latinos – they are hispanic. The racist white jury would be putting away the typical latino thug who thinks he is a cop and save their children from his crazy wild behavior of those “Hispanics”. To them it would be another latino thug killing a black kid, typical ghetto war.
The majority of Zimmerman groupies never did care about him. They had their own agendas.
Thank you. I’m happy to know I’m not the only person who sees that. If any bigots end up on the jury who know nothing about the case, they will see GZ is a “worthless, wetback Mexican.” He’s not a genius. At the age of 29, he’s accomplished nothing beneficial. He is more likely to be seen by bigots as a burden on society.
OMG!! Don’t let ShelLIE be in the courtroom! A “wetback” marring a White girl!!! God forbid! From the bigots POV, kill all the Blacks you want, but don’t touch our White women.
@Xena: Spot on. If GZ had his degree, had his own business or was otherwise successful and so forth he’d be more appealing to them. As it stands now, not so much.
GZ tells the tale of his lifestyle in his story for the evening of 2/26/12. He and ShelLIE always get groceries on Sunday evenings. ShelLIE is unemployed. So here are the men on the jury thinking, “Why should an unemployed wife have to wait on her husband who works and attends school, to accompany her to shop for groceries the evening before he has to prepare for work on Monday?”
Here are the women on the jury thinking, “Why couldn’t he just make money available to his wife for her to grocery shop during the week? Is he one of those control freaks”
Then, he’s carrying a gun with him to grocery shop. Why? He was not carrying cash. He lives in a gated community where he can leave and enter through his garage. He doesn’t have to park several blocks away and walk. What is this guy really afraid of?
Then they look at the pics taken of him at the police station and think, “This guy looks like a Mexican gangbanger. Look at the frown in his face. He looks mean.”
Xena says: “Then, he’s carrying a gun with him to grocery shop. Why? He was not carrying cash. He lives in a gated community where he can leave and enter through his garage. He doesn’t have to park several blocks away and walk. What is this guy really afraid of? Then they look at the pics taken of him at the police station and think, “This guy looks like a Mexican gangbanger. Look at the frown in his face. He looks mean.”
Great points and things I have never even thought about. What was GZ afraid of?
The racists are using the death of Trayvon to further their own racist agendas. In their eyes, Zimmerman is also a man of color because he is Hispanic. I have seen racists target black people more than any other race and I am not really sure why.
@Xena
I know I had heard that Zimmerman said something about going to the grocery store. But if he was armed and did not have money or credit cards on him, that would make that another big lie that Zimmerman has told.
He may have had a Target credit card but personally, I think it’s foolish to purchase groceries on credit. If a person can’t afford to feed themselves, how are they going to pay interest on the food they charge? But yeah, that Sunday evening grocery shopping around 7 p.m. just doesn’t sound right for a couple where the wife doesn’t work and the husband has to get up for work on Monday mornings.
@Xena
Another excellent point by you! Grocery shopping is typically a female job in a relationship, unless you enjoy doing it together. My dad never went grocery shopping for food until my mother got sick. It is not something men like to do unless they have to. Since Shellie is unemployed, it would make sense for her to do the grocery shopping herself when her husband is at work.
IMO, anyone working full-time and attending school with a stay-at-home spouse who has their own transportation, who every week waits to grocery shop on Sunday evenings, is not well organized.
Control issues. Didn’t Osterman say he was frugal? I think he thought Shellie was not smart enough to do the shopping. He had to have control over everything his and her life, including what kind of sanitary napkin she should use, jmo.
: ^ )
>blockquote> Control issues.
That’s my opinion also.
I take that to mean that after moving out of his mother-in-law’s house, that GZ still hadn’t furnished off the townhouse. Also, wonder what happened to their linen, pots and pans, dishes, furniture, etc. since they moved-in with the Osterman’s on 2/27 and didn’t return?
THAT would be a cryin’ shame, but actually believable. ShelLIE probably asked GZ how many sheets of toilet paper to use when she went to the bathroom also.
; ^ )
Re: The grocery shopping thing. George may be the kind of person who is worried about how the household money is being spent and has the final say in all purchases. Maybe is partner spends foolishly if left alone to do the shopping.
Heck, they haven’t been married all that long. So, maybe shopping for groceries together is something they look forward to every week. Judging by the jailhouse calls, they seem to be very close and George doesn’t trust that she can do a good job at anything. So, I can see both ideas.
Which Target in Florida can you shop with 50 cents to buy groceries? Please direct me to the location because that is hell a deal
ha!
I just went over the Credit Union records. From March 31, 2012 until the account was transferred to MOM at the end of April, the Zimmerman’s spent $338.06 at Target. So, maybe on 2/26/12, George and ShelLIE was really going grocery shopping with only 40 cents. 🙂
Actually, I think that some of you may be making too much of the joint grocery shopping thing. My husband and I have usually done our big weekly grocery shopping together, through 30 years of marriage, regardless of what else we had going on in our lives. In our case, part of it is that my husband does a lot of the cooking.
If he was so frugal that they had no furnishings for their town home, maybe he and Taaffe were stealing from the neighbors in order to furnish his place. IT’S JUST A THOUGHT! why else would he not want to give his home addy to LE that night, in case one of them came to his home and saw a familiar piece of stolen goods sitting in his home.
In ALL of his calls to the cops, not once did GZ give his home address. About living frugal, in July 2011, GZ received a settlement check in a civil case in an amount a bit over $18,000. Seven months later, he was broke and behind in his bills. He was working full-time in July 2011 and was on the same job in Feb. 2012. People who go through significant amounts of money like that in a short time, and have nothing to show for it, generally have a drug and/or alcohol addiction.
Also note: After he left the police station, GZ and ShelLIE went to their house, packed some things, and went to Osterman’s house. He was making sure that if the cops came by with a search warrant, he would not be there. What did he do with his furniture? When did he move it or did he actually have furniture worth moving?
While living with Osterman, and before launching his website begging for money, GZ borrowed $3,500.00 from his parents and spent $135.00 of that at the U.S. Postal Service in Lake Mary, FL.
My thoughts are that GZ had something in his house, maybe stolen property (lots of jewelry had been stolen in that community), that he moved to Osterman’s and probably sold on ebay. The $135.00 may have been the cost to ship those items out. But, that is federal territory — and the FBI’s investigation is still ongoing.
I thought about it today and I am going to bet that Zimmerman will be giving yet another story at the immunity hearing and the trial…
So the state better be ready to deal with that…
That’s the only way I see around it
Also, if Omara tries to taint a jury, that would mean the trial was a fraud, and therefore, the defendant was never in jeopardy, as that, he may be tried again, and a proper jury found, because there is no scientific way that George’s story is true and a trial can not be based on fraud or else its another day in court for Zimmerman
A jury is supposed to be impartial and follow the evidence only
I heard the FBI is ongoing investigation so they will be there if the state screws it up but I dont see any way Zimmerman could be let go unless there was some corruption and fraud done by George and his camp
Yeah, probably — Like, once he hit me in the nose, the details of what happened are a little fuzzy; Hence, the many stories. I just wasn’t thinking straight after I got the broken nose.
“Yeah, that’s it!” [quote from “the compulsive liar” skit on Saturday Night Live, circa 1975]
“I couldn’t think straight after I got the broken nose. Because I think with my nose. Sniff Sniff. I think I’m being treated really bad and I think Sharpton should apologize to me. Sniff. See? Now that my nose is a little bit healed I can think better. Sniff Sniff Sniff. And you should have heard me scream when I was a teen-ager: it was this high nasal whining sound, because of my nose.”
Oh of course. It will be an all knew Franken story with new details to try and account for any plot holes brought about by that gosh darned evidence.
I hope the professor would open another blog page dealing with some older cases in America. That would be interesting having the students here investigate other crimes. Just a thought..
I have been reading a lot of different cases similar to what has happened in this case. Mind blowing… The only issue is that they are not national cases.. I ve been away but still am holding out for justice for trayvonn.
Start with the July 16, 2005 killing of Travares McGill.
He was shot by two white security guards, Patrick Swofford and Brian Ansley, one of whom was the son of a police officer. This case also made me sick when I read about it.
I was dismayed to learn that it took place in Sanford, FL 6.5 years prior to George Zimmerman’s killing of Trayvon Martin. The self-defense argument for shooting McGill in the back was upheld (under what judge, I wonder) and the perpetrator went on to be arrested for impersonating a police officer, according to the mugshots website, and DUI.
There are some parallels that jump out at me, but mostly that it was in Sanford, FL. What’s wrong with that place?
A friend of mine just told me he has an entry for the contest:
“The Nazis made me do it”
I think a title George would choose is “It was all God’s Plan.”
“How to show people that you deserve to be a cop”
It Wasn’t My Gun, It Wasn’t His Gun —– It Was THE Gun
:] The Gun Did It.
The gun nuts would disown him for that one – you know how they always say “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”
“People who Kill People”
NEW CONTEST:
Best Book Title for George Zimmerman’s Autobiographical “Tell-All”
My first entry: “How I never did anything but exactly the right thing, ever, and how anything that wasn’t exactly right was somebody else’s fault and they should apologize”
Dedicated to: Police Chief Billy Lee who gave me the idea for the book
“How To Be A Cop Without Really Trying”
“Neighborhood Watch For Dummies”
“Gangster on MySpace: The Real George Zimmerman”
“What My Gang Tattoo Really Means”
“How To Fail College In Five Years”
“Proper Application of Butterfly Bandages Between The Eyes”
“He’s up to no good, I dont know what his deal is”
“How to claim a broken nose when it was never broken”
“George Michael Zimmerman. The Man, The Myth, The Contradiction”
“F***kin Coon, F**kin Punk, These Assholes Dont Get Away”
“Georgy Boy – From Child Stalker, Molestor, & Murderer to Prison Rape Victim of Bubba & the Mexican Gang”
LOL@Jun.
“How to gain 50 pounds in 3 months.” By George “tugboat” Zimmerman.
Very funny.
“Jailhouse Phone Calls; How to Talk In Code”
“How To Feed A Family of Two Off 40 Cents A Week”
Title for GZ’s book:
“How To Become Rich and Famous by Killing a Black Teen.”
Title for SheLIE’s book.
“Living and Loving a Sociopath – My Journey to Perjury”
For starters:
“Why me? An intimate conversation with God
(To my unborn children)
“Why Knuckle Bandages Sould Be Applied To Your Scalp”
by George “Knucklehead” Zimmerman.
“My Friend: Sean Hannity”
“The Most Hated Man in America”
“Shimmering My Way Out of Murder 2”
“If I Did It: This is How”
“No Regrets”
“Just Get an Officer Out Here Now”
“Up to No Good”
“25 to Life”
“They Always Get Away”
” You Got a Problem Homie?”
“Everything is self defense”
“You call it child molestation, I call it playing doctor”
“It was not illegal to follow Trayvon”
“Running, Skipping, Circling – A Guide To Being A Master Debater”
“George Zimmerman – Black, Jewish, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Polish, German, Canadian… I am every woman”
“Omara & Zimmerman – The Intimate Bond”
“The Dangers of Skittles & Ice Tea in Sanford – A Guide To Find Suspicion”
“George Zimmerman & Mark Osterman – Hundreds of Black Friends”
“The Debacle Of A Night Watch Man”
“That Niggy TB – The Prophylactic That Could”
“George Zimmerman: The man, the myth, the malcontentedness”
A few more:
“How to shoot straight… for dummies”
“The Zimmerdick guide to suspect spotting”
“Wealth creation for the discerning perjurer”
“Bank transfers made easy”
“How to Lose A Friend In Just Six Weeks”
“My Wife Had My Back When She Lied”
“How My Wife’s Shopping Habits Put In A Position to Kill”
LOL! Great idea this… nice destraction!
Did anybody do “Self-Defense for Dummies” ?
No, but it´s a good one, and Stand Your Ground for Dummies too!
ROTFL ! ! ! !
“Anthology – Poems by George Zimmerdick February 26 2012”
(Look inside ➴
Oh, dear, what can the matter be
I shot Trayvon and the whole thing blew up at me
I should be the hero, I´m sure I deserve to be
But what can I do, it ain´t fair
One night while on duty protecting the colony
I saw a young hoodie where I thought he shouldna be
To me he looked suspect despite walking leasurely
But what can I do its not fair
I called the police to inform of the suspect
But knew it was useless cos hoodies run fastest
So I tracked and pursued him right down to my lastest
But what can I do it ain´t fair
Shelly supports me and so does O´Money
And Osterman did, but is now acting funny
He has written a book telling more lies than any
But what can I do, it ain´t fair.
Excellent. Will you continue to explain what ain’t fair? Curious minds want to know.
Thankyou! It´s from Zimmerdick´s perspective, i.e. self pity, and I bet he doesn´t think life´s being fair having been charged with murder and all despite it having been “all in God´s plan”!!!
Oooops Xena, did I get you wrong? If it was more verses you were referring to with “explaining” I may finish a couple I had started but got stuck on to round it off.
Please, do add more verses.
Thanks Xena… I have posted finished ditty as a stand alone down thread
Xena, I posted the wrong corrections down thread and had to post again the correct one. I´m hoping the professor deletes the wrong one but should there be two it´s the second one that the final… Hope you like it !
VERY creative mind ! ! !
Thank you grey winter. I´ve added a couple more verses down thread…
gbrbsb…..I remember the original song from elementary school.
Your version works extremely well……I’m actually singing it as I’m reading your lyrics…..lol
“It’s a Wonderful 25-to-Life”
Jose Baez to Judge Nelson just filed:
Click to access Notice%20of%20Filing.pdf
More screw-ups by BDLR.
Thanks, grahase, interesting.
I have tried to find the correct link for the files under judge Debra Nelson. But couldn’t find it. How did you get there?
Yes BDLR was disappointing so far, both in his motions and in his appearances in court. I was expecting more from the little encounter with GZ on the stand during the first bond hearing. In this case though, it feels he may have put it more vaguely, kind of as a half question, like: didn’t ****? Ok, still spreading rumor.
“It has come to my attention”, nice. You mean MOM or DW or the other two told you?
scribd.com
here’s the link
http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html
Remains the same, still same case. I should have realized.
http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html
I dont understand the filing. Is Jose Baez now one of the lawyers?
No. It was something I never noticed or didn’t hear. Apparently BDLR told Judge Nelson that Jose Baez had been held in contempt during the Anthony trial for telling the press something he shouldn’t or for something like that. He was enraged, as well he should be if it was not true (and apparently it was not). So he wrote to the judge with copies to the lawyers, saying that (a) it was false; and (b) he was not held in contempt ever by the judge in that case; and (c) he hopes BDLR will check facts before blabbing about lawyers in the future. I have no problem with this and actually I have no problem with Jose Baez or with what he did in the Anthony case. I believe he did a bang-up job with the case from Hell and he appears to have maintained ethical conduct all the while. Notice he did not want George’s case. HA HA HA!!
I personally felt the investigators did not do that great of a job for the Casey Anthony case. I dont know much about the case because I never read through it but from what I hear it sounded like they did not do very well and should have done a more thorough investigation or trial work. For one, I heard Baez state that Caylee was drowned and personally, that should have been challenged IMO. I am not sure because I did not watch or pay attention to that trial. I only heard of this case because of Russell Simmons.
I have to say this, can not hold it in.
First: I am not American.
Second: I have alot of trouble understanding the American culture.
Third: I am having alot more of a problem understanding Florida culture.
Fourth:I do not live in a country where people are free to carry concealed weapons. I do not live in a country where there is such a racial divide amongst its citizens.
I mean no disrespect. My country has its own problems. My country is no better or no worse – just different.
I have followed this case from the beginning with intense interest. George Zimmerman is a low class nobody who shot a child in cold blood. The evidence is there. Unless there is more evidence that will turn the tables, George Zimmerman is as guilty as sin. I only wish I could prove that he did not act alone.
All this political crap is just that. There should be no plea deal. There should be no immunity. This trial has nothing to do with race. That is left to a higher court. Both O’Mara and BDLR should stick with the basics and there is only one way — Judge Nelson.
All the race issues and political issues have no place in this trial.
Remember O’Mara and BDLR – the world is watching this case. We are all hoping the Martin family will find peace after knowing that justice was served. So, quit with the games and get back to the basics – a vigilante killing of a child who was doing nothing wrong.
In 2008, I met a man who was then living in Germany for a time, and planning to return to his homeland of Scotland. He was really interested in the U.S. presidential election. One thing he taught me was that people in other countries identify racial bigots quickly and have no respect for them In many European countries, people are identified by nationality rather than race.
grahase,
Race is an element in this case in that racial profiling was involved in Zimmerman’s decision to follow and confront Trayvon Martin.
For sure, and GZ’s supporters also support that they see it as racial profiling and are glad about it.
I have to say this, can not hold it in.
First: I am not American.
Second: I have alot of trouble understanding the American culture.
Third: I am having alot more of a problem understanding Florida culture.
Fourth:I do not live in a country where people are free to carry concealed weapons. I do not live in a country where there is such a racial divide amongst its citizens.
I mean no disrespect. My country has its own problems. My country is no better or no worse – just different.
I have followed this case from the beginning with intense interest. George Zimmerman is a low class nobody who shot a child in cold blood. The evidence is there. Unless there is more evidence that will turn the tables, George Zimmerman is as guilty as sin. I only wish I could prove that he did not act alone.
All this political crap is just that. There should be no plea deal. There should be no immunity. This trial has nothing to do with race. That is left to a higher court. Both O’Mara and BDLR should stick with the basics and there is only one way — Judge Nelson.
All the race issues and political issues have no place in this trial.
Remember O’Mara and BDLR – the world is watching this case. We are all hoping the Martin family will find peace after knowing that justice was served. So, quit with the games and get back to the basics – a vigilante killing of a child who was doing nothing wrong.
The defense strategy to try the case in the court of public opinion is combined with asking for financial donations. In essence, MOM and GZ weigh how much support GZ has by the amount of money that is donated to his defense fund.
MOM has not said anything recently about how that is working out for him, but I think we get a glimpse that it’s not working out too well.
As far as tainting the jury pool hoping for one racist to enter a verdict of not guilty, IMO, MOM is going to have a difficult time with that. Why? Because regardless of the race of the victim, GZ is not a likable person. His demeanor in court varies from being distance to stare-down intimidation. Even a member of the KKK might see him as a Latino gangbanger dressed in a suit.
I think it is likely he will be seen as a Hispanic lazy-ass free-loader who thinks he should be supported by everyone else and not have to work hard. Since he’s calling himself Black and Hispanic recently, he should be able to work hard and stop whining. Racists will only love him so long as he gives them cheap thrills and he can be demoted to a “welfare-sucking girly-man” in a quick minute.
That is also my impression, Malisha. Even now, reading comments by his supporters, they are not supporting GZ the person. GZ would shoot them in the heart just as fast as he shot Trayvon if they dared not hand him a $20 bill in his presence.
@ Xena…..I don’t know if you’re familiar with another pro-Zim site called: Still Self Defense, Still Not Guilty-Exposing the liars in the Trayvon Martin Camp.
stillselfdefensestillnotguilty.wordpress.com
They follow this blog (they have a post about today’s comment) and try to discredit the professor and the folks here. It sounds like something that would come directly from R. Zim Jr. or even Sr. Please check it out.
Never heard of it.
LOL! Do I have to???
Okay. I just did a drive-through. They have 5 followers and no comments to (what appears to be) any of the posts uploaded in the month of October. I even went back to July, but there are no comments. I did see some pics from Star Wars. That’s sure to attract mature adults for discussion, right? LOL.
Actually, that blog sounds like one that a person who was banned from here started. Maybe someone remembers — was that back in July?
There’s a certain type of jealousy and retribution nature among the Zidiots that only maybe some psych therapists can explain.
But, you maybe already know my spiritual belief. Let them keep sending negative energy out in defending GZ. That energy led to his bond being revoked, and a million dollar bond then ordered. It led to him being homeless and broke, which exposed him more and caused him to look like a fool on Hannity and Barbara Walters programs. It led to MOM taking down GZ’s FB page. It led to his family living like vagabonds and his siblings unemployed. It led to his wife being charged with perjury.
It will also lead to him spending the rest of his life in prison. It’s all God’s plan.
Grey Winter Sky
I had a look at the HSI (He’s still innocent/wordpress) site you found. I have a hunch it’s huff-poops member “Sh00fly” who runs upwards of 125 socks….the writing style, same argument, some specific terms used over and over. It’s easily rec0gnizable 0n huff-p0 (inserts a zero in place of “o” in it’s c0mments and screen names)
“GZ would shoot them in the heart just as fast as he shot Trayvon if they dared not hand him a $20 bill in his presence.”
That’s how it feels to “us”, not to “them”, they fit into the system comfortably at least to the extend they don’t somehow lean over towards the Tea Party with their own selective choice of scapegoats. I don’t know much beyond the fact that there are reasons for discomfort which the teaparty channels.
You may worry about what could make you suspicious in somebody’s eyes, but “they” can’t imagine that anybody could ever consider them suspicious. After all they are doing always the right thing, just as their kids. The problem is that they cannot imagine their kids could ever be endangered based on what they did. Never mind Trayvon did exactly what these kids do. There must have been something wrong about him, would he be dead otherwise?
If members of the Tea Party are seated on GZ’s jury, they won’t like him either.
I don’t give much credit to bigoted racists for having valid driver licenses to being registered voters. Posse Comitus promoted their agendas that are now touted by “sovereign citizens” and a target state is Florida. They are anti-government. Most have revealed themselves in some manner so that they are on the government’s watch list.
Closet bigots are another animal, but all bigots are proud of their beliefs and cannot keep their mouths shut.
“I have a hunch it’s huff-poops member “Sh00fly” who runs upwards of 125 socks….the writing style, same argument, some specific terms used over and over.”
How about getting more precise and offer a more analysis to Frederick Leatherman? What arguments sound repetitive, what similar words does he use in specific contexts? why not offer a more coherent argument.
For the non-informed it is a standard argument that the other side always consists of “sock puppets”. They can’t really convince anyone, can they? Thus they have to use different akas to give the impression they have a vast support.
What if not?
I am not saying your argument couldn’t be correct. I am only challenging you to take a closer look. Maybe starting by watching him/her?
Ok, relevant argument. So we concentrate on the blogs with more followers?
Leander22. First, I could care less about the blogs of the Zidiots. That particular blog is nothing more than personal attacks. Secondly, people who want to be recognized for their opinions use a name or handle. That blog owner is anonymous because she/he is a coward.
Malisha, did you notice he devoted his last blog entry to you? You are getting famous. 😉
http://stillselfdefensestillnotguilty.wordpress.com/
I should have used this link. “The irony”
http://stillselfdefensestillnotguilty.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/the-irony/
That blog writer is merely baiting, hoping to get something started so he/she/it can have activity on its blog that it can feel proud about. It’s the nature of a bully.
“You may worry about what could make you suspicious in somebody’s eyes, but “they” can’t imagine that anybody could ever consider them suspicious. After all they are doing always the right thing, just as their kids. The problem is that they cannot imagine their kids could ever be endangered based on what they did. Never mind Trayvon did exactly what these kids do. There must have been something wrong about him, would he be dead otherwise?”
I often see similar reasoning in discussions of things like wiretaps and other legalized domestic spying, and other crime-and-punishment related issues. They will basically say that if someone hasn’t done anything wrong, they have no reason to worry about these things.
“I think what you all are forgetting is that Corey would not let this end her career.”
Yes, this is the puzzle piece we have been overlooking. This is brilliant. I am going to relax now. Corey would have to lose all her power and hand it over to Dershowitz if this went “south” — HA HA!
You are right Ravenwolf, not only the scream, but what Trayvon was screaming. That is way O’Money wants the FBI finding, he knows it was that child screaming, and what he is screaming he wants to see if the FBI can to the same conclusion. I’m sure BDLR will make sure to highlight what Trayvon was screaming in trial.
O’Money said he will go down in history for what he is doing. Yes he will for the social networking he did and still lost the case. I really don’t Zimmerman will make it through the trial, when he realize he can’t fake or spin what is being said during the screaming. He will check out like the coward is he. They are keeping drugged up because he can’t handle the twist of fate that he find himself in.
Yeah many of us have touched on that and the fact that GZ will probably take someone else with him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t starting to worry SheLie or O’Money before his meds got upped.
can we please stop calling Trayvon a child. I didn’t feel like a child with 17, did you?. That is something than can be easily attacked. That’s how I got involved in the issue. A soldier can kill at that age.
.Leander22 says: “Can we please stop calling Trayvon a child. I didn’t feel like a child with 17, did you? ”
I think youth or teen is better when referring to Trayvon, but to some a kid who just turned 17 a few weeks before he was killed is a child. I may not have felt like a child at 17, but I was treated like one at times with rules of my parents, curfews, and legally I did not have the same rights as an adult.
No. To a parent, and to many adults, a child who has just turned 17 is a child, even as a soldier. A child can kill at 10. It’s irrelevant.
If you don’t want to call him a child, don’t. I doubt that many here care about being attacked for it. TM brings out people’s sense of protectiveness. They wish they could have prevented this gentle, innocent boy from being stalked and killed. They feel his fear and pain. Likely they would consider him a child if he were 20 years old.
Child is also a term of endearment.
Right, Pooh. More importantly, I think it’s important that we respect the law. Florida law sets forth that the age of emancipation is 18. Furthermore, when I hear people talk about physical appearance rather than age, I think of why the states legislated emancipation statute. Rapists and child sexual abusers no longer have the excuse that they thought because the person was 5’11” that he or she wasn’t a child. The same applies to GZ and the Zidiots.
Ahhh. The memories. At the age of 17;
a), my parents bought my clothes;
b) gave me an allowance;
c) paid my school fees and gave me money for bus fare and lunch; d) delegated chores;
e) made sure I did my homework;, attended PTA; paid for my senior pictures and senior trip;
f) took me to the doctor;
g) instructed me on when to turn down the volume of the stereo; when to turn off the television;
h) bought all the food and told me I had to eat whatever was cooked.
I was dependent on my parents from the roof over my head to my very life. Damn right I felt like a child.
He is a child, he is a kid, he’s 17, he’s a teenager. Why should that bother you that he is a kid? Even legally speaking, he’s nor 18 nor 21 so is not even an adult yet.
Legally Trayvon Martin was a child. He did not have the experience at self-defense that an adult might have had; he did not have the strategic planning capacity of an adult; he did not have the earning capacity of an adult; he did not have adult rights. If his parents had indulged in bitter custody battles and had he, at age 17, wanted to just put the litigation to an end and decide where he wanted to live, he would not have been permitted by a Florida court to do so. A judge might have listened to him but would not have to. If he had decided to sue somebody in his own name without permission from a parent or a court, he could not have done so; he could not have hired a lawyer to get his own intentions into court without permission from somebody. All sorts of things he could not have done. For instance, he could not have gotten a concealed weapon permit so that he would have had a gun in his own holster when George came upon him on 2/26/2012. In these respects, he was still a child. He was a lucky child in that his parents were good parents who gave him all sorts of wonderful experiences and opportunities, and also, that they would never have made his childhood into a bad story, so he was never in the system as a litigant. But he was an unlucky child in that he could be targeted, stalked and killed by a stranger who never knew, didn’t care, and took his life for self-aggrandizing purposes.
OK, I surrender, especially to Malisha’s perfect argument. The problem is that it is the main target on the other side. It couldn’t have happened had they used teenager from the start. But obviously the scream we can hear does not sound like a child crying.
@leander –
We should refer to Trayvon as a “juvenile” because that how he was classified by the County Coronor, who had his dead body in his hands. We should honor that fact.
There is an added level of concern and protection that the legal system affords “juveniles” as contrasted to how it treats adults. Trayvon was just three weeks past his 17th birthday.
Society does not expect 17-year olds to have the worldly experience that adults do, particularly somone ten years older.
Trayvon coped with his attacker as best as he could. Alas for Trayvon, he had spirit, but did not also have a loaded gun.
It was only the concealed weapon that enabled Zimmerman to take on the role of killer bully.
The justice system expects us to care for all society’s children,
not kill them.
Kill all the kids and we, as the human race, have no future.
Tayvon’s screams were that of a terrified juvenile, not an adult.
The jury must hear those screams.
The screams sure sound like a kid to me. Even a few different witnesses have stated it sounded like a kid. I think what is most attributable to the screams being Trayvon is him screaming No No No then bang, the screaming ends. It is obvious the person screaming is the one in mortal danger which was Trayvon, hence the screaming stopped with a bullet
@ Jun…….Since Georgie admitted that he pulled out his gun, and was careful not to shoot his hand, and then AIMED AND THEN SHOT…..I can’t imagine that it was Georgie crying out “No, No, No” while he was getting ready to kill Trayvon. And besides…..Georgie claimed that Trayvon had his hand over his mouth….so how was it that Georgie could even cry out. No matter how Georgie spins the tale, none of it makes any logical sense in the end.
Patricia, absolutely my feeling. A teenager is exactly what he was.
“nodding off sometimes.”
you probably saw more TV reportages, not just the hearing as me. He indeed looks sleepy observed from a different angle. Artificially calmed? Indeed almost as if he would prefer to fall asleep.
Oh I am SURE he would rather fall asleep. For quite a while he has not been able to practice his hobby. The only hero worship he gets is from Shellie or on the wacko-websites. He can’t run around patrolling anybody or reporting anybody for imperfections. Poor George.
He is right, I discovered it on the video about a news conference before the hearing with Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin:
http://tinyurl.com/news-conference-Team-Trayvon
If you watch the first video to the end you are offered six different one. It’s in the right bottom corner.
Maybe he mixed up his pills for the day with the ones for the evening. Or he is on Valium extra forte. Who knows.
I am with you Malisha, considering Shellie’s hero worship, but don’t forget she wouldn’t have developed it, if there wasn’t a trend. Strictly, and my mind is limited, what makes me suspicious about him is that he didn’t trust her to do the things that he ultimately offered her to do from his prison cell, much to her delight. Do I need to tell you more?
Just a general catch all reply some of the things brought up
– Book deal: Unlikely as no one is going to take something like that on without being fairly sure they will make a profit and get back their advance to GZ. There just aren’t enough people interested in him to sell enough books to cover several grand(and he doesn’t paid until that advance is paid back)
-Plea deal: Unlikely because this is GZ we’re talking about. He’s more likely to want to take his chances because he’s so sure of himself and that he did the right thing.
-Playing to the public: I’m a cynic when it comes to people in general so O’Money may just get a juror or two at the START who are favorable to GZ. Will they still be that way at the end of things? Possibly not, herd mentality is a wonderful thing, and it takes a special kind of person to ignore not only what they hear and see from the other side, but also from their peers. As others have stated haring the tape of the screams may go a long way, more so when coupled with GZ’s half assed recreation. Even conservatives have kids and we are humans are wired to be able to judge age based on voice.When Sr. said that sounded like GZ when he was a teen, that is as close as he will ever come to admitting that inside he knows the truth of what was going on and WHO was really screaming. The evidence is there, but the big fat final nail in GZ’s coffin will be that scream.
“The evidence is there, but the big fat final nail in GZ’s coffin will be that scream.”
I completely agree.
But how to explain no one wants to admit it over at e.g. “Talk Left”, or other oases of a pretty different “it could be you” crowd, I am deeply puzzled? Does Zimmerman support create more flexible auditory channels, synapses in the head that make the unfitting fit?
They actually accept these tiny attempts of a scream, and pretend they are exactly the same as the painful roar we hear on the 911 call. And whoever’s comment does not fit is guillotined off by Jeralyn, occasionally with false accusations like, e.g. s/he supposedly used the term neo-nazi, or insinuates race baiting. Mind you, I read the comments before they disappeared, no way! Why? But I firmly stand my ground under LeaNder.
One of Jeralyn Merritt’s favorite terms is:
http://tinyurl.com/JEM-race-baiters,
look how often she uses it.
This must be a very special type of “Left” in merry union with the hard-core conservative/right pro-Zimmerman camp celebrating it’s complete topic take over. I honestly fear this will go mainstream, way beyond what we expect now. A media reverse action, O’Mara and media side by side.
Jeralyn herself tasted blood long ago. Mind you she was always sure that this was 100% self-defense, all evidence supports that conclusion, she always said like O’Mara does now. That’s why she warned early, that this would get really dirty for Trayvon’s family, Crump and DeeDee.
Are the worries of a black mother “race-baiting”?
http://tinyurl.com/what-makes-you-suspicious
” For her son’s whole life, Brown said, she has told him: If someone’s chasing you, run. “What if it’s a kidnapper? Or someone trying to beat or rob you?” she asked.
She stopped walking the dog and shook her head. “But if he runs, does that make him even more suspicious?” Brown wiped her eyes. “What makes someone suspicious? That’s what worries me the most.”
The “good and righteous” further right:
http://tinyurl.com/We-are-all-George-Zimmerman
“George Zimmerman is not on trial because he shot a black teenager during a scuffle. It’s not the facts of the case that brought him here. It’s his name. Had his last name been Pereira, none of this would have gone anywhere. And it’s not the name alone, it’s that in this time and place lynching him will help make the political fortunes of everyone from the man in the White House to his cheerful smiling prosecutor who is already counting her campaign cash and book deals.”
Last but not least, they all cite a Burke quote that isn’t a Burke quote at all. Never mind the cynicism of using it at all to start with. And finally a real Burke quote for Malisha. 😉
http://tinyurl.com/Edmund-Burke
Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents (1770): “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”
Actually leander22, I think it is advantageous to have “segregated” blogs. That way, GZ and his legal team can read all of the comments on the side of justice for Trayvon without weeding through personal attacks and deflections.
For instance, he, a Zidiot, or a member of his legal team can read the following:
BDLR stated in court that the FBI investigation is still ongoing.
He knows that is true, so no matter how many times the Zidiots repeat their mantra of “The FBI decided that George is not racist,” it does nothing to relieve his nervous eating, insomnia, and upset stomach.
I give Jeralyn props for getting her degree and what not for her work, but IMO, she’s an idiot and a dumb bitch. What goes around comes around so I will hate to be her when Karma comes to get her payment. Its aggravated stalking and murder 2. He repeatedly and continuously followed and harassed that kid with a credible threat to his well being and ended up killing the kid.
On the clubhouse vids, when you see Trayvon walk pass a door, then the headlights of a vehicle slowly following him, you just KNOW that Trayvon knows he is deliberately being followed. GZ was not merely “observing.” He wanted Trayvon to know he was being followed. GZ wanted to terrorize or instigate.
It’s my gut feeling that GZ wanted to instigate. Of course, when Trayvon ran, GZ’s felt his plan was spoiled so had to chase Trayvon. He almost lost him had it not been for a love-struck teenage girl calling Trayvon. That same teenage girl shall stand strong, not stutter nor be intimidated or afraid when she testifies. I hereby declare that the spirit of love surrounds her very being so that O’Mara and West will have everything happen to them that they wish upon DeeDee.
“it does nothing to relieve his nervous eating, insomnia, and upset stomach”
I am sometimes a fored insomniac, days force us into a rhythms of limited time, Actually life does. I use a very special drug our bodies produces, if we stay up for a long time, occasionally. it’s one of the naturally produced mood enhancers. I did during the Arab spring, the horrible night live broadcast on Al Jezeera of the onslaught that announced itself, was “in the air” before. I am old now, 62 to be precise, and if you would meet me you would notice the next day. But staying up actually results in naturally produced highs. I know that does not fit the context, but it’s true. Your body has to fight sleep.
Nervous eating? Well he seems to have a tendency to eat more than his body needs but what facts do support you beyond registering that? He may simply enjoy this type of bodily pleasure more than people that either don’t gain weight easily or for one reason or other don’t concentrate on food too much.
Strictly many of these artificial mood enhancers seem to have the effect that you gain weight. Theoretically, it may also be that the vast majority of people that try to fight depression flee into doing something positive for themselves, and that often may be eating.
“I will hate to be her when Karma comes to get her payment.”
As German, I would advise you to not rely on Karma. Besides isn’t that postponed to the next live? Only at that point you reap what you sawed?
I have seen or studied too many people over here, who easily switch from one system to the other. The core problem is that the herd instinct offers shelter that’s why mankind may have developed it, “darwinstically” speaking, and I am not a Darwinist. Quite the opposite. For me that is one of the main features of what the Nazis were about: The survival of the stronger.
In my opinion, Jeralyn is riding the coattails of OM as a defense attorney – she’s done high profile cases and is basking in the limelight. She is also a concealed weapon carrier. You can smell the fear of attack by the mythical black male on her – again, just my opinion, and perhaps an unfair assessment. I have no doubt that she’s also a capable and passionate defense attorney, as Prof. Leatherman has stated.
Leander, the arguments made by Jeralyn are very weak. All of them. The weakness lies in the very fact that she sees Zimmerman’s statements as the ONLY evidence in this case. She ignores all objective evidence while maintaining that Zimmerman’s stories are neither internally inconsistent nor inconsistent with one another (she calls them ‘exoectable minor diviations’). I admire your strength in putting up with Jeralyn, but honestly, I did feel sick (because she is a lawyer and ought to know better!) when I still read her blog . It is also remarkable that the number of participants on her blog has dramatically dwindled. I guess folks don’t like having their intelligence rudely insulted by a moron with an ‘Esquire’ attached to her name.
You never know when Karma comes.
Hi Leander
go take a closer look at Darwin.
There is nothing about survival of the STRONGEST. It is survival of the FITTEST which means “the best suited, the best fit for the purpose” not fittest as in who spends more time in the gym.
And it applies to SPECIES not to individuals. Or rather, to genetic traits which turn out to have a survival advantage under changing conditions. When the environment changes, those specimens who accidentally have a genetic trait that is better able to cope with the change, will survive (some of them at least). The ones less able to cope are more likely to die. This means for the next generation the gene pool has a higher % of the trait that assists survival. As natural environments change fairly slowly, the population is able to slowly keep up with it.. This goes on generation after generation until everyone has the survival gene, and new beneficial mutations spread the same way, until after enough millions of years there is a whole new species.
Very fast changes of environment lead to species destruction, eg the wiping out of the dinosaurs. Or nowadays, man-made changes eg deliberate drying out of of wetlands, faster than the species living there can adapt.
That is very very roughly how it goes.
There are no known genes that protect against being rounded up at gun point and placed in concentration camps. That had nothing to do with Darwin’s theories.
Searching Mind, I understand why one would feel sick. It’s also very lonely over there. Since a sensible voice appears, it’s almost certain, s/he is forcefully disappeared. But I noticed that in other places on the issue.
Aussie, I should have made clear, I did not have Darwin in mind, but special variant they used. It seems to have been some type of commonplace. I can’t think of one single thesis written during the Nazis that did not at least contain a passing allusion. But I also didn’t read too many of them. For the obvious reason.
searching mind:
That was too fast:
Since every time a sensible voice appears…
She has a huge ego, it feels. Many deletions are not based on her own specific Zimmerman comment rules, but seem to be impulsive actions often. At one point I had the theory it may be about somebody challenging her. She seems to take that personally sometimes. Now if you formulate more careful with that in mind the chances are higher you won’t be deleted. So to some extend some deletions may have to do with the protection of her image. It’s different if you point out obvious mistakes. So strictly she accepts corrections. I never figured out what exactly it is, but criticism softened by a little flattery seems to work fine. My comments till very recently, by the way, when I asked for an explanation always disappeared without a comment by her.
I think what you all are forgetting is that Corey would not let this end her career. The FBI, are still investigating. BLDR, stated the SPD has done a great job because, in a way they have. I was actually surprised of the amount of evidence there is, Did SPD make mistakes YES, however there is evidence that they did do somethings right to get us to this point. Omoney, is just blowing smoke, in hopes of confusing the potential jury of the facts in this case. I don’t believe, Crump, or Corey are not aware of Omoney, tricks . I read this blog daily and think you”all are doing a great job. Don’t let the last question throw everybody off.
Omara, SPD, BLDR all know Zimmerman will not walk, they just haven’t agreed on the number of years he will service. Because it is some what political Omara or BLDR will not throw the SPD under the bus, and they will not admit to helping George get a way with murder. Omara’s big idea about the SPD will only get so much traction, because those cops are not crazy they won’t risk there jobs for Zimmerman or Omare. Everyone should stay focus on the evidence. We all know Omare’s gang reads this site, don’t give them any ideas. Oh and Black teen will not fear George if a big IF he walks. George will truly understand what its like to have REAL fear of blacks males and over half the of sane population in the USA. He has let his little delusional mind get him where he is now, he needs to wake the fu– up, take a plea, and start making friends in his new home.
The FBI, will not let this go, Zimmerman is going to take the fall, because SPD messed up so bad, they will get sued, Omara will say he did all he could, go on a few talk shows, write a book. Zimmerman will sit in jail crying about all that man love he getting especially from black males. Rightly so he will take the fall for all the crap he did as well as the ones who has tried to help him.
That was George screaming when he was a teenager
LMAO
That must have been when the cousin went after him with a pair of tweezers.
“He has let his little delusional mind get him where he is now, he needs to wake the fu– up, take a plea, and start making friends in his new home.”
I would love to be for one day inside somebody’s mind who thinks it was all God’s decision after all.
But on a more general note.
It’s feels, we should stop and reflect about what “necessarily” went wrong on our side, or the Justice for Trayvon camp. Defense has a huge strategic advantage in that they can rely on much more information. Ultimately arguments are free as thought, you can choose what specific aspects you emphasize, or the dots you hang your larger story on.
Benjamin Crump/Parks/Jackson/Julison, obviously driven by the frustration, irritation and impatience of Tracy and Sybrina had to get what he could get without HAVING the knowledge O’Mara has now.
I admittedly am somehow enamored with the part of Mary and Selma’s story that GZ walked up and down holding his head, wasn’t it like that? This suggests that he reflected about a story he needed to stick with. A story that is coherent from O’Mara’s perspective now, remember.
The problem I have with e.g. Mary & Selma, is that they are much more easy to attack than e.g. John. If they indeed felt it was a child whining outside, why the hell didn’t they go out and look if they could help? John has the advantage from a jury point of view that quite possibly the anger leading to the fight could have turned towards him if he interfered.
Understand what I mean?
People understandably don’t want to get involved in something that might get them hurt, especially after dark and in the rain . . . and in a state where concealed weapons are common.
In a way, you’re wanting people to do what GZ did. Much better to call 911 ASAP.
Twosides says: “People understandably don’t want to get involved in something that might get them hurt, especially after dark and in the rain . . . and in a state where concealed weapons are common. In a way, you’re wanting people to do what GZ did. Much better to call 911 ASAP.”
You are exactly right. There is no way I would have tried to separate people who are in a physical fight nor would I want anyone in my family to do so. That is what 911 is for.
IMO, that is what hastened GZ’s killing of Trayvon — because residents acknowledged that they heard and saw what was happening. GZ was, as he said, “out of time.”
IIRC, it was John who said he was going to his kitchen for a knife when he heard the gunshot.
Also, things happened very fast. By the time that folks heard the cries and got to their phone to call 911, GZ had pulled the trigger.
There is also fear — fear of retribution. What if the stocky built Hispanic guy wasn’t arrested? What if someone did go out and see enough to know that Trayvon was no threat and it was GZ with the gun, and told the police? Would GZ come to pay them a visit later?
Remember, Serino told GZ that an “anonymous” called said they heard the verbal altercation before things went to the ground. There is no such thing as an “anonymous” caller to government offices. In the least, they have the phone number that the call was made from.
IMO, that caller might be Jeremy. Of course, he will want to CYA because GZ had not been arrested when he was interviewed and gave his sworn statement — but we might hear him lay it all out at trial, including the revealing that he was the anonymous caller. .
I don’t really understand what you mean, no.
The prosecution has ALWAYS had much more on its side than the defense has, right from the get-go, because of two main things: the NEN call recording; and the autopsy report. Crump et al. knew that. They weren’t working blind; they knew that there was overwhelming evidence of some kind of murder, although perhaps they did not know the degree that would ultimately be the right charge.
Mary and Selma make good witnesses and it is John whose testimony changed significantly from the first statement he gave to the final one. I think the reason they did not go outside to help the “kid” is that they did not know self defense, did not have guns, and did not know what would face them out there. Fear is a great motivator; it motivated Trayvon. George tried to pretend that it motivated him, too, but he bolluxed up his telling of the story so badly that it comes out quite “pretend” — as Singleton said.
So I don’t really think the prosecution is in a bad place at all now. It’s just that we will have to tolerate all this whining, fussing, screaming and shouting until the plea or the trial occurs. That is because the defendant in a criminal proceeding has, and rightfully SHOULD have, more rights than the prosecution. We have to preserve that to preserve our way of life in general. Too bad, of course, that if the defendant were poor and/or a minority, he would not be able to access all the rights the Constitution says he should have. That, too, is part of the flawed system. Had Trayvon Martin prevailed that night and not only defended himself but managed to hurt or kill George, he would NOT have the benefits that we now see George having. And there would be no public outcry about it. It would be chalked up to “law and order.”
OK, my American experience is not really valid.
But a crying child still doesn’t sound like a danger out there.
I think GZ could have been shading his eyes from glare to look for his flashlight.
Also, doesn’t he wear contact lenses? Is it known if he was wearing any the night of 2/26?
Selma and Mary were on their way outside to check who was whining when they heard the shot. That is why Selma was outside seconds after Zimmerman shot Trayvon, and she saw GZ on top of Trayvon.
W18’s statements to 911 corroborate Selma’s statements. She describes GZ getting up and walking towards her. Her drawing seems to indicate Zimmerman walking to near the doggie waist can. She also describes GZ as putting his hand on his head, but the person who took her statement describes w18’s body stance when she made that statement as putting her hand on her forhead and bending forward as if looking for something.
@ Mirre –
Re: “She also describes GZ as putting his hand on his head, but the person who took her statement describes w18’s body stance when she made that statement as putting her hand on her forhead and bending forward as if looking for something.”
Note that the description “as if looking for something” was a deduction made by the interviewer of the witness, not the witness herself. That’s a 3rd party interpretation.
Considering this is in the dark of night, and there’s no horizon to peer toward, I instinctively pictured that the actions described GZ’s stunned realization that he is now in deep, deep trouble.
Slapping one’s hand to one’s head, and wandering briefly without any sense of direction is the classic “Holy crap! What am I going to do NOW!” It’s response to the realization that you are facing REAL trouble, a problem you caused yourself (“What have I done???”), and you can’t figure out what you’re going to do.
I’m sure we’ve all done that. Not like we murdered anybody, but we know we’ve done something incredibly stupid, and we’re going to have to pay for it. Note that this is always a self-concerned response (“What am I going to do to get myself out of this jam?”)
It’s not a response that indicates a tragedy just happened, and you have a sense of regret. Certainly Zimmerman has had no regrets about the loss of Trayvon. His sole concern is “look what’s happened to me!” Gbrbsb captures it perfectly with her improv on the children’s song: Zimmerman just feels the position he’s in is NOT FAIR.”
The gesture is known as “Oh no, woe is me.”
Yep, George – woe is YOU.
Malisha, I sometimes don’t understand myself. 😉 Good argument, though. Maybe I watched too many attacks on Selma and Mary? Strictly, I can understand that investigation concentrated on the witnesses that reacted during the events early and accordingly. If you listen to Selma/Mary’s call they clearly didn’t. Which obviously doesn’t make their post event observations invalid. But since there was a verbal exchange with Zimmerman he could neatly twist it into his story, since he knew he was observed.
Jeralyn of course authoritatively selected the witnesses that can be believed. Obviously only the ones that support Zimmerman’s narrative. She is ALWAYS on the side of the defendant, she writes. …
One of her main arguments that didn’t convince me concerning her preference of a specific group of witnesses is that they all live around the T-section, and thus support GZ’s tale. It doesn’t convince ,since sound spreads in a ball-type shape and it is thus really hard to tell were exactly it comes from.
Here is the nugget of her wisdom:
Defense may well pick up on this argument. Have the members of the jury ever tried to follow a sound according to where they feel it comes from? You simply can’t tell. The problem I see, is that there is not a different group of witnesses for a different scenario. Even the fact that Selma and Mary were among the last to respond, suggests they were further off. How will BDLR challenge this tale?
But I haven’t really thought about it satisfactorily.
since he knew he was closely observed at that point. I guess after the shot he could expect it anyway.
In every statement there is a little error and the error gets bigger and bigger until the snake is scotched, Henry Miller, Black Spring.
Marshalette:
“I am 99.9% positive he is medicated up on some type of psychiatric drugs. He even fights nodding off sometimes.”
He used to combine Adderal* and Temazepam, one is some kind an amphetamine, a mood enhancer with an effect comparable to marijuana, the other helps to calm down and help to sleep. It’s seems the two are often combined. There are also a series of drug lovers that experiment with it them. We do not know what he uses now. I don’t think he fights nodding off, but the moment he notices he is on camera he lowers his eyes. But you are correct that he carefully controls his expression.
Remember the prison calls: “my adderall”.
“to kill an unarmed black man because mistaken his wallet as a gun or to beat the crap out of him with batons”
you have this in mind: “He has got his hand in his waistband”, correct? Strictly, when I first heard it, it triggered the image of my favorite cousin when we were young. That was his typical gesture, nothing was there really. At that age you sometimes have troubles what to do with your hands. I think it’s as simple as that. You are aware that George is “mirroring” his own gun onto Trayvon at that point? He know were “he” keeps his gun. He knows he himself is a threat, although he wants to make us believe he wasn’t even aware he had his gun there. His own projection betrays him.
He has projected about other aspects of the shooting incident as well, as commenters on this blog have pointed out.
I love this blog and all the great comments today. Thank you all – you have impressive minds and catch many things I don’t think of.
Personally, I think the media circus will continue but it won’t help the defense all that much. It may make jury selection harder, but things will tighten up during the defense hearing and the trial.
If there’s a plea, we’ll have to be satisfied with it. I think GZ is likely too dumb to take one, if offered, and the Prof said the window for that is likely gone.
Professor, obviously the prosecution checks online activity in a high profile case, but do judges typically not pay any attention at all to media in any form during cases they rule on? Must they look only at properly entered evidence or motions?
Judge Nelson does NOT get any info. from any source other than the court room. And that is great.
The reason Judge Nelson does not get any info. from newspapers or on-line is not that she is forbidden to do so, but that she said, in the hearing two weeks back where O’Mara handed in his “emergency motion,” — Remember, Folks, he LOST that motion — that she does not read or look at anything on-line or in the papers. She said it and I believe it. She’s no dummy. She’s not gonna say that and then, by some slip of the tongue down the line, expose herself to being attacked for having gotten some information outside the actual courtroom and file information. Remember, this judge is smart. (Lester was, too; this is just a special case where his having been angry and honest worked against him, probably much to his ultimate relief.)
Malisha says: ……..Remember, this judge is smart. (Lester was, too; this is just a special case where his having been angry and honest worked against him, probably much to his ultimate relief.)
I think Lester was so disgusted with ShelLIE and GZ, he knew he couldn’t be fair so he spoke his truth with no regard whether he remained the judge in the Zimmerman case. From what I can see the judge on this case is in a lose-lose situation and you are correct, ultimately Judge Lester was relieved.
I am interested in whether a judge is allowed to look at the media too and commented on it a few threads back. I don´t know in the UK let alone the US but I do know that in the US State Vs Conrad Murray, Judge Michael Pastor did look at the media during the trial albeit he kept mute about it until handing down judgement, when, referring directly to a documentary Murray participated in and which was broadcast worldwide a couple of weeks before the end) and in which Murray spoke extensively about the case (he took the 5th for the trial) and denied any blame, error of judgement, fault, indeed any responsibility whatsoever in MJ´s death which he blamed entirely on MJ, Pastor exclaimed indignant, “Yikes! Talk about blaming the victim!”.
(For the record, I´m not a ditsy MJ “fan”… bit old for that I am although I did think him very talented. My interest was the gross medical negligence and malpractice especially when it concerns adults with mental health issues or learning difficulties for whom I have acted as voluntary advocate).
I am not aware of any prohibition in the Rules of Judicial Conduct that prohibits a judge from watching, listening or a reading a news report about a case the judge is handling. Also, there is no rule that prohibits a judge from forming or having an opinion about the case.
There is a rule that requires judges to maintain an appearance of fairness. I believe most judges and lawyers would agree that rule basically prohibits judges from expressing their personal opinions regarding a matter that is before them. The rule also prohibits comments in public regarding the lawyers and the parties they represent in cases assigned to the judge.parties to a lawsuit pending before the judges.applies or the lawyerscommenting and that requirement
Thanks professor. I thought as much, but to clarify, I presume when handing out judgement they can then express their opinion, at least they do over here and Judge Pastor sure expressed it to Conrad Murray!
Nice to see you back and hope all is well.
Thanks for the clarification!
I know Omara will probably try arguing in the face of the forensic evidence but I think the judge and jury would actually be insulted by Omara’s lies, plus he could get in trouble from the bar and criminally charged for falsely presenting evidence.
IMO The judge and jury is going to believe the witnesses and the evidence over George’s lying ass and Omara’s perpetratin’ ass
Amen.
SearchingMind, there simply is no “deus ex machina” that George can use to excuse what he did, and there is no doubt about what he did. He killed an unarmed teen-ager who was not committing any crime, and he did so with malice and ill will. Of course jury nullification is possible but 2012 is probably a bit too early for a jury to come out saying, “If a crazy armed white man comes at a young innocent Black kid and demands his submission to the alleged or presumed white-man authority that kid is not allowed to protest or to defend himself and if he tries he is guilty enough to be killed.”
Whereas I previously thought a corrupt plea deal would be the way out here, I now believe, since Nelson does not read the news about the case and since she is very clear about her responsibilities as a judge, that she will seat a jury. It seems to me, therefore, that the big publicity campaign O’Mara set into motion will not be as successful at the ultimate goal as he needs it to be. And I am glad.
I dont think a majority of people nowadays buy into that racist crap… I think most would see and hear a kid dying and their morals would come into play and they would start questioning Zimmerman…
I think most important is jury selection… even if they get one on there, its still a hung jury and that means they can retry Zimmerman, at 5 to 1 for guilty…
Professor,
The average modern-day racist is subtle and does not want to make his/her racism obvious – especially when he/she knows that the public is watching. He/she always need a deus ex machina to cover his racist deeds and/or omissions. That smokescreen would – in a case as the one before us – be provided by evidence of criminal/thuggish acts by Trayvon and/or objective evidence that (remotely) lend itself for multiple interpretations to the advantage of Zimmerman. The racist would – if such evidence is provided – vote to acquit Zimmerman under the umbrella of “reasonable doubt”. Because (a) no one can point to anything Trayvon did wrong on the night of his murder (yes I said murder) and (b) the evidence against Zimmerman in this case is so strong, O’Mara shall have very badly misunderstood the thought-process and modus operandi of the racist-mind if he relies on (possible) racist juror(s) to get Zimmerman acquitted. Indeed, as LLMPapa stated in on previous thread:
“(…) -Have a 5’11” tall, 158 lb male straddle him in the “mounted” position with his butt on his stomach and knees against his chest.
-Put a plastic “gun” in an IWB holster in the dude on the bottom’s pants.
-Have the one on the bottom “shimmy” his ass off as hard as he can, while the person on top has one hand on his nose and the other on his mouth with his full weight.
With no IMO, JHMO, or MOO verbiage, show me these three things:
(1) How it’s remotely possible for the one on top to ever see the “gun”.
(2) How it’s remotely possible for the one on the bottom to reach and draw the “gun”.
(3) How it’s possible, with the “gun” drawn, to position it in such a way that a bullet could be fired from an INTERMEDIATE distance, to pass through a victim’s heart DIRECTLY from front to rear with NO angular trajectory, 17 ½” down from the top of the head of the person on top.
It should be easy, shouldn’t it? George has already provided the script that must be followed!
Show me these three things are possible and (…)”.
The above is just one of the killer-bullets heading straight towards Zimmerman. If the racist-mind can’t explain away this kind of hard-core geometry/physics based evidence, he (even Adolf H.) will vote to convict. O’Mara has to provide his racist(s) with a deus ex machina he/she/they can hide behind in order to successfully acquit Zimmerman and at the same time not come across as racist(s). So far, O’Mara does not have any, yet.
I generally agree with what you say about people who realize they are racists, but I believe one of the most important lessons to be learned from this tragic case is that most racists do not believe they are racists and vehemently deny what is so obvious to anyone with eyes to see.
Most people do not realize that human perception of the “real” world as as a reality that exists outside of and separate from ourselves is a fundamental misconception. What we call “reality” is an event that we experience, interpret to provide meaning, and recall later.
No one should ever assume that other people perceive, conceptualize and describe the same external reality that we do. Racism is a feature of an erroneous classification system developed by the brain to interpret reality and this is why most racists are not aware that they are interpreting “reality” in an erroneous manner. In other words, they are blind to their racism because they do not realize that their racist views affect how they experience reality.
Amen to that professor
A couple of tactics that are fairly common among the Zimbots are:
Projection. They’re not anti-black racists, anyone who supports TM or believes that GZ should stand trial is an anti-white racist.
Deflection. They’ll bring up any number of cases in which one or more black males were found to be the perpetrators, and claim that if you don’t see TM as a likely agressor, you must be in favor of the perpetrators in these other cases as well.
These and other claims involve a lot of denial. No, it just couldn’t be that they are wrong and TM was a non-violent kid being pursued by a guy who was out looking for trouble. It must be that everyone who believes those things is prejudiced.
LMAO I notice that a lot
They will preach that George is innocent because there is black on black crime
George is innocent because a black guy robbed a white guy 10 years ago
Its racist to investigate George for killing a kid or even charge him
white people are being reverse racismed because George is being charged
They will take away gun rights because George killed a kid and was charged
Its not illegal for George to get out of his car and follow people, thats why he is innocent
Trayvon made a grave mistake because he ran away from George and when he caught up to him, Trayvon defended himself, I mean attacked George viciously
Trayvon had 2 minutes, he should have ran home… because of that George is innocent
LMAO
This is why I think Zimmerthugs are all inbred hicks because there is no other reason to be that stupid
“Trayvon had 2 minutes, he should have ran home… because of that George is innocent”
I hope, I don’t produce a firestorm of rage, but strictly I consider this type of arguments somehow legitimate.
The core problem we have is that our minds are arrested by George’s tale. Trayvon can’t witness anymore and DeeDee is only a minor substitute for that fact, somehow too heavily loaded for my taste too.
We do not know, what parts of GZ’s story are deliberately misleading. Obviously the “looking for an address” is mind up in hindsight. I do not trust that part of the tale at all.
What I always wished, but I guess it is a fantasy, was, that GZ and Trayvon’s movements could be traced precisely by their cell phones. There are quite a few cell phone towers in Sanford. I simply do not know if it is possible at all.
If not but for the fact that GZ got out of his truck to follow Trayvon, the two would not have physical met. Trayvon could have stayed out of the house for hours and not been killed had GZ kept his arse in his vehicle.
Trayvon had the right to be outside of where he was living. He had the right to use his cell phone outside. He had ran to an area with no road for vehicles. How was he to know that GZ would follow him on foot?
The theory that Trayvon remained outside or double-back is based on Trayvon being clairvoyant, knowing what GZ would do, when, how and where. That is the only way the Zidiots can backup GZ’s story that Trayvon suddenly became visible after being invisible.
Xena says: “Trayvon had the right to be outside of where he was living. He had the right to use his cell phone outside. He had ran to an area with no road for vehicles. How was he to know that GZ would follow him on foot?”
Once again, Zimbeciles like to shift the blame onto Trayvon. Maybe Trayvon didn’t want the creepy man to follow him to the home where he was staying.
IMO, it never occurred to Trayvon that the creepy guy would get out of his vehicle to follow him on foot.
What has not been discussed is whether Trayvon could have entered through the patio door. He might have needed to walk down RVC and around the corner to enter the townhouse through the front door. Didn’t want to do that (that makes him visible on a road where the creepy guy might be), so waited to end his call with DeeDee and then call Chad to open the patio door for him.
No matter Trayvon’s reason, it was GZ who left his truck for a malicious purpose. It was GZ who remained out of his truck for a malicious purpose —“Can you have them call for my location?” Clearly, he had not planned on returning to his vehicle before the cops arrived.
See Malisha my bad typing abilities. How can one get from a if to an i on the opposite side of the keyboard? 😉
made up, I meant, obviously.
The 2 minutes ran home theory is a load of crap…
just because you didnt run home like a cheetah or make it home fast enough, it doesnt mean that you deserved to be killed and the killer acted in self defense…
in actuality, the 2 minutes then becomes… what the hell was George doing for 2 minutes? If his intention was to go back to his car, why wasnt he there? The witnesses never place them fighting at the T intersection
“What has not been discussed is whether Trayvon could have entered through the patio door. He might have needed to walk down RVC and around the corner to enter the townhouse through the front door. Didn’t want to do that (that makes him visible on a road where the creepy guy might be), so waited to end his call with DeeDee and then call Chad to open the patio door for him.”
Good point, Xena. A possibility that I have considered is that the patio door to the townhouse might have been locked ( and maybe Trayvon didn’t know that until he got there and then found that he couldn’t get in). I hadn’t thought about the possibility that he might have wanted to call Chad to unlock that door rather than going around to the front, but it seems reasonable.
In which case, thinking he had lost the creepy guy and talking to DeeDee, he was in no hurry to end his call with DeeDee to call Chad.
Trayvon was on that dark dog path, alone, tired and frightened. It would be better for him to have the company of DeeDee via phone, than to end his call right away to phone Chad or take a chance of walking on RVC to the front of the house. The creepy guy was in a vehicle — so Trayvon thought. Who knows? Trayvon might have been keeping an eye out to see whether the creepy guy was DRIVING down RVC with no idea he would see him walking from that street.
There’s a certain anger that rises in me when thinking that a grown behind man would hunt down a lone teen on a dark night, play God, end that 17 yr old’s life, and smirk about it.
Professor Leatherman @ 2:57 This is the most excellent verbalization I have ever read re: being racist. If you have not already done so, it would be a good post to expand with any more you could add. Thank you!
I dont know but Nelson did address it and said she would do what is needed for a fair and impartial jury if it was hard to find one and she gave options as to what she would do. She stated that Omara wasnt overriding on being prejudicial but she also never stated that Omara did not state any questionable items (like Omar trying to rile crazies with his do as George speech, when it is unproven, and all thats been proven is George targeted the kid and then killed the kid).
The only way George can actually “get off” is the way SPD originally planned for him to get off: by not having to face the music at all, by not being charged, by not having to answer for his conduct.
Strangely, this was exactly the method used in the South to prevent the 13th Amendment from taking effect. If an individual decided to take away rights from another citizen who happened to be African American, the law simply did not enforce against him. Individual sheriffs did not look into individual killings. That’s the only way to really make sure nothing happens to a murderer, if you can definitely say who did the murder. IOW, if Trayvon had been killed by someone and nobody knew who had done it, that’s one thing. But since everybody including George admitted HE DID IT, the only way to make sure he would not be held accountable was simply NOT TO CHARGE HIM WITH ANY CRIME.
We’re past that now. This big publicity campaign cannot get past the courts because the courts are already involved. The idea that “the cops didn’t want to charge George with a crime so he shouldn’t have been charged” can carry the day would only work if there were NOBODY doing oversight. We have (a) the Feds and (b) the citizens and (c) the press all doing oversight.
I think we need to concentrate on finding more and more culpability. For SURE, if George walks, it will be the result of corruption in the SPD and beyond. Pressure is what got George charged with the crime he committed; pressure can get the feds to come down like a ton of bricks on the corrupt police, prosecutors and others who committed crimes like obstruction, accessory after the fact, perjury, etc. and who indulged in criminal violations of the civil rights act, too. Are they willing to give up their own freedom and get indicted to save George Zimmerman’s sorry behind? Let’s see.
Wolfinger was willing to be corrupt to protect George; is he willing to face indictment and go to prison for it? Lee? Smith? Mahaney? The others? Let’s see.
I honestly dont think he will walk. For George to walk, they would have to ignore all the evidence, including the witnesses, and the audio of the 911 calls, and the screams. They would be setting a precedent in law and unleashing pandora’s box. Do you know how many appeals there would be from prisoners? Oh a woman was screaming while the defendant killed her… oh it was self defense…
Malisha……..Just a thought….Is it possible to create a petition (perhaps change.org) and send it to the DOJ with the problems that you have addressed on this site? It would go world wide and I know for a fact that it does put pressure on the right people to “do the right thing”. Trayvon’s parents used the pressure of a petition to get an investigation started.
Brilliant.
I have to think about who will get the petition started.
I know that I can write it; I probably don’t know how to get it started though. Give me overnight to do a first draft and then we’ll put heads together.
THANKS! 💡
The DOJ emailed me back when I emailed him. He said they were looking into it.
One week from today I will check on my FOIA to the SPD. I’ll keep everyone posted.
For me, organizing some detective work down in Florida is impossible both financially and time-wise. Ideas anyone?
I’m sure Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson have already done it (if only they were the prosecutors, but let’s keep hope in BLDR), my suggestion is to ally with others, without financial means, you are left to doing it old-fashioned way.. by yourself, taking a trip down to Florida, or telephone inquiries. Looking forward to hearing about what you receive from the SPD.
I’m trying… But I believe they need some real warriors in the court house.
Missed u guys… I must say it appears I may be correct in my thinking. The prosecution is jus t too weak. Where are the big guns for justice in Florida. No where… Omara is no dummy and with hate money backing him his strategy is unlimited. I believe the Martin family will only see justice in a federal hate crime trial against GZ. Or in civil court. Excuse my spelling pon iPad now.
…all it takes is one.
@Professor –
That has been my concern. O’Mara is focusing on his “cop consensus” because white conservatives – not necessarily overt racists – want to believe “our guys, the local cops” can do no wrong, since their few contacts with cops have been positive.
Racists feel their only protection from blacks is their ‘thin white line” pushing back: cops with guns.
The State will look like interlopers into what should be “a home town affair” and see Trayvn as an interloper from the big city.
BUT – there is goodness, and sense, among people. Five sane and sober and thoughtful jurors can win over a sixth. There is remarkable teamwork within juries.
And there is that amazing trajectory of the bullet.
What killed young Trayvon Martin is what will win this case.
Well-said.
I want us to think about another issue if George pulls it off to get the racist Florida public so solidly behind him that he can “skate”: no African American male will ever feel safe again anywhere NEAR George Zimmerman. Every AFrican American male will have to understand that George is a threat to him; each and every one of those African American males might have to stand their ground at any moment that George Zimmerman appears! Knowing his past record for killing suspicious African Americans…
Malisha says: “George is a threat to him; each and every one of those African American males might have to stand their ground at any moment that George Zimmerman appears! Knowing his past record for killing suspicious African Americans…”
IF George is not found guilty because of MOM manipulating public opinion he is indeed a dead man walking. I believe he will have to leave the country.
I wish BDLR never asked for the gag order (to be denied) because it makes me fear politics are in play to cover-up the whole sordid mess/corruption in Florida.
I know the deep south have had their issues with racism but look at it this way…
Montanez killed a black guy named Glenn Rich and he was convicted too…
and if George gets offed and the person who does it claims SYG and gets off that would be fairly ironic, especially if the story sounded as bogus as Zimmerman’s story
follow
I thought a little more about this article, and about my comment (above) and I have come to the conclusion that I shouldn’t really worry about it too much. WHY? The plea deal can only go through if the judge approves it. Prosecution and defense can make the plea deal, but then they have to PUBLICLY submit it to the judge for her to approve it. SHE has already gone on record saying, in writing, that there will be an impartial jury seated in this case. She said it now and she means it; it will last; look at Nelson’s record. She doesn’t sell any woof tickets.
We should help set up a fund to get some private investigators on the ground in Florida to find out what needs to be found out about the goings-on between the time of the “founding” of the NW and the date when Corey leveled murder charges on George. I’m not saying any more about it at this moment in time but think on it; that’s where efforts would be well spent.
OAN: I think to win this trail, BLDR/prosecutors would have to expose the SPD and BLDR made it a point to say in court during the last appearance on the gag order that, (I’m paraphrasing) “SPD did a good job investigating and they were still in the process when we took over (again, I paraphrased his statement, but it is mark on).” He made it clear that his loyalty was with the SPD and it’s allies. Why else would he make such a statement? Now, he can not change that and use their actions to show that perhaps a lack of some evidence (drug testing on Zimmerman, allowing Shelly and Osterman to take his vehicle, police stating to witness, “No, the man that was screaming help is still alive.”, etc.) and the handling of the case (Wolfinger meeting to decide to not charge, Chief Lee statement in beginning saying, “I’m sure Trayvon would have done some things differently also, etc.) was the result of a faulty investigation by the SPD in the critical 48 hours after a homicide. The fix is in and I am still hoping that justice will prevail, but when I saw BLDR looking at Omara in court like he wanted to talk/smile with him like they shared a secret (this was only a couple of times and was very quickly done and not that noticeable), then he would pull back into his prosecution mode, I became even more at peace than I was the last time I posted. Trayvon Martin will not be forgotten and that was proven by the ones who fought to get it to trail. But, with the NRA (pushed for concealed weapons and SYG) and the SYG law (several states have this law and this case made some question it) at jeopardy depending on this verdict and the SPD’s coverup (with protection by the prosecution who is supposed to be representing and being a voice for Trayvon by any means necessary), I am beginning to accept the possibly that ZImmerman may walk on this murder trial. His life will never be the same though. After his book deal and first interview, he will have a life of seclusion just like Casey Anthony. But, anything is possible. Looking forward to the best (fingers crossed that I will hear guilty of 2nd degree murder), but expecting the worse (I will still have unwavering respect for those that fought and got this case to national/international attention while acknowledging that a black man’s life does matter…. to some).
People change when they must.
“A Black man’s life does not matter” can be changed all over again if it must be. It was changed once before, then there was all that backsliding. Possum-training exercises.
George would have to prove he was acting in self defense under SYG law. The way I see it, George provoked the whole thing and instigated the whole thing and the kid had no chance. I feel if George walks, the court system will set a precedent and many inmates will be set free for their convictions because now they will claim self defense… I mean if Zimmerman can freely lie and forensic and witness evidence means nothing no more, whats the point? There’s too many eyes for this to be found in George’s favor
” I think to win this trail, BLDR/prosecutors would have to expose the SPD and BLDR made it a point to say in court during the last appearance on the gag order that, (I’m paraphrasing)…”
I consider this a core problem too. His hands are somehow bound, obviously.
The big question is to what extend the larger US public can be pushed towards the second, if you allow, narrative below. From the very start we had two central narratives:
a) a police cover up, (Malisha, please forgive me to call this a narrative for the benefit of a larger argument.)
b) the “race baiters” managed to force the prosecution to charge George Zimmerman with a crime he shouldn’t have been charged with, since it was self-defense, ignoring exculpatory matters.
Strictly BDLR sticks to the official story, investigations were still, or as he puts it, are still going on. Since Corey loaded the whole burden of evidence on DeeDee, she is also exactly at the center were these two narratives touch. That’s why I honestly feared for her observing the latest developments.
The anti-race-baiter side has a strategic advantage. Maybe the average American does not want to be considered a racist? And this is the pivot that allows the perpetrator to be turned into a victim. You only have to concentrate on the threats to kill him, or threaten his family. This maybe on one of the reasons, makes people take GZ’s side.
I’ll try to shut up now. 😉
OAN: I think to win this trail, BLDR/prosecutors would have to expose the SPD and BLDR made it a point to say in court during the last appearance on the gag order that, (I’m paraphrasing) “SPD did a good job investigating and they were still in the process when we took over (again, I paraphrased his statement, but it is mark on).” He made it clear that his loyalty was with the SPD and it’s allies. Why else would he make such a statement? Now, he can not change that and use their actions to show that perhaps a lack of some evidence (drug testing on Zimmerman, allowing Shelly and Osterman to take his vehicle, police stating to witness, “No, the man that was screaming help is still alive.”, etc.) and the handling of the case (Wolfinger meeting to decide to not charge, Chief Lee statement in beginning saying, “I’m sure Trayvon would have done some things differently also, etc.) was the result of a faulty investigation by the SPD in the critical 48 hours after a homicide. The fix is in and I am still hoping that justice will prevail, but when I saw BLDR looking at Omara in court like he wanted to talk/smile with him like they shared a secret (this was only a couple of times and was very quickly done and not that noticeable), then he would pull back into his prosecution mode, I became even more at peace than I was the last time I posted. Trayvon Martin will not be forgotten and that was proven by the ones who fought to get it to trail. But, with the NRA (pushed for concealed weapons and SYG) and the SYG law (several states have this law and this case made some question it) at jeopardy depending on this verdict and the SPD’s coverup (with protection by the prosecution who is supposed to be representing and being a voice for Trayvon by any means necessary), I am beginning to accept the possibly that ZImmerman may walk on this murder trial. His life will never be the same though. After his book deal and first interview, he will have a life of seclusion just like Casey Anthony. But, anything is possible. Looking forward to the best (fingers crossed that I will hear guilty of 2nd degree murder), but expecting the worse (I will still have unwavering respect for those that fought and got this case to national/international attention while acknowledging that a black man’s life does matter…. to some). But, let me know when you set up that fund, I will surely donate.
Marshalette Wise says: “……. After his book deal and first interview, he will have a life of seclusion just like Casey Anthony…….. ”
I doubt GZ will get a book deal. Who wants to read a liar’s lies? (just like Casey Anthony case) I don’t think a book by GZ will be any more successful than Osterman’s. Would love to see another GZ interview just for laughs at what a fool he is. An Oprah interview would be fun.
I also think GZ needs more than seclusion because he set himself up as a target for any black male who “fears” GZ. Unless he leaves the country, he is going to need security the rest of his life. How he is going to pay for it is another story. I can’t see the Treehouse supporters paying for this indefinitely.
Casey Anthony looked like she was living pretty good in her last video post (the one she claimed someone hacked her computer and posted it on a pay per view site… yeah that one) showing affection for her new dog, but never once mentioning her daughter …. someone is obviously footing the bill for her and Zimmerman will be no different. They are probably lining up to do so. OAN: I agree, another interview would be hilarious just for kicks. Zimmerman looks so spaced out in court. I am 99.9% positive he is medicated up on some type of psychiatric drugs. He even fights nodding off sometimes. 😀
Marshalette Wise says: ……..someone is obviously footing the bill for her and Zimmerman will be no different……”
There was a rumor that the Caylee Marie Anthony Foundation set up by George and Cindy was funneling money to Casey. As far as her living the good life. Dr. Phil reportedly donated to this foundation instead of paying for George and Cindy interviews. Don’t know how much is true, but Cindy was apologetic about her daughter so I am guessing Cindy is giving her money.
I guess anything is possible for GZ as well. I am amazed at the support he does have but when I read pro Zimmerman posts, I suspect his supporters have multiple personalities (screen names) and are paid to post or it is GZ and his family/friends (OdessaGirl, Mung) posting. Also maybe O’Mara pays people to post in his efforts to sway public opinion to make it seem Zimmerman is a victim or a hero.
I think Black men have more to worry about than offing Zimmerman because of their “fear” of him… realistically speaking, they have to worry about the unspoken (but, clearly understood) message that is sent to the world (not just America) that not only is it now ok for police (not saying all, but some) to kill an unarmed black man because mistaken his wallet as a gun or to beat the crap out of him with batons, but for a wannabe cop/neighborhood watchman/ regular citizen to do so also (but, this time no wallet just skittles and ice tea).
@ Marshalette Wise : I always thought that the sloppy job SPD would be a way for the defense to attack the reliabilty of the forensic evidence even though many of the mistakes were in George’s favor.
I don’t believe that they bagged Trayvon’s hands which the defense could claim accounts for the fact that none of George’s DNA was found there.
Of course the police didn’t secure George’s truck after the shooting and the fact that the police didn’t canvass the complex in an attempt to determine Trayvon’s identity.
jm:I doubt GZ will get a book deal.
I disagree with you and agree with Marshalette. The difference is that Casey Anthony was a mother accused of killing her daughter. At the very least she is guilty of negligence since it took her 30 days to report her missing and no one will justify a mother who was at a minimum negligent.
George has already received hundreds of thousands of dollars as a reward for killing a young black man and he wouldn’t have to write a book but just beg for relocation fees so he won’t be gunned down by some ‘suspicious’ black man wearing a hoodie.
I don’t believe George will get a “walk.” He will probably get a plea deal, though. Under 25 years? Probably. Under 10? Unlikely. And then he will have to deal with his “coming out” party…
The investigation done by SPD was not faulty; it was corrupt.
I concur!!!
Marshalette says: “BLDR made it a point to say in court during the last appearance on the gag order that, (I’m paraphrasing) “SPD did a good job investigating and they were still in the process when we took over …..”
Malisha says: “The investigation done by SPD was not faulty; it was corrupt.”
So what do you make of BDLR’s making the point SPD did a good job, etc.
@roderick2012
Oh roderick, don’t you know that he is going to sue each and every one of anyone and make more money off of it than Bill Gates, pull the whole country out of debt and be a hero, then go live on an island with (perhaps Shellie) and all of his outhouse friends?
Omara’s plans wont work. The cop stories of not enough evidence at the time will not get them in trouble and they will stick to that.
Marshalette, since you mention NRA, add http://tinyurl.com/ALEC-PR-Watch. You can search the PR Watch database for Zimmerman related issues.
Just did!!! Thx.. will browse through it!
I dont think the bag hands story from the defense is viable. Trayvon was deceased and put in a body bag and brought to the coroner. His whole body was bagged. Blood would dry and dye into the hands. Plus it would be weird to only have George’s DNA only come off, and Trayvon’s stays on. The plain conclusion is George’s DNA was never on there.
In the end, Omara cant prove George’s dna was ever on there on Tray’s hands or sleeves
After reading Malisha’s comments and about Wolfinger’s background in addition to the fact that the DOJ recertified the Sanford Police Department I don’t doubt that this case will be swept under the rug.
Thankfully my job is keeping my mind off this case which I unfortunately had become obsessed with and just at the time where it’s become a complete circus and it’s obvious that the fix is in to either dismiss it or have Zimmerman plea bargain for something as simple as manslaughter and serve a few months in jail.
I really feel sorry for Trayvon’s family but this just reinforces the fact that the life of a black male is worthless.
What “fact” are you referring to, Roderick?
The fact that racists have sent George hundreds of thousands of dollars and the thousands of comments people have made from behind their computers basically stating that it’s justified to kill a black male because we’re all scary and commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes.
I just wanted to be sure you weren’t creating a “fact.” I look forward to a complete and public accounting regarding all the “donors” to GZ and GZLC. So much about the periphery of this case is masked in shadow.
I met Spike Lee in NYC in a crowded subway once (1990?), he was carrying a portable movie camera with every possible lens on it (must’ve weighed 50 lbs), and when I said something about how impressive the equipment was, he said something like, yeah, but all the Caucasians on this train are scared I’ll mug them.
It could be I misidentified him, but I always remember those words.
Like having to walk everywhere with ankle weights.
We will wait and see. Omara claimed on Piers he doesnt accept racist donors but he has lied publicly a few times and falsely presented information
Fed-up taxpayer, O’Mara already made it pretty clear that this data will remain secret.
Besides who tells us, there are no direct bigger single money flows besides the support pot, e.g. someone hired Don West? Or sponsors Public relations in support of the O’Mara firm. I doubt they are prepared to handle this alone. These people may be more interesting but they also can use the law to protect their privacy. It’s their right to give their money to whomever they want.
I think complete transparency is an illusion. Besides the people supporting Zimmerman have the same right to do so, as you have the right to support Trayvon’s family. What exactly would you to do with the data? These people simply think George did the right thing, since there are so many dangers out there. Just as we think we do the right thing to support the victim’s family, because we find it much easier to empathize with their pains.
It would be much more helpful to understand their diverse motives. or why they stress different data in the discovery than we do.
Or to put it really extremely, how they manage to wrap their mind around the paradox that someone that wasn’t, who he was suspected to be, or followed (profiled) for the wrong reason, “accidentally” justifies the initial suspicion by turning out to be something even worse than a thief: a killer. tonight you are gonna die!
It actually does matter because Hate Groups are terrorists groups on American soil. They are a threat to the security and safety of this country. If Omara is taking money from a Hate Group aka a terrorist group than that says a lot about his ethics. Of course people can donate to who they want, and that is not the issue here, it is Omara’s ethics that come into question because most everything comes with strings attached.
leander22 – I find your comment to be rather confusing. Your last paragraph seems to imply that you are buying Zimmerman’s claims about what happened that evening. Do you? Because the reason that most of the commenters on this blog support Trayvon and his family is not only out of empathy for his family, but because we feel that there are aspects of Zimmerman’s story that don’t make sense, don’t fit well with other facts about the case, and we basically don’t believe that Trayvon threatened to kill Zimmerman or was endangering Zimmerman’s life.
gblock, what you find confusing is that I am trying to play the devil’s advocate. I am not a fan of self-celebratory excises before a final victory, or easy categorizations. Aren’t easy categories (profiling of black males) exactly what caused the tragedy?
At one point I was fascinated by this little piece of evidence from Feb. 12, since it was picked up in diverse variants in the disinformation spread by the Zimmerman camp. Zimmerman the brave protector of his neighborhood. I was also very disappointed that it was never picked up on in the investigation, e.g. in the interviews with Leland Management’s Kent Taylor, if I remember correctly. This is one of the core myth of the Zimmerman side, that the NW actually managed to have people arrested. Who forwarded this information to Leland Management? Can it have been anybody but George?
Retreat @ Twin Lakes @RTL_News
How many people do you think have kept this piece of disinformation firmly stored on their minds, and may in fact not be simple “ziobot’s” but somehow feel he deserves respect for what he has done for his community? …
Jeralyn Merritt, obviously does not belong in this camp. She realizes the image is not correct. So what exactly motivates her? A simplistic legalistic attitude according to Florida SYG should have never be arrested?
What else could be motives? US misjudgments?. Like Grahase I don’t know much about this trend.
My ultimate motive may well be to understand what exactly happened. And like Trayvon’s family to prevent it ever happens again. Otherwise his dead is useless.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” [Edmund Burke]
Personally I am hesitant about good and evil in the post 911 universe. I have also always been hesitant about the self-styled good. But my mind is meandering, the so-called “moral majority”. I came here as a fan of Frederick Leatherman and Malisha, the fighter.
“What else could be motives? US misjudgments?. Like Grahase I don’t know much about this trend.”
I was interested in this topic for a while. My attention was raised by an alternative production of US profs couple who did a very good documentary about a black poet on dead row. Who I met ages ago. I also read about a very interesting investigation by Chicago law students, which ultimately led to the abolishment of the death sentence, if I remember correctly. Not that long ago.
One of the early scenario’s in my head would result in a dead sentence in Florida. I goes something like this.
Remember the verbal confrontation some witnesses registered? Zimmerman did in fact try to stop Martin, he knew police was on it’s way, which resulted in the fight, since George’s suspicion and faux-authoritarian treatment made Trayvon justifiably angry.
Now George was on a pretrial conversion program for violence, never mind that he manged to get the charge reduced. If police had arrived before he shot Trayvon, Trayvon could have witnessed what happened. What juridical consequences would it have had for him?
Leander22. Now, this is something I know about. Northwestern University’s School of Journalism conducted a class project during a semester concentrating on investigative journalism by researching court documents. Things did not come together in some of them and they questioned how the cases were handled. The School of Journalism and School of Law joined together and the Center on Wrongful Convictions was birthed.
In 1985, Rolando Cruz was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. The trial held in DuPage County, was controversial. The victim was a child. Cruz was able to appeal and get a new trial. Venue was changed to Winnebago County where the jury there also found him guilty. Again, he was sentenced to death. Cruz was a petty “thug” and the State did not hold back in presenting his arrest record.
Physical and forensic evidence did not connect Cruz to the crime. There were paid informants involved. It is a very detailed case including LE saying that Cruz confessed.
Cruz did not give up claiming his innocence and after being turned down by lawyers to appeal his case, lawyers with the Center on Wrongful Convictions represented him. He was given a new trial and that time, opted for a bench hearing. The court found him innocent, and acknowledged evidence of conspiracy to obstruct justice by LE. The investigation and trials of the Sheriffs involved is known as the DuPage Seven.
The then State’s Attorney of Dupage County, Joseph Birkett, was a controversial figure in the case. He is currently on the ballot for appointment to the Illinois Appellate Court. All of the DuPage County Sheriff’s was found innocent. At least one went on to become a U.S. Attorney.
It is the Rolando Cruz case that led to then Gov. Ryan emptying death row, and the legislature repealing the death sentence in Illinois. IIRC, it was repealed in 2011 — 26 yrs since Cruz was convicted in his first trial.
What the Center for Wrongful Convictions accomplishes is that those interested in investigative journalism, and students of law, work very well together in ferreting out facts. Journalists look for the who, what, where, when, and law students apply that information to the law.
Now, I’m not associating the students at Northwestern University School of Journalism to internet commenters such as Zimmerman supporters, who have no education, neither are under an instructor, on how to conduct investigative research relevant to the case. That in fact, the impression I get is that the majority of Zimmerman supporters are not familiar with discovery docs and also, they represent theories that actually contradict Zimmerman’s statements.
The link below is an excellent summation of the Cruz case.
Click to access ilcruzchart.pdf
Roderick- cant agree. There’s too much pressure to ensure justice. And too much evidence made available for this to be swept away. If people like you ate already giving up then FOR CERTAIN there will be no justice. I for one will NOT REST until that bastard is behind bars.
cielo62 – Right on. There is no need for plea bargaining. Let the trial begin. The jury will do the right thing.
@cielo62, I’m with you in that, I won’t rest either until George Zimmerman is looking at the world from behind bars. he executed that child and, if that was not enough, he has told LIE AFTER LIE on and about Trayvon. everything he has said that Trayvon said to him, those are the very exact words that he said to Trayvon. the most serious slap in the face that he has done to this kid, is to lie about Trayvon’s cries for help and begging for his life, he is claiming that kids fear and despair as his own. how much lower can this bastard go? Zimmerman is IMO under charged and, I for one hope his charges can be up graded to premeditated M1. I CANNOT STAND THE SIGHT OF THIS OBESE LYING MURDERER OF A CHILD! the same goes for his father and, his homo brother. he is not going to walk no where but to his prison cell.
No one’s life is worthless. Doesn’t seem that way sometimes, but it’s always true.
The individual is magic, but magic is obliterated when stereotyping gets in first.
WOW! Thanks Professor.
Comments at 9…lolol
BTW. Patricia, I’m slowly but steadily getting all of Juniors statements together, and been trying to catch up with the comments on the last 2 posts.
@Shannon,
Thanks for “I’m slowly but steadily getting all of Junior’s statements together,”
What a trooper! Listening to Junior whine on, and on, and on … Pass the Mylanta. and bless you, dear girl!
You are working for a better world for Ally to grow up in.
As we all are.
I have always thought that O’Mara’s media work was not to taint the jury but to make a plea acceptable to the PUBLIC so that when the plea is taken, all voices who would cry out, “FOUL!” can be silenced by the PROSECUTION saying, “Well now, by the time they had so tainted the jury pool we were unable to feel confident about the trial so we HAD to let them plead.” I have been calling this theater for a long time for this very reason. I still do not believe they will succeed at ruining the chances at a jury trial; I believe the purpose of the whole thing is to avoid a trial. Why? For the very reason that this circus, “THEY SHOULD HAVE NEVER CHARGED A CRIME AGAINST GEORGE ZIMMERMAN” was initiated by the defense. Everybody knows that since the prosecutor DID charge a crime, the idea that they shouldn’t have done so is ridiculous. Yet that was the very first attack that happened in April, when Dershowitz came forward screaming (Turley right behind him although a bit more professional in his approach, thank god) while Jeralyn was weeping and wailing that the poor boy had been “overcharged.” What planet did they live on? The planet that knew that if there were a trial, and all the evidence were revealed, it would become clear that George was UNDERcharged. He planned the murder, at least a half minute before committing it, and in Florida law, planning it for even a second is Murder I.
Yet look at the carryings on. No more emphasis on the head-bump. That’s potential evidence; O’Mara no longer talks about evidence. No more emphasis, even, of the broken nose. ALl they talk about now is that the police didn’t want to charge George and Wolfinger didn’t want to charge George and only Corey wanted to charge George. See? Who needs evidence. They throw the emphasis from George’s credibility (=0) to DeeDee’s (so what, you have 18-20 witnesses and we don’t know any of their credibility yet but that is what a trial is for)?
They say NOTHING about evidence.
They are all talking something irrelevant now, something that amounts to a distraction. Why? Both sides want a plea deal. The Defense knows they cannot sell it unless it looks like it wasn’t a “fix” which is will definitely BE. The prosecution knows they cannot sell it unless it looks like they had to agree to it, which they definitely do not have to do.
Both sides cooperating in this. For what? To save SPD; to save face; to save their own political protectorates; to make it look like they never officially cooperated with the wholesale profiling, targeting, and killing of Black youth in Florida. Sure. Tell me a new one.
Meanwhile, Jeralyn may be smart but she’s actually engaging in fooling herself to think that her “left” position is not eroded by her willing collaboration with Florida official and unofficial participation in organized, corrupt, secretive, theatrical, murderous racism. Dershowitz shed his scales long ago and joined the psycho-fascist right in many ways, publicly, and had no more image to protect by the time he adopted George as his poster-boy for innocence violated. Jeralyn is a relative newcomer. How appalling.
Malisha, i can’t imagine anything much gained by a plea for either party, but especially the defense. The florida 10-20-25 to life gun laws won’t gain GZ much. No matter what, plea or conviction, he’ll get at least 25 years min. mandatory sentence..
The prosecution would probably agree to the 25 years if he plead, but GZ would rather take his chances at trial since there’s that teeny tiny chance of an acquittal (jury nullification). Since even if convicted of any lessor at trial, he would still be lookin at 25 years with that use of gun.
@Actually it could Shannon. using the last SYG like case Corey handled as an example Marissa Alexander was offered 3 years for her crime. She rejected the deal, was convicted and given the MM of 20 since a gun was involved but no one was shot. IF a plea was offered, the deal would likely be for no less than 10 years(one can hope).
I doubt they would plea less than 25 years…. I can understand the short sentence for Marissa’s deal, because she at least did not terrorize a kid, she simply fired her gun and almost hit some kids and an adult. I personally would say their starting point for a plea should be 40 years and negotiate from there, because at trial, I think the judge would give George life without the possibility of parole without blinking.
@Jun one could argue that she terrified her ex’s kids by point a gun in their direction. Anyways my point was that the MM for sentencing doesn’t have an effect on what is offered on a plea deal.
Let me add – because I believe all that you have said. I think there will be Federal charges and those charges will yield the same result. So, they are actually pushing (both sides) to pass the buck and let the big guns go to town.
“I think there will be Federal charges and those charges will yield the same result”
why am I so hesitant about this? In other words don’t think it will happen. Remember the public outcry when Obama made a statement about the case? Something perfectly human to do? But suddenly described as race-baiting? I have to admit it feels larger politics will prevent it.
Look at the latest federal decisions in post 911 America. Why not the Holy Land Five? Convicted on the basis of secret evidence? A charity organization that funds hospitals and aid for the wrong people must be suspect of funding terrorism, even if these hospitals also receive official American aid. I may be wrong, but in my head these issues are related. I haven’t followed Glenn Greenwald for a while, but he is one of the best out there on these matters..
I’m sorry but I can’t agree with you. SPD is small potatoes and the GZ trial is a small hometown circus. They can and will ” clean up ” SPD and the Gov will get the credit. In spite of GZs enormous ego, there are literally millions of people who haven’t heard one word about this case. Once a jury of impartial people are seated, GZ will be locked away for decades. Wolfinger has already retired and Billy Lee has moved on. No one left to cover for.
I have been saying this all along. GZ is just a loser being supported by people with their own agendas. They couldn’t care less about him. They don’t even talk about him any more. Their focus is on Trayvon’s family and, in particular, their lawyers. His friends are the only ones that call him the most hated man in America. In reality, he is just yesterday’s news. Time to put him in jail and move on to the corruption within the LE community of Sanford. Let the FBI take over.
Grahase, it’s always wrong to underestimate the other side on the issue and their agendas. Yesterday I looked for the latest polls on the Zimmerman case. This is from the Orlando Sentinel from June 17:
OK, Rasmussen is conservative, and I am not a true believer in polls since they may have their own agendas, and in turn may well produce a herd effect if they are repeated often enough, but there you go:
” In late March, while people were still marching in the streets demanding his arrest, 33 percent of the country believed Zimmerman was guilty of murder, according to a poll by Rasmussen Reports.
The same poll showed that fewer than half that number — 15 percent — believed Zimmerman had acted in self-defense.
Two months later, however, those numbers had flip-flopped. In a May 19-20 Rasmussen poll, 40 percent said they believed Zimmerman had acted in self-defense vs. 24 percent who called him a murderer.
“This, obviously, was a huge news story,” said Scott Rasmussen, founder of Rasmussen Reports.”
I wish, I knew if I can use html tags here, like blockquote or italics. But I haven’t noticed anyone using it.
Thank you for posting those poll results. However, the keyword is WAS. Was the poll taken over the computer, was it possible for someone to participate in the poll more than once, was it a scientific poll and what were the + or – percentage of error. There are all kinds of variables in a poll – how were those who participated chosen. Statistics are always open to interpretation and the variables chosen carefully. For example: Did you know that 100% of humans started out in life drinking milk. As a result, one can interpret the root cause of drug addiction is drinking milk. Stupid, eh. But, I may have been making a presentation to prove my point about the relationship between drugs and milk and I would win. My analysis can not be disputed. It all depends on my agenda.
I dont feel that we are underestimating the state and I feel the state did a fairly thorough investigation
1) Zimmerman gave many different stories of what happened, none of which is consistent with what witnesses stated happened
2) Zimmerman is the only person claiming that Trayvon started the fight and gave him a “death beating”. Not only is that claim preposterous but only Zimmerman claims it, thus, if he does not take the stand, its just gonna sound like a crazy deranged adult who thinks he is Charles Bronson going around accusing people with no proof and targeting, stalking, chasing, terrorizing an unarmed kid and killing him. Zimmerman is the only “evidence” that it was self defense for him
3) Zimmerman has no credibility and is a liar
4) Zimmerman can get up on the stand and give another story but then he would get impeached further on his credibility because he already gave contradicting accounts and thus would be rendered unbelievable and a liar and his story is phony and he just trying to cover his tracks
I feel the state should prepare for various attacks from the defense because it sounds like Omara wants to attack the witnesses, especially Deedee, as well as Trayvon. What sucks for him though is that the evidence authenticates each other.
Grahase, I don’t expect Rasmussen to do the type of error-prone online polls you are alluding to. But check yourself
http://tinyurl.com/Rasmussen-Zimmerman
Fast check: Interview by telephone, 1000 Americans.
This is what they tell us about their methodology:
http://tinyurl.com/Ras-methodology
As far as I can see, they don’t give us their questionnaire though. Which I always like to take a look at. Also interesting would be, if there was a client who asked for the poll and asked for its publication. Maybe there wasn’t. I could subscribe to be able to read the whole article. The problem is, I would like to know before what additional data it contains, which they don’t tell, at least as far as I can see.
Jun, he can’t change his story, he can modify it though, and some of that can be explained away with the argument O’Mara already used: Wouldn’t it be much more suspicious, if he always used the exact same argument. Besides one could argue he misunderstood the question, or that the question was suggestive. Remember when he was questioned by BDLR during his first bond hearing? Did he ever say he felt sorry for what happened? If I remember it correctly he initially says no, but then swiftly corrects himself.
All I remember from that specific event is that O’Mara remained very, very close to the witness box, till he had finished his statement, as if to make sure he said exactly what they had decided on. But strictly that is interpretation.
follow
I am a trained PR advisor among other things, obviously the gzlegal site is something journalists love, easy access, always updated. The problem may well be that the Trayvon side from a journalistic perspective, always trying to be balanced, have a strategic problem too, considering mainstream. I forget all the terms used for “Team Crump” e.g. hate mongers? Racial threat creators? No, actually the terms used were often much worse.
Add to that, didn’t O’Mara initially support a gag order too, but now he completely sides with media. Another strategic advantage, unconsciously they will be grateful for that.
Thanks a lot, Prof. Frederick Leatherman, your last articles were by far the best I have read for a long time.
Robert Jr. stated that he started his media tour around the country because it was too dangerous to return home — threats and such. In keeping with your thoughts, He also said that it was time to go home and continue his interviews, etc. So, it will not be just MOM keeping up with the media presence. We have Shelley coming up with her case, as well. We haven’t heard from the sister and brother-in-law yet. They still have alot of time to take advantage of the media because the Judge has given them permission to do so. Something has to be done. The seeds are planted and will now continue to grow. In fact, RZ Jrs. mantra is – One-By-One, Day-By-Day as quoted in his Twitter. He says this is where MOM really shines.
follow
I was slightly too fast to correct that. nither = neither.
“given the percentages of prospective jurors in Seminole County who are going to be White, conservative or racist,”
I am an absolute nitwit on US legal matters. In her motion against a gag order Nelsen suggested, basically following media lawyers it felt, suggests remedies like a larger than usual “jury venire”. Strictly that does not solve the problem.
My question would be, for the record I am white and firmly in the justice for Trayvon camp, wouldn’t a Jury need to be balanced on the statistical distribution of groups inside the community? Could defense use polls that suggest a high rate of Trayvon supporters among “black” and Zimmerman supporters on the “white” side and somehow declare all black people collectively biased?. I wondered about this, while reading your text. Are there authoritative precedents how to handle such cases?
Another question, see my first sentence above, Does the Fifth Amendment mean he does not ever need to answer, nither in SYG hearing nor in the trial?
Good and valid points…. Professor please address these questions…
@leander22.
GZ never has to take the stand, but that is highly impossible and impracticable for his immunity hearing. The standard for evidence, and the fact that it is decided by the judge, places it within the structures of a civil proceeding. The petition for immunity will be GZ’s petition, and he has to defend it.
His claim is self-defense, and no one else can testify of what GZ felt and believed giving him reasonable belief that he was subject to great bodily harm and/or death. In all case decisions I’ve read concerning immunity hearings in Florida, the defendant took the stand and gave their side of the story for why they needed to use deadly force in self-defense.
thanks, Xena. I wish I had more knowledge about criminal law and legal procedures than I have. I have just checked, usually the defendant is cross-examined over here. Although, similarly to the States he cannot be forced to. I am in Germany.
Although, while thinking about this case I noticed there are special lawyers that train their clients for it. So what?
leander22, my understanding is that the fifth amendment right to avoid answering applies to anyone who potentially could be accused in a criminal case, but if they speak up, they may forfeit the right to remain silent later on. I’m not sure how broadly the forfeiting applies.
Protection against self-incrimination is very broad. One cannot, however, testify and selectively invoke the Fifth to prevent cross-examination. If the defendant chooses to testify in his own trial, every single issue his own testimony covers is then completely open to cross-examination. So in a SYG trial, George would have Fifth Amendment protection against testifying but once he took the stand to testify that he had killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense, he could not re-invoke his right to remain silent about the killing of Trayvon Martin.
This is why O’Mara’s request to Judge Lester to let his client testify but NOT be subject to cross-examination was so ridiculous. I can imagine that George pestered the life out of O’Mara to get on the stand and O’Mara told him it couldn’t be done because of the danger of cross-examination. Then I think George probably badgered O’Mara to ask for the privilege of testifying WITHOUT being subjected to cross. It’s as silly as any of the other bizarre privileges that George has come to expect and that, unfortunately, he has often been given. (“Just let me wash up first before being interviewed, OK?”) (“Just presume my broken nose without an x-ray, OK?”) (“Just take my word for it, OK?”)
So George’s right to remain silent cannot be taken from him. But if he decides to give it up, he can’t take it back.
Malisha, I’m not so sure of that. I’ve looked for case decisions to see if defendants in immunity hearings are covered by the Fifth but haven’t found any.
Here is my basis for thinking that GZ will have to testify at the immunity hearing. It’s his petition. He is saying that he should be immune from prosecution, it’s his affirmative defense and he will need to defend it. That being the case, GZ is not defending himself against 2nd degree murder charges.
In the John Orr case, his petition for immunity alleged that the victim committed assault. The State, representing the victim, has the right to face their accuser.
MOM cannot testify on GZ’s behalf (like he attempted to do at the bond re-do hearing). Only GZ can assert his reasonable person position of fearing great bodily harm or death.
Yep
Basic rules of hearsay… if Zimmerman tries to drop out part way through, his statement is stricken from the record as hearsay
George cannot be FORCED to testify at the immunity hearing OR anywhere else. But if he DOESN’T he cannot get HIS evidence on the record. So an immunity hearing would be an automatic LOSS if he didn’t. He can choose what to do. What he cannot choose is to have the whole thing simply go away.
The burden is on Zimmerman to prove self-defense at the immunity hearing. If he does not testify, I don’t see how he could win the hearing. He will not take the stand because it will open him up to cross-examination and perjury (if he lies), which would damage his defense at the trial.