Prosecution hammers defense with DNA evidence in eighth day of trial in Zimmerman case

Wednesday, July 3, 2013

Good afternoon:

The State hammered the defense with DNA evidence today. FDLE laboratory analyst Anthony Gorgone testified that the defendant’s DNA was not found on Trayvon Martin’s fingernail cuttings or anywhere on Trayvon Martin’s sweatshirt, including the area from the elbows to the cuffs.

Gorgone also testified that Trayvon Martin could not be excluded as a contributor to a bloodstain on the lower portion of right cuff of the defendant’s jacket.

These results are a devastating blow to the defense because they refute the defendant’s story. Given the scenario that the defendant described, his blood and DNA should be all over Trayvon Martin’s fingernails and sleeves.

Judge Nelson recessed the trial until Friday morning at 8:30 am EDT.

The State will be resting its case sometime Friday, possibly before noon.


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661 Responses to Prosecution hammers defense with DNA evidence in eighth day of trial in Zimmerman case

  1. Stormwatch says:

    I hope that at some point during closing argument, the prosecution refers to Trayvon Martin as “The kid.”

    • MichelleO says:

      I’m glad that they are addressing Trayvon as “mister.” It would be totally be disrespectful and comical to address the perp as “mister” and the decedent as “the kid.” I don’t think I would want my murdered son addressed as such in a court of law.

  2. Jose Padilla says:

    He’s not going to testify. He already has his story(ies) in front of the jury. If he testifies he risks imploding and the possible reward is slight.

  3. Fred C (flcarroll) says:

    Something that bothers me is that they (even the prosecution) refer to Trayvon as Mr. -I wish they would refer to him as young man, teen or youth.

    • MichelleO says:

      He is a “mister.” And it really doesn’t make much difference. The jury and the court knows that the boy was 17-years-old. What matters is the preponderance of evidence.

  4. Happy 4th, everyone. Marvin Gaye’s rendition of The Star Spangled Banner is the best 🙂

  5. Malisha says:

    The guy over on the Turley blog who calls himself (and his admitted sock puppets) various kinds of dog really explained the position of a lot of these pro-Fogenites just yesterday. He said he lives in a gated community in FL. He said punks come in from outside “casing” houses and talking on cell phones to each other so they can figure out what to steal next. He says when he sees a punk coming in from outside, he “bite(s) first and ask(s) questions LATER” adding wisely, “especially if they’re talking on a cell phone.” So he is saying that Fogen did NOT kill in self-defense. Fogen killed in defense of his right to kill outsider-punks for talking on cell phones in “HIS” territory.

    I told this cur that any dog who says that is a fine noble animal but don’t pretend you didn’t DO that if that is what you DID. I said Fogen had no balls because HE claimed that he did NOT do that; HE claimed (although Taaffe keeps insisting that “bite first ask questions later” was exactly what Fogen did because he was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take any more) that he was attacked by a foreign dog while he was looking for a number.

    The real deal is this: the mentality of the gated-community-paranoid-white in Florida is “bite first, ask questions later” but since the law is “no biting without due process” they just have to lie to get away with what they believe is perfectly reasonable and their god-given right. It’s kind of amazing, isn’t it? What they admit.

    Check it out.

    Not even Jeralyn really believes Fogen killed in self-defense. He killed in defense of his privilege.

    • MedicineBear says:

      You people (the rabble the gates are supposed to keep out) wouldn’t understand what we in the privileged class have to suffer!

  6. vickie s. votaw says:

    I just thought of something, because the DNA testimony was so confusing for us, it must have been for the jury also. Even if they can’t discuss it yet,they are surely thinking about it, trying to figure out what it means. The more they look at it, I believe the stronger their opinions will be when they have to decide. So, I’m thinking it was good that the ICM (ice cream man) is such an ass.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I’m thinking that since Mantei created a nifty Power Point presentation (overnight!) to argue a motion, the Prosecution will have a nice clear presentation (summary) of the DNA evidence to give the jury (and us) dots to connect.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Omar’s claims that he hope will confuse the jury is that, dna evidence proves nothing because, needed dna evidence might easily have been lost to the rain and packaging.

        What defeats his argument is the fact that the dna that was captured survived. If gz’s dna was under Trayvon’s nails for example, but lost to the rain, then Trayvon’s own dna would also have been lost to the rain as well. Same goes for the stains on the clothing. The odds would not simply wipe out selected traces of dna, it would wipe out as much of Trayvon’s dna as gz’s. So this fact destroys MOM’s arguments.

        I think by now the jury realizes that the long torturous cross examinations by the defense, are borne of attempts to carefully create confusion. Because exposing the truth needs no such work.

        Of course, we are also noting the effects of the defense having to keep the doors closed on gz’s character. MOM must carefully avoid having any witness say anything good about gz or that door flies open. Hopefully before long we will see character references for Trayvon introduced to highlight the defenses dilemma.

    • disappointed says:

      they get the photos. the photos that have the letters. with the reports they will be fine.
      photos of Trayvon’s hoodie has letter A showing on front. Report letter A Trayvon’s bloood.
      Same photos Letters B and C on back of hoodie No DNA found. Just stains. It will be easy to put two and two together. imo I did and I am no expert to struggles or dna. jmo

  7. Sophia33 says:

    Another Zimmerman doing something stupid. Wonder if she is related to George?

  8. Sophia33 says:

    Happy 4th everyone!

    I posted a youtube of Marvin Gaye famously singing the national anthem, but it didn’t post right.

  9. Nef05 says:

    You stated:

    He had less than a dollar and maxed out credit cards. He wasn’t going shopping.

    In your opinion, is there any reason to hold this back, during the case in chief?

    IMO – It goes directly to why he left the house in the first place, and if nothing else shows his story is a lie from the very first sentence. Again, (imo) it practically forces fogen to take the stand, to explain.

    Wouldn’t it be a more valuable tool to use to try to force him to the stand, than to hold it back for rebuttal/impeachment, since there’s no guarantee he’d take the stand?

  10. and happy 4th to all of you!! God /Godess BLESS all you fine compasionte people

  11. diary73 says:

    Did anyone notice that strange look Serino gave O’Mara when he was asked about the spreading of Trayvon’s arms as being an inconsistency? I wish Papa would do a clip on that.

  12. PYorck says:

    I wonder if the WFTV people were right about their eight witnesses. Of course them being wrong wouldn’t be a huge shock, but at least initially Judge Nelson seemed to expect the state to rest, too.

    On the other hand there are some bits that I would have expected to see. For example there is the ME who did the autopsy or the phone location data (we know that at least some exists, even if it may be boring). And then there are those mysterious text messages.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Maybe, and I’m no expert, the prosecution is not introducing anything to do with Trayvon’s civil rights? I don’t know if a bunch of mocking text messages, if introduced in criminal court, would block using them in a civil case. However, Medical Examiner testimony has nothing to defendant’s communications. Ditto for phone location data.

  13. KittySP says:

    Nat Jackson was on HLN After Dark last night and the reenactment segment…she pointed something out that made sense. She asked, does it make sense that given Trayvon was fearful of GZ having been following him…that he would turn down the dark alley(dog path)…or would he proceed over to RVC a lighted path home?

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      He might go down the dark path so the follower wouldn’t see him. Idk

      • Sophia33 says:

        But Zimmerman initially claimed that he didn’t know if Trayvon went down the “T” or down RVC.

        • whonoze says:

          That’s what we call “lying”. From what he told Sean in the NEN call it’s pretty clear he saw TM take off down the dog-walk.

        • KittySP says:

          @sophia – NEN call he doesn’t specify the ‘T’ path…he says towards the back entrance. He mentions cutting between houses with singleton that night and next day during reenactment he says Trayvon took that path(walking)…omits the “running”, and later she calls him on it.

          • Sophia33 says:

            Right. But I swear I heard him say in one of his earlier versions that he didn’t now whether Trayvon went down RVC or the dog-walk. He has lied so much it is hard to keep up.

      • aussie says:

        Trayvon was nearly a grown man. He was not afraid of the dark. He was afraid of creepy-ass. Dark is good for hiding in.

        He’d go down the path to be somewhere a vehicle can’t follow.

        Then he hid in a shadow somewhere and felt safe. Until he saw the creepy-ass behind him on foot. THEN he was real scared. Then it was serious. Then he wasn’t just maybe imagining it.

    • whonoze says:

      Yes it absolutely makes sense. He was trying to lose GZ. Getting the building with Lauer’s unit between the two of them was the quickest way to break GZ’s eye contact. GZ’s headlights were on, illuminating the cut through sidewalk over toward RVC (how GZ was able to see that TM ran in the dark), so TM would not have gone that way.

      • Unabogie says:

        But none of this matches the missing time. Remember, from the time Zimmerman says he’s walking back to the truck (7:12:17) to the time Trayvon disconnects from Rachel for the last time (7:16:00) to the time of the first 911 call (7:16:11), Zimmerman can’t account for his whereabouts. But this is also true for Trayvon. Where did he go during this four minutes? This part of the case has never made sense and it still doesn’t. The only thing that would explain it is that Zimmerman lied about where he first started following, because without that, the time-space continuum seems broken over there at RATL.

  14. something has been gnawing at me,here it is…maybe Serino did not know it at the time he interviewed George Zimmerman,but THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT NOW,that after watching the Hannity interview,it is OBVIOUS,that
    GEORGE IS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR,and LIES ABOUT things,that are easily impeached. (SYG)that is PATHOLOGICAL!

    • concernedczen says:

      Yes, Zimmerman is a pathological liar.

      Also, Serino is a bit of a liar himself. Note how he said agreed with O’Mara that a “burglary tool” was found in the bushes by where TM was 5 days later…then we find out on re-direct that the burglary tool was actually part of the Manolo townhome that had fallen off.

      • in CLOSING, id use SERINO as a tool.and say he couldnt possibly know for sure at the time,but after GOING ON NATIONAL TV…GEORGIE PROVED HIMSELF TO BE A
        he cant be believed if he even said the sky is blue…leave the jury with that

    • aussie says:

      NO. All that testimony is NEEDED to PROVE he’s a liar. The whole world may know it. But the JURY DOES NOT KNOW IT, certainly not officially, unless they hear it in court.

      So I actually hope he DOES take the stand and tell yet another version.

      Professor, is the jury allowed to say to the judge, we’ve heard enough, can’t we go deliberate now please?

      yeah okay I know they can’.t Is it too soon to be taking bets on how long the deliberations will go for?

  15. MedicineBear says:

    Reposting this for those who haven’t seen what most likely punched fogen in the snout.

    • ay2z says:

      If that’s the case, then it would not work for the state’s own expert’s contnetion of the ‘one’ blow to the face causing all that damage. At least she was not asked if a firearm could have caused that blow and all of the other hardly significant ‘trauma’.

      • MedicineBear says:

        Nobody said it caused “all that damage” — one would expect fogen would have at least minor wounds (like the minor cuts and abrasions on the back of fogen’s head) from struggling against someone fighting for their life.

        Since there IS NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE that TM punched him, this is the probable cause for the ding on the right side and tip of fogen’s nose. The facial injuries happening AFTER the shot (after the struggle) is also more consistent with a lack of fogen blood on TM’s clothing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @ay2z — correct

        the state has never disputed martin’s involvement in a struggle from their charging document through their witnesses. i consider this to be wise because the defendant does display sign of injury, albeit minor and significant. should the state try to put forth the concept that martin did not attempt to defend himself, i think it would be hard for the jury to accept without raising serious reasonable doubt.

        i think their course is the right one from a practical point of view. they have proved that the defendant was the original aggressor and i expect they put forth during closing arguments that martin had a right to stand his own damn ground and with success.

    • ay2z says:

      Doesn’t say what kind of load was in that gun, or what would happen if the gun were pushed to a contact shot to be sure, for example, that the shooter was ‘on’ target and would, at the same time, be past his left hand to not hit his left hand with the shot.

      (makes you wonder….. about that left hand and the defendant’s need to have it anywhere out front of himself. If not a fist grab, was it a push away from someone who was wanting to push himself into the gun, and if so, why? Defies common sense, the shooter would likely need to either hold the victim in place to assure the shot would not miss the target area (not to harm innocent neighbors inside or outside their homes if the shot went wide as Osterman said GZ said), or push him away far enough to get his gun in a position to fire in what, if Trayvon was on top, would have been a tight space to extend his wrist, nevermind his full arm extension. Will the defendant testify from his video interview, about that too, with arms and hands in full demo mode?)

      • MedicineBear says:

        Yeah, I’m sure fogen was very concerned about not harming “innocent neighbors” as he was firing a fragmenting bullet into an innocent neighbor’s heart! *scoff*

        • fauxmccoy says:

          medicinebear states

          Yeah, I’m sure fogen was very concerned about not harming “innocent neighbors” as he was firing a fragmenting bullet into an innocent neighbor’s heart! *scoff*

          actually — this clearly demonstrates one of the elements needed to prove M2 that is

          There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

          shooting off a firearm in a crowded residential setting with people in their homes and outside demonstrates a depraved mind without regard of human life (trayvons as well as residents)

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Did Osterman say that? He must have gotten a heart-warming smile going as he thought, “You see? My best buddy was considerate of his innocent neighbors, even as he was preoccupied with murdering an unarmed kid!”

    • vanlch says:

      Wow! Such a kick!

  16. MedicineBear says:

    Conehead West elicited a response from the DNA technician that the lack of blood on the hard surface of the gun could simply mean the evidence was wiped off. Is this doofus TRYING to incriminate his client?!

    The slide on the gun and the scalloped end of the flashlight MATCH the wounds on CAC’s own damn head! All of us have been saying, “Well, there’s no fogen blood on the flashlight or gunslide to prove self-inflicted wounds” and Ice Cream Man says the blood could have just been wiped off. Doofus!

    Does anyone else think it’s very suspicious that the flashlight had NO fogen DNA on it? No fogen fingerprints (even though he was carrying it) — like it had been wiped clean?

    Makes one wonder if fogen wiped the flashlight on the bottom of TM’s light grey shirt, and that’s how his blood got there and the flashlight was cleaned.

    • ay2z says:

      the flashlight had a highly textured surface, not likely to get a print unless they had a smooth surface to test, like the lens cover or bottom.

      The gun, remember, was from a buddy of the cops, and no ‘lock box’ was available, so the gun was made secure and tucked inside the jacket/vest of the responding officer for safe keeping until he could secure it.

      • aussie says:

        It was actually left lying around on the front seat of the cop car, in a plastic bag, while the EMT attended to GZ’s non-inuries in the back seat. Not even locked into the glove compartment.

  17. LLMPapa says:

    You ask me why I love her?

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Happy Fourth of July, everyone!

    May ALL Americans realize that :

  19. ay2z says:

    The jury is going to wondery why the mother of George Zimmerman will not be called by Zimmerman’s own defense, to the stand.

    They must counter Sybrina’s testimony, and use Dr. Nakasone’s expert opinion about close familiial listeners who have been with someone all their life and heard the speaker in all types of situations and conditions.

    A mother for the defense would be the perfect counter…. normally.

    • ay2z says:

      Delay, distraction, deny.

      What options does the defense have?

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Normally. That face doesn’t inspire a lot of sympathy. Plus, she must have had some sort of influence on What her son has become. Ya know?

      • breelee says:

        We know for sure they wont call her? Meaning she’s not on the defense list? If they called her or RZ sr. the state couldn’t ask what a jerk their kid is anyway, could they? I’d pay to hear the electricity story told to the jury.

  20. YQ says:

    After a thorough look at that flashlight, I support the “gun-out” theory moreso than not. Whatever that sound was in the background of the NEN call, it sure indicated to me that GZs hands were super busy. That flashlight had a lanyard attached to it so he didn’t neccessarily have to have a grip on, it would have been hanging from the wrist. So the phone was in his other hand, or in-between head and shoulders to free up both hands to add the extra round.

    • MedicineBear says:

      The gun had 7 rounds in the clip and one round in the chamber before he left home with the gun concealed in his waistband.

      That’s how this gun is typically carried — ready to fire — no racking or loading a bullet necessary.

      • ay2z says:

        Leaving no extra step to correct a bad decision to pull the trigger.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        THrew down flashlight to unholster weapon?

      • YQ says:

        @medicinebear-Okay, that makes sense. Does it rule out simply checking the rack?

        • MedicineBear says:

          You’re supposed to know the condition of your weapon that you are carrying (i.e. you shouldn’t have to check if you’ve got a round in the chamber — you should know).

          On this gun, if you have a round in the chamber and pull the slide back, it ejects the round in the chamber and loads the next round from the magazine.

          It is not normal to carry this particular gun WITHOUT a round in the chamber (mainly because if you did so it would take two hands to rack the first shot before firing — which defeats being able to use it quickly using only one hand).

          GZ carried the gun with a round already racked into the chamber so we know he didn’t have to rack the gun. Also, his holster doesn’t have any sort of strap that would need two hands to draw. Just like in cowboy movies, this gun slides right out of the holster with a quick one-handed draw.

          Here’s a picture of a man wearing a concealed weapon in an IWB (Inside Waistband) holster:

        • fauxmccoy says:

          yq asks

          @medicinebear-Okay, that makes sense. Does it rule out simply checking the rack?

          when checking the chamber, the slide is only pulled back slightly and would make little noise. had the slide been pulled back fully as people would like to think, it would have ejected the round already in the chamber. i just don’t see this as remotely plausible.

      • Tee says:

        Most guns with clips are like this, its not how most people perfer to carry them. My husband is military and he carries when he’s off duty but never with one in the chamber. He always told me that when you keep one in the chamber you are silently saying to yourself, I wish someone would bring trouble. He says that’s just looking for trouble.

        • elle says:

          I live in a concealed carry state. And, not only do I not know anyone who carries, everyone I have asked if they would carry a gun with a round in the chamber says that is pure madness. If you really think people are hiding somewhere and going to jump out at you, you need to leave the country. I also live in the land of bears, and I take walks. There is a bear who I have met under a tree in the backyard, and I do not carry a gun in my yard. I could have touched it. It was busy eating and barely looked my way. I was taking laundry down and did not see it until I removed a sheet.

        • Xena says:


          Most guns with clips are like this, its not how most people perfer to carry them.

          Know what’s funny? When O’Mara cross-examined, he was only able to compare how GZ had an extra bullet to what deputized law enforcement do with their guns. O’Mara actually supported the prosecution that GZ is a wannabee cop.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @medicinebear who states

        That’s how this gun is typically carried — ready to fire — no racking or loading a bullet necessary.

        you know that, i know that as does anyone else with even rudimentary experience with firearms. we will not be able to convince those who are sure that they hear a ‘gun racking’ sound in that NEN tape. although i consider that to be listener bias,

        i am hereby resting in my attempts to argue otherwise, because it is not worth it to me to risk friendships developed here. ultimately, that sound is immaterial to the case so it’s hardly worth arguing and i’ve spent plenty of time doing so, which although i do not regret, i will refrain from now on.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Point well taken — I hereby also abandon any further attempts to explain it. Especially since many arguing the point “don’t carry a concealed weapon and don’t know anyone who does.”

          It is immaterial to this case. Thx for the advice! I’m dropping the subject too.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      COULD THE SOUND BE GZ ATTACHING THE METAL FLASHLIGHT TO HIS GUN? (Gun has a slot at the sight for attaching such a flashlight. Anyone knowledgeable about the sound that makes? Now I wonder if GZ knocked the flashlight off the gun just before shooting, hence the flashlight near the body.)

  21. Judy75201 says:

    The only defense O’Mara/West have for fogen is the “we need more time” defense.

  22. MedicineBear says:

    Thank God for the holiday — I’m going to try to catch up on eight days of lost sleep!

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . . with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” — Declaration of Independence

    Justice for Trayvon. We are ALL Trayvon. Hoodies up!

    Happy Independence Day!

  23. I need to inform folks who will be receiving art supplies that they will be arriving a bit late. I did not figure in my out-of-state trip to Massachusetts for my nephew’s son’s wedding. Please accept my apology. They will get there, but a bit late!

  24. Michael Stewart says:

    Philadelphia rapper, Jasiri X, on last week’s gutting of the Voting Rights Act and the CAC trial.

    Happy 4th of You Lie, fogen.

    Oh you was born black welcome to the curse race
    Oh you was born brown you sure this is your birthplace
    This is America the home of the white man
    Where every other American gets a hyphen
    People of color police shoot us on site man
    And then be like damn I was just frightened
    See just the color of my skin is intimidating
    Here I’m a criminal just based on my pigmentation
    We need God our only mass is incarceration
    We need Jesus cause these preachers got the heart of Satan
    They toast to our death celebrating with ice cream
    Vanilla with the cake cone must be a white thing
    They wanna stop us from voting well what do rights mean?
    If the end result of our struggle can just be wiped clean
    And Zimmerman is a creepy ass cracker
    A racist child murdering liar and bad actor

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Sadly, what he says is true.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Thx for the video — it’s a keeper!

      LMFAO about “Happy 4th of You Lie, fogen”!

      Since he’s partial to the 5th Amendment (not taking the stand because it may incriminate him), let me add:

      Also, Happy 5th of You Lie, fogen!

  25. Deborah Moore says:

    Can you drop me a line? I seem to have inadvertently “lost” your e-addie. (I did a hasty clean up to make more space and now, argh.) If I don’t hear from you, I have another way to retrieve it.)
    Hope you have a good 4th. Yes, folks in this neighborhood started shooting off fireworks, just a few, several nights ago, and they Do sound like gun shots.)

    • My email is public (believe it or not!) I am my name, RachelLeatherman and I am at gmail dot com. It is in the ‘About’ section of my previous website, On that note, I will be re-publishing Frog Gravy onto this site, after the trial. I will edit it, but not change the content, and will add the legal case, with Fred’s help on analysis. Then, I will take a shot at publishing. So far, three Frog Gravy essays are published, in an anthology.

      If anyone is curious about the reality of women’s incarceration, Frog Gravy is lifted straight from my hand-written notes, and as you know (I say this for others) the language is pretty graphic in parts.

      I really wasn’t even kidding about the gunfire. People do that around here. Matter of fact, on that subject, Mr. Zimmerman may want to consider getting down onto his two knees and thanking God he didn’t pull that stunt here, where many folks don’t carry candy to a gun fight, if you know what I mean. I was surprised to learn how many people are licensed to carry. And they do.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Thanks, Rach. You’re a doll.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Looking forward to catching up on FG after trial. Meanwhile, loved the Butterfly film post a few threads back and would urge you to repost for anyone who missed … or meant to get back to it (like me) and didn’t or almost didn’t.

        • We are happy to do this, thank you for the suggestion, and now that you mention it, I will add another beautiful short film, that won awards, so, bring tissues, again.

          I would like to mention that Nick Vujicic, who starred in The Butterfly Circus, has given a good many inspirational talks aside from the movie; he speaks openly about the challenges of his physical condition, and how he has met them, through his spiritual strength. He often speaks in church services.

          The other film is very short, and has less than 10 words in the dialogue. It is powerful, and is called Porcelain Unicorn.

      • Dennis says:

        Fogen never would have done that here in Detroit. I doubt he would have made it out of the neighborhood.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I hope it’s OK that I object to you addressing the pig as “Mr.”

  26. MDH says:

    Luminol detects the iron that is part of the hemoglobin in blood. Rain would merely dilute the iron and allow it to soak into a porous medium such as concrete. The fact that no blood was detected on the concrete is strong evidence that GZ’s head did not stay in that location for any amount of time such that his head was repeatedly push, slammed or shoved. If that was true, then a lot of blood would have deposited on the concrete to be easily detected by luminol. What the back of his head shows is that he returned to an upright position very soon after the scratch on the back of his head, That’s; why the blood trails are down the back of his skull and his blood is on his jacket.

  27. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Here is Trent’s video of the last part of Rachel Jeantel’s testimony with Trent talking at his computer screen.

    Especially take a look at the part starting at 0:11:0 to hear Rachel with Trent’s comments.

  28. chi1224 says:

    I just wanted to say Happy 4th of July to all.
    As the prosecution case winds down and Sabrina’s gut wrenching testimony sure to come on Friday, I feel this constant knot in my heart, I have never been so touched by a case, ever.
    Justice for Trayvon. Hugs to all of you.
    Now, off to a soaking wet 4th here in Florida, and hoodies up!

  29. BLISS says:

    It is not possible that the beating GZ said Trayvon did to him that there is no blood belonging to Z anywhere on Trayvons hands,nails nor hoody sleeves.his supporters say oh the rain washed them away lol.The last time I got blood on my clothes it had to be soaked for days before it came off.

  30. PiranhaMom says:

    The petition to support and show our thanks and love to Rachel Jeantel now has over 25,000 signatures, with many special message sent to this strong, loyal, courageous young women.

    Rachel is the definition of FRIEND!

    Please sign now if you have not already done so:

  31. LLMPapa says:

    The issue in this case is whether Defendant had the right to target, follow, shoot and kill an unarmed seventeen year-old child, to then recite a litany of demonstrably false and internally inconsistent versions of the events, and to now shamelessly attempt to co-opt the mantle of victimhood for himself. ~ Bernie de la Rionda, December 7, 2012

    I must have missed part of the State’s presentation to the jury.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      yes and have they mentioned the NW rules of not carrying a gun….you can’t claim the right to follow based on being NW captain and then claim you aren’t acting as neighborhood watch.

    • Endless Summer says:

      Thanks for posting that. I, too, am concerned that the prosecution has not tied the evidence together in a way that makes a strong narrative for the jury.

      • Prosecutors always have a wind-up witness who ties everything together with charts, diagrams and timelines. I believe they will call FDLE Detective Gilbreath to perform that function. He will connect up all the dots.

        Therefore, I wouldn’t worry about the evidence not being tied together yet.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Can the FDLE witness bring in the kickback of the gun?

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Thanks, Fred. That is comforting.
          Can you confirm something I heard yesterday? If the verdict on 2nd Degree is not guilty, is a further charge of manslaughter sill on the table?
          I am Curious Deborah.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Or, tabled on the sill.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @deborah moore

            yes, the charging document encompasses all ‘lesser but included’ charges, of which manslaughter is one. the prosecution would ask the judge to read the jury instructions for manslaughter before the jury deliberates and tell them if they cannot find the defendant guilty for murder2 then they must consider manslaughter.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Delighted to hear Gilbreath is your pick.

        • Tzar says:

          This is what I am waiting for
          I don’t want the jurors to have to think of figure anything out
          just connect the dots for them in court
          I also am tired of hearing reports about pundits ignoring and twisting the evidence, so once and for all, I would love for the prosecution to make it plain to the world so the lies will stop.

          • aussie says:

            Ha, twisting? I am, STILL reading claims that have already been 3 times debunked IN COURT. Sometimes just old stuff repeated.

            Frighteningly, sometimes the evidence rejected with claims of lies, cover-up and conspiracy. Some will NEVER accept the evidence. That is what scares me in this.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @tzar — even pundits who are obviously pro-prosecution in this case (marcia clark and nancy grace) state some obvious mis-truths about what they are observing in court. both have repeatedly stated that the defendant would have to turn off the safety of the keltek 9mm which we all know does not exist.

            if their grasp of the evidence presented is so poor, how could anyone else’s be any better? i find i am better off ignoring commentary and prefer to listen to the trial itself and this blog. it’s all i need.

          • Tzar says:

            notice I said “reports” of what pundits are saying
            I have religiously stayed away from the media when it comes to this case

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @tzar — wise man you are! i have only caught bits and pieces when the hubster is watching the daily wrap up when he gets home from work. i find them highly annoying however — especially mark garragos. i wind up yelling at him about ‘so mr big shot — how did this all work out for you with yer boy scotty peterson???’

            it’s not worth the aggravation, which is the same reason i avoid any zimpologist sites. what’s the point?

          • We know what we are talking about. They are inexcusably clueless, since the discovery has been released to the public.

          • vanlch says:

            Agreed! I consulted my school resource officer about that particular gun! All they would have to do is talk to someone who knows about firearms. Hollow point bullets! who allows someone whose being seen by a psychologist to carry a gun? He already has issues! Gun must be armed (cocked) to place bullet in chamber. When did he arm the gun??

        • fauxmccoy says:


          so you think the state will call the ME who performed autopsy, Det. Gilbreath and Sybrina Fulton on friday?

          that was pretty much my thought.

  32. diary73 says:

    When will BDLR bring in his own lead investigator? This is the person who can explain ALL the inconsistencies. This is the one who debunk all the lies GZ told.

  33. cj says:

    Doesn’t the absence of Zimbo’s dna on any part of Trayvon’s upper clothing suggest, nay, prove, that he couldn’t have been bleeding during the “fight,” as he was both underneath and on top of Trayvon and nothing was transferred?

  34. aussie says:

    One problem WE are having is that we’ve seen most of the evidence. So everyone’s saying why don’t they say this or show that or bring up the other thing. A few keep thinking the case has been “thrown” because witnesses were not asked their opinions.

    That’s not how it works.

    Witnesses can only be asked their opinion if they are EXPERTS on a topic and that is what they’re testifying about. They can not be asked their opinion about what other witnesses said. Or about anything that has not yet been entered into evidence.

    The jury will only be able to “take home” evidence that was used in the trial, NOT everything we know about from the evidence dumps.

    The witnesses have been called very close to TIME ORDER, in the order in which things happened. This tells the story in the right order. It also means MAYBE a later witness may be able to comment on something an earlier one said, as that is already in evidence.

    A few witnesses were people the defence wanted to call (eg Dr Nakasone who West objected to being called, for this reason). This takes the wind out of the defence’s sails. They can still call them, but they can’t give a very different story, as the State can then ask what about you just said the opposite 3 days ago???

    What’s happened so far? we have
    * GZ’s injuries were minor, not consistent with head slamming onto concrete, and no DNA or blood to indicate Trayvon has anything to do with them
    * GZ was a wannabe cop (haha without that banned word ever being used) who knew exactly what to pretend for a SYG case
    * GZ followed Trayvon by car and on foot, causing him fear ( = stalking = ASSAULT)
    * there was a tussle between them with Trayvon screaming (yep fairly sure the jury heard that right).
    * GZ told numerous stories which don’t match each other and don’t match the above physical evidence.

    That is close to case closed, finished, convicted.

    I don’t think they will call Sybrina. They don’t want her subjected to the same 7 hours of torture Rachel underwent.

    1) asking for acquittal as case not proved is more or less compulsory; they have to do it, the Professor explained once why, something to do with if they didn’t do it they can’t appeal
    2) Judge Nelson will say NO. No acquittal. Call your first witness.
    3) They can choose not to, which is pretty silly if she’s already ruled the prosecution has already made their case.
    4) They can call witnesses (not necessarily GZ) including some who’ve already been called by the prosecution.

    When they’re done, the State can call REBUTTAL WITNESSES. This is when they’ll call Sybrina, to say the scream was Trayvon. Advantage of calling her then? rebuttal witness can only be asked strictly about the item he/she is rebutting. If they call her now, West could go on for a week about her wanting to make money off the death of her expelled thug son.

    They can call on REBUTTAL an expert about the clubhouse videos and the timeline showing GZ story does not add up. (With the advantage of using it against the version he chooses to give in court, if he does at all).

    MOM/West don’t know about this timeline; they were reading CTH, not bcclist and Leatherman.

    They can call on REBUTTAL experts (or demonstrations) of how the shooting had to have happened, for the holes to be lining up as they are.

    So they really have enough already for a conviction, if defence doesn’t call witnesses. If they DO, then prosecution has a second whammy up their sleeves, with the extra details WE already know about.

    Please everyone stop worrying.

    This is NOT the prosecution’s first rodeo.

    It is MOM/West’s first real one.

    They thought they could do it ‘cos they looked at those mechanical cows the have in bars, and figured they could hit the STOP button if things got too tough.

    Sadly for them, it’s Judge Nelson who got too tough, and keeps saying RIDE ON, no off switch for you.

    George Zimmerman already fell off this planet on February 26 2012. Perhaps before the end of this month he will realise it.

    • diary73 says:

      Wow, Aussie. Thank you for that very understandable explanation. I wish the professor would feature your commentary.

      • kittySP says:

        x2. Diary, what was your experience like in court yesterday?

        • diary73 says:

          Kitty, it was the most amazing day of my life. I posted throughout the day yesterday, if you have a chance to go back and read the comments. West almost put me to sleep, as he did most of the courtroom.

          The highlight of my day was letting Sabrina know that we at Frederick Leatherman’s Law Blog love her. I asked her assigned police guard if I were permitted to say anything to her, and she stepped in and told her guard it was okay.

          • aussie says:

            Wow, Diary, that was wonderful. I do hope she felt comforted by meeting a supporter who represents so many other supporters. Poor woman, this trial must be really gutting her, even though it will end in a conviction.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Many excellent points, Aussie.

    • kittySP says:

      Wooohoo! Bravo! **clapping**

      Aussie – you are hitting on all cylinders…

    • MedicineBear says:

      MOM/West are all bull, no rodeo!

      Brilliant post, aussie — are you in the legal profession or just a natural brilliant legal mind?

    • Dennis says:

      Excellent article. I might be able to sleep better tonight.

    • type1juve says:

      Thanks for this post, I am encouraged!

    • ada4750 says:

      @Aussie You wrote that the witness could not give their opinion. But the defense asked for witness opinion all along without almost any objection from the prosecution. Not only that, the defense after greatly altered these opnion in their favor.

      What about the prosecution? Wouldn’t had been easy to ask Singleton and Serino their opinion about the time delay between the moment GZ said “he ran” (ie when he first looked at RVC) and the time of the confrontation. This was a very simple to ask. The jury would have understand right there that GZ’s reenactment was problematic.

      No, not a word from BDLR. Incomprehensible. I am far to be sure to be sure that he will mention it in his closing statement.

      There is many other points like this.

    • ada4750 says:

      Couple more short comments.

      — The time delay i just mentioned is the very heart of the prosecution case. No time delay, no chance that GZ had stalked Trayvon. I just don’t get BDLR.

      — My feeling if Sybrina testifies is that the x-cross will be very short if any. The jury will be very disgusted otherwise.

    • breelee says:

      Aussie, thank you so much! I asked about rebuttal and couldn’t find if anyone answered. IF, the defense rests without calling anyone, will that keep the state from calling witnesses they would have planned to call for rebuttal? So if they don’t call Sabrina or Tracy now, it’ll be too late? Wouldn’t that be taking a chance that some important evidence like the calls, gps, texts, etc. will never come out?

      If its how I’m thinking, it almost sounds like they’re taking a gamble on what they want in. Because of how much they played Casey’s jailhouse calls, I’m a bit surprised none of fogens have been. Was there just nothing there? I saw someone said he made a joke about wearing a hoodie. Would bringing that in be against the rule of showing his bad character? TIA

  35. Opus says:

    This guy should fry. Slamming of his thick skull into concrete and the kid had no blood on his hands or sleeves?? In what universe do the laws of physics suddenly cease to exist?! Blood should have been splattered everywhere. He can play his supporters as fools but he cannot beat scientific evidence.

  36. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Let me put my two cents in for all that’s worth.

    I do not believe that the prosecution is trying to throw the case. Theirs and the reputation of Angela Corey is also on the line. After all four of them have been touted as top notch award winning D.A. professionals who are at the top of their game. I believe that they’re trying to convict Zimmerman.

    The defense is showing their ass by trying to paint a picture that everyone is lying except Zimmerman by asking the same questions over and over, testifying on the sly for Zimmerman in their questions, stalling with frivolous motions, interviews on TV, and a bunch of other sleazy tactics. They have nothing to offer by deception and illusions.

    I believe showing those videos of the police interrogation, the Hannity interview, the DNA, the truth that GZ is the real MMA fighter, the position of Trayvon’s body, GZ’s non-threatening injuries, his mindset, and all the lies Zimmerman has told are enough to convict him. In addition, the defense is trying to milk this case for all the dollars they can get their greedy little hands on. Trust me they’re not working pro bono as they claim. Besides which Mom has to pay for all those expensive renovation he did.

    The decision is not up the attorneys, Zimmeman’s supporters or non-supporters, it is up to the jury whether or not Zimmerman will serve time. We do not know what the jury is thinking. All we know is what the talking heads and TV Attorney’s are thinking, and they are the main cause of all our tensions, doubt, and fighting among ourselves. The HLN media is responsible for fueling the divide among the people because of their thirst for TV ratings and the attitude that is coming across that appears that they take Trayvon’s death for a joke. They’re the ones who keep pissed off.

  37. Woow! says:

    MOM did not want CAC medical records released b/c they showed on the night of the shooting he had Temazepam, and Adderall in his system. This information was leaked by his physician in 2012.

    Allegedly written in the notes was mention that he is paranoid and delusional.

    Surfing the back pages I came across comments that an SPD officer is alleged to have made to someone that CAC is mentally challenged and anyone that deals with him can tell right off and he never should have been allowed to ride along with cops. The officer is also alleged to have said CAC covered more time and distance after leaving his truck that night than he revealed to police.

    CAC is the poster child against personal gun ownership. Pro-gun, 2nd amendment folks should dump Zimmerman and let him pay for his crimes. CAC an example of what every decent gun owner would never do.

    Question: How can you get sucker punched by a teenager that you are following with a gun?

    • boyd says:

      so why is this not getting out?

    • Judy75201 says:

      Woow says, “MOM did not want CAC medical records released b/c they showed on the night of the shooting he had Temazepam, and Adderall in his system. This information was leaked by his physician in 2012. Allegedly written in the notes was mention that he is paranoid and delusional.

      I’ve not seen that, nor that fogen has/had a drug habit. Links?

      • disappointed says:

        I knew about both of the drugs. Adderall can be a dangerous drug for anyone with mental health issues. Maybe Fogen is actually bi-polar and treated for ADHD often times the symptoms intertwine and easy to misdiagnose. jmo I am not a doctor but have a brother in law who had some of the same issues with wrong treatments.

      • Puck says:

        I don’t have a link, but we know GZ was taking Adderall (a combination of amphetamines for treating ADD, basically speed), Restoril (temazepam, a strong benzodiazepine meant for sleep BUT when taken recreationally can cause feelings of euphoria, disinhibition, and a feeling of drunkenness — trust me, I know, I’ve been on it for years for legitimate reasons), Librax (prescribed for IBS, a combination of the first ever benzodiazepine, Librium, which was followed by the more effective Valium by the same inventor a few years later, and another drug used to calm the stomach), and Remeron (mirtazapine, an antidepressant that is notorious for making one fat). On one of his jailhouse phone conversations with Shellie, he asked her to bring them. I think he might have mentioned Risperdal, which is an antipsychotic/antimanic.

    • whonoze says:

      (For the billionth time…) GZ had prescriptions for Temazepam and Adderal. In prescription doses, these are utterly benign meds, as far as the users behavior is concerned, unless possibly if they are combined with alcohol. They do not cause increased aggression, rash judgement, slurred speech, memory lapses — any of the symptoms GZ exhibited on his NEN call.

      AFAIK, no one knows what was in GZ’s system the night of the shooting. I’m absolutely positive he would have showed an elevated blood alcohol level to some degree. If he did have both Temazepam and Adderal in his system, note that those meds basically cancel each other out. Temazepam is a sedative, and Adderal a stimulant.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        whonoze says

        If he did have both Temazepam and Adderal in his system, note that those meds basically cancel each other out. Temazepam is a sedative, and Adderal a stimulant.

        what we would have called ‘goofballs’ in the good old days 😉

        agree with your statement above.

  38. Print this out and hang in there…

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think this is a good place to repost Kindheart’s poem:

      Kindheart101 says:

      We live, We Love, We laugh, We cry,
our favorite word, when young, is “Why?”

      Why do I have to come inside,

      Why can’t I play, and run, and hide.

      Why do I have to come and eat,

      Why can’t I have my favorite treat?

      Why do I have to go to bed,

      Why can’t I sit and play instead?

      And then we grow, and hit our teens,
we test, we push, within our means.

      The Internet, our friends, and phone,

      ensure we never feel alone.

      That night you saw me walking home,
I meant no harm, I was alone.
I only just turned 17,
how could you think I was so mean?

      What did you think I meant to do,

      with just a phone, and skittles too.
You took my life, my Parents cry,

      Oh Zimmerman, YOUR TIME IS NIGH!

      In Memory of Trayvon Benjamin Martin (February 5, 1995 – February 26, 2012)

  39. ay2z says:

    Observation about today, a part that I did not see until this evening. The very short skype interrupted direct by Mantai. Couldn’t believe it was not as expected, nothing about that course was confirmed as gz attending, or even proven he would have read, but hey, figured they had their reasons.

    But one point stuckk out that has never been heard before, which was fogen’s ‘career goal’ provided to Prof. Plesamts (sp).

    Fogen wanted to become a lawyer and a prosecutor. A PROSECUTOR! What for? To help stop those F’n Assholes from getting away as he says ‘they always’ do?

    Prosecutor. Interesting.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Fogen also once told cops that he wanted to be a judge. …This from a dufus who couldn’t pass muster for a 2-year program from a community college.

      Having heard all this subdural hematoma testimony at trial, his new plan may be to become a neurosurgeon just like Ben Casey.

  40. Woow! says:

    Before I call it a night…..

    I was web surfing and came across comments from someone that say they know CAC and that he is crazy (as in loony tunes) and something to the effect he has/had a drug habit (didn’t say which one).

    Have any of you ever heard that?

    • elle says:

      I am not a doctor, but I have worked for a lot of doctors. Him going to his PA a year after he started taking MMA and saying he had started taking the classes to help him sleep is drug-seeking. I will have to look at his records again.

  41. Woow! says:

    I was curious of what the crazies thought about today’s events and ventured over to the treespoopid website to read a few comments.

    It just baffles me how ignorant and closed minded some people are. I found W cross of the DNA guy and watched as much as I could bare. The treestoopid people things W is a genius and the defense disproved the prosecution case b/c the DNA on the sweatshirt is contaminated from being stored in plastic instead of a paper bag.

    Another crazy site says W does what he do to JN to get things on the record for their appeal.

    Another site thinks that CAC is being railroaded.

    Thank God there are more sane people than home schooled inbred bigots.

    • Jun says:

      Ever since the OJ debacle, there have been standards set for DNA and evidence gathering

      The argument is too stupid because at the end of the day, there’s no DNA there from Fogen, so to say something was once there, when there was nothing found is just pure prejudice and unjustified

    • KA says:

      I saw the “spoiled invalid DNA” argument in some comments…

      so if the tech rubbed down all the mid sleeve to cuff and found Trayvon’s DNA and no trace of any foreign DNA, how would some ‘DNA eating bacteria” only eat GZ’s DNA and not Trayvon’s and how did they annihilate every single sample?

      If he was beating him, he would have a LOT of spots….someone the bacteria only liked GZ’s DNA.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      “Another crazy site says W does what he do to JN to get things on the record for their appeal.”

      Talking about appeals shows weakness. A crack in the armor?

    • Xena says:

      There are three areas for DNA testing;
      1. Trayvon’s clothing
      2. GZ’s clothing
      3. Trayvon’s fingernail clippings.

      The only area that possible contamination might apply to is Trayvon’s clothes. Gorgone testified that he examined the clothes for stains. Even IF the packaging contributed to contamination of DNA, it did not erase the stains. If I remember correctly, there were no stains on Trayvon’s clothes that did not test positive for DNA.

  42. What witnesses does the defense have? Other than GZ’s family, there is really nothing left. If they dare say something about how good GZ’s character is… goodness.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      That’s quite restrained…goodness. 🙂
      I like your style, Leroy.
      (I’m slowly getting to know folks here.)

    • Woow! says:

      Any witness CAC have will be a hearsay witness.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Crackhead has them enthralled in much the same way as televangelists sucker their tithers.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      A google search of head injuries.
      The elements of fear.
      Short/Long term memory as it relates to head injuries.
      The need to please personality. (forgot his SYG grade of A?)

      An unreasonable jury, will FIND reasonable doubt.

      This prosecution was lame considering what they had to work with.

      Where is the passion to get this killer with the depraved mind off the street? This display almost too weak . Insulting really.

  43. ladystclaire says:

    When are we going to see the sealed evidence of Zimmerman’s text messages and emails? Trayvon’s phone was torn upside down and, he’s the victim here. on the other hand, Fogen’s information on his phone as well as his computer, was all sealed.

    I feel that even though Trayvon is the victim in this case, the defense made him out to be the opposite in this trial. I’m feeling so let down to the point that I won’t watch the trial. it just wouldn’t be right, for him to sit there in court like he did on national TV, smiling and smirking his ass off, thinking he’s not going to get his ass pinched. I hate the sight of his ass.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      We, for some reason, have information that the jury didn’t see/hear. I think it is important information.

      But, hey I’m not a prosecutor who just received a “prestigious” award……

    • DruDo says:

      lady, it seems that Trayvon has been on trial, not fogen.

  44. KA says:

    I do not think there is a final witness, I think there are two witnesses…the ME and Ms. Fulton, and maybe more.

    The ME will take a while. They have to show the trajectory and the angle. I assume the ME does that.

    • bettykath says:

      They also have to review the autopsy to show that Trayvon’s only injury was the gunshot and one, not two as posed by MOM, tiny scrape on one finger.

  45. Tee says:

    GZ words will convict him, ” he’s running. I only run from something or someone if I fear it or them. The moment Trayvon ran it showed his fear. Spin it what ever way they want those women are going to think of their kids being chased and then running in fear. I”ll say it agsin, I take moms any day.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember on Hannity Fogen said that Trayvon did NOT run from fear? So how dare you continue to consider that a possibility? Great White decent-American Fogen has spogen!

      Knock Knock.
      Who’s there?
      Running in fear.
      Running in fear who?
      I dunno — nobody was running in fear; things just up and happened because of a thug.

  46. HereslookingatYou says:

    I would have thought they might have a blood splatter expert … I know Dale Gilbreath is one and he came out of retirement to help with this case

  47. Who is the blond ding bat on HLN that said “we don’t know if Trayvon ran”? Where do they get these idiots?

    • KateW says:

      That was awful!!! Callous and entertaining to this killer that this child is dead. No remorse, he leans back in this chair like they have it in the bag. He’s Black, no one will care right. Lets all laugh at the dead kid and shrug our shoulders and move on. Lets just party and have a good time. I want to slam his face into the concrete until the smirk is imbedded into it! That is how angry I am.

      • KateW says:

        Taking a life means nothing to this neanderthal or his family. The mocking that he, his family and friends have done since the shooting is atrocious.

      • HereslookingatYou says:

        consider it slammed if he gets convicted…there are folks waiting as we speak for the smirking one…

    • Malisha says:

      Right there we can see the “depraved mind” factor of Murder-2. I wish someone like Jonathan Turley or Jeralyn Merritt would comment on THIS DISPLAY OF INHUMAN UGLINESS.

      First when I saw this I wanted to slap his face; then I wanted to erase from my own memory the idea that my hand would even come in contact with his appalling biological manifestation. Ugh Ugh Ugh ick ewwwww gross gross GROSS! 👿

    • looneydoone says:

      Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but I’d like to see the prosecution play that clip during closing arguments.

  48. Rachael says:

    So did MO’M decide not to talk to Nancy Grace?

  49. KittySP says:

    Good evening, I’m sorry if this may have been discussed previously. I was sitting here watching Jane Valez Mitchell and she’s replaying the 911 call with the screams… And I thought I recall one of the states experts on the voice recognition saying at least one or two of the yells could’ve been George . You hear Trayvon screaming in fear of his life, but right before the gunshot I can clearly hear a more pronounced yell for help that sounds like it could be George. I believe that’s when John G. came out, saw what was going on and George did ‘his yell for help’, just so he can say somebody saw and heard him… then soon as John went in the house is when he shoots…So for me, where this doesn’t make sense, because if I’m in the middle of beating you up and somebody comes out, says to “knock it off’ I’m going to call the cops” and the person I’m beating up yells help, I’m not going to take off and run before the cops come?

  50. John D says:

    I would not be surprised if the defense rests without calling the defendant or any other witnesses because the prosecution’s case is strong and the defendant so hopelessly compromised himself with a blizzard of conflicting and inconsistent statements such that no jury would believe anything he said.

  51. KateW says:

    I didn’t like the laughter when Soft Serve West asks Carter, “You don’t have to wait until your almost dead before you can defend yourself.” Carter then says “No I would advise against it” or something to that effect and it elicits laughter from the gallery and Zimmerman and his creepy smirk and chuckle.

    I felt it was so inappropriate! A KID IS DEAD! A life is gone and this killer sits there with laughter at someone saying you don’t have to be almost dead to defend yourself. I was absolutely disgusted! This man killed someone and it is no laughing matter as he sits there with no emotion and no regrets, as he said on Hannity, at taking a young man’s life after he ASSUMED he was some criminal thug that he decided needed to be put down.

    I hope the jury saw that and was just as angry at that as I was. If it were my child, my son, my daughter and pompous, disgusting laughter and callous smirks at the expense of my deceased child would really anger me. I hope every juror on that panel that is a parent sees past the facade and see the pleasure in he takes in killing this child. Just as he mocked in his jailhouse phone call to his wife, “I got my hoodie on.” Well sir, hopefully you will have shackles on when this is all over.

    • John D says:

      Yes, they are all wicked, evil people.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Big honking shackles, KateW.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      So true. I just keep coming back to the fact that Trayvon was running away. He ignored him, he ran away, he did not want a confrontation. He was not the aggressor. So many people seem to just ignore that this kid’s actions, by running, showed his intent, he was not the aggressor.

    • bellesouth says:

      Didn’t he say he would not have done anything differently and that it was god’s plan? That’s sick.

    • Jun says:

      That could easily be argued that Trayvon feared for his life because he was being stalked and confronted with a credible threat from Fogen

    • nocamo33 says:

      Fogen does not know what appropriate expressions of emotion are. That is, if he has been lying and manipulating all his life to cover up how he hurts others and lives purely for selfish gain, he likely does not know how to express true emotion. That is, if he is always lying, he cannot tell fantasy from reality. He is always putting on a show. All he knows is it is sometimes okay to laugh and show x emotion. Okay, maybe this is one of those moments. WRONG!! There really is nothing for him to be laughing about. He is trying to come off casual and normal and all he seems to project (to me at least) is a warped sense of reality. I actually feel very sorry for the man and hope he does get help. He will never get the help he needs if he does not admit that there is something very very wrong here. The problem with these types is as long as there is a chance for parole, they will never have the incentive to come clean. Therefore he will truly “rot” in prison as he will have no peace or sense of being centered. Whether in prison or free to have a soul that is not at peace is hell in and of itself. I worked with prisoners and former prisoners for many years and am somewhat an authority on the subject (at least the part about attitude and self-efficacy).

      • Malisha says:

        Therapy usually doesn’t have any effect on people who feel comfortable within their pathology. I wouldn’t think Fogen thinks HE needs to change anything. He thinks he’s perfect and people like those he calls the “scheme team” have brought about all his problems; thus, no change possible.

        He’s probably an actual throw-away from whom others will always need protection. I simply mentioned the fact that prisoners DO have holidays and DO have a chance to do something other than just sit and stew in their own negativity. (Of course, many prisoners are actually not guilty of the charges that got them imprisoned, but that’s a different story from this case, where he is apparently guilty of MORE than he will be convicted of.)

      • cielo62 says:

        nocamo~ have you met sociopaths? I think gz is incapable of self-reflection because of his personality disorder. It would take more than prison for gz to realize that his life is messed up. I don’t know how much further down he can go, but he hasn’t hit bottom yet, emotionally or psychologically.


        • nocamo33 says:

          “It would take more than prison for gz to realize that his life is messed up.” I will add him to my prayer list and hope those that “enable” him will take a much more sober approach to his situation. If ZImmerman is part of that community, he is an extension of it. If he is a sociopath and they justify his actions. Than it is not Zimmerman alone that is seriously ill. They too are sociopaths together with him.

          • cielo62 says:

            nocamo~ you are a good soul. People have free will, but gz has no idea how to act or what his moral obligations are to his community. I’m just as happy that he will be OUT of society for a long time. IF he finds redemption, that would be a good thing overall. But not necessary.


  52. bettykath says:

    I think the final witness, if there is only one, is the ME to go over the autopsy. MOM said in one of his questions that Trayvon had 2 cuts on his knuckles. It could be that the possibility of Sybrina may have been gamesmanship. After all the other evidence is in, the jury will hear Trayvon, not fogen. If the defense has the nerve (strike that, they have lots of nerve) to put papaZ on to identify his son, Sybrina may come in rebuttal. Also the clip of papaZ identifying his son as a teenager making that sound.

  53. Deborah Moore says:

    Earlier this evening, I told my husband, George is just woo woo.
    He replied, Low Functioning Woo Woo.
    * (We are not certified anythings, but nuts.)

  54. HereslookingatYou says:

    Don’t ya’ll think the prosecution must be saving some things for rebuttal ? And I think the prosecution purposely didn’t call some witnesses in order to make the defense put on a case.

    • Trained Observer says:


      • Malisha says:

        Also, if they call FDLE, it will be impossible to keep out of the public view the complete story (or nearly complete story) of the cover-up in the SPD. FDLE does want to convict Fogen but does NOT want to hurt SPD. Witnesses who can show that from the day after the murder, it was obvious that it was NOT self-defense, are not going to be sworn in to testify unless it is absolutely necessary to put them up there. Once they’re up there they have to be questioned properly OR it will look like the prosecution has something to hide.

        Right now PROVEN:

        1. Fogen followed Trayvon in car and on foot;
        2. Trayvon RAN and Fogen knew he RAN;
        3. Fogen was not badly hurt at all and had no reason to fear that he would be; and
        4. Fogen announced his ill will and depravity before going on the hunt.

        Right now DISPROVEN:

        1. Trayvon was a superior fighting force and Fogen was incompetent at self-defense without his gun;
        2. Fogen was scared shitless and had to kill to save himself;
        3. Trayvon was dishing out a helluva beating;
        4. Trayvon had some reason, other than perfectly legal self-defense, to attack a stranger.

        I’d say we can see the end of this trial without more.

        FUrthermore, think of it: which witness, Tracy or Sybrina, would be used if it were not for the necessity of protecting SPD at this point in time? TRACY.

        1. He could clear up that he said he couldn’t be SURE it was Trayvon’s voice, not that he denied it.
        2. He could testify that Serino told him (a) Fogen said Trayvon circled his car; and (b) Serino did not believe that.
        3. He could testify that his son didn’t like to fight.

        Yet they’re using mom rather than dad. Why? PROTECTING THE SPD.

        The primary reason for this trial was to preserve the SPD and the only way to do that was to go ahead and sacrifice Fogen, who is guilty anyway, rather than to protect him and let all the corruption of the SPD eventually be exposed as the people refused to accept the fix.

        Suck it up, Fogen.

        • texad says:

          @ Malisha

          I know there are no easy victories, but I have to believe that the State has presented enough evidence to prove that GZ murdered Trayvon Martin with a depraved mind. It will also be an ugly victory, because the jury will not have heard half of the info that proves guilt without question. I agree with you that GZ is a sacrificial lamb. And I believe he is too dumb to know it. I agree that Angela Corey and Bernie want a win while still protecting the SPD.

          I believe that GZ knows something BIG on SPD and this is why they did not initially charge him. I wish I knew what it is, because it is still important enough for Singleton and Serino to testify in a way that was surprising considering their attitude when they were interrogating him. While Don West and Mark O’Mara are the most inept attorneys I have ever witnessed, they are still getting away with far too much unchallenged nonsense. Who is really contributing to the defense fund? I think it is somebody powerful, because It’s obvious the initial supporters are all tapped out.

          Why is the media doing such a poor job of reporting and finding out relevant factual information? If AxiomAmnesia can pay for all court records, I’m sure CNN, HLN, etc. could do the same. They seem surprised every time they hear “new” info that has in fact been available for months. It appears as if they were given a script and they are sticking to it-damn the truth. Does no one at these news stations care that Frank Taffee is a divisive element who adds nothing to an intelligent dialog regarding what happened on February 26, 2012?

          I am saddened that Trayvon Martin has not yet gotten his day in court. Why are there no pictures of him paraded in court each day? Where’s the picture of him looking handsome in his suit with the green tie? Where is the picture of him taking his aeronautical training? where is the picture of him and his dad where his dad is kissing his cheek? Where is the picture of him skiing? for that matter, where is the picture of him on his obituary? I know the State thinks they can’t show these pictures because O’Mara will then want to bring in unauthenticated pictures. It is ugly and it is cruel.

          Lastly, Why does the prosecution not mention his teenage minor status as often as they can? He was a teenager and the State of Florida deemed him a minor child. Why does the prosecution not mention what his hopes and dreams were? I want to hear what Tracey Martin has to say, even though I guess I understand why Sybrina will be the only parent to speak. This case has exhausted me. I can’t follow another trial where an innocent child is murdered. And there will be more. Regardless of GZ’s sentence, there is another case coming up soon where an innocent Black teenager was gunned down – also in Florida.

          These extrajudical murders of young Black people in America will never end as long as the criminal justice system is afraid to say the “R’ word. Racism. I’m going to dust off a friendly paper I’ve been working on and send it to the UN’s INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE ELIMINATION OF ALL FORMS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, because these killings are really human rights issues. If the United States of America is going to posture itself as the policeman of the world, we need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

          • Malisha says:

            Texad, great comment, great idea, thank you.

          • jodiwankanobi says:

            great post. I think they will be breaking out the photo’s for the jury during closing arguments…when they can show them what that man did to this sweet child. The jury will be in tears i think it’s safe to say.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yes, jodi — they cannot show pictures during the trial — it is prejudicial to the jury, with the exception of crime scene and autopsy photos. you can bet those make an impact however.

            all court attendants are told that they cannot wear things such as photo pins or Tshirts which support either side. this is all part of providing as fair and impartial trial as possible.

            at sentencing, however, the victim’s family gets to make their victim impact statements and show photos.

          • type1juve says:

            Excellent post!

          • cielo62 says:

            texad~ a provocative post! I agree, gz is too stupid to realize his guilty ass WILL be sacrificed over this. And considering he has ZERO (even NEGATIVE) credibility, it doesn’t matter if he has “dirt” on the SPD. He’s at a point where no one would believe anything he says, even if he claims its raining in the middle of a thunderstorm.Progress happens slowly and unfortunately it doesn’t happen without victims. Trayvon’s martyrdom will be considered a milestone in this journey. But damn, what a price.


    • nocamo33 says:

      I am “replying” though I have read down to Malisha’s very astute observation. It is hard to argue against that, and I have 0 intention to. But, I want to say, before reading ahead to Malisha and even after, I do share your concerns. I think I was all “amp’ed” up to see the Pros try to demonstrate how it is physically impossible for the Forgotten One to lay on his back, pin Trayvon’s hand to his hip AND grab the gun he was laying on that was inside his waistband. We likely will not see any of that. You and I know there is enough to convict (though we thought these points were key to proving it), but with all the media avoiding the specifics and spinning the case as being lost by the prosecution just because the defense has a few hissy fits and the witnesses say 1 or 2 things that taken out of context, “seem” to suggest innocence (but are demolished on re-direct or re-re-direct), does make me a little concerned (ahh runon sentence). No doubt I lack the confidence that a true student and practitioner of the law would have, precisely because I am not one.

      • Puck says:

        A demonstration of Trayvon’s alleged straddle of GZ and the impossibility of GZ’s being able to get to and unholster his gun (let alone Trayvon’s ability to see it behind him and in the dark) is something that would come in during closing arguments. Once the trajectory of the gunshot wound is entered into evidence before the State rests (I don’t see how they could possibly not have the ME and a ballistic expert come in to introduce this as evidence), they can do a re-creation during closing arguments. They don’t need experts to perform that; just two guys acting out what GZ claims and then what the evidence shows (GZ on top of Trayvon shooting straight down at no angle).

        I think people might be concerned because they think closing arguments will be like opening, where John Guy spoke for a half hour or so. It will take much longer than that as they piece together all of the evidence they’ve entered — including things that seem insignificant to the talking head lawyers on TV, such as the button being right over the gunshot entry of the sweatshirts. WE know what that means whereas it went over the heads of those who haven’t been following the case as meticulousy as we have. Closing is when it will all come together. For now, those in the media who are convinced the State did a bad job or has no case will continue to blather on about that UNTIL closing.

        • nocamo33 says:

          Very good points and shows how little I know about criminal procedural law. I have never in my life followed a case like this from beginning to end. But this one…What you say, makes a lot of sense. I think I personally need to back off this case, because the pressure is building a bit for me and I have been following too closely. I have small kids, a business and certifications to study for. 🙂

          • Puck says:

            Well, I could be wrong about whether a demonstration can be part of closing arguments, but if that’s when all the dots are connected, it would make sense.

            Closing arguments won’t be like opening, when (Westing-time notwithstanding) John Guy spent maybe half an hour outlining the case. They’ll be much longer.

            I’ve never followed a case and trial until this one. I got hooked early last summer. I can’t tell you how many pointless merry-go-round arguments I had with Zidiots on HuffPost before leaving that place forever and fleeing here. It wasn’t long before other “HuffPost refugees” (as I called them) whom I already knew started showing up. And now that the trial is on, I can’t tear myself away from it. In a reply to someone else describing how her life revolves around trial watching, I told how last week I needed to take a shower in the afternoon, but didn’t want to miss anything (I believe it was during Rachel’s testimony) so I ran a bath instead and put my laptop on the toilet seat lid so I could keep watching.

          • For a second there, I thought you said you put your laptop in the toilet.

          • Puck says:

            Ha! I’ve also carried it with me from room to room, watching as I walk. Thank goodness for laptops and wireless!

            Do you think it’s likely we’ll see the prosecution put two guys on the floor to demonstrate the impossibility of a) Trayvon’s being able to see it, b) GZ’s being able to unholster it, and c) managing a contact shot in at no angle?

          • masonblue says:

            Doubt it, but we’ll see.

            Maybe rebuttal, if the defendant testifies.

          • Puck says:

            Do you think the state is saving anything big for the rebuttal? Also, let’s say GZ’s texts are used in the connect-the-dots closing (I’m not sure if only Trayvon’s records were introduced by the phone company guy, or if GZ’s were as well) — can the state just put them up on the projection screen and read them as part of their timeline?

          • nocamo33 says:

            Ha!! “HuffPost refugees”… I think I need to stay away from there for awhile!

          • Puck says:

            Trust me, it’s well worth it, if only for your sanity.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Ugh, and then I went to a national news web page and got “rat-packed”. Why won’t I just learn…? 🙂

  55. Questioning the Struggle

    One of the most riveting moments in the George Zimmerman trial this week was the playing of a police tape that showed Zimmerman re-enacting what he said happened the night he fatally shot Trayvon Martin.

    To say that there are inconsistencies between that re-enactment and Zimmerman’s verbal and written testimony elsewhere is to be charitable.

    For instance, in an interview Zimmerman gave to the police the night of the shooting, he says of Martin: “I was walking back through to where my car was, and he jumped out from the bushes.”

    However, in the video re-enactment, which took place a day after the murder, it’s clear not only that there are no bushes near the sidewalk but also that Zimmerman never mentions Martin’s jumping out from anywhere.

  56. jodiwankanobi says:

    this is what has my stomach in knots at the moment…because this trial is on through out the night in Australia i can only see some of it because i fall asleep…..when i woke during last nights testimony everyone was talking about how it was to be the last day for the states case….but why did we come to that conclusion? was it something BDLR said or is it just rumours from the media?

    It’s troubling because like a lot of other comments i’ve seen i think we still need to hear from the Coroner, Sybrina/Tracy, phone records and very importantly someone from the investigation that actually led to the murder 2 charge……i can’t understand how they can close without all of that important info….so is it just a rumour or is it possible there is only one more witness?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      BDLR and Judge Nelson mentioned the state wanted to close today. But West’s cross of the DNA tech took up too much time. The prosecution fill finish up on Friday. I don’t think anyone knows exactly who will be called – Sybrina is rumored as being a final witness. I’m guessing the coroner would have to testify too.

    • Trained Observer says:

      jodi — keep in mind that July 4 is a holiday, so you Down Under team members can get some sleep from testimony until Friday.

    • KA says:

      So I heard one media outlet say “final witnesses” and name Sabryna and the ME. Another just said final witness…

      I don’t think they know.

      I think the ME will be minimum and then Sabryna

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Well, bless your heart, Jodi (non-wanker)
      What a commitment you’ve made.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Hello Jodi from down under, tell me something, what do your fellow countrymen/women think about how some in this country are supporting this murderer and, smearing this deceased kid’s name as well as smearing his family.

      I can just about imagine that a lot of them are shaking their heads, just like some in other countries are also doing.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        hi lady…to be honest i have not heard this trial mentioned in the media, not to say it hasn’t been mentioned but i sure haven’t heard it. Back when they were pushing for an arrest it did come out in the public but there really hasn’t been much about it.

        In general though, when i’ve spoken to people about it, most think it’s terrible what happened to Trayvon. We don’t have the same gun laws over here, shootings are rare and usually only among organised crime. Our gun laws changed significantly after a massacre in Tasmania where 35 people were killed and 23 injured. Our government took a hard stance on guns and gun crime has reduced. Guns for farmers are ok, sport shooting is ok (but there are strict laws about them taking the guns home i think) and it is not so easy to get a gun license. Guns are not advertised and we are certainly not a gun loving nation so our perception of this is very different. We don’t have people trying to justify this shooting to to defend the right to bear is what i think happens in the US with the NRA and gun lobbies and even having it in the constitution…

        Also as far as race goes we don’t have the history of slavery and it’s legacy. We do have our own racist history however towards our indigenous but i would expect it is closer to the relationship you have with your indigenous…it’s racial, but in a different way that i don’t know how to explain. There are many racist pigs, particularly on the internet but that is where people are cruel about everything, weight, colour, sexual preference etc. because it’s easy to be brave when you are anonymous.

        I don’t want to bore you but we use to have an unofficial ‘white Australia’ policy making it very hard for any non-European to gain entry to Australia, this was born from the gold rush in the late 1700’s and all the hard working chinese that came over and the competition and jealousy it created. However with fear of communism spreading down from asia and the fact that we did not have a large population to defend ourselves our mantra became “populate or perish” and in order to do this policies of mass immigration were brought in …1830s -50s. Not enough Europeans were coming so we started courting people to come here from other nations with jobs and contracts….kind of indentured labour i think, but then governments changed the laws to give all our immigrants the same rights as Europeans and the chance to live here permanently etc and we truly became a nation built on immigration.

        It is so multi cultural, mainly European and Asian, but now we have students, refugees, skilled workers etc from all over Africa and South America as well. There aren’t the same large scale issues between blacks and whites because we don’t have a history with each other i think.

        Our attitude on America use to be like you were our big brother to look up to, the movies and music and culture, but i think we kind of stopped that worship for a while during the Bush years…but i know my faith was restored in Americans when Obama was elected….great man. It then ocurred to me that the issues people seem to have with the US is because of the Fox News kind of Americans…arrogant, racist, biased, pompous and stupid…exactly those kinds that support the Zimmermans of this world, gun loving, holier than thou types….it’s ironic that fox news is owned by an Australian because that network would not last a second over here. But thankfully, unless you are looking closely at a case like this or watching a michael moore documentary we don’t get to see that ugly side, we mostly get to see the more liberal side of great, talented people. But this case certainly opened my eyes to that gun culture and racist element in the US that i didn’t really know was so loud. And i’m grateful for our gun laws….if this happened over here that man would be in a shit load of trouble.

        My ex was African and my children get given so much attention, strangers just love them, i often get asked if they are mine because i guess there are just not many Africans around here so it is more plausible that i adopted haha, but i don’t mind because it is not in mean spirit. My kids are fussed over by people in shops and restaurants, strangers coming over to talk to me about them so i hope they will not have to have the same fear living here that children like Trayvon have to encounter every day. Anyway i ranted on a bit but thanks for asking about Australias perception because during the last year i have often compared our two countries and so it was nice to get some of my thoughts/conclusions/incoherent babbling off my chest. Cheers mate.

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          in my above post i hope i haven’t made it sound as though we aren’t racist because Australia certainly is, but as i’ve learned through this trial after reading the hate that has been thrown at Trayvon and his family it is very different.

          • disappointed says:

            jodi I also enjoyed your comment. Thank you for sharing it.

          • jodiwankanobi says:

            wow thank you disappointed, i was worried that i was going to bore everyone so it’s really nice that you took the time to read my thoughts and opinions

        • Rachael says:

          amazing post. Thank you for sharing that.

        • texad says:

          Thanks for a most revealing mini history lesson on the land down under. American schools don’t do a good job in teaching about Australia. And thanks for being able to ‘get’ why the murder of Trayvon Martin touches so many around the world. You have a very clear understanding about the reasons the United States still has a lot of work to do in terms of being a model for the world. A country’s honor will be judged by how ‘the least of these’ are treated.

        • cielo62 says:

          jodi~ WOW! Thank you for your observations. The “Ugly American” stereotype is unfortunately based very much reality. The gun loving culture is entrenched and entwined with racism and violence. There are responsible gun owners, but they mind their own business so you don’t hear them as much as the extremists. I’m guessing this case might pop back up in the news after the verdict (guilty) is announced. Cheers!


          • jodiwankanobi says:

            cielo62 thanks for this comment, i agree with you totally. Outsiders like me know you guys have guns, but it’s not shoved in our faces until we see a documentary or a court case such as this….recently i saw a 60 minutes type program that showed the gun shops and advertising aimed towards little kids with pink guns etc and it’s shocking to see….i’m glad there are people like those at this blog because quite frankly the people at the treehouse and other such sites scare me….they seem so patriotic yet they are hurting their country by their gun loving, racist, arrogant attitudes…yet they don’t care. Cheers!!! 🙂

    • Xena says:

      @jodiwankanobi. If you want to see the entire trial, I maintain the videos on

  57. Michael Stewart says:

    Is it possible the state believes that ultimately, the defense will have no choice but to call fogen as a witness ? The prosecution plans to address the obvious timeline and evidentiary discrepancies on cross, forcing the defendant to impeach himself ?

    Anyone ?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Not placing any bets, but I surely do hope so 🙂

    • Xena says:

      State prosecutors are very keen. They have left questions opened that requires the defense to put on its case. If the defense decides otherwise, then the State connects the dots during closing argument.

      Effectively, the defense has no defense witnesses. If all they can do is recall State witnesses, the jury will wonder why there are no defense experts to testify contrary to State experts. The defense has attempted to turn State witnesses into defense witnesses, but all that does is tell the jury that State witness told the truth and they will apply that more to the benefit of the prosecution.

      The defense telegraphs its plots and plan. For instance, Vanilla Ice West let it be known that he still plans on deposing attorney Crump. Why? Because the defense still wants to take the “Zimmerman is being maliciously prosecuted” route.

      • Rachael says:


      • Tzar says:

        This is exactly what I said but I wonder, where it Jeremy?

      • Tzar says:

        ok, also where are the pictures of Trayvon’s hands?

        • Those and other photos taken at the autopsy will be introduced through the assistant ME who performed the autopsy.

          • Tzar says:

            Assuming it is just that ME and Sabryna left, did you think they would have time to do all these witnesses on Friday?
            what about Gilbreath and Ostein?

          • fauxmccoy says:


            am not fred, of course, but since court recessed yesterday, i have been stating that the state needed to put on the ME, an FDLE investigator (likely gilbreath), and sybrina. fred confirmed that was his thought as well.

            my hope is that they manage to use the entire day so that the last thing the jury hears before the weekend recess is the words of trayvon’s mother saying ‘that is my baby screaming for his life’.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          first — many of the pictures revealed to the jury were not shown on live feeds.

          second — the ME who performed the autopsy would be the correct person to introduce autopsy photos and the ME has yet to testify.

  58. nocamo33 says:

    Quite frankly, I am a bit surprised and disappointed, did I miss the Pros discussion of the timeline? Will they rest their case without doing so? I think there are so many inconsistencies there and Pros need testimony showing them.

    • bettykath says:

      Professor, I do remember you saying something about the pressure building. I feel it.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      closing arguments — that’s what it’s for.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Okay, questions for you fauxmccoy, 1) are you an attorney or law student? I haven’t tracked all your commentary, but if so, you are probably well versed in criminal procedural law and can answer my next question that stems from your response above. Does what your saying mean that if the Pros doesn’t really spell out or expound on a particular piece of evidence they will utilize the closing to drive it home/spell it out/ and tie it all together? Whoops, I think I answered my own question… Okay, one last thing, can they get in trouble if they make an assertion based off of evidence that was not brought in (for example the timeline or Jun’s point about the pulling on Trayvon’s shirt)? Meaning, can they say something like, “Trayvon tried to get away and Zimmerman grabbed his shirt, Zimmerman was on top”? Or, would the defense object (can they even in closing arguments)?
        In asking the question, I am reminded of a point brought up before that they may stick to the generally agreed upon facts and drive those points home rather than digging too deeply into disputable issues that may detract from the facts not in question.

        • nocamo33 says:

          Ahhh, had I only scrolled down to Michael and Xena’s discussion on this very topic.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          not an attorney or an official law student, just have a very good grasp on the process due to fred here, my father’s law/accounting career and an ex who was an assistant DA in oakland.

          and yes, you answered your own question. i think 2-3 more witnesses must be called. the medical examiner with accompanying autopsy; sybrina fulton and perhaps an FDLE investigator to explain some evidence which has been entered but no substantial information provided such has clubhouse surveillance tapes and phone records. jun’s mention of a ballistics expert is not quite right — we heard from the ballistics expert today regarding the gun. information about the trajectory of bullet is in the autopsy and will be entered/explained by the medical examiner.

          the timeline was fairly well established by calling witnesses in chronological order, but closing arguments will tie each piece together. closing arguments will also put forth the state’s theory as to the actions of victim and defendant and why the defendant should be found guilty. the will draw on each of the witnesses for facts to support their argument.

          basically, you got it right.

  59. The combination of the photographs that show no significant injuries to the defendant’s face and head and the absence of any of the defendant’s blood and DNA on Trayvon Martin’s fingernails and his hoodie sweatshirt, particularly the sleeves and cuffs, put the lie to the defendant’s story.

    Trayvon Martin did not hit the defendant repeatedly or slam his head against a cement sidewalk because, if he had done so, he would have been covered with the defendant’s blood and DNA.

    Therefore, the defendant was never reasonably in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Exactly and, if Fogen was so afraid of Trayvon like he said in the very beginning, then why did he get out of his vehicle to hunt this kid down? also, I read on one of the threads here that, Fogen may have struck Trayvon in his head with his flash light.

      If the above is true, this is more than likely why Trayvon had global brain swelling. Trayvon was the only in fear of great bodily harm or even death. this slimy POS killed Trayvon for the reason John Guy stated. he shot Trayvon, because he wanted to. also, there were some witnesses who saw him do it but, they would rather tell a lie instead of telling the truth.

      • Rachael says:

        I can’t imagine getting hit in the head with a flashlight hard enough to have global brain swelling – especially if the flashlight and the head remained intact. I mean there would be external damage to the head if you were hit hard enough with that to cause internal damage like that, but certainly the immediate trauma of a bullet to the heart and lungs would do it.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          like you, i think there is no chance of trayvon having been struck by the flashlight due to lack of external injury.

          please correct me if i am wrong, my info comes from my own RN mom and i know you are as well — the global brain edema is likely a result of a lack of oxygen to the brain due to blood loss, correct? in essence, it is a result of the gun shot wound and internal bleeding and part of the death process in this case.

    • Xena says:

      Professor, do you think it’s important for the prosecution to have an expert witness on blood splatter?

    • KateW says:

      Ahhh that makes sense. There would have been splatter from the impact, the blood would have also been smeared significantly on the concrete. But this goes to my point all along that his injuries were likely caused by rocks and debris in the grass upon the struggle or initial fall. But this is why I am so angry at the prosecution because they specifically said to Dr. Rao his head was hit on concrete. They were basically co-signing the defense suggestion it was concrete and only concrete.

      The defense is really frustrating me, and I can see why people are really skeptical about what is going on. They are presenting evidence but allow the jury to decipher or interpret what is going on. I suppose they will make the connections in close? I hope so.

      • Dennis says:

        I think the prosecution refuted that by having the investigator testify that they did not find any blood on the sidewalk. Judging by the pictures of Fogen’s head, there are only two streaks of blood. No reason to believe he was gushing blood. The streaks are not smeared which tells you that his head never made contact with the concrete or grass after he received the tiny boo boos.

        The defense’s case basically rests on two MORE THAN LIKELY doctored photos to help further their client’s case of self-defense. Judging by the assassination campaign against Trayvon in the media with false information, I’d already assume the defense knows those photos are bullshit.

    • KateW says:

      If I may be honest. The power or guy’s opening statement does not match the presentation.

      • ay2z says:

        It will, it will. This is just the filing in, so to speak, of the evidence that will be used and available to the jury.

        This is going to be a highly passionate and fully backed up by witnesses testimony and expert witness opinion. Can’t do that until it’s all in. (unless you are Jose Baez)

  60. Jun says:


    When is ballistics gonna come in and testify and show how the gunshot was done?

    That also proves the state’s case that GZ was aggressor

    • nocamo33 says:

      I have a feeling the Pros is avoiding anything that cannot be proven BARD. They don’t want to open the door to something that may create reasonable down. For example, if the audio experts were let in and then they were discredited, even if everything else pointed to guilty, that in and of itself could create doubt. Jurors can reason, “well since the Pros asserted x and x cannot be proven, then we must acquit”. I am not a law student, but that would be one dynamic I would love to hear from the law students/professor/lawyers about. Is there a name for that kind of dynamic and how, if at all, is it addressed? That is, if Pros brings forth evidence to prove a case, but that particular piece of evidence is weak or somehow disproven, even if everything else points to guilty, what would the instruction be for the jury?

      • Jun says:


        That does not answer my question

        the fact the trajectory is straight front to back and the bulletholes in the victim’s clothing do not line up with the GSW, prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that Fogen grabbed Trayvon by the shirt, to shoot him

        It’s the only way for the ballistics for what happen to happen

        • nocamo33 says:

          If I am not mistaken, their contention is that Trayvon was leaning over him. The prosecution is not going to want quibbling over that particular piece of evidence when they have so much else. In other words, they would not want to argue over “disputable” matters, which may detract from other issues not in dispute. The trajectory is not in dispute, Trayvon’s position is. NOW, I do believe that BDLR made clear in his questioning of Good that good was only out there for a few seconds. The other testimony about seeing Zimmerman stand up immediately after paints the picture that Trayvon may have had the upper hand briefly, but a) that doesn’t make him the aggressor and b) he didn’t always have the upper hand. I agree, the trajectory evidence is key. Similar to my question, so eloquently answered by fauxmccoy, I was worried about the timeline not having been focused on. Your point is well taken. I guess what I am trying to say is that the prosecution seems to be picking which pieces of evidence they will hone in on. Like you I was worried that they would leave key evidence out. I have questions about that, but I chalk that up to my ignorance in what it takes to try a case. That’s why I come here. To learn from all of you (and be encouraged by people that don’t think it is okay to murder an innocent black kid, lie about it, be defended by ignorant people and then get a handsome payoff to boot).

          • ay2z says:

            Really? The state’s contention is that Trayvon was leaning over him?

            That’s what the defendant claims, never heard the conclusion from the state that this is there theory.

            That is pretty much an impossibility that GZ MUST testify to because his defense team will not be allowed to bring in his self-serving statements.

            The jury has to reconcile this and if it’s without the defendant taking the stand to try to explain the straight front to back shot, the jury will have to speculate on the contortions necessary, and they are NOT allowed to speculate or make assumptions.

          • nocamo33 says:

            By “their” I meant the defense! 🙂

          • ay2z says:

            The state hasn’t given us their conclusion yet, that will come on Friday.

            But we might see something like this in their theory, to explain the direct front to back shot, IF that’s where they are going.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Gut wrenching every time. You can hear Fogen saying something to Trayvon on the tapes.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Thanks to the source of the vid. Love the pic of Trayvon at the end.

          • ay2z says:

            ‘The Smothering’, we heard what the defendant says about wrist locks, control over his wrist, grabbing the rear sight area of the gun, and the holster with leather clip that never was, and we hear about the mounted position with knees againsst the defendant’s side up to his ribs or arm pits.

            Let the jury realize the impossibility in the darkness, and this position of Trayvon on top, and the contortions that the defendant explained to try to convince SPD that the shot could be perfectly front to back, with TRayvon mounted like this, and bending over him, striking him, moving about.

            John, Bernie and Rich are no fools.

          • Jun says:

            The fact that the holes misalign for a straight to back trajectory, and the fact that witness 8 testified that Fogen had him pinned when he shot the kid, proves without a doubt, that is how Fogen shot the kid

            If Trayvon was on top, pulling on the shirt would cause Trayvon to fall forward and the trajectory would be vastly different

            Plus the dna readings just ruled out that head bash nonsense

            The only way for the holes to line up if if Fogen pulled Trayvon by the shirt, which rules out the lean over Fogen nonsense

            The main factor that the holes misalign proves that there was only one way, Fogen could have shot Trayvon, so I do not get how that would create doubt

            I dont see how Omara can reasonably argue that to a reasonable person any other way

          • nocamo33 says:

            I don’t mean that it would create doubt in and of itself. If you see the Defense’s tactic, it is to try to paint the evidence in a light that is favorable to them. It just muddies the waters. That’s my thought, but I am not a trial lawyer and not well-versed in effective strategy. It’s interesting but not exactly my cup of tea.

    • Xena says:

      @Jun. Now that the State has verified it was a contact shot, I don’t think they will introduce argument regarding how the gunshot was done. The defense already let their defense be known; i.e., they allege that the Arizona can pulled Trayvon’s hoodie down.

      The State has already verified that the gunshot was underneath the photo button — actually the button covered the gunshot. With the gunshot lining up in both shirts, there is a reasonable argument that GZ took a deliberate, studied shot intended to kill.

      • nocamo33 says:

        I like your answer better than mine!

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, today’s testimony about the ‘gragments’ of the shell cartridge that were fractured from, I think I remember, striking something. John Guy did not take this further today.

        Put that together with the final witness, to identify something for the jury, when she takes the stand, and the answer will be complete.

        This is what LLMPapa did for us earlier in the trial.

        It will all come together in a powerfully striking manner, pethaps by end of Friday, hopefully, to leave the jury for the weekend with that hitting home of the kill shot.

  61. Two sides to a story says:

    Turns out that Trent is in Sanford and has registered for the lottery for court on Friday. He’s walking around the courthouse grounds in this video.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Folks can say what they want about Trent, but I have loved his videos and the commentary from him that comes with it.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        He’s an angel with a potty mouth. His heart is in the right place.

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          haha too right, i hope he can control himself in court….”he’s a fucking liar”….i can hear his voice now lol

          • Rachael says:

            Oh God, I can too. LOL. I hope he brought duct tape. LOL.

          • Sophia33 says:

            Hahaha! I CAN SOOO SEE TRENT DOING THAT!

            Let’s pray for God to give Trent the ability of self control. LOL!

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Love Trent! I can hear him saying, “and he was fuckin shimmying and shimmying…and Trayvon was just beatin that head.”

            Lmao, classic.

        • MedicineBear says:

          An angel with a potty mouth is my favorite kind of angel!

      • Tzar says:

        don’t get me wrong I may complain about his commentary sometimes but only when they prevent me from hearing the actual proceeding
        otherwise we all have a lot of and nothing but love for Trent

        • Trained Observer says:

          I hope his number got picked in the lottery for Friday. If not, maybe he’ll score for Monday.

          • Sophia33 says:

            He didn’t get it for Friday. He is trying for Monday. This time, he is bringing cookies to the officer in charge. LOL!

      • looolooo says:

        He’s one of Trayvon’s most loyal supporters. I listen to his videos over and over, just for his commentary. Hope he can get close enough to Sybrina and Tracey to offer them comfort and support.

        I’ll be looking for him in the court room Friday.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Who is this Trent? I like him.

      • Rachael says:

        He has a lot of videos out on this matter.

      • Xena says:

        Trent Sawyer is a defender of 17 year old, unarmed Trayvon Martin. He is detailed and was the first to discover that the clubhouse videos were 18 minutes off before discovery material was released. In some of his videos, Trent demonstrates actions that GZ said he did, such as wiggling his head off concrete.

        Zidiots have tried putting Trent through the hell. They have impersonated him on Twitter, and doxed another person with the same name that resides in another state, spreading defamation that he is a convicted child molester.

        Trent tells them off, shakes the dust off his feet, and continues advocating justice for Trayvon.

        • MedicineBear says:

          I love Trent!!!

        • Sabrina B. says:

          Thanks so much. I will be checking out his videos.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            People see Trent’s videos they see the work of LLMPapa. What they don’t realize is the tremendous amount of effort and work that goes into the studies they had to perform, before they even were able to conceive of the storyline needed to create the videos. I see the effort because I take pains to see the work behind the project.

            I feel the frustration Trent Sawyer feels when he’s moved to exclaim so strongly. It’s that emotion behind all the work that makes the work so valuable. While LLMPapa simply presents the truth of the matter for one to ponder. While we are living through yet another episode of this age, just as many have done in the ages before us.

            Our technology has allowed us to conquer the physical world with less effort than those before us. Meaning that our “brave new world” is ever more a world of the mind. Those who think that America is a nation where they can claim privilege do not understand that America was not built by such concepts nor will it be sustained by them either. They are working to destroy the concept that built America and they will tear it down, if left to their own devices. We will then become a land of slaves and peons with a ruling upper class appointed by birthright.

            Should that happen these fools who seek it, do not realize that the rulers will not be them. I could go on and on and fill books, but we know much of this already. We get rights and freedoms by fighting for the rights and freedoms for others. There is no other way.

        • elle says:

          If anything bad ever happens to me, I desperately want Trent on my side.

          • Xena says:


            If anything bad ever happens to me, I desperately want Trent on my side.

            You got that right!

      • Sophia33 says:

        He is a sweetheart that is VERY passionate about seeing GZ go to jail. Tons of videos. I learned a lot from watching LLMPapa’s videos. I gotten much stress relief listening to Trent’s videos. Trent watches things related to the case and the comments on it during the video. He very often says what you are thinking if you are a supporter of Trayvon.

        • Sabrina B. says:

          He’s seems great. I loved the “if you see the Zimmermans peck at them” to the bird. Cracked me up.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks for the tour, Trent

      Where’s your satelite van and express bus??!

  62. jodiwankanobi says:

    i’m sure the defense will call Robert Zimmerman so he can tell the jury who the real racists are….that should go down well

  63. Skype pranksters interrupt Zimmerman witness testimony

    A professor’s testimony via Skype in the George Zimmerman trial Wednesday was interrupted by a series of noisy call notifications and alerts from pranksters, leading Judge Debra Nelson to order the witness and the prosecutor questioning him to “hang up the phone.”

    Seminole State College professor Scott Pleasants was giving his testimony about a class taken by Zimmerman, who has pleaded not guilty to the charge of second-degree murder of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Soon after the testimony started, however, the video call was bombarded with almost non-stop incoming call attempts. Since the live video stream was shown on a screen in the courtroom, the jarring visual and audio interruptions blocked the screen and made it difficult to hear Pleasants’ testimony.

    • Leslie says:

      SG2…It makes me wonder if he didn’t want to give testimony and maybe solicited those interruptions before hand. He did know ahead of time..

      • bettykath says:

        So did the defense and they did not what his testimony in. I was watching and I have no idea what his testimony was. Hope the jury asks for a transcript of it.

        • Leslie says:

          @ Bettykath, not sure exactly, I had to run out, but I think I read somewhere that JN told them to hang up the phone.

          • Trained Observer says:

            JN did.

          • Leslie says:

            Good for JN! I was loving that she took complete control of her courtroom today and gave Mr. Burns a verbal smackdown!

          • Woow! says:

            Who is Mr. Burns?

          • Leslie says:

            Sorry..that is what I call West…he reminds me of and acts like Mr. Burns from the simpsons.

          • bettykath says:

            yes, JN had him hang up the skype, but they then got him on another phone. This was the most disruptive testimony yet, except the West’s browbeating and denigrating of Rachel.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        no — his skype address was easy enough to detect because of the camera angle/shot. i could have rang in myself had i been so inclined. this was just a bunch of jackasses.

    • nocamo33 says:

      For some reason, I would not be surprised if some interns connected to the defense were responsible. Wouldn’t that be considered witness tampering? I think this is important enough to investigate what, if any, connection there is to anyone involved in this case.

      • nocamo33 says:

        OK. I watched he vid and realize what happened. Seriously, these people had nothing better to do than to interrupt a murder trial? How dumb are we becoming?

    • Judy75201 says:

      I think this was orchestrated by the defense. I think So&So refused to lie under oath, so his testimony was “interrupted” lol.

      However, who on earth doesn’t know that the internet is forever, and IP addresses are never actually hidden from a court order?

    • Dennis says:

      That was completely ridiculous. Since the trial is live, people saw the Skype name of the prosecutor and starting calling him. One of the people calling had a racist avatar that I won’t even begin to describe.

  64. KittySP says:

    Rachel Jeantel attorney on CNN name is Rod Vereen.

  65. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I have a headache from watching HLN and reading their comment section. All I can hear is that child begging for his life and his terrifying screams still give me the chills. For HLN to think that a child’s death is no more than some hyped up game show to gain ratings is beyond appalling and sick.

    I’m sure my headache underlying cause is the anger that is building up in me looking at Zimmerman sit there with no remorse and how he admitted on TV for everyone to hear that he’d do it again if he had the chance to. Coretta Scott once said, “If you gonna stand up for anything, stand up for righteousness.”

    Zimmerman discarded Trayvon’s life like it was a disposable diaper. Yes, he did it because he wanted to, but mostly because he has a depraved mind and so do those who uphold him.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Hello granny, I’m really pissed off because of the way Trayvon and his family has been so horribly treated by some in this country. I sure don’t mind saying, that I don’t feel too good or proud of this country. to think that some want to see this poor excuse of a human being, get away with taking this child’s life, speaks volumes about this country.

      It seems like the two people from SPD, were on the side of this murderer and, they were both evasive at times and, Serino even went as far as to say, he believed Fogen’s self defense claim. who is paying these people in order to get even those whose job it is to serve and protect, to get on the witness stand in this trial and, lie under oath.

      There is something very wrong with how this trial has been laid out. dear GOD I pray that he doesn’t get away with this murder.

  66. Judy75201 says:

    If anyone is basing their opinion about how well or not the prosecution is doing based on news stories, I’ve got to say, you just need to stop that. I don’t care which side it is on, it is promotion based on a hoped-for rating rather than a true analysis of the evidence.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Very true! The news will keep you in a constant state of upset. Often what the jury has seen never makes it into the news cast.

      Those tapes with all of those lies spoke for themselves. The biggest liar in this case is GZ. And the prosecution said that they would set out to prove he told a Web of lies. They did that. A self-defense case of this nature depends on the defendants credibility. They shot his credibility. The prosecution shot it intentionally and ironically the defense shot his credibility unintentionally.

      • nocamo33 says:

        What is sad to me is that the public may never know exactly why George gets convicted and the likes of people like Hannity (who should apologize now that he knows Zimmerman lied) will continue to paint the picture that Zimmerman was being railroaded, further dividing our nation. I wish someone from the right will step up to the plate and be responsible.

  67. Xena says:

    A person on another blog asked about Zimmerman’s reaction at seeing himself on the Sean Hannity program. Don’t blame me. She asked for it. 🙂

    • Leslie says:

      Lmao!! Pride goes before a fall…

    • Judy75201 says:

      Thank you, Xena! I had read about this response, but not seen it. My Lord what an ass this pig is (lol).

    • disappointed says:

      Fogen is one of those guys that just makes my skin crawl. He is disgusting and it is more than just killing Trayvon. He really creeps me out. Don’t get me wrong the fact he DID kill Trayvon is enough but it is not the only reason. Something is wrong with him.

      • bettykath says:

        As Serino said, “He’s either telling the truth or he’s a psychopath. (at least I think that’s the word he used.). O’Mara removed the psychopath so Serino could say fogen was telling the truth. I think Serino would tend to go the other way.

        • Leslie says:

          “Pathological Liar”

        • bettykath says:

          Just found it. He said pathological. I’ve been thinking psychopath. That’s a typical MOM tactic, take the part of the answer you like and repeat it to get the witness to agree. In the process he discards the rest of it which, in this case, was closer to the truth.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t know what his thing is.
        He’s up to no good.
        For such as HIM was the Yiddish expression “Yich” made.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Tell it! And the most IMPORTANT thing about him doing that is that he did it after the jury heard him tell Hannity that he had NO REGRETS!

      • Xena says:

        @Sophia33. Yep. No regrets. Would still get out of his truck. And, had never heard of SYG.

        At this point, I would have to believe that the jury is judging the credibility of defense attorneys too.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Plus the slimely things his attorneys have done. THe most glaring is when they tried to imply that the piece of awning that fell from Manolo’s own porch was something that Trayvon Martin was going to use as a slim jim. That was disgusting.

          • Xena says:


            THe most glaring is when they tried to imply that the piece of awning that fell from Manolo’s own porch was something that Trayvon Martin was going to use as a slim jim.

            Yeah, I heard that bigotvoyant theory. Not only does it say that Trayvon knew what GZ was saying to NEN about burglaries and looking suspicious, but also that he must have known that he and GZ would come into physical contact and that he would be killed, so ditched the slim jim so he could not use it to defend himself.

            But, for O’Mara, it displays a White Supremacist attitude; i.e., that Trayvon needed to hide a slim jim because any “crazy ass cracker” following him has authority.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            xena says

            But, for O’Mara, it displays a White Supremacist attitude; i.e., that Trayvon needed to hide a slim jim because any “crazy ass cracker” following him has authority.

            i can’t remember … did he have that slim jim with him at the 7-11? 😉

            yup, that ‘theory’ is disgusting.

    • Rachael says:


    • fauxmccoy says:

      oh xena … my eyes!! my eyes!!!

      that is truly horrifying!
      (but excellent job on your part)

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I sure hope they did see it.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That reminded me so much of his duping delight on Hannity that I figure it’s another episode of duping delight.

      • Xena says:

        @Two sides. You mean the duping smirks in the following?

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Yes. Creepy. If the jury lets him go, the state will see him again after some other misadventure.

          Good video, Xena.

          • Xena says:

            @Two sides.

            If the jury lets him go, the state will see him again after some other misadventure.

            In the morgue — from drug overdose.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Probably from ingesting a small amount of lead, the medical examiner will put the cause of death as lead poisoning. Fitting end to a wasted life of a person that experienced a somewhat privileged childhood…..

    • Girlp says:

      I hope the jury paid close attention to that stupid grin, I noticed it made me ill soooo proud of himself. He forgets it blew up in his face the donations dropped off after he blamed Trayvon’s murder on God.

    • ay2z says:

      Haven’t seen it but for the ‘live’ moment yet, but fogen deserves at least 5 swirly cones for this reaction! Says a LOT!

      Thanks, Xena

    • ay2z says:

      Excellent Xena, that’s for capturing that moment. SO telling, a genuine proud moment with that duping delight smile as we havve never seen it before. So obvious!

      Plain as day, a one man show.

  68. Leslie says:

    I hope this works..this is a link to MOM’s body language analysis. It’s pretty interesting.

  69. pat deadder says:

    As usual I’m confused .Was West’s fiasco about taking 4 days off a way to delay the defense’s case,and is it possible defense won’t put on a case and ask the judge to dismiss..Then what are there closing arguments.I expected more from the prosecution but what the hell do I know.Strength for Sabrina and Tracy.No matter the outcome their precious child is gone.

  70. manberk says:

    Im thinking the state floated the AMMO version of the story to put out the idea that GZ suggested he shot TM when he grabbed the gun. Then disproved it with forensics/dna after. GZ would have a need to clarify it if its incorrect, because right now thats got to be on the jury’s mind. Is it possible this was a way of drawing him to the stand?

    • Unabogie says:

      What is the AMMO version? This is my complaint with Bernie. He throws out little bits of information but doesn’t explain it along the way.

  71. Tee says:

    Did the medical examiner testify yet about the gunnshot wound?

  72. Tee says:

    I am trying to catch up here from being out all day. So tell me anyone if Trayvon’s DNA was found on GZ shirt how in the hell did it get there if his jacket was zipped up. The jacket had to be zipped up for it to rise the way GZ said it didl

  73. boyd says:

    where is mary cutcher, selene’s sister and jenna’s husband., the little boy walking the dog.

    • boyd says:

      did west and omara stall to deny the prosecution enough time to bring out more witnesses/

      • Trained Observer says:

        I think that entire business about the State wrapping up today was a bit of gamesmanship (sanctioned in part by JN) to rattle Defense. Should West string out crosses as per usual, or should he hurry it up. Such a dilemma.

        There was no way the State was going to rest today, and despite BDLR’s assurance that it will be resting Friday, you can just color me skeptical.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, they didn’t want the prosecution to end the day with Sybrina.

    • bettykath says:

      Mary Cutcher spent too much time giving interviews. Selene’s sister really didn’t see anything. Jeremy, Jenna’s husband, does whatever Jenna tells him to do [snark]. Can you imagine having a now 10 year old enduring one of West’s nasty crosses?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Are any of them on the Defense wit list? Can they be called, if necessary, on rebuttal? (While I’m a big advocate of KISS, I’ll admit to being disappointed in how few of the lies and discrepancies have been probed, plumbed, and hoisted to wave like red flags. )

        P.S. Like Rachel (Dee-Dee), I’ll be the 10-year-old could get the best of West.

      • boyd says:

        I’m getting worried Kath. I don’t think we’ve dropped enough bombs on Fogen.

        They*the defense) want Fogen to be treated like an object. who is he? I don’t feel they’ve made it clear he is a creep.

        MOM trying to scare the prosecution, with trayvon;s cell phone stuff.

      • gbrbsb says:

        All very good points… and if the defence calls them the State would probably be able to get most of what they want in under cross.

    • V says:

      Where are the neighbors that were harassed, or the disgruntled gentlemen at he HOA meeting?

      • Malisha says:

        I think they’re rebuttals but State doesn’t want to put them on because if they get on, the SPD will be on the hot spot again. HOA took the heat for what went wrong by paying over a million or more dollars; SPD is supposed to skate away from this without even two scratches and a bump on its nose.

        • Jun says:

          I dont get it though


          The jury and the residents deserve to know that their police force in Sanford sucks, and get proper officers there

          From my observation it seems only Singleton, the CSI tech, the ballistics tech, the pathologist, Raymundo, the fat hispanic cop dude, were the only ones doing a proper job

          Bill Lee was fired, and Norm was asked to step down, and Serino’s demotion is not a coincidence either I believe

          • Malisha says:

            WHY state agencies and police departments and other authorities who are corrupt and who are nevertheless protected right, left and center (from above, below and everywhere) is a great question. For 36 years I have been trying to understand it. I keep wondering, “Don’t the people deserve a government that really will keep itself respectable? Don’t the people deserve to know what is really happening? Don’t the people deserve… blah blah blah?”

            What we deserve doesn’t matter.

            This is what we got: If you discover corruption on the part of someone powerful, your chances of getting them busted are probably about one (1) percent. Knock yourself OUT. Spend all your time, money and energy on it (as I have done). Write persuasive and convincing briefs supported by documentary evidence that is not controvertible or deniable. Will not matter. Will not make a bit of difference except to get you marginalized, battered, impoverished, delegitimized, scorned, abused and ultimately robbed of your life interest.

            WHY? Because. Because “They’re the deciders.”

          • boyd says:

            if the other witnesses do not come to testify because of some political game. it’s another crime against the Martin family.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            “Write persuasive and convincing briefs supported by documentary evidence that is not controvertible or deniable. Will not matter. Will not make a bit of difference except to get you marginalized, battered, impoverished, delegitimized, scorned, abused and ultimately robbed of your life interest.”

            Well said, Malisha.

          • Malamiyya says:

            Practically word-for-word, this is what happened to me after I exposed the false accounting practices of a publisher and forced them to pay authors at least some of what they owed them.

        • Ms.X says:

          I vehemently disagree, my friend. Tray’s parents are always flanked by lawyers who are waiting patiently for this case to end so they can start the civil case against SPD, the City of Sanford or both. You can take a civil case to the bank. Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when. They are going to use all the evidence from this trial to nail them in the civil case. I can’t wait.

          • Malisha says:

            They will use a LOT MORE THAN THE EVIDENCE USED IN THIS TRIAL to nail SPD and other civil defendants once the criminal trial is over. They want to prove punitive damages. It’s going to be much more of a bloodbath than this trial is — this one is very strictly controlled by people who are essentially ON THE SPD’s side.

          • cielo62 says:

            BUT the civil damages trial will finger just a few people, and a few token heads will roll (hopefully Smith and Wagner), they pay money to sweep it under the rug, and life goes on essentially like before.


      • Malisha says:

        Harassed neighbors and HOA guy relate to “prior bad acts” that cannot come in unless a door opens for them.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i suspect the state thought that

      a. they would not make great witnesses AND
      b. their testimony would not cover any new ground.

      in other words, they put on the best they had to support their story. john good was put on as a states witness just to get him out of the way, should the defense call him, the prosecution will impeach the hell out of him (with plenty of ammo) and his whole story will be suspect.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I agree with your a and b but not so sure about John. IMO he was a useful witness. He was the only one who saw the actual scuffle for any time and up close, he confirmed no noises of a fight and imo his testimony gave rise to a narrative that I believe works with all the evidence, witnesses and forensics.

        It may be as you say that the State is simply going on the basis that what GZ says is not possible and therefore he is a liar and therefore self defence cannot be believed, and depending on what the ME testifies it may well be enough, albeit my bet is the defence’s medical expert will testify the contrary and open up a reasonable doubt. But it could be they will try to give a theory, or at least infer possibilities from the videos, forensics, etc. for the jury to chew on. Whatever, we will have to wait a little to see !

  74. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Here is how gz’s DNA is recognized:

    1 in 11 quad. Caucasians
    1 in 1.5 quad African Americans
    1 in 57 quad. Southeastern Hispanics

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      This was listed on the far right column of the forensic chart.

    • boyd says:


    • Nef05 says:

      YAHTC, the AA stat is “quin”, not “quad”, which is interesting because it puts him exponentially further away from having any type of “afro” blood in any recent generations, Peruvian or otherwise. Another lie, busted. 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for that correction, Nef05. You are correct.

        I just came back here with the percentages (although I did use quad for AA)

        Here are the percentage results:

        16% Caucasians
        2% African Americans
        81% Southeastern Hispanics

        • ada4750 says:

          Are you sure? Would that means that R. Zimmerman is not his biological father?

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Roberto Zimmerman (GZ’s father) was born of a Cuban mother, US father of Germanic decent.

            Gladys Zimmerman (GZ’s mother) is Peruvian.

            If an adoption was involved, then you are looking at a lot more “Peruvian” genes involved (Hispanic, Quechuan Indian, African).

            So — for GZ, however he originated, “there’s a whole lotta Hispanic going on.”

          • ada4750 says:

            Thank you Piranha.

          • looneydoone says:

            Piranha Mom,
            Catalonian Spaniards

      • boyd says:

        lol all lies about everything lol

        • AC says:

          How is that a lie? We see that his dad is clearly white, yet he is only 16% Caucasian, according to the above percentage. And his mother said that her father was Afro-Peruvian, not African-American, and showed the pictures to prove it. I really doubt he is lying about his heritage.

          As a mixed race person myself, my DNA results could be all over the place. It doesn’t mean I’m lying about my race.

  75. disappointed says:

    IMO opinion Fogen and Trayvon could have both been on their knees when the shot was fired. Trayvon being taller would still allow blood to land on the back of the jacket. I am guessing on this so if any of you are avid shooters feel free to correct me. Now I am going back to read.

    • boyd says:

      I think Trayvon got up when Good said he was calling the cops

      • disappointed says:

        I tend to agree. I think he tried to run and fogen had death grip on sweatshirt. IMO Trayvon planted his feet pulling away and that is why his feet looked wonky (for lack of better word) in the “death” photo. Again I do not know these are my opinions but I do not think Trayvon stayed on top and took that bullet without trying to get away. That is all the imagination of a want to be cop.

        I also would like to point out it took Jose Baez a long time to pass the bar because of his bad credit. Even if fogen graduated he still had bad credit, BAR DENIED just like the Police Dept denied him.

        • MDH says:

          If the left hand is being pulled via GZ’s death grip, then his left shoulder will rotate towards T, thus allowing for back splatter of T’s DNA due to bullet impact an avenue to end up on both the front and back of the left shoulder. The act of the right hand firing over the left from a GZ in a now standing position easily put a bullet on target normal to the plane of T’s body. Try a one hand tug of war with another person wherein you grab the hem of their hoodie and they try to back away. Two things will become apparent: The should of the grabbing arm will tend to rotate and the feet will tend to rise up to the toes due to the lever arm via the shoulder being above center of gravity. GZ’s boot toes were wet and had grass on them. How in the hell did they get wet and grassy in a defense scenario wherein GZ is on his back. In all probability, he had his knees flexed and soles planted flat when he was observed on his back with head proximate the sidewalk. Note you death grip scenario also explains lots of GZ blood on his jacket and none of it on T. The stain on the hem of T could be due to the death grip.

          Another point. T has his heart basically destroyed by the shot, unless I did not read the autopsy correct. No heart function equals no blood pressure. IOW, he passed out in the blink of an eye. That would explain the lack of massive bleeding out of the bullet wound. It would also make a farce out of GZ stating T said “you got me” and then getting up to step about three paces back to die in the right spot.

          I actually had to misfortune of having a man die in front of my of a massive coronary while talking to me. This is what happened:

          He gasped, went limp, his arms folded over in front of him, and he pitched face forward with his feet splayed out at an odd angle. On his way down, his head clipped a ledge. Hardly a drop of blood came out of the massive gash in his forehead.

          So I agree with your theory.

          GZ is a liar and his supporters ought to be ashamed of themselves.

      • Tzar says:

        disappointed says:
        July 3, 2013 at 7:26 pm

        IMO opinion Fogen and Trayvon could have both been on their knees when the shot was fired. Trayvon being taller would still allow blood to land on the back of the jacket. I am guessing on this so if any of you are avid shooters feel free to correct me. Now I am going back to read.

        boyd says:
        July 3, 2013 at 7:41 pm

        I think Trayvon got up when Good said he was calling the cops

        the problem with what you are both proffering is that it assumes a degree of control over the circumstances by the person screaming, Mr. Trayvon Benjamin Martin. And I can tell you with all the certainty that I will ever have that the person screaming was completely not in control of that situation. Listen to the screams again. There is about 30 seconds that passes between DeeDee hanging up and W11 calling, in those 30 seconds George Zimmerman had completely dominated Trayvon in mind and body. How do I know this? It’s all in the screams. The screamer is out of options, he is out of hope, he is out of fight.

        • disappointed says:

          Tzar I do not think Trayvon was in control in the least! I think he was being held and trying to get the hell out of dodge but couldn’t. I think in my mind, Trayvon is trying to fight for his life. We know he lost the fight, but I do not believe that he did not try to pull away. Again in no way do I believe Trayvon was in control of anything. His screams say it all, he wants help, he begged for it he could no longer keep this man off of him. As long as I live I will not forget his scream and I pray no other child goes through this.
          I also think the dna on the back of the jacket has to be considered. No way is fogen on his back. DNA may go over his head but it is not rounding the corner to land in between the 2 colors of the jacket. That is how I came to my guess as to his final seconds.

          • Tzar says:

            I hear you

          • Tzar says:

            I missed the part about Trayvon’s DNA on the back of GZ?

          • Tzar says:

            there is one point where Trayvon says “help me” instead of just an extended “hellllllp”, I believe that is the point where he became immobilized and when he saw Jon Goode (even made eye contact)

          • vanlch says:

            I agree! George was told where Trayvon stopped to catch hos breathe! You can here knocking sounds on the NEN. that is why George could not give an address. i hope the prosecution analyzes that call again. The reenactment was staged. He Knew they were coming and.had it planned out. Goode one day will reapthat for the wrong he’s done. Sad!

    • Judy75201 says:

      I can buy into that. What I can’t buy into is that they were horizontal when the shot was fired.

    • kllypyn says:

      2 inches is not that much of a difference in height.

      • disappointed says:

        kllpyn please explain the dna in the middle of zimmerman’s back if he is flat on it? I am not saying height makes that much of a difference, but it imo the knees or both standing is the only way for Trayvon’s blood to be in 2 locations on the back side of the jacket.

        • kllypyn says:

          i believe they were face to face with him holding onto Trayvon’s shirts preventing his escape when the gun was fired. Remember those screams.

  76. bks says:

    Will Zimmerman have to testify?

    • No, he has a right to remain silent and not testify, but as a practical matter, he has some serious splainin’ to do because the DNA and other evidence proves he lied to the police.

  77. colin black says:

    EdgySF says:

    July 3, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    I saw that, too, ladystclaire. It sobered me up.

    What I really hope to avoid is …I can’t even type it. I don’t want the verdict to be favorable to the killer, lets put it that way.

    I can feel myself becoming overly invested in the verdict…I suffered a lot when Casey Anthony was freed because nobody would ever be held accountable for Kasey being killed and then discarded like trash.


    Mon Ammee excusie moi Francie si vou plai?


    Non kcswamphagtrunkmommurderousfillyofilliside.

    Nou CAYLEE was discarded like trash

    kc is trash.

  78. KateW says:

    Did the judge rule on being able to bring in evidence based on OMara opening the door with the “hothead” comment, regarding character and past history of violence?

  79. silk says:

    Hay every 1. What ever happend to the time line of the event ? And also his texts messages. Zimmerman stated that trayvon circle his vehicle and skip behind houses , came back , ran again. What’s up with that.

    • willisnewton says:

      Yes, silk, everyone wants to know that as well. It could be that the prosecution is saving that for rebuttal somehow, or else establishing all the evidence has been entered and waiting until closing argument to connect all the dots.

      Or BDLR is incompetent, and forgot all about this stuff. Which I doubt.

      Many things are possible however. What GZ claims happened – ESPECIALLY the “doubled back/circled the vehicle” tall tale – is not possible.

  80. fauxmccoy says:

    i kept hearing on WFTV that they had it on good sources that today was to be the final day and that there were 8 witnesses. 7 witnesses testified today, most everyone considers that sybrina fulton will be the final witness.

    there are things mentioned in opening statements which still need evidence/testimony as well as evidence entered by records custodians which have had no real testimony whatsoever.

    — in OS, guy mentioned the angle (specifically, lack thereof) which must be brought out. i would assume this will be done by the ME who performed the autopsy as well as entering the autopsy and additional testimony. i cannot see how this could be eliminated as testimony.

    — phone records were authenticated and entered, but no testimony or interpretation provided

    — same as above regarding clubhouse surveillance video. certainly, no one expects jurors to watch that entire thing and interpret it on their own?

    i would think at the very least on friday that three more witnesses must be called — an FDLE investigator (or one from corey’s office) to go over phone records and clubhouse videos, the ME, and sybrina fulton.

    my hope is that they can manage to fill up the entire day with stuff so that sybrina’s voice is the last thing juror’s hear before the weekend recess.

    many of the things i see fellow posters bring up as being ‘overlooked’ are arguments to be made during closing for example the defendant’s blood flow from his scalp lacerations and there were many others. this is easily accomplished by mentioning ME Rao’s testimony as ‘proof’ of gravity’s effect on blood flow and then holding the pics of the bloody head and rotating them until the flow is demonstrably flowing down. the other things i mentioned above though, must be addressed.

    fred — i’d be curious as to your expert opinion.

    • willisnewton says:

      very well put. If anyone with criminal trial experience knows, I’d like to also hear a briefing on how the prosecution must work to rebut during the defense’s turn to present evidence. Would that be a better time to highlight, say, material from an autopsy, or phone records, etc?

      I don’t thing WFTV has a good track record with being right about much of anything on this case, and could easily see how the state planned to present 8 today and many more in the future.

      It seems like bloggers are “on top of it” but we aren’t there, and the media is there but they are not on top of all the facts of the case.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      K. Sounds about right.
      And, thanks for asking Fred to help us understand the specific significance of all of that DNA data.
      I’ll keep checking back to see that.
      Have a very pleasant evening and a joyous 4th.

    • Xena says:

      The guy from the gym also has to testify.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i’m wondering if they are saving that. at the time he was added to the witness list, the state did not know for sure that the PA would be able to testify to 9 hrs of MMA training per week. if the dude likes GZ then he may not be a great witness for them and they’ve already gotten much of the needed info into testimony.

        just my thoughts

  81. Woow! says:

    I did not get see hear W cross…what happened and where is link so that I can watch JN smackdown you guys are oooohing about?

  82. Miss Lou says:

    I just want to thank those of you that run this site and the people who come here to post. I used to read another site, but the racist crap that was allowed to post became just too much for me. Again, thanks.

  83. Miss Lou says:

    Does anyone know if the prosecution will bring in the contents of that person’s cell phone records? I’m curious as to know what was so damaging to him. Wouldn’t the GPS records tell exactly where he was at? Meaning, he claimed to be on his way to Target at the time he first noticed Trayvon, wouldn’t his GPS tell different? What about his texts, emails, etc from the time after the murder up to the time of his arrest?

  84. riisey007 says:

    I truly wish HLN would stop having Frank Taafe on their show. Jane Valez has this man on basically every night and he is very disruptive. He has started using big words and screaming over everybody like he is a legal analyst or attorney. He asked the female attorney on there if she was an attorney? just heckling. I really don’t get that. I won’t watch Jane Valez again I just watch until after dark comes on because the fake jurors are great and focus is good. Frank Taafe is a walking time bomb and a user.

  85. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Me too. Where is Diary? And what does Diary have to say about the jury’s reaction.

  86. tharealkeisha says:

    I love this so much I have to repost…3/2012

    Please read:
    A 15 year old young man wrote this…. it is very powerful please read:

    Just got my Arizona Tea and Skittles, leaving the store. I hear the clouds clapping when I leave the door…

    On my way back to my dad’s just minding my own business, I think someone’s following me…damn. Who is this?

    My heart starts to race as the clouds begin to rumble, I speed up my pace, he speeds up his stroll. Heart beating in my ears …out of control.

    I feel kind of scared but I keep it inside, you know every man has a thing with his pride. I take out my phone and call up my girl. I say someone’s following me, she says what the world?

    That’s when the world turns upside down. He grabs me and we fall to the ground. All pride to the side. I scream for help. Do what I can to defend myself.

    With the devil in his eye and a gun in his hand, all I have to defend myself are Skittles and a can, I fight to survive, I really do, but he cocked back the hammer and I know I’m through.

    One shot rang out. Maybe even two. I scream one more time, that’s all I can do. Pain takes over my body I never knew could exists. I grit my teeth and clinch my fists.

    A few seconds later I see the light. Jesus said to me, “Son, let go, don’t fight.”

    As soon as I do, all the pain ceases to exists. I unclench my jaws and release my fists.

    With all the pain gone and no more cries, Jesus looked at me and knew, I wondered why.

    He said to me, “Silence my son, the fight your ancestors fought is yet to be done. You’re a symbol, so your death was not in vain, and even though times have changed they still remain the same.”

    My poem is done. Ya’ll have heard me talk. Thank you for listening to Trayvon Martin Walk. (Post borrowed from Beau Tailor) #IAmTrayvonMartin

    • ladystclaire says:

      Thanks for sharing that and, I must say it is beautiful just like Trayvon was. when I wrote a comment about how Trayvon was a beautiful person inside as well as outside because, he befriended Rachel and, unlike other kids he did not laugh at her.

      You all can find information about this on Tom Joyner’s facebook page, where Rachel’s attorney talks about this. I just knew that by looking in his eyes, that Trayvon was a person with a heart and, that he accepted Rachel when a lot of other kid laughed at her. she is not anything to be laughed at and, for those who feel other wise, they are wrong for doing so and, what goes around comes around.

    • RobertSF says:

      Wow, I’m so posting that elsewhere. I wish we knew the name of the author to give him credit. I will certainly clarify I didn’t write it.

    • RobertSF says:

      Oh, wait… is the author Beau Tailor or did he also just pass it along?

    • wow!!!!! very touching…..nicely done……

  87. I wonder if this works but this is interesting.

  88. tashatexas77048 says:

    The jurors cannot say the state have not clearly layed out their case. No mangled Fogen getting repeatedly bashed means no Fogen screaming. No Fogen DNA on Tray’s sleeves means no beating and no Fogen screaming. No Fogen beating means no attempted murder. No attempted murder means no “shut up and you’re gonna die tonight Mf.” No “you’re gonna die tonight” means Trayvon was the one screaming. Trayvon screaming equals second degree murder according to the law.

    • Unabogie says:

      I think since we’re all so biased here and have been poring over the evidence for so long, we’re not capable of seeing this through the eyes of someone who’s just hearing it for the first time. I was hoping for more of a story being told as we went along. There was evidence that literally got entered with no commentary, like the clubhouse video. BDLR better have one hell of a closing argument up his sleeve. I want flowcharts, video, audio, and lots and lots of explanation. I hope he knows what he’s doing here, because a lackluster closing after this case will be heartbreaking.

      • riisey007 says:

        Yes! because the Dna still needs the help.

      • crazy1946 says:

        We might consider that “because” we have been pouring over this evidence for such a long time we have developed the idea that only we know how to “win” this trial? Perhaps we don’t know as much as we think we know. Does any one of us have experience as a prosecutor that exceeds that of the States team? How many of us have prosecuted as many cases as even the least experienced member of that team? I can only wonder why, because of the vast experience and knowledge that some on here claim to have, they are not on the payroll of the state and leading the prosecution toward the victory you seem to feel you hold in your hand. Perhaps our time would be better filled with suggestions rather than demands. Some times it seems like we are at a little league soft ball game where everyone knows how to win the game except the coach, but if he/she wins no one acknowledges that it was thru their guidance the “team” went on to victory! Now I will scurry quickly back to my place under the rock and hide!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Before the trial began we were in the research phase, there we could work with whatever evidence they released, whatever else we could find, and become familiar with the case and the timelines.

          When the trial began, however, what we know becomes counterfeit, because, as we well know, we don’t have all the evidence and even little pieces can change the whole story.

          Then we add that the prosecution isn’t going to put on all the evidence they have. They’re going to try and cut the shortest, straightest route to a conviction that they can. Thus they’re going to jettison or at least sequester a whole lot of what they’ve learned and know, to only be used as rebuttal if needed.

          Finally there’s strategy, we can’t know the prosecutions trial strategy, so all we should be doing, since the start of trial is, setting aside all that we know and try to hear what the jury is hearing and judge how the case is going from that. A difficult job to be sure, most especially if you’re rooting for one side or the other.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      From your mind to the juror’s hearts. TY.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        The DNA evidence and the pathologist saying his iinjuries were INSIGNIFICANT should resignate with the jurors. If he could have gotten all of his injuries in one punch why would he be screaming bloody murder for 30 seconds? He said he screamed for help because TM was trying to kill him, suffocate him even, yet no physical and DNA agree with this. If the jurors can reason out that the evidence shows he WOULD NOT have sceamed in terror like that then there can be no doubt that they are hearing Trayvon scream because he is the only one that had a REASON to be in absolute terror. The fact that the screams stop as soon as the gun sounds is what should convict Zimmerman who had no way of knowing it was caught on tape. Without the benefit of knowing it was caught on tape, he chose the “I didn’t know I had killed him” route. By going with that lie, and being unaware that the screams and shot were caught on tape, HE 100% EXCLUDED HIMSELF AS THE SOURCE OF THE SCREAMS. If he had screamed and been unaware that he had wounded Martin fatally, then the screams continue. They did not. The screamer was silenced instantly.

        I made a YouTube video called “Three Things That Will Sink Zimmerman’s Ship”

        The recorded screams was one of the things I mentioned. I hope I am right.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          The DNA evidence and the pathologist saying his iinjuries were INSIGNIFICANT should resignate with the jurors. If he could have gotten all of his injuries in one punch why would he be screaming bloody murder for 30 seconds? He said he screamed for help because TM was trying to kill him, suffocate him even, yet no physical and DNA agree with this. If the jurors can reason out that the evidence shows he WOULD NOT have sceamed in terror like that then there can be no doubt that they are hearing Trayvon scream because he is the only one that had a REASON to be in absolute terror. The fact that the screams stop as soon as the gun sounds is what should convict Zimmerman who had no way of knowing it was caught on tape. Without the benefit of knowing it was caught on tape, he chose the “I didn’t know I had killed him” route. By going with that lie, and being unaware that the screams and shot were caught on tape, HE 100% EXCLUDED HIMSELF AS THE SOURCE OF THE SCREAMS. If he had screamed and been unaware that he had wounded Martin fatally, then the screams continue. They did not. The screamer was silenced instantly.

          I made a YouTube video called “Three Things That Will Sink Zimmerman’s Ship”

          The recorded screams was one of the things I mentioned. I hope I am right

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Good stuff.

          • Sabrina B. says:

            Nice voice Tasha and great points.

          • IMBack says:

            Tasha in HTown im in Dallas but I have to disagree with you a tad. GZ knew the day before that he was going to do a walk through so he wasn’t really caught off guard with that but he did have to adjust how they ended up so far from the T.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Imback when I say caught off guard I mean I don’t think he thought they would go thru the trouble of getting the NEN call and asking him to answer questions based on what they heard. He assumed, as do many of his defenders , that the fact that he called the NEN before he killed Martin somehow meant the killing was justified. Afterall, who calls the police before they kill someone? When they presented him with that call and asked him to answer to it his lies became more outrageous.

          • cielo62 says:

            tasha~ do you remember Raul Rodriguez right here in Houston? He was on the phone WITH 911 AND was videotaping the murder that he committed against his neighbor. Some sociopaths do record what they do. He used every buzzword for SYG, and yet they used ALL of his words plus video to convict him 40 years to life.


  89. PYorck says:

    If this was really it, except for Sybrina, then I am a little worried. I think the state covered all the necessary points, but I am not sure it is clear enough.

    The problem is that I approached this not believing GZ’s story and for me that is still the core of the case. I don’t know exactly what happened, but I am absolutely certain that the killer lied about it. Now I fear that someone who went into this inclined to believe GZ may find enough small gaps and uncertainties to shoehorn a favorable theory into the evidence.

    I think if GZ had taken the stand that would have been his downfall, but now with essentially all his statements in evidence I don’t think he will (although I think it went the other way round, the state brought them in in case he would not take the stand anyway).

    Now I hope that the closing argument ties it all up really well.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I trust the prosecution to tie it up really well in closing arguments.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Pyrock @ YAHTC. pyrock seems to be concerned that fogen will not take the stand because BDLR covered all the necessary points, and this might just be true, but I think by BDLR covering all the necessary points which imo is very clear. It definitely shows all of fogen’s inconsistencies. I think it was a magnificent move on the prosecutors behalf.

        Now think about it, these inconsistencies has got to be explained to the jury in order for them to make a fair verdict. The only way for this to happen is by fogen himself. No one can speak for him.

        I realize the last thing the defense wants is to put fogen on the stand, but I think BDLR just forced their hand.
        The defense may in fact decide not to put fogen on the stand, but imo they would be risking an awful lot for him not to try to explain all of these discrepancies.

        I think BDLR has put the defense in a position that they are damned if they do and damned if the don’t.

        • Mary Davis says:

          @ Pyrock @ YAHTC. In my above post I was being kind when I said all of fogen’s inconsistencies and discrepancies. What I really meant was all his lies.

        • cielo62 says:

          Mary Davis~ EXACTLY! Now it boils down to whether gz will try to schmooze these ladies to let him go. He’s that arrogant. I believe he WILL take the stand, bolstered by his “superlative” performance on Hannity.


  90. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Leaving my non degraded DNA here.

  91. Nef05 says:

    Oh hell. Pest put me to sleep with his monotonous, repetitive ridiculousness. It appears I didn’t miss anything that didn’t get said on Direct. It appears the prosecution will rest on Friday, after 2 more witnesses? So, if Sybrina is one, and ideas who the other is? The ME or FDLE? Hey, what happened to the texts/emails?

  92. crazy1946 says:

    I almost (key word, almost) feel sorry for M0M/Ice Cream Man, they will now have to rush together some sort of almost, sorta, kinda, maybe, just about defense for the poor little Fogdoit! We all know they have not had nearly enough time to do that up until this instant and the mean Judge Nelson is forcing them to finally wake up and smell the sewage they have been dragging the filth they have based their diatribe on thus far! A quick question for any engineer that we might have on this site, how big a pipe and how powerful a pump is necessary in order to pump that much liquid BS up into a tree based septic tank?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Maybe Westlicker should have been deposing Crump (as if that would make a difference) instead of going out with the spawn for cones.

    • Danita says:

      Lets not sleep on mom, he actually is a very good strategist remember the letter of the law,reasonable doubt so I say that to say if BDLR is almost done im a bit concerned I would like to of heard from a few more witnesses and a few more experts.

  93. MDH says:

    Hello, I am a newbie who has been lurking.

    Why does GZ have to be on top of T?

    There are no eyewitnesses to the shot. All we have is testimony leading up to the shot.

    When this case became public, the first thing I did was listen to the 9-11 call, read the autopsy, and peruse the DNA, and look at the joke for proof of massive trauma picture { it actually proved to me at that time that GZ was a liar } to make a quick conclusions:

    GZ was a paranoid delusional idiot who clearly followed T with ill intent. That is a fact unless one believes they have nothing to fear from a person who calls them “suspect”, “F’in punk” or “asshole”

    Upon closing the distance with T some sort of scuffle broke out.

    In a fit of rage, petulance or stupidity GZ pulled out his gun and shot Z.

    If anything, the trial has proved more.

    It has proved that GZ is way, way beyond reasonable doubt a self serving pandering liar. So why are his defenders trying to say that the state must negate any one of his {and those who represent him} multiple choice fairy tales about what happened. A proven liar with a self interest has testimony with zero credibility.

    Credibility for being in danger to the point that one must use a gun to kill another in that they reasonably have fear for their life must be based on something tangible. This whole “what isn’t but what could be game by the defense” is speculation.

    So Jon’s testimony does not prove shit for the standard is was GZ in reasonable fear for his life with no recourse but to use a gun “at the time it was fired.” AT THE TIME IT WAS FIRED.

    Where is the solid evidence?

    Forensics, of course.

    When I read the autopsy, what struck me was that the bullet entered normal to the plane of T’s body. IOW, not from the left, not from the right, not from up or not from down. In ballistics, the first assumption is the shooter was standing facing the victim who was standing.

    After perusing this blog, I see that Lmppa did a very good job on the geometry. In fact, his videos drew me to this site of sanity in a sea of American Idiocy.

    What was also revealed to me here was the hole in the shirt vs wound location discrepancy that can easily be resolved by the shooter pulling on the hem of T’s hoodie with his left hand. If T was backing away from GZ, there would be reactive force that would rotate GZ’s left shoulder towards. To shoot T right down the middle, GZ would have to have his right hand over the left. Although most of the T’s reactive blood backscatter to the shot would be caught in the hoodie-shirt combination. Some would get out of the hole to deposit on the right sleeve and left shoulder of GZ. The rotation of GZ’s shoulder due to the pulling force would also allow some of T’s DNA to end up on the back of GZ’s shoulder.

    BTW, this scenario would also explain why the toes of GZ’s boots are wet. When a person facing you is trying to pull way from your hold you tend to dig in with your toes because the reactive force rotates your heels up with respect to your bodies mass center. Simple application of Newtonian Physics.

    In summary:

    Nobody saw the last seconds of the struggle.

    The forensics point to T getting up and trying to back away from where Jon appeared to see him on top of GZ.

    As T backed away, GZ grabbed his shirt as he also regained a standing position facing T and being able draw his gun.

    Note my scenario also accounts for lots GZ’s blood being all over his jacket but not on T.

    Anyhow, this is my first post. So I hope it is approved by moderation and I can join all you fine people.

  94. groans says:

    Regarding: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” which was mentioned on this afternoon’s thread. That works both ways, and I just heard that argued about the absence of CAC’s DNA under Trayvon’s fingernails.

    I know what WE all think about it, and Professor writes about it in this article. But:

    > Has there been any authoritative witness yet who testified that, in an encounter as described by CAC, one would expect to find a whole lot of CAC’s DNA under Trayvon’s fingernails?

    > Would that be part of a medical examiner’s expertise?

    > Would that be something that can simply be argued in closing argument, and jurors relied on to use their common sense?

    • BillT says:

      common sense = the bald head to be grasped and slammed onto concrete requires being gripped very tightly the only place to grab is the ears or sides of the head……NO way on earth to do that repeatedly and NOT have to dig your nails into the skin…..and it is very difficult to do if the person resists any at all…..NO 158 pound person could do that to me i assure you and that is starting on the bottom and letting him get his grip, he couldnt even lift my head up NOR slam it back down…the shifting of his weight would give me MANY opportunities to throw him off me with ease.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        The dufus was trying to get us to think of something more along the lines of the Harlem Globetrotters– trick dribbling.

  95. Here is the story board showing where Trayvon was according to George that first night, then how it changed the next day.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Thanks. BTW, are they allowed to use exhibits during the closings?

    • Nef05 says:

      Thank you. That is very helpful.

    • willisnewton says:

      nice map. Also take note of the position GZ crossed out right before telling the “doubled back/circled my vehicle tale which is impossible to reconcile w the NEN call.

      And note that GZ drew a line for himself all the way into the middle of RVC, whereas when taken to the scene he stopped before reaching the street.

      This map is a very important piece of evidence.

      • itsallboutmeash says:

        It really is an important piece of evidence and O’Mara never had a problem when Bernie had Doris explain what that X was. I think the reason George lied about where he last saw Trayvon standing behind that house while he was at the clubhouse is because he had to get Trayvon headed down Twin Trees past the clubhouse and mailhouse. I believe Trayvon jogged from the corner of Twin Trees and Retreat view to the mailhouse and hid. George ended up seeing him leave the mailhouse while he was on the dog walk and ambushed him. I really think that will be the States theory.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      great map..well done…but i don’t think it matters that george couldn’t tell on that picture which house was taffes because we all know he is as dumb as a bucket of bricks…he’d get lost going home

  96. Here are a couple of big things Bernie sneaked in with Doris Singleton’s testimony. When George first saw Trayvon, Trayvon was nowhere near Taaffe’s house. He put the X on the google map where Trayvon was. It was not till the next day George changed his story and said Trayvon was in Taaffe’s yard. He also got her to point out the place George said he last saw Trayvon while sitting at the clubhouse. This will all be in his theory of what happened I bet.

    • looolooo says:

      I was hoping that llmpapa’s theory that Trayvon was first targeted walking through Gracie Z’s neighboring apt complex would pan out.

      I am also very surprised and disappointed that there has been no reenactment of how Trayvon supposedly straddled fogen and, well, …….. you know the rest.

      I sure hope….. no I sure PRAY that Bernie and co. have stashed away some major WMD to unleash on the crypt keeper, skellator, and Ramrod Jenkins’ soon to be life partner/cellmate/wide receiver. ;-p

  97. Ty Flair says:

    So I guess in closing arguement the State will put this whole puzzle together for the jurors. Who go first in closing the State or Defense.

    • crazy1946 says:

      The defense will give their long drawn out closing argument first, and if the jury is still awake the state will then give their closing statement followed by the jury instructions from Judge Nelson

  98. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I just found a routine that will help gz lose weight and get into shape:

  99. Malamiyya says:

    So why hasn’t the prosecution shown that the holes in the sweatshirts don’t line up with the hole in Trayvon’s chest? Are they saving that for Friday, or for rebuttal?

    • Aunt Bea says:

      What is up with that? Is it that the prosecution thinks this female jury doesn’t understand how a bullet works?
      No blood trails….girls don’t understand physics and such things.

      SMH all over the place…..

      • William Walton says:

        Aunt Bea, Do Not Tell My Daughter That. She has her Masters Degree in Chemistry. Was a TA and taught student nurses and pre-med students in a Chemistry Course which she called Cowboy Chemistry. Was told by nursing students that girls do not go into science because of the math and chemistry involved. Daughter’s reply was this broad enjoys math and expecially chemistry analytical. So, I think these six ladies will pick up on the facts as if they already have not and will vote GUILTY.

  100. fauxmccoy says:

    interesting stuff from state’s witness gordon plesants, GZ’s former instructor

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Did you see my response to you about George going to prison?

        • Tzar says:

          YEs I did, He so deserves murder 2

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Toe toe totally agree.
            But, “in any event”, as that creepy MOM says, he’s going to prison.
            Did I just read above he could get as much as 60?

          • Trained Observer says:

            Corey’s office must have had some intense discussions, trying to decide between M1 and M2.

            Am disappointed that the gun woman waffled a bit today during cross on “pressed” — hope State clears that up in rebuttal.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i wish he had been more effective as a witness — but that was certainly challenging as far as taking testimony goes. i’d think he would have some insight into the inner workings of fogen’s brain … but maybe that is why he is on vacation in remote locations for months… a mental floss, if you will.

  101. YQ says:

    The State has hammered the defense this week. Ashame to hear them closing soon wth only a few more witnesses. The unprepared defense is serving Zimmerman up on a silver platter complete with an apple in his mouth. Another note, Judge Nelson seems to be poised to throw Zimmerman a hard 60 for the inconvenience of trying to buy too much time. If the jury finds guilt collectively, Fogen might get the toughest time known to man.

    • abbyj1 says:

      YQ, That would be a blessing.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I was watching PoliticsNation and, two of the talking heads said, the state doesn’t have enough to prove or get a M2 conviction, based on what Serino said about believing Fogen acted in self defense. I don’t know what else the state has but, I hope we get to see this things that were sealed.

      I feel so bad for Trayvon and his family, if this wale blubber is allowed to get away with his crime or, if he is convicted on a lesser offense.

      • EdgySF says:

        I saw that, too, ladystclaire. It sobered me up.

        What I really hope to avoid is …I can’t even type it. I don’t want the verdict to be favorable to the killer, lets put it that way.

        I can feel myself becoming overly invested in the verdict…I suffered a lot when Casey Anthony was freed because nobody would ever be held accountable for Kasey being killed and then discarded like trash.

        • Tee says:

          These are the same people who said that Casey Anthony would be found guilty. No one can read a jury, many have tried and failed. I am telling you, God put them women on that jury for a reason men see things in black & white. We women feel things even if we cant put our finger on it we know when something is wrong or out of place. We know when we’re being lied to , we may not say anthing at that moment but we know. That’s why men get caught cheating, because we feel that crap first and when he lie to us after we ask then we go seek out the truth.

          • This is what I’m hoping for Tee. Everything I see & hear while watching makes me ponder what the 6 lady jurors think. What convinces me is unimportant. I scour tweets from people in the crtroom for jury reaction. I read about note taking, hair clip changing, boredom, stares, looking at the clock (there are several people that saw that) and even though all the pundits are poo pooing the states case – my ridiculous analysis of reading like 80 jury observations is that there is alot in GZ’s defense that they find silly. I get the sense (I know ridiculous) that the GZ’s self defense comes across like your kids fake flu and then mom just rolls her eyes and hands em’ the lunch box. Finally, I polled my wife who has not been engaged and is from South America about her instant reaction to players in the courtroom, within about 10 mins of viewing; GZ-STUPID MAN, BDL-RELIABLE, DW-DISGUSTING, MOM-LIAR. JG/MANTEI-BEAUTIFUL.
            And Tee your right – I know my wife has a spy following me all day – she just knows everything and often keeps it quiet till the conditions r right..then gently lets me know she knows ;). Heartbreaking TM will not get these gifts…gut wrenching.

          • MedicineBear says:


            And there will be no male authority in their deliberations to brow beat those women out of their gut instincts (not to mention, the State has supplied hard evidence to confirm their gut instincts).

      • Mary says:

        this is why you shouldn’t listen to talking heads: serino’s testimony where it consists of his opinion as to the guilt or innocence of the defendant has been stricken from the record and the jury instructed not to give it any weight.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Doesn’t matter that it was stricken. You can’t un-hear something.

        • volgaknight says:

          Interesting that you say that, Tee. I agree that, now that the prosecution is about to rest, the verdict will be in the hands of these six women, and their special insight, their sixth sense.

          I would be less than truthful if I didn’t express a slight sense of disappointment in the manner in which the prosecution handled this case. Maybe the good professor could straighten me out on this, but, it is what it is. Empirically speaking, the evidence was overwhelming. From DNA evidence, to medical reports; from impossible timelines, to state of mind; the prosecution was handed a veritable potpourri of incriminating evidence and, instead of hammering it home with the confidence of an open and shut case they allowed the defense to diffuse, confuse, and/or, convert these winning arguments to the defense’s benefit. Instead of a barrage of obvious calls for “objection,” they sleep-walked through the defense’s cross exams. These prosecution attorneys seemed to be the only lawyers in the country that didn’t see what the defense was doing.

          Earlier, when I heard that the prosecution had acquiesced to an all white panel of women, I hesitated at first, but, then I felt, O.K, good. I thought that this meant that these six women would look at the facts offered, assign thoughtful, studied significance to them, and, basically, take a “no-nonsense,” deductive, and cognitive approach in deciding the verdict.
          So, here we are; instead of a “slam-dunk,” we’ve got a nail biter. One way, or another, the evidence did get in there. While I believe it was mishandled by the prosecutors it did come in, albeit through a thicket of defense obfuscation. So, Tee, it will come down to the good sense of these six ladies, and their ability to see through all the crap the defense was allowed to through in their eyes to try and confuse the issues.

          The truth is out there, let’s hope The Six see it.

      • Nef05 says:

        I didn’t see that, but I have concerns. Based more on what has been unsaid by the prosecution, more than what has been said by the defense. Especially now that it looks like “maybe” the ME or FDLE might testify, but possibly not both.

        Also, I and others, who have been studying the DNA results for a year, still would like the professor to further clarify what happened in court today. I can’t imagine what it’s like for the jury, who heard all this today, presumably for the first time and don;t have a Professor Leatherman to explain it to them. That makes me anxious as well, since their full understanding of what was said is (imo) critical – given all they haven’t been told.

        Sorry, guys. I know some people get upset when we don’t all agree that everything is rainbows and glitter, but I have to call it like I see it. And, I have some concerns.

        But, look on the bright side – it’s only one person’s opinion, and thus, it doesn’t really mean much in the scheme of things, right?

        • KA says:

          I do not believe that they only have two witnesses left. I do not think the people saying that know anything.

          Earlier it was 8 witnesses….now it is 2?

          Also, no one knows when the State will rest because they have two wild card defense attorneys that will drag this out as long as they can….they need donations and for it to be front and center in everyone’s mind by every media outlet known to man.

          • Nef05 says:

            Actually, I’m just going by what the professor stated in the article that the prosecution is scheduled to rest on Friday, possibly by noon. Given that Sybrina is probably one of them, I estimate possibly an hour, though who knows how long the defense can stretch that out. Anyone else, this late in the case would take some time. If we see witnesses authenticating evidence rather than giving explanatory testimony, on a day the prosecution is scheduled to rest, that just won’t make much sense to me.

          • disappointed says:

            Nef05 I do not think the defense will drag Friday out. They will want Sabrina off the stand and forgotten before the weekend and the Jurors thinking about that poor Mother. jmo

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            Are their donations still being publicized? I haven’t heard much since mom’s last public beg for $$$. I wonder how many suckers are out there

      • Girlp says:

        I hope BLDR’s redirect helped with Serino’s testimony, Serino did not have much of the witness testimony (because they refused to take it or told the witness it was self-defense) nor did he have all the forensics…I’m not happy with Serino at the same time I wonder if he was between a rock and a hard place at the time.

        • Nef05 says:

          I thought the same, about rock and hard place. But, I had hoped that just asking him for facts might give him some cover. Something like:

          “Did you see a conflict in where the defendant told you the altercation took place and where you saw the body?”

          “Did you see a conflict in where the defendant said he first saw Trayvon in the first interview, on the map and where he later said he first saw Trayvon, on the map?”

          These show the defendant’s “internally conflicting and demonstrably false” statements, while at the same time giving Serino the out by telling the cops he works with that he was under oath and had to answer the questions he was asked truthfully. Based on Serino’s “among other things” when he was asked about “exaggeration” I believe he WANTED to say what he knew, but he was never asked. JMO.

          • Ms.X says:

            Or even, why did you recommend he be charged with manslaughter if you believed his testimony and thought he was innocent? What are some of the things he said that you found to be inconsistent? Why didn’t you point out to him that he was facing an address when he said he wanted to get an address? Why didn’t you ask him why he walked through to a street he knew to be RetreatView Circle to see a street sign that would most likely be RetreatView Circle? I’m sure there were a MULTITUDE of questions they could’ve asked of him & many other witnesses that would keep them from being defense witnesses, BUT THEY DIDN’T. If I can think of probing questions as a frickin art teacher, they should be able to blast it out of the water.

            One of the things that was so glaringly obvious is the direction the blood was running on one of the bloody head photos. They passed up NUMEROUS opportunities to point out and ask medical professionals if the direction of the blood was consistent with laying on your back, which it clearly was not. They didn’t ask if the cuts on the head were consistent with running into a tree or if the 1 gash was consistent with hitting your head on a sprinkler. Presumably, they have had infinite chances to walk the crime scene and see these things up close & personal. They also didn’t play or offer a transcript or even really question any of the witnesses who gave contradictory testimony, which would be Jenna, John & Jon Manalo. They didn’t get Manalo to state that he was CHATTING casually about the gun he just used to execute a kid. This prosecution team has not tried to offer a single alternative scenario for how it might be possible for a frickin school boy to beat up a grown man with mixed martial arts training & leave no DNA evidence. They have been totally willing to further endorse & promote the notion that Trayvon beat him up, which to me is illogical & ridiculous. Either the team is incompetent or they are throwing the case. Mrs. Corey has been there many days in the front row possibly making sure they maintain their mediocrity & put on a show without meeting the burden of proof. If the examples I’ve given haven’t been enough, I have many more. I could go all night.

            How would you feel if your teenage son had been murdered for no apparent reason except for his skin color, and you could CLEARLY SEE that those sworn to pursue justice on behalf of your murdered child weren’t doing it & there wasn’t a fucking thing you could do about it? Tray’s parents have lawyers who can see whats going on, and can see that they are putting on just enough of a show that people will barely be able to question them without getting accussed of being hysterical, bitter reverse racists. What you are seeing, if you have eyes to see, is a perfect illustration of institutionalized racism. Judge Nelson, who I really like in general, didn’t even have the sensitivity to put a gag order on the attorneys so omara wouldn’t be on tv every night besmirching & vilifying the reputation of THE TRUE VICTIM, & victimizing his family & friends over & over. After all, omara’s right to raise money & say whatever he wants far outweighs the wrongness of telling lies about a dead black boy.

            I know I’m a Debbie downer, but I’ve always spoken the truth as I know it to be. I wish I could see things differently & I wish the prosecution was doing things differently. They have no fire to win. NONE. I a scared to death for my son & the sons of my race. If gz gets any type of sentence, it will be a miracle. It will be divine intervention-God’s plan. I so hope he gets some kind of time, but if he does it will be inspite of the prosecution, not because of them.

          • roderick2012 says:


            I completely agree with your assessment of the State’s performance.

            I am still in shock that Guy offered in his opening statement that John Good saw Trayvon on top of George as if it were fact.

            What also has troubled me is the intense clannishness of some of the witnesses like Singleton, Serino and the PA who blurted out that people have a right to defend themselves when that wasn’t part of her questioning from the defense.

            It’s as if some of the State witnesses spent time being coached by the defense. *sigh*

          • nocamo33 says:

            I believe the MMA event was Trayvon trying to hold off Zimmerman from shooting him. Trayvon had every right to defend himself and use force to do so. John saw a few seconds. Trayvon briefly having the upper hand (the point of self defense) is not proof he was the aggressor.

      • Malisha says:

        Cops’ opinions do not matter. Evidence matters. Judge Nelson is perfectly capable of instructing the jury to make conclusions about self-defense (if it is even put into evidence during the defense’s case, that is) based on evidence and not based on what Serino or Singleton “believed.”

        • William Walton says:

          Malisha, yes opinions do matter. Also, evidence does matter. It is up to the person or people intrepting the evidence that does matter. Yes, the judge can instruct the jury. However, based on testimony, each juror will have to make up her mind as to what she heard during trial and how it will be based in the final verdict which will be delibered to the court.

          • Malisha says:

            But listening to the tapes of Serino and Singleton questioning Fogen, any intelligent person picks up on the obvious point that neither of them believes him. “Oh you want us to pretend?” asks Singleton — and then corrects herself as if she uttered a bad word. This, to the guy who announced “fucking punks” on the police tape? “That’s following [chuckle]” says Serino. This, after he had asked, “what do you know about what criminals wear? It’s black on black on black.” At times the interviews are so ridiculous that if it were an episode of “Law & Order” the boss would burst into the room and pull the cop out of the room by his or her ear and then say in the hallway: “WHAT ARE YOU DOING?” But one thing can be seen from the interviews: They do not believe Fogen. HE, on the other hand, doesn’t even realize this. HE keeps elaborating like a four-year-old explaining how he was the hero. I concede, of course, that it DOES matter that Serino stated he believed Fogen (what a disgrace) and that Singleton was so overtly hostile to the state. You wouldn’t have found a pair more ashamed of doing their job properly than in the Soviet Union circa 1970.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        Serino had not seen the forensic evidence at the time he believed Fogen acted in self defence.

        • William Walton says:

          So, then what changes after he sees the forensic evidence. There should have been visual evidence which would have suggested that the killing of TM went one way or another. Howevr, I am just a lowly man of science, so what would I know with people like you pontificating to know all

      • PiranhaMom says:

        Serino had no forensic evidence at the time he believed Fogen’s claim of self-defense.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Aren’t those the same people who predicted that Romney would win the election by a landslide? Don’t think I would bet the farm on their opinions….

        • ZCBest says:

          LOL…so true!

        • Nef05 says:

          I don’t believe so.Politics Nation is on MSNBC, and I watched it extensively during election season. It was my primary source and default station (LOVE Dr. Maddow). So, no I’m pretty positive that their commentators never predicted that Romney was going to win by a landslide, even after the first debate debacle.

  102. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — with your experience with dna evidence, could you expand as much as possible as to the relatively raw data we heard in court?

    • masonblue says:

      Yes, but I got to run a few errands.


      • fauxmccoy says:


        • William Walton says:

          That goes back to the ’60’s. Reminded me of the general store in the Grass Creek Field, Wyoming, Was an oilfield camp, grew into a villiage, and then disappeared into oblivion in later years. The general store was taken up by a group of late ’60’s hippies. One could go in there and be greeted with “Hey Man Groovy”. They would have bread, cheese, and cold meat on the counter. These delicacies were curling at the edges as the remainder to the hippies were dustinfg away flies which were eating on that which was to be consumed. My comment to their request was “No because it hums.” Went back to University days when things were left in the Fridge to long, they began to look funky. See, Faux, I may be old but do not always act old.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            good to hear mr walton

            i was but a kid in the 60s and spent the first few years of my life in the city of Orange, CA.

            i do have vivid memories of my mom leaving her kids in the car when she ran into the dry cleaners and my bro and i hooking up with a bunch of hippies gathered around the AM radio in their yellow bug. it was apparently an exciting moment because the song ‘come together’ was just released and being played on the LA airwaves for the first time.

            my bro and i were flashing peace signs, trying to crawl through the car window to go dance with them in the parking lot … all stuff my mother found horrifying when she came back to the car.

            they made a huge impression, i’ve been looking for them for years 🙂

      • abbyj1 says:

        Great. Eager to hear, Fred.

  103. MichelleO says:

    Fogen’s last holiday.

    • Malisha says:

      Not really. They do celebrate holidays in prison. Some very nice people and organizations make presentations, bring cookies, organize events. It is possible that someone like Fogen can begin to experience a more normal kind of life in prison. Less fantasy, more moderation.

      • abbyj1 says:

        Malisha, Call me fire and brimstone, but I hope not. I hope that GZ doesn’t normalize in prison at all. I hope he is so under threat that he can’t even go out into the general population for the rest of his sorry-assed life. And I pray to God that no one brings him cookies and treats and encourages him to participate in organized events–unless it’s Russian roulette. No pity from me. Ever. He killed a kid because he WANTED to. I hope his life is a living hell, every second, from this day forward. Trayvon did nothing to deserve to be murdered at the hands of a worthless POS like GZ.

        • anita says:

          Well said. He won’t adapt in prison because he’ll be paranoid every second, with good reason. Won’t he have to be kept in solitary for his own rotten ass safety?

        • Two sides to a story says:

          The entire idea is to realize one’s errors and rehabilitate and transform oneself . . . just sayin’.

        • Everything you said, Abbyj!

        • ladystclaire says:

          SPOT ON abbyj1 SPOT ON. I wonder just how long, do they keep INFIDEL’S like Fogen in PC. But, if someone wants to get his ass bad enough, they will find a way trust me they will.

          He will be looking over his shoulder, for the rest of his miserable life and, that is truly GOD’S PLAN. He deserves what ever evil is coming his way.

    • Trained Observer says:

      From now on, he’ll need to settle for Fouth of July fireworks on television … on those occasions when he has access.

  104. Elijah says:

    To me Mr. Gorgone’s demeanor and professionalism is a study in communications.. I noticed that he kept looking behind him at the jury as he was explaining & pointing….as Zimmerman said not knowing he was referring to DNA SCIENCE, “it’s g-ds plan”.

  105. Nellie Nell says:

    I have some catching up to do. I have to go back and watch the testimony from Dr. Rao and all of today because I was working while trying to watch and am sure that I missed plenty. Plus, I need to see that fine young man again. (wink wink) That will be how I spend my holiday.

  106. ay2z says:

    Someone on last thread said Judge Nelson sounded as if she was about to spit nails (or something similar) about West’s protestations for a delay, more time, whine whine…

    Here’s a video link to that exasperation smack down

    • Sophia33 says:

      Love it!

    • Malisha says:

      End. Of. Discussion.

      • abbyj1 says:

        Malisha, I do hope it’s the end of discussion. That whiny MOM and that smarmy West keep pushing and pushing and pushing. They are truly trying the patience of the judge. I wonder whether they have any idea how much she appears to loathe them for disrespecting her. The fact that they have never quit pushing and demanding—despite her utter clarity in her NOs–makes me wonder whether they’ll give it up. I don’t think so. They’re completely oblivious to Judge Nelson’s admonitions.

        • KA says:

          Has any of the arguing with the judge been in front of the jury…I have just lost count.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            no — they haven’t seen any of this. they do see routine objections and west losing his temper when interviewing a 19 year old girl though.

        • Jose Padilla says:

          Some lawyers do this. If they lose on a ruling, they keep bringing it up over and over. I’ve even seen this tactic work a couple,of times.

      • concernedczen says:

        Malisha and professor,

        Is Bernie throwing this case on purpose? The prosecution has let the defense get away with so many shenanigans.

        Why didn’t they as the JAG lawyer whether or not someone who has a gun pointing at them is entitled to try to fight off the person threatening him?

        So many witnesses they just let the defense get away with asking about fantastical scenarios not based in reality.

        • boyd says:

          I hope Bernie is laying a trap for MOM.. .
          maybe Bernie can bring out witness #9 ,a survivor of George’s crimes.

        • Judy75201 says:

          How you can think this case is being “thrown” is beyond me.

          • disappointed says:

            Bernie and Prosecution team is getting the evidence in. They can not testify to the evidence. What we know the jury will have access too. They will get to read text messages which we may never get to see. If we do it may be after the verdict is read. Have a little faith. Bernie is not throwing anything. He has fought for Trayvon for over a year.

          • riisey007 says:

            Well I think people have seen a window of opportunities that were missed by prosecution. The military attorney ho was a prosecution witness actually ended up helping the defense and that has happened with a few other witnesses. The jurors are not going to send Zimmerman away for a lifetime based on hunches. Let’s just see what happens.

          • boyd says:

            how is George lying about not knowing SYG helpful to defense?
            that was the purpose of the testimony

          • cielo62 says:

            Judy~ EITHER they’re trolls, OR students who have NOT done their homework and don’t pay attention in class.


        • Malisha says:

          I do not think he is throwing the case for the simple reason that to throw the case, he would have had to leave out many things that he already brought IN. For instance, none of us had any idea that Fogen’s medical records SPECIFICALLY REFERRED TO INTENSIVE MMA training. Bernie got that in and it was a bombshell! If you want to throw a case, don’t introduce something like that. Now the jurors are supposed to visualize poor Fogen underneath skinny Trayvon being dominated, beaten mercilessly, and can’t use his hands, his knees, his teeth, or his considerable weight to throw off his torturer. They’re supposed to believe he was being KILLED while he never did anything but yell “Help me Help me” and they’re supposed to believe the result was two cuts (one 1/4 inch and the other 1/2 inch) and a pimplenose. If Bernie wanted to throw the case, there would be much better ways to throw it.

          I think what he’s doing is convicting Fogen while, on his tightrope, he completely exonerates SPD for their role in the cover-up. I’m actually impressed that he’s doing it with such exquisite precision. Ugh, how sickening.

          • Sophia33 says:

            Let the SPD fry. They don’t deserve protection.

          • boyd says:

            hell no he’s not throwing the case after 1 year of working on it.

            But did they allow the defense to run the clock out on them?

            they are not allowed to bring forth more witnesses after friday.

          • Trained Observer says:

            “I think what he’s doing is convicting Fogen while, on his tightrope, he completely exonerates SPD for their role in the cover-up. I’m actually impressed that he’s doing it with such exquisite precision.” — Malisha

            I agree, BDLR is doing this with great finesse … which pains me somewhat in that the Sanford PD deserves to be gutted from stem to stern ASAP.

            Yet the first priority is Justice for Trayvon by getting Fogen off the streets. Only then can the Sanford PD, Norm Wolfinger and other cover-up participants like SheLie and some of the eye wits be exposed for what they are and targeted for what they deserve.

        • cielo62 says:

          concerned~ have you been watching the trial??? The total debunking of the head-slamming, mouth smothering and MMA style blows to the head? The total LACK of gz DNA on Trayvon’s hands, shirts, cuffs? The agonizing scream that ENDS with the gunshot?? WHAT IS BEING THROWN?


          • crazy1946 says:

            Too many of the folks are (IMO too many) looking for a Perry Mason/CSI result in this trial. It is all too easy to sit back and second guess what the state is doing when you have no real skin in the process! Are there thing that have not been introduced that I would have liked to have seen in there? Yes, but I am not a seasoned prosecutor that has successfully completed more cases than most seem to realize. There will be some even after the case is completed that will continue to complain but then again perhaps that is their nature. Folks it is close to being finished, perhaps a little positive energy from you would be a good thing? Try it, you might like it……

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ I get crazy myself when people don’t look at the BIG PICTURE. There is no way that the prosecution can present every little detail we have studied for over a year to a group of jurors in only a few weeks. I know when I don’t know something. SO I rely on “experts”. I don’t fix my own car; I go to a mechanic~ an expert. I don’t treat my own fur children for serious ailments; I take them to the vet. SO, I have never tried a murder case. SOOOOO, I rely on the prosecution team to do it right. So far, they are doing well with a solid case that does NOT include every detail but that DOES cement that gz murdered Trayvon.


        • concernedczen says:


          Do not assume that people who do not see things your way are automatically “trolls.”

          As someone else has pointed out, there have been a number of missed opportunities by the prosecution.

          There have been a number of times that the prosecution just sat on their hands while the defense asked improper questions.

          There is a lot of evidence that HAS NOT been presented.

          The case against Zimmerman is strong…but that is not what has been presented.

          Where’s the fight expert? What about a child abduction expert to talk about how a child might react to be watched, then followed, then chased in the dark?

          The most important part is that Trayvon had a right to defend himself. It doesn’t matter if Trayvon was on top or on the bottom or got in a few hits. This point has not been made in the questions asked by the prosecution.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Concerned — Am not concerned by most of your concerns. Moreover, you neglect to notice that the trial is not over.

          • concernedczen says:

            Good for you Trained Observer. I guess we will see how things turn out, but I’m not terribly optimistic at this point. Given the right jurors, they might see it your way, but the fact is that the defense got the jury they wanted and the defense has been allowed to try to confuse and muddy the waters with the leeway they have been given on cross.

          • cielo62 says:

            Concerned/ now here is another example if whether you are watching the same trial. This jury benefits THE DEFENSE? All women jury, 5 of which are mothers? One biracial? This jury benefits the prosecution 40 years til Sunday!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • cielo62 says:

            Concerned- your posts suggest that you know better than the prosecution what is “too much” information. I fully believe the prosecution is doing KISS (keep it simple stupid). Barraging the jury with every detail that WE had the luxury of discovering over months would be counter productive. It gets tiring to have all the naysayers screaming about what I bad job Bernie et al are doing. And that naysaying and complaining IS part if what a troll does. Sometimes I’m right. Sometimes I’m wrong. The intelligence and conversations on this site are important to me.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • Oh snap. JN is super reasonable. Really, you have to be waaaayyyy in the wrong to hear her say that.

    • Trained Observer says:

      JN’s been a model of decorum … don’t know how she stomachs these two Defense clowns.

    • riisey007 says:

      I watched it on HLN live, she asked him why was it that he needed more time and basically that he screwed up his time that he asked for previously and she graciously gave. She said that the jurors are sequestered and they need to get home to their families as soon as possible and that is also when she said that prosecution would be resting today and they were under the agreement that defense would take over from there. She is not going to keep people longer for no reason.

    • Girlp says:

      The woman means business! Don’t mess with her.

  107. My Forehead Tho says:

    Everything, including Fogen’s word, refutes his claims.

  108. Sophia33 says:


    I missed the testimony later in the day getting groceries. Can you explain how the evidence refutes GZ’s story? Also, how did Trayvon’s DNA get on GZ’s back?

    • Sophia33 says:

      Mind you, I am just going off what I think I read in the last thread.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Just a guess but, wild MMA swings would have produced some bodily fluid contact either on hands or sleeves if he were using his arms, especially a person who was already bleeding from having been struck in the nose. Grasping an almost bald head would produce some DNA especially if he held it for a time wile repeatedly banging it. Smothering while pressing full body weight on a mouth and nose, would produce some fluid transfer especially blood, since the nose was already bleeding, but, not excluding mucous and saliva on hands or sleeves, Because there is none shows that the fight could not have possibly happened the way fogen said it did. Which means he is lying and there is only one reason a person would lie, that is to hide the truth,

      • Sophia33 says:

        O.K. Nothing different then what we already knew. What about the blood on GZ’s back from TM?

        • Sabrina B. says:

          That, I’m not sure. Speculation is that he could not have been laying down when he shot Trayvon and did it from a stand position which would have caused blow back of Trayvon’s blood up the sleeve and onto the back.

          • Sophia33 says:

            I see. Thanks for the explanation.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Absolutely – but blowback was from Zimmerman’s kneeling position over Trayvon, with Zimmerman’s back and neck ARCHED OVER Trayvon’s upper body so Zimmerman’s right hand could carefully place the Kel-Tek barrel on the “sweet shot” under the button on the clenched shirt, to pierce Trayvon’s heart.

            “What comes up must come down” but the blowback would not shoot 5 ft. into the air. Came straight up and settled back – Zimmerman’s shoulder/back that was hunched forward would present a horizontal plane on which the blood landed.

          • William Walton says:

            Stated that they were both standing when TM was shot ages ago, Much has been said about GZ being a bouncer, etc. but is this really relavent? One commentator suggested that GZ being a bouncer would have thrown TM down on the ground. However, as a scientist, My take on it is that GZ grabbed TM while both are standing. Think about it, GZ and TM while standing, TM was grabbed from behind by GZ by GZ’s left hand. Which would be normal for grabbing. I am left handed and I will always grab for something left handed. Now then, GZ had TM secured in his left hand grip and now wants to shoot him. Therefore, GZ would have to aim to avoid shooting himself in his left hand. Elementary My Dear Watson!

      • kllypyn says:

        He would not be able to put his full 158lb body weight on Zimmerman nose unless he was doing handstands.

      • nocamo33 says:

        I believe the MMA event was Trayvon trying to hold off Zimmerman from shooting him. Trayvon had every right to defend himself and use force to do so. John saw a few seconds. Trayvon briefly having the upper hand (the point of self defense) is not proof he was the aggressor.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Trayvon Never had the upper hand. He never touched gz’s skin.

          If anything Trayvon may have appeared to have the upper hand, but in reality that was only him trying his best to pull away. He failed to pull away, because gz was holding him tightly.

          gz pulled the kid down and reversed their positions then shot him. He only needed a second to do so, then flip the body to explain why he was seen on top. All that talk about he didn’t think he was dead is just blather. You don’t press a gun into the clothing of someone, just left of midline and expect the bullet to miss. Besides the point that Trayvon would immediately go limp after the shot, so you’d know that he had been hit.

          I have to beg to differ with those who think that gz pulled his gun much earlier than the shot he fired. A person at gunpoint does not scream and holler. At gunpoint you remain very still! The hope is not to give the gunman a reason to fire and movement or noise can spook him.

          Trayvon, most likely was screaming and hollering in pain from some hold that gz applied. Trayvon never knew or cared about a gun being present at that time. Only at the last moment, when gz drew the gun, did he catch Trayvon by surprise and caused him to yell “Stop!” gz did not want to stop, he discharged his weapon anyway, right into the heart of this young boy! He then flipped him over and squeezed the last remaining life from his body. There is no evidence that says otherwise.

          • Wanda Boyes says:

            AND, Why is no one asking if the bloody but superficial wounds on Zimmerman could be self- inflicted ( or consistent with)? It seems so obvious to me that GZ pulled his gun which elicited a normal fight or flight reaction from TM. He’s on top attempting to keep his assailant’s gun arm pinned, screaming for help, lost his hold allowing GZ to fire the gun which he then used to cause trauma to his own face to appear beat-up (wouldn’t require a very painful hit to cause swelling & a bloody nose), and Voila! Self defense. He may have committed the perfect murder & he could walk! Why hasn’t any such scenario been advanced by the State? Is there evidence to refute this that doesn’t come from Zimmerman’s lying lips? This is really bothering me.

  109. Sophia33 says:


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