Zimmerman trial and the strategic use of peremptory challenges UPDATED

Saturday, June 15, 2013

Good morning:

I write today to explain another jury selection rule that is important for a lawyer to consider when deciding whether to exercise a peremptory challenge.

The order in which the PJs (prospective jurors) were called determines the order in which the PJ’s fill in as PJs are excused for cause and peremptory challenge.

For example, let us suppose that we have 10 PJs numbered 1-10.

Let us also suppose that PJs 1, 5, 6, and 9 are excused either for cause or by peremptory challenge.

The new order is 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 and 10.

If we have a jury of 4 with 1 alternate, the jury will be composed of former PJs 2, 3, 4 and 7. They will now be known as jurors 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Former PJ 8 will become the alternate and PJ 10 will be excused.

Therefore, the order in which the PJs have been called is important. They were called in this order. The strike-throughs have been excused.

Monday 4 (B12, B29, B30, B76)

Tuesday 10 (B7, B35, B37, B51, B55, B65, B86, E6, E40, E54)

Wednesday 10 (E73, M75, R39, B61, B72, E22, B87, E7, E13, E28)

Thursday 10 (E50, E75, E81, K80, K95, N18, B34, B67, P67, G14)

Friday 7 (G29, G47, G63, G66, G81, G87, H6)

We now have 29 PJs passed for cause on the issues of hardship and pretrial publicity. This is the new order after removing the excused PJs:

B-12 F 40s-50s White
B-29 F 40s Black
B-76 F 50s-60s White
B-7 M 40s-50s White
B-35 M 40s-50s Black
B-37 F 50s White
B-51 F 60s-70s White
B-55 F 20s E. Indian
B-86 F 50s White
E-6 F 20s-30s White
E-40 F 50s-60s White
E-54 M 60s-70s White
E-73 F 60s White
M-75 F 30s Black
B-61 F 20s White
B-72 M 20s White/Bi-racial
E-22 F 50-60 Black
E-13 F 20s White
E-28 F 50s-60s White
K-80 F 40s-50s White
K-95 F 40s-50s White
P-67 M 40s-50 Hispanic
G-14 F 40s-50s White
G-29 F 30s Black
G-47 M 20s White
G-63 M 20s Mixed
G-66 F 50s White
G-81 M 30s-40s Black
H-6 M 30s-40s White

If the 6-person jury and 4 alternates were to be selected from this group, the jury would be composed of:

B12, B29, B76, B7, B35 and B37.

The four alternates would be:

B51, B55, B86 and E6.

The rest of the PJs would be excused:

We are still a long way from exercising peremptory challenges because Judge Nelson wants to create a pool of 40 PJs passed for cause on the issues of hardship and pretrial publicity. She has 17 to go after 5 days of individual voir dire.

When she gets to 40, she will bring all 40 together in the original order in which they were called and the lawyers will question them one at a time on other subjects asserting challenges for cause when they think they have established a proper basis to support it.

Examples of other subjects are, whether a PJ has ever been a victim of a violent crime or knows someone who has been, whether they are employed in law enforcement or know someone who is, whether they know any of the witnesses to be called during the trial. There are many other subjects, obviously.

Voir dire will reduce the group of 40 to some lesser number, hopefully not below 30, because at least 30 are needed to select 6 jurors and 4 alternates, assuming both sides use their full complement of 10 peremptories each, 6 for the jury and 4 for the alternates. (30 – 20 = 10)

When the lawyers begin to exercise their peremptories, they will be focusing on the first 6 in the order in which the PJs are then aligned. The 6 will be seated in the jury box. As 1 of the 6 is excused, he or she will be replaced by the PJ in the 7th position. When the next one is excused, and it could be the 7th PJ that moved into the box, he or she will be replaced by the PJ in the 8th position and so on until each side accepts the jury or uses its full complement of 6 peremptories.

The selection of alternates will proceed in the same fashion beginning with the first alternate and proceeding to the second, etc.

Key Point to Remember: A lawyer must know the order in which the PJs are advancing toward a seat on the jury when deciding whether to use a peremptory challenge. You don’t want to use your last challenge only to have someone worse replace the PJ you just eliminated.

Another Key Point to Remember: Jury selection is not about selecting who you want on the jury. It is about selecting who you do not want. In tomorrow’s post I will discuss the classification system that I used to decide who I did not want on a jury.

UPDATE: This article has been updated with information obtained from the Orlando Sentinel regarding the PJs who have been passed into the next round of questioning.


Your continuing support allows me to continue posting independent articles like this.

Please consider making a donation to keep independent journalism alive.

Thank you

450 Responses to Zimmerman trial and the strategic use of peremptory challenges UPDATED

  1. bettykath says:

    Professor, did you edit the excused? I copied the list yesterday and want back thru other posts making comments and now my list of who has been excused due to pre-trial publicity doesn’t match yours. I don’t have another source so will use yours but I need some help here – have I lost “it” (my mind) or your list change?

  2. Malisha says:

    Here’s the report of Internal Investigation after the Sherman Ware event. It does not look to me as if Tooley was the heavy here but he was on his way out at that point anyway so why not make him the fall guy?

    Timothy Smith was indeed involved.


    • Malisha says:

      So only the person who tried to straighten out the problem in the Ware case (Hargrett) seems to have been punished; Chief Tooley was BLAMED without any indication that he was responsible for or aware of any wrongdoing. I’ll bet the real problem came from Wolfinger.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Not just Smith. I saw Raimondo, McNeil, Taylor, Villanova.

      I was looking for the Ware video, I came across this one. Here the Sanford Police did not hesitate to arrest by standers.

  3. Malisha says:

    I was just imagining — if this were someone else’s trial and Fogen was a PJ brought in by one of the 500 jury summonses.

    Look at what his answers would be:

    Never convicted of a felony

    Religion Roman Catholic

    Education Associates Degree in Criminal Justice

    Background – mentored disadvantaged kids (remember that one?); activism on behalf of homeless (all his work for Ware case) and against police brutality (testimony against former Chief Tuohy); victim of domestic violence (He had a restraining order against Zueza); involved in lawsuit defending labor rights (where he kept his lawyer’s $6,000 by means of some little fraud) and tenants’ rights (called the police on his landlord); and from a family of civil rights advocates (father a Magistrate trying, life-long, to uphold the law, bro a gay rights leader); loves his unborn children and never questions God’s plan.

    Wow, give that man a SEAT and let him do JUSTICE!

  4. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Because today is Father’s Day, I would like to bring Xena’s video forward to this page:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I know that Tracy will truly appreciate Xena’s tribute and support. Xena has given public recognition of his goodness as a dad!

      Tracy in the midst of his grief and sorrow has uplifted Trayvon in such positive ways ………….by seeking justice for him, by reaching out to others who have lost a child, by advocating that there be “no more Trayvon’s”, by seeking a change in the SYG laws, and SO MUCH more.

      In doing these positive things, Tracy has made the darkness bright with loving light.

      Place a name upon the Night,
      One to set your heart alight.
      And to make the darkness bright,
      Paint the Sky with Stars.>blockquote>

  5. Malisha says:

    HAHA, I remember they tried to keep Fogen’s statements out of the evidence dumps by saying that they were “confessions.” The judge ruled against that one. They were obviously “excuses” and all of them were lies, as well. He was NOT the only one present when he said all that; Serino et al. were there as well.

  6. aussie says:

    Not hearsay. Prosecution can introduce it anytime. Same as they can say what he said to the police without video.

    I really think they will. If they introduce all of GZ lies, there’s nothing left for him to say when it’s his turn. (After they hard physical evidences of course).

  7. Head Line News (HLN) – running on about 2400 baud – is beginning to boot up!

    Red flags in Zimmerman’s police reenactment?

    Ya think?

    Well, good for them, but….the legal expert says the jury will never see the walk-through tape because it’s hearsay. First of all, what’s easier for the state to destroy- if he testifies? Or not? Either way…Second, the ‘expert’ is wrong.

    Fred will explain further.

    • While I agree with what Patti Wood (the body language expert) said, her area of expertise is considered junk science.

      Also, Jean the legal expert is wrong when she said that the reenactment tape is inadmissible hearsay unless GZ testifies. If the prosecution offers it into evidence, the tape is admissible as an admission by a party opponent, regardless if GZ testifies.

      • Jun says:

        Basically, the state can inject statements, but not the full video as evidence, right?

      • BOOM.

        Leatherman: 2

        HLN: 0 (zero point zero)

      • parrot says:


        I watch some of those pundits like Jean, and think, here I am, no degree in law, and I know that what they are saying is half-true, or a flat out lie, or a dumb-down for the audience they clearly hold in contempt.

      • Two sides to a story says:


      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s a shame that body language studies and astrology are considered junk science. I would consider them to be similar to psychology and psychiatry – soft sciences that have leeway for interpretation, but there’s no regulation of course, by academia, at least in our culture. Tibetan monastic Phds study astrology, if I’m not mistaken. The body language lady is right on in her observations.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides. In general, people think of and limit astrology to “horoscopes.” I never read my “horoscope.” Everyone’s planetary lineup is unique for their date, place, and time of birth. Astrology tells us of ourselves and others. It is intended to teach us about ourselves so we can overcome the negative, bring forth the positive, and understand our emotions and moods AND CONTROL them.

          As one who believes in Christ, I’ve taken my lumps from others because of my belief in certain aspects of astrology. For me however, the time and place of the birth of Jesus was not by accident, and those 3 wise men from the East looked for, saw, and followed his star until finding Jesus and presenting him with gifts.

          The time of GZ’s birth is not known, and astrologers interested in his life have used a noon time of birth for his chart. Had his parents recognized his characteristics based on his chart, they could have helped him. It’s too late now. He is engrained in dysfunctions and destined to live a life of isolation and bankruptcy.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ and what do you use as Jesus’ birthday? Surely NOT December 25. The gospels mention keeping watch over lambs, hence it’s in the spring. So many FUN things to ponder when looking through stories for facts.


          • Xena says:


            Xena~ and what do you use as Jesus’ birthday? Surely NOT December 25.

            My guess? Sometime just before or around the Feast of Tabernacles, early September, which would make Jesus a Virgo — the sign of man. No way was Jesus a Capricorn. Nothing against Capricorns, just that Jesus’ characteristics do not line-up with that sun sign, IMO.

            There’s a verse about his life being cut-short and when researched, when he was crucified, it was about half a year short of his 34th birthday. If going by the spiritual pattern of the Feasts, he was born around Tabernacles, crucified at Passover, and spirit sent to indwell man on Pentecost.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ Should have guessed I couldn’t stump you. Someday, when you’re bored, write up something for mine. 6/6/62 (twice the number of the beast, so watch out!)


          • Xena says:


            Xena~ Should have guessed I couldn’t stump you. Someday, when you’re bored, write up something for mine. 6/6/62 (twice the number of the beast, so watch out!)

            Small potatoes — my niece was born 6/6/66 and I had to babysit her. LOL!!

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! I remember when the LAST 6/6/06 came up. People were seriously going crazy about the “evil” of that number!


          • Xena says:


            LOL! I remember when the LAST 6/6/06 came up. People were seriously going crazy about the “evil” of that number!

            Now, you’re going to get me to go to my serious side. 🙂

            Man was created on the 6th day. He was created spirit, soul and body. 666 is simply a man that is natural in his actions, thinking, and how he lives; Self-centered and wrapped up in his own desires for natural, rather than spiritual understanding and way of life.

            The opposite, and what man was suppose to progress in and live by, is faith, hope, and love.

            It saddens me when people take symbolic numbers and make conspiracies about them, rather than looking within themselves.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Two great points by the body expert!

      • She gets it. Yup. I agree with the part about recalling a traumatic event, and also brings me to the 911 call involving “Jeremy, get in here.” That is not exactly what a call would sound like from my cell. Color me concerned, but I would likely be shouting “He’s got a gun!!! There’s kids living here and there’s a man with a gun! Oh my God he just…”

        You get my drift.

        They’d still be seeing to their ear doctors, in other words.

    • cielo62 says:

      Crane- still some diehard GZ fans commenting. More Trayvon supporters once real evidence is known.


      • Lord love a duck.

        This case is becoming a ground zero for lots of things, we were talking about this today. So, I think many comments come in for various reasons. I rarely visit other GZ fan comment threads anymore. The spewing puts a ‘harsh’ on this old woman’s ‘mellow’ these days! I am too tired to read the stuff that my mother would punish the 8th graders for, back in the day.

  8. lady2soothe says:

    What do you see? Then tip your head.

  9. Soulcatcher says:

    Happy Fathers Day to all.

    Just got back from the Doobie Brothers concert. They were pretty good. There was mostly middle age people there. I was surprised at the amount of people that were in their 60’s to 80’s. They were dancing in the isle’s as well, canes and all. The Doobies are pretty close or in that age group too, which means I’m headed not far behind them. I guess there were more than a few that haven’t given up the herb. The goods new is, I didn’t see any fights break out, just happy, happy, people groovin to the music.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Ha, love it – oldsters dancing canes and all. We had the best music ever and it tickles me to see my kids and grandkids loving the same stuff!

  10. Happy Father’s Day to all the wonderful dads.

    Lifting up Trayvon Martin’s family in prayer! Please remember the Martins in your prayers.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Verse 1:
      Tell me, Lord, please tell me,
      How long will it be until You vindicate me?
      Slander and lies spoken against me.
      Please don’t let my enemies triumph over me.

  11. Shari says:

    I meant to post this one. If you have a moment listen…

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Too much hypocrisy in this old southern town for me
      Way back in 1619 began this tragic story
      Thrown into slaveries then, their crime was the color of skin
      Never to see the light of the past again

      I wanna go where the mountains are high enough to echo my song
      I wanna go where the rivers run deep enough to drown my shame
      I wanna go where the stars shine bright enough to show me the way
      I wanna go where the wind calls my name
      The wind is calling India India India

      It’s a typical Savannah day
      So I take my guitar to the park and I play
      Sitting up under the live oak tree
      The strangest spirit came over me
      Is this the tree where my brother was hung?
      Is this the ground where his body was burnt?
      God gave to me the gift of song so I dedicate this one

      Superiority, who have you better than me
      Wasting precious time on racist mentality
      This is only the beginning
      The flesh will be pushing up daisies in the ending
      Spirit knows no color either you’re a hater or a lover

  12. Shari says:

    I hope that video posted.

    I was thinking about how hateful people are, especially E81? It’s very disheartening. You look for something to hold on to but we know hate and racism is learned not innate. What a frustrating process. How do we get through to those who would celebrate the death of an innocent kid? This reminds me of the lynchings and how the “good Christian folk” would gather and take photos. They would take body parts for souvenirs. They would hang pregnant slaves and cut their unborn children out of their wombs. Sick dogs and fire hoses on people who simply wanted to educate their children. Then they had the audacity to accuse black people of being uniquely violent. What we are seeing sadly is the frustration of these people that they can no longer do this.

  13. kllypyn says:

    Reblogged this on kllypyn.

  14. ay2z says:

    Good evening. Thanks Prof, I will have to reread everything about jury selection. G87 was indeed the woman I thought must be the one ‘outed’, thanks to SG2’s posted video. Obviously West knew this woman worked somewhere across the street from a ‘memorial’ with teddy bears, and where tour busses brought viewers to see the memorial. But more than that, the memorial may be one on scene at the neighborhood, and the memorial may have been the one placed at the entrance to the neighborhood. That would limit where this pj could work and see the memorial, and where busses could cause concern for a business or ‘school’.

    But how close was the black male educator, to being outed by O’Mara? And will he be able to discredit this PJ as he would were he a witness, using the ‘helicopter’ statement because this pj said he did not hear a helicopter and would have heard one?

    This seems to go very close to narrowing the pj’s location, and someone doing defense bidding, could out him if they try hard enough.

    Can the FDLEor other neutral law enforcement organization protect the pj’s well enough from those trying to undermine the system, as it seems those who are associated with police forces, and certain buddies in related areas, could find whomever tehy wanted, if they wanted to disrupt justice in favor of the defendant.

    Robert Zimmerman may have a hand in more than we realize.

    • aussie says:

      There is something more immediate and more dirty about “outing” a PJ like this….. it gets them sent home.

      Which means it can be used like an extra peremptory, especially against a juror who can’t be “peremptoried” properly because of being a minority.

      The educator is smart, he didn’t let himself get caught or caught out.
      IF he didn’t hear the chopper, he didn’t hear it, end of story: it’s not compulsory to hear it or pay enough attention to remember hearing it.

      But if someone says they heard it, that doesn’t help find them, as they could be anywhere under the route it took and half a mile either side of that. Or more. If they’re up high I can hear choppers that I know are 3 miles away. If they’re down low, I am sometimes surprised to see one I didn’t hear.

      Cross fingers, pray, whatever you do, this guy we need on the jury.

  15. Malisha says:

    Thinking about that Serino interview where he informs Fogen that Trayvon Benjamin Martin was not a “suspect” — that he was “not a punk” and that he was a “good kid” — a “kid with a future.”

    Fogen’s hearing that. He really knows, deep down inside, that he doesn’t “have a future.” He knows he’s a FAIL, already.

    What would have made Fogen believe he could identify a “suspect” and take action and be sure of himself and do whatever he thought was right in the circumstances — without authority?

    Look at these TV shows, crime shows, cop shows, all the same, basically. The cops have suspicions. They follow their instincts. They apprehend folks and call them “punks” and “scum” and etc. They manhandle them just short of actual actionable “police brutality.” They do it all in the best interests of the vulnerable, worshipful, weak and needy PUBLIC. They help people who weep and wail and tear their hair and wring their hands. They become enraged on behalf of the innocent decent Americans, helpless women and children, sad folks who look to them to make the world right. Sometimes these cops go too far; their bosses fuss at them and then secretly appreciate their passion, their unerring ability to sniff out bad guys and do the right thing.

    This whole fake set-up is the entire point of every one of these, regardless of the plot. Over and over and over and over, these “maverick cops” do what they should not do and because of that, they save the world. One world, two, three, millions of little worlds, all dependent upon the “outside-the-lines” conduct of the HERO.

    The HERO is played by a handsome man with a strong jaw and lots of testosterone. The HERO is played by a gorgeous woman with long flowing hair and perky breasts who is sexy and deadly all at once. She’s always on the side of the Angels.

    This is the world of the fantasy-boy-hero-Afro-Peruvian.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Well, the Gunsmoke days are about over for Marshal Dillon.

    • Tzar says:

      Fogen has seen the Hubris of law enforcement and the judicial system, especially when dealing with AA’s and wanted some of that. Trayvon was and remains fodder for him on many levels. We turned Trayvon into a person imbued with all commensurate rights. He may never get it.

  16. greenwarrior says:

    What happened to PJ R39 from Wednesday? There’s no strike through that PJ, but that PJ doesn’t appear on your list of 29 below.

  17. Sleuth says:


    Excellent post this a.m. If I ain’t careful, I’m going too be real smart due to your informative and well written articles.

    Thanks a bunch! 🙂

    Two questions:

    During the potential juror selection phase, or at any phase, can private citizens submit potential evidence for the case? If so, how is that handled?

    Also, have the information from Trayvon’s cell phone, the inadmissible evidence O’Dirty dropped, been authenticated/verified as true?

    Reason I ask the 2nd question is because the text messages seem odd to me, i. e. using full words as opposed to using the abbreviated forms of words which is so popular among teenagers.

    Ooops! Looks like I asked 3 questions. Please forgive me. 😦

  18. Xena says:

    Happy Father’s Day to all dads.

    • Malisha says:

      I’m not sure I’m really rooting for a Happy Father’s Day for Fogen (who loves his children “even though they haven’t been born yet”) or even to his father, Senior. Perhaps it would be better if Senior spent the day tomorrow wondering what he could have done differently.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Malisha, was that not one of the most amazing remarks of that Hannity interview, second only to “God’s plan” ?

        Also in the running: “No time” to reflect after being in solitary and having lotsa time to reflect.

        Letterman ought to do a Top 10 on Fogen’s dumbest utterances.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Regarding Senior: Condoms?

      • Xena says:

        @Malisha. Now, now. We can’t hold it against Papa Zim that he tried with all his deceptive language to get investigators not to charge GZ but failed. 🙂

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Happy Father’s Day, Tracy Martin!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Wonderful video, Xena!

      • Xena says:

        @yahtc.TY. Tracy Martin deserves it.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes he does, but he doesn’t deserve to not have Trayvon there with him to watch it. I know someone will say he is spiritually, but that is not what I mean. I know Tracy is not spending Father’s Day without Trayvon, but he is and he shouldn’t have to.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. I agree. I must have spent 3-4 hours listening to and watching videos with Tracy, and I hear so much hurt and pain. Practically in all, he spoke about missing Trayvon and talking to him everyday. He is intuitive, knowing from day one that he was being treated like a person expected to shuffle along.

          I don’t know who he and Sybrina can lay eyes on that piece of garbage in court.

    • parrot says:

      That was sad to watch.

      It would have been better had GZ not been born.

      He has done nothing that recommends him.

      He has inflicted pain on so many good people.
      He’s incapable of humbling himself and repenting. His family is the same way.

  19. Sleuth says:

    Another “SYG” case in Miami, Florida being handle by the one and only…….Mr. Crump & Co. The article makes small mention of Trayvon Martin.

    This murder and attempted murder occurred June 2012. Seems like another wanna be cop on the loose.


    I don’t know what this guy could have been thinking at the time. Unlike the Trayvon Martin murder, there were many witnesses and cameras.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Sleuth — I watch South Florida news. I read South Florida newspapers. I listen to South Florida radio. Yet, duh, your link is the first I’ve known about this amazing situation.

      Makes a statement of support for all the Fogen PJs who claim only marginal awareness …

      Thanks for link on this live one. With so much crime down here, it’s easy to tune out and overlook the truly outstanding.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Trained Observer

        Oh, you’re welcome, and thank you for all of your wonderful insights.

        Notice, this guy was arrested within a week, good work by Miami Dade Police Department! and the judge held him without bond/bail.

        There are a few more stories online about this one, one in which stated this security guard shot one of the men 11 times even as the 2 were fleeing and trying to hide from the guard.

        Thing is, one news article said this all happened 15 minutes before the security guard had to start his shift. I think his shift started at 11:00 p.m.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it’s easy enough to miss a few local stories that don’t go national. But to miss a local story that’s gone international is, well, pretty astounding, really. There have been periods in my life when I paid no attention to news at all, so perhaps some of the jurors who claim to not know much have had similar life experiences. It’s still hard to fathom, though, because the eras I’m thinking of had no internet, no social media, no smart phones, and no 24-hours news cycles . . .

  20. Rachael says:

    Oh geez. A lot of similarities. Was rhis recently?

  21. aussie says:

    She’s not an accomplice in his Walter Mitty dreams. She’s one of the people, maybe the most important one, that he has to PROVE TO how great he is. Prove it on his own.

    In Osterman’s book, a chapter by Sondra tells how Shellie was in tears and devastated when she first heard the 911 call (the scream one). They were making out how she feared for GZ because of it. . I think she had a hard time convincing herself that it was GZ screaming.

    The DaytimeTV story outlined above does not fit with the NEN call, and leaves out how they’d get from GZ seeing someone suspicious to that person coming across Shellie. I have seen shows with less consistent plots than that but I’d expect better from you, Malisha.

    • Malisha says:

      Aussie, I never said that Fogen had a GOOD plan or a plan that would make sense. He didn’t HAVE to have a good plan or a plan that would make sense, remember? Remember that the cops liked his story when it was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE? He knew that beforehand. His plan could have easily changed when he said, “Shit, he’s running.” I’m not committed to every detail of this but it is a possibility because Fogen was at the end of his rope (rent not paid; money not available; no credit even from the famiky; Burgess arrested without any help from him; all his fraudulently held money from his lawsuit against a prior employer (for which he stiffed his lawyer) spent; no degree; no prospects; no way to become the little hero he wanted to be). Is he intelligent enough to make a plan that would make sense to any cop who would be investigating it for the TRUTH? NO. Would he make a plan good enough to convince a corrupt racist cop to fake up an arrest to put a feather in a buddy’s cap? Yeah.

      Don’t expect better from me, Aussie. That way you won’t have to be disappointed so often. I’m not here to get your approval.

      • cielo62 says:

        Malisha~ But DAMN, Malisha, you write some great plot lines!


      • Trained Observer says:

        I have never understood why the Fogens couldn’t make rent when he had a job. That’s Number One on anyone’s hit parade, followed by lights, water and food, car payments/insurance, gas, and only then incidentals. Yet this dope had money for ammo to go out shooting regularly with Osterman. And if finances were that tight, why wasn’t the missus out looking for work, taking in laundry or babysitting?

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Fogen was not on salary – just some form of commission. I think his previous paycheck prior to the incident was less than $100. Generally, working on commission is a sales-type job, needing a winning personality. Don’t think Fogen had the necessities for the job.

          He also had power-washing equipment, but that would require a lot of “hustle” to keep jobs coming. With all that rain in Florida. folks may rely on the Almighty to wash down their patios and exteriors.

        • Shari says:

          What did Fogen actually do? Did he have a 9-5? Where did he take the smiling suit and tie picture? I hear he sold insurance but that could mean anything. Maybe he was going door to door cold calling. I know people who have tried, you make an investment and hope to get clients.

          Regarding Shellie I’m pretty sure she had NO marketable skills and Fogen probably felt it was beneath her to do min. wage work. She says she was on track to be a nurse but I don’t believe it. There is no online nursing school. When they started with the donations she went to Sally’s and itunes. I’m sure she sat on her behind watching daytime TV. She should have been working as well. They had no kids or pets. What did she do all day?

          • Xena says:

            @Shari. At GZ’s first bond hearing, ShelLIE testified that she only worked during the first year of their marriage, and that in 2012, they would be married for 5 years. That’s 4 years of unemployment. She had a license in cosmetology that did not expire until October 2012.

            She says she was on track to be a nurse but I don’t believe it.

            LOL!! She and GZ weren’t on the same “facts” when it came to her education.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            shari says

            Regarding Shellie I’m pretty sure she had NO marketable skills

            shellie had at one point a cosmetology license. that is in fact where she and george met — he was a walk-in and she cut his hair. she certainly had opportunity to work, but at the time of the shooting and of course since, her license was expired.

      • Dave says:

        Shellie could have been working off the books, babysitting or cosmetologizing at home. Maybe she had an unlicensed beauty shop set up in a spare bedroom. That could explain why they didn’t want cops sniffing around their home.

      • Malisha says:

        Laundry and baby-sitting are not jobs for Master Fogen’s wife; they are jobs for … well let’s say they’re for “lesser” folk.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha- I’m more inclined to think that they were selling their stolen items on eBay. That’s a better reason for not wanting cops snooping around.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        I suspect Fogen is a controlling semi-narcissist who didn’t particularly want wifey working because she could easily outshine him.

  22. fauxmccoy says:

    @cielo — you’ve got mail

    (and apologies for using this forum to announce)

  23. Dashamimi says:

    Has anyone heard of the case? “Some” similarities……very disgusting!!!!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Geez, what a genius.

    • Rachael says:

      I dont know how my post ended up where it did but very similar, chillingly so.

    • aussie says:

      After which he shot two guys dead… shot them in the BACK…. didn’t get charged for weeks and ended up GETTING OFF on SYG.

      (Everyone must have thought the victims deserved it, as they turned out to be illegals with lengthy criminal records).

      • aussie says:

        My mistake. I just checked again. Grand Jury refused to indict him, in the end. This was back in 2007.

        But geeez, after outright telling the dispatcher he’s going to kill them !!! how much less premeditated can it get?

      • disappointed says:

        How is that self defense if he shot them in the back? As in not facing him? Running away, skipping away, walking away. Maybe the PJ or as I like to call her the racist twit from the other day is on to something. Arm ourselves to save ourselves from “them” people.

      • cielo62 says:

        aussie~ Yep, some stinking asshole named Joe Horn. In Texas, hailed as a hero. Shot men in the BACK, yeah, really courageous. Karma has him as a broke and broken man. Can’t say I’m sorry to hear that.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Those shooting a55holes never get away from karma!

    • Rachael says:

      He got off? You have GOT to be kidding!! OMG what is this world coming to? Like the officer said, breaking in a house, taking some stuff isn’t worth killing someone over. Have we become that materialistic to where electronics and jewelry are worth more than a life? I know people work hard for what they have and want to protect it. I have a big dog with sharp teeth. But I also have insurance and I just can’t imagine ANYTHING in my house worth killing someone over. Now if my grandbabies are here and someone comes in while we’re here, that’s different – and again, I have a big dog but come ON!!! This is SOOO disgusting!

      • cielo62 says:

        Rachael~ even MORE disgusting: the house wasn’t even HIS, but HIS NEIGHBOR’S! There is NO PROVISION in SYG for protecting your neighbor’s shit!! BUT, hey, that’s Texas for ya. Makes me disgusted and embarrassed to live here


        • Shari says:

          Oh, are you all speaking of Joe Horn? This is another guy that Hannity from FOX news championed. This killer was actually at some kind of rally? or maybe Hannity was doing the show live outside. He was on stage declaring how he had to shoot to save his life. This is another man who was NEVER in danger. I hear he’s not doing so well now even though he isn’t in prison. I’ve had property stolen from me, it’s not worth killing over.

          • cielo62 says:

            Shari~ Yep, that’s the murderer. It’s funny, though, how he was hailed as a hero, and people on the comments page of the local rag wanted to donate to his defense fund, and how he was “going to clean up” after it was over… yeah, yeah. Well the consequences of actually KILLING another human being finally sunk in. And legal battles cost MORE than people think. His neighbors weren’t too thrilled with all the controversy and never actually thanked him. From what I’ve read, he’s broke, living with family and trying to forget the entire thing. No, he was never in ANY danger; the guys were running AWAY from him. He even TOLD the 911 operator he was going to kill them and the 911 operator told him numerous times to NOT go outside. I just DO NOT understand how this case was NOT indicted!! AUGH!! Well back then we didn’t have Change.Org. I’m sure we could have mustered at least 1 million signatures to at least get this to trial. KARMA is what he has now. Bitter bitter karma.


  24. Malisha says:

    Idea: What if Shellie went out that evening with Fogen so she and he could apprehend their “criminal” and she could “witness” the truth of whatever story Fogen was going to sell? She and he would get the call that there was a likely suspect. Fogen would call the NEN (make sure they wouldn’t RUSH to the area, to give him enough time to do his thing and get it “witnessed”) and set it up; then head out to corner and apprehend his prey. Three live people would be presented to the police: Fogen, injured but holding the criminal at bay with his gun; Shellie, crying and hysterical saying, “He THREATENED ME!” and the “criminal,” Trayvon Martin as it happens. When the prey told the police, “I didn’t do anything; I was just going home from the 7-11,” who would believe him? There’s Mrs. DecentAmerican in a state of great distress and fear and there’s Mr. DecentAmerican who just saved her from a fate worse than death and there’s this guy claiming, “I wasn’t doing anything.”

    And Tim Smith would be first on the scene. If the “criminal” resisted arrest he could be taken care of, again, with two witnesses saying, “He saved both of our lives!”

    Yeah. That’s a possible. Trayvon Martin would have been arrested on the spot and convicted in due course. No big lawyers involved and nobody believing his story for two minutes.

    Too bad Fogen couldn’t even carry out a BAD PLAN properly… if this is what happened.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha~ Sounds good! Motive, reason, opportunity.. it’s got it all.


    • Trained Observer says:

      Don’t know … yet some variation on this theme does seem possible. More pieces to the puzzle of what the Fogens were cooking up besides dinner are likely to surface, maybe at trial — his or hers.

      For sure, Trayvon — had he lived –would have had his reputation trashed via an arrest on some sort of trumped up charge. Something more serious than was perpetrated by school authorities in Miami.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I see this scenario as possible but not probable. I think Fogen probably had daydreams of catching someone while on NW, but he seems more impulsive than anything, prone to make that snap decision to get out of the truck. It sounds as if Fogen is talking to someone else in his NEN call, yet if Shellie were with him, why does she allow him out of the truck when she wouldn’t allow him to set out after someone in a previous incident? He’s more likely mumbling to himself, especially if he’s high and he sounds like he has a buzz on. Trayvon never mentions seeing two people either, not that a second person in the passenger seat would be easy to see in the dark and the rain.

      • I agree with Two sides to a story. In all honesty if you listen to the other 46 emergency calls, by the time you get to 6 or 8 you would realize that GZ is full of malice and contempt for blacks and was going to kill someone sometime soon. I suspect he was hoping to find a burglar so he COULD shoot him. TM was good enough.

    • Nef05 says:

      @ Malisha –
      Your post got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing 🙂 ). I’ve read two scenarios for Shellie’s “He shot someone else?”

      1. He shot someone on some previous occasion? or,
      2. He was intending to shoot a specific person, and Trayvon was an unintended target of “opportunity” (the someone “else”)?

      I haven’t seen this one, so apologies if it’s been posted previously. Zimmerman and Shellie both have a problem with their words and gestures revealing “inherent knowledge” that neither intended to reveal. So is it possible that…

      3. She already knew (inherent knowledge) that Zimmerman had shot Trayvon, when the call came in – and she was questioning whether he had shot someone “else”, at the same scene.

      Given the timing of the shooting and the phone call notifying her of the shooting, I estimate about 3 minutes since Jon’s fogen picture is timestamped 7:19. We don’t know the timestamp on his picture of Trayvon, whether he took it before or after fogen’s picture.

      So, I not only want to see fogen’s calls, I also want to see Shellie’s. I want to see who, if anyone, called her before Jon did (and told her fogen shot someone) and/or who she called (osterman?) between 7:17pm and app. 7:20pm, before she got the call from Jon.

      What I just took a really long time to say is: I want to see if one of the “witnesses” or even someone who didn’t come forward then, had a closer relationship with the fogens than they’ve let on. Jon may not have been the only one who knew Shellie’s number without having to be told.

      The subpoena for her phone records, combined with stopping the deposition (when she has spousal privilege in regards to fogen) makes me wonder if the question that terminated the deposition had to do with her phone records, and a possible obstruction of justice charge for not telling police about being notified of the shooting by an unknown witness? . Could she have been contacted by one of the “anonymous” witnesses O’Mara wanted to testify behind a screen, who are apparently defense witnesses?

  25. Jun says:

    Okay, I do not know if I am hearing correctly but at 30 seconds on the tape, I hear…

    1) Witness 11 get frantic along with Jeremy getting frantic

    2) I hear Fogen saying “I’m going to fucking kill you” and then “There shall be”

    The Benjamin Crump Page guy heard it too

    • Wait a sec. There is a very clear man’s voice, as if he is literally standing right next to the caller. Is this a third person? In other words, why would she say, “Jeremy, get in here,” if Jeremy was standing right next to her. Anyone else hear this?

      • disappointed says:

        Yes Crane I heard that too.

      • disappointed says:

        I hear it about 37 seconds, at 45 seconds gun shot. 😦 Very sad,very heartbreaking to he

      • disappointed says:

        heartbreaking to hear. Not sure why I forgot to finish that other than distracted from screams.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, but I always assumed it was Jeremy’s voice.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Do we have any record of when SPD is dispatched to the scene? It doesn’t seem they respond to Fogen’s NEN call but instead start the process with the 911 calls. I should probably know because I’ve read all the reports, but it’s been awhile.

        • I don’t know, but one thing that I do know, from my own case is, time stamps from different sources are really problematic. For example, again in my own case, the 911 dispatch record differs from the tape and from other documents. In some cases the difference is several minutes.

          Now, Fred claims that these time issues have all been synchronized in Zimmerman, which is a must. I don’t know the answer to your question, having said that, but maybe others do.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Ah yes, Jeremy.

        On the 911 tape, Jenna’s screaming, “Jeremy, get in here! Get in here!”

        But listen to Jeremy’s later recorded interview with FDLE – supposedly Jeremy was never outside, according to him. Snug as a bug in a rug, describing how they have a screened in porch, blinds drawn, he’s busy rooting around in the kitchen for a knife as a defensive weapon.

        So … just where was Jeremy when Jenna commanded him to come in? Twice! And why is he so demanding of Jenna that she get a cop car out there, right now? “They’re sending,” she responds.

        And did you hear Jeremy saying “He told me to k …. ” (“Keep quiet?”) Did he think that Zimmerman was telling him to keep quiet, when Zimmerman was really telling Trayvon to keep quiet?

        It’s obvious that Jeremy recognized Zimmerman out there. Is Jenna the first person Zimmerman called ? NEED THOSE FOGEN FONE RECCORDS!

        Please listen to Jeremy’s second interview, with FDLE, on Axiom Amnesia. He wants FDLE to think he never say ANYTHING.

        Not so.

      • @PirahnaMom: I just listened (with Monster iBeats earbuds worth a ton from the dumpster, how do you do and thank you) and this recording has always been hard for me to listen to closely because I am so distracted by the heartbreaking gunshot but…somebody…a man…is standing right next to her, not outside, I swear to God that is what I am hearing. So. How many people were there, where were they, what did they see and know, and…dun dun dunnn, the phone records, please. Those things will speak volumes, I have a feeling.

      • Sleuth says:


        Do you have any idea who the male caller was who made the call to 911 who said, “Oh, shitz!”, then hung up the phone rather abruptly?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @CS, I believe there were other people there as well and, I have expressed my thoughts on that here on another thread. I believe Trayvon looked to these people for help and, they did nothing to help him and, IMO this kid’s blood is on their hands, as well as on Fogen’s.

        I also commented about what someone on Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crumps face book page said. this person said that Jon told Fogen not to shoot Trayvon, yet he did so anyway and, after he did it, he asked Jon to help him cover it up.

        Now, if this is true and these people lied and did other things in order to help a murderer out, they should be charged with being an accessory before and after the fact. also, I have been wondering about what kind of evidence does the state have that we know nothing about. do you or anyone else here think that maybe some of Fogen’s DNA was found on what ever made those little boo boos on his head.

        I took a good long look at his head and, there is a definite U shape near one of his minor head wounds. someone there at the scene helped him get those gashes on his head and, then took pictures of him. IMO, Jon, Jeremy and Jenna should all be facing charges along with Fogen. BTW, Osterman’s hands are bloody as well. I believe he was the one who tore out of the complex like a bat out of hell.

        • Agree on Osterman and others. I was floored, for example, that no officer even snapped a photo of Zimmerman’s vehicle that night. Couple of (well, many) problems: 1) to snitch or not to snitch- in some circles, ratting others out can be a death sentence all by itsefl and 2) Zimmerman has no credibility, and others are um, ‘below’ him, for lack of better term. Plus, now is kind of late to…well, better late than never, I guess we learned from Arias, but now is kind of late to say, by the way, Osterman wasn’t just coincidentally at that close-by ATM machine for no reason that night.

          But, I agree, I have always wondered, take for example, did Osterman hustle him away that night, when Trayvon was still a John Doe? I think it was to ‘get the stories’ straight. At least it looks that way. Very very odd. Beyond odd.

      • FactsFirst says:

        I’ve always believed that the block captains were involved… Thats why the HOA went on and settled and Crump didn’t budge on anything less than mill.. Does anyone know who all the block captains were at the time? Anyway, if they were involved like my Mama used to say “It’ll all come out in the wash/court!” Witness are going to be backed into corners and will COME OUT SWINGING, throwing fogen under the bus once they find out how much evidence the prosecution got on their sneaky azzes… This trial is gonna be on some old school MATLOCK type shyt! and when that shyt hit the fan, it’s gonna splatter BIG TIME!

        • I may be old fashioned, but I do not believe in ‘Neighborhood Watch.’ Seriously. For one, thing, what’s the alternative: Neighborhood Not Watch? Nobody Talks Everybody Walks Neighborhood?

          People watch out for each other anyway, in other words. But to give someone who knows how to kill but not how to perform CPR- to give someone like that a perceived privilege to do some extra snooping does not work for me. It can (and did) lead to trouble. I don’t buy, in any way, shape, or form, that this neighborhood was somehow, amazingly riddled with crime, suddenly, when George Zimmerman arrived, and that he amazingly, suddenly stopped a bunch of crime with his snooping about. I am not buying that story.

          We have trained officers to do this job.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’m with you on that opinion. BDLR is waaaay too comfortable with pj’s holding adverse opinions. That can only mean that he’s got some evidence that is simply devastating. We, who have been following the evidence trails, know that there’s a lot of pieces missing that are very likely easily filled. We also know that it’s likely that the SP has enough good evidence to twist some of these witnesses toes, the one’s who have clearly been lying.

          The stain on the garage door frame of Jon Manalo, the Hawaiian, comes at a time when gz could very well have been there knocking, although he says it’s his flashlight, that flashlight seems way to small to have given off such a resonant sound. He’d have to have been hitting it with his cell phone, to get a sound like that, but then you’d hear the “clicks” that contact would make, hard surface to hard surface. The rapping in the NEN tape sounds more like a hand hitting something large and metallic like a door or door frame.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        To me, Neighborhood Watch is just that – everyone living in a neighborhood looking out for odd activity – no captains, no guns, no patrols – just casual observation and calls to authorities with the training to sort it out. Fogen will forever be the classic example of what Neighborhood Watch should NEVER EVER BE.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        There’s also a loud, metallic door slam that almost sounds like a gunshot about 15-20 seconds before the shot – the type that sound that the porch door would make. I think these doors are at the interior of those screened porches at RTL. I don’t think there’s any outer exit, from what I recall (please correct me if I’m wrong – perhaps there are doors at the sides of these that aren’t visible in photos). Jeremy seems to have been watching from inside the porch and his girlfriend is inside the condo calling him back inside, and as he does so, he lets the door slam.

    • disappointed says:

      I hear something, but my hearing is over 50 years old so it’s not great. I have always thought Jeremy saw the gun. What does Jeremy say at 1:35? It sounds like says he warned me….

      • Trained Observer says:

        Jeremy’s testimony will be worth a day off work.

      • BillT says:

        always knew from his reaction to the shot that jeremy KNEW there was no reason on earth to shoot, he clearly sounded shocked, like no way he shot that kid…….he saw far more than he ever told so far.

      • ay2z says:

        What I ‘observe’ as to what Jeremy said, and this is what I hear with a bit of ‘blurred’ word starting with an ‘s’ sound, is still “He warned me itd scare you’, speaking to his girlfriend when he arrived upstairs and ‘got in here in the same room.

        But whatever, if the ‘he warned me… ‘ or ‘he’ said something else ‘to me/Jeremy’…. that means he was spoken to by someone, and if the ‘he’ was the shooter, that was their neighborhood watch person.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ay2z –

          I need to correct my earlier statement this evening. I wrote that Jeremy said to Jenna “He told me to .. ” and that was not correct.

          Of course what he said was “He warned me to … ” I hear a “k” or “hard c” after “warned me to” and my thought is that the sentence would continue with “keep – ” (as in keep quiet. keep my mouth shut, etc.”)

          But how that sentence ends, however, is not as significant as how it starts. Jeremy isn’t saying “Jeez, Jenna, there’s some crazy guy out there that’s got a kid on the ground” or “Good God, Jenna, there’s a guy out there with a gun!” or “What the hell is going on it there????”

          But saying “He warned me … ” implies a level of familiarity – this was not a stranger out there — HE KNEW IT WAS ZIMMERMAN. And that he’d already told Jenna, so he did not have to explain who “he” was.

          They had earlier heard the beginning of this and Jenna is recorded telling FDLE that she heard “What are you doing …” SO IT’S OBVIOUS that Jeremy headed out to see what was going on; dashed back in and told Jenna “IT’S ZIMMERMAN OUT THERE ON SOME KID!” and as Jenna dials 911, Jeremy pops OUT AGAIN to see where this is going (and may even have seen Zimmerman draw his gun) and that’s when he comes back in, urgently telling Jenna (who is on the phone with 911) “Get a car out here!” and Jenna said, “they’re sending,”

          Jenna tells 911 “I don’t want to go out there” and that is BECAUSE SHE KNOWS FROM JEREMY TELLING HER, THAT IT’S ZIMMERMAN OUT THERE – and because she’s on the HOA Board, she knows there have been complaints about him hassling people – WHILE ARMED.

          Heck, if it’s just two guys wrestling, she would have at least popped her head out there – because she’s on the HOA. She’s so terrified of Zimmerman AND HIS GUN that she insists they haul ass upstairs to get out of the line of fire.

          Jeremy has more to say on that tape after the shot. I hope that is recovered by one of our brilliant audio experts.

          Jeremy has MUCH more explaining to do …

      • Jun says:

        Okay, do you at least hear his voice after Jeremy freaks out for the cops to hurry

      • ladystclaire says:

        @T.O, not to forget him not regretting anything that he did that night. this dope kills a child in cold blood and, expects not to be held accountable for his actions.

        This idiot and his defense have tried their best to sully this kid’s character and, some in the media were naive to the point that they will more than happy to oblige Trayvon haters.

        This is in fact a site for those of us who are searching for the truth in this case. It’s down right ignorant for those who support this murdering piece of filth are his equal and, they will never amount to anything.

      • Sandeep says:

        Is Jeremy not an accessory to murder if he witnessed the killing ?

      • ladystclaire says:

        How could these people just stand by and allow this to happen to this kid, and then lie about it for him? when 911 asked Jenna if she knew who was screaming for help and why, SHE FLAT OUT LIED AND SAID, “I DON’T KNOW WHY.” this bitch has some explaining of her own to do.

        This just makes me sick to know that these racist bigots know this *VILLAGE IDIOT* is guilty of cold blooded murder of a child, and yet they want to see him walk free. they aren’t shit and neither is his family.

        I wonder if at least one of them may have had an attack of guilt, for not trying to stop this murderer by helping Trayvon and, not wanting to live with this murder on their minds for the rest of their lives, do you guys think they turned states evidence on Fogen, and this is part of the evidence which we know nothing about?

    • Rachael says:

      At 50 I hear Jeremy “Oh my god.” Still listening

    • Sleuth says:


      Glad to see you’re feeling better. 🙂

      I asked that same question last year to the group over at NLME/ /bcclst(?). Wonderful group of people over there. However, those who responded suggested I had the call confused with another call.

      I was aware that statements had been taken from Johnathan, Jon, and Jeremy, and wanted know if anyone found a statement for the 4th man.

      I’m sure I heard another male voice in the household, or at least near the phone, other than Jeremy’s.

      Perhaps I was mistaken.

    • Jun says:

      Right after Jeremy freaks out to the cops to hurry up

      W11 says “they are sending them”

      at that moment you will hear Fogen say

      “I’m going to fucking kill you”

      and then he says “there shall be”

      Man, this case is so clear cut murder

      It’s just too bad there are really evil people in this world trying to get this bastard Fogen to skate so bad, when they know he’s guilty

      Hopefully there’s a hell, because Satan has a place there for Omara and Fogen

      • Tzar says:

        Thank you my dear
        I had always thought that sounded like “keep still” or “keep him still”
        but because of what you suggested, I paid more attention immediately after w11 ends her statement, “they are sending them”
        and now I hear it.


        If indeed those are the words
        Trayvon was trapped and Zimmerman was in complete control
        there is no tremulousness nor staccato nor stuttering in the utterance, meaning he is stable and has a very self-assured position when he says this.

        I don’t hear the “there shall be” utterance, I only hear Trayvon say “help me” one more time

      • Tzar says:

        He was so angry at this kid…
        it’s all there plain as day

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      The “these shall be” is at 0 seconds of the tape, before the dispatcher speaks.
      Here is a link to the lay out of the corner units W11 and Jeremy were living in. http://tinyurl.com/ky2qc7s

      They said the door to the porch was open, and their sofa was right next to the porch. Wat you hear at around 30 sec is the opening of a drawer. It is possible Jeremy was looking for the knife he mentioned. You can see the stairs going upstairs right next to the living room area.
      I think Jeremy was heading back or just got back when the shot was fired, and w11 was moving towards the stairs and then up the stairs, while she was telling Jeremy to get down, then get in and then get up here.

      • Jun says:

        Nice catch

        I just listened closely and it is there too

        I also hear it a lil after the 30 second mark after w11 and Jeremy speaks

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        The very beginning of the tape was where Reich said it occurred. I don’t think I would’ve picked it up otherwise. I don’t hear it at 30 sec.

      • Tzar says:

        amsterdam1234 says:
        June 16, 2013 at 6:05 am

        The very beginning of the tape was where Reich said it occurred. I don’t think I would’ve picked it up otherwise.

        I don’t hear it at all

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I isolated that part of the tape. I can hear the words, but to me it just doesn’t sound as if it is coming from outside.

        • Xena says:

          @amsterdam1234. I have the Sony Soundforge Audio Studio software that Reich said he used. It came with the Sony turntable I purchased to transfer vinyl to computer, take out the noise on the old albums, and burn to CD.

          I’ve tinkered around with the EQ on that 911 call, but need help. If you know how I can set the EQ to bring up the background, please let me know. It’s a 10 channel EQ.

        • I hear it clearly and it does sound like it’s coming from near the phone.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I am sorry Xena, I don’t have any knowledge about audio enhancement or audio software. I just putter around if I want to do something. Whonoze is the goto person for audio related questions.

        Let me know if you like the software.

        • Xena says:

          @amsterdam1234. I love the software for converting LP’s and 45’s to disc. It gets the scratches out. Working with the EQ for music, and working with it for voice is what presents me with the problem.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I can hear what Reich hears in cleaned up recordings, though much more vaguely than he does. I can’t make words out at all in the original recordings.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ Fred

        It sounds more like tv, or maybe even a recorded message on the telephone line.
        I am going to rely on the audio expert for now. W11 may have been very close to GZ when she made that phone call. If she was standing in the screened in porch when the call connected, GZ could’ve been just feet away from where she was standing.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Are those cleaned up recordings available on the net?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        It is fun being able to convert old media. I love that kind of stuff. I’d go over to Whonoze’s blog and drop a line there.

        • Xena says:


          I’d go over to Whonoze’s blog and drop a line there.

          I highly respect Whonoze, but stopped posting on his blog because Unitron’s picking at everything and questions intended to aggravate are, IMO, too distracting and time consuming.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I missed that distinction. It does make sense. They were moving around. She may have been trying to peek outside while dialing 911, and then move in the direction of the kitchen. I think that is a kitchen drawer I hear around the 30 sec. I think she headed upstairs after the shot was fired. Jeremy was at some distance from her, when she told him to come up. But later on in the call, he sounded close to the phone again.

        Reich’s description of the tone of voice, did make me wonder if that was the tone w18 described as dominating, authoritative and DD, so angry and real low.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        Just ignore him. He doesn’t show up much, he appears to feel more comfortabel at Diwataman’s blog. Or drop a line at one of whonoze’s comments on this blog.
        Or you can try my method, just blindly or deaf in this case, try out all the options. Worst part about this method, that if you get it to work, you don’t know how you did it.

        • Xena says:


          Just ignore him. He doesn’t show up much, he appears to feel more comfortabel at Diwataman’s blog.

          Is that where he’s hanging out these days? LOL!

          Or you can try my method, just blindly or deaf in this case, try out all the options. Worst part about this method, that if you get it to work, you don’t know how you did it.

          Hey! That sounds like me. LOL! It happened with me when Office switched to Office 7. I knew what the program was suppose to do because I’ve worked with Word since it was first introduced — tinkered around in Word 7 until I got it to do what I wanted, then couldn’t remember what I did for the next time. I HATE that program.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Or google your question. I have found that to be a very effective way. Usually I end up on some kind of forum, where another innocent noob has had the courage to ask my question, and I can get the answer without having to suffer the humiliation of asking ” stupid ” questions in geek land.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        Hey! That sounds like me. LOL! It happened with me when Office switched to Office 7. I knew what the program was suppose to do because I’ve worked with Word since it was first introduced — tinkered around in Word 7 until I got it to do what I wanted, then couldn’t remember what I did for the next time. I HATE that program.

        God, I know what you mean. I have very little patience to learn office programs to begin with. So when I finally figured out where stuff was, they introduced the stupid ribbon. I am still trying to find things.
        I’ve been using Open Office at times. It seems more intuitive, at least I can get basic work done, without finding myself screaming ad cursing at my laptop.

        • Xena says:


          I’ve been using Open Office at times. It seems more intuitive, at least I can get basic work done, without finding myself screaming ad cursing at my laptop.

          My dinosaur XP desktop with Windows 2003 is my mainstay for documents. Microsoft will no longer support it either later this year or next year with Service Pack updates.

    • Tzar says:

      what do you hear at 00:39-00:42 seconds?
      I hear 3 voices in that time span
      1. a howl
      2. a stern deeper voice (I won’t say what I heard it say)
      3. the operator

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        That is the only time, I can hear the other voice speak. I am sure it is GZ’s voice. I can’t wait to find out wat Reich hears.

        • Tzar says:

          I think jun might be right
          at first I heard keep still or keep him still
          but listening to the “air” right after w11 stops talking I can hear it.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I can’t tell. I got this one because of Reich’s description of where to find it.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Keep him still = these shall be?

        • Tzar says:

          no, I now believe that what I thought was keep him still is actually, “I’m going to fucking kill” you or something very similar.

          in either case
          I still think there was a third person helping restrain Trayvon (white shirt?)

      • Jun says:

        There was not a 3rd person

        W18 would have saw it

        • Tzar says:

          is that the teacher who got emotional on the phone? if you mean her
          I think the darkness and distance could have made it difficult for her

      • Jun says:

        I hear Fogen’s creepy whispery pedo predator voice, 100%

        I believe Fogen says “I’m going to fucking kill you” as Trayvon, a more younger voice, Trayvon says “help” and then “stop” and then Fogen kills him

        Considering the screams, Fogen terrorized this kid and had the upper hand the whole time

        Even according to w6’s reverted testimony, he stated that both parties were parallel to the sidewalk, on the grass (which makes the head slamming concrete issue a huge fucking lie, because for that to occur, the body positions would have to be close to perpendicular to the sidewalk and on the sidewalk somehow), and that both parties had their legs straight out, so the mount claims are a load of crap

        • Tzar says:

          Considering the screams, Fogen terrorized this kid and had the upper hand the whole time

          I have been saying this since my first listen
          that is the most heartbreaking part of it
          and the reason I think this guy deserves M1

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I think it sounds like Taaffe.

  26. Colorado: How are our readers from that area managing, with the wildfire? Does anyone have updates? We hope everyone is safe, and are very sorry to hear this news. What area is affected?

    • cielo62 says:

      Crane~ MountainManPat checked in. He says it’s far away from him and @ 45% contained. Unfortunately arsonists have started an additional 6 fires. He’s fine and keeping alert.


    • ladystclaire says:

      Praying that MMP will continue to be SAFE. we are living among some pretty sick folks in this country. from killing kids, to setting intentionally setting fires.

      • There is some sort of link between increased incidence of mental illnesses and firesetting. Not sure what it is exactly, but did find this conclusion of a PubMed study:

        “Results:Firesetters were significantly more likely to have been registered with psychiatric services (37%) compared with other offenders (29.3%) and community controls (8.7%). The firesetters were also more likely to have utilised a diverse range of public mental health services. Firesetters attracted psychiatric diagnoses more often than community controls and other offenders, particularly affective, substance use, and personality disorders.Conclusions:This study confirms that there is a link between firesetting and psychopathology, suggesting that there is a role for the psychiatric screening of known firesetters, and a need to consider psychopathology in formulating the risk for further firesetting.”


        In other words, it’s not a real common thing. Hopefully, the psychiatric community can figure out some screening or some ways of prevention, because of the seriousness.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Let me give you a blunt layman’s overview of fire-setters:

          If you are a real loser in life, and you know you’re a real loser, and you know your efforts – whatever they are – hardly make a damned bit of difference in the world, and so you consider yourself TOTALLY POWERLESS, and nobody pays any attention, and you just wish you had some way to make a BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE that people are really going to pay lots & lots of ATTENTION TO YOU, and you want to feel you are exerting TREMENDOUS POWER, what with causing all those trucks, firefighters, helicopters, aerial tanker to be working night and day at great risk to life and limb …

          TO FEEL IMPORTANT, you set wildfires.

          That big glow in the sky, and all that uproar and all that destruction says, “Hey, I DID THAT! I AM SO POWERFUL – LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! And I’m getting back at all those people who never paid any attention to me.”

          For some, it’s a sexual stimulant. For others, it reassures them that finally, in that moment, THEY ARE IMPORTANT.

          The agony of people and animals burning to death means nothing to them.

          It is a power grab, and they are scum.

          • Tragic. Just reading/glancing at Google news, people have lost their homes, and are saying they had no warning. Wildfires seem to be almost epidemic. I have a nephew in Vail who is not affected, but he has done work on the beetle problem there. I am not a fire expert, but I do recall him saying something about the amount of ‘fuel,’ ie: dry material in Colorado. My heart goes out to those people.


            “The agony of people and animals burning to death means nothing to them.”

            is unimaginable to me. The problem has garnered the attention of the researchers, at least. I don’t have any idea how they could get some prevention going on, but I hope they do, somehow. I remember hearing in a Forensics course, I believe, that firestarting, in combination with a couple of other disorders/behaviors early on is, or could be, a sign of some pretty grave issues. Fred may know more than what I am recalling, or maybe there is a psychologist reading.

            It’s kinda like, how the hell do you leave a pressure cooker bomb next to a child and walk away? How is it that we are breathing the same air as these folks?

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane- fire starting and animal abuse at an early age (puberty and before) are huge red flags of serious psychopathology. Unfortunately it rarely gets the intervention it deserves.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Okay, yes, now I remember it was the animal abuse. PubMed now has literature linking firestarting to, as you say, serious psychopathology, so I hope there will be more efforts to get at some prevention.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Crane-Station… My daughter is about 5 miles away… Several of my Granddaughters high school friends lost their houses. Earlier about 55% contained (thank you to rain), about 483 houses destroyed.


      • Oh my God. I am just now learning that homes were destroyed, thank you so much for checking in, and we sincerely send wishes that your daughter stays SAFE!

        More rain is in order. It’s dangerous work, I don’t know how they are fighting this one, but just awful news.

        Thanks again for your comment.

        • lady2soothe says:

          One of my Granddaughters friends was leaving as soon as it started. He said they walked out the door and it was like a scene right out of Bambi, animals running every which way across the yard… I lived in the mandatory evacuation area in the early 80’s, gorgeous homes with lots of acreage, small ranch’s. I understand homeowners were painting their names on their horses and opening the gates because they didn’t have time to trailer them out… Many of the outer ranch’s were gathering and penning up the animals. Someone is taking donations for feed, I’ll try and find out who and post it, if that’s okay with you and the Professor.

          • Oh, yes absolutely PLEASE do. Also, what is the appropriate Twitter hashtag that people are using to re-locate their horses and pets and seek donation aid? Do you know? I can assure you that we will spread the word far and wide on our end.

            I have only seen one home burn in my whole life, and it was one of the most terrifying things I have ever seen, people just stood helpless.

          • lady2soothe says:

            Crane-Station and all those wishing to help with animal feed and care of the Black Forest Colorado Fire:

            – Monetary donations are needed to support the animals being housed at the Norris-Penrose Events Center. Donations – which will go toward electricity, water and hay – can be sent to Pikes Peak or Bust Rodeo Foundation, c/o Rob Alexander, Stockmens Bank, 601 N. Nevada Ave., 80903. The foundation is a nonprofit.

            General Manager: Johnny Walker
            719-635-1101 ext. 1

            Facilities Manager: Jay Turner

            Barn Manager: Jennifer Hiben

            – The Elbert County Fairgrounds, 95 Ute Ave., Kiowa, (303) 621-3152, is accepting large animals.

            – Avondale Pet Care Center, 17140 Jones Road, Peyton, 719-683-4617, and neighboring acreages are taking all types of animals, including reptiles, birds, goats and horses.

            – Bear Creek Veterinary Care, 960 Pico Point, 719-685-1177, is taking dogs less than 30 pounds, as well as cats. Call to check availability. “There is no charge, and we will keep their pets as long as the evacuation lasts,”

            – The Humane Society of the Pikes Peak Region, 610 Abbot Lane, 719-473-1741, is accepting cats, dogs and other “small critters” from the evacuated area only.

            – Those who’ve lost pets and other animals due to the Black Forest fire are advised to call the Humane Society of the Pikes Peak Region’s lost-and-found line at 719-473-1741, ext. 8763. More than 100 animals brought to the humane society have been reunited with their owners. The group is still caring for nearly 800 animals at its Abbot Lane location, the Palmer Ridge High School shelter and the El Paso County Fairgrounds. Staff and volunteers are working to match reports of lost animals with stray and stranded animals in the burn areas. Those with lost animals can view animals the humane society has found at http://www.hsppr.org/lost.

            – At the current rate of distribution, Care and Share only has enough food to last two days, the nonprofit said via a Friday afternoon press release. Donations are accepted at Care and Share Food Bank facilities Saturday from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.: 2605 Preamble Point, Colorado Springs, 719-528-1247; and 100 Greenhorn Drive, Pueblo, 719-296-6995. The food drive has been extended to 11 a.m.- 5 p.m. Sunday. Items needed include canned and boxed meals and snack items. To make a monetary donation: careandshare.org (indicate that the donation is for “fire response”) or text “donate” to 41010 to make a $10 donation, which will be added to your phone bill. Volunteers can register at


          • cielo62 says:

            lady2soothe~ THANK YOU! I always have a soft spot for our 4 footed children. I’ll be sending a donation soon. >^..^<


          • lady2soothe says:

            lol… You’re most welcome.

          • lady2soothe says:

            Now I understand your 4 footed children remark even more 🙂

            “coulda been my kid, if I had decided to ever have any.”

            I’m so sorry to hear about your student. So brave are these little children with disease’s.

          • lady2soothe says:

            I don’t use Twitter so I’m not sure about the hashtags. I’ll check with my niece, she’s on the Board of Directors with Memorial Hospital and School District 20 or 49 (not sure which).

            My daughter, son, niece, sister, brother and friends are all fine, most everyone lives south of the fire… Thank you for your kind thoughts.

            #COfire — Catchall for Colorado wildfire information

            #TreasureFire — The Treasure fire is near Leadville (This is closer to MMP)

            LIVE UPDATES: Evacuation zones http://gazette.com/black-forest-fire-evacuation-map/article/1502207

            Destroyed homes: http://bit.ly/14wdoOR

            [Moderator: I removed your home address]


          • Your description is eerily akin to that of Hell. Very sorry to hear this terrible story.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lady2soothe- please.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • lady2soothe says:

            cielo62… I posted phone numbers and links on Crane-Stations reply.

            Thank you, I know any and all donations are welcome.

        • lady2soothe says:

          85% contained • 2 deaths • More than 600 animals rescued • Acres burned: 14,280 • Homes lost: 509 • Homes with partial damage: 28 • Cost: $7M

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Sent $10.00 with the text Donation method…. I know it’s not much (college kid here) wish I could do more 😦

        Praying for your daughter and her friends and the many who are still in danger, scared and helpless….

        • lady2soothe says:

          tinytruthseeker… Thank you for your well wishes, I will definitely pass your message on to my family and friends and I’ll ask them to so the same… I too am dealing with heavy financial obligations, but as is said “every penny counts” and your $10 is 1,000 pennies!!!

      • fauxmccoy says:


        so sorry to hear of your family’s loss 😦

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ fauxmccoy… Ahhh thank you for your concern but my family didn’t lose anything, they were far away from the fire (5 miles was the closest). They could see the flames, they shot so high in the sky, both my sister and daughter sent photo’s. I would paste them but don’t know how. The Waldo Fire from last year was scaried for me to sit through than this one…. The actual loss was to several of my 17 1/2 yr old granddaughters friends who lost their homes and the resident of the Forest itself, so many animals scattered all over the country side. So very sad for all involved. Crane-Station posted the earlier the containment is at 65% and it’s been raining so hopefully soon it’ll be extinguished.

  27. lady2soothe says:

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, *NOT* sure if anyone else has post this yet… I need to check my spelling before I hit send

  28. lady2soothe says:

    Don’t sure if anyone else has post this yet

    The Trayvon Martin truth squad: a Web phenomenon


    • cielo62 says:

      lady2soothe~ Thanks! Put in a plug for the prof.


    • Rachael says:

      thats a pretty old article.

    • Malisha says:

      I have lost all respect for Robles. I informed her and proved that her initial stories, widely quoted more than a thousand times, claiming that RTL was a high crime area and that there had been “one other shooting” in the neighborhood BEFORE Trayvon Martin was killed, were FALSE and MISLEADING. She pretended to be very busy so as not to be able to pay attention to this issue until some date certain and then the date certain passed and she notified me that she had left the newspaper and thus there woud be no evaluation of the truth or falsity of her story. She’s just a negligent or stupid liar.

      The RTL area became a high crime neighborhood AFTER Fogen’s murder and before that murder, it was a LOW crime neighborhood.

      • Jun says:

        If you have the evidence to back it up, you should write up an article and send it to NBC

      • looneydoone says:

        Maybe Amy Goodman at Democracy Now ! would be the investigative journalist with an interest in the documentation you obtained through FOIA.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Malisha, if no longer with the Herald, how would Robles go about pursuing this without access to the paper’s morgue and/or with media standing to check it out?

        If taking the time to notify you of her departure from the paper and that there would be no evaluation of her story … that’s a courtesy to you that should not be dissed. You don’t know whether she tried, what’s going on with editors, or circumstances of her departure (quite possibly more of the newsroom bloodletting going on coast to coast.)

        For that matter, there’s no certainty that the “high crime” info appearing under her byline was developed or filed personally by her.

        Again, if she took the time to respond to you, just because we don’t like the message hardly makes her either “negligent” or a “stupid liar.”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Also, that’s not to suggest the NYT doesn’t have more clout than the Herald. But it’s a clean slate now.

      • Malisha says:

        TO, you’re right to be skeptical but I covered the bases and even got someone she KNOWS and who has known HER to e-mail to her and I sent her all the information she needed. I would post all the e-mails back and forth but that would be doxing and so forth so I won’t. I WILL ask you to believe me that (a) she learned from me that there was proof positive that she had printed information that was FLAT OUT WRONG in March 2012; and (b) she was at the Herald at the time that I contacted her and for weeks afterwards, while she sweetly sent me e-mails telling me she was going to look into it; and (c) only told me “sorry kiss off” AFTER she had gathered all my information and either left the paper or lied about it. I do not back off my position. I did not “diss” her; she deserves not a milligram more respect than I gave her.

      • whonoze says:

        Robles is OK. I talked to her at length when she interviewed me for her article, in which I wound up be quoted confusingly out of context. But that’s par for the course. Reporters operate under a lot of constraints that regular folks don’t understand. Robles is pretty smart, and while retaining some professional skepticism, she clearly thinks herself that GZ is a mendacious sack of shit. Unlike our dear friend Rene Stutzman, she asked some tough questions and broke a couple stories that exposed problems in the GZ worldview.

    • ay2z says:

      from the article:

      Now Zimmerman’s defense attorney said he has two interns whose sole task is to keep track of what’s on the blogs.

      • Xena says:


        Now Zimmerman’s defense attorney said he has two interns whose sole task is to keep track of what’s on the blogs.

        He only needs a part-time intern to keep up with the few Zimmerman wasp nest blogs.

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ ay2z… Didn’t realize until Rachel pointed it out, the article was written about 10 months ago (I usually check dates but somehow missed this one) … If MO’M had 2 interns last Aug. wonder how many he’s added in the meantime?????

      • pat deadder says:

        I don’t understand why pj’s are told they must not talk about the case etc.but omara can still go on tv and blab to his hearts content.Shouldn’t there be a gag order automatically now.Can he continue to make comments after the trial starts.I’m baffled.I luv you one and all.I’m sure my IQ is not much higher than fogen’s but I’m not so dense to believe his bullshit stories.

  29. Jun says:

    I think mainly, we got to worry about Fogen Gang tricks for jury tampering

    They’ve already attempted witness intimidation

  30. To the stalker calling yourself “Real Law Professor” with the fake email address and bogus comment: Thanks for swinging by and congratulations for being the umpteenth scrillion bigot to join the rest of the banned in the spam filter. You’ll likely be in Purgatory for 40 billion years or so. I mean, it’s not forever, but it’s a really really long time, LOL!

  31. PiranhaMom says:

    Interesting stats:

    20 of the 29 PJ’s are female.

    9 of the 29 PJ’s are Black, Mixed-Race or Hispanic.

    In the first 10, 8 out of 10 are female, 2 out of 10 are Black.

    Often juries consist of lots of old-timers but only 2 of the 29 are judged to be in their 60’s to 70’s.

    Statistically, this is looking good for the prosecution.

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • Girlp says:


    • That’s my impression, too.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Professor Fred —

        Out of the 29 PJ’s so far, there are only 3 white males: in the order of selection, they are the 4th, the 12th and the 29th.

        Bummmmmer for Fogen!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Unrelated to this case, I’ve been told in past years that compliance to receiving a summons in this state is exceedingly low. Don’t know how Florida compares to others in the lower 49. Could be women (forevrer trying to please) are showing up, while more males (not so inclined) are willing to blow off the responsibility or opportunity. … especially for a case like this, with a lengthy trial, sequestration and murder on the table. .

    • Girlp says:

      I am still a little worried about the jurors but the makeup looks good at this point…I have lived in the south all my life and there are still many bitter over the changes that came from the 50″s through the 80″s, there are many who feel they should be privalaged above all who do not look like them.

    • Jun says:

      Karma is Karma

      Fogen likes to play judge jury and executioner to blacks, mexicans, and women

      Now, they are likely to judge his fate now

    • pat deadder says:

      to ask silly questions Can the prosecution show the videos?So we know fogen family are racists his mother married a white man for status and wanted her kids to marry white so forgen sr married her to feel superior?Why is jr. not in the court room.I’m thinking Shelley and fogen don’t want him there after all he did throw Shelly under the bus he did say Only Shelley lied in court or something to that affect.The skeptisim about pjs not knowing a lot about the case was shocking to me so at work I mentioned I was watching jury selection in this case and all 10 people were shocked the trial is just starting.They only heard the first news reports and nen call and were relieved that he finally got arrested .

  32. disappointed says:

    Fred or anyone here that can answer a question, please help me.
    I thought to claim self defense you had to meet force with force and if you believe your life to be in danger of death you could use deadly force. Is that correct? What I do not understand if Fogen has four “kitten” scratches(2 back of head 2 on snout). No visible swelling on bashed head. No bruises on or around eyes. No stitches. No broken bones. No broken skull. Why did the police not arrest him after they wiped off his boo boos? What am I missing with Florida Law? I have been trying to understand the self defense/SYG but I am confused I guess.

    • You are right to ask why they did not arrest him. The answer is a combination of racism and corruption.

      • Malisha says:

        That combination being so common in the SPD, they did it almost without thinking. The thought it would work because it had probably worked so many times before.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        There is also a certain laziness that emanated from this racism and corruption. In this case, and both aspects seemed to emanate more from above than in SPD in the cursory examination by the prosecutor that barely fulfilled the legal obligation of SYG. There was no digging deeper into the facts and circumstances of the fatal encounter even though Chris Serino and Doris Singleton seemed to feel at least a little uneasy about Fogen’s story.

      • disappointed says:

        Thanks all! I realize the police needed to investigate but figured once they cleaned up his 4 kitten scratches they would be able to see he did not fear his life. Well imo he did not fear his life.

    • towerflower says:

      Florida has had a couple of local SYG defenses since this has happened. One close to me involved a neighbor shooting a neighbor over his own barking dogs where 3 shots hit the fleeing man in the back—they were arguing at the property lines. He also claimed SYG and he wasn’t arrested until about 2 weeks afterwards. He lost on the SYG hearing and was convicted on 2nd degree murder.

      We also had another one in which the husband accidentally shoot his wife–thinking the rifle was unloaded and he was showing her his new site. They didn’t arrest him right away either but eventually did on a manslaughter charge….he was the cell mate of the top story.

      It seems typical, at least to me, that here in Florida they wait until they know more and then arrest them, although with TM they seemed to wash their hands of it. Most arrests come within a couple of weeks from what I have seen.

      • Tzar says:

        ahh Florida, giving me reasons daily to never retire there

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It isn’t only Florida – recall the case of the young mentally impaired Hispanic man in Tucson, AZ shot by a black man outside a fast food place when the young man swung his dog’s leash at the black guy’s car after almost being hit in the driveway and was shot in return. That investigation took weeks before it yielded an arrest (it turned out that the shooter had a nasty little attitude and went around armed most of the time, much like Fogen).

        Slow progress in investigation is fairly typical for SYG in most states, it would seem. I’m not certain what would have happened had the public not responded to Trayvon Martin’s shooting. Would the investigation have gone forward or not? It appears to me that most self-defense cases take longer to resolve than the public is comfortable with, but that there was truly a cover-up going on between SPD and the prosecutors’ office in Seminole County.

    • Tzar says:

      Zimmerman invoked the reckless eyeballin’ edict of 1951, Bill Lee was duty bound to comply, there was simply nothing he could do.

    • Xena says:

      @disappointed. Considering the chronological order of GZ’s story, when he shot Trayvon, he was in no physical danger. His head was no longer on the concrete and in fact, GZ says wiggling to the concrete is what exposed his gun. GZ admitted to having Trayvon’s armed pinned. While having Trayvon’s arm pinned, GZ did not say that Trayvon was hurting him in any manner.

      GZ said that his left arm was extended, but he doesn’t say why.

      • BillT says:

        those words alone are enough to convict him, he had wrist control and BOTH hands free………yet he still pulled the trigger.

        • Xena says:

          @BillT. For sure. No reasonable person would believe that Trayvon would not beg for his life once seeing the gun, but GZ shot him anyway. Isn’t that what we hear on the 911 call — “I’m begging you” and “Nooooo”?

          GZ shall be found guilty of second degree murder and sentenced to prison for life. So it is spoken. So shall it be.

      • disappointed says:

        I think what confuses me is the Police or Prosecutor letting people “say” they were in fear of death and just accepting it. Common sense tells me if you are in a fight for your “life” the evidence better add up within 48 hours not 45 days. JMO because I am not law enforcement but shouldn’t common sense trump at some point? The Court is to decide the truth but some said it is more of a chess match and I agree.
        I truly believe in our Constitution. With that said when our Founding Fathers wrote it, I believe guns were for hunting and protecting YOUR property. Automatic weapons for hunting? Chasing kids down on the streets? We have guns, my husband conceal carries but this is beyond the pale. Am I nuts or just getting to old?

      • parrot says:

        Thanks for posting this. I had not seen it. You picked the best music for such sobering revelations.

    • Bigotry. There, I said it. Really. If the victim had been GZ and the shooter had been TM, would there have been an arrest? Of course. This country may have outlawed slavery (or at least moved free labor to the prisons) but racism is alive and well. The thing that gets me is, how open and above board people are with it. Like that racist potential juror woman. Just not even any attempt to keep it on the downlow. And Old Man Zimmerman: The NBA? Unbelievable. Surprised he didn’t claim that Usain Bolt was the real killer…

        • cielo62 says:



          • Apparently, GZ’s father’s book randomly name various organizations, AAs and other people of color as being part of some vast conspiracy-type thing. I could not believe he named the NBA, so I was a bit surprised he didn’t simply start naming all people of color as being the ‘true racists,’ including the amazing Usain Bolt.

            The link to the story is on Think Progress:


            “The NAACP. “[S]imply promotes racism and hatred for their own, primarily finical, interests” and “without prejudice and racial divide, the NAACP would simply cease to exist.”
            NAACP President Benjamin Jealous. “[W]hat I would expect of a racist.”
            Trayvon Martin’s funeral director. A “racial activist and former head of the local NAACP.”
            Benjamin Crump, Natialie Jackson and Darrly Parks, attorneys for Travyon Martin’s family. “The scheme team.”
            The National Basketball Players Association.
            Black Chamber of Commerce.
            National Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers.
            National Black United Fund.
            United Negro College Fund.”

            IMO, the guy has lost his marbles, and is not helping the defense.

      • cielo62 says:

        Crane~ I’ve noticed that today’s haters take great pleasure in misconstruing “tolerance.” They seem to believe that racism and homophobia are just “opinions” and hence should be “tolerated”. I see that ESPECIALLY within the religious posters who want to be able to bash homosexuality and all gays while still maintaining that they have a “right” to their “opinions.” That lady probably felt very self righteous in her “beliefs” and probably angry that her opinions are not “respected” in our new age of tolerance. NO ONE should tolerate the denigration of another human being. THAT IS NOT BEING TOLERANT. But good luck getting that inside those tinyempty cages they call brains.


      • Girlp says:

        The FBI statment as well…what an idiot those are two different departments within the FBI…I guess the FBI only has 2 officers left one for Trayvon the other for the Boston bombing…smh

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The overt racism that is now explained away by calling everyone else racist is unbelievably barking mad. I can’t even find the words to describe how insane and unreal it is . . .

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I didn’t even know this new line of thinking existed until this case came up and I started reading at the old GZLC Facebook and the Treestump and other places. I am dumbfounded and gobsmacked.

        Did these people start coming out from under their rocks when Obama was elected? Did the movement of the planets call them out for cleansing? Perhaps a little firehosing is in order . . . : /

        • I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and never saw the likes of this sort of thing, until we came to Kentucky, and then, where I really saw it in a concentrated form, was in jail and prison. There was actually a written document of stated inmate rights in one place, that said an inmate has a right to segregation. The hate went in the forward and in the reverse, and it seemed to be not at all a new phenomenon- it was as if the hate had been in place for many generations, such that it was senseless and it would take a team of psychologists and historians to sort out. I never understood any of it, and I still don’t; there is sort of an equivalent derogatory slur for white-on-white hatred as well: the term ‘white trash.’

          I attempted to write about it in some essays, let’s see if I can dig one up:


        • The Uranus-Pluto square has been messing with everyone, but those people seem uniquely unable to handle the subterranean fury for independence.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides.

          Did these people start coming out from under their rocks when Obama was elected?

          Pretty much. Previously, White Supremacists lived in their own deception that no person of color would achieve anything or if they could, a White could be given credit. (Elimination of Black History Month)

          The argument about “natural born citizen” is a sovereign citizen argument. They see a difference between “natural born” and “native born” and that bootstraps from their asinine argument that 13th and 14th Amendment citizens are not “natural born.” (Elimination of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act)

          Their agenda to get their country back is one that puts “Negroes” back “in their place.” That includes elimination of Civil Rights and Voting Acts and establishment of their brand of “common law” in which SYG sets the root. (Using fear and intimidation to control)

      • Woow! says:

        @Crane-Station – I’m glad papa Z released his e-book. It shows the world that the Zimmerman family is racist and that Fogen learned that behavior from his parents. It explains why his brother went on his racist tirades.

        • Now I am wondering if BDLR will subpoena that book.

        • Those people are their own worst enemies. The simply cannot stop shoving their feet down their throats again and again and yet . . . again.

          Comical, stupid, and pathetic when viewed at a distance with a detached perspective, but ultimately dangerous when viewed up close as Trayvon discovered because they are driven by inconceivable, irrational and unchecked hatred.

          The two Roberts, Gladys and George are ugly beyond imagining and I am not talking about their physical appearances.

          They need to return to their hiding places under slimy rocks.

          We will shower and move on.

      • looneydoone says:

        Jr’s racist twit rants
        mamacita’s use of the slur “Mandingo” during the Univision debut
        papi’s literary masterpiece produced with “contributions” from the outhousers released during jury selection

        The entire family is certifiable
        I doubt they are Tea Party Repubs…me thinks they’re sovereign citizens. Any one know who the 11 Florida Sheriff’s are that signed Richard Mack’s (CSPOA) pledge to “oppose and disallow” any new federal gun control legislation ? Or how many (and who) are members of the ultra right “Oath Keepers” group who’s members are LE and military ??

        There’s a big write up on these groups in the SPLC Intelligence Report; Summer 2013/issue 150

      • Malisha says:

        Suddenly came to me — I’ll post it below — Shellie along on the ride to be a witness when Fogen arrested his mark by using his gun. Didn’t work out that way, oh boo, but then again, plans change.,..

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, with all of this racism VERY evident, can you believe that the Supreme Court has heard the arguments already about eliminating Section 5 of the 1965 Voting Rights Act and this month is scheduled to give its ruling!

        It’s time to really pray!

        • Can you explain this a bit further? It doesn’t sound good, but tell me what it means (like I am five!) …are they limiting/ tinkering with voting rights for certain groups?

      • Rachael says:

        Too bad that book came out just after jury selection when they are not allowed to read or watch news so unless they cheat, they won’t know about it. I mean I think it is obvious the kind of people they are, but if anyone wasn’t sure, they would be now.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree with you, Rachael.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, as far as your response to Two Sides, I wrote this last November:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        This case before the Supreme Court is based on the challenge from Shelby County, AL.

        Shelby County says the pre-clearance requirement is unconstitutional.

        Shelby wants it eliminated even though Congress in 2007 had reauthorized the 1965 Voting Rights Act (including Section 5) for
        25 years.

      • disappointed says:

        We live in a very diverse area. I have neighbors of all walks. We have block parties, we watch out for one another. We watch the neighbors kids to the bus. Always planned on buying home in Florida to retire, not now. Hubby said NO. He does not want to live in a State that has that much hatred for people who has skin a little different than ours. We all bleed red.
        Racism has no place in America. I would rather have 100 Trayvon’s living next door to me than 1 racist.

        • Thank you, I have been watching Hollingsworth v Perry a bit, and read some of the amicus briefs early on. IMO, we need to keep US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg on life support, if possible, just my .02!

      • Malisha says:

        “Tolerance”! As if being different is some kind of an offense that a “tolerant” person will “tolerate”! Says more than it realizes it means!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks, Xena. I guess these folks don’t see the concept that everyone is natural-born on Earth kinda deal? Like, um, God Bless the Universe?

        Holy smokes, that natural born crap is frightening. Sounds like the current astrological configurations are stirring this stuff up even more. Sunshine indeed, Mr. Sundance.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ Fred

        The Uranus-Pluto square has been messing with everyone, but those people seem uniquely unable to handle the subterranean fury for independence.

        Echos of the conjunction in the 60’s perhaps? I usually think of the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in association with the sexual revolution, but now that you mentioned it, the mid-sixties was of course also the height of the Civil Rights movement.

      • Jun says:

        Pardon my french but

        What the fuck at blaming the NBA

        I have heard many crazy right wing racist wackos but this is the first time I heard them blame the NBA

      • Jun says:

        I think the Fogen Sr. outburst (I think Robbie The Racist wrote the book to be honest), is simply a childish act of

        “No, You are…”

        “No You are”

        • I don’t know what the situation is, for real. I have 4 siblings that I love dearly, and I can see trying to defend someone who matters to me, but…it would come from a place of love, somehow, someway, and not from a place of hatred, spewing, and inappropriate, ill-timed e-books.

          Do they not see how this is coming off? Desperate, for one thing. But just, I don’t even know what to say… Utterly bonkers. That man was a judge? (There, I said it.)

    • Girlp says:

      Good description of his injuries disappointed, maybe a cat jumped out of the bushes and scratched GZ’s head and face ; one thing we do know is that Trayvon did not lay a hand on GZ

      • aussie says:

        The CAT is innocent, too.

        He ran into the little tree near the T and that made him extra mad. Trayvon’s fault, if he’d not had to chase him ‘cos he ran away, he’d not have run into the tree.

        • Xena says:

          @aussie. When I looked at the photos taken at the cop shop, it is obvious that the scratches had scalps on them. Then a close-up of the head boo-boo’s look like they have scalped but the scalps were picked at. The middle of the boo-boo’s look raw, surrounded by healing skin.

          Hopefully, the State has evidence through text messages or medical records that GZ was in a fight days before 2/26/12. Notice that Bernie and Guy show no concern about O’Mara’s representation of “bloody” photos.

      • Girlp says:

        @Aussie, I bet that cat was stuck to the back of his head like duct tape.

      • cielo62 says:

        GirlP~ I’ve often said I’ve gotten worse injuries just medicating my cat! I like your description: “Kitten scratches.” Truly small and pathetic.


      • Girlp says:

        @cielo62 LOL! Knuckle bandages for a knuckle head…it fits.

      • disappointed says:

        Thanks! Honestly to me that is what his four scratches remind me of. He feared for his life??? Good thing he is a man, he would die giving birth for sure. Surprised he had not started collecting Social Security Disability for a paper cut.

      • disappointed says:

        Aussie LOL the cat is innocent too. Look at me blaming innocent kittens for 1 deranged Afro-Peruvian.

  33. LLMPapa says:

    The apples didn’t fall far….

  34. Deborah Moore says:

    Rachel, that’s so funny. And, very interesting about the part of social networks future impact on the court system.
    Thank you.

    • My son turned me on to these laugh-out-loud robotic videos. He and I have promised each other to co-write one. Later this month, we will be attending my nephew’s son’s wedding in MA, and we will be on the same plane, thinking stuff up. (Kyle is way funnier than me!)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Maybe there should be a “so you got out of your truck and shot an unarmed teen” video . . . : /

      • disappointed says:

        Nerf bat to a knife fight, priceless. Those Nerf bats at deceiving though. I walked into my youngest son’s bedroom while he was working on his swings. I had a welt for 2 days and a bruise across my stomach for a week.

      • Well, the closest I’ve seen is, “I wasn’t doing nothing and the cops came and arrested me.”

        ie: Nothing is ever GZ’s fault. Ever.

      • Two sides to a story says:


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ooops – meant to say Fogen and this little guy have a lot in common with their loooonggg stories.

    • parrot says:

      These are hilarious! Where do you get them???

      • OMG, the vast majority come from my hilarious son/family. You wanna laugh till you cry, watch Steve, the Lawnmower guy, who gets pulled over for a DUI, on a lawnmower. Two come to mind:

        “My wife said that if I don’t get her another beer, she’s gonna stab me in the face.”

        • parrot says:

          My wife’s gonna kick your ass! I know my rights!
          Man, hats off to your son and Steve.

          • “It is the last one. Yeah. And it’s yours too!”

            “The vacuum’s been sittin out here for two weeks. Why don’t you do something productive?”


      • The other one is Steve the Lawnmower Guy domestic arrest.

        The funniest robotic video I think I have seen might be Don’t Go to Law School- Find Out Why (caution- graphic language, I’m just the messenger)

        an then there’s this:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh my gosh, what great videos, Crane.

        My husband asked why I was laughing so much!

      • disappointed says:

        OMG! ROFLMAO. You all are to much.

      • ay2z says:

        Good Neighbours episode, last part.

        Tom and Barbara Good have gone back to nature, to support themselves from their urban home back yard garden. They schemed to find a way to earn enough gas money for Mark 1, their creative form of transportation in the making in lieu of auto.

        They talked neighbours into taking domestic duties while the regular staff are away on holiday.

        It does use garden driveables, and drinking. But no police.

  35. @cielo62
    (hope I got that right)

    I left 2 photos at previous thread, but here is another:

    dumpster colored pencil sets 003

    can 2nd graders use this?

    • cielo62 says:

      Crane~ YES WE CAN! YOWZA! I can see some really cool science projects being planned!


      • bettykath says:

        a good place to dumpster dive is any college campus as students are clearing out. The expensive private schools are the best bet. Students buy all sorts of stuff and toss it at the end of the term. An artist friend of mine has gotten all kinds of stuff, including a new-in-box easel.

      • Five-star comment. Hell, you don’t even have to get out of your vehicle in a rich university town! LOL, seriously. You can just drive up and down the street, “You getting rid of that?” ” Mind if I take that off your hands?” …and you can literally furnish a place, in, like 20 minutes. I swear to God. Or else, if you have a few dollars in your pocket, feature the likes of the Goodwill, near UCLA (in Westwood, ie Beverly Hills…)

        I’ll put our Paducah KY Goodwill right up there with the best of the best though. Exceptional management, really cool and fun. We treat ourselves, once a month.

        • cielo62 says:

          Hmmm. time to scope out Rice University, not too far from here….


          • Wow, great school! But it’s true, just figure out when the last days of the term are. I have found stuff in U-towns that these kids throw away- boxed, new with tags Coldwater Creek entire outfits, just amazing, furniture, you name it. Some places actually have sort of formalized curbside giveaways.

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane~ Have you written any of those “Freegan” books I’ve read about? Sounds like YOU have wealth of information!


          • I have not yet put together a dumpster diving book, but I plan to. I have enough essays to fill a book, beginning with my first ever Firedoglake post, that was about dumpster diving after the holidays. I don’t do it that much anymore, except for food. I have given away a huge amount of stuff, and have never sold my finds. Everything that we wear and everything in our home that we use, comes from the trash. It’s unreal what we throw away in this country.


          • cielo62 says:

            Crane~ Count me as book sale.

          • LOL, we even made a YouTube early on. I can look for the link, that was back when we were hunting for metal scraps to recycle, and we had a truck. We quit scrapping and switched to a motorcycle a year and a half or so ago. If you’re interested, I’ll find it, but, I am sure the thing is well-trolled by now. They be hating on us hard.

            I will say this: It is not an easy hobby for folks living in larger cities, because of the gated trash, and the large, attached compactors. I tried Seattle for a brief time, then gave up, but there is a U of W PhD candidate doing his dissertation on dumpster diving. Bless his heart, it’s a tough go in a city.

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane~ WOW! I’ve never done dumpster diving, in part because of the stigma, in large part because my spouse has NO adventure in her  soul to try it. I’d love to go with others and learn how to do it successfully. The closest I come is garage sales, which I adore. I will definitely read more about this. Thanks! 🙂

          • Fred never gets into a dumpster, but he goes with me, nearly always. It’s really interesting, if you want to see the truth in society, look in the trash, underneath the surface. I have a saved envelope of hand written letters from the Great Depression Era, for example. As our WWII generation dies, it is too painful for folks to sort, so they often discard everything. I have a little amazing library, with books from the late 1800s through WWII. I should have been an archaeologist, I missed the calling.

  36. fauxmccoy says:

    nice refresher course — my father explained this to me many years ago (dual degrees in law and accounting, but only ever practiced as a CPA). he participated and testified at many mafia trials on behalf of the irs in the late 50s-mid 60s where he had uncovered their double sets of books at various vegas casinos.

  37. Malisha says:

    Wait a minute, I just thought of something I had not thought of before — why no tape recording from Officer Tim Smith’s squad car from the trip to the station house on 2/26/2012? When you transport a suspect in custody you have that recorder ON. Where is it? What was said?

    • Trained Observer says:

      @Malisha — Oooooh, hot diggity! What are odds tape got lost, or recorder wasn’t turned on … or, voila, maybe yet another Fogen version of what happened is lurking as a time bomb?

      If Smith shut down the recorder, isn’t that grounds for a reprimand, if not a firing? This wasn’t a shoplifter or a burglar (to our knowledge) he was transporting. This was the shooter who had just killed an unarmed teenager.

      Or maybe Sanford cop car’s equipment just happened to be “not in working order,” sort of like the cameras weren’t running at R@TL?

      • Trained Observer says:

        And please refresh or correct me: Weren’t Officer Smith and Fogen previously acquainted, perhaps palsy-walsy?

        (By now, of course, Sanford cops barely remember Fogen, if at all, just like most PJs pretty much aren’t aware for the case.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Interesting. I didn’t know SPD had to record transport.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m not sure squad car HAS TO RECORD transport but where there is (a) homicide and (b) person transporting suspect DOES KNOW HIM (yes, Smith knew Fogen before the event and had been involved with the Sherman Ware case), one would think he would have to maintain that tape to keep the record clean.

      • Rachael says:

        But of course they talked about nothing you know, they said so. smh

    • whonoze says:

      Matt Gutman had the recording from Smith’s cruiser, bu he deleted it.


  38. I seriously recommend that each of you read these two SCOTUS cases because they may play a huge role in the outcome of this case.

    See Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79 (1986) and Miller-El v. Dretke, 545 U.S. 231 (2005).

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I have a question. The above 2 cases concern the civil rights at trial of defendants, one charged with burglary (Batson) and the other, Miller-El, with capital murder, where pj’s of similar racial background to defendant’s were excluded by prosecutor. How do these cases apply to Zimmerman, who listed himself as White as of 2/26/12, and presumably is trying to prevent pj’s of non-White background from being selected? In other words, he too wants to be judged by a jury on which his race is represented.

      • The legal rule is that people cannot be systematically excluded from jury service because of their race. This rule has been extended to include gender and religion. This rule applies in any case regardless of the defendant’s race.

        This is not a right to have someone on the jury who is a member of the same race as the defendant. If there is a PJ who is a member of the same racial minority as the defendant, that person cannot be excluded with a peremptory challenge, unless there is a reason other than race to support the challenge.

      • Dave says:

        If the defendant is half white European and half Afro-Peruvian Hispanic, does that mean that the prosecution must give a reason to dismiss anyone other than an Asian?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Thank you for explaining– as a non-lawyer I sometimes think I can figure it out, but don’t know the rules.

    • Girlp says:

      So, my understanding race cannot be used to dismiss a pj period? Am I right?

  39. Judy75201 says:


  40. disappointed says:

    Just wondering if Fred has kept a list of the PJ that we have gone through already with notes on whether “we” like them? I know we are still not ready to pick the jury but another few days of questioning and we will not remember their opinion from juniors. At least I won’t remember.
    Thank you for explaining how this all works. I kind of want to yell BINGO. 🙂

  41. aussie says:

    I am surprised they’re doing the questions in this order.

    If being in, or knowing someone in, law enforcement is automatic removal, why not ask that question first? ditto about knowing witnesses? (I assume someone who knows a witness, at least an immediate one, would have heard this from the witness in the first days or weeks). Ditto about having been a crime victim.

    Surely these are questions they could put on the questionnaire, and stop wasting time interviewing non-starters?

    And Sybrina would not have had to listen to the nasty horrid woman with the ex-cop husband.

    The wonderful black teacher who’d be such a great foreman is 22nd; what’s the chances of him making it on even as an alternate? Sixteen people have to be eliminated to get him on the jury proper.

    • bettykath says:

      I agree that the teacher would be great to have on the jury. It may be an advantage to have him so far down the list. I think the defense would use a challenge to get rid of such an intelligent and independent thinker. Maybe by the time they get to him the defense will be out of challenges.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Good point … let the defense piss away their nixes on more strident PJs, and let this man quietly be seated.

    • Individual voir dire is being used to voir dire on the issue of pretrial publicity so that the answers do not poison the rest of the PJs.

      Judge Nelson started with the pretrial publicity issue to get it out of the way because it is likely to be the biggest disqualifier.

      Voir dire can then proceed with the rest of the group together on other subjects.

      • aussie says:

        Aren’t the others all waiting in the same room, for their turn to be individual? is anything/anyone stopping them from talking in there? or is it like a school exam, total silence expected?

        Relation to LE or victim of crime could be done on questionnaires, no need for public admissions in front of other people. This type of disqualifier could be dealt with in 10 minutes each, not 2 hours. They could even be asked this when they get the summons, and get the whole starting pool down to about 300 to begin with.

        Very very inefficient way to do it.

        And still a worry, how will No. 22 get on the jury? a lot of people in front of him have had to have nasty crimes happen to them…….

        • Experience has taught us that most people do not realize how their perceptions are affected by their beliefs. They think they are objectively evaluating evidence when they are judging it relative to the belief they hold.

          Mere answers on a form are slightly more valuable than useless and fail to provide a reasonable basis to exercise a peremptory challenge.

          We actually have to question them to obtain a glimpse of how they think.

          Knowing someone in law enforcement or even being involved in it is not an automatic disqualifier. Depends on the issues and whether they can hold the prosecution to its burden of proof. When I put cops on trial for sloppy or dishonest work, I wanted honest cops on the jury and won several cases that way.

          There are very few people who can be automatically disqualified.

          #28 can advance into the top 6, via peremptory and cause challenges.

          (Note that I updated him to #28 after adjusting my numbers. Yes, it’s still possible for him to be on the jury, although more likely as an alternate)

      • Soulcatcher says:

        A couple of years ago I was chosen for jury duty, I knew the notice was coming as it did every 2 years. It was a murder trial, a 16 year old hispanic boy, gang related, but not a dealth penalty case. When they called our name, as a group we then went in and sat down. The judge came in and gave a speach about what the trial was about. One by one we were call to take a seat in the jury box. I was one of the alternates. We were advised not to talk to anyone, other PJ’s, not even spouses. We were advised not to watch the news, and not to look up information on the internet. They then told us to return the next day at 8 am. There was a woman taking notes that sat behind me before I was called.

        The next morning I noticed the same woman taking notes. The judge came in and asked each person if there was any reason we felt we could not serve. Several gave reasons, but only one was dismissed because of religous reasons. The attorneys then questioned each of us, had we been a victim of a violent crime, and about our jobs. At the time I was a collector, and explained my duties. They then started dismissing the PJ’s. All the black people were dismissed, and then they dismissed me. I was alittle shocked. I was told the woman taking notes was most likely a jury consultant, and it was her job to know everything about each PJ. Is that true? Do they know everything, would she know I was married to a black man?

        • They probably would not have known that unless you volunteered it.

          Jury consultants work with the juror information and jury questionnaire forms, plus any knowledge they are able to obtain regarding community demographics, neighborhoods, etc. Now they check social media, but they do not have the time or financial resources to investigate people. They can only get what is available on line. In some cases, that can be a lot of information. Others, not so much.

    • The defense will move Heaven and Earth to get rid of him, if he advances far enough to get into the box.

      But they cannot use a peremptory to excuse him, unless they have a genuine reason other than race.

      See Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79 (1986) and Miller-El v. Dretke, 545 U.S. 231 (2005).

      And he is not likely to give them a basis for a cause challenge.

      Hard to tell right now, but I think there is a reasonable possibility that he will advance far enough to make it into the box.

    • Dave says:

      Being related to a law enforcement officer is not necessarily a disqualifier. I was on a jury once where the foreperson was a sheriff’s deputy. Another juror was married to a judge and a third had served prison time for B&E. Thankfully it was an easy acquital..

    • parrot says:

      aussie, being the victim of a crime or knowing someone in law enforcement doesn’t automatically disqualify someone from serving.
      I’ve seen some of these jurors impaneled because they said that they would not give more weight to LE testimony as opposed to testimony from any other witness, and they would be able to impartially judge the case based on the evidence.
      In federal court at least, court security officers (CSO) assist and accompany the jurors. It’s not impossible for the PJs to talk about the case, but they are admonished not to and the officers are present, so it’s not as easy as one would think. I’ve seen some jurors report it when one of their own does not follow the judge’s instructions.

      • towerflower says:

        I have gotten jury summons quite a few times but only made it to a verbal questioning once—a slip and fall civil case. Every other one they either never called me in or there was a question sheet and I was excused after I filled it out. The only reason I can think of is that my sister is a cop and my son’s Godmother and my best friend is a deputy sheriff.

        • cielo62 says:

          towerflower~ I’ve never gotten past verbal questioning. And I don’t have ANY legal connections. But gee! It seems that wanting EVIDENCE other than a cop’s word was just TOO MUCH to ask for! I explained quite pleasantly that I would want to see something; a breathilizer or a blood test or a video. (DUI case). This was in the old days where people could refuse to blow. As much as I hate DUI drivers, i was not willing to destroy a person’s life without some kind of evidence. Imagine that.


        • parrot says:

          I assume that the others were criminal cases, correct, Tower?

      • Ms.X says:

        I think the cute man (30’s, short cropped hair, navy jacket, caucasian) in the front row is security personnel.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Aussie, I’ve also wondered a lot about this issue. Seems like a lot of these people should have been dismissed after the jury questionaire.

  42. Shari says:


  43. I am pretty certain that I have correct listing of the PJs and the order in which they have survived.

    Please correct me, if I have made an error.

    I want to make certain it’s correct.

    Meanwhile, we have the recorded interviews to refresh our recollections, which is a real plus, especially when I explain in tomorrow’s post what you should be looking for.

  44. Trained Observer says:

    Can’t help but think the State has an adavntage here. 🙂 More people back at the office to analyze and research the prospects, and keep track of the running order. True, I don’t know what kind of staff the defense jury consultant has, but he, himself appears iffy.

    West can’t even remember his own questions these days, much less track order of witnesses or who is who.

    In the gut feeling/take a chance department, I suspect BDLR will have it all over MOM.

    Plus, the State will have facts on its side for turning any closet hostile jurors.

    • Malisha says:

      Actually, closet hostile jurors thinking they can hide bigotry are likely to be found out by subtleties because they do not specialize in critical thinking.

      Do you know why guinea pigs became so stupid? Because in their natural habitat they had no natural enemies. Folks who disregard other people’s valid opinions and who keep their friendships and conversations limited to shoring up their own foolish belligerencies do not even REALIZE the things they are saying and the impklications of them. Remember Senior telling the FDLE guys that Fogen wasn’t racist because he could have been persuaded to profile Asians if the circumstances were different? They don’t even get it when they stuff their stinking feet into their big mouths!

      • Trained Observer says:

        I’m still rolling in the Aisles of Target over Fogen Senior stating that Boston Marathon tragedy wouldn’t have happened if FBI hadn’t been wasting resources wrongfully focusing on Fogen his perfectly fine and justifiable little one-bullet killing.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “Folks who disregard other people’s valid opinions and who keep their friendships and conversations limited to shoring up their own foolish belligerencies do not even REALIZE the things they are saying and the impklications of them.”

        Hear, hear. And how they suffer and cause others great suffering! : /

      • dianetrotter says:

        From personal experience I know how easily and quickly these people reveal themselves. They think their opinions are fact.

      • Woow! says:

        Someone need to go back and review every case concerning with a minority that Papa Z ruled on. This could not have been objective in any way.

      • Woow! says:

        Good grief I will need to start being careful when posting. I apologize for the crazy posts. It is quite a task from a cell.

      • Tee says:

        @ trained observer my mouth is hanging wide open this family is truly crazy. When I say crazy I mean it, they are all short a few eggs out of a dozen. Smdh!

      • disappointed says:

        Woow~ cell phone? what kind of cell? 😉

    • Jun says:

      You think so?

      I have not watched the jury selection

    • Ms.X says:

      Sorry, I disagree. One terrible nightmare is to have a public defender (the state). If the other party has a private attorney, you’re outgunned & screwed. I have actually met a public defender whose grammer was so bad that I was shocked. I have always been under the impression that lawyers were good speakers and writers. I think they are also over burdened with case load. I pray for divine intervention. I pray for justice since Omara keeps trying to turn it into a kangaroo court. Our court system has little to do with justice. If it did, we would get to see a reenactment of how gz claims he he was able to grab his gun with someone sitting on top of him pinning his arms with their knees. When he reenacts it on video, he is standing up and his elbow goes behind his body. This would not be possible while laying on your back. We would be able to ask a Dr. why the head pounding didn’t knock out his contact lenses, or at least one. Surely the pounding of the face & head would have resulted in the loss of at least one contact lense with the combination of movements & eye watering. The jury would also be allowed to have a reenactment at the sight with a timer & no media presence. Do we want to know the truth or do we want to know whose attorney is most glib & clever? The criminal justice system kind of disgusts me.

      That said, I’m new to posting here (not new to reading/lurking). I prefer to be anonymous because I’m a public school (art) teacher & our superintendant has personally asked us to avoid cyber controversy at all costs. I know teachers who have been fired for controversial stuff online. I might want to drop an expletive occasionally, but my employeer would not approve as it is not becoming of a public school educator. Its not that I want to be a troll, but I don’t want to get fired.

      I am very far left politically & wish I could live in a socialist country. I think we should love & protect the planet & all God’s creatures. I believe The Universal wants the world to be colorful instead of color blind. I love to travel & learn about (eperience!) different cultures. I’ve been to 20 something countries. I live in TX & think European Spanish is weird. I believe in equal rights/pay & marriage equality, pro choice. I’m usually for the under dog. I have a son & 14 yo daughter, with my son being 4 months younger than Trayvon. I’m opinionated. I have been dodging jury duty most of my life because I don’t want to be asked to make a judgement that will severely impact a person’s life with information deliberately withheld. I am a Trayvon supporter. Justice for Trayvon.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Ms. X,

        It took a lot of courage for you to write. Your school administration seems unaware of the First Amendment – but the educational establishment often considers it has powers akin to the military.

        Please consider Jury Duty. You are needed there. There are all level of trials – murder is not the most frequent. We are a nation of laws – and the citizenry must support and participate in the process.

        What would the chances of JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON be, if good people like you were not on the jury?

        Who needs justice by bozos?

        Please stay with us on this site and contribute again. Bless you and your family – and all your students. You have an important calling. Please consider adding jury service to it. You are needed.

      • cielo62 says:

        Ms. X- WELCOME! I’m also a school teacher. It hasn’t stopped me from being outspoken here. Nothing controversial about following a law blog, after all. ;). I’m sure Bernie more than outguns MOM and West. The evidence us a veritable tsunami of truth that will wash GZ into prison. Don’t be afraid to chime in every now and then.


      • A very warm welcome to you posting, very sorry to be late, but I unfortunately agree with you on the criminal ‘justice’ system. I think it’s broken. Plus, my very own backstabbing public defender is such a miserable excuse for a human being I don’t even know where to start on the bar bitch most days. Would I start with the fact that he has four jurors personal cell phone/home numbers in the case file, or do I refer to the ex parte, post trial secret agreed damaging order, that was based on ‘trial testimony’ that was written five months before trial?

        Lord, don’t get me started. I could do this all day.

  45. Trained Observer says:

    Extraordinary! Insightful! Am printing out for my cheat sheet! Thank you, thank you, thank you, professor. Quite the game of chess it will be next week or the week thereafter.

    • Yes, indeed.

      How well this game is played is very likely to determine who wins and who loses or whether we have a hung jury.

      • Malisha says:

        Fortunately, the prosecution team has much more experience doing this and figuring out the exquisite detail than the defense team. Domestic Relations cases HAVE no juries and West was criminal defense but needed very few juries because PDs work mostly with plea deals. I like the way this DEMANDS both inbtelligence and perspicacity. I think it’s beyond the defense team’s pay grade.

      • Rachael says:

        But they do have the jury consultant fwiw

      • BillT says:

        you are correct and it saddens me greatly…i thought for a long time our courts BOTH sides of the cases sought the FACTS…….i thought the lawyers on both sides were obligated to present only truth……but clearly like a movie i saw many years ago it is nothing more than lets make a deal, some game show having nothing to do with a quest for factual info.

        • The object is to win and the theory is that justice will prevail if two adversaries battle it out in a courtroom playing by a set of rules.

          The problem is that the adversaries are rarely equally matched and sometimes they cheat.

          • cielo62 says:

            masonblue~ too bad that mediation isn’t the standard procedure for settling disputes. A win-win solution SHOULD be the goal.


      • @Professor

        Thank you for this. I posted the article at our blog so our readers can be educated on the process and to link back here for more.

        This process is scary to me.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Good Morning , Fred.
        In my maturing years, I am taking the time I have on my hands to meditate, think and wonder on concepts like morality vs. ethics, and, law vs. Love.
        And so, you’re comment made me think that the way things are going, we each have more and more opportunities to make a choice to stand up and take responsibility for our words and our actions or not.
        I’m so glad I met you before and have, finally, made my way to your site.

      • Ditto, so happy to see you here! Really fun and nice group of folks discussing a tragic case, unfortunately. Great to see your fonts.

      • Rachael says:

        Cheat? How do they cheat? I mean I’m sure they do, I can’t imagine they don’t, I just would like to know what cheating would be in this aspect.

        • O’Mara is cheating by trying his case in the court of public opinion with false facts and inadmissible evidence.

          In other cases prosecutors and police occasionally hide exculpatory evidence.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        With all your experience…. I am wondering… who do you give the advantage to in this game? Bernie and Co. OR The defense with their hired consultant?

        • cielo62 says:

          tinytruthseeker~ You can only do so much when picking a jury. The evidence is so clear, that even marginally racist people cannot ignore it. I doubt having a hot shot consultant is going to help MOM much.


        • Advantage to Bernie because he has the evidence to prove guilt.

          Jury selection seems to be going his way too.

          • tinytruthseeker says:

            Thank you for the reply!
            I had fingers crossed you would give the edge to Bernie!
            *small happy dance*

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Many thanks here too.

      Although the game may be uneven, I have faith in the unseen karmic and spiritual energies that move through this case and the players in it. There is always more to human endeavors than ever meets the eye.

      • BillT says:

        i agree and that is exactly what bothers me, the facts of this case that meet the eye are that it was cold blooded murder beyond any shadow of doubt……

    • dianetrotter says:

      Looking at race, there is a possibility that there will be no Hispanics on the jury. How does this process take into account “jury of my peers” or whatever the phrase is.

      • Basically, means another citizen who resides in the county where the offense is alleged to have occurred.

        Not a relevant concern in this case.

      • fauxmccoy says:


        if there are no hispanics on the jury panel, it is irrelevant to the phrase ‘jury of peers’. the phrase simply refers to normal, everyday citizens.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        the american concept of ‘jury of peers’ was also established to differentiate from what was perceived at the time as unfair jury practices held by the british (apologies to my brit friends here, i do realize your system has changed drastically since the 18th century)

        a very enlightening history of juries by the american bar assn.

      • Woow! says:

        MOM wants an all white jury.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Well, if “MOM wants an all white jury” he’s sure to be in a funk all weekend! By law, he can’t get that – if blacks show up for jury duty.

          And they did!.

  46. Rachael says:

    Uno – What an interesting process!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: