LLMPapa’s video: Cardboard and Bullshit Part IV

Here’s the vid all of you have been patiently waiting for.

LLMPapa’s Cardboard and Bullshit, Part IV.

270 Responses to LLMPapa’s video: Cardboard and Bullshit Part IV

  1. Mark Hellner says:

    IMO, this last video solves the crime. Assume that GZ shot TV with both in the standing position and TV pulling away. That would mean there is a significant force being applied to GZ via his pulling on the hoodie. Upon the kill shot, TV would no longer resist the force and there is a high likelihood that GZ stumbled and fell backwards with the top of his head hitting the edge of the sidewalk. It is like a rope in a tug of war suddenly snapping. It is also possible that his gun hit him in the nose as he fell back. This scenario would explain:

    The general downward flow of blood seen in both the scalp and nose wounds sans any smearing expected in the ground struggle made up by GZ.

    It also explains the lack of any wounds and GZ blood on TV.

    It also explains the wetness on the back of GZ.

    I had the misfortune of having a man die of coronary failure while speaking to me. He gasped and, in the blink of an eye, pitched forward with his hand folded under his body.

    I stumbled on this site by accident during a search for lack of defensive wounds on GZ. Completely unexpected for anyone fending off a beat down. Hell, I used to get a score of them on my arms just doing “non-contact” sparing.

    Anyhow, I did not know about the hole discrepancy till I found this site.

    Bravo, to all of you.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Re: “The general downward flow of blood seen in both the scalp and nose wounds sans any smearing expected in the ground struggle made up by GZ.”

      Mark, we need to account for the forward flow of GZ’s blood from the back of the scalp diagonally across his cheeks into the front of his Vandyke beard.

      Other than that, totally plausible. Frankly, the standing shot position was and is my favorite theory, because it’s most understandable to the jury (as contrasted to Zimmerman mounted on Trayvon, leaning forward and positioning the muzzle perfectly).

      Because of the delay in FDLE receiving that back-of-the-head photo of Zimmerman’s blood (from superficial scalp wounds) from witness “Jon,” and the lack of “chain of control” over it as “evidence” the jury may NEVER be shown the bloody scalp wound photo with the diagonal blood flow,

      In such case, the standing shot scenario should be presented.

      The scalp wounds, though minor, are indicative of a dragging motion over some 1/4″ wide protuberance, not from an immediate contact like hitting the edge of the concrete,

      Nevertheless, the edge of the concrete at the shooting location was highlighted by FDLE photog (see photos on Axiom Amnesia). My guess was that there was a Rainbird sprinkler head buried there (the standard location).

      Did they spray for blood analysis? No report on that.

      No fiber analysis released either.

      Stll watching … and waiting.

      Glad you joined in!

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Mark, please see “What Does Zimmerman’s Blood Tell Us?”
      September 23, 2012 in the Leatherman archives – see sidebar column to the upper right, for the archives.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Blushed, I don’t know how I missed the March 11 edition of blackbutterfly7, but this was my first read. So comprehensive! So warmly presented, with consideration and without fireworks and histrionics. Thanks for providing the link for Mark Hellner, so he could gain more info. I am sure he and others must have appreciated it. I sure did!

  2. Bill Taylor says:

    we moved a doghouse outside our fence for a stray to stay in during the recent cold spell, and during that move i hit my leg on the corner of the tin roof, no need for stitches but the blood ran all the way to my foot, a tiny scratch on my leg bled far more than fogens pictures and the HEAD has very many blood vessels real close to the surface of the skin!

    • willisnewton says:

      If i were a LE officer in the “way back times” I’d have looked at that guy’s head and assumed he was drunk and fell down before the fight even took place, rather than believe his BS about how he was hit in one place and ended up 40 feet south, and then a teenager managed to bounce his head like a soccer ball, all while the adult failed to do anything in return.

      For all we know, GZ ran into a tree in the dark while he was hunting the teen, rushing around here and there during the missing minutes and this made him angry.

  3. Bill Taylor says:

    happy to oblige….fogen claims his head was smashed repeatedly onto concrete that means the bleeding should be VERY profuse and ongoing during the smashing, that would SMEAR the blood on his head there would be no nice little trickles DOWN, there should be a smeared bloody mess with blood covering the whole back of his head.

    • And in the process it would leave blood all over the hands and arms along with the clothing of the person smashing your head in the ground.

    • willisnewton says:

      I fail to follow this argument. What exactly would this “pool” of blood look like?

      How many times defines “repeatedly?”

      I’m as curious as the next guy – for all I know Fogen self-imposed these injuries with car keys or a rock he tossed away. But I DO see some blood gathered in several spots on the back of his head in the ABC/W13 iphone photo, whereas back at the cop shop it’s sorta clear there are only two real sources of significant injury.

      It’s the circular one, the one that’s on the left side of the back of his head that seems to have ran in multiple directions.

      I can’t speak to the severity of these injuries (they seems somewhat minor to my untrained eye) but again, the evidence seems subjective to me.

      Were the defendant credible in other areas (which he is decidedly not) I might be inclined to believe him based on the photos.

      Something caused SOME injuries to the back of his head that bled, and the blood ran down and around and was smeared somewhat here and there.

      The part about this that I find less then credible is the idea of HOW the teen supposedly banged his head against a sidewalk. The guy’s got no hair to grab. Did the youth hold his ears? His neck in a strangle hold? Fogen doesn’t really say. Perhaps the most efficient way would be to cradle the man’s head with one hand under the back of the neck, and then raise it up, while then quickly removing it and using the other hand on the forehead to push it down. But this is hardly the movements of a typical fight, nor what a person would do to an assailant that was unconscious and unresisting.

      It’s odd that Fogen NEVER describes what he did with his own hands the entire time, save draw his gun and shoot.

      Then of course there is the 40-plus foot “stumble” that led up to this. If Fogen was so “out of it” that this initial blow dazed him so badly that he “woke up” with his head being smashed “repeatedly” then that must have been an incredible blow – yet it failed to stop his leg muscles from being able to walk PAST the teen, and continue the distance from home plate to the edge of the pitcher’s mound. Seems like the same muscle awareness would have slowed the ability of the lightweight teen from being able to lift the head, neck and shoulders of the heavier man “repeatedly” in order to slam it against the sidewalk.

      All of this makes me wonder. But the blood traces… not so much. YMMV.

      • Xena says:


        Something caused SOME injuries to the back of his head that bled, and the blood ran down and around and was smeared somewhat here and there.

        I wish that I were able to video a demonstration. Think of taking shampoo. Using your left-had, Put it on a specific portion on your head where GZ’s boo-boo is on the side facing left in the photo. Use your fingers across to the right. Now start to come down by going back left and down, using all 5 fingers. It leaves the pattern we see on GZ’s head.

        Count the rivulets. There are five.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Sort of like they’ve been finger painted? Obviously, for rivulets of that size and shape to form, there would have to be quite a quantity of blood flowing. Because blood is thick and sticky, viscous and needs some weight or volume to flow as patterned. But there are not wounds enough to cause such a flow or volume. I think that medical analysis is in order.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            I think that medical analysis is in order.

            Indeed! Some time ago you wrote about the time it takes for blood to dry. Check over in chat for a request, please. 🙂

      • When I look at the scratches on GZ’s face and his nose, I’ve always thought he ran into some bushes or brush or even the tree that was there. That makes me suspect where he got the scratches on his face and probably what set him off to be mad at TM enough where he decided to shoot him.

        Then I believe afterwards he just simply felt the back of his head and checked his hands to see if he was bleeding. When I look at the blood on his head, I believe he felt it the first time and smeared it and it re-bled in the trails that he smeared already with his hands. Didn’t a witness say that when he got up he seemed like he was worried about something or characterized it like that? Like he put his hand on his head because he was worried on how he was going to explain this.

      • Rachael says:

        I think there is one version where he claims to have been punched in the face 20-24 times. There is NO way that could happen and his face would look like it did. Do you know what a face punched that much would look like? Not like that. He looks more like he got in a fight with a cat.

  4. willisnewton says:

    Just playing devil’s advocate here, but if the back of your head bleeds while you lie on your back, wouldn’t the blood run onto the ground? Then, when you stand up it would run down towards the ground.

    I don’t think there would ever really be traces of blood running UP to the pinnacle of one’s head unless you were injured doing yoga.

    There are plenty of better reasons to argue that GZ is not credible, IMO than to point at the direction of these bloody trickles. I’d be happy to hear a coherent counter argument however. Perhaps I’m missing something.

    • If I think I’m bleeding and its wet outside, I’m going to feel the back of my head to see if I’m bleeding. That’s what the smear looks like, like he felt the back of his head and very recently prior to the picture being taken.

    • Xena says:

      Blood wouldn’t run sideways as though a cut across the head. The wounds are round. I keep saying — GZ put blood on his head and ran his fingers through it. Five rivulets of the length of fingers. He got those boo-boo’s in a fight that weekend and hopefully there is something in his text messages proving that.

    • papa813 says:

      if the back of your head bleeds while you lie on your back, wouldn’t the blood run onto the ground? Then, when you stand up it would run down towards the ground.

      The embed data for neighbor Joe’s pic shows it was taken at 7:19:07 pm, Assuming it would have taken a few seconds for GZ to push Trayvon off and stand up after the gunshot at 7:16:54 pm, all of the blood running DOWN in this pic would have done so in less than 120 seconds from two little nicks of .5cm (3/16″) and 2cm (3/4″), INCLUDING the lengthy blood trails on each side of his head down to under his ears.

  5. colin black says:

    Thanks everone but realy this post is about LMPapas brilliant conclusion to thease vt.
    Just wish I couldve been a fly on the wall as mrexpertknox wathched that vt.
    Loved the question you posed him re meusurements.
    Those 4 vts are masterpeices an even made me think off?
    Whats the guys name???

    Is it Michele Angelo ?
    The final part of the vt where you have the drawing to show Trayvons height entrance wounds juxtaposed with horizental lines.
    An vertical lines reminded me of some famous picture anyone know the one I mean.

    Blushedbrown what have i told you about getting me blushedblack with all thease compliments your dishing out.
    Now if I could write like a talk then I might deserve one now an again.

    Or at least a spell check I could work on this lap top.
    My other lap top the one before had a spell check an red sqiugle line meant spelled wrong.
    Click open wee box press correct or something an it made it correct.
    So sony I think I had problems had to upgrade but went for an accer.
    Word check I turn on same thing red squigle but theres no option to correct .
    That I can figure out .

  6. colin black says:

    Now here is a case with 4 defendants.

    A truely disspisicable crime with detail so horrific I dont wish to have to mention details or disscus them here.
    If you wish to I will leave a link.

    The reason I bring this case up is because of the Raceial hatred an sterotypical msm frenzy because the victims were two reenage student or high school sweet hearst.

    Four defandants all Black three male on Female.
    Each chargged with 38 offences each includeing double capital murders multiple rape kidnapp car jacking an on an on.
    Each defendant were tried seprate an all pled not guilty .

    First three defendants were found guilty an more or less irlelevent to my post.They were each convicted all counts an given natural life sentance.

    Now the fourth defendandt an the ringleader was also the last to be tried..An his attorney adoppted tactics via his client whom he was advocateing on behalf of.
    Just as M Omara chose to advocate for fogen.

    Both have chosen the defence attack the victim defence.
    Make it the victims fault they were murdered.
    The ringleader chose to say sure he sold crack an weed .
    Sure he hung out with bad dudes an that white colllage kids came over to his part of town all the time to buy drugs.

    Sure that young girl came over with some dude.
    Bu t she had been over before an the bump an grind was part of how she earned the drugs.
    An he had sex with her gave some crack as payment an when she left his room thats all he kknew an last time he say her.
    An as to her dude freind well he never even say him.

    Wasnt me wasnt there an my dna is nothing to do with her death is his defence.
    He was onvicted an given the death penalty.
    An all the raceial annanomitty that had built up dureing the first 3 trials evaporated.
    As People of all races colours an creeds.
    Were so disgusted at the tactic employed by the defendant an his mouth peice,
    The horror an shock of this monster haveing the audacity to blme thease two young inoccent kids for there own fault of going to the wrong house at the wrong time.

    Unified all peoples off sane an sound mind that a defendant could blame the victims for there getting themselfs murdered.Brought the dommunitys of difffernt cutures closer than ever before.
    An I beleive something similar if not of an ever greater magnitude will manifest.
    Because this sweet Child was taken before his time.
    Hopefully his passing will be not in vain.
    An give a lot of time to other Children.

    And this will have been because it made people stop an think when Trayvon was killed at 17 by a good merican whom thought his act would be sight unseen .
    No one would hear Trayvon SCREAM

    After all he was ever so keen to keep the neighbour hood clean.
    Just as he himself is nothing but sqeaky clean.
    For the things that he did he made sure were un seen.
    June tenths the time when we will glean the things he wanted un seen.
    Because one things for sure he will never come clean.

    • Horriffic crimes happen everywhere and all the time. The issue here isn’t GZ, the issue is the SPD, FDLE, and the Orlando Sentinal all allowing GZ not only get a free pass for murder but to engage in a collaborative effort to cover it up.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Hammer it in, LLMPapa!

      Go, go, go!

      Great job!

    • This makes total sense why GZ packed on a 100lbs. No way can you do that in a few months without trying, unless you had a baby and your metabolism didn’t change. I don’t think he had a baby, I think he killed a baby. He knows and everyone else knows including his own lawyer, he will be forced to give this demonstration if he testifies. That’s why he needs more time, to pack on another 100lbs so this demonstration will be impossible.

      Can you imagine him trying to explain how TM saw his gun, then explain how he pulled it out with his right hand even though he’s left handed and then explain what angle he shot TM at with 1 arm fully extended.

      It would seem that the real truth is if the gun was drawn by GZ by his left hand, then TM probably tried to grab it to prevent from getting shot and GZ switched hands to keep it away from his reach and used his strong hand to hold TM while he was begging him the entire time, I bet GZ told Jeremy to “get back” because he intended to fire his weapon while they were still standing and while TM begged for help hence the “he told me to get back” after the shot. This would make the most sense about someone seeing “arms” without TM punching someone.

      I also bet TM was trying to get to the nearest people. The nearest lights for help and I bet that was Jeremy’s home but they weren’t going to help him.

      • pat deadder says:

        OMG poor kid.This just gets sadder and sadder if what you think is true and it does sound reasonable.

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Am I correct in understanding that the FBI only said that they interviewed 30 people or so and that none of those people said that gz was prejudiced or racists?
    Do you think that the FBI would check out gz’s texting, tweeting, etc. for the last few years to see if he wrote anything with a prejudiced or racist mind?

    • Like his myspace page? Believe it or not, I found that and linked it to a message board who sent it to TYT and they sent it to Huffingtonpost and BAM it was all over the news. I’d give you the website and the exact post if I actually can find it again, but this isn’t a forum you want your kids to see(hey I’m a single man, gimme a break).

    • Nef05 says:

      The feds released those witness interviews to the state, making it discoverable and was released to the defense and the public at that time. IF that was all the FBI had, the simplest thing would be to say, “you have it already. The state released it to you on MM/DD/YYYY”.

      I believe there has to be more. Not only are the feds generally very thorough, they recently very pubicly objected to giving the defense any additional info on it’s ongoing investigation, indicating they might go to the fed. courts with a supremacy claim, even if fogen’s team goes through procedure, which they have not, to date.

      It could be they just don’t like state defenders and judges yanking their coattails and decided to fight, but there seems to be more than just a “whip out your… rulers, boys” kind of fight here. (JMO)

  8. pat deadder says:

    LLMP you are a God send for TM’S family,and anyone interested in justice.I think it’s difficult for normal people to imagine how difiant gorgeous george’s mind really is. Does anyone know when omara has to let the court know if he is combining the SYG and trial together. Not that I think he is but I’d luv to hear the judge asked him in open court and he has to tell her he isn’t..Personally I think fogen is screwed,blued and tattoed or at least I hope so and I hope he knows it too so he can mull it over in his phycotic mind.

  9. Trained Observer says:

    For run-up to trial, should we not background ourselves by getting a little Afro-Peruvian on … and could this be how Fogen is simultaneously bulking up and prepping with the the purple corn defense?

    “Peruvian kids can’t stand Cau-Cau because it is essentially prettied up tripe. But if your pallet has evolved … you might find this Afro-Peruvian dish worth a try. It is seasoned with, as always, yellow chilli, but also turmeric, onion and cloves. It is mixed with chopped potato and served with white rice. …

    … Don’t forget to wash any Afro-Peruvian or Creole meal down will a tall glass of Chicha Morada, a very healthy soft drink made from Peru’s famous purple corn, one of the world’s best antioxidants.”


  10. colin black says:

    Great wordplay, Colin!
    Thankyou but you realy are to kind .
    There are some genious brillliant wordsmiths that write about this case,
    And others on the net at various blogs.
    I am not one off them an that not self depreaciating its a fact.

    My writting skills pale into comparison with far to many to name justice an seekers of truth for our boy Trayvon.
    My forte is my tounge through speach an debate is where I excell.
    I never raise my voice as thats the sign of a loser in a debate.
    Trying to out volume an talk over your adverissy because your loseing the argument with words.

    Volume means desperation an anger as you have no ratinal responce via words.
    Somehow my words flow through speach an powers of persusion do not transfer onto paper or thease days pixells.
    No matter Im happy to stand on the sidelines an cheerlead.

    The true greats with words an diction whos flawless prose prise every deceit utterd by this Galloot.
    Im in awe of there skills an abilty to say what would take me a couple of clumsy paragaphs.
    In a couple of sentaces on point on subject an logical with events we know happened in the real world.
    As oppose the world acording to garp.
    I mean world acording to fogen.
    Whom develops conveinant GAPS In his totall recall when ever he cant answer or doesnt want to answer a question.
    I cant recall
    I dont remember.
    Im not sure.
    Always said with a barely audible voice.

    So on behalf of all us hacks whom still know more about the genuine facts around this case.
    Than many so called acredited journos profesinalls an allegedly non biased reporters an talking heads an experts.

    I salute the skills of LLMPapa an so many other talented people helping us come to terms with this needless tragedy.
    Just being in the same company an being able to read an watch there magnificent work humbles me..

    Whom do so not for FAME or FOURTUNE but under the cloak of anonmouty as its not about them.
    Its about a CHILD whom was murdered by the suspect becuse he was begging an crying an not being gasterish at all.He was directing this street dramarama an could shout cut,
    An give this kid directions because this FN Asshole was screaming getting the neighbous out .Curtain twichers around.
    An the fillipin po po ariveing any second.
    This Kis was supposed to be under his control respecting his authority an dominant superior aura.
    Instead he cas crying like an effin baby shouting for his Mama all because he had a gun pointed at him by the creepy dude..bogeyman of nightmares…..
    An the police would be here any effin second.
    Whats it going to look like to them.A fully grown man threating a Child with a loaded gun pointed to his chest.
    Whilst restraing the child with a chink of his two garments in his balled up fist left hand.
    What ya gonna do you just no the police will jump to the conclusion he is the bud guy the suspect an shoot him.
    Cant have that so BOOM..
    Whew just in time as well as here comes a flashlight.
    Kid had to die was me or him.
    Me by the police by mistaking me for perp.
    So it was self defence if you think about it fogen logic.

    Make me feel I am sitting on the shoulders of Giants as we march onward tofether to see an demand that Trayvons Family an Loved ones .
    See his rabid mad murderer receive the jusctice he deseves for denieing Trayvon of the right to walk home from the shops to his legal abode.

    God bless you all.

    Trayvons Name Shall Always Live on.

    He has acheived more in his short unjustly ended short life.
    Than the suspect accused defendant convicted will never acheive if he lived to be a hundred years old.

    Trayvon has acheived more in Death than could ever have been expected of a sweet wee boy minding his own bix in an exclusive safe gated comunity.
    He has brought people together from all over the Planet in peace an Freindships,Some that will last forever.
    He as caused society to put its petty biases an steriotypical reactions.
    An behaviour under a non colour filtered microscope.
    An promted a debate on whats the real state of Raceism in America today.
    Trayvons murder shouldnt have happened truth be told I wish Id never heard his or foggens name.

    But now that we have Trayvon Death/Murder shall not be in vain.
    He died in the rain at the hands of a man.
    Whom invoked GODS NAME to justify the death of a CHILD he had slayen.

    Everyones praying and all of us are saying that this specimen thats potraying Trayvon as a boy that needed slaying.
    Will never get away with the Lords Name he is betraying.

    Thankyou everyone for careing ,,,,,

    Peace. .

    • blushedbrown says:


      I love reading your posts, Colin.
      Thank you for sharing your words with us.

    • SpecialladyT says:

      Colin, wow… You summed up what I feel safe to say, all of our thoughts an emotions. I thank you for that, friend.

    • type1juve says:

      @colin black

      Great post!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      colin…..so moving…..a masterpiece.
      Here is the your part that especially touched me:

      Trayvon’s Name Shall Always Live on
      He has achieved more in his short, unjustly-ended life than the suspect, accused defendant will ever achieve if he lived to be a hundred years old.
      Trayvon has achieved more in Death than could ever have been expected of a sweet, wee boy minding his own biz in an exclusive, safe, gated community.
      He has brought people together from all over the Planet in peace and friendships….some that will last forever.
      He has caused a society to put its petty biases and stereotypical reactions and behavior under a non-colour, filtered microscope….and promoted a debate on what the real state of racism is in America today.
      Trayvon’s murder should not have happened. Truth be told, I wish I’d never heard his or foggen’s names.
      But, now that we have, Trayvon’s Death/Murder shall not be in vain.
      He died in the rain at the hands of a man who invoked GOD’S NAME to justify the death of a CHILD he had slain.
      Everyone is praying, and all of us are are saying that this specimen, that is portraying Trayvon as a boy that needed slaying, will never get away with it…..he is betraying the Lord’s name.
      Thank you, everyone, for caring……

      • @You all have thoughtful comments

        This part touched me too b/c it’s so true. I will never forget this blog and the friends I have met here. I met Shannoninmiami on another blog and we’ve become friends that we even talk on the phone to each other. Trayvon’s death brought us all together where we can discuss the case, demand justice, share our feelings and even shed tears as we heard those blood curdling screams knowing he faced imminent death. His screams crushed my heart and pierced my soul.

        As Colin stated:

        He has brought people together from all over the Planet in peace and friendships….some that will last forever

  11. Jun says:

    FDLE is coming to check Fogen out

    He’s got something in his waist bands

  12. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    The following exchange seems to indicate that the CVSA thought gz’s account was a fairy tale:

    CVSA—Right…so there’s not a whole lot of distance between you and him


    CVSA—So you can’t really extend your arm.


    CVSA—Because then you’ve got a gun sticking out….what kind of gun is it?

    George—A keltec 9 mm.

    CVSA—A keltec 9, so it’s probably only about that long right.

    George—No, it’s shorter.

    CVSA—So it’s a little tight, I mean you probably don’t have any play

    George—No sir.

    CVSA– before that gun’s directly into his chest


    • nocamo33 says:

      Amazing! I really hope America takes a good look in the mirror when this case is over. I especially hope some Zimfenders come clean about their biases.

      • Xena says:


        I especially hope some Zimfenders come clean about their biases.

        That’s unlikely. Zimfenders are of the belief that GZ will be sent to prison due to some Black agenda conspiracy.

        It’s my impression that there are Zidiots who do not know, neither understand, the roots for the banner they picked up to thugify Trayvon Martin. The thugification began on sites such as Wagist and Riehl World, who say they are not White Supremacists. Indeed, their messages are sovereign citizenship which is an offshoot of White Supremacist. It rebels against the 13th Amendment of the Constitution — actually it rebels against all things government following the Civil War.

        Current sovereign citizenship does not care about the color of a person’s skin who helps promote their message. Just ask actor Wesley Snipes who is currently in federal prison for following the sovereign citizenship doctrine about federal taxes being unconstitutional.

        No. They won’t come clean about their biases but use them to promote another conspiracy against the government.

        • nocamo33 says:

          That’s beem one of my frustrations. I have decided not to let it get me down. That is, if “we” win in court, they want to nullify it by saying, “oh yeah, you one, but it’s only because Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, FDLE and fill in the blanks are a bunch of race-baiters.” It really doesn’t nullify the victory, but for those that really need to learn (those with veiled eyes), won’t get it.

          I have always been fascinated with Dr. King’s work. But, never before have I understood the emotional agony he must have experienced. And I am experiencing a mere drop in the bucket. For him and those facing segragation AND challenging it, they faced real danger, real loss of life. I am simply tasting what it’s like to debate with someone making fine-sounding arguments by twisting logic. All the while pretending not to be a true racist.

          I am disturbed by the behavior, but at the same time glad to see the true colors revealed. Rather than live the rest of my life ignorant of the truth.

          Also glad I found this blog. The crap on YouTube can easily be dismissed. But I was filling my head with the stuff people post on MiamiHerald and, I believe, OrlandoSentinel. I just cannot believe people can be so bent on hate.

          • Xena says:


            But I was filling my head with the stuff people post on MiamiHerald and, I believe, OrlandoSentinel. I just cannot believe people can be so bent on hate.

            They hate because they hurt. They hurt because they are losers with a sense of entitlement who assumed they didn’t have to work to be successful. Add fear and jealously with it, and you have a group of people as ignorant as the earth is old.

            Not only have they failed in their personal lives, but they failed at having their propaganda and lies steer the presidential election — twice.

            GZ fits into the same mold — failing classes in Criminal Justice, yet not stopping to find out what he should be aiming for, such as a vocation or competing in hamburger eating contests.

    • SpecialladyT says:

      Perfection! Fogen in his own words said he had “no play” in between him and Trayvon. Therefore, the two entries would have been CONTACT, NOT one intermediate and one contact. BINGO!

  13. itsallboutmeash says:

    When the barrel of the gun touched the button and Gorge pulled the trigger he knew that bullet went into Trayvon’s heart. That is why he did not pull the trigger again like most of the self defense classes teach. He knew it was a mortal wound that instant. He took pride in the fact it only took one shot.

    • He took pride in the fact it only took one shot

      Indeed he did. You can hear the pride in his voice when he says “I shot him”.

      • Rachael says:

        And talking with that witness about what ammo he used, like he had brought down prize antlers. Sickening.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Like some Burmese python from the Everglades, and he’d be getting a prize from the State for spotting and making the kill.

    • towerflower says:

      Not only that but in his interview with the cop who does the stress test. He makes the comment of “I knew I was on him.” So much for his following comments of “I thought I missed him.”

  14. colin black says:

    Crane-Station says:

    March 9, 2013 at 7:33 am

    Oh, I see that. Of course, it totally ignores GZ’s own explanation and demonstration about how he was very careful and took the time to make sure his own hand was out of the way. GZ even demonstrated. And when you carefully explain how you carefully made really sure your own hand was out of the way, you are not explaining self-defense. Plus, how come GZ didn’t have even a single drop of blood on him, if he shot someone who was on top of him?

    Its kinnda self defence on fogens part
    Self defence from blowing his own left hand of.

    ps no they never played love hurts when I used to watch them.
    Nazereth are from Fife in Scotland Dumfermline.
    Used to do a lot of Bowie covers an Rod Stewart covers even T Rex
    this was before they even had a contract.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree, colin:

      And when you carefully explain how you carefully made really sure your own hand was out of the way, you are not explaining self-defense. Plus, how come GZ didn’t have even a single drop of blood on him, if he shot someone who was on top of him?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The only self defense I have ever seen gz engaging in was gz shooting his bullets of LIES at all of the interview questions.

        Problem is that the evidence is bulletproof from that kind of shooting.

  15. Malisha says:

    Oh no Oh no, HA HA HAHAHA! Ouch ouch it hurts, LLMPapa Stoppit!

    Top ten reasons why no SYG hearing:

    10. Fogen had to go back to college to learn to spell SYG; he thought it was a “Sick hearing” and he was getting ready for it.

    9. Shellie was told she was not allowed to testify at the SYG hearing and she threw a fit and now Fogen has to do what SHE wants for a year to get her back into a cutesy frame of mind.

    8. Fogen thought the hearing was a “Sand Your Grouse” hearing but he has not been able to catch a grouse to sand because he can’t go out after 6:00 p.m. for fear of being killed by the NBP operatives.

    7. Because O’Mara couldn’t depose Crump, he couldn’t find out what to ask at depositions of DeeDee and the other DeeDee and that other young woman who was DeeDee at one point and the DeeDee who was pretending not to be DeeDee, so he has been deprived of the opportunity to provide an adequate defense and all because of racism.

    6. Fogen let O’Mara know that Judge Nelson was real suspicious.

    5. The Junior College that kicked Fogen out has leaked to the press a midterm exam in a course he took in 2007 in which the question was: “Describe the Florida SYG law and give one example” and Fogen answered: “If you call the police and say the suspect is a real suspicious asshole you get to kill him and you don’t even have to remember the address.”

    4. Corey threatened that if Fogen got on the stand she was going to authorize BDLR to cross-examine him, and that isn’t fair; this just shows how they’re depriving Fogen of any chance of a fair trial because of that terrible terrible prosecutor.

    3. The Outhousers have not donated enough money for new ties for O’Mara and West and if they appear in the same tie they wore to a prior hearing, Women’s Wear Dailey is going to print a really mean article about them.

    2. Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz have not been invited on Anderson Cooper’s show to comment on the evidence to be brought out at the SYG hearing and both of their agents are considering suing for tortious interference with the right to make fools of themselves on national TV.

    And the number one reason why there will not be a SYG Hearing:

    1. Some Mexican called Fogen “homie,” and this caused Fogen to have flashbacks, nightmares and reactivated PTSD!

  16. Gorge saw the button as the target at the beginning of the stalk. He knew it was over Trayvon’s heart. In the dark of the night he knew when the barrel of his gun touched the button it was time to pull the trigger. It was a planned part of the hunt by the predator.

  17. Malisha says:

    News Flash: Defendant in Trayvon Martin murder case found lying!

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    LLMPapa, I just saw your brand new video that you put out today.
    Whooohoo! You are really summing it up and driving it in!!

  19. Malisha says:

    The funny part is that Knox doesn’t try to use any science to explain how you can grab your gun from your hip with a real arm (one without bias and with an elbow in it, and a straight bone below the elbow and a straight bone above it) and then shoot a bullet directly into a torso that is angled over you, anchored at or above your midline, leaning forward to smother you, creating a crevice between your prone body and his taller, seated and leaning one. He just says “it can be done; try it (without bias).”

    That’s, excuse me, like saying, “yes you can get your head smashed on the concrete nine times without it showing more than two little capillary type lacerations, try it (without bias),” or better yet, “yes you can take 2.5 minutes to walk from where he says he parked his car over to where he says he looked for the address and back to the T just in time to be called ‘homie,’ at a normal walking pace, try it (without bias).”

    The sun DOES circle around the earth once every 12 years — try it (without bias), you’ll see! Oh you can’t do it? That’s because you’re not a scientist. First go get a science thingy on-line and then come back and try it again, really without bias this time, you’ll see. (roundy hand gestures showing sun circling, slowly, over and over, with feeling)

    • Malisha says:

      LLMPapa can you make a video that shows the right kind of hand and elbow to have to do these science demonstrations without bias?

    • Rachael says:

      LMAO – and it is always a pleasure to wake up to you too!!

    • Jun says:

      Knox is a Zidiot

      The way they work, is they pick and choose bits and pieces and claims it works

      He does not seem to understand he has to make all the pieces line up together to form Fogen’s claims, otherwise, he looks like a liar (dramatic squirrel moment)

      He does not realize anything about the MMA and the type of attack Fogenhats claimed happened

      Fogenhats was bald and the only way to grab his slimy head is to tiger claw both sides of his head, and grab the back, to even perceive doing the sidewalk headbounce, and anyone doing that action from the mount would have to be leaned over with elbows bent to get leverage to even perform such an action

      Considering the close proximity, Fogenhats would have to hold the gun in a real odd position which would show rather difficulty even pulling the trigger, let alone the fact it is not intermediate range, and also the fact the victim had no dna trace whatsover from Fogenbottomz on his sleeves, cuffs, or hands, on both hoodie and undershirt, and the only perceivable way to get straight trajectory is a weird hand position and it would be a close range shot

      He also does not even account for the misaligned holes and how Fogenbottoms is supposed to grab the shirt and tug it down and also toward himself, pulling the victim towards him

      There’s also the fact that Fogenbottomz is a former bouncer, may still be a gang member, a known criminal with a history of violence, even attacking cops, and the likelihood of 158 pound teenage kid Trayvon besting Fogenbottomz with no combat experience and even gaining mount sounds farfetched, and the 40 pound plus weight advantage Fogenhatz has

      But what do I know, tshirts and cardboard are biofidelic LMAO

  20. SearchingMind says:

    More evidence of fraud

    In response to Obwon’s assertion: “Unfortunately for the Trayvon on top hypothesis, the shot is straight in with no angle. No person on the bottom can take such a shot, unless they have bones that bend in the middle (…)”.

    Mr. Expert Knox responded:

    “As to the angle of the shot, it is entirely incorrect to assert that Zimmerman could not have made the shot at that angle (see Spitz & Spitz, The Medicolegal Investigation of Death). It is quite possible; try it (without bias)”.

    I am really beginning to fall in love with this Knox-guy because he is the type you would want to lure to the stand and go straight for the kill. Consider the following:

    Mr. Knox had- and still has the opportunity to demonstrate “that Zimmerman could have made the shot at that angle” but refused- and still refuses to do so. On the contrary, Mr. Knox performed his demonstration STANDING, his hands OUTSTRETCHED, RAISED to SHOULDER LVEL while his “victim” was of the same height and standing face to face with him (Knox). Mr. Knox wants you to perform a demo he himself could not perform. He wants you to do so “without bias”!

    The source cited by Mr. Knox to support his claim “that Zimmerman could have made the shot at that angle”, does not support that claim. In fact Mr. Knox refuses to pinpoint the specific page(s) of his source that supposedly support his claim. Either this Mater of Science degree holder did not even learn how to properly cite a source or he is intentionally committing fraud.

    A few years ago The Israeli Defense Industry developed guns with curved barrel with a mounted mirror for urban warfare. This is the only type of gun GZ could have used to produce the kind of trajectory that killed Trayvon, if he (GZ) was lying with his back on the ground, while Trayvon was mounted on top of him, leaning over him, straddling and suffocating him. I am not sure GZ used this type of gun (which is available to only Israeli- and US-special forces) to commit the crime .

    Mr. Knox, the more you talk, the more you reveal who you really are: a fraudster.

    • Jun says:

      The guy is full of crap

      It is a straight front to back trajectory with misaligned holes

      The only way for that shot is by tugging on the shirt

      that would have caused momentum for the person to have fallen forward while pulled

      on top of the other inconsistencies with his conclusion

      He’s a douche

    • SearchingMind says:

      The trajectory is the single most powerful evidence in this case, because it comprehensively removes Zimmerman from underneath Trayvon. That means certain death for the self-defense story/stories as concocted by Zimmerman. With Zimmerman scooped off the ground and his self-defense story dead as a consequence, every other piece of evidence (including the results of the fiber-analysis which MIGHT be subject to multiple reasonable interpretations) falls in line – and allows no more than one single interpretation. This also explains the taunting confidence BDLR usually displays.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree, SearchingMind…..and the fact that the wound was intermediary range and the holes on the sweatshirts were contact range.

        I still can’t get over this gz comment to the CVSA about Trayvon’s hand:

        CVSA—you just fired it, like almost from the hip?
        George—I think I made sure, that it wasn’t, cause my hand, my hand was in the way, I made sure it was past my , cause his other hand was still on my face.

      • Rachael says:

        Yep – while “they” go on and on about DeeDee.

    • SearchingMind says:

      When I was still a student (2009/2010), doing what the EXPERT Knox did – i.e. false citation of sources – was considered a form of fraud and would get ones thesis thrown out. Maybe the rules have changed.

      • ay2z says:

        What was the false citation? I saw his claim of ‘peer review’ on one that was from a conference presentation, but it was listed as published from that, not in a peer reviewed professional journal. Not sure that would be a false citation, more like elaboration and embellishment that goes above and beyond. (not that this wouldn’t get called out for it if he used it to support his expert qualifications.)

      • SearchingMind says:

        Knox claimed that “it is entirely incorrect to assert that Zimmerman could not have made the shot [i.e. the straight line shot, front to back, without angles] at that angle [i.e. Zimmerman lying with his back on the ground while Trayvon was mounted on top of him, leaning over him, straddling him suffocating him, etc.]. “It is quite possible”, Knox claimed further. To support his claim, Knox referenced “Spitz & Spitz, The Medicolegal Investigation of Death”. Nothing in the book cited by Knox (and it’s called “Spitz & Fisher” not “Spitz & Spitz” of which I have a copy) supports Knox’s claim. Knox knows- or should have known that. What he did is the same as inserting non-extent sources in the footnotes of an academic paper.

    • Tzar says:

      he’s another one of them “dazzle them with bullshit” types
      If referencing a whole fucking book for one specific idea does not reveal the fraud that he is nothing will, lol

      We would do the legal institution a real service by exposing him as thoroughly as possible

  21. Lynn says:

    Sorry, this is totally off topic, but I know a few here have mentioned the Michael Dunn case. A couple weeks ago Angela Corey announced she would personally be handling this case. Tonight the news here in Jacksonville released some interesting tidbits. Dunn’s car contained gun, ammo, a silencer and nunchucks! Just another reason to love Florida’s Sunshine Laws. This guy’s toast.


  22. rayvenwolf says:

    Before going further into the vid LLMPapa I want to congratulate you on your use of the LotR’s soundtrack and mention the fact I am watching The Towers at the same time.

    You and the good Prof are pulling double duty as Gandalf the white. Omara is Sauromon George is Grima if not an orc. Knox is Gollum. Wolfinger is Morgoth. Lee is Sauron. BDLR would likely be one of the Rohirrim. West is Sauromon when he’s acting as Big Sharkey.

    Love the vid and will eventually see if the fraud expert has anything to say in response. Well done vid that is straight to the point.

  23. kimmi says:

    I’m not sure if this will work on WordPress.
    Trying to post a screenshot, seems Knox (on his site) thought Trayvons clothes could have been pulled from his body (by Fogen)
    “one of two things had to happen: either (1) the clothing was being pulled away from Martin’s body (presumably by George Zimmerman) or (2) see link
    If screenshot doesn’t work, see link, before Knox removes that too.
    As it seems he has since been bought and paid for by the defense!


  24. KA says:

    So, just thinking. If the hoodie sweatshirt was wet and had the can in the front pocket and the sweatshirt underneath was less wet (presumably) and was not a hoodie, there is no possible way the bullet holes could conceivably line up between them to use gravity as the pull. It will be mathematically impossible for the fabric elasticity to be the same much less considering a can in the pocket, different shirts and fits, and varying wetness would have to be different as a matter of reason and no conceivable situation would make the bullet holes line up in the shirts unless they were held in place and together forcibly by a force outside gravity. There is just no way. Knox is a fool. There is no way his scenario would work with gravity..just no possible way.

    Oh yeah, he’s screwed.

    • KA says:

      Ok, I must be tired, in rereading that paragraph did not really convey well what I was trying to say…

    • kimmi says:

      My comment is in moderation, I forgot the 2 link rule…
      I wanted to post a screenshot, seems Knox (on his site) thought Trayvons clothes could have been pulled from his body (by Fogen), but a screenshot wouldn’t work.
      “one of two things had to happen: either (1) the clothing was being pulled away from Martin’s body (presumably by George Zimmerman) or (2) see link
      Since it didn’t work, see link, before Knox removes that too.
      As it seems he has since been bought and paid for by the defense! See link:


      • Jun says:

        The trajectory blows away the on top theory completely

        He needs to just give up

        The gravity will not cause the hoodie and undershirt to be 3 inches or more (my guess is 6 inches) outward and for the bullet holes to move from near the left should down to close to the solar plexus

        there is only one way for everything to have occurred and that the defendant tugged the shirt away from the victim’s body and downward as well

        the only way for him to get the trajectory out and put his arm out is if he was on top of the victim or they were standing

        Bottom line

        Besides that, the witnesses never stated he came out from under Trayvon, they simply stated, he simply rose up to his feet

      • Rachael says:

        Wow – let’s see how long that stays on there!

  25. Opercarla says:

    ALWAYS a harbinger of truth Malisha! Thank you!

  26. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    How are you doing? Are you feeling better?

  27. colin black says:

    thanks, colin, will play that next. Have you heard this one

    Aye I sure have am a huge fan of the bard .
    The real bard Rabbie Burns ..
    You know you have a genious as a poet writter an song writter.
    When a Nation such as Russia were probably every citizent is a poet an loves poetry.
    And has produced some of the worlds greatest poets.
    When Russia adopts Rabbie Burns as the best ever poet an have him as there own Natinal poet an also horour Burns Day you know he cant be half bad.
    Many famous athours haill from Scotland as do famous charecters such as Shelock Holmes based on a Doctor lecturer at Edinburgh University Hospital.
    Edinburgh was the centre of the World re medical progres fron the 15th century till this present day.
    Thats why grave robbers bhurke an hare the most famous grave robbers.
    Whom never robbed a grave just murdered there victims.
    In facy Bhurkeing is a medical term used for murdering an was what in essence fogen may have done to Trayvon in his last few seconds of life.

    Anyway Conan Doyle later based his famous detective on the menerismis an speach patter of this lecturer.
    Also Jeckly an Hyde Sir Walter Scot also from Edinburgh based his charecter half man half beast.

    On a ral person whom lived an was hanged in the City.
    His name was Deacon Brodie.
    By day a respectable meber of society the church considered a gentleman.
    By night he donned a mask an as a Deacon knew where much of the Citys valubles were stored cash spirts you name it he stole it.
    An he also loved the night life an the Ladies if you know what I mean.

    Come to think of it there was a Murder by Bhurkeing in America so called as they perfected it as a means to murder.
    An yet leave no trace on the body.
    Bacicly you excert pressure on a persons chest preventing the breatheing.
    Cant breath you cant live therfore you expire no marks or obvious cause of death.

    The muder by bhurkeing was in Arizona I think of a multi millionaire called Ted Binnion whom owned or part owned some casinos.
    His girlfreind an his /body gaurd /fittness instructor /bff….
    Allegedlly bhurked him an then hhe went out to dig up the dead guys Binnions underground chamber burried in the dessert with millions of dollors of silver bullion.

    Thats how I remebereed at the time binnnion an bullion was an istant where I here that music from the twilight zone in my head.

    Binion Bullion got Bhurked the three Bees now am hearing that music again…

    And its burked not bhurked apparentaly.


  28. Malisha says:

    I spoke tonight with an 81-year-old widow who knows that I follow the Trayvon Martin case. She wanted me to know that there was a new development in the case: “It seems that the main prosecution witness was caught lying!” She said in alarm.

    I was crocheting and chatting with her. I explained the thing very calmly and simply for about 15 minutes. She followed every single thing I said. She then got it, was disgusted and appalled at what the media had done to sell the false story, and said: “In the end it won’t matter because the jury will have to hear the evidence, not this nonsense.” I agreed. Then she said, “You know, when I was a young woman and I first met my husband, he was six years older than me. If he had been killed and the lawyers started asking me questions about how I reacted, I might very well have told them that I was in the hospital, just to get them to stop bothering me. I can’t even imagine what that poor girl has been put through. Those lawyers and their fans should be ashamed of themselves; how can they sleep at night!” She is committed to telling all the people in her social circle (quite a prominent social circle “in the know” about many governmental affairs, because she is a prominent military widow) how atrocious these reports attacking DeeDee are. I know some of her contacts; I wonder if there will be an op ed piece about this soon.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am so glad you shared this with us, Malisha!

    • SearchingMind says:

      Given the extraordinary public analysis and debate of the evidence that will be going on during the trial, there is a very good chance the jurors will be sequestered.

    • leander22 says:

      Good woman, may she live long and keep as curious and bright as she seems to be.

  29. Malisha says:

    Fogen was always a trouble-maker, was fired from his employment time and again for anger management problems and/or for issues like bullying/squealing/tattling. He lied about paying rent; he lied about “mentoring,” he lied about his activities for the NW; he lied about his “helping to solve crimes”; he lied about Trayvon Martin; he lied about money for bail; he lied about his reasons for killing Trayvon Martin; he lied about his school and his “degree”; he lied about his nose and his ass and his head and his intentions and he lied about the incidents with the ATF guys and he lied about his ex-girlfriend and he lied about his Afro-Peruvian ancestor. He lied and he lied and he lied. He did have a problem, “homie”; his problem was that he was a liar. Now the lies are coming home to haunt him.

    If the prosecution lets him cop a plea less than murder-2, the political fallout will harm Corey’s career. Let her decide whether she’s giving up her future for the likes of this lilly-livered liar. We all know that if BDLR is not a total coward, he can kick ass in the courtroom so badly that Fogen’s name will be a joke to defense lawyers from now until three times doomsday. If Fogen hasn’t figured it out yet, it is O’Mara’s job to educate his client. The press can’t save Fogen’s ass with their “DeeDee lied” story and they can’t save it by getting rid of Judge Nelson. She’s got intelligence, moral fiber and staying power. She doesn’t waste words and she can see, hear and read.

    The idea of a “SYG rolled into a trial” is only 42,000 yuk-yuks tied together; it is nothing more significant than that. O’Mara is not even fool enough to make a motion to do that; his saying he will is simply his way of avoiding the Outhousers figuring out he’s Ms. Packman without any vitamins on this trip. He’s a little pink mouth going goop goop goop and two little circumflex eyebrows going poing poing poing and that’s all he can ever be in this case; he chose a loser; he took on a loser.

    If there is total corruption and a fix so nauseating that it unseats the very hinges upon which American Democracy creaks open and closed at times, then there will be a secret plea deal and somehow Nelson will allow herself to approve it in violation of everything legal and proper. And if not, there is going to be a trial that will make Rene Stutzman Stutter. Kuh-kuh-kuh-kuh-kun-kunnnnnn-vick-shun. Choke choke splutter. Ugh. Wretch wretch retch retch. Guilty.

  30. colin black says:

    Yes he definately make a deal of mentioning the button.
    Why did he mention it at all dureing the playing of the non emergancy.
    Remeber he perceived this child so much a threat he didnt call 911 an when he mentions the button.
    Not remembering the button its from his own call.

    If he genuinely perceived Trayvon as a scary dude with something in his hands.
    Sneaking in between peoles houses an creeping along there lawns.
    Whils looking in windows.
    He would have hit 911 on speed dial.

    But no all this child wandering home talking on a hands free with his girl warrants is a non emergancy number.
    He knew he wasnt creeping or snoopin but probably thought he acting weird because he is on a hands free device an fogen to dumb to realise.

    He mentions the button to Serrino because it was in his brain an out hismouth before he thought ir procesed his thoughts only diverting the word as he spoke int o sentances he thought inocuous.
    Button?I cant remeber even saying button.
    See officer buttons not important to me.
    Buttons non even worth mentioning in the scheme of things..Button nope nothing there.
    Here pulls puppet glove out from posket .
    Starts jiggling the glove puppet up an down /.
    Look over here look over here button? nothing to see there look over here look over here.

    He is so obvious its insulting to your intelegence to even listen to his lies.
    Let alone expect us to beleive them.
    Is that why theres so little vt as oppse audio of foggen being interveiwed.
    All Ive seen are the voice stress vt an only heard audio for his other statements.

    Is there a reason for that lack of visual vt I mean?
    An if there is a reason is it because theres a lot of nods an winks going on .
    That they didnt want anyone to see.
    I mean come on is it true papa zimm was allowed to sit in on an interveiw?

  31. LLMPapa, thank God for your work. I was just thinking…how could he do it? How could he? The child was screaming and begging for his life. How could he hold onto his shirt and shoot him in the heart? O.M.G.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      You are right, SouthernGirl….how could he do it?
      Witness 18 asked the same question:

Oh, my God. Why would somebody kill someone like that?

    • Rachael says:

      Murder. First-degree murder if you ask me.

    • Not Angela Lansbury says:

      I’ve been thinking about this too. I think Fogen was under extreme psychological distress at the thought of never catching up to his father and brother, never meeting his mother’s approval, never finishing school, never joining law enforcement, never being a judge, never amounting to anything. He’d held a graduation party for a degree he didn’t hold and was either on or just out of academic probation. He was on constant lookout for neighborhood perps, not to protect the neighborhood, but to score a job with SPD.

      Now somehow he finds himself in the black rain detaining a terrified, screaming teenager at gunpoint after having menaced him by car and foot for some 20 minutes. He’d riffled his pockets and knew the kid was clean; he’d interrogated him and knew he was a neighborhood visitor with no knowledge of any burglaries. He’d detailed his contact with this kid on recorded call to police and knew they were en route. He knew he was going to prison when this kid told his side of the story, and he knew there were witnesses who would back the kid up. Game over for his future.

      And then he heard and saw Ofc. Smith’s lights and sirens as he drove up TTL. I’ve often wondered about his statement to Serino in reference to Trayvon reaching for his gun: “I was out of time.” Was he actually referring to those lights and sirens? I think he decided at that point to sacrifice Trayvon’s future for his own. He almost got away with it.

  32. ay2z says:

    colin, I thought the same thing, about the button in the fogen’s stories, or total lack of mention of a button as part of the description during the 911 call, or afterwards.

    He was prompted for memory recall as Serino plays the 911 tape on February 29th for the fogen. Fogen hears his button comment and reacts, as you said, claims he didn’t remember saying that. Maybe he did not remember telling sean that on the call, some have speculated that someone can be heard prompting the fogen with description of the suspect. If that was happening, it’s conceivable that he repeated what he was told without thinking about it, or he simply did not want to bring it up because it meant something associated with his actions.

    The way Trayvon fell, ‘to the left’ fogen said, then he didn’t remember when asked later, how fogen got Trayvon off him. Had Trayvon been on top and fell forward, an angry fogen may have pushed him off immediately, whch would turn Trayvon on his side and likely then onto his back. Just another point he ‘forgot’.

    • ay2z says:

      thanks, colin, will play that next. Have you heard this one? 😉

      (new word for the fogen in here? He’s but a coof, for all that!)

    • ay2z says:

      that didn’t read right in first sentence– lack of mention afterwards, about the button as part of the description. duh.

    • Dave says:

      If Trayvon had fallen on top of the killer I would expect to find his blood smeared on the front of the latter’s clothing.

      • ay2z says:

        Yes, and why did he cut his version that Trayvon fell to the side, to replace it with ‘I don’t remember’ when asked how he got out from under Trayvon, he didn’t want to way?

    • Rachael says:

      Of course he forgot “the gun” and the street name. There was something else he forgot, but at the moment I can’t remember what it was. Oh yeah, he forgot he was being recorded when he was talking about coons and assholes.

  33. kllypyn says:


  34. colin black says:

    Used to go an watch this band every Satarday night in me Freinds Dads pub in N Berwick.
    Used to support Meridian or perhaps other way around .Anyway a fine Scots rock Band ever heard of the Sensatinal Alex Harvey Band.?

    • Last night, Fred mentioned your comment- that you had been to see Nazareth, and I thought, ‘Cool, didn’t they do Love Hurts?’

      Excellent choice, thank you for posting this. I did not know they were Scots!

  35. colin black says:

    colin black says:

    March 8, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    When fogen or anybody retelling you a story tells you why something didnt happen.
    They are lieing an the thing they say never happened or couldnt have happened because of xyz they are lieing.

    When fogen is on the non emergancy call he made a comment re the button.
    The button was such a big deal to fogen that he pictures it in his mind as he pulled the trigger an murdered a child.
    Just as LMPapa shows the button was on Trayvons hoodie an the button was not shot through.
    Thats why when he is being intervued by Serino an listening to his non emergency call play out.
    When he hears himself say an he is wearing a button.

    His reptilian brain sprang into action as he re calls the murder he keeps seeing that button.
    Therfore he blurts out …Button I dont remember even or ever seeing a button.
    Or was it dont remember saying button either way its his attempt at self deneial
    Practiced liars must first deceive themselfs.
    To enaable them to plausably lie to others.
    By fogen denying the button.
    Makeing it an object of no significance ..button was he even wearing a button cant remeber.

    This proves that this object is of huge significance to him.
    Wich of course it is as it is as he fixated on it as part of his gangbanger mentality he had profiled Trayvon an he was in his own version of C O P S In his imagination.
    An when the bad boy bad boy what ya gonna do.
    Started running that was all fogen needed for to arm chase an kill
    Shooting right next to that big ole button that he plum done forgot about.
    He thinks that if he can nochalantly lie about the button when in reality the buttton is emblazoned in his memory of the thrill of the kill.
    Then he just so plain ole smart an no one no where will ever see how cunning he is.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      There’s always been something about the button that has bothered me. The fact that Fogen paid such close attention to even notice his button on a dark rainy
      night and thought it important enough to mention it to the dispatcher to then say he didn’t even remember it later when he hears himself talk about it just doesn’t seem right. It has always stood out to me to mean something, I just couldn’t figure out why.

      I like your theory, I just can’t help but feel there’s something more to it.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Coliin — Whatever Fogen plum done forgot, LLMpapa plum done helped us all remember to maximum effect.

  36. ay2z says:

    I’ve posted earlier but didn’t get the sign in right, sorry. Will wait a bit and try again.

  37. ay2z says:

    Oh, I’m in moderation, mea culpa! Missing some text, sorry Crane and Prof.

    If it’s ok, I’ll post the music link right here, please feel free to move it off. At 22 minutes, Mark plays ‘Why Worry’ (on his cherry red strat)

    • ay2z says:

      reposting my earlier post.

      I knew it was coming, I knew ‘what’ was coming, but still, when it came it was as if I was unprepared.

      I’m posting an evening with Mark Knopfler on the last thread, for those who are fans, and for those who would like an hour of music for the background.

      I knew I was an LLMPapa fan, but this has surpassed all the invesigation pieces so far. The button, my impression was that the bullet hole could not be seen because it was covered by the button, I will have to go re-read the docs.

      There must be pulls or holes from the button clasp pin, even if seen under magnification, there may be some distortion of the fibres and the pin point would probably abrade or separate them under the tearing force of the cloth.

      LLMPapa, thank you for your efforts, talents and insight, for telling this story.

      It’s important.

      And yes, the beating heart. Beautifully stated.

  38. ay2z says:

    I knew it was coming, I knew ‘what’ was coming, but still, when it came it was as if I was unprepared.

    I’m posting an evening with Mark Knopfler on the last thread, for those who are fans, and for those who would like an hour of music for the background.

    I knew I was an LLMPapa fan, but this has surpassed all the invesigation pieces so far. The button, my impression was that the bullet hole could not be seen because it was covered by the button, I will have to go re-read the docs.

    There ust be pulls from the button clasp pin, even if seen under magnification, some distortion of the fibres.

    LLMPapa, thank you for your efforts, talents and insight, for telling this story.

    It’s important.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I imagined the bullet hole to be below the button, but now I’m wondering if it wasn’t directly under it, and the reason the officer removed it from the hoody. At any rate, it may have been in the way of the CPR attempt even if the button was slightly above. Not to mention that, more and more, I’m leaning toward Fogen and Trayvon standing upright, and that Trayvon was trying to move away from Fogen.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Where did you get that an officer removed it?
        Last mention I know of this button was in one Serino’s narratives.
        Then it is noticeably missing from everything that I have seen.
        I think it is blacked out on one of the ME’s documents.

        I think that button may be significant.

        If it was returned to family, no harm/no foul.
        No bullshit “part of the investigation crap”.
        There should be pictures. Good pictures.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        In one of the first discovery dumps, the police report removing the button from the hoody to place a plastic bag over the wound to close it to properly administer CPR.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        At least that’s what I recall. At first the pro-Fogens were making a big deal about the button being taken off prior to the fight, but apparently the police took it off and put it in Trayvon’s pocket, if memory serves me (it doesn’t always). I should probably look but usually busy and posting here on the fly.

  39. Opercarla says:

    LMMPapa, I’m speechless! I’m teary-eyed. I’m hopping mad at fogen for stealing Trayvon Benjamin’s youth and taking his sweet soul away from his friends and family!!
    At the end the effect made me think Trayvon’s heart was beating. Was that your intent? It caused deep feeling of protection in me (mama bear I guess). You are a superb warrior for the Justice for Trayvon battle.
    I would like to nominate you for the first ever “Frederick Leatherman Justice Award”
    You are awesome!!!

  40. Trina Cosbie says:

    @LLMPAPA……Hook, line & sinker….Nail on coffin…..Hammer on head…..Tail on donkey…..Nothing but net……Bullseye………Lock, Stock & Barrel……..(((((STANDING OVATION & APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!))))))))………..Thank you for all your hard work, time, effort & diligence in the fight for Trayvon’s justice. God Bless You!!!

    • nocamo33 says:

      In the immortal words of one we are all fond of, Tick Tock! One more thing, what gangsta thug wears a pin of his grandma? I’ll tell you, no thug would wear something that would make him out to seem soft. I grew up with semi-pro thugs, and I can confidently say, Trayvon was no thug… Zimmerman is toast.

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ nocamo

        what gangsta thug wears a pin of his grandma?

        Exactly what I’ve been thinking for a while. Believe me when I say I know a lot of *OG’s* and young ones too, and NONE of them would wear something so corny. Only a sweet young man who deeply cares for his family would wear a button on his clothing. A gangsta would subject himself to the “dozens” (yo mama’s) for life.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Whas it his grandma? I thought it was a cousin or some family member who had passed. I vaguely remember It being something like that.

      • Lynn says:

        It speaks volumes, the fact that the photo button was first thing in the investigators report. Thanks for the Discovery Dump info. I always have to search to remember where I saw something.

        • blushedbrown says:


          YVW. I am glad I was able to help you. It drives me crazy to know I saw something and can’t find it also. I figured alot of people share that same feeling and I try to help so it won’t keep bothering them for the rest of the day in their brain.


  41. Romaine says:

    LLMPAPA….I just LOVE your work…Thank you so much for your time and effort in this young mans case…PLEASE continue to do what you do..I continuously pray for your insight and exposure of the true facts to be revealed in the JUSTICE forTrayvon B. Martin. His LIFE nor his DEATH was in VEIN. May the Blessings of GOD encamp around and about you and your loved ones always….SMILE

  42. Chocolate Diva says:


  43. Rachael says:

    LLMPapa, as so often happens when I watch your videos, my eyes well up with tears and overflow. I’m having more trouble than usual at controlling it this time. I am so full of love and gratitude for you. I so very much hope that the powers that be are paying attention. I can never thank you enough for what you are doing.

  44. Xena says:

    Get him, LLMPapa. I see that Knox removed the page from his blog where he attacked you. That must have been so embarrassing for him, I mean, with you being “anonymous” and all. LOL!!!

    • removed it, for real?


      • looneydoone says:

        I’m so hoping the defense retained Knox and that a good chunk of the $$ spent for experts went to him 😉

      • Rachael says:


      • Xena says:

        @Crane-Station. Yep. Removed. Deleted. Gone. Evidently, Knox did not exercise good judgment before he personally attacked LLMPapa.

      • Tzar says:

        Xena says:
        March 8, 2013 at 7:38 pm

        @Crane-Station. Yep. Removed. Deleted. Gone. Evidently, Knox did not exercise good judgment before he personally attacked LLMPapa.

        his mouth wrote a check his acumen can’t cash
        he jumped into the wrong sandbox

        • Heads up: I am stealing both of those for my next colloquialisms post! Brilliant.

        • Xena says:

          @Tzar. Knox’s behavior shows me how easily he can be persuaded. IMO, some Zidiot instigated that attack on LLMPapa. But, none of the Zidiots came to Knox’s defense because he also said GZ’s timing did not match up with his story. Well, LLMPapa and Trent Sawyer already proved that by using Dave’s video.

      • Rachael says:

        Of course he removed it. He doesn’t want anyone to see LLMPapa’s videos. He does not want to call attention to Papa so everyone can see what an idiot Knox is. He doesn’t want anyone to know who LLMPapa is or it exposes him for what he is.

      • Rachael says:

        Not just damage control, just didn’t want to advertise FOR Papa. As long as no one sees LLMPapa’s vids, Knox has no competition.

        I bet it is killing him to see this and not be able to say anything about it.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        The discussion has moved over to his May 18, 2012 post at http://knoxforensics.blogspot.com/2012/05/so-what-happened-to-hoodie.html in response to a comment there from Obwon.

        • Xena says:

          IIRC, comments on blogspot cannot be moved from one post to another. That comment was no doubt posted there originally. The blog post personally attacking LLMPapa has been deleted. It had several comments — maybe 5 with there being one person commenting and Knox replying.

        • Oh, I see that. Of course, it totally ignores GZ’s own explanation and demonstration about how he was very careful and took the time to make sure his own hand was out of the way. GZ even demonstrated. And when you carefully explain how you carefully made really sure your own hand was out of the way, you are not explaining self-defense. Plus, how come GZ didn’t have even a single drop of blood on him, if he shot someone who was on top of him?

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        His basic argument there is that since there’s 17.5″ from top of head to entry wound, and a normal head and neck would measure 10.5″ from top of head to top of shoulder (as LLMPapa’s mannequin measures), the entry wound must be only 7″ below the top of shoulder, exactly where the garment holes are. If thats ALL Knox is saying, he’s got a point.

        • Xena says:

          Going by Knox’s method, why don’t we measure the length of ears, and nose to chin. Geez! The ME and lab reports took into account two things — where the bullet hole is on Trayvon’s shirts, and where the bullet wound is on Trayvon’s body. Those are the only measurements that count.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:


        Correct, it’s a completely new discussion, started just last week bu just 1 person. I should have said ‘carried over’ from the discussion Knox deleted.

      • Lynn says:

        Since Knox locked up the comments after a few came to the aid of LLMPapa, Obwon just went to a blog that wasn’t locked. lol

      • Trained Observer says:

        Now that Channel 6 has hired not-so-foxy-Knoxy (without bias, as Malisha would note), it doesn’t look like we’ll get to experience his scientific intellect on the stand.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        Maybe Knox will have the integrity to apologize and admit that Llmpapa is right. I would like that.

        • Doubt that will happen, but no matter who is right or wrong, and I happen to think Papa is believable and Knox is not, the attack was tacky and unprofessional.

    • Tzar says:

      bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha

    • leander22 says:

      Xena, it is still available in the cached version. Which suggests to me fast saving. The cached version is usually gone after a couple of days.

      I am sure he takes care of Archive.org that no version survives. Thanks for the hint anyway.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        You make the greatest links– I am sure others have told you that. I have learned a great deal from your analysis of the emergency call codes, and police reporting details that I wouldn’t have otherwise thought to look at, and all your posts.

      • leander22 says:

        Are you Italian, Luce? I am very sad I gave up my Italian lessons, which I once took to be able to understand a famous Italian publication on the theater.

        Thanks for the compliments, although I don’t feel like I deserve it. Concerning the emergency codes, I have learned a lot from others on the web. Very early someone whose link I unfortunately I don’t remember helped me a lot to stop to fear the codes. Not many looked closer into that at the time. I simply searched for parts I wanted to understand better. There are many here, I would assume, that understand them as well as I do, and there are still some I am not sure about. Hard to store names and content with this huge amount of comments, I know. But I will surely remember your name from now on. 😉

    • ay2z says:

      May I add this, LLMPapa?

      • ay2z says:

        Question, is there wiggle room to say the EMT cleaned all the blood evidence away with his peroxide and wipes, then the scrapes bled again after that, while shooter was upright?

      • whonoze says:

        No. This photo was taken by W13 before the EMTs arrived, only moments after GZ got up from the body.

    • Not Angela Lansbury says:

      @Xena: “The ME and lab reports took into account two things — where the bullet hole is on Trayvon’s shirts, and where the bullet wound is on Trayvon’s body.”

      That’s right, along with the fact that the bullet went directly front to back. So the bone of contention between LLMPapa and Knox is whether there’s a misalignment between the garment holes and the entry wound. What Knox said is if there’s 10.5″ from the top of the head to the top of the shoulder, which LLMPapa demonstrates, then the entry wound (17.5″ from the top of the head) must be 7″ from the top of the shoulder, exactly where the garment holes are. Thus, no misalignment.

      We’re on the same side here, but I can’t dispute this math.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Well I can dispute his math. The wound is placed in relation to two immovable locations, the top of the head and the middle of the chest.

        You can’t do that with the garments because, you can’t know what position the garments were in when the shot was taken, except to say that at the time of the shot, all three holes were aligned.

        However, once the garments were released, they’d resume their normal positions somewhat. At least, if they had been, or were being stretched at the time of the shot, they’re going to return when released.

        You cannot simply measure from the top of the shoulder to find the location of the hole in the garment, because you cannot know whether or not the top of the garment was aligned with the top of the shoulder at the time the shot was fired. So, you have to figure out where the hole in the garment is, in terms of the garment being relaxed.

        To do this the ME takes one measurement down, starting at the place where the shoulder seam meets the neckline. Then a horizontal measurement of the distance of the hole from the seam at the side of the garment. When the ME does his forensic testing, he will use the exact same method as LLMPapa did to locate the wound on the body, then locate the holes in the garments. He will then place the garments on the body and record the distances of the holes from the wound. Gravity will not stretch the cloth, so the holes in the cloth will be very close to the wound if gravity is the cause of the separation of the garments from the body.

        In this case the holes in the garments have two significant displacements from the wound. Meaning, force had to be applied to the garments at the time the kill shot was fired. GZ is toast!
        Hoodies UP!!!
        |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @Lonnie Starr, thanks for that very thoughtful response. I want to be clear that Fogen is provably guilty of murder regardless of whether the garment holes are aligned with the entry wound or not, but I also think we need to be clear about the proof.

        LLMPapa measured a vertical distance of 10.5″ from top of head to top of shoulder. While it’s not clear in the video because you can’t see the top of the ruler, he showed a vertical distance of 17.5″ from top of head to entry wound, as the ME specified. If I understand you correctly, based on these measurements you agree there must be exactly 7″ vertical distance between the top of Trayvon’s shoulder and the entry wound. If so, we are on the same page.

        Based on the GSR tech’s measurement, LLMPapa placed the top of the garment holes 7″ below the shoulder seam, without the mannequin. With the mannequin inside the garments and the top of shoulder aligned with the shoulder seam, he then measured the vertical distance from the top of shoulder to the top of the garment holes at 7″. But you disagree that Trayvon’s garment holes begin 7″ below the top of his shoulder when the garments are not stretched or pulled. IOW, you deduce there’s less than 7″ from top of shoulder to top of garment holes in reality because a body in the garments would take up some of that distance. I believe LLMPapa has shown that to be incorrect.

        Respectfully, I don’t see that you’ve disputed Knox’s math here. I appreciate the dialogue, so let’s try to figure this out. I want to prove Knox wrong.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Xena –
          @Not Angela –

          There’s another fctor here. If Trayvon is standing, there’s moere “play” in the fabric, so nothing’s detaining it (except Zimmerman’s grasp).

          But if Trayvon is pinned to the ground, the weight of his body secures a large part of the shirt (the back of it) to the ground. That part unable to stretch

          Further, the on-ground wrestling and whatever “shimmying” Zimmerman did – dragged Trayvon along, too. So those two shirts were likely out of “perfect alignment” on Trayvon’s body at the time of the fatal shot due to the struggle.

          I don’t see how this could ever be evaluated.

          It seems perfectly clear that Zimmerman did grasp the shirt to detain Trayvon and “position him for the kill.”

          You see him re-create the grasp twice on SPD video. You hear him describe his concern about shooting his own left hand (the grasping one).

          The diagonal pull (which displaced the two shirt bullet holes – matching – away from the chest wound) and the pull toward Zimmerman that created the air space – were two actions within a fraction of a second.

          If the fabric bullet holes are immediately underneath, and concealed by, the memorial button, then I think it was pull/drag/clink on the button and edge it up, FIRE — all within 1.5 seconds. There may have been the perception of resistance (by the button on the shirt) that Zimmerman, in the dark, did not quite comprehend, so he fired WHILE HIS CHANCES WERE GOOD.

          I also believe Zimmerman’s fake “Help! Help!” barking at the end started as he place the gun muzzle to Trayvon’s shirt, pulled, yanked and fired.

          Perhaps Jun can time those last couple of “Help! Helps!” from Zimmerman imediately before the shot.

          Quicker than saying, “You gonna die tonight, mother-fucker … ”

          1.5 seconds is all the time Zimmerman figured he had, to cover his ass by killing Trayvon.

          He knew the cops would be there any second.

          • Xena says:

            First, I don’t believe that GZ did any shimmy. Second, GZ’s voice is heard rough and tough. I don’t hear him say “help” but I do hear him say “fuck.” If he said “help” at anytime, it was to mock Trayvon because that is what the tone of his voice sounds like. The last “help” is faint, as if Trayvon was jerked or turning away, and it is cut short by the gunshot.

            The FBI has the tape to enhance, and I believe they did so, confirmed by BDLR’s statement in court. Since hearing BDLR say that, I’m comfortable not trying to figure out every word that GZ said to Trayvon.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            What I’m adding to the mix of “imponderables” is that the fluidity or elasticity or “stretchability” of the knit sweatshirts would necessarily be different if Trayvon were standing instead of pinned to the ground.

            And if he were pinned to the ground, the stretch would be less, because part of the shirt width (in the back) is prevented from stretching (very much) because it is pinned to the ground.’

            Also, because they were “wrestling” on the ground, the shirts could be skewed. They would not be all neatly placed on Trayvon as if he had just gotten dressed. “Shimmy” or not.

            I concur with you that the “shimmy” biz is made up because Trayvon’s body is WELL off the dogwalk, solely in the grassy area.

            But somewhere during all that wrangling, there was some scooting going on. With Trayvon wearing knit fabrics up top, the seams would not always be placed where they normally would be when Tray was just walking around.

            My earphones don’t give me full comprehension of the ending shouts/screams – not as good as yours. But early in Jenna’s 911 call, when I first hear the yelling, it’s TRayvon yelling “Get oooooffffffff!”

            That tells me that Zimmerman had Trayvon pinned to the ground.

            Because Jeremy was out watching, and because they had to be aware Zimmerman was armed (from Jenna’s HOA activity) and that they knew it was Zimmerman out there I am certain that Jenna and John W6 knew there was going to be shooting.

            So that is the reason they ran upstairs during the struggle BEFORE the shooting, so they would not get caught in the crossfire.

            Nobody ran out there and yelled,
            “George! Don’t shoot!”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          What are you trying so hard to do? The ME report says nothing at all about a distance from the top of the head to the shoulder. The ME report says nothing at all about the distance from the top of the shoulder to the holes in the garments.

          Therefore, each time you reference these points, you are attempting to insert confusion! Why bother? We can all read the ME report and we have!

          Please don’t tell me that you believe that Professor Leatherman, is unable to read the ME report and certify LLMPapa’s work?

          My advice to you is drop this subject or be seen as a troll. You’ve not only been answered directly, the answer has also been posted indirectly as well. You really need to move on, I don’t like having to provide the same answer three or more times. If you do not understand what you’re reading, then you probably shouldn’t be working with it.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        My comment above is incorrect: “With the mannequin inside the garments and the top of shoulder aligned with the shoulder seam, he then measured the vertical distance from the top of shoulder to the top of the garment holes at 7″.”

        I reviewed LLMPapa’s video series again and could not find this measurement anywhere. So Lonnie could very well be correct that an actual shoulder could distort the garment and thereby reduce the vertical distance from top of shoulder to the top of the garment holes. (I don’t imagine it could be 4″, the proposed misalignment, but I can’t rule it out.)

        To my mind, as it stands now, neither Knox nor LLMPapa can be proven correct or incorrect. Both can’t be correct because there is either a misalignment (significant enough to suggest Fogen pulled TM’s garments downward) or there is not.

        What might resolve the issue is if LLMPapa would kindly (please?) measure the vertical distance from the top of the mannequin’s shoulder to the top of the red dot representing the garment holes. If it’s 3″ (as Lonnie and I calculated elsewhere), then there is indeed a 4″ misalignment between the garment holes and the entry wound. If it’s closer to 7″, then there’s no significant misalignment and no evidence that Fogen pulled Trayvon’s garments **downward** when he fired the gun.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          One more time: There is no body in the garments when the ME makes his measurements.

          He gives one distance downward to the hole, from where the shoulder seam meets the neck line/hem. He takes the other measurement from where the arm meets the side seams.

          Next he measures the distance of the wound in the body, by starting at the top of the head and locates it 17.5 inches down. Then he goes to the center chest and measures the offset there.

          Once you put the clothes back on the body, the drape is then automatic. The width and mass of the body takes up what cloth it needs and the rest hangs where it will.

          Now, if the holes are displaced, you have only to measure the displacements. Because you know that when the shot was fired, all three holes had to be in a straight line.

          Please don’t post this again, it’s the same stuff over and over and over.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @Lonnie Starr: “My advice to you is drop this subject or be seen as a troll… You really need to move on, I don’t like having to provide the same answer three or more times…. Please don’t post this again, it’s the same stuff over and over and over.”

        Whoa, podna. With all due respect (lessening by the moment), my advice to you is to check yourself. You engaged ME initially, not the other way around. If the discussion is too hot for you, feel free to step off. But unless I missed your coronation, you will not determine the content of my posts on this site, and I kindly ask you to refrain from trying. This is not the Nuthouse and you are not the chief Cracker. I’m here because intelligent DEBATE takes place here. I’m the one who killed Knox’s first analysis as confirmation bias, remember? I’d like to kill his second analysis without being called a troll. Do you mind?

        You may stop reading at this point if you’re no longer interested in the discussion.

        But if you ARE interested, you will note that I agreed your theory could be correct. It is true, as you suggested, that an actual shoulder *could* reduce the 7″ vertical distance the GSR tech measured on empty garments. I’m trying to confirm or deny it. Would you rather leave it up in the air as a “maybe”? I don’t see how that serves our purposes. You see, if a misalignment exists, it effectively proves that Fogen was not in fear for his life when he shot Trayvon because he was pulling downward on Trayvon’s clothes, and thus his self defense claim is totally obliterated. We all know he’s guilty (I believe of 1st degree murder), but a Seminole County jury may need proof on top of proof on top of proof to convict him in this racially charged case. The misalignment could be that proof. If it doesn’t exist, we need to know that too.

        So here’s where we stand: Knox concluded that Trayvon was on top of Fogen when the shot was fired, denying his own alternative hypothesis from last May that Fogen was pulling Trayvon’s clothes downward when he fired. LLMPapa produced an experiment designed to prove Knox was wrong, that there was indeed a misalignment between the garment holes and the entry wound that proved Fogen was pulling downward on Trayvon’s clothes. Knox attacked LLMPapa’s experiment with an analysis that I felt (and showed) started with a conclusion and worked backward, a serious logical error. Using LLMPapa’s measurements and very simple math, he then produced a second analysis that showed there was no misalignment (17.5″ from top of head to entry wound = 10.5″ from top of head to top of shoulder + 7″ from top of shoulder to both the garment holes and the entry wound). Your theory is the only one I’ve seen that could possibly contradict him on that point. (PiranhaMom’s would put the misalignment in the opposite direction, which is logistically impossible.)

        But that’s all it is at this point, just a theory. You haven’t proven anything or helped to debunk Knox’s conclusion at all. He needs to be proven wrong or he and Fogen get the benefit of the doubt (on this point only, not on the whole case). I think your theory is improbable because the shoulder would have to create the entire misalignment. That is, putting a body in the garments would have to raise the garment holes 4″ (possibly front and back) to produce the 4″ misalignment LLMPapa surmised. But it IS possible, and I’d like to know if it works. If it does, then we have a misalignment that obliterates Fogen’s self defense claim. Alright?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Not Angela Lansbury –

          PiranhaMom checking in here. Need more info from you re the logistically impossible misalignment I referenced. (“PiranhaMom’s would put the misalignment in the opposite direction, which is logistically impossible.”)

          Always possible for any of us (me especially) to make an error and would like to correct same.

          Question: Did you read The Professor’s lesson of September 23, 2012? His research is where the misalignment came to light for us.

          If you have not read it I urge you to do so.

          (You can find this in the September 2012 Archives, “What Zimmerman’s Blood Tells Us … “) A superb piece of research!

          Until you can reply back to me with what I wrote that you differ with, I’ll restate how I have always seen this:

          Zimmerman grabs Trayvon by the shirt fronts, grabbing both the hoodie and the under-sweatshirt together, using his LEFT hand (which is his dominant hand.)

          Whether standing, or on the ground under Zimmerman, Trayvon pulls back – limited, if the position has Trayvon on the ground.

          The purpose is to capture and control Trayvon. If Trayvon is standing, it is to prevent Trayvon from escaping. If Trayvon is on the ground, it is to control Trayvon so he can make the best shot.

          I believe Zimmerman knelt on Trayvon’s arms, so there would not be any flailing of hands to get in Zimmerman’s way as he drew the gun out of its holster on the inside waistband over his right rear hip. He drew right-handed because he had been trained to fire the Kel-Tek PF-9 right handed.

          Zimmerman brought the gun to Trayvon’s torso, with the muzzle placed on the taut, tugged shirts that were thus lifted away from Trayvon’s body, leaving the “airspace” as established by the Medcal Examiner.

          Zimmermen went for Trayvon’s heart, on the left side of Trayvon’s chest, which matched up with Zimmerman’s right hand holding the gun.

          But as Zimmerman reported to Sanford PD, he was afraid of shooting his OTHER hand – the dominant left hand clutching the shirts. So, he moved it away (still with a fistful of shirt jersey).

          Consider this, Trayvon – “Slim” to his friends, was a tall thin kid. He did not have a barrel chest with lots surface to move around on.

          Zimmerman instinctively moved his dominant left clutching hand further to his left (toward Trayvon’s right)and south – a diagonal tug – to avoid shooting his own hand.

          All this took but a second or two. But it dragged the shirts even further out of alignemet, although the shirts were in alignment to themselves, with matching holes.

          After the shot he released his grasp on the shirts, quickly frisked Trayvon, flipped him over, frisked him again (if Trayvon had a gun on him, it would make Zimmerman’s story of self defense more believable.)

          Witnesses saw Zimmerman moving his hands over Trayvon’s back at that point, which I interpret as Zimmerman checking to be sure there was no exit wound.

          (Digging the hollow-point bullet fragments out of the earth would be a sure sign that Zimmerman had Trayvon on the ground, helpless, and drilled him through the heart.) The integrity of the hollow-point, however, held, and the fragments were excavated from Trayvon’s heart and lung by the M. E. as evidence.

          Please let me know what doesn’t work in the above for you, Not Angela.

          If you have a different scenario worked out from the evidence I want to re-evaluate mine. Obviously I don’t want to consider something logistically impossible.

          FYI, you’re dead right (an unfortunate term) when you consider Zimmerman clutching the shirts as control over Trayvon. Of course it is! Zimmerman had both a loaded gun and physical control over his victim.

          No “fear for his life” possible!

          Looking forward to your correction. THANKS!

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @PiranhaMom Nothing in your scenario gives me pause. I agree that’s what happened, but I’m not sure we can prove it all. I didn’t intend to diss your argument regarding misalignment. Frankly, I was fascinated by Lonnie’s and hadn’t given yours as much thought as it deserved. Allow me to revisit it now.

        I don’t think I understood you fully, but the part that’s pertinent to misalignment is this: Trayvon may have been shimmying with his back on the ground, which would in some positions limit the distance his shirts could be pulled in any direction. So far, so good. So if he scooted upwards, for instance, his shoulder seams could potentially move onto his back and drag the rest of his shirts with them. But if Fogen shot him in that position, the garment holes would end up below the entry wound rather than above it when laid flat. OTOH, if he scooted downwards, his shoulder seams would not likely move forward toward his collarbone, but cloth would bunch up above his shoulder. It would create no misalignment if Fogen had shot him in that position. So there’s no way that Trayvon’s shimmying all by itself could produce a misalignment where the garment holes ended up above the entry wound. That’s what I meant by “logistically impossible”. (And no, I have no idea what that means in the light of day.)

        BUT, if Trayvon had shimmied downwards (bunching some cloth above his shoulders) AND Fogen had simply clasped his shirts toward himself without pulling them downward (as he demonstrated in the voice stress video), it is possible that the cloth he held in his left hand could have gathered some of the cloth bunched above Trayvon’s shoulder and created the significant misalignment we’re looking for. That is actually very believable, not “logistically impossible” at all. But as you said, I don’t know how it could be proven.

        The more I think about it, that simple act of grasping Trayvon’s shirts and pulling them **outward** toward himself, if it’s supported by any misalignment at all (ie, much less than 4″), is enough to prove he was not in fear for his life when he fired the gun. It also makes who was on top irrelevant because someone in fear for his life pushes his attacker away from him, not toward him.

        Anyway, I’m not sure any of this is what you meant, but I appreciate you forcing a rethink. I think we’re getting somewhere.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Not Angela –

          It looks like we are on common ground here, including the imponderables. Zimmerman twice pantomimed his grasp of Trayvon’s shirts, which was validated by ballistic evidence.

          Hope you got to read The Professor’s original report on this. Please take the time to do so, because it is riveting.

          There is no question that grasping would take up a quantity of the shirt fabric and cause the mis-alignment of the bullet-holes in the two shirts (matching) vis-a-vis the bullet hole in Trayvon’s torso. The “air space” created by the grasping and pulling is validated by ballistic evidence and GSR (gun shot residue).

          The unknown is what effect the wrangling going on while ON THE GROUND had on the placement of Trayvon’s shirts at that moment.

          Because I believe Zimmerman would only take the chance at the shot if he, himself, would be out of harm’s way, I am convinced he had Trayvon pinned to the ground when he pulled the gun out of the holster and shot Trayvon.

          Thus, the pinning of the back of the shirts to the ground by the weight of Trayvon’s body does add stability to the fabric and lessens the area of fabric available to be stretched. I expect Trayvon was (and this is so pitiful) pressing his back into the earth to distance himself from his killer, so the pressure on the shirts would be strong.

          But all of the “shirt movement” points may be moot, because there is overwhelming evidence that Zimmerman had full control over Trayvon, preventing his escape, SIMPLY BY THE GRASP ON THE SHIRTS – which the airspace and misalignment of the shirt holes to the body wound PROVE. Keep in mind that the State lab established this evidence, not us Trayvonistas.

          Zimmerman also stated to SPD that he was careful to avoid shooting his “other hand.” That’s because it was grasping the sirts in the center – the logical grab point – and he would be shooting right next to that. So he pulled the grasping hand, with shirts still clenched,away.

          If you have time to think, “Geez, I could injure my hand!” you have time to think, “Why am I murdering this guy???”

          So, with full control over “the suspect” Zimmerman had ZERO need to kill him. Trayvon was already captured and was screaming, begging for his life.

          And then that fucker Zimmerman shot him.

          BTW, I didn’t take any offence at all about your prior statement (re logistics) because what we do here is work together to “connect the dots” and it takes this kind of effort – and often re-examining these efforts – to gain the understanding of what happened, how and why.

          We are not a debating team here.
          We are researchers.

          For justice for Trayvon.

          For all kids in future.

          Glad you’re with us.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @PiranhaMom Also, yes I saw Professor’s September article when it appeared. I’ve been parroting the misalignment thesis ever since as part of the proof of Fogen’s guilt. I’ve gone so far as to outline the state’s case against Fogen using this information. That’s why I’m so interested in this dispute between LLMPapa and Knox. I don’t want to lose the misalignment as part of “my” case against Fogen.

        Professor measured a 3.5″ vertical distance between the entry wound and the hole in his t-shirt, very close to the 4″ LLMPapa found on his mannequin using a similar but more precise experiment. But the question remains in either case: what’s the vertical distance between top of shoulder and the garment hole(s) with a body in the clothes? Only if it’s substantially less than 7″ do we have an actual misalignment.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @PiranhaMom Thanks for your kindness. I agree with your scenario except for Fogen’s premeditation. The chilling stillness and plaintiveness of Trayvon’s screams suggests to me Fogen had him at gunpoint the whole time, at least a minute before shooting him. Trayvon was completely defenseless, unable to struggle at all, most likely obeying Fogen’s command to lie still or be shot. Any physical struggle would have been reflected in Trayvon’s screams; you can’t scream like that and wrestle at the same time. With that in mind, I think Fogen shot Trayvon in response to Ofc. Smith’s siren and flashing lights. Fogen had interrogated Trayvon in the minutes prior and knew he was innocent and completely unaware of any burglaries. He had been recorded menacing Trayvon by car and on foot and was now holding this innocent screaming child at gunpoint. When police arrived in the next minute, they would find this child screaming and crying on the ground, and they would come to know how he got there. Fogen was going to prison. No college degree, no SPD job, no law school at night, no judgeship, no escaping his persistent and well-earned sense of failure. In his mind, it was his life or Trayvon’s, and he sacrificed Trayvon for his own mistake. I can’t prove this, but I know in my heart this was a first degree murder.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Not Angela –

          I bet we are not all that far apart on the premeditation issue. You and I agree that the tonal quality of Trayvon’s screams meant that he was close to motionless all that time – unable to move, and too scared to move. He was trapped.

          That is why I don’t think those screams came when the two would be standing up. There would be a continual fluctuation from at least a weak struggle. I hear the screams as both fear for his life and fear of being trapped by this crazy, strong, raging stranger..

          I don’t have the best earphones but I hear Zimmerman’s “Keep quiet!” as Jenna’s 911 call starts. I think that Jeremy, hearing the huf-huf-huff of the early struggle went out on their porch to see what it was, then saw that it was Zimmerman and when Jenna finally succeeded in ordering him in, I heard him say “He warned me to k….”, which tells me he heard Zimmerman’s order to Trayvon but interpreted it as an order to him (Jeremy) to “Keep quiet!”

          I am certain both Jenna (on the HOA) and Jeremy knew Zimmerman was packing heat although I don’t know if Jeremy saw the gun at that moment(don’t know what visual angle he would be to the scene,) because he didn’t burst in and say, “It’s George! With a gun!”

          Of course, Jeremy might have done that seconds earlier, which made Jenna call 911. In any case she was certainly frantic to get them both “hiding upstairs” and out of the range of gunfire – even before the shot rang out.

          I have not ever accepted the theory that Zimmrman unholstered the gun as soon as he got out of the schtruck. There have been long periods for my life when I wore a gun (usually a Colt-style revolver in a holster tied to the right thigh. I would NEVER run with a loaded (or unloaded) gun in my hand, especially in the dark of night, and when it had been raining, and the grassy area would be slippery. Too dangerous if I fell.

          I would never run with a gun in hand chasing an assailant (actually, my concern was more about what could be chasing me: cougars)becaue you put yourself in the danger of your opponent getting the gun away from you and turning it on you. I expect Zimerman had enough training to follow that procedure.

          The little Kel-Tek PF-9 was so very easy for him to access from its holster he didn’t need to get it out in advance. And he had his hand full with the tactical flashlight (though it does had a wrist loop, but if looped on the wrist won’t serve as a baton-type weapon), and it’s annoying as it bounces aropund when you run. And he had that grabbing hand he needed to keep free.

          I think Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon as soon as Tray asked,”Why are you following me?” In a million years I could not believe Tryvon tried to deck Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon’s shirts as soon as he said “What are you doing here?” – then they both stumbled and fell and the struggle was on.

          The struggle was short. I believe that as soon as Zimmerman succeeded in getting into the mount position with Trayvn prone on the ground and Zimmerman kneeling on Trayvon’s arms, he whipped the Kel-Tek out of the holster.

          I expect you are right about the wail of the squad car although I don’t know if a 311 call would merit a lights & siren response. Jenna appears to be the first 911 caller and in less than a minute into her call (42 seconds?) the shot rang out – maybe Dispatch had been alerted to the struggle early in that call? They turned the earlier response that was now enroute into lights & siren? In any case, the night had been rain-drenched and the air filled with humidity so the eerie wail of the police siren would be heard from a distance.

          I earlier wrote about Zimmerman’s motivations for the kill – all the “loser prospect” you cite – plus Zimmerman’s documented rage – and his inability to control it. My thought is that he got the cuts on the back of the head, just a few seconds earlier, knew he was bleeding, and was furious how this deal had gone down. It is on record as to what a bully Zimmerman was, and what is remarkable about all bullies is they shy away from personal injury or combat or contact, and vastly over-rate the pain and injury of what the rest of us would consider a slight inconvenience. And they are quick to BLAME others. So in addition to Zimmerman seeing all his (unrealistric, bombastic) hopes and dreams swirling down the drain, he would be INFURIATED against this kid, for “causing it.”

          I think real rage and hatred went into that killing, and the rage started to bubble up as soon as he was knocked to the ground and the struggle began.

          I do disagree with you that Zuimmerman ever conceded or saw Trayvon as “innocent” or had proved his innocence, because the fury in Zimmerman was so red hot that he could only concentrae on this kid being the “suspect” because Trayvon had CAUSED all the problems which Zimmerman now found himself in. Zimmerman is a narcissist – nobody is any good unless they are serving HIS interests.

          I agree that this killing was premeditated – from the start of the physical encounter, Trayvon’s fate was sealed. The volcano rage in Zimmerman erupted and he would make this kid pay the supreme sacrifice.

          I am, however, extremely pleased that the state decided to go with Murder 2. If they had charged him with Murder 1, it would have gone to the Grand Jury.

          At that time, nbody knew anything about Trayvon, he was not a local kid, and Zimmrman had “connections.” I do not live in Florida but I am assuming the Grand Jury deliberates in private. Who knows what testimony would be given and how the deliberationsw would have played out?

          I am certain that the Grand Jury in that County at that time would have let Zimmerman off – completely free. Made him a hero!

          Therefore I love-love-love the Murder 2 charge, and I believe the State can make it stick.

          Counting on Bernie de la Rionda to bring this one through – with Justice for Trayvon!

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @PiranhaMom No, not far apart at all.

        “I expect you are right about the wail of the squad car although I don’t know if a 311 call would merit a lights & siren response… They turned the earlier response that was now enroute into lights & siren?” Yes, exactly. As soon as Ofc. Smith’s console showed 911 calls coming in about a fight at R@TL, I think he turned his sirens on and burned rubber.

        I agree Fogen pulled the gun only after hitting the ground and in danger of losing Trayvon to the darkness. I completely agree on GZ’s bullying character and the rage that would explode at Trayvon’s resistance, especially with his pharmaceutical cocktail in play. And when I say he knew Trayvon was innocent, I mean he knew he had NOT caught a perp that would get him the SPD brownie points he thought he’d earned when he called 311. He had searched Trayvon and found nothing illicit, he had listened to Trayvon and heard middle-class polish, and he saw in Trayvon a highly credible and terrified witness against him whom police would be rescuing momentarily. I think his rage would’ve led him to smack Trayvon around a bit that night if he’d had time, but it was his calculation of prison time and dreams destroyed that led him to kill.

        I suspect Angela Corey took so long to file charges because she was looking for evidence to support a Murder 1 charge. I would bet prosecutors early on agreed with the scenario we and others have outlined here, but they couldn’t put a case together with the evidence they collected. The other side claims Corey overcharged Fogen, but I think Murder 2 was always the fallback for her. She’d be going for the death penalty in this case if she thought she could get it. I see Bernie as extremely confident at this point, with very good reason. Corey has a like mind in Judge Nelson. Upon conviction, she will pile on every thing she can think of to lock Fogen up for the rest of his natural life. Five years ago, she sentenced a child rapist to three consecutive life terms. Fogen is toast.

  45. Bill Taylor says:

    TY for providing such clear and obvious physical FACTS of this case in a way the any person can see with their own eyes.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I second that, Bill.

      LLMPapa, thank you for a Part IV that truly drives it on home.

      As for the Professor’s under/below inquiry, I appreciate your candor in responding “who knows?” And that’s a huge problem.You may have been too generous in suggesting that an officer of the law (especially at the Sanford P.D.) would be literate enough to discern the difference. Maybe I’ve pored over too many sloppy reports where some cops were hard pressed to string six words together without screwing up five.

      Again, thanks for your insightful presentation.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for all you are doing, LLMPapa. It is certainly having a great impact!

  46. Great vid, Papa!

    When Ayala said the entrance wound was “under” the button, did he mean it was beneath the button, as in the button was covering the wound, or did he mean “below” the button, as in its position relative to the button higher up on the sweatshirt?

    I am picturing GZ using the muzzle of the gun to lift the button, as in prying it upward (perhaps accidentally) as he pulled the sweatshirt down. I believe this would be an even more damning scenario.

    Sure would be nice to know if the puncture marks from the pinning mechanism on the back of the button are still visible in the fabric of the hoodie.

    Once again, terrific job.

    • LLMPapa says:

      When Ayala said the entrance wound was “under” the button, did he mean it was beneath the button, as in the button was covering the wound, or did he mean “below” the button, as in its position relative to the button higher up on the sweatshirt?

      Thank You, Professor.

      As to the above, who knows? I thought about what you’re asking and finally decided I would prefer to believe an officer of the law was literate enough to have used the word “below” as opposed to “under” in the scenario you describe.

      I’m picturing George Zimmerman grabbing the front of the hoodie to restrain Trayvon from fleeing, and in doing so, displaced and stretched the garments downward to create the misalignment of the holes, AND allowed the gunshot wound to be under the button when released to spring back upward.

      Whether Trayvon was standing, or on his back, it’s the ONLY positioning and action that I can see to allow ALL the simultaneous gunshot qualifications contained in the evidence.

      -It accounts for the distance between clothing and skin for contact shot vs intermediate.

      -It accounts for the misalignment of the bullet holes.

      -It accounts for the gunshot wound being under the button.

      -It allows unimpeded access for a direct, front to rear bullet trajectory.

      • elcymoo says:

        LLMPapa says:
        March 8, 2013 at 7:02 pm

        Whether Trayvon was standing, or on his back, it’s the ONLY positioning and action that I can see to allow ALL the simultaneous gunshot qualifications contained in the evidence.


        I’ve thought about this a lot, and while I can see that it would account for the trajectory if GZ was on top of Trayvon, IF the injury to the nose was caused by the gun’s recoil, as some of us have speculated, I don’t see how there wouldn’t be blood spatters on Trayvon’s hoodie if that were the case.

        It leads me to lean toward the theory that the two of them must have been standing, at least for a few seconds right at the end.

      • lady2soothe says:

        Excellent deduction as always. Awesome!

      • SpecialladyT says:

        I also have the theory of the two of them standing and fogen tugging on Trayvon sweatshirt to detain him.

        It is my understanding, if I remember correctly, that there was only GSR on fogen’s rear shoulder and if Trayvon was on top of fogen the GSR would have exploded all over his clothing.


      • PC says:

        Believe me when i tell you i am one of your biggest fans.
        But i must ask you to demonstrate another scenario before Knox does it and debunks your theory.

        Saturate the hoody, go buy a 23.5 ounce can of arizona (any Flavor). It weighs nearly 2 pounds. Wear the hoody, with the pin on and the full arizona can in the front pouch pocket for a distance of a mile or so and jog walk and run and document how far the can stretches the hoody downward. I think that may be your answer. I hope i am wrong, i want nothing more than for your scenario to be correct but until the can scenario is played out there will always be questions.

        Thank you, PC.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:


        The can of juice would need to be inside BOTH garments for that scenario to work because the holes in both garments were aligned. IOW, the can could only stretch the hoodie if it were carried in the hoodie pocket, and in that case the bullet holes through the garments would be misaligned.

      • KA says:

        I had the same thoughts as PC, but wow, NotAL, you nailed it and answered that consideration!.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Or on their knees. W18 was watching when the shot was fired. If they were standing, I think she would’ve seen that.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Felicitations, congratulations, and hero-worship from all of us!

        How thankful I am that you included the shot of Zimmerman’s grasping hand!

        From California, land of earthquakes, let me offer this explanation of how the shot could have been made through the sweatshirts, right underneath (not “below”)the button.

        Think: tectonic plates –

        When the point of the gun barrel encountered the button on the shirt being dragged underneath it, the button rode up at an angle – just the way two tectonic plates ride over/under each other, creating an earthquake.

        As we see in your video, Zimmerman is grasping Trayvon to detain him, pulling the fabric of the shirts OUTWARD and AWAY from Trayvon’s torso, creating te airspace that allows the “intermediate” distnce shot.

        Simultaneous to his placing the gun barrel on the surface of the stretched shirts, Zimmerman realizes the dangerous proxity to his own grasping hand, and tugs the fabric down and to the side – sliding the fabric under the gun barrel which he is keeping centered on the most vulnerable area of Trayvon’s chest.

        Fabric moves, barrel stays.

        As the gun barrel hits the edge of the lightweight, big flat button, the button rises at an angle, tilting up, as Zimmeman fires through the fabric. In other words, the fabric is being drawn down and to Trayvon’s right (“screen left”) just enough to protect Zimmerman’s hand by getting it out of the way. The button, being pinned, naturally rides with the fabric on the same diagonal journey. When the gun barrel, pressed to the taut fabric, interescts with the button coming its way, it stays firm into the fabric, as the button tilts up.

        Zimmerman fires.

        Did the M.E. examine the UNDERSIDE of the button for gun shot residue?

        FYI, the speck of GSR on Zimmerman’s upper sleeve likely comes from the officer Zimmerman handed the gun to, who later laid a fatherly hand on Z’s shoulder or grasped Z’s bicep in a “come along” motion toward the SPD squad car. (GSR on gun that was then handled by cop, transferred by cop to upper portion of Z’s jacket sleeve.)

        I have been waiting for fiber analysis (ordered the same time as the blood/DNA analysis but not yet released) before totally locking onto the Trayvon on the ground, Zimmerman on top scenario.

        This re-creation, however (both victim and killer vertical) has always struck me as the easiest way for the jury – new to all the evidence without the months of rumination we’ve all had – this re-creation ff the death shot is easiest to comprehend, and is the one tht will lock the jury into “Guilty!”

        A fine, fine piece of work, sir.

        Thank you.


        • P-mom said,

          As we see in your video, Zimmerman is grasping Trayvon to detain him, pulling the fabric of the shirts OUTWARD and AWAY from Trayvon’s torso, creating te airspace that allows the “intermediate” distnce shot.

          Simultaneous to his placing the gun barrel on the surface of the stretched shirts, Zimmerman realizes the dangerous proxity to his own grasping hand, and tugs the fabric down and to the side – sliding the fabric under the gun barrel which he is keeping centered on the most vulnerable area of Trayvon’s chest.

          Fabric moves, barrel stays.

          As the gun barrel hits the edge of the lightweight, big flat button, the button rises at an angle, tilting up, as Zimmeman fires through the fabric. In other words, the fabric is being drawn down and to Trayvon’s right (“screen left”) just enough to protect Zimmerman’s hand by getting it out of the way. The button, being pinned, naturally rides with the fabric on the same diagonal journey. When the gun barrel, pressed to the taut fabric, interescts with the button coming its way, it stays firm into the fabric, as the button tilts up.

          Zimmerman fires.

          That’s exactly the way I visualized the shooting while watching Papa’s video. You explained it so much better than I did. Thanks.

          Devastating evidence of murder, if the hole in the fabric caused by the shot was concealed by the pin that flopped back down covering the hole after the shot.

          Also, I think you may have hit the jackpot with this observation:

          FYI, the speck of GSR on Zimmerman’s upper sleeve likely comes from the officer Zimmerman handed the gun to, who later laid a fatherly hand on Z’s shoulder or grasped Z’s bicep in a “come along” motion toward the SPD squad car. (GSR on gun that was then handled by cop, transferred by cop to upper portion of Z’s jacket sleeve.)

      • Rachael says:

        Pmom, as one from Washington where we have earthquakes too, I agree.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think he grabbed more material in his hand. That would account for the sideway misalignment. The video shows me that the muzzle was positioned after he pulled the clothes down.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @Not Angela Lansbury
        But if he had the can in the pocket, you would think the holes in the shirts would not be alligned.
        That soda can has been bothering me. Livingston said she removed it from the pocket, and it was not in the plastic bag.

        Raimondo said he could feel the can in the pocket, but he did not remove it.

        McCoy said she was watching Raimondo giving cpr, and she saw the can on the grass.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I was wondering if you could do a test. I would like to know if the holes in the sweaters are still aligned, if there is a soda can in the pocket of the hoody.

      • leander22 says:

        I’m picturing George Zimmerman grabbing the front of the hoodie to restrain Trayvon from fleeing, and in doing so, displaced and stretched the garments downward to create the misalignment of the holes, AND allowed the gunshot wound to be under the button when released to spring back upward.

        LLMPapa, I have to admit that I seem to have problems to grasp matters that are easily to understand visually if they are expressed in words sometimes. One of my weakest spots.

        In any case, something tells me I do not understand you here. No matter how many times I read it. gunshot wound = holes in garments?

        Ok, he pulls both sweater and t-shirt down, which results in the holes on his garments being in the same place. I can see this is possible with the two, but I somehow see the button react in a not quite neatly parallel way. (as described below with the help of tectonic plates). For whatever reason I see it “spring up”, or not staying in place parallel to the clothes. So yes, the shot could be underneath.

        And now concerning the problem I have above. Are you suggesting the wound is below the button or the holes of the shot are below it? Ayala surely did not measure things, he may have simply assumed that shot and shot holes in shirt where exactly in the same place. (hmmm? If you do CPR wouldn’t you take of the shirt too, to see where exactly the wound is? I have no idea. Maybe you don’t)

        See my problem. If the hole is below the button, you can’t be suggesting once released it is on top of the gunshot wound too.

        Can you explain where I do not get what you are trying to say. Maybe it would help other slow learners. 😉

        Amsterdam, I whom am I to believe about the time Stacie McCoy arrived? Her statements, the crime scene contamination log has not time for her, if I recall correctly, and doesn’t she order it, or the dispatch logs in discovery 7?

      • Erica says:

        Now if there was gunshot residue on gorgens shoulder, that would have to change Papas video because he would have to add #6…residue on his shoulder to the equation and make all that fit into the other 5 factors that he laid out. Do you have a link for the “shoulder gundshot residue”?

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        What LLMPapa is showing in his video is how the holes in the sweaters could end up under the button not below the button on the hoody. It is possible Ayala removed the button or looked underneath it and saw the hole there.

        Ofc. Robertson was the person responsible for the contamination log. He arrived at 7:26:51. According to Ofc Wagner he and Robertson first secured the scene with tape, before he told Robertson to start the contamination log. It looks like Robertson added the people who were already at the scene, without a log time.

        McCoy didn’t write her narrative until 3/9. She could be wrong. She is mentioned by other officers for giving assistance to Raimondo in giving CPR to Trayvon. So I don’t doubt she was there at that time.

        I still want to know about the soda can. It has allways bothered me that the bag was on the sidewalk, while the can was in Trayvon’s pocket.

      • leander22 says:

        thanks, Amsterdam, images are more easy to understand. I immediately regretted to have posted the question. I simply couldn’t get the sentence out of my head.

        I have watched it twice again by now. Now the contents settled. 😉

      • xy11xy says:

        Did you insert the pin through the hoodie only, or both garments?

      • xy11xy says:


        …and BINGO was his name… B- I -N- G-O B- I -N- G-O….!

        W18 was the only witness – as I recall – who watched the two figures at length. She seems to have watched 2 figures ON THE GROUND from the time they struggled from side to side, yelped/screamed and one of the figures fired a shot.

        She did not say the figures were standing. She said no one stood until AFTER she heard the shot, where one person was up and left a body laying on the ground.

        The shot was fired while Trayvon and George were prone.!

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        @amsterdam1234: “But if he had the can in the pocket, you would think the holes in the shirts would not be alligned.”

        I wouldn’t expect a can of soda to misalign the shirts. A concrete block perhaps, but not a can of soda. There’s just not enough weight there IMO.

    • Malisha says:

      I took it to mean that the bullet hole in the hoodie was lower on the garment than the memorial button. I didn’t take it to mean that the bullet hole was on the garment right under where the pin was pinned. It works if either Fogen is standing and pulling on the garments while he aims at Trayvon’s heart and fires, or if he is leaning OVER prone Trayvon and pulling on the garments while he aims at Trayvon’s heart and fires. It does NOT work if he is aiming UP from a prone position on his back with Trayvon leaning over HIM with one hand still on his bloody face and the other trying to go down his chest (where it gets “pinched”) to grab “THE” gun while threatening, “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker.” It does not work that way for three reasons:

      1. Fogen cannot get the gun into position to shoot straight in at no angle;

      2. Fogen cannot put a few inches between the garments and the chest while he is on his back on the ground leveraging “THE” gun from his right hip to aim at Trayvon’s heart; and

      3. Fogen cannot pull the garments down with the left hand and shoot with the right from that angle, and if he just shoots without pulling the garments down, the bullet enters the garments way BELOW the entry on the chest wall, not above it. It enters the part of the garments covering the abdomen, not covering the chest.

    • leander22 says:

      Forget it LLMPapa, I simply went back to visuals and/or your video.

      very good work.

    • FactsFirst says:

      Great Video LLMpapa!!! BRAVO! I believe the two were standing also.. The only person who fell that night was forgen who ran into some trees lost his footing, slipped, and bumped his head on something (I believe it was one of those square things on the grass between the “T” and the tree) where justin seen a man laying on the ground. That enraged fogen, so he hawked Trayvon down, grabbed him, Trayvon started screaming and fogen shot him for it.. end of story.. It don’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out..

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Actually we can see the location of the button in the 711 video.

    • Nef05 says:

      I am picturing GZ using the muzzle of the gun to lift the button, as in prying it upward (perhaps accidentally) as he pulled the sweatshirt down. I believe this would be an even more damning scenario.

      I’ve been looking at this, having just done recent research inthe GSR/Trace/ballistics reports, on the Wolfinger issue. I don’t see the button listed,tested or reported on (other than as a personal possession – dump one pg.7 reported as found in victim’s pockets) anywhere.Yet, we know fogen mentions it in the NEN call as being worn by Trayvon. The only VCMEO submission regarding the tems listed with the button(DMS-10) are two swabs of blood from the skittles bag(also DMS-10) and from the flashlight (DSM-6) (first dump, pgs 11 and 24).

      Note: Flashlight with key at the “T” is designated DMS – 2. Tactical flashlight is DMS – 6.

      For a button that close to a bullet wound, wouldn’t testing be as automatic as the shirt it was attached to? Even if there was no GSR for some reason, maybe there was a “trace” of gun oil or something, from possible “contact” – the thing is, I can’t even find anywhere it was even tested. I’ve researched it, extensively and I can’t find it anywhere. Maybe I’ve overlooked it but the evidence submissions, GSR and Trace reports are pretty much grouped together in the dump, though I did go through the rest to be thorough.

      Is it possible that SPD/SFD removed the button to administer to a GSW, directly below the button, but neglected to account and maintain what evidence it may have had? Why would “skittles” found in the same pocket and given the same evidenciary designation (DMS – 10) be tested and the photo pin not tested? Who was the SPD or SFD personel who would remove soemthing so close to the fatal wound of a homicide victim, yet not make the slightest effort to preserve it, allowing it to be included a “group” of evidence that was found where the pin clearly did not originate, since they were the one’s who moved it from it’s position on Trayvon’s shirt?

      Crime scene photo’s released at trial, per Sunshine Law Exemption release, probably won’t help, if the button was removed for life-saving procedures, it would have been removed prior to photos. And now, anything useful is probably gone, just like the opportunity to ask fogen to submit to a tox screen sample.

      • Unless the button was released to Trayvon’s parents, which I doubt, it’s still secured in a police evidence unit (FDLE or SPD) or the ME’s evidence unit and available for testing.

        Difficult for me to imagine that the button does not have some readily observable forensic value.

        On the other hand, it might still be in the pocket of the sweatshirt, untouched.

        My first instinct when I see something potentially important like this is to assume it has been tested, but the results have been withheld from the public because they are so devastating to the defense. That is, the defense has them, but not the public.

        I suspect there may be a special category of that type of evidence that will be released to the public at the last possible minute. We’re still waiting for the fiber evidence, for example, and the GPS evidence. Hard to imagine that all testing has not been completed yet.

        This is just an educated guess, so I could be wrong.

      • Nef05 says:

        Hmmm, that would explain a lot. The pin was vouchered by both SPD and VCMEO. I really like that devastating to the defense possibility. I think we should throw the enhanced 2 person voiced 911 call in there.

        We’ve known there was one since May. We’ve known literally which one it is, since Dec. Yet, it hasn’t been released in discovery, nor has O’Mara filed one of his “many, splendored motions” for it. Seems like that would have been something he’d want to be right on top of, unless he already is.

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