Zimmerman: Crime Scene Investigation

Criminal trials have changed dramatically since I tried my first case in Seattle Municipal Court in July, 1977. With the exception of an occasional murder trial, most cases back in those days did not involve forensics.

I also recall that the detectives who worked homicides and assaults appeared to have little concern about introducing trace evidence and foreign substances into a crime scene by tracking it in on their shoes or boots. They were permitted to smoke while collecting evidence and thought nothing of leaving their cigarette butts at the crime scene. I was never certain whether the hairs they collected at the crime scene were there before they arrived or whether they unintentionally introduced them into the environment at the crime scene via shedding after they arrived.

I hate to admit it, but all of the lawyers I knew back then, including myself, were scared to death of math and science. For example, most of us decided to go to law school because we wanted to earn graduate degrees. We decided on law school because we had convinced ourselves that we could not make it through any graduate degree program that involved math or science.

Like most lawyers, I assumed that forensic scientists were basically honest and I did not question or challenge their assumptions and opinions. Instead, I accepted their opinions as unassailable and developed trial strategies to work around them.

I began to question the validity of my irrational fear of math and science in the early 80s around the same time that scattered reports of forensic fraud started appearing in the news. I remember reading about Dr.Jeffrey’s efforts in England to apply laboratory methodologies to extract human DNA from biological evidence recovered at crime scenes. Although promising, the major problem with his method, which was called RFLP testing, was that it required larger amounts of pristine DNA than were typically recovered at crime scenes.

A few years later, I read about a new method of typing DNA called PCR testing that was developed by Dr. Kari Mullis. His method mimicked the process of cell division by creating millions of copies of targeted sequences of DNA that could easily be typed thereby eliminating the need to recover large biological samples from crime scenes. In fact, the method was so sensitive, simple, and effective that it could create enough copies to accurately type the DNA obtained from a few cells.

I soon realized that PCR’s unique ability to accurately type vanishingly small quantities of human DNA was also its greatest weakness because it would also create millions of copies of DNA from another human source inadvertently and accidentally introduced into a crime scene by a detective collecting evidence, or into the testing process in the lab by a laboratory analyst. I recall that I was stunned by the possibilities.

My comfortable views regarding how to try cases was shattered and from that time forward I made it my business to learn all that I could about forensic science and to use that knowledge trying cases.

That brings me to today’s subject for discussion. I have noticed y’all discussing the crime scene investigation conducted by the Sanford Police Department and wondering to what extent, if at all, they screwed it up. Assuming they did, the next question should be whether their screw-ups were material? In other words, will their screw-ups affect the outcome of the case?

To aid you in evaluating the efforts of the Sanford Police Department, I am going to turn you on to a treasure trove of resources that I am sure you will want to bookmark and explore in the future.

Follow this link to learn more more about crime scene investigations.

153 Responses to Zimmerman: Crime Scene Investigation

  1. rachael says:


  2. CherokeeNative says:

    I agree with the premise that the position of a NHW volunteer is an ongoing commitment – you don’t serve the position sometimes and not at other times like you would if it were employed as a security guard. That being the case, I also agree that once GZ placed the NEN call and reported his suspicious character, he had two choices which would have been entirely appropriate, stay in the damn truck and await LE, or carryon by proceeding to Target. By following Trayvon to the point that the kid felt the need to run (or skip) away from GZ, with or without his weapon, was outside the scope of what is allowed by the NHW rules or a concerned renter. By pursuing GZ with a concealed weapon, GZ stepped outside his role of a concerned renter or NHW volunteer and took on the role of a vigilante / aggressor and I have yet to see any evidence that changed or reversed that role.

  3. Patricia says:

    @ Ada — “Slap Shot” en Canadien — sacre bleu, formidable!

  4. PYorck says:

    This story that happend around here is an interesting example of what can go wrong when you have too much blind faith in DNA evidence.


    • rachael says:

      LOL – you beat me to it. I was just coming to post this.

    • Patricia says:

      So far, so good, Suth’n Gal – Dr. Phil grasps our two concerns: justice for Trayvon, and protection against fatal profiling of our youth.

      (Slovenly police work and Chief Lee’s leadership at SPD is a separate issue beside these two)

      This clip made me realize that Mark Osterman looks like Porky Pig!(Not exactly the “image of authority” that Zimmerman aspired to.)

      I see he touted the “lie detector test” – so desperate to refurbish Zimmerman’s image that he would mislead the public.

      Figures …

      • Xena says:

        The one thing that Osterman conveniently omits is that according to GZ, he shimmied his head off the sidewalk to the grass. How is it then possible that he would use the head bashing on the sidewalk to justify why he was afraid that Trayvon would kill him — by continuing to bash his head on the sidewalk? Also, inconsistent with that reason is GZ saying that he “felt” Trayvon was going for the gun? So why did he fear for his life? Was it the head bashing, or going for the gun?

        Dr. Phil is a psychologist, and most are of the belief that before anyone can seek to find truth about themselves, they must first take responsibility for their actions. In that clip, Dr. Phil also spoke with concern about the profiling of young AA men if this case goes silent. His words that it would be “open season” spoke volumes.

      • jd says:

        Pardon me if I sound like a broken record but once again i want to point out that the “voice stress test” was simply a ruse to get GZ to tell his tale again to a fresh investigator. The test itself is worthless, and cannot be used in court. They acted like “he passed it” in order to keep him talking. There is no data to interpret with such a test, or if there is it’s useless anyway.

        If you notice, they also put him in a room waiting for no real reason for a LONG time so he would talk to break the silence and tension as well. These are all standard investigative techniques, and they worked well against George.

        The entire SPD handling of GZ can be describes as good cop/good cop with a lot of “give him enough rope.” He certainly hung himself.

        During this run up to the “test” GZ made more inconsistent and contradictory statements and in general exposed his own lies to scrutiny. All of this “can and will be used against him in a court of law.”

        • Patricia says:

          jd, you know that about the “lie detector test” and I know that about the “lie detector test,” and every student on this site knows that about “the lie detector test” … I am simply reporting the propaganda swill that Mark Osterman will be spewing on the upcoming Dr. Phil show because it was IN THE PROMO CLIP that Dr. Phil featured.

          None of us here are taken in by that garbage. You gave a wonderfully amplified description of the psychological challenges investigators set up for interviewees. I get it, my friend. We all get it. We’ve all gotten it since the document dump.

          But …. does the public get it? Not unless Dr. Phil challenged him (I doubt it) and the segment has already been shot.

          For those who did not see the promo clip today, I am simply alerting them to the fact that it’s going to be in the show – another example of the propganda being waged to try to sanitize and rehabilitate Zimmerman’s reputation.

          Unfortunately for the truth, Dr. Phil did not have you on the show as a “foil” for Osterman’s propaganda and I expect no police agency would allow one of their investigators on the show unless they had “final cut”” (editing rights) which the show would never grant.

          It doesn’t look like Dr. Phil is going to be gentle with Mark Osterman (but one never knows). Maybe to Osterman getting raked over the coals on network TV is worth it if he can get this stinking pile of bull droppings out over the airwaves: “George passed the lie detector test.”

          As we know, there’s no law against misleading the public.
          We just had two political conventions.

          It’s a First Amendment Right.

  5. Dennis says:

    Frederick, I myself learned a lot about forensics while studying the Amanda Knox trial. Forensic evidence must be collected correctly using strict procedures. There are videos online that show the Perugia forensic team collecting evidence, and I have to tell you that it is the most disturbing thing I have ever seen. Here are a few of the terrible mistakes they made:

    *Not changing foot covers when entering a new room
    *Wiping multiple areas with the same swab
    *Handling evidence with their hands, gloves very dirty

    • No point in wearing the same foot covers from room to room and wiping multiple areas with the same swab and wearing the same gloves.

      If that’s what they were going to do, they might as well not have bothered.

      If they lacked access to replacements, the should have waited to start until they were available.

      • Dennis says:

        I have recently heard that you were involved with the Idaho Innocence Project, is that true? That would be pretty cool if you were. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Greg Hampikian.

        • Yes, Greg and I created and organized the project when I was at the University of Idaho College of Law in Moscow and he was at Boise State University in Boise. I wasn’t around very long after we got it up and running because I moved to Kentucky to start a new teaching position and the law school in Idaho decided to drop out of the project after I left.

          I’m sure the program is in good hands with Greg running it.

  6. TM says:

    Digger, I agree with Dave @ 11:42 am

  7. I am well aware that George Zimmerman had a concealed carry permit and had a right to carry a concealed weapon. Once he got out of his vehicle and pursued Trayvon, the firearm should have been left secured in his vehicle. He was going against the rules and regulations of neighborhood watch. By calling the non-emerg 911 and reporting a suspicous person, he was acting in the capacity of Neighborhood Watch. He was told a patrol car would be dispatched. That should have been the end of it. A person who volunteers is always on the lookout for anything suspicious in their neighborhood.

  8. Vicky says:

    Rachael, I hope I didn’t come across as argumentative. Didn’t mean to. It just gripes me that GZ & his defenders act like NHW is some on again, off again commitment (I know you aren’t a GZ defender). If he wasn’t acting in that capacity, he should have placed his call, and then headed on to Target. He had done his civic duty. I agree it was his right the carry his weapon, but once he placed that non emergency call, knew LE was on their way and then chose to leave the safety of his car, he accepted a heightened responsibility as a gun owner carrying a concealed weapon. To claim he subsequently forgot about his gun is a bunch of bull and if he felt he needed it to safely leave his vehicle, then he should have remained in his vehicle. What kind of idiot anticipates the potential for violence and then goes looking for it?

    • Patricia says:

      Vicky, if GZ was legitimately observing a suspicious stranger “casing the joint” then GZ first should have ID’d himself as Neighborhood Watch to 311. He concealed that.

      He could have also said –

      “He’s running – through a back alley – towards the back entrance. Why don’t I drive to the back entrance and meet the officer there?”

  9. Vicky says:

    @rachael – IMO, whether he was “officially” on patrol that evening is a non issue. As the person who organized the watch, George Zimmerman was aware of two things, 1. The procedures that are to be used. 2. That member communities/blocks/neighborhoods are supposed to be on “alert” at all times. One doesn’t take the day off from NHW, it is an approach to improving community safety and reducing crime.

    • rachael says:

      I am not disagreeing with you Vicky and I understand that whether he was officially on patrol or not, he has certain obligations. I was responding ONLY to the fact that MSF said: “In the capacity of NW, you do not pack a firearm.” GZ had a license to carry a concealed weapon. That is (unfortunately) his right and he (unfortunately) was legal with respect to that because he “said” he was not in his NW capacity – even though he did say he carried it even when on watch, which was wrong for him to do. Because he has a license to carry though, it is not wrong for him to carry.

      If you read my entire post, I pointed only to that and said I agreed with the rest.

      If you are saying that because he is a neighbor watch person, therefore he can never carry a gun, I would have to say you are (unfortunately) wrong.

      Again, to make it VERY clear however, he was wrong in everything else, NW or not. His only obligation as a citizen or a NW was to call and report. He did not stop there, regardless if he was no NW or not.

  10. Malisha says:

    George Zimmerman did not “take the law into his own hands.”

    There was NO LAW against Trayvon Martin continuing to live, that night.

    George Zimmerman was not preventing any crime that night; he was committing one.

    He not only did not “take the law into his own hands,” he stomped on the law with both feet!

  11. itsallboutmeash says:


    What do you make of the sweatshirts of Trayvon’s not being submitted for testing until the 20th of march and when they were the outer one was still damp/wet. Pg 204 and pg 211 http://axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Documents_given_to_the_Defendant_R.pdf

  12. Digger says:

    What do you believe can be the most damning “physical” evidence the prosecution will use to convict George Zimmerman of Murder #2. Thanks

    • Tzar says:

      Zimmerman’s mouth

    • Digger~~hope you accept my penny’s worth while waiting for the Prof to comes aboard.

      Zimmerman should not have left the security of his vehicle and pursued Trayvon.
      He had two occasions to identify himself as a NW to Trayvon but did not.
      In the capacity of NW, you do not pack a firearm.
      Zimmerman took the law into his own hands.

      • rachael says:

        He was supposedly not working that night in the capacity of a NW person – he was on his way to Target and he always carries, except for to work, even though this night he “forgot” he had his gun until he remembered to use it.

        My point being, he was not on NW that night, but I agree with everything else you said.

        A gun license is not a license to take the law into your own hands.

      • Digger says:

        Oh that’s alright mainstreamfair, the professor probably can’t think of anything. lol

    • Dave says:

      I’m not a professor (but I do look like one). I don’t disagree with Tzar and mainstreetfair but the most damning physical evidence has to be the series of bullet holes through Trayvon’s two sweatshirts and straight into his chest to the heart and lungs. O’Mara will have a hell of a time convincing anyone that those holes were the result of anything other than a deliberately aimed shot.

      • Dave says:

        ..a deliberately aimed shot taken at arms length into the body of an unarmed, harmless kid who was being physically restrained by the shooter.

      • Patricia says:

        @Dave – you’re right!

        The trajectory of the bullet … then work back.

        The shirts.

        The absence of Zimmerman blood/DNA on Trayvon’s hands/wristbands of his shirt.

        Witnesses to Zimmerman getting up off Trayvon’s body.

        “Are you chasing him? Yeah.”
        “These assholes, they always get away.”

        Trayvon unarmed with no arrest record.

        Zimmerman history of recorded calls reporting black suspects. Zimmerman history of rage & violence

        The motivation ….

        The lies.

      • longtimegeek says:

        Here are my two cents. GZ didn’t suffer anything close to potentially life threatening injuries, as shown by GZ and TM “physical” evidence. It shows that in the minute that TM had to “fight” GZ, he didn’t accomplish something that would have made an MMA fighter proud, not even close.

        Next, during this minute, it isn’t reasonable to believe that TM somehow reached for GZ’s gun in a way that threatened GZ’s life, and then the 28 year-old man with the concealed weapons permit training was the one who ended up making a perfect shot to kill a 17 year-old unarmed boy.

        • Patricia says:

          ” … and then the 28 year-old man with the concealed weapons permit training was the one who ended up making a perfect shot to kill a 17 year-old unarmed boy.”

          Tears in my eyes, LongTime.

          For Trayvon.

          For America.

      • and then the 28 year-old man with the concealed weapons permit training was the one who ended up making a perfect shot to kill a 17 year-old unarmed boy.”

        Tears in my eyes

        Tears in my eyes too. It’s so wrong…

      • longtimegeek says:

        GZ was trained in self-defense laws and in protecting his gun. He was also trained in neighborhood watch. He knew not to follow TM, and he knew not to follow TM with a gun. But, he followed him anyway. Once he decided to follow him, he couldn’t stop. While on foot, as he was getting further and further away from his truck, he couldn’t stop. He had to follow him. He had to shoot him (GZ’s words). He has no regrets about leaving his truck, taking his gun with him, getting further and further away from his truck, following TM, or killing TM. He has no regrets about any of it, not one minute of it, not even the last minute of it.

        The trigger didn’t have GZ’s DNA. Is this an indication of consciousness of guilt?

        ::tears in my eyes too::

    • Xena says:

      @Digger. Gilbreath said it at the bond hearing when asked what evidence the State has to support their case. He said;
      “We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements. We have the bullet casing, and we had Mr. Martin’s body.”

      The two most damning “physical” evidences for the prosecution to use to convict GZ involves the bullet casing, (where it was found), where Trayvon’s body was found, and all forensic findings involving Trayvon’s body.

  13. itsallboutmeash says:

    I would like to add to my above post on page 137 the Medical Examiner writes it out that Trayvon had on a sweatshirt and a T-shirt..

  14. itsallboutmeash says:

    In the first discovery document release the Medical Examiner list the belongings of Trayvon’s and on 2 different pages they call the sweatshirt Trayvon had on under the hoodie a T-shirt. They have two options, undershirt and T-shirt and as evidenced by them writing in hoodie for the outer shirt they can write in what they want on that form. In other evidence documents we see the shirt underneath is really a sweatshirt, and called a sweatshirt. Could this be a problem if the defense ask to see that T-shirt? Pg. 140 and 141. http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

  15. Patricia says:

    @ Xena, Fauxmccoy —

    This is “out of thread” but I can’t let it go, and it took some back-tracking to locate it again – sorry.

    On September 3 Xena posted the link to the interview of father Robert Zimmerman with State law enforcement:

    “Not unlike papi Z waltzing into the SA’s office on 19 March to ask how the investigation was progressing (pg 68 of 284)”

    “I was shocked by Papa Zim’s suggestions. Just posted the taped interview:


    Not only is the guy an idiot ( Investigator Jim Rick of the State Attorney’s Office and Agent Dale Crosby of FDLE seem to be maintaining a steely response to Papa Zim – likely to help from laughing out loud) – but as you would anticipate, he goes on a big whining tour of what this is doing to Clan Zimmerman — and can’t they all just make this go away? (By some big announcement to the media.)

    But here’s Robert Zimmerman’s statement that I find so shocking:
    at 2:10 into the recording:

    “I know George Zimmerman; if several Asians had broken in places there, and he saw an Asian walking around, he’d probably say, ‘Well, wait a minute, I recognize most of the people who live here, and I don’t recognize that person … ‘ ”

    Good Lord, is this some special corrupt breed of RACIAL PROFILERS that make up this whole damned family? And they think it’s OK?

    Like – “I saw some white guy accused of a crime … BAMBAMBAM! let’s take out the next white guy. Hey – there’s some Cuban accused of a crime – and that guy over there looks Cuban …BAMBAMBAMBAM! well, that’s one less Cuban suspect. A black guy? Yeah, I heard some black guys were suspects – hey – look – a black guy over there – BAMBAMBAMBAM! well, that gets rid of another potential suspect, Geez, I’m really having a good day – holy cow! look in that mirror! It’s a Hispanic! BAMBAMBAMBAM/CRASH! CRASH! CRASH! SSSSPLINTER …

    If George Zimmerman gets loose, there’s not a one of us who will be safe. And not another human being left on this earth.

    I hope the Feds listen to this tape.

    Magistrate Robert Zimmerman just announced to the whole world that RACIAL PROFILING is perfectly OK in his family, epecially by his son.


    • Xena says:

      @Patricia. Papa Zim attempted to sanitize GZ’s profiling. It is interesting that he didn’t say “White” or “Latino” but choose “Asians” in his example. I have no respect for anyone who would “suggest” to investigators that their investigation has ended with finding no reason to charge George just so Papa Zim can (clearing throat) live without his family being threatened???

      Wow! His statement should be a psychologist’s dream.

    • Rachael says:

      That popped out at me too. I was shocked. I wish it could be the whole lot of them prosecuted. Very scary family, the whole lot of them.

      • Malisha says:

        Rachel, they’re dumb, overly defensive, self-righteous, and armed. Yes they are a scary family but an unfortunately large segment of our population share these characteristics.

        I have always wondered if people could be educated away from such ignorant and misguided views, but I don’t really think so, because it is not education per se, but the ability to understand the subtler issues in life (if I try to be a bit flexible, things will go better and the other guy won’t get so mad and I won’t have to stamp on his hands as often) —

        It’s just hopeless, in many cases. 😦

      • Patricia says:

        Rachael, agreed – and that they are totally clueless about profiling being wrong!

        He specifically illustrated it by RACE! Horrifying!

        Did these people just climb out from under a rock?

    • roderick2012 says:

      Now we know where George gets his narcissism .

    • ada4750 says:

      @patricia Sorry, but i think you are going too far. I mean, it is human to profile (racially or other way) in any situation. But it is a question of balance and GZ over did it.

      • Patricia says:


        There is no balance to profiling by race. If you are suspicious of any stranger for some reason (note: reason) you go up to him or her and say “May I help you?” Let strangers know you are aware of them.

        Incidentally, that’s how I first met Paul Newman. Decades back. And yes, his eyes were startlingly blue! (Very nice guy, also.)

      • ada4750 says:

        Paul Newman was looking suspicious? (just kidding) You are lucky. I like this actor. One of his movie has a cult status in my community.

        I don’t know for you but myself i think i profile along different criteria (racially but mainly culturally) quite often. Of course it is important to not over profiling and also to realize when we are doing it. Which GZ failed to do.

        • Patricia says:


          I worked in a security-sensitive environment and we were trained to always make a “friendly inquiry” first off, to all strangers.

          I’m walking into the lobby of my small (3-story) office building one afternoon and Paul Newman is just sitting casually on a low stone planter by the elevator, waiting. Nobody else in the lobby.

          I walk up to him with my “friendly inquiry” of “May I help you?” at the ready. He’s suddenly more than a little startled by this chick approaching, and looks up with a touch of alarm.

          (This was not my finest hour, communications-wise … )

          He looks up, and those incredible blue eyes are WIDE open. I had never seen such gentian-blue eyes in my life! Was so startled by the color! I blurted out,

          “My God! can I help you?”

          Newman looked really alarmed by that.
          “No … I’m OK, umm – I’m fine. Yeah .. really.”

          Nothing more for me to do but say (stupidly) “Oh, OK ….. ” and just walk on.

          It was not that he was a star. I worked with actors all the time, so that was cool. But I had never worked with Newman, so I had never met him. What threw me was the incredible color of his eyes. I can recall that color to this day. Amazing.

          But hey, as a potential security threat, he was scoped out …

        • Patricia says:


          Mankind has used a form of “profiling” toward “non-tribesmen” over the eons.

          Do you know the origin of the handshake?

          Since most people are right-handed, it’s right-hand to right-hand. When a stranger reached out to shake hands he was proving to you he didn’t have a knife in that hand (at the ready to stab you) and he was checking you out as well.

          The open-palm-in-the-air greeting also proved that your meeting would be peaceful. Shows you have no weapon at the ready. Tribes were not always at war with each other. Most PUBLIC encounters were peaceful (trading, etc) so a protocol was established.

          That said, we should always be alert to danger. Let our inner instincts guide us by observing actions. The Zimmermans seem to think that RACE comes first (maybe “primarily” — or “only”), and that it’s perfectly OK to think that.

          That is what astounded me. I understand what you are saying, ada4750 and that you are not condoning the Z folks actions. We often have to be more aware of strangers that we don’t know, depending on our surroundings.

          And then, on the flip side, there’s the creepy brother-in-law,
          whom we avoid at every gathering …

      • ada4750 says:

        I have to revised somewhat my comment because racial profiling is actually much more cultural profiling than anything else.

      • bettykath says:


        “But hey, as a potential security threat, he was scoped out …”

        Right. By every hetero female and gay male who knew he was there!

      • ada4750 says:

        Thank you for your interesting historical note. I am lefty so whonoze (excuse me) it might be useful.

        Are you sure Paul Newman eye’s were not photoshopped? To avoid any confusion maybe i should specify that his cult movie is Slap Shot (french canadian version, absolutely surrealist!)

        • Patricia says:

          Ada, that was Pre-Photo Shop, but they may have had colored contacts at that time. However, his eyes were always naturally that color. They were not Newman’s only attributes (besides his talent.)

  16. Fred~~I had the following all typed up in my notepad and was ready to submit it and noticed you had put a new post up. Rather than file it away and forget it, I am going to paste it here. If it is too far off topic free free to swipe it… here goes….

    Fred~~what is that old saying, “Keep your enemies close so you can keep an eye on them?” Most of the discussions center around the evidence the prosecution has and in all liklihood, they will get a conviction of second-degree murder against Zimmerman. I have learned that nothing is engraved in stone when it comes to trials and verdicts. Maybe we should take a look at the ‘enemy’ and see what they may have in their arsenal. I am sure Bernie De La Rionda is doing just that so he can counteract with a more powerful strategy.

    If this case goes to trial, the state has to convince a jury that Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. O’Mara on the other hand will fire back with creating a reasonable doubt. The six jurors will not be familar with Zimmerman or know anything about this case. You may agree that once a jury has been picked, the case is either won or lost at that moment.

    I will tell you in all honesty that when this story first broke, I felt Zimmerman was defending himself against an attack by a 17 yr old youth that was in good physical shape. When we learned that NBC deliberately editted the 911 tape to make Z look like a racist and then the rallies took place etc, I then felt that George Zimmerman was being made a ‘scapegoat’ because of all the racial dissension and the many mistakes made by the Sanford PDept.

    I perched myself on the fence and became one of the most unpopular commenters on two blogs, on of those being my own blog. I was forever dodging spit balls etc. After reviewing the evidence that we have been privy to, I have since changed my mind that Zimmerman is guilty of second-degree murder. BTW, I NEVER ever went to the pro Z’s blogs to comment but did read there. I just held steadfast to the fence pole because I tend to be very stubborn and refuse to rush to judgement. Also, I will not say what I think people want to hear.

    Fred, what I am trying to get across after laying that foundation is , have you ever considered a post on what the defense may have as far as making a case to try and get Zimmerman off? I know that attorneys read blogs so we will not give away too much. lol I am thinking that we should not have tunnel vision and underestimate Mark O’Mara. Z may be guilty as he** but Mark is one shrewd cookie. So many thought that he could not get Judge Lester off the bench… what more can I say except, the state will say that Trayvon was unarmed. Mark could counter that by saying, “Fists can kill” and present the stats. I bolded the above to avoid anymore spitballs. lol

  17. Beth~~my first priority would not be to secure the scene. In this case, it would be disarm the shooter, cuff him and then attend to the victim asap. I imagine that the first officer on scene learned via his radio that a shooting had taken place and two ambulances had been dispatched to the scene. One of those two ambulances was turned back.

  18. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I get the feeling that Seminole County and the Orlando Sentinel is laying the ground work for and acquittal. Why are they advertising today that Debra Nelson rejected a SYG defense of and African American who was later acquitted by a jury (article states). Seminole County is not honest; this is a ploy to steer people away from the fact GZ is a murderer who was allowed to walk free on his WORD alone. He stalked and gunned down this black child with no regard for his life. He considered him a “thug.”

    This is why I’m so highly suspicious of this news paper and do not trust any of there reporting. They are not objective doctoring photos last week… I sent people to the sight it was ridiculous…

    SPD and the entire layout of them allowing GZ to walk scot free shows Zimmerman’s father contacts assisted him greatly and would have succeeded if the Main Stream Media didn’t expose the injustice to benefit a agenda.

    My opinion I smell something fishy going on in criminal Florida who treats people according to their nationality. Such a racist/bias state…

    This is my opinion…

    • Xena says:

      The first thing I found wrong with that article is that they say O’Mara is pursuing a SYG defense. That’s incorrect. IF he files an immunity petition, it will be on traditional self-defense. The next thing is that it’s from a perspective of “If he did it and was acquitted, everyone can do it.”

      The thing about cases is that what, when, where, and how are not the same. IMO, if GZ proceeds to trial, his profiling of Trayvon will have significant impression on jurors. A teenager assumed to be up to no good because he is walking and it is raining puts a target on the chests of all teenagers who are walking alone.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Interesting perspective.. have a nice evening. Ill check back tomorrow.

        Maybe someone can answer the question about bringing the jury to the crime scene…

        Nightly night…

    • Malisha says:

      The case Judge Nelson AND a jury decided differently is not at all similar to the Zimmerman case, though. In the case where the defendant did NOT get off on the SYG defense but then did get acquitted is, in my opinion, quite correct. The defendant had purchased a gun, for cash, from a guy he knew. But he had not paid for the whole amount of the purchase price, and still owed $20 — he was homeless. He was sleeping on a bench when the guy who sold him the gun came up to him WITH HIS BROTHER and they rousted the homeless guy and dumped him off his bench out of a deep sleep, whereupon an argument about the $20 began. There were both words and threats. Of course, by the fact that the two original aggressors had SOLD a gun to the defendant, he was armed (had the gun) and they were probably assumed to be armed (at least it would be expected, right?) and all three were angry and wary and had good reason to feel very defensive. One of the two aggressors came up and tried to shove some kind of “glass-topped table” at the defendant — whatever that means — and the defendant shot him three times, killing him. He was charged with 2nd degree murder and arrested immediately.

      THe SYG motion was denied because the judge (Nelson) was not convinced that the defendant had a “reasonable fear” causing him to acquire the right to kill rather than retreat. Well that was right, wasn’t it? But clearly, he had a right to be very afraid, and he had not started the fight, and there were two against one, right? So when the whole thing got in front of a jury, the jury made another CORRECT call in saying that the guy was probably defending himself, or there was a good chance he was defending himself.

      Here are the differences between the Zimmerman case and the Jones case, in my opinion.

      Zimmerman Jones

      He was the aggressor From the start, he was defending
      He was armed and knew it His victim was unarmed
      Easily could have avoided He was trying to avoid it, failed
      He was not very hurt Two against one, big risk
      He knew police were coming Alone, without any other defense

      BUT in terms of the likelihood of acquittal, look at the balance:

      Jones Zimmerman
      HAD to defend himself “He attacked me” sounds lame
      He was outnumbered Heavier and older than TM
      Attackers had motive TM had no motive to attack him
      He knew the two thugs No reason to presume anything
      In danger of being shot Never in danger of being shot

      • Malisha says:

        I did this as two charts, but it unformatted itself. I’ll write it again later, more clearly. I meant, in terms of the SYG hearing, that

        Zimmerman was the aggressor, knew frm the start he was armed, easily could have avoided the confrontation, was not very hurt, knew the police were on their way.

        Jones (with regard to SYG) was defending from the start, did not have a reasonable expectation that the other two men were unarmed, could not have avoided the confrontation, knew he was one against two, was facing a big risk, was alone, did not have a reasonable expectation of others coming to his defense.

        With respect to the actual trial:

        Zimmerman initiated the whole thing, his story of “he attacked me” sounds lame, was older and heavier, knew the police would show up any minute, was not outnumbered, had no reason to fear that Trayvon Martin was armed or dangerous, did not have serious injuries, knew there were people around who had already seen and offered to report the conflict, etc.

        Jones was facing two men he KNEW could be armed and dangerous because one of them sold HIM a gun already; he was threatened three times; he had already been physically accosted; he had no expectation that protection would show up and save him; he knew that it could end in him being killed; there was no safe way for him to retreat; since the fight had developed and then slowed down once already, the two assailants turning around and “starting up again” with him had potential for serious risk. I think that’s reasonable doubt about his motive having included “malice” or “depraved mind.” Don’t you?

        I think both Judge Nelson AND the jury did right in the Jones case. I think they will both do right in the Zimmerman case, too, and Zimmerman will be convicted.

  19. bettykath says:

    The first thing that is supposed to happen is secure the scene. That didn’t happen until later.

    The second thing that is supposed to happen is to check the condition of any victims.
    That didn’t happen until later.

    The third thing that is supposed to happen is deal with the perpetrator.
    This happened first.

    I guess if you have a shooter who is still armed, it might be reasonable to disarm and cuff him first. The next officers on the scene checked the victim. Then the scene was secured.

    Separating witnesses should occur. GZ had discussions with a witness about bullets. Did this occur after the police arrived? I think it did. He also was able to communicate with a witness enough to have him call Shellie. A witness was able to take pictures of the crime scene. Considering how quickly the police were there, how did this happen?

    Some of the witnesses were coached or led. “The guy left standing was the one yelling for help” [paraphrased]. I think the boy with the dog was also not treated properly.

    Witnesses are to be discouraged from going to the media. The most obvious example is the woman who claims the police wouldn’t interview her. Obviously she didn’t get the message b/c it wasn’t given.

    The audio and video recordings of witness statements was positive. Did they happen in Feb or later after the publicity?

    I guess the next question has to do with relevance in this particular case.

    • whonoze says:

      JonW13 had at least some of his conversation with GZ and took the pictures before the police arrived.

      EVERYBODY PLEASE NOTE: One of the consistent points of confusion in people looking at the case is the idea that the police got there at 7:17. The ‘there’ in this case is the gate of The Retreat. Ofc. Smith did not know where to go, and drove around for awhile, before exiting his cruiser and finally walking to where the shooting took place. He did not get THERE until ~7:19:30. Enough time had passed for GZ to get up, walk around, tell Selma Mora “Just call the police!” make a phone call (or an attempt at one), and get his pic taken by Jon.

      • PYorck says:

        Thanks. I knew that Smith arrived later than his official arrival time, but for some reason I never made the connection that most likely W13 took the photos before police arrived at the scene. That makes the whole thing a lot more appropriate and reasonable.

      • Patricia says:

        Whonoze, was Jon W13 the guy that Zim had the discussion with re: calibre of bullet needed for the kill?

      • jd says:

        yes, Jon/W13 is the iPhone photographer who chatted w GZ about gun calibers before officer T. Smith arrived. Neither apparently made any attempt to check TM for a pulse. He apparently heard or was told that the gun was on the ground by GZ as he walked up, and this may be why he took a photo of the black, tactical flashlight in the dark. He took two more pics, one of the body seemingly on it’s face (indeterminate from the copy we have at present where exactly the hands and arms were) in close proximity to the black flashlight, and another infamous picture of the back of GZ’s bloodied head that ABC news ran, with GZ holding a call phone to his ear and very likely NOT in handcuffs at the time. The photo is time stamped and this is how we “know” when T.Smith actually arrived – it was after this time and around the time other 911 callers were noting it.

        He also was asked later to call GZ’s wife, which begs the question of who GZ was calling in the bloody head photo.

        teacher/W18 thought jon/W13 was the SPD and others seemed to have that impression as well since he had a flashlight and GZ reacted to him as such at first as well.

        Most surmise the the second flashlight is T Smith’s arrival. Hope this helps.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Although I do think GZ was truly on his way to Target that night, as per his regular weekly schedule, I don’t think he necessarily had a regular Neighborhood Watch routine – it sounds like from various reports that he simply watched the neighborhood when he walked the dog and on any trip in and out of the community. Some said he was seen prowling around also late at night. I think the trip to Target is just repeated over and over in order to make us forget that he shouldn’t have been carrying his concealed weapon while acting as NW, or that he was finally caught tragically mixing two activities. Apparently he did so frequently. And though he claims to not ever have carried his weapon into his workplace, what’s to prevent him from having carried it regularly in his truck? Most CCW carriers like to keep their weapon near them at all times.

  20. whonoze~~I would have liked to know if George had a store list or some extra money in the truck. I understand he only had a bit of change in his pocket so maybe was going to Target for some milk or a pkt of gum. I am also shocked that law enforcement did not seal Z’s vehicle and take it into the compound. They could have put some markers up where the truck was parked and photo it before towing it away. This was after all a homicide.

  21. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Dear Professor, place yourself in the prosecutions shoes.

    Would you ask if the jury can go out to the actual crimes scene? If so, would this move drive the nails in GZ coffin?

    If they went it may show in real time the extent of GZ lies.

    As a prosecutor would and could you request this from the judge? How does it work when it comes to taking a jury to the actual crimes?

    Would like Professor Leatherman to answer if possible…

  22. whonoze says:

    The major crime scene error AFAIK was not securing GZ’s truck. I wonder if the police even asked GZ how he got there. If they didn’t, they failed to even attempt to identify the extent of the crime scene. (If they did ask, he may have lied and said he walked, which alone should tag on an obstruction charge.)

    The failures of the SPD on the night of 2/26 strike me as less to do with high tech forensics, but half-assed or bungled old-fashioned police work. Their interview techniques were horrible, and they didn’t canvas wide enough.

    Once they discovered the screams and gunshots were recorded on W11’s 911 call, they should have impounded her phone.

  23. Vicky~~I am wondering, with the exception of Dee Dee’s statement, if the state has one good ear/eye witness out of all the ones who gave their testimonies of the events. I believe four of them changed their stories. Were they upgrading or degrading things? Hmmm

    • whonoze says:

      W18 “The Teacher” has been consistent, and should be a very good witness.

    • Vicky says:

      MSF – Good question and one that I will leave for the jurors to decide. If they ever get to hear from the witnesses, other than authenticating the 911 calls of those who called.
      My guess is that if witness statements are introduced, the prosecution will put it out there from the get go that the police told (at least the one witness) that GZ was the one yelling, and the the witness assumed the police were correct. Eye witness testimony can be pretty tricky. I believe both side will extrapolate the consistent recollections between the witnesses and use those to help establish their theory of the case. It was so dark out that night, I think the recall of what was heard will be as important than what was seen. There is certainly some distance between the homes of several witnesses and each claimed some portion of the struggle occurred just outside their location. I’m somewhat biased, so I’m inclined to believe their recall following time to reflect upon what they saw and heard. In the end, the jurors will have to weigh out the importance and credibility of witness testimony.

  24. TruthBTold says:


  25. Vicky says:

    Darn auto correct resuscitate no necessitate Trayvon. See Ed, it’s my spelling that gets me every time.

  26. Vicky says:

    As for will their screw-ups material and will they affect the outcome of the case?

    I believe the SYG laws (which remind me of the “dog ate my homework” defense) in Florida and GZ’s non-emergency call helped set the stage for the initial manner in which the case was handled. The moment GZ asserted he was defending himself from the unknown “suspect” when he shot Trayvon, the first officers on the scene conducted themselves under the assumption he was telling the truth, which apparently is common practice throughout the state. Unfortunate, but true. I do think that once detectives were on the scene, things were handled in a manner more akin to a homicide investigation as opposed to a meet and greet. Allowing buddy Mark to enter the area and have access to GZ, was in my opinion BS.

    I do think the crime scene field, along with Zimmerman’s SPD call, and his own admissions, pretty well establish that the struggle began in one place, but ended in another. Since George can in be considered a witness, his inconsistencies and misstatements, when viewed separately are pretty telling. SPD did a pretty good job of preserving those witness statements, although they did try to manipulate him from time to time. Crime scene techs did preserve photo evidence of the items scattered in the surrounding area.

    As for Trayvon, I don’t hold the first responders responsible for anything they did during the time they were attempting to necessitate Trayvon. If the can and skittles were in Trayvon’s pocket, I doubt anything can be made of that. He is not alive to tell why he placed them there. So I doubt the defense will be able to make anything of that.

    I honestly believe the prosecution will keep their case so narrow they won’t open a single window for the defense to climb through. the majority of evidence they do have was provided by GZ himself, so it will be easy to pick and choose. The biggest obstacle will be working through changes in witness statements that apparently occurred once they were properly questioned.

    • roderick2012 says:

      @ Vicky I disagree with you about the location of the can of soda and Skittles.

      If Trayvon were preparing for a fight why would he weigh himself down by placing all of that stuff in the pocket of his hoodie?

      It looks as if Trayvon was attempting to avoid Zimmerman and tring to make himself as compact as possible by ditching the bag from 7-11.

      If I had been him and I would have placed my belonging on the grass beat up Zimmerman and picked them up on my way home or not.

      Suppose that there were actually an altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon. Wouldn’t his can of soda have slipped out of the pocket ( along with the bag of candy) with all of the wrestling around? What if Trayvon had used the can of soda to strike Zimmerman? Then wouldn’t it still be on the ground? If Trayvon had used it wouldn’t it have exploded since it is an aluminum can or been severely dented? Also did they look for any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the soda can just to discredit another one of Zimmerman’s scenerios?

      • Patricia says:

        “Also did they look for any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the soda can just to discredit another one of Zimmerman’s scenerios?”

        Roderick, what are you, some kind of trouble-maker? You know Sanford PD doesn’t want to make waves for “one of its own.”

  27. If the state brings in their own expert and he/she examines the pictures of the back of Z’s head, the EMT reports as well as the docs report, that expert will put the kabosh on the defense’s claim that Z’s head was pounded against the pavement a dozen times. Even to just a layperson, it is impossible to for a skull to connect with concrete repeatedly and just end up with a couple of lacerations. If Z’s head had been pounded on the sidewalk as many times as he stated, he would have lost consciousness and probably bled to death before they got him to emerg. I don’t think it was necessary to take blood samples from the sidewalk. By the time that they got the proper equipment to pick up any blood samples, the rains would have washed it all away. The rains in Florida come as what I would call, ‘cloud bursts’…it normally teems in fits and starts. JMO

    • ed nelson says:

      [“If Z’s head had been pounded on the sidewalk as many times as he stated, he would have lost consciousness and probably bled to death before they got him to emerg. “]
      lost consciousness and probably bled to death
      Lost consciousness maybe, but not bled to death, (in my humble opinion,) with the caveat: he might could have bled to death from a cerebral hemorrhage, as that is de rigueur, for head trauma… from internal bleeding within the skull with is what kills millions every year, who fall off a bike, or down the stairs… etc. etc. etc. !! be careful !!!
      Do the rains wash away the blood on a sidewalk? what in a day? or a month, no: says I !
      I bet the DNA and the Blood thingies… are there longer than what Florida rains can wash off so quick.

      • Vicky says:

        Ed, I agree with you and have wondered if the investigators tried to find blood on the sidewalk. If you ask me, GZ was way too clear in his thinking and speech to have just had his head bashed on anything. No signs of concussion what so ever. he claimed to be dizzy, but was stable on his feet.

      • Someone should have collected the emt swabs used on GZ head that night. If his head got banged at all some minute concrete residue would have been there

    • Xena says:

      @mainstreamfair. Of course, the defense is more likely to argue that two cuts on the head gave GZ reason to believe that he was suffering great bodily harm. The prosecution has forensic evidence that Trayvon did not lay a hand on GZ’s head, face, nor nose. Along with that, GZ’s statements and re-enactment are clear that when he shot Trayvon, his head was no longer on concrete and was not being bashed. Thus, the head injuries are moot as it concerns the time that GZ pulled his gun.

      That is why GZ developed a story that in the dark, Trayvon saw his holstered gun on the inside of his waistband. But GZ says that he restrained Trayvon’s arm and locked his wrist so he could not get to the gun, which overcomes any threat of Trayvon taking the gun.

      So, GZ changed his story again and said that he lost the wrist lock. What is then required of him is to explain how being able to shimmie so that his body was free from the waist up, and having both arms and hands free, caused him to be pinned and unable to avoid having to use deadly force?

      • rachael says:

        It is all so convoluted.

      • thejbmission says:

        Hi Xena,
        I thought I would find you here. 😀
        You’re exactly right about the forensics. The lack of DNA under Trayvon’s nails will be key to this case, just like TM’s un-bruised knuckles. According to the ME, it’s hard to believe the young man was in a fight.
        BTW, speaking of fighting, my brother and son actually tested GZ’s reenactment of the struggle. We found that it was near impossible for GZ to shoot TM in a straight line from front to back while he was on the bottom.
        In our little demonstration on Labor Day, it was impossible for GZ to hold TM still enough to shoot him as he described. My brother was on top of my son and my son could immediately move out of the way and grab his arm when the gun/spoon was produced.
        I think GZ is going to have a problem describing this fight at trial.

        BTW.. I hope Marilyn is right. Just wish I knew where she learned this.

      • Xena says:

        JB!!!! I had not visited your blog recently, hoping you had time to clean-up after the hurricane. It’s good to see/hear you.

        Fight? What fight? GZ has lots of ‘plain’ to do, including how he left his car keys in his truck, but a key to his car with a flashlight was found at the T about 40 ft away from the fight/crime scene.

        Speaking of which, I don’t remember investigators asking GZ in any of his interviews how and when he dropped his car key and tactical flashlight.

        @Rachel. Absolutely! Everything about GZ’s stories is convoluted.

      • logi says:

        Those keys also make me wonder if the police knew he drove to the scene. I have heard people claim the police did not know he had driven and was on foot.
        They let him move his car and I think it should have been part of the crime scene.

      • bettykath says:

        I agree that his vehicle should have been part of the crime scene. Not only was a car key found, one officer noted the license plates and found that one of the vehicles belonged to GZ.

      • If Trayvon’s hands were so busy banging the head(needed both hands to bang a bald head), holding the mouth and nose. Then….. suddenly deciding with the LEFT hand to go for the gun only to be pinned, what was his RIGHT hand doing. I just find it hard to believe that he was such a overwhelming physical presence on GZ yet, DID NOTHING WITH HIS RIGHT HAND. Unless it was held. GZ did state he had wrist control.

      • Marilyn says:

        Hi thejbmission, go on back up to the start of this thread, it’s now all explained where Deedee’s statement came from. I should have done this from the start, and I apologize for not doing so.
        I was so amazed after reading screamin’ jay’s Deedee transcription at the end of the Professor’s last thread, I guess I made the dumb assumption that it had been read by all. The link is again at the top of this thread.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      At the very least, he would have had bruising and probably a scraped or skinned sort of effect on the back of his head, which he clearly didn’t have.

    • Dennis says:

      I am always shocked at how different the prosecution’s experts and the defense’s experts can disagree. Any medical expert that would go on the stand and actually claim that Zimmerman’s wounds are evidence of “concrete head bashing” would be very shady in my eyes.

      In the Amanda Knox trial, the DNA expert that did the tests for the police committed perjury, claiming that “DNA does not fly”. I’m not sure if this woman is an idiot or a liar, but a recent study has shown that household dust is around 60% organic. You might ask what could be in that dust, the answer is very simple, skin cells, and skin cells most certainly have DNA if they are fresh enough.

      • Dennis says:

        Basically, I believe that independent experts should be consulted for analysis of evidence. This way, there would be no biased views on the evidence. Two independent experts shot down the shady DNA evidence that convicted Amanda Knox. Their conclusion, the DNA of the victim was never on the suspected kitchen knife, it was starch. The idiots that handle DNA evidence can effectively seal someone’s fate and give them a wrongful conviction if they do not do their job correctly. The horrifying thing is, sometimes these errors in the DNA testing go unacknowledged. Thank god for organizations like the Idaho Innocence Project.

  28. mark says:

    Speaking of OJ, it brings up the Bruno Maglis….I wish they would’ve thought about trying to preserve footprints, then we might’ve known who was where.

  29. Xena says:

    I agree with Marilyn about the sidewalk. My question is, would not where GZ’s truck was parked be part of the crime scene?

  30. Brown says:

    follow thread

  31. Fred~ ~ ahhh Math and Science, two of my favorite subjects. One way to get rid of a male , ask him to multiply 1/2 x5/16. lol

    The first time I was introduced to DNA was in the OJ case. That was the biggest stress test I ever endured. Barry Scheck has save a few people from the gallows due to DNA and the advancements of science.

    I find it amazing that they can take skin cells ( we all shed thousands of them every day) from several individuals and can zero in on one of those people’s DNA. It is very time consuming but not impossible.

    Great post, btw, you are really taxing our brains with these last two posts. Thank you kindly for all you do to keep us up to date.

    • ed nelson says:

      [“I find it amazing that they can take skin cells ( we all shed thousands of them every day) from several individuals and can zero in on one of those people’s DNA. It is very time consuming but not impossible.”]
      “from several individuals and can zero in on one of those people’s DNA. It is very time consuming”

      What are you saying? You don’t think that could be problematic? What if they zeroed in on your skin cells? and you were only one of a million who’s skin cells were in the “hopper”… ? No you might not get the drift from this, but some day… everybody’s skin cells will be just as the same as that gadamned thing that the nutjobs used to talk about… like a mark… like a chip… like how would anybody be so gadamned sure your little distinct code… couldn’t be … hysted from your f’n bathroom/bedroom wastebasket?… and like ole’ OJ’s case suggested, that the DNA could a been planted.
      It is easily planted, if it is that simple.
      An absolutely great technology, but then so were so many other innovations and leaps ahead, only to be used and abused by the untermenschen/ assholes, and where’s the gain… wayne?

      • ed nelson~~would you believe me if I said that it is easy to distinguish a human from a snake? The human sheds thousands of itty bitty skin cells while a snake just crawls out of his skin and leaves his one-piece overcoat dangling on a blade of grass, under a rock, you name it. It goes to show that some asps are smarter than we are. I am 100% positive that you will not only tell me how brilliant I am but you will agree with me too. Keep an eagle eye on Vicky for me, okay? She tends to get a little wild.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Love Barry Scheck and Henry Lee

    • Dennis says:

      I think the O.J. case was a great example of how evidence can be dismissed due to the police breaking the chain of custody. If I recall the one detective admitted to taking the vial of blood back to the crime scene. I think the police knew that O.J. was a likable guy in the eyes of the public so they had to plant evidence to secure a conviction. That definitely backfired on them. The jurors even said that they believe he murdered the two people, but they say that the prosecution did not prove their case.

      • People don’t know it but Oj son who had attacked Nicole Simpson on several occasions I believed murdered her. From the beginning I suspect Oj was covering for someone. One of the officers on the case two years ago came out with evidence that was always there. He presented it to a room filled of detectives 200 by the end of reviewing the case only 2 or 3 believed Oj did it. It was shocking before the case went media crazy Oj son was being looked at he had serious anger management issues and was furious his father left his mother for Nicole distroying his family. Well I always felt his son did it. he was excellent with using knives he graduated from a top chef school and never understood why media rush to judgement.

        I hope people stop sending money to gz because he took everyone for a ride. His helpers frank taffee and osterman.

        Let’s hope gz doesnt avoid his jail cell waiting, many people did in the Oj trial.

  32. CommonSenseForChange says:

    My biggest problem with the crime scene is that the actual location of the “effects” of Trayvon Martin were not accurately recorded. Instead, they are listed as in Martin’s pockets.

    It has lead to the pro-Zimmerman fodder that Martin was preparing for a fight. There’s one small piece of evidence that contradicts the pro-Zimmerman fodder and overcomes the sloppiness of the SPD’s accurate documentation of where Martin’s effects were actually found.

    DeeDee!!! (More later)

    Forensics is a damn good thing! Documentation and evidence chains are also damn good things!

    • CommonSenseForChange says:


      “and overcomes the sloppiness of the SPD’s accurate documentation”


      and overcomes the sloppiness of the SPD’s INACCURATE documentation

  33. Vicky says:

    Thank you for providing the link. From what I recall, the biggest mistake made by the SPD was telling one of the witnesses that GZ was the one screaming that during the incident. That action was most definitely contrary to procedures described in the witness interview manual linked.
    I did find it interesting that investigators are encouraged to break the witness statements down and not dismiss their recollection of events based upon single discrepancies.

    • ed nelson says:

      Just a question about the grammar of your comment:

      [“I did find it interesting that investigators are encouraged to break the witness statements down and… “]

      Shouldn’t that be: “I did find it interesting that investigators were… ?

      I did… past tense. Investigators were… past tense… nes pa Barney?

      I, who never passed beyond 8th grade can spot mixed tenses… haha

      • Vicky says:

        Hi Ed, I did (as I was reading), find it interesting that investigators are (ongoing recommendation) encouraged to break the witness spelling…

        It is ok to mix tenses in that context, however, I do as I sit here still find it interesting, so I could have stated I do find it interesting..I do have to admit,

        If you really want to mess with me, go after my spelling. Thank goodness for spell check. 🙂

    • Dennis says:

      That does sound very strange. The police are supposed to interview witnesses to understand their version of what they saw, heard, etc… For the police to actually suggest to the witness what happened is very strange. Sounds to me like this is the same racist narcotics officer that is being accused of coaching Zimmerman on what to say in order to claim self-defense.

  34. Marilyn says:

    This is something that has driven me crazy – something they didn’t do – there was no attempt to test, photograph, or even look at the sidewalk to establish whether or not a head bashing took place. I cannot understand how George can prove (neither can we disprove)his head was bashed on the concrete without some evidence of blood/skin somewhere. According to Deedee it was hardly raining at that time. That blood would have been there if it really happened.
    I just have to thank Screaming Jay one more time. Now we know from Deedee that George chased Treyvon with his car, almost hitting him! This man is a beast.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Ha! I was posting while you were posting, so I didn’t see your thoughts as I was posting mine. So funny that we both conclude DeeDee holds the key even though we said for different reasons!

    • roderick2012 says:

      Marilyn, the re-enactment video shows that Zimmerman’s head wasn’t bashed in.

      The videographer panned to the back of Zimmerman’s head and showed that there was no swelling or knots on the back of Zimmerman’s head (under those knuckle bandages) so there goes his lie that his head was bashed onto the concrete sidewalk multiple times.

      • Marilyn says:

        Hi roderick, yes, I agree. My point is that this is George’s story, yet it is impossible for him to prove. And at the same time, it also is impossible for the prosecution to disprove. There could have been a lack of ANY blood anywhere (except perhaps on that poor little tree), which could have more easily convinced a jury that it could not have happened the way George claimed. This lie could have been exposed.
        I really agree with you. And even MOM has backed off from the head bashing claim. But I just wish the police had done this particular job.

        CSFC – yes, I agree, Deedee holds the key. That transcription is incredible. It was all there all along.

      • rachael says:

        Also recall that one of his stories he said he was hit in the face like 25 times – puhleeze. There is just NO way that any of his wounds look consistent with any of the things he said.

        I made the stupid mistake of going to one of the other sites where you would not believe the “reasoning” they are using. OMG – nothing ANY reasonable person could even remotely think. I don’t know why I go there, such total nonsense.

        Just because GZ was too stupid to talk with an attorney before saying anything to the police does not mean anyone else is. And GZ was no wimp. Perhaps they have forgotten that he was a bouncer who was fired because he was too aggressive.

      • roderick2012 says:

        rachael says: LOL. The problem is that all of the Zimmerman men exaggerate when they lie. My guess is that every time that Zimmerman was interviewed and he thought that Serino was doubting his story he thought that giving more detail would help his cause. Sadly for the idiot in being more specific he was extreme and forgot parts of the scenerio that he had already told.

        I went to TalkLeft yesterday and was reading some of the most recent updates and couldn’t believe the mental gymnastics the Zimmerbots were attempting to make their hero innocent.

        There was a thread about Frank Taaffe’s DUI arrest and the blog host Jeralyn was whining about Florida’s open records.
        Another posters was wondering why the media isn’t going after Trayvon’s family like they are Zimmerman’s friends. Could it be that Taaffe has been all over the media trashing Trayvon and his family and harassing DeeDee through Twitter while Trayvon’s family has kept a low profile since Zimmerman’s arrest.

        Some of these Zimbots are as trashy as their hero.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Let’s see Zimmerman tried to run over Trayvon in his car, shot him in the heart with a hollow-point, and then sat on his dying body while Trayvon was suffocating in his own blood. Not one shred of human empathy in Zimmerman’s whole being. Even a dog is treated better than he treated Trayvon. Smh!

      Time for me to take another break and clear my head of Zimmerman’s cruelty towards a human being.

    • bettykath says:

      For a complete story, they could have looked for it, but, given the superficiality of George’s wounds, it’s not likely they would have found anything.

      I think if there had been blood that they could see, it would have been photographed and taken up for testing.

      • I agree that he probably lost a small amount of blood from his scalp wounds. Given the direction of flow, I also suspect most of it would have dripped onto his jacket and the shirt he was wearing under it.

        GZ not only has an absence-of-blood problem, he also has an absence-of-injuries problem. Specifically, I’m referring to the absence of abrasions and swelling that one would expect to see, given his description of what happened.

        Absence of evidence, however, is not evidence of absence.

        This series of comments inspired me to write a detailed answer about how I might handle this potentially missing evidence.

        My answer will be the subject of my next post.

        • TruthBTold says:

          “Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.” Funny, I’ve been thinking about this saying, but wasn’t sure I had the last part correct which, I actually did. I remember Marcia Clarke stating this in her closing. I kind of get what it means, but can you please expound professor? Thank you.

      • Marilyn says:

        Professor, I’m thrilled. This has bothered me for months. I just didn’t know how it is handled.

    • whonoze says:

      I don’t know what remark of DeeDee’s you’re referencing, but the physical evidence of the NEN call and the surveillance videos is utterly inconsistent with GZ almost hitting Trayvon with his truck.

      • jd says:

        I disagree. The transcript referred to is dee Dee’s interview w ABC/crump – posted under W8 at axiom amnesia, and transcribed by Screamin’ jay.

        The timing of rhe NEN call is consistent with GZ having parked where he marked on a map Singleton showed GZ during the second interview. And he’d have likely made a u-turn on TTL to get there, creeping up with his lights off. The position is at the first bend in TTL by the clubhouse. Dee Dee does not specifically mention the car to pedestrian chase in her interview w BDLR but she does reference it in the crump/ABC interview.

        This “middle” position between clubhouse parking lot and the “final” position near the cutthru path resolves inconsistencies and explains contradictions in GZs statements to SPD in my opinion. When played the NEN recording finally GZ repeatedly insisted he was “at the clubhouse” when the “he’s coming tonchexk me out/ hand in waistband” section is played.

        Then there is also the story he tells during the so called voice stress test season where GZ claims he pulled “alongside” the clubhouse.

    • Tzar says:

      “Now we know from Deedee that George chased Treyvon with his car, almost hitting him!”

      where do we know this from?

      • Marilyn says:

        This is a quote from Deedee, it’s under the heading “walking” but listen to what she says:
        So, the man was still in the car, then Trayvon started walking. Trayvon said, ‘The guy’s coming at me…he’s going to hit me.”
        I’m pretty sure this action is just after Treyvon leaves the mail shelter and puts up his hoodie. the only other time this action could have happened would have been right before the final fight. Read it through and see what you think.

        This is from the Deedee transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gn1-F4zxtE8kWozljRikwD_TRpj4O3AywmVJlIqk_-0/edit?pli=1

      • Tzar says:

        thank you so much
        this guy is a psychopath

      • Tzar says:

        Hey Marilyn do you have an original source for this audio, i don’t trust Google transcripts

      • Marilyn says:

        This is the work of Screaming Jay. This blogger spent countless hours decifering the rotten recording given to the public. There is a much clearer recording available somewhere but we don’t have it. Go on over to BCCList for more info. There are still some parts that are untranslatable. Jay left out the police questions and simply translated Deedee’s words.
        Angela Cory knows what Deedee said (she has to had a better recording), and I’m now convinced this is why she charged 2nd degree murder.

      • Marilyn says:

        screamin’ jay – I apologize for spelling you wrong!
        Tzar – jd, just above, cites the specific interview and where you can find it.

      • jd says:

        Tzar – the axiom amnesia site posted the audio of the ABC/Crump initial interview with Dee Dee under audio> witness 8, her designation by the investigators.

        The transcript by “Screamin Jay” is not perfect due to the poor audio quality and Dee Dee’s dialect but IMO it’s close enough to tell what she means, and yes she’s talking about a car-to-pedestrian chase that TM related to her. She was not asked specifically about this in her deposition with BDLR and so doesn’t mention it there directly.

        There is a significant gap in the recoding where the ABC/Crump recorders took a break to call Dee Dee back due to a poor connection, and when the recording resumes it’s obvious that the recording rejoins the conversation in progress and the first time she may or may not have spoken about the car-to-pedestrian chase has already passed by. What she says about it later is in response to a follow-up question, so this may be why this passage has slipped thru the cracks seemingly until now.

        FWIW, I’ve been positing that this car-to-ped slow motion chase was likely for months now, simply because of the timing of the NEN call recording suggests it highly if you start with the assumption that TM was somewhere, anywhere “near the clubhouse” as GZ admits to dispatch. There’s an obvious “here he comes/ there he goes” section of the NEN call that’s been discussed widely, and includes the detail of TM having his hand in his waistband at the time. But less discussed is the 30 seconds AFTER “these axxholes always get away” up until GZ says sh*t, he’s running.” This is what I call the “long tail” of the timing. If GZ was parked by the cut thru path for the major portion of his NEN call, and TM was coming from the clubhouse as Dee Dee says (having waited at the mail kiosk) then this “long tail” would give him ample time to walk out of sight before GZ had the chance to see him run. But if instead GZ was parked “at the clubhouse” as he repeatedly insists when finally played the NEN recording, then the timing is such that he HAS TO MOVE behind TM as the teen made his way down TTL towards the cut thru.

        Dee Dee’s statements to Crump/ABC simply confirm what has to be so via deductive reasoning.

        GZ told multiple obvious lies to obscure omit and obfuscate the way he and TM moved from clubhouse area to cut thru vicinity and it can all be proven in court to be lies, IMO. To me this is the clearest path to wrecking the defendant’s credibility since most of what would be used in court is NOT the testimony or depostions from Dee Dee but GZ’s own contradictory words on the topic – his NEN call timing vs his later contradictory tales to SPD. How does one refute your own defendant as a defense?

        Many things are possible. Most of what GZ told investigators regarding his movements from the clubhouse area to the cut through are not possible.

        He never offered information to investigators that TM ran, and only speaks of it when prompted. But for the NEN call recording we’d never know he ran at all. IMO the teen ran for good reason – a creepy unidentified guy in a car was rolling up behind him after staring at him for a while, and then making a u turn when TM passed by on his way home.

        A lot of my thinking about the timing is outlined here in notes made to go with illustrations.


      • Dennis says:

        The chilling testimony from DeeDee will be very hard to deal with for the defense. I’m sure the jury will be more likely to believe her than the guy on trial who has zero credibility. They will also be more likely to believe DeeDee and the Martin family regarding who is the one screaming for help. The good thing for the prosecution is that they have a “motive”. Any logical juror should be able to see that the motive for Zimmerman’s lies and inconsistent story is the fact that he killed Martin while he was not in imminent danger.

      • Pooh says:

        It has been obvious from the beginning that GZ had to have followed TM closely in his car along RVC and down TTL. Once he notices TM at the shortcut passing Taffee’s house, GZ by his own description never loses sight of TM until TM runs and GZ immediately jumps out of the car near the T cut-through.

      • longtimegeek says:

        jd – You do awesome work. It’s been a long time since I’ve read it closely. I should go back and re-read it carefully to refresh my memory.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I wondered about that too. Of course, GZs interview would have to precede taking that evidence, unless there was an obvious blood spill. Would there have been a decision by someone in the police department to not bother to try to gather blood samples from the alleged headbashing on the sidewalk because of the rain?

      • Malisha says:

        I believe the decision was made “by someone in the police department to not bother to try to gather blood samples” [or anything else] because by the time they had George in the squad car, they were already agreed, notified, or whatever it was, that he was not going to be held accountable for a crime. They weren’t collecting evidence because they believed, as did Taaffe and others, that it would “blow over.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        This could possibly be true, Malisha. But theoretically speaking, if your theory is not the case (and it may not be simply because SPD continued their investigation) SPD wouldn’t have known the full story when GZ was placed in the squad car, so a decision to not gather blood or DNA samples from the sidewalk would theoretically have to come later. Or this may be simply another mistake that SPD made.

    • nediva says:

      Wow, that’s so true dee dee is the key. If you take her side into account the fight started the moment martins phone was dropped. If you think about it marker 7 let’s us know that George was far from the T when the confratation started.

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