(H/T to Two Sides to a Story for providing the link)
Wednesday, February 19, 2014.
Good morning:
The jury hung 9-3 to convict Michael Dunn of murdering Jordan Davis. The three holdouts bought his self-defense claim.
The jury convicted Dunn of three counts of attempted second degree murder and one count of shooting into a vehicle based on the 4 shots that Dunn fired at the fleeing Durango. The three holdouts believed he “crossed the line” and was no longer shooting in self-defense when he fired those shots.
The 3 holdouts for self-defense probably provide a sufficient excuse for Angela Corey to decide not to retry Dunn for the Jordan Davis murder.
The inability of this jury to convict Dunn serves as a stark reminder that white guys can get away with killing unarmed black male teenagers in Florida by fleeing the scene, ordering a pizza, waiting to see if the police arrest them, and simply tell them that they thought they saw a gun and felt threatened.
The Zimmerman and Dunn cases stand for the proposition that it’s OK to murder unarmed black teenagers and lie about it.
Just don’t miss or you will spend the rest of your life in prison.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Does anyone have a link of CNN interview of juror 8?
Found this
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/justice/florida-loud-music-case/?c=&page=0
What a misguided soul. This is where 40 pages of convoluted jury instructions come into play compared to the KISS system. She wants Justice for Jordan. She thinks race wasn’t part of it. She thinks Dunn was a “good guy.” Ye gods … where to begin?
Above comment showed in up wrong place.
X2 Malisha, precisely Sandy referst o “by defiition” and “Just because race wasn’t discussed”
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/justice/florida-loud-music-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
b
By definition, race is never a factor when an armed white man kills an African American child or teen. Race is only a factor when violent scary African American teens or children victimize the white race, causing them to have to stand their ground and fight for their country. And paint pictures of flags. And become scapegoats. Which (scapegoats) is a come-down of sorts from being horses’ asses.
LOL! Very well said. Also, just because race wasn’t discussed during the deliberations doesn’t mean it wasn’t a factor in Dunn’s actions that day.
I’m watching this juror #8.on CNN. That is one odd lady, she thought Dunn was a nice man. geez!
Apparently, she voted NG.
White, racist and dumb as a box of rocks?
I thought I read that she was black, wanted 2nd degree murder, and thought Dunn was a nice guy who just made some poor decisions that day.
Ah yes. I just saw a clip. She’s black, she wanted 2nd degree. She’s not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
X 2, Malisha. Precisely, Sandy.
She’s decidedly black, not white. Seems to have gotten the gist of Dunn’s guilt, but undermined her own common sense with silly on-air remarks like Dunn’s a “good guy.” Guess that’s all relative. What kind of guys does she mostly know?
Where is the video of juror 8?
21 years old too
Black 21 year old girl
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/justice/florida-loud-music-case/?c=&page=0
Just took an unhurried look at Dunn’s “Black Friday” letter. I think he had help penning this, and that it was designed to deceive.
Within the first two graphs he sets up to both place and deflect blame.
To avoid looking like a clod who sends his girlfriend in for wine while sitting on his ass, Dunn claims the SUV was “parked too close” to the line “of its space for me to exit.”
Snort.
Only after parking, he says, did the “blaring” start up. So how long was Rhonda dilly-dallying in the parked car before going into the store? She claimed he said he hated that “thug music” and that she said “I know.” He claimed he said “rap crap.”
Did either of these two dunderheads consider reparking their car elsewhere … or just moving on without the gas station wine?
I think Dunn was spoiling for trouble and deliberately squeezed into that space. i
On any retrial, the State needs to eviscerate Dunn with details of that letter.
While Fred works on the post for this morning:
Sleepy Man Banjo Boys – Foggy Mountain Breakdown
So good! Mercí Crane.
Then stir it up
Another gem of perfection from Studio One.
Good morning everyone! We are working on getting a new post up for this morning!
Jeopardy Contestants Painfully Avoid Black History Questions As Long As They Can
Speed up to 15:56
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/19/jeopardy-black-history-month_n_4815162.html
posted this at xena’s place. here’s the thug music i’d have been blasting at 17. written about a thug and performed before i live audience of convicted thugs, this was the first album i purchased, albeit with significant help from my daddy, as i was 5.
my question — would dunn be humming along or grabbing his gun while my big mouth told him that it’s a free damn country and i can turn my amp up as loud as i fucking want and if he has a problem he could call the goddamn cops. because that is exactly what i’d say at 49 as i would at 17.
note — this is exactly why i do not have a problem with the prosecution saying that JD had a ‘big mouth’. i had one too so does just about every other 17 year old kid i know or have known. IT’S WHY I’m HERE on this blog, dammit! the thing is, we don’t get to shoot folks for having a big mouth or playing thug music, or i’d have never made it to 20.
Lol me neither @Fauxy
Great comments & great video.
To digress, do you see that skinny black haired guitar player picking the lead? That’s Carl Perkins, his brother Luther who passed just a bit before this concert had that job and Carl filled in. That Perkins tone man. Look at the band that night, legendary greatness all around!
Johnny Cash – vocal, Acoustic guitar
June Carter Cash – vocal
Carter Family – vocals, Autoharp, Guitar
Marshall Grant – bass guitar
W.S. Holland – drums
Carl Perkins – electric guitar
Bob Wootton – electric guitar
The Statler Brothers – vocals
glad you liked it. i know the line up well. 🙂 you omitted cash on the ‘harmonicai’ as he called it during ‘orange blossom special’. the same guy who made this (carefully restoring ancient video and syncing it to high quality audio from the live album, did an awesome job. check out his ‘orange blossom special’ if you’ve a mind, elijah.
I’m on that faux! And for the record my greatest musical loss of 2013 was Mr. George Jones. He Stopped Loving Her Today..
oh and a trivia note regarding maybelle carter … first person to play the electric guitar on the radio.
my grandmother was singing and playing basically the same carter family tunes and some gospel on atlanta radio stations during the 30s 🙂
E
Excuse me, You guys don’t know the 1st thing about the Carter Family. I do , in reality, the Carter family has relied for yrs. of crap, pure bullshit, to be something. June Carter Cash never could sing to save her own skinny ass, just because she wrote ” Ring of Fire” we are supposed to worship her. Never, ever ,I don’t think so .You guys are clueless about this country fucked up music. My aunt was married to Bill Monroe, the father of Bluegrass. Yea, Fred & Rachel, you two are on top of everything, keep up the good work. Now days all the country lovers are sickening POS’s. Me, I’ll always LOVE the Rolling Stones. Nobody will ever come close to the Glimmer Twins. It’s time to go down & rest & live to fight another day.
Sorry, Roseanne Cash is one of the best of all time/////// 7 Year Ache, Doesn’t get any better than that song. Seriously? How many of you guys know that song?
glimmer twins Keif Richards an Mick Jagger,?
I I R C…….
Great music. The eyes of the inmates have no joy. One seemed to have a hate that nothing could touch but most have a very deep sadness.
Sadness is the perfect descriptor & Johnny saw that & played right to it, I think why this performance stands the test of time is that he wasn’t playing for them, he was playing to them.
I’m pretty sure Dunn will get no hall of fame country concerts…maybe he can hum an old Tone Lôc song in the shower..Medina!
I posted this a few days ago but after I posted it, all posts I had read earlier were out of order with comments missing. Not sure if anyone had an opinion.
This is his Black Friday Letter.
It offers up more inconsistencies in his story. More lies. More “I had time to come up with something better so here it is”.
As I read it, Shakespeare’s “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” was on repeat in my head.
He mentions turned my head to the left, turned to the left, glanced back, turned back, facing forward, eyes front, still facing forward, I have to turn in my seat in order to see him as I asked that question, and finally (after getting gun) he again turned back to his left.
Like Zimmerman, he seemed to be making his story up to best fit his defense. He’s trying to make us believe he was even with the passenger’s front door and we all know different. Those first 3 shots were straight into the rear passenger door.
He mentions the two very menacing looking black men scowling at him angrily from the backseat. He repeats seeing them both. Now tell me, if he is even with the font door and the windows are up (or even down) is he going to have a clear view of both guys in the backseat? No. The front passenger headrest and door frames are going to obstruct his view of Leland Brunson. Even if he is turned in his seat!
BUT, the most telling lie is when he says, “By my fourth shot, the driver was back in the vehicle and was reversing out of the spot. THE FRONT PASSENGER DOOR MOVED IN FRONT OF ME and I stopped firing…”
If it was in front of him to start with, how could it move in front of him after the SUV started reversing??? Must be because he was even with the back door just like the Medical Examiner testified and evidence proved.
Am I seeing this wrong? Didn’t the jury get this letter?
I’m hoping Angela Corey retries but turns over the reins to Mr. Mantei. Maybe he won’t be on another case when the next trial comes up. Let him go after Dunn with the Thug Theory in plain sight and bring in all the letters he wants as evidence.
This is what happens in my dreamworld…oh yeah…and we have a enlightening powerpoint presentation/youtube presentation shown to the jury as only LLMPapa could create 🙂
I agree. Mr. Mantei is the best attorney on their team. He did an excellent job during the Zimmerman case. He was the only one who did a good job.
Now’s the time for prosecution to do a little explanatory video.
Mo. man charged with murder, kidnapping
http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/amber-alert-issued-for-missouri-girl/24549544
I believe Rhonda was a witness for the state because she didn’t have much of a choice: Testify and it better be truthful, or you’ll be charged with all sorts of stuff including perjury.
Strolla tried to get even by calling Jordan’s father as a witness, but that blew up in his face. Mr. Davis testified with dignity and truthfulness and Strolla came up empty.
Exactly To , relating this fact to Fogens case the prosecution should have called Shelly to the stand and ask her what she was doing the night of fogens hunt for Trayvon,their was no mentoring ,shopping she was not even home, most important why?????? That was a big game changer that night, fogen I told my wife I would protect her!! She wasn’t even there so what was he protecting her from? Frank taafee ? Did she even know that her gun killed trayvon , to this day she owns that gun, it is registered in HER name. Since the DOJ has that gun in their possession will remain there until her probation is over. Fogen does not legally own that gun. Fogen may think he has gamed the system by getting new guns but he will never get Shellie’s gun not even in the divorce settlement.
Shellie has finally admitted that Fogen is a Monster!! Shellie’s interview with Katie Couric 11/21/13
Makes ya wonder what the love of Dunns life Rhonda will change her five year plan for Dunn??????
I never understood why the State deposed Shelly shortly before the trial, but decided not to call her as a witness.
because they would have risked winning a conviction!!!
So why bother?
Why waste their time?
They made themselves look more suspicous waiting until the last minute to dipose her then not even using her or a lot of the witnesses (Jeremy).
follow
Rhonda witnessed her tippsy date fire into a car of Black Teenagers..
Instead of remaining in the store she bolted towards her wedding date,.
The guy whom had just gone postal at the car playing thug music .
Same guy whom opined he hated that genre of thug music/rapcrap .depending on what putrid filth you choose to believe spilled from his toxic mouth that early evening.
She then proceeded to spend many many hours with this scaryman .
Whom offered to rhyme nor reason let alone expenation why.
Events transpired an she apparently was either non to conserned to seek clarification. Didn’t real give a shit he y hit me with a double rum an coke,
Or was so fragile an confused an overwhelmed with Puppy love .
The live of a fellow sentients being didn’t even register on her list of priorites.
No one being get shit faced .
No two don’t upset Michel heck I don’t mind him offing Black Boys but I don’t want that laser of hatred zeroed in on my person.
Seems to me Rhonda freely admitted on the stand her wedding date had lost it commited many crimes .
MNURDER
Attempted MURDER .
wRECKLESS ENDANGERMENT
Leaveing the scene of a crime .
AS ABOVE FLEEING TO AVOIS ARREST,
An apart fron the initial 4 shots a Jorda Rhonds was a party to everything after the fact that transpired
Therfore she Is guilty off aiding an abetting a fugitive evade capture /arrest/.
After the fact.
An to the Murder of Jordon She also withheld evidence after she heard the shots .Learned later through tv he had died .
An skeedaddled out of dodge to dodge consiqencies for there depraved after wedding entertainment.
He didn’t get invited to hos sons Stag .
So he bagged himself a back 50.
My point being if Rhonda were a man a close friend of DUNN..DOES HE LILE IT UP THE BUM.
Or A Gay lovers of dunnup the bum called Rhondald .
An this secenario unfolded would dunnupthebums gay lover be getting a pass
I no he would get a pass on the dhrama queen little girl act beein queer an all.
But would he get a pass a wittnesss?
Me thinks no methinks he would be SAT In the dock as a co acussed.
An I believe Rhonda should also be ensconsed there as this trial prossesed
Does anyone get my drift .
At the best her silence could have helped him walk.
Silance through fear intimidation or because you also wanted it to disappear makes her as bas as him In minen eyes /
And my Better half concours with me.
An the last time that happened was 19can…teen!
😀 It’s a good thing that Rhonda answered questions honestly. Too bad she wouldn’t open up more. I wouldn’t doubt there were other less fatal but telling incidents.
It all depends on who runs against her 2016.
Thought as much but was not sure.
She won a new term last time because no one challenged her.
Thank you, I was unaware that she ran unopposed. So, it will be very interesting to see what happens.
Grade-School Coach Jailed After Missing Girl’s Body Found in Home
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-jail-man-murder-charge-mo-abduction-22577905
frankly its time for Corey to go, this doesn’t look good on her, she has now failed to put away two people who outright murdered someone and the press is taking notice along with others, the outrage is very real here, and its not going away, and remember Frank the racist Taaffee knew the vote was split 5-1 and announced it on Nancy Grace before the verdict
Would that be difficult, since she was elected and is serving a term until 2016?
Well it was a common sense gues…1 of the jurors was hispanic
It’s ironic that Corey had Bernie and Guy throw Piglet’s case to appease the racists then Corey elevated herself as lead attorney in his case in an attempt to redeem her reputation and three racist jurors prevented it.
Now she’s being blamed.
What’s the old saying–if lie down with dogs you’ll get up with fleas.
Question: Are the recorded jail calls, released yesterday, linked in the thread here somewhere?
This article refers to those calls:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/justice/florida-loud-music-case/
Sorry if I may have missed them, I have been hosting on my Arctic article at another site…
Recordings are at bottom (released yesterday)
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/michael-dunn-trial/2014/02/18/i-was-the-victim-michael-dunn-jailhouse-phone-call/5574135/
Okay great, I was looking for just the calls, without commentary, thank you!
Did the recordings at bottom of the page on link open for you?
I will go back and check, thank you. I only listened to the first three calls, I think, but did not listen to all of them.
I banned Dudley Sharp for deliberately misinterpreting the significance of questionable statistical studies in order to advance a right-wing-racist agenda.
I kind of wanted to be able to debunk his arguments, but I see your point.
What racists do is take raw per capita data and present it as truth. That is not how science works. Correlation does not equal causation.
Upstream I posted that Detroit has a murder rate of 48 per 100,000 vs Southfield, a 70% African American suburb on the border of Detroit that has a murder rate of 4.5 per 100,000. That is a ten fold reduction. And there are island neighborhoods within Detroit that are near 100% African American that rarely see a murder.
The big generator of murder in Detroit is very lucrative drug trade that is the result of a failed war on drugs that gives black market prices to things that cost nothing to produce, if supply was not interdicted. The same argument holds for the violence in Mexico.
If skin color was a determinant of violence, then why does the city where my wife was born, Dakar, Senegal, have, in many years not one murder?
Or why does Moscow have a murder rate of 20 per 100,000, which is higher than the murder rate for black Americans in the USA, which is 17 per 100,000?
As a side note, one of my wife’s childhood friends from the Liberte 6 section of Dakar knew five languages and, because one was Russian, got a VISA to teach Russians French, in Moscow.
Sadly, racist skin heads beat him to death shortly after he arrived.
Don’t let me stop you from further debunking his arguments.
I’ve seen these “studies” and bogus arguments about them presented at various mainstream media sites lately.
A thorough debunking is always a good thing and we can learn some more about the manipulative and deceitful efforts of the racist right-wing-hate-machine to cloak their racism with the appearance of legitimacy.
It is probably worth a thread. someday, to show how racists manipulate data. Black Americans have long been tarnished as drug users due to presenting conviction rates as evidence of usage, although that data violates every standard of collection. In short, you are letting the legal system, from police to judge, collect the sample. AMA studies, which use random sampling and other methods to remove bias, show that illegal drug usage amongst Black Americans is the same on a per capita basis as white Americans. Therefore, the proper interpretation of an incarceration rate of Black Americans at a per capita rate of 3.8 times White Americans is that there is a large bias in the justice system.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics…”
– attributed to Mark Twain, but not confirmed
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics.html
OMG HORRIBLE! I’m sorry for your loss; I wish you long life.
I hope Dudley watches the video I posted. It explains how greed of the planters created the institutionalization of bigotry into a racist structure that is constantly being perfected.
Since Dudley is a troll, I doubt he or she is open to learning anything that might threaten to puncture his insane delusion of white supremacy and black inferiority.
If Dudley has any intelligence at all, or any curiosity, he should take a look. Hope springs eternal that people can have an open mind and become enlightened. (except when my cynicism takes over…sigh)
Thanks, Professor, because that is exactly what he was doing. Statistics can be used to put forth any agenda. I learned how to manipulate them in grad school many years ago. That is when I stopped counting on them for any real validation. Do the statistics go back and remove all the convictions of the men and women who were wrongfully convicted? Are convictions based on false and/or coerced confessions counted as valid? How many of the white men and women who are not profiled in Stop & Frisk operations get a free pass for drug possession, probation violations, and other crimes? How does Fogen fit in, because even though the jury did not decide so, he is a murderer. Do the statistics take into account that Black men and women are overcharged when they are indicted, while their white counterparts in most cases are not? I can think of at least 15 additional charges that Dunn should have had.
The bottom line is that Trayvon Martin was killed based on a false perception. As was Jordan Davis. The false interpretation of statistics will not change that. The perception is that young black men who listen to rap are thugs. The perception also seems to be be that all young Black men have a criminal record. They of course do not.
Would the right wingers find the young man in the video below to be a threat? After all, he has lots of tattoos. He used to be a hip hop artist. He dresses strangely. When he was younger, he did not live a saintly life. Would Zimmerman feel that he didn’t belong in RTL? Or would he go up to him and welcome him to the neighborhood?
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/vanilla-ice-named-citizen-year-florida-town/ndTcY/
good points…wonder how many wrongly accused black folks are in prison because of people like Susan Smith, the guy who recently said a black guy shot him in the stomach, the runaway bride, etc.
I have to imagine that most of the time black people are wrongly accused the lies are not discovered.
Take an African American convict who has spent, say, ten years in prison for an armed robbery he did not commit. He’s eventually freed by the work of maybe 25 law students in a legal clinic for exonerations, working 8 years on the project. Once he’s released the file gets closed. Look at the file:
1. There was a crime committed by the cop who refused to check out the alibi he offered when first interviewed; that crime was never charged of course but it was a white-on-black crime;
2. A crime was committed by two witnesses who identified him although they were actually unsure and their original description did not fit his description; their description was “educated” by the detective who wanted to make the case a winner. That crime was not charged and was a white-on-white crime.
3. A crime was committed by a jailhouse snitch who testified to get his own sentence reduced, offered by a prosecutor who knew his case wouldn’t fly without a “confession” — two crimes committed, one black-on-black and one white-on-black;
4. Three crimes were committed during the appeals process and the habeas corpus processes in which DNA evidence was requested to exonerate the convict. Things were “missing” and things were “lost” and nobody was charged with those crimes although they were all deprivations of a convict’s constitutional rights under “color of state law” in violation of the Civil rights Act. Not charged. Never admitted. But proven.
5. There were probably more crimes committed in the course of the ten years. Yet the statistics are not even retroactively changed when the man is exonerated ten years later; his original conviction was counted as “black-on-white” at the inception and it still forms the statistics “we” use to assess what’s going on in our society.
A new white/black experiment with crime:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/watch-the-difference-between-a-white-guy-and-a-black-guy-com?bff
I posted this upstream, but it is good to add it to yours.
Yes, that’s a good one too.
Ok so lets agree that blacks commit more crimes….what happens to them wgen they are caught??…they are CHARGED and CONVICTED…….
I was listening to a progrsm severel seeks ago….this lady said that the cuties with the hughest incaceration rate are akso the cities wuth the highest rate of violent crimes….this means that incaceration rate and the prison system CONTRIBUTES TO VIOLENT CRIMES…..so u put a young man in prison for marijuana possesion…he gets raped in jail and treated like an animal by the prison officers….such a person is no longer a human being when they get out…they don’t care about their life and they don’t give a krap about your life….others may come out and are unable to find employment because of their record…….AND THE LADY ALSO STATED THAT CRIME RATE DOES NOT REFLECT INCACERATION RATE…..crime rate went down while incaceration rate went up do to privatization if the prison system….they promise the prvate owners that they would keep the orisons 90% filled
Oops due to privatization……wow so many errors
Hey I not like what’s taking placr in south Africa…how the white farmers are being treated, but look st the country and it’s history…all the blacks land wrre taken away from them……everyone knows they were not even treated like animals……rather like objects and thhis was the 80’s and 90’s ….it is still fresh in their minds…..people should forgive, but how do you tight the wrong…..taking away the land from the whites is not gonna solve it….the land should be shared but u can’t dtive the business men out of the country
What are the chances that an all black jury would find Dunn not guilty if Dunn was a black man and the teenagerin the SUV were all white…..I wonder??….are whites more racists?….oh and I’m black……and I am simply asking a question…i don’t sre skin color….I love people no matter the ethnicity……what are the stats on cases, where black men go free because black jurors voted not guilty when the evidence says the opposite??
the chances are not very good…a black jury would convict a black man of killing white kids under these circumstances
Thanks for that & Ray Kelly is another anti-black authoritarian bigot. He had an agenda in NYC. Whatever study he came up with, I would take with a big pile of salt.
There would never be an all black jury. It’s a hypothetical & it’s hard to say what would happen in that circumstance.
Just stop.
thank you.
did they vote on the lessers?
No. As long as some jurors wanted a not guilty verdict, there’s no point in voting on the lessers. Not guilty means not guilty of any murder charge… M1, M2, and not manslaughter. They could only start voting on M1, M2, or manslaughter if all 12 could agree that it wasn’t self defense.
I believe that the law specifies that the included charges can ONLY be considered if the primary charge (M1) is rejected. Then they move on down the chain. Since there was never agreement on the M1 charge, they could not procede to vote on the others. Although, one might wonder if a deadlocked jury–despite instructions–might discuss whether there would be any possibility of agreement on the lesser charges and thereby swing the vote.
I agree totally. They were instructed to take each charge in order. First look at M1. If they can’t agree on that one, look at M2, etc. But before they could accept or reject the primary charge (M1) they had to first accept or reject the self defense claim. And it has to be unanimous. So they were stuck there and never could get past it because some jurors wanted not guilty of murder because they felt the killing was justifiable homicide due to the self defense claim.
If they could have rejected the self defense claim, that would mean they were all in agreement that it was murder. Then they could work on deciding which degree of murder was appropriate, starting with M1.
Yep.
Fred:
Help me out here. I am confused about something.
On the murder chanrge, were there not lesser includeds. second degree, manslaughter?
And wouldn’t they have voted on all three?
Murder2 and Manslaughter were indeed lesser included charges but self defense is a legal defense against all three. Evidently three jurors accepted Dunn’s claim that he believed that Jordan Davis posed an imminent threat to his life (or at least they didn’t believe that the state had disproved his claim).
Is racism owned by any particular race? We have discussed at length the racism practiced by all white people, and as it has been pointed out, all white people regardless of whether they admit to it or not are inherently racist… Might I suggest that some people should perhaps remove the tree that grows in their eye before they attempt to call someone else a racist simply because of the color of their skin… To encourage you to look inward to see if you are equally guilty of racial profiling, I will post a link to an article that discusses racial in a different direction than we see in this nation. Can we resolve the problem of racism? Not until we can remove the racist from each and every one of our own hearts and minds… When we begin to treat our fellow man/woman as we expect to be treated ourselves then perhaps we will see the end of racism, but not before…. I know many of you will simply ignore these words, and others will not accept them and will either openly criticize or deny them, that is your right…
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/arnold-ahlert/the-gruesome-reality-of-racist-south-africa/
Is racism owned by any particular race?
The issue is power.
Liza, So does that answer mean that if we had some little green men from Mars here that had power over us that only they would be the ones that were racist?
Do you really not understand the issue of power and how it relates to racism? Sorry, we’re done. Ask someone else.
Sorry that you chose that path, but it would seem strange that you would make such a statement in such a manner… Have a good evening….
Racism is a systemic problem based on the idea that there are very significant behavioral genetic traits linked to skin color. Therefore, the only way to solve that problem is to become a traitor to whatever raise the system assigns to you.
Once one does that, they can be they individual they want to be and let the individual be what they want to be.
Shit, all Trayvon Martin wanted to be was another young dude taking a stroll while talking to his friend on the phone.
Instead, Shitheel mandated that he was a suspect. And, IMO, that mandating was based on his skin color.
Sure, we can use probability.
I figure the probability that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon due to his skin color at 90%
If Trayvon had been white, it drops to 5%.
And my rough numbers can be tested. Just show a video to a random sample of white Americans with a white and black male dressed the same and ask – which one is up to no good?
And it ain’t like it has not been done.
MDH, If you read the link, would you say that the roles would have been reversed had the murders happened there? Would you say that in that location black privilege is visible and in control, much like white privilege is claimed to be in control of all white people’s minds in this country? I post on one site, that the white members have called me a N***** Lover and the blacks call me a racist, because I treat people as they treat me, I really know no one that I actually hate. Some people I choose not to be around, because they are too narrow minded to realize that we have a problem in this nation, yet each side seems to wish to place blame on the other side… I know one thing, the only person that I can control is myself, I have chosen to take a path that does not judge people merely due to race or gender, but like I said, I can only control my actions…
The idealist solution that would produce the least violence in South Africa is that all people, let bygones be bygones, and no longer ascribe to racial loyalties based on skin color.
Black supremacy would be a system wherein dark skin is deemed to correlate to genetic traits that make the individual having them superior to others.
The crimes in the article seem to be revenge based manipulation of proletarians by an elite seeking to grab land
Arguably, racism was invented to get proletarians to kill so that the elite can live a life of wealth extraction while making cheeky remarks about the losers of all color who toil for them. WW1 was a stupid conflict where workers killed each other to prove the elan of the English, French and German races so that their elite could steal more land from dark skinned people.
White supremacy has an impact on Africa that remains. In Senegal, lighter skin is seen as better.
Women have an insecurity issue related to white standards of beauty.
As this tune opines:
“*A note here about why the black homicide offending rate is so much higher than the rate for whites. Contrary to the arguments of many on the right — and especially white nationalist types — that the disproportionate rate of violent crime (and especially murder) is due to something either genetic or cultural about black folks specifically, the facts say otherwise.
According to the research by actual criminologists (which is to say, not by racist internet trolls), socioeconomic variables explain the difference between white and black violence rates, and where economic conditions are comparable between whites and blacks, there are no significant racial crime differences. In fact, the correlation between economic variables and crime are remarkably consistent from one society to the next. Evidence gathered from more than thirty countries has found that race and ethnicity have far less to do with crime than these environmental factors.
Please note, it is not that poverty in the abstract causes crime — or is, in and of itself, even the main correlative factor for crime — but rather, the kinds of conditions associated with extreme poverty that are to blame. Although whites in the U.S. also suffer poverty, black poverty is more severe and more likely to correlate with crime. Seven out of ten poor whites live in stable, mostly non-poor neighborhoods, while eighty-five percent of the black poor live in mostly poor areas. Blacks are three times more likely to live in extreme poverty than whites (less than half the poverty line), and six times more likely to live in concentrated poverty neighborhoods. Indeed, three-quarters of persons living in concentrated poverty neighborhoods are people of color (powell, john, 2001. “Socioeconomic School Integration,” Poverty and Race Research Action Council Bulletin, 10: 6, November/December: 6).
“
Bettykath said this above cc.
“This comes out to about 1 white person out of every 277,000 who were killed by a black person in 2010.
any given black person is far more likely to be interracially murdered by a white person than that.
about 1 black person out of every 100,000 who were killed by a white person in 2010.
In other words, although interracial homicides are incredibly rare in either direction, any given black person in the United States is about 2.8 times more likely to be killed by a white person than any given white person is to be murdered by a black person.”
http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/nazis-cant-do-math-reflections-on-racism-crime-and-the-illiteracy-of-right-wing-statistical-analysis/
That come out to be that blacks are about twice as likely to murder whites as white are to murder blacks, on a per capita basis.
Since the 1970’s that has varied from about 2-3 times more likely.
The study which I linked discussed the Hispanic effect, which has lowered some of those numbers because arounf 1995 Hispanics were removed from the data and included with whites, nationally, with the federal crime reports.
I’ll sent the report to tim wise.
And the black criminals get their just punishment….so the focus shoukd be on preventing this kids from becomming criminals……
And the black criminals get their just punishment….and one more thing…the blacks who rob and kill whites…..these crimesare not about race…thry would do the same to another black individual
What makes you think that, ne?
great references.
Thank you.
I don’t know what sources tim Wise uses for his statistics but he doesn’t differentiate between “killing” and “murdering”. We don’t know how many of these homicides were in self defense. We also don’t know how many of these homicides were committed by police officers in the line of duty. Wise’s conclusions may be correct but his analysis is awfully sloppy.
Dave, self defense is very rare (death and no death). NRA would like people to believe the number is 2.5 million. They are wrong.
Exactly. You can throw in both self defense and justifiable police actions and it wouldn’t move the needle in the slightest. Tim Wise’s analysis was accurate and his conclusions were on point.
One thing propaganda does is to emphasize relative probability rates and ignore actual.
For perspective, the motor vehicle death rate is about 11 per 100,000 per annum.
And raw data about race does not factor in context. I grew up in Detroit and, IMO, at least 50% of black male murders stem from the very lucrative drug trade that is ultimately the result of a failed dug war that creates black market prices for good that, in a free market, would cost little. In fact, the most dangerous person in Detroit to one not involved in drugs is an addict. I don’t know how many here on this forum know what living in a drug hood is like. Put is this way, a dealer will front an addict with the proviso that they pay at a future date. Miss that date and the addict now has a death clock ticking away. So they will do whatever it takes to get that money. If it is killing another, they will do it. For the man who collects for the man is very frightening, indeed.
Detroit has a black male murder rate of about 50 per 100,000 per annum. Does this prove they are inherently murder prone?
In 2011, Southfield Michigan had a murder rate of 5.6 per 100,000 per annum.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Southfield-Michigan.html
In the 2010 census, Southfield was 70% African American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southfield,_Michigan
My point is that racism, by strict definition, is believing there are inherent genetic traits base on race.
So racial propagandists like to use raw numbers and relative rates to get people to believe that certain traits are inherent.
If that was true, then why does Moscow, Russia have a murder rate 20 times that of Dakar, Senegal?
*In many years, Dakar has had not one murder. It is the poorest city I have ever visited and the safest to walk the streets on.
I think Dudly raises points that need to be vetted.
A lot of what we assume is not critically thought out.
If poverty was a sole driver of violence, then what happened in Dakar?
“To say that white people’s lives are endangered by black folks, as though it were some widespread social truth, is to ignore the facts in the service of one’s prejudices and paranoiac fears. According to the most comprehensive data set ever compiled regarding homicides in America, which breaks perpetrators and victims down by race and ethnicity, the numbers of black-on-white homicides, and the percentage of homicides by African Americans that involve white victims are both much smaller than one would expect. And although interracial homicide in either direction is quite rare, the fact is, any given black person in the U.S. is almost three times as likely to be murdered by a white person as any given white person is to be murdered by someone who is black.”
http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/nazis-cant-do-math-reflections-on-racism-crime-and-the-illiteracy-of-right-wing-statistical-analysis/
ANY GIVEN BLACK PERSON IN THE US IS THREE TIMES AS LIKELY TO BE MURDERED BY A WHITE PERSON AS ANY GIVEN WHITE PERSON IS TO BE MURDERED BY SOMEONE WHO IS BLACK
My point, as discussed, was the per capita discrepency.
As Wise stated:
The fact is, precisely because the black homicide offending rate is so much higher than the rate for whites (as noted above, 6.8 times higher),
That is the major problem that I ws discussing, which many think had an influence on Dunn (which I think unlikely).
If we are into racist notions about crime, I guess the question could be asked why are white homicide rates so high when this is the most advantaged group in the country.
Shouldn’t white homicide and crime rates be much lower than they are?
Think about this: Fogen killed Trayvon Martin but that did NOT get recorded in the statistics as a white-on-black crime.
OK?
Only because Trayvon Martin was DEAD did the whole thing avoid being recorded as a black-on-white crime (assault, if Trayvon Martin had been able to survive the “encounter”), in fact. If, for instance, Trayvon Martin lived and had a heart transplant and later recuperated in jail awaiting trial on assault charges, by the time he was tried (represented by the public defender) he would have been convicted and incarcerated.
The statistics have nothing to do with the realities of our institutionalized racism and our corrupt and vicious courts.
Dudley, you are boring me.
Thank you Cc.
TIM WISE ON CRIME STATISTICS:
“White-on-white crime (which term doesn’t even exist in our racial or criminological lexicon), is far more prevalent than its black-on-white (or even black-on-black) equivalent, numerically speaking, and yet to white nationalist types, we should draw no conclusions from this at all. White folks can commit mass murder, kidnap, rape, sexually mutilate, or even cannibalize people (like Jeffrey Dahmer, for instance), and represent no one but their solitary selves. Charles Manson is never expected to serve as a stand-in for white folks writ large.”
“Despite claims by right-wingers (both mainstream and overtly white supremacist) that violent crime by African-Americans is out of control — and that blacks are criminally victimizing whites at massive and disproportionate rates — the facts say otherwise. As I show in the below analysis:
* Only about 1 percent of African Americans — and no more than 2 percent of black males — will commit a violent crime in a given year;
* Even though there are more black-on-white interracial crimes than white-on-black interracial crimes, this fact is not evidence of anti-white racial targeting by black offenders. Rather, it is completely explained by two factors having nothing to do with anti-white bias: namely, the general differences in rates of criminal offending, and the rates at which whites and blacks encounter one another (and thus, have the opportunity to victimize one another). Once these two factors are “controlled for” in social science terms, the actual rates of black-on-white crime are lower than random chance would predict;
* No more than 0.7 percent (seven-tenths of one percent) of African Americans will commit a violent crime against a white person in a given year, and fewer than 0.3 (three-tenths of one percent) of whites will be victimized by a black person in a given year;
* Whites are 6 times as likely to be murdered by another white person as by a black person; and overall, the percentage of white Americans who will be murdered by a black offender in a given year is only 2/10,000ths of 1 percent (0.0002).
”
http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/race-crime-and-statistical-malpractice-how-the-right-manipulates-white-fear-with-bogus-data/
off-topic, sad:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/19/missing-girl-abduction/5603679/
horrible…I think this is the little girl who was on my twitter feed…I was hoping she would be found alive
Jon Stewart always wraps things up so nicely:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/19/jon-stewart-michael-dunn_n_4814652.html
Crane-Station:
That thread maxed out.
Somehow, I accessed the whole study. Now it has limited access, without paying.
The authors are easy to contact, if you want to find out funding and maybe a free copy.I haven’t seen anyhting questionable in their findings.
I think you are presuming some type of cause and effect based upon skin color.
They don’t do that.
Their findings only represent crime rate data comparing crimes committed by races/ethnicities and a comparison of those rates between different races/ethnicities.
They make no causal findings based upon skin color as a deciding factor in commission of crimes.
Then why do they bring it up in the first place?
Crane:
That is pretty obvious if you read the context.
I am posting, not hand feeding you. You have to make some effort.
When Blacks are targeted, more Blacks will be arrested even if there are more whites committing the same crimes. Blacks are less likely to have the resources to fight the charges that too frequently are overcharged and sometimes even bogus. I know of cases where the PD has recommended a plea deal for defendants who are not guilty. This is count one. The next time this person is charged he is considered a repeat offender, never mind that he really didn’t commit a crime.
I don’t think anyone here will argue that more Blacks end up in jail, but when the scales of justice are weighted, the numbers only prove out point: there is little to no justice for people of color. By that I mean not just Blacks but also Native Americans and Latinos which also populate our jails in numbers disproportionate to the population as a whole.
To better understand how bigotry was institutionalized into racism, watch at least the first hour of the video. The next 3 hours are also informative, but the first hour is eyeopening.
In a new trial can prosecutors/defense use the previous mistrial’s testimony?
yes.
gracias dudley.
Dunn’s a scumbag liar. Period. On all fronts. About calling law enforcement when actually the loosely-classified “LE” called him about a social opp, and just about everything else that could be named.
But at this point, I want Dunn sentenced big-time, stuffed into a cell and shunned by the media and public like yesteryear’s stalest news.
We can memorialize Jordan in other ways other than a pricey retrial that could amp up the recasting of Dunn as a martyr for white racist causes.
Does anyone know what kind of rep Judge Healey has on the sentencing front? Is he known as a softy? Middle of the road? A hardliner?
If Healey goes for more than the minimum on at least the three “attempted” counts, I’d view that as a big win for Jordan’s justice.
P.S. I understand the new word for nasty white trash is “wigger.”
Certainly appropriate for FoDungen, as in that wigger FoDungen.
I think that is one lie he’s not likely to tell on the stand again–knowing how easily it can be refuted.
So, he will have to come up with a new answer to the repeated question about why, at any given point, he did not call the police. His standard answer throughout was “I called police the next day when I got back home.”
Only one reason he didn’t call the police, he was in the wrong.
Consciousness of guilt.
I really think it takes a willing gymnast leap of twisted reasoning to reach any other conclusion.
With some many cases it comes down to common sense, which many seem to lack and they seem to get on juries sometimes.
His answers previously given still stand and his testimony as a witness can be impeached using prior inconsistent statements.
Does anybody think it was the fault of the prosecutors, for not presenting a better case?
State presented an excellent no-brainer case. But even excellence can be improved upon for jurors who lack a keen sense of the obvious. .
They did a crappy job with jury selection & trying to put a human face on Jordan Davis.
The 3 jurors didn’t believe the witnesses, either. They had some kind of bias which made killing Jordan justified in their minds.
OTOH, Angela Corey has no motivation to convict a white law abiding guy of murdering a black teen.
She has to protect SYG & evil white male supremacy. SYG is for whites only.
From reading here the only benefit I can see for not retrying him is that he’s sentenced & moved to a state penitentiary more quickly.
There will eventually percolate up a similar case which will be 2 whites or 2 browns, blacks, etc. It will be interesting to see how the lawyers present & the jurors react.
I’ve head nothing from serious political leaders to change SYG or at a minimum, reword or clarify it. It will not be a campaign issue. SYG is gun industry gold. Now everyone has a reason & excuse to use their new purchase. Follow the money..
Since the Zimmerman trial a version of SYG was introduced into the Ohio State Legislature. Ohio is already known for allowing CCW in bars (although not, oddly, in the State Capitol building).
Because it increases gun sales, this was the point of this law. Thars why the NRA/ALEKKK wrote it. It’s also part of the piecemeal resumption of Jim Crow.
Corey should retry but there should be some changes.
1. Did the defendant have fear the night he killed Jordan?
Yes, right after he fired 10 shots in the red SUV. He was afraid he would get caught. Evidence: Immediate and fast retreat from the scene, no 911 call to report armed thugs in an SUV.
2. When did the gun and the fear of Jordan show up?
Many hours later while he’s explaining self defense to the detectives. Evidence: Not a word of a weapon (or his fear?) to the love of his life or anyone else, no 911 call.
3. As to premeditation, Dunn fired the first 3 shots into the rear door. There was no return fire. He then fired 3 more shots at the same place. They ended up in the front door only because the car was moving. His intent was to kill Jordan. It is immaterial that Jordan was killed in the first volley; Dunn didn’t know that and he resumed fire at Jordan. This is an act of rage, not fear.
I can’t past Dunn lying about calling Police, that places doubt on his story.
Bad enough that Dunn lied to the police, but he also lied to the jury while under oath and the State proved it with his cell phone bill and the testimony of his fiancee.
If that’s not a reason to disbelieve his claim of self-defense, based on seeing a phantom-shotgun that police didn’t find and no one else saw, I don’t what would be.
It would be interesting to know exactly what the three did believe. Were they holding on to “reasonable doubt” based on the cloud produced by the defense in pointing out that dumpsters in the area were not immediately searched? It would seem that this can be countered by pointing out the time lag before Dunn made his claim, as well as the timeline between the shooting and the SUV’s return. Also by stressing the lack of any return fire from the SUV (‘course if it was a stick, it would be hard to fire it in any case).
Or did they believe that the door opened and Jordan stepped out? Again, this might be countered by (in addition to the eye-witness testimony) such evidence as the distance between the two vehicles–which did not leave Dunn enough room to comfortably leave his car. Exactly what kind of attack might have been carried out in that space?
If there is a retrial, I think that everything needs to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb to hit double-hard on any weaknesses that might justify any verdict other than “guilty.”
John Guy didn’t do very well on cross. The objections seemed to trip him up.
It appears very difficult to believe anything Dunn said.
But all the defense needs is a teeny bit of reasonable doubt from 1 juror.
That is why i find that 9-3, or better, jury verdics, with a minimum 75%-25% super majority, should be the criminal standard for a guilty verdict.
As we can see, it is all too easy to get idiots or those with an agenda on the jury, even with smart prosecutors, much less stupid ones.
Problem being, the doubt in this case doesn’t appear to be “reasonable.”
lurker:
Maybe i wasn’t clear enough.
That was, exactly, my point.
the child safety locks bullshit .they were off the kids say they were on.
Would not they have been turned off during the investigation.
I hope he is retried for murder the verdict was a slap in the face to JD ‘s parents and an insult.
That would scare me that we’d only have one sane non-racist on the jury. I’d rather see the trial hung, than have “them” win by a majority.
To anyone who can point me to the video, as I cant find it. Y’all we’re talking about dung looking at his dad after the verdict, does anyone have a link? tia
If you go to various sites that have the Dunn trial videos, check the one in which the verdict is read on 2/15. YouTube is one place that has these – and they are here in previous threads about the Dunn trial.
Or lots of UNREASONABLE “DOUBT” from 1 juror.
Racism vs Reality
As a rule, folks, be they black, white, Hispanic, etc know that blacks, per capita, are much more likely to commmit crimes against whites than visa versa.
That is reality, knowledge.
“There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start to think about robbery and then look around and see it’s somebody white and feel relieved”
Rev. Jesse Jackson
Is that racism? Of course not.
Racism or any prejudice is based upon ignorance that only because someone is different than you, in any way, that they are lesser than you.
Do jurorrs bring their biases and prejudices into the jury room? Of course. Everybody does.
Is it possible, that the 3 juroros who voted against conviction
1) did so only because of reasonable doubt? and/or
2) because they bought the defense? and/or
3) they were just racists? and/or
4) they were stupid?
I think any of the four or a combination of them are all possible.
Anything else is speculation, isn’t it?
They were both racist and ignorant. The two are inextricably linked.
As for whether or not they were too stupid to understand the physical evidence, it is certainly possible. But they didn’t want to understand the evidence. And they didn’t want to listen to any of the prosecution’s witnesses.
As for the one who switched? I’m guessing a small bit of a conscience that later caved to the more “persuasive” arguments being put forth by the two racists who he/she identified with.
I believe that anyone who thinks they know what those 3 were thinking are basing their conclusion of ignorance and a prejudice against those 3 based in ignorance, only because those 3 came to a decison, for which we have no idea what their foundation was.
I disagree. If you want these folks and their decisions explained and validated, then you should be listening to the gasbags on conservative talk radio. They will give you ten thousand reasons for why this makes perfect sense and why it is reasonable for them to hate everyone who isn’t like them.
But keep in mind that no problem ever gets solved until the problem is defined. Winning hearts and minds is nice to talk about, but it doesn’t actually work. People are what they are, leopards don’t change their spots.
I grew up in the Jim Crow South and I have never once in my entire life known a white racist who was anything other than a person who either hated or didn’t care about black people. And these people go to their graves without changing their beliefs. And they serve on juries.
uhh.
That was my point. They don’t know any more than you do.
Well, dudley, I predict that more jurors will speak out. Then perhaps we will both know more.
I had a really bizarre experience blogging a couple of years ago (early in the Fogen case) on the Jonathan Turley blog. Some alleged woman (when we blog how do we really know who has what name?) got involved in quite a primitive attack on me, starting with her pointing out that my “name” — “Malisha” — sounded very like “malicious.” I owned up immediately and said that was why I chose the screen-name. I told her that I was malicious towards racists, corrupt politicians, abusers, bullies, most judges (who fit into the above categories already) and various and sundry other kinds of a$$holes. Then she attacked me for what kids in my grade school used to call “n-lover” because I had a best friend who was one of the only three African Americans in town. (He WAS my best friend for a very good reason: of all the really big and strong kids in third grade, he was the only one who would defend me physically when my brother and/or I got attacked for being “Christ-killers.”)
This woman on the Turley blog attacked me in more and more foolish-sounding clearly racist rants, usually starting out with the news that she was “prejudiced” because she was forced to be “prejudiced” by all the very bad behavior of the “colored” people she knew who were always taking issue with her for telling them how bad they were. THEY were accusing her of racism simply because they were not accepting her well-meant correctional guidance. So she had to point out to them that WHITE PEOPLE never carried on as they did, complaining about mistreatment. WHITE people did not “whine” and get “chips on their shoulders” and all those colored people DID. (She explained that with all their carrying on about what to call them, she had just given up after all these years of trying to call them what they wanted to be called; she just didn’t KNOW any more what they were now demanding to be called.)
For some reason I kept answering her posts with non-hostile posts, emphasizing that her assumptions about Trayvon Martin were not accurate and that there was NO EVIDENCE that Trayvon Martin had done anything to necessitate his being shot through the heart.
Suddenly she turned around. Looking back, I think the whole thing was some kind of trolling because she started to “love” me and then got very kind of dependent and wrote and wrote and wrote. In the end, she just vanished. It was very weird.
If I were to think she was a real woman and this was a real correspondence, I would conclude that she was angry that people she had been taught to look down on were able to gain enough power and respect in the society (in which she had very little power and respect) to actually identify bad behavior on her part and object to it.
That was what I think really got to her.
You are going to have to back that up with statistics, which you cannot possibly do, especially when you consider the effects of white-collar crime on minorities, including blacks.
Fred:
We have all been speaking of violent crime, here. At least that is what I am speaking of, in the context of all of these discussions.
Yes?
I know of no one, involved in criminal justice that is not aware of these facts or similar ones.
Race, ethnicity and crime statistics.
For the White–Black comparisons, the Black level is 12.7 times greater than the White level for homicide, 15.6 times greater for robbery, 6.7 times greater for rape, and 4.5 times greater for aggravated assault.
For the Hispanic- White comparison, the Hispanic level is 4.0 times greater than the White level for homicide, 3.8 times greater for robbery, 2.8 times greater for rape, and 2.3 times greater for aggravated assault.
For the Hispanic–Black comparison, the Black level is 3.1 times greater than the Hispanic level for homicide, 4.1 times greater for robbery, 2.4 times greater for rape, and 1.9 times greater for aggravated assault.
From
REASSESSING TRENDS IN BLACK VIOLENT CRIME, 1980.2008: SORTING OUT THE “HISPANIC EFFECT” IN UNIFORM CRIME REPORTS ARRESTS, NATIONAL CRIME VICTIMIZATION SURVEY OFFENDER ESTIMATES, AND U.S. PRISONER COUNTS, DARRELL STEFFENSMEIER, BEN FELDMEYER, CASEY T. HARRIS, JEFFERY T. ULMER, Criminology, Volume 49, Issue 1, Article first published online: 24 FEB 2011
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2010.00222.x/pdf
So, what does the study have to say about poverty, or lack of opportunity, or living conditions as a factor in violent crime? Or, are they simply saying that skin color, and skin color alone, is directly related to violent crime, and the less white the skin is, the more violent people actually are?
If you read the study, which I advise, which is why I provided that link, there are some sociological discussions, to go along with the criminological ones.
Please read.
Is the whole article available, or just the abstract- first question. Second thing is, I will openly own that I do not believe there is any connection at all, linking skin color to violence. Who funded the study?
This is the degree of the problem in one city.
In New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.
New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirms Mac Donald’s facts. Blacks and Hispanics commit 96 percent of all crimes in the city, he says, but only 85 percent of the stop-and-frisks are of blacks and Hispanics.
http://www.humanevents.com/2013/07/19/black-americas-real-problem-isnt-white-racism/
What is your real point?
Seriously. Complete this sentence:
The more white the skin,_____________________.
Dudley aren’t black kids arrested more often and railroaded more often therefore convicted.
How can a real census be taken of what is really the truth with a racist justice system from bottom to top.
These for profit prisons need to be filled you know.We must make sure the rich get richer.
Who else to fill them with but minorities and underprivileged.
Frankly, I have zero interest in reading some article spewing about “black violent crime,” and “sorting out the hispanic effect.”
And I could care less what the stop and frisk mayor’s opinion is either.
You know why? Because bullshit ‘studies’ like that lead to bullshit sentences like this one in Texas, which is so far beyond the pale, that even the prosecutor thinks it is wrong:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/adriancarrasquillo/a-man-was-sentenced-to-death-because-hes-black-and-was-just
. . .with a straight face.
Crane:
Ignorance is not bliss. You presume with no evidence, the same type of disease that fuels prejudice and racism.
Being better educated means reading more, not less.
For example, re: Duane Buck.
Was anything in your linked article true?
You will never know, because, it appears, you would rather cling to your bias rather than look for the truth.
Bad philosophy that you would just accept the bull that your bias likes, but reject the bull that your bias doesn’t like.
I recommend rejecting all bull.
Here ya go, Fact check to your hearts delight (which I highly recommend)
Duane Buck & the False Claims of Racism: More Deceptions by Death Penalty Opponents
http://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/11/duane-buck-false-claims-of-racism-more.html
I have studied that case and written about it. You are spewing right wing bullshit and drawing unwarranted conclusions that do not reflect reality.
Your studies aren’t valid either. They do not even comply with APA standards for professional peer reviewed publications.
Therefore, I am banning you.
It’s a good thing I went out on a jog. I’ll just leave it at that.
Thanks for that & Ray Kelly is another anti-black authoritarian bigot. He had an agenda in NYC. Whatever study he came up with, I would take with a big pike of salt.
thank you professor…
and the daily “crimes” that police commit against black people which of course are never prosecuted or charged including harassment, assault, murder, etc
dudley–I used to argue this regularly with a crew of knuckle-heads on a discussion board. Your “reality” comes from statistics that are based on criminal convictions. As such, they are only as reliable as the law enforcement and criminal justice systems from which they come. And they deal only with certain types of crime (crimes of violence, for instance). As the professor points out, they do not take into account a wide variety of white collar crimes (the Atlanta school cheating case, for instance) in which the real victims are numerous, but uncounted. Who are the criminals and victims, for instance, in poisoning the public water supply right now in West Virginia?
When means such as “stop and frisk” are utilized to apprehend suspects based on racial profiling, then entry into the criminal justice system is already biased–not because of who is committing the crimes, but because of who is likely to be put under scrutiny. Add to that cases like Zimmerman and Dunn where by most rational analysis, the white guy got off, and you begin to realize that your “facts” tell us little more than who is more likely to be accused and of those who is more likely to be convicted. And there ARE some detailed studies comparing similar cases side by side to substantiate different outcomes by race, even when the circumstances of the crime are very similar.
As to Jesse Jackson’s statement and your question about whether it is racism, the answer is YES, it is racism. And I believe that Jackson would agree with me. That is why he related this as a sad experience. NOT because he believes that young black men are more dangerous than whites, but because there is no escaping the taint of racist bias in ANY of our thinking–even Jackson who has spent his entire life to fighting it.
He related it as a sad experience because of the reality that blacks per capita are much more likely to commit violent crimes, not because Jackson in an inherent racist against his own race.
Goodness, lurker.
BTW:
Unlikely that Jackson is speaking of his fear of white collar crime as he is walking down the street.
This entire blog discussion has ONLY been about violent crime.
dudley–you need to understand RACISM, which differs from prejudice. And yes, black people are impacted by racist beliefs. One of the sad and sorry realities of “the talk” that black parents must provide especially to their black sons (not once, but repeatedly throughout their growing up), that they cannot expect to be treated fairly, that their lives are in constant danger from people like Dunn, or cops who make pre-emptive traffic stops for DWB, or assistant principals who monitor school hallways, is that this teaches to them that they are, due to their race, singled out for inferior treatment.
It is very hard to provide a meaningful dual message, one that teaches young people to stand tall, be proud and excel, at the same time teaching that many efforts to do so may only call attention to themselves and result in violent or hateful responses.
One of the fallacies clung to by people like Dunn is that young blacks grow up in a world of equal and opposite racism. That given an opportunity they are just waiting to oppress whites as they have always been oppressed. I believe that this fallacy provides the divisive crack that has been exploited for political gain during the Obama Presidency. Racist flames are not fanned simply to put blacks down–but to keep poor white crackers like Zimmerman and his ilk from seeing that they too are being exploited–not by blacks with political power, but by a small cadre of folks at the very top of the heap with economic power.
Racism is a powerful tool that keeps many voting against their own self interest–because they cannot see it as being yoked to the interests of justice and fairness for all.
racism is based in prejudice and ignorance.
Dudley–racism is systemic, prejudice is individual. I would argue that racist systems merely make use of prejudice for justification. They serve altogether different purposes, however.
Not according to the FBI stats as a matter of fact we commit less crimes period than whites even black youth under 18 commit fewer crimes than whites.
Girlp:
What I am speaking of, and the studies I presented are based upon, is per capita crimes, meaning blacks, per capita, are much more likely to commit violent crimes.
I encourage you to read the entire study I presented, here, again:
REASSESSING TRENDS IN BLACK VIOLENT CRIME, 1980.2008: SORTING OUT THE “HISPANIC EFFECT” IN UNIFORM CRIME REPORTS ARRESTS, NATIONAL CRIME VICTIMIZATION SURVEY OFFENDER ESTIMATES, AND U.S. PRISONER COUNTS, DARRELL STEFFENSMEIER, BEN FELDMEYER, CASEY T. HARRIS, JEFFERY T. ULMER, Criminology, Volume 49, Issue 1, Article first published online: 24 FEB 2011
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2010.00222.x/pdf
======
For some reason, all the other material I presented is being withheld, pending review.
Ah, per capita.
The census estimates for 2012 are: 63% white, 16.9% Hispanic and 13% black. Which presents about a 5:1 ratio of white to black by population, similar to ratios for quite sometime. source: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
per capita, as per that study:
For the White–Black comparisons, the Black level is 12.7 times greater than the White level for homicide, 15.6 times greater for robbery, 6.7 times greater for rape, and 4.5 times greater for aggravated assault.
dudleysharp,
You “race realist” types are a hoot. Trotting out the same nonsense over and over again all over the internet.
The important reality of crime is that it’s overwhelmingly intra-racial. Meaning that the victim and the perp is overwhelming of the same race. The funny thing is that the Jessie Jackson quote you’re using actually supports that fact but you’re blinded by the notion of the black bogeyman. And of course you play the “per capita” game which in this case involves the kind of dubious manipulation of stats that no one take seriously except the “Color Of Crime” or Stormfront nuts.
It actually gets more interesting. The lead author of the ‘study,’ and I am using the term loosely in this instance, is out of University of Cincinnati, and before I finish the comment, I’ll say that in other areas- hospital medicine, for example- this may be a great place.
However, when it comes to forensics, and in particular, toxicology, they have some so-called expert witnesses that, as it turns out are suspect. So much so, that I informed a public advocate attorney in Frankfort, for our state on one. This person made extraordinary claims about his expertise in pharmacology and toxicology, when, in fact, he had been permanently revoked from pharmacology licensure in California, and there was no solid evidence regarding where he had attended college, much less graduate school. The scary thing is, this person had been testifying in death penalty, and other serious cases.
I think I’ll set up a database of idiots to send this to. Hope I don’t overload my computer! LOL!
RobUK: Did that little parody actually add any thing constructive or useful to the discussion?
OMG, Bookmarked, RobUK. And you owe me Windex!
This trial was not about the probability or likelihood of Dunn (as a white) killing someone in a car in a parking lot. That probability has nothing to do with what happened. He was very UNlikely to do what he did but he DID do what he did so now, the probability doesn’t matter.
As to his assessment of his own safety because it was more probable that a Black would kill HIM than that he would kill a BLACK, that was HIS problem since of course the actual events of that evening prove without much room for doubt that he had NO VALID REASON for fear — or he would have called the police himself rather than running away.
All the other probabilities in the universe are not in play.
HE chose to shoot and HE chose to keep shooting. The only thing he did not choose was to be caught and prosecuted.
He didn’t base anything on probability; he lied about what he based it on, but in all probability, he based it on racism.
If the probability of a Black teen-ager killing a middle-aged sloppy ass white guy was so high, I want to know how FoDung made it to age 47 without either killing some other kid or dying of terror-and-panic-induced-heart-failure long ago. Huh? He had to have seen Black teen-agers before the day of his son’s wedding.
Unfrickenbelievable:
http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/12/paralysed-man-gives-up-dream-of-walking-so-young-disabled-boy-can-instead-3880808/
Oops wrong link. sorry
Knowing how the jury split makes a great deal more sense to me than yesterday’s rumor about one hold-out. There were nine white people on this jury (the Hispanic guy racially identifies as white.) We do not know, of course, the race of the three jurors but I would bet good money they are white and I wouldn’t be too worried about losing it. If thirty percent of the white folks voted to acquit, that would sound about right because the reason is straight up, pure, unadulterated racism. That is the Jacksonville that I know. I’m related to some people like that, who live in Jacksonville, who I am absolutely certain would have voted to acquit Dunn if they had been on the jury.
MoM: “When someone, by his actions and without justification, causes another to die, it’s called manslaughter. When someone kills another because he had a real fear that turned out to be unwarranted, it’s essentially an imperfect self defense case. Without malice and intent, it’s certainly not first-degree murder and without a depraved mind, it’s not second degree murder. That means when an act of self defense turns out not to be justified, it’s a type of manslaughter.”
Those jurors with those attitudes aren’t going away, as a matter of course, as we head into election season, that bigotry flame will be fanned. How do you try a case knowing that those attitudes “will” end up on a Florida jury? Perhaps all young black men should start taping their confrontations. Everybody has a camera now.
“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”
Jonathan Swift
Taping the confrontation doesn’t work when the “winner” of the confrontation has power. The murder of Kelly Thomas was taped and the murderers were acquitted.
Your so right Malisha.
And so now it goes back to the topic of re-trial. I am not so sure Angela Corey can win a retrial, because it seems that 25% of the jurors overlooked his lies, and make no mistake, Dunn committed perjury- and one-quarter of the jury decided to believe him anyway.
I’m glad the juror made sure to point out his lie!
Me too. And, I thought it was 11-1 according to initial unconfirmed rumors. 9-3 is a different ball game. It’s pretty alarming, actually.
But in retrial every single shred of real evidence should be used, if only in the rebuttal stage. It should be a trial to end all trials of murdering lying perjuring Southern racists.
Right, and I am not so sure Angela Corey is willing to do this, quite frankly.
IMHO I believe the only reason AC made an effort to put on a case was fear on her part.
I think she realized not trying would be the last straw for the black community as it should have been.
I’m trying to look at the bright side and see all the people who stepped forward and told the truth like the contractor and others mostly white.
I also watched a show that showed JD and black and white friends.
Patdeadder: I’m trying to look at the bright side and see all the people who stepped forward and told the truth like the contractor and others mostly white.
Yet the result was the same.
For the three jurors who voted to acquit Dunn, truth was not an issue. Dunn is white, the teenagers are black, the murdered child is black. Case closed. That is how racism works.
If there had been only one racist on the jury, perhaps there would have been a chance of conviction if that person were unwilling to stand alone. With two or more, a hung jury was a certainty.
These people, btw, could have served on Emmett Till’s jury and they would have been right at home. That’s who they are. And that makes solving this problem extremely difficult.
Liza–I believe that the problem of racism goes far deeper than how many “racist” individuals wind up on a jury.
The simple fact that an all-white prosecution team does not know how to get a jury past their own individual biases–walking the fine line between blaming them for their bias and acknowledging that we all have preconceived notions that shape what we see–illuminates how racist is our society. How many of the available judges in the county are black? Is hiring a black attorney (or doctor, or accountant or contractor or software developer) a regular occurance in the lives of jurors? How many jurors attended well-integrated schools? How many have neighbors of another race or culture? How many work in racially integrated businesses? How many worship outside their own race?
I bring this up because I think it a danger to see this as a “them” issue–those jurors who are racist. It is a much larger “us” issue swirling around us all day, every day.
Lurker, I think that I understand your perspective and I do not disagree. Certainly, if we had done a better job integrating schools then we might now have more racial tolerance. And the same is true for neighborhoods, churches, businesses, and professions, just as you state. Those are reasonable assumptions because, as I said somewhere on this thread, racism and ignorance are inextricably linked. Ignorance can sometimes be addressed, not always.
None of that helps us in the here and now. We need to deal with the long term, that is absolutely true, or we will be hard wired into repeating this same horrific travesty. (White supremacist murders a black person, white person makes up a self-defense story, white person has trial and is not convicted for murder, rinse and repeat.)
My point is that the Emmett Till jurists are out there and they are not a rarity. They will make their way into jury rooms and they will do this again and again if they can. They are a problem. We need to acknowledge the problem and not delude ourselves into thinking that a brilliant prosecutor with the public speaking skills of Martin Luther King could sway these kinds of racists.
Insightful interview. Thanks for posting.
I hope Dunn (if he has access to TV, or word of this interview) and his dunderhead supporting family members have taken note that it was a white woman who logically laid out why he was guilty of M1, despite the three negative votes.
Dunn had suggested only a black on the jury would vote him guilty.
Wrong again, Dunnbo.
As for whether the lying Dunnster should be retried … theoretically, a big fat yes.
But I don’t want to see anything slowing down his sentencing for the 4 guiltys in the bag. The sooner he’s shipped off to oblivion, the better. Let him be FoDungen.
I think there’s too much danger that another jury on the M1 might also hang, with an even more dismal result. That might jeopardize the existing guilty votes and keep this killer in the news.
Surely the Davis family doesn’t want that, although I certainly understand why they feel Jordan has been deprived of justice. It could be that justice for Jordan will come from within prison walls.
Again, I want to send Dunn off to an un-airconditioned state facility ASAP, without delay, where he can mix and mingle with thugdom on a daily basis. Again, let him be FoDungen.
TO–it is my understanding that the existing verdicts are now cast and untouchable (unless there are some procedural or evidenciary grounds for appeal). So, retrial on the M1 charge should not imperil them in any way.
I am personally on the fence about retrial. My gut says go for it–because the guy shouldn’t get off, and there needs to be a message put out that being a big man with a gun does in fact have some legal parameters to it. And if the state wants to win (and politically, Corey SHOULD want a win–nobody backs a loser), they certainly can learn some lessons from the first trial–and Dunn will not have the advantage of counsel being carried over.
However, as a practical matter, I just don’t know what makes sense–particularly given the reality that Dunn will be locked away regardless.
There’s also the possibility that it may not be possible to convict a white man claiming self-defense of killing an unarmed black male teenager in Florida unless the boy flees and he shoots him in the back as he runs or drives away.
Professor if retried and found NG, does it affect other verdicts or the sentencing of those charges?
No, and the sentencing is covered by the 10-20-Life law so there is no leeway on the sentencing.
Has no effect on other verdicts and would not likely affect sentences imposed on the other 4 verdicts because the sentences are mandatory.
Judge has to sentence him to at least 75 years, no matter what verdict a new jury would reach.
I’m not sure that it’s possible in Florida to convict a white defendant claiming self-defense for shooting an unarmed black teenager to death, no matter how absurd the claim, unless he shoots him in the back while the teenager is fleeing.
Consider that 9 out of 18 jurors in the Zimmerman and Davis cases voted to acquit lying defendants for shooting to death unarmed black male teenagers.
I do not mean to suggest that the 2 cases are exactly alike or that this constitutes a valid sample for statistical analysis, but the results nevertheless are extremely troubling.
Thanks Fred.
Professor, the juror clearly indicates that the first shots and later shots were considered by the jury to be distinct acts. As a result, the 3 that held out for not guilty see the later shots as an act wherein Dunn no longer had a reasonable fear.
IMO, that would defeat a basis for appeal based on Strolla’s objection to telling the jury that they must consider each act separately.
At least, that is what I hope.
He will lose that argument anyway because that instruction properly stated the law.
At least this jury made an effort to make sure all members understand the law.
One of the great travesties is that the one holdout in the Zimmerman trial appeared to not accept self defense, but was completely ignorant of what “intentional act” means with respect to manslaughter. And is appears that the foreman, B37, made no effort to help her or, maybe, even misled her.
For a person who bragged about her husband being a space lawyer, she fails ethics.
If both juries had been ethical in the legal sense, we might have had hung juries in both cases.
And that just shows how racist our society at large is.
“I’m not sure that it’s possible in Florida to convict a white defendant claiming self-defense for shooting an unarmed black teenager to death, no matter how absurd the claim, unless he shoots him in the back while the teenager is fleeing.”
The defense would probably claim the black teenager threatened his defendant with: “I’m gonna blow your motherfucking brains out cracker, just as soon as I get that gun I stashed in the bushes down the street” which left his defendant terrified for his life. So his defendant had to shoot the black teen in the back as he raced to get the stashed weapon before he got to it, in order to save his life. A few jury members would probably buy it too.
Now, that’s funny (or it would be if not for the fact it could be true!).
Basically this case IS the racist white gunman shooting the unarmed Black kid in the back while he was fleeing. The only difference is that the unarmed Black kid was not on foot; he was shot essentially “in the back” while trying to avoid being killed in the limited space inside a vehicle.
“I’m not sure that it’s possible in Florida to convict a white defendant claiming self-defense for shooting an unarmed black teenager to death, no matter how absurd the claim, unless he shoots him in the back while the teenager is fleeing.”
Isn’t that pretty much what happened here? He was shot in the back while fleeing?
Yes, although I was thinking of someone actually running or driving away from the shooter.
But, you’re right, Jordan was leaning to his left attempting to get below the window.
@texad
Only thing we know about Davis was what his parents shared. Here is a summary of his life (link).
While Dunn was incarcerated awaiting trial, he was told that Davis was not a good kid. He wrote about it in one of his jail letters mentioning that Davis was sent to Florida for school.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2014-02-15/story/jordan-davis-had-problems-and-dreams
I don’t see from the article that Davis “was not a good kid.” He was a pretty normal kid, so far as I can tell.
And he was black.
Dunn expresses that opinion in jail. It was obvious in jail letters.
Sounds like a typical teenage boy to me not a bad kid. Dunn sounds like a very bad kid (never grew up).
I agree! Dunnster was a high school drop out….
Davis was not far from graduating from high school.
What does high school completion have to do with morality?
I find it interesting that Dunn talks about Davis’ upbringing (going to school in FL and not in a positive way) when he himself didn’t finish school.
@J4TMinATL
I don’t see in the article that Jordan Davis was not a good kid. What I read was that he was a normal kid whose Mom was not as tough as his dad. He was a kid who was growing into his body. He was a growing teenage boy whose hormones were changing as he was growing. What I read was that he had a loving father who stepped in and provided a kind of discipline that only a man can provide to his son. If Dunn’s father had taken the same interest in him as HE was growing up maybe young Jordan Davis would be alive today.
By the way, in my world, it is a GOOD thing when daddy and mommy work together in raising their child-even when they are no longer together. To contrast, Dunn and his wife divorced and he saw his child only 3 times in 15 years. I think that speaks volumes.
Dunn is a true baby-daddy.
I didn’t say he wasn’t not good.
2 racist and 1 weakling. Amongst the three of them, no critical thinking. I think that the American justice system needs to seriously review how they select jury members. It shouldn’t be everyday people deciding something this serious. Some countries (that are considered democracies) do things a little different so that justice isn’t miscarriaged.
Three racists.
To clarify my earlier post, Mr. Davis still wants him tried.
“We believe, absolutely with all of our hearts, that they did everything that they could to come to what they believed was the most just decision. We do now know that they were torn, but they’ve done the best that they can with the tools that they had at that time. Of course, each one of them believed what they believed, so that’s what we have to stand on.”
Ron Davis said he believes the jury instructions, which included language about Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, confused the jury. He said the laws have to be rewritten.
“These people were torn because of the jury instructions and not the case. I believe the facts showed that this guy had indifference toward my son and just killed him and continued to shoot at the boys in the car.”
While Davis noted that God delivers the ulitimate justice rather than justice in the court system, he said he was ready for another trial.
“I want Michael Dunn to be tried and found guilty of killing my son…letting him know that it was wrong to kill my unarmed 17-year-old. All the other 17-year-olds out there, they shouldn’t have to fear the adults with the guns that are running around here shooting them at will.”
More of her interview aired on GMA along with interview of Davis parents.
If you listen carefully to her answers in both aired parts, she gives clear reason the 3 believed self defense. They knew after 2 days they were going to be hung on first charge. First vote, 10-2. After reading instructions, 6 guilty, 2 undecided, 2 self defense. Final vote 9-3.
Page 25 of juror instructions that Strolla read during closing “start with page 25.” At that point a revote occurred. 2 justified, 2 undecided, and 6 Guilty.
She talks about “intent” regarding the remaining counts. And her thoughts on what other options Dunn had: “ignore the taunting”
amongst other things.
Yet they couldn’t convict on attempted murder in first degree. They gave lesser included on attempt charges.
I believe Corey won’t retry, not because of the 3, but because it appears Davis’ parents may have more closure and are focused on changing the laws and instructions.
Her wording was that all were clear that Dunn had “crossed a line” when he continued to fire at the fleeing vehicle.
Wow. “Crossed a line” rather than “committed another crime.” So the line is: Only kill one kid. Don’t try for a higher number at one time.
I guess this is a teachable moment for wannabe racist killers.
I think that the line that they referred to was that the imminent danger had passed. Even the self-defense folks could agree to that.
Yes in regards to attempt to murder charges.
Yet they all convicted on the lesser of the attempted murder charges. (2nd degree) .
I believe it’s a must to re-try. What baffles me is Dunn is a liar and still Jurors will believe his story. He was proven to be a liar when he told Dunn he called Police. For me, that lie nullifies his story.
When Dunn told Guy he called Police then he “admittied” he was mistaken.
“If you listen carefully to her answers in both aired parts, she gives clear reason the 3 believed self defense.”
I haven’t seen the GMA interview. What clear reason did she give? TIA!
P. 25 that Corey said read first is that part of law saying imaginary fear gives you right to defend yourself.
NRA teaches members how to get on jury’s , how to answer questions and hide their real agenda. Google NRA how to get on jury…take back our rights.
We were denied the viewing of the jury questioning so we will never know how they answered these questions.
Fl. and 26 other states now has this terrifying additional component to SYG.
I have been looking for sources for your statement “NRA teaches members how to get on jury’s….” While looking I found the following article very interesting about a potential juror refusing to answer 12 questions on the questionnaire prior to voir dire. Article weighs Jurors constitutional right to privacy versus defendant’s right to impartial juror. What happened to this juror who refused to answer 12 questions i.e. income, membership of NRA or any gun club, political affiliation, ….
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/juryseminar/BrandborgvLucas.html
I’m Life Member of the NRA and nobody from that organization ever taught me anything about how to get on a jury. Would you please cite your source for this information?
“And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn’t been for missing you meddling kids!”
Please.
The 3 bought the defense that there was a shotgun. Stupid, of course.
Dunn left the scene, which an innocent would not do and no gun was found, explained by them getting rid of it prior to the poice arriving.
Probably only 3 people in the world believed Dunn and they, somehow, got on the jury.
I favor 9-3 verdicts, or better, for a guilty finding. A super majority
Now, a retrial, with the same prosecutors picking the jury. Only 1 idiot/liar needs to make it only the jury to produce another hung jury.
The 3 bought the defense that there was a shotgun. Stupid, of course.
No they retreated to their own biases about black males.
roderick:
My problem with your conclusion is that it is based within the same ignorance that folks abhor with racism.
It you don’t know, don’t speculate based upon your own bias.
It’s not ignorance: it’s experience.
Sadly, dudley, they are not the only 3 people in the world who believed Dunn. There are many who bring their own beliefs with them. And the truth of the matter is, bias is human. Every one of us who has grown up in America has been shaped by the reality of racism–even to the point of knee-jerk denial that it exists.
Even more sadly, we have two cases that have made headlines–because the victims were unarmed, because they come from middle-class, albeit black, families. Because their stories appeal to us. The reality is that lopsided justice based on race and, to a lesser extent, class status, is carried out every day of the week all across the country. And it begins early.
The Office of Civil Rights, together with the US Department of Education recently released data examining the rates of suspension and expulsion for black and white students. The differences are staggering. Even more staggering is that the differences remain even when comparing for like offenses. Even worse is the evidence that “exclusion-based” consequences for behavior do not achieve what is intended (a better school climate and more well-behaved students), but rather exacerbate both of these problems.
These conditions are not brought about by white-robed Klansmen with torches. They are brought about by exasperated and well-meaning teachers, by parents who want to protect their children “who really want to learn,” by realtors who are able to sell suburban houses at a higher price than those elsewhere–banking on the perception that whiter appearing schools are better.
So–I applaud the OCR’s attempts at shining a light on a root cause. But, it is not new information. Maybe we will act on it this time?
@lurker
Was this part below in the report or is this your opinion? Just trying to clarify, thanks. Would love to see report from OCR if you have link. Thank you.
their children “who really want to learn,” by realtors who are able to sell suburban houses at a higher price than those elsewhere–banking on the perception that whiter appearing schools are better.
No–that part was not in the report. But, there has been a fair amount written regarding white-flight and the resegregation of American schools.
I say hang jury after jury after jury after jury until they get a verdict. Nothing is too much, considering this trial is more important for future law and order, as a deterant, than for “justice” per se. If it is left as is, Black-kid-murderers can do what they like as long as they empty their guns into only one victim at a time.
We also have to start fighting fire with fire. If the right wing is going to start planting stealth jurors, then we need to start hanging some of these ridiculous convictions of black males or absurd acquittals of law enforcement officer who get to tell their victim these hands are going to beat you.
@Dudleysharp:” The 3 bought the defense that there was a shotgun. Stupid, of course”.
What really makes all this so sad, is the fact that for those three, there probably were three more multiplied by another three on the entire jury pool, so it would have been hard to miss at lease one.
“Probably only 3 people in the world believed Dunn and they, somehow, got on the jury”
your right on one thing, only three people in THE WORLD……
but may be more then three hundred here in the state of FLORIDA, yeah I know that don’t make no sense, but we’re in ANOTHER WORLD down here in Florida.
This was jury nulification on the part of the three jurors who wanted to acquit Dunn based upon the all black males are ‘scary’.
No surprise.
It worked so well in the Zimmerman case.
Yes, I agree.
Shame on the 3 holdouts!
Especially shame on the one who started out knowing it was “guilty” and then turned coat. Especially shame on that one.
Does anyone think the cowards,Would ever show their faces & explain why they hung the jury?!
I think that it goes a little deeper than just a belief that black males are “scary.” Among the beliefs craftily supported by the defense in both trials is the notion of young black men being “up to no good,” and particularly that they are part of a vast, well-organized network ranged angrily against all white people.
I recall Cory Strolla claiming (I think it was in closing) that the boys in the SUV didn’t call 911, but rather a “cousin” who showed up immediately. In fact, the relative that was called was an aunt, who owned the SUV, and whose permission was required in order to search the vehicle. That would fall in the general category of cooperating with the police, BTW. But Strolla’s brief fantasy, even though refuted by the prosecution, was useful in propping up Dunn’s claim that he fled because he had no idea “how many more” there might be in the parking lot, or on their way.
O’Mara tried a similar invention by asking a detective, off-handedly, about whether a “possible break-in tool” wasn’t found in the area, under a window. The “tool” was a part of some window itself, and found only days later–with nothing whatsoever to tie it to Trayvon Martin, except the irrational belief that young black boys are “up to no good.”
Thinking back, I am recalling the numerous claims by Treeper-types that Trayvon would have been all right if he had just gone straight home. Meanwhile, never a question arose about Zimmerman’s wandering around the neighborhood snooping. After all–he was one of the good guys. Trayvon played for the other side.
I don’t know what Corey wil decide about retrying the case. Certainly there are lots of factors to consider, including the family’s willingness to go through it all again, and the net gain of bringing a conviction against a man already serving a virtual life sentence. There is also the consideration of her own political needs and how they might be served, or not, by a retrial, conviction or acquittal.
But, the question of whether Florida can deliver equal justice to black and white citizen is one that needs to be on the agenda.
I remember Corey lying about why she told Trayvon’s parents not to show up for the verdict. SHE said it was because she heard and saw that Sybrina was just too emotionally upset and she just wouldn’t be able to tolerate any more. Pure bullshit. Corey told them to stay home because she knew (and had information going both ways into and out of the jury room, thanks to “her” guards doing her bidding) she had bought the acquittal and it would not go down well to make ever juror agree that she had voted NG, one by one (especially Maddie) in front of the gaze of the father and mother of the murdered child.
Corey will lie about this one too if she needs to. She’s positioned properly to lie.
roderick2012-
YEP, The three holdout jurors weren’t interested in truth. Or even proof. They brought their fears and misconceptions into the jury room and decided based solely on that. With Trayvon Martin the defense team and all the other supporters of fogen re-focused the argument to that of a “young” picture being used, teenage tweets that might have contained teenage bravado, a scary hoodie, and his sinister selection of munchies at the 7-11.
I suppose to conteract that, Jordan Davis’s family choose not to release ANYTHING except the picture of him standing in front of the American flag. How ironic. Consequently, nothing was really known about him except how he looked at that particular moment in time. I feel even sadder because now new pictures are being released and friends and family are speaking about what a typical, sweet teenager he really was. There obviously was nothing in his short life that even remotely indicated that he had a gun or questionable gang affiliations – because that surely would have been dug up.
I can’t even be mad at Angela Corey because we always knew who she was and what her role will continue to be. This was another show trial for her. There was no way she was going to make Jordan and his 3 friends look sympathetic in any way because they look like the very type of defendants she works hard to give maximum sentences. Even a 12 year old boy who she felt should have been tried as an adult. Or a new mother (who was most likely still healing from childbirth) who shot in the air in her home to prevent her self proclaimed abusive husband/boyfriend from giving her a beatdown in front of his/her children.
Jury nullification can be the only explanation for the verdict in the Jordan Davis murder trial. It does not work nearly as well for Black defendants, of course. I am thinking about John McNeil, who received a sort of conditional freedom one year ago almost to the day. He was a Black man who was “protecting his castle/house” in an Atlanta suburb from a crazy [white] contractor with a weapon who was threatening McNeil’s son at McNeil’s home. McNeil shot and killed the man and his self defense claim was not accepted. He received a life sentence, but after serving 8 years he reluctantly accepted a plea of manslaughter [with a new sentence of time served with 13 years probation] in order to be with his wife as she was dying of cancer. He was too late-she died 10 days before his release.
I have long felt that Black people in America are treated as a domestic colony, so it might be time to take the lead from our “founding fathers” and remove the king’s boot from our neck. We are great emulators, after all:
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.”
-From the Declaration of Independence
Sorry for the length of this reply. I got carried away.
No need to apologize.
It’s never inappropriate to read and consider the Declaration of Independence.
I believe it’s especially appropriate to consider it today.
I appreciate every word you wrote. Thank you.
Thanks, Malisha. And Professor.
I had promised myself that I would not get caught up in another trial like this after the farce as acted out in the Trayvon Martin murder trial. I keep coming back because I want to believe that America will surprise me and truly become the America it pretends to be. That belief is almost at zero now, because America is going backwards in “race relations”.
Thug is the new n-word. Young black boys are threats to grown a$$ men. School systems are being used as pipelines to prisons. Criminalization by what you wear and what music you listen to. Walking while Black. Driving while Black. Stop and Frisk based on color of skin and zip code. No Justice- Just Us. Is it any wonder that we are once again (or maybe still) the ugly Americans around the world? They’re not listening to our words-they’re looking at our actions.
Thank you. Can never read that enough.
Why would a 6′ 4″ 260lbs male, in possession of a gun, inside a locked car, have a reasonable fear for their life with respect to an unarmed male such that their only recourse was shoot to kill?
At least 9 of them saw that.
According to the juror, the first vote was 10-2 convict. One juror eventually switched to join the other 2.
The juror in the interview consistently voted guilty.
She said the discussions were heated with people occasionally yelling and swearing at each other.
It ain’t complicated, they got a 2 or 3 poggie plant sleepers in there. The racists have a very clear and organized agenda for this decade, regression to the good ole days; and they are patient and willing to play long ball.
I can understand one juror voting not guilty, but after listening to just four people’s testimony in the case – Dunn’s, Rhonda’s, and Tommy Stornes’, and the young man who wrote down the license plate number, I couldn’t see any justification for shooting into the vehicle at all.
Sure does speak to jury nullification when jurors automatically buy a defendant’s prevarications when there’s so much testimony to refute his version of events. Just the spooky little fact that he never called the police casts so much doubt on anything else he says that it’s hard to imagine two people convincing a third that Dunn wasn’t guilty.
Either that or an awfully lot of people in FL are butt stupid, or as you say, buy the myth of the scary black male, or both.
However, I’d be surprised if Corey decides to not try the case again. She has the jailhouse calls and letters and she’d best use them.
Two sides — I’d vote for butt stupid.
I wouldn’t.
They want to make it clear that if THEY ever want to murder a Black teen, they’re allowed to. That isn’t stupid if you’re a racist murderous lying scheming punk. It’s simply “good policy.”
People are afraid to deal with 2nd Amendment gun rights stuff head on. But it’s either do that or . . . things could get really ugly for a lotta people, thousands of deaths later.
[url=http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/weld/weld.html]Not really “butt stupid”, just the usual deep southern upbringing that pervaded the south for over a century. I think that the sexual and necromaniac deviates and sadist who realized early on that slavery was the key to allowing them to practice in public, with impunity, used racism to breed and increase support for themselves, for whatever atrocities they cared to indulge, under cover of “necessary disciplines” and of course, the need for “order”. [/url]
Why else would anyone offer their services or seek employment in a “trade” where whipping people to death and otherwise torturing and killing human beings, would be permissible?
While the average person would run from such savagery like the plague, “normal” people who might give outcry, had to be silenced. Thus, disparaging the black race, to the point of dehumanization, would give these “normal” people pause, to speak against the incredibly freighting viciousness of it all. Nor were slaveholders et als., against publicly turning on white “N-Lovers”, who appeared to be a minority at best.
Believe me, it is no accident that even today we have found pedophiles operating at societies highest levels, able to protect and conceal their activities by using the power of their social status and offices. Slavery and slave laws of yesterday only made it that much easier for the bad actors to ply their trade.
here’s that link again, since it didn’t seem to take the first time:
American Slavery As It Is:
Testimony of a Thousand Witnesses:
Electronic Edition.
Go to page 190 and read. See if anything rings any bells.
American Slavery As It Is:
Testimony of a Thousand Witnesses:
Electronic Edition.