Jury’s failure to reject Dunn’s self-defense claim produces absurd result

Democracy Now report about the verdict and Amy Goodman’s interview of Michael Skolnik

Monday, February 17, 2014

Good morning:

The jury’s failure to reject Michael Dunn’s self-defense claim produced an absurd result.

It convicted him of shooting at and missing three black teenagers but did not convict him of any crime for killing Jordan Davis.

That result, though presumably not intended to punish Dunn for failing to kill the three black teenagers, nevertheless looks bad.

With the exception of Dunn’s self-serving testimony, there was no evidence of self-defense.

Therefore, the viability of his claim of self-defense depended entirely on his credibility.

He lied when he testified under oath that he contacted law enforcement officials after the shooting before they contacted him.

He told the jury that, while driving home to his residence in Brevard County the morning after the shooting, he called his neighbor, a federal agent employed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and told him that he wanted to discuss an urgent personal matter with him upon arrival.

The prosecution produced his cellular telephone bill that established that the phone call was initiated by the neighbor.

Rhonda Rourer, his fiancee who accompanied him on the drive, testified that he placed the call from the neighbor on speakerphone. The neighbor invited the two of them over to his place for a social event. Dunn declined claiming Rourer was not feeling well enough to attend. Dunn did not mention getting together later or at any other time to discuss an urgent personal matter.

Dunn’s false statement to the jury while under oath was important because, despite claiming that he fired into a vehicle occupied by black gangsters and thugs after being threatened with death, he never called 911 to request assistance or to report what happened. Instead, he drove out of the parking lot past a parked police vehicle on the other side of the street with its emergency lights on and drove to his hotel where he walked his dog and ordered a pizza.

The police would not have been able to identify Dunn as the shooter, but for the actions of a homeless young man living out of his car, who was in the right place at the right time, memorized Dunn’s license plate number and gave it to the store manager who called it into 911.

He did not call police that night and he did not call them next day.

Can anyone of sound mind seriously believe that his actions are consistent with a claim of self-defense in a case in which Jordan Davis and his three friends were unarmed and no weapon of any kind was in their vehicle?

Why wasn’t it obvious to every member of that jury and every person who followed this trial that Michael Dunn lied because he was hoping the police would not be able to identify him as the shooter.

Why wasn’t it obvious to every member of that jury and every person who followed this trial that Michael Dunn lied under oath to the jury hoping they would believe he initiated contact with the police?

Why wasn’t it obvious to every member of that jury and every person who followed this trial that Michael Dunn did not shoot Jordan Davis in self-defense?

Especially since Dunn never once told Rhonda Rourer that he saw a shotgun or the barrel of a shotgun or any other weapon before he fired 10 bullets into the red Durango.

The prosecution lost this case in jury selection.

I have repeatedly stressed the importance of jury selection to my clients and colleagues while practicing law, to my law-school students in trial advocacy, and to my readers on this blog.

To prepare for jury selection in the next trial, prosecutors must identify the jurors who believed Michael Dunn fired in self-defense. They must review the jury selection process to determine what they did wrong or failed to do that resulted in those jurors being seated on the jury.

They will lose again, if they fail to do that and justice again will be denied to Jordan Davis and his family.


We face having our power turned off this week unless we get some more donations. Please donate, if you have not already done so.


178 Responses to Jury’s failure to reject Dunn’s self-defense claim produces absurd result

  1. RobUK says:

    I think that it is a mistake for these black parents to keep holding press conferences to say that they forgive their children’s murderers, that they are praying for them, that they feel sorry for them and talking about their children’s murderers suffering. It gives white America the message that they don’t place a high value on their children’s lives, which just reinforces white America’s pre-existing lack of regard for black lives. This forgiveness talk will just encourage these white racist cowards to try to murder even more black children and the justice system and white dominated juries to acquit even more of them.

    I also think it was a mistake for Sabrina Fulton to say that she thought that sick maniac murdering her son was just an accident, that all they wanted was for fogen to be arrested and stand trial and that they would accept the decision whatever it is, because the response from the white supremacist justus system was “fine the n****** want a trial, we’ll give them a “trial”, but we’ll fix it so our boy can get off Scott free”. The less you ask for the less you will be given. Black people have got to get a more militant and uncompromising mindset and demand the justice that they are entitled to. It’s the only thing that can counteract these white child killers and their “stand your ground” license to kill.

    People do take you at your own valuation. Look at how white America reacts when one of theirs is attacked. I don’t hear white America talking that forgiveness talk when they talk about Usama Bin Laden or OJ Simpson. No, because they place the utmost value on white American lives, consider them to be the most precious lives in the world and intensely and unapologetically hate anyone who sheds white blood and pursues them to the ends of the Earth. They are still angry that Orenthal got away with it the first time, even though they got him in the end on some BS revenge entrapment charge (they wont make that effort to get fogen). In fact, whenever the subject of someone getting away with murder comes up, the first name out of most white people’s mouths is OJ Simpson. It’s very telling that OJ Simpson is the ultimate symbol in most white people’s minds for someone who has gotten away with murder, even though white people have been getting away with murdering black people for centuries.

    I think the parents of these kids murdered by racists believe on some level that if they present themselves as super forgiving and saintly, it will humanise them in white America’s eyes and make white America feel empathy and compassion for them and their children: “ahhh they are so forgiving, they are such good Christians, maybe these were some of the good black people, maybe their kids weren’t thugs and didn’t deserve to be killed”, but they are wrong, very wrong. They obviously don’t understand who and what they are dealing with.

    • Patdeadder says:

      RobUK I so agree with you.

      • breelee says:

        Well written post Rob, and I agree. I see why they feel they have to do it, but I like you, wish they wouldn’t. They shouldn’t have to.

    • dee truth says:

      Let the church say Amen.

    • They forgive because as a believer, that is what you’re supposed to do, that is what thought, that is what they believe. Forgiveness, doesn’t mean it’s ok, its means a higher power will handle this. It also mean, that they don’t get angry, it means that you’re not consume with anger.

      • RobUK says:

        If they must believe in pie in the sky fantasies, it would be better if they prayed for, felt sorry for and forgave the unrepentant racists who blow their kids away without remorse privately and refrained from broadcasting it to white America, because as I said the message it sends them is detrimental.

  2. Soulcatcher says:

    Fred or CS,

    If your power has not been cut off by now, please email me with a phone # of your power co and account # and I will call and pay right now.

  3. Human beings at this stage of evolution will always divide themselves up. You could make us all perfectly symmetrical with exactly the same everything, barely discernible from each other and we’d still pull this same crap. Conversely, we are getting better, slowly & with great struggle.

    • Patdeadder says:

      Ham radio my Grandfather born in 1900 was left handed and severely punished in school to the point of injury to his left hand.
      What the hell is wrong with us.I believe if the human race doesn’t wise up we will become extinct.
      Animals do not kill there own kind and we consider ourselves the smarter ones.
      We travel all over the world to kill each other.

  4. groans says:

    (Hope this works….)

    The power of a great cartoonist: Standing Their Ground by Jim Morin of The Miami Herald. pic.twitter.com/oXcL2fSQhu— Roger Simon (@politicoroger) February 16, 2014

  5. JJ says:

    The next case to watch is the shooting in the Movie theater in Tampa FL. SYG will be involved again. The shooter is a retired cop. The murdered person was WHITE and the father of a young daughter. The cop asked the dad to stop texting. The cop left to get the manager. When the cop returned, the dad ended up throwing popcorn at the retired cop. The cop shot the dad in the chest killing him. Reeves is being held without bond.

  6. bettykath says:

    small donation made. hope it helps.

  7. Patdeadder says:

    I don’t as a rule like Nancy Grace but tonight she has on a friend of Jordan Davis.A lovely girl and she talked about how nice he was.
    I think her parents were sitting in the front row behind the prosecution during the verdict.They showed beautiful pictures of him and friends black and white.Maybe there is hope with the younger generation.

    • Was her name Alia?

      Alia was his girlfriend and she worked at Urban Outfitters. He stopped in to visit her at work just before the boys stopped at the Gate and Dunn killed him.

      • Patdeadder says:

        Mr. Leatherman the friend of Jordan’s on Nancy Grace was white.Can’t think of her name.
        They showed pictures of Jordan and a bunch of kids floating in rubber dingies enjoying themselves.

  8. Lynn says:


    Don’t know if this has been posted yet.
    My thoughts on the first half that I’ve read is, he’s protesting a little too much about have to turn back, face forward, etc. We all know he was not level with the front window, but with the back. How could he have seen the other menacing looking rear passenger unless he was further back. smh

    • Lynn says:

      Reading more now and he flat out talks about the front passenger door moving in front of him as the suv backed up. Once again his pants are aflame. Horrible liar. Doesn’t that prove he was level with the back window?

  9. Our power will be cutoff tomorrow morning because we cannot pay our bill. Apparently, we will also have to pay a reconnection fee.

    We hope to have power restored by the end of the week, but we are going to need some more help to do that.

    In the meantime, we’ll do the best we can to continue posting articles and maintaining the site.

    Many thanks to those who have assisted us with donations.

    • Patricia says:

      Donated, hope it helps. Keep up the good work!!! To everyone!

    • dianetrotter says:

      I’m sorry professor. I wish I could give more. I unfortunately co-signed for a $5K law school loan for my nephew several years ago. I just checked creditkarma.com and the amount has gone to $6400. I’m paying it off through a charitable organization this week so I can stop the bleeding.

    • stan says:

      Considering all that has transpired between the three of us over the years, I would have thought and hoped you would have dug a little deeper beneath the mere letters I put to paper and recognized the most serious statement and stand I was making and taking against prejudice and bigotry not only of African Americans but all human beings wherever they yearn for their place in the sun and freedom from want and privation.

      But alas, it appears that I asked of you and your readers too much.

      The ultimate irony is that I opened your web-site to find out where I could once again send funds to help you during this difficult time.

      But when I saw the deletion of my texts, I had to face the sad reality that it was time for all of us to move on, and am sincerely saddened that we can no longer be friends.

      Again and always may the blessings of a long and happy life for both Rachel and you be your constant companions as you navigate through this bitter-sweet experience called life.


    • Malisha says:

      Did you check on the paypal rec’t? Or should I say Peter Pan?

  10. Followed by Jonathan Martin and 2 others
    Matt McGovern ‏@MattMcGovern 1m
    Good luck w/ moral character check: George Zimmerman plans to become lawyer to ‘stop miscarriages of justice’ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/george-zimmerman-announces-plans-to-become-a-lawyer-to-stop-miscarriages-of-justice-9134629.html

    • stan says:

      It is unbelievable that you deleted any of my comments.

      While I wish both of you the very best that life has to offer, I am repelled by your inability as well as that of your readers to recognize obvious sarcasm and hyperbole when you read it.

      Therefore, in response to your unconscionable action you leave me with no other choice but to bid you both au revoir.

      How very sad.

      • Your two comments were out of bounds and offensive.

      • I was just bowing out and saw your message, Stan.

        Sarcasm in a brief piece of writing is often hard to recognize without : / or *sarc* tags, or some other identification, and this also depends upon the reader too. Some people have more literarl minds than others when reading.

        Your largest post is still here and a good one. Hope you’ll stick around.

      • I am just now seeing this, and I am very sorry to see you make a decision to leave, over a couple of comments. I have had comments deleted myself, both here and at another site I post at. I write satire and post snarky things but others have not always seen it that way.

    • Well, perhaps he can pull that off by the time he’s about hmmm, 70?

      • If he graduates community college by then and somehow manages to grow a conscience, sure, LOL.

        • bettykath says:

          you have to have a conscience to be a lawyer? wonder where some of the lawyers i have had the displeasure of knowing put theirs.

          • Well, I know. But they do have to go through a (kind of rigorous, depending on where you are) character and fitness-type evaluation. My son went through that, and I was amazed, how thorough it is. That is what the tweeter meant when he said, “Good luck with the moral character test.”

            GZ is not even good at pretending.

          • Fogen seems the type to publicly have lofty aspirations but when push comes to shove is mostly all talk and no action. If he hadn’t gotten out of his shruck he’d likely still be in the same job, plodding along.

          • tblue says:

            Unless the law school graduate convinces the representatives of the bar that he/she is of “good” character, he/she is not even permitted to take the bar exam, much less admitted to the bar in order to practice law in that state.

            My good friend, who graduated third in his class in law school, had to jump through hoops to be able to take the exam and be admitted to the bar in one state, and then he had to jump through even MORE hoops to be allowed to take the bar exam in another–all because of a misdemeanor pot conviction as an undergraduate college student several years earlier (he waited several years between college and law school).

            Ironically, Zimmerman’s long list of potentially legal issues concerning violence and menacing with a weapon probably wouldn’t cause him as much trouble as my friend’s misdemeanor pot conviction, since despite several arrests, he was never charged in most of those cases, and he was acquitted in the one case where he was charged.

          • tblue says:

            OOPS! I meant “potentially serious legal issues” in the preceding comment!

    • I like the commenter at the Independent who said that perhaps once Fogen studies law, he may discover he’s a murderer. 😀

  11. I just realized I got two authors, with the first name Naomi, mixed up. I feel like an idiot, but here it is.

    Naomi Wolf wrote The End of America, and that book is the basis for the montage I posted upthread, called ‘Freedom to Fascism in 10 Steps:


    Naomi Klein is a different author:


    She wrote an excellent book called, ‘The Shock Doctrine.’

    Very sorry, my mistake.

    *adjusting dunce cap*

  12. Tee says:

    Angela Corey is the problem she lack any morals. The prosecution picked the wrong jury in both cases, and they don’t use the evidence to their advantage, and forget rebuttal theirs was subpar in Dunn’s and nonexistent in GZ trial. I am dont know much about the law, but what I do know is when Dunn said that it was Rhonda whom said thug music, because he don’t speak like that, I would have pulled that jail house letter out and impeached him azz. The letter that says that the more he is in that jail with blacks thugs the more prejudice he becomes, that letter would have convicted him not only for 1st degree but for a hate crime. Angela Corey don’t have the balls to do her jod, because if she she would have prosecuted this case as a hate crime.

    • While I am not sure if Florida has a hate crime statute, the feds do. Since Dunn was not a federal prosecution, I am not sure if Angela Corey could have prosecuted for this. That all said, there is plenty she left out, and it’s inexcusable, IMO.

  13. Malisha says:

    I kept looking at FoDung’s face and asking myself, “Whom does he remind me of?” and finally it came to me: Aileen Wuornos.

  14. Patdeadder says:

    I’m somewhat confused,wasn’t it that the jury had to believe it was premeditated.
    Maybe there was only one asshole holdout who was maybe saying they would hold out on the other charges if they insisted on the first.
    I’m not making any sense I know.
    Can I ask what is a pre sentence investigation report.

    • Malisha says:

      For murder 1, premeditated. But for Murder 2, no premeditation necessary. The only hitch with Murder-2 would be a reasonable belief that FoDung’s life was in danger or he was in danger of great bodily injury. Yeah sure. he was in danger of losing face because a carfull of African American teens wasn’t submissive enough to him.

      • Patdeadder says:

        Thank you Malisha sorry I didn’t understand the charges obviously.
        I did not believe one word that asshole said on the stand.
        And the worst of it was he was so confident he would get away with murdering a black kid because he is white.
        My white Mother must be rolling over in her grave.

    • Malisha says:

      Pre-sentence investigation report is usually done by the Probation Department which interviews the convict and various other people. Sometimes the defendant will hire his own expert to testify to the judge that he shouldn’t get the max, and sometimes the prosecution also gets an expert into the mix to say “YES HE SHOULD” and so forth. It’s soft science. The judge does what he wants to do.

    • Sandy says:

      Patdeadder, for all 12 jurors had to agree that it wasn’t self defense before they could go on to decide whether it was 1st degree, 2nd degree, or manslaughter. They never got past the self defense nonsense cuz somebody wouldn’t let it go. That’s why the jury kept sending questions to the judge about self defense. They were never able to move to deciding the degree of murder because they couldn’t — all 12 — agree that it *was* murder.

    • lady2soothe says:

      It’s an investigation into the history of person convicted of a crime before sentencing to determine if there’s extenuating circumstances to lighten the sentence or show a history of criminal behavior to increase the sentence.

      Family and friends may also be interviewed, as well as school and employment records.

    • A presentence investigation report is based on an interview between the defendant and a presentence investigator.

      A presentence investigation report (PSIR) is a legal term referring to the investigation into the history of person convicted of a crime before sentencing to determine if there are extenuating circumstances which should ameliorate the sentence or a history of criminal behavior to increase the harshness of the sentence. The PSIR has been said to fulfill a number of purposes, including serving as a charging document and exhibit proving criminal conduct, and is said to be akin to a magistrate judge’s report and recommendation.[1]


  15. Off-topic, Hello everyone.

    We are incredibly thankful to our readers, and to each and every one of you for site donations. Unfortunately, we are not going to meet our power bill, due to 1) increased rate 2) cost of meds for Fred’s recent sinus infection. That is the bad news. The good news is, we are going to try our best, to keep the site going uninterrupted, but we will need to do this from a WiFi site. We are not missing it by much, maybe 50 dollars or so, but…I just spoke to the power company. We are not on a shut-off list for today, but anticipate shut down tomorrow. In the meantime, I am calling heating assistance agencies.

    If you can help out, we would appreciate it very much, if not, we understand, because that is where we are at. It has been a very difficult winter for everyone. We are determined to keep the site going, however, and we are thankful to all of you!

  16. Boyd says:

    Listening to this rap that sent Dunn over the edge, sound pretty good, I’d roll down the window and ask them who’s this. Like how the bass kicks in.

  17. Marsha says:

    I was thinking about something that happened to a colleague a few years ago. She was quite ill and needed surgery. She insisted her teen son attend school rather than wait at the hospital with his father, thinking it would keep him busy and prevent him from worrying. He was distracted in class and one of his white teachers, not knowing of the surgery, reproached him for not paying attention and responding to her when she asked him a question. He didn’t threaten her but he did tell her to STFU and leave him alone and who cares about the blankety blank class anyway.

    She had him arrested!!!! When his mother was well enough she made an appointment with the teacher and asked her why she involved the police when her son was an honor student with no history of any trouble in school or out. The teacher said, that’s just it; he never acted up before and I was terrified.

    All the positive interactions between the teacher, the boy, and his family were forgotten in an instant. She didn’t take him aside and ask what had gotten into him, she didn’t even send him to the principal’s office, she assumed a threat that didn’t exist.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      My son was treated that way in middle school – as were other kids. Generally this was racial, but sometimes white kids with IEPs got it as well – new school to prison pipeline and often no real criminal act. The principals and VPs were the real thugs.

      • Actually, my daughter too was harassed in middle school – straight A student – had her phone taken away, scrolled through, told school cop she was dangerous because she had a friend from LA who sent her a text of her name doodled in chalk on sidewalk – gang related, ya know. : /

  18. OMG, so dangerous!

    Jameelah Jones ‏@sunnydaejones 1m
    BEST ON YET “@AnreDWashington: #DangerousBlackKids pic.twitter.com/H1jos79vHe”
    Hide photo Reply Retweet Favorite More
    Embedded image permalink

  19. Pre-comment hat-tip to the poster who previously noted the #DangerousBlackKids article. For review:

    Viral Twitter Stream Exposes Deadly, Racist Fears
    The messages were posted as a way to counter the deep-seated racial fears of some whites — that blacks are inherently dangerous.


  20. Malisha says:

    It’s interesting: What does “self-defense” mean to a person like FoDung (or Fogen) whose “self” depends, for its life, upon the ability to bully others and to control those he believes are (or wishes were) his inferiors?

    For such a person, life is an unending effort to SHOW that he is not contemptible. To SHOW that he has to WIN over someone who, he declares, IS. He has to constantly make others bow to his will. He has to show who’s boss. He has to be the master. He cannot live and let live; letting live implies that the other person is just as worthy of breathing as HE is and he cannot tolerate that thought because deep down inside he knows he’s no damn good.

    A person like this becomes a “control freak” or a “dominance addict.” He not only has to win all fights, he has to manufacture fights TO win. If he feels less than MASSA for a few hours, he has to make up for it by an exaggerated show of dominance within a very short time. He cannot let himself, for instance, just break down and cry in a hotel room because his kids don’t like him or his ex-wives are obviously doing very well without his “guidance” and “correction.” He cannot just admit that he messed up and his family is better off without him. He cannot just admit that he’s not the king of the world, king of the convenience store parking lot, king of the vehicle, king of the race, king of the “real Americans,” king of king of king of king of.

    He cannot stand the smell of his own sh-t. He has to defend himself from understanding that. He has to defend himself from realizing how really-nothing-at-all he is. And since he cannot have any serious good effects on the world to prove his worth, he will just have serious bad effects on the world and pretend they were good. (Remember, Fogen had to kill Trayvon Martin because he was defending himself against the obvious conclusion that he was a not-ready-for-cop-time creep, an unintelligent meddler, a neighborhood nuisance, and a wus.)

    The ambiguous message of the verdict in the FoDung case was “we will still pretend to believe you were afraid of a kid who did nothing to you and we will still pretend you were not just a disgusting piece of filth deciding to take out your frustrations on an innocent child” but “we will lock you up for shooting a bunch of bullets into a car so that some kids you did NOT pretend to be scared of might have gotten hurt.”

    That is: We will believe your lies because we also must rely upon lies to keep us together; but we can’t give you a “pass” on kids you did not see fit to claim fear of because that way, people can kill just anyone, and we can’t go down that road.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “Manufacturing fights to win” says a lot about both Fogen and Fodung.

      • Malisha says:

        Yes, and in order to manufacture fights to win, you have to make sure you choose opponents who cannot or may not be able to fight back. So if you have a gun, you choose unarmed children. It’s not deep.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Passive, enabling women.

          • Malisha says:

            Right. Women who say, “simper simper simper, take the target off George’s back, here, take my little kid and do what you will with her, because I looooooove you, simper simper wimper.”

    • crazy1946 says:

      Malisha, Wonderful words of wisdom you have written! I must ask however is this disease (for lack of a better description) limited to any particular race or ethnic group? Is it contagious? is it hereditary? But most importantly, is it curable?

      • Malisha says:

        All my opinions, Crazy:

        1. Disease limited to any particular race or ethnic group?

        Answer: No, but the white Americans who display this kind of behavior tend to be the ones who act OUT the most. You could have a 47-year-old African Amercan man who had been raised by a cold, self-centered, narcissistic mother and an ineffectual unintelligent father and you could find that he was very much into the constant pursuit of “dominance” and that he put others down and pushed them around and he was a bully. But would he have acquired enough of a belief that he would be able to get away with murder, fleeing the scene and perjury? I don’t think so. I think he would be very much constrained by the fact that people generally did NOT believe his excuses for any bad behavior or any bullying that he engaged in. That is, he would have been stopped a lot sooner than FoDung. So we’re seeing a combination of personal psychological factors AND the culture that operates to forgive them, encourage them, and enhance them until they reach murderous proportions. For the white male patriarch.

        2. Is it contagious?

        ANSWER: I believe it is hereditary. Parents who tear their children’s ego to shreds on a regular basis, who are abusive and domineering, and who model hatred, contempt and disdain for the rights of others, often produce these terrorized and sociopathic children.

        3. Curable? Wow. Since it is a condition rather than a disease, I believe it would only be “remediable,” not “curable,” but the remedy is unavailable if the culture does not strictly and unequivocally FORBID the behaviors associated with it, and PUNISH them without fail or delay. That is, the failure of our court system has probably made the “condition” into an incurable epidemic already. Once you embolden a Fogen, you have called forth a host of Fogenites. Publicly reward a Fogen and you have uncontrollable chaos. The good news is that it seems that critical mass may be about to be reached, if only we can rely upon SOME decent media reporting to help us out here. I think much more attention must be paid to the three murderers in California who beat Kelly Thomas to death: People who cannot tolerate what they did are accosting them on the streets and getting them kicked out of restaurants and are making them very uncomfortable. Which is a step in the right direction. We have to understand that our court system will not do what needs to be done to save us from the atrocities being perpetrated on a daily basis by these armed and dangerous dominance addicts. We need to ostrasize them, visibly abhor them, disrespect them in every available legal way, and let them know: WE REJECT YOU AND YOUR KIND.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Malisha, I truly appreciate you taking your time to address my questions. I find your word refreshingly open and honest, a rare thing in todays social environment… I agree some what on your answer in the first paragraph, but with the differences in our backgrounds that is probably not unusual, for you have been exposed to a much broader spectrum of society than I have. Your answer in the second paragraph is unfortunately ever so true and while we all abhor the environment that fosters such hate and bias, I’m not sure that it will ever totally go away… The third paragraph again I agree with it on most points, but as you are well aware, I refuse to give up on my fellow man and make the absolute statement that the legal system can not be changed to a blind and unbiased system, but concede that it will take much work before it reaches that stage..

  21. Crane and Fred, pics of Sybrina and Lucie in moderation due to Twitter links.

  22. Brandy says:

    Vinnie Politan on HLN is showing Fogens interview and slamming him! It is refreshing to watch someone on TV calling this moron out oh his Bullshit!

      • Mary Stoltz says:

        No, no, Two Sides. I am not a troll. You have to go to Twitter and see all the beautiful pictures that parents are posting of their kids with satirical comments reflecting the ridiculous fears of racists. It is a must see. I can’t get my password to work on WordPress. I am Momma.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I’m not speaking of you, Mary. I’m speaking of the people who consider Jordan and Trayvon and any average black kid to be dangerous.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Thanks for pointing out that there are wonderful pictures. I should post some of my beautiful kids who have been trampled on by racists who think they aren’t racists. Thank goodness mine have been made stronger and are still alive.

        • And I love the one you posted! I sometimes scroll past things- doggone wordpress nests- but that is so, so cute!

          • :]. I just can’t stay away from the blog – it’s so much darn fun!!

          • Well, it really is and, the thing is, we are furthering the discussion I think, that started with very tragic, painful events. And yet, I think all of really try not to be a glum ‘lot,’ – to keep the head held up and keep going.

            That reminds me. We are planning where to go next, which cases to cover. We do plan to cover Marissa Alexander’s re-trial, the trial of Theodore Wafer (for the murder of Renisha McBride in Detroit)…we have a couple of other things in mind. If you or other readers have suggestions, please put them in a comment!

          • lady2soothe says:

            I know there isn’t much to go on right now but I’d really like to see some justice for Kendrick Johnson.

          • Me too.

            No word yet from the feds on their investigation.

          • Me too. Currently the state has closed the bizarre case, but the feds are supposedly still investigating it. We will keep an eye out, for developments.

          • tblue says:

            Future trial to watch for: Perhaps the trial of the 48-year-old “responsible gun owner” who shot into a car full of his teenaged son’s friends because on “Mischief Night” they had egged his or his son’s car in retaliation for a prank the man’s son had played on them last Halloween. (The news articles vary on whose car it was.) His shots killed a 15-year-old girl in the car full of teen pranksters.

            This story lacks the racial angle, since both the shooter and the victim are black, but it does speak to the insane gun culture that produces such travesties as SYG laws and that arms creeps like Fogen and Dunn.

            If Fogen and Dunn had not had the fake courage that came from having a gun, they would not have interfered with their victims in the first place, and both kids would still be with their families.

            If the guy who shot at those kids for pranking on Mischief Night had not had a gun, his uncontrolled temper would have led to yelling and maybe a call to the cops, and that little girl would still be alive.

            In the Fogen and Dunn cases, racism determined the murderers’ choice of victim, but in all of these cases it was the easy access to guns and the legal environment created by ALEC/NRA SYG laws that led the shooters to arm themselves and to decide that they had a right to shoot unarmed kids for ridiculous reasons.

          • Okay yes, came across that today, and I cringed because quite frankly, when I was that age…Well. We climbed onto the roof of our friend Jack Huntington’s house and tee-peed the trees. Jack’s father was not amused, but he didn’t reach for a gun, thank God. He simply took the ladder away and left us stranded, on the roof! LOL. (That was back when the world sort of made sense.)

          • dianetrotter says:

            The case of the 48 year old and 15 year old is in my hometown, Little Rock, Arkansas. Many people knew both the 48 year old and the kids in the car. The shooting took place around 1 am in the morning.

          • I’m interested in this case too. What makes someone decide to shoot at a car in a fit of temper knowing that the situation isn’t self-defense and that they could kill someone?

  23. Louie says:

    I feel what this trial needs is a Black Prosecutor who will not be afraid to bring out the conversation of RACE!!!! Only a Black person will truly understand the feelings of the boys and the true feelings of Mr.Dunn!!
    I am a 65 year old middle class White woman who has been married to a Black man for 40 years and I have seen it all from both sides. With 3 children All with College Degrees & Beautifull Familys
    They have seen and felt it too!
    So until we get a person of color to prosecute these kind of trials we will loose most of them.
    Mr Dunn was wrong here and he is Guilty and I can only wonder what went on in that jury room. I am sure it was a person of my race that wanted to let him go on that charge, Sure of it!!!
    I am so happy that there were people of color that understood what really happend and tried to stop it.
    We have to start to Love one another and Help one another, no one is perfect and we need to give Everyone a chance and Help those we see who need it. People are afraid of the unknown All people are, and untill we educate people this will never stop!!
    Please everyone pray for Jordon and pray for Mr. Dunn also because he has a hard road ahead of him for the Hate that he feels inside. Now he will learn what it feels to be a person of color with
    No Rights at all. He will eat, sleep and live the rest of his life with the people he most hated!
    God help us all!!!

    • Malisha says:

      Looking at Dunn’s face I have a definite feeling that he lost, long ago, the capacity for positive change. His face tells his story and his various syllables that he forces out of his mouth have nothing to do with it. They’re like formulas he’s told to repeat to keep away haints. He’s stuck on the belief that he was allowed to kill Jordan Davis (or any other person HE judged to be without resources to dominate him or force him to stop abusing them) because he has judged him BENEATH him. He is the kind of person who has ruined our country Since the 1600’s and even before, HE is the kind of person who has destroyed our chances of ever emerging from the domination rituals that became nationalism, capitalism and racism as we know them now.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Louie, with a Black prosecutor, Dunn will be exonerated. Stealth jurors will hate looking at him every day. They will swear he got his job through affirmative action.

      • Louie says:

        Yes that’s true also, then we have to do better at picking the jury. Malisha said maybe Lie Detectors could solve the problem on what people think and view others. Maybe that would work.

        • Malisha says:

          I’m sorry to have given the impression that I thought lie detectors (commonly called that, really polygraph tests) would work. I do not believe that at all, and don’t think there could ever be a law requiring or even offering polygraph exams to prospective jurors. My minimal non-professional research shows only that lie detectors can trip up very conscientious people while sociopaths breeze through them with ease and aplomb.

          Funny story: During the days when Elizabeth Morgan was in the news for trying to protect her daughter from incest, a radio show called me (as a mothers’ advocate) to do a show opposite the accused father (Dr. Eric Foretich) in that case. I accepted. On the day of the program, Foretich pulled out and the radio interviewer said he wanted to go forward WITHOUT the other debater, just with me, and it was a call-in show, and I said yes.

          I think one of Foretich’s lawyers had gotten him a friendly polygraph or something but somehow, that issue came up on the radio show. I said that I wouldn’t put much stock in them because they were easy to fool. During the call-ins, we got THREE CALLS from men who wanted to know how to fool a polygraph! I said, each time, “I’m not going to broadcast that; you’ll have to ask your own attorney.”

    • A black prosecutor will not necessarily solve the problem.

      The elected prosecuting attorney for Durham County in North Carolina is black and he decided not to prosecute anyone for the death of 17-year-old Jesus Huerta who died from a single gunshot wound that entered through his mouth and exited through the top of his head while sitting in the back seat of a patrol vehicle with his hands cuffed behind his back.

      His death is classified as a suicide.

  24. neveragain says:

    But people could lie to get unto a jury….

    • dianetrotter says:

      True…especially since they won’t be able to find anyone who doesn’t know about the case. That would be the first lie. Anyone who says they don’t care about the case one way or another tells another lie. Should potential jurors take a lie detector test.

    • Yes. And I think that the voir dire experts are (supposed to be anyway) really good at picking up on subtle lies. Of course B37 wasn’t even subtle. She just lied, about the riots that never happened.

      But yeah. People lie all the time. And one of the things I trip on is, lies seem to be the new norm, so we are supposed to get excited when somebody accidentally tells the truth.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Crane-Station, perhaps the state needs to do like MOM did for Zimmerman, hire a jury expert (one that knows what they are doing) it worked very well for MOM…

        • Here’s where it gets creepy. I think they had one…

          • crazy1946 says:

            Crane-Station, IMO short of having a computer program decide the guilt or innocence of people charged with a crime, there will “never” be a way to eliminate the possibility of a jury finding guilt or innocence in an unbiased fashion… Today, instead of holding out hope that a conviction can and will be had in this case, we sit here in a doom and gloom atmosphere instead of trying to realize the glass is not half empty, it is instead half full… We did not lose the case, we did not even lose the battle, we suffered a set back, this case can and will be won… If that is truly what people want… Did we here Jordan’s or Trayvon’s parents say, that all was lost, like many on here are saying? Have they thrown up their hands and conceded defeat? I find myself confused as to why many here have done so? Is all truly lost at this time? You surrender to the forces of evil, but this old man refuses to do so….

          • Thank you, they are truly an inspiration. You get up, dust off the knees, and keep moving. I am so glad no one has conceded defeat. In some circles that might be called the ‘easier softer way,’ but in the bigger picture? Quitting is not an option, right? Thank you so much for this comment and perspective.

    • roderick2012 says:

      That’s true but Juror B37 referred to the protests as ‘riots’ yet the State didn’t use one of its challenges to have her eliminated as a juror.

  25. Thought he was homeless, suffering terribly, PTSD, created by Barack Obama:

    George Zimmerman ‏@TherealGeorgeZ Feb 3
    @AstroTwerp thanks bud, everything is going well so, I’m happy as well! Hope you enjoy the rest of your Monday.

  26. MDH says:

    One problem I see is that Cory is a Republican prosecutor elected to put thugs behind bars. So she and her team, for the most part, look for jurors who think all black males are thugs. IOW, they have no experience in looking for jurors who can be objective with regard to lies told about black males.

  27. George Zimmerman ‏@TherealGeorgeZ 26m
    @piersmorgan God bless you, you will be in my prayers.

    Piers Morgan ‏@piersmorgan 13m
    But since you’re citing God, @TherealGeorgeZ – try this: ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’ – Exodus, 20:13. #RIPTrayvonMartin

  28. Piers Morgan ‏@piersmorgan 1m
    Sue me. I’d love that. > RT @TherealGeorgeZ @piersmorgan I’ll see you in court 🙂 you can’t shred and delete emails fast enough amigo! Xoxo

    • Go Piers!

      I was against CNN airing their interview this AM – but in hindsight, glad they did it. It was pretty hard-hitting and continues a national conversation we need to keep having. And it shows Fogen not really taking full responsibility for his actions – he’s a victim, but was told “we don’t need you to do that.” He made a split-second decision that he will have to deal with the rest of his life!


      • Full video of interview at link above. ^^^

      • He gets the asshole of the day award from me. Here’s the symbol for it:

        an asshole (_x_)

        • Nice work, Crane!

          Well, MAYBE there’s another little crack – in spite of blaming the President, the Attorney General, and others for his problems, he did make one small concession:

          • Sandy says:

            No sh*t Sherlock.

          • racerrodig says:

            Obviously he hasn’t had time to reflect…….well since he’s unemployed and the future doesn’t look any better, he’s had time to reflect and says “I think my life would be tremendously easier if I had stayed home” and not gone out looking for a black victim since Shellie bugged out the night before and um…I guess I didn’t have time to reflect on…well since ya mentioned it, since it’s her gun, this is um…….all her fault.

            So he lied to Hannity and maybe he does regret going out that night instead of just watching the NBA All Star game.

          • dee truth says:

            No sh-t!

          • Patdeadder says:

            Zimmerman thinks his life would be easier if he had stayed home.yea well asshole Trayvon would still have his life and probably going to college.

        • racerrodig says:

          Someone posted this in the comments on his interview.

          “Zimmerman claimed that he wants to be an attorney, so he can “stop the miscarriage of justice that happened to me from happening to somebody else. I don’t think it should ever happen to anyone ever again, not one person.”

          “I would be absolutely okay with this. Zimmerman should be the state-appointed attorney for every shooter in a “stand your ground” case; certainly would cut down on the kind of miscarriage we saw in his case.”

          That’s a picture I can deal with…Advertise it in fact and watch the shooting rate plummet. Even the racist trolls know Fogen is firmly entrenched double digit IQ territory.

          He can have Taaffe as a research assistant and TV spokesman.

          Osterman…..security and transportation……

          Robbie the Racist……social media director…..

          So, as I understand this a “miscarriage of justice” is being charged with crime, specifically shooting an unarmed minor?

          What a dipshit.

      • roderick2012 says:

        2sides: He made a split-second decision that he will have to deal with the rest of his life!

        I disagree that what he did that night was a split second decision.

        First he menaced Trayvon by following him in his truck then he stared Trayvon down while Trayvon was sheltering under the mail kiosk.

        Then he shot out of his truck like a cannonball in pursuit of the ‘suspect’.

        Every action that George took that night was premeditated because he had time to disengage yet the NEN call was just in case something went wrong.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          You’re right. It was a overall a longer decision. But that last decision after being told “we don’t need you to do that” was a quick and fatal one.

          • roderick2012 says:

            But George had no intention of following the dispatcher’s instructions.

            He only called NEN that night so he could have an alibi if something went wrong.

        • crazy1946 says:

          roderick2012, It was not a split second decision, he knew some kid would die that night, Trayvon just happened to be the first one available… Zimmerman left his squatter home looking for a target, and when Trayvon came by, Zimmerman seized the opportunity like any other predator and killed his prey… The taking of another persons life was the only way that Zimmerman could regain his “sorta” manhood after his conscript (Shellie) left his squatter home…

  29. towerflower says:

    Until a juror speaks we don’t know what happened. Did they split on an acquittal or did they split on convicting between 1st and 2nd degree murder? But the important thing is he will be retried on that charge.

    • If anyone sees this before we do please post the link. Thank you!
      (juror interview)

    • Had to be a disagreement about self-defense.

      They were explicitly instructed not to consider murder 2 unless they could not agree unanimously on murder 1.

      Same thing with respect to manslaughter and murder 2.

      They are lesser included instructions.

      Therefore, if self-defense were rejected, the shooting necessarily had to be manslaughter, murder 2 or murder 1.

      An inability to agree on M1 takes it off the table.

      An inability to agree on M2 takes it off the table and all must then agree on manslaughter.

      That’s what they were instructed to do.

      Splitting between M1 and M2 was not an option under these or any other set of lesser included instructions anywhere in the country.

      • Marsha says:

        I don’t understand this. If I am on a jury and I think that it is murder one and others say no, it wasn’t premeditated, why does that take murder one off the table? Can’t I refuse to go along with murder two and keep arguing for my position? And suppose some agree with me? And they don’t want to budge for murder 2 either? Do the instructions say it HAS to be murder 2 since everyone agrees it is at least that?

        • Do the instructions say it HAS to be murder 2 since everyone agrees it is at least that?

          Yes, and if they can’t unanimously agree on M2, then it has to be MS.

          Assuming, of course, that the jury has rejected self-defense, which is a defense to M1, M2 and MS.

          Put another way, M2 is a lesser included offense of M1 and MS is a lesser included offense of M2.

          A person who commits M1 also has necessarily committed M2 and MS, but they merge into M1 for sentencing purposes.

          Likewise, a person who commits M2, has also necessarily committed MS because MS is a lesser included offense of M2.

          Offenses merge downward, but not upward because each step up requires additional evidence about the defendant’s mental state.

          This is why it’s nonsensical to say the jury split between M1 and M2. If that were the case, the jury necessarily would have reached a verdict of guilty of M2.

      • J4TMinATL says:


        Wish you could put this explanation as a post. Read this and another post below to partner and was able to understand why there was no disagreement between M1 and lessers on main count.

        Thanks for the explanation.

  30. Louie says:

    So true Crane-Station

  31. Ezz-Thetic says:

    Absurd is absolutely right.

  32. Michael Dunn Trial: White Fear Matters More Than Black Lives


    A Florida jury failed to convict yet another man for killing an unarmed black teenager. By their logic, Michael Dunn should have kept shooting and never asked questions.

    • stan says:

      [comment deleted as inappropriate]

      • Louie says:

        Reality Stan?? You don’t have to welcome me to Reality,
        Reality for me was losing many jobs once I showed pictures of or spoke about my family!
        Reality for me was when my husband and I were chased by White Thugs in New Orleans!
        Reality to me was trying to rent an apartment and being turned down over and over!!
        Reality to me was when the KKK was getting ready to march down our street!!
        Reality to me Stan was holding one of my children crying after they were called a Niger!!!
        You can’t teach me or welcome me to any kind of Reality Mr. Stan!!!

        • Patdeadder says:

          Louie I’m so sorry for the ignoramuses in the white race.
          Right now I’m trying to organize people to go to a hospital to find out why it is named after a former slave owner.

        • stan says:

          I never said I didn’t detest the manner in which this country has and continues to discriminate against African Americans.

          I never said I wasn’t personally doing everything in my power to guarantee that all people in this country regardless of their geographical variety, ethnic origins or religion or lack thereof enjoy all freedoms guaranteed to all Americans by the Constitution.

          I never said that my heart was not broken to seen the needless deaths of so many young African American people.

          I never said that it wasn’t a crime against humanity to see how many African American people live in abject poverty in a sea of crime and drugs in too many of our once great cities.

          No, I never said these things.

          What I did say is that these are the realities of life for too many African Americans.

          And considering the seemingly innate prejudice of white American against anyone who is not a WASP, it’s not about to change soon.

          It is heart breaking!

      • Louie says:

        So Sad to see the way you feel! Things will Never get better thinking the way you do Stan.

      • Well, not if we don’t do anything about it. We are trying to change all that, and I am hoping the ‘new media age’ can play a part!

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