Saturday night review of the Dunn trial 2/15/2014

Saturday, February 15, 2014

Good evening:

The Good News

A semblance of order has been restored to the universe. After deliberating for 33 hours, the jury in the Michael Dunn case convicted of him of 3 counts of attempted murder in the second degree involving Tommy Stornes, Tevin Thompson and Leeland Brunson. Each crime was committed with a firearm. It also convicted him of discharging a firearm into a vehicle.

Dunn must be sentenced to a minimum of 75 years and could be sentenced up to a maximum of 105 years.

Since he is 47-years-old, he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

There do not appear to be any issues for appeal that are likely to result in reversal of his conviction.

The Bad News

The jury was unable to reach a verdict as to count 1, which charged him with the premeditated murder of Jordan Davis. We do not know what the split was about or the vote because the jurors declined to talk to the press.

State Attorney Angela Corey announced that her office will retry Dunn on count 1.

Dunn remains in custody and is scheduled to be sentence the week of March 24th.


We went over 2 million views for the site tonight in just a little over 2 years. Thank you to all of our readers.

Fred and Crane.

178 Responses to Saturday night review of the Dunn trial 2/15/2014

  1. colin black says:

    Crane-Station says:

    February 16, 2014 at 9:44 am

    How long do you think it will be, before he hurts the next person?

    It hurts me that eejits evil intended malice aforethought creeps like foggage an those policemen whom beat a vulnerable human to death.
    Get to draw breath as free men everyday,
    It hurts me that people die In the UK due to lack of resouses closed hospitals .Nurses laid off an Doctore replaced with cheaper salaried Doctors from Abroad India an the Bahamas ect ,

    An yet the most notouous Child Killer In British History left alive now that his accomplice Myra Hyndley has died Ian Brady.

    Profess he wants to die by hunger strike?
    He has as to date been on the longest hunger strike in the history off mankind About 20 odd years at this juncture.

    Trouble Is unlike the I R A protester whom where allowed to commit suiside by starvation..
    Deemed sane .

    Ian Brady Is In a secure mental hospital deemed insane so unable to make ratinal choices.

    So he is fe every day through a tube inseted down his throat an pumped in liquidised goodies or a soup of whatever .

    Plus he him self drinks copius amounts of sweet black tea wich the sugar content alone could sustain the ault khunt.

    Garanteed I f they said alright Brady go ahead an starve your self .He would start eating again of his own accord.

    This O A P must be at least 89 or so by now .

    Gets the best care and attention of any person In the UK every heart murmer or slight sickness he gets imeadiate treatment by the best doctors possible.

    And yet there are non child killing O A P s never commited a crime In there lives .Left to rott In run down poorly staffed nurseing homes .

    Farmed out by the N H S because they offered the cheapest tendered contract.

    Reason being they cut costs cut corners pay minimum wage have

    Poor untrained unmotivated staff.

    An even worse abuse abounds at thease places horroe storys of Patients left in there soiled bed clothes for days infected bed sore ect.

    Things like that realy realy hurt an piss me of.

    An yet animals that commit atosites must be seen so they are treated with kid gloves lined with velvet.

    An that was me hanging WALLPAPER!

  2. Trained Observer says:

    Given Dunn’s big talk about going back to contractor work for HP and then Zerox after his acquital, I can’t help but think there’s a big smirk laced with relief among workers at those companies. Who wants to be even loosely associated with scum like Dunn?

  3. Boyd says:

    I wonder if the Juror ever considered Dunn never shot at the window because Davis had ducked down. As would I if I saw a gun pointed at me. That’s premeditated murder for me. .

  4. bettykath says:

    The message of “it’s ok to kill a kid for mouthing off” is really scary but it would solve the over-population problem. For example, I never would have made to adulthood. Neither would any of my siblings, so none of my nieces or nephews or greats would have be here. That’s 30 people at least. For that matter, my father would never have made it past 10. I’ll bet several of the folks on this blog wouldn’t be here either, so neither would your progeny. What a concept!!! Kids mouth off, kill them, over-population problem solved.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Did you see his daughter’s statement about my dad taught me to question authority….blah blah…oh the irony.

      • bettykath says:

        It’s a wonder she’s still alive.

        • bettykath says:

          Maybe there was a caveat: question any authority but your dad’s. That was the message from my dad but I didn’t listen and questioned his authority quite a bit. Still wonder how I made it to adulthood.

        • Malisha says:

          no it’s not — daddy was teaching her to question authorities HE disagreed with. So long as he was in control. That’s why SHE was the one being loyal to him.

      • Trained Observer says:

        No, J4, hadn’t seen. Michelle or the other one with the Facebook page that’s been taken down?

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Rebecca Dunn

          “That is something my father showed me at a very young age. Always persevere, always question authority and always do what is right. And that is exactly what he did.”

  5. Trained Observer says:

    ONE QUESTION: Could Corey also have included an “attempted murder” charge for Jordan Davis within the package of counts?

    It’s likely this jury would have gone for that, since it did for the other three teens. Then Dunn would be doing a minimum of 20 for Jordan, a prospect that soothes the soul.

    Also, once the jury labored through a conviction on “attempted” for Jordan, it might have been easier for all 12 to see that BINGO, Dunn succeeded in murdering Davis.

  6. bettykath says:

    An interesting article about NYC cops being sued more than 10 times each.

    • Malisha says:

      Right. I saw a case where two cops arrested a father for refusing to allow the mother to have custody when the court order said she could; they spoke rationally with him and he refused to leave the premises he was told to leave so they arrested him, for refusing to obey a lawful police order (same as when a demonstrator refuses to vacate a location he’s ordered to leave or a trespasser refuses to leave) and resisting arrest. He spent one night in jail and then his lawyer got the CRIMINAL CASE kicked over to the MATRIMONIAL court (civil!) by some act of corruption (because there is no legal way to do that) and the matrimonial judge (already corrupt) dismissed the charges so THEN the guy sued the police and got a $75,000 settlement. The city attorneys refused to listen to a brief the mother put in saying that the definition of “false arrest” had to be that there was a favorable outcome in the CRIMINAL TRIAL which there never was (because it became a “divorce case hearing” instead) but the city attorneys refused to make that point, refused to challenge the suit, and refused to fight it. THEY HANDED THAT MAN $75,000 rather than to apply the law as written! Taxpayer money!

      • bettykath says:

        There are abuses but, read the article. There are hundreds of cases. They can’t all be fraudulent.

        • Malisha says:

          Oh no I wasn’t suggesting that at all. Most of the abuses don’t even get noticed, so no lawsuits ever. And most people the cops abuse can’t find someone to represent them.

  7. bettykath says:

    I’m not sure that Dunn would have done any differently if the boys were white. I see Dunn as an arrogant bully who wouldn’t stand for defiance from anyone. I think things escalated as fast as they did because his sense of entitlement is so much stronger when dealing with Black kids. So, yes, race was a factor, but the overriding factor was his sense of entitlement. No one could defy him as Jordan did.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh I think that’s right but on the other hand, four white kids in a car would have made him feel less sure about getting away with it. Part of the way these bullies react is by making sure they pick on people THEY think nobody else will defend. He displayed that with both of his ex-wives. The power coefficient has to be very large for a coward-bully to go into full gear.

  8. a2nite says:

    Thanks for being here everyone.

    • Malisha says:

      THere was no better place to be, a2nite. πŸ˜€

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i don’t know, malisha .. as i stated elsewhere, i was in an SUV full of teens playing loud music. it felt pretty damn good too, we all celebrated the verdict. this was an excellent spot to come home to though.

        speaking of those teens with me who were celebrating the verdict — THAT is precisely what gives me hope. my girls, their friends and family of all colors in the spectrum, running the entire gamut on the gay straight continuum. THEY give me hope. there’s a lot of them out there and in the not too distant future, they will be the movers/shakers. i’m glad to know that i have played a part in raising two fine, upstanding, outspoken young women who will only get stronger.

  9. Rachel ‏@CraneStation now
    Decorah Eagle in the nest just now, both of them!!

    • bettykath says:


    • What was really cool about this sighting just a few minutes ago is, they mated in the nest and on camera. Their mating vocalizations are very distinct. We feel like we won the lottery, watching this, and I hope RRP puts the clip on YouTube. If they do, I will post a Decorah Eagles article.

  10. John ‏@linnyitssn 4m
    It’s Sunday in Florida so you can either go to the beach or profile and kill an innocent black kid and secure your book deal. #DunnTrial

  11. Michael Dunn verdict: Lawyers plot next move after jury deadlocks on murder charge

    “Meanwhile, defense attorney Cory Strolla said he plans to appeal based on several issues, including how the jury could reach guilty verdicts on four counts and deadlock on another.”

    Um. That is not a basis for appeal, Mr. Strolla.

    • Trisha0620 says:

      lol what law school did this guy go to?

      • Malisha says:

        The law school that taught if you have a rich enough client who is motivated to litigate more and more, you have only yourself to blame if you do not take advantage of that happy circumstance.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      I don’t know the law as well as Prof and others do but the transfer intent argument might have merit.

      It’s baffling that at least one person believes his affirmative defense of self defense against Davis but can agree he is guilty of attempted murder in the 2nd degree (which I’m still unclear if the law is written that 2nd degree there must actually be an injury) on Thompson, Brunson, and Stornes all of which are supposed to stand as separate counts but NOT be racking up charges.

      If the judge refused to answer that third question and instead told them read your instructions (Corey wanted that) would they have convicted him on remaining charges? You can’t argue that the jury made a compromise and found him guilty on the 3 because they didn’t agree on the first. Where the judge was consistent was telling them that they could be hung on one of the counts and not others. I suppose since the judge did not know which count could be hung then there is no issue. Judges response said you must consider the defense of self defense for each and every count. And I think that’s what Dennis is getting at when mentioning reverse transfer.

      We know every objection is grounds for an appeal. Defense objected. I don’t know what will happen from here.

  12. dianetrotter says:

    It is mindboggling that they could not bring in a murder verdict for dead person (pretty obvious – he is dead) but they could bring in 3 attempted murder?

  13. Boyd says:

    Thank you for you summary Professor, I’d much rather get an opinion form you than from those on TV.

  14. YQ says:

    There is always two sides to the coin. Imo, justice was served for the families of the 3 other occupants of the SUV. Justice wasn’t served for Davis, just yet. I always felt like Angela Corey and team were a fair bunch, tho. I felt like M1 or M2 was a lock in. Had to be a stealth juror and it really doesn’t have to be an Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson in order for race to become a marquee symbol for these types of trials. Those guys have their own agenda on jury duty and not much has to be said to them. They will just go into the deliberations and pick the white guy, and no matter how we view it, there’s always some sort of justification for them to pick the white guy. It’s like an unwritten code. Would I love to see the case retried with Dunn in orange scrubs? Hell yeah!!!

  15. MDH says:

    I figured there was a high probability of a hung jury. All it takes is a few people with views like Dunn on a jury. People like Dunn are selfish, so the Dunn brains that hung the M1 probably caved on the lesser charges so that they can go back home. What we can thank is those that opposed the Dunn brains to keep that verdict hung. Taking a stand requires sacrifice and that, IMO, is what separates us from them. Their mantra is based on acting in the self-interest and ours is based on a duty to our brother man. They may win some battles but they sure as hell won’t win a war.

    And that is how racists should be fought. Anywhere, there is a shit like Dunn, I’ll be there. Apply that thought to this scene from the Grapes of Wrath.

  16. crazy1946 says:

    ******RACE & THE MICHAEL DUNN TRIAL*******
    I know some of you (actually many) will disagree with what I am about to say, that is your right and privilege, but before you dismiss my words as rubbish, actually take a moment and think about them.

    While I do not like AC (her attitude and demeanor are offensive to me), I think she and her team did a pretty good job over all. There was a conviction on the majority of the charges, but not on the primary charges. While some think this was just receiving crumbs because he was not convicted on the primary charges, you are using the glass half full or half empty premise. AC, and if you listened to Jordan’s parents, have stated their intent to go forward with a re-trial of Dunn on the 1st degree murder charges. So all is not lost yet!

    Race, yes Dunn is/was a full blown racist, and IMO race was the true motive for the attack and murder committed by Dunn, but it was not one of the charges brought by the grand jury. If you think for a moment, if race had been brought to the fore front in this case, prior to the trial especially, do you really think we would not have seen stealth jurors come out of the wood work wanting to be on the jury? I honestly think we had at least one on the jury as it was, but that one was more of less forced to go along with the conviction on the attempted murder portion of the charges, or the entire case would have been forced to retried. Do you honestly think with the jury pool being like it is in the state of Florida, that a case based primarily on racial prejudice would have been resolved with even a conviction on any of the charges? I don’t see that it would have happened….
    I am keeping the faith that upon the retrial of Dunn on the murder charges that we will see a conviction for the murder of Jordan Davis and closure for not only his parents, but the people of this nation as well. I don’t see a conviction for murder one but I do see a conviction for murder two…. But if we push the race issue as hard as some would like, I see an acquittal of the murder charges, brought about by a loading of the jury with stealth jurors… Do we want a conviction because the man murdered a child or do we want to lose based on continued racial prejudice? Is the legal system fair and impartial in Florida, no it is not. Do we fight the system and continue to lose or do we fight using their rules and make changes gradually in favor of equality for all people regardless of race? I vote for working within the system and make changes that will bring true justice for all…

    • Malisha says:

      See exactly what you mean, Crazy, and appreciate the analytical and strategic thinking that went into it.

      Personally, I don’t care about the future path of the Jacksonville prosecution and I do think Corey did a very good job of this trial (she could have done a bit better but I’ll take good enough as good enough). She was walking a tightrope because she is a politician and she is on the rise. (That alone makes me happy for only one — two — reasons: (1) It will make Fogen mad; and (2) It will make Dershowitz mad.)

      I am not of the opinion that our society is slowly working its way toward decency, equality, and [whatever the opposite of racism is]. Especially not toward JUSTICE. I think that is all “game over” and this is why I am glad I have no grandchildren. (HORRIBLE THING for a Jewish mother to say!) So I can’t see us as making changes gradually in the right direcction. ALL I see is that in certain cases, we can achieve a less than all-out-unacceptably-horrible result, and that’s what we got, and I am so so so so soooooooooooo delighted that we did get that.

      Am I grateful? Yes: to cops, to the prosecution team, to the jurors who wouldn’t cave and let the murderer walk, to the parents and John Phillips (especially for posting that interview with the neighbors!!!!!!!!!) and YES YES to the guy who took down the license plate number and brought us the trial.

      Am I hopeful? Only for this: For FEAR on the part of the next murderous racist who thinks he’ll get away with killing some Black kid to boost his [deservedly] flagging ego when he has a bad hair day because of his desperately dysfunctional family.

      • crazy1946 says:


        “I am not of the opinion that our society is slowly working its way toward decency, equality, and [whatever the opposite of racism is]. Especially not toward JUSTICE. I think that is all β€œgame over”

        While it would be easy to agree with that statement, I refuse to throw in the towel and concede defeat… I’m old, I’m tired, and each day it is harder for me to keep the faith, but at this time I refuse to simply cower down and allow these bullies to dictate the future for my fellow citizens! I am not naΓ―ve enough to think many fruitful changes will take place in my life time, however that will not stop me from continuing the fight for equality for all members of our society…. Only we can decide if changes will take place, if we stop fighting then who will carry the torch forward? Change will and must happen and I refuse to allow it to not happen…

        • Malisha says:

          I agree with you on conduct (continue to act like there can be positive change) because all we can control is our own conduct. Where I depart from you is in the HOPE category. I don’t believe I have HOPE any more, although I surely ACT as if I have it. Maybe I’m fooling myself and telling myself that I have no hope so I don’t hit the wall as hard with each piece of evidence that my hope was misplaced.

  17. Malisha says:

    I can just see the “ineffective assistance of counsel” habeas now. Strolla did not properly investigate the criminal background of the thugs in the car; Strolla did not cross-examine Rhonda properly to bring out the goodness and rightness of FoDung’s behavior; Strolla did not get an expert to talk about FoDung’s being “crazy with grief”; etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh, and there was prejudice because of the composition of the jury with two thugs on it. And a communist jury foreman.

      • Malisha says:

        Hey I’m cool why don’t I just go ahead and write FoDung’s habeas for him right now and then send it to him in prison and say if he arranges to pay me $100-K he can have it? I can foresee the whole thing right now! Boo hoo they didn’t treat me fair how come I ain’t equal to Fogen boo hoo I’m a victim and I shouldn’t oughta be a victim because I’m — by definition — the good guy and the pizza in this place stinks.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Malisha, Perhaps the loss that RDD (Really Done Dunn) suffered was due to his choice of counsel? Should he have hired a Gay, Black, Female to represent him? That way he would have had all the bases covered on the prejudice accusations…. Ok, bad joke… The devil made me do it, is the only excuse I have, so that one will have to work…. πŸ˜‰

  18. shyloh says:

    Michael Dunn is a son also. What he did was terribly wrong. I can’t imagine living the rest of my life in a little cage like a bird. Justice needed to be served.
    If it were my son/daughter, I’d still love him/her unconditionally. I’d spend the rest of my life crying and aching for him/her. But not JUST because he was living in a little cage like a bird. I’d be thinking how could my child take another life out of anger. I don’t know much about his parents and how they raised Michael. But it’s got to be hard on them as well. And to think he went to his son’s wedding and he wasn’t close to his own children. I can’t imagine how they feel as well. They may even be angry how he handled things in this situation.

    I will pray for all of them as well, and continue to hold in there for Justice for Jordan.

    Some of the jurors might of thought Jordan provoked this situation, therefore Michael was in fear for his life. Jordan should not of turned the music back up. Where the jurors went from there is anyone’s guess. With witnesses I can’t see them not coming to a conclusion of 1st degree murder. Michael Dunn was wrong in trying to kill Jordan who was unarmed. And yes LOUD music was not an excuse.

    • Sanity and caring. Our country and the world needs more people like you.

    • Malisha says:

      About how Dunn was raised, I found the neighbors’ interview very interesting. The description of his mother (“hard core” and very abusive) reminding me of Gladys zimmerman and of my mother-in-law. TOTAL CONTROL of her sons. It was all about HER. Reminded me, also, of my mother-in-law. One time her older son (my brother-in-law at the time, and the in-laws all lived with us in our house) was in a conflict of some sort with her and she did her usual “Oh I am so sick I have pressure!” and took to bed to make him feel guilty. He was a heating and plumbing repair guy so he was on the road and this was before cell phone days so whenever he was between jobs he would go back to the dispatch office or go to a phone booth and call to check on his mother. She was up and about doing whatever she wanted and when the phone would ring she would run to her bedroom and shout for me to answer it and instruct me to say she was too sic to talk. I would pick up the phone and he would ask for her and I would say, carefully worded, “Your mother told me to say she cannot come to the phone.” That is all I would say and the there would be a call an hour or two later.

      This kind of parenting lasts a lifetime. Here was a 40-year-old man being emotionally jerked around by a 65-year-old manipulative b—h. This guy, now near 80, owns guns, spouts hostility and rage at all times, and has no friends.

    • riisey007 says:

      I agree with some of what you are saying but Jordan did not have to obey Dunn, he could turn it up as high as he wanted to. If anyone out there were opposed then they could have called the cops. I am sure no one called because all of us have heard loud music before. I blast it while I clean,cook, and even take a shower sometimes. Music makes people feel good and in the words of Bob Nesta Marley ” when it hits you feel no pain” we all know that had they been blaring Bruce Springstein Michael Dunn would have been clapping his hands and singing until he drove off. People do not get to take the law into their own hands. I pray for the family of Jordan Davis especially his mom, he was her only child, that is so sad. She will never have grandchildren but Dunn has children and is still alive. His smugness showed that he had no remorse and was sure that he would get the Zimmerman treatment.

  19. shyloh says:

    Juror number 7 was the foreperson. Was he/she black or white? Just curious is all!

    • Good is good. Jordan’s mom’s inspired words rotated my immediate response to the verdict. She offered healing intentions to the prisoner. Which on another level shows the man Jordan would have have grown up to be. They’lle get their day in court yet.

      Was driving to Palm Springs & couldn’t watch live, so watched the tape on YouTube. Did anybody see this? It’s a study in a killer. After the verdict is read & after a first batch of folks exits the court, the camera goes back to Michael Dunn who’s standing there in deep shock. Atty. Strolla at one point reaches to touch his arm & he sort of snaps back & gives him a mean cold stare, a killers stare. He then pivots with his arms by his sides to the gallery and looks at his father & shrugs his shoulders… don’t get glimpse like that everyday.

      The kinetic energy released by MIchael Dunn in creating a spark between a hammer & some gun powder encased in metal is still hurtling & it is now propelling his human form into a living nightmare no one should ever know. Thanks to all for indulging me & sharing this journey, 73’s

      • riisey007 says:

        Well he only used Strolla as his attorney because he wanted to seem like he wasn’t a racist. I am sure they studied all of the Zimmerman trial. Strolla is correct in saying that this would not be happening if not for the Zimmerman trial, it is true because Dunn would never have been so bold had it not been for the Zimmerman case. Strolla will now be pining for a job at CNN. I found it interesting Omara stating Dunns guilt on t.v. I am sure he knows Zimmerman is guilty as well.

      • dee truth says:

        If the Dunn’s and the Zimmerman’s, and their supporters had an ounce of the class that Trayvon’s and Jordan’s parents have, the world would be a much better place.

      • Yeah, I saw that too and I have been on the receiving end of a glare like that and know exactly what it feels like.

    • anita says:

      Asian lady. I am dying to know the vote split.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Well ain’t that interesting

      • Lynn says:

        When they said #7 I instantly looked at the chart to see who it was. It made perfect sense in my mind. Someone with an analytical mind who goes step by step methodically and isn’t afraid to speak her mind. Young and driven. I could see her pushing to keep communication open each time they hit a wall. A lesser jury (*cough*Zimmerman 6) would not have stuck it out 30+ hours.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      juror #7 was the asian woman

  20. fauxmccoy says:

    ’tis a bittersweet victory, but will take what we can get, for now, live on to fight another day. as the saying goes ‘the struggle continues’.

    for the sake of ronald davis and lucia mcbath, may this next struggle be mercifully brief and bring some resolution.

  21. Is it just me or is that court room and judge a whole lot more sophisticated than the Zimmerman one.

  22. Liza says:

    I felt immense relief that my hometown did not replace Sanford as “the ugly face of racism and lawlessness.” I did believe, however, that the two black women on the jury would stand against an all out acquittal. It is going to be interesting if a juror speaks and we learn the split on count one and the exact point of disagreement. I suspect it was self-defense given the questions that the jury asked.

    I’m trying to think of this as a multi-step process. Dunn still needs to be convicted of the murder of Jordan Davis. That needs to get done.

    • I think so too and wonder if it will be easier now, or harder now, or simply the luck of the draw with a new jury?

      • The prosecution has the advantage at a retrial because it has seen the defense case and can adjust its case accordingly.

        Would be nice to know what the split was.

        11-1 to convict is more likely to be retried than 11-1 for NG.

    • Lynn says:

      Hi Liza! I, too, am local. I’m in Clay now but lived many years in Duval. We may never know what the voting lines were 11-1 or 1-11 but, because you know the areas and the people of Jax, I’m wondering if you had any input or a wild guess as to which might have been our hanger? Or which worried you according to the statistics. (Married/single/occupation/area lived in)
      I had a bad feeling about juror number 3 the whole time and when they asked the jury to reply whether the verdict was correct…I swear to God, I had chills when I heard his voice. Very loud. Sure didn’t make me feel any better about my bad feeling.
      Just picking your brain. Nothing scientific. Just gut feelings or maybe no feelings at all.

  23. Well, I don’t think there’s any doubt amongst us that race played a role in Jordan/Trayvon murder. What causes me anguish is the refusal to admonish this to a jury. In both cases the common denominator was the refusal to add in evidence that showed a racial bias by the perpetrator. Without that as the possible motive for their hostility then the belief in self defense seems more palatable.

    If you combine that with people on the jury who feel like blacks have a dog in this fight, they will fight to keep black people from getting a “win”(that’s the best way I can put it). They’re not going to convict the defendant because its like that juror is telling the Justice system they’re wrong, there is racism out there, when they themselves would rather have people believe racism doesn’t exist anymore amongst these institutions. Imagine you’re a juror and you recognize there is something wrong with Dunn or Zimmerman and yet you can’t tell the other jurors that “hey, I think race played a role in this murder” without them saying “you’re biased, there is no evidence of race bias by the defendant at all” simply because the prosecution chose not to put it in. Hence, not guilty or otherwise they would have to say there was racial bias.

    This is why Angela Corey must go, she will never admit racial bias by the murderer when trying a case like this and hence the defendant can act like he’s an angel because absolutely no character assassination will take place because they don’t want to take a chance of having racial bias entering the case in the court systems effort to participate in denying the continued existence of racism.

    I know you have to read this about 6 times for it to make sense but its bedtime and that’s how I think.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Leroy, what you said about race us unfortunately true on every level No matter what an article is about, some commenters take it to Obama or thugs. The school system always provides “anger management” for kids … mostly Black.

    • I agree. White-washing the evidence to conceal a raced-based intent to commit a crime may imperil the success of a prosecution and produce an unjust verdict.

      Although motive is not an element of most crimes, it may be relevant (i.e., probative) to proving specific intent.

    • bettykath says:

      I’m not sure that prosecutors know how to put the race motive into their evidence and arguments so they play it safe by leaving it out. When you don’t know how to do something effectively, something that could blow up big time if you do it wrongly, you will tend to do not try it.

  24. Tee says:

    I just got time to post but I’m pleased he was found guilty of some charges but very disappointed that there is no justice for the life he took. In last night post I was spot on, I knew that they were hung on the murder charge. I knew because for 1 Angela Corey is awful when prosecuting crimes against minorities. I feel the lady is so scared to lose her job she won’t truly fight as hard as she claim to, if she truly was interested in justice she would have charged him with a hate crime. I read those letters and I know he killed that boy because he was a black kid daring to speak back to him.

    • You were spot on. And people are furious with Angela Corey- at least they seemed to be last night. I think people are looking at Trayvon and Jordan, both dead and had the second killer not fired a second round…and then they see Marissa Alexander…and then they see Angela Corey behind it all.

      Splainin to do.

  25. Dennis says:

    I wonder if the judge made an error in answering a jury question. The jury wanted to know “if self-defense is justified against one person, is it justified against the others?” The judge answered, “No, self-defense and justifiable use of deadly force applies separately to each count.” So the judge seems to be precluding any juror who believes all of Dunn’s shots were toward Davis and/or in self-defense from applying the transferred intent standard to the other passengers. That may not have been his intent, but it seems to me that a juror could construe it as such and to me that’s an error. In fact, if you watch the video, before the judge speaks to the jury he ruminates on the question and says “not necessarily” because the question is somewhat vague so the answer is a thorny one to answer.

    Am I completely off here?


    • racerrodig says:

      The judge is saying Duhnn has a beef with Jordan Davis and does not mention the other 3 doing of saying anything that is a threat. so his beef is one on one with Davis. There just happen to be 3 other kids in the truck.

      He stated he wanted to silence JD but keep the heads down of the other 3…….how… shooting. He’s made this into a multiple crime scene.

      It seems they could not agree on M1 – M2 or MS (which is actually good) but they have shooting into a car at 3 kids he had no beef with as even Duuhhnnn stated he had no problem with that AND none of them showed a weapon.

      They very well may have just been walking next to the Dodge and not evening knowing Davis, but since he continued to shoot at 3 non threatening bystanders, guilty on those 3 is a given. It’s the same as if he had a stray round hit a tree where one of the LeBlancs were standing. They never threatened him, but he almost killed one of them.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Good question Dennis. It left me confused. Bettykath offered an explanation on this morning’s jury watch day 4 post that may offer insight.

      I watched the video too and no and not necessarily make a big difference.

      • Dennis says:

        Yes, Bettykath did remark on it, and it still strikes me that the judge’s instruction can be viewed as error because it can be seen as instructing a juror not to apply transferred intent–applying Dunn’s self-defense against Davis to the attempted murder charges. This is why Dunn objected to the judge’s ruling and I’m surprised his attorney allowed the judge to answer the question as he did. Of course, it could be the case that the jury felt some of the shots were not justifiable so self-defense wouldn’t transfer, but we don’t know that and I’m not sure that would matter if a court were to consider this issue.

        Would love to hear Mr. Leatherman chime in and thanks for the response J4TMinATL.

        • Dennis says:

          BTW, Strolla did make mention of applying self-defense to the lessor charges as a possible appeal issue, though not the judges instruction specifically, at the post-verdict press conference.

          • J4TMinATL says:

            Yes I heard him say that too. Just because he does appeal doesn’t mean it will be granted. If it was I believe appellate court would uphold the trial court’s decisions.

            Corey wanted juror instructions to be re-read for that question. Dunn just didn’t understand.

            Professor can expound on the transfer intent and I’d like to hear his thoughts too. I believe you and me are only ones who have questions about that instruction. I’m sure you noticed my confusion on previous thread.

          • J4TMinATL says:

            Forgot to add, I said exact same thing to bettykath that I was surprised Strolla did not object to the judges answer.

    • J4TMinATL says:


      Good read (PDF)

      [Edit: I embedded your link]

      • Dennis says:

        Transferred intent, as I understand it, can also work in reverse with self-defense. So while I can be held responsible for hurting person B even though I only intended to criminally hurt person A, I can’t be held criminally responsible for hurting person B if I did so through intending to justifiably defend myself against person A. As such, if a juror felt all of Dunn’s shots were in self-defense against Davis then they would find him not guilty of the attempted murder charges against the others.

        It’s possible that the jury was wondering if Dunn could consider the others in the car a threat simply because they were with Davis, in which case self-defense would nullify the attempted murder charges. We don’t know exactly why they asked their question, but it just seemed to me that the judge answered it in a way that could be seen as prohibiting a juror from applying reversed transferred intent.

        Thanks for the link to the decision.

        BTW, if case you didn’t know, you can go to to shorten links.

        • Dennis says:

          Let me just add that Strolla did ask the judge to read something to the jury but was denied. Additionally, let me show how transferred intent can apply in this case.

          The first volley of shots are directly at Davis, the second hit the front passenger door. However, the second were most likely intended for Davis again but missed because the car began reversing. As such, if you believe Dunn was acting in self-defense against Davis with those shots you can’t find him guilty of attempted murder against the front passenger.

          The last volley of shots is where Dunn has the problem because it appears he wasn’t just targeting Davis. (Which is to say nothing of the fact that many feel self-defense at that point was no longer applicable because the SUV was fleeing.) As a result, he can’t claim transferred intent but has to make a separate claim of self-defense against the others in the car. Having not watched much of the trial I don’t know how Strolla addressed the last volley of shots, but i’m going to watch his closing to see.

          • I think you’re right.

            Self-defense doesn’t work for the 4 shots at the fleeing vehicle.

          • J4TMinATL says:

            I can follow what you’re saying. At some point in my hysteria, I said only the shot that almost killed Tommy would be attempted murder.

            Let me know what you think of Strolla’s closing because I thought he said if you find doubt then you must find him not guilty on all counts.

            What should have been the judges’ response?

          • J4TMinATL says:

            Professor is this why you thought they could be hung on Brunson count?

            Prof or anyone can you take a look at the definition of attempted felony murder (782.051)

            Does 2nd degree require actual injury?

          • J4TMinATL says:


            Saw your comments on another blog and I think you answered your own question.

          • Dennis says:

            Yes, J4TMinATL, having watched the closings Wolfson probably saved the day by arguing the last volley of shots were not self-defense. Strolla never countered that and essentially tried to side-step it by simply asserting to the jury that if they find Dunn acted in self-defense the other counts are nullified.

            I think the jury’s question about applying self-defense to each separate count of attempted murder may’ve been about whether Dunn could consider the others in the car as threats simply because they were with Davis. If he could, then shooting at the SUV could be considered justifiable. The problem here is that no gun fire was ever returned demonstrating a threat and the SUV was fleeing.

            I think what Strolla wanted read by the judge was the instruction that says self-defense is also a defense to the other charges. But that still leaves Strolla with the argument by Wolfson that self-defense was no longer in play when the SUV was fleeing, especially against Davis’ friends.

            I should note that jury instructions can seem to be a problem in the trial system. The reply to Strolla by the judge in denying his instruction request, in part, was that he was loathe to because that part was very confusing.

    • Malisha says:

      I think any appeal court will have to be verrrrrrry careful thinking about striking down a verdict for that reason, Dennis. How about this scenario: A guy is in a movie theater and the guy in front of him shouts out at a point in the movie that the hero on the screen is gorgeous and he (the shouter) wants to have sex with him. The guy behind him screams, “shut up fag,” and the guy in front leaps to his feet and pulls a gun, “stand up and put your gun where your mouth is, asswipe!” and the insulted heterosexual guy pulls out HIS gun and fires off 9 bullets, the first three of which kill the shouter, but several others maim and kill various other people. Then the fast-draw guy gets REALLY scared because people start standing up and screaming. He doesn’t know who is armed and who isn’t and they all are screaming at him so he fears for his life.

      Can he just kill them all and get off on self-defense in that case?

      I’d stick with Healey’s answer on this one. Otherwise we’re all in the Wild West and I for one can’t stand those whalebone corsets!

      • MDH says:

        Another way to look at this.

        Five bikers, only one having a chain { this happened to me }, approach you and the guy with the chain says “get out or I will fuck you up with this chain”. You pull out a gun and shoot the guy with the chain. After a pause, you then shoot at the other four who are fleeing. I would argue that the four fleeing no longer are a threat to your life, thus eliminating self defense for attempted M2.

        In my case, the guy came out of the dark and struck me in the face. He then told me leave or we {the other 4 appeared} will use this chain on you. The guy hit about as hard as a rubber chicken. So I had to bite my pride, seeing as there were four others, tuck my tail, and leave.

        It is events like the above in my life that cause me to have so little respect for Chicken George and his thug tales.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Lol @malisha

        MDH, sounds scary. Why did they want you to leave?

        • MDH says:

          It was a turf thing. I was at a party that had a lot of suburban teens who were kind of well off. So the local Detroiters were harassing anyone going to the party. The guy asked me if I was from Detroit before he hit me. Of course, I answered yes. And that set him off. The party was on Cody turf and I was from the Redford HS area. The guy who held the party told me he was going to have a “talk” with the guy. All hoods have there knuckleheads. To be fair, there was a thug in my area who liked to also beat on suburban kids. And why do I think Dunn would do shit like that, if had been born poor?

  26. J4TMinATL says:

    Thanks for sharing the 2nd video! I didn’t get to see it.

  27. dianetrotter says:

    I’m toasting with an additional $10. I hope others will follow suit. Thank you Professor and Crane for keeping us up-to-date. I didn’t realize a verdict was in until I checked here.

  28. towerflower says:

    One thing I was wondering…..will the sentencing be concurrent or consecutive? If it is concurrent he will be looking at 20 yrs minimum.

    • bettykath says:

      consecutive 75 years minimum

    • Lynn says:

      And don’t even think about good behavior…

      “Notwithstanding s. 948.01, adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence shall not be suspended, deferred, or withheld, and the defendant is not eligible for statutory gain-time under s. 944.275 or any form of discretionary early release, other than pardon or executive clemency, or conditional medical release under s. 947.149, prior to serving the minimum sentence.”

  29. Transcript of translation of Fogen’s interview with Unavision. Warning: lots of hemming and hawing and victimization tactics and shallow thought. On the good side – well, an attempt to be spiritual and flexible.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Truly ticked me off. People should “apologize” for calling him a racist but he doesn’t need to give a heartfelt apology to the Martins for killing their son.

      • racerrodig says:

        From my childhood….

        Everyone’s calling me a racist……they should apologize for that.

        Okay Fogen…….I’m really sorry you’re a racist….happy now ?

        • dianetrotter says:

          It’s amazing that he feels the only person done wrong was him. Great apology racer!

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you…..I am seriously sorry he’s a lying, race baiting hate monger with a gun. I’m sorry he has cash to burn from all those scams he pulls…..I so sorry I need help from these guys to express myself…..

            Then I found this jewel by accident.


            They raised $310.00 !! I’m shocked it’s that much. Same old hate rhetoric there, but no money. They fell pretty shy of that $40,000.00 mark……maybe Fogen can spot ’em a few bucks !!

      • Tzar says:

        “Truly ticked me off.”
        not sure what you expected, you did that to yourself

    • racerrodig says:

      Lying mo – fo and that mentoring again…..I double dog dare ya to name one kid !!

    • racerrodig says:

      Lying fuck !! He says he always talked to the kids BUT let them talk because they had so much to say……I can dispute that with his own words…..

      “Why are you following me for”

      “What are you doing around here”

      Shit dude……you brag about mentoring imaginary kids and Duuhhnn talks about imaginary shotguns. That that shotgun and blow it out yer ass.

    • Hey, what did you guys make of Fogen saying he’s moving from state-to-state?

      We know he went to Texas after the verdict, and from his and his bro’s Twitter, he was out and about around the time he sold the first painting and may have delivered it personally, as he promised. My theory is he’s exaggerating about travel, trying to cover his semi-permanent address at his GF’s house. I would imagine that if she’s a renter and didn’t own the house that they had their altercation at, that they probably moved to deflect attention.

    • MDH says:

      What a pandering, lying sack of shit.

      Note how he weaves Obama in his tale of woe is me in order to curry favor with a right wing that is starting to distance itself from him.

      The absolute fact is that he is a paranoid shit who falsely thought a kid wearing tan pants, white sneakers and a dark grey hoodie was a burglar. And it is his stupidity and sick mind alone that led to the ruination of many lives including his. A normal decent human being would either have drove on by or struck up a conversation with Trayvon.

      And CNN is going to give this guy air time?

      What they ought to be doing is shaming this creep and any people who think like him.

    • Malisha says:

      Ugh no thank you. Any attempt to be “spiritual and flexible” on his part should be made with the prison chaplain. Then I might be listening.

    • Well that was quick. I got through maybe the first two lies, and then clicked off. What a scumbag, and why is media feeding this troll?

  30. Sophia33 says:

    “In the Heat of the Night” is on right now on USA. In this iconic scene, the suspect responds when Tibbs slaps him back by saying, “There was a time when I could have had you shot”. This movie was made in 1967. Some 47 years later, SYG has made it were the time is now that a black man can be shot for defying a white man. Tragic.

  31. riisey007 says:

    If Dunn ever gets a chance he will kill himself before doing all that time.He just looks like the suicide type. Will there be a jailhouse wedding for him and his fiance or will she write a tell all book instead.

  32. racerrodig says:

    This is, thankfully, a step in the right direction. Those who cry if he killed all 4 of them, he’d have walked, need to rethink this.

    The reality is that the jury (1 or 2) bucked the evidence, but he didn’t really “get away” with anything. If he was convicted on M1 or M2 and acquitted on counts 2, 3 & 4, most people would be jumping for joy irregardless of count 5 !!!

    As the Professor stated he has zippity doo dah grounds for an appeal, and he’s going to be retried. The state could have said, 75 – 105 years…..we win, enough’s enough.

    I look at it like this……he was arrested (pesky homeless guys) questioned, investigated, indicted, held w/o bail, tried & convicted on 4 / 5 charges. I feel for Jordan’s parents & friends like you cannot believe, but this guys is spending the rest of his life in prison, which is where he belongs.

    We didn’t even need a petition !!!!!!!!!

    All of us believed the prosecution did it right……….until there was no verdict after what, 5 hours. Then half of you were belching that Corey did her best to throw this case like happened with Fogen. So the jury took 33 hours. I was on pins and needles just like everyone else, but at least he’s in prison. If there was a leaving the scene of a crime charge and he was acquitted of everything but that, and got 75 years for that, I be happy he’s gone, but disappointed he beat the worst charges.

  33. We would like to extend our gratitude to our readers and commenters, who have been tremendous help, with timely updates and great discussion. Much appreciated.

  34. Lots of mixed emotions out and about tonight. On the one hand, I am thankful for this result. On the other I hate that I am reduced to being thankful for whatever crumbs sort of come our way. This result, therefore, does not indicate a fixed broken justice system by any means. But still, i mean at least the guy didn’t freaking walk away after doing this.

    • racerrodig says:

      I wouldn’t even look at is as crumbs. We don’t know what they hung on. If he was only convicted on Count 5 I would agree. Until we find out what they hung on, this is far better than what many were posting on this site 6 – 7 – 8 hours ago where damnation was the order for the prosecution.

      I’d be thrilled if they were hung between M1 & M2 !!!! I’d sat that’s most likely because if one of them was for not guilty period, I’d bet they would be hung on all 5 or the 1st 4 and only guilty on #5.

      Since we will never find out what or how may were hung on M1, he’s got a serious problem on the retrial and I think he may ask for a deal on that one just to try to barter a clean parole date. That is, I’ll take M2 or MS, give me the minimum on 2 – 5 and hope I live to say……..140 or so.

      Of course, with that thought he may say…….bring it, I can frown for the camera forever…….can Charlie testify ?? after all, he’s my only friend now.

      • Good points, racer. For a while there I had the mindset-hell I’ll take just about anything. I think that maybe, just thinking out loud, that they were hung on the moment in time thing. Just a thought, so yes M1 v M2.

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t agree. I think there was at least one who was insisting on self-defense. I base this on the questions that were asked, in particular, if they agreed on self-defense for count 1, did it apply to the other counts. Once the answer was no, that they were to consider each count separately, they came to an agreement on 2nd degree attempted murder. If it were a disagreement on M1 vs M2, I think the M1 folks would have agreed to M2 and the questions about self-defense would not have been asked. Also, if the disagreement was M1 vs M2, how did they reach agreement on AM2 rather than hand b/c the M1 folks insisted on AM1?

        I think it was M1 but if I were in a jury that was deadlocked on M1 vs M2, I’d start arguing for consensus on M2. I’d have been successful b/c it’s better to have M2 than a hung jury. otoh, I’d never give in to agree to self-defense and it’s unlikely that I could convince those who wanted him to walk that they should change their mind.

        • Barbershoptalker says:

          I’m with you BettyKeth , Just the question alone (if we find that he was defending himself on one charge, does it apply to all the other charges) lets us know what was in the mind of that one person, if not two or more people on the jury. Without them being separate charges, they would have hung this whole case up, if not let him go. So yes overall I’m relieved that he will never see the street again, but deep down we still know that without the murder one charge sticking with all the things that was working against him, including the woman he was riding with him lets us know we still have a problem here in Jacksonville,Fla.

          Victory……but still no justice……IMHO

    • Tzar says:

      In this matter-and the one that recently came before it-we needed the jury to make a statement of rectitude and national ethos, and barely one of legal technicality, the former is the gene-ral grain missing that leaves this verdict barren. The epigenetic pen was to rewrite the societal dna and apropos translate a new communal life where all children are given the modicum of human value-the right to life and life free from terror- this the verdict did not do. This was to be an indictment of our national subliminal premeditation on race and on violence in the form of Dunn’s subliminal disposition on race and violence.

      In some ways we may be too far removed from living in the stable center of what I redundantly call our “connected society”, to even realize that barring violent premeditation is a modest beginning in defining a murder of the first degree and the goal is for the trained subliminal and all subsuming premeditation of peace to be a seminal requirement of innocence, and ultimately of good citizenship.

      • Tzar says:

        correction: the dash between “it” and “we” in the first sentence is an error, the one between “gene” and “ral” in the same sentence however is on purpose πŸ™‚

      • Beautifully written and well, a patina of justice, when you look at it this way: 1) had Jordan Davis been alone in the car, the jury would have hung. Hard to fathom, but they would have.

        So, by logic, had Dunn not fired the second volley into the fleeing vehicle, he could have walked, likely as not.

        The criminal justice system isn’t fixed. Not by a long shot. Plus, Michael Dunn is a stylized character that represents everything that a paranoid, racist culture is selling, literally and figuratively. The extreme beliefs about ‘thugs’ and ‘gangsters’ and their surely lurking ‘friends.’ The ‘suppression fire.’ All fake threats and reactions to them. He bought into everything the whackos are selling, and he bought a lemon.

        • MDH says:

          And Dunn likely represents thinking that will be part of about 20% of any jury that dispenses “justice”.

          Would a man or women {yea, I mean B37} who thinks like Dunn have found Davis guilty?

          • Happened in Zimmerman. So, I mean, am I actually sitting here thankful today, about that second volley of shots? Seems crazy, but true maybe.

          • MDH says:

            That type of thinking is what keeps the USA from being remotely post-racial.

            The two big problems in justice are assumed characteristics on the part of Black Americans and infallibility of and act by a police officer.

            The real way to solve this is to objectively educate our populace that those two problems are real.

            Instead the media feeds the propaganda.

            For example, a headline will scream “blacks commit X at a rate 1.8 time whites”. This gives the perception that blacks are thugs.

            Ok, most criminal acts are perpetuated by a small percentage of the population,

            For arguments sake, let it be 2%

            That would mean blacks commit X at a rate of 3% of their population based on the propaganda headline.

            What the headline does not scream is that 97% of blacks and 98% of whites do not commit X.

            And that is what cost Trayvon his life.

            Shit brain could not see that it was far, far more likely { a probability of 95:1 } that Trayvon was doing nothing wrong.

            I loved this from Naked Gun

            Frank: What are his chances?

            Ed: 50:50, although there is a 2% chance of that.

            Frank ??????

            The presumption of guilt on the part of black individuals based on propagandizing statistics is killing black children.

        • Barbershoptalker says:

          1) had Jordan Davis been alone in the car, the jury would have hung. Hard to fathom, but they would have

          THANK YOU CRANE!!!!!

          opps my bad didn’t mean to yell, just got a little excited. I’ve been sitting here thinking that same thing for the longest time. Just as Trayvon could not speak on his behalf, neither would Jordon.

          They don’t even want to believe his girlfriend…or the other two sibling witnesses, or the police, or the medical examiner, or the telephone logs……should we go on?

        • Tzar says:

          had Jordan Davis been alone in the car, the jury would have hung. Hard to fathom, but they would have.

          So, by logic, had Dunn not fired the second volley into the fleeing vehicle, he could have walked, likely as not.

          that is exactly the statement they are making and why it is so darn problematic

  35. Sophia33 says:


  36. concernedczen says:


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