SYG statutes violate the Fourteenth Amendment

Tuesday, July 30, 2013

Good afternoon to all of our friends.

In this article, I argue that the SYG statutes violate the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment because they are being used to justify and, in effect, license and encourage race-based murders of young black males.

The law of Self-defense

A person can use force, which would otherwise be unlawful, in order to prevent an aggressor from injuring them or someone else. However, they cannot use excessive force, which is defined as the use of force that exceeds the amount of force necessary to prevent being injured.

If a person uses excessive force against an aggressor, the aggressor can use force in self-defense, including deadly force, if necessary, but only if they first offer to quit the attack and withdraw or attempt to withdraw from the fight.

When can a person use deadly force in self-defense?

A person can use deadly force in self-defense or defense of another person, if they believe they are in danger of suffering imminent death or grievous bodily injury.

However, unless a person is inside their castle (i.e., their home), they have a duty to retreat or attempt to retreat before using deadly force. There is no duty to retreat before using deadly force, if a person is inside their castle.

Stand-your-ground (SYG) statutes eliminate the duty to retreat or attempt to retreat before using deadly force outside the castle. In effect, a person takes their castle with them when they leave the home.

As I have said before, this is not a new concept. The western states eliminated the duty to retreat from their laws when they became states and joined the union.

Subjective belief versus Objective reality

Notice that the word “reasonable” is missing from the set of rules that I have provided. I intentionally omitted that word to illustrate as dramatically as I can that (1) a person’s perception of a threat and (2) their decision to use force in self-defense, including deadly force must be objectively reasonable.

In other words, would a reasonable person (i.e., the objective prong of the test) in their situation, knowing what they know about the aggressor (i.e., the subjective prong of the test) believe the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent death or grievous bodily harm?

If the answer to that question is “yes,” the use of deadly force is lawful.

If the answer to that question is “no,” the use of deadly force is unlawful.

The effect of Racism

Racism is not reasonable. A belief that all young black males are thugs or thug wannabees looking for an opportunity to become a thug is a racist belief, no matter who believes it.

It should be acknowledged for what it is; namely, an insane delusion.

When a defendant charged with murder or manslaughter and one or more jurors in that defendant’s case believe that the victim, for example a Trayvon Martin or a Jordan Davis, is a thug or thug wannabee looking for an opportunity to become a thug, no one should be surprised when that juror or those jurors vote “not guilty.”

After all, racists are unreasonable people who regard their prejudiced beliefs as reasonable. They are going to vote “not guilty” because they regard their beliefs as reasonable and they will not understand why other people disagree with them. Instead, they are likely to brand as racist everyone who disagrees with them.

Therefore, the problem with the SYG laws is not that they abolish the duty to retreat before using deadly force in self-defense, which has been the law out west since the western states joined the union, the problem is that racists are commandeering juries and imposing their racist beliefs to acquit racist defendants who unreasonably decided that it was necessary to use deadly force to prevent suffering imminent death or grievous bodily harm.

I have referred to Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis for illustrative purposes in this analysis. In both cases, however, I believe the defendants intentionally killed their victims and knowingly asserted false claims of self-defense hoping to get away with murder.


1. SYG statutes require more than a subjective belief by the killer that death or grievous bodily harm is imminent and the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent it from happening .

2. The additional requirement that people are ignoring is that the belief must be reasonable. In other words, would a reasonable person in the same situation perceive the same danger and respond the same way.

3. The reasonableness requirement is supposed to prevent a paranoid or otherwise delusional person, such as a racist, from getting away with murder.

4. The problem in Florida and many other parts of the country, particularly in the South, is that too many white people think it’s reasonable to believe that all young black males are dangerous thugs or thug wannabees looking for an opportunity to become thugs.


Statutes abolishing the duty to retreat before resorting to the use of deadly force in self-defense or defense of another person, are being used by racists to legitimize the murders of young black males.

Since these statutes are being used to justify and, in effect, license and encourage race-based murders of young black males, they violate the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Therefore, the SYG statutes are unconstitutional as applied and must be stricken.


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304 Responses to SYG statutes violate the Fourteenth Amendment

  1. ay2z says:


  2. ay2z says:

    About the going nowhere in particular, comment, it’s put into context by what he says to the cop when he is asked where he is going. The killer says, ;you didn’t see my name?” (on the reg’n papers).

    He did not want to say where he was going, and knew that pointing out his name, would explain why he would not want to say openily on mic, that he knows cops have.

    Simple. He lied, and minimally, was evasive about his answer. Anyone else tries this, and the cop could get ticked off and not wish you a nice day.

  3. Cercando Luce says:

    Another infringement SYG imposes is that it prevents civil suits. Nothing else does that– a special bonus prize to protect gun killers.

  4. Drew says:

    Three things:

    – is this considered a different ball game now that it’s a totally different trial?
    – why was the SYG stuff waived in the criminal trial? (I got interested slightly after tha point)
    – the writer doesn’t seem to know much about the case: if defense presents a case for SYG with George’s three scratches and claims that TM was a deadly MMA / weapons expert (specialist in concrete arts), with hopes of getting the civil suit thrown out, I believe they will be laughed out of court. Why does the writer of the article even think for a moment that this is likely?

    • sparger says:

      Not knowing much about this case hasn’t stopped anyone from writing articles. George could shoot up a town square and Trayvon would get the blame somehow. ” Poor George was so stressed he had to shoot up the plaza.” Not guilty by reason of mental defect.

    • cielo62 says:

      Drew~ they CANNOT use SYG now that the criminal trial is over. SYG is a PRE-TRIAL motion before a judge. gz waived his SYG freely and in court. He can win in a civil suit only if he can convince another jury that he acted reasonably in self defense BY THE PREPONDERANCE of the evidence, not “beyond a reasonable doubt.” I don’t think this writer has ANY IDEA what he’s saying other than regurgitating MOM’s BS from before.


  5. Mojo says:

    Question: Does having a license to carry a concealed weapon apply only to the state you got it in or does it transfer across state lines? What if a state doesn’t allow concealed carries?

  6. Drew says:

    Speaking of SYG, came across this just now and was curious what you all thought of it.

    • cielo62 says:

      Drew- I think whoever wrote it is wrong on one key point: the SYG immunity hearing is a PRE TRIAL hearing and gz has already waived that. He cannot use SYG now.


    • sparger says:

      I went over to that article you posted. Why do I read the comments. The same people are posting straight up lies. They have zero knowledge of the facts and they continue to post lies.I don’t understand.

    • I believe it’s too late for GZ to seek immunity from civil suit.

  7. degraveegmailcom says:

    Who says this is even true? Part of the crazy pr campaigne for
    white supremacy, gun loving. trigger happy, rightwing, kkk,neocon,
    real amurdikans, if you ask me.

  8. KateW says:

    Obviously this killer fears no one, he didn’t need a disguise and he had no body guards and he is riding around in his new truck from his fresh donated blood money. He’s living the good life. He gets pulled over for speeding and he gets off with a warning LOL Kill a unarmed Black child and you get free passes everywhere. They just pat you on the back everywhere you go. He is an a**hole and I hope he chokes to death.

    I have a question. LLMPapa made a video where he says this killer gave a sample of his screams to the police. Why was this never introduced by the state. Why?? Why with a lot of things. WHY!!! This man does not deserve to be free after what he has done.

  9. Sounds like Shellie wasn’t along for the ride.

    • Woow! says:

      Professor….. on a serious note, I am sure George does not have a license to carry in Texas so why didn’t the copy confiscate that gun? In any other circumstance in TX that driver would have been arrested or had the weapon taken away.

      This man is going to get a pass no matter where he goes. All of these states are contributing to the death or injury of the next person this lunatic comes in contact with.

  10. sparger says:

    I hope George doesn’t act the fool in Texas. I can see this fool killing someone else because he feared for his life.

  11. Brandy says:

    TMZ has the pic of traffic stop along with the story. Georgie sure is making his rounds in the media and with cops. It will be a matter of time before he shoots and kills someone else. In Georgies mind he is unstoppable and the laws don’t apply to him. Not a good combo of entitlement and being a sociopath! The cop didn’t even give him a speeding ticket! Wished him a safe trip. GAG

  12. Girlp says:

    Seriously, this murderer is running around the country going nowhere in particular? Has he done something or is he about to do something….does he need to ride around the country now hunting imaginary crimminals. I get an uneasy feeling about him I just hope he really is just riding around the US and has not hurt someone or is not looking for someone to hurt. Very strange story.

  13. Elizabeth says:

    @Xena.I have been going through documents at AxiomAmnesia.
    To be exact 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 7th discovery pdfs.
    The info that the keltec 9mm belonged to SZ is not there or was redacted by a thick black bar that leaves no clue as to what was ever under it.
    I can’t even remember how I ever came to know that SZ was the owner.
    Osterman on Dr.Phil does Not mention it either,but at the time of the interview I (or we here)certainly allready had that info.

    • Xena says:

      @Elizabeth. Thanks. I found a reference to the gun being purchased by ShelLIE on Click Orlando. It was in a November discover dump. I used the reference in my post.

  14. Brandy says:

    They just posted the story. They have a pic of his truck and the officer. GZ says… he is not going anywhere LOL. Guess Georgie has turned into a traveling, rambling man! God Help anyone that gets in his way!

  15. Brandy says:

    FYI, GZ was stopped in Texas for speeding. He was packing heat. The story is on TMZ

  16. Woow! says:

    Off Topic – On my lunch break I scanned the news to see what is going on in politics.

    Conservatives are foaming at the mouth because of some interview McCain gave where he supposedly said it will be a tough choice between Hillary C. and Rand Paul.

    I really hope these people do not think Rand Paul could win in 2016. Although I will admit I would finally like to hear him finally answer questions on his right to not serve blacks if you don’t want. He did not finish telling how there is no difference between separating your personal associates from business associations when deciding to discriminate against a certain group of people.

    I may be getting ahead of myself because we already know the media has no backbone and would let him skate with half explanations.

  17. Girlp says:

    I have never understood why SYG was needed you have alway’s been able to defend yourself this law is being used at least in Florida to justify murdering young Black males and should be deemed unconstitutional there is not need for it. Also, if we are going to allow citizens to own guns they should have to have a background check and be licensed to carry, what’s the problem if you have no issues you will get your gun, however if the police don’t have concealed weapons why should private citizens.

  18. colin black says:

    PS forgot again swamphag trunkmom remained silent after her aquittall .

    As just like foggage she had a perverce verdict from a deluded jury.

    She murdered Caylee an everyone knows so.

    She couldn’t face the public the knowing stares an neither will foggage.

    And her guilty silence did not increase her marketbillty the sweet heart big money inteveiw never materialised

  19. LBTG says:

    SYG law was designed as a defense when someone is killed. When Trayvon was murdered, the case should have been treated as a crime – with complete autopsy on Trayvon, questioning of fogen, evidence gathering, pictres & drug tests, gathering of witness statements as though a crime had been committed.

    Why would the Sanford police it it upon themselves to decide whether fogen was guilty or not guilty. That is up to a judge or jury to decide. If fogen knew that he would be required to go to court to defend himself, maybe he would have acted differently.

    The fact that fogen was suspicious of Trayvon – “he’s up to no good” should have given fogen pause for restraint in approaching. Fogen wasn’t afraid because he had a gun – but you’re only supposed to use a gun if your life is in danger. There’s circular reasoning in here somewhere.

    The difference between fogen and the Dunn case, is that Dunn left witnesses.

  20. Xena says:

    Sanford Police tase man in the back of his head. The cop was so close to him that he fell on the man and became tangled in the wires.

  21. colin black says:

    Xena says:

    July 31, 2013 at 11:41 am

    @Girlp. I have wondered why the prosecution did not ask Adam Pollock if he was aware that GZ once worked as a bouncer, and was terminated for throwing a woman across a room? Soft? Apparently only against men in his weight range.

    colin black says:

    July 31, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    He is lieing for air time.
    You notice all the media /money whores want to mugg it up on the media.

    He can say what he likes an conradict himelf one sentence to the next.

    At most he received a quick phone call from foggage the next day .

    ….Hey thanks for vlah blah I had to shoot a mugger last night blah blah…You might want to clean my locker out just in case you no that special supplement stuff?,,,Yup you got it…

    An whilst deftly emptying foggages locker of any incriminating rageroids .
    He spots his membership pass lanyard with the foggages photo.

    That translates to sure I saw an talked to him the very next day
    An in the mind of a scammer its in essence true.

    I meant to add .

    Thease flotsam of personas whom where somehow with in the orbit of foggages life?Can say any thing the wish to about him as long as its not derogattery.

    No publicty is bad publicity at this point in his addled mind.

    An O Maniac is just proveing how unhinged he truly is.

    Just as well his false teeth are better hinged than his mind.

    An the miserable little shrivelled scrotum at the top of the TOTEM POLE of arse holes.

    The man of the moment is absuluutely SILENT

    No statement release through any of the many willing mouthpiece dog whistlers at his disspossale.

    His silence speaks volumes …

    First we know he is no deep thinker an the last year an a bit .
    He never realy envisaged this moment or how to capitilise on it .

    If he thinks playing coy will increase his asking price holding out for the highest bidder..

    Then he is a fool the eejit has alienated T V Stations with fax law suits .
    Barbra Walters with his diva like demands an addendums to contract.

    And very recent history on his own doorstep trunkmoms murder of her own CHILD.

    I still think it the silence of a guilty man .A huge NO COMMENT to the world.

    Where as a truly innocent person would have marched out the court room front doors.

    An give an instantaneous presser to awaiting camras.

    Been on every morning show an innocent person would be yelling from the roof tops.

    A guilty person wouls sculk into silent seclusion an try an work his next con /P R /Scam.

    • Girlp says:

      That’s what so strange they entered GZ hearsay statements why did they not bring in the young woman he threw across the room, the woman in his neighborhood where he busted into her home without her permission(he didn’t get in trouble for it either), the African Americans he harrassed, the man he chased down by car. I found it strange they did not use any of his strange behavior after O’Mara opened that door.

    • Girlp says:

      O’Mara is speaking on the extremist websites, radio and other programs and he is still spreading lies about Trayvon and MJ use, that he was going to make lean etc….yet he appears on national news and says it’s not his job to define Trayvon.

  22. Xena says:

    Attorney Natalie Jackson represented the family of an Orlando man who was shot at 137 times by the police. The case was settled for $450,000.

    • Girlp says:

      I’m not surprised at anything that happens in Florida at this point I’d rather visit Mississippi.

  23. Elijah says:

    Good morning everyone. After the Professor’s post “Will the Center Hold” it seems the answer is yes.

    Call me a cynic, but as small biz guy I don’t know how my beloved USA survives as a consumer friendly market when a broke guy with shitty credit guns down a paying customer. Of course TM’s life was more than this crude example, however on a base level I know parents who won’t let their kids cruise over to the 7/11 for a summer slurpee because their folks didn’t want them walking & we’re too exhausted to take them (I’m talking white middle class folks like me.) I’m from the San Fernando Valley & even here this verdict has put a chill on kids out just enjoying summer, hanging out & spending outside of the internet.

    While I’m at it (dbl espresso morning), when I watched the folks that supported fogen – from the Police to his friends- they were majority Gov’t employees. Court clerks, Fed Air Marshals.. If you earned your living working for the Gov’t you supported him. This is the same lot that screams about Government spending, except them of course. Forgive my crass analysis – but It’s an hypocrisy sandwich.

    Time to hit Matador. Be well.

  24. Woow! says:

    I hope TM parents file a civil suit. We all know the lies Jounya will put out there if they do. Could Tracy and Sabrina sue the Zimmerman’s for slander, libel and defamation of their characters?

    • Xena says:


      Could Tracy and Sabrina sue the Zimmerman’s for slander, libel and defamation of their characters?

      That falls under the count of intentional affliction of emotional distress in the wrongful death suit, and probably with allegations that it was done on GZ’s behalf. After all, Junior nor Taaffe were there to know anything, right?

  25. MDH says:

    I call it blackophobia.

    Any phobia based on non-rational thinking is a form of mental illness.

    Look at how Dunn claims he was in the most fear he had ever been in his life.

    What, this man never got in a heated argument?

    Or was it because the argument was with black males?

    • Malisha says:

      I have found that people who fear me (I’m an old white woman) usually have done something wrong to me that I am unaware of, and they fear me because they are afraid I’m going to find out. When they fear me, then they look for excuses to have negative feelings about me so they can justify their fears. At some point every person who has done this to me has eventually given over to having a fit against me, in which they angrily accuse me of the behavior they disliked AFTER I REALIZED how badly they were treating me.

      Example: A lawyer I hired (gave him $3,600) was refusing to even spend two minutes on my case and wouldn’t read the petition I sent him and kept giving me assignments to complete before he would get to doing what he needed to do. “Put all the events on index cards in order.” “Make a chart with this and that.” “Get a copy of a motion from the circuit court.” “check on this” etc. etc. etc. No action. No action. Finally I called him and wouldn’t discuss ANYTHING except: “Did you read the petition?” He was afraid to say “no” because he was supposed to have done that before taking the money. He was afraid to say “yes” because he knew I was ready to question him on it.

      He had a tantrum and told me that the reason he couldn’t respond to my calls was that every time we spoke I sent him MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE information. He wasn’t there to write a Ph.D. dissertation and he was NOT my student trying to pass oral exams. He had a fit!

      THen when I demanded my file (which contained nothing but the information I SENT HIM, obviously), he wrote me a self-serving letter saying I was trying to keep him out of court and wanted him to try “back door procedures” instead and he had refused because he is a lawyer and cannot do mischief, even for a client, whom he peresonally likes.

      And I realized. He had taken the money and had refused to do anything because he didn’t want to make an enemy in the courthouse. So he was afraid I would find out. HE was afraid of ME because he should have been. I should have been able to do him some damage for what he did.

      It’s a small example. But think of Blacks in the South. The most racist of the whites are particularly likely to be scared of ANY BLACKS because they very well know they have reason to be. If any of the Blacks knew what there really WAS to be known about them — about someone like Fogen for instance — wouldn’t they have good cause for anger?

  26. silk says:

    Racism is an anti disorder . Im currently studying the Dsm-5 and my professor has totally dissagrees with my core belief about racism being a disorder . but i do beleave and i have created power points to explain how in fact it is . but ur right professor , it is a mental malfunction .

  27. Yorazigo says:


    Thank you for your educational & informative website.

  28. Rachael says:

    I know I haven’t said much since the verdict – but that is because I still can’t quite come to grips with it. It makes NO sense. None at all. Let’s look at the scene based on what Zimmerman states (having his head smashed into the concrete again and again, face pounded 20-40 times). Let’s see what it would have looked like had they found a dead Zimmerman and an alive Trayvon.

    They had a guy who chased after someone while armed, now found dead by someone who said, “This crazy guy was following me, he never said who he was or what he wanted, he had a gun so I had to do what I could to save my life. I was in fear of my life.” With GZ laying there armed and dead after already calling and admitting to following, it makes sense there could have been nothing else. So with that SO obvious, why does GZ’s version make ANY sense at all? I mean of course he would say he shot in self-defense, anyone would say that. But like I said, had the police come upon a different scene, how much more obvious could it be that it was TRAYVON who was fighting for his life? Why would anyone “attack” on a rainy dark night out of the blue unless they felt threatened.

    It is just a matter of common sense and I am still reeling from the lack of it.

    • MDH says:


      If GZ had been found beaten to death with his gun laying by his side, why would anyone question Trayvon’s right to defend his life?

      Apparently, Trayvon had no right to go down with a fight.

      That is not justice.

  29. Good morning, everyone. Excellent analysis, Professor! I followed your reasoning and I think racism is a monumental hurdle that needs to be overcome in our national discourse and your SYG argument is a great way to start addressing the issue. You said,

    “4. The problem in Florida and many other parts of the country, particularly in the South, is that too many white people think it’s reasonable to believe that all young black males are dangerous thugs or thug wannabees looking for an opportunity to become thugs.”

    I would posit that there is an overwhelming number of people in this country who find it reasonable to believe that black males are dangerous. Many of those people direct criminal justice/equal opportunity think tanks, make laws, write and administer police policy and procedure, prosecute crimes, hold judicial seats (including SCOTUS), sit on juries, and administer policy for and privately contract with correctional facilities. I can also think of other areas where the marginalization/dehumanization of black people (black males in particular) pervades, such as in our educational system, but I’ll stay on topic.

    IOW, many of those who could change the SYG law would have to be first convinced that their belief about black males being dangerous is inherently unreasonable, which is tough to do when the fabric of our nation was built on that kind of insanity.

    You asked in a post above whether racism should be defined in terms of an antisocial disorder. IMO, racism is not just an individual’s activity and thoughts, but are responses to and reflective of a dangerous/deadly socio-cultural meme that operates systemically and our nation has yet to own and resolve it. Our national systems operate and profit upon the idea that ‘black males are dangerous’ and don’t see anything psychically sick or wrong about that at all. If we were to put it in psychological terms, this country has a kind of racist anosognosia, where it feigns unawareness of racist practices or just flat out denies that racism even exists.

    And so the disorder manifests itself in the area of criminal justice by hyper-surveillance of black neighborhoods, legislating profiling and stop-and-frisk of young black males, a large number of false arrests (‘going for the ride’), and massive convictions and incarcerations. Then social science statisticians compile these numbers to justify to certain socio-political groups that young black males are indeed dangerous thugs or thug wannabees. Adjudicating SYG laws as unconstitutional in application strikes at the heart of all of this and is thus a very viable way to lift blinders, acknowledge the problem, and proceed toward justice for everyone.

  30. Trained Observer says:

    So with all the info, including illustrations, on “shrimp moves” in MMA training, can we assume Fogen was/is too stupid to even know proper terminology for classes he’d taken for months on end?

    Is that how he came up with “shimmying”?

    • ay2z says:

      He was changing all the ‘s’ words to show how innocent about MMA he was, not to even use an MMA term himself. But neighbor John, who only watched MMA on tv, knew all the big move names.

  31. MDH says:

    I see the points being made.

    GZ is a patronizing, self serving liar. So calling Pollock is a way to get him to lie for him.

    Pollock did try to promote that his gym taught GZ.

    I am biased by years of dealing with gyms. IMO, gym owners tend to be unethical scum.

  32. ay2z says:

    Anyone see this current news story? DEA actually apologized and paid off for the’ mistake’.

  33. ay2z says:

    Hold the phone! What about the gun said to be still holstered? What about the jacket ‘moving up’ to expose the gun?

    Put that video in reverse so jacket can move on up 😉

    fogen ‘thanked’ him because that was a hint to support the lie and to spread the lie in testimony on or off tv. (testimony works for fogen, in court or on camera in a studio, all the same for this one, no oath necessary).

    • ay2z says:

      but rolling onto one hip to grab his own gun would explain how he got to it, but why lie? Why lie about so much, including being pinned when it was shrimped instead? Why lie?

      Fogen got his gun and no grab of it by Trayvon, no struggle for the gun, all is made up to suit, and backed up by more manipulat

      • MDH says:

        That would be an admission that he escaped, thus the fear of imminent death, no longer applied. Let us not forget his statement about having Trayvon in a wrist lock. A wrist lock is a submission hold.

        Let put the statements of Pollock and GX together.

        GZ thanks Pollard for teaching him an escape move. This proves the ability to escape harm.

        GZ admits he put Trayvon in a submission hold.

        IF a reasonable person took those statements at face value, then I say they could logically conclude that GZ executed Trayvon because he got pissed off that he was resisting.

        • Xena says:


          IF a reasonable person took those statements at face value, then I say they could logically conclude that GZ executed Trayvon because he got pissed off that he was resisting.

          Resisting and screaming. The screaming brought attention to them. Remember what GZ told Hannity about being terrified that the cop would arrive and shoot him?

          • ay2z says:

            “… to help me restrain him”. The jury missed that didn’t they?

          • Xena says:


            The jury missed that didn’t they?

            Well, Juror B37 was told by O’Mara regarding other jurors, if she would “advise” them that if it didn’t come from the “witness stand”, it cannot be considered.

            Juror B37 told Anderson Cooper that she didn’t think much of GZ’s statements and videos.

            GZ’s statements, audio and video, along with the Hannity interview, did not come from the “witness stand.”

  34. MDH says:

    I meant head near or on sidewalk with face up.

    That shrimp move also explains why GZ had grass stains on the back of his boots but not the toes.

    It has been my theory that GZ pulled Trayvon so hard that he fell backwards while pulling Trayvon on top of him. From that point in the struggle, he quickly regained footing.

    From the above video, he shrimped up from an all grass position to cut his head on the edge of the concrete, thus explaining why the cuts are higher up on his skull than what would be expected from slamming.

  35. MDH says:

    Well, well, well…. the liars pants on are on fire.

    The shrimping escape drill clearly moves one in the direction of their head. So how, pray tell, would that have moved GZ’s head off of the concrete that John Goode testified that GZ was laying horizontal to with his face near or on the sidewalk.

    A more likely reality is that he used that move to get back up after falling backward and brushed his head on the edge of the sidewalk.

    IOW, the cuts were self inflicted scrapes.

  36. MDH says:

    Kokopellis gym is located in Longwood Florida. These are the demographics from Wikipedia.,_Florida

    As of the census[1] of 2000, there were 13,745 people, 5,025 households, and 3,678 families residing in the city. The population density was 2,583.7 inhabitants per square mile (997.6/km²). There were 5,189 housing units at an average density of 975.4 per square mile (376.6/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 81.10% White, 3.60% African American, 0.26% Native American, 2.47% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 3.90% from other races, and 2.42% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 11.1% of the population.

    There were 5,025 households out of which 35.1% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 55.8% were married couples living together, 12.6% had a female householder with no husband present, and 26.8% were non-families. 19.5% of all households were made up of individuals and 8.2% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.68 and the average family size was 3.09.

    In the city the population was spread out with 25.2% under the age of 18, 7.1% from 18 to 24, 30.4% from 25 to 44, 25.0% from 45 to 64, and 12.4% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 38 years. For every 100 females there were 93.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 89.0 males.

    The median income for a household in the city was $60,530, and the median income for a family was $55,758. Males had a median income of $36,309 versus $27,113 for females. The per capita income for the city was $21,714. About 6.0% of families and 6.6% of the population were below the poverty line, including 7.8% of those under age 18 and 5.9% of those age 65 or over. The county is over 80% registered Republican, with over 90% in Longwood being registered as such.

    In 2006, the population was estimated by the U.S. Census Bureau to be 13,491.[4]

    When I perused their website, I got the impression that it deals with hard core fighters and lifters. I used to go the a gym in Virginia like that. It was known to deal in PEDs and a lot of cops were buying and selling. IOW, there could be a lot of reasons for the owner to lie for GZ. The reason I say that is that the PD in that area was clearly pissed off that “outsiders” criticized their work. Just a theory.

    • Sounds like a place to avoid, no matter the cost.

    • Xena says:

      Adam Pollock was on Dr. Drew’s program last night. He said that all he did was put GZ on a diet and exercise program. Then, he said that after GZ killed Trayvon, he contacted him the next morning to thank him for saving his life. Adam asked how and GZ replied that he taught him shrimping, saying that he was able to move his head off the concrete.

      So in one breath, Adam says he didn’t teach GZ anything and on the other hand, he takes credit for teaching GZ shrimping. Also at trial, Pollock testified that GZ had not progressed in any self-defense classes.

      Curious, I looked up “shrimping and MMA” on Youtube and found the following.

      • Girlp says:

        Fogen said he just laid there then decided to shimmy, Pollock is lying either he taught him MMA or he didn’t which one is it. I’m looking up shrimping and MMA as well and it looks more like a tecnique Fogen would have used to try to detain Trayvon to keep him from running away and to control Trayvon when he tried to fight back which I’m sure he did.

        • Xena says:

          @Girlp. IMO, Trayvon was trying to get away. Shrimping is done backwards, but the way GZ explains where his head was, he was moving downwards. Let’s say that GZ shrimped going backwards. That would mean that he moved from one side of the sidewalk to the other.

          Now, I can see that if that is what happened, GZ was pulling Trayvon with him, almost flat on him, which would push GZ’s face on the concrete as he shrimped causing those little scratches on the sides of his head.

          What surprises me is that Pollock said he saw GZ the next morning. When did GZ find time to see Pollock that morning and WHERE?

          Someone at that gym needs to talk, because there’s a good chance there is where GZ got a can of whupp azz opened on him that weekend and that is really why GZ went out of his way to see Pollock to make sure that whomever it was that beat him kept their mouth shut.

          • Girlp says:

            Exactly Xena, Trayvon was attempting to get away from someone who tried to detain him, Trayvon fought back but only to get away not to beat Fogen because he was never beaten. I’m sure he did get his butt beat at the gym I wish someone had a video of Fogen being trained in MMA.

          • Xena says:

            @Girlp. I have wondered why the prosecution did not ask Adam Pollock if he was aware that GZ once worked as a bouncer, and was terminated for throwing a woman across a room? Soft? Apparently only against men in his weight range.

          • colin black says:

            He is lieing for air time.
            You notice all the media /money whores want to mugg it up on the media.

            He can say what he likes an conradict himelf one sentence to the next.

            At most he received a quick phone call from foggage the next day .

            ….Hey thanks for vlah blah I had to shoot a mugger last night blah blah…You might want to clean my locker out just in case you no that special supplement stuff?,,,Yup you got it…

            An whilst deftly emptying foggages locker of any incriminating rageroids .
            He spots his membership pass lanyard with the foggages photo.

            That translates to sure I saw an talked to him the very next day
            An in the mind of a scammer its in essence true.

          • Xena says:

            @colin black. Pollock said when he talked to the other trainer, he had to describe GZ to him for him to remember. I wonder if Pollock described him as a creepy ass pervert?

        • Woow! says:

          Everyone who testified for that CAC lied. Officer Smith the first one on the scene is the word POS because he came on to the scene of a shooting with his gun holstered. Where do officer do that at when they know of gun fire.

          Smith already knew what had gone down and he had no reason to believe that it may have been dangerous to approach with his weapon holstered.

          Did you guys notice with Ramona Rumph that she sighed a little when asked about the NEN calls CAC made. NEN operators were tired of him calling.

          That fat office that testified — what a joke. He had been investigated a number of time for covering up stuff.

          Ex chief Bill Lee is a bitter old man that Bonaparte did not include him when the parents were allowed to listen to the tapes. How dare that “N” tell me what I can’t do. I had not finished my non-investigation.

          MOM – karma is going to have a field day with that man. He was the perfect attorney for CAC because he is an evil man, peas in a pod. What we saw was not just for the trial, “Racists Of A Feather Flock Together”.

      • YQ says:

        I think that Trayvon was trying to get away and GZ was trying to hold him in place while on his back.

      • ay2z says:

        Prosecution never said the killer went to visit Kokopelli’s owner the very next morning! Never heard that before.

        So he went to his gym, and to his dr for a note to go to work, what else did he do that day to lay his defense foundation story? He was a busy man, didn’t have to work that day, put Serino off for the walk thru until after 5 pm.

        Listen to what Pollack says about talking to the killer… the next morning and in person.

        • MDH says:

          So now Pollock admits that is was one of his trainers who called GZ a big softie?


          I would call into question the veracity of what Pollock is implying.

          The reason body fat percentage (cut vs. soft) is a factor in MMA is due to anaerobic endurance i.e. it is a secondary consideration with respect to strength and skill.

          George Foreman, in his second go at boxing, could have been described as soft.

          And GZ did do a strength conditioning program.

          They are just promoting the “all black males” are inherently strong and athletic myth.

          That’s why I brought up the demographics. That myth takes hold in gyms that never really see or deal with “those people”.

          Personally, I bet Trayvon would have struggled with two 45s on the bar in a bench press. The shirtless pictures of the lean Trayvon that are supposed to make him a thug reveal to me a kid who has not done any regular weight training.

          Anecdotal on my part, but I will take my anecdotal over Pollock’s.

        • Drew says:

          I wonder how he did all of this the day after narrowly escaping death.

          I think the dudes from Jack-Ass should get together with that Supersize Me guy and stage a “head-bashing” near-death experience. I wonder what would REALLY happen to someone who was being beaten to death, what they would look like, how they would feel the next day.

          Or if they could pin someone, aim, and shoot a gun while being beaten to death.

          Sham trial. Prosecution should have spent sooooooo much time debunking all the horseshit about self defense. It is obvious to any sentient human who’s not an overt racist (or a lazy, covert, colorblindness peddler).

      • bettykath says:

        Now just how did fogen’s jacket ride up? Looks to me like it would be pulled down by that move.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath. We know GZ’s jacket did not raise. Had it raised, there would have been debris on his shirt and the crouch of his pants would have been at his navel.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Wouldn’t he have to shrimp the other direction? Otherwise, he’d go straight across the concrete.

        • Xena says:


          Wouldn’t he have to shrimp the other direction? Otherwise, he’d go straight across the concrete.

          That’s probably what he did and with Trayvon falling on him, and then trying to push himself up, GZ’s face was pushed on the concrete giving him those little scratches. That doesn’t mean that Trayvon was straddle GZ but simply trying to push himself up and away as GZ was holding him when they went to the ground.

  37. Xena says:

    Professor. You have mail.

  38. colin black says:

    pat deadder says:

    July 30, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    God Colin you are amazing.


    pat deadder says:

    July 30, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    Colin I like that you have the courage to say what you think.

    @No Im not last couple of Freds Threads Ive noticed some hype re mineinself I don’t know how to respond as its unwarranted .

    Thanks and all that good stuff but compared to some exceptional creative an intelligent people whom blog hear Im mediaore at best.

    Writing is not realy my forte Im an Ideas type an a clown.

    By reading here and there I am able to learn from everyone as you all are amazeing.

    Be it The insightfull brain of Malisha the Prof an Crane the feet on the grounded peole like Aussie .

    The excitable type like Ceilo Xena theres just to many to name Marsha Mountain Man Pat.

    Its all off you whom deserve credit.

    Theres no jufgemen no spelling police grammar police or thought control .

    The non judgemental attitude of this Blog makes it easy for all of us to express what we feel without fear of repercussion.
    No point lieing about events on a forum for idea exchange.

    Its not as if we have gone out an stalked an murdered a Child for no reason other that we could .

    Those are the types that have to lie.

    An those of a like mid set.

    So once agan don’t praise moi praise your selfs .

    Your mine muses.

  39. dianetrotter says:

    Last night I watched a crime show that referenced the Trayvon Martin murder. Gil Garcetti was an advisor for the production. I don’t think Hollywood will let Zimmerman forget that he is a murderer and not a hero.

    • pat deadder says:

      I just want to cry for Trayvon again after listening to that sermon.I hope you all can get SYG reversed but I guess it’s too early in the morning for me and I feel hopeless.This too shall pass. I don’t understand a system where people have to protest and protest and protest again and again and again for such a simple thing that we others take for granted.It’s strange to me that legisators can get unconstitutional laws passed but suddenly have no power to reverse them.I admire everyone who has the intestinal fortitude to keep fighting.

    • ay2z says:

      What a good point, and I htink you are right. Much more hollywood attractive, if it’s the same reason the story drew so much attention in the first place, and it was not about a ‘good guy’ neighborhood watch person.

      Hollywood will not be sympathetic.

  40. KateW says:

    YES PROFESSOR!!! YES!! This is what I was asking you in some earlier post if this law is legal being that there are statistics that show this SYG law is prejudicial and slanted towards one race as opposed to another. Basically the law is not equal! The example I gave was Marissa Alexander’s claim of SYG and other individual of a different race were given leniency or lighter sentences under the same law. I can’t say Trayvon Martin’s case would fall under that category because he really didn’t claim SYG although some of the jurors based their decisions on SYG.

    So I had asked if a law is proven to be prejudicial by statistics and research, then can a person file a lawsuit against the state or seek protection under some kind of Federal laws that abide by the constitution in abolishing this particular law. I don’t know if it can be done but I was curious about it. What recourse does a person have against laws that are racially biased.

    • The courts distinguish between laws that are unconstitutional on their face and laws that are unconstitutional as applied.

      The use of statistical studies to establish that a law discriminates against a particular racial group is a method used to challenge the constitutionality of a statute on the as-applied basis.

      The direct way to challenge the constitutionality of a particular statute on the as-applied basis would be to file a legal cause of action in a United States District Court seeking (1) a declaratory judgment that the law is unconstitutional as applied because it is used to discriminate against a racial minority without any rational basis as proven by the statistical study, and (2) a permanent injunction prohibiting the use of that law in the future.

      The court will apply the strict scrutiny test, since the claim alleges racial discrimination.

      Here’s Wiki:

      To pass strict scrutiny, the law or policy must satisfy three tests:

      It must be justified by a compelling governmental interest. While the Courts have never brightly defined how to determine if an interest is compelling, the concept generally refers to something necessary or crucial, as opposed to something merely preferred. Examples include national security, preserving the lives of multiple individuals, and not violating explicit constitutional protections.

      The law or policy must be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal or interest. If the government action encompasses too much (overbroad) or fails to address essential aspects of the compelling interest, then the rule is not considered narrowly tailored.

      The law or policy must be the least restrictive means for achieving that interest, that is, there cannot be a less restrictive way to effectively achieve the compelling government interest. The test will be met even if there is another method that is equally the least restrictive. Some legal scholars consider this “least restrictive means” requirement part of being narrowly tailored, though the Court generally evaluates it separately.

      For more information on the legal analysis of an Equal Protection Clause claim, check out Professor Ray’s Equal Protection flowchart and powerpoint slide presentation.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Aren’t the Stand Your Ground Laws discriminatory based upon age because in Trayvon’s case he was not allowed to meet deadly force with deadly force because he was restricted from legally possessing a gun and that his fists were his only weapons that night, and there’s no way for fists are a match for guns?

        Since the NRA was the main force behind passing SYG isn’t it implicit that SGY is skewed toward gun owners and since guns are lethal weapons and if a gun nut feels threatened rather than mitigate it by wounding someone since it’s better to kill someone so that they won’t be able to give their version of events?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          roderick — i agree with this line of thought completely. in florida, one cannot legally purchase a firearm until the age of 21. this leaves the youth and young adults at a severe disadvantage. other non SYG states (even those with ‘no duty to retreat’) generally require that force be met with like force. that is, one cannot bring a gun to a fist fight, but according to florida law and hence jury instructions, a person has no duty to retreat and can ‘meet force with force, including deadly force’. these SYG laws are deeply flawed and the age factor is no small part.

        • I believe a stronger case for discrimination can be made on the basis of race instead of age.

          Also, with race you benefit from a strict scrutiny analysis rather than the lame rational-basis analysis.

  41. J4TMinATL says:

    I’m going to repost my opinions: Let me reiterate this point.

    The first action should be ERPA. Focusing on repealing SYG laws is very important. I find it imperative to finally get ERPA passed first and then begin repealing SYG laws.

    Obama needs to pass ERPA, now. It needs to go before the House and get passed. Change starts with ERPA. And Obama needs to keep his promise on the issue.

  42. KateW says:

    Speaking of laws…have you all heard the news? The Anti-protest law just passed was just signed by Obama!! I said a few months back that this surveillance issue had nothing to do with terrorist. The wire tapping has a lot to do with what the govt is seeing overseas and that is many uprising against their govts. They fear the same will happen here. We are the “terrorist” they are concerned about, not outside terrorism. This bill is just more proof they are trying to disarm the Constitution and render the American people public enemy #1.

  43. renosweeney says:

    My basic question is this. >> is it objectively reasonable to presume an intruder is a deadly threat?

    Does the mere presence of an intruder in your home mean you have the right to kill them without any sort of “warning” or attempt to avoid the kill?

    I understand that likely, a home intrusion is some sort of threat in and of itself, but does it rise to the level of a deadly threat or threat of great bodily harm, one that justifies a kill?

    • fauxmccoy says:


      any state with some semblance of the ‘castle doctrine’ (and that is most of the US as well as common law throughout the world) would consider self defense i(up to and including deadly force) n the case of a home invasion to be valid. by the very nature of the felony of home invasion, the resident is reasonably in fear of potential loss of life, property, harm to other residents, etc.

      i, for one, fail to see the need to wait to see what such an intruder would do next, after having broken into my home and the law supports this thinking.

      • diary73 says:

        What has always concerned me is how easy it would be to invite someone over whom you want to kill, and then use self defense to get away with it.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @diary — that would of course be against the law and revealed in any decent investigation. signs of forced entry with physical evidence tying it to the intruder is a must.

          for instance, when i was the victim of the attempted break in, i had to wait and wait patiently for either the sheriff to show up or the lock to break. it was an agonizing 8 minutes. the 911 operator kept reminding me to not open the door and i appreciated it and listened because it was sound advice (compare that to zimmerman). for me to have opened the door would have legally construed an ‘invitation’. so wait, i did.

        • cielo62 says:

          Diary- dont think its not already being done. But with one witness dead, who is left to question?


    • Basically, the answer is, “Yes.”

  44. Tzar says:

    The trouble with guns is that they work faster than the speed of human remorse, of human reconsideration, faster than the natural retreat of feverish tempers.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Sad and profound

      • ay2z says:

        sad that someone like GZ has no remorse, and sadder yet, he doesn’t even know enough to fake it

      • Tzar says:

        to finish the thought
        -this is why the burden of self-defense must be framed by the depth of prudence displayed by the would-be self-defender.

        To me I needed to know very little about the fight or Trayvon’s killer’s injuries to deem him responsible and guilty for Trayvon’s death due to the FACT that, under no requirement of law or morality and against rules of common sense, prudence and neighborhood watch, he chose to place his angry self and a gun in the proximity of an adrenalized teenager who was acting in prudence and running away. If we as a society say that this kind of behavior is insignificant when it comes to invoking self-defense then I don’t see how we can be shocked when more people are killed in similar circumstances as that circumstance ALONE increases the likelihood of someone being hurt or killed.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          tzar — i agree with you completely regarding self defense laws.

          i make no secret here that i am a gun owner, believe in the 2nd amendment and every human being’s right to defend themselves.

          it is because of these firmly held beliefs that i find zimmerman’s actions to be reprehensible and the society that would allow such inherently evil.

          i spent much of yesterday comparing the self defense laws of my own state (california) to that of florida and am now realizing how naive i was to expect justice. the more i learn, the more disgusted i become.

    • ay2z says:

      especially ones with no second-thoughts ‘safety’, and the hollow tip pointed rounds with no reason other than to kill.

    • Malisha says:

      Wow, Tzar, that’s it exactly.

      I would add that a gun falsifies a man. It makes a weak man feel strong.

      • Tzar says:

        Unfortunately, as a requisite condition of his true weakness that weak man never realized the infirmity and weakness of his mind, and dare I say heart, which no gun can cure.

  45. ay2z says:

    I just listened to my first Baptist sermon, and am not sharing with any message of my own to hold this up and say this is what anyone should follow, I can’t do that when I do not stand in the shoes of a black person in America.

    I’m sharing because this is an incredible sermon and because the philosophy is amazing. I can’t relate more than a droplet, to what the congregation of presumably mostly African Americans is feeling on the day of and days following this verdict. I don’t pretend to.

    But to whatever different degrees, we here, who have virtually stood by Trayvon, his memory, his parents Sybrina and Tracy, felt stunned at the verdict, and want to know there is hope, that this is not the end, there is more to come.

    I hope this is ok for me to share.

  46. Jeanette says:

    Thank you for replying, Professor. Your explanation is both obvious and correct.

    Perhaps I’m subconciously going too meta with the general minor-centered focus because the sinking, hopeless feeling that our government institutions no longer have the raw ability and resolve to provide racial minorities with individual constitutional protections going forward is too much to handle.

    Good evening to you.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      The government has never responded to the needs of racial minorities UNTIL forced to by the insistence of those minorities who empower themselves and are steadfast in their demands for justice and equality.

      In photos of the 100 city rallies I saw many Blacks symbolically empowering themselves by raising the clenched fist showing that they had grabbed that empowerment and placed it in their hearts.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        In the sixties such empowered people pressed for

        the elimination of white oppression, increased economic and political power for blacks, better education and social status for blacks, and the elimination of racial discrimination.

  47. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — you brought up the self defense of western states where i reside. in california, we do not have to retreat before opting to defend ourselves and i will freely say that i am OK with that. having been a victim of attempted burglary in the wee hours of the morning, while pregnant and tending to my toddler, i had no problem holding a loaded and cocked .38 revolver on the person attempting to break down my door, while on speaker phone to 911.

    although we need not retreat in california, there are significant differences between our self defense laws and SYG (not the least of it being the various stages during which prejudiced officials, be it police, prosecutor or judge, could grant criminal and civil immunity to a shooter based on their claim of self defense). also, were zimmerman to have committed his crime in california, he would have been required to prove that he acted reasonably in self defense, rather than the prosecutor disproving such.

    below, i will post CA self defense laws as explained in a law blog, also note the significant differences in jury instructions.

    What are the Self-Defense Laws in California?

    There are two standard California Jury Instructions that further help to define self-defense:

    “It is lawful for a person who is being assaulted to defend himself from attack if, as a reasonable person, he has grounds to believe that bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon him. In doing so, that person may use all force and means which he believes to be reasonably necessary and which would appear to a reasonable person, in the same or similar circumstances, to be necessary to prevent the injury which appears to be imminent.” (California Jury Instructions–Criminal (CALJIC) 5.30.)

    “An assault with the fists does not justify the person being assaulted in using a deadly weapon in self-defense unless that person believes and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe that the assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury upon him.” (CALJIC 5.31.)

    Other instructions specify that the assaulted person need not retreat and the appearance of danger is sufficient. Also, self-defense is not available after the danger ceases or the adversary is disabled. It is also not considered self-defense when an aggressor or participant in mutual combat has not tried to stop fighting.

    A lot depends upon what the jury thinks is “reasonable.” This involves ONLY bodily self-defense, and not defense of property.

    and the following

    What are differences between Florida and California Self-Defense Laws?

    There are two major differences between the Florida and California law. First, in California, a person claiming self-defense must use “reasonable force,” while Florida law says a person can “meet force with force, including lethal force.”

    In Florida, that means if someone first punches you with their fist, you could respond by shooting them with deadly force.

    The second major difference is that in Florida, when self-defense is invoked, there is a presumption the killing is reasonable. The burden is put on prosecutors to show that it is not.

    i am old enough to remember california being an open carry state as well as traveling to various western states to visit family where this is the norm. i realize that my comfort level with this varies with many posters here. i will simply fall back on my own preference of knowing who is carrying and act accordingly than to suspect that everyone around me could conceivably carrying a concealed weapon.

    In California the burden is on the attorneys representing the person claiming self-defense to show the killing was reasonable.

  48. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  49. Jeanette says:

    Professor, I am very much in agreement with you with respect to the connection between SYG, race and the equal protection clause of the 14th; however, I would love to know your thoughts, specifically, regarding SYG, age and any potential equal protection considerations.

    I have never been able to see how SYG-type laws can result in anything other than a negative, disperate impact upon minors of all races, due to their inability, by law, to meet force with equal force when their adult aggressors are armed with firearms sanctioned by the State and they (minors) are legally precluded from protection under those laws in cases where guns are involved.

    • To put it bluntly, a state license (SYG) to kill black kids violates the Equal Protection Clause because it discriminates against black kids with no rational purpose.

      Such a license violates the Due Process Clause because it’s a state license to kill without due process of law.

      • Endless Summer says:

        Professor, could you answer a question for me? I looked up Florida’s Wrongful Death Act and it states that a suit must be filed within 2 years. I could not find any reference as to where a suit may be filed. If the Martin/Fulton family decides to file a civil suit, can they file in Miami, where they stand a better chance of seating a diverse jury?

        • Here’s your answer.

          47.011 Where actions may be begun.–Actions shall be brought only in the county where the defendant resides, where the cause of action accrued, or where the property in litigation is located. This section shall not apply to actions against nonresidents.

          That would be Seminole County.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Professor, If I am not mistaken, Trayvon was still a resident of Miami (Dade County) and was only staying with his father for a short period of time… I believe it was said by Mr. Crump early this year that they would probably file in Dade County. I don’t think that either he nor his father had been living in Seminole County long enough to become a resident…

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ IIRC, it states the Defendant’s county.


          • crazy1946 says:

            Ok, after re-reading your comment again, I guess that I am batting a 1000, you said the defendant, my brain saw plaintiff….
            I think that I need a hobby, perhaps watching grass grow, or counting pebbles in a creek, or stars in the sky. something that does not require eye brain coordination! However I am sure that Mr. Crump did say that they would probably file in Miami… Perhaps he was talking about against someone else…..

          • Cercando Luce says:

            And there are fewer than six months remaining, to file and prepare a case.

  50. tharealkeisha says:

    My name is Keisha and I approve this message!

  51. ay2z says:

    Grape Jelly, another find, Clarence ‘Gatermouth’ Brown at Montreux Jazz, 2004

  52. ay2z says:

    Crane, a new find.

  53. lsimon3321 says:

    Are you going to send this installment to the Justice Department? T
    This is a great analysis.

  54. ay2z says:

    Sometimes we just need to feel some blues to find a smile.


  55. dianetrotter says:

    Professor I hope you don’t mind me copying your last two paragraphs, stating the source and giving a link.

  56. Malisha says:

    Just occurred to me (yes, another “just occurred” just occurred!):

    We never did hear Sybrina Fulton and/or Tracy Martin — or even Crump or Jackson or Parks — make the speech thanking Corey, BDLR and the crew, did we?

    THEY KNEW before we knew that the prosecution was going to throw the case.

    THEY KNEW FIRST. For whatever reason, they could not bring it up and still can’t. But I trust Crump to know how to deal with it.

    Meanwhile, other and more, but mostly other.
    August 24, march on Washington. My sign says “NO MORE COVER-UP”

    • jm says:

      “THEY KNEW before we knew that the prosecution was going to throw the case.”

      I thought it was Extremely Strange that Trayvon’s parents were not there for the verdict. Beyond strange.

    • Jasmine says:

      I was wondering why they didn’t show for the verdict. They had to have known beforehand what the outcome would be.
      I don’t think that I have any faith in the DOJ. I mean look at all of the unlawful killings done by cops, Aiyana Jones 7 years old, that older veteran who was in his home and had accidentally pushed his emergency alert button, the young man with Down’s syndrome who wouldn’t leave the theater…too many to count and they haven’t stepped in yet. Oh and Chavis Carter.

    • type1juve says:

      That explains why they were not there for the verdict. This case has been such a sham that it’s sickening.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I surely do hope Ben Crump knows how to deal with it.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      They thanked the State in one of their interviews.

  57. crazy1946 says:

    The biggest problem with the way the SYG law is being applied by the various locals is that only the white population has any ground to stand on….. Their application of the law assumes that black men are trespassers upon the white mans ground…. I wonder how these good Christian gun owners think they will make it into the Kingdom of Their God, are they going to be surprised to learn that the people of the area where Jesus originated had pretty dark skin, wonder if they will attempt to stand their ground then????

    • bettykath says:

      Just wait til they find out that God is Black woman. An angry Black woman.

      • cielo62 says:

        Bettykath- LOL!


      • Malisha says:

        HA HA HA Bettykath!

        In my ten-minute play “Do you have murder?” God was played by Braodway actress Tonya Pinkins (in my mind’s eye) who sang first, three spirituals, then a rant (like “Lot’s Wife”) and then screamed, after which there was a shot and the curtain came down. And she does “angry Black woman” very well. Check it out.

  58. Xena says:

    In other words, would a reasonable person (i.e., the objective prong of the test) in their situation, knowing what they know about the aggressor (i.e., the subjective prong of the test) believe the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent death or grievous bodily harm?

    So, when a person trains in self-defense 3 days a week for over a year, but the “professional” personal trainer says that person is “soft” while still taking their money, it conveys that the person has “reasonable” belief of imminent death or great bodily harm BECAUSE his weakness in personality prevents him from defending himself.

    A person so “soft” that professional training in self-defense doesn’t help them, should not be carrying a gun.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Xena, A little off topic, but did you ever wonder how, because he did not have money to pay his bills or even his rent, the Fogdoit managed to pay for his MMA training? Strange that a person would pay for that kind of training and not receive any benefit from it in improved manly status…. Don’t think Adam Pollock defined his definition of soft, did he? Isn’t it strange that the Fogdoit sat there with that dumb look on his face as he was described as a little pussy man that any little girl could whip…. That is unless he has his penis extension strapped on….. Maybe we should buy an ad on the local television station showing the Fogdoit as a little sissy creature……

      • Xena says:

        @crazy1946. Pollock was arrested for threatening and assaulting a woman who conned him out of money. Shall we believe that Pollock makes that much money from gym membership? I don’t want to suggest anything not supported or at least suggested with proof, but that gym, GZ’s Adderall and not making any progress other than in weight loss, may be connected.

        • crazy1946 says:

          I have found several things that suggest that the Fogdoit was actually around Adam Pollock for a much longer period than has been suggested so your thoughts might prove to be accurate…. of course there seems to be a connection between both of them and Joshua Parrish and a ghostly connection to David Chico…. Juror B29’s newly found attorney, who surprisingly is a friend of Don West…. Strange isn’t it that all these people are so closely interconnected……

          • Xena says:

            @crazy1946. I’m a bit lost. Are you talking about the 23 yr old Joshua Parrish who died in July last year?

            As far as connections, that doesn’t surprise me in a small county. I reside in a county like that and name dropping might have been influential in that jury room, especially to a juror who has only resided in Florida for 4 months. When the impression is given that power and authority is in the hands of a few who have influence over others, it can be intimidating.

          • crazy1946 says:

            “PARRISH, JOSHUA KENYON was born on 1 October 1977 and he is (or was) living at 200 MAITLAND AVE UNIT 92, ALTAMONTE SPRINGS, in Seminole County, Florida 32701”

            Linked to Ron Paul campaign in Seminole County in the 2008 Presidential campaign…. I think he is in Virginia now. Linked to David M. Chico by way of Jeff Ippoliti (big money) formerly of NY…..

          • Xena says:

            @crazy1946. I’ll just have to follow — no, go in the same direction, as you observe and report. 🙂

      • Drew says:

        People in Florida should be challenging him to fight on a daily basis.

        Oh wait.

        • Xena says:

          LOL@Drew. A good question is, why at the age of 27-28, and after working as a bouncer, would GZ want to learn self-defense? And, why would he want to learn physical self-defense when he carried a gun for self-defense, was doing so before joining the gym, and also before he started NW?

      • cielo62 says:

        crazy~ remember that gz was NOT paying his rent EVEN THOUGH papa Zim sent him rent money? I think this is where it went, and NOT towards rent at all.


      • pat deadder says:

        crazy1946 Did you ever wonder how fogen managed to pay for his mma training.Yes I have wondered and why was he taking mma.I believe fogen planned a murder of a back person as soon as the opportunity arose. Maybe I’m going crazy.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Did you also wonder who was behind the “crime wave” in his gated community? How does one live in the style he lived with the income he had? Think about it, he was chronically un or under employed, took expensive medications, went to the dr. office (something that most poor people can’t do), ate well, paid for MMA training, bought gas for two cars along with car payments on said cars, paid for college expenses, and etc, strange that a person could do that with no money! Actually it verycurious isn’t it? Hmmm, maybe a good investigation of the crimes in the area would take him off the street, if only for a little while…..

        • No, you aren’t going crazy. I believe it was a premeditated murder.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Agreed, and Trayvon was just the “lucky victim” of a wanna be killer…..

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      This picture seems appropriate to the discussion here:

  59. acemayo says:

    Barbara Calabrese Although there ARE government Housing programs such as Section 8 and the USDA Rural Housing programs, government money is NOT given to the low income people who live in them. The money is paid to the building owner or management company hired by the owner. Furthermore although MANY people white and black young and old may Financially Qualify for such housing assistance programs only a relatively small percentage of those people are lucky enough (typically after months or years on waiting lists) to have their names go to the top of the list and be allowed to move into the housing. Similarly with Medicaid monies are paid directly to either Doctors or Pharmacies not to the person who financially qualified.

  60. fauxmccoy says:

    thanks, fred. i remain convinced that this is where the real battle shall be. i have no illusions that the DoJ will prosecute the violation of trayvon martin’s civil rights. my expectation is that zimmerman will remain a free man until he commits another offense. but this, the application of the SYG laws in a racist manner is easily demonstrated through crime statistics which is not subjective and i believe this to be the only real relief available.

    • Yes, I agree.

      A statistical analysis is necessary.

      Unfortunately, innocent people have to die to flesh out the numbers.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @fred who states

        Unfortunately, innocent people have to die to flesh out the numbers.

        yes, this is not lost on me, but it has always been the case on the eve of great social change, be it the civil war or the civil rights act. it is grossly unjust, of course, and immensely painful, but ultimately it is the loss of innocent life which becomes eye opening to relatively inactive bystanders. it is our job to open the eyes of those who would sit by and do nothing.

        i think we do need more turnover in the left direction on the supreme court as well as holding on to the executive branch before this change is realized.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i will take a look at the article, KA. i know the data exists, i have seen it in other forms and media. turnover on the supreme court is key in order to prevail.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Yes indeedy. My mantra through the last two elections has been,
            Think of the SCOTUS, for God’s Sake!

      • Woow! says:

        Professor have those bigots ever thought what would happen if blacks started to shoot back when they saw a creepy white man who that they thought was going to do them harm?

        If they are scared now just at the thought of the scary black man just think how dangerous these people would be if that black boogey man became a reality.

        SYG is a legal license to kill and the NRA knew what they were doing when they passed these laws.

        • bettykath says:

          I think the stats show that white who claim SYG get it but Blacks who claim SYG go to prison.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Because of the way the laws are written and enforced, fewer AA’s are legally allowed to own or carry guns. A young white man caught with a small amount of recreational drugs is given a slap on the hand and no felony charge, yet place the same type and amount of drugs in the hands of a young black person and they not only receive a felony charge, they are sent to prison. The court system is simply another way to restrict the ability of black people to function on an equal footing with the “master race” in this nation. They have taken the physical chains from the arms and legs of a large group of our citizens and replaced them with not only “financial chains” but “judicial chains” as well! Why do we as a nation continue to allow this racial bias to exist? As more and more “poor white trash” members of this society begin to feel the chains being put upon their arms perhaps then the problem will truly be addressed and a start toward equality will begin….. I have said many times, racism starts in the home, is taught in the school system, and enforced in the courts. To think that racism could be simply made to go away by passing a law forbidding it is foolish, we have to attack it at the source and that is the only way this problem will be resolved, any other way is like applying Knuckle band aids to a broken nose, might look good but only to those who have no vision….
          The NRA (National Racist Agenda) group needs to be disbanded and purged from our “common” society! This is the first step to setting all people on equal footing in this nation….

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @crazy — just to add to all the valid points you made above

            racial disparity of the judicial system leads to further disparity and a life of bondage.

            the convicted felon once released, having ‘paid his debt to society’, finds himself in a situation where finding legitimate work is difficult, if not impossible. the convicted felon should he/she find work, must pay taxes but in most states is prohibited from voting or serving on juries, thus denying them the most basic access to a democracy and ensuring a lack of representation. the convicted felon is not able to legally purchase a fire arm — while on it’s face, this may be a good thing, in a state such as florida, it puts the felon at a distinct disadvantage when a legitimate need to defend themselves or family arises.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Fauxmccoy, “Paid debt to society” can not happen due to no true price is established! Most people do not realize that a white man who receives a felony conviction, loses his rights to own and carry a gun much like a black man does, what they do not realize is the white man who “needs” (wants?) a gun simply goes to the classified ad’s in the local paper or to the next gun show and buys one at a pretty cheap price! If the black man “needs” a gun for any reason, can he avail himself of the same methods? No, the seller will probably call the police before he could get out of his car and report a thug coming to rob him… Think about it (if your white and a male) when is the last time you saw a black man at a gun show, well except for the janitor that was cleaning up the trash you threw on the floor? Perhaps what I have said is trivial to many, but if you take it in context to all the other rights that the “average” black American citizen loses when participating in the judicial process in this nation it adds up to a huge mountain to climb just to be considered not only a citizen, but a human as well…..

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i cannot argue with anything you have said.

            i will go on record to say that i am vehemently opposed to stripping felons who have served their time from the most basic right of voting. if you think about it, it one of the major reasons that the 13 colonies rebelled against great britain — taxation without representation. how is it that such a violation of a citizen’s rights is condoned by our society now?

          • crazy1946 says:

            fauxmccoy, One of the problems that seems to be ignored by most folks is that no “law” passed will solve this problem. Remember back in the mid 60’s when forced integration took place in Little Rock, Ar.? Did it actually solve the problem of inequality of the races? Or did it in fact only cause it to go underground? The more affluent there did not participate in desegregation, they simply removed their children for the public school system, or moved to the rural areas to avoid being forced to endure the (in their eyes) the hardship of having to accept black people as being equal…. Many of us, myself included, actually thought, at the time, we had made great progress in making this nation more tolerant of all races. I like many others thought the problem was solved, and simply forgot about it and went about my merry way. Fast forward to the year 2007 and upon hearing instructions from my “former” political party of choice, to vote in the primary in my state for a democrat by the name of Obama, to keep Hillary off the ticket, my eyes were opened to the depth of the problem that still existed. The flood gate to racist thinking in public had been breeched, and the racial prejudice poured out in a great flood of such a magnitude that many of us could never have imagined… I still can not understand how something as simple as skin color can/should determine a mans worth to society. There will be no quick fix to this problem, and I am not sure that the nation can or will survive any true fix. No government has ever successfully legislated moral’s for their citizens and remained solvent….
            Just a few rambling thought from an old man who grows more disgusted with our lack of care for every member of our society as time passes…. Perhaps I am well on my way toward becoming a misanthropist…..

          • Xena says:


            A young white man caught with a small amount of recreational drugs is given a slap on the hand and no felony charge, yet place the same type and amount of drugs in the hands of a young black person and they not only receive a felony charge, they are sent to prison.

            And a Black man who assaulted a cop for arresting his friend for underage drinking, would not have had the charge reduced to a misdemeanor. He would also have been charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. GZ essentially “got off.”

            In my neck of the woods, Black men are arrested for small amounts of drugs with numerous counts including trafficking. The bail is set so high that they cannot get out on bail. Through various hearings, charges are dismissed — at times, all charges, or the sentence is for time served. So, after a year in jail, those men are free to walk out of jail having lost their job, their car, their apartment or their house that has gone into foreclosure while they were in jail.

  61. acemayo says:

    The Indians was here before we came over and found many reasons to take their land.
    Black slavery was even justify by the church cause god has curse us
    Tell me where on earth and its just white folks and zero crime
    Tell me what race on earth if it is just one race they had zero crime
    One of the main problems we have is our hate for someone who done nothing to anyone

    Except for the Society of Friends, all religious groups in America supported slavery. In the South black people were not usually allowed to attend church services. Those churches that did accept them would segregate them from white worshipers.
    One of the main reasons why masters did not want their slaves to become Christians involved the Bible. They feared that slaves might interpret the teachings of Jesus Christ as being in favour of equality. This was one of the main reasons why most plantation owners did what they could to stop their slaves from learning to read.

    • Xena says:

      In Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, for we are one.

      Show me a church that discriminates and I’ll show you a church that is not “in Christ.”

      • crazy1946 says:

        Xena, A man with no arms would not run out of fingers to count the actual church’s that are “in Christ”! It is a race to see which is the most rare commodity, it would not be gold, it would be a choice between “common sense” and “Christians”! I remember when I was but a young child, my ancient grand father told the a simple way to tell if a man was a Christian, if a man feels the need to continually tell you that he is a Christian, he surely is not one………

        • Xena says:

          @crazy1946. I hear ya! A tree is known by its fruit.

        • cielo62 says:

          Crazy- SO TRUE! I see a car covered in Christ bumper stickers and I wonder WHO is the driver trying to convince? I’ve been told what a “good Christian” I am, where I’m not a Christian at all…


          • crazy1946 says:

            And I have been told I am a mother so many times yet have never received a card on mothers day! Figures doesn’t it!

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ LOL! I don’t think they sell the type of mother cards they mean…


  62. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I completely agree with you, Professor.

    You have brilliantly made your point that SYG does indeed violate the 14th Amendment.

    SYG allows racists free reign to act out their racism against Blacks to a deadly degree!

  63. Two sides to a story says:

    Good post, Professor. I’ve tweeted and FB’d.

    I think it’s necessary and even mandatory to “dial it up” on this issue and get very noisy about it.

    Since the election of Obama we’re seeing the poison of bigotry toward minorities that lay somewhat dormant under the surface of our society come gushing up like a tidal wave.

    How SYG laws are handled in America’s courtrooms as manifested in Fogen’s verdict is appalling. Post-racial America indeed.

    Let’s wipe the smirks off their faces.

  64. smokeegyrl says:

    sorry about this but I finally had to put this out there.. this is the first video that shows how I felt the way Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon. How it was done standing up… Man this is how I seen it in a dream.. I had… Oh Mannnnnnnnnnnn I cried when I seen this… *sigh* *sobbing* mannnn..

    • Drew says:

      Yeah, I know it’s pointless to speculate but all these people (draft dodger Nuge, well-documented serial liars Hannity and Coulter, race-baiters O’Reilly and Limbaugh, drug abusers Nuge and Limbaugh who think marijuana deserves the death penalty) who are so proud of Zimm’s heroic act and crow about his acquittal and yearn for the return of his precious gun – would they be this fired up in unanimous support of TM had he somehow dodged the bullet and *actually* beaten GZ down, bashing his head 20 times into the pavement (as opposed to zero)?

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • type1juve says:

      Wow! Thank you for posting this. I too believe Fogen shot Trayvon while standing. All Trayvon did was try to get away from this monster. I believe Jeremy saw it too. <<<<>>>>

    • Xena says:

      @smokeegyrl. Powerful. This is what bigoted racists do not understand. If not but for the fact that GZ got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon, and did follow him, the two would not have come into physical contact. GZ appeared like a creepy azz pervert and Trayvon ran from him. It was the only thing that Juror B37 said she believed of Rachel Jeantel’s testimony. But, that jury now says there is no law to convict of murder because — because — because — Trayvon didn’t run AGAIN when confronted by GZ. It was bigotvoyant theory that set GZ free from prison bars.

    • nocamo33 says:

      Tears of anger and pain for every unjustified victim of violence. We don’t need a moment of silence for Trayvon. Quite the opposite. Many moments of vocalizing one’s take on the current state of affairs.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Jasiri X

      [this link does not work]

  65. Deborah Moore says:

    Here’s a link to another way some folks make over-generalizations about others.

  66. KA says:

    I could not agree more. I also believe “shoot first” laws are a violation of due process in the 14th amendment. I used that argument a while ago on a relates SYG discussion on a social media site. It is good to see I was actually “right” about it. It just logically makes sense.

    Have you sent this to the Justice Dept email? It seems to bare a better argument that some I have seen considering action in the Trayvon Martin murder (I will call it nothing but).

    • Relief under the 14th Amendment requires race-based discrimination by state officials under color of state law.

      SYG is a state law that is being used by state officials to encourage future discriminatory action against young black males by absolving people of guilt who kill young black males.

      In essence, SYG is unconstitutional because it is being used as a state license to kill young black males.

      • KA says:

        I agree, similar to proposition 8 and others. This state law acts in violation of the Constitutional rights for all citizens.

        We need to get a case to the Supreme Court.

        • KA says:

          Or the Justice Dept as they did in AZ on striking down the racial targeting that their immigration law promoted. I think charges were finally charged against that Sheriff a few months ago.

        • Unfortunately, the pro-corporation and anti human-rights majority of the SCOTUS (Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Kennedy) is not likely to regard our argument favorably.

      • Xena says:

        For anyone interested, I did a comparison between the Trevor Dooley case and the Zimmerman case. When I first wrote on the Dooley case, I desperately tried seeing the decision impartially and not based on race. With the verdict in GZ’s case, my eyes opened.

      • renosweeney says:

        The reasoning is not unlike the violations to voting rights. States laws are being utilized to specifically target people of color to prevent them from exercising their voting rights.

        The DOJ may need to petition the state and their laws in a similar way that are pledging to do with the voting laws.

      • lady2soothe says:

        Jonathan Lethem of The Fortress of Solitude asks:

        “What age is a black boy when he learns he’s scary?”

        Black males are being killed off at a younger age each year, 14 seems to be the current age, next year will it be 13? 12 the following year until progressively their murderer’s are standing behind the doctor in the delivery room?

        • Xena says:

          @lady2soothe. Bob Hurt, a Florida sovereign citizen, advocates the sterilization of all Blacks and the killing of all Black males before they commit crimes against White people. So yes — they will be standing outside delivery rooms and shooting in self-defense because the baby’s cries made them afraid for their life.

        • Xena says:

          @lady2soothe. I don’t want to promote Bob Hurt’s blog, so won’t post the link, but the following is an excerpt from it. This is the man who recently attacked me on another blog for an article I wrote about Juror B29 being played by sovereign citizens. Note: When sovereign citizens and/or White Supremacists use the word “stupid” or speak about low IQ, it is their word of Blacks. “Smart” is the word they use for Whites.

          Of course, that doesn’t have to happen, and it won’t if the actual smart people of America embrace Bob Hurt’s American Civilization Rehabilitation Plan.

          Here it is in a nutshell.

          1. Put fecund women back home where they belong by outlawing equal pay for them, and in fact mandating for them ½ the pay men get for the same job and highly taxing those who don’t have children or don’t stay home to care for them. That will make men more valuable to employers and they will start earning a wage the whole family can live on, like in the good old days.

          2. Sterilize all unmarried people, some temporarily and others permanently. Permanently sterilize the insane, violent felons, homosexuals, the hopelessly stupid (IQ below 90), and those who remain on welfare more than 2 years. That will bring procreation by sluts to a screeching halt and raise the average IQ to 115 within 75 years, with an associated dramatic increase in the average value of productivity.

          • lady2soothe says:


            Not to make light of either of out comments but I ran across this and thought you’d appreciate it.

            After an unruly mob ran amuck on the heels of the U.S. Open of Surfing in Huntington Beach, California on Sunday, Gawker columnist Cord Jefferson penned a piece taking oft-made generalizations about “violent black youth” and turning them around on white people.

            Jefferson expanded on that theme in a segment on “All In With Chris Hayes” Tuesday night, playing the part of a concerned citizen wondering how the white community is going to deal with the “problems of white culture.”

            “You probably haven’t heard much about the white riot in Huntington Beach,” Hayes began. “That’s because the story of white criminal culture is not a story the mainstream media will tell you. But once you scratch the surface, these stories are everywhere you look.”

            Hayes and Jefferson engaged in a back-and-forth that parodied several tired tropes that surface when talking heads discuss race on TV.

            “There are people that are going to tell you that … this has nothing to do with white people, it’s just a few bad apples. What do you say to that?” Hayes asked.

            “To that I say that if that’s your actual belief then you’re living with your head in the sand,” Jefferson said. “I used to live in New York City and would occassionally go to Hoboken, New Jersey’s St. Patrick’s Day parade, and there were so many young white men there vomiting in the streets, urinating in the streets, getting in fistfights in the streets. It was a sight to be seen.”

            “Do you have a personal problem with white people?” Hayes later asked. “Is this animus?”

            “No, I think any time that you tell the truth there’s going to be those people who come out and think you’re doing it for some insidious reason and say that you’re a racist,” Jefferson said. “I knew that some white people were going to call this playing the race card, but it isn’t playing the race card. My best friend is white.”

            Jefferson’s Gawker piece drew ire on social media, and not just from people who disagreed with his critique of how African Americans are portrayed in the news.

            Twitter user @TheWayOfTheId accused Jefferson of ripping off the idea for the piece from a series of biting one-liners she’d posted more than a week before. When others piled on and asked for an explanation, Gawker responded by saying that the claims were “bullshit.”

          • My best friend is white. My mother is white. My date to the prom was white. She’s really white. She used to ride horses. I have roots deep into the white culture.

            Hilarious. We need more of this.

  67. Deborah Moore says:

    Thanks, Fred.
    You’ve convinced me. Now, how to convince the States that still have this law on the books?
    Do you think laws can change with individuals pushing for something different, or will a large organization have to put pressure?
    I’m just not comfortable with the whole “reasonable” issue. If the folks who thought Georgie was just such a nice guy knew about his previous (dropped) charges, would they still think he’s such a Good Guy?
    Should I spend all of my time trying to create a Don’t Be Stupid pill?

    • I think a full mobilization of people and organizations committed to doing everything possible individually and collectively short of violence will be necessary to get rid of these statutes.

      Apathy will get us nowhere.

    • a2nite says:

      It happened in the sixties. It happened with women’s sufferage. It happened, unfortunately with prohibition.

      We can and will do it.

      The people who wrote these laws are going back to the bad old days of evil white supremacy where they can do whatever they want to us. Since we are so dangerous, there have to be laws to put us down like rabid dogs, but the killer gets a pat on the back and hero status.

      No wonder they are continuing their “GZ is free” victory tour. They have to appeal to the white supremacist he-man woman haters. He did wrong and he knows it. The question is can the bully Trayvon Martin’s family into not filing a civil suit because A SYG hearing can let him off with immunity.

      I never heard of such a stupid thing where you can kill somebody, not go to jail not get sued. Not be held responsible at all. It is more dangerous out there with these crazy people with guns concealed with a shoot to kill mentality.

  68. Drew says:

    Great post.

    I commend your honesty and blunt language when referring to the BLACKS R THUGZ N THUGZ R SCAREE mentality of sickos like Zimmerman, Dunn, O’Mara, B37, most of the TV news yappers, and of course many supposedly centrist, moderate, color-blind folks who just don’t know why we bring race up at all during such tragic times.

    • My father was a diplomat. Me, not so much.

      I have always had to rely on others to persuade me to tone it down.

      When the subject is racism, I choose to dial it up rather than tone it down.

      I truly believe racism is a form of delusional thinking that should be defined as a mental illness in the DSM.

      • Puck says:

        My research on the Obama-era ‘Hysterical Right’ shows that the mainstreaming of delusion (e.g. Tea Party canards such as death panels or FEMA concentration amps) has been accompanied by a mainstreaming of racist expression couched as political dissent. My analysis eventually led me to conclude that these are part of a larger collective psychosocial experience of delusion among racist conservatives. The wide-scale meltdown following Romney’s loss simply confirmed that this phenomenological state of mass delusion achieved critical mass right around the election (even the pundits were sucked into it, e.g. Noonan, Krauthammer, Rove), which directly led to the mass hysteria we saw. That all of this is happening on the Right is unsurprising given such fundamental delusions such as racism. So yes, you’re right.

        • What do you think? Should racism should be defined as an antisocial personality disorder?

          • sighhhhh says:

            I think it is improper and offensive to equate people with disabilities and people with bad morals. I don’t mean to insult you but we should not counter ignorance with different forms of ignorance.

          • cielo62 says:

            sighhhh~ and how is classifying racism, which is obviously an irrational social response, an “ignorant response” to the fact that racism DOES behave just like many other forms of psychopathology? I think it fits.


          • ay2z says:

            What a question!

            It certainly is a symptom of something, and there are various degrees in ‘known/observed/identifiable’ racism, that is, ordinary people don’t necessarily show their cards often or openly in public, and if they do, it’s with some care and in a safe environment. But the effect outside violence and criminal activity, is no less toxic to society, even to their own loved ones, when family members may not be so tolerant as the Prentisses and isolate the loved one into compliance, or lose trying.

            Racism is only one symptom of what humans seems capable of, and much is learned, or accepted. What seems to be the barrier, is whether these early learned or tolerated insensitive words or jokes that ‘seem’ so benign, are recognized and immediately ‘quit’, the line drawn when a person recognizes this is not right.

            Racism is not defined as present in someone, by lack of expression, just as it should not be considered absent in absence of evidence.

            We can all make mistakes, but there is something inside others, who ignore the obvious insensitivities and blatantly carry on hurtful, effective racist bullying. (well known example in this case– one racist fun-making of an individual, that is tolerated in professional comedic circles, is not ok used as a bullying and controlling, degradation, repeated over and over and over, for some personal satisfaction or gain amongst peers or co-workers)

            Biases exist in all forms, is this part of the human hard-wiring somehow? I don’t think so, not if someone decides to quit, decides to not play along, and naturally allows empanthy in. This may take work for some people, to fight peer pressure and ignorance.

            Maybe the sociopathy makes some of these decisions, honestly come by, impossible.

          • Malisha says:

            I can’t see it as a mental illness because mental illness, by definition, is something out of sync with the society in which the patient lives. It would be as logical to call it a mental illness to believe it appropriate to cheat people in order to get rich. It doesn’t show clear-headed thinking and it does reveal a disturbance in emotional content (somewhat psychopathic etc.) but it is perfectly NORMAL within our culture.

            Racism is a NORMAL way to be in our racist culture.

            Now if there were a REAL “DSM-V” in the sky that defined mental illness as “that disturbance of thought, feeling and conduct that produces hatred, aggression, exploitation and social atrocity,” it would be a biiiiiiiig book but I’d read it cover to cover. ❗

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ except that in our larger society, racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. We read in the news nearly every day about somebody losing a job or sponsorship or position over a FB post or picture that is deemed racist. Racists KNOW that what they are doing in unacceptable, which is why they try and hide it in nice language. That shows clears psychopathology.


          • Drew says:

            Personality disorders are not necessarily disabilities.

            Figgage is likely borderline / narcissistic personality disorder, but not “disabled” per se. Usually with disorders like that they’re not considered mental illnesses in the strict sense, either, as there’s not much treatment.

          • Puck says:

            Not racism itself, because that’s a sociocultural construction, but emerging neuropsychology is showing that the pathology of racist thought and behavior is likely hard-wired.

          • renosweeney says:

            Sighhhhh, You seriously need to review psychopathy. There are MANY “immoral” behaviors that are rooted in psychological disorders.

            It’s by no means an unreasonable possibility to ponder.

          • aussie says:

            There are already too many things in DSM which are behaviours that fall into the normal range. They can be, and are, used to classify normal people, especially children, as being “disordered”, with a view to medicating them or disadvantaging them in education.

            If racism ended up in DSM I’ll bet more blacks than whites would be diagnosed with it.

          • Mojo says:

            Racism is a learned behavior/attitude. Mental disorders aren’t

          • cielo62 says:

            Mojo- and some people reject racism and many don’t. The ones that don’t are mentally ill. Just like child abuse. Not everybody continues the cycle. The ones that do have psychopathology and ARE mentally ill.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • nocamo33 says:

      The only thing scarier than a young African American male is an educated one afforded every opportunity a white man has been given.

  69. sighhhhh says:

    Good afternoon 🙂

    I wanted to link this again here because I think Dr. West makes some great points:

    Cornel West: Obama’s Response to Trayvon Martin Case Belies Failure to Challenge “New Jim Crow”

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