Bullet trajectories and self-defense in the Michael Dunn case

Sunday, July 28, 2013

Good morning my friends:

An interesting issue occurred to me while I was reading through the discovery in the Dunn case. Which of the bullets struck Jordan Davis?

Crime scene investigators used wooden dowels as probes to line up the trajectories of the multiple shots into the Dodge Durango.

Medical examiners use metal rods to do the same thing with bullet wounds.

The use of wooden dowels or metal rods can provide useful information that assists in solving crimes as well as confirm or contradict a witness’s or a suspect’s description of a shooting.

According to the discovery in the Dunn case, he fired four shots into the Durango while seated in the driver’s seat of his vehicle and four more shots into the back end after the driver backed out and sped away.

Jordan Davis was seated in the back seat of the Durango on the passenger side, which was open. His position in the vehicle would have been next to the driver’s side of Dunn’s vehicle and a little behind Dunn. He was shot multiple times.


1. Did the bullets that struck him pass through the vehicle?

2. If so, did the shots come from the side or from behind?

3. What were the angles?

4. From what direction and what angle was the fatal shot(s) fired.

I do not believe Dunn has a viable claim of self-defense, but this is crazy racist Florida and, therefore, it is impossible to predict what a jury might conclude.

Nevertheless, Dunn’s claim of self-defense would be weaker, if he fired the fatal shot(s) at a fleeing vehicle.


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148 Responses to Bullet trajectories and self-defense in the Michael Dunn case

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Oh, I can hear it now: “The teens were armed with a gas station”. Jurors went to sleep during the trial but voted not guilty because Dunn seemed like a nice guy.

    Are we to believe that Florida trials are effective? If so, why?

  2. bettykath says:

    Finally read the reports on this new case. Jordan had at least three bullet wounds. One or two in the chest and at least two in the thigh/groin area. The only shots that went “through” were the one that went hit the driver’s visor (from the right rear window?) and those that hit the right rear passenger door. The other shots got hung up on metal parts of the car and didn’t enter the area of the passengers.

  3. MichelleO says:

    An Open Letter to
    Trayvon Martin’s Father

    Thursday, July 25, 2013

    By Greg Palast for Truthout

    Dear Mr. Martin,

    I have a 16-year old son. I cannot imagine losing him because some beast decided to play Lone Ranger.

    And so, with cautious humility, I make this suggestion, this plea.

    Sue the beast. You must.

    I understand you are reluctant to launch another painful trial of uncertain outcome and cost, monetary and emotional. And I know a money judgment won’t bring your son home.

    But imagine this: George Zimmerman gets a half-million-dollar book deal and $25,000 a pop to appear at gun shows – plus a fee to put his name on a 9mm semi-automatic. The ‘Zimmerman Protector.’

    There’s only one way to put this monster out of business: Justice can only come out of the barrel of a lawsuit.

    Only in a lawsuit can you force Zimmerman to the witness stand. That’s crucial. In the criminal case, Zimmerman’s daddy, a magistrate no less, could say it was poor George yelling for help on that desperate phone call.

    In a civil action, your son’s lawyer can say to Zimmerman, “Come on, George, let’s hear you scream for help. George, let’s hear you scream that this skinny kid is going to kill you. Come on, George, show us how Trayvon somehow grabbed your big fat head while he was taking the gun from your hand.”

    A federal indictment won’t do that: Zimmerman can’t be called as a witness in a criminal case. A federal trial won’t disgrace Zimmerman nor stop him from getting rich off your son’s corpse.

    A civil trial has none of that “reasonable doubt” crap that can get Zimmerman off the hook with some fantasy story about Trayvon as the dangerous aggressor. Zimmerman’s consigliere said it was Trayvon’s own fault he was murdered. The “decision [to get shot] was in Trayvon Martin’s hands more than my client’s.” Do you want that to be the last word about your son?

    Maybe you don’t want the money. OK, then: Set up a foundation and make Zimmerman turn over all that blood money, those book deals and gun show fees, to the Trayvon Foundation. Make him work every day of his lousy life for Trayvon.

    There’s another advantage to civil action. To be blunt, you won’t have to rely on painfully befuddled prosecutors like the ones we witnessed in that courtroom. In a lawsuit, you can choose the best legal gunslingers in the country.

    I’m not guessing about that. I asked fearsome Florida trial lawyer Mike Papantonio if he and his partner, civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy Jr., would take on the case if called. Papantonio said his firm is standing by, ready to help your legal team if asked. And I have no doubt there are other great plaintiff lawyers who would leap to your cause.

    Americans love to complain that there are “too many lawyers.” I agree that if some corporate defense lawyers drown in their hot tubs, only their mothers should cry. But it is our unique system of tort law that gives Americans the true Hammer of Justice. Plaintiff lawsuits, even more than government agencies or the FBI, are what keep drug companies from poisoning us and keep dangerous toys from maiming our kids. And, using section 1983 of the federal civil rights statute, it’s the power of the plaintiffs’ bar that stops racist jerks from denying jobs, mortgages and freedoms to people of color.

    And there’s one final reason to bring a civil action. Let the word go forth to any Zimmerman wannabe dreaming that wealth and admiration requires only their hunting down another dark-skinned kid in a hoodie: Maybe sick Florida law will keep you out of prison, but you will have your sorry ass dragged onto a witness stand, where you will be ripped up, ruined and busted for the rest of your life.

    So I’m asking you, as one dad to another, stand your ground and sue this killer – for Trayvon and for all our kids.

    With respect,

    Greg Palast

  4. fauxmccoy says:

    at the risk of sounding like a ghoul ….

    i am positive that i have read the full autopsy of jordan davis in all the discovery materials, but i cannot find it now. … well, i can, apparently, but from sleazy company that wants my credit card number first, even though they insist that there is no charge. color me skeptical.

    if anyone has a link, i’d be very grateful.

  5. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Fellow Leatherheads.
    I hope no one wakes up this morning with a music hangover. Ha. The musical birthday gifts given to Crane-Station via links yesterday were quite wonderful.
    I checked out my friend Greg Palast’s website this morning and found that he has written an open letter to Tracy Martin.
    I met Greg in Junior High School in Band class and he started talking to me about Peace and Justice way back then and hasn’t stopped yet.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Deborah — What a powerful communique. Thanks to Greg, I may take to calling GZ the Beast on occasion, or when in cheap shot mood, the FOB for Fogen Obese Beast.

      Thank you for sharing this link … The letter makes several key points about what civil action could produce as opposed to possible federal charges, and I would urge all to read.

    • LBTG says:

      The Martins would be facing very “deep pockets” for fogen’s defense – MOM, West, Sanford LE, and donations from supporters of NRA, KKK, white supremacists, sovereign citizens, website donations – making fogen even richer. You need the deep pockets and resources of the Federal government with a fair trial to put dunn, fogen and their ilk in their place. This SYG murdering of black young men is bigger than fogen & dunn.

      I’ve done this fight before in a church setting. The politics was way over my head and my group. Years later, the new Bishop got involved, but the Rector and his loyal followers outwitted him too. They even tried to steal the church building from the archdiocese. Then the police got involved, but the Rector went free on an Alford plea.

      The Trayvon case involves some really powerful forces – more powerful than we ever imagined to date. The Trayvon case is way over an individual’s head, and even local LE. This case will need more time and resources than the Martin family have to outwit these powerful groups supporting fogen. At the Federal level, we have politicians who depend on donations to get elected and stay in office.

      Hopefully I’m wrong and making a mountain out of a molehill.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Are you saying that even in a civil cast, there would be federal power at work? Sorry, I’m a little confused about what you meant in your comment.

        • LBTG says:

          You would need the power of the Federal Government to deal with fogen. Unfortunately, the people who would “pull the trigger” to make it happen are dealing with their own political pressures = dealing with issues that may be more important than fogen, getting campaign donations to get re-elected, and dealing with the consequences of taking action (igniting more hostility & bedlam between conservatives and liberals.)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Lucky friend! I loves me some Greg Palast – started reading him now and then about a decade ago.

    • Greg Palast is one of my heroes.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Can you imagine that we’ve been friends since we were 13? Danced with him at his bar mitzvah and again at one of the HS reunions. He introduced me to standing up for justice. We stayed sitting down together through the flag salute and national anthem during the Viet Nam war. Marched together in band. A wonderful and loyal friend who I couldn’t be prouder to know.

        • aussie says:

          I just reads that one article. You are blessed to have such a person for friend.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            aussie and bettykath,
            I’m so glad to share Greg’s website to folks who haven’t seen it.
            He’s written wonderful books and if you look at his site I think there are several that you can down-load for free.
            As a personal aside story, when we hooked up at a reunion, while we were dancing, Greg told me what he’d been doing…you know, catching up. He’d spent a lot of time living with the natives there, learning their language, kayaking the waterways, so that he could tell their story. The story of how Exxon chose to harm, how they manipulated, lied and demolished not only the habitat their, but the people who live on that land.
            He told me he was having a hard time “selling” the story to the main stream media. He was at that time investigating and not writing, exactly. I told him he was the smartest man and best communicator I’d ever known and encouraged him to write the story himself.
            He ended up writing and reporting for BBC2.

    • bettykath says:

      First time I’ve been to Palast’s blog. Usually read him from the Guardian or other sites. I’ve dropped Turley and added Palast. Soooo glad.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Hunny Bunny. What a smart woman you are.
        I’m laughing at myself, of course.
        Greg was living in London in 2000 and while watching the election news and especially the reported claims of ballot fraud. He noticed, like an intelligent person would, that virtually all of the complaints issued were from Black Males. He came back to the states and investigated and reported on the voter caging that Jeb Bush and Katherine (Kate The Cursed) allowed, or was only allowed? Was it something else, before hand? Don’t know.
        But, I do know that Palast is for individual and civil rights.
        And, he’s not a butt-likkin’ journalist who shows up at MSNBC every week. (Oh? did I say that?)

  6. LBTG says:

    Interesting thread development. Wonder if the DOJ would look into SYG hate crimes from the angle of Dunn or fogen belonging to one of these groups: KKK, sovereign citizen, white supremacists.

  7. Jun says:

    It’s Florida. Dunn’s brother is gonna go media whoring soon and say Blacks are risky. Omara will show up with photos of 2cm scratches and say Jordan was armed with a sidewalk.

    Sad thing is, now the law makes it, where when a cop or wanna be cop shoots you, they dont even need to plant a gun on you or crack

    They can just say “I thought he was reaching for his gun, so I shot him”

    or the cop who murdered Oscar Grant “er um, the gun just went off by accident after I handcuffed him and I pulled it out an pointed it at him”

    Or “I though the 4 foot tall Japanese kid was going to rob me and rape my wife so I shot him, although all he did was ring my doorbell”

    I aint even lying, people have skated using those lines

    Also add Robert Durst

    “I panicked after acting in self defense and I chopped up the body and hid the head”

    Pretty soon serial killers will be utilizing stand your ground

    • Drew says:

      Or mass shooters.

      I thought all those schoolchildren were going to shoot me, because the NRA told them to arm themselves.

      Or, more realistically, I was beat up in the locker room at school everyday and feared imminent harm – I knew the school wasn’t going to do anything about it, so I shot everyone in it / blew it up.

  8. MichelleO says:

    Poor people. Still trying to make sense of Florida and actually thinking that the family of Michael Dunn will get any justice. I said a year ago, that larger forces were supporting fogen because this economy is too messed up for any poor or working class people to be supporting this jerk’s lifestyle free of charge. There are pockets of communities in Florida that harken back to an earlier time in the South’s racial history. Don’t let the modern day buildings, cars, and clothing fool you: They still carry the history of racial injustice of their foremothers and fathers in their hearts.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I hear you, MichelleO!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Now I have to go back about 5 articles and catch up.

        We do have to do as much as we can to let it me known that we will not ignore injustice, that we will pay attention to such cases, and that we will spotlight them.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I am now caught up on all of our professor’s articles and the comments from the article on juror 29 up to this point.

          My take on all the back and forth here about juror 29 is that we all have a call to which we need to respond:

          The call? We are called to guide our children and grandchildren with the goal of instilling in them the courage to stand firm in their convictions and beliefs. NEVER again must a juror such as Juror 29 FOLD to the peer pressure of fellow jurors. NEVER again should a juror who knows the defendant is guilty come before the public and hide behind excuses for that which is unexcusable.

          Also, I personally, as a white person, would not bad mouth a black hispanic juror whose shoes I had not walked in. I have not lived the black experience……I have no right to judge juror 29 except to say that I pray that such future jurors will have the fortitude not to EVER allow ANYONE to turn them around.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I haven’t taken the time to read all the thread, so please excuse me if someone has posted this – OM is now blogging and has a recent, self-serving post about B29 – http://omaralawblog.com/

          • cielo62 says:

            YAHTC~ Once again, you live up to your name. That was a thoughtful comment. Time to look forward and prevent as best as we can, another juror giving up their duty to uphold their vow.


    • LBTG says:

      The “gun lovers” and NRA would be supporting Dunn & fogen. They are so afraid of losing their gun rights – very passionate attachment to guns, the flag, taking back America, …. There’s a lot of fear & STRONG beliefs – gun control, the alleged 47% that live on handouts – taking money out of their pockets while they have to work, whites becoming the minority, …. Money talks and a person with a gun kills any disagreement.

      I haven’t really heard anyone expressing fear of whites becoming the minority, but there is the KKK and white supremacists as evidence of that possibility. It’s sickening and the First Amendment allows them to be a$$holes. But now it’s getting more serious when we have legal murder defended by SYG.

      23 states have SYG. Why is Florida so different from the other 22 states. We’re been known as Flori-duh, and now Flori-die. We visited friends in a part of Florida where people fly the confederate flag. I suddenly noticed that I only saw white people.

      The court system is made of up laws and people. People with “no-compromise” biases muck up due process.

      • Xena says:

        @LBTG. The KKK’s Knight Riders’ National Office is located in Live Oaks, FL. They also have a branch office in Fort Myers, FL.

      • Drew says:

        I know this has been said before, but isn’t it surreal that the NRA didn’t support Trayvon’s right to be armed and defend against the fake cop who wanted to detain him against his will.

        If The Nuge was kidnapped by a roving gang of BLACK THUGGZ, what would be his weapon of choice, sidewalk concrete or a gun?

        Furthermore, as Jun has pointed out, if Trayvon was armed with sidewalk concrete, then GZ was as well. It’s right there for all of us to “use” to bludgeon people out on the street.

        Yikes – I’d better arm myself for the morning stroll down the road I’m about to take with my two kids.

  9. crazy1946 says:

    Did anyone else notice that Dunn’s face book page was deleted before the police could access it? I wonder what was on that page? Also any leads or information on the assault and battery that Dunn might have been involved in several years ago?

    • Xena says:

      LE did get to see Dunn’s FB. It was filled with sovereign citizen mumbo jumbo. Speaking of sovereign citizens, I posted an article about their ideology revealed in Juror B37’s comments on AC360, and Taaffe’s defense of Zimmerman.

      The professor and some others here might remember that I’ve associated sovereign citizenship ideology with GZ’s case since last year after watching Taaffe’s media interviews.

      Bob Hurt, who is leader of the sovereign citizen group in Florida, sent a comment in response to the article I guess wrote for 3Chicspolitico. It was not approved for posting, but I did respond to him. Hurt believes that the 13th Amendment needs revising. He speaks in “sovereign citizen speech” meaning, when he refers to people being “stupid,” he is referring to what he calls “Negroes.”

      Hurt’s perception on self-defense is that unless “Negroes” are sterilized, it’s the only means Caucasians have to rid this country of “Negroes” who will eventually grow up to commit crimes. Not to be racially bigoted, he includes all those who are not of “the pure White race” to also be “stupid.”

      The thugification of Black youth is a sovereign citizen agenda that gives them immunity from prosecution for committing murder as long as they present the victim as a thug or potential thug. The agenda goes deeper than that however, because sovereign citizens do not believe that they should obey legislated laws. Therefore, their hope is to counter laws against murder, but committing murder and using stand your ground as a defense.

      • aussie says:

        I believe the “sovereign” bit comes from being citizens of their STATE, and of the USA only by their State being in the Union. The “thugs” are citizens of the USA ONLY, and not of their (or any) State because they’re only citizens by the 13th amendment.

        I don’t see where not obeying laws comes into it, except perhaps Federal laws which they’d count as secondary to the State ones (contrary to the legal standing of Federal law as trumping State law).

        But what the heck, they don’t make much sense about anything else either.

        It would be interesting to do some DNA on some of these guys and see how many have a drop or two of non-Caucasian in them. Plenty, I’m sure.

        • Xena says:


          I believe the “sovereign” bit comes from being citizens of their STATE, and of the USA only by their State being in the Union.

          I can’t begin to breakdown the mumbo-jumbo ideology of sovereign citizens besides what they have written and proclaim. They claim they are “sovereign citizens” by the Declaration of Independence and not subject to law, whereas descendants of former slaves and foreigners who become U.S. citizens, are 14th amendment, or “statutory” citizens. To sovereign citizens, “statutes” or laws only apply to 14th amendment citizens.

          I don’t see where not obeying laws comes into it, except perhaps Federal laws which they’d count as secondary to the State ones (contrary to the legal standing of Federal law as trumping State law).

          Sovereign citizens have a conspiracy around how federal law came about, which they do not believe they have to obey either. Rather hypocritical, they do believe that they can petition the federal courts, such as in matters of bankruptcy, but that the court must do what they want. When the court disagrees, they argue that the court lacks jurisdiction. I’ve witnessed two cases where at least one sovereign citizen kept the court going in circles for almost 10 years until the federal court of appeals banned him from filing pleadings and cases until he paid a monetary sanction.

          • aussie says:

            Yeah, 14th, I typoed 13th I think.

            The attitude to law/non-law is just wanting to get their own way by force (sound familiar?). Talk about feeling “entitled”.

            Perhaps a State can be given them, there seem to be a few candidates which (a) want to leave anyway or (b) everyone else would be happy to cut off and float out into the ocean. And see how they go with no laws and no law.

            Oh, forgot, they’d still have the law of the gun, I guess. Okay, in a year, the handful of survivors could be generously readmitted to the US.

            It’s easy to make jokes about them, but the more I see the more I see they’re dangerous, so I hope and pray all of you who are close by can stop them.

            Someone should take a time machine and bring these guys into the 21st century.

          • Xena says:


            Yeah, 14th, I typoed 13th I think.

            For sovereign citizens, those two amendments are connected.

            The attitude to law/non-law is just wanting to get their own way by force (sound familiar?). Talk about feeling “entitled”.

            They believe in common law, which is along the lines of a Hatfield and McCoy type of feud.

            Perhaps a State can be given them, there seem to be a few candidates which (a) want to leave anyway or (b) everyone else would be happy to cut off and float out into the ocean. And see how they go with no laws and no law.

            Float out into the ocean? What about an iceberg that’s already in the ocean and melting?

            It’s easy to make jokes about them, but the more I see the more I see they’re dangerous, so I hope and pray all of you who are close by can stop them.

            They’re more dangerous than law enforcement realizes. One of the worst dangers is that those who do the talking, are not the ones who take action. They encourage and bully others into violating law as a testing ground so co-conspirators are seldom identified and prosecuted.

            Someone should take a time machine and bring these guys into the 21st century.

            They know they are in the 21st century and they don’t like it. Maybe a time machine to send them back to the 17th century is what we need.

        • What is a drop or two of non-Caucasian?

          • aussie says:

            Blood that isn’t white. Yeah, red anyway, you know what I mean. DNA that’s not “white”.

            I heard there’s a “one drop” rule. Lovely if it turned out some top supremacists were not 100% white…..

          • cielo62 says:

            already~ non-caucasian blood, ie black, oriental, native american…


      • crazy1946 says:

        Xena, Perhaps my eyesight has gone over the hill as well as the rest of me. I read in the discovery that his face book page had been deleted before they could see it, then again I also saw it mentioned that he had possibly been a person of interest in an assault case in possibly Juniper, Fl. again I’m going off memory and will have to go back and find it again to verify what my mind thinks it saw… Darn, I think that I am starting to master this getting old thing, I haven’t screwed it up yet.. I have finally found something that I’m really good at! Too bad I wasted all those years looking for something to be good at…. 😉

        • Xena says:

          @crazy1946. Xena, Perhaps my eyesight has gone over the hill as well as the rest of me. I read in the discovery that his face book page had been deleted before they could see it, …

          It was over on dothprotesttoomuch in comments that someone posted a link to a newspaper article that posted the contents of his Facebook page. They asked me if what he posted was sovereign citizenship. I checked it out then, but cannot now find the online newspaper article, neither can I remember what month that was posted on that blog to search for the comment.

          Darn, I think that I am starting to master this getting old thing, I haven’t screwed it up yet.. I have finally found something that I’m really good at! Too bad I wasted all those years looking for something to be good at…. 😉

          I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. 🙂

      • pat deadder says:

        Xena are omara and west part of the sovereign citizen group.

        • Xena says:

          @pat deadder.

          Xena are omara and west part of the sovereign citizen group.

          Listening to Don West, I would say no. Listening to O’Mara, he has probably bought into their ideology without knowing its roots. He sold his soul to the devil to defend GZ.

          • pat deadder says:

            Xena I don’t think he sold his soul to defend fogen sorry I can’t even bare to write his initials.Is it yemshemo seems I remember that many months ago.omara sold his soul to the devil by the way he chose to defend his cac client..By demonizing the victim,a child.I want to see fogen’s phone records that’s it Please somebody demand to see them.I didn’t realize they were sealed forever I thought it was only until the trial.And please let piglet’s wife serve time for perjury..Maybe Lester refused to throw the trial.Sorry I’m blathering on.

          • Xena says:

            @pat deadder.

            omara sold his soul to the devil by the way he chose to defend his cac client..By demonizing the victim,a child.

            Yes, O’Mara did, and he lied. He continued to lie. He lied during the trial and took things out of sequence to argue that GZ was still getting his head bashed on concrete although GZ said he moved his head off the concrete. That is, according to GZ, what caused his jacket to raise up exposing the gun.

            O’Mara also took advice from sovereign citizens and White Supremacists on how to proceed in the case. He began sounding like them, including using long, run-on sentences and talking over others.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        You might be interested in this informative comment that was posted to me under an NBC article back in November 2012:

        TJefferson-1649275 says:

        The situation inside the Republican Party is serious. The poorly educated, far right wing, extremist, fanatics in the Party are moving toward demanding the states’ rights doctrine of “Nullification.”

        They argue the Constitution reads that any given state, not the U.S. Supreme Court has the authority to declare a law unconstitutional in any given state. In other words, a state has the constitutional authority to “nullify” a federal law and therefore not obey it within the geographic bounds of that state. It is true that Jefferson and Madison made that argument in their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, but it is also true those Resolutions never did pass the Congress. The issue was resolved in 1803 when Chief Justice John Marshall and the U. S.Supreme Court ruled in Marbury vs Madison that the Court had that authority.

        The poorly educated, far right wing, extreme, fanatics in the Republican Party today are joining together in an organization called the 10th Amendment Society to demand the states adopt the “nullification doctrine.”

        Why? One of the main reasons is to nullify the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision, the decision that ordered segregation was not constitutional and that the United States would integrate at all deliberate speed. So, if the nullification doctrine were put into place, Arkansas legislature or the Mississippi legislature, or the Alabama legislature could nullify the Brown case and return the state to segregation. Not possible you say? Then, take a look at the voter statistics for those states and see how many whites voted for Obama.

        Think about that very real possibility and then let your mind run free to all of the other federal laws that could be nullified within the borders of the fifty states. In effect, nullification means that each state is a separate country and that therefore the United States is nothing more than a confederation of united states of america.

        #159.2 – Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:40 PM EST

        • aussie says:

          Thanks, yahtc. Interesting how people who can’t spell fancy themselves as constitutional lawyers.

          Actually California tried this in a small way by passing marijuana laws contrary to the Federal ones. But the Feds came in and showed them who is trumps. That is what they’re worried about and that is why they’re stockpiling arsenals.

          How long before that generation dies out? it may be the only hope. The younger ones might be distractable.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            A lot of that generation’s children are now home schooling their children. Who knows how their grandchildren will turn out.

            And then there is Glenn Beck trying to influence the children of his extreme right-winger audience.

  10. Drew says:

    Another slob who has his parents clean his messes.

  11. Girlp says:

    What are all the charges against Dunn? Was he charged with endangering the lives of the other passengers?

    • fauxmccoy says:


      yes. 1 count of murder 1, 3 counts of attempted murder, and 1 count of throwing an explosive projectile (paraphrasing here – but it refers to the actual firing of a gun).

      • Girlp says:

        Thanks Faux :)) I’m praying for justice once again. I’m praying the people of Florida come to their senses. I’m afraid this will not be any different than the Zimmerman case.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i will say that there is a noticeable difference in the quality and professionalism of the investigation. i am hoping against hope that (combined with home field advantage) will make a difference. i will forever question the wisdom of a 6 member jury.

    • aussie says:

      Attempted murder on the driver and 2 other passengers; Murder 1 on the dead boy.

      Corey does this all the time though –highest possible charges in hope of a plea deal. A lot easier than actually prosecuting a case, which as a result none of them have a lot of practice at. It’s all overcharge+deal, and many an innocent, too poor to afford defence, has accepted a deal instead of facing death row.

    • pat deadder says:

      Has Dunn put up a web site begging for money yet.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        not that i am aware — his folks are paying his attorney (corey stroller) a monthly fee of $7.5k. his claims for indigence were denied.

        • roderick2012 says:

          @faux, I believe it’s actually Dunn’s money that he transferred to his parents in expectation of a civil suit against him for murder of Jordan Davis.

          That was one of the reasons he returned home the morning after the shooting.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            aaaah haaaa! i had not yet heard that part of the saga. this dude’s a real POW (that’s piece o’work in my book).

  12. dianetrotter says:

    Does the fact that he was drinking at to the charges.

    • Linda Andersen says:

      I sure hope so, since I’ve always believed that anyone charged with DWI (or DUI, depending of your jurisdiction) should also be charged with Murder if he/she kills someone.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        since dunn was not apprehended until the next day, there would be no tox report. dunn says he had 1 rum and coke at his son’s wedding earlier that day, his girlfriend says it was 3. i’m sure they are both underestimating, but there is nothing to be done about it legally.

        • Nef05 says:

          No, there isn’t, as far as a tox screen. But, if AC is at all serious about this case, she’s already had the bartenders for the wedding interviewed. Correlations can be made, according to how many drinks he was served within what amount of time. Surveillance photos from the venue can tell what time he left, and the 911 calls for the incident, refuting that he would have had enough time between his drinking and the shooting for it to have worn off. They should also have subpoenaed the wedding video, since the groom’s father might be relatively prominent and can speak to his relative drunkeness.

          I’m 99.9% sure he was drunk. I’m also 99.9% sure (as a former bartender for 20 yrs) that if the bartenders were interviewed within a week/2 weeks of the event, they remember the father of the groom, what he was drinking and how many drinks he was served. Whether they would admit it or not, fearing they might get into trouble for “:overserving”, is another question. The bartenders social media might be helpful, as well, since this hit the news quickly, and the bartenders likely recognized him, and posted to their friends that they worked the wedding he was at and he was drunk as shit, or words to that effect.

          Of course, this is all predicated on the assumption that AC is actually serious, which remains to be seen.

          • That’s an excellent example of thinking like an investigator and the information may still be available as it is the sort of thing the witnesses likely should remember, since the murder happened right after the reception.

  13. Jun says:

    I send prayers for Jordan Davis, however, considering Florida’s crazy gun law, where Tony Hayward, a black man skated by using the exact same story as Dunn, was acquitted, I am not confident

    T0ny’s story was “I thought he had a gun, so I shot him”

    I hope Corey is on her A-game because the Trayvon trial was a total farce

    The jury was ridiculous on the Trayvon trial and so was the prosecution at times as I was wondering about the lack of objections of motioning during jury selection

  14. Dave says:

    Happy Birthday, Crane!

  15. fauxmccoy says:

    stumbling along

  16. LBTG says:

    After looking at the incidents, if I were an AA, I wouldn’t go when it is dark outside. Too many people get spooked and imagine potential gun & violence.

    Isn’t it interesting to look at the word “spook”.
    Spook: “derogatory term referring to a black person or someone of African descent;”
    ▸ noun: a mental representation of some haunting experience
    ▸ noun: someone unpleasantly strange or eccentric
    ▸ verb: frighten or scare, and often provoke into a violent action (“The noise spooked the horse”)

    Our language influences us subconsciously. Another interesting word: Invalid
    IN’va-lid and in-VA’-lid

    • No one under 35 knows “spook” as a reference to black people.

      And no black person should refrain from venturing out at night because of terrorism.

      • Linda Andersen says:

        It’s also a common term for US and Canadian espionage agents(CIA, FBI, etc.) Sorry! Living in the DC area for 25 years does that to a person.

        This case makes me sick as well. I will never live in Florida again, although I have to admit, Arizona is just as crooked. I simply like the climate better!

      • cielo62 says:

        Alreadybeensaid- women already are told this many times; you are “asking” to be raped if you out alone at night. There are many people who are potential victims, but instead of going after the predators, they blame the victims!!


      • nocamo33 says:

        Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. A privilege we take for granted, denied to so many of our beloved brethren.

        • Those words appear in the Declaration of Independence. They were written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776.

          We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

          Of course, he was a slave owner when he wrote those timeless words.

          • LBTG says:

            I wish they’d have said that “all PEOPLE are created equal”. At that time, women did not have all the rights they have today. Women couldn’t vote. When they said “all men are created equal”, that didn’t include women.

          • bettykath says:

            What it meant was all men of means. I’m not sure just when “freeman” went out of use but many immigrants came as indentured servants. The men became free men, “freemen”, once they had served out their term. So white male property owners had rights. All others served them.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Good point prof. Cognitive dissonance?

  17. LBTG says:

    Does it matter which shot killed Davis if Dunn shot at a vehicle moving away? If Dunn’s shot hit the car as it was leaving, Dunn had an intent to shoot and kill.

    BTW, I watched 48 hours about a murder where there were no witnesses except the husband. The prosecutors described their scenario where all the pieces fit. The defense described their scenario. The defendant was convicted.

    I suspect what is happening in Florida is that Angela Cory is choosing charges that have too high of a bar to get a conviction. It happened with Casey Anthony – charge with death penalty. It may have happened with Trayvon given a lot of unknowns.

    Has Corey learned her lesson? Dunn is being charged with first degree murder and three counts of attempted murder. Attempted murder should be easy to prove in the Dunn case.

    • cielo62 says:

      LBTG- I wondered about that. Unless some theory has an extra gun man on the grassy knoll…


    • J4TMinATL says:


      Technically, no it doesn’t matter but it’s interesting. He fired shots while Durango was not moving and continued when Durango drove away because of gun shots.

      And the Durango wasn’t shooting back because no one had the phantom shotgun.

      Police would have a hard time justifying shooting even if Durango was full of shooting felons.

      • pat deadder says:

        Lets face it Dunn was drunk.It can’t be proven but why else would he leave.Hope he was charged with leaving the scene..Maybe something will stick.

        • pat deadder says:

          I also don’t believe the DOJ will do anything to fogen.I’ve lost all hope in the justice system from top to bottom.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Angela Cory didn’t prosecute the Casey Anthony case.

      I still don’t understand why she charged Piglet with Murder 2 if they didn’t have a plausible scenario as to how he murdered Trayvon that night then at the trial NOTHING.NADA.

      I wonder what happened between April 2012 and June 2013.

    • Romaine says:

      I thought the grand jury decided the charges against Dunn, and it was also documented that the doors of the car were not open during the shooting, as stated by Dunn. Dunn also says that he heard the threats to his life while his car windows were rolled up. which I call BS, since Dunn states the music was blasting when he claims his life was being threatened by a kid sitting in the back seat of another vehicle while he sits in his car with his windows rolled up???? now that is some drunk imaginings of an enraged individual who felt he was being disrespected when his request was ignored by the passengers of that car. those young men probably cursed him out, cracked jokes, laughed at him, and he couldn’t take it.

  18. J4TMinATL says:

    I looked at the rods placed into the holes.

    The question of which bullet killed Jordan is a good question. 8 shots. Police and trained firearm folks don’t take shooting at a moving vehicle lightly. Most departments have some type of policy on shooting moving subjects.

    He sees a phantom shotgun appear from Durango (his 2nd story) and he takes the time to get gun from glove box? That time, although seconds is premeditation. It’s hard to shoot from drivers seat. Those angles show he used two hands to shoot.

  19. MDH says:

    Dunn has no self defense claim.

    Sadly, in the USA, anything one can imagine about black males becomes a reasonable doubt.

  20. nocamo33 says:

    If Dunn was black, FL jurors would not need forensics or even witnesses to convict. But because he is not, despite the fact that we have all of that, we must worry that he has a very good chance of escaping justice. Those damn (derogatory name for blacks) shouldn’t have blasted their music, looked so scary, used foul language (cause we all know whites don’t), shouldn’t have congregated with so many other black male youths (one is scary enough dammit) and a myriad of other dumb things these black young men did to bring this upon themselves. Let us be sure to check the deceased’s FB page, make sure he never smoked pot and measure his height and weight. I am sure it will be clear to the jury the dead black youth was the aggressor, no matter what all the other circumstances were.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Some space attorney will work his magic to get him off.

      Cuz he’s a pilot.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I have so many restless nights already, my mind spinning on Fogen’s case, that I’ll just implode if Dunn gets off.

        Please say it’s impossible.

      • pat deadder says:

        J4T some space attorney will work his magic.Or some space attorney’s wife.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @pat deadder

          dunn is like the Rainman of pilots … “i’m a good pilot on Sum days”

          did you see the link i posted to crane where the FBI escorted him and his plane from the restricted air space of the space shuttle? he says he was ‘disoriented and confused’. sounds like a permanent state of mind.

          if you did not see the link, let me know and i’ll post it for you. it’s worth reading. this is not the first time dunn has made the national news and for your average citizen, this is not a good thing.

    • Right. Basically, put Jordan Davis on trial, convict him with a lying bitch at the helm of the jury, and thugify the other three boys to prove our point.

      O’Mara qualifies for Hell, but I am not even sure Satan would want him. So anyway, who is the new O’Mara (ie who is Dunn’s attorney? Strolla? Is he possibly as obnoxious as O’Mara?)

    • aussie says:

      Well he was “asking for it”. Apparently he told them to turn it down, someone DID turn it down, and Jordan said something which made the driver (?) turn it back UP AGAIN. That is outright insolence and insubordination, daring to countermand the Massa’s order.

      They should not have been there anyway, as the driver was out past his probation curfew. So they’re all obviously in the wrong just to exist, to start with.

    • racerrodig says:

      The amazing thing here is that no hoodies were involved. Just a racist, his gun and recorded music.

  21. diary73 says:

    From what I’ve read, his anger was directed at Jordan Davis for defying him, and he shot the teen three times before the car sped off. I also thought that Dunn’s car was on the passenger side of the Durango, and Jordan was sitting in the rear passenger seat. But I might be wrong on that point.

    • You’re correct about their respective positions.

      • diary73 says:

        If this is the case, his shooting toward the other side of the car as it sped away is very damning. Total disregard for human life.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @diary73 … the shots aimed at the back of the SUV which landed in the driver’s sun visor are just as horrifying. who in their right mind lets loose with gunfire around unarmed kids, gasoline pumps, but further puts a shot so close to the driver’s head?

          self defense is ludicrous in such a case — dunn’s action showed not just a blatant disregard for the lives of his victims, but those all around, even his own.

          with the thorough investigation and solid witnesses to this crime, if florida can’t get this one right, they are all doomed.

          • LBTG says:

            Hopefully we’ll get a different governor instead of Governor Scott-Free.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            he’s not my governor – i’m delighted to have my childhood governor back in office again here in california. jerry brown is a damn good man.

            for the sake of florida and the rest of the country, i hope that rick scott is wheezing his last political breaths. seriously — what kind of retiree filled states elects a medicare fraud as their executive???

          • racerrodig says:

            In his police interview he said he saw a shotgun barrel…….when told no weapon was found he said “….or a stick……did you find one of those?”

          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh yeah … loved that … ‘or a stick, did you find one of those?’ classic!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Is it likely medical examiners and other investigators will be able to determine sequence of the bullets shot into vehicle andwhich bullet was the fatal one? Or the first fatal, if more than one would have done in the victim? If an early bullet were pinpointed as the one that killed Jordan, would other bullet wounds he sustained when vehicle driver was fleeing still count damningly against the shooter who clearly was shooting at a retreating group?

      • pat deadder says:

        Please by all that’s holy no Dr Shipping Bao or whatever the hell his name is.as the ME.

        • It will be the other ME, Dr. Valery Rao, who testified as a prosecution witness about GZ’s wounds. She’s the Duvall County ME.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @fred — i thought a different ME signed off on the autopsy that i read — will recheck my sources.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @pat deadder — no, it was not shipping bao, he is the ME for seminole county. this case takes place in corey’s home jurisdiction and even dr. rao was not the ME for this case. we get to meet an all new (and likely unimproved) ME.

          • pat deadder says:

            fauxmccoy Thank you.We get to meet an all new and likely unimproved ME.Well I was waiting for shipping bao to say he had even more information and Trayvon could have survived the autopsy for a few minutes.This one has to be an improvement or maybe not.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @pat deadder

            Well I was waiting for shipping bao to say he had even more information and Trayvon could have survived the autopsy for a few minutes.

            maybe bao will make a guest appearance, one can have dreams, no?

            that whole trial felt like a bad reality show to me and i don’t watch TV .. i guess a surreality show would be more appropriate. were it not for the underlying tragedy, it would be comedy. it’s not exactly fair to the people involved, but with the exception of the martin/fulton family, i just see them all as a ‘cast of characters’. your post which i quoted just adds to the show.

  22. Sophia33 says:

    If Dunn gets off from this, Florida should be exiled from the union. And let them take Texas with them. The new nation could be called Flex-ASSES.

    My concern is not that he gets off but that he someone how gets a lighter sentence. I know there are mandatory minimums and maximums, but you never know. Mental incompetence? Extenuating circumstances?

  23. Ezz-Thetic says:

    We shall see. Crazy things happen in Flori-die.

    • colin black says:

      Florida the sunshine state an gun crime state.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Gunshine State.

        • Florigun.

          And now I don’t trust Angela Corey either. Why did she take the case away from Guy, and why did she not put a stop to that other charade?

          • abbyj1 says:

            C-S, Now I don’t trust Corey, either. Hindsight is definitely 20/20 here. We can look back and see that she let far too much slide by. We have two choices in believing how this occurred:

            1. incompetence on her part
            2. deliberate effort to let this case fly under the radar

            Looking back, there were so many things Corey could have done to ensure a conviction, but she did not. I don’t want to condemn her as part of the JebBush/RickScott/Ultra-Right-Wing conservative cabal of Florida politics, but maybe that’s the overriding principle that guided her all along.

          • If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .

          • When stuff like this happens, I usually look to follow the money. Or some sort of agenda. I don’t know what it is. But if Dunn also walks, which he may, I can see Florida tourism take a hit. Zimmerman had Big Money behind him from somewhere, for some reason. That sort of money does not come from private individuals in this economy. Just an opinion.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            michael dunn does seem to have family money behind him. this article made me laugh because i remembered the incident. yet another occasion where he made national news for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and doing something supremely stupid.


          • Who the hell flies over restricted air space? He is fortunate he was escorted, and not shot, down.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            no kidding — he sounds like a total dope at the best of times. why he has a pilots license and a ccw is a complete mystery.

          • “confused and disoriented”

            Why didn’t that get a bit more attention, for somebody flying a PLANE in restricted air space?

            Has the whole world gone crazy?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @crane — have you seen his videos of the interrogations? years later, dude is still ‘confused and disoriented’.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @abbyj says

            I don’t want to condemn her as part of the JebBush/RickScott/Ultra-Right-Wing conservative cabal of Florida politics,

            but that is precisely where she fits in, abby. i’d be shocked if she was not toting her own CCW and snub nosed pistol in her oversized handbag.

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