Breaking down the Michael Dunn indictment

Thursday, July 25, 2013

Good afternoon my friends:

A grand jury returned a five-count indictment last December against Michael Dunn for shooting into a red Dodge Durango killing Jordan Davis, an unarmed black 17-year-old male. Dunn is a 46-year-old white male.

The shooting occurred in the parking lot of a gas station and convenience store in Jacksonville, FL on November 23, 2012. Four black male teenagers were sitting in the Durango listening to music when Dunn drove up and parked next to them on the passenger side. Jordan Davis was sitting in the back seat of the Durango on the passenger side with his window down.

After Dunn’s girlfriend entered the store to purchase wine and potato chips, Dunn complained about the volume of the music and told the teenagers to turn it down. After someone in the front seat turned it down, Jordan Davis objected and the person turned up the volume back up.

Dunn and Davis started arguing. After stating, “you’re not going to talk to me like that,” Dunn pulled out a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun and started squeezing off shots into the Durango, hitting Davis multiple times, killing him.

Dunn got out of his car and kept firing as the driver of the Durango backed out of the parking place and sped away.

Dunn fired 8 shots. Fortunately, no one else was injured.

After hearing the shots, Dunn’s girlfriend rushed back to the vehicle and got in leaving the bottle of wine, potato chips, and the money to pay for them on the counter.

A few minutes later, after Dunn peeled out of the parking lot, the teenagers in the red Dodge Durango, who had stopped in a nearby parking lot to check on Jordan and assess the damage to the vehicle, called 911 and returned to the scene to wait for the police and the ambulance to arrive.

The teenagers were unarmed and the police did not find any weapons in their vehicle. Police also searched the route they had taken and the area where they briefly stopped. They did not find any weapons.

The indictment alleges in Count 1 that Michael Dunn committed first degree premeditated murder when he shot and killed Jordan Davis. Dunn has admitted the shooting but claims that he acted in self-defense.

Here is the Florida Supreme Court jury instruction for first degree premeditated murder:

To prove the crime of First Degree Premeditated Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

3. There was a premeditated killing of (victim).

An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of premeditation at the time of the killing.

(Transferred intent. Give if applicable.)

If a person has a premeditated design to kill one person and in attempting to kill that person actually kills another person, the killing is premeditated.

Counts 2-4 each allege that Michael Dunn, while acting with premeditated intent to kill each of the other three teenagers, attempted to kill them by shooting into the vehicle.

The Florida Supreme Court jury instruction for attempted first degree premeditated murder provides:

To prove the crime of Attempted First Degree Premeditated Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Defendant) did some act intended to cause the death of (victim) that went beyond just thinking or talking about it.

2. (Defendant) acted with a premeditated design to kill (victim).

3. The act would have resulted in the death of (victim) except that someone prevented (defendant) from killing (victim) or [he] [she] failed to do so.

A premeditated design to kill means that there was a conscious decision to kill. The decision must be present in the mind at the time the act was committed. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the act. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the act was committed.

The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the attempted killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of premeditation at the time of the attempted killing.

It is not an attempt to commit first degree premeditated murder if the defendant abandoned the attempt to commit the offense or otherwise prevented its commission under circumstances indicating a complete and voluntary renunciation of [his] [her] criminal purpose.

Count 5 of the indictment charges Michael Dunn with “wantonly or maliciously” shooting a firearm at, within or into a vehicle, which was being used or occupied by any person. Count 5 is a felony.

Since Count 5 is a felony, Michael Dunn could also be convicted of first degree murder in Count 1, pursuant to the felony murder rule, if the jury convicts Dunn on Count 5 (a felony) that results in the unlawful death of Jordan Davis.

Notice that the felony murder rule is an alternative method of proving first degree murder that does not require proof of premeditation. Instead, it requires proof of a predicate felony, such as Count 5, that unlawfully causes the death of another person.

Dunn’s defense is self-defense and like Zimmerman, he has a credibility problem. He initially said that he fired in self-defense because he feared the boys were going to rush him. Subsequently, he said he thought he saw a shotgun.

The jury will have to decide if he believed he was in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm and if so, whether his belief was reasonable.

If you have not already done so, go to the following link to review the discovery (H/T to fauxmccoy for providing the link):

Click to access Michael-Dunn-discovery-materials.pdf


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247 Responses to Breaking down the Michael Dunn indictment

  1. Elizabeth says:

    So even though this his neighbor says Dunn(geon) is a total fascist
    jerk he finds it neccesary to point out that it was not about race.
    Why? How would he know? Is he Black? What others where they discussing? What would it prove or unprove?
    Wanna bet this effer is gonna be a defense witness?

  2. Thrace says:

    Found this comment on Melissa Harris-Perry’s Dec 2012 blog entry. Dunn did live in Port St Lucie for a time, so I think fellow is probably legit.-

    “I know Michael Dunn. I lived next door to him in Port St Lucie, Florida for ten years. He is a hothead and a typical bully. He gets agitated and overbearing if someone does not agree with him regardless the issue. He is a large man about 6’2′ or taller and weighed in at a hefty 280 lbs when I lived next door to him. That does not make him a racist. I do not believe this had anything to do with race other than perhaps the music that was being played was probably rap. I do however believe Dunn was probably drinking before this terrible incident and his temper got the better of him. He had a lot of trouble dealing with people that did not do as he said or think the way he thought. He is in fact very arrogant and thinks he is smarter than everyone else. As I said, he tended to be a bully and tried to force his beliefs on anyone that would dare to disagree with him. I had more than one heated conversation with this individual but I was not afraid of him and could not be intimidated and he was very aware that I was not a intimidated in the least by him. In the time that I was acquainted with Dunn, I can honestly say I do not recall him ever using racial epitaths when discussing others.”

  3. Elijah says:

    Saw that pathetic interview with the lates juror. Sweet lord – Dr. Suess should have tried this case.

  4. colin black says:

    moderation again?

  5. colin black says:

    Hurrah got my pc back an its running sweet .
    Got rid of about 4 bands of rubbish at top of my screen an the annoying pop ups an only cost 20 pounds.

    As I tried to post yesterday but got stuck in moderation.
    Those zimmspin nitwits are in for a shock if there thinking about adopting….. thease colours don’t run…..

    A very good friend of mine Derek has that phrase copy righted as its the title of a book an un up comeing film
    An forget about the Mexican Mafia if they get the CCS Capital City Service on there asses they wont get a chance to stand there ground.
    As it will be pulled out from underneath them

    Anyway emailed Derek an he has informed his lawer to keep an eye on the situation.

  6. silk says:

    BDLR didnt wanna win . he was clearly protecting the sanford police department . most of the evidence that they had against the defense was not even mention . so yes it was fix !! had to be. how can the jury be sooo stupid to beleave that the broken nose photo was real . u have women as jurors and u mean that they actually beleave that it was a grown man with a gun screaming for help./…….

    • KateW says:

      Sounds like they all covered up the killing of a Black child. I think it all stems from the Fulton’s saying they just wanted a trial so the Governor and all involved said ok…we will give you a trial. However it was probably told to them to let the situation go because they did not want a guilty verdict shedding bad light on the Stand Your Ground law as it relates to White people. If you look at the percentage of Blacks going to jail after claiming stand your ground, it is a lot higher for them than Whites. So it is acceptable for Whites to “stand their ground” but not the African Americans, even though evidence says they were standing their ground. Marissa Alexander is one example of how slanted the laws, the courts and the system favors one race over the other.

  7. KateW says:

    They are saying the killer’s rescue of the family was staged. The officer involved was and is a long time supporter of the killer, as per his facebook, before and after the incident; however, during the day of the crash he makes no mention of Zimmerman being there. The officer then deletes his facebook and twitter page, but not after folks captured it. Uh huh…I will let you guys read the rest.

  8. silk says:

    Dont much about the law , but my thing is, do they have enough to chare zimmerman . or is Holder trying to wait for every thing to die down and say a theral investagation has been conducted and the bias jury got it right . I mean this case has really made alot of black people sick on the stomach . the shit that BDRL pulled was just as sickening as zimmerman pulling the trigger. .then u got this chic comin on tv saying zimmerman got away with murdr. JUSTICE

  9. Tee says:

    Sorry I was typing to fast didn’t proofread

  10. Tee says:

    Now its b29 fault, this is sad that we here are blaming that woman, how about bkaming the prosecution for not stressing hell evdn stating to the juror s to hold onto their vite no matter what. They never once said it and that is elementary. It’s not right to lay blame at this woman feet.

    • cielo62 says:

      Tee- there’s plenty of blame to go around. Truth is this woman was the last line for justice and she failed miserably AS A HUMAN BEING. I hope the shame is piled high and deep on her.


      • Danita says:

        I agree with cielo62 because how can u sit on a jury and then come out after the verdict and say he got away with murder and the power to resist was in ur hands. She could have stuck by her gut feeling and hung the jury with no problem. As a juror when something doesnt fit or make sense you dont decide I would think. That apology to the parents of Trayvon was crazy, if I were Sabrina I would be livid because after the fact ur telling me he got away with murder, what and she’s suppose to feel good about her choice. Thats some bullshigidy……she may as well not even spoken out because she imo only added to Sabrinas pain…come on this whole thing has become crazy if those women didnt understand the law, then they should have asked for it to be explained again and again until it became clear. My take is that they got tired of being held in away from their lives and rushed their decision.You can’t possibly have sat on that jury and seen and heard what they heard and believed that man was not guilty and found something to connect his obvious guilt is insane to me.

    • Boyd says:

      They are not lawyers, and should not be trying to interpret law with a microscope

      In an earlier post you state:
      she clearly stated in her instruction that there is no duty to retreat if the defendant had a right to be where he was

      Now you are blaming the prosecution.

      If JN instruction were correct then Florida should just come out and tell the world, “We’ve written our laws to allow you to kill anyone you want. Just make up a story that fits our law”.

      Nice to know that Florida wasted our time, the Police, Lawyers, time, no need for investigations as well. He had a right to be there so let’s all go home for dinner.

    • Woow! says:

      We are not blaming her, we are angry with her for allowing those other women to bully her into changing her mind.

      Don’t go on TV and say a murder got away, yeah we know that b/c her vote set him free. Is that her fault, in a way yes but it would be wrong of us to put that on her shoulders . She know should have stood her ground.

      God will take care of him….. stop invoking God in everything. Religious zealots using God to justify everything they do is what is wrong with this country now. When we can get all the bible thumper out of politics and writing laws the better off we will be.

      I truly believe that juror B29 is genuinely hurting because CAC got off. She knows that what ever was said to her in that room was a lie and their freeing CAC can not be taken back.

      • cielo62 says:

        Woow!- well God will get her as well. She failed at a fundamental time when standing for truth was crucial. She failed miserably. Don’t think karma, or god will let her slither away Scott free.


    • @Tee

      Now its b29 fault, this is sad that we here are blaming that woman, how about bkaming the prosecution for not stressing hell evdn stating to the juror s to hold onto their vite no matter what. They never once said it and that is elementary. It’s not right to lay blame at this woman feet.


      These women knew what they were doing and are not/were not stupid. Sexism allows women to get away with not taking responsibility for their own actions. B29 (Maddy) did not want to take responsibility and wants to have it both ways. B29 even states that she feels that Z is guilty of killing Trayvon Martin. It was already established that Z “killed” Trayvon Martin. The question is whether he is guilty of murder or manslaughter. B29 dodged the issue to have it both ways. B29 abdicated her responsibility and wants to be exonerated in the eyes of the public now that she sees she is not a hero to world. The racist power structure wants to comfort her and will quickly attempt to scold the black and pro-justice community for not comforting also.


      I know we want someone to blame but you can’t blame this woman. The SYG law was used that’s what the judge wrote for them. So if you want to blame someone blame the crapy job the prosecution done. Had they really tried by preping their witnesses, putting on a rebuttal case, and playing Trayvon voice from another recording we would have had a guilty verdict. You can’t do a half ass job and expect the verdict to go in your favor. They knew what they were doing that’s why Corey didn’t prosecute this case herself.

      People need to take responsibility for their actions. B29 could have hung the jury and forced the state to retry the case since she “felt” the guy was guilty. B29 wanted to have it both ways, please everyone and absolve herself. She is worse than B37 because B37 liked Z and empathized with him and believed him. This is sexism. Had B29 been a man, NO ONE would be saying “don’t blame this man he didn’t understand the law.”

    • type1juve says:

      She is to blame. She had a duty to dispense justice for the victim (Trayvon Martin) and she failed miserably. The fact that a child was murdered in cold blood didn’t mean a thing to this jury. This woman has the nerve to say that she feels the pain that TM’s parents feel. How ignorant is that? That statement gives me insight into how her stupid mind works. She should have stayed at home with her eight children. I pity them having a mother like her.

  11. Tee says:

    We Americans don’t need or want laws like SYG! Make your voice be heard. If a person is claiming Self defense than it should hold up in court I say tighten up the loop holes in the Self defense law and do away with the SYG law. We are our government so if we don’t like it vote to change it. We can’t vote the same people in and expect a different result. We lay no blame at the feet of the very people we cast our ballots for. So I say we put those fools in office and they did our country a disservice by creating and passing this law and by getting into bed with ALEC. We don’t want that law be bold enough to say it with your vote.

  12. silk says:

    B29 is crazy . point blank . dont know why she went on tv to co-sign a child killer . bcause thats what she did . my question is how long would ERIC HOLDER TAKE??

  13. Tee says:

    JN instructions is the reason that he was found not guilty. So I disagree with you she clearly stated in her instruction that there is no duty to retreat if the defendant had a right to be where he was . That’s what she wrote. Just because we feel it & belive it to be true we have to prove it and they failed. The stupid ass law worked just not for Trayvon, if we are so angry how about be angry at the people who wrote the law and the one’s that passed the law. How about we show them how angry we are by voting them out and putting people in that will repeal this death law. So when the election comes around we remenber that SYG is olny in red states how about we turn those states blue or at least vote someone in that promises to repeal the law.

    • Boyd says:

      no duty to retreat if the defendant had a right to be where he was
      required. ???????????

      I’m baffled
      What was the point of 2 weeks of witnesses, to determine if he had a right to be there?

      If you can get off because you had the right to be there, it’s almost impossible to convict anyone for murder outside the home, for a lot of people make sure no one is around when they kill

    • Olivia says:

      Tee, here in Pennsylvania (a blue state) we have a castle law that was changed a few years ago to include SYG.

      Seems a lot of people in PA are not aware of the change, because they still talk about shooting a person outside their home, then dragging the body inside.

      • Boyd says:

        lol did not know we have it. have not head of anyone using it. maybe we’re a tad smarter , do not need the drama

        • Olivia says:

          For the state overall, I’d think it reasonable to believe many aren’t aware of the change. Here in the southwest portion, they flipped from blue to “god and guns” in the last 2 presidential elections.

          If they spill their bowl of popcorn while reaching for the remote, they say “thanks, Obama”!

  14. Woow! says:

    We can put our heads together and try to figure this until eternity and we never will. I think he prosecution more than proved their case with the information they put forth. Yes they could have done more but I still think it was enough for a conviction for M2 or MS.

    The reality of the situation is JN let MOM and company get away with too much and he was able to race bait bigots for an entire year. He put an innocent child on trial.

    The jury selected was never going to convict CAC. They were too busy worring about TM than the man who was on trial.

    B29, I have no words for that woman. How dare she say anything on how the Martin/Fulton’s feel. She let bullies intimidate her into changing her vote and let a child murderer go free.

    B29 is no lawyer and to try and interpret what the law was in the jury instructions rather than follow JN instruction is a travesty.

    Those women considered info that was stricken. Shame on them. Shame on them. Shame on them.

    Yeah God will take care of them as she put it. He will ask her why she changed her votes when she knew in her heart that man is a murder.

    • Boyd says:

      Yes, pisses me off, these Jurors keep talking about Florida law would not let them convict.

      They are not lawyers and the Judge gave them the case, so obviously common sense would tell you “Yes, of course we could convict else THEY JUDGE WOULD NOT GIVE US THE CASE”

      • Woow! says:

        Jurors are supposed to find facts only, not laws. CAC panel of jurors acted like they were lawyers. Someone was talking to them and what we are hearing is lawyer speak, shady MOM lawyer speak.

  15. Boyd says:

    Since it’s Friday, On a lighter note about Michael Dunn, I looked up his company and found a ripoff complaint report in 2009. ‘The’ Michael Dunn responded to the complaint. These two cats were going at it.

    The guy is all bullshit, Copper wire is a bad thing? Ha Ha Ha!
    Put the blame on the copper wiring not his crap software. And his comment about the customer of being Cowboy and ‘usually has his six guns a blazing’.

    yeah it’s you who come out guns a blazing in 2012.

  16. J4TMinATL says:

    Nathan Deal can kiss my arse! Can’t wait to get him out of office.

    Look at Oklahoma, wow.

  17. LBTG says:

    Isn’t the SYG unconstitutional / or against the Bill of Rights. EVERY American have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We’ve seen instances of people murdering in Florida and going free ( or “not guilty”) through SYG. Homicides have increase 7 to 9 percent in states that have passed SYG.

  18. MDH says:

    Re the Dunn interview posted above.

    Dunn keeps goes on and on about hearing them singing about “kill the bitch” and then rolling the window down and saying “are you talking to me”. Where have I heard that line before?

    Travis Bickel

    In Taxi Driver, Travis Bickel was a paranoid nut insignificant man with delusions of grandeur.


    • Tee says:

      That’s where the lie come in, because the Windows could only be controlled by the drivers side, the rest didn’t work and he was out of the vehicle. That is also true about the back doors, child lock was on, so they couldn’t have been getting out of the truck to “advance upon him.”

    • The “thugs” sound like Boyz N The Hood…

      “shotgun” or “stick”:

  19. YQ says:

    About B29…. LOLs: They were able to talk this sheep from Murder 2 all the way down to not guilty?? Shame on her because I would have hung that jury. The screams were not Fogen’s, therefore he murked Tray. Period. Now that dude walks even though you felt like he was guilty!

    • LBTG says:

      When B29 said something like she thought Murder 2 and then said they didn’t have enough evidence. Was there anything in her recent statement that she may have had legal advice from another juror to say there wasn’t enough evidence to convict?

      And, if B29 is correct, then we know why the prosecution was so weak because they knew they didn’t have a strong enough case to convict.

      • Boyd says:

        The Judge handed the case to the Jury. That tells me there was enough to convict.

        Why 6 jurors believe they know the law is preposterous.

        • Rachael says:

          And then the Judge give them the law as pertinent to their case. They have to apply that law to their case – not what they feel, what they think, but the law as given to them by the judge and the evidence.

  20. YQ says:

    Can’t wait to see this guy put behind bars… no shotgun found in the vehicle. He is a liar just like Fogen was. “Oh the black guys threatened me!” Sure thing, buddy. Dunn has got to go to prison FOR LIFE + 20. If he didn’t like the loud music, why couldn’t he just go to another gas station? There’s one on every corner. SMH.

    And while you’re trippin’.. there should also be a count of reckless endangerment since he discharged his firearm in a gas station and put patrons at risk.

    • Romaine says:

      YQ not just patrons, what if he hit one of the gas tanks, mister I pulled my gun from the glove compartment and started shooting because I saw a shot gun or maybe it was a stick?????

  21. Malisha says:

    I just want to say, today is July 26, 2013 and SHAME SHAME SHAME ON BERNIE DE LA RIONDA.

    He will collect his prize. He has been responsible for plenty of convictions and some deaths. He got “his suspects.” Some of them are dead. In my book, today, he is no better than Fogen, whom he freed. EMANCIPATION DAY FOR CRIMINALS, you fake, you fraud, you dirty prosecutor.

    ‘smatter, can’t convict a white man?

  22. Olivia says:

    Isn’t that another fact that Corey’s team failed to “get out”?

  23. sadlyyes says:

    oh my so late at night,and im still thinking of that child being chased and frightened than killed in cold blood…justice may have eased this image..punishment might have prevented another Trayvon…rip TRay

  24. bettykath says:

    If I were going to do a b&e, I would wear a black hoodie, black pants, black gloves, black sneakers, wait until folks wouldn’t be at home (not 7pm Sunday), and wear black face to cover my ivory skin. I would not be wearing a grey hoodie, tan pants, no gloves, white sneakers at 7pm Sunday night.

    What matches Trayvon on that fateful night? The Black face. The Black face only.

    BS on criminally profiled. BS on “profiled”. Trayvon was racially profiled.

    • Dave says:

      I’d do it like most real burglars do. I’d do it in broad daylight, wearing nondescript clothes with a partner as a lookout/driver. I’d walk up to the front door, knock, and if there was no response force it open. Do a quick lookaround, race to the master bedroom, dump the drawers, flip the mattress, stick whatever cash, drugs, jewelery and handguns I found into a pillowcase or two, check the medicine cabinet in the bathroom and back out the front door, all in a couple of minutes.

  25. sadlyyes says:

    okay “imo” Dunn looks 20 to 25 years older than 45

    rode hard put away wet?

    • MedicineBear says:

      Rode hard, put away wet, packing heat to kill uppity thugs responsible for it.

      • pat deadder says:

        We don’t understand the mindset of this man.Why would he care that their music was loud he was only going to be there for a couple more minutes.Kids play their music loud.There wasn’t any level of tolerance by this adult let it go This loud music was so insignifigant in the scheme of things.I don’t get the gun situation either.Why are people in the U.S. so afraid and what is the obsession with guns.My friends and I have heard loud music coming from kids cars.We just say omg remember when our kids did that.I know it’s not just about music but people need to lighten up and be nicer.Just like fogen could have offered Trayvon a ride because it was raining.I don’t get it.

        • sadlyyes says:

          was that THE ONLY space at the convienence store,he could have MOVED his car
          sheesh!,this has got to STOP!!!

        • Olivia says:

          Did the SUV pull up and park beside Dunn, or did Dunn pull up and park beside the SUV?

          When did the playing of loud music begin

          • Olivia says:

            If Dunn pulled up beside the SUV while it was blasting music, I’d want to know if there were other parking spaces available.

            Don’t yet have a clear picture of the scene and events.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            dunn pulled up next to a SUV playing music which he promptly began to object to.

    • roderick2012 says:

      @sad, I was thinking the same thing when I first saw his pictures.

      I was reading the comment section on one of the articles about this case and someone suggested that he is a drug addict and he looks it.

  26. Big Willie says:

    I know God has a plan, but this is just too painful.

  27. Xena says:

    Michael Dunn’s full interview with police.

    • Malamiyya says:

      What a nice plump softspoken comfortable man! He was scared for his life! The guy in the back seat of the truck said he was going to kill him. He kept saying it. He showed him a shotgun to prove it and opened the door to get out. Dunn made the smooth dive for his gun he’d been dreaming about ever since he was a kid and came up firing. Sounds like a clear case of self-defense to me.

    • Boyd says:

      I think the guy is an alcoholic.

    • Olivia says:

      Wondering if the threat that he says he heard was from the music recording.

      Here’s some of the lyrics in “Kill that bitch” by “a Sound of Thunder”:

      Hurry up, kill that bitch for me
      Hurry up, kill that bitch for me

      Kill her, kill her
      Kill her, kill her
      Kill her, kill her
      Kill her, kill her

      You know you wanna
      Kill her, kill her
      Just do it for me
      Kill her, kill her
      Kill her, kill her

      You know I’m the one that you adore
      I’ve got more cojones than that whore
      We’ll always love each other right baby
      Just this once kill that bitch for me
      Just this once kill that bitch for me
      Just this once
      Kill her, kill her

      • Olivia says:

        OK – found the answer without having to listen to the interview again.

        He doesn’t know if the threats came from Jordan or the song lyrics.

        “Unsure whether he was hearing the music, now turned back up, or if it was the teen, he heard threats against his life and then saw the boy open the door to get out of the SUV, he said.”

        • Olivia says:

          During the latter part of the interview Dunn says:

          “They were threats of you’re dead, and you’re dead, bitch.” “That’s what keeps ringing through my mind.”

          Because he earlier said that he doesn’t know if he heard the threats from Jordan or the music, it would be interesting to know whether music CDs found in the SUV, if any, contain close to or exactly the same threats.

          If the music source was radio, what station was tuned to, and what song(s) were playing during the time frame of the shootings.

          Were the threats he heard similar, or the same as those in the song that the survivor’s say was playing at the time of the shooting?

      • cielo62 says:

        Olivia- tsk tsk. Just lyrics, but one of the many many reasons I hate rap.


      • fauxmccoy says:

        it boggles my mind that this music is considered for thugs … the same theme has been expressed in blues (leadbelly), roots country (johnny cash “cocaine blues”) up to rock (guns’n’roses “i used to love her, but had to kill her”) and no one says a word.

        as a musician, i’ll say that while rap or hip hop is not my favorite genre, but there are only 12 notes in a scale and only so many ‘themes’ to be explored. nothing produced today is new or novel, just modern variations on 12 notes and a handful of themes.

  28. Soulcatcher says:

    moved over from prior thread

    ****Okay, take a look at this cause I have been for the last hour.

    now i’m sure some have you have seen this……Scroll down to the pictures of the sherrif, wife, and baby, and compare them with the above video. Let me know if I should check myself in 72 hr watch

    • bettykath says:

      excerpt from Soulcatcher’s second link:

      UPDATE 7/26: Explanation of our information: After deep digging & gradual convincing, a family member of Officer Patrick Rehder’s became a source by hoping to extinguish this situation once & for all so that the scrutiny & chaos surrounding the individuals involved would stop. They envisioned having to go into hiding like George Zimmerman if someone did not answer to the conspiracies & skepticism. The family member confirmed in a phone call that they saw a text call log with the name “George” associated with it, time stamped 5:51PM eastern. Family member also confirmed phone records show a series of calls prior to 7/17 between the Officer & the same number labelled “George” in the phone.

  29. groans says:

    Juror B29, ‘Maddy,’ says ‘Zimmerman got away with murder’

    (And many more sites, too)

    The prosecution didn’t give Juror B29 what she needed to stand firm. And she didn’t have enough brains and/or guts to stand firm.

    This makes me sooooooooo sick!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It seems like the jury really didn’ t take the time to go in-depth into all the evidence either. No one really knew what they were doing. Probably led by the strong ones already convinced of self-defense.

      • Woow! says:

        The prosecution could have put a video of the entire thing in front of the jury and they would have still found him not guilty.

        Zimmerman could have told them out of his own mouth and they would have still found him not guilty.

        • sadlyyes says:

          agreed…rigged with the alpha peeps and one omega

          seems the juror with atty husband,husband knew mom
          also very conveinent

          • Trained Observer says:

            WHAT? Has it been established that the juror’s attorney husband personally knows MOM … or just of him, as in being vaguely familiar with names in any Central Florida lawyer’s association directory? Or seeing MOM’s mug on TV every night for a year?
            There’s a big difference.

      • Girlp says:

        Remember according to B37 they discussed evidence not presented. I’m thinking there were 3 stealth jurors not 1. I hope this does not happen with the Davis case. I’m trying to find a way to be optimistic about Jordan’s case.

      • groans says:

        I agree.

        B29’s statement, “I held out until the end” sounds like a really sick, bad joke, to me. What was it – 16 or 18 hours of deliberations?? That is NOTHING! Most courts won’t even entertain a “hung jury” conclusion after that short a deliberation time.

        So, no wonder she can’t eat or sleep and thinks she owes Trayvon’s parents an apology! She totally caved!!

        I suspect that her main problem was she couldn’t formulate arguments by analyzing/scrutinizing the jury instructions (law) and applying specific facts to the given law. I mean, truly, most people aren’t adept at applying facts to law … even some who go to law school! 🙂

        That’s why the trial lawyers are SUPPOSED to do that for them: Give them something to hang their hats on, as I like to say.

        IMO, many/most jurors make their decisions fundamentally from their hearts/guts (which is why they can be so dang unpredictable!). And there’s little doubt in my mind that B37 and two others did.

        Yes, B29 will indeed “carry Trayvon on her back” for a very long time, if not forever. Because she acted against her better judgment, her common sense, her heart, and her conscience.

        It still makes me soooooooo sick! More sickening fodder for my book, “No Heroes in North/Central Florida.”

      • It seems like the jury really didn’ t take the time to go in-depth into all the evidence either. No one really knew what they were doing. Probably led by the strong ones already convinced of self-defense.

        These women knew what they were doing and are not/were not stupid. Sexism allows women to get away with not taking responsibility for their own actions. B29 (Maddy) did not want to take responsibility and wants to have it both ways. B29 even states that she feels that Z is guilty of killing Trayvon Martin. It was already established that Z “killed” Trayvon Martin. The question is whether he is guilty of murder or manslaughter. B29 dodged the issue to have it both ways. B29 abdicated her responsibility and wants to be exonerated in the eyes of the public now that she sees she is not a hero to world. The racist power structure wants to comfort her and will quickly attempt to scold the black and pro-justice community for not comforting also.

      • Olivia says:

        “. . . jury really didn’t take the time to go in-depth into all the evidence”:

        My thought, too. B37 said that what was given to them was very disorganized.

        16 hours total, right? Corey spoke at the presser as though the time they spent deliberating was somehow further proof, from smiling Corey’s point of view, that the jurors worked hard.

        IIRC, Fred expected more than 3 days. I wish they had taken more time – at least another 1/2 day.

        Fred’s experience has been that when jurors ask judges to deliberate over dinner, the judges usually say yes.

        But, why deliberate over dinner? Why not take a break, relax and enjoy the meal?

        Self-imposed deadline of Saturday night?

        Did somebody say, “If we deliberate over dinner we can render our verdict tonight and go home”?

        “Let’s beat the clock!”

        “The courtroom closes at 10 pm.”

        “We can hurry up and beat the clock if we don’t stop deliberations to have dinner!”

      • Tzar says:

        there is no way in hell they went through the evidence
        it took several people weeks to decipher the clubhouse video alone

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wow …. it takes some brass for B29 to say she feels the same pain as Trayvon’s mother.

      For openers, it’s not true … none of us can possibly know the pain Trayvon’s mother endures.

      Secondly, if she got the picture on what Fogen did (and a person would need to be dumber than a box of rocks not to), why didn’t she stand up for a manslaughter conviction or a hung jury?

      Me thinks B29’s busily trying to rewrite how she feels now that she’s realizing neither side wants anything to do with someone so wishy-washy.

      She may want to consider schlepping back to Chicago. She’s now a bad fit in Sanford no matter how nyone looks at what she did or failed to do.

      • dianetrotter says:

        She said the way the law was “read” to her. Did you get that? Why didn’t she read it herself? Why didn’t she wait on clarification of manslaughter.

        • groans says:

          Good points – especially the latter.

          • Trained Observer says:


            (The jjudge can always be asked for clarification. And when instructions are made crystal clear, there shouldn’t be that much need for clarification.

            All this on-air chatter from B29 about carrying Trayvon on her back offends me no end. She knows what she should have done, and she knows she didn’t do it. Now is a poor time for her to be sniveling about it. She had her chance to do right. )

      • groans says:

        Agree. It’s both insulting to Trayvon’s mother and disingenuous at the same time.

        Just like her statement, “He got away with murder.” WTF??? He only got away with murder because YOU LET HIM !!!!

        You’re right. Neither “camp” is likely to have any respect for her, no matter what she says. But the killer’s camp will enjoy some laughs and can pat themselves on the back. Sickening.

      • Olivia says:

        Yes, B-29 didn’t last to the finish line.

        Nelson would know the possible effects of a long day of deliberations on jurors.

        Why stop at deliberating all day, at dinner, and for hours after dinner?

        Why not go until 3 am?

        • bettykath says:

          Why not quit for the night? Get a good night’s sleep. No court on Sunday? Visit the spa, get a massage. Reconvene with a fresh mind and review again.

          • Olivia says:

            Good question. Why not be sensitive to the need of jurors to take a break from deliberations?

            For all of Nelson’s putting on of concern for the well being of jurors, her letting them work the entire day and into the night without a break for dinner shows the opposite.

    • Kelly Payne says:

      Actually looking at all the evidence would have helped. surely she was smart enough to know he aimed directly at trayvon’s chest to kill him.

    • groans says:

      I managed to get a chuckle from a comment to today’s OS article:

      If Gladys Zimmerman had a daughter, she’d look like b29

      Source:,0,3645360,full.story (as of 10:35 pm EDT).

      Author: Natt Turner at 10:48 PM July 25, 2013

  30. BillT says:

    where on earth did that juror get the idea that manslaughter had to have INTENT to kill as part of the equation…..MOST manslaughter cases involved ACCIDENTAL deaths, drunk driving car wrecks as a prime example.

    • sadlyyes says:

      if she would have just used her common sense,as the pros had urged she coulda been a heroine,instead she has none and went with the pack,no backbone,no convictions,and then NO conviction! very sad indeed…hurt multitudes of people

    • groans says:

      I agree with your comment, BillT. But just to take it even a step further:

      Here in NC a drunk driver who causes an accident resulting in a fatality is not charged with MERE manslaughter – he’s charged with 2nd Degree Murder … and they get convictions for M2!

      But, of course, intentionally shooting a kid in the heart in Florida is a different story….

      • groans says:

        Or, I should clarify: “… intentionally shooting a BLACK kid in the heart in Florida is a different story….”

    • Dave says:

      West, in his opening statement as well as Osterman, the state’s firearms expert, and the defense’s Use of Force expert all made it very clear that the defendant’s gun could only fire if someone intentionly pulled the trigger. How could she miss that?

  31. Trained Observer says:

    Does Dunn have representation yet?

    • diary73 says:

      At the tune of about $7500.00 monthly, paid by his parents.

    • aussie says:

      Yeah, he’s on his I think second lawyer and third judge.

      There is some hope for a conviction, because his charges were set up by a grand jury. Of course they didn’t hear anything from the defence side for that, so a trial jury battered with months of O”Mara style poisoning might come to a different decision.

  32. degraveegmailcom says:

    Just saw a snippet of juror B29 on CNN europe saying george zimmerman is guilty but he can’t get away from god.
    She looks like a little girl.
    No wonder they left her on the jury.

    • sadlyyes says:

      yup,easily swayed,she had a chance to be MEANINGFUL in this world,but she is just a breeder of children with no sense of the IMPORTANCE of the task she was given…T o be a truth teller,and keeper of the LIGHT! we are plunged back into darkness,due to her insignificance

      • Thrace says:

        I was thinking that way too and didn’t want to say it. She was the youngest on that jury and not very worldly compared to the others. They were able to snowball her into coming around to their way of thinking……But I would love to know who were the other 2 who voted guilty at first and why they folded.

        • sadlyyes says:

          she was not up to the task,and failed miserably,she knew he was guilty,and didnt have the chops to follow her own common sense. a simple ,i will never agree to aquittal,would have spared millions of people more greif…IMO

          • MedicineBear says:

            I agree. Juror B29’s thought on CNN europe saying “george zimmerman is guilty but he can’t get away from God” is also an indictment of herself. She knew the right thing to do and didn’t. She let a child predator get away with murder — and to embolden other racist vigilante nuts with guns to do more of the same.

            It takes a village. She let her children, her village, and future generations down. SHE can’t get away from God for that. Even worse — SHE had about 3 weeks and 13 hours to PREMEDITATE the travesty she wrought.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        You are painting with a way too wide a brush for my taste. Just a Breeder? Do you even know her personal circumstances? You don’t.
        I’ll stay in the darkness and ignore your judgemental comments.

        • sadlyyes says:

          just my” imo” and imos are like assholes everyone has one

          she blew it,then left it to G-d
          sorta like Fogen,it was G-ds will
          how conveinent

        • groans says:

          @ Deborah Moore – Are you the WATB now? (If I may borrow your term of endearment that you taught us a couple days ago. :-))

        • bettykath says:

          Thank you, Deborah. I agree. A very wide brush being used on someone of whom we really know little. imo, she didn’t have what she needed to sustain her argument. She was one against 3 and then 5. It takes a strong, self-confident person to stand up to this.

          I don’t know why she didn’t study the manslaughter writeup herself. Maybe someone took control of the instructions. Maybe lawyer’s lady insisted on her interpretation. Lots of possibilities.

        • cielo62 says:

          Deborah- EIGHT KIDS?!! Yeah, I’d say a breeder with no use for responsible birth control. Few people can afford that many kids. And she isn’t a professional that beings in tons of money, either. After 20 years, I see that a large number of kids is more compatible with poor education, poverty and neglect. This lady had the RESPONSIBILITY of seeing justice gets applied, but she took the path of least resistance. Which seems to be the case after having 8 kids as well. I have zero respect nor sympathy for her. She should feel burning shame that she is making this world a hell hole for her kids and everybody’s kids.


          • sadlyyes says:

            eloquently stated,wow..and if she WASNT up to the task,take a pass,and tell them ,i have 8 kids,and cant be away from home,for UNLIMITED time..she screwed up bigtime

      • MedicineBear says:

        Sadly, yes. Spot on.

  33. Thrace says:

    Dunn is a Paultard that explains alot right there for me.

    Brevard County Ron Paul Meetup Group

    Palm Bay, FL
    68 Ron Paul Supporters

    This group is for admirers of Congressman Ron Paul and those who are interested in seeing the United States of America return to Constitutionally limited government, sound mon…

    Check out this Meetup Group →

    Another bigoted crackpot with oddball ideology and guns.

    • BillT says:

      WHY try to inject silly politics into this…Ron Paul supports the constitution of the USA, very strange people can find fault with that reality…..

      • Woow! says:

        Ron Paul is also a racist bigot. You should read some of his pamphlets and other writings.

        • BillT says:

          a racist that treated poor black women FREE in his medical practice…you are basing that opinion on words someone else wrote ONE time in some newsletter that Paul may have not even read even though his name was indeed on it……

          • Woow! says:

            I am capable of forming my own opinion and I don’t know anything about what someone else wrote. The news letter letter I read had Ron Paul as the author. He talked about a separation of the races among some other not so nice things.

            You on the other hand is repeating his talking point from the campaign which is total BS.

          • BillT says:

            out of respect to this forum i have no further comment.

          • Woow! says:

            Sorry you feel that way BillT…after reading my comment it sound ed like I called your opinion BS ….

            My bad, I was referring to Ron Paul explanation for the pamphlets as BS no your comment 🙂

  34. Rachael says:

    See here is where I have a problem when it comes to guns. As far as I’m concerned, if you have a gun – that is premeditation RIGHT there.

    Short of when I was a kid and my daddy would take me out shooting bottles and cans, I was always told that you do not pull a gun for ANY reason than to kill so you are not killed first. You do NOT have a gun to wave it around to scare someone, you do NOT have a gun so you can shoot someone in the leg because they might shoot you and get you in the chest, that one shot might be the ONLY shot you have. You do NOT shoot someone because they gave you a broken nose. You do NOT shoot someone (or even at or near) because you are mad. You shoot them with the intent to kill because if you don’t they will kill you first.

    Therefore, AFAIC, having a gun IS premeditation to kill. Even with a hunting gun, you don’t intend to go out there and MISS a deer, your intent is food for winter.

    And this is where I run into problems with guns that I have a difficult time resolving.

    • Rachael says:

      IOW, having a gun is premeditation PERIOD. You don’t buy a gun with no intention of using it. You may hope you are never in a situation where you don’t have to, but if you have one, that is intention right there because you better NOT have one if you have no intent to use it – or you could end up the dead one.

      Better not to have one at all AFAIC.

      • racerrodig says:

        I’ve been saying that about Fogen since April 2012. Fogen was of the ilk “….I have a gun, ergo I need to go Target (someone) It looks like Dung is the same thing……gotta use my pistol, or why did I buy it.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Rachael: IOW, having a gun is premeditation PERIOD.

        True that.

        I have seen posters on other message boards question why George didn’t aim to wound not kill Trayvon that night and some gun nut responds that you ALWAYS AIM to KILL never to wound.

        There you have it!!

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I here you loud and clear and I agree.
      Owning a gun, if you’re not living in the woods and need to kill game to eat, is premeditated Something.
      I have a very large hound dog who acts as my alarm and weapon.
      Also, he enjoys taking milk and cookie naps with me.

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • Tzar says:

      but but profits…the economy…freedom of freedom

      • Rachael says:

        I just woke up and watched this before emptying my bladder. I will always do that from now on before coming here – or put a towel down on my chair. This made me laugh so hard. Not sure what it has to do with GZ, guns and premeditation, but it was still hilariously funny.

        • Tzar says:

          Not sure what it has to do with GZ, guns and premeditation

          The relationship is: profits takes precedence over everything, including the safety of the public
          These syg statutes exist for one reason: they sell more guns

      • nocamo33 says:

        Hilarious! And I am in (American) finance.

    • Dave says:

      I own guns. I also own fire extinguishers and have seatbelts in my car. I have them all for the same essential purpose which is to preserve my life. I don’t “premeditate” killing assailants any more than I “premeditate” putting out a fire in my kitchen or crashing my car. I’m just prepared.

      • roderick2012 says:

        @ Dave

        But do you go see ‘suspicious’ people everywhere you go?

        Do you seek out conflict over trivial matters such as loud music in a PUBLIC place because you have mechanical courage (guns)?

        If not I don’t believe the statement was speaking to you.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          i believe you are getting to the heart of the matter.
          — there are people (such as dave and i) who do own guns and hope that we never need to point one toward a human being.

          — there are other gun owners, who either alone or with their like minded friends, engage in rabid self defense fantasy thoughts.

          there is a distinct difference.

  35. Elijah says:

    Will this be tried in Jacksonville where the crime occurred? Will this also be a 6 person jury? If so, better chance at a more diverse jury, perhaps..

  36. PiranhaMom says:

    It’s Florida.

    I have no faith.

    Prosecution can fail to present critical evidence (like Bernie failed to show evidence of Zimmerman grabbing BOTH of Trayvon’s shirts prior to making the kill shot – both forensic evidence of the matching holes in the stretched shirts, and Zimmerman’s video-ed re-plays of the shooting, noting his clenched left fist in the grasping motion held close to Zimmerman’s chest, showing ILLEGAL DETENTION OF A MINOR that prevented Trayvon from escaping).

    Judge can then issue faulty instructions, including SYG.

    Dunn goes free.

    Gun nuts and racists rejoice.

    Killings continue.

    • Romaine says:

      piranhamom, you said a mouthful, SYG that was not to be included as an instruction;, but as info to consider simply for review during deliberation by the jurors when deciding the verdict…that is what mantei (sp) was arguing to not have included and the (hag) JN as the cth refers to her went against the pros and included it on that basis alone. How it was included in the instruction is beyond me…it should never have been mentioned since the defendant declined his right to a SYG hearing in prior weeks and months…as I stated in a previous thread OM used WEST to deliberately slide that in during the instruction hearing to achieve his GOAL of combining the SYG clause and TRIAL with the self defense TRIAL… IANAL so I may have the trial and hearing stuff twisted but you all know where i’m going…

      • Romaine says:

        also did anyone notice how OM always blamed any and all errors on west and his lack of knowing / their lack of communication / with one another to the (HAG) as the CTH refers to her. and she just gobbled it up, like west was a newbie to the law and courts. how the disrespect was excused as, it wasn’t exposed to the jurors, and as long as they maintained their professionalism in the presence of said jurors it was all good. it’s just a day in court ya know and tempers flair…he (west) just made a mistake, he was angry, his daughters were just being uncontrollable teens…what is a parent to do…Yes I am ranting right now…that nasty wig wearing (hag) as the cth calls her, flirting with every older witness, lawyer, and male that came into her court room needs to step down and pray for the injustice she allowed to be displayed in her court room…

        • Romaine says:

          I’m also peeved about the defenses forensics guy and his claim of the ability of an individual being able to take his/her hand and grab ones heart and squeeze it and simply move them at will…as om said in his closing argument “seriously”…what heart attach victim just drives his/herself to the ER in so much pain when his/her heart is constricting to the point of death…if that is the eff’g case then the majority of heart attach victims should be alive and jogging…the BS we received during this trial is simply that BS…Really, I want to see them open someone up with a punctured and collapsed lung, bullet though the heart and walk that person around the damn park like its normal, yelling ow,ow, you got me or something….bulllshit

          • Romaine says:

            I AM really pissed to the utmost of piss’divity…not a word but i’m using it…I would have hung that jury like the pics used by the racist flaunting this dead young mans death photo’s…they would have escorted me from the court room. there would have been not one juror to change my mind..they could threaten me with death and the death of my children and I would have said kill me believe I won’t leave this room dead alone…and you all would be discussing another case of murder…that 5 to one…hanging my pic next to TBM…If TBM had been outside of my door crying for his life, trust and believe I would have been more of a man than John GOODE or any of his neighbors…male or female…I would have stepped out and STOPPED the supposed fight…..and I AM A WOMAN….and yes I would have been cussing and bring attention to myself….straight up Ghetto…wtf are you doing, get the F*** off him…touching and grabbing…trying to see every damn thing to break up the damn supposed fight…Jeremy saw the gun that is why he said tell them to send them now, the panic in his tone is most telling, anyone figure out why Goode and Jeremy married immediately after this incident??? anyone question why the entire 911 call has not been presented into evidence…so much was said during the 911 call, why was the i’m begging you never addressed, or the get ooooof, or the i don’t know, simply the howl….what made the howling death scream more important than the utterances we all could hear loud and clear, that the defendant never claimed he stated…these are the questions that haunt me…

          • MDH says:

            Their expert was a pathologist whose expertise was tracking gunshot wounds.

            An attorney with some knowledge of trauma would have carved this self-centered prick a new asshole.

            One of his statements based on bad science was that there would still be oxygen in the blood cells.

            It ignores the fact that the massive hole created by a frangible bullet causes an instant drop in blood pressure such that the shot person blacks out. Without pressure, there can be no delivery of any oxygen in red blood cells to brain tissue.

            In that state of shock, higher order brain functions are not possible.

            The possible movements would be autonomous reflex.

            IMO, it was a big mistake for the prosecution to not have had a trauma surgeon testify on their behalf.

          • Richard Carmona would have been an excellent and unimpeachable witness for the prosecution. He is a trauma surgeon and the former Surgeon General of the United States.

        • type1juve says:

          Romaine, rant on! You’re expressing the frustration that many of us feel.

  37. Thrace says:

    CNN is having a piece of Jordan’s murder next. Wolf is filling in for Anderson – taped interview with the parents. Wolf and his panel including Crump just discussed B29’s comments. So maybe Wolf will be asking the panel questions about Jordan too.

  38. Malisha says:

    If he can get six racists or even five racists and a cowardly fool, he’s golden.

    • racerrodig says:

      “I was so scared……I almost pissed my pants”

      The new FL defense line.

      In see an new juror spoke up on Fogen today. Looks like B37 is nothing but a racist bully for sure. She says Fogen got away with murder.

      • lady2soothe says:

        Juror B29 admitted she was the juror who originally wanted to convict Zimmerman of second-degree murder. “I was the juror that was going to give them the hung jury. I fought to the end” and yet she gave in to her spinelessness, simply because she didn’t have the courage to stand HER ground and convict him. If she thought he was guilty, she should have said so when it mattered not as an afterthought for a TV interview.

        Juror B29 claims “I’m hurting just as much as Trayvon’s mother” Yeah right…. NO lady, your 8 kids were safe at home during the trial but now they’re fair game for any wannabe cop because YOU and your 5 cohorts let a murderer walk free giving any ole’ somebody with a concealed weapon the right to claim self-defense while roaming the streets profiling, stalking, confronting, aiming, pulling the trigger and shooting a bullet deep into the heart of another adolescent’s torso.

        Juror B29, until you’ve lost one of your own children YOU will NEVER “hurt just as much as Trayvon’s mother.”

        • Tee says:

          I know we want someone to blame but you can’t blame this woman. The SYG law was used that’s what the judge wrote for them. So if you want to blame someone blame the crapy job the prosecution done. Had they really tried by preping their witnesses, putting on a rebuttal case, and playing Trayvon voice from another recording we would have had a guilty verdict. You can’t do a half ass job and expect the verdict to go in your favor. They knew what they were doing that’s why Corey didn’t prosecute this case herself.

          • lady2soothe says:

            @ Tee….. I most certainly can and do blame Juror B29 for her flimsy attempt to deflect the blame of her pathetic weak-willed need to acquiesce to the pressure exerted by other jurors convincing her to change her mind and vote

            “not guilty”

            because she “didn’t realize how important she would be to the case.” She also doubted the case should have even been brought to trial, calling it a

            “publicity stunt.”

            Let’s see, she was chosen from a pool of 500 to sit on a high profile case with ONLY 5 other women and she considered her participation an “UNIMPORTANT publicity stunt?” She held the power in her hands and she chose not to use it, instead, she allowed peer pressure to dictate, allowing GZ to walk.

            Juror B29 needs to take responsibility for her decision, own it and live with the consequences of her submissiveness. Her conscious has gotten the best of her and she’s looking for sympathizers to help justify her compromise of justice and convince the viewing audience it wasn’t her fault. IMHO she’s a coward who didn’t exercise her rights to freedom of speech or the right to agree or disagree.

            Juror B29 needs to realize, she too will be subjected to:

            You can’t get away from God. And at the end of the day, he’s going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with.

            (Hopefully not) but maybe someday in the future one of her son’s will be walking to the store, is racially profiled and killed due to his dark skin. Then and ONLY then will she know and feel the “hurt just as much as Trayvon’s mother.”

            I wholly agree with the remainder of your comment.

        • Fascinating and frightening interview because the prosecution was not required to prove that Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon.

          The instruction said the prosecution had to prove that he intended to commit the act that resulted in Trayvon’s death and that his intentional act evinced a depraved indifference to human life.

          She misunderstood the instruction and a remorseless child killer is free to kill again.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Sounds to me someone, whether the jurors, or prior to trial convince b29 this case was a sham. If this is what was discussed in the deliberations, the other 5 for sure were influential in changing her vote.

        • ks says:

          Yes! That’s what I was trying to say yesterday. She was thinking of a M1 definition which was wrong and not the instructions.

          It’s also stunning that she claimed she didn’t have the evidence to convict but in fact first voted for M2 and then was “talked” out of it based on her confusion or something else.

  39. fauxmccoy says:


  40. betterhalf says:

    i m o


    W`ELL CO



    • Drew says:

      They’ll say the gun from the SUV isn’t visible on cameras.

      • betterhalf says:

        yup but dunns gun will be aN THAts a PISTOL NOT A long baRRRELED SHOTGAn with a LONG STOCK HAndle

        ‘aAtaHERES LIKELEY TO BE MORE THAn one cct
        v aNGLE

        PLUS CCT

      • Xena says:

        @Drew. Right, or the jury might take the direction that the jury took in the Dooley case, which was to say that although Dooley was walking away, the victim felt threatened and had the right to attack Dooley. It will be a simple switch in the Dunn case to say he was justified to shoot because he (Dunn) felt threatened.

        • aussie says:

          Let him try to explain what was so threatening about them driving away which is when he got out to let off a few more rounds.

          • Xena says:


            Let him try to explain what was so threatening about them driving away which is when he got out to let off a few more rounds.

            You’re using common sense. That seems to lack in Florida cases. By the same token, GZ was not asked by Serino neither Singleton why he didn’t walk away when Trayvon purportedly asked him if he had a problem. GZ stood face-to-face with Trayvon reaching in his pockets instead.

  41. Two sides to a story says:

    Hard to fathom that Dunn-gggg has any possibility at all of getting off. Everything points to an unhinged, angry suspect with little or no regard of human life..

    But I’m not holding my breath in another FL case. I can see that anything can and will happen there.Fortunately for the victim’s family, this case hasn’t gotten as much air time. That should help.

  42. betterhalf says:

    13 PLUS ONE HA
    vent reaD RTICLE YET,

  43. Girlp says:

    Shooting a gun at someone is intent, he did not fire into the air or aim his gun above the SUV he fired at Jordon not in self defense but in anger he intended to kill the teen. This is first degree, I also beleived in reality Zimmerman’s case for first degree. So jury selection is going to be very important in this case and the prosecution has to prevent SYG language to find it’s way into jury instructions….If Zimmerman had been convicted I’m betting this guy would plead, the witnesses saw what happened in this case it was daylight and people stood and watched unlike Zimmerman’s case the altercation (if you can call it that) was static, Jordan was in the SUV, Dunn got out of his SUV. The kids did not have a gun, however I have noticed others in Florida have gotten away with murder using SYG simply because they “felt”, they were in danger.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I have felt all along that Angela Corey under-charged Zimmerman, the stalker who got out of his vehicle with his gun ready to pull the trigger. If anything, Zimmerman’s shooting was far more premeditated than Dunn’s, which was plenty enough to warrant the M1 charge.

      • concernedczen says:

        Yes, Trained Observer.

        So many want to pretend that M2 was an overcharge, when the truth is that Zimmerman is probably guilty of M1.

        He shot a kid in his heart as he screamed and begged for his life.

      • gblock says:

        But part of the issue is that, like it or not, it’s all in what you can prove. Even under better circumstances in the handling of the case, it probably would have been difficult to convince the jury of the details about what happened immediately before the shooting well enough to prove murder 1, since nobody but Fogen and Trayvon was able to see or hear the incident well enough to be sure.

        The advantage in proving the charges for Dunn are first, there were witnesses who saw the incident, and second, the fact that Dunn continued to shoot at the vehicle as it was driving away from the scene (and that clear forensic evidence as well as eyewitness reports show this) makes it harder to deny Dunn’s intent.

  44. roderick2012 says:

    Let me get this straight–one count of first degree murder and three counts of attempted first degree murder but no death penalty?

    There’s something wrong with this picture.

    • Drew says:

      How is this not a hate crime?

      • racerrodig says:

        He admitted in some many words he hates loud music. He hates black kids, maybe not as much, but hey, it’s FL. anything goes.

        He just left……no call…nothing !!

    • Malisha says:

      “You’re not going to talk to me like that”?

      So he’s entitled. Entitled to make sure nobody lives who might talk to him in a way he doesn’t like. Yup, he needs to learn how to be talked to in a way he doesn’t like.

    • Thrace says:

      I was reading over the aggravating factors for FL DP and I only see one that applies – he put others in danger. Since I don’t know much about Dunn it’s hard to judge what could the DA could have used as mitigating factors to outweigh the one aggravating one.

      • roderick2012 says:

        @Thrace, that just shows how f-ed up FL law.

        Why not look at the circumstances surrounding the killing- it occurred in a public place and it began as an argument over loud music.


        It didn’t occur on Dunn’s private property and if he had waited in his car a few more minutes then none of this would have happened–that sounds familiar, doesn’t it?


    • nocamo33 says:

      There’s a whole lotta something’s wrong with the big picture.

  45. MDH says:

    In a reasonable world, Dunn is guilty.

    In the space lawyer cadet mind of B37, Dunn will walk due to being outnumbered 5:1 and that five did not cow to lord master white man after he gave them a command.

    Sorry for the sarcasm, but that is the lesson I got from the Trayvon trial.

    Maybe this venue will produce a reasonable jury.

    • Drew says:

      That’s pretty much what I got out of it, too.

      Oh but you left out the BLAKK THUGZ IN CAR part. They all probably had guns, then ate them piece by piece before cops arrive. Those THUGZ have such bad dental work as it is.

      • MDH says:

        I am having a real hard time dealing with this.

        I presently live in multicultural Montgomery County MD and, for the life of me, can not comprehend any one of these fears based on music, clothes, dentition, head covering etc… foisted by the Zimmerbots.

        To use some vernacular:

        Have they done bumped their heads?

        • betterhalf says:

          ve they dunn bumped there heaDS

        • Small world. I went to Walter Johnson High School.

          • MDH says:

            I have lived in Silver Spring and Wheaton-Glenmont since I moved to Montgomery County in 2004. I go by WJHS on the way to the Montgomery Mall.

            Sometimes a ride my bike on either the Rock Creek or Sligo Creek trails.

            I could not see creeps like GZ or Dunn doing this without at least an AK-47.

            When I lived in Arlington, I used to lap East Potomac Park with my road bicycle. In the summer, it is hundreds of shined up cars with loud music blasting and thousands of young boys who look like Trayvon. I never felt in danger.

          • cielo62 says:

            MDH- I grew up in Havre de Grace, MD. I had all colors of friends.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • Xena says:

      Dunn did not think he should have been arrested because he claimed self-defense. He wanted to walk based on his word alone. When he realized he was being charged with murder, he decided to stop talking and wanted an attorney.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Well, it worked for Fogen didn’t it?

        This tight little Sanford circle that thought it was so wise to help Fogen get off will now get to see how the aftermath works for Dunn in Jax.

        Hopefully, Angela Corey will have learned a couple of things, too.

        • Wanna says:

          I think AC is well aware that she is under the watchful eyes of the Leatherheads, ready and willing to cry foul. If one think for one moment that this blog is not a thorn in her side, wrong answer.

    • Thrace says:

      I believe this will be a 12 person jury. So that may make a difference vs Zim’s 6 person jury. Chances of a more diverse jury are better and it’ll be harder for one or two jurors to influence the rest of the panel.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        only if t he defendant requests it, thrace. florida law is such that only death penalty cases must be 12 member juries UNLESS the defendant requests it.

        i cannot imagine any defense lawyer asking for a 12 member jury in florida for just the reasons you cite. this issue really bothers me.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, I believe 1st degree murder cases bring a 12-member jury in Florida. Even if the defendant is a minor (or at the time of the crime) being tried as an adult.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          only for death penalty cases in florida. they took this to the supreme court in 1970 in order to ‘make juries more efficient’.

          the dunn case, while 1st degree, is not requesting the death penalty, hence a 6 person jury, unless the defense requests otherwise and they have no incentive to do so.

          from the orlando sentinel

          Florida statute dictates that six people serve on juries in criminal trials, except in cases in which the death penalty is being sought. In those cases, a 12-member jury is seated. Connecticut, Indiana, and Louisiana have similar systems.

          • Trained Observer says:

            I served on a 12-member jury in a 1989 Florida 1st degree murder case. The defendant was a minor being tried as an adult, and both sides apparently wanted to load the panel with women.

            Yes, DP was on the table, and that’s one reason we never considered conviction on M1. We did convict on manslaughter and the kid ended up doing nearly two decades of his 25-year sentence, with time off for good behavior.

            II don’t know about this business of a 12-member jury being seated only at the request of the defense. That never came up in any of the post-trial publicity that I saw.

    • Malisha says:

      Your sarcasm is well merited and appropriately applied.

      I would add a “tow” after that cow, though. It’s a sacred cow.

    • cielo62 says:

      Well, it isn’t in Sanford, THAT’S a good thing. Unfortunately it’s still in Florida…

      • Mirre says:

        It is a solid case. Two additional witnesses of the shooting that back up the three kids in the car, including what Dunn said to Jordan, before he started shooting.
        Two additional witnesses, that back up the three kids at the other location. The kids never left the immediate vicinity of the car.
        All the witnesses tell the same story. Jordan and Dunn had some kind of verbal argument. Last thing Jordan said was “fuck it let’s go”. According to the three kids in the car Dunn said ” you are talking to me?” before he grabbed his gun and started shooting. The two other witness heard Dunn say ” you don’t talk to me like that”. Dunn first shot out of his window, then got out of his car and continued shooting at the car. Two bullets entered from the back, one continued through the car and hit the driver seat visor. Three bullets were lodged in the front passenger door. The other kids were extremely lucky.

        • cielo62 says:

          Mirre- I thought Trayvon’s case was string, too. Racism in Florida is stronger.


          • amsterdam1234 says:

            I was thrown out of wordpress, and it used my old user name.
            Maybe I am to optimistic, but there are 5 witnesses to the event who heard and saw everything, and they all say the same. There was a verbal exchange. Nobody saw Jordan trying to get out of the car. Nobody saw a gun, no gun was found. The Durango was moving away from Dunn while he was shooting. Dunn was heard giving a reason why he was shooting, and it wasn’t because he was afraid.
            There is not one witness, that backs up Dunn’s claims.
            But it is Florida.

        • nocamo33 says:

          And if these young men, who had every right to defend themselves were armed and shot back, Dunn who has a 40% chance of walking however you look at it (granted right off the bat), would then have a 110% chance of walking. SMH.

      • Tee says:

        There are worst places in Florida than Sanford trust me, Sanford is just the tip of the iceberg. I was born and raised there.

    • roderick2012 says:

      A good question for the State to ask is—if any of the occupants in the SUV had a gun why didn’t they return fire?

      • Xena says:

        @roderick2012. But then the defense will argue that all Dunn needed was a reasonable fear and, although he took time to go into the glove compartment, get the gun, and rack up a round, he didn’t have to wait for them to shoot first. They might even argue that because he fired at the SUV, it prevented them from firing back.

        So, we come full circle like in GZ’s case where the defense argued that the next head slam could have killed him — in complete disregard that GZ said his gun was exposed because he moved his head off the concrete.

        • roderick2012 says:

          Dunn shouldn’t be able to use the ‘reasonable fear’ argument because he obviously lied about a gun being pointed at him because he WASN’T in fear for his life before he shot at the vehicle.

          Just like GZ’s lies about his head having been slammed onto the concrete sidewalk multiple times and being punched 15-20 were obvious exaggerations so he could justify murdering Trayvon in cold blood.

          • Xena says:

            @roderick2012. To the police, as is seen in the video of his interview, Dunn claimed that his fear was based on hearing, “Kill the bitch.”

            Keep in mind that the Dooley jury decided that David James believed that Dooley was a threat, justifying him attacking Dooley from behind as Dooley walked back to his house. Scary Black men is what gets Black defendants convicted when the victim is White, and White or White Hispanic defendants, acquitted when the victim is Black.

          • roderick2012 says:

            “To the police, as is seen in the video of his interview, Dunn claimed that his fear was based on hearing, “Kill the bitch.” “
            That sounds ‘suspiciously’ like George’s claim that Trayvon uttered ‘you’re going to die tonight mo-fo’

            Let’s bring some common sense to Dunn’s supposed scenario (lie). If he that ‘threat’ was spoken why didn’t he run into the store for safety and immediately call the police and report the threat?

            But just like George Dunn’s actions don’t match the scenario of the alleged events nor do Dunn’s actions correspond to those of any rational human being.

            I hope that the State in the Dunn case brings out that Dunn was probably drunk when the incident occurred because he was on his way back from his son’s wedding reception when they stopped at the store to buy some more booze.

            I thought that the State would have called Joe Oliver (George’s Alcoholic Anonymous sponsor) to the stand to establish that George had fallen off the wagon and that he was probably drunk the night he murdered Trayvon hence the slurred speech during the NEN call.

            They could have also established a more solid motive for the shooting—George’s life was spirally out of control—he had allowed his friends and family to throw him a graduation party although he knew he didn’t have enough credits to pass, and he was about to be evicted which fed into his need to be the community savior the night he murdered Trayvon. George needed the ego boost of having caught ‘one of those who always got away’ and he probably would have received a reprieve on his imminent eviction.

            “Keep in mind that the Dooley jury decided that David James believed that Dooley was a threat, justifying him attacking Dooley from behind as Dooley walked back to his house. Scary Black men is what gets Black defendants convicted when the victim is White, and White or White Hispanic defendants, acquitted when the victim is Black.”

            I agree but in this case Dunn initiated the threat by leaving the safety of his vehicle and walking to another vehicle to argue over the volume of the music.

            I hope that the State asks the other witnesses if the volume of the music was excessively loud. I doubt that it was but it was to Dunn because he was drunk and approaching the hangover stage.

            With that said the fact that Dunn will get a six person jury like George it’s a strong chance that it could be all white and acquit him of murder because he was being disrespected by a couple of thugs.

          • Xena says:

            @roderick2012. According to things on his FB page, Dunn adheres to sovereign citizenship ideology. I see sovereign citizenship persuasion in reaching the Zimmerman verdict and have been working on writing an article about it. This goes much deeper than SYG law. They are using it as a testing ground to render legislated law of no effect on sovereign citizens.

        • roderick2012 says:

          The problem with that mindset is that most normal SOBER people would never have initiated a conflict by stepping out of their vehicle to argue with others over something as trivial as loud music while they were waiting on someone to return to the vehicle they were in to be taken home just because they had mechanical courage (a gun).

          What ticks me off is Florida law allows aggressors to become victims whenever it suits them especially if the other person is dead and there are no witnesses.

          • Xena says:


            What ticks me off is Florida law allows aggressors to become victims whenever it suits them especially if the other person is dead and there are no witnesses.

            Unless you’re a 69 yr old Black man and there are witnesses that you were walking away in the direction of your home when the “victim” who outweighed you by 80 lbs grabbed you by the shoulders and knocked you to the ground.

          • nocamo33 says:

            There is no “common sense” in any of these cases. Just what makes sense to the ruling class. If they decide Dunn was in fear, he was in fear. If they decide Trayvon is a thug, he IS A THUG. If James was allowed to attack from behind and still be the victim, so be it. No justice anymore in this great land.

  46. Carmen says:

    Is Dunn eligible for the death penalty because the V was a minor?

  47. sadlyyes says:

    new florida club
    pussies with a gun

  48. sadlyyes says:

    he DIDNT need to,he wanted to….

  49. J4TMinATL says:

    Thanks Prof for breaking down case!

  50. J4TMinATL says:


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