Justice for Trayvon shall become Justice for Everyone

Wednesday, July 24, 2013

Good afternoon my friends:

I believe we need to begin considering other cases. I am not suggesting that we should abandon seeking justice for Trayvon. I am recommending that we take what we have learned from Trayvon’s case, the trial, and the dreadful verdict and apply it to other cases.

Let justice for Trayvon become justice for everyone.

I recommend we focus our attention on the Jordan Davis murder because it’s another Florida self-defense case similar to the Trayvon Martin murder and Angela Corey’s office will be prosecuting the defendant, Michael Dunn. I believe Angela Corey will be the lead prosecutor and she will be assisted by John Guy. We are familiar with him because he was a member of the prosecution team that lost the Zimmerman trial.

The case is scheduled for trial on September 23, 2013.

Michael Dunn, who is 46-years-old, is charged with one count of first degree murder and three counts of attempted murder. The incident occurred at a gas station in Jacksonville last November. According to police, he shot into a Dodge Durango occupied by four black teenagers after arguing with them about their loud music. Despite firing many shots, Davis was the only one hit. Dunn told police that he feared for his life because he saw one of the boys pointing a shotgun. Police did not find a firearm in the vehicle and none of the boys were armed. Dunn, who has been denied bail, is represented by Corey Strolla.

The case is assigned to Judge Russell Healey. Strolla and Dunn were in court last Tuesday, July 16. Larry Hannan of Jacksonville.com describes what happened:

Tuesday’s hearing was the first since Judge Russell Healey replaced judges Suzanne Bass and Mallory Cooper, who each excused themselves from the case.

Strolla sought Bass’ removal after accusing her of misconduct and bias against his client. Cooper is now handling another high-profile case, Donald James Smith for 8-year-old Cherish Perrywinkle’s sexual assault and death.
Bass denied Dunn bail, refused a motion to have the state declare him indigent and pushed to have the trial in September even though his attorneys said it was unrealistic.

With a new judge, Strolla sought to revisit bail and Dunn’s indigent status. But Healey denied both requests.

If Dunn had been declared indigent, the state would have been required to pay for investigations Strolla wanted to conduct into the crime.

Bass and Healey both denied the motion because Strolla is being paid $7,500 a month to represent Dunn. Strolla said Dunn’s parents are paying him, and not Dunn himself, but both judges said that didn’t matter.

Strolla also reiterated his previous statement that he would not be ready for trial in September and told Healey the earliest he could be prepared is February. Healey told Strolla he wanted to try the case this year, but for now the trial date remains set for Sept. 23.

Go to the following link to review the discovery (H/T to fauxmccoy for providing the link):

Click to access Michael-Dunn-discovery-materials.pdf


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448 Responses to Justice for Trayvon shall become Justice for Everyone

  1. KateW says:

    They are saying the killer’s rescue of the family was staged. The officer involved was and is a long time supporter of the killer, as per his facebook, before and after the incident; however, during the day of the crash he makes no mention of Zimmerman being there. The officer then deletes his facebook and twitter page, but not after folks captured it. Uh huh…I will let you guys read the rest.


  2. KateW says:

    Juror B29 in 10 seconds. She says Zimmerman is guilty, pressured into a not guilty verdict, blames it on the law.

  3. wow Trayvon has a little brother i didn’t know Tracy and Brandy had a baby….congrats to them

    i did wonder a couple of weeks ago but it’s true. how cool 🙂

  4. Soulcatcher says:

    ****Okay, take a look at this cause I have been for the last hour.


    now i’m sure some have you have seen this……Scroll down to the pictures of the sherrif, wife, and baby, and compare them with the above video. Let me know if I should check myself in 72 hr watch


  5. Malisha says:

    The glib, dishonest, self-pitying, cowardly “I was hurting” comment from B-29 set me back to raging about Richard Cohen. I am particularly disgusted by Richard Cohen’s racist rant because he sets himself up as some little judge who can tell US to discuss race issues “honestly.” HIM? The lying self-aggrandizing punk telling others to discuss race “honestly”?

    Read this shit:

    And anybody tell me ANYTHING other than if he were honest, his first sentence would have to be: “I don’t want people to think of me as stupid and bad and mean spirited and racist as George Zimmerman but actually I am.”

    Oh he is such a shame and a disgrace. OMG, OMG, that the rag he writes for allowed him to print that crap and pretended it was good for us as a nation to read what HE HAD TO SAY about it.

    Puke all over him.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Malisha –


      A schmuck.

      And a dumb know-nothing one, at that.

    • Jasmine says:

      I am just as disgusted. I hate to hear that and see it. Every time I hear that statistic about crime it makes me cringe. They make it seem as though blacks are the only ones committing crimes. All I want to do is list all of the crimes that whites commit but I don’t. They won’t ever see it. I feel like I should be more afraid of white males.
      Remember just a couple of weeks ago a older white male befriended a mother who had 3 children with her. She allowed this male to go into the dressing room with her 8 year old daughter. He left to store with her and 10 hours later she was found dead. Now if this had been a black male I am pretty darn sure that she would never had gotten into a vehicle with this man and allowed him to take them to walmart and shop with them. No that wouldn’t happen but because statistics say that you should be more afraid of a black male that a white one, she trusted this man. Her daughter paid the price.

  6. Dee says:

    Don’t allow them to put us back to sleep concerning this verdict. If we do our children will be next.

  7. Carmen says:

    Trayvons death has has inspired millions of people to act (hopefully in 2014). I believe TM’s death woke many of us up and out of the complacent stupor of having a black president.

    The Zimmy’s and the like are scared.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen NEEDS to be scared. He should never breathe free for a single minute of a single hour on a single day in his miserable life.

      I predict colon cancer for him, not too far in the future. Sticking a pin in a chubby little voodoo doll right now. PRICK PRICK PRICK, prick!

  8. MDH says:

    No proof that he killed him intentionally???

    That implies the she and her cohorts do not understand English.

    Definition of intentional (adj)

    Bing Dictionary


    [ in ténshən’l ]

    1.deliberate: done on purpose, not by accident
    2.involving thoughts about objects: involving thoughts such as beliefs or desires about different kinds of objects, including those that have no actual existence

    GZ admitted that he took aim and shot Trayvon in the chest. He did not say he pulled the gun and it went off by accident.

    Arguably, gun enthusiasts would say that GZ took deliberate aim in that he made sure not to hit his own hand.

    And they had the gall to question the intelligence of Dee Dee.

    • elcymoo says:

      Maybe she meant that there was no proof that he intended to shoot and kill Trayvon when he got out of his truck.

    • Dee says:

      They have proof that he killed Trayvon the blood pattern on his head shows that he was on top of Trayvon as he was bleeding. Gravity does lie, the injuries to Zimmerman right side of his nose. It was done by his own gun, when he hit himself across the nose, to make it look as though Trayvon punched him in the nose. This is why he didn’t want to go to the hospital. Because he knew what kind of damage, he had done to himself, making sure that he didn’t
      injure his eye in the process. The cut that was on the right side of his nose was made from the metal of the clip that was on his gun. If Trayvon punched him that hard to make only his right side injured, he would have closed Zimmerman eye. Zimmerman self-inflicted his face injuries so that he could have a reason to kill Trayvon and look, as though he was being beaten.

  9. sparger says:

    “That’s where I felt confused, where if a person kills someone, then you get charged for it,” Maddy said. “But as the law was read to me, if you have no proof that he killed him intentionally, you can’t say he’s guilty.”

    Does she think it was an accident that George killed Trayon. I don’t even think she believes it was self defense. I don’t think Maddy is very bright.

    • aussie says:

      Be interesting to find out who was “reading the law” and interpreting it for them. Wonder how much there was of “my husband’s an attorney so this is what it means”.

      So far from these two jurors, it looks like they spent a lot of time trying ti (mis)interpret the law, and none at all on looking at the actual evidence.

    • Girlp says:

      I’m thinking some of the other jurors confused her as did the law and the jury instructions she sounds completly confused. Seems to me most likely they were telling her that George accidently killed Trayvon I am basing my opinon on B37.

      • Malisha says:

        “He did it accidentally” does not equal “he didn’t mean to” and in any case, that is the difference between Murder-1 and Murder-2, or at the very LEAST, the difference between Murder-2 and Manslaughter. The issue is this:

        Did he do SOMETHING that caused the death?
        That SOMETHING that he did (even though it was not premeditated), did he MEAN to do it?

        Obviously, that is way different from “proving that he ‘meant to’ kill Trayvon Martin.” He might have only ‘meant to’ rape him, kidnap him, subdue him at gunpoint, terrify him, or ‘teach him a lesson, but the fact that he actually killed him while trying to do any of those other things (or anything else that he did not have a right to force Trayvon to do) means that he DID kill him by deliberately DOING SOMETHING that caused his death.

        I’d like to kill somebody while being not guilty because all I wanted to do was test my gun.

  10. riisey007 says:

    It looks like from looking at the crime scene photos that at least the evidence has been collected appropriately. SPD should take notes. Looks like Jordan may stand a chance at justice. I hope the Martin family and Smith family rally together. I was watching the night of the verdict and the Smith family attorney said the family was weary about Dunn being found guilty due to Zimmermans not guilty verdict, the attorney said he told them that this case was different and that they had witnesses. This is really good for them, but I sure hope they are reliable come September. I also feel in my heart that someone saw Martin being killed but did not come forward.

    • sparger says:

      I think someone saw Trayvon murdered too. All that yelling someone came outside and saw the fatal shot. All those people just saw a struggle and walked away. How come that coward John Goode didn’t walk out to the fight. Allegedly he didn’t know anyone had a gun.

      • Drew says:

        Yeah, seems to me that if (in my neighborhood, at least) some CRAZY BIG BLAKK THUG (or a thin teenager) was bashing my neighbor’s head into the concrete 30-40 times (lightly, obviously, because there was zero wounding or concussion) that one of the nice neighbors would come out to help.

        None of it happened even remotely the way Zimmertits, the defense, the national media, or even the prosecution described it.

        None. Of. It.

      • Drew says:

        No one came out to help poor, weak fatty to because:

        a) there was zero fight, just a guy screaming for his life not to be shot by a maniac with a gun
        b) people saw said gun and didn’t want to come out to help
        c) he needed no help, as he was the one with the gun

    • Malisha says:

      Jeremy saw. “He warned me he was serious.”

  11. boyd says:

    B-29 and her girlfriend Jurors are a joke. What’s this Florida law prevented us from a Guilty plea?

    Does She have a law degree? NO
    Did the judge hand the case over to the Jury? YES
    Would the Judge hand over a case that had no chance for conviction? NO

    The Judge said there was direct and circumstanial evidence. Who the hell are these Jurors to beleive they know more than the Judge on the law.

    Also why did not BDLR have big mouth E-?? removed. Her husband the lawyer is good friends with West and OMara. My team lead told me this today. They removed the Church lady, so why not that nasty woman.

    Now Im pissed off again

    • ks says:

      B29 is just trying to excuse her cowardice. Apprently they took a vote right at the beginning and she started at M2. The she allowed herself to be bullied, confused, whatever into an acquittal. I do believe she thinks GZ got away with murder but, by bringing in the publicity stunt nonsense she is trying to downplay her part in it.

      The only thing that I like about all this juror stuff is that from a public relations standpoint, it taints their decision in the public eye and keeps the negative attention on GZ and his apologists and enablers.

      • KateW says:


      • sadlyyes says:

        this woman with 8 children,had ths SPLENDID once in a lifetime chance,to make a difference in this world,however her mundane reasons what -EVA they were prevented her.throw her on the dustbin of mediocrity and let her stfu

    • dianetrotter says:

      And why didn’t they wait for clarification on manslaughter?

    • KateW says:

      Whoa whoa whoa so there is evidence juror E-XX is good friends with West and OMara!! UGHHH This absolutely sickens me!! Those cheating b*stards!

    • aussie says:

      Do you mean B37? One of her daughters is a lawyer, too, and used to work in the public defender’s office, does that remind you of anyone?

  12. Woow! says:

    Good afternoon friends.

    Juror B-29, I am so disappointed in this woman. That is all I can say.

  13. MDH says:

    Look at this video about driving while black.

  14. endlessummer76 says:

    OK, I’ve already had enough of Juror B-29. She is all over the place:
    He got away with murder, but the trial was a publicity stunt and charges should never have been brought. In our hearts he was guilty but there was no evidence to convict. I am hurting as much as Trayvon’s parents. I held out to the end.

    She is full of crap.

    I’ve already questioned her intelligence, we know she has no backbone, now I’m going to question her motivations. Is she looking for a book deal too? Did she get paid for her interview?

    • Malisha says:

      She’s hurting as much as Trayvon’s parents?
      She had the nerve to open her mouth and say that?
      So she can now steal their pain as Fogen stole Trayvon’s scream!
      I get it: African American pain and terror is devalued so any kind of inconvenience or worry on the part of a non-AA becomes equal to whatever outrage you can perpetrate against them.

      I heard this from a Narcissistic [b***h] once. She had done something just HORRIBLE to a friend of mine, right in my presence, and my friend was distraught! She never apologized. Then she had the nerve to write a letter to this friend saying, “I understand you felt bad but you can imagine how much worse I FELT.”

      Oh it reminds me of something: O’Mara said Trayvon had “no injuries” other than the bullet in his heart. Whereas poor Fogenpoop had both a nose bump and a two-laceration head trauma, poor little punkassholesissybitch.

      So now, remind me: Where was it written that you’re allowed to kill “a suspect” without getting a single scratch on the sacred royal untouchable lily-white 0.5-muscled temple of your booohhdeeee? What’s the section number of that law in the great state of Florida?

      • Malisha says:

        Grammatical error: “becomes equal to whatever outrage you can perpetrate against them.” should be, “becomes equal to whatever outrage you can perpetrate against any African American.”

        As in: scratch a white, boo hoo hoo hoo hoo!
        But: kill a Black, oh well, shit happens.

        • endlessummer76 says:

          I ❤ Malisha : ) and I REALLY wish you would write a book about the whole damn thing, front to back, top to bottom. You have an incredible gift.

          There are comments that you have written that just reach inside and grab my guts. On top of that you can be hilarious. Most of all, you have a way of conveying your insights, theorizing and drawing conclusions that is extraordinary. Truth.

          • Malisha says:

            Endlessummer, thank you for your kind words. In truth, I have been contemplating a novel (not a piece of nonfiction because I have already written a piece of nonfiction and I find that it doesn’t help in the slightest) about a woman who believes that she is the reincarnation of the wife of a craftsman who worked on the building of the Taj Mahal. This woman becomes convinced that she lived seven lives after her husband died, and she goes through her memories of each of them, identifying people she knew in those other lives, and reacting to them in REAL TIME with great equivocation and at times frank hallucinatory terror. Finally, after she experiences 9/11 in New York (covered with soot but physically unharmed) she comes unglued.

            But more recently, I pulled her character out of the soot of Wall Street and threw her into Sanford, Florida instead. She sees Fogen in his defendant’s seat at trial and has a “deja vu” realizing he is the lazy, malingering pasha for whom her husband worked at his trade. Her hallucinations become more and more vivid as she sees him in his satins, ordering servants around, petulant and self-indulgent.

            And then I won’t tell you the ending!

            Wow, what fun. Maybe I’ll do it!

            I really thank you for your kind words. This case has been such a horror story for us, the ability to derive anything good out of it is precious.

            A sculptor named Egon Wainer who taught at the University of Chicago once said, “The only appropriate response to abuse is creativity.”

          • degraveegmailcom says:

            I agree,I love it when Malisha speaks.

          • cielo62 says:

            X100. Good description!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Valerie says:

        She also said this trial was a publicity stunt ?!?…by whom? the same parents her heart bleeds for? I’m waiting for the full interview.

    • riisey007 says:

      I am sure she got paid. She is a Cna with a lot of kids. What other motivation did she have? it is all to appease us and let us see a minority telling us the verdict was right. Geez these jurors need to stop!!

    • a2nite says:

      She’s stupid & feels guilty. Too darned bad.

  15. ada4750 says:

    Micheal Dunn … an extra easy case. I wonder if Corey’s gang did not tell themselves that even if GZ got free but Dunn is convicted they still can claim: You see there is justice for AA too. And they loose no supporters, so all’s well that ends well.

  16. BillT says:

    the term “American” could be accurately used for any person living in north or south America….the United States of America is a subdivision of those areas.

    • ks says:

      Though the term AA refers to and is solely used in the US (as far as I know), that’s a fair point.

      • BillT says:

        ty, just like a european could be from one of several countries, same for Asian and African….not too many antarcticans around i admit, most i have seen are very short, very good swimmers that eat mucho fish!

    • elle says:

      When my family is not in the U.S., we are care to say we are from The States, cuz there are a lot of Americans. The U.S. does not have more right to the word than any other country on an American continent.

  17. Carmen says:

    Why is everyone so concerned with her race? I am cuban. Latino. Hispanic whatever. In this country my mother is considered black (afro-cuban) and my dad is considered white. Therefore I am not African American.

    I wish african -americans would stop spreading there racist labels. There are black people in other parts of the world, that DO NOT wish to be identified as AA.

    • BillT says:

      there are also quite a few WHITE folks that are now Americans that came here from south africa.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m guessing Taaffe’s ancestors were white South Africans, called “Afrikaaners,” descendants of the colonizers who grabbed up the land from the Africans who lived there without guns and who therefore couldn’t properly defend against the “voortrekkers” who had them.

    • ks says:

      You are confusing curious with concerned.

      Anyawy, good for you. Whatever.

      Btw, black people who are born and live in other parts of the world are not African AMERICAN by definition. Duh. How could AA’s “spread their racist labels” to them? Magic? Double Duh.

      Now run along…..

      • Malisha says:

        One of the funniest headlines I ever read involved some journalist’s misunderstanding of the difference between “Black” and “African American.” Apparently he had been told that it was no longer cool to say “Black” so he wrote, about Nelson Mandela, “First African American President of South Africa.”

        • Jasmine says:

          You know when the Pres was first running he was not considered black enough and then it went to technically he wasn’t black (like American black) since his father was African and not African American. That was after Hilary dropped out of the race. Bill Cosby doesn’t think that African Americans should call themselves that since we have never even lived in Africa. Their culture isn’t ours any longer. It is an interesting thing being Black in America though 🙂

    • Danita says:

      Wow why so snippy, I don’t agree about your statement……what is a AA racist label just curious……..by the way the label African American was not a black vote……just sayin

      • Danita says:

        Reply to Carmen…….

        • ks says:

          My guess – Too brown to pass and not happy about it. lol.

          • Carmen says:


          • ks says:

            Huh what? So now you respond, eh? Gee I wonder why. Uh huh….

          • boyd says:


          • Jasmine says:

            Ha! But yeah African-Americans and their racists labels??? Yeah said as though AA are in control of anything. Jesh

          • Woow! says:

            Heeheee….. she’s black and not happy about it.

          • aussie says:

            KS please don’t be rude and patronising (“Run along now”).

            Carmen has an excellent point which is obvious to anyone outside of the USA and plenty inside.

            N*gger >> Negro >>> Black >>>AA is how the names changed over time. It applied entirely to descendants of slaves. Then, based entirely on skin colour, it started getting applied to anyone who wasn’t plainly shiny white to look at, some of whom have ZERO African blood in them at all. Or if they have, it’s not from slave ancestors. Some people, like Indians (from India) are very dark, too. all by themselves. Natives in South America are also not lily-white, but without any African influence.

            All these people have a totally different culture and life experience than AAs — except maybe for being harassed by the cops because of their skin colour For AA’s to expect these people to automatically side with them,about anything, just because of their skin is just as bad…. because it’s for the same reason. Appearance..

            I think Carmen is objecting to B29 being characterised here as “black”. She’s not. She’s a light brown but obviously Hispanic, and might easily identify as white.

            Hispanic in itself is an insult, IMHO. It displays an ignorance of the world or a not giving a damn about the world — all it means is “Spanish speaking”. Why not call “whites” “Englisher” and be done with it? (if you can call some US English “English”). Labelling people “Hispanic” is saying we can’t even be bothered to find out where you’re really from, you’re all the same anyway.

            There is no good reason why any Government forms should ask black or white. It is official high-level discrimination. IF the true aim was to know how to plan services for minorities, they could ask (as they do here in Australia) “what language is spoken in your home?” .

          • Woow! says:

            Hi Aussie, I disagree with you on this comment

            “For AA’s to expect these people to automatically side with them,about anything, just because of their skin is just as bad…. because it’s for the same reason. Appearance..”

            I cannot speak for all blacks but I have never known black people to expect other dark skinned people to side with us. Just like all white people are not racist, all black people are not racist too.

            You mentioned dark skinned Indians and South American Natives… GOHWT those people move to America with their minds made up that american blacks are gangsters, will rob you, rape their women, drug addicts, you know all the stereo types from movies and news reports. They come here thinking they are better than american blacks just to find out white people despise them the same. I am speaking from experience.

            I work at a global telecom company that import a lot of engineers from Pakistan, India, Africa, Russia….. and all these people look down on blacks and think they are better…. they don’t have to come to america and learn racism, them come her as racists.

            Even blacks from Africa come here not like american blacks because they feel we are not true blacks because we are mixed with other races. You will not find many African marrying American Blacks. When they come here they stay in their own little groups. If they do marry a black American it is for a green card and once they get permanent residence they will disappear and marry one of their own.

            It is a shame that my people has had to fight for rights and other’s come here and benefit from them and enjoy their lives while turning their noses down on us then calling us racists when they are the true racists.

          • ks says:

            Thanks for the speech but please don’t presume lecture me about the what AA means and the history of race relations and racial categorizations and terms here. Though you may have has sympathy for what she is saying, I’m sorry but Carmen does not have a valid point. Historically and now, there’s nothing remotely unusual about people being described differently in different parts of the world. My guess is that she’s only “upset” about it because she may be being labled as an AA here.

            Which brings me to this:

            More importantly, her characterization of AA as a “racist label” being forcibly? magically? spread to blacks all over the world is as offensive as it is absurd. I could have been more polite about it but there’s really no need to suffer such foolishness gladly.

          • ks says:

            To put it simply and finally, if Carmen were being labled as a White American here in the US, I seriously doubt we’d be hearing any silliness about white people spreading the racist term White American to whites all over the world who may or may not want to be associated with it. C’mon now…

            If I’m right, it’s because she may be generally labeled as AA here more often or not, at least until until she speaks Spanish, and, as such, have to deal with the negative stereotypes and whatnot that goes along with it. For that I can’t say I blame her because who would like that but that is not because AAs are forcing a “racist label” on her.

          • bettykath says:

            ks, Your judgementalism is telling. Very negative.

            The way we reach understanding is to listen to each other without a lot of judgement. We’re all here on this blog with a lot in common. Giving each other a bit of non-judgement over something we disagree with or just don’t understand is probably a good thing to do.

          • aussie says:

            Woow, interesting about the Pakistanis, Indians, Russians etc — they have no blacks in their countries. Whatever anti-black feeling you see in them, must be the result of excellent racist American propaganda, ie they’ve heard nothing but bad about American blacks in the news. India is still to some extent a caste society, too, so perhaps it’s easy for them to see blacks as American’s “untouchables”.

            Other Africans? why should they have any fellow feeling for US blacks? it is ONLY a skin colour issue for the USA, not for other people. ALL newly arrived immigrant groups keep to themselves: they have shared culture, shared cuisine, shared language (especially when their English is poor).

            First generation of any immigrants anywhere very rarely marry out, partly because the local majority won’t have anything to do with them. If they do, they’d be silly to pick the group they can easily identify as the local underclass, if they went to America with any intention of “making good”. First generation marry among themselves, second generation may marry other nationality immigrants; it’s mostly the third before they freely marry the “original” citizens of their adopted country. (This is plainly visible here in Australia where 46% of the population are newcomers – people who themselves or their parents were not born here).

            People migrate for many reasons, but they all boil down to wanting to better their lives. Their OWN lives, not to fight for the betterment of others in their new country. Those arriving as refugees have known every bit as bad as slavery and Jim Crow, if not worse; they have their own pain to handle.

            IF they’re white, in a few generations they can cease being a visible minority. If they’re black or brown or yellow they face the same loss of rights as you do.

    • Why is everyone so concerned with her race? I am cuban. Latino. Hispanic whatever. In this country my mother is considered black (afro-cuban) and my dad is considered white. Therefore I am not African American.

      I wish african -americans would stop spreading there racist labels. There are black people in other parts of the world, that DO NOT wish to be identified as AA.


      She is black by American legal standards. So-called “mixed” people cannot be white in America. And Scandinavians don’t consider Italians and Greeks white either. White changes depending on the geopolitical needs of the people in question. In the United States, however, race is a caste system where you are either black or white. Those who are neither are FOREIGNERS.

      Just in case people do not understand this. Brown, red, yellow, green or purple are not on US census forms. Only black and white, denoting the caste system. Everything ELSE is a FOREIGN designation…

      Hispanic is a foreign designation. It denotes an ethnicity, but is not correlated LEGALLY with brown. Hispanics are still required to choose between black or white. African-American (which is not even an ethnic designation, both Africa and America are continents not languages, countries or cultures) is just a 21st century term for Negro which is Spanish for black. People are confused in this country because they don’t understand that were are dealing with LEGAL categories.

      BTW, this is a legal blog.

      • lurker says:

        Not certain there is a single legal definition of race in the US. The census, and many other legal docs rely on self-definition. Except for some defs of Native American, not certain that most of racial outlines are codified.

        • boyd says:

          I’m part German, English, Indian and Black. I consider myself Black because I have dark skin and everyone else considers me Black.. I would guess almost all Blacks whose ancsetry goes back a long way in the country have mixed heritage.

          In the census rolls many were described as Mulatto( As I recall) as my Great Great Grandmother born in Kansas City, Missouri from the 1830s census..

        • Girlp says:

          I agree lurker I don’t know of any law that says how you identify yourself, it’s up to you. Maddy does not have to identify as AA in the US apparently she identified as Hispanic. My understanding is that accross the Carribean and Central America it is not unusual for the people in these area to be of Native, African and European mix most people I’ve met just call themselves Colombian, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican etc…

          • Malisha says:

            I will bet that B-29 was bullied subtly by being made to feel that her support for a GUILTY verdict was just the result of her having a “pBa-lack” chip on her less-than-white shoulder. You can just imagine how this was playing out in there. “He should never have been charged; he was only charged because of ‘THOSE PEOPLE’ and their riots; you can tell they wanted his blood because they wouldn’t admit that Trayvon Martin punched him and called him racist names; it’s all political and ‘THOSE PEOPLE’ just want to make a public spectacle and shove it down OUR throats that whites are not allowed to defend themselves,” blah blah blah blah blah blah… I’m sure she felt utterly battered. B*tch-slap-battered.

    • boyd says:

      you have hyphenated everyone. talking about racist labels.

      I’m proud that my Great Grandfather fought to save the Union and Dad and many uncles fought to free peoples all around the worldin the last 100years,, and made this country the light of the world that draws people from everywhere. Perhaps the black people and others you refer to should fight to make their lives better in their own countries. I certainly do not wish for them to be considered as AA.

      I spent 2 years living in West Africa. They love america.

      • MDH says:

        My wife is from Senegal. So I try to find out the country that an African is from. They do love the USA, though when Ghana beat the USA in the 2010 World Cup, my neighbors from Ghana watching in my home let out cries of joy.

    • Malisha says:

      I think the concern about B-29’s race was that she was bullied by five white women. Hmmmmm. Not that unusual for Sanford behavior, was it?

      • bettykath says:

        my thought as well. She left Chicago looking for a safer place for her kids. I think she jumped from the frying pan to the fire. Wanna bet she moves?

    • riisey007 says:

      ” I wish African-Americans would stop spreading their racist label”

      What? This entire case as about race just in case you missed that. I wanted to know her race because they said 5 white women and one woman whom they were unsure of race, so excuse me if I wanted to know because it seems people can’t just look at someone and know they are not white. We were not privy to seeing this juror during the trial. I could care less ho doesn’t want to identify with me or you. I know who I am and what I am which is a human being. P.s. I don’t think we were in charge of the racist labels.

    • Woow! says:

      “I wish african -americans would stop spreading there racist labels.”

      WTF do you mean “stop spreading racist labels”? I cannot believe you made that ignorant a$$ comment.

      • Jasmine says:

        Me neither. I have no idea what she is talking about but hey it is a free speech country. She said that as though we made up the census or as though we are the ones who control who is called what. Some people you just have to shake your head at and move on.

    • MDH says:


      African Americans did not come up with the 1/32 law. Therefore, they did not promulgate racism.

      Look at that fool Sununu spouting about Obama not being “Anglo Saxon enough”.

      That is how skin color is applied and sadly accepted by too many in this country.

      • concernedczen says:

        Carmen dear,

        If it wasn’t for African-Americans, you wouldn’t be able to do any of the things that you are free to do in this country. You wouldn’t have any rights to spout the BS you just spouted.

        You owe a great deal to African-Americans. It’s about time you learned that.

        • concernedczen says:

          And Aussie,

          I am too tired to get into the any depth of the nonsense you just posted.

          I’ll just say, you should examine your clear fear of the “dark skinned” people of the world uniting against injustice. You have mentioned this topic several times and made ignorant comments each time. Enough lecturing people on topics that you clearly know little about.

          • aussie says:

            “,,,“dark skinned” people of the world uniting against injustice.,,,” looks like you think injustice is something that happens only to dark skinned people. Or that dark skin is some magic uniting force that transcends everything else — all other history, all other culture, all other ethnicity, all other national history.

            So, you’re saying people are nothing but their skin colour..

            You are clearly ignorant of places in the world where white skinned people suffer injustice. And places in the world where dark skinned people DO the injustice….in some cases to white skinned people. Not to mention red, yellow etc other skin colours.

            In the United States — which is NOT THE WORLD, for your information — black people suffered injustice (as we see it today) because they were SLAVES (which was an internationally accepted process at the time). The fact that they happened to have black skin was coincidental.

            They suffer today because of resistance from the former owner class to getting into the 21st century on this topic. Other dark skinned people who’ve moved to the US since get caught up in it by default, largely because of ignorance, and because it is easy to SEE dark skin and make assumptions about where it came from. Minorities of lighter skin also face some discrimination because it’s easier to pick on minorities; but darker skin just make them easier to recognise.

            However, unlike you, most people see themselves as a lot of other things besides their colour, and many will unite with, or ignore, others based on those other factors, NOT colour. There is no visible movement for the “,“dark skinned” people of the world uniting against injustice..” because THEY see themselves as something else first.

          • concernedczen says:

            No, Aussie, you are ignorant and arrogant thinking that you need to educate the AA posters about other “dark-skinned” peoples of the world.

            Give it a rest.

            You also laughably posted a couple of weeks ago that Australia is not a racist country.

            You are clueless my dear.

  18. riisey007 says:

    It is Emmitt Till’s Birthday please review the videos and listen to his mother, relatives, friends and other speak on him as a child and talk about what lead to his death. * Warning** Sad!!

    The video go will go in order.

  19. Sophia33 says:

    Alright, someone needs to investigate this jury. In her interview, B29 said she fought until the end. I would have hung the jury, but that is another issue. Remember Taaffe going on Nancy Grace and saying that the minority juror was holding out and that it was 5 to 1? All of this before verdict was announced? B29 just confirmed that this was the case.

    • endlessummer76 says:

      Fought until the end, when she caved? Really, I am questioning the basic intelligence of this juror.

      In the end, she could not stand up for Trayvon, and she let a murderer go unpunished. Now she’s trying to blame the system for her own failure to heed her moral compass.

      • Malisha says:

        She was not the sharpest tool in the shed; and the other tools had outside backing; they were POWER TOOLS.

        She is still guilty of voting against her conscience. I have no real sympathy for her UNLESS she tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the feds if and when they investigate jury-bullying. Let her start the real investigation by telling the real truth. She should be ashamed of herself, but that would be a good start.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I agree endlesssummer, but I am talking about the larger issue. How did Taaffe know that this jury was holding out? He tweeted it and said it on Nancy Grace BEFORE the verdict was read. People at the Treehouse were talking about it BEFORE the verdict was read.

        That is something that I think should be investigated.

      • Olivia says:

        “Now she’s trying to blame the system for her own failure to heed her moral compass.”

        I don’t like that Nelson permitted them to deliberate through dinner.

        That they asked to deliberate through dinner seemed to me was a strong indicator that they had decided to push themselves and arrive at a decision before 10 pm.

        I’m fairly confident that Nelson knew, based on her years of experience with juror deliberations, that their asking to deliberate during dinner meant they were pushing themselves to make a decision that night.

        Nelson would know that a juror’s resolve to not give into any perceived or actual pressures to agree with other jurors decisions would be weaker late in the day than first thing in the morning.

        A better judgement would have been to deny their request to deliberate through dinner.

        Break for the night, get a good night’s rest, and continue deliberations in the morning.

        Nobody on a jury should ever feel pressured to make a final decision at the end of a long day of deliberations.

        In this case, there wasn’t even a break for dinner. Non-stop deliberating all day long.

        Nelson gets a large part of the thanks for their arriving at a decision after a marathon all day and late into the night deliberation session.

        Fred, if you’re reading, would you give your views on this?

  20. Boyd says:

    What the hell! Why would the Judge hand the case over to the Jury, if there was no way to convict?

    Of course there was a way to convict. People are stupid. She’s not a lawyer, for her to say it should not have gone to a jury, is simple minded.

    • Boyd says:

      I’m referring to Juror B-29. Sick of these Jurors not doing the right thing, then crying afterwards.

    • MDH says:

      Real easy to convict with a clear conscience.

      There are scores of contradictions and testimony inconsistent with evidence to prove GZ lied early and often.

      There is no physical evidence indicating the need to kill Trayvon in order for Georgie Cream Puff to prevent loss of his own life.

      The self defense claim is based on the veracity of Georgie Cream Puff.

      A proven liar has no veracity, therefore the self defense claim is proved to be not true beyond a reasonable doubt.

      re M2:

      Did GZ kill Trayvon?


      Did GZ have ill intent?

      Yes, unless one really believes that a person who calls them asshole, punk or subject wants to be their friend.

      Did the act indicate a depraved mind with disregard to human life?

      Yes. The act of shooting, in and of itself, indicates a depraved mind.

  21. concernedczen says:

    Jason Silverstein ‏@Jason_Reads 8m

    Juror 29 misspoke when she said “Zimmerman got away with murder.” She meant to say, “Zimmerman got away with murder, because of me.”

    • type1juve says:

      That’s right. She let a murderer go free so she needs to accept responsibility and own her decision.

  22. fauxmccoy says:

    tweet from joy ann reid

    Joy Reid ‏@TheReidReport 25m

    Also, we FINALLY have the answer to Juror B29’s ethnicity: she’s Puerto Rican. Now was that so hard?

    – – – – – – –

    exactly as i expected

  23. whonoze says:

    Check out Lawrence O’Donnell’s takedown of Bill O’Reilly’s claim that GZ was justified in profiling Trayvon due to TM’s “street crime related” clothing.
    This clip is from Tuesday. Not (yet) up on O”Donnel’s site is his extension of his comment from Wednesday night, where he points out 1. (the setup) that black hoodies are preferred by thugs, and TM’s hoodie was gray, and 2. (the zinger) Bill O’Reilly sells black “O’Reilly Factor” logo’ed hoodies on his website for $29.99.

    • KateW says:

      So O’Reilly must be a thug lol Let us also not forget Martin had on khaki pants, which were light colored. Yeah….he really looked like he was about to commit a crime where his pants were screaming, I’m out in the open, LOOK AT ME!

    • Olivia says:

      “2. (the zinger) Bill O’Reilly sells black “O’Reilly Factor” logo’ed hoodies on his website for $29.99.”


    • Malisha says:

      Well O’Reilly IS a thug. Where’s the surprise in that?

  24. KateW says:

    LOL So OMara “claims” this killer helped a family BUT THEY NEEDED A PRESS CONFERENCE FOR THIS?>?>? Seriously, anything to keep this greasy killer and his pathetic money grubbing attorney in the spotlight. If you “helped” someone then why does this need to be broadcasted? Who cares if people don’t believe it. I am positive that OMara tried to pressure this family to come forward so he could claim this “act of heroism” was true. However, the family decided they didn’t want to be associated with this killer despite OMara’s urging. Pathetic slimeball!

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t believe the family had anything against getting into the three-ring proFogenite circus as a “real family act”; what I believe happened was that within 24 hours of their little charade, they began to be doxed and investigated and they realized it is not as easy to lie to the whole world than it is to lie to a few dozen corrupt SPD cops. THEN they got scared and STFU.

  25. concernedczen says:


    It’s clear that Judge Nelson’s purposefully confusing and incomplete jury instructions are the reason that there was an acquittal.

    And then when they ask for clarification, Judge Nelson did not give it.

    B29 STATES: “That’s where I felt confused, where if a person kills someone, then you get charged for it,” Maddy said. “But as the law was read to me, if you have no proof that he killed him intentionally, you can’t say he’s guilty.”

    No B29, that was not the issue. Zimmerman admitted that he intentionally killed Trayvon.

    • Exactly. So the jury instructions must be the ‘booklet’ B29 is speaking about in the article. If she thinks Fogen got away with murder, does she not realize that she was instrumental in letting him get away? Sheesh…

    • endlessummer76 says:

      And why hold the vote if you were confused? Where is their intellectual honesty in all of this? Where is the common sense? And what does she mean by “as the law was read to me…”? By whom? Juror B 37?

      • KateW says:

        It is clear they took advantage of this juror’s lack of understanding about any of this. The wolves closed in.

        • type1juve says:

          She doesn’t get a pass from me. She could have hung the jury. She knew exactly what was going on and she went along with it. She has children and they may have brown skin, I hope they never run into Fogen or someone like him.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        There needs to be a remedy for this!

    • KateW says:

      B29 should tell us who was texting the outside world as to what was going on in that room. That is what I want to know and who was not mulling over and considering the evidence. I hope she did for her sake, perform her due diligence. She is going to live with this egregious verdict for the rest of her life. Had it been her child, what would she have done? Would she have said the same thing? That there was no proof he intentionally killed the child that he wasn’t guilty? Stevie Wonder could see the guy was guilty!
      The problem is, which I have stated and the Professor has also stated, is that people begin their assessment of this incident at that intersection. NO! The incident begins when this killer targeted, stalked and then pursued on foot with a loaded weapon a child that was committing no crime!! THis killer cannot formulate in his mind a potential crime, act on it, pursue and then after creating this situation claims he was defending himself when the innocent individual he was targeting feels his life is in jeopardy and kicks his a**. Then he decides to murder him. I still believe to shut the kid up from telling people this guy attacked him. John Guy said it and none of them heard him. Their ears were closed and many of their minds made up. John Guy said THEY COULD NOT BEGIN THAT STORY AT THE END. THEY HAD TO LOOK AT HOW THEY GOT THERE.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        stating that people were texting from the deliberation room is a serious allegation. i sure would not make such an allegation based on the drunken ramblings of f. taaffe. that man talks nothing but smack, why start believing him now?

        • KateW says:

          Well because there is evidence that came out of juror B37’s trap. What she stated was what was being said prior to the verdict or anyone knowing what was going on in that room. So someone had to have been sending out that beacon of info to the CTH and that racist friend of the killer. His name I also refuse to say any longer. So I didn’t just base it off of the “ramblings” of a racist jerk off.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i suspect the CTH was going off of taaffe’s words as well. i just do not consider either as credible sources.

            it is quite often the case that there is 1 holdout juror. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to make that call.

            i’ll just repeat that texting from the deliberation room is a serious allegation in absence of credible facts.

        • Olivia says:

          IMO, of course it should be investigated. He said it during a televised broadcast. They didn’t pull his words after a 10-second or so delay.

          If Taafe was on the drug alcohol when he said it, well – maybe that’s even more reason to investigate.

          Relatively small amounts of the drug alcohol may cause one to be less inhibited. Drunks and loose lips . . .

          Just a thought – Taafe may be wishing like hell right now that his words were not noted/investigated.

          • Olivia says:

            Oh, and I agree that Taafe made a SERIOUS allegation about texting from the juror’s room.

            Investigate away. Let the chips fall where they may.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            saying that something should be investigated is very different from claiming that something happened. it’s the difference between opinion and libel.

            for myself, i will never accept either taaffe or the CTH as credible sources for anything.

          • Thrace says:

            I still wonder if he was the “not called” witness that Judge Nelson was having investigated. My feeling about Taaffe is the same as fauxmcoy’s – he’s all hot air. Ditto goes for the tree place, I see nonsense posted over there all the time that isn’t close to true. When they came back with the manslaughter question, I think most people had a good idea someone was holding out and assumed B29 due to her being a minority.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            but taaffe was not committing libel was he? perhaps you misunderstood my post?

          • riisey007 says:

            Let’s no forget that Taffe was escorted out of the courtroom and off the campus. He back peddled like crazy the next day. That drunk had everything to do with Martins murder, and don’t forget drunk man tell no lies.

          • KateW says:

            Thank you Olivia! I certainly think so too! By saying there is always one holdout is pretty incredible! I mean, did these people have a crystal ball. What are the odds. If this juror saw someone texting during deliberations then I would say that is not an absence of credible facts. Seeing as how cocky this juror was and racist, bigoted statements nothing is out of bounds for these folks. Juror B37, as the Professor has even stated, has shown to be a liar who lied her way onto the jury pool, so why are allegations of someone texting during deliberation not plausible. I suspect they did and someone was texting.

            The sheriff allowed these jurors visits with family members unsupervised. So why is it so unbelievable that someone was texting during deliberations. If they figured they could visit with family unsupervised, why would they not feel secure enough to text and social media out to someone they knew.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yeah, especially since they could easily switch phones with a family member and use that phone to text and message. So later on, if their own phone records were searched, nada! The text was sent with hubby or juniors or sallies phone, to cover the tracks.

        • Malisha says:

          Because something he said turned out to have a basis in fact: there was one hold-out. He could not have known that unless either (a) information came out from the jury room; or (b) Sheriff’s “monitors” were corrupt. Well which was it? Both?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            or mere coincidence? as i said, it was not a difficult conclusion to reach, based on the question from the jury. the day i start believing taaffe’s words, i’ll be cavorting in hell.

          • KateW says:

            Well that is a helluva coincidence. I mean really, down to the very number? 5:1 for acquittal is what he said. How did he know it was for acquittal. I mean it could have been 5:1 for guilty verdict. Then this juror goes on national TV and verifies this information that was going on during deliberations. I say this is very suspect and if this juror saw people texting or on their phones while they should have been deliberating then I would say that is credible evidence.

        • Thrace says:

          Wait – I just thought of something, when the court released the information about the juror’s time in sequestration – didn’t it say they were only allowed their cell phones once a day to check messages or make monitored calls? If so, they didn’t have any way to text anyone during deliberations.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yes, thrace. deputies had custody of the cell phones.

            i’m sure we will hear that they are inept, corrupt or something else to find a way to validate taaffe’s rather unremarkable guess as to a lone hold out on the jury. i’m not buying it, not without some damn good facts to back it up. taaffe’s ‘word’ does not count.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Then they send a question to the judge and Nelson refuses to explain that there was no unintentional killing for them to consider at all.

    • MDH says:

      Holy Moly, she confused intentional with pre-meditation.

      The “intentional” was proved by words out of GZ’s mouth clear as a bell:

      “I moved my hand and shot Trayvon”

      Unintentional would be something along the line of:

      “X was beating me, so I gave him a shove and the fact that he fell back on his head and died from a skull fracture was not my intent”

      And the other jurors refused to allow for more instruction and let her sit for nine hours?

      The more that comes out, the more a “show trial” is being confirmed.

    • ks says:

      Wow, great stuff folks. Maybe she meant intentionally in an Murder 1 sense as opposed to shooting intentionally in supposed self defense? Also, isn’t Murder 2 a depraved mind crime?

      In any event, whoever read the law to her or however it was read to her, either mislead or confused her and used that to talk her down from Murder 2 which she got right. It’s as we expected. Sadly so.

    • Boyd says:

      Tell B-29 Fogen lied. there’s your proof.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I have to wonder where she got the idea that gz claimed the shot was accidental? Because if it was intentional, then that’s the only other choice and that choice wasn’t even put on the table, so to speak.

      There needs to be a remedy for this!

  26. fauxmccoy says:

    tweet from joy ann reid

    So juror B29 WAS the original vote for 2nd degree murder, and she told Robin Roberts that Zimmerman “got away with murder.”

    if only she had held onto her convictions and hung the jury 😦

    • type1juve says:

      Why is she saying that now? Does she not realize that she had a hand in letting him get away with it? She makes me sick!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i wish with all my heart that she had been willing to hang that jury. clearly, she did not have the courage or strength of her convictions.

        • Malisha says:

          Also, she needed to get home, she shouldn’t have been on the jury, and I will bet anything she was intimidated by the Sheriff’s guys. I hope DOJ really interviews her at great length and depth.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @malisha — my curiosity is piqued when this juror states that she had a question for the judge but it went unanswered. we all saw the request for clarification drafted and presumably delivered (?) — what happened from that point?

        • Beverly says:

          Your question below….I barely recall the clarification, but I recall thinking at the time that it did not answer the question. It was almost as redundant as “we cannot answer the question”, but let us know if you have any other questions. Sorry I do not recall the specifics, but the answer was very non-responsive and not informative. I assume she really gave up at that point.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Unless… They could have made threats on her life and family??? She would be unable to prove?? Of course, such a claim, if made during deliberations, would have caused a mistrial, but only if she knew to make them. She might have believed that the only way to contact anyone outside the jury room was through the foreperson. Or, she could have been made to believe that, everybody but her was on the same page.

      But, from what’s she’s saying it says that, the prosecution made it’s case, but the racist jury rejected it on their own racist grounds. Sounds to me like mistrial material, five dye-in-the-wool racist, all favoring the defendant from the go, but concealing that fact from the court by artful deceit, does not a jury trial make.

      So, if we have 5 “stealth” jurors, there has to be a remedy!

  27. KateW says:

    Juror B29 was also the only other one that didn’t sign that letter about juror B37. So apparently the Caucasian women congregated and surrounded themselves. Why was this woman left out? Could it have something to do with her skin color? Hmmm
    She didn’t become part of the wolf pack. Could be some tension there.

  28. crazy1946 says:


    Do we want this type of attitude to prevail and allow Shel-lie to walk away with no punishment? I would suggest that she is the key to the truth of what really happened in Trayvons murder, and if she is convicted will talk like a canary! Will she take Tim Smith, Jeremy & Wife, Frank Taffee and the Ostermans down? This is the best chance we have for justice in Trayvon’s case, don’t ignore it….. You have a voice, use it and demand that she be brought down!!! Call, Text, E-Mail, go in person to the prosecutors office and demand this case go to trial and be won and the maximum punishment be given…

    • aussie says:

      I totally disagree. IF she is convicted she has zero to gain from singing. She DID have a chance to say something, if she knows anything, to help GZ get convicted in exchange for her prosecution being dropped. That did not happen. If she’s convicted she has nothing to gain by talking.

      The IF is a very big if now. Considering how easy it is to get out of murder, a bit of perjury should be child’s play.

      I also disagree with maximum penalty. That should go for cases of perjury where false evidence gets an innocent person convicted.

      • crazy1946 says:

        aussie, you are not realizing one thing that will occur and factoring that into that reply! What you fail to realize is that after she goes to jail the Fogdoit will dump her in a heartbeat for a newer model which his new found fame will provide. No one talks louder than a wife rejected for a new woman… Some times you have to think outside the box and realize what a person like either one of them would do in any give situation….

    • Woow! says:

      Shelly is confident she will get off like CAC. If there is a jury trial, we can hang up hopes for a conviction. Sanford residents will never find her guilty regardless of the evidence.

    • Malisha says:

      Extreeeeeeemely creeeeeeeeeepy.

      A creepy-ass cracker’s early education.

      • crazy1946 says:

        This is but one example of the Brain Engineering that I mentioned a while back that many thought was not possible or took many generations! Hate and prejudice is learned in the home, re-enforced in the schools (public and private), praised in the churches, and legislated in the congress of this nation….. We as a nation own the problem and we as a nation will have to solve the problem…. Now, back under my rock and back to posting links…..

  29. Malisha says:

    No matter how they present it, people who send money to Fogen are giving him gifts because they are so thrilled that he killed a Black kid and got away with it. PERIOD. Nobody does it for a loftier reason. Jeralyn did it for the same reason any scumbag dripdick redneck Klansman did it: paying a white massa for killin’ him a nigra thug. SHE likes to be seen as a good person so she dresses up her thuggery at Nordstrom but it’s transparent.

    • ks says:

      Yep. Especially NOW. At least before, they could hide it behind a “helping to pay for his defense” dodge but, now? It’s out in the open.

      Insofar as the higher class apologists, they can dress it up all they want but, it is what it is. They’re firmly in the slop with the with the pigs.

      I suspect the whole crew will move over to the Dunn case and start the smearing and apologetics if they haven’t already.

      • Olivia says:

        Seems the jurors finding the predator not guilty of murdering his young prey has caused the racists to rejoice and come out of the closet.

        No need to hide behind white masks, head cones and robes while they perform their devious deeds with hate in their hearts and minds.

        Apparently, they’re now under the mistaken impression that they are a majority of the USA population.

        Right-wing media, and forums, such as the CTH must have convinced the morons that their self-righteous hate is now acceptable to most people in the USA.

        Bwa, ha, ha!

        The racists are still GREATLY outnumbered in the USA. Only thing that has changed as a result of jurors finding murderer Zimmerman not guilty is that the closet racists have convinced themselves that their racism is now acceptable.

        I’m hoping they’re all tossing their KKK garb in the trash. Will be super funny when reality sets in and they regret throwing their masks away!

  30. Thrace says:

    Stupid people. Probably same ones blaming Obama for the economy and crying poor mouth, but have money to throw away on loser George. They mailed him a check on Tuesday. Shellie and GZ will blow through that in no time – and it won’t be for guns or security.

    Ohio gun group raises $12K for George Zimmerman


    • fauxmccoy says:

      we all know how bad the zim family is with money — that won’t last long, will it?

      of course it says everything we need to know about those who contributed.

      • Thrace says:

        ROFL – The group who raised the money had their website hacked and it crashed.

        Buckeye Firearms Website Hacked


        • fauxmccoy says:

          hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha — may it continue to be so. i doubt it was from too many people trying to donate 🙂

        • Olivia says:

          Good job! The damned site is expected to be down at least 2 weeks!

          Has me thinking about a couple computing terms that I wish to eliminate:

          1. Blackhat (BAD)
          2. Whitehat (GOOD)
          3. Master
          4. Slave

          I’d like to know which racist designated these terms and their meanings.

          You know where their minds were when they did. Same goes for the “male and female” part designations. The terms weren’t just pulled out of a hat. SOMEBODY started the usage.

          • 1. Blackhat (BAD)
            2. Whitehat (GOOD)
            3. Master
            4. Slave

            I’d like to know which racist designated these terms and their meanings.

            You know where their minds were when they did. Same goes for the “male and female” part designations. The terms weren’t just pulled out of a hat. SOMEBODY started the usage.


            Why are these terms offensive to you?

          • Olivia says:

            @ already been said,

            These terms are offensive to me simply because I do not like the unnecessary associations they make with color (Blackhat/Whitehat) and relationship (Master/Slave).

            There is no need to associate hacking with a color, and no need to associate a master/slave relationship with computer functions.

            Why call good hacking whitehat hacking and bad hacking blackhat hacking?

            Why use the word master to denote one program or function controlling another that is named slave?

            Same goes for white knight vs black knight.

            God/evil connotations.

            Subtle prejudice.

          • @ already been said,

            These terms are offensive to me simply because I do not like the unnecessary associations they make with color (Blackhat/Whitehat) and relationship (Master/Slave).

            There is no need to associate hacking with a color, and no need to associate a master/slave relationship with computer functions.

            Why call good hacking whitehat hacking and bad hacking blackhat hacking?

            Why use the word master to denote one program or function controlling another that is named slave?

            Same goes for white knight vs black knight.

            God/evil connotations.

            Subtle prejudice.

            OK. But you still have not explained how this is offensive to YOU.

          • cielo62 says:

            Olivia~ A few months ago I had to buy a slave on Ebay. (it’s a brake part that apparently is very important for the whole dang thing to work.) It was weird, to say the least, thinking about even buying a spare part called a slave.


        • cielo62 says:

          Thrace~ thanks. I left them a small word of condemnation.


        • cielo62 says:

          Thrace~ DAMN that it so awesome!! SO MANY times I wish I had the ability to actually know how to hack computers! I’d be messin’ with idiots who deserve it all day long!


    • a2nite says:

      It’s less money they can spend RW racist Rs campaigns.

    • cielo62 says:

      Thrace~ LOL! He’s already gotten a bunch of free guns. You’re right; they’ll blow through that cash inside of 2 months. I mean, he STILL will have to defend himself against a civil suit; lawyer unknown. HOPEFULLY he will have to defend himself against a Federal suit: lawyer unknown. No doubt he’s still fighting the security company suit for non -payment. I HOPE his previous lawyer decides to pile on and sue him as well. No matter how you look at it, gz is in a very deep hole, financially. And these stupid “george is a hero” bullshit will NOT help him.


  31. Endless Summer says:

    At this point I’m not that interested in hearing any of these jurors defend their vote. It is what it is. Regardless of the jury instructions, they did not bring any common sense to the verdict.

    Do they really believe that the law means that you can follow and chase someone, initiate an altercation, then kill and shoot them because you are scared? Do they really believe that the law legalizes hunting humans? Because that is how they voted. If they think that the law legalizes hunting humans, they should have voted for jury nullification.

    If they don’t believe that’s how the law is supposed to work then they should not have voted the way they did. If they let themselves be bullied by anyone on the jury into changing their vote, then they are a sorry excuse for a juror and should never have agreed to serve. They should have mentioned during voir dire that they have no spine and will go along with whatever someone tells them to do.

    • BillT says:

      have to agree, the court indeed gave the instructions to the jury that hunting humans is LEGAL as long as you say they scared you.

    • concernedczen says:

      “Do they really believe that the law means that you can follow and chase someone, initiate an altercation, then kill and shoot them because you are scared? Do they really believe that the law legalizes hunting humans? Because that is how they voted. ”


    • type1juve says:

      Thank you for saying this! I am not interested in any excuses this woman has to offer or anything else she has to say. She let a murderer go free and that to me is inexcusable. I will never forgive that jury or anyone else involved in letting Fogen walk. This verdict has hurt me deeply and strikes at the heart of every AA parent.

      • Malisha says:

        It also strikes at the heart of every OTHER parent, too, but there are, of course, parents whose hearts are already so hardened that striking at them is futile. Those we could have left behind when crossing the proverbial Red Sea to freedom. I WISH!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        With the jurors themselves claiming confusion and error, there has got to be a remedy somewhere, somehow. Further I cannot believe what this juror is saying, it flies in the face of logic and reason. Just how she dreamed up the possibility that the shooting might not have been intentional, when no such evidence or claim was made during the trial, is beyond even the most wild imagination possible.

        I doubt that judge Nelsons failure to instruct the jury more clearly, or answer their question might really have been the cause of their not guilty, but it certainly begs for mistrial.

  32. betterhalf says:

    sorry my betterhaLFS KEYBORD FLUCKED


  33. betterhalf says:

    MDH says:

    July 25, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Ever notice how Zimmerbots feel threatened by what could be?

    “Well, GZ had every right to suspect Trayvon because he could have been a burglar.”

    “I better not show my face because some harm could come to me.”

    “That concrete could have been a lethal weapon.”

    And I bet a lot of Zimmerbots have a “these colors don’t run” bumper sticker.




    ‘Ac maOAn the hibbees we might not ha

    ‘AbaUT OUR HOOLIGAns aRE THE TOP TEAm in the world.

    ‘aOH THE SHAme

    ‘aMAind you aIAd lo

    ‘AiaF HE TRIES TO HIJAck thaT SAying he most certaINLY WILLL.


    ‘AcaAPITAl aCITY AsaER
    VICE ON YOUR Arse its graSS

    ‘YUER Ass is graSS FOGGAge .


  34. riisey007 says:

    Let’s buckle down and put as much heart into this case. It is a shame that people have decided to shoot first and ask questions later, whether we like it or not George Zimmerman set off a domino effect with the shooting of Trayvon Martin. This kid was shot last year just several months after Zimmerman shot Trayvon. Take a look below at another gun nut, who shot at a family turning around in her driveway.


  35. betterhalf says:


    ve laWS AN REGULAtions written into staTUTE PROCEAdures to follow ect.

    ‘aN THEN
    WHEN E

    ‘LET PEOPLE picked aT RAndom from the genraNL PUBLIC
    with All there pre concei

  36. aussie says:

    She doesn’t look black to me. She looks Hispanic.

    A lot of Spaniards and Portuguese (and Italians and Greeks) have quite dark skin tone and hair. But they are Caucasian so they are WHITE. Descendents of these in South America are also WHITE and/or may claim that even if they have a bot of mixed blood.

    Darker skin does not equal “black cultural background” when we should know by now “black” = AA = descendant of former slaves. You can’t assume anyone with darker skin will identify with the AA life experience; some may in fact he prejudiced against AA people, if for no other reason than being lumped in with them (because of skin tone) has brought them grief.

    Anyway, whatever she says, good on her for not hiding.

    • She is black by American legal standards. So-called “mixed” people cannot be white in America. And Scandinavians don’t consider Italians and Greeks white either. White changes depending on the geopolitical needs of the people in question. In the United States, however, race is a caste system where you are either black or white. Those who are neither or FOREIGNERS.

      • She is black by American legal standards. So-called “mixed” people cannot be white in America. And Scandinavians don’t consider Italians and Greeks white either. White changes depending on the geopolitical needs of the people in question. In the United States, however, race is a caste system where you are either black or white. Those who are neither are FOREIGNERS.

        Just in case people do not understand this. Brown, red, yellow, green or purple are not on US census forms. Only black and white, denoting the caste system. Everything is an FOREIGN designation..

        • lurker says:

          Our problem is that race is largely a social construction, and our categories are not mutually exclusive. Our data-tracking interests are frequently emergent and overlapping. There may be valid demographic interests, for instance, in tracking people who have recently immigrated from Somalia distinct from others who are black or African-American. Similarly, identification of those with Hispanic heritage (a wide range in itself) doesnot take into account a variety of racial backgrounds.

          • Hispanic is a foreign designation. It denotes an ethnicity, but is not correlated LEGALLY with brown. Hispanics are still required to choose between black or white. African-American (which is not even an ethnic designation, both Africa and America are continents not languages, countries or cultures) is just a 21st century term for Negro which is Spanish for black. People are confused in this country because they don’t understand that were are dealing with LEGAL categories.

        • cielo62 says:

          already been said~ you are partly correct. It includes White, Black, African America, Negro or Other _________ . I don’t know WHY there are THREE designations for black folks, but the Fill in the Blank is where anyone could self-identify.


          • already been said~ you are partly correct. It includes White, Black, African America, Negro or Other _________ .

            “Other” is like a Buddhist checking off n/a in the Hindu caste system. It means FOREIGN.

            I don’t know WHY there are THREE designations for black folks, but the Fill in the Blank is where anyone could self-identify

            That was addressed above. Repeating:

            African-American (which is not even an ethnic designation, both Africa and America are continents not languages, countries or cultures) is just a 21st century term for Negro which is Spanish for black. People are confused in this country because they don’t understand that were are dealing with LEGAL categories.

            Obfuscation of terms does not help us. There is a reason why Barack Obama calls himself African-American and not “Other.”

    • fauxmccoy says:

      when i heard her during voir dire, her speech reminded me very much of a dear friend and former roommate who was from puerto rico originally. she looked black and spoke spanish with ease. my friend definitely considered herself to be black. tweets throughout the trial reinforced that impression. now, how this woman self identifies could be anything, maybe we’ll find out.

    • concernedczen says:

      She looks black.

    • Jasmine says:

      She may be from Latin America and from what I have learned most identify as white or white-Hispanic on their forms. I learned about this in a class that I took about race in America about 2 years ago. As far as American legal standards. whatever she puts on her forms is what the government goes by not what we think about her physical appearance.
      There was a girl in an English class that I took. She was tan with curly blondish-brown hair. It is usually what you may see on a light-skinned black person who has one parent with blond hair. Anyway this white guy asked what inferior race she was from….I blinked at him because this was an unusual thing to say, you know, out loud. And do you know what she said? Her father is French and her mother is German. She was not mixed with Black, as far as she knows, at all. So you cannot go with appearance all the time.

      • cielo62 says:

        Jasmine~ And I hope he popped him in the eye for being such a rude bastard.


        • Jasmine says:

          Man I sure would have. I couldn’t believe it but apparently she wasn’t offended and he did apologize after the class was over and I am sure he felt pretty darn stupid.

  37. J4TMinATL says:


  38. MDH says:

    Ever notice how Zimmerbots feel threatened by what could be?

    “Well, GZ had every right to suspect Trayvon because he could have been a burglar.”

    “I better not show my face because some harm could come to me.”

    “That concrete could have been a lethal weapon.”

    And I bet a lot of Zimmerbots have a “these colors don’t run” bumper sticker.

    • ks says:

      Heh. Classic keyboard warriors. I’m still somewhat amazed that the “twinkie defense”…concrete as a weapon…worked on anybody. You REALLY have to be far gone to GZ land to even seriously consider what should have been laughed out of court.

      But I guess this is one of the many sad things about this case. GZ got every benefit of every possible doubt no matter how absurd and, sadly, TM didn’t get the benefit of any doubt no matter how reasonable.

      • Drew says:

        Literally anyone outside can use concrete as a weapon. No one will ever be convicted of murder unless it occurs indoors.

    • betterhalf says:


    • fauxmccoy says:

      @MDH — i am convinced that like zimmerman himself, his supporters only operate at the most basic of brain activity; that is the same functions of a lizard — eat, sleep, breathe, drink, and fear.

      • cielo62 says:

        faux mccoy~ don’t forget “fuck.” Unfortunately, they keep reproducing more scum like them to poison our world.


    • cielo62 says:

      MDH~ I bet they do. But THEIR colors run YELLOW!


  39. Tee says:

    I was reading the discovery on the Dunn case and read that the back doors were on child lock and that Jordan couldn’t have let his window down to point a gun out of it because his window did not work, only the driver could control the windows in the car. So his statements both were false about the window rolling down and a shot gun being put out of it and that the boys were exiting the Vehicle, since the doors have to be open from the outside.

    • dianetrotter says:

      I hope John Guy has fine tuned his case based on what happened in Zimmerman case. I would feel so much like a failure that I would probably quit my job. This is a stressful job.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      tee — i don’t know if you have read all of it. yes, it does say that the back doors had the child locks on and had to be opened from the rear (although this conflicts with the condition the police noted when the car was impounded). the occupants of the durango also stated that while the windows could only be operated by the driver, that jordan’s window was down.

      what is indisputable is that there was no weapon nor anything that looked like one. dunn and other racists try to claim that because the durango left for a few seconds to escape from dunn that they stashed their weapon — the only issue to that is there were several witnesses who said they saw no such thing. no weapon was ever recovered at the scene, during searches of the area or in the car. dunn either imagined it or just made the whole damn thing up.

  40. aussie says:


    “Portions of the discussion will air on Thursday evening’s “ABC World News with Diane Sawyer” and “Nightline.””

    Prediction from a poster on HuffPo: she will be anti-Zimmerman because anyone pro-Zimmerman is afraid of being threatened.

    • ks says:

      I’m not surprised by the HuffPo poster’s spin as it seems that this “in hiding” nonsense has developed into a strange GZ narrative which, if you think about it, is hilarious when you consider that the killer himself is still “in hiding” in the very same neighborhood as before and that ther rest of the crazy clan claims to be “in hiding” despite making numerous appearances on tv.

      • concernedczen says:

        Very curious why she has an attorney. Will she claim she was pressured to make her verdict and under duress?

  41. dianetrotter says:

    If I were a betting person, I would saw B37 controlled the jury by whatever means necessary. She thought she spoke for everyone when she prepared to write her book. She may not have been strong enoough to resist the pressure. I had to take myself to another place to close out the taunts.

  42. concernedczen says:

    I hope B29’s lawyer talks about how Judge Nelson purposefully left out important parts of the SYG law in her jury instructions

    i.e. left out the part about how an aggressor has a duty to retreat.

  43. sparger says:

    Well at least this juror is n’t hiding her face.

  44. concernedczen says:

    So B29 is black, but I’m betting she doesn’t identify as black. Either way, shame on her for letting this injustice occur.

    • Jasmine says:

      She may be from Latin America and from what I have learned most identify as white or white-Hispanic on their forms. It was a class that I took about race in America about 2 years ago.

    • riisey007 says:

      I really don’t get why these jurors are coming forward!!

  45. Judy75201 says:

    I can’t wait to see the B29 interview.

  46. dianetrotter says:

    @RobinRoberts : Just interviewed juror from Zimmerman trial. No shadows to hide her identity. New insight about verdict. Tonight @ABCWorldNews & tmrw @GMA. 3 min

  47. Michael says:

    Q from Australia
    I am reading that GZ might not have to testify in civil trail because of the threat of civil rights trial.

    T or F

    • roderick2012 says:

      @Michael, I don’t understand what one has to do with the other.

      The DOJ just won’t be able to use any of his testimony from a civil trial.

      Furthermore the burden of proof in a civil trial is much lower than beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial so the Martin family lawyers should be able to win by introducing George’s police interviews and presenting how impossible his story about that night was.

      • bettykath says:

        iirc, he will have to testify in a civil trial, but in a civil rights trial with is a criminal trial. It looks like the Martins will wait until the DoJ makes up its mind.

    • Malisha says:

      He can stand there and say “I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incriminate myself” but in a civil action, that can lead to a presumption against him.

  48. fauxmccoy says:

    tweet from joy ann reid

    Me 2 but credit where it’s due. “@Tpa_ismyhome: B29 talking 2 robin roberts today. Wldve loved u to get that interview. will b interesting”

    now, to figure out who robin roberts is and tune in (am not a regular tv viewer — any hints would help)

  49. Trained Observer says:

    Here’s more complaining from O’Mara, who seems to have whine-time on his hands. .

    From SLATE:

    George Zimmerman found his name back in the headlines earlier this week once word got out that he helped rescue a family of four

    from a rolled-over SUV in Florida. The news was a rare bit of good PR for the one-time neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, and who has more or less been in hiding since he was acquitted of second-degree murder earlier this month. But it looks like Zimmerman won’t get the chance to double up on any goodwill from his good deed. ABC News with the details:

    The family rescued by George Zimmerman … canceled a scheduled news conference today and is pleading for privacy. Zimmerman was one of two men who came to the aid of Dana and Mark Gerstle and their two children, who were trapped inside a blue Ford Explorer SUV that had rolled over after traveling off the highway in Sanford, Fla., about 5:45 p.m. Thursday, the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement.

    The Gerstles were expected to hold a press conference today at the office of Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara, but canceled a few hours before it was supposed to take place. “They have expressed to us that they are not comfortable doing media interviews at this time and they continue to ask for privacy,” the Seminole City Sheriff’s Office said in a statement.

    O’Mara says that the Gerstles had originally wanted to take part in the press conference but ultimately backed out due to their fears of “blow back from saying anything that would be favorable” to Zimmerman. “That’s really sad, you know, that they can’t even say that George did something good for them because people out there believe that he’s so toxic even though he’s been acquitted,” O’Mara said in a press gaggle recorded by Orlando’s WESH.

    O’Mara also addressed any skeptics that doubt the authenticity of the accident. “Those who want to believe it was staged, they can go right ahead and believe that, they can believe the earth is still flat,” he said. “I will acknowledge it was coincidental four or five days after the verdict, but it was not set up, or staged. Really, do you think we would’ve set up a family of four on the side (of the road), destroying an SUV?”

    • Beverly says:

      Omara should be careful what he asks…no end to what Zim may do. Wonder how he might honestly answer his own question.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Trained Observer,
      Mom Said: ” do you think we would’ve set up a family of four on the side (of the road), destroying an SUV?”

      Simple answer, Yes! MOM would pimp his own mother to make the Fogdoit look good…..

    • ks says:

      Oh please, MOM is just mad that his latest pr stunt fell flat. Whatever accident there was, was clearly not what they were trying to blow it up into.

    • Girlp says:

      Yes O’Mara I really do believe you would have set this up, where is it reported the SUV was destroyed? Remember in court during the hearings what was his phrase “TRUST ME”, he wanted the addresses and phone numbers to hand over to CTH and DaddyZ really bad.

      • lurker says:

        And trying to rope the ‘rescuees’ into Z’s mess via a press conference isn’t staging.

        How come O’Mara is only ever concerned about ‘blow back’ on folks who are helping team gz? Not folks like Rachel or Trayvon’s family?

        • Girlp says:

          Why say anything at all he won the trial…I suspect either he wants more money from the pointy hat people or he positioning Zimmerman for a civil trail…I don’t anything he can do with the DOJ as they can ambush them he was worried during the hearings that the DOJ had something on the police working the case and on Zimmerman he tried to find out and discovered he couldn’t get anything much. Of course he had to complete the proper forms and such but we all know he is too lazy to do that.

    • deetruth says:

      I think O’Mara is misreading this family. They are probably more concerned about not getting caught up in O’Mara’s agenda than not wanting to be associated with George. Anyway, who holds a press conference after a one car accident where no one got hurt. it’s not that newsworthy. Happens somewhere every few seconds. O’Mara just wants to pimp “Al Things George” for his own celebrity.

    • riisey007 says:

      O’mara needs to stfu, I am so sick of him talking all the time. Somebody get a gag order against him already. Damn!!

    • Wanna says:

      MOM is trying to paint Fogen as a equal opportunity butinski we we all know who he is, a child murderer.

  50. MDH says:

    White people guilty of a crime blaming it on blacks and having the PD find those blacks has a long and sordid history in the USA.

    It is another aspect of binary justice in the USA.

    For a black person it is always you are guilty and have to prove your innocence vs. the white standard of presumed innocent.

    And this was a factor in no justice being given to Trayvon Martin. The jurors presumed he was guilty of attacking Georgie cream puff and the evidence did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not. How F’cked up is that?

    • Jasmine says:

      It is pretty messed up. Trayvon was guilty and he isn’t here to prove his innocence. It has been this way and I am sure that we have a long, long, long, long way in order to stop this. Isn’t that what stop and frisk is all about. It is ‘hmmm I think you are guilty, you certainly look guilty to me so YOU have to prove me wrong’ and it is legal in New York. I suppose they think that they aren’t a part of the USA.

      • MDH says:

        Stop and frisk is exactly that.

        And the proponents of this outrage are the first to argue that the USA was founded by white Christian males. That is not correct. Law, in the USA is supposed to be based on English common law {Thomas Jefferson wrote a long essay on this subject. He also noted that there was very little in English common law that was Christian} and one of the features of English common law is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

        The outrage is that people without white skin color were not and are still not given this fundamental right.

        However, Black Americans have been a part of American culture for as long as there has been an America. People with white or light skin have come to this country have quickly been given a fundamental right not given to people with dark skin tone who may or may not have been on this land for scores of generations.

        And this last remark was directed at Georgie cream puff.

        How many of the USA’s wars did your relatives shed blood in, George?

        How many did Trayvon’s?

        Absent the Native American, who is more American than a Black American?

        So a big F U to any person who states that “white” has anything to do with being American.

        As far as I can tell, it is largely “whites” who are making a mockery out of our system of justice.

        Time for this to stop.

  51. aussie says:

    I think we need to keep looking at the Santiago baby-murder too. The victim does not have to be the dead guy — innocents wrongly charged are victims, too. More so in a way, as they face a lifetime of imprisonment, while someone killed, rightly or wrongly, is already dead and can’t suffer any more.

    It is interesting that the police did do the right thing to the point of checking both parents for gunshot residue. Then what happened? they find residue so right away go looking for outsiders as the killers? how does that figure?

  52. Good morning, everyone.

    • MDH says:

      These laws enable paranoid delusional people to actively confront {bait} sane people in order to kill them because they were “standing their ground” in the face of logical resistance or ire by the sane person being unlawfully deprived of their fourth amendment rights.

      I think that there should at least be laws put on the books that specify that an armed person who approaches an unarmed person under the guise of false accusations wherein a conflict arises that results in the death of the unarmed person be guilty of murder.

      Shoot first laws really should be called “bait and kill”.

      • ks says:

        Yes and that’s the really scary part that a lot of people are overlooking. It’s being enshrined that you can actively provoke a stranger based on your own craziness and then shoot them if they respond in a way, apparently physicallly or not, you claim is threatening. Insane.

      • ks says:

        To add to that, you can actively provoke a stranger who is minding his/her business and doing nothing wrong…

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Soon, very soon, you won’t be able to go anywhere in a SYG state without being armed. When the shooting starts and people shoot back, the question will be, where to the stray bullets go? Into the body of uninterested parties of course. No one will be able to go to any business that has a large gathering, like restaurants and big box stores, hotels and theaters etc., just too much danger lurking everywhere. Then, perhaps they’ll reconsider these laws, but by then there won’t be any quick turn around back to norms.

          Remember, the dangers these laws present is only just beginning to grow.

      • Malisha says:

        Bait and kill! BRILLIANT!

  53. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Here is the discovery in the Michael Dunn case with all of the evidence:


  54. anita says:

    Thank You so very much, Lonnie You brought this Lady, This heroines Birthday to all of our attention. This Lady was screwed over, she was robbed by two scum of the earth men,& forever after, they trashed her? The world is , I do believe , a fucking ghetto.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I read her story a long time ago, it is heart rendering and sick! Anyone who knows the pain and suffering of working on a project, day after day, hour after lonely hour, month in and month out for years at a time, struggling to get it right the next time. Searching for funds, explaining errors and failures and always more sacrifice to be made. Then to have it all stolen away and even worse, those taking the accolades that are rightly yours, demeaning you, your efforts your work and yourself from their newly acquired perches atop the pinnacles of academia, is a truly life taking stab through the heart!

      Yet these men thought nothing of it! Even though they were finally discovered and their reputations trashed, they still have those fond memories of years that should have been hers! It leaves me thoroughly disgusted!

  55. Lonnie Starr says:

    Calling all bloggers: Today is Rosalind Franklin’s birthday she was the British biophysicist and X-ray crystallographer who made THE critical contributions to the understanding the structure of the dna molecule. Her years of tedious, daunting and tireless work was then taken, without her permission, and used by two other men, who, not only took the bows and accolades for it, but disparaged her to no end. Do a post in her honor, she more than deserves it. Thanks.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Birthday greetings to Rosalind Franklin. Hope she eventually gets her due.

    • bettykath says:

      I remember her story. It seems to be fairly routine. I often had assignments to go into chaos, bring order to the project and then, just before it was time for credit to be given, some guy on the “in” would be brought in to take the credit. One time, a guy messed up royally. His work was totally trashed in a review. I picked it up, spent some time bringing order than a couple of years bringing it in on time and, well, you know who got the big bonus and all the publicity for a job well done. clue: it was me. It was the jerk who messed it up in the first place and who didn’t do a lick of work to make it successful. Big deal for me, but nowhere near the rip off of Franklin’s work.

  56. KateW says:

    “Before going back in lurking mode, some of my friends ask why, as a french middle-age women, I’m so invested in Trayvon story, my answer is that we are all citizen of this world, I have family, friends leaving in the USA, Trayvon could have been a friend of my son.All voices are important for fighting for justice”

    I love this!

    • anita says:

      Kate W you are making me cry. i’m a white, middle aged american girl. [the girl kinda softens everything] I remember you, Kate & your comments. Not specifically, all your comments, but your train of thought. I’m so tired & pretty drunk, who says ‘pretty drunk’? Good nite all

      • anita says:

        Sometimes, I see Trayvon in a dream.I wish I could’ve known that nice, good lookin’, decent kid.I don’t even know what else to say. May God & Jesus Christ Bless his Soul

  57. Manue says:

    I will follow this case as I did for Trayvon.

    See, my first trip to America was in July 1980, I went to Miami to spend all summer with my best friend and her family, a “normal” french middle-class white people who came to start a buisness (a french bakery) a few month earlier. For me America was a dream, the land of freedom, I was so excited and even thought about staying there and work with them.
    I didn’t know anything about racism in the USA, riots, and I was surprised when the 1st thing my friend showed me was a gun, hidden under the seat of the car…then she told me that Miami was like a war zone and all black people wanted to kill all the white…that was just the beginning, at home they were loaded guns everywhere, in dressers, under beds, all around the house. The next day they brought me to the firing range, as I might have to defend myself against the “Big Black Man”.
    My family were hunters and I was familiar with shotguns and all I was seeing was against what my father had teach me about security. They had guns to kill people but overall, black people.

    After one week,I was feeling uneasy with this family I thought I knew.

    I started to see them as paranoids but at the same time, even if I hadn’t seen any violence or problems, insidiously I started to be afraid when crossing black people. Happily or unfortunatly the second week, I got almost shot by my mother’s friend when I went to take a glass of water at night.
    I had had enough, in the morning I went to book a flight to New-York, spend a very enjoyable week there before fleeing back to France, a month earlier that it was planned ( at least, in NY I could glance at the America that attracted me.)
    There was no internet at this time, my english was very very poor and back home, I had to check what was going on in Miami:
    AndI was stunned, it was not at all what I’ve been told by my friends, the story was (again) starting for a miscariage of justice.

    I still wonder those days how a whole family could have become crazy gunners, blind racists in less than a year in Florida. Probaly I was too young before to see them like they were or they have been brainwhashed… Miami was quiet, riots were over but they were scared, deadly scared

    That was the end of a long friendship, I never heard from them again..I should have not tell I was more afraid by them and their guns that by the “Big Black Guy”

    And now I realized nothing has changed , at least in Florida, if my mother friend had shot me instead of the fridge and SYG law existed at this time, she could have walk…(may be not as i’m white!).

    Before going back in lurking mode, some of my friends ask why, as a french middle-age women, I’m so invested in Trayvon story, my answer is that we are all citizen of this world, I have family, friends leaving in the USA, Trayvon could have been a friend of my son.All voices are important for fighting for justice

    • KateW says:

      First of all, I am glad you got the heck out of there. Second, how could a whole family become “crazy gunners, blind racists in less than a year”, the same way they tainted you and you began to be afraid. Fear and paranoia breed fear and paranoia, so they must have gotten it from others or what they had seen. What you saw is not the America I know as well. I came from a military family. So we traveled quite a bit. I have to be thankful for that because I got to see the world and be around so many different cultures and speak multiple languages. Seeing the world teaches you to be tolerant and allows you to see the bigger picture. But lets be real, racism is everywhere, even in France I am sure. However, when children are influenced early to be tolerant and judge people by their merits instead of their skin color then the world grows.

      • Manue says:

        Thank you Kate, I totally agree with you; of course racism is well established in France,and just looking at the comments on Trayvon’s murder here, we have the same nasty, bigoted, small minded racists crawling out their holes to spit their hate of black and maghrebin people.

        And I can’t agree more with your words :

        “I got to see the world and be around so many different cultures and speak multiple languages. Seeing the world teaches you to be tolerant and allows you to see the bigger picture.”

        I had the same chance and wish it could be possible for all children, a great lesson of life.
        I hope I did enough to teach my son about tolerance, compassion but also critical-thinking which seems to be cruelly lacking in some people.

  58. fauxmccoy says:

    oh holy cow, michael dunn, mr nun chuck numbnutz in action…. the jordan davis killing was not his first exposure to national media. i remember this event. you seriously have to question what is wrong with this dude’s mind and how it is that he has both a pilot’s license and a ccw permit.


  59. Ms.X says:


    They are on the 3rd judge. I’m worried that Angela Corey is the lead prosecutor.

  60. Rob says:

    I was telling you guys before the trial started he was going to be found not guilty, not because he’s innocent, it’s because florida is still stuck in the 60’s a black life means little to nothing down here, the prosecution didn’t care about this case it was to soothe over race tension, but what’s strange is alot of you people on here was saying how good the state was doing until the verdict came out and then you blast the state.

  61. boyd says:

    never give up. I’m not the most articulate person on this site .

    let me tell you a little bit about my background that made me.

    My dad, ran away from home, age 14 and joined the US Marines in 1942. By 16 (ABOUT TRAYVON;S AGE) was in the battle of okinawa and wounded. In 1951 he was wounded in Korea,
    He was in the second group I think at Mountford point, NC. 1942 from photos
    At Okinawa he was chosen to do “stretcher duty”, with tunnel complexes, snipers, and mortar fire they were hit all the time, my dad told me to paraphrase ” if we were to drop a wounded white soldier and run for it, you would never hear the end of it:,

    They laid their bodies over all those men. my dad said this to a friend, I was hiding behind a couchMIm bringing this up because it’s a long forgotten history in america

    in the midst of all of that my dad only ever said 1 racial type
    remaRK to me ever “who ever said life was fair?” most important lessonI learned. second best lesson was my boxing grandfather, thats for another day.

    For you women, dad was as tough with girls, I HAVE 5 sisters , today 2 sisters are LT. COLS in marines and army. take no sheet, not even from me lol!


    • fauxmccoy says:

      thanks boyd,, for telling us a bit about yourself. it kind of sounds like home. i look forward to hearing about your grandfather.

    • anita says:

      Hey Boyd, I’ve been silent for 1 wk. You are one of my favorites. Forget about being one of “the most articulates” here. I have stories too, about the Pacific & Iwo Jima. An uncle in-law survived Iwo Jima. He was a marine , of course, but also a republican. Also my Dad’s 1st cousin was a prisoner of the nazis for almost 3yrs. My Mom’s older bro.,in WW2 no I can’t talk about . Now, my cousins’ son is a captain in the Army. I can’t remember what I’ve typed to you, but I remember you’re 1 of my favs.If I have time, I’ll go back & try to search for what it is that makes me remember you. No, seriously, if I wasn’t drunk right now, I would remember. Don’t ever sell yourself short about the “articulate” stuff.

      • anita says:

        Hey Boyd, I hope you see my reply, ’cause it’s so many hours later. You have a true realness about you,me too. Whatever, I’m so tired, gotta go now. Take Care

    • Malisha says:

      I appreciate you, Boyd. Thank you for your kind words.

    • Elijah says:

      Excellent Boyd. Thank you Elijah

  62. Elijah says:

    I’ll definitely keep reading & contributing. Gonna read my wiki on this case tonite. However, there’s just something so extraordinarily compelling & personal about the TM case. In general society I shy from talking politics or issues. So thank all of you on this blog, all the commenters, Frederick & Crane. It would have been a lonely ride after that hateful verdict without this place. Keep posting!!

  63. KateW says:

    But Professor we have been advocating for other victims of crime. Since this verdict, my social media has been abuzz with information and cry for justice for all victims of crime. Chavis Carter, Marissa Alexander, Antonio Santiago and many more. Antonio Santiago was the infant shot while his mother was taking the kid for a walk in his stroller. She claimed it was 2 black teens that shot her infant in the face and shot her in the leg. However, after the shooting she then asks how soon she would be able to get the life insurance check. There are all sorts of red flags here and they are saying this case is akin to Susan Smith. There may be new evidence in the case that the mother was the culprit.


    But let me say, I will never stop talking about getting justice for Trayvon Martin and all victims of crime. I am still very angry about that verdict and I want action taken and in the meantime, I am also seeking justice for other victims of crime and injustice due to our slanted judicial system.

  64. concernedczen says:

    Another question about the alleged accident:

    “Question: Don’t police reports NORMALLY list EVERYONE that occupied the vehicle?

    Like – the kids in the back seat?

    So, where’s the documenting of kids being in the vehicle? Or are we going on somebody’s word?”

    • KateW says:

      It was a farce. Helping someone out of a vehicle, that were already exiting a vehicle is not “rescuing” anyone and he cannot atone for what he has done by murdering an innocent Black child by some fake rescue mission. The people that were helped out of the vehicle don’t want to be associated with him.

  65. concernedczen says:

    Did the couple in the supposed accident go to the ER with their children? Surely, if there was really a flip-over accident, they went to the ER via ambulance. There should be records of it.

  66. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I certainly will be reading your articles on the Dunn case, Professor.

    I also like the idea of keeping an eye on the other cases that our group has suggested.

    Hello, all, hope you are doing well!

  67. endlessummer76 says:

    Professor, could you take a few minutes and explain the anomalies with SYG as applied to the trial? None of the news media seem to have a handle on what actually happened in regards to SYG and this case. If I am understanding it correctly, M’OM waived a SYG immunity hearing, which if it had been held and ruled in his favor, there would not have been a trial. Most people seemed to think that because of this, SYG did not apply, but according to Juror B 37, SYG did apply, and the jury instructions included the language from SYG, is this correct?

    Additionally, M’OM is claiming they will have an immunity hearing after the fact, that if ruled in their favor, will give Trayvon’s killer immunity from any civil suits. Can you expound on this?

    I believe Trayvon’s legacy can be to stop this descent into a violent dystopia where the only way to resolve problems is with a gun. I have been contacting all of the legislators in FL who voted for this law and asking them if the intent of this law was for someone to be able to start an altercation with someone who wasn’t bothering them, then to kill them because they became afraid? Because that is the way the court has interpreted this law and that is so messed up it’s hard to even comprehend. So far no responses, but I am going to keep at it.

  68. Deborah says:

    Did you guys see this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLgt4faeZdQ Another SYG case in Texas. Woman shot a man at a gas station and just got in her car and drove away.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Oh, my dear these gun nuts are going bat shit crazy every where. In Tennessee a seventy two year old woman, shot at a car with two adults and FIVE kids in it just because they pulled into her driveway to turn around. these SYG laws are making some folks act as if this is the days of the wild west. BTW, they are also making people act uncivilized as well.

      • Tee says:

        I don’t like guns but I can’t say much about this situation, he did attack her, he did have a knife, and she didn’t point the gun at him at first she pointed it at the ground until he attacked her. She’s a woman & he could have killed her.

        • Deborah says:

          Tee she could have gotten in her car and drove away. It almost seemed to me like she was encouraging the confrontation. I shudder to think that everyone is going to start acting like this just because they have a gun. What if he had a gun too?? What if they both started shooting with innocent bystanders nearby? Is this the way we really want society to be?

          • roderick2012 says:

            Completely agree Deborah.

            When did it become a sin to walk away from a confrontation?

            I could have understood if she were dependent on public transportation and didn’t have anywhere to flee ( going into the gas station) but she had the safety of a vehicle and a vehicle can be a deadly weapon when used in that capacity so what was her excuse?

            If I am not mistaken she retrieved the gun (rifle) from her trunk.

            Is she freaking GI Jane or a female Dirty Harry looking for an excuse to have her day made?

            This world is going to hell with an AK47 strapped to it.

          • Tee says:

            We will disagree on this one she protected herself and by looking at the video you can tell that she was telling this man to back off of her. She pointed her gun to the ground, it doesn’t take my mind far to see her pointing & tell him to back off. Had she turned her back on that man he could have done more than hit her the way he did. It seems as if he wanted to die that day, she had the gun in her hand and he still hit her almost knocking her down, what would we have, her been stabbed?

          • cielo62 says:

            Deborah~ Apparently the man had followed her there from another nearby area where he had been making sexual propositions, I guess he judged her “career.” She “might” indeed have hoped for a confrontation. Nothing more satisfying than shooting a sexist jerk. Emotions were high all the way around. Too many “ifs”. Again, this is Houston, She will be No Billed.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          tee — i do not mind saying that if anyone makes a move toward me with a blade, they have just bet their life that i am not better armed.

        • aussie says:

          On the other hand Marissa Alexander who fired a warning shot at her abusive husband in her own home after he’d already attacked her, got 20 years.

          The lesson: don’t try to warn an attacker. Kill ’em dead, that is SYG.

          Actually it’s a problem the way the law is written, allowing “deadly force” without mentioning that is the maximum. Under normal laws you are allowed to use only reasonable force to defend yourself. The way the law is written,it looks like deadly force is the ONLY self-defence available. (Which is why Trayvon could not avail himself of SYG because he wasn’t equipped to use deadly force). (snark).

  69. Yorazigo says:

    My question, Professor or other legal eagles:

    If indeed BDLR and Corey, Jax, Seminole, Sanford and other state entities are so corrupt in FL, can US DOJ do anything, or is this strictly a state problem?

    • Girlp says:

      Yora the Feds took over a city jail one county over from me they were feeding their inmates food labeled not fit for human consumption and was looking to take over the county jail here as well for mistreatment of inmates.

      • lurker says:

        I would imagine it will depend on how blatant any corruption is and what kind of proof can be found.

        One of the really insidious things about racism is that it is systemic and frequently unconscious. Hard to come up with so much as a nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

    • cielo62 says:

      Deborah~ It’s a bad part of Houston. She won’t even be indicted.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i can assure you that i would have done the same thing, with the exception of leaving the scene. anyone who approaches me with a blade has just made a very bad bet with their life. i beat the crap out of some dude in a san francisco alley behind my work place who had tried to rob a cab, knifed the driver and they were blocking the alley. i always carried a 2 foot pipe in my car that my dad and i filled with cement. i yelled for my boyfriend to go call 911 then chased the dude down, wearing a damn hippie skirt, backed him into a doorway, he pulled a knife, i busted his arm and waited for the cops.

        i have no doubt i broke his arm and would do it again if i had to. the cops cautioned me that it was not the wisest move on my part, but that it was very brave. i didn’t feel i had much choice when i saw the cab driver stabbed in multiple locations, i wanted that bastard busted one way or another. i will not ever instigate anything except with choice words, but i’ll be damned if i’ll let myself or family become victims.

        after viewing that video, i cannot fault that woman either.

  70. Deborah says:

    I have to ask. Does anyone doubt that this is exactly how the events were orchestrated the night that Trayvon was murdered? I am disgusted so many fell for the lies.

    • Malisha says:

      Deborah, Tim Smith and Fogen had 2/26/2012 set up so that Fogen could bring in his “criminal” and get famous all over town and become a cop. What went wrong? The supporting role was supposed to be played by a throw-away Black thug and Trayvon Martin didn’t agree to play that role. Had to kill him.

      • Deborah says:

        I think you are right Malisha. All of them were in it together. Will anything be done to clean out that den of corruption/.

      • @Malisha
        “What went wrong? The supporting role was supposed to be played by a throw-away Black thug and Trayvon Martin didn’t agree to play that role. Had to kill him.”

        As was meant by Z saying “I didn’t have anymore time”?

        “I am disgusted so many fell for the lies.”

        Straight from the OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation) playbook:

        This and similar lines in Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf about what he claimed to be a strategem of Jewish lies using “the principle & which is quite true in itself & that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily,” are often misquoted or paraphrased as: “The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.”

    • Girlp says:

      I took a look see at Officer Rehder page he is an extremist most likely bigoted and now has posted a couple of pics of Zimmerman and posted something about the accident his page is not blocked. I figured this was staged poor weak Zimmerman just laid their and took a pounding but now he’s able to lift a 250lb man out of a SUV that less than a week later has no signs of damage that I could see (dailyuk has pictures as well). My car was barely wrecked and it took them 2 weeks to fix it. No way that car rolled over with no damage.

  71. Tee says:

    Professor, I was just watching the Sneiderman case in Georgia, where the prosecution just dropped the charges of murder against her. It seems that the way the justice system is set up it only protect the defendant. It seems easier to acquit a guilty person than an innocent one. I’m learning really fast that our justice system
    don’t damn work. It’s ok to drag the victim through the mud, tarnish them but the defendant is protected. She called the man 10 mins after he killed her husband, told people he was dead before she was to suppose to know that he had been killed, yet no murder charges. GZ follows Trayvon confront him ( his words, ” I walked back to him.”) but he walk. Even Crane’s case, what I have read of it, damn is there no justice for the innocent!

  72. bear says:

    Looking forward to this trial and Shellies.

  73. Xena says:

    Attorney John Phillips, who represents Jordan Davis’ parents on civil actions against Dunn, blogs at the following website, in which this link will take you to part 3 of a series he wrote about Michael Dunn.


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for the link, Xena.

      Guess I will now need to pay close attention to this case. I did not think I would be reading into the evidence of another case again….didn’t think I would have the same kind of time energy and time…..but this is so necessary…..we are called.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        My battle cry:

        “Until the killing of Black men, Black mothers’ sons
        Is as IMPORTANT as
        the killing of White men, White mothers’ sons

        “We who believe in freedom cannot rest
        We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes”

        These lines from this song:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • Xena says:

        @Yahtc. Attorney John Phillips came over to dothprotesttoomuch months ago. I subscribed to his blog and have tried keeping up with the case, including the wrongful death civil suit he has filed on behalf of the Estate of Jordan Davis.

        When the verdict in GZ’s case was announced, Jordan’s mom contacted Phillips wanting to know if Dunn was going to also get off.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          Thanks, for info and the statement you just posted.

          I am so glad to hear (and applaud you) that you are up to date on this case.
          I see you that you posted a comment back in the Spring at that blog link with the evidence that I posted below.

          You are amazing in the way that you keep up with so much!

          • Xena says:


            You are amazing in the way that you keep up with so much!

            Bless your heart. I don’t think of myself as amazing — just a person with interest in courts and the law. When people, especially teens and young people, are killed because of the color of their skin, that adds to my motivation.

            I’m trying to get the 911 calls in the Dunn case on video.

        • trayvonstruth says:

          Yes he did come to our blog for a guest post. I had a great opinion about Mr. Phillips in the beginning when he first came on the scene, not so much now. It’s amazing what getting bit by the TV bug can do to some people.

          Hope everyone is well today. 🙂

          • Xena says:


            I had a great opinion about Mr. Phillips in the beginning when he first came on the scene, not so much now.

            It appears that he is trying to put Trayvon and Jordan into different classes rather than both being unarmed teens. His strategy appears to be that if he can present Jordan as being good enough that the jury in Dunn’s case will have no reason to believe that Jordan deserved to die.

            That’s dangerous, because a victim is a victim is a victim and to White Supremacists, no Black person is ever good enough to live and particularly, if they do not submit to the desires of a White man.

    • riisey007 says:


    • Malisha says:

      I believe every word of it.
      BDLR and Corey are corrupt. Dirty prosecutors.

      I just came from having tea with an 81 year old widow of a Navy Admiral. She was shocked to see Judge Nelson’s expression of glee when reading the verdict and disbanding the trial. She had never heard of “duping delight” and when I described it to her, she said, “You KNOW I am SO GLAD somebody explained that to me because it kept bothering me that she was so inappropriate!”

  74. fauxmccoy says:

    i have posted before about the charges of M1 and wondering where the premeditation occurred. some have responded that dunn returned to his vehicle to get his 9 mm. that did not occur, the discovery linked to above indicate that the first 4-5 shots were made from his vehicle and dunn only exited his vehicle as the teens attempted to escape to shoot another 4-5 shots from a magazine which holds 15.

    further research shows that corey did take this case to a grand jury, unlike the zimmerman case, and the grand jury increased the charge from M2 (which i would expect) to M1 along with 3 counts of attempted murder. i did wonder how the M1 charge was determined — although i know that the ‘premeditation’ phase need only be a few seconds. i have not found any definitive statement about the change in charge from M1 to M2. one theory is that independent witness statements of dunn’s words to the teens before shooting (‘you’re not going to talk to me that way!’) may contribute. the other discovery i have made is that there are 2 versions of M1 within florida law (surprise, surprise — more peculiar florida laws). M1 in florida may include all that we know M2 to contain with the addition of premeditation OR it may be what is the common law ‘felony murder’ which has been codified as indicated in the link below.


    that said, i cannot see any successful SYG case here in light of all witness testimony. the fact that dunn fled the crime scene, went back to his hotel with his girlfriend and called for a pizza instead of the police surely does not help.

    both defendents tell spectacularly unbelievable tales and seem to think a lawyer is optional when talking to the fuzz as long as the victims are black.

    my research validates the professor’s that corey intends to prosecute personally (a recent development) with guy as second chair.

    • Girlp says:

      SYG does not apply in this case however there are cases in Florida where a shooter has said they felt they were in danger and a jury said the defendant was standing his ground. The part that is so ambiguous is “reasonably believes” exactly what is that? What is reasonable to one person may not be to another. However I am hoping since this went a Grand Jury and they recommend Murder 1 that Dunn be found guilty at least of M2. I am being cautious with this case, my cousin lives in Jacksonville from the things she’s said many there are as bigoted as those in Sanford. I am trying not to generalize I am sure there are whites in Sanford who would not have let Zimmerman get away however my cousin is not given to generalizations at all but she told her BF she would love to move back to Pittsburgh .

      • Tee says:

        SYG is exactly what he was will use. You have to understand that this is what GZ off, even if the defense doesn’t use it still applys when claiming self defense in fl. SYG is woven into the self defense claim, Judge Nelson wrote it plainly in the jury instructions. “There is no duty to retreat if the person has a right to be where they are and is not committing a crime.

      • Malisha says:

        “Reasonably believes” is just an official lie.

        Fogen had the opportunity to not chase after someone he feared; the police were on their way to take care of it. HE chased after someone before his “reasonable fear” kicked in? Um … no he didn’t. He chased after someone and said magic words afterwards to get away with murder. And he DID get away with murder.

        But when he kills again, no blandishments, no prayers, no elaborate public theater, no presidential or other speechifying, no cover-up of any dimension or form will keep this country from facing riots, rage, chaos, and possibly even violent attempts at revolutionary emancipation. We shall see when Fogen kills again.

        The Seminole County whites should be smarter than they are; enabling Fogen to kill again may get THEM into the kind of trouble they can’t get out of by any means at all. Because he cares about nobody but himself and when he kills again, he’s prepared to say it was God’s plan.

        • Girlp says:

          This is my fear for the Michael Dunn case, in some cases of self defense in Florida like Jordan and Trayvon there was no weapon they thought they were in danger not even a scratch…So here we are again having to pray the jurors will be reasonable and give Jordan justice. They are also deamonizing the driver of the Durango supposedly he has some type of felony and is on probation as though that is suppose to mean anything. In my state having four DUS’s is a felony. And there was no gun, the kids did not drive off and hide anything no one saw them hide anything and there were witnesses.

          • roderick2012 says:

            @ Girlp, I agree with you about the possible outcome of a not guilty verdict for Dunn on 1st degree murder charges.

            Although there will be at least one black on a jury of twelve I doubt that they will be able to get a unanimous verdict given the obvious white racist climate in Florida that the George Zimmerman trial uncovered.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            roderick — even though this is a M1 case, the prosecution is not seeking the death penalty, which means we are likely to have another 6 person florida jury …. again. i have been very outspoken regarding how wrong i think that is and it concerns me here, too.

            florida law states that a 12 person jury is only necessary for capital cases or if the defendant requests it. i cannot imagine any defense lawyer who would prefer having to convince 12 people over the much easier panel of 6 which can be manipulated much more handily.

          • roderick2012 says:

            Well damn!!

            Maybe I shouldn’t consider it a good sample but when I read the comment sections of some of these newspapers I get discouraged.

            Until about two months ago I would regularly read the comment section on the OS whenever they posted an article on Trayvon Martin and there were some really vile comments and unfortunately they were representative of the jury pool and ultimately the verdict, and that is what worries me about the Jordan Davis trial.

            I continue to see comments attempting to justify Dunn’s actions and it sickens me and makes me believe that Dunn could be set free just like Piglet.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @roderick — i know what you mean. i have purposefully ignored comments on sites such as that as well as my former beloved huffpost, it is just not worth the heartache. at first, i was shocked that such folks existed (or would be so bold to air their sick opinions). at this point, i know there is no reasoning with them and refuse to torture myself with their ignorance. i am always willing to confront racism and bigotry when encountered personally, but the internet is just not the place, unless you like beating your head against a brick wall.

          • cielo62 says:

            IF they actually GET the entire panoply of available charges, they will get Dunn on SOMETHING. That was another sneaky play, taking away Aggravated Assault from gz’s case. MAYBE they could have agreed on that one.

          • riisey007 says:

            The problem will come in where although they found no gun in the suv, there is a claim that the suv left and came back( Dunn claimed they pointed a gun at him..” in reasonably believes”). I don’t know how true that is because I can’t get a hold of the information that I got in the Zimmerman case. I am kinda lost and hope that some of you good people can help me find my way. Thanks

          • fauxmccoy says:

            the teens did take off when dunn started shooting, dunn got out of his car and shot 4-5 more bullets as the teens drove into a restaurant parking lot within the same shopping complex. dunn then fled the scene to his hotel room and ordered a pizza.

            there were witnesses at the restaurant parking lot where the teens were, as soon as they saw it was safe to return to the gas station they did and called the police. witnesses saw the entire event, no weapon was ever in their vehicle, no weapon was disposed of while they were briefly in front of the restaurant. police search of the van, crime scene and surrounded area found no weapon. safe to say that dunn has an overactive imagination at the least.

            logic would dictate that dunn has NO legitmate SYG claim, but this is florida and all bets are off.

          • gblock says:

            The fact that there were witnesses to the whole thing makes this case simpler in some ways than George Zimmerman (and hopefully will make it more likely that they will get a conviction).

    • crazy1946 says:

      It was stated the charge was changed from murder 2 to murder 1, because after the victims attempted to flee he shot four more times into the auto…..

      • Girlp says:

        Makes sense

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i still do not see how this factor equates to either premeditation or the stipulations in the ‘felony murder’ charge. do you?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Faux –
          @Girlp –
          @Crazy1946 –

          Fauxy, d’ja think the State o’ FL will finally settle on “misdemeanor perforation of a vehicle,” with a 30 day sentence in the local pokey, including visitation rights?

          Ho hum, another young life lost – tsk, tsk for the collateral damage.

          But damn! Them perforations really do mess up a perfectly nice SUV, and society’s debt for that crime jest gotta be paid.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            sounds about right to me Pmom!

          • riisey007 says:

            Yeah!!! cause as we see we are trying to make Murder 1 fit!! It seems Florida is a killing ground and it is starting to spread like the plague.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Perhaps the Professor can explain it better, but from what I have read, they are applying the old castle doctrine self defense theory where you must attempt to escape before taking lethal force. That being when they attempted to escape the fight, he stepped out of the vehicle and again attempted to kill the occupants of the vehicle. lf he uses the SYG in an attempt to avoid justice, it would be the best thing that could happen for our cause. This case could spell disaster (and the end of) the SYG laws if his lawyer attempts to use it… even if the victim is simply a disposable thug in the eyes of the racist contingent in Florida…

        • cielo62 says:

          IIRC, premeditation doesn’t take alot of time. He was in control enough to exit the vehicle and continue shooting. That’s premeditation enough.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that could be, cielo — i would just like to see a definitive statement instead of taking wild guesses, as i have been doing.

            the other thing that occurs to me … what kind of idiot practices ‘self defense’ by letting loose with a fire arm at a gas station? as comfortable as i am handling pistols, rifles, etc., i would sure as hell avoid that scenario.

    • roderick2012 says:

      @ faux, I could have sworn when I first heard this story Dunn went to his vehicle to load his gun and that’s where the premeditation came from, but

      • fauxmccoy says:


        you may have heard that, but that does not match any eye witness account, the defendant’s account or bullet trajectories.

      • cielo62 says:

        Roderick~ we’ve learned the cold, hard truth that NOTHING the media reports is even vaguely investigated.

  75. Nef05 says:

    Wonderful. Professor, if possible – I’d like to also keep an eye on the Walton “why am I being inconvenienced, I only killed a n*gger” Butler case as well, in Gulf County, FL.

    I haven’t been able to come up with discovery as yet (can anyone help?), but I was able to grab this link to the docket. There was a hearing just two days ago, and it appears as if the defendant is motioning to “rely on mental health defense other than insanity” and the state has motioned to have their expert examine the defendant. I don’t even know what the heck that means (mental health defense other than insanity), and if you have any idea I’d love to hear it. Anyway, I’d like us to examine this aspect, as well as the hate crime enhancement being leveled gainst Butler, but not against Dunn/Zimmerman. Of course, this fool was overt(n-word) – and sat down to eat his dinner while the man he shot lay dying on his patio. Nevertheless, if we can squeeze it in, it would be great.

    Anyway, docket link is:


    • Yorazigo says:

      Yikes – haven’t read extensively about this case until this link. Silencer? Nun chucks? All those bulletholes! This guy must be a worse nutcase than GZ.

      Doesn’t appear that he’s being supported by White Racists and NRA, though

      Thanks for the post, Crazy.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        oh yeah, silencer and nun chucks … what a jackass. after seeing this guy’s police interview and reading about his ‘nun chucks’ my husband and i have made some awful jokes at his expense.

  76. boyd says:

    unarmed kid, Judge removal, not ready for trial. sounds so familiar

  77. Trained Observer says:

    It appears the Dunn case will be an excellent follow-up … one where we can examine and compare prosecution and/or defense techniques with the Fogen trial, all the while continuing to seek Justice for Trayvon.

    Another Florida legal sidelight: The looming second trial for the Palm Beach polo hotshot who was convicted in a fatal DUI while being represented by Miami defense attorney Roy Black, best known for getting William Kennedy Smith off from a rape conviction in the early ’90s.

    The polo mogel has won a new trial because of irregularities that include a juror who neglected to mention during voir dire that his ex-wife was involved in a DUI. The polo defendant now has new legal representation. Meanwhile, Roy Black’s firm has refused to turn over case paperwork from the first trial pending full payment for services rendered.

    How ironic that a convicted defendant can get a new trial when juror misconduct is uncovered (that juror now faces his own trial), but that a defendant who wrongfully goes free does not suffer the risk of another trial when several things go awry and when a juror shows strong evidence of being a plant.

    • Trained Observer says:

      So is SheLie going to wiggle out of this charge thanks to the way things roll in Seminole County?

      • type1juve says:

        If Fogen can get away with murder then it won’t take much to let her skate on the perjury charge.

      • roderick2012 says:

        TO, of course. Most of the public has moved on from the Zimmermans and the fact that her trial has been continued until after his trial makes me suspect that it was to make sure no one would be watching when she is acquitted.

      • RobertSF says:

        I wouldn’t assume that. There are no black people involved. The victim was the state itself, so I don’t think the state will pull its punches.

        • Trained Observer says:

          RobertSF: Hope you’re right … yet with the way things have been going, I’m not overly confident.

          It does indeed behoove the State to go after her with no holds barred. To let her off is to suggest that lying to the court is fine and dandy, especially if a defendant eventually wins a case by hook or crook.

  78. diary73 says:

    I look forward to reading the discovery.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I am too and look forward to conversations in the morning.
      See y’all then.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i stayed up all night a few nights ago to get through it all. the quality of the investigation is immediately noticeable.

  79. Girlp says:

    Am I seeing some of the same tatics used by O’mara here? How do you get around SYG. I’m reading horror stories where people are shot in the back and back of the head and they still get away with it, that’s with the victim retreating or running away. Now there is another John Goode, the witness in the Dunn case is saying the front seat passenger and driver got out of the car at least he clarified that he did not see them stash anything, 4 days before the police did a comprehensive search. So I do have concerns but more about SYG than anything else…Howto get around this dangerous law?

  80. Good evening, everyone. Does anyone know whether this case will be televised?

    • roderick2012 says:

      @ Medusausi, my guess is that the Michael Dunn trial will be covered on HLN but not as widely covered as George’s trial.

  81. Two sides to a story says:

    Off-topic and old news, but came out during the Fogen trial.

    The parents of the baby shot in Georgia had gunpowder on their hands and this was known the day of the shooting. The black teens accused of this still have a trial scheduled. http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/georgia-murder-of-baby-complicated-by-evidence-of-gun-powder-residue-on-hands-of-both-parents-50212/

    I believe Fogen Jr. posted one alleged shooter’s picture on his Twitter with Trayvon’s pic, saying that black teens are risky. Set up a furor in cyberspace.

    • diary73 says:

      I read that, Two Sides. I wonder what it means.

      • concernedczen says:

        My gut feeling is that those teens were set up and had nothing to do with that crime. I was on vacation in HH at the time the story broke and saw some family members of the teens on the local news. I just believed them. They seemed very credible.

        The story of teens shooting a baby just doesn’t make any sense to me.

        The dad of the baby tested positive for gunpowder and the dad of the baby is now in jail on domestic violence charges.

        • diary73 says:

          I have loosely followed it and wonder if they will receive a fair trial. It is said that two family members lied for the boys, which created problems for them. Not really sure what to think in this case.

          I’d like the professor to touch up on this case too.

        • boyd says:

          either makes no sense or that is a crazy disturbed kid.

        • riisey007 says:

          I too started doubting it as well. This is not the first time nor will it be the last time that black men and women are blamed for crimes that they did not commit. You all remember the black man who stole the car at a traffic light which a white female was driving and had her 2 children in it? Yeah she lied and drowned her kids so she could go be with her boyfriend. Thank GOD that there was not a random black man that she could make fit the description. My cousin was seeing a white woman who when caught by the husband screamed rape, and off to prison he went where he lost one of his eyes. My ex high school friend was dating a white young lady daddy caught him in her room she was yelling she didn’t know why he was in her room, his mother happened to be a police officer and it helped save him. There has been a lot of that over the years.

    • Nef05 says:

      The mom’s daughter didn’t believe the mom from day one, if I recall correctly. She went on TV and told everyone. She was not shy about it.

    • lurker says:

      I remember having questions at the time. Not only did the story of the teens killing the baby beg explanation, but the father blaming the mother just sounded wackaloon.

      Not the first time that a real or imagined black person has been blamed for a crime of white people–especially domestic violence.

    • Do you really expect the police to cooperate if there is evidence that implicates the parents? Her story was so convoluted its beyond belief, but just like TM the story isn’t questioned because she accuses black male youths of such impropriety. In fact, I would contend that the police know the truth and are purposefully framing these youths to avoid the same type of accusations of bias that Susan Smith generated.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sounds like some crazy, disturbed parents using the black excuse to get off for their crime.

  82. Malamiyya says:

    Let me say that I wasn’t as impressed by John Guy as some people were. He got simple facts wrong like the gun pressed into Trayvon’s chest and Rachel’s age. And he got the defense’s star witness to say that if Trayvon was pulling away, his garments and the bullet hole would not be aligned — and then didn’t make anything of it. Good looking he may be. Good at sounding emotional notes in his opening and closing, too. But I don’t think he’s all that smart, and I don’t think he’s all that sharp a lawyer.

    • BillT says:

      none on the lawyers impressed me on any level……the defense was DIShonest in the extreme, and the prosecution either threw the case on purpose are are 100% incompetent.

      • concernedczen says:

        I was impressed by Mr. Mantei.

        • type1juve says:

          I was too, I think he was the only lawyer for the state interested in getting justice for TM.

          • sadlyyes says:

            he seemed to be GENUINE,a unique characteristic,hope he stays genuine!
            I said at the end of the trial
            It was a microcosm
            WE were all on trial
            and we ALL lost in that verdict
            this country continues to SPIN DOWN THE DRAIN..sad isnt it?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          likewise, for whatever that is worth

          • Malamiyya says:

            They gave Mantei all the technical stuff, and he was prepared in a way that de la Rionda and Guy weren’t.

          • BillT says:

            i understand what you folks are saying, he did good research, but that skill doesnt impress me, no special talent/training required to use a computer to find info on cases.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            it was his well prepared argument of case law and ability to present legal argument on the fly that impressed me, not his technical abilities.

            his statements at the presser afterwards were also qualitatively different than the others. sorry if you cannot see that.

          • BillT says:

            that is why the ice cream folks make so many different flavors……each person has a right to their own taste/opinions.

          • concernedczen says:

            Mr. Mantei was excellent in his argument against judgment of acquittal. He should have done the first closing not the dull and corrupt Bernie

      • Malisha says:

        Threw the case.
        There is evidence from other cases that they are not incompetent. They threw the case.

        • roderick2012 says:

          @Malisha, Bernie’s aside about his win-lose record at the news conference was very telling.

          It showed that he never considered this case to be about Trayvon’s death but himself and it reinforces what you said–if he had applied him experience to this case he could have won it—he had no intention to gain a W.

          • Roderick2012, I also saw BDLR lament about his win-loss record. I think prosecutors overestimate their litigation skill since they try hundreds upon hundreds of cases and consistently win convictions against defendants, even putting them on death row, on scant and flimsy evidence. Most defendants who escape conviction have hefty money and resources to hire experts, consultants, and such to be able to adequately compete with the state’s resources. But in this case, BDLR and the prosecution team did not use the resources they had access to in order to fully try their case.

      • pat deadder says:

        What happened to the sanctions omara has against BDLR and did the case go sour after cryboss hired the disgruntled lawyer and accused AC’s office of hiding evidence. .Sorry can’t spell his name.Did anyone notice how well BDLD did defending AC’s office.
        What is the usual time frame for a murder case to come to trial.Was omara being unreasonable
        I see Srolla is asking for a delay and his client is in jail.

    • boyd says:

      They wanted to win. That was too big a trial to throw away.

      Their mistake was playing it clean. Dirty Fogen up, drop bombs. You called him a liar, well bring in supporting witnesses. I would have had witness #9, the muslim guy , RVC witnesses who compalined about Fogen anybody. all on rebuttal day!

      • Tee says:

        Sorry, I don’t believe the state wanted to win if they had there efforts would have shown it and Angela Corey would have prosecuted the case herself. They did what would come across as their best, but their truth shined through their cracks.

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I agree. I don’t think the State wanted to win that case either. I don’t think they genuinely cared. I think it went further downhill once MOM filed sanction papers on him. Mantei impressed me. I don’t know if he has a speech impediment or is just nervous but he knew how to do more than just research cases. He knew how to ask questions that brought out the information he was after and stayed focused. The State should have brought the people you stated plus Jeremy. They also should have gotten an interpretor for Rachel and allowed her to speak Spanish as they did the other witness. I did not appreciate the way BLDR did not defend his star witness(es). For all of that, they might as well have told GMurderZ to go on and save everyone time and money and just do the SYG hearing since he was able to use it as a defense anyway.

        • Olivia says:

          Corey’s intent, as she said at the presser after the trial, was to get the “facts” out.

          However, her team only put out SOME of the facts, and many of those were spoken once and never mentioned again.

          Jurors don’t hear every word, every sentence,

          Their minds wander. If they contemplate what was said a moment ago, they miss out on what is currently being said.

          She put out a few facts. Jurors may have caught some of them.

          Since the trial, she’s referred to Trayvon as “prey”.

          I don’t recall anyone on her team tellling jurors that Zimmerman was a predator and Trayvon was his prey.

          Of course, like the jurors, I did not hear every word spoken at the trial.

          Did Corey’s team show/tell jurors that Zimmerman preyed on Trayvon?

          Did her team get out that important fact?

          • cielo62 says:

            Olivia~ yes, they did “get the facts out.” Stupid me for believing that THAT would be enough to secure a conviction.

        • pat deadder says:

          ISimon they should have just done the SYG hearing.No then they couldn’t blame the jurors who they knew wouldn’t convict.

  83. PiranhaMom says:

    Alas, this is the perfect follow-up.

  84. Two sides to a story says:

    Uno, dos, tres!

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