More indefensible errors by Bernie de la Rionda

Tuesday, July 23, 2013

Good afternoon my friends,

Crane and I slept late yesterday. We eventually decided to take a day off from blogging and went for a ride on the motorcycle.

During the ride home, I thought of two additional examples of inexcusable prosecutorial bungling during the Zimmerman trial; namely, failure to adequately prepare witnesses to testify and failure to adequately protect them from harrassment by defense counsel.

Dr. Shiping Bao, the Assistant Medical Examiner, apparently believed that he could write out what he wanted to say before court, read his statement to the jury, and answer any questions the jurors might have had. He put many hours of effort into preparing his report, including time spent reviewing peer reviewed papers and notes published in professional journals. That review and the autopsy results obtained by another medical examiner in a similar case led him to change two of his original conclusions. For example, he changed his opinion regarding how long Trayvon Martin might have remained conscious after the shot from an estimate of two to four minutes to possibly as long as ten minutes.

Bernie de la Rionda knew or should have known that Dr. Bao probably was not familiar with court rules and procedures. He should have contacted him to find out if he had updated his official report and whether he was familiar with the question and answer method of interrogation. If he had contacted Dr. Bao, he would have realized pretty quickly that Dr. Bao had supplemented his official report and needed to be briefed on the basics.

For example, Bernie would have told him that the rules limit witnesses to answering questions asked by the lawyers or by the judge. He also would have told him to stop answering a question asked by a lawyer, if opposing counsel objects, and wait for the judge to overrule the objection before answering.

Rachel Jenteal also would have benefited from the same advice.

Bernie owed a duty to all of his witnesses to protect them from the defense tactic of repeating a question many times and eventually changing the meaning of the question by adding or eliminating a keyword to it that the witness overlooks to the detriment of the prosecution case.

The proper objection is, “the question has been asked and answered.”

Finally, much grief would have been avoided, if witnesses were told to answer questions on cross with one of the following answers:

“Yes,” “No,” or “I don’t know.”


Your continuing support allows me to continue posting independent articles like this.

Please consider making a donation to keep independent journalism alive.

394 Responses to More indefensible errors by Bernie de la Rionda

  1. concernedczen says:

    “Responding officer to the scene, Patrick Rehder, whose facebook just adds even more doubt to the merits of this incident. A longtime vocal Zimmerman supporter on his wall before & after, but silent about his meeting with Zimmerman except 5 days afterwards to say “Well I kinda made the news” with a link to the story. These are just a few of the recent statuses on his facebook supporting Zimmerman, & his wall includes his superiority complex as a cop & racism.”

    This is a good point.

    • Malisha says:

      Rehder … very interesting.

      Fogen always needs a “producer and director” cop to help him set up the scene for his hero hobby.

      Tim Smith was OBVIOUSLY his producer and director on the now famous movie, “ThugKiller.” (“Conspiracy to Murder” charges can, of course, still be brought against Tim Smith.)

      Rehder is his producer and director on the unsuccessful sequel, “GoodGuySaver.”

      Win some, lose some.

  2. Jasmine says:

    I want to make 3 points that have to do with the ‘evidence’
    1. His face which, according to him, was hit with fists 25-30 times. Now I don’t know about you but I have been slapped in the face and that side was swollen and my lip was swollen as well. So where was the swelling that should have been there. What about a busted lip? Or black eyes? How did super hero end up with only 3 pin pricks at the end of his nose and a scratch across the bridge of his nose?
    2. The back of his head… anyone who has ever been a child has fallen on the concrete. What kind of wound was there? A gash or some kind of circular scrape right? It wasn’t a line? Nope!
    3. The blood. All females know (we know) that blood is hard to remove from clothing and the fact that these non-thinking female jurors would think that the discriminating mold would remove that ‘creatures’ blood is ridiculous. If we had known that rain could get rid of blood we would not need Tide or Gain. There would be no need to pre-treat stains. We would just use rain. So where was creatures blood that should have been on Trayvon? It was NEVER, EVER, ever on Trayvon’s clothes. Period. Full-Stop.

    • MDH says:

      The blood would have soaked into the cuffs of the hoodie from that bleeding from the tip of GZ’s nose due to Trayvon’s alleged pressing on it.

      Oh, and then the pressing would have spread and smeared the blood.

      Hitting a head with one’s fist 20 to 30 time without wearing protective gloves would have left Trayvons hand a mess.

      Blood from the back of the head would have stained the concrete in that luminal detects the iron in the blood. Concrete is a porous medium that would have soaked up some of the iron.

      There have been cases where a perp has washed a garage surface wherein blood from the victim fell to the point that the eye could not see a thing, yet luminol lit up the spots nicely.

      If the Jurors had bothered to listen to the ME closely, they would have noted that whatever strike caused the boo boo on the bridge of the nose was not a hard one. IMO, it certainly was not the result of knuckles drilled on target. It was more like what one would get from being smacked by a stick; a linear mark with some mild swelling that resolves quickly upon clean up to look like nothing – which the high quality photo taken at the Sanford PD shows.

      IMO, there was a tussle wherein GZ grabbed hold of Trayvons hoodie. Trayvon tried to pull away and GZ got raked by a branch of that tree that is in the fight area. At some point GZ pulled so hard that he fell back and pulled Trayvon on top. The fall could have caused the scrapes on the back of GZ’s head. Trayvon then stood up and tried to back away. GZ kept his hold on the hoodie and shot Trayvon as he regained a standing position, thus explaining why Trayvon’s body was back and away from the sidewalk. The punctuate wounds to the tip of the nose were caused by the gun kicking back.

      Can I prove the above beyond a reasonable doubt?


      But my scenario is a hell of lot more plausible that the fables told by GZ

      GZ’s story from getting out of the car to the fatal shot has so many holes that it proves he is a liar beyond a reasonable doubt. And this should have been considered in passing judgment.

      Bill Maher summed it up perfectly. GZ is a big fat f’in liar who was never in any fear for his life.

      The petulant shit shot Trayvon because he resisted and was going to get away, thus making the pin dick that is GZ look like a fool.

      • Jasmine says:

        You are soooo right. Like you said if the jurors had listened. I would have preferred a hung jury than those jurors who wanted to convict him selling out. They should have stood their ground. That is what they did and I cannot understand that.

  3. Girlp says:

    Well I’m looking at their pictures on Newsball if he was in a wreck it didn’t do much if any damage he got his truck back really fast. I had a minor wreck and it took 3 weeks to get my car back, I could still drive it, the car was still aligned. And how did the poor little weakling George pull this big guy from a truck…Newsball Inc aside this smells fishy to me.

  4. Thrace says:

    Maybe they should contact Hero George and see if he can help them out…oh wait – he’s the reason their businesses are suffering.

    Sanford businesses suffering after Zimmerman verdict

    • boyd says:

      too bad, do not feel sorry for them, their police force was rotten for years and some wacko with a gun took advantage of their corrupt system. Id never shop there or anywhere in seminole county.

      • Trained Observer says:

        That’s how I feel. No gasoline stops, no restaurants, no commerce at all in Seminole County. Letting Fogen go free was an orchestrated effort that started long before the six jurors of dubious character were seated.

    • Malisha says:

      They should perk up. Soon there will be some feds in town interviewing the folks at the police dept. and others. They’ll need several hotel rooms because they will have two others (a polygrapher and a forensic psychologist, for starters) with them. And they’re WHITE so they will be sure to get served at the various restaurants in town.

    • Christopher Charles says:

      Following the verdict in the Till case, the economy of Money Mississippi took a hit, eventually completely drying up. The grocery store owned by the Bryant’s was particularly hard hit, Blacks and Whites avoided all contact with the murderers. If time and interest are available, you might find the material at this link interesting and informative

    • cielo62 says:

      That was great!


    • Lonnie Starr says:

      What? They expect to be rewarded with good business in a town like that? If they want to do more better biz they need to move out of the racist state! SYG means that nobody is safe to walk the streets! Anyone with a gun has a right to follow you? That’s got to be comforting news eh?

  5. groans says:


    The newest royal baby, and third in line to the British throne, will be known as His Royal Highness Prince George of Cambridge. Beaming proudly, the Duke and Duchess explained, “We feel that this was the least we could do. It’s a small gesture, really, but it’s our way of saying #ThanksGeorge.”

  6. Trained Observer says:

    A double edge sword:

    How ironic that one adult from the family pulled from the overturned SUV resents being chased by the media. So far he has refused any comment, and a “spokesperson” alleges it’s because the family fears reprisals from Trayvon supporters.

    How silly.

    Yet this same family apparently also wants nothing to do with Fogen either. This may be the first of many instances where Fogen will be mystified that after exercising his little hero talents, nobody wants to give him the time of day.

    How fitting.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      TO says

      This may be the first of many instances where Fogen will be mystified that after exercising his little hero talents, nobody wants to give him the time of day.

      How fitting.

      yes indeedy! (if indeedy any of this is true)
      get used to it porgie!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes. Even if people support him, they’ll distance themselves.

  7. Two sides to a story says:

    Native American Journalists on Trayvon Martin

    “We have our own system of injustice, and we’ve been living it for 100 years,” one veteran Native journalist said.

  8. Danita says:

    This has been a very tough year and a half with the Trayvon case. Myself alot of personal notes,hopes and wishful thinking and extreme heart ache after the verdict. But I’am a believer in the higher power that nothing goes unnoticed, not even what foggen did.That man took a kids life for nothing, he sent a family into an everlasting heartache forever. I know in time when the dust settles and people are no longer talking payback will cross foggens path.His life will spin out of control and he will be wondering what have I done and then Trayvon will appear to him and say hey remember me………my dad always told me that “every dog has a day and a bad dog has two”foggen had one, there’s another one coming just wait you’ll see. So to everyone the fight must go on keep the faith a change is coming…….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “every dog has a day and a bad dog has two”

      Fogen might get three.

    • riisey007 says:

      Danita, I am with you. I am in hopes that we all come together and talk about race relations, that we come together on one accord and be willing to get to know each other and learn about one another. I am hopeful for the future because I have seen people of all races come together for the greater good. I am thankful for change. As far as Zimmerman and his family, I too believe in a higher power and that he will see a day where all his demons will come calling.He sold his soul to the devil in order to beat this charge of murder and he will have to pay the price for it.

  9. riisey007 says:

    Get your sons and go out an see this movie, It ill be in theaters on Friday.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Looking forward to seeing this.

    • Elijah says:

      Saw it. Haunting and heartbreaking. Bare bones filmmaking at it’s richest. @oscargrant

    • Girlp says:

      Very sad movie, Oscar Grants murder was videoed. This country has a long ways to go.

    • diary73 says:

      I saw it and cried uncontrollably, requiring me to leave make a spectacle of myself in the bathroom stall. Heartbreaking story.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i am planning to go see it as well although i am dreading it. oscar grant’s uncle cephus was my husband’s friend, co-worker and car pool partner at the time. seeing CJ go through this in person and being unable to help was hard enough the first time. the film is an important piece of work however and i feel obligated to support it.

  10. Girlp says:

    Mark O’Mara has no shame, I hope someone finds out this hoax is a hoax and it finds it’s way to the National news….I do not believe a word of it. This is a setup and attempt to make Fogen look good.

    • type1juve says:

      Even if it happened that does not negate the fact that he murdered a teenager and got away with it. I really wish he, his family and attorney would get the eff on somewhere and stfu. We’ve listened to their bs for over a year now, enough already!

      • Girlp says:

        True, still hard for me to believe he was anywhere near the accident. I suppose now he will want to be a fireman.

    • endlessummer76 says:

      You would think someone who just got away with murder would have enough sense to sit down and shut up for a while, but no, he has to continue to seek the limelight. I think this is all just a set up to continue to keep his profile high and to garner speaking engagements, etc. M’OM is going to try to keep those donations coming so that he gets his fees paid.

    • Malisha says:

      It doesn’t even make him look good. It makes Kokopelli look like a perjuror.

    • Boyd says:

      no one mentions zimmerman

    • LBTG says:

      There was an accident. The police could have “used” the accident to promote a positive image of fogen. Doesn’t seem to be anyone outside the SPD & fogen alliances to support the fogen recuer story. Why wouldn’t the accident victims verify the story.

      • Boyd says:

        If he was there, certainly the family or someone would have taken a cell phone shot.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          not even an autograph request of the ‘great white dope’ … that must’ve chapped his hide, if in fact he was even there

    • Nef05 says:

      Don’t know if this is satire or not, but it doesn’t appear to be. Nevertheless, I have no knowledge of their reliability. BUT, it’s interesting, for sure. Seems like some media, as well as the public, is questioning this “rescue”:

      • dianetrotter says:

        The statements of the officer shows he is a true to the bone racist. He was ranting about Mexicans. I noticed the use of the word “assholes!”

      • Malisha says:

        Oh I’m choking with laugher. The sheriff’s punk calls Zimmerman as soon as the “accident” happens and up shows Superpunk to save the family? REALLY? Then McAuliffe can only say that he was TOLD that Fogen saved them? REALLY? Then Gerstle goes silent and pulls down his FB page? REALLY? Fraud anybody? Did they think they were gonna write a book called “Saved by the Most Godly Man in America” but then their deal fell through?

        All I worry about is that one of their two children will get ahold of their firearms and kill a little African American kid, then telling mom, dad and the world (through Cannaday) “I had to; he was teasing me and I feared great bodily harm or death.”

        • Christopher Charles says:

          Your words sent a jolt through my body: “I had to; he was teasing me and I feared great bodily harm or death.” The stage has been set for such comments to be used to defend murder, with a greater chance of the murderers going free. America is increasingly becoming a very scary and dangerous place. We’ve got to find solutions for the many issues all around us. If we don’t, all of us will be sucked into the cesspool.

  11. Boyd says:

    I’m not doxing professor! I found the police car accident report. I’m assuming this is legitimate, I doubt it’s real

    No mention of Zimmerman, or people being pulled out. Only 1 cop at the scene.

    But I doubt it’s real after I noticed e-mail addresses. I’m not doxing!

    Click to access I4_SR46VehicleCrash.pdf

    • bettykath says:

      One vehicle to NOT have is a Ford Explorer. Easy rollover and no airbag deployment.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Why not a citation for going too fast or reckless driving or something. If nothing was wrong with the car and no one else was involved, driver is at faut.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @diane — it’s entirely possible that there was no speeding or even reckless driving. if it is a single car accident, no injuries and no property damage except to that of the driver’s vehicle, then it is merely an insurance issue for the driver and ‘fault’ is not an issue.

      • type1juve says:

        You’re absolutely right. I’m disabled today from a traumatic brain injury I sustained when my Ford Explorer rolled over.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @boyd — no one could possibly accuse you of doxing for posting a link from a legitimate news source which contained a PDF of public information.

      IF — you had taken such public information, sought out the driver’s or passenger’s facebook accounts, home addresses etc., etc., THEN that would be a different story. their names and photos are readily available on other news sources. this is entirely different from posting information on persons whom the court has ordered anonymity. have no worries, please.

      funny though, there is no mention of the superhero supposedly at the scene, isn’t it?

    • LBTG says:

      Looks like fogen and MOM are already starting to manage the news in the event the DOJ charges fogen. Expect to hear more incidents.

      Sean Vincent, a spokesman for Zimmerman’s legal team, told the New York Daily News that Zimmerman was driving when he saw the overturned vehicle and pulled over to help.

      “There was a family trapped in there,” Vincent told the newspaper. “George was able to help the family get out of the car before the first responders got there.”

      The SPD also has incentive to make fogen look good and hopefully shoo away the DOJ based on there will be no unbiased people who can serve on the jury or be witnesses. DOJ will need to furnish their own expert witnesses. How can the DOJ get unbiased jurors to hear the case?

      • dianetrotter says:

        I wonder how many SPD employees supported GZ on FB like this idiot officer. I’d like to see Serino or Singleton’s FB.

      • cielo62 says:

        LBTG- the DoJ can pull from Orlando. They are not limited to Seminole county.


  12. riisey007 says:

    Zimmerman had a second gun, where did it go? when authorities brought him in on his lies to the court Zimmerman had a second gun on the seat. He admitted to purchasing for his own protection while out on bond.So they raised money for a third gun or are they fooling the gun owners into believing they are losing their gun rights.

    • willisnewton says:

      This nation is awash in guns. I’m sure GZ has all the guns he feels he needs. What HLN thinks it lacks is viewers.

    • Thrace says:

      I had forgotten all about that other gun the cops took when they arrested him. Pretty sure they would have given that back to him if he requested it since it wasn’t evidence.

  13. sparger says:

    Why would anyone threaten the life of the family rescued in the accident? That makes zero sense. This whole thing smells fishy. Liars attract other liars.

    • Thrace says:

      I don’t know how reliable the is, looks tabloidish to me. But all their claims about threats came from unnamed friends. What I noticed about the article they published is all the pictures of the father they took, who is obviously PO’ed and telling them to beat it.

      • sparger says:

        I guess the dad should have thought through this before he agreed to this farce.

      • bettykath says:

        I wonder where they got the photos of their daughter’s christening, their NASA suits, etc. These are family photo album pics. Strange for such shy folks to provide these pics.

        • Thrace says:

          Facebook probably. The mom had one and it disappeared or went private once the story hit the news. I spotted a post by her on an arts academy facebook and the link to her account was no good.

        • dianetrotter says:

          What I can’t understand is, it is easy to trace calls these days and it is a federal offense (I think). why is it that none of these harrassers can be caught.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Daily Mail is a tabloid in the UK.

  14. riisey007 says:

    Omg!! why doesn’t O’mara go away!! I also want to know why it is that all of the Zimmerman camp is scared but they keep going on talk shows and putting themselves out there. I fin this very annoying. All of them are profiting from Martins death.

    • Thrace says:

      Especially when, like Robert Jr, they announce ahead of time where and when they will be holding an interview.

    • aussie says:

      And I bet it’s their crowd ringing other George Z’s and the woman with the similar number, just to “prove” there are death threats.

    • Wanna says:

      Anyone who has watched MOM over the last year know he never met a lie he would not tell. I am beginning to believe he is a pathological liar that won’t go away.

    • Thrace says:

      They were foolish to even announce they were going to do a press conference. Anybody with a lick of sense would know that would put them in spotlight & media frenzy. From the various articles I’ve read it appears to me O’Mara sweet talked them into this presser & they smartened up and backed out. Reading the cfnews13 article it sounds like they rang up MOM’s office said it was off and then changed their phone number.

    • riisey007 says:

      I am so sick of these people. That was just a cheap shot at the president and for donations.

    • Yorazigo says:

      What kind of a site is this: ScaredMonkeys?

      “The family rescued by George Zimmerman after a rollover crash in Florida are TERRIFIED they will become targets for HATE MOBS who have made death threats to the neighborhood vigilante.”

      At least they got the vigilante part right!

    • Girlp says:

      Did they make this story up too? I’m believing none of it until the Police Cheif himself makes an annoucement and I’m betting he never will.

    • cielo62 says:

      Dianetrotter- thanks! I can make up names, too doesn’t make up for lack if any corroborating evidence.


  15. Thrace says:

    The other man on the scene of the accident was with George in his car according to O’Mara. MOM makes comments about skeptics believing this was a PR stunt too.

    Mark O’Mara addresses skeptics who say George Zimmerman rescue was ‘staged’

  16. Thrace says:

    When did Jr retain an attorney and why?

    Tampa, Florida –( Mark Walters will welcome George Zimmerman’s brother Robert Zimmerman and his attorney Jeff Dowdy to the Armed American Radio network this Sunday, 7-­-28-­-2013 at 8pm ET.

    Mark Walters said, “I am absolutely thrilled to offer the Zimmerman family a supportive environment to talk to the nation. I look forward to providing them a friendly, pro CCW, pro self-­-defense venue.”

    “Unlike the mainstream media who continue to drag George Zimmerman and his family through hell and put their lives in danger, Armed American Radio will offer a forum for the Zimmerman’s to tell the real story in a non-­- confrontational atmosphere.”

    • sparger says:

      Why does Robert need an attorney?

      • endlessummer76 says:

        To negotiate contracts for his speaking fees.

        • Malisha says:

          and to help him sue people for not bowing down to him. Only bro can out and KILL people for that (by means of kill-and-lie); Junior is only able to lie and sue.

      • Thrace says:

        I thought Jr lived up in VA, what’s he doing with a FL lawyer. This lawyer appears to be a death qualified criminal defense lawyer. And how can he afford it – NO ONE in this family works.

  17. riisey007 says:

    George Zimmermans fake rescue falling apart. I wondered how a cream puff rescued a family of car crash victims. I am so glad that there re enough intelligent people of all races working over time to stop nonsense in it’s tracks.

  18. colin black says:

    They are saying a lot of thought went into naming this babbee.

    Not a lot of thought about anagramming the intitals

    G A L.

  19. colin black says:

    Whatch out America another King George on the way.

    George Alexander louie.

    Royal babees name

  20. dianetrotter says:

    I just sent an email to HLN to check to see if the accident was staged.

  21. nemerinys says:


    Several months I saw the film My Cousin Vinny for the first time and, as I often do for some reason, I looked it up on Wikipedia, which included some comments from legal experts that made me think of BDLR’s deposition of Rachel (or “DeeDee” as she was known then). Re-reading those words today, they still describe BDLR’s most basic failure as shown by his lack of preparing the witnesses and his performance in the trial.

    One legal textbook uses the film as an “extremely helpful introduction to the art of presenting expert witnesses at trial”, and criminal defenders, law professors, and other lawyers use the film to demonstrate voir dire and cross examination. A professor described My Cousin Vinny as useful for discussing “criminal procedure, courtroom decorum, professional responsibility, unethical behavior, the role of the judge in a trial, efficient cross-examination, the role of expert witnesses and effective trial advocacy.”

    The professor added that, in addition, “Vinny is terrible at the things we do teach in law school, but very good at the things we don’t: [How to] interview clients, to gather facts, to prepare a theory of a case, to negotiate, to know when to ask a question and when to remain quiet, to cross examine a witness forcefully (but with charm) in order to expose the weaknesses in their testimony.”

    Bernie should watch the movie; he just might learn something important. Too bad he didn’t learn it before he came across this case.

    • nemerinys says:

      Forgot to end blockquote. The last paragraph is mine.

    • colin black says:

      In MY Cousin Vinnie the defence Joe Pesci was able to clear his clients due to the gathering of evidence at the crime scene ie Tire Tread Marks photographed .

      However the only Skidmarks examined after the Murder of Trayvon .
      Were probably examined by shelie as she washed the underpants of the returning hero.

    • Malisha says:

      BDLR did know how to convict; he chose not to. He doesn’t need education in prosecuting defendants; he needs education in not creating theater of the corrupt.

      Hey finally it came through to me what we have seen:


      We got used to Theater of the Absurd in the 70s. We just haven’t gotten used to Theater of the Corrupt. YET. I hope I don’t live long enough to get used to it.

  22. nemerinys says:

    Why was O’Mara permitted to use the photos of Zimmerman taken by Wagner and Manalo? I thought evidence has to be introduced with a witness who could testify to its provenance? Yet, not only did O’Mara use these from the beginning, he was also IIRC the first to play Lauer’s 911 tape – and that was during the opening argument.

    • bettykath says:

      All’s fair unless the prosecution objects. The prosecution did not object to the tape or the photo.

    • dianetrotter says:

      If this doesn’t prove what liars GZ and this racist officer are, I don’t know what to think.

    • Girlp says:

      Because they are liars and apparently it’s easy to prove they are liars.

    • Elijah says:

      Unbelievable Diane! Thank you for posting this.

    • riisey007 says:

      I posted a similar article below. Glad to see your post as well. I said the day it came out that he must have shot the tire out in order to actually b a witness and rescuer. How can a cream puff actually have the strength to help anyone? I thought he was in hiding? They must be looking for more donation money? Does anyone know if all of the family live together?

    • willisnewton says:

      I’m speculating but to me this reeks of an effort by MOM to capitalize on a situation. Leaving aside whether or not the incident itself was a planned stunt (i have no knowledge of this) I could easily see MOM announcing to the press that he would host a press conference to present the rescued family on his office lawn. Perhaps he had secured their cooperation, perhaps not. But eventually he had to cancel the presser and again spoke for the family.

  23. Malisha says:

    According to my information, Thomas Perez was the person in DOJ responsible for investigating the Trayvon Martin murder when it was “hot” because of the pre-charge publicity.

    During pre-trial motions BDLR said that the investigation was “on-going” — so where has it GONE?

    Where are reports? Where are news articles about it? Where is the continued work that the American taxpayers have purchased? We need an interim report. An honest, fact-check-able interim report.

    • willisnewton says:

      Thanks Malisha.

      from your link:

      “The attorney general says that Justice Department officials including Tom Perez, the assistant attorney general for the civil rights division, and U.S. Attorney Robert O’Neill from Florida have traveled to Sanford to meet with the Martin family, members of the community and local authorities.”

      I note that US attn’y Robert O’Neill is also named. It would be his task to assemble and charge and argue in court the case were one to be brought. I assume he would also be directing investigators as well, drawn from wherever they might be – FBI or otherwise.

      Perhaps we should make inquiries as to his efforts thus far.

      As I’ve said before, I’ve seen no evidence that the feds are investigating the SPD or Norm Wolfinger’s actions regarding the events surrounding the killing. No one besides Serino has publicly retained a lawyer. No file cabinets have been photographed being carried out to rental vans. No interim reports have been issued.

      Instead it’s important to note that what AG Holder spoke to is the concept of a hate crime having been perpetrated by George Zimmerman and him alone. Most legal scholars and plenty of pundits have weighed in already on the idea that this is an unlikely course, the idea that Zimmerman would be so charged.

      Such interim reports that you wish we could see only surface when a congressional investigation presses for them in my memory.

      • endlessummer76 says:

        Not to mention that SPD has now had 18 months to clean up their files even if DOJ wanted to look at them = /

        Keep writing, calling, emailing & tweeting your senators & congresspersons. Those of us who live in FL, keep contacting your FL senate & congress too.

    • Boyd says:

      I read it. When I got wind of this ‘accident’ first thing I did was check Sanford/Orlando for a overturned car at that intersection on that day. I never found an accident report

      • dianetrotter says:

        This should be more fodder for DOJ. This officer should be fired just like the guy who posted the capture pics of the Boston Marathon Bomber. If this happened, it is HUGE!

      • sparger says:

        Counting down to a retraction in 3 2 1. Dumb deputy is probably going to get fired. When will cops learn helping Zimmerman is not a good idea.

    • Girlp says:

      No one else was in the truck? So when is this going to hit the Media….Never!

    • Malisha says:

      The victims of that terrible car crash need to be investigated by DOJ for participating in a fraud. Any public services rendered to them by the sheriff’s office need to be investigated for fraud.

      Jeez, I wonder if that family’s personal attorney is a space attorney, don’t you? Wonder if their realtor is Jenna. Wonder if their buddies’ initials are MARK OSTERMAN or FRANK TAAFFE. Wonder if they made an insurance claim for the damage to their vehicle? Wonder if they work out at Kokopelli’s gym. Wonder if they have ever held any false parties to celebrate marriages or graduations for Fogen’s sister. Etc.

      Oh, and do they mentor little AA kids too?

  24. silk says:

    who in their right mind would beleave that those bullshit photos where real . if the jury beleave that then they are in fact racist bigot. its just like that !! and i would be surprise if holder dose nothing about it . this site is a very good site . it hurts to see so many intelligant views just go down the drain , over some corrupt racist police department.

  25. silk says:

    HE never really rebutle the defense . omara and west are 2 dummie . this case was not hard for the state to win . bernie intentially blew it !!! simply to cover the racist sanford police department . and not the mention the all white jury . think about it .

    • Boyd says:

      That’s a terrible Police department. More will come out.
      I thing they rigged the Potential Jurors mailings via data mining.

      Hitting heavily republicans areas, where all the CCW holders are. They had 2-3 CCW holders on that Jury, I won’t find 1 CCW holder where I work.

  26. Boyd says:

    Because BDLR’s attack was Fogen was a liar. Why did he not bring witness #9 and the Muslim guy he worked with to testify to his untruthfulness and deception.

    I told you guys they did not drop enough bombs on Fogen. I would have brought in GF, Cousins everybody. That could have been done without mentioning arrests.

  27. Girlp says:

    This follows closely the professor’s opinion…I agree very bad prosecution.

  28. silk says:

    BDLR threw the case i beleave .

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      For sure… They never charged gz with stalking, but that’s exactly what he admitted to doing. If he had any right at all, to go see where the child was going, that right ended when he caused the child to run away from him. After that point, going after the child was illegal stalking and a crime. He cannot claim self defense while he is committing a crime. So the prosecution allowed him to get away with the crime of stalking first, so they could allow him to get away with the murder second.

      A sham fight is one where you let your opponent strike all the blows, until you finally fall down. A sham trial is one where you don’t raise any points in favor of your client, and allow your opponent to destroy and compromise any claims, assertions or evidence you do present.

      Neither a sham fight nor a sham trial is any contest at all. The defendant faced no jeopardy because, the prosecution never raised the bar high enough to ensure any conviction. In fact, they purposely kept their presentation as confusing and ill formed as they possibly could, ensuring that they would not meet the high burden they knew they had to meet to win.

      This case and trial, viewed worldwide, and is still gathering even more attention than it did during the trial, is going to be this nations undoing if something is not done about it and quick.

  29. The prosecution was dealing with their own racism. It revealed itself with BdlR saying things like “and he didn’t even steal it” when referring to the Arizona and Skittles Trayvon bought and his slipping into calling Trayvon a “man” when he was clearly a cracky-voiced teenager. He also didn’t study black Vernaculars or Haitian Kreyol grammar to help translate Rachel Jeantel’s dialect. Sometimes the “have” has different meaning in these languages.

    It’s reason’s such as these that Affirmative Action is needed. I’m sure BdlR serves the white Cuban American community very well, but without prosecutors and trained experts from other communities the inequity just perpetuates itself.

    • …and to a certain extent that goes for Bao’s testimony as well. As an Asian language and culture specialist, I could pick up cues that the average person does not. There is a huge difference between Chinese and Japanese (Chinese is a very direct language). So while Dr. Nakasone sounded professional, Bao did not.

    • Endless Summer says:

      I thought the same thing. The forensic evidence does not support the assumption that there was a fight. There may have been a confrontation or an altercation but I don’t believe that a fight happened and I don’t believe that Trayvon caused fogen’s injuries. Yet the prosecution ran with the fight narrative created by the defense.

      Fact: Fogen watched, stalked, and chased Trayvon
      Fact: Fogen NEVER IDENTIFIED himself to Trayvon. Why did the prosecution not harp on this point over and over? They never asked the jury to put themselves into the shoes of the victim-stalked and chased by an unidentified stranger!!
      Fact: Fogen never gave any reason for chasing Trayvon. Why didn’t the prosecution ask this question? Why would fogen chase Trayvon? Trayvon did nothing wrong. Fogen did not stop a crime in progress. Why was he chasing?

      IMO, what the jury left out of their decision was the word “reasonable.” There was absolutely nothing reasonable about the actions of fogen.

      • Drew says:

        Was “we don’t know what really happened!!” a teevee talking point?

        I’ve had friends who think all of Zimmertit’s shit was unreasonable, and that it was perfectly reasonable for TM to fight back… Yet they always seem to hedge in the end, saying, “we just don’t know the real truth!”

        • endlessummer76 says:

          That is sad, and in the end, there was no one to speak the truth for Trayvon. When someone is murdered, forensic science is the voice of truth for the deceased. Forensic science said Trayvon likely never laid a hand on Fogen.

          Why did the prosecution not press this point home, over and over again? I have to believe, as ‘Already Been Said’ says above, they were guided by their own racism.

          And when Juror B 37 said she believed Trayvon threw the first punch, why in the world wouldn’t AC ask her “what led you to that belief?” or “how did you come to that conclusion?” No, it was just her belief and she never had to justify it to anyone.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        That is exactly why I call this trial a sham!

        These very actions you are describing, that were never raised at the “trial”, are the very items that AT LAW, would preclude any not guilty verdict all by themselves, because they are crimes. Self defense cannot be claimed by someone who is committing a crime.

        Here a non lawyer gets a clue:
        Between the Lines: Blaming The Youth When The Adults Should Have Known

        • Xena says:

          @Lonnie Starr. The prosecution failed in cross-examining. DNA evidence proved that Trayvon didn’t bang GZ’s head, nor smother him. The defense claimed that rain washed off the DNA and the SPD failed to bag Trayvon’s hands. The prosecution should have drilled-in the question why rain didn’t wash blood off GZ’s head, and why his hands were not bagged.

          Of the gun experts, they should have been asked the consequences of shooting with one hand and the recoil.

          Overall, with good cross, the prosecution could have shown that the SPD’s failure to luminol the sidewalk, bag hands, etc., demonstrated favoritism towards GZ and his story. They simply did not want to look for evidence to refute GZ’s story because they took him for his word and dead men tell no tales.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The prosecution should have been ready for the rain/blood/washed story, any forensic scientist could have explained why the blood evidence would not be washed away by the rain. Under the fingernails there is also oily gook which repels rainwater and preserves dna. Also the blood and dna was preserved in the cloth, so there should have been additional dna on Trayvon’s sleeves that wasn’t there.

            The prosecution wasn’t ready for anything because they didn’t want to be ready, because they did not want to win the case. These are not some “joe’s-off-the-streets” we’re talking about seasoned prosecutors of many trials over decades. They know enough to expect attorney’s like O’Mara and they know how to defeat them as well. They simply did not want to win!

    • Boyd says:

      yes, I picked up on that a few times. They also allowed the defense to portray Martin as some thug. JN allowed it.

    • Girlp says:

      Rachel also has a severe underbite which can only be corrected with surgery so she cannot pronouce some words, I have also learned she missed a lot of school when she was young due to illness that’s why she was held back, she was a B student before Trayvon’s death. She speaks English, Spanish and French Creole her defect would most likley any language she speaks.

      • My roommate had the same underbite. She even had the surgery to get it corrected. But she was of Russian Jewish heritage by her grandparents and spoke standard American English. I understood every thing she said. Jeantel was using different grammatical structures and phonetics.

    • Wanna says:

      Something else that bothered me is that BdlR misspoke dozens of times in referring to Trayvon and then corrected himself particularly in his closing.

  30. Beverly says:

    Trayvon’s dad is going to be in DC today to testify on status of Black men. Do not know a time; should be interesting.

  31. concernedczen says:

    This is the funniest one:

    Boo Radley ‏@ClauGasol 23 Jul

    “But why is it that there’s only one set of footprints in the sand?” I asked.

    “That is where George Zimmerman carried you.” #ThanksGeorge

  32. colin black says:

    Say Zimmershit was actually being beaten to death, but didnt have a gun. Then he somehow gets free and kicks BLAKK THUG KILLA in the balls or something and there’s a reversal of fortune and he starts fighting back. Big time! If he spends 10+ minutes or so bashing THUGGIE’s face in, well after there was no danger, you know just using excessive force and ends up killing him with his bare hands / feet – then I don’t think the self defense thing holds up. I think the sick Florida jury had a boner for the fact that a gun was used and wanted to reward Zimmerfatfuck for using it. Bonus points for killing a MENACING THUG!

    The cowardly child murderer would never approach a real gang member.
    He would never dare venture into real inner city projects like Miamis Pork an Beenz were gang shooyings are a weekly if not by the day fact of life.

    He would be terrified as real gang members also carry guns an like himself have no qualms about murdering someone.

    He was living in a gated community rent freeloading.
    Didn’t welch on loading his gun though did he?Even the youths commiting thease petty crimes were petty criminals.
    An not hardened gang members.

    He knew Trayvon was just an unarmed CHILD walking alone in the rain he cerb crawled him to check him out.

    Perfect a Child alone unarmed in the Dark time to get his Bruce Willis on.
    An as his perceived scenario didn’t pan out he shot a screaming innocent child as expendanle inconveinant danger of his being arrested for kiddnpping a minor at gun point within sight of his own home.

    His terror as lights came on an people responded to his screams only to turn there backs on him an let this monster have his way with him must have been.

    Off the scale at least half a dozen prople could an should have interveined an halted foggage in his tracks.

    But no.

    An another 6 people turned there backs on Trayvon at the farceical circus passed of as a trial in Merica.

    • Olivia says:

      That’s the thing about a gun. Don’t have to work hard to kill. Just aim and pull a trigger.

      Mission accomplished. Dead.

      Easy to kill with a gun.

      Oddly, gun advertisements tend to portray gun owners/buyers as strong, powerful people.

      Carrying a handgun? You’re powerful. You can destroy a life with just a movement of your finger.

      Carrying an assault rifle? You’re super powerful. You can destroy many lives just by moving your finger like so.

      A handgun made Zimmerman feel powerful.

      Zimmerman thought Trayvon had a gun in his waist band?

      NO, NO, NO.

      Zimmerman saw that Trayvon did not have a gun in his waist band.

      He saw that Trayvon was a lightweight teenager wearing an earbud while talking on a phone.

      Lightweight. Teenager. Talking on the phone. Easy prey if he doesn’t have a gun.

      Trayvon ran.

      Predator Zimmerman knew that prey who has a gun isn’t fearful, and doesn’t run. He knew that prey who has a gun stands his ground and will move his finger to defend himself against any predator who wishes to destroy him.

      When Trayvon ran, Zimmerman, in true predator style, gave chase, knowing that his lightweight prey did not have a gun to
      defend himself against Zimmerman’s plan to kill him.

      Zimmerman’s voice during the NEN call changes to a plead when he asks if the police can call him when they arrive.

      At that moment, he desperately wanted the freedom to continue pursuing his prey.


      Listen to the change of his voice. He desperately wanted the NEN operator to grant him one wish.

      A wish to not stop pursuing such easy prey. Easy prey – lightweight, no gun to defend himself, running away in fear.

      Please don’t make me return to my truck.

      Can you have them call me when they get here?



      • Olivia says:

        Of course, it is likely that predator Zimmerman would have continued to pursue his prey, Trayvon, even if the NEN operator turned down his plea to not return to his truck, and instead have police call him.

      • MDH says:

        Note the fear in GZ’s voice when he makes the following remarks:

        He is looking at me

        He is reaching into his waist

        He is balack

        When he sees Trayvon run, he all of a sudden becomes Mr. Macho chasing after the assholes who always get away.

        You sir, have read that creep like a book.

        • Olivia says:

          Predator Zimmerman would never pursue a person whom he thought had a gun in his waist band.

          The phrases he spoke during that call were part of his setting the stage.

          Zimmerman never felt that Trayvon was a threat to him. Zimmerman knew all along that Trayvon did not have a gun.

          His words to the NEN operator were all part of his act. A story line that he may have rehearsed.

          I’m curious as to whether his prior NEN calls included some of the phrases that he used during his February 26th call.

          “Looking at me”, “Reaching into his waist”, and later – “Circling my truck” .

          The NEN operator momentarily interrupted his pursuit of Trayvon. Momentarily, because pursuing his prey, the light-weight teen who didn’t have a gun, was much too thrilling to stop and return to his truck.

          I know that a single event of male dominance fighting in dogs who live in the same home can be interrupted, but at some point within 3 days of the interrupted event, the most dominant dog will attack again, even more brutally, having been forced to repress aggression when interrupted during the initial fight.

          The only way to avert the second, more vicious attack is to keep the dogs separated for at least 3 days.

          Same goes for predator Zimmerman.

          • type1juve says:

            ITA and that’s why I think Trayvon’s murder was premeditated. Fogen knew what he wanted to do the second he exited his truck, he was determined that his prey was NOT getting away.

    • Drew says:

      Zimm had to shoot as he was in imminent danger of being arrested for kidnapping.

  33. elcymoo says:

    After George Zimmerman Rescued Family, Hilarious #ThanksGeorge Twitter Feed Was Born


    On Monday, it was reported that George Zimmerman helped drag a family from an overturned truck just a mile from the spot where he shot Trayvon Martin. Of course, the right immediately responded with smug satisfaction, saying it confirmed their assertion that Zimmerman was a hero all along for (apparently), ridding the world of a Skittles-bearing teenager who sometimes smoked weed.

    The rescue hasn’t gone unnoticed on Twitter, where an hilarious twitter feed erupted. Here are some of the posts on #thanksgeorge:

    Boo Ferrigno @TheDiLLon1
    George Zimmerman crashed thru the skylight & told me there’s 70% off crossfit on groupon right now. He’s a hero. #ThanksGeorge

    7:15 AM – 23 Jul 2013
    DJDeeLamont @DJDeeLamont
    Zimmerman just saved me 16% on my. Car insurance #ThanksGeorge

    Zimmerman just appeared behind me as I was creating a new password and whispered, “That’s not strong enough”. #ThanksGeorge.

    Wes Ward @WesWardComedy

    Just saw George Zimmerman breast feed a litter of abandon puppies. #ThanksGeorge

    Michael B @SloppyJoeeeeee

    I was left with yellow starburst untill George Zimmerman dropped down from a helicopter and replaced them with pink ones #ThanksGeorge #Hero

    Casey Cheney @numbr1mansman

    George Zimmerman ate the vegetables off my plate while my parents weren’t looking until he found my dog. #ThanksGeorge

    Shira Amos @ms_al2gether

    George Zimmerman just blocked Web MD on my computer so I wouldn’t diagnose myself with Lupus for the sixth time. #ThanksGeorge

    Brendon Henning @bren_henn

    Zimmerman just burst through the door and stopped me right as I was about to print. I hadn’t selected print on both sides. #ThanksGeorge

    Boo Ferrigno @TheDiLLon1

    Zimmerman just rappelled down a skyscraper to inform an old lady her checking account was almost overdrawn. #ThanksGeorge

    • Lynn says:

      That’s inspiring. Must go tweet now 🙂

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Oh, my goodness, those are funny. Thanks, Elcymoo. I needed a good giggle this morning.
      And, if folks don’t care for the way Fred leads this site, well too bad.
      I guess I’m not in the mood to read comments from WATBs.

      • cielo62 says:

        Deborah~ (( what are WATBs?))


        • Deborah Moore says:

          (whispering) Whiney Ass Titty Babies.
          Sorry. I shouldn’t be name calling. It’s a term an old curmudgeon friend of mine used to use, before he passed. I say it with a sort of fondly. 🙂
          Cielo! Are you doing any enjoyable summery sorts of activities before the school semester starts up again?

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Fondness, I meant. 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Deborah- LOL! I like that! I’ll be using that soon. Today I’m heading out to Livingston for a cat transport. I don’t like the heat of summer so I don’t go out much. But I do love driving! So here I go!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • groans says:

            @ Deborah Moore – Thanks. Glad you meant it with fondness. 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Deborah- you are too cool for Skool!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • elcymoo says:

        You’re welcome, Deborah. I’m going to have to go read more of the tweets, but I don’t have a twitter account myself. More and more, I think the ‘rescue’ tale smacks of GZ’s tale about organizing black churches to protest the SPD’s treatment of the black homeless man, Sherman Ware. If it were true, why hasn’t the name of the man who helped George rescue the folks in the SUV been at least mentioned?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      LOL. Wish Fogen had just stopped the neighbor’s gardner from using that weedwhacker that sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard at the crack of dawn, just sayin’.

    • aussie says:

      This is the best. Kill him with ridicule. Laugh at him. Every day.

    • groans says:

      LOL! These are great.

    • cielo62 says:

      elcymoo~ You know, I really really hope he sees those. It would chap his backside, since morons like him can’t stand to be ridiculed.


      • elcymoo says:

        If GZ doesn’t see them, cielo, you know that his dad or brother will. They stayed on social media sites constantly before the trial, spewing their racist bile all over the place.

    • lurker says:

      Funny thing is that after all O’Mara’s big talk about Zim going into hiding from all the fringe folks bent on killing he’s still hanging around Sanford.

  34. crazy1946 says:

    I’m going to take a little time off and attempt to not post here for a while. For now it will probably be better for me to do some independent research on the cases that are quickly coming up. While a more unified voice would be advantageous in approaching these cases, that does not seem to be in the works from the tone of discussion here at this time. My feeling is that one singular voice of dissent in these new trials will have more effect that none at all.. I will continue to read here and if/when the discussion shifts from the past toward the future then I will rejoin the discussion. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to participate…

    • Malisha says:

      crazy, why not post here and post on future cases and the research you do and we can join in the discussion? Professor doesn’t bar “OT” comments.

      Furthermore, I feel like responding in a small way. The reason I want to keep pressure on this case is that it is the “perfect” case for a real “anatomy of a cover-up,” which has NEVER BEEN DONE in our country, never once. If we can require DOJ to really investigate the cover-up, something significant will have happened other than just one more victim being killed while the hero got all his kudos from other murderous [whether overt or covert] racists.

      Something came to me last night:

      If [I don’t know how to do that “CROSS-OUT” thing on wordpress] WHEN Fogen kills again, there WILL be riots and there WILL be violence and there MAY even be frank anarchy and chaos at least in certain places. If [or] when he kills again is not a fanciful stretch of the imagination unfortunately. When you enable, condone, and then reward bad behavior, you inevitably get WORSE and MORE bad behavior. How much worse can you get than murder for self-aggrandizement? MORE murder for MORE self-aggrandizement. Fogen’s appetite has not been satisfied; it has been whetted.

    • Patience, my friend. My next post will address where we are going.

      Yes, I do have a plan and change is imminent.

  35. Malisha says:

    I also believe Judge Nelson’s final weird little smile was duping delight.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That’s what I saw. I was horrified by her little smiley nonsense during the verdict. Who the hell does that, like she’s overseeing a tea party? Oops, guess she was.

  36. Malisha says:

    @sophia33 — do you feel that I attacked you at any point? If so just tell me which thread it’s on so I can go read it, if you don’t mind. Thanks.

  37. groans says:

    Professor: I wish you had communicated like this during the trial.

    I feel that you let us down during trial by not mentioning the sorts of things you discuss in this article. Surely you were observing and recognizing these things as they were occurring, yet it seemed like you basically declared another “great day for the prosecution” every day.

    There were SO many “teachable” moments as the trial was progressing about witness handling, strategies, and so much more – but no teaching.

    Also, there was considerable tension between people who recognized severe weaknesses the State’s prosecution of the case and those who could not tolerate any “negativity.” I think there were many “teachable” moments there, too – for example, regarding balancing the need to realistically / objectively assess how a case is progressing against the need to keep one’s chin up and push forward. A voice of substantial, pertinent experience is what we most needed, IMO.

    I’m being very broad in this comment, I realize. But I felt like the professor who had been teaching us so much for over a year in preparation for this trial by-and-large disappeared during the trial.

    I wanted to express this for feedback purposes and also just to be honest and frank (sometimes a good approach, and sometimes not, but an approach that feels right to me). What you do here is your prerogative, obviously.

    Peace, and goodnight.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember how fast the trial was and how we were both watching and reading comments simultaneously? (Because of a problem with my computer, I couldn’t do that because as soon as I play more than 30 seconds of SOUND my computer goes down for half an hour and will NOT come back up no matter what.) I hope we don’t transfer our feelings of betrayal to Professor when who betrayed us was a corrupt police force, a corrupt sheriff’s office, a corrupt court and a corrupt state agency.

      • groans says:

        Correct, as usual, Malisha. It was definitely crazy trying to keep up with it all. And though I don’t feel any sense of betrayal or other personal affront, your point about transferring feelings is certainly sage advice. Thanks.

    • aussie says:

      Groans, a lot of the “fix is in” people were daily posting lists of questions they thought should have been asked, and using the absence of them as “proof”. In every single case the questions they wanted either belonged to another witness’s area of testimony or would have called for inadmissible speculation or opinion. They were usually told to go away because of this ( a fair few times by me) , because these were weaknesses in their understanding of the rules of evidence, not weaknesses in the case.

      We did expect a good summary of the timeline BY AN EXPERT not just in closing arguments: until that failed to materialise we could not criticise the lack of it. Ditto for good rebuttal witnesses. A minimalist main case can be a good way to prevent the defence getting a good purchase on the case, then shoot them away with a strong rebuttal.

      Many of us were working on the assumption they were trying to win. When no rebuttal witnesses were called — and one was allowed to “not be able to make it” — it became obvious this was a wrong assumption. But the people crying FIX FIX from day one had no evidence for it. They turned out to be right, but on gut feeling, not the “reasons” they were giving every couple of hours.

      In the end though, going on their statements so far, the jurors were never going to convict no matter what, even if there was full colour video of the fight and shooting.

      I do hope sites where doxing has not been banned DO out B37 and her relationship to key players.

      • groans says:

        I understand what you’re saying and your rationale. Thanks.

      • lurker says:

        I think that one critical element that the prosecution failed to provide to the jury was a reasonable explanation for Z’s injuries. While they did work to minimize the injuries, this was muddied by the defense and allowed to stand the assumption that all of Z’s injuries were delivered, without provocation, by Trayvon.

    • crazy1946 says:

      After reading this post along with several others from the last several days, I had composed a long winded response. Then it occurred to me how futile it would be to even address my thoughts about what is taking place now that the trial is over. We as a group can stand around whining and crying oh woe are we, or we can accept we have lost one battle in a war and regroup and continue the fight we have started. I’m not suggesting that we forget Trayvon, but I am saying that if we continue to stand on a bridge that one end has already burned while someone attempts to light the other end on fire, we will end up stuck on a bridge to no where! The choice is ours to make, do we put knuckle bandages on our wounds and sit here and cry, or do we fight off the pain of this setback and go forth and continue the war against inequality that we have started… I’ve made my choice, I refuse to quit in the middle of the war….

      • cielo62 says:

        crazy~ I agree with you. It’s time to gear up for the next trials. Shellie and Dunn. I hope we’re up for it, because I ALSO refuse to stop mid-war for justice for all.


        • Never fear, Fred is here.

          And I have plans.

          • dianetrotter says:


          • HappyinNM says:

            Is one of your plans the Sherry West case? She’s the woman whose baby in a stroller was shot in the face. New evidence just emerged that both she and her husband had gun powder residue on their hands. Meanwhile, 2 black teenagers (17 & 15) have been charged, both as adults. Another case of 911 calls but no eyewitnesses.

    • roderick2012 says:

      groans: Professor: I wish you had communicated like this during the trial.

      I always thought that the lack of posts by the Professor were because he couldn’t believe the crap that was happening during the trial.

      • groans says:

        Good thought … stunned, like the rest of us. But while we could jabber and squabble safely within our realm of semi-ignorance, he didn’t enjoy such a luxury.

    • nemerinys says:

      groans, I agree. After reading Fred’s posts (and, of course, many of the wonderful comments)for over a year, I felt the lack of Fred’s presence during the trial. Commenters were asking questions that went unanswered, and there times when we really needed him to help us understand the legal aspects of events as they were happening. I do know, though, that both he and Crane-Station had appointments they couldn’t dismiss, and problems with their computer. But, still, I was extremely disappointed that he wasn’t more around during the trial we had all anticipated for so long.

      • groans says:

        Thanks, nemerinys. I certainly didn’t expect to see any agreement and appreciate the candor and courage in your reply.

  38. Two sides to a story says:

    I think someone posted this a few articles ago, but it seemed interesting to look at it again.

    Watch A Preacher Succinctly Explain What Everyone Missed About The Trayvon Martin Case

    • crazy1946 says:

      This man brought out excellent points that need to be addressed and corrected! Hopefully people will listen and respond in a positive light…. Thanks for re-posting the link, I had missed it somehow the first time it had been posted…..

  39. turtlecoal says:

    George Zimmerman was never going to be convicted. This country is set up for white supremacy. The 1st president owned another human being. A black human being.

    I didnt want to see or believe that a country who has made such progress in race relations (& mind you blacks didnt offer to be here so its still not a choice but a circumstance) could be so far back in race relations that a child could die & its business as usual & the SPD, prosecution, defense, & media are part of this scheme & its the same in most cities in America.

    To me a being a proud “Pops” to 3 sons this verdict sent a message to black fathers. I didnt say daddy I said FATHERS who nourish our kids without government assistance or crime. That my sons means nothing in America. In WW3 alot of “redtails” will be grounded, george killed a potential “redtail” & doesnt understand this neither do most racist. I fought in war but thru racism, 4 potential “redtails” wont. We need to stop sugar coating this disease this nation has & realise, its terminal.

    I will give you something that let me know the prosecution was in on the fix. Its called LOST IN TRANSLATION. The first day of Rachel Jeantals testimony I missed & then seen the next day of her testimony & was pleased, than I viewed her prior testimony & was shocked.

    Remeber BDLR is a prosecution attorney & common sense works especially well when the defendant is black. But he seriously is not a good prosecutor he just had the right defendant coming thru the door<—- critical think that.

    Thats when I knew BDLR was part of fix. She spoke 3 different languages including FRENCH which as a language when spoken is beautiful to the ears. & the prosecution did not set her up with a interpreter in COURT. Her english is horrible just like the hispanic ladies & she had a interpreter, to better her at getting her view across. This let me know that the BDLR wasnt trying to win.

    Don west attacking her on the stand would have appeared absurd. Him screaming & the french interpreter would say it in a beautiful language & her response in french would have been time consuming & perfection of one of the most beautiful heard languages on earth.

    His Pitbull antics against Rachel would have been null & void. The fix was in because It would be LOST IN TRANSLATION.

    • Xena says:

      @turtlecoal. I understand what you’re saying and cannot disagree. Consider, when Don West asked Jeantel if she understood English, I knew what game he was playing, which was, if she had a difficult time understanding English, then how did she understand Trayvon? And, if she has a difficult time speaking English, then how was she able to ask Trayvon what was happening?

      If we pay attention to what Juror B37 said on AC360, we should know that she only paid attention to 2 witnesses, Donnelley and Serino — and she violated the court’s instruction pertaining to Serino saying he found GZ to be honest. It made no difference what any witness said, didn’t say or the manner in which they testified. As per her former literary agent, Juror B37 was of the belief that GZ should not have been charge.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s why I always felt that 16 hours deliberation was not enough. If those jurors were really going over every bit of evidence and testimony with an open mind, they would have taken far longer. They didn’t search for the truth;they went with an emotional factor that aligns with their ideology.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides. Absolutely.

          • turtlecoal says:

            This trial was over as soon as this creepy ass cracka seen Trayvon. & all the legal diatribe is useless, the professor, who might be proficient in white supremacy laws (& if you dont think the system is rigged you would not be here) always said one thing that stood out & that was KISS & really this case was a no brainer

            *Domestic Violence* = white supremacy( Creepy ass CrackaCracka Cracka Cracka Cracka but the keyword is CREEPY SOOOOO white white white white white the key word is?)

            Domestic Violence*=white supremacy, if the people or person they are abusing claims they will *leave* & then white supremacy say’s they will get better or get help & then it kills the person they are involved with= Trayvon.

            The whole system needs to fall, but hard work is needed. white supremacy laws will never work & those written & studied from this point of view are doomed to fail. THAT means American laws are obsolete.

            Black supremacy is honest. Why? Whites, asians & latino’s come from Africa,(black black black black black black is not the keyword).

            On feb 26 Trayvon was listening to a “Change gonna come” from the late great Sam Cooke,<—–critical think that

            I hear it as a recording!!! <—–critical think that

            The lions are awakening & were pissed

  40. TheUsualSuspects says:

    I’m glad you wrote this post. From the first day, I commented that lack of witness prep and witness control were problematic. It was so frustrating to observe.

    First, I could not believe the prosecution did not impeach their own witnesses (e.g., Goode, Serino, Singleton). Serino’s and Singleton’s tones of voice in the challenge video make clear they thought GZ was a liar. No way I’d let Serino get away with testifying that he thought GZ was telling the truth.

    Another problem was lack of understanding of the rules of evidence, but that was noticeable on both sides. MO’M had lots of speaking objections because he didn’t know how to articulate the rule without stating how he felt about the testimony. Worse, though, were the prosecution’s late objections or failure to object at all.

    I mean, seriously, the last defense witness should have been objected to on relevance grounds. She did not witness the murder, GZ did not tell her his side of the story, and she could not speak to GZ’s state of mind because she did not know what GZ was thinking at the time he killed Trayvon. Permitting that witness to testify about some random guy who broke into her house also raised a Rule 403 issue. (If the prosecution objected to this witness’ testimony, I missed it, so please correct me if I’m wrong.)

    Next, the cardboard cutouts and cement props displayed during the defense closing argument should have been objected to as prejudicial (mischaracterized the evidence because Trayvon not that much taller, and a piece of cement block was not hurled or used as a bludgeoning device); speculative (cardboard cutout heights and body angles not to scale, plus relative height of victim and accused were estimates lacking foundation for how they would appear side by side WITHOUT the hoodie up); as well as lacking relevance (that slab of concrete was not a sidewalk, nor was it from the sidewalk the defense claimed was the “weapon”). Circus sideshow.

    Finally, the jury instructions were proof of, perhaps, a deeper issue. Mantei argued most of the important motions because he had a better grasp of the case law and legislative history of the rules of evidence. But, Mantei was the most junior prosecutor on the case. I repeat, the most junior prosecutor had the best grasp of the evidence and the law. What’s wrong with this picture?

    • Malisha says:

      Because he was the junior he might not have been privy to the real plan. He was actually trying to WIN!

      • lady2soothe says:

        Mantei was the only one from the prosecution who apologized to the family and he was positively devastated by the outcome as evidenced by his words and body language.

    • Xena says:

      I mean, seriously, the last defense witness should have been objected to on relevance grounds.

      Yes. The defense slipped her in as a character witness. The prosecution was going to rebut by bringing in the officer that GZ assaulted. After a side-bar, the prosecution much have changed their mind. The prosecution should have put on a rebuttal to tear GZ up, including that he lied about getting his college degree.

      Also, the “frightened of Black men” neighbor should have been cross-examined based on the police report which, IIRC, reported that she recognized one of the men because they had come to her house previously to visit.

      The same is true for the neighbor who testified from bed. She should have been called during rebuttal and asked whether she was invited to GZ’s (non) graduation party. They could have asked her if there were any children at the Zimmerman house (like the ones Osterman told him to keep the gun from and those he claimed to mentor).

      The prosecution appeared to want to avoid the defense from slandering Trayvon but my question for that is, who were they going to get to testify? No one.

      • TheUsualSuspects says:

        Xena, I concur. The prosecution avoided presentation of character evidence out of fear of what the defense would say about Trayvon. Nothing Trayvon ever did in his 16 years +11 days would have compared to a child molester who battered an LEO and a nightclub patron, was violent against an ex-girlfriend, chased strangers at high speeds through the streets of Sanford, created a racially hostile work environment, and called the cops on kindergartners, all while high on prescription drugs.

        I think it was Fred who said in a post some time ago that the prosecution played from defensive position early on. They should have set the tone during opening statements by objecting to Mr. Don’s stream-of-conscious ramble as improper argument. And, don’t get me started on the cumulative presentation of fake audio “experts.”

        BDLR relied on his experience while Guy relied on his charm (and, arguably, some of the finest writing and oratory skills I’ve seen in awhile). What they both needed was to use those assets to explain to the jury how the facts fit with the law and how lesser included offenses work. Mantei could only do so much when closing arguments were out of his hands. My heart breaks for the guy. He was visibly crushed after the verdict was announced. I thought he was going to cry.

  41. Yorazigo says:

    Just on WFTV News at 11:00 pm – some poor inocent elderly man whose name is unfortunately “George Zimmerman” receiving harassing phone calls! Horrible!

  42. Drew says:

    I’ve had friends suggest that, in order to protect my daughters, I would kill someone who was breaking in to my house. I ask them what that has to do with a kid walking home from 711. Should I shoot him, too, just in case, or just the would-be daughter-raper?

    These are the types of people who were on that jury.

  43. Drew says:

    Everyone in the world knows who was really screaming in that recording. Only racists and, worse yet, peddlers of color-blind centrism believe it was Zimmertits or cast doubt by saying “aw shucks we’ll just never know whose voice that really was! Ahyuck!” (Btw I hate those people more than I hate the overt racists).

    When one dude dies by being shot in the heart, it’s clear that he was the one screaming for his life, not the guy who got a weird bloody nose and some scratches on the back of his head.

    Since no one apparently saw any of the actual death, yeah, shucks I guess we’ll never “know” with 100% certainty who was screaming, but good lord that’s a cheap devil’s advocate argument for philosophy 101, not something that honest, sentient people would actually think. Anyone who doubts the scream is a sick and twisted racist. Or I guess they actually believe stuff like, when you hide something behind a door maybe it isn’t actually there anymore because no one can see it! Ahyuck!

    The more I think about this horseshit circus trial the more I realize what a sham it was. Not even for the bungling prosecution, and only half for the obvious racism of O’Smeara’s BLAKK THUG narrative. The other half is the gun culture horseshit.

    Say Zimmershit was actually being beaten to death, but didnt have a gun. Then he somehow gets free and kicks BLAKK THUG KILLA in the balls or something and there’s a reversal of fortune and he starts fighting back. Big time! If he spends 10+ minutes or so bashing THUGGIE’s face in, well after there was no danger, you know just using excessive force and ends up killing him with his bare hands / feet – then I don’t think the self defense thing holds up. I think the sick Florida jury had a boner for the fact that a gun was used and wanted to reward Zimmerfatfuck for using it. Bonus points for killing a MENACING THUG!

    • Malisha says:

      I agree, Drew. I hate the liars worse than the killers.

      Remember what O’Mara first said on his money-tour: Send money if YOU WOULD DO what GEORGE DID.

      That’s who our jurors were: people who “would do what George did.”

      • crazy1946 says:

        I have a feeling that when the POTUS said that if he had a son he would be like Trayvon, the vote in many of the potential juror’s would have been not guilty by political reason…… Too many people I know find any thing that President Obama says to be an affront to their world…. Too bad they judge the man by the color of his skin and not the deeds he does……

    • dianetrotter says:

      Trayvon would have had to been a mad dog to attack gz, threatening, no fear, even to the point of losing his life. Lies! Lies! Lies!

  44. degraveegmailcom says:

    Having heard two of those jurors now i’m convinced they were primed the questions and the answers are rehearsed and way to identical.This juror has heard the b37 interview of course as well.

    • Malisha says:

      Jurors are now helping each other out so they can circle the wagons in case there is some investigation. I am sure they are linked somehow, especially since the sheriff’s office was in charge of the sequestration and ran it the way they run all their corrupt activities.

  45. Momma says:

    There is another petition at for an Investigation of the Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement agencies in Florida for irregularities in Trayvon Martin Case.

    It only has 324 signatures. 😦

  46. MDH says:

    How come these jurors get soft ball questions?

    My first one would be:

    How, pray tell, does Trayvon press his hands over all that blood dripping from the tip of GZ’s nose and not smear is all over the face?

    Number 2:

    How does a person scream that loud with a hands pressed over their nose and face?

    Number 3

    The defense audio expert testified that the scream was from someone in imminent fear of death, correct?

    How does someone who never heard GZ scream due to being in imminent fear of death know that was GZ?

    Number 4

    GZ testified that he had wrist control and moved his hand to get a clear shot to Trayvon’s heart. How is that putting GZ in imminent fear of death and how does that not put Trayvon in fear of death?

    I could go on.

    My points.

    These jurors were lazy sacks of shit who accepted arguments as evidence and did not even bother to comb over the data with critical thinking.

    These jurors were racist and, as long as there was some data to cherry pick to cover their ass, they were going to find GZ not guilty.

  47. aussie says:

    The case was lost on JURY SELECTION.

    a) who listed the jury order? to make sure maybe only 2 of the first 50 were truly clean enough to qualify?
    b) why didn’t the prosecution ask more pointed questions and remove more potential jurors?

    It would not have mattered if they ran the best case in the world, with a stacked jury they were not going to win.

    Apart from that the HUGE MISTAKE they made was to run the trial on the DEFENCE’S TERMS. All that 15 months of media hype and rubbish WORKED. Not just to taint the jury pool, but to poison the prosecution’s minds.

    By listening to what O’Mara said were the main points, the points he was making week after week, they ran the prosecution case as if they were the defence against O:’Mara’s claims.

    They let the defence DEFINE the case as being about the moment of the fight and about who screamed. They tried to demolish the self-defence story by trying to show GZ lied about it.

    But the important thing he lied about was the STALKING, which he tried to hide by never even mentioning it unless asked about it point blank. ZIMMERMAN knew he was in the wrong by following, how come the PROSECUTION didn’t?

    Whether Trayvon attacked him or not (and I don’t for a minute believe he ever got a single punch in) the whole situation was CAUSED by GZ. If he hadn’t followed and stalked, he’d not been in a location to get into a fight. At which point, as the aggressor (stalking for however short a time is ASSAULT) he should have backed down before being entitled to call self-defence,

    O’Mara had telegraphed months ahead he was going to defend on the injury and screams. They should have prosecuted on the STALKING and catch O’mara flat-footed.

    The prosecution allowed themselves to be CONNED by the Trial By Media.

    They lost because they let the defence tell them what their case is.

    • Yorazigo says:

      IMBW, but I firmly believe all of MOM and other defense propaganda from day one was nothing less than JURY TAMPERING. Every aspect of this case should be investigated from start to finish.

      And one point that I always thought about the shooting – even IF Trayvon was responsible for GZ’s boo boos ( and I don’t think he was) and GZ felt justified to use his gun, there was NO reason to shoot to kill. A shot to an arm or leg would have been enough to incapacitate TM so that GZ could get away. The police were only a minute away!

      • aussie says:

        It was an attempt to poison the jury pool. You can’t tamper with a jury until there is one.

        There is nothing to investigate. Apparently all those public lies and demonising of the victim are legal — because there is no law, like there is in many other countries, that the “facts” of a case cannot be spoken about in public until the trial. In such countries while something is “sub judice” (under judgement) the facts cannot be discussed. This goes a long way towards fair trials.

        Of course in those systems there’s no public evidence dumps either. The reason some States in the US have that is precisely because of what happened here — cases are corrupted and lies are told, so they allow publication of the evidence as a way for the public to keep track of a law enforcement and judiciary they don’t trust.

        It would be far better if the State itself was keeping an eye and doing something about it. That will never happen while judges, prosecutors, and in many places police chiefs are ELECTED officials in a small area.

        Nothing done wrong in one country effects the rest of the State, as it would where these people are appointed (on merit) from a central office. And it has to be cleaned up county by county, city by city. In a State-wide system the whole lot can be cleaned up in one hit, and is more likely to be, as all the wrongs everywhere come back on the same organisation.

        • Yorazigo says:

          Technically, you are absolutely correct, but bottom line whatever word is used, the intent and purpose was the same.

      • MollyK says:

        Yes, and GZ made it clear that he aimed carefully. He chose his shot. Straight into the heart of a child.

    • willisnewton says:

      very well put aussie.

    • Xena says:

      With the exception of potential jurors E40 and B37, Mark O’Mara asked other potential jurors how they would handle it if other jurors talked about information that did not come from the “courtroom.” When questioning E40, he used the word “witness stand.” She did not give him the answer of a stealth juror.

      O’Mara asked juror B37 if she would advise other jurors that if the information didn’t come from the “witness stand” that it couldn’t be considered.

      Watching her AC360 interview, juror B37 didn’t think that GZ’s tapes and videos were important. (They did not come from the witness stand.) The straddling demonstration, Hannity interview, clubhouse videos, and phone records, were no doubt treated in the same manner — they didn’t come from the “witness stand.”

      • ay2z says:

        Interesting, Zena. But all evidence was admitted via a witness, a custodian of records, so if she misunderstood, that’s a big problem.

        • Xena says:

          @ay2z. Right, it was entered via a custodian, but the custodian did not testify what it meant. GZ didn’t testify, so anything jurors understood from his statements would be discouraged by Juror B37 because it didn’t come from the “witness stand.”

  48. RobertSF says:

    Let’s not mince words. The prosecution threw the case like a boxer with too many debts to the underworld throws a fight. But more than the prosecution, the entire affair was a sham from the start. The police investigated half-heartedly, the state prosecuted half-heartedly, and there was no way a jury of six white people was going to send a non-black person to prison over the death of a black guy.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Smokeegyrl, I really wish I could sign the petition, however I have no face book account (and will not have one) so I could not! Sorry…….

  49. LBTG says:

    Is there any accountability for the lawyers, jurors, witnesses, judge? The Zimmerman verdict stands no matter what. But I’d like to see some investigation on “insider trading” that is punishable by some jail time to set an example. Iif no one cannot or will not hold any of these preople who compromised the trial, then we’re wasting our time.

  50. me says:

    This trial was a mini political campaign. Seminole county was determined to defeat Al Sharpton. Maybe Serino didn’t like being name dropped on MSNBC? We talk about B37 but I’m sure the pool was full of duplicates.

    • concernedczen says:

      It just goes to show that the jury was stacked with racists because that area of the country is stacked with racists.

      • KateW says:

        Agreed. From the SPD, the courts and the jury. OMara is likely a racist too. He claims to have defended many a Black persons but that doesn’t mean he isn’t racist. Just means when it comes to defending someone, all money is green.

      • Malisha says:

        That was exactly why the civil rights act was passed in 1871: because in the South, racists were not punished because law enforcement and the courts were racists. Slave-owners owned the courts and the sheriffs and the police and the slave patrols (of which Fogen was one) and the state governments. THAT is why the federal law was needed and that is why it was passed. Recent administrations and the recent courts have gutted it, with decisions that basically say that constitutional rights only belong to corporations. This is what we are becoming.

    • Trained Observer says:

      The injuries, huh. Those little boo-boos that likely Fogen inflicted on himself with the gun recoil and banging his own head? With that rationale, any schoolyard shoving match can rightfully end with a hollow point to the heart.

      • Malisha says:

        We will get there, TO. And the kids with the hollowpoints will be Fogenbabies.

      • pat deadder says:

        I’m no genius but how did they get 35 feet down the path.Oh I can’t do this anymore.These jurors are not only racists but mentally handicapped as well I guess that goes with being racist.They don’t even try to make sense.Of couse Hannity was no help.

    • Lynn says:

      JUROR E54: No, I did not use those testimonies in my evaluation.

      He completely ignored all statements from GZ. Really, like the stories he made up that contradicted everything were of no value. *cue Bao’s little finger zero* Nothing Zero.

      I looked at his little boo-boos and that was enough for me. No need to listen to what he told detectives/investigators. Never mind what he said on your show, Hannity. Just needed to see the little boo-boos and I was ready to declare TM a murderer…

      This man is as clueless as the rest. I think the word is CLOSE-MINDED. Evidence, schmevidence.

  51. Judy A Vallejos says:

    im still in disbelief and denial and hope that something will change this awful verdict

    and I just thought of something, was there any information put forth about Trayvon’s wrist? zimmerass told the cops he had put Trayvon in a wrist control lock.

    • bettykath says:

      Guy mentioned it in the closing. No big deal. Nothing to see here. Keep moving.

    • bettykath says:

      If it was said in the interview with Serino, he should have been asked about it, three different ways. If it was said in the interview prior to the VST, it was not admitted as evidence.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      At this point, do think there was thorough autopsy done?
      Make no mistake, the ME usually works “with” the investigators. The ME has an overview of the investigation going in. They are looking for certain things to support the going story-line. Whatever that may be.

      Many times photos reveal things not documented. Many times, known imperfections are not documented. If I were Sabrina, I would want to view every photograph of my son’s autopsy. Well, up to the Y incision.

      Fact is, there are many photos of the scene that we haven’t seen. Get them ALL!!!!

      I don’t know Trayvon, but I want to believe GZ physically detained him. Perhaps there are twisting marks or scratches of some sort.

      She needs to just ask for them and see what kind of reaction/support she gets…..

    • Jasmine says:

      I remember something being wrong with his brain, I think it had to do with being oxygen deprived. Does anyone remember that? I was mentioned before Fogen was arrested.

      • aussie says:

        Swelling on the brain and also in the liver. Caused by the oxygen deprivation, as you say.

        Being deprived of BLOOD he’d not have had time to develop any bruising, which is blood seeping out of damaged capillaries and veins. A wrist lock or arm lock might not produce any bruising in any case. .

  52. colin black says:

    Trained Observer says:

    July 23, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    I hope the family in the overturned vehicle recognized Fogen and asked him to leave the scene at their earliest convenience. Who wants to be around that murdering clown even in a time of distress?

    How to
    Rehabilite the image of foggage the most lucky hated man in Merica .

    Step one approach seed PR /Agent botton feeder type Beaze ect.

    Step Two stage a false flag type senerio wer up on foggage just happens to be deiveing along a road .

    Spots an incident an rushes in all guns blazeing?

    To Soon

    OK A staged fire or something .

    Stage three at homie with the zimms reality show.

    Comeing to a Merica near you!

    • type1juve says:

      Agreed! This trial was lost when they selected the jury. The prosecution did make plenty of mistakes and I believe JN is biased. But how do you overcome a group of racists who have already decided that the murderer is innocent? Remember we couldn’t see the jury, perhaps the prosecution knew early on what they were dealing with in trying to convince them that a black child’s life has value.

  53. colin black says:

    Wouldn’t have mattered .

    B D L R Could have sent them to a 16 month seminar on how to be the perfect witness.
    How to answer questions an when to remain silent.

    DD The beutifall An my Special Gall could have been sent to a Swiss finishing School learned how to balance books on her head.

    Etiqete an the correct way to eat a muffin.

    None of that would have made a difference to the6 jurours picked.

    They were going to let the accused self conffeased CHILD KILLER walk come what may.

    The defence could have shown them a punch an judy show an still won there case.

    Hey wait a minute that’s exactly what they did.

    Not a Punch an Judy

    But a plea to the jury to let him walk.


  54. Nef05 says:

    Absolutely Professor. There is no excuse for the ramshackle display put on by these experienced prosecutors, with regard to their witnesses and many, many other issues. The combined years of their experience, combined with their percentage of winning cases they’ve tried, makes that abundantly clear.

  55. willisnewton says:

    in order: the vehicle was not secured at the crime scene, so the “no pocket money” argument goes no where. He could have had money in the car.

    Wolfinger would never press charges on the night of the murder. While his actions have not been the subject of any credible investigation, to say that murder charges would be leveled on the night of the killing is not how it works.

    There is no one “higher up” in the Florida government than the governor to “call off the dogs” so that seems neither here nor there.

    While there is much to complain about, you might want to look elsewhere to cast blame.

  56. KateW says:

    Professor these are good points! I too have said the same things. They should have counseled them better on court
    “etiquette” and they should have advised Rachel Jeantel it would be beneficial to obtain any attorney prior to court. I hope Benjamin Crump advised the same thing to her. But again, it really didn’t matter what they did, some of the jurors had already made up their mind. An example of this is juror B37 declaring Rachel Jeantel and Trayvon Martin the racist. I don’t think they really considered Shipping Bao’s testimony because in their mind Martin was the aggressor and it could be nothing else. I know people are beating up on the prosecution but frankly it didn’t matter what they did. They could have given that jury the moon and those stealth jurors would have swayed the outcome no matter what. Have any of you tried arguing with these people? Exactly, they are unreasonable, difficult to communicate with, they are stubborn and resist any kind of change that challenges their stagnant and static thought process. The prosecution got 2 for manslaughter and 1 for murder 2 so that is 50%. So I don’t think they did that horribly.

    I do question their presentation though and wonder why some evidence was not brought in. Now I do believe OMara argued his client’s phone records, texts etc. post murder were not admissible. From what I remember it was said information that was prejudicial to his client could not be introduced because it was not the defendant’s job to prove he was innocent. It was the prosecution’s job to prove he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    But if there is information in the text messages of any racial animosity or comments after the murder then would they not be in the prosecution’s hands? Were they able to use it or was it admissible?

    Well they say there was evidence of him being a racist in some of the texts he sent. This short article was dated May 30th, 2012. So why wasnt this information produced???

    • willisnewton says:

      There’s that stupid “article” that isn’t an article again. Sorry but that is just internet rumor on a worthless site that links to another sloppy site.

      When some blog starts off with “sources say,” you might want to read a little closer. What sources? When? And to whom did they “say?” etc.

      GZ seemingly emailed something disparaging about a “reverend” in the news while he was in hiding. The prosecution learned this after his arrest because they had his cell phone. Mention of this was made in court but the material was sealed since it occurred post-killing and was therefor not deemed relevant by the judge, as was proper.

      • KateW says:

        Hmm deemed not relevant by the judge. She has deemed quite a bit not relevant and leaving much out in her instructions, so I would not put too much weight on her being unbiased in this case. Perhaps there was relevant information; however, if the defense is arguing race was not a factor then of course the information would not be “relevant”.

    • bettykath says:

      Kate, the defense made a motion that racial profiling was off limits and the judge so ordered. the state didn’t object. nothing that suggested race as a factor wasn’t admissible.

      • bettykath says:

        double negative. Nothing that suggested race as a factor was admissible.

      • Girlp says:

        The state never charged racial profiling/Hate Crime so they never planned to use it…Tim Wise say’s that was a mistake. Also, it’s obvious he was racially profiling the only people he called the police on was African Americans. The only exception was his landlord, oh and the caterer. The PD didn’t find anyone doing anything wrong he did this 45 times and harrassed African Americans who lived in his community. Zimmerman clearly racially profiled.

      • Malisha says:

        Outrageous that the prosecution should be told, BEFORE ANY EVIDENCE is put on, what is NOT a factor. A huge First Amendment violation. WHere was the ACLU when THAT happened?

    • Now I do believe OMara argued his client’s phone records, texts etc. post murder were not admissible. From what I remember it was said information that was prejudicial to his client could not be introduced because it was not the defendant’s job to prove he was innocent. It was the prosecution’s job to prove he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

      GZ’s text messages qualify as statements under the rules of evidence and the prosecution could have introduced any statement by the defendant as an admission by a party opponent.

      O’Mara must have known that, so he lied.

      • type1juve says:

        It’s amazing how the defense got to keep out what they wanted and were allowed to present almost whatever they wanted to during trial. The made up video really did it for me.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s because the trial was a sham! It wasn’t a real trial at all. Just something set up to turn out the way the Governor wanted, so his financial backers would keep giving to his campaign. I’d be nice to see him lose anyway, and the prosecutor and judge as well.

  57. Elijah says:

    Get a load of this in the Miami Herald today: Witness #9 accused Zimmerman of sexually molesting repeatedly over yrs

    • Elijah says:

      Pardon from last year – saw it tweeted from @sunnyhostin today.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      That is an interesting article even though its from last year. Why didn’t BDLR do what he said he would do back then and use Fogens cousin as a rebuttal witness to his character since the defense brought his good character in with their witness’s?

      “The minute he says he is a person of good character, that opens the door to, ‘Really?’” Russell said.

      I say we remind the world that not only is Fogen a murderer, he is also a molester and post/ tweet about it as much as we can. People didn’t really talk about it much before or during trial, so now we should. It may be a case of he said/she said, but I believe her.

  58. Dee says:

    Don’t let them put us back asleep, by putting other things and cases in our minds. Let’s continue to write and flood the justice system. So that can do something about not charging this man for the murder of Trayvon. Which could have easily been one of our children. If they get away with this, others will die in this manner, and they will not give a care, as long as it is not their children are themselves getting gunned down in cold blood.

    • Nef05 says:

      I agree we should not forget or lay low in keeping this travesty of justice up front. However, I do believe we can do that and follow the other cases, at the same time. I believe Jordan Davis and others deserve our attention, as well. I don’t want to let them fall by the wayside because we focus on the unmitigated disaster of Trayvon’s case, to the exclusion of all else.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        nef says

        I believe Jordan Davis and others deserve our attention, as well. I don’t want to let them fall by the wayside because we focus on the unmitigated disaster of Trayvon’s case, to the exclusion of all else.

        i cannot agree more, nef! the DoJ will do as it wishes regarding ongoing investigations, we have next to no impact on what will happen there. yes, it’s appropriate to pause and reflect on what went wrong (or as some would say exactly right in accordance with florida legislation) in trayvon’s case. i, too, see bigger things looming ahead which need just as much of our attention and action.

    • KateW says:

      Dee, I don’t pay attention to that bull because I know that coward, who for over a year, whined he was in fear for his life would actually jump out of a car on a busy highway or roadway and “assist” anyone is preposterous, especially if he fears someone will see him and kill him. It is all a rouse to, as you say, get us off topic and off task. We are focused and 1.5 million + folks seeking justice won’t stop until they get it.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I hope the family in the overturned vehicle recognized Fogen and asked him to leave the scene at their earliest convenience. Who wants to be around that murdering clown even in a time of distress?

        • ladystclaire says:

          There is a photo of the family in question on facebook and, not a one of them is sporting so much as a knuckle band aid. this is just another lie, which seems to surround this MORON’S miserable life. I don’t care if it’s reported that he saved the life of the pope, he is what he is and, we all know what that is don’t we?

          He will “NEVER” be accepted by those of us in this country who knows, that he committed a murder and got away with it. the same goes for those of other countries who are aware of the same thing. he is not ever going to be accepted by anyone, except his fellow racist. he has made this country look like it’s just full of racist hatred by all white people, when that’s just not true. he has caused as much damage to this country as those who flew planes into the twin towers on 9/11. at least then, we were a country united together in the face of terrorism but, he has single handedly divided this country, with his actions of killing an innocent child and a kid with a future.

          I can’t help but wonder, just how many of those who support him and his criminal deed, would step up to the plate and, offer him a home with in their own family or even a job if any of them are business owners. I might be wrong but, I don’t think not a one of them would but, there are some taking up donations so he can buy another gun. there are some rather sick folks in this country and, I must say that Charles Barkley is among the fungus of this country.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Dee, I agree with you in that we should keep up the pressure on the DOJ and, let them know that this coward does not deserve to be walking around free without a care in the world, for what he did to this child. also, that jury needs to be reckoned with as well because, we know that at least one of them, was more interested in her own personal gain than seeking justice for the victim in this case. in other words, this juror was indeed a plant and, the lead defense attorney IMO was very well aware of this juror and who she was and, the same can be said of her.

      This trial was a farce from the beginning of the entire case and, it continued through out. Mark O’dirty was so concerned about his client receiving a fair trial, to the point to where a stealth juror was impaneled and, he knew her and she knew him. what about Trayvon and his family getting a fair shake at the justice that they so deserved?

      Justice was not served in this trial especially when we still have the murderer of a child on the outside and, racist people of another state are donating money to this child murderer, so he can buy another gun. these racist do indeed cling to their guns and, to hell with religion because, they “WORSHIP” guns more than they do GOD. if in fact they did cling to their religion, they wouldn’t support this murderer of a child in any way shape or form. they want to make it possible for him to murder another AA child when in fact, his very next murder victim may just be one of their own.

      The little thirteen year old from Wisconsin got his justice, Jordan Davis’s murderer will stand trial in September with Angela Corey, John Guy and Erin whose last name I don’t recall, will be prosecuting that trial. hopefully Jordan will get his justice as well but, we must continue the fight for Trayvon in the hopes of him getting his justice as well as his character being repaired from where a dirty defense attorney and his client, were allowed to smear and slander this victim. I will never forget Trayvon and, my aim is to see Fogen behind bars.

      • roderick2012 says:

        “The little thirteen year old from Wisconsin got his justice”

        True but he’s still dead just like Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis all because they were profiled as black male who had committed crimes.

        I would like to ask the old dude who killed Darius Simmons how was Simmons going to fence the stolen guns?

        Did he really believe that a thirteen year old had connections to sell stolen property or did he just want to see if he could get away with the same thing that George Zimmerman ultimately got away with?

  59. Dee says:

    This whole case was just to appease the black community. Just to show that they did bring him to court. I cannot believe in that kind of opening that they dropped the ball so badly. They did not even prove that the blood flow pattern on Zimmerman head was not showing that he was on the bottom as he began to bleed. The blood was flowing toward his ears, which is against gravity if he said he was on the bottom. I think if everybody would write and tell the Attorney general to check out the blood flow pattern on Zimmerman head. I think this may be what they could use to get this into the federal court for another trail of evidence that was not properly check out by a specialist, even though it was shown by the defense many times in court.

    • willisnewton says:

      The blood flow argument never went very far for me. Clearly the defendant stood up shortly after getting injured if he was on his back, so that’s why the blood ran around and down.

      It was never going to run UP from the back of his head to the TOP of his head unless he was doing yoga at the time.

      And the DOJ doesn’t care about blood flow – that’s not going to open the door onto a hate crime charge.

      I understand your frustration but that’s not what went wrong here IMO.

      As for “appeasing the black community” I think you missed the point entirely. Two million people of all colors signed petitions calling for an investigation into the killing. That was the impetus for both the feds and the state of Florida to act. And that was the best thing that happened – two million people realized they had political power to call into question not only the case but the laws that allowed a lying remorseless child killer to be free for weeks without facing charges. They can’t take that away from us.

      In the wake of this movement by millions, peaceful demonstrations and rallies have been held in over a hundred cities and no new states have passed any SYG laws. The laws themselves are called into question and with luck will be pressed out of existence someday as well.

      Don’t mourn, organize.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      I don’t think they touched either of those pictures. The defense did though. The prosecution may have referred to them, but didn’t use them to their advantage. Even the nose picture shows how no bleeding was done during the wrestling. No smothering happened.

      Was this jury really repulsed by the “damage” they saw? They couldn’t allow Trayvon to defend himself even a little? Maybe the creepy-ass cracker really sat wrong with them? IDK. They had to view Trayvon as disposable. Just like SPD did. I do hope folks who have watched this unfold have learned how it works. Even your own lawyers may not be working for you. I pray there is something bigger in the works. I truly do.

      Somebody needs to call this prosecution out on their failure to represent the people who see this as a man vs a teen. One who, from moment one, knew what was going on vs one who had no clue who the creeper was. One who hand many upper hands vs one who only had two.

  60. crazy1946 says:

    There is not enough bandwidth to list all the errors that were made during this trial… The first was the defendant leaving the house to go to Target to purchase food with no money and no credit card in his possession. and it ended with the Seminole county Pros attorney failing to press charges on the night of the murder. Some one higher up in the government than Gov. Scoot called off the dogs on this one. After the charges were filed (reluctantly) the order came down to put up a good fight for appearances but to make sure the defendant walked out of the court room as a free man.. All this story now needs is an unknown shooter on a grassy knoll….. Who in a position of power pulled the strings to make this case go away? Perhaps some day we will know, until then we will analyze this over and over and over, never really resolving the issue……. Now it is yet to be seen if they will also cover for Shel-lie, any bets?
    Also yet to be seen is what will take place in the Dunn case, it does not look like he has anyone in high places to cover his backside, or he would not still be sitting in jail awaiting trial…. Perhaps in that case we will actually be able to learn how justice is supposed to function…… Only time will tell, and that time is rapidly headed our way……..

    • Trained Observer says:

      crazy, it’s up to us to make sure the issue never fades. Fogen needs to be watched for the rest of his miserable days. Let him swelter in his bullet-proof vest. And his entire family, including the lying Uncle Jorge, needs to feel as they’re being scrutinized as well.

      • crazy1946 says:

        While I agree that we need to keep the pressure on the Fogdoit, I don’t think it is good faith that we fail to ensure that other murderers fail to find justice served upon them! We have little time to waste until Shel-lie reaches a court room, should we not make our voices heard in her case? My gut has always said the Fogdoit did not act alone, he had help, and perhaps she is the key to the safe that holds the truth….

        Michael Dunn murdered Jordan Davis in cold blood, and attempted to murder three other children.. He was smarter than the Fogdoit, he has actually outlined and spoken a pretty good case for SYG. We need to make sure that does not take place, and the clock is ticking on that case as well. I won’t suggest we stop thinking about this case, but should we give up on trying to bring changes in the racially biased laws that have been forced upon the people of Florida and other states while we discuss the things that went wrong in this case that we have no control over? Do we continue to pressure the DOJ to file Hate charges against the Fogdoit? Of course we need to do that, but again there reaches a point where you need to start going forward in the fight for justice…. It is up to us to decide when that point is reached, let’s hope we don’t wait too late to act…..

    • groans says:

      There is not enough bandwidth to list all the errors that were made during this trial…

      AMEN to that!

  61. Tzar says:

    But the FDLE and/or BDLR never got the picture

    I agree with everything you said except for the above
    they got the picture
    I even presume they understood the consequence of not making this picture crystal clear for the jury (understanding the mind of the jury is their job after all)

    • Malisha says:

      I’m with you Tzar.
      They saw the picture.
      The picture was:

      Fogen murdered Trayvon Martin.
      The SPD covered it up.
      The FDLE then had to draw charges and actually present a certain amount of the evidence.

      In view of this picture, they had two choices. EITHER:
      1. Show what happened; or
      2. Make it into a befuddled mess so Fogen can skate and that way the SPD doesn’t look so bad because they can say, “See we KNEW we wouldn’t be able to draw charges against him; the jury found that! The whole case was political and the evidence just wasn’t there. We’re clean.”

    • willisnewton says:

      I disagree. Politically, prosecutors want convictions. I do agree they blew the case and were covering for the SPD’s missteps and mistakes. But they felt this was a strategy to follow – not to open a can of worms regarding what the SPD did wrong but instead to present a case where the authorities were all on one side and the defendant was all on his own. Sadly, they failed to do so. I feel they lacked a clear picture of where the two persons were and how they moved from clubhouse area to cut thru vicinity. This was a failure of deductive reasoning. GZ’s lies were confusing and they failed to examine them closely enough to see the pattern behind them.

      • Tzar says:

        I am gonna have to agree to disagree WN, from my vintage the prosecution did not want this conviction and I can think of several reasons why

        • willisnewton says:

          fair enough. I don’t know what their problem was, truthfully but I agree they did a poor job.

          They are not my sort of people, that’s for certain. White christian gun toting and child hating prosecutors from Florida who can’t find their case of their azz with both hands.

          Stil i feel the reason they called John Good as their witness could have been a sound strategy HAD they also bothered to do the easy work to destroy GZ’s credibility. It seems to me that they left credibility out of the entire equation on some levels, where in a self-defense case it should be everything.

          I feel they made it a case about who cried and not a case about who lied, or even who died.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            White christian gun toting and child hating prosecutors from Florida who can’t find their case of their azz with both hands.

            I think I climbed onto the wrong train. Those are not words that inspire intelligent conversation, sir.

          • crazy1946 says:


            “They are not my sort of people, that’s for certain. White christian gun toting and child hating prosecutors from Florida who can’t find their case of their azz with both hands.”

            IMO that is a pretty offensive description that you offer of the Prosecutors! Would you accept it well if a white man described you in a similar fashion? I have no doubt that you will come back with a retort as to how I am wrong, however your words speak quite well for them selves starting with the first sentence……..

          • cielo62 says:

            Crazy- alas, for Bernie and Corey, the description seems quite apt.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • groans says:

        @ willisnewton, re:

        I feel [the prosecution] lacked a clear picture of where the two persons were and how they moved from clubhouse area to cut thru vicinity. This was a failure of deductive reasoning. GZ’s lies were confusing and they failed to examine them closely enough to see the pattern behind them.

        I agree. For whatever reasons, they either (1) didn’t bother to analyze adequately, and/or (2) didn’t put the pieces together to make it easy for the jury to consider. And it’s inexcusable, be it due to incompetence or corruption.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Tsar — Agreed. A ton of politics played out here. Jurors were free to put it together for themselves, which at least three clearly didn’t want to, and the others rolled over quickly.

      Instead of importing a prosecution team from the east coast, Florida’s crooked governor should have sent the case to South Florida — victim territory. .Then all the racists in the cesspool of Sanford could was their hands of it, but at least we’d have sent Fogen off to where he belongs.

  62. willisnewton says:

    These errors pale in comparison to his failing to complete the investigation, or to ask basic questions of a witness to draw a picture for the jurors that presented a narrative about a murder and the lies told to cover it up.

    Not presented by the prosecution at trial:

    The fact that GZ never once offered information in any of his statements that the teen ran away from his car. He only spoke to the issue when prompted, and after telling every one of his accounts leaving out this activity. But for the NEN call, the SPD would never have known the teen ran.


    The idea that GZ claimed the teen doubled back and circled his car during the course of the NEN call recording and that this is an obvious impossibility was briefly touched upon but the idea that this was part of a deliberate fabrication to omit and obscure the car to pedestrian chase was not demonstrated to the jury.

    The idea that GZ could never have parked in the clubhouse parking lot, and is in fact not seen doing so on the clubhouse videos was not highlighted to the jury by any witness testimony or closing argument presentation.

    The lies are all tied together. They all relate to a car to pedestrian chase that is a SEPARATE and potentially chargeable offense of criminal stalking. But the FDLE and/or BDLR never got the picture, and so neither did the jury.

    • groans says:

      SO MUCH evidence left out and/or not highlighted! Unreal. Unbelievable.

      • willisnewton says:

        to me it’s not “so much” – it’s that such BASIC ideas were left out, just a couple of which would have once and forever destroyed the credibility of the defendant.

        Yes, sure pile it all on, but don’t leave out the basics!

        This was a story about a pursuit that led to a confrontation. Yet the pursuit was not presented from an investigative perspective, ever.

  63. bettykath says:

    Apart from Jeremy being a wimp for Jenna, why did he not testify? What’s his witness #. Did he actually get to make a report or did Jenna make his report for him?

    • groans says:

      He didn’t testify, because no one called him. 😉

      Why, I don’t know. But Jeremy did provide statements – they’re on AxioAmnesia. He was either Witness #11 or #20, whichever Jenna was not.

  64. bettykath says:

    Why did the state put John (not-so) Good on the stand to testify for the prosecution? Why not let the defense put him on and then go after his many versions of what he says he saw and his “rational thinking” that embellished his story?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The pros never tied their narrative together. All the witnesses’ stories could be viewed from either a pros POV or a defense POV. The prosecution didn’ t present their story clearly enough – and they needed to strongly to refute the defense, who’d been working their story in the media for months.

    • Malisha says:

      There should have been an immediate objection to his “rational thinking.” He was not an expert on anything; he was a material witness and he had no right to “rational think” what happened, only tell what he saw or heard. PERIOD.

      No license to embellish. His rational thinking is his own business but did not belong in court.

      • type1juve says:

        My “rational thinking” tells me that John Good is a damn liar and he conspired with Fogen to cover a murder. My hope is that the DOJ is successful in bringing charges and prosecuting not only Fogen but the whole sorry lot of sick mofo’s who conspired and lied to cover the murder of an unarmed teenager.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Type1 — Wouldn’t that be Christmas no matter what month of the year those charges came? We can dream!

        • pat deadder says:

          IMHO JN was for the defense.How many times did she say both sides were going to the media and that was not true.I don’t think we will ever know the corruption that went on because we can’t wrap our brains around it.I want to know if DOJ will have fogen’s sealed phone records,the clubhouse tapes,and will they interview the black guy who had to jog somewhere else because of fogen.I don’t think they need to waste time trying to figure out if he said punks or coons.There is so much more evidence he is a racist.I also think Serino would have come clean if the prosecution wanted him to, they didn’t.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Especially John Good’s explanation of why the voice was GZ. No background was presented to show he was capable of making that type of decision.

    • willisnewton says:

      I assume the prosecution put all the witnesses they did up front in an effort to paint them as “our side’s witnesses” whether they were friendly to the prosecution or not. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn’t. NOT calling him would highlight the fact that they felt his testimony was damning for them.

      His story is what it is. You can judge his credibility all you want but it’s the jury whose judgement counts. It’s too bad the prosecution didn’t just paint him as a waffler like you suggest. But I suspect they were pleased with his final version where he admits he saw no kitting and heard no head banging or heard no blows of any kind being landed.

      Had the prosecution also bothered to destroy GZ’s credibility as they certainly could have and should have, John Good may have been a great witness for them. If I were a juror who was convinced GZ had lied to police investigators about how he arrived on the scene I’d think everything he said was suspect. Sadly, the prosecution failed to attack GZ’s credibility where they had solid evidence to do so – by comparing his inconsistent and contradictory claims regarding his movements from clubhouse to cut thru area.

      • bettykath says:

        But the jury already had been tainted. They heard a lot about MMA blows. The fact that Good finally admitted he didn’t see them was lost on the jurors.

        From what I gathered, the prosecution couldn’t impeach its own witness. That’s why Good got away with it. The defense wouldn’t call him out. And the prosecution couldn’t. otoh, if he was put on by the defense, then the prosecution could have impeach his testimony.

  65. me says:

    Why the outright refusal and fear to humanize the victim. The murdered child should have been spoken for. Someone should have testified as to WHO he really WAS. His teachers, friends, family, ALL report he was an average American fun loving KID. I am still wanting to know more who the child was. Never in my life have I witnessed a murder trial where the victim wasn’t mourned. A streetwalker would have been given a better send off. I”m trying to recall a Forensic Files episode where this happened.

    I’m assuming his family requested that his character be off limits.

    • willisnewton says:

      It’s a legal thing. If the defense had brought in character witnesses to speak about GZ< then the door would be open to talk about these issues.

      They did not, although they pushed the envelope quite a bit.

      • me says:

        I’m not a lawyer but seems as if he had character witnesses.

        • Malisha says:

          Fogen had character witnesses and the prosecution could have put on every bit of the bad stuff about him after Kokopelli and Donnelly testified. They chose not to rebut a single thing. That’s on Bernie and he did it for all the wrong reasons; it is not possible that he did it for any excusable reason.

          • willisnewton says:

            The owner of the Kokopelli gym is not named that, and he did not testify to GZ’s character, only to his supposed lack of athleticism and fighting ability.

            Donnelly was asked about the identity of the voice(s) on the 911 call. He was not called as a character witness.

          • Malisha says:

            But Willis they all (Bertalan, Kokopelliface and others) did testify to the “fact” that Fogen was protective to the neighborhood, good and wonderful and non-confrontational. NON-CONFRONTATIONAL would bring in every single bad act they had to show — confrontations with high school teachers and kids, confrontations with ATF and with employees who served at his parties, with his landlord, with Blacks in the neighborhood, with AA youths, with ex-girlfriend, with cousin, with drivers he accused of misdeeds, with attendees at parties where he was a bouncer, EVERYTHING COULD HAVE COME IN! I thought the rebuttal was going to be a blood bath that would make his faked-up pictures of his little nosey-wosey look like what it was: NOTHING.

        • type1juve says:

          He sure did. One by one they marched up to the stand and lied for Fogen. By the time the trial was over I was looking for the halo over his head. The defense took control of the trial while JN enabled them. All while the prosecution sat there and DID NOTHING! May they all burn in hell for denying Trayvon and his family the justice they deserve!

          • lurker says:

            They saved they halo for after the trial. Turns out his ‘hiding’ place was right there in Sanford so he was handy to rescue a family whose SUV had overturned. And O’Mara was available to go on Piers Morgan and gloat about how it was ‘quintessential George.’

            I’m not big on extended conspiracy theories, but in this case so many lies have been told, I can only suppose that Z and friend were driving around listening to the police scanner and waiting for the right call to be able to show up and be a hero

      • Trained Observer says:

        It seems to me they did more than push the envelope with Donnelly, Osterman, the woman Fogen worked with, the professor, and others. I was pleased with opening and closing statements, but the sandwich filling was where the State failed to be as spicy and aggressive as it should have been on many, many points throughout trial.

        That doesn’t mean that I’m excusing the jurors for failing to see the big point: Fogen spotted, profiled, stalked, and deliberately put a hollow point into Trayvon Martin’s heart.

        Then he made no effort to call 911 or seek medical help for his victim.

        Then he pretended he didn’t know he was dead.


        I oppose gun violence for everyone, even Fogen. Yet I do believe Fogen will eventually get his.

        Crazy mentioned an order of fire ants and honey a couple of days ago. In addition, My neighbor points out that the Everglades National Park is over-run with Burmese pythons strong and long enough to take down gators and Key deer.

        • bettykath says:

          I’m satisfied that he’ll be living with the kind of prejudice that Black men suffer and in fear for his life.

          • Malisha says:

            I’m not satisfied with that.
            I guess I’m a mean old lady.
            Nothing other than conviction and punishment would EVER satisfy me after a nasty little pisser like Fogen killed an innocent child.

      • BillT says:

        the young female witness that had her home broken into was PURE 1000% character witness, see knew NOTHING about the night of the murder, her ONLY testimony was fawning about fogens character.

        • lurker says:

          Well that and the scary black men.

          BTW is there anyone else who runs upstairs to hide when someone knocks at the front door in broad daylight? The guys who broke in were knocking were checking to see if the house was empty. Better to let them know someone was there with cellphone in hand.

        • groans says:

          @ BillT – I agree completely. I also think others snuck in character evidence for CAC. That was clearly something that could have been countered in the State’s rebuttal case but, inexcusably, they obviously were not prepared to counter!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @me — what you are suggesting, to bring in character witnesses for trayvon would have been poor legal strategy. as soon as the prosecution ‘opens the door’ on character, it gives the defense the opportunity to present witnesses and evidence that they believed would show the exact opposite.

      • Malisha says:

        THey did not need to put on character witnesses for Trayvon Martin; they needed to put on prior bad acts of Fogen to show that he was confrontational and the DOOR WAS WIDE OPEN for that because there was defense testimony that he was NOT. Also, after Bertalan’s testimony they could have put on ANYTHING THEY HAD! No excuse. No excuse = corruption.

        • me says:

          Why do we punish murderers? Because supposedly as a culture we value life. When Fogen murdered a child he stole Trayvons chance to grow and experience the world and all it has to offer. If you believe in the afterlife then the child is at rest but if you don’t then death is finality. Fogen stole a child away from his family, friends, and loved ones. Trayvon was a human being and his life had value. All I am saying is that I thought it was standard for a loved one to testify as to the loss and covey to the jury the gravity of the crime and how many victims the killer left in his wake.

          The door had already been open. The jury pool had already been infected. O’Mara and his partners in the media spent a year lying on the victim. It wouldn’t hurt one bit to have a teacher or friend expand on the loss and the pain that the killer caused. I was HOPING that “DeDe” would do it.

          Let me also say this. IF Trayvon WAS everything FOX noise says he is I would STILL be advocating for justice for him. That night he was simply WALKING, and trying to evade his pursuer.

    • aussie says:

      If they’d said anything about Trayvon being a good kid, that would have opened the door for character “evidence”, in this case character assassination. All the rubbish about the marijuana, the screwdriver/burglary tool, the stolen jewellery nobody ever reported missing, etc etc would have all been open slather, and maybe they’d even try to sneak in the video of the two adults fighting over a bicycle..

      Not saying he was good was the only way to keep out all the demonising rubbish.

      This wasn’t TV, they do a lot of stuff on TV that isn’t quite like real life, especially court cases.

      • me says:

        “Forensic Files” is not a scripted drama. It’s a 30 minutes show that I used to watch on Court TV. Real cases are profiled.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          regardless of what shows you have seen on tv and how real or not they may be — aussie, willis and i (maybe more) have told you precisely why there were no character witnesses for trayvon. this is a legal blog, we have been here for many months studying things just like this, and we have no reason to give you bad info.

          if in fact, what you are asking for occurs in whatever show you watch, either it has no relevance to the case of ‘florida vs zimmerman’ or you are misunderstanding something.

          • me says:

            You are speaking with me as if I’m unable to comprehend. I will continue saying there is no reason why they could not have someone on the stand detailing how painful the loss was and what Trayvon meant to them. Someone could have relayed the gravity of the situation.

            I am one of the younger posters but I KNOW TV isn’t real. I wasn’t describing something from Law & Order. You keep saying the “bad” evidence about Trayvon could come on the defense end but obviously that jury already heard it and believed it.

            Again. I’m assuming Trayvon’s parents didn’t want to get into character. Maybe they had grown tired of their son being trashed in the media.

          • I will continue saying there is no reason why they could not have someone on the stand detailing how painful the loss was and what Trayvon meant to them.

            Lawyers refer to this type of testimony as Victim-impact evidence.

            It is not admissible during a trial because it is not relevant to determining whether the defendant is guilty.

            It is admissible at a sentencing hearing after a defendant has been found guilty.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            you clearly are not accepting what several people are trying to tell you. fred wrote the following article which describes the situation in reverse


            if you were to search even deeper into the articles, you will find for yourself exactly why no character evidence was presented. i am not going to argue with you, your age is irrelevant to me — but this is a legal blog in which a core of posters have spent well over a year truly learning and understanding the trial process in the real world. i would encourage you to do the same.

  66. bettykath says:

    Are both state and defense attorneys present for depositions? If so, why did Rachel’s deposition take so long? I suspect that West was as nasty during the deposition as he was during cross. Why did the state not protect her? Why did the state not recommend that she have her own attorney to protect her. From his summation, I suspect that Bernie considered Rachel a “throw-away”, not someone worthy of basic respect and protection.

    • Girlp says:

      Rachel had an attorney, his name is Roderick Vereen. Rachel told Al Sharpton that she knew Don and she knew he was trying to make her made, she knew he wanted her to behave like the sterotype of an African American teen and that she could not sleep the night before her first day of testimony….She also figured out that he was going to have her on the stand for a while she based it on the times West deposed her.

    • Malisha says:

      Rachel was not represented until it was too late. Bernie should have done 100 things he didn’t do with respect to Rachel. SHAME ON HIM! Of course, he DID consider Rachel a “throw-away.” He is no better, essentially, than many whose actions have been more blatant and less covert.

  67. LBTG says:

    The attorney’s are looking for information. They have to ask questions to get their information. If they neglect to ask a question, they don’t get that information.

    When Shiping Bao wrote out everything, and the defense was able to get hold of Bao’s notes, they got all the information they wanted and more. I don’t think the Judge should have allowed the defense to get those notes The defense’s request for notes was like asking the witness to do a data dump from their memory.

    Did the prosecution object to giving out Bao’s notes?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t understand why Bao brought notes to the stand. Should have been enough to review them before he got on. Does show, as Malisha said, that he was used to a different type of trial or hearing. He wasn’t prepared for a contentious murder trial.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        A lot of people head something with them under there arm at least when the got on the stand.Serino did. He was expecting
        questions that he would have to look up or maybe about those 3 charges he made. The Brady material?

      • pat deadder says:

        iMO Bao is an conceited idiot.

      • ay2z says:

        But notes should not be his reference, if those notes were not done at the time of the autopsy and decisions were changed long months afterwards and in prep for trial.

        Bao also ralked about his reasearch into his memory of the event, why he couldn’t remember.

        expect a good defense lawyer would have learned about the notes on the stand, by asking the right questions, about how he prepared for his testimony etc.

        Crash and burn, that was what Bao did, confirmed by the apology in closing about Bao, they said “don’t blame the state” if you don’t like witnesses such as Bao or Jeantel..

        In other words, don’t blame Trayvon, and that would be exactly what the jury could do, especially for having a friend with what one juror called poor education and lack of communications skills. Really. She showed her ignorance and bias and lack of ability to get by that, in evaluating what was happening with Rachel.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @LBTG — both the prosecution and the defense were entitled to see the notes that bao was reading from. fred discussed this at the time of trial. had he simply been reading his original report or lab notes as previously submitted into discovery/evidence, it would not have been an issue. any new documents he created for his testimony are subject to the same scrutiny.

    • groans says:

      @ LBTG, re:

      When Shiping Bao wrote out everything, and the defense was able to get hold of Bao’s notes, they got all the information they wanted and more. I don’t think the Judge should have allowed the defense to get those notes.

      That’s actually part of what witness preparation entails – i.e., telling witnesses what to bring and what NOT to bring to the stand when they testify. Because (last I knew) whatever they bring is fair game for all parties to see. The judge doesn’t have much say-so about it – it’s that elementary.

      That was a prime example of extremely poor witness prep right there.

  68. Wanna says:

    BdlR not only failed to prepare his witnesses for trial but he did not protect them from badgering from West and MOM. BdlR was the proverbial ‘potted palm’, with very few objections. This case was tried under the watchful eye of AC. AC was the potted palm-in-chief.

  69. I totally agree that lawyers must prepare their witnesses and it was obvious that the prosecution didn’t prepare Bao and Jeantel. Also, it was quite apparent that the defense was agonistic with Bao and Jeantel, possibly originating during depositions. It seemed that Bao was defensive and was not going to be caught off-guard again. I’d love to read the depo transcripts. I think they would be telling.

    • groans says:

      I agree. Regrettably, both Bao and Jeantel (two of the State’s most important witnesses) quickly came across as very defensive when cross-examined during trial. And in both cases it also quickly became apparent that they had felt “burned” by their deposition experiences and were hell-bent on not allowing that to happen again. IMO, this severely undercut their credibility at trial.

      That suggests to me that they were not adequately prepared for either their deposition or trial testimony. And since I saw for myself how poorly the State protected them during their trial testimony, I can’t help but assume they had also been poorly protected during their depositions.

      It’s important to note that there are not as many protections that a lawyer can provide for a witness during a deposition as there are during trial. Yet, IMO, the State UTTERLY failed to provide them adequate protection during trial using the tools available in that forum for doing so.

  70. Diana says:

    The prosecution dropped the ball.

  71. LSimon says:

    I’m not even a law student and I knew the prosecution should have prepared the witnesses and protected them from abuse. He also could have gotten Rachel an interpretor just like one of the other witnesses. I sadly came to the conclusion after much back and forth that this was a show case. It was done just to quiet the Black masses. They never intended to indict GMurderZ. They allowed their case to be gutted from the start.

  72. Sophia33 says:


    I said the exact same thing about the preparation of witnesses during the trial and folks got angry with me. You are right. I couldn’t believe that they didn’t prepare the witnesses better. Rachel’s attorney said that there was no prep.

    It was indeed an egregious error and it made me question their commitment during the trial.

    • Malisha says:

      I hope we can stop thinking about how much others disagreed with us while we were in that storm at sea. Think about what happens to people when they’re in the middle of a horrible experience: Does each person react with precisely and absolutely the perfect reaction? Has anybody trained each of us in how exactly to respond to blatant racism and hidden corruption, pumped up by fake and fraud and public bluster and distractions and accusations swirling around like shit in a blender? I think some people jumped at others because they were so demoralized and anxious about the way things were swirling down the drain into the sewer that they couldn’t tolerate hearing screams of “no no no!” as it happened.

      I am down on myself for not having been cynical enough early enough in the case. But I reminded myself of a case I worked where a colonel in the Army had molested four kids, and they faked up an IG investigation, and then we reported that whole fraud to the IG of the DOD, and while that was in progress, one of the activists kept calling me (about eight times a day, in fact, before there was Internet) and the conversation was, each time:

      “What if the DOD IG does what the DOA IG did?”

      The sound of that question, no matter how she put it, made me feel that I should be doing something to PREVENT the DODIG from being as false, fraudulent, and corrupt as the DOAIG had been. But what? I mean really, what?

      So those of us who began to feel that helplessness and hopelessness (exactly, I feel, the same KIND of feeling that Trayvon had when he saw the gun aimed at his chest and let out that terrified shriek) as BDLR threw the case were reacting in pain and screech to any discouraging word. We couldn’t believe our eyes and ears as the rug was pulled out from under us and as decency and law were assassinated before our very eyes. Remember how Jayne S cried? In a different way, that’s what we were doing. “How can BDLR betray our trust?”

      How indeed.

      These people are all in bed together. If they are not even disciplined for it (and the chances are HUGE that they will all walk just as smug and kingly as Fogen has walked) none of us who is not also a murderer will be able to do thing #1 about it.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I only brought up that people got angry with me because there were some pretty vicious things said and done to folks who saw this happening. It went beyond disagreement. It went to bullying.

        That said, I agree with you. We were betrayed. We need to demand more. The Martin’s are not in a position to say that they feel the prosecution screwed up. But we can. And we should. They let the public down.

        • bettykath says:

          Sophia, I stopped reading a lot of the comments b/c of the judgmental nonsense and attacking. I don’t recall your comments ever being out of line.

          • Sophia33 says:

            I remember you sticking up for me betty. 🙂

            Now we need to work on changing some laws.

      • groans says:

        @ Malisha, re:

        I am down on myself for not having been cynical enough early enough in the case.

        I hope now that you’ve said that, you’re as able to dismiss it and put it out of your mind as we are.

        For one thing, it wasn’t cynicism that raised red flags to some folks early in the case. It was just honest, objective disappointment / outrage over what folks were witnessing at the time they were witnessing it. And people with high hopes can vary greatly in terms of how much they’ll tolerate before their “high hope scales” begin to tip in response to what they’re witnessing.

        More importantly, though, it was YOU who ultimately made some sense of what we all were witnessing. YOU offered the theory that the prosecution placed a higher priority on protecting the local law enforcement and state attorneys than on convicting Trayvon’s killer of a crime. And that’s when things started making sense.

        I know my own high hopes scale started tipping as early as opening “statements,” and kept on tipping throughout the trial. But it was baffling to me what the heck was going on. And your theory made sense to me and was convincing.

        So don’t be down on yourself – you helped me, for one! 🙂

        • Malisha says:

          I’m glad I helped because understanding what is being done to us is always important. But the only reason I was able to do that was my history of 18 years of extreme activism (nobody paying my bills, always doing my work on my own nickel and supporting others to join in, no Internet, full-time and fanatical) and watching one cover-up after another. But in my field, when people asked WHY the agencies and courts (and cops and even hospitals and even university child study centers!!!!!!!) had covered up, I was always able to explain that our society did not want to admit that child sexual abuse was a rampant and ugly problem, so covering up was a mental and emotional “escape hatch” for the cover-up artists, whom I named “molester protection teams.” One of the doctors in the Public Health Service (I lectured for them for years, without honorarium, and willingly) gave me her take on it: “They can say nothing happened because there is no body in the morgue.”

          So when I got into the Trayvon Martin case, I believed they could not do the same kind of cover-up because there actually WAS a dead child’s body in the morgue!

          When the filthy corrupt cabal horribly began to reveal itself to me (only happened towards rebuttal, although it really should have begun quacking like a duck much earlier), I think I was paralyzed in a form of posttraumatic stress disorder. I was in denial because this time, with the body in the morgue, I was seeing the same cover-up we had always dealt with.

          In Iowa, child with a torn hymen — “no abuse”
          In New York, two children hospitalized with pelvic inflammatory disease — “no abuse”
          In California, four children all report sex with abuser so their right to “minor’s interview” is taken away — “no abuse”
          In Oklahoma, child is believed by court-appointed psychologist who informs judge but judge believes child must have enjoyed it so — “no abuse”
          In Florida, one judge after examining the evidence actually writes an opinion saying there was a reasonable conclusion that the child was abused so the appellate court should permit the entry of evidence but they refuse and say — “no abuse”

          On and on and on.

          Logically, this case should have BROKEN all those forms of official dishonesty. And exposed them. And the officials involved should have been disgraced. There was proof absolute that Fogen marked, profiled and chased down his victim and NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER (except for Fogen’s own testimony, which he did not give!) that Trayvon Martin had assaulted him (although even if he HAD, he would have been within his rights under the SYG law). And yet the cover-up was SACRED. The life of Trayvon Martin was not sacred. The cover-up was sacred.

          There is the criminality of the American government and every state government in America and every county government in every state of America. THERE is its criminality.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            We were “incredulous”, we could not believe what we were seeing at the very time we were seeing it being done. There just had to be another explanation and we found them time after time, the prosecution was going to get them, but later. Later never came! The close was appalling to say the least.

            We’ve see this kind of thing before in the courts, and yes Malisha, as you say it’s prevalent. But, one never expects to see it in a wide open high profile case, being watched by the world, at a very critical time in America’s history. This trial has ruined forever America’s day in the sun. The people of the world who used to love us before Bush took office, now see us as just another evil empire about to go the way of the others history has known.

            These fools should realize that you can only get away with so much, before there comes a break point, which should not be gone beyond. They went, needlessly, over the line once again, but this time on a matter so insignificant globally, and yet with such high global interest, they failed to show the world that they are anything more than petty.

            Nothing further need be done because the people will handle it from here, whether they want to or not, because loss of confidence is and always will be “the quiet revolution”. The one that brings with it sweeping changes without a shot being fired, by the slow but unstoppable decline.

    • groans says:

      @ Sophia – Yes, indeed, I recall the anger towards you (as well as some against me). There was a noticeable amount of what I’d call “magical thinking” going on here during the trial – often based on misconceptions of what the prosecution could pull out of its sleeve at some later point in the trial process.

      Prosecution errors and failures became apparent very early on, and never really improved. I can’t tell you how many times I was yelling “OBJECTION!” here, but only rarely heard it from the prosecution. It was shockingly disappointing (at least for a while).

      • Malisha says:

        Groans, I know what you mean. I convinced myself that the lack of objection was a strategic decision, to let each witness answer all the questions so that the prosecution would look like IT wasn’t hiding anything, and I fully expected to see a rebuttal in which practically every witness was brought back up onto the stand to deal with exactly what could be revealed about the questions that should have been objected to. I think I could have designed rebuttal questions that would have made every single “point” the defense was making crumble before the jury’s eyes (those hidden pairs of eyes!) during rebuttal. The fact that BDLR gave up rebuttal was, to me, a sure sign of BDLR’s actual perfidy and his dishonesty. He stole defeat out of the jaws of victory.

  73. Elijah says:

    From the Miami Herald today. Witness #9. More for the DOJ to consider and more to shape public opinion.

  74. Malisha says:

    I don’t think BDLR could have made such gross errors if he really was trying to win. EVEN protecting the SPD as he went along, he could have done a HALFway decent job of the prosecution, and he did not. I thought he was going to spectacularly redeem himself in the rebuttal. It’s a disgrace, how poorly he did. I wish I could arrange to picket that awards ceremony and, as I have said, I really wonder who the defendants were in all those trials where he kicked ass. There were probably no real rich white asses that felt his boot.

    • degraveegmailcom says:

      This from memory.When Serino was asked by BDLR why he believed it was F. screaming on the tape,Serino said he got that from Officer Smith.Then how did Smith know BDLR asked him.
      Smith had it from the defendant
      Serino answered.
      Thank you and no more questions your honour!
      It was so fast!

      • Malisha says:

        Think of it: Serino then TELLS a witness something that he “learned” from a cop who was NOT THERE at the time (Smith says he arrived AFTER the shot) and the cop learned it from the person who just SHOT SOMEONE (obviously had incentive to lie) and Serino informs a witness as if he’s reciting a FACT.

        This, someone wants to believe, is the conduct of a cop who should not be called a “dirty cop”? HOW SO?

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Malisha, I have to say that, I agree with everything that you’ve said here. I “HAVE NEVER” seen a trial prosecuted in the manner which this one was. I mean, it was obvious as to what was going on from the very beginning.

      I had been reading here, where some people were complaining about what the prosecution was and wasn’t doing in the first few days of the trial. I had reservations about it myself but, I just never said anything on here because, I thought it would get better but it only got worse. IMO, it was fixed to where Fogen was to never be convicted for his crime and, the state was complicit in him being found not guilty.

      My heart really hurts for Trayvon and his family because, to those involved in this trial, he was nothing but just another deceased black kid, who would never come of age in this sin sick country, because of his skin color. I mean, how does a person with a sane mind believe, all of the lies told by this murderer to the point of finding him not guilty for murdering a child? these people DON’T believe his lies, their only interest was just to find him not guilty and, make it possible for him to do it again.

      For those in the state of Ohio offering to take up a donation in order for him to buy another gun, this is nothing but a slap in the face to this deceased kid and his family, as well as that northern state/city showing their ignorance and racism.

      Some of you might get mad at me for what I’m about to say but, I’m going to say it anyway. we live in a pretty racist and sick country, a place where saying it’s “THE LAND OF THE FREE, AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE.” nothing could be further from the TRUTH. as I told you guys last week, the AA teen who rescued the little five year old girl in Lancaster, Pa, is now being maligned by the racist of this country on YouTube. only in the U.S.A. will you find this kind of thing, especially since he saved a white child.

  75. Two sides to a story says:

    I don’t see why Bernie would have to prepare an experienced medical examiner. Although it certainly wouldn’t hurt to review with ALL witnesses the proper procedures for answering questions. Rachel definitely needed some help, although she did pretty damn well on her own.

    I think the universe has bigger plans for Trayvon than simply finding Fogen guilty, which probably wouldn’t bring as much stuff into the public eye as finding the killer not guilty. I’m not a God believer, but I do think that energy is moved in mysterious ways.

    Sometimes mystery and karma trump logic.

    • Malisha says:

      Elementary: EVERY lawyer has to carefully prepare EVERY witness. Bao could have testified in trials before where nobody cared about the defendant so the cross examination wasn’t even noticeable. Most PD’s at the state level will not even go deeply INTO the actual autopsy report. He might have testified before in 100 trials of “nobodies” who didn’t even have a chance to meet with their lawyers for more than an hour before they were thrown to the wolves.

      I do know that BDLR failed to prepare Rachel J and furthermore that he asked her irrelevant and stupid questions in his investigation phase, exposing her to all kinds of attacks from O’Mara and West that never needed to happen. Why the HELL would he ask her about the funeral? It was not her responsibility to answer to him or anyone else about the funeral; he dissed her before anybody else did; also he did not understand her properly and he didn’t spend quality time with her either. SHAME SHAME SHAME.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think Bernie did need to question her about the funeral before the defense got to her to defuse the lies and show why these were not as remarkable as the defense wanted to make them out to be.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @twosides — that was my take on the issue. better to get it out front and in the open in the most positive light than to let west have his way with it.

          • mrsdoubtfire says:

            Yep Rachel should have been better prepared but she deserved a more zealous re-cross by BDLR. And they shouldn’t have apologized for her ….calling her a “human being”. was extremely patronizing. The girl is anything but dumb. They should have lauded her for her naturalness, her consistency her total lack of agenda. She wasnt out to impress anyone or do an infomercial like Root or the gym owner..

          • aussie says:

            Bernie would have seen the juror’s faces when Rachel was on the stand. If they looked like they thought she wasn’t much chop, it’s better to say so but ask them to overlook that. “She doesn’t speak well etc etc but she stuck to her evidence unshakably, she was telling the truth”. I was okay with that bit.

            The lies about her age and the wake (not the funeral, apparently she did attend that) were publicly canvassed issues for months. They should have pulled the rug from under West’s feet by getting her to clarify that in her evidence in chief.

        • Malisha says:

          I meant he should not have questioned her about the funeral in that original conversation when he interviewed her on the phone. None of his damned business. Then he created a problem he had to try to solve but couldn’t because of the feeding frenzy of “key witness is a liar” that the newspapers threw all over like fertilizer in a corn field.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        She did have atty to prep her night before

  76. Beverly says:

    Interesting comments. I wonder what the State team thinks about their own performance, what went wrong, etc. I have no objectivity b/c I thought Om was so pretentious and I will never forget W’s treatment of Rachel. Ive said before that I had some tolerance for Bernie b/c Ive had trouble myself with the narrative/chronology of the event. I was sort of late to hearing the details. Maybe I would have gotten it better if he had laid it out better; maybe since there are holes in the story it comes out vague. Just don’t know, and we don’t know how receptive the jurors were.

    • bettykath says:

      Beverly, if you had trouble “getting” it, so did the jurors. Bernie didn’t do a good job.

      • Malisha says:

        You know, in custody battles there is a presumption that anybody can bring up ANYTHING bad or even moderately imperfect about a mother and they will score points, and that is a weapon, whereas if you look at the big picture that involves the best interests of the child, you will come up with a concept of a “good enough” mother and if that mother has been raising that child and is “good enough,” it is NOT in the child’s best interests to be ripped away from that good enough mother.

        I have been looking at the prosecution’s performance that way.

        I have concluded that although fault could be found with ANY prosecution that resulted in an acquittal, the BIG PROBLEM with this prosecution that just cannot and should not be ignored was that it was NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

        Not just the mountain of gross errors and bad judgment calls made by the prosecution, but the entire structure of what they did, was grossly grossly GROSSLY inadequate. An abysmal failure. I wasn’t letting myself believe it, even as I was watching it unfold, horribly, before me. I was like a person with a tumor who doesn’t want to pay attention to how big it is getting.

        Of course, I could do nothing other than admit how bad it was getting. I found that I couldn’t — I kept saying, “He will pull the irons out of the fire beautifully and spectacularly in the rebuttal.” I was lying to myself.

        BDLR was lying too.

        • Malisha says:

          Corey too.
          Corey PRAYED with Trayvon’s parents.
          John Guy PRAYED for the truth to come out.
          They were not supposed to be our priests.
          They were not supposed to PRAY; they were supposed to work.

    • LBTG says:

      I noticed that BDLR would take the argument step-by-step until ??? and not state the conclusion. It’s like a geometry proof without the THEREFORE “statement to be proved”.
      1. The figure is a triangle
      2. The figure has a right angle.

      And he moved on without saying “THEREFORE the figure is a right triangle”. BDLR left the jury to draw their own conclusions and the defense was only too happy to draw the defense’s conclusion.

  77. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — your observations are valid. i will point out though that Dr. Bao testified that he has previously testified in over 100 trials. one would assume that he knew the score on that front. the dude was a walking freak show without a tent and i am not referring to his chinese national status, only his unorthodox behavior in court and failure to let the prosecution that his ‘opinions’ had hanged post deposition. he was a nightmare witness and i question if any amount of preparation would have changed that.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t see why he added his new opinions – really, it just put Trayvon more on trial than ever.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        well — i would cut some slack on that front — a scientist *should* be willing to change an opinion in light of new information or they are not doing their job.

        where i would fault him is in his failure to communicate such when he clearly had met with BDLR after changing his opinion.

        • Girlp says:

          Dr. Bao needed to explain the conciousness does not mean the victim is able to move or talk, that he could have felt pain. However we know he most likely did not live an entire minute.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i freely declare that dr. bao is a disaster of a witness, things he said, things left unsaid and his court demeanor.

            considering the makeup of the jury, one would have to wonder if they even gave his testimony any credence due to his foreign national status. it would seem to be ‘the way they roll’.

          • Trained Observer says:

            In retrospect, my guess is that whatever Dr. Bao said made no difference to jurors who were either Fogensupporters or several bricks short of standing their own ground after the first vote.

            Yet, it’s so pathetically true that witnesses were way under prepared by the State for the slimeball tactics mounted by the defense.

            Also, it’s basic 101 to check with wits before trial to find out “what’s new” and if anything has transpired that would impact depo testimony.

        • bettykath says:

          The problem was his view that he is an independent agent and owing nothing to anyone, including the prosecutor. I think his relationship with those working with him on an autopsy needs to be looked at. As the one whose signature is on the report and the one doing the testifying, he is the one responsible for what all team members do. He should be supervising those on his team and not just assuming that they all know how to do their jobs. Was it one of his team members who didn’t bag Trayvon’s hands? Was it one of his team members who put a damp jacket in a plastic bag? (first in a paper bag and then the paper bag into a plastic bag.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            bettykath states

            The problem was his view that he is an independent agent and owing nothing to anyone, including the prosecutor.

            this is a true statement though, it is how the ME function exists within our framework. it is not a ‘problem’ but a statement of fact.

            there are plenty of other things that can be criticized, you brought up some of them.

          • Girlp says:

            I hope there is someone looking at it, how evidence is collected is critical. Though it is a silly that West basically indicated that Georges DNA was contaminated, if that’s the case why wasn’t Trayvons? Also, he knew he was testifying for the prosecution give them a headsup. I wonder what kind of training is required for his assistants and his techs?

          • bettykath says:

            I appreciate that the me is independent but is it ok to blind side the attorneys?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @bettykath — no, i don’t think his new revelations were presented properly. i have been clear on that throughout the trial and our rehashing of it. i think i stated something similar in one of the first 3 comments on this thread. bao was a disaster of a witness.

        • gblock says:

          In the academic world, staying up to date with new information in a field, and updating your own presentations accordingly, is considered the preferred behavior. It bothered me that for his efforts in this area, Dr. Bao was attacked in the media as not being a credible witness.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            understood, groans. if bao did not change opinions when presented with new information, he would be a bad scientist, indeed. rather, he did change his opinions and neglected to inform anyone until the day of his testimony which makes him a bad ME expert for testimony purposes.

  78. Rachael says:

    You could probably spend the rest of your life thinking and finding more indefensible errors and still find more and more and more

    • Rachael says:

      I mean its like there’s no end to them if you think about it.

    • cielo62 says:

      In the end, though, Bernie put on a good show. I hope he rots for it.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The “trial” was an obvious sham! So, in effect there was no trial in reality. Only in a highly abstract technical sense was there any thing resembling a trial at all, certainly not a trial that fulfills any Constitutional requirements. The law does not say that sham trials fulfill the requirement to hold trials. Only public acceptance does that.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: