Florida’s homicide statutes are a mess

Thursday, July 18, 2013

Good morning:

Florida’s homicide statutes are a mess and the legislature needs to fix them. Fortunately, a model exists for them to follow. Produced by the American Law Institute, it’s called the Model Penal Code.

The American Law Institute is a non-profit independent organization composed of prominent judges, lawyers and legal scholars who comprehensively developed and redesigned criminal statutes to simplify and unify existing criminal codes so that everyone would be on the same page, so to speak, operating with a uniform set of understandable concepts and statutes. The Model Penal Code was published in 1962 and updated in 1985.

A crime consists of a prohibited act (actus reus) committed with a particular mental state (mens rea). The Model Penal Code established four mental states.

Here’s Wiki:

One of the major innovations of the MPC is its use of standardized mens rea terms (criminal mind, or in MPC terms, culpability) to determine levels of mental states, just as homicide is considered more severe if done intentionally rather than accidentally. These terms are (in descending order) “purposely”, “knowingly,” “recklessly”, and “negligently”, with a fifth state of “strict liability”, which is highly disfavored. Each material element of every crime has an associated culpability state that the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Purposely. If the element involves the nature of the conduct or the result thereof, it is his conscious object to engage in that conduct or cause the result. If the element involves attendant circumstances, he is aware of the circumstances or believes or hopes that they exist.

Knowingly. If the element involves the nature of the conduct or the attendant circumstances, he is aware that his conduct is of that nature or that the circumstances exist. If the element involves a result, he is practically certain that the result will occur. Further, if the element involves knowledge of the existence of a particular fact, it is satisfied if he is aware of a high probability of the existence of that fact, unless he actually believes that it does not exist.
Recklessly. A person consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element exists or will result, such that its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe.
Negligently. A person should be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the element exists or will result, such that the failure to perceive it involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe.

If an offense requires a specific kind of culpability, then any more severe culpability will suffice. Thus if an offense is defined in the form, “It is illegal to knowingly do X,” then it is illegal to do X knowingly or purposely (a more severe state), but not to do so recklessly or negligently (the two less severe states). Strict liability means that it is illegal to do something, regardless of one’s mental state. If a statute provides only a single kind of culpability for a crime, that kind of culpability is assumed to apply to all elements. If no culpability is stated by statute, a minimum of recklessness is assumed to be required. The MPC declines to use the common terms “intentional” or “willful” in its specification of crimes, in part because of the complex interpretive history of these terms. However, it defines that any (non-MPC) statute in the jurisdiction’s criminal code that uses the term “intentionally” shall mean “purposely,” and any use of “willfully” shall mean “with knowledge.” If a law makes an actor absolutely liable for an offense, MPC sections 2.05 and 1.04 state that the actor can only be guilty of what the MPC calls violations (essentially meaning civil infractions), which only carry fines or other monetary penalties, and no jail time.

The actus reus for homicide is to cause the death of another person.

In Washington State where I practiced law for 30 years, the legislature defined four degrees of homicide, according to the mens rea:

(1) Murder in the First Degree: premeditation;

(2) Murder in the Second Degree: intentional;

(3) Manslaughter in the First Degree: reckless; and

(4) Manslaughter in the Second Degree: gross negligence.

The difference between premeditated and intentional murder is a reflection on intent to kill and a decision to go ahead and kill.

Recklessness is best exemplified by the game Russian Roulette. It is state of mind in which the actor is aware of a substantial risk of harm to another person if he commits a particular act, but he goes ahead and does it anyway.

Criminal negligence is a failure to be aware of a substantial risk of harm to another person where that failure constitutes a gross deviation from the standard to exercise due care to avoid injuring or killing other people.

Each crime is a lesser included offense of the more serious degrees of homicide. Therefore, Murder in the Second Degree is a lesser included offense of Murder in the First Degree and Manslaughter in the First Degree and Manslaughter in the Second Degree are lesser included offenses of Murder in the Second Degree.

Murder in the Second Degree in Florida does not require proof of intent to kill and it is easy to confuse with Aggravated Manslaughter because the mens rea for both is recklessness. That is, evincing a depraved mind is defined as acting with extreme or reckless indifference that a particular act will cause the death of another. That’s recklessness and Aggravated Manslaughter is defined as reckless homicide.

Intent creeps into the Florida instruction on Murder in the Second Degree requiring proof that the defendant intended to commit the act that caused the death of another, as opposed to proof that the defendant intended to kill the victim. See Haygood v. State, No. SC11-294 (February 14, 2013)

The mental state for Manslaughter in Florida is defined as “culpable” or gross negligence, which is the same as Manslaughter in the Second Degree in Washington State.

Given the evidence introduced at trial and using the Washington statutes as an example, I would have instructed on Murder in the Second Degree (intentional murder), Manslaughter in the First Degree (reckless homicide), and Manslaughter in the Second Degree (criminally negligent homicide).


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305 Responses to Florida’s homicide statutes are a mess

  1. aussie says:

    What has never been explained in simple words, to any jury and most commenters, is that “fear for my life” is NOT ENOUGH.

    1)The fear must be caused by the person you’re shooting (not paranoia etc)

    2) what you are seeing as “cause” must be such that any other reasonable person would also see it as a good reason to fear (ie not racism, paranoia, phobia etc)

    If you think black kids are liable to shoot at you for telling them to turn down the music, then DON”T TELL THEM. Simple as that.

    Dunn turned his back on what he thought was a gun — but didn’t get shot. He went to his vehicle and got out the gun he used to shoot with . How the hell can you defend yourself against your own paranoid hallucinations, anyway?

    He should have DRIVEN AWAY.

    SYG laws say you don’t HAVE to try retreating. It does not say it is FORBIDDEN to retreat.

    • Malisha says:

      Don’t believe those thugs when they say they killed because they were scared. They were NOT scared at all. They killed because they COULD.

  2. Malisha says:

    I thought for sure Ed Primeau would be a rebuttal witness demonstratig that Trayvon shouted, “I’m begging you” and “I don’t KNOW’em” and “go way go way” or “no way no way” on that tape. I was so sure of it I didn’t even get upset about the obvious error of ruling out an accepted method of construing what was said on tape. Silly stupid me. Clever resplendent BDLR.

  3. crazy1946 says:

    Does anyone know for sure who the prosecutor will be in the SheLie Z. case? Any bets as to the verdict?

    • Kimmi says:

      I heard John Guy is the prosecutor

    • Woow! says:

      Seminole County no jury will find her guilty.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Woow!, I wish that there could be an argument made to disagree with your thoughts, however you are probably right! It is not just Seminole County that has that problem, it is state wide! After looking into the Dunn case, and reading the jury instructions provided by Judge Nelson in the Trayvon Martin case, and listening to his statement to the police, where he says over and over he “Feared For His Life”, conviction is questionable…
        Now bear in mind, I base that comment only on the original statements given by Dunn, and not on any additional evidence provided by the state. I can only hope that a better case is presented by the state than that which was provided in the TM case….. I can easily see another Stand Your Ground Murderer set loose upon the youth of our communities…. Will this carnage ever stop? Will the people of Florida ever rise up and say enough to these people that force laws into existence that favor one race over another?

        • Malisha says:

          If the people of Florida DO rise up, it will be to declare the 13th Amendment null and void, and while they’re at it, slash the first amendment (prosecutor not allowed to utter the word “racial”), fourth amendment (Trayvon Martin’s school records open season), fifth amendment (OK to convict Trayvon Martin of his own murder post-mortem), sixth amendment (not OK for Crump to represent people FDLE regards as inferior), eighth amendment (OK to kill a kid for having smoked weed at some point in the past, or for having inhaled it at some point), ninth amendment (not OK to walk while Black, especially with skittles and iced tea), and 14th amendment (equal protection). ONLY second (guns!) and 11th amendment (immunity for officials who can do any corrupt and illegal act they choose) survive in Florida.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Malisha, But has it reached the point where people are no longer able to give their own souls excuses as to why they stand by and allow injustice to continue? At some point I predict that people of all races will come together as a group to demand these problems are addressed and a solution is found. I endeavor to find positive in all things, but this outrageous act of racial contempt has even stirred negative thought in my mind….. At some point (soon) if this nation is to survive we as a people will be forced to stand up to the powers in control and demand change. A nation that is being divided by racial and or economic division will/can not continue to stand and will fall as so many great empires have in the past! It is we the people and not as some seem to think “we the white people”, who hold the future of this nation in our collective hands!

  4. ada4750 says:

    About Rachel and Mr. Don

    I will try to make myself the clearest as possible and i hope i won’t offend anybody. English is not my first language. When West cross interrogated Rachel i was kind of surprised by two things. First she saluted him as Mr Don. Second, she sounded like she was holding something against him because he was supposed to do a deposition some Friday and he cancelled it. Her eyes and the way she said it looked as if she was really disappointed. It struck me. Why would she be upset to not meet the “enemy” guy.

    I suspected West had emotionally manipulated her. I backed up and thought is was my imagination and my great fatigue that day. But she said to Sharpton that West contacted numerous times last fall. Was it person to person or telephone contact? I don’t know. She keeps calling him Don. Ex, Don is Don!! Does it sound very familiar or not? So my doubts are coming back. Did West emotionally manipulate Rachel?

    • KateW says:

      Youtube has an interview she did with MSNBC Al Sharpton. I think she explains why.

      • believeinkarma says:

        She had an 8-9 deposition with west west before before .trial. The deposition was the only one video taped. Rachel was the biggest threat to the defense case. They had been harassing her for months.

    • Girlp says:

      In her interveiws on HLN and NBC she explains how she was treated she wasn’t feeling disappointed but attacked.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Ada — Had a discussion about this very thing with friends yesterday. Yes, we all believed the scumbucket “Mr. Don” manipulated her. And we feel the State was remiss in not better preparing her for sliminess in store during both the deposition and the trial. I , personally, admire Rachel. I envy her multi-language abilities, and I know she could teach me a lot about using an iPhone. So what if she can’t read cursive. I can’t speak two of her three languages.

      So again, yes. I believe you are correct in suspecting emotional manipulation.

  5. Prof Leatherman,

    From another forum…

    Poster A:

    Here’s the thing… Having worked several “they’re following me” kinds of calls… People always freak out over these in a big, big way. It’s bad enough when it’s people in cars, and in person even very docile people become inclined towards violence because following someone like that prevents them from going home. So I’d say it’s beyond a bad call.

    Also, he got close enough to be within a range where physical violence could be easily applied, so that’s more than a mistake, again that’s dangeously negligent behavior. Now, why would he be getting that close? Well, my gut says he’s going to try to initiate a stop. Normal citizens don’t have the right to stop and interrogate people on the street. Now, they don’t explicitly not have the right, but this is a really dangerous position you put yourself and depending on how you carry yourself, you could very well find yourself in that area of denial of civil liberties/unlawful arrest/abduction.

    Now, with all the talk of possibly charging Zimmerman federally with civil liberties violations that I’ve heard, if he does wind up convicted (which I think he would be should he be charged), does that compel the state to then try him under capital murder charges? It could be that he’s really screwed the pooch by using self defense on that second degree charge by leaving himself open to capital charge because of the level of public outrage when just pleading guilty to a manslaughter charge with 2 years, 2 suspended, 5 years probation and a felony charge which prevents him from owning, buying or posessing weapons would have, infact, made most people accepting of the outcome.

    Poster B:

    must admit I see his behavior as reckless, dangerous, negligent in the extreme. I would agree it went beyond “some bad calls”.

    I find very seductive the post someone made upthread here about a case being made against Zimmerman for felony abduction of a child (a child is a person under the age of 18) leading to capital murder and warranting the death penalty. ( I actually copied the post and showed it to a New York City area professor who is using the Trayvon Martin case as part of a sociology of violence class, who was very impressed with its logic).

    I have wondered if a civil rights attorney were to prove that Stand Your Ground is in violation of the state constitution, and took power from the state unnecessarily, would it then be the case that the State of Florida violated Trayvon Martin’s rights by allowing him as a minor to be accosted and killed by an adult under stand your ground. Could his parents sue the state of Florida? And could he be retired under these new charges at the state or federal level.

    I do not wish Mr. Zimmerman ill and I certainly do not hate him; notwithstanding I believe he committed a very, very serious crime and it does not sit right that he has gotten away with it. The public outrage is enormous, and yes, he has left himself open to felony murder one charges. I think someone will follow through on it; I do not believe his ordeal has ended. I would also say that it ought to be the state which charges him.

    ​But how feasible is all of this?

    And is this a ray of hope (at least at the federal level): http://www.politicususa.com/2013/07/…zimmerman.html

    And yes, I would say DROP the racism: What should be stressed is an adult violating the privacy of a minor in an outrageously reckless manner, leading to violent death.

  6. Leelee says:

    Found this interesting:

    Did The Press Have A Mole On The Zimmerman Jury? | Alan Colmes’ Liberaland http://www.alan.com/2013/07/18/did-the-press-have-a-mole-on-the-zimmerman-jury/

    How did he know it was a 5-1 hold out?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i have yet to believe one word out of taaffe’s mouth and i’m not about to start now.

      your mileage may vary

  7. believeinkarma says:

    I am tired of hearing white floriduhians saying trial wasn’t about race. They think if they say it no one will question them and we don’t understand their racist code words.

    Well, it is about race and the country saw it. And their code is not very good ala Peter pan, shaggy

  8. jodiwankanobi says:

    i just posted this on another thread…best Oprah episode i ever saw….this link is just a summary of it but the whole show was so eye opening. It is an experiment on race, and it was brilliant.


  9. KateW says:

    I did not like that OMara comment and tone at the press conference post verdict. He basically said *neck rollI* don’t even think about coming after my client with a civil suit etc etc. I felt like…the audacity! He wanted to challenge the public, the youth to try and come after his client so we obliged and people have been urging the DOJ to get involved. The Martin’s have yet to consider a civil suit, but it is best they keep that on the hush. They need not give Skeletor any more ammo or heads up.

    I also find it quite comical that he thought people would just go away. Sometimes they do, but you never know what barrel of apples you are going to get.

    • bettykath says:

      I think the Martins are waiting for the feds to figure out what they’re doing.

    • Woow! says:

      MOM and W would loose terrible in a federal court. No federal judge would put up with their antics.

      I am surprised JN. That was really odd to me.

      • KateW says:

        If that is her jurisdiction, perhaps she was playing for the home team. Lets not act as if judges are not biased. They shouldnt be but they can be. Maybe she was cheering for the home team because someone had said she had a smile on her face reading the verdict. I didn’t see it because after hearing not guilty I was done. I took to social media to vent.

        • Woow! says:

          She had a big grin on her face and seem really happy when telling CAC he had no more business with the Court.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        believe it or not, west left his job as a federal public defense lawyer to come help out his buddy o’mara. go figure. :/

    • Two sides to a story says:

      OM got a little big for his britches at that moment. I bet if DOJ finds anything they want to act on that they can bring him down a few notches too.

  10. Puck says:

    If there were a federal civil rights trial, and if the FBI could analyze and clean up the audio, “fucking coons” (finally, we’ll be shown what he really said) as GZ is chasing after Trayvon would be a nice piece of evidence.

    • KateW says:

      Puck that would be AMAZING!! And I bet, they have that technology but they won’t tell us. We have Star Wars projects up and running where they have lasers that can shoot missiles out of the sky, so they say. We can send a man into space. If they can clean that audio tape up it may be the additional proof they need. Because to me it sounds like an oo sound. But check this out, if you tell someone you heard “punks” that is what you will hear. Let me be more clear. Check out this video. It’s funny but you hear the words that are written because someone suggested to you that is what is sounds like.

    • KateW says:

      Had the cops been thorough with him they may have gotten the word out of him. If they suggested to him that the word was punks then naturally he would say that is what the word was in order not to sound like a bigot.

      A good way to ask is “Why would you use that word on the 911 call?” He says what word and the tape is played for him and allow him to tell you what the word was. SMH SPD displayed real shoddy detective work.

      • Puck says:

        I have heard the NEN call a billion times, as have you, but I have never once heard punks, goons, or cold, all of which have been suggested. I always hear coons — every single time.

        • KateW says:

          I wonder then do they have the technology to clean it up. How lucky for him the wind was blowing that day.

    • Malisha says:

      Nakasone is FBI. The FBI does not want to hear “coons” on that tape. IF they clean it up perfectly, they will say, “Oh NOW we can hear ‘punks’ very clearly. OK, he’s not a racist.”

      What is this about? He said “punks” so he’s not a racist? How about the word “suspect” in his written statement. Why was the person he cursed and chased and killed a “suspect”? Why did he at one point think he heard “homie” and at another point, shortly thereafter, when challenged, be unsure he heard the word “homie”? Why would he even SAY the word “homie” if he had not heard it from the “suspect’s” lips?

      It does not take a rocket scientist to analyze all of Fogen’s post-killing statements and come out with the conclusion that it was a hate crime. In fact, oh, I have an idea.

      • Puck says:

        Nakasone testified that there wasn’t enough data to identify either of the voices on the 911 call. That’s different than establishing what word was said — whonoze posted a video showing one way it can be established GZ said ‘coons,’ and the FBI could do the same. While I agree with you that they might still want to hear punks, under the aegis of a genuine investigation, it’s quite possible they won’t tiptoe around ‘coons’ any longer.

        Whether or not anything comes from a DOJ investigation, if they were to charge, try, and convict GZ on civil rights and/or hate crime charges, it would be a message to other racist gun nut creepy-ass cracker Zidiots itching to bag themselves a n—-r that they might be able to get away with murder at the state level, but that the feds will be waiting in the wings and can still crush you. It’s fully possible that behind closed doors, Obama told Holder to get the motherfucker so as to make an example of him.

      • Puck says:

        Basically what I’m saying is that if they can demonstrate it was ‘coons,’ that would be yet another indication it was a hate crime. There’s also the matter of the sealed emails and texts that were apparently so prejudicial to GZ; I was greatly disappointed that they didn’t come out at trial, but then, if these pointed towards a civil rights or hate crime, that would be beyond the scope of a M2 trial in which the judge ruled race couldn’t be included. Someone here suggested that the contents of these communications were deliberately not used in trial so as to keep them as ‘fresh’ evidence for a federal investigation.

        What ideas do you have about the post-killing statements? There’s ‘suspect,’ of course, but were you referring to the texts and emails or something else? I’m curious. I also think pre-killing texts might reveal quite a bit.

        • Malisha says:

          Prosecution and Defense jointly hid the content of Fogen’s and his family’s and Tim Smith’s and Wagner’s and John Good’s e-mail traffic from us. And text traffic. And a good deal more. THEY HID WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE INCENDIARY.

          What’s “incendiary”? Admitting that they let a white guy go hunting for a Black kid, with a loaded gun, and let him take his trophy, and let him make up a pile of transparent lies to cover his murderous racist act, and let him create a false picture so that six weak and/or timid white jurors could take part in the cover-up and make it all go away. Anonymously. That’s incendiary.

          Mark Furhman, believe me, did not say anything more racist than what was contained in Fogen’s texts and/or e-mails. BET ON IT.

  11. Malisha says:

    I’m thinking that if you stop sending jury notices to village idiots in Florida, you can’t send jury notices.

    • disappointed says:

      🙂 I think you may be right.

    • bettykath says:

      Malisha, they can’t all be village idiots. There are Floridians on this blog. I know a few – an idiot or two but not all. Trayvon, Rachel, Tracy, Sybrina. Let’s get a smaller brush, not one quite so wide.

      • Malisha says:

        Not all Floridians are idiots, agreed, BUT those who are not are smart enough to get off doing jury duty! 😆

  12. disappointed says:

    Three things Florida needs to change:
    1 respect the lives of the children in THEIR State. Trayvon, Caylee two that come to mind.

    2 change the SYG/self defense law.

    3 stop sending jury notices to the village idiots.

    I am sure their are more, feel free to add to them if you so desire.

    • KateW says:

      Discipline police officers that break the law and cover up crimes.

      • Malisha says:

        Fire them.
        Disgrace them.
        Charge them with crimes including malfeasance and misfeasance in office.
        Imprison them with the people they have been imprisoning.

  13. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Here is a newspaper article about fogen’s distributing a letter throughout the community plus a copy of the letter.

    “But 14 months later, at least two of the same officers investigated the shooting death of Trayvon Martin — and cleared Zimmerman — even though his voice was the loudest calling for their punishment in the Ware case.”


    • Malisha says:

      His voice was not even HEARD in the Ware case. His voice was heard after it, in regard to taking away Brian Tooley’s pension and complaining about the police being lazy because he claimed to be on a “drive around” in a squad car and the officers went for donuts. It was all made up. He did not even mention Sherman WAre’s name. He was a community mouth that Lee got to do his bidding to make another blah blah blah speech so Lee could take over the department. This is not about advocacy for the abused; it’s about self-promotion.

      Don’t believe a thing that liar says. Where are those “mentees”? HUH? Any TV giving them a slot for them to talk about wonderful George teaching them to be upstanding citizens? How come the Hell not? HUH?

    • Girlp says:

      The dailycaller is a right wing website no different from any of the others, I do not trust their reporting…also if this is true why isn’t MOM waiving the flyer around like anything else he exgarrated. There is no evidence of this letter we would have seen it.

      • Malisha says:

        Those fliers could have been created at any time after the Trayvon Martin murder. Had they been distributed BY Fogen, he would have had 100 witnesses (NOT Frank Taaffe) running around BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED showing that they had copies, that he had leafletted WITH THEM, that he had gotten their help in spreading the word, etc. Those fliers are fakes and not very good ones. Why was the big poo-bah not featured in the OS giving a statement about all those meetings and all that advocacy? I’ll tell you why: Chief Tooley did not get fired. He DID get blindsided. There was not a single report that Tooley was called in that night and appeared on the scene, like Lee did after Trayvon was killed. Tooley can’t be everywhere at all times. He was set to retire and one month before his retirement, Justin Collison went on his drunken rage and this resulted, but the thug’s daddy’s friends on the force covered for him and swept the little peccadillo under the rug.

        Do you know why, IMO, Tooley retired early? Because when he learned of the Justin Collison thing he DID do the right thing. He did NOT go on TV and tell everyone, “Our officers did no wrong; there was evidence Mr. Ware tried to spit on Mr. Collison and he was pushing him away to avoid being spat upon. Many street people carry communicable diseases.” Instead, Tooley decided to clean house and punish some officers, so they turned the table on him, deprived him of his power, and spread a total lie about what happened. TOOLEY WAS NOT A RACIST COP; he was pushed aside like a bag of garbage and he decided not to fight it becuase Sanford was entering a wave of “defensive” racism he didn’t want to witness, and he began to realize he couldn’t control. It is the height of irony that the charges of “racism” ended up being leveled against HIM when what HE did was respond appropriately to the crisis that was developing in his Department.

        If Tooley were still Chief on 2/26/2012, I believe one of two things would have happened: EITHER (a) Fogen would not have had the guts to arrange with Tim Smith that he was gonna rise to heroic stardom on the back of some young AA kid that night; or (b) He’d have done what he did and been arrested and charged with murder.

        Had he been arrested that night, I think the chances of conviction would have been much greater, because he would NOT have had all the donated money for the giant campaign of slander against his victims and Sanford would NOT have become the locus of the big “Great Racist White Hope” effort to clear a white man and bless him for a random racist murder.

  14. LiveByTheGulf says:

    I found the Feb 2011 Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Administrative Investigation: Professional Conduct Review Section at

    The report includes details and involves Justin Collison, Ware. I didn’t read it thoroughly, but I didn’t see any mention of Zimmerman in the report.

    “This investigation was conducted for the Sanford Police Department at their request. All records related to this investigation have been delivered to the Sanford Police Department.”

    The complainant was Captain David Del Rosso.

    The 44-page document contains:
    Alleged Allegations against a list of 11 subjects as follows:
    Officers: Zachary Glenn, Donald Flowers, Timothy Smith,
    Samuel McNeil, John Walsh
    Sergeant: Anthony Raimondo
    Lieutenants: Michael Taylor, Christopher Collison
    Investigator: Rebecca Villalona
    Former Chief of Police: Brian Tooley


    At the bottom of the webpage is six additional documents.
    1) Zimmerman Letter to Sanford Churches
    2) Zimmerman family member letter to NAACP
    3) Trayvon Martin’s “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA” Tweets — The Daily Caller
    4 – 6) Not related

    • Malisha says:

      Those Sanford Churches said they never got any letter or leaflets from Fogen, they had never heard of Fogen until he killed Trayvon Martin, and their congregations were never leafletted by Fogen. Furthermore, Natalie Jackson who represented Sherman Ware and his family, said that didn’t happen; Sherman Ware’s sister never heard of Fogen until he killed Trayvon Martin.

      Like the attack on Fogen by Trayvon, like the suspicion of “the suspect” to start with, like the mentoring of the poor little pBa-lack kids who so needed Fogen to straighten their lives out, like the diploma Fogen never earned, like the “You got a problem homie?”, like the circling of the vehicle by the thug, like the lunging on top of the guy to check out what weapon he had in his hands, like all those things — the “advocacy on behalf of Sherman Ware” was a lie.

      Easy to see. It was a lie.

  15. crazy1946 says:

    For anyone who wants to get up to speed on the Mihael Dunn/Jordan Davis case here is a link that will give you a good start. Dunn’s initial interview, his girl friends interview, and other good basic material. Just follow the links.


  16. believeinkarma says:

    Question- if DOJ charges a hate crime, where is the trial held? Where does the jury come from?

    What I am hoping is, the answer is not floriduh.

    Just so you all know I am having a personal protest on spelling floriduh correctly. Not until they earn earnit & looks like going to be a while.
    I have been boycotting walmerde (walmart) since I learned about them from Frontline in the 90’s & they weren’t in my state. Now there everywhere.

    • KateW says:

      That is an excellent question, and I hope it isn’t in Sanford or Florida either. But I do believe it will probably be in Florida somewhere.

    • Girlp says:

      Here it has been held in our state capital or Atlanta…I believe the Professor said Tampa, FL, I’m also seeing FT. Meyers, Orlando, Jacksonville and Ocla have offices.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Also in Florida:


      One of the most successful and innovative programs we researched is the Fair Food Program, developed by the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) and promoted in partnerships with T’ruah (formerly Rabbis for Human Rights North America) and the International Justice Mission, among others.

      Slavery and other human rights abuses are an ongoing threat in U.S. tomato fields. Chief Assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas Molloy once called Florida’s tomato fields “ground zero” for modern-day slavery in the United States. Over the past 15 years, seven cases of forced labor slavery have been successfully prosecuted, resulting in more than 1,000 people freed from slavery in U.S. tomato fields.

      The Fair Food program, developed by tomato pickers themselves through CIW, establishes a zero tolerance policy for slavery, child labor, and serious sexual abuse on Florida’s tomato farms. Companies that join the Fair Food Program agree to pay a small price increase for fairly harvested tomatoes (1.5 cents more per pound) and promise to shift purchases to the Florida tomato growers who abide by these higher standards—and away from those who will not. Major fast food companies, like McDonalds and Subway, and supermarket chains Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s have already endorsed the Fair Food Program.”

    • bettykath says:

      I think Orlando, right down the street from Sanford.

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    (CNN) — [Breaking news update at 8:40 p.m. ET]
    Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, told CNN’s Anderson Cooper on Thursday that his children had grown up in a diverse community, so he didn’t feel a need to have a conversation about how Trayvon and his other son should deal with race. Rather, he said he talked with his children about “how we prepare them to become teenagers, to become upstanding citizens, to conduct themselves in public.” But once his unarmed son was shot, he said that changed. “What is it I can tell my child now?” he said.

    • KateW says:

      😦 Tim Wise, an anti racist activist, said the same thing when the verdict was read and he had to comfort his daughter because she was upset by this. This is his essay and he suggest we share it. What do we tell all of our children?

      I was preoccupied the other day and I thought to myself, [ ] will become the stuff of nightmares. The boogeyman. A story we tell our children to scare them into behaving, a story we tell them to scare them into being wary of strangers and people following you home at night, in the dark.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for sharing the article link, KateW.

        excerpt from article:

        And so it continues. Year after year and case after case it continues, with black life viewed as expendable in the service of white fear, with black males in particular (but many a black female as well and plenty of Latino folk too) marked as problems to be solved, rather than as children to be nurtured. And tonight, their parents will hold them and try to assure them that everything is going to be OK, even as they will have to worry again tomorrow that their black or brown child may represent the physical embodiment of white anxiety, and pay the ultimate price for that fact, either at the hands of a random loser with a law enforcement jones, or an actual cop doing the bidding of the state. In short, they will hold their children and lie to them, at least a little — and to themselves — because who doesn’t want their child to believe that everything will be alright?

        But in calmer moments these parents of color will also tell their children the truth. That in fact everything is not going to be OK, unless we make it so. That justice is not an act of wish fulfillment but the product of resistance. Because black parents know these things like they know their names, and as a matter of survival they make sure their children know them too.

  18. KateW says:

    This reads like a conspiracy. It began with the cover up with the SPD and ended with a tainted, questionable jury.

    • ..and with a quickness! My grandma who was born in the early 1900’s was astounded by how fast criminals were found and arrested by the power of Motorola. In this century, Motorola is nothing compared to the power social media. SM is a game changer and the law better hurry, revise its antiquated procedures, and catch up!

      • KateW says:

        Yes, it is extremely fast. The blood has not yet dried on the killer’s hands and the people are exposing it all. It is amazing.

        • Along with ethics requirements, I think I’ll make a proposal to my state bar group that all practicing litigators complete a mandatory continuing legal education requirement in social media best practices. I was personally embarrassed for BLDR that he wasn’t able to handle Jenna Lauer’s twitter page on cross. But no doubt that the young woman who sat with the prosecution team would have nailed JL.

  19. Sophia33 says:

    Tracy Martin just said what we all have been been saying – B37 had her mind made up before the trial started.

    • KateW says:

      Yes. And she lied to get into that jury box. She says to Bernie De La Rionda during voir dire, I don’t know nothing about nothing and there is absolutely nothing I know (lol). But during the interview she admits she used outside information to formulate her verdict.

      The prosecutors office has all of their information and if evidence comes out that there were violations then I say they should be investigated.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        If this is proven to be the case, then the double jeopardy clause does not apply to gz. Since a “fixed” jury or juror means, that he faced no jeopardy at all in reality. I think that USSC ruling came from the Gotti trial, where a single juror had been discovered to have taken a bribe.

        So, if this is proven to be the case, the Justice Department needs to immediately pull this case and start over.

        On another note, interest has waned, the WH petition, I note, is languishing at 33k.

  20. This new petition to Angela Corey brings up an interesting question. Does anyone know when her role as Special Prosecutor ends?

    • Malisha says:

      Not necessarily interested in her role right now, but rather in her integrity. SHE decided to do this show trial and to make sure Fogen got off. This COULD not have happened without her making that deal, whether she made it in April 2012 or in April 2013. She did make it.

  21. believeinkarma says:

    There is a petition at change.org to have Angela Corey office look into jury misconduct.

  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Ella’s Song
      Composed by Bernice Johnson Reagon, copyright: Songtalk Publishing Co.
      We who believe in freedom cannot rest
      We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

      Until the killing of Black men, Black mothers’ sons
      Is as important as the killing of White men, White mothers’ sons

      And that which touches we most is that I had a chance to work with people
      Passing on to others that which was passed on to me

      To me young people come first, they have the courage where we fail
      And if I can shed some light as they carry us through the gale

      The older I get the better I know that the secret of my going on
      Is when the reins are in the hand of the young who dare to run against the storm

      Not needing to clutch for power, not needing the light just to shine on me
      I need to be just one in the number as we stand against tyranny

      Struggling myself don’t mean a whole lot I come to realize
      That teaching others to stand up and fight is the only way my struggle survive

      I’m a woman who speaks in a voice and I must be heard
      At time I can be quite difficult, I’ll bow to no man’s word

  23. KateW says:

    The killer won’t get his gun back just yet. The DOJ asks for a hold on the evidence as they say they have an investigation going on.


    • KateW says:

      Professor this was a good read. I learned something here. I remember Bernie De La Rionda saying to the jury, the law says you must hold [ ] accountable for his actions. John Guy said you cannot start at the end of that book, you have to start at the beginning. Meaning, you have to start where he made assumptions about Trayvon Martin and began his pursuit. People have said it is not illegal to follow someone, however, I say you cannot formulate a crime in your mind and then act on it. Why do I say this. We don’t know exactly what happened in the middle, meaning who threw the first blow, I surmise because it doesn’t matter. What we know is what happened at the beginning and ultimately what happened during and at the end.

      In the beginning, the killer formulated something in his mind that would potentially happen. This kid was walking home, he was committing no crime. He wasn’t loitering, he wasn’t peeping in someone’s window, he wasn’t vandalizing, he wasn’t breaking and entering, he wasn’t soliciting, he was doing nothing but walking home. However, this coward, decides “he must be up to no good”, he just has to be. Why? Because he is walking too slow, he’s not walking fast enough, it’s raining-who walks in the rain, and I can’t tell if he is on drugs but he has a hoodie on so he must be on drugs. You cannot formulate a crime from any of these things. So it may not be a crime to follow but you should not be able to follow someone while formulating a crime because you are expecting a certain outcome. At that point I would say he was stalking. When Vinnie Politan asked Corey a couple of days ago to use one word to describe Trayvon Martin and she said PREY. When following turns to stalking the victim becomes prey.

      So now we have the beginning and not quite sure what happened in the middle but we can say the forensics refutes what the killer says happened in the end, and we have ear witness and other witness testimony to piece it all together. John Guy said you cannot start at the end of that book because in the middle it could have been Trayvon Martin defending himself as John Guy said. I believe that all fits your description of reckless, negligent and intentional. As Mr Rich Mantei stated, you don’t point a gun at someone’s heart unless you intend (intentional) to kill them.

      • Yes, I’ve said this umpteen zillion times. Doesn’t matter whether the defendant was breaking the law when he followed Trayvon. What matters is why was he following Trayvon and he gave us the answer: to prevent this fucking coon and this fucking asshole, from getting away out the rear entrance before the cops arrive.

        That’s why he decided to hunt him down instead of returning to his truck.

        And that is why he is the aggressor and the aggressor instruction should have been given.

        • believeinkarma says:

          I still think the nose wound is from gun recoil. The back wound is from the gun recoil pushing head back. That is why he asked am I bleeding. Why blood is not down to collar and blood going to beard in pic. If had been earlier would have gotten smeared when on back & struggling.

          The little red areas look like irritation from short grass not cement.

        • KateW says:

          Yes! As you say that aggressor instruction should have been included! And then it sounds like the jury did exactly what John Guy said not to do and they began the book midway without looking, as he put it, how they got there in the first place. But then again after hearing B37 interview, it sounds like some of them didn’t bother to read the book at all.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Does anyone know the going price for a juror in a murder case in the Banana Republic of Florida? I wonder if the Tea Party will fund Michael Dunn’s defense with enough money to buy a good little jury of pure little racists?

  24. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  25. Malisha says:

    Justin Collison DOES resemble the guy in court in the pink (mauve? lilac?) shirt. But the first time I saw the picture, I saw him face-forward and it looked more like him. This pix is sort of turned to the side. There’s definitely a resemblance.

    Since Trent was turned AWAY from the trial, there MUST be a list of who did attend the trial. I need to find out if Justin Collison attended. It would kind of give the lie to that fairy tale about Fogen being on the accusatory side in the “police racism” story back in 2011 wouldn’t it?

  26. LiveByTheGulf says:

    December: Two Sanford police officers were suspended with pay Thursday after another employee turned in the two for violating a department policy regarding electronic communications.

    Officers Jason Bowen and Ned Golden II have been relieved of duty with pay, pending the outcome of an internal investigation. Sgt. Anthony Raimondo of the professional standards office will complete the investigation.

    SPD public information officer Cleo Cohen said the department could not comment on the nature of the violation until the investigation is complete. However, she did say they were suspended for violating procedures pertaining to electronic communications.

    The policy Cohen referred to outlined officers’ use of e-mail and chat functions.

    Read more: The Sanford Herald – 2 Sanford officers under investigation

  27. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Oh, the hopes we had in the sixties. 😦

    There is so much work ahead. ONWARD!

    Nobody is going to turn me around!

  28. deetruth says:

    Great interview with Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin on Rev. Al’s show this evening. They still have more class in their pinkies than all of the Zimmerman family and their friends and supporters combined.

  29. crazy1946 says:

    Simple explanation for my questions. While I would have preferred that the Fogdoit be eaten by a lion, I would accept he receive a thousand ant bites to his receiving no punishment for his crime! I’ll supply the honey if some one else will supply the ants!

  30. crazy1946 says:

    Question for the Professor and the group as a whole. Why are we ignoring the up coming trial of Shelly? Can we as a group make a difference in the outcome of that trial? Perhaps we can sweep the legs out from under the Fogdoit and cause a little more discomfort for he and his family? If it was found out that Shelly or anyone else aided the Fogdoit in the murder of Trayvon, could conspiracy charges be filed against the Fogdoit? I’m just not sure that there is no other way to approach this case under Florida law, even with his being found not guilty at this point. Judge Lester suggested that the Fogdoit be charged along with Shelly, could that not still be done?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i don’t think it is being ignored. the trial was delayed, people are keeping a lookout as to when the case will be heard. i would be shocked if as a group we ignored it. i do doubt that there is anything we can do to impact the outcome, however.

    • I do not plan to ignore Shellie’s perjury case.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Professor Leatherman, That is the answer that I had hoped for and actually expected! Thank you! Any input on the other questions I asked, or are they so ridiculous that they should not be asked?

      • bettykath says:

        thank you

      • Puck says:

        No matter the outcome, if through the trial people become aware of how they were planning to flee (second valid passport in safety deposit box, money transfers, structuring), the more the Zimmermans will be exposed for the dregs they are.

  31. fauxmccoy says:

    excellent interview on right now with tracy, sybrina, ben crump on politics nation

  32. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Remember that gz always gave his address readily to NEN in earlier Retreat at TL calls? That is because he knew where the “suspects” were. The night of 2/26/12 he said, after he gave his address something like “Shoot, I don’t know where this kid is.”

    It was gz’s practice to keep “suspects” in sight. Remember his high speed chase of a car of someone who had stolen something from a
    store. That not only speaks to his policy of keeping “suspects in sight” but also the manic level of his response.

    I have no doubt, that on the night of 2/26/12, gz would have stuck to his standard practice of attempting to chase after and relocate “his” suspect.

  33. believeinkarma says:

    I can’t believe what he said on FOX. How did he get inside info? Stinky floriduh. Is this jury tampering?

  34. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Port Canaveral: In searching the net for Brian Tooley, I came across a disturbing article about an officer who allegedly used likeness of Trayvon complete with skittles and tea for target practice. Plus, the officer offered the targets to other police.

    Port Canaveral is 1 hour 7 minutes from Sanford FL

  35. Woow! says:

    Judge Nelson repeated her little sequestration speech every day with a grin on her face knowing damn well there was no real sequestration going on.

    I can not believe she allowed those women to go to spas that had on TV’s, family and friends vist, keep cell phones…. Judge Nelson wanted CAC to go free.

    Were the TV’s in their rooms blocked from receiving non movie channels?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      woow — we do not know if spa treatments were brought into their hotels or they went out. they had deputies with them wherever they went. news stations were unavailable in their hotel rooms and deputies held onto cell phones except for extremely limited times in which jurors could make monitored calls to family members.

      i hate this verdict — but i don’t think we need to go out seeking and assigning malice for which there is no proof.

      i had posted an article previously which outlined the precise conditions the jurors existed, i’ll find it again, if you request.

      • Woow! says:

        Are all the reports that friends and family visited them incorrect? Not trying to assign malice just asking questions. As we all know there are so many rumors out there and it is hard to discern fact from fiction 🙂

        • fauxmccoy says:

          no, visits were allowed but deputies were present. separating fact from fiction is important to me. i consider question to be perfectly reasonable to that process.

          • Malisha says:

            Deputies were present? Oh that’s a big relief. BIG RELIEF. Deputies, let’s see, who would THEY be? People like, say, Oserman and Serino and Singleton and Tim Smith — law enforcement officers, honorable individuals who are there to uphold the law and protect the citizenry, yes? YES YES? Oh THEM, so — don’t worry, that sequestration had to be just fine. I trust that, sure.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            it is what it is, malisha.

            i have many good and honorable friends and family in LE just as i know there are some really bad characters.

          • Malisha says:

            But Faux, your relatives are not LEOs in Sanford Florida, are they?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            of course not. sanford is a hell hole.

            i am not yet at the point where i will condemn the entire sheriff’s dept or police dept. LAPD is about as corrupt as it gets and still there are decent officers, such is the nature of almost any LE agency.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          hope this answers some questions


          i’ve read much more about the conditions in which they were kept.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      That’s common. Outings and such.

  36. Malisha says:

    DOJ needs to investigate FDLE itself. Its-damn-self.

  37. endlessummer76 says:

    The child killer won’t get his gun back yet–DOJ has put a hold on all the evidence:

  38. bettykath says:

    I like the suggested breakdown for killings. Much better than what FL has. Going to 12 person juries would be a good idea as well.

    Now that we’ve put some hope in the feds, here’s a new report


    U.S. reviewing 27 death penalty convictions for FBI forensic testimony errors

    By Spencer S. Hsu, Published: July 17

    An unprecedented federal review of old criminal cases has uncovered as many as 27 death penalty convictions in which FBI forensic experts may have mistakenly linked defendants to crimes with exaggerated scientific testimony, U.S. officials said.

    The review led to an 11th-hour stay of execution in Mississippi in May.

  39. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    Excerpt from article:

    Where were you on Saturday, July 13th at 9:59 p.m., when a six person jury in Sanford, Florida delivered a verdict of NOT GUILTY to the man who shot and killed Trayvon Benjamin Martin? The verdict brought back painful memories; of Amadou Diallo and Yusef Hawkins, both shot dead while unarmed. It recalled Medgar Evers, shot dead in his driveway 50 years ago this June, and Emmett Till, whose open casket forced a nation to face the shame of lynching. Horrific moments in history that moved a nation to tears. The verdict reemphasized the need for change in our country. The need to take a serious look at race relations; the need to rethink our gun laws, and the need for fairness in our police departments and our courts. But none of this will happen if we are silent.

    Silence. Silence is an American tradition when it comes to race. A tradition as traditional as killers of black young men walking free out of court. A tradition as traditional as police departments believing that unarmed black kids are guilty even after they are killed. A tradition as traditional as profiling black teenagers as potential burglars instead of potential presidents. This silence has rained down on America like the rain in Sanford, Florida on the eve of Trayvon’s death, making the trail to top of the mountain seem like it is impossible to climb.

    However, if we are to reach the top of the mountain realizing that every young person, regardless of race, class, color or creed, has the right to walk safely home with a nothing but a bag of skittles and a can of ice tea in their hands, America, especially white America, must realize that Trayvon was our son too. A son born in Miami, Florida, trained in the American school system and buried in American soil. If Trayvon was white would we think that him and his friends come from a “different world?” Would the police department have believed that he might have actually lived in the neighborhood that he was shot dead in? Would the jury have related to his fears of being followed by a scary stranger? Or before any of this even happened, maybe George Zimmerman would have offered him a ride home to get him out of the rain?

    • a2nite says:

      Many white Americans don’t care. They are secure in their white privilege like that evil juror B37. White men write the laws for oppression & extermination of POC, especially black men.


      FUCK the law & FUCK the police.

      • Woow! says:

        They keep trying to oppress people karma will be a witch to pay when the roles revers and those same minorities become the majority.

        Where are they going to move to Europe? Remember South Africa. The poor whites that could not move had to compete with the blacks for jobs. They were no longer guarantee a good paying job because of white privilege. I am not saying that is what is going to happen her but I am saying let’s see how they cope with equality.

        • a2nite says:

          I don’t believe you. People still lionize Thomas Jefferson & rotten RW Ronald Reagan, both evil racist he-man woman haters. TJ was s rapist to boot.

          What karma?

          Oh, Ronnie died demented. Maybe his evil wife had to change his diapers. No, I bet she paid some POC to do it for her.

          Maybe he’s in hell sitting in dirty diapers with bed sores?

  40. Woow! says:

    We need to start organizing now for 2016 and midterms are around the corner. If you know someone who is not a registered voter, please drive them to the nearest voting office, or give $1.75 bus fare for them to go register.

    I am sure $20 will not send us into foreclosure. Spare $20 and buy someone a state issued ID. We can do this. It is more of us than them and you know what the supreme jackasses just did to the voting rights act.

    • believeinkarma says:

      We need the young vote. They usually don’t vote in midterm elections. So make sure our kids & grandkids& nieces & nephews vote.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      The next vote is 2014. The GOP is looking for a victory in the Senate and the House. GOP tries to take away the vote by changing the rules just before elections. Get an ID. Or consider letting them know to mail your ballet. Mailing may be safer than voting booth where the machine can make “mistakes” – changing DEM vote to GOP for any voter. Then there’s the billboards warning people it’s a federal crime to vote illegally. We need to be on the watch for tricks to take away votes.

  41. believeinkarma says:

    Now alternate juror E54 male says he agreed with verdict. Same reasons as B37. Florida justice system & southern whites are all too prejudicial for a fair jury. This is so wrong. Fogen was never going to be guilty in floriduh and Trayon was guilty for walking while black. But race wasn’t an issue?

    Floriduh may be ignorant racists but not the whole country.

    • Malisha says:

      70% of the country is not like the other 30%.

      Weird. 70% of Americans figured out this difficult problem; only 30% are still saying to themselves, “How come they charged this guy with a crime when allz he done was to do what I’da done f’I was him?”

      • Woow! says:

        Malisha I don’t think it is 70/30 maybe 80/20.

        • Malisha says:

          You’re probably right. I was just going from some poll — 70% nation-wide said Fogen was guilty of murder. But we don’t know how many of the 30% remaining thought he was guilty of manslaughter. I think only a tiny idiotic morally bankrupt percentage thought he was NOT guilty or would even pretend to think that because they wanted him to walk.

      • believeinkarma says:

        The silent majority needs to wake up and speak. Drown out the bully ignorant 30%.
        We need to get the 70% to vote in 2014.

        • truthseeker66 says:

          The 30% are the fringe they make the most noise and get their way. 90% of Americans want gun control legislation, but the law makers r held captive by the 10% fringe..

      • crazy1946 says:

        Hmmm, isn’t it strange that those figures (70/30) are so close to the division of wealth in this nation? Could that mean that with wealth comes lack of care for your fellow citizens? How many wealthy people actually think they made it on their own with no help from anyone else?

  42. aussie says:

    Juror b37 is going to be outed within the next 24 hours.

    • Woow! says:

      She has already been outed. Angry teens and 20 somethings pay more attention than you think they do. I was up real early this morning and I scanned some of the gossip blogs where my kids post to be nosy (yeah I went there). Those kids paid closed attention to everything B37 said and did not say and was able to deduce her age, general area where she live ….. there was even a picture of the jurors leaving the court house (which I will not post or direct you to and the owner of that site told them not to do that because their IP addresses would be tracked by law enforcement).

      All of this from a gossip blog… who would have thunk that ! I posted some of their comments about B37 on yesterday’s board. I must say I am proud to know you just can’t anything over on kids today.

      • Kelly Payne says:

        Trayvon was one of their own and most kids look out for their own. Teenagers and most people in their early 20’s seem to behave better than we give them credit for.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      What have u heard?

      • Woow! says:

        Heard nothing read a lot…….bloggers posted a cell phone picture of a women they said was on the jury possible B37 since not confirmation you know how it is) i saw it this morning but it had been removed by lunchtime.

        Social media was blowing up with kids scouring twitter, facebook etc. searching for B37 from clues found in her interview.

  43. Woow! says:

    If we took all the crazies and moved them to one state all of their own where they could form their own laws and government, how long do you think they would last?

  44. believeinkarma says:

    I want to report a real suspicious State. We have had a rash of bad verdicts lately and this State is just waffling around. Did I say this was a red state? They look up to no good. Hmm hmm.

    • Malisha says:

      believeinkarma, that right there was the funniest thing I have ever heard in all my life ever EVER EVER and now you’re in trouble because I can’t laugh at anything else– ever again — because it pales in comparison —

      knock knock
      who’s there?
      nobody. They’re all out laughing at what believeinkarma said.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Thanks. I have been reading this blog a long time but never commented till after the verdict. Has really helped with my anger and frustrations about the injustice. My family was glad I found an outlet.

        • I’m glad you exposed your sense of humor.


          • Since the defense called the kitchen sink and the downstairs toilet to identify GZ as the person who uttered the terrified death shriek, I think we can reasonably assume they would have called Jeremy to testify, unless he had something else to say.

            Something damaging.

            Why didn’t the prosecution call him?

            Add Mary Cutcher to the list of witnesses not called by the prosecution.

            I want to know the explanation for these two no-shows because the situation does not look good.

            Not. At. All.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Forgot to add – Oh sh*t! They are voting!

    • endlessummer76 says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      So funny……..so sad.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      niiiiiiice 😀

    • Lynn says:

      Actually, Florida voted blue last election. Obama won by a slim margin and Romney wouldn’t accept it for quite a while. I’m sure the Zimmerman case will only help us to go blue with a wider margin next time. Our racist Gov tried changing the voting days, times, and so on to turn the tables back to his favor. Sad.

  45. fauxmccoy says:

    yup, florida’s laws are a hot mess. i firmly believe in ‘innocent until proven guilty’ but a close reading of florida’s laws and seeing them in action leads us to ‘innocent even if proven guilty, depending on defendant’s race’.

    also, i question the 6 person jury except in death penalty cases. we’ve seen how easy it is for a jury to be selected that is one dimensional.

    fred — are you aware of any other state that allows for 6 person jury? this strikes me as nuts and yet another legislative failure for the state of florida.

  46. believeinkarma says:

    I read that the fogen’s are afraid their phones are bugged. Lol they should have been worried sooner. I bet they are looking at all the tweets and internet activity too for a while. Feds have a lot more resources than floriduh.

    • Woow! says:

      They should be. They thought they were going to live the good life off those donations. They are the most famous family in America right now.

      • Malisha says:

        Well it won’t be illegal for anybody to go in the same direction of them with loaded guns; it won’t be illegal for anybody to stop the and question what they’re doing around anywhere they are; it won’t be illegal for anybody to notify anybody else that they are suspects. And if they scare anybody (think of THAT, what’s the chance of THAT happening?), it will be justifiable for whomever they have scared to shoot them dead without giving them any other injuries. Hmmm …

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        correction Woow, they are the most infamous family in America and the whole wide world. Don’t forget the world was watching.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      edgar allan poe: the tell tale heart

      let their paranoia be their own downfall.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      They all need to sweat some more, IMHO. Yay for the Feds. Maybe Obama can send some drones in, LOL!

  47. Girlp says:

    The DOJ will not say anything they will say what they are going to do when they are ready then they will say if they will proscecute or not. Not only that an investigation can go on forever so it will go until they close it. We could hear something soon or never.

  48. What do you think the DOJ investigation is doing today? I’m so curious about their internal discussions and if any “interviews” are being readied?

    • Woow! says:

      Me too… I would love to know what was on CAC cell phone that MOM did not want to get out.

      Does anyone know if the DOJ can get all of the information that was sealed?

      • believeinkarma says:

        Yes and probably a lot more.

        • Woow! says:

          I hope the DOJ proceed with an indictment. People with similar interests and goals befriend each other. All they need to do is look at his friends and family to see what type of person he is.

  49. Woow! says:

    I scanned CTH during the trial every once in a while to see what they were up to. It struck me as odd they all of nutcracker followers believed he traveled to Miami and interviewed TM homies (his actual words) and they had nothing good to say about treythug.

    1. do those people really believe that fool interviewed friends of TM
    2. apparently TM friends told him of his drug dealing and drinking lean
    3. he also claimed to have interviewed school cops that gave him the scoop on the suspension.

    There were a lot of other things said that hurts my heart to type but you get the point. These people wanted to find something wrong with this kid so bad they fabricated a criminal background with gang banging friends.

    You cannot find an impartial jury from people that would believe a grocery store clerk is a great criminal investigator and cracked the TM case.

    The other thing is these same people call a divorced couple lack luster parents and baby mama baby daddy.

    No child left behind has given us a nation of dumb people that cannot think or reason for themselves.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      No Child Left Behind was an act in 2001.
      I think the jurors are older than anyone affected by that particular Act. So, I’m wondering why you noted that particular to determine why we have “a nation of dumb people.

      • Woow! says:

        I know when it was enacted and I know the age of those who fight tooth and nail to hinder progress and take us back to pre-civil war era. When that generation die off hopefully we will have a change of attitudes and compassion for other races. Oh, I will try and be politically correct going forward.

        To answer your question, NCLB is synonymous with dumbing down or just dumb Americans.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Rant and rag away.
          I’m out.
          I guess there’s no point in asking questions here.

          • Woow! says:

            No raging lunatic here 🙂 It is hard to tell a person’s demeanor from a comment. You asked a question I tried to explain myself then answered why I referenced NCLB.

            I also stated I would try and be more politically correct going forward when I should have said “I will make a note to mention something without a proper reference”. Did that help…

            I promise I was not being snotty..I apologize 🙂 don’t leave

      • Malisha says:

        I agree, Deborah M, we were all pre-dumbed by the time Bush decided to not leave our kids’ behinds “behind.”

    • Girlp says:

      Odd as well because no one else said these things about Trayvon or his parents…BTW like my parents Trayvon’s parents co-parented after the divorce Trayvon’s father never abandoned his son an parented Jahvaris as well, they are good people.

      • Woow! says:

        In my first sentence I stated “I scanned CTH”. Go read some of their posts for yourself then call me a liar.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Who called you a liar?
          Sorry, I couldn’t tell if you were responding to me.

          • Woow! says:

            No one came right out and called me a liar…..

            Girlp said: ” Odd as well because no one else said these things about Trayvon or his parents…BTW like my parents Trayvon’s parents co-parented after the divorce Trayvon’s father never abandoned his son an parented Jahvaris as well, they are good people.”

            and I was letting her know that I mentioned in the first sentence of my post where I got the information I was commenting about.

            I took it personal that there are some (CTH and people like them) that refer to the Martin’s as baby mama daddy or just bad parents.

            I think she misunderstood what I was trying to say and I responded by letting her know I have no reason to lie and check it out for herself.

        • Girlp says:

          I am not calling you a liar I am agreeing with you.

    • aussie says:

      A few months ago he was saying he got the suspension records through FOI and actually had a few photocopies of things, if I recall. Didn’t follow it much.

      “cannot think or reason for themselves.” >> kids usually learn this at school. Poorer schools have worse teachers. Bad teachers are cheaper. They are also less likely to teach science or any of the rational thinking usually associated with science.

      Accepting received information uncritically is also favoured by the more extreme religious denominations, and of course by various political and economic entities, all of which benefit from unquestioning obedience.

      So, those who can’t think for themselves are more easily led. They are more likely to follow quietly, because they can’t think of some other way to go.

      All that’s happened with Sundance & co is, they’re following a different drum.

    • Rachael says:

      Do not EVEN get me started on the crap at the outhouse “the last refuse.”

  50. colin black says:

    I don’t know if American genral public have always been so dumb.

    But the Caylee fiasco an now fogggages been let of for stalking an MURDERING A CHILD


    The geral public are not to be trusted as unbiased jurours.

    They pay no heed to the law or instructions an just there own pre conceived predudices.

    Without trust worthy jurours the law means nothing.

    The guilty can walk an innocent become convicts.


    Admitt it your jurours are IDIOTS an even worse raceist idiots.

    Seqestered jurrys must cease an so should the lottery of the lie fest named voie dire.

    Proffesinall jurys educated retired decent upstanding compassionate people should get the gig.

    An be well paid an anonomous.

    An serve for up to three years if they are willing.

    Or say a thousand people on Skype or similar again decent vetted people.

    Watch the case gavel to gavel an at the end of trial the thousand people /remote viewing jurours vote guilty or not.

    An the highest percentage wins say 998 innocent two guilty.

    Innocent prevails.

    Anythings got to be better than the farceical system as is.

    • Woow! says:

      Collin we know the jurors are racist bigots and dumb to boot. You will get no arguments from us on that.

      America has a long history of racism but it stayed underneath the surface. Racists were shamed into not showing their bigotry in public. For years bigots were kept from holding political office on the national level or if there were any we didn’t know about them.

      When Obama announced he was running for president, the people that kept the crazies at bay let them lose on all of us to do and say the things they did not want to get caught saying. Obama won and whites felt they were losing their country (hehe). The GOP (greedy old pussies) lost control and they crazies started moved them so far to the right they have to pander to them to win elections.

      Unfortunately we are stuck with them unless people get out to vote and send them packing.

      • Malisha says:

        But you can’t outvote them any more because now voting costs lots of money. One vote doesn’t generally cost lots of money, but enough votes to defeat the bought-and-paid-for votes does.

  51. Malisha says:

    OH, and I believe the JURY asked JN to see to it that when they brought in their verdict, the Fulton-Martins were not there. WHY? Because when she polled the jury those three who wanted to convict did not want to look into their faces.

    I am SURE that at least one of the three (the one who was Taaffe’s “hold-out”) said point blank: I WILL NOT VOTE NOT GUILTY if I have to look into their faces and say “yes.”

    • ks says:


      One of the good things about B37 outing herself is that it obliterated the thin line between the “intellectual” apologists for GZ like Jeralyn, Turley, bmaz, etc. and the racist bigots they were giving cover to like the Outhouse and trolls at HuffPo and OS. It put them squarely in bed with each other.

      Despite all their blah blah blah and parsing B37 proved that their reading of “the law” didn’t really matter at all as it’s clear that she was NG beforehand and was determined to fit or imagine or stretch whatever she needed to to fit her opinion.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it was ben crump who suggested the martins head back to miami and not be present, according to crump in a tv interview. the martin/fulton family wanted to be attending their regular church services on sunday morning.

  52. KateW says:

    In he spirit of love and unity. Justice for Trayvon Martin and all victims of crime.

  53. Malisha says:

    Oh BTW there was nothing about the “pen” incident. Very obviously, the sequestered and hidden jury was only HIDDEN, and not sequestered. Weekend visits, contact with the public while bowling, eating out and having spa services, contacts “supervised by monitors” who are actually folks who would just as soon shoot AA kids themselves — what a fraud!

    HIDDEN they were, because there was an ongoing crime being covered up by the court. Sequestered they were NOT.

  54. Malisha says:

    Can whoever posted a picture of a certain guy in the spectator seats (defense side of the room) suggesting the person was Justin Collison — can that person re-post the picture? I can’t find the picture, and I mixed up Justin Collison’s name in my memory, and I remember reading that prior Police Chief Brian Tooley [that’s why I mixed up Collison’s name, of course] was actually the one who wanted to do a valid investigation of the racist cover-up of the Sherman Ware case but now I can’t find THAT article either.

    Here’s what I’m looking for:

    1. Any picture or other evidence showing that Justin Collison came to the trial or participated in any way on the defense side; and

    2. Any mention, article, notice or other evidence suggesting that former Police Chief Brian Tooley was NOT wiped out of office for covering up the Ware case but was, rather, nudged into early and silent retirement by the racists in Sanford who did not want him to clean HOUSE after the incident caught attention in the public realm.

    I sure wish we could reach Tooley right now and begin to get some answers. My guess is that Lee and Osterman and Fogen were part of a “bloodless coup” to get Tooley out so they could push Lee in there without normal vetting or other niceties. Fogen was supposed to be rewarded with police status as soon as he graduated w/associates degree but he couldn’t graduate. Even with the cover-up of the 2005 violence, he was not succeeding at his quest. So he had to set up a little scene to give himself hero cred and he killed Trayvon Martin doing so.

    Tooley has some answers to questions that have not yet been asked. First, though: Was Justin Collison at the trial for one or more days? Where does Justin Collison work right now? Is he connected with anybody who is connected with any of the guards or monitors who sequestered the jury?

  55. sadlyyes says:

    somebody RICH,should offer a reward(100k )for more info on the killing
    very quickly all the snakes would turn on each other

  56. believeinkarma says:

    What about educating jurors? Jurors are always sitting and waiting while there are court discussions. We expect jurors to be able to read and interpret the law in their instructions. Jurors aren’t lawyers and are unfamiliar with legalese. Also have variable reading & comprehension skills and many lack critical thinking skills.

    My suggestion is to train jurors on the law of the case they are hearing. We expect jurors to understand the law without any training. While they are sitting & waiting explain the law in language the jury can understand. In this case what is murder 2, manslaughter, & self defense.

  57. Woow! says:

    There is a lot more to what happened to that child and we will never know. Jeremy, Jena, and Frank Taffee knows what happened and will never tell.

    Someone helped CAC hold that child or stalk, or chased him.

    I hope God will reveal the players in the federal investigation and I really hope the DOJ file civil rights charges. This man can not get away with cold blooded murder and his accomplices should be brought the justice too.

    I am hoping this group is like the GOP. They always tend to eat each other and implode from within. We have already seen that with B37, she can not keep her mouth shut. Bigot like to brag and one of them is going to tell someone something who is going to tell somebody else and then we will know. It may not be right away but it will happen.

    Those jurors need to crack. I have a strong gut feeling that some serious tampering went on with the jury.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      But they are getting counseling. Wonder if the counseling is to help them stay hidden and keep their mouths shut.

      • I think you’re right. As a said in the thread on jury instructions, I’ve never heard a court offer jurors counseling because of so-called ‘trial stress.’ Oftentimes they are sequestered and deliberate much, much longer than did these jurors. Something stinks about that, especially since B29 has gone underground and has been quiet.

    • lurker says:

      Greater injustices have gone far longer without any revelation of truth–all with cooperation from law enforcement and the justice system.

      Frankly what keeps me awake at night is BFF Osterman’s stated belief that every non-felon over the age of 18 should constantly be armed.

    • Jasmine says:

      I feel the same way especially about Jeremy. He was watching the whole time it seems but he was left out of testimony. So where is he? What did he see? And if you listen carefully he says ‘I know him’ and the Jenna says ‘I don’t care. Get up/in here’. He knows whether or not they were standing or what but he hasn’t said a thing. I don’t know how these people can live with themselves. No conscience whatsoever.

  58. Woow! says:

    Off topic:

    The story I posted a few threads back on the white guy on his 4th DUI in Louisiana that killed family of 7 in a head-on collision. Remember I posted the news article where the judge said he never intended for that guy to spend the rest of his life in jail.

    If Judge Carmichael would have followed the sentencing guideline, that man should have a minimum of 85 years.

    He was only sentenced to 1 year for each life he took, 7 years.

    Guess, what? He was in jail for almost 1 1/2 years before his trial. He will get out in 2.5 with time served and good behavior. This was done quietly. This man will go free next summer after killing 7 people

    Kill 1 black man you go free.
    Kill 7 blacks – do two years.
    How many blacks do a white person have to kill before they do 15 to life?

    • Malisha says:

      There are some white murderers in Florida performing an uncontrolled experiment on just that very question as we speak, Woow.

      • Woow! says:

        I hope not. Politicians will not change these horrible laws until it affects their families.

        I commented yesterday that SYG is a legal license to kill blacks.

        • Malisha says:

          The problem is that these horrible laws do NOT affect THEIR families because they make sure if somebody kills someone in THEIR family, the guy’s on death row in 60 days and never gets out until the needle’s in his arm. The problem with our “law” is that it is not applied legally.

  59. believeinkarma says:

    Something has been bothering me all last night after hearing Rachael talk to HLN & MSNBC. She kept on saying shortcut and running out of breath.

    It dawned on me all of us accept fogen’ s story of getting out of truck at tee, but what if it was from the short cut at Daffee’ s house from other complex.

    How long does it take from mail kiosk at other complex thru short cut to the tee. Would that distance be 4 minutes? Why do we believe truck was where fogen says it was? What if Shelly drove truck to complex while fogen was on foot following Trayvon? Is that our missing minutes.

    When fogen got out of truck was he in other complex where fogen’ s sister lived.

    • Trayvon had already reached the mail kiosk where he was sheltering from the rain and talking to Rachel before GZ left his house and called the NEN. He made up that stuff about seeing him at the cut-through.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Could it have been mail kiosk at other complex not RTL?

        • aussie says:

          The sister lived there in 2005, not evidence that she still does.

          The times don’t match up for any sheltering in the next estate. This was gone through with a fine-tooth comb many times when the NEN was still the only released evidence we had.

        • gblock says:

          The “missing” four minutes are the time it took for Fogen to find Trayvon and the altercation to occur. The time is “missing” because we don’t know exactly what happened during that time. Assuming that Fogen walked or ran much further than claimed is not as good a match for the available evidence.

  60. Malisha says:

    Of course, better laws don’t matter if you don’t have better judges and better people. Any law can easily be taken to mean the opposite of what it says. Look at the “best interests of the child” laws. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

    • Malisha says:

      But then again, honesty does count for something. So they can rewrite the laws of homicide in Florida to say:

      “Killing a person the judge thinks is worth protecting is murder-1 under any circumstances and is punishable by death. Killing a person the judge thinks is worth protecting but not worth a big hullaballoo is murder-2 under any circumstances and is punishable by lots of prison time in a profit center run by Wells Fargo Bank. Killing a person who’s not all that great is manslaughter and if you are just as bad as that person you killed, you go to jail but if you’re better (in the sole discretion of somebody more powerful than you) you can get off. Killing a person who is, like, pBa-lack or ferrin or Ayrab or, like, somepin like that is self-defense because your heart was in the right place and they prolly decked you or somepin. And killing a judge who arranged all this and who flushed all that is good and right and decent in the world down a big toilet is ten murder-1’s and don’t even think about it. Ten-Four [we have such fun saying stuff like that; it makes us feel all growdup and law-enforcementy]!”

  61. 1st :). Yes they are a mess.

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