Will the defendant testify or not testify?

Saturday, July 6, 2013

Good afternoon:

I write regarding whether the defendant should testify.

I advised my clients not to testify, unless there was some specific reason why I believed they had to testify. That reason typically would involve testifying about something that the jury would not otherwise know unless the client testifies. This is a common occurrence is self-defense cases and why most lawyers will say that a client must testify in such a case.

As Assistant State Attorney Richard Mantei said yesterday, the use of deadly force in self-defense is unlawful unless the defendant reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of being killed or suffering serious injury when he used deadly force. The reasonableness requirement means that the defendant’s conduct must be evaluated objectively by comparing his conduct to the conduct of a reasonable person in the same situation.

The jury of 6 women, 5 of whom are mothers, will decide whether the defendant acted reasonably.

The defendant is the only person who can tell them whether he believed he was in such danger when he shot Trayvon Martin. According to various witnesses who have testified, he described a situation to them that, if true, probably would objectively constitute such a danger. For the past year, his lawyer, Mark O’Mara has been aggressively selling the defendant’s story on national television and waiving the two bloody cell phone photographs of the back of the defendant’s head and his face as proof that the defendant acted reasonably. I think the national media has uncritically accepted O’Mara’s sales job and shamelessly promoted it.

The critical question, however, is whether the 6 women, 5 of whom are mothers, believe what the defendant told others. They are not required to believe anything he said. I doubt they will believe him, given his many contradictory statements, implausible claims, and the forensic evidence, particularly the DNA evidence, which proves that Trayvon Martin did not hit him 20-30 times in the face, grab his head and repeatedly slam it into a concrete sidewalk, or attempt to smother him by placing his hands over the defendant’s nose and mouth.

I believe the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant provoked the encounter with Trayvon Martin by following him in a vehicle and then on foot after Trayvon attempted to elude him. He hunted him down and attempted to restrain him contrary to a request by the police dispatcher not to follow him and he never identified himself or explained why he was restraining him. Under these circumstances, Trayvon Martin was entitled to use reasonable force to defend himself, escalating to deadly force when the defendant pulled out his gun. Therefore, Trayvon Martin used lawful force to defend himself and the defendant’s use of force was unlawful.

If he were my client, I would tell him that this is my assessment.

If he responded with, “What about my mother identifying me as the person who screamed?” I would say she did not do so unequivocally. Sybrina Fulton did and she was credible.

I would tell him that he gets to make the call regarding whether to testify. Given my assessment that the jury is going to convict him, I would also tell him that his only chance to avoid conviction would be to testify and persuade those 6 women, 5 of them mothers, that they should not convict him.

I would explain the following information.

The burden of proof in all criminal cases in this country is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime charged. The defendant is presumed innocent throughout the trial and the jury must find him “not guilty” unless the prosecution overcomes the presumption of innocence by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

The term “beyond a reasonable doubt” is generally defined as such a doubt as would exist in the mind of a reasonable person after fully and fairly considering all of the evidence or lack of evidence. The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond all doubt, just beyond a reasonable doubt. Generally, a reasonable doubt is a doubt for which a reason exists, as opposed to a speculative doubt or a mere suspicion. The Florida instruction states that a person is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt if they have an abiding belief in the truth of the charge. An abiding belief is a long lasting belief. The idea is that a juror is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt if they are sure that they will not change their mind sometime in the future due to some doubt they have about the strength of the evidence.

The definition of reasonable doubt is circular, which frustrates jurors who expect and want reasonable doubt quantified. For example, preponderance of the evidence, which is the burden of proof in a civil case, is defined as proving that a proposition is more likely so than not so or supported by more than 50% of the evidence. There is no equivalent percentage of certainty used to define reasonable doubt. I believe most trial lawyers and judges would agree that it’s possible that different juries hearing the same case could reach different conclusions. This is why attorney voir dire during jury selection and the use of cause and peremptory challenges to select a jury are so critically important.

Our legal system guards and protects the sanctity of the jury room and juror deliberations. A jury is never required to explain or justify its verdict. As a result, a jury actually gets to decide what constitutes reasonable doubt, even though they are never told that they have this power. The jury is a reflection of the community and it acts as the conscience of the community when it decides whether the prosecution has proved the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would tell him that if he can express his humanity and touch their hearts, he has a chance at manslaughter.

I would also tell him that he must tell the truth without any bullshit like he uttered on the Hannity Show.

He must admit when he lied, to whom he lied, and why he lied.

He must convince them that he acted out of fright, not anger.

I think he’s going to testify for all the wrong reasons because he has always been able to lie his way out of trouble.

Ain’t going to work this time.

I have one final reason for believing he will testify. His lawyers did not voir dire the prospective jurors on his right to remain silent and not testify. I always did that in my cases to make sure the jurors understood that they could not use his silence against him by presuming he had something to hide.

964 Responses to Will the defendant testify or not testify?

  1. The fact that we’re discussing whether it was Trayvon screaming is mind numbing. Blood curdling screams. Gunshot. Screaming stops. Trayvon DEAD!

    This bullshit discussion about whether it is GZ screaming is what sparks protests. My blood is at the boiling point!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Don’t worry about it, if it is gz screaming like that, the defense has given no reason for that to be happening. Thus the jurors might very likely conclude that gz was screaming to cover up his intention to kill, by creating a appearance of danger to himself that he cannot prove existed. Either way it goes against him!

  2. MedicineBear says:

    Hey, I’m trying to get a start time (“birth time”) for the beginning of the trial (Monday June 24, 2013 — after the jury selection) to create a mundane astrological chart for the trial.

    Intuitively, I keep wanting to set the start time at 8:30 am EDT even though the NBC stream coverage began at 9am, I believe.

    Can anyone tell me if they know if trial-related meetings began at 8:30?

    Thanks in advance!

  3. endlessummer76 says:

    Referencing the previous thread, I would like to thank the blog owner and moderator(s) for the welcome and also for providing a troll-free, well moderated blog. The level of vileness that permeates the comments on so many news sites and blogs make them, for me, unreadable. It is very comforting to have a site like this where we can express our views without having to put up with name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

    Referencing this post, I will be very surprised if the defendant does not testify. This is a person who grifted money for his defense by selling his autograph. That takes a tremendous ego, and the defendant seems to have enjoyed his notoriety.

  4. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Anyone have any uplifting songs?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Right now as I think about this trial and I am thinking:

      I’ve looked at the racial clouds and I am disturbed by all of the racism!

      I wish I could address this by changing the lyrics to:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I love this song!

  5. ay2z says:

    Tje state meeds tp ,ale sire tjeu have enough time as they ask a question and get their answer, that they are heard and give the jury a moment to absorb befoer moving on.

    Example: from John Guy’s opening, he said, about the first officer on the scene, that he didn’t follow s.o.p. The jurors may have had to think momentarily about the acronym as it was said quickly and Gun gontinued. It was an important point, he might have taken a econd to add ‘Standard Operating Procedures’. He knows, many can fiigure it out, but why loose a juror even for a few seconds while they do the figuring and then have to catch up.

    • Woow! says:

      Thank you professor.

      I think the jury knows George is guilty. I still have my reservations that someone snuck in on the jury that should not have been allowed.

      I hope that I am wrong.

      • Dee says:

        I have the same feeling that someone will stand strong on not convicting Zimmerman. I don’t know why, but I feel this. Probably, because the nation is so divided by this case, and I wonder why. Theirs person that can say this man is innocent for what he has done, because this kid was doing nothing but returning home from the store, which is the only way he could get there. He was walking in the rain because he didn’t have a car-like Zimmerman was fortunate enough to have.

        However, Zimmerman friend and mentor Frank Taafee thinks that all blacks should be escorted through his neighborhood if they want to go anywhere. And for him to say something like this, they should have checked him out because he was most likely a big influence on Zimmerman. And probably had a lot to play in with Zimmerman profiling of Trayvon.

  6. gbrbsb says:

    Does anyone remember exactly when it was disclosed that Trayvon’s earbuds were found in his ears? Was it during the State’s opening, or did one of the law enforcement officers or someone else testify to it? Another question, does anyone know approximate distance between where Trayvon lay shot and his phone, and do we know if the phone was still attached to the headphones ?

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    What feelings are all of you experiencing as we now look toward this week’s presentation by O’Mara?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am feeling that I need to rev up the prayer and support vibs I am sending to Sabrina and Tracy.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I am feeling like my mute button will see considerable use this week as I toggle between not listening to O’Mara and waiting for cross from the state.

  8. Woow! says:

    JN is presiding over CAC’s libel case

    Detailed Information for Case 2012CA006178

    Case Number: 2012CA006178 Judge: DEBRA S. NELSON
    Date Filed: 12/06/2012 Case Type: OTHER-LIBEL/SLANDER
    Plantiffs: Defendants:

  9. Woow! says:

    Detailed Information for Case 592012CF001792A
    Case Number: 592012CF001792A
    Judge: ALVA, MARLENE M
    Defendant Name: SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN
    DOB: 03/1987
    Proceeding: DOCKET SOUNDING Courtroom: 5C
    Court Date: 07-10-2013 Time: 09:00AM

    Shelly’s case was originally assigned to Judge Nels and will begin on Wednesday. Marlene Alva is now presiding over her case. Does anyone know anything about JA?

    • ay2z says:

      this happened some time ago, and the case is on hold until after this trial is over.

      Maybe the SEminole county website for the court, has a page with judge’s info. Think I saw something there about Judge Nelson, long time ago.

      • Xena says:

        I tried looking up the docket for the AIS suit against GZ and company filed in Orange County but was unable to find it. Lorna is representing GZ and company, but has been spending her time pouring them water at trial, so I suppose the AIS case is also stayed until after trial.

  10. smokeegyrl says:

    To take a child’s life
    to take a life from it’s mother
    who carried him for nine months
    who sustain his life
    one umbilical cord
    attached to her body
    to his body
    feeding him
    one life born
    one life begun
    17 years 11 days lived
    then it took
    one 29 year old man
    one gun
    one bullet
    one trigger
    one finger
    one pull
    one shot
    straight into the beating heart
    the once beating heart that was
    inside the mothers womb
    that beats no more
    The Nation mourns
    The killer scorns
    shouting self defense
    Others saying this doesn’t makes sense
    Shouting we want Justice

  11. Puck says:

    There’s a reason the straddling re-enactment wasn’t done in the state’s case-in-chief. They want to save it for the end, a final, “Come on, really? Do you really believe this is even physically possible?” to the jury that will just hammer it home once and for all. They can also show from what position the gun was fired by where they found the bullet casing (remember, Gilbreath deliberately pointed that out): had GZ been underneath, it would have been in the ground underneath or very near to Trayvon’s body. Instead, it was found further away, meaning it traveled through the air, which would be physically impossible for gunshot from beneath Trayvon. That alone is one thing, but the trajectory of the casing matches that of a Kel-Tec 9. The shot, then, could only have been fired from on top of, or front-to-back grabbing onto, Trayvon.


    • Tzar says:

      Remember Mantei’s summary-from the JOA response- of his impression of the straddling gun reach scenario, “I think that’s a pretty big physical impossibility”


  12. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Thank you for sharing this, lady2soothe.

    I hope Sybrina sees this poem…..very moving! *tears*

    Yes, as the poet grandmother says, “America is on trial”. And, it will continue to be on trial as long as the atmosphere exists that requires black parents to have to give their children the “talk.”

  13. lady2soothe says:

    Just found this on HP

    5 Fans
    1 hour ago ( 3:29 PM)

    As a mother and grandmother, this would have be my prayer if Trayvon was my son.

    A Grieving Mother’s Prayer

    In the mirror I see my face
    I see the pain I am dealing with today
    My sadness is in my eyes
    I must compose myself, so I can survive

    Where is your son they asked?
    In God’s arms taking a rest
    I cried out, “Return him to me”
    My arms grieve for where Trayvon use to be

    You know God the depth of my sorrow
    I need you to justify this horror
    You know God if Trayvon was white
    We would not be sitting under these courtroom’s lights.

    American is on trial
    This mind set is what makes me so sad
    Our children are pegged to be bad
    I need you to come and make things right
    You were there and know what is hid from sight
    I don’t want another mother to follow in my footsteps
    This is why I called for your help

    When angry people are given a right to kill
    A bull’s eye is placed on God’ Black children’s backs
    They taking out of your hands, My Lord Jesus, a full life to be lived
    Against You, Against You, Oh Lord, have they sin
    By writing laws to eliminate your children based on the color of their skin

    Let your justice be done

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      July 7, 2013 at 4:50 pm
      Thank you for sharing this, lady2soothe.

      I hope Sybrina sees this poem…..very moving! *tears*

      Yes, as the poet grandmother says, “America is on trial”. And, it will continue to be on trial as long as the atmosphere exists that requires black parents to have to give their children the “talk.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        As I recall, Don L. Lee wrote a poem that would be appropriate to post here. I am going to go look through my pamphlet collection of his works and the Haki anthologies to see if I can find it. I will be back with it if I am successful.

  14. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I don’t think O’Mara will even get gz to first base this week. GZ will never make it home.

  15. smokeegyrl says:

    They said Shellie’s trial will be after Fogen’s butterum her court date is Wednesday… so does that mean that this trial will be over on Tuesday. mmmmm … or is her court date just a formality and it will be delayed again?

    • colin black says:

      yup a continuance her other halfs constipated an wont let his shit flow.

      She lie has another down below problemo she will require a continunce for her case of perjury

      As her husband awawits his fate per the jurys decision.

      foggage is constipated shel lie is incontinent with imcopetent attorneys .

      Who should just say she lie your guil;ty of incostinance in the court you took the piss.

      An miss unlike your husbands lies at first yours did not go amiss

      So stop being incongious an admit your apart of this,

  16. newmediacounsel says:

    Hello Professor,

    I have a question that’s off topic, but related to the press coverage of the case, and its a broad one about meaning.

    Here’s the article:


    I won’t go through the trouble of quoting from it other than to say the legal analyst incorrectly states what the law is, it seems to me, in several instances. Just to give a taste, the writer states that a jury cannot convicted if they choose if they believe some part of Zimmerman’s claims are questionable. This is false on its face to me because if they choose to believe part is false, they can reasonably infer his story in general is false.

    My question is this: When the general public, who are not lawyers are expected to understand our system, what do you think can be done to provide them with an accurate description of what our legal system actually says and means?

    This is a broad question, but its one that’s been on my mind lately. There are so many areas in which meaning no longer seems to matter and people just seem to make up their own meaning to sell an article or a story or whatever.

    Do you think, as someone who has had to try a case under the public spotlight, there’s anyway to really give the public an understanding of what’s going on legally, or, for that matter politically?

    • cielo62 says:

      That article was SUCH a MOUNTAIN of stinking BULLSHIT! How convenient for him to totally NEGLECT ALL of the forensic evidence! The lack of DNA, the ballistics of the shot; I could just SCREAM in frustration!! Yeah, he gives himself an out “juries are unpredictable”.  Yeah, like they might be SMARTER than the author and actually PAY ATTENTION to all of the evidence!!

      I don’t know the answer to your question. I certainly didn’t know much which is why I ended up here.


      • newmediacounsel says:

        While the article is definitely a steaming pile, I wonder if the public understands what they are getting?

        None of us can know the eventual outcome,b ut this article basically tells them nothing to help them understand the outcome

  17. My Forehead Tho says:
    • Sabrina B. says:

      Like Mantei indicated, all that head banging, swinging, shimmying and shrieking and he manages to get a shot at point black range straight through the heart is next to impossible. Unless he was an expert marksman and he they have to take the time to steady themselves, aim and shoot. That in and of itself, is something I doubt even they have practiced while being physically assaulted and shrieking in fear for their lives.

    • MDH says:

      I found that site as I did a google search after concluding the debates at Daily Kos allowed for sheer idiocy to be posted as fact.

      When I used a toy gun to try to hit the target with someone mounting me, I found that my elbow had to be placed on my abdomen with forearm back and wrist twisted like a pretzel. IOW, a geometric impossibility. Logic tells us that a shooter would jam the gun in the side ribs and the bullet track would be up and across.

      Could you add the last picture showing the HSN reenactment with the toy gun?

      Am I crazy? Or does HSN prove his guilt?

      I mean the guy being shot is standing over the dufus with the toy gun in a position wherein he can not harm dufus in any possible way, yet dufus is now in a position to blow the guy to kingdom come.

      Another obvious question about the HSN picture.

      What would you do if you were standing over dufus?

      A) Say “your going to die MF”?

      B) Or shriek in terror?

      If this was not so tragic, it would be comedy in the way GZ gets defended.

    • Malisha says:

      I think Dr. Vince will be trying to make that image disobey the laws of physics. Also he will inject confusion and complexity into it when it’s simple: can’t be done. Wasn’t done.

    • cielo62 says:

      My Forehead~ Is this ignoramus actually saying that there was a shooter on the grassy knoll and that gz really ISN’T the gunman?? Damn, how many straight jackets will we need for this trial??


    • ay2z says:

      This angle thing is why fogen prepared the version about Trayvon cupping or curving his chest.

      BTW, anyone falling over, can easily take someone along with them if they grab to balance themselves, or have a hold already. Especially someone shorter and heavier, can bring the taller lighter person down quite easily if they are not prepared for it.

  18. ay2z says:

    Orlando Sentinel headlines a sotry on the front page, showing a big political election style handshake photo op between lawyer and client.

    Inside, however, is a story by Scott Maxwell, who ends his column with a comment about how taken aback he was with how ready people were to attack Rachel, based on their positions, pre-decided ink-blot type opinions on this case.


    • Malisha says:

      The article is obscured by a big impenetrable ad by OS to force you to register to get their paper for 99 cents or something. How can we get to read the text of his article?

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ sorry, but it’s for unlimited digital subscribers only. 😦


      • ay2z says:

        No, I think that’s what they want you to think. I’ve seen it too in the past, didn’t happen to me today but tmaybe I was early enough. I’m not a subscriber! Noway Nohow!

        Might be a ‘Sunday’ tactic, seems that’s when they do it.

      • ay2z says:

        I just tried the link I posted, and got thru ok, wasn’t caught in an ad. Maybe try it again.

  19. Malisha says:

    In recent self-defense cases in Florida, “who threw the first punch?” or even “who threw the really bad punch?” are not the deciding factor. The deciding factor is “who started the fight?” You start a fight when YOU choose to make a fight either happen or be likely to happen. Several signs:

    1. You bring a weapon when the other person has no weapon;
    2. You pre-identify the other person as wrong when there is nothing wrong with the other person’s conduct (“profiling” him);
    3. You pre-identify the other person as being where he does not belong while you are perfectly within your rights to do so (castle); or
    4. You hit, shove, or THREATEN him.

    If Fogen came up to Martin AFTER saying, “he ran,” it is very likely that all four circumstances above are fulfilled. If he testifies, he will likely try to defend his belief that Martin was “a suspect.” He will definitely say that Martin aggressed against HIM and scared HIM. But how believable will any of that be in light of his NEN call and his MMA training? Not so much.

  20. The George Zimmerman trial is the worst fear of every black family


    The Trayvon Martin case has been nothing short of heartbreak from the very beginning. Regardless of what anyone believes about Trayvon’s past, his innocence or George Zimmerman’s, the fact remains that a teenager is dead. I honestly didn’t think I would get emotionally broken up more than I was over the story that Rachel Jeantel’s friendship with Martin stemmed from the fact he was one of the only people who never picked on her. The story painted such a tragic picture of friendship and two people whose lives will never be the same.

    Then came this week’s testimonies and reactions from Trayvon Martin’s parents to leave me – and so much of America – floored. On Friday morning, Sybrina Fulton took the stand to talk about her son. As part of her testimony she had to identify her child’s screams in his finals seconds of life. Later in the day, Tracy Martin had to sit in court as the medical examiner, Dr Bao, explained how Trayvon died in severe pain and was alive for minutes after getting shot in the chest.

    Essentially, Friday – almost as much as the day Trayvon was shot – was any parent’s nightmare. Trayvon’s parents had to come face to face with their son’s murder while Fulton got questioned over whether or not her son actually deserved to get killed. Tracy had to sit in the same room as the man who shot his son in the chest, unable to retaliate or let the rage he has to be feeling out.

    Yes, this is the worst imaginable day for a parent. But it’s one the parents of an African-American child has been conditioned to accept as a possibility.

    • ay2z says:

      Trayvon could make a difference, and this jury had get it right this time for things to change.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thank you, SouthernGirl2, for posting this moving article.

      also from the article:

      It’s all just excruciating to watch. My heart breaks for Trayvon’s parents and watching them in court this week has brought all of my fears of being the parent of a Black male to light. We’ve watched them look at a picture of their son’s dead, bloody body sprawled out on the Florida pavement. We’ve watched Trayvon’s mother struggle to compose herself while hearing her son’s last screams.

      As my son gets older and out into the world, I’ll always have the memories of Trayvon and his parents. And the fear that one day, America will put us through what the Martin family is enduring.

    • tonydphotog says:

      My anxiety level was extremely high when Jahvaris was testifying. I wasn’t sure if Tracy would keep his cool while O’Mara was cross-examining Jahvaris.

      O’Mara is just as hateful of a person as CAC.

    • While non black families talk with their teen boys about high school & dating, AA families talk with their teen boys on how to act when dealing with police and how to stay alive. It’s a shame we have to prepare our boys for how other may perceive them. But it’s a talk that could very well be the difference between life and death for young AA boys.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        We white families with mixed kids and adopted kids have to do this too and it’s absolutely heartrending.

        • Rachael says:

          I cried so hard. I felt like the for the first time a wedge was placed between me and my son. Not that I’d have felt any better about it had I been a black mom telling it to my black son, but as a white mom telling it to my biracial son, it just made me feel a “difference” between us that I did not like. I can’t explain it, but I hated it and I feel like it was part of some – I’m not sure what to call them, but issues my son took into his teen years with him.

    • Sophia33 says:

      From one of my favorite television shows. 6:19 is that conversation that is a rite of passage for nearly every black boy.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ooh…….. when will it ever end?

        When will our society change so that the talk will not be necessary?

        Just when?

      • Rachael says:

        I don’t know what show this is, but I know the situation with the kid. 😥 😥 😥

  21. Malisha says:

    West admitted several times that Fogen approached Trayvon Martin, not the other way around.

    Mark O’Mara has now admitted that Trayvon was murdered.

    They slip up and tell the truth at times; Fogen does the same.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Yep. Like O’Mara slipped up and said:

      “What they’re doing is trying to make more out of it because they have, for the past year, put Trayvon Martin up on a pedestal where he shouldn’t have been, because he’s a regular 17-year-old kid and they knew all this information about him.”


      • Malisha says:

        See, they’re “trying to make more out of it” because it’s perfectly OK for an Afro-Peruvian white guy to kill a “regular 17-year-old kid.” No big deal. Don’t make so much out of it.

      • Beverly says:

        When did he say those words? He’s a man without a heart or a brain, it seems.

    • YQ says:

      This case is such a hype. gz will go to prison.

    • ay2z says:

      I’d be interested in him saying his client ‘murdered’ Trayvon, but simply can’t stomach watching this interview. I’ll take that he said it, but it’s no consequence, what he says or even blieves about his client.

      (btw, the Univision Dec interview, also laid the foundation for Hispanics watching that, about ‘the dog’, as alluded to in West’s opening. The dog = the reason to get the gun and keep it with them at all times. Not from a dog bite, or dog attack on a human, maybe not even a dog fight (as we heard in testimony from some neighbor, adding the idea that dog fights were common out in the back), but it was Shellie’s fear, again Shellies “fear”.)

      (BTW, ‘begs’ the question, How many threatening dogs wander the aisles of the Target grocery mega stores on a Sunday night????? 😉

      • Sabrina B. says:

        I’m with you. If I have to watch him suck those falsies back into his head any more than I have to, I will lose it.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Gyrl~ Thanks for posting (*puke* *retch*) — but thanks for posting!

      The “Murdered” quote is right after 5:00 minute mark — so you don’t have to watch it all (*puke* *retch*).

  22. Ty Flair says:

    Many fail to realize that fogen jacket was not zip up on that night he MURDER Trayvon.BDLR ask the expert could that blood on fogen shirt not jacket come from his jacket being open. Fogen want us to believe his jacket was zip all the way up where his gun could not be seen. How could a person get blood in the middle and on the side of the shirt if the jacket is zip up. Fogen had that jacket open where he could get to that gun easy. Just one more damn lie!

    • KA says:

      I agree….somehow the fact that he had many spots of blood all over his shirt, however his jacket was “zipped” seemed to get lost on everyone.

      I really think the closing will not only “tie” up the timeline and significance, but will make bombshell moments of clarity for the evidence already introduced thereby leaving no room for reasonable doubt.

    • Dave says:

      This guy thought it was suspicious that Trayvon was walking in the rain yet he got out of a warm, dry vehicle WITH HIS JACKET WIDE OPEN to wander around, supposedly looking for an address for no obvious reason.

  23. ay2z says:

    Thanks to the help from our great friends here, I found Prof’s article from Dec 12, 2012 that included the English translation transcript originally provided by the Spanish language Universion Network.

    Bringing this forward from Saturday, because what I expected to find, was (based on what she said in English on Piers Morgan etc) absence of comment as to whose voice it was by GladyZ, the first witness by the defense. But GladyZ DID indeed comment about the 911 tape screams.

    The defense may bring GladyZ back to talk more about her being a familial listener of the 911 recording of cries for help and screaming, and the defense may recall their expert, the one with the anaology about the telephone salesperson, as an example that voice recognition by a familial listener is ‘immediate’, whereas someone who has heard someone on the telephone before, may recognize that they have heard that voice before (salesman example) but may not recognize the speaker immediately.

    Observations from the defense case so far.

    1. GladyZ took the stand and was not asked by O’Mara when she first heard this recording, where she was, what she was doing, what her reaction was, had anyone told her about the 911 screams and words heard in the background, no context.

    O’Mara asked GladyZ something critical though. He asked GladyZ if, once he played the tape through for her one time, if she needed a second time to hear the tape, to just let him know before she answered.

    2. We know that the state deposed GladyZ, that Bernie asked the witness in court on Friday, ‘Have you hever heard your son scream or call for help?’ Answer: Blank…. no answer, but a clarification to interpret the meaning of the screams. (which is not helpful, we all, as human listeners, can interpret those screams instinctually. and may interpret the cries for help also, possibly in different ways).

    On re-cross, O’Mara asked if she had ever heard her son scream for his life before, and she did not answer yes or know, she did not even answer but sidestepped to say “Because it was my son.”

    This answer seemed to leave O’Mara with a blank look on his face.

    3. Jorge, GladyZ brother, was called next to the stand, we though as a familial listener who heard the 911 tape ‘out of the blue’ without any preparation ahead of time to know what he was about to hear, and he of course, identified with his military honesty, that he couldn’t help but say this was his nephew’s voice.

    Why was Uncle Jorge called to the stand? We might think it was to add a second familial listener, more the merrier. But no,, could be more to it than that.

    What is the defense up to?

    The defense may have kept GladyZ, the most important familial listener possible, the ‘mother’ of the defendant, to rebut the testimony of Sybrina Fulton to best advantage.

    As of Friday’s testimony, we only took away what we saw and heard from one mother at the beginning of the day, and another at the end of the day.


    By crafty design from early on (or luck) that GladyZ may be a ‘virgin familial listener’ to the 911 tape. The defense may have kept GladyZ from hearing the 911 tape ever, until we witnessed her listen for the first time, Friday in court

    The defense has their audio experts available to bring back, to repeat the definition of and value of, a familial listener, and this could put GladZ in the same position for the defense, as Sybrina was for the investigators, hearing the tape for the first time..

    The answer may liie (or lay), in the Univision interview statements that GladyZ made, alongside her son Jr.

    • ay2z says:

      Sources thanks to BlushedBrown for the Univision link and link to Prof’s article. Thanks Prof for your December article, which I have read for the first time this morning. (thought I had caught up pretty well when first coming here, but so much more in the ‘library archives’.

      Links are here:
      (don’t know how accurate the Univision transcriptionists are as translators, or whether they would differ from an interpreter under oath for court. Maybe they are only software translations and not human at all)

      blushedbrown says:
      July 6, 2013 at 4:31 pm

      I remembered a interview on a Spanish station and Leatherman had a post on it. The interview is in Spanish, but I also included the English transcript form the blog.


      http ://frederickleatherman.com/2012/12/12/the-gladys-and-robert-zimmerman-jr-show-on-univision/

    • ay2z says:

      This interview lays the foundation for the idea that GladZ knew about the 911 call, but was directed not to listen to TV. GlzdZ did have a lot of information from others, enough to state unequivocally, that Trayvon “hit you fiercely and bust your head open every time you tried to get up”.

      GladyZ knew about the neighbor seeing the fight “using what they call MMA style, mixed martial arts.” And she elaborates on the MMA, saying (again quote), “I had never seen that sport, but I saw it on YouTube and I was shocked at people getting hit so aggressively.”

      GladZ never said she heard the 911 tape, being ordered to keep away from watching the TV, but she does know about it, and probably knew about it for some time.

      GladZ stated (again quote of the English version Univision transcript):

      “…the only thing I can tell you is this: show the photo of my son like that, in color, and play the tape, that tape in which he asks for help, in what many witnesses say is my son’s voice. Even Trayvon Martin’s father, Mr. Tracy Martin, says that it is my son’s voice. :

      IF GladZ never heard the 911 tape, she had certainly heard all about it, heard influencial comments by others, about who the voice screaming was.

      Even with the most disinterested witness, this would provide a strong ‘bias’ in the preparation and suggestion for what the listener would hear on that very tape.

      Bernie, I hope, has his audio expert ready to testify about ‘Listener bias’, and that he will have that person in the wings ready early Monday morning, because GladyZ will be back…..

      • ay2z says:

        Note what GladyZ does NOT say:

        “… and play the tape, that tape in which he asks for help, in what many witnesses say is my son’s voice. …”

        Gladyz had her opinion firly in her mind that this was her son, and proven by others, that this was her son on the tape. And yet she NEVER says anything about hearing this for herself.

        Those who heard the Frye Hearing, might not get the significance of this, but from this Frye session, we learned about familial and bias in human listeners.

        This may have been the ultimate importance of Frye for the State, to not allow the defense to have a biased witness and claim she’s a first time familial listener too, just like Sybrina.

        Bernie can’t let that deception happen, GladyZ is no virgin listener, familial yes, a mother of the defendant, yes, but she is well aware and entrenched in the biased opinion by listening to others before she ever hears the tape on the stand in court.

        • ay2z says:

          edit mistake, ‘Those who did NOT hear the Frye Hearing, might not get the significance….”

        • Sabrina B. says:

          Good points. I think another thing that should be of note is just like members of a certain political party, if they are accusing you of something, the best way to beat them if to find the proof that it they who are doing exactly what they are accusing you of doing. They seem to tell on themselves in that way. I think your analysis point this out pretty clearly. Surprised that many others have not actually caught on to this tactic. I hope the prosecution is not among them.

    • ay2z says:

      GladyZ quote about her TV watching:

      …at the beginning I barely even watched TV. My husband and my doctors forbade me from watching TV. It has all been really traumatic, but now that I’ve seen how Trayvon Martin’s family’ lawyers have presented this case;

      and this is interesting… the attack on Crump, Jackson, but she now understands about Obama, as she says it’s ok now because:

      …they [Crump, Jackson, Trayvon’s family] fooled him too.

      “fooled Obama too?” (“too”?)

      The defense laid out in this Spanish speaking interivew, one that fewer of the pro Trayvon, non-Hispanic speakers will watch?

  24. MedicineBear says:

    Can time be added to fogen’s M2 sentence due to ARMED ROBBERY? He did steal Trayvon’s agonizing screams at gunpoint.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Good one! I agree.

    • Malisha says:

      He might have wanted that $40 for his groceries.
      Bill Maher suggested, considering Fogen’s weight gain, the prosecution needs to investigate the possibility that he killed Trayvon for his skittles.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Macabre humor a la Maher … but makes as much sense as what Fogen and his stalwarts would have us believe.

  25. Sophia33 says:

    Someone on HP pointed out something that I missed before. At 3:35 in this video, Zimmerman says, “After he hit my head on the concrete, HE yelled out for HELP”. This causes Serino to ask, “Who yelled out for help”. Then GZ says, “I did”. Freudian slip?

  26. KA says:

    Really interesting case involving Vincent Di Maio. In this one, he was called by the defense as their “expert” and ended up being the prosecution’s star witness.

    This prosecutor did her job and studied his books thoroughly. She ended up getting a huge “Perry Mason” moment in trial and it determined the entire case for her.

    Let’s hope Bernie is doing the same….great story of justice…


    • KA says:

      “The theory of Rudi’s defense was that Michael killed Cindy before Rudi arrived at the murder scene. To bolster this theory, the defense called Dr. Vincent DiMaio, a forensic pathologist, to testify that Cindy’s wounds (both bruises and knife wounds) were consistent with a single assailant. Dr. DiMaio also testified, on direct examination, that the assailant was probably right-handed. The prosecution further explored this on cross-examination and then called two witnesses — a documents analyst and Anke Dorn — who testified that Michael is left-handed and Rudi is right-handed. Instead of helping the defendant’s case, Dr. DiMaio’s testimony could have damaged it.”

  27. smokeegyrl says:

    This is off topic for a minute. Can y’all do me a favor and check out my son’s blog. I’m trying to transfer his blog’s to Word Press. But in the mean time. This is where I get my strength. He is my youngest son. I have 3. http://datsmybikepunk1.blogspot.com/2013/07/understanding-traumatic-brain-injury.html

  28. smokeegyrl says:

    I think he will and I believe O’Mara will encourage it while West will advice against it. O’Mara is a media hound, he loves the attention, Fogen not so much but he just can’t it get it together when he tells the story over and over again. I believe he is scripted by O’Mara one day and West another that is why the story changes from one day to another. I also believe that this killing has come during the time when NRA gun laws have come into place so this case became a game instead of one looking at a life was taken. Race pitted against one another, politics pitted against one another, laws being set to change, hatred, and bigotry because of this one case. People are mad because no-one is focusing on killings else where such as Chicago and those killings have not gone viral such as this. It is so bad in Chicago that have now a web site that track daily killings in Chicago. http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/ How sad is that? I do believe that this case will help how laws will change around the country to stop random killings by people who use these laws as an excuse and hide behind to kill others and get away with such as Fogen did with Trayvon Martin. That is why this case is so important. Okay, okay I got off topic here for a minute.

    Fogen will need to tell his story one more time. His life is on the line and one more time he will need to shimmy, wriggle his way out of this like he has always done in his life to get out of his troubles, it is what he does. As you see, he runs O’Mara and West by handing them notes and his own little side bars. He looks at them constantly and nods with them with when he agrees and disagrees with them. He is their boss, after all, it is his donations he is paying them with. Fogen is writing all the time, he is writing his own questions for them to ask the witnesses… Remember, he wanted to be a judge just like his daddy. Sick isn’t it. OH, he will testify alright. He can’t help himself. His not afraid of Bernie, are you kidding me? He has to have the last word because he has to be the one in control, remember he is a manipulator and if he can’t do it then he loses it so therefore he has to control the jurors and can’t let the State control this so he will testify. I wouldn’t be surprise if Fogen will write the closing for O’Mara to speak at the end of this trial.

  29. Judy A Vallejos says:

    I would be surprised if they did. Won’t be anything like the harassment they imposed on Rachel when they deposed her for what was it over 7 hours? Not to mention the nearly 7 hours of questioning harassment they imposed upon her during testimony.

    Crump will merely aggravate them LOL purposefully I hope LOL

  30. Malisha says:

    Dr. Vince from Tex can testify that Trayvon Martin probably had excited delirium from THC and that made him attack Fogen and scare him so badly he had to use deadly force. Jess sayin …

    I think Vince’s curriculum vitae is prolly filled with testimony on behalf of police officers who accidentally kill suspects they’re restraining or arresting or interrogating. Hmmm….

    • ks says:

      Heh! That should be interesting since JN has already ruled the THC stuff out. I’m sure they will try something though and DiMaio seems like a hired gun. I say let them go on because it gives the state more room during the rebuttal.

    • KA says:

      He is a gunshot and “death wound” expert. I would not discount him. However, I am hoping he will be a star witness for the State.

      Here is a great story about his testimony in another case where it looked like the defendant was about to get off, and the DEFENSE EXPERT DiMaio ended up saving the State’s case. This posting was done just a week or so ago.

      Great example of justice.


      • Malisha says:

        Oh maybe he will be testifying that the gunshot could have come from below Trayvon Martin while Fogen was being beaten into diapers.

      • Malisha says:

        WOW, the prosecutor in that case did her homework. That’s what it takes: homework. The defense lawyers in Fogen’s case have not been doing homework; they have been out there trying to drum up dirt on a dead kid and his family and friends and supporters. They have been doing everything but their homework. Homework that not even a dog would eat.

        Whatever Dr. Vince testifies to, it will not be able to change the actual evidence that has gone in already. It will, however, do something I believe will prevent Fogen from getting on the stand; it will try to make HIS clearly impossible version of the events seem somewhat less IMpossible. Problem is, though, that only John Good’s “rational thinking” and Fogen’s lies put Fogen underneath Trayvon at the time of the shot and neither makes the killing self-defense.

    • Jun says:

      I dont think the Vince guy will risk his freedom and career over Fogen

      The main factor is “the bulletholes in the sweatshirts do not align with the GSW and the trajectory is straight front to back, within intermediate range for the GSW, and the bulletholes in the sweaters of the victim show a contact shot

      He’s not gonna rationally be able to match the Fogen tale to the forensics and ballistics but if he does, he may as well flush his career and freedom down the toilet because all the other trials he testified at that led to conviction or otherwise, will likely be able to be brought up

      He’s also gotta rationally fit in Jean Sardyka’s testimony, along with Mona, Manalo’s wife, witness 3, Mary Cutcher, whom all place Fogen on top of Trayvon when he shot the kid and then just got up

      Because of the ballistics, the only scientific conclusion is Fogen either shot the kid while standing or on top of the victim, not Fogen’s tale because it is not possible

  31. vanlch says:

    Defense is calling Dr. Vincent DiMaio. Any thought professor? Can’t argue he wasn’t followed, no abrasions on dominant hand, and he’s dead!

    • Woow! says:

      You can expect Dr. DiMaio to have a surprise testimony as he did in the Phil Spector case. He has no problem lying his ass off in favor of the person he is the expert witness for. The prosecution team had better be ready for this joker.



    • boar_d_laze says:

      Defense primarily wants Dr. DiMaio for the proposition that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He will testify that the lack of trauma to the victim’s hands, as well as the lack of DNA and other trace evidence corroborating Mr. Zimmerman’s story is inconclusive and unimportant.

      There will be a bunch of other pathology stuff where he says the medical evidence supports the Defense’s story — or at least doesn’t support the Prosecution’s theory — but trauma, trace and DNA are the main things.

      If the fight occurred as Mr. Zimmerman claimed, it seems obvious that there would be signs of it on the victim’s body. Dr. DiMaio will say, “maybe not so obvious.” It’s part of a strategy of buttressing Mr. Zimmerman’s damaged credibility.

      You have to remember that there are very few facts in controversy in this case. The most important factual question is, “How did the fight start?” In terms of “materiality, no set of facts going to any other question comes close.

      The rest of the case is largely interpretation of facts going to Mr. Zimmerman’s “state of mind.”

      Keep your eye on the ball, and try to remember what a defense of “justification” is all about. If Mr. Zimmerman “provoked” the fight, he can’t then claim his use of force was justified self-defense — no matter how bad things got for him.


    • Thrace says:

      He was a defense witness for Drew Peterson, Phil Spector and Darlie Routier (she’s on death row). All who are in prison.

  32. Woow! says:

    MOM incorporated the prosecutions witnesses as their own (BDLR pointed this out at the 1st hearing when MOM complained about Shelly not being on his witness list)

    Most people (such as SPD) who were called were consertative in what they said on the stand; Jena Lauer, John, and Jon out right lied with their testimony. If MOM call any of these people and try to get them to say what he wants them to say, on cross BDLR is going to tear them a new one. I think with any witness other than CAC mother BDLR is not going to hold back on cross.

    I don’t see any doctor putting his reputation on the line to say CAC injuries were life threatening without being made a laughing stock of the medical community.

    If Taaffe is called to the stand, his testimony would only hurt CAC. Anything regarding that night would be hearsay on his part and not relevant. Also, that man is rotten to the core with his racism that I strongly belief that with his testimony, the door could be opened to bring in CAC past (racist) behavior b/c MOM will not be able to control him on the stand and his testimony would be dangerously close to letting in CAC email, etc. and BDLR on cross would be able to show CAC did a lot of racial profiling.

    Jena would be made a liar and shown to be a supportive friend of CAC and his family.

    I don’t know anything about a witness from Texas but anyone they bring from TX to testify would be ignorant, racist, stupid, and a whole lot of things. I live in TX and I know how low down and dirty so called experts can be here.

    Ex police office to talk about CAC being in reasonable danger … hearsay.

    Anyone the defense can bring forth will only have assumptions and personal opinions that will be hearsay.

    • Beverly says:

      That really is alittle broad about TEXans….inho.

      • Woow! says:

        No it is not and I stand by my opinion. I live in TX and work in the legal system and TX is ass backwards and racist if you are non white.

        • cielo62 says:

          Woow~ YEP! The “law” ion Houston scares the beejeesus out of me and I am WHITE!


          • Woow! says:

            ceilo62 I have a son that attends UH in the 3rd Ward and lives next to Reliant. I can tell you some stories about HPD. Although the 3rd Ward is a bad area not all of its residents are criminals but HPD treats them as such.

    • KA says:

      Except the guy in a respected forensic scientist that wrote a respected book on fatal wounds, forensics, and such. Dr. Bao brought up his book on gunshot wounds.

      I hope the State is doing their homework and reading those publications and papers multiple times over and then use the information to their advantage.

      It happened with this expert before. He was hired by the defense and ended up giving the Prosecutor a huge “Perry Mason” moment that won her the case….I know I posted this before today…but it is really good!


  33. My Forehead Tho says:

    So apparently O’Mara and West plan to depose Crump today at 2pm. Seeing as Crump has been available to be deposed for over a month, does anybody actually think the defense will actually go through with it this time?

    • KA says:

      They will to save donations, but they won’t call him. There is just no point to it.

      He was a private attorney acting on behalf of the parents to open an investigation. This is all stupid. He was not part of the investigation, he was trying to get enough nodding heads to start one. It is completely irrelevant to the proceedings as they stand now.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I am almost sure the defense will call Crump. West will insist on that. West is quite obsessed with Crump and Dee Dee. JN will almost certainly reject calling Crump as a witness during the trial on the ground that nothing Crump has to offer will in anyway aid the jury in decision making (process). The deposition transcript will show that.

    • Woow! says:

      MOM is limited in what he can ask Crump. This is a big charade. What could MOM ask Crump on the witness stand that could help his client and discredit Rachel….nada

      • Nef05 says:

        Agreed. In fact, by the terms of the DCA, I don’t see what they can ask him outside of what’s in the affidavit, they already saw.

        Waste of time and money (imho).

        • Thrace says:

          No kidding. If whatever they want to ask him is so important they wouldn’t have dragged their feet for a month in lining up a depo. Possibly it was done on purpose, they wanted to see what Rachel said before they questioned him. The jurors will have no idea what point the defense is trying to make if they call him to the stand anyway. Judge Nelson is not going to let the defense ramble on about unfounded tinfoil hat conspiracies.

      • Malisha says:

        Q: Mr. Crump, isn’t it true that in your zeal to make money by maliciously prosecuting the defendant, you found and coached a dishonest adult woman to make her pretend she had heard Trayvon Martin express fear of the accused citizen so that you could justify Trayvon Martin’s unwarranted savage attack upon an innocent neighborhood protector walking around in the rain?

        A: No.

        Q: [same question with more dependent clausses]

        A: No.

        Q: [same question with some independent clauses]

        A: I don’t understand your question.

        Q: Your Honor will you instruct the witness to answer?

        JN: Answer what?

        • KA says:

          Malisha – could be more devious than that….maybe asking him how he was involved in the case and/or why he was hired??

          Inferring that no one thought GZ was guilty so they had to hire an attorney to “manipulate” the system with racial overtones?

          I think that would be playing to some of the jurors previous thoughts that came out in selection…

          • cielo62 says:

            KA- maybe Bernie could mention the 2.3 million people who insisted in an arrest. I think that outweighs a handful of lazy racist cops!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • KA says:

        Unless he wants to highlight the fact he was hired because the police were not going to do anything about their son’s death??

        Kind of a sneaky way of inferring that the police did not want to take any action…

        (similar to the toxicology line of questioning)

  34. diary73 says:

    Does anyone have a clip of cameraman Jon’s testimony? At what point does he actually encounter GZ, while GZ was up walking or while he was still on top of Trayvon? What does GZ say to him? Does he confirm that GZ tells him not to call 911 because he had already called the police because he needed help to “restrain this guy,” as GZ stated.

    • KittySP says:

      @diary- he encounters GZ at the ‘T’…GZ claims Jon said he would call 911, but he tells him no, that he’s already called, and states he needs help to restrain Trayvon. Jon, says that he asks what happened, GZ replies with his “excited utterance” that Trayvon was beating him up and he had shot him in self defense, after which the the conversation ensues about the caliber of gun used.

      • KA says:

        So, Trayvon “had him on the ground” beating him at the “T” seconds before the gunshot according to John?

        I am guessing if he is recalled by the Defense, then he will be impeached by BLDR or admit he did not see the final act of the scuffle because his recollection is 40 ft away from the final shot.

        • KittySP says:

          @KA- diary question is about Jon (bloody head photo), not John Goode, whose house the shooting actually occurred…aka MMA John.

        • colin black says:

          I Know somehow I assumed he headed straight out the back porch an saw the imeadiate aftermath.

          Even although his statements explain he exited through the front as his porch was blocked for somr reason.

          He headed out his garage round the front an turned right up to the T..

          Where he encountered foggagge squatting ny the doggie poo recepticale APT.

          With a blackberry squashed to his badlt beated head???

          Trayvons body lay way in the distance an he had his back turned from it.

          Camera dude of course took photos an captured some of the afermath

          None of foggagges narrative is verified as true an ipso facto.

          He is a proven liar all of his version Is verified as fantasy .

          The only reason he is lieing as the truth sends him to jail for ever.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Let’s see, Jon’s story is that after the gunshot he went into his garage, picked up a flashlight and then headed north to the walkway.

        At the cut through/walkway, he turned west. As he rounded the corner he saw gz about 3 feet away and coming towards him.

        If so, then gz was asking Jon’s help to restrain a body laying dead in the grass and not moving, some 40 feet away?

        Jon says he did not see any flashlight lit on the ground near the T.

        So, after gz squats down for the picture of the back of his head, Jon heads south to take a picture of the body. Meanwhile gz probably turned the small flashlight on and dropped it, then followed Jon south to the body. By the time they get there Ofc. Smith arrives, some 3 minutes have passed since the gunshot. Not just seconds as we once believed. gz says that he had his gun in his hand for the whole 3 minutes and only put it away when Ofc. Smith arrived.

  35. KittySP says:

    Whether or not George takes the stand is anybody’s guess. MOM, Constantly and sarcastically makes the point of asking someone to use commonsense reasoning as it applies to various scenarios. If George were to take the stand some of the common sense questions I would like answered are:
    Prior to you pulling your gun and firing that fatal shot, you didn’t do anything to defend yourself? When you were first punched in the nose, knocked to the ground and mounted, your natural instinct wasn’t to grab your nose, or place your hands in front of your face to shield from the attack? While you were having your head repeatedly slammed against the concrete, your natural instinct wasn’t to grab hold of the attackers arms/hands? You lay absolutely motionless and did not attempt to use your hands to fight off your attacker? In your statements to police you say you forgot you had the gun. Is it your testimony here today, that you expect this court to believe the only time you thought to use your hands to defend yourself was…
    1) to grab hold of the attackers arm so he couldn’t get to the gun
    2) Then made sure your other hand was out of the way before pulling the trigger that fired the fatal shot?
    Your honor, I have no further questions…

    • EdgySF says:

      How was Fogen able to yell like that while simultaneously taking aim, steadying his arm, and firing his weapon? The screamer took no break or pauses,until the gun went off.

      The screaming stopped suddenly. Fogen was calm, and Trayvon had a tear on his cheek.

      How can anyone doubt who was screaming? Do they really see clothes on the butt naked emperor?

      Fogen’s injuries were minor. I think they resulted from the gun recoil.

      He was not scared. He was a man with a loaded gun, and a permit to use it.

      He trained 9 hours a week in MMA fighting. He was not scared.

      This was his turf.

      He knew all about SYG.

      He had buddies on the force.

      His dad was buddies with DA Wolfy.

      He was a cop wannabe who profiled an unknown black male in his community. When “the suspect” did not cooperate, the watchman put him down. So many white Floridians understand that. To them, blacks are dangerous and capable of anything.

      • Woow! says:

        “How was Fogen able to yell like that while simultaneously taking aim, steadying his arm, and firing his weapon? The screamer took no break or pauses,until the gun went off.”

        Don’t forget while having his mouth and nose covered by TM with all his weight.

      • colin black says:

        hE Wasn’t screaming he was cool as a cucumber .
        But don’t make the mistake an think he wasn’t scared .

        Cowards are always scared.

        That’s why hw went every where with a bullet ready to fire.

        Should he desire.

        His Fear of Blahck people of minorities?Mexicans whom, share a common Ancestry of Incas an S American Middle American heritage to be proud of he loathed.

        In essensse he loathed himself.

        He feared being exposed as a FRAUD a renter an non paying rent renter.

        He feared his truch being repossessed.

        He feared being shot commiting a fellonius assault against an innocent legal geust of a house owner in the Gated Comminty a Blahck owner whom belonged legally where he was squatting illegally.

        He was cool an prosessed all of the above .
        About to become on the record plus he dint have a pot to piss in finacieally.

        At any moment all this was going to come out with an assault with a deadly weapon/kidnap/illegal arrest/

        An two spot less boot toes toboot.

        An the added pressure of a stop watch he had to prosess an shoot in an instant as not only was he about to be exposed

        A COWARDS greteast fear is harm hurt injury an he was going to get shot an possably killed as soon as the first officer arrived.

        If anyone with a flashlight had turned up an Trayvon was still alive an screaming if foggagge even thought 50/50 iT Was a cop.

        He would have droped the gun an sprang up like a gazelle reaching for the sky to avoid being shot.

        So any flash light activity the barstwerd new wasn’t L E.


        As the State already stated the obvious in opening remarks.

        The man is nothing but fear its the only emotions his kind have.

      • KA says:

        His uncle was also on the police force…he had connections for sure.

        I do not think for a moment that his uncle was not called immediately after his parents found out.

        • cielo62 says:

          KA~ I had heard (so no link available) but that many police stations also have the same kind of “bad blood” feeling that they exhibit towards ALL outsiders, even if they are fellow police. Even calling the uncle might not have had any positive effect unless he had a friend on the Sanford PD. That’s probably why we haven’t heard much a bout this uncle. He’s not connected so he was unable to influence anything.


    • mgs710 says:

      Plus GZ was over 30 lbs heavier than TM and was taught how to defend himself…other than with a gun.

  36. Judy A Vallejos says:

    O imsodumb wants to blame anyone but the person accountable for this

    Part of some crazy appeal for later maybe?

  37. Judy A Vallejos says:

    Which leaves me to the question, and I may be a bit ahead here but how long do you think the jury will be out? Anyone?

    • Malisha says:

      Too many variables in that equation (at least six) to even venture a guess. But the equation is:

      Amount of Evidence PLUS intelligence and life experience of jurors TIMES prejudices of jurors MINUS some amount of confusion equals SOMETHING.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        This should take the jury about 3 hours to decide. I understand that’s how long it takes to fill out the forms. The jury no longer takes Omar or West seriously, Thus they believe that Omar and West are simply making things up that are “likely”, whether they are possible or truthful is something he does not care to consider.

    • Rachael says:

      Probably a while. They seem like they will go over the evidence very thoroughly.

  38. KA says:

    Screams are common sense…

    1) ends abruptly at shot (which we all know)
    2) NO change in volume except that they got louder and more desperate..this morning I tried keep my tone while pinching my nose and covering my mouth. There would not just be a “muffled sound” but it would probably not be picked up by the 911 call. I am hoping the State will do that little demonstration for the jury
    3) He had the gun out obviously before the shot rang off, no change in screaming even with a “aimed” loaded gun.
    4) a “shuffling” of movement and “punches” would change the tone of the scream. It didn’t
    5) ANYONE listening that had no opinion or knowledge of the case would ASSUME the screams were from the person shot. Everything points to it.

    Why is this even a debate in the media. They seem to think that only the most “credible” mother will “win” the scream discussion. I sit there and wonder if honestly, they have any common sense and logic. The jury heard the interview with Serino where he specifically asked why, if he was being smothered, did the scream not reflect that…..it should be pounded by the State at redirect or rebuttal….punctuated at gunshot …no muffled sounds (or any sounds, the “talk” of bystanders was not picked up, smothered screams should not as well )

    This scream discussion bothers me. It seems people have had their brains removed when they listen to it.

  39. Judy A Vallejos says:

    wow the low has hit the lowest….

    I just watched the request for acquittal part of the trial.

    O imsodumb really just blamed officer Smith for Trayvon’s death?

    Does that make the SPD accountable and responsible and liable for the suffering and pain that the Martin family are going through?

    Unbelievable….I so hope the jury takes less than a hot second in hell to convict.

    • Woow! says:

      I be officer Smith is wishing he would have told the whole truth when he was on stand since his buddy CAC attorney just threw him under the bus.

  40. Jasmine says:

    I wanted to say something about Fogen’s lack of remorse. I am not sure if anyone remembers a case, I believe out of Texas or Arizona, where a man found another man raping his 6 yr. old daughter. He ended up beating the man to death but he called 911 as the man lay dying. He was trying to get help for him. He even wanted to drive this man to the ER himself. Now having been a witness to a rape as a child I can understand the anger that comes with that. I was a child and could do nothing, let alone beat someone to death. This man did not mean to take it so far and tried to get help for him. Now why didn’t Fogen react in such a manner. That is what puzzles me. I cannot see myself helping anyone who I know raped a child.

    • KA says:

      But killing someone is tough. Police officers and veterans have a really hard time with it even when it is justified and expected.

      If someone was trying to rape my child, I would be furious and angry, but if they were at the point of death, I would try to save them. I really think most people would.

      We were not designed to kill each other. I think causing death to someone does significant mental damage, and just as our bodies do everything they can to protect themselves, our minds do to.

      The only exception to this is when there is something wrong prior to the event. If we saw someone who thought seeing death or killing was pleasurable, we would institutionalize them as they are a threat to society.

      People who show no psychological or mental remorse for a killing (justified or not) have other problems.

      I know it seems we could kill our own child’s killer or take some pleasure in making them suffer, but really, in the situation, we would probably all (I mean healthy people) try to save that man’s life just as that father did.

      It is very telling of the psychological issues GZ has, just as it did not Jodi Arias. His anger and frustration (and bias) killed Trayvon no different than Jodi’s jealousy and anger killed Trent (I think that is what his name is). Both have significant personality disorders or mental disorders to even get to that point without expressed or shown remorse.

      • KA says:

        I believe wickedness (finding pleasure in hurting others) and evil (the carrying out of harm due to wickedness) are both mental issues and are not part of our born psyche.

        I know many abused and neglected children that seek to harm others and themselves. It is a result of mental sufferings at the hands of others. I truly believe none would be that way if they had a nurturing childhood and mental stability .

        • Malisha says:

          They identify with the aggressor during childhood because they lack power, they crave power, and only the abusers have power. It’s a lesson they learn as they grow up in a household where there is abuse. Not all children learn that. I have met kids who have grown up in abusive households who crave the power to STOP abuse, not to perpetrate it. Each of us is different. But it is a common phenomenon among psychopaths that they were horribly abused as children. Not necessary and not sufficient, but it’s often there.

          • KA says:

            Very very true…children all react differently. Some are victims, some are aggressors, some overcompensate in an area to be “unlike” the abusers in some other way (maybe education, occupation), some feel extreme empathy for others and become advocates, some find healing. No one gets out unscathed.

            My point in the discussion is, if you enjoy the “kill” of another human, justified or not, there are some significant issues there that reared well before the trigger was pulled.

      • Jasmine says:

        You are so right. We are not here to take a life and a reasonable person would not do so if we could avoid it. Fogen just doesn’t care and that is scary in that he would do it again if he is allowed to.

  41. degraveegmailcom says:

    Bettykath is right in that the also documented times of the end of RJs last call with Trayvon Martin and the time of the gunshot with zero chance of survival should be in that list.
    That is a relevant timeline.

  42. colin black says:

    Nef05 says:

    July 7, 2013 at 10:11 am



    colin black says:

    July 7, 2013 at 11:27 am

    There is no cliqe nor any mystique when like minds meet.

    No need to be discreet when a pheonmia like foggage forces us to greet…=cry.

    In here there are no elete just orginary folks that greet each day as a blessing a treat.

    People not sheeple whom when injustice they meet will use there words as feet to march .

    An fight for the right for all to walk in the night in the sun in the rain .

    An should never feel pain inflicted an TORTURE languge so profane ..

    Inflicted by an empty insane foggagge so green so sparse an so mean.

    A hollow pointless empty visage that chameleon like reflects an changes the texture of his lies.

    An often takes DEEP SIGHS..to mimick he cares that A CHILD DIED.

    An he lied an tried to make the police accept this CHILD WAS SUSPECT.

    Although suspect of what he new nought no matter how long he thought.

    He used his eyes to look around an environment he had found a predeter on the pound

    Looking for a VICTIM with a chambered live round.


    An ended up on the ground dead frorm tha live round .

    Also now under the ground because foggagges mind is unsound.

    This foggagge so vain that despite of the pain he inflicted again an again.

    Took our LORDS NAME IN VAIN to justify his disdain.

    R I P Trayvon Benjim Martin….Times a comeing an there an Auld Scots saying

    Whats for you shall not go by you.

    An Punishment is whats comeing for foggage .

    No penance no redemption both those emotions an endevours to attain them are beyond this self confesed full of excrement constipated anall retentive personalty Ive ever seen or heard.

    This foggagge creature is so annal he doesn’t even want to part with a penny or an emotion or even his own solid waste produce.

    He wants to keep hold off………………………….


    Everyones part of the in crowd at this site
    Even the outies are innies an vicea vera…

    People being belittled or profiled as unimportant is the biggest no no at this site.

    Its why I love it .

    I might go off on one a rant now an agin but I respect every ones point of view .
    This is no elitist one opinion my way or the

    The Prof an Crane tolerate everyone just about even me.

    An as Oscar Wilde once said I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have moi as a member.

  43. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Leatherheads.
    I’ve been lurking this morning. I don’t really have anything to contribute in terms of speculation for tomorrow, but I will say that this blog site has, overall, impressed me with not only the intelligence and thoughtful comments but with a general kindness I’ve missed for a long time at the site where I used to comment.
    I’ve only read one comment here where my eyebrows went up a little bit, and I thought at the time, Well, we all have our moments, I guess.
    Operacarla gets the credit for Leatherheads, as far as I know.

    • KA says:

      I have been so impressed with the people on this site. It seems the logical discussion, intelligence, and even education level is significantly higher on this blog than any other news or FB site.

      Professor Leatherman has definitely set the tone here at a much higher bar than other “discussion” sites.

      If I were a media talking head, I would come here to get a perspective on the case.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        But the Talking Heads already have their perspectives – Rating Points! And, thus it has been ever so.

  44. RobertSF says:

    The defense has the timeline graphic here.

    The times seem accurate but include a lot of extraneous stuff that’s not pertinent. In my opinion, these are the relevant times. By now I know them by heart.

    7:11:48 – Zimmerman starts running from truck.
    7:12:08 – Sounds indicate Zimmerman slows down to a walk.
    7:13:39 – Call to NEN ends.
    7:16:11 – First 911 call reporting a disturbance comes in.

    Those are documented times. To them I would add the estimated time when the altercation started. I believe Jayne Surdyka was the first 911 caller and that she testified she called 911 immediately upon hearing the loud voices. Assuming this took 30 seconds, that puts the start of the altercation at 7:15:41.

    I just wish the prosecution had put this timeline up for the jury. I realize, however, that lawyers can’t testify. They have to find a relevant witness to explain or even just tell the evidence to the jury.

    What will happen if Monday the defense simply rests its case first thing in the morning? The only thing left for the prosecution will be closing statements, right?

    • Jun says:

      No, the state has rebuttal. Nothing the defense lawyers say is evidence and is pure speculation, therefore their timeline does not matter because they have no pieces of evidence to support their assertion as to the claims. They may be able to use it in closing. The state has a timelime that has been setup by the evidence pieces and is backed up by it. The defense timeline is backed up by everything the lawyers say and nothing they say is evidence, so it means nothing and will be struck out.

      • Puck says:

        And yet I can’t wait to see what the defense’s bogus timeline shows. In fact, I anticipate much of their case will be laughable in the LOL sense.

        • bettykath says:

          If the timeline is the one at gzlegal, it is factual according to evidence but it is misleading due to the “breaks” in the line. Minutes are depicted in a 10 second space. This picture helps them to show that the attack started immediately after the nen call ended. It’s a misleading trick, but factually accurate. The state needs to counter this by showing a complete picture.

          • Jun says:

            JMO but the major difference is that Fogen gang’s timeline, is supported by everything Omara or West says, and everything they say is not evidence LOL which is why the timeline is bogus

            The state on the other hand can say

            “This timeline and area on the map is supported by the testimony and evidence via….”

            The defense, their timeline is based on everything they say, and that is what it is, and none of the evidence or witnesses have testifed that they saw or heard anything of a confrontation at the T and then shifting to the spot…. the only witnesses to the confrontation, is Jean Sardyka, Selene, Witness 2, Rachel… and they all point to it starting south and heading north and then stopping about 60 feet south of the T, on the grass, where they were standing… the defense has nothing to support their contention

      • KA says:

        The rebuttal can already happen about the ID of the screams. That is what the defense covered already if they decide to rest…so that is fair game for rebuttal.

        I think bringing out the circumstances of the scream (ie punctuated by gunshot, not muffled from smothering, “blood in his throat”, only increased volume and desperation etc) basically eliminate GZ from the scream. That may be all they need to do on rebuttal to convince the jury that it could only be Trayvon was screaming for his life….or what GZ said about the injuries and situation of the fight was all a lie…

        Neither is favorable for any acquittal…

    • Puck says:

      The timeline would be published and explained to the jury during closing arguments. All of the 911 calls were entered into evidence on the first day, so they can proceed to use the times of those calls. I assume they would do this during their closing, which is their chance to explain this kind of material. You don’t need an expert to prepare and explain a timeline, so the lawyers can do that.

      Since the defense has put on a case, once it rests the prosecution has a rebuttal, but I believe what they can do here is limited to rebutting what the defense presented in its case. Then come the closing statements, and the state goes last. So, as I’ve been saying, the state has three more opportunities to continue making its case and tying it all together, and I would think they have those strategies ready to deploy (and tweak as necessary).

    • bettykath says:

      We know when the altercation started, immediately preceding the end of Rachel’s call.

      • Puck says:

        Yup. The last thing Rachel heard was “get off, get off” — had she heard more, such as Fogen interrogating Trayvon (as many have suggested, e.g. “Who’s committing the burgaries? “I don’t know!”) or “I’m begging you” (which happened soon into the altercation, which Rachel heard as starting with a bump of the phone microphone followed by the sound of wrestling in the wet grass) she would have said so. So this thing escalated to GZ’s having Trayvon in a painful grip (as many here have hypothesized, and I agree with this) within seconds.

  45. RobertSF says:

    Argh. I’ve been arguing with some hardcore Zimmerman supporters over at Huffington Post. Their argument comes down to this: prove that Trayvon Martin didn’t sucker punch George Zimmerman; if that can’t be proven, the jury must acquit.

    That whole thing about depraved mind is irrelevant, they say, because this is a self-defense case. And, they continue, Florida is a special case state where the defendant only needs to claim self-defense, and he can then kick back with a bag of popcorn and watch the prosecution try to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant didn’t act in self-defense.

    Is that true? That would make Florida a place where you can commit the perfect crime.

    • Jun says:


      It was explained by Mantei as well

      Self defense in Florida is what is known as an affirmative defense, and to properly raise an affirmative defense, the defense team has to present evidence to support their affirmative defense, in order to get a jury instruction on it, and they will have to present evidence of it to support their claim and then convince a jury

      If it is properly raised, then the prosecution has to rebut their claims and disprove the claims then

      The only person who claimed to have been sucker punching happening is Omara, and nothing he says is evidence anyways, and besides that, all the witnesses refute the defendant’s claims anyways and the forensics refute the defendant’s claims and the defendant refutes his own claims

      The jury is not required to believe anything the defendant says, the jury is simply supposed to be objective and impartial and follow the legal instructions on the case, as members of the community as People Of Florida

      I highly doubt any woman wants to live in a “perfect murder” place as that affects their community and in the end, affects them

      Since this is not a whodunnit, there is some burden on the defense at this point since it is an affirmative defense called self defense claim

      Also, since Trayvon also has a right to SYG, even if he did hit Fogen, he could be found perfectly justified in doing so

      What the Fogenites are are simply biased against the victim and want a prejudicial environment for the victim, when that would be against a fair trial

    • Tzar says:

      No, just watch Mantei’s argument against JOA

      • Puck says:

        Mantei’s JOA argument was a compelling, accessible, and effective oration. As I’ve been saying, he’s teacher-like, even professorial, in his delivery. I hope he does the closing, but even if not, the same sort of approach of “teaching” the jury the evidence and the state’s theory will go a long way toward a conviction on murder 2 (over manslaughter, even). The same appeals to common sense (which Mantei brilliantly backed up with case law and the state’s evidence) need to be made to the jury.

    • MDH says:

      Statements by a proven liar have no probative value.

      So why must the state disprove that which has no basis in fact?

      Ask them what basis beyond one of about 10 GZ tales reasonably indicates there was a sucker punch.

      The testimony taken as a whole proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a struggle.

      The blood flow on GZ proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the blow by an object or hand was late in the struggle.

      GZ did say he was down on his back for a significant period of time, did he not?

      Why is are there no blood trails from the horrific { I can not help with the sarcasm } punctuate nose tip wounds down along the side of GZ face. All I see in the near thee to death photo {more sarcasm} is blood that drips straight down to the lips and chin as gravity would pull, if GZ was in an upright position while bleeding.

      Tell them that gravity has no reason to lie vs a guy facing 20 to life.

      • KA says:

        I agree on blood flow, but also no grass stuck to the wound, no dirt, no gravel, no worms (HA! had to throw that in, FL always seem to have massive amounts of worms on their sidewalks after a rain)…

        If he was on his back when he got the injury, there would be grass stuck in the blood at a minimum. The blood was red and clean. It is not even smeared a small amount…so

        logically, the injury happened after he was OFF the ground or he was up off the ground seconds afterwards before the injury bled.

        I have to say, I do not think those blown up color pictures are helping the defense. It is clear to see the clean blood flows and the striking absence of ANY debris. That would NOT be consistent with a head bang or an injury while on the ground…

        I think he picked at a scratch (that he got while falling in the scuffle) to make them bleed like that AFTER the shot.

        Funny how he goes from “wiping blood from his eyes to see” to not knowing if he was bleeding at all….

    • chi1224 says:

      Ask them WHY would Trayvon use his LEFT hand to punch Fogen when he was right handed?? The answer is simple- Fogen was restraining his right hand. When you are being restrained it is NOT a “sucker punch”…
      ps- I don’t know how you stomach arguing with Fogen supporters. They make me want to vomit. I can’t subject myself to it.

    • EdgySF says:

      The State did prove Trayvon did not sucker punch Fogen:

      – TM had no offensive injuries

      – Rachel heard Fogen confront the boy, who yelled why are you following me

      – Fogen provided three different versions: the kid jumped out of the bushes, came out of nowhere, or came from “over there” in front of him on the sidewalk.

      – Fogen’s injuries were not life threatening. You can’t kill someone for punching you anyway…especially when you’re the aggressor.

      Also, TM demonstrated that he was not in the mindset to fight at 7-11, when he ran away from Fogen and tried to lose him, and when he asked Rachel if halftime was done yet.

    • Malisha says:

      Trayvon had the right to defend himself. Only in that regard is this a self-defense case. Remember what Bao said? He had recently seen a REAL self-defense case.

      • Malisha says:

        I’ll tell you something else. I’m white and I’ve got a white kid. If I lived in Florida and Fogen got off, I would never let my white kid out of the house again. I’d be worried that the big case was coming where an armed and arrogant vigilante decided to kill my WHITE kid and then the case against HIM or HER would be dismissed based on State v. Zimmerman. I’d be scared that ANYBODY could now kill my kid and just blatantly lie about it all and if my kid had resisted in any way, he’d be blamed. So I’d presume that if that happened, there’d be a big uproar saying, in effect, “If you can kill an African American kid and skate like that, it’s only fair you can also kill a white kid and skate too,” and not only would my kid be dead, but the rest of the judicial system in this country, which has been limping along hobbled like crazy since the Dred Scott decision, would be dead and worth being dead because the “life interest” = zero.

        So nobody should take this case to mean less than it does mean. It means either we are all in grave danger or it means you’re really not allowed to target and murder people willy effin nilly, period.

        • MedicineBear says:

          If fogen were to get off, he would again be able to legally carry a concealed weapon loaded with a hollow point in the chamber and he, Taafy, Oysterman, and fogen wanabes would be back to making their life-and-death judgments about our children and our pets.

          • KA says:

            I agree, if GZ “gets off”, he will own a firearm again and he will shoot someone else….

            We will be here again. I hope the mothers on the jury realize this. I SURELY would not want him living in my neighborhood.

            I think the fact that the HOA settled and did not stall the end of this trial for that decision is telling…

    • ks says:


      That’s silly claim by the GZnuts. Even if it was the case, the idea that a sucker punch justifies shooting someone is nonsense especially when it’s been amply shown that the person who was supposedly sucker punched, chased his victim who was running away from him.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Yeah, I was arguing with them yesterday on that very issue. And no what they say is not true.

    • DruDo says:

      I stopped going to HP because you just can’t argue with willful ignorance. And, Florida is not on my list for any future visits.


      • Christopher Charles says:

        I’m surprised there has not been a national call to boycott Florida. I’m sure the tourism industry that dominates the state is concerned that a boycott would have dire consequences.

    • sadlyyes says:

      the dispatcher told him,DONT follow TM,the police were on the way,imo,after that fogan was WILLFULLY disobeying police protocol,and therefore gives up the right to self defense.because he had a hollow point bullet in the chamber,he felt he had the upper hand imo

  46. SearchingMind says:

    Mantei’s Goodies: depraved mind exposed


    Gibbs’s theory of defense was that he was impaired, and the shooting was an accident,occurring as he fell or was pulled away. The jury rejected the accident theory and convicted him of second degree murder. Gibbs argues the trial court erred when it denied his motion for judgment of acquittal because the state failed to prove the depraved mind element of second degree murder. Second degree murder is “[t]he unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.” § 782.04(2), Fla. Stat. (2000).


    “Pointing a loaded gun at the head of the victim and then firing has frequently been held to be an
    act “imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life.” See Keltner v. State, 650 So. 2d 1066, 1067 (Fla. 2d DCA 1995) (finding the act of pointing loaded weapon in direction of someone and firing is imminently dangerous and evinces a depraved mind); Presley v. State, 499 So. 2d 64 (Fla. 1st DCA 1986) (finding act of approaching vehicle, taking out gun, and shooting into vehicle window supported second degree murder conviction); Dellinger v. State , 495 So. 2d 197 (Fla. 5th DCA 1986) (finding act of pointing rifle at wife without knowing whether it was loaded and pulling trigger was sufficient to demonstrate depraved mind); Edwards v. State , 302 So. 2d 479, 480-81 (Fla. 3d DCA 1974) (finding act of pointing loaded gun at victim and then firing is imminently
    dangerous to human life and evinces a depraved mind); (…).”

    Now, any “laywyer” who tells you that the State has not proven “depraved mind” in the George Zimmerman case, you must – in no uncertain terms – tell to go back to law school!

    • “Now, any “laywyer” who tells you that the State has not proven “depraved mind” in the George Zimmerman case, you must – in no uncertain terms – tell to go back to law school!”


    • parrot says:

      Thank you for your hard work, Searching. Always enjoy your posts.

    • MDH says:

      Thank you for that case law backing a point that should be entirely obvious.

      For the life of me, I fail to see how the state has not proved second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

      That leaves self-defense.

      GZ’s self defense rests on his veracity.

      The fact that this blog and others has come up with outright lies and inconsistent statements that, if itemized, might rival War and Peace ought to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is a liar and, as such, anything he says has zero probative value.

      The defense is trying to play the trick of equating the realm of possibility with reasonable doubt.

    • Malisha says:

      Thanks much much, SM.

      Defense lawyers want every single moment of Fogen’s behavior to be separated from all other moments and evaluated separately so that it made a series of stills:

      Good neighbor (“GN”) phones police
      GN goes in same direction as “the suspect”
      GN innocently loses his cell phone somewhere on his person
      GN innocently says he does not have a problem
      GN innocently sustains devastating punch to nose that produces “very insignificant” injury because … well because
      GN innocently gets beaten up without discernible signs either of great bodily harm OR of defensive wounds
      GN innocently pulls loaded gun (“GUN”) for which GN has permit
      GN innocently points GUN at the suspect
      GUN puts one hollowpoint bullet into the suspect but
      GN innocently doesn’t realize that GUN actually did that

      I think GN and GUN are gonna tank (“GT”)
      The formula is:

      GN + GUN = GT

      It’s not rocket science (“RS”).

    • Nef05 says:

      Thank you, SM. Exceptional post.

    • Tzar says:

      parrot says:
      July 7, 2013 at 11:10 am

      Thank you for your hard work, Searching. Always enjoy your posts

      I am gonna cosign that for truth

  47. Elizabeth says:

    On the other side of the equation is the mother of a dead child who would not claim the killers screams as that of her child.

    What do you mean?

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      If Sybrina believed that was Zimmerman she would not sit and look woefully saddened knowing she is listening to George Zimmerman’s voice. She would say she doesn’t know and explore other avenues to convince people of Zimmerman’s guilt but she would not superimpose her child’s voice into that of his killer. That is just too much.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        All of us knew from the moment we heard the tape that it was a child screaming and Zimmerman admitted the screams belonged to Martin by saying that didn’t sound like him when he was supposedly the only one screaming. He really thought he was busted when Serino played those screams and Serino should rot in hell for letting him off the hook by saying, ” that’s you screaming.”

        • Malisha says:

          He never realized screams were recorded; he was not even probably aware of the screams as human utterances, just as annoying noise interfering with him executing his god-given plan. He said he was yelling “help me help me” but he never said he had screamed in terror. He’s going to be convicted. THEN he will scream, both in rage (“They can’t do this to me”) and in terror (“Nooooooooo”).

          • MedicineBear says:

            Can’t wait for his new BBFF Bubba to embrace him lovingly and murmur, “C’mon Squealy (prison nickname) lemme hear you scream like a little girl when I pull out my big gun!”

          • racerrodig says:

            Not to mention “I’m beggggiinngg youuuuuuu”

            I hope that haunts him for his entire life.

  48. Judy75201 says:

    Remember how fogen always started his narrative on his NEN calls with “There’ve been some burglaries in my neighborhood…”?

    His uncle did the same thing when he testified. He carefully laid the groundwork upon which his story “should” be perceived as unassailable.

    Interesting that they both exhibit the identical manipulative strategy.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Genetic pathology.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Like uncle, like killer? Or was Bernie on target with the two “son” references?

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      The jurors are not stupid. George Zimmerman is a proven liar. His uncle cannot bamboozle the jury into thinking that because he believes he is a voice recognition expert and an honest person that means Zimmerman is no longer a liar.

      On the other side of the equation is the mother of a dead child who would not claim the killers screams as that of her child.

      His big Sponge Bob Squarepants head ass uncle can have several seats.

      • Puck says:

        ..and that while distracted while working on the computer, hearing someone out of all the people in the world screaming on TV, he knew it was GZ. Really? I mean, really?

        • KA says:

          I think the Defense will parade a host of family members and friends to do the “familiar voice” thing, which I suspect BLDR could care less. It might even be to his advantage….

          If the State can make the circumstances surrounding the scream only point to Trayvon and effectively eliminate GZ, every person they paraded up will look like they have an agenda in their testimony (that is not truth) and any answers they gave will be devalued.

          • Puck says:

            Normally, I’d go back to the defense’s opening statement to get a better idea of what their case might be, but I would really rather not, since it was delivered by Westingtime. Also, whatever strategy they had going into the trial surely must have changed following the prosecution’s tricks during their case (e.g. publishing all of GZ’s bullshit).

      • Nef05 says:

        I don’t believe him for a minute. As you mentioned – he can have a whole arena full of seats!

    • Malisha says:

      It’s not like that family has a big repertoire.

      Fogenpop destroyed himself as a witness by writing that book. That makes me laugh my a55 off. 😆

    • SearchingMind says:

      Judy, those NEN-calls also show that GZ called the cops exclusively on AA juveniles. In the Hannity interview however, GZ claimed that those same calls include “Latinos” and “Whites”. GZ’s lie demonstrates – at least to me – that he knew he was profiling, among others, based on race and that such was wrong. Why else would he lie?

      • KA says:

        Great point.

        Last year, I listened to those calls in succession as the jury did. I had a strong reaction to it as it was obvious that he ONLY called and considered suspicious young black males.

        You can claim you are not profiling until you are blue in the face, but when your actions statistically show otherwise, there is no other conclusion to come to.

  49. EdgySF says:

    Has the State demonstrated that Fogen’s vitals were normal, and that the first witness on the scene described him as “calm, cool & collected?”

    That’s the physical proof that he was not the screamer. If anyone needs physical evidence, it exists.

    One cannot desperately scream for 45 seconds, be forced to have to shoot someone to death for one’s own life, and then instantly have normal vitals.

    Fogen is a psychopath. At this point, I am absolutely convinced that even the out of touch masses now see him as guilty of manslaughter. If he walks, I will need some serious help.

    I live in the area and am so glad the world is shining a light on us. This totally would have been swept under the rug if it weren’t for the national (international) outrage. I fear that if he walks, nothing will change. But if he’s found guilty, everything will change.

    Gladys should be ashamed of herself.

    So should Stutzman. She was a mouthpiece for the defense, when she should have been an honest broker. If Fogen is legally declared a murderer, maybe she will reevaluate her methodology…and report the truth and not crap.

    • Trained Observer says:

      “If he walks, I will need some serious help.” — EdgySF

      Won’t we all.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      His demeanor afterwards definitely speaks to the depravity of his mind. Afterall, it is his claim that he only fired the shot because he had to and that means he would feel sorry that Martin had placed him in a position to feel as though he had to pull the trigger. As such, he would feel no malice towards someone he was FORCED to shoot, indeed he would be immediately broken up about it. He understands that that is how he should react if he were FORCED to shoot Martin which is why he lied to police about what happened afterwards. What he told police happened afterwards is what you would expect if someone either thought they had not hit the target and felt remorse. He describes asking for help to restrain Martin ( didn’t know he hit his target) and he told Singleton he didn’t know Martin was dead and looked downward upon hearing the news (remorseful, someone who was forced to fire but didn’t want to.) So the lines he fed police shows you that he knew how he was supposed to respond if he had no malice BUT THE FACTS IN EVIDENCE SHOWS HE ACTUALLY RESPONDED AS WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS MALICE TOWARDS THEIR VICTIM. ( Didn’t ask for help restraining, put his full weight on a dying child, walked away from and never looked at his body again even as he took the time to pose for photographs.) The fact that he tried to cover up the amount of malice he had actually exhibited towards Martin by lying about asking for help restraining, lying about what he was doing while waiting for police to get there and lying about how long it took police to arrive after the shot was fired is bone chilling proof that he killed Trayvon because he wanted to.

      • Puck says:

        And someone evincing a depraved mind should not be considered “reasonable” in terms of GZ having a reasonable fear for his life. Nothing he did that night was reasonable, really. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt that suddenly, during the struggle, he suddenly became “reasonable” again? That standard is based on how a genuinely reasonable person would feel, think, and act. GZ was clearly acting vastly unreasonably throughout.

        • KA says:

          I thought the testimony from the officer that was doing CPR on Trayvon was powerful and will have an impact.

          He was clearly upset by the death of the boy and trying his damnedest to breath for him and revive him. I think he was a great agent to “humanize” and make real the horror of this teen’s death to a jury of women.

          I think it is strange that we are sticking with the “Trayvon could have lived 1 – 10 minutes” when we have documented proof that he was not alive 4 or 5 minutes after the shot as testified by this officer.

          • Puck says:

            And the State made a point to ask him why he didn’t go back to his patrol car to get a breathing mask — he felt there was no time. All this while Fogen is making a phone call, wandering about, chatting gun caliber with Manolo and asking if he was bleeding, perhaps dropping his key with the little flashlight at the T, perhaps scratching his face and head, perhaps smearing his blood around, but most definitely starting to formulate his bogus story (which quickly became stories, plural).

          • MedicineBear says:

            “I think it is strange that we are sticking with the “Trayvon could have lived 1 – 10 minutes” when we have documented proof that he was not alive 4 or 5 minutes after the shot as testified by this officer.”

            Whether the possible range is 1-3 minutes or 1-10 minutes, this data point makes clear that Trayvon was in agony and unable to speak or move much for at least one minute before expiring.

            During that last minute of agony, CAC frisked him and got on his back (adding to his final suffering) BUT DID NOTHING TO HELP THIS DYING KID.

            More data points showing that fogen ACTED WITH DEPRAVED MIND NOT REGARDING SANCTITY OF HUMAN LIFE.

            What was fogen doing while the kid’s heart was bleeding out? Arranging his stories and the murder scene to cover his own depraved ass to falsely justify murder.

    • If he walks, I will need some serious help.

      Definitely count me in too.

    • Malisha says:

      People like Rene Stutzman do not reevaluate themselves; they reevaluate only others.

  50. bettykath says:

    I really like the idea of a timeline (link to an example posted elsewhere) but it should have the entire nen call, rachel’s call, and on to the 911 calls and the gun shot. There should be no “breaks” for extended times, especially from the end of the nen call and the gunshot. If they have to put in a break, it should be at the front end and the length of the break should be noted.

    Such a picture would show more graphically the amount of time between the end of the nen call and the end of Rachel’s call that is unaccounted for in gz’s tales. This is a very key point and a picture will help jurors to understand it.

    • Romaine says:

      bettykath that timeline was from the GZlegal web site, I believe the pros used it during the trial..you can go to the gz site to verify it if you like

      • bettykath says:

        I went there but couldn’t find figure out whose it is. If it’s from the prosecution, they need to fix it. The key times, imo, are from the end of the nen call to the shot, which includes the beginning of the altercation as reflected by the end of Rachel’s call. The picture on this timeline is misleading. If they go with it as is, I’ll be convinced they are throwing the case, or more charitably, .they don’t really understand the importance of pictures.

    • whonoze says:

      The State has it’s own timeline exhibit. It was entered into evidence just before the State rested, but was not shown clearly on camera and has not been made public.

      The Defense timeline posted on gzlegalcase has not yet been introduced as evidence. The prosecution has not used it.

    • Tzar says:

      best time line I have seen thus far
      thanks to whonoze and company

  51. boar_d_laze says:

    Trials are always something of a crap shoot; and so are trial strategy decisions. You can’t really handicap them in terms of probabilities or even with what happened in every single one of 100 trials which looked exactly like the one you’re conducting

    The TV lawyer/commentators all agree that most good Defense attorneys will keep the defendant off the stand if it’s at all possible.

    However, there’s a reason that people go on TV instead of going in front of a jury. It’s because they don’t have clients. Also, a great many of the TV lawyers are (or were) notoriously bad practitioners. Marsha Clark? Lawyer, please.

    Anyway, bear in mind that almost every criminal defendant who goes to trial is found guilty. So, whatever most criminal defense attorneys do most of the time doesn’t work. It seems clear to me that very few of the people commenting are clear on the law which governs “self-defense.” Quite a few seem more familiar with DUIs than major felonies.

    After almost every case, the attorneys attempt to button-hole the jurors in the hall and interview them about their reasons for reaching the decision they did. One thing that’s consistent in big cases, and/or cases where intent is the primary issue, is that juries REALLY want to hear from the defendant directly. If they don’t, they are more likely to convict.

    In self-defense cases the defendant almost always testifies.

    If Mr. Zimmerman takes the stand, he will at least have the opportunity to tell the jury (true or not) what was going on in his mind at the time leading up to and ending with the killing of Mr. Martin. On the other hand, he’s made a lot of inconsistent statements before trial, and will be exposed to a cross examination which — if done competently — should devastate his credibility.

    Will he testify? If he were my client, I’d advise him to take the chance. But there are good arguments either way and ultimately its his decision.

    If you think you KNOW what’s going to happen next, you’re mistaken.


    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sure is a rollercoaster of a trial.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – I’ve always enjoyed your deeply thoughtful posts here and at TalkLeft.

        • Puck says:

          Jeralyn lets someone sensible post on TalkLeft? I’m flabbergasted! 😉

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Well, at least she used to. Lately she’s got an echo chamber going on in there. There might be one or two old hands who disagree with her and get away with it only because they’ve been around so long.

          • Puck says:

            I don’t know what her deal is. Maybe she’s on drugs or sumpin’. Or intoxicated by a secret lust for Zimmerman, or racism, or just enjoying being the evil queen of her bizarre kingdom.

            If liberals were indeed “card-carrying” as they are so derided by conservatives, she should have her “card” destroyed and her “membership” revoked. I’m not saying liberals can’t be on GZ’s side, just that I’m shocked that she appears to have become contitutionally incapable of considering actual evidence. I discussed this at length several times in my Tea Party paper, and came up with a new term to describe that sort of phenomenological state, but I can’t say what it is because it makes me doxable.

    • Rachael says:

      Credibility is kind of everything. That is why West was being such a dickhead. If they can get you to trip up on something, they can say “see, see – he/she lied, they aren’t credible.” Once you get caught in a lie, it can be hard to believe anything and he has introduced a reasonable doubt. That’s why he nitpicks things. He thought Rachel was an easy mark. The reason it took him so long is she wasn’t.

      GZ has enough lie— “inconsistencies” on his own. I know it must have stung quite a bit to hear himself called out loud broadcast to the world that he is a LIAR. It is hard to take anything he says as truth with that many lies. I mean why should I or anyone believe him? If he could like about having graduated, lie about saying he thought Trayvon was just a couple years younger than him to Trayvon’s MOTHER, if he could lie about “he wasn’t running,” lie about not knowing about SYG, why should I believe he wouldn’t lie about self-defense?

      Now if he thinks he can explain all that away, get on the stand and take a chance. I couldn’t believe him any less than I do now.

    • Trained Observer says:

      BBDL — Have stated above that I think Fogen will find it hard to resist doing his old smootheroo for jurors, … like he did for Hannity.

      Another factor: During the past year, MOM surely has learned how to punch Fogen’s buttons.

      On the surface, MOM may be advising Fogen to steer clear of the stand. Yet, if MOM thinks it would put his own potential legal loss in better light, MOM may be manipulating him to get in the box.

      Then MOM could strut out to media mics and say, “we had the case well in hand, but my client insisted on testifying and that muddied the waters.”

      Success in keeping Fogen off the stand, means MOM and Westlicker must face criticism that they did a sub-par job.

      (Never mind that Fogen murdered an unarmed teen and showed no remorse, or that MOM and Westlicker have hit new lows in perpetrating legal sleaze.)_

      • Cercando Luce says:

        O’Mara and West save their own skins, professionally, by getting George into the box. They have been assiduous in reminding the court and public through their legal motions that their client has been involved in his own defense– in order to tell the public that what they are doing is not their fault.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      The Lawyers often do not think as jurors do, this should be obvious from the Arias trial some of the questions the juror had far out did the Lawyers , each juror will decide what they put the most weight on and I will say it again, if everything in this case was thrown to the side you only have the defendants credibility and he has NONE, you lie , I vote to convict,

    • Susan Moore says:

      I think that the jury would be particularly annoyed if he does not testify, because he has given so many statements already–even to nationwide TV audiences–that they would be annoyed that he was willing to speak to everyone except the jury.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ boar_d_laze

      Nice to see you again, Boar. I do not think anyone knows for sure whether or not GZ will testify. What we do is – based on the facts know to us so far – make a cost-benefit-analysis of why GZ should or should not testify. Like the Professor, I think GZ will NOT testify. Apart from the reasons mentioned by the Professor, I have this other reasons for my belief:

      a. O’Mara said during the hearing for the Motion for judgment of acquittal: “I do not know exactly what the State’s case is – yet”. Based on O’Mara’s other (in)action re specific matter, I do believe him when he says that he has not yet figured out the State. Now, why would you send a client into a mine field without knowing where the mines lay buried? How do you prepare the client to engage in such a dangerous endeavor if you don’t know that exactly to prepare him against?

      b. The cost of taking the stand by far outweighs its benefits (if any at all). Sure, GZ can tell his story and try to explain away the inconsistencies, but whatever he gains on direct examination will be crushed on cross-examination thereby compounding and irreparably reinforcing the notion that he lied and is still lying about “what happened” in an effort to conceal the truth and escape justice. On KEY issues GZ’s story is simply physically and/or physiologically and/or in time and space impossible.

      If I were GZ’s lawyer, I will tell him the following: “the situation is what it is. You made the decision to talk to the cops, provide them written and oral statements and videotaped reenactments. Someone who calls himself your best friend has also testified to what he claims you told him. And there is also the Hannity interview, I advised you that it was not a good idea. And there is also the NEN-tapes prior to- and on 26-2-2012. We will make the best out of the statements you have already provided to different persons on different occasion. But taking the stand will IMO make the situation worse, not better. If you insist on taking the stand, I will fully support you”.

      TV-lawyers claim that GZ will not take the stand for very wrong reasons. They argue that the State made a mistake by introducing GZ’s statements and entering it into evidence thereby destroying any chance of GZ not being forced to the stand. I disagree. I think it was brilliant for the State to do that. In so doing, the State has painted GZ as a liar to the jury hoping that GZ will take the stand to refute that allegation and in that process deliver his head on a silver platter to them, or be damned if he does not. It’s now up to make the next move. Will GZ take the bait and enter the “box”? We will see ….

      • SearchingMind says:

        Typos second paragraph: “How do you prepare the client to engage in such a dangerous endeavor if you don’t know WHAT (not “that”) exactly to prepare him against?” (was meant)

        Typos last paragraph: It’s now up GZ to make the next move. Will GZ take the bait and enter the “box”? We will see ….(was meant)

    • newmediacounsel says:

      I am curious: At what point can the Prosecution stop using the term “inconsistencies” and start to use the term lies?

      I mean- the statements Zimmerman made can’t all be true. Some of which are clearly lies- eg his claim not to know SYG defense was clearly a lie. I know lying requires intent, but either he’s suffering from severe memory problems, or was lying. The same with certain elements of the case, e.g., his claims that he was jumped-

      I suppose the point of not saying liar is to let the jury come to this conclusion.

      • racerrodig says:

        Mantei called Fogen a liar on Friday. This case is about 2 people…one of them is dead and the other one is a liar….

        That worked for me.

    • KA says:

      I wanted to ask something BDL. I know a year or so ago, you were open minded about guilt/innocence (it seemed at least) when posting here.

      It seems that you now believe that Zimmerman is at least guilty of killing Trayvon unlawfully now.

      I am really interested in your opinion, as an attorney in criminal law, what have you learned over the past year that seemingly swayed your personal opinion?

      I have wanted to ask for a while now. I hope you do not mind.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        When I first started posting at HuffPo, I didn’t know enough to have an opinion about guilt or innocence, but think by the time I got here I believed that Mr. Zimmerman was guilty. If not, it was very shortly thereafter.

        At the time, I thought that the combination of the NEN call; Ms. Jeantel’s memory of what she heard leading up to and at the time of the Martin/Zimmerman confrontation; the disposition of the physical evidence; and Mr. Zimmerman’s complete lack of credibility created by his numerous and contradictory versions of events — along with Florida law concerning when “self defense” is and is not available — were dispositive that Mr. Zimmerman could not claim the justification of “self defense,” and was therefore guilty.

        The NEN call was close to convincing in its own right. But what really decided it for me was the location of the physical evidence showing the “fight” took place too far from the “T” for Mr. Zimmerman’s story that he had discontinued chasing Mr. Martin and was returning to his truck to possibly be true.

        Ms. Jeantel’s evidence was further corroboration of what already seemed fairly obvious. That is, Mr. Zimmerman was still hunting Mr. Martin — as part of a single, continuous course of conduct on Mr. Zimmerman’s part — at the time the confrontation occurred; that Mr. Zimmerman’s conduct was inherently threatening; and that if anyone could claim self defense, it was Mr. Martin.

        Florida law says if you provoke a fight by chasing someone, you cannot then use “self-defense” to excuse yourself for what you did in the fight.

        I am ready to change my opinion in the light of new evidence or legal arguments, but so far have heard nothing sufficient to change my mind.


    • Tzar says:

      I think the state’s hands are tied because they are trying to mitigate damage control of pending lawsuits against SPD while prosecuting the person SPD is invested in protecting. And O’Mara plans to leverage this as much as possible. Zimmerman has dirt on SPD that they committed obstruction of justice in his favor while investigating his actions on the night of the murder, but he can’t blurt it out, he can only insinuate and threaten them-remember O’Mara requesting an emergency hearing to sequester SPD officers, that was just a thinly veiled threat to SPD imo, “play ball or this gets ugly for all of us but much quicker for you guys”- into testifying favorably for him in court as this same information would surely convict him.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @BDL who says

      Also, a great many of the TV lawyers are (or were) notoriously bad practitioners. Marsha Clark? Lawyer, please.

      could not agree more. i am paying no attention to celebrity lawyers as i know their only function is to sell advertising space for some network. i do occasionally walk by the TV if my husband is watching something and catch a glimpse of both marcia baby and mark geragos.

      i wind up inquiring of geragos how his boy scotty peterson is doing these days. oh yeah, he’s on death row in san quentin in my home state of california, which is not exactly a common occurrence these days…. then i start cursing at the TV and have to find another room of the house.

      gerragos may have had his day in the sun but he’s got too much time for TV appearances for me to take seriously. to marcia, i can only say ‘you can’t be a has been when you never was’.

      • racerrodig says:

        I’m thinking my TV is pissed I keep giving it the finger. Yep, whenever Taaffe is on I seem to wind up flipping him the bird or flipping the NFL Network on…….or The Speed Channel, The History Channel or The Biography Channel.

  52. tashatexas77048 says:

    I have been reading a lot of comments here and there and I’ve noticed that many legal analysts do not believe the State has presented enough to get a conviction. I will say, however, that I noticed a little shift in this notion after the DNA evidence was presented. I still say that there were a few glaring errors by the State. I think they mishandled John Good. I think they should have found a way to make it clear that he was a defense witness and they called him to the stand SOLELY to testify that his story had changed. O’Mara shouldn’t have been allowed to introduce his previous statements and spin them as if he was telling the truth the first time. To outsiders, including the jury I’m sure, it looked like the State’s own witness had turned against them. They mishandled Lauer as well. They should have called her after they played his walk thru videos. It seems she knew the Defendant, even knew about his past arrest record. She was the head of the HOA and I’m sure nearly every resident there knew the HOA lady’s address. Therefore he could have asked her if Zimmerman knew where she lived. He could have asked if she knew Zimmerman claimed to have pulled in front of her house looking for an address the night he killed Martin and asked if Zimmerman ever knocked on her door and asked ” what’s the name of this street?”

    Det. Singleton and Det. Serino were detrimental to the State’s case because it seemed they took an “we don’t want to make our own look bad” approach to those two. They redeemed themselves on day two with Serino but the damage had already been done. All of the dramatics BDLR pulled out on day two could have been pulled out on day one with Serino but instead he lets O’Swarmy get to him first and then he was left trying to come from behind.

    I still do not understand the purpose of Dr. Rao claiming the Defendant could have received all of his injuries from one punch to the face without also explaining WHEN that punch likely occurred. Common sense tells us it couldn’t have been at the beginning of the confrontation because little of Zimmerman’s blood is on Martin and its definitely not where it should be if Martin continued to assault Zimmerman. But why leave the jurors with the impression of Martin punching Zimmerman square in the face? That was a big ass fail and just as I said, that defense witness, unlike any other, was given a special mention in O’Mara’s motion for acquittal. That witness will bite the State in the ass for the remainder of the trial.

    That being said, I think the DNA evidence alone will convict Zimmerman.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      I meant that State’s witness was given a special mention by O’Mara.

      • KA says:

        I do not think the State can impeach their own witnesses.

        However, if they are recalled (which MOM indicated they would) by the defense, I suspect impeachment would be the sole motive of the State.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good points. Fogen’s own words impeach him. Might be even stronger than any physical evidence.

  53. LSimon3321 says:

    I think the judge and the state told the potential jurors about reasonable doubt and both sides and the judge told them about presumption of innocence.

  54. Elizabeth says:

    To me it invalidates he was looking for an addres.
    No, he continued to follow hence ” Oh shit the n…behind me”
    And within 3 minutes TM was blasted straight through the
    Does anybody think Defendant would have been found dead
    at the scene if he hadn’t killed trayvon?
    No way! And he heard and saw people around while Trayvon was
    still alive so that should have greatly diminished defendants fear for his life.Very unreasonable to pull out a gun let alone fire it.
    Not opinion, fact.

  55. Tzar says:

    George can’t get on the stand
    too many inconsistencies that he simply can’t fix or dismiss

    • Tzar says:

      in no particular order, let’s place the insurmountable inconsistencies here in reply to the post above

      I’ll start

      1. You allege to have gone went across the T to RTC in order to get an address for NEN to meet you, because you claim there was no address near your car, how come you never gave the address to NEN, but yet decided to go wait for them at the car where there is no address to give them?

      • diary73 says:

        You claim that you told cameraman Jon not to call 911 because you already called but that you needed him to help you with “this guy,” but when Jon encountered you, you were already up and walking.

      • diary73 says:

        You claim that, after getting your head bashed on the sidewalk repeatedly, you shimmied your head away from the concrete, exposing your gun. How could his be true if Trayvon’s body was found nowhere near the concrete?

        • Sophia33 says:

          Add on, you claimed that Trayvon was straddling you. If you “shimmied” in the direction that you claim then Trayvon’s knees would have been on the side of your head. This would have made it even harder for him to see your gun. AND it would have made it harder for you to reach it.

        • Puck says:

          If you shimmied on the wet grass, where are the grass stains on both your jacket and shirt? Officer Smith said the back of his jacket was “covered with grass” yet it seemed pretty clean at the police station. Does the back seat upholstery in Smith’s police cruiser also do dry-cleaning?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            puck says:

            Does the back seat upholstery in Smith’s police cruiser also do dry-cleaning?

            in my experience, cop car backseats are miserable plastic benches with a bullet proof shield between front and back seats, leaving no leg room whatsoever.

            do not ask me how i know 😉
            (it was innocent, i assure you, i had witnessed a crime and san jose PD was taking me on a ride to see if i could ID the suspect.)

            my friends who were cops in the bay area tell me that typically, if a suspect pisses off an officer in any way, that they would take the long route to the station, making as many sharp turns and fast stops as possible. on a plastic bench with no seatbelt and a bullet proof plate not far from your own head leaves them with a roughed up suspect with no detectable injuries before they even get to the station.

      • diary73 says:

        If you spread Trayvon’s arms out after getting on top of him, how do his arms get under his body as evident from cameraman Jon’s photo right after the shooting?

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          You claim Martin hit you and knocked you backwards. How did you end up 30 feet down the T unless the truth is his first punch did not incapacitate you? You continued down the T after him because you had the strength and stamina to do so.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            You claim Martin hit you first at the T. Do you have any explantation for why his cell phone, that he was speaking on when he first encountered you, was found 30 feet down the T, next to his body?

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Can you explain how a flashlight that you admitted holding in your hand was found 30 feet down the sidewalk if you were first hit at the T?

          • DruDo says:

            You claim your head was bashed into the concrete 20-25 times and you thought you were going to lose consciousness and you were going to die, but yet, you could pull your gun out, aim precisely at Trayvon’s heart and be sure to move your hand out of the way so you didn’t shoot your dumbass self in the hand. And didn’t even have elevated blood pressure. My son made up better stories than that when he was 4 years old.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          During your NEN call you said Martin started running when your location was “a little bit past the mailboxes.” At that time you immediately jumped out and followed. Can you explain how you, your truck and Trayvon Martin got from “near the mailboxes” to the T where you claim you exited you car, simultaneously and within a fraction of a second?

        • Sophia33 says:

          You claim that you didn’t know you killed Trayvon Martin, then what did you think it meant when his body wasn’t moving on the grass?

      • chronicity says:

        You said that Trayvon circled your car, but on the phone to NEN, even after the dispatcher told you report to him if the kid was doing anything unusual, you never mentioned anything about Trayvon circling you. Why?

      • Trained Observer says:

        * You spot a black teenager with hoodie up against the rain and immediately decide he looks suspicious … like he’s “on drugs or sumpem” and “up to no good.” How did you come up with that conclusion, since records show he was on the phone with a girl?

        * How come you told NEN your “suspect” was in “late teens” and yet you got on the stand at the bond hearing to tell Trayvon’s parents you thought he was older, like your age? (As if making him older would make shooting him AOK.

        • pat deadder says:

          Why didn’t Rachael hear any of your No I don’t have a problem bs.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          You left your truck with a loaded weapon, intent on catching a criminal, but never simply identified yourself or asked Trayvon if he was lost or if you could give him a ride in the rain. Instead you made him feel as if he had to run from the criminal you proved yourself to be.

      • Tzar says:

        The night of the murder you told detective Singleton that you first spotted Trayvon walking east on RTC (west of the TTL entrance), the next day in the reenactment you said you first spotted him in Taffee’s yard, which one is true?

      • Puck says:

        Who did you call at 7:18 p.m.? NEN, or the extension of someone from SPD via the general line?

      • Sophia33 says:

        If you were on the grass, as the placement of the body indicates, then how could Trayvon Martin been causing you great bodily harm (assuming that your lie is true) by pounding your head in wet moist grass?

      • bellesouth says:

        Where is that bush that you said he jumped out of?

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree he SHOULDN’T get on the stand. But as someone else pointed out, people who are psychopaths or sociopaths don’t see themselves as the rest of us see them. His ego might be such that he actually thinks that he can talk himself out of this. And the arrogance of some of his body language in the proceedings speaks volumes. The giggle after the Hannity interview. The smirks. The nose up in the air at Sybrina Fulton. The lack of compassion for Sybrina Fulton all speak to someone who might be arrogant enough to testify. I think if George doesn’t testify, it will have more to do with his attorneys holding him back from doing it.

      • MedicineBear says:

        “His ego might be such that he actually thinks that he can talk himself out of this.”

        Yes, he’s always had a friendly audience of fellow CACs, enabling family, and racists hiding behind badges of authority.

        I don’t think an intelligent, objective jury of humane, compassionate mothers and animal lovers are going to be friendly to a creep who prejudged (profilled) a kid he didn’t know as one of “these assholes,” who mis-characterized a kid just walking home as a “punk,” who followed by car and foot a kid running from him, who chased the kid into the dark walkway and silenced forever the teenager’s voice with a bullet to the heart.

        I think this jury will recognize this CAC for the murdering depraved CAC that he has revealed himself to be.

        • pat deadder says:

          Why didn’t fogen roll down his window tell Trayvon who he was and offer him a ride to get out of the rain.I did that once it was winter and very cold. A young guy was walking I offered him a ride and I’m an old lady.Jesus what’s wrong with him.

          • MedicineBear says:

            See, it’s just simple common sense! I have faith that the jury has that same intelligent common sense (backed up by direct and circumstantial evidence and their gut instincts).

          • tonydphotog says:

            I read somewhere a while back that he did have his window down, but closed it when Trayvon approached him to find out if there was a problem.

            If you listen to the NEN call, when fogen starts panicking about getting an officer over there quickly, I hear a younger voice saying “problem”.

            Doesn’t Fogen claim Trayvon said, “Do you have a problem”?

            I’m guessing he would use that comment before using “What are you following me for?”

            I believe Trayvon asked Fogen both questions. One by the Clubhouse, and the other on the dog walk.

          • Sophia33 says:

            Is there anything about this man that screams common sense?

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Mr. Zimmerman, DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE?

      • Tzar says:

        I did not say he shouldn’t, I said he can’t or won’t want to. Far be it from me to advise the mind that bought you such sublime brilliance as, “I haven’t really had the time to reflect on it. When I was in jail, obviously I was in solitary confinement and I had a lot of time to think and reflect.”; no, no, au contraire I suggest he does take the stand and wow the jury the same way he wowed us and himself-as can be surmised by his grinning reaction to viewing the interview in court- while on Hannity.

        • Sophia33 says:

          I do think he wants to testify. I agree with you that I don’t think he can. I think his attorneys are holding him back. But that ego may prevail.

          He wants to share the brilliance that gave us, “It wasn’t my gun, it wasn’t his gun, it was thee gun”.

    • Trained Observer says:

      * If you were on your way to SuperTarget to “get lunches” like you told your pal Osterman (according to his testimony under oath), how come you were packing a gun but didn’t have any money or credit cards that were not maxed out? Were you planning on shop lifting or pulling off a holdup?

      * If you carry your lil ol’ gun everywhere except to work, how come you forgot you had it when Trayvon allegedly made you feel threatened?

      * Why did you know the clubhouse address during previous calls to cops, but suddenly you didn’t even know the names of streets much less where to find an address on the night you killed Trayvon?

      • Soulcatcher says:

        You say Nen needed an address

        You say after you tell Nen you don’t see him anymore, they ask you if you still want them to send an officer.

        You said he was running, and then he wasn’t running, he was skipping, moving quixly away, he wasn’t running, he wasn’t in fear.

        You said he called you homie

        You said you couldn’t remember if he called you homie.

        • Soulcatcher says:

          He says Trayvon approached him at the club house.
          He says he comes back and circles his car when he was parked on ttr.

          He says nen asked if he could see him
          He says nen asked if he could get to a place where he could.
          He said he told nen he came back and circled his car
          not true to the above three

    • Sophia33 says:

      You say you didn’t know if you killed Trayvon Martin, why instead of having pictures taken of yourself didn’t you try to render some aid to him?

      Now let me add a Sophia note to this…last year, a man in his family went to a farm that they visit every year. While his son and daughter were playing in the field a man abducted his daughter. The little boy got away and went for help. When this father got to where his daughter was he saw the abductor with his pants down in the process of raping his daughter. He beat the man to death in a fit of rage. If you listen to that 911 call after the father regained some of his senses he was begging for this man not to die and was pleading for the police to hurry and get there. I think that call is on Youtube. Now, assuming that GZ thought all of these horrible things about Trayvon Martin, why wasn’t he more distraught at the thought of having taken another human life no matter what he thought of that person? Because he is a sociopathic murderer.

  56. Jun says:

    Is it just me or did it seem like Fogen’s uncle was putting it hard in his acting for his testimony?

    He seemed very scripted in his testimony to me and his testimony was like no other officer

    • Rachael says:

      He wasn’t there as an officer, remember 😉 But yeah, he needs a new writer – terrible script. He needs a new director too – WAAAAAAyyyyy overacted.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Not just you, Jun.

      Remember how Bernie on two occasions referred to Fogen as Jorge’s son? A simple error? A deliberate attempt to get him riled and off script? Does Bernie know something not generally known ( while not germane to the murder) and was he putting Jorge on notice not to get too carried away in his blather or Zimmerman family skeletons might come shaking out?

      Such a big, extended deal was made about how Jorge was there as an “uncle”, rather than as an Orange County deputy. That could have been established in one question with a “yes” response, but it dragged on and on. Why?

      • pat deadder says:

        Maybe it was Jorge’s wife who was in labor not his sister.And what happened to the other child of the Zimmerman’s.I thought there was an older daughter.God after this trial is over and fogen is where he should be I never want to have that murderer in my mind ever again.

    • Puck says:

      Someone opined that his rat-a-tat-tat about being a sworn officer ex-military yadda yadda yadda (to imply that he would never, ever, ever tell a lie) seemed genuine. I disagree. (That and the following are my opinions based on my observations and expertise in social psychology. It seems I have to now preface what I say with the caveat that it’s my opinion, lest I be accused yet again of Stalinesque — or Jeralynesque — denigration and humiliation of anyone with whom I have a difference of opinion.) That kind of hyperbolic rapid spiel of self-immunization statements seems more like a pre-rehearsed bit by someone who knows they’re going to have to lie.

      Sybrina didn’t say “I’m Trayvon’s mother I first heard him cry when he was born I raised him and nurtured him and treated his cuts and bruises he’s my baby I know him I know his voice why would I lie I’m grief-stricken I don’t want those to be his screams I know they’re his screams that’s my baby and no one else because I’m a mother and no one knows a child’s voice better than his mother and I’ve just sworn to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and Crump didn’t coach me no matter what the defense says so yes, those screams are of Trayvon Benjamin Martin!” She simply and beautifully and gracefully identified the screams as Travyon’s and that was that. She didn’t need a pre-rehearsed bit to establish her crediblity. Fogen’s uncle, on the other hand, seemed to have thought he needed a big spiel to establish his credibility; I believe it had the opposite effect.

      • Jun says:

        he was laying it on thick, IMO too

        it was like he was monotone reading a script to me

        I swear Omara was telling West “This idiot did not get the script right”

        I thought I was the only one who felt that way

      • whonoze says:

        It was me who opined that Jorge Mesa seemed genuine. And I based that opinion largely on some research I did in the last century during which I interviewed an elderly Mexican-American immigrant who had spent his career working for the railroads. He has served in combat in WW2 and received multiple citations for bravery, only to return to the US and find continued discrimination in the workplace, being denied advancement while less qualified anglos were promoted over him.

        We were working on a documentary film about railroad history, so we were talking to him to get a primary account of how the racial politics of the Empire Builders. He invited us graciously into his home, but we couldn’t get him to say anything about railroads or discrimination until he had showed us his chest full of medals, discursed at length about his patriotism and his pride in his service. He lived in a small Mississippi river town in Iowa, where the railroad had brought many Mexican immigrants to serve as track workers. We discovered that the only remaining active members of the American Legion in that town were Mr. Alvarez and 3 or 4 other Mexican Americans of similar age, who were also veterans of both railroad work and the Armed Services. In short, the most proud and patriotic Americans in this heartland town were the older Hispanic immigrants.

        When Mesa started talking about honor and what not, my mind immediately flashed back 25 years to my interview with Mr. Alvarez… It struck me as a very similar emotion and perspective.

        I actually think MOM was right when he suggested in his last press conference that witnesses form the realities they need to have in order to go on living. I mean, I think the screams ARE Trayvon’s, based on the voice examplars and the circumstances, but even if they weren’t TM I would expect Sybrina Fulton to believe with full honesty that they were. To trot out one of the most well-worn concepts in social psychology, I’d invoke Festingers theory of cognitive dissonance. I don’t for a minute think Jorge Mesa has the kind of purely spontaneous, un-preconditioned response to Z-CAC’s voice he said he did. But I think he truly believes he did. As he processed the events of that moment into his memory, blood turned out to be thicker than empirical reality. Thus, while I question his veracity, I find no grounds to question his integrity. Honorable people can be mistaken, and often are when loved ones are concerned.

        • Puck says:

          Oh, I don’t question his integrity at all, and you’re right about cognitive dissonace. Still, I found (this is my opinion, of course) it to be laid on a little thick.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I think the Zimmerman family simply wants desperately to believe Fogen’s story and of course, they don’t want to see him spend most or all of his life in jail.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Oh what a deep, rich, thought-provoking, meaty comment you have wrought, whonoze!

          This bit . . .

          “I actually think MOM was right when he suggested in his last press conference that witnesses form the realities they need to have in order to go on living.”

          . . . brought to mind my own theory of John Good’s statement(s) that I formed after seeing him on the stand . . .

          We all remember the emotionally powerful 911 call made by Jayne Surdyka and her heart-rending words:

          “The boy was screaming for help . . . why didn’t someone help him? . . . Why couldn’t I do something to help him?”

          Jayne Surdyka’s words perfectly summed up the anguish and helplessness that I felt when I first heard the boy screaming for help on the Jenna 911 call. Wails for help. A final anguished cry. The gunshot. Silence. And no one had helped this poor boy. Listening to the recording, *I* wished *I* could have answered his pleas, but of course, I was not there. Jayne wished she could have answered the pleas for help, and she was there — but too far away.

          Now compare Jayne Surdyka’s raw, emotionally-transparent testimony with John Good’s. Words to describe JG’s statements and demeanor are: contained, controlled, emotionally repressed, RATIONAL (this word was liberally peppered throughout his testimony). Thing is, JG experienced the same emotions and trauma that Jayne expressed. AND HE WAS RIGHT THERE — CLOSE ENOUGH TO HELP. Consider that. He heard the pleas, he didn’t get involved, and the black kid (surprise!) ended up being the victim who was pleading for help. Pleading for his life. And JG has to live with, not only the trauma of those unanswered pleas, but that HE could have actually saved the victim’s life.

          Which brings us back to the bit about “witnesses form the realities they need to have in order to go on living.”

          Our minds RATIONALIZE much so we may go on living.

          I don’t think JG’s mind let him hear the cries as coming from Trayvon. I don’t think his mind lets him go to the reality that TM was fighting for his life, was pleading for help, had a gun pointed at him, was an innocent victim whom John Good could have saved.

          That’s a lot to live with.

          Note how JG’s “clarifications” reflect the evolution of his first “reality” (that we now know was the mistaken perception that TM didn’t need help) to the adjusted “reality” that JG didn’t see enough to judge who needed help. In both these “realities” JG has RATIONALIZED that he COULDN’T help.

          None of the characters in this whole trial is a cardboard cut-out “Good Guy” or “Bad Guy”. Just very complex human beings.

      • bellesouth says:

        I was impressed how BDLR insinuated that he was shielding himself from the case but definitely knew about the case he was concealing himself from enough to acknowledge that he wasn’t in a vaccum when the t.v. was playing in the other room.

    • DruDo says:

      Nope, not just you, Jun. It seemed to me it was “this is what you say and this is how you say it”. And wearing his uniform when he wasn’t there as an officer seems very disingenuous. Uniforms do not equal credibility, but may influence.

  57. Sophia33 says:

    “I think he’s going to testify for all the wrong reasons because he has always been able to lie his way out of trouble.”

    In my opinion, right here you hit the nail on the head, Professor. I think that he will testify for this reason also.

  58. Nef05 says:

    I am dismayed by the lack of tolerance toward fellow posters who may have a different opinions they’d like to express.

    I’m dismayed by the eagerness to form a clique, leaving those who don’t find it necessary to run with the crowd and mealy mouth the same opinion, unwelcome.

    I’m dismayed at the number of statements, in the post I’m replying to, that are factually incorrect.

    I’m further dismayed by those who know those statements are inaccurate, yet cosign the post, anyway.

    I’m dismayed by those who feel that if support is not expressed in “their” acceptable manner, it is not acceptable at all, regardless if the final goal is the same, on the same page as the others.

    I’m dismayed by someone who can dismiss major forensic evidence like blood flow from the head, and misalignment of the shirt holes to bullet wound from those whose perspective is not “acceptable” – but finds no hypocrisy in touting the benefits of small questions regarding the button and the pinpricks as establishing the bare bone of the case, from his own perspective.

    I’m dismayed by the absolute insistence that a “tie-in” is solely a part of the closing argument and that anyone who disagrees doesn’t understand that another time is not the time to do that. This, despite more than one comment by the blog’s owner that that is absolutely not the case.

    I am dismayed by the intolerance and invalidation of the points made by long-time respected posters, besides myself, as well as some newbies – simply from their point of view.

    I ask myself – what is the purpose of this post. It divides, it intimidates those who don’t hold the same cookie-cutter, rainbow and glitter view, it perpetuates a mentality of “us” and “them” even within out own group and even though it holds to a position that is in opposition to that of the blog owner it appears to be acceptable. And, WHY?? This is not what we do. We only do this to trolls. Not people like Whonoze, willisnewton, mrsdoubtfire, type1juve, Medicinebear,Nef, Brandy, Tasha, Drudo, KateW, RobertSF, etc. THESE are not TROLLS!

    It’s not acceptable. We are many, diverse, and individual. And differing points of view, as long as they are respectful, are as valued as we hold out fellow posters to be valued. We are not homogeneous. We ALL have something to offer and it should be valued. We’re not the outhouse, and I’ll be darned if I’ll let us turn into it without fighting for what’s real and valuable – this group of contributors, with ALL their perspectives and opinions.

    Original post:

    • Nef05 says:

      My response:
      ““Many” are not “flipping out”. “Some” have voiced concerns, as is their right to do, in this space provided for it. Nor, have they said, it’s all over. Rather they’ve expressed their wish that things could have gone differently, as is ALSO their right, in this space provided for it.

      The case in chief is about evidence, and contrary to what you’ve posted, the misalignment of the bullet holes to the bullet wound IS forensic evidence, and was subject to it’s own article by the Professor, when this evidence was released, complete with measurements and followed up by LLMPapa.

      Clearly, even the professor knows the case in chief is more than just presenting evidence or he would not have posted about the summary witness OR the fact that he didn’t agree with the fact they didn’t use one.
      So first, they have by no means rested their case, and second, they have a measure of control over where this goes. Consider statements from the prosecution throughout, and Mantei’s amazing delivery yesterday (I really hope he does the closing): they know and even anticipate what the defense is going to say about whichever aspect or issue, and have prepared themselves to either shoot these down as they occur or pre-empt them completely.
      So, first they HAVE rested their case, and while they can shoot the defense down, they can no longer “pre-empt” them, since by definition, that means going first, and in the defense case in chief, THEY go first with direct exam and the prosecution has to go second with cross. The time to “pre-empt” them is past.

      “anticipate what the defense is going to say about whichever aspect or issue, and have prepared themselves to either shoot these down as they occur or pre-empt them completely” Anticipate = future, what the defense is GOING to = future, have prepared themselves to = future, either shoot them down OR pre-empt them – future.

      I can see where this is going, and I’m really not worried. It’s a much nicer space to be in than fretting and carrying on and bashing the State for not doing things you think they should have done not realizing that the case-in-chief is not the time to do this.

      Good for you. But, expressing our concerns in an environment we believed we were freely able to express out doubts in, and not have them subject to hyperbolic extremes, invalidated or dismissed, then to have them subject to that exact response; is offensive. None of us are fogen supporters.

      The Professor has been so generous as too provide ALL of us with a space to comment on the trial and legal issues in particular, as long as it’s done respectfully to others. It’s not an echo chamber. It’s supposed to be an area of debate and discussion regarding those matters where people can express their opinions, fears, trepidations, and matters they feel are a genuine subject for debate in a legal sense. NOT to have their opinions invalidated because you don’t feel they’re valuable, as erudite as you are, or what you agree with. Some people even choose to vent here (empathizing w/Sybrina, crying during the teacher’s testimony, being moved unbearably by Trayvon’s 18th birthday and the anniversary of his murder). If YOU don’t think their opinions are valuable, scroll past them. But, pontificating in some major all-inclusive, generalized post about how many “don’t realise what the case in chief is not the time to do this” when the professor has CLEARLY stated otherwise, is presumptuous.

      “In its case-in-chief, the State’s lawers call witnesses and introduce evidence. They don’t wander around pontificating to the jury and presenting what they think happened and how, say, blood can’t defy gravity, or that the Z blood on the bottom of Trayvon’s sweatshirt “proves” Z was holding onto him, therefore the stretched fabric and so the misalignment. THAT IS PART OF THE CLOSING when everything is brought together… carrying on and bashing the State for not doing things you think they should have done not realizing that the case-in-chief is not the time to do this.”

      Second, the prosecution always ends its case-in-chief with what we call a wind-up or summary witness who ties everything together with the aid of charts, graphs and timelines that bring the evidence into focus. I am anticipating that FDLE Detective Gilbreath will be the witness and Bernie de la Rionda will ask the questions that steers him through the maze and haze.
      Frederick Leatherman says:
      July 5, 2013 at 2:20 pm
      State’s going to rest without a windup witness.

      I disagree with that move.”


    • Trained Observer says:

      Nef — Your dismay noted. Actually, I think there’s quite a bit of tolerance here for assorted theories and variations on finer points based on established facts.

      Where it gets vexing is when some troll or individual just woefully behind and/or uninformed comes parachuting in with irrelevant (at this juncture) distractions in making silly statements like “Shellie is a nurse” or “Trayvon had a gun.”

      Distracting junk like that serves no purpose other than to annoy …

      Far more encouraging, IMO, is how different posters seize and parse on varying aspects of the case to help put together the puzzle of what really happened and how it should be dealt with at trial. Even more inspiring is how the State, knowing more than we do, has built its murder case against Fogen, brick by brick.

      During daily testimony this past two weeks, the diversity of what rang bells with each of us hearing the same info at the same time has been remarkable and key. Similarly, each juror also will react to this same testimony, zeroing into what individually grabs their attention.

      I tune out on the address stuff, although I know many feel Fogen’s tales on that are important. Yet I’m all ears on who called or texted who before and after the shot. It’s a fair assumption Smith failed to approach the murder scene with his gun drawn,as per protocol, because he knew Fogen had offed his suspect. Others on this board are far more into trajectory of the hollow point.

      So Nef, I’m thinking this forthcoming week will allow you to dial back on the dismay and consternation and will enable us all to reap fruits of our collective study, research, debate, and healthy argumentation on this Leatherman blog. Onward.

      • Nef05 says:

        TO – I wasn’t the one attempting to “stifle” debate and healthy argumentation. Would you like quotes?

        I wasn’t the one who showed intolerance for assorted theories, and variations on finer facts. Would you like quotes?

        I don’t have a problem with people who parse and come up with various aspects? Would you like quotes?

        Why on EARTH, am I being “handled” when the person who actually said these things, implied other things, and telling other people what they should think, according to HIS perspective.
        Would you like quotes?

        Let HIM dial back – I was perfectly fine until he started telling people what they should think, how they should post, and implying that HE has the only definitive opinion. But, I should dial back, because I object to such blatant control issues? Really?

        By the way – I was ONE of those who was upset about the prosecution’s presentation. He was talking about ME, among others. Not a single person said jack to him – but I’M wrong.

      • Malisha says:

        TO, the person who said “Trayvon had a gun” meant “Trayvon did not have a gun.” The sense of the sentence and the context of the point they were making — shows this was a typo, not a real mistake. I understood it that way, anyway. I forgot who it was, but they meant FOGEN knew that Trayvon did NOT have a gun.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Malisha, did they? Same person in same post stated Shellie is a nurse … and when told “no” by more than one poster/responder, came back by insisting she’s a “student nurse.”

          (Also wrong, and truly an insult to nurses and student nurses around the world.)

          During most of the stalking, Fogen wouldn’t have known whetherTrayvon was not armed until frisky him late in the fracas . As twisted as Fogen’s mind is, he may have fantasized that he was. None of us knows, so that was not what was being suggested in the post. .

          At any rate, I get suspicious of those who casually drop in misinformation (a la O’Mara and West), which serves to confuse or to allow someone else to say “Well, I read in the Leatherman blog that Shellie was a nurse and Trayvon had a gun.” … Just a distracting, vexing occurence.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ I thoroughly concur. I can name a few such “word droppers”.


          • aussie says:

            Some people have not spent their whole past year examining every piece of evidence. They are bound to have a few points they’ve glossed over. Like whether Shellie was a nurse or not. IMMATERIAL little side issues, really.

            You know how often I’ve seen it asked, how was GZ going shopping with no money on him? using this to “prove” he wasn’t going shopping at all. When (1) it does not PROVE it and (b) he did have a wallet which wasn’t taken off him for evidence. But I keep telling people this and they keep saying ‘He had no money how could he be going shopping”. Another side issue, really. But shows how many people here have NOT read every word, not did the math on every log, not mapped the timelines.

            So what?

            They still somehow ended up with the RIGHT STORY. Ended up with ENOUGH facts to see that GZ is not telling the truth. Ended up totally discounting the GZ camp’s lies against Trayvon NOT ONLY because they are blatantly disgusting demonisation, but because the FACTUAL EVIDENCE proves those stories wrong.

            Give people a pass if they don’t know about Shellie’s non-nursing or GZ’s calling the cops on his landlord. Really these minor points don’t matter.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I see nothing wrong with Puck’s post. He / she is a respected poster with some very cogent arguments. The post you point to expresses some valid concerns and is well developed. It doesn’t personally attack anyone.

      I’m more concerned with people who post their wild theories as fact without actually checking the facts and who spend most of their time calling Fogen and his family ugly names. Some of these people will personally attack you if you call them on it, questioning your support.

      I appreciate that these are TM supporters, but come on . . . how much value is there in that behavior? I do appreciate that people need a forum to vent in and that we’ve probably at one time or another flung some ish around in our frustration with Fogen and his defense team.

      • Nef05 says:

        And so are most of us, to whom his comments referred.

        “Many are flipping out that the State didn’t show or prove or talk about this or that bit that we’ve figured out, and that that means it’s all over.:” (flipping out = personal attack)

        It’s invalidating and belittling their concerns they’ve expressed regarding the prosecution’s presentation. There were hardly any trolls this week as you know. Certainly not enough to be called “many”.

        “THAT IS PART OF THE CLOSING when everything is brought together… carrying on and bashing the State for not doing things you think they should have done not realizing that the case-in-chief is not the time to do this.” (bashing the state = personal attack)

        First of all – WRONG! And “who” is he to say that? Let’s not even deal with the Prof saying Th/Fr about a summary witness who would do EXACTLY the tie-in he thinks is solely relegated to the closing. What about those of us who actually read the professor’s articles, have some informed opinions and would like to express them in the section the Professor and C-S provided? Who is he to stifle our informed opinions? Start his own darn blog.

        How much value is there in telling other posters what opinions they should and should not form/express, based on his, which is flawed from jump.

        It was nonsense. He criticized others for mentioning blood flow and bullet hole misalignment, major forensics. Then he was happy to add buttons and pinpricks, as important from HIS perspective to make a “bare bones case” (Because apparently blood flow and bullet hole misalignment wouldn’t make a “bare bones case”, you see.). You may feel it was valid. I have no problem with your opinion, because it’s yours and you’re entitled to express it. I, however, do not feel it was valid. That’s my opinion.

        • Puck says:

          I waffle as to whether to respond or let this go even as I type this. I’m done with being adversarial in my replies to your blistering comments.

          Nef, I’ve always liked you, we’ve had some good if brief exchanges here, and I don’t want that to change. And I will admit that perhaps my choice of words wasn’t the best in places. But the point of my writing the original comment — which, again, most of those who commented understood — was to acknowledge my understanding of the very justified concerns of “many” here, and try and offer a measure of reassurance in my own way, from my own perspective as a sociologist with paritcular expertise in social psychology. Perhaps this perspective makes me come off as a bit dispassionate, aloof, or even snobbish. I’m sure you can think of other adjectives, but I really don’t think you need to reply to this with these to further vilify me. (You also directly implied I was a troll.) You and others speak of how everyone here brings their own unique perspective and opinions and talents to this board. Does that apply to everyone except me? And I am no Unitron.

          My comment on the state not having really rested should be clear now after two or three clarifications. I refer to “resting a case” in the misinterpreted colloquial sense of the state being done. They’re not. I don’t think I need to explain what I meant yet another time.

          But your last comment seems to really amp up my mention of things like the button and the nose pricks as if I were dismissing the blood flow and bullet hole misalignment. I never did that. Yes, perhaps the state could have asked Rao or Bao if to their knowledge blood can defy gravity — a question that would have been objected to and sustained, but would have rung a bell. I, too, was hoping for that. However, the notion that since it (or whatever else) didn’t come up in the case-in-chief means the state lost their chance to make those arguments is what I was trying to dispel by reminding people that there are things that WE (even I) think the state should have brought up that are in fact either improper for a case-in-chief or can still be argued and demonstrated. That’s really the essence of the entire original offending (to you and Sophia33 at least) post: yes, it’s okay to worry that these things might not be explored at all, but we should at least try to have some measure of confidence that since many of these things were indeed mentioned, some along with direct evidence introduced, yet not yet explained, that they will be. And those who commented on my original post — except you — understood that. I want you to understand what I meant too, so that we can get on with watching and discussing the trial within the very safe refuge of this blog, our community, our vibrant collective sanctuary from the cesspit of the pro-GZ virtual community. I am as grateful to have found this place as everyone else.

          • Malisha says:

            I wish the state had put on two more witnesses before resting: Galbreath or someone else from FDLE and definitely a physiologist to point out that it is not possible for a person to DO what Fogen claims he did while being pounded to death.

            But they know their case and their plan and (a) maybe it’s a better one than I can perceive at this time and/or (b) if they really ARE trying to throw the case there is not a damn thing I can do about it or ever could have done about it; that expresses my full realization of my helplessness in the world. Which sometimes makes me wish I had a gun with 7 bullets in it, but only fleetingly and only in the worst moments.

          • Puck says:

            Indeed, I was shocked that Gilbreath or someone else from FDLE wasn’t called. That could be an indication of the state thring to throw the case, but it could also indicate that they didn’t feel that was necessary because what they have for rebuttal and closing does whatever an FDLE witness could have but better.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I don’t see any problem with anyone giving their general opinion even if it opposes others’ opinions. I don’t see Puck putting out personal attacks and don’t see why anyone else who feels the opposite way that Puck does would even care.

            Don’t see any point in getting too attached to one’s stance because ultimately we’re all here to support Trayvon and we’re all ultimately from various walks of life, etc. We’re bound to hold some different worldviews and to see things differently.

            As long as someone states their differences civilly, it should be enough to counter an opinion civilly if you feel inclined to argue. It shouldn’t be personal.

        • bellesouth says:

          “(flipping out = personal attack)”
          “(bashing the state = personal attack)”
          These are in- the-eyes-of-the-beholder kind of arguments. I have not seen any evidence of Puck admonishing. I thought he was trying to be a bit comforting. So like I said. It’s all in the eyes of the beholder, from here anyway.

          I am interested though. Can the state bring out rebuttal witnesses after the defense has rested? In any case, I agree with Puck that the closing arguments will be a perfect place
          to tie everything together because everything they need to prove their case is in evidence. Mantei could lay it out like he did except he doesn’t have to use case law. He can only use what is in evidence. The facts lead straight to 2nd degree murder, IMO.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I took it more as a comforting remark than a bashing remark.

          • cielo62 says:

            Two Sides/ as did I. There are several folks I could name who have loud and negative reactions to many things. We all need to hang tight.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • whonoze says:


        I think your general concerns about group-think and tolerance here are well taken. I hope we can focus on the big picture, rather than your specific complaints with Puck’s comment, which it seems to me you misinterpreted. If I might attempt a bit of ironic levity: it seems there’s been a series of bad posts in out virtual neighborhood, and the assholes have been getting away with it, and Puck just happened to be walking through the blog at the moment you got as mad as hell and couldn’t take it anymore.

        It’s my feeling that folks here are way too eager to label anyone who departs from the consensus perspectives as trolls or zidiots. Tasha recently got severely trashed for her negativity. I have been pilloried several times for daring to suggest that TM was not a saint, but rather a typical teenage kid with typical teenage ‘issues’.

        I’m 100% behind your larger point that different perspectives and the people who present them should not just be tolerated but valued, as long as those people are offering their views with honesty and respect.

        As for Puck’s post, I honestly took him not to be ripping on commenters who are worried about the case at this point, but attempting to cheer them up — to help them feel better, not worse. Until a certain critical mass of ill-will becomes apparent, we probably ought to assume that post are made with good intentions.

        I don’t really know what Puck means by saying “I am no Unitron.” (Of course, I could say that would be self-evident since only Unitron is Unitron.) But to your point about tolerance, I believe Unitron should not have been banned here. Unitron is not a Tree Nut. He is a contrarian, a skeptic, a devil’s advocate, a gadfly. He’s a stickler for facts, and he pokes sticks into factual errors, poorly supported arguments, and purely emotional declarations. That can be annoying, but it’s actually more helpful than destructive, IMHO

        So, as we used to say in the 60s, man…



        • Nef05 says:

          Peace, Whonoze. Thank you for posting. I didn’t know Uni had been banned. I only knew I saw him a couple months ago in the outhouse, so I figured he went back home.

          Deuces 🙂

          • whonoze says:

            Unitron is very guarded about what he actually thinks. Like I said, he plays devils advocate. Just because he critiques a post, doesn’t mean he thinks the idea is wrong, just poorly supported, mistaken in facts, possibly hypocritical, and so on. The only opinion of his own I can recall him ever expressing was utter contempt for the CTH. (That said, he seems to be on decent terms with the TalkLeft forum gang…)

            I think he got bounced here for taking a few too many digs at Prof. Leatherman for things FL wrote that Uni considered hypocritical in light of the Prof.’s previous posts. Uni did seem to have a bug up his ass about Prof. Fred, and things were getting kinda personal…

            I’m pretty sure that wherever Unitron calls home intellectually, only Unitron is in occupancy. He may indeed have gone back there, since I haven’t seen him post anywhere in awhile…

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I liked Unitron’s playing devil’s advocate for a long time until I realized that he does it everywhere and with everyone – that might be useful , but it can also be a sign of a player who feels superior to everyone and likes to stir up shit wherever he or she goes. I can see why Prof banned him / her.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            unitron seems to play Star Trek’s “Data” role.

        • Judy75201 says:

          I approve of this post.

    • Sophia33 says:

      BRAVO! Nef! Very well said and thank you!

      Having been on the receiving end of this kind of behavior, your post is greatly appreciated.

      I also appreciate the fact that you point out that we are a diverse group of people. I hit on one issue included in that diversity, which is the perspective of race. I am not speaking for every person who has expressed concerns or for every African American person, but simply presenting ONE POSSIBLE perspective.

      Type1juve responded to me when I was being called a troll and mentioned that many of the posters that she/he believes are African American are at times a bit more skeptical. From my vantage point, this skepticism comes out of the experiences that many of us have had with the justice system. I have tried to express that perspective, as I see it, on numerous occasions, even on the night I was repeatedly being called a troll. I pointed to the Aiyana Jones case, which seemed very clear cut, and the hung jury that resulted just two weeks ago.

      Just because you have concerns about the prosecution’s case does NOT mean that you lack support of the prosecution or that you don’t want to see justice for Trayvon Martin. I also have expressed that sentiment numerous times. But there is an element that either does not want to understand that or is unable to understand that.

      I thank you for speaking up. Some of the posters that you listed, I see them fighting it out with the real trolls on HP. They have been doing so since this case began. I know them NOT to be trolls and I know them to be passionate about getting justice for Trayvon. From what I heard about what is going on with TalkLeft, there appears to be an element on here that wants to behave the same way by excluding, or even asking the professor to remove people from this blog, who don’t express their sentiments the same way they feel that they should.

      This kind of behavior would be viewed by many in my academic discipline as intellectually dishonest in an attempt to create a groupthink atmosphere.

      As I have said before, I think the best approach for us would be to have compassion and understanding for the various perspectives of those who desire the same outcome – a guilty verdict for Fogen!

      I know I have done this, by looking at it from the perspective of those attacking by saying that they are speaking about the energy we put out into the universe. As I said last week, thoughts and words do have power. As such, I have tried to focus my energy in my posts to the shared desired outcome of the members of this blog in visualizing the following words being read by the jury foreperson: “We the jury in the above and titled action find George Michael Zimmerman GUILTY of murder in the second degree”.

      That said, I still think that others should be able to express their concerns without being attacked, called names or implying that they should be removed from the blog.

      Again Nef, I think appreciate your post because browbeating people into a groupthink mentality is not conducive to a positive flow of energy either.

      • Nef05 says:

        Absolutely, Sophia. And if you know me from there you know I have no compunction about going “there” with the socks and trolls.

        HERE is a different matter. The Prof and C-S make a huge effort to make it welcoming to everyone. That’s why I dislike seeing people bullied by those who don’t agree with them. I have been trying to be good. I really, really, REALLY have – that kind of thing just drives me nuts.

        I did have a big blowout with a guy about 5 months ago, but he was a troll and ended up posting at the Treehouse – so I don’t feel so bad.

        I have respect for the site, the Prof, C-S – and I listen to both of them, without question. Pretty much Xena, too, because I owe her really big, HUGE! Everyone else I just enjoy reading and responding to.

      • sadlyyes says:

        agreed,when i made a modest proposal,of starting an educational fund for DeeDee,with my OWN money,i was accused of wanting to fufill my personal ambitions….sheesh
        That is why i prefer rescuing animals who appreciate my efforts

      • Malisha says:

        Sophia was addressing Puck. I don’t know why these comments get all higgeldy squiggeldy; I’m not trying to steal thunder.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think some of the posters that annoy me with all their unvarnished venom toward Fogen and his family may be posters who like to do battle at sites like HP and bring that to the table here.

        I salute them – it is annoying to read, but they have a special job to do. Like Trent, whom I consider an angel with a potty mouth.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Kool! I’m part of a clique. : )

      • Nef05 says:


      • colin black says:

        There is no cliqe nor any mystique when like minds meet.

        No need to be discreet when a pheonmia like foggage forces us to greet…=cry.

        In here there are no elete just orginary folks that greet each day as a blessing a treat.

        People not sheeple whom when injustice they meet will use there words as feet to march .

        An fight for the right for all to walk in the night in the sun in the rain .

        An should never feel pain inflicted an TORTURE languge so profane ..

        Inflicted by an empty insane foggagge so green so sparse an so mean.

        A hollow pointless empty visage that chameleon like reflects an changes the texture of his lies.

        An often takes DEEP SIGHS..to mimick he cares that A CHILD DIED.

        An he lied an tried to make the police accept this CHILD WAS SUSPECT.

        Although suspect of what he new nought no matter how long he thought.

        He used his eyes to look around an environment he had found a predeter on the pound

        Looking for a VICTIM with a chambered live round.


        An ended up on the ground dead frorm tha live round .

        Also now under the ground because foggagges mind is unsound.

        This foggagge so vain that despite of the pain he inflicted again an again.

        Took our LORDS NAME IN VAIN to justify his disdain.

        R I P Trayvon Benjim Martin….Times a comeing an there an Auld Scots saying

        Whats for you shall not go by you.

        An Punishment is whats comeing for foggage .

        No penance no redemption both those emotions an endevours to attain them are beyond this self confesed full of excrement constipated anall retentive personalty Ive ever seen or heard.

        This foggagge creature is so annal he doesn’t even want to part with a penny or an emotion or even his own solid waste produce.

        He wants to keep hold off………………………….

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think we all experience ups and downs as the trial progresses.

      This is to be expected.

      What is great is that if one of us is down, the rest of us can lift that person up with reassurance, understanding, validation, or an explanation of trial procedure.

      It is helpful to remember that something in the trial or its IMPLICATIONS can pierce to the heart some of our fellow posters because it reawakens a personal sad experience or a concern for the future safety of their very own children.

      There will be personal worries and fears as well as uplifting moments of smiles and calmness.

      Who wouldn’t want to just feel free and easy all the time?

      This state of mind is difficult to have right now when one realizes the far reaching implications that the verdict will have on our society.

      You know, this just reminded me of some lyrics from this song:

      >I might see you smiling
      When it’s plain to me and Jamie
      That your life has brought you places.
      Where your mind can make you happy.

      Where you thoughts don’t drive you crazy
      They just flow free and easy.
      And I know And I know

      I know that we’ve go to
      Meet on the mountain.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • Sophia33 says:

        “It is helpful to remember that something in the trial or its IMPLICATIONS can pierce to the heart some of our fellow posters because it reawakens a personal sad experience or a concern for the future safety of their very own children.”

        Exactly YAHTC!

    • type1juve says:

      Thank you for this post! Many times I have chosen not to post my opinion for fear of being accused of being a troll. For the record, I am just as committed as anyone here to justice for TM. In fact, maybe more so than others because I do have a dog in this fight. I have 2 children (19 and 26) and I have had to have the “talk” with them. As a mother it pains me to have to do so, but as we see in this case it is necessary. It is my hope that we can all continue to discuss this case and treat each other with respect, though we may have differing opinions.

      • Nef05 says:

        I hear you type1juve. Thanks for letting us know how you feel. The Prof and C-S are wonderful people, not in the least judgemental. Go ahead and post those opinions. Funny thing when I do that, I find people I didn’t realise agree with me. Just like now, with me and you. Go ahead and speak your mind.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I, too, want to hear your opinions, type1juve.

      • Sophia33 says:

        And I thank you for your comments Type1juve. I also thank you for your support.

    • pat deadder says:

      Nef I can’t type your whole comment about disagreements but personally I like different perspectives.I remember months ago I said fogen told Singleton he walked through the dog path and as I understood the dog walk to be south on the T.Only Whonoze defended me.So I have a soft spot for Whonoze.Isn’t that what jurors are supposed to do go back and forth on how they interpret evidence.I once said imho the prosecutors did a very bad job in the Anthony case but if I had come here and read comments my mind might have been changed.Someone seemed to think that was ridiculous that my mind could be changed by other opinions.I like everyone’s contribution as long as no one gets angry about a different one than their own.But don’t want treehouse people here.

      • Nef05 says:

        Nope, don’t want any treehouse people! But, I agree with your whole different perspectives. It can make you look at something in a new way, and say – okay, maybe that happened, or, no – that couldn’t possibly happen. 🙂

  59. Soulcatcher says:

    opps sorry, they ask him if he still wants to meet with an officer

  60. Tee says:

    Tell me anyone, why the NEN never got the suppose address that he went to get. You see how that fool looked to his left to say that there was no addresses because this is the back of the homes but wouldnt look right because this fool know that he is standing right in by the front of all them homes with all their addresses facing the street. No police officer called him on it, I call BS on them.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      He looks like a fool to suggest he was going to look for an address in the first place. They never asked him for one. He also says when he tells nen that he doesn’t see him anymore, they asked him if They never asked him that, and the fool even answers.

      • MedicineBear says:

        He totally looks like a fool — but how stoopit does that make the tools who are swallowing this BS?

        I don’t know why there has ever been a serious consideration of his many “address” lies — NONE of them make ANY rational sense!

        1) The NEN dispatcher asked where his shtruck was parked — IT WASN”T PARKED ON RVC where he said he went “for an address”
        2) fogen was STILL ON THE LINE WTH NEN WHEN HE GOT TO RVC (according to his own recorded words in reenactment) and yet didn’t give the address to NEN
        3) fogen “couldn’t remember the street name” of TTL — so he went over to RVC (the street he lives on and COULD remember) “to find a STREETSIGN”!!!

        *sputter*fluffle*sputter* arrrrrrrfggggggh . . . I can’t bear to list any more or I’ll blow a gasket.

        WTF?!! He says he “forgot” the street name of TTL and went over to RVC to find the street sign for TTL?! WHY does this lame-azz flaming nuclear LIE continue to be brought up?

        fogen doesn’t tell good lies, or clever lies, or believable lies — he tells FREDDY KRUEGER LIES. They just won’t die!

      • Malisha says:

        He didn’t realize the NEN call was going to be recorded; he thinks the universe has to fall in line in agreement with his bullshit.

        • DruDo says:

          Malisha, you’re so right. It never ceases to amaze me that some think if it comes out of his mouth…well, gosh, it MUST be true! Although, in reality, even his screwball admirers know darned good and well he’s a liar, but they’re no different than he is, so it suits them.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      The SPD are the dumbest bunch of S.o.b.’s alive. Allow me to vent for a spell please. What was the purpose of taking him back to the scene to retrace his steps and then fail to have him reenact exactly what happened based on the NEN call? -If they really wanted to know the truth they let him drive and play the NEN call and have him show them exactly what happened based on the recorded tape. They match that to what he told Det. Singleton and then promptly take his birch ass to jail. Case closed!

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Meant bitchass lol

      • bettykath says:

        What the walk-thru did is give fogen the chance to spin another tale. It seems that fogen didn’t know the nen call was recorded so he spun his tale when some things he had previously said didn’t add up, e.g. “he jumped out of the bushes” but there are no bushes, the suspect said, blah blah, and hit my wittle nose and knocked me down but this is a long way from where Trayvon ended up. SPD did it right. Serino and Singleton both thought he wasn’t telling the truth so they gave him another chance. He told more fibs. It makes the case against him even stronger.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          I’m saying if they had made him do a real reenactment, they would have seen right away that his timeline didn’t add up and Chief Lee would have been even more hard pressed to explain why Fogen was set free. His location per the NEN call is IMPOSSIBLE to explain away. He jumped out of his car near the mailboxes and a true walk thru with the NEN call would have shown that clearly. It also would have smashed the TM circled his car lie as well made Fogen explain why 1 min and 23 secs after he exits his car hes asked for an address and his response was he didn’t know. They didn’t properly use his own recorded voice against him and that’s inexcusable.

          • DruDo says:

            “It also would have smashed the TM circled his car lie”
            Exactly. It’s beyond ridiculous that TM would have circled his car, then ran. That makes absolutely no sense.

      • Malisha says:

        Their purpose was to AVOID taking his a55 to jail; from the beginning, that was their purpose.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It was mentioned by BDLR during Serino’s testimony, thank goodness.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Just an excuse to wander. SPD knew the area, knew the clubhouse address, could probably pull the addresses and names of most everyone in RTL. And Fogen damn well knows it too.

  61. Tee says:

    I believe that the defense think that we Americans are stupid. I must admit that some of us definitely are those that try to justify why it is ok to follow a kid at night, Its never ok to follow a kid, never! These lying azz people know that they themselves would be scared shitless if someone was driving behind them then got out and continued following on foot. Imagine how a kid would feel, imagine how your 17 yr old daughter would feel, boys get scared too. His lying ass won’t come near that witness stand!

  62. Elizabeth says:

    Here is something that just occurred to me (while relistening to an LLMPapa Vid. of Zimmerman Senior at the link LonnieStar provided in previous thread) about the whole needing
    to get an address to give to the police so they can meet him when
    they arrive.
    So after he stopped following Trayvon he walked to the next street
    over of which he did know the name got an address and started to walk back to his vehicle.
    So he could tell them where he is at?
    If he is going to be back at his vehicle which is NOT at the address
    he just got that just doesn’t make sense at all.
    Sorry to rehash again just lurking as usual from the city of amsterdam.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      @Elizabeth, I’ve made that same comment before. It makes no sense. He also says another time, that he’s sujppose to meet with an officer that he called. What officer is that, and why then if your suppose to meet with him there, why are you walking back to your shruck? We all know he got out of his truck when he said oh shit hes running, to get the asshole, he wasn’t going to get away this time. He’s angry, fucking coon (or punk if that’s what you hear).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Exactly, Soulcatcher, after he supposedly said that he would not follow anymore, it DID indicate to the NEN dispatcher that he would NOT meet the arriving police at his truck.

        It was simply, “Could you have them call me, and I will tell them where I am at?” And the dispatcher told him “Yes.”

        This invalidates his excuse that he was going back to his truck.

        • degraveegmailcom says:

          To me it invalidates he was looking for an addres.
          No, he continued to follow hence ” Oh shit the n…behind me”
          And within 3 minutes TM was blasted straight through the
          Does anybody think Defendant would have been found dead
          at the scene if he hadn’t killed trayvon?
          No way! And he heard and saw people around while Trayvon was
          still alive so that should have greatly diminished defendants fear for his life.Very unreasonable to pull out a gun let alone fire it.
          Not opinion, fact.

          • Rachael says:

            I absolutely do NOT believe he would have been found dead or even “injured” further because none of that was happening. GZ says he was calling for help but no one would come. Why weren’t people “actively” helping you George? Because you had a kid at gunpoint. We can hear him screaming, saying “I don’t know.” What were you asking him? Why did people run inside and call 911 instead of helping you GZ? Maybe because you didn’t need any “help?” Maybe because they went to “passively” ask for help because you had a gun on a kid and they were afraid of YOU – afraid you might shoot them?

    • Tzar says:

      he also never gives the address to anyone
      so why was he going to get it again?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        tzar says

        he also never gives the address to anyone
        so why was he going to get it again?

        i believe it was aussie who summed this up succinctly, many months ago and which i can only paraphrase

        so, the defendant gets out of his vehicle to obtain an address, for which he was not asked, at which no ‘action’ was taking place, and which he never relayed to dispatch.

        at that point, one must begin to consider the motives of mr. defendant and ask if this is a self-serving lie.

    • PYorck says:

      There is also the issue that the T is a very important location now, but it wasn’t at the time.

      How was that supposed to go?

      “Officer, here is the house number of a random house way over there on the other side of the block where I lost sight of the vaguely suspicious guy I encountered a quarter mile away.” — “Thanks… I guess.”

      • colin black says:

        Walking over to get a street name an address three streets in the retreat.

        An the street he alleges he walked over to was the one he lived/squatted on?

        Lies I hate liars that insult the listners intelegence from the mouth of an imbicile..

      • Malisha says:

        I made a comment on a previous thread that Fogen was going to find a house number where “the suspect” wasn’t! Great idea! I could have easily given all the cops in the world a house number where “the suspect” wasn’t: 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC. Problem solved. Homie.

    • colin black says:

      My third Favourate City in the World After Edinburgh..New Dehli

      Love Centre Strasse an the Hillside Blues coffee shop.

      Named after the old tv show.

      An the shop all you can eat an help yourdelf buffet 5 euro breakfasts.ect used to make up sandwiches for the entire day .Love LOve Love Amsterdam an Rotterdam isn’t to shabby either

      Infact I love the Dutch full stop.

      Bet your none to enamoured with the Brits an there boorish drunken behaviour though.

      • sadlyyes says:

        favorite city Venice,St.Marks sq.Any little sq.South of France,Love Edinb.too,New Delhi,but too spread out,so how abou tPink City Jaipur?Holland has most wunderfull,Indonesian food Rice Table,and pannenkoeken….well when the worlds at peace…it can be a beautiful place….eh?

    • pat deadder says:

      Why didn’t he give the address he got from rvc to the dispatcher if that’s what he went there to get.What bs.

  63. DruDo says:

    I can’t sleep because this is weighing so heavily on my mind. I don’t believe he’ll take the stand, either. He’s a coward. I also don’t believe he’ll be acquitted. He said he was not afraid of TM. He said he didn’t believe TM had a weapon. He deliberately got out of his vehicle and followed TM after being advised not to. Trayvon ran from him. Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, other than looking “suspicious” to CAC. Wearing a hoodie in the rain is NOT “suspicious”, especially to mothers. His “justifications” for killing Trayvon are obviously now non-existent. He lied about his “injuries” and that’s now very apparent to anyone with half a brain. Why lie if not to attempt to justify killing a kid? The screams SOUND like a kid, not an adult grown man. He had no REASON to kill Trayvon. He has been shown to be aggressive and violent towards women, law enforcement and and animals. The jury is made up of women, two whom are animal rescuers, five are mothers. If I were on that jury, I’d also be thinking that he fired a gun in the midst of and extremely close to occupied residences and obviously didn’t care. I’d also be thinking he was pissed off and in a hostile mood right off the bat. The jury may surprise a lot of people. Although, I can’t help but think about how easily Casey Anthony walked out of that courtroom free as a bird, so yes, I’m worried. I’m hoping the jury thinks about the plain, simple facts and the seemingly endless minute details will boil down to common sense and logic.

    • Xena says:


      Although, I can’t help but think about how easily Casey Anthony walked out of that courtroom free as a bird, so yes, I’m worried.

      Don’t worry.
      Casey said she didn’t kill her daughter. The State had circumstantial, but no direct evidence. As Mantei said in court Friday, GZ’s case is not a “who done it” case.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        Casey said Zanny the Nanny kidnapped her, and went as far as to make up a couple of dozen people who never exsisted. There was so much circumstantial evidence, there should have been no question Casey did it. The problem is as the one jurior stated, she didn’t believe it was their duty to “connect all the dots,” and that the prosecution was required to answer every question about Caylee’s death, including why and how it was committed.

        Yes it was their job to connect the dots, but that would require them to spend time to do so, and they found it easier to believe it was an accident. Had they done their job and connected the dots, instead of thinking they had the right to expect it had to be laid out on a platter for them, and explain everthing, including things that wern’t required from the prosacution, Casey would have been found guilty. They wanted to go home.

        I must have argued for days to an investigative reporter who wrote an article in favor for the jury. I said look at all her lies, and her reponse was a liar doesn’t mean she’s a killer. We came to a truse, and both stood by our beliefs. I said if in the future, what I thought was going to happen, didn’t, I would discuss it further. I won, I did happen.

        • DruDo says:

          Soul, I agree, and also consider this: the U.S. Supreme Court has stated in Holland v. United States that “circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence” Thus, the distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence has little practical effect in the presentation or admissibility of evidence in trials. I don’t think juries are thoroughly advised that the circumstances are often as, if not more, valid as direct evidence. There was more than enough circumstantial evidence to convict CA, and, as terrible as this sounds, I believe if CA had been a black woman, there would have been a conviction without hesitation. As far as GZ is concerned, he readily admitted to killing Trayvon, but has lied repeatedly about the circumstances. Hopefully, the jury will use common sense and logic and send him to prison for a very long time.

      • DruDo says:

        Xena, my concern comes from the fact that it’s the same area, only miles apart, where it seems that the mindset of many is that it’s ok to not even arrest the murderer of a young black boy until practically forced to do so by a petition signed by thousands demanding GZ’s arrest. There seems to be an apathetic attitude towards justice for a black person, particularly in that area, regardless of the circumstances. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

    • Malisha says:

      Casey Anthony did not admit to killing her baby.
      Fogen admits to killing Trayvon Martin.
      Only his motive is at issue.

      • Malisha says:

        And of all the motives in the world, self-defense is the second least likely.

        What’s “least likely” you ask?

        A lover’s quarrel.

  64. aussie says:

    He’s been taking notes. For the first time ever,he’s seen all his stories laid out in the space of a few days. He’s seen what the prosecution has picked as discrepancies.

    He could get on the stand, with the advantage of having had two weeks to make up a story. Other times he only had 2 minutes or 2 hours. NOT FAIR. Get up and tell a story that is the same in broad outlines. Say yes back then I said XYZ but then I was in shock or people confused me by suggesting things, putting words in my mouth, or I’d had no sleep (yep his phone records will show that) and was in shock, NO I had PTSD actually (to go with ADD and IBS and the rest of the alphabet he suffers from).

    And so tell a story that explains away or excuses the discrepancies. So he can’t be crossed or impeached on those.

    And that leaves just the important bit — that he did get bashed enough to fear for his life. Well yeah, by then he was shit scared and really terrified. Well no, he had NOT followed and stalked Trayvon. True this didn’t happen at the T. But he’d lost him, he was long gone. And while trying to get that lousy tactical flashlight going he noticed something else, something totally unrelated, that needed checking out. Which up to now he’d forgotten about from the shock of the attack. Like something that looked like a dog (he loves dogs and this one looked like in trouble) or someone’s porch door open when the lights were off so they weren’t home or something, to make him go down the doggie path. Maybe he actually followed a stray looking dog down there. (YEAH the one that boy had that he said he was walking there???)

    So. Totally forgetting about Trayvon, believing him to be long gone, he follows a stray dog down the path. What the heck, he’s already soaked, may as well do his duty some more. And then POUNCE from the bushes. Down there there’s bigger bushes, in the cut-throughs between buildings. He nearly shits himself from the unexpected attack, so that makes him feel it’s worse than it really is. HE sees a flash of something in the hands, too, only later now realises it must have just been the phone, it looked like a weapon.

    HELP HELP HELP but no-one came. One guy offered to call the cops but that didn’t help get this attacker off him, he was sure to be dead by the time they get here. Running out of time, like he told Hannity.

    CRY, BIG tears. Accept kleenex from MOM, not use his sleeve for a change. Thought would never see my beloved Shellie, Mom, Papa etc etc etc ever again. Bury face in hands. Still can’t really believe I survived. Still can’t really believe I was forced to kill somebody for it.

    On cross? the discrepancies he’s already explained away, he hopes that’s the end of those, they won’t be crossed. Well, yeah, didn’t really trust the police to tell them this, after the first one where he made mistakes from shock, didn’t think they’d believe him. Can’t really trust them (remember the ride-along??) that’s one reason he decided better to be a judge not a cop.

    The fight? the minor injuries? well, they FELT REAL BAD and the suddenness of it made them feel even worse. TRIED to fight back but kept trying to grab the arms but kept missing. FINALLY managed to grab one wrist and twist around enough to grab THE gun. Didn’t go to hospital because so relieved to be still alive, thought was going to be okay. Only later at home realised how bad he was. All a slow-motion nightmare after that, knows acted normal but can’t even remember the drive to the station. (Conveniently, so can’t recall any convo with Smith, either).

    More big tears. Big embarrassed grimace. “Maybe I’m a coward, much as I hate to admit it, but I was shit scared. Terrified. Really really sorry to cause all this trouble, just from embarrassment at owning up to not being brave.”

    ~~~ Aussie, scriptwriter to the stars. (ok ok, to the black holes then?)

    And nobody will believe one damn word of it, not even those who’ve not already read this.

    On cross he’ll get angry and bullying, alternating with petulant, that they dare ask about things he’s already explained away. But instead of “can’t remember” he’ll keep saying ” too terrified, was trying not to take it all in.”

    Still nobody will believe a word of it, outside of CTH and similar.

    The tears will be real when they put the handcuffs on. .

    • aussie says:

      oh, forgot. Gosh this writing lies is hard work. When he got jumped he didn’t even realise it was the same guy. He’d totally forgotten about him, was concentrating on the dog. He does have ADD you know. That means poor memory and SHORT ATTENTION SPAN.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      That is truly scary, Aussie, if he gets on the stand & says that, I’m gonna be sick!

    • My Forehead Tho says:


      That might be better than the show his uncle put on yesterday. If Fogen takes the stand, we all know what to expect when confronted with his inconsistencies:

      1. He’ll repeat his original answer as if it makes it more credible the second time

      2. When that doesn’t work, he try introduce more lies to explain those lies

      2. When that doesn’t work, he’ll develop amnesia

  65. Not Angela Lansbury says:

    Hope this is not off-topic, but I have much more confidence in the state’s case since hearing Mantei’s response to Fogen’s judgment of acquittal motion. Nevertheless, here’s some of the evidence I wish the state had introduced before closing:
    – Austin, the kid with the dog who heard the screams and saw Fogen on the ground ALONE (or obscuring sight of Trayvon, to show that their positions changed from when Jon Good saw them);
    – Fogen’s scream exemplar (help me! help me!) to contrast with the screams on the 911 tape;

    Perhaps we’ll see some of that in the state’s rebuttal case. What evidence, if any, do you all wish had been presented?

    • Nef05 says:

      I wish Serino had been asked about the conflict between fogen’s first three statements claiming he was dropped immediately at the T, and his knowledge of where the body and debris field was, at the actual crime scene. I wish Serino had been asked if he saw the conflict between where fogen said he first saw Trayvon, in the first interview – and the place he said he first saw Trayvon, in the subsequent interviews. I wish the fact that he had told Dt. Singleton AND his medical professional that the EMTs told him his nose was “broken” was debunked, by the EMT on the stand, with the report. I wish the testimony had shown that he refused EMT transportation according to the report, rather than allowing the EMT to state for the record “someone?” decided that he wouldn’t go, unless the SPD took him. I wish that it had been made evident that fogen had washed his hands, despite all evidence retention protocol.

      I wish the prosecution had stressed the lie that W13 had seen fogen on top of Trayvon, said he was going to call 911, and fogen said no. Since W13 always said he first saw fogen standing at the T where the key chain flashlight was conveniently found, and never mentions him on top of the body. I wish the conversation bet. Singleton and fogen regarding “authoriteh” as opposed to having to shoot in fear, had been brought out. I wish Jenna’s sworn statement of “what are you doing…, what are you…” which independently corroborates Rachel, had come out, along with her “following” Jr. on Twitter.. and more, including the two things you mentioned.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        Thanks, Nef. Yes, I agree the state could’ve done better with some of the witnesses. Hopefully, the defense resurrects them so the state can take a second crack.

    • Malisha says:

      Well I believe they can enter the exemplar “help me help me” now that uncle and mommy have testified that was Fogen screaming.

      • Not Angela Lansbury says:

        Very good point, Malisha. That testimony was actually what prompted my question. I found myself wishing the state had introduced Fogen’s screams in their own case so they could play it for uncle and mom during cross exam and ask them if they recognized *those* screams as well.

    • Leslie says:

      Can you tell me what Fogen stands for? Zimmerman, obviously, but why?

  66. Leslie says:

    Hi… My name is Leslie, and this is my first time commenting.

    I have always seen the evidence almost exactly as the prosecution has seen it and as Mr. Leatherman sees it. I have been involved in a very long (since the beginning) forum discussion about it that has received 12,000+ posts, but they have all been from a relatively small group of people dissecting it down to the atom.

    I only recently discovered this blog and was happy to see it.

    But here’s my problem: as I say, I see the incident as you do, I see the evidence as you do. But I’ve been listening and interacting with people who are just as, if not more passionate, in their belief that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. This discussion has included 4 or 5 lawyers, all of whom believe he will be acquitted.

    There are people participating who believe just as passionately as Mr. Leatherman that certain testimony and evidence has been great for the prosecution.

    But that’s in contrast to what I see as a huge number of people who see it precisely the opposite. I’ve also had a chance to really see very closely HOW people come to believe Zimmerman and it’s fairly straightforward: they think simplistically. Because the pieces that need to be pulled together to paint the picture are not as garish and plain and crude as “he was going to kill me-see the blood?- so I had to shoot him” AND because so many crucial moments do NOT have any kind of reliable evidence to counter Zimmerman’s account (what happened between the end of the phone call with Jeantel and the first witness to see them/ what happened during actual seconds prior to and immediately after the shot) almost all of the corroborating evidence is evidence which is either too open to interpretation altogether or supports Zimmerman’s account.

    Given this, I’m really kind of confused about how Mr. Leatherman can have such complete certainty, and with all due respect it seems that his (your) perception of what’s happening and how OTHER people (especially the jury) will perceive it is clouded by your bias (A bias I share, remember – I actually predicted a second degree murder charge before it was filed, when everyone else was saying manslaughter.)

    At this point, given the Floridian mindset that cherishes self-defense (presumably, since they elect people who write those crazy laws) I think he’s going to be acquitted. And I’m not happy about it, but it does seem clear to me that the details and nuances that make it clear to US that Zimmerman committed murder, along with the lack of solid evidence to really support that cleanly, the many witness for the prosecution who said things helpful to the defense, and I can’t see any reason in the world why GZ would testify. His story is out there, there’s nothing to gain.

    • masonblue says:

      My answer to the absence of witnesses in the gaps, so to speak, to contradict the defendant’s claims regarding what’s happening in those gaps is a simple question.

      Why is the defendant lying?

      • Leslie says:

        I apologize for being stupid, but I don’t follow your point here?

        • newmediacounsel says:

          I’m not the professor, but I always start with a simple question: Can you believe the defendant because his defense depends on believing him.

          If the defendant is lying about the parts that we can figure out (through witnesses and physical evidence), why should we logically infer he’s not lying bout the parts we cannot?

          For the most part, no one and no video directly witnessed what happened that night. What we are left with is some direct evidence, but mostly circumstantial evidence. What’s kiling the self defense claims are the physical evidence. Denial of the eivdence at this point is not enough to be reasonable. I mentin that because I see that a lot with people. By denial I mean that they are saying to you “well I just don’t believe it.” The question is why? Can they explain it in a way that seems reasonable. Can the explain what evidence leads them to believe what they believe? How do they make ethat consistent with the other evidence- the DNA evidence, The injuries, the location of the body, the landscape, etc which all are very different from both the defendant’s claims and those now being made up for him (and yes there are people online now creating defenses for him).

          The core problem with the people who believe Zimmerman is that having determined he’s a pathological liar (e.g., his response about SYG was a clear lie he told on tv), why do they then believe him about the rest of his story?

          The defendant is entitled to reasonable doubt, but not any doubt that one can come up with. That means- if you are going to give him the benefit of the doubt about his statements, why would any reasonable person do that?

    • Xena says:


      ….has received 12,000+ posts, but they have all been from a relatively small group of people dissecting it down to the atom. …But that’s in contrast to what I see as a huge number of people who see it precisely the opposite.

      Let me make sure I understand. Since the beginning of this case, you’ve been participating in a forum with over 12,000 posts but by a small group, who you then posture as being a “huge number of people” who believe GZ is innocent??

      Then, in your opinion, you say

      AND because so many crucial moments do NOT have any kind of reliable evidence to counter Zimmerman’s account …

      Evidently, you did not listen to ASA Mantei’s argument on Friday that Judge Nelson heard, resulting in the court denying GZ judgment of acquittal.

      • Tzar says:

        Xena says:
        July 7, 2013 at 4:12 am
        Evidently, you did not listen to ASA Mantei’s argument on Friday that Judge Nelson heard, resulting in the court denying GZ judgment of acquittal.

        Well We know one lawyer who thinks there is reliable evidence to refute Zimmerman’s account

      • Leslie says:

        Forgive me for being unclear: the huge number of people who believe he’s innocent extends beyond the forum discussion I’ve been participating in. I brought that up specifically to speak of how I’ve come to understand the thought processes of those Who believe Zimmerman should be acquitted.

        And I did listen to the argument, I was pleased that the state seems to have made the same connections that I have made, but that still does not give us solid evidence and witnesses to fill in the blanks. And while his arguments were perfectly adequate for the judge to deny the motion for acquittal, the standards for conviction are much more stringent.

        • KA says:

          Leslie, I think I know what you are saying?

          Why are so many “legal experts”, attorneys in other forums, and people who should be objective think GZ will walk? The arguments presented here are very simple and explainable and it is quite obvious that there are a lot of lies in GZ’s story. I think you are saying, why does not any other “rational” person see it who have seen the same evidence we have?

          I had the same concerns, but I have been able to reconcile it recently. I am a huge supporter of the Martin family and despise the lies GZ has told to “get away” with killing a child (in fact, I would say executing..) and I was still worried. but…

          Searching Minds posted a case that ASA Mantei had used in his response to the acquittal request. It showed that in this FL decision all that is needed to prove “depraved mind” in this law was the pointing of a firearm with the intention to shoot.

          The article I read today from ABC, NPR, and MSNBC all said that the state did not prove the “high threshold” of a “depraved” mind. According to that case law, clearly they have. I suspect none of those analysts have read that case when it was stated in court by Mantei. It is very, very relevant. Judge Nelson knew that case law obviously and never wavered from M2 when she could have. That minimum threshold has been met already and there are piles of other corroborating evidence to add to it. Her decision to continue with M2 was not insignificant. She well knew the applicability of that case law and knows this is a M2 trial.

          I understand what you are saying, but I think we are looking at people who do not know the evidence well, have not done their “homework”, and have not read half of the evidence that will be made available to the jury when they deliberate.

          Additionally, they seem to be judging both sides case right now with only the bulk of the State’s presented. Both sides got cheers and lumps in that one side. The same will happen in the defense case. We are only half way there.

          Also, closing arguments and rebuttal for the State can win or lose something. They have entered a ton of evidence, they just have yet to fully utilize it, but I believe they will.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      If Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in self defense, why did he feel the need to INVENT so many conflicting stories of HOW IT PHYSICALLY HAPPENED, describing actions that are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE?

      And why was a 207 lb.Mixed Martial Arts fighter who trained 9 hours a week in a gym for six months UNABLE to physically control a 158 lb. youth? For, say a maximum of five minutes until the police arrived (as it turned out, it was less than three minutes) — police that Zimmerman himself had called?

      What was the rush to shoot this kid?

      Couldn’t be Zimmerman’s superficial “injuries,” could it? — the kind of scrapes you’d get in any backyard wrestling match, two nicks to the back of the head that needed no sutures, no bandages, but if you really wanted to flaunt it, two kid-size “Hello Kitty” bandages would cover them both.

      Why lie about the head bashing when it did not happen and no blood could be found on the concrete? Or on Trayvon Martin?

      Why would Zimmerman claim he was so badly beaten about the face that his eyes were filled by his own blood – when photographic evidence shows it did not happen?

      Why lie about Trayvon supposedly covering his nose and mouth and preventing Zimmerman from breathing – and THEN CLAIM. as Zimmerman did, that he was screaming all the while his nose and mouth were covered? How did he scream that long, drawn-out desperate wail if his mouth was clamped shut by Trayvon?

      Why lie about these injuries that Zimmerman claims he got from Trayvon that made him fear for his life when every one of those injuries would cover Trayvon with Zimmerman’s blood – and it DIDN’T?

      If the truth would exonerate Zimmerman, why didn’t Zimmerman TELL THE TRUTH?

      So … wouldn’t Zimmerman want to explain what REALLY happened?

      I get greater wounds pruning my rose bushes, Lynn. That’s life on the wild side. But I don’t go out with an AK-47 and shoot those suckers to smithereens.

      George Zimmerman packed a semi-automatic pistol with nine hollow-point bullets. Forensic evidence proves Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon Martin by the shirts, carefully placed the muzzle up to Trayvon’s heart, made certain his grabbing hand was out of the line of fire, pulled the trigger for one single shot as police were within siren distance, and turned Trayvon Martin’s heart into dog meat.

      Because “those assholes, they always get away,” and this time, Zimmerman made certain it would not happen. Finally, he could prove he had caught a “suspect” and get the admiration he craved.

      The fact that a young life was obliterated meant nothing to Zimmerman.

      That’s what makes it Murder 2.

      If not, he should tell the jury.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        I remember back when I was a teen we lived on a ranch. I got bucked off my horse several time. One time me horse bucked me off into a bobbed wire fence and I ended up at ER, getting ten stitches above my knee. Did I go get a gun and shoot my horse. No, I got on the bus, went to my school to tryout for a cheerleader. Well, I didn’t make the team, on the bus going home, I cried alittle because I didn’t make the team, not because I had to go back to the ER because I had ripped open all the stiches, and get new ones. So Boo Hoo Foggen over your little nothings that needed no stiches and not even a band-aIde, thinking you going to die, and JR will have to spoon feed your big wimpy ass. I guess you never fell off your bike or skates.

        • Malisha says:

          Bravo Bravo. No you don’t have a right to shoot someone because they punched you in the nose. ESPECIALLY if you scared them and they ran and then when you met up (either because they said “what’s your problem homie?” or because they said, “Why are you following me for?” you did not say, “Hey man, I mean you no harm, I’m not gonna hurt you, I’m just with the neighborhood watch and I wondered if you lived near here.” If you did not say that, seeing that they either thought you were following them OR thought you had a “problem” with them, you KNOW they’re scared and you KNOW they will try to escape you and if you get a punch in the nose, you deserved it for not immediately telling them you were not a danger.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Exactly. Trained in all that criminal justice but as Serino told him, we develop relationships with the community. Something a sociopath isn’t good at.

      • Rachael says:

        This is a very good post.

        • Malisha says:

          Rachel’s comment was to Soulcatcher.

          • Rachael says:

            Actually it was to PiranhaMom but not because there was anything wrong with Soulcatcher’s post, just that he/she (Soulcatcher) got there first, but my comment was to PiranhaMam – but it can be for Soulcatcher as well. LOL

      • Leslie says:

        First of all, please remember that I know that Zimmerman’s lying, and I see these things pretty much the same way that you do. The problem is that so many other people do not, because they do not think in ways that are nuanced.

        Secondly, as much as you and I can look at those injuries and roll our eyes, the legal fact is that the injuries do not need to be severe to support Zimmerman defending himself. So dwelling on the minor nature of his injuries is pointless. That he has any injuries at all, is more than adequate to support his contention that he was being hurt by Martin. There are other, more fruitful ways to attack his claim of self-defense then to dwell on the minor nature of his injuries.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Leslie — Am not sure what you mean by “Floridian mindset.” It’s a big, long state that, politically, could divide into two or three. The Florida lawmaker who drafted SYG has published an editorial stating it doesn’t apply to Fogen.

      In public places. case talk has escalated since the trial began, and I’ve rarely overheard anyone offering support to Zimmerman. Even racists know which way the wind is blowing.

      My Hispanic tow truck driver the week before last was irritated that the charge wasn’t M1, and the black/white/Hispanic-filled waiting room at my auto dealership (where I’ll be towed in again tomorrow, given that the electronics problem persists) did not register anything but disgust for Zimmerman. You must be hanging out with a strange crowd.

    • Tzar says:

      Leslie says:
      July 7, 2013 at 1:45 am

      AND because so many crucial moments do NOT have any kind of reliable evidence to counter Zimmerman’s account

      uhm…what is it like in your universe?
      because in mine the time line directly and reliable counters and conflicts Zimmerman’s account around the most crucial moment of all and around many other crucial moments.

      • Leslie says:

        What actual evidence do we have of what actually took place from the time Zimmerman got off the phone? What actual evidence do we have of what actually took place after the call with Jeantel ended? What actual evidence do we have of what happened In the seconds directly preceding the gunshot, and what evidence do we have of what happened in the seconds directly following the gunshot? No one living saw Zimmerman pull out his gun. He claims it was seconds before he shot… But it could easily have been minutes before. He could’ve been holding in his hand the whole time, he could’ve pulled it out in the middle of the fight. Absolutely no living person aside from Zimmerman himself, knows the truth about when the gun came out, And that is something which I would love to have evidence for, since I think he pulled it out long before that final moment. I think the sight of that gun is what made Martin screen. But we have no evidence.

        We also do not have reliable complete evidence for what happened immediately following the shot. We only have Zimmerman story. When I have argued to others Zimmerman’s story about spreading Martin’s arms apart proves he is lying about something to hide something he did that was not kosher, because Martin was found with his arms underneath him, I have been told That Martin did not die instantly, and he could easily have pulled his arms back under himself. I think that is ludicrous, but it is certainly not impossible. The unfortunate truth is that we do not have any reliable evidence for those seconds and minutes directly following the shot… We do not didn’t know the moment that Martin lost consciousness or the moment that his heart stopped beating. We do not have any eyewitnesses can tell us exactly what George Zimmerman did in the split seconds following the shop. Or what Martin did, if anything. That is bad for the prosecution.

        • Leslie says:

          I am using iPad dictation, I apologize for the really strange typos.

        • Tzar says:

          What actual evidence do we have of what actually took place from the time Zimmerman got off the phone?

          Plenty, all the discovery files are available for your review
          . Actually just read this blog (link below) for the last 12-16 months or so. Good luck.

          • Leslie says:

            Ther is no evidence for the crucial time periods that I specified, nor is there any evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claim about when he pulled the gun. Nor is there non-Zimmerman evidence about the shooting itself… Theres a lot of evidence-less gaps, unfortunately, and for some of the most critical parts of the incident. Making it much easier to raise reasonable doubt. All versions of what did or could have happened contain some implausible aspect.

            For instance: I was just introduced to some new information and ideas in the last couple of days… Tracy Martin’s girlfriend and Tracy Martin himself both said on video things which lead one to believe that Trayvon Did actually make it back to his fathers house. They both said he was sitting on the porch outside. Well Zimmerman supporters love this because it supports their notion that Martin made a decision to go after Zimmerman when he didn’t have to.

            So there are two scenarios: among those who believe Zimmerman we are supposed to believe that Zimmerman waited around at the T for no good reason for almost 2 minutes. He just stood there. Okay, why? And that while he was standing there Martin came after him. Martin asked him a question, he replied, and Martin punched in the nose. There’s a lot of implausibility there.

            Or try this instead: Martin makes it all the way home, is on his father’s porch when he sees Zimmerman, who spent the two minutes continuing to look for Martin, approach his father’s house. He steps off the porch goes up to Zimmerman and asks why he’s following him. Zimmerman responds “what are you doing here”, Martin perhaps turns away in a “forget you” kind of a gesture Zimmerman reaches out maybe to touch him to stop him, and Martin whom we know is scared, reacts badly. The struggle/fight/pursuit proceeds south to north, which I understand was the testimony of one or two witnesses. They end up where we know they ended up.

            So far, so good. But then someone pointed out to me: Zimmermans keys/flashlight were found at the T itself… So in order for my scenario to work, the pursuit/fight/struggle would had to have gone all the way up to the T and then back again. THAT seems implausible as well, Particularly given the very small timeframe we’re talking about.

            So what is the answer? What plausibly explains all of that? The location of the evidence, the comments by Martin’s father and girlfriend, The time gap, etc. There are aspects of either story which make more sense but together they can’t both be true. If anyone has a good answer for the keys being at the T that matches the rest of the story please tell me. Other than to say the fight went both all the way north and then back again, because that just doesn’t seem very likely.

            Again, I am absolutely certain that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin as murder is defined in Florida law. But I would be more comfortable if I could explain some of these implausible bits and pieces.

          • cielo62 says:

            Leslie- for one thing, quit reading at the conservative treehouse. The only thing rhy get right is the date on their from page. Neither Tracy nor Brandi were there that might!! What stupid person could think they said he was on the porch? Plus, and I’m sure you couldn’t possibly be dense enough to miss the 5+ hours torture that West did in Dee Dee! Oh wow! A young man spent all his extra free time talking in the phone! Dang girl, you just sound ignorant of this case! Read and then ask intelligent questions! The prosecution does NOT have to present a story; they have to show that GZ is lying. HE needs to present a plausible story, which he can’t.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Tzar says:

            Ther is no evidence for the crucial time periods that I specified,

            Turns out just saying so or typing it on an internet blog does not make it so
            weird how that works 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Tzar~ Yes, weird how one has to actually READ and THINK in order to see what happened!


          • cielo62 says:

            Tzar- LOL! Just the blog link! Delicious!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • cielo62 says:

          Leslie- we don’t NEED to know WHEN GZ pulled his gun, just the fact that he did do to kill Trayvon is all that matters! And numerous eye witnesses and forensic evidence points to GZs actions after the shot. And there are numerous evidence dumps and dozens of threads already posted about what the available evidence indicates. Best source would be LLLMPapas videos on YouTube for w quick rundown. Otherwise what you ask just shows laziness in getting the answers you want on what has been discussed for over a year.


          • Leslie says:

            I’m not reading conservative pages, and I have been examining evidence for a long time. Instead of becoming abusive towards me, could You simply be more specific about what it is you believe has been adequately proved? Because the fact that Zimmerman killed Martin is not enough to convict him of murder. It must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did so, which means eliminating the reasonable possibility of self-defense. If you know of evidence which does that, I am very interested in seeing it, since I have not as yet. The problem is that almost everything that people like you and I view as damning to Zimmermans case can also be seen as supporting Zimmerman’s case. Very little evidence has only one possible interpretation. A case in point is the screams: I believe with all my heart that it is Trayvon Martin screaming. There is no scenario in which it makes sense to me that that would be Zimmerman. But as we know, there is no clear cut answer about that: both mothers claimed it is their son. The experts won’t say either way. Nobody saw the mouth of the person screaming. Therefore, while it seems crystal-clear to you and to me, it is not. Other people, many other people, find it fantastical to believe that somebody who was observed on top of Zimmerman would simultaneously be screaming for his life. He appeared to have the advantage. Why would someone who has the advantage be screaming? This is a particularly important question in terms of the gun: if we knew when the gun was pulled out, and we knew that it was out long before Zimmerman said, it would be easier to say that the screams were coming from Martin, who was trying to stop Zimmerman from shooting him.

            Which is my point entire: I have no question about Zimmermans guilt. But what I find disturbing and depressing is the fact that it appears just as easy, if not easier, to believe in his innocence, particularly for people who love guns, operate from fear, and don’t like to think too hard about details. Unfortunately that desribes a lot of people in this country and could easily describe the jury.

            Nothing in this case is cut and dried. Nothing.

            With all due respect, it is important to be able to see through the eyes of others, whether you agree with them or not. Dismissing anyone who views things differently than you do as an idiot who just doesn’t understand maybe personally satisfying but it doesn’t address the reality: an enormous number of people DO see things VERY differently, so the only real,hope we have of reaching them is to first understand how that can be. If we dig into the thought process, perhaps we can find an opening to introduce new thinking.

            Which is why I normally spends time on a forum that has the entire spectrum of thought represented. Listening to an echo chamber isn’t really helpful, not least because it can distort your perception of the larger reality.

            In this case, i was very happy to find Mr. leatherman’s blog because he was one of very view authoritative voices who seemed to feel that things were going well for the prosecution. Since at this point, that appears to be a minority view among legal authorities, I wanted to better understand the reasons he felt that way, in hopes of having some ammunition, if you will, to go back to those people I’ve been debating.

          • cielo62 says:

            Leslie- IANAL. You seem to be asking for cliff notes of a debate that has been evolving for over a year. In the case if people who operate from love of guns and fear, there is NOTHING you can to say to them to change that. That is why voir dire is so crucial to ferret out the people incapable of actually listening to the evidence. To me, the scream is heartbreaking but it doesn’t make or break this case. The forensics of zero DNA on Trayvon’s hands in crucial. No possible way to deliver a life threatening beating without grasping some part of that melon head and digging in. The angle if the bullet entry is also crucial. It cannot be done while on one’s back. Sure one manage a shot from that position but NOT that angle. Those two pieces plus Dee Dees account plus even GZs account of Trayvon RUNNING AWAY point to GZ being the aggressor, stalking, following and lying to make up for killing an unarmed teen. The forensics which do not depend on eye witness testimony are the most damning pieces of guilt. It you argue from that, none of that other baloney matters. To continue to support GZ after that is pure unmovable racism.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • KA says:

            So if Trayvon did move and pull his hands under his chest…it would really show a depraved person who sat on his back pushing blood and air out while Trayvon gurgled and yelped in pain and then realized he was incapacitated and “let go” when Trayvon with all his strength pulled his arms in….

            Meanwhile, GZ called his buddy, talked about the gun and bullets he used and had people take pictures of his head while a dead boy gurgled his last…

            Being alive longer, does not help GZ.

            Let’s talk about screams….

            1) they punctuate at the shot exactly (anyone hearing that in their neighborhood would assume the one shot was the one screaming…think if you heard that from your next door neighbor). Additionally, If GZ did not know he “hit” him, and Trayvon sat up and said thug words, GZ would not have stopped screaming. GZ’s own testimony eliminates this scenario.
            2) The screams on the call only get louder and more desperate. GZ claims he was smothered by mouth and nose pinched. He also claims that his bloody nose was going down his throat (which would initiate an involuntary cough and hacking), and really, try maintaining a constant tone at the same volume by putting your hand over your mouth and pinching your nose…really try it…it doesn’t work…
            3) The neighbors heard running around, chasing, an argument, and scuffling before calling 911. The “he hit me and I fell down and the rest is history” does not jive with that story.

            I suspect, the State will be able to bring together multiple points to show that GZ is excluded from the scream logically or show he is lying about every single other thing he told the police.

            Does he want to choose which scenario is correct for the jury?

          • Leslie says:

            “The forensics of zero DNA on Trayvon’s hands in crucial. No possible way to deliver a life threatening beating without grasping some part of that melon head and digging in.”

            I wish this were true. But unfortunately it doesn’t matter. Under the law what matters is whether the jury believes that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of serious injury or death, and that does not require that he have any existing injuries at all. So disproving the severity of Zimmerman’s injuries is somewhat helpful to convincing the jury he’s a big liar, but it doesn’t make any kind of meaningful difference to Zimmerman’s self-defense claim.

            As for the angle, my understanding, which is very flawed because I’m not glued to the trial, is that there has already been testimony stating that the wound is entirely consistent with Zimmerman’s claim of the two mens’ positions. Again, I think we are back to “two possible interpretations” of all or most of the evidence.

            I would really love it if there was something irrefutable in the evidence that makes it impossible for Zimmerman to have acted in self-defense. But so far I haven’t seen it.

            I can only hope the jury is made up of people like me, who really do not have any kind of reasonable or indeed, any doubt AT ALL about whether Zimmerman is guilty. But I’m not holding my breath. I am just crossing my fingers that the defense fumbles it and the prosecution does a flawless close.

          • Xena says:


            Under the law what matters is whether the jury believes that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of serious injury or death, and that does not require that he have any existing injuries at all.

            According to GZ, he was no longer in any fear of serious injury nor death when he killed Trayvon. That in fact, GZ had removed all threats of injury and death. Based on his story, he had removed his head off the sidewalk thereby preventing further injury to his head.

            Also based on his story, he removed Trayvon’s hand off his nose by using a wrist lock. Also based on his story, when he unholstered his gun to shoot Trayvon, he had Trayvon’s arm pinned.

        • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

          ME said that Trayvon wouldn’t be able to talk or move after the bullet went through his heart and fragments tore into his lung. And don’t forget that his lungs collapsed. There is your proof that Trayvon did not move once hitting the ground.

          • KA says:

            SO here is a scenario in real life…

            Your kid goes to school, he has been complaining to you about a bully that is threatening to punch him and take his new iPOD. Your son knows the name, the class he has with him, where he sits. The next day your son comes home with a busted lip, no iPOD, and a note that it happened immediately before the exact same period that they are in class together.

            Later, they find this “bully” with an iPOD the same color as your sons, but he denies everything and says his mom bought it. His mom says she didn’t and doesn’t know where he got it. What is your logical conclusion?

            Would you believe the “bully” kid that some else the kid doesn’t know did it? Do you believe that your kid faked his injuries and flushed the iPOD? Do you believe that the threats made previously came true?

            If you had to give that case to a group of moms with sons, what would they believe? The outrageous and improbable or the logical explanation?

            SO goes a jury and court….and they have DNA….

        • diary73 says:

          Leslie says:
          July 7, 2013 at 1:53 pm
          “What actual evidence do we have of what actually took place from the time Zimmerman got off the phone? What actual evidence do we have of what actually took place after the call with Jeantel ended? What actual evidence do we have of what happened In the seconds directly preceding the gunshot, and what evidence do we have of what happened in the seconds directly following the gunshot? No one living saw Zimmerman pull out his gun. He claims it was seconds before he shot… But it could easily have been minutes before. He could’ve been holding in his hand the whole time, he could’ve pulled it out in the middle of the fight. Absolutely no living person aside from Zimmerman himself, knows the truth about when the gun came out, And that is something which I would love to have evidence for, since I think he pulled it out long before that final moment. I think the sight of that gun is what made Martin screen. But we have no evidence.”


          I am not sure what evidence we have that “proves” what happened in those crucial minutes, but there is plenty of evidence that proves what DID NOT happen, all of which counters GZ’s account.

          1. He did not get punched at the tee and decked with a single blow because Trayvon’s body is not at the tee.

          2. GZ did not shoot right after he shimmied his head off the concrete because Trayvon was killed well into the grass not even clost to concrete.

          3. He did not tell Jonathan to help him restrain “this guy” and not call 911 because he had already called the police. He did not encounter Jonathan until he was walking around the tee after he got off his victim.

          4. Trayvon did not bash his head multiple times into the sidewalk.

          5. Trayvon did not punch him in the face multiple times.

          6. GZ amended his story about getting decked at the tee, adding that he tried to get away. If this is the case, his nose should have begun bleeding externally; however, GZ’s blood was not under Trayvon’s fingernails, nor was his facial blood smudged all over his face. The Photoshopped picture showed fresh glistening blood on his lip appearing to have originated from scrapes to his nose, not the inside of his nostrils.

          7. Rachel Jeantel’s account differs from GZ’s account, which contradicts how GZ says the encounter began.

          8. Although I have no proof of this, I am willing to stake a great deal on the fact that Trayvon never referred to GZ as “Homie.”

          9. The way GZ claims that Trayvon straddled him in an MMA mounting position is impossible: neither could Trayvon see GZ’s gun while in that position, nor could GZ retrieve his gun with Trayvon mounted atop him like that.

          I am sure there is more evidence to counter GZ’s story, but this is all I can think of right now.

          • Leslie says:

            Please keep in mind that I am playing devil’s advocate. I am just showing you how easily others view it, and those others could include the jury:

            diary73 says:

            1. He did not get punched at the tee and decked with a single blow because Trayvon’s body is not at the tee.

            A ) The fact that Trayvon’s body is not there does not disprove his claim of the blow. He could have been knocked down there, the struggle/fight continued for a bit, moving south. The fact that his keys and flashlight were there, and the debris field continues down to Martin’s body suggests that is exactly what happened.

            2. GZ did not shoot right after he shimmied his head off the concrete because Trayvon was killed well into the grass not even clost to concrete.

            I agree, but others shrug this off as a minor obsessive detail that doesn’t really change the substance of Zimmerman’s claim.

            3. He did not tell Jonathan to help him restrain “this guy” and not call 911 because he had already called the police. He did not encounter Jonathan until he was walking around the tee after he got off his victim.

            I am a little unclear, are you simply pointing out an inconsistency? (There are so many inconsistencies that could take a lot of space!) Or was there testimony refuting a claim in evidence by Zimmerman?

            4. Trayvon did not bash his head multiple times into the sidewalk.

            I agree, but what is the EVIDENCE that he did not? (By the way, as I said before, even if there is evidence that this didn’t happen, it doesn’t take self-defense away from Zimmerman)

            5. Trayvon did not punch him in the face multiple times.

            Again, what is the EVIDENCE that he did not punch him? We heard testimony from someone (most of this I’m hearing second hand. so I apologize for errors) that he punched him somewhere between one and 12 times, no way to tell. ANd by someone I mean a medical professional. So the evidence would seem to be that he DID punch Zimmerman, it’s only a question of how many times. Again, doesn’t rob Zimmerman of his self-defense claim.

            6. GZ amended his story about getting decked at the tee, adding that he tried to get away. If this is the case, his nose should have begun bleeding externally; however, GZ’s blood was not under Trayvon’s fingernails, nor was his facial blood smudged all over his face. The Photoshopped picture showed fresh glistening blood on his lip appearing to have originated from scrapes to his nose, not the inside of his nostrils.

            This isn’t evidence of anything positively, it’s evidence which undermines Zimmerman’s claim, but doesn’t take away self-defense.

            7. Rachel Jeantel’s account differs from GZ’s account, which contradicts how GZ says the encounter began.

            Doesn’t’ matter. Jeantel does say that Trayvon initiated the encounter. Many people feel that was Trayvon’s error and it points to Trayvon “attacking” GZ. I don’t agree, but I do understand how others can see it like that, it’s not irrational.

            9. The way GZ claims that Trayvon straddled him in an MMA mounting position is impossible: neither could Trayvon see GZ’s gun while in that position, nor could GZ retrieve his gun with Trayvon mounted atop him like that.

            Again, this isn’t evidence of anything. Zimmerman’s recollection of exact body positions isn’t make-or-break for a self-defense claim. It’s just another big “Huh?”

            “I am sure there is more evidence to counter GZ’s story, but this is all I can think of right now.”

            And nothing that you have offered really counts as evidence of something specific that directly refutes important aspects of Zimmerman’s story which makes his claim of self-defense untenable. It’s all mostly pointing out how the evidence doesn’t really line up with Zimmerman’s account, showing that Zimmerman is, at best, really hazy on the details.At worst, a liar coming up with things to make his story sound good. But if that’s the case, what else do we have besides his story? What evidence exists to replace his story with a different story.

            The jury is entitled to make reasonable inferences from the evidence, but they absolutely need evidence of something, they can’t just decide that he’s a liar so they convict. It doesn’t work like that. If they do that, he’ll win on appeal for sure.

          • cielo62 says:

            Leslie- you are not playing devils advocate, but are playing stupid. Points 4 and 5 were disproved by the lack of DNA found on Trayvon’s hands, shirts and hoodie. How would any beat down occur without any touching? The injuries GZ received were very insignificant , as per both the ME and the PA. The positions of the body was based purely on GZs testimony and it makes ALOT of difference. If someone is straddling you with his knees in your armpits, then the other person effectively prevents you for getting your gun, and also prevents the straddler from even seeing that gun. You are engaging in willfully ignoring both evidence presented and the professionals who presented them. That us not devils advocate. That’s being a troll and a pain in the butt.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            " He could have been knocked down there, the struggle/fight continued for a bit, moving south. The fact that his keys and flashlight were there, and the debris field continues down to Martin’s body suggests that is exactly what happened."

            This is not two pieces of evidence, it is one item, a key with a flashlight attached. It is not evidence of an attack at the Tee because after gz killed Trayvon, he walked to the tee and had every opportunity to plant it there then.

            Just about everything you posted is not true or is something that contradicts the best evidence.

            These are things we pondered a very long time ago and dropped when we figured out the answers, from the evidence and testimony in the evidence dumps and tapes.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I fear Fogen might walk at times for all the reasons you state, but even in Florida there are plenty of people who kill and claim self-defense who end up in prison. After all, despite rabid 2nd Amendment support and rallying around SYG and self-defense, the state really can’t tolerate people playing judge, jury, and executioner, particularly of unarmed minors.

      I’m not a Christian, nor do I believe in God, but I have faith most of the time in the God’s Plan (karma) that Fogen invoked on national / international airwaves. He said it, let it be done.

      • disappointed says:

        I said Friday and I will say it again. My 3rd son broke my nose, I had no idea that I could shoot him dead and be justified. Yep it stills sounds stupid today. :/

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I’ve been beaten and raped (two different incidents) and once manhandled by cops and it never occurred to me that I should be able to kill anyone.

  67. Simon S says:

    Mr Leatherman,
    In your post you state that the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Zimmerman restrained Mr Martin. What evidence would you be referring to when you say this. I have heard the state suggest Mr Zimmerman followed and maybe even confronted Mr Martin, but don’t recall any testimony or commentary from the prosecution saying Mr Zimmerman ever attempted to restrain Mr Martin. So if the state hasn’t offered any evidence, testimony, or even suggested this happened in their remarks, I am wondering where you are getting this idea.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t mean to interrupt but GZ says it in his own words, he said for someone not to call the police but instead asked for help to restrain a dead child.

      I know that isn’t what you mean, but just taking that with the fact that GZ got out after him, what do you think was his intent? He had already called the police so he knew they were on their way, instead of asking the police to meet him, he said to call when they get there, does it not make sense to you that his idea was to confront and “restrain” Trayvon until the police got there? I personally do not believe (and this is my personal opinion) that GZ had intended to kill Trayvon. He ONLY intended to restrain him until police got there so he could get there but got a bit carried away with the “position of power” rush that went to his head in doing so.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes. It is Fogen’s own words that will ultimately convict him. I’ve said that all along.

      • Girlp says:

        Zimmerman also told Serino that he had Trayvon in a wrist lock since there was no ground pound or head banging that says to me he did restrain Trayvon; which was Zimmermans intention. “They always get away”, but not this time.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Rachel Jeantel’s testimony suggest that Fogen grabbed Trayvon because she heard Trayvon say “Get off, get off” after hearing Fogen say “What are you doing around here”.

      That coupled with the fact that Fogen did everything to make sure “this asshole didn’t get away” makes Rachel’s testimony very credible.

    • Jasmine says:

      Besides the fact that the bullet hole does not line up correctly…meaning that BOTH of the hoodies were pulled down and off to the side. Fogen was restraining Trayvon as he shot him.

  68. RastaGirl says:

    Maybe in another life, but I was really wishing that whoever did the autopsy on TM would be able to see something about his throat to confirm that he may have been yelling or screaming at the top of his lungs …. My fairy tale

  69. Trained Observer says:

    Can’t help but recall his bail hearing when Fogen unexpectedly got up on the stand and shocked even MOM — or so O’Mara later claimed — with the unanticipated smarmy address to Trayvon Martin’s parents, embroidered with yet another lie … that he thought Trayvon was much older.

    • Rachael says:

      We have all heard it on tape “late teens”

      • My Forehead Tho says:

        Yep and he also referred to Trayvon as “kid” in his NEN call saying, “I don’t want to give my address out because I don’t know where the kid is…”

  70. Trained Observer says:

    No defendant with an iota of sense in this situation would get on the stand to testify.

    But no one with an iota of sense spots, stalks and attacks an unarmed 17-year-old based on his color and then decides to put a hollow point through his heart … after carefully taking aim to avoid his own hand, of course.

    I think there’s a good chance Fogen will take the stand, overriding recommendations from MOM, West and anyone else in proximity from his twisted circle of liars, racists and morons.

    After all, he’s been worming his way out of trouble on lesser scrapes with the law for years. This would be his chance to shine, you see, because he’s so very much smarter than anyone else around.

    • MedicineBear says:

      The State should somehow get in that (in Oysterman’s words) any non-felon (over 18) can carry a concealed weapon with a hollow-point bullet in the chamber.

      If fogen is acquitted, this will be him. Coming to a neighborhood near you. “Taking care of” all those kids in your area.

  71. Tee says:

    I say there isnt a chance in hell that he’ll take the stand. If he does then he’ll have to explain how the nose injury is on right side of his nose. He’s got to explain the two missing minutes, the impossibility of him reaching his gun with trayvon on top of him, his 40 second screams for help with a hand covering his mouth, banging head with no DNA and he’s still alive, his straight front to back shot wit no elbow room, and lastly his perfect vitals after the shooting when he had been in such fear justs moments before.

    • Ty Flair says:

      I would love for him to explain how you was hit at the T and fell but one flashlight is at the T where you claim you was hit and the other flashlight is by Trayvon body.

      • My Forehead Tho says:


        And also how he was able to “shimmy” 30+ feet with a teenager with god like strength slamming and punching his head into the ground without getting a single grass or dirt stain on the back of his clothes.

  72. whonoze says:

    Mary opined above that MOM has figured out enough of what really happened on 2/26/12 to know that his client is in some real trouble.

    An argument he made toward the JOA motion may be revealing in that light…

    I have noted my theory of the crime here several times, and recently re-iterated it in a lengthy post on the whonoze blog. In short, I think it started as a wrestling match; GZ got TM’s arm into a hold that produced excruciating pain, leading to the screams; GZ expected TM to submit, but TM struggled on, enraging the CAC; in an attempt to get free, Trayvon somehow managed to land a fairly weak blow to GZ’s nose with his left hand; this stung enough that GZ released TM with his right hand, and TM started to pull away, though GZ still held him by the hoodie with his left hand; enraged to the point of blowing his top at having been hit by this fucking coon, AND fearing that now the asshole will get away, he pulls his Kel-Tec and shoots TM through the heart…

    Now set aside your differing theories for a minute, and consider this statement by MOM (paraphrased here only slightly, as I’m too lazy to wade through the YT vids for the exact wording):

    “I would argue that the punch to the nose alone warrants the response of deadly force.”

    My jaw dropped when he said that. Really? You get to kill someone just because they tag you on the schnoz? But perhaps this is MOM’s fall-back line of Defense. It doesn’t matter who started the wrestling match. It doesn’t matter who was screaming or why. It doesn’t matter why any punches may have been thrown. All that matters is the first blow.. That, in and of itself constitutes an escalation into the territory where the recipient may justifiably fear for his life. So there you have it: he hit me so it’s self defense no matter what else.

    Crazy? Yes. Do I think a jury would buy it? I doubt it. But crazier things have happened in Florida, and crazier crap has already been said during this trial.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I was wondering what he was doing to that kid to produce those blood curdling screams.
      Do you think that there is evidence that will show twisted muscles and tendons, bruises?

      • Puck says:

        Nothing like that appears in the autopsy report. I can’t see where else that information could come from.

      • aussie says:

        I’ll find it tomorrow, there are a few videos around showing what arm is being twisted sounds like. Or just go to Youtube and search for police brutality arm twist and you’ll find several.

        But no, autopsy didn’t look for bruised tendons. Anyway there’d not be any bruising, as that’s caused by blood loss into damaged tissue, and he didn’t have blood circulating. They would not and did not dissect muscles that looked undamaged externally and on xrays (which of course don’t show soft tissue damage).

      • Malisha says:

        Pointing a gun at him would produce blood curdling screams in any kid I KNOW.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t know about the jury but I do think that’s what some people already think now.

    • Ty Flair says:

      I do remeber when O’Mara said he had the right to self defense after his client was punch in the nose,I was thinking damn you can kill someone just because you was hit in the nose.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      West did it also in his hypothetical of imperfect self defense when he crossed Carter, Fogen’s teacher. He basically said even if Fogen touched Trayvon first it wouldn’t matter if the force that Trayvon countered with caused his client to fear for his life.

      It’s on 54:00 in this video

      • boar_d_laze says:

        “Imperfect self defense” can mean a couple of things or both of them in combination; that the defendant used an inappropriate amount of force or misunderstood the situation and believed he was justified in acting in self defense, but was not.

        “Imperfect self defense” isn’t an actual defense in the sense that it can result in acquittal. In essence, it’s an argument for reduced punishment. As far as I know (never practiced there) “imperfect self defense” is not formally available in Florida. However, if the jury decides that Zimmerman was the aggressor — and is therefor guilty of something — the jurors will likely discuss whether Zimmerman acted with intent or panic.

        In this case, a finding of Manslaughter (very possible) is consistent with the idea of “imperfect self defense.”

        The judge instructs the jury on self defense and all other related legal concepts relevant to their decision. Having a witness testify about law which may be important to the jury’s ultimate decision is very tricky. Usually it isn’t allowed.

        In this case, the Prosecution pursued a strategy of “getting ahead” of every issue. It apparently believed that this witness showed Mr. Zimmerman thought he knew enough to construct a story consistent with some form of self-defense; and the Defense was more than happy to discuss self-defense at any time.

        Since the Prosecution’s theory of the case was that Mr. Zimmerman attempted to construct a plausible story of self defense after murdering Mr. Martin, it was important for them to show that he knew how to do that; additionally, it contradicts other statements by Mr. Zimmerman — and Mr. Zimmerman’s credibility is his primary defense.

        In its summation the prosecution may tell the jury that this witness’s remarks are not the law, and that they will hear about that from Judge Nelson. If I were summing up, that’s what I’d do.

        Judge Nelson may tell the jury something along the same lines. In my opinion, she should.


      • YQ says:

        Self defense laws in FL suck. Redundant to determine fear based on what the beholder of that fear is stating. There is not much in the world that one can do to justify killing. Fogen was not a cop, was not in the army, he should be in prison already.

    • Jun says:

      Pretty much he is arguing that Trayvon had no right to defend himself against Fogen for anything Fogen does, although Trayvon does

    • MDH says:

      I tend to agree with your scenario. The wrestling-tugging match resulted in GZ pulling so hard that he fell back and the top of his head got scratched on the sidewalk. T was momentarily on top and made a weak strike with his non-dominant hand in an attempt to break free. The enraged GZ pulled his gun and shot T as the tug of war back to the point on the grass where T’s body was found.

      A reasonable society would conclude that in a fight wherein A is bigger, stronger and has a gun, that T has the right to use any force needed to try to escape harm. IOW, GZ should not get any right to self defense in that he was the aggressor. The punch, if there was one, was a defensive act.

      Be that as it may, the minor damage does not constitute an act that put GZ in a situation wherein his only recourse was to kill T.

      Even if it was, the fact that GZ states he was in such control of the situation that he could move his left hand out of the way to get a nice clean shot means that the danger had passed. This is another line of argument that is not talked about to much extent. Just because there was a perception of danger in the past does not warrant shooting at a future point in time.

      For example, if a guy comes at A with an axe and A reasonably pulls his gun, A does not get to shoot the guy if the guy drops his axe and backs away.

      What I am getting at is that there are many levels of argument to find GZ guilty.

      The defense farce of a punch in the nose warrants death is an appeal to what they hope are racists in the jury. It was not to long ago that a black male was expected to be deprived of their fourth amendment rights by any member of “white society” without question. Striking back meant being shot in that the black male needed to be put in his place.

      This last sad paragraph is really what the GZ supporters are all about.

      Seriously, I look at what GZ did from the point having white privilege. If that had been my boy, then, rest assured, most if not all of my white neighbors would have agreed that the creep did not have the right to confront my boy in the first place. In the trial, GZ would have been portrayed as a violent foreign thug wannabe.

      We do not live in an objective post racial society.

      For the record, although I am white, my wife is African. However, I grew up in Detroit in a largely black neighborhood. When I would visit the “all white” better suburbs, I would get an earful of how they think.

      IMO, Trayvon was one of those nice kids who used to come and talk with my father who lived in Detroit alone after my mom passed and I moved to DC.

      It is very sad that this trail makes a mockery out of the humanity of man.

      • fauxmccoy says:


        was just discussing this with my husband whose thoughts are quite similar to my own — we get to bottom line that IF trayvon did strike out with his non-dominant hand (which i think it would be silly for the state to argue against) ….. THEN what happened such that george’s face was that close to the trayvon’s fist??? by the looks and sounds of it, that is all on george as trayvon made every attempt to avoid confrontation according to the defendant’s original NEN call, ms. jeantel’s testimony etc., etc.

        • cielo62 says:

          faux mccoy~ I remember one eye witness saying she say windmill arm motions and then she illustrated. Those were NOT punches, but (forgive me) the way a girl might try to push someone away without hurting the other person. I could see Trayvon just trying to windmill his way OUT of gzs grasp to escape. An accidental bump to the nose might have occurred. Without any DNA present, it would have had to have been a glancing blow at best.


          • fauxmccoy says:


            that surely could be the case — as mantei says, one person is dead, the other is a liar. we will likely never know. i would hope that my own children would fight for their lives should it ever be necessary and pray to some unknown god that it is not.

            i was attempting to make 2 points
            1. that the defendant has some explaining to do as to how his fat head got so close to the victim
            2. it would be difficult for the state to argue that trayvon ‘never touched’ the defendant because of eye witnesses describing the struggle (as you did above) and that the defendant has obvious but insignificant injuries. we will never know how those injuries came to be, but making a blanket claim to the jury that it was *not* trayvon would open up too much room for ‘reasonable doubt’ to set in.

      • Johnnie says:

        “MDH,” love your post. You state, “Even if it was, the fact that GZ states he was in such control of the situation that he could move his left hand out of the way to get a nice clean shot means that the danger had passed. This is another line of argument that is not talked about to much extent. Just because there was a perception of danger in the past does not warrant shooting at a future point in time.”

        I am not sure why the State is not hammering this to point of ad nauseam just as O’Mara has been doing with that bull about Trayvon being responsible for his own death. I would be in jail today if I was Tracy because when during the hearing for dismissal when O’Mara said Trayvon had his chance to live, I would have jumped over that banister and kicked that MF’er’s ass. He and West are just as sick as their client.

        • MDH says:

          Only a true ass would say that Trayvon was responsible for his own death.

          There was not even probable cause for GZ to get out of his car in the first place.

          if this had not ended in a tragedy, GZ following and having the police investigate Trayvon would have been harassment and possibly a violation of Trayvon’s fourth amendment rights.

          That leads to another sorry ass commentary about post-racial USA.

          People of color’s fourth amendment rights are violated with impunity under the guise of the War on Drugs.

          IMO, GZ is a pathogen spawned by a sick system.

    • Malisha says:

      It’s the four-year-old’s “He Hit Me FIRST” defense.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Many of the Treepers sound exactly like four-year-olds. Well, maybe like three-year-olds!

  73. YQ says:

    I think that Fogen will testify bc the State has been dropping hard facts. GZ will develop a sick sense of pride and duty and try to clean up those “minor” inconsistencies that the State has exposed.

    I suspect that he will keep the story from the Hannity interview. He was going in the same direction. Trayvon came from the bushes as he was walking back and then stole on him. He won’t remember how the struggle moved but he’ll try to go further into detail about the head bashing. He will fall into some traps but more specifically when trying to explain how he got to the gun, and how the trajectory was through and through. The defense is blowing this case and the only reason why the media is covering it 50/50 is because they want to keep us on the tube until the very end. You have to remember that he said he would even profile white kids. He doesn’t discriminate in that aspect. The jurors are going to wonder if Trayvon could’ve been one of their kids. They are going to decide that ultimately he should be off the streets and the system will not be opposed to that. He already mocked the law the last time he got off. He’s got his own webpage, and he would definitely do it again. This Is why he wont be acquitted.

  74. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Will the jury take into consideration that Fogen opted out of a SYG immunity trial especially if Fogen decides not to testify in this trial? Hope jury members take into account Fogen’s reluctance to be cross-examined?
    The jury has witnessed some grueling cross-examination of by the defense during this trial. The jury may want to see Fogen be subjected to the same kind of grilling by the State to help them sort out remaining questions and inconsistencies. OTOH, Fogen would have been better off with SYG immunity trial versus testifying in this trial.

    • Malisha says:

      That doesn’t go before the jury, though. Fogen has the right to remain silent.

    • Malisha says:

      The judge will tell the jurors, in her instructions, that the defendant had the right to remain silent and that could NOT be held against him.

  75. colin black says:

    July 6, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    He will try and make that same move asking O’Mara to tell JN he will take the stand if only O’Mara ask the question and West do the cross,that’s the only way he will take the stand.

    An he will want one of them man in the box type afairs the bullet proof plexi glass shields.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Oh, gosh. I just had an image of George as Hannibal Lecter.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        deborah moore says

        Oh, gosh. I just had an image of George as Hannibal Lecter.

        what a coincidence! i often picture him being wheeled in on a handtruck and secured with a straight jacket 🙂

    • fauxmccoy says:

      colin says

      An he will want one of them man in the box type afairs the bullet proof plexi glass shields.

      you mean kinda like the ‘pope mobile’?? i can see him being that pompous and arrogant.

  76. YQ says:

    Could the jurors request the testimony of Fogen?

    • colin black says:

      sure not his testomany as ger in thebox an explain yourself.

      But the testomany he gave all of them to the police.

      The jourours can reqest to view any piece of evidence catalogued numbered into evidence

      That’s partly why its done to keep track.
      They can request to view an an all vt s of hannratty the walk through .

      Both his written an verbal staatements.

      Not only his But Rachels Serrinos Singletons
      Basicly the entire kit an caboodle any thing an every thing entered in to evidence by defence an or the prosecution can be viewed by them.

      Also any instructions given by the judge can be reasked an if clarification needed it will be given.

      • Lynn says:

        Oh, Colin. As I read your reply I just had this vision in my head of the jury requesting ALL of the videos (Hannity, walk-thru, etc) with a case of microwave popcorn just to make GZ squirm in wait since MOM and West made every day seem twice as long to them. LOL.

    • Malisha says:


  77. colin black says:

    Conventinal wisdom says that if the jurours are impartial fair an understsnd an correlate the facts with the events a conviction is a hundred percent certain..
    The only other optons are a biased raceist jurour hanging the trial.

    Or enough stealth s got in to influence an return an aquitall.

    I somehow doubt that but I do fear a hung jury.

    But I know an fair ury will convict for sure of second degree.

    He has shown no remorse or redeeming qualitys if he had then manslaughter may have been a possibility but his cavalier callous attitude will sink him.

  78. Ty Flair says:

    He will try and make that same move asking O’Mara to tell JN he will take the stand if only O’Mara ask the question and West do the cross,that’s the only way he will take the stand.

    • Romaine says:

      lol, remember that, who was the eff’n punk afraid to get in the box that day…George Michael Zimmerman. I just want to get away, because I am on drugs, up to no good, suspicious sitting in the rain in my truck, stalking a teenager as he walks home minding his own business. chatting on the phone with his BFF..telling the dispatcher he is coming towards me now because i parked my car in his path which leaves him with no other option but to pass my vehicle..oooh get someone here now he is staring at me; because my car is really in his path (on the curb, not fully in the parking space) requiring him to now walk around my truck..because I’m the head cac in charge…

      I live in the heart of the hood, I have always lived in the heart of the hood…I have always worked the grave yard shift. I am a single Black female with 1 son and 1 daughter..my son is the eldest. I have survived coming home alone without fear in Newark, NJ at all hours of the night…why is it that this child could not survive coming home from the 7/11 at 7pm in the evening in a gated community…why is it this child survived in his community unscathed; yet dies in a community his parents thought to be safe, privileged, and environment with a positive atmosphere

      • Deborah Moore says:

        You know what, Romaine? There was something evil waiting for Trayvon. That’s what’s different.
        Bless you and your children and everyone’s children.

        • Romaine says:

          ty and you are right, the evil was George Michael Zimmerman. the liar of all liars, his crime is worse than the kidnapper who participates in the search of a missing victim… knowing he is the killer…this is how I view the CAC

          • Deborah Moore says:

            I totally agree.
            Sitting there in his chair at the table with his attorneys and Knowing without a shadow of a doubt what he did to Trayvon, and would happily do again, it just makes me sick.
            He fits a picture of evil to me.

      • Malisha says:

        Romaine, Hell, I know Newark. I used to go home from work at 2:00 a.m. in Detroit in the summer after the “long hot summer.” I never met up with a creepy ass cracker like Fogen, though!

        • Romaine says:

          the fogen is one of a kind…I think his neighbors may have used him and he may now be taking the fall for them due to his connections…all I can say is if you are George Michael Zimmerman..tell each and every one of them to kiss your afp ass and maintain your freedom…if not, your punk ass needs to fess up and do your time you made a very tragic error when took the life of this child…

        • KA says:

          Honestly, I think the most dangerous place for this is predominantly white “safe” neighborhoods and suburbs. I live in one. I have 4 nonwhite children. Two are Asian, we moved in with them. Outside of stupid crass cultural jokes said to me personally, they do not suffer to much alternative effects. They were allowed to play at the neighbors and neighbors come to the door requesting to play with them….

          Then we adopted a Mexican American. He was like 9 when he came home. Holy cow! Suddenly he is “dangerous”, “scary” and NO ONE comes to the door to ask him to play. A neighborhood lady told him if he was “good”, he could clean her house…It is sad and pathetic.

          We are now in transition with a 11 yr old AA boy. I know the only other AA boy in the neighborhood (adopted from Liberia) is considered “angry”, “bad tempered”, and not everyone will allow their kids to play with him. He is 13 and a darling child. We would rather have him over than any other kid.

          Anyway, this is considered a “desirable” area with a good school district. I bought the house here 3 years ago because it was big and in foreclosure. I should have checked out the neighborhood first (which I did not at all) before the quick 3 weeks closing we had.

          I sent my AA son and Hispanic son to the park the other day. I have to say I thought about Trayvon and got anxious.

          It is probably time to see if my house value is up enough to move to a more diverse area…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Exactly. And RTL isn’t exactly some amazing gated community either. Like Fogen.

      • Half my childhood was spent in the city. Half in an inner ‘burn. I live in the ‘hood now by choice. In all honesty, there is no safe place for black boys but I was not going to subject my kid to the soul murder of white supremacy in the burbs!

    • Malisha says:

      HA HA HA HA HA and then when she denies, the Outhouse will demand that O’Mara recuse her ass! HA HA HA!! 😆

  79. fauxmccoy says:

    conventional wisdom dictates that a defendant on trial with an affirmative defense of self defense must testify, as you eloquently stated in your article, fred.

    this case has been anything but conventional, i would say it has been a circus. as much as i would love to see this defendant answer personally to the charge of murder 2 against him, i would hesitate to speculate on his course of action.

    mantei threw down the gauntlet in calling the defendant a liar. the defense would have to surmise that the state will do so again, at the end of their closing argument. as is usual, the defendant is between a rock and a hard place with nowhere to turn. i would love to see him on the stand and under cross examination for days. i suspect the defendant thinks he is smooth enough to handle it, although we know he is not. o’mara’s reluctance to let his client speak at all since the initial bond hearing is notable, however. o’mara knows he’s got a loser for a client.

    you make a powerful argument fred, but i still think it is anybody’s guess.

    • YQ says:

      No chance that BLDR breaks a confession from Fogen on the stand?

    • Deborah Moore says:

      He does think of himself as slick. Watching all his body language in court. The way he shakes hands with his attorneys, the way he addresses Her Honor, and that smile after viewing the Hannity interview in court.
      He hasn’t see Slick yet, I think. But, he will.

  80. colin black says:

    @MALISH o t

    You said on last thread you found it strange that mice an small malalls couls intimdate or take on dinasaurs ect.

    Not at all Forinstance Elephants are terrified of Elephants .
    A mouse is small nimble agile an fast compared to an Elephant it can move at light speed.

    A mouse or even a smallish rat could run right up an elephants trunk .

    An set up home a bit like a flea on a dog.

    Or as I said a small rat could gnaw an start eating on a sore or scab within the trunk.

    Similarly large dinasaurs could have been infested with small nibble mammals whom feasted of old or new healinf scar tissue m o o

  81. Newmediacounsel says:

    My gut instinct is that he will not testify.

    He’s a liar. A good one.

    He’s been able to survive on this skill for a long time. The lies he told are easy to see through, but people don’t. Why? Because they want to believe him.

    As you have said, most of the press believes him despite the obvious lies that they can’t possibly explain away. Its now a part of common wisdom that the trial is the defense’s to lose. I don’t agree. I think its 60/40 in favor of a conviction. The 40 percent?

    I believe that he and his defense team believe that these lies will produce reasonable doubt.

    The shortness of their case next week certainly adds to my believe.

    I hope that I am wrong. I think the case would be over if he testified.

    Look, it may be a crap shoot as far as him being found not guilty, but this is America, he killed a black boy, those odds are not always as remote as i would like them to be. Hence, the 40 percent if he doesn’t testify. If he does, I put the odds at certain conviction.

    What I have realized in reading some of the pro-Zimmerman lawyers online is that they demonstrate just how powerful racism is. How intractable it is. You have lawyers arguing that chasing behind someone isn’t evidence of an aggressor. Lawyers.

    So, no, I am not going to pretend racism doesn’t give him better odds than he deserves. I will hope, however, that I am wrong. I will also hope he does testify.

    • Dennis says:

      1. Provide evidence that he lied about his reason for leaving the car.
      2. Provide evidence that he tried to restrain the victim.
      3. Provide evidence that the victim did not beat him MMA style or smash his head repeatedly into concrete.

      I think the prosecution did a very good job on all 3 of those major points. Lying to the extent that he did proves his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

      The BellCom/NASA Insider’s quote from the Moon Rising documentary said it best. “We didn’t lie about certain things. We lied about everything.”

      • newmediacounsel says:

        I do not believe Americans are as rational as following the evidence. This case trespassed on a lot of hidden believes that they Whites hold about social spaces.

        • Romaine says:

          I agree, there is a lot of meat in your statement

          • concernedczen says:

            NewMediaCounsel, I agree with everything you said. If he testifies, his chances of being convicted increase exponentially.

            Though I hope and pray that he is foolish enough to testify, rationally I don’t think there’s any chance of that.

        • Puck says:

          I think that the RATL is a gated community contributes significantly to this. A gated community suggests safety, respite, relief from destabilized outside spaces, and neighbors existing as a social group (regardless of whether or not they know each other) by virtue of their shared insularity and ostensible security. It’s the “Retreat” at Twin Lakes — a retreat from those Others out there.

          One of the first things that drew me to this case was in the very early days of news media coverage. A predictably vile comment on a Yahoo! news article (I’ve never read those since) said, “Gated communities were meant to keep nhigers [sic] out.” Since I was still researching my huge Tea Party/Obama-era right wing paper, which dealt with race in sections, that comment caught my attention and I wanted to find out more. Make no mistake: this is about race.

          • aussie says:

            They are of course blatantly touted as secure, starting with the estate names…. and especially socially secure (which means only “your kind of person” there]. Being forced to allow renters at all, then to allow actual sales to blacks, must have hurt the RATL stalwarts, but the recession caught them between a rock and a hard place. Empty units = more HOA taxes for the remaining owners. Back when the units were around $250,000 any blacks who got in were good enough; but with prices down around the $85,000 mark??? well, downmarket prices are going to bring in downmarket people, right?

            It’s not entirely about race. Its about haves and have-nots, but to a large extent that is already (long ago) divided on racial lines because of the historical owner/property relationship. Race means all whites grew up with the idea they are superior. (Even the non-racist ones, only they’ve had added “but this is no longer true”).

            Hardest hit are those are the bottom of the white pile, being overtaken by the top of the black pile, whose “rightful place” is below ALL the whites. This involves real or perceived loss of job and, education opportunities etc for the lower percentile whites, increased costs (taxation) for the better off ones to support the “undeserving” blacks (and others). People’s pockets are hurting and they need someone to blame. Hard to kick banking executives, easy to kick dark-skinned teenagers. Plus you don’t kick someone you can (theoretically) aspire to becoming, eg an exec with $20 million annual bonuses.

            Fear of being overtaken, of being diddled out of “rightful” opportunities, drives a lot of anti-immigration feeling and prejudice, too, and not only against illegals. It’s a shock to discover you have to actually compete, on objective merit, against people you feel shouldn’t be in the race at all (because 60 or 100 years ago they would not have been).

            Dehumanising or demonising the “other” lets you continue to hold the moral high ground, to honestly believe “all men were created equal”…. simply by not counting these as “men”. Porch-monkeys. But the same dual standards are applied to “white trash” and other minorities; it’s not entirely about race. It’s jealousy, low self-esteem, often also unwarranted righteousness. Trying to be superior by force, to overcome being so objectively blatantly inferior.

            White people are honest — so if a white witness changes from “X was on top” to “Y was on top” he is just clarifying his statement.

            Animals (non-humans) are not honest – so a dark girl adding one extra “and” into her statement is proof of impeachment.

          • KA says:

            Aussie, we could right a doctrinal thesis on your post. You hit on some very deep and sobering points.

        • crazy1946 says:

          There seem to be some here that are exhibiting the same basic racism that they condemn when directed toward them. To openly accuse everyone of any particular racial heritage of racism based solely on the color of their skin is simply wrong and racist at its very core…. to make a statement that all white people are this or that is no different than what is said and done by “some but not all” white people. I might suggest if you want to end racism (as many of us do) you first pluck the racism from your own heart and mind…. Now if you wish to trash me for my word denouncing your words of racism then so be it, however don’t expect me to respond in kind because I refuse to sink to that level of hatred…..

          • Two sides to a story says:

            My Buddhist teacher, a Tibetan lama, always said that if you want to rid the world of hatred, then you must pluck hatred from your own heart first.

          • newmediacounsel says:

            You are arguing a straw man. I didn’t say all.

            I said 60/40 are the odds I am placing in favor of convictions. I said that a certain percentage of that 40 percent is related to what may be a racist contingent.

            Your argument is of the type that derails real conversations about race. I say that there’s a chance for this trial to go the wrong way due racism. You say “how dare you generalize” do you see a difference between what I wrote, and how you responded?

          • newmediacounsel says:

            Let me add that this, “Now if you wish to trash me for my word denouncing your words of racism” underscores as well why racism can’t be discussed. Tell me how anyone is supposed to have a conversation with you when you preemptively try to shut them down once you have made a straw man argument about what they said?

            Again, I said this

            “I do not believe Americans are as rational as following the evidence. This case trespassed on a lot of hidden believes that they Whites hold about social spaces.”

            In combination with this:

            ” I think its 60/40 in favor of a conviction. The 40 percent?

            I believe that he and his defense team believe that these lies will produce reasonable doubt.

            The shortness of their case next week certainly adds to my believe.

            I hope that I am wrong. I think the case would be over if he testified.

            Look, it may be a crap shoot as far as him being found not guilty, but this is America, he killed a black boy, those odds are not always as remote as i would like them to be. Hence, the 40 percent if he doesn’t testify.”

            I don’t see the point of distorting a conversation that says racism may be a factor into pretending I said all. If you don’t want to be “trashed” (which really means nothing here) you should try to seek to understand the arguments being made to you rather than react from what seems like defensiveness.

          • crazy1946 says:

            NMC, Go back and read the entire line of comments before you accuse me of a straw man argument.

            “I do not believe Americans are as rational as following the evidence. This case trespassed on a lot of hidden believes that they Whites hold about social spaces.”

            You wrote that, which however is simply an opinion that is not factual, if you had put the word “some” or even “many” it would not be seen as casting blame on an entire race would it? Like I suggested, look inward and examine your own heart and mind before you cast comments that can/could be perceived as racist by another. I was not raised to be a racist, I was raised to treat people as equal regardless of race, I have lived by that teaching for my whole life. I will simply put it like this if you wish to put me down because of the color of my skin, I will call you on it, much as I would wish you to do if I did the same. However if you wish to turn a blind eye toward your own acts that is your choice. Now, I simply will wish you a good afternoon, and cease posting..

          • Newmediacounsel says:

            I don’t need to look inward.

            I need to look at your inability to read comments in the context of the thread that they are written. The thread begins with my thesis. I included an additional comment within the context of that thesis.

            The core of it is taking a comment that was a part of a wider thesis that I had already made to then argue that the comment means something broader than what it means is dishonest..

            That line was written in the context of a longer thread that starts with me saying I believe there’s 60/40 chance for conviction, with there being percentage of 40 percent who may vote one way due to race. That was thesis i wrote in the context of the comment you responded to. I have now said this to you twice, and you still pretending that you don’t see the straw man of claiming I said “all”

            To argue that I said all when clearly the jury is White and Latino, and I said a percentage of 40 percent chance of “not guilty” may be race related is a straw man argument because by definition 40 percent and a percentage of 40 percent isn’t all. He numerically can’t be what you are saying. I didn’t say all. You are adding that. I am surprised I am even having to explain this but I sense that you now feel the need to dig in to claim you are right although there is a context to what I wrote that I have now explained twice.

            My advice to you- take a step back. Think about what I wrote, then comment rather than lecturing me about something that you feel I should be doing.

            I merely stated what is quite obvious to anyone who is honest (and is not a matter of opinion): Race may matter (we can’t know for sure) with the jury’s decision. To claim that this “may” equals “all” is a false statement on your part.

            Again, one of the reasons race cannot be dealt with in America is precisely your type of defensive posturing. Someone says “well race may be a factor” You respond with straw men, and will fight to the end claiming you aren’t engaged in one. You are. That’s not opinion either. My comments have a context and you aren’t factually allowed to change my comments meaning just to deflect from the fact that race may be a factor. you can have you own opinion, but you aren’t entitled to your own facts. I stand by what I wrote whether you agree with the reality that race may be a factor or not.

          • aussie says:

            Part of the problem is, the moment someone says the word “race” people start accusing each other of having accused each other of being racist.

            So it’s near impossible to have a sensible discussion. Everyone’s too busy with defending against (unsaid) accusations, to look at what it actually going on ..

            That is partly why I recast the problem in economic terms. Rich, poor, competition for limited economic goods. In these terms it can be examined in other countries as well, where there is no history of discrimination against blacks. (But plenty against some groups on other grounds, invariably involving ethnic origins).

            Even in countries with a homogeneous population,. some groups get singled out for discrimination. Many countries in Europe are now importing people for this purpose… ie bringing in workers from poor countries to do the work the locals don’t want to do,;at pay rates the locals won’t accept. This creates an underclass who can be looked down on and discriminated against for being an underclass.

            Even where the underclass is accepted as being human, they are considered “not quite as human” as “we” are, because they are foreigners – aliens. They are NOT ONE OF US. The fact that today’s AA people are descended from those who used to be “property” just further proves they’re not “us”.

            But generalising goes both ways. It is a mistake for AA people to assume anyone with a dark skin has had the same cultural experience as they had, or that they would side with AAs (in anything) because of their skin.

            The AA experience is NOT CAUSED BY BEING BLACK. Being dark skinned is just an easily recognisable sign of being a member of the ex-slave “others”. Some non-AA darker people might be lumped into the profiling because of this, but their perception of the discrimination they face is likely to be totally different.

    • KA says:

      I do not think he will either.

      However, I think the State has several tricks up their sleeve with this case. I think they are being stealth, not incompetent.

      I think they will far outsmart MOM and the defense gang and the ending will be a very obvious guilty verdict.

  82. Dennis says:

    Here is an inspiring song to help us get through our waiting for the verdict.

  83. disappointed says:

    You know I honestly believe he should just shut up! As a mother, a woman and just a decent human being I think he needs to not say another word. He has lied so much and said to much that he can not ever take back or gloss over. What human being fighting for their life who truly believes they have no choice but to fire a hollow point bullet into the heart of another person does not have REGRETS? Who fires a hollow point bullet into a child to later find out by police broke no laws and NOT have any regrets? How do you explain to anyone that God planned this?
    Fogen has accused Trayvon of being up to no good, on drugs or sumpin, suspicious, running, skipping, sucker punching him and worst of all arming himself with a sidewalk, how does he come back from that? No he really needs to shut up. Fogen himself followed by car, on foot, needlessly called NEN on a teen for no reason, struggled with a minor child, pointed, aimed and fired a hollow point bullet into the chest of a kid who RAN because he was scared of this worthless pos.
    The worst part of all this Trayvon said I AM BEGGING YOU, he screamed for his life and Fogen shot him and stole from him. He stole the child’s dying screams. No Fogen needs to sit there and stfu, he has said more than enough. I do not wish to hear another bad word about Trayvon Benjamin Martin from this worthless creepy ass cracker.
    I do hope when he packs for prison he packs enough knuckle bandages to cover his ass, I have a feeling someone is going to make him their bitch. jmo

    • Romaine says:

      aaaahhh if only he could purchase a chastity belt and leave the key with lil she’lie, even then his life will not continue to be spared the pain it has earned…FOGEN has a debt to pay that can never be paid with money, KARMA doesn’t accept credit, requires payment in full..is patient, diligent , and just…I admire KARMA it is imperfectly perfect in its own given time. I marvel at its success, its vengeance is sweet when you least expect it . although you may want to rejoice in it; when you see it taking its course, you refrain from that celebration, yet you are thankful for to be allowed the ability to witness the justice due to its offender.

      • Romaine says:

        excuse my punctuation errors, my grandson is driving me nuts right now….he’s like that lil engine that just won’t stop talking….

      • Christopher Charles says:

        I agree: “KARMA it is imperfectly perfect in its own given time. I marvel at its success, its vengeance is sweet when you least expect it . although you may want to rejoice in it; when you see it taking its course, you refrain from that celebration, yet you are thankful for to be allowed the ability to witness the justice due to its offender.”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      If only he’d get on the stand and confess!

    • Malisha says:

      I believe most if not all prisoners are going to leave him alone. Very much alone. I think even the guards are going to leave him alone and those who don’t will be regarded with suspicion by their brethren. I think Fogen will be a pariah and eventually he will suffer more from being ignored than from anything else. I hope so.

    • sadlyyes says:

      trained soldiers have remorse when killing,most ordinary people would even in self defense…maggotFoagy is not normal

  84. KA says:

    I have to say, I think the defense was thrilled with the Hannity interview and police interview being entered into evidence.

    I saw how opposed MOM was to Judge Nelson asking GZ direct questions and then when he was to explain the little “bail blip” to Lester, MOM was adamant that the State did not get to cross. When Lester told him that is not how that works, he did not let GZ on the stand then. There was no jury there…

    The State wanted a SYG hearing to cross examine GZ, they have said it several times.

    I do not think he will testify because I think MOM thinks he is winning this and that the State has not proved their case. I do not think he is just saying that, I think he believes it.

    • Mary says:

      i think o’mara actually believes it’s pretty hopeless. his despration has been being demonstrated for sometime now.

      a worldly man like o’mara, who has seen a lot in his time, doesn’t buy the load of malarkey george hasbeen selling.

      i would wager o’mara has figured out exactly what happened that night, and knows it doesn’t favor his client.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree. O’Mara always has this “oh shit” look on his face. West has been doing all of the smiling in Fogen’s posse.

      • KA says:

        I have to say, I cannot find a major media outlet analyst saying that GZ has any chance of conviction right now

        All of them give reasons that drastically disregard huge amounts of evidence to the contrary. ABC’s analyst is saying that even if the State is successful at showing GZ is a liar, he still believes the jury will have no choice but acquit.

        It makes me wonder if they are actually watching the same trial…

  85. My Forehead Tho says:

    ~Off Topic~

    There’s this young girl by the name of Talia, you might recognize her in the picture below, who has been battling two cancers and may have begun her transition from this world into the next. Because of this, “#prayfortalia” has been trending worldwide on twitter. All her family asks is that you send your prayers because, according to them, she’s in desperate need of them:

  86. YQ says:

    @ Professor Leatherman- I agree fully to the article posted above, although I’m not justified by the facts posted here. I just have a hunch that he will and even moreso if the cross on de Mayo shows overwhelming evidence. I hope that we are right…

  87. colin black says:

    Our legal system guards and protects the sanctity of the jury room and juror deliberations. A jury is never required to explain or justify its verdict. As a result, a jury actually gets to decide what constitutes reasonable doubt, even though they are never told that they have this power. The jury is a reflection of the community and it acts as the conscience of the community when it decides whether the prosecution has proved the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt

    This to me is where in essence law an order breaks down .

    An becomes a crap shoot.

    Jurours don’t just have the option to follow the law and or instuctions and or evidence

    Bot forenscic an circumstncial.

    Jurys can will an do return perverce verdicts an have donce since the jury system was invented in about 15th century Brittian

    In Fact at one point dureing farmers revolts an non payment of taxes.

    Then a hanging offence or a prison if you were Gentle folk a Lord or such but none the less debtors prison until you paid back taxes

    Wich was a life sentence if you had no money .

    As cholera an disease black death ect plague were rife along whith all the veneral s t d of the day..

    But so many Jury just declared the prisoners not guilty that the system was suspended.

    As you point out jurours are answerable to know one an as in the O J an Caylee murderer they blatantly let guilty people walk fee..

    I feel a similar system of lets call them the great an the good.
    People beyond approach ..

    Never an advertised position but lets say retired proffesinals from all walks of life.

    A Gene pool so to speak of say a few thousand people per county.
    Ex doctors Firemmen E M T . Postmen Nurses Barmen Bank Clerks L E .Doctors Flower sellers Executives ect..

    All people with no priors an even regarded an respected in there work an social environment.

    An thease people should br approached and asked if they wish to serve with in a pool of profesinal jurours.

    Picking couples at retirement age would render hardships null an void as no work an no dependant children.

    And or also maybe widows an widowers.
    Could lead to a few love stotys

    Anyway once chosen theas people could seve say for an initial 18mnth period with an option to extend to 3 years if they wished to .
    An also of course [ay them a wage on top of there pension.

    The occcasinal sequestered Tria;l would not be a fear or inconveinance to thease snow white birds.

    It would be a bonus .like a vacation with no house keeping an room sevice.

    Id sign up if it were possible.

    WOULD YOU……..?.

    • KA says:

      I think in a post long ago, Prof Leatherman said that one type of evidence is not stronger than the other really. All is up to interpretation of the jurors and what they related to and got out of it.

      I think sometimes circumstantial is more powerful because it applies human reasoning and logical sequence. When physical evidence supports it, it becomes like “glue” that holds various types of evidence together.

      • Dennis says:

        I also read that in an article by a person in the legal field that was very upset with the Casey Anthony jury for returning a Not Guilty verdict. He said physical evidence and circumstantial evidence are equivalent in the eyes of the court system. It is the jurors that decide how much weight to give to that evidence by their abilities to connect the dots and tie it to the case.

        He said that the prosecution proved 1st degree murder. The juror that went on the news complained about the fact that they didn’t know how Caylee died. This guy says that although it is nice to have a body and a murder weapon, a cause of death isn’t required for a murder conviction. They must only prove “criminal agency”; that the death was a homicide as opposed to an accident.

      • Dennis says:

        I just found the article after some digging on Google. It is about the brainwashed jury and the dangers of jury sequestering.


        • KA says:

          Ah Groupthink….yes, Janus hit the nail on the head about the effects….

          Actually, I have theories that Janus’s theory can explain the corporate contributions of the recession and current global economic conditions.

          Anyway, probably not for this forum…

    • Ms.X says:

      I still would not want to sign up for a jury even under the circumstances you described. The only way I would want to serve is if jurors could ask questions & request evidence, go to the crime scene, watch reenactments. There is no point in hearing evidence performed by prosecution & defense with each side actors. Like I posted in the past, there was a high profile case here (in Galveston, TX) where the defendant was a very wealthy person, Again his name was Robert Durst. Even though he admitted to killing his neighbor and cutting his body into pieces and throwing them in the bay, he was acquited. If you want to know, the rich are the fucking punks that always get away. gz was by no means rich, but he has made a million dollars from murdering Trayvon, Those 5 or 6 new suits and Burberry tie were purchased with the blood money. omara will also make a million from his book deal or consulting on the made for tv movie, osterman has made $ from his book as well as frank taffy from his new gig as a tv commentator on HLN/CNN. gz’s dad is trying to make $ from promoting hate in his book, and countless strangers have made $ reproducing Tray’s image on merchandise. Tray’s parents have made over a million, yet seem to not have spent it on clothes, jewelry or gourmet food, Surely some of it has gone into their foundation to help save our sons who have not yet been killed.I see the parents as being so strong because they are advocating at the same time they are enduring bereavement. I know my aunt died when she was 40 from scleraderma, yet my grandmother never got over it.That was her youngest & she talked about her every day no matter what, The parents deeply suffer from the death of a child.

      I have digressed, but my point of all this is to point out that I think the system is perverted in a perverted society. If justice is done, its usually by luck. There are thousands in prison injustly and more thousands who are guilty and get off on a technicality. When I was growing up I knew kids from affluent families that were able to get them out of trouble, have their records expunged, and let them go on with their lives. The same is not true for poor kids who may have committed similar crimes. This is not just. I don’t really want to involve myself in this system.

      • colin black says:

        Oh I know all about the Durst an there Money own half of Manhattan Island an R Durst not oly offed that old geezer in the boarding house .
        But also His wife body never recovered an never charged

        An another women his former Best friend whom had the goods on him also rnded up with a bullet in her scull .

        So that’s thre frigging murdered the cross dressing murderous demon has gotten a pass on.

        The coulour of injustice an freedom is green dollar grren it makes no diference what ethnicity tyou hail from.

        Dollar green is the ticket to freedom.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        I don’t think I could listen to the testimony on any given day, and not discuss it. That is not natural. Hate to say, but I really wouldn’t care about your dogs, kids or cars during this time period. I think it is absurd to expect the jurors to take in every nuance and subtle point made during testimony and hang on to it until deliberations. Then go back and rehash what they recall amongst 5 others who also are relying on their individual remembered/noted high points. I don’t think jurors will/do/have poured over the evidence/exhibits/testimony the way we have been afforded.
        I think they go to deliberations, having been thoroughly confused by “reasonable”, and just go with their overall thoughts on the case. No one wants to be considered “unreasonable” by what the court considers their peers. Notice how easily discord flares up on all boards/blogs when the equivalent of an eyeroll is expressed? See it in person, and it could get ugly.

        I think they should be able to discuss the case amongst themselves throughout the proceedings. I like the “juror questions” aspect of the AZ proceedings. I, personally, couldn’t make small talk with my fellow jurors during the sequestration period. I think jurors would build alliances during these casual chats as opposed to actually getting to know someone through their thoughts on the “job” before me as a juror. I would appear as standoffish and an odd duck for sure…..there is nothing else I would want to talk about……

        Is this current all-female jury really fair to a male defendant? Sexist I know, but , we are not all alike.
        It really looks like an appeal issue to me, if need be.

        • KA says:

          I am not sure….there have been MANY all male juries for females and males on trial.

          With this being a “unique” situation with an all female jury when women are 51% or so of the worlds population…it shows a little bias in jury selection which may communicate a message that men make a better, more stable juror.

          Of course, being in the corporate world for a long dang time, I know that “better, more stable” image of a “decision maker” is already systemic…

      • Malisha says:

        my point of all this is to point out that I think the system is perverted in a perverted society.


  88. bellesouth says:

    You know the arrogance of the lawyers might get him to testify, too. I am sure MOM thinks he can make it all ok.

    • racerrodig says:

      The worst thing for Fogen is The Moron Man telling him it’s your call and I’ll ask questions that you can easily wiggle your way out with, forgetting that the state will rip him apart.

      Don’t forget he’s a mental midget who thinks he a superior being. In short he thinks he can sell ice to Eskimos and he’s flat out wrong.

      • aussie says:

        Maybe GZ can suddenly FALL ILL just before cross-examination is due to start. And his lawyers will generously offer to waive having it.

  89. mgs710 says:

    Professor, isn’t a self-defense defense similar to an insanity defense in that it is an affirmative defense and that it must be proven with a preponderance of evidence?

  90. whonoze says:

    Ellohae ewnay oreignfae oggersblay!

  91. PYorck says:

    I am not sure if he will testify, but I think one reason why we may want to is that he seems to be a control freak. I am sure he would hate the idea of his fate being completely out of his hands.

    The word ‘sociopath’ comes up a lot when in discussions of GZ. I think there are good reasons for that – and not simply to make him sound more evil. He seems to have serious problems with empathy and understanding how others see him. That’s why his life is full of so many shortsighted and pointless lies. That’s why he doesn’t get that his superficial politeness and Peter-Lorre-in-M demeanor rub many people the wrong way. In his own mind he is a lot more convincing.

    • KA says:

      I think his reaction in court have been obvious of someone with a limited ability to show emotion (except smiling at his own interview)…

      DO you notice he is “flat” at the replaying of the 911 tape? If that was him, he should have a strong reaction.

    • KA says:

      I am also thinking he will not testify. His team has been far too antsy about it before NOT in front of a jury, I suspect they will greatly discourage him now to do it.

      The defense thinks they are winning,

  92. LiveByTheGulf says:

    I noticed a tv person demonstrating that Fogen had his gun on the right side. Sorry if someone has already caught & discussed this.

    In this blog’s archives:
    The evidence will also show that the defendant was a 5’8,” 207 pound 28-year-old Neighborhood Watch Captain, professionally trained fighter and former bouncer, who was armed with a fully loaded 9 mm semiautomatic handgun that he carried in a holster concealed from view inside the right rear waistband of his pants.

    Fogen is left-handed. If the holster were on the back of the right hip, Fogen would use a cross draw to get the gun. Crossdraw [for right-handed person] —a holster worn on your support [weak] side. When drawing your gun, you will use your right hand to draw from a holster you wear on the left side of your body.

    Again from this blog’s archive: Frederick wrote: “The defendant said he pinned Trayvon’s hand against his chest with the upper part of his right arm and then grabbed the gun with his right hand and fired the fatal shot taking care not to shoot his left hand.”

    The gun in the holster would have been positioned for a cross-draw with the left hand.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s already been established that his holster was reversible, made to be worn on either the right or ledt hip, and that Fogen wore it on his right hip and did not crossdraw it. He was a right-handed shooter. He demonstrates in his SPD interview and again in his reenactment how he drew the gun from his right hip with his right hand.

    • Mary says:

      in his interminable harangue on the first day, i believe west noted that although he is left handed, z uses his gun right handed.

      or else he said, he is right handed for everything except writing.

    • KA says:

      I believe the dominant hands in the reenactment video and GZ’ descriptions will prove impossible considering the dominant hands, and other physical issues.

      Mantei said it in the closing, multiple versions (they only have two or three shown right now), physical impossibility, exaggeration of injuries, timing issues, absence of any blood/DNA make the whole self defense story bunk.

      I saw someone say on a TV show that they showed him lying, they proved following, they may have shown he was potentially the aggressor, but they had not disproved that it was not self defense or of a depraved mind.

      I thought that confusing. If GZ claims self defense, and the witnesses never saw the shot, if he is proven that most things were lies, there is no evidence the fight went down the way he said, and he targeted a teen he didn’t know to follow, would that NOT prove depraved mind and make self defense completely improbable, as well as unbelievable?

      • MDH says:

        Calling another person “suspect”, “F’in punk”, “asshole” without any probable cause is evidence of a depraved mind.

        Shooting a boy on the chest, sitting on him while he expires, and not providing any aid and comfort is evidence of a depraved mind.

        Depraved does not mean Jack the Ripper.

        It means you have reduced another human being to an object such that you feel actions you take that could kill “the object” are inconsequential.

        I will give an example.

        Let us say that A was driving down a street at a high rate of speed with lots of kids playing. A was observed to say “F’in street urchins, don’t they know that the street is for cars?”. Later he hits and kills one of the kids in an accident that could have been avoided if he slowed down. A’ statement would be evidence of a depraved mind.

        In short, a depraved mind is exemplified by a callous disregard for the life of others with respect to acts committed by the depraved.

        As it should be.

        If GZ had made any effort to see T as human being or to see how going after T with a loaded gun ready to fire was endangering the lives of others, then none of this would have happened. His depraved mind is the ultimate cause of this tragedy.

        I say others because what if T had been able to knock GZ’s firing arm and the bullet went through one of the windows of the homes and struck sons, wives, husbands or daughters?

        Key term

        Menace to society.

        That is what GZ is and will be, if he is set free.

      • MedicineBear says:

        It’s simple. A creepy guy following a kid walking home has sinister intent. Ill-will. Depraved mind.

      • SearchingMind says: