Saturday morning open thread

Saturday, July 7, 2013

Good morning to everyone:

We have people following our blog from all over the world and I want to encourage all of them to say hello and introduce themselves in this Saturday morning open thread.

Manue from the Basque country in SW France is the most recent lurker to introduce herself. Welcome, Manue!

Crane and I have stuff to do this morning. We will be back this afternoon.

Later today, I will post an article on whether GZ will testify.


658 Responses to Saturday morning open thread

  1. whenever i read something about O’Maras argument he put forward for acquittal i always think back to this seen in a classic Aussie movie….although the guys in the clip are the good guys it still reminds me of Omara’s bumbling ways

    and i think Judge Nelson makes an appearance

    “it’s the vibe of it”

  2. KateW says:

    In reference to an earlier post, so they do not have the text messages Zimmerman sent the night and days post the killing and when he was placed in jail? They only have the calls. Is that right?
    If they only have the calls, why were they not able to get the text messages?

    • aussie says:

      I think the messages are part of an order from the Judge, to not disclose, for privacy of the other party. They can debate this I think, if they want to bring them in. They’d probably have to show the judge they are relevant to the case. It would not be fair to bring in unrelated texts to innocent people not at all involved.

      They’ve not made any use of any of it so far.

  3. ay2z says:

    Thanks for all the Gladyz interviews. Will work my way through them this evening to glean where she says that’s her son’s voice on the 911 call. (suspect I’ll be listening a long time to hear that though)

    (wanted to say thanks quickly, and then back later after a late supper to listen. Meanwhile, will put Mr. Mantai on again to finish his rebuttal par excellance)

  4. aussie says:

    There’s haters and bigots for everything

    here’s a set of anti-Asian garbage after that Korean plane CRASHED. ‘

    Yeah never mind people died and many more could have, priority is to hate on them.
    Looks like he was a bit short of the runway, tried to get a big of height at a sharp angle, did a tail strike that dragged off the tail, caused it to lose control. Better than going in nose first that 10 or 30 feet too low.

    They don’t land these things by eye. It’s done by computer. Bet someone hadn’t set it correctly for sea level.

  5. mgs710 says:

    Professor, isn’t a self-defense defense similar to an insanity defense in that it is an affirmative defense and that it must be proven with a preponderance of evidence?

  6. ay2z says:

    A new short report on the Honeybee. If you haven’t found Crane-Stations thread about the serious plight of the bees, check it out from last month or so in the archives.

    Here is today’s story from Canada. (we are all in this together)

    More theory on the cause of colony collapse being pesticides, so one solution.

  7. Rachael says:

    Total lunatics. They are trying to crack the case of the piece of metal awning and figure out if it was really a slim jim and OMG – they are unreal. It was a piece of awning found 4 days after the investigation and it wasn’t what they thought it was. But these guys are saying that is why Trayvon was skipping and just OMG, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

    How crazy is that?

    How obviously bigoted can they get? Even though it was not a slim jim, they have assumed it really had to be because he is a black kid so he must be a thug because all black male teens are thugs, and all thugs and all thugs burglarize so therefore anytime you see a black male teen, they are here for one reason and one reason only an that is to burglarize our homes. It is like they are PROVING the case for the State!!!! I mean seriously, what does that say about them that even if it was a slim jim that was found – 4 days later – so it HAS to have been him. I mean after all, he does fit the profile I mean description. ARGGGHHHHHHH

    But here is one of the really funny ones:

    “It’s possible (slim jim responsible for the skipping) but for whatever reason, black teens in my area do all kinds of different kinds of perambulation, and one of the more common sights is seeing them skipping followed by a hop or two, followed by a walk. The sequence can vary, but the skipping is common, and the walk can speed up, then slow. They seem to like to do it a lot in crosswalks (I am sure they know it pisses off impatient drivers) and in my town they do it a lot on the sidewalks of busy streets, as if the sole purpose of it is to be noticed.”

    I mean geez, black teens skipping and hopping all over the place. I mean can’t get much thugier than that. Why don’t they rob houses, burglarize some cars and smoke a couple bowls like normal black teen male thugs. Can’t have any of that skippin n hoppin in the streets. Leads to murder. I mean look at what hoppin and skippin did to GZ. Because Trayvon was skipping leisurely in the rain he looked suspicious so GZ had no choice but to kill him, don’t you understand? He was SKIPPING in the RAIN gasp

    Are those people for real? Part of me wants to laugh but if it is really for real, that’s not good.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Insane racist.

    • Jasmine says:

      You would think that that would make the jury see how Fogen profiled Trayvon based on what a previous person did. I am not sure if they will see it that way or not but to have it emphatically stated that way….well they would have to be blind in one eye and not able to see out of the other.

  8. rnewton32 says:

    I know there are some who are losing faith in the prosecution. Don’t! Keep the faith. I truly believe the Prosecution is going to go to town during the rebuttal and cross examination of the defense.So it’s all fresh in the juror’s minds; And the cherry on the icing of the cake will wrap it up in the closing statements. And if the Murder 2 falls through, Manslaughter will be the safety net which will get him just as much time as the murder charge. Hoodies up and keep the faith everyone!

  9. YQ says:

    My cousin got that “hard 60”. I can see Zimmerman getting a steep sentence if convicted.

  10. bettykath says:

    The timeline has a couple of breaks that tend to mislead. The scale is in 10 seconds increments. The first break is in the initial showing of W8’s call to Trayvon. It begins at 6:54:16 which is 16 minutes, 5 seconds before GZ says “he’s just staring at me”. It doesn’t show when GZ’s call begins. It then goes in 10 second increments until GZ’s call ends at 7:13:40 when it jumps to 7:15:30 and shows W8 call ending 7:15:43, 10 second increments to first 911 call at 7:16:11.

    There are some things missing. First of all, a picture should accurately reflect the time. While technically accurate by showing breaks, it is misleading by “showing” the amount of lapsed time greatly reduced.

    The beginning of GZs nen call should be shown.

    The time of gun shot needs to be added.

    Whose timeline is it?

    • Dee says:

      However, when are they going to do all of this time figuring out. Didn’t the prosecution rest? So when is all of this going to come in, all of this about the time line.

      • mrsdoubtfire says:

        Im hoping the Prosecution have hedged their bets and will be able to use and elaborate on the exhibits either during their rebuttal case or to empeach Z if he decides to take the stand.

        Z needs to change his timeline yet again either directly or leave it to one of his lawyers to suggest he was confused after such a traumatic event.

        That’s why Z’s specific and self serving lies need to be laid out for this jury. Its a pattern.

    • bettykath says:

      it’s from the defense. no wonder the misleading picture. hope the prosecution does one that’s more accurate.

  11. Malisha says:

    Colin B, when my kid was in college for some unknown reason he bought a pet snake. The snake had to be fed mice so my kid got pet mice. Then he started to like the mice so he didn’t want to feed the snake. Two of his high school girlfriends visited him and they fell in love with the mice. It was a strange scene. One of the girlfriends would let the mice out of the cage to run around and she played games with them and fed them popcorn. A male mouse “raped” a female (my kid said the female screamed at him!) so he kicked the male out (put him in the backyard) but the guy kept hanging around the back door begging to come back in. My son said, “He’s not getting back in; he’s anti-social!”

    Those little mammals! It’s hard to believe they defeated the dinosaurs, innt?

    • Johnnie says:

      “He’s not getting back in; he’s anti-social.” That
      is too funny. I can’t stand mice or rats but this is a cute story. Thanks for the laugh. Made my day.

  12. colin black says:

    looneydoone says:

    July 6, 2013 at 10:40 am

    Hola from the *trailer park* of Latin America 😉

    on a side note
    MiSombra snuck a mouse into the house, and lost it. The mouse had hidden itself in our bedding…thought I was going to have a stroke when awakened at 3am by it running across my legs !!!
    Oh the joys of having been adopted by a feral cat…

    Toerag my big nutered Tom Tabby…

    An not a ferrall bone iin his body is soft lets other cats whom he could semd ionto orbit with a shrug dominate him.

    He catches baby mice his entire mouth an teeth are like a there cage sept a wee bit tail hanging oot like spaghetti.

    Totally unharmed and he lets them go.

    Apparently its a gift an he wants to teach me how to hunt.

    Also have Two magpies in a tree in the strret aoutside our house
    Wee have a post card sized garden about 20 feet long 8 ft wide

    An every year except this one a fledgleing has landed in our garden and Toerag carries it in alive an presentys us with them.

    There was a lady whom rescued hedge hogs an birds used to collect them,

    But the last three I ve let the magpies use my bathroom put a wee carboard bbox that mt better halfs catheters arrive in

    A Call em piis bags but there brillisnt nesting boxes.

    Leave the window opemn an they hopin an feed there baby.

    At first they used to mob toerag the adults but now they have a special friendly call when they see him
    An never attack him any more

    Weird but Birds an specialy Magpies are way smart.

    I even get to watch them fly first time

    If it happens now thst ive sussed out movie maker thingie I can try an vt it…..

  13. dasha says:

    Hello! Lurker here. I’m an attorney myself and usually very pro-defense (I was a public defender for a bit). But in this case I really can’t even see the defense’s side at all. It’s bothering me that I can’t even see it– I should be able to at least *imagine* a world in which GZ is not guilty…but I cannot. Am I guilty of the same bias as those pro-GZ people? I’d like to think no, but now I’m not so sure.

    • Susan Moore says:

      Hello, another lurker here and another usually pro-defense lawyer when it comes to criminal cases (I mostly do civil plaintiff’s cases), and I’ve been questioning myself much the same way. Just yesterday, my life partner and I were marveling at ourselves for rooting for the prosecution and questioning whether we were being biased in this case. But, then we went over the evidence again, including all of Zimmerman lies, and the state’s initial reluctance to investigate the wholly unnecessary death of an innocent youth and, well, we are satisfied with our position. I might add that we are pro-2d Amendment, but believe that it’s necessary to be responsible and avoid confrontation if armed. We find the pro-Z crowd disingenuous in their claims it is self-defense, since it’s entirely physically impossible for Z’s rendition of the facts to have occurred and, if they know anything about firearms, they know it!

      • I know how conflicted you feel. I was a criminal defense lawyer for 30 years and did a lot of death penalty work. I never worked as a prosecutor and never wanted to. In fact, I could not even imagine myself working as a prosecutor.

        Then I read about this case, and the rest as they say is history.

        Welcome to the blog.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dasha & Susan — Greeting and good to have your viewpoints. For us non-lawyers, I think it all boils down to common sense on the Trayvon Martin case facts. But I do understand why you and the professor find this an unusual position in which to find yourselves.

        Good defense lawyers are much needed and are well deserving of respect. But the two on this case give the very concept of defense a bad name.

    • parrot says:

      Welcome, dasha!

      It’s no wonder. The facts are so egregious.

    • Malisha says:

      dasha, I think you can’t imagine a world in which Fogen is not guilty because there IS no such world. In the real world, Fogen is GUILTY.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      So you think you should be able to simply toss a coin in the air and take the indicated side? Otherwise you’re not capable of being fair?
      That doesn’t even sound like a rational premise.

  14. Thanks Romaine for the timeline, GZ’s NEN called end at 7:13:43 and TM’s call to Rachel ended 7:15:40, he had two minutes to return to his truck, so where was Zimmerman? Notice that MOM never address that to JN after the state rested. His best friend testified that Z told him that it was 30 seconds after GZ hangup with NEN, he was confronted by TM, but that’s not what the timeline tell us. He should been in his truck by 7:15, and he’s nowhere he said he was. If he stopped following TM, he would had been in his truck. It doesn’t make sense.

    • Romaine says:

      You are welcome Charlie

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      The timeline supports Rachel’s version to a T…. pardon the pun Except we know Z was not at the T when he and Trayvon came together. “Right by his daddy’s house” could certainly fit with what Selene Bahador testified to.

  15. degraveegmailcom says:

    OT.Airplane from S.Korea crashed at San Fransisco airport,not sure
    if everybody made it out.Happened about 1 hr ago

  16. Dennis says:

    How was the scumbag defense team allowed to mention the “marijuana”? There is no scientific evidence that says marijuana makes you violent, in fact it is pretty much the opposite. There is no reliable test that says Trayvon was “high” either. Marijuana shows up in your system for up to 30 days or more. There is no evidence he was high and no weed or pipe was found on his person. Judge Nelson is a joke for allowing this crap to be discussed in court.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      She kept to her original order she did not let them talk about that in front of the jury.

    • Dennis says:

      Not that Judge Nelson is a horrible judge, but has had a few blunders in this case.

    • Dee says:

      I agree. I thought that wasn’t allowed. Because Marijuana makes you hungry not violent, and it doesn’t make you want to fight. On the other hand. The disease that Zimmerman has ADD if not treated, or if he was not on his medication could have cause Zimmerman to pursue Trayvon in a manner he
      thought in his mind that he was a real cop. And that this was his job to do. Which in returned made him kill this kid and use the law that he was learned in order to defend this murder. Why wasn’t any of these things brought up in the trail by the prosecution.

      The only thing I can see is that they are making it possible to force Zimmerman to testify that is the only thing I can see why the prosecutors are handling this case the way they have been. They don’t look like they are incompetent and don’t know what they are doing. I was very disappointed on Friday the trial. However, the reason they put the mother up first, Was that the evidence room was locked, and they couldn’t get what they needed out to show the guy from the coroner.

      And they didn’t want to waste any time not doing anything until the door was opened. At the same time, they should have just taken a break, instead of using their best testimony to be eaten up with the foolishness that went on with the doctor. Which was supposed to be an expert in his field, that was a joke.

      • Dennis says:

        They mentioned that he took a class where you learn how to be a good witness or whatever. One of his instructors said he covered Stand Your Ground extensively in the online course, even though it was not reading material in the book. This proves Fogen lied and knew about Stand Your Ground.

        • Malisha says:

          If he took a class in how to be a good witness, either he flunked or he didn’t get his money’s worth!

    • Girlp says:

      If I can I will try to find where West got his research but I believe there research comes from a drug trial on people who have supposedly become addicted to MJ, my understanding it is the withdrawal from the test drug that caused violent behavior not the MJ. However I have also read a person who relies on MJ can become a bit paranoid if they are off for a period of time my understanding is that it is very very rare and I don’t believe Trayvon had this issue/or there is no proof Trayvon had an addiction or was in some kind of withdrawal in any case the judge found it irrelevant.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Most kids that age are occasional users and probably not subject to the stuff that happens to chronic users.

    • Dave says:

      Bernie is in an awkward position here. He knows as well as anyone that Marijuana doesn’t cause violent behavior, but can you picture a conservative Republican prosecutor making that argument in court?

    • fauxmccoy says:


      the mj was not discussed before the jury. judge nelson was holding a richardson hearing because of the notes the ME was reading during testimony. these notes were not his original case notes and had not been seen by either sets of attorneys. the attorneys are entitled to see whatever notes a witness is reading from and the defense was attempting to argue that the witness had been coached which the judge rejected.

  17. OT:
    Live stream coverage of the Boeing 777 crash at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) is here:

  18. smokeegyrl says:

    I want to thank those on this blog, who let me be me, giving me respect, not criticizing my faith when I speak of God. Letting me speak my mind and opinion without ridiculing it. Is not a spell or grammar freak. What a great Blog! lmao.

    Creole: Mwen vle di mèsi sa ki sou blog sa a, ki moun ki kite m ‘gen m’, ban m ‘respè, pa kritike jan mwen gen konfyans lè m’ap pale Bondye a. Kite m ‘pale tèt mwen ak opinyon san yo pa ridikulizan li. Se pa yon freak eple oswa gramè. Ki sa ki yon Blog gwo! LMAO.

  19. Puck says:

    I re-watched Raymond MacDonald’s testimony (the T-Mobile witness) and two sets of records from two T-Mobile subscribers were entered into evidence without saying whose they were. I assume one is GZ’s and the other is Trayvon’s — I don’t see why anyone else’s records are important.

    • Puck says:

      More important points:

      – Mantei made a point of asking MacDonald about how text messages are indicated (with a D and either 0 or 1 minute) and that they’re listen in Pacific time.

      – Mantei pointed out GZ’s 7:08 call to NEN as well as GZ’s 7:18 call to SPD/NEN.

      – Mantei has MacDonald to explain that calls that are “pushed” to voicemail are listed as an 805 number.

      From this my inference is that these will come in later as important evidence in piecing it all together. I still don’t know if merely having the billing records means the contents of texts can be read.

      • Rachael says:

        Billing records only give the times and lengths of calls. To actually get the texts, that would be something separate.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          The second record wasthe actual texts, that are only saved for 6 months, it was priceless testimony , he was smiling big time.

    • Puck says:

      And it’s clear those are GZ & TM’s records, because they were released to the public the day of that testimony.

    • Malisha says:

      I think Shellie’s, Tim Smith’s, Osterman’s, Taaffe’s and SERINO’s are also important. But they would implicate SPD so they won’t be revealed.

  20. Romaine says:

    here is a copy of the visual time line, don’t know if this is what someone tried to post earlier.

    • Girlp says:

      CTH tried to tie the timeline problem but it’s George’s problem….I’m sure the nut treehousers will think up something.

  21. Tee says:

    Yesterday I was watching a woman on a game show hit her head on the concrete her eyes were so black it was scary. I dont know how people really looked at that man and said he had black eyes. The PA should have been impeached on that bullshit she put in her report. I am a nurse and i’ve seen plenty of black eyes from having a nose broken and they never was like those.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      Tee what did you think when you saw those knuckle bandages on the killers head?

      • Tee says:

        I wanted to use my knuckles on him. I’v seen bigger boo boos on my 4 yrd old & that boy stay jumping off of things I had to grow a third eye for him.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          Tee, you think your 4 yr old is a regular jumping jack, my great-granddaughter and great nieces and nephews are constantly displaying their jumping jack and climbing abilities. I can’t begin to tell the jumping and climbing activities of these aerobic toddlers in my family. Mine almost make Evil Knievel look amateur, so I know what you mean about developing a third eye. 🙂

          Not only do you have to develop a third eye with these toddlers in my family, you need a strong heart and nerve system to keep from having a cardiac arrest or a nervous breakdown with my little dare devils. 🙂

        • HereslookingatYou says:

          Agreed……..,seriously who would believe those where life threatening injuries,, he probably ran into a tree and fell and hit his head on the roots…
          And Nurse Ratchet should never make it to be a nurse ,,,he looked like a fool…another attempt at deceit

          • HereslookingatYou says:


          • Rachael says:

            Really – she should receive a harsher perjury sentence for the stupid bandaids than even the bond.

            But at least we can see that the two are made for each other. A marriage made in hell.

    • Dennis says:

      The PA was a complete joke. That person has no business working in the medical field.

      It is common sense that somebody like Fogen would go to a hospital and get x-rays. His lack of a hospital visit proves his wounds were not anything close to severe. The x-rays would also help further his case of self-defense, but he did not get them and it is obvious why.

      • Dave says:

        She probably does her actual job of providing routine medical care well enough but she isn’t a forensic pathologist. The prosecution never should have let her get away with testifying as an expert witness and diagnosing injuries from digital photos. They didn’t even ask her if and how she could tell when the little bumps and scratches in the photos were incurred.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Yes she is a joke. Bilateral black eyes my ass. And how it it likely that someone has a broken nose with no deviated septum? Isn’t that what the phuck a broken nose is? It’s also interesting that in none of her notes did she write that his head had been slammed on concrete 25 times and BDLR needs every square inch of his ass kicked for not asking her where in her notes he tells her this. He didn’t. That’s why she didn’t order any xrays. Finally, Zimmerman has looked like he has black eyes this entire trial. He keeps dark circles under his eyes ole never go to sleep need some Propofol like Michael Jackson restless ass bastard.

        • elle says:

          Tasha, I have what doctor’s call allergic shiners. I always have perfect brown circles around my eyes. I have terrible allergies. Oddly, they do not look too bad on me, but I worry about aging with them. No matter how I treat my allergies, they are always there. fogen is constantly wiping his nose on his sleeve. So disgusting!

      • aussie says:

        Actually, looking at the PHONE records for the night, after they let him go from the police station, calls and texts were coming in and out nonstop. He GOT NO SLEEP THAT NIGHT. So yes, next day he may have had a few circles under his eyes from lack of sleep.

        Circles and black are not the same thing. But he’s a manipulator, probably manipulated this PA plenty already. Said it was for a work note, didn’t say it was evidence for murder trial, she’d see no harm going along with what he reckons he was told he had wrong.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Fogen’s so-called black eyes were nearly invisible. At the very least, the PA should have noted Fogen’s bruising around the eyes as being nearly non-existent.

  22. KateW says:

    The prosecution needs to hit home that Trayvon, despite the prosectuion saying he caused his own death, WAS RUNNING FROM danger, not to it. Now if he turned around and attacked GZ, he had a right to do so. He was fleeing and the threat persisted to the point that perhaps he had to defend himself, if it went down the way GZ says it did. However, the threat persisted upon him despite him going the opposite direction. The threat persisted in his direction.

    • Sleuth says:

      Hi KateW

      That’s a great suggestion, and yes, there are a few other loose strings the State/Prosecution need to tie up but I have no doubt that justice for Trayvon Benjamin Martin will prevail.

      p.s. did you accidentally write, “despite the prosecution” but actually meant to say duh-fense? 🙂

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      this poor kid did not have a chance…if he walked he was suspicious…if he ran he was suspicious…if he got outta the rain he was suspicious… if he got caught in the rain he was suspicious… if he asked a logical question he was suspicious… if he defended his life he was suspicious…I mean DAYUM what the what was this child suppose to do…
      Pluhleez let these women have common sense and see this for what it is…

  23. LiveByTheGulf says:

    After reading above, could a lot of George Zimmerman’s boo-boos have occurred as a result of the gun’s recoil – Fogen’s head to the pavement, injuries to the nose.

    • Dee says:

      I think that he self-inflicted these wounds when he knew that Trayvon was carrying a gun. How many people have shot themselves after committing murder, not very hard to do with the butt of his gun. Which probably cause the cut on his nose. Remember they didn’t say that they checked the clip for DNA which they should have because this is what may have caused the cut on his head as well as his nose. Zimmerman knew that he had to have it look as though it was a stand your ground situation. He didn’t have an extra gun to throw done. So he had to hurt himself to make it look as though Trayvon has done this to him.

      Another thing who knows if he was injuries before meeting Trayon and re-opened his injuries during the fight. His hair was freshly shaven for a reason. And his wife is a nurse, which could have been the one that treated his existing injuries.

      • Trained Observer says:

        His wife is not a nurse. Trayvon was not carrying a gun.

        • Dee says:

          Maybe you need to check up on it. Because she was a student nurse before Zimmerman got into this trouble. And I did say that Trayvon was carrying a gun, and if I did say that it was a mistake because the only thing he was carrying is skittles and a can of tea. I may have said that Trayvon seen the gun that Meant NOT carrying a gun, sorry for that.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Shellie was taking an online course – but there are no online nursing programs. There are posters here who can provide you with the correct info – like many of Fogen and Shellie’s stories, the one about being a nursing student is a stretch.

          • Trained Observer says:

            She was not a student nurse either.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            In an area where it was so dark, it’s not possible that Trayvon saw a black gun under a momentarily dislodged garment, while facing a strange of whom he was afraid. His focus of attention would be on the face of gz, not on his body, but perhaps on his hand movements.

            One does not scream at gunpoint. One screams while under painful physical assault/battery. At gunpoint screams can only provoke the gunman to panic and fire, a terribly unwanted result that no one would dare risk. By the time Trayvon realized that gz had a firearm, all he could do was yell “Stop!” gz fired anyway, killing a helpless child, simply to aggrandize himself!

      • Sleuth says:

        I agree with most of what you’re saying, especially about recoil/kickback.

        From the moment I first saw the picture of his boo-boos I immediately thought they were caused by kickback. His own weasel lawyer even bragged about the strong recoil of the Kel-tec during his long opening statement.

        While am pleased with what the State has presented so far, I still don’t understand why they never asked any of the forensic experts about the possibility of recoil being a cause for his so called minor injuries.

        As far as the confessed murderer having injuries prior to him murdering Trayvon, I really don’t think so because it seems as though more of his blood would have been on Trayvon, but I could be wrong.

        Now as far as the confessed murderer deliberately causing his own boos-boos, nah, not so much. He’s too much of a “f—king punk” to do that.

        And the “azz hole” that he is, he will not get away this time.

        • Puck says:

          Dr. Rao did testify about the two punctate wounds at the tip of his nose. I wanted the context including the question asked and found a crappy transcript; the CNN one shows a commercial break during this part. It was a wall of text with the two speakers mashed together, but I made quick sense of it and added Qs and As:


          A: YES.





          So the State did go out of its way to point out the two pricks and have Rao explain what they were.

      • Girlp says:

        Shellie is a cosmetologist (gave facials and I believe did nails) was going to an online school to obtain a certificate or something of the sort in the nursing or medical field. She is not a nurse of any sort.

        • Malisha says:

          Nurse Maybelline. She made up his eyes on 2/27/2012 before his visit to the Physician’s Assistant.

          BTW, no concussion that night; it is extremely easy to diagnose a concussion from the reactivity of a person’s pupils to light. Every EMT and most mothers know how to do it. Light dark light dark eyes. Then check one finger three fingers two fingers, close eyes fingers to nose right left, then “do you feel like throwing up?” and you’re 99% sure of the results. It is not rocket science.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          shellie may have cut other people’s toenails for a living, but i would not consult her medically for a hangnail. 😛

    • Dave says:

      In the unlikely event that it could be proven that GZ’s nose was injured by the recoil from his pistol, I would consider that to be strong evidence that Trayvon was on top of him when he fired, with the gun within a foot of his own face.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Trayvon may have been pulling away on top but not on top beating Zimmerman and certainly not on top leaning over the sidewalk or thats where his body would have fallen.Good is the only one that claims they were lying down in a horizontal position which is a COMPLETE LIE. I believe the witnesses who looked out immediately and already saw Zimmerman on top of Martin instantly and that would not be possible if Zimmerman had to get up first. I believe Martin was in a kneeling position and Zimmerman stood over him and shot him, the blood spatter from Martin hit his right shoulder and right cuff. The recoil got Zimmerman instantly and thats why there is a mixture of his blood and Martin’s in minute specks in a couple of places. The recoil force was so great that it splattered blood onto Zimmerman’s back which also proves he was not lying down when he fired the shot. It also explains the splatter on Zimmerman’s clothes. Martin fell face forward from his knees, clutching his chest. Neighbors look out and notice Zimmerman is standing over the body. Zimmerman touches his face because he knows he’s bleeding at that point and as he frisks Martin he transfers a bloody print from his hand to Martins waistband. The above scenario explains how Zimmerman had blood on his face but almost none of it was on Martin. It also explains why Zimmerman’s clothes are mud and grass stain free. John Good is a liar. He saw Zimmerman murder Martin but like all of the bigots who take Zimmerman’s side he assumed Martin must have done something to deserve being executed.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          Also, the state needs their butts kicked for failing to point out one blaringly obvious fact from the photo of Zimmerman’s face: The blood was not flowing from his nostrils but rather those two pin pricks at the tip of his nose so its not possible that he didn’t bleed while he wrestled with Martin because the blood flowed back up his nose. IT WAS AN EXTERNAL BLEEDING INJURY, THEREFORE IT BLED EXTERNALLY NOT INTERNALLY. So the only reason none of Zimmerman’s blood is on Martin is because Martin did not cause that injury at the beginning of their struggle or at any time before he died because that blood on Zimmerman’s face, which is an external injury, would be all over Martin.

          • Puck says:

            tasha, that’s something for closing arguments. Relax.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Puck they had someone testify that all of Zimmerman’s injuries could come from a single blow to the face. I dont think those two nicks came from a punch. And if they did then they are saying Martin punched him right before he was shot, knocking Zimmerman to the concrete? My point is Zimmerman was not bleeding as he wrestled with Martin or the blood would have been found in other places. When did Zimmerman start to bleed then? Will they address this as well? The testimony of Dr. Rao still has me throwed all the way off.

        • KA says:

          I think the State plans to show that while Trayvon may have been on top, GZ was holding his shirt there, hence his arms were moving.

          Mantei referred to this in his response. They will show that the shot could not have happened in the way it did without Trayvon being held down or restrained in some way…whether top or bottom. They show the point of the “rolling” scramble after a chase and, whether top or bottom, Trayvon needed held still for the shot to go off the way it did. It allows ALL of the witnesses to be correct and neutralizes John’s “on top” testimony.

          I think the State is carrying on a very calculated, strategic defense. They do not need to show all of their cards now. There is a lot left to trial, including them having the last word to the jury.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I doubt there was much blood spatter from that shot with most of the bleeding happening internally and the shirts possibly being pulled outward. Maybe someone with more medical experience than I have could chime in on that. I think too many people think all gunshots have the type of spatter we see in movies, and it doesn’t always work that way.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            you are correct – there is very little blood spatter with entrance wound only shots, and certainly not with much projectile force. as the exhibits and forensics clearly demonstrate, the undershirt absorbed most of the external bleeding and trayvon bled out internally. splatter is seen on exit wounds.

        • Malisha says:

          I think it more likely the kickback from the gun showed he was hovering OVER Trayvon shooting at close range while holding him to prevent him from running away (grasping his hoodie).

        • Nef05 says:

          @puck – no, it’s not a closing argument. They’re not defending a dissertation. This is live and ongoing. The photo was there large and in living color. The expert was there. What better to time to point out, while the memory is fresh in the jurors mind, that the blood is NOT flowing from his nostrils. At the very least they cou8ld have tied it in with a summary witness. Now they have to wait 10days, 2 weeks or more and HOPE the jury remembers? Really?

      • aussie says:

        No need for G to be under. They might even have both been standing.

        He had to shoot from such a close range because that’s the length of his OTHER arm, bent with a twisted grip of Trayvon’s shirts so he can’t get away.

        Look again at the “lie detector” voice stress video posted up there somewhere ^^^^ look how he demonstrates grabbing (supposedly) Trayvon’s wrist. Hand out, close grasp,. twist and pull towards himself. With one arm bent to prevent escape he can’t extend the other arm, either, to take the shot.

  24. Dee says:


    • HereslookingatYou says:

      I think if the jury hears a presentation such as Mr.Mantei was laying out but even more in depth … I truly believe yes there is no escaping a guilty verdict. Now will they split the baby and go for manslaughter..could happen

      • Dee says:

        Manslaughter hold a 5 year prison live doesn’t it?

        • Dee says:

          Woops, I meant 5 year prison term doesn’t it?

          • Tee says:

            Not in Florida its 10, 20, life. And because Trayvon was a minor it carries 20 yrs minimum.

        • HereslookingatYou says:

          I think he can still get life for manslaughter I know there is an added penalty because Trayvon was a minor

        • No, not in Florida. It’s aggravated manslaughter in Florida since it was committed with a firearm causing the death of a juvenile victim. The mandatory minimum prison sentence is 35 years. That means Judge Nelson cannot sentence the defendant to less than 35 years, if the jury convicts him of manslaughter.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Dream on, Dee. Even with manslaughter he’ll be locked up for a long time. Whatever his sentence from Judge Nelson, he’ll get 10 extra years for fatal shooting of a minor.

        • Girlp says:

          I think it’s 20 or 25 years in Florida, they have much tougher sentences there. Plus he could get another 10 years for killing a minor. Not enough time IMO and it’s my understanding that Florida has a truth in sentencing law which means he would serve all his time no 5 years and 15 years probation. If I’m wrong I’m sure the Professor or someone else will correct me.

      • mrsdoubtfire says:

        Its a given that acquittal would be the worst possible outcome. So I’ll settle for manslaughter any day. The idea that Zimmerman could walk free and become the poster boy/ martyr for the 2nd amendment is nauseating. So Im glad this Jury dont have an all or nothing decision to make..and manslaughter is on the table.

    • elle says:

      He will be found guilty.

    • Mary says:

      right now, i would say that the chance of zimmerman being found guilty is at least 75%
      a) there is no one believing it is him screaming
      b) no one believes his injuries were anything but trivial
      c) the lies!!! sweet jesus, the lies!!!!
      d) imo, the forensics buried him
      e) there was no credible assertion of self-defense made
      f) cross-exam of defense witnesses by BDLR will be brutal and devastating
      g) rebuttal will be tie up all loose ends
      h) closing by mantei will be a feat of pyrotechnics.

      • Judy75201 says:

        *Like* 🙂

      • Sleuth says:

        Mary, I totally agree, and I’m willing to bet the family farm that he will be found guilty.

        I especially agree with letter (f). If BDLR does the closing I think we will see a side of him that we’ve not seen before. But then again, I really would mind if Mr. Mantei did the closing.

        • Mary says:

          my family farm too, if i had one! if i wasn’t so sure, i would have sickening feeling in my stomach. i just don’t and i keep checking for one. it’s not there. maybe i would have a SFIMS if frederick leatherman didn’t seem fairly positive. but he does, so i don’t!

    • Nef05 says:

      Guys, don’t forget the Florida Gun law, with the mandatory 25-life. Nowhere does it say that has to be concurrent with a murder or agg manslaughter conviction. JN could sentence it consecutively. After the no remorse interview of not regretting anything and God’s Plan, I could see JN going all the way there. Isn’t she, or didn’t she used to be a child advocate? That does not bode well for fogen.

      • Nef05 says:

        “Nowhere does it say that has to be concurrent with a murder or agg manslaughter conviction.”

        correction: conviction should be *sentence. The conviction is required. Concurrent sentences are not.

    • Malisha says:

      I think he will be convicted.
      Then I think the federal ivnestigation of SPD will close with a clean bill of health.
      Then I think there will be ten, twenty, thirty appeals.
      O’Mara and West will benefit in that their private law practices will take off like bats out of hell with big money clients.
      Fogen will try to be a martyr in the limelight but since his supporters don’t like feelings of failure, they will drop away steadily and ultimately Shellie will leave him more because she can’t take real pathos than for any other, more valid reason.
      And the whole FogenTribe will be screaming and wailing and blaming everyone else forever and their audience will be other failure skinheads like themselves.

  25. Dee says:

    I don’t know I think they are just trying to appease us with this trail. Because it is a lot of stuff that the prosecution left out, which could have helped this case. What about the lady who says that it was a little boy screaming. They did not even put her on the stand, but she was on TV witnessing to this. They also could have gotten someone who knew that blow flows of Zimmerman head injuries were not justified by him being on the bottom of this fight screaming for his life. Because the cuts on his head is bleeding toward his cheeks to a point, it even dripped into his mustache. Gravity is showing us right in front of our faces that Zimmerman was on top as he was bleeding, not on the bottom.

  26. HereslookingatYou says:

    If the killer thought he could withstand cross examination he would have had an immunity hearing.

  27. Thrace says:

    You think the GZ supporters who claim they would want George watching out for them, would also approve of this wanna be loon patroling their neighborhood? What’s going on in FL?

    ORLANDO, Fla. –
    Orlando police arrested an HOA officer after he allegedly pulled a gun on his neighbors in the “Hamptons at Metrowest” neighborhood.

    According to an arrest affidavit, Howard Fox, 47, approached a woman who was standing on a pier just before midnight on July Fourth, watching fireworks over Turkey Lake.

    The woman, Swapna Mandavia, said he raised what looked like a machine gun, pointed it at her and accused of her doing something illegal by being there after hours.

    Mandavia told police as she tried to leave, she met a man who said Fox also pulled a gun in front his two kids.


    • Judy75201 says:

      Wow. These HOA/neighborhood watch types are truly some creepy ass crackers (this quote is from a concerned neighbor about Fox’s behavior):

      “About two weeks ago, I started watching him on a regular basis because I’m out with my dog, my daughter walks our dog and he just looked creepy to me,” said Watke.”

    • Girlp says:

      They are bigots and are not concerned about themselves they expect him to target minorities esp AA’s, so they would be comfortable with him patroling their neighborhood until he decides to expand his victims to include them.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      His supporters probably don’t care because they feel like it does not and won’t affect them. It only affect those “others”.

    • Sleuth says:


      Florida is not the exception to these NHW groups and gated communities, they are everywhere unless you live in rural parts of the U.S. There are National NHW organizations throughout the United States.

      I guess you can say these are barriers designed by bigots and racists to keep out people who don’t look like them, or folks of any race who want to feel superior to others.

      IIRC, during the final rounds of jury selection, several people admitted they were members of an HOA and/or had NHW.

      When individually questioned about desiring armed NHW captains, or NHW at all, all of them said no. You could actually hear some of the pf’s laughing as BDLR asked them questions.

      Mr. Ken O’Brien (I think that’s his name) is the President of the HOA at RATL. He testified in court that he did not feel what the confessed murderer was doing in terms of NHW was even necessary.

      • Malisha says:

        Even a woman (with an Eastern European accent and bare feet) who was burglarized said she did not see the need for NW assistance like Fogen’s. She said her house was burglarized, the police took care of it “in ten minutes,” and she felt safe. She didn’t need Fogen’s protection.

    • Nef05 says:

      It’s contagious and spreading far and wide. A jerk here in metro Detroit tried to pull over a lady who blew through a stop side, with a flashlight. She went to a well lit area with a lot of people, where he told her he had been asked/recruited, by the local PD to look for speeders/drunk drivers over the holiday weekend. She was already on the phone with the cops, because of the flashlight thing.

      He left, before they got there. She told them what happened and the cops went to the spot where she blew through the stop sign and this idiot had gone back there. They picked him up and he tried to tell them he was a county sheriff who had just gotten transferred to their PD. Needless to say, they called the sheriff’s office and no one ever heard of him.

      He’s being held on driving on an expired license (but he’s pulling over other folks for driving violations, right…) while they wait for “impersonating an officer” charges to come through.

      They guys in your story had two guns, way more serious! But, the mentality of authoriteh and entitlement are the same. How long before someone else gets shot, by these cowboy mentality yahoos.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        There was an ex-cop from another location who retired to my old stomping grounds in a SW state. He kept himself busy standing on his street with a radar gun to clock people as they drove past and give them dirty looks. I was almost always right at speed limit or a bit fast, as this was a small rural town with lots of distance between homes and distances – everyone drove fast wherever and whenever it was safe to do so. I believe the local police department finally told him to cease and desist. I saw him out on the highway a few times deliberately going under speed limit and trying to block people from passing him legally, and because the entire town was a bedroom community and almost everyone commuted 20-25 miles to work, he pissed a lot of people off. I’m just glad he wasn’t running around with a gun, but who knows. Could have been.

        • Nef05 says:

          I just don’t understand why these people don’t have something better to do. Retired? Play golf, tennis, fix things, putter around the yard, help a neighbor with a home repair or car repair, if you have that skill, get a hobby, learn a craft – for pete’s sake.

          Not retired? Get a life! These people with no authority, who INSIST on imposing themselves into stranger’s lives, as if they have some right to do so, drive me nuts!

          Don’t regular folks have enough to worry about, just trying to make ends meet and keep their heads above water?

    • Jun says:

      More wanna be cops on power trips

      Let’s be honest, most people think NHW people are jokes and most do not feel they are even necessary

      You know who people call when in trouble? They call 911

      You know who the NHW people call? They call 911

      Even NHW people know they have a pointless and useless job LOL

      • Malisha says:

        I think they watch crime shows and cop shows on TV and begin to imagine themselves in the leading roles and go bonkers.

    • aussie says:

      The way they do NWH here (no guns in Australia) the idea is to OBSERVE IN ADVANCE. In other words, KNOW your neigbours, know who comes and goes late at night, know who never has lights on after 9 pm, that sort of thing. So that you can tell if something is out of the ordinary. Because THAT is suspicious. Many would call NWH first, to get confirmation on the strangeness. Many people are afraid to make their own decisions on what warrants a call.

      I’ve had people ask my second opinion on
      * whether the burning smell from an apartment warrants calling the fire brigade (” oh, been a coupla hours now, but getting stronger….”) [pot on stove boiled dry RED HOT about to fall onto rug]
      * should someone be told of a daily increasing bad smell [to me obviously a 5 days+ dead body: suicide note dated 7 days ago]
      * what to do about woman lowering bags off balcony of apartment belonging to a guy [call cops to apprehend burglar – she claimed to be his girlfriend but didn’t know his name nor that he’s a 60+ gay guy]
      * is it okay for light to come on and go off by itself in a storm? [switch filling up with water from leaky roof, drained out when rain eased off]
      * guy sleeping in car in driveway, let’s let him sleep it off [fingers nose and ears black from cyanosis, clearly OD, DOA] (me: “there’s a dead guy in a car in my driveway” cops: “what makes you think he’s dead” me: “even if he’s not you still need to take him away” cop: “does he need an ambulance?” me:”umm noooo, he’s DEAD remember?” cops: “ok then, I’ll send a car”. First cop on scene “he’s dead”. D’oh).

  28. Girlp says:

    I’ve been watching George Zimmerman’s behavior for a while, I’m not a therapist, Psychologist or a Psychoanalyst, however, I worked in an environment for 10 years with people who graduated with these degrees or with a sociology degree my mother and one of my brothers have sociology degree’s as well; also, unfortunately there are bi-polar and schizophrenic people in my family (genetics). I think George would be happy to take the stand as he has grandiose ideas (I believe a GOD complex) regarding himself. George sees himself as some sort of savior George is the only one that can prevent crime no one else. He knows and understands crime and how criminals should be treated better than those he rode along with at the SPD; he can spot these criminals easier than the SPD, they let them all get away. He sees all young AA males a potential criminals and believes they are about to commit or have committed some crime and need to be arrested, he sees anyone that crosses him as a criminal (his landlord, a caterer trying properly to collect their money). George is mentally ill, however, he does know right from wrong; George seems to think whatever he does is not wrong it’s his birthright to chase down criminals and all young AA are criminals. This worries me; if he is acquitted I believe it emboldens him, now he has the right to detain and shoot any young AA male for whatever reason is sitting in his tiny little one track brain. What bothers me even more is that O’Mara knows and understands this (not so sure about West). IMO George wants to take the stand to tell a couple of new tales I believe he would enjoy it, I watched his reaction to his Hannity interview, his standing up so he could be identified even though he was not asked to and his reaction to Jahvaris Fulton (which I find highly disturbing). I don’t believe he will take the stand because he can’t tolerate being cross examined…remember his bond hearing? So I don’t expect him to take the stand however I might get a big surprise in a few days.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      They will destroy the killer if he dares to take the stand…
      this one line alone tells you how smart he is not..
      I was not following him.
      I was just going the way he went..
      Ah that’s following ..Chris Serino.

      • Puck says:

        This taken with the NEN call in which he admits he was following, and his statement that night in which he admits he knew the dispatcher was asking him to not follow, exposes another lie.

      • Girlp says:

        They most certainly will, he has 3 stories of how Trayvon was supposed to have attacked him, none of them make sense, he say’s Trayvon mounted him (on his stomach) meaning Trayvons legs are covering his sides, that Trayvon somehow bangs his head over and over and over again on the sidewalk until he is about to pass out so he “shimmies” off the sidewalk which pushes Trayvon’s knees and legs further up and supposedly pushes his jacket up and somehow Trayvon sees his gun? Not possible, nor did he not know he had shot Trayvon (The first of his mutiple stories), later in the reenfakement he say’s he aimed and fired, look at his face when he say’s that notice he extended his arm, this is one time he told the truth, the second time he again said he aimed and fired while moving his left hand out of the way. So how is he confused, dizzy with a concussion and aiming taking the time to protect himself… he lied the only time he tells the truth is when he say’s he aimed and fired the expression on his face shows malice. I pray hard that he is convicted of M2, I know in reality this may not happen but it is hard to see it not happening. JFTM

      • Girlp says:

        He does attempt to manipulate.

      • Nef05 says:

        As well as thinking he was just going to waltz into Corey’s office and explain his way out of murder charges.

        Who does that?!?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Girlp — Interesting points. One concern this brings to the forefront for me is that there might be some last ditch attempt to get Fogen off — either just before conviction or immediately thereafter — with a mental illness claim.

      Somebody, anybody, please tell me that’s a nutzo fear and not possible under Florida law.

      (I remain irate that John Hinckley, who shot Jim Brady and President Reagan, is viewed as all better now and gets to go out moseying about on extended outings these days.)

      • Girlp says:

        It’s much harder to use mental illness today if the defendant knows right from wrong it’s not likley he will ge off, there have been some exceptions (Robert Durst) but it’s rare for someone to get off due to mental illness. Zimmerman is still quite sick even on is med’s if that is what is causing him to doze off in court. As a matter of fact I’m beginning to believe he may have stopped taking his meds or his body has adjusted to them he seems more aware and some of the side affects (such as his eyes going back in his head) have dimished quite at bit. If I’m right he is an extremely dangerous person on or off meds.

        • Sleuth says:


          I also noticed the he’s been more alert, and even moreso since Miss Rachell Jeantel’s testimony.

          During Ms. Fulton and her son’s testimony he was starring them down like a hawk, he was so fixated on them. The first thing that came to my mind was to quote you, “he is an extremely dangerous person on or off meds”.

          At that moment, I really believed that Ms. Fulton and Jahvaris safety was in jeopardy.

          Maybe they need to do him like the courts in Denver, Colorado are doing to James Holmes, chain his feet to the floor.

      • Tee says:

        He had his last ditch effort friday. He can’t claim mental illness now and even if he could he wouldnt meet the standards.

      • Malisha says:

        Hinckley was actually nuts. Fogen is a sane bigot. They won’t change the plea to NCR (not criminally responsible by reason of insanity) because they want to keep saying he didn’t DO IT, that he was forced to kill in self-defense.

      • aussie says:

        There is an insanity plea for when a person is mentally not fit to TAKE PART IN A TRIAL. You can’t be prosecuted it you are unable to defend yourself.

        There’s a different one, for when the person was not mentally capable of telling right from wrong at the time of the crime.

        I can’t remember the proper names of these.

        Anyway TOO LATE, he cheerfully told everyone what he did and how. Told the second interviewer (Serino) he expects justifiable homicide out of this……….going for self-defence from the first minute so knows the differences.

        That’s to say, he knows there are right and wrong activities. He justifies to himself that for HIM (special little him) the one he chose is RIGHT. He’s pretty much the only person to still believe that.

        Pathological liars believe everything they say is true; they’re in a little private planet of their own.

        • Nef05 says:

          @Aussie – Here’s a link to the article the Prof wrote, last year, regarding Breivik, the Norwegian guy who went on the huge spree, including a day camp with a bunch of kids. I link it because the Prof, also details the legal tests for insanity defense, here in the USA, that you referenced. Just in case you wanted to pick up the names.

          PS. For anyone interested, on the left column, under Insanity Defense, the Prof has several articles on the Insanity defense, posted with the Holmes and Loughner sprees, and subsequent arraignments, that are very interesting. I remembered them because I reread them recently, when the Holmes insanity plea came back in the news.

    • Puck says:

      I’m a sociologist and I agree with what you wrote. We have to remember that the stucco guys were the ones who apprehended the real burglar, and I reckon GZ just couldn’t bear that civilians (not police) other than him were able to catch one, so he was determined to single-handedly catch the next one.

      • Girlp says:

        I agree and he does see himself as law enforcement he carries that demenor today in the courtroom.

      • Sleuth says:


        I agree. Actually that’s the same thing a posted on the previous thread.

        One can only imagine how the confessed murderer must have felt when the HOA sent out props and congratulations to the Stucco Guys in their newsletter.

        What’s really about those burglars, Mr. O’Brien said he and the Stucco Guys had casual conversations with them on several occasions. Mr. O’Brien described the burglars as, “really nice guys”, or course prior to them actually attempting the thefts.

      • Malisha says:

        There is also a reason for the end of February being the time he had to pull his “change clothes in a phone booth and leap over tall buildings to save the RTL” stunt: he did not have the rent for March. He needed to hero his way out of having to pay rent in March.

        • IMBack says:

          If the Jury gives him a manslaughter conviction, can part of his post prison punishment be a lifetime ban from being on anybody’s neighborhood watch?

          • Malisha says:

            HA HA HA HA HA!! There should be a lifetime ban on him being in a neighborhood, PERIOD!

            The ONION did a story shortly after his name hit the press: headline was something like “NW Captain says he won’t let one bad day stop him.” In the article they said he explained that the neighborhood still needed him. Sure as weather, the next day Taaffe went on TV bemoaning that Fogen wasn’t patrolling any more because the neighborhood was so at risk!

  29. ay2z says:

    Enjoy. There is a message in this human and animal interraction that is beyond anyone who believes the gun and anger and pain, are the solution.

  30. Nef05 says:


    You know I’ve been a fan of yours from the beginning, and I’ve NEVER known a hint that you’ve given us (from your friends who shall not be mentioned) as not panning out.

    You’ve spoken many times about the phone calls/texts/emails, as a tour de force piece of evidence against fogen. As we know, they were authenticated via the verizon guy, but not explained. Nor, do I believe they’ve been released.

    Should they (perhaps) not be gone into, in detail, by the prosecution, any chance you can give us details of what they contained – or is it possible that the contents may be kept quiet, per the feds investigation of a civil rights violation, in that they may contain some written documentation of fogen’s racist mindset/intent?

    If the feds are holding it back – that’s cool, and more power to them in a civil rights investigation. But, if not, I’d REALLY like to know what was in those texts/emails that BDLR questioned fogen about, on the stand, in the first bond hearing, after that sorry ass piece of non-apology he gave the Martin/Fulton family. Any chance your “people” might be forthcoming with that info, after the state trial is done, and fogen is convicted?

    • kllypyn says:

      when i saw the picture of trayvon lying dead i was surprised at how wide his mouth was open. After listening to the ME i know why he was trying to breath when he died.but unfortunately he couldn’t because his lungs were longer working. and it looks like there’ss a tear at the corner of his left eye.

      • HereslookingatYou says:

        Not mention the killers full weight on his back.

      • Trained Observer says:

        If we are screaming bloody murder out of fear for our lives, wouldn’t our mouths be wide open?

        Trayvon’s death shriek was cut off by the bullet, yet brain function failed to send a message to close the jaws so he’d look peaceful and composed for photography.

        • HereslookingatYou says:

          Hell Yeah Observer Excellent POINT

        • kllypyn says:


          • aussie says:

            The eyes stay open, kllypyn, because that is the “normal”position and we have to blink on purpose to close them. Normal position for the mouth is closed. But it’s not just one muscle closing the mouth, its a whole bunch of them going in various directions, and all of them relax, so there should not be any change.

            Same with limbs: arms and legs have muscles on both sides of the bone, and bending the limb depends on which one is contracted. If someone falls down dead with an arm or leg bent, that’s how it stays, because the opposing muscles relax, too. At this stage an outsider can still move the limbs about a bit (and close the eyes, the first thing to do, traditionally).

            Then rigor mortis sets in and everything gets frozen in that position, until that, too, passes and everything goes limp (but still in the same position). Sorry I don’t know off hand how many hours these stages are.

            Nobody’s angry with you. If you don’t ask, you never learn.

      • Nef05 says:

        I haven’t seen that pic, and I’m pretty sure I don’t want to. I already have the screams haunting me. I did, however, read the description of the pic, back when Tracy Martin described it after Serino gave it to him to ID Trayvon. The description included the open mouth, so I just thought that was normal (if anything about this case can be considered “normal”), since we knew the bullet caught him in mid-scream. I’d have been more surprised if his mouth wasn’t open.

      • IMBack says:

        CPR. Officer Ramondo did CPR. Thats why it was open.

      • KittySP says:

        Don’t forget the officer then attempted CPR… that could be the reason that his mouth is left wide open.

    • Puck says:

      I like racer, but he hasn’t been posting much since the rather underwhelming GZ/TM phone records were released last week. I recall hints of a series of calls to Tim Smith, Osterman, Bill Lee, and others after the shooting, but the only number he called was the SPD general number, which also connects to NEN. So… if there’s something in the texts, which I hope there is, that remains to be seen. I don’t know if the phone records as they are (just times and numbers of outgoing/incoming calls and texts) having been introduced allows for the use of the *contents* of the texts.

      • ks says:

        I think racer was in a car accident that he’s recovering from so that may be why he’s not posting much.

        • Puck says:

          Oh no. Well, I wasn’t accusing him of laying low, just that I’ve been asking if he could tell us more in light of the records we now have, and haven’t heard back from him on this.

          • ks says:

            No problem. I thought that’s what you meant. Anyway, I think his accident wasn’t too bad so he should be okay.

          • Puck says:

            Yeah, I re-read it, and it was badly phrased. Did you mean you did or didn’t think I was challenging him?

        • Nef05 says:

          I didn’t know that. I certainly wish him a speedy recovery and return to the front lines!

          • HereslookingatYou says:

            Ditto ..
            I followed Racer way back when under a different ID..he’s all that! I hope all is well

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      Nef05, I remember BDLR asking the killer about those texts..
      Gotta see them.

      • Nef05 says:

        Yep. There was a reason that the very first cross examination opportunity BDLR got, with everything else he “could” have asked, he went straight to those messages.

        There’s something there

        • Puck says:


          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. Now, sir, you had a phone at some point and you agreed to turn over that phone to the police so they could make a copy of what was in there, right?

          ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in that phone did you receive or send text messages sir.

          ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to a reverend?

          O’MARA: Objection, your honor. Outside the scope.

          JUDGE LESTER: Sustained.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to Mr. Martin, the father of the victim?

          JUDGE LESTER: Sustained. You’re getting a little bit far away.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize your honor. My question is he was asked in terms of apology to the family and I’d like to be able to address that if I could.

          JUDGE LESTER: I think you can classify that whether or not he asked the apology. I don’t want to get into other areas.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

          JUDGE LESTER: Thank you.

          UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, Mr. Zimmerman, do you recall sending a message to someone, an e-mail, about referring to the victim’s father?

          ZIMMERMAN: No, sir. I don’t.

        • Puck says:

          Upon further investigation, it appears they only requested and got GZ’s cell records that include contents of the texts for the period from March 7 to 22, 2012. For February 20 to 28 they have only “cell phone records.”

          Click to access cellphonerecordsevid.pdf

          (I know, I had to go through TalkLeft, but it was via Google, so…)

          • Nef05 says:

            You are correct. Link below to state’s Redacted Discovery Exhibit (item on pg.7), so you don’t have to visit TalkLeft again, unless you choose to. 🙂 ). What I’m thinking is, that since it did not appear fogen would be “arrested”, and indeed he indicated he thought it would all “blow over”. He may have bragged, or in some other way sent out some, shall we say “interesting”, texts. He did, after all, not even have enough common sense not to make a “hoodie” joke on a recorded phone call, not to mention the whole “indigence” and passport code that also came out even after he’d been arrested. (IMO) There was a specific reason BDLR went there at the first chance he got to cross examine fogen. That’s just a personal opinion, though.

            Sharpest tool in the shed, he ain’t.

            Click to access CJC3rdFlCScan20120515084012.pdf

  31. ay2z says:

    George Zimmerman told a K9 officer who had shot someone and killed that person in line of duty, that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone?

    That is in the state’s discovery interviews somewhere.

  32. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin had a lot of respect for women and his tattoos and treatment of Rachel demonstrate that. He was the only one that befriended Rachel and did not make fun of her that tells me that he was a caring person. A real thug does not respect women.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Good Morning, Granny,
      We’ve see that since the beginning of the trial, haven’t we? From the defense.
      And, of course…we’ve seen that in our lives, for a long time.
      This trial has reminded me that some days we’re still in the cave.

  33. ay2z says:

    LLMPapa, I have a question for you, or anyone else who has a link or video of Gladys Z in her early TV interviews because they seem to have disappeared from easy view on youtube.

    I don’t ever remember hearing the interview portion where Gladyz Z asserts that she hears the 911 call with the screams and calls for help, and that her opinion is that this is her son.

    Junior said it, Sr. Z, said it, Ostermans claimed they interpreted wife Shellie’s crying as that she believed it was her husband also, now we have heard the uncle ‘George’ say it on the stand, and finally we have heard Gladys assert the same, on the stand.

    BUT, did we EVER heard Gladyz say to the media, to the public ‘masses’, on Piers or MSNBC or wherever, from the shadows of disguise, her opinion on who was screaming?

    I don’t remember that she did, and am sure that she did not say that at all, in the versions available on the web. I remember that I did not hear the mother claim that it was her son, I remember the focus about ‘racism’, but not about the audio of the 911 background screams.

    (Why are those interviews gone from sight now? Did someone change the keywords so they don’t appear easily or have they been pulled by supporters who now realize the problem?)

    Anyone have a clip?

  34. HereslookingatYou says:

    Nothing mattered more in the JA case then the fact she lied ..lied she was toast and good people were appalled at her lies..but some of those same good people ..suddenly just weren’t sure when the obvious lies the killer told started rollin out….so either cred matters or not but I guess to some skin color trumps …and it’s just not so important depending on the victim

    • Tee says:

      That’s the same thing I had been saying. I watch the JA trial and people was appalled by what she did, she was a liar and a murderer. Trayvon will never get the same respect that TA was afforded, it doesn’t matter that this was a kid a child, all some people see is color.

      • HereslookingatYou says:

        it just makes me sick and to see folks like those on HLN etc, who proclaim to be folks of integrity actually try and make like there is some truthfulness in what the liar says is shameful..maybe I will start to be like so many prospective jurors who kept say ..who me ? no I don’t watch the news.

        • HereslookingatYou says:

          kept saying

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I agree. They do not take the time to study and research what they are talking about. I doubt that until this actual trial that they had never read or heard gz’s statements.

          These media types are intellectual lightweights.

          Maybe they should they should write at the level that they think and behave:

          “There is a trial. This trial is in Florida. This trial is in Sanford, Florida. It is big. It is a big trial……..”

  35. Nef05 says:

    Great holiday weekend to all Americans, and happy weekend to all the regular posters and visitors, from around the world. Got a lot of catching up to do. Left for the family cottage, yesterday, after court and didn’t get a chance to read or post. Had to send the guys out for a wireless router since we’re all trying to get online and the phone line DSL still is connected by one wire plug to laptop. Being a matriarch of my generation only gets me so far with hogging the line. 🙂

    I sincerely hope none of you have mistaken that my concern about the prosecution’s presentation is in any way a belief that fogen should walk. It’s not. On the contrary, it is a fear (almost a terror, really) that the jury won’t see what we do and allow this case to become a precedent permitting open season on black males. As a black woman, the very concept is terrifying to me. As a mother, whose only child is a black son, the idea is excruciating. I just wanted to make that clear.

    Still feeling some kindof way about the lack of summary witness, but you guys, the prof, and my male family members (ret. Lt. Sheriff, defense lawyer and a judge) have gone a looooong way in alleviating my concerns.

    I believe Mantei’s presentation/response to the motion of acquittal was EXCELLENT. I only wish the jury had been able to hear it. The prosecution knew the motion of acquittal was coming, so I think they may have split the three major addresses to one apiece. Opening for Guy, Response to acquittal motion for Mantei, and closing for BDLR.

    I haven’t seen BDLR in an address, other than responding to motions in court hearings and on paper, but I know he is excellent. I do think, however, Mr. Mantei’s style – complete with powerpoint, would be the knockout blow. Graphs, charts, maps, statistic tables and such are very good as visual aids for a “lecture” which is what I consider the closing (a review before the final exam, so to speak); but nothing is as easy to take notes from and comprehend, like a well presented powerpoint – in my humble opinion.

    Thoughts on (the utter lack of) defense to follow.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      I Love Mr, Mantei’s style I hope he does the closing.

      • ay2z says:

        He’s an excellent, clear and easy to listen to, when he aruges. So prepared.

        But there might be a good reason that John Guy will return, because the jury has heard his passion and points in the opening, and hearing him again will tie that together for the jury so much better than anyone else now bringing the close.

        But then Mr. Mantai is excellent, and can argue the reminder of what John Guy told them. Just won’t be in John Guy’s voice that will be able to trigger the juror’s memory best.

        Will be interesting to see. Maybe Bernie will bring it.

        • ay2z says:

          Consistency and connectivity.

        • HereslookingatYou says:

          Now there you go making excellent points for anyone one of them ..and you would be correct!

          • Nef05 says:

            I agree. All three are excellent and there’s a reason Corey put them together on her “A team”. They all have strengths, and who would be best is a really hard call, since they all bring something different to the table.

            It’s a good thing when your team is so good, you have the happy option of being able to choose any one of them, for what is arguably, the most important address to the jury and know they can get the job done. Corey must be pleased.

          • ay2z says:

            Yes!! Agree with that! The solid triangle of talent.

    • Unabogie says:

      Just remembering the OJ trial, and it’s permissible that each of them could handle a portion of the closing. BDLR starts with an introduction, Mantai with a recitation of the evidence, and Guy with the emotional conclusion.

  36. Deborah Moore says:

    People all o’r the world,
    Join hands,
    Get on the Law Blog. Law Blog.
    (to the tune of Love Train.)

  37. Abraham Jones says:

    O.K., perhaps someone can help me out here. In looking at the trial for the last week like everyone else, I’ve come to the conclusion that George Zimmerman is either a non-caring control freak, a sociopath, or both; with most of that leaning heavily towards him having dissocial personality disorder. I mean, just his demeanor and body language during the trial so far has deeply offended me. It’s obvious that this guy just doesn’t care that he killed a kid that had just turned 17 yrs old three weeks prior. What’s even more disheartening is the fact that there are millions of people in this country alone that are defending this clown! The guy laughed out loud in court when his ex-professor stated, “no, I wouldn’t recommend that you do that,” when the professor was asked by the defense if someone should wait until they’re about to be killed or caused grave harm. I mean, who does that? That, to me, showed that this guy has no remorse or care in the world for Trayvon or his family. Also, is it just me or does this guy act like he knows something that we don’t know? It’s almost as if he knows that the fix is in and that he wont be found guilty by this jury pool. Considering the fact that, in my opinion, so many people have tried to cover up for this guy. Ranging from the SPD who didn’t properly handle this case, to the district attorney’s office, right down to his daddy calling “shot gun?” This fool, Zimmerman, feels that he is Mr. Untouchable. Here’s a guy who’s got the connections in law enforcement. He’s got a daddy that use to be a judge, etc. He knows how the system works and has been using it to his advantage long before the unfortunate events of that night occurred, when he shot and killed Trayvon. He’s been playing everyone stupid up until now. Or, I should say, he’s been playing his supporters stupid up until now. With that, that’s the part that’s really bothering me. Why is it that so many people are still behind this guy when it’s totally obvious that this idiot killed this child out of malice and who has lied at every turn and chance he’s had. I mean, he’s been caught in blatant, flat out, lies and his supporters don’t seem to care about it. I don’t know about everyone else here, but to me, that’s scary as hell to think that someone like this can do what they want, lie about it, get caught in a lie, but still be hailed as a hero!

    • bettykath says:

      Abraham, You know about corruption, right? Of course you do. Once there is step one in a cover-up b/c daddy is “connected”, other steps follow. Pretty soon, so many people are involved, that it’s hard for anyone who would otherwise be honest, also gets compromised (thinking Serino and Singleton who probably would have done the right job.).

      However, another way to explain fogen’s attitude is that he gets continuous positive feedback by certain posters on the treehouse. I doubt that he comes here, but if he does, he doesn’t believe anything we say. He just goes back to the treehouse where he can read more of the bs from people who think he’s a hero. Combine this with his natural psychopathic tendencies and there we are. Let’s hope the jury sees the lies (I’m sure the prosecution will be pointing them out) and realized that nothing this pos says is to be believed.

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      On the REAL…the Killer has rid the world of one more black…
      and they know Trayvon was not a thug..wouldn’t matter if he was the POTUS
      and please do not be fooled..some are just ignorant inbreeds raised like that… some are newscasters..some are lawyers..dr’s…judges but those just can’t come out and say it like the blaitant racists…so they pretend they don’t see the lies or they make them ok…

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        I cosign. Nevertheless, most people who believe in inequality can read between the lines and know by their comments that they are racist, especially black people who lived during Jim Crow. They’re not fooling anyone. I had to learn how to spot a racist in order to survive.

    • Nef05 says:

      Regarding your suggestion of antisocial personality disorder – dissocial type (ICD-10 F60.2). You’ll find many of us in agreement. It just seems to fit too well. Of course, none of us can say for sure, having never personally interviewed him or reviewed any clinical assessment data. Nevertheless, his actions and his reactions speak very loudly.

      There is another listing, close, but not exact here in the State’s, in the DSM-IV-TR (haven’t gotten my copy of the DSM-V, yet.) I’m posting the symptoms for your review. It’s a wiki link, nevertheless the symptoms come from the DSM-IV-TR, which is definitive. Since I can’t put two links in one post, for moderation purposes, I will follow with a very well laid out case in an essay, from a guest author on a sister site “Doth Protest”. It is outstandingly well written, and definitely worth the read for anyoneinterested in seeing how various symptoms are specifically connected to fogen’s actions.

      Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
      Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]
      Takes advantage of others to reach own goals
      Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
      Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
      Envies others and believes others envy him/her
      Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
      Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
      Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
      Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic
      Per the Mayo Clinic, narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by dramatic, emotional behavior, which is in the same category as antisocial and borderline personality disorders[7].
      Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
      Believing that you’re better than others
      Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
      Exaggerating your achievements or talents
      Expecting constant praise and admiration
      Believing that you’re special and acting accordingly
      Failing to recognize other people’s emotions and feelings
      Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
      Taking advantage of others
      Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
      Being jealous of others
      Believing that others are jealous of you
      Trouble keeping healthy relationships
      Setting unrealistic goals
      Being easily hurt and rejected
      Having a fragile self-esteem
      Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

      • Girlp says:

        Fits George well

      • Abraham Jones says:


        Thanks for the link. That was some excellent reading. After reading it, I’m totally convinced that George Zimmerman is definitely the poster boy for narcissistic personality disorder. God help us!! If this man is no found guilty I can only imagine what will happen if he’s allowed to roam free!

    • Nef05 says:

      An excerpt from the essay, on the most excellent site “Dothprotesttoomuch”, by the guest blogger, Winston Walker:

      On his website, Dr. Sam Vaknin distinguishes narcissists from normal personalities this way:

      “In healthy people, Ego functions are generated from the inside, from the Ego. In narcissists, the Ego is dormant, comatose. The narcissist needs the input of the outside world to perform the basic Ego functions (e.g., “recognition” of the world, setting boundaries, differentiation, self-esteem and regulation of a sense of self-worth).”

      He also explains that:

      “The narcissist actively solicits Narcissistic Supply –adulation, compliments, admiration, subservience, attention, being feared- from others in order to sustain his fragile and dysfunctional Ego.”

      I hope the HOA President’s answers are further expounded on in close. It is my opinion,mentioned when he testified, that it was notable that fogen never followed anyone, until the stucco guys did, caught the bad guy, and the HOA President sent out a email blast praising them to the neighborhood. That this happened only three weeks prior to the murder, and that Trayvon was the first “suspect” to appear on fogen’s radar is no coincidence in my opinion.

      It all points to the break-ins being an excuse to implement excessive measures and the Neighborhood Watch being a prop that Zimmerman used to get positive feedback from people like the woman who was home alone with her child during a burglary.Being the one-man Neighborhood Watch detail guaranteed George that he’d get all the credit for any criminals caught. He got the recognition of being the “go-to” guy when something bad happened in the neighborhood. The residents he didn’t particularly respect weren’t comfortable with him to the point where one African American man took to driving downtown for his exercising needs. What more could Zimmerman have possibly wanted?

      The author also discusses fogen “my authoriteh” issues, as well. All in all, one of the best psychoanalytic articles on fogen I’ve read.

      • aussie says:

        “… “recognition” of the world, setting boundaries, differentiation, self-esteem and regulation of a sense of self-worth)…”

        this initially has to be provided by the parents, until the child’s ego eventually internalises them. That is what bringing up children is all about (ok feeding them sometimes helps, too, but is not the most important, substitutes can do that).

        GZ’s emotional age is about 4 years old. Mummy Mummy look at ME!!!! One parent abnormally harsh, one parent distant but permissive and “saving” him against the other.

        If one punishes no matter what he does, one saves and helps no matter what he does? then how does that teach him his actions have consequences?

        This trial is the first time he’s ever found that out. He’s still grinning because he hasn’t quite realised it yet.

        Ultimately the way he is was not his fault, but that is no excuse for murdering someone. Plenty of other people with truly horrid and horrifying childhoods, manage quite easily to avoid killing anybody.

        • Nef05 says:

          I agree. I thought at the time of the testimony I mentioned that fogen’s possible attachment issues (seeking approval) stemmed from the lack of such in his childhood, particulary his mom who would have been the authoritarian parent. Clearly, the situation with his cousin shows he had no concept of boundaries.

          One parent abnormally harsh, one parent distant but permissive and “saving” him against the other.

          If one punishes no matter what he does, one saves and helps no matter what he does? then how does that teach him his actions have consequences?

          This model (authoritarian/permissive) has been the subject of much study. There are many peer reviewed published works on the subject. In essence, you’ve nailed it, re: learning consequences in a manner that informs a developing psyche how to take the concept, understand it’s reasoning, internalize it,. and apply it to life circumstances going forward. Getting off the hook for his ongoing, escalating behavior by the permissive parent only reinforced the lack of it.

          According to the cited study by the author (above) fogen’s ego functions may be dormant. No one can tell from afar, but his actions (financial obligations ignored all around even to his own detriment, the cousin, rumors from his “bouncer” days, his road rage, kicking a dog, turning off mom’s electricity, etc), one or two of these might be frustration. Three or four might be a bad temper, but all taken together “seem” like a lack of impulse control resulting from a dormant ego, which doesn’t seem to pop up and say “hey, dude – this is a bad idea”.

          This is just my opinion of course, but I would LOVE to see a case study done on him.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Some of the nicer supporters have themselves convinced that Fogen’s just an all-around good guy who got thugged and they think all the evidence supports Fogen’s story. How they can not see through the ruse is beyond me. Some of the others are not much different that Fogen – some are fearful racists or ardent 2nd Amendment supporters that have their own fantasies of capping people if they feel threatened.

  38. Deborah Moore says:

    Thanks to Operacarla at top for “Leatherhead Global Villiage for Justice.
    And, I’m proud to be called a Leatherhead….(singing)

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i have always thought of us as ‘leatherman and the suedes’ but fred says there is band with the same name. i toy with the idea of ‘leatherman and the per-sueders’ though 😉

  39. Jasmine says:

    I have been reading here for about 3 weeks and I think this is a great site. So having said that there is one thing that has been bothering me since yesterday. Smith was on the site about 1 minute after the shot. Why, after knowing there was a shooting and the person who did the shooting was still up walking around, would he come onto the scene with his gun still in his holster? Any other time the person with the gun would be suspect so it goes without saying that he Had to have known he was safe with the shooter still roaming around. Does anyone else think along those same lines?

    • Judy75201 says:

      Good question. I thought it odd as well.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I do, Jasmine.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Officer Smith doesn’t arrive for a full 3 minutes after the gunshot. Use my timeline instead.

        During those three minutes gz gets up and walks north to the T and arrives there just as Jon Manalo comes around the corner and meets him. They talk and Manalo has gz stoop while on the phone, still with his gun in his hand, and takes the picture of the back of his head.

        Manalo then walks south to get a picture of the kid’s body, gz probably dropped the small lit flashlight then, because Jon says he didn’t see it then. Then gz heads back south to the body and then Officer Smith arrives. Upon seeing Officer Smith, gz says he then holstered his gun.

        • Jasmine says:

          The other timeline has him arriving at 7:17:11 but not taking custody of Fogen till 7:19. But no matter the time he didn’t consider himself to be in danger and that is what bothers me the most. What officer does that?

    • bettykath says:

      Fogen made a phone call to the nen number right after killing Trayvon. Since no recording of the call has been revealed, it has been suggested that fogen knew the extension of Timothy Smith. “hey, bro, I just shot a suspect. I’m waiting here for you.”

      • aussie says:

        Except NOT POSSIBLE unless the landline extension automatically forwards to a mobile somehow. At the recorded time of that call, Smith was already at the gate or just about (allowing for clock differences). Plus I am sure cops don’t have individual private extensions, that are theirs only.

        On the other hand, Smith was already en route because of the NEN call, so he’d know who was involved. And have a pretty good idea the victim would NOT be the guy he knows. Plus see all kinds of neigbours standing around not scared, as soon as he rounded the corner.

      • Jasmine says:

        I wonder if someone else called him. I mean who comes onto the scene of a shooting and isn’t afraid when they know….KNOW…. that the shooter is at large. No one with any common sense does that. And what about the neighbors coming out after the shot. Esp. John and most likely Jeremy….when you hear a sound like a gun shot you don’t go investigate. You hide right??

  40. Stormwatch says:

    The board is on fire today. Some really good stuff. Once again, I have learned a couple things. I can now see why Serino was put back in uniform on the overnight shift and why he and Singleton have concerns. When Zimmerman goes down, it may be just the beginning. But I think Wolfinger and Jim Carter are into it up to their necks. I think the state has done a good job so far. But I was a little disappointed that no FDLE detective was called and no additional cellphone info to help sort it all out.I am praying for a really strong closing.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      saving an FDLE investigator for the state’s rebuttal case makes all the sense in the world — it would be the last evidence the jury hears before deliberations. remember that the jury will be reminded yet again before closing arguments that attorney statements are not evidence and should not be considered as such.

  41. YQ says:

    Another question that’s starting to float around: why didn’t Fogen continue to yell out for help after he shot the kid? Note-he didn’t realize he shot him at first and then proceeded to “restrain” the kid by pulling his arms out (lied), and putting 207 lbs of weight/pressure on the injured Trayvon.

    Maaan, In order for him to justify killing the kid, he should come clean and testify. I want to hear it from him where it matters the most-in a court of law.

  42. mgs710 says:

    Thanks, I posted that on the site. It looks like there are a few defense lawyers on there taking up GZ’s cause. Although they claim that they’re act as impartial jurors.

  43. PYorck says:

    Btw. did Judge Nelson ever rule on GZ’s character evidence? If she did, then I missed it.

  44. ay2z says:

    Prof said that now GZ has to make the decision whether to take the stand or not by Monday morning.

    Legal rights rights considerations aside, I don’t think there has ever been a scintilla of doubt, as to whether this defendant will WANT to take the spotlight once again..

    We thought the defendant was running the show when HE had somehow committed to Hannity and poor O’Mara got caught having to be there because they couldn’t get out of it. No– O’Mara said in his response to rebuttal on the motion to dismiss yesterday, “WE”, about the Hannity interview decisions, and we saw him on camera both from a green screen background insert photo, and apparently with his client in other parts. (all fake background, normal for the entertainment/media industry).

    And we know O’Mara and his client, hyped the Barbara Walters interview potential, then got slammed down by this mere ‘woman’ reporter whom they thought they could manipulate and get on air on one of the biggest live morning talk shows. (Hannity covered the primetime evening, and ‘The View’ would cover the big daytime audience factor).

    (that asking for hotel rooms was a ploy. O’Mara was around when the ABC scandal of payments hit the fan in the Anthony case, he knew full well, that ABC wouldn’t be putting his client up in the Ritz luxury and shrimp puffs.

    In the end, they got Barbara Walters to minimally respond to them ‘live’ on a call in by O’Mara. In that way, she was royally had, but not much she could do about it, but what she did.)

    This reaction, which I saw live and hope the jurors did too, as the lights came back on, whows teh glee that this admitted killer has on his face. It was like he just snapped shut, his trap for the state to use his interview before the jury.

    Pure delight in pulling this one off —> (Xena, thanks again for capturing the moment he reveals his true self to the world)

    • YQ says:

      He seems like a fame-hooker.

      • Malisha says:

        I do not see him testifying. Remember, he asked for a voice-stress test and that was probably on the advice of Osterman who probably knew Erwin. Fogen does not like to be CHALLENGED. He likes to speak with people who will NOT challenge him. Challenging him gets him REALLY MAD. He will not want to be cross-examined. Remember O’Mara offering his testimony to Judge Lester on condition of NO CROSS EXAMINATION? I do not see Fogen getting up on the stand and speaking if he cannot be protected from x-exam.

        Remember what he said to Singleton: YOU never had to shoot anybody because THEY would never question YOUR AUTHORITY. To Fogen, questioning his authority is a no-no. He will not get on the stand and submit.

        Rachel Jeantel had guts.
        Fogen has no balls.
        I predict we will not hear his testimony.

        • Trained Observer says:

          @Malisha — “Fogen has no balls”

          Are you predicting an orchidectomy rendered by fellow inmates within the halls of ivy that Fogen will soon call home?

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I agree. I don’t think Fogen wants to testify because of all the reasons you state above, and I don’t think he thinks he needs to, because he thinks like his supporters who still claim the jury will set him free because the state has no case. If he should surprise me and testify, I have a feeling he’ll do it on the advice of his legal team.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I disagree that Barbara Walters was royally had while on air with the View. Actually she had Fogen for breakfast by declining to give him phone exposure, suggesting some other time — maybe. And it was clear she meant when hell freezes over.

      That was after Fogen stiffed Walters on a pre-arranged interview after she brought a camera crew to Florida. Fresh from his Hannity victory lap, Fogen tried to hit her up for a month’s worth of fancy lodging, security and other amenities. She and her packed up fast, leaving Fogen’s jaw hanging open. Neither Fogen nor MOM thought she’d give up a crack at a one-on-one with Fogen, which she readily did. And, you’ll remember, nobody else rushed in to replace her.

      • blushedbrown says:


        100% Correct.

        http ://

        http ://

        http ://

    • Tee says:

      Creepy as hell!

  45. mgs710 says:

    I think GZ probably provoked TM. Then TM popped him in the nose. GZ drew his gun . TM tackled GZ because he saw the gun–hence the the head would. Then TM was struggling for his life calling for help while he tried to stop GZ from using his weapon.

    • ay2z says:

      Probably provoked?

      Provoked how and when did the ‘provokation’ start?

      Those are the questions, and hopefully this jury can put themselves in the place of a young, legal ‘child’, who was targeting for following, followed in a vehicle on two streets, by an older male he did not recognize.

      Trayvon had every reason for concern and caution for his own safety and for that of the young 12 year old that he was leading this stranger to.

      Conisider how a woman (any age, any size, any physical ability) would react in caution and concern, and the need to proactively ‘think ahead’.

      Trayvon reacted in the best way he could BEFORE his tracker ever got close to him, and that was to RUN.

      Quote from NEN call: “Oh shit he’s running.” (gets out of car) “He ran.” (after he says he followed when out of the car)

      And on the written statement to police…. quote: “He fled to [a back area of the complex].

      Question to consider is WHY would you follow the path of someone at the point you have decided where you know the
      ‘suspects, assholes, f’n coons’ go? Twice we know GZ documented where Trayvon was headed baed on his past calls about young black males. ‘They always get away, they use the back entrance, and that’s exactly where he knew ‘this guy who looks like he’s up to no good’ was going,

      Now we learn that student GZ wrote that he wanted to go after fugitives, he wanted to be a ‘prosecutor’, he also wanted to be ‘a judge’.

      Not a leap that the best way to stop Trayvon that night, was to cut him off before he got to the back gate to get away and that was part of the missing minutes in the timeline.

      That makes pure and simple common sense for anyone wanting to cut off someone ‘at the pass’.

      Looking forward to the state’s closing to wrap this up.

    • crazy1946 says:

      It has been suggested TM hit the Fogdoit in the nose, however there is no injury to TM’s hands to indicate that! It is a known fact that the weapon that was used has an extreme amount of back force and if it was used with out proper handling would and could have struck the Fogdoit in the face (nose) and done the damage claimed along with the small wounds on the tip of his nose being caused by the rear sight on the weapon.. I don’t think TM did much more that push and attempt to escape from the Fogdoit, the evidence to support a fight (offensive wounds on hands) is just not found on TM…..

  46. mgs710 says:

    He was screaming for help because he knew GZ had a gun in his hand and he was struggling with the larger man so he wouldn’t shoot him. I truly believe that’s how it happened.

    • Dee says:

      I differently agree with you. I also believe that Zimmerman came up to T with the gun already in his hand. He already told the dispatcher that he was up to nothing but no good. So why would Zimmerman even think about following him without his fire arm exposed. Besides that his light wasn’t working, remember he is a wanta be cop. He knows that they are upholstered just as Zimmerman was.

  47. tharealkeisha says:

    Hi family. I was crying laughing yesterday when fogen was crying. As he looked at his mom, he knew he would forever need her because even a not guilty he would forever be in debt to the Martin’s and not have “a good life”

  48. Dee says:

    Zimmerman whole family is in law enforcement. That’s why he is a ”wanta be cop.” who decided that night to take the law in his own hands. He was ready to show all of his police friends to want to show the rest of the cops. That he could be just like them, if he could have gotten it.

  49. Tee says:

    Professor could you think of any reason the
    ME didn’t speak of the trajectory of the shot.

    • Dee says:

      Exactly, I would like to know why they didn’t attempt to prove that the blood flow on Zimmerman’s head was showing that he was holding his head down while his head was bleeding, If he was claiming to be on the bottom. The blood would have pooled in the back of his head. Gravity does lie, even though he differently is.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I think you’re right; how can blood flow back in the nose even as it flows forward from the head? O’Mara? Can you explain?

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          If your head is tilted back or you are flat on your back it will run down your throat, it isn’t really noticeable unless you swallow a clot. I had lots of nose bleeds as a kid.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it has been entered into evidence – i have no doubt the significance will be discussed throughout cross exam, rebuttal and closing.

  50. MDH says:

    One would think that if we lived in a USA that had a rational, objective media, then this would be the mother of all lies. The first thing I did when I read that GZ statement was to yell loud and then place my hand over my mouth and nose. The sharp change in pitch and amplitude is unmistakable. One would also think that the media would do a demonstration under the guise of being fair and balanced.

    No, not in the USA.

    Instead we get a chic {HSN} in a position more akin to porn doing the slap.

    Did they not read the testimony?

    IMO, both wounds were late stage as or when GZ returned to upright position.

    Gravity, unlike our media, does not lie.

  51. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Orlando FL: Casey Anthony’s father was a former police officer. Casey got off.

    Nearby Sanford FL. Fogen’s family & friends are in LE. Hopefully George doesn’t get a free pass due to family & friends being in LE.

  52. smokeegyrl says:

    No matter what the Defense brings, says, or does… No matter what the State brings, says, or does… There still for me is a higher power that is “setting the stage” as the Defense likes to say all the time… the one thing we all know already is “Trayvon Benjamin Martin” is moved on from this earth, Heaven or where ever you believe his soul has gone. Bottom line “Justice” is being served as Fogen awaits his demise of whether he is found guilty or found guilty because no matter what… he will never walk out of that court a “free man”. He already admitted to killing this young teenager, his shame covers his soul within his soul…

    Fogen sits back in his chair head thrown back, chin up, criss crossing his arms as a proud MS13 would do nodding with a cold ice stare and smirky smile. You can witness it yesterday as most did viewing it on right there in the court room who has front row seats and those viewing on the other side of a screen of one possessed by a demon snarled at Jahvaris as he walked back to his chair and out of the courtroom couldn’t take his eyes off of him as some journalist noticed. He is living and breathing in pure hell in that court room with Satan calling all the shots. (okay back to reality or is that reality?)

    • crazy1946 says:

      smokeegyrl, “MS13” that statement took my thoughts back to his “My Space Page” where he expressed his contempt (hatred) of Mexicans and how he and his co-criminal’s committed crimes of hate against them… He should be very popular in prison especially amongst the Mexicans who he claimed to hate so much….

  53. mgs710 says:

    I posted the wrong dated. Here’s the Miami Herald article where you can get the Feb 27, 2012 interview.

    • mgs710 says:

      check out right around 6:50

    • mataharley says:

      mgs710, I notice your linked video is only 11 minutes long. If you, or others, have not watched the entire 71 minute CVSA interview, you should. It is the most detailed and thorough interview, IMHO. Here is the complete version on YouTube.

      I have notes/times on this interview from last year. I used a downloaded version, but the YouTube’s should be close in my below times.

      The first 15 minutes includes a casual chat with Doris Singleton while awaiting the CVSA tester. At that time he mentions his psychologist (4’40” approx in). Says his psych is going to “hit him the hardest” and, after long pauses, mutters what to tell him. It was the first time I knew he was already under psychiatric care.

      The tester asks him to go thru his story… which GZ does for for approx 15 minutes, ending about 37′ in to the video. It is then followed by an equally detailed Q&A – all of which precedes the joke of a VSA test. If you’ll notice, your linked video is only 11 minutes long.

      My largest takeaways are this:

      At 42’55”, after GZ is telling him about shooting with TM mounted, the CVSA officer asks how me managed to shoot from that position. If you’ll watch GZ’s physical demonstration, it’s clear that he is either pushing, or grabbing TM’s shirts with his left hand… and he mentions that he needs to extend his arm (muzzle against shirts…) to get past his own hand (gripping or pulling?) which is in the way.

      The second largest take away is that whenever GZ says he was “reaching for my cell phone”, it’s always a very exaggerated movement and looks more like someone who would be reaching for his gun. It’s always been my believe that after TM asked why he was being followed, GZ was reaching for his gun and not his phone. That, however, cannot be proven. You can see these repeated exaggerated motions at both 30’41”, and again at 38’40”.

      If anyone watches nothing else, the Q&A, from 37 minutes to about 1 hr 2 min in is a must see.

      I wondered why the State didn’t enter this interview into evidence, since I think it’s the best of all. But as TO and others have said here, there’s no fat lady singing on the State’s rebuttals and strategy. I would think that the Defense would like to enter the CVSA test into evidence, at which time I would hope the State would request the entire 71 minutes is entered as evidence, and available to the jurors in deliberation.

      • bellesouth says:

        You know, I am one of those lefties that writes and eats left handed but standing up I use my right hand to throw, etc. I have shot a gun and I used my right hand. But I talk on my phone with my left hand. I bet he does too. When he reached for his phone he found his gun, is what this sounds like to me.

        • aussie says:

          I’m a rightie but use phone with left hand (as use the right for dialing and/or for taking notes).

          Anyway he’s lying. If you put a phone in a usual place you ALWAYS put the phone there, your hand does it automatically. The excuse is accompanied by what very much looks like a six-shooter quickdraw movement, complete with pointing it, like kids playing cowboys and indians with hands for guns.

      • elle says:

        Lie detectors are not admissible.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I just picked up on something. Not being a gun guy and most people who aren’t gun people would not understand what gz really meant when he said he had to get his left hand out of the way.

        I could be wrong, so the gun people here can tell us if so. But I think what he was talking about was, not any fear of shooting himself in his left hand, but he was instead trying to avoid powder burning his left hand.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          lonnie says

          I could be wrong, so the gun people here can tell us if so. But I think what he was talking about was, not any fear of shooting himself in his left hand, but he was instead trying to avoid powder burning his left hand.

          that is the only way i can perceive it as an experienced gun owner.

          using simple logic we can deduce
          1. the defendant had to get his left hand out of the way
          2. his next action was to aim and fire

          so from what was he getting his hand out of the way?
          a bullet

  54. mgs710 says:

    I truly believe the GZ has many sociopathic tendencies. He is extremely crafty and the only reason he went on Hannity is to enhance the polarization of the country and hence contaminate the jury pool.

    I listened to the Computerized voice stress analysis taped interview conducted February 27, 2012, the day after the shooting, and I still can’t figure out how there can be the constant screaming by GZ–as he claims–while at the same time.

    There is a constant plead for many, many seconds right before the shot, yet GZ said “he was putting all of his weight on my nose and my mouth trying to suffocate me.”

    There is no way this story is true. And I didn’t consider the straddling by TM and the difficulty that would present both TM and GZ seeing and getting his gun from that position. Also when Serino asked GZ if he had his gun out, he flinch before he said no. That’s a tell if you ask me.

    How did GZ got the wounds? I believe that there was an initial altercation initiated by GZ’s stalking and not identifying himself. GZ then pulled the gun, TM saw the gun and tackled GZ but GZ kept control of the gun and eventual was able to get his heart shot off.

    • Dee says:

      Exactly, that’s one of the inconsistencies. As well, as he showed them wear he had his gun located on his side, which was on his right side toward the back. It would have been impossibly to even get to his gun, if what he said…He friend that wrote the book, said Zimmerman told him, that Trayvon knees were straddled under Zimmerman’s arm pits. Which would have made this impossible to even get to.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Dee, one more little point that you failed to notice in the walk thru the next morning was when the Fogdoit, told the detective he reached for his phone he used his right hand to illustrate that movement, yet in the photo taken after he had murdered Trayvon he was using his left hand to hold the phone, just like a person that was left handed would do…. So many lies, to cover such a short span of time… perhaps he should have had a legal tablet as he does now to keep track of which lie he needed to re-tell and in what order…. The problem with telling a lie is that too often you will need to tell more than one lie as time goes on and it soon becomes too difficult to remember which lie belongs with which version of the story….

        • Dee says:

          Yep, your right, It would have been no way he could have even gotten to his gun in that position. I truly believe the first time that Zimmerman came up to Trayvon. He had his gun exposed and this is when Tryvon may have tackled him, knowing this was the only experience that Trayvon would have had. He was a football player, not an MMA expert has Zimmerman.

          • Dee says:

            What I am thinking is that the prosecutors are trying to force Zimmerman to have to testify. I really think that this is what is going on. Because they had a lot more evidence and witnesses, they could have put on. However, they left it in a way that it is yet still confusing. Who better to make the jury understand what truly happened that night but Zimmerman. So I think this is the way they are trying to force Zimmerman to take the stand. Then we will see what the prosecutor will do to him, with all of his inconsistencies.

          • bellesouth says:

            If you’re in the jury and you’ve seen all the evidence and you play Zimmermans lies on video you have to shake your head because none of it lines up with the facts.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The main reason Fogen went on Hannity was for the big fund drive, although swaying public opinion was certainly another major consideration. They had a spike in donations at the time, although didn’t do as well as they hoped because so many people were turned off by the God’s plan remarks and others. The Hannity show, as I’m sure you all know, was a turning point for a lot of people on the fence and a call to battle for those already supporting Trayvon.

      GZLC on FB would not let pro-Trayvon people post in their thread that night during the program (it was supposed to be a discussion forum, not a GZ only forum) and I was banned from it because I commented negatively about the God’s Plan remark during the airing. It wasn’t long before GZLC dropped the FB page.

  55. My Forehead Tho says:

    Morning all.

    Reading other sites and comments, most people believed Fogen’s uncle lied yesterday. However one juror may have believed him:

    • Sophia33 says:

      This juror is problematic to me anyway. I heard that while the other jurors were listening to Rachel, she was staring off in space. In fact, I have heard by a couple of sources that she stares off in space.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Do we know what the order of the alternates is, should one seated juror be be dismissed. Is the one remaining guy up next?

      • bettykath says:

        She moved from Chicago with her 8 kids so they would be safe. I wonder if she has previous experiences where she has become afraid of AA and, like fogen, sees them all as thugs. If that’s the case, we have to hope that the other 5 are able to help her see the evidence, not her preconceptions.

        • concernedczen says:

          This juror is black. She was first described as black and then Hispanic after she spoke. She said ALL of her friends believed that GZ was guilty. She seemed down to earth and a hard working CNA who has a son who is 20 years old.

          I think she is probably one of the more pro-prosecution jurors, but I guess we will see.

          It is of course possible that she does not identify as black as some black hispanics do not, but I have a hard time imaging that she would identify with Zimmerman’s clan rather than with someone like Bernie.

          I guess we will see, but from her voir dire, I really liked her and she seemed decent and unbiased.

          I would take these jury reports with a grain of salt.

          I had a hard time looking at Rachel myself because it made me too sad to see what she was going through.

          • crazy1946 says:

            I might suggest that this lady who works with people with mental issues has developed the ability to block her feeling from her outside appearance ! Most (but not all) nurses show very little emotion in their demeanor. My ex-wife is a good example of that, as a long time RN, she is in my opinion, very cold hearted emotionally, I don’t mean that she is a bad person, just has the ability to block many emotional reactions that most of us expose our selves to when dealing with life….

          • Fantastic post @concernedczen. Any info on the others that’s legal to share? At this point of the trial that’s the info I scour twitter for, ppl in the crtroom & jury reaction.

          • HereslookingatYou says:

            @Concerned always one of my favorites

          • Trained Observer says:

            Are you sure she’s black?

          • Sophia33 says:

            I first wondered WHEN this staring off in space occurs. If it is when West is speaking that is totally understandable. LOL!!!

          • diary73 says:

            I noticed her when she walked into the courtroom. She is NOT black. She has a tanned complexion, but she is straight up Hispanic. She is not even as dark as GZ’s mother. She was sitting on the first row, so I was unable to notice much about her reactions.

          • aussie says:

            Guys let me point out, as an outsider, that there is black and then there is black.

            What you regard as “being black” is being of former slave African origin. Other people who happen to have black or dark skin may suffer all sorts of discrimination, same as white (or yellow or red or green) skinned minorities do, too. But they may put that down to factors other than their skin colour. And their cultural experience is not coloured ( if I I may use that word here) by the same slavery/JimCrow history. Especially ones whose line is recent arrivals in the US, ie who themselves or their parents arrived after the mid 60’s.

            So you can’t assume everyone with black-looking skin identifies AS black or WITH blacks. Some may actually be racists against AA blacks, for whatever reasons, including possible such prejudices where they come from against their local ex-slaves, even if they have some of that blood themselves. It’s not a simple clear-cut thing that goes by skin colour and is the same all over the world. Different again for someone coming from an area where the majority is black (to look at).

            So this juror may consider herself Hispanic and that’s it. (Actually she most likely considers herself Cuban or Mexican or wherever she came from). The “black” was an assumption, by sight, from the reporter who tweeted a description: the Hispanic was added once she started speaking.

            Background: there is no institutionalised racism in Australia. The dozens of big minority groups taken together outnumber the majority group. Some individuals are racists against selected minorities. Some minorities are racists against some other minorities (in some cases for historic reasons from their original homelands) Some blame discrimination they themselves feel on their target hated group, for having behaved in a way that brings discrimination against all minorities. Generally older immigrant groups (second or third generation) tend to look down on more recent arrivals. But, in some areas schools have recent-immigrant kids from 7 or 8 countries, so THEY all grow up thinking speaking a different language is normal. Today’s kids won’t share the bigotry of their parents, although a few may be disowned for marrying “out”.

            I am sure this type of smaller scale bigotry exists in the US too, for instance the various South American countries must have a “pecking order” vis a vis each other, as well as internal classifications depending on the ancestry mix, which they’d not forget the minute they reach US soil. Blaming AA blacks for “causing” discrimination against other minorities may be quite widespread, too.

            So from this juror’s complexion you can’t make any assumptions about which way she’d lean… the same as GZ being “afro-peruvian” doesn’t make it impossible for him to be racist against blacks.

          • concernedczen says:

            I am describing her as black based on how she was described by the reporters (on twitter) when she first entered the courtroom for voir dire. After she spoke, then some started describing her as Hispanic. Some described her as a light-skinned black woman or Hispanic.

          • concernedczen says:

            I definitely do not agree that there is no institutionalized racism in Australia.

        • concernedczen says:

          Thanks, here’s looking at you. Thanks Elijah. If you are a member of there is a whole thread with information on all of the jurors and the videos of their questioning is also posted, so it’s easy to get information from there.

          If I had to go with my gut having listened to all of their interviews but not seeing them or reading their questionnaires, I think there are at least 2-3 jurors who are not potential nutty racists/right wing types that will not convict no matter what.

          If there are 3 who want to convict on Murder 2, perhaps a manslaughter compromise verdict will be reached. I think that’s the best hope given the makeup of this jury and that the defense was able to successfully remove the people they wanted to E7 (NPR, questioned gun rights guy) and the 2 other black women.

          • elle says:

            Concernedczn, I agree about the institutionalized racism in Australia. I have a long-lost uncle in Queensland who would beg to differ.

      • Dee says:

        Hope she hasn’t made up her mind already, before she even heard anything. I just pray to God this man gets put into prison. If not think will be an okay for anyone to hunt our children down when ever they feel the hate too.

        • concernedczen says:

          The only reason I am a little nervous about B29 is that the defense did not try to get rid of her.

          Other than that she seems unbiased, down to earth and reasonable in addition to being a mom of some teenagers/young adults.

          I re-listened to her questioning today and I really liked her.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      She is definitely the “wild card”…

    • Dee says:

      He lied, and he knows that nothing is going to come of it either. They are not talking that oaths seriously because they know that they can get away with it. They are doing what they have to do to get their son off. However, this whole family is in the law field. Just as Zimmerman in his head feels that he is a cop, but he is not. And this is what they could understand.

      If Zimmerman had not followed him and let the cop do their job, none of this would have ever happened. He was the main fault of everything that happened. He was not afraid for his life at no time. If he was he wouldn’t have gotten out of his car to begin with. I am a licensed carrier, and I wouldn’t have gotten out of my car because I am not a cop, and that is not my job. My license to carry is to protect my space not the neighborhood.

      • aussie says:

        Dee, the reason you’d not have gotten out is that you are SENSIBLE. You’d not have called the cops on Trayvon, either, for the same reason.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      She made me nervous when she was questioned during jury selection. I do not trust her and I hope that the other women can help her see the truth if needed. Perhaps she agrees with him because he is a sheriff and his oath and nothing else. I am going to pray for her. She seemed too desperate to get on the jury and had not formed any opinion or made any comments while her Facebook friends discussed the case all the time? I found that hard to believe.

  56. MDH says:

    If T was pressing down on GZ’s nose and mouth, then why is the blood that came from the two punctuate wound on the tip of his nose not smeared all over his face?

    How did blood, a medium with sticky coagulants, not cling to the palms and fingers of T’s hands?

    IMO, the reason that there was not “tie together” presented before prosecution closed is that they want to sets forth a long list of lies and nonsense by GZ for closing.

    There are so many that they could fill a binder.

    • jduu says:

      Has anyone noticed that the two punctuate wounds on the tip of GZ’s nose bear a resemblance to the two prongs of the rear gun sight of his Kel-Tec PF9?

      Also, that the laceration on the bridge along with the bruising down the right side of his nose have a similar size and shape to a 9mm ejected cartridge shell?

      • Dee says:

        Hope she hasn’t made up her mind already, before she even heard anything. I just pray to God this man gets put into prison. If not think will be an okay for anyone to hunt our children down when ever they feel the hate too. I have had that in my spirit from the beginning of this case.

        You can look at the blood flow on Zimmerman head, and it is flowing toward his cheek, showing you that he was leaning over Trayvon not on the bottom. Gravity doesn’t lie. However, this was not even mentioned in court. This is starting to make me think that they really don’t want to win this case. They are just making it look as though they do, to keep the public quite. I think this was just to make us believe that they were going to bring Zimmerman to just. Which the whole while they’re making it so that the jury can let him walk. Then they will say that justice has spoken; yeah right.

        Something is not right with this trial I don’t know if others may think this as well. But the prosecution have left out to much evidence that they could have been using as well as people like that white woman that said it was differently a little boys voice. She wasn’t even called.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          And worst thought of all, this idiot will repeat murder and think that he is untouchable.

          Too bad he is going to jail. I doubt that those women will not find him guilty with the evidence presented so far and the games and disrespect that the defense shows especially towards women and African Americans.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Binders fulll of Fogen lies rather than what’s-his-name’s binders full of women. 🙂

    • MDH says:

      The tip of the nose life threatening trauma {pardon the sarcasm} also shows no sign of flowing down the side of GZ’s face. That puts to lie any scenario wherein GZ was laying on his back after getting that wound for any significant amount of time. The blood flow is down onto his lips and chin. One has to be standing or upright for that to happen.

      However, a kick back from the gun when GZ shoots T from an upright position fits the evidence well.

      I guess this would be page 3, line 25 of the GZ binder full of lies.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Well according to MOM, he swallowed all of the blood which ran down his throat! LOL Now I bet dog on well that some if not all of those women have had a nose bleed or someone that has that have attempted to tilt their head back only to find that that will cause the blood to run down your throat and gag you. What you would not do is swallow all that thick metal tasting blood. During his attempts to sit up, that would cause the blood to flow down.

        Those women are going to be so upset at MOM taking them for idiots to believe that GZ swallowed all of his blood. Like Dr. Rao said, you would cough it out silly rabbit!

    • crazy1946 says:

      This was simply heart breaking to hear from Mz. Fulton. Two items to note, first is the look of hatred that is shown on the murderers face as Mz. Fulton testifies and the second is, I think this is the first witness that the Fogdoit has not written instructions to his attorney during the testimony, could it be that he could think of no way to discredit her words? It is unreal that an individual (still can’t bring myself to call this coward a man!) could show such a degree of hatred toward the family of the child whose life he has stolen…… he is indeed an empty shell of a human carcass!

      • aussie says:

        It was horrifying to here MOM try to get her to say that IF the screams were GZ that means her son was at least partly responsible for his own death.

        He didn’t offer condolences, as reported. He said “I APOLOGISE for your ….”

        Apologise is not the same as SORRY.

        Then he asks does she still hope her son is alive, when clearly he means WISH he were.

        Hey MOM do you understand English?

    • ay2z says:

      I would like to compare and contrast this with Gladys Z’s media interview contents that may have been devoid of any comment from this mother, of who was ‘screaming’ and yelling help.

      (see my comment below, can anyone find the original old fogen mom’s interviews? or have one clipped?)

    • Trained Observer says:

      Gladass talks, supplying words like “anguish, fear and terror.” Who would scream with those emotions? The kid with the candy? Or the stalker-bully with the gun cocked?

      • Malamiyya says:

        My feeling is that “anguish, fear and terror” — Gladys’s characterization of the scream — will be co-opted by the prosecution and figure in their closing argument.

    • pat deadder says:

      smoke Wonder how the Hispanic lady on the jury reacted when fogen’s mother was on the stand.

  57. Ty Flair says:

    When Guy did the opening statement in this case did you see the look on West face the defense ask for a 15min. break. The closing agruement will be ten time better that Guy opening. They will tell the whole story like they are reading a book to you. All his lies they will point out,they will take us on a journey with the time stamp second by second. They will show us those club house videos which would show us that fogen was not going to the store that night. When they are finish reading this book to us and the jurors you will see why MURDER 2 was the charge. Welcome lurkers join us.

  58. jodiwankanobi says:

    wow so many new posters today from all over the world, how wonderful to know so many people want justice for trayvon…very heart warming.

  59. smokeegyrl says:

    wow… From the Basque country… would love to know more since 50% of my DNA is from this country…

  60. Good morning all- thank you Professor again. Do the attorneys hire professional jury consultants and what do they actually do?

    • aussie says:

      Hello and welcome, Elijah.

      The prosecution did not hire jury consultants. The defence had one, whose website says they start from around $10,000 a day (not bad money eh?).

      The consultant’s job is to check out the jurors, get the right questions asked of them, to discover those who may be prejudiced against the client. If they’ve done this thousands of times, they have better judgement than an attorney who rarely does a jury trial.

      If you click June in the sidebar, you’ll see the blogs for jury selection. The consultant and the process is well explained in the first one (after that they’re comments about the potential jurors).

      We (this blog) didn’t get the ones we’d have liked, as most were too far down the list. We (the prosecution) didn’t either, as they were refused on a few of their peremptory challenges. In the end it probably won’t matter.

  61. Nellie Nell says:

    Good Morning All!

    This is indeed the best blog there is. Even when folks disagree here, it is civil.

    Those other sites and blogs do a ton of name calling and degrading Trayvon because of the color of his skin, They do not care anything about evidence direct or otherwise.

    The commentary on TV is just as disgusting as people tend to ignore the fact that the desperate screams (from that high pitched voice) saying, “get ooooooofffff get ooooooooffffff” would be coming from the grown man carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber. Bang, the screams end. The killer claims to not know he shot the kid in the heart even though he took careful aim to not shoot his own arm and then left the kid lay face down until the cops arrive. They make me sick. The worst was that reenactment posted by someone on this blog, with that Valdez-Mitchell chic sitting some guys thighs and reaching all the way to his head pretending to rain blows MMA style. From where she sat, the guy was easily able to reach his gun. Now had Trayvon been sitting way down on the thighs of his killer, he’d been far from the chest of the killer, would not have been able to slide his hand down his chest and would not have been able to reach the lumpy lump to put all his weight to smother. It just did not make sense. People like this makes me not want to hear commentary about this case. They are sick and have their own agenda.

    I find that people here are reasonable and open to the facts of this case and I am so glad that I have been lurking here for support!

    You guys rock!

    • MDH says:

      The chic conflated mounting MMA style with ride him cowgirl.

      The racists live in their own bubble wherein every black male has a super human strength to weight ratio and is a top rate fighter. Its “in the blood” in their warped minds.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Yeah and even with they know about Jahvaris being a 22 year old college Senior, they’d still label him a thug as mild mannered and quiet as he is.


        • fauxmccoy says:

          or more insidious yet, they’ll claim that jahvaris is only there because of that evil ‘affirmative action’ which keeps their low achieving crazy ass cracker kids (CACK for short) from getting into decent schools.

  62. MDH says:

    The GZ supporters remind me of the racists in “12 Angry Men”. The germ of that movies was that he must have done it because “those people” are prone to that.

    Taffe is clearly the bitter old man with issues relating to his own child.

    The so-called objective GZ supporters at Daily Kos such as coffeetalk are the intelligent racists who use science or logic to rationalize assumptions. That type of creep was embodied by the character played by EG Marshall.

    In the Trayvon trail, the GZ supporters are following the meme that T must have put a beat down on GZ because “those people” are prone to doing that.

    They give GZ every benefit of the doubt and pat themselves on the back for it.

    IMO, they suck and are a boil on the butt on humanity.

    If GZ had given T even the tiniest benefit of the doubt, then many, many lives would not have been destroyed.

    • Malisha says:

      Both of Taaffe’s sons are dead. One of them published an angry diatribe about his father, making it clear that he was an abuser. The Taaffe factor has been a horrible and peculiar piece of this case all along.

    • Mary says:

      i frequently post at dkos under the user name doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers, and i can not tell you how much i enjoyed your post.

  63. ic2fools says:

    I could not believe Duh-fense objected to the weather report of that night.

    Their whole defense against DNA was because of the rain.

    Weather Report will West the case of washed away fogen DNA! HA SNORT!

    • cielo62 says:

      ic2fools~ I believe someone mentioned that they were wanting to blame the wind noises on the NEN call on wind and NOT on the fact that gz was running, even when told not to follow. BUT if the weather report says says no wind, then it becomes obvious those noises are from running and not from natural wind blowing.

      • ic2fools says:

        Yep, yet duh-fense objected to the weather report for that night used as evidence!

        fogen followed in his truck, got out in the rain, ran after Trayvon. no self defense.

        top that off fogen said on hannity he got out of his truck to meet an officer on the other side the ‘T’ he had called. That officer is Tim Smith, and phone records will prove that. The State will get those records in.

        Ice O’Ass Cream will open that door.

        Closing arguments will be sooner than we think, duh-fense will not have much to use in defense. O’Ass said last night that they are ‘considering’ putting fogen on the stand.

        The State is about to make an absolute fool out of the duh-fense next week.

        Albeit they will want to use duh-fense exhibits too.

      • mataharley says:

        I’m going to interject something here from my film sound editor background that some of you may reject. But the sound you hear on the NEN call is not wind noise. It’s what we call “cloth movement” in film/foley business. i.e., what you heard was the sound of the cell’s microphone picking up the swish movement of GZ’s jacket as he walked. You can hear the same type of noise, including loud shuffling of paperwork, on the various SPD interviews. Obviously, being indoors, that can’t be mistaken as “wind”.

        GZ says he did a fast walk, which I think is one of his truths peppered in between the varying degrees of half truths and lies in his story. He walked fast from his SUV to the tee, where he stopped and finished his NEN phone call. He pegs that as the position in his reenactment video, but only after he has to correct himself after saying he walked to the end of the tee to RVC. The cloth movement, and it’s duration, is good indication that he walked to the tee, then stopped to look down the path while finishing the call. It’s the reason that he continued to walk after being told they didn’t need him to do that… he wanted to make it to that intersection.

        Loosely, from the SUV park site to the tee is approx 165′ to 169′. GZ’s cloth movement lasts about 33 seconds on the NEN call which is about 5 ft per second, or a brisk walk pace. Where GZ went from that tee location in the approx two minutes after hanging up is, I believe, key to the prosecutions case. What we do know is that he did not travel 33 seconds back to the SUV.

        • cielo62 says:

          Mataharley-, that is interesting! So why else would the defense object to the weather report? I think it was Sean that called them wind sounds. Interesting detail!


  64. YQ says:

    Should the State have a good day with Vincent de Mayo then I think that the chances of Fogen taking the stand are abundant. Mantei’s argument was dead on IMO and he even touched on the impossibility of Fogen getting to his gun despite being straddled. There had to be a lull in the struggle giving him the time to aim and shoot the kid, as expressed by his own admission in one of the police statements. He shot the kid because he wanted to.

    • sadlyyes says:

      He shot the kid because he wanted to.

      that is the whole(shootin match) the police were on the way,the kid was UNARMED…he aimed at the childs heart with a hollow point bullet….he wanted his trophy,he is extremely sick individual,who should not be in public.If i saw him in Walmart,or Target,i would RUN for my life!

  65. willisnewton says:

    fellow speculators:

    Here is a screenshot of BDLR’s timeline presented as the last exhibit by the defense, in front of the jury as the state announced it was resting. Don’t think that wasn’t deliberate.

    Screen shot 2013-07-06 at 8.37.55 AM

    Sadly, on a 240p youtube stream it’s unreadable but for the largest print, which carries the date. I did what I could w photoshop to increase contrast, sharpen edges, etc but it’s like trying to read oatmeal. If anyone Tivo’d the hearing as broadcast locally, please let me know. It may be readable on a broadcast quality recording.

    There seem to be eight lines, total.

    From what I can tell I think the fifth line reads G U N S H O T and nothing else. That leaves seven events, three of which are seemingly post-gunshot.

    It’s also color coded, but only the green color seems to repeat. There is no KEY to what the colors refer to that I can discern.

    Has BDLR been putting colored stickers on that big white map of the dog walk he keeps referring to? Where is he going with this?

    Food for thought and speculation. It’s going to be a while until closing arguments.

    It’s also possible a news photographer captured a better version as a still shot, but I have not checked the various news sites that may have posted this. I’m not sure what the rules are about still photography in Judge Nelson’s court.

    I also don’t know how FLorida’s opene records and sunshine laws affect this sort of thing, but I wish we could know what was on this exhibit.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Interesting comment of yours, willis.

      A question: Are the court’s transcripts available to the public. Is there a link to those transcripts?

      • willisnewton says:

        I’m not a lawyer but it’s my understanding that the court reporter makes a transcript but that it only becomes “official” upon the filing of an appeal. Until that time only the decision is in the official record. Part of the burden for convicted citizens is that they must pay a fee to get those transcripts.

        I’ve done historical research in the past and hoped for such transcripts and not found them because the case was never appealed. In that instance, one was left with what was reported in the media – and as we have all seen they are not accurate on many occasions.

        The truth will be spoken only at selected times in this trial, yet every false claim that MOM made has already been trumpeted in the press.

        Keep that in mind for the future. Also, as someone once famously said, “the truth is redacted.”

        • Malisha says:

          Jurors can get transcripts. Nowadays the technology is such that they have almost INSTANT transcripts available, but they are not 100% accurate.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Thanks for your answers, Willis and Malisha.

          I think individuals show download gz’s audio and video statements of Feb26 thru Feb29 to personal CD disks or thumbnails…..also the transcripts from screaming Jay…….just to preserve them in case the sites displaying them are ever shut down.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      One of them is ” Ofc Smith arrives at RTL – 17:11″ . That one was right under gunshot. The defense insisted the State added ” in car” to that particular entry. Shows you how little attention the defense spend on the timeline.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Should be 7:17:11 pm.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Is any one knowledgeable as to when police officers are supposed to enter their arrival times? Surely it’s protocol that it be when they stop the car, not while driving.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Amsterdam

        Playing Chess

        To add to your observation, a couple of very consequential events very quietly took place yesterday without much funfair or anyone noticing:

        a. At the end of the State’s case in chief and in the middle of the oral pleadings for judgment of acquittal, O’Mara admitted: “I am not exactly sure what the State’s case is –yet”! That’s quite a statement from a counsel in a murder2 case.

        b. Additional to the fact that he State presented exhibit with timelines and ”smuggled” it into evidence without saying a word of what it was intended for;

        c. The State also entered weather report for RTL on 26 February 2012;

        d. BDLR to SF: “was Trayvon Martin right- or left handed”?

        e. SF: “Trayvon was right handed”;

        f. BDLR to SF: “Trayvon had two tattoos on his body, do you know where they were and why?”

        g. SF: ‘yes, one on his upper right shoulder with grandma’s name and the other on his left wrist with my name’;

        I think O’Mara is still scratching his head asking himself “what the heck is the State’s case?” and may not figure it out until he hears “checkmate!”.

        • aussie says:

          His fault for not reading the EVIDENCE, which was openly available even to the public for more than a year.

          Hey, MOM it goes like this:

          GZ stalked Trayvon then murdered him to shut up the only witness to his crime of stalking him.


          Get it?

        • amsterdam1234 says:

          Playing chess, that’s what I am thinking too. The prosecution has taken some chances by not exposing certain evidence, and they probably need the defense to put certain witnesses on the stand to get that evidence in during cross and rebuttal.
          I know that there is dynamite evidence in those eyewitness statements, and I can see why the prosecution didn’t want to connect the dots just yet.

          They have the defense scrambling. I’ve heard they are very busy deposing witnesses right now. That seems a bit too late too.

          • Mary says:

            prosecution is waiting for defense to commit to a narrative of what happened that night, and then BDLR is going to drive a sherman tank through all the holes in it.

            prosecution perhaps knows of defense’s propensity towards obfuscation via niggling little side issues, as a way to befuddle the juror (‘if you can’t dazzle them with facts, baffle them with bullshit’) and didn’t want the overall thrust and impact of their
            line of reasoning to be lost on the jurors by being swept away in a sea of bovine by-products.

          • amsterdam1234 says:

            You are so eloquent. I can’t wait to call someone out on their bovine by-products.
            I think you are right, the defense now has to commit to a narrative. The defense has spend their money on pr stunts and the jury guy, and their time on going after Crump.

        • KA says:

          SM- I think you are exactly right. I have noticed numerous things the State have either entered into evidence or got “on the record” and validated they have not used. BLDR does not seem concerned with the “wayward” testimony of some of the more defense friendly testimonies, he seems to have a purpose and place for each, and additional stuff that comes out is treated like noise and almost disregarded.

          I think this is a cat and mouse game the defense is going to lose because they never saw it coming.

        • KA says:

          …and honestly, BLDR is a better attorney than West and O’Mara. I will give them, they are really good at eliciting witness responses to nonsensical extreme spectrum parameters (ie path liar or truth) and causing confusion and fog in cross, but BLDR is more strategic and calculated.

          I would put my bet on the State attorneys anyday.

          I am not sure what, if anything. Judge Nelson will do about the ice cream photo, But bet to be sure..she didn’t like it. BLDR was smart to put it in front of her…

        • KA says:

          One other point to this…

          The defense has a huge weakness point….they CARE what the talking heads, supporters, and media (ie public) think every single day of trial…their livelihood, win or lose, depend on it.

          The State is in it for conviction….they could care less about the public or the media.

          O’Mara needs to have the media and public see him put his best foot forward everyday and get everything on the table….the need transparency in a way that the State does not require. I suspect the State is betting on this.

    • Puck says:

      I reckon the green bars are the Trayvon/Rachel calls, and the orange bar is GZ’s NEN call. I think the pink might be Jenna’s 911 call.

      The stickers they’ve been putting on the diagram of the houses and dog walk are white.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      thanks for that screenshot, willis, i wish it were more readable, but we’ll be seeing it soon enough.

      one item that we know is on it other than ‘gunshot’ is the arrival of ofc. smith to the scene. we know this because of west’s objection and it happens after the gunshot, obviously.

      i guess that is about all we know for sure at this point.

    • KA says:

      I wrote an entry about that said that basically said that while things in court and said/not said thus far, Bernie has quietly been entering things into evidence that have not been this timeline, but there have been various things.

      The ID of the button by Sybrina I assume will be key (as pointed out by our LLMPapa previously). I think this chart is also key.

      I think BLDR is a patient and calculated man. He does not waste time on things that will not make a hill of beans in closing and deliberations, but quietly builds little by little, almost in stealth, which I think will be a whammy in court.

      I do not think we have seen the best of the State’s case.

  66. LiveByTheGulf says:

    I’ve been lurking off and on from the beginning. This is the only place I go now for comments. I live in Southwest Florida. It appeared to me that the defense did a great job in trying to confuse the facts by burrowing on and on into details and “isn’t it possible that…” and leading witnesses – “wouldn’t you agree that …”. The uncle’s testimony was believable. Oh crap.
    But then I started realizing –
    1) why would you be yelling with help knowing death was eminent – if you had a gun in your hands.
    2) There’s one nagging doubt about the uncle. The uncle gave impression to me that he didn’t know anything about Fogen’s killing of Travon and was working at his computer – and when he heard the scream on TV the uncle said “That’s George!” If the Uncle & George had such an intimate loving connection, why wouldn’t the uncle would know every intimate detail of the case (from George or other police personnel)?
    3) Police stick together. Support the system. Wonder if the prosecution of this case would be different if George wasn’t surrounded by family and friends in law enforcement.

    • sadlyyes says:

      i believe law enforcement uses dropped guns (drops) where UNARMED peeps are found at a crime scene. that is what i have heard.we live in a police state,where we are constantly monitored
      ITs CREEPY as CAC

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      wonder if the Uncle will say the same for exemplar of the killer..yelping help..hope the prosecution plays it on rebuttal

    • J4TMinATL says:

      I just remembered that the uncle on the stand is the father to the girl who accused GZ of sexual abuse. (Fogen’s cousin).

      • cielo62 says:

        J4TM~ no, its a different uncle, not this one.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Uncle Jorge was on the stand, whereas Uncle Mike (Miguel) apparently is the dad of the molestation accuser.

          BTW, did you notice that on two occasions while Jorge was on the stand Bernie referred to Fogen as his son, both time apologizing.

          Did Bernie genuinely make a double slip? Or was Bernie trying to get him riled? Or does Bernie know something we don’t know?

          • Malisha says:

            Interesting because at one point we heard that Junior and Fogen were the biological sons of Gladys’s SISTER, did we not?

          • Trained Observer says:

            @Malisha — Some vague comment was made along those lines, but I don’t remember by who or where, and at the time I thought the remark seemed silly.

            Now, however, I’m wondering if Bernie was sending a little signal to Jorge to watch himself before getting into a perjuring hole. Especially after Jorge’s TMI about labor pains.

            Few would disagree that Fogen, Junyaar, and Grace all look alike, and similar to Gladazz, with nary a tad of Pops Z in evidence.

            Adoption records in most, if not all, states are sealed even to adoptees until proof can be shown that the adoptive parents and/or the birth mothers are deceased or if other special circumstances can be addressed through courts.

            The Peruvian or Puerto Rico angles leave wiggle room for exceptions to standard adoption practices via Stateside rules The cousin accusing Fogen of long-time molestation may have revealed all kinds of family insider info to the State.

          • Ms.X says:

            The uncle testified that there were 2 brothers & Gladys. At the time I thought, “She had the exact same family that she grew up in.”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Also, the uncle’s memory of gz yelling goes back to when he was a kid and playing with his uncle’s kids.

      He basically was saying it was a young kid’s cry/yell……..NOT an adult cry/yell.

      • Malisha says:

        Perhaps Serino will testify for the defense trying to place the screams in Fogen’s mouth.

        • Danita says:

          Oh yes Malisha Serino will be , because remember when West was told by jn call him as your own witness and he replied I will do just that.To me Serino seemed reluctant, he had a look like damn I do not want to do this. Something really went on with Serino because why did he go back to beat cop……hmmmmm

          • bettykath says:

            Serino is being punished for filing the papers to charge for manslaughter. He’ll put in his time for his retirement. I think Serino would have done a good job if there were any support within SPD to do it.

          • Malisha says:

            Serino didn’t just file papers asking for a charge of manslaughter; he filed that memo after TWICE asking for murder-2 charges in earlier drafts. He has messed up his own efforts to do an honest job because he’s conflicted and he’s caught in some kind of doo doo, I can hardly imagine what kind, but E-coli really do invade any tissue they come into contact with. Especially with the thin-skinned police force he serves.

            He’s no dummy. He knows what he’s doing and he knows what he’s done. He’s more than a double- or triple-agent. He’s a cipher but he’s playing a nasty nasty game. He will deliver more surprises before this is over.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            serino is also being punished for leaking the video of the defendant’s arrival to SPD in which he appears relatively unharmed to the media. i think he was trying to tell us all something, but the powers that be kept his hands tied.

          • willisnewton says:

            Serino is a mystery and has refused interviews. I think he may have been demoted for leaking the video of Zimmerman arriving at the cop shop relatively unscathed and walking notmally etc that was broadcast by ABC news. But that’s a rumor.

        • diary73 says:

          I still wonder what that look that he gave O’Mara was all about when he was asked about the spreading of the arms.

          • Nellie Nell says:

            I got a flip of the thumb and a look towards the defense as if to say, “I can’t lie for you on that one” as BDLR published something to the jury. I wish I could find it, but then again I suck at cutting and pasting video snippets. I had to play it back for my friend because she missed it, but it was very telling to me.

      • disappointed says:

        I thought I heard the uncle say something about Fogen playing with his boys. Once again pointing out a young man’s screams and not a grown CAC.

        • mataharley says:

          I thought Uncle Jorge’s account was rather odd. His bio accounts on the stand was that he was with the Orange County law enforcement for 36 years…if memories serves me correctly… meaning he resided in Florida for that duration.

          I was under the assumption that GZ grew up in VA, and only moved to FL circa 2006. A point in time where he would be approx 23 years old, and not likely to be out yelling and playing his with cousins, as the uncle testified.

          If all that’s true, the Uncle’s account of listening to the children play together all the time was likely limited to temporary vacation periods, when the families were together, and not daily fare.

          Personally, I thought his rather dramatic “I recognized it as Georgie immediately”, without knowing what was being broadcast in the next room, as carefully crafted BS.

          • Malisha says:

            Fogen put up on his FB page or tweeted (I never know the difference) a few years back that he was going to move to Florida where he would work for his uncle in his uncle’s new million dollar insurance company. Maybe his uncle had a company where you kept insurance that you would not be charged with any crimes in case you killed somebody. An “anti-indictment insurance” company.

          • elle says:

            Malisha, I thought that was something in his yearbook, which shows us how mature he was. “My uncle’s million dollar business!!!!!!!!” Psycho. I bet all his classmates believed him too! Right?

          • KA says:

            I do not think BLDR cares who the defense brings to the stand to say it was GZs voice. It ends abruptly at the gun shot and with GZ stating he had to “restrain” him afterwards, obviously he did not think the threat ended so it logically excludes him as the source of the scream. I am waiting for that to come out in cross or rebuttal.

            MOM himself said to Sybrina that if GZ was the source then Trayvon caused his own death….if it is Martin, then it was GZs fault….

            I am not sure, as a defense attorney, I would have made that big of a gamble.

            If the State can hammer and get someone [expert] to agree in that logical conclusions, then if that circumstantial evidence that the scream was Martins is well established, the jury has a nice road of conviction.

            I can’t stand the TV analysts. They only look at what is heard and their opinions verses the evidence and logic of this case.

            I think there will be a gotcha moment in trial, I just think it will be a re positioning of something in existing evidence that will leave little doubt of guilt.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Tio Jorge testified to his career in the military (top sergeant in some capacity) followed by his current gig at the neighboring county’s Sheriff’s Department.

        • aussie says:


          good one, Malisha.

          But that company went out of business. That’s why GZ is in court today.

  67. Sophia33 says:

    I am so sick of the posters on HP. Isn’t HP supposed to be a liberal site? Then why all of the support for a child murderer? Why is HP allowing some of these comments?

    • sadlyyes says:

      HUFF alot,is now owned by AOL,they gave Arianna 300 million dollars for it…NO it is NOT liberal,or even sensible,dont give them hits,makes them RICH!

      • ic2fools says:

        Andrew Briebart helped Arianna launch HP. Who is Mr. Crackers’ hero.

        Can’t say enough about his support of Ice Cream as his choice of counsel for fogen or belief that Ice Cream is the duh-fense ‘Secret Weapon’

        Heck they may have as well use ‘Secret Agent Phillip Sheppard’ from survivor as their ‘secret weapon’. He could have worn his pink briefs used ‘Stealth R Us’ for duh-fense opening statements.

    • colin black says:

      Traffic an hits so I suggest the admins go onto a main road an play in the traffic fast lanes good fun.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Sophia33, racism is not owned by any particular political party, granted it is more obvious within the structure of some (ie: the owner of the tree sewer is a high ranking member of the Tea Party, per some reports), all people are able to be racist in theory. The key to ending racism is the individual, only we within ourselves can stop our own acts of racism, by our own will. The government cannot legislate morality any more than they can outlaw crime. You, and I and many others have looked inward and chosen not to walk the path of racism, many more will follow our example if we stay the course. Just my two cents worth….

      PS: Good Morning 🙂

      • Sophia33 says:

        Yes, but the racist element in this, as you point out, tends to be the most conservative element in this country, with a few exceptions.

    • IMBack says:

      I think GZs defense Teams consist of at least 10 dedicated bloggers.

    • Malisha says:

      TalkLeft is supposed to be liberal — swalled Fogen’s lie about being attacked complete with the imaginary head-smashing and never got up off that pile of poop. “Liberal” doesn’t mean anything any more. The right wing stole a march on the language long ago and we have lost the ability to define ourselves as we go along.

      That is our society’s biggest loss. As Gregory Lambrakis said, “Words have to start meaning what they mean, again.” But apparently not here, not now. RIP Minister Z.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Very well said Malisha! I forgot about TalkLeft. Someone mentioned that last week. They were saying that TalkLeft was nothing by GZ supporters. I was shocked by that.

  68. mimi712 says:

    I’m watching all about this case since the beginning and read through all of your many great and interesting comments from Germany! I appreciate this blog incredibly since I sometimes don’t know how to deal with all the emotions that boil underneath my skin. I can’t stand any injustice and I’m a mother as well. Other than that I’m involved in the fight against the DP and by chance it all began when I visited Florida some 13 years ago! I truly hope that this jury gets it right and convicts despite (in my opinion) a pretty weak prosecution (intentionally?) and a defense that to me, plays into the prejudice of a lot of white people.

    • bettykath says:

      I’m somewhat disappointed about a bit but the prosecution has all it needs in evidence. What’s missing is the narrative that ties it all together. Let the defense wonder how they will do it. It will come together. We got a glimpse of it with Mantei’s counter to MOM’s motion for a directed verdict. Let the defense do it’s thing. More to come.

      • Malisha says:

        Still, if they give the wrap-up now, the defense has something to punch holes in. If they wait, the defense has to give ITS version of what happened and the State can dismantle it on rebuttal.

        It’s clever. Bernie is a genius in his way. Remember he said, “There’s no evidence she’s under 18” at one of the pretrial hearings? Everybody thought, “how dumb.” Remember he said, “There could be two voices on the tapes” at one of the pretrial hearings? He’s a genius in his way.

        • IMBack says:

          and didn’t Guy say in openning statements, that Trayvon and Forgen was on the phone right before the shot? or was he referring to the 911 call?

        • KA says:

          I think that too. BLDR is far too experienced for what seems a rookie mistake. I have noticed that as everyone has concentrated on what is said in court and not said in court, BLDR is quietly entering some very damning evidence, it seems, at every turn.

          I suspect this…that the State is well aware of what the defense is going to do with this case. They seem to be content letting them spew a false narrative without objection when they could have easily stopped it.

          I suspect it is part of a master plan to knock it out of the park in rebuttal and closing. Those are the last things that the jury will hear and understand.

          I cannot bring myself to believe that this is all the State is doing when the evidence they have had entered is far more damning than the witnesses and exhibits they have openly talked about.

          I just remember the “surprise attack” of the bail revoking….they had every duck in a row for that and shocked everyone…

    • Malisha says:

      Mimi, the prosecution wasn’t weak. It proved the kill, the depraved mind, and the ill will. It made it very hard for the defense to put on a case for self-defense but once they do, it will dismantle that self-defense case with carnivorous glee.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Given well established depraved/ill-will evidence, even vegan Trayvon supporters are ready for red meat, finely diced.

      • mimi712 says:

        Thanks Malisha, that’s my hope in any case and I especially like and appreciate your posts as they’re very insightful to me!

    • ladystclaire says:

      @mimi712, Welcome and as one mother to another, I can’t imagine myself supporting the murderer of another mother’s child. But, that’s exactly what we have here in the U.S.of A. Trayvon was barley 17 when he passed into eternity, yet we have some white mothers/grandmothers supporting his murderer.

      There are a lot of things that I don’t understand about how some in this country have dogged an innocent unarmed child. Some of them went as far as to display photos of this child’s deceased body, among those of animals. I don’t know how they got that photo but, this needs to be investigated. That was so hurtful for someone to stoop that LOW.


      • sadlyyes says:

        imo,thats hokum,the greatest country in the world,we rank 27th in
        success of the middle class,around 11th in education,shall i go on
        people in the EU lead a happier healthier lifestyle.

        we have fallen mightilly,sigh

      • mimi712 says:

        Thanks for your welcome @ladystclaire! I hope you don’t mean that I support this murderer in any kind of way. I also saw those facebook sites where those pics were published and as many others also, reported them. It was successful, I believe. I’m not able to put myself in the minds of those kind of people and won’t ever understand it.
        From my perspective it’s an illusion that that country is the greatest in the world and it works just for those citizens who have never been anywhere else or don’t consciously inform themselves independantly.

  69. Good Morning all.

    Salut a tous les Francais & Francophones. Je suis heureux de voir que des compatriotes suivent cette affaire du pays.

    Tchoupi, Caillou, Tomtom & Nana, etc, sont que de bons souvenirs de ma vie en France avec les enfants.

  70. HereslookingatYou says:

    Whatzz up Ya’ll(Morn’in)I just want to say I really love and appreciate this site, I have followed this case from the day it came to light@JQ..I’m extremely passionate about this case, this case will determine whether we allow children to be hunted and murdered or not..

  71. Michael Stewart says:

    It kinda makes sense that the state would structure their case in a manner that would/could force fogen to the stand. However I seriously doubt that MOM would consider having him testify as long as the defense has other options. On the other hand, through sheer force of ego, CAC could overrule common sense on a moments notice and make a fatal error of judgment.

    Guess we’ll have to see how well the state does with cross and rebuttal.

    Greetings to lurkers new and old !

    • roderick2012 says:

      “It kinda makes sense that the state would structure their case in a manner that would/could force fogen to the stand.”

      Then the State is taking a huge gamble and given the way that the State handled it’s portion of the case I have doubts that they could take advantage of any opening the defense gives them.

      Furthermore the evidence that the State has introduced they have failed to tie up loose ends like George’s lie about not knowing the SYG.

      I was expecting the State to play the re-enactment video and have some law expert point out how George’s version of events hit on each element required for a SYG defense. Instead they opted for just calling into question George’s credibility.

      The State has failed to introduce so much evidence including George’s inflammatory texts and emails that they agreed to seal until the trial.

      • Danita says:

        I so agree roderick, im wondering what is going on here. The state has dropped the ball a few times, they let the defense hammer Ms Jantel,they let Serino flip his answers, they never support Trayvons right to defend himself. Many of the States witnesses were flipped by the defense. This has been very sloppy. Why did they call Trayvons brother, the mother was powerful.Why not call Trayvons coach or someone from school to clear up some of the rumors.This case is starting to feel thrown,I could be wrong but im not feeling very positive about alot of things. Most important what about someone to prove the position Trayvon was in when he was shot…….

        • bettykath says:

          Calling Trayvon’s brother was great! You can see the resemblance with Trayvon and he’s soft spoken and educated. A look at who Trayvon was and could have been. Brother has clearly been hurt to the core by his brother’s death.

          They haven’t called others who knew Trayvon b/c the rumors are not in evidence. If the state calls someone who says what a good boy he was, the defense can bring all the rumors into evidence. Objections will be made to the rumors, but the bell will have been rung. Best to keep his past, good and bad, out of evidence. It’s not relevant anyway. Even if Trayvon were thug MOM has tried to make him out to be, he had every right to walk home in the rain without being shot.

          • Danita says:

            Thanks for clearing that up bettykath im just so nervous about whats to come I feel better…..this site is awsome

          • parrot says:

            “You can see the resemblance with Trayvon and he’s soft spoken and educated. A look at who Trayvon was and could have been.”

            Well put, my dear.

        • Puck says:

          Danita, I’ve been saying this a lot here since the State rested yesterday, especially when people have expressed their worries about what’s to come and what the State hasn’t done (so far):

          The prosecution had a strategy in their case-in-chief. They did a great job in laying the foundation while gaining ground on the defense’s ridiculous arguments and dispelling many of GZ’s lies. But they have not, by any means, actually rested their case. They have three more strategies planned and ready to deploy (with any requisite tweaking): one for the defense’s case-in-chief, one for their rebuttal, and one for their closing. So there’s more to come. They have to let the defense put their crap out there (even doing some of it for them) in the defense’s case, and then they can come back with a rebuttal that tears it all down, followed by the closing (the State closes last, getting the last word) where they tie the whole thing together, having now presented and built their case over three stages of the trial. Don’t despair: the best is yet to come.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @roderick2012, I can’t wrap my mind around the state not unsealing that evidence which would further show the world the depraved mind of this child killer and, his hatred for AA. It looks to me, that the state is concerned about protecting Fogen.

        Trayvon’s phone was dismantled and, gone over with a fine toothed comb, while Fogen’s shit remains private. What ever is sealed concerning things he said surrounding this case, should be unsealed.

        What ever is in those documents, concerns things he said and wrote about this murder. Why would the state want to keep it sealed?

        • parrot says:

          Lady, I, too, wonder about Z’s text messages disparaging Tracy Martin.

          BDLR asked Z about that text in the bond hearing when Z took the stand.

          Do you know if Z’s texts are seal from the jury as well?

          • (flcarroll) says:

            He probably call SPD as he stated “I already called the police”, and told them to call daddy. That would explain why the don’t and won’t release his records. I believe I recall him calling Angela Corey at one point. This guy has connections

        • roderick2012 says:

          Add to that fact that when the State agreed to seal George’s cell phone and text messages they ‘forgot’ to seal anything on Trayvon’s cell phone.

        • pat deadder says:

          Why does fogen look so confident or is it just the drugs he is on.I hope.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          remember that phone records have been submitted into evidence. what WE have seen is just a log of calls/texts for both martin and the defendant. i am thinking at this point though that the jury has access to the actual content now and i’ll tell you why.

          mantei’s argument against acquittal yesterday — he quoted the defendant’s crazy ass term paper for some criminal justice class in which his first statement was basically “i wanna hunt bad guys”. now, this paper was not read out loud during evidence, but we know the jury has it in their possession.

          the phone records as well as the course work records were both submitted as ‘composite evidence” and i doubt that all of it was revealed in open court. the jury however will have full access during deliberation and we do not yet know what the state will bring up given the chance during their cross exam of defense witnesses, their rebuttal case, and closing arguments.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Would love to read crazy ass’s term paper. Since he got an “A” in the course, we could see how low did the bar go.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that would be a hoot!

            as an aside, i don’t think the instructor’s friendly greeting on the stand “hey george, how’s it going?” is really that helpful. how could the response to that question be anything other than “not too good at the moment”. just my thoughts.

          • Malisha says:

            Considering Fogen’s habit of listening to his internal fantasies rather than focusing on reality, he could answer his professor: “Everything’s going fine; we’re winning; I’m goin’ out for ice cream later to celebrate.” 😆

          • KA says:

            It was awkward to me….

            Asking someone [on the stand] how they are doing in open court? It seems more of an insult to me than a greeting….

            Especially that this man was far from uneducated or inexperienced in a courtroom.

            “Hey George, how are you doing?” in a murder trial?

            Just weird and maybe not meant as a pleasantry….

          • fauxmccoy says:

            ka says

            Just weird and maybe not meant as a pleasantry….

            certainly occurred to me

          • Trained Observer says:

            Same here on that out-of-place for courtroom decorum greeting. Since when does a witness even address a murder defendant, much less to inquire on how he’s doing? Strange.

  72. Manue says:

    Once again, thank you Professor and Crane for your warm welcome and instructing me so well in the US procedures

    If your blog had not existed, I won’t have followed this trial; all places I use to go look not the same anymore, people I respected and usually shared their thought were swallowing the defense insanity, Trayvon was a thug, 6.3 ft, attacked and almost killed poor zimbo, blah blah blah… I tried to present facts but with no result and I stopped posting on those places.

    I notice that some people doesn’t care really about Trayvon or zimbo but are defending SYG law, which I find strange as it’s not a syg case.

    Well, I happily arrived here and I ‘m so glad to see the end of the trial with you all

    • disappointed says:

      Manue- Good morning and welcome. This is a great place to be. The people who defend him imo love their gun or hate people that are different than them. It is not worth arguing with them. It would be more productive to just beat your head on the floor, wall or desk. 😉

      • Dee says:

        I am a license carrier, but that doesn’t say I bought my gun and carry to be a wanta be cop either. This gun is for the protection of my space not the neighborhood. Because I not like Zimmerman knows that I am not a cop. And couldn’t act like one either. However, if they come into my space, then that will be another matter altogether. Nevertheless, for someone to follow someone then claim self-defense is ridicules. Anyone can provoke someone then kill them and say that it was self-defenses.

        Tryvon died to open our eyes to this law and who it was made to kill off. And it is our children and us, if we do not watch out. Even if you are a licensed carrier, if they shoot you first they will turn the idea that you had a gun on you, even if you are licensed to carry. We had to all be careful out here the tables are turned toward us not them.

        We had better opened up our eyes and see what and who this law was and was truly made for. The KKK is not in sheets anymore they are in uniforms and in seats of authority, and they are those that are defending this acts on our children.

    • Malisha says:

      They’re not really defending the SYG law; they’re defending what the SYG law represents: the “new age” notion that everybody is in a state of siege and that folks with legal permits to carry guns (already mediated by the government and most prominent in states where there is a history of serious civil rights violations) have a right to shoot folks they believe are threatening their way of life, using ANYTHING as an excuse. This is leading our society farther and farther into a state of “homeland hostility” that will be the fertile soil for the growth of neofeudalism. The most guns will be in the hands of the paid defenders of corporate turf.

      • sadlyyes says:

        also if you have “property” jewelry trinkets tee vees,that you can use deadly force to stop an unarmed robber…..Americans protecting their crap.When i lived in Fl.i was robbed (not home) by a few juveniles,yes they took thousands of dollars of jewelry…would i kill them? people are so attatched to their crap!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Elegantly said, Malisha.

      • Manue says:

        Thank you Malisha, I perfectly understand what you say and I find it very scary

      • Unabogie says:

        I can’t tell you how many times Zimmerman’s defenders have said they see nothing wrong with armed patrols around your neighborhood. When I think of that, it just seems crazy to me. I don’t even have a gun in my home, but I can sort of understand people who keep one there. I do not, CANNOT, comprehend someone who feels the need to carry one everywhere they go, especially if they live in one of these stupid gated communities where you’re safer in your home than you are in traffic. It’s paranoid nuttery, and leads directly to senseless deaths like Trayvon’s, and yet to this day they think Zimmerman’s patrols were perfectly normal behavior.

        As the kids say, I’m SMDH.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Welcome Manue and all of our international readers!

      We are really REACHING OUT to each other as we advocate for Trayvon.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Chorus from this song:

        Reach out and touch
        Somebody’s hand
        Make this world a better place
        If you can
        Reach out and touch
        Somebody’s hand
        Make this world a better place
        If you can

    • sadlyyes says:

      BonJour Manue, i would love to live in Pau,it is my dream

    • fauxmccoy says:

      welcome aboard Manue! yes, you have found a good spot to land.

      • Puck says:

        faux, i’m under seige in the will he won’t he testify thread – help!!!!

        • cielo62 says:

          Puck- LOL! Calling the best for reinforcements!


          • Puck says:

            OK we can’t discuss this further…

          • fauxmccoy says:

            cielo says

            Puck- LOL! Calling the best for reinforcements

            heh heh heh .. thanks, cielo 🙂

          • Puck says:

            I have an affinity for all of the HP refugees here; we fought in the fetid trenches of the zidiots until finally we realized we were only making ourselves feel worse and wasting far too much time. How long did I go back and forth last summer with DMiller1234 about what “atraumatic” meant? He denied it meant without trauma! He copypasted (and pasted, and pasted, and pasted) some dictionary definition that included the vague meaning of atraumatic medical treatment. And round and round in circles with pciorlandosales (I know she has since seen the light, but still)… and tmlvette and mat/mattt/matttt rugar.

            I suppose it was good experience for me to have direct interaction with people who simply cannot accept facts and instead go with their own ‘facts,’ since I was still researching my Tea Party paper, which dealt in part with this. I got an insight as to their thought processes and the styles and rhetoric of their rationaization.

            But no one’s fonts makes me happier to see than fauxmccoy’s. 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck- hope you didn’t take my kidding seriously. I also greatly admire faux McCoy. Which us why I understood you calling on her. I don’t have the patience to deal with the willfully ignorant. I applaud your efforts to chip a little hole in their granite blocks is stupidity.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Puck says:

            No, I got it completely, don’t worry. I was just freaking out a bit while undergoing a series of ad hominem attacks, including on my academic integrity, which I take very seriously.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck- I understand completely. You can insult many things about me but don’t you DARE attack my integrity, professionally or personally. (Not meaning you but you as in anyone) At that point it becomes a matter of honor and self definition. You stand strong!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i can say it was an absolute relief to walk away and realize that those arguments and specific posters were not worthy of my time. i only regret i did not leave sooner.

            i think the similarity in our chosen higher learning cause a bonding of sorts. we see things in pretty similar lights and then we automatically begin to study the crowd in which we are surrounded.

            i feel honored and blessed to be the recipient of your very kind remarks 🙂

          • Puck says:

            The phenomenon of complete migration to the newest thread kind provides us with a place to hide out and chat. It’s kind of fun.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yes indeedy! you do have my email, don’t you? of course, i’ll happily continue chatting right here.

          • Puck says:

            Sure… I honestly didn’t think anyone could possibly take my super duper offensive post that way. Most who commented got it, except two and then a third who shall remain nameless. But they really piled on and got nasty even as I explained at least twice what I meant. It was a bit hysterical, I have to say. To the first person’s credit, it didn’t get into ad hominem attacks. Those came later. I mean, really, I try and reassure people that the state’s not done yet and to have faith, and this happens. Just not a nice thing to wake up to on a Sunday morning.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            I mean, really, I try and reassure people that the state’s not done yet and to have faith, and this happens.

            that is my thought as well.

            i also have to remind myself that my race/ethnicity has never been a barrier to equal access of the protection of the law and the justice system. i honestly do not know how it feels to be black and experiencing this — i can empathize, but never really know.

            there were a few days when the overwhelming negativity here and statements such as ‘the fix is in’, ‘the state is throwing the case’, and ‘the judge is in on it too’ were disheartening for anyone who had followed all of the pre-trial hearings as us long timers had.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          yeah sweetie, i know. i’m doing my best to stay out of it i am sorry to say. too many people that i like and respect and so many different views. i cannot imagine that anything i have to say would help other than to quote rodney king ‘can’t we all just get along?’

          i wish i could do more for you, you have made your point clear enough to me and i do not doubt your motives.

          • Puck says:

            ok i understand…. i guess i mostly just wanted to get your attention so i could hear something nice from you… you’re my blog crush 😉

          • fauxmccoy says:

            ooooh baby! 🙂

            look, there is much here that i cannot tolerate reading, if i were to make a list, i would probably offend everybody somehow. my best advice is to walk away because it is not worth pursuing.

          • Puck says:

            I had, with nef, until groans unloaded on me. I think it’s over.

  73. Cercando Luce says:

    Good morning, everyone! This photo is our private joke, but it’s a fact in the USA:

    • Trained Observer says:

      Ha! CAC, the new khaki, blends with everything!

    • Michael Stewart says:

      Too funny!

    • bettykath says:

      This article is scary. Sounds like this county in Oregon is a perfect place for the libertarians and the bat-sh!t crazy republicans in Congress and now running a few states.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        It is. It’s one thing for citizens to help out in a kindergarten, quite another to let them deputize themselves. (I think those who do are supporting the defendant in Florida vs. George Zimmerman.)

        • aussie says:

          If they’re down to ONE deputy for 83,000 people, I think it’s ok to deputise themselves. Just knowing they’re around would put some criminals off.

      • Malisha says:

        Parts of Oregon are just like the deep South in their weird way. It’s best to stay in Portland. But I like the fact that it says “CAC” on the patrol car.

        “Creepy Ass Cracker” Patrols!

        Remember, Oregon was the home of “Smoke ’em, don’t choke ’em.”

    • cielo62 says:

      This was interesting but when I saw the sign on the car door, I thought it had been altered!! It says CAC! Automatically I went to Crazy Assed Crackers! Sounds interesting except that without a jail, does it matter if criminals are caught?

  74. sadlyyes says:

    is anybody reminded of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD? written in the deep south in th 20s. has justice matured from those awful days?Can there be justice for Trayvon in Fl.? i hope so,the whole world is watching

    • Trained Observer says:

      The reclusive Harper Lee is getting up in years, but if ever there were inspiration for a sequel, this likely would be it.

    • IMBack says:

      I think about that scene where Harper Lee kills his childs killer in the courthouse because Tracey is visible hurt and angry and listening to this crap from GZs lawyers probably adds to that fire

  75. RastaGirl says:

    Good morning everyone, I love this blog! Glad to be here to share opinions and get good and true information… All of you have great insight… Nice to meet you all..

  76. sadlyyes says:

    i finally saw Manteis rebutal to SMARMY O MARA,and decided the state definately reads this blog.He used my argument that was gnawing at my guts…The Hannity interview where foagy goes on teevee and LIES with a smile to an international audience of MILLIONS that he knew nothing of use Serinos term,he is a pathological liar,and sociopath,and as that young lawyer said,CANNOT be believed about anything.

    • Rachael says:

      there’s only two people who knew what happened that night. One is dead, the other is liar!

      Made me want to get up and cheer.

      • sadlyyes says:

        he was magnificent Rachel!i believe anybody can understand that logic.And Mr. Guy.The police were called and on the way…i go back to my next GNAWING question….why did fogen pull the trigger,when he knew it was an UN armed BOY? like Guy said in opening…because he WANTED too….i believe that is the case!
        stalking,and reckless disregard for life followed by a litany of LIES

        • Malisha says:

          I feel like doing a needlepoint, very old fashioned looking. Saying:

          “One is dead and the other is a liar.”

          For Mantei’s wall.

          • sadlyyes says:

            go for it…he protects the memory of Tray

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            I bet he would really like that.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Racer –

            Do you think Racerrod and his boys can come up with a good ole’ Country Western tune, “One is Dead and the other is a Liar”?
            I hear that as the perfect refrain (and applicable to a lot of situations in life).

            This’ll sweep the nation.

            Your needlepoint on the cover will make it go platinum!

            “… ’cause one is Dead, and the other is a liar!”

          • Trained Observer says:

            Needle point with that motto — what a gift! (Yet admittedly quite time-consuming.)

          • KA says:

            I that his phrase “where is the blood?” was also quite good. They should say that much more often…

        • ladystclaire says:

          Everything Fogen did that night, shows us a person with a depraved mind and, he does not deserve the right to live among a law abiding society.

        • aussie says:

          He wanted to eliminate the only witness to HIS criminal stalking and unlawful detention (actually, in law, kidnapping) of the unarmed boy. .

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachel, when he said that, I did cheer. This guy is really good!

  77. FactsFirst says:

    ***WAVES*** Hey lurkers!!! It’s trully a pleasure to have you all.. I’ve been lurking for a little over a year, and every now and then I’ll get the courage to comment.. Fred and Crane are the BEST HOSTS on the blogosphere… They keep 110% around these parts and do not allow cyber bullying… You’re SAFE here… Welcome to OUR spot!

    • Ditto to what FF said. I normally lurk also. If you all caught it in OM’s ramblings yesterday he said the defense would probably end it’s case by Thursday. That leads me to believe defense will not put G on the stand.

      I cannot remember what all was said in opening statements except that they will call a medical witness (from Texas?) to testify that all the bumps (remember Osterman says there was a fist sized bump on his head?). Thats what the defense stated in opening. I say BS! IMO because my eyesight is 20/20 and I’ve worked too many years in a large ER trauma center to not be able to see a lump the size of Osterman’s fist…..sheesh

      • cielo62 says:

        hinkster~ From TEXAS? Great. Another black eye for Texas…

        • William Walton says:

          cielo62, do not worry, it will probably be Dr. Red Duke, trauma specialist. I live in Cleburne, Texas and knew an anethiseologist who completed his residency at Parkland along with Duke. Thought Duke was a joke.

          • IMBack says:

            Hi William Walton, Im in Dallas, Texas is the Texas guy who will be testifing in Dallas and do you know what he could possibly say about the autopsy to help the defense?

      • ladystclaire says:

        That jellyfish even lied on NATIONAL TV, about Fogen having of all things, A CONCUSSION. Why lie and embellish the events of that night, if your BFF is so innocent?

        Fogen did NOT have any neuro injuries and, he didn’t suffer a broken nose. I hope this jury will use their common sense and convict Fogen for his murdering an innocent child.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @hinkster4ever, Osterman didn’t see it either!

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        They will look “real retarded” putting on a doctor to testify to the knots on Zimmerman’s head when Zimmerman never bothered to go to a doctor and his PA didn’t even bother to order an xray.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Welcome lurkers.

      It is definitely safe to post here. You can make up a posting name and then sign in just at the beginning with your email address.

      Frederick Leatherman is a very honorable man and he will
      ALWAYS protect your email and keep it safe.

      • Dee says:

        Nothing is protected once it is in the Internet world. Don’t believe when anyone says that they can protect them because if they want them. They can get anything you have written in the open will come to light. This is why they came up with Facebook, Twitter and all of these media sites. Because they know that people will talk this is how they caught most of their people they are looking for. Because eventually they will talk to someone about what they have done.

  78. diary73 says:

    Good morning everyone .

    • Trained Observer says:

      diary — Have you filed your report yet on your day in the courtroom? If so, I’ll look back on previous threads.

      • diary73 says:

        Yes, TO. A couple times. Here is the skinny:

        I was unable the see the jury most of the day due to the evidence displays that were obstructing our view. Later I was able to see only the top row.

        A blond lady was taking lots of notes and seemed to lean in on most of the testimony. A 50 something lady, kind of overweight, seemed to be sick because her nose was very red. Occasionally she would it back and rest her head on her hand.

        Most of them kind of collectively sighed when West babbled on, with the lady who appeared to be sick lolling her eyes. All sat up and took notice when the revelation about GZ’s blood and the mixture of his and Trayvon’s blood being on Trayvon’s under sweatshirt surfaced.

        I was able to tell Sybrina that all of us from the Frederick Leatherman Law Blog sent our love. She was very appreciative.

        I did not have a clear view of GZ’s face because of where I sat, which was one row behind and two people over from Sybrina’s right shoulder.

        I love the way the young prosecutor would look and smile at Trayvon’s parents when he got a good dig in. He is a very smart and passionate attorney.

        On a personal note… although I am very partial to deep dark chocolate typically, Attorney Guy is ridiculously hot!!!!!! *fans self*

        • Trained Observer says:

          Thank you so much, diary. Very insightful. Am glad you were able to convey our concerns and support to Sybrina. Also regret the one juror seems ill, but then West would be enough to push anyone over the edge into a full-blown blue flu. Again, thanks for report.

        • Nef05 says:

          Thanks again for the report and passing on our love and support to Sybrina. As far as dark chocolate, Prof. Carter (sorry, can’t help but correlate the two) did not seem to be damaging to the prosecution as the TV commentators appeared to think (IMO). I thought that everything he said about self defense applied to Trayvon, more than it applied to fogen.

          IMO – the only way the answers he gave could be detrimental to the prosecution is if they are only and solely viewed through the prism that fogen told the absolute truth, and we all know that isn’t the case. In any other view, those statements applied to Trayvon.

          So thanks again, and also thanks for reminding me of Ct. Carter. He is a pleasant memory, in the midst of the garbage spewed by the defense and the TV commentators. And yes – Guy is certainly right up there, near the top, on the “hotness” scale.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Thanks diary! I am so glad you were able to say that to Sybrina Fulton.

          Now I realize that I replied to a comment meant for you. I posted on Trent’s youtube to tell Sybrina that we support her. Then someone posted here thanking me for telling Sybrina that under one of Trent’s videos posted on this blog. I thought it was weird because there was no guarantee that Trent was going to get in. I know think it was directed towards you. My apologies.

        • KA says:

          Thank you for speaking with Sybrina. She was the best witness that has been called. She is strong and certain. MOM could get nowhere with her yesterday. She is fighting for her baby and she knows what needed to be done.

          She is in my prayers and thoughts daily.

      • diary73 says:

        You guys are very welcome. I wish I could have gone another day, but my purpose for being in Orlando is to support my daughter and her acting/modeling pursuits. She is attending the AMTC Shine event. I so hope she gets picked up be an agent. *proud mama*

    • sadlyyes says:

      yes,forgot to say Good Morning truth seekers!

  79. Rachael says:

    Well I don’t think it would be very smart for him to testify and up until now I didn’t think you would but after he was called a liar in open court I have the feeling he’s going to want to get up there to address this himself and I guess prove what a liar he really is because there’s no way he can talk himself out of this.

    • IMBack says:

      I wishing Mantei would have said “lying pig” instead or “lying creepy as cracker”

      • IMBack says:

        I wonder if the state can refer to him as a Creepy Ass Cracker in closing arguments. They should say those words at least 10times in closing arguments.

        • Malisha says:

          I disagree, respectfully. In closing argument they should appear aggressive and indignant but refrain from any overtly bloodthirsty or insulting words. They want to make the jurors identify with the person speaking, and to do that, they want to give an impression of: “You’re just like me; you are noble and you will do a noble job in there; you are beyond any criticism; you are perfect and honorable and righteous and THAT is why you will vote for conviction.” That’s the message I would want to hear if I were a juror.

          • IMBack says:

            respectfully noted…makes sense but it would kind of force deedees tesimony in their heads. I think the rebuttal case will be stronger than the first presentation by the state. Im banking on the rebuttal.

          • diary73 says:

            They can certainly use the word “creepy.”

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Thank you for “In closing argument they should appear aggressive and indignant but refrain from any overtly bloodthirsty or insulting words. They want to make the jurors identify with the person speaking, and to do that, they want to give an impression of: “You’re just like me; you are noble and you will do a noble job in there; you are beyond any criticism; you are perfect and honorable and righteous and THAT is why you will vote for conviction.”

            Malisha, that’s brilliant, as you have been over the past year.

            You have the correct strategy. The jury has seen the lying side of this contest. In contrast, the prosecution should present a firm, noble argument. I would not change one word of Mantei’s statement and am looking forward to the prosecution’s wrapping up this trial on the high road.

            Judge Nelson is very much the champion of the jurors, and they see this. As sequestration stretches on, more and more they will perceive that they are making a sacrifice. They want this nobility recognized! They feel Judge Nelson sees this – they will want the prosecution to acknowledge it also.

            Jury duty, with or without sequestration, is heavy duty (I’ve served both ways), and the biggest challenge is turning around the recalcitrant, stupid, obtuse or prejudiced juror (that job always seemed to be handed to me). There may be one or possibly two hard cases on this jury. We don’t want the prosecution to make “the turnaround” more difficult for this jury to accomplish. Staying on the high road – as exhibited by Mantei’s presentation and your strategy – is just the right note.

            The prosecution should extend the aura of being “on team” with the jury, and giving it support: with information, with lucid arguments. If there is prejudice or opposition to truth and reality among any jurors, the prosecution should not do anything to calcify this attitude. Keep the situation on the jury malleable, so the intelligent jurors can win them over.

            Let nobility and professionalism prevail at all times.

            The tragedy of Trayvon’s death is apparent to all. The threat to public safety of George Zimmerman on the loose rings loud and clear.

            This jury will meet its responsibility.

            I expect the verdict well within a week from closing arguments.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          I think they should remind the jurors that Zimmerman likely looked like a Nazi skinhead to Martin, , and he certainly acted like one.

          • ImBack! says:

            Yep…he looked like a member of the skinheads. Then at the first. Bail hearing he looked like a scary skinhead and after that, he looked like a Hispanic choir boy

      • Dee says:

        No, it is good that he used the exact words, because you want to present Trayvon in the way, he was feeling during that time. And he was feeling this way about this creepy ass cracker that keeps following him. If you attempt to change his words, you tend to make him seem to look better than he was. Trayvon was trying to impress anyone he was saying it the way he has seen it.

        • Dee says:

          I meant to say Trayvon was not trying to impress anyone, he was saying it the way he felt was happening when, Zimmerman was following him. No matter how this girl sound, she was telling the truth. And that’s what we and hopefully will take away from it. If they are not already in Zimmerman camp and was never going to convict him anyway it went.

  80. good morning…..all……like this site… the opinions although i would like to know why the defense gave a press conference…..and will it harm their case…….

    • O’mara has used the media to spread lies since the beginning. It does not harm it’s case. He gets to spread his lies and it goes out over the media to the world. He has really defamed Trayvon beyond any moral ethnicity. That is why he is so despicable in our minds. Nothing he says is worth listening to. And, no, he doesn’t hurt his case….he is the mouth that won’t stop. IMO

      Good morning all!

      • Rachael says:

        I can’t believe the jury will like the way he questioned Sybrina. OMG that was awful.

        • ic2fools says:

          He didn’t ask fogen mother if she hoped it was her sons’ actions that caused a childs death

          All those dirty tactics they used to impeach State and State witness will blow duh-fense completely apart.

          The State will effectively impeach Duh-fense and Duh-witness for them.

          I don’t see what exactly O’Ass and Ice Cream will present as a defense to fogen following in car and on foot.

          • cielo62 says:

            LOVE your new avatar! Good morning, BTW. 🙂

          • ic2fools says:

            Thank you mi cielo62! Top of the morn to you too.

          • ic2fools says:

            You know we believe fogen is Guilty, I west my case, hehehehehee!

          • blushedbrown says:


          • cielo62 says:

            Maybe they are going to go with the “concerned NW guy whose duty and patriotism got the better of him” approach. Of course that “I have no regrets” on Hannity blows THAT out of the water, but really, what else do they have?

          • ic2fools says:

            Yes that interview with hannity is fogens’ only statement made without out police and with an attorney. I can see how the jury can view that as fogens’ testimony. Its’ the only record of fogen speaking about his beliefs of the murder.

            ‘I would not have done anything differently’ and grinning to boot – translates to NO REMORSE.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @hinkster4ever, you are spot on in your acessment of O’Dirtbag. He smears, slander and tries his best to besmirch this CHILD VICTIM’S CHARACTER and, he had the nerve to call himself extending his sympathy to this VICTIM’S MOTHER. What this slimy slug won’t do, remains to be seen.

        He can not clean up or sanatize his client’s going on national TV, and telling the world that he has no remorse for KILLING A CHILD! He is also a media whore who never met a camera that he didn’t like. He even went so far as to lie about the prosecution giving interview’s to the press.

        He is IMO the lowest of the bottom rung on the ladder of COMMON SENSE. In other words, he has none!

    • crazy1946 says:

      Because the jury did not hear the press conference, it will not harm the case in their eyes (at this point of the trial), it will help the case in the eyes of the ones it was aimed at (the Conservative Tree House aka the Tree Sewer) but in those people not involved in their brand of racism it will only cement the dislike for the defense tactics with a higher grade of cement.. MOM suffers from a severe case of foot in mouth disease….

      • sadlyyes says:

        he sat next to foagy on hannitys program,and let him lie his ass off,not to smart in my estimation

        • crazy1946 says:

          MOM is a puppet! The Fogdoit has him on strings and dancing in the wind…..

        • pat deadder says:

          since omara let him go on Hannity I also think fogen will take the stand because of his ego and omara will have someone to blame if fogen is convicted.

        • Dee says:

          He also knew about the money. Because Zimmerman has a phone call that was taped saying he got in contact with MOM to give him some money. They should get MOM for perjury because he lied in court saying he didn’t’ know about any money, and that was a lie. This came out of Zimmerman own mouth he knew about the money and was getting a motion of it as well.

      • aussie says:

        I am not totally sure O”Mara WAS sitting beside him at the Hannity interview.

        The whole thing was done green screen. Fake. They were not in that room, which was a fake background. O”Mara looks strangely flattened, sort of not three dimensional. And way too still to be natural, no reaction when GZ says outrageous things. I think they got edited into that fake room separately.

        There was also a lot of very fast cutting between Hannity and GZ, and some very fast cutting off of sentences, too, so what he said may NOT have been in the exact order we saw it in, or certainly could have had other stuff in between.

        Specifically the “God’s Plan” statement sounds Listen again. It sounds like the FIRST sentence of an answer. If it was following on from the previous sentence, it would start a bit lower tone and after a LONGER PAUSE.

        Of course if you’re in any controversy and get offered an interview, it’s a good idea to demand the right to see the final version before it’s aired. Which you could do if you’re in huge demand and they’re begging you to appear. Of course if you are doing the begging and they’re accommodating you, you can’t make as many demands.

        Hannity swore blind he didn’t pay GZ a single cent for the interview, too. That doesn’t mean he didn’t maybe pay MOM directly. He’s certainly acting like he’s sold his soul to someone.

    • cielo62 says:

      Good question, especially since earlier in the day he had said he was NOT going to have a press conference.

      • Girlp says:

        I only watch a small part of the press conference and found this to be offensive, O’Mara is as full of himself as Zimmerman is.

    • Rachael says:

      won’t affect them a bit. the jury didn’t see it.

    • Rachael says:

      Won’t affect his case at all. The jury didn’t hear it.

    • Woow! says:

      The defense team is stupid 🙂

  81. Sophia33 says:


    • Sophia33 says:

      Welcome to all of the lurkers.

    • crazy1946 says:


      • cielo62 says:

        GREETINGS to our international students! Thank you for joining our quest for justice, not just for Trayvon, but for ALL innocent kids to be free from fear from a roving armed maniac. Hoodies Up!

        • looneydoone says:

          Hola from the *trailer park* of Latin America 😉

          on a side note
          MiSombra snuck a mouse into the house, and lost it. The mouse had hidden itself in our bedding…thought I was going to have a stroke when awakened at 3am by it running across my legs !!!
          Oh the joys of having been adopted by a feral cat !!!!

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            When I lived in San Francisco, we shared a room with a rat named Anastasia , someone had drawn a castle around her hole in the wall, everything was fine until she decided to store cantaloupe seeds in our sleeping bags (it was the ’60’s) at night.we soon moved on to a bigger room.

          • cielo62 says:

            looneydoone~ LOL! It was just a little snack for later! LUCKILY my indoor feral has become much more friendly.     BTW~ what do you mean the *trailer park* of Latin America? ALL parts of Latin America are beautiful!


          • looneydoone says:

            I live in Mexico lindo…”the trailer park of Latin America” is something I read somewhere, and laugh off.
            MiSombra must love us a lot, every day she brings home her catch. If she can sneak in unseen, she heads directly for the master wing sleeping area with it. Couple of weeks ago, I came home to find a trail of feathers and blood with the carcass of a pigeon the same size as her on the bedroom floor!!! She’s totalamente salvaje, sleeps on the bed, but one year after adopting us she still will not allow anyone to pick her up

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          I cosign.

    • shyloh says:

      Just in case you didn’t notice. It’s Sat. The 6th. You might want to correct the date! 🙂

      I don’t know. But this case is troubling me. I believe George is guilty as hell. But the Pros. Seems to be missing a lot of the points with their own witnesses. Oh well. I am more of a lurker these days. I should stick to that haha.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am not worried.

        I think it can be compared to a sewing project. First, you cut out ALL of the pieces, and THEN you sew them together.

        • shyloh says:

          What about the Dr. That did the autopsy? He was a joke to me unless I was missing something. After being shot in the heart and not dying till about 1 to 10 min? Then he changes his story? I am not sure that’s a good thing. But that’s just me.

          • hotheadpaisen says:

            I was distressed that no medical expert testified that it would be physiologically impossible for someone with holes blown through heart and lung and with both lungs collapsed, to be able to calmly sit up, raise hands in surrender, and speak without giving any indication that he was injured.

          • bettykath says:

            Shyloh, The ME did testify that Trayvon wouldn’t have been able to move or talk. He started out saying that Travyon wouldn’t have lived as long as 10 minutes, the change was to 10 minutes as the longest based on a case that he had since he did Trayvon’s autopsy.

          • MDH says:

            Being alive in a medical sense means there is enough function left to keep the brain stem heart link going. The trauma that the bullet caused allowed T to say clinically alive while laying on the ground in shock due to the massive loss of blood pressure. Once he bled out into his chest cavity, the brain stem died and the heart stopped. Remaining in a standing position or getting up would have required pressure in his circulatory system that was destroyed by the gun shot. IOW, GZ’s “you got me” story is patently false.

            Sure, the defense can counter with stories about people shot in the heart who kept on going. In those cases, the damage, although catastrophic allowed for enough pressure. An autopsy or surgery (sometimes people live in rare cases) is what determines the extent of the damage.

            Instant death wipes out the nerve signal from the brain stem to the heart.

          • cielo62 says:

            MDH~ I would think the “clinically alive” would only matter if there were plans to harvest organs. The ME did indeed mention that voluntary movement was impossible.

          • Malisha says:

            I actually think the ME saying he had changed his mind was GOOD for his credibility. Fantastic, in fact. He first thought that it would only be possible for a person to live from 1 to 3 minutes after that kind of injury, based on his knowledge of medicine and prior experience. THEN he had a case he described as a “REAL self-defense case” [which was thrilling!] that made him change his mind and then he realized it would be somehow possible to live for up to 10 minutes with that kind of grievous injury. This means that he is thorough, that he is very honest, that he is able to use actual data to form conclusions rather than working backwards from belief to fact (as the defense wanted all witnesses to do) and that he was telling the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. Yes, the man’s delivery was less than “Broadway” and his attitude showed through, but frankly, nothing he said was really grounds for attack and viewed dispassionately after the fact, I think he “done good.” I will wait a few weeks after conviction before sending him flowers and chocolates.

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            He kept trying to tell them why he changed his mind, nobody would listen to him, he is also from a different culture and he may be very protective of his rights as an American citizen, mom & ICM abuse people’s rights, I think he wasn’t having it, he knows CAC is GUILTY & he probably also was strongly affected by the autopsy he was trying to tell them about. A real self defense case, he said.

          • lsimon3321 says:

            ME stressed me out also with his responses. I especially hated him changing his mind about the residual marijuana. The defense is all over that likening it to undiluted alcohol or some other stronger drug. Related comment: It is very unfortunate that Florida does not drug/alcohol test the shooter/person claiming self-defense but tests the dead person. Even in Wild Wild West Texas, everybody involved in a shooting is drug/alcohol tested.

        • IMBack says:

          Im thinking maybe Trayvon said, “You shot me” not “you got me”. The state’s case was a little disappointing because they didn’t talk about the bullet trajectory,or that GZ, never got an address and aas to the address thing ib Skellators openning statement he did’t say GZ got out the car to get an address, he said basically to keep an eye on Trayvon but the state gave the jury room to doubt either story imo. I can’t see murder 2 but Manslaughter by what the state presented.

          • cielo62 says:

            As usual you refuse to look at the “ill will” and depraved “mind” sections that will indeed make this Murder 2. That stuff you mentioned has NOTHING to do with the difference between manslaughter and murder.

          • Malisha says:

            I don’t think he said “you shot me” OR “you got me.” That’s all where the rest of the Fogennaration was: in his fevered imagination. Damn Fogen for a liar and the real story was that the scream was the last thing uttered by Trayvon Martin unless some small, weak sounds of pain and suffering issued from his throat as he died.

            I was also disappointed in the State’s case but then, last night, looked at ALL the things they should have said but omitted, and figured something out: In every single case, of something they omitted, by easy one-step conclusion, or by two- or at most three-step deduction, the following theorem would become apparent:

            “The SPD deliberately covered up a murder.” For purposes of my explanation, I will call this sentence “the FORBIDDEN SENTENCE” or, for short, “FORS.”


            1. Anything from ballistics that proves murder (over self-defense) would lead to the FORS, because they had the bullet and the shell casing by 3/1/2012.

            2. Anything showing that the story FIRST told by Fogen was obviously false would lead to the FORS because they had the autopsy (no bruised knuckles, no defensive wounds on Fogen) by 3/1/2012.

            3. Anything that the FDLE uncovered that was available on 3/1/2012 would lead to the FORS because they came to their conclusions using the exact same methods and evidence that the SPD had on 3/1/2012.

            4. The fact that Serino told witnesses that (a) Fogen screamed for help and (b) Fogen was on the bottom would lead to FORS.

            5. The fact that Jayne S was kept from giving her evidence to the SPD would obviously lead to the FORS.

            6. The recording of the conversation between Tim Smith and Fogen in the squad car, and the mistakes made at the station house, and the failure to preserve evidence from Fogen himself, would all lead to the FORS so the actual evidence that WAS not preserved would lead to the FORS in a two-step.

            The list just goes on and on and on. The more securely the prosecution tied up the murder case, the worse it would look for the SPD, and the feds still have an open case on the SPD. So the compromise, in my unhappily educated guess, is that Corey agreed IN THE BEGINNING to GET Fogen but to LEAVE SPD alone and exonerate THEM. To placate everyone, they have installed a Black Police Chief and sent the bad boys to their corners (with their pensions intact of course) and in case the plan fails and they end up with acquittal (which I believe is extremely unlikely), they have made sure BDLR will not suffer personal negative consequences by making sure he publicly has his reward before the tarnishment occurs.

            There is more dishonesty in government than can even be guessed at. But I have had such a long history of honing my perspicacity with observations of government corruption that I think I’m like a wine critic in that regard. This is an old vintage with a new bottle.

            Still I comfort myself with the realization that it is very VERY likely that Fogen will go to prison for a long time.

          • Sophia33 says:

            I don’t think Trayvon said anything after being shot. I think he was in tremendous pain with a pneumothorax that was instant and couldn’t breath.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Thank you, Malisha. Certainly explains Serino’s demeanor and Singleton’s surprising hostility. They know Fogen is cooked, but they’re worried about what’s to come post conviction.

            Like Sophia33, I don’t believe Trayvon spoke in a complete sentence after the shot. Even groans likely would have been involuntary.

          • Dee says:

            Exactly, what he said ”you shot me? As to ask him why? What did he do to deserve this. He was only coming back from the store. So it is sure that he said” you shot me? Not you got me. That was just one of the many lies he put together for his stand your ground case.

          • Girlp says:

            @ Malisha, I agree, BLDR has to work with other PD as well, it is difficult when you have to work around the blue wall better to let the FED’s handle this.

          • KateW says:

            Mantei did touch on the bullet trajectory in his argument against acquittal. I was quite concerned about them before but Mantei touch on almost everything. I say almost because he didn’t say much yet about the kid not having blood on his hands or sleeves. I am not sure about the delivery but the summary should draw a clear picture.

          • aussie says:

            Trayvon did not say “you shot me”.

            He said

            It’s all there on the tape.

            Witness 3 days ago said trajectory was direct straight front to back. Can’t remember exact time, date or witness name but it was said. Contact shot.

            They very neatly showed he was a wannabe cop/sheriff/marshal/prosecutor/judge plus knew the SYG law in enough detail to tell a good(ish) story of self defence.

            They also showed how MANY stories he told and how they all differed from each other and from reality.

            Proof that he continued to follow? the location of the body. QED.

          • Dennis says:

            The bullet trajectory can’t prove who was the aggressor and I don’t think it can prove who was on top and who was on bottom. Even if Trayvon was on top at one point, that doesn’t automatically make him the aggressor anyways. Fogen probably shot him as he tried to break free and run. He couldn’t just let this supposed “asshole” get away, in his own words.

            The prosecution set out to prove that Fogen hunted Trayvon down, instead of returning to his car like he claims. This is about proving that Fogen was the aggressor by exposing his lies (consciousness of guilt) and the forensics confirms his lies. If Fogen was the aggressor, his self-defense claim goes out the window because it would be Trayvon standing his ground.

          • @Malisha…Why would the state (BDLR & Corey) want to exonerate the SPD? Unless it’s because if the SPD is officially accused of a cover-up, they could be sued big time by Trayvon’s parents. Why is the state letting the SPD off the hook???

      • Danita says:

        Hello Shyloh im with you, pros didnt even call Mary Crutcher she was very passionate about what she saw. Im beginning to wonder whats going on because how did BDLR let the medical examiner use his notes and didnt bother to find out he had them. just sayin lookin sketchy…..

      • Surrealdreamer says:

        What I found most disturbing yesterday and this is just me was when JN made the ME give over his private notes to the defense. All the defense did was pick through his private notes and try to make accusations towards the prosecution. I was glad that JN found the prosecution without fault but none the less I could not believe that he was forced to hand over his private notes.

        I have followed this case since before the murderer was arrested and have not missed a day of this trial, I have seen many witnesses say do you mind if I refer to my notes. I guess this is notice to all other witnesses, dont bring private notes with you to testify, which is sad.

        The defense is so unprofessional its pathetic. I truly hope that their is justice in this case for Trayvon and his family.

        • diary73 says:

          From what I understand, Judge Nelson had no choice because the ME was reading his answers from his nots rather than consulting them. It is akin to a prepared statement. Anything that is read verbatim must be shared with both sets of counsel.

        • IMBack says:

          Mantei said that “ill will” in this case was proven by the shot alone. By Forgen shooting Trayvon through the heart, is that enough to legally statisfy “ill will”? I hope Mantei does the closing arguments.

          • parrot says:

            Z had to put the muzzle of the gun under the button. Was Z afraid the shrapnel would wound him? He carefully aimed to miss both his hand and the button, and the trajectory shows the high degree of accuracy he was able to achieve.

            This in itself shows he was IN CONTROL and therefore did not fear for his life. It also shows Z wanted to be sure Trayvon would die.

            If that doesn’t show a “depraved mind” and “ill will” (above and beyond his characterization of a person he didn’t even know), then I don’t know what it would take to show it to you.

          • disappointed says:

            When you pull a gun on someone you are showing ill will otherwise why pull a gun. By putting a bullet in Trayvon’s heart that is ill will because there is no coming back from a shot to the heart with a hollow point. That is how the ill will comes into play. Pointing a gun at someone is not a “good” will.

          • Puck says:

            Shooting someone in the heart or the head means you intend to kill them, not incapacitate them in order to, for example, get them to stop slamming your head into concrete (if that were happening, which it wasnt, of course). If GZ had indeed been able to magically unholster his gun, why not shoot Trayvon in the gut, or the leg, or somewhere less likely to lead to death that would nonetheless cause the “attacker” enough pain to make him get off and stop his assault?

            Mantei went halfway there in his argument yesterday, which many consider a bare-bones preview of the state’s closing. It will come back. And yes, I hope he does the closing, for reasons I discussed in yesterday evening’s summary thread. Essentially, Mantei’s a teacher and an effective one (I know, since I’ve taught university courses). If he closes, he’ll calmly and methodically, yet with the authority of one who has the facts and knows the truth, “teach” the jury what really happened backed up by the evidence.

          • mrsdoubtfire says:


            Greetings from Scotland

          • Mary says:

            there are 44 seconds of existential screams of terror, showing that trayvon was in desperate fear, and its corollary, powerlessness.

            clearly zimmerman was in power, and for 44 seconds, he could have just covered trayvon with his gun if he felt he was a dangerous thug- after all the police were already on their way.

            those 44 seconds tell the whole story and display the depraved indifference to human life. because zimmerman, the man with the gun, the man in power, had 44 seconds to make a choice, and he chose to shoot.

            and that’s depraved indifference to human life.

            that is why this case is not manslaughter.

            anyone who says the state overreached in framing this as murder 2 is wrong.

          • Malisha says:

            Ill will was found in:

            “F*cking punks”
            “These a55holes, they always get away”
            “He looks like he’s up to no good.”

            Ill Will is found in “the suspect” in Fogen’s written statement.

            Depraved mind is found in a cheerful discussion of the hollowpoint bullet and “No don’t call 911 I already called them [untrue; he called NEN!]” as Trayvon lay dying, in pain and suffering.

          • SearchingMind says:

            @ IMBack

            Re: depraved mind

            “An Act is one imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life if it is an act (or a series of acts) which:

            (1) a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another,

            (2) is done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent, and

            (3) is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.”

            “Depraved mind” has three totally different meanings: (a) medical/psychiatric-, (b) moral and (c) legal meanings. What is morally depraved is not necessarily legally depraved. A human being who commits a legally depraved offence is not clinically depraved. A clinically “depraved” human being cannot commit murder2 because of inability to know right and wrong. From the legal point of view, depravity of the mind we infer from a specific criminal act. It is not found independent of the act or in any prior relationship between the actor and the decedent, and even less in any “generalized hatred” that the actor allegedly harbors. I liked soo much how Mantei chided O’Mara on this point. The act of pointing a gun fully loaded with dum dum bullets at someone’s heart, pulling the trigger and shattering that heart, while not clinically depraved, is legally, and done from ill-will (i.e. wishing/wanting certain death for the victim) with depraved indifference to human life (i.e. causing certain, but unnecessary death). Absent self-defense, you have murder2.

            Yesterday, someone said to me during an argument the following: “these days, if you suspect that a black youth with a what appears to be a track record of being a burglar might be a burglar is pretty much the same as sticking your girlfriend’s head on a pole in the living room. By the standards of 2012, it’s kind of a toss-up which is more depraved, isn’t it?” Immediately I exclaimed: “wao, there you go, you just nailed it!”. “Nailed what?” he asked me. I sat back and asked him: “ok, so you apparently think that “sticking your girlfriend’s head on a pole in the living room” is depraved?” “Absolutely!” he answered with firmness in his voice. “So also is sticking a gun to another person’s heart, pulling the trigger and shattering that heart. That is also depraved”. He went silent and did not argue anymore.

        • pat deadder says:

          Surreal did you notice how the medical examiner was smiling when they took his notes.I truly believe his notes were written in Chinese.I have a Mandarin client and he says since the doctor came to US when 29 he would write in Chinese.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hopefully neither last nor least. 😀

    • Xena says:

      Sorry for my very late greeting. Welcome to all the newbies, and “hey” to the oldies, and the goodies.

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