Welcome to liveblogging day 9 Zimmerman trial (morning session)

Friday, July 5, 2013

Good morning:

Court will resume this morning at 8:30 am EDT.

The prosecution probably will rest is case today.

I am expecting the Assistant Medical Examiner, Dr. Bao, who did the autopsy. Expect graphic and gruesome photos. If you aren’t into that, you may want to cover your screen and listen.

Also expecting the State to call a wind-up witness, possibly FDLE Detective Gilbreath to connect all the dots with charts, diagrams and timelines.

Sybrina Fulton may also testify to identify Trayvon’s voice. If she does, expect Don West to do his best to impeach her credibility by accusing her of being a bad parent and bringing up the lawsuit against the HOA.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.


See you in court.


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1,362 Responses to Welcome to liveblogging day 9 Zimmerman trial (morning session)

  1. gwynne says:

    mom doesn’t come off sincere, he’s wasting time here, trying to make his hired help seem legit.

  2. colin black says:

    So anyone seen o manic presser ?

  3. colin black says:

    Why would Fogen be screaming for his life in the home?? These people are liars

    Maybe he caught sight of his own reflection..

  4. can someone please explain to me why the defense is doing a press conference…….

    • colin black says:

      Perks of the trade

      Its called mugging it up for the cameras.
      An alsp propa ganger an advertiseing .

      Lile yesterday M O M done a half hour audition of his knowlage of pressure needed on various pistols.

      Nothing to do with a kal tech or his cllients defence.

      But it ws letting the criminals know.

      Hey if ever you need a lawere for finger power required to make a gun go bang.

      Then In your man.

  5. colin black says:

    I missed Sabrina what was She like?

    • @Lonnie Starr:

      A portrait of grace, intelligence and quiet dignity. She answered each stupid question put to her by MOM and even managed to remain civil to MOM, after this man deliberately lied on her son, I do not know if I would have remained so civil to him. and I could see that she was trying to not get irritated by his stupid questions.

      Sybrina explained that she has been employed at the same company for 24 years (she works for the city I believe,(like I do) but has held several positions. She is on a leave of absence at this time. She has her BA degree. Her older son is a Senior in College and he is also very intelligent, articulate and handsome. When asked about his father, he stated that Tracy is the only father that he has known. This young man is 22 yrs. old and a Senior in college. Fogen-28 years old. 8 years in college living off of Pell Grants and being rejected by several police depts, due to his being a freak! Fogen, never completed college and was on academic probation. Fogen was staring daggers at Sybrina’a older son. The family is a middle class, educated family who love one another and they are close.

  6. MichelleO says:

    God bless the Fulton/Martin family.

  7. Nellie Nell says:

    This entire family have robotic tendencies.

  8. colin black says:

    Gladice as an ear witness o m g

    Desprate much

    Cant wait for cross

    As it will be She who gets cross

    • @colin black:

      Mama Z is a bold faced liar! She knows that is not her son screaming! She said he sounded in anguish. The anguish was the kid and she knows it! How do these people live with themselves. The jury will not believe her or the uncle! LIES! I hate all of them! The DA needed to bring up the letter Mama Z wrote to the Martin family! It was terrible! Why would Fogen be screaming for his life in the home?? These people are liars!

  9. boyd says:

    The defense did not look happy

  10. colin black says:

    fooggagge never screamed
    foggagge cursed an qoueted biblical quotes

    foggagge taunted teased terrified an murdered a CHILD an enjoyed it an basked in the spotlight of imfamy

    Just as the saying goes in the foggagge family tree incest all right as long as you keep it in the Family.
    But after a while its realatively boreing.

  11. colin black says:

    Circmstanial Defence?

    No evidence that he followed???

    Are you following him


    Not mastermind murderer

    A predater of fear circumstance an insanity.

  12. Nellie Nell says:

    OMG, When is MOM going to wrap this up! He is saying a lot of nothing and repeating himself. Your client is a cold blooded murderer! So sick of them already.

    • @colin black:

      You took the words right our of my mouth! I am incredulous at what MOM is saying!! The DA was masterful! I could see Fogen giving evil looks when he was speaking. An acquittal? Is he mad?? When is MOM going to STHU already?? He is as bad as West! I am sick of them all, and JN will deny the motion which i just heard BTW! YEAHHHHH!

  13. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Good afternoon everyone. I missed watching the trial this morning. Just turned on TV and MOM is arguing for acquittal. Already I think MOM has lost his mind. What happened this morning? Did DA do good?

  14. ay2z says:

    MOM argues about the ‘hatred’ point.

    Remember what Serino asked GZ in his interview? “You have any problems with black people?”

    GZ: “No-ho-ho-ho’

    Serino responds, you don’t seem to have problems with many people…. then he adds

    “…except criminals of course.”

    Hatred of criminals, a pattern that would put Trayvon into the ‘group’ he hated because of the pattern of behaviour from August 6, 2011 building through his calls, up until Trayvon’s sighting broke the proverbial camels back.

    We also know fogen is capable, (but not the jury’s info at this time) of violence against a woman, a girlfriend, and had demonstrated an act against his own mother, which clearly shows malice, in cutting off her electicity and locking out the box so she had no service.

  15. ay2z says:

    West just forgot about the dragging, bringing of fogen by Trayvon, of the fight from the T to the place where the shot took place, that fogen dropped his flashlight he had in his hand when he was hit, WHERE whatever began, began.

    Not by the T, we have the tactical flashlight dropped where the body was found.

  16. Tzar says:

    Dance MOM, DANCE I said
    you can’t talk for the whole hour and you will have to start the case today

    • ay2z says:

      He has to have his cone break before they begin their case. The state will have a response to this too, won’t they?

  17. Fin Gomez ‏@finnygo

    Bao excused. Asst State Attorney Bernie De La Rionda asks for break. Jury smiles at him.

  18. Stephanie Wash :

    Juror e40 looks at autopsy photo with pencil to mouth. Juror e54 has hand over chin & mouth. Sybrina does not look at photos. Tracy does.

  19. Dr. Bao: in a “real” self defense case 3 wks ago, a person with the same gunshot wound to the heart lived 10 minutes.


    • ay2z says:

      Now we understand the significance to Dr. Bao of the autopsy 3 weeks ago. Documentation of the timeline by recordings and time of death, unusual, what Dr. Bao called ‘rare’ opportunity for his field to get these documented observations. He also suggested this is an important case beyond their office, maybe world wide.

  20. ay2z says:

    Hold on, west is trying to say you can tell range by width of stipling, but West if forgetting the affect of two layers of sweatshirts, which by common sense, means the spray of hot gasses, molton lead etc, that follow the bullet out of the muzzle (as described by firearms tech), can be affected by the thicknesses of the fabric materials, including cotton and synthetics possibly, which can spread the stippling, not simply distance through ‘air’ only.

  21. Sleuth says:

    In Mr. Guy’s opening statement, he used the words “zero contact”. I was wondering where he got that information because the ME’s report in the media dump said intermediate.

    But when Ms. Siewert testified, she use the word “contact”. She said the gun was pressed against the shirt, and used the distance between the clothing and the muzzle of the gun.

    • ay2z says:

      I think this pathologist explained this since you posted your question. Intermediate is the pathologists’s definition if the range is not indeterminate and if there is not ‘contact with skin’, as in this case, there was clothing between the gun muzzle and the skin.

      For the firearms tech, the determination was made by firing the actual ammunition used in the gun and collected that night into evidence as in the clip with the gun, and the actual fabric was used in the testing, by taking samples from the back area of the shirt(s).

      Two different things, one on ‘definition’ and the other based on measurements via testing. Contact for the firearms expert, is contact that was on the clothing, not pushed into it, in this case as she observed, but in contact.

      The medical examiner has no duty to examine the poor clothing for it’s cause of death or injury.

      • ay2z says:

        (mearurements and observations of the effect on the fabric and affect by the presence of fabric, via testing for firearms tech)

        • Sleuth says:

          Thanks ay2z. I think I’ve got it now.

          Pathologist: Visual of body, wound, and clothes

          Firearm Tech: Actual ammo and clothing

          Am I getting close? 🙂

  22. Sleuth says:

    Go on wit his badself!

    The Wiester: “Are you saying Trayvon was able to move his body after he was shot in his heart?

    Dr. Bao: “There is only one person in this room who knows”. He looked right over at the confessed murderer!

  23. Mike says:

    West getting served up buy ME

  24. Rachael says:

    The not knowing exact time of abrasions goes for GZ too.

    • ay2z says:

      Rachael, one can argue easily, that ‘abberations’ have been an issue with this defendant for some time.


    • Tzar says:


    • ay2z says:


      And even fogen can’t sue the cartoonist, the editor or publisher of this drawing, because although the ‘truck’ is grey, that is a night scene, plus there is no back of cab shape of a Honda Ridgeline, plus the logo oval shape is definitely not a ‘Honda’ thing.

      This brings me to what I was thinking earlier today about what fogen’s own statements put together, along with the z-line about the injustice of the ‘arrest’ and the ‘injustice’ of letting the justice system work.

      (in the bond hearing, fogen testified, and was asked about his career plans

      He wanted to be a Judge, ‘to judge’
      He wanted to become a prosecutor. ‘to prosecute’

      On February 26, 2012 in the early evening hours, he did ‘judge’, he did ‘prosecute’, he did find ‘guilty’ of suspicions and found himself ‘innocent’ of wrong doing.

      In the following weeks and months, his defense has helped him claim wrong doing by the ‘real’ justice system, it’s advocates, and even it’s ‘We the People’ (aka what he calls the ‘masses’). He wanted to be allowed to be his own judge and his own ‘jury’.

      Anyone believe this defendant really understands or cares about the ‘justice system’? Or was he more interested in running the show, beginning with his sighting of Trayvon that night, and taking the law into his own hands, vigilante mind, and loaded ready-to-fire unsafetied, gun?

      • ay2z says:

        He judged, prosecuted, and sentenced Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

        He judged himself innocent, prosecuted the justice system, or tried to, by claiming no right for anyone to hold him to account by participation in the justice system, and tried to become his own jury to decide his own culpability as zero.

  25. ay2z says:

    Short fingernails, no ;bagging’ of hands, scrapings failed to collect or lost what they collected…. defense seems to be going there.

    No ‘clippings’ on the list.

    But Bao says chief of pathology how to process, clippings or just scrapings poligy. That’s why no clippings if it was policy.

    Speculation of why no clippings or why scrapings done, by defense.

  26. I thought he was going to sneak in the picture of someone holding a gun

  27. deetruth says:

    Apparently, the content of the notes is not a problem. I just hope the Dr. focuses on the testimony, not his “schooling” the court on what is opinion, fact, memory, etc.

  28. Dr. Bao has effectively limited the scope of what the Defense is going to be able to ask him…they now understand not to ask him any questions based on his memory…nor will they be able to claim that he has “changed his mind”…He did a very good job…please don’t be too frustrated by his style…West will try something slick…but it won’t be effective…I’ve been living in Hong Kong for 3 years now…Chinese people are very straight forward and unwavering…Good night…Enjoy!

    • elle says:

      Thank you for your insight. Medical professionals work very hard at dealing in absolutes. They usually cannot, but they try to remove uncertainty, always.

  29. deetruth says:

    Holly Molly, many of the the City of Sanford and the Seminole County employee witnesses are the worst. They are all over the place. Poor Bernie.

  30. groans says:

    Thank heavens no jury hearing this THC talk. But, still, this guy is a loose-lipped, loose canon.

    West wants to get evidence for civil wrongful death defense – Bao’s notes and changed THC opinion – is my guess.

  31. deetruth says:

    All of that to say, “MJ could have no affect or some affect”. DUH!

  32. ay2z says:

    The court’s “Prior ruling on toxicology in state’s motion in Limine… STANDS”.

    Toxicology is out.

  33. ay2z says:

    Dr. Bao does not understand that he doesn’t play legal expert, he has to give his information to the state if he changes something from the deposition?


  34. groans says:

    ClickOrlando says they’re still at sidebar.
    NBC is well into a Richardson hearing!

  35. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Richardson hearing.

  36. Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

    I thought Toxicology was banned from court?

  37. Let me try this again. The above link was a blunder by me and will be removed. Let’s see if this link works:


  38. groans says:

    I thought no THC evidence allowed!!

    • Yes, that is what we are saying as well.

      BTW, one minute or ten minutes doesn’t matter.

      Is the jury in the room now?

      • groans says:

        Caught later that this is a Richardson hearing.

        I agree, not relevant to criminal case. I think West has wrongful death damages in mind, but this is not the time for that.

  39. Tzar says:

    Bao is an awful witness, he spends devaluing his own opinion instead of just stating it. He is doing the defense’s job for them.

  40. whonoze says:

    YESS! Dr. Bao just played the retarded card!

  41. ay2z says:

    Hope the jury is resting up and relaxed until they are called. Could be a long afternoon where they get to exercise their legs a lot.

  42. smokeegyrl says:

    The defense is trying to find some way of to throw this trial… a mistrial of some sort… I know they are… That is why they say West is their secret weapon… He is trying to find a way to make them mistrial it.

  43. disappointed says:

    I have a bad feeling about all this shit today. I trust that a select few want Justice and the rest could careless. If he walks the people in Florida bet to keep their kids in at all times. This fool will think this is his license to continue on his violent path.

  44. My Forehead Tho says:

    New post up

  45. smokeegyrl says:

    Wth is going on that Bernie took an oath on something… Bernie is pissed on something..

  46. thejbmission says:

    I think Dr. Bao is a very proud and intelligent doctor. For all we know, he may have been a neurosurgeon in China but his credits weren’t accepted in America. I’ve seen this before. That being said, he may feel inferior due to language barriers when he’s on the stand and perhaps been bested before by American attorneys and that’s why he wanted to be prepared for this high profile case. I hope it’s not a big deal. The Talking Heads seem to think it is.

  47. chi1224 says:

    Why is Bernie being put under oath??!!!!

  48. ay2z says:

    There must be some personal comments to himself, in those notes that Dr. Bao made, that he made for himself perhaps, as reminders, or underlining, for example, that could be fought over as relevant, or to the pathologists state of mind or intent?

    • ay2z says:

      there ‘might be’, but since Dr. Bao believed those were his prep notes, not his report and since he obviously beleived they were ‘his’ use and only his use, not his ‘testimony’, he could have assumed his ‘thoughts’ added in to notes were just that, innocent notations.

  49. Very sorry we are a bit late. Had to tend to errands and motorcycle chain. Anxious to see what is going on, and Fred may post a new thread, because nested comments can get lengthy.

  50. Woow! says:

    I have not been able to watch the trail at all today. Anything interesting with Dr. Bao? What is the sidebar for?

  51. chi1224 says:

    fltv saying Bernie is at the bench swearing to something for the judge… what the hell is going on??

  52. Tzar says:

    Did she just swear bernie in for something?

  53. Puck says:

    Did Bernie have to take an oath before JN? They raised their right hands.

  54. shenaye says:

    Hello all. I am a fan of this blog, however I never post. I just wanted to say that whether dr b used his personal notes or not, the facts are still the same. There’s really no way to dispute that. Right?

  55. Dave says:

    Can we have a new thread please? This one is taking infernally long to refresh.

  56. Why is BDLR raising his right hand at sidebar?

  57. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Give it up West. gz is going down:

  58. Stormwatch says:

    Sounds plausible. I am still of the opinion that the defendant was holding the gun with one hand, which was his weaker hand and the gun kick backed and hit him in the face making the rectangular cut above the upper lip and below the nose and the two identical sized pinholes at the tip of his nose. Don West mentioned in his opening statement that his client’s gun “had a ton of recoil.” I’m surprised that’s all we have heard about recoil thus far. When West mentioned it, I thought he knew the state was going to go there and was trying to take the wind out of their sails.

  59. chi1224 says:

    back on again… West moving slow again, up at another sidebar.

  60. Rachael says:

    So was this all just a West of time?

  61. smokeegyrl says:

    Again, I had time to think about this and I really do believe that Fogen had his gun already out. When Fogen approached Trayvon Martin, he already had his gun in his hand to his side. Trayvon Martin said Oh shit… he turned around said What you following me for he asked… Fogen responded with What are you doing around here… grabbed Trayvon Martin… while Travyon Martin screaming get off of me get off me not necessarily on top of him but Fogen having a hold onto him… like a wrestler does when trying to get his opponent to the ground… and all this time Trayvon Martin is screaming… that is when Fogen shot him… and that is when Trayvon Martin fell to his knees and I believe that Trayvon Martin’s as he is falling down is when his head hit Fogen’s nose such as a head butt to the face… and threw George onto the concrete pavement one time and that’s how Trayvon Martin landed face down with hands underneath him. Fogen panicked that is why one of the witnesses saw him walking back n forth to the pet recepticle like 3 times with his hand on his head to figuring what he needed to say…

  62. chi1224 says:

    Okay I went back and listened to Anthony Gorgone on cross- the sweatshirts when he recieved them were packaged in a bio-hazard plastic bag that wasn’t sealed with tape, but tied in a knot. It came to him that way from the trace evidence section. That biohazard plastic bag was inside a brown paper bag. The outer sweatshirt had an odor and was damp/wet.

    West is going to cling to this like flies on shit.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Eh, let him go on forever. If the bagging ruined the DNA, it would have ruined all of it, not some of it selectively.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Dr. Bao gave them some more shit to stir by talking about this in the first place. NOT HIS AREA. And BDLR should have objected for that reason as well. Bao is a doctor, not a lawyer, his first mistake is thinking he can outsmart someone in their element. West cannot tell Bao how to do an autopsy, Bao cannot out-lawyer a lawyer. This is where being an arrogant witness can hurt the state, its not about Dr. Bao.

      • Malisha says:

        Beating does not have to be disproven because injuries were “very insignificant”

        Even if there was DNA on Trayvon Martin, that would not support self-defense in view of the fact that Fogen was not seriously injured.

        This is a red herring being chased by a cone-head.

    • ay2z says:

      Fact is, there was DNA successfully obtained where expected, more in some areas and less or unidentifiable in others. Doesn’t mean that it was degraded from original by mould.

      In fact, the cotton in the shirts could be degraded by mould as well. That didn’t happen, no holes instead of blood stains.

      DNA can’t be that fragile if there were a certain level of results, can’t throw everything out on some speculation of mildew smell. The test results are what counts now.

    • deetruth says:

      Gorgone said the three of them ( the guy he got the shirts from and the person he passed them on to, did their “things” over a matter of hours, not days. I’m wondering if the shirts were first placed the shirts in plastic after he finished, just before passing them on to Gorgone, in which case they would have been in plastic for only a short period of time, and if so, does it make a difference?

      Perhaps they need to call “Tech/Handler No. 1” to the stand.

  63. Nef05 says:

    Good afternoon everyone. Been a long morning. Looking forward to catching up. Hear that the ME is not real fond of West, from the glimpses I got of CNN, while sitting in the waiting room.

  64. Rachael says:

    This thread is getting too long again.

  65. ada4750 says:

    I don’t know what is the problem if somebody prepare personal notes.

    Does not every witness make mental notes? He got them on paper that’s all.

    Having said that, his behavior is extremely surprising from an experiment expert.

    • It will depend on what is on the notes. We will know soon enough.

    • gbrbsb says:

      And don’t they take videos like in the pics and tv series for a shooting ? If not does anyone else think they should ?

      • I guess a witness is supposed to be recounting what he witnessed.
        If the witness has amnesia then he is not really a… well witness.
        If all he remembers is that he wrote a report then this is all he can do.
        If he relies on notes then it is important to understand what is in in case those notes are note from the witness.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Not so tchoupi, at least not here in the UK where, iirc, witnesses are allowed notes, diaries, etc. if they need to recall, sometimes many years after the event. That said, I wondered why they don’t video tape autopsies of homicides at least. Wikipedia gave me the answer, i.e.:

          Most states require the state medical examiner to complete an autopsy report, and many mandate that the autopsy be videotaped.

          So Florida unfortunately is not one of those states.

    • ada4750 says:

      It may also because his English is not fluent.

  66. Two sides to a story says:

    I noticed that the defense tried to say Jahvarus gave impeached testimony – I’m still listening, doesn’t sound like they were successful. A55wipes.

  67. disappointed says:

    This crap the defense is pulling with the dna and hand bagging is pissing me off. DNA use to not be used, bags over hands used to not be used. This is all smoke and mirrors to blame blame blame but not to blame the person who put the bullet in Trayvon’s heart.

    The button. What is up with the buttlon? Could it have a palm print or Fogen’s fingerprints? Did he grab and hold onto as he fired a shot into Trayvon’s chest?

    • Puck says:

      The bulletholes were underneath the button, indicating the hoodie and sweatshirt might have been pulled by GZ, or that he made a point to move the button out of the way to shoot.

  68. ay2z says:

    Thing is, if this was going to be a high profile case known by Dr. Bao from the moment he arrived for autopsy, cameras flashing at his arrival, as if a high profile person was killed and the press were in hot pursuit, he could have been aware that this was a memorable case. This was not what happened. Ordinary John Doe autopsy, he did his routine, made his report, followed protocols and that was it. Report was the basis of any future recall necessary.

  69. thejbmission says:

    As for Bao and his notes, lets give credit where credit is due. Shouldn’t BDLR known it was against court rules to read from notes? I’m not happy with the State at this moment.

  70. whonoze says:

    Judge Debra Nelson to the Defendant as they left for recess:

    “George, got any extra Temazepam you can give me. I’m having an anxiety attack!”

  71. i am moved to type this. And thank you LLMP for your video above. To me one thing I take away from Sybrina’s presence on the stand is this:

    She is to be remembered in infamy as another American woman did. Jackie Kennedy. Just as Jackie stood for a nation so did Sybrina.

    Sybrina’s regal composure in containing her gut wrenching agony; her overwhelming dignity and grace to speak for all Americans and most of all…. every parent, is so beyond words.

    God bless this woman and mother. She has so much to teach us all about unconditional love and dignity.

    (Typed through tears)

  72. This is from an Orlando Sentinel reporter that has been in court everyday. Her tweets are quick & balanced. @renestutzman: These notes may have nothing to do w/ #Trayvon’s autopsy. They may be about how the mind cannot remember things, but a huge distraction

    • ks says:

      There you go. Nothing material. Just a reminder to himself.

    • Ms.X says:

      What makes you think Rene Stutzman is balanced? She has been for gz from the start. Lawrence O’Donnell reamed her on national tv for reporting her opinion, favorable to gz, as fact in her newspaper. Shes a yellow journalist-full of shit.

    • LucaBella says:

      Rene stutzman is responsible for revealing that Trayvon was suspended from school for having an empty marijuana bag. She was leaked the info by the Sanford PD, and claimed that she reported it because there was very little known at the time about Trayvon. She is pro-Fogen, and reported his version about the murder as fact, in many instances. There is nothing balanced about that squinty, man-faced ass.

      • cielo62 says:

        LucaBella- well said! UNbalanced would be a better description.


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          To be fair, iirc, she didn’t start out that way, so maybe she was “turned” by her editor and/or “the powers that be” at the paper. After all, there probably isn’t that great a market for her skills in that area, so she’s got to toe the line. After all, soon this case will be over and she will still need employment. Unlike the big people [Rush, Hannity etc] the little people are terribly insecure and must put food on the family table.

          She probably feels “hey, if I don’t eat they’ll still get their story out, so what’s in a crusade?”

  73. whonoze says:

    Knock knock.
    Who’s there?
    Shiping who?
    You have to be shiping me!

  74. chi1224 says:

    Question please for anyone who knows…. did the DNA expert testify he took wet clothing out of a plastic bag? Does anyone remember what he said in that regard?

    • Sleuth says:

      If you’re referring to Anthony Gorgone, yes. He said the clothing was first handled by Mr. Goosman, then Ms. Siewert, then himself. He said this would have occurred in a matter of a couple of hours, not days or weeks.

      • chi1224 says:

        Thank you, but who put the sweatshirts in the bio-hazard plastic bag that then went inside the paper bag? (I just listened to Gorgone’s testimony again, and posted about it…. I hope this isn’t going to be a problem.

        • Ms.X says:

          Not only that, but Trayvon was murdered on a sunday evening & they got the clothing on Monday. Its not like it was in the plastice bag for a week. It seems like it was less than 24 hrs.

    • deetruth says:

      Yes, he said the shirts were in plastic bags, still wet or damp, and smelled.

  75. whonoze says:

    Knock knock.
    Who’s there?
    Bao who?
    Bao to my authoritah, cone-lick man!

  76. deetruth says:

    It seems to me that Dr. Bao is very, very, very, very very concerned about and focused on the distinctions between and the importance of fact and first hand knowledge vs. opinion and hearsay, and about ‘explaining things to/teaching the jury” – almost to a fault. I hope he doesn’t continue to go overboard/talk too much, and I hope Bernie can effectively handle the “wet clothes in the plastic bag/integrity of the evidence” issue.

    Unfortunately, it seems to me that two of the witnesses (the ME and Rachel) who had some of the most compelling factual testimony have what some perceive to be “presentation/style/attitude” issues. I hope the jurors can objectively deal with the importance of “substance over form”.

    However, I remain hopeful that justice will be served.

  77. whonoze says:

    I’m sure the CTH thinks Dr. Bao’s notes WERE written by someone else: and you know who!

  78. Two sides to a story says:

    My mom just brought out my dad’s wallet that he last used before he died. She’d taken everything else out of it, but he had a battered, over fifty-year-old pic of me inside. *tears*

    I just listened to Sybrina’s testimony for the first time. She was powerful and dignified – just what I expected.

  79. amsterdam1234 says:

    American culture is very invasive. Americans have a very different attitude to personal privacy. I know when I first moved to the US, I was shocked about the kind of questions people would ask me.

    My grandfather was Chinese. It is interesting how you inherit certain social norms. The mixed Dutch/ Chinese part of my family, would feel uncomfortable with the Dutch invasiveness and their lack of respect for personal privacy. But compared to American culture, Dutch culture is very private.

    I think what we are watching here is dr. Bao feeling West is treating him without respect. For Chinese people that is loss of face.
    He didn’t remember the autopsy, he knows he is dealing with a high profile case, so he probably spend hours preparing for this case.
    I am sure he wanted his English to be as clear as possible, that is probably why he has written down a narrative of what he was going to testify to.

    This must be so embarrassing to him. Close to being told to undress on national tv.

    • gwynne says:

      Please know I don’t have any information-this is just speculation. I think Dr. B is a religious man. He takes the oath very seriously. I hope Bernie and team are able to get the point across that he’s careful because he wants to be accurate.

      • groans says:


      • amsterdam1234 says:

        He takes his job very seriously. I think he wrote a narrative to not make mistakes while speaking. His active English may not be as good as he wishes it to be, especially while speaking on live tv. I think his notes will show prepared responses, not because of his lack of knowledge in his profession but because of his lack of fluency in the English language.

        This must be so embarrassing for him.

    • groans says:

      We are super-nosey. And then we are super-judgmental about what our super-nosiness reveals.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I really dislike that about our American culture.

        • amsterdam1234 says:

          Well you get used to it, and then you find out that it is not really about sharing intimate details, but you just have to give the right answers.
          Did you notice Dr. Bao mentioning he came here to pursuit the American dream?

          When I first moved to the US and someone whom I just met would ask me, wat my reasons were for coming to the US, I would be a bit shocked why some stranger would ask me such a personal question. In the beginning I would attempt to formulate what my reasons were, but I learned quite fast, that the people who asked me were not really interested in a personal answer, they just wanted me to confirm their own belief why people move to the US. So after a while you just learn to give the right answer, which in this case is ” to pursuit the American dream”.

          American social interactions, are very superficial. Maybe because of that, not much deviance is allowed. Don’t get me wrong, I am not talking about American people as individuals. As individuals they are no different than any other nationality, good or bad.

      • deetruth says:

        I agree.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with your assessment, amsterdam.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        again…..West’s elitism and inability to relate to those of backgrounds other than his own.

        Shades of his treatment of Rachel.

    • YQ says:

      I agree, and now if it wasn’t already clear before today, then it is perfectly clear today. The force that is going against this whole case and trial has a lot to do with cultural differences and one’s inability to explain or to accept things as they are. Everything from Trayvon, to Selene, to Rachel, and now Shiping Bao. Of course the defense is playing stupid and playing into the hands of the jurors who mostly appear to look like them. The reason why they are confident and that we’re supposed to be afraid, is that they don’t care if it’s 5 guilty verdicts vs 1 innocent, that would still exonerate Zimmerman. Only one other person needs to see it their way if they can’t understand the cultural differences and unfortunately some Americans here also don’t understand.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You nailed it, YQ.

      • YQ says:

        That might explain why it’s easy for some of those Americans to believe that Trayvon circled back around to hit Zimmerman with his bag of snacks still in hand. It’s not easy for them to believe what the minute details are showing. Zimmerman wanted to catch the kid and there is no way on earth that it’s him screaming.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Good assessment. Americans seem to think everyone behaves as they do. Many Americans live in a cultural bubble more so than whites in other parts of the world.

    • I personally think that Dr. Bao lacks self-confidence. He needs to prepare before doing anything. What I see is panic under the stress of the testimony.

      I don’t buy the cultural explanation since I worked with none-Chinese people lacking self-confidence and the other way I worked with very assertive Chinese individuals too.

      One point I want to make, people lacking confidence in technical environments/jobs tend to be very procedural. So, I would tend to believe that he follows the procedures. Unfortunately, when they communicate, they can be very defensive and then give the impression that the hide something wrong.

      I wrote a post during direct with BLDR was I expressed my concern about Dr. Bao volunteering to much talking and therefore being an easy target for West. West did not miss it. He made him more nervous and he simply panicked.

      • YQ says:

        I agree, but what I mean by cultural, generally speaking “it is what it is” with the Chinese and some of them don’t deal with speculation because it’s not fact. Sure that Bao was nervous but he probably deals with people not being able to understand him without asking him a few times. I just think that he wanted to be clear and concise so that his testimony isn’t misunderstood. Much of what he was saying up until that point appeared to be what could have been said without notes but obviously he doesn’t recall very well. I find that to be realistic.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I recognize loss of face. That is one of the biggest differences between Asian culture and Western culture. Of course there are individual differences and you may be right that he is just insecure, but him protesting about his notes, was about loss of face.

  80. Stormwatch says:

    I liked the way Br. Bao said “Black Boy” too Sleuth. The prosecution and their witnesses need to say “The Kid” as many times as possible. Keep hammering it.

  81. ladystclaire says:

    I thought W6 recanted the MMA raining down blows on Fogen by Trayvon. the talking head idiots on MSNBC keep saying this as if he is still sticking to that story.

    • Eric says:

      That’s because for some strange reason the state didn’t bring it up.

      • willisnewton says:

        The state wanted W6’s most damning testimony to be seen byt the jury as something THEY called for. W6 is to them, at present, a witness the prosecution called. He said he did NOT see or hear any blows being struck at any time. He says he DID see hands going down.

        Were the state to dig into his seeming “evolving” testimony, they would be calling into question AT THAT TIME and in front of the jury the events they want to present – that the witness never saw and never heard blows to the defendant.

        Now, when the DEFENSE calls W6, and they may, THEN the prosecution can call into question his evolving testimony. That is because the defense will be attempting to highlight the parts favorable to the defense at that time.

        It’s a tactic to get the things that may seem favorable to the defense out in the open while the state is presenting its’ case I assume.

      • Malisha says:

        I believe their reason was to NOT have a rat to chase down THAT hole. WHO told him to say “MMA punches raining down”? My guess: Either Fogen himself, Tim Smith or Serino. Nobody wants to go there in case it was Smith or Serino.

  82. tharealkeisha says:


  83. YQ says:

    IDK what’s going on, but I can understand why Dr. Bao doesn’t remember this autospy. MEs see stuff that no one wants to remember. So part of his profession hinges on being able to shut out those horrible instances so that he can continue to function and do his job. I hope that there is nothing damaging in those notes to self.

    • MedicineBear says:

      He probably refers to the duh-fense counsel as The Bald Dick and The Rat-Faced Dick in his personal notes.

      • YQ says:

        LOL possibly so… I never testified with notes but in this case, i think it works hand-in-hand with Dr. Bao’s memory loss. Therefore he functions on his notes and that might make him more effective with his duties. I don’t think MEs want to remember every single autospy they have ever done. That would be enough to drive even a grizzly bear bezerk.

    • RobertSF says:

      He’s really not expected to remember. He’s supposed to refer to the notes he made during the autopsy. So when they ask him, for example, how tall was Trayvon Martin, he’s not supposed to say, I don’t remember, it was so long ago. He’s supposed to look at his reports and say 158 pounds.

  84. My Forehead Tho says:

    Defense will argue that it really wasn't Zimmerman who was profiling, rather it was the rain who profiled what blood to wash off of who.— Michael Skolnik (@MichaelSkolnik) July 5, 2013

  85. Sleuth says:

    I really appreciated it when Dr. Bao stated:

    1. “A black BOY”
    2. “A dead person cannot stand up”
    3. “A dead body does not continue to grow”

    All of which, are quite contrary to what the duhfense would like for the jury to believe.

    They want the jury to believe:

    1. Trayvon Benjamin Martin was a grown man
    2. He sat/stood up after being shot in the heart
    3. That he was 6’3″ and much heavier than 158lbs.

  86. Ty Flair says:

    It’s not like O’Mara and West is doing a good job,all they are doing is picking off the mistakes the State is giving them. Dam Dam Dam!

  87. groans says:

    Interesting…. The NBC feed is “ahead” of others. I’ve noticed before that the NBC stream was about 30 seconds ahead of TV coverage that my husband was watching.

    This morning, I was watching NBC … until their video started getting ahead of the audio. So I switched to ClickOrlando, and I heard about 5 minutes (maybe more?) of the same exchanges that I had already heard on the NBC feed.

    • willisnewton says:

      yes I’m watching WESH on a mobile device and noted the same thing. WESH is at least 15 secs behind NBC, which I often have running on my laptop.

      If you watch NBC and want an instant replay , switch quickly to WESH.

      Sadly WESH has talking heads filling in whenever things slow down and they often talk over Judge Nelson. They are also the usual misinformed talking head types who are doing their best but are no where near as informed as most bloggers on reputable, moderated sites.

      • groans says:

        Yes. I hate the talking heads, weather updates, etc. on the other feeds. When there’s a bench conference, I like NBC’s silence while I go about my work. When I hear sound, then I know it’s multi-tasking time again!

        But maybe NBC’s extra-short lag time is what gets their video and audio out of sync?

        (BTW, I’ve done that “instant replay” trick, too!)

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Me too. I moved to http://www.WFTV.com/s/zimmerman-livestream/ and voice and video were in sync.

    • Dave says:

      The TV stations delay the broadcast so they can edit out profanity and racial slurs.

  88. bettykath says:

    ot. My niece is teaching in China for a month. She became ill and needed a procedure and followup. She was flabbergasted. Her doctor spoke directly to her, looked her in the eye. His words were translated for her, but it was clear that he was talking to HER, not the translator. She indicated that it was the best medical experience she’s ever had (not that any of them good, but you know what I mean).

  89. ic2fools says:

    CFL Media The O’Mara Law Group informed the court they do NOT
    plan to hold a press conference after court ends today.


    retweeted by Kathy Belich WFTV

    • willisnewton says:

      they have depositions scheduled I think. Plus of course there will be material presented today most likely that they are unprepared to answer questions about. BIG questions. Questions they may NEVER be able to address well.

      • ic2fools says:

        @willisnewton well then, its’ about time management and they choose carefully.

        doubt that they will realize time spent in front of the cameras was not as important as actually working on the case itself.

        i began thinking that some of omars’ interview were for pay. leaving ice cream at the helm. thats’ a no brainer he wastes time

      • ic2fools says:


        they have depositions scheduled, yes that is correct.

        a bit late for that. however, they may need those depos when JN denies that move for acquittal.

  90. ada4750 says:

    Truly JM looked so weak. West almost took the notes by force. I mean he was very aggressive. She let that go!

    • willisnewton says:

      west has the law clearly on his side in wanting to see the notes, copy the notes and review the notes. Imagine if a witness was GIVEN notes by a third party! This is a serious issue and deserves to be handled very carefully according to the law.

      West may have a shot at a mistrial on a longshot here. I doubt it but the judge is on the spot as to how she handles this.

      • ks says:

        Mistrial? How so? These seem to be his personal notes.

        • willisnewton says:

          according to _him_ they are his personal notes. If west were able to PROVE he was given notes by a third party he’s at minimum be able to get a jury instruction to strike the testimony. On the other end of the spectrum he’d have reason to argue that the state has called a witness who was under the instruction of an outside party, possibly even the prosecution itself to testify in a manner directed by the prosecution.

          I’m not saying this is what will happen, but merely saying that this is a serious issue and the JUDGE is on the spot here.

      • gwynne says:

        I am hoping these are very basic notes, and that is all. w was foaming at the mouth to get ahold of them.

      • ada4750 says:

        Yes willisNewton, i can’t believe the this way was done. I wrote suitcase, i meant briefcase of course.

        What’s next? West will ask a witness can i see what you have in your briefcase? No It’s personal. Doesn’t matter, i look anyway.

        JN looked extremely weak. There are gone with the EM notes. I just can’t believe that,

        • Malisha says:

          I saw an attorney demand a witness’s handbag in one idiotic trial in TX; the witness handed it over and the atty. took out the woman’s check book and began to question her on every check she wrote!

  91. boyd says:

    he’s suppose to remember detail from preparation of 1 autopsy 17 months ago? ha .

    I’m sure they have procedures how to prep a body and what to do with clothes. Bernie needs to have him explain that.

    The defense lawyers seem to forget the Jurors are watching , and listening to them, .

    • RobertSF says:

      When they ask him if this or that happened, they’re not really asking if he personally remembers. He’s supposed to look at the contemporaneous notes he took and answer according to what he wrote down at the time.

      • elle says:

        They have the reports.

        • RobertSF says:

          Yes, they have the reports. But the only way to get those reports in front of the jury is through witness testimony. The lawyers can’t testify because nothing the lawyers say is evidence. That’s one of the peculiarities of our trial system.

  92. mrsdoubtfire says:

    He’s not coming across as a seasoned expert witness lol but I think the notes he is referring to are about memory and why he cant remember specific autopsies. BDLR needs to do a quick recap of the perinent stuff and get him off the stand.

  93. “Pressuring eyewitnesses to answer questions about an event, when they indicate that they do not know the answer, can result in false confabulations.” http://www.cgu.edu/PDFFiles/sbos/Pezdek_Confabulation.pdf

    • Bottom line: He is not going to let them put words in his mouth based on his memory of many months ago…I’d say if the court allows it…things will be just fine…Professor…any reason to believe this is “improper” in terms of courtroom procedure? ie. Will it cause a mistrial or anything like that?

    • ladystclaire says:

      This is exactly what the defense is trying to do. they ask the same question over in different ways, in order to confuse the witness to the point of them answering in their favor.

      • Sleuth says:

        It’s the same things they tried with Dr. Rao last week but she wasn’t having any of it.

        If you remember, just like Dr. Bao did today, she asserted on several occasions stating, “That’s your opinion, but it’s not my testimony” or something to that affect.

        They are not going to be bullied by them,

        • ay2z says:

          Dr. Rao was great. More experience in courts, I’d assume, she wasn’t having any of West’s tricks.

  94. This is what he is referring to: “Forced confabulation more strongly influences event memory if suggestions are other-generated
    than self-generated” – Layman’s terms…memory can be affected by conversation. http://www.cgu.edu/PDFFiles/sbos/Pezdek_Confabulation.pdf

  95. fauxmccoy says:

    many years ago when i owned my own word processing/transcription service in san francisco, i typed a doctoral thesis for a chinese national. he was fiercely protective of his private work, insisted on receiving a disk of the final project and watching me delete it from his hard drive. i found it peculiar, but he explained that in china he really did not ‘own’ his private work, that the government could confiscate his writings at any time, and that he was protective of it. i would submit there is a cultural thing going on here and it does not surprise me

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Thanks for that specific background.
      I have to go out in a couple of hours, so will miss several hours of testimony, but my gut is telling me that the State will not be able to rest today.

      • gwynne says:

        I’ll stay around and bite my nails. I am worried. Hope this works out better than it looks.

      • anita says:

        Thank you mccoy. Now it makes perfect sense why he’s being so protective. I hope the jury doesn’t see his actions in a neg. way. I think West knows about the cultural thing & exploited it on purpose.

    • chi1224 says:

      Thanks for that info.

    • Ms.X says:

      Thats very interesting. I’m sure if west knew that he would use the information to do what he could to make Dr. Bao uncomfortable or hurt him. smh

    • willisnewton says:

      Very on point. Hopefully a talking head somewhere will realize this as well. Imagine being of Chinese origin and coming to the USA only to have your personal notes taken away by authorities in court, and given to someone who is charged with questioning your professionalism.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Bet he expected this treatment in China but not here! I’m with him.

    • Sleuth says:

      Thanks faux for the great insight. I was so hoping his notes were written in his native tongue.

      I believe The Wiester (weasel) and O’Dirty aren’t going to gleam much from them without having to ask over and over…….”What do you mean when you write, “A dead person cannot stand up, or grow, etc.

  96. elle says:

    I am confused, and my feed keeps cutting out. Are these notes the doctor took during the autopsy? Or soon after? Because, they are confidential then.

    • bettykath says:

      These are notes he made in preparation for his testimony. Most likely after a grueling deposition by West.

  97. whonoze says:

    People are unfairly dissing Dr. Bao, not respecting the Cultural Difference of Chinese Medical Examiners.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      exactly — see my comment 2 posts below.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I was thinking it is a cultural thing as well. He may have been a witness before but, I think with his broken English, which is in no way a bad thing, most of those cases would have just tried to extract to facts from him. Seems like he uses notes and probably has used them on prior cases. Here, you have a defense who has nothing so is trying to blame possible police mishandling on his office. I’d be a little defensive too.

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • RobertSF says:

      He’s been here 20 years. This is not some herb “doctor” they found in Chinatown. He’s a state official.

      • MedicineBear says:

        Feel free to disrespect “herb ‘doctor[s]’ in Chinatown” though. It’s not like you are a “legitimate” commenter or anything.

      • elle says:

        Yes, and that is why he is getting upset. He is used to being treated with respect. My feed keeps cutting out but West was asking him questions and not allowing him to answer, correct?

      • ks says:

        C’mon now, that’s a bit much. What is it with you and this witness? It seems personal.

        • RobertSF says:

          Yes, I am a bit upset about his lack of professionalism on the stand. The prosecution has been bedeviled by poor quality witnesses. As a witness, how you present what you know is as important as what you know.

          • ks says:

            I hear what you are saying but disagree. They have not been “Law and Order” perfect but neither is the jury or the lawyers. They are real people who have provided factual information and told the truth. If you look beyond the defense’s hysterics and surface none of them have been impeached.

            The defense is left arguing about magical rain and selective bacteria eating only certain DNA.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ks- you noticed that,too ?


    • MedicineBear says:

      It’s just more of the same from the Korrupt Krypt Keepers disrespecting, demeaning, discounting of their non-white inferiors.
      Laughing while reading through his personal notes for chrissakes!

      How is this fair that his personal notes get copied and passed around? How about we get copies of the lawiars yellow pad notes and fogen’s doodles?!!!!

    • ic2fools says:

      We see how people treated Rachael, many were adamant about her cultural difference to the point of disrespect. One example the cone heads girls

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        yep…..more of the same

        • ic2fools says:

          i also noticed that duh-fense treat witnesses differently especially if there are non-white, i find them to be rude, omar gives them stern mean looks and ice cream sparky just don’t give a damn how he questions come across.

    • Tzar says:

      whonoze says:
      July 5, 2013 at 10:59 am

      People are unfairly dissing Dr. Bao, not respecting the Cultural Difference of Chinese Medical Examiners.

      fauxmccoy says:
      July 5, 2013 at 11:02 am

      exactly — see my comment 2 posts below.

      I have to respectfully disagree with the two of youz guys, Bao should be a professional AMERICAN testifier by now and should understand court decorum and what helps vs. hurts his appearance of smoothness and impartiality.

      • RobertSF says:

        Thank you! That’s what I’m saying. He’s coming across as if it’s the first time he testifies in court.

      • ay2z says:

        I’d say that depends on experience in the court system and the type of experience, this is a high profile criminal case. He is not equivalent to Dr. Lee in ‘expert experience’ of being a high priced ‘pay for testimony’ pathologist. Dr. Bao vs someone like Lee, brings objectivity. He’s not a hired gun of the defense nor of the state with built in biases towards one side or the other, nor does he profit from this.

        • Tzar says:

          I am glad you see it that way
          I had that type of analysis with Dee Dee because she is not expected to be a professional testifier but I don’t feel the same way about Bao. I hope that most see it the way you do.

      • Malisha says:

        I didn’t like that either, Tzar, and I am blaming FDLE. Prepare your witnesses, you lazy-ass crackers!

    • ay2z says:

      Yes. He is learning about his new freedoms. He wants to do only what is right.

      Has anyone seen this? Sundance Films– Chinese artist Ai Weiwei’s film “Never Sorry”

      “I don’t want the next generation to fight as I did”.

  98. Lunch break, and it looks like um…war between Ice Cream and Dr. Bao. The notes in question are not part of the original report. They are notes that Dr. Bao made personally, during many hours of research and review that he did, prior to testifying. For example, he explained that he researched, and took notes on, memory, and the types of memory. In other words, memory does not improve with time.

  99. Elizabeth says:

    When DNA expert testified he had his own things with him on the
    witness stand and they didn’t demand to see those!

  100. Noon recess until 1 pm EDT.

  101. West has opened a hole in the State;s case about wet clothing and DNA degradation that the State must close.

    They need to recall Gorgone.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      They also need to find out who packaged to send to the state later.

    • willisnewton says:

      Agree. The note about the mold smell when the bag was opened was a professional complaint that has relevance.

      However it’s clear that the plastic bag did not allow the degradation of SOME of the DNA evidence found.

      It doesn’t seem to be the fault of this witness however that a piece of evidence may have been improperly bagged.

      If the jury were to “follow” (or go in same direction) as West may be going, the idea would be that a very important piece of evidence, the hoodie, may have had GZ’s DNA on it but it degraded after being improperly handled.

      THIs is at least somewhat serious of an argument, and the judge is sitting in a tough spot.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yet, how could gz’s blood be on the lower sleeves anyway?…….it was not on Trayvon’s hands.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          And, Trayvon’s hands (and body) were covered by a plastic tarp within @20 minutes of the shooting. That would have provided protection.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      The state should have closed that yesterday. Mr. Gorgone found very few “I.can’t tell” pieces of DNA, the great majority were quite clear so this suggests little to no contamination. Furthermore, Gorgone found DNA on Martin’s sleeves but none of it was foreign to Martin. So how the hell did.the elements know to only eat up Zimmerman’s DNA? If this hole is opened in the jurors minds after the state excused their DNA witness yesterday, then again, they have no one to blame except themselves.

      • Eric says:

        Exactly! That is why I think this thing is rigged. The State hasn’t had one good moment after their opening statements that were so grand and sweeping but they haven’t proved one thing that they claimed they would. BDLR asks the bare minimal questions,then the defense wrecks havoc on cross, and then BDLR has a weak follow up. The States case isn’t weak but they don’t seem to know what to do with it.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          It’s not true that they haven’t provided what they said they would they just don’t know how to question their own witnesses and dont know how to object when the defense brings up testimony not produced during direct.

          • Ms.X says:

            And after all these years of experience, Why is that? Why, after being in a field for decades would an attorney not know how to question witnesses?

        • cielo62 says:

          Eric- surely you left your brains in your other pants. Don’t you have a treehouse to go play in?


        • Malisha says:

          They’re doing fine but they will need to recall Gorgone. The cross-examinations have been largely WORSE than useless because although they have proved nothing and have not really challenged any of the evidence, they have probably alienated most of the jurors. THAT’s dangerous.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Didn’t Gorgone talk about air drying in testimony yesterday?

      • ay2z says:

        Yes he did. And testified that he was not the one to package these items, they arrived to him this way.

        SPD processed and packaged.

  102. boyd says:

    no you can not, they are my notes dammit.

  103. whonoze says:

    Anybody think Dr. Bao will break out with a “That’s real retarded!” to one of West’s questions?

    • willisnewton says:

      he has, in essence done that already.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Rachel is only second to Sybrina in how well she held up on cross. Clearly those are the two smartest witnesses for.the State. The third is Ms. Surdyka. All of the other witnesses seemed to crumble under the heat of cross with the absolute best example of the crumbling being Selene Bahadoor. Lets hope Dr. Bao doesn’t either take first or come in a close second.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        let us not forget dr. roa, the forensic medical expert who gave west absolutely nothing, tolerated none of his bullshit and stood her ground.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          Dr. Rao was forgettable.with her fist to the face demonstrated which has allowed the defense to go from “he was nearly killed” to “okay he wasnt nearly killed he decided to kill Martin before it got worse.”

          That is a new line of defense the state’s on witness helped introduce. Its still a fail.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            BS tasha

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Have you see the pic of his head since she.got off the stand? No you have not so while she was affective in shutting the door on the severity of his injuries she opened the door to the idea tha he didn’t have to wait until it got worse once he was hit which West explored during his cross of the SYG instructor. In the closing arguments this will come up again. Not my fault that you’re missing stuff here and I dont particularly like you so stop responding to and finding a way to disagree with everything I type.

          • cielo62 says:

            Tasha- you make disagreeing with you SO EASY! What exactly has she opened up? An already debunked idea that the “next” punch would kill him? If DNA proves there was no first punch, how can a next lunch kill him? You like to play around in the weeds of the hypothetical. Trials are based on the pragmatic “what most likely happened” scenario. You are far out in left field, while meanwhile we’re playing tackle football!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Malisha says:

            The “new line of defense” = a retreat.

            The defense went from:

            Trayvon ambushed and attacked Fogen
            Trayvon sucker-punched Fogen and beat hell outa him
            Trayvon got one good punch in on Fogen
            Trayvon was GONNA punch Fogen real soon
            What if Trayvon had done something to get hisseff killed, ever think about that?

            Every single bit of evidence that has gone in has made them take another step back and retreat again.
            And they STARTED in retreat by not having a SYG hearing.

            Daddy didn’t “killit”; Daddy’s CLIENT killed a KID.

    • Trained Observer says:

      How many ways to say that in Mandarin?

    • ay2z says:

      Don’t think he recognized that ‘the American dream’ means you do lose some liberties inside a court of law, like he just learned before lunch. ‘His’ notes are really not ‘his’ notes to decide who can and can not read them.

  104. disappointed says:

    OMG what did he write that is funny? Are they going to use his notes against him now?

  105. jodiwankanobi says:

    no you can not!!! oh geez haha

  106. ada4750 says:

    Judge Nelson looks dummy in all this. This was his personnel notes.

    They have no right. It is like he wants to look in suitcase of every witness.

    • chi1224 says:

      I don’t get it either….
      Professor can you help us understand this?

      • ay2z says:

        I remember hearing of someone who witnessed some vandalism done with a vehicle to public property and the witness took the tag number down at the time, on piece of paper available at that time and place. The lawyer for this small case, happened to be an excellent criminal defense trial lawyer who would take these sorts of cases in the small community in which he was based. Not his typical case anywhere else, but if petty criminals or vandals or kids with parents wanted them to get off for bad acts, they could hire this better than average lawyer to do that.

        The witness was a friend of this lawyer. So the lawyer took advantage to casually visit and ask one simple question about the note that the witness made about the event and with that, he won his case. Simple, the witness transferred the note of the tag number from the paper used at the time to his notebook and failed to keep the original to prove without doubt, the tag recorded exactly.

        The defense has their opportunity to blow this apart. I’m betting this pathologist has never testified in any court before, and he’s offering far too much.

        Bernie should have never allowed him to bring added documentation into court, or into his testimony? Now he can’t go talk to him.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ay2z – I highly doubt what you state is true re: how harmful thus is to the prosecution. They have his reports and now they have his notes. So what?


  107. Sabrina B. says:

    They are sleazy. Sleazy. Sleazy.

  108. Gawd… Freddy Kruger delaying again.

  109. Deborah Moore says:

    Remember the song that goes…Gimme just a little more time….?

  110. RobertSF says:

    I don’t think this is proper. I believe witness testimony is supposed to be spontaneous, not read from a prepared “cheat sheet” of notes, even if the witness typed it up the night before.

    I also think Dr. Bao is being a little too pigheaded when he emphasizes that he has no memory of events but is simply going by his contemporary notes. Well, contemporary notes are a recording of one’s memories. It’s a pedantic distinction that’s not helpful.

    • chi1224 says:

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with it, he is trying to be accurate. I mean so what if he uses notes? I don’t get why it’s a big deal, but maybe I am missing something because I’m not a lawyer…..

    • Jose Padilla says:

      No, experts read from their notes all the time. You’d know this if you were a lawyer.

    • KittySP says:

      @RobertSF – you clearly seem to have bias with this witness. I don’t see state or defense getting up there asking questions “off memory”….they use personal notes!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Medical examiners use notes at trial. They don’t speak off the top of their butts.

    • elcymoo says:

      I think you’re wrong. Dr. Bao is being asked to testify about his official autopsy of Trayvon’s body over 17 months ago. Naturally, he’s going to rely on the official photos taken during that autopsy and on his report. Whatever personal notes he made recently to aid him during his testimony in court need not be any more ‘sponaneous’ than the ones the prosecution and defense attorneys frequently refer to, especially tha members of the defense team. Don West has trouble recalling questions he hasn’t even finished asking yet!

      Dr. Bao is trying to be accurate when he says that he has bo specific memory of the autopsy in question. At the time, I’m sure he considered it just one of many homicide autopsies he’d performed, and had no way of anticipating that this case would become the focus of so much controversy and national attention.

    • RobertSF says:

      Folks, my point is that these aren’t notes he prepared during the course of doing the autopsy. The notes are a cookbook of prepared answers in anticipation of certain questions. The problem with that is that he might have sat down with somebody to figure out what the best answer was for a question. That would be a form of coaching, and it’s not allowed. In any case, the judge allowed them, but both sides get to see the notes.

  111. bettykath says:

    Would serve West right if his notes were in Chinese

    • ay2z says:

      handwritten Chinese characters

    • Trained Observer says:

      At least one school in High Point, N.C has made Mandarin a requirement for Kindergarten and some elementary grades. … an option with other languages after that.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        One of my bro’s friends has a half-Korean daughter in a Cali school that teaches the kids multiple languages in kindergarten. Last I heard she was learning Spanish, Chinese and French. And picking languages up really fast at that age. In public school, we didn’t get much exposure to languages until middle school, except for a few brief forays into Spanish and French that were not consistent and interrupted by other work. Not sure what the interruptions were about. I always regretted not being able to immerse myself with a fresh young brain.

      • Ms.X says:

        Its really hard. We have it at my school too, & I took a few classes before I dropped it.

  112. This is not a good development.

    For future reference, someone needs to teach this man how to testify.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree. But he has testified before. So he should know.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      So Tzar and I were correct about what we picked up on direct.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Hopefully nothing will come of it except West and OM wasting more time.

      • ay2z says:

        I’ve got a worried feeling on this. This physician specialist has taken this case SO seriously, he’s adding complications. Simple, he doesn’t remember the specific case because he’s done many many cases before and after, and he was not expecting this one to become an international ‘event’, especially when it took him 3 seconds to know the bullet entered and did not leave the body.

        West may have a goldmine handed to him by this Dr., when he started his cross this morning, had little prospects of more than pyrites.

    • ay2z says:

      NEVER give an attorney the chance to drive a spike between original and your later notations. Especially if he’s got notes about ‘memory’ research to create even more big holes.

      Question is, how can anyone reach him now, as he’s still on the stand, unless he has a legal advisor who can help him understand he doesn’t drive this bus?

    • gwynne says:

      I am stunned by this development, professor. It would have never occurred to me that he was clueless about how to testify.
      Totally stunned.

    • texad says:

      I agree, Professor. And that someone should have been BDLR or someone from his office. In reference to ALL his witnesses. Rachel Jeantel’s atty says that the prosecuting team did no prep/vetting of her at all.


      • fauxmccoy says:

        this would be someone that BDLR has never worked with before, since it is out of his usual district. ME’s seem to be appointed by the governor (according to testimony by dr. rao previously) but whoever his supervisor is needs to work with him on presentation. it’s entirely possible BDLR had no clue upon deposition that this would even be an issue.

        • Malisha says:

          Every decent lawyer preps every single witness, period, no exceptions, that’s IT. No way around that. WTF?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            sounds like they met recently to discuss testimony — but what the hell can you do with someone like this? it’s unfortunate.

    • This is what Dr. Bao is referring to: “Pressuring eyewitnesses to answer questions about an event, when they indicate that they do not know the answer, can result in false confabulations.” http://www.cgu.edu/PDFFiles/sbos/Pezdek_Confabulation.pdf

      Professor…any reason to believe this is “improper” in terms of courtroom procedure? ie. Will it cause a mistrial or anything like that?

  113. Two sides to a story says:

    I don’t know what West thinks he can get out of this. Professor, have you ever seen defense attorneys do this to medical examiners? This is bizarre.

  114. “Is there something funny there” asks Dr. Bao, as the two unbelievably rude defense lawyers openly laugh at his personal notes, in open court.

  115. Tzar says:

    Dr. Bao sense of courtroom decorum is about as good as DeeDee on her first day of testimony

    • RobertSF says:

      True, but he has no excuse. He’s supposed to be a professional.

      • Tzar says:

        I wonder how many times he has testified in court, i imagine it is quite a bit, so I really don’t get why he doesn’t seem to know how the sausage is made.

  116. bettykath says:

    ME sounds defensive.

  117. jodiwankanobi says:

    hahahahaha is there something funny there …lord have mercy this is killing me…poor guy has tried so hard to be a good witness and they just don’t know how to take him….

  118. gbrbsb says:

    But haven’t we already heard from one expert a few days back that at least two pieces of Trayvon’s clothing were packaged separately each in a plastic bag and then the two plastic bags placed in a paper bag ?

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Right. But. that could have been done by the trace evidence guy, who is the person that the witness had gotten the clothing from.

    • bettykath says:

      the other way around. they were first put in paper bags and the paper bags were put in plastic.

      • gbrbsb says:

        If you tell me which day and testimony BK I may check that because I could have sworn it was the other way… but then it could be the Alzheimer creeping up!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @gbrbsb — my memory is the same as yours. two items (hoodie and undershirt) placed in separate biohazard bags and then inside a paper bag.

          the question of course is when did the get put into plastic. ultimately, i doubt it had an effect on evidence, but does give west a hole to poke ‘reasonable doubt’ all he wishes.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Thnx Faux. I don’t think type of bagging affected either, as I seem to recall the way the samples went it would have had to have been selective degradation on one and not the other which is ridiculous.

      • gbrbsb says:

        bettykath, sorry to trouble but my for some unknown reason my ip address is apparently being flagged up as spam by the spam guard so for the past two days any comments I make unless replying to a blogger’s reply to me on the notifications page they do not register on the page.

        According to WP the owner of the blog has to approve (accept) at least one of my comments in the spam box and I will be free. It worked on Xena’s so she knows what to do. Xena, Faux, Cielo I think they’ve all emailed the professor to no avail.

        You may not get this and it may not work either but I am posting to as many as bloggers I can because if you all reply to any of the professor’s or Cranes’s posts with my plight I could be vocal again.

  119. Dr. Bao would like to do an autopsy on West and MOM!!!

  120. mrsdoubtfire says:

    Dr Bao is trying to say this notes are 100% accurate as opposed to his memory of a case he dealt with 17 months ago. West is using the OJ paybook…evidence improperly packaged stored and that damn rain washed away everything that doesnt support Zimmerman.

  121. Puck says:

    “Is there something funny there?”

  122. Sophia33 says:

    He asked if there is something funny there?

  123. Michael Stewart says:

    Doesn’t matter if it’s MOM or West, I can’t listen to the Cream Team cross examinations without wanting to break something.

    Does that make me a bad person ?

  124. breelee says:

    That’s just wrong giving West his notes! Now he’ll know what not to ask! I’m stunned JN allowed this.

  125. groans says:

    Sounds to me like defense counsel were d*cks to Bao during deposition, and he came ready not to have words put into his mouth at trial.

  126. My Forehead Tho says:

    So the man who can’t remember what he said 2 seconds ago is attempting to discredit a man who can’t remember in detail what he did 1 1/2 years ago?


  127. fauxmccoy says:

    i hope to god his personal notes are written in mardarin

  128. ay2z says:

    Is Dr. Bao going rogue with this personal ‘investigation’ into memory?

    Is this a can or worms?

  129. I could be best friends with Dr. Bao.

  130. Dr. Bao says, if anyone packaged wet clothing, they would be fired.

    • chi1224 says:

      Professor what is your take on Dr. Bao?

    • ay2z says:

      We know that the spouse of Tim Smith, SPD, was the technician processing items documented at the scene. Did she package the items from paper to plastic without drying?

      But in the end, DNA did survive. DNA survives much worse conditions.

      This witness, Dr. Bao, isn’t very experienced in court procedure. He should never have been allowed to get his opinion about ‘memory’ facts in, great for defense, I would think.

      Talk about overthinking, with best of intentions to be ‘perfect’ possibly.

      Bernie did have a good smile over one point where Dr. Bao took West to school.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      He shouldn’t even gone down that bunny trail with West. He examined the body fresh off the ground and that’s were his expertise starts and ends.

  131. boyd says:

    I work with people from all over the world 5 days a week.I hear all kinds of english. it’s funny hearing this. West needs to shut up and listen

  132. Sabrina B. says:

    Someone tampered with evidence. But it could have gone to the trace/ brush man in paper and repackaged in plastic.

  133. jodiwankanobi says:

    west….it is easy…..he performs the autopsy on the body, that’s all he can answer to.

  134. Trained Observer says:

    Are homicide autopsies ever videotaped? … Is this likely to become part of the gruesome procedure just to offset nonsense like this?

  135. jodiwankanobi says:

    oh shit…was it packaged in plastic?

    • Sophia33 says:

      That seems to be the claim.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      When the forensics guy received them they were in plastic. But he received them from the trace evidence guy, who might have received them in paper but put them in plastic to transfer to forensics. He is nit-picking because he knows the trace guy was not there to testify how he received them.

  136. chi1224 says:

    “there are no plastic bags, except the body bag”

  137. Sabrina B. says:

    So who does he think open the packages and put them in plastic bags? Going from misconduct from technicians.

  138. gbrbsb says:

    Maybe West should be asking one of his assistants ?

  139. He is trying to say he has a medical issue with his memory…

    • Puck says:

      I think he’s saying in a roundabout way that he can’t remember every single autopsy he does.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        exactly — if martin’s autopsy was the 43rd for the year on 2/27/12 — how many has dr. bao completed since? he is making a valid point, that no one could answer with absolute accuracy, which as a scientist he is obliged to do, based on memory alone.

      • HappyinNM says:

        Which I hope will give credence to why he prepared notes in anticipation of his testimony. Hopefully his notes totally align with his report.

  140. Two sides to a story says:

    I can see why Bao wouldn’t remember every single detail of every single autopsy he’s done. West is trying to make him seem incompetent.

  141. Sabrina B. says:

    Ahhh! Plastic bag, degraded DNA!

  142. FactsFirst says:

    OMGOODNESS!!! Pest is getting on my last nerve! He need to go get some more dayum ice cream! UGH!

  143. chi1224 says:

    This guy is very real. The autopsy was well over a year ago. He does autopsies all the time, it makes sense he would not recall the specifics, and he rightfully relies on his report.

  144. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    West filibustering !

  145. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    Where is West going with his line of questioning besides the fact that the hands weren’t bagged.

  146. KittySP says:

    I can’t tolerate listening to ‘mr. Don’… I mute the sound and read you alls comments and the short summery that HLN flashes on the screen.

  147. West is trying to setup playing the rain card.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Looks like it didn’t work.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Is it customary for the hands of the victim to be bagged? I thought that was only customary in cases of, the possibility of checking for gun powder residue and, not for the presence of DNA of the person who committed the crime against the victim.

  148. Two sides to a story says:

    I can’t see how some of West’s questions are even pertinent. Perhaps interesting, but why does knowledge of autopsy procedures help the jury.

  149. Sabrina B. says:

    West trying to nit pick. Not going to work, West.

  150. chi1224 says:

    “as soon as we open the bag we see the body”

    This witness is somehow so refreshing to me

  151. chi1224 says:

    This is unbelievable! I am LMAO!

  152. uhoh says:

    Can Dr Boa perform an autopsy (vivisection) on DW to help the jury understand better?

  153. deetruth says:

    Chill Dr. Bao.

  154. Tzar says:

    Why do you think so much blood went into Trayvon’s lungs?
    ans: could it be that someone was compressing his abdominal aorta and inferior vena cava (via valsava compression) by sitting on him?

    • RobertSF says:

      More likely because Trayvon’s lung was destroyed. The blood that usually goes through the lung to be purified went instead into the pleural cavity.

      • Tzar says:

        RobertSF Jul 5, 10:42 am

        More likely because Trayvon’s lung was destroyed.

        that does not make sense anatomically the bullet only hit part of the right lower lobe.

        The blood that usually goes through the lung to be purified went instead into the pleural cavity.

        with all due respect Robert, that seems wholly irrelevant to my point and physiologically incorrect.

        Let me clarify
        the blood took the path of least resistance because something was compressing the abdominal aorta which has a pretty wide caliber (nearly as wide if not wider than the bullet hole in the lung). Point is George may have hasten the death of an immobile 17yo by jumping on top of him and causing his lungs to rapidly fill up with blood.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Also, when the bullet went through the left ventricle and the fragment went through the lower lobe of the right lung, the heart kept beating blood into the lungs.

      • MDH says:

        The bullet caused a huge hole in the ventricle and pericardium. That is what frangible bullets do – shred tissue. As a result, the heart, although still beating, can not provide any pressure to extremities – it just vents blood into the chest cavity. This means that Trayvon had to collapse the instant after being shot in that the brain has no pressure to support higher functions. The heart will still get a beat signal from the brain stem (primal function) till it dies from lack of blood. That’s why Bao is adamant about Trayvon not being able to move. I bring this up because the morons who back Z will use the “he was alive for up to 10 minutes” as proof that the story about getting up, saying some words was true.

        Actually, this testimony should be the nail In GZ’s coffin.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        the left lung was deflated by bullet fragments, heart continued to pump blood into the pleural cavity until the right lung deflated as well due to pressure from internal bleeding.

    • With 2 holes in it, the heart pumped the blood in the lungs.

      • Tzar says:

        The aortic trunk is about as wide and remains more so mechanically patent than the bullet hole that in posterior wall of the heart that lead into the pleural/pneumonic space.

        edit: you know what? I see a problem with my logic, the pleral cavity and lung space because of their capacity-containing only air- had almost zero resistance and given enough time would fill up with blood.

        However George sitting on top of him would certainly increase the pressure/resistance gradient between the lung space and the aortic trunk and therefore would hasten he egress of blood into the lungs.

        thus i still think George helped force blood into the lungs after he shot this kid.

  155. Sabrina B. says:

    LOL Love, love, love him.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Let’s hope he stands his ground the entire time. Also Martin was face down so any blood on his hands would have been preserved under his body. After he was turned over he MP’s were standing over him, shielding him from the rain. In other news Fogen had supernatural blood that the rain didn’t wash the back of his head.

  156. MedicineBear says:

    Hey, West-of-time, Ask him if he understands English! Throw your pen!

  157. HereslookingatYou says:

    shut up west

  158. disappointed says:

    LOL West is going nuts!

  159. tharealkeisha says:

    I love Dr Bao

    • RobertSF says:

      I don’t. This is not about upsetting West. It’s about being credible before the jury, and he’s coming across very unprofessionally. It’s bad enough that his English is so poor, and his inability to answer questions responsively makes him look worse.

      • PerfectlyImperfect says:

        I disagree. He doesn’t want words put in his mouth, and he doesn’t want there to be an appearance of his staff doing anything improperly.

        • Ms.X says:

          He also doesn’t want to get tricked into agreeing to something he isn’t or hasn’t said like those with better English.

      • I actually respectfully disagree with you. I am not having any issue with the language.

        • cielo62 says:

          Crane~ agree with you. Everything he is saying is that he puts everything in his report and refuses to just use memory. Robert has no confidence in this ME.


      • KittySP says:

        @RobertSF – that is a very poor mischaracterization of this witness.

      • ks says:

        No, he answers responsively, he just not allowing West to assert nonsense.

  160. Sophia33 says:

    Did West bound his hand on the podium again?

  161. mgs710 says:

    Professor, didn’t GZ say that TM was trying to smother him by putting all of hsi wait on his mouth and nose? And this happened right before the shot because GZ said in his initial interview with the police that TM took his hand off of his mouth to go for the gun? How could GZ be screaming?

  162. HereslookingatYou says:

    let me ANSWER…LOL

  163. Let the meltdown begin!!!

  164. willisnewton says:

    I have no desire to see this. But it’s important i guess. West will ask insanely convoluted questions and pretend to get affirmative answers, and WILL get some affirmative answers.

  165. gwynne says:

    Love Dr Bao, he certainly appears to be a guy who cares about telling the TRUTH under oath.

  166. disappointed says:

    West is failing with this guy.

  167. Teresa Malphurs from the MEs office arrived at the scene at 2144 hours. She left at 2210

  168. Rachael says:

    He was shot and he was dead.

  169. ROFLMFAO: He is actually going to try to do the ‘rain’ argument.

  170. fauxmccoy says:

    next question from west: “can you read english?”

  171. jodiwankanobi says:

    haha see bernie smile at west…he doesn’t even need to object because his witness is nobodies fool

  172. gbrbsb says:

    West trying to raise a doubt to the jury that any blood on Trayvon’s hands could have been washed away by the rain. He forgets blood couldn’t have washed off Trayvon’s clothing with the rain.

    • Ms.X says:

      Plus his hands were under him. If there was that much of a certain element on his hands, it would’ve gotten on his clothing or been preserved on one side (the body side) and possibly washed off on the ground side, but no guarantee of being 100% washed off.

  173. Sophia33 says:

    I wonder if West is going to bound on the podium again?

  174. Ms.X says:

    Bwahahaha! Dr, Bao! Dr. Bao! He is stomping west’s game. Hes not getting caught up in it. Good for him!

  175. tonydphotog says:

    BDLR is loving this!

  176. MedicineBear says:

    “Do you understand?” He’s going Dee Dee up on his ass!

  177. My Forehead Tho says:

    “Do you understand? I’m under oath I can’t give you wrong information, do you understand?”

    I’m loving this expert.

  178. jodiwankanobi says:

    west is as dumb as dumb as a box full of bricks…guy in the back is loving it haha

  179. Sabrina B. says:

    LMOA I am cracking up.

  180. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    Love Dr. Bao!

  181. ladystclaire says:

    I guess Pest is trying to say, that somebody destroyed the DNA from Fogen that may have been present on Trayvon’s hands. this man makes me sick.

  182. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Trayvon’s body was covered within @20minutes of the shooting with a plastic tarp

  183. Witness to Ice Cream: “Do you understand?”


  184. chi1224 says:

    I am rolling over here! omg…. love this guy giving West the smack down!!

  185. fauxmccoy says:

    another “do you understand?” to mr. don. LOVE IT!

  186. Rachael says:

    Mr. West – You are an asshat.

  187. chi1224 says:

    This guy will not put up with West’s bullshit… “this is not my evidence”

  188. Sabrina B. says:

    Love Bao.

  189. tonydphotog says:

    So West is also racist towards Asians!

  190. When he opened the bag, the hands were not bagged.

  191. BWA-hahaHA!

    Faced. Right out of the box, on the standards for bagging.

  192. Sabrina B. says:

    Ha! Get him Bao. You cannot use plastic bags on the hands fewl.

  193. amsterdam1234 says:

    West can’t help being an ass.

  194. Ice Cream is going to put on a medical hat and try to take on a pathologist.

    Good luck with all that, Ice Cream.

    • gwynne says:

      I can picture him wearing one of those paper crisp white soda jerk hats. Maybe even with red ink trim!
      Anything to do with medicine? Not so much.

  195. Rachael says:

    I hate him more every day

  196. MedicineBear says:

    An average heart pumps 1.3 gallons (5 liters) per minute.
    [from wiki answers]

  197. Sophia33 says:

    What?! The prosecution is done with the ME

  198. Oh dear Lord God.

    It’s Ice Cream.

  199. Court is back in session.

    Cross by West.

  200. Court is back in session, jury is present, gallery standing.

  201. Still no testimony about the alignment of the holes in the sweatshirts with the entrance wound.

    I have been expecting Dr. Bao to testify about that since he likely is the only witness who would have noticed that they didn’t align.

  202. jodiwankanobi says:

    so here we go then …. defense: but the scratch could have been made from grazing across someones nose….there are a total of 3 abrasions….could that have been from 3 different contacts…but it iiiiis possible….and had Trayvon Martin used his open hand to repeatedly hit the defendant then that wouldn’t show up any abrasions now would it, so it iiiiiis possible that Martin hit him….although Trayvon Martin is right handed and that would be his preferred hand…it iiiiiis possible he decided to use his left hand only when punching the defendant while using his right hand to smother….if we cut off Trayvons right hand then what hand does that leave for punching? is it the left hand?….so you agree if trayvon martin didn’t have a right hand then it is possible he punched with his left hand…..and iiiiis it possible that upon grabbing the gun that george zimmerman had to wrestle from him that that may have caused these insignificant injuries to his left pinky? but it iiiiiiis possible.

  203. amsterdam1234 says:

    I think the smartest move for the defense is to get dr. Bao of the stand as fast as possible.

    • gwynne says:

      I don’t think that’s possible if w is doing the cross.

    • type1juve says:

      Oh I’m looking forward to West versus Bao!

    • willisnewton says:

      West can and will ask a great deal of leading and confused/ obfuscating questions. He’s also going to want to run out the clock at least until lunch, if not a great deal more.

      His goal here will be to use the “Chewbacca defense” and just try to confuse every issue as much as possible and distance the jury from actual facts and medical opinion. He will try to get this ME flustered and combative I’d imagine to discredit him in the only way he can – on a personal and professional level.

      It will be a sick, sad spectacle I fear. Bit in the end nothing will come of it.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I’m sure West won’t miss an opportunity to be a condescending asshole. But dr. Boa is a loose canon.

  204. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I love all of you!

    You are compassionate people who have supported justice for Trayvon with many hours of tireless work, evidence analysis, and posts advocating for Trayvon!!

    Bless you all!

  205. Will there be testimony about alignment? Yes, or no?

  206. amsterdam1234 says:

    This was devastating for the defense.

  207. 10 minute recess. Resume at 11:25 am EDT

  208. Ice Cream wanted a recess, so the Court is in recess for 10 minutes.

  209. So he’s not going to ask if he was talking?

    • Puck says:

      I think BDLR deliberately didn’t ask that so as to let the defense make worse fools of themselves by asking. It’s GZ’s story, let them push it and have Bao smack them down.

  210. chi1224 says:

    West needs a recess, LOL

  211. The abrasion to the ring finger could have happened up to 2 hours before the shooting, during the shooting or after the shooting as he fell to the ground.

    “like a scratch to the skin”

    Wasn’t bleeding

    Abrasion to the pinkie too small to express any opinion about cause or when..

  212. gwynne says:

    I understand the concerns, and I hope he continues to be a good witness. What I especially like, though, is that he makes it pretty easy for jurors to take notes. If they are paying attention, he highlights important points with pauses and spellings. It’s like a class.

  213. sadlyyes says:

    in China ,boy children are highly prized and adored

  214. So much for the made-up ‘bloody knuckles’ reports/theory. That didn’t happen.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Yes indeed CranStation, bloody knuckles lie was one that O’dirty was more than proud to get up front of GOD, the court and, the world to proclaim as fact, that this kid had bloody injured knuckles. I don’t see how this POS will be allowed to get away with this murder of a child.

  215. chi1224 says:

    Bernie gets in how thorough the finger nail scraping procedure is!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


    • Puck says:

      Wednesday the defense tried to imply that “fingernail” labeled on the scrapings bag meant only one fingernail from each hand was scraped. I even heard a talking head lawyer on MSNBC (the obligatory stealth defense cheerleader) repeat that. Come on, “fingernail” on the label is short for “fingernail scrapings.” As if they would scrape only one.

  216. type1juve says:

    Dr. Bao said when he “fell” to the ground. Wow!

  217. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    abrasion = superficial injury to skin, very minor

  218. chi1224 says:

    West is going to have a breakdown on cross….. he should just pass

  219. Romaine says:

    I think Dr. Bao is a Hottie

  220. Unabogie says:

    I disagree with people criticizing him. Dammit, this trial has been seriously lacking anyone from the damn SPD who got riled that this man killed an unarmed child. It’s good for the jury to realize that it’s ok to be upset at something so horrible.

    • chi1224 says:

      Actually I like him, I agree with you. West is NOT going to rattle this guy!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Uni — you’ll get no disagreement from me. Certain evidence that Bao uncovered brings the right for any sane human being to be incensed.

    • RobertSF says:

      But that can turn the jury against the state. Trials are supposed to be impartial, and witnesses are not supposed to be advocates.

      • Unabogie says:

        I doubt that. If the jury is turned off by an ME who got upset when cutting up a dead kid, they’re as whacked as Zimmerman.

    • Malisha says:

      Very peculiar for both police witnesses to be defense-friendly and angry at the prosecution, too. This guy is great.

  221. gbrbsb says:

    You would think they would be able to determine by what time Trayvon had actually passed by the time of the shot and the time the first policeman tested for pulse. If that used 10 mins or more IDK.

  222. Two sides to a story says:

    Fogen sees and hears the clock ticking.

  223. gwynne says:

    I want to hear his opinion on the “you got me” stuff. Hope it’s coming up soon.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      not to be blunt, but unable to move would include not being able to move mouth, lips and tongue to articulate words. there is a reason screaming stopped at gunshot.

  224. He doesn’t believe TM could have moved after the shot, but he could have been conscious for up to 10 minutes.

    • Rachael says:

      How awful those last minutes must have been.

    • sadlyyes says:

      bloody hell,omg

    • MDH says:

      When I read the autopsy, it was my opinion that damage to the heart and pericardium caused a catastrophic loss of blood pressure such that standing was impossible. It became a pump with a huge hole that vented blood into Trayvons chest. That said, Trayvon probably instantly passed out, and pitched face down into the grass where he remained. This testimony should be the nail in GZ’s coffin. How does a man with no blood pressure to his brain get up, say some remarks straight out of cheap crime film, step three paces back and then collapse?

      GZ shot Travon from a standing position as he (Trayvon) was trying to back away with GZ pulling on the hem of the hoodie with his left hand.

      It explains the scream.

      What would a boy do when a man has him by the shirt with his left hand and a gun in his right pointed at his chest?

      GZ is a self serving, despicable coward.

      • cielo62 says:

        MDH~ Yes, he couldn’t stand up at all, so HOW would he manage to stumble some 40 feet down to towards the T where the body was found? Yeah, right. gz is toast.


  225. He doesn’t believe Tm could move which correlates with witnesses statements besides Selma seeing some leg movements

  226. Sabrina B. says:

    He could not move after being shot. That’s important.

  227. Tzar says:

    Bao is a loose cannon unwilling to be led by his own attorney
    this should be the most interesting cross yet.

  228. disappointed says:

    This M.E. is telling it like it is.

  229. willisnewton says:

    ME: no fact, zero opinion about body position.

  230. chi1224 says:

    Doesn’t believe he can move after being shot, but could feel pain

  231. The Defense will not have fun with this guy…he is going to clarify himself…they will not be able to manipulate his words…

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think he’ll do well.

      • Ms.X says:

        He’ll do well if he can make heads or tails of west’s 35 word run on questions. No one has really been able to totally figure out what the hell hes asking or talking about.

  232. Due to the intermediary target (2 sweatshirts) it’s difficult to estimate the distance from muzzle to entrance wound.

    He calls it loose contact shot.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      could loose contact shot be that the material was not touching the skin as opposed to the material being loose/flowing….perhaps it could still have been being held onto

  233. gbrbsb says:

    He may be stressing a bit too much that this is just his “opinion”, because when West get’s his oar in he will make mincemeat of it!

    • willisnewton says:

      not really. It’s his expert opinion based on his long experience. THe jury will understand that. Also, where can west really go with this? GZ shot the kid and everyone knows it.

      • Puck says:

        He’ll want to know whether someone can speak after this kind of traumatic wound.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I was referring more as to how West is going to lay into him because his stressing so often it is only his opinion could give the idea that he is not very sure of his findings.

        OTOH, and IDK and IMBW, but I’m wondering if the defence’s expert will try to be much more precise about the timing of the finger wounds, i.e. at the time of the altercation, while a lot less precise about gun distance, i.e. that it was further away than the State claimed in opening, i.e. that GZ pressed the gun right up to Trayvon’s chest. Just musing !

  234. sadlyyes says:

    the pain!,he was drowning in his own blood……aye carumba

  235. gwynne says:

    ME is a good teacher, I think.

  236. RobertSF says:

    Ok, it is what it is, I guess, but Dr. Bao is a loose cannon. It looks like this is his first rodeo.

    • Sophia33 says:

      But he has testified at other trials. So he should know better.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sophia~ dont see the problem. As a minority himself, maybe he needs to be forceful to be taken seriously. I like his assertiveness.


      • Malisha says:

        I actually think he’s OK. These jurors are more accustomed to seeing TV crime-show trials than real trials. They probably respond very well to this. I think it’s really hitting home, what Fogen did, what happened that night, how depraved, how malicious, how murderous. Trayvon’s dead body spoke to the witness through his autopsy. I think this is OK, if unusual. But then again, isn’t the whole trial unusual?

    • willisnewton says:

      could be a cultural issue. But yes, he is not the usual expert witness.

    • cielo62 says:

      Robert what a stupid thing to say.


    • Trained Observer says:

      However it looks, in reality it ain’t.

  237. Tzar says:

    what the hell is Bao doing?

  238. chi1224 says:

    This witness is feisty

  239. Sophia33 says:

    Boa! Is excited! He wants to make sure that the jury understand what a monster GZ is.

  240. Was alive from 1 to 10 minutes after he was shot. No chance to survive the wound.

    heart kept beating until no blood left to pump.

    1700 mi of blood found in L pleural cavity, 1000 ml in the R pleural cavity.

    shot from intermediate range (0.4 inches to 4 feet)

    • Trained Observer says:

      Explains why Fogen was so desperate to establish that he needed help restraining as he pushed air out of this doomed teen’s lungs

      … is there an extra penalty for such depravity?

  241. willisnewton says:

    ME Bao: “100 persent confidence it was intermediate range”

  242. RobertSF says:

    It’s some comfort to know Trayvon could not have survived for ten minutes since the police arrived within a minute of the shot, and almost immediately determined Trayvon had no pulse.

  243. chi1224 says:

    They are proving Fogen was holding onto the hoodie as Trayvon was trying to get away when he shot

  244. jodiwankanobi says:

    he would have heard them talking of calibers and wondering why is no one trying to save me….this is officially the first time i have literally cried during this trial.

  245. Sophia33 says:

    Trayvon had 3 Liters of blood in his chest when he died. For reference, the average human has about 5 Liters of blood in entire body. GZ should fry!

    • Tzar says:

      and that is how you know he was not talking
      there was no blood coming out of his mouth

    • riisey007 says:

      That gun shot drained all of the blood from the heart and all of this blood was allowed to collect in the chest walls. This is so sad, how the hell did Zimmerman not know he shot this kid and on top of that he laid on top of him and spread his legs out. The witnesses were out there standing and talking to him all while he was laying there dying.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Zimmerman claimed he spread Trayvon’s arms (not legs). A lie. Jon Manolo photographed body within 30 seconds of the shot. Tray facing down, hands under body at chest level (clutching chest instinctively when shot, I expect.

        Legs together. Both feet in same direction – head turned in oppo direction.

  246. chi1224 says:

    straight shot

  247. Ms.X says:

    Trayvon suffered.

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      with gz on his back!!!!!!

    • chi1224 says:

      He did, and I’m glad this ME said that to the jury, for up to 10 minutes!

      • Ms.X says:

        I hope it rings in their ears all night & over the weekend. Mr. wanna be police officer didn’t render any service at all.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        • Ms.X says:

          This shows why gz wanted to be police officer & what he planned to do with it. He didn’t want to help old ladies across the street or get cats out of trees, He wanted to have power over people & make them do what he said. He wanted to dominate & control people. He wanted to shoot people.

          • cielo62 says:

            Ms X~ Yep! A power freak to destroy.


          • @Ms. X:

            I had stated that TM could have lived for a few seconds after being shot. A few of the Physicians that I work with also stated that to me as well. how the hell was TM able to sit up and yell, ‘YOU GOT ME!” When he was slowly dying and blood was filling his lungs drowning him?? Mr. Cop Wannabe didn’t even offer to render any type of medical assistance like CPR! Instead, this stupid ASS sits on the boy and frisks him and tries to restrain him! That poor kid. He knew he was dying and he had to suffer the last indignity of his freak putting his dirty filthy hands on his body!

  248. chi1224 says:

    Oh God alive one to ten minutes!!

  249. gwynne says:

    This is so painful to hear how Trayvon died.

  250. parrot says:

    Alive for one to ten minutes when shot.

  251. tharealkeisha says:

    I see O’Mara got his questions from treehouse but used it on Jharvaris instead of Sybrina

  252. Fin Gomez ‏@finnygo

    B29 sighs when they show nude body of #TrayvonMartin. She then looks over to Martin’s father’s area.She is having a tough time. Looks sad.

  253. Ex 97 are the abrasions to L ring finger and the pinkie

    No injury to right hand at all.

  254. MedicineBear says:

    Fatfuck CAC is bored — almost nodding off. He’s wondering when they’re going to show his “life threatening” kitten scratches again.

  255. Ex 95 shows the entrance wound with soot and 2×2 inch area of stippling surrounding it.

    Ex 96 is a more close-up

    Describes soot and stippling

    • @Professor Leatherman:

      Which means Professor, the gun was up and close on TM. Also, once again that woman on CNN is getting on my last nerve! She is acting all giddy again! It is obvious that she is favorable and on the side of GZ! I thought she would jump up and down again! Oh my god, the Doctor had notes and the DA and the defense didn’t know he was referrring to his notes.They need to see these notes? Why aren’t they focusing on the gunshot wound and the lack of blood on TM’s hands and on his sleeves?? Where are the text messages, cell phone records, and e-mails of Fogen? When are they going to introduce them?? They cannot rest with thsoe still not being released!! This trial is very strange to me. Crazy! JN must be losing her mind!

  256. No blood on the hands.

    Only injuries are two small abrasions to finger left hand.

  257. jodiwankanobi says:

    gz can only look for a second at a time….it’s a bit fucking real now isn’t george?

    • EdgySF says:

      It looks like his breathing rate increased…Fogen’s chest is going up and down noticeably

    • Sleuth says:

      I noticed that too. He barely looks at the screen when the pictures are up. He has convinced himself that those pictures have absolutely nothing to do with his evil and deliberate actions.

  258. Stating the obvious: Dr. Bao, the pathologist, was upset by this case.

  259. chi1224 says:

    Finally, Trayvon’s INJURIES take CENTER STAGE as opposed to Fogen’s “very minor” boo-boos.

  260. 104 is the front side of the hoodie
    105 is a close-up of the gunshot hole

  261. Ms.X says:

    Mr. Martin is really suffering.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      and the lady behind him is just managing to hold on i think

      • Sleuth says:

        I noticed that too. Now we know why Sybrina walked out before the ME was called in. I believe BDLR was whispering in her ear as she sat in the witness box, warning her of the graphic pictures and details the ME would be going over.

        I even noticed the guy in the blue shirt, sitting in the row behind Mr. Martin watching him with a look of sincere concern.

    • chi1224 says:

      I see that too, my heart breaks for him

    • blushedbrown says:

      Yes my heart breaks for him and Sabrina.

  262. MedicineBear says:

    “Back of hoody appears to be wet”

  263. jodiwankanobi says:

    good, they have learned not to show the photo’s so the public can not create memes of the dead child…

  264. sadlyyes says:

    Dear Prof, is the fact that he sat on him,and rendered NO assistance,a depraved mind?

  265. smokeegyrl says:

    Fogen’s posture has now changed. Ok, y’all gotta go. BBL.

  266. Sabrina B. says:

    And yet, he would do it all over again. No regrets.

  267. EX 99 is the xray of body showing the lead fragments in the body before the bag was opened.

  268. My Forehead Tho says:

    Tracy is strong.

  269. sadlyyes says:

    gonna read your comments cant stand the awful truth of the poor boys suffering,he was gunned down,like by a depraved lunatic,who NEVER apologized,

  270. Exhibit 81-84: sealed bag containing the body

  271. gwynne says:

    maybe w needs his own personal assistent to help him as he slowly shuffles pictures, paper.

  272. jodiwankanobi says:

    hope they wont show the public….gz got a good look, admiring his work

  273. chi1224 says:

    West isn’t even up yet and he is already a disaster.

  274. Trained Observer says:

    Fogen resettles himself in his seat …. are his hemorrhoids acting up?

  275. Sophia33 says:

    Anything to be disruptive, West.

  276. parrot says:

    Tracy identified the body after the autopsy was performed. I hope he didn’t have to see that terrible “Y” incision.

    • @Parrot:

      UGH! I remember when I was a Nursing student, I had to view several autopies for experience. It was very difficult for me, but I learned so much from seeing what a ME does at an autopsy. Last week, I lost a pt. and for the 100th time, had to wash and toe tag the body. I passed on viewing the autopsy.

      I love this ME, but I do not like the way that West is cross examining this Doctor. The Doctor’s notes are just that, his notes on the autopsy. Let the defense review them. They are certifible. Trying to find anything that will exonerate their hateful, depraved client!

      • cielo62 says:

        Deborah ~ I once did an autopsy with a handful of students. Will never forget the internal fight to keep detached.


      • parrot says:

        Thank you for sharing that.

        I’ve had to study autopsies for the purposes of acquiring the vocabulary and concepts of this procedure. I’m a judiciary interpreter.

        The photographs of the bodies, the “Y” incision procedure wasn’t easy to look at. Can’t imagine seeing this in person.

        My sister is an administrative pediatric nurse. I have much respect for your profession. Thank you for your dedication.

  277. Had 2 assistants who helped during the autopsy.

  278. This ME volunteers to much talking. I’m afraid it would make him an easy target for MoM.

    • Sleuth says:

      It also seems to be an ME thing. IIRC, Dr. Rao, she was pretty much the same way. She even acknowledged that she knows that she is not suppose to ask the attorneys questions, and went on to say she would ask anyway.

      I think after having testified in court cases so many times, they are very aware of how some attorneys like to spin things.

  279. mrsdoubtfire says:

    Look forward to hear ME’s opinion on whether TM was able to sit up and say “You got me ” when his lungs collapsed almost on impact.

  280. sadlyyes says:

    omg! dont know if i can listen

  281. Since West objected and is arguing his objection at the bench, he will be doing the cross examination.

  282. Sleuth says:

    Somebody please tell me it ain’t so. Trayvon was still alive, in pain, and suffering after he was shot?

    • This is so sad. Trayvon was tortured.

    • willisnewton says:

      he didnt say for how long.

      • Sleuth says:


        I think I heard Dr. Bao say 1-10 minutes at first, then he said 10 min. He also said Trayvon would not have been able to sit or stand up. I also believe it is very unlikely that he would have been able to talk. This means the confessed murderer lied yet again.

    • Malisha says:

      Correct. Alive, in pain, suffering, Fogen sitting on his back and spreading his hands apart to “see if he was holding anything.” Fogen told onlooker NOT to call 911. Right.

      • Sleuth says:

        That’s because he KNEW that child was still alive and WANTED him dead!

        So now we have confirmation for what we always knew was an impossibility……………..No, ‘Sat/Stood up’ and saying, “You Got Me”, No, “You Got It”.

        Oh, sick arse, evil son of hell!

  283. Woow! says:

    Good morning family. What have I missed this morning?

    • willisnewton says:

      Evidence locker LOCK was tampered with. Locksmiths had to drill it and ot took at least an hour. This may have re-ordered the state’s witnesses since the evidence (which seems secure) was not available at first.

      Sybrina was called first, and identified the screams on the 911 recording as those of her son. SHe was poised and did not openly weep. She handled MOM’s cross well and he was unable to obviously impeach her on any point to my eyes.

      THen her other son testified, and MOM crossed. Some back and forth, you’d have to watch it yourself but he did fine. Same opinion expressed.

      Locker finally opened, and Sybrina recalled to stand to identify the photo button TM was wearing. She did so, and was excused without further cross examination, and she left the courtroom.

      ME up now.

      GZ appears sweaty and nervous. Gave mean looks to Trayvon’s brother. Sprang up FAST when jury called back in. Less impassive than usual today is consensus of this group.

  284. gbrbsb says:

    This will go towards depraved mind, disregard for human life… or not?

  285. jodiwankanobi says:

    and when your insides have just been torn apart and you are scared and in pain and suffering and know you are going to die you don’t say “yeah you got it”….the only thing zimmerman left out was the high five.

  286. amsterdam1234 says:

    And GZ was sitting on top of him, pushing his face in the ground.

  287. gwynne says:

    the jury must be on the edge of their seats listening to this testimony. w can’t be impressive trying to interrupt the flow, complain about the wording.
    It is what it is, ice cream man. deal with it.

  288. disappointed says:

    This could be why murder 2. He shot him and walked away. Never try to comfort aid him nothing. That is cold, he knew he was no longer a danger.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Showed depraved indifference when he crawled on his back.

    • riisey007 says:

      None of them tried to do anything. One witness wanted ot know what type of gun he used. Sad.

    • Malisha says:

      My educated guess? Fogen had it worked out he would apprehend a criminal that night, by the following method: he would spot the guy, call NEN, Timothy Smith would head out to the neighborhood but not get there in time for Fogen to have to “defend himself” by the use of force, and BOOM, Timothy Smith would then be able to make Fogen a hero and bring in the criminal for his punishment. My guess is that after killing Trayvon Martin, Fogen called NEN back to get Smith on the line and say, “change of plans; he’s dead and other cops are gonna show up too so be ready for that.”

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Malisha –

        “Fogen had it worked out he would apprehend a criminal that night, by the following method: he would spot the guy, call NEN, Timothy Smith would head out to the neighborhood but not get there in time for Fogen to have to “defend himself” by the use of force, and BOOM, Timothy Smith would then be able to make Fogen a hero and bring in the criminal for his punishment. My guess is that after killing Trayvon Martin, Fogen called NEN back to get Smith on the line and say, “change of plans; he’s dead and other cops are gonna show up too so be ready for that.”

        Malisha, I hate to think a REAL cop would be so stupid to conspire with a civilian …. but in any outfit, there are stupid people. This scenario sounds real. Maybe Fogen knew what days Tim Smith worked (days/shifts). Whether it was a conspiracy or not, I agree with you that the attempted call-back was an attempt to reach Tim Smith. That this was (at best) a hypothetical “citizen’s arrest” that blew up.

        Tim Smith was falling apart during testimony. I saw what we all saw: with TWO hands he couldn’t control the pointer. We know the records show he had responded to Fogen’s calls earlier.

        He did not have his gun out when he responded that night – correct?

        It just may be that George said earlier “Hey, I might even catch some guy at night when I’m patrolling – and you’ll get the collar” (credit for the arrest) And Tim Smith didn’t take it seriously – until the night a dead body was the result of Fogen’s “patrol.”

        I’m convinced Fogen was determined to get cred for apprehension of a “criminal,” especially after “the stucco guys” got credit and HE did not! So he was actively looking for the chance to become “an action hero.” Unfortunately (very) for Trayvon, Fogen had zero police training. I don’t think anybody imagined he would actually physically run a suspect” down.

        I don’t see an actual conspiracy with Tim Smith – but he knew Smith would be responding and I bet Fogen “joked” with Smith about the possibilities – and Smith didn’t take it all that seriously. Just thought Fogen was shooting the breeze.

        But Fogen took it seriously – and he went ahead and did it. Went bad. Yes – tried to tip off Tim Smith that the deal went bad.

        I don’t remember if/how Tim Smith had an excuse for entering the homicide scene without his weapon drawn – and the assailant was present — and armed. VERY STRANGE

  289. PerfectlyImperfect says: