Friday, July 5, 2013
Good evening:
Judge Debra Nelson summarily denied a defense motion for a judgment of acquittal this afternoon after the State rested its case.
The first witness called by the defense was the defendant’s mother, Gladys Zimmerman, who identified him as the person who uttered the terrified death shriek that is audible in the background of a 911 call. However, she admitted on cross examination that she had never heard him scream for help or cry out like that.
Her testimony contrasted sharply with testimony this morning by Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin’s mother, who identified him quietly and sorrowfully without equivocation.
The State rested its case after presenting the testimony of Dr. Bao, the Assistant Medical Examiner who performed the autopsy on Travon Martin. He described the gunshot wound as direct from front to back with the hollow point bullet passing through the front and rear wall of the right the ventricle before coming apart and scattering in different directions finally coming to rest in the pericardial sac.
He testified that Trayvon would have been conscious and in pain from 1 to 10 minutes but unable to move or speak during that time. His testimony contradicts the defendant’s claim that Trayvon sat up and said, “You got it,” or “You got me.”
It also makes it extremely unlikely that he did not know that Trayvon was dead before the police arrived, contradicting his claim on the Sean Hannity Show that he did not know that he’d hit Trayvon when he fired the shot and did not find out he was dead until someone told him at the police station later that evening.
The defendant’s claim on the Sean Hannity Show that he has no regrets, would not do anything differently, and everything happened according to “God’s plan,” is chilling in light of today’s testimony.
Judge Nelson recessed the trial for the weekend until Monday morning at 9 am EDT.
Between now and then, the defendant will have to decide whether to testify or remain silent.
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Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
New post up:
Will the defendant testify or not testify?
THE SCREAMS
THE BEST OF LLMPapa for you to enjoy!
I’ll go with his blood movement organ……”heart”….eh, ….not so much.
At least he didn’t smirk……or shit his pants…….that we know of anyway.
New post up:
Saturday morning open thread
Manue, from France! Thank you so much for checking in at 6:04 AM Eastern Standard Time. Welcome to the blog, it’s so cool to see more France!
Thank you Crane for your warm welcome and running this cosy place!
Yes I have my morning coffee with you, every day, gives me a good start for the day. And I want to be here, with you all, when the potted palm will be convict of 2nd degree murder!
the French live a lovely way of life,with UNIVERSAL healthcare for all,and very affordable medications,they need not worry as much as 50 million uncovered Americans,that pay through the nose for their meds….people of France care about each other imo
I am really becoming fond of France.
Dr. Vincent J. M. Di Maio is who the defense is expecting to call as their super expert witness.
I don’t care if they put God on the stand. It was a homicide any way you cut it.
I would suggest with the way the Fogdoit attempted to use God for his own justification for murder that God would not be a witness that even MOM would want to call….. Can you picture the lightning bolt from the sky hitting the defense table inside the courthouse?
Wow, what a vision! How fitting that would be.. Thanks for the link!
Exactly….just because he wrote a book, doesn’t mean he wrote “the book”
And it’s never a good idea to use God as an alibi……never.
Remember Tzar’s post: “…not even Satan himself” could explain why defendant did this. (He put it more eloquently)
That’s right !! I’m thinking Satan is pissed Fogen committed a murder because now he’ll have to deal with Fogens bullshit when he winds up there……I can see that scene……
First it was those damn Barbarians…..and those Roman Emperors, then the Vikings…….and the Middle Age killers…….then that Hitler nut…….all those gangsters but this guy……..and he won’t shut up.
Interesting. I wonder what he could testify about the gunshot wound that would in any way help the defense.
I did not study this at any length but I think Dr. DiMaio ran into quite a bit of resistance in his various assertions that excited delirium (as a cause of death) would mean that there had been NO POLICE BRUTALITY involved in situations where someone they had taken into custody or maybe just restrained for questioning ended up dead.
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2004febNAMEemail.html
Perhaps he’s the Texan forensic expert who gets called when some real suspicious guy gets stopped (by COPS) or chased down (by COPS) and ends up dead. Just sayin…
He sounds like a real winner.
Malisha~ I have no doubt he gets alot of business in Houston alone!
________________________________
Well, more than likely, he’s gonna stick to the State’s story because going with Fogen’s story will murder his career and he will lose credibility
The defense will try to turn back the claim of the local ME who said that TM possibly lived up to ten minutes after the shot, and also hope he will boost MOM’s claim that TM returned his hands back under his body after the Fogdoit got off his back. I don’t know why they feel this is so important, they still, if the Fogdoits claim that TM was on top, have yet to offer a realistic version of how TM ended up face down, he should have fallen backward onto his back as the Fogdoit scrambled out from under him and onto his feet….
Calling all cars, calling all cars: Saturday morning brings opportunity to speculate on next Defense wits.
SheLie? And will she dig her perjury hole deeper?
Osterman? Will he expand on how Fogen was going to “get lunches at SuperTarget” with only a gun and no money or credit cards?
Pops Z? Will he tell jurors how all America is racist but not his fam?
A quack or two to discuss Fogen’s boo-boos and what “might have been with the next blow?”
The mystery mentored kids to talk about Fogen’s softer side?
What about Fogen himself? Will “Dat Niggy Tugboat” be able to resist running his motor-mouth one more time? Bernie and associates must be licking chops at the prospect.
And who else will be on the hit parade?
Robbie Jr. and his amusing tweets.
Yeah!
Trained Observer, I hope one of the ones called will be J. Manilo (spelling?) aka MMA Man or the Photographer, I have been thinking some about his testimony and have concluded his story is not true to a large degree, I’ll outline a few of my problems with his story. He here’s a disturbance goes to his sliding glass door, decides to go out to investigate (approx. 30 feet from that point to his garage door) stops in garage to get flash light, goes to sidewalk (approx. 30 feet or so) to the back of his residence (approx. 30 feet) then to where the Fogdoit is located (approx. 35 feet) then asks question about calling 911 receives answer from Fogdoit, then opens phone activates camera part, aims takes photo, then aims and takes another photo, the last one shows the back of head with Fogdoit on phone. I attempted to do this scereno in similar fashion, and it took me almost a minute, I realize he is younger and possibly faster, but this causes me to think that perhaps, this witness is not being candid with his story and perhaps he is actually an accessory to the crime in some fashion….. it also indicates that the Fogdoit was on the phone for longer than has been thought? It seems that no matter who is called by the defense as a witness to the criminal acts of the defendant, he has some serious issues with their testimony to deal with…. IMO….
MMA Man would be great for the State to grill more extensively. for all the reasons you state. Plus I’d like to Jeremy and his coldfish wife back in the hot seat.
I hope that my words made just a little sense above, I am having a difficult time making MMA Mans time sequence work as he testified! Jeremy and wifey were on my list as well, her testimony varied so far from what she said when first interviewed a red flag went up immediately. There is a strong possibility that in the end there were several more people involved in the actual murder than have been charged, but that is speculation on my part! I am just having a hard time making their 2+2=3 or 5! Isn’t is strange that it never adds up to 4? Hmmm, wonder why…..
Crazy- you’re getting MMA John, and photog Jon, mixed up. MMA John heard scuffle, stepped out on patio and asked what was happening, said he was calling cops. Photog Jon M., wife heard commotion he told her to butt out…after gunshot he came outside via his garage.
KittySP, you are correct I did get the names mixed up but actually if you will read my post again, it is obvious (as I mentioned) I was talking about the photographer “Jon”! Pardon me for the confusion of having put “MMA Man” in the improper place in the time line… If you will consider the amount of time that I suggested was necessary to follow his alleged steps, it would seem as his story is not realistic and he possibly was there before the shot was fired..
Jon Manalo’s story is: After the gunshot he exited his house through the garage, walked north on RVC to the walkway, then west towards the T. As he rounded the corner he saw gz coming towards him, he was about 3 feet away from him.
He took a picture of the back of gz’s head, for which gz squatted down and was apparently on the phone. Next Jon Manalo walked toward Trayvon’s body (this could be when gz dropped the small flashlight at the T as evidence to later bolster his story) then he followed Jon Manalo back south to near Trayvon. That is when Ofc. Smith arrived [some 3 minutes after the gunshot] and gz says that this is when he holstered his gun, when he saw Ofc. Smith.
This means that he had his gun in his hand the whole time he was talking with Jon Manalo, Jon Manalo gave it nary a thought. Although they claimed to be complete strangers. Jon Manalo also called gz’s wife for him, how he accomplished this was never made clear. Nor did he ever state that he told Shellie where they were. So, did she know where they were because she recognized his voice?
In any event there’s another strange artifact that the police photographer captured, what appears to be a blood like stain on Manalo’s garage door frame. You can see it here, where I’ve done an enhancement to make it clear.
LOL – Great post, TO.
What if they hit the parade up with the grand marshall, the fogen himself. And limit the question to ‘is that you screaming?”
He says yes.
Is that you calling for help?
He says yes.
That’s all hour honor.
The state would be hamstrung on it’s range of questions, to just get one more ‘yes’ out of him, that it’s his ‘opinion’.
And some reasonable explanation of why he didn’t think his own voice didn’t sound like himself– because ihe has never heard himself screaming like that, never been in that situation before.
Isn’t that all GZ would really have to establish? And of course, have the jury believe him.
and the defense would re-direct with ‘Defense rests’ or at least move along without bringing fogen to the stand again.
Hello nice people on this blog
Long time lurker, 1st time poster, it’s the place I feel confortable after watching so much hate and non-sense on other places !
My son is the same age, 2 months older from Trayvon and when this story started to unravell, I looked at him walking on the rain, hoodie up and my heart broke for Trayvon and his family.
Another french (ex) lurker you were talking about, up in this post 🙂 as I’m living in the Basque Country, SW of France, at the border of Spain.
After the Pinella’s debacle, I swear to myself that I won’t follow another trial but, finding this place , the Professor and LLMpapa has made me feeling very good here, thank you and also all other great posters.
And If I was on the jury , I would vote guilty, without a shadow of a doubt, long before the trial stated, the first time I heard the screams,I knew they were from Trayvon and that zimbo was a cold blooded murderer
Et coucou aux français et montréalais, mon fils étudie à Montréal, nous y étions l’été dernier, j’adore le Québec!
Good morning Manue. Good to have your perspective. (Yes, that jury from Pinellas was amazingly dense. Surely this Seminole jury will be smarter) .
Welcome!
Like you, I was a longtime lurker of this blog and recently joined. There are a lot of nice people on this blog.
Yes, nice and with common sense, and mostly respectfull.
It’s very interesting for me to follow trials in the usa and particulary in Florida because of the Sunshine Law, it’s so different from what we have here.
In this case after watching the evidence and comparing to the b-ll–it displayed by the defense and the media, I had my strong opinion of what happened and I’m confident in this jury, they’ll see the truth when prosecution will wrapp the story, a full women jury…common sense will prevail 🙂
Hi and welcome to the blog.
@Manue
Welcome to the blog!
Il étudie où ?
A l’Uqam
aussie~ The greatest gift is POS fogen on the stand. I think our only hope of that is his own arrogance, same old shit attitude. He thinks he’s the “smartest of them all” delusional attitude. All I know is I fucking despise fogen & I have to give this posting up , for now ,so I can try to go back to sleep. What a real, focused world we bring together, all standing together to bring that kid murderer down. Please, insist on testifying, lying fogen. You don’t have the guts to tell the truth.
No, those two experts were disqualified at the Frye hearing from giving evidence.
Besides, it is so obviously NOT G, that it won’t need to be rebutted.
If they bring character witnesses to say what a great guy GZ is, they could bring truckloads of rebuttals.
If he gets on the stand and tells a different story they can get that rebutted. Even by witnesses who’ve already been on. Or by an expert to explain the timeline to show he could not have been where he said he was.
How about a prize for being last tonite? I’m joking. Seriously, I know, truly believe, fogens fucking nose injury came from recoil. For me this says it all. You would have to be an idiot not to think this, {from a jurors perspective }. Common sense, this theory should enter your mind. Please,let this theory get in front of the jury during rebuttal. I gotta go back to bed & sleep now. Wish me luck , 3, 4 even better, 5 more hrs. sleep. Nite all Mon. a.m. Hoodies Up
Couldn’t the state now use Riech and Tom as rebuttal witnesses now?
Simply have Tom testify that it’s not Fogen
and Riech that it is not Fogen
I wish, but no way . JN denied their testimony in the 1st place, for sure can’t come in during rebuttal. I believe those 2 expert men, but no go. Gotta try to go back to sleep, now.
No, their testimony was excluded at the Frye hearing.
Improperly, IMO.
BDL
can i ask a question about Mantei’s response to the aquittal hearing please? He said that they had witnesses that proved zimmerman held Trayvon, can someone tell me who as i haven’t been able to see all of the trial. thanks
There’s Rachel and Jean Sardyka combined which put this picture through
They both state that Fogen confronted Trayvon and then Trayvon is heard saying “get off”
There’s also the forensics and ballistics
thanks Jun, is that new evidence from Sardyka because i don’t remember anything like that in the initial statements? cheers
Just watched Sybrina Fulton’s testimony. She is a rock. I think she did better on the stand than I have seen anyone else. She did not fall for MOM’s crap, she would not get caught in his silly “logical conclusions”, and she was stern, forceful, and confident of the voice ID.
Both Trayvon’s mom and brother were examples of the type of teen that Trayvon was. He was in a middle class, well educated family with dedicated parents and family. This does not bode well for the “erratic violent thug” theory the defense is trying to push on the jury. Sybrina did very well, actually I think her obvious strong feeling and difficult emotion was exactly what the jury needed to see/hear from this grieving mother. She was not going to say that she “wished” Trayvon was not responsible for his own death, she KNOWS he is not. MOM’s stupid extreme spectrum questions he passes as “logical” are stupid and dangerous to his defense. When he narrows the “possibilities” to two single things, he is throwing in far more poker chips than he can afford. I hope his similar tactic bites him with Serino.
I did have a question, what is the questioning about IDing the button Trayvon was wearing have to do with anything.
I suspect in closing, they will be explaining the “lifting” of the button to shoot maybe?
Her dignity in the face of MOM’s smarm was extraordinary. To ask if she “enjoyed” anything related to the case of Trayvon’s death was beyond contempt.
I think you’re right about the button, KA. It will end up being a lynchpin for proving Fogen premeditated the shot to the heart.
@KA
To the photo button question, I hope this can answer your question. Please view the videos in sequence.
@KA
now that jahvaris has testified and been officially excused, he will be able to sit next to his mother during trial. i think this is a good thing.
what is repulsive though was o’mara’s questioning jahvaris about whether tracy is his biological father and the sundance cracker theory that trayvon was not at home with his mother full time. it sounds to me as if tracy and sybrina have done very well with joint custody and for anyone to attempt to make it seem otherwise is sickening. o’mara was playing to any racist leanings within the jury and it was obvious.
(Sorry if this has already been posted)
In a Freudian Slip o’Mara admits that Sybrina Fulton is the mother of “a murdered person”. At about the 5:05 mark of this video, O’Mara admits that Trayvon’s mother is the parent of a murder victim. This Freudian slip seems to make it clear that Mark O’Mara is well aware that his client George Zimmerman is guilty of murder.
This is what I do. So every murder case I have talked to the murdered persons mother, or father or sister or brother, this is what we do.
Well, that is interesting…
He could have said “son was killed”…
The prosecution should play this video during closing too and say that even his lawyer admits that it was murder.
Did I hear him say he enjoys this? And did I hear him say Ms. Fulton WANTS to hear her child’s voice in that state?
Well at least he see’s his client as I see him; a confessed murderer. So looks like he’s going to make another attempt to disparge Trayvon’s character. O’Dirty is beyond sick.
Yeah. He said he’s having fun or he’s having a good time or words something like that. It’s one thing to like your job but…dang, for a lawyer, he really does NOT have a way with words. And yeah, he said that Sybrina would want to hear her child’s voice because then that meant GZ did because if it was GZ’s voice, she’d have to admit that oh, whatever, it is just to damned ugly. He is an ass.
You know, they are looking and sounding more like the “thugs” that they try to portray Trayvon as being.
Like you said, it’s perfectly okay to enjoy your job, but hold a press conference and publicly say the things he said.
I would love nothing more than for one of the reporters to ask him if his client is faithfully taking his meds, or taking them at all for that matter.
I think we all know his client had psychological problems long before he murdered Trayvon. I remember BDLR asking his parents about it during the first bond hearing, and they said “No, not that we’re aware of”, or something to that affect.
But I think lawyers should be held to a higher standard than their client. There should be some protocols in place to have their heads checked before giving them a license, and periodically as long as they are practicing law. (smdh)
So “noblesse oblige” of him to say it’s OK with him if a mother wants to think the scream was her child. So sweet, such a nice guy and all like that. Not gonna blame thug’s mom for her little delusions that made her conclude that nobody shoulda killed her violent marauder of a son.
See how superior he sets himself up to be before commenting on his forgiveness for the woman who, he really believes, should have said,
I could kick his face in for saying that and I wouldn’t try to claim self-defense.
Preview of the defense case:
ay2z
I am not able to view the video. There’s some type of message that says, “This video contains content from Just for Laughs Festival and UMG, one or more of whom have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds”.
Here it is. The copyright notice means that whomever put the video together did not agree that there is copyright to the music. If they did that, there would simply be a little ad just before the comment section on where you can purchase the copyrighted song online.
Thanks Xena
Love it! Just learned me a new line dance. 🙂
Looks as though that’s what the duhfense will be doing in the coming week.
@Sleuth.
Song and dance? The defense has been doing that since October 2012. 🙂
(this video was introduced to us awhile back, and I’m sorry I can’t remember who it was, Rachel, SouthernGirl, Xena , sorry for not giving credit, it’s a unique little song and dance remix. The defendant seemed hapy enough for a party dancy with his first two star witnesses about to hit the stand.
Did you all notice how Fogen couldn’t resist taking peeks at the autopsy photos that were up on the screen during Bao’s testimony with the Sate? He was trying so hard to keep his head and body straight facing Dr. Bao.
@Laurie
He couldn’t help himself. He kept doing it. Reliving the event through photos maybe.
He is sick. Just like the other day when he couldn’t control himself and laughed at something his old professor said. Then he realized that he was the only person who found it funny and forced himself to stop.
@Laurie
Yes. He is sickening.
Yes, noticed. Would describe his demeanor as ‘calm’.
I wanted to say something else about the NEN call on his phone….I have been in telecom for a long time (2 decades) and used to work for the company that houses most of the ANI/ALI data for 911 nationally.
When the E911 Phase I and Phase II orders were being implemented for IP, VoIP or mobile calls, it was too difficult to work with the current system in most of the country that was used for wireline networks. The ANI/ALI system does not give much flexibility as it is it’s own network and equipment basically.
So the work around (which is still used in a great many areas) is the coding of the NEN number instead of using true 911. This is why they now record and treat NEN in a similar fashion to 911 where location is fixed. The calls come to the same dispatch center via the NEN number verses the 911 number that is auto routed.
If he called NEN, he would have received a live person upon connection of the call. This is my confusion. They either answered and he hung up on them (which would have prompted a call back) or he asked for an extension immediately which would indicate it was not an emergency call and therefore the recording stopped.
He HAD to have talked to someone live with the same NEN number he called and had to have asked for someone there or an extension. If he was on the phone for more than 20 seconds, he left a message most likely.
Selene saw him on the phone talking, that may be leaving a message.
BTW, switches do record in less than 1 min intervals, they just bill residential in rounded 1 min intervals. It is a business policy, not a technical capability.
Many high volume enterprises are billed for services in 06 sec intervals.
AMA records would have the exact call duration. They are processed differently for business service verses residential service.
thanks for the info
Johnathan Manalo, flashlight/picture guy, also said he saw him talking with someone on the phone when he first came out.
Remember he said he asked if he wanted him to call 911 and the confessed murderer told him, “No, I’ve already called them”.
However, it’s unclear to me if he meant the original NEN call or a subsequent one.
I listened to the 911 calls when they were first placed on the City of Sanford website. I remember there was one particular call from a male that I have not been able to track down.
The call was very short. It was a voice similar to John Good’s with similar expressions. The call ended rather disruptively. I listened to it over and over again. It was hard to tell if the person hung up after managing to get out a few words, and an expletive, or got disconnected.
I posted an inquiry to a couple of sites to see if anyone knew which caller it was. Of the few who responded, they thought I had mixed up the callers, or that I was mistaken.
Allegedly, Manalo and Jeremy never made calls to 911. To this day, I’m still thinking they did, or the confessed murderer did.
The NEN call was in GZ’s phone records for 19:18 something time stamp from Sprint.
It is for 1 minute I think, however, there is no recording released of that call. I find that odd…the only explanation would be he asked or requested a person or extension.
Okay, I was thinking maybe someone else actually used it to make the call.
So the call was made about 2 minutes after Jenna’s call.
Jeremy would have no reason to call 911 because Jenna did. Manalo’s wife witnessed to what she saw and heard. It was her Buttinski that led Jon to telling her to mind her own business until he heard the gunshot.
@Xena
I guess listening to Jenna’s 911 call gives me the impression that something more is not being told.
I really don’t like hearing the screams and yells but have listened to them more times than I care to in order to make out what Jeremy is saying in the background.
She repeatedly tells him to “get in here”. I can hear him saying, “Call the police” and “He said he was serious”.
This is all said just before we hear the screams, yells, etc., and the gunshot. IOW, I believe he was outside and saw what was happening.
@Sleuth.
Whatever Jeremy saw, it put him in a panic for the police to come and for him to look for a knife. I suspect the State didn’t call him to testify because his testimony is on that 911 call which the jury will have during deliberations to listen to as much as they want.
KA, our local sheriffs dept non emergency line answers first with an automated system that asks for an extension or dial zero for an operator. It also allows you to connect to any one of the deputy sheriffs that has a county owned cell phone by dialing the last four digits of that number. Is this a standard now for that type of system(?), I do not know, and perhaps someone in the Sanford area can check and see if their system worked like that at the time of this crime.
When I watched the Smiths portion of the trial testimony two points came up that do not make sense, Mz. Smith said she put Trayvon’s clothing into paper containers (bags) yet we found out that they were not actually in paper but instead they were in plastic “bio” bags, why and who had access to bags of that type? The second was the statement made by Tim Smith when he admitted he came onto the scene of a “shots fired” dispatch with his gun holstered, why did he violate what had already been claimed to be SPD policy? The only reasons that I can think of is that either he was really stupid, or he already knew the basic details of what had happened and had no fear of the encounter. I suggest that the call made by the defendant after he murdered Trayvon was to Tim Smith. What is the relationship between the Smiths and the defendant? There is something very important that is being left unsaid, but perhaps when the federal charges are filed it will come out…..
I just watched Mantei again. I love how he torments fogen about the Stucco guys! HAHA.
Once this trial is over I hope we occasionally discuss Trayvon. I realize the trial is not over yet but it is getting close and like most of you I have followed this case since it went National. He feels like one of my own sins and I do not want him to be forgotten by us. Does that sound crazy?
No, he is our son too. Many of us have nonwhite children who could very well be Trayvon. This is not a trial about this one case, this is about the danger our children are in if we cannot stop and make accountable those that profile them.
In addition, there is a larger discrimination at play here that is systemic and indirectly resulted in the death of this dear child.
@KA
Great post.
KA I have never hid the fact I am an older white lady. I can not imagine fearing for my children who just walked to the store. There are many evenings I go to bed ashamed to be white. Tonight will be another. However I have comfort in knowing we will talk about him even after this case is over. I would miss him terribly if we didn’t.
* I feel really bad I made a typo in my original comment Meant sons and said sins. I apologize.
I am also white. I do not feel guilty for being white, but I would feel guilty if I felt “comfortable” for being white. I am ashamed at the representations of those that are white and feel the injustices that exist in systemic bias need to be changed which can only happen at the advocacy of everyone. We all need to understand that injustice for some, is not justice for anyone.
I have four kids (of the 7) that are nonwhite. It has surely given me an experienced may not have had otherwise. I have been an advocate for gender and racial equality for a long time now…but having now nonwhite children have really given me the personal fear of the systemic biases that exist.
Me too.
You should not feel sorry for the actions of others
You can only be responsible for your own actions
The fact is, white people, especially males, are looked at as suspects too, so, this could god forbid, happen to people in your family too, and there are bad stereotypes for all people
Anyone can be a victim
You do not have to be a certain race to be helpful and empathetic to another person
China loaned the US lots of money and Asians are barely represented in the US
China helped Haiti during their disaster and there’s hardly any Chinese people in Haiti
I dont see how white people should be ashamed of being a white person
If you meet people who have bad perceptions of white people, why not just be a good person and change their perception?
Yes, I posted in the wrong spot, scroll down. Disappointed, you seem like a true, sincere person.
Well stated, KA!
No, you don’t sound crazy. I feel the same way, but I’ll still be stopping by after victory for the Fulton/Martin family is won. All they ever asked for was an arrest and a trial, nothing more. And God answered their prayer. Victory would simply be an added blessing.
After Mr. O’Brien testified, all I could say was, “Yay, lets hear it for the Stucco Guys”! Afterall, they did to help get those young men.
But then it wasn’t too long afterwards that I thought about how Trayvon might still be with his family, friends, and church community if the confessed murderer had not become so po’d and jealous of the “Stucco Boys”.
I guess his ego just couldn’t handle somebody other than himself getting all the glory for what was allegedly a problem in their gated community. Like Frank Taafee said, “He was fed up and wasn’t going to take it any more”.
This is the SPITE, part of the intent. You see, we have to realize normal thinking people like all of us aren’t anything thing at all like degenerate fogen. Please, I’m hoping & praying for the jury to see this. By the way, hateful ass liar Taafee is beyond belief. It’s scary to know that people like him exist.
@anita
Oh, you won’t get an argument from me about what a big liar Taafee is. Now we all know even “a broken clock is correct at least twice a day”, and having said that I believe Taafee was telling the truth when he told a reporter that the confessed murderer SHOULD NOT HAVE had a gun while doing NHW duty. Too bad we won’t get to hear him testify to that in court.
Taafee’s youngest son, William, who died a few years ago, was arrested for the same crime as the confessed murderer, Assault Against Law Enforcement Officers, and pretty much was given the same sentence.
This same son posted to his MySpace Page the he “loved committing HATE CRIMES for the fun of it”.
Taafee is so vile, his in-laws held a separate funeral/viewing for William because they wanted nothing to do with his sick, lying azz. His oldest son died last year. Talking about the sins of the father being visited upon the children, he has certainly been a curse to his family.
Sleuth- thus making GZ the only “son” he has left.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
He remains just a kid walking home
we can’t let this POS get away with vilifying then murdering a kid walking home
Please don’t worry,Trayvon will never be forgotten. I’m like you, I prefer to say mid. aged & white. I’m reading from the bottom up.We are not responsible for the other scum white people. When I was way younger I had these kinda guilty feelings because I was white. Not any more, I just realize it’s who you are & what a person stands for, & how you live your day to day life. I hope you read my reply, I see it’s hrs. later,still heart felt & true. Disappointed, this is for you, Think i posted in the wrong space
I agree and thank you. I just can’t get passed Trayvon’s age and the fact he was/is a good kid.
We could always send him letters to prison! Reminding him that he’s there because a dead kid did tell a tale? That should be a cheery thought to keep him warm at night.
I’m having a full sheet cake made for our Celebratory Conviction BBQ that will look like a cinder block wall in the back and have black cell bars. In print across the entire cake will say “35 to Life” The guy who does some cakes for us at the store asked about it and seems he’s a member of Team Trayvon and said he’d like to attend and the cake is on the house.
With that, I’m sending a picture of the cake to Fogen in prison and to any Zidiot of record if they want to continue the Zidiocy. Maybe we can send a slice to The Moron Man with a picture since we can’t send food to Fogen in prison. Maybe we can put a border of Skittles on it !! Yeah……that’s the ticket !!
Racer- you are awesome! Yes send a picture signed “with love from the Scheme Team and Trayvonites”
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
They want to make Trayvon the bad guy and Fogen the victim…..not on this watch…..This could be his last Saturday of freedom…….next to last at best…….Remember the countdown….105 days…..96 days….85 days……then Lonnies countdown clock…..
I remember the day I got the e-mail with Sean Cunningham’s petition…..man that seems like a lifetime ago. The 1st bs interviews with Robbie the racist and RZ lying sr…..Hannity…..
So……let us eat cake !!
I think it’s pretty clear that the self-defense claim has been effectively neutered. The real question for the jury is the issue of depraved mind which is necessary for murder 2. I’m satisfied but the real question is if the women on the jury agree.
Manslaughter or Murder 2 is fine either way
I do feel he was hostile and depraved though
He showed it but aggressively stalking Trayvon and confronting the boy while calling him a “fucking punk” and “an asshole who always gets away” and then he murdered the boy and acted like Trayvon was nothing and attempted to frame the boy
Sounds pretty depraved to me
In the State’s opening statement, Trayvon was introduced (or re-introduced) to the jury as a kid, who just turned 17, walking to the store for candy and pop, who was running from a creepy guy who chased him into the dark alleyway.
Given that accurate picture, I don’t think any of the jurors will have any difficulty identifying with the victim. They will easily be able to put themselves (or see their children) in Trayvon’s shoes, and I doubt any of them would have trouble seeing that the killer began following with pre-conceived feelings of ill-will, hostility, and depravity even though he knew nothing about Trayvon.
Good grief, I hope those jurors do not see lack of furious manner in the recordings as being lack of depraved mind. Otherwise, you can murder anyone in Florida as long as you act like a robot.
Menacing is just as scary as frantic.
There is something that I have really learned since I have been back in the US. There is a certain element in this country that doesn’t seem to understand that the majority of people in this country have moved beyond their brand of hatred. There is an element that lives in a perpetual state of cluelessness.
Yes.
sophia33 writes
what you say is true. what they fail to acknowledge is that they are an ever shrinking minority and that trend will continue. if they understand it at all, they become even more desperate.
omara said in the motion for acquittal that from the autopsy report it is clear that zimmerman didn’t even attempt to land a blow….isn’t that bad for the defense….that he didn’t even try to fight back, he lay there like a wet noodle and the only way he tried to defend himself is by a fatal gunshot. Sounds like he had other options…
Well, you know the mighty 158 lb. Slimm had the 207 pound MMA-trained bouncer’s arms pinned with his knees. (That’s your cue Amsterdam…)
My 23 yr old son watches MMA, is on the forums and has sparred a few times at Jujitsu and MMA gyms (and he has never been in a fight in his life…well except maybe with his brother…:)
I asked him about this weight difference and positions, he said there is NO WAY (his words) that the fight went down the way that GZ said. The weight difference is significant…very significant and the positions that he stated are not ones GZ would have even allowed himself to even be in with cursory MMA knowledge with someone that light and skinny and, in fact, very easy to get out of with any training (considering his weight advantage).
BTW, I noticed on the MMA gym application that GZ was 255 upon entering…
If he was 207, he obviously made some strides in weight loss through practice, exercise, classes.
To say he was “obese” is absurd…he had lost a lot of weight and ask any person with any muscle mass, BMI is very misleading and inaccurate.
207 lbs on a 5’7″ frame with small bones is obese.
But a drop of almost 50 lbs over the past 6/12 months would show he was getting in shape at that MMA gym.
I think the defense is saying that he was obese and Trayvon wasn’t so Trayvon was the more agile athlete…
The weight difference is huge in fighting. GZ had the advantage regardless of BMI.
@KA. I remember watching a movie once that was made in India, and they executed by having an elephant step on the person. So the defense claiming that GZ had a disadvantage is an insult to intelligence. He could have broken Trayvon’s ribs and smothered him by sitting on him.
Now I’m confused…..you want SheLie to step on Fogen as punishment ???
@racerrodig.
(gulp) ROFLMAO!
Being agile won’t help you stay “mounted” on someone who has muscles, and two free arms, and two free legs, and training at fighting. At the very least the heavy guy on the bottom can plant his feet on the ground, buck his midriff and butt UPWARD fast and throw you way the hell OFF him. But did Fogen claim to be yelling “get off get off”? Nope. He claimed he lay there and got pummeled and then … kinda shimmied so he could take his punishment on grass rather than cement. I’d say either it was sexual masochism or a lie.
Yep, he talks like the guy on top of him weighed 300lbs.
The fight certainly did not “do down” as Mr. Zimmerman said. However, there’s a HUGE difference between a real fight and the gym, which makes your son a poor expert.
Real fights — especially at night, on slippery ground — are mostly grabbing, slipping, sliding, and rolling around with very few meaningful punches landed. Not that people don’t get hurt, but they usually don’t hurt get very badly. Take by way of one example, the lack of serious injury to Mr. Zimmerman.
And that lack of resemblance to the sort of fight you see in movies very specifically includes people who’ve “studied martial arts.”
Men love to talk about how ready they are for physical conflict, but — not to put to fine a point on it — almost all of them are full of crap. The whole “MMA” thing as applied to this case is almost certainly fantasy.
BDL
BDL~ LOL! No, not too fine a point at all! All bluster and bravado. Such is the male of the species.
________________________________
Your son probably also knows that the hoodie was a great disadvantage in a fight. Stronger, heavier shorter fighters have a leverage advantage. So the first logical thing to do is to grab the hoodie of the lighter opponent in order to have control. The only option for the smaller guy, once the hoodie is grabbed, is to lash out in an attempt to break the grip. IMO, GZ was holding the hoodie in an attempt to detain “the suspect”. T tried to break away and a tug of war ensued wherein GZ pulled so hard that he fell backward by the sidewalk and pulled T on top. At this point T flayed with his arms and tried to pull back. GZ held firm and as he rose to his feet pulled his gun and shot T in a fit of rage, petulance or stupidity.
Even if GZ was “obese” by medical standards, we was much stronger and better leveraged by gym and grappling standards.
BMI charts also note that there are lots of other factors that need to be considered. BMI is just a “quick n dirty” ball park way of expressing things, it is not to be taken as gospel.
For his 5′ 7.5″ height, they expect him to have less muscle mass than a weightlifter or bodybuilder. thus they call him “obese”, simply because his weight/height ratio is outside the range they expect for “normal” people who do not weight train.
Besides the fact that “obese” does not equal helpless. Many very heavy men are still very strong and active as well.
@lonnie
my ‘smallest’ brother is 6’2″ and weighs in around 250…. he may technically be overweight, but i assure you NO ONE wants to mess with him. and you’d just have to see the other brother with a grim set to his mouth to head in the opposite direction. but, he did have a difficult time getting into the army because of their silly standard BMI chart. he finally insisted on getting it assessed properly and was well within limits. genetically, we are large boned and well muscled, even if somewhat overweight at times.
The only thing well muscled about gz is his head!
“The only thing well muscled about gz is his head!”
So my thought about him being a “bird brain” makes him a “big time bird brain” or a “flighty muscle head?”
My grandfather referred to moronic bullies a “muscle heads”
Well then, in that case it’s confirmed, he’s a birdbrained muscle head.
I discussed it yesterday with my brother, who practiced judo for more years than I have. He likes to play devil’s advocate, but he couldn’t come up with an explanation for how they moved from position 1 in John Good’s drawing to position 2, other than the 2 I mentioned. They either rolled, which would’ve put GZ on top or Trayvon was trying to get up and GZ hung on to his clothes.
I noticed Mantei mentioned a rolling action in his argument yesterday. I don’t know how the prosecution is going to enter evidence that Good’s testimony is bullshit in their rebuttal. Either John Good has to be put on the stand again, or they will have to use Trayvon’s pants to make a point about the position Trayvon was in during the struggle.
IMO, I dont think that matters because
1) It is obvious by Fogen’s targeting and aggressive profiling and aggravated stalking of Trayvon, that Fogen instigated the whole entire event.
2) Fogen was seen in a standing position, down the back pathway, by Selene, whom also testified to a chase that started even more south, toward the final destination where Trayvon was killed. This means Fogen lied about going back to his truck because Selene’s testimony is impartial as she has no connections, and it fits the evidence at the scene.
3) Now we factor in Rachel’s testimony which also fits with Selene’s testimony. The cellphone also proves the altercation happened downsouth on the back pathway, because it was connected to earbuds before being knocked away when Fogen confronted and attacked Trayvon. This supports the aggressive profiling and stalking of Trayvon. Mona’s testimony also supports a chase.
4) This is where Jean Sardyka’s testimony comes into play. It connects with Rachel, and Selene’s testimony. This proves that Fogen, aggravated stalked Trayvon, profiled and confronted the boy.
5) If we are to believe Jon Good, we know from testimony, that Fogen started the whole altercation, so either (a) Fogen attacked Trayvon by grabbing him and pulling him down and Trayvon was trying to get Fogen off him (b) Fogen took Trayvon down, and Trayvon was able to get to top position and tried to escape.
6) Jean Sardyka comes into play again because she testified with Manalo’s wife, that they saw Fogen on top of Trayvon when Fogen shot Trayvon. Jean also testifed that the screams and yelps sounded like a young boy to her. This means Fogen had Trayvon pinned down, and was in no danger of any threat at this point. Fogen is also 50 pounds heavier than Trayvon. Then he murders the boy.
So considering all the evidence, Fogen aggravated stalked and profiled Trayvon, as Trayvon unarmed tried to flee, Fogen went after unarmed Trayvon while Fogen was armed, and Fogen instigated and accosted the boy initiating the struggle, and then Fogen was not in danger of anything when he murdered Trayvon
If you neutralize Good’s testimony, the only person left to back up GZ’s statements is GZ himself.
Jon Good does not back up Fogen’s statements though
All he said was he thinks he saw Trayvon on top, no blows thrown, not sure what was going on, heard no blows, was not sure who could be screaming, could be Fogen…
The state should have dug more but it’s not a case breaker
John mfing Good is a liar. Bernie can kick his ass, impeach him, 2nd time around. I hope this happens.
All the prosecution needs to do is put John’s drawing on the screen and ask him to tell how they moved from position A to position B. He is either going to provide a statement that would show that the person on top was not in control the entire 10 seconds John was watching, or he is going to obfuscate by claiming he couldn’t tell because it was to dark and by doing so impeaching his claims about how much else he could’ve seen, or his statement will be as physical impossible as the explanation how GZ was able to get his gun out of the holster inside his waistband, with Trayvon’s knees in his arm pits.
what I find off about Good’s testimony is, he claims to have been out there for 10 secs but doesn’t recall hearing those ‘gut wrenching’ screams for help…he said he heard someone saying “help me”. There was at least 10 sec of screaming on Jenna’s 911 call before the gunshot.
Especially being trained in MMA and having been a bouncer. He is just a liar. It can’t be said enough AFAIC – HE IS A LIAR – LIAR, LIAR, LIAR!!!!!
Don’t you understand??? Trayvon was wearing a… (gasp) Hoodie!!!! and armed with a SIDEWALK! It is not possible to comprehend the enormously unfathomable fear that would instill in the most heroic souls on the planet.
Kids who walk around armed with unlicensed sidewalks need to be stopped! PERIOD! [does this really need an emoticon?]
Earlier today, I heard Matt Gutman (ABC) say something about Trayvon’s shoes being missing. Anyone know anything about that?
TIA
Missing from when?
White sneakers were in the photos.
I thought so, although I never saw them today but I do remember Dr. Bao saying something about them. Strange that Matt Gutman would say that.
maybe im dense,but when foagy figured out this was a kid,WHY did he pull the trigger?
He knew it was a kid before he even chased him – when he called and they asked his age he said late teens.
AND he knew that he was unarmed.
true,than this was an EXECUTION…that is very powerful evidence what you just said.
The “flavor” of the HOA was that home prices were down, preventing anymore refinancing. The simpletons focused on blacks being the cause, because young blacks were bringing crime to the hood. Because they don’t understand either finance or politics they did not know the true cause of the decline.
So what gz understood was the aura that said he could become a hero by apprehending or preventing the escape of one young black male. He was in dire financial straights and needed to do something quick. He believed / envisioned that. the town folk would lift him on their shoulders and do a victory lap with him.
While the clamor for his arrest was growing, he also saw online, some support building among the SYG/Gun/racist crowds and decided to tap into it, it produced some startling results. He then refused to meet with his lawyers, out of fear that the money might be taken away. So, in preparation for the bond hearing, he secreted his live passport and much of the cash horde, in hopes of running away. But bail conditions prevented that and soon his cash horde was discovered. His bail was increased and his second passport was taken away, Shelly was arrested and charged and admitted to bail herself.
Now all gz has is Omar and West and they’re not doing such a great job, since their antics are putting off the jury, without providing much, if any probative exculpatory evidence. Just a random series of “alternative explanations” that cannot be connected into any reasonable view of how that night might have proceeded from beginning to end. As in: “If he wasn’t doing this, then how did he get there to do that?” or “If the kid did this to him, how come there’s no evidence of it?” He expect the jury to believe his claims without proof, yet he demands that the prosecutor prove that their proof isn’t faked. Believe me, that is not a good equation to have to rely on for the next 30 years of your life.
I think he shot him because he knew he was going to be in big trouble for detaining a kid who was screaming bloody murder. An alive Trayvon could tell Law enforcement he was assaulted. Dead men/kids tell no tales. Fogen thought he would be believed.
he just ended his life,also in a painful,cruel manner
Bingo!
Not only did he know he was a kid, he also admitted to Serino and Singleton he didn’t think Trayvon was armed, and therefore was not in fear of his life.
I meant to say the confessed murderer told Serino and Singleton he was not in fear of his life because he did not think Trayvon had a weapon.
@Sleuth – But then contradicts that story during the follow up interviews…when they ask why didn’t he just tell Trayvon he was with NW when he was asked if he had a problem…GZ says because he was AFRAID and didn’t want to confront Trayvon. Also claimed to be afraid to walk back to his truck without the flashlight. Singleton called him on that too…when she pointed out he wasn’t worried about that when walked the path looking for the address.
@KittySP
I totally agree. He has told so many lies, it’s very hard to keep up with them all. Just like he didn’t know that was Jenna Lauer’s house, right there on the corner heading towards the “T”.
Heck, according to her testimony, the fight seems to have started on the side of her house, moving around to the “T”, then her and John’s backyards.
She said she knows him. She’s on the HOA, he was NHW Captain, but he did not recognize her house as he ran, walked, or skipped by it in pursuit of Trayvon?
I believe Jenna Lauer is not telling the whole story. And I don’t know why her husband Jeremy hasn’t been called to testify.
Professor said the some jurors “cherry pick” during deliberations, these are the exception to the rule, but most do not.
However, because of all his lies, before this jury can really get started, they will have to do a whole lot of “cherry picking” during the deliberations before they can get down to the bare bones of what the truth is.
absolutely he knew that was J & J’s home…just like Mantei said, GZ claimed to know everyone and the kids…yet not one of them testifying said they knew him, except maybe Jenna. I don’t know how those detectives kept a straight face in reenactment when he acted as if the homes facing the rear were only ones he could get an address from.
True… But he also claimed that he was in fear of the kid, when he needed a reason for not identifying himself. Go figure!
he has a depraved mind that bore ill will and hatred
Whoa…Fogen wrote in his homework assignment that he wanted to become a Police Officer because he wants ti hunt fugitives so they don’t get away??
Where is that in evidence? Does anyone know?
Didn’t Mantei, in his rebuttal to the request for acquittal, say that was the first sentence in one of GZ’s homework assignments? Entered into evidence along with his request to join the police academy, request for ride along and other evidence from his “education”.
Yes it was in his very first assignments for one of his classes. It is in evidence, but I do not know if it will be released to the public.
@disappointed — if something is entered into evidence, it all becomes available to the public at some point. trials are public record.
IIRC, I think Mr. Mantei said the confessed murderer wanted to be a U. S. Marshall because he wanted to “hunt down” fugitives.
@Moore
Yes.
For the person who wanted to know when he said about hunting fugitives from homework assignment, listen forward from 45:55
A thing of beauty.
@Moore
🙂
I fully expected JN to find Fogen guilty as soon as Mantei ended today. Yep, I think he is that good. He makes sense, he is not emotional and he is not covering for a lying CAC asspig.
@disappointed
Yes. He is a well spoken attorney. Concise, connected the dots, made direct points that we could understand. Excellent work.
Here is the Transcript for that part——
Mantei (beginning at timestamp 0:44: 53)
@YAHTC
Thank you !!!
Mantei displays tented fingers – confidence.
@Two Sides
Yes totally agree.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/155532-george-zimmerman-wanted-to-hunt-fugitives-prosecution-says-in-trial/
Don’t know about evidence but I just looked this up
@rachael
thanks for the article link. i’m checking it out, but the first thing that leaped off the page was the defendant’s jacket and the bizarre looking sewn in darts to accommodate his growing manbewbs.
now, i’ll get to reading 😉
It was placed in evidence at the same time as the rest of his school stuff, full transcript redacted to show only the two courses.
It was also identified by the professor, but not read
I was just watching Mantei after defense asked for acquittal and he said it. If you to go Xena’s blackbutterfy7 site she has video of todays trial. It is Fogen’s homework assignment, it was entered into evidence on Wednesday. I don’t believe we get to see it though. Maybe someone else knows.
I was just re-listening/watching that part. Mantei said that on GZ’s first assignment, on the first line, he said he wanted to take the course because he wanted to be a U.S. Marshall and “hunt” fugitives.
CAC wants to be a cop, no…a U.S. Marshal, no…a judge. Maybe he’ll get to police the toilets in prison.
@Drudo
Yep caught that also.
He would be happy to, I’m sure. Anything – as long as he’s in charge.
@Rachael. Kinda telling that GZ wanted any position of authority that he could abuse; U.S. Marshall to “hunt” fugitives; cop; attorney, judge; prosecutor. The question is if he saw others as always bad, or if he was hoping to help the bad guys get away if he could benefit from extortion?
Osterman tried extorting money from the car dealership in order to return a stolen vehicle. He was GZ’s mentor.
@ChrisNY.
Croakerqueen123 records the videos and uploads to Youtube. Her work is very much appreciated. After a few days and with an average of 5 videos per day, it can be a bit of a hunt for a video for the right day.
So, I decided to embed the videos with separate blog pages for each day of trial. This weekend I hope to get up the witnesses for each day along with the video they are on.
Xena- Thank you for putting the videos on your blog and it’s great the way you separated them.
Croakerqueen123 does a great job recording them. The quality is superb, I can watch them on my phone and hear everything clearly without buffering issues too.
Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful contribution.
@parrot. Lonnie Starr maintains a site for resources of documents and videos. It has a search engine for the site.
Trayvon Warriors also maintains a site for court documents starting earlier this year.
Then there is axiomanesia where discovery documents, the clubhouse videos, and witness statements are maintained. They also have a Youtube channel.
Hope I didn’t miss anyone.
YES, it is in evidence. Find it in Mr. Mantai’s response to the defense motion to give fogen a free pass.
Mantai asked for the court clerk to pull the exhibit, then said didn’t need it as he could quote from memory.
Did the jury hear that he wrote this in his assignment?
The jury was there.
No they weren’t. JOA arguments before the Judge only.
Oh, sorry. I thought the jury was there when MOM asked for the acquittal after the State was through. I wasn’t watching the feed at that time.
@deborah moore
the jury was not present when the arguments for acquittal were heard in court. they will have access to this evidence and i am sure it will be brought up during upcoming phases of the trial so that they are not left to seek it out themselves.
There’s a long list of stuff for closing, all to tie things up neatly in a big glossy bow.
Well, I hope that closing has some of what Mantei’s was using in his argument today cause he rocked.
You could see he had a list – he was crossing them off as he went. We may hear something very similar at closing. It will be beautiful, as that was today. And when he came right out with only two people know, one is dead and the other a liar, I wanted to stand up and cheer!
I think anytime I’m feeling down, I’m going to listen to that. It was like a beautiful aria. Very inspirational.
I have a question, the phone records were released a few days ago from GZ. It shows a call to the NEN number at 7:18ish…where is the recording for that call?
If there is no recording, then he was asking for an extension or someone specific in the police department I would suspect.
A call would only appear on a phone record if someone at the other end answered — or an automated “enter the extension of the person you wish to reach.”
Yes it is called “off hook” in the telecom world. That is terminating switches indication (and the originating port) to start the call recording.
Something answered, but either he did not get answer on the extension or he did not request dispatch as he did the first time.
The NEN call was not to report the happenings or he would have spoke to someone and the call would have recorded.
Now, if the SPD internal communications system has records of which extensions are dialed and when, then that could show something interesting… I don’t think that’s going to happen though.
GZ called NEN but we don’t know if he called NEN. Indeed, that number gets you to a list of options. If he wanted to get NEN, he probably did not wait long enough to get a connection.
So he obviously did not call the NEN dispatch as he did the first time or someone would have answered and the call recorded, correct?
The only other conclusion is that he selected a different option than dispatch.
Do you think that fogen knows Timothy Smith’s extension?
bettykath
I don’t know for sure if he knows Ofc. Smith’s extension or not, but I find it rather odd that Ofc. Smith stated he arrived at the crime scene because he got lost once he arrive at RATL.
The thing is, Ofc. Smith had responded to the last 3 calls to RATL, all made by the confessed murderer, leading up to Trayvon’s murder. According to evidence, he was the first officer dispatched.
Ofc. Smith, along with Sgt. Raimondo, and a few others, were also a part of the cover up of the brutal beating of Sherman.
sleuth says
i thought it was smith and ayala, not raimondo… now will have to check.
Ofc. Smith has responded to gz’s calls more than once, so he probably knew it. Maybe even had his extension noted in his contacts list or in notes on his phone. Not hard to do at all, since when you open contacts there’s space for a cell phone and a home phone, he could put the ext. in the home phone box.
KA
I think you’ve hit it on the nail!
Hmmm… If memory serves, there was a call in the NEN records that we put down as a clerical mix up, could this out going call then be that call?
I highly doubt it. How would an internal clerical error be reflected as an outgoing call to NEN/SPD on GZ’s phone records?
Professor:
What sort of case do you think the defense will mount? What kinds of witnesses might they call, and what do you think are the odds they’ll call any in any of the categories?
Let’s assume that they won’t call any character witnesses for Z-CAC so as not to open the door for W9. And let’s assume MOM has convinced GZ not to take the stand…
MOM said today since the State has already introduced testimony on GZ’s background — the coursework etc. — he’s going to try to get testimony on TM’s background admitted. What leeway, if any, do you think JN will allow there?
Some experts it seems to me they might bring in:
A medical expert to rebut Dr. Rao, and claim GZ’s injuries were indeed evidence of a serious beat-down…
A medical expert to challenge Dr. Bao’s testimony, perhaps to expand on the argument that the DNA was contaminated or washed away or whatever…
Testimony to undermine the general credibility and competence of Dr.s Rao and Bao (both of whom would seem to be a tad eccentric, if nothing else)…
SPD officers and/or EMT’s to testify how beat up GZ appeared at the scene (e.g. Mike Brandy)…
A Knox-like ‘ballistics expert’ to claim that the gap between TM’s garments and body proves TM was on top at the time of the shot…
Especially in regards to the last example… Do you think the State may be gambling that such pro-Z testimony will be introduced, and holding back some of their evidence or experts (e.g. Dale Gilbreath) for rebuttal? Do you think MOM might suspect such a strategy and hold back any experts that featured prominently on his witness list for fear of a damning rebuttal?
West has indicated the Defense is going to introduce some kind of timeline that supports GZ’s version of events (now that, i have to see…). What kind of witness would they need to call to establish that, or might they do as BDLR did with his timeline and just enter the exhibit w/o comment in preparation for closing arguments?
I’m sure I’ve missed some things… What else can you imagine the defense bringing in to support their case???
I think if they were able to account for the missing 2 (actually 4) minutes, that would go a long way towards supporting their case. Looking at the current situation, with Judge Nelson denying the judgment of acquittal, putting John Good and Jenna Lauer on the stand seems like a better move than it first appeared. The defense probably doesn’t have another witness in their pocket who was there and can help, so they are left with experts. But experts can be dismissed as saying whatever you pay them to say, so if the defense produces nothing but slick experts to try and tell the jury about how beat up Zimmerman was, then I don’t see how that helps with the timeline.
Zimmerman’s two biggest problems are that his story is inconsistent and ridiculous, and his timeline is missing minutes where he had plenty of time to get back and has yet to account for it. No expert can help there.
Honestly, I think Jenna and John are both looking out for number 1, playing it right down the middle, and won’t give the Defense any more than they already have. I’d guess they’d be as guarded and non-commital as Defense witnesses as they were for the State, and that it would actually hurt the Defense case for the jury to see that…
Had he intended to go back to his truck, he should have been there more than half a minute before his NEN call ended. Thus the conclusion is drawn that he was not heading back to his truck. He was doing something else and, whatever that something else was, it was pretty important to him because he was doing it in pouring rain.
You’d certainly think that in the rain, he’d want to get back to the shelter of his truck but, instead we find him minutes later with a dead unarmed child on the ground and him telling some improbable story of the kid trying to kill him?
“Had he intended to go back to his truck, he should have been there more than half a minute before his NEN call ended.”
Lonnie~ That’s a very concise, succinct, powerful point! This should be one of the biggies for the Prosecution to point out.
I hope the State puts together the “Reenactment” video with the NEN call playing concurrently (LLMPapa did this way back when — some of his best work!). It clearly shows that (1) fogen was still on the line with NEN when he supposedly got over to RVC and didn’t give dispatch the address, (2) was still on the phone with NEN when he reached the T where he claims he was attacked from non-existent bushes, (3) he had ample time to return to his truck while still on the NEN call.
The State could show both pieces of evidence concurrently, then point out that it can’t explain what DID happen, but it shows what DIDN’T HAPPEN — so WHY did Zimmerman have to lie about what really happened?
(The stops in the reenactment video above have been edited out.)
Thank you Medicinebear, hadn’t seen this one and bravo to LLMPapa. This reminded me about a question I have. The defense really seemed concerned about the “possible” dna on the gun and that the rain might have washed off Trayvon’s. I don’t get it, fogen NEVER says he touched the gun, so why go there?
Here’s the full “stress test” interview In it he claims that Trayvon grabbed the gun away from him and he had to wrestle it back. Bye bye gz, goodbye!
And Osterphoole confirmed it and stated in unambiguous terms in his book……nothing like jumping on the bandwagon of lies….for fun and profit.
The state has three more strategies to play.
No one can figure what the defense will do, since they’re playing with fantasy and games.
The duh-fence’s entire strategy is “NUH UH!”.
I think the prosecution has some idea, and can retool their strategy on the fly.
I don’t see how the defense can legitimately argue that the prosecution’s introduction of evidence of coursework to refute GZ’s claim on Hannity that he didn’t know anything about the SYG law opened the door to presenting evidence of Trayvon’s background. Mark O’Mara did argue something to the effect that the prosecution was treating GZ’s desire to earn a college degree as a prior ‘bad act’, but that was ludicrous.
Not as much as the statement that GZ was a “good student” today…
actually he wasn’t except in the classes that he took an actual interest in…
That’s what I’m thinking. Kind of forcing them to play their hand so they can take ’em down.
Whonose asked:
How ’bout ‘knees in armpits’ defense?
I just watched video of Sybrina and Jahvaris Fultons’ testimony this morning. Was anyone else here struck by how CAC was looking down his nose at each of them as they testified?
CAC held his head tilted back, so that he literally looks down his nose at them. Did anyone else notice, or am I making this up? It jumped out at me.
Did CAC do that with other witnesses?
I noticed that. Just confirmed for me that Fogen (now that I know what that means) is a psychopath. Assume for a minute everything that Fogen said is true, how can he not have compassion for the woman of the child you killed? How? He shows no compassion at all for the Martin family.
About a year ago, I had to go to court with my mother after a boy that she hired to do yard work broke into her house and stole thousands of dollars worth of jewelry. The kid was strung out on drugs and was sentenced to 30 days in jail and 3 years probation. When we walked out of the courthouse, his father broke down in tears seeing his son carted off to jail. He was inconsolable. Did his son belong in jail? Absolutely. However, both my mother and I had compassion for the father because he was heart-broken. We even spoke to him for a minute and talked to him about this possibly being the thing that helped turn his sons life around.
Fogen’s apparent inability to show any compassion for the Martin Family and his Father’s book, which showed even less compassion, illustrates someone who is very vile and cold-hearted. Even if all of his lies were true (which they aren’t), it still shows a cold individual who can’t have any compassion for this child’s family. The same applies to Fogen supporters.
groans I too just finished watching it and I totally agree. He totally pisses me off. This family is better than him any day of the week and he has the nerve to look down on him.
I noticed that too. He sticks his chin out and leans his head back, which accentuates the downturn of the corners of his mouth. He did this also when he was first arraigned, but with his eyes wider than now. The camera did not show him doing that for Osterman or his family.
Hey Groans!
No, it’s not you at all. I also noticed it, each time. He also did it to Miss Rachel Jeantel, Dr. Rao, and Dr. Bao. But it was like he was in “datniggity” mode when Jarvis and Sybrina Fulton were on the witness stand.
At one point, as his attorney’s attentively listened to Dr. Bao under re-direct, he starred at the door to his left, the evidence room (I think that’s what they called it). He refused to look at him at all. Same with the autopsy photos.
To me, it was more than just the starring, he looked like a hawk getting ready to pounce down on his prey. At times he looks like a lizard. I really believe he could be a shift-shaper.
I’m sure you noticed in the Hannity interview how his chest stuck out, and his reptilian smile broaden real wide after he said “No” when Hannity asked him if he ever heard of the SYG prior to 2/26/12.
And when Hannity stated, “So other than the witnesses who only saw a part of what happen, you’re the only witness to what actually occurred”, the confessed murderer nodded his head yes, and had that same slimy smile on his face, looking like the cat who swallowed the canary.
Wouldn’t you just love for someone to knock that stupid grin off his face! That man(using term very loosely) seriously gives me the creeps. I can totally understand Trayvon’s fears. If I ran into him on a dark street I would be scared.
I wish like hell they could figure out how to make the camera in the courtroom stop him from looking directly at me.
One day while he was looking at me I told him, “Look at me again, and I’m gonna biatche slap you”. I guess he heard me loud and clear. 🙂
He is creepy, and so is his duhfense team. They all look like creeps. This creep really believes he’s not going to do a day in the pokey. He really believes it. Now, let’s just see if he can get his homies to serve his sentence this time.
I know. I swear he is looking right at me too. I ask him why he did that and why he lied. He never tells me.
@Rachel’
ROTFLMBO!!!
@Rachel
Rule #1: Never read any humorous messages from Rachel with your mouth full of food or drink!
Guuuurrrrlll……..I just coughed out and spill the tea I was drinking while laughing just too hard at your comments.
“Just because I’m paranoid don’t mean they ain’t out to get me”. 🙂
He sits there with those obnoxious faces and I swear he’s gaining pounds by the second. What is it, a combination bullet proof vest / pool inflatable ??
Not only that, I defy them to blabber on about his vest and death threats since there are none.
@Racer
What is it, a combination bullet proof vest / pool inflatable ??
LMAO!
I’m seeing a lot of reptilians at that duh-fence table. Seriously.
@MedicineBear
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Just think about how professor, and so many of us thought The Wiester (weasel) was going to step aside because of how he was looking during jury selection.
Then once a jury was selected, and the trial began, all of sudden his physical appearance changed. O’Dirty still has the “black soot” aura he has had since day one.
What occurred in the courtroom between The Wiester and witnesses, such as Miss Rachel Jeantel, Dr. Rao, Dr. Bao, and a few others, was not just a battle of egos, there were other forces/entities at play.
Sleuth- I actually agree with you. Yes we live in the physical world where we see this battle. But underneath… Yes I agree. It’s a turning point between Light and Dark, Good and Evil. You don’t have to believe it, but many already sense a historical moment at this juncture. It’s pivotal to many future courses.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Oh, no, you’ve ruined my day – I can’t get that image of a shapeshifting Fogen out of my mind!!
@TSTAS
I apologize for ruining your day, didn’t really mean to do that. 😦
To avoid seeing him, I try to avoid watching too much of the proceedings as possible, and listen instead.
But I really do believe he is one. Even Judge Lester called it out when he referred to him as a “Potted Plant”.
And thank you for correcting me, it is called “Shape-shifting”, and not “shift-shaping”.
It’s called “Dupers Smirk” he smiles and enjoys it when he’s putting it over on everyone.
@Lonnie
That “Dupers Smirk” is also a part of his Shape-shifting/Reptilian persona. He is a master manipulator.
Many believe the picture of his little boos-boos on his nose was photoshopped, however, I don’t.
Just line up all of his adult photos, including all of his jail booking photos, and compare, you’ll see what I mean.
THE ALTERED PHOTO It’s not about the boo boos, it’s the shape of the nose.
That is because they are both significantly higher educated than he with a significantly higher income level.
I have said before, the Fulton/Martins are just exactly as a family unit what the Zimmerman’s have wanted to give people the impression they are…but they are, in reality, the exact opposite.
x10!
The same thing I posted over at HP last year May.
Here is one point that many of you seem to not understand or perhaps ignore. The tree sewer/MOM/Ice Cream Man goal is not necessary acquittal for the Fogdoit, there who push has to simply turn one juror to force a mistrial. The tree sewer idea is that the state won’t spend the money to hold a second trial to convict the murderer of a black kid! They don’t think TM would/will be worth that much to the people of Florida…..
I don’t buy it.
I don’t think they realize that the Fogdoit will be retried if there is a mistrial. They have no realization of the support for justice in this case… As for myself, I do not see any way he will be acquitted, nor do I feel that manslaughter would be a worthy end to this case, there is however, because of the unknown thoughts of the jurors a possibility that they will not be able to render a verdict….
I don’t follow whatever this tree sewer thing is.
I’ve even been avoiding any of the news talking head analists, heh, even MSNBC.
Just watching the live feed and reading here.
It’s okay if I ignore the other stuff.
Me too. I think it puts us more in touch with what the jury is experiencing. I have no doubt the jury takes quite seriously their mandate in finding Justice in this case. Thank God they are sequestered from the nattering nabobs! I choose to self-sequester from the mindless yapping talking heads.
1st it was he won’t be arrested
then it was he will get immunity
then it was an acquittal by the judge
now it’s a mistrial
ok
So long, farewell, Auf Wiedersehen, Good night…
(I like to sing.)
one of my favorite movies of all time
Moi aussie. 🙂
ah tres bien, Je comprend
J’aime tellement les chansons
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?
I have been so tense with the details of this case.
Nice to have a moonbeam moment, eh?
(My brotherinlaw’s family is in Montreal and they travel there several times a year. Nice place, I hear. 🙂
Just thinking about the Abey scenes gets me a little misty, and I am not someone you would say is religious
but Every abbey scene gets me right here *clutches heart*
When The Sacred is experienced, it doesn’t matter what religion or how religious one is, it is Awesome.
Have a great evening.
I’m for reading, now.
See ya around. 🙂
tzar says
oh, that’s just funny to me 🙂 my bro and i always called it ‘the sound of mucous’ when my mother forced it upon us.
i guess we could skip through the mountains now, arms linked and singing at maximum volume 🙂
“1st it was he won’t be arrested”
Yep, that “No Arrest Guarantee” was a real winner…..rates right up there with the “Diaper Defense” not to mention “The Octopus Defense”
God I hope they call Robbie the Racist and go down that road……That would make this Century complete.
Those silly Zidiots…..haven’t made a correct call yet.
I think Robbie will be used to give diaper boy a preview of what would happen if he dared take the stand. and I bet Robbie is dying to get up there to be abused
Yep, put Robbie up there and play some of his interviews….you remember, all that blood, actually I’ll quote him, “…copious amounts of blood…” diapers, spoons, vicious, brutal and all his other descriptions, and ask him to show the jury where all of that is in the pictures.
I’m still puzzled how those 2 pictures are in evidence since there is no documented chain of evidence on them. In NJ, they would not be allowed. Is it possible they are still “exhibits” and will not be allowed as evidence?
and he was going to “own Florida,” after walking on that immunity hearing that never happened.
Yep, and half the world. A legend in their beady brains.
We would like to extend a very warm welcome to the blog today for our visitors from:
United States
Canada
United Kingdom
Australia
Netherlands
France
Mexico
Hong Kong
Germany
Malaysia
Nigeria
Singapore
Sweden
Thank you so much, and welcome!
Who are the visitors from France. Please please tell me.
All I have in front of me is numbers. WordPress provides numbers of daily visits from countries.Today we had 135 visits from France so far, but that is all I know, I do not have any identities. This is only revealed by visitors, if they choose to comment and tell us who they are.
Thanks. I was just curious being French myself.
So cool, and as I work through my comments this morning, Fred is telling me that another visitor from France has checked in.
Thank you!
i want to move to FRance,was there last summer and the summer before….i love it
I have never been there, but listening to a lecture series on European Thought in the Twentieth Century makes me want to visit Paris as soon as possible. Plus, it’s so beautiful!
J’ai lu Tchoupi et Caillou a mes enfants– et Bill&Boule, Tom-tom et Nana… grands, ils aiment encore Lucky Luke, les Foots Furieux, et Kid Paddle. On ne trouve pas ces BD aux E.U.
Cercando, I like your name: Searching for light. Do you also speak Italian?
Montreal, Canada.
Do I know you, eh?
Anglo Montrealers don’t really say ‘eh.’ We’re not like the English of the rest of Canada. It’s hard to describe. Quebec English is considered a dialect.
I love Montreal. I was there for a conference years ago, visited the underground mall (it was close to Christmas time) and beautiful cathedrals during session breaks. It is a beautiful city, especially in snowfall.
That’s BC, love em.
So beautiful, thank you.
Wow and Wow.
Very impressive.
[Hello, everyone waaaaay out there.]
too kewl for skewl!
It is wonderful, and we have on the blog already, commenters from France, Germany, The Netherlands, Scotland/now living in England (hope I got it right), Canada (lots!), Australia (lots), New Zealand…I hope I have not left anyone out!
Hong Kong bitches!
In HK, Fogen would get life, because they would consider the act evil and depraved and aggravated because Trayvon was a minor
Wow, those laws are very different! Thank you for sharing, Jun.
In China he’d be in some very serious trouble! They don’t have trials like this there.
In most countries, justice is far more swift…..some less than months. Good thing he waived his right to a speedy trial…..and Immunity. Just sayin’……..
Crane- next do a list of states!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
We have wanted to see this also, but WordPress does not provide it. We only have numbers from each listed country, but for the US, the states are not listed separately. It would be cool to see. Yesterday we had 26374 visits from the US.
Also interesting, 2223 search engines were used for finding the site yesterday, and Facebook led in referrers.
Crane~ Well you know theres several dozen from Texas. New Jersey, California, Oregon, and Florida are also here. Out of 50 states, I would LOVE to know who else is here.
________________________________
@crane-station
go to statcounter.com and set up an account there. it will give you simple instructions for inserting either a visible or invisible code on your blog that will give you fabulous info on your visitors. if you need any further help, you have my email.
Germany here, and I know I am not the only one.
Yes, we were discussing that, and you are not the only commenter from Germany. Yesterday, we had 67 site visits from Germany.
Thank You, PYork!
LeaNder is also in Germany.
Anyone fans of CSI?
Mantei, is very similar to one of the prosecutor characters on the show, as reading the Crump page, I watched CSI reruns and there is a guy that is like that is like him
A.D.A. Jeffrey Sinclair
“Secrets & Flies”
And I’ll say it again: The state still has three strategies prepared: one for the defense’s case, one for the rebuttal, and one for the closing. They haven’t really rested their case, have they? And they get the last word. I think that gives them a certain advantage over the defense.
😉
I was asked by my son in law how I thought the case was going and what I would do as a juror. I said if you throw everything to the side all you have left is the defendants credibility …he has none …
He will not testify..
I would convict him..
As Mr. Mantei said
One person is dead the other is liar…..
He was not armed with no intention of hurting anyone that evening (no “tools”, no agenda, verified at the store, paid for purchases, respectful or just a nonissue to the clerk, etc)
Self defense will require a pretty tall tale to be believed from someone with no apparent agenda, no history, no weapon. If the person telling the tale is a proven liar, then how do you connect the dots to a violent thug from an ordinary teen walking home from the store, talking on the phone, running away from a stalker?
You either get Trayvon’s right to defend himself or you get GZ faked everything….
I think a self defense claim is pretty high to obtain in this situation with a person that obvious showed no sign of a desire to hurt anyone…
I am sure Trayvon passed other people on the street there and did not violently attack them.
I agree with everything you have said above. Trayvon was no fool, he knew how tough it can be on a young black male , his folks I’m certain .. had the talk black parents must deliver to their children..No way this child was going know folks where watching him and beat a man to death in front of witnesses…plus one of those men would have come running out and busted Trayvon square in his head had they actually witnessed his beating the hero.. Jeremy saw the gun IMO
going to know
I am a white parent, but have four nonwhite children (all 11 and 12), one who is AA. This scares the crud out of me. I live in a heavy, predominantly white area (the house was big and in foreclosure when we bought it 3 years ago…wish I would have checked out the neighborhood better).
This whole case makes me physically ill and panicked.
I let my Latino son and AA son go to the park today on their scooters…I have to say a scary dread came over me.
I dread the “talk” with all of my being…
Huney I have had the talk 6 times over…
I understand your dread and fear..
this case is huge but for some of us it’s literally life or death..
there are folks hoping the creep gets off ..not because they think he is innocent but because they KNOW he is guilty and they too want a license to murder..their mantra..the only good one is a dead one… sometimes I can barely breath I fear this case so much
And if he didn’t see it, he knew about it. You know how you can hearing him saying something in the call like “he told me…..” something? He either saw or GZ said he had a gun but I don’t think Jeremy believed him or believed he would use it.
I wrote this in response to crane above but I thought it worth sharing. I was trying to qualify Mantei’s highly effective and compelling manner of speaking before the court, and watching it again, I can tell you that he speaks as a teacher does. That’s the kind of cadence and head nodding and eye widening and staring pauses and tone that I use when I teach. You break things up — ‘unpack them,’ we say — into really easy-to-follow and relatable terms. If he were to close, he would be ‘teaching’ the jurors the true facts of the case within a logical narrative, and with a genuine appeal to their common sense.
I completely agree and all the more obvious b/c OM and West are so scattered and incoherent.
PUCK YES! Because I noticed too how easy it is for me to understand what he was talking about. When OMara speaks, it is somewhat confusing to say the least because of all the sly talking in circles. I am simple and I like things said to me in terms of understanding as if I were hearing these things for the first time and not as if I am seasoned and well versed in the laws. Mantei was excellent! He was clear, concise and organized his thoughts and notes to where I was able to understand exactly what he was trying to convey.
The adjective is professorial, in fact.
Professorial, got it lol Yes, he would be perfect to close. That is what the jurors need to hear, someone who can put it all together and “present the facts of the case within a logical narrative, and with a genuine appeal to their common sense.”
It’s impossible to keep up with how many negatives he has used to know whether to answer yes or no, LOL.
agreed,he does it on purpose
I am the president of the Mantei fan club
I’ve found him fascinating since the beginning. The ladies go ga-ga over Guy but I don’t find him intriguing. Manthei, I do. And I can tell that his technique is successful because he’s teaching, essentially. I will be disappointed if someone else closes. Guy was good for the opening because he could get all passionate. That’s not good for explaining the facts and arguing the state’s ultimate case. The jury, I feel, will find (and probably has been finding) Manthei inherently more credible and accessible.
Mantei Strength is in his cogency and succinctness, which evinces his clarity of mind and commanding fund of knowledge. He is also a well trained if not a gifted speaker, whether it is the inflectional switches in his vocal tone or the perfect head nods and hands gestures, it all comes across as genuine and earnest. Did I mention he is also easy to follow no matter how scholarly he gets?
And that’s what makes an effective teacher. I found his inflections, eye language (I’m big on using my eyes), and rhetorical style really familiar.
yup!
I am trying to steal as much of his style as possible for my own presentations, keeping in mind of course that good style never substitutes good substance and Mantei clearly does his homework.
Yep. It is style and substance and he knows how to deliver it.
@Tzar –
Mantei’s great quality is that you forget he is an attorney; instead you have confidence that he is your friend – one you just asked to explain something complicated, that you really need to know.
You believe he has insider knowledge – knowledge you don’t have. Knowledge you really need.
You trust he’ll tell you, and it will be the truth.
You know you’ll believe him.
The jurors will feel all of the above, and will thank him: verdict, Guilty.
Well said. Even if the states case had some holes in it, I believe they’d find him guilty for being stupid enough to hire The Moron Man & Skeletor. Notice Truett seems more distanced from Fogen and now he’s the water boy.
Pmom says
.
yup, he’s got all of that going for him PLUS … if you were a middle aged white woman on that jury, you could look at him and say, ‘he’d make a fine son’. they could identify with him easily.
gz believes he won’t be convicted because he’s told a bunch of very clever lies. so he goes to McDonalds and he laughs, then he cries: More Burgers… More Fries. Little does he know that he’s going to get a very big surprise.
O.k. I must ask this question…I have typed it several times and then erased it, mostly because I don’t want to appear stupid for something that seems to be completely obvious to everyone else. I have noticed for some time that people call GZ, Fogen. So I looked up the word. It is Swedish for foggy? In other words, is it a reference to GZ’s statements?
I have been dying to ask this, but again, I just didn’t want to appear stupid.
Not a stupid question. I didn’t know what it meant either, but I was told it means “forgotten”. Fogen for short because they don’t want to say his name.
Thank you Kate! Now I know.
I kept thinking. My! How cleaver to use the Swedish name for foggy. He is a foggy character. But then I kept thinking certain we could have come up with something else. But this makes sense.
It’s kind of like Voldemort. Fits perfectly.
@kate an Sophia- names have power. Many months ago someone commented that this case kept being called the Zimmerman case, effectively making Trayvon invisible. So, reaching into hallowed antiquity, to remove power from a person you remove their name. Forget them. Forgotten= FOrGottEN. weird huh? 🙂
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
The only stupid question is the one you don’t ask. I’ve never been afraid to ask “stupid” questions b/c I found that if I don’t know the answer, there are most likely others who also don’t know.
i am new to this site… don’t know everyone’s name….but can someone tell me overall do you think proscuction made it’s case about murder 2….hln and cnn has kept me in a state of confusion…..all i am looking for is objectionable opions…..thanks
If you can find a site to replay today with the State’s case argued against OM’s Motion for Acquittal. He summed up the facts and gave the law on self-defense. Case looks very strong to me, but I think you can get a very good idea from this afternoon’s presentation. Welcome to the site….
http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123?feature=watch
Here ya go.
In my opinion, the prosecution has presented enough evidence for a conviction of Murder 2. They haven’t, at this point, really tied the evidence together into a convincing narrative. Whether the jury can or will piece it together without a really good summary is open to question.
Second this comment.
Would add that as others have pointed out, that even if one fears this aspect of the case, its not over yet because we have the defense, rebuttal and closing arguments where the prosecution can still close the gap.
They can. And after what I heard today, I have no doubt they will.
LMAO
Fogen gets sonned by 2 Azn people!!!!
Omara says that Fogen lying and contradicting himself makes Fogen credible but Rachel even using one word differently from before means Rachel is not credible LOL How did he say that load of crap with a straight face
Wow at Nelson just saying denied and moving on so fast
great point about O’Mara
Renee- YES! GZ is buttered toast! Soon he’ll be in a brand new gated community!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@cielo62- one he’ll not have to worry about protecting…no more ‘suspicious’ looking people to follow since he will be among the ‘suspect’.
Yes… One where all his needs will be taken care of.
Reasonable fear requires that the fear is “reasonable” to an average person.
I do not think a single “average person” would have taken the same actions that GZ did, either with the “suspect” crud, the call, the following, the chasing, the shooting.
All the confrontational stuff took less than 70 seconds. The things GZ said are not plausible in that timeframe…end of story…
There is nothing that happened that night that an “average” person would ever undertake or imagine. .
@renee shepherd
it is cnn’s and hln’s JOB to keep you in a state of confusion. think about it… what is their job? to sell advertising space to their audience. what is the best way to do that? keep you in a state of confusion so you keep coming back. it’s an ugly, self perpetuating cycle until YOU decide to take yourself out of the picture.
i think of TV just as i do about facebook — that is, if you are basically getting a service for free, YOU just might be the product being sold.
There was a Kill Trayvon’s Parents facebook page that was created. It looks like it was taken down already. So one murder isn’t enough for these blood suckers.
And THEY are the ones worried about “blacks” rioting?
Wonder why MOM did not ask about Gladys’ work history?
As the defense presents their bogus case, can the state still bring up fogen violent past when speaking to the the witnesses, particularly his family? Or can they only mention his past if the MOM slips up and ask about his anger issues again?
Good question about Gladys, Nellie.
I just found it odd especially since he made sure to have the lying uncle let the jury know that he is a sheriff. He said that as if the sheriff would not tell a lie but this family can all tell lies and believe their own lies that they tell. I think that was the problem with GZ to begin with, everyone denied all of his wrong doings all of his sad ass life.
what is the deal with her work history?
They cannot introduce his violent past unless the defense opens the door for it to be entered, is that right folks that know this stuff. Now there was a matter when OMara was questioning Ms. Liar, I mean Lauer, about had she ever known this guy to be a “hothead” which opened the door for that evidence to be introduced. I do believe the judge was supposed to make a determination. Did she?
I was not sure if GZ past anger issues would still be able to be mentioned because MOM asked about him being angry in the past when he was speaking to Jenna. I do realize that it is now a part of the record and the jury has heard about it.
It appears that MOM is back to the old tricks of demonizing Trayvon even after the jury has met his accomplished family.
Trayvon’s parents had settled the wrongful death suit with the city of Sanford, so basically the SPD was in the wrong.
When was that?
I only heard about the HOA.
I apologize, I meant the Sanford HOA.
Oh okay…I was getting pretty excited there 🙂
The prosecution has a good team If I’m a bad guy and see one
them in court I’d say “oh sheet not that guy”.
Bernie and the Boys……Yep, Bad to the Bone. I wouldn’t mess with them, that’s for sure. Every one of them is pretty much on their game, a little snooze with Serino’s take, but it was zapped…..
You see Fogenhats’ face when the Judge denied the motion for JOA?
i missed it…..I just knew it would get busy in the shop !! I was outside and when I walked back in, GladaZZ was on the stand so I knew it had been denied. His look must have been priceless.
Damn, he looks like someone snatched his heart out here… at the end when she denies
Bbbbbad to the bone . . .
Not only Bad….but smart too !!
Random comic relief:
Thank you, C-S. Funny. Ha ha.
Funny legal humor.
There are a bunch of these robotic legal vids that were either written by lawyers, or someone in the legal profession…stress relief after a day like this one… I’ll try to get a hold of myself, I promise!
Keep in mind: the prosecution still has two other strategies to execute, first during the defense’s case, and then in closing.
sorry – then in rebuttal, and closing will be the final strategy. So three more shots at building their case and putting it together.
Great point Puck, thank you. The words “State Rests” lead one to believe that that is the end of it. And it isn’t.
Hellz no! The best is yet to come!
Do you think that today the State took the jury right to the edge – they may be thinking, this GZ character sure looks guilty, but there’s still a bit of a question with x, y and z – and that the rebuttal witnesses will spell those x, y and z answers out?
Then, bam!
That’s what I see coming. I also suspect that there’s going to be one little thing that will really hammer it home.
Remember, they made a point to ask Officer Raymondo about the button being over the bulletholes in the hoodie and sweatshirt. There’s no way they’ll overlook the location of those in relation to the chest wound. And there’s GZ’s blood and DNA on the lower right front where he would have grabbed the fabric with his left hand as he deliberately fires a hollow point into Trayvon’s heart so as to KILL HIM.
We better stock up on Windex I suppose!
Can Fogen’s mom be charged with perjury?
It’s fairly obvious it is not Fogen screaming
We have 3 witnesses on scene with no connection to either party whom identified the screams as that of a “young boy” or “kid”
Jon Good stated he did not know who was screaming and said it could be Fogen, and also it could be Trayvon
The rest of the witnesses said it was the same voice screaming for help and then it ended abruptly at the gun shot
It’s also obvious with the DNA evidence that Fogen was never attacked
correct. Screaming, 30 seconds later “like it was nothing” to paraphrase a witness. I hope Bernie and the crew thought of that.
calm was the word he used
This is really an excellent point. And Mantai can use their words against them:
Members of the jury, the defense said over and over again that the person who made those screams, those blood curdling screams was in abject fear for his life. And you know what? I agree. As we’ve shown you, as soon as the shot rang out, Jonathan Manalo rushed out and saw the defendant, cool, calm, on the phone, “like it was nothing”. They talked about ammo. He wasn’t phased at all. Does that sound like the same guy? The guy who ten seconds earlier was screaming for his life? Of course not. Common sense tells you the person who screamed was dead. Trayvon Martin was dead.
You would have to prove that she knew that it wasn’t him. That will be very difficult unless she planned it on a jail phone or something.
Gawd, just watched the presser MO’M gave after they recessed for the day. What a sorry sac. I really don’t know who is a bigger liar, him or GZ. They deserve each other.
I know he cannot keep his mouth shut. What kind of stuff was he saying?
Wow, I just watched that, and he is even more revolting than I thought.
Embroidery, of the most lying ass kind, apparently runs in the Fogen family. The uncle testifies that he recognized “George’s” scream before he knew what the news clip was about. … Sure.
I just finished watching Mantei for the first time and was trying to read the Judge’s face. She certainly was intensely listening.
Very impressive, and hints by omission of what we might here in rebuttal to the defense case.
Geez, this is steaming!
That guy cracks me up with his head nodding little grin
“got me, you with me”
Mantei is clear and logical, with fantastic delivery. I often wondered what he majored in.
I can tell you that he speaks as a teacher does. That’s the kind of cadence and head nodding and eye widening and staring pauses and tone that I use when I teach. You break things up — ‘unpack them,’ we say — into really easy-to-follow and relatable terms. If he were to close, he would be ‘teaching’ the jurors the true facts of the case within a logical narrative, and with a genuine appeal to their common sense.
Thank you for this information. It’s not just bias. It’s real. O’Mara is incomprehensible compared to Mantei’s delivery. It’s a breath of fresh air that 1) I can follow clearly 2) doesn’t have me checking around for my wallet.
I knew as he spoke this trial would be going forward. I kind of expected JN to convict him right then and there. Yes Mantei is that good.
You know though, I saw her face and it was definitely softer than when MOM was speaking, but I think she has followed the evidence throughout the case and knows that this is not a real “self defense” case.
She knew before walking in the courtroom the first time that GZ lied in the bail hearing. She knew the defense was difficult and crafty. Her colleague was recused [unjustly] for a comment that was right on target to the situation at hand.
She has seen the evidence now, she has a brilliant mind and capacity to cut through the bull and see what is really happening. This case is not lost on her and while I agree that Mantai did an amazing job, it was not the deciding factor. Everyone knew the defense would ask for immunity from trial and was prepared for it.
I also do not think we have heard the end of the ice cream incident. Has she made a ruling on an investigation yet?
She is also VERY respectful to the jurors and their time. She had every logistical reason to end this, but she knows there is something here.
I think if he is found guilty, he will get the maximum sentence. That is my feeling.
Judge Nelson has a mind like a steel trap. She is quick-witted. Most impressive.
Watching Mantei’s awesome performance again, and I’m seeing JN is seriously into what Mantei’s saying, compelled by his arguments, and doing some critical thinking.
He is good, that’s for sure. If he closes, it’s a no-brainer.
Did you notice that JN for long stretches would look down rather than have eye contact with O’Mara?
I didn’t re-watch O’Mara’s argument or rebuttal. I’m not a masochist.
Heh! I didn’t either.
LOL!
I believe she was reviewing the case law she had been given so as to be able to rule immediately, rather than delay as the defense seemed intent upon trying to force her to do.
parrot says
i would say that nelson’s facial expressions during this entire argument were priceless. the defense was ignored or met with a stone face, mantei’s arguments were greeted with avid interest.
now, let’s hope the jury will see things the same during closing arguments.
Yeppers.
Can you imagine having to look and listen to someone slippery who knows that you know that he is misinterpreting the evidence, distorting facts and outright lying?
What a mind game …
” let’s hope the jury will see things the same during closing …”
God, I pray that it be so.
Omar spent time trying to impeach the mother of the victim, oblivious to her obvious pain.
Bernie spent no time trying to impeach gz’s family members, at all.
Which side impressed the jury that they have a case that does not rely on silver tongued flim flam, rhetoric and artfully twisted meanings?
“Which side impressed the jury that they have a case that does not rely on silver tongued flim flam, rhetoric and artfully twisted meanings?
Pick me !….Pick me ! ……I know, I know the answer…..Pick me !!!
agreed, mr. starr
Here is my theory. GZ doesn’t really have to put on a case because he is claiming self-defense. The State may not have made it’s case as well as it could have, but it did make it well enough that it has now forces the defense into having to play harder. I think now is when you will see the State move in and in the end, close it all up so there will be no doubt whatsoever for anyone who did doubt.
Or I mean he didn’t really have to because the burden of proof was on the prosecution. They did just enough to force out the defense and now they will smash them.
I agree that much has been held in abeyence in order to tighten the noose on Fogen in closing days. At that point, comparatively speaking, he’ll think the concrete sidewalk was pillow-friendly.
Similarly, there was no point in BDLR beating up on Gladazz or the uncle. They weren’t at the murder scene, aren’t key, and it’s fairly evident they had their own song to sing for family solidarity reasons. They are quite forgetable.
I agree, NOTHING gained there. The screaming stops at the bullet thereby re enforcing the ME assumption that he could not speak words as it created a hole in his lung, I hate listening to the recording and avoid it, but heard it today to watch Sybrina, and wow…it clearly punctuates at the gunshot. Anyone listening would assume that to be the victims screams. I am not sure how it can be logically explained otherwise.
No. Not really. You’ve been watching the experts on TV who haven’t explained the basics of self defense law — probably because they don’t understand it themselves.
The TV experts have concentrated on whether Mr. Zimmerman’s use of deadly force was “reasonable under the circumstances,” and seem to believe that the prosecution — through clumsiness, poor-organization, and poor-lawyering — has done a good job of doing the defense’s job on that score.
However, self defense is an affirmative defense. That means the defendant bears the initial burden of setting it forth — which so far neither he, his attorneys nor the prosecution has done; in that no on had addressed the threshold question of whether Mr. Zimmerman can (legally) “claim” self defense at all. The defense is not available to someone who provokes the altercation in which he then feels call upon to defend himself.
Mr. O’Mara, in his Motion for JOA, did an excellent job of avoiding that. The prosecution in its Opposition for JOA clearly noted the weight of the evidence going toward the proposition that Mr. Zimmerman was the aggressor
So far, the only evidence we have that the fight was not the product of a continuous course of conduct begun by Mr. Zimmerman’s unjustified and inherently threatening pursuit of Mr. Martin is contained in Mr. Zimmerman’s various out of court’s statements to the court and others; but Mr. Zimmerman, for a variety of reasons, is not believable.
Otherwise, there’s not much in the way of factual dispute. Consequently, the logical thrust of the Defense’s entire case in chief should go towards rehabilitating Mr. Zimmerman as a witness.
That means their presentation is going to either be very short, because Judge Nelson will not allow an infinite amount of character evidence; and there’s only so much left for their experts to rehash.
That means that if Mr. Zimmerman doesn’t testify the Defense’s case will either be so short that the jury is likely to see it as a kind of capitulation, or that they’ll have to pad it by wasting time on facts which have already been educed or are barely material — which will alienate the jury.
In this sort of case, where the defense doesn’t depend on fact so much on fact as it does on a “justificaction” based on the Defendant’s perception of events, juries typically want the Defendant’s own testimony and will hold it against him if he fails to give it.
Despite what the TV lawyers say, most competent defense attorneys would think very long and hard about keeping Mr. Zimmerman off the stand.
BDL
My Master Revisable Timeline on my evidence pile would be of immense help to people looking to learn more about the case, since it gives a nice overall view of the case. And there’s maps and other fare if one is willing to poke around a bit. Or just use the “search this site” box at the top. I’ve also added a local time world clock and an Orlando time clock. With a clickable link to the live streaming sites I’ve collected urls for. Enjoy
Thank you, Lonnie.
Thank you for doing that.
Thank you.
This is phenomenal work, Lonnie!
Thank you, one and all for your kind remarks.
The incoming 6:48 call is from Shellie.
Can someone explain that? Wasn’t he supposed to be at home during this time? If so, why would she need to call him on his phone?
I thought that EXACT same thing…
Shellie claims to have been having dinner at her parents that night.
Oh no, these calls are from Trayvon’s phone records. Those were the only one’s available at the time of creation. T-Mobil’s man gave us the exact time of the DD call disconnect, so I added that, because it cuts from 70 seconds to about 13 seconds, the gap between Trayvon’s last call drop to the 911 pick up.
The 911 call is 45 seconds to the gunshot so add 13 seconds and you get 58 seconds from the Trayvon call drop to the gunshot.
Thus the entire confrontation lasted something over a minute, with gz in the superior state for all of the encounter. With the entire encounter accounted for, there is no time for any head bashing attack at all. That’s the point the timeline is making.
The last thing Rachel hears is “get off, get off” — that’s not someone who started a fight.
Right… Then 13 seconds later (courtesy of T-Mobil Man) Trayvon is heard screaming in pain. It can’t be gz because he was never attacked or hit. gz is heard asking questions and Trayvon is saying he doesn’t know. Then more Trayvon painful screams, probably produced by some pain producing hold that Kokopelli’s taught gz.
Could have been an arm lock of some kind since gz doesn’t touch Trayvon’s hands either. Then gz starts mocking Trayvon, first saying help, then applying pressure/pain so that Trayvon follows with help me. gz is having fun so he does this a couple of times.
He stops when witnesses begin appearing, then realizes he’s been seen and the cops are going to arrive soon and find him with a helpless kid, so he draws his weapon and fires into the heart, to make sure that the kid is dead and can tell no tales.
His knowledge of law kicks in and he realizes that a story about being subjected to a deadly attack gives him the right to shoot, so he begins to concoct a story. [got out of his truck to look for and address, never came south of the tee, so kid had to come north and attack him] to bolster the story he walks north to drop the key chain flashlight, lit to ensure it’s found but Manalo meets him there. As Manalo takes the picture and heads south towards the body, gz drops the flash light and follows him south.
From the gunshot until Ofc., Smith arrives is 3 minutes. When gz sees Ofc. Smith coming, he then holsters his gun.
Lonnie, great job! You should work for the prosecution.
Thank you, Lonnie.
You have done a great job!
…and some suggest Shellie’s call was a tip-off, but there’s some disagreement on that.
I haven’t yet had a chance to take more than a cursory look at the gz call data. I was wondering how I should handle it, if I should put it in or create another timeline for it. I’m thinking maybe I’ll put it in. But first I’ve got to go get day 9 videos and make a play list of it.
You’ll no doubt note that everyone’s posting the youtube trial vids in parts. On my evidence pile, however, I’ve put them in play lists so you don’t have to search for the parts, either play them all the way through or just the testimony of the selected people. It’s much more convenient that way.
The only phone numbers we’re sure of are Shellie’s and the SPD general number (which the NEN call was listed as).
Revisable??? West objects
🙂
Coffee on my computer screen!!!
But yes, revisable because new data was always coming in, in dribs and drabs.
Lonnie! Thanks!
Lonnie- you probably already know this but … YOU ARE AWESOME!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I only wish I did know that… But thank you for saying so! It’s a very big help believe me.
I’m in awe of the women we have here. You know who you are, I won’t list cause I don’t want to leave anyone out.
cielo says
yeah, what she said!
Lonnie, we can never thank you enough.
Yep, another bad day for the defense. Malia Litman thought that Carter helped gz with his “shout out” to him. I pointed out that the prosecution did not base it’s profiling claims on gz having targeted older black males and that Carter did not help foggen. What he did was prove that foggen knew how to fashion exculpatory legal claims.
A damning bit of info the defense could certainly have done without.
The value of that testimony, to me, was that it was a clear, uncomplicated lie. There was no interepretation required.
As I remember, Zimmerman said he didn’t know the law in the area. He did. That more than anything when to the prosecution’s case.
@Lonnie
I agree, and really appreciated it when he discussed what an “Imperfect Defense” was. And man, didn’t that silly smile leave the confessed murderer’s face.
So, if this uncle is the same uncle that has the daughter that claimed molestation, I was a tad worried that if character came into it and she was called to testify, he would not back her considering his testimony today.
But then, in thinking about it, if it comes out, he would have been a mandatory reporter to family services considering his public role. If this was made aware when both Z parents were working for the court system, they would have ALSO been mandatory reporters to alleged child abuse…
That is a rat’s nest for them. Regardless on if they believed it or not, reporting is required in most states by any member of public service, along with other professions.
I left a message on the last entry that I’m sure that Jorge isn’t the father of that daughter. It’s the other brother.
Personally, in parenting and working with kids for a decade now that experienced abuse and neglect, everyone that has knowledge of a credible allegation should be mandatory reporters.
If this uncle had any knowledge of it, he better have reported it.
Grown men with hollow points in their clip and a hot one in the chamber dont scream for help, that’s their big d**k. They’re dying to show you they know how to use it. Excuse my language but it’s real, I never known a man to keep one in the chamber who wasnt expecting trouble. My military husand, marine dad and uncle not even my cop ex-boyfriend. That ass was looking for trouble.
Yep. And supposely the purpose for buying this gun was because of dogs. I don’t know about anyone else but I haven’t encountered any vicious dogs at Target or Walmart. Am waiting to see if that bit of info comes out in the defense case – the big bad dog and GZ needing to buy the gun to protect himself from them.
I have never heard of a sane person shooting a dog unless their love ones lives were in danger. Putting a hollow point in a dog is far beyond anything I can imagine a sane person wanting to do. He’s out of his mind that’s why he passed the voice stress test should have never been allowed to carry a gun crazy ass!
yes,animal creulty like Jeffrey Dahmler
i can NOT fathom,WHY HE PULLED THE TRIGGER,why ,why,why?
I don’t believe him when he said the animal control officer told him to buy a gun to get rid of the dog. Of course, if he had done such a thing, it would have been the animal control officer’s fault, just as everything is always someone else’s fault…never his, of course. We already know how he treats animals by his treatment of the ex gf’s dog…kicking the poor thing in the stomach. I wonder if he still has his Rottweiler. God help any animal belonging to that psychopath.
Did they get to the part about the gun and GZ’s purpose for getting it?
There are two animal rescue women on the jury….getting a gun to shoot and kill a dog would not set well I imagine.
I thought it might come out when Osterman was asked about the gun but it was once AGAIN another answer skirted over. He gave some roundabout reply that everyone needed a gun and never really gave a direct answer. The state didn’t push it.
IIRC, in opening statement Don West discussed the getting-a-gun-to-shoot-a-dog rationale for buying a gun as though it were the most reasonable thing in the world to do.
What an egregious human being.
I thought I heard it, but could not remember where. I wish there was a way to bring it back out.
He went from “buying a gun to shoot a stray dog” to carrying EVERYWHERE but work. That is quite the jump there.
It goes along with the story that GZ forgot the street names of the three streets in the neighborhood…just too far of a logical stretch!
Thanks Professor!
with hollow point bullets no less,these cretins toy with life and death,oh but a good CATHOLIC boy
CAC obviously places no value on any life, human or animal. Indicative of a total lack of compassion, conscience or empathy.
I agree. I hope the jurors do too. I thought I remember a couple of them being animal lovers. If so his comments should be offensive to them as well.
I’ve never met a bad dog.Bad humans… yes.
And he got it. … There is no way Fogen would be screaming like that while taking time to avoid blasting his own hand and lifting the button. He had one plan: To pull the trigger and be a hero.
I still believe he is of the ilk “I have a gun….therefore I need to use it on somebody at some point…..think I’ll go out to Target (someone)”
Exactly, racer. He WANTED to use it and he found an excuse to do that very thing.
I know a few just like him and I stay as far as possible from them as I can. Bad Karma or as Lonnie says “Toxic”
There are two types who carry with one in the chamber:
(1) The CACs like fogen trying to prove their manhood and loaded for trouble, and
(2) Those carrying for self-protection against the CACs
Well well well perjury seems to be a family affair. Only a nut job would believe a man with a gun would scream like that. That was obviously a teenager screaming and a man with a gun will not beg for his life. Again they lie to help him get out of trouble. No wonder he thinks he can do what he wants. What a disgusting family.
I think what this Family fears most about a conviction is the M word.
M I T A G A T I N G circumstances.
Truth is apparently a foreign word to them too.
The acts of the family of the Fogdoit today in the courtroom, highlight with out any doubt why he is where he is today! He has never been allowed to accept responsibility for his own actions, there has always been someone there to bail him out of the jam’s he has gotten himself into! I suppose in some strange way they actually think that they are/have helping him. He and they will have many years to think and reflect over what he has done, however it is unlikely that he will ever admit to himself that he murdered a child for his own pleasure and status…..
They did not have RZ Sr testify, because he said he heard GZ “make that noise” as a teenager.
So the only family member that has testified personal experience, and they did not use him..why? Because he screwed up his last testimony saying GZ was a TEEN!
Yep
When I heard RZ Sr say he had heard GZ scream like that as a teenager in Virginia, all I could think of was Deliverance.
Oh, my, Puck, as a proud Virginian, I hope you’re not equating Deliverance with the Commonwealth of Virginia. In fact, it’s regrettable that the Zimmermans lived here at all. The proper place for them is very warm and smells of sulfur.
No, just referncing the South in general, which is unfair, and I know Virginia is a different place, and not hillbillyland.
Fogen is what he is because of his father always getting him out of whatever trouble he may have got himself into. IMO, he did not do his son any favors by not allowing him to accept responsible for any of the crimes which he committed.
The father is the reason that his son turned out to be what he is today. those who support this clown, know that he is guilty as charged. also for O’Mangy to get up in court, trying to express his sympathy to Sybrina after he smeared and slandered her child, the man has no shame at all.
I’ll be so glad, when this trial is over and, hopefully Fogen is convicted for what we all know he did.
What is this the Frank Taffe show on HLN? He acts as if he is the only one on there that matters and all questions are for him only. I think I might dislike him more than Junior.
“Frank Taaffe” did not actually exist until HLN created him.
Hahaha. I don’t get HLN, so he still doesn’t exist afaic – that piece of excrement.
I’m so pissed at HLN for pretending that Taaffe has one word to say that is worth a plug nickel.
Whonoze- actually there are THREE Frank Taafes!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Oooooh Noooooo!
Now that’s a stretch 🙂
Thank you, Professor, for informing us and allowing us to discuss this case and other legal issues here.
I don’t think the defense has many witnesses to put on the stand. It will be interesting to see who they call and how the prosecution cross examines them.
WARNING! LEWD/INAPPROPRIATE JOKE FOLLOWS:
First witness Monday will be Shellie testifying that the screams on Lauer’s 911 call sound exactly like George did the time she forgot to put the KY on the cucumber.
so THATS how everyone knows what georgie’s screams sound like!
Especially Taafe.
Heck naw! You soooooo wrong for putting that picture in my head!
You were warned.
I read it….it took me a while to actually get it…now I am greatly disturbed far too close to bedtime.
I guess that tells a little about me…
Yup an he kept screaming on the hour every hour.
When Shellie asked why
foggaggge said the cucumber keeps repeating.
*snort*
Well, that explains why GZ didn’t want to go to the ER or ENT. That cucumber made its way from his azz to his nose.
It’s more probable that testimony would come from jr, taaffe or oysterman
@Whonoze
WOW
Ewwwwww!
Oh great, you couldn’t use an out-of-season vegetable for that one!
Right?
Whonoze- ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
This is when I put my faith in God. I know a lot of you won’t agree with me but i have said from the beginning that BDLR is not doing his job. There is no reason the ME should have gotten on that stand the way he did, not remembering things. It was bernie’s job to prep these witnesses, what the hell did he do for a year. I am glad a believe in God & trust that he appointed them women to that jury for a reason, because if it was totally up to BDLR this would be really bad.
Agree. All the facts are there, but the case was sloppily presented, and the jury is left to figure o ut on their own.
Though we have not seen closing. I think the case was presented strategically, knowing something about the Defenses case.
I do not think they wanted to give these spin masters anything to work with.
But outside that, I am not sure. I think this State team is their “A” players….I suspect there is something they know that we do not.
I certainly am not saying they should present a theory of the crime to the jury, and actually agree with the strategy of just saying saying Zimmerman is a liar. I just wished they hammered that point home. it concerns me.
If the defense puts on a weak defense, and the prosecution puts on a great rebuttal and closing, I will be less concerned. But there have been a lot of unforced errors.
The prosecution will clean them up this time around and I think can give a masterful closing argument like they did today. I think it will be okay.
We shall see. I don’t want this case to be lost due to poor strategy because I was left thinking “wow great facts, but does the jury see them” They haven’t been sitting with this for months like the prosecution has. What may be obvious to the prosecution- that zimmerman lied repeatedly- may not be clear to the jury.
Nah – see, now the have to defend themselves and the facts can still come out. It will be okay – really.
There is something that brought all of us here, together. The obvious answer to that is the Professor, but we were looking for the truth and found our way here. The possibility is great that the jury feels the same way we do. There is no reason to think they are stupid and cannot see what the prosecution is showing them. They are from all walks of life, just like we are. They have varied and interesting personal histories, just like we do. They love their children and want them to be safe, just like we do. Creepy ass crackers scare them, just like us. J4TM.
That’s what I’m thinking as well.
I understand the prosecution’s case: (a) The Defendant’s admits to the killing (b) but-for a self defense argument he should be found guilty of murder 2 and (c) the defendant is liar, therefore, the jury can ignore the self defense claim.
I don’t have a problem with that strategy but I am concerned right now about whether the jury understands the facts of the case. I do believe there is enough there to convict, but think that the summary witness was necessary.
I think that one more witness would have buried the defendant, especially considering the various witnesses in the case.
Anyone of them can be disbelieved, but if you had a snap shot of just how many people would have to be disbelieved in terms of the various lies that Zimmerman told, we would be looking at a different picture.
I suppose we are left with the closing. I agree with their overall strategy by the way of not advancing a theory of the crime. Here the theory of the crime isn’t the point. The point is that the self defense relies on the veracity of the defendant. i just think they made a mistake today.
Great post. Serino has not been neutralised. Ironic he wanted Z charged but O’Mara used him in his argument for acquittal. Z’s lies need to be put in context for the jury as does the dna evidence. Can that all be done in closing. I sure hope so. Mantei was great today. I hope Bernie doesnt pull rank and choose to do the closing arguments. Sorry he just hasnt impressed me.
I think reliance on closing is a mistake. But, I am not a criminal law attorney. Its just gut instinct as a lawyer. While I agree with the Professor when he rebutted an earlier comment by me by stating that hand-holding isn’t a good idea, there’s some value in summarizing.
Right. Closing imo should be just re-iterating what a jury should have already concluded. i.e Z is a liar. Z was the aggressor. TM was entitled to fear for his life that night and resist an over zealous wannabe cop.
Exactly. When I’m advising I always reinforce.
I’m thinking the State adjusts their strategy to better suit what they are getting from the demeanor of the jury (which we can’t see).
The Prosecution may see that the jury might be annoyed/insulted by the Duh-fense’s behavior, shocked by the contrast of the raw evidence and fogen’s stories, and disturbed by fogen’s “flat” behavior in court. I think that’s why the Prosecution has given the Duh-fence extra rope when they’re making azzes of themselves, why they present raw evidence of fogen’s lies in his own recorded words and let it sit there, and why they present the raw (unexplained) evidence and let it sit there — I think they want the jury (having formed their own appropriate negative impression of fogen and his birds-of-a-feather team, if they have) to MARINATE in this stew of raw data points and to think about it in their ample SPARE TIME.
I think reading the jury and then adjusting the strategy is brilliant! It also is truly RESPECTFUL of the jury’s competence and intelligence, especially contrasted with the blatant disrespect and faux-compassion of fogen’s klan (“First, I’m sorry for your loss” — “Objection!” as O’Smarma checks it off on his yellow pad). The State is showing confidence in the jury’s competence in doing their job. Let the jurors sit with and think about the pieces of raw data they’ve seen. Although they can’t discuss the case amongst themselves yet, let them roll these pieces of the puzzle around in their minds and see what reasonable conclusions they come to on their own, individually. The State’s brilliant opening statement gave the jury an outline of what important information to be looking for. The jury has been gathering information since that first day. Given how the duh-fence has come across as less interested in seeking the Truth in the case and steamrolls all in their path with bullying and disdain, I would think that the jurors would identify more with the Prosecution team who seems to be seeking the Truth as supported by evidence.
Later (closing?), I can see the State showing a timeline and connecting dots and the individual jurors almost feeling like part of the State team as they all mentally plug in their own connections and theories to complete the mystery of HOWDUNNIT.
I felt the same way when Serino was on the stand. He wanted to go to the State’s side a couple of times and Bernie didn’t follow up on it. It made no sense. Serino mentioned red flags and that where the body ended up didn’t jive with GZ’s account – but Bernie let it pretty much alone instead on zeroing in on it.
If Serino is called by the defense, I would give him a parachute and bring up the question he answered before that said that GZ was a “pathological liar or telling the truth”….
They did not charge him because he “believed him” and BLDR can see why. As seen on Hannity, he is GOOD AT IT! It is “no wonder the SPD believed him and had no labs back at the time to directly refute”
I think giving the SPD a parachute and letting them take the position that GZ was really good at lying and the story, without all the evidence, seemed somewhat plausible, maybe they will get more cooperation and overcome the “GZ was believable” story line.
Pathological Liar = those who lie out of habit, even of non important things…ie it is a lifestyle…without thought.
He doesn’t have to be a mastermind (as MOM explained today) to be a pathological liar…just good at creating his own believable reality by lying…
I think there is ample evidence of that in much of his life.
I certainly think the television interview underscored the fact that Zimmerman is a gifted liar. Watching it, you wouldn’t know other than the crassness of what he was saying just how much he was lying.
The added assuring laugh, head movement, calm, collected answer to Hannity on that specific question just blows me away.
He is really, really good at playing a role.
KA, I always remember what the Middle Eastern coworker said about him.
The coworker had been harassed and made the butt of the joke by Z to the point that he filed a complaint with management against Z.
When Z was questioned about it, the coworker was amazed at Z’s ability to convince others of his sincerity. So much so, that the Middle Eastern coworker started to doubt himself. “Great poker face” he said of Z.
I see those traits run strong in his family–his brother Junior, his father and his mother. Today, I saw it in his uncle.
what a day! i was surprised, somewhat unpleasantly, that the state put sybrina on before the ME, perplexed and baffled by the mannerisms of the ME, intrigued by the drama of the richardson hearing, and shocked at what felt like a clumsy closing of the states case in chief. sybrina, however, was the epitome of grace under pressure.
but then, there was the sweet rush of relief as judge nelson put the hammer down and moved this thing forward. although i was not surprised at her decision, it felt as good as corey’s presser announcing the charging and arrest.
i think the state was far from elegant in their presentation of their case, they certainly had their share of difficult witnesses to work with. my basic assumption at this point is that just as their charging document was ‘bare bones’, so was their case in chief. we shall have to see what the defense has to offer, but i do expect better with the state’s rebuttal.
highlight of the day for me was mantei on argument for denying acquittal. we got a good glimpse into their closing argument, he tied things together well, without giving away too much, and i found him very compelling. searching mind was right on calling mantei for closing argument and i expect he will. he is earnest, sincere and just believable.
i look forward to watching the prosecution on cross examination — hope for some fireworks, but most of all, hope there is a wealth of evidence which has been held back based on the direction of the defense’s case.
hopefully, i can enjoy the weekend with family, get some laundry done and stop being an addict for 48 hours, although i’m already feeling withdrawals.
Faux, trust me in that the ME was just like my Dad. Attorney, I beg to disagree with you but I have graduated with 4 years of medical education at Northwestern University School of Medicine, completed one year internship, passed the state medical boards, and have an Illinois license to practice medicine. Now then, you only have a 3 year law degree, so then, how are you in a position to argue with me regarding the cause of death. That is the cruz of the matter, the lawyers are stepping into something they know nothing about.
on that i agree – i do think his demeanor was a challenge because he had difficulty following court instructions and that at the very least he should be used to doing. i am unconcerned about change of opinions re: how long TM was alive and the MJ thing. i had a harder time with him seeming to turn on a dime as to whether TM could move or not. that will likely puzzle a jury.
I think he stated, even after the possible delay of death, he said he could not talk or voluntarily move, just make painful noises for up to 10 minutes.
If GZ flipped him over, he flipped over a boy in immense pain and distress that was fighting to breath and could see or hear everything. I would consider that pretty darn depraved.
If GZ heard him making whimpers in pain, knew CPR and first aid, did not alert 911 or start screaming for someone else to call for an ambulance, had a conversation with someone about the “gun” used, and then had someone call his wife, then he was gravely indifferent to Trayvon’s life/death….
I would call that “ill will” at a minimum. I pray I, nor my family EVER crosses the path of someone with that kind of “indifference”.
I think about the man who killed the man who was molesting his daughter on his property…he had every “legal right” to let him die without thought…but he panicked to save his life…
I think most of us would be that way.
ka says : “I think most of us would be that way.”
i could not agree with you more about that statement and your entire comment.
KA
I shudder in horror, knowing your comment retraces the actual activity of gz.
Didn’t fogen itself say in one of his (many differing) statements that all TM said after being fatally shot was “something like ‘ow, ow’ or something”?
“. . . he was gravely indifferent to Trayvon’s life/death”. Indeed.
KA….I have always prayed that Trayvon died instantly so that his suffering wasn’t prolonged. But, after reading that he could have lived up to 10 minuted after being shot, I am absolutely horrified. I can’t even imagine how he suffered and all the while wondering why?….why did this person do this to me?…..and then being flipped over and sat on by fogen, the f**king, sadistic, psychopath.
I don’t think the ME knows that fogen sat on Trayvon after he shot him
gz claims he did not know the kid was dead, yet he lies and says that he spread the kids arm wide and continued to call for help out of fear.
The M.E. says Trayvon could not have drawn his arms up under his body. “Only small movements possible”. Movements like twitches and spasms.
Even if Trayvon had a bullet proof vest on, that 9mm slug packs such a punch, he’d have still been incapacitated for a while. Without such a vest he would stand no chance at all.
no and he would not because his sole job is to perform autopsies and LOTS of them it would appear. i suspect that if the ME had been asked for his opinion regarding that aspect, it could have been objected to as to calling for speculation. fred could be more definitive.
Faux, maybe not. I watched part of his testimony and could follow him quite well. This could be because I grew up around medicine. I also realized what my daughter went through while earning her MS in Chemistry and being a TA. She taught as she called it Cowboy Chemistry for nursing and premed students. She dumbed down the course as much as possible such that it still resembled a Chemistry Course. It was frustrating to her because the students could not work with decimals or fractions. One question on an exam was define the Chemical term Mole. One nursing student’s answere was a small animal which burrows in the ground. So, I think the ME was trying to keep it simple whereas the lay person would understand what he was saying while not trying to confuse them. Just my take on te situation.
WW, Funny. 🙂
Mantei did so an excellent job with respect and emotion. It was breath-taking to watch him go through the arguments that a lay person could understand. MOM’s motion didn’t come close to a case on point like, Manei’s. Awesome work there.
Mantei has the truth on his side.
O’Mara’s mendacity bowls me over.
Faux, great job summarizing today’s hearing. Mr. Mantei was smooth as butter. I really like his unassuming personality, and I also agree with Searching, and hope he does the closing.
Oh, by the way, I saw a tweet put out by Sybrina asking God to give her the strength to represent her”Angel” well today on the witness stand. Looks like her prayer was answered.
sybrina did great, that’s for sure. thanks for the compliment 🙂
Funny you should mention an “Angel” tweet from Sybrina.
Friday morning, in the wee hours before court was to begin (court resuming at 8:30am in FL is 5:30am on the left coast), I was preparing for watching the day’s court proceedings (reading comments, sending up positive thoughts and prayers, etcetera) when 4:44 caught my attention on my digital clock
Numerologically, “444” is an esoteric message from spirit meaning “You are surrounded by Angels.” When court began, the first on the witness stand was Sybrina. Your comment about Sybrina’s tweet asking God for the strength to represent her “Angel” gave me chills.
It was apparent, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, that Sybrina and Jahvaris (TM’s brother) were surrounded by Angels. Their words rang with Pure, Righteous Truth and they were perfect messengers for the voice of Trayvon. Trayvon’s love and pride in them was palpable. One’s heart could not help but soar when hearing the pure chords of Truth in their words.
In fact, the palpable Truth in the Fulton’s testimony was so clear and powerful, that I felt it spoke to Gladys’ heart because, later on Friday, when GZ’s mother took the stand to claim those screams as her son’s — she radiated SHAME. Gladys KNOWS those screams are Trayvon’s — you could see how conflicted she was in her every move and word on the stand. She knew she was expected to lie for her own child, and yet, you could see she just couldn’t steal those screams from someone else’s dead child.
Check out fogen during her (and his uncle’s) testimonies. This is the first time we’ve seen him look compassionate and remorseful — when he saw that he had put his family in the position of showing loyalty to him by lying to God and country (“so help me God”). Zimmerman teared up when he saw his family support him at the cost of a soul-damning lie before God. The uncle blustered through with dialed up bravado, but the mom, Gladys, was in agony. I have a new respect for Gladys. In spite of her human biases and shortcomings, you can see she is profoundly devoted to her beliefs and her God. You can see how painfully conflicted she is on the stand while listening to the recorded screams of terror and agony (she looks down, hunched forward as in shame, with her hand over her mouth as if keeping herself from “spilling the beans”). When she speaks, she characterizes the person screaming in terror and agony. When asked directly, “Is that your son screaming?” notice that she doesn’t really answer the question. Not a strong, certain, straight-backed righteous OWNING of those screams, but an equivocal “because he’s my son” non-answer. It’s as though she just couldn’t definitively LIE, so gave a weasy-queasy answer. Notice how they didn’t press her for a prouder unequivocal answer and rushed her off the stand.
Angels are surrounding all the players in this psycho-social-legal drama! Stay tuned!
“Angels are surrounding all the players in this psycho-social-legal drama! Stay tuned!”
Please keep us informed. Sybrina seemed dignified and powerfully aligned with truth, while Gladys seemed conflicted, as you say. Thanks for sharing your perceptions.
@MedicineBear
Wow! How Powerful!
4-4-4, “You Are surrounded by Angels”.
Yes, Sybrina and Jahvaris were both powerful, and yet humble in their responses while under oath on the witness stand. This family has represented themselves, church, and community well. They have consistently exhibited grace, dignity, and a spirit of humility throughout this horrific ordeal.
I agree that Gladys was conflicted, and am certain that her heart was pricked. I posted on the previous thread, that as I watched her on the witness stand, I had a very strong feeling that she really wanted to tell the Fulton/Martin family how very sorry she was for all the pain her family has caused.
And I also believe she wanted to say to Judge Nelson, “Your Honor, that is not the voice of my son”. However, something or someone would not allow her to express her Truth, and that is all so very sad.
Although I fully understand why witnesses are not allowed in the courtroom during trial proceedings, I really hoped that she would have so she could see for herself, with her own ears and eyes, the Truth, and the pain and suffering her son has caused to so many people.
I honestly believe Gladys has been kept in the dark about certain things, and sold a bag of bad goods by her own family. Despite the way things are appearing to us, I have always prayed for her family,
There is no doubt in my mind that “The Palpable Truth” has touched Gladys, and I join in agreement with you, that “Angels are surrounding all the players in this psycho-social-legal drama”.
MedicineBear, thank you so much for sharing your well thought out insights.
Well said other than I have no respect for his mom. When she said
“because he’s my son” she may have well said “..because I’m expected to say this” If she had any self respect, she’d have said “I really don’t know” or told the defense I can’t get up there and lie.
Remember she wanted to be hidden from the world, and in fact was in all those TV interviews , and was only concerned about her loss in social standing last year.
I’ve been raving about Mantei all over this thread. He orates like a teacher, and I realized that he is indeed teaching — much in the same way I do. Search for Puck on this page and you’ll find those posts. I go further in my assessment.
@Fauxy
@Searching Mind
AGREE 1,000%! Great call by SearchingMind!
Mantei was smooooth as caramel …
“highlight of the day for me was mantei on argument for denying acquittal. we got a good glimpse into their closing argument, he tied things together well, without giving away too much, and i found him very compelling. searching mind was right on calling mantei for closing argument and i expect he will. he is earnest, sincere and just believable”
Mantei even got his irrepressible tufts of hair sprayed down!
It would seem that for some kind of perverted reason the defense team is banking their whole defense on the possible testimony of Ben Crump. I can see no possible chance that the Ice Cream Man can trick that man into damaging the states case. Actually I have a difficult time understanding how his testimony will in any way help either side at this point in the case. The defense will ultimately come down to having to chose whether to put the Fogdoit on the stand or not. I think he will insist that he be allowed to testify, and MOM will make the point plain that it is against his professional advise because he has allegedly already won the case and does not need to! Curtain time until the next bus to the state hotel for the criminally inclined….. Now my opinion is that that the smartest thing for the Fogdoit team to now do is close and in the closing statement adimit to the act of manslaughter and hope the jury buys that and finds him guilty of that instead of Murder 2!!!
If he was even a factor, he would have deposed him by now…all of it was a nod to the Treehouse and a hope for a delay of trial.
They are not getting anything there. They know it.
Because they took their money and their strategy from the outhouse.
Fred, thanks for the summary as I’ve just gotten back from lunch and Yahtzee with my son, mom and Sissie. Three really good quality hours with those whom I love.
Sounds like the only thing of quality that I missed was Mantei’s rebuttal (?) of the request for acquittal and I’m looking forward to seeing that as soon as it’s posted somewhere.
Look above! 🙂
Thanks a heap. That’s very kind and thoughtful of you to share.
Being on the other side of the world, I miss much of the live trial streaming video.
This link is a collection of the entire trial testimony (in segments) that may be useful to others wishing to review the trial.
http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123?feature=watch
@zhickel
Thank you so much. I live in the U.S. but still missed segments due to family being in town for the holiday.
How does the procedure of calling rebuttal witnesses work? Does the defense rest, and then does the prosecution call additional witnesses?
diary — have I missed your report on individual jurors, their reaction to testimony, hallway whisperings, restroom gossip, etc. from Wednesday? If so I’ll sift through yesterday’s threads.
Hi TO,
I did post quite a bit on Wednesday and some yesterday. It was difficult to see the jury because of evidence displays that were propped in front of us.
As I mentioned the other day and again yesterday, I was able to tell Sybrina that we sent our love from the Frederick Leatherman law blog.
-Diary
OH WOW…I missed that, but thank you!
Did she know who we were?
Yes, after the defense rests they can rebut what the defense witnesses had to offer.
After the defense rests, the State can call witnesses to rebut what the defense witnesses said. That’s called the rebuttal case which is limited to rebutting the defense case.
What kind of defense can Zimmerman’s lawyers mount?
Mostly continuing to try to poke holes such as in the DNA evidence being improperly stored?
I am not sure they have proved that yet…they were talking to people who were pieces in the custody chain, but not the one that bagged the items initially.
If they go there, I just assume that BLDR will call the person who initiated the chain of custody and say that the clothes were bagged correctly or give reason to why they were treated in the way they were.
If the defense brings that up (improper treatment of evidence), then I assume BLDR can call those witnesses in redirect.
Good points
IIRC wasn’t it documented in the ME report that the clothing had a mildew stench, which would mean the clothing was received in that condition. I maybe wrong
Did anyone believe that bullshit story his uncle gave about his wife watching the news and blah blah blah and he asks what she is watching she nonchalantly says the news and he says that’s George’s voice screaming.I mean honest to god. Wouldn’t his wife recognize fogens voice as well.Do they all think we just fell off the cabbage truck.Fogen comes by his fairy tales honestly.Call me crazy but I think that there is a whole barrel of bad apples in that family.
I can’t imagine anyone with a double digit IQ believing that line. I was minding my own business, in my computer room and I just happened to hear a scream, and not knowing I had any family in legal trouble, and said ..’that’s George…..I’d know that scream anywhere” Even though the defense took the posture that one one, even an expert can tell from a scream, since it is unnatural.
Things we won’t hear after trial by the jurors
1) His uncle was so compelling we had to consider……
2) His mom, GladaZZ, convinced me……..
3) Looking at him on at the defense table, I could really sense…..
4) Osterman cleared up so may loose ends we had no choice but..
5) He clearly was a good citizen just protecting the neighborhood
6) His desire to be a police office was so commendable, he
deserved a chance to prove his worth
7) I’m glad he carries a loaded gun all the time.
8) His defense team had all of the details covered and had such a
great presentation, nothing unnecessary, nothing of distraction.
9) Because he answered all of the detectives questions and
offered to do a reenactment, how could he possibly be guilty.
10) His demeanor when the states witnesses testified showed such
strength and dignity….especially when he laughed at himself
during the Hannity replay.
The screams require a wide open throat and a big mouth, gz has none of these. They are the AA traits that makes AA’s sound the way they do and that’s before we get to the vocal chords of a 17 year old.
gz’s tiny mouth and small throat passages simply cannot provide the space needed for the resonance of those screams. Listen carefully into the wide open “O L” of the screams. It takes “a horn” of a certain size to make a sound that “full” and “rich”, and it’s obvious that gz does not possess it.
Exactly….we had this discussion back about Jan. Fogen could have smirked someone to death, but he’d never be able to scream about it……you know, his knows being pinched and all.
@racer — good to see you, buddy. you are in fine form!
This could be the toughest week of all. I’m thinking Fogen spent his last free Saturday yesterday.
Good! Bernie still has some arrows in his quiver. I can see why you wanted to do this for a living, also can understand how it can get to you.
Most excellent! I expect that if Fogen testifies, then Gilbreath would be called by the state to shut that whole thing down.
If foggen testifies there won’t be any need for anymore witnesses at all. All that will be needed is cross examination and he’s done!
Can the State, at that point, call the FDLE witness in a connect-all-the-dots “wrap up” testimony rebutting the defense’s case?
Mantai’s argument against acquittal (Friday) was stunningly brilliant — but the jury wasn’t present. Since this summary of all the direct and circumstantial evidence was not presented to the jury before the State rested, WHEN will that opportunity come? WHAT is the strategy behind not summarizing the State’s case to the jury before resting? Is the only opportunity to present a timeline and summary for the jury in closing arguments?
Also, do the jurors have access to the videos, etc, to peruse over the weekend (I know they can’t discuss the case yet, but do they have access to the evidence that they can individually view now)?
No, the jury does not have access to the evidence.
No, the State will not be able to call a summary witness to connect the dots because they will be limited to rebutting what defense witnesses say.
I think Bernie will give the State’s closing, since he is the lead prosecutor.
Mantei’s argument was focused on the legal standard for a halftime motion seeking a judgment of acquittal. The State’s closing will be focused on the evidence.
I hope they split the closing…. Mantei is so gifted with visual presentation I believe his ability to create a power point that the jurors can follow would be really effective…. then let Bernie bring it home at the end with the more emotional aspect of the closing…
@diary73
I saw your b-day video, looking good honey, honey! I hope you got a chance to see your “guy” at the State’s table? 🙂
Thank you so much for being our ears and eyes at the hearing. Wish I could have been there with you. Thank you so much for giving Ms. Fulton our love and letting her know we are praying for them.
Hope you had a wonderful 4th of July!
I did see Mr. Guy. He is an absolute dream… more so on person than on television. That law professor had me fanning myself though. I do love chocolate. Oh my. Giggles.
Golden boy Manthei is always on the laptop. Did you catch a glimpse of the screen? What does he look at?
The Professor seemed like the most genuine, adorable man. I will stop there…
X10
Can’t help but think back to the jailhouse phone call between Fogen and SheLie where she (and others) had met with MOM outside Fogen’s presence. Can’t recall if she alludes to the pair of dismissed lawyer clowns, but she goes on about how impressed (favorably, that is) she is with MOM and how they made such a swell choice.
Wonder that line of thinkin is holding up now.
Also, with the way MOM lies and twists the truth in open court, wonder what kind of whoppers he’s told them and is still spinning to the fam.
Finally, things being as they are, wonder what kind of appellate specialist would be willing to take this on pro bono.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can breathe now. I had no idea how stressed I was until now.
>^..^<
cat scratch fever
Fraud McCoy- never had it. Never will. 🙂
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Bartonella Henselae
This is the first murder trial I’ve watched where a lead detective did not tie up the pieces at the end. I am very baffled as to why the State did not have an FDLE or State Investigator in this role.
I will say that I don’t think a parade of friends and relatives with past/current law enforcement and military careers is going to helpful to the defendant. This is one time where that might backfire – since it’s pretty obvious he is a wanna be law enforcement type & the motive to chase Trayvon around in the dark and rain.
They aren’t ready to tie up the pieces. It’s got the defense flummoxed, 🙂
Could be strategy. Could be the Mercury retrograde fogging things up though.
That’s because this trial isn’t a “who-dunnit” but an affirmative defense. We know who did the killing and how. No need to tie that up.
The single most important question here is whether Mr. Zimmerman provoked (according to Florida’s legal definition of the term) the fight which led to the shooting or not. If Mr. Zimmerman did provoke the fight, he may not then avail himself of “self-defense” no matter what happened subsequently.
The second most important question is whether Mr. Zimmerman acted with depraved indifference at the time he provoked the fight (not necessarily when he pulled the trigger), which would mean murder; or acted in panic, which would mean manslaughter.
The first question isn’t one a cop or anyone else can address because it’s “an ultimate question.” Worse, Detective Serino did IMPROPERLY testify that he believed Mr. Zimmerman had acted in self defense, while the prosecution napped and I had apoplexy. The testimony was stricken the next morning, though.
The second question concerns “state of mind,” and is another question which can’t be addressed by any witness other than Mr. Zimmerman himself. Rather the jury must infer state of mind based on the basis of Mr. Zimmerman’s conduct prior to the shooting itself, his subsequent statements, and his testimony — if he testifies.
Nearly everything else in the trial which doesn’t deal with the actual elements of murder, manslaughter, or the defense of “self-defense,” is an attack on Mr. Zimmerman’s credibility (thus lessening the believability of his self-defense claim); an attempt to appeal to the jurors’ emotions; and/or an attempt to blow smoke and distract the jurors from the elements.
In a case like this, the Defense attempts to make the jury see the events as tiny, discrete pieces; while the Prosecution tries to get the jury to see them as a single and continuous course of conduct.
BDL
Great, helpful post, boar_d_laze!
It is soooooooo good to see you!
Thanks for the post. I always read your comments a few times over with great interest.
I think that it is clearly obvious that GZ set the entirety of events in motion that evening. I think that is one aspect that has been well communicated and understood.
I think the habitual calling of the police on “suspicious” men all being black and the harsh language used to describe his frustration with everyone “getting away” clearly establishes that his actions were rooted in frustration and went far beyond the reasonable actions of a NW program coordinator and into unreasonable anger.
If I was driving with someone who used those words about someone in the car driving by us, I would make them pull over and let me out regardless of where I was and consider that persona danger and was out of control with road rage. So I think the “ill will” is obvious to nonviolent people who speak of a teen he has never meant in that manner, especially knowing there was no open cases for burglaries in the neighborhood..so no one got away… expect, of course, from GZ….
It seems there is fairly good evidence and testimony that there was a chase, and the assumption is that GZ was the one leading the chase at some point, which means someone was trying to get away. Saying that Trayvon was angry at GZ calling the police is utter rubbish since he has no warrant outstanding to fear the presence of police at all.
There is concrete testimony that his bloody photographs are not the injuries that they appear. The injuries were not serious in any manner and that GZ’s explanation of how his injuries were obtained are improbable and a great exaggeration by many counts. There are many examples of ways to get those injuries (and we can only hope that the prosecution can show the utility covers, sprinkler heads, and trees in the proximity of the struggle).
I was not concerned about Serino and his stating believe ability…it is obvious that GZ lies with comfort and ease as seen on Hannity (when he inserted a reassuring, comfortable laugh with it) and he also did not have all the evidence to refute it in front of him. If he was lying, Serino had no way to know there was zero blood on Trayvon that belonged to GZ. If he knew that, I suspect it could be a different call. I wish BLDR would have brought that up..but I do not think it is irreparable.
Actually, outside of DNA evidence, I thought the most compelling evidence was the believable way GZ carried himself on the Sean Hannity interview, just to see he “bold faced” lied about his knowledge of SYG. If I were a women on that jury, that would raise my awareness and certainly preface my concern about any other testimony he gave…including his “believe ability” in anything.
Rachel admitted her immaterial lie and was uncomfortable. GZ was all smiles and nods….he might have even winked…
Okay that is full of grammatical errors and misspellings. If only the world could stop when I type 🙂
Even to the most casual observer, ill will is about the most obvious issue here.
nice seeing you again, BDL
Whooooo! Excellent. Thank you for your very informative post, BDL.
Hi BDL long time no see
Good insight.
Not only does the defense want the jury to see events as tiny, discrete pieces, but it wants that treatment only for the events only pertaining to the defendant. He was on his way to Target. (Good American) He was NW (protector of innocent residents) He saw a real suspicious guy (not racist) and he phoned the police (responsible). He said stuff (not illegal) He got out of his truck (not illegal) He wanted an address (understandable) He walked around (not illegal) He had injuries (oh no, how horrible!) He yelled Help me Help me but nobody helped him (poor martyr) He fired one shot (but only one) He said Sir a lot and was polite to the police (good American again)
BUT Trayvon Martin – – –
Parents were divorced and he was slouching around the 7-11 displaying bad posture and he was talking Ebonics on the phone and he was real suspicious and he was menacing and used the sidewalk not as a thoroughfare but as a weapon and he might have carried a burglary tool and dropped it and he did not have the same last name as his brother and he could have hit Fogen as many as three times and all taken together he needed to be killed and cops believed that too.
You forgot the most important thing. He was mentoring the kids!
“You forgot the most important thing. He was mentoring the kids!”
What day are they supposed to take the stand ?? And will they refute Ostermans testimony about being Fogens best friend ?
I was looking forward to seeing Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver, Taaffe and Osterman get into a bitch slap fight on this “…no…he’s MY best friend…” issue.
And his lily-white wife needed protection!
And just where did he keep that burglary tool, all 3 foot of it, hidden? I say Taaffe planted it and since no one can refute it, to quote The Moron Man, “…..it’s I think…….undisputed…”
@Bordelaise,
Zimmerman already stated to SPD video cameras and the investigating team, after waiving his Miranda Right, that he AIMED his pistol and took care not to shoot his other hand.
Pretty strong “depraved indifference” to human life, done with enough time to make this decision, and done without panic.
He was trained in Martial Arts fighting. He could easily have held Trayvon Martin for the arriving officers, already en route,
Thanks for your report, “The second most important question is whether Mr. Zimmerman acted with depraved indifference at the time he provoked the fight (not necessarily when he pulled the trigger), which would mean murder; or acted in panic, which would mean manslaughter.”
Murder 2, for this coward.
He will remain silent!
This will be a good subject for discussion this weekend.
Frederick- yes! So far I’ve taken a few friendly wagers re: and his anticipated behavior. I predict that his overweening ego will both NOT get him to run (skip bail) and will compel him against his lawyer’s advice to take the stand. Since when have the lawyers ever controlled GZ anyway?
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cielo62…..If fogen does indeed take the stand, I would assume that he will take all the testimony (from everything that has been said by the witnesses) and come up with yet another variation of what “really” happened. It would be “really” interesting to hear..lol By the way, has anyone kept track of how many versions he has told so far?
To cover their own butts, MOM and Westlicker will strongly advise against. But I agree with you, Fogen — with his history of talking himself out of jams — won’t be able to resist getting on the biggest stage of his life to twist things his way.
Should I continue to stock up on ribs & chicken for the celebratory BBQ ? er, what in % points do you think he has of a not guilty. Despite the ME disaster, I think that means very little and I still think he’s in the under 5% range.
The Twittersphere loves Dr. Bao – #BaoDown.
I do too, he knows a snow job and used everything he could to mess with the defense in his own right! He got in some zingers
Agree. He has nothing to gain by testifying.
I think gz will be found guilty whether he testifies or not.
All that gz can do now is decide how he wants to go down in history. Does he want to always be seen as a depraved, coldhearted killer or does he want to be seen as someone who did what he did because of his psychological deflects that got the best of him?
Now is the time to admit that he is a manic/depressive with rage issues. He could say (true or not) that he wasn’t taking his medications properly + detoxing from muscle building steroids that nights.
He could then say that he wasn’t thinking straight that night because his rage controlled him…..that he was driven by his desire to be seen as a person who really could be a cop. He should go on to say he was on auto rage as he attempted to grab Trayvon to keep him from escape homeward. When Trayvon would not submit, gz boiled all the more and viciously shot Trayvon because of gz’s uncontrolled, rage/manic episode.
He could say that his enabling parents never praised him and that left him seeking recognition all his life to boost his low self esteem. Wanting to nab a suspect in order to be hailed as a hero was all he wanted.
He needs to then say he was horribly wrong to suspect Trayvon as one of those assholes that always got away. He has to say that his misidentification of Trayvon as a suspect is going to haunt him all of his life and that he knows he will pray to God every day for the remainder of his life asking God to forgive him.
And, he has to tell Sybrina and Tracy that he killed their son in cold blood and that he wishes he could undo that and that he could restore their son to him. He has to tell them that he was villainous to lie about what he had done and apologize while displaying the authentic emotions that go with such an apology.
Unless gz comes clean, he will go to jail with the world never understanding him in a sympathetic light from his mental problems. Instead, he will only be seen as a cold-hearted, lying murderer.
the goal of not testifying would be to limit any damage, and to hope that there’s enough reasonable doubt because the prosecution’s strategy didn’t work
YAHTC- that would be wonderful. But those self same issues will prevent him from ever taking responsibility for his actions. He is incapable of self reflection and remorse. He will go to prison as a cold hearted killer , but in HIS mind he has been totally misunderstood and not at fault for any if it.
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he could say that he was driven to ‘nab’ trayvon in order to garner some shred of love andf affection from cold authoritarian but also racist parents who yielded a cold, god-like authoritarian grip on him all his life.
if he did any of the things you suggest he would elicit some degree of respect from me. right now, he is sitting there like some somnambulant krispy kreme-stuffed toad on a log, blinking in a semi-conscious manner, watching as we all dance to the lies he’s propagated.
he sat there during prosecution’s opening statement, knowling damn well guy was articulating the truth or bloody close to it, and he didn’t so much as exhibit a scintilla of evidence of the truth affecting him in anyway.
he put the state of florida through an insane expense, and he put the nation through a great trauma, imo, with his adherence to his lies.
if he were to simply plead guilty and state the truth, he would be able to snatch a little honor from a dishonorable life.
YAHTC–Wow. Amazing psychological profile of crime and potential redemption. I’ve always seen him more with psychopathic tendencies, so his ability to self-reflect would be almost hopelessly stunted. He doesn’t have the capacity to engage in remorse or atonement. IMO, he will go out of this world just as disordered as he is now.
In many ways, he’s not unlike OJ: incapable of owning his actions, blaming others, never a moment of remorse for taking a human life. Just self-pity and very pissed that he got caught—at anything. But maybe he’ll square things, but he doesn’t seem hardwired to do that.
Not so sure with his inflated ego. I think his ego might compel him to want to speak. He seems like the type who thinks that he can talk himself out of stuff.
I really don’t think he will take the stand. He is, above all else, a coward, in my opinion. He doesn’t have the courage to face the prosecutor.
I agree with you, Mary Lou. I honestly believe that he doesn’t have the courage to face the prosecutor. However, one thing about psychopaths and narcissists is that they can never see themselves as others see them. They are convinced that they can sway ANYone and EVERYone with their slick patter, and thereby redeem their good name. They believe that they are so much smarter and cunning than everyone else, and that their pearls of justification will win the day. They always try. I don’t think GZ has the courage, but he might just have the delusional thinking that he could [wink wink] get away with it, if he just gives it one more try. Whether he actually does testify or not will be a brilliantly accurate index of his sanity.
Abbyj- wonderful post! I neglected the “coward factor” and relied purely on his ego. True. I really like your final sentence.
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Keep in mind that GZ tried to contact Angela Corey personally, probably hoping to talk her out of pressing charges. That’s kind of delusional, no?
Exactly Abby. They do think they are smarter and more cunning than anyone else. And I was speaking to that delusion that GZ has.
I think he is arrogant and over-confident that he will testify. I think he has 2 choices. Not testify and lose. Testify and lose, but at least he exercised a modicum of control in who helps direct his fate. I can’t see him not wanting to “sell” his story. He has always been a charmer, deceiver and manipulator. He is good at it. I don’t think he can resist.
Thank you professor for giving yourself to this cause. I can’t thank you enough, this is where I come for the truth about the case.
x2
x3
x10–thank you. It’s been more than informative, Fred. It’s been an island of thoughtful reflection with great insights.
Well, the good thing is we can no stop hearing from the GZ supporters that he will be “acquitted” in trial…that ship has sailed…
*now stop…
Scratch the immunity hearing, the SYG, and now the motion for acquittal. Not much left for Fogen to cling to.
Exactly…now we have the choice of…
Guilty – M2
Guilty – Aggravated Manslaughter
Not Guilty
None of those things are “acquittal”….and ALL give the Martins and Fultons the chance to sue and win wrongful death!
It also eliminates the defendants opportunity to make money off the incident if I am not mistaken…
Not if he is found “not guilty.”
Sorry, I meant to say “immunity”, not acquittal. I made that mistake several times…sorry.
KA- BUT nonetheless you’d be correct. Any penny GZ makes will be spent paying any damages awarded from the wrongful death suit.
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Prof: as a scientist and yes I am a scientist noting the degrees and experience, how can GZ be fround not guiluy? It seems BS to me as to why the defense goes on about trivial matters. Get on with the meat of the situation and let that which is trivial fall by the wayside. Maybe that is why I am not an attorney and eldest son is. Interesting note: when he was 3-4 years old, his mother and I would go out to dinner with him and he would go from table to table talking to people. The concesus of opinion was he would grow up to be an Attorney or a Politian. Well, the Attorny part proved to be true, so let us see what happens next.
Speaking from experience, you do the best you can with the hand you’re dealt.
You can’t turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse.
William W, could be that fogen is running the show, or thinks he is. Did you notice the aire of confidence that he displayed once the state rested? It was like a light switch turned on, and he was in ‘business mode with the chat and matter of fact approval nodding with his ‘collegues at the table.
That was unlike anything we have seen so far during hearings or the state’s case.
Bet we could see that detached birdlike head position and expressionless face again now. He could turn into quite the snakeoil showman whether he takes the stand or not.
But the best watch will be when the jury foreperson says “Guilty” and the Sheriffs Officers slap the iron on him within seconds. That smirk will be nothing short of hilarious at that point….he’ll be saying…but Serino said I’m one of the good guys,,,,,He didn’t argue when I said “justifiable homicide” what are you doing ?? Hey, they’re too tight…..SheLie…….help me, help me, help me, help me,….
Then Robbie the Racist will have a press conference stating how the jury is all racists and got it wrong and blah, blah, boring blah and Taaffe will be “In the Lions Den” spewing more “my house was being broken into and we need cac back to save the hood……hey, get back here with those mics…….turn those cameras back on me…..where you going…..
ay2z –
I think that confidence was that he actually believed he would win immunity immediately afterwards. I think he has no grasp on reality with his assumptions.
He can use his winning charm on the jury . . .
Like he did on Hannity and have a comforting smile as he tells a direct, indisputable lie.
Except those so-called smiles on Hannity ended up looking like smirks, all at inappropriate times, too. GZ shows no remorse and is arrogant enough to believe he’ll get away with this just as he has before. In reading his old MySpace page, his announcement regarding his charges being dropped was GZ saying to his friends, “See? I told you I’d beat this crap…I can talk my way out of anything” Then he bragged about his friends doing a “pinch” for him rather than him going to jail or that they would run to his sister’s aid at his request. Where are all those friends now? Don’t seem to be around for GZ, do they?
We’re still waiting for all those black friends to come marching into town…..you know, Osterphoole being his “…token white friend…” and all.
This says it all……..
Did you see GZ sweating this morning? Did you see the look on Gracie’s face during the acquittal argument? I suspect that O’Mara told GZ that if the judge denies the motion for acquittal, he’s going to prison for life.
One would hope, Xena, but I don’t think MOM and/or Westlicker have the backbones to play it that straight. .
The conversations probably went like this, “Don’t worry buddy, we got yer back. We’ll get you off, right Westy?” As West and MOM wink and mouth “He’s screwed, did you get that book deal signed yet?”
LOL@nocamo33.
Vanilla Ice Cream West has other things to worry about other than GZ’s case. 🙂
Some reporters noted that Trayvon’s slim figure was quite apparent in the autopsy pictures
I surmise those pictures alone destroy Zimmerman’s claim of self defense
And yet, so many people needed spelled out what anyone looking at the evidence already knew.
“Not much left for Fogen to cling to.”
…..other than jail cell bars………..just sayin’…..!!
Not so, because if he is found “not guilty” by the jury, that will be an acquittal.
But not as far as the Martins being able to sue, right?
I think I was confusing the words “immunity” and “acquittal” .
I’m not totally certain but believe since he didn’t go the SYG route he can still be sued in civil court if acquited. Believe part of the benefit to the SYG option (if judge dismisses charges) keeps you off the hook in later civil lawsuits.
Right, that is what I was thinking. I just switched the terms “Immunity” and “acquittal” in my head.
Now, regardless of outcome, the Martin/Fultons can sue GZ, his estate, and anything he hopes to make in this lifetime.
Bet it makes donations trickle, as now the Martins can stake claim to any future income or property,
They have a good, good case for wrongful death I feel. They do not really have to deal with the self defense issue as much, but really, GZ initiated every single event that happened that night that led to their son’s death. A son that was college bound and full of promise of a long life ahead.
@Thrace
Although OJ was found not guilty of murder 1, he was still sued in civil court and lost.
That is correct. he must win an immunity hearing and he waived it for several reasons.
Fred, Of course no one knows for certain but, at this point, what would you say are the odds that GZ could be found “not guilty”? Any thoughts on that?
Professor Leatherman I understand why you got out of defense business but people needed you.especially death penalty cases.I don’t believe in the death penalty but that is only my opinion.I live in Canada and it was abolished here long ago..Around 1959 a14 year old boy named Steven Truscott was sentenced to hang.He has since been exonerated.I was his age and my Mother was adamant about his innocence.He was released after 10 years and lived under an assumed name even his children did not know who he really was.DNA proved his innocence not so long ago.Just want to say I know you have never lowered your standards like fogen’s lawyers have done you just believe in the right to a fair trial.I still work but read every comment here and go and watch the trial after.So running on 4 hours of sleep.I know who is commenting before I even look.It is hard to believe that is possible.this web site has been blocked at my work so can’t get on. This site should be a study for all law students.The knowledge and evidence you and everyone here have uncovered is mind boggling.And the humor is fantastic.
Amen, Pat.
Yes, offenders need honorable defense attorneys.
In federal court where I work, the criminal justice act attorneys appointed by a federal judge to defend the indigent practice honorably.
I haven’t seen the defense team behave as officers of the court should here. I don’t see any inkling of a moral compass, personal integrity or professional ethics.
They put their self interest above their own client’s interest. I see them disregarding instructions, lying to the media and the court, petitioning the judge to relax the rules in their behalf, playing underhanded, dirty tricks to manipulate public opinion and the worst, victimize Trayvon and his family yet again.
I don’t understand unbridled greed for celebrity status.
parrot says
this is what west does normally and he took a leave to work with his one time mentee o’mara. it is also what fred once did.
kind of makes his current behavior puzzling, doesn’t it?
Sorry, I meant “immunity”, not “acquittal”
No more “immunity”….
alpha
following
Thanks for the summary article!
You be welcome.
🙂
I am very, very grateful to you for providing this forum!
Mr. Leatherman, are you surprised by the lack of what you had called a “wind up” witness. It seems the prosecution has a lot of facts floating around, but they are not tied together in a coherent narrative.
As far the entirety of fogen’s testimony: He didn’t play a part in anything regarding the murder. It wasn’t his gun; it was thee gun. He never says what he was doing while Trayvon was beating the shxt out of him; but he can tell you everything the boy was supposedly doing. It wasn’t the boy screaming because of the defendant’s weapon pointed directly upon his person; (which miraculously came alive and floated into the air by itself); but it was him screaming savagely for no reason at all. All of his answers regarding himself or either “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember.”
Hail the Alpha Blush!
@Cielo62
HA! You are a riot!
Blushy- watch that! I might get arrested!
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@Cielo62
I got your bail money!
Blushed- LOL! I knew I could count on you, mi Amiga!
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@Cielo62
You got it, mi Amiga!
Hi yah, Blush
@MasonBlue
Hola Fred!