Welcome to liveblogging day 8 Zimmerman trial (morning session)

Wednesday, July 3, 2013

Good morning:

Court will resume this morning at 8:30 am EDT with a hearing outside the presence of the jury regarding the admissibility of testimony by a professor at the local community college introducing the defendant’s textbook and course work on the law of self-defense and Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. Also at issue is the admissibility of the defendant’s application for employment with a police department in a county in Virginia and an application to ride-a-long as a civilian with a Sanford police officer.

The evidence from the school is being offered to show that the defendant knew the law of self-defense and the Florida SYG law.

The applications for police employment and to ride-along are being offered to show his interest in police work (i.e., he is a police wannabe).

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.



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1,549 Responses to Welcome to liveblogging day 8 Zimmerman trial (morning session)

  1. Fred C says:

    I hate the way West is allowed to filibuster am make mountains out of words, phrases and objects.

  2. DruDo says:

    Bernie looking at West like he’s nuts.

  3. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    West is stupid. Why would the rain discriminate and wash Trayvon’s DNA off, but not GZ’s DNA? I swear West must be a test tube baby. smh!

  4. LiveByTheGulf says:

    I’m watching the HLN version. The person who did the DNA matching just testified. There was no Trayvon DNA on Zimmerman’s jacket (except for velcro on right-hand cuff). If Trayvon was shot in the heart while straddling Zimmerman, shouldn’t there have been a some blood on Zimmerman’s jacket? The blood would drop down onto Zimmerman’s jacket via gravity.

  5. DruDo says:

    Listening to West is like watching paint dry.

  6. It’s West…Incoming!

    (West would complain if you hung him with a new rope).

    Watch his excruciating effort to run out the clock.

    Oh hell to the hell no. He’s gonna argue the ole treehouse ‘the rain washed it out.’


    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Hi Crane, great to see your fonts again. Crane, if I was a person that drink, I would gladly sit down with you any day and have a beer with you. I know that you and I would have a great time. You keep it real and your down-to-earth. Professor made a great choice when he chose you as his lifetime mate.

      • I’d be happy to sit down and raise a glass of 7-Up with you any day! (I don’t drink anything with alcohol in it anymore, but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy a sit down and have some good conversation)

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      “Oh hell to the hell no. He’s gonna argue the ole treehouse ‘the rain washed it out.”

      Exactly! They’re full of dung! Smh!

  7. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Some of the comments on the ticker tape are sickening. Why they refuse to accept the fact that GZ is guilty is beyond me, but then again, it said in the last days that people would call evil good and good evil. The bible is fullfilling.

  8. Dave says:

    All of this blood splattered on the front of Z’s shirt proves that he had his jacket open. Why would he be wearing it open on a cold,rainy night? Obviously to make it easy to draw his gun.

  9. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Colin, your on a roll this afternoon and I’m enjoying it.

  10. colin black says:

    foggagges jacket labelled B because he killed decency.

  11. colin black says:

    Crane-Station says:

    July 3, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    West needs a continuance. He’s never seen this before.
    Trayvon needed a continuance off life.

    He had ever laid eyes on your client.An he laid hands lead an profanity threats an carried out threats.

    So sit your boney arse down an be a nice old man skellator or get back to

    Castle Grey Skull.

    I share a dream with foggagge to be a judge.

    Just to be able to Channell through J Nelson at guilty verdict an sentanceing.

  12. colin black says:


  13. colin black says:

    The Verdict please J Nelson briefly looks an reads .

    Stares at foggagge helpful standing up like a good obedient boy.


    A G P
    L O L
    L D A
    S N

    A G P
    N E U
    D O K
    R E
    G D

  14. colin black says:

    Trays Grey Hoody tested an labelled A That’s what he wore as foggage blew him away

    R I P

    Trayvon gone never forgotten.

  15. Nothing on the gun, and nothing in the fingernails to show head slamming, head bashing, beating, bloodying the nose smothering or anything else GZ claimed.

  16. colin black says:

    I would pay to watch CRUMP take those 2 chumps to school.

    Oh I forgot Ive already seen that an wearing the T SHIRT.

  17. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Trayvon was only 17 years old for twenty-one days.

  18. sparger says:

    Why are they even pretending they need to talk to Crump. They had Rachael. She was their problem not Crump.

  19. colin black says:

    Ive said it once twice thrice

    uno duo TRAY X

    Ths STATE will devastate in rebuttal off the defences sham /shame/non/defence.

    • colin black says:

      This is there case in chief.
      They don’t throw all cards down on the first hand.

      They let the deflence make a fool of themselves

      Turn all there wittneses into theres.

      Oh theve already done that an bought a T Shirt.

      Then they hily gun the nails on foggagges coffin shut forever.

      With RE BUTT ALL.

      Or as foggagge will be known an described .

      When he hits the


      Free Butt for ALL.

  20. West needs a continuance. He’s never seen this before.

  21. DruDo says:

    Like West even knows what he’s looking at. pfff

  22. Woow! says:

    FoxNews reporting that JN is putting the pressure on the state to rest its case.

    This is why their view are so stooooopid.

    • willisnewton says:

      my question is, why are you watching faux news and expecting anything that resembles news?

      • Woow! says:

        I’m not.. I was surfing to see what pundit were saying today since I have not been able to tune in much and I ran across their heading. :)-

        I need my brain cells can’t do Faux

  23. DruDo says:

    If I were on that jury, the highlights, at this point, in my mind, would be the remarks Z made during his phone call to nen: “These assholes always get away” and “effen punks” (although I believe he said coons), the fact he ignored the dispatcher “we don’t need you to do that”, that he followed TM for no reason other than he looked “suspicious”, also he already had the gun “racked” or had the time to rack it before firing, he grossly exaggerated his injuries as an excuse (deliberately lied) for killing TM and those injuries were very minor and had the knowledge to do that. Those are just some reasons why I would be leaning towards a murder2 conviction. But, that’s just me and I’m not unbiased.

  24. KateW says:


  25. Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

    I think it’s important that only a small amount of DNA is needed to make a comparison, so the fact that NOT even 1 millionth of an index card amount of DNA was found on TM is significant…

  26. colin black says:

    D N A

    ov foggagge was labelled D A T NI GG ITTI.

  27. Woow! says:

    Have faith for Tracy and Sabrina:

    Who can the defense bring on as a witness? All the defense can do is put people on the stand to say

    1. CAC is not a racist
    2. His life was in danger (hearsay)
    3. TM beat his head on the concrete (disproved)
    4. He never followed TM (disproved)

    I am sure the state is ready to cross anyone they put up there.

    Now if they want to put the daddy, mama, and Shelly that would be good… any testimony would be hearsay.

    I think the state has provided enough evidence to get a conviction. Any sane reasonable person knows that CAC is guilty as sin.

    I still have issues with the jury.

    • willisnewton says:

      thanks. all good points.

    • cielo62 says:

      Woow~ I believe that the prosecution went with KISS (keep it simple stupid). They HAVE more than enough to convict Zimmerman. He gave them an embarrassment of riches. They’re sticking to several solid points to make this stick.


  28. My Forehead Tho says:

    They have the identity of the people who called in during skype interview:

    • willisnewton says:

      Contempt of court charges can be filed, should be filed, IMO.

      • colin black says:

        oh lighten up it wasFUNNY

        M O M Said don’t be surprised if someone is playing with us right now!?

        No shit Sherlock…

        Do you think we should send the pranksters to Quantamo Bay.

        Foggagge an his darn tootin stooped lawers desrve to be mocked

        O Manic was flappin

        L Nelson unflappable an cool as a cucumber

        an even then she had to tell him a 3 rd I I r c to hang up

        She was brilliant he had an enema.

    • cielo62 says:

      My Forehead~ Does this carry legal penalties? I HOPE SO!


    • Mike says:

      I don’t know why any one thinks its the witnesses Skype was being bombarded like that, when the screen belongs to the state . The state should have run the Skype app in full screen. It was the state receiving the calls not the wittness. Think about it you can’t see a persons computer screen when you are on Skype you can only see your prospective.

  29. KittySP says:

    Ok, everyone lets all try to remain calm, and pray without ceasing!

  30. Mojo says:

    If they plan on resting today they still have 3.5 hours to bring in the final heavy hitters which will allow them to tie it altogether come closing argument. I’m hoping so anyway

    • willisnewton says:

      wow. speechless. They have a long way to go, and only some ways to get there on rebuttal when the defense goes.

      What’s up with the clubhouse videos being introduced but not explained? Is this groundwork so they can call them up on rebuttal? I’m so not a lawyer.

      Have they “forced” GZ to take the stand yet? I don’t think so.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I think whether he takes the stand or not. He is cooked.

      • Woow! says:

        1. I don’t think MOM ever planned for him to take the stand.
        2. I don’t think MOM ever thought he would be found not guilty (would be a bonus for MOM if he did get off)
        3. MOM never put together a defense, he entertained known racists for a year for financial gain
        4. Racist was out in full force yesterday trying to discredit the ME as being corrupt, AC as being corrupt
        5. Yesterday on one of the racist sites it was floated the MOM will file a motion to dismiss and JNOV (threw me for a loop b/c JNOV is for civil cases although there is something similar to JNOV in criminal cases. I do not see JN reversing a guilty verdict for this POS.
        6. If MOM put Shelly, PapaZ and Mama, what could they possible tell the jury that will help that CAC; ooh Georgia is a good person (not), he mentored black kids (STFU), he helped a homeless man getting beat by an officer’s son (so what)… he still murdered an innocent kid.

        The key here is was his life in danger (no)
        Did he follow TM (yes)
        Did he lie, and lie, and lie (yes)

        I feel the prosecution has planted doubt in the jury’s mind, lets just hope the jury is fair.

  31. Sophia33 says:

    Someone please post a clip of the fireworks. I missed it someone knocked on my door.

  32. Deborah Moore says:

    Does West want a 4 day holiday because the Girls have Big Plans with the family?

    • elle says:

      Gotta shoot that bottle rocket out of a bottle of Corona on the boat. Cuz, they are the cool kids. Gag.

  33. Deborah Moore says:


  34. DruDo says:

    West is amazingly disrespectful!

  35. ay2z says:

    If the defense is not planning to put on a case, that means the jury can begin to deliberate tonight.

  36. Deborah Moore says:

    Doing a happy dance here.
    (Yes, I could you the excercise.)
    Go Judge, Go Judge.
    PS – I always try to piss off the person I really really want to ask for something inappropriate. /s)

  37. Woow! says:

    What just happened?

  38. Fuck me runnin. She just yelled at West again.

    State will rest this afternoon.

  39. My Forehead Tho says:


    If the State rest and the Defense rest, does that mean the case is over and it’s time for closing arguments?

    If so, then there is no doubt in my mind that Fogen will walk…

    • colin black says:

      The state can rest

      be there best bet in reality thease two hams couldn’t be dragged from the mainstream media live feed

      So they will present there wittnes whom we have seen an heard already

      only question has foggagge the balls

      to explain it all away

      I THINK NOT.

  40. ay2z says:

    The Skype interruptors may have just allowed the state to not be able to conclude today.

  41. Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

    I’m scared now, they had better bring out some big guns, they should not be resting today! maybe by Friday but not TODAY WTF.. this last few hours better be good…

  42. tharealkeisha says:

    She said No end of discussion.. Bwahahaha

  43. disappointed says:

    lmao! West is like preschool child

  44. Puck says:

    BDLR said maybe into Friday.

  45. Tzar says:

    What part of END OF DISCUSSION does he not understand?

  46. whonoze says:

    “End of discussion!” West babbles on…

  47. greenwarrior4 says:

    “End of discussion” hasn’t penetrated West’s brain.

  48. Two sides to a story says:

    Put West in the time out chair.

  49. disappointed says:

    she is getting pissed

  50. Judy75201 says:

    “I’m not doing that”. “End of discussion.” STFU DON

  51. fauxmccoy says:


  52. Sabrina B. says:

    This is B.S. How can they be allowed to keep saying they aren’t ready when they make no effort?

  53. breelee says:

    WHAT? Is the state just throwing in the towel? I’m ready to just give up on this trial. Theres still so much to prove, what are they thinking?

    • gbrbsb says:

      IDK, worrying to say the least. Either they have a bombshell coming now, are going to prove their case in cross, or they are sure they have proved their point… suspense is killing !

  54. ay2z says:

    JN is taking the reins with a hard bit.

  55. disappointed says:

    he wants a 4 day weekend

  56. Mojo says:

    They’ve been tied up, but O’Mara has plenty of time to go on CNN or any other show where he can pimp himself and his piece of shit client

  57. Dave says:

    Spank him good,Your Honor!

  58. ay2z says:

    Judge Nelson lectures West, that it’s Almost a month since we started trial or even trial hearings, “to have this court continue keeping this jury selection… I find that very hard to do.”

  59. My Forehead Tho says:

    LOL they’re still going after Crump!!!

    “Mr. Crump has been available since jury selection.”

  60. whonoze says:

    Shit. JN just said the State has told her they will rest today. The case they have presented so far is half-assed at best.

  61. Judy75201 says:

    Don is asking for something he knows he can’t get just so he can look all long-suffering and mistreated.

  62. KittySP says:

    Listening to the HLN contributors give their opinions about this case I watch them and their prejudice and bias is so obvious. It’s as if they never give consideration to what Trayvon may have been feeling. Why is it so inconceivable to them that he was defending himself from this creepy ass man that had been following him! While waiting for court to resume I took a long shower and just let the water run off my body in the hopes that it will wash away some of what I am feeling right now. Y’all please keep me lifted in prayer!

  63. Unabogie says:

    The state is resting today?

    I don’t understand this one bit.

  64. Puck says:

    JN said the state is resting today!

  65. Tzar says:

    Oh wow the state plans on resting today!!!

  66. disappointed says:

    what? resting today????

  67. Sabrina B. says:

    Planning on resting today. State.

  68. ay2z says:

    WOW, didn’t know the state plans on resting today.

  69. Deborah Moore says:

    More cry-babying.
    How long have they had to depose Krump?
    Too busy doing tv and ice cream cones.

  70. Judy75201 says:

    You had weekends, Mr. FlusterBluster

  71. ay2z says:

    West is whining, JN tries to get him on point.

  72. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    They want to depose Crump on the 4th of July. GTFOH.

  73. Sabrina B. says:

    they’re back.

  74. Judy75201 says:

    HAHAHAHAHAHA Crump’s depo again.

  75. ay2z says:

    Sound is on, jury yet to return. Scheduling matters in the meantime.

  76. bettykath says:

    Jonathan Turley has a new thread up. Of all the things going on in this trial he chose to spank the prosecution for filing about motion about the ice cream photo. He continues to say the prosecution has no case.

    I have to admit that the prosecution has missed a number of points and they have given the defense lots of openings without objections. They are not presenting this case as strongly as they could.

    • Malisha says:

      Turley defended Fogen from the beginning. He doesn’t kick people off his blog for disagreeing, like Jeralyn does, and he hasn’t gone apeshit calling for Corey to be jailed for prosecuting a murderer, like Dershowitz has, but he’s basically in the same boat with them, just trying to be more dignified. I saw him for a defender of the wrong people long ago when he defended and actually spent eight years protecting the constitutional rights of child-molester Eric Foretich whose daughter not only confirmed that he had raped her, but expressed anger that her mother had not defended her with violence rather than with “law.” I don’t know what makes Turley donate his considerable power to such unworthy recipients; there surely are people who NEED constitutional protection in this world and Fogen is not one of them. Pew!

  77. ay2z says:

    Here we go.

  78. ay2z says:

    Thinking that he Skype witness Pleasance is moving to an other location to have some sort of more secure connection, or the Skype connection he has, ‘secured’. Maybe he has had to take a helicopter off the plateau.

  79. tharealkeisha says:

    Hello class I’m always late.

  80. Judy75201 says:

    Why hasn’t trial restarted yet?

  81. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Who has link to prosecution witness list? Isn’t Taafe on the witness list too? He runs his mouth like water with excuses and BS.

    • ay2z says:

      Yes, he’s on the witness list, but not sure the state will bother, and Taaffe won’t respect Judge Nelson and he and the defense team will make sure he speaks out of turn before an objection.

      If he does take the stand and does a NG or JVM type comment, JN should smack shackles on him and have him led out of court.

      (he flirted with those interviewers to throw them off their game (ie: to Jane last year, he said thanks for having him back and “I missed you.”

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        The state might rest their case today. What? Okay, I’m not going to say what I’m thinking. Granny<—going back to her corner and hush.

  82. Stormwatch says:

    Is anyone other than Don West going to bring up gun recoil? He said in his opening statement that Zimmerman’s gun “had a ton of recoil.” I’ve read the reviews on Zimmerman’s gun and know somebody that owns one. That gun is well known for excessive recoil and West even brought it up. I had hoped the state’s firearm expert would address that. Why no further mention of it?

  83. My Forehead Tho says:

    One would think Fogen would have looked something similar to this after the incident. Gabriel Aubry, Halle Berry’s ex, claimed Halle’s fiance repeatedly punched and slammed his head into concrete.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Thank you!Now that is someone who got his ass beat and I’m sure he fought back. Zimmerman walked away with one scratch on his face after supposedly lying there and doing nothing.

    • Suuure…
      MoM would argue that you don’t know if the image to the left is not 10min after the fight as his body started the process of healing.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Not to mention Olivier Martinez (Halle’s fiance) had significant injuries to his hands, Trayvon had none:

    • rayvenwolf says:

      I’ve said it in the past. anyone who looks at GZ’s face that night at the station and then listens to his story and BELIEVES it is a special kind of fool. I’ve been in fights, seen fights and the aftermath of people I know being beat down. GZ is a walking crock of shyte who wouldn’t know the truth if it walked up and punched him in his fat doughy face.

    • Woow! says:

      Woow..did Gabriel get 1 lick on dude. That was a serious bootay kicking.

    • Girlp says:

      Now this is a picture of someone who got a beatdown…Rhianna is another unfortunate example of someone who was beaten as bad a Aubry looks she had more cuts and bruises.

  84. chi1224 says:

    Does anyone remember Fogen’s vitals at the scene coming in? I don’t recall that the emt at the scene said anything about it, and I think it’s important to get that before the jury. So much so that I was thinking of emailing Bernie– if I can find his email address, which so far- I can’t.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Its in the EMT report. Everything was normal. As in not still coming down from the adrenaline rush of having been in a serious fight. He was clam and focused. Answered questions clearly etc – you know unlike someone who would be dizzy or on the verge of blacking out after repeated punches and moments of head meeting concrete.

      • Woow! says:

        Only a psycho could remain calm with normal rhythms after being involved in a traumatic event such as the (killing) death of another individual.

        I cringe and feel sorrow/pain when I see a stranger hurt because I am a normal person with compassion for fellow man. That thing on trial is subhuman. Also, that CAC has some serious mental problems/instability that needs to get exposed before he is let loose on society or the prison system.

        • rayvenwolf says:

          Yeah when it first got released every pro T site was dissecting that bit of tidbit. Along with that fact what blood was found on his head was dried.

          I’m not too worried about him in the prison system. His mouth and belief that he is smarter than everyone else will do him in.

    • elle says:

      It is stunning, but everything was completely normal. He is truly cold-blooded. Anyone with a soul would have been experiencing a horrific adrenaline rush, and their vitals would have been off the charts. He does not have one scintilla of compassion for the life he took. I really believe he is a sociopath.

    • Nef05 says:

      I can’t remember. I DO remember the 15/15 on the Glasgow Coma Scale testimony, during the “establish he was calm” part of the prosecution. I can believe the would have missed the vitals. I’m 90% it was part of that testimony.

      • chi1224 says:

        When I get a chance I’m going to watch that testimony again to see what came in, I think it’s very important for the jury to know Fogen had normal vitals after those blood curling screams– because it wasn’t him screaming!

  85. colin black says:

    Diary 73 excuse the pun

    But its im material.

    We have speculated for best part of 16 mnths. on the fatal shot.

    We know it was contact .
    point blank.
    We know foggage had a hold of TRAYVONS hoodie an sweatshirt with his left hand preventing him from fleeing.

    Wheth they wer up right or vertical on ground foggagge on top TRAYVON
    On bottom or vice versa again immaterial
    As when the beast toof the fatal shot he had a gripp a strong gripp on his VICTIMS TWO UPPER garments

    He was going no where
    Wether Trayvon pushed away or pulled away he has snared antrapped foggaggge was holding on not for dear life.

    But for cheap life

    Trayvon was screaming people were emergeing
    He was illegally detaining a screaming crying for his momma begging for his life at gun point.

    First office on scene gun drawn
    bullet goes in him.


  86. diary73 says:

    I do not understand why the defense keeps emphasizing that the shooter did not NEED to have injuries. I understand that self-defense does not rely solely on such, but GZ’s reasons given for taking Trayvon’s life has to do with the assault he said Trayvon delivered. His injuries, at least, must align with his reason for killing. Am I right?

    • RobertSF says:

      Yes, but it’s the prosecution who needs to tell the jury that the issue isn’t the severity of GZ’s injuries but rather the truthfulness of GZ’s account on how he got his injuries. They are so superficial that they don’t support the claim that he was attacked and beaten up.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Yes. it’s his claim thst Martin literally tried to kill him and even told him as much so his injuries literally should match his story.

    • in FOGENS WORLD and Taffee,andOSTERPUTZ,we would all need to wear bulletproof clothing when we left our homes

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        And if you want.to.walk.to the 7/11 make sure you live in a crime free area or you’re automatically a suspect regarding.previous crimes.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        This trial sure has me thinking that I need to buy all of my grandsons a bulletproof vest and helmet in America. That’s a shame before God. Smh!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Not exactly. With SYG, you need only have a reasonable fear for your life.

      In Britain, you can only display force proportionate to the force applied to you. So if the attacker has no weapon, you can’t use a weapon to defend yourself.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS. The thing with SYG is that you can’t pursue and start a confrontation. Fogen didn’t have a good reason to pursue and why he’s always looking for an address. I think I know one for him!

    • Malisha says:

      THey’re now emphasizing that he did not need to have injuries because everybody now KNOWS that his injuries were “very insignificant.” Now, he can just have “fear” of the “next” injury.


      • Aunt Bea says:

        It is an absolute argument. Many have died from one blow to the head. Please don’t down play that possibility.

        If this jury hasn’t seen GZ as the aggressor already, they won’t ever. If they think it was OK to get out of the vehicle for any reason, after what he just experienced, they don’t WANT to see him as the aggressor.

        There is reasonable doubt all over the place after that…..
        if you are looking for it.

  87. saw this on DU last nite,whadda ya think?

    Trayvon’s earbuds

    I am confused about the earbuds. Rachel said Trayvon had them on and was talking with her using the the earbuds. Today I saw a photo of Trayvon, a head close up taken at the scene, shortly after pronounced dead, the Ambu bag used for attempted resuscitation is still visible. Also visible next to his head, are his earbuds. (I won’t post the photo, it’s disturbing)
    I know kids, and how protective they are of their phones and accessories. If Trayvon intended to fight Zimmerman, he would have removed his earbuds from his ears, and put them in his pocket. The earbuds were later found by officers who put them in Trayvon’s pocket, but the photo is evidence that they were originally found next to his head. I think the earbuds show Trayvon was the one taken by surprise. Not sure where the phone was found, perhaps ripped from the earbuds.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Prosecution mentioned in opening statement that the earbuds were next to his head. Phone was dropped between body and sidewalk, I believe, while bullet casing was on other side of body. Agree with your 2 concluding sentences.

    • colin black says:

      I Know please don’t I saw it the other dat befor court had started

      The tv crews must have just been panning in on things an we were watching live feed from the court.

      An you know when there saying testing 1 2 3 sorta stuff

      An all of a suden they threw up TRAYVON DEAD WITH THE TEAT.
      the photo Tracy Martin was shown I exspect I was stunned latterly frozen with shock.

      After all this time I never wanted to see the poor wee dead CHILD FACE

      Im tearing up again as I was when veiwng it friggin tragic.

      No wonder that tup of shite couldn’t look back on his greatest achievement,


    • tashatexas77048 says:

      The location of the earbuds, phone and flashlight tell you exactly where this started. The T fight is a lie and BDLR has subtely hinted to the jurors that Zimmerman planted his keys there. The fact.that the state hasn’t mentioned that Zimmerman lied about…or the flawed timeline, baffles me. Im sure its coming though.

      • Unabogie says:

        Well this I totally agree with. You and I may have different theories of the case, but IMO the state has yet to explain to the jury what theirs is. Is this normally saved until the final summation? Because so far, I just haven’t seen them laying it out there. On the other hand, that’s all the defense does, is hammer home their theory of the case.

        • Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

          If I may offer my opinion on what the prosecution is doing thus far, I think they are getting the defense to commit to their theory and then they are presenting evidence that proves it either unlikely or impossible… for example, all last week they let them hammer home on GZ’s head being slammed and the injuries proved it.. i.e. Omara continuously showing the pics of GZ, then BOOM, ME says wounds are minor based on everything including pics at scene, Physician Assistant exam, videos of GZ at police station, and his responses to officers… indisputable… I honestly think they are putting the defense in a position where they look untrustworthy when they tweak their argument to fit the evidence, just my opinion… I believe the defense is treating the jury like they are stupid and the prosecution is saying common sense will tell you that what they are asserting is impossible… again with the ME, when the defense asked that dumb question about gravity making the blood coming from GZ’s nose go down his throat, she said he would have coughed it up… thus telling the jury it is not reasonable for someone to have been beaten the way GZ claims and not have DNA anywhere on them…

          • Unabogie says:

            I agree with your opinion, I’m just not sure how effective they’ve been at this so far. I wish they’d do a little more hand holding in such a way that they leave some “sound bites” in the ears of the jurors. Maybe I watch too many movies, but I want to hear some better dialog going on.

          • Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

            I agree, my wife and I were discussing it, and she made the same point… they do need to get more combative, although I think they still have time to do it… depending on how well the expert testimony is, the defense will still have to put on a case and they will have a chance to do it then, but the rest of the prosecutions case, I will like to see them being more verbally active

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The phone was near him as well.

      The Treestump always made a big deal about him putting the earbuds in his pocket in prep for a fight, but that was never the case.

  88. diary73 says:

    I cannot see GZ well at all from where I am sitting. I like my iPhone vantage point better, but this experience, to sit and watch history, is priceless!

  89. diary73 says:

    So, do I understand this correctly: Since both garments were pressed together when the shot was fired, does this debunk O’Mara’s claim of Trayvon leaning over GZ with a hanging hoodie? The under sweatshirt was not loose.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      That’s what I believe but, unless it is pointed out, that will be the only theory out there.

    • whonoze says:

      I suspect that will be a matter of contention. IIRC, the ME’s report indicates the gun was several inches away from the entry wound in the body when the shot was fired. This would suggest the white sweatshirt was loose as well. Trayvon WAS a skinny kid.

      I wonder if the State is even going to introduce the theory that GZ was holding TM’s clothes and pulling them away from his body, per LLMPapa’s convincing (to me anyway) demonstrations. Guy didn’t really make a point about the fabric tears around the bullet holes indicating a diagonal entry, which, along with the straight path of the bullet through the body, would seem to support Papa’s hypothesis.

      WFTV is reporting a ‘tip’ that the State may only have a few witnesses left to call, and may rest their case soon. They’ve been consistently wrong in guessing which witnesses are coming next, and I hope they’re wrong here. There’s too much useful evidence the State has either introduced but not explained (much less emphasized), or not introduced at all.

      • Unabogie says:

        Yeah, where at the FDLE investigators? Where are the people to walk the jury through the timeline? What about demonstrating the problem with the circling of the car when compared to the NEN call?

        If they rest this soon it would be a travesty.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          They had better not even be close to resting. Ballistics? FDLE that picked up the case after SPD left off? Medical examiner of Trays body? Clubhouse video explanation? Zimmerman’s phone records? Timeline of events? DNA expert?

      • ada4750 says:

        You are so right. There is about a million aspects not discussed yet.

        For example, unless i missed it the prosecution never mentioned the time delay after GZ said “he ran” (the moment he got a view on RVC) and the beginning of the confrontation.

  90. colin black says:

    A Question serious

    Why on Earth did O Manic go on an on about differing type of automatic safety features re guntrigger pressure needed to discharche projectile.

    On an on about this gun having a hard pressure first shot
    Then a gentler pressure in following shots.

    When foggagge owned a K al Tech exclusively trained with a k tech.

    Spent hours an hours at the range proll in the swamps with m onsterman shootinf thousands of rounds?

    Who gives a flying grap about other guns pressure friggin triggers.


    was murdered by a metal midget with a kal tech.


    D O A

    He through a yellow blanked over a CHILD

    Now a wana be flop cant even go toilet to plop plop


    An all he has given the Parents the FAMILY the world an TRAYVONS LOVED ONES IS PAIN.

    All because he iz a lame insane man who feigned an shamed a COUNTRY .

    No retreat at the twin lakes only stand your ground an then count the pounds.

    As the blood money rolls in with sin comes redemption.

  91. missed a lot was out all morning,trying to caych up
    hello y.all….this is soooo hard…way too many stooopits with guns out there,be careful people

  92. Dee says:

    I really feel that tray got away from, Z screaming and hallowing for his life. And Z grabbed him by the shirt swinging him to the ground and got on top of T, why he was still holding T-shirt with his hand then he shot him. Meaning the shirt was closer to the muzzle and away from the body. I bet they. The forensic will say that the hole in T chest is not lining up with the hold in his chest. However, it did line up with the two shirts because Zimmerman had his both shirts in his hand when he grabbed him then shot him. Then Trayvon fell to the ground on his face grabbing his chest. And said ”you shot me” which in Trayvon’s mind, he said to shoot me probably you shot me. What did I do to you for that.

  93. diary73 says:

    As we filed out, I saw Sabrina. We are not permitted to touch or get close, but I did ask the officer if I could tell her something. She heard me and gave her consent.

    I told her that everyone at the Frederick Leatherman blog wanted her to know we love her. She smiled and said, ” Thank you so much.” My eyes welled up as I left her.

    The display of Trayvon’s clothing was very emotional for her, terribly so.

  94. trina cosbie says:

    So, please someone tell me if I got this wrong. The Kel-Tec gun has to be loaded with 1 bullet in the chamber each time its fired, so essentially Fogen had one ready to go??

    • Mojo says:

      Exactly. His gun still had a fully loaded magazine after one shot had already been fired. This means he had one locked and loaded in the chamber and all he had to do was pull the trigger. And as we all speculate… he loaded one into the chamber as he’s exiting his truck (the racking sound is heard).

      • trina cosbie says:

        WOWZERS!!!! Thx for the clarification.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          technically, the magazine would then have 6 rounds and the 7th moved into the chamber, which is the condition of the gun when amy siewart received it.

  95. colin black says:

    time for a now whipping post?

  96. Dee says:

    He was smart when he had rung that bell about ”murder.” Because I am a woman and the only thing, I understood out of all of that. It is when he said you ”can commit murder with that gun can you.” And I know about guns, that was a smart move on his part because a woman like facts not gibberish, He has rung that bell before lunch even if it was objected to. And this is what he wanted them to go to lunch with. O’MAra is trying to confuse them. So they can forget was Guy said. It doesn’t matter if police do this Zimmerman is not a police.

  97. crazy1946 says:

    I am wondering if MOM/Ice Cream Man/Fogdoit intend to use inadequate defense as a method of appeal of his conviction?

  98. ay2z says:

    Is it back on? NBC isn’t airing it.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Lunch til 1:45.

    • crazy1946 says:

      I had to refresh the page and missed a few minutes of the restart!

    • ay2z says:

      Changed to wkmg to see if the feed was on, it was not, but I caught a report and legal comments on what happened with Cpt Carter this morning.

      Legal analyst was asked if the state would know how the defense would turn this, and the lawyer thought the state would know what the defense would do, wouldn’t miss it.

      (begs the question why the defense would want to object to this witness and evidence, if they could turn it to their own advantage, they weren’t likely going to fool anyone in the prosecution with a fake objection)

      This reporter brought in the Hannity clip where GZ says didn’t ever hear about SYG. Reporter says GZ big smile not just about the greeting from his ex-prof, but how ‘once again’ his defense team was able to turn a state’s witness for themselves.

      But no one thinks the state didn’t expect this. Was beautiful…. even the academically brilliant A student fogen, missed it, in his self-defense-self indulgence. 🙂

    • Tzar says:

      I jump here whenever the nbc site feed stops
      it’s from nbc as well but
      will still work when NBC site is not

  99. Fin Gomez:

    Siewert demonstrates for jury, pulls trigger of Zimmerman firearm. All jurors watch intently. B29 then looks over in area of Martin family.

  100. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Good morning. Would someone tell me what happened this morning regarding West and Daughter ruling regarding picture and how has everything been going this morning pretty/handsome please? I see GZ’s expression on his faced has changed to worried.

    • ay2z says:

      Nothing, this morning’s hearing was about admission of the documents (granted all but one page of non-related course lists) so that the witnesses that followed, and will follow soon on Skype, could be heard.

      The West issue shouldn’t take precidence and this judge is not going to let that happen– that would be rewarding West’s behaviour and benefit the defendant in delays and cause the jury to wait around.

  101. Tzar says:

    it’s over people!!!!

    • Sabrina B. says:

      So did she specifically say that even with a round in the chamber he has to rack it to fire it?

    • Rachael says:


    • Ms.X says:

      Did the prosecution say that? I must’ve missed it.

      • Tzar says:

        listen for yourself

        • FactsFirst says:

          My guns have a safety for safety purposes… just saying…

          “I aint no KILLER but don’t push me” (2Pac)

          The NRA picked the wrong spokes person…

        • I’m no specialist but from the way I understand how the gun functions you don’t rack it if you already have a round ready in the chamber.
          She probably racked the gun for safety as it would eject any possible round already in the chamber.

          • Tzar says:

            no gun expert either
            we had this discussion ad nauseum over at JQ, It came down to chamber check v racking
            I am going to rewatch Seiwert’s explanation of the mechanism again and elaborate further, later on.

            but the sound profile is identical

    • HappyinNM says:

      I don’t know if you all studied this gun. I know nothing about guns, so I found this diary very informative. Based on the length of time the screams went on, I believe the gun was out much earlier than Z claims. (sorry. I don’t know what fogen means). Please check out this diary:

    • MrSykes says:

      Wait so did they confirm that the gun could not be holstered in the “ready” position?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        that is what both the state and defense are contending, yes. no way to confirm unless you ask george, and we know what his word is worth.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        mrsykes asks

        Wait so did they confirm that the gun could not be holstered in the “ready” position?

        no, they confirmed that how GZ carried is a typical manner — full magazine and live round in chamber. yes, it holstered in this position as o’mara said by LE and many others who do carry.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Tzar, we have the exact same gun (minus GZ kooties). It is typically carried with a live round in the chamber. It is impossible to rack another round into the chamber if there is already a round there. The sound was him tapping his flashlight. The evidence (8 bullets — the capacity for this gun — are accounted for) is consistent with him not racking the gun.

    • Malisha says:

      I thought he had it out well before that final few seconds.

  102. Puck says:

    Yay, extra time for lunch, so I can run my errands without rushing. My life has been revolving around this trial.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      No kidding. I washed my hair during the first 10 minute break.
      Now, I can run to the store for food.
      Travel safely, Puck.

      • Puck says:

        At one point last week I needed to take a shower in the afternoon but didn’t want to miss anything, so I ran a bath instead and put my laptop on the toilet seat lid so I could watch while I bathed.

  103. Siewert excused.

    Lunch recess until 1:45 pm EDT.

    • Dee says:

      Professor how could they said on HLN that this helped the defense more then then the prosecution? I thought that guy left on an excellent note. When he said that the same force should be used not as a gun shot.

  104. LV487 says:

    O’Mara must enjoy getting his ass handed to him by the judge on an hourly basis…

  105. Tzar says:

    Sorry George, you just got sent to prison buddy!!!!

  106. groans says:

    Poor demo, Guy. She had to do a “racking” motion both times before she could “demonstrate” that all one has to do is pull the trigger.

    • Tzar says:

      no no no my dear
      that was great
      I hope Guy replays the demo in court
      when they break down his movements on the NEN
      the same racking sound is heard
      after he gets out of the truck

      • groans says:

        So the gun DOES require some sort of “racking” motion, even if it’s not actually considered racking? I’m confused!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          this gun, as it was loaded, only requred to be racked once to put a live cartridge into the chamber. then the magazine was removed to insert a fresh cartridge to replace the one moved up into the chamber.

          does that clear it up?

          • groans says:

            Yes. (But the witness did do a mini-rack-like-motion before pulling the trigger a second time. Maybe that’s because there were no cartridges and no magazine in it?)

            And, also, are we now back to thinking that’s the sound we hear on the NEN call? Because when I said that a few/several weeks ago, I got jumped on a bit here by folks saying that (1) it would have been too dark and clumsy to do it while on the phone; and (2) it would be stupid for him to carry an 8th cartridge with him and add it at the time we hear it in the NEN call.

            I hope Tzar is right, because that sound in the NEN call sounds exactly like what I’ve heard with a Kel-Tec PF9 online, and that’s been my theory.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i know people think they hear racking on the NEN call, i respectfully disagree due to experience with firearms.

            ultimately, i don’t think this issue is remotely important because at the time of the shot, the gun was ready to fire.

          • Dave says:

            Presumably he chambered a round, dropped the magazine, inserted another round into the magazine, and reinserted the magazine into the gun at home before putting the gun in its holster.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            dave — i agree. that would be a typical way to carry and it would start when you leave home armed.

        • Tzar says:

          it made the identical sound in court today

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i’m sorry and you i luvs ya tzar, but my knowledge of firearms makes that sound comparison unconvincing.

          • Tzar says:

            I will agree to disagree
            luvs you too

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i would just love for someone who does believe this to give a plausible theory on how this was accomplished considering lighting, weather, and other items the defendant would be juggling. it takes 2 hands to rack — where were all the other items (2 flashlights, cellphone, magazine, gun, stray bullet).

            if you can set aside (temporarily) your belief in the sound comparison, could you describe how the rest of the process would work?

          • Tzar says:

            Well I don’t think that’s what he did
            but for argument’s sake he had 84 seconds and access to lighting on RTC
            Are you familiar with the concept of chamber checking? and would that explain it all?meaning he had prepped everything before even calling and just did a chamber check when he reached RTC?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            again, possible — the court deputy clearly checked the chamber when the gun was unlocked for the jury.

            this is an action typically performed when someone hands you a gun — the first thing you do is check to see if it is loaded. i have never felt the need to check a gun i have personally loaded once having done so.

          • Tzar says:

            Was it his gun or Shelly’s gun?

          • fauxmccoy says:


            i have heard that it was shellie’s gun but have no verification of that. i don’t think we have any solid info as to how many guns they had. even if it was shellie’s gun, he would do his gun check before holstering and leaving the house.

          • cielo62 says:

            faux mccoy~ it was THE gun.


      • fauxmccoy says:

        but what about the actions that would have to follow — removing magazine, replacing another bullet for the one that was chambered and then replacing the magazine? you think he did that in the dark, in the rain, while in pursuit and on the phone? i have never bought that theory, it’s too awkward.

        • Tzar says:

          unless the magazine was changed by Smith

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i suppose that is possible – but getting far more into speculation (sound comparison, cop duplicity) than i am willing to venture. mind you, i don’t like ofc. smith at all.

            bottom line for me is that how gz carried is common, he was taught by his LE pal osterman and i just don’t see it.

          • Tzar says:

            I think this guy had his gun drawn like he was playing cops and robbers, (had conditions permitted I imagine he would be out there doing tumble rolls and sliding along houses with his back up against a wall like he is facing some armed criminal :))

            That sound is not a flashlight banging sound. the staccato is too fast and it matches the kel tec perfectly
            if I am right the state should have something to say about it, I am guessing that today is the day they would do it too, right on the heels of Seiwert.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i think the state mentioning something unnecessary about vague sounds on the NEN tape would be unwise – opens too much room for ‘reasonable doubt’.

            their presentation that the gun was already loaded with 8 bullets would be sufficient.

          • Tzar says:

            let us see

          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh — can we add some ‘starsky and hutch’ action of driving into neighbor’s trash cans during his vehicle pursuit? pretty please?

          • Tzar says:

            I can see it 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Tzar~ Like this?


          • Malisha says:

            THERE! I was thinking, “Gun was on the front seat in the patrol car while Smith drove Fogen in? Smith rolled something up in a jacket and put it into his trunk? Smith was first on the scene and Fogen expected him first? Smith and Fogen, Fogen and Smmith?”

            Remember, Timothy Smith and Fogen worked together at the time of the Sherman Ware hearings. They didn’t care about Ware; they cared about getting Lee into office and taking away Tuohy’s pension and power.

        • Dave says:

          He did all of this at home. There was no reason not to. If someone is going to carry a sidearm, he wants it ready to use.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            again, agreed. you and i are putting forth the same argument, that the gun was not racked during the NEN call.

        • MedicineBear says:

          I agree with you Fauxy. He could have chambered that 1st round anytime — minutes, days, months before he fired it. This gun is TYPICALLY carried with a round in the chamber — so it is ready to fire at any time without racking or taking off an external safety (no external safety on this gun).

    • whonoze says:

      That’s because there were no bullets in the gun, I think. Since GZ had 7 in the mag and 1 in the chamber, it’s IMPOSSIBLE that he could have racked the gun, if I understand the mechanism correctly.

      And even in the court demo there, you could hear that the gun racking noise is NOT the same as the sound on the NEN call. The NEN sounds are sharp — fast attack, immediate decay — like metal striking metal. The gun sounds have a longer duration — metal sliding or scraping against metal (as you would expect). The sound on the NEN call is GZ whacking his flashlight.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        whonoze says

        The sound on the NEN call is GZ whacking his flashlight.

        i agree – but i am not a sound technologist. i know many people even here believe they hear a gun racking in the NEN tape. all i can go on is my knowledge of firearms which dictates the nuttiness of exiting a vehicle with a gun, two flashlights and on a cell phone PLUS 1 additional stray bullet. i consider it nutty because no one who regularly handles firearms would attempt to rack a gun, remove magazine, insert spare bullet while juggling two flashlights and cellphone while speaking and in hot pursuit. it defies all logic.

        • groans says:

          No disclaimers necessary. I think we’ve learned that, at least for this trial, sound technologists are useless. 😉

          • fauxmccoy says:

            groans says

            I think we’ve learned that, at least for this trial, sound technologists are useless. 😉

          • fauxmccoy says:

            forgot my response

            AGREED! and i don’t want to hear any more west droning about it as long as i live.

      • Tzar says:

        I disagree completely
        I have no argument but what I hear
        the sounds are identical

        • diary73 says:

          According to the expert, with the extra bullet in the chamber, it was ready to fire… No racking required or possible. I see what you are saying, Whonoze.

          • Tzar says:

            I understand what he is saying as well and agree with the concept
            however I disagree that it sounds like flashlight banging or that it does not sound identical to the racking sound of the kel-tec

            my answer to the first part is a possible chamber check or shenanigans with the cartridge, remember this is the same pd brazen enough to submit doctored pics of Zimmerman so switching cartridges is nothing in comparison.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        There are two different sounds.

        One before he says “Zimmerman” and one after he says Zimmerman.

        I bet a juror or two might catch the one before and wonder if it sounds like a bullet being put into the chamber. That idea will just quietly rest, unspoken in her mind.

      • groans says:

        If the NEN sound sounds like metal on metal, then how could it be CAC’s whacking his flashlight? Is the flashlight metal? And if so, what other metal object would he whack it against?

        I would think people would naturally whack a flashlight against their thigh or against their other hand.

        That NEN sound has never sounded like whacking a flashlight, to me, and I’ve never bought that story.

      • MedicineBear says:

        He absolutely did not rack the gun — it is carried with a round in the chamber. The magazine holds 7 bullets + one in the chamber = the 8 bullets accounted for. It would be impossible for him to rack the gun with one already in the chamber. Evidence proves it didn’t happen, so it’s a non-issue in this case.

        You are correct — the tapping noises are him hitting the flashlight to get it to work. He and Serino both mention the flashlight [tapping] on the recorded audios (even a broken clock is right twice a day).

        The flashlight tapping, IMO, adds to the incriminating evidence (it’s on the NEN call at the very end when he claims he began heading back the same way he came — to his truck; why the need for a flashlight if he didn’t intend to keep following TM into the dark dog walk?).

  107. Sabrina B. says:

    Why is this going this way, That is not what he had,

  108. gwynne says:

    witness just showed the jury how quick and easy it is to shoot. mom seems to not like this, oh well.

  109. disappointed says:

    does the trigger pull really matter? he pulled the trigger shot in the heart no need to pull 2nd time.

    • rnewton32 says:

      Thank you! If the law was that specific the Zodiac Killer could have been acquitted. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to proove his intent. But then again he was never caught. (no pun intended)

    • lurker says:

      Seems to me like it shows that he meant to pull the trigger–not an accident.

      But I’m sure that’s not what O’Mara was intending.

      • MedicineBear says:

        Seems like OMar gets caught obsessively in the weeds and loses his audience’s attention because he doesn’t know the jury thinks in terms of the overall big picture and how all the pieces fit together.

    • Mojo says:

      Seriously. I don’t get MOM’s line of questions. What’s the significance of subsequent trigger pulls when Fat-ass only pulled the trigger once?

  110. 4.5 trigger pull is normal, not a heavy trigger pull.

  111. Tzar says:

    She just did the racking sound
    I love it

  112. Boyd says:

    I agree Newton, we’re finally here. Trayvon and Fogen were not in the position the defense claims

    • Ms.X says:

      When did you hear the prosecution say that? I must’ve missed it.

      • Boyd says:

        Bullet entry should be when we’re actually there
        Prosecution said it was at a 0% angle. Pressed against him.

        That’s my recollection I also believe they were standing when the shot was fired or George was on top.

  113. disappointed says:

    Mr Guy brilliant!

  114. She only examined the clothing for distance determination. She did not examine the entry wound.

  115. MrSykes says:

    Yeah O’mara, reel ’em in. Don’t forget that Fogen pulled the bottom of Trayvon’s hoodie with his left hand in order to get a clear shot, which would create the flat surface necessary to be consistent with the shot’s residue.

  116. rnewton32 says:

    ok, I see the defense is trying to say that because the gun was not shoved into Trayvon’s chest, this somehow “reduces” Fogen’s intent to kill him. But to me that just says Trayvon was not right on top of him like Fogen claims. He was trying to get away. I hope this gets put out there as a viable possibility.

  117. gwynne says:

    mom is trying to confuse her, and say fogun just “touched” the sweatshirt…she keeps saying lightly touching or pressed in the effects the same.

  118. Boyd says:

    O’Mara is trying to confuse the jury. She testifying that it was a contact shot. Where’s he going with the trigger pull?
    The defense contends it was not a contact shot, O’Mara is now trying to confuse the Jury, he’s a gun shot expert go figure.

    Fogen knew he shot him, and knew he likely killed him.

  119. Rachael says:

    He’s not getting very far with her is he.

  120. chi1224 says:

    Same effects O’Mara… now sit down!

  121. elle says:

    What is he doing mentioning the police and the military over and over? What could that possibly gain for them? I have no idea what that angle is?

  122. gbrbsb says:

    And “dale que dale” with the “safety” features !

  123. fauxmccoy says:

    as i have been maintaining — the defendant’s manner of carrying is typical. just not what i would do, not liking semi-autos

  124. chi1224 says:

    I’m feeling glad right now that this is an all woman jury, women don’t seem to be as gun friendly as men, imo. The fact that Fogen walked around armed all the time is just nutty, imo.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I can’t imagine what it must be like in the US going to a Target with your kids to do some shopping, and some nut like GZ is also there fully loaded up and ready to fire!

      • chi1224 says:

        Yeah it’s pretty sick isn’t it? Gun control is a very hot topic in this country right now. People screaming about their 2nd amendment right… meanwhile back then guns were single shot muskets, now we have assault weapons capable of mass murder in a matter of seconds.

        • Cercando Luce says:

          And anyone who hasn’t mass-murdered yet can easily get into position to do so. Like Dirty Osterman said he feels, every non-convicted felon should have a gun.

          The firearms expert from FDLE explained that each shot generates a cloud of lead vapor and particles. So the shooters inhale it, it affects their brains, and that’s what we get in the US of A. It affects Florida’s legislators and all the SYG states.

      • Mary says:

        it’s not like that everywhere. it is like that in florida though. i live in california, and i’ve never even seen a gun.

        • gbrbsb says:

          I should have specified, I think it is only a few states and I have spent time in Washington, and visited NY, Boston, Atlantic City and Philadelphia and they seemed pretty much the same as here.

  125. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    I love how MO’M is taking every effort to aline GZ with law enforcement. I thought they wanted to get away from that this morning.

    • My Forehead Tho says:


      He wants Fogen compared to law enforcement when it’s beneficial to the defense but doesn’t when it’s not. Kind of like when he requested Fogen take the stand but only if he wasn’t cross examined.

      • PerfectlyImperfect says:

        Oic. Thank you for your astute observation. I totally forgot about that ploy with George Zimmerman testifying without cross examination.

  126. gwynne says:

    mom-did the gun perform properly???what a dispicable sounding question.

  127. My Forehead Tho says:

    O’Mara is trying his hardest to make her say Fogens gun was safe, or was one of the safest, to carry loaded and ready to fire. She won’t

  128. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    I’m convinced West was supposed to cross examine this witness.

  129. KittySP says:

    GZ should have taken some forensic/ballistic courses…

  130. Sabrina B. says:

    He was not law enforcement.

  131. Unabogie says:

    O’Mara is trying to obfuscate. The issue is not whether or not the extra cartridge was safe. It is that putting a cartridge into the chamber means you’re getting it ready to fire on a hair trigger, no pun intended.


  132. FactsFirst says:

    is O’Mara tring to DEFEND fogen or convict him? I’m confused..

  133. Rachael says:

    Without someone deciding – forethought?

  134. crazy1946 says:

    MOM is actually proving with this line of questioning that the Fogdoit intentionally pulled the trigger intending to kill Trayvon! Stupid move. Missed the chance to suggest it was not his intent to kill…

    • chi1224 says:

      I was thinking the same thing….. then he talks about law enforcement carrying their guns in the same position, Fogen was NOT law enforcement!!

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Same conversations going on at my house.
        (My husband works from home, and the last few days he’s spent quite a bit of time in the LR with me.)

  135. Rachael says:


  136. disappointed says:

    does the safety really matter? He pulled the trigger so he basically turned off his safety.

    • lurker says:

      They are trying to establish that the chambering of the bullet did not indicate any particular intent to shoot the gun. Just the way it was carried.

  137. John Guy should have asked her about the kick from that gun and someone needs to compare the gun sight with the two punctate wounds on the tip of the defendant’s nose.

    Come on guys. Wake up.

    • Unabogie says:

      Professor, as I wrote yesterday, I don’t think the state is going to contest that Trayvon punched him. I think they are looking to create a narrative that’s extremely plausible, that doesn’t paint Trayvon as a saint, but when seen in contrast to Zimmerman’s may lies is seen as the “truth”. If they throw out lots of “what ifs” then they stoop to the defense’s level and risk being seen as two peas in a pod.

      Am I way off?

      • Malisha says:

        It wouldn’t hurt to show that the kickback from the gun was very powerful, no matter what possible punches were thrown. How would it hurt? Mistake. “Isn’t it possible that this fish is better than all THEIR possible fish?”

    • Ms.X says:

      For them to ask that, they would have to believe that Trayvon did not attack gz. They, like all the tv journalists, believe that Trayvon DID attack and beat up gz, even though there is no dna/forensic evidence to support it. I can’t believe that they haven’t asked themselves, “How did this happen? How could it be that Trayvon beat up a grown man with martial arts training and got no blood or other dna evidence on him? This is pathetic to me. I don’t think they’re trying to win. This is a show to “keep the blacks from rioting.”

    • crazy1946 says:

      She could not testify to that due to it not being in her field of expertise, or am I incorrect?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I can’t believe they didn’t do that.

    • lurker says:

      They also did not cover the direction in which the shell is expelled–which is why even lefties use this gun rightie. Also helps to establish the location of the shooting relative to where the shell was found.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      …and asked about the meaning of stellate tearing. I hope the ME or someone will testify as to holes not aligning with gun sot wound.

    • diary73 says:

      So, do I understand this correctly: Since both garments were pressed together when the shot was fired, does this debunk O’Mara’s claim of Trayvon leaning over GZ with a hanging hoodie? The under sweatshirt was not loose.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I would think they would want to wait with presenting “What else could have caused facial injury” until AFTER they present the ME’s forensic evidence (e.g. no GZ blood or DNA on TM’s hands, no offensive bruising on TM’s knuckles, TM had no hard object to use as a self-defense weapon, injuries not consistent with sidewalk injury, etc.) that shows why it’s not likely that GZ’s injuries were consistent with lack of alien DNA on TM’s hands or cuffs.

      IMO, they should hear the forensic evidence from the ME about the pristine condition of TM’s hands (and the unused potential defensive weapon in his hoodie pocket — the full can of tea).

      That, of course, sets up the subliminal question: “Well, if there’s no evidence that Trayvon touched him, what did?”.

      THEN they could have a gun-expert witness testify about the Kel Tek PF-9 recoil and rearward shell casing ejection that could easily account for facial, nose, and head damage (especially when fired one-handed, close to face — which ME will have in “intermediate range” testimony). I would also mention that although the bushes in the area aren’t really suitable for hiding behind, the sharp bare branches of the trees in the immediate vicinity could easily cause head and facial lacerations.

      Are there any potential witnesses who could testify about the gun to be called AFTER the ME? Could FDLE?

  138. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    Bahaha…the trigger pull is not a safety feature!

  139. Unabogie says:

    So if he made a contact shot, then the idea that he didn’t know he’d shot this kid directly into the chest is a complete lie. Then he left the corpse on the ground, holstered his gun and talked about ammo, got onto the phone, and THEN had the temerity to fake surprise to the police. “HE DIED? ”

    This man is a freaking sociopath.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      He also stressed that he moved his hand to make sure he did not get himself. He knew he shot him in the chest and that that ceased any action from Trayvon, so he had to know he was dead.

    • gwynne says:

      it is sickening. and i think that Trayvon must have known he was about to be murdered-he would have been able to feel fogun’s gun shoved into his chest.

  140. Tzar says:

    Careful Omara, This lady is no dummy!!

  141. The inner shirt was in contact with the outer sweatshirt when the shot was fired.

    • SearchingMind says:

      An irrefutable point the Professor has made clear months ago. Science will bury GZ. I am satisfied the way things stand right now (except that Prosecutors have not used the “objection instrument” as much as they could have)

  142. gwynne says:

    i hope mom isn’t ugly about this. i feel so bad for the parents.

  143. rnewton32 says:

    Just a thought. The defense says that the can weighed down the hoodie which would explain why the holes did not line up with the chest wound. But if the can was in the hoodie, weighing only this garment down, wouldn’t the sweatshirt hole not line up with the hoodie? She says the holes in both the garments line up. So what the defense claims doesn’t make sense. Please give me your thoughts. Thanks.

    • lurker says:

      Good point.

    • PerfectlyImperfect says:

      Exactly. The defense’s opening statement is slowly disproved each witness at a time. Going into the 4th of July holiday, the jury will be able to consider all of the salient points provided to them from Monday and today. The prosecution will have a fabulous week.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yup – i brought that up in west’s disastrous opening statement

  144. Sabrina B. says:

    Inner being in direct contact. If ice tea was in the outer sweatshirt and pulled that down, the inner sweatshirt could not have been in direct contact.

  145. lurker says:

    OK–West is back on the bench.

  146. Two sides to a story says:

    Fogen had to know he shot Trayvon since it was a contact shot. What a horrible lie.

  147. disappointed says:

    how sad for the parents.

  148. Contact shot to the hooded sweatshirt.

    Bullet holes line-up.

    Both holes exhibited tearing

    • uhoh says:

      tearing implies the shirts were at an angle to the muzzle of the gun, like being pulled away from the victim on one side by the shooter’s hand?

  149. fauxmccoy says:

    oh mother of good – that inner shirt is hard to see

  150. gwynne says:

    contact shot-gun was up against the sweatshirt when it was fired.

  151. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    There is diary!!!!

  152. DruDo says:

    OMG…Trayvon’s poor parents!

  153. diary73 says:

    Ok. They just put the exhibit higher!!!!!!

  154. Sabrina B. says:

    What is the significance of the cutting to back of shirt?

  155. Tzar says:

    Seeing his affects is so sad 😦

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      yep it’s heartbreaking

    • Deborah Moore says:

      It’s even harder to see those items in A Box.
      This must be so hard for the Parents.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Sabrina and Tracy have been through so much.

        All morning these exhibits of Trayvon’s clothing have been sitting right in front of them.

      • Tzar says:

        I am not yet a parent but I imagine they want to hug even the sweaters their boy wore his last night alive

        • Deborah Moore says:

          You’re really good at making me tear up, Tzar.

          • Tzar says:

            Seeing the affects just reminds me of the fragility of life, the fragility of our hopes, of those we love. That someone’s “things” can vividly tease us with their memories but with seeming malice fail to deliver them into our arms, is melancholic, ironic and unbearable. That this kid was killed for no good reason is a calamity of existential proportion, because if any kid should be killed for no good reason, it is a calamity.

          • cielo62 says:

            Tzar~ at heart you are a poet. Beautiful.


          • Two sides to a story says:

            Good thoughts, Tzar.

        • breelee says:

          We think alike. I was thinking how bad I’d want to smell my baby boys last clothing, and cry a bucket of tears into them. I hate that their sitting right there within reach of Tracy and Sabrina. They are FORCED to see them over and over.

  156. lurker says:

    Does anyone know anything about guns, etc.

    I keep wondering about those punctate abrasions on the side front of Zim’s face. Is there any flying anything from the firing that would leave such a mark pattern?

    Clearly not from any head-banging, unless rolled to side, nearly front. Maybe a scrape from tree bark, etc. But, I wonder also about anything from the gun.

    • MedicineBear says:

      This first link has a slow motion video of the backward ejection of the shell casing. Notice that the shooter is holding the gun with a two-handed (more stabilizing) grip — that’s because this gun is extremely light and has a powerful kickback (recoil). The second link is an 8-second video showing the powerful kickback with the less-stabilizing one-hand grip.


      The gun kickback could easily have been what “punched him in the nose.”

      The ejecting shell casing could have also hit him in the face, nose, and/or head.

    • riisey007 says:

      pistol whipped?

  157. KittySP says:

    Anyone else notice how when prof witness testify…that is damaging to defense, GZs mouth gets very tight.

  158. Two sides to a story says:

    Fogen doesn’t like being bested by women.

  159. Two sides to a story says:

    Love all these strong women involved in the case.

  160. jodiwankanobi says:

    setting up for “how the fuck could he see that little thing tucked into the defendants pants”….

  161. trigger pull between 4.5 and 4.75 lbs.

  162. ZCBest says:

    Fully loaded with one in the chamber at time of discharge! Jigga what, Jigga who!? Sorry my inner rap star emerges when I am excited. Does that make me a thug?

  163. DruDo says:

    I believe I saw Angela Corey in the courtroom.

  164. jodiwankanobi says:

    sweet Jesus i feel nervous just watching them have that damn gun in the court room…thank God guns are a rarity in my country…..

  165. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    GZ is breathing pretty quickly. Does anyone else also notice this?

  166. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    click clack click

  167. Rachael says:

    Another woman!! Yay!!!!

  168. disappointed says:

    Oh I do not like guns in the courtroom. especially with a trigger happy idiot 10 feet away.

  169. silk says:

    the state needs to object more , i mean was it establish that trayvon was on top when the shot went off . i mean they let the defense lie about alot about evidence and make up unbeleavable and objective stories .

  170. Amy Siewert is the next witness. She is the lab person who examined the sweatshirts — Firearms section.

  171. chi1224 says:

    firearms analyst is up

  172. disappointed says:

    crime lab. Firearms.

  173. gbrbsb says:

    Aha… So GZ wanted to be a “prosecutor”, another way of pursuing criminals… indeed, the next best thing after you’ve been rejected as a policeman !

    • disappointed says:

      and the bar still would have rejected him for his credit. That is what took Jose Baez so long to pass bar.

  174. groans says:

    I’m a late joiner today. Saw fiasco with Skype callers, but then didn’t see any direct exam.

    Was Pleasants a defense witness? Did Mantei do any direct?

  175. Sabrina B. says:

    So more than just a cop but, a prosecutor. Seems he would have paid particular attention to that class.

  176. silk says:

    i mean zimmerman lied on the interview with sean hannity . so thats kinda major .

  177. Defendant wanted to become a prosecutor.

  178. disappointed says:

    he is all over the place with his goals. and yet he is a big fat zero

  179. chi1224 says:

    Fogen wanted to be a prosecutor….. how ironic

  180. Unabogie says:

    Sigh. At least this cross will be short. This is painful to watch.

    WTF, people? This is murder trial.

  181. Sabrina B. says:

    I can’t believe they are arguing he may have been a bad student.

  182. chi1224 says:

    I think the prosecution has proved their point, and can safely just move on….. more powerful stuff to get on with imo

  183. gwynne says:

    these were required reading…mr mantei, hope you pick up on this

  184. chi1224 says:

    I can’t follow the skype testimony… keeps cutting out.

  185. Trained Observer says:

    We’ve had some fun this morn, admiring the JAG lawyer/prof. Yet the curious question remains:

    Why did Fogen do so well in this particular class, when he flunked others related to his major … or got Cs and Ds?

  186. What are the penalties for disrupting a trial?

    • groans says:

      My question, too.

      Usually they kick them out of the courtroom (which was “virtually” done here). But I wonder if they’re usually charged with anything, and whether they might be in this case (three guesses).

      This courtroom doesn’t seem equipped/ready for remote testimony just yet.

  187. crazy1946 says:

    Did anyone else notice how funny that MOM found this problem? He was laughing as it was happening, any bets that he knew it would happen?

  188. Unabogie says:

    Can’t really hear his answers.

  189. disappointed says:

    mock crime scene?

  190. Rachael says:

    Could we get a nice fresh spot to start when they come back? This one is getting very long.

  191. gbrbsb says:

    MOM is talking… I missed the direct? Can anyone resume quickly what was the direct about ?

    • groans says:

      WAS there a direct exam? Was it just the couple of questions before they switched phones?

      • gbrbsb says:

        Probably, it doesn’t seem to have been much anyway, except we now know that when GZ was rejected for pursuing criminals as a policeman he decided he would have to take the next best route, i.e. pursuing them as a lawyer… talk about a one track mind!

  192. disappointed says:

    wow this is kind of crazy.

  193. Unabogie says:

    Only your Skype contacts can call you. So people were spamming him when they saw him on TV?


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      former online students?

    • Sophia33 says:

      No I have been spammed by called from skype. It’s something about the settings. My younger classmates had to help me out since my Skype was going off in class.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yeah, I’m pretty sure other people besides your contacts can grab your id and call.

  194. riisey007 says:

    I used skype when my kids were stationed in South Korea, why is it that all this interruption is occurring. He should have made a separate account from his personal one. This is ridiculous and unprofessional. Hit the block on that thing geez. Turn the contacts off.

  195. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    It looks as if some other callers are calling that same number.

  196. PerfectlyImperfect says:


  197. whonoze says:

    Zidiots are jamming his Skype number. Unreal.

  198. Unabogie says:

    This is unreal. What the hell is going on here?

  199. crazy1946 says:

    I would suggest the Tree sewer is in action!

  200. willisnewton says:

    these are treepers i bet, calling the number to disrupt the testimony

  201. Sabrina B. says:


  202. gbrbsb says:

    qweek qweek !!!!

  203. willisnewton says:

    get a popup blocker, dude. Or stop buying viagra online.

  204. fauxmccoy says:

    oh, the hazards of skype — someone else keeps trying to call. they need to resolve this.

  205. Unabogie says:

    Who is this idiot who keeps skype calling him?

  206. willisnewton says:

    Professor Pleasance gets a sales call…

  207. Deborah Moore says:

    Is using Skype for testimony usual, rare, unusual.
    Fred, this is another aspect of how new technology affects trials, right? Along with tweets, FB?

  208. Professor Scott Pleasants.

    Teaches at Seminole State College.

    Teaches Criminal Investigation.

    Zimmerman was his student in the summer 2011.

    On-line class.

  209. gwynne says:

    witness teaches criminal investigation course.

  210. Leslie says:

    Hi.. I have been following this wonderful blog for the last year and never commented. I feel the need to now, to thank the professor and you for being here and allowing such a forum. I am team Trayvon and was so happy when Dr. Raou tore omara a new one yesterday. I am not a lawyer, but have a deep interestin and am working on a biology degree, forensic science, political science. Let’s get this pig!

  211. Problem appears to resolved.

  212. HereslookingatYou says:

    I would guess whatever the state wants to hammer home they will do in closing arguments

  213. Did anyone see Zimmerman laugh during Alexis Carter’s testimony about self defense?

  214. We are back in session with a Skype connection problem.

  215. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    West met his match and more with our JAG lawyer.

    Can you imagine O’Mara, with his limp-hand gestures, trying to question the witness?

  216. SearchingMind says:

    If Bill Schaeffer was not consciously playing to a specific audience, he is really a fool! I don’t see how Capt. Carter helped the defense: (a) GZ was the agressor, (b) attempting to detain Trayvon is a crime, (c) GZ’s injuries “were very insignifican”, (d) The shooting occured while the parties were on the grass, (e) GZ was armed, (f) When the shot was fired, Trayvon was not on top of GZ, (g)Trayvon has the right of self-defense, etc.

    • willisnewton says:

      Stop watching those clowns on tv. The more television you watch, the less facts you actually know about the case. Isn’t that clear to anyone who reads this blog?

      • SearchingMind says:

        I was replying to someone’s post upthread.

        • willisnewton says:

          whoops. in that case, tell them! lol.

          I’m just disgusted by the superficiality of the majority of the media reports on the trial. It’s a case that is going to turn on some fairly specific testimony and evidence and even deductive reasoning. ANd a case where the State has every reason to shield it’s ultimate strategy, for a year in advance of trial while thee defense has been pissing in the jury pool the whole time.

          Yet the media only looks an inch deep into the surface of a deep well of information, and reports on that.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        All these years I wondered why it is called the “boob tube” and now I know.

    • ada4750 says:

      I agree from a to g except f. It is not provent yet isn’t?

      • SearchingMind says:


        The trajectory/path of the bullet. This Trajectory irrefutably rules out Trayvon on top of GZ in MMA style in a straddle position, with Trayvon’s both knees right inches away from GZ’s armpits. The ME will confirm this. This evidence will ultimately bury GZ.

    • RobertSF says:

      I’m definitely not pro-defense here, but I caution against the echo chamber effect and clinging to things that just aren’t so.

      We “know” GZ was the aggressor, but the state hasn’t shown any evidence of that, nor has it outlined a narrative to counter the defense’s. So far, for example, no evidence that suggests both were standing when GZ shot TM has been introduced. Also for example, no timeline that absorbs all the time (almost 4 minutes) and incorporates Rachel Jeantel’s testimony that TM was outside his father’s girlfriend’s condo has been introduced either.

      While I agree that GZ’s injuries are insignificant, their significance is that they prove he is lying about the sucker punch an falling and getting hit on the concrete. Unfortunately, the state hasn’t gone in that direction, apparently instead focusing only on how superficial the injuries are, while the defense has mentioned that no injuries at all are needed to successfully claim self-defense.

      I’m not going to start posting rant after rant, but I am very worried, especially after hearing the defense only had eight more witnesses to go as of the start of today.

      • SearchingMind says:

        1. Dee Dee

        2. The defense is not going to dictate for the State how and when is should provide any particular evidence. The prosecution is going to execute this trial in accordance with its own plan and strategy. This is not a popularity contest. The defense can rant all it wants and try to get “ahead”, but I am not surprised the prosecution ain’t taking the bait.

      • cielo62 says:

        Robert~ Ballistics will clear the body placement issue of standing vs on one’s back. Also, Rachel already testified for over 5 hours that Zimmerman physically assaulted Trayvon first, PLUS from gzs mouth we know gz followed Martin until they met on the dog walk. NO WAY was gz walking towards his car. BUT putting all of this together WILL happen with the final witnesses  and closing. Don’t worry.


      • willisnewton says:

        I know what you are saying and I agree that the state has not YET begun to tie elements together.

        I suspect that TC Osteen or another FDLE investigator is going to be put on the stand to accomplish some of that, like the gumshoe in a cheap detective novel who gathers the butler and the daddy and the cook etc and says, “now that we are all together, let me explain what these clues all mean.” And proceeds to lay it all out in a narrative fashion, or whatever version of that can be done on direct examination.

        Then BDLR will do it again on closing argument.

        Or else I’m al wet and BDLR is blowing it. But the fact that he showed the clubhouse video is significant. It’s speaking directly to the “false narrative from the start” aspect and little else. He’s gonna make that argument strongly at some point.

        • Malisha says:

          I expect the state’s rebuttal to be like the A-Bomb. It seems to me to be a good plan. We set up the foundation for a structure that exists in reality; then we let them go up there and build, over it, a castle in the air for their castle doctrine to live in; then we bomb their airy-fairy castle and what remains? Our structure that exists in reality. Then we take a bow at closing argument. Then they scream “unfair” for ten years until the appeals are all finished. Then they file federal habeas corpus screaming “unconstitutional.” By then Fogen will understand God’s plan.

  217. crazy1946 says:

    Ok, fresh pot of coffee made. If this case goes as long as some of the outside commentators have indicated I have a few problems, my well will go dry making coffee, my septic will be full from disposing of said coffee, and I will be broke from buying coffee! Oh woe is me?

    • texad says:

      @ Sophia33

      Luv me some Teena Marie. Hope she has given Trayvon a private concert by now. She’s a perfect example of why color of skin does not matter. Having a good heart that’s open to love is all that should matter. Don’t get me started.

  218. RobertSF says:

    The superficiality itself of Zimmerman’s injuries doesn’t argue against self-defense. As they’ve been pointing out, you don’t need to be injured at all to successfully claim self-defense.

    What’s significant about Zimmerman’s injuries is that they don’t match his narrative. In other words, it’s not that two little cuts to the scalp are not enough to resort to deadly force, but rather, it’s that two little cuts to the scalp don’t support the claim of repeated impacts against the concrete. And if things didn’t happen the way Zimmerman claims they happened, then they probably happened in a way that does not legitimize deadly force in self-defense.

    My concern is that, so far, I haven’t seen the state hammer on that point. It has presented no theory that, through circumstantial evidence, turns that “probably” into a “definitely” for the jury, and now I’m hearing that the state may rest its case today, or at most (if Don West goes on one of his windy marathons) tomorrow.

    • willisnewton says:

      I don’t think the state will rest that soon. But I do agree that the point of the minor, inconsequential injuries is not about whther he feared for his life or not – it’s about whether he lied about how he got them, AND whether a REASONABLE person would shoot somebody over a 1 cm laceration.

      But mostly the former, as you said so well.

      To me the proof of lies needs to come strongly with the start of the two meeting – where they met, and how they moved from clubhouse vicinity to cut thru vicinity. These lies are 100% provable – the “doubling back/ circling the car” lie is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording and demonstrates that GZ went into his false narrative lying even before he gets to the physical altercation. Anyone who backs up to lie about how a “fight” (there was no fight, just a an illegal detention of an unarmed teen by an armed killer) started has something to hide – his guilt.

  219. bettykath says:

    What happened to fogen’s homework assignments? Capt. said he gave them but I expected them to be read. Did Mantei forget them? Are they in? Will they be read?

    • gwynne says:

      any chance they will be part of the next witnesses testimony?

    • willisnewton says:

      they may not have been on point here. The homework was probably stuff by rote covered in the textbook. Florida law and specifics about self-defense were things he says he covered in class as a way to make the class more “real world” for the students.

      This guy just handed the prosecution a 40 inch combo pizza. Don’t go asking for the red pepper just yet.

    • RobertSF says:

      I’m also a little skeptical that the textbook contained no reference to “Stand Your Ground.” Of course the textbook would not be so specific that it covered only Florida law, but it would cover the law as it generally stood across the country, with notes and commentary about the differences in various states.

      For example, if the textbook included a chapter or section on statutory rape, it would certainly have to contain a chart comparing the states because the laws vary so much on this. Likewise, I would imagine it contained a chart or table of states that did and did not allow SYG defense. And the term is not particular to Florida but is used across the board, just like “castle doctrine,” so I’m sure the term “stand your ground” would be in any criminology college textbook that covered self-defense.

  220. crazy1946 says:

    One question that would have been good to have asked the witness would have been: When, other than today since the course ended have you spoken to the defendant? I don’t know why, but I think the Fogdoit talked to this man not long after the murder…. I might be wrong but…..

    • willisnewton says:

      As a lawyer, you don’t ask a question you don’t know the answer to.

      And as Abbie Hoffman once said,” in a revolution, as in pool hustling, only use as much force as is necessary.”

      Mantai ended his time with this witness well.

  221. willisnewton says:

    I’ve always felt that GZ’s false narrative was coached. TOday, we met the coach.

    The verbal death threat to me is the obvious tip-off that his story in the missing minutes is a lie. What sort of idiot would see that his opponent is armed, and that his hands and arms are free to move, give a verbal death threat, and THEN AND ONLY THEN reach for the weapon in someone else’s holster?

    I can’t imagine a B-Wester tv villain trying that on a poorly scripted hollywood movie, much less this happening in real life.

    many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened is impossible in many places and ludicrously unlikely in others.

    What George did, he blamed on the kid. Doubled back. Sought out the confrontation. And possibly, the verbal death threat as well.

    • LeaNder says:

      willis, I fear that ultimately they may well decide that there still is a reasonable doubt. Why didn’t Manthei asked the prof at the time, if he used the term Stand Your Ground. He left to defense the little opening to slip through, Fogen did not know that it was called like that. Since he only knew the regulations about it. And these codes or regulations ultimately gave him the conviction he should not and could not be prosecuted. Why didn’t he ask that question? Because he knew he never talked about the term but only talked about Self Defense? This witness ultimately was good for the defense.

      • LeaNder says:

        Mantei. Sorry.

      • willisnewton says:

        I feel like the substance of what’s important is not some weasel definition of “Were the words SYG used?” but “does the defendant have a very clear picture of how to construct the elements of a successful self-defense narrative?”

        The other component, is, WOULD the defendant construct a FALSE narrative, and HAS the defendant constructed a false narrative, at least in part that is easily proven (re: how the two traveled). These last two are to be proven elsewhere. But the first leg of this tripod is shown here with the course instructor.

        • LeaNder says:

          Willis, I am slightly fearful again. Remember it’s not us but the jury.

          I wish we had seen more serious efforts to show holes in Fogen’s narrative.

          E.g. the clubhouse videos. Concerning O’Mara’s objection. Why not add or detract 5 minutes each way. Did anyone ever park there? Tchoubi Whonoze, Amsterdam would know.

          Or let’s take one of my obsessions why not call officer Mead, who was the first on the scene and met with Fogen there. Notice on this event he called back to correct the former address. And the officers had to be redirected. That was pretty recently.

          This is just from the top of my head.

          They could have done to Fogen and his story in return what defense did to Rachel, so why did they often not do it and let them far too easily allow them to be scared off?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      today we met the coach, yesterday the bad script writer m osterman

      • type1juve says:

        I’m afraid you’re right, and the coach seemed proud of his student to me. IMBW but…

      • lurker says:

        I don’t think it is reasonable to call Carter a coach. More like an unwitting participant before the fact.

        He may have liked GZ as a student. That doesn’t mean that he is willing to sacrifice his law career to help the guy get off.

        He provided the info, it was up to students to determine if they used it for good or ill.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          fair enough

        • riisey007 says:

          True!!! I feel that GZ was listening closely but even so if prosecution after defense finished writing the book of “WEST” , had just asked Carter to clarify Zimmermans understanding of SYG so that there is no questioning that GZ could easily take what he learned and apply it to his situation thus coming up with all the different stories until they fit.

        • willisnewton says:

          also agree. Way back last year however it was obvious GZ’s story was a carefully crafted work of fiction. I had suspected that Osterman had helped him craft it ON THE NIGHT, while GZ was in SPD custody. Now we see it was more likley that GZ knew what to say from being in a class where the elements were discussed at length.

          I didnt mean to infer that Carter coached GZ after the fact. GZ didn’t need coaching after the fact, we now see.

  222. MedicineBear says:

    Anyone know where I can see yesterday’s sessions? Trent doesn’t seem to have Day 7 of the trial up on You Tube.

  223. RastaGirl says:

    Zimmerman knows the law

  224. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Recess…are you here, diary?

  225. jodiwankanobi says:

    ummm that awkward moment when you see your user name and realise it has the word WANK front and centre…..

    it’s suppose to be jodi wan kanobi……no wanking involved

  226. Women don’t like lies…Trial = Jury of 6 women…1 big lie…on video…can’t be good for fogen…ijs

    • Sophia33 says:

      Don’t forget about Trayvon Martin’s arms not being spread out.

      and Don’t forget that Rachel shows he continued to follow Trayvon Martin.

      So 3 BIG Lies.

      • willisnewton says:

        Don’t forget that GZ NEVER EVER EVER told the SPD that Trayvon ran away (from his moving car.) he only spoke to the issue when prompted, and were it not for the NEN call recording and his spontaneous statement, no would would ever have been the wiser.

        He also lied to Hanity and the nation about this, still clinging to his false narrative.

        The doubling back to circle the car is impossible to reconcile with the timing of his NEN call, and is of course another lie, told to obfuscate, omit and obscure the true course of events, where he doubled back his car, parked facing the mail kiosk and then MOVED his car after Trayvon when the teen walked past, causing the teen to fear for his own safetly and then run off the roadway into the dog walk where GZ pursued him on foot.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Agree. He’s told so many BIG lies, let alone the little ones that it is hard to keep up with them

    • ay2z says:

      What women do or don’t like, for me, I don’t like someone presuming something about me that is a general assumption.

      Osterman’s litle act as he turned to jurors, “I’m sorry, I don’t like to use those bad words in front of [quote] ladies.”

      Condescending to women. This is a court of law, this is evidence that his own friend used in his ‘written statement’, and used in his own statement to female investigator, Doris Singleton. And yet Osterman is apologizing for what his best ever friend, said the guy said to him.

      (Boy was Osterman sweating too, red faced, nervous smile, (or anxious or excited, happy to be there for his friend), for a police officer/LE officer, he sure was sweating and wiping a lot on the stand.)

      One other degrading point out of MOM’s mouth this morning, but not before the jury, was the note of the text book author as a male name, then ‘guess his wife was the co-author’ comment. Not the co-author’s name, but ‘his wife’. A posession, a secondary part of the author who got her name on the book too.

      Maybe she wrote one chapter less than ‘her’ husband (if that’s what he was) or maybe she had a name with a higher ranking letter of the alphabet than he did, for a given name.

      Attitudes of that defense team, Judge Nelson would not miss this, as a woman, she would know the poke in her general category of person, too.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        oh i loved this….”i don’t want to use bad language in front of the laaaadies”……BDLR…”Motherfucker….he said motherfucker”…woot woot cut to the chase motherfucker!!!

  227. RobertSF says:

    Bill Schaeffer is saying that Capt. Carter was a devastating witness for the prosecution because, when the defendant was pointed out to him, he said in a warm voice, “Hi, George, how ya doing?” :/

    • MichelleO says:


    • willisnewton says:

      and George answered, “Look’s like it’s gGod’s Plan that I’m screwed, bigtime and six ways to sunday, pal.” In his head.

    • Rachael says:

      Not at all devastating to the prosecution. It proves beyond any doubt whatsoever of this one of many GZ lies.

      • KittySP says:

        And that the force he used against Trayvon wasn’t ‘reasonably’ warranted, considering those ‘minor, insignificant’, scrapes, and bumps.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I’m so glad I stopped watching that feed. Are you serious? “Hi George, How ya doing?”

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        “how ya doin”?
        ” about 20 to 25 thanks for asking”

      • lurker says:

        Certainly established that the prof remembered George. And as one of the better students, he certainly learned some things about SYG and self defense.

      • riisey007 says:

        Yes, Mr Carter is a military man it was a sign of respect but could be interpreted as him really liking George but at the same time I don’t see him not telling the truth. Carter was not used efficiently by prosecution and defense ran a muck once again by getting Carter to say SYG is a nickname and that they didn’t put that name to their covering of SYG law. I do believe Carter was willing to answer prosecutions answers as honest and willfully as possible had he been asked different questions and more direct. His body language looked really good and he seemed to be a people person so I can’t dislike him, the man was an open book. It seemed really odd that they basically made him an expert.

    • ay2z says:

      I am so disappointed in Schaeffer, he claimed (watched one of his videos last night from yesterday) that he knows all the closing arguments, and how devastating that is because he knows exactly what the state is doing.

      Schaeffer is caught in an assumption that this is only about the defendant. This is beautifully crafted to pre-empt Trayvon’s reasons for fear when ‘grabbed, in the dark, outside’.

      Schaeffer is of course, covering himself because he thinks the case will go one way, and he needs to be able to be on the winning side this time (first time he was wrong so he’s being cautious after his predictions in the Casey Anthony case, plus he is a local defense collegue of MOM which gives him a different spin.) WFTV has positioned articles and headlines that might look ‘balanced’, one for each side, but in reality, the articles or links, were both strongly pro defendant. (EXAMPLE: pairing a GZ article with a ‘Trayvon’ headline, but the Trayvon headline was abaout the cell phone pics that are irrelevant, some unknown person’s photo of someone’s tiny pot seedings, cigarette smoke rings, and the referee ‘fight’ with unproven people in a video that Trayvon took or someone took on Trayvon’s phone etc).

      WFTV is not being balanced. Strange.

    • ks says:

      LOL! Is he serious? Just based on that one moment, huh? GTFO!

  228. ay2z says:

    Records custodian with SPD up now to bring in the ‘ride along’ application/form with the GZ statement on the form “to solidify my chances of….” law inforcement career.

    Cross– 2010 only, not since, and brings point that this custodian found nothing else about defendant in records. (implication, nothing else exists…. that’s reallly too bad because there were tossed charges that involve agression, grab and push of a police officer.

    WOW, Skype is the next witness!! Four Corners connection! This will happen at 11 am today, so 1 1/2 hrsrecess of court until then.



    • ay2z says:

      Intro from the UNESCO page:

      Statement of Significance

      The Mesa Verde landscape in the American south-west is considered to be the type site of the prehistoric Ancestral Puebloan culture, which lasted for some nine hundred years from c 450 to 1300, on this plateau in south-west Colorado at an altitude of more than 2600 meters (8,500 feet). There is a great concentration of spectacular Pueblo Indian dwellings. Some 600 ‘cliff dwellings’ have been recorded within Mesa Verde National Park, including the famous multi-storey ones such as Cliff Palace, Balcony House, and Square Tower House, built of sandstone and mud mortar, and an additional 4100 archaeological sites have been discovered. New discoveries are routinely made.
      Criterion (iii) The exceptional archaeological sites of the Mesa Verde landscape provide eloquent testimony to the ancient cultural traditions of Native American tribes. They represent a graphic link between the past and present ways of life of the Puebloan Peoples of the American south-west.

  229. Court is in recess until 11 am. Next witness will testify via Skype.

  230. Unabogie says:

    Honestly Mantai should have ended with this question…

    “Professor, you and Mr. West just had a pretty lengthy discussion of all the nuances of self-defense, and how specific details are very important in determining guilt or innocence. That’s the kind of discussion you’d have every day in the class you teach, correct?”

  231. riisey007 says:

    I think they have gotten too above the jurors heads with all this legal this and that. They need to keep it simple. I think the state needs to object more because West while long and boring is allowed to make the case for Zimmerman by having Mr. Carter basically explain the law all while pretty much relaying it as Zimmerman being the victim. I do not think this is Carters intention and I believe he wants to do what is right but West has a way of talking so much that it gets to complicated and twisted. Now we are talking about fear in Zimmermans mind. Prosecution needs to get back up there and undo this.

    • chi1224 says:

      But Mantei turned that around by pointing out Fogen had a gun. So who in their right mind is going to believe Fogen feared for his life? He had the gun!

      • riisey007 says:

        It seems that most legal experts , former prosecutors and defense attorneys that’s whom believe he feared for his life. We all call bull shit on it and we know Zimmerman is guilty as sin but the problem is that no one cares except for us and I know there are other supporters of Trayvon as far as Trayvons fears but we are in the minority! it seems there is no way that Trayvon feared for his life because look he had a can of ice tea why didn’t he use it? that is stupid, right? but that seems to be the way people are thinking. They seem to want so badly to believe Zimmermans story regardless of him changing it several times. He had 2 scratches and something happened to his nose but it seems they couldn’t care less how it exactly happened they just care that it happened and Martin seems to be the one who did it so Martin is guilty of beating up Zimmerman and so deserved to die on a dark rainy night. It doesn’t matter that he ran from Zimmerman, it doesn’t matter that NEN caught all of this and it has been played. How sad that the only thing people are concerned about is his nose and head and that is why O’mara keeps showing it as much as possible. We all know that this kid was scared to death. They have painted a pretty picture of Zimmerman being a nice guy who was minding his own business when a big black guy got mad and beat him up. I am scared of any more prosecution witnesses being on the stand. Carter was there and readily available for prosecutions use and they let yet another witness be manipulated by defense. Don’t shoot me but that is how I feel right at this moment.

        • chi1224 says:

          It’s scary to think that Zimmerman may not be convicted, but keep in mind the six women on that jury are sequestered, so they aren’t getting any exposure to the toxic hate out there in the media. I truly believe it is blown out of proportion, and talking heads deliberately try to boost ratings. If you look on Facebook for example you will see pro-Trayvon pages have over a hundred thousand supporters and pro-Zimmerman is like less than 20 thousand and the pages look outdated. Try to keep the faith. The jury is made up of 5 mothers, that is a good thing. They will relate to Sabrina Martin. Hang in there, and hang here, away from the haters. They may be loud, but I honestly don’t believe they are the majority. Besides the evidence in this case speaks for itself, and I think the jury will take this very seriously and convict based on solid evidence. Hang in there!

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          Don’t forget that 5 jurors are mothers. They have no problem recognizing that gz’s lacerations and scratches are simple boo boos.

          Bye bye gz bye bye.

      • ay2z says:

        Fogen’s imprefect self-defense, and Trayvon’s perfect self-defense except that it was ultimately no defense at all in the practical sense, but the only legitimate and proper ‘self-defense’ possible, when this all comes out in the wash.

        IF the jury gets it right.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Definitely not above the juror’s heads.

      • crazy1946 says:

        I agree, the jury is not young and simple minded and quite capable of understand what is being said….. To think other wise would be foolish and play into the thought pattern of MOM and the Ice Cream Man, at the direction of the Fogdoit!

        • breelee says:

          The bad: The jury saw how this witness seemed to really like fogen, which could mean he himself believes GZ’s story. If he felt he was guilty, I’d think we could tell by how he acted towards him. I’m torn on how this went. I wish the state had made more points at the end about how Trayvon fit the profile of a person standing his ground, or at least trying too. I wanted HIS fear to be talked about!

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I disagree, breelee,

            The jury saw that this witness, by saying “How ya doing?” to gz, had NO negative agenda with gz.

          • riisey007 says:

            Me too!! I wanted Carter to talk about what they discussed in the classroom and depth and give us what went on in the classroom environment, how what he taught and what the homework assignments were gave George an advantage as to knowing the law. SYG was called a nickname so the jurors have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t know the actual law. It may seem simple minded but still they have to give that to him. Mr. Carter did hit on some points for prosecution but that is because he went on to explain this himself. Either way the jury can still look at this from Zimmermans point of view. Let me also say this is my opinion and I am not in any way a Zimmerman fan so snide comments aren’t necessary with me because I am on the Martin family side. I to have followed closely and donated since last year.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I am sure gz understood the concepts because he received an A in the course.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            By the way, the witness also said, “How ya doing?” to West.

        • riisey007 says:

          I didn’t say they were simple minded or young but everything doesn’t require someone breaking out a law book in order to understand. These jurors are regular people and when it came to what he was taught it should have been plain and simple and to the point. When defense came up they should have played right into prosecutions hands instead SYG was called a nickname and not formally introduced to Zimmerman.

  232. Sabrina B. says:

    Did he ride a long and then complain that he knew better than the cops he rode along with? What a sleazeball. No wonder he didn’t go back. He knew he wouldn’t be allowed back.

    • ay2z says:

      That is a really good point, Sabrina. The criticism of the police, the criticism of the police responses to his neighbhorhood with ‘these assholes ALWAYS get away’ (even when the Aug 6 event was followed up and subjects questioned, even when an arrest was made in other events at R at Twin Lakes).

      We know now that the killer got an ‘A’ in his ‘Criminal’ law course from the now Captain Carter, JAG, who recalled his student as one of the better students in the class.

  233. Kreszki is a records custodian for the Sanford Police Department. He introduces the defendant’s application to ride-a-long because he is interested in a career in law enforcement.

  234. smokeegyrl says:

    what just happened?

    • smokeegyrl says:

      Fogen, looked pissed. What happened?

      • Rachael says:

        He got caught in a BIG lie. Not only had he heard about SYG, but he had a section on it in a class that he even got an A in and the teacher even remembered him because of it. So he LIED on Hannity.

    • ay2z says:

      Damn!! It was beautiful!!

      An enthusiastic young black male teacher, not chosen by his particular academic, social, gender, race, age, work, lawyer, same ‘African-American as Trayvon’ profile aspects by the state, a completely unbiased instructor who said hi to ex-student with a polite greeting from the stand.

      And the defense laid a foundation for the concept of who had the right of self-defense in that dark back area, away from inside 1950, and even away from Brandy Greene’s condo.

      Who? The idea that there is even this question, is now in the juror’s minds, even if they haven’t yet considered it.

  235. SearchingMind says:

    West is a disaster for GZ re: imperfect self-defense

    Jury Instruction: Self-defense

    A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary
    to prevent

    1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another,


    2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.


    the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:

    1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of (applicable forcible felony);


    2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:

    a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).

    b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

  236. Sabrina B. says:

    Solidify his chances of becoming a police officer.

  237. willisnewton says:

    Here comes the ride-along. George actually complained about the cops on this ride-along, right? Not only is he a wanna-be, he’s also a whiner.

  238. lurker says:

    SPD records keeper.

    Zim applied to ride along.

  239. willisnewton says:

    It’s clear now who “coached” George on how to make up a false narrative alleging self-defense, and it’s clear HE GOT AN “A” from someone who went over all the details multiple times.

    • Rachael says:

      As well, he outright LIED on Hannity.

      • chi1224 says:

        Yep. Yesterday the jury saw the video and Fogen flat out lied. And the jury can replay that video so there will be no doubt about it!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yes, willis. Not sure jury gets that, though.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yes he got it all from Mr Carter, he got A’s because he learned what to do. But the problem is that the defense has manipulated this to their advantage. I don’t see this as a win for prosecution. Sorry, prosecution just let West have too many field days in court.

      • Eric says:

        Carter will be back at some point, then the hammer will drop.

      • elcymoo says:

        I do see this as a win for the prosecution. The last questions asked by West elicited answers from Capt. Carter about the disproportionate use of force, including deadly force.

  240. colin black says:

    skellator thinks knowlage in class is gained by osmosis an photographic /memory of facts.
    Hence if you go to toilet or miss a class were self defence is taught.

    That’s it GAME OVER.

    You missed that piece of data an will never ever be able to learn it

    Say as home work or library
    An Ive heard rumours of a magical spiderinnerwovenworldwide web
    Sounds like SF Fantasy to me m o o

    Any way that’s there defence foggagge is stupid has a bad memory anyway

    An as he is suffering lower back pain due to constipation.


    Is that a medical term hypothetcly speaking OFF FULL OF SHIT.

    An hypothetically our client so full of excreament had to rush out of class for hours.

    Sat on the toilet bowl he wanted no part of it but he couldn’t stop.

    We have all been there ladys an gentlemen


    I tell you members of the jury if you had beeb in the toilet when my client had to GO


    And he was on the pan for hours ladys an gentlemen of the supposed jury

    An if you had been in there you would also not HAVE STOOOD YOUR GROUND

    You would have fled

    Can you imagine the stench.

    He wasn’t wairing DIEPERS ladys an gentlemen

    Don’t make diepers that big not even astrnuts can get dipers that big

    Hence he missed practicallall his Collage classes
    Because he was full of excreament not his fault its only GOD has that sort of clout.

    So not only did he not graduate he was also constipate.

    Please if you believe my client is full of shit you must aquit.

  241. Mantei was great on that one (imperfect self defense).
    GZ had no major wound after a whole minute of fight and he met that force with a gunshot.

    • lurker says:

      Yep, if he had no gun, the police would have arrived and found a tussle.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I wish I was but I’m not so sure about what you say tcoupi.

      From how I see it the defence’s is aware the injuries were not serious enough to be dangerous therefore their argument is going to be about the blows that weren’t. They started yesterday when, after the medical expert explained that the bruises from GZ’s head hitting concrete were minor, MOM retorted, “and the next?” which confused her as she obviously didn’t realise where he was going, so she didn’t reply only asked what he meant, but the State objected so it stayed with no reply.

      • Malisha says:

        Since Fogen was trying to find an address that wasn’t (where the real suspicious guy went), it stands to reason he should fear injuries that weren’t, too. After all, he already had a degree that wasn’t and a mentoring position that wasn’t, and a thousand African American friends who dearly loved him who weren’t. Force of habit.

    • texad says:


      Captain Carter-after showing his knowledge regarding self defense and SYG- schooled Don West about “imperfect self defense”. GZ and his attys can scream self defense all they want-but it is a bastardization of the truth and the law.

      Mantei re-inforced the difference between self defense vs. imperfect self defense. I got it and I bet the jurors did too.

  242. ay2z says:

    Captain Carter is now excused. The judge thanked him ‘very much’.

    This could be a blow for the state, but Mr. Mantai knows what he and his team are doing.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Glad to see someone else thought the same too. I thought it could be a blow to the State as you, but others seem to think it wasn’t.

      • cielo62 says:

        gbrbsb~ How could it be a blow to the state? Not being mean, I just don’t see your POV. Could you explain? I see that gz was caught in multiple lies re: SYG and self defense. What did you see?


  243. Tzar says:

    I told y’all west was about to bury his client

    • chi1224 says:

      And you were right!! I was so happy when Mantei turned that around! Fogen had a fucking GUN, so who was the threat!

  244. breelee says:

    So killing a kid that’s trying his damndest to get away from you, is Excessive force, BAM!

  245. Sabrina B. says:


  246. disappointed says:

    excessive force, they you go.

  247. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Good show, Mr. Guy!

  248. lurker says:

    Excessive force in response to aggression.

    Like a gunshot.

  249. jodiwankanobi says:

    slam dunk!

  250. RastaGirl says:

    So seems to me they pulled a fast one… He’s using him basically as closing arguements on self defense

  251. riisey007 says:

    Is Zimmerman sister swooning?

  252. ay2z says:

    Trayvon, sorry for typo, my new glasses are not adjusting well yet.

  253. jodiwankanobi says:

    say again…haha love it

  254. SearchingMind says:

    Is the defense conceding that GZ “bumped” Trayvon and that GZ was the aggressor? And that Trayvon “overreacted”? Really?! This is a disaster cross-examination.

    • ay2z says:

      Hope they can bring a past ‘victim’ of a GZ grab and push and foul language.

      Hope the state can make it ‘crystal clear’ (alluding to JAG and
      AFGM) to the jury, that Mark Osterman, air marshall and past cop, was NOT testifying as to his own opinion of what the ‘facts’ were or are in this case, because he is NOT an ‘Expert Witness’, and that he has strong biases of being a friend, and may be, as Dr. Phil pointed out, part of the chain in this killing.

      Osterman’s conclusions are so flawed by bias. He’s got assumptions coming outta his …. well I don’t like to use certain words in front of … 😉

      • ay2z says:

        This defense team should watch the ASS-sumptions about women who you have to salute in the morning.

        This jury must be recognized, this court as Judge Debra Nelson, must be recognized. The court and the jurors must be respected, and MOM has not, when he has tried to speak to the jurors, give them lessons on the SYG/SD law, or ask if they want a break to coddle them into thinking he’s mr. nice guy.

        Careful where and how you tread, West and O’Mara and admitted killer defendant client. Careful of digging at the female on the bench, careful about letting the jury hear or see or feel your subtle biased personal attitudes that leak out.

  255. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    Mantei is totally smiling because West walked right into his trap.

  256. ay2z says:

    Haven’t been following the blog, just listening and watching.

    Anyone figure out how this cross can turn against the defendant?

    Castle doctrine, in house shifts to outside, this witness teacher (in a complimentary sense, ‘teach’er’ because this young lawyer loves sharing his knowledge)

    IE: “it’s dark, outside, someone grabs someone….” WHO was grabbed?

    The assumption in this cross is about GZ as victim, or the user of ‘self-defense’.

    They could be talking about Trayvibn.

    Nose hit imprefect self-defense to a grab of your clothing to hold you, and you have fear of this person who has proactively followed, watched, followed again in vehicle, and then got out to follow or keep an eye out in ‘close proximity’?

    • Tzar says:

      exactly what I have been saying

      • ay2z says:

        Tzar, Mr. Mantai is wonderful, he’s clear, understandable, and he has a quiet but clear passion, not over the top style, and he’s always on top of the law, makes sense to a lay person in his presentation. And he speaks so well, without fumbles, um’s and ahs. Easy to listen to and comprehend.

        Have to wonder if Mr. Mantai will close.

  257. HereslookingatYou says:

    the prosecution should ask ..does defending oneself apply if you are followed and pursued and the creepy person attempts to detain you …does SD apply to that person that is in fear.

  258. West also forgot to mention that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense or that pursuit can constitute aggression.

    • Tzar says:

      it’s funny how they always forget that

    • ay2z says:

      Following, watching, following…. women have a unique perspective on this, awareness, but also young people, younger children, are also taught to be aware, and to be defensive if an adult stranger tries to approach them and first thing ‘get away!’…. as Dr. Phil told Osterman on his interview, that Dr. PHil’s father told him “Son…. the first thing you do is RUN boy… RUN!”

      Someone grabs you, you RUN! Unless you can’t get away, and a punch to the face may be your first and appropriate action. If the grab doesn’t let go, you might come down right on top of the person, especially if you are lighter, and even taller than the person. Being on the bottom does not necessitate the conclusion of ‘victim’ of agression.

      • cielo62 says:

        ay2z~ go for eyeballs, genitalia or bending fingers. THOSE cause alot of pain and maybe allow you to escape.


    • KA says:

      There is a female defense attorney in FL I read a blog post on months ago that thought this case could be won by prove that following (repeatedly) and Trayvon’s awareness could be argued as aggravated assault (since he was armed) in which GZ would be doing a felony at the time which excludes SYG and self defense completely.

      She said there were other cases in FL that were gave following in a car, intimidating with a car aggravated assault.

  259. Sabrina B. says:

    Love how they get their stuff out there and then when it is state’s turn they want to approach.

  260. ada4750 says:

    Damm. West. There is two level of acceptable level for self-defense depending if your are the initial aggressor or not.

    He knows, he just want to confuse the jury.

  261. SearchingMind says:

    West’s line of questioning seems to suggest that the defense is conceding that GZ’s injuries were “very insignificant”.

  262. fauxmccoy says:

    yup west .. quit while you are a ‘head’

  263. My Forehead Tho says:

    Is West indirectly confirming RJ’s testimony that Fogen pushed/shoved/grabbed Trayvon?

  264. Sabrina B. says:

    Next question Mantai, What if you were chasing that person would they have reason to be fearful of imminent danger?

  265. jodiwankanobi says:

    the table turned because the person who started it not only showed some force but had stalked the child for 5 minutes…may not be physical force but it would scare the bejesus out of me and i would punch him in the neck to make sure he couldn’t rape me….fuck finding out how much “force” he was going to use.

    • willisnewton says:

      Said fear of rape was discussed verbally by the victim shortly before he was killed. ANd yes, he was stalked by a moving car before he was pursued on foot.

  266. There’s a duty to attempt to withdraw with imperfect self-defense that West “forgot” to mention in his hypothetical..

  267. disappointed says:

    wrestling vs gun.

  268. Cercando Luce says:

    So strange that West, in trying to draw the witness into clearing Fogen for self-defense, makes him discuss Trayvon’s situation. Witness failed to remind that aggressor can’t ask for protection under SYG.

  269. chi1224 says:

    Who the fuck had a GUN???

  270. Deborah Moore says:

    Let me ask, and anyone can answer.
    The charge is Murder 2. If he’s found not guilty of that, is Manslaughter still on the table, automatically? I really want to know.

  271. lurker says:

    West keeps pushing the envelope.

  272. chi1224 says:

    Did West just concede– “even if you started it”

    • lurker says:

      He sure did.

      Now, Mantei can clean up and ask the witness if this is something that he actually taught in class.

      • chi1224 says:

        Yep, he was just starting to go there and West asked to be heard at the bench! JN better let Mantei take his shot!

  273. Sabrina B. says:

    Even if you start it.

  274. disappointed says:

    so he is admitting fogen started.

  275. DruDo says:

    West should retire. NOW.

  276. willisnewton says:

    I hope the jury gets as much information on ALL SIDES as possible so no one can whine later when he is found guilty.

  277. Rachael says:

    Let’s use THIS hypothetical Mr. West. After taking this man’s class, If GZ were to go on Hannity, hypothetically, of course, would it be reasonable that he could go on national TV and say before this all happened, he’d never heard of SYG?

  278. chi1224 says:

    I hope West opened some doors for the prosecution to turn this around, because this is bullshit!

    • Rachael says:

      Yes, he has. The more this guy shows that GZ knew about SYG, the more it shows he lied on Hannity.

  279. jodiwankanobi says:

    i wanted no part of this because when i followed him for 5 minutes and confronted him i didn’t realise he might not accept my authority

  280. gwynne says:

    Mr. Mantei…please object

  281. Sabrina B. says:

    Ok time for pros. to shut this down.

  282. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    There must be a reason prosecution is letting West go this far…they want him to have just enough rope.

  283. disappointed says:

    west is crazy!

  284. Hello everyone! Just got back from an amazing, gorgeous wedding in Williamstown Massachusetts. Getting caught up….

  285. Tzar says:

    Like I said up thread
    West is about to bury his client

    • MichelleO says:

      He’s currently trying to UNBURY him.

    • gbrbsb says:

      IMBW, probably am, but I saw it the other way, so what did I miss that made it so good?

      • Tzar says:

        every element of self defense favors Trayvon, all the way down to disproportionate use of force

        • gbrbsb says:

          Hope you’re right Tzar. My concern is that defence is not arguing fear of death or GBH on the basis of the blows GZ received, they showed that yesterday when MOM retorted to the medical expert, just after she said something about GZ’s injuries from his head hitting concrete were minor, “and the next”, i.e. and the next blow? They are arguing how was GZ to know “the next” couldn’t/wouldn’t be fatal and how many blows to the head would he be expected to take before he could defend himself.

          • Tzar says:

            The reasonable and prudent man standard does not apply to George
            it is the core tenet of self-defense
            Trayvon ran twice, the first time confirmed by George himself
            Self-defense simply does not apply to a guy who arms himself with a gun and goes after someone who is running from him. No amount of obfuscation can change that.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Again, I hope your right but I tend to always prepare myself for the worst, in first instance in case I have the resources to counter act it, or if not, so that it doesn’t come as too much of a blow.

          • acemayo says:

            so what you are saying no matter If i get pushed or hit
            by someone as long as I believe deadly force might follow
            I can kill you

          • gbrbsb says:

            No, I am obviously not saying that although even in your scenario of being “pushed or hit”, it might still be valid depending on circumstances, e.g. if as a women I am pushed by a large man alone at night, I may well be able to use both self-defence and probably SYG too if I shot him dead, at least in Florida.

            What I am saying, is that if the defence can raise a reasonable doubt that GZ’s head was being hit into concrete, due to the potential seriousness of even light blunt traumas to the head, such as the one that killed Natasha Richardson, or the one that left a good friend of mine epileptic for life after playfully falling back from a mere ground seated position while horsing around in the park.

            I am not saying it will work, but if I understand it correctly the jury only needs one reasonable doubt and IMO that is a very high burden for the State.

  286. DruDo says:

    Good grief…shut up, West.

    • Sophia33 says:

      No let him keep talking. As someone told me about Taaffe the other day, he is the gift that keeps on giving.

  287. MichelleO says:

    I need to go to the bathroom, Mr. West!

  288. fauxmccoy says:

    this is not looking good for george, no matter what west is trying to make this

    • gbrbsb says:

      IMBW but it looked to me much too focussed on this case and more like West was completing his argument of what happened with the help of this honest witness.

  289. Now DW is speaking for Trayvon

  290. smokeegyrl says:

    Is wondering where RZjr been since all of these days. Haven’t heard from him online or on twitter. Have any of you? lol

  291. Rachael says:


  292. gbrbsb says:

    This is ridiculous… West is trying to bring in with this witness the theory around what he said to the medical expert yesterday… “and the next”, meaning the next hit to GZ’s head, i.e. he is trying to fix in the juries mind that even if the injuries were minimum, not serious, how could GZ know whether the next time his head hit the concrete would not be fatal, and he is doing it all through the back door and unfortunately JN and de state are allowing it but maybe they can’t do much about it either!

    Hope State and JN can sanitize all of this.

  293. chi1224 says:

    This is pissing me off! WTF!

  294. jodiwankanobi says:

    so if someone is yelling at me i can shoot them because i never know when or if they may pull out a knife and stab me or hit me with a brick or poke my eye out…..

    • crazy1946 says:

      Or even pick up a sidewalk and hit you with it!

    • Lynn says:

      My daughter was saying “So anyone in this courtroom might get in their cars going home and ram into me, therefore I should be able to open fire on all of them just in case?” LOL