Prosecution delivers in seventh day of trial in Zimmerman case

Tuesday, July 2, 2013

Good afternoon:

This was a strong day for the prosecution.

Today’s session began with Judge Nelson instructing the jury to disregard Investigator Chris Serino’s testimony that he believed the defendant told the truth. Judge Nelson had ruled in limine before the trial began that police officers cannot express their personal opinions as to the defendant’s guilt or innocence or whether he told the truth. Defense attorney Mark O’Mara violated that order when he asked Serino if he believed the defendant. Therefore, Judge Nelson properly ordered the jury to disregard Serino’s answer.

If the shoe had been on the other foot and a prosecutor had asked the lead investigator if he believed the defendant when he denied guilt and the answer was “No,” a mistrial would have been declared and the jury would have been sent home. If the error were deemed deliberate (i.e., provoked) because the trial was not going well, the Double Jeopardy Clause would prevent a retrial

Although not much was said about what happened, it was a very serious error and an extremely sleazy move by O’Mara.

In any event, Serino was defending how he handled the case before it was taken away from him. He had formed his opinion based on eye and ear witness testimony, the defendant’s statements, and his recorded NEN call. He did not have the benefit of considering the forensic evidence that has not been introduced yet and the autopsy report.

In a strong redirect, Bernie de la Rionda reviewed several inconsistencies in the defendant’s statements, such as his claims that he forgot the name of one of only three streets in his neighborhood, his claim that he had to walk all the way to Retreat View Circle to look for an address when they were right in front of his face on Twin Trees Lane, and his claim that he did not follow Trayvon Martin even though he admitted that he went in the same direction.

The State played the Hannity interview in which the defendant denied knowing anything about the SYG law, expressed no regrets, and said it was all according to God’s plan. He said he did not believe Trayvon Martin was afraid of him and also said he was not afraid of Trayvon Martin whom he described as “skipping away” instead of running away.

Dr. Valerie Rao, a forensic pathologist and assistant medical examiner testified that the defendant’s injuries to his face were minor and insignificant and could have been caused by a single blow.

The State was going to follow that testimony with the testimony of a professor at the local community college introducing the defendant’s textbook and course work on the law of self-defense and Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. They also had his application for employment with a police force in a county in Virginia and an application to ride-a-long as a civilian with a Sanford police officer.

Defense objected and Judge Nelson gave the defense until tomorrow morning at 8:30 am to prepare a response.

This was a strong day for the prosecution.

(H/T to disappointed for reminding me to include the defendant’s description during the Hannity interview of Trayvon “skipping.”)


Your continuing support allows me to continue posting independent articles like this.

Please consider making a donation to keep independent journalism alive.

Thank you

617 Responses to Prosecution delivers in seventh day of trial in Zimmerman case

  1. Malisha says:

    Dear Diary, Have a great day!

  2. diary73 says:

    I have gotten checked in. They have us waiting in the overflow room until about 8:30. Then they will escort all of us to the actual courtroom together. I exchanged salutations with Rene S. in the lobby.

    Even though I arrived quite early, I may not be able to select my seat. I have been assigned Public Seat #7.

  3. jo says:

    just to let you guys know..i started a word press account because i was checking out whonoze site and when i went to post i had to register and thought i had to set up an account… every time i post it thinks i’m a new name (i needed more than 2 letters)…i can post under jo but i have to remember to delete the new name and then enter a password blah blah blah…so if you see any posts from jodiwankanobi (yes in reference to obi wan) then just know that it is me…….i have posted a few comments but they are waiting moderation so when they pop up it’s just moi….cheers

  4. jo says:

    i don’t have a legal mind but i agree with you, nice post.

  5. tashatexas77048 says:

    Clearly the law says the force you use must be equal to the force you receive UNLESS the person is in the process of committing a crime and at THAT POINT your use of force is justified just by virtue of the fact that they were committing one felony and harming you could be their second felony. You don’t have to wait for felony number two (before taking action if during the commission of the felony you are threatened as well.) In this case, Zimmerman realized after frisking Martin that there was no evidence.that Martin was involved in a felonious act BEFORE he made contact with him so to satisfy the requirements of the law in.regards to justifiable use of force at that time, he hyperinflates the threat that Martin posed to him to COVER UP the fact that he had presumed Martin to be in the act of committing a crime and therefore his killing of his was justified. (His injuries in this case must absolutely match his story because he claims Martin tried to murder him. That is not his perception of Martin’s intent but is what he says happened by Martin’s actions and words but his injuries and the DNA evidence does not match his story.) He tried to use his knowledge of the law to his advantage but what he didnt count on is.that his so called dangerous.thug robbery suspect only had candy, lived there, would scream for his life and was ON THE PHONE. Zimmerman’s view of Martin was clearly that Martin was a burglar. No one could convince him otherwise. He killed Martin out of spite and ill will, time and again mixing his tale of seeing Martin with what he had witnessed with the Burgess kid as if they were the same person. He tells you exactly why he killed Trayvon. It is the wing nuts contention that if Martin punched him even once UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, he was justified in killing him, that is not what the law says.

    (The above was my response to someone on the debate politics forum about why Zimmerman’s injuries would need to be consistent with his account of what happened between him and Martin) Anything in () was added here.

    Thoughts on the legal aspect of this and possible jury instructions regarding FL justifiable use of force laws?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Great post, Tasha.

    • Check out the Florida pattern jury instructions for criminal cases to see the instructions that Judge Nelson will use to instruct the jury.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Jury Instruction, State Of Florida

      § 782.04(2), Fla.Stat.

      To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

      1. (Victim) is dead.

      2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

      3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

      An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

      An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

      1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

      2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

      3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

      In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

    • KateW says:

      This is Florida. What laws exist here? Marissa Alexander was jailed for 30 years with no murder and this man murders a kid and walks. Casey Anthony, without a doubt, murders her child, makes up some ridiculous story how she came up missing and parties all night without a care in the world. She gets away with murder. I have no faith in the Floridians or the system. The system is biased towards race and a horrible failure given these particular examples and countless others. Had Zimmerman been Black he would have been locked up long ago for murder 1.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yes this is a great post. I have read most of your post and tend to agree with a lot of things that you have stated.

  6. Michael says:

    HI – I am from Australia and I just have a few general questions if i may.
    If a mistrial is declared for what ever reason is the testimony in this trial usable in a 2nd trial or does everyone have to testify again?
    If in jury deliberations the jury decides guilty then one of the jurors becomes suddenly ill. Does the sick juror have to appear in court for the reading of the verdict or once they have voted they can go to hospital/lie down etc. If after the jurors reached a decision they are ready to go back into court but one is sick does their vote court or do they need to get an alternate and start deliberations again?

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      yay … hi i’m from australia too, so i can’t help with your questions but welcome….good to see you here.

      there are many peeps in the know here so i’m sure they will be able to answer all your queries.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        argggh i started a word press account and now it’s posting me as this user name because i couldn’t just use jo……but this is jo.

      • michael says:

        The American Legal System is a funny animal. Watching the lawyers in the courtroom makes me think these guys are amateurs. You would think if you had a law degree you would think you would know how to use a computer (I saw them struggle to take a CD out of a computer seriously) I am sure it is not much better in Australia but we do not broadcast our incompetence on national TV.

        Sorry for any offense to my American friends you have a great country but sometimes ………………

        Man Shoots teenager hmmmm do we have a trial …..nah Do ya think anyone will notice………What… now people have noticed better cover are asses – The fact that they almost did not arrest this guy leaves me shaking my head in disbelief
        OK then lets have a trial
        Call the clowns and get the circus going.
        prosecutor clown v defense clown
        Really!! This is only marginally better then not having a trail IMO

        If someone wrote this in a book I would have called it fiction

        I think you system is a a bit broken

        my humble opinion based purely on my observations

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          oh geez u got it spot on…except i do have faith in BDLR and his co-council.

          i have posted before the differences in legal systems such as juror anonymity and protection of information so as not to tarnish the case. I think Florida is more extreme than most US states however and like i said, the people here friggen rock so they can update us with all our questions.

          stick around and hoodies up

  7. diary73 says:

    Oh goodness! I am so anxious and excited to sit in on the trial today. No sleep for me. I have awakened several times now and can’t go back to sleep this time. The one thing I wish I could do is to simply hug Ms. Fulton.

    • jo says:

      i’m so excited for you too..we’ve all been waiting so long for this trial and you get to be there and feel it. I hope it’s another blinder for the prosecution and we will be looking out for you. You might get a chance to give ur love to the family in the foyer or something and don’t forget to tell them we love them too.

      what a big day for you

      justice for Trayvon

    • boyd says:

      can you tweet in there?

    • disappointed says:

      diary73 We are all excited for you! I went to be at 3 am and I’m up already. I do not want to miss a minute of this trial. I am on the edge of my seat waiting on your perception of the courtroom atmosphere.

    • MrSykes says:

      I will be looking forward to your commentary. Would love to hear about the jury’s reactions as well.

    • diary73 says:

      I will certainly post comments; however, I will not be permitted to do so from the courtroom. In my instructions, I was told not to use electronic devices in the courtroom. During the lunch break and afterwards, I will let you all know what I observe. I am sitting in the parking lot right now, anxiously awaiting the opening of the doors.

  8. MichelleO says:

    Great article about Trayvon’s friend, Rachel Jeantel:

    ““But Trayvon was one of the few guys, okay, and this is what, I mean, this ripped, tore my heart apart. She said he was one of the few guys that never made fun of me, about the way I dressed, about the way I talked, about my hair, about my complexion, you know, about my weight. And she said, so we communicated, because Rachel was, she was pretty much an introvert and so for her to be a 19-year-old young lady…”

  9. bellesouth says:

    I found Don West’s response to the state’s motion regarding the picture his daughter put up on the web. This odd bit was stuck in the middle of the response — out of nowhere.

    “It’s a shame that it has become a distraction to the trial, which is finally showing through the evidence what we’ve been saying for more than a year, George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.”

    Yeah, right! Keep dreaming.

    Click to access West-response-pdf.pdf

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Sounds like a wet dream to me

    • crazy1946 says:

      Typical response from a bully, blame the victim! The big bad state should not have released the information because he had already made a statement about it… Yeah sure, this man still does not accept responsibility for the actions of his spawn or himself! I make a motion he is covered with tar, rolled in turkey feathers placed on a rail and given a ride out of town at high noon! Wow, that would be a good main event function for the local 4th of July parade…….

  10. thejbmission says:

    Thank you Prof. for today’s recap. I had to run out on errands right before the State asked to introduce GZ’s school records and such.

    I hope Judge Nelson gives this one to the State. IMO, the fact that GZ lied to Hannity regarding his knowledge of SYG laws proves to the jury that he’s capable of telling lies to a nationally known television host in front of millions of people without batting an eye.
    Makes one wonder if he’d do the same to Serino or anyone else.

    As for his two failed attempts to make into LE and as the killer of an innocent kid that he refers to as “the suspect” in his written statement certainly raises the question as to his motivation on the night of the killing. Jumping out of the safety of one’s vehicle to follow a stranger takes courage. I think his courage was in his holster and his motive was to play cop that night since he wasn’t a real one because no normal person would do that unless he’s chomping at the bit to be a cop. I think the jury will get it.





    • MedicineBear says:

      Excellent view of SERIOUS kickback using one-handed grip! This might be a better link to it:

      Great work Van! I agree with your assessment (because the evidence agrees with your assessment!).

  12. Can someone tell me why Zimmerman’s prints are not on the gun he used to kill Trayvon? How can his prints not be on the gun?

    • he may have wiped his own gun off prior to holstering it…

      i think the bigger question is when did he chamber a round into the gun…Are we suppose to believe that he keep it chambered at home? Or that he chambered it prior to leaving home to go to Target? Or the more than likley version that he chambered it shortly after leaving his car and confronting TM

      • MedicineBear says:

        CAC carried his gun with a hollow-point round in the chamber — no need to “rack it” before firing.

        • i understand that…so the questions remains when did he chamber the bullet…I’m sure he doesnt store the gun at home with it chambered…So did he do that prior to going to target?

    • acemayo says:

      If the prints is not GZ, and it is not TM prints, maybe someone
      had the gun and GZ help pull the trigger

    • aussie says:

      I think there’s partials. There’s not a very big area on the gun to take prints, they get smeared in the handling, and there’s grooves and curves and patterns everywhere. They tested it to DNA and did find that; NONE of Trayvons’ of course.

    • ic2fools says:

      Tag team of Ofc Smith and wife!. Ofc Smith O’Fife didn’t wear gloves, tucked ‘the gun’ in his waistbandt (rubbin his shirt against ‘the gun’ and then sat it on the seat without placing ‘the gun’ in an evidence bag, giving it to his wifey Olive Oyl Smith who didn’t test the side of ‘the gun’ grip or the bottom of ‘the gun’ grip only the slide and trigger, ahem hmmmm and gee why would they do something like that?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Great catch, ic2fools.

        And, look at how he has his hands all over gz’s clothing and jacket zipper in the garage bay of SPD headquarters.

        Is Ofc Smith the one who allowed gz to wash up unattended at the SPD?

    • Dave says:

      Conscienscious gunowners try to avoid getting fingerprints on the steel parts of their guns and when they do they promptly wipe them off. That’s because fingerprints cause rust, not for some nefarious reason. The frame of Zimmerman’s gun is made of textured plastic which probably wouldn’t take usable prints.

    • It’s difficult to get fingerprints from a gun. Surfaces used for grips aren’t smooth, so you won’t find prints there.

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ Maybe he wiped them off before he reholstered his gun? If the gun  had water on it from the drizzle, he could have rubbed it dry and hence could have cleaned the prints off.


  13. acemayo says:

    Too many people think rain water wash on the blood off of TM
    hands and clothes, but it did wash off all the blood on GZ face
    or head or clothes as it did TM. Remember the AM wash him
    up and he wash his hand at the police station

  14. Rachael says:

    Sorry this is going to be long, but I’m more sure now than ever that not only was that Trayvon screaming, but that GZ was “torturing” him before he shot him.

    I was listening to the radio and these 2 radio guys were talking about the trial. They got off on a tangent about mentality changing when you have a gun.

    Anyway, the radio guy had lived in Philadelphia and had a friend who got mugged because he had to go through a bad neighborhood to get to where he lived. So he bought a gun and got all the paperwork involved etc. and was walking home one night as it was just dark and two kids came up to him and one asked him what time it was and this is how it started the first time he was mugged. So he looked down to tell the time and the other kid jumped at him and asked for his wallet. He said, “Sure, I’ll get you my wallet” and pulled out the gun. He said all the rage from the first mugging came back to him and he knew these weren’t the same kids who mugged him the first time, but basically like GZ said, he was tired of it and wasn’t going to take it anymore. The guy said he wouldn’t even have known who they were if he’d have been asked to identify them, but he was so angry that he had the kids on their knees, had the gun to their ears, in their eyes, in their mouth before he let them go. He didn’t do anything to them, but he tortured them for a very long time before letting them go and then went home and threw up. He said if someone would have come along he would have yelled for help, but as long as no one was there, he just kept doing what he was doing and again, if he’d have to pick them out in a lineup wouldn’t even have recognized them, he was just like running on rage of what had happened previously and now having power with a gun.

    To me the story sounded almost the same – except he didn’t kill the kids, he went home, threw up and got rid of the gun.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree. That last scream was someone torturing someone. That last scream was Trayvon seeing his death coming.

      Also, did you see how Serino answered “O’Mara”?

      O’Mara: He could be telling the truth

      Serino: Oh just a pathological liar.

      Did you see how he said that? The tone in which he said it.

      Zimmerman is a psychopath.

    • cielo62 says:

      Rachael~ That’s because your friend is a HUMAN BEING. He was afraid of the monster that the POWER of a gun gave him. He threw up at that horrible realization. So he threw away the gun to save his soul. SMART guy. gz on the other hand, WANTS to be that monster, WANTS to have that power, and he DOES and WILL KILL AGAIN.


  15. Woow! says:

    Someone should put Taaffe, Papa/MamaZ, Robbie the Racist, CAC, and CACinDrag (aka the sister) on an island of black men. How long do you think it will take before they commit suicide or get their tails beat?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Have some pity for the black men, who have better things to do than babysit these crackpots.

  16. willisnewton says:

    Only in Florida …. Sick sad world

    • MedicineBear says:

      Florida is aptly shaped like a man’s crotch. It’s the limp sweaty crotch rot of our country.

  17. Sophia33 says:

    Just watched HLN After Dark. It took them months but they finally mentioned that Trayvon would have had to be a contortionist to pull of getting Zimmerman’s gun from a straddled position. Especially since he could see the gun.

    So what are the defense allegations now about Trayvon?

    He was a skipping, contortionist, octo-limbed thug.

    I call b.s.!

    • Sophia33 says:

      Meant to say, especially since he could NOT see the gun.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      It’s an impossible act to carry out, right. And then to announce “You’re going to die tonight” while looking at the grown mans gun. That is the most ridiculous of all the ridiculous that he could muster. And I thought the backs of the houses was ridiculous. If asked what house you are in front of, why focus on the house that you are in back of?

  18. kllypyn says:

    I’m not a lawyer but i’m sure Mr leatherman will agree with me on this. Getting beaten up is no justification for shooting someone to death.If it was there are al ot of people in prison today who should be released. Two people get into a fight they both take their lumps one person loses the other wins and both parties go on about their business. Basically his defense is “i was beaten up i had to shoot him. Trayvon was no match for him and couldn’t beat him up if he tried. he simply tried to escape. I hope the prosecution points that out.

    • @kllypyn you really have to look at the evidence and evaluate everyone’s opinion then give an idea why you come to the conclusion what happened. What makes it difficult for me to agree with your assessment is one simple truth, There is absolutely no evidence that TM put his hands on GZ in any fashion. TM was followed then chased then found so there more to it than just 2 people in a fight, there is every reason to believe TM was in fear for his life if you don’t want to believe he was the one screaming on the 911 call.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      To this day I don’t believe Trayvon Martin hit Fogen. I believe that when when Fogen made his initial contact with Trayvon… Fogen was behind him and when he was on the phone with Dee Dee… he turned around and asked Fogen why are you following me for… and Fogen said what are you doing around here… I fell asleep and woke up from dreaming… I needed to write this down. I seen Fogen snatched him… by his sweat shirt pulling the button away … he shot him… Trayvon fallingl to his knees… everything was in slow motion… Fogen falling with Trayvon… Trayvon’s head butted Fogen’s nose has he was coming down with him… but in front of him… Fogen’s head hits the concrete has Trayvon fell to the grass face down hands underneath him. Nose is injured.

      If anyone has ever seen a head butting scene in a soccer game, football game… knows head butting can throw somebody in front of them. hence… the head on the concrete. anywayz… this was my dream.

  19. riisey007 says:

    A psychologist said something very interesting tonight on Nancy Grace, he said that in George Zimmermans mind he is telling the truth, in his mind this is what he had to do. I find that interesting and possibly why he passed the lie detector test and we he does not have any emotion, he basically is irritated with having be bothered with this whole trial. We all know he has mental problems. Of course we will not know how deep because the records won’t be opened in court but he certainly does. Another thing is she had a retired police captain who said he and his police friends were concerned as to why Zimmerman was riding around with a gun as neighborhood watch he also wanted to know why it is that Zimmerman felt so much responsibility for this neighborhood. I wonder that to especially since he only rented there.

    • He wasn’t even renting…..hadn’t paid his rent in months… the process of eviction…..In reality…he was a squatter…………

      How bad can fogen be?….He called the cops on his landlord in a store when he was confronted about the back rent…………..

      • jo says:

        really??? i hadn’t heard that one before…..gee i bet his landlord is feeling lucky, we all know what happens when george doesn’t think you should be there.

        • racerrodig says:

          It’s a fact and you’re correct…in that order. He had his mom’s electric shut off a few years ago because he had a tiff with her…..and how he managed that since the account wasn’t in his name is still a mystery.

          • Nef05 says:

            He turned it off at the circuit box, then locked the box. It’s in the girlfriend’s FBI statement where she talks about him kicking the dog and finding him on the bed with the teenaged neighbor and her baby.

    • willisnewton says:

      He did not pass any lie detector test. And he knows he lied, period. He lied to hide his guilt, and to satisfy the exact bullet pouts of self defense which he was familiar with.

      The verbal death threat is an obvious example, what sort of person sees someone else is armed and FIRST tells them they plan to kill them? That’s a suicidal idea! Yet GZ said this with a straight face and we are supposed to believe him?

    • MedicineBear says:

      That’s the definition of a sociopath (aka “CAC”).

  20. Sabrina B. says:

    I don’t know how much this was touched on but, Osterman said there were actually two reasons that fogen says he got out of the car. One was to get an address and the other was to confront/ Trayvon. That showed his intention was to confront Trayvon despite his lying address, walking in the same direction, nonsense.

    • racerrodig says:

      Yep…..that didn’t come out right did it. The good thing is he still, at 12:21 AM on 7/3/2013, doesn’t get it….nor does
      O’ Mara, West, Fogen, Taaffe, Papa, Robbie the Racist…..none of them get it.

    • Xena says:

      GZ actually said that when he was told “We don’t need you to do that,” that he was standing on Retreat View Circle. Keeping that in mind, he also said in the same interview that he wasn’t following Trayvon but going in the same direction. Either Trayvon ran to Retreat View Circle, or GZ ran there to cut Trayvon off from reaching the back gate. Only Trayvon wasn’t going to the back gate, so GZ knew he still had to be down the dog path.

      • willisnewton says:

        As usual GZ is lying. When told “we don’t new you to do that” he was still jogging or fast walking towards the T. Listen to the call and time it. GZ himself insists he was not running. He stopped at the T and banged on his flashlight, then walke to RVC and all the way into the street as he indicated on the map he drew on for singleton.

        • aussie says:

          YEP, all the way into RVC. BUT then he did not turn around and go back to the T. He kept going down RVC, then cut back to the doggie path at the bottom, and that’s how Trayvon got trapped, GZ being between him and Brandi’s house. So he had no way to go but north.

          The “tell them to call me” fits perfectly with the time it would take him to go into a lower cut-through… and HEAR Trayvon talking on the phone.

          It would be all my Christmasses at once, if it turns out they DO have GPS data for his phone.

          • @aussie, I believe you nailed it. Witnesses’ statements harmonize if Fogen walked south down RVC and cut through to the south end of the dog walk.

            GPS data would be excellent to have, but his body language during the walkthrough is also telling. When he wants to divert the investigators’ attention, he seems to intentionally turn his back to avoid looking at the obvious, like the address at Jenna Lauers’ house. In the same way, when they got to RVC, he awkwardly turned his back away from the south leg of the street leading to the back gate and kept talking about the path at the top of the T.

            I’m not a behavioral specialist or anything, and I hope I’m making sense here, but Fogen doing this reminded me of a child who closes his own eyes and says, “You can’t see me.”

        • Nellie Nell says:

          And he was still running, jogging or walking fast for about 10 seconds after being told to stop playing cop evidenced by the wind sound. That is when the knocking sounds pick up. MOM asked Sean if that knocking could be GZ banging on his flashlight. If he was not in the dark searching for Trayvon, he would not need a flashlight.

          GZ said something about having light there and a few minutes later he was afraid to cross back over because it was dark there. He is a poor liar and refuse to think before he speaks.

          Just my thought.

      • Eric says:

        I still don’t believe that Zimmerman went to RVC like he said. It doesn’t make sense. Zimmerman saw Martin cut down the dog path going south, so, why would Zimmerman run east? It makes much more sense for Zimmerman, who was on TTL, to run down that street in order to catch Trayvon. Zimmermans story about walking over to RVC is his cover. Zimmerman is trying to place himself as far away from Martin as possible so he won’t look like the aggressor in hot pursuit.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          I don’t believe he went to RVC either. That is just another one of his lies to make it appear that he was doing nothing wrong. MOM is saying the same thing that GZ supporters have been saying for over 1 year, that it is not illegal to follow someone. But GZ did more than that. When he confronted the kid with the aggressive “What are you doing around here?” and then I think he tackled Travon to the ground which is why Rachel heard the thump and then grass sounds. That is also how he got his punctate on his head. Once Trayvon started screaming for help, GZ got scared because he was in the wrong so he silenced the kid forever. He was looking at a crime with a pistol and he knew he’d be in trouble and finally nabbed for all his past aggressions. Being the criminal justice student, he knew exactly what he needed to say for “justifiable homicide” as he put it, but he did not think the evidence would tell a different tale.

        • Cercando Luce says:

          I agree with you– he ran down TTL to get ahead of his quarry, and then cut through. He knew he wouldn’t get ahead of Trayvon if he went to RVC first.

  21. Judy A Vallejos says:

    yep see that he is supposed to be on there….hmmmm….can that be allowed during trial?

  22. Puck says:

    I think GZ smacked himself upside the head a bit while he was in the station bathroom cleaning up, three or four hours before the photos were taken.

  23. racerrodig says:

    More crap from the wild world of Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe. On HLN the subject was brought up why cac never identified himself to Trayvon. Taaffe said there was no time. One commentator said he had several opportunities and in fact cac stated this in one of his police interviews.

    We know this to be a fact…it’s recorded.

    Taaffe says he never said that and because the attack was so sudden cac had no chance to tell Trayvon who he was.

    This is the pathetic mentality we have to deal with. It comes back to what I’ve said a thousand times about The Zidiot Nation…..

    “I just wish they’d make up their minds”

    • franks next TV program will be a reality show…

      “Castaway on a deserted shark infested Island”


      • Sabrina B. says:

        And a bunch of natives.

        • racerrodig says:

          I can see the trailer now…..

          “…and watch as Frank tries to evade the young black male natives….yes, and all of them former ball players. Watch as Frank dodges all the vicious attacks……the thrills as they stand in his yard !!”

          “Marvel at them walking in the rain…..just walking about… training….just walking about”

          “Watch and listen as Frank retells his stories……every version a new adventure”

          “Watch as he nearly has a stroke while talking over everyone !!”

          “You saw the book….now read the movie……Frank “The Racist Tank” in all his glory……shades of 007 in “The man with the Golden Gun” as he goes against the those who seek him”

          “See Rene Stutzman quote his every word and analyze his every move”

      • Sabrina B. says:

        Well, add a bunch of natives and I’d watch as they throw him to the sharks,

      • ic2fools says:

        @mmp ,this is so funny i have to re-post. i just read a site has a donate button to dismiss fogens’ case and sue Angela Corey.

        my question is:

        What law firm will sue States’ Attoney Angela Corey, Florida Fourth Judicial Circuit Court?

        ‘DitchHer, Quick and Hyde, LLP


        Crazy Azz Mr. Cracker, Justa Cracker & Salty O. Cracker, CTH, LLP


    • kllypyn says:

      He had plenty of time to identify himself and he knows it ,so does taaft

    • Xena says:

      Did you hear Frank answer the question about where Trayvon’s body was with his hands underneath? Well, Taaffe said that after GZ got off his back, Trayvon crawled there and being in pain, grabbed his chest.

      The moderator reminded Taaffe that GZ never said that. So now expect O’Mara to ask a witness, “Is it possible that Trayvon crawled to where his body was found, and put his hands underneath him after he was shot?”

  24. Puck says:

    *as* in, no “it’s possible” …

  25. Puck says:

    I only really grasped the importance of the bullet casing recently. If Zimmerman had been underneath Trayvon when he fired, there’s no possible way — and in, no “it’s possible” can be elicited by O’Mara — that the casing would have been found where it was, based on the position of Trayvon’s body. It’s physically impossible. Had GZ been underneath when he fired, the casing would have been found close to where his torso would have been and slightly to the right. It was found closer to the sidewalk, where it could only have traveled if GZ was on top or standing.

    Gilbreath meant what he said. This at once eliminates self-defense, since GZ could not possibly have been underneath Trayvon, therefore having the advantage, and then proves second-degree murder because in a superior position, he had no need to shoot but he did, because as Guy said in the opening statement, he wanted to.

    …and the proponderance of evidence that the rest of GZ’s story is made up, including the scientific evidence still to come. Case closed. Slam dunk.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Thanks for this. I have been wondering about the shell casing and how it landed standing on end in the mud. It will be interesting to see what BDLR does with it,

      • willisnewton says:

        The shell casing is around 40 feet from the T. GZ claimed four times he was struck by the T and fell BACKWARDS immediately. That’s the significance – his “stumbling” is self serving and inconsistent bullshit.

    • willisnewton says:

      Disagree. The casing very likely could have flown a dozen places including into the folds of TMs clothing and moved when he was moved. It was not found until the body was removed to the ME’s office.

      Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.

      • Puck says:

        Moved as far as this? Not likely, let alone “very” likely.

        It wouldn’t have moved there from Trayvon’s body being rolled.

  26. Xena says:

    A very uplifting way to conclude today’s proceedings with a joyful recap.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I love this man! He knows boxing history!

      I remember that Sugar Ray Leonard/Roberto Duran fight.

      Please let us know if this man is makes anymore Youtube videos.

      Also, was it just me, but at first I thought he was driving a bus when he made this video, until he put his hands up. It must be the angle. LOL!!!!

      Well BDLR I hope you “float like a butterfly and sting like a bee”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Great video and very uplifting!

    • HereslookingatYou says:

      Love this guy…
      DOWN goes ZIMMERMAN yeah you go boy.

  27. Judy A Vallejos says:

    no mention of o im an ass thus far

  28. Judy A Vallejos says:

    and that stupid “burglary tool” they all think they found days later hahahaha was a piece of awning from one of the town homes and what kinda police investigation is/was this anyway if they only found the damn thing days later????

    • racerrodig says:

      It was behind Manolo’s house I believe they said and today is the 1st time it’s mentioned.

      Hey……I know……..Taaffe planted it there……yeah !! that’s the ticket !!!!!

      • Xena says:

        That’s why Zidiots were saying earlier this year that Trayvon was looking for cars to break into. The Zimmermans and their buds were really busy starting and spreading that around because that info could have only come from O’Mara or West to them.

    • Woow! says:

      MOM got that from the Treepers. His whole case is document in the comments by those nuts. MOM should be ashamed.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Wonder if the crime scene tape was still up and the crime scene protected 4 days later? Ummm, don’t think so.

      I’m surprised all they found was a piece of awning — seems like two of the Stooges, MO and Taafy, would have planted a large brick, a screwdriver, fake jewelry, an anvil, and a cartoony striped shirt and black mask that cat burglars wear. Oh, and a big black bag with white-lettered “LOOT” stenciled on the side.

  29. Judy A Vallejos says:

    lol as I tune in to nancy show she is saying she still looking for the darn bushes Trayvon came out of supposedly LOL

  30. Woow! says:

    I don’t think CAC realize that his trial in not going in his favor. Remember that smirk on his face after the jury viewed his Hannity interview.

  31. jo says:

    MOM is going to be on nancy grace….is that allowed in the middle of a trial?

  32. Woow! says:

    When Mark Osterman testified today, MOM asked him if he was at the police station with CAC as a friend or as law enforcement and he replied both.

    When did the local law enforcement start working in conjunction with federal air marshalls on murder cases? Osterman just put his career on the line with that statement. The Air Marshall services want those guys to keep a low profile and he is all over the news and stated live that he is an AM.

  33. jo says:

    can’t remember, did osterman tell when they moved gz’s car

  34. disappointed says:

    If fogen told osterfool that Trayvon came at him from 15 feet away why did he not run to his truck? Why did fogen not swing flashlight to keep Trayvon back? Is this a problem? I never heard the 15 feet away. That is a decent distance to run imo.

  35. Judy A Vallejos says:

    I saw a quote somewhere today skipping around here on the internet that zimmerass said one of the reasons he thought Trayvon was suspect is because he wasn’t trying to get out of the rain “quickly” enough and that it was dark.

    Just who was bothered that night by the rain? and the darkness? and who is to say how quickly someone should have to be moving about in their neighborhood whether it is raining or not?

    And who appointed this asshole the job of making the decision on that? I am so disgusted with O my im an ass and that west guy. I hope the jury likes him as little as I do…

    Hoodies up!!!

    • disappointed says:

      Judy if Trayvon was suspicious for being in the rain what was Fogen? He stood in the rain for at least 84 seconds according to detective serino. From the walk through to hanging up with NEN. Guess it’s okay for him because he is crime watch. PUKE! He is total idiot.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I think that his another Zimmerman lie. The reason I think this is because in the Hannity interview Zimmerman said that Trayvon didn’t look like someone caught in the ran trying to get their mail. Rachel said that Trayvon told her that he was under the mail kiosk. I have long felt that Zimmerman saw Trayvon at the mail kiosk.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Skipping around on the internet?

      • Judy A Vallejos says:

        yes I read around a lot on the internet. I like to read. it just makes me mad that zimmerass said that Trayvon wasn’t trying to get outta the rain “quickly” enough. just who the the hell is he to say how quickly someone should be doing anything at all I wondered when I saw that.

        I have said before also, as a truck driver when ever I was talking to my kids or friends on the phone if the signal dropped I would stop moving around when I got the connection back so I would not lose it again. I still would do that now. Trayvon was on the phone with Rachel and the signal kept going in and out so it did not make me think any thing of the leisurely way Trayvon was moving around in the rain. or that he had stopped for a few minutes.

        I been down there to florida several times and really I don’t think it would have been that cold and the rain does come and go down there. I have seen it rain buckets and buckets where you could not even see the road but I don’t think that was the case that night. and it was not late either. 7pm is not late for heavens sakes. so it just made me mad that zimmerass said anything at all about quickly enough. like he has the say so for all who live there?

        • Judy75201 says:


        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          It’s that hurry Sundown mentality.

        • @Judy:

          LOL @ ZImmerASS?? BAHAAAAA! I have read so many variations of Fogen’s name but this one takes the case! LMAO! Trayvon was under the mail kiosk, and he also walked thruough another complex to get there. The same complex where his sister resides.

          Our very own LLMPapa produced a wonderful and outstanding video on this. Up unitl his video, I had not known this either, and I also read Rachel’s note in which she state Travyon told her what he was doing. How would she have known about the mail kiosk? She has never been to Sanford. Fogen’s sister called him or he called her, and told him. Once they release the phone records, we will all find out, along with his e-mails and text messages.

  36. racerrodig says:

    With Fogens 204 lbs and Trayvon’s 158 lbs all on the holster & gun, I’d like to know where is the grass & dirt that had to be on it according to Fogen’s / Osterman’s / Taaffe’s telling of this tale.

    A simple question I’ve posed before.

    • disappointed says:

      Thee Gun is a magical thing. :/

    • Rob says:

      Racer i’ve asked that question many times with no response

    • Rob says:

      The gun was already out that’s why there’s no dirt on the gun and Trayvon started screaming because he saw the gun

      • racerrodig says:

        BINGO !!!!! That is the only possibility. I have tried to reenact this many times with friends and my son who is now exactly Trayvon’s size and weight. It cannot be done.

      • MedicineBear says:

        YES! And CAC pulled the trigger as soon as Trayvon’s screams attracted the attention of a resident (John Good). CAC had to terminally shut up Trayvon so he wouldn’t get charged with brandishing his weapon and detaining/assaulting a kid. GZ KNEW his chances were better to kill and walk free claiming SYG than if the kid remained alive and told the police on CAC.

  37. Woow! says:

    Taaffee says CAC first saw standing under a tree in his yard.

    Did you guys see this Greta Van Sustern?sp interview. I don’t watch Fox.

    • disappointed says:

      When Fogen did the video re-enactment he claimed that too. However I thought the map put Trayvon closer to the clubhouse. At this point I have no clue where Fogen first saw Trayvon. Lied so many damn times I have lost count.

    • jo says:

      hahaha oh fuck me that was funny….how did greta keep a straight face when taffe was laying on the ground pretending to be poor george …….grown ass man in a pink shirt laying on the grass with his head on the concrete….

  38. KateW says:

    We were sitting around having a conversation and we can’t understand how Marissa Alexander got 30 years in FL and had not killed anyone, and this guy is walking the streets after murdering a 17 year old boy. Something is seriously wrong with the state of FL.

  39. colin black says:

    treeper jeeper creeper wher you get them black peepers assaulted by BLAHCK RIOTERS

    Ah la Rodney King you friggin muppets.


    Bit of a winter at the moment but I digress
    The Last social unrest in America the Ocuppy movement

    Wan mainly whit middle class white an black students an poor people of all colour an creeds .

    Raceial an Civil unrest are not Siamese twins ffs.

    The last an most devastating riots in the UK were in the 90s poll ax rioys .

    Wish the youth off today had it in them to rioit for a cause an not for stealing flatscreens an addias trainers.

    And of courde The Recent Riots in London initaly allegedly sparked by a police shooting an un armed Black Man after a car chase

    He was found to be unarmed.

    However the rioting that sprung up an spread was just


    By bored teens as opposed to civil unrest an again Mostly white teens though of course other ethnicitys were affected

    Ansihk Indian Man lost his life beaten stabbed by loooters white rioters in the UH K


  40. willisnewton says:

    Any bets on whether GZ will testify ? BDLR is locking him into his poorly crafted false narrative rife with contradictions – does George think he can talk his way out?

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I don’t think he will. He is quite comfortable with others cleaning up his messes for him. He doesn’t mind speaking to get into the messes but, when he steps in it, he sits back and lets others shovel his sheet.

      • racerrodig says:

        Sabrina B. you have it nailed

        He may even be thinking OsterPhoole testified for him today, OsterPhoole thinks he testified for him today, and the State is glad he testified for him today.

        It’s real simple.

      • Tzar says:

        I don’t know
        1. this is the guy who called Angela Corey directly to explain his “side of the story”
        2. Did you see his life coach aka the human geiser aka i dont curse in front of ladies up, on the stand yesterday, these believe they are slick and smarter than everyone else in direct proportion to the degree that they are not. (truly sublime)

        He just may be full of himself enough to get in the box
        I’m guessing
        1. he will wink at O’Mara on his way to the stand, “let m show you how it’s done.

        2. Don West will be the last witness called by the defense to testify about how polite Zimmerman has been to his attorneys and how they were never thirsty when he was around.

    • Fogen has the same “I’m smarter than Einstein” personality that Jodi Arias had, despite his 0.05 GPA. Of course he thinks he can talk his way out it. I really hope he tries.

      “BDLR is locking him into his poorly crafted false narrative rife with contradictions”

      Regardless of what BDLR does, I don’t think O’Mara would ever under any circumstances recommend Fogen take the stand-his testimony would only hurt the defense. Though, because Fogen probably thinks he’s smarter than O’Mara, he might actually wobble his fat a$$ on the stand and convict himself.

  41. Rob says:

    Vinnie on hln is doing Trayvon justice about how could he have seen the gun if Trayvon was on top with his knees on the side of fogen

  42. Woow! says:

    Lastly there is a big ole donate button for those who wish for Zimmerman case to get dismissed and CAC get set free to sue the state of Florida and Angela Corey…

    • Nef05 says:

      Which they have no way of actually accomplishing, so all the donations go into their own pockets. I guess they figure if it worked for fogen, why not jump on the wagon and have their own begsite for the racists. smh

      • Woow! says:

        Yep, his parents were the first to realize that killing an innocent black child is a cash cow setting up their beg site; the Osterman with his book, now everyone is trying to get money while they can.

        I wonder if Taaffe is getting paid to give interviews.

        • racerrodig says:

          OsterPhoole’s sold 17 books……and one is in evidence so in effect he’s sold 16. I could sell more books about my street racing ventures……

        • Soulcatcher says:

          If you notice on a couple of media sites, I picked a new user name because of all the racist posts, begging ect. I post their under the name of Cash4Trash.

    • ic2fools says:

      What law firm will sue States’ Attoney Angela Corey, Florida Fourth Judicial Circuit Court?

      ‘DitchHer, Quick and Hyde, LLP


      Crazy Azz Mr. Cracker, Justa Cracker & Salty O. Cracker, CTH, LLP


  43. Woow! says:

    Here is the so called indictment.

    Click to access 130701-scan0244.pdf

  44. Woow! says:

    Here is a link to the citizens grand jury the supposedly indicted Angela Corey. These people have no shame. Racism oozes out of every orifice

    Larry Klayman, founder of Judicial Watch and Freedom Watch, is known for his strong public interest advocacy in furtherance of ethics in government and individual freedoms and liberties…………….

    Larry has been credited as being the inspiration for the Tea Party movement. (See “Larry Klayman — The One Man TEA Party,”

    • Xena says:

      Citizens Grand Juries is a creation of sovereign citizens, who are an extension of White Supremacists. In either late 2008 or early 2009, they “indicted” Barack Obama for not being a “natural born” U.S. Citizen and declared he was not President of the U.S.

  45. Judy75201 says:

    I think the best thing BDLR could do would be to simply object to compound questions from O’Mara/West. It’s too easy to evoke a “yes” when the last part of the question is true, but the first part is not in evidence. They both do this a lot.

  46. colin black says:

    You all have thoughtful comments says:

    July 2, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    May God bless you, Leisa, and make your transition gentle and peaceful.

    I send you my love and hugs.


    You all have thoughtful comments says:

    July 2, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    I just wanted to come back, Leisa, and say Thank You for touching our lives with your goodness!


    colin black says:

    July 2, 2013 at 9:08 pm

    Leisa . the true of heart an soul always find peace.

    Release witness wonders to never cease only increase.

    As your soul soars never to taste defeat as your heart always had a true an worthy beat.

    In this youl know an come to meet your saviour whomer will be there to greet.

    And I must stop now as Im GREETING =crying for real.

    bless you.


  47. willisnewton says:

    Osterman today confirmed the car to pedestrian chase. BDLR doesn’t highlight it. WTF?

    The aggression began when GZ moved his car behind Trayvon, who had just had the temerity to walk past him, the creepy guy who was staring at him from a car as the teen waited out the rain under the mail kiosk.

    BDLR entered into evidence the clubhouse video clips that showed GZ passing the kitchen window SLOWLY, mush more slowly than any other car passes, ever as seen in all of the footage put into evidence.

    He also entered into evidence a clip showing GZ’s car trolling the mail kiosk slowly before driving away towards the cut thru.

    He has not YET entered the NEXT clip that seems to show that same car driving down past w11’s house and then possibly the same car returning to FACE the mail kiosk from aprox the same position that GZ drew on Singleton’s map. It’s the ONLY car in the general vicinity at the time of the NEN call, even if you shift the timestamp of the videos a minute in either direction.

    It’s killing me to wait and see if he connects these elements and proves the car-to-pedestrian chase. Surely the FDLE has someone who can put two and two together.

    I suspect Serino is a bit miffed that the investigation was taken away from him, and has not been consulted much and is resentful about this, explaining some of his attitude. It seems he may be thinking, “all right, let’s see what you guys can do with a guy who killed the only witness.” But Serino knew there was something fishy about the timeline GZ gave them, and he waited to be asked about it (as it was all he could do – he’s not the one asking the questions.)

    It’s important to note that GZ NEVER NEVER NEVER offered to SPD the information that Trayvon ran away from him/ from his car, and instead tried to present the tale in a manner that completely skipped that telling detail. But for the NEN call recording, and GZ saying “he’s running” the SPD, and by extension WE, would have never known that Trayvon ran (but for the words of Racheal J.)

    George worked hard to craft his false narrative but he can’t escape the space time continuum. He, and Trayvon HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE during the NEN call recording, and each of GZ’s half assed explanations are impossible to reconcile with the timing of a moving person, in a car or on foot.

    The car to pedestrian chase EXPLAINS the nature of GZ’s contradictions, omissions and obfuscations. It WHAT he was lying to hide.

    If BDLR doesn’t eventually explain this, then his investigation missed the elephant in the room, in my opinion.

    I’d worry that my harping on this is giving away the prosecution strategy, but there is no defense from the truth that’s plain to see, and there is no way to ignore the laws of physics.

    My hunch is that someone from FDLE will be called to present this material and claim all the credit for “solving” the case. Again this is a bit of a turf war being played out, but they deserve the credit if they followed the clues that we all had, and they deserve even more credit if they figured it out before Rachel J handed it all to them on a silver platter.

    Rachel, Osterman, Don West (what an idiot) and the videos have all brushed on this topic in open court. Singleton carefully explained the markings on the map GZ drew showing his lies about where he parked, and his accidental telling of the truth which he quickly amended to an impossible lie. It’s all there like a trap waiting to be sprung.

    Bernie needs to bring it all home.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Just want to let you know I have read your excellent post, Willis!

    • Nef05 says:

      But Serino knew there was something fishy about the timeline GZ gave them, and he waited to be asked about it (as it was all he could do – he’s not the one asking the questions.)

      I was wondering what else he wanted to say when BDLR asked him if he thought fogen exaggerated his injuries. Serino said something like *among other things* and it appeared that he either wanted to say “if not outright lying about them” OR “that’s not the only thing I think he ‘exaggerated’ about”.

      BDLR said I can’t lead you, I can only ask…

      I think it was on re re direct and BDLR was very limited in what he could ask. But it did appear as if there was some other info Serino wanted to share. He’s still under subpoena. So perhaps they can call him back, during the forensic presentation. Wait, didn’t JN tell O’Mara to call Serino back to ask him something BDLR objected to? If he does BDLR will get to cross.

    • unabogie says:

      I don’t understand your theory. Can you explain it to us?

    • aussie says:

      Absolutely sure they’ve been reading the blogs. If not before, then after that article about the bloggers in this case.

      Let them have the credit if they want it. As long as they present the evidence.

      Let’s think of the poor jury who is on tenterhooks waiting for “what’s going to happen next?” while we are going “why didn’t they show THIS or THAT yet?”

      A trial is a jigsaw puzzle. The jury has to watch it put together, from little pieces brought in by the witnesses. We’re cheating, we looked at the the picture on the box a year ago, we know where the pieces go.

    • Tzar says:

      another excellent post

  48. Judy75201 says:

    How on earth did fogen get boo-boos to the top of his head. Did Trayvon pick him up, turn him upside down, and smash it into the concrete? The absurdity is overwhelming.

    And, isn’t anything fogen says that Trayvon said hearsay?

  49. Rob says:

    What happened today is just the tip of the iceburg for the state we still have forensics, text messagess and phone records and last of all Ms. Fulton. Fogen can stick a fork in it because he’s done.

  50. diary73 says:

    Reported from the end of the previous thread:

    Great news. I entered my name in the lottery to attend the trial tomorrow. Well, they called me back! She said I am not to use my iPad or iPhone, so will try to take good notes.

    • jo says:

      woot woot!!!!

      • disappointed says:

        Congrats! We will be anxiously awaiting the notes. Do NOT do anything to West that we wouldn’t do! haha

        • disappointed says:

          p.s. try to wave at us if you get the chance. 😉

          • diary73 says:

            I plan to wear a floral top with brilliant pink, red, yellow and green with a black sham over it and a black skirt. I will try to sit on Trayvon’s side.

            I am in my early 50s with tan skin and curly hair, and I wear glasses.

            I won’t draw attention by waving, but just know that I will take our collective heart into the courtroom. JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!

          • Rachael says:

            Please watch the jury for me some and let me know how they look like they’re taking it in. And I doubt if you will be able to, but give Sybrina a big hug from me and all of us.

            Yes, JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!!

    • Nef05 says:

      Excellent! Look forward to your perspective and notes.

    • ZCBest says:


    • Xena says:

      @diary73. Congrats. You can do the Carol Burnett thing and pull the bottom of your ear to say “hi” to us. If you get a chance to speak to Sybrina and Tracy, please let them know we love and are praying for them.

    • Sophia33 says:


      Hey speaking of…wasn’t someone else from this blog at the trial today?

    • racerrodig says:

      If you get close enough tell Trayvon’s parents we’re with them all the way, Send our love…please !!

    • fauxmccoy says:


      yeeeeehaw! wave to the camera for us 🙂 can’t wait to hear about the experience!

    • ic2fools says:

      Alright dairy73!

      we’ll be looking forward to hearing from you. just read how you will dress. i’m looking forward to seeing you. geez i hope you don’t have to sit ‘on that side’ that would be gosh awful feeling being close to sparky and the gang.

      oh yes,diary73 we know you’ll relay great notes you can count on that..

      to know you will represent all of us tomorrow has left me speechless.

  51. disappointed says:

    I am watching Dr Drew Mark is hosting. Mark asked an attorney if he would let his client do the Sean Hannity show he said Hell No that was felony stupid!

  52. jo says:

    wow an intelligent article on fox news….it’s actually not biased….this poor guy probably wont last for long

  53. Puck says:

    Here are some words of encouragement to those who waver in their faith of the prosecution:

    We know this case inside-out. We know the facts and the evidence. We’ve seen the forensics. We’ve pretty much figured out what happened last night; it’s gotten clearer and clearer as the months have gone by and we continue our conjecture and discussion, and our analysis.

    So far, what I’ve seen the State do is pursue the most important aspects of the case, and many smaller ones, with the same evidence we’ve been looking at and with the same thinking we’ve been doing. Their conclusions tend to match ours. It’s being done methodically and according to a defined strategy, but basically it’s most of the stuff we’ve been confident of for months now — confident would likely lead to a conviction on second degree murder. We’re even in general consensus as to which elements establish depraved mind, ill-will, spitred, hate, and so on.

    The case the prosecution is laying out is, for all intents and purposes, the same case we’ve been cobbling together here for over a year. Have faith that they will continue in this vein.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Maybe she “withheld” the photo-shopped pic lol.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Oh crap,lol. This is a conspiracy group. Sheesh.

      “In the United States, a citizen grand jury is a non-actionable, non-governmental organization that assumes a responsibility upon itself to accuse an individual or groups of individuals of having committed actionable crimes, in a similar aim as that of official grand juries. Such organizations have been organized by those who espouse conspiracy theories regarding certain events or the individuals who are accused by the citizen grand jury, and most citizen grand jury applications to official judiciary systems at the federal, state, or local and municipal level tend to be thrown out for lack of evidence.”

      • jo says:

        haha i wonder why i couldn’t see it on any mainstream sites when i searched…..what a bunch of idiots…thanks judy

      • Woow! says:

        I posted their nutting indictment further down the page. Geewiz nutcases are sane compared to those folks.

      • aussie says:

        Otherwise known as a Kangaroo Court. Or idiots playing
        childish games.

        Trouble is the real State lets them have guns.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think that was not a real grand jury. It is a organization called “”

    • Judy75201 says:

      I’m curious. Where do you get your news feeds from?

    • PYorck says:

      Yes and no. That “citizens’ grand jury” is just a bunch of guys and it has no legal meaning. It is also a press release and not real news.

    • Woow! says:

      Woow bigots will try anything to get that CAC off.

    • Malisha says:

      “indicted by a citizens grand jury” — do you know what that means? A “grand jury” composed and self-appointed by “Sovereign Citizens.” This is their little theater production. They like to play-act just like Fogen did. Fogen play-acted a cop doing a “good shoot” like on TV. Now the Sovereign Citizens are play-acting a grand jury. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @jo — no, there is no legitimate indictment. no such ‘citizens grand jury’ exists within the realm of our judicial system. this is a product of pure bigot imagination.

  54. Michael Stewart says:

    Fogen tells Hannity why he wanted the first responding police unit to call him for his location.

    HANNITY: Why did you want them at that point to call you?

    ZIMMERMAN: I hadn’t given them a correct address. I gave them a — the clubhouse vicinity. However, I was walking through to my street, Retreat View Circle, and I was going to give them the actual street number and name.

    However, in his February 29, 2012 interview with Det. Serino, fogen said that he had obtained an address from Retreat View Circle and was walking back to his vehicle while he was still on the phone with NEN. This prompted many of us to ask why he didn’t give the address to dispatch before hanging up ?

    And this is just one of the sloppily crafted cover stories that BDLR has yet to drill down on.

    • Judy75201 says:

      The drilling has only begun. This is gonna be one painful root-canal for fogen.

    • racerrodig says:

      His address bs is like this…….

      I wanted to get an accurate address so I could tell them where this kid WASN’T, and have them call me because…………I’ll still be out on the hunt.

      Plain & Simple.

    • Malisha says:

      Why didn’t he give the address as soon as he saw it, in view of the fact that he has such a poor memory. By the time he was ready to give it to the police, he’d have forgotten it again and would give them his own wrong address or Taaffe’s wrong address. Then the police would be hopelessly running around in circles like the Keystone Kops leaving only Fogen to kill kids in defense of his victimized neighborhood.

  55. John D says:

    The prosecution’s case is so unbelievably strong. Just like Professor says, today was a huge day for the prosecution. I’m thinking maybe they should even rest their case. Zimmerman is in big, big trouble. Hoodies up!

  56. Ty Flair says:

    Remember folks they got fogen on video at the club house he is out of his truck and he peak inside this building you can see his face for a second. Why was he walking around for.

    • Judy75201 says:


      • Ty Flair says:

        Watch those videos,on one video you can see fogen look inside the club house it’s only a second the video inside the club house caught him. That’s why the State had call the person who own those video,he wanted to let the jurors understand the time stamp on those videos.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Have you seen these still photos from the excellent work that Whonoze accomplished in his video?

    • willisnewton says:

      i don’t subscribe to the “face in the window” theory.

      However the movements of his car are quite obvious, easy to see once you acquaint yourself with the nature of the video and the best presentation of the material is the video by whonoze.

      His entire narrative of how he traveled from clubhouse to cut thru area is brought into sharp relief when you see the videos and it serves to explain the reason for his contradictory and impossible statements. He worked to obscure and omit the car to pesestrian chase, the reason trayvon ran away – an actrivity he always left out of his accounts unless prompted specifically, when he never seems to have a suitable answer.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I agree about the face in the window thingy. Why on earth would he look in there? It’s too “ufo” for me.

  57. chi1224 says:

    I just got done reading some “mainstream” news… for about 30 mins, and all I can say is THANK GOD for this place of sanity. I am so disturbed by what I see out there, it HAS to be some kind of media driven illusion… it just has to be… otherwise mankind is truly fucked. I don’t know any other way to say it.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Probably just reflects the slant of owners who “run” the news outlets.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Ah, it’s the end of another long and sometimes extremely frustrating day.
      Just add a pinch of salt, try to get some rest.
      Tomorrow’s another day and we’ll be
      Hoodies Up, once again.

  58. mrsdoubtfire says:

    Yep a strong day for the State. I admit I’m a happier camper than I was yesterday. Glad to finally hear someone say out loud and with conviction that Z’s injuries were “insignificant”. That lady was good and she withstood the O’Mara treatment exceptionally well. I was also happy to hear BDLR ask Serino if he (paraphrasing) had evidence of “something going on behind the Bahador house.” Anyone else catch that? Selene Bahador is an important State witness and she was treated very shabbily by O’Mara. I felt so bad for her. Also looks like JN is going to let the State present Z’s “specialised” (rolls eyes) knowledge about SYG and the laws of self defence . Yep good to see O’Mara’s knickers in a twist.

  59. Tee says:

    I just decided not to watch any television coverage of this trail. It sickens me how people can defend a grown behind man that killed a kid that only had snacks on him whom was on the phone talking at the moment of the confrontation. I would love for these same people to say if it was their child that they would feel the same. I tell you what if It was my child I would turn hell over before I allow this to play out as some self defense crap. Running behind a kid that has ran from you , then say he tried to kill me! Gz is real lucky that it happened like it did, because had Trayvon made it home and his father was there GZ family would be on the other side of the courtroom.

    • elle says:

      Tee, I absolutely do not watch the media about this case. I have read the evidence. The Professor works so hard to teach us what we need to know about trial. There is nothing I need from the media. They are so often wrong. And, I could never have maintained the grace Trayvon’s parents have, I would be a hysterical screaming mess. Every time they lied about my baby I would lose it again. Tracey Martin and Sybrina Fulton have my deepest respect.

    • ZCBest says:

      Hey Tee. Well I just checked the polls on HLN and it seems as thought support for Trayvon is at an all time high. The majority of people who voted say that GZ was the agressor and Trayvon did not reach for the gun.

      Slowly but surely the tide will turn.

  60. breelee says:

    Prof, thank you so much for a safe place to show love to Trayvon and his loved ones. Your post today made my heart do a jump, learning that all could be lost over the slip of the tongue. I’m shocked fogen could be set free over such a small thing, and hope our guys are super careful.

    What I don’t understand, is MOM being able to break this deal with seemingly no backlash. I’m learning there’s nothing fair about a trial. I’m still angry there is no picture of Trayvon set out for the jury and all to see that this is about a young boy, not a nobody. We’ve seen the boo-boo pictures a million times, but nothing but horrible pictures of our Trayvon. Why isn’t there one out?

    He was a living, breathing just turned 17 year old and very loved, he NEEDS to be represented with at least one picture. Those women need reminded every single minute that his short life was stolen from him. Its bad enough the defense is playing the screams over and over to hurt Tracy and Sabrina and desensitize the jury to those blood curdling screams. Personally, I could hear them everyday for the rest of my life and still cry, but I know some people are heartless. I fear we might have a few on the jury.

    I hope you can tell us why there isn’t one out, it breaks my heart. Again thank you and every poster here, I get so depressed and you’all keep my hopes up.

  61. Nef05 says:

    Okay, WHO made the “it’s ‘possible’ little green men came from Mars” about fogen’s wounds, ’cause Nancy Grace just used it on TV.

    • Nef05 says:

      And she just told Taaffe that he’s “bass ackwards”. I’m starting to like this. Any time someone goes off on Taaffe is a good time. I might just make a cocktail! 😀

    • cielo62 says:

      Nef05- honestly: who hasn’t? 😉


    • aussie says:

      Someone on bcclist ages ago said something about a dodo (?) some kind of large bird falling out of the sky; also something abut the moon falling down. Martians I don’t recall about, perhaps it was some other blog. Perhaps she made it up. I can’t remember, I have a bad memory.

      • Malisha says:

        Aussie, I had said it was possible a helicopter dropped an ostrich at RTL and that ostrich had confused Fogen and then run off leaving not a feather, but I wasn’t on bcclist so I don’t know if that’s what you’re referring to. I believe the ostrich was orange.

    • Rachael says:

      So you mean someone might be laughing at him harder than us?

    • crazy1946 says:

      I found this comment to be disturbing at best!
      ” Boy I sure hope Zimmerman gets off so I sit back and laugh when riots break out…….Zimmerman is guilty of something, but who cares, I want to see riots in the streets and multiple deaths !!!!”
      What kind of human trash would make a comment like that?

      • Rachael says:

        What I have to say isn’t particularly enlightening either, but here it goes:

        As bad as that is, I’ve seen worse.

        I love my son with all my heart and all my soul. But I didn’t have a child so I could bring him into a world like this. And sometimes I cry at night because he loves being a daddy so much but his babies are only 1 and 3. I don’t want him to have to cry for his babies the way I do. It breaks my heart. This is not the world I want for my child, not what I want for my granddaughters. But it is there – and the scary part is, being PC has driven it underground and onto computers. The person who wrote that could be my next door neighbor – the one who smiles at me and gives my granddaughters cookies when they come to visit, but late at night on their computer…

        • crazy1946 says:

          You see me somewhere I seldom are, totally speechless at the attitude exhibited by people like that from the safety of their home hiding behind the keyboard on their computer! With that, it’s time to leave here for now, and drink another pot of coffee, sure wish someone would give me a recipe for baked coffee so I did not have to make so many pots a day! Wish you had not mentioned cookies, now I want one!!

          • aussie says:

            Shop near me sells coffee bread. Delicious. Not cake, real bread, formed into long rolls, the dough made with strong coffee instead of water. Yum.

        • Judy75201 says:

          Don’t sweat cockroaches like that, Rachael. They are minute, fleeting bits of darwinism.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          I just want you to know that I ache tearfully inside for you.

          These people are scary and unbalanced.

        • aussie says:

          You’re right about the PC, Rachael. It might have been harder on the ears when the racists could use slurs out loud, in public. But at least everyone could know who they were and where they were.

          And the internet is part of it, too. IT has created the global village.

          Olden times (like 30 years ago) your community was where you were physically. The people you met every day as you went about your business. A small number of wrong’uns would be silenced or watered down by the disapproval of the majority.

          Today they can feel strong and safe with the support of others like them everywhere else, a virtual community that encourages and escalates each other’s thoughts and ideas.

          The ‘net is a force for good as well though — the same process has made us HERE a community of the like-minded, though we’re spread out on 6 continents.

          For your granddaughters? you can’t give them a safe WORLD. You can try to find them a safer little corner, a saner corner, and try to see they’re brought up to be cautious without being subserviently fearful. I don’t envy you your task..

      • @Crazy1946:

        What a sick thing to say but I am not surprised at anything anymore! You know on HP some asswipe had the nerve to post that they hope that Fogen gets off, because then they will be even because OJ Simpson got off! Who is “THEY?” I had to cuss that individual out and then I stated did they feel the same way when Casey Anthony, Robert Durst or Robert Blake got off or was their venom only reserved for blacks who murdered whites, especially rich blacks like OJ? What a sick society we are! To wish for riots and for people to die? Does that fool remember Reginald Denny who did nothing to deserve the injuries that were inflicted upon him? Are these people crazy? Do they want a race war? are white racists going to riot if Fogen gets convicted since they are the ones mentioning rioting all of the time?

        I am so grateful to come here to this board for the past few months and vent! I keep my sanity here and I thank you all. Professor, thank you so much and all of the rest of my family here and you all are my family too! I do not watch HLN, CNN or any of the commentators. They are too favorable to Fogen IMO. Good night all. I am tired!

        • Rachael says:

          I know I’ve said it a million times, but for all the talk by GZ supporters of “blacks rioting” if GZ isn’t convicted, I am MUCH more afraid of the GZ supporters if he is.

          They are some scary scary people.

          • Judy75201 says:

            And they are armed to the hilt and some jacked up on meth.

          • @Rachael:

            Happy 4th of July everyone and to you Rachael, A very special Happy 4th! Tears came to my eyes when you spoke of your children and not wanting to bring them into a world like this one with so much hatred, crime and crazy right wingers!

            I had stated the same thing so many years ago, and my Mom said to me this and I will say it to you: Maybe one of your children or grand-children will be the next MLK, Malcolm X, Robert Kennedy Jr. JFK, Gandhi, Corretta Scott King, Betty Shabazz, Fannie Lou Hamer,Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Barak Obama, Michelle Obama, Elenore Roosevelt, and so many more people that I cannot even name who set about to change this world in a positive way, throught their spirit, courage and bravery and their tenacity to fight for change in this world.

          • cielo62 says:

            Deborah P. & Racheal~

            I hope this embeds:

            I love this song.


        • crazy1946 says:

          Good night, sleep well……

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This guy sounds like a bozo in some hate militia. He probably has very low self esteem and gets his fuzzies from the other members in his militia.

        The problem is that these militias are a danger to our society.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I want to drop off three words from my last sentence and have it read instead:

          *These militias are a danger to our society.”

      • Malisha says:

        What kind of human trash would make a comment like that?

        His kind.

    • Girlp says:

      Oh, that idot again…he did this a couple of months ago, I guess when no one paid attention he did it again… He’s a joke.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      omg — sundance hit the big time. cannot wait to read. salon is on my daily reading list (but this blog and trial have been quite time consuming). thanks!

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Those people are completely irrational. How does graffiti and a tool that “could” be used in a burglary show a propensity towards violence? It’s really ridiculous.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Because Trayvon was a black boy. Makes perfect sense to these “christian” racists.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep, the ones who forgot the Commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” not to mention one Fogen can’t seem to grasp “Thou shalt not kill”

      • hotheadpaisen says:

        The same way O’Mara turned a broken scrap of an awning into a “slim jim”, and implied Trayvon stashed it there. I was amazed Bernie didn’t object at that ridiculousness.

    • Malisha says:

      OMG Sundance Asscracker is so not ready for prime time. Jewelry in the backpack — how very violent. Didn’t they realize that by not arresting him for unstolen jewelry in a backpack, they were doing a disservice to Fogen who later was forced to kill him? OMG have mercy.

  62. dezi291 says:

    I wonder if the State will call the ex police officer who said the defendant was overly interested in him shooting a blk teen? Also, the defendant wrote a note in his phone thanking the female officer for helping him. Excuse the butt in…

  63. Love Pork Roasts! says:

    What ever happened to the proffer requested by the prosecution regarding the door opened to GZ’s character?

    • Xena says:

      Jenna Lauer is subject to recall.

    • Nef05 says:

      We’re still waiting. The woman who O’Mara questioned and opened that door, is Jenna Lauer. She’s still under subpoena, subject to recall. I’m curious if they will also question her about her trial relevant twitter account that she deleted as soon as the prosecution asked if she was following Robert, Jr. and danced around the question, implying no, without saying it.

      According to some twitter savvy posters here, she was following Robert Jr. They’re pretty smart people. I believe them.

  64. fauxmccoy says:

    i am reading the commentary here today during the hannity interview is sending me into total fits. i’m laughing like a crazy person, kids keep checking on me.

    what an absolutely wonderful group of insightful, smart and funny folks. i’m pleased to be in such grand company.

    • ic2fools says:


      i see the State filed motion for inquire about west. i noticed west was just sitting there today (ismile). after excusing the jury when Judge Deborah asked for counsel at bench west stepped up for a slight minute and turned to review evidence. when counsels and Judge were finished he looked over his shoulder at Judge Deborah and quickly looked away and scurried back to defense table.

      hopefully he’ll sit tomorrow out too, trial moved along rather smoothly with ole’ sparky in time out.

      Click to access Doc-7-2-13–1134-AM-pdf.pdf

      hashtag suggestion #daddidit #dadgotspanked #daddywhy? #dadsbimbo&dimbo,ahahahahaaa!!!

    • dianetrotter says:

      What was most insightful to me, that I didn’t catch when I first heard it, was “the gun.” Notice he talked about Trayvon seeing the gun. Then he went back into the head pounding crap. Hannity had to rope him back in to how Trayvon got “the gun.”

  65. colin black says:


    colin black says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    July 2, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    This was foggagges concern over his righteous

    Kill as his hero mentor an bff m oysterman drove he ab Shelie


    Her husband murdered his son an she wants him punished for saying mo fo to some vauge freibd of foggagges

    Hey SHELlie even if true wich it wasn’t doesn’t match FUCKING KHOONS AN MURDERING A CHILD

    YOU C U Next Tuesday….

    He was so concerned he had a spiritual flash of his victim

    He was thinking in SPANISH

    How many scrapes daddy covered my ass for an them dudes do time am untouchable

    He was tired drifting of thinking of being famous hero

    HOw many times now I broke the law

    Mnnn foggagge tired ponders The Cop ASSAULT UNO ..

    The Girlfreind assault thing no biggeie DUEO

    An now ever so TIRED I offed a BLAKK KID…TREY…Yawn.

    Tray yawn TREAYAWN TRAYVON wonder e where that comes from as he drifsts off to slumber.

    In the back of m oysterman car /vech ich KILL.

    • aussie says:

      “,,,In the back of m oysterman car /vech ich KILL…”


      Colin, I am starting to suspect you are not as dyslexic as you claim to be. You’re just having us on to be able to post jokes like that ;:)

  66. colin black says:

    This was foggagges concern over his righteous

    Kill as his hero mentor an bff m oysterman drove he ab Shelie


    Her husband murdered his son an she wants him punished for saying mo fo to some vauge freibd of foggagges

    Hey SHELlie even if true wich it wasn’t doesn’t match FUCKING KHOONS AN MURDERING A CHILD

    YOU C U Next Tuesday….

    He was so concerned he had a spiritual flash of his victim

    He was thinking in SPANISH

    How many scrapes daddy covered my ass for an them dudes do time am untouchable

    He was tired drifting of thinking of being famous hero

    HOw many times now I broke the law

    Mnnn foggagge tired ponders The Cop ASSAULT UNO ..

    The Girlfreind assault thing no biggeie DUEO

    An now ever so TIRED I offed a BLAKK KID…TREY…Yawn.

    Tray yawn TREAYAWN TRAYVON wonder e where that comes from as he drifsts off to slumber.

    In the back of m oysterman car /vech ich KILL.

  67. tharealkeisha says:

    Let’s pray for this Professor testimony tomorrow at trial.

  68. Tzar says:

    The altered photo

    it seems that everyone knows about the altered photo except for the prosecution

    • Rachael says:

      Oh, I’m sure they know it – but they think if they play stupid, they can pull it over on those who don’t know about it. They are lying sleazeballs.

    • Puck says:

      Wouldn’t it be awesome if getting close to resting their case, they brought in a computer imaging expert who exposed the photo the defense has been using all along as having been photoshopped to exaggerate the injuries?

    • jo says:

      wow. the abrasion in the photo on the left is in line with the corner of his eye, in the right the abrasion is way down his face..

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      Yes, I’ve been ranting about that for months. I cannot imagine that the prosecution will not address that in someway. It’s not just that the whole face is longer and thinner in the altered picture, look at the angles of his face. Look at the goatee and chin- Completely different angles from one pic to the other.

  69. colin black says:

    Watcha talkin bout Willis?

  70. crazy1946 says:

    As the discussion about the motion to allow the Fogdoits former professor to testify ended, it was noted by the state that they had flown two witnesses in to testify. Ok, we know who one is, any ideas as to who the second one is?

  71. Sophia33 says:

    Did anyone notice when MOM lied and tried to say that TWO of Trayvon’s knuckles were cut? When all else fails, lie, lie, lie.

    • Tzar says:

      I commented
      I assume the prosecution is waiting for the Me who did the autopsy to testify against that
      Guy already mentioned that there was one scratch in his opening statement

    • ic2fools says:

      @Sophia33 yes,I after explaination medical examer Vao told him ‘we not discussing knuckles’.
      she keep omara in his place didn’t even give him an opportunity to trip up her testimony.

      • Sophia33 says:


        She was the ME version of Rachel. Not taking MOM’s mess.

        • Rachael says:

          Yep and what is so cool is she is a trained experienced professional. Rachel did it all on her own. But what is really good is it seems like these defense lawyers think they can bully women. I think they thought they would break down in tears or something. So when they hand their shit right back to them, I want to cheer!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            rachael says

            I think they thought they would break down in tears or something. So when they hand their shit right back to them, I want to cheer!

            right beside you, sister!

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      YES! I yelled at the TV when he said that. Unless I missed it, I don’t think the ME corrected him, nor did Bernie object.

      • MedicineBear says:

        I think Bernie might be feeding OMar rope to let him expose himself as the oozing smarm he is. In contrast to Bag O’FlimFlam (who is condescending–especially to the “weaker” sex), Bernie is respectful of the jury’s intelligence by recognizing that these women are skilled in recognizing the spaghetti-bowlful of lies and deception that the duhfense is hurling at them.

        These are smart, intuitive people on the jury. Bernie is letting OMar show himself for what he is and is trusting the judgment of the jury to conclude that the duhfense wouldn’t need sleezy lies and deception to defend a man innocent of M2.

        • Cercando Luce says:

          I watched a speeded up version of Selma Mora’s witness. It seemed obvious to me that O’Mara had her walk around the court so that the defense table could take a gander at her– defense didn’t walk Jonathan Manalo around so that he could show relative distances etc. I call piggery. These men aren’t taking this case seriously.

  72. greenwarrior4 says:

    Just donated (a modest amount) in awesome appreciation of all your education and analysis of the trial so far.

  73. Puck says:

    I posted this in a discussion with Two sides to a story in the live blog thread, where no one will ever see it now that we’re all in this thread.

    Two sides wondered about “the occasional liberal or progressive among them – how would you explain that? They don’t line up ideologically on most other issues, but they share the same view of this case no matter how far-fetched it may seem. Closet racists, maybe.”

    I did a little sociology in my reply:

    “Or perhaps these are merely people who might have had an unpleasant encounter with a black person they found scary — perhaps a bona fide thug — and have always held on to that as a moment they recall when they see other black people. And this case, in a sense, is the trial of that black thug who scared them that one time. So they put Trayvon on trial, becoming Zimmerman supporters existing in a collective constructed simulacra of ‘reality’ in which they operate. That’s why they just can’t handle the facts, and say things like Dr. Roa’s testimony was “propaganda” and suggesting she had a little sumthin going on with Corey and Rick Scott. Now, does this seem like a scenario that would happen in our reality? We’re not operating in their ‘reality.’ Also, consider their consistent rejection of all forms of scientific evidence in this case. Is that not akin to creationism? They construct their own ‘facts’ and re-package it as “intelligent design.” And they teach that as a SCIENCE.

    It’s much like how the Republicans and even the Romney campaign were stunned that Obama won. They really were. Romney didn’t even prepare a concession speech, and I believe him. Republicans were relying on ‘data’ from sites like that completely unscientifically “unskews” legtimate polls. Think of all the pundits who were assured of a Romney slam-dunk? On Fox News, Karl Rove was disputing the results of Ohio even as the state — and the election — had been called for Obama.

    • Mojo says:

      I wasn’t stunned Romney lost (I was certain he’d get trounced). Nor was I aware that my belonging to the Republican party precluded me from being a Trayvon supporter. And it makes me a creationist too? Isn’t this the same kind of prejudiced preconception that the Zidiots make about black people? I thought this was about what justice and injustice, not Dem vs Rep.

      • EdgySF says:

        You make good points.

        We can all agree that Fox leans repub, and msnbc leans dem.

        And that fox is for Fogen and msnbc for Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Mojo, not much happens in this nation today that does not take on an air of politics. This case instantly became a political issue when the POTUS made the famous “if I had a son” comment. Too bad, this case would have a much stronger impact on society, as a whole, if it had been allowed to be a matter of justice for the murder of a child instead of becoming a back door means of Lynching a Black President….

        • EdgySF says:

          I respectfully disagree. I’m proud our potus said that. The gun nuts are the ones who were (heartlessly) outraged.

          This came became a political issue when the SPD refused to arrest a murderer.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Edgy, me too. It’s what the rest of us were thinking. President Obama had the good sense to come right out and say it, when it would have been politically more expedient in many quarters for him to have kept quiet. .

          • crazy1946 says:

            If you take a moment and read my comment again, my comment was not that it was too bad our POTUS said that, only that it is too bad it became a political issue because he said it! It provided the fuel that the GOP/TP needed to create another hotbed of racial hatred, all the while they claim not to be racist! While some of us were already following and supporting the call for justice for the murder of Trayvon, the support for the Fogdoit grew by leaps and bounds because of that comment. I guess that my support and vote for the man that I considered to be the best individual for the office counted because he was elected twice. Too bad that our whole life style is now so infused with politics!

      • Puck says:

        You don’t understand what I wrote, unfortunately.

        • Mojo says:

          I understand what you wrote perfectly. There’s nothing hidden or cryptic about it. It’s quite obvious from what you wrote what your feelings and opinions of Republicans are… and what political party you belong to. And you cast a broad stroke on all Republicans. I pointed out the flaw in your post. Your stereotyping of Reps is no different than the Zidiots making negative stereotype statements about black people.

          I’m attacked by both sides in the GZ case because of the political party I belong to. To the Zidiots I am a libtard, white apologist, not a real Republican. To you I’m a Republican who, along with ALL the other Republicans thought Romney would win. It’s stupid statement. You’re no different that the a-holes over at CTH pigeon-holing people into categories that fit their agenda and preconceived notions.

          • Puck says:

            I’m talking about the real crazies in your party. You know they’re there.

          • Puck says:

            And I’m not a Democrat; I’m Canadian, and my outsider status gives me a particularly good perspective from which to perform critical analysis. That peer-reviewed, 160-page paper I wrote on it didn’t come from nowhere.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Mojo, Mojo, Mojo! Please!
            Put down that yard-wide paintbrush!

            This is not political.
            This is a KID’S MURDER.

            I’ve been here for way over a year and everybody knows I am:

            1. Registered Republican
            2. Female
            3. White
            4. Rural
            5. Old

            And nobody, absolutely NOBODY gives a shit.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            well … been meaning to tell you … it really chaps my hide that you are old, white, and rural. i know you’re secretly trying to usurp me 😉

            mojo — she speaks the truth

          • cielo62 says:

            P-mom- gun owner, too, right? Love ya anyway.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • dianetrotter says:

            I am one of the weirdos too. I’m AA and not Democrat. My first vote was for Hubert Humphrey. For a while I tried to be Republican and settled in as an independent because it defines me. I make my own decisions based on my beliefs. I am also a Christian.

        • Mojo says:

          Piranha Mom: Obviously Puck cares or he wouldn’t have made it a political issue. I called him out for making it a political issue and painting ALL Republicans as the same. Then he/she tries to escape out of that with, “I was only talking about the far right crazies.” BS. This is the same exact mentality that says “Black teenager wiith a hoodie is an angry thug ready to commit a crime.” If you or anyone else wants to excuse puck for making that jump, then that’s your choice. I’m not going to cut him any slack. This is about Trayvon being murdered. Why does someone like Puck come in here and make it a Republicans are crazy issue?

          I’m done. Thanks

          • EdgySF says:

            Msnbc, which leans progressive, supports justice for Trayvon.

            Fox, which is an extension of the Republican Party, believe it was God’s Will that gun hero, George Zimmerman, kill that dangerous “thug.”

          • Puck says:

            I’m talking about Obama-era Republican politics. Do you not understand what has happened to your party? Are you in denial of what’s been going on since 2009?

            I didn’t make this an explicitly political issue. I likened the state of non-racists being trapped in the Zidiot collective delusion to those who believed the “unskewed” polls and assurances of a Romney win in spite of LEGITIMATE, SCIENTIFIC POLLING DATA showing a clear Obama win, and the actual electing results reflecting legitimate polling and analyses. Are you denying there was massive shock and disbelief at Romney’s defeat?

            Academic papers are peer-reviewed for a reason.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Mojo –

            I’m not defending Puck (what a great Canadian name! It’s like an American blogging on a Canadian site under the handle, “Baseball”)

            (And yes, I do know my Shakespeare, but I like the sports reference.)

            Mojo, I’m replying to your statement, “I’m attacked by both sides in the GZ case because of the political party I belong to.”

            Not here, babe, not here.

            Unless you’re incredibly skin-thinned. And comments by one or two guys bug you? Geez, get a flak jacket!

            We all take our lumps from time to time when another disagrees with us. Nobody turned on me because I’m a Republican, and they’re not turning on you.

            And bless Cielo! Cielo remembered that other thug-like quality about me besides my voter registration: gun owner (I thought about writing back and adding same. Thanks, Cielo, for taking care of that.)

            Just want to say, Mojo, if you’re proud of who you are and think you have something to offer, please keep being part of these discussions. Mostly, we care about intelligence and common sense. You’ve got both, so be generous and share.

          • cielo62 says:

            Pirhanamom- you’re a republican? Sorry. Our friendship is over. (Just kidding. As if fighting for justice is associated with politics. It’s a HUMAN endevour).

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • RobUK says:

            It’s not a coincidence that most of the very worst anti-black racism during this case has emanated from the right-wing – the notorious, depraved and deranged Conservative Treehouse for example. Racism and the Right-wing go together like tea and crumpets.

            To be a member of the Republican party and to vote for it, means that you have aligned yourself with and help support an anti-black organization that is jam-packed with racists. There is no getting away from that.

            Comparing provably false negative stereotypes about a historically oppressed racial group and verifiable observations about an organization and movement steeped in racism, is a false comparison.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Mojo — In Florida, plenty of registered Republicans, who abhor the extremist anti-gay, creationist nonsense and who worked diligently for both Obama campaigns, knew Romney didn’t have a prayer except in phony polls.

        Many of these same sane, sensible folks early on helped pull the wagon seeking Justice for Trayvon.

        Don’t for a moment think that GOP Gov. Rick Scott didn’t feel the pressure welling up from his own party, which is why the sun set on Norm Wolfinger’s ability to cover up, and Angela Corey was brought in to take a fresh look and prosecute the blazes out of Trayvon’s lying murderer.

        Justice for Trayvon in bringing Fogen to trial is an equal opportunity triumph for Democrats, Republicans and Independents (and any other parties in other nations) of all races, creeds and sexual preferences.

        • Mojo says:

          I agree with you TO. I don’t dig being lumped into a one-size-fits-all category. I also will call out people who attempt to do so and make this a Dem vs Rep argument. It’s the same mentality that says black kid with hoodie is a thug.

          • Puck says:

            As I said about, I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about the crazies. So don’t be sad.

          • Judy75201 says:

            I understand how you feel. I was apolitical until the tea party pissed into the republican party’s cornflakes and nothing was done about it. I do tend to broad-brush your party now, because those who are vocal in it are either tea party “patriots” who hijack town halls, or religiously-driven “christians” who want to control women via “family values”, or second amendment “patriots” who worship guns over all else. I’m sorry I haven’t seen the moderates like yourself. I’ll try harder.

    • EdgySF says:

      I think some people, who willingly choose not to learn the facts, like to think (it feels cozy) that Fogen was a mature adult concerned for his neighborhood’s safety (aren’t we all) and that this stereotype was acting all stereotypical and you know what that means….it escalated rapidly and Fogen had no choice but to kill the kid. Oops.

      The fact that he was a blood thirsty psycho looking to bag his first (easy) kill is too much for them to handle.

      In fact, they probably are too weak to handle a single day in the life of our beautiful Rachel.

    • Beverly says:

      Thanks for the reminder, Karl, etc. One of the shocking things in this case has been the view of how uncompassionate many people have seemed. It seems to me even a pretty narrow view would have to see that a very young man was murdered with no cause…..maybe Z had a few abrasions. The rest is hype. And he provoked the whole scenario onto himself, apparently. Maybe it is just a formum where sympathy cannot be expressed. Would not Z be facing a very different outlook if he had shown alittle remorse?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I understand the conservative mindset but still have trouble wrapping my head around devoted progressives supporting Fogen, except for the rabid second amendment / self defense proponents and the “had a bad experience with a black male” crowd. Some deny both and yet consort with all sorts of racists in support of Fogen.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      On Fox News, Karl Rove was disputing the results of Ohio even as the state — and the election — had been called for Obama.

      IMO, Rove thought the fix was in, they were tampering with the voting machines , this is what I read & I believe it is probably true

  74. bellesouth says:

    Is there a link to the defense’s reply to the motion regarding the spawns?

  75. PerfectlyImperfect says:

    HLN is calling Mark Osterman GZ’s frenemy. LOL. After he testified that GZ was his best friend forever!!!

  76. Girlp says:

    Just read an article on the Washington Post,. Jonathan Caprehart says the fake picture of Trayvon, the picture of a 31 year old called Game is still making the rounds through email as the real Trayvon Martin…sad I don’t think this will ever end esp with O’Mara’s attempt to depict a much taller and larger Trayvon.

    • Nef05 says:

      I wouldn’t put it past the defense to have dummied up a email account and started circulating it again. They need something to get those last pennies out of the pockets of the racists, before the trial is over. Vanilla cones cost money.

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      I see that picture posted on Huffpost at least once a day. Dolts .

  77. Girlp says:

    I hope the jury pays attention to Zimmermans reaction to his Hannity interview as well as the interview itself. That grin speaks for itself he is so proud; proud of something that will send him to prison.

    • Trained Observer says:

      After more than a week of being patiently schooled by the State on run-up to the murder, I can’t help but think today’s clever timing to introduce the Hannity interview was devastating to the Defense.

      In contrast, Fogen likely was proud for jurors to see him in pre-chub shape, neglecting to notice they also heard his ignorant comments.

      • Girlp says:

        Trained Zimmerman is self too self involved to realize that the recording with Hannity was a disaster…he loves himself over and above anyone a true sociopath.

    • Rachael says:

      He was grinning while he watched the interview?!!! You are right. It will all be over if the jury saw that.

      • Girlp says:

        Remember his donations dwindled to nothing after that interview and for him to sit there and make a huge smiley face will not help him. The ME proved no head slamming it was foolish for O’Mara to even try to prove it, Zimmerman would be dead or in a nursing home.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I wonder if the members of the jury noticed the 2 different ways that gz presented (conducted) himself between Hannity and reenactment.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Seemed like two different personalities.

        • Girlp says:

          YATC, Zimmerman is not a healthy person I’m certain he has serious mental health issues and that his parents have known this since he was small and have been in denial all this time. The only issue they will admit to is ADHD. However, the law say’s if you know right from wrong you are responsible for your actions and Zimmerman has attempted to cover his crime with a hundred lies.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I agree with your analysis, Girlp.

          • elcymoo says:

            I speculated early on that GZ was seeing a psychologist (not that there’s anything wrong with that; it was my college major) when he said during that silly voice stress interview that he’d had to see ‘his’ psychologist, after his PA had recommended that he see ‘a’ psychologist. She confrimed during her testimony that he was already seeing a psychologist, but because parts of his medical records were off-limits, the jurors were probably let wondering why. It could have been for something related to his ADHD disorder, but it could be lingering anger management issues as well.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I knew he was dumber than I thought when I saw that smirk again.

  78. EdgySF says:

    Ok…wouldn’t it be nice if Tracy treats Sabryna to ice cream when the jury finds foggen guilty of murder?


  79. KA says:


    “…Vereen recounted a prior interview with Jeantel where she explained their bond, “she said he was one of the few guys that never made fun of me, about the way I dressed, about the way I talked, about my hair, about my complexion… about my weight.”

    This is exactly the young man Trayvon is…made me eye water a bit…

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thank you for posting this excellent article, KA.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Just as I suspected all along.

      • Rachael says:

        Me too and it is just like I said, Trayvon was NOT superficial – like all those making fun of his friend. She went through hell for him and I’m sure we all have superficial slime friends, but we should all be so lucky to have a friend like Rachel AND a friend like Trayvon.

        That refuse at the outhouse kept saying crap like “I can’t picture Trayvon talking for hours to a girl like her.” Well you assholes, because you are just superficial jerks who shoot at hoodies without checking to see who’s under them.

        Asshats, all of them. Especially West and his daughters.

    • Girlp says:

      Trayvon was a good person I hate someone so precious has been taken away. I hope Rachel continues to come out of her shell and realizes that their is absolutly nothing wrong with her.

      • @Girip:

        Trayvon was such a good soul. Fogen took away from this earth, one of God’s children, and he will pay dearly for it! Trayvon accepted Rachel for who she was. He didn’t judge. What a sweet kid. I wish everyone could see inside the heart of everyone instead of judging people from the outside. Rachel was such a dear. So thoughtful and so cute! I used to wear my hair up in a bun when I was her age too! Yes, she went through hell for TM and she would do it again. She showed much strength and courage for a young person. I am so proud of her!

        I noticed Sybrina and Tracy passing notes back and forth during the testimony of Mark Osterman. Probably stating what a goof ball he was, in addition to saying what a liar he is!!

    • ic2fools says:

      thanks KA,for this link.

    • groans says:

      Thank you, KA. My heart breaks for Rachel’s loss. I wish we could let her know how much we care about her here.

    • breelee says:

      KA, thank you so much for sharing this. Made me cry, thinking of that poor girl and what she still has to face. Seeing a bit of the treatment she’s receiving, breaks my heart and proves to me why I love animals almost more than people. We all have to do what we can to help her after she’s released. I pray we can show her there’s folks who care about her and don’t think she’s below anyone! She’s a better person than ANY fogen supporter, that’s a fact!

  80. EdgySF says:

    Chills run down my spine whenever I see foggen, in his video reenactment, use the “gun” gesture to point where Trayvon Benjamin Martin was in front of him on the sidewalk.

    Major tell….he followed the youth with his gun out. Hence, the screaming for his life.

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      I agree completely. I think that is why he blurted out the absurd statement to Ervin, “to Be honest with you the whole time I forgot I had a gun.” He is a compulsive liar, but a bad liar. Question: I assume the results of the ridiculous Voice Stress Analysis cannot be entered, but can any points of that interview be brought into evidence? Ervin was, after all, the only one who gave GZ any pushback at all about the way he claimed to draw his gun, and how he could not have extended his arm the way he said he did several times.

  81. smokeegyrl says:

    My computor was down most of the day I missed the whole afternoon because of the upgrade of the download and upload speed yayyyyyy… now I can upload the trial mp4 files I do have… and have to find the others… at least I have dee’s testimonys.. The last I had for today was when O’M started to get in with the ME and the last word I heard her says was… “let me as you a question?” If you scratch your head wouldn’t you get a putnik… and he said… let’s move on… hahahahaha…

  82. riisey007 says:

    Mercy me!! Oh I am so glad that I am off tommorow and will be able to hear this professors testimony. I have wanted so badly for his transcripts to come out. Last year I found the college online and I went into the criminal justice curriculum and I provided a link for people to read where GZ could have possibly learned forensics science, self defense laws and different degrees of murder. The curiculum included a summary of all of the courses. Someone told me that it didn’t mean that GZ took those specific classes but now that I get to at least have his professor tell what classes he took I am in heaven. All of my files went poop with my old lap top and I never got a chance to save them to a jump drive so I can’t post here but you guys are pretty computer savy, I know you can find it yourself. Woo hooo. Yes!!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      oh — last year that whole packet of info was released in error by the prosecution – he was a horrible student. 7 years and still no AA degree. in highschool, he finished 315 out of 317. we’ve had a few laughs at his expense and i’m not sorry to say.

      • aussie says:

        316 and 317 were off sick for 7 months of the year.

      • riisey007 says:

        I wonder if Zim was on pell grant while going to school and was just eating up free money at least for the 2 years. He and Shellie got a couple of kids so he most likely got the max because they barely work. When I was working on my first degree my parents were poor enough for me to get the full grant and I always had money left to use for extra supplies, etc. I wouldn’t care if he failed DINING OUT 101, if he took the class he knows the deal. If he bought the book for the class he could read and study it all he wants. Zimmerman is getting to many breaks. The SPD already screwed up most of the case.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          no kids there riisey — my own thought is that they just scam off of student loans that they never intend to pay,.

  83. groans says:

    I loved Osterman’s testimony that GZ told him Trayvon supposedly straddled him such that his knees were in GZ’s armpits!

    How do you “shimmy” downwards from that?
    And how could EITHER of them either see or reach “the” gun?

    • uhoh says:

      Good catch. I heard too today that but never made the connection.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Yeah, I mentioned this earlier. If GZ had shimmied down from that then Trayvon’s knee would be at his head.

    • boyd says:

      this zimmerman guy has told so many different it will take 2 months to analyze each one.

      Of course to the media it’s just another minor inconsistency that keep adding up. No one wants to speak for Trayvon.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Well said. It takes the ilk of you guys on this blog to untangle GZ’s web of lies. The media folks are not intelligent enough to do that and the don’t have the time anyways. GZ’s lies are sooo much convoluted that – given that the victim is dead and there are no eyewitnesses – they are hard to untangle. That’s what makes this case difficult.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Yeah when I saw that in his interview statement I had to stop myself from laughing myself silly. He almost single-handedly blew a whale shaped whole in GZ’s story.

  84. Mojo says:

    Watching the Osterman testimony again. He’s just as phony and disingenuous as GZ. No wonder they’re BFF’s. I wonder if Taafe got all butt hurt when he learned Osterman and not him was GZ’s BFF?

    • groans says:

      And MOM had to do a little impeachment of BFF Osterman, too!

    • SearchingMind says:

      I think Mark Osterman was honest and dumb. GZ told him ‘A’. He believed ‘A’ to be true. He relayed ‘A’ during his testimony as what GZ told him. He does not know that GZ told ‘B’ to others and by all accounts has not bothered to research diverse accounts of GZ and/or tailored his testimony to match GZ’s “official”account of what happened. He does not understand why prosecutors are very interested in his testimony, and Bernie was smiling broadly after that testimony while O’Mara looked very sad. Osterman believes he helped GZ, but in reality he tightened the noose around GZ’s neck even stronger.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        He knows GZ said ‘B’ to others, just wants to keep his dirty self professionally safe. “Law enforcement?” This fool shouldn’t be deputized when he’s spreading a gospel of JustShoot’Em if you think they’re a bad guy.

  85. EdgySF says:

    This is the first I’ve seen a clip of MO. Who spilled water on his head??

    • groans says:

      I think he’s the first witness to be wiping his forehead during his testimony. Seen a lot of nose scratching and rubbing – including by Osterman – but no hankies other than Osterman.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i somehow missed most of it while dealing with kids. i think the whole day is worth re watching … and i think i will.

      (do i need a 12 step program? i’m depending on you folks for that ‘intervention’ meeting.)

  86. Unabogie says:

    Sorry to repost, but the question came up about why the prosecution isn’t trying their best to say that Trayvon never hit Zimmerman at all? And after the last week, here is what I think the evidence shows.

    I think it would be a mistake for the prosecution to try and present Trayvon as never having engaged Zimmerman.

    Jenna Lauer hears an argument happening at the T, and so does Jeanee Manalo. At some point, Jenna hears a grunt and the sound of scurrying feet, as if two people are running. To me this matches what Rachel Jeantel heard, with Zimmerman catching up to Martin, demanding to know who he was, and grabbing his arm to detain him (“get off, get off!”). I think Martin punched Zimmerman once here, but he did not fall down. Martin ran away and Zimmerman chased him to where the phone and flashlight fell. A few seconds later, Selene and her sister hear noises of scuffling feet and she looks out to see both of them grappling by where the cell phone fell, and this is important, STANDING UP. She goes back inside to turn off the stove. She comes back and at this point I believe Martin and Zimmerman went down to the grass. I think Zimmerman did in fact do a shimmy here, and scooted himself onto the sidewalk, and did really hit his head, and that Martin did in fact get on top at the time John Good came out. But when John Good went back inside, Zimmerman flipped Martin off and got back on top. This is when Austin Brown saw him. Zimmerman, as per the location of the shell casing and the direction of the blood, was on top at this point. He shot Martin, and Selma Mora ran to her window in time to see Zimmerman on top five seconds after the shooting. Several witnesses saw the same thing.

    So I don’t think the state needs to prove that Martin was never on top or never hit Zimmerman. I think it’s sufficient to show that a) Zimmerman was never knocked down at the T, and b) he didn’t get the beat down he claimed, and in fact continued to go after Trayvon until he killed him, and c) made up a bunch of vicious and unbelievable lies to cover up the fact that at every step of the way he was the agent of conflict, while Martin was trying to get away.

    To me, this fits all the evidence and doesn’t require any discounting of witnesses as liars or shills, fits the physical evidence, and doesn’t require Martin to be a superhero or Zimmerman to have planned this from the start. And if the state argues something that fits ALL of the evidence and exposes Zimmerman as the sociopathic liar he really is, the jury will not let him get away with killing Trayvon Martin.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      unaboogie — i did not get past your first few sentences, but read the charging document. the state stipulated from the beginning that there was a ‘scuffle’. their goal is to prove that the defendant was the original aggressor in addition to the elements of M2.

      • Unabogie says:

        Why didn’t you get past my first few sentences? Please read what I have to say, since I think this is exactly what the state will be arguing.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          you started with a question

          Sorry to repost, but the question came up about why the prosecution isn’t trying their best to say that Trayvon never hit Zimmerman at all?

          i answered because it was not necessary – the state already stipulated that there was a scuffle.

          the remainder of your post is highly plausible, they’ve submitted testimony to support it, but it is not necessary to claim that trayvon never hit zimmerman although there is strong evidence to support it.

          zimmerman does show injury and we have no clues where they came from and i don’t think the state has any proof of where they did come from. as long as they can prove zimmerman to be the original aggressor and the elements of M2, then it is not necessary.

          pretty much what i said in my first answer.

          • Unabogie says:

            Thanks for the reply. I don’t think we’re very far apart. I think BDLR is trying to set himself up with maximum credibility. If you’re going to argue the other guy is a liar, you have to make sure they don’t come away with “they’re all lying…REASONABLE DOUBT!”

          • fauxmccoy says:

            right — even though we believe there is strong evidence regarding trayvon not getting in much of a ‘fight’ (no foreign blood/dna on sleeves or under nails), the mere fact that there are demonstrable injuries and o’mara’s silly rain dance story could plant reasonable doubt. firmly establishing the defendant as the aggressor, with martin having the right to stand his own damn ground effectively dismisses those doubts.

          • @fauxmccoy:

            Hey Fauxmccoy! Great post BTW! As a medical professional, i was most interested in what the Medical Physician was testifying about, but she could have been more forceful about it! This medical Doctor of over 25 years knows good and well, that Fogen’s injuries are more than minor. They are VERY minor and they are not consistent with him getting his head bashed against the concrete ground 20 times and she knows it! They need to state exactly what he stated! if his injuries were so bad, why didn’t he seek medical care??

            Mark Osterman is big joke! What was he smiling about anyway? He reiterated all of Fogen’s lies and one by one they are being revealed for the lies that they are. IMO he wanted to sell more of his bogus book!

          • fauxmccoy says:


            thanks. unaboogie deserves the credit here, i expounded on my own thoughts.

            yours are on the money as well. it was great to see this well qualified ME tell the damn truth about those injuries from a professional perspective. it’s been a long ass wait for that, but worth it.

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          Stone headed.

          I agree with what some of what you said but a punch to the face by Martin does not agree with the evidence. We saw Zimmerman bleeding, Martin never touched any of it. I think it was downright stupid for the State to hypothesize about how Zimmerman got his injuries. isn’t this song and dance of calling his witnesses meant to force him to the stand and answer for himself? Well they just explained some of his injuries for him. I think that was beyond stupid and not a single person can tell me why it was a good idea. BDLR has hammered home two points 1. No fight, 2. Zimmerman MMA. Now we have a fight and Martin able to knock MMA on his ass?

          Great idea to say his injuries were not life threatening STUPID idea to say Martin punched him. Good idea to say his head injuries could come from contact with concrete STUPID idea to say a punch from Martin may have had something to do with it. Also it was stupid to try to define “slammed” as if Martin could have slammed his head but it was a baby slam.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I do not have the concerns that you do, Tasha.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I think BLDR did a good job today.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            YAHTC says

            I think BLDR did a good job today.

            you are so right! i was concerned yesterday (mostly about singleton/serino testimony) but i do believe that the orchestration here has been masterful.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            You, I think BDLR did a WONDERFUL JOB TODAY. Brilliant! If I could kiss him I would. I disagree wholeheartedly with Guy and Rao. My gut gives me a bad feeling and my gut is usually right. 😦

          • cielo62 says:

            Tasha- get some pepto. Today your gut is wrong.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I actually feel very calm tonight.

            I think all three members of the prosecution team are performing well.

            As far as Rao: Remember, she said that the injuries were very minor. Can’t get better than that!

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Remember, Tasha, MOM is asking extreme questions.

            I you were on the stand, and I asked you if it were possible that you were going to win the lottery this week, you would have to answer “yes”. However, a jury would not put much weight on your “yes” answer because they would know the odds of your chance to win.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


            *IF you were on the stand*

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Ok. I’ll try to get some rest tonight lol. But really, BDLR got straight up gansta on the defense today and I really felt that. I think all in all it was a good day but you know, people are trying to find any way at all to make Trayvon an aggressive thug. There was no hint of this until he magically punched someone today. God be with him and bless his soul, forever.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            who are you calling ‘stone head? me or unaboogie?

            rest of comment patently absurd.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            tashatexas77048 says

            Stone headed.

            now who are you calling names?

          • parrot says:

            @YAHTC or anyone else who can shed light on this:

            Why is an expert (even one of the highest caliber like Dr. Rao) answering EXTREMELY tortuous hypothetical questions at all?? Why play those games?

            Couldn’t Rao have said, “That hypothetical, based on the forensic evidence of THIS case, is so improbable/absurd/ preposterous/contrived as to make it my speculating on it irresponsible and a disservice to the finders of fact?” (or something better)

            Can this be done?

            I thought she stood up well to O’Mara, but she didn’t go so far as to do this. Why?

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I am inexperienced in all of this, but I think I am correct with the following:

            The sick part of the questioning is that those questions (about possibilities as opposed to hypotheticals) can be answered and the answers do not fall into the realm of speculation.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            It is like asking:

            Are you certain that your refrigerator light turns off when you close the refrigerator?

            Unless you have a camera in the refrigerator, you must answer “No” to the question.

          • turtlecoal says:

            Tasha & una are the truth this was a rolling wrestling incident & the use of force was a reaction to fogen (Im glad CAC & Nigga has been recognised as what it means when the “kids” say it NOT RACISM byTrayvon on this blog NIGGER & NIGGA are two diffrent words too XD) reaching for a object which he said he was or striking Trayvon & I am Black & the tough hair lessons blow force if struck there with a object, My ex was biracial some of my kids have stringy hair & my hair & they react diffrent to bumping thier heads XD. I honestly believe Trayvon perceived fogens weapon to be the flashlight & believe fogen tried to detain or made a threatening gesture towards Trayvon. Trayvon had fogen by the wrist, & wrist only.

            Some might seen my rant a couple day’s ago & thought he is trolling, I say No!!! I hate when kids get killed & I as a person who has served my country & fought & watch my fellow countrymen die for others including me since I lived. I never heard Natolle holloway called a drunk slut for leaving with jordan vandersloot a guy she didnt know, but I did watch a spoiled rich kid who’s father had some pull get his son off until he touched down in peru & got caught up when the truth came out.

            I never met a female in the park taking a jog, who runs from a potential rapist come back to confront her rapist. This illogical view of Trayvon is what angers me.

            Obama was elected by the youth & I am part of the under 30 voting block at the time of his first election & we were tired of false narratives & misinfo, karl rove politics that fox news spewed. I am angry cause free speech can be BOUGHT to tell a lie.

            A kid ran down the street from a grown man chasing him & America doesnt care how he felt as he RAN? The youth did & protested made RAP video’s & posters & youtube video’s.

            The media doesnt count know to the jury or maybe they do, but the prosecution should bring all to the table fogens child molestation accusations especially that, since that says he violates people with blatant disregard to others feeelings, emotions & physical health.

            So I am more MALCOM X then MLK, but both were the basic parts of a movement for equal justice. I aint a REVEREND OR A IMAM & I dont turn my cheek. I am individually ANGRY as alot of others. But the fight for equal justice is getting redundant

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


            Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

            My thoughts:

            We are born with an inner gauge in the form of emotions. When we experience anger, it is often an inner warning that something is wrong in our environment or society. Once we decipher what is wrong, anger has performed its function, and we have to put the anger (the gauge) down and use effective means to bring about change.

            Constructive actions guided by the wisdom of a kind heart and calm, logical mind are needed to bring about change.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I agree with your theory:

      “To me, this fits all the evidence and doesn’t require any discounting of witnesses as liars or shills, fits the physical evidence, and doesn’t require Martin to be a superhero or Zimmerman to have planned this from the start. And if the state argues something that fits ALL of the evidence and exposes Zimmerman as the sociopathic liar he really is, the jury will not let him get away with killing Trayvon Martin.”

      Yes, Unibogie, this was a ROLLING conflict, initiated by Zimmerman whose intent was to pursue, confront and detain Trayvon Martin.

      I believe both went to ground after Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon by the shirts, demanding “Whatcha doing around here!” and both fell. (Jenna stated she heard “What are you doing — “)

      Trayvon immediately yelled “Get off! Get off!”

      I have called these “environmental injuries” from this rolling, grappling capture by Zimmerman. There’s the concrete dog walk that John Goode said they had to traverse. There are the covered concrete vaults (approximately 12″ x 18″) for water controls, flush with the turf by the dog walk. There are sprinkler heads, likely embedded contiguous to the concrete. These have a central screw that is raised to set the spray pattern (higher the screw, the closer the spray) and though the screw may be raised only two millimeters or so, it has a nasty rough edge). Sprinkler heads may be responsible for the two cuts on the back of Zimmerman’s head.

      Clearly, however, ALL THOSE VERY MINOR SCALP INJURIES had to happen AFTER Zimmerman regained the “mount position” over Trayvon, BECAUSE NONE WERE SMEARED OR SMUDGED.

      Thus, Zimmerman fired the single fatal shot AFTER HE HAD REGAINED CONTROL OVER TRAYVON AND WAS MOUNTED ON TRAYVON, a position from which neighbor witnesses saw him RISE.

      While likely not premeditated from the outset, the shot was fired with willful disregard for human life.

      His life, in fact, was what Trayvon was screaming for.

      Zimmerman expected the cops to arrive momentarily, as they did. He made his decision to fire knowing this.

      Trayvon’s pleas were denied, in Zimmerman’s hope that his stupidity and unlawful pursuit-to-detain and his unlawful assault on Trayvon could be covered up — and so that Zimmerman would gain “status” for “apprehending the ‘suspect’. ”

      He seethed because “the stucco guys” had just gotten kudos for the apprehension of a burglary suspect.

      With this Sunday evening act, Zimmerman expected to regain the limelight and hero status.

      Truly, as John Guy said, “He shot him because he wanted to.”

      Thanks, Unibogie.

      • Unabogie says:

        You’re welcome. My personal opinion is that Zimmerman got angry when he hit his head and killed him because of it. Although seeing as how calm he was afterwards, he just might be a psychopath. I cannot figure out his depraved minds.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Uni –

          We have seen that Zimmerman is the classic coward – goes after kids, animals, girls and old ladies (specifically, HIS old lady. Doesn’t his church teach him to “honor thy mother”?)

          Classic cowards get extremely hyped over the tiniest injury done to them – even if by accident – and lash out in anger at the nearest person the coward can blame. Never himself.

          Same story for narcissists. He should change his name to ZimmerMe.

          Blood rage fueled the killing of Trayvon Martin, yes.

          Thanks, Uni. He was calm because he killed. Likely gave him a real jolt of pleasure, anticipating his hero status.

          Notice he NEVER said “it was an accident.”

          Did not want to perpetuate the notion that really, Zimmerman was both a putz and a klutz.

        • Xena says:

          @Unabogie. GZ said on Hannity’s why he shot Trayvon. We only need to remember that Trayvon was screaming for his life. GZ told Hannity that he was afraid the cop would arrive and see him with his gun and shoot him.

          It was my impression that the question today about rain washing off latent prints is leading to the prosecution presenting that GZ had his gun out much longer than GZ says.

          • aussie says:

            If the DECISION TO SHOOT was from fear the cops would see the gun, that means the GUN WAS VISIBLE before the decision was taken. That means it was out for reasons other than shoot to kill. That is illegal 40 ways to Sunday, so he’s 140% in the wrong.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I don’t think it’s possible for the straight thru&thru shot to have been accomplished if either was on top of the other. I believe they had to be in an upright, standing position, with fogen having grasped Trayvon’s clothing, stretching it, while avoiding shooting his own fucked up thumb.

        • kllypyn says:

          He was holding on to Trayvon’s shirts while he was trying to pull away and escape. Which is why he was screaming in the first place, The panic and desperation in trayvon’s voice and the fact he was crying proves this.

      • LeaNder says:

        Piranha, I don’t have much time to look into all the comments or into unibogie’s theories. Lot’s of things to do.

        But did you notice that Dorival said on the stand that Fogen had told her he has some type of business?

        I am in the process of cleaning out a lot of written notes from the trail. This too will go to the waste bin.

        “he had a business”.

        Pathological liar, someone who put an future intention into the present? Claiming it was a fact?

        But I didn’t check it, if I throw them away now, it will keep me from checking them at a later point. 😉

    • Judy75201 says:

      My problem with an actual punch being thrown that could break a nose is the lack of DNA and knuckle abrasions. I don’t see it as possible.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I don’t see it as possible either. I think a rolling takedown by Zimmerman better explains every single injury he has, even the tip of his nose injury and he first took Martin down on concrete which explains the abrasion on Martin’s hand but they rolled to the grass which explains what Rachel heard. The rolling takedown explains EVERYTHING including Rachel hearing “get off:” and Martin’s blood curdling screams for help. This Rao witness made me nauseous. I am happy that someone else could see why.

        • LeaNder says:

          tasha, what I didn’t like about the medical expert is that she ultimately confirmed the blow. I am seriously wondering if she is really to say what caused the tiny little scratches on the back of his head. Couldn’t it have happened when Fogen tried to shimmy, or whatever he called it, from concrete to grass. Meaning could he have scraped his head on the process? In any case she didn’t convince me, although slightly more than O’Mara’s bobo theory of two, three, four, “could it have been ..” dozens

          Concerning O’Mara’s sleazy–to use Fred’s term– suggestion that Fogen did know nothing of the collected evidence when he gave his statements. If so, he surely realized if he hurt himself in the process and that it maybe could be used to attribute it to some type of strike.

          I had the same feeling when she attributed the tiny little scratch on Trayvon’s finger? OK, I haven’t frequently had fights in my life, but I can think of many scenarios in which I can scrape my fingers. Can you really scratch your hand from hitting someone in the nose. I have to ask my brother he once did this to me.

          What about a hit on the nose that leaves a scratch again? On the tip of the nose? Wouldn’t that be highly unusual?

          As far as I am concerned the worst about the lady was that she admitted she does not have much knowledge in physics, not concerning the body, but physics as in natural science. Wouldn’t that be necessary in this context, I asked myself when she said it. E.g. what is the exact speed of a bullet case and what what would be the impact or the product of mass and speed. Newton’s second law could help in this context. If I remember correctly, it’s long ago. Wouldn’t this be a much more likely scenario for the little scrap on the tip of the nose than a blow? Wouldn’t a bullet case be much more likely to leave a scratch than a fist? Now I am assuming the bullet case could be analyzed for DNA.

          and now I shut up for a while.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        There WAS NO “broken” nose. Septum was straight and intact. You see more of a lip injury that caused that bloody mouth.

        Which Zimmerman rubbed, after the Kel-Tek recoiled.

        • Judy75201 says:

          OH, I know, there was no broken nose! That’s the point. If Trayvon HAD broken his nose, there would be evidence on Trayvon’s hand.

      • aussie says:

        You may be right. But there was no broken nose, so its an academic question. “They” of course are saying why did they only check under the fingernails, not the knuckles………..

    • Tzar says:

      Martin’s hands don’t say much about a fight

      • racerrodig says:

        Other than “…swing…..and a miss” nope, there is nothing. He’s backed in a corner where that’s almost what it’s coming to. Good says he saw all these downward blows and we can assume they all missed???? But he shot him anyway ??

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        They say he could have scraped his knuckle on concrete when Zimmerman took him down. And certainly his sleeves say nothing about hitting Zimmerman…ever. It’s as if today the state forgot that Martin screamed. So he punched Fogen and then screamed for help? I give Martin an elbow to Zimmerman’s face as he was taken down by Zimmerman but a direct punch to the face that caused Zimmerman to hit his head on concrete negates Martin’s claim to self defense if he then got on Zimmerman to continue what he started. I’m still shaking my MFH.

        • Tzar says:

          Don’t worry
          Rao did not say that Trayvon gave Zimmerman any of his injuries
          just that his injuries COULD have come from ONE punch and hitting his head ONCE on the concrete

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Do you at least agree that her speculating about Martin hitting Zimmerman, complete with her putting a fist up to her face, was extremely counterproductive?

          • Tzar says:

            She could have also been speculating that Zimmerman hit himself
            point is she contradicted Zimmerman’s exagerations
            besides Trayvon Martin had every right to defend himself from detention, interrogation or attack.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            tasha says

            Do you at least agree that her speculating about Martin hitting Zimmerman, complete with her putting a fist up to her face, was extremely counterproductive?

            excuse me? did dr. rao say “imagine this is fogen’s head. now imagine this is trayvon’s fist” then proceed to mock hit her own nose?

            that’s right, i didn’t think so.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Ehhh…not going with Zimmerman hitting himself as her speculation, not head-on anyway. Usually if someone hits their own face wouldn’t it be more to the side? And then he knocked himself down onto the concrete? No Tzar, that’s not what she said. Hopefully this is leading to evidence of them seeing Oysterspazz show up and punch him at some point lol. I’m trying to keep my head up. 😦

          • jo says:

            remember what she said about the swelling on his nose at the scene and how it had already gone down in the photo’s at the station because it must have been a very minor injury….broken nose pfffft my ass has a crack in it but it’s not broken.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @tzar who says

            Don’t worry
            Rao did not say that Trayvon gave Zimmerman any of his injuries
            just that his injuries COULD have come from ONE punch and hitting his head ONCE on the concrete

            OMG OMG OMG OMG
            it’s the end of the world
            OMG OMG OMG OMG

            🙂 no worries here

          • cielo62 says:

            Faux McCoy- LOL! Reminds me a scene from the movie MASH during the football game. A gun is fired to signal the end of the quarter and Hot Lips screams My God they shot him! Colonel Blake said Hot Lips you blithering idiot, it’s the end of the quarter! LOVE that movie!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • Judy75201 says:

          Trayvon had no knuckle scrapes whatsoever. What are you talking about?

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            He had one abrasion on his left ring finger. He certainly didn’t get it from beating the hell out of anyone, I think a takedown is the most likely culprit.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            And I say knuckle, I mean finger.

          • Judy75201 says:

            @Tasha, since the abrasion was below the knuckle, you need to remember to make that distinction and not sound like O’Mara lol.

          • jo says:

            maybe he got those abrasions from his hands being repeatedly slammed against that damn concrete…like all of georgeys many little boo boos.

          • Judy75201 says:

            @Jo, there was one very tiny abrasion on Trayvon’s left ring finger below the knuckle. That’s it. No plurals. No knuckles.

          • jo says:

            thanks judy, was just being sarcastic

        • Malisha says:

          No abrasions on knuckles. Small wound on side of fourth finger. NOT from a punch. You can’t punch THERE.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        tzar says

        Martin’s hands don’t say much about a fight

        no, they don’t, tzar. as a matter of strategy though, it might be best to not deny because of reasonable doubt (puny abrasion on martin’s left hand, ME evidence that there was likely 1 punch). if trayvon threw one punch, i think the evidence would look the same. think about it — a quick pop to the nose, minor abrasion to martin’s finger, minor injury to zimschnozz, but punch completed before any blood got on martin’s hand and thus no blood transfer or even dna transfer.

        just my thought … and well, i’d like to think trayvon did the best he could.

    • bettykath says:

      I don’t believe Selene saw them standing. When she said they were vertical, she meant they were vertical to her as if looking at a clock face. They were laying at 6 o’clock, not vertical to the ground.

      • unabogie says:

        No, that was John Good with the problem using vertical correctly. Selene saw them upright.

      • boyd says:

        huh? she said they were erect, that’s standing.

        Then she said she heard her neighbor say something that would be John Good who saw them standing in a position that soon had them on the ground. Either Good or the lawyer put their hands together in a 11am simulate how they were standing. Then he said next they were on the ground with the kid on top. Before he saw anything he heard noises than forced him to lower the TV and look outside. All the witnesses said the same thing.

        But none of that matters to me , no one saw the initial encounter, .

        • tashatexas77048 says:

          So when Good said vertical, he meant standing up? That is usually what vertical means but it seems he fiddled with the word and eventually decided he didn’t know the difference between vertical and horizontal. I believe he initially saw them standing up. I believe Good saw Zimmerman murder Martin in cold blood. I believe they knew each other because it’s interesting that Zimmerman made it a point to remember Good. it’s also interesting Good is the only witness so far that puts Martin on top hitting (at) Zimmerman and he’s the only one that saw the Zimmy Shimmy. He just saw it the opposite way Zimmerman described but it’s still very suspect.

          • Unabogie says:

            No, Good said “vertical” and “horizontal” when he meant to say “perpendicular” or “adjacent”. But Selene did in fact see them standing. This was the most one of the most critical pieces of evidence so far, because she saw them standing by the flashlight. That means no one was on the ground until well into the scuffle. And in a scuffle that only took 50 seconds, you can’t lose time to moments when you weren’t actually suffering any kind of injuries at all.

    • I think you’ve got the State’s closing argument figured out. Well done!

    • Tee says:

      You & I have the same theory. I’ve been saying this is what happened. All we had to do is put it into sequence and it will tell a story.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Beautiful analysis — great work putting the available evidence together in an understandable, accurate picture! I think the Prosecution is building the foundation using the same playbook and is prosecuting the case masterfully because of it. I especially like your last paragraph. Kudos!

    • gbrbsb says:

      Agreed with your scenario unabogie, albeit I have some differences from after they go down.

      IMO GZ was underneath, not because he was being held down or assaulted by Trayvon as appears at first sight, but because GZ was holding on to him trying to retain him until the police came.

      With GZ on the bottom is how John saw when he described them moving horizontally, without rolling or changing position, from grass to pavement and from pavement to grass, but as Amsterdam and another poster noted in this kind of position the one underneath doesn’t have control of the movement, so if Trayvon were merely holding GZ down or assaulting him they would have stayed in the same place and the only reason I can come up with of why they moved is if GZ was held on to Trayvon in a grappling hold from underneath while Trayvon was trying to move and/or scramble forward in an attempt to get away.

      IMO the arms John thought were the person on top pushing or holding the person on the bottom down, was Trayvon pushing down on to either the ground or GZ’s chest in an attempt to propel himself up and away, while the person on the bottom John saw trying to raise himself up was in fact GZ clutching on to Trayvon while being raised up and down each time Trayvon tried to lift himself off. This scenario is also why Austin saw only one person lying on the ground, because GZ clutching Trayvon with his legs, a skinny stick of a kid, in the dark could easily look like one person. Furthermore, Austin thought the person had broken his leg, but why would a kid think of a broken leg? Maybe, and this is a shot in the dark, without it properly registering, Austin actually saw GZ’s leg bent and up high as if in the air but in fact locked with his other leg around Trayvon’s waist?

      I also believe GZ’s head injuries came from his head bumping the ground while he was trying to hold Trayvon down and while Trayvon struggled to free himself from GZ’s hold held down by GZ’s weight each time he tried to lever himself up and scramble forward it caused GZ’s torso to rise and fall causing his head to hit the ground, and if there was no nose bleed at that point as the defence seem to be implying then it may well be Trayvon whacked him one during this struggle in self defence and why it only began to run after he got up.

      As to their position at the time of the shot, I personally would not be surprised that forensic experts show GZ could have shot from below (with Trayvon trying to rise there would have been enough space and angle and from underneath could also explain how the entry hole is under the button), and imo GZ shot either because Trayvon desperate punched him and he became furious, or when he realised he was unable to hold Trayvon any longer and as Trayvon was trying to raise up he fired into his chest, all of which imo explains better how Selma and Mary (and maybe the teacher too), who came out more or less with the shot, saw GZ rise as if from on top but with Trayvon lying face down, imo not very feasible, as either Trayvon was on top, or they must have missed something.

      As far as I can see, narrative and scenario fits with all witness testimonies and also fits with all the evidence (if the forensics come in that the shot could have, or was, fired from below). It fits with none of the witnesses hearing sounds of slapping, thuds, or punches (btw there is one very loud noise that could be a punch or slap on the 991 recording with the screams and a few other bangs etc.), as well as with all of them only hearing scuffling on grass and seeing wrestling. It fits with the fact none of George’s DNA was found on Trayvon, with GZ’s minor injuries to the back of his head, and with the total lack of defensive injuries on either. Indeed, unless I am missing something, it fits with everything and it doesn’t depend on witness lying or being in some kind of conspiracy together, narratives that imo will not go down at all well with a jury unless there is proof they are true and the witnesses have been duly impeached.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I wonder if the two younger asst prosecutors are former wrestlers, who would recognize the possible/probable altercation dynamics.

        • gbrbsb says:

          @Cercando Luce
          Yes. Either that, or I they bring in a couple of MMA or whatever specialists/experts to demonstrate the impossibilities of what GZ claims. I mean just try lifting someone’s head up and slam it down. Even if you were able to get a grip, you are lifting the neck too with all the muscles and the upper torso along with it and with the person presumably struggling, trying to grab and hit you, push you away or pull you close. The whole idea is so utterly ridiculous.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Unabogie. Sorry if I appear to have butted in here. I only saw all the replies to your post after I finally clicked “post comment” just a while ago as I started to write my reply yesterday soon after you posted and left it open overnight to finish it this morning without having refreshed the page.

        I have had the same basic theory as you since John’s testimony and amsterdam’s comment to it in respect of the one on the top having control over the movement of the one below, and posted about it several times since then. As you, I have never believed that calling or even inferring witnesses were liars, or that GZ shooting was pre-meditated, was useful unless there was hard evidence to prove it, which imo there isn’t. I further feel that even though it may well be correct that the prosecution doesn’t “have” to demonstrate anything other than that what GZ says is not possible, imo if the prosecution fails to show, or at least infer, insinuate, or hint at how it could have happened in a way that fits with the witnesses’ testimonies as well as the evidence then that in my view would be more or less handing the jury a reasonable doubt on a plate.

  87. EdgySF says:

    Wouldn’t it be nice if, upon seeing the evidence, popular opinion swung wildly toward Trayvon?

    Like, a complete turnaround in the media….like when they turned on Palin or accepted gay rights?

    • Tzar says:

      popular opinion is with Trayvon
      these polls you have seen lately are manipulated
      remember 2million signed

      • EdgySF says:

        Thanks. I’m in Orlando and work almost exclusively with fox viewers who support Fogen.

        However, one such coworker, turned pale upon reading today’s news. I didn’t know why until I got home: it was a good day for the prosecution. Nice guys, but totally isolated from diverse perspectives. (And eagerly angered.)

        I just wish the media weren’t so pro Fogen. Maybe it’s because they know African Americans will rarely if ever win in court.

      • aussie says:

        HAHAHA. In LA Times, on story about medical examiner saying GZ’s injuries were insignificant. first comment is

        ” So Zimmerman is innocent after all”.

        West should ask every single GZ supporter “do you understand English?”

        They’re already starting with how every single witness is a proven liar (oh except John Good of recanted MMA fame) being paid to lie. Some “citizens’ grand jury” has indicted Corey for malpractice for bringing the case (based on lying in the affidavit and not including the GZ bloody head photo in it).

        Looks like to some people the only fair trial is one that goes the way they want.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Don’t forget the other 300,000 people who signed– it was 2.3 million.

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      Stop, Edgy…you just made me snort Pepsi out my nose!

  88. Mojo says:

    I’m still curious to know, as they haven’t done it yet, if the prosecution will bring up:
    A) GZ claims he did not get out of his truck to follow Trayvon, but got out for one reason only… to get an address on RVC;
    B) He claims in reenactment that he told dispatch, while he was over on RVC, to have the police meet him at his truck and that’s when he started back.

    versus the NEN call, when asked where he wants to meet police

    A) He doesn’t give them the address he found over on RVC;
    B) He doesn’t tell dispatch to meet him at his truck or the mailbox or anywhere else… he asks them to call him when they get there

    • fauxmccoy says:

      A1 was brought up in interviews with singleton/serino along with their testimony as well as dispather’s. the remainder of the issues would be brought up in closing arguments using above mentioned testimony as ‘proof’.

  89. Judy75201 says:

    Why would the improper question about Serino’s opinion only trigger a mistrial if the prosecutor had asked it? Thanks.

    • Xena says:

      The prosecutor is the part that filed a motion in limini to prevent the mentioning or asking of questions as to whether GZ should have been arrested. The defense tried that theory a long time ago in court and pleadings, and Bernie argued that two courts had established there was probable cause.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Thanks. (I probably should have been able to connect those dots.)

      • gbrbsb says:

        As one of the warriors with command of all things locatable, you wouldn’t happen to have the link to the State’s recent discovery on the 27th with a load of documents and videos?

        • Xena says:

          @gbrbsb. Lonnie Starr maintains a site like a library for documents in the case. It has a search engine in the upper right-hand corner.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Thank you and will check but it is a load of stuff only released 3 days ago including videos for Khols and Sams near 7/11 as well as at Lakes Edge, and I don’t see anyone mention it so I don’t think we lot have seen it yet so I doubt he has it yet.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Checked it and he has at least some of the docs but can’t see the videos. TL says they were filed at court but I don’t know the link.

          • Xena says:

            @gbrbsb. The defense put those videos in discovery months ago, but the actual vids were not made public.

  90. Trained Observer says:

    Thank you for the briefing on how this could/would have triggered a mistrial, had circumstances been different. I hope the feds are waiting with a charge if anything goes awry with this trail.

    As for O’Mara sleazy moves, that’s been well established for all of us (even without law degrees) to see.

    • groans says:

      As much as MOM whines and cries about supposed State misbehavior and seeks sanctions against them, he should be held in CONTEMPT. He intentionally violated a Court Order!

      • ic2fools says:

        the both of them should be held in Contempt and fined. i’m patiently awaiting Judge Nelsons’ ruling of State Motio’n Inquiry on west.

        for a so called seasoned litigator west would always ‘ask’ Judge Nelson when she would tell him No, irrelevant, out of scope, move on, ‘well can i?’ how in the world would a seasoned litigator have to aski ‘can i ask this or can i say that’. albeit he won’t get another position as a public defender for any court.

        well he can always play litigator at home with his kids.

  91. Judy75201 says:

    Can someone identify what was redacted in the Hannity replay today? THX.

    • Xena says:

      I haven’t watched that part of trial yet, but after I do, I’ll point out the redactions for you.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Thanks so very much!!!

        • Xena says:

          @Judy75201. The beginning of the interview was redacted and began with GZ talking about “that night,” a portion after GZ says he got from under Trayvon, and the rest of his asking for an apology, giving an apology, mourning over the death of his unborn children and all the stuff he said about race and his actions dividing the country.

        • Xena says:

          Sorry. Forgot. The part where O’Mara says he was going to have a pre-trial immunity hearing was also redacted. In fact, nothing O’Mara said was in the interview played in court.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      the beginning where he said he had not had time to reflect on things, but that while in jail, he had plenty of time to reflect.

      (think because of jail reference)
      i’m sure others could identify more.

      • Nef05 says:

        I missed the Hannity thing, but I wish they had played that part. IMO- it shows the jury how he will open up his mouth and lie, instinctively. That it is more likely when he speaks he’s lying rather than speaking truth, and he does so gratuitously. For me, those opening lines illustrated to me how he lies without even thinking about it. He lies the way the rest of us tell the truth.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i think both legal teams and the court would wish to avoid his mention of being in the pokey so as to not prejudice the jury and ensure a fair trial.

          yes, as far as fogen statements go, it’s a spectacular doozy! i would rather that we snicker about it here though and provide no grounds for appeal.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      There were actually two segments, if I remember correctly, though one may have been unaired but posted on the website.

    • Ty Flair says:

      The part with his cousin I know that for sure.

  92. lady2soothe says:

    Ahhhh, I’m # 2!

  93. Deborah Moore says:

    I’m rather a newbie to the details of the case, have watched here since they starting jury selection.
    I didn’t know this Osterman character before.
    He’s just the kind of guy I don’t care for.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Deborah — The Fogens, squatting with rent unpaid, fled their R@TL unit the day after Trayvon’s murder, and headed for the Osterman abode where they stayed for a while. The Ostermans, as I recall, introduced Fogen to ShelLie.

      • Trained Observer says:

        The Ostermans also appeared on Dr. Phil, shilling for their “book” and defending their pal, making fools of themselves along the way. At some point since the shooting, Osterman has declared with great drama of his BFF, “I’d die for him, but I wouldn’t lie for him” or some such tripe.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Thank you, Trained Observer.
          Good to have that background.

          • rayvenwolf says:

            More on the Zimmerman/Osterman connection. anyone feel free to correct as I am too tired to break out my old notes.
            -GZ worked with the Wife.
            -Wife introduced he and ShelLie also officiated their wedding
            -Threw GZ’s “graduation party” and may or may not have been aware that he had in fact not graduated
            -Osterman took GZ to his shooting practice.
            -provided GZ with a second gun when he went off the radar.
            -Claims that the book he wrote was word for word what GZ told him, even though some parts clearly contradict GZ’s statements up to that point.
            -Was called by ShelLie after the shooting and she quote said, “George shot someone again.”
            -Put himself into the investigation to a degree; being at R@TL when the walk through re-enactment was done, took GZ to the police station, casually spoke with some officers.
            -aired some dirty Zimmerman family laundry in his self published book.

            He’s a creep. He’s shady and frankly GZ should learn to cultivate some better friends who know how to keep their traps shut.

          • aussie says:

            “shot someone ELSE” they said, not shot someone again.

            Not only took GZ to shooting practice but advised him on and helped him to buy the gun “to suit his needs and budget” (the cheapest available about $250).

    • ay2z says:

      Dr. Phil exposed him well and good. LLMPapa has several videos that include best ever buddy, Osterman taught him how to shoot, advised him on the gun, but today showed how he had no idea of the holster, which wasn’t leather but didn’t have a safety strap to secure the gun.

      Osterman was beaming today. His kin folk are famous for their movies and gun handling abilities. Oone most famous and look alike relatives from the movie industry is never found without his gun..

    • ay2z says:

      Osterman got a plug in for the NRA and the everyone should carry a gun proponents. Much of the defendant’s early support came from belonged to the pro-gun advocates who were the ones who put forward the SYG laws in the first place (so I’ve heard). And of course, Fox and Hannity had some arrangment that they tucked under cover, maybe today with the show in evidence, was payday for GZ, he was sure smiling about something when it finished playing today.

      Here’s a list of titles that you might like to look at to fill in your background. 🙂

      The Book: Part One

      and do a Q search on LLMPapa’s channel for the following additional short and pointed gems:

      A Pretender

      Makes You Wonder

      Osterman’s BS, Part One

      Osterman’s BS, Part Two

      Bad Moon For Zimmerman

      Quack Quack (and it’s companion piece, George’s Bling)


  94. Cercando Luce says:

    I hope defendant’s motivation, to act like a police officer and kill at will, will be brought to light. The light at the heart of the matter.

  95. Ms.X says:

    OK, tres.

  96. Ms.X says:


  97. Deborah Moore says:

    Not Toozies.

  98. disappointed says:

    Thank you Fred! Oh and he also said Trayvon skipped away. That is huge imo, it is not everyday you run into a skipping thug. SMDH. And what is this sh with thee gun? It’s a gun fool.

    • Thanks for reminding me of his “skipping” comment. Gave you a h/t.

      • disappointed says:


      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Professor and all

        Re Profiling and the Hannity interview

        There is, IMO, another very important aspect of the Hannity interview which Prosecutors may have in mind: Profiling. In that Hannity interview GZ rejected any suggestions that he called the cops exclusively on Black males. GZ claimed that his NEN/911 calls also included “Whites” and “Latinos”. The NEN calls however show calls regarding exclusively AA juveniles. The fact the GZ lied about this shows that he (GZ) was conscious of the fact that he was profiling individuals based on their race and the illegality thereof, and lied in the Hannity interview to hide the truth of that fact.

    • lets not forget the shimmy his azz from the concrete with Tray on top of him….LOL just funny

      • riisey007 says:

        That is really important because if he could do that then he could have thrown Martin off of him. He was only 158 lbs. He was shimmying but would not hit Martin? I would say Zimmerman wanted to die or he is a big wuss. It seems to me Martin never did any of that, if anything perhaps they wrestled but that’s it.

    • ay2z says:

      skipping, swaying, shimmying stupidity

  99. fauxmccoy says:


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s