Monday, June 24, 2013
Good morning:
We have completed the first day of trial and it was bizarre.
Jim Guy’s opening statement was unlike any opening statement that I have ever heard. Focused and powerful it seemed more like a persuasive closing argument or summation of the evidence than an opening statement.
Opening statements are opportunities to educate jurors, who likely do not know very much about the case. Therefore, the emphasis should be on clarifying rather than selling a point of view. That is why lawyers preface statements about the evidence during opening statements with the introductory phrase, “We believe the evidence will show,” or establish something certain about the case.
The goal is to keep the presentation simple, accurate and relatively easy to recall (the KISS rule). Argument, spin and minutiae are not helpful.
The defense opening statement was too long, too argumentative and too detailed.
On multiple occasions Mr. West violated a fundamental rule of opening statements by asserting certain facts as undisputed when they are disputed. He also made false assertions of fact that can easily be disproven.
The prosecution called four witnesses:
1. Chad Joseph
He is Brandi Green’s 15-year-old son. He and Trayvon were playing a video game when Trayvon said he was going to walk to the 711 and asked him if he wanted anything. He said Skittles. Trayvon left and he never saw him again. He was wearing headphones and could not hear.
2. Andrew Gaugh
He was the clerk at the 711 who handled Trayvon’s transaction. He does not have an independent recollection of the transaction.
3. Sean Knopke
He was the 911 operator who fielded GZ’s call. Denies that he would have told GZ to folloe or find Trayvon and call him back with the update. They have a policy that prohibits doing that.
4. Ramona Rumph
She is the custodian of records for the 911 call center. She brought the records for all of GZ calls.
O’Mara objected when the prosecutor began to question her about a previous 911 call by the defendant that is almost identical. The implication is that the defendant has a script that he uses to report suspicious activity.
Basis of the objection: inadmissible uncharged misconduct pursuant to Rule 404(b).
Discussion ensued without a resolution. Judge Nelson recessed the trial until 8:30 am EDT when she will resume the discussion regarding O’Mara’s objection.
She told the jury to return at 9 am.
SUMMARY: Prosecution off to a good start. Defense stumbled badly out of the gate with a poor opening statement and both defense counsel exhibited poor judgment, lack of respect for Judge Nelson and the dignity of the Court, and anger management issues.
Defense hostility and lack of respect for Judge Nelson is obvious. The jurors cannot have failed to see it and likely were offended. Difficult to respect defense counsel when they act like spoiled children.
I will see you all at 8:30 am EDT.
Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbcnews.com/52117880/
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She saw what she saw, and her testimony has been virtually the same throughout. She’s witness 2. The jury could just as easily see it as Omara is a sleezeball attorney and his client and him are lying for fame and fortune and trying to cover up a murder, as the motive is there. I dont feel Omara phased her one bit nor helped his case one bit.
He is an engineer at Exxon and they drug test regularly.
You guys you can not put much weight on kids talking about drinking, smoking weed and partying.
The reason I say this is because kids talk to be important or to fit in but that does not mean they are doing the things they twit about or put on facebook.
For example I don’t do social media but I have a fake page to track my kids 23, 19, and 17. The 23 yr old has a pic of him in his car full of smoke with a blunt in his and with the words smoked out.
The funny thing is this kid does not drink or do any kind of drugs. He has an app on his phone that he uses to manipulate the picture to make himself look as if there is smoke and the blunt was imposed to appear in his mouth. I did not believe it until he did the same thing with my picture.
Professor Leatherman has begun a new thread.
Now that I think of it, the motion that we should hear about tomorrow, to exclude the prior phone reports (whether NEN or 911 or a mix) from Fogen, should have ZERO legal support and Judge Nelson absolutely should deny it. After all, the “prior acts” indicated are not alleged to be prior “bad acts” because Fogen is not being prosecuted for making phone calls to the police. Nor is calling the police illegal or even unlawful. Furthermore, the DEFENSE brought in the 2/26/2012 NEN call; how can prior such calls be excluded as “irrelevant”?
Of course, the NEN calls are business records of the police department. Just as Wendy Dorival was relevant to show prior events that had a bearing or could have a bearing on what happened that night, the prior calls to police would have just as much bearing on what happened.
Lastly, “There have been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood” and “These assholes, they always get away” and “they always run away quickly to the back entrance of the neighborhood” and “I had seen a suspicious guy at my friend’s [Taaffe’s] house” are all indicative of the fact that prior events led Fogen to take the actions he took that night.
I cannot imagine what legal excuse there could be to exclude the prior calls. I sure hope Judge Nelson doesn’t “come up” with one.
She will so don’t get your hope to high.
Woow- such a negative Nelly! Send some positive thought forms to JN to follow established case law.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Naw I’m usually positive Penelope but JN has put a damper on my tude lately they way in which she has been ruling. I am so hyped that I can’t see the big picture.
Question: Apparently O’Mara was on Anderson Cooper tonight talking about the trial. I really don’t know, but that seems way out of line for an attorney who is in the midst of a trial going on national TV and discussing it. Seems pretty unethical (why am I not surprised?), at the least.
whoops ~ my question is: Is he legally allowed to do that?
MOM isn’t an attorney, he is a disgrace. He wanted this case to propel him as the KC Anthony case did Baez but all he is doing is making himself seem stupid, petty, and incompetent. Come on now being disrespectful to a judge, hostile toward witnesses, mean mugging the prosecutors, and most of all the nasty race baiting. Now tell me is that the actions of a respectable attorney.
This case has been all about money for MOM and company. I guarantee he has pocketed a lot from that website and probably found a way to receive funds directly.
He did not spend money on this case and had the never to renovate his office. Didn’t he ask the court to force an expert to lower his fee?
What attorney would reach out to racist blogger for assistance on a case? I hope every judge he go before going forward remember the way he has conducted himself and not give him any leeway in any of his cases.
O’Thug is a disgrace as well as a B*****D and, his karma is not too far off and, the same goes for all involved in that side of the aisle. I have never witnessed a defense as DIRTY and THUGISH as this one. Biaz was dirty but, this man here and, (I use the term man very loosely) is a disgrace to mankind in general.
I feel so bad for Trayvon and his family because of the way they have been treated by some in this country.
I watched the Casey Anthony trial and like this one I became emotionally involved. Jose Baez was criticized for his objections and inexperience but he ended up wining. The jurors in that case infuriated me because they seemed to believe George was involved with no evidence and they wanted to know how exactly Caylee died. Well a murderer is going to try to cover things up so there is no way of knowing every detail of the murder.
I agree and, I think those folks in the media should be ashamed for even giving him a platform to discuss this trial. this wasn’t done in the Jodi Arias trial by her attorneys so, why would HLN and Anderson Cooper even entertain having this man on their shows discussing this?
Once again I am laying this at JN’S door because, she has refused to muzzle this idiot, not once but twice. why would a judge do that, especially in a high profile case such as this one.
I wonder what are they going to do about ShelLie’s stunt from Monday? you would think she has learned a lesson from her perjury charge. I think this W(B)itch is a former passenger on the short school bus and, I’m as serious as a heart attack.
@ladystclaire
scroll up top I just said the same thing about Fogen. I believe both of them are retards. What a couple!!!!!
SPD is to blame for this entire situation. They knew that boy was a loose canon and did nothing. 911/NEN saw him as a nuisance.
JN need to grow a pair and put a muzzle on MOM.
So now O’mar is taking the role of legal analyst about the trial?
Isn’t there anything the court can do about O’mar in the media during trial? There has to be a law! Defense in the media right after trial recesses sure as heck should not work in defense favor.
Omar Anderson Cooper interview 6/25/2013
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/
Omar interview with Anderson Cooper link. Omar talks about west knock knock joke, frye hearing and Judge Nelson. JN needs to GAG rabid O’Dog from giving interviews during proceedings!!!!! Enough already, didn’t she already once tell them about running to media after in chambers discussion. Honestly, I hope Bernie brings this up in Court tomorrow
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/
Is Fogen on something? Do anyone know if he was taking any type of anti depressant, Ritalin, or some other drugs on a daily. He looks doped up every day as if they have him on something to keep him calm and from fidgeting.
Woow, he sure acts like it. His eyes keep closing and he looks like he’s off in la-la land.
When he went to jail, he asked Shellie to get his meds for him, one of which was Remeron (mirtazapine), an antidepressant. He was also on Adderall, Librax (part benzodiazepine therefore akin to Valium, and usually prescribed for irritable bowel syndrome), and Restoril (temazepam), which is another benzodiazepine for sleep. (And it’s awesome, btw.)
I guess when you kill a child like he did, something is or someone is making their presence known to only him. did you guys see the way he reacted, when they showed those photos of Trayvon?
Wow. So now people have found Rachel Jeantel’s (DeeDee) twitter page and are already talking down on her:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/twitter/rachel-jeantel-758403
These people act as if they never drunk alcohol or occasionally smoked weed or knew anybody who has.
Hopefully the prosecution doesn’t allow O’Mara to badger Rachel like they allowed him to do the last witness.
“smoked weed”?…..Thanks for the reminder…..time I visit a certain Caterpillar.. 🙂
I told you guys yesterday when Rachel’s name was mention in court the Treepers were on the hunt for her. One of them posted the info for the wrong Rachel and the admin told them not post personal info b/c they were previously accused of doxing.
The prosecution need to protect this child. The comments those backwooded a-holes are making about her burns me up.
Woow!~Well NOW it’s more than mere accusations. They can catch these lowlives redhanded and prosecute them harshly. I hope that includes jail time for those scum.
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She’s basically just a kid and I sure hope he doesn’t do that to her. If he does, he’s lower than anything I can even begin to compare him to. If the prosecution and the judge lets him get away with that, then I’m going to be really angry and disgusted.
DruDo~ Remember that court is part theater.There are 6 women jurors and a woman judge who worked as a child advocate. Bernie and etc will definitely be safeguarding a child from MOM’s badgering if for no other reason than to score points with all the mothers in their audience.
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That is just sad but the prosecution should have seen it coming. The girlfriend’s parents should have some legal reps for her. When Trayvon died they searched for his sites, they are digging through witness sites, so I’m not shocked their in hers.
I deleted my FB last year but re opened it to stay in touch with family. I may delete all this stuff again.
Maybe someone needs to send this BS to the prosecution so, the authorities can act accordingly. this kind of shit doesn’t make any sense. there is not a one of those Ignoramuses at TCSH, with a dog in this fight.
IMO these people are dangerous and, they are out to harm this witness. why wasn’t anything done about them, when it was found out what they were doing?
Yall need to relax, Omara did nothing to the last witness, I think you are overreacting
What did he do?
Witness 2 did tell Serino there was a chase towards the T
Why do you think Bernie knew to ask her the direction of the chase she heard?
Omara already lost the jury by being shown to be a liar by the CSI Tech, the photos, and this witness today
Seriously, once the medical experts come in, they will look like even bigger liars because none of them stated that his injuries were consistent with his claims
Fogen does not look like he was beaten
Lastly the jury saw Trayvon’s hands up close, and like Guy told the jury, there is no DNA
Omara will do nothing to the witnesses, especially since it’s an all female jury and most of the witnesses are females
Jun- maybe you don’t get the subtle interplay and nuances of the way MOM belittled, disrespected and tainted the witness. THAT is what we are talking about. He subtly called her a liar. He implied she came forward for money and fame. He asked convoluted questions that made no sense to confuse her and unbalance her. And he kept badgering her because she would NOT give him the answer he wanted to hear vMOM us a putz.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Well, just because he implied it, it does not necessarily make it true. All he did was repeatedly say that the left to right thing was new, yet, they claimed it in their opening statement. As for the her testimony, he did not really prove that she was lying, because he could not prove that. She saw what she saw, and her testimony has been virtually the same throughout. She’s witness 2. The jury could just as easily see it as Omara is a sleezeball attorney and his client and him are lying for fame and fortune and trying to cover up a murder, as the motive is there. I dont feel Omara phased her one bit nor helped his case one bit. Considering West’s opening, the CSI Tech just made the defense team look like liars with the beating claims, because they all saw the photos today. They also saw Trayvon’s hands up close today, and it supports Guy’s opening, and it makes Fogen’s and Omara’s story look fishy. Lastly the CSI tech just stated that they found no blood on the sidewalk or the grass, yet the jury saw there was blood on Fogen’s head. That makes their rain wash theory ridiculous, because, why did it not wash off Fogen’s head and the blood also dried?
Omara’s gonna look like a prick attacking a girl in front of a female judge and female jurors
He’s not gonna do himself any favors attacking witness 8, especially with BS like drinking or smoking weed
I watched another case, and the attorney that tried attacking a witness over marijuana use in the past, the jury did not like that and felt the person was just veering off the case of what is relevant
They are not that bad. She is feeling a lot of stress over this obviously. I think many-a-adult may have a drinking problem when their BF was murdered immediately after talking on the phone with them. She is obviously hurting and has been warned that it will get ugly in court.
I think that the prosecution will be more aggressive from here on out. The waters have been tested and now they see what their dealing with… a divorce lawyer with tricks up his sleeve. I’m optimistic that they should have their gaurds up the rest of the way and perhaps protect these next witnesses better. Who knows? Maybe we might see a phony doctor’s note and prescriptions? I for one don’t think Bahadoor’s statement is as damning compared to Mary Cutcher’s.
I’m sorry, YQ – I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. The prosecution has known what they were dealing with for months and more. They;ve known about O’Mara and his tricks since the first bond hearing when he started putting MMA-style on the record, knowing it had been recanted.
I don’t know if you were posting here, when this response was written by BDLR, but allow me to link you to the professor’s article on it. I think you will see BDLR knows exactly what he’s dealing with and has no compunction about breaking it down.
For everyone else: Here is a clear reminder of why we should have a little faith in BDLR and his ability to handle these jokers. He’s already shown us, in no uncertain terms that he’s got this!
http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/29/bernies-epic-smackdown-of-mark-omara/
Nef05- OH YES! The Epic Smack down! The one that had MOM and West crying for sanctions! “Mommy mommy, Bernie hit me back!”
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@Cielo62-
IKR! I had to read it again, just for fun! 😀
Her statement is actually damning because it proves Fogen is a liar and her testimony is supported by witness 18, 1, and DD, which proves Fogen continued his pursuit
Then after they can bring in Fogen’s GPS records from his phone LOL
Omara really did not do much to be real, honestly, what did he do?
He did nada
JUN-
Just for reference purposes, this was W1. Her sister W2, has not testified and some have posted here earlier today that she probably won’t.
I hope the prosecution team will be me aggressive in this objection when Rachel take the stand. I do not want MOM doing to that child what he did to witness 1 today.
To the posters somewhere above, I was bored on a short break today and ventured over the the TreeSewer just to see what those crazies were saying and on poster mentioned Trayvons school records and MOM should have released them to show Trayvon had a history of getting in trouble. That is why I asked how did they get a copy of his records because that poster seemed to have viewed the records.
Is that guy Sundance an attorney b/c those folks refer to him for legal advice.
Crackhead is nothing more than a manipulator of those who have conspiracy tendencies and who are true christian racists. He feeds them well.
I think that should be “true christian” racists.
From what I hear, he’s a grocer by day – someone once said he’s a manager at Winn-Dixie or Publix or something.
Why is that bigots, the really racist mean spirited people always call themselves Christians, are poor, uneducated, most very unattractive, and down right ignorant?
Because people believe “Christianity” is the “right” religion…
MMP…a happy atheist.. 🙂
@Woow! Please do not lump me in with people who say they are Christian, but impugn the true nature and ways of Christ.
A tree is known by its fruit. An onion can tell you it is an apple and might deceive you if you have never seen or tasted either.
I live in the south and I have noticed the most beat up pick ups have the rebel flag stickers on the bumper.
O’Mara is under court order not to release them. A minor’s school records are an issue of privacy. Actually, I think anyone’s school records are an issue of privacy. The prosecution released fogen’s by mistake and apologized.
As for the crackhouse – they don’t have the records. They know O’Mara does and like any other day that ends with “y”, they ASSUME that since Trayvon is a “thug” his school records will reflect that. Based on statements by his teachers and friends, and even on his Tweets and emails (even the hacked ones), he was basically a good and decent kid, doing and saying the kind of things teenagers do and say, preparing to follow in his brother’s footsteps and attend college. The crackhouse can literally kiss the crack of my @$$. They are disgusting beyond belief.
I think that was witness 2 today but to be honest, Omara did not do anything to her, IMO. Witness 2 did say that she saw a chase towards the “T”. Witness 2 saying left to right, is a different way of saying the exact same direction. But I could be wrong. If it’s witness 1, then honestly, Bernie asked her about the direction and she explained it. I dont see how that could be interpreted any differently. The only reason Omara makes a fuss is because the testimony contradicts Fogen’s bullshit. But that is not the end of it.
I am responding here because I don’t remember who said it. There are a lot of comments that I ignore because it’s not necessary to respond but today I felt compelled. This is not a Democrat only movement. 2 million people signed the petition including people like me who yes voted for Mitt Romney. (His comments on the case were measured and decent unlike Santorum and Gingrich) I am not an idiot, self hater, or bigot and I really don’t appreciate being insulted.
Sybrina Fulton said this isn’t about black or white it’s about right or wrong. I assume she would also say this is not about right or left. When this case is concluded I’m sure I’ll exit and maybe unfollow people on twitter I don’t know. For the time being I ask you be respectful of the diversity of thought here. The prof and his wife allowed me to make comments on the DP that conflicted with their own views and I appreciate that. I would hope you would mirror that.
Let’s not re hash election 2012. Obama won, I hope you all are getting everything you voted for. No need to debate it. It’s done.
Make no mistake, this crime, this trial, the shared collective experience, and this conflict are most definitely about race.
At best, it’s a layered experience. We can look at it from different levels and there’s definitely a racial perspective at the very least in the rabid support of Fogen by racists. His father has definitely outed himself as a racist with his new book. Fogen is no stranger to racism.
I maintain the racial issue is the most fundamental of all. Consider what I said about allowing Obama a win as a resignation of white political privilege. Allowing Trayvon to be who he was — a non-thug wholly innocent victim of a race-based crime — is to many an existential crisis of belief and a direct threat to what they consider their God-given power and privilege.
Fogen Senior DID out himself. He’s not the sharpest tool in the racist shed!
It should be more about race for the GZ fans, but there is a bigger picture to it all.
But more importantly it’s about human rights. Trayvon could have been any race but the gist of it is that what Fogen did was still wrong. The race part is the under-lying or over-arching issue. It’s just important to convict to be clear on what should and shouldn’t be happening to 17 year old kids walking home at night.
Fogen profiled, followed, confronted and tried to detain that KID, not just black kid. Black or white, that would still be immoral.
I disagee. The racial profiling is oozing out of the NEN call and later statements.
Okay let me clarify since I was not clear. Of course this case is about race. GZ followed Trayvon because he was a young black male. What I said was Ms. Sybrina said that justice for her son is not a black or white thing, it’s right or wrong. All I am saying is I understand the majority view here. But this isn’t Common Dreams or DailyKos, no need to insult everyone who didn’t vote the way you did last year. My opinion on how Obama is handling foreign policy and economic policy is irrelevant to the topic. And it is also not relevant for people here to attack the character of anyone who voted for Romney.
I have no problem calling out the racist right, I do it all the time and will continue to do it until I stop following politics. GZ’s dad a few weeks after national attention started attacking Obama and Holder spouting Hannity talking points. Of course the right will be skewered. Cool. But Republican doesn’t equal Zidiot, I bet Condi Rice and Michael Steele aren’t Zidiots. On several occasions they have both refused to give cover for the right when they were wrong.
I didn’t insult the Republican body politic. I wrote what is true about Republicans in government and social conservatism in the larger context. This is based on four years of research and critical analysis grounded in established social and cultural theory, and has passed peer review.
Shari- in other words, it’s not personal.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Yeah, I deal with Romney and the election night meltdown in another chapter.
I only skimmed your post because it was so long and I’m going to bed. If you say it was a misunderstanding then fine. See yall tomorrow.
@Puck –
I can’t agree with your statement, “… this crime, this trial, the shared collective experience, and this conflict are most definitely about race.”
I have learned a lot about race, thought so much more about it from my colleagues on this site, feel the dangers and inequities far more deeply – and constantly – than ever before in my life.
But for me, as part of “the shared collective experience” for the past year, this crime, this trial, ABOVE ALL, even above race, is about DEATH.
Well, that’s your take. Mine’s based on my expertise.
We’re not all going to agree all the time. Some of the evidence will not be in our favor or will be able to be explained away by the defense. This case will not hinge on one witness, one piece of evidence or the screams on the tape. All the evidence together tells a story all the witness statement put into sequence tells a story. We just have to let it play out literally in court & trust that justice will be rendered. No matter murder 2 or manslaughter it’s the same sentence in my state of Florida, 20 yrs to life if you fire a gun in the commission of a crime not even the judge can change your time, it’s mandatory. Murder 2 we pray because I believe his heart was open for the word to see with that NEN call. I’ll will murder 2
Amen.
And I’ll calm down….unless JN doesn’t allow those previous NEN calls by the defendant and I’ll warn everyone now, I’m subject to go a little ballistic lol
@tashatexas77048, didn’t the dumbfense agree to those calls coming in and, now they are bitching and whining about not wanting them in? JN gave into them as far as not allowing the experts testify about who is screaming on one of the 911 calls. IMO, she should allow these calls to come in and, just let dumb and dumber stew in their own shit.
It’s not right for them to keep having everything in this trial their way. also, I don’t see how anybody on that jury, could look at this child’s body and, allow him to get away with what he did. I also hope for those who always made stupid remarks, about which photo of Trayvon was being shown in the media, I hope they got their chance to see him just as he was.
WE have some pretty “SICK” and, heartless people in this country and, that is sad. it seems that the “BEST” country in the world, has the most ignorant heartless people in the world as well. I for one will “NEVER” forget how this child and his family, has been so disrespected and mistreated by some in this country.
Those people and, their attitudes towards this child is why I can’t see how some see this as the best country in the world.
Yup one thing that broke my heart is how small and helpless he looked. He was so skinny he reminded me of my son. He eats and eats but gains no weight.
I had a black Zidiot on twitter tell me in all caps that “TRAYVON WASN’T 12 HE WAS ALMOST 18 AND HIGH HOODIED” Can you believe that? They are making up words to try to make him scary. He was a skinny little kid. Just walking home.
Here’s the last bit of the conclusion to that epic paper on the Tea Party and new Right I’ve mentioned a few times:
“Social conservatism is by its very nature untenable, for even as it rams a cudgel into the engine of social progress, it is ultimately incapable of countering social phenomena such as changing demographics that reflect a growing rejection of, and open disdain for, regressivism. Society marches on, regardless of what the Tea Party wants. Just as Paul Ryan said: Republicans weren’t counting on the “urban” vote turning out as it did. And their attempts at minority voter disenfranchisement through voter identification laws—fundamental violences upon democracy—didn’t work, either. Nothing seemed to work this time around, not even good ol’ time Jim Crow poll shenanigans updated for the twenty-first century.
And now they are beside themselves trying to figure out what to do next. Who will be their saviour in 2016? Or will they need a sacrificial lamb if Hillary Clinton decides to run? The buzz around New Jersey Governor Chris Christie as a new hope faded dramatically in the wake of Hurricane Sandy, when, purely in the humanitarian interest of his constituents, he worked alongside Barack Obama in mutual cooperation between levels of government, each evincing leadership and a respect for each other in spite of ideological differences. Christie’s 2013 CPAC invitation didn’t get lost in the mail. He was banished for deigning to associate with the black president during a natural disaster. They invited Donald Trump instead.
All the while, the Republicans maintain their grip on Congress, killing measures such as gun safety legislation, pointlessly delaying cabinet confirmation hearings, or using the filibuster in the Senate to prevent mere up-or-down votes on any legislation that might remotely make Barack Obama look good. Allowing Obama to win on the larger conflict that underlies the issues would mean a de facto resignation of the white political privilege that formed the foundation of America. Such a submission would be the ultimate American role reversal as its original sin is confronted once and for all, with stalemate not an option. The mythologized embodiment of Christian whiteness that for centuries signified the ‘real’ America would recede further into the realm of myth, replaced by a growing diversity and progressivism that in a sense rejects this American mythos, since it operates in—and celebrates—the reality of contemporary life, rather than the realishness of that vaguely familiar yet indefinable era (because it never existed) that the Tea Party so desperately wants to return to. It’s not so much a fear of accepting the apparent ‘loss’ of their country as it is the terrifying realization that it is not theirs alone to claim, much less take back on their own terms.
This crisis is therefore about culture and power, and throughout U.S. history these have been unequivocally linked under the aegis of white privilege. In the absence of such unshakable monolithic agency, though, who claims control? Whose face will be chosen to face the world as embodying the totality and meaning of America and all that this ongoing project, begun by the Founders, promises? This is of utmost national importance and meaning. In 2008, Americans chose a black man as this embodiment, and this was just too much for vast swaths of the body politic, especially the social conservatives (regardless of region) belonging to a Southernized political party. The only possible reaction was hysteria, perhaps at the very root of which was the hard-wired primal survival mechanism that identifies the threat of the Other and reacts spontaneously and often violently. Our contemporary society of digital communications technologies allows for the global broadcast of the primal scream. And then in 2012, Americans chose to keep this black man, a bit more wrinkled, his hair greying, as their collective national avatar in a clear, decisive, and direct victory over those who sought nothing less than his destruction.
“We, the People” has been unshackled from what it has traditionally meant. “We, the People” now represents a once unthinkable coalition of diverse peoples and cultures, with a prevailing (if not necessarily uniform) ethos that has evolved past mere tolerance. Tolerance is neither acceptance nor understanding. Tolerance maintains a power dynamic in which the more privileged group tolerates the lesser. Acceptance and understanding only burgeon once communication enters the dynamic as a means to not only bridge gaps and discover each other, but move toward mutual celebration of the diversities of all, with the ultimate common goal of shared progress. This is why I always maintain that the internet changed everything in terms of social progress, for within a very compressed period of time, we became suddenly and fantastically joined together in a true global village in which communication fosters good will and progress among peoples. “We, the People” of America can now self-determine and self-identify themselves, no longer bound by the rigid traditions, conventions, sentiments, resentments, and conflicts of the past.
But so many in the United States—that constituency of rage—just aren’t ready to go there yet. And it took a black man, a devoted follower of Lincoln, to show this to America and to the world.
(It’s implied, and many of you know this of course, but this is my work. I didn’t specify that.)
(And this is copyrighted with a copy in the Library and Archives Canada, which is like the Library of Congress, so no one rip me off, lol.)
Puck, I would love to deliver this in an upcoming Toastmasters speech! How might I read this piece in it’s entirety?
You can’t, really. I haven’t published it online or elsewhere. It’s around 150 pages anyway. But you can’t use it as a speech, I’m afraid, though I’m deeply honored that you have been moved to do so. If I could be there I would gladly deliver it myself as a part of a longer lecture. But it’s copyrighted material, and I need to maintain control of my intellectual property.
Puck- BRAVO. BRAVISIMO!!!! Now I want the entire epic.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Nice work.
Thank you. That’s essentially the culmination of four years of watching and pondering.
I’ve been waiting for this for a while, it’s as good as I thought it would be. I just wish there was a way we could read the whole thing without compromising your anonymity. Sometimes the downside of the internet really sucks!
Great job, Puck. Really outstanding. 🙂
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Puck~ Yeah. What Nef05 said. 🙂
________________________________
bravo! well done, that must feel fantastic to have it completed, bound and i believe you said up for publication in a peer reviewed journal? impressive and hats off!
Guys, can we keep our eyes on the ball?
Let’s not forget the most important thing W1 said.
She said that she both saw and heard John come out and go back in. That means when she was at the door before the shot, while they were STANDING.
That’s why I’m not concerned about the media claiming she was “impeached” (she wasn’t).Or, about some petition that anyone could have posted on her wall or tagged her on, which would have put it on her wall, as well.
Clearly they missed the most important part of her testimony which impeaches W6 AND fogen, at the same time – and it has nothing to do with which way they were running. The running part is is important as well, because it also impeaches fogen. But the fact that they were both standing, when John came out was and is testimony that impeaches BOTH of their stories – and the defense couldn’t touch it.
Nef I agree. Just found it disrespectful to call the witness stupid. Lots of doxing going on and she risked the b.s. to tell what she knew and to be called stupid I think is out of bounds.
I don’t care if you think it’s disrespectful to call a random lady’s testimony stupid. I only want the best witnesses on the stand so we have the best chance of seeing the conviction of FatPhuckInstein.
Unless you are her I fail to see why you continue to beat this dead horse. It’s my opinion. Let it go. Thanks. 🙂
Tasha- because that “random person” took a lot of risk and courage to speak her truth. You strip that away from her with your petty judgements. She’s testifying against a murderwe. Don’t you have any respect for that? Trolls denigrate others.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I agree. I don’t believe she is or was stupid. I believe she doesn’t have an assertive personality. But, I don’t believe she’s stupid.
tasha I continued to beat a dead horse because I have yet to see Professor LET anyone call a WITNESS stupid. I am done with you. You do not get it, please do not reply. You are not worth it.
She was not, by the way, stupid. She was intelligent and sensitive but she was not used to real courtrooms. If she was used to ANY courtrooms it would have been TV courtrooms which are notoriously faked-up.
For years I tried to help mothers who were involved in domestic relations cases where the fathers were represented by lawyers like O’Mara. I considered my role trying to help these women withstand the horrors of the courtroom. I would say to them: “If there are 100 different things that can possibly happen in that courtroom, and you go over every single one with your lawyer, and you are prepared, thing #101 will happen and you will find yourself as lost as if you were dumped off an ocean liner without a life-saver.”
Which brings me to the another point that made me sick to my stomach enough to get out of bed and come to this site looking for answers (after first attempting to clear up troll accusations)
My questions is when does the state introduce what Zimmerman claims happened so that the evidence the jury is looking at ties to together better? For instance, we know Fogen claimed the last thing Marin did before he pulled the trigger was slam his head on concrete. When we looked at the location of Tray’s body in relationship to the sidewalk and the direction his feet were pointed WE realized that what Zimmerman said was not possible. However, the jurors cannot put this together without knowing exactly what Fogen said so how does the state overcome this issue?
@tashatexas77048.
The State does not present GZ’s defense. IF GZ presents a defense, the State gets opportunity to cross-examine and then present its rebuttal case.
Thanks Xena, that’s what I figured and that’s why it sucks that the judge did not allow the voice experts and it will suck if she doesn’t allow his previous NEN calls. Those things compound to make it more likely that he won’t testify simply because he will not have to. Let’s pray that he gets on the witness stand!
@tashatexas77048.
Leatherman wrote a post about the Frye decision. I understand and agree with him. If the judge disallows GZ’s previous NEN calls, the State can still question the witness based on business records. The jury won’t hear the calls, but they will know how many NEN calls GZ made before 2/26/12.
The ill-will is already demonstrated in that 2/26/12 NEN call, along with the fact that GZ told witnesses he had already called 911. Well, he knows the difference between calling 911 and the non-emergency number. No ambulance is dispatched when calling NEN. He wanted Trayvon to die.
Tasha- the State does NOT introduce ANY of it. GZ had to introduce it HIMSELF for it to self defense claim. Otherwise what anybody else says is hearsay. GZ will have to get in the box to have the jury even consider self defense.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Ok thanks for the responses. I’m off to bed and sorry about the confusion earlier, I admit I got a little carried away but I think I’ve explained why, ad nauseum.
Goodnight all.
Tasha- good bye!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
It’s should be clear if John Good came out and asked Zimmerman if he needed some help and Zimmerman didn’t respond that he did…then Zimmerman was not in a fight for his life.
I agree, from OUR perspective, she made some nail in the heart points but again, the perspective of the jury is the only one that counts and without knowing Zimmerman’s full stor(ies) I wonder if bringing out this type of witness at this time was effective. And I also took issue with her forcing O’Mara to pull information from her that she could have easily cleared up and thereby looked less…..well…stupid. Sorry, I can’t think of any other word.
In one of Fogen’s many descriptions, he claims to have told John Good, “Help me, he’s killing me.” John Good did not say that, though.
I think W1 was thoughtful and intelligent. She looked as if she was bushwhacked by the defense. Likely the defense is going to run roughshod over all the prosecution witnesses. They’d best be more ready than they were today.
I do feel as the defense continues to try to batter witnesses that the jury is going to see through it.
I’m glad this jury is sequestered if the media thinks W1 was impeached by her testimony. Her testimony is what it is and she’s but one piece in an intricate puzzle that will convict Fogen.
I’m glad they’re sequestered, as well. Every station I saw carried segments of O’Mara’s cross, not one of them mentioned the “standing” point that impeaches the defendant and the only witness who even remotely, at one time, before recanting, just barely, kind of, corroborated fogen.
It was beyond irritating.
It is folly to run off people who come here to debate this case and stand up for Trayvon. You should also become better at identifying trolls. One thing they would never do is say anything positive about the only person that matters here and it’s not you, me or nor opinions but Trayvon Benjamin Martin. Stop the insulting madness. I thought you were above the fray??
More to my point from earlier: Today was the day we finally saw pictures of Tray in the worst possible way and the jurors were shaken as well so it was an extreme folly for the state to discontinue it’s case where they presented experts of sorts and crime scene testimony to shift to the eye witness. They could have ended the day with another expert or even ended it with Tray’s photos so they haunt the jurors overnight but instead they allowed the most important part of the day be overshadowed by a silly witness who couldn’t just say, “yes I was sympathetic to the Martin’s who lost their child but it had nothing to do with my testimony because I could have just made up statements that are damaging to the defendant but I did not.” I am extremely disappointed with how the State ended today because what is at stake is too valuable for them to eff it up.
You are a stranger on the internet you can type something nice about Trayvon while being in support of GZ offline. My first comment here had to be moderated, Prof. let her in so until he says something it’s a non issue.
But anyone who uses the phrase “scheme team” is suspect.
I never said “scheme team” although the person who did say it was referring to O’Mara. What would be my purpose to be here as a troll and say something nice about anyone? Isn’t that the opposite of what trolls do? And this is not the CIA so there is no need for this covert behavior of which you speak so again chill. As a matter of fact, mosey on over to HLN or The Debate Politics forum and you’ll see I’m a professional Zimmerman basher under my name Tasha Harris on HLN or my screenname as the one here on debate politics.com. I’m not the enemy.
The scheme team is the outhouse’s name for Trayvon’s family and their lawyers. And perhaps all of what they call the BGI- and perhaps even us – but it is really the name they use for Tracy, Sybrina and their lawers.
OHHH!! Ok I honestly didn’t know that, and I didn’t say that as well, it’s my first time ever reading the term.
@Rachael.
We’re Leatherheads and race traitors. 🙂
We’re Race traders?…I ain’t tradein’ him….I like the guy….BTW…Where is he? ….
LOL@MMPat. You’re NUTS! Racer is busy with business. Remember, I told him it would not slow down until around July 4th.
Nuttier than a Squirrel turd my Dear 🙂
Tasha didn’t even ask what the outhouse is. lol.
At a time when Tracy and Sybrina should be uplifted; when good thoughts and (if a praying person) prayers should be sent forth for righteous judgment and wisdom for the prosecution, this page has turned into a page of personal defense. It is disruptive.
This blog is not only administered by a person with legal experience as a death penalty defense attorney, but there are several other lawyers and people with experience in courts and the law who comment here. They understand that in every trial by jury, there are no guarantees. However, they also understand that judgment of winners and losers cannot be made in the first 2 days of a 2nd degree murder trial.
The State is going to present its case in chief. The defense may or may not present its case. If it does, then the State gets to rebut.
The prosecutors are not guys who only prosecute shop lifters or defendants caught holding the smoking gun who plead guilty. They are legal bull-dogs. And, the right thing to do when the opposing party lies, is to present the truth and during closing argument, knock them out of the ballpark.
There are times we need to see the middle from the beginning in order to reach the proper end/goal.
Now, can we get back to discussing the case? I’ll start off. Let’s take a vote. Is GZ going to take the stand?
@Xena, I think they will not put fogen on the stand and will say it is because he is medicated (due to the “trauma” doncha know, and a medicated person is not reliable lol).
@Judy75201. Tonight on Anderson Cooper, he asked O’Mara if GZ was going to take the witness stand. O’Mara said that unless the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not kill in self-defense, that he will not put on a defense. If they meet their burden is when he decide whether to put GZ on the stand.
Xena- that doesn’t make sense to me. The state doesn’t have to prove anything but murder 2. The self defense thing GZ will have to bring up. Is MOM just being confusing on purpose?
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@cielo62. O’Mara is deceptive. He sincerely believes that the state will testify on GZ’s behalf — give GZ’s entire story and then O’Mara closes with argument that the State admitted to GZ’s story without proving it false.
But, he forgot John Guy’s opening statement. 🙂
I also don’t believe they will risk putting Fogen on the stand, considering how he messed up on Hannity. They could hardly let him say “I waive my SYG hearing” by himself!
Not willingly. If he has to take the stand he will be crispy toast when any of the 3 Prosecutors get done with him. Thanks for the pep talk.
@disappointed.
Every cloud has a silver lining. 🙂
Xena, I think he will…but will be up all night the night before, after his Calgon bath, with O’Scumbag and Duane Toddleberry, rehearsing his deception and lies. I expect he’ll frequently nod off and have to be nudged awake because he’ll also be loaded with I don’t wanna face the music tranqs.
@DruDo. Just after I posted that question, Anderson Cooper interviewed O’Mara. Based on O’Mara’s responses to Anderson, it’s my guess that GZ will have to take the stand, but only after O’Mara requests another delay to prep him.
Exactly, Xena. O’Mara will not put fogen on the stand unless he has no other desperate choice. He’s already laying the framework. Because he know’s what is coming.
Xena, I think GZ is just arrogant enough to take the stand if he thinks he might be convicted. It appears he is very involved if not completely running the show on the defense side.
Tasha- that’s the point; you rarely say anything positive about what us going on! If its not “perfect” in your eyes, it’s automatically a disaster or a sign of corruption. Please. Also you do abuse the rest in this site. WE are the community here. We are united in fighting for justice BUT we are not non beings that you can screech at. Everything you say is negative and demoralizing adding nothing of value to the discussion. That, me dear, is a hallmark of a troll.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Well you were wrong and mistook my passion for being a troll. There were two errors here, my presentation and your interpretation of my presentation. Let’s start over.
I clearly presented my reasons for being upset with the state allowing today to end with a stupid witness on the stand who was needless evasive. I didn’t attack anyone here and my very first post to this site said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about please donate to this site.” That is not troll behavior.
The witness was NOT stupid.
I think the witness was STUPID. It has nothing to do with you nor anyone else so this silly attack on me because I thought she did poorly should stop. You are supposed to be on the side of what’s right, so act like it!
Tasha- we object to the way you are abusing the integrity of this blog. At least I DO. No the sky is not falling. No the witnesses are not stupid. No the “fix ” is NOT in. So behave like a rational adult. You were disappointed in the prosecution? Ok. You felt the witness could he lave been better prepared by Bernie? Ok. But calling for a mistrial and all your negative histrionics are not welcome here.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
CYBER FIGHT………
Hang on…lemmie get my popcorn….
MMP- LOL! Sorry. I started poking a few negative polls and stirred up some posting trolls!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
NP……..Just tryin’ to add some “levity”………Bustin’ Balls 🙂
mountainmanpat- roflmao! You are funny. Glad to see this evening.
That is ingratiating behavior.
Judy, I noticed from reading back that you were nearly first in line on the “she’s a troll” bandwagon. Listen, I’m not a troll and the founder of this website can read ALL of my previous comments and find that out rather quickly. Chill out.
It is rude to call the witness stupid. 1st After Bernie did recross we found out NO ONE ever asked her the direction. Maybe she thought they had.
2nd So what if she liked or signed a petition. When the defense puts their witnesses on they will more than likely liked his face book or donated to his scum fund.
It is all in the delivery. Maybe what you call stupid could be nerves. They are not only testifying in court they KNOW their testimony is LIVE on National Television. jmo
The stupid part was to say she had sympathy for the Zimmerman’s when we ALL KNOW this lady, like 99.999% of people with one ounce of decency have no sympathy for that scummy family. O’Mara even knows they are scum that’s why he didn’t believe her lol
tasha Maybe when she signed or liked whatever she had sympathy for BOTH, it has been a while ago. Maybe she does feel bad for both families. We do not have to like what that family is about but only 1 pulled the trigger. You can say whatever BUT as a Mother who has lost a son to violence I can say I do not hate the Families of the men involved even though they believe the same way as their family members that killed my son and many others.
You believe what you want. I have faith this woman is being honest. If you think she lied how do you know anything she said is the truth? To call her a liar for one thing, then she must be lying about everything else? Or are you saying she only lied about feeling bad for his family? How do you know it was only that she lied about since you think she is stupid and a liar.
I read back over your posts, tasha, and I didn’t really see anything trollish. I think what happened is that people felt aggrieved at the combination of misbehavior on the part of defense counsel and obnoxious displays of overt and covert racism that have been all over the place for weeks and months, and when W-1 testified and you got so riled up about her less-than-stellar performance, many people felt indignant and even outraged and I think many people also felt that your criticism of the prosecutors was extreme. They’re not perfect but they aren’t throwing the case. Is there a fix in? I was very suspicious of it for a long time and I am frank to say that I still find myself thinking it possible about 17% of the time. But I also see evidence that the prosecution, for one reason or another (how would I ever know) is really doing the right thing with this case.
A friend of mine who is a lawyer and who has a terrible habit of being such a perfectionist that it is almost impossible to deal with her has e-mailed me a frustrated message insisting that “he’s going to get away with it, all because of stupid mistakes” and I haven’t yet designed my answer. I think we’re so bruised by knowing how often people like Fogen DO get away with their evil AND by knowing that the SPD tried very hard to let him get away with it that a touch feels like a stab.
If you’re a troll, which I don’t see, personally, then OK you fooled me; maybe that’s not much to be proud of, perhaps I’m gullible. But I think it’s more a case of you being very touchy about things going wrong at the trial and of course, things DO go wrong at EVERY trial because it is an imperfect process.
Hang in there. If you’re not a troll (which I’m betting on), just try to moderate your reactions so they don’t get experienced like two pokes in the eye with a sharp stick. 🙄
I think that was witness 2 today
witness 1 is the one who says it was a kid making weird noise and she saw a struggle…
witness 1 lives on the corner on the across from witness 11
Thank you for this post Malisha… always the voice of reason!
@Trasha,
I am deeply, deeply offended that you would call the witness “stupid.” She was under siege for reporting the individuals were running – in all three interviews she assumed they understood the running AS SHE SAW IT IN HER MIND – and none of those officials asked her for the direction.
This was never disputed or questioned until today. SHE CONTINUED TO REPORT WHAT SHE SAW. It is her SWORN TESTIMONY.
She did not waver.
You suck.
P-Mom: succinct, as usual.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
If there is anyone who posts on HP, you can see my posting history. I know that there are a lot of things that have been said and done against the Martin family, but I have not been a part of it.
Again, look at my history on HP. Same title name sophia 33. I have nothing to hide. Nothing.
I am far from the enemy.
As I said, my original intent towards becoming a part of this blog was to thank LLMPapa for the videos, which I have posted numerous times on HP in fighting against people supporting Zimmerman
I’ve done that. But I will say again, thank LLMPapa and thanks Mr. Leatherman.
I hope we do get justice for Trayvon!
Peace.
OK, thank you for the heads up
LOL
I often wonder what the world looks like to other people. Is it just me or do people not see the wrong in this? This is not about race, this is about a kid just 3 weeks into his 17th birthday being gunned down. I’m crying right now as I write this, when is it ok to kill a kid within feet of his home, A kid with no weapon, a kid that ran. How in the hell we as Americans defend a man that killed a kid and because our preconceived notion on black being violent he may walk free, he’s defended for fighting off a “thug.” It’s a sad day when it becomes ok to kill a child you’ve been following, a child that tried to get away from you by running, then have so many say Trayvon deserved it. If this was a girl what would we tell our daughter huh? “Don’t run baby from a man following you in the dark, he means you no harm, even if he gets out of his car to look for you, you dont have to fight for your life if he catches up to you.” when we know as parents we Teach our kids to ” fight baby, kick scream & fight for you life.” It’s crazy that black people gotta teach their kids not to run from stranger, not to fight for their life, just take what the world gives you. If this young man laying on that cold wet ground was a girl or a white boy this would be a very different case. The world defended Travis Alexander and all his action bad and good. ” even if he said or did those things he didnt deserved to die for that” not Trayvon huh, he don’t get the same treatment. Didnt you know black males kill and white males don’t. It’s not about race it’s about the lenses we view the world out of.
Tee I feel exactly the same way. Great post and thank you.
The world IS changing, and that is what has the pigs who sanction racism, however secretly, terrified. This case is a world-changer, in my opinion. Keep hope.
You are correct there should be 0% Fogen support. His NEN call was enough in my view. He said he was following we HEARD the wind in the phone we knew he was CHASING a CHILD AT NIGHT ARMED. This is 100% wrong behavior and no parent even Zidiot parent would stand for it. It’s scary to me, I guess it’s hunting season on black boys. What year is this, 1812???? Trayvon can’t walk on the street? I walked everywhere as a young teen, yes even at dusk and I had excellent parents. Economic conditions are tough for people and I would bet that MOST teens don’t have a car, they like freedom of movement so they CHOOSE WALKING.
Tee, it’s not just you. That’s why we’re all here-people who care-people who are all different in some way, but united in wanting justice for an innocent teenage boy who harmed no one, did nothing wrong and is vilified by lying, unscrupulous lawyers and the murderer who will say and do anything to avoid taking responsibility for what he did. Just as he’s avoided blame and consequences for his other acts of aggression and violence towards others in the past, he continues to do so because he always gets away with it. He ALWAYS blames someone else, but it’s ALWAYS someone else who suffers as a result of his actions and he never does. It’s a sad, sickening feeling to know that there are those who don’t care what he did, it’s only who he did it to. Ignorance and meanness is taught and learned well. For awhile, I really thought things were getting better, but this has brought the snakes out from under the rocks where they hide from the light of day and I’m disheartened to know that. I wonder all the time what’s wrong with people and if it will ever end. Children are abused and murdered, parents are disrespected, elderly people are mistreated. I guess all we can do is to speak up for what’s right, don’t be afraid, and be strong in our hearts.
I learned a few things while reading an article where Jason Johnson grades the prosecution and defense opening statements.
*Fogen apparently has fight training. I had only known that he worked as a bouncer for a bit.
*Fogen had his gun cocked and ready when he left the car. I am no gun expert, but I do believe cocking the gun means to pull the hammer back. You only do that if you are prepared to fire the weapon. This is going to be very damaging for Fogen. Newer pistols like Glocks don’t have hammers anymore, and are ready to fire once a bullet is chambered.
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/25/grading-opening-statements
The only hurdle I see for the prosecution is to make the jury understand how Fogen got his wounds. Is BDLR going to argue that Fogen caused the wounds himself in the pursuit, or will he say that Martin was defending himself from his attacker? Obviously, the wounds were not life threatening, and not even serious enough to warrant a visit to the emergency room. But I still think a jury of 6 women will want to know how Fogen got those wounds.
Forensic evidence indicates that Trayvon did NOT slam, punch or smother Trayvon.
Bye, bye to gz’s story.
they have a plan , recall they said no Zimmerman DNA/Blood on Trayvon’s hands and any fight type mark was found on his weak left hand in opening statement so it’s coming.
I don’t think they should have to prove where he got the damages from, since he’s a liar, it could have been gun recoil, falling down, or just wrestling
oops…..what I wrote should have read:
Forensic evidence indicates that Trayvon did NOT slam, punch or smother *GZ*.
Bye, bye to gz’s story.
*West, in his opening statement, admitted that the killer had taken boxing and wrestling classes at Kokkapelli’s Gym.
* His gun is a double action only semiauto. It is designed to be carried with a full magazine and a live round in the chamber. The internal striker is cocked and released when the trigger is pulled. It does not have or need a manual safety. The long, heavy travel of the trigger serves to prevent accidental discharges. Functionally these guns are much like the doubleaction revolvers that were standard with most police departments until the switch to semiautomatics in recent decades.
I’d like to know where those scratches came from too but they are NOT proof that the defendant was in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury and that is the standard for “justifiable use of deadly force” (selfdefense).
@Dave,
You want to know how Zimmerman got those back-of-the head (minor) lacerations (in a area where the scalp will bleed profusely)?
Let me quote Zimmerman directly:
“He came out of the bushes.”
Zimmerman raced down Retreat View Circle to spot his quarry (one of those “assholes” who “always get away'”) that he believed was escaping through the back entrance.
When he did not see him, Zimmerman darted between the condo buildings to see if his target was in the grassy dog-walk area.
Cutting between buildings, he tangled with the landscaping. It’s February. No leaves, lots of bare branches. He tripped, or more likely just ducked his head and ran through, catching his scalp on a couple of low-hanging branches.
Yep. “He came out of the bushes.”
When Zimmerman spouted that line to Serino at al during the re-enactment on-site the next day, it was with an air of reality. No conjecture. But — it WAS NOT Trayvon who emerged “from the bushes.”
And “the bushes” wasn’t that puny 18″ high landscaping that they were all looking at. (I was surprised they didn’t laugh in Zimmerman’s face – but then, they wanted to keep him talking.)
He spouted what he recalled the night before, because that’s what caused his back-of-the head “injuries.” Taller bushes, with bare branches around 5 ft. off the ground.
To his schnozz, it was the Kel-Tek kickback.
I have watched a lot of Crime TV like American Justice and I have to say what u posted has the ring of truth to it. Criminal defendants will usually mix truth with lies to explain away, minimize, or cover their own guilt. Like it was said before, whatever Fogen did he blames on the kid. The nose scratch-recoil. The head scratch-hiding in the bushes like a creeper in the rain.
People really aren’t that creative or quick thinking. The truth of what actually happened is at the forefront of his mind so he used it.
I don’t think it’s incumbent upon the prosecution to prove (or even figure out) HOW Fogen got the injuries. Serino said that they were “capillary type cuts or lacerations not coincident with” a total beat-down. What the prosecution has to show is that the injuries do not prove that Fogen reasonably believed he was in dangerous of serious physical injury or death. MUCH DIFFERENT! Think of it: if a few scratches meant that self-defense was to be assumed, or even prima facie, then any of us could basically kill anyone we wanted to kill, so long as we sustained a few boo boos in the process. There is no constitutional guarantee that you can kill somebody without getting any bumps or bruises.
I think all they have to prove is that Trayvon did NOT inflict the injuries. And that proof is rock-solid.
Judy- and with zero of Zimmy’s DNA on Trayvon, BAM! There it is!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@Cielo, BAM, there it is. No DNA,no cuts (except for that minor 1/8 inch cut BELOW the knuckle of his LEFT hand), and no bruising or any other indication that Trayvon had grabbed hold of fogen’s head and smashed it 24 times into the concrete, or even sucker punched him, or even touched fogen in any way at all.
That little piggy fogen is prisonbound.
Judy- YEP! That little piggie will scream whee whee whee all the way to jail.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
They do not have to prove that Trayvon did not inflict those trivial wounds on the killer. If Trayvon reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or bodily injuriy (and I believe that he did) he had every right to do whatever was reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to prevent it. The aggressor in a violent encounter cannot claim self defense unless the aggressee’s response is grossly disproportionate to the threat.
But Dave, the very fact that there is no DNA or other physical evidence that Trayvon did anything to or even ever touched fogen does prove that there was no actual physical encounter beyond the murder.
What’s the strategy meeting for each side tonight going to be like?
The defense needs to consider that perhaps BDLR and Guy aren’t going to bring in anything from the SPD interviews
It was (I believe) either Xena or Malisha that said they would ask for a directed verdict when the prosecution rests. I agree, and I also agree that they won’t get it. That said, if the defense has not considered long before now that the prosecution will hold the statements to force fogen to testify they are stupid, as well as liars.
@Nef05.
HEAR YE, HEAR YE!!! Mark O’Mara just told Anderson Cooper that unless the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not kill in self-defense, that he will then decide whether to put on a defense and put GZ on the stand.
So, as it stands now, O’Mara has no defense.
Xena- they never did. Only now it’s official. 🙂
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@cielo62. Yep. It’s official. O’Mara has no defense for GZ and only after the State has completed its case in chief will he think about a defense.
@Xena –
Projecting “confidence” to his followers? He has no defense and he knows it.
On drive home, CNN’s Anderson Cooper interviewed O’Mara.
When he asked if he knew about West’s knock-knock joke plan for yesterday’s opener, MOM said “no” and admitted that bon mot had failed to amuse.
MOM’s explanation? I am not making this up. .
“Don had been frustrated” by this, that, and the other, MOM said, and therefore had tried to introduce a little “levity” into proceedings.
Yes, he said “levity.”.
Since this was XM radio, I have no idea about the expression, if any, on Cooper’s face.
Levity? Really?! In front of the parents of a murdered boy?! They are just as calleous as their client.
Tracy and Sybrina were also on with Anderson Cooper?
You are kidding, right? He told the joke in the courtroom in front of Tracy and Sybrina.
“He was frustrated” is always the excuse O’Mara gives for any wrongdoing by defendant or by the defense TEAM. Remember that Fogen lied about the money because he was frustrated, frightened and mistrustful? Now WEST is frustrated. See, stuff happens!
Well, I’ll be more than a little frustrated until Fogen is off Florida streets and in the pen.
I’m convinced. Two trolls.
I made a mistake twice. I meant to say toward the “T”. Whatever.
I’m a sociologist. As in, advanced degrees in sociology. I observe and analyze social behavior, and by now I’m fuckin awesome at it.
Here’s my hypothesis as a social scientist: Your chicken little reactions about the tiniest prosecution setback are, I believe, deliberate attempts to demoralize us. I’m seeing the same tropes throughout your posts, transposed to the immediate contexts of different trial events. I will continue my participant observation as usual, observing the sociology of this place, and I’ll make a note to look out for you. Here’s to the good times! Justice for Trayvon!
Puck- you Rock!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Puck said:
Groans- when you have your own PhD then come back and cause trouble. There is a significant difference between trash talk and the demoralizing used between enemies. If you don’t know that difference, maybe a few college classes might help you out.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I detected something untoward about the two of them. Sophia33 is all chicken little, convinced that the tiniest thing means zomg the fix is in!!!! even yesterday — the very first day of trial. They both stood out to me right away.
It’s a relay team. Amazin!!!
See my reply to Sophia33.
Judy- that was my reaction. At least I wasn’t alone.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I did, Puck, and it is priceless!
Puck as I have stated already, I have seen this way to often. As I said, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell to name a few. Ayiana Jones was the most recent case. There is always a “yeah but” as to why their murderers walk free.
Everyone says that the media is on Trayvon’s side. To me, from my vantage point, the media is on Zimmerman’s side. As I pointed out last night after watching HLN, they never ask the important questions. NEVER.
Last week, a police officer was caught on tape shooting a 7-year old black girl in the head. The A&E television program “48 hours” caught it on tape. The producers are up for perjury for not producing the tape. The officer shot from the porch, not from the house. Yet he claimed he shot from inside the house and the gun went off because the grandmother tried to grab his gun. But the tape shows something different. Completely different. The result? A hung jury. A HUNG JURY! A seven-year old is dead!
I may be a bit cynical for your tastes. But I have seen this time and time and time and time again. I have been disappointed time and time and time again. It seems that they look for the least little thing not to bring these folks to justice. The judicial system of this country has shown me time and time again, that a black life doesn’t mean as much as a white life. Heck the judicial system in this country has shown me that it’s not fair or equitable to blacks at all.
There is always an excuse for calling all of this anything that what it is. Pure good old-fashioned American racism.
So yes, I get excited when I feel the prosecution makes a mistake. The reason being that I know and have seen from experience that the least little reason they can find to let a killer of one of us go free they seem to find it. It’s real!
There’s always that one big case that goes right and makes an indelible impact on society and in history. This could very well be the one.
I’m going to leave the “I get excited when I feel the prosecution makes a mistake” to you Puck. 🙂
@my fellow social scientist
i’ll be you’re puckleberry 😉
did you read the bit from my paper?
@puck
of course i read your excerpt – wish i could read the entire document.
You know what?! I made a mistake. I meant to correct the mistake. But then I said the same thing again. But if you look at what I said in context, anyone with real common sense could see what I was trying to say.
You said that O’mara was terrified of Witness #1. I said:
As he should be. It takes away the whole “I was attacked at the ‘T’” nonsense. Because the natural question becomes, “Well George how did you get away from the “T”?
Then I made a mistake and said:
“Why were you running from the “T”?”
I then tried to correct it, not realizing that that said the same thing again.
But again, if you look at what I said in context, you can see what I was trying to say from the 4 sentences before.
I have done nothing but support Trayvon Martin’s family. And my ONLY criticism I have had has been out of concern about the prosecution blowing the case. So that makes me a troll.
You know what? Whatever!!! I’m through with you too.
Peace.
Is it dead?
Your usage of the term “scheme team” outs you. But anyway this is not my site and I am new here as well.
I have two sons and if any one of them had been shot dead in a backyard by a crazed vigilante I would do ANYTHING to bring him to justice. Sybrina has the patience of 100 saints to wait one year while internet racists trash her son.
Lets see what Jon/John has to say when he testifies. If he says Fogen was traveling from the T prosecution will know that he is lying.
LLMPapa- Bond hearing footage! Can you check bald head for lumps and bumps? Those should be healed by then, right? If you have time, PLEASE!!
you can see he has a natural ridge starting right before the area his hairline is receding on both side of his head…look at him tomorrow those ridges can be seen now…..somebody really musta whipped west upside his head if you just go by lumps!
Bill thank you. After the drama in court today that is what stuck out to me. If that is the natural curve of the skull I do not understand why they would try to say it is a bump because it could be easily refuted, except fat ass grew his hair for a reason. A reason could be hiding the lumps and bumps.
Aren’t there people who read head lumps the way they read palms? I’m serious. Now I have to look that up because I’m sure there are.
phrenologists from memory…….
Papa I watched bond hearing. I have very bad eye sight therefore I cannot answer my own question. I did find still photos at axiom and again eyes are to bad to see bumps. Can anyone tell if he had those bumps either before or after “sidewalk beating?” Link is from axiom.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/george-zimmerman-photo-gallery/
I see the right fronto-temporal bump on pic #5
I noticed today during the “lump” segment that fogen happened to have an identical “lump” on the top of his left and right side of his head, lol. The “lumps” are going nowhere (i.e., they are a permanent part of the scenery, like the “black” eyes).
Thanks guys. I do have a hard time focusing at a distance but these eyes have seen a lot of things in 50++ years. They are getting tired. Even with bi-focals.
@Judy75201
That’s exactly what I said earlier about the “lumps” on each side of his head, etc. Just looks like that’s the way his head is shaped. Nor did I see some teeny weeny cut O’Dirty was trying to point out on the lump and the left and right. Some men just have naturally bumpy/lumpy heads.
I am telling you guys…there is something significant about Tayvon’s photo button on his shirt.
How did Fogen see this button that was on a dark grey hoodie in the dark and rain? How did he know that Trayvons hoodie was grey instead of black. Was there really enough light at the clubhouse where Trayon walked past Fogen’s truck for him to see this?
Did Fogen see Trayvon up close in a more lighted place before he called NEN? Or maybe someone else saw Trayvon up close in a well lit place and relayed this information to Fogen.
Good point -GZ saw TM at the mail kiosk and then up closer under the street lamp south of the kiosk as the teen passed his car.
It’s clear GZ was never parked in the clubhouse parking lot. Instead he parked on TTL facing the mail kiosk.
willisnewton- if that is true he has some ‘splaining to do. Fogen in video walk thru says he sees Trayvon at FT’s home. He pulls off at clubhouse to call NEN, within seconds he already has Trayvon walking toward him to check him out! His story does not make since and his timing is way off, IF the jury pays attention to detail he is DONE. If they are not into the detail well than I worry. I think to be on a jury attention to detail must be a top priority.
Hi ChrisNY! I like the way you think and I really think there is a lot creedence to what you are saying! Blinky Fogens cell phone records will show the truth! 🙂
the streets are narrow, I did not see any sidewalks so he could have been 10 feet from him in a car
I also wonder about the 711 bag that was found empty on the sidewalk (marker 2), why was it empty and the Arizona drink and skittles were found in Trayvons pocket, TM’s blood on the skittles, which clearly shows that they were not there before he was shot.
Did Fogen take these items out of the bag and put them in Trayvons pockets? Why would he do that?
ChrisNY- those have been ?s that I asked as well. 7-11 video will show that he puts candy in hoodie pocket, but the can is in the bag…not sure if in his attempt to detain Trayvon, the can falls from the bag, and later placed in his pocket by GZ. Otherwise, it’s a small window off opportunity for Trayvon to retrieve on his own. GZ grabs hold of him immediately, Rachel(DD) says she here’s what sounds like ‘bumping’ and Trayvon say “get off me!”
ChrisNY, I mentioned that last year when we first began examining evidence, and I brought up that I felt like Fogen cut through some buildings and cut Trayvon off at the path. I forgot who it was, but someone disagreed with me about both. Because I remember the clerk giving Trayvon a bag for his items. When I saw the layout of the complex that’s when I felt like GZ cut Trayvon off at the path, that and the fact that GZ lived there too. Another thing that made me feel that was when he claimed he did not know the name of the street. I do not know anyone that does not know the surrounding streets in their neighborhood, especially when they have to pass them on a daily basis.
I even felt like GZ’s father-in-law and him had a burglar ring scam. Shellie’s father spent time in jail for that, but it was dismissed by everyone, so I left it alone.
O’Mara is terrified of Witness 1, that’s why he attacked her.
As he should be. It takes away the whole “I was attacked at the ‘T'” nonsense. Because the natural question becomes, “Well George how did you get away from the “T”? Why were you running from the “T”?
Rather why were you running away from the “T”
Sophia, they were running toward the T. I’m done with you.
Yes. And the HOA guy puts another piece in the puzzle. George was desperate for recognition. He wanted a “praise email.” After the roofers caught a burglar, GZ was desperate to do the same.
Yup…….’ol fogen had his thunder stolen………how embarrassing for the NHW coordinator ………
Gee, Judy … that sounds familiar. Maybe I saw that thought upthread somewhere…? 😉
Hey, did you see the look on Fogen’s face after witness #1 testified.
for the first time I saw the real Fogen. I finally saw what few have seen. her story was identical to her previous stories except the direction thingie. so forget the facebook thing MOM, and other witnesses will be coming that are pro-trayvon too.
I missed that but others have mentioned it. I hope someone posts the video soon or has a picture.
GZ Trial Day 2 Part 3
Something else Witness 1 said today that’s interesting is the timing of her own movements within her kitchen and what she saw.
-She looked out her patio door and saw arm movement of two people STANDING.
-Went back to turn her stove off, and heard a shot
-Less than 15 seconds later, by the time she could get back to the door and look out, the only thing she saw was a dead body lying in the grass! GZ was NOWHERE in sight!
Not a bit like the song and dance the killer gave in his reenactment video.
was that before or after john? because i say the shot was fired while they were standing.
I thought GZ said John came out while GZ was straddled over Trayvon with his hands streated.
stretched.
Selene Tashador’s audio interviews
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-1-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-2/
*Bahador*
Like witness 1, witness 18 also said she saw John go back into the house, and also heard him say he was going to call 911.
Great video LLMPapa! I wish this video could find its way to the Prosecutors!
I would also like to say THANK YOU very much for all the excellent work you have done with the making of these very informative videos! Your time and hard work to get the truth out to the masses is very much appreciated 🙂
I agree. As I said above the only reason I requested entry into this site last week was because of LLMPapa.
What are the rest of us … chopped liver? 😉
I think Raymundo was a good witness
He shows them that there was no dire need to have to shoot Trayvon and attempted to save him
I think the honor he displayed did the case good
Yes, he was very good. Especially after that moron Wendy Dorival.
What do you mean by that?
I don’t think Tasha is a Trayvon supporter… she sounds like one from the hate page on Facebook that likes to stir up trouble. KB is her initials.
Are you saying she’s a troll?
I felt that she is and I don’t usually spot them or care, but she was pretty irritating.
Sleuth- in other words… YES
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Smokeegyrl- my feelings exactly.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
People, please. I know her from another forum and she’s not a troll. She’s just upset. Can y’all cut her some slack?
if you know her from another site, perhaps you could ask her kindly to be cool and get to know this place before acting out. it would be the kindest thing for all involved. you’ve been around here quite a while and you know this is not a dumping ground.
I can give her some slack, I just wish people wouldn’t speculate. The witness’s are very important in this case and they are the ones that count. We can give our opinions over and over but they are ones that were there when this situation happened. Witn 1 has been consistent in what she has said 3x’s… If you are going to support somebody… than have a little faith in them… don’t throw tomatoes until you listen closely to everything… Don’t just go by with the defense says… L I S T E N~!
@smokeegyrl
What a shame. I’m sadden by all this. Just know ain’t nothing hidden from the Almighty. Not even trolls.
If they are, they might be more comfortable over at HP, or better yet, a tree stump, because they aren’t going to find anything here except the TRUTH, and a wonderful group of people wanting nothing more than justice for Trayvon.
I knew when I saw “The Robert Plant Girls” in the courtroom today. FB was going to coming up.
I guess we can expect the same for Mary and Selma.
“The Robert Plant Girls”?? What do you mean? Thx.
Groans- the giggling interns behind MOM are part of his defense team. They troll the Internet getting media info for MOM, especially on FB. Maybe even from here, who knows?
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Today’s Witness 1 had , previously, never stated a direction of the movement she heard for one simple reason.
NO ONE HAD EVER ASKED HER!
Her sketch, however, supports a south to north direction of movement with the “arms” she referred to being drawn SOUTH of her residence.
Her sister, Witness 2 is the one who gave the movement a stated direction of “towards the T”.
It’s all in this vid:
This is a great video. You are a great videographer. You have done a great service for this case. You have done the Lord’s work & I thank you along with all the others.
@LLMPapa
Thank you so much for clearing everything up. I remember listening to Ms. Bahador’s recorded statement when they were first released as part of the media evidence dump. When I finished listening to hers, I listened to a few more.
I clicked on another one and said to myself, “Gee, this witness sure sounds like the female witnessed I listened moments earlier, their statements sure sound similar”.
It took me awhile, but I finally realized these women both lived in the same house. This was several months ago, sometimes last year.
So when Ms. Bahadoor was on the witness stand today, I kept wondering why there seemed to be so much confusion about the “Left to Right Movement” because I was so sure I heard it on one of the recorded statements made earlier. I was actually expecting them to just play the tape,
I was so sure to the point of thinking the defense had forgotten to listen to it.
Thanks again for all you continue to do for obtaining justice for Trayvon.
Be blessed my friend.
Running south to north OR north to south, they would be running AWAY from W-1’s house. Inexpert questioning!
Inexpert or dishonest?
Thanks, Papa. Great stuff as always.
Thanks, Papa. I thought I might have had linked the wrong video. upthread.
Thanks, LLMPapa. I KNEW I remembered some south-to-north movement evidence from those sisters! Probably your video had etched it in my mind. So apparently one sister told Serino about that, and the other sister was never asked but had the same recollection.
I’m still troubled by W1 today saying that she was in the kitchen and her sister (W2) was upstairs. Yet, in her taped interview, W2 says that she (W2) was in the kitchen.
from the moment she got on the stand i found her demeanor and testimony perfectly credible.
what she said was she HEARD ppl moving from left to right, but SAW 2 ppl STANDING, at two separate periods of time.
for the jury, at this moment, this testimony is innocuous because they DON’T know the significance of her statements.
so if i were them i wouldn’t know YET what she could have been lying about. they don’t know gz’s exact story about him being *beat in place* the whole time.
another thing, at first when omar went on the attack my stomach seized just a little.. UNTIL i realized he was playing a stupid word game!
almost immediately i remembered some witness mentioning the direction going north to south or whatever and MLPapa’s video!
so i went back to washing the damn dishes and waited!
the media is acting a fool about her, but BDLR cleared it up for the jury. he doesn’t need to satisfy the pundits.
Yeah, I posted that video above from LLMPapa.
What video?
Shannoninmiami- until/ unless GZ gets on the stand to explain self defense and one version of his story, the jury might never know the significance of this witnesses’ testimony.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Every time Mantei opens his mouth I hear Garrison from JFK. LOL.
i think I meant Guy.
@Cielo:
I don’t know who the heck Tasha is. So I am not her sock. I have no need to hide behind socks. I am fully capable of saying whatever I need to say, as you can see.
And just because I was upset about the testimony of W#1 does not make me a troll. Just because I am passionate about wanting to see justice for a young man who was killed in cold-blood does not make a troll. Just because I have a different perspective than you does not make me a troll.
I only know about this site because I have used certain posts on on off over the year from it in my posts on other sites, most notably HP. It has great information.
The only reason I requested to join this site was about a week ago I saw that LLMPapa posts here and I wanted to first and foremost thank him for his videos. I also saw a video that he had mentioning the Professor. I imagine because of all of the hate going around, he chose not to allow comments on his Youtube videos. I wasn’t able to leave the kind message I wanted to leave.
I thought this was an area to discuss the case. Because this area appears exclusively to be Martin supporters, I thought that it would be safer to express some things more so than other places.
None of that makes me a troll.
Peace and blessings,
Sophia
Sophia, I don’t see you as a troll. Hang around and ask questions and offer opinions.
Thank you Betty.
Sophia nor do I. My comment was more aimed at Tasha. We have no idea who has signed what for George or what has been donated. Therefore before we judge this witness we better wait for all. jmo
Sophia, I don’t think you’re a troll and I don’t think many or even any of us think(s) that either. I appreciate your comments. Please don’t get stressed out about that; we need our nerves intact because West and O’Mara have been DANCING on them and they have NO RHYTHM! 😀
Thanks Malisha!
What? You expect a couple of white geezes to have rhythm? 🙂
no worries I was upset too.
I’m glad you understand boyd.
Sophia- I apologize sincerely. For a series of comments you fully backed the deranged hysterics of tashatexas. It I am not hesitant to label it a troll and negative disruption. I jumped wrongly to the conclusion that you supported her/him/it. I am sorry. I have been here a long time. And I don’t trust a sudden tsunami of negativity over imagined disasters on one days activities.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Sophia,
I’ve been here for a long time, and there should be no question in any reasonable person’s mind about where I stand on this case.
Nevertheless, I raised realistic criticisms and concerns yesterday, and Cielo “labeled” and personally insulted me to others – dismissing me and my thoughts as if I’m nothing more than an annoying gnat in her little world. Not unlike she’s done to you and Tashatexas today.
Cielo has some problem accepting thoughts that are outside her limited “box,” lately – and apparently feels “entitled” to attack others merely for expressing something she does not favor.
It’s not you – it’s Cielo who has a problem lately and can’t deal with diverse thoughts and perceptions.
Sophia33, I do not see you as a troll. I see you as someone voicing your opinions and sometimes your frustrations. I think that many of us here are so invested in this case that sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us. I have done it and been attacked for it. I could be wrong, but I have noticed that some of the people here who I think are AA tend to come across as negative in their comments if it appears the case is not going well. They are then chided for their opinions, almost to the point of bullying. I understand that we all want to stay positive. That doesn’t mean that we can’t engage in respectful discourse about this case. After all, we all want justice for Trayvon Martin. I think we should be mindful of the different lens that each of us view this case. We all bring different life experiences here and that can’t help but affect the importance of the outcome to each of us individually. There are many wonderful, intelligent people here. Please don’t let a few who think that their opinions are the only ones that count run you off. I hope I have not offended anyone here for that was certainly not my intent.
Type2- a key word you used was “respectful”. Some people here who blast everything from “frustration” are not bring mindful of their boundaries neither has there been respect for the witnesses. That is totally unnecessary. A blog is not a journal. There are people here engaged in conversation. If one wants to engage in histrionics, bashing and witness disrespect, there are other blogs that specialize in it.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
So someone thinks this is a loss because someone may have or may not have signed a petition. How does that work when the defense puts on rebuttal. If someone donated to his scum fund does that mean they are bias or a liar or what? Good for gander type situation?
Personally, I didn’t think the FB was as big of a deal as her appearing to be rattled. I do think though it would have been better for the Prosecution to bring it up so that they didn’t appear to be blindsided.
ha ha witness #2 her sister said left to right. looking out the back. so witness #1 used her sister words. they both saw stuff, one from downstairs, one from upstairs. at the same time FDLE asked #2 the direction,
on audtio the 6:20 mark on march 20. I knew she said left to right but wrong witness the sister
@boyd — thanks for digging it out. Witnesses should be hung for failing to answer questions that were never asked during preliminary investigations .What she said today in court is what counts.
should NOT be hung — or drawn and quartered for that matter 🙂
Thank heavens you corrected that… after reading it I really thought I had lost the plot completely !
: – )
From what the witness says today, she discussed what she saw with her sister, not the other way around.
Makes sense. Somebody lives in a townhouse with a sister, roommate, significant other, spouse or whatever. There’s a shooting — a fatal shooting — in their back yard. What two people wouldn’t compare notes on who saw what?
I can see O’Mara’s plan, and how the State is going to bury it. O’Mara is depending on the testimony of John. That is why he asked the witness today if she saw GZ staggering around. But, John has recanted. Not only that, but his recorded statement was not credible — it sounded as though he wanted to be special and know more than he saw.
John had better get prepared because West and O’Mara are going to try to eat him alive once the State presents his final statement where he admits NOT seeing Trayvon throwing punches MMA style.
oh yeah, you saw him stagger right? right damm it? say S T A G G E R?
@boyd. Yeah — maybe John saw GZ stagger as he left his house to get in his truck and go target.
@Xena, you left out the word “hunting” 😉
Whatever happened on why he wasn’t at first forthcoming, John needs to flat out tell the unvarnished truth on the stand. Whatever his reason for earlier embellishing, he needs to tell it. The truth will ring true, and leave MOM with his teeth in his mouth.
@Xena
What do you think O’Dirty and The Wiester would do if John #6 admitted to being the cause of the confessed murderer’s minor injuries?
@Sleuth.
IMO, GZ’s head boo-boos were not inflicted that night. In the photos taken at the police station, the scratches on his face had scalps on them. The close-up of his head boo-boos look as if they had scalped around the edges.
IOWs, GZ already had the boo-boos and scratches. All he needed was blood. There is a spot of Trayvon’s blood found on the cuff of GZ’s jacket. The blood on GZ’s head was dry when the EMTs cleaned him up, and there was blood on his hands, although there is no smearing of blood on his face neither head. One EMT wrote in his report that the boo-boo was caused by a thrown object.
At the cop shop, all he would need to do is pick at the scalps to start them bleeding again.
What I believe is that someone put an ass kicking on GZ that Friday or Saturday. Maybe there are text messages on his phone to that effect.
As far as his nose, I believe that GZ shooting with one hand resulted in recoil. That recoil almost made him lose control of the gun and thus, why there is GSR on the back of his right-side jacket sleeve.
Now you know that I believe kickback busted his nose. Do you remember any official reports that mention anything about the last time the gun had been fired? Just curious.
I can see the possibility of a beat down being the cause of his head injuries. I don’t know how I missed that piece about a thrown object being a possibility.
I remember in the media evidence dump, it was stated by officer (I can’t think of the name now) who took him to the SPD asked him again if he wanted to go to ER and he kept saying no. The officer said the only thing he kept asking for was tissue. I always wondered why. Now you got me thinking picking the scabs could be the reason why.
@Sleuth. Great point about the tissue!
No, I do not.
I don’t get why they keep putting the racist orange faced Taffee on HLN and other programs! Taffee Duck is so vial and disgusting! Whenever I see he is on TV I turn the channel, I will not allow is arrogant, racist negativity into my home!
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON AND HIS CLASSY FAMILY!
HOODIES UP!
But that’s exactly why. He’s a train wreck, and therefor good for ratings.
A train wreck doesn’t even begin to describe that man.
You know those trains that have on-train bathrooms for their passengers’ convenience? He’s a train wreck on THAT CAR.
I know right?! I hope he is called as a witness.
Because Taaffe and others of his ilk is the way this country is moving now. Note today’s ruling from the Supreme Court on Voting Rights.
For which I am just disgusted.
west and omara have both mentioned zman staggering around????? no witness saw that and in none of zmans many stories did he claim that……he was cool calm and collected when the first person got there right after the shooting.
They just say things like “staggering around” because they believe that saying them over and over is enough, that “trial by litany” will prevail although they have no evidence to use. It COULD work; it very often DOES work when there are bench trials in domestic relations cases. I don’t think it’s going to work in this trial though.
That really is their technique. Just like O’Mara saying, in an offhand way on TV…bruised knuckles…(referencing Trayvon).
diary:
What are the strange elements that I added to this thread? Just curious and not trying to make waves.
I am not diary but I will tell you that your use of “Scheme Team” tells me you have spent time on sites that are not kind to Trayvon Martin and his family. That term is straight out of the treehouse and I think it should stay there.
Sorry but I’ve had a shitty day am feeling feisty.
Oh, no I referring to O’Mara team. The REAL Scheme Team. The drama accusing Tracy Martin of being “violent” towards GZ’s buddy. The objection after agreeing to the tapes being played. The mess today practically accusing someone of tampering with evidence. That is what I was referring to.
I can’t go to anti-Trayvon sites. I got the term from HP where anyone can see my posting history. I thought they were referring to O’Mara’s team, not the Prosecution.
My apologies for the confusion.
Sophia,
This is typically a very positive site. More than a few harshly negative comments have come from your posts, especially following similarly negative comments from Tasha.
When you are new to an environment, it is important to observe the climate. Go back and read some of your comments of today and notice responses from others besides and in addition to mine.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with what you witness during the trial. The connotations behind your disagreements (or agreements with other harshly-stated disagreements), have caused me to feel a bit uneasy with some of your posts.
Diary
Because I wasn’t the only one to have harsh statements today, I felt comfortable sharing my own. And honestly, I agreed with some, but not all. However, if you look at my posts, I did not agree with everything Tasha said either, if you go back and look.
@Diary, I saw the same thing. The following & falling in line with Tasha. This place generally doesn’t tolerate too much “froth & frenzy” and it gets old fast. One or maybe even two posts, but that’s all that’s the norm. I think Sophia was emotional and let Tasha twist her further.
Judy- That sounds right, and I trashed them both. I’ve got to learn to slow down. 🙂 At least I wasn’t alone in my suspicions.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@Diary. I’ve changed my mind. Two trolls.
Understood.
Diary- I agree. I reacted to the overall impression of packets of unfounded criticism. Diary, thank you for being clear and kind. I don’t mean to alienate fellow justice seekers. But I will open a can if whoop ass on destabilizers.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
You are quite welcome, Ceilo.
Pardon me, *Cielo (sp).
will add my own two cents at this point —
this is a legal blog. many of us have spent well over a year here studying the legal information made accessible to us by professor leatherman. while some of us may occasionally get upset or even angry of something going on in the case, this blog, or even our own lives, this is not a place to come to ‘rant and rave’. please, take that to craig’s list.
we have studied florida law, understand many of the statutes involved and supreme court cases which are relevant. we may make arguments, but they are based on fact or interpretation. we understand the court process, know what to expect and are in this for the long haul.
we recognize that we each bring our own biases, but do our best to examine them and not inflict them upon others. i freely admit that i am not black, do not have centuries of history in which my forefathers were denied equal access to justice. i do however firmly reject any allegations that ‘the fix is in’ or that the mysterious ‘they’ have ‘gotten to judge nelson’. we have watched every pre-trial hearing together, discussed her rulings and although we may not like every ruling, the general consensus is that she is fair.
we are here primarily to understand the law and by extensions, support the state of florida’s proseuction of george zimmerman on the charge of second degree murder. as the trial began, a lot of new comers have come on board, which we of course welcome. a word to the wise though — when exploring new blogs, it is incumbent upon the newcomer to get a ‘feel’ for the blog and to keep that in mind when posting. this is why many people choose to ‘lurk’ for a while before posting. i did for two months and am glad. i did not feel like a fool upon my first post and was taken seriously.
i hope you and others can find something helpful in this post, as that is my only intention.
peace
Please excuse this off topic post. Right now, I have no words. I will just post this video:
I know I saw this today and all I could think about was John Lewis walking the Edmund Pettis bridge. I can’t even talk about this right now.
America has been a strange country for a very long time. For a period, it seemed like everything was going to be better. But now we see that we are starting to slip back into time…..
That’s just the tip of the iceberg of the evil those that hate blacks have planned for our people, Don’t be surprised, just stay watchful and prayerful.
Yes, granny:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-scalias-twisted-views-reflect-supreme-court-voting-rights-case-20130625,0,6835031.story
from article:
You all have thoughtful comments, That argument is priceless. I guess they don’t even have to pretend any more.
Can someone explain to me what this is about? What happened in the Supreme Court?
They removed Section 4 and 5 of the Voting Rights Act. They declared them unconstitutional. These are the provisions that said that states that had a history of discriminating against in their voting practices had to get approval from the DOJ before they could make changes in voting. It was based on a formulary. States that had this history could be removed from the list if they showed that they weren’t engaging in voter suppression anymore. Conversely new states could be added. The law was used to combat some of the voter suppression methods even in this past election. Now that this provision is gone, many of the things they tried to do to suppress votes might get through in future election cycles.
@Sophie –
Just 4, not 5. Although, as a practical matter, taking out 4 effectively guts 5. Which they knew when they did it. I like Justice Ginsberg’s comment in the dissent.
Thanks, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, the lonely voice? Interesting. Thanks Sophie.
I was wondering several decades ago, when I was younger, about historians not linear models, or not progressive models. Some used waves or curves. During the last couple of decades I stopped to wonder about that.
Sorry, Nef05 and Sophie, I meant.
I’m still stunned and not able to think about this right now. I have to admit that I was not expecting this. I thought that Roberts was too concerned about his legacy to join the usual suspects.
I can’t believe that Obama’s election was used as evidence that we no longer need voting rights protection. As far as I can tell, Obama’s election has enraged certain people and brought them out of the woodwork.
The only hope I can see is the recent history, November, 2012: efforts to suppress the black vote only motivated them to vote in record numbers.
Enraged them like none other.
I hate to admit this but I am so pessimistic about our courts right now that I am not even surprised.
I am just aghast at not only this, but a trend in the US to diminish and discount the lives of so many of our citizens. I am scared of our future, especially my children’s future when nonwhites are discounted as sub members of our society. I am just disgusted
The only good thing I can think of, is that I believe the resurgence of racism is based on an awareness by old white males, that their days of being the dominant factor in this society are numbered.
It is not just the brown and black people, whose rights are being attacked. Women and young people’s rights are under fire too. The Obama coalition is scaring the shit out of the ” ruling class”.
I am hoping these actions are like the desperate last actions we’ve seen from the middle eastern dictators that were ousted.
All I can say is turn about is fair play! Hope the Prosecutors have people searching on the puter for the duhfense witnesses comments! We all know that Fogen has many rabid supporters and they cant keep their mouths shut! So Bring it on…. I quarantee the Pros can dig up all kinds of dirt from Blinkys witnesses out there in cyber space! Blinkys followers spew more vial racists hate then anything they can come up with Trayvon supporters! We will have to wait and see 🙂
They may be more anonymous, harder to trace.
You could connect the dot’s web wise concerning me, if you knew my name, thanks to some conspiracy nut that once published my address on his yahoo list when I privately told him his paranoia concerning a supposed list take over was ridiculous. After that I stopped using my name. I realized it could be a problem. But still LeaNder is pretty hard to Google up swiftly.
The treehouse crowd and people like Diwataman may not be so easy to connect via their real names as people that use their names on Facebook or Twitter. Fact is the whole Zimmerman support crowd was promised anonymity. And I am pretty sure that Mom guarantees it.
So they have their cyber sheets with pointed hats. Cowards.
Pretty much. Many make duplicate pages on FB to conceal their real pages, which violates FB rules. I don’t mind that, because they do get attacked. What I mind is when they lie about it and accuse TM supporters of making fake pages when they themselves are using fake pages.
@Judy she was NEVER asked the direction by the prosecution OR the defense. BDLR did point that out.
I’m talking about in her interviews with the SPD right after this happened. Was that pointed out? Thanks.
Yeah. BDLR was on top of that. He pointed it out. He asked if she was asked direction at any time.
And oh, she said that she did mention to someone, but it must have been a time when it wasn’t recorded.
Glad to hear that, Sophia. Thanks.
O.K. I am going to breath. I hope I am wrong about W#1 and if I am I will be the first to admit it. Perhaps having seen too many injustices in the justice system in cases like this, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell (to name a few), I am a bit jaded.
Sophia, I feel ya, and I can go back further in time than that about injustices I’ve witnessed. I am beginning to think that there is no such thing as justice for those of a darker hue. The meaning of “JUSTUS” rings true in America.
Thank you for understanding Granny.
her sister was asked which direction and she said left to right. I’m guessing both were interviewed on the same day.
I was wrong she never mentioned direction until today.
everything else matched and she is very difficult to get information from. like she does not get it. that FDLE guy seemed like he was pulling his hair out to get information. If he did not ask, she would say. I guess some people are like that.
witness #2 is her sister, same type voice, she told serino how far apart martin and zimmerman were.
If he did not ask, she would NOT say.anything
I was only able to watch part of it, but it crossed my mind that she may never have been asked a directional question about what she heard.
She wouldn’t have known it was relevant. She never saw them struggling on the ground, so why would she assume they were struggling on the ground sometime before the shot was fired?
She saw them upright, then she heard the shot, then she what she described as ” the body”. If that is all you’ve seen, you won’t say ” by the way, I never saw them struggling on the ground”.
I think she is one of the least polluted eye witnesses. John is one of the most polluted.
Right it was her sister, who O’Mara is trying to say lied. For me, these two are important because they could clearly show that they were moving south to north. Something that Zimmerman didn’t mention. It shows he followed Trayvon. Then it begs the question, WHY did he lie about following Trayvon. It shows that he was trying to detain him.
I generally find people who think they know everything to be amusing, unless they can’t STFU.
Unfortunately, most people who think they know everything just CAN’T seem to STFU … it’s against their know-it-all nature.
I see the trial so far as a 70/30 for the state. I’m very optimistic.
I think it is key that she never deviated from them running. And O’Mara never asked her about it. Zimmerman never mentioned this in his testimony.
also that means they were NOT on the ground completely contrary to zmans entire story on the ground from the first punch and on the bottom til the end.
Exactly! And THANKFULLY there is at least one other witness to attest to this.
Okay. Have been away. Someone is reporting that Trayvon was shot from the back, and that the police rolled him over to perform CPR. Is this true?
No. He was shot from front into the heart. Fogen has admitted to rolling him over to “restrain” him. Cops then rolled him over again.
Thank you.
And that part of rolling him over doesn’t add up because his arms weren’t outstretched.
Fogen has told so many versions, it’s hard to keep track.
@Trained Observer,
I went back twice to review the tragic photo of young Trayvon, as he lay dying.
We know Zimmerman flipped him over after the shot. (Chris Serino’s word, “flipped,” with which Fogen concurred.)
I am puzzled.
Trayon’s feet were both pointed in the same direction, and not splayed.
If Trayvon really WERE “mounted’ on Zimmernan, Trayvon’s knees would be bent and legs separated, if Zimmerman managed to “climb out from under.”
When Zimmerman flipped him over, Trayvon’s legs and feet would not be so neatly aligned
Trayvon’s head in the photo was pointed in the opposite direction to his feet.
What does this mean? .
MichelleO~ NOT TRUE. He was shot front to back. He was rolled over on his back to find an exit wound by the police who was performing CPR.
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Folks, nothing’s going to be perfect. Overall, the prosecution had a very good day. In particular, the cop and the tech were excellent.
If you had watched the Fogdoit during Selena’s testimony, you would know she hit closer to home than anyone else today! I think that considering the way she was treated by MOM she did extremely well and remained poised and under control during all of her testimony. Many times it is not the words that tell the story, but the way the story teller presents it….
She was poised and I don’t think many people would have done as well as she did under the same pressure.
ks~ very true. They were very concise, very believable.
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i think most women including those on the jury, can spot a bully from a mile away.
I thought also that they were remarkable. The tech sounded so calm and level-headed and she truly only answered in a way to respond to what was asked. The officer was great. You could just tell he is really competent and straightforward, no bluster. Very well-educated. There’s been other stuff about the cops, but I assume it was not talk about him…..
Look, A lot of us want things to run smoothly, I understand most of your frustrations right now. Patience comes to those who wait. You don’t see Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton in the courtroom showing anxiety because things aren’t moving fast enough to get Fogen put behind bars. We can’t do the same thing. It’s not going to happen in the first two days. There is protocol they have to meet in proving their burden. Yes, the State says be patient for a year… but the trial just started… if the trial midway doesn’t start proving their burden then worry… but this is just the 2nd day…. There has to be something to why BDLR is doing what he is doing… but whatever it is … O”Mara and West with Fogen will show their show true colors in doing so… that is what I’m hoping for. Let’s not get negative now…
I believe the State knows what it’s doing, and I think the State, with John Guy’s attention-getting easy-to-follow opener, is off to a solid start. .
As an aside, I think BDLR and associates are deliberately handing Defense some rope.
I hope so.
I am confident of this as well
it’s hard to say why but it is all in the body language of the three prosecutors and the fact that I now believe that the defense is arrogant, dense and-after the NEN call relevance reneging fiasco- ill-prepared enough to fall for it.
Well, I hope the prosecution starts tugging on that rope pretty soon and hangs them with that rope, stops letting MOM badger,disrespect, and turn the state’s witnesses into their witnesses.
Me, myself, and I do not understand how or why or what purpose BDLR would be handing defense some rope for. Defense has been given a little too much rope if you ask me. They’ve been given free rein to smear Fulton/Martin, Trayvon, and anyone else that supports justice for Trayvon. Never in my life have I seen a book published by a defendant’s parents and released a day before a murder trial smearing and blaming everyone one, including the victim for his own death, and justifying the murderer.
I need to go back to my corner, sit in silence, and observe. Sometimes silence is golden, but in my case, it’s more to keep from unleashing a bunch of expletives aimed at GZ and his sleazy lawyers. 🙂
Granny:
1) He is trying to do his job – make the witnesses crumble. He is trying to give the jury reasonable doubt. You know, if he can find a lie, the whole thing is not to be believe and you have doubt.
2) The more he does it (especially if it doesn’t work) the less the jury like him.
So it is kind of good that they let him get away with it. I don’t think they would let him get away with really beating up on a witness. But we’ll see.
we’ll see if people quit moving skeletors things so he can’t find them…….. 🙂
One of the great things about participating in blogs like this is that we are allowed to be super human in our approach to problems! How many of us actually can honestly say we would have done a better job than the prosecutors in this case? I know that I have read comments by various people on here today where they state, “I would have done this, or I would have said that”! I must then ask, why are you sitting home commenting on a blog rather than doing the job that you think you would be so good at? It sort of reminds me of watching parents sit in the bleachers at school sports events and hearing them say what a better job they could do than the coach is doing! If you are such a good attorney then why has the state of Florida not drafted you to conduct this case? Perhaps after you have walked a few feet in any one of their shoes you might have a different perspective on what you would or would not do!
crazy~ That’s not so crazy! I enjoy trying to understand their strategies. NO DOUBT there is always something that might have been included here and there (ie more knowledge about FB by the State) but overall, I would NOT like their jobs at all!
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@Cielo62:
I admit it was great that she never deviated from the running part. But she seemed completely caught off guard with the scheme teams approach to her. As a result, it made her look really unsure.
Scheme team?
Prof Zidiot here. Clean up on aisle 1!!!
I hope they read here, though, and get ideas.
I hate this reply function, it seems to have a mind of it’s own, I was trying to correct my spelling when it sent itself of into the blog sphere! But what I was trying to point out that the other day he was touch typing on his laptop. I have found that most men who do that are well versed and function quite well on a computer, unlike what he would like us to think.
who was touch typing and what is touch typing and huh??LOL
i don’t understand this:
“I have found that most men who do that are well versed and function quite well on a computer, unlike what he would like us to think.”
Sorry about the cut off comment, what I was trying to say was Don West was touch typing on his laptop! Early on in the massive number of hearings when it was suggested he had done something on the internet he had made the statement he was computer illiterate and could not have done anything on the computer…. This is just a small and inconsequential thing but struck me as strange to see him touch type after remembering that statement…. old minds work in strange ways!
I think the all-female jury will sympathize with witnesses who are badgered
Especially badgered for no valid reason.
Combine it with the disrespect for the female judge, the disrespect in title for the female CS Analyst, the intense badgering of a professional female witness, the blatant disrespect of every other female on the stand (ie 911 records admin) about his phone calles, etc….I think you have some pretty enlightened and offended female jurors.
E6, domestic violence victim. Not a good thing to badger a woman in front of a domestic violence victim. The defense will be beating up on Selma, on Jane, on Rachel on w12. All of them are women all of them made statements contradicting GZ. The defense will try to make them into liars, or hysterical women who can’t be taken seriously. I don’t think an all women jury will be much of an advantage to the defense.
I’m confused…which witness said that they saw movement going south to north? I know one of them said that in their interview with Serino or FDLE. I am 100% sure of that. If it wasn’t Selene, who was it?
It was this one’s sister who said that.
I thought it was Witness 2. She first described 2 people running towards the T. She later changed her statement saying she didn’t have her contacts in and saw only one person.
Much of the problem is due to the fact that the FDLE seems to have conducted some pretty cursory interviews in the early days. People who live in a townhouse in a town are not necessarily going to be Perry Mason and Lieutenant Columbo and Bob Woodward all rolled into one. They answered questions, some of which were put to them rather clumsily, and they did not get enough time to really be “picked clean” of all their information. If you look at the interview of DeeDee, for instance, she didn’t understand half the questions and the other half she was cut off mid-answer. I would have known how to ask her the questions in smaller pieces without compound sentences and she would have given much more information as we went along; but these SUITS, as good as they may be, are SUITS and they don’t always know how to adjust their run. That is, a lawyer or detective may not be as good at writing dialogue as a writer for made-for-TV crime shows.
Not to worry. Data is not perfect even in the most detailed of computer programs. But the human mind is a very FINE FINE computer, even the most ordinary human mind. I think these six jurors are able to understand the gist of what is being said.
That is, so far:
Trayvon was not scary or aggressive on 2/26/2012.
He was not even remarkable on 2/26/2012.
Fogen was not asked or told to follow him on 2/26/2012.
Trayvon was shot in such a way as to make the self-defense story physically impossible.
At least one witness observed a running, chasing, arm-flailing and yelling fight before the shot, moving from South to North towards the T.
Trayvon Martin was a normal teen-ager, not very physically imposing and not aggressive.
Fogen was a self-appointed NW captain, and aggressive.
Fogen was encouraged to, or at least not discouraged from, profiling people he saw at RTL. At least he believed he was.
Now, with only ten percent (tops) of the State’s case already on the record, I’d summarize the situation as follows:
It is probable that Fogen’s account of what he did that night is not true;
It is probable that Fogen profiled and followed Trayvon Martin;
It is probable that Fogen shot Trayvon Martin either with both standing or with Trayvon Martin on the ground or near the ground, but not likely that he shot him from underneath him; and
It is probable that Fogen chased Trayvon Martin from south to north between the houses, and shot him where the body was found.
It is very unlikely that West has a career in stand-up comedy — as unlikely as the idea that Junior has a career in broadcasting.
Not bad for a two-day start.
Oh, I didn’t know she changed her story. It’s been a while since I read any of those statements or any evidence. Thanks
How the the TreeHouse get Trayvon’s school records? That information is not subject to any public information requests.
I don’t see it. Where/what thread?
What information do they have?
Sundance has filed to get Trayvon’s school records. I read about it the other day. I like to lurk sometimes to see what is up out there. He said he had calls from the MDSP and they are speaking with their attorneys. I think if anyone can let Mr. Crump know he needs to contact them. Something is going on. He stated there was supposed to be a record that said he (Trayvon) was a danger to himself and others and he is ready to approach defense directly to provide information. I was going to bring this up but, I am so new to this I was not sure it was even real or being put out for another reason. That is what is written on that site in last few days. I also think this thread has turned decidedly negative and while it is not my site, I would prefer it returned to the supportive, positive site I have always known it to be.
@Leise, I remember reading that stuff. BREAKING: Another crackhead bombshell!!!! It’s just another attempt to tickle the birds in the conspiracy theory tree. They love that stuff, and never call him out on all the things he’s promised but never come thru on. They crack me up.
I thought he got that a long time ago. He just wanted to wait until the “right” time to release it. He has been “releasing stuff slowly” oh god, don’t fall for it.
Judy (below) says they have nothing. I wrote what I read but I am not knowledgeable enough about all of this to know for sure what’s really up. Thanks for the response Judy!
Also, just because he would find information doesn’t mean they will use it now. It would change all kinds of things. They would have to get it entered into court, interview and dipose more people, and the whol landscape would change – if it is even true. None of the wintesses want to stay there any longer than they have to. And it still has nothing to do with what happened that night.
Between Jury selection and this, this is the SECOND time that the prosecution has been caught off guard with FB. BDLR and that pretty boy he has next to him need to start checking FB pages of all of their witnesses from here on out. Come into the 21st Century!
And also these kids and their FB pages. GROW UP! If you are a part of a high profile trial don’t post anything on FB. If you are called into jury selection, don’t post your summons on FB. These young folks trust this stuff too much.
Back to the State! This should be the last time that they are caught off-guard by a twitter, tumblr or FB page.
The real issue is “OBJECTION, RELEVANCE” whenever that shit comes up.
which witness is she #1 or #2?
Witness #1
I recall some girl talking about a stove to FDLE and she was asked direction but I can’t find it.
And there was an earlier announcement that TM’s girlfriend will testify and she may have a sort of step by step progress of where these things started and progressed.
Lord Jesus if BDLR’s HORRIFIC deposition of her is any indication I expect her to get torn up on cross as well. Jesus be with us…and particularly the Martin family.
First make her take the gum out of her mouth. Second, I hope someone has taught her how to talk in the last year.
tasha~ do you take medications for anything? DOUBLE them.
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Yeah.
Tasha~ OH share those meds with Sophia (your sock puppet).
@Sophia
Really? :-l
@trasha,
Do not take Jesus name – or the Martins’- in support of your vitriol.
Your personal value to this process is bbbbbbbbbfgfgfgfgbbbbbbxxxxxx wwwwwssssssssssssssss hhhhhh just like your hero, Zimmerman,
Shut up and get lost. We see you for what you are:
Dog shit.
P- Mom: no, really. How do you really feel? 😉
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Just think the bottom line today, Fogen showed his anger and frustration today! Good Job Witness #1. I applaud you for that one.
There were some highlights in the states favor today but they could not afford to lose a witness they specifically mentioned in opening arguments. The end of the day was a major clusterfuck. And why are they calling crime scene witnesses already anyway? What about ballistics, DNA, something along the same lines as what they started earlier today?
The trial is just starting… be patient… you know what they say about patience… right? You save the best for last… All that is coming… They have to make their case… they can’t make it in the first couple of days.
smokeegyrl~ ThassssRight!!
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tasha~ you don’t understand FB but yet you want to direct the prosecution’s strategy? Girl, sit down before you hurt yourself.
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😀 Cielo.
@smokeegryl:
The state has been saying that we should be patient for a year and they are fucking up! This was a mess!
Sophia~ EXPLAIN to me how this was a mess? The witness was NOT impeached. She testified to RUNNING, which was nowhere in gz’s fairytale. She also testified to maybe impeaching Jon in front of his house. EXPLAIN why you think this was a disaster for the State?
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Tasha and Sophia are adding some strange elements to this thread. Hmmmmmm.
diary73~ You are SPOT ON. Trolls 1 and 2, followed by Dennis and Roderick2012. Be aware. Don’t feed the trolls.
Yes. And MOM showed all the world how TERRIFIED the defense team is of this thoughtful, soft-spoken Witness #1.
Very telling … and I hope we learn why as the trial progresses!
MOM will have a tarnished reputation after this case. Well I hope he does.
IMO, he already does!
(But, don’t forget, 47% of people nationwide actually wanted Mitt Romney to be our president….)
And let me just make one more point: there may be a witness that heard or saw something similar to what this witness heard or saw but the state allowed O’Mara to wage a clusterfuck war on their witness with very little rebuttal. The truth is her story is pretty consistent minus what direction they moved in but she mentioned movement before. She also likely knew the race of the two individuals by the time she spoke to police and still didn’t embellish by saying Zimmerman was on top of Martin, something she clearly could have said. In totality she heard and saw very little but the state allowed the defense to focus on the non-important parts of her testimony and then focus on Facebook when all of the witnesses have some type of bias. This is another BIG round the state lost.
But she never changed the direction that they moved in. No one asked her. Not even the defense. Plus, what BDLR should have pointed out is when she made her statement she might not have known that George Zimmerman was saying that he was attacked at the “T’. BDLR dropped the ball when he didn’t ask her this.
And if they can’t call her sister, then what gives? Her sister is the one to have claimed to have seen them running towards the “T”.
John, Witness #6, is going to be eaten alive because he retracted is MMA style comments. And one witness initially said that they saw GZ screaming and then turned around and said that they didn’t know who was screaming.
But I am so pissed with the state. More and more I am feeling that this is a dog and pony show. Considering that I feel that the bar needs to be met for people to even see Trayvon Martin and his family as human, let alone humans who deserve justice, stuff like this doesn’t help.
I think you are totally off base.
John, Witness #6 may have an enlightening story to tell in court under oath on why he recanted on his early “MMA” version to cops.
No BdlR should not have pointed that out. The defense screwed up big time. They have no excuse for never having asked her if she had an opinion about which way they were going.
She has said she heard running or movement in the back, beginning from her very first statement. Movement means there was a direction. Apparently the State asked her that question as a non recorded follow up. They are entitled to do that. The defense deposed her, and as BdlR pointed out, they had 31 pages of transcript from that deposition, but not once did West ask her ” which way do you think they were going” .
Sorry to disagree with you but I don’t believe this witness bombed. Granted, it could have been better but I did not feel she was lying and she admitted liking petition on Facebook and the ladies of the jury know how Facebook works and won’t find that is a reason to disregard her. I think her final comment was, I told what I remembered. That was not a bomb.
Leisa~ Exactly. I find it telling that she was very offended that the defense even implied that she came forward for notoriety. It took alot of convincing to get her to record her testimony. THIS is why people don’t get involved.
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tasha~ I don’t just see your assertion that the state “lost” this round. So she signed a petition online. So what? She pretty much established that gz and Trayvon RAN behind the house. gz NEVER mentions running ANYWHERE. She HEARD it going towards the T and away from where gz says he was parked. ALREADY she has shot holes in gz’s story about WHAT happened and WHERE. A witness only needs to be credible. They don’t need to be impartial.
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Tasha… you are speculated saying she likely knew the races…. you don’t know that… because she is saying she didn’t… also she is saying that she saw them in a stand up position… my goodness… don’t put words in the young lady’s mouth… and BDLR did stand up for her…
I’m saying by the time she gave her depos she knew and surely when they had the community meeting when she first spoke up she knew so her testimony is not biased against Zimmerman but she lied initially about her FB postsv regarding this case
No she did not lie. She immediately admitted to liking a FB page. And that was what she pointed out to O’Mara, liking an FB page is not the same as signing a petition.
So please stop misrepresenting what she said.
Stop trolling.
Another big round lost? Nope. It was a good day.
In addition, the BIG rounds haven’t even started.
There is so much to come and Mom’s bullying this woman does not mean the State’s case is in the toilet. When did it get so negative around here? Kinda sounds like bashing of the state and the witness here today. Just sayin…
Leisa~ Something called the “Tasha Troll Effect” has fallen upon us. Today went well. Several BIG hits against the defense. And several Zidiots are attempting to plant dissent and negativity here. Tasha is one of 4 I know of already.
@ tashatexas – Can’t agree about this being any “big round” or that “the state lost.” As for witnesses having “some type of bias” – NONE have more bias than the killer who incompetently weaved a “web of lies” to cover up his murderous conduct. And that “web of lies” will continue to be revealed throughout the trial.
@ groans. Doesn’t tasha sound like a new troll. JMO.
Mary Davis- that’s been the consensus so far! Thanks for your vote!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
She trashed me when I disagreed by writing one sentence saying that the last witness today was not stupid.
Her trashing response to me (which was hurtful) was
Nothing wrong with her having signed a petition. It would have only looked bad & might’ve impeached her testimony if she had lied about it, so wipe the sweat off your brows folks, its all good!! 😛
That’s my feeling. Just because OM tries to make her look bad doesn’t mean she is. She held her own quite well.
I don’t think she signed it
I believe when you click “like” on Facebook, that is akin to signing the petition.
what else do you believe?
Tzar~ probably voodoo economics and the Easter Bunny.
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ha ha ha
I think we got a nut from the treehouse trying to be stealthy
I concur. Hysterical stealthy.
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and what does “sign” mean to you? does that involve putting your name on something
tasha~ NO, it does NOT. When you sign a petition, you are REDIRECTED to that petition’s HOME SITE, you either plug in your info or it’s automatically submitted BUT YOU HIT SUBMIT TO ACTUALLY SIGN. When you “like” something, that’s all it means. You endorse either the idea or the message. Maybe, if you have kids in 2nd grade or older, you can get them to explain how FB works and NOT post untrue info.
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NOT TRUE. Liking a post is NOT the same as signing the petition, but OM wants the jury to think so. To sign the petition you had to go to Change.org to sign the petition. The notice of it that she had on FB that she liked may have come to her from a friend on FB, or if she’s already signed up to Change.org she would get a notice from them, or she could have gotten it from another news source.
exactly
can someone alert the prosecution?
Signing a petition is a prior good act. It does not deter from her story OR impugn her character OR impeach her testimony. The idea that signing the petition is a bad thing and shows racism or bias is a lie being peddled by the defense. DO NOT GO FOR IT. All it means is that once you are known to have signed that petition, Fogen will remove you from his Christmas card list!
There is nothing wrong with signing a petition, no, but lying about it when asked? YES!
she never signed it
she never lied
I’m pretty sure he got the lady to admit she signed it. Let’s not start being totally blind to everything like the Zimbots. This witness bombed, period.
No tasha, apparently liking that FB is the equivalent to signing the petition. That is the trick O’Mara played but because BDLR is so stupid, apparently, when it come to social media, he didn’t bother to ask the distinction on re-direct. That is where Guy should have come in. They need to get someone in that office who is a young person and knows about FB. Between jury selection and now, this is the second time that they have been caught with their pants down regarding FB. They need to check to see if every witness has a FB page, twitter, and tumblr.
Tasha~ IN case you didn’t notice, she was never given the opportunity to SAY whether she did or not. She did NOT lie.
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She said she didn’t sign it.
Troll?
Two Sides~ She gets my vote, right from one of the lower branches of a treehouse.
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wow, you need to calm down tasha
Where did you get she lied from?? Don’t you think if that were the case it would be all over the news by now. Its not confirmed whether she signed or liked a petition, but that doesn’t even matter. She just testified to what she saw & she signed or liked a petition. No biggie, calm down…geez
Geez, tashatexas. It didn’t sound to me like she either: (1) signed a petition; or, (2) lied about signing a petition. I recall her asking MOM: “Is ‘liking’ it the same as signing it?” And the obvious answer is: No.
From what I saw, it was MOM who was deceiving in that exchange! (No surprise there!)
From what Witness 1 stated in the Left to Right theory… I always believe Fogen is the one that cut through the houses instead of TM…that Fogen cut TM off preventing him from getting home. I believe that Fogen has seen TM before and knew where he was staying. I have a gut feeling about this; my gut feelings come from the pit of my soul and I don’t have these often so when I do get them.. there on point. Everything that Fogen says that TM did that night… It is really what he did… It’s called a Mirror Effect… http://smokeegyrl.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/a-game-to-commit-a-perfect-crme-with-lies-and-manipulation/
That may be true but that has nothing to do with 100% pure tomphuckfoolery we just witnessed in court, where it matters.
true that…. but I do know where it will count… it may not count here on this earth… but it will count where he will be going NEXT. I wonder if will carry a CCW in Hell.
Tasha~ Yeah the DEFENSE really phucked up, huh?
I’ve said pretty much the same thing elsewhere, smokeegyrl, but it’s also possible that GZ just ran down from the ‘T’ and drove Trayvon back up the ‘dog walk’ I think that even without what this witness said today, the evidence trail supports that one of these two things happened. That means that Z either dropped his keys and flashlight near the ‘T’ before he ran down it, which seems unlikely, or he hurried back there after he shot Trayvon and deliberately placed them there.
I think he deliberately dropped it there… before the police got there.
I completely agree. The only way any version of GZ’s story makes sense is to reverse it
This is why I believe that GZ was climbing around in the bushes, sneaking around corners… looking for Trayvon….
I also think it explains the injuries.
I am absolutely LIVID at the State and this godawful witness THAT GUY MENTIONED IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT. So if the state cannot prove all elements of their case that’s reasonable doubt and that’s an acquittal.
I am extremely angry at the witness for lying thru her teeth at most about having sympathy for the dumb ass Zimmerman’s who just wrote a book blaming black people for all racism and possibly about what she saw or heard. How are we to know the truth from her, she clearly lied on the witness stand NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
Okay, I’m a little confused, I admit I thought she was her sister. So, what did she outright lie about? What did I miss?
Nef05~ You didn’t miss anything Tasha is freaking out and totally lost. She (the witness) never varied in her testimony. She was honest that her experience was limited. She didn’t SEE anything and nobody had ever asked her about the direction of what she clearly stated she HEARD. Someone needs to put a sock in Tasha. Her negativity is distracting and WAY off base.
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Very distracting.
CIELO62 said:
@ CIELO62 – This is mean and ugly – which NOBODY here deserves!!
You made similar insults against me last night for no reason other than for expressing thoughts, feelings, and/or frustrations that differed from yours.
I don’t know when, where, or why you copped YOUR ATTITUDE that you can flatly “dis” other people and their thoughts and opinions here; treat them rudely, insensitively, and disrespectfully; and insult them as if you consider them less than human.
Who died and made you the THOUGHT DICTATOR for this blog? (Hint: Nobody!)
You’re so intolerant of and aggressive towards others lately that you sound like a close-minded reverse-Zidiot. If you think OTHERS are too full of “negativity,” I suggest that you look in the mirror and take a long, honest look at yourself.
Nice try Taaffee
Did she lie? I could not see everything today so please if there was a lie tell me.
If you refer to the left-to-right episode there is no element proving that it was a lie. Wit #1 (Selene Bahadoor) never changed her account of the events. It is just the 1st time that she was asked about the direction of the running steps she heard.
Actually, Selene’s sister (Suzanna, W02) lied to Serino, claiming her sister’s story as hers. MOM mentioned that briefly. But, doing so, he actually proved Selene’s point. Indeed, Suzanna told that the stepping noise was going from south to north. Since we know that she was just repeating what her sister told her, then Selene must have been telling the truth when she said to MOM that she actually told her sister about what direction were the steps.
I could not figure out if t was #1 or #2. I’m still digging. but one of them said they were running about 1 car length apart.
Tashatexas, why don’t you try following this case so you’ll have half a clue on what is what? There is no evidence that the witness today in any way lied.
TO – Please don’t adopt cielo62’s new habit of insulting others. You have so much to say (and I enjoy your input very much), but so do others.
Groans- maybe people don’t like being treated as fools. I call what I see.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Cielo @ Groans
W1 or Selena has been very consistent. I can hit my self over the head for assuming that she saw them on the ground. She never said that either. As a matter of fact, I think for other reasons, she is one of the least influenced witnesses, because of something else she said. I hope that BdlR didn’t dig deeper into one of her other statements, because of his strategy. If he just missed that point, I will be worried about this case. One thing I almost know for sure, is that the defense didn’t pick up on that one either. If I am right, she’ll be back on the stand later and you will see O’Mara and West completely explode.
When O’Mara asked her if she liked the FB page, she immediately said yes. What O’Mara showed her was her FB page where she liked the petition page, not her signature on a petition.
Just listen to the recordings of her statements again, she did not change any part of her statement, and she sounds very believable. It doesn’t mean what she saw and heard was exactly what happened, but she was sincere in relating what she saw and heard.
Amsterdam- exactly. She even said it the end “I reported what I heard. ”
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Cielo says:
Oh, I understand you.
There’s nothing wrong with YOU if you treat people like fools – it’s THEIR fault if they don’t like it! Let’s see … who does that remind me of. Oh, I know! George Zimmerman!! And all YOU do is “call what you see” (what else matters, after all, right?). Gosh, that sounds familiar, too…. Yup – a classic Zidiot mindset.
Amsterdam, do me a favor. Get a greeting card and write the point that you thought of (which I still haven’t figured out) and send it by actual physical mail to BDLR or Corey and try to get it there within this week or by Saturday so he will have it by Monday morning next. Or, better yet, if you know someone in the US close to Florida or who could get it to the FDLE offices sooner (written on paper, not electronically), let them know about it so they get it there faster. I am wracking my brain to figure out what you mean but I know there are a few little gems to be uncovered — the problem is that steamrollers don’t always find little gems. I DO SO WANT to see O’Mara and West explode when Serene is recalled to the stand on rebuttal.
I’ll re-post this on the “today” thread.
The elements of the crime are:
KILLED
Depraved Mind without regard for human life &
ill will or malice.
An affirmative defense is self-defense.
You don’t show self-defense by attacking a fact being put into evidence that says a fight was moving along as the fighters both were RUNNING and they went from left to right. Or conversely, that a fight was moving along as the fighters both were RUNNING and they went from right to left.
You MIGHT really be able to cast doubt on a story told by a defendant who claims that he did not run, the victim did not run, and they went from north to south, of course.
But this is a brick in the wall, not a skyhook. Here’s how the proof looks to me:
KILLED – admitted
DEPRAVED MIND: “These assholes, they always get away” and “Shit; he’s running” and “There’s been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy…” (in other words, profiling, and profiling inaccurately)
ILL WILL: “Fucking Punks”
And as to self-defense? Let the defense put on their claim of self-defense. Then we’ll see how the prosecution deals with it.
After listening to the officer’s testimony about giving mouth-to-mouth to Trayvon trying to save his life it makes me think how depraved GZ is for not trying to help Trayvon.
Ya think?……
That Cop is hell of a lot more man than fogen could ever hope to be….There you saw a cop that was truly doing his job….selfless and for the community….
Hell he didn’t even know who TRAYVON was……..Could have been a crack head thug…….Yet this man took the risk to place his mouth against Trayvon’s in an effort to save his life…..
While fogen thinks he just bagged a trophy “buck”…asshole…
I hope to hell fogen getting a good taste of what it is to be a REAL man…..men like Tracy Martin and this Officer……
HOODIES UP
I hope GZ’s family are watching court on live stream and realize what an ugly depraved weasel they are supporting.
That broke my heart but it was nice hearing the life saving efforts. The officer also sat the child up looking for an exit wound. Where was the killer when this happened? Was he handcuffed? Depraved mind indeed. He made no attempt to get help for the child he killed.
The site is working today!
Naw….he was busy discussing what type of ammo he used for the kill………..You don’t see the NRA (of which I’m a member) supporting his DEPRAVED ass…..
For any South Park fans……….fogen could be Cartman personified….. “Respect my authoriteye” F’n POS….
Yes you are right. They exploded because they missed it. I can’t believe they never asked her which way she thought they were running. We all knew she heard running feet, did anyone here assume we knew which direction she heard those running feet?
I am still pissed at my self for assuming she saw them on the ground. She never said that either, I just assumed that, because of John’s statement. But if Selena never saw any of the fighting on the ground, why would she assume she had to clarify that she saw them in a upright position?
This was a big fail on the part of the defense. Selena sounds very believable in her recorded statements. It doesn’t mean the jury will believe that what she heard was correct, but I think they will believe that she is genuine in her believe that was what she heard.
tashatexas – It didn’t sound to me like the witness today (W1) was lying.
That said, I did go back to listen to some of her interview tapes, as well as her sister’s (W2). From the parts I heard, it does seem that it was her sister who told about the south-to-north movement of the altercation, not her. Also, it seems that her sister (W2) told Serino that she (the sister) was downstairs cooking – not upstairs, as today’s witness testified. And that does give me cause for concern.
Is that what you’re referring to – or part of what you’re referring to?
do you have any chill pills?
Disc McCoy- I already told her to double whatever she was taking.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Hey, if Fogen’s head was banged when exactly on 2/26? I thought fogen said killed TM b/c his head was repeatedly banged, BUT seeing where TM’s body was, how is that possible?
Well, Selene’s sister, Suzanna, is the worst of all witnesses.
Selene (Wit 1), at least, has always been consistent with her depositions, and see how hard it was for her on the stand.
The 1st deposition Suzanna (Wit 2) made was to Serino. What she did then was to take her sisters story for herself forcing her later to fully recant. I really don’t want her on the stand.
What strikes me is that MOM clearly want to discredit Selene by associating her testimony to the lies her sister Suzanna told to Serino.
The State won’t put her on the stand, so we will never hear from her. W1 has been consistent. You can’t blame her that West never bothered to ask her which way she thought they were moving.
The T and the direction they were moving, did not have any meaning to the witnesses when they made their first statements.
Is she on the state’s witness list?
But the prosecution might. So the state better prepare her.
Hopefully the state has the good sense not to call her sister who will no doubt get on the stand and say she saw something downstairs when O’Mara got the first one to say her sister would be lying if she said she saw what happened downstairs.
I’ll tell you one thing, I smell an acquittal not because Fat Fk is innocent but because the city of Sanford IN ITS ENTIRETY is made up of a bunch of missing chromosome imbeciles. How the hell do you not care that someone got shot near your back door? Keep in mind that the jurors are made up of the same litany of dumb civilians that both sides will parade into court to testify.
The first one did not say that he sister would be lying. She said she could speak to her sister’s testimony.
I agree with you Tasha.
I meant to say that she said that she could NOT speak to her sister’s testimony.
I do agree about the acquittal. I mean we could have video of Zimmerman murdering Trayvon Martin but because he is a black boy it would still be an uphill battle to get a conviction. Ask Ayiana Jone’s family.
@Sophie
Aiyana Jones’ family was harboring a wanted murderer, in their home and at least two family member knew it, before the cops busted in with the warrant. Secondly, the cop said from day one that the grandmother jumped at him and grabbed the gun, and it went off. That whole thing was a hot mess, and that poor baby died because of it.
That said – I thought the charges were appropriate and he should have been convicted. But, he wasn’t acquitted. It was a hung jury. The judge set the pre-trial hearing for July 25th. Kim Worthy does not play and she’s not scared of cops or anyone else. She got the conviction of Budzyn and Nevers for the Malice Greene police murder, Kwame Kilpatrick to plead to 2 of 8 felonies and she has over 90% conviction rate in trials. She’ll get him.
How do you know what Suzanna said?
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-2-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
Racist defense. They didn’t look at the 7-11 cashier’s fb page….
I wonder how her testimony will weigh-in?
I think a lot will depend on the other (state) witnesses. If what she said is in line with others then many little flaws can be forgiven and forgotten. If she is an outlier, then things will be more difficult.
In particular I am very interested in W6’s testimony.
If it were me, I would’ve said… Hey, somebody killed somebody behind my house… why wouldn’t I want this to be investigated… I didn’t know who it was… I have right as a citizen… especially if the culprit is still on the loose. you got a problem with that…
You would have said that, I would have said that. I believe that any number of ladies here would have said that. But, she didn’t have an assertive personality, in that manner. She might just be a Type B personality, or it may have something to do with the culture/environment she was raised in.
I think she did as well as she could, under the circumstances. I agree she could have been more prepared. But, I also think that BDLR realized there would be some weakness in her testimony, which was why she went so early. They’ll probably be building to the stronger witnesses toward the end of their case, and this lady will not have any great impact on the jury’s deliberations. IMO
The state should have been more on the ball and object sooner.
Maybe they figure they don’t need to though.
And they don’t.
She did great IMO.
It must be difficult for the jury though not talking about anything
among themselves.
I think she stood her ground against Mr O’Bully! I wonder every time Mr. O’Bully questions a black witness is he going to intimidate them with round about racial suggestive type questions?
Well hopefully this witness does not come back to bite the Prosecution in the butt. I do question why Mr West would not ask since Fogen is denying any running or standing. I mean I thought he said knocked on his ass with the first hit. Now we are to believe witnesses can not be traumatized by witnessing a murder/killing?
Hopefully the State will have a moment when Fogen testifies that a LE or State Atty did not ask a simple question yet Fogen is to be believed because the question was never asked. I think I should never be a witness. At my age and a grown man talking to me that way would get him a punch in the mouth on my way out of court room.
“At my age and a grown man talking to me that way would get him a punch in the mouth on my way out of court room.”
I’m right there with you!
Disappointed~ forgot to add that we would have no doubt been in a jail cell afterwards, it would have been worth it to me.
Well OK, punch him in the mouth but don’t look down at your shoes and mumble “mf” and DON’T ask him “What’s your problem, homie?”
OMG I have an idea. Send a postcard to MOM’s office asking:
“What’s your problem, homie?” 😆
😆
You two are crazy! I appreciate that you did not judge me for being violent. It is not the norm for me, I raised 4 boys without whipping them. Not that I did not want to but for fear I may not stop! Boys were rough on their Momma. Frogs, snakes, bugs anything with legs brought in. Dead birds. Eww. You know normal boy stuff with a real girly girl for a Mom.
Just because the defense tried to discredit her doesn’t mean that the jury must take it the same way. It may put doubt in some minds, not so much in others if they feel the defense is bullying her.
That much was obvious to everyone I think. I hate bullies.
I am quite biased and cannot make a judgement – how do others feel it went with the “left to right” witness and what’s the bigger picture here?
Will a jury find her credible?
I thought she was credible. She had no MOTIVE to lie back when she gave her statements. I also think MOM came off as a sleaze and a bully insinuating this witness was lying and wanted fame. I see nothing wrong with wanting justice for Trayvon once all the facts came out. At the time she gave her statement she didn’t know anything about Trayvon or GZ to take a side. Hope the jurors are smart enough to figure that out. I also liked the fact that no one at all on defense was interested enough to even ask the witness what direction they were going.
Willis~ She seemed credible because you can tell that MOM was badgering her and TRYING to trip her up. She never changed her mind about what she HEARD. She was very consistent about the limitations of her experience. I think she did a credible job, establishing 2 things: 1. that there was RUNNING (something that gz NEVER mentioned) and 2. that it was AWAY from gz’s truck and TOWARDS the T.
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Cielo I agree and fogon just had a ” hostile moment”. Haaaaaaaa!
It think that it may be abit of a wash. But I think she came thru that she just hadn’t thought in the detail of “left to right” and no one asked her. That’s pretty reasonable. It that is the biggest concern, I think OM made much more about it than is there.
exactly, I believe that O’Mara came off as a bully with these women jurists… O’Mara has to remember how women feels about women and bullying especially the one juror who has been a victim of domestic violence.
smokee, I agree. If I were on that jury, I would have cringed at how O’M badgered her and how arrogant he came across.
I think she came across as honest. The prosecution needs to be more proactive with these witnesses though. They know they are up against the dirtiest with O’Mara and their lack of preparation is showing. They were given an indication in jury selection that the defense is going after social media. They need to get on top of this, it’s not too late.
@type- hit the nail on the head! I expressed the same thoughts up thread. They know, or should know by now, how MOM thinks and anticipate which of their witness testimonies will likely come under attack by the defense. Better to be proactive, than reactive!
As Sr. QA analyst testing software, I was required to test the code the developers had written, to ensure it would work in QA environment before being implemented in production. But what I preferred, was actually finding ways to break their code.
Errrr…. kinda not good. There is a sense that it could backfire. I don’t like it, it’s a bit too intrusive for my style to scope in on somebody’s FB page. Maybe the jury will think so?
Well, I mean..
It could be viewed as not a big deal at all. I don’t think it’s going to be 100% credible amongst ALL of the jury, tho.
IMO she held up good, I first learned of this on the news NBC did a report on the murder (myabe Dateline). There are other witnesses who may testify and were ignored by the detectives, or their witness statements was changed by the detectives others told this was self-defense when the witness said this was murder so I won’t be surprised if there are more witnesses who may have signed a petition. Also, petitions show up on my FB all the time friends and orgs that you liked will do that time to time.
Girlp, I signed that petition and remember not being aware of the incident prior to reading it, but felt the person who killed that teenager should be arrested, at least. Who kills someone and isn’t even arrested? Because I signed it didn’t mean I was on one “side” or the other, at that point, but certainly was appalled that the killer wasn’t going to have to answer for what he did. Seems perfectly logical to me. Part of the definition of justice is fairness and anyone who signed that petition had every right to expect that it be shown for Trayvon Martin. O’Mara better look up the word “justice” since he thinks it shouldn’t be available to Trayvon and only for his scummy client.
In the end she said “I’m just saying what I remember.” That was the truth. The looks on fogen’s face & MOM’s hateful treatment towards her was pretty telling. They know she is very damaging. She was soft spoken, but kept saying “left to right”. I do hope this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. The whole defense table disgusts me.
anita~ alas it WILL happen again. It’s all the defense has now.
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I think jurors will wonder why MOM harshly examined this witness as he did. Remember that none of the facts of Fogen’s defense narrative that we’ve all seen and heard are in evidence before the jury. This witness did well, but MOM knows that she cut their defense at the knees and they can no longer credibly put forth that it started all started at the “T.” MOM’s choice was either to impugn her credibility or come up with another defense narrative.
Selene Bahadoor POSSIBLY signed the change.org petition to have George Zimmerman arrested. The petition link O’Mara showed that was on her FB page could have been put there by someone else sharing a link with her, on her page. She actually never confirmed signing the petition. Court officers such as lawyers etc really need to get up to speed on how FB actually works otherwise shysters like O’Mara will continue to use it to get points against them and use it against them during trial. Looks like O’Mara put the nuthouse denizens to work on investigating the witness list and the prosecution was not as successful. Overall I think Selene did a pretty good job for herself under the adverse circumstances.
Which makes BLDR look like a damned fool for not clearing that up.
she did in fact sign the petition …….. to me she didn’t flinch she told what she heard serino did not ask her for the direction of the running
Just as:
How could Trayvon have hidden to try to kill Fogen when he did not know Fogen would get out of the car to chase him down?
so, also:
How could W-1 make up what she saw and heard when she did not know at the time that Fogen’s story, upon which his theory of innocence was based, had him up at the T and being punched in the nose in a homie-ambush?
All these ridiculous speculations depend upon the kind of knowledge nobody but Adrian Monk ever HAS.
Deborah~ I believe Witness 1 did a very good job. She didn’t give an inch, and asked questions when MOM’s bs was confusing. I felt she was credible and that MOM was the one who was confused or confusing on purpose. I felt like MOM badgered the witness to get an answer HE wanted. I like she ended with “I told them what I remembered.” THERE!
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I agree, Cielo. She did fine. Her information went in. She did not go farther than her recollection took her — she did not say she could see which person was which. She did not say she heard things she could not hear. She’s fine.
They have a tip line for each witness and post anything they think is not true and someone is texting that info into court. Did you see one of the girls walk up and show West and Mom her phone?
Yes, OM tried to make it seem the same as the outed juror’s remark on FB and it’s two different things.
exactly
Omara’s slight of hand was not lost on you
I see why people like Casey Anthony got off. The state prepared this lady HORRIBLY!!! How utterly stupid not to bring up the pettions on their own or at least just re-cross and ask her about her consistently saying she heard MOVEMENT. Why the hell would he bring up anything else in cross, force O’mara to address only the most important point and that is she has previously spoken about movement. Goddang that was stupid!
Bet they won’t make that mistake again.
I have to wonder how many witnesses signed the petition?
With having voir dire fresh in their minds, I think MOM is trying to confuse jurors with notion that witnesses are held to the standard of impartiality.
This wit saw a murder in progress. She signed a petition asking for investigation and prosecution. She had every right to do so. That does not preclude her from being an honest, reliable witness.
TO~ EXACTLY! Too bad Bernie doesn’t say that to the jurors.
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The Conservative Treehouse strikes again, with that petition. I’m watching WFTV and the commenters there were mentioning it well before O’Mara ever introduced it. . Many commenters seem to believe that witnesses are required not to have any bias, but if that were true, witnesses wouldn’t be called for the state or for the defense, and there wouldn’t be many trials if every one was required to be neutral.
elcymoo~ then people are stupid. JURORS need to be unbiased. WITNESSES need to be truthful.
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Yep, cielo. Defense attorneys shouldn’t tell blatant lies and misrepresent facts on behalf of their clients, either, but O’Mara and West wouldn’t have anything if they didn’t.
If anyone who witnessed a crime and thereafter actively sought justice for the victim of the crime was not allowed to be a witness, well then we wouldn’t have to BOTHER with all these courts, would we?
It’s kind of hard to expect a witness to be unbiased when they witness a murder … especially when the murder is not arrested.
dianetrotter~ AND he lives in your neighborhood, AND you know he’s armed AND you know he hates black folk. Yeah LOTS of reasons to want to stay safe.
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I would expect her dumb ass to just go ahead and admit that though instead of saying, “I happy sympathy for the Zimmerman family as well.” I hope I never see that dumb lady again not because I don’t believe she heard anything but because when sitting on the biggest stage of her life she failed! I also blame the state for its poor preparation of her and BLDR not rehabilitating her one more time when given the chance. He sucks.
What?????????
diary~ Tasha must have switched to another station. That never happened.
She probably does have feelings of compassion for fogen s family, I have to counter my dislike for him & his by saying God loves the sinner but hates the sin, she is not a bigot, she is trying to be honest. It is sad that the zclan’s hate is so strong, it blinds them from repentance
Her sister should be prepared. Bernie better prepare her well.
Leisa, I hear you on that it just looks bad that she has an agenda, especially being a witness for the state. I have no problem with it myselfl The big bad duhfense team will make it a big deal
What “agenda”? A desire to see justice done? Somebody witnesses a murder and wants the perpetrator to be prosecuted? How does that look bad? They’ve already picked a jury. She doesn’t have to be neutral–just tell the truth.
Thank you for mentioning that the witness does not have to be neutral. Just consider the shit stain MO’M put on the witness stand yesterday regarding Tracy Martin threatening him in the court room. But wait, it did not actually occur in the courtroom. It actually occurred (if it did in fact occur) between the set of doors between leading to the doors that open to the court room. Timothy is a close friend of GZ. Witnesses are not juries. They can have whatever bias they want to have because they witnessed something that would surely shape their opinion.
She is a witness because gz killed a kid behind her house. She didn’t just ask to be one. She is also a citizen and allowed to have an opinion about whtever she wants to have an opinion about, just like the juror that thought Trayvon was partially to blame for his murder. Omara fought to keep this juror who was clearly biased. She went to gz’s funding site & thought about donating but didn’t, yet she is worthy to become a juror. Why then, isn’t this witness unworthy to be a witness?
Worthy. You know what I meant.
Because the witnesses are those witnessed something; she was in the wrong place when the noise occurred. Witnesses come from a very limited pool, as a rule.
She is not unworthy to be a witness.
Her credibility was attacked and it’s up to the jury to decide whether to believe her.
This case is not going to be won or lost because of this witness.
masonblue~ OT. How is Nikko? A post yesterday mentioned problems of a bird nature. Hope he’s OK and your birthday was satisfying.
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She certainly did not appear to be lying or trying to be sly about anything. She came across as just trying to tell what she knows. I thought for a second she was going to cry(I would have) but she was very strong.
Did JN rule on the past nen calls coming in?
I thought she was going to cry also. I kinda wish she would’ve.
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE PROSECUTION PUT HER ON THE STAND! She has ALWAYS appeared to be a weak witness, IMO.
Perhaps to support the other witnesses.
Even if the jury considers her questionable, they now have the idea of a South to north pursuit and a standing struggle in their heads… on the menu, so to speak…
Good point.
The state may be getting rid of the weakest witnesses first but I missed the part about the signing of the petition… I seen Fogen shaking his head… What was that all about?
” I seen Fogen shaking his head… What was that all about?”
Fogen thinks she hung herself & he is so much smarter than those black people. He is sick!
I think you are wrong. In her first interview with Serino she states she heard/saw “running at the back”. GZ never talked of any running at all. Any running in any direction puts the idea in the Jury’s head that GZ was past the T, not on the way back to his car.
In her March 9 audio interview with Serino, she says the running was towards the tee. She has to say it a few times to Serino as he mistakes her house for one of the E/W townhomes at the top of the tee.
I’d say even better if correct, or was that her sister that said that as whonoze suggested up or down thread.
uhoh, that was her sister who said they were running toward the tee.
No, her story builds the scene too. Eventually, brick by brick, they are building a solid wall of CONVICT. I’m not worried about their plan OR their evidence.
@tzar, actually, a lot of what MOM is getting her to admit, Bernie should have addressed on direct. What I observe about his style of questioning is that he’s only looking to elicit testimony that helps the state…and doesn’t seem to spend the amount of time with his own witness, that the defense does. IMO, when he’s finished direct questioning, he should have covered any possible question the defense could think to ask on redirect, and not have his witness looking like a lost little lamb.
I agree.
Perfect example…on direct, when he asks about the arms flailing…he doesn’t get her to demonstrate…but MOM did. Imo, that’s something Bernie should have gotten her to do. If he had, he would have seen that her demonstration, looked like someone punching, vs someone trying to break free of someone holding you against your will.
KittySP, The thing that you are not looking at with clear focus is the way that MOM and West are interrogating the witness will seem very harsh and unnecessary to the jury and will do less harm the way they force it out of the witness!
@crazy, I don’t don’t disagree. Personally, I’m not concerned with how the jurors perceive the defense due to their unprofessional behavior. My point is that if the state is on their game on direct, that the defense is left with very little to work with on cross. He should want to clear up any ambiguity on direct.
If you want to hang a fool, you hand them the rope, you give them the chair to climb upon, and then allow them to talk their way off the chair….
crazy~ I hear that Bernie has an open account at Home Depot to provide as much rope as they need! 🙂
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Now we’re talking!
Thank you Mr BDLR, they never asked.
So what if she signed so did 2 million others!
She is still a witness.
What a sleazebag this Omara is.
What was the last question MOM asked her about how did you know how to answer Bernie’s question? What did she reply?
She said she was just saying what she saw. She did say on her first interview with Serino “running in the back”, so what she never said the direction, no one ever asked her either and maybe she didn’t remember at the time or just didn’t think the direction was important. And as I have said above, wtf which way they were running, GZ never mentioned running not once, he was either downed by the T or stumbled along in the re-enactment, but running not, and even if he was running right to left he was still way past the T.
He asked her about signing the petition when she had declined something else b/c she didn’t want to get on national TV. He wouldn’t let her explain or wouldn’t take what she had to say…if that is the part you are talking about. It was the last exchange, I think.
She said that she simply was telling them what she saw! Kind of went over MOM’s head….. I suppose he is not used to people being honest, he probably thinks all people are like he and his client!
She said she only said what she remembered.
Touche.
Thanks everyone!
So whats the summary for the day? I think the prosecution looked great & the defense looked good to racists. Whay say you?
Considering the make-up of the jury, I think it is harder for them to see racism.
Unless its perceived to be from a person of color.
I saw his racism with his first statements, & I’m an old white woman, mom stinks of racism
Vickie- EXACTLY! You don’t have to be a person of color to recognize racism.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Don’t know how it happened but its back. Could you ban it again please? Thank you.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog > Date: July 12, 2013, 12:01:02 AM CDT > To: alphamonster@yahoo.com > Subject: [New comment] Discussion regarding Bernie de la Rionda’s closing argument > Reply-To: “Frederick Leatherman Law Blog” > > >
Mission accomplished. She posted from a different IP address. Both addresses are banned.
Thank you kind sir.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Not sure defense looked good even to the most die-hard racists.
Was happily surprised by testimony of CSI Diane Smith. Hadn’t anticipated her professionalism or appeal.
🙂
Trained Observer~ I found myself trusting her statements. Very professional.
GZ looks furious. Evidently he didn’t see a jury response to MOM’s act that he wanted.
@Xena, hello my fellow AA racist, lol. it really looked to me that O’$hit bag, was trying to go for a Perry Mason moment with this last witness. his drama and theatrics are uncalled for and, they have no place in a court of law.
I’m praying very hard and, asking that this waste of brain cells, is allowed to get away with this murder of this child. I sure would like to know, exactly how would those who want to see the murderer of this child walk away from this a free village idiot, if this was their child or a white child in general.
They certainly wouldn’t be showing their ignorance and, I HOPE THEY ARE ALL SATISFIED WITH SEEING TRAYVON’S IMAGE AS HE LOOKED ON THE NIGHT HIS LIFE WAS TAKEN. they can no longer make those insane comments anymore. the ignorance that has surrounded this case, is pathetic and so are the ones showing it.
“I was just saying what I remembered”
That’s what MOM get for not being thorough in his depo of this witness.
Are they now deciding the fate of the phone calls?
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No not until tomorrow morning.
Wasn’t that good…She couldn’t or wouldn’t dance to his tune, and he was rude and furious.
That was perfect! ROFLMAO!
Did that murdering M F’er just shake his head as if he is disgusted with somebody???? Grrrrrrrr MOM live by Facebook and social media!
Oh my Fogen is shaking his head! Yeah! He did not like her and someone on that jury had to see it..
Did you see his eyes when she said standing. They got very big as if to say she saw enough.
Yes. The biggest take-away from the cross-exam of this witness is that she apparently REALLY hit a nerve! That’s very obvious.
The defense doth (or didth) protest too much, methinks!
The petition being on her facebook page is NOT the same as signing it you smarmy asshole.
And Bernie needed to re-direct on that!
But, remember, he’s not savvy about social media, as he’s said many times. Too bad … one of those younger state attorneys should have slipped him a note!
dang, was it my petition?
Yes prosecute the killer of our son. Now what?
What petition?
Why doesn’t Bernie ask her what made her think they were standing? Height, arms in relation to buildings, etc. ? Please Bernie ask her something like that.
OMG MOM is one disrespectful ignorant SOB
So what if she signed the petition? She wanted it to be investigated. Not a damn thing wrong with that.
Dammit! She signed the petition! ugh!
So she signed it!! She, like everybody else, wanted a TRIAL because she no doubt didn’t appreciate being blown off by the LEOs!
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actually she never said she did
and neither did omara
he asked her and there was a link on her page
Right. Too bad Bernie couldn’t re-re-direct her on that, because he doesn’t know how FB works, or what the difference is between “signing” vs. “liking” an e-petition. But I bet at least one of the jurors will know, and can explain it to the others (oldsters, like me)!
Nothing wrong with that! A guy was about to get away with murder in her own back yard!
Big deal. Her role isn’t to be impartial. She’s a state’s witness and she’s entitled to her opinion on whether prosecution should occur.
That’s perfectly FINE. She saw and heard what happened and she knew the killer should have been arrested. SHE IS NOT A JUROR AND DOES NOT HAVE TO BE WITHOUT AN OPINION.
Why is Mom limping?
i would guess from the many shots west and he have misfired onto their own feet?
She held firm that she saw them standing.
Go BDLR!!!
I agree.
I think the State put Selene up first because they know she is one of the more vulnerable witnesses. I’m expecting W18 to be rock solid.
Go Bernie.
Bernie!
Oh go Bernie. 😉
Good Bernie! Good!
Now tie it together. Tell the jury that when she made this statement, she didn’t know that Zimmerman was saying he was attacked at the “T”.
Mr West did not ask laughing my ass off
If she was a lying stealth witness for Trayvon she could of added more damaging info! Omara is badgering her period! Del le ronda needs to clean this up and hopefully ask was she ever asked what directions the movements were coming from
HIs doing it!
He did it! Even MOM and Skeletor never asked her! 😆
There’s no such thing as a stealth witness. Witnesses are allowed to be pro-prosecution or pro-defense. Jurors are not.
Which is why it was idiotic for O’Mara to argue that the HOA settlement money would make the Fulton-Martins “biased.” They’re allowed to be biased; they’re against murdering their son.
Bernie is coming out strong!!! YES! He will fix this fuckery!!!
MOM and now the murderer is getting cocky!
I like the lack of objections there letting o mara have enough rope as they have plenty aces up there sleeve I m o.
Please be good rebuttal!
I hope the jury is seeing the look of pure hatred that the Fogdiot is showing toward this witness!
crazy1946~ gz hates everybody, except that one chick (who has the hots for him) that said a few nice things about him.
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At the end of the day, I still think she is a strong witness for the state. She has no reason to lie. And she is entitled to have an opinion about the events that happened in her back yard!
Not flailing in fighting flailing as in running fast pace She said.
I wish she would have elaborated more on why the opportunity never presented itself for her to “Like” the GZ page. Sometimes FB suggests things that you may “Like”. Was the GZ page even presented to her?
I wish she would have said- based on what I saw I do in fact hope for justice for Trayvon!
@chi1224.
BAM!
She’s not a judge and she’s not a juror. She doesn’t have to be impartial. She has to tell what she remembers. If what she remembers makes her believe that fogen killed an innocent kid in her backyard, NATURALLY she would “LIKE” justice for the kid.
Let’s look at the idea that witnesses who tell stories that contradict Fogen’s stories are motivated by some unexplained (except by speculation about racism) desire to hurt Fogen. They do not have any real motivation to lie about what THEY saw and heard that night. On the other hand, Fogen? Does HE have any real motivation to ie about what he saw and heard and did that night?
Duh …
Which party would be more likely to be non-credible: a witness who never knew Trayvon and never knew much about Fogen until after she witnessed a killing? Or Fogen, who would go to prison if his story was not believed?
Bernie should have this on redirect
The police didn’t care about finding witnesses. They were perfectly content to take Fogen’s word for it.
Defence are terrified of foggagges attacking Trayvon from Brandi Greens side.
What foggaggedid he blames on the KID.
He was the one whom circled Trayvon an came at him from the back entrance.
As that’s where he was lurking to ambush him.
Then he hears Trayvon an realises he is still on th dogwalk
Gets rid off the dispatcher an goes to catch an detain the suspect.
Yes. I believe that too. It was Fogen who circled around to the back gate while Trayvon probably dawdled on the phone. Then he confronted Trayvon and chased him toward the T.
Marinade Dave put up a video showing this a while back.
I don’t think I have ever clicked a “like” on any Justice4Trayvon support page. And God is my witness that I support justice for him.
SG2~ I signed the Change.Org page but that’s about it. I have never clicked on FB for Trayvon.
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I’ve clicked like on just about anything that exists in support of Trayvon and signed several petitions, and have worked steadily in support after considering all the released discovery and realizing that Fogen’s story DOES NOT ADD UP.
Two Sides~ That is highly commendable. I’m not a FB person, don’t tweet or do much but read here. The petition was sent to my email and I signed it. I have a FB page but it’s not updated with great frequency.
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I would rather run naked thru the town square than open a face book account and give the WHOLE WORLD access to all my personal information! We see here today a valid reason for my thoughts about face book!!!
crazy1946~ actually your FB page has ONLY the amount of info you put on it. I don’t have an actual picture of myself (I use another cat avatar); no current residence nor even where I work. The MOST you will get is where I grew up and the name of my high school. People are stupid if they think that one’s party pictures or ANYTHING stupid one posts are “private”.
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Cielo62, I wish that what you assume was true, but if you will dig you will find that there is much more information about you available on Face Book than you would ever imagine! They like Google have their hands in your pocket and I don’t think it is your spare change they are feeling for! We as a society opened the door for a massive invasion of privacy and I suppose we deserve what we receive in return!
Crazy~ I suppose they COULD follow my IP address. But I don’t see where they have any access to my banking information as the entity FB. I don’t purchase anything through them OR Google.
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FB themselves do not attempt to access your banking information, but it has be shown to be a hot bed for Trojans and Virus’s that will access your accounts.. However this is not the place or time to get too heavy into that. Perhaps after this trial is over we can have a more in depth discussion on this topic. Have a wonderful evening, I hope to be here in the morning, unless something happens to prevent my presence..
I’m pretty careful about not putting a lot of personal info on FB and also keeping it closed (well, LE can get into it with FB cooperation) but I did – and still do post comments about this case. Of course, if I lived in Seminole County, I’d then not make a good juror or witness.
I’ve clicked like & shared every piece of info from any site that supported Trayvon, I felt like they needed my support.
Go to 1:45 in LLMPapa’s video. Here sketch is there.
This video identifies witness 2, her sister, as being the one who saw movement. She says the movement was toward the T. Serino says “away from your house”. She says no, “toward the T”. They repeat this a couple of times. Serino can’t get his head around the idea of the running being further down the path. In the tape of witness 1, she doesn’t mention it a direction, but there are noises on the tape in a critical spot.
I just can not figure out why the state did not just focus on the fact that the was no fight on the ground! And why could she not find this info in the transcripts? Can she be recalled to the stand after listening to her recorded interview? Something is fishy about those transcripts.
Everyone, cancel your facebook accounts if you have one, this kind of sick intrusion is a complete violation of privacy. So fucking what if she has an opinion on FB?????? Doesn’t everbody?????
True.
The defense does not have a defense so they are going to attack everyone based on social media. If I were her, I would have told him that yes, I signed the petition because I know that they were not on the ground – they were standing!!! Nevermind the f’ing direction.
MOM has some real issues with people of color. Just the way he talks to them and his body language speaks volumes to his character. Attack attack attack, that is how they thing they are going to win this case. The jury of women will pick up on that and see the pattern.
When he asked Sean if the knocking could be GZ knocking on his flashlight, well MOM, thanks for confirming that A) It wasn’t dark because your client had a flashlight and B) He was still searching for Trayvon with the flashlight even after being told “We don’t need you to do that”.
The foolish man brought that to the juries attention by pointing it out since no one ever speculated on what that could have been during court. I sure hope they took note of that.
As for the lumps, I think that he smashed his head against the wall while in the bathroom when he went to clean himself up. Which is amazing in itself that they would allow him out of their sight after he kills someone.
They’re going to learn that they have to be careful when using internet sites as evidence. That’s because they can be hacked!
Just imagine if someone went and used a reverse look up and found her name in an online directory using her address? They could then find her facebook page and hack that petition onto it.
If I recall, very early on in this case, on bcc:list.com, people there had managed to figure out what names belonged to what witness numbers. So it wasn’t any secret. That list is still up and I believe Tchoupi’s work has a list of witnesses names and addresses in it. IIRC correctly.
Great so every witness can not want justice for a teen gunned down in their neighborhood.
So he dropped it. She liked a Justice for Trayvon Martin page on facebook, therefore she is a _____________________________.
A person that knows they were not on the ground when she looked out the door the 1st time and then 15 seconds later she saw a dead kid laying on the ground. Instead of the state focusing on the ‘left to right’ on re-direct, they should have made emphasis on the fact that THEY WERE NOT ON THE GROUND BUT WERE STANDING!!!! Nevermind the direction at this point!
She drew the arrow the wrong way on the sketch.
Oh, no!
You just looked at the sketch or just guessing ?
actually she drew the sketch mirror image. It’s clear whose houses she is referring to, and it’s likely she was not home when she drew it as well.
So no one interviewed her that night. Why? If three neighbors were all looking out and were aware of the others, why were police not directed to them?
good question.
Oh noes! She clicked one button on Facebook but not another!
@Ryan.
Didn’t you know? The Zimmerman’s dysfunction is that if you like Trayvon, you have to equally like GZ or you’re a racist. If Florida Supreme Court Rules say that Zim’s family who are witnesses cannot sit in the courtroom, the judge is suppose to violate that Rule because Trayvon’s parents are in the courtroom.
There must be some deep-seated problems with rejection in that family.
Xena, you hit the nail on the head!
Oh for the love of God.
OMG!!!!!!!!
Was there any reason why ?
Asks O Mara .
You gave a statement mmmmmm let me think oh yeh an innocent CHILD GOT MURDERED OUT BACK NEAR MY HOUSE.
Ah… the Facebook ‘like’.
What she saw was GZ on top of Trayvon. She described the body as wearing a red jacket.
Look at the bumbs on the Black guy in glasses behind o mara.
He also must have been assaulted by a side walk.
Staggering about, is he admitting his client was drunk?
I can’t begin to say how much I dislike O’Mara. Creep…just like his client.
She appears to be telling him the truth. Not coming off as a liar at all.
I agree
Me, too!
Imagine this sort of BS on wit8 DD AKA Rachel….
He will go there an then some an the all Female Jury will not have one iota of respect for the defence or there cretin of a client.
Exactly, and I wouldn’t count on an all white female jury not respecting the treatment of them. Remember, often in the court of law it feels like blacks need to first meet the bar of being human.
This witness is standing her ground.
Er, no. She just admitted that what she COULD have been Trayvon kneeling over GZ in the infamous MMA mount position.
what she saw
Well, MOM just fried W1.
Yep.
No, he didn’t. MOM showed the jury that he’s a bully and very, VERY worried about her south-to-north testimony!
MOM fried himself being disrespectful, condescending and a bully to this witness who has no MOTIVE to lie. Not very smart in front of 6 women jurors. MOM is a low-class JERK.
She NEVER said that! She wanted a TRIAL!!!
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She LIKED the petition but didn’t sign it. THAT is what she is saying. I do that sometimes, too.
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Groans~ exactly. NOW he’s insinuating that she wants to be famous.
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MOM is a PRICK and I do believe he is extremely unlikeable to most females who find his bullying of the witness ugly insinuating she is a liar and wants fame. This crpyt keeper lawyer is physically and mentally UGLY and unprincipled.
That witness should say Look! That kid was killed in my backyard. I heard them running and I saw what I saw. Did you want me living in a community when the man with the gun was still free?
Did you see how he rudely snatched that piece of paper out of Ms. Bahadoor’s hand? I can only imagine how the jurors must have taken reacted.
jm, right, no motive to lie.
The idiotic notion that every pBa-lack has a motive to lie to help hurt a white is infantile. This woman has no motive whatsoever to lie and she clearly is NOT lying.
My light bulb finally came on. The running toward the T meant that gz went around to cut Trayvon off from going home instead of being jumped at the T like he said. It blasts another one of his lies. Thats why mom was being such an asshole toward her. He was in desperation mode.
Mrs. X, exactly. MOM can’t have anyone say that the confrontation started anywhere other than the T area. If it is proven and believed that it started elsewhere then it proves Z lied again.
@ RobertSF, Give this lady a break. She was under pressure on that stand. Do you think that you would have done any better. Having being under pressure on the witness stand myself, I can identify with her. Believe me it is no fun. I think she did a very good job considering how MOM was grilling her and the whole world was watching. Honestly, don’t you think you would have been just a little nervous.
Damn, he got her to admit it was too dark….
She heard the direction and sound of the running, didn’t see it.
She had already said it was too dark.
Yes, she said that during direct.
I know some of you are concerned about this witness but I think she is doing GREAT! O’Mara looks the fool! He is the master manipulator, by trade, she is an innocent credible person!!
Yeah, he is being very manipulative now. He knows that she is vulnerable/nervous.
But why should she be nervous? She’s just there to say what she knows, and she knows what she knows. She’s not on trial. I’m really angry with her. She’s validating every damn stereotype southern whites have about blacks — unreliable, shifty, dumb, easily confused.
@ RobertSF – I disagree. Nervousness in this situation is normal, and I do not at all agree that she’s been any of those insulting words that you claim are “every damn stereotype.”
Makes me wonder if you’ve ever been cross-examined before. It’s not fun, because it typically is full of tricks and creating confusion – basically anything designed to make an adverse witness supposedly “look bad.”
Giver her a break. She’s doing great, and MOM is looking like an a$$hole. MOM also sounds TERRIFIED of her testimony, the way he cross-examined her.
Nobody can understand how a person feels the first time she is in court and stuff is hostile and unexpected and ridiculous. The theory that anybody pBa-lack is not credible is just a part of the racism inherent in the defense. She’ll get redeemed on redirect.
Don’t worry Miss Lady the creepy old man still going to prison.
HAH!
I can only wonder if Sereno actually asked her what direction the movement was traveling?
Exactly! And Bernie better ask this.
Or like someone suggested above, Serino might not have written it down. He wasn’t interested in any “complications” early on, like who was screaming, as I recall.
Here’s the answer! I love BDLR
She is still strong!
I agree!
Someone is going to get spanked. Hard.
MOM just got a spanking for not asking the court’s permission to show the witness some document! 🙂
I say we all go pelt this man with water balloons! Filled with dog shit!
Sorry to be crude.
O’Dirty is surely trying very hard to plant doubt in the minds of the jury.
Maybe the defense is extremely fearful of the south-to-north subject, because maybe they know that’s what really happened.
That’s the only reason I can imagine MOM would tear into this witness so hard.
…………………………………
Now he’ pitting sisters against each other and calling for heasay, and BERNIE TOOK FOREVER TO OBJECT!!!!!!
re Selene left-to-right movement: If she saw movement of multiple figures down the dogwalk, then flailing arms in the backyard of unit to the right of the unit directly across, the movement would have to be left-to-right.
Defense is apparently TERRIFIED of her testimony. Most interesting, indeed.
They are terrified because it shows that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon Martin.
Hearsay!
HLN will have a hard on for this tonight talking about how awesome MOM did destroying a key witness.
she told SERRINO but he didn’t believe her so didnt document it
This sounds very credible, especially since he told witnesses who they heard screaming.
I bet you’re right about that. We’ll need to listen to the taped interview again.
Where this is going, of course, is that these women are lying to frame Zimmerman because THEY’RE BLACK!
Exactly!
The prosecution either has realized or will realize that, as is being said, running in either direction is simply bad for gz and the defense team. All Omar has done is make this incredibly incriminating fact MEMORABLE for the jurors. I think this was Bernie’s intent.
Omar was left to challenge the direction of the running, but could not challenge the running at all. Bernie knows that no matter the direction, it’s terribly incriminating evidence! He will eventually be able to use it to lower the boom on the defense.
it’s got to be on the tape.
OMG! This looks bad.
I am exasperated by this witness. She started so strong, and suddenly she can’t remember anything.
gz will be the same or worse if he takes the stand. Remember all the times he told Serino he didn’t remember?
He won’t take the stand. The burden is on the prosecution and they didn’t prepare this witness well at all.
I think she is doing well considering the obvious bullying by O’Mara, most people hate a bully
She is being cowed and speaking in a non-native language; I hope the jury is aware of those dynamics. West is a bully.
Come on… she’s college educated with a degree in Information Technology. I do not excuse her.
Know you Bahadoors! Selene’s SISTER gave the earlier left to right statement, which she walked back from two figures to one figure maybe, and didn’t have her contacts in.
Ahhhh… I was wondering about that.
I think this woman is the sister of the woman who saw them running towards the “T”
She “mentioned” AKA TESTIFIED IN COURT TODAY cryptomara, now STFU!! It’s left to right, deal with it! Your client is a guilty POS!!
Is this the two shadow, then one shadow lady?
Clever girl… “running in the back”. Ok so what if they were running right to left MOM, that still would still put GZ past the T… HA HA HA
Exactly, not running in place! gmab! So f-ing what if the direction was today??? I hope the jury is appalled by this bullying!
And GZ never mentioned anything about any “running”… he was walking back to his car and sucker punched to the ground in the first interviews, and somehow “stumbled” down the T in the reenactment, but he never said anything about running.
Exactly, the running is important and she said that day one. Who runs in place??
Yeah, for MOM running must be like treading water.
Bernie took so long to object because, when your opponent is in a hole and he keeps digging, you let him keep digging. The point is gz never mentions any running, and it matters not which direction they ran. Either direction is incriminating!
Clever Bernie…!
She also did not see them on the ground!
In fact Fogen denies running by BOTH parties. He said Trayvon was NOT RUNNING [Hannity] and he said HE was not running OR following {only WALKING}. His version has no running by either party. Ambushing, cussing, sucker-punching, mounting, punching, slamming and smothering. NO RUNNING.
MOM is such a pompous ass. I can not stand him. And yes, if she is 3rd from the end and she heard movement, it was past the T. What a butthole!
As gbrbsb has noted, MOM hasn’t a well thought out alternative theory of what happened. He will need to devise one and do so really quickly.
While the witness says “running” it matters not which direction they were running, because either direction is bad for gz, who was not supposed to be in that area at all, according to his claims.
gbrbsb notes: [paraphrased] If they were running from right to left, the chase is going towards where Trayvon was living. Trayvon would hardly be chasing a grown man, and adult who believed he was a criminal of some kind, “up to no good”. Rather it would be Trayvon fleeing gz, with gz in hot pursuit of him. Not a good thing for a vigilante armed with a gun.
While, on the other hand, if they were moving from left to right, then gz is coming from an area further south of the ‘T’ to where the body is found, also not a good thing for an armed vigilante, since this is what gz would be, if he followed or chased Trayvon at all.
Anyway here’s the LLMPapa video of “Evidence of Direction”, which addresses this issue
She is so beautiful and poised…..under these terrible conditions.
Just check the transcript of W1 with Serino. She indeed said “they were running in the back”
EXACTLY
She could not see because she had just taken out her contacts… I have never liked this witness… She was always a weak and unnecessary witness IMO…
Exactly, unless it was sister of the woman who saw them running towards the “T”
Unless the female jurors are dumb as rocks they have to wonder why this witness would LIE and resent MOM for insinuating she is lying.
Absolutely don’t ditch her please. She is doing as best she can. She is clearly extremely nervous. WTF if GZ was running left to right or right to left, in her interview with Serino she said “they were running in the back” and running either way GZ never said Trayvon was chasing him and even if they were running right to left GZ would still be well past the T.
@gbrbsb- BOOM! Exactly!
I remember hearing the words “TOWARDS the ‘T’!
He is trying to paint her as a black woman trying to get GZ. This is B.S.
Did they not prepare her for this kind of aggression.
I think she is holding her own very well. The jury will not like this bullying! I think she is coming off very credible!
I don’t think the jury will like that.
My goodness, all she needs to say is that no one asked her which direction the running was going in. Sheesh!
Oh now I remember this is one of the wittneses Serino blew of an kinnda disregarded what she said
Because it wasn’t on script.
Like when he told retired School Mam that the screamer survived ect.
Have been in and out today and have not read up thread, but what I’ve seen seems that Defense is trying say “evidence” tampering, “witness” tampering, agreeing to admit calls and then objecting to influence jury negatively about them — every trick in the book.
I remember someone hearing left to right.
Bernie better do right on re-direct.
This is BS. Trial questions and depo questions and statements are not identical scripts. SO WHAT if today was the first left to right. Deal with it cryptomara!!
She didn’t mention right to left either.
I am sure this witness testified to movement from left to right back in 2012! Its on tape! And if she did not tell you, its because you did not ask.
Me too. Although, I have to wonder if it was her sister.
Exactly. Is there some unwritten rule that every last detail of a future testimony MUST be asked before trial?? I don’t think so!
I was so sure she said south to north, too. Do you suppose we’re confusing her with her sister?
so am I because I know of it
Now that Omar has dug himself into a deep hole, Bernie can either bring her back and show her the documents, or use another witness to shore her up. Either way gz is toast and Omar made the issue memorable, despite the fact that running in either direction is incriminating for his client.
I remember her saying that… Because it was all a blurr because she had just finished reading on the balcony and had removed her contact lenses.
She didn’t say she SAW them go left to right. She said she HEARD it.
And they asked where the arms were flailing. And she drew them south of the “T”
m o m an a magic glass of water doesn’t know how it got filled up
The words who gives a flying duck springs to mind.
Bernie needs to protect her better than that
O’Mara wants to get her to say she didn’t really hear a chase and is only parroting what her sister told her.
Is Selena Witness 1?
If so….
AWESOME!! see! why didn’t Bernie remember??
(see LLMPapa’s correct witness video below)
Anyone have a link to her statement / transcript where she said left to right? And what if she has suddenly remembered this because of something else that jogged her memory ?
ok, where is the state with the statement she gave that backs up her statement…I recall one of her statements where she specifically said what direction she heard running
They’ll redirect.
I expect Bernie to clean this up on redirect
Why doesn’t MOM just show the statements, run the tapes and then ask her why, if she did, change anything.
Because she didn’t change anything and he knows that and he’s a sleazy creepy.
Maybe Crump coached her? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
Women Jurours will hate M O dyM for bullying this Lady.
Bet they’ve all met men whom consider them inferior because of there gender.
He is condescending rude an chauvinistic.
Must have been a while ago because I heard the left to right chase from a wittnes almost a year ago.
Don’t know if it was her.
Anyone else remember?
I do
Agreed … and yes, I heard ‘”left to right” but can’t be sure it was her statement.
End of day. Jurors are tired. If she says left to right here in court this very day, that’s what she means. Who cares whether Serino asked the right questions a year ago?
Yep, we’ve had it for quite some time. LLMPapa uses the evidence file to base his vids on. It’s in his video titled “Evidence of Direction” I’ve got it on my evidence pile here Start the video then click on the lower right corner where it says “view on youtube”. That will take you to the youtube video (which is the same).
And people wonder why neighbors do not get involved. What a creep.
I was going to say the exact same thing!
Woman just tell them that you saw them running towards the “T”?! SHe said it?! The interview is on the web. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON???!!!
Sorry about that last link, but yes, it’s been on the web for quite some time, LLMPapa has it in his “Evidence of direction” video, which I have here on my evidence pile “Who were those people or did witness 11 Lie?”
holy shit why is she being rattled
I have known about he testimony for almost a year
He is being mean to her in a court. A court is a scary place to be if you don’t work there. He is trying to hide his hostility, but its apparent. After all, she has to be for the prosecution because shes Black. I think the jury is going to sympathize with her. He must know that.
She needs to chill out
if you don’t remember just say you don’t remember
just came back. I don’t understand. Is the witness being hostile?
Hey, don’t the allow the witness to read her own statements or transcripts from interviews after 15 months in the US. In the UK we allow witnesses to read/listen to their statements as a witness cannot be expected to remember exactly what they said in each interview or to each interviewer.
“Reading the notes to refresh my independent recollection” it’s called here.
Why doesn’t she just answer that she said this in the initial interview.
Hes trying really hard to impeach her testimony. Why? Did she say something inflamatory?
MOM is trying to impeach the witness because she is burying his client and essentially making his story a lie. What I don’t get is his punk attitude and also what reason would this witness have to lie?
She clearly hears the running TOWARDS the T.
________________________________
don’t worry her testimony is legit
it’s documented and Bernie is gonna toast them on redirect
O’Mara is trying physical intimidation this time and looking nasty.
He has a morbid scary looking crypt keeper face!
I wish this lady could MOM to GFHS
Who remembers everything they said in a 12 page statement?
Folks, we have to be patient. I know its hard, but its what is necessary in order for the state to factually, thoroughly & fairly represent their case for a rock solid without reasonable doubt conviction. We are going to win some & lose some, its part of the process. The state is very organized, going from start to finish. I believe they aren’t objecting a lot cause they are picking their battles methodically & strategically. No mention of whose gun & other specifics surrounding it yet because we haven’t gotten there yet. Hang in there folks, its only day 2.
If they object over and over they make themselves look evasive and weak, to the jury. If their response is, “yeah, so?” they look much stronger and more straight-forward and unafraid.
Why is crypt keeper 1 bullying this witness?
The Wiester is being down right hostile towards her. She is such a beautiful lady.
She is, beautiful big eyes, and she is coming off very classy, smart and truthful to me. She is not being put off by crypt keeper.
OMG those eyes are as big as extra jumbo boiled eggs! Wow!
I believe Selene Bahador did tell the policeover a year ago that she heard yelling going from left to right toward the T
She did!
Yep. I even remember reading that a while ago. Methinks somebody on the defense didn’t review witness statements and today seem ill-prepared.
She doesn’t remember what documents where the claim was recorded, but LLMPapa got it in his video of “Evidence of Direction” video. I’ve got it in my “did witness 11 lie” article on my evidence pile.
I hope they find it so he can stop badgering her. What is his purpose? She didnt say anything expressedly helpful to the prosecution, did she? If she did, it went over my head.
That was her sister. But at first I thought they misidentified w1 as w2. She does mention running feet at some time.
You may be confusing Selene with her sister. I believe is was Suzannah Bahadoor who told police she saw a figure running South to North.
What’s happening? Every time I step away and come back they are at the bench.
Hi people. I have been out all day and will read all of the comments posted but would like someone to tell me the best thing that happened today and the worst thing if you would be so kind.
It’s happening right now.
To quote the Professor, Officer Smith’s wife Diane — a Sanford PD CSI technician — buried the defense . She was likeable, believable, professional and refused to be lead.
Thers more blood vessels on your head that’s why scalp cuts bleed profusely.
Also ant lumps caused by injury but no broken skinn swell up like a BUGGER
If those lumps were caused by injury they would be more pronounced like when you get a mouse under your eyes because its a head iinjury
Although no broken skin blood rushes to area
those bumbs are natural.
Also notice that the lumps are not where you would expect from banging on the sidewalk. They are sides and top. And the lac is in the upper part of the back, but nowhere near the lumps.
My kid once bumped his head in the yard and got an actual walnut-sized lump in less than 30 seconds! I saw it getting big right before my eyes! I was frantic and called the doctor’s HELP line and the nurse laughed at me and said, “ice it and don’t worry.” And the bump was not that hard, either! He didn’t even cry, just went “OW!” The funniest part was when he said, “So what they do in the cartoons is TRUE!”
Bernie is objecting when it matters.
O’Mara is trying to suggest that the left to right information is new, and possibly implying it came from the state rep who went over her testimony with her.
Bernie is objecting to using a transcript from Serino’s interview, rather than the one she reviewed a few days ago.
MOM is certainly BADGERING the witness, that slimy POS.
________________________________
she 1000% said left to right in March 2012.
We have this witnesses interview on line. In her initial interview, she said the same thing.
I thought I remembered her saying the movement was south to north, too!
I can’t believe MO’M got so aggressive with the witness when she wasn’t being rude or anything to him.
A lot of the witnesses did not give more details in their first interviews that night. ‘left to right’ was probably never asked, she was upset clearly, as were other neighbors, natural to get more Q and A answers later in interview, I’d think, as investigation unfolds.
Plus, isn’t this the run who used the term of them running TOWARDS the “T”?
Very true. Especially when it seems SPD wanted this incident to go away. I can’t imagine that they would have delved deeply into the matter initially when they did not want to press charges.
We’ve known about south-to-north for ages. She DID say so at the first interview.
Heaven knows why the defence didn’t know about it.
Remember the re-enactment. Tiger-paw swipes, “I think I was trying to push him off me.” He wasn’t ON you at that point (even by your own description), you wuss. So you were standing and HE was standing so why not just draw your gun?
Oh, you say you forgot you had it on you, oh yeah… oh yeah… you have a bad memory from ADHD or something, right?
So then let me ask this NW a little something.
If you want a captain to help protect the neighborhood, why choose someone who (a) can’t remember the streets in the neighborhood; and (b) can’t remember where he put his cell phone; and (c) can’t remember that he’s carrying a loaded (in fact overloaded) gun; and (d) can’t remember if a real suspicious guy said “homie” or not?
@Malish- but wait…he contradicts his own statements. First it was he punched him in the nose, knocked to ground and mounted immediately. Reenactment shows him “paw swatting”, claiming he stumbled some 30+ feet, then he somehow got on top of him. Lord help this man!
MOM trying to get away with tripping up the witness by reading off of a bullshit transcript?
Do any of you remember if she told the direction OR if they even asked since they believed Fogen to begin with?
she did, I recall her saying left to right in march 2012. She has a memorable voice.
Me too! Maybe it was her sister?
RUNNING TOWARDS THE T not away from the T..
He is being the nastiest towards her. You can tell by his tone that he is is trying to discredit her and call her a liar.
MOM is being a punk to this witness. Not very smart showing disrespect to this female witness being there are 6 female jurors.
I believe it is safe to say that JN and the defense do not have the best courtroom rapport.
I’m not needing a comment, I’m just needing you to show it to counsel.
What is he trying to pull. Her initial interview she said the same thing. You can tell he his pissed.
Watch it, MOM. She’s not gonna fall for your trickies!
Is this transcript in evidence?
Keeper of the crypt #1 is trying to rattle this witness, it’s not working
Curious, didn’t O’Moron/West depose this witness? Did they not know she was going to destroy the whole fogen narrative and W6’s BS story. So, West still throws the MMA stuff in about punched, dropped, mounted – MMA style?
even funnier
he is attacking only one part of her story
many parts of it impeach the killer
MOM seems utterly baffled that the witnesses didn’t give the answers he’s expecting.
MOM doesn’t remember the diagram from many months ago??
MOM is showing a bit of agression withher.
MOM is trying to intimidate this witness. She’s pretty self-assured and isn’t buying MOM’s attitude. He is also condescending. MOM is a first-class JERK and a very bad attorney.
Yeah, shows West isn’t the only one to do the dirty work.
Omara’s trying to discredit the witness.
LOL! “I don’t need a comment just the transcript.” JN
________________________________
Selena knew gz as a nw person, he handed out fliers about NW, she knew him as neighborhood watch person.
Bernie deconstructing West’s narative
she’s breathin hard as they show the pictures of the crime scene
*hang in there baby, give this young man justice, you are the embodiment of Ma’at today *
Ma’at indeed.
The movement was going toward the T.
TOWARDS the “T”
Just keep the faith. Just as 137 years ago today, all the indians camped at the Bighorn River came down and annilated Custer. Have faith, at the end of this trial, all 6 ladies of the Jury will ride down and convict GZ. Interesting note of history, GZ’s trial began on the same day Custer left out to chase a few indians who had wandered off the reservation. The next day Custer had his last stand. Hopefully, and I think it will, this will be GZ’s last stand.
Saline an I T anylist works in a hospital.
Bachelors degree an she lived in 2841 retreat veive circle,
She was at home with sister neice an a friend
Her backyard leads onto the dog track
At 7 10 sunday evening on 26th
She was at the back in the kitchen
Her sister upstairs neice an friend in front of home,
Say reain was intermittent an drizzleing
Heard commotion at the dog track
Heard a NO no an running from left to right
She couldn’t tell whom or what was running,
The running was past her home towards the T intersection
Opposite direction as to what foggagge claims
When she looked out she saw two individual arms flailing standing upright.
Due to darkness couldn’t identify figures,
Time to arrive at slideing doors from kitchen 15 seconds.
Noise continued.
Couldn’t hear specific words.
Heard NO again an watched for about 20 seconds,
Turned stove of an returned to back slideing door again.
They were on the pathway erect an arms flailing still.
Then she saw someone laying on the grass also noticed two other neighbours watching an one came out on the porch a man said…….Whats g oing on twice then went back inside.
The fighting individual were then once again erect an standing.
She then observed a prone body face down on the grass,
She heard the shot seconds earyier,
After seeing the prone body she told her Sister someones been shot.
She never ventured outside.
There it is. Contradicts W6. She only ever saw ONE on the ground and W6 was outside while she was watching the standing flailing. Wow.
Fogen is SO done, and his little lying henchman W6, too. I hope W6 has seen this and knows the jig is up. Turn state’s evidence dude, ask for immunity from perjury!
GZ is looking as concerned as the medication will allow. Wonder if or how witness 6 will contradict her.
Just wow!
So much for the sucker punch sh!t story.
Wow–this is really powerful, blowing Z’s story up. It sounds like she saw two people standing, arms flailing–left to turn off the stove, heard the shot and returned to a body face down in the grass.
I will repeat this question again: is “lump” necessarily the same as injury or the result thereof. I do NOT remember GZ’s own physician mention any lumps as injury. Is West lying again?
might just be he has a lumpy ass head
The should shave his head to see if that’s just how his head looks.
Lumps on head don’t confirm or deny anything but the fact that West said it does NOT mean that (a) it is true or ever was true; or (b) that it came from any admissible statements or anywhere else in particular. He says whatever he wants to say, knowing he will get away with it. Will it work, however? AHA. NO is the short answer. And the long answer is: Not in a nother hundred universes and certainly not in this one.
I would think his whole head would have been swollen. Lumps on the sides of the head don’t equate to banging the back of his head on the sidewalk.
They should, cause my husband shaves his head, and he just showed me where there are lumps on his head.
Soul catcher- there used to be a pseudo science called phrenology that read and interpreted the bumps and lumps on one’s head. We all have them.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Am I getting this right? They were still standing when John was looking outside.
Yes!
OMG!
Let the mountains tremble!!!!!
Ooohhh, she’s gonna impeach W6!!!
Looks like it!
Shit Bernie, establish where the figures were she saw them standing there.
‘where they were when she saw them’, not as in sidewalk or grass, but as in in front of which back door.
seriously
lock this shit down!!!!
gattdamnit
Hopefully this jury remembers Fogen did not say that in the rear of the buildings a foot chase happened. Punch, fall down go boom, head smashed, more punching, smother, screaming and reaching for gun BUT NO foot chase. He’s done.
No standing fight either.
Ooo. Fogen is blinking hard – shutting this testimony out. Doesn’t want to hear it.
Bless her!!! They were STANDING!
Two figures STANDING with arms flailing. Too dark to ID persons.
Figures and arms flailing.
Did noise continue? …. it continued … couldn’t make out words.
I heard what sounded like “noooo”
OK–here is is. Bernie’s asking the questions and she says that she heard running, possibly the word “no” and the movement was going left to right (or south to north).
Boom. Fogen likely chased Trayvon toward the T, not away from it.
I have always speculated that GZ places himself on RVC (walking through the cut through past the T) in case anyone saw him there. Instead of walking back towards his truck as he claims, I believe he south down RVC, cut through the buildings towards the dog walk, and cut off Trayvon’s path to Brandy’s house. This would support her testimony of south to north movement back towards the T.
I always felt like he took a shortcut too to cut off Trayvon’s path and appeared in front of Trayvon when Trayvon asked him why are you following me?
Yes because he said “the guy” was running “towards the back entrance” and so he’d go there to head him off and prevent him from getting OUT of the neighborhood. South to North.
@Mojo,
”Re: “Instead of walking back towards his truck as he claims, I believe he south down RVC, cut through the buildings towards the dog walk, and cut off Trayvon’s path to Brandy’s house. This would support her testimony of south to north movement back towards the T.”
Yes. PRECISELY!
Puts the directional path South to North?
Yep it does.
C’mon BDLR show us some pictures of the house and where it is
Wow bet that scared the friend that was visiting.
Next Witness, Selene Bahadoor, works for a hospital as IT analyst, since 2004, not married, no kids, lives in S county Fl, 9 years.
Grew up PA, college, Temple University, B in health info mgmt.
Feb 2841 RTVCircle lived there 4 years.
OH!!
Selene, her niece and her (niece’s) friend, and her (Selene’s) sister with her on Feb 26th evening.
Screened in porch with door. Around 7-7:10 that evening, she was downstairs in rear in kitchen. LR also goes out to back slideing door area.
Niece and friend were in niece’s room, facing front of home (street TTL)
Was raining– “it was intermittant”, around 7 it was likely still raining.
Noise heard outside, in rear.
Sounded like “No, or “oohhh”
(grunt groan like discription)
Sounds back left to right– towards the ‘T’. Looked out window, couldn’t see, dark. Moved from kitchen to sliding glass doors, means she moved to the right of her residence.
She saw figures, more than one, and says ‘flayling’, looked like arms moving, looked like 2 indivs. Standing position.
View that you could id indivs involved? “No,… too dark”
Est how long it took to move from kitchen to sliding glass door, if you can…. “maybe abt 15 seconds”.
Did noise continue during that time, “continued” from what she could remember.
At sliding door, noise was going on still. “I heard what sounded like “No”.
How long did you stay there looking outside at what was going on, 15-2- secs, after looking, she went back to stove to turn it off.
She has no clothing or faces descriptions from that time, unable to see faces. “When I saw them they looked like they were on the pathway”.
Once turned off stove, she looked out and saw someone laying in grass. See anyone else? two other people looking out…. where were they positioned? One across from her home, the other next to the come across from mine, that person came out on porch. “I didn’t see them do anything”
Did you hear them say anything? What I rmr him saying, what is going on….. (twice) do you want me to call the cops (said twice).
Did the two indivs, she just remembers them standing. She saw them standing, heard the neighbor, then went to turn the stove off…. est less than 15 seconds, she didn’t know what was happened, and went back to door right away and looked out.
Second time looking out– just a body in the grass. Face up or face down, rmrs it being face down. Saw nobody else at that time out there.
Hear a shot? When she went to take the stove off, shot occurred.
After shot and went to door again, and saw body, what did you do?
Took the dog and went upstairs and spoke to her sister, said someone shot she thought.
Went back down, now flashlights (police) outside.
Did you go outside ever tat night? ‘No’.
(now shows her photos
(direct by Bernie)
Is this BDLR’s first examination?
Yep! The legend has arrived.
Well, bless her heart.
Good job, sister.
I hope she gets flowers and champaign.
Hey Bernie! (smooches)
Selene is W1 or W2. They are sisters and I keep getting them mixed up.
All right. The master, BDLR!
Speaking of blook on sidewalks in the area– the ‘orange’ spots on FDLE photos, seems PShopped in the album, two paint like or PH brush like areas).
I found out what they are, or likely relate to– the south TOTAL STN, which is diagramed in evidence as to the same house number area. Nothing suspicious, nothing unusual.
Now we know why Fogen grew hair out.
Yep, no more wannabe’ tough guy cop look, and it worked well, to show bandaids stuck on it, couldn’t do that with head of hair.
How long will this trial take? 3 months! lol! They’ll have to compensate the jurors. MOM probably wants them off , mistrial by jurors dropping out due to boredom and waste of time
this is foolishness How many people have lumps and bumps on their heads NATURALLY not caused by any kind of external violence? If anybody shaves their head, their head is unlikely to be one smooth round ball, right? I hope the defense realizes that.
I have a lumpy head!
Fogen’s jury consultant pal can’t help him now 🙂
Those lumps could just be his scull shape.
yep, need to hear from his physician (he should bring that in his defense) and he should get a head shave, IF he knows that’s true).
he’ll get the head shave and de-lousing treatment when he hits the pen
Question comes to mind, wonder whether the state has any photos of GZ in the weeks and months ahead of the killing. IE: when did he get his ‘marines’ cut? (witnesses from work might know)
Interesting to note if this was an abrupt change that related to anything in the past 6 months or the assignment of NW. Or any of the last 6 months of calls to police about young black males.
could go to how his view of how he would be viewed by others, less soft maybe, more authoritative. More cop like, more buggy Mark-like)
Could he not have gotten those lumps at the gym, practicing his fighting skills?
________________________________
Why did GZ change his clothes?
I’m just curious.
He looks like he has the same suit on that he had on this morning.
Same suit.
Body odour sweat ect
Or if he had strpes may have caused strobbin g on tv.
This is as much about show biz as justice I m o.
K, nevermind, thanks
shave the fools head an them lumps will still be thre.
No ones skull is perfectly aligned an smooth.
In fact theres a scam like palm reading were people can read the bumps on your scull
To tell your fortune.or future.
I’d be happy to put on my turban
And tell you his future.
Wait … wait …. I foresee it’s coming to you now!
Exactly Colin. Can the Judge order his head shaved to see if he still has lumps? Please.
Just run your hand or fingers over your scalp an you will feel lumps an bumps.
Hell just look at W head
Is “lump” necessarily an injury or the result thereof?
The “lumps” on his head are merely skull irregularities, everyone knows that skulls are not regular. So West is just telling yet another false story and the jurors already know to discount and ignore what he says when it can’t be substantiated by medical reports etc..
Okay we need a doctor to testify as to how those lumps were sustained… self inflicted
Please tell me the relevance of ME stating she saw lumps on gz’s head.
That he has injuries, therefore that he acted in self-defense, according to the defense POV.
Two Sides~ Well, we saw the lumps. BUT they weren’t red or bruising, bleeding or scraped open at all. They COULD be natural head shape.
________________________________
Angela Corey’s not looking happy now with the injury id.
I think she looks like she is struggling not to fall asleep.
gbrbsb:
Look at the bridge of GZ’s nose in the Wagner pic on the left, and on the right from one of the photos from the SPD four hours later.
Realize that the nose bridge is solid bone, the left and right maxilla on the side and the nasal bone on the top. Until some medical professional tells me that these bones can be caved in severely, and return to normal only hours later, I shall believe the Wagner photo has been falsified.
Notice how far from his nose the birth mark moved. I understand the angle of the camera, but there is no possibility this is a genuine picture.
It’s not a birth mark. It’s his small nose wound. And it hasn’t moved, the side of his nose has moved.
LUMP? Shave his head and see if that lump is still there?
I wonder that too.
GZ’s head looks kind of lumpy now. I would love to hear from a physician as to how those lumps could have been caused.
Wich pics West the fake photo shoped inadmissible ones?
By ascertaining that Diana Smith is not a police officer and declaring that he would call her Ms., West attempted to delegitimize her and undermine her credibility.
Yes.
And JN called her “Technician Smith” as she excused her. She saw right through West’s tactic.
omg did fogen change clothes
LOL, maybe he shit his pants.
Found unknown touch D N A on tape round Caylees scull after months in a swamp.
I like her “or add to it” when West tried to trip her up! LOL
I like how Angela Corey looks – she likes that the tech isn’t falling for West’s subterfuge.
He’s going for Ofc. Smith’s handling of the gun?
D. Smith will be the last witness today. Believe you me. West will grill her for the rest of the evening – repeating questions, etc.
Ahhh West is going to try to say she wiped off Trayvon’s fingerprints on the gun.
Boy Id love to spike some of foggagges water with some.
California sunshine acid from back in the day,
When it was pure an strong .
Just as he was due to take the stand .
I would pay to watch that.
Be a waste on West as he seems to be tripping anyway…
Did he just say ‘flashlight was on?” and she answered that is right?
So he snuck this in….. presumes someone must have turned the keyring flashlight off at some point. IE: somene handled it in between her observation in situ and her swabbing.
Jean Casaras of HLN in the background behing west’s l shoulder.
West waste so much time fumbling.
Oh… lighter, MOM might try to say that was what Trayvon picked up from the floor? Maybe dropped out of his pocket when he went back after digging around in pocket for his purchase coins and bills. (he could have dropped a paper money bill too, but if MOM goes the ‘lighter route, he could then go into smoking, and bring in photos, and such things)
Bring it in how? The medical examiner concluded that he hadn’t indulged that day. If he did, it would suggest that he was impaired from fighting. If he did, which the coroner says he didn’t, does that mean he deserves to die?
how could West not know or remember if the pants have been entered?
Cause his are on fire, he’s such a liar?
OH damn LOLOLOL
Just too funny. So that explains why he drinks so much water!
cant remember a lighter?
cigarette lighter , I believe, if I’m not mistaken. pocket-size.
Yes, a red one. Disposable.
________________________________
711 store branded.
To be expected in pocket of someone who has the occasional smoke.
It looks like West has heard the theory about GZ dropping the torch at the T after the shooting.
He couldn’t have done it without reading blogs, or his interns finding that suggestion. LOL!
It’s even worse than that, one of the other, I think DMan, appears to have a direct line to contact MOM & Co because I’ve read comments either telling whoever it is to ask something of them and others about his having communicated with them.
West better watch it. Insensitive questioning about Trayvon’s body is going to piss off jurors.
lighter?
Yeah … that came up earlier, too, with bagged exhibits. (I carry a lighter from for candles)
Fogen is falling asleep
I don’t know what his deal is
About 60 diazipan / valium blue ones
Yellow 5 millgrams blue ten milligrams
So his deal would be a shitload a week both over countr under the counter an on the street.
Prolly got everyone in his family doctor shopping to keep his supply high
An his emotions dulled to match his brain
And one hit of PAISLEY LSD…..
Does mom own any other ties than paisley?
He looks like hes on drugs or something. Yeah, hes up to no good.
He’s just starring at me.
P.S. He really is 😉
Sleuth- 🙂 Get a Turkish Evil Eye Medallion. It’s said to ward off the “evil eye”.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
What is the point that West is trying to make by continually referring to Ofcr Smith as her husband?
somehow wrong doing, motive to cover up for officers, conflict of interest etc.
If west can’t get her on the flashlight-keyring ‘on’. (why would someone turn the flashlight ‘on’, maybe ‘off’ but not ‘on’.
Couple hrs passed, so he could later go into batteriess would have died. (maybe switch position will come up later)
West changes topic and does not question her about key-flash any longer, now to blood id on scene, chemicals.
It appears as though the defense case, so far, is:
1. The rain washed away the DNA on Trayvon, but not on fogen.
2. The ME is incompetent.
3. The tech lab had tainted evidence (mold) so the evidence does not support the prosecution, but absolutely supports the defense.
4. HOA is partially responsible for praising people who follow at a distance.
5. Dorival is partially responsible because she told fogen to call suspicion on people walking in the rain.
7. The crime scene tech is lying about the evidence, which may have been tampered with – because she doesn’t want to get “her husband” in trouble.
In other words – not a damn thing.
Yet somehow, despite all this alleged blame to spread around, Trayvon is still dead … by Fogen’s scummy hand.
Yep, I’d say that pretty much sums it up. Anybody’s fault but his client.
In the opening statements the defense lost the ability to make complex explanations of the evidence.
He’s such an ass. Is he really going to imply that her husband was first on the scene, so *maybe* she has a reason to lie?
West is not going to trip her up
he should not even try
I must be dim as I don’t see what he’s trying to get at here.
gbrbsb~ maybe painting Ms. Smith as incompetent or less than thorough.
________________________________
Yes… and in cahoots with hubby he appears at times to be trying to infer !
Ms. Smith is a good witness. She answers directly, to the point, nothing extra. Brain engaged before mouth! Not susceptible to being baited.
Object to that damn “right away”, damnit!
Honda key with the little flashlight, said that was ‘on’, did you witness or told that? She witnessed it.
But West just used the term ‘you had hands on’ at the scene, now he goes into this idea that maybe someone tampered with this flashlight.
The defense needs to cast doubt that this was ‘off’ after the ‘drop’ but working.
shes going to get the blame for the flashlight being turned ‘off’. He going to suggest she is covering up for doing this?
Ummmm, I think MOM did that already when he asked Sean if the tapping noise during the NEN call could have been GZ tapping on a flashlight. Which means that he was still looking for Trayvon in the dark. What a fool!
Anyone get the feeling she is playing with West?
Toying may be more apt,
My feeling is she is pro-Trayvon. She (rightfully) referred to him as the VICTIM, and later called Fogen “Zimmerman”…. not “Mr” Zimmerman, just “Zimmerman”…
So in other words, a sane and compassionate human being.
Actually, it’s more like her police training but…
In her line of work, she probably sees more courtrooms than the average person. She’s use to it.
Where is West going with this??
Tampering with evidence? OMG
i cannot even stand to see west’s creepy, crepey hands touching trayvon’s personal belongings.
west does not even ask to approach the witness. gross and disrespectful to the witness and the court.
Having we entered a new era when witnesses are supposed to bring their own show and tell exhibits? Why doesn’t West have this measurement info if he think it’s so key ???
He did not prepare for trail because he had the expectation that his client would not get convicted because of all the fact that he and MOM told the media.
West is missplaceing things again
Bumbling and fumbling around again.
Porch time for me, sister, when West is up.
Okay, the window’s open, so I can still Listen. 🙂
When crypt keeper #2 gets up (West) I automatically know it’s going to be a rambling mess and my mind starts to wander just wishing he would make an actual point or STFU…. I wonder if anyone on the jury feels the same way?
Look for West to attempt to minimize the measurements with words like “only”, “just”, “limited”, “little”, etc.
Yep, that is why I am glad this witness refused to even estimate. West is a sneaky SOB
He tried it with Chad, even he did take the bait.
Ooops! meant to say, “..even he did not take the bait”
No. he wants to try to establish that the struggle started at the T based on the location of the keychain flashlight.
He needs to ask the appropriate person and she refuses to help him there. I love it.
You really shined their West ! Asking if she had ever patrolled with her hubby when she is not a police officer.
what
is
west
doing
?
sHE IS BEING COMBATIVE WITH SKELLATOR YEEEEHA.
west is going for the OJ defense: crime scene contamination or ineptitude. Hes such a schlamiel. Choke on your frequent sips of water, west. They are praying to get him off on a technicality.
Ms. X~ Yep. He’s trying to make the investigators seem inept or incompetent.
________________________________
OMG this is very funny. She’s flumoxxing West by refusing to be lead.
*flummoxing (sigh)
Loving it.
I hate it when west comes on. I hte being around people like him. Why say in 25 words what you can say in 25,000? He makes me sick.
If I were the prosecution, I would have a standing objection for relevance.
To West, a picture is worth……wait, where’s the picture……….(fumble, bumble & stumble looking for picture) In the real world he’s what we refer to as a “Dillweed”
I”m not a police officer, Smith tells West. Duh. This excellent witness is going to make him look like a greater dolt than usual.
Excuse me for my less than intelligent question. How is Mrs. Smith’s testimony burying the defense. Don’t get me wrong I love it, just how is she doing it. Lead me to water peeps! 😉
She isn’t there doing that themsels
Thank you Colin!
I think evidence was introduced that proves that what has been asserted about gz’s case, which is, he was in te fight of his life, his life was threatened and he was forced to kill in self defense, pattently false. The evidence shows very minor injuries which have been referred to as kitten scratches. This was not am epic struggle to save his life. Got it?
Mrs X yes and thank you! I thought I missed finger prints on something.
West to do cross on Smith.
Asks if she has been on patrol with her husband.
Doesn’t know she is a tecH as opposed to a regular officer DOH?
Is West trying to butter her up?
@SouthernGirl2 how do you record those videos?
I didn’t record them but I subscribe to this person’s channel and she records them.
Oh no, thirsty ass West is up!
what bothered me is how casually gz was able to look at Trayvon’s body. he must have seen the pics before with his lawyer so it’s not like he hasn’t seen them. i’m talking about when Guy first began showing them, (before he was told to not to stare so enthusiastically)
he really is evil. everyone else is visibly disturbed.
the jury is upset and even though they have to look at them they aren’t staring with enthusiasm.
but gz was actually staring as if they’re interesting.
sick in the head. he should be puking all over the place!
And don’t think that they didn’t notice that.
Actually he turned away quickly when they showed Trayvon’s face up close. I think he should be required to spend time in a cell with nothing but those photos.
I was at the MRI center and, they had the TV in the reception room on HLN and, I saw that. the big bloated goat makes my blood boil and, so does his defense team.
x2 infinity!
Why no mention of the gun being shellies?
Good question. Probably not relevant since gz was the one who used it for murder.
George Zimmerman Trial – Day 2 – Part 1
I have a small confession to make. With the trial about to start I took a spare laptop hooked up to the Internet via my cell phone account over to a lady friend that I have known for many years. I will tell you straight up that she is old time south and as racist as one could possibly be. I have had her listening to this trial for the last day and a half so far. I talked to her just a few moments ago, she asked me a question that caught me off guard, the question was “Why did this man not just plead guilty, and save the state a lot of money””? I think that even the other side, if honest will have to admit that by all that has been shown thus far the Fogdiot is guilty…. Let’s hope that the jury agrees…
LOL! Even racists don’t like to made into fools. Once the evidence started to be laid out, piece by piece, the honest racists will see the truth here and get angry. It won’t change their racism, but it WILL change their minds about the veracity of this defendant.
This lady not only is a racist, she lives in a different age. She knows (or knew) nothing of this case at all! Still knows very little other than what she has seen on the streaming video..
My mom is a pretty conservative lady in her 80s and formerly a mild racist. She says the same thing – why did Fogen not just plead guilty and make things easier on himself?
That was my point for over a year. Racist may be bigots but, you’re not going to make any friends with them, by telling them that 2 dollars change is all they get, for a 2 dollar purchase with a ten dollar bill.
Nobody likes to be made a fool of in public, racist or not!
Thanks for sharing that … I think that’s going to be typical response.
Great share, thanks. Folks are folks, after all, sometimes.
LOL The jury will see through all the BS and how the story as GZ told just could not make any sense. The bullying and lying will not work. Something about MOM, West and the killer makes it hard to listen to. look at and like.
George Zimmerman Trial – Day 2 – Part 1
Thanks!
GZ taking lot of notes last two days…me thinks him might be making “crib notes” to use in event he has to testify. Lol!
Feel like gettin’ my praise on right about now! Talkin’ bout God’s plan! Hallelujah! Thank you Lord!
I might join you Sleuth. 🙂
Sleuth, on second thought, I will join you when Trayvon, the Martins/.Fultons, Crump, Rev Al, Professor Leatherman, Crane, NAACP, and everyone else that has been smeared by Zimmerman’s family and sleazy lawyers are vindicated with the Truth. That’s when I’ll jump and shout for joy.
@GrannyStandingforTruth
Well, I’m just the type of person who praise Him for all things. I truly believe when the praises go up, the blessings come down. It’s praise that’s gotten me through many storms.
Remember, God has everybody’s DNA and fingerprints. I believe you when you say God is going to vindicate everyone on the list you posted, and some. 🙂
HLN is fulll of dung. They don’t want the public to see those pictures because it does not help Zimmerman.
@GrnnyStandingforTruth
I say, take the Fulton/Martin out of the courtroom, and PLAY THEM AGAIN, SAM!
So the confessed murderer will have to look at them again. I hope those pictures left a deep impression in his mind.
Deep impression on the jury is what matters.
Trayvon has been established as THE VICTIM.
After this it will be very hard to convince them he was a nasty vicious attacking thug.
By the time it comes to the “scream” tape, there’ll be no need for experts about who it was and what was happening.
sleuth — all those photos will be seen again…. and more. expect autopsy photos with graphic descriptions. also, expect replays of the defendant’s non-injuries to be replayed repeatedly and interpreted by appropriate medical experts. there should be no doubts by the end of it.
Faux McCoy/ we’ll see those photos again? I wish they’d give warning. They kicked me in the gut.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@fauxmccoy
I figured they’d be shown again. I really hate that Trayvon’s family has to go through all this again. I stopped after the first picture, just can’t do it right now.
I also imagine it was pretty hard for members of the jury to look at them, but they have to. I really feel bad for them too. Just think about the predicament they’re in.
You and I can discuss the case here, wherever and with whoever. They can’t even discuss it with the other jurors before deliberation.
Overall, I’m so pleased with how the State is handling this case. And kudos to all of the witnesses who gave testimony today.
Nice thread today, huh? (yes, meant with a very snarky tone) 😉
@fauxmccoy
Oh, I forgot to ask. Did you notice “The Robert Palmer Girls” in court today?
@cielo62
You squeemish? Nah? Your gut must be bothering you cause you didn’t give me my Texas doggy bag.
By the way, did you see “The Robert Palmer Girls” in court today? Heard a couple of them stopped by here yesterday which explains why I didn’t see them in court. Dang, they’re faster than fast……….but not faster than me. 😉
Can’t wait to see what Dear John has to say about all this.
Sleuth- yeah, thank goodness for Alka-Seltzer! No, I’m sure those Robert Plant girls were trolling and strolling all over the inner webs all day. You know we’re their Number One stop!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I don’t know how many of you are following Diane Smith’s testimony, but she just about buried the defense.
She was very meticulous. She actually LOOKED at each piece of evidence to verify it was the one SHE signed off on. That makes her very believable. Not a “yes” person casually tossing the evidence around.
Yes … very crisp and professional. Yet smiles at appropriate times … although not too much. Jurors surely will like her and believe her.
Yes she is. Just look at God’s plan.
yep.
i get it
Yes. She’s a pro.
The way Guy talks about latent prints on different items suggest to me that there me be another bombshell, e.g. GZ’s DNA on the skittles, soda can, etc. I am definitely staying tuned. This Guy is laying solid foundations for a full-fledged forensic onslaught on GZ. Go Sky-Hawks.
sidebar
Listening to Officer D. Smith, I keep having flashback of LLMPapa’s videos (I will speculate no further).
Yes!!
Maybe GZ’s DNA is on Trayvon’s watch.
If someone was sitting on top of you, wouldn’t you try to shift your weight, wiggle, squirm, kick to get them off? Might that struggle produce grass stains? If the hand was over your mouth, wouldn’t you try to retract your lips so you could bite them? Wouldn’t your hands be trying to scratch their eyes out, punch them in the throat or punch the heel of your palm or knuckles into their nose? If you had been training in martial arts, wouldn’t you know where to hit someone to disable them? Might all this have caused one or more of your contacts to dislodge? One thing is for sure. gz didn’t go through any of that. What a miscreant.
Definitely doing the shimmy in the grass would leave stains.
I can clearly remember when I played football how easily my uniform got grass stained….just a brush on the ground and green pants or jersey. Months ago we did a few tests such as trying to reenact the gunshot as Fogen said and specifically looked to see what staining happened.
Hint…….Fogen’s lying his ass off.
In self defense with martial arts he would have used every single weapon on his body such as hands, feet, knees, head, mouth (teeth). He could have grabbed scotum or penis with his hands, or bite his private parts since he claims Trayvon was sitting on top of him. I took a self defense class back in the 70’s.
Even without any martial arts — anybody who has ever watched TV for more than a half hour on Saturday morning kartoons knows how a person fights when someone has “mounted” them!
I keep thinking back to yesterday when West suggested that the prosecution’s opening statement was based purely on emotion while his was based on the facts. LoL!
Well, how’s this for detail West ? For starters, I’m sure the jury noticed how far away from the concrete Trayvon’s body lay.
I don’t do twitter or other social media. When some say the state is framing Fogen somebody please reply “YOU LIE”….teeheee.
I hope some of are recording and will post the trail later tonight. I have been running in and out of my office and have been unable to watch today. “I hate to keep asking what just happened” lol.
I hope the jury realize the pictures MOM has been flashing everywhere are fake photo shopped copies.
WFTW is archiving the footage of the trial in 30 minute chunks. Check their website.
@ whonoze, Do you have a link for WFTW (or is that maybe a typo)? Thanks.
No doubt Trent will have the whole thing posted to YouTube lickity-splitly.
The officer’s photos SURE MAKE THEM LOOK THAT WAY!!!! Like I said upstream, how is it that, at the crime scene his nose was swollen enough to be distorted, & 1 hr or less later, his nose is barely swollen instead of being worse? Please explain it to me!!
@Woow!
IIRC and IANAL, but the jury can’t “realise” anything not in evidence and will be instructed to that effect by the judge. If the photos West flashed yesterday are accepted into evidence, apparently they have not been yet, and not objected to by the State and the state wins the objection, then they are accepted as factual, i.e. the jury has to take them as is, i.e. it cannot then assume or speculate that they are fake which from my professional opinion they are not.
@gbrbsb
“West flashed yesterday are accepted into evidence, apparently they have not been yet, and not objected to by the State and the state wins the objection, then they are accepted as factual,”
If the state wins the objection why would the photos be accepted as factual. The object of objecting is to keep them from being accepted as factual. The photos paraded around by MOM and W are photo shopped. The nose was not superimposed over Fogens nose evenly. Look at where the lines are. That is not a result of a break but bad overlapping of another photo. Also when the nose swells the shape of your nostrils do not change.
Photos are heartbreaking! Brought me to tears.
The 1st one made me gasp. And I thought I was beyond such strong emotions. It kicks ya right in the gut.
________________________________
The photos made me realize how skinny TM was, tall yes, but very slim. His baggy clothing hides this (7-11 video), IMO.
Denise~ Trayvon’s nickname was Slim.
________________________________
I’m just sick after seeing poor Trayvon lying there like that.
me too..
Yes, hard to think of TM lying there alone that night dying at the hands of a stranger, who was supposed to help keep neighborhood safe. It really touches me like no other case and I can’t explain why.
Will the ruling on the phone calls be done today?
Anyone have a link to morning session yet? Apparently this is Trent’s class day – nothing from him and no one else seems to have posted yet either.
http://www.youtube.com/user/thecount/videos
15 minute mid-afternoon recess.
Resume at 3 pm EDT.
Was the part of the gun that could have hit gz’s nose during recoil ever tested?
15 minute break not long enough for Ma West…
All the clothes were bagged in paperbags.
West all out lied in opening statements.
OMG I didn’t hear that… when, what did she say, how ?
What did W say about the clothing during his opening?
What did he say?
He said they were incorrectly bagged in plasticbags(TMs clothing)and said evidence was lost because of it,such as dna
and blood.He also went on and onabout how bad it smelled like amonia and mold effin liar and actor.
Actually you fail to realize that she testified that the clothes she packed were into paper bags, it would have been the coroners office that packed the clothes from the victim…. That part has not been testified to yet… However, they are not trying to play with a full deck, it will still be possible to get DNA samples for a long time even with them having been stored in plastic bags. That is another less than factual statement that was made by the Fogdoits defense (less) team! Again it would seem that they intend to simply throw out allegations of fact against the wall and see what sticks and when caught simply say, “I must have MisSpoke”! I would rather they simply say “Ok, I lied, and you caught me, I will try to lie better next time”!
Ma West is quiet as a church mouse.
That would be on account of the hole he dug. He’s talking about pants and screwed that up.
Roh oh, did the can have DNA on it? Whose?
I wonder if she got prints off of the skittles can.
Skittles were in a bag.
skittles packarizona juice was in a tin/can.
She said she swab the Skittles and flashlight only once.
fumes adhere to sweats an grease
My emotions are becoming stronger as I look at gz !
Whew!
Me too.
Do you think an ice pack will help?
or putting my head under a cold water faucet?
Calm down yahtc!
piece by piece Fogen’s lies are being exposed.
Xena foggagge doesn’t have a clue period.
LOL@Colin Black. Bet GZ wishes now that he and his legal counselors had spent time examining crime scene evidence rather than denigrating Trayvon and running after Zidiot conspiracy theories.
@Xena … No joke. This brings to mind West’s alleged specialty — plea bargaining. Apparently Team Fogen expected an offer … maybe they thought they could negotiate having killer do some time at Seminole jail at the mostuntil things died down in a year or so … much better than a stretch in a state pen. But that day has yet to come, and it won’t. Corey and team are going for broke.
God is just too good. The very pictures they flaunted are showing the jury there wasn’t any serious injuries. You could barely see any scratches.
Yes, God is amazing! I have chills.
Nothing escapes God’s eye! He brings everything to the light.
Yes, what an amazing God!
And NO, I mean NO blood whatsoever, found nowhere at the crime scene.
I keep hearing LLMPapa’s words from his Father’s Day message, “It’s Alright”.
How much you want to bet that MOM and W will still try and pass off their bloody photos before the trial is over.
Oh, I’m sure he will. On re-direct, he pointed the bumps on each side of his head, and the back. To me, his head could be just made that way.
her husband gave it to her.
And a gun…
Foggen is wide awake now! Looks like somebody finallly got his attention.
The State is going dot by dot. As Corey said, bit of evidence by bit of evidence.
GZ doesn’t have a clue of where the State is going with this witness.
I like how she pauses for at least 1 second before answering any question.
Yeah I’ll bet the court reporter appreciates that.
Jacket’s much deeper rust coloured red, than bright orange red.
Underwear collected? If in a life struggle, after eating dinner, this begs a question. How clean was it?
Or dry.
Military Combat evaluators will tell you that, when a person fears for the loss of their life, the normal biological reaction is for the bowels to release, to make the body lighter for flight. Therefore, gz’s under garments should have been filled with evidence of his fear.
Lonnie-Lol! Instead it’s filled with his stories. That us, it’s the same shit v
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Lets keep it real……he’s a shit for brains….not a shit in pants….there is a big difference.
sorry his right
foggagge just said he had washed an cleaned up to whomevers on his left.
You can wash away a broken nose? Neat trick.
Does anyone know what all those spots were on the jacket and shirt? Gunpowder residue?
________________________________
I believe those were holes cut out to remove samples for forensic analysis.
whonoze~ thanks.
________________________________
The only GSR they found was one particle, on his upper sleeve, behind him. I’m still trying to figure that one out.
fogen don’t like this
I like how she calls him Zimmerman, no Mr.
x2
Grass stains on toes of shoes!
And non on the back!
Exactly!
bam clean as a whistle
Aw poor fat fuck has a scratch on his nose.
big resigned sigh from the accused
I must confess that it was Professor Leatherman who I think originally pointed out the gun recoil thing. It was either him or another poster here. But once I saw that post and looked at the pics of Zimmerman’s facial wounds, it was fairly obvious. I just hope the state goes there. I believe West may have mentioned recoil in his opening.
Thank you Professor Leatherman and all the other posters for all you do.
We have very same gun — gun is light so kickback is powerful that is best controlled by shooting/stabilizing with two-hand grip. Shooting ONE-HANDED, with face close to weapon, could easily cause facial injury from the kickback.
THERE’S ANOTHER POTENTIAL FACE DINGER THOUGH: the ejecting shell casing could easily hit one’s face (especially if firing weapon close to face). MY personal theory is that fogen got the ding on the bridge of his snout from the shell ejecting and the double whammy of the gun kickback dinging his upper lip/tip of nose.
Here’s a you tube video I just found that is an 11-minute “review” of the weapon that demonstrates the kick-back, how it’s fired with double-handed hold, and the shell casings ejection path:
okk their about to show fogens fight for his life clothe gear
no blood observed on sidewalks ….
Oh my God with the standing up! Stupid you do not want people to identify you. No suspect wants to be identified! Jesus!
here come the photos of a pristine hardly injured foggagge.
Sure he washed his hands, BUT blood gets under nails, and sure as heck I’d be scratching someone if not trying to land blows or nail sensitive areas, eyes, adam’s apple area covered by fabric or not, punch directly low blow below the belt, anywhere, ‘grapple’ a thumb or pinkie and get a bite in.
Last think you’d worry about is body fluid borne diseases IF it is a life and death struggle, not even going to enter your mind.
(Sargent Romando (sp) made that so clear in his priorities with this young male victim, and it was HIS decision that he could not wait for a mask as normal procedure… life or death, and the life was not even his own). Unselfish human being.
Since O’Mara was laying some foundation to close with ‘fogen just like the veteran marine, let’s compare this aspect to fogen in closing too!!!
Fogen got his face beaten in AND DIDN’T BLEED! What an amazing human being he is.
He’s so amazing, I bet he can even walk on water.
He seems to think so
walks on piss
Here we go! No blood on sidewalk!!! Got em’
No blood in the grass
no blood on the concrete
Boom!
No grass on the back of his head, back of jacket, back of pants, shoes, hands, anything! Also, how can the nose be so swollen as to be distorted at the crime scene & 1 hr or less later at the police station, not the same or worse?
Ms. X~ EXACTLY! gz did NOT look like a man that was just in a fight for his life!
________________________________
@Ms.X
I did notice grass on his shoes, the front of them. This gives the impression he was on top of Trayvon.
Sleuth- correct. And the backs if his shoes and jeans were totally clean and dry. Shimmying but no mud? No grass stains?
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Now we are going to hear about the photos of fogen at the SPD.
Yup– we are going to see more than we have seen before.
All those close up head shots show VERY LITTLE damage to that melon.
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In 2 hours and 45 minutes they found no blood on sidewalk from the ass beating?
Publishing the small keychain with flashlight.
Gun asks “do you recall if the flashlight was on or off?” (paraphr)
Officer Smith “It was ON.” [emph add’d]
(we will hear that the other flashlight was working but NOT CLICKED ON, therefore the flashlight near the body, was dropped by fogen when the encounter occorred or when he dropped it for some other reason, at the area where Trayvon’s body was found.)
An he had the cheek to tell a co worker the next day Trayvon tried to mug him
He had a few cents an Trayvon had more money in his pockets than he an shellie had in the bank =16 dollars go figure.
I said the same thing when I first read the story about his co-workers that lie. Guess he was trying to figuring which story would fly. Might be another reason he checked Trayvon’s pockets.
foggagges is thinking shit a missed that money wished he had pocketed it as first instalment of his BLOODMONEY donations.
The witness called Trayvon the VICTIM! YES!
I realise finances are tight but five bucks for a pointer?
foggagge couldn’t look at Trayvons close up of his face looked away
He’s been proud of his handy work all of this time, he should be able to look at it.
Yeah I noticed that. Freaking coward. Own what you did, Fogen. Face it like a man.
@colin black.
Just like Jodi Arias couldn’t look at photos of what she did to Travis Alexander.
The sister also left. I never saw her back in the courtroom. Maybe she had an appointment.
Where are the supposed bruises and cuts on his hands from beating the stupid out of George’s face?
Yes, his hands have no blood at all. So much for “they never checked his hands for blood”.
“Objection your honor, prosecution is trying to prejudice the jury by presenting the crime scene”
You are crazy, don’t give them any ideas! 🙂
That’s right, they don’t think any crime was committed!
yup he shot with one hand the other was holding Trayvon to stop his escaped pulled him close an fired an recoil thumped bridge of nose.
Ever since that has been brought up I’ve been hoping the state will go there. I always thought Fogen got his injury when the two fell to the ground as Trayvon tried to escape but what you have been saying about the recoil and holding Trayvon makes sense to me.
@colin
I’ve been saying that since April 2012 over on HP, folks over there thought it was laughable.
I can understand non-owners, and people who have no familiarity with guns having doubts. But it’s surprises me when some gun owners deny this possibility. It’s not like recoil is something new, and I’ve seen injuries far worst than his due to kickback.
The evidence is as plain as the minor injuries on his nose.
@Sleuth,
Non-gun owners likely think, “Oh, the Kel-Tek was so light, what harm could it do?”
It’s its LIGHTWEIGHT that creates the problem.
No mass to absorb the energy from the firing.
I hunt with a small, elegant, light-weight Italian 20-guage shotgun (Beretta). It was a gift, perfect for a woman with narrow shoulders and small hands and wrists. The opening day of hunting season (September 1 in CA) I hunted from the requisite 30 minutes before sun-up throughout the day – taking a break mid-day to thoroughly clean and ice the birds – exuberant from a great day in the field wearing a straw hat, T-shirt and Levis.
When I stripped down to shower that night I was stunned to see my shoulder where the butt of the “small, elegant, lightweight” shotgun rested. It looked like fresh hamburger. I had no manly muscle to absorb the recoil. The next day my arm was immobilized. The bruising did not fade until October.
I hated to despoil the architectural beauty of this elegant shotgun, but, reluctantly, I had a recoil pad attached. I sewed a double flap of sheepskin as a gunpatch on a set of T-shirts and on my Levis jacket for added protection.
Beretta taught me my lesson on recoil.
Am I crazy or does this image show the large flashlight was ON after the shooting???
I believe it was on.
Yes, I recall too from the evidence dump that this flashlight was on.
I also noticed 1 leg up, 2nd leg straight out, hands under body. Why did one leg go straight? If he was mounted wouldn’t you expect to see both legs bent since he pretty much died instantly? Just curious. If he feel forward and died as I suspect he did shouldn’t both legs be bent?
This is not a picture of the flashlight. It is a picture of the body.
that also shows how Martin got the muddy knees…AFTER he was shot!
I think Of Smith, the first time the photo was shown, confirmed in cross that the light glow was the flash of the camera not the torch.
NOPE, the little flashlight on the keychain (up near the T) was on.
The light on this photo is not coming from that torch. You can see where the strap is on it, which is towards Trayvon. The strap is always on the bottom of a flashlight, not on the end the light comes from, which in this case is pointing away from the body.
Or foggagge he loves to point the finger
But its not a blackboard so he will let it pass.
I never knew the deal on that first aid kit… does anybody know how that got there?
witt 6 jon brought it out
A neighbor took it to the Police.
Thank you! I hope it comes out that Fogen didn’t need so much as a bandaid from that box, and it couldn’t help Trayvon.
Zimmerman murdered that child in cold-blood, with no thought for human life. He has no remorse. I pray that his conscience is tormented until he confesses and admits that he killed that child.
I agree x infinity.
No pointer? use skellator
Considering all the blood on Zimmerman, how could this kid have beat him the way Zimmerman describes it and not have a considerable amount of Zimmerman’s blood on him? I am of the opinion that the real bleeding started after Zimmerman fired his gun and it kicked back and hit him in the face. That’s the reason there’s only that spec on blood on TM’s clothing. Zimmerman didn’t start bleeding until he fired the shot and the gun kicked back and hit him in his face. That’s why there’s 2 identical sized pinholes on the tip of his nose and the source of the bleeding is the cut above the upper lip. His nose was never broken. His facial injuries were caused when his Kel-Tec 9 recoiled. All the user reviews I’ve seen on that gun make reference to the considerable recoil. I truly believe that is the likely scenario.
Am among many who share your recoil theory.
@Stormwatch –
@Trained Observer –
The lighter the firearm, the greater the recoil.
The Kel-Tek was the lightest (and flimsiest) semi-automatic pistol on the market. It did not have the physical MASS to absorb the kick-back energy generated at the point of firing the shot.
Normally Zimmerman (and others) would fire this gun in a two-handed, semi-crouch position. The two hands to steady the gun, the knees flexed to provide some spring action to the shooter’s body as part of the mass absorbing the energy exerted at the point of firing.
Not only was Zimmerman firing single-handedly (because his dominant left hand was occupied by the grasp on Trayvon’s
shirts), the hand Zimmerman fired with was his WEAKER right hand. There is nowhere this gun could go as the bullet fired FORWARD, except for the gun to move BACKWARD in response. It’s simple physics.
Zimmerman’s gun at the point of firing was in close proximity to Zimmerman’s head because he was crouched over Trayvon, who was pinned beneath Zimmerman, and Zimmerman needed to be close in, to position the gun barrel perpendicular to Trayvon’s torso for the precise to-the-heart shot.
Ballistic/forensic evidence proves the placement and direction of the shot.
Just get down on your knees and lean forward so you are hovering your head over what you would estimate the location of the victim’s heart, with the muzzle of your gun roughly 10 – 14″ above the floor. Your head would be directly above that point so you could spot “the mark” correctly. See how close the gun would be to your face?
SMACKKKKKK! right back into the lip area!
I have always believed the lower lip got the brunt of it – likely both upper and lower lips were smashed against Zimmerman’s teeth, and with such soft tissue surfaces meeting hard, the lip split. The lower lip is particularly vascular and blood would spurt out – Zimmerman likely opened his mouth involuntarily, in surprise, and the blood flow forward.
Gun could have also continued its flight to nick GZ’s skin in the upper nose area. Great force, coupled with short distance = “cosmetic damage” (i.e .no real or permanent damage) with lotsa show of blood.
There was no blood flow FROM the nostrils. None.
Zimmerman’s bloody face — note it’s only the lower half — resulted from the Kel-Tek kickback.
I agree with you 1,000%.
I choose not to speculate how he received his injuries as it’s only conjecture and not relevant. What I’m convinced of is that his injuries were not received the way he claims nor are his injuries anywhere near consistent with the pavement pounding and face punching. I trust the State will have expert testimony to this. I also trust the State will attempt to reenact the struggle GZ claims to show it wasn’t possible.
Defense made a point of the few knots appearing on GZs head…for the number of knots showed, he only had bleeding from one area. None of the knotted areas were red or inflamed as one would expect. For all we know he just has a lumpy head. How is it you had such few minor abrasions that were visible hours later, yet no black eyes, bleeding from nostrils, sever swelling of face, eyes or nose…after 20-30 ground£ MMA type punches!
“There’s something wrong with your love story, baby”
Why Diana kinda favor Shellie to me?
Do you think Fogen wonders why his SheLie, sitting home on her butt, couldn’t have had a career like Officer Smith’s wife?
He doesn’t think, and he’s numbed out.
I think he likes being able to control ShelLIE’s life circumstances. Shellie is along for whatever kind of easy ride she can get as well. I’d say they have a good symbiotic relationship of mutual exploitation.
I’ve been reasonably unemotional about all this, but gotta say, the picture of Trayvon’s body on the grass really got to me. I was totally unprepared for it. Hope it affects the jurors the same way.
Yes.
K Belich says Jurours shocked an takeing notes dureing the photos of Trayvons body.
Notes…….Body nowhere near concrete???????????????
One thing that struck me about Trayvon’s body was he looked extremely thin. Hope the jurors took note of that.
If they are taking notes, as said, they are paying attention.
They Are the jury, after all.
Had to step away again, what is the side bar for now?
Skellator wants a side bar.
I forget who first said it but West and MOM do look like keepers of the crypt.
I like how Guy is referring to Trayvon as “the VICTIM”, unlike the defense who calls him “Mr. Martin”, like he was an adult male with no victim status.
Next Witness 1:47 pm. Diane Smith, crime scene tech, prior was evidence tech (transport and inventory evidence).
Ed’n on job training, and training in specifics for this job (she detailed) and stays current with courses, Aorox few hundred scenes processed, married to Tim Smith. Respond sometimes to same calls when rotations the same.
Responded to RTL arrival pprox 7:55 pm. Scene already taped off, weather intermediate showers (did she mean intermittant?)
Briefed on scene by other officers when she arrived.
Wife of Ofc.Timothy Smith
Clearly no nepotism prevention policy at Sanford PD
Wife-in-law of Fogenites.
The position of Trayvon’s body when the police arrived is new. Another lung nail in GZ’s narrative coffin;
It was “drizzling” (and not raining) is also new.
This is getting better and better. Go Guy!
Have read that in evidence before– intermittant, drizzly, to that effect. (could have been from neighbors, maybe on fdle reports, but can’t remember where, but definitely documented not quite as John or Jon implied in his statement as really awful weather outside.)
hope they beat the snot out of that eveil MF when he goes to prison.
That child’s body was no where near the sidewalk
@
Doesn’t matter Trayvon picked it up an armed himself with it an it supposedly fell back in place when he was MURDERED.
Nowhere near the T either……….
MOM tried to suggest that the body was left in the rain long enough to wash off the blood evidence.
That’s is sure going to be one of their tacks because West already commented on it in the opening. He also commented on the fact SPD had not bagged Trayvon’s hands, and items were stored in plastic instead of paper bags as they apparently should be if wet.
Zimmerman sure did have a I don’t give a shit attitude when they showed Trayvon’s body…he has no remorse…I feel for Tracy and Sabrina this is so so bad.
Yep
Not only no remorse, but he said on TV he wouldn’t do anything different that night! He is evil. He is also trying to steal Trayvon’s screams.
And he was serious, I pray he gets convicted he looked to me as though he was angry…angry at Trayvon because Trayvon would not submit, the kid just wanted to get away to go home. He WILL do this again if he gets away with murdering Trayvon.
Yeah he was very angry Trayvon wouldn’t submit to his authority. I really do think he was high/drunk on some substance that night. He was really crazy. Who chases after kids at night? And why was he so angry? Trayvon did nothing to him. Fogen is very deluded and dangerous.
When Sybrina looks away from the projection sreen to avoid the photos, she’s looking right at the jury, and they can look into her eyes.
GZ’s attitude is a curse upon him, and he just took it all within. This was his Saturn return point where he could have repented. He didn’t.
Do you know about astrology? What would you guess his rising sign is? My 1st choice is Gemini, because he is such a Dr.Jeckyll Mr. Hyde. My 2nd choice is Sagittarius, same reason, but might put jupiter, uranus or neptune in his 1st. My 3rd choice is Libra with pluto in the 1st or conjunct the asc.
DEFINITELY Ur-anus. HEAVY on the anus part in EACH of his houses.
@Ms.X. No astrologer yet knows GZ’s time of birth. They have used a noon time. For his chart, as well as Trayvon’s, you can check the following link.
http://www.astrotrends.net/famous-horoscopes/crime-martin-trayvon
Ms. X, wouldn’t Toady’s natal Libra sun be enough to impart a Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde personality?
I have a friend who has a late Libra sun and he frustrates me to no end because he vasilates and goes to extremes when it’s not necessary.
Hasn’t transiting Saturn separated from a conjunction with Toady’s natal Saturn and I don’t believe it will retrograde and make another hit on his natal Saturn.
Another thing that disturbs me is that Jupiter moves into Cancer tomorrow and it will eventually square Toady’s natal Libra Sun which means that Toady will get some good luck in the near future and with an all female jury (Cancer being the sign of the mother) that would be a sign for his not being convicted or maybe getting a hung jury and a plea bargain from the State so they won’t have to go through the expense of a retrial, then on to collecting money from NBC.
I also am disappointed that the Pluto-Uranus square is separating from Toady’s natal Libra Sun. I thought it would take him down with Pluto in Capricorn pounding his sun with a square and Uranus in Aries opposing his sun and creating a T-square
roderick~ which is all bogus because the prosecution has the body, the forensics, the ballistics and medical examiners report. NO good luck for gz. No I don’t really believe that stars and planets take precedence over free will and determined action. You can take this pro-Z star chart and stick it in the 8th planet.
________________________________
@roderick2012. I leave interpretation of astrology to astrologers who are familiar with GZ’s chart. Also numerologists have predicted that GZ’s life is destined to isolation and bankruptcy. Regardless of that, he has some serious spiritual, negative energy returning and within, and that’s not astrology neither numerology. It’s just a spiritual truth.
@Xena, isolation doesn’t necessarily mean imprisonment but it could also mean that if he’s acquitted that he has to leave the country and live a hermit existence because he is one of the most hated human being who ever lived.
As for as bankruptcy, it probably has something to do with his natal chart since George seems to come into lots of money suddenly but loses it just as quickly.
We all know that George has lots of negative karma and if he doesn’t pay in this lifetime he will pay in the next.
@roderick2012.
Without a wife. Without friends. Without co-workers. Alone.
But it’s his numerology, not natal chart, and there is no recovery.
As much as I look into all matters of the seeking spiritual truth, it is well settled in my heart to believe that it’s appointed to man once to die, and then the judgment.
I never stated that if George had to leave the country that he wouldn’t be alone.
Heck George can be in a group of people yet he will always be alone with his conscience.
As of the other stuff we will agree to disagree.
Have a great evening.
Roddy- then truly GZ will be alone for he HAS no conscience.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Everyone has a conscience. Some people are disconnected from theirs for whatever reasons.
@roderick2012.
What about the stuff before the other stuff too? 🙂
It is what it is.
roderick~ Gz will go to prison as he deserves. He’s already come into his money and burned through ALL of it. Honestly, do you have ONE SINGLE CONCRETE reason HOW an acquittal is even possible? His NEN call will nail him if the forensics don’t. ALL together, it spells 35 years to life for gz. Prison is gz’s future. A gated community of his peers awaits him.
________________________________
Did I say that I wanted George acquitted?
I want him to rot in jail for the rest of his life never forgetting about the life he snuffed out because he could, but juries don’t always follow the evidence.
I was just talking about my astrological interpretation of current transits.
Awww, Cielo, how I have missed you but I still love you too. *sarcasm off*
You forget that the jury makes the ultimate decision.
Xena, I was just giving my amateur interpretation of what I thought his chart may bring.
I am definitely not pro-George by any means but given the current cultural climate I wouldn’t doubt that the jury ends up hung–five innocent and one guilty.
roddy~ Gee I didn’t miss you at all! Pains in the butt are usually gratefully forgotten. Yes, the jury will decide; it was THEIR free will I was alluding to. But I guess it went right over your pointed hood, er, head. It’s all of Day 2. Personally, based on the available evidence, gz is toast. In his case, he’s big enough to be Texas Toast. BTW, have you found your 7th planet yet? You can post your amateur legalize in there.
________________________________
Yet you continue to respond to me.
It must mean you have strong feelings for me.
Remember there’s a thin line between love and hate. LOL
roddy- and no line at all between hate and revulsion. I’ll be pleased once you self-ban once again.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
It’s too bad it’s not your blog.
They tried to go for rain washing off DNA from Trayvon’s hands, but failed.
Sure did — but they still can’t explain how rain didn’t wash blood off GZ’s big head.
Great point. How is it rain did not wash blood from GZ’s face and head.
Great point Xena!
@chi1224. Maybe they believe they are so superior to others that people only require rain to wash off blood, while they need a bath using Dawn dishwashing liquid — it cuts grease in half.
or how blood was not found on the sleeves, visibly or otherwise
First of all, the washing away in the rain makes no sense at all because, we see Trayvon’s hands are tucked under his body. so whether they are pressed against his chest or against his pants there would have been blood transfer from Zimmerman’s supposed bloody face from all the punching, bloody nose, and smothering. There certainly would have been traces of blood on the grass under Trayvon’s body if he had given Zimmerman this brutal beating
@KittySP. Blood splatter. Had Trayvon beat GZ about his face, and also while his nose was purportedly bleeding, there would be blood splatter of GZ’s blood all over Trayvon’s hoodie and pants.
..and face and hands.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
NOT with the officers et al there within minutes. I’d say blood is VERY hard to wash off, both skin and clothes.
________________________________
It’s utterly ridiculous! Not to mention, if we’re to believe GZ, he said he spread Trayvon’s hands out looking for some kind of weapon…why was there no transfer of his own blood back to him?!
if you look at trayvon’s one visible hand you can see there is no sign of him having beat anything or anyone they are pristine. the jurors saw it too.
I get it. MOM is saying hands rained on for 15 minutes. I guess dna only survives on wet clothes. Not wet body parts.
I expect the DNA expert to tell the jury a light drizzle would not wash away all traces of DNA
And Trayvon’s hands were under his body.
So Judy shielded from the rain.
Except that wont ‘wash’, because officers were on the scene less than 5mins after shooting…none reported seeing blood on his hands. I have no doubt, that if there had been any visible signs of Trayvon having attacked GZ they would have been sure to note in written reports and taken pic, just as Wagner did of GZs face.
The night was dark but nowhere nears dark as foggagges heart.
Suppose the rain washed away the d na even although Trayvons hands wher underneath him.
Perhaps the reason that Trayvon didn’t have his own blood on his hands was because he wasn’t bleeding from the front that much. That wound hardly has any blood.
Plus the holes in the clothes were higher than the actual hole to his chest. So basically blood dripped on clothing not out the gun shot holes since they were higher up on hoodie.
the tests said there was no Foreign DNA on Trayvon’s hands/nails, not that they didn’t find his own blood.
@Shannon.
That’s right, and you know why ASA Guy went through all of that, including the photos of GZ’s head and face? Because he is coming back later to establish that with that blood on GZ’s face and head, there is no way that his DNA and/or blood could not have gotten underneath Trayvon’s fingernails.
Wonder why there were no GZ’s fingerprints on his tactical flashlight with all that banging he did to it?
Excellent point. If the rain washed it away, it would have washed it all away.
BTW–I noticed that the forensic tech searched the sidewalk for evidence of any blood–but didn’t find any.
Good I want them to be 100% mindful at all times that a boy lost his life because of Fogen, I want the focus to stay on Trayvon.
chil~ EXACTLY!
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I did not know they are showing the jurors.
I’m getting this info from reporters that are in the courtroom.
Huh? You haven’t seen them, have you?
“They” aren’t …. someone from inside courtroom is reporting on how they looked.
This could backfire, trying to make fogen look like a veteran Marine with a graduate degree in criminal justice.
But one thing is the same, fogen’s haircut at the time he tracked down, followed and killed Trayvon with a bullet that was designed to kill, not leave a body.
Object, damnit. Sgt. Raimundo is not an expert on photography. (BTW, no photograph can show lighting conditions as perceived by the human eye…)
True
Moron omara is very disrespectful to a law enforcement officer as a witness calling him a cop on the witness stand.
IKR…that’s I know, Right? I had to look it up on urban dictionary.
I saw that Patricia. I call them cops when I’m being disrespectful.
Wao, Guy did it. He is being a Sky-Hawk again, while O’Mara continues to make a fool of himself.
I understand state wanting to lay ground work leading up to evidence that will prove M2, but I wonder if all the matters related to NW is really relevant, when GZ didn’t inform NEN dispatch, or give statements that he was acting in his role of NW Coord/Liaison. That has been the issue his family, and supporters were so vocal about.
I feel the state’s case of M2 is easily provable based on his lies, regardless if he was acting as NW volunteer, or concerned citizen…something I would be wanting to know is, why he purposely didn’t identify himself as being part of NW on this call, as he’d done on previous calls. He makes a point to reference previous break-ins, and reporting who he consider’s a person behaving suspiciously…yet didn’t think it important to mention his NW role. That, I find suspicious. IMO, that says to me that his intentions that evening were other than that of ‘concerned’ resident, who while on his way on an errand, saw someone out of place, and notified police.
I can understand the state wanting to cover the NW aspect. however, imo, i think it leaves door open for defense to argue that GZ wasn’t acting on behalf of NW that night. That he was GZ, a resident/concerned neighbor, going to Target on his weekly errands, called NEN, and then end up being brutally attacked(allegedly).
Would it be a good strategy for state to ask witnesses that are residents of RATL, that didn’t participate in NW, but also had same concerns of GZ, what they would’ve done after contacting NEN?
I think it is a bad idea to make the distinction. Whether he was NW George or just George, shouldn’t matter.
Darling, come back. Don’t wander into the weeds.
@KittySP.
Two things;
1. On his prior calls, GZ introduced himself as NW. He didn’t on the 2/26/12 call, which indicates his intentions of going beyond the scope of NW.
2. In his statements, written and oral to LE, GZ justified his suspicion of Trayvon by referring to his position as Captain of NW.
Effectively, when GZ followed the instructions of NW by calling NEN and repeating a “suspicious person” like he had previously, he put on his NW cap.
Let’s face it.
There are certain things that one learns to say to bring the police if they are likely to give your call a low priority. Just a suspicious person may bring someone next week if they aren’t too busy.
A REAL suspicious guy, hands in waistband (like maybe he has a gun), maybe he’s on drugs or somepin, looking in houses. All those things help to up the priority.
George knew the drill.
I think that it is easy to picture the defense proving its case by showing that GZ has lied about everything that he said. But that doesn’t add up to providing the jury with a theory of the crime that they can accept beyond a reasonable doubt. It just leaves a vaccuum.
What I see the prosecution doing with a number of these background witnesses is laying a foundation for Z’s state of mind with regard to Trayvon Martin. He identified him–and others similarly featured–as being a part of an elusive criminal class bent of victimizing the RTL and he had become obsessed with keeping them from getting away. He had his own narrative about who they all were, where they came from, what they were doing and how they were getting away with it.
Sadly for him, nobody else we have heard from yet was in on this with him (perhaps Frank Taafe with his “plant corn, corn comes up” remarks). He had set up NW as his own little fiefdom.
So–by the end of the trial, the jury should be able to see that GZ was more than just casually interested in making calls when he saw something “suspicious,” he had become highly invested in stopping punks who fit a certain description. He had armed himself. He had taken to giving direction to the police (one of his calls he told them to send an additional cruiser into the next project over because that is where “they” always run to. He was deeply disappointed that none of his calls had resulted in an arrest.
And this time he fully intended to not only keep eyes on his “suspect” but to hold him until police came.
And when he found himself facing the reality of a dead kid, he started spinning to cover everything that he knew he had done wrong.
Yup…..Pretty much sums it up…..
There are no set hours of duty for NW. NW is gz’s reason for being suspicious because he is aware of the crime in the neighborhood. He was on “patrol” because he considered himself to be on patrol. He considered himself to be watching out for the neighborhood. Obviously Trayvon wasn’t headed for his house, he claimed he was concerned because Trayvon was heading for his neighbors houses.
So gz’s excuse for his actions is no excuse at all, because NW has told him time and again, you don’t protect your neighbors by becoming a vigilante. gz should have remained in his truck and Trayvon would have made it home alive. Instead gz tried to be the hero and capture Trayvon. When he did, he realized he had broken the law and might very well face years in prison, if Trayvon lived to talk about it. So he killed the kid and made up a story about being beaten to death.
I know exactly what points MOM is trying to make with Sgt. Romando.
Point 1, making a difference
Point 2. disappointment in how some people view cops, respect etc
And also the point about study criminal justice and also from ‘family of law enforcement’.
He’s trying to parallel this Marine to Fogen, by all of these points.
Right….. (Bill Cosby as ‘Noah’ voice…. RI——-ght! )
Raimondo is everything Fogen wish he could be.
Exactly! Most importantly a kind soul
Sophia~ Yes, gz could only DREAM to be that kind of person.
________________________________
Yes, I just said that to the mister here.
Antithesis of each other.
Another reason for GZ to be upset.
I was going to say Loser!, but I won’t.
Or Bill Cosby with his Football take on Capt. Custer and Capt. Sitting Bull depicting the battle of the Little Bighorn. Call the toss Cus, Cus calls tails it is heads so Capt Sitting Bull wins the toss. Much mumbbling going on and the final decision is Capt Cus, Capt Sitting Bull says you have to sit on that bluff while all the indians in the world ride down on you. This is kind of reminescient of what is going on in court right now. Zimmerman could never have been or acted as a millitary person. I have known too many of them from enlisted to officers. I can see JN’s being cautious with the nut case defense team. The last thing she wants is to be overturned on appeal and let Nuthead GZ back to terrify the populace. Just my take.
O’Mara isn’t going to be able to trip up Raimondo.
MOM is asking very stupid questions. What is the POINT?
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It was dark and Trayvon’s body was exposed to elements. Therefore MOM can say Trayvon could have been hiding and DNA washed off by rain?
nope that guy was by the book as a wit
and I might add very appropriate
I’m loving that guy. All the way.
O’Mara is a fucking idiot
he has nothing for this witness
and he is willing to waste people’s time
“Could you ask the question again?”
He asked if you like donut and bacon jokes, sir.
What did JN say?
Look at the officer’s eyes when Mark asks questions. I don’t think he like MOM and the defense.
This man put his mouth on the mouth of another individual (a black person at that) who was dying without any regard for his personal safety. I applaud this man. Thank you for trying to save that child’s life.
x10
EXACTLY! Not SOP but an exception that HE ruled was important. gz would have been afraid of cooties!
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He definitely had a harder look.
Why is the prosecutor letting MOM use his photos?
Woow! It’s the submitted as evidence, so I guess it’s all the same.
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They’re tricking MOM into doing the “untoward” things. I you watch carefully MOM is getting his cues about what to do next from the remarks the prosecution “let’s slip” about their strategy. Hahaha.
He simply does whatever he thinks the prosecution doesn’t want him to do. No thought given to how it might make him look.
I’ve seen the audience gasp and look at the jury and they appear to be comforted by the jury having the same, if muted, reactions. Notice Angela Corey has not returned? She sees that everything’s going okay.
I don’t know about you I always do my ambushes with my bare hands while having a heavy blunt object-like an Arizona ice tea- in my front pocket
also I try to be on the phone as much as possible
Tzar stop it! you know Trayvon was armed with sidewalk. Yep it still sounds stupid today. Never mind carry on, you are right.
craq I forgot about my deadly sidewalk, I also plan my ambushes with grassy concrete sidewalks made out of grass
But not quite as stupid as a well behaved 17 year old kid, who was non-violent, happy and well fed, engaging in only kid stuff, would suddenly turn into a murderous, combat ready opponent that an adult with professional training couldn’t handle.
Guess how many people Trayvon had thrown out of bars? How many police officers had Trayvon attacked? How many women had Trayvon broken the ankles of?
Let me know when you see a police officer walking around with a sidewalk in his holster!
It’s really hard not to be pissed off and snarky right now, isn’t it? I’m feeling the kind of anger I’m not used to.
I’ll make some herbal for us, shall I?
Yeah, I’ve been crying.
your anger is proper it comes from this truth described by BDLR
“The issue in this case is whether the Defendant had the right to target, follow, shoot and kill an unarmed seventeen year-old child, to then recite a litany of demonstrably false and internally inconsistent versions of the events, and to now shamelessly attempt to co-opt the mantle of victimhood for himself.”
Deborah I feel the anger also. I do not understand how anyone can claim walking makes you suspicious and I do not care if it were during a blizzard in Florida.
Watch MOM will torture Sybrina with the photos.
Sadist loves this part.
I ache for her.
LOOK what you did Fogen. You have forever broke the heart of a Mother and Father. Rot in hell.
RT @vboey : Tracy Martin leaves room as picture of #TrayvonMartin body is shown in court by prosecutor John
Bless this man for trying to revive our Trayvon. Typing through tears, and hating fogen even more.
Thousands of hearts are broken. My heart is broken. There are people crying in the courtroom. It is heart wrenching. So very sad. So sad.
That piece of puke that took Trayvon’s life is sitting there emotional-less. May God have mercy on his soul.
how can this happen…. how did that POS not become physically ill when he witnessed the life leave that child’s body?? how can he live with himself? how can anyone support that child’s body laying there alone in that grass?
I can only wish that the Zimmerman Klan will see the testimony of the officer who tried to save Trayvon and take a good hard look at the obese ugly azzhole who stood by and did nothing after he shot this kid.
i missed that whole witness. i just caught the swearing of this woman. i need to go back and see his testimony.
the only good thing about those pictures is the fact the jurors can see how skinny trayvon was and not the huge thug he had been portrayed to be.
Bleh…. More photos.
I hope they beat the snot out of that eveil MF when he goes to prison.
That child’s body was no where near the sidewalk.
Just returned home and am still in shock over the Supreme Court striking down Section 5 of the 1965 Voting Rights Act…….DEVASTATING!
It was the heart, the core of the Act.
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/25/19132385-supreme-court-strikes-down-part-of-voting-rights-act#comments
http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/06/supreme_court_purges_civil_rights_best_weapon_from_voting_rights_act.html
fat ass fogen put the iced tea can BACK in TRAYVON’S pocket after it fell out! That’s how the fucking blood ended up on the bottom part of Trayvon’s hoodie!!! Please excuse my french, but that picture got me HEATED!
That is possible.
The Iced tea was put in a bag in the 7-11 video.. That bag was found on the sidewalk, but the Tea was in Trayvon’s pocket!
Dammit Sybina is so strong. God bless this woman.
Respect for the Deceased.
A bubbling sound, sir …
How awful for Tracy and Sybrina to hear. But at least they know a cop was trying to revive him … unlike the shooter, who was more interested in covering his own fat ass.
It looks like they are avoiding any further photos.
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Creator of the universe and God of all comfort, please hold Sybrina and Tracy in your loving hands.
Xena~ Blessed be.
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Amen!
let it be so
Amen, and so it is.
god bless officer raimondo
I’m not ready to bless Raimondo. I’ll wait and watch.
he was the first to do his best to bring life back to that poor boy without regard to potential bio hazards, while others just stood around. for that alone, i give him honor, malisha, regardless of whatever obvious problems exist within SPD and the local SAO.
X2 Faux….even commented to the mate about it……..
Don’t know anymore of his background…..yet that act alone was selfless….putting himself in danger…..
He didn’t even know that TRAYVON was an innocent victim at the time………Just a Black kid with a bullet in him…
Need more cops like him
At least he cared enough to try and save Trayvon unlike fat f*ck.
Exactly!
The officer makes GZ look like a bigger weasel for not trying to evaluate and save Trayvon. What an ugly evil IDIOT GZ is.
Indeed. What a careless, stupid man.
Sabrina not looking at the exhibit
Heartbreaking photo.
I was just about to post that. I wasn’t expecting it. So f*cking SAD.
*tears*
yes 😥
Looking at that body makes me want to throw up. I’ll be back later.
Did not expect that! I would have looked away. Sad.
Whoa! I wasn’t expecting that photo. Sent shock waves through my body.
Me too.
Is it really smart to just stand up? What if witness can not identify him? Dumb ass is like here I am, it’s me, George.
Stupid.
I would say I think that’s him…he’s gotten so fat.
Next witness called 1:12 pm est. Sgt. Anthony E. Romando(?), coordinator for training, gen’l training and retraining, firearms use of force, tactics, driving, and member of Sem. Cty SWAT, tactical unit. His specialty with tactical, a sniper.
Patrol, field tr, K9, special tacctical, undercover and street drug units…. (missed the rest).
Prior military, vet of Marines, 9 years. MS in criminal justice, undergrad …………………
Responded to scene of shooting how many times? Hundreds of times responded to ‘shots fired’ calls.
RTL situation. Heard radio person, suspicious call that updated to become disturbance, again updated, subjects ‘armed’ and shots fired.
Within 5 mins responded he estimates.
How did you know where to go? He radioed officer Smith to get directions after entering thru gate.
Now that’s how you get through a Resume. Frye hearing could’ve finished in a day if West was as concise as Guy.
A Sniper! Can you “Snipe” Fogen? I will scream he’s running and you just shoot. I am pretty sure a blind person couldn’t miss his fat ass though.
LOL!
OOOOHHH! A REAL multi-media presentation! NO poster board, elementary school presentation.
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Does court reporter continue to type out what she hears in side-bar? Or is that off the record? It looks like her hands are working the machine while atty’s speak before judge.
After what happened yesterday, Trayvon’s family needs to have their lawyer nearby.
What I don’t get is the defense pointing out Trayvon was walking in the rain. Which in turn made in suspicious yet when he ran to get out of the rain (or away from crazy chester molester chasing him) it did not make him look less suspicious. In fact it made chester the molester watchman RUN after him. Which is? Walking is suspicious in rain and so is running in rain? GUESS lesson to be learned is TO STAY OUT OF THE RAIN.
Hmmm. I live in Seattle. Lot’s of suspicion running amuck here I guess.
Need a vest like fogen? Never mind head and legs. Just cover the heart.
I do eviction and foreclosure defense in Broward County. It takes a month to evict a tenant. Florida law requires posting of the rent money into the court registry when ya answer the eviction complaint. Very few people have affirmative defenses, and even if they do, they fail to post the money into the registry and subsequently waive all defenses. The posting requirement is unconstitutional and we are trying to change it. But it really only takes a month to evict someone. Effective July 1, the partial payment waiver is eliminated.
Thanks for update.
Oh now what?!
Was the 911 lady really as bad for the state as channel 9 says?
She will be among their star witnesses if Peppermint Patty allows her complete testimony.
JN is going to rule against the state. I know she will. It doesn’t matter how good the argument is from the state. On the big decisions, she will always rule in favor of the defense.
Please don’t say things like that.
I don’t think her testimony is all that damaging. I do remember earlier reports in the media last year when she was giving the impression that she was trying to distance herself from him by re-iterating the policies that would indicate he was not following NHW rules.
P. S. So I’m not the only one who calls JN Peppermint Patty. She looks just like her. 🙂
Sleuth~ I STILL think she looks more like Marcie, with those glasses and all…
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Sorry about that. I thought you were referring to Wendy Doravil, my bad.
No way, these analysts expect every little thing to prove the State’s case, all she really could provide was the time calls were made and disconnected, that doesn’t help or hurt anyone’s side of the case standing alone…
Thank you, I agree. The mindsets of some these analysts remind me of The Wiester when he said, “Somebody moved my stuff”, confused as hell.
I would think that purpose of Ms. Rumph’s testimony is to explain more detailed information about how calls are handled.
Lard ass came in late! He is so nonchalant. He just knows he is going to get off.
That’s not how I see it.
He looks mussed up.
You think that heavy breathing lard ass with his sweat and mussed up hair look nonchalant?
It’s okay if we have different eyes.
He looks more f’d up than ever right now.
Deborah~ He looks PO’d.
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I think GZ looks awful. The dark circles around his eyes, bloated face and heavy breathing makes me think he has health issues. I think his psych drugs numb his brain so he doesn’t look like he is capable of feeling anything.
@Deborah, I see it through your eyes. Yesterday, while the name “Rachel” was being constantly repeated, he kept turning his head to the side, and had a very confused look on his face as if to say, “Who is Rachel”.
I mentioned during the last few days of jury selection, it seems as though he was in some type of disagreement with his counsel. Some thought he might have expressed a desire to “flee”. Now I’m thinking they were demanding that he up his dose of meds.
But its obvious to most, that pep he had in his step, all that grinning, smirks, and wide smiling he displayed during jury selection is gone. I guess reality might be starting to sink in.
Negatory. He is trying to look more innocent and unassuming after his fat ass was chastised for standing up in court, something he was not asked to do and something that made him look like the spastic and aggressive clown we all know him to be.
FRED — personal email heading to an inbox near you
And now I have to work 😥 But I will watch it on my phone I guess.
The prosecution team is top notch in this case. Knowing that I still cannot understand why they do not object more to the defense teams shenanigans. I am waiting for them to break out unrefutable evidence we have not seen.
I so hope JN or someone file a complaint with the bar on MOM when trial is over.
No need to object. Giving them enough rope to hang themselves. And a shovel to dig themselves deeper. At the same time appearing, to the jury, to be good guys that don’t interrupt the other side like the other side does with them.
Letting them ramble on has succeeded in 2 witnesses establishing GZ was a wannabe self-appointed snoop, without ever having to say so in actual words.
And to think that as a University student I had a job 3 weekends a month working as a night watchman at a chemical plant. Was only armed with a time clock for insurance purposes and a large flashlight. The chemical plant was located in the country so University students would come there to park. They were not to enter the plant property but they would. Would let them have their fun, walk outside, and shine the large flashlght on their car. It was hard to believe how fast people could dress and get the hell out of there. Keep in mind this was the middle to late ’60’s. However, I think maybe night watch people should on be able to carry a clock to punch in certain keys such that management knows the rounds have been made. Another funny aspect of my job of night watchman was going to work on a Friday night and getting snowed in until Tuesday afternoon. I could not get out and nobody could get in. The plant engineer called me, told me where the keys were to the stock room, and the hot food machine. Got the keys, stocked the hot food machine, and the eclectricty goes off. Lived on cold beanie-wiennies for the duration. However, Tuesday afternoon the plant engineer was able to get in, called me to his office, and gave $100 to go have a good dinner. The plant manager also came in, called me to his office, and gave me $250 for dinner. Told him the plant engineer had already given me $100 and he told me “shut up and just take it.” Had several good dinners with that amount of money. Therefore, a gun is not necessary. Just my opinion!
Fogen will be lucky to get cold beanie-wienies as a snack at Raiford.
If some strange person were following you, would let them follow you to your home where your family is or would you try to lose them and make sure that they aren’t following you?
If a stranger was following me I would call 911. Not sure why Trayvon didn’t. Could be he didn’t want to appear scared. Then again maybe he didn’t have time.
i don’t think he thought it that serious at first. when he decided to run he was still on the phone w.DD. and talking about it w her.
i think in my mind i would’ve felt a sense of security on the phone w her and being close to home in the neighborhood with such dense housing..
i’d think if anything serious happened there were lots of ppl right THERE, just a glass door away! that’s why he screamed for help, there were TONS of ppl home and within a few feet of him!! i’d assume plenty of ppl would come out and HELP me!!!
after he ran and lost him i might feel silly.
but the 2nd time the time the creep started getting closer he mighta been in shock kinda. but still NEVER dawning on him this asshole had a gun or had said or thought the things that asshole had said, thought and done.
i mean he’s a 17 yo kid with out the all critical thinking skills or the life experience to imagine the very WORST of The WORST possible scenario!! i certainly wouldn’t have at his age in that situation.. i would have too had a false sense of security being on the phone with a friend and being so close to home in what appears to be a relatively decent neighborhood.
i just don’t blame him for not calling 911 for several reasons..and bc things did happen so fast.
If Trayvon had called 911 after he ran, it would go like this:
RING RING
Hello — fire police or medical?
I don’t know
Tell me what’s going on?
A real suspicious guy was following me.
Where is he?
I don’t know. I ran.
So he’s not there any more?
No.
OK, let me know if you see him again.
And he’s black. He may not have much confidence about getting help from the police.
But mostly he thought the danger was over. He told DD he’d lost the creepy guy.
Or maybe he’s unlucky that the landlord did not evict him.
It takes time, at least 90 days, to evict a tenant through the county sheriff’s office. When a stinker tenant makes even a teensy partial payment, then the clock starts all over again on eviction. Career deadbeat tenants know this.
No, Trayvon was unlucky the landlord didn’t. I totally believe it would have happened to another child though sooner or later.
If a home goes into foreclosure, the tenant still has to pay rent until the bank takes title. Once that happens tenants can get 90 days or cash for keys. The Protecting Tenants in Foreclosure Act signed by the president in May of 2009. Zimmerman is lucky his landlord did not evict him.
I hope this juror of women are smart. NHW requires that you watch and report. By Zimmerman’s own testimony he was unable to watch and report Martin once Martin ran into near total darkness so on that count alone he failed to follow the spirit behind NHW. At minimum, once he figured out his flashlight didn’t work his ability to watch and report Martin was absolutely zero so for what reason did he remain outside of his vehicle.
When I was a kid, we ran though neighbours yards all the time, played hide and seek, cut through behind trees, buildings, or whatever to hide, sneak away, try to not be spotted while looking to see where the ‘IT’ was searching. Easily confused for looking into a shed or car, when you are not really doing that at all. Not suspicious at all.
We played knocky-knocky nine door, and today, we still have neighbor’s kids doing that (but I hope we were better at it, I see them cut thru the plants to get away or even run away in broad view from the front door).
That suspicious activity? To a z watching type, you bet, unless you are a very small kid or a very young short kid, but what if young teens are playing games outside, how does their behaviour put them at risk with a NW couple like the Z’s fearing, watching and ASS-uming?
How safe was a young teen like Chad and a friend or two, when playing in the area of Chad’s own home, which is in the area of the back gate, and which has spaces between the complexes that is clearly walkable spaces, bushes to hide behind. They are kids, doing what kids NEED to do, get activity, be creative in play, and socialize with friends.
A dangerous world, where types like the armed to carry, Zimmerman’s live.
A friend and I were confronted in the late ’50s or early ’60s by a guy carrying a shotgun as we tried to take a shortcut through a field between blocks as a shortcut to avoid walking 6 blocks or more to get home. We were only little elementary school girls going home after school. This field was empty during the winter, and this guy rented out plots to neighbors for gardens in the summer. I felt ashamed, as though I’d done something wrong and never told my parents. This might be the incident that seeded my dislike of guns.
Sadly, there’s no shortage of idiots around at any time.
Oh, and I also wondered too – we also played hide and seek and various games all over the neighborhood and often times at dusk in the summertime – we must have been at risk if we got anywhere near this guy. I don’t recall ever seeing him again after that one incident.
When I had the ranch, I had two ponds which were stocked with fish. Neighbor kids would ask if they could fish. Told them OK as long as a parent was with them and the parent signed a release prepared by my attorney. They knew where the key to the gate was and the parents signed the release. They caught many fish and the parents were appreciative that the kids were able to fish. They also saw my concern about liability.
Yesterday when the Zimmerman’s were told to leave the courtroom Mama Z grabbed Shelly’s hand as they exited the door. Did anyone else see that?
I noticed Gladys grab ShelLIE’s hand too. Thought it was kind of strange. Maybe they were going to plot how to get back into court using the claim Tracy Martin called somebody a MF.
That was the plot.
There is something about Mama Z that irks me, she puts on a good I don’t understand why act but when I saw her in court that brain is scheming she was intense she was doing more than watching. I think it was Joonyah who said they were protecting the mother…she doesn’t appear to need to be protected from anything and the family was lying she was aware of everything from the beginning.
Did they both count their rings afterward?
Yeah, I notice that, and She-lie whispering in her ear. I just can’t understand why she doesn’t speak English more fluently after living in this country for so many years.
Anyone know of a link to this morning’s recorded morning sesssion? Trent seems to be MIA and others haven’t posted yet.
Haven’t looked, Tstas, but sure would like to get a copy of the section where all of the calls were played in succession at MOM’s request. The recordings are more complete than the early releases and so much better quality.
I don’t know how to get a copy of a video, unless it’s really straightforward on the activity window. That copy, with the day month and time labeling, to show the sequence of calls from August 2012 (when coincidentally the Hollister smiling photo of Trayvon was taken which shows the person the caller would within about 6 months, profile, follow and kill), through September and October, then February with Taaffe’s garage door thing (sounded like a sting op set up or he was too drunk when he left to visit his female friend to not close up).
This will really hurt the state if this is not allowed in, because it shows a pattern and an increase in the activity of fogen, plus SZ’s role of being scared (and the promise of GZ to keep her safe– HIS words about why NW). And as we just heard introduced, the HOA president and HOA gave KUDOS in their little community rag for ‘job well done’. (don’t know that the stucco crew were mentioned in the RATL rag.)
What the heck was O’Mara doing to not deal with this prior to trial? He knew what evidence was listed but did nothing. Big failure.
thank you 🙂
Thank you. Sound so much better than it was live for me today.
@Two Sides. I’m posting the videos as they become available.
The Outhouse has doxed a Rachel Jeanteil and a photo image of her is being posted on various websites and tweeted
crazy, rotten sonsabitches !
Hope the State has her properly protected
Dennis, I don’t recall any where or any time that the Professor has stated the state could not get a conviction on the 2nd degree Murder Charge. While we are all entitled to our opinions, I simply feel it would not be proper for you or I to put words in the Professors mouth that he did not say! If I am wrong and you have direct knowledge of the professors position, feel free to put them out here for all of us to see…..
crazy~ hear, hear! OTOH, I’m convinced Dennis is just a Zidiot troll, looking for a few jollies and yanking our collective chains.
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Yes, I apologize for attributing to the professor things that he may not have said or believes. (Though “get a conviction” as you put it does not mean it will be legally justified.) I was using the professor as a metaphor for the legal community as a whole. That isn’t to say that 2nd degree murder didn’t happen, just that legally it’s a bridge way too far.
I apologize to the professor.
Thanks crazy1946 for pointing out by misstep.
Dennis, and you are qualified to speak for the legal community as a spokes person? Hmmm, what role are you playing in this trial or are you just an observer who enjoys injecting non truths into the blog?
crazy~ LOL! 🙂 We DO agree on this.
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I think we agree on more things than you realize! I just have a slightly different approach on how to bring out a point!
crazy~ Could be! I have a tendency to be a bull in a china shop. Sorry.
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cielo62, no need to apologize, just because we don’t always agree does not mean there is a need to be upset! I have just learned down thru the years with having to deal with people in a professional setting that it is prudent to choose ones battles carefully.
Dennis,
use a bit of patience. This has been going on for over a year, now it’s only 3 or 4 weeks to wait — to hear ALL THE EVIDENCE. It is a bit early for you to declare the evidence is “not there” because you’ve not heard it all. Just wait quietly.
boy oh boy… the prosecution setting traps like a mofo… The defense may know what cards are in the prosecution’s hand, but the defense can’t play it… What I like about the prosecution is, THEY DON’T HAVE TO CHEAT YOU TO BEAT YOU.. The defense on the other hand, seem to be dealing from the bottom of the deck..
Agreed!!
Did Wendy Dorval or O’Brien know Fogen had a ccw and ALLWAYS carried a firearm?
Why don’t they ask this?
Saving ammo for rebutal, maybe?
Lol, good one.
Yeah probably.
we were talking about that at work. We are leaning towards Florida not having any policy on CCW, weapons and neighborhood watch.
Fogen put quiet a number of people including this HOA president’s butt in a pinch…using his words. Attorneys are saying in for HOA to avoid liability with NW is to not be involved or endorse them in any way or it can back to bite you. The guy put eons of distance between him and Fogen.
He ruined everyone there. Higher HOA fees , lower home value, and he was only a renter.
He was suppose to be a renter, but turned out to be a squatter who did not pay his rent.
The state knows, as does the professor, that due to the evidence and lack thereof, the state has no chance of a 2nd degree verdict; it’s a clear overcharge. So what the prosecution was doing in opening was inflaming the jury and, in so doing, telling them that an innocent boy is dead (and, yes, he certainly was innocent) and someone has to pay for it. Because they won’t be able to come back with 2nd degree they’ll satisfy his understandable, but legally dubious, plea by punishing Zimmerman with manslaughter.
What I don’t understand is how a seasoned lawyer like West didn’t use just a few words before his opening to deflate the state’s overly dramatic opening. He could have simply started by saying that passion is understandable in this case as is the desire to pin blame but we’re not here to decide things based on passion, sympathy or retribution, but rather with evidence and reason.
you’ve heard all the evidence?
Boyd~ Dennis is a troll. Don’t feed the trolls. They bite, spit and throw feces.
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Cielo, hilarious! 😆
No Dennis, it is not a clear overcharge. If anything, it’s a clear undercharge.
The only problem with Fogen’s well-deserved eligibility for M1 is specter of the Chair. (I know for a fact that jurors will back off from that.)
The evidence is stacked against GZ. I’m confident he will easily be convicted of murder
Dennis~ Zidiots are NOT allowed on this playground. You must have an IQ greater than room temperature to understand what is happening. OR you willfully ignore EVERY OUNCE OF EVIDENCE we have dissected here the entire past year. Murder 2 is provable. VERY provable.
Don’t you have a Treehouse to go play in and leave us big kids alone?
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I believe that they ARE allowed as long as they act reasonably respectful and stick to FACT-BASED argument. It’s the Professor’s call, though.
i don’t think the state or Professor “knows” that. so that’s just you (and the zimmerlovers) who think murder 2 is an overcharge.
but i agree that state’s opening was passionate. but it was appropriate for this vicious crime. the story laid out was simply what happened using zim’s own words mixed with the truth.
wouldn’t a dramatic opening fit a dramatic crime?
Now Dennis, don’t be mad just because you bumped your head and received a few boos-boos which can be expected when you’re swinging from tree limb to tree limb.
Sleuth~
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Face down in the grass what a tragic picture
Wow, you went a long way on very little fuel, Dennis. I wonder if you’ll have enough fuel left to get BACK when the destination vanishes. Check in with Dershowitz en route! Ta!
Loved it when O’Brien said we did not need a watch.
also the timing is curious that Fogen went to O’Brien to start a Watch the day after he took the job.
Also did not know about the parking Police wonder why the prosecution brought that up.
Aaaaand George didn’t follow through in setting up block watch captains
I get it now foggagge miss heard he thought he was A BLAHCK WATCH CAPTAIN.
colin~ Again, CLEVER! But thank god he’s NOT a Black Watch (Clan) Captain.
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Have always been fond of black-watch plaid.
TO~ Same here. And I truly LOVE bagpipe music!
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I found an old article from 2012 right after Zimmerman was arrested which said neighbors complained to the HOA and SPD about Fogen. Would calling some of the residents who complained about him help to show he was a nut case harassing anyone and everyone in that he community whom he did not think belonged.
Now that the state has successfully bussed the NHW issue wide open I think the state should introduce evidence to show Zimmerman was over-zealous, to a fault.
Woow! I think in part that is why they got the HOA President there. gz did whatever he wanted, regardless of the HOAs wishes EVEN IF they played up his “protector role.”
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I also read a couple of articles about the East Indian neighbor he harassed. Then there were 2 AA teenagers he harassed. They said he always acted weird but they would still say hello to him although he never said hello back.
I maintain my confidence in Judge Nelson and do not believe she’s favoring the defense in any way. If she were, she’d be sustaining their silly objections; in fact, she’s sustaining what I perceive as well-grounded objections from the state and consistently overruling the defense’s nonsense.
I agree with others that in setting aside the NEN calls for now until she can study them and case law, she’s being prudent and thorough.
If anything, West’s opening statement yesterday was enabled by the state’s lack of objection until near the end — not some pro-defense bias on JN’s part.
Essentially, she’s trying to maintain the fairness of the trial, to which Fogen is entitled.
I understand that we are passionate — which is good — but when that turns into panic and “zomg the fix is in!!!!! the judge is pro-fogen!!!”, then you might start to expect more and more from the prosecution, such as immediate spectacular rebuttals; when the prosecution continues along calmly, then you might start to think they’re going down. They know what they’re doing. This is only Day Two!
We know what the true evidence is, and that there’s some we haven’t seen that apparently irrefutably nails Fogen. Don’t forget everything we’ve learned about the law from the Professor, and all of what we’ve discussed in terms of evidence and legal strategy and so on: that’s solid. I have faith.
Standing with you Puck. JN being very careful.
Me too.
Puck~ THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I get really irritated when people are already throwing in the towel on Day 2, KNOWING that we have YET to hear the forensics, the ballistics, the phone/text/email records and the ME. Thank you for explaining things so calmly. MY response is also too “passionate”. (ie I get pissed).
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likewise, sister!
X2!!!!
what was that about an extramarital affair this morning?
Yeah … was the implication that with SheLie refusing or unable to breed, he approached an ex-fiancee to pop one out?
Geez. How did this dumb-butt plan to buy diapers?
TO~ He expected HER to get on welfare and all the government aid for mothers with children. All HE wanted to be was the sperm donor (with the fun activity that it entails).
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Cielo, sweetie. Please. It’s lunch break.
Food. Stomachs.
Just a little kidding. Back to business. Straight Face.
Haaaaaa. I can’t pull it off.
MOM comparing apples to oranges
Tzar~ Somewhere I read that gz was asking his EX girlfriend to have a baby with him because Shellie couldn’t/wouldn’t. In other words, he started wanted his cake and eat it, too. Married with a child (and extra sex) provider on the side. I don’t know IF they actually did anything but his ex reported it.
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I read that somewhere too – that was his reason for seeing her. Like that would endear someone to me. Ughhh
M O M was using all sorts of BS to keep out the previous calls foggagge made on Blahck Kids.
He mentioned forinstace something about extra marital affairs are not relevant in a case of rape of a wife or some thing along those lines.
He was calling the calls prior good acts
An rambled all over the place trying to keep them out
J Nelson will review tapes an the case law provided an give her answer to morrow
I missed that…who had an affair; who brought it up, and when?
My impression was that Fogen wanted an affair but he couldn’t get one.
Oh so he could not find a women that couldn’t tell he rode the short bus to school…..
ok going to face the corner…..bad Woow!
Ok got it
thank’s ya’ll
According to the evidence release she refused him. I’m afraid of why he wants a baby. So what was he going to do with Shellie. I don’t think he really wanted a baby he was going after something else maybe Shellie was angry at him and refusing him at the time or George is just a hound dog he did seem to be hitting on Singleton (IMO)
the stucco guys stayed in the car and did not carry guns! Hello!
MOM trying to play gotcha.
The stucco guys would’ve been armed with nail guns those are lethal
An though they nailed his ass they managed to refrain from shooting him.
colin~ CLEVER!
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Prof or Crane any chance of a new thread for after lunch?
@colin
Why do you think we need a new thread?
When a thread gets overlong it takes too long to reload.. A new thread would help.
@Dave
Oh, thanks. I thought too videos might be the cause.
O’Brien established that the defendant was not representing the community. He was not only the self-appointed NW coordinater but the entire, self-appointed Neighborhood Watch.
So there were no other residents participating in the NHW program at TRTL?
Apparently not. Fogen was the Alpha and the Omega which is why he alone made 50 calls to police.
The state pissed me off again. If O’Mara wants to drag out what following from a distance means how about ask the HOA guy if he was told they could go “in the same direction” as a possible suspect once the suspect ran into darkness?
I mean come the hell on. They had better follow up on the fact that there was not much Zimmerman could SEE AND REPORT in near total darkness with a flashlight he claimed didn’t work, SO WHY WAS HE STILL OUTSIDE OF HIS TRUCK???
Think there were a few block captains. IIRC, there was the Canadian female resident who saw him sitting in the police car wearing and beige shirt and blue jeans that one media report identified as a block captain.
Taaffe and Fogen both pretended that Taaffe was NW as well, but that was just bullshit. Taaffe would do these stunts like leave and keep his windows opened and his door unlocked so that Fogen could set up little “cops and robbers” scenes apprehending pBa-lacks coming near his house and calling the police to save his friend’s house from home invasion. It was like games six-year-olds play “pretend.” Remember Singleton slipping up and saying to Fogen, “So you want us to pretend…”
Could that be because unit owners of sensibility had spotted deadbeat renter Fogen for what he was and steered clear? I hope State calls residents who complained early on about this murdering Nosy Nellie running around with his clipboard demanding info from owners.
And that he can’t follow rules…..did not include the HOA in the plans, did not follow up to get block capts….so he thought he could ignore rule to call for help/911. Obvious facts…..
hello everyone. so glad to be here today. not much sleep yesterday for work last night…kept listening to HLN trying to keep on the trial…tired today don’t know how long I will last.
is there a way to be able to watch this blog and watch the live broadcast at the same time? thanks for any suggestions.
back reading now to catch up.
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbcnews.com/52117880/
Yes, open 2 separate browser pages.
Resize each browser page so that it occupies half of your screen.
Open the livestream link on one page and the blog on the other.
So, stucco guys “followed from a distance”, caught the guy and got praised to the whole neighborhood. Fogen didn’t follow, no one ever got caught and he never got any praise. THEN came Trayvon *a real suspicious black guy*.
Does anyone think the 5 mothers who, at some point were raising small children, do not understand the implications of that?
I’m guessing at some attachment issues (understatement). Not enough approval as a kid, fogen?
I think, and that’s only my opinion, that you both are Spot On.
I have 3 kids – 1 girl and two boys. All grown. Sort of.
@Nef05
BAM!!!! BINGO!!!!
As a scene setter, it’s important for the State to get these players and wits on early to establish a community background foundation. Building to a crescendo is an art … and key wits we are all eager to hear will be the ones jurors remember.
Surprised the state did not ask the HOA President to confirm that the burglar caught in early Feb 2012 resided at the townhouse next to RATL back gate.
The lady witness was all over Fogen.
She can visit him in prison,and teach him and his room mate how to stay safe in there cell and if they see any stranger to call the warden.
That’s a classic comment. Thank you.
This morning has been tough…and boring.
Keep ’em comin’, please. No, really.
See? It’s people like Her that have convinced GZ that he was in the right.
This case is shining a Black Flashlight on the SYG law.
Let’s talk about this “SAFE DISTANCE”
are you ready?
you sure?
ok
if you are following someone from a safe distance anfd they notice you and run, is your distance safe?
should you run after them after they have noticed you and ran off?
have you created a potentially hostile situation?
No. No. Hell yeah! 🙂
Ok class lesson #2
This safe distance thing….
Are you doing it right if you have to be concerned that the person you are following is within earshot?
shouldn’t you maintain them within “eyeshot” only for it to be considered “safe distance”?
now mind you this is earshot of a whispered conversation
There’s that word again. HOSTILE. Hey Sean, Hey Sean!
Hang on, let’s get the definitions into place.
Safe distance — safe for WHO????? you? or the guy you’re following?
Dang. Fell asleep, woke up in time for recess.
Court is in recess for lunch until 1 pm EDT.
HOA Pres cannot possibly be supportive of Z’s shenanigans. This has brought shame to the community and rendered homes there unattractive in the market.
Yeah, you can tell, he don’t like Georgie Porky.
I am sure this trial doesn’t help with their sales. I read an article saying RTL condos have become hard to sell now.
grrrr, what didn’t the state ask if the stucco guys followed in their TRUCK?!! Bet they were not on foot.
good point!!
I don’t think they could ask that of this witness, it would be hear say on his part to answer it….
That’s the same thing I was saying, “Ask Mr. O’Brien if the followed in the truck”?
Then Mr. O’Brien said they followed at a safe distance and followed him home and got his addressed. Probably followed not on foot.
They are slowly admitting that fogen racially profiled this kid
Didnt Fogen take the praise for thst arrest
Some clown on local tv here in Orlando “graded” the OS.
State = B+
Defense = C
Thanks, prof, for cutting through the BS. We won’t get info like yours from anywhere else. You are a treasure.
Ok, the Fogdoit is writing notes for MOM, let’s see how he handles that? Hmm, now he has MOM over there giving him instructions on how to question the witness!
Sounds like a whole lot of idiots follow in Florida.
SYG practically encourages it…. nutty law.
This guy doesn’t seem to like GZ. I wonder why?
I would imagine because of the settlement they had to pay out the Fulton/Martin family as a result of his fatal actions.
That’s what I was thinking.
Property values have almost certainly dropped dramatically since they became known as the place where that guy killed the unarmed kid.
It was pretty depressed just due to the housing bubble implosion. Hence Taafe still living there even though his house has been in foreclosure for over a year.
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Also because Fogen’s single act on 2/26/2012 made RTL a high-crime neighborhood when BEFORE THAT DATE it had been a low-crime neighborhood.
I totally agree!
Sad part about it is, the confessed murderer had no real invested interest like those who WERE real property owners who had to pay property taxes, homeowners insurances, etc. He was nothing more than a squatter trying to live rent free at the expense of the homeowner whose home in lived in. The homeowner fell into foreclosure so the confessed murderer decided he was not going to pay rent, if ever did.
Another leading indicator/portrait of Fogen as a cunning slimeball opportunist. If he had been paying his rent, his landlord just might have escaped foreclosure.
when are they gonna point that out to the jury!??? i really think in this context the jury will be surprised since they’re trying to portray gz as such an upstanding concerned citizen protecting his hood and investment… another home owner will relate to an owner.and i’m sure the jury believes at this time gz WAS an owner!
but the fact that he’s not an owner might irritate the home owners on the jury. they could resent gz for acting like he’s an owner and representing w.o saying so exactly that he was an owner, ( may feel lied to by omission) but not actually paying his share for the privilege.!
@TO
I think you’re right about that. I believe I read something about the homeowner working with some program that was helping homeowners in his situation keep their homes.
The confessed murderer did not go into hiding because he was afraid of some rag-tag, wannabe Black Panthers threatened him, he left because he was evicted.
Now that’s something I hadn’t heard, wow. I knew he was a renter of course, but he wasn’t paying rent? Any idea for how long? Is the homeowner on the witness list? Sure hope so, as others have stated, the jurors will really agree he’s a POS.
The defense will do everything they can to block that from being admitted due to relevance & being prejudicial. But its weird that gz emphasized to the NEN dispatcher that it was a HOME, somewhat implying that he was a homeowner. It would be really fortuitous for us if it got in.
I don’t think he was evicted yet but on March 1, 2012, when he came up empty and had no rent money, he was going to be evicted and calling the police on the landlord wouldn’t have helped him. Sunday night, 2/26/2012 was his last chance to pull a “Hail Mary” and prove to the RTL HOA that he NEEDED to be kept on in the neighborhood (probably at their own expense or as an employee of the management association) as their guard-against-suspicious-guys-victimizing-neighborhood guy. This was all calculated. He needed to be a hero before the 28th of February. He had less than $20 in the bank.
ha ha ha
he Obrien did not think NW was necessary
never ask questions you don’t know the answer to
oh damn
he is really stepping it now
Owen does not even see the need for the NEN contract
Yeah MOM was caught off guard.
If iT was tottaly seprate from the H O A
Why did they admit liability an pay out to Trayvons Parents.
Perhaps because it shouldn’t have been separate for the HOA. And because they didn’t control it.
He said he thought it was. Maybe it wasn’t, legally speaking.
They did not admit anything, if I am not mistaken.
There may have been other issues such as the lack of outside lighting.
That is a possibility and there are others; not fencing off the well trodden unofficial entrance by FT’s, street signs, locking the gate, etc.
@gbrbsb. Notice that the State has emphasized how dark it was? Kinda makes it bad for GZ to say that he “felt” Trayvon saw the gun, right?
Right. And a Kel Tec PF9 from appears to be a sort of camouflage colour, or at least darkish and matte, so even more difficult to see.
They paid because they realized there was ENORMOUS exposure; they had done plenty of things wrong, including preventing complaints ABOUT FOGEN from being dealt with by the HOA.
Oooooh, HOA Pres didn’t think they needed NW!
Oh snap! He said, I didn’t think we needed neighborhood watch.
WOW – that refutes the ongoing myth perpetuated by Fogen and embraced by every Fogen supporter.
“followed at safe distance” then he gave praise.
Why the hell is the state calling these pro-fogen witnesses???
Sometimes as you see, you gotta be patient and wait for all the questions.
The guy couldn’t have been an asshole because he didn’t get away.
: – )
Person breaking an entering lived with in the community.
An the person whom murdered a Child lived rent free in the community.
Notice that the fella didn’t once make reference to the race of the B&E perp, the stucco guys or anyone else.
OH, oh–O’Mara just drug the race out of him.
Burgess lived in the community. Fogen admitted to seeing him “on garbage days.” He was arrested and charged with three burglaries (really the ONLY THREE that had taken place in the year before 2/26/2012) before Fogen killed Trayvon Martin. And Fogen KNEW IT. HE had not been instrumental in either finding or arresting Burgess; some roofers working on one of the nearby properties identified him and called the police. He’s doing five years for burglary.
Who would have thought that foggagge would get involved as an unofficial parking warden
Surprise, surprise!
All roads are pointing to him being a vigilante, wanna be police officer in his own mind.
He loves every petty power trip, eh?
I was thinking the same thing.
Aaaaaand they had no agreement with Sanford Police for patrols or law enforcement.
Loving this HOA guy! Busted fogen. He was not ASKED by him to be large and in charge. lol
I’m lost as to what the importance of this witness is????
I stepped away for a minute. So I am a bit lost.
I don’t think you missed anything of importance.
This is weird. The State does not object enough. O’Mara makes a fool of himself objecting non-objectless.
… non-objectables
i’m suspecting guy may get an earful at lunch. he’s usually quite studious, but seems used to being second chair. gonna have to shake up that complacency!
Aaaaand George didn’t follow through in setting up block watch captains.
Because GZ is the Ultimate, Ubiquitous Sheriff. GZ is both the Captain In Chief and the CaptainS.
NOPE he didn’t need anyone else, he wanted to be the ONLY CAPTAIN!
and didn’t gz say HE was the one who saved the day and found that burglar??
The fact that he did NOT save the day and find the burglar was, in my opinion, the motive for him going out on 2/26/2012 to “bring in” a “bad guy” to save face and make himself important.
Well he DID succeed at making himself important, didn’t he?
HOA and NW completely separate entities. GZ the godfather of NW.
Key point … especially for HOA liability.
West and his damn water
must be a Florida thing
Florida is not only full off swamps its geoligicaly placed on top of millions of gallons of water contained in Aqaaferns
Underground caves full of water
And sink holes, no? Wish there was one under the defendent’s seat !
George started the blockwatch without any involvement or by your leave from the HOA.
Verrrrrry interesting.
There was a complaint to the police in Sept. 2011 about Fogen going around the neighborhood knocking on doors (knock knock, who’s there? I won’t identify myself) with a clipboard and asking folks questions and telling them he was starting up a NW program, but he failed to identify himself. It’s in the police files; I FOIA’d it in March this year.
Ask the dude why the HOA just had to pay the Martins a big chunk of change!!
what the hell does this guy have of value to say??
Is anyone else getting sick of hearing about the damn neighborhood watch???
I like that these folks are testifying. Look forward to their civil suits. HOA has paid off already, of course, but there is still much to be discovered.
Oh, President of HOA? Will we hear about complaints from residents?
Isnt that considered hearsay? If not, someone should’ve asked him about it.
President of home owners on now
West and his damn water
must be a Florida thing
and i suspect there IS something in that water, other than fluoride!
Wonder what foggagge thought about having to report to a Blahck Lady?
Love it.
She was a means to an end. And since she is such a people-pleaser, she wouldn’t have noticed a thing. She is easily hypnotized and put at ease by bullshit.
I share that observation…
@Colin she was not black she just have dark skin just like fogen mother.
or maybe she acted ‘white enough’ per gladys’ indoctrinations
struck me as mixed race, but i hate to try to identify such things
be careful , west and judge nelson is making this case a landslide . i mean lets face it , she let omara steight lie to the court ! she may b a stealth judge! i cant watch no more of the dogg and pony show! this judge sucks !!! my payers will be with the martins . every one please enjoy the rest of your day !
hang in there silk. There is a long way to go, keep the faith!
JN guarding against an overturn. When he’s convicted, she wants her sentence to stick.
Hes going to appeal if convicted. You can take it to the bank.
Ms. X~ One can only appeal IF there is an issue that can be appealed. You can’t appeal just because you didn’t like the verdict. Hence why JN is being very careful. She will NOT give MOM one single item that could be the basis of an appeal.
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Silk, withhold judgment and suspend disbelief. I am known around here as a very vociferous critic of public officials in general and judges in particular. I say let’s see how this develops; I am still betting on this being the best way to do a good trial and I am still betting on this ending in conviction.
Walking in the rain is not suspicious! Finally!
What was the damned burglar profile???
IT may be a very good prosecution “coup” to have gotten the burglar profile in there. Then it is obvious that Fogen PROFILED Trayvon Martin as a burglar. BOOM! If he profiled him (as a burglar or even as an itinerant gypsy, who cares?) then he PROFILED him, as the charging affidavit claims. The fact is that he was NOT a burglar (and even if he had been, the law against murder is not suspended) and that the profiling of him as a burglar was an element of “ill will” in that Fogen was very HOSTILE towards burglars who were “victimizing his neighborhood.”
I am sitting here CONGRATULATING BDLR and his team for bringing this out. He’s letting Dorival show how Fogen (with her encouragement) profiled Trayvon Martin before killing him.
@Malisha
I really really hate to have to disillusion you on that belief but in the case of Joe Horn, who shot two burglars in the back as they ran away, the law on murder was suspended… by the jury who acquitted him (can’t recall if SYG or self defence either way it was an unconscionable decision on their behalf at least in my opinion and I can well imagine in yours too!)
Gbrbsb- oh the Joe Horn case was even WORSE than acquittal! The Grand Jury REFUSED to indict him! There was no trial at all!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Thanks Cielo. I thought he was acquitted… we don’t have Grand Juries in the UK so I am not sure how they work. But even with my mistake imo my point still stands as from what I have read it was as if the law of murder had been suspended, because in a jury system the jurors are in effect the law.
Yes, a dreadful case, about which I seem to recall we commented before because you are from the area, no?
Imo the jury should have been indicted along with Horn! Unconscionable!
OK, I stand corrected by the absolute atrociousness of our courts, once again, BUT: ❗ ❗ ❗ ➡
Since Trayvon Martin, even if he WERE a burglar, was not burglarizing anything on 2/26/2012, even THAT defense would not work for Fogen. It would require that we all cross the line from “He was a burglar so the murder rules are suspended” to “I figured he could possibly be a burglar so the murder rules are suspended.”
Hey, if we go THERE as a society, I’m on board with it. Because there are a lot of people I figure are probably pedophile-rapists. 😆
@Malisha
I didn’t get a WP notification for your reply due to nesting rules, but while scrolling to read comments I’d missed… how could I possibly miss yours which looks like a neon sign amongst the rest. 🙂
I heard you first time and absolutely concur, I just couldn’t resist pointing out the Horn case not to have a go at the system more as a sarcasm… and it was an exception… wasn’t it ? 😉
“Exhibit A will not come in at this time.” Problem for me is if been working and don’t know what the exhibit is.
So she sustained the state’s objection?
Is this the lunch break? It’s getting late in their location.
I suspect that West just opened the door for the 911 and 311 calls to come into the trial.. It looked as if the prosecutors were playing back the questions and answers that West put forth to the Witness about the Neighborhood watch program that involved the types of calls that were required or wanted by the SPD….. Whoops!
Hmm, you could very well be right about that…. what else could they be doing?
Well with the hatred that MOM has exhibited toward BDLR it would be safe to guess it is not about where to have lunch!!
Don’t believe the hype. Many lawyers know each other & are friends or friendly acquaintances. omara is long time president of a prestigious law association. They may have friends who are friends or play golf at the same golf club. They run into each other at banquets and around town. When this case is over, they’ll go back to normal.
He opened it up when he wanted her to testify basically about how good of a NHW Coordinator Fogen was. If it’s the defenses assertion now that he did everything right then let’s hear ALL of his NEN calls. I need to fly to Florida and help the State. This stuff is elementary to me.
That brings up another point, how is it appropriate that any of his NEN calls are admissible if the defense believes the NEN calls are not important?
It seems the prosecution realizes that if they give West enough rope, he will hang all of them on the defense. This isn’t a race. JN is NOT going to jeopardize her reputation for these losers. She is being VERY careful.
I’m not worried. The state is very adept at not feeding the witness and getting all of the facts straight. There is no law against slowly or leisurely walking in the rain. Some days I suffer from chronic fatigue, and when the rain catches me, I guess I am one guilty mf.
If Guy continues to sit like a potted plant and not object when he MUST object, this case might be lost. I guess BDLR can’t take that anymore and took matters into his own hand and objected. Guy is not doing well today. And he did not do well yesterday during West’s “opening statement”.
Is that what happened? BD objected? I must have missed it…but West just went on & on. Thanks.
The only good thing about letting dumbo go on and on in the opening statement is that they can systematically refute all of his assertions thruout the trial and certainly in closing statement.
Yesterday I saw BDLR (almost) elbowing Guy to object! I think Guy could have destroyed West yesterday, but he let him off the hook – for reasons really unknown.
From the looks of what was going on during the side bar, it would look like perhaps West dropped a pile of dog poop and then stepped in it several times!
the judge has a powerful position. any time she has to pee can call a recess. everyone else has to get her permission.
Yesterday’s nonsense shouldn’t have happened. She should have told the defense to sit their bitch asses down.
She won’t. I see another KC Anthony verdict in the making.
Somebody should have profiled and shot Fogen’s dumb ass for standing in the rain for four minutes in the same spot holding a dead flashlight. (His story)
; – )
I LOVE THAT!!
She can’t. A lawyer has to object.
Other legal commentators are criticizing Guy for not raising timely objections. He allowed West to veer far off the path yesterday, during opening arguments. And just now, he just sat there as West made it sound as if it were a fact that Trayvon Martin was wandering aimlessly in the rain.
And apparently, whether by rule or custom, only the lawyer who introduces the witness can redirect or raise objections, so BDLR can’t raise objections with Wendy Dorival’s testimony.
I have to agree with them. The state has dropped the ball when it comes to objecting when they should.
I wrote this yesterday if anyone cares to go back and comb thru the 4000 comments:).
On another level, though, if the State objects and objects and objects (which it very well could, seeing how the defense is carrying on), it will look to jurors (who are not legal analysts) like the State is trying to prevent the truth from coming out. So it could be a very wise long-term decision to let the defense put on all kinds of irrelevant and even offensive crap, without making the jurors think, “What is that guy trying to hide by preventing the defense from asking that question?”
I think the “let him say whatever and then show that it’s bullshit and no normal person would believe an iota of it” technique can end up being very clever with this jury.
Malisha~ SPOT ON!
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JN seems determined the gut the prosecutions case. They have gotten to her.
It’s frustrating but I think she is being careful to make her decisions based on case law. If she ignores case law, it could be a critical error (imo) I’m beginning to believe that the rule of law isn’t just the laws themselves but how the various judges interpret the law and subsequently rule. It’ll make her decisions go for one side or the other. If she p1sses of both sides, she’s probably doing it right. 🙂
i agree, bettykath. her rulings strike me as based on law and therefore unbiased. we may not always like them, but she is doing her damnedest to avoid overturn or mistrial.
The law consists of:
(1) statutes passed by the Legislature and signed by the governor;
(2) Published decisions by the appellate courts (District Court of Appeal and Supreme Court; and
(3) Rules promulgated by the Supreme Court governing procedures inFlorida courts.
Right, Betty, to summarize the Professor: “the judge is the law”. The judge tells the legislature what its true intents are – regardless of what the legislature actually thinks. That’s the realist’s perspective (Oliver Wendell Holmes).
Re: JN. She is a panzer-judge; not a scholar by any means. She chambers a lot to figure out the right answer to what should be simple question for someone of her age and experience on the bench. I think the DCA has rattled her into being too careful and not being herself. After all “this is a high profile case” to which different rules must apply. This trial is not going well the way it should. I pray that I am very, very wrong.
I think the State was smart to call her and call her early …. get her out of the way. She won’t be prominent when jury starts mulling.
I believe Dorival will be another defendant when Crump’s lawsuit does get filed. Keep talking, woman. Show how you were the enabler. Thasss right, keep on flappin jaw, dummy.
Good point. We have a very long way to go.
Now what?
I was wondering the same thing…. what are they doing?
okay which suspicious person hit George Zimmerman because he looks like he has black eyes?
Dorival is just lined up and siding with the SPD because she is one of them; she’s protecting her buddies. It will not ultimately matter whether Dorival interprets “Do not follow” and “Do not approach” as WRITTEN in the NW guidelines to mean, “well just do what you think is right.” It will not ultimately matter that she still gets a bit moist for SuperFogen; the issue does not ride on “do not miscalculate while you are patrolling,” but on “do not murder.”
Since the defense brought up what Fogen was supposed to do to “help” the police, however, I would think that ALL HIS PRIOR CALLS WERE VERY RELEVANT to whether or not his killing Trayvon Martin was part and parcel of that HELP he was rendering to the POLICE.
Exactly! She can’t go home if she doesn’t
And if you are correct, the Neighborhood Watch/PD connection should be made more clear. I think I had always thought it was some sort of non-profit, service kind of thing; never really thought about it.
Malisha, I just love your perception. I immediately picked up on that Wendy was crushing on Fogen.
Can I first say, “eeeeewww”.
Then , that makes perfect sense to me, Malisha. Hopefully, that’s what Mantei is saying to the judge, while he’s up there.
would you say West is a stealth attorney?
We can only hope 🙂
How do you know if someone is walking in the rain without a purpose? She doesn’t make sense…come on Mantei clear this up.
I like to shop while its raining, stores less crowded. Guess that means I’m a shoplifter.??
“Walking with a purpose” = “walking in a way and in a place that satisfies someone else who has the right to decide what you may or may not do, by virtue of his or her authority.”
If you’re pBa-lack and you are walking with a purpose that is all your own, someone like Fogen gets to PROFILE you to say that your purpose (“up to no good”) is wrong and so they get to kill you. That’s democracy in action as per the Second Amendment.
She makes no sense and Trayvon called Chad and said he was on his way home so the kid had a purpose…still we get to say there is not purpose…some people like walking in the rain their purpose is to enjoy themselves and I’ve seen some parents that allow their children to play in rain if it’s not a thunder storm..way too subjective should be only if you see them attempting a crime testing car doors, looking in windows, checking the doors of neighbors that are not home….she is taking up for Zimmerman.
She has gone beyond what her own material says. She has said her influence is LIMITED to what the material says as shes not a police officer now West is questioning her as if shes the police.
Did West just ask Wendy about emails? He’s such a dumb ass because those emails will open the door to the NEN calls they don’t want admitted into evidence..
Huh, Maybe that’s what they’re arguing about…What a mess.
I’m losing faith in the state. If they do not cross examine her about this “burglay profile” she and West mentioned. What is the established protocol to determine a burglar, which is what Zimmerman concluded Martin was? Zimmerman couldn’t accept that patrol position because he’s a felon.
Fogen was just a misdemeanor, not a felon, at that time. The corruption in the courts means if you assault an officer while white, it’s a misdemeanor. If you assault a white officer while pBa-lack, of course, it’s a threat and he gets to kill you with a “Good Shoot.” It may even be a terrorist threat!
The issue is that you don’t get to kill people who fit ANY sort of profile.
OK, but the gov of Florida is a felon. It doesn’t stop some people’s show for some reason.
I’m your homie/neighbor! 77088! I’ll sing you a Florida song about it. “Its a small world after all, its a small world after all, its a small world after all, its a small, small world.” 🙂
Ms. X and TashaTexas~ Does 77089 sound familiar? Yes, it’s a VERY small world!
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hay everyone. please forgive for my statement , judge nelson is blowing this case , slowly . like the the frye hearing , the defense did not state any case law. its like she is baby sitting west. the defense is streight ignorant. and clowns. judge nelson was classified as a no non sense judge . judge nelson is soft. although , i would like to see state attorney guy run the show . thats the flavor this case needs!!!!!!!!!
Nothing to forgive…JN make me cringe with her decisions. I too agree that she allow the defense to get away with way too much.
I fully expect her to come back tomorrow and say that the state can’t enter those tapes. It’s like they have some magic powder over her.
Popping my head in…what is the side bar about?
Walking in the rain is not suspicious. People write songs about it.
Skipping in the rain is even less suspicious.
I wonder if that Hannity interview where GZ changed his story about Trayvon running to skipping will be shown in court?
Storm it looks like you are just a little partial to rain. lol!
johnnie ray, singer, songwriter
And Chief Billy said he never saw that letter.
I hope the Fulton/Martin family sue the shit out of the city of Sanford… Because according to Ms. Dorvil they trained residents to suspect everything and everyone they do not know… the SPD encourages parinoia!
I hope the Prosecution presents a witness from the National NHW group.
I totally agree. How wreck-less can you be!
Now walking in the rain is suspicious! How can someone decide if another is walking with “purpose”. This is bullshit!
Thinking someone would want to burglarize a home on a rainy Sunday evening at 7 p.m. when most residents are at home is paranoia. I would love to see GZ’s mental health records.
I’m sure it would be interesting to enter that chamber of horrors.. Equally as scary is him being aquitted and going back into society with his gun to kill again. His mind & his family members will tell him he was vindicated and in the right. Why wouldn’t he do it again? Now he would be 10x as paranoid and see every slight, real or imagined, as a death threat. Every Black person who looks at him would be a suspect in his warped little racist mind. It would be another murder waiting to happen.
Exactly.
It is easier to see if a person is walking without a “purpose”, i.e. if they are going round in circles as West first used for his example, or walking up and down the same stretch, none of which applies to Trayvon who was moving from A to B, but how does someone “know” if they are walking WITH a “purpose”.
GZ described Trayvon in the NEN as “looking at houses”. Only later did he add “looking into houses”. Houses are what you see while walking down such a street or are we supposed to walk looking at the pavement… I was told not to look down at the pavement when little.
In the dark if Trayvon had been looking “into houses”, or “in windows” any NW would have most certainly told that to a NEN OP as the most important bit. He immediately told NEN Trayvon was walking towards him, staring, running but not that he was trespassing on front lawns and peering through windows.
I hope Mantai or Guy as a redirect
She is legitimizing Zimmerman’s profiling of Trayvon
She sure is, wtf, it was a bad call calling her as a witness!
The State has a very linear theory of the crime and is dropping all the pebbles to lead th jurors to the water
the defense would have called her anyway
They can clean up her mess on redirect
West lead her on questioning and they should have objected
I think they will.
Oops it just came out, Fogen’s letter praising her. That’s why she’s favorable to him.
She is also associated with law enforcement (the people who tried to let fogen off the hook) and it sounds like she recently got promoted
but consider the profile from the calls: young Black youth/men.
It was in cross that the civilian patrol was brought up. If he applied and was turned down, there may be a witness to confirm.
well she testified that he turned it down
i surmise the state will investigate, if they haven’t already, why someone of his psych profile and professional interest would turn that down
yup – problematic witness, to be sure
He did not attend citizen patrol but he patroled anyway with his lights off…will this come out?
Hope I never get caught in a pop up shower.
lol. you’re standing around nakkid and this shower pops up from the ground surrounding you with water. sorry, but that’s the image. (conference at the bench)
Or teenagers hiding from creeping old men.
mantei has some work to do to rehab this witness.
I think he’s up to the job. Wit’s in a tight spot, jobwise … how can she volunteer that a chunk of the people she “trains” are stupid, paranoid or both?
i hope so — this witness just verified crime wave, stated that it is ok to follow suspicious persons ‘at a distance’, and to defend if ‘attacked’. that’s gonna take some work – hope it does (work, that is).
Not knowing someone is suspicious??! WTF get this woman off the stand!
I know, the state has work to do with this one.
So if my nephews visit or cousins call the police because you don’t know them.
Is this a prosecution witness? Unbelievable. Maybe the fix is in.
i think west just opened the *door* for some important points… w this witness…
If I’m thinking what you are: since West is bragging on fogen doesn’t that open the door to tell the jurors his bad behavior?
i’m thinking that too.. but i don’t know..cas i’m just a decorator!
there are some lawyers on here tho!
I am so happy to see that Ronald Fulton was able to make it to the trial!
Me too, and makes me sad he lost his buddy and helper. I hope the jurors know who he is.
Who is Ronald Fulton?
His disabled uncle, from whom Trayvon got his interest in aeronautics. His uncle worked in the field, before he became disabled and Trayvon spent a lot of time with him.
Thank you, Nef!
This trial is not going to be over in 4 weeks.
Yeah I just realized that the State alone still has over 200 witnesses.
200 on the witness list. They don’t have to call each and every one.
we need Guy to explain why GZ was rejected by the citizen patrol!
he needs to ask about the NO PATROLLING on NM especially while armed!
Absolutely, and I thought there was some way they were not talking about the same things, as citizens/and NW responsibilities…confused conversation.
I’m hoping he will too.
She didn’t say GZ was rejected for “Citizen Patrol” she said she had encouraged him or asked him or something like that to join the CP but he said he didn’t want to.
yes she said that. i’m talking about before her, he apparently applied for and was rejected for Citizen patrol program..maybe before she was in charge or in another area,
Ah, now I understand. I understood he had applied be a policeman in some other place, and been rejected, I didn’t realise that was CP, or maybe I’m getting this wrong and he had applied to both police and CP and been rejected by both ?
both!
Well, then it’s clear they didn’t want him, and that’s obviously why he told Doroval he didn’t want to apply.
This witness seems pro-Fogen to me.
Yes. She seems like a “pleaser.”
She is pro-fogen. No doubt about that. GZ is smiling.
If you see this again sorry. .. I’m trying to figure my phone out.
This non-witness needs to step down. Fogen’s NW has nothing to do with the murder.
It’s a further attempt by the defense to blame someone else for this monster’s actions. Wendy didn’t tell him he couldn’t carry a gun, blah blah blah.
Exactly!
I respectfully disagree. I think the prosecution is painting him as a wanna be, vigilante police officer, which is what he was. He felt he was an extension of actual law enforcement and created situations where he could be that, since he was unable to become an officer by legitimate means.
You didn’t mention the Knock Knock Joke …..You’ve never used one in court ?? So West would be the exception….Hmmmm ??
background check=no citizens on patrol
citizens on patrol can not carry guns=do not want by Zimmerman
Did West open the door?
He said “no” because he wouldn’t have passed the background check.
@Sophia33.
BINGO!
The jury might perceive West’s behavior in challenging Judge Nelson after she has ruled, as a reflection on GZ’s character. Arguing with authority or doing what you want anyway does not give a good impression to the jury.
Yep. And they seem disorganized.
Disrespecting a female judge in front of an all female jury has to be the height of folly. During their frequent exiles to the jury room while objections and motions are being argued, jurors aren’t supposed to discuss the case but they can and do discuss things like the lawyers’ demeanor and the jury selection process. There must be some interesting discussions happening
“She was frightened by it”
“was she very scared?”
I think that’s what she meant
‘captain obvious’ to the rescue!
(tomorrow he’ll wear his underpants on the outside of his suit)
Look at West. He wants to do things his way. He has a problem with the woman judge. He is so disgusting!
i’m glad west brought this up. i hope Guy talks about the exact nature of those *several* burglaries!
weren’t there like 3 actually. and one or two who was cooper wire in an empty home?
Copper tubin on a construction site. Not locked, just sitting there.
but that was one of several burglaries??
and a stolen bike..
Leave lights on? Hmm pretty dark on dog walk no one left lights on? If my neighborhood were being robbed often I would do as they suggest.
@disappointed.
Where I live is next to a dense wooded area. No street lights. Homeowners are instructed to keep their porch and sidewalk lights on at night to indicate they are home. If the cops roll by and see lights on inside, but not outside, they investigate.
i would be installing my own motion sensor flood lights.
What is West going on about?
So are we to believe the burglars walked to the property and entered where there was no fence? Everyday occurrence seeing someone carrying a stolen tv away. No get away car, just get away feet.
I believe Malisha already addressed this. It wasn’t as bad as Fogen made it out to be,
George was a renter there. not a homeowner. HOA concerns? please!
A renter who wasn’t even paying his rent!
Why didn’t the owner evict him?
The homeowner of Fogen’s home was the person on whom Fogen called the police. I would think that the HOA would be concerned that they were being blocked from collecting rent by renters calling the police on them for trying to collect it! Instead the stupid HOA acted like someone who was acting unlawfully towards ONE OF THEM was properly in charge of the “law and order” branch of their organization. How stupid is that?
ANSWER: Stupid enough to make it cost them over a million dollars.
actually, it cost their insurance company over a million dollars. makes a difference whose pocket it comes out of.
FYI, HOAs don’t collect rent. HOA management collects quarterly maintenance from unit owners for insurance, common grounds and pool maintenance, etc. It’s up to the unit owner to collect monthly rent for a rental occupant.
I feel like they are going to keep insinuating that Fogen did not understand this or that. Now if he is that mentally challenged he should NOT be able to have a concealed weapon permit. Last thing we need is another mentally challenged person with a gun.
He’s trying to establish fogen as a de facto member of the force.
“What you want THEM to do for YOU, AS A MEMBER OF THE SPD”.
He’s calling “her” a member of the SPD – but the “do for you” and “a member of the SPD” (as regarding her authority to deputize) is a verbal cue.
thing is she has already told him what she wants him to do for her-EYES AND EARS
Yes, she did. What he did is a subliminal verbal cue, by implication. West does it a lot. He says, without coming out and actually saying it, that he had some authority – through Dorival.
See he just did it again, by the *they all funnel their concerns through him, to you*, and the “that’s what he was *supposed* to do”. That one was a little more overt.
I think he is trying to establish that Z’s calls were appropriate. Also managed to lead her into an almost endorsement that walking in the rain was suspicious behavior. If there was no “purpose” for it.
lurker~ I guess getting home has no purpose. What an ignorant bitch she is!
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How do they know a person who’s walking don’t have purpose? WTF! Everybody don’t have drive.. These people are crazy! That town is dangerous for black people PERIOD!
Move along….. this witness isn’t all that important, imo… West rambling again…. what is he even talking about?
He doesn’t even know.
Damn! West sounds like he’s on speed today.
guess someone spoke to him
why is he just rehashing what the state already asked
That’s nasty
🙂
Mantei is such a tease… I SEE you!!! Loving this guy strategy…
ok what happened with the 911 calls??? please tell me JN allowed
She wants to study the case law and will make her ruling later.
OMG! this is crazy, but not hopeless.yet.
I’m losing faith in JN again.
@Woow! Presiding over a criminal case is not easy. One of the things that judicial reformers often say is that because judges interpret the law, it makes proceedings longer and contentious.
Judge Nelson has the written law, and when the two sides are arguing interpretation, she must depend on case law to render a decision that will not be overturned. Her job is not easy.
Thanks @Xena I will give her the benefit of the doubt. My tummy is in knots b/c I do not want to see this murder get off. If he does, I feel more people who think like him will take this to mean they can murder our children and get away with it.
I am a securities and corporate person. Never did like criminal or family law and would not work for an attorney who practiced either. In criminal your clients lie to you and family the fighting spouses and meddling family was too much for me.
@Woow!
I only assisted an attorney on one criminal case. However, I am acquainted with an attorney who serves as a public defender in federal criminal cases. He shares very interesting stories. There is also a county judge that presides in criminal cases who I know, and I would not want to be in his shoes. The bulk of my experience has been assisting attorneys in tort cases.
They do the same in civil also in the sense of not giving all the facts. Before bankruptcy law was reformed, it was a mess with people thinking they did not need to tell their attorney everything.
Family courts are a mess with people mudslinging. People take things much too personally and vindictively. Additionally, they watch too much court tv such as Divorce Court and think that winning means humiliating the other party more than they can be humiliated.
Xena says above
xena — i soooooo agree with this statement. i have no doubt that JN is doing all in her power to avoid a mistrial or grounds for appeal. i know people get disappointed with some of her decisions, but overall, i think she has been fair in what must be miserable conditions. i wish that we could all take this into account and as woow says give her the benefit of the doubt.
people, this is a long hard road, with ups and downs on both sides. just when you think she is being unfair to the prosecution — take a deep breath and think of who is sitting all alone in that courtroom, without wife or family. and then, remember who is there for trayvon. keep it real, folks.
They seem to have his medication better regulated today. Dozing less.
Oops–reply above should have gone here.
I wish he would ask her to describe what kind of activity is considered “suspicious”
Less of Don West droning on.
Why did George stand up…does he think he’s at a GZ roast.
Wendy Dorival was asked to identify him and hesitated on the color of Fogen’s suit so he stood up, and then was asked if the person in question was standing up, said yes, and so the identification was established.
Ok
Did you see that “Not To Be A Vigilante Police” page in the powerpoint presentation?
well gee … why isn’t o’mara objecting to introduction of past ‘good’ acts of the defendant being NHW coordinator?
(maybe we can sit back and wait for it)
Xxx
The Supreme Court just struck down section 4 of the Voting Rights Act.
I’m heartbroken, especially after all the voter suppression from recent elections
EdgySF~ Especially here in Texas.
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mantei sounds like kevin costner
He does!!
HER COMES THE EMAIL ABOUT THE CURB SIDE TRASH PROWLER!!!
GZlegalcase uploaded the timeline they used yesterday. I am also going to post it on yesterday’s day 1 post as it pertains to that day so we can find it in the future if needed. It could be a good idea to follow that system as much as possible as it may be easier to find.
Thank you for your diligence
gonna skip looking at it though
De nada Tzar, my diligence consisted of checking out TL for their conclusions on yesterday’s openings and finding the link there.
I am tired of th defense’s spin and lies
I am avoiding their docs for the next few days
PS: Oh God West is offering water again
And now they’re murmuring together… I wonder how West gets wise that MOM has something to add or GZ ?
Why did JN stop Ramona’s testimony?
Because she constantly gets outwitted by O’Mara.
Wendy Dorival up now.
For those who don’t know:
Jennifer Lauer is W11
John Good is W6
Jayne Surdyka is W18
thanks!
Thanks!
Probably about giving out the witnesses telephone numbers.
Just a couple quick observations. Zimmerman looks heavily medicated. He is definitely on some sort of prescription drug(s). I don’t see how he could ever be expected to testify in that condition. I don’t think he will take the stand. And after listening to some of his other 911 calls, he was definitely drunk or stoned on the night he murdered Trayvon Martin. You can hear him slurring and such.
Has been for awhile now,probably where the weight gain comes from.
It’s going to take 6 months with O’Mara objecting to every other word.
I’m very disappointed with JN after this morning. How the hell is she going to review this info and see if its admissible when she has already admitted it, the defense didn’t object to it and the defense has had the information for months. I do not see how a judge can make something already admitted into evidence and heard by the jury, inadmissible.
I’m also disappointed that the state didn’t object to the defenses foolishness in front of the jury if for no other reason than to tell them why the evidence is admissible.
Exactly!
The defense doesn’t like Ms. Rumph exactly because they cannot cross examine her. If JN doesn’t allow those previous calls I will start calling this a fix.
Who did fogen just shake his head in acknowledgement to? Was it a jury member?
Not so friendly conversation between BLDR and O’Mara
Could you tell what was going on?
No but no friendly smileing faces.
Damn, I missed it!
I hope Taaffe testifies so that the prosecution could ask him about his statement that “Zimmerman had had enough and wasn’t gonna take it anymore”. With these calls, that statement by Taafee and the 911 calls, the prosecution will have established malice.
And also the interview he gave stating the confessed murderer should not have a gun while on watch duty.
Taffee is a wild card as a testifier
he seems perfectly willing to make a fool of or incriminate himself if he thinks he can sabotage the prosecution
I also hope they ask him about the message the confessed murderer left on his answering machine.
Wonder if Taaffee’s daughter is going to be called. I didn’t see her name on the witness list.
I’d be very surprised if they call Taaffe at all. He was not there. Anything GZ told him is inadmissible hearsay. His opinions ar3e also not evidence, unless and until character witnesses get called, which may not happen at all.
The only way he’d qualify as a witness is if, for instance, GZ rang him after the shooting AND he did something as a result, eg move the truck. He’d be allowed to say he got a call, NOT what the conversation was, and then allowed to say what HE DID.
The biggest problem for the defense is not that they stumble and bumble, but that they lost credibility in the opening statements, when they treated the jury to confusing and meaningless idiosyncratic submissions.
That has led the jury to believe that the defense will say and do anything, no matter how little sense it makes, in the effort to cast doubt. That is not a good thing to have a jury thinking about your submissions. In other words, whatever the defense submits that seems complex, the jury will simply dismiss as more idiosyncratic bs!
Dang, as I sit here and listen to these NEN calls I realize I live in ignorance. In my world and neighborhood people are just that people. So what if their skin is darker than mine? Racism is alive and well and I thought things were better than they were in the 60s when I was a kid.
I am sorry to all of my friends here of color for the ignorance you live in/with because people can’t see you as an equal. You are welcome to be my neighbor any day. You will be safe and so will your children.
Having people like you in the world who are willing to see and stand with us gives me a lot of hope.
sophia — in this crowd, you are surrounded by us … there’s a reason why those of us with pale skin color are here and signed that petition in the first place. just want you to know you are in good company here.
*Hugs* having people like you gives us all hope .. I LOVE YOU AND IT AINT NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Thank you…
For some it is better, but it is far, far, far from what it should be. The SCOTUS just made it worse.
Agreed!
Is it me or did JN seem a little subdued/disturbed after listening to those calls?
I thought so. The identical nature of the calls is compelling.
Thanks for reinforcing my take … a compelling, creepy pattern. Most notable that he had the clubhouse address at the ready in most calls, but was quite coy on an address on the murder night.
I saw that too
Would it be fair for the Prosecution to wait until the jury was back in the court room and the witness was seated to request that the witness be excused until it is established whether she can testify about other calls to the Sanford police dept? Dirty pool? Turn about on the defense?
Interestingly, IIRC, the phone logs indicate these frequent calls about AA un-subs did not start until the confessed murderer moved into RATL.
Prior to moving there, the calls involved people cutting him off in traffic, pot holes, etc,
I think it was the Sheriff’s dept. that said they never received any calls when Frank Taaffe was NHW. In fact, even Taaffee said the confessed murderer should have never had a gun on him while doing NHW.
I despise Frank Taaffe. He’s is one racist fool.
Just surprised that he outted his bff about the gun. I just hope they show the interview he gave, and ask him about it.
Me too. Did you see him on HLN last night? He was so racist! SMACK!
I missed the hearing this morning. I am dying with anticipation to know what happened. Is JN letting the 911 records come in?
She’s reviewing stuff now.
Listening to the series of 911 calls reminds me of Munchausen Syndrome. Exagerating symptoms to get attention.
Deborah, I noticed the same thing, especially on the 2/26/12 NEN call.
Sean, like most dispatchers, are trained to be somewhat detached from the emotions of the caller. Seems like the confessed murderer deliberately escalated the description of what was actually happening.
IOW, close to the end he says, “Now he’s coming towards me” trying to give the impression there’s was the possibility he might be attack since he had his hands in his waisteband. When in fact, Trayvon may have been coming in his direction in an attempt to get home.
1. Just looking around
2. I don’t know what his deal is
3. He looks like he’s on drugs or something,
4. He’s looking at me.
5. Got his hands in his waisteband (a gun, I suppose)
6. Now he’s coming towards me
Prepared scripts.
Thank you, Sleuth. Good wrap up.
Good point Sleuth. He laid his script right on Trayvon and profiled his otherwise unsuspicious actions.
Even though he had his hand in his waistband, GZ said that he was unarmed. HE KNEW he was unarmed.
When, in fact, Trayvon may not have done ANYTHING Fogen says he did, not even “coming in his direction” for any reason. Fogen was LYING and making up a story to try to sell the idea that Trayvon was suspicious and dangerous.
Munchausen is actually a very good analogy. Making up problems to try to get attention. Perhaps women do it (very very rarely, I might add) with medical false alarms, to get attention but perhaps men more often do it with law enforcement false alarms, also to get attention.
Very interesting idea. Goodness knows fogen’s mental issues seem to overlap a variety of comorbid diagnoses.
Yup
“Munchausen by Proxy”
No proxy there.
He believes he is being victimized; he’s the victim.
but he uses proxies to get attention (AAs)
more importantly he harms proxies to get attention
Interesting that Fogen volunteers in the last call that his neighbor whose house he was concerned about was caucasian.
Skin color a very, very big deal to Fogen and his racists family.
For some reason, I always sort of assumed that mixed race families were color blind. Guess I’m wrong.
Zimmerman learned to hate from his parents. They instilled it in him.
In fact it sounds like the State wants to show that GZ did it about well at previous instances and made a series of mistakes on Feb. 26th. In previous/Feb26th instances: 1) He doesn’t/do curse, 2) He knows/doesn’t know the address of the clubhouse, 3) He remembers the name of a street outside the complex/doesn’t remember Twin Trees, 4) He doesn’t follow the suspect/He follows TM
The address knowledge is key
I believe the killer was intoxicated the night he murdered trayvon. It is a tragedy that the killer was not tox screened.
When they first released the call publicly, I know that was the discussion at the time. Most thought he was slurring his words and wondered why he was never tested.
I missed it – why the recess?
The state wasn’t quite ready.
State asked…10 min break.
Where’s the one about the 7 year old kid who is walking by himself toward a school? Did I miss it or did they not play it?
This parade of calls sets a pattern that the world is now hearing, perhaps for the first time.
What will the Duh-fense do about the mass emails fogen sent out to residents?
For example, check this one out about an African American “PROWLER” stealing disgarded furniture sat out on the curb the evening before trash collection.. sent by zimmerman on 2/03/2012~>
“Lasnight an attempted break in occured in
our neighborhood. A LATE TEENAGED AFRICAN-AMERICAN male wearing a bomber-style leather coat, a leather winter hat with ear flaps and printed pajama pants was seen prowling between the 1300 and 1400 buildings at approximately 8:30pm. The SUSPECT even attempted to decieve witnesses by standing in the victims front yard smoking to give the false impression that he was the resident. Fortunately the the resident was known to the eyewitness and the SUSPECT was not related to the resident. The police were notified and arrived promptly; however, the SUSPECT eluded police. Unfourtunately, one of the residents in the 1400 building had left visible open access to to his home, had no lights on and no car in the driveway. It appeared the visible open access intrested the supect as an “easy target”. As Wendy Dorival told us in the annual meeting, most burglaries occur as crimes of oppurtunity. This same SUSPECT has been seen taking disgarded furniture placed on the curb on the evening prior to trash collection day. As you are aware last night was prior to trash collecton this morning. Please always remain alert particularly the evening prior to trash collection day for any suspicious persons.. Most importantly, keep your home secured at all times and if possible with an occupied appearance To summerize, the suspect is a late teenaged African-American male approximately 5 feet 10 inches tall and is not believed to be a resident of the neighborhood. If he or any other suspicious persons are seen do not hesitate to call Sanford police non-emergency or if you see a crime in progress dial 911″
“Beware! There’s always a chance that an AA male might steal your trash!”
The “suspect” is just a dumpster driver, for crissake. Many years ago my mother saw that someone in the neighborhood had put out an old-style bathtub for one of those big item trash pickups you have to request. She asked if she could have it — she might have even paid something for it as a courtesy. She brought it home, refinished and refitted it, built a semi-circle platform in the master bedroom, re-carpeted, did all the plumbing, and still enjoys it to this day.
Oh wait, she’s white. Never mind.
I have a wicker chair (used as a plant stand) on my front stoop. Picked it up off swale in my neighborhood the night before bulk trash pick-up. Does this make me a “suspect”?
Are you pba-lack?
Fogen is just pissed that the “suspect” got to it first.
Seriously I don’t consider it “stealing” when I put out discarded furniture or appliances. More power to someone else who could use it or recycle it. I’ve been know to hit the brakes on a set of crutches sitting along side the trashcan of a home.
That’s how my dad furnished our house. He called it “Shopping the Curbside Sales.” It’s a tradition I’ve kept up.
Cranse-Station is very good at it. I hope she writes a book about the ins-and-outs of dumpster diving.
Dave, beats going to Target. Chances much better for one-of-a-kind.
Did y’all notice this “Fortunately, the resident was known to the eyewitness and the SUSPECT was not related to the resident”
Fogen was the freaking EYEWITNESS who called police… We just heard his 911 call for this email… If JN don’t allow those NEN calls her ass is suspect..
….And I found a BEAUTIFUL dining table on the curb.. From trash to TREASURE..
Definitely call police and notify neighbors to be on the lookout for “trash pickers.” They’re such dangerous criminals.
That’s just nuts. People in my neighborhood are welcome to take any furniture or items discarded – in fact, people often leave everything at their curb rather than make a trip to a charity shop.
Most townhome communities like this one have a central dumpster for garbage and not individual curb side service.
Don’t want to approach him? White guy has no black friends? Do you know all his friends? What a douche bag.
So according to Fogen every black male was suspicious and didn’t belong in the neighborhood.
yup
That is certainly how it seems
what a paranoid nut case!!
You would think GZ would be embarrassed. What a goon.
Why did he not knock on neighbors door to them the garage door was open?
no kidding! it’s what we do on our cul-de-sac. not too hard to take a little walk in the evening, knock on the door and say howdy to your neighbor.
oh the vicious garage door open ploy, they get you every time!
O’Mara has no answers to those pass NEN calls,and he know it make fogen look crazy which we know he is.
What kind of person calls police like this over people walking around?! What a wacko!
“They typically run away, quickly.” BAM!
Run away quickly. LMAO normally running is a “quick” sport.
There is NO way these can’t be relevant.
I hope fogens wearing a diaper, because it looks like he just shit himself….
We need to get this scum off the street. Unless he is convicted no young black male is safe.
Well this certainly shows his obsession with black males.
I wouldn’t place bets on safety of white males with this gun-toting turkey on the streets.
Until now, it had never occurred to me to wonder about race of the undercover cop Fogen attacked … or race of the woman he threw across the room at the bar when he was a bouncer (which led to his firing.)
Is he an equal opportunity attacker, or does he just go for the balaacks?
Fogen sounds out of breath on this call.
He was probably following, it was reported in the media that he has a habit of following.
Dershowitz last night said that Zimmerman should have stood up in court and demanded a mistrial after West made that horrible joke. LOL!!!
Can’t say that I disagree LOL
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! He pretends he really thinks Fogen can THINK? Fogen would only be able to stand up and demand a mistrial because the JURORS DID NOT LAUGH! He’d call them all self-hating white racists.
JN needs to make sure all i’s are dotted and T’s are crossed… No room for the defense to cry foul
O’Mara gives the impression that he’s not previously listened to GZ’s previous NEN calls.
MOM did not prepare for this trial.
They didn’t believe they had to evaluate EVIDENCE to prepare for trial; they thought all they had to do to prepare was to smear Trayvon Martin and attack witnesses.
MOM did what he used to do for his Divorce Cases; smear, smear, smear. THAT doesn’t work in criminal cases.
That’s because he’s been getting his strategy from folks who swing from tree limb to tree limb. You know the folks over there who don’t know how to interpret evidence. 🙂
I sure hope the Fulton/Martin family have security. The cray-cray’s are coming out full force.
Possibly. I hope they are safe.
But, they are not making a big public display of it like some that we know.
And neither is the MSM. Wonder why?
“These calls are relevant. How the defense chooses to spin them is not.”
You go Mantai.
JN so what if O’Mara suggested that you listen to the tapes.
How the defense spins it is not (relevant). Strong ending!!
Good morning everyone. I see O’Mara is all over the place, getting his whining in early, today. Making a cup of tea, and catching up. Did anyone broach the subject of a new page after lunch, with C-S or the Prof?
Anybody notice, all the wide smiling from that last 2 weeks have left the confessed murderers face?
defence was argueing that foggagge was nieve as to the dispatchers instructions.
He was very aware of proceadure
O’Mara trying to get the dispatcher to agree Fogen innocently thought he should follow may be just what the judge needs to rule for the prosecution.
on a previous NEN call, dispatch also told him not to follow and he complied and they got away…..temporary, the SPD eventually caught them. But it would show that he knew what the dispatcher meant.
I can’t help but wonder what the jury is thinking as they wait…. and wait….. and wait… what they do know is they were asked to leave yesterday after Fogen’s defense wanted things OUT. Nobody is going to think Fogen’s defense is trying to keep out “prior good acts”.
Agreed.
I think the States argument is easier to follow while the defense is just throwing things out there because they didn’t pick up on it sooner because they were too busy researching frivolous motions now the trial is here and their pants are down.
Agreed.
That’s because the defense is too busy running with those monkeys in trees, swinging from limb to limb, and doxing folks.
You go Gut
Mantei’s getting a little PO’ed at MOM.
He needs to take a number and stand in line. I don’t think the judge is all that please with him either.
Mantai argued this very well.
“any kids?”
“No … pause not yet … thank goodness.” [supposed to give the idea that if he had kids his poor wife would be even more of a mess now that there is all this fuss over one dead Pba-lack]
Big … sign … [remember his big sighs are lie-markers]
My take on this: He wanted Shellie to have kids and she wouldn’t. He wanted to advance in front of Junior in the family hierarchy but he couldn’t. Only sisters, who bore the names of their husbands, would end up “giving” the family children. HE wanted at least one kid to surpass brother Junior in the parents’ eyes. Lie, sigh.
Hey he asked his ex-fiance to be his baby mama according to her. I remember reading that in the evidence dump…such a devoted husband…say’s a lot about his character.
Groupon should offer sterility clinic packages for such families.
LOL!
That’s what I said yesterday, Mr. Mantai was attempting to establish a pattern of certain acts, behavior.
Past NEN/911 calls showing “we’ve been having break-ins” and “they always get away” is relevant to Fogen’s state of mind in THIS case. Arguing “past bad acts” when the issue is “state of mind” obfuscates the point. MOM, your spidey sense should tell you to have a seat.
Mantai is actually smart
I find that MUCH more attractive than his outside looks. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but look-wise he just doesn’t do it for me, but dang he is good!!!
He has a good fund of working knowledge and is clear in his thinking and most importantly it all translates succinctly in his expression.
and as I watch now he is putting a little physical mustard on his presentation as well, quite the perfect accentuation and not overdone like O’Mara with his gattdamn hands.
Mantai will go far professionally
I think he is adorable!
I agree. He is way smarter than he looks.
thease prior good acts were call made only on Blahck Kids an males.
Jesus!!!! STFU already O’Mara
MOM thinks the prosecution is “Woefully inadequate”?
Who’s believing that one?
I’m sick of him already and it’s only 6:22 here.
West coast here too.
Yesterday, I took my bath at 5:00, for gosh sakes.
Today, I’m stinking up the joint.
I think MOM is Woefully ignorant. But hey that is just my opinion.
He said that out loud in court?
If there prior goog acts surely it benefits your client
Omara want Judge Nelson to relax the rules. Judge Nelson knows that is all she has to keep that rabid dog on a leash are the rules of law. If she does he’ll twist every rule out of context and will fight til he gets what he wants. Good for her, not relaxing legal rules in order to keep control of her Court.
Rabid Dog = O’mara
M O M says the State has nothing is he on drugs as well?
Yep.
I’m beginning to think O’Mara’s tactic is to ramble on and on until a person agrees just to get you to STFU! Good Lord this man’s voice grates on my nerves big time!
He is bumbling around.
If it’s a prior good act, then why don’t you want it in????
EXACTLY!
Exactly. It’s not prior “good acts”. It shows his client is a harassing, delusional PSYCHO
That’s right!
O’mara is a bumbling, unprepared attorney has confused himself. Showing how much work he put into defending this case. All he cared about was scamming supporters by smearing Trayvon to get mo’ money in defense fund.
He knew last year about the tapes and didn’t take the time to even listen to them and now like a fool using all the wrong words making for a weak azz argument. let him keep doing that.
The put a lot of time into investigating the private lives of prospective jurors as well.
The Jury has been sitting back there 20 minutes. They are going to get tired of this, they will want to go home eventually.
Jury will get used to it … bringing paperbacks, manicure tools, working on Christmas lists for 2015.
Follow.
I like how O’Mara is painting profiling as good behavior.
Oh God! He’s bringing up a wifebeating case!
Don’t waste my time. Go through the prior cases.
From this point on watch, Omar will try to object more than necessary to keep State from introducing factual evidence proving Fogen is not innocent, naive, but in fact a habitual harassing vigilante focused on black children and young black men.
The State will be prepared from now on with cases to support their evidence.
Ya’ll remember when detective singleton(?) asked Fogen if he had any kids? Fogen responded ‘No Thank goodness’
Now he is standing there looking like a idiot.
This bumbling idiot should not win this argument,
May none of the Z-offspring ever breed. Thinning of the herd makes the world a safer place.
I realize this family chose not to pro recreate, not sure if Fogen sister has any children.
Wow, Omara knew last year this evidence would be introduced.
Mmmmm, ‘they always runaway through the back’
That is relevant, I believe Judge Nelson rules in States’ favor
Someone mentioned that ShelLIE looks like she is with spawn & I agree. I wouldn’t be surprised id ShelLIE is carrying satan’s baby.On the other hand, I think omara wld use that as a fund raising point if it were true.
ShelLIE is no more pregnant than GZ. They are just self-indulgent obese people with nothing to do but eat with the money the racists give them on their beg site. Besides I don’t want to imagine these 2 hippos mating. : (
So MO’M, how did it get into evidence to begin with? It is in, NOW you object? If it wasn’t relevant, how did it get in and why didn’t you object?
Just like he tried to get Trayvon Martin’s parents removed from the court room.
So make the damn decision then!
I wonder if the confessed murderer is wishing he had followed Sean Knopky’s suggestion, “We don’t need you to do that”?
Frank Taaffe said Zimmerman had enough and wasn’t going to take it anymore. These tapes point to why Zimmerman had had enough.
I have to assume that JDN likes to watch O’Mara dance
Oh, looking for an excuse to rule in his favor.
yep…
Oh, Marky, do that foxy little two-step for me again …
lol
Oh he is dying to bring in Trayvon’s past. Like it matters.
Though West’s 3 hour (almost) opening was rambling and boring, it was worth if for the defense. They are trying to poison the jury and argue their side before Prosecs get to present the evidence. It is a sign of desperation (though I have actually seen Zimfenders praise his performance).
I agree… That is exactly what they are attempting to do. Because once the prosecution presents it’s eveidence… all bets are off with the defense.
Key word here is evidence. The defense has zilch. Really. They have nothing. All day long they just try to discredit what the prosecution has. That’s not a defense.
It is a problematic strategy, however. By attempting to anticipate and refute in advance anything that the prosecution might bring up, they end up putting a lot of things into the mind of the jury. In a responsive argument (the defense side), as I recall from my debate team days in the dark ages, you want to present your side without reinforcing through mention any of the other side’s points. Example, Don West saying how many times he has heard that Trayvon was unarmed, and then going on with that lame counter that he was armed wih a sidewalk. Better to just talk about the head-blows to the sidewalk.
Thanks for the insight.
Does cross examination of Mr. Nofke create an issue?
O’Mara: Ummmm…
Huh?? Just freaking rule!
Has he given ANY case law?? Sit down O’Mara!
Did I just miss it, or did the local/world/national MSM decide to just forgo mentioning the blatant lie Timothy Tucholski told on Mr. Tracy Martin?
I sure hope perjury charges are brought on him.
Sigh, really big sigH. One of the locas headlined that story yesterday. Sad,
Manipulation by the elements attached to z family. I don’t believe for a second that noticing this idiot and reading his name tag would be in a father’s mind when leaving the courtroom, having heard what he heard inside there from lawyers..
I
ay2z
I strongly believe silence gives consent.
You are so right. It’s makes absolutely no sense for Mr. Martin to even give this louse the time of day considering the things the lawyers are saying.
The Fulton/Martin family has handle all of this so well, especially Mr. Martin who remained as cool as a cucumber after having heard the false allegation.
I was surprised JN did not call Mr. Martin to the witness stand. Obviously she saw through this fraud.
If Judge Nelson doesn’t give this to the state, I will know what side she is on.
sophia — try to keep in mind that there will be hundreds of issues that will be contended by either the prosecution or defense. in each one, the judge must decide what the law would dictate. i have not seen her pick any sides so far, but is doing her best in miserable conditions to apply law. there will be decisions that favor either side, ups and downs. we still have a long way to go and have to accept that some decisions will be against the state.
The judge needs to shut him up or he will go on and on forever!
It appears that MOM feels that if he talks long enough he will win. The defense seems think long-winded arguments are winning arguments.
Well that DID work for West a couple of times so — if you want to extinguish behavior you cannot reward it.
Funny, I just had an image of thousands of people outside the courthouse with big signs chanting: “Stay in your goddamned schtruck; stay in your goddamned schtruck; stay in your goddamned schtruck!” It had a sort of Monty Python quality to it.
If only.
It was reported that there was only 1 Zidiot protestor with a sign was there……….but had the words spelled wrong. Must be the words
“Free” “the” and “Zim:
I just feel like JN should allow the calls in, she specifically asked were there any objections… Soon as that picture starts to be painted what do you know: They object ugh… I must say that call they started playing was getting real good GZ’s state of mind the night he saw Trayvon his actions I feel were a build up of those past instances and like Frank Taffe said he was fed up and wasn’t gonna take anymore…
Calling the cops on 8 year old is not responsible.
The only time I called the cops on very young people was because they were skate boading from a driveway into a busy street. Cops went and told the parents and they appreciated my call. No Gun, just Cars.
Even if the idea that the RTL was a high crime neighborhood is “in evidence” at any point those calls should get in. Let folks see that Fogen’s calls were not about rapists and thugs “victimizing” the neighborhood; they were about eight-year-old pBa-lack kids “playing without permission” on “Fogenturf.” In broad daylight. I particularly liked the two about open garage doors. (You never can tell what will happen when the garage door is open; some Mexican could hide in the garage!)
LMAO! Fogen is white! He lives in a HOME. Stop profiling the poor whittle nervous Nelly.
Believe it or not, some Florida condo/townhouse complexes do have rules about keep garage doors closed. More for aethetics than crime. Complaints go to t condo boards.
For Fogen, the renting nutcase, to call cops is absurd.
O”Mara just insults JN again. You are going to need to listen to … so you’ll understand.
…And he tells her what is evidence.
MO’M – it does when he gets to where he can’t take it anymore because these assholes always get a way. Even Taffee says it. He just couldn’t take it anymore.
Gattdamn, Mantai is nailing this shit right the fuck down
lol forgive my language
good legal arguments make me randy 🙂
lol It’s okay Tzar, I get so worked up with this case too
🙂 🙂 🙂
that’s hawt 😉
young, smart, handsome guys like mr guy do it for me 🙂 (i tease the husband all the time as i approach 50 and he 40 that it’s time to trade him in for a younger model)
ha ha ha
it seems you ladies really like the men of prosecution
hope that helps the jury vole, lol
John Guy rocks! …with his good looking self! 😉
He’s very sharp and articulate.
Oh damn him, now he wants the judge to have to listen to all the calls!
He will lose the jury for sure the longer he drags things out. I mean right now it is cool, new, novel, but you know, I was on a jury once for 13 weeks (not secluded though) and it does get old after a while.
You are right Rachael. I had similar thoughts yesterday while West was rambling.
Because he knows we for whatever reason don’t have the call were he followed the suspect to Taaffe’s house, the “bomber hat” guy with the pajama pants, the burglary suspect that is suspicious since he was also observed looking into trash cans. Were of course he checks if the place offers lucrative loot. For whatever reason that is never the first thing on my mind, when I observe people doing this. The police officer I know whom I asked if one can consider this a typical feature of burglar, laughed out loud.
Am I the only one not happy with today? Too much waffling on following/not following. Yes the slides did warn against vigilantism. The site is hard to get into today.
O’Mara is fumbling. What case law are you using O’Mara.
Telling the Judge to listen to all the tapes first? Wow MOM sit down.
Good Morning All!
What an outstanding opening statement given by Mr. Guy yesterday! He was just awesome! Glad to see y’all here.
HOODIES UP!
They were told to come back with supporting case law. I guess MOM didn’t find any.
That’s what I am thinking, where is the case law.
I thought she said that they each handed her about 20 cases.
follow
Fogen’s sister just walked in … guess she’s not on wit list.
I hope JN moves this along quickly and makes her ruling! Otherwise MOM and West just don’t ever SHUT UP
O’Mara is about to go with “it’s not fair” argument.
Like when he suggested yesterday that since Zimmerman’s parents cannot be there that neither should Trayvon’s?
The state did their homework on this one.
Yep. They want those calls in, and imo they are relevant. I think the state will get this.
Agreed. Very relevant indeed.
Yes, I believe that I see the foundation for their case. Zimmerman’s state of mind on the night of the murder was that Trayvon was the bad guy who kept getting away–he was mad about that and he was going to prevent that from happening.
I like it.
I asked before, but does anyone know who that was with MOM during the time the attorneys were at Judge Nelsons podium before the motion was called to be heard? Has the Fogdoit picked up another attorney?
I do not see him now. I know who you are talking about but I have no idea who he is, sorry I could not help.
it was the county sheriff regarding some security issue according to local channel 9 (ABC).
Thank you, I suppose it is another effort by MOM to pollute the Jury and or the trial…
All the references to the back entrance leads me to believe he will be fine in prison.
Did you just say that? OMG.
Can’t unring that bell.
Ouch.
Deborah~ So you haven’t heard that Ramrod Johnson will be his new cell mate?
Fogen flat out went around harassing people. He’s an unstable paranoid nut! And now a murderer!
YUP!
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Rich Mantei.
Rich Mantei who?
If I were a Rich Man tei tee tei tee tei tee tei tee tei tee tei
🙂
If you missed it, a first element of the NPR trial coverage with about a joke that fell flat….accurate news, Id say.
Is that you, dear?
Good to hear, Beverly. South Florida local news channels talked about how trial opened with “expletives, the defendant’s own words” and with “a knock-knock joke from the defense” to offset.
Feb. 26, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
March 15, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
April 10, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
July 21, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
September 13, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
October 27, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
December 11, 2012: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
January 20, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
February 26, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
April 23, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
May 30, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
June 10, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
June 25, 2013: Knock Knock,
Who’s there?
Justice.
Justice who?
Justice for Trayvon.
Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock Knock …
Hoodies up!
And the walls……came tumbling down,,,and the walls…came tumbling again….yes the walls, came tumbling doooowwn again,,,
Bet he is regretting all those phone calls now being a Nosy Nellie.
This Mantai cat is sharp.
Very
following. I know, I know…you don’t need me to do that 🙂
It’s okay. We are all armed with our sidewalks. 😉
More classic stupidity. Didn’t see that one highlighted on the news, however. Just the knock-knock (and the profanity from the defense).
You’re not following – you’re just going in the same direction because you’re in the area.
Judge Nelson should deny the defense’s motion on two grounds.
1. The defense originally said that they had no objection.
2. The state is providing solid evidence as to why these tapes should be admitted.
I agree. I hope she does…..
Apparently both sides have flooded her with cases that they consider pertinent. Someone in JN’s office is going to be busy reading and summarizing today!
Zimmerman is breathing heavily..
He is also busy taking notes to give to his fellow attorneys!
He’s afraid of the calls getting in. I hope they do.
Mantai is doing a good job.
Morning folks. I will be in and out all day so I am counting on great threads today. Have a blessed day!
Good morning Everyone!
God he’s good.
Amen sister! Yes He is!
Who was the other individual at the judges podium with MOM? I have not seen him before.. Did they add another attorney?
Fogen already wiping sweat from forehead and today’s action has yet to get rolling. West offers a pat on shoulder. That in itself would make me nervous.
Probably just cut down on his benzos. Withdrawl.
Just what I was about to say.
Is the audio on?
Apparenltly not. I have it on 3 streams and none of them is getting audio.
Okay thanks I was frantically looking for another stream, but I guess I just need to be patient
When you see them all up with the judge, the mics are off.
Here it goes.
I wonder if O’Mara will get a “don’t no no me” again today and please no jokes from West (disgusting)…I don’t get why West and O’Mara are so disrespectful to the judge….Hopefully the remaining NEN and 911 calls made before Trayvon was murdered will come in today. I know where the prosecution is going with this it does speak to Zimmerman’s state of mind, also his habit of profiling (including who he profiles). How is it O’Mara agreed the calls could come in? Was he thinking?
I loved the “Don’t no no me!”
There will probably be more to come..
JN needs to no no them a little more often, do they realize how disrespectful they look to normal people (excluding the nuthouse)…How is it do you do not know why the state is introducing Zimmerman’s previous phone calls?
LOVED that, rachael!
Maybe knew they would get in either way, but wants to poison the jury. Wants to play the victim and show that they tried to fight this and the judge is biased against the D. They hope without hope there is a closet Treenut on the jury.
Seem to be oblivious to the feelings of others–almost a group autism.
The knock-knock joke was such an incredibly bad idea. I get that he thought he could dispel the image still lingering from the prosecution’s opening, but it totally destroyed the message that West was aiming for which was, “this is a tragedy but there are no monsters here.”
I bet I’m not the only one who has a teeny crush on Mr. Guy.
You’re not 😉
Not me. Bernie all the way baby!
Well, Bernie’s cute too. There’s no mutually exclusive rule. Two, two, two crushes are better than one.
I guess, but I think Guy is young enough to be my son, and while he is nice to look at, that kinda creeps me out. LOL
Guy got it going on and all but, BERNIE had me at HELLO!
Oh, no you are not.
x2
LOL, I do. And I’m a straight man.
Someone on twitter calked him a Ken doll. Yes he is attractive to me, also great presence. Confidence.
i want to offer him role on THE GOOD WIFE.
concerning crush on Mr. Guy, while that’s not exactly my way to respond to him. I was furious when I read the take of Rene and Jeff at Orlando Sentinel that used this adjective for his opening statement: profane.
But methodical surely made me laugh. I didn’t notice, that was in fact exactly what I missed.
I’ve only been able to see bits and pieces. When I saw them reply his opening I laughed out loud, only because every reporter’s head in the background jumped upright in surprise and then they started to write….Rene was one of them.
Not sure, if I understand towerflower. With “them” “seeing them reply” you mean what? Media responding to his opening statement, or defense doing so?
from powerful to profane, but maybe I don’t get their specific use of profane. worldly? a more profane variant of the crush discussed here?
But I realize now I wasn’t very clear too, I didn’t consider West’s response methodical, I meant. On twitter even Rene admitted it was partly pretty disorganized, although they put the lame joke at the very end of their article.
Since you didn’t watch it, the joke was meant to smooth the passage from a superficial show of empathy concerning the ultimately “sad thing that happened” to Fogen’s narrative of a burglar suspect turned into a killer. But it failed. Even more since the joke concentrated on the fact that the ladies in the jury were selected for not knowing anything about George. Some may keep that in mind.
I don’t know what these women are like, after they were chosen I managed to listen to the media cross exams of the first three again. I hope Guy will charm them as the ladies here. 😉
Good looking, confident, concise and direct, well-spoken, and prepared – versus – old and creepy looking, bumbling, combative with judge, lost, and rambling. Which do you think made a better first impression of the all female jury?
Another day at the racists. Hoodies UP.
One curious thing I noticed yesterday during the opening speech (statement) of Don West, was that not only was the Fogdoit taking notes, Don West came to him and took those notes directly to the podium (without MOM looking at them first) and actually seemed to use them in a few comments. It would seem that (as I and others have said) that the Fogdoit is actually in more control of this case than some people seem to think. Perhaps that is part of the reason that it seems that the attorneys are incompetent? We must remember that the Fogdoit is not only a police officer wannabe, he is also an attorney wannabe as well!
Perhaps Fogen’s training to become the quintessential failed jailehouse lawyer!
I do wish that I had your confidence about a conviction in this trial, I still think we will se a mis-trial caused by the defense (intentionally) actions, perhaps “accidently outing one of the members of the jury” or something similar. I think there will eventually be a conviction for manslaughter with a very light sentence given, Florida justice will prevail….. I hope I am wrong, but only time will provide the answer….
crazy — I think that’s one reason JN is being soooo very careful in every ruling. She’s done time in South Flolrida’s Broward Circuit Court and is not known for being a wimp. If a mistrial occurs because of overt actions from MOM & Co., I want to see Fogen’s bail revoked. Let him sweat out time awaiting his next trial in the slammer.
Maybe he was the one who kept moving West’s exhibits around yesterday!
TO, he should have time to do that, become the QFJL, the J will naturally stand for ‘Jailed’.
Question:
Do you think gz’s new suits and ties will still be “in style” in 25 years?
I get the feeling a smart attorney would push for a plea. Zim and his family would have poo-pooed that (hence, probably why the other attys were fired). The attys not wanting to give up the free press, are reluctantly trying the case. They know they have nothing, so they talk in circles and delay, delay, delay the inevitable in hopes that something will stick (and it actually works sometimes). In sum, I do believe the Zimmerman family is directing this…
West may also be looking to paint himself as incompetent to give Fogen a leg to stand on on appeal. He stated in his opening that he was unsure of the name of one of the streets. Was that an attempt to make it seem commonplace to forget the name of a street one should be familiar with?
Also, did anyone see Angela Corey’s eyeballs pop out her head when West included in his opening the fact that Fogens parents were not in the courtroom, but Trayvon’s were. Just despicable behavior. So reprehensible.
Nocamo33~ you can’t accept what isn’t offered. The prosecution starts the ball rolling on a plea deal, and they have zero reason to offer anything to this murdering POS.
Got it. Thanks. Like I said in another post. Learning.
It’s true that the defense can make overtures, from a hint to a flat-out request. But cielo62’s right: Ya cain’t accept or negotiate what ain’t put on the table.
Aha.
He did want to be a judge when his plan to be a cop failed. Now he’s getting lessons.
Good morning — Delighted to have professor’s summation on yesterday to file for reference.
Hope his Happy Birthday was enjoyed to the max.
Now awaiting today’s twists, turns, and zingers.
(Am still steamed about yesterday’s maligning of Tracy Martin. Ideally O’Mara (along with ShelLie) gets blowback from the court and State on what at most should have been an in chambers conversation.)
kinda sleepy, but ready to rumble in CA!!
what, fred, no official word re: knock knock jokes at murder trials of minors? i’m still stunned.
(and too sleepy to check the follow box)
Good morning everyone!
Good Morning, Seekers of Justice.
Thanks again to Frederick Leatherman for this place to share and for the education about the law.
(fauxmcoy – you’re not having skittles for breakfast again, are you?)
This is when I really miss being able to see the jury to see their faces as a mirror to what’s being presented
Speaking of that, I didn’t pay attention and didn’t look – was that jury consultant still there? I’m just wondering if he’s watching and analyzing the jury for the defense.
I did not see him at the trial yesterday, but perhaps he is in contact with MOM via text or e-mail, it appeared that MOM was using some sort of phone or tablet to text yesterday at various times….
Yeah, so he can check in with the outhouse LOL!
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Present and ready
Thunderstorms here. Coming in late and hoping I can stay online.
Ok, tell the truth, the world has come to it’s final moments? How can it be that I am first to post today? Hmmm, must be a fake link?
Close to first?
On the spot! 🙂
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