Opening Statements completed and four witnesses testify in Zimmerman trial

Monday, June 24, 2013

Good morning:

We have completed the first day of trial and it was bizarre.

Jim Guy’s opening statement was unlike any opening statement that I have ever heard. Focused and powerful it seemed more like a persuasive closing argument or summation of the evidence than an opening statement.

Opening statements are opportunities to educate jurors, who likely do not know very much about the case. Therefore, the emphasis should be on clarifying rather than selling a point of view. That is why lawyers preface statements about the evidence during opening statements with the introductory phrase, “We believe the evidence will show,” or establish something certain about the case.

The goal is to keep the presentation simple, accurate and relatively easy to recall (the KISS rule). Argument, spin and minutiae are not helpful.

The defense opening statement was too long, too argumentative and too detailed.

On multiple occasions Mr. West violated a fundamental rule of opening statements by asserting certain facts as undisputed when they are disputed. He also made false assertions of fact that can easily be disproven.

The prosecution called four witnesses:

1. Chad Joseph

He is Brandi Green’s 15-year-old son. He and Trayvon were playing a video game when Trayvon said he was going to walk to the 711 and asked him if he wanted anything. He said Skittles. Trayvon left and he never saw him again. He was wearing headphones and could not hear.

2. Andrew Gaugh

He was the clerk at the 711 who handled Trayvon’s transaction. He does not have an independent recollection of the transaction.

3. Sean Knopke

He was the 911 operator who fielded GZ’s call. Denies that he would have told GZ to folloe or find Trayvon and call him back with the update. They have a policy that prohibits doing that.

4. Ramona Rumph

She is the custodian of records for the 911 call center. She brought the records for all of GZ calls.

O’Mara objected when the prosecutor began to question her about a previous 911 call by the defendant that is almost identical. The implication is that the defendant has a script that he uses to report suspicious activity.

Basis of the objection: inadmissible uncharged misconduct pursuant to Rule 404(b).

Discussion ensued without a resolution. Judge Nelson recessed the trial until 8:30 am EDT when she will resume the discussion regarding O’Mara’s objection.

She told the jury to return at 9 am.

SUMMARY: Prosecution off to a good start. Defense stumbled badly out of the gate with a poor opening statement and both defense counsel exhibited poor judgment, lack of respect for Judge Nelson and the dignity of the Court, and anger management issues.

Defense hostility and lack of respect for Judge Nelson is obvious. The jurors cannot have failed to see it and likely were offended. Difficult to respect defense counsel when they act like spoiled children.

I will see you all at 8:30 am EDT.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.


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2,237 Responses to Opening Statements completed and four witnesses testify in Zimmerman trial

  1. bang tai says:

    She saw what she saw, and her testimony has been virtually the same throughout. She’s witness 2. The jury could just as easily see it as Omara is a sleezeball attorney and his client and him are lying for fame and fortune and trying to cover up a murder, as the motive is there. I dont feel Omara phased her one bit nor helped his case one bit.

  2. Woow! says:

    He is an engineer at Exxon and they drug test regularly.

  3. Woow! says:

    You guys you can not put much weight on kids talking about drinking, smoking weed and partying.

    The reason I say this is because kids talk to be important or to fit in but that does not mean they are doing the things they twit about or put on facebook.

    For example I don’t do social media but I have a fake page to track my kids 23, 19, and 17. The 23 yr old has a pic of him in his car full of smoke with a blunt in his and with the words smoked out.

    The funny thing is this kid does not drink or do any kind of drugs. He has an app on his phone that he uses to manipulate the picture to make himself look as if there is smoke and the blunt was imposed to appear in his mouth. I did not believe it until he did the same thing with my picture.

  4. diary73 says:

    Professor Leatherman has begun a new thread.

  5. Malisha says:

    Now that I think of it, the motion that we should hear about tomorrow, to exclude the prior phone reports (whether NEN or 911 or a mix) from Fogen, should have ZERO legal support and Judge Nelson absolutely should deny it. After all, the “prior acts” indicated are not alleged to be prior “bad acts” because Fogen is not being prosecuted for making phone calls to the police. Nor is calling the police illegal or even unlawful. Furthermore, the DEFENSE brought in the 2/26/2012 NEN call; how can prior such calls be excluded as “irrelevant”?

    Of course, the NEN calls are business records of the police department. Just as Wendy Dorival was relevant to show prior events that had a bearing or could have a bearing on what happened that night, the prior calls to police would have just as much bearing on what happened.

    Lastly, “There have been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood” and “These assholes, they always get away” and “they always run away quickly to the back entrance of the neighborhood” and “I had seen a suspicious guy at my friend’s [Taaffe’s] house” are all indicative of the fact that prior events led Fogen to take the actions he took that night.

    I cannot imagine what legal excuse there could be to exclude the prior calls. I sure hope Judge Nelson doesn’t “come up” with one.

  6. DruDo says:

    Question: Apparently O’Mara was on Anderson Cooper tonight talking about the trial. I really don’t know, but that seems way out of line for an attorney who is in the midst of a trial going on national TV and discussing it. Seems pretty unethical (why am I not surprised?), at the least.

    • DruDo says:

      whoops ~ my question is: Is he legally allowed to do that?

    • Woow! says:

      MOM isn’t an attorney, he is a disgrace. He wanted this case to propel him as the KC Anthony case did Baez but all he is doing is making himself seem stupid, petty, and incompetent. Come on now being disrespectful to a judge, hostile toward witnesses, mean mugging the prosecutors, and most of all the nasty race baiting. Now tell me is that the actions of a respectable attorney.

      This case has been all about money for MOM and company. I guarantee he has pocketed a lot from that website and probably found a way to receive funds directly.

      He did not spend money on this case and had the never to renovate his office. Didn’t he ask the court to force an expert to lower his fee?

      What attorney would reach out to racist blogger for assistance on a case? I hope every judge he go before going forward remember the way he has conducted himself and not give him any leeway in any of his cases.

      • ladystclaire says:

        O’Thug is a disgrace as well as a B*****D and, his karma is not too far off and, the same goes for all involved in that side of the aisle. I have never witnessed a defense as DIRTY and THUGISH as this one. Biaz was dirty but, this man here and, (I use the term man very loosely) is a disgrace to mankind in general.

        I feel so bad for Trayvon and his family because of the way they have been treated by some in this country.

      • Shari says:

        I watched the Casey Anthony trial and like this one I became emotionally involved. Jose Baez was criticized for his objections and inexperience but he ended up wining. The jurors in that case infuriated me because they seemed to believe George was involved with no evidence and they wanted to know how exactly Caylee died. Well a murderer is going to try to cover things up so there is no way of knowing every detail of the murder.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I agree and, I think those folks in the media should be ashamed for even giving him a platform to discuss this trial. this wasn’t done in the Jodi Arias trial by her attorneys so, why would HLN and Anderson Cooper even entertain having this man on their shows discussing this?

      Once again I am laying this at JN’S door because, she has refused to muzzle this idiot, not once but twice. why would a judge do that, especially in a high profile case such as this one.

      I wonder what are they going to do about ShelLie’s stunt from Monday? you would think she has learned a lesson from her perjury charge. I think this W(B)itch is a former passenger on the short school bus and, I’m as serious as a heart attack.

      • Woow! says:


        scroll up top I just said the same thing about Fogen. I believe both of them are retards. What a couple!!!!!

        SPD is to blame for this entire situation. They knew that boy was a loose canon and did nothing. 911/NEN saw him as a nuisance.

        JN need to grow a pair and put a muzzle on MOM.

      • ic2fools says:

        So now O’mar is taking the role of legal analyst about the trial?

        Isn’t there anything the court can do about O’mar in the media during trial? There has to be a law! Defense in the media right after trial recesses sure as heck should not work in defense favor.

        Omar Anderson Cooper interview 6/25/2013

    • ic2fools says:

      Omar interview with Anderson Cooper link. Omar talks about west knock knock joke, frye hearing and Judge Nelson. JN needs to GAG rabid O’Dog from giving interviews during proceedings!!!!! Enough already, didn’t she already once tell them about running to media after in chambers discussion. Honestly, I hope Bernie brings this up in Court tomorrow

  7. Woow! says:

    Is Fogen on something? Do anyone know if he was taking any type of anti depressant, Ritalin, or some other drugs on a daily. He looks doped up every day as if they have him on something to keep him calm and from fidgeting.

    • DruDo says:

      Woow, he sure acts like it. His eyes keep closing and he looks like he’s off in la-la land.

    • Puck says:

      When he went to jail, he asked Shellie to get his meds for him, one of which was Remeron (mirtazapine), an antidepressant. He was also on Adderall, Librax (part benzodiazepine therefore akin to Valium, and usually prescribed for irritable bowel syndrome), and Restoril (temazepam), which is another benzodiazepine for sleep. (And it’s awesome, btw.)

    • ladystclaire says:

      I guess when you kill a child like he did, something is or someone is making their presence known to only him. did you guys see the way he reacted, when they showed those photos of Trayvon?

  8. My Forehead Tho says:

    Wow. So now people have found Rachel Jeantel’s (DeeDee) twitter page and are already talking down on her:

    These people act as if they never drunk alcohol or occasionally smoked weed or knew anybody who has.

    Hopefully the prosecution doesn’t allow O’Mara to badger Rachel like they allowed him to do the last witness.

    • “smoked weed”?…..Thanks for the reminder…..time I visit a certain Caterpillar.. 🙂

    • Woow! says:

      I told you guys yesterday when Rachel’s name was mention in court the Treepers were on the hunt for her. One of them posted the info for the wrong Rachel and the admin told them not post personal info b/c they were previously accused of doxing.

      The prosecution need to protect this child. The comments those backwooded a-holes are making about her burns me up.

      • cielo62 says:

        Woow!~Well NOW it’s more than mere accusations. They can catch these lowlives redhanded and prosecute them harshly. I hope that includes jail time for those scum.


    • DruDo says:

      She’s basically just a kid and I sure hope he doesn’t do that to her. If he does, he’s lower than anything I can even begin to compare him to. If the prosecution and the judge lets him get away with that, then I’m going to be really angry and disgusted.

      • cielo62 says:

        DruDo~ Remember that court is part theater.There are 6 women jurors and a woman judge who worked as a child advocate. Bernie and etc will definitely be safeguarding a child from MOM’s badgering if for no other reason than to score points with all the mothers in their audience.


    • Shari says:

      That is just sad but the prosecution should have seen it coming. The girlfriend’s parents should have some legal reps for her. When Trayvon died they searched for his sites, they are digging through witness sites, so I’m not shocked their in hers.

      I deleted my FB last year but re opened it to stay in touch with family. I may delete all this stuff again.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Maybe someone needs to send this BS to the prosecution so, the authorities can act accordingly. this kind of shit doesn’t make any sense. there is not a one of those Ignoramuses at TCSH, with a dog in this fight.

      IMO these people are dangerous and, they are out to harm this witness. why wasn’t anything done about them, when it was found out what they were doing?

    • Jun says:

      Yall need to relax, Omara did nothing to the last witness, I think you are overreacting

      What did he do?

      Witness 2 did tell Serino there was a chase towards the T

      Why do you think Bernie knew to ask her the direction of the chase she heard?

      Omara already lost the jury by being shown to be a liar by the CSI Tech, the photos, and this witness today

      Seriously, once the medical experts come in, they will look like even bigger liars because none of them stated that his injuries were consistent with his claims

      Fogen does not look like he was beaten

      Lastly the jury saw Trayvon’s hands up close, and like Guy told the jury, there is no DNA

      Omara will do nothing to the witnesses, especially since it’s an all female jury and most of the witnesses are females

      • cielo62 says:

        Jun- maybe you don’t get the subtle interplay and nuances of the way MOM belittled, disrespected and tainted the witness. THAT is what we are talking about. He subtly called her a liar. He implied she came forward for money and fame. He asked convoluted questions that made no sense to confuse her and unbalance her. And he kept badgering her because she would NOT give him the answer he wanted to hear vMOM us a putz.


      • Jun says:

        Well, just because he implied it, it does not necessarily make it true. All he did was repeatedly say that the left to right thing was new, yet, they claimed it in their opening statement. As for the her testimony, he did not really prove that she was lying, because he could not prove that. She saw what she saw, and her testimony has been virtually the same throughout. She’s witness 2. The jury could just as easily see it as Omara is a sleezeball attorney and his client and him are lying for fame and fortune and trying to cover up a murder, as the motive is there. I dont feel Omara phased her one bit nor helped his case one bit. Considering West’s opening, the CSI Tech just made the defense team look like liars with the beating claims, because they all saw the photos today. They also saw Trayvon’s hands up close today, and it supports Guy’s opening, and it makes Fogen’s and Omara’s story look fishy. Lastly the CSI tech just stated that they found no blood on the sidewalk or the grass, yet the jury saw there was blood on Fogen’s head. That makes their rain wash theory ridiculous, because, why did it not wash off Fogen’s head and the blood also dried?

    • Jun says:

      Omara’s gonna look like a prick attacking a girl in front of a female judge and female jurors

      He’s not gonna do himself any favors attacking witness 8, especially with BS like drinking or smoking weed

      I watched another case, and the attorney that tried attacking a witness over marijuana use in the past, the jury did not like that and felt the person was just veering off the case of what is relevant

    • KA says:

      They are not that bad. She is feeling a lot of stress over this obviously. I think many-a-adult may have a drinking problem when their BF was murdered immediately after talking on the phone with them. She is obviously hurting and has been warned that it will get ugly in court.

  9. YQ says:

    I think that the prosecution will be more aggressive from here on out. The waters have been tested and now they see what their dealing with… a divorce lawyer with tricks up his sleeve. I’m optimistic that they should have their gaurds up the rest of the way and perhaps protect these next witnesses better. Who knows? Maybe we might see a phony doctor’s note and prescriptions? I for one don’t think Bahadoor’s statement is as damning compared to Mary Cutcher’s.

    • Nef05 says:

      I’m sorry, YQ – I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. The prosecution has known what they were dealing with for months and more. They;ve known about O’Mara and his tricks since the first bond hearing when he started putting MMA-style on the record, knowing it had been recanted.

      I don’t know if you were posting here, when this response was written by BDLR, but allow me to link you to the professor’s article on it. I think you will see BDLR knows exactly what he’s dealing with and has no compunction about breaking it down.

      For everyone else: Here is a clear reminder of why we should have a little faith in BDLR and his ability to handle these jokers. He’s already shown us, in no uncertain terms that he’s got this!

    • Jun says:

      Her statement is actually damning because it proves Fogen is a liar and her testimony is supported by witness 18, 1, and DD, which proves Fogen continued his pursuit

      Then after they can bring in Fogen’s GPS records from his phone LOL

      Omara really did not do much to be real, honestly, what did he do?

      He did nada

      • Nef05 says:

        Just for reference purposes, this was W1. Her sister W2, has not testified and some have posted here earlier today that she probably won’t.

  10. Woow! says:

    I hope the prosecution team will be me aggressive in this objection when Rachel take the stand. I do not want MOM doing to that child what he did to witness 1 today.

    To the posters somewhere above, I was bored on a short break today and ventured over the the TreeSewer just to see what those crazies were saying and on poster mentioned Trayvons school records and MOM should have released them to show Trayvon had a history of getting in trouble. That is why I asked how did they get a copy of his records because that poster seemed to have viewed the records.

    Is that guy Sundance an attorney b/c those folks refer to him for legal advice.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Crackhead is nothing more than a manipulator of those who have conspiracy tendencies and who are true christian racists. He feeds them well.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      From what I hear, he’s a grocer by day – someone once said he’s a manager at Winn-Dixie or Publix or something.

      • Woow! says:

        Why is that bigots, the really racist mean spirited people always call themselves Christians, are poor, uneducated, most very unattractive, and down right ignorant?

        • Because people believe “Christianity” is the “right” religion…

          MMP…a happy atheist.. 🙂

        • Xena says:

          @Woow! Please do not lump me in with people who say they are Christian, but impugn the true nature and ways of Christ.

          A tree is known by its fruit. An onion can tell you it is an apple and might deceive you if you have never seen or tasted either.

        • Shari says:

          I live in the south and I have noticed the most beat up pick ups have the rebel flag stickers on the bumper.

    • Nef05 says:

      O’Mara is under court order not to release them. A minor’s school records are an issue of privacy. Actually, I think anyone’s school records are an issue of privacy. The prosecution released fogen’s by mistake and apologized.

      As for the crackhouse – they don’t have the records. They know O’Mara does and like any other day that ends with “y”, they ASSUME that since Trayvon is a “thug” his school records will reflect that. Based on statements by his teachers and friends, and even on his Tweets and emails (even the hacked ones), he was basically a good and decent kid, doing and saying the kind of things teenagers do and say, preparing to follow in his brother’s footsteps and attend college. The crackhouse can literally kiss the crack of my @$$. They are disgusting beyond belief.

    • Jun says:

      I think that was witness 2 today but to be honest, Omara did not do anything to her, IMO. Witness 2 did say that she saw a chase towards the “T”. Witness 2 saying left to right, is a different way of saying the exact same direction. But I could be wrong. If it’s witness 1, then honestly, Bernie asked her about the direction and she explained it. I dont see how that could be interpreted any differently. The only reason Omara makes a fuss is because the testimony contradicts Fogen’s bullshit. But that is not the end of it.

  11. Shari says:

    I am responding here because I don’t remember who said it. There are a lot of comments that I ignore because it’s not necessary to respond but today I felt compelled. This is not a Democrat only movement. 2 million people signed the petition including people like me who yes voted for Mitt Romney. (His comments on the case were measured and decent unlike Santorum and Gingrich) I am not an idiot, self hater, or bigot and I really don’t appreciate being insulted.

    Sybrina Fulton said this isn’t about black or white it’s about right or wrong. I assume she would also say this is not about right or left. When this case is concluded I’m sure I’ll exit and maybe unfollow people on twitter I don’t know. For the time being I ask you be respectful of the diversity of thought here. The prof and his wife allowed me to make comments on the DP that conflicted with their own views and I appreciate that. I would hope you would mirror that.

    Let’s not re hash election 2012. Obama won, I hope you all are getting everything you voted for. No need to debate it. It’s done.

    • Puck says:

      Make no mistake, this crime, this trial, the shared collective experience, and this conflict are most definitely about race.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        At best, it’s a layered experience. We can look at it from different levels and there’s definitely a racial perspective at the very least in the rabid support of Fogen by racists. His father has definitely outed himself as a racist with his new book. Fogen is no stranger to racism.

        • Puck says:

          I maintain the racial issue is the most fundamental of all. Consider what I said about allowing Obama a win as a resignation of white political privilege. Allowing Trayvon to be who he was — a non-thug wholly innocent victim of a race-based crime — is to many an existential crisis of belief and a direct threat to what they consider their God-given power and privilege.

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen Senior DID out himself. He’s not the sharpest tool in the racist shed!

      • YQ says:

        It should be more about race for the GZ fans, but there is a bigger picture to it all.

        But more importantly it’s about human rights. Trayvon could have been any race but the gist of it is that what Fogen did was still wrong. The race part is the under-lying or over-arching issue. It’s just important to convict to be clear on what should and shouldn’t be happening to 17 year old kids walking home at night.

        Fogen profiled, followed, confronted and tried to detain that KID, not just black kid. Black or white, that would still be immoral.

      • Shari says:

        Okay let me clarify since I was not clear. Of course this case is about race. GZ followed Trayvon because he was a young black male. What I said was Ms. Sybrina said that justice for her son is not a black or white thing, it’s right or wrong. All I am saying is I understand the majority view here. But this isn’t Common Dreams or DailyKos, no need to insult everyone who didn’t vote the way you did last year. My opinion on how Obama is handling foreign policy and economic policy is irrelevant to the topic. And it is also not relevant for people here to attack the character of anyone who voted for Romney.

        I have no problem calling out the racist right, I do it all the time and will continue to do it until I stop following politics. GZ’s dad a few weeks after national attention started attacking Obama and Holder spouting Hannity talking points. Of course the right will be skewered. Cool. But Republican doesn’t equal Zidiot, I bet Condi Rice and Michael Steele aren’t Zidiots. On several occasions they have both refused to give cover for the right when they were wrong.

        • Puck says:

          I didn’t insult the Republican body politic. I wrote what is true about Republicans in government and social conservatism in the larger context. This is based on four years of research and critical analysis grounded in established social and cultural theory, and has passed peer review.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Puck –

        I can’t agree with your statement, “… this crime, this trial, the shared collective experience, and this conflict are most definitely about race.”

        I have learned a lot about race, thought so much more about it from my colleagues on this site, feel the dangers and inequities far more deeply – and constantly – than ever before in my life.

        But for me, as part of “the shared collective experience” for the past year, this crime, this trial, ABOVE ALL, even above race, is about DEATH.

  12. Tee says:

    We’re not all going to agree all the time. Some of the evidence will not be in our favor or will be able to be explained away by the defense. This case will not hinge on one witness, one piece of evidence or the screams on the tape. All the evidence together tells a story all the witness statement put into sequence tells a story. We just have to let it play out literally in court & trust that justice will be rendered. No matter murder 2 or manslaughter it’s the same sentence in my state of Florida, 20 yrs to life if you fire a gun in the commission of a crime not even the judge can change your time, it’s mandatory. Murder 2 we pray because I believe his heart was open for the word to see with that NEN call. I’ll will murder 2

    • tashatexas77048 says:


      And I’ll calm down….unless JN doesn’t allow those previous NEN calls by the defendant and I’ll warn everyone now, I’m subject to go a little ballistic lol

      • ladystclaire says:

        @tashatexas77048, didn’t the dumbfense agree to those calls coming in and, now they are bitching and whining about not wanting them in? JN gave into them as far as not allowing the experts testify about who is screaming on one of the 911 calls. IMO, she should allow these calls to come in and, just let dumb and dumber stew in their own shit.

        It’s not right for them to keep having everything in this trial their way. also, I don’t see how anybody on that jury, could look at this child’s body and, allow him to get away with what he did. I also hope for those who always made stupid remarks, about which photo of Trayvon was being shown in the media, I hope they got their chance to see him just as he was.

        WE have some pretty “SICK” and, heartless people in this country and, that is sad. it seems that the “BEST” country in the world, has the most ignorant heartless people in the world as well. I for one will “NEVER” forget how this child and his family, has been so disrespected and mistreated by some in this country.

        Those people and, their attitudes towards this child is why I can’t see how some see this as the best country in the world.

        • Shari says:

          Yup one thing that broke my heart is how small and helpless he looked. He was so skinny he reminded me of my son. He eats and eats but gains no weight.

          I had a black Zidiot on twitter tell me in all caps that “TRAYVON WASN’T 12 HE WAS ALMOST 18 AND HIGH HOODIED” Can you believe that? They are making up words to try to make him scary. He was a skinny little kid. Just walking home.

  13. Puck says:

    Here’s the last bit of the conclusion to that epic paper on the Tea Party and new Right I’ve mentioned a few times:

    “Social conservatism is by its very nature untenable, for even as it rams a cudgel into the engine of social progress, it is ultimately incapable of countering social phenomena such as changing demographics that reflect a growing rejection of, and open disdain for, regressivism. Society marches on, regardless of what the Tea Party wants. Just as Paul Ryan said: Republicans weren’t counting on the “urban” vote turning out as it did. And their attempts at minority voter disenfranchisement through voter identification laws—fundamental violences upon democracy—didn’t work, either. Nothing seemed to work this time around, not even good ol’ time Jim Crow poll shenanigans updated for the twenty-first century.

    And now they are beside themselves trying to figure out what to do next. Who will be their saviour in 2016? Or will they need a sacrificial lamb if Hillary Clinton decides to run? The buzz around New Jersey Governor Chris Christie as a new hope faded dramatically in the wake of Hurricane Sandy, when, purely in the humanitarian interest of his constituents, he worked alongside Barack Obama in mutual cooperation between levels of government, each evincing leadership and a respect for each other in spite of ideological differences. Christie’s 2013 CPAC invitation didn’t get lost in the mail. He was banished for deigning to associate with the black president during a natural disaster. They invited Donald Trump instead.

    All the while, the Republicans maintain their grip on Congress, killing measures such as gun safety legislation, pointlessly delaying cabinet confirmation hearings, or using the filibuster in the Senate to prevent mere up-or-down votes on any legislation that might remotely make Barack Obama look good. Allowing Obama to win on the larger conflict that underlies the issues would mean a de facto resignation of the white political privilege that formed the foundation of America. Such a submission would be the ultimate American role reversal as its original sin is confronted once and for all, with stalemate not an option. The mythologized embodiment of Christian whiteness that for centuries signified the ‘real’ America would recede further into the realm of myth, replaced by a growing diversity and progressivism that in a sense rejects this American mythos, since it operates in—and celebrates—the reality of contemporary life, rather than the realishness of that vaguely familiar yet indefinable era (because it never existed) that the Tea Party so desperately wants to return to. It’s not so much a fear of accepting the apparent ‘loss’ of their country as it is the terrifying realization that it is not theirs alone to claim, much less take back on their own terms.

    This crisis is therefore about culture and power, and throughout U.S. history these have been unequivocally linked under the aegis of white privilege. In the absence of such unshakable monolithic agency, though, who claims control? Whose face will be chosen to face the world as embodying the totality and meaning of America and all that this ongoing project, begun by the Founders, promises? This is of utmost national importance and meaning. In 2008, Americans chose a black man as this embodiment, and this was just too much for vast swaths of the body politic, especially the social conservatives (regardless of region) belonging to a Southernized political party. The only possible reaction was hysteria, perhaps at the very root of which was the hard-wired primal survival mechanism that identifies the threat of the Other and reacts spontaneously and often violently. Our contemporary society of digital communications technologies allows for the global broadcast of the primal scream. And then in 2012, Americans chose to keep this black man, a bit more wrinkled, his hair greying, as their collective national avatar in a clear, decisive, and direct victory over those who sought nothing less than his destruction.

    “We, the People” has been unshackled from what it has traditionally meant. “We, the People” now represents a once unthinkable coalition of diverse peoples and cultures, with a prevailing (if not necessarily uniform) ethos that has evolved past mere tolerance. Tolerance is neither acceptance nor understanding. Tolerance maintains a power dynamic in which the more privileged group tolerates the lesser. Acceptance and understanding only burgeon once communication enters the dynamic as a means to not only bridge gaps and discover each other, but move toward mutual celebration of the diversities of all, with the ultimate common goal of shared progress. This is why I always maintain that the internet changed everything in terms of social progress, for within a very compressed period of time, we became suddenly and fantastically joined together in a true global village in which communication fosters good will and progress among peoples. “We, the People” of America can now self-determine and self-identify themselves, no longer bound by the rigid traditions, conventions, sentiments, resentments, and conflicts of the past.

    But so many in the United States—that constituency of rage—just aren’t ready to go there yet. And it took a black man, a devoted follower of Lincoln, to show this to America and to the world.

    • Puck says:

      (It’s implied, and many of you know this of course, but this is my work. I didn’t specify that.)

    • Puck says:

      (And this is copyrighted with a copy in the Library and Archives Canada, which is like the Library of Congress, so no one rip me off, lol.)

      • diary73 says:

        Puck, I would love to deliver this in an upcoming Toastmasters speech! How might I read this piece in it’s entirety?

        • Puck says:

          You can’t, really. I haven’t published it online or elsewhere. It’s around 150 pages anyway. But you can’t use it as a speech, I’m afraid, though I’m deeply honored that you have been moved to do so. If I could be there I would gladly deliver it myself as a part of a longer lecture. But it’s copyrighted material, and I need to maintain control of my intellectual property.

    • cielo62 says:

      Puck- BRAVO. BRAVISIMO!!!! Now I want the entire epic.


    • Two sides to a story says:

      Nice work.

    • Nef05 says:

      I’ve been waiting for this for a while, it’s as good as I thought it would be. I just wish there was a way we could read the whole thing without compromising your anonymity. Sometimes the downside of the internet really sucks!

      Great job, Puck. Really outstanding. 🙂

    • fauxmccoy says:

      bravo! well done, that must feel fantastic to have it completed, bound and i believe you said up for publication in a peer reviewed journal? impressive and hats off!

  14. Nef05 says:

    Guys, can we keep our eyes on the ball?
    Let’s not forget the most important thing W1 said.

    She said that she both saw and heard John come out and go back in. That means when she was at the door before the shot, while they were STANDING.

    That’s why I’m not concerned about the media claiming she was “impeached” (she wasn’t).Or, about some petition that anyone could have posted on her wall or tagged her on, which would have put it on her wall, as well.

    Clearly they missed the most important part of her testimony which impeaches W6 AND fogen, at the same time – and it has nothing to do with which way they were running. The running part is is important as well, because it also impeaches fogen. But the fact that they were both standing, when John came out was and is testimony that impeaches BOTH of their stories – and the defense couldn’t touch it.

    • disappointed says:

      Nef I agree. Just found it disrespectful to call the witness stupid. Lots of doxing going on and she risked the b.s. to tell what she knew and to be called stupid I think is out of bounds.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I don’t care if you think it’s disrespectful to call a random lady’s testimony stupid. I only want the best witnesses on the stand so we have the best chance of seeing the conviction of FatPhuckInstein.

        Unless you are her I fail to see why you continue to beat this dead horse. It’s my opinion. Let it go. Thanks. 🙂

        • cielo62 says:

          Tasha- because that “random person” took a lot of risk and courage to speak her truth. You strip that away from her with your petty judgements. She’s testifying against a murderwe. Don’t you have any respect for that? Trolls denigrate others.


      • Nef05 says:

        I agree. I don’t believe she is or was stupid. I believe she doesn’t have an assertive personality. But, I don’t believe she’s stupid.

      • disappointed says:

        tasha I continued to beat a dead horse because I have yet to see Professor LET anyone call a WITNESS stupid. I am done with you. You do not get it, please do not reply. You are not worth it.

      • Malisha says:

        She was not, by the way, stupid. She was intelligent and sensitive but she was not used to real courtrooms. If she was used to ANY courtrooms it would have been TV courtrooms which are notoriously faked-up.

        For years I tried to help mothers who were involved in domestic relations cases where the fathers were represented by lawyers like O’Mara. I considered my role trying to help these women withstand the horrors of the courtroom. I would say to them: “If there are 100 different things that can possibly happen in that courtroom, and you go over every single one with your lawyer, and you are prepared, thing #101 will happen and you will find yourself as lost as if you were dumped off an ocean liner without a life-saver.”

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Which brings me to the another point that made me sick to my stomach enough to get out of bed and come to this site looking for answers (after first attempting to clear up troll accusations)

      My questions is when does the state introduce what Zimmerman claims happened so that the evidence the jury is looking at ties to together better? For instance, we know Fogen claimed the last thing Marin did before he pulled the trigger was slam his head on concrete. When we looked at the location of Tray’s body in relationship to the sidewalk and the direction his feet were pointed WE realized that what Zimmerman said was not possible. However, the jurors cannot put this together without knowing exactly what Fogen said so how does the state overcome this issue?

      • Xena says:


        My questions is when does the state introduce what Zimmerman claims happened so that the evidence the jury is looking at ties to together better?

        The State does not present GZ’s defense. IF GZ presents a defense, the State gets opportunity to cross-examine and then present its rebuttal case.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Thanks Xena, that’s what I figured and that’s why it sucks that the judge did not allow the voice experts and it will suck if she doesn’t allow his previous NEN calls. Those things compound to make it more likely that he won’t testify simply because he will not have to. Let’s pray that he gets on the witness stand!

        • Xena says:


          Thanks Xena, that’s what I figured and that’s why it sucks that the judge did not allow the voice experts and it will suck if she doesn’t allow his previous NEN calls.

          Leatherman wrote a post about the Frye decision. I understand and agree with him. If the judge disallows GZ’s previous NEN calls, the State can still question the witness based on business records. The jury won’t hear the calls, but they will know how many NEN calls GZ made before 2/26/12.

          The ill-will is already demonstrated in that 2/26/12 NEN call, along with the fact that GZ told witnesses he had already called 911. Well, he knows the difference between calling 911 and the non-emergency number. No ambulance is dispatched when calling NEN. He wanted Trayvon to die.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tasha- the State does NOT introduce ANY of it. GZ had to introduce it HIMSELF for it to self defense claim. Otherwise what anybody else says is hearsay. GZ will have to get in the box to have the jury even consider self defense.


      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Ok thanks for the responses. I’m off to bed and sorry about the confusion earlier, I admit I got a little carried away but I think I’ve explained why, ad nauseum.

        Goodnight all.

    • concernedczen says:

      It’s should be clear if John Good came out and asked Zimmerman if he needed some help and Zimmerman didn’t respond that he did…then Zimmerman was not in a fight for his life.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I agree, from OUR perspective, she made some nail in the heart points but again, the perspective of the jury is the only one that counts and without knowing Zimmerman’s full stor(ies) I wonder if bringing out this type of witness at this time was effective. And I also took issue with her forcing O’Mara to pull information from her that she could have easily cleared up and thereby looked less…..well…stupid. Sorry, I can’t think of any other word.

      • Malisha says:

        In one of Fogen’s many descriptions, he claims to have told John Good, “Help me, he’s killing me.” John Good did not say that, though.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think W1 was thoughtful and intelligent. She looked as if she was bushwhacked by the defense. Likely the defense is going to run roughshod over all the prosecution witnesses. They’d best be more ready than they were today.

        I do feel as the defense continues to try to batter witnesses that the jury is going to see through it.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m glad this jury is sequestered if the media thinks W1 was impeached by her testimony. Her testimony is what it is and she’s but one piece in an intricate puzzle that will convict Fogen.

      • Nef05 says:

        I’m glad they’re sequestered, as well. Every station I saw carried segments of O’Mara’s cross, not one of them mentioned the “standing” point that impeaches the defendant and the only witness who even remotely, at one time, before recanting, just barely, kind of, corroborated fogen.

        It was beyond irritating.

  15. tashatexas77048 says:

    It is folly to run off people who come here to debate this case and stand up for Trayvon. You should also become better at identifying trolls. One thing they would never do is say anything positive about the only person that matters here and it’s not you, me or nor opinions but Trayvon Benjamin Martin. Stop the insulting madness. I thought you were above the fray??

    More to my point from earlier: Today was the day we finally saw pictures of Tray in the worst possible way and the jurors were shaken as well so it was an extreme folly for the state to discontinue it’s case where they presented experts of sorts and crime scene testimony to shift to the eye witness. They could have ended the day with another expert or even ended it with Tray’s photos so they haunt the jurors overnight but instead they allowed the most important part of the day be overshadowed by a silly witness who couldn’t just say, “yes I was sympathetic to the Martin’s who lost their child but it had nothing to do with my testimony because I could have just made up statements that are damaging to the defendant but I did not.” I am extremely disappointed with how the State ended today because what is at stake is too valuable for them to eff it up.

    • Shari says:

      You are a stranger on the internet you can type something nice about Trayvon while being in support of GZ offline. My first comment here had to be moderated, Prof. let her in so until he says something it’s a non issue.

      But anyone who uses the phrase “scheme team” is suspect.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I never said “scheme team” although the person who did say it was referring to O’Mara. What would be my purpose to be here as a troll and say something nice about anyone? Isn’t that the opposite of what trolls do? And this is not the CIA so there is no need for this covert behavior of which you speak so again chill. As a matter of fact, mosey on over to HLN or The Debate Politics forum and you’ll see I’m a professional Zimmerman basher under my name Tasha Harris on HLN or my screenname as the one here on debate I’m not the enemy.

    • Rachael says:

      The scheme team is the outhouse’s name for Trayvon’s family and their lawyers. And perhaps all of what they call the BGI- and perhaps even us – but it is really the name they use for Tracy, Sybrina and their lawers.

    • Xena says:

      At a time when Tracy and Sybrina should be uplifted; when good thoughts and (if a praying person) prayers should be sent forth for righteous judgment and wisdom for the prosecution, this page has turned into a page of personal defense. It is disruptive.

      This blog is not only administered by a person with legal experience as a death penalty defense attorney, but there are several other lawyers and people with experience in courts and the law who comment here. They understand that in every trial by jury, there are no guarantees. However, they also understand that judgment of winners and losers cannot be made in the first 2 days of a 2nd degree murder trial.

      The State is going to present its case in chief. The defense may or may not present its case. If it does, then the State gets to rebut.

      The prosecutors are not guys who only prosecute shop lifters or defendants caught holding the smoking gun who plead guilty. They are legal bull-dogs. And, the right thing to do when the opposing party lies, is to present the truth and during closing argument, knock them out of the ballpark.

      There are times we need to see the middle from the beginning in order to reach the proper end/goal.

      Now, can we get back to discussing the case? I’ll start off. Let’s take a vote. Is GZ going to take the stand?

      • Judy75201 says:

        @Xena, I think they will not put fogen on the stand and will say it is because he is medicated (due to the “trauma” doncha know, and a medicated person is not reliable lol).

        • Xena says:

          @Judy75201. Tonight on Anderson Cooper, he asked O’Mara if GZ was going to take the witness stand. O’Mara said that unless the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not kill in self-defense, that he will not put on a defense. If they meet their burden is when he decide whether to put GZ on the stand.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- that doesn’t make sense to me. The state doesn’t have to prove anything but murder 2. The self defense thing GZ will have to bring up. Is MOM just being confusing on purpose?

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. O’Mara is deceptive. He sincerely believes that the state will testify on GZ’s behalf — give GZ’s entire story and then O’Mara closes with argument that the State admitted to GZ’s story without proving it false.

            But, he forgot John Guy’s opening statement. 🙂

      • Malisha says:

        I also don’t believe they will risk putting Fogen on the stand, considering how he messed up on Hannity. They could hardly let him say “I waive my SYG hearing” by himself!

      • disappointed says:

        Not willingly. If he has to take the stand he will be crispy toast when any of the 3 Prosecutors get done with him. Thanks for the pep talk.

      • DruDo says:

        Xena, I think he will…but will be up all night the night before, after his Calgon bath, with O’Scumbag and Duane Toddleberry, rehearsing his deception and lies. I expect he’ll frequently nod off and have to be nudged awake because he’ll also be loaded with I don’t wanna face the music tranqs.

        • Xena says:

          @DruDo. Just after I posted that question, Anderson Cooper interviewed O’Mara. Based on O’Mara’s responses to Anderson, it’s my guess that GZ will have to take the stand, but only after O’Mara requests another delay to prep him.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Exactly, Xena. O’Mara will not put fogen on the stand unless he has no other desperate choice. He’s already laying the framework. Because he know’s what is coming.

      • type1juve says:

        Xena, I think GZ is just arrogant enough to take the stand if he thinks he might be convicted. It appears he is very involved if not completely running the show on the defense side.

    • cielo62 says:

      Tasha- that’s the point; you rarely say anything positive about what us going on! If its not “perfect” in your eyes, it’s automatically a disaster or a sign of corruption. Please. Also you do abuse the rest in this site. WE are the community here. We are united in fighting for justice BUT we are not non beings that you can screech at. Everything you say is negative and demoralizing adding nothing of value to the discussion. That, me dear, is a hallmark of a troll.


      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Well you were wrong and mistook my passion for being a troll. There were two errors here, my presentation and your interpretation of my presentation. Let’s start over.

  16. tashatexas77048 says:

    I clearly presented my reasons for being upset with the state allowing today to end with a stupid witness on the stand who was needless evasive. I didn’t attack anyone here and my very first post to this site said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about please donate to this site.” That is not troll behavior.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The witness was NOT stupid.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I think the witness was STUPID. It has nothing to do with you nor anyone else so this silly attack on me because I thought she did poorly should stop. You are supposed to be on the side of what’s right, so act like it!

        • cielo62 says:

          Tasha- we object to the way you are abusing the integrity of this blog. At least I DO. No the sky is not falling. No the witnesses are not stupid. No the “fix ” is NOT in. So behave like a rational adult. You were disappointed in the prosecution? Ok. You felt the witness could he lave been better prepared by Bernie? Ok. But calling for a mistrial and all your negative histrionics are not welcome here.


        • CYBER FIGHT………

          Hang on…lemmie get my popcorn….

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • disappointed says:

        mountainmanpat- roflmao! You are funny. Glad to see this evening.

    • Judy75201 says:

      That is ingratiating behavior.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Judy, I noticed from reading back that you were nearly first in line on the “she’s a troll” bandwagon. Listen, I’m not a troll and the founder of this website can read ALL of my previous comments and find that out rather quickly. Chill out.

    • disappointed says:

      It is rude to call the witness stupid. 1st After Bernie did recross we found out NO ONE ever asked her the direction. Maybe she thought they had.
      2nd So what if she liked or signed a petition. When the defense puts their witnesses on they will more than likely liked his face book or donated to his scum fund.
      It is all in the delivery. Maybe what you call stupid could be nerves. They are not only testifying in court they KNOW their testimony is LIVE on National Television. jmo

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        The stupid part was to say she had sympathy for the Zimmerman’s when we ALL KNOW this lady, like 99.999% of people with one ounce of decency have no sympathy for that scummy family. O’Mara even knows they are scum that’s why he didn’t believe her lol

      • disappointed says:

        tasha Maybe when she signed or liked whatever she had sympathy for BOTH, it has been a while ago. Maybe she does feel bad for both families. We do not have to like what that family is about but only 1 pulled the trigger. You can say whatever BUT as a Mother who has lost a son to violence I can say I do not hate the Families of the men involved even though they believe the same way as their family members that killed my son and many others.
        You believe what you want. I have faith this woman is being honest. If you think she lied how do you know anything she said is the truth? To call her a liar for one thing, then she must be lying about everything else? Or are you saying she only lied about feeling bad for his family? How do you know it was only that she lied about since you think she is stupid and a liar.

    • Malisha says:

      I read back over your posts, tasha, and I didn’t really see anything trollish. I think what happened is that people felt aggrieved at the combination of misbehavior on the part of defense counsel and obnoxious displays of overt and covert racism that have been all over the place for weeks and months, and when W-1 testified and you got so riled up about her less-than-stellar performance, many people felt indignant and even outraged and I think many people also felt that your criticism of the prosecutors was extreme. They’re not perfect but they aren’t throwing the case. Is there a fix in? I was very suspicious of it for a long time and I am frank to say that I still find myself thinking it possible about 17% of the time. But I also see evidence that the prosecution, for one reason or another (how would I ever know) is really doing the right thing with this case.

      A friend of mine who is a lawyer and who has a terrible habit of being such a perfectionist that it is almost impossible to deal with her has e-mailed me a frustrated message insisting that “he’s going to get away with it, all because of stupid mistakes” and I haven’t yet designed my answer. I think we’re so bruised by knowing how often people like Fogen DO get away with their evil AND by knowing that the SPD tried very hard to let him get away with it that a touch feels like a stab.

      If you’re a troll, which I don’t see, personally, then OK you fooled me; maybe that’s not much to be proud of, perhaps I’m gullible. But I think it’s more a case of you being very touchy about things going wrong at the trial and of course, things DO go wrong at EVERY trial because it is an imperfect process.

      Hang in there. If you’re not a troll (which I’m betting on), just try to moderate your reactions so they don’t get experienced like two pokes in the eye with a sharp stick. 🙄

      • Jun says:

        I think that was witness 2 today

        witness 1 is the one who says it was a kid making weird noise and she saw a struggle…

        witness 1 lives on the corner on the across from witness 11

      • type1juve says:

        Thank you for this post Malisha… always the voice of reason!

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I am deeply, deeply offended that you would call the witness “stupid.” She was under siege for reporting the individuals were running – in all three interviews she assumed they understood the running AS SHE SAW IT IN HER MIND – and none of those officials asked her for the direction.

      This was never disputed or questioned until today. SHE CONTINUED TO REPORT WHAT SHE SAW. It is her SWORN TESTIMONY.

      She did not waver.

      You suck.

  17. Sophia33 says:

    If there is anyone who posts on HP, you can see my posting history. I know that there are a lot of things that have been said and done against the Martin family, but I have not been a part of it.

    Again, look at my history on HP. Same title name sophia 33. I have nothing to hide. Nothing.

    I am far from the enemy.

    As I said, my original intent towards becoming a part of this blog was to thank LLMPapa for the videos, which I have posted numerous times on HP in fighting against people supporting Zimmerman

    I’ve done that. But I will say again, thank LLMPapa and thanks Mr. Leatherman.

    I hope we do get justice for Trayvon!


  18. Tee says:

    I often wonder what the world looks like to other people. Is it just me or do people not see the wrong in this? This is not about race, this is about a kid just 3 weeks into his 17th birthday being gunned down. I’m crying right now as I write this, when is it ok to kill a kid within feet of his home, A kid with no weapon, a kid that ran. How in the hell we as Americans defend a man that killed a kid and because our preconceived notion on black being violent he may walk free, he’s defended for fighting off a “thug.” It’s a sad day when it becomes ok to kill a child you’ve been following, a child that tried to get away from you by running, then have so many say Trayvon deserved it. If this was a girl what would we tell our daughter huh? “Don’t run baby from a man following you in the dark, he means you no harm, even if he gets out of his car to look for you, you dont have to fight for your life if he catches up to you.” when we know as parents we Teach our kids to ” fight baby, kick scream & fight for you life.” It’s crazy that black people gotta teach their kids not to run from stranger, not to fight for their life, just take what the world gives you. If this young man laying on that cold wet ground was a girl or a white boy this would be a very different case. The world defended Travis Alexander and all his action bad and good. ” even if he said or did those things he didnt deserved to die for that” not Trayvon huh, he don’t get the same treatment. Didnt you know black males kill and white males don’t. It’s not about race it’s about the lenses we view the world out of.

    • chi1224 says:

      Tee I feel exactly the same way. Great post and thank you.

    • Judy75201 says:

      The world IS changing, and that is what has the pigs who sanction racism, however secretly, terrified. This case is a world-changer, in my opinion. Keep hope.

    • Shari says:

      You are correct there should be 0% Fogen support. His NEN call was enough in my view. He said he was following we HEARD the wind in the phone we knew he was CHASING a CHILD AT NIGHT ARMED. This is 100% wrong behavior and no parent even Zidiot parent would stand for it. It’s scary to me, I guess it’s hunting season on black boys. What year is this, 1812???? Trayvon can’t walk on the street? I walked everywhere as a young teen, yes even at dusk and I had excellent parents. Economic conditions are tough for people and I would bet that MOST teens don’t have a car, they like freedom of movement so they CHOOSE WALKING.

    • DruDo says:

      Tee, it’s not just you. That’s why we’re all here-people who care-people who are all different in some way, but united in wanting justice for an innocent teenage boy who harmed no one, did nothing wrong and is vilified by lying, unscrupulous lawyers and the murderer who will say and do anything to avoid taking responsibility for what he did. Just as he’s avoided blame and consequences for his other acts of aggression and violence towards others in the past, he continues to do so because he always gets away with it. He ALWAYS blames someone else, but it’s ALWAYS someone else who suffers as a result of his actions and he never does. It’s a sad, sickening feeling to know that there are those who don’t care what he did, it’s only who he did it to. Ignorance and meanness is taught and learned well. For awhile, I really thought things were getting better, but this has brought the snakes out from under the rocks where they hide from the light of day and I’m disheartened to know that. I wonder all the time what’s wrong with people and if it will ever end. Children are abused and murdered, parents are disrespected, elderly people are mistreated. I guess all we can do is to speak up for what’s right, don’t be afraid, and be strong in our hearts.

  19. Dennis says:

    I learned a few things while reading an article where Jason Johnson grades the prosecution and defense opening statements.

    *Fogen apparently has fight training. I had only known that he worked as a bouncer for a bit.

    *Fogen had his gun cocked and ready when he left the car. I am no gun expert, but I do believe cocking the gun means to pull the hammer back. You only do that if you are prepared to fire the weapon. This is going to be very damaging for Fogen. Newer pistols like Glocks don’t have hammers anymore, and are ready to fire once a bullet is chambered.

    The only hurdle I see for the prosecution is to make the jury understand how Fogen got his wounds. Is BDLR going to argue that Fogen caused the wounds himself in the pursuit, or will he say that Martin was defending himself from his attacker? Obviously, the wounds were not life threatening, and not even serious enough to warrant a visit to the emergency room. But I still think a jury of 6 women will want to know how Fogen got those wounds.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Forensic evidence indicates that Trayvon did NOT slam, punch or smother Trayvon.

      Bye, bye to gz’s story.

    • boyd says:

      they have a plan , recall they said no Zimmerman DNA/Blood on Trayvon’s hands and any fight type mark was found on his weak left hand in opening statement so it’s coming.

      I don’t think they should have to prove where he got the damages from, since he’s a liar, it could have been gun recoil, falling down, or just wrestling

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      oops…..what I wrote should have read:

      Forensic evidence indicates that Trayvon did NOT slam, punch or smother *GZ*.

      Bye, bye to gz’s story.

    • Dave says:

      *West, in his opening statement, admitted that the killer had taken boxing and wrestling classes at Kokkapelli’s Gym.

      * His gun is a double action only semiauto. It is designed to be carried with a full magazine and a live round in the chamber. The internal striker is cocked and released when the trigger is pulled. It does not have or need a manual safety. The long, heavy travel of the trigger serves to prevent accidental discharges. Functionally these guns are much like the doubleaction revolvers that were standard with most police departments until the switch to semiautomatics in recent decades.

      I’d like to know where those scratches came from too but they are NOT proof that the defendant was in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury and that is the standard for “justifiable use of deadly force” (selfdefense).

      • PiranhaMom says:


        You want to know how Zimmerman got those back-of-the head (minor) lacerations (in a area where the scalp will bleed profusely)?

        Let me quote Zimmerman directly:

        “He came out of the bushes.”

        Zimmerman raced down Retreat View Circle to spot his quarry (one of those “assholes” who “always get away'”) that he believed was escaping through the back entrance.

        When he did not see him, Zimmerman darted between the condo buildings to see if his target was in the grassy dog-walk area.

        Cutting between buildings, he tangled with the landscaping. It’s February. No leaves, lots of bare branches. He tripped, or more likely just ducked his head and ran through, catching his scalp on a couple of low-hanging branches.

        Yep. “He came out of the bushes.”

        When Zimmerman spouted that line to Serino at al during the re-enactment on-site the next day, it was with an air of reality. No conjecture. But — it WAS NOT Trayvon who emerged “from the bushes.”

        And “the bushes” wasn’t that puny 18″ high landscaping that they were all looking at. (I was surprised they didn’t laugh in Zimmerman’s face – but then, they wanted to keep him talking.)

        He spouted what he recalled the night before, because that’s what caused his back-of-the head “injuries.” Taller bushes, with bare branches around 5 ft. off the ground.

        To his schnozz, it was the Kel-Tek kickback.

        • Shari says:

          I have watched a lot of Crime TV like American Justice and I have to say what u posted has the ring of truth to it. Criminal defendants will usually mix truth with lies to explain away, minimize, or cover their own guilt. Like it was said before, whatever Fogen did he blames on the kid. The nose scratch-recoil. The head scratch-hiding in the bushes like a creeper in the rain.

          People really aren’t that creative or quick thinking. The truth of what actually happened is at the forefront of his mind so he used it.

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think it’s incumbent upon the prosecution to prove (or even figure out) HOW Fogen got the injuries. Serino said that they were “capillary type cuts or lacerations not coincident with” a total beat-down. What the prosecution has to show is that the injuries do not prove that Fogen reasonably believed he was in dangerous of serious physical injury or death. MUCH DIFFERENT! Think of it: if a few scratches meant that self-defense was to be assumed, or even prima facie, then any of us could basically kill anyone we wanted to kill, so long as we sustained a few boo boos in the process. There is no constitutional guarantee that you can kill somebody without getting any bumps or bruises.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I think all they have to prove is that Trayvon did NOT inflict the injuries. And that proof is rock-solid.

      • Judy75201 says:

        @Cielo, BAM, there it is. No DNA,no cuts (except for that minor 1/8 inch cut BELOW the knuckle of his LEFT hand), and no bruising or any other indication that Trayvon had grabbed hold of fogen’s head and smashed it 24 times into the concrete, or even sucker punched him, or even touched fogen in any way at all.

        That little piggy fogen is prisonbound.

      • Dave says:

        They do not have to prove that Trayvon did not inflict those trivial wounds on the killer. If Trayvon reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or bodily injuriy (and I believe that he did) he had every right to do whatever was reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to prevent it. The aggressor in a violent encounter cannot claim self defense unless the aggressee’s response is grossly disproportionate to the threat.

      • Judy75201 says:

        But Dave, the very fact that there is no DNA or other physical evidence that Trayvon did anything to or even ever touched fogen does prove that there was no actual physical encounter beyond the murder.

  20. willisnewton says:

    What’s the strategy meeting for each side tonight going to be like?

    The defense needs to consider that perhaps BDLR and Guy aren’t going to bring in anything from the SPD interviews

    • Nef05 says:

      It was (I believe) either Xena or Malisha that said they would ask for a directed verdict when the prosecution rests. I agree, and I also agree that they won’t get it. That said, if the defense has not considered long before now that the prosecution will hold the statements to force fogen to testify they are stupid, as well as liars.

      • Xena says:


        That said, if the defense has not considered long before now that the prosecution will hold the statements to force fogen to testify they are stupid, as well as liars.

        HEAR YE, HEAR YE!!! Mark O’Mara just told Anderson Cooper that unless the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not kill in self-defense, that he will then decide whether to put on a defense and put GZ on the stand.

        So, as it stands now, O’Mara has no defense.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Xena –

        Projecting “confidence” to his followers? He has no defense and he knows it.

  21. Trained Observer says:

    On drive home, CNN’s Anderson Cooper interviewed O’Mara.

    When he asked if he knew about West’s knock-knock joke plan for yesterday’s opener, MOM said “no” and admitted that bon mot had failed to amuse.

    MOM’s explanation? I am not making this up. .

    “Don had been frustrated” by this, that, and the other, MOM said, and therefore had tried to introduce a little “levity” into proceedings.

    Yes, he said “levity.”.

    Since this was XM radio, I have no idea about the expression, if any, on Cooper’s face.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Levity? Really?! In front of the parents of a murdered boy?! They are just as calleous as their client.

    • Malisha says:

      “He was frustrated” is always the excuse O’Mara gives for any wrongdoing by defendant or by the defense TEAM. Remember that Fogen lied about the money because he was frustrated, frightened and mistrustful? Now WEST is frustrated. See, stuff happens!

  22. Judy75201 says:

    I’m convinced. Two trolls.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I made a mistake twice. I meant to say toward the “T”. Whatever.

      • Puck says:

        I’m a sociologist. As in, advanced degrees in sociology. I observe and analyze social behavior, and by now I’m fuckin awesome at it.

        Here’s my hypothesis as a social scientist: Your chicken little reactions about the tiniest prosecution setback are, I believe, deliberate attempts to demoralize us. I’m seeing the same tropes throughout your posts, transposed to the immediate contexts of different trial events. I will continue my participant observation as usual, observing the sociology of this place, and I’ll make a note to look out for you. Here’s to the good times! Justice for Trayvon!

      • groans says:

        Puck said:

        Here’s my hypothesis as a social scientist: Your chicken little reactions about the tiniest prosecution setback are, I believe, deliberate attempts to demoralize us.

        Holy cow, Puck. “Deliberate attempts to demoralize”?! Have you ever tested this hypothesis of yours in populations like, say, people watching NFL playoffs, Superbowl, or March Madness?

        Maybe you’re “fuckin awesome,” as you claim … what with your “advanced degrees” and all. ( 🙄 ) But I thought social scientists were more attuned to nuances and complexities than I see reflected in this hypothesis of yours.

        • cielo62 says:

          Groans- when you have your own PhD then come back and cause trouble. There is a significant difference between trash talk and the demoralizing used between enemies. If you don’t know that difference, maybe a few college classes might help you out.


    • Puck says:

      I detected something untoward about the two of them. Sophia33 is all chicken little, convinced that the tiniest thing means zomg the fix is in!!!! even yesterday — the very first day of trial. They both stood out to me right away.

      • Judy75201 says:

        It’s a relay team. Amazin!!!

      • Judy75201 says:

        I did, Puck, and it is priceless!

      • Sophia33 says:

        Puck as I have stated already, I have seen this way to often. As I said, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell to name a few. Ayiana Jones was the most recent case. There is always a “yeah but” as to why their murderers walk free.

        Everyone says that the media is on Trayvon’s side. To me, from my vantage point, the media is on Zimmerman’s side. As I pointed out last night after watching HLN, they never ask the important questions. NEVER.

        Last week, a police officer was caught on tape shooting a 7-year old black girl in the head. The A&E television program “48 hours” caught it on tape. The producers are up for perjury for not producing the tape. The officer shot from the porch, not from the house. Yet he claimed he shot from inside the house and the gun went off because the grandmother tried to grab his gun. But the tape shows something different. Completely different. The result? A hung jury. A HUNG JURY! A seven-year old is dead!

        I may be a bit cynical for your tastes. But I have seen this time and time and time and time again. I have been disappointed time and time and time again. It seems that they look for the least little thing not to bring these folks to justice. The judicial system of this country has shown me time and time again, that a black life doesn’t mean as much as a white life. Heck the judicial system in this country has shown me that it’s not fair or equitable to blacks at all.

        There is always an excuse for calling all of this anything that what it is. Pure good old-fashioned American racism.

        So yes, I get excited when I feel the prosecution makes a mistake. The reason being that I know and have seen from experience that the least little reason they can find to let a killer of one of us go free they seem to find it. It’s real!

        • Puck says:

          There’s always that one big case that goes right and makes an indelible impact on society and in history. This could very well be the one.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I’m going to leave the “I get excited when I feel the prosecution makes a mistake” to you Puck. 🙂

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @my fellow social scientist

        i’ll be you’re puckleberry 😉

      • fauxmccoy says:


        of course i read your excerpt – wish i could read the entire document.

    • Sophia33 says:

      You know what?! I made a mistake. I meant to correct the mistake. But then I said the same thing again. But if you look at what I said in context, anyone with real common sense could see what I was trying to say.

      You said that O’mara was terrified of Witness #1. I said:

      As he should be. It takes away the whole “I was attacked at the ‘T’” nonsense. Because the natural question becomes, “Well George how did you get away from the “T”?

      Then I made a mistake and said:

      “Why were you running from the “T”?”

      I then tried to correct it, not realizing that that said the same thing again.

      But again, if you look at what I said in context, you can see what I was trying to say from the 4 sentences before.

      I have done nothing but support Trayvon Martin’s family. And my ONLY criticism I have had has been out of concern about the prosecution blowing the case. So that makes me a troll.

      You know what? Whatever!!! I’m through with you too.


      • Puck says:

        Is it dead?

      • Shari says:

        Your usage of the term “scheme team” outs you. But anyway this is not my site and I am new here as well.

        I have two sons and if any one of them had been shot dead in a backyard by a crazed vigilante I would do ANYTHING to bring him to justice. Sybrina has the patience of 100 saints to wait one year while internet racists trash her son.

  23. Woow! says:

    Lets see what Jon/John has to say when he testifies. If he says Fogen was traveling from the T prosecution will know that he is lying.

  24. disappointed says:

    LLMPapa- Bond hearing footage! Can you check bald head for lumps and bumps? Those should be healed by then, right? If you have time, PLEASE!!

    • BillT says:

      you can see he has a natural ridge starting right before the area his hairline is receding on both side of his head…look at him tomorrow those ridges can be seen now…..somebody really musta whipped west upside his head if you just go by lumps!

      • disappointed says:

        Bill thank you. After the drama in court today that is what stuck out to me. If that is the natural curve of the skull I do not understand why they would try to say it is a bump because it could be easily refuted, except fat ass grew his hair for a reason. A reason could be hiding the lumps and bumps.

      • Rachael says:

        Aren’t there people who read head lumps the way they read palms? I’m serious. Now I have to look that up because I’m sure there are.

      • BillT says:

        phrenologists from memory…….

    • disappointed says:

      Papa I watched bond hearing. I have very bad eye sight therefore I cannot answer my own question. I did find still photos at axiom and again eyes are to bad to see bumps. Can anyone tell if he had those bumps either before or after “sidewalk beating?” Link is from axiom.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I noticed today during the “lump” segment that fogen happened to have an identical “lump” on the top of his left and right side of his head, lol. The “lumps” are going nowhere (i.e., they are a permanent part of the scenery, like the “black” eyes).

      • disappointed says:

        Thanks guys. I do have a hard time focusing at a distance but these eyes have seen a lot of things in 50++ years. They are getting tired. Even with bi-focals.

      • Sleuth says:


        That’s exactly what I said earlier about the “lumps” on each side of his head, etc. Just looks like that’s the way his head is shaped. Nor did I see some teeny weeny cut O’Dirty was trying to point out on the lump and the left and right. Some men just have naturally bumpy/lumpy heads.

  25. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I am telling you guys…there is something significant about Tayvon’s photo button on his shirt.

    How did Fogen see this button that was on a dark grey hoodie in the dark and rain? How did he know that Trayvons hoodie was grey instead of black. Was there really enough light at the clubhouse where Trayon walked past Fogen’s truck for him to see this?

    Did Fogen see Trayvon up close in a more lighted place before he called NEN? Or maybe someone else saw Trayvon up close in a well lit place and relayed this information to Fogen.

    • willisnewton says:

      Good point -GZ saw TM at the mail kiosk and then up closer under the street lamp south of the kiosk as the teen passed his car.

      It’s clear GZ was never parked in the clubhouse parking lot. Instead he parked on TTL facing the mail kiosk.

      • disappointed says:

        willisnewton- if that is true he has some ‘splaining to do. Fogen in video walk thru says he sees Trayvon at FT’s home. He pulls off at clubhouse to call NEN, within seconds he already has Trayvon walking toward him to check him out! His story does not make since and his timing is way off, IF the jury pays attention to detail he is DONE. If they are not into the detail well than I worry. I think to be on a jury attention to detail must be a top priority.

    • Brandy says:

      Hi ChrisNY! I like the way you think and I really think there is a lot creedence to what you are saying! Blinky Fogens cell phone records will show the truth! 🙂

    • boyd says:

      the streets are narrow, I did not see any sidewalks so he could have been 10 feet from him in a car

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I also wonder about the 711 bag that was found empty on the sidewalk (marker 2), why was it empty and the Arizona drink and skittles were found in Trayvons pocket, TM’s blood on the skittles, which clearly shows that they were not there before he was shot.

      Did Fogen take these items out of the bag and put them in Trayvons pockets? Why would he do that?

      • KittySP says:

        ChrisNY- those have been ?s that I asked as well. 7-11 video will show that he puts candy in hoodie pocket, but the can is in the bag…not sure if in his attempt to detain Trayvon, the can falls from the bag, and later placed in his pocket by GZ. Otherwise, it’s a small window off opportunity for Trayvon to retrieve on his own. GZ grabs hold of him immediately, Rachel(DD) says she here’s what sounds like ‘bumping’ and Trayvon say “get off me!”

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        ChrisNY, I mentioned that last year when we first began examining evidence, and I brought up that I felt like Fogen cut through some buildings and cut Trayvon off at the path. I forgot who it was, but someone disagreed with me about both. Because I remember the clerk giving Trayvon a bag for his items. When I saw the layout of the complex that’s when I felt like GZ cut Trayvon off at the path, that and the fact that GZ lived there too. Another thing that made me feel that was when he claimed he did not know the name of the street. I do not know anyone that does not know the surrounding streets in their neighborhood, especially when they have to pass them on a daily basis.

        I even felt like GZ’s father-in-law and him had a burglar ring scam. Shellie’s father spent time in jail for that, but it was dismissed by everyone, so I left it alone.

  26. Judy75201 says:

    O’Mara is terrified of Witness 1, that’s why he attacked her.

  27. boyd says:

    Hey, did you see the look on Fogen’s face after witness #1 testified.

    for the first time I saw the real Fogen. I finally saw what few have seen. her story was identical to her previous stories except the direction thingie. so forget the facebook thing MOM, and other witnesses will be coming that are pro-trayvon too.

  28. LLMPapa says:

    Something else Witness 1 said today that’s interesting is the timing of her own movements within her kitchen and what she saw.

    -She looked out her patio door and saw arm movement of two people STANDING.

    -Went back to turn her stove off, and heard a shot

    -Less than 15 seconds later, by the time she could get back to the door and look out, the only thing she saw was a dead body lying in the grass! GZ was NOWHERE in sight!

    Not a bit like the song and dance the killer gave in his reenactment video.

  29. Brandy says:

    Great video LLMPapa! I wish this video could find its way to the Prosecutors!

    I would also like to say THANK YOU very much for all the excellent work you have done with the making of these very informative videos! Your time and hard work to get the truth out to the masses is very much appreciated 🙂

  30. Jun says:

    I think Raymundo was a good witness

    He shows them that there was no dire need to have to shoot Trayvon and attempted to save him

    I think the honor he displayed did the case good

  31. smokeegyrl says:

    I don’t think Tasha is a Trayvon supporter… she sounds like one from the hate page on Facebook that likes to stir up trouble. KB is her initials.

    • Sleuth says:

      Are you saying she’s a troll?

    • cielo62 says:

      Smokeegyrl- my feelings exactly.


    • Unabogie says:

      People, please. I know her from another forum and she’s not a troll. She’s just upset. Can y’all cut her some slack?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        if you know her from another site, perhaps you could ask her kindly to be cool and get to know this place before acting out. it would be the kindest thing for all involved. you’ve been around here quite a while and you know this is not a dumping ground.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I can give her some slack, I just wish people wouldn’t speculate. The witness’s are very important in this case and they are the ones that count. We can give our opinions over and over but they are ones that were there when this situation happened. Witn 1 has been consistent in what she has said 3x’s… If you are going to support somebody… than have a little faith in them… don’t throw tomatoes until you listen closely to everything… Don’t just go by with the defense says… L I S T E N~!

    • Sleuth says:


      What a shame. I’m sadden by all this. Just know ain’t nothing hidden from the Almighty. Not even trolls.

      If they are, they might be more comfortable over at HP, or better yet, a tree stump, because they aren’t going to find anything here except the TRUTH, and a wonderful group of people wanting nothing more than justice for Trayvon.

  32. Sleuth says:

    I knew when I saw “The Robert Plant Girls” in the courtroom today. FB was going to coming up.

    I guess we can expect the same for Mary and Selma.

  33. LLMPapa says:

    Today’s Witness 1 had , previously, never stated a direction of the movement she heard for one simple reason.


    Her sketch, however, supports a south to north direction of movement with the “arms” she referred to being drawn SOUTH of her residence.

    Her sister, Witness 2 is the one who gave the movement a stated direction of “towards the T”.

    It’s all in this vid:

    • Ms.X says:

      This is a great video. You are a great videographer. You have done a great service for this case. You have done the Lord’s work & I thank you along with all the others.

    • Sleuth says:


      Thank you so much for clearing everything up. I remember listening to Ms. Bahador’s recorded statement when they were first released as part of the media evidence dump. When I finished listening to hers, I listened to a few more.

      I clicked on another one and said to myself, “Gee, this witness sure sounds like the female witnessed I listened moments earlier, their statements sure sound similar”.

      It took me awhile, but I finally realized these women both lived in the same house. This was several months ago, sometimes last year.

      So when Ms. Bahadoor was on the witness stand today, I kept wondering why there seemed to be so much confusion about the “Left to Right Movement” because I was so sure I heard it on one of the recorded statements made earlier. I was actually expecting them to just play the tape,

      I was so sure to the point of thinking the defense had forgotten to listen to it.

      Thanks again for all you continue to do for obtaining justice for Trayvon.

      Be blessed my friend.

    • Malisha says:

      Running south to north OR north to south, they would be running AWAY from W-1’s house. Inexpert questioning!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks, Papa. Great stuff as always.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks, Papa. I thought I might have had linked the wrong video. upthread.

    • groans says:

      Thanks, LLMPapa. I KNEW I remembered some south-to-north movement evidence from those sisters! Probably your video had etched it in my mind. So apparently one sister told Serino about that, and the other sister was never asked but had the same recollection.

      I’m still troubled by W1 today saying that she was in the kitchen and her sister (W2) was upstairs. Yet, in her taped interview, W2 says that she (W2) was in the kitchen.

  34. from the moment she got on the stand i found her demeanor and testimony perfectly credible.
    what she said was she HEARD ppl moving from left to right, but SAW 2 ppl STANDING, at two separate periods of time.

    for the jury, at this moment, this testimony is innocuous because they DON’T know the significance of her statements.
    so if i were them i wouldn’t know YET what she could have been lying about. they don’t know gz’s exact story about him being *beat in place* the whole time.

    another thing, at first when omar went on the attack my stomach seized just a little.. UNTIL i realized he was playing a stupid word game!
    almost immediately i remembered some witness mentioning the direction going north to south or whatever and MLPapa’s video!
    so i went back to washing the damn dishes and waited!

    the media is acting a fool about her, but BDLR cleared it up for the jury. he doesn’t need to satisfy the pundits.

  35. bettykath says:

    Every time Mantei opens his mouth I hear Garrison from JFK. LOL.

  36. Sophia33 says:


    I don’t know who the heck Tasha is. So I am not her sock. I have no need to hide behind socks. I am fully capable of saying whatever I need to say, as you can see.

    And just because I was upset about the testimony of W#1 does not make me a troll. Just because I am passionate about wanting to see justice for a young man who was killed in cold-blood does not make a troll. Just because I have a different perspective than you does not make me a troll.

    I only know about this site because I have used certain posts on on off over the year from it in my posts on other sites, most notably HP. It has great information.

    The only reason I requested to join this site was about a week ago I saw that LLMPapa posts here and I wanted to first and foremost thank him for his videos. I also saw a video that he had mentioning the Professor. I imagine because of all of the hate going around, he chose not to allow comments on his Youtube videos. I wasn’t able to leave the kind message I wanted to leave.

    I thought this was an area to discuss the case. Because this area appears exclusively to be Martin supporters, I thought that it would be safer to express some things more so than other places.

    None of that makes me a troll.

    Peace and blessings,

    • bettykath says:

      Sophia, I don’t see you as a troll. Hang around and ask questions and offer opinions.

    • Malisha says:

      Sophia, I don’t think you’re a troll and I don’t think many or even any of us think(s) that either. I appreciate your comments. Please don’t get stressed out about that; we need our nerves intact because West and O’Mara have been DANCING on them and they have NO RHYTHM! 😀

    • boyd says:

      no worries I was upset too.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sophia- I apologize sincerely. For a series of comments you fully backed the deranged hysterics of tashatexas. It I am not hesitant to label it a troll and negative disruption. I jumped wrongly to the conclusion that you supported her/him/it. I am sorry. I have been here a long time. And I don’t trust a sudden tsunami of negativity over imagined disasters on one days activities.


    • groans says:


      I’ve been here for a long time, and there should be no question in any reasonable person’s mind about where I stand on this case.

      Nevertheless, I raised realistic criticisms and concerns yesterday, and Cielo “labeled” and personally insulted me to others – dismissing me and my thoughts as if I’m nothing more than an annoying gnat in her little world. Not unlike she’s done to you and Tashatexas today.

      Cielo has some problem accepting thoughts that are outside her limited “box,” lately – and apparently feels “entitled” to attack others merely for expressing something she does not favor.

      It’s not you – it’s Cielo who has a problem lately and can’t deal with diverse thoughts and perceptions.

    • type1juve says:

      Sophia33, I do not see you as a troll. I see you as someone voicing your opinions and sometimes your frustrations. I think that many of us here are so invested in this case that sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us. I have done it and been attacked for it. I could be wrong, but I have noticed that some of the people here who I think are AA tend to come across as negative in their comments if it appears the case is not going well. They are then chided for their opinions, almost to the point of bullying. I understand that we all want to stay positive. That doesn’t mean that we can’t engage in respectful discourse about this case. After all, we all want justice for Trayvon Martin. I think we should be mindful of the different lens that each of us view this case. We all bring different life experiences here and that can’t help but affect the importance of the outcome to each of us individually. There are many wonderful, intelligent people here. Please don’t let a few who think that their opinions are the only ones that count run you off. I hope I have not offended anyone here for that was certainly not my intent.

      • cielo62 says:

        Type2- a key word you used was “respectful”. Some people here who blast everything from “frustration” are not bring mindful of their boundaries neither has there been respect for the witnesses. That is totally unnecessary. A blog is not a journal. There are people here engaged in conversation. If one wants to engage in histrionics, bashing and witness disrespect, there are other blogs that specialize in it.


  37. disappointed says:

    So someone thinks this is a loss because someone may have or may not have signed a petition. How does that work when the defense puts on rebuttal. If someone donated to his scum fund does that mean they are bias or a liar or what? Good for gander type situation?

    • Sophia33 says:

      Personally, I didn’t think the FB was as big of a deal as her appearing to be rattled. I do think though it would have been better for the Prosecution to bring it up so that they didn’t appear to be blindsided.

  38. boyd says:

    ha ha witness #2 her sister said left to right. looking out the back. so witness #1 used her sister words. they both saw stuff, one from downstairs, one from upstairs. at the same time FDLE asked #2 the direction,

    on audtio the 6:20 mark on march 20. I knew she said left to right but wrong witness the sister

    • Trained Observer says:

      @boyd — thanks for digging it out. Witnesses should be hung for failing to answer questions that were never asked during preliminary investigations .What she said today in court is what counts.

    • bettykath says:

      From what the witness says today, she discussed what she saw with her sister, not the other way around.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Makes sense. Somebody lives in a townhouse with a sister, roommate, significant other, spouse or whatever. There’s a shooting — a fatal shooting — in their back yard. What two people wouldn’t compare notes on who saw what?

  39. Xena says:

    I can see O’Mara’s plan, and how the State is going to bury it. O’Mara is depending on the testimony of John. That is why he asked the witness today if she saw GZ staggering around. But, John has recanted. Not only that, but his recorded statement was not credible — it sounded as though he wanted to be special and know more than he saw.

    John had better get prepared because West and O’Mara are going to try to eat him alive once the State presents his final statement where he admits NOT seeing Trayvon throwing punches MMA style.

    • boyd says:

      oh yeah, you saw him stagger right? right damm it? say S T A G G E R?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Whatever happened on why he wasn’t at first forthcoming, John needs to flat out tell the unvarnished truth on the stand. Whatever his reason for earlier embellishing, he needs to tell it. The truth will ring true, and leave MOM with his teeth in his mouth.

    • Sleuth says:


      What do you think O’Dirty and The Wiester would do if John #6 admitted to being the cause of the confessed murderer’s minor injuries?

      • Xena says:


        What do you think O’Dirty and The Wiester would do if John #6 admitted to being the cause of the confessed murderer’s minor injuries?

        IMO, GZ’s head boo-boos were not inflicted that night. In the photos taken at the police station, the scratches on his face had scalps on them. The close-up of his head boo-boos look as if they had scalped around the edges.

        IOWs, GZ already had the boo-boos and scratches. All he needed was blood. There is a spot of Trayvon’s blood found on the cuff of GZ’s jacket. The blood on GZ’s head was dry when the EMTs cleaned him up, and there was blood on his hands, although there is no smearing of blood on his face neither head. One EMT wrote in his report that the boo-boo was caused by a thrown object.

        At the cop shop, all he would need to do is pick at the scalps to start them bleeding again.

        What I believe is that someone put an ass kicking on GZ that Friday or Saturday. Maybe there are text messages on his phone to that effect.

        As far as his nose, I believe that GZ shooting with one hand resulted in recoil. That recoil almost made him lose control of the gun and thus, why there is GSR on the back of his right-side jacket sleeve.

      • Sleuth says:

        Now you know that I believe kickback busted his nose. Do you remember any official reports that mention anything about the last time the gun had been fired? Just curious.

        I can see the possibility of a beat down being the cause of his head injuries. I don’t know how I missed that piece about a thrown object being a possibility.

        I remember in the media evidence dump, it was stated by officer (I can’t think of the name now) who took him to the SPD asked him again if he wanted to go to ER and he kept saying no. The officer said the only thing he kept asking for was tissue. I always wondered why. Now you got me thinking picking the scabs could be the reason why.

        • Xena says:

          @Sleuth. Great point about the tissue!

          Do you remember any official reports that mention anything about the last time the gun had been fired?

          No, I do not.

  40. Brandy says:

    I don’t get why they keep putting the racist orange faced Taffee on HLN and other programs! Taffee Duck is so vial and disgusting! Whenever I see he is on TV I turn the channel, I will not allow is arrogant, racist negativity into my home!


  41. BillT says:

    west and omara have both mentioned zman staggering around????? no witness saw that and in none of zmans many stories did he claim that……he was cool calm and collected when the first person got there right after the shooting.

    • Malisha says:

      They just say things like “staggering around” because they believe that saying them over and over is enough, that “trial by litany” will prevail although they have no evidence to use. It COULD work; it very often DOES work when there are bench trials in domestic relations cases. I don’t think it’s going to work in this trial though.

      • Judy75201 says:

        That really is their technique. Just like O’Mara saying, in an offhand way on TV…bruised knuckles…(referencing Trayvon).

  42. Sophia33 says:


    What are the strange elements that I added to this thread? Just curious and not trying to make waves.

    • Leisa says:

      I am not diary but I will tell you that your use of “Scheme Team” tells me you have spent time on sites that are not kind to Trayvon Martin and his family. That term is straight out of the treehouse and I think it should stay there.

      • Leisa says:

        Sorry but I’ve had a shitty day am feeling feisty.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Oh, no I referring to O’Mara team. The REAL Scheme Team. The drama accusing Tracy Martin of being “violent” towards GZ’s buddy. The objection after agreeing to the tapes being played. The mess today practically accusing someone of tampering with evidence. That is what I was referring to.

        I can’t go to anti-Trayvon sites. I got the term from HP where anyone can see my posting history. I thought they were referring to O’Mara’s team, not the Prosecution.

        My apologies for the confusion.

    • diary73 says:


      This is typically a very positive site. More than a few harshly negative comments have come from your posts, especially following similarly negative comments from Tasha.

      When you are new to an environment, it is important to observe the climate. Go back and read some of your comments of today and notice responses from others besides and in addition to mine.

      There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with what you witness during the trial. The connotations behind your disagreements (or agreements with other harshly-stated disagreements), have caused me to feel a bit uneasy with some of your posts.


      • Sophia33 says:

        Because I wasn’t the only one to have harsh statements today, I felt comfortable sharing my own. And honestly, I agreed with some, but not all. However, if you look at my posts, I did not agree with everything Tasha said either, if you go back and look.

      • Judy75201 says:

        @Diary, I saw the same thing. The following & falling in line with Tasha. This place generally doesn’t tolerate too much “froth & frenzy” and it gets old fast. One or maybe even two posts, but that’s all that’s the norm. I think Sophia was emotional and let Tasha twist her further.

        • cielo62 says:

          Judy- That sounds right, and I trashed them both. I’ve got to learn to slow down. 🙂 At least I wasn’t alone in my suspicions.


      • Judy75201 says:

        @Diary. I’ve changed my mind. Two trolls.

      • cielo62 says:

        Diary- I agree. I reacted to the overall impression of packets of unfounded criticism. Diary, thank you for being clear and kind. I don’t mean to alienate fellow justice seekers. But I will open a can if whoop ass on destabilizers.


      • diary73 says:

        You are quite welcome, Ceilo.

      • diary73 says:

        Pardon me, *Cielo (sp).

    • fauxmccoy says:

      will add my own two cents at this point —

      this is a legal blog. many of us have spent well over a year here studying the legal information made accessible to us by professor leatherman. while some of us may occasionally get upset or even angry of something going on in the case, this blog, or even our own lives, this is not a place to come to ‘rant and rave’. please, take that to craig’s list.

      we have studied florida law, understand many of the statutes involved and supreme court cases which are relevant. we may make arguments, but they are based on fact or interpretation. we understand the court process, know what to expect and are in this for the long haul.

      we recognize that we each bring our own biases, but do our best to examine them and not inflict them upon others. i freely admit that i am not black, do not have centuries of history in which my forefathers were denied equal access to justice. i do however firmly reject any allegations that ‘the fix is in’ or that the mysterious ‘they’ have ‘gotten to judge nelson’. we have watched every pre-trial hearing together, discussed her rulings and although we may not like every ruling, the general consensus is that she is fair.

      we are here primarily to understand the law and by extensions, support the state of florida’s proseuction of george zimmerman on the charge of second degree murder. as the trial began, a lot of new comers have come on board, which we of course welcome. a word to the wise though — when exploring new blogs, it is incumbent upon the newcomer to get a ‘feel’ for the blog and to keep that in mind when posting. this is why many people choose to ‘lurk’ for a while before posting. i did for two months and am glad. i did not feel like a fool upon my first post and was taken seriously.

      i hope you and others can find something helpful in this post, as that is my only intention.


  43. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Please excuse this off topic post. Right now, I have no words. I will just post this video:

    • Sophia33 says:

      I know I saw this today and all I could think about was John Lewis walking the Edmund Pettis bridge. I can’t even talk about this right now.

      • MichelleO says:

        America has been a strange country for a very long time. For a period, it seemed like everything was going to be better. But now we see that we are starting to slip back into time…..

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        That’s just the tip of the iceberg of the evil those that hate blacks have planned for our people, Don’t be surprised, just stay watchful and prayerful.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, granny:,0,6835031.story

        from article:

        As soon as the court made its decision public today, the attorney general of Texas, one of nine mostly Southern states targeted by the act, announced the state’s voter ID law, which had been on hold, will take effect immediately. That law requires that photo identification be shown.
        The attorney general also said that a 2011 redistricting plan, blocked by federal judges who said it intentionally discriminates against minorities, will also take effect right away.
        In a 2012 story about the Texas redistricting fight the New York Times noted this gem of an argument:
        “Minority groups and Democratic lawmakers sued the state in federal court over the maps drawn by the Republican-controlled Legislature, arguing that they discriminated against blacks and Hispanics. Lawyers for Greg Abbott, the Texas attorney general, who is representing the state, have argued that the maps were drawn to help Republicans maintain power, not to discriminate.”

      • MollyK says:

        You all have thoughtful comments, That argument is priceless. I guess they don’t even have to pretend any more.

    • LeaNder says:

      Can someone explain to me what this is about? What happened in the Supreme Court?

      • Sophia33 says:

        They removed Section 4 and 5 of the Voting Rights Act. They declared them unconstitutional. These are the provisions that said that states that had a history of discriminating against in their voting practices had to get approval from the DOJ before they could make changes in voting. It was based on a formulary. States that had this history could be removed from the list if they showed that they weren’t engaging in voter suppression anymore. Conversely new states could be added. The law was used to combat some of the voter suppression methods even in this past election. Now that this provision is gone, many of the things they tried to do to suppress votes might get through in future election cycles.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Sophie –
        Just 4, not 5. Although, as a practical matter, taking out 4 effectively guts 5. Which they knew when they did it. I like Justice Ginsberg’s comment in the dissent.

        “Throwing out preclearance when it has worked and is continuing to work to stop discriminatory changes is like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet,”

        -Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg for the Dissent

        • LeaNder says:

          Thanks, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, the lonely voice? Interesting. Thanks Sophie.

          I was wondering several decades ago, when I was younger, about historians not linear models, or not progressive models. Some used waves or curves. During the last couple of decades I stopped to wonder about that.

        • LeaNder says:

          Sorry, Nef05 and Sophie, I meant.

    • MollyK says:

      I’m still stunned and not able to think about this right now. I have to admit that I was not expecting this. I thought that Roberts was too concerned about his legacy to join the usual suspects.

      I can’t believe that Obama’s election was used as evidence that we no longer need voting rights protection. As far as I can tell, Obama’s election has enraged certain people and brought them out of the woodwork.

      The only hope I can see is the recent history, November, 2012: efforts to suppress the black vote only motivated them to vote in record numbers.

    • Malisha says:

      I hate to admit this but I am so pessimistic about our courts right now that I am not even surprised.

    • KA says:

      I am just aghast at not only this, but a trend in the US to diminish and discount the lives of so many of our citizens. I am scared of our future, especially my children’s future when nonwhites are discounted as sub members of our society. I am just disgusted

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        The only good thing I can think of, is that I believe the resurgence of racism is based on an awareness by old white males, that their days of being the dominant factor in this society are numbered.

        It is not just the brown and black people, whose rights are being attacked. Women and young people’s rights are under fire too. The Obama coalition is scaring the shit out of the ” ruling class”.

        I am hoping these actions are like the desperate last actions we’ve seen from the middle eastern dictators that were ousted.

  44. Brandy says:

    All I can say is turn about is fair play! Hope the Prosecutors have people searching on the puter for the duhfense witnesses comments! We all know that Fogen has many rabid supporters and they cant keep their mouths shut! So Bring it on…. I quarantee the Pros can dig up all kinds of dirt from Blinkys witnesses out there in cyber space! Blinkys followers spew more vial racists hate then anything they can come up with Trayvon supporters! We will have to wait and see 🙂

    • LeaNder says:

      They may be more anonymous, harder to trace.

      You could connect the dot’s web wise concerning me, if you knew my name, thanks to some conspiracy nut that once published my address on his yahoo list when I privately told him his paranoia concerning a supposed list take over was ridiculous. After that I stopped using my name. I realized it could be a problem. But still LeaNder is pretty hard to Google up swiftly.

      The treehouse crowd and people like Diwataman may not be so easy to connect via their real names as people that use their names on Facebook or Twitter. Fact is the whole Zimmerman support crowd was promised anonymity. And I am pretty sure that Mom guarantees it.

      • Sophia33 says:

        So they have their cyber sheets with pointed hats. Cowards.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Pretty much. Many make duplicate pages on FB to conceal their real pages, which violates FB rules. I don’t mind that, because they do get attacked. What I mind is when they lie about it and accuse TM supporters of making fake pages when they themselves are using fake pages.

  45. Sophia33 says:

    @Judy she was NEVER asked the direction by the prosecution OR the defense. BDLR did point that out.

  46. Sophia33 says:

    O.K. I am going to breath. I hope I am wrong about W#1 and if I am I will be the first to admit it. Perhaps having seen too many injustices in the justice system in cases like this, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell (to name a few), I am a bit jaded.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Sophia, I feel ya, and I can go back further in time than that about injustices I’ve witnessed. I am beginning to think that there is no such thing as justice for those of a darker hue. The meaning of “JUSTUS” rings true in America.

    • boyd says:

      her sister was asked which direction and she said left to right. I’m guessing both were interviewed on the same day.

  47. boyd says:

    I was wrong she never mentioned direction until today.

    everything else matched and she is very difficult to get information from. like she does not get it. that FDLE guy seemed like he was pulling his hair out to get information. If he did not ask, she would say. I guess some people are like that.

    witness #2 is her sister, same type voice, she told serino how far apart martin and zimmerman were.

    • boyd says:

      If he did not ask, she would NOT say.anything

      • Judy75201 says:

        I was only able to watch part of it, but it crossed my mind that she may never have been asked a directional question about what she heard.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        She wouldn’t have known it was relevant. She never saw them struggling on the ground, so why would she assume they were struggling on the ground sometime before the shot was fired?
        She saw them upright, then she heard the shot, then she what she described as ” the body”. If that is all you’ve seen, you won’t say ” by the way, I never saw them struggling on the ground”.

        I think she is one of the least polluted eye witnesses. John is one of the most polluted.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Right it was her sister, who O’Mara is trying to say lied. For me, these two are important because they could clearly show that they were moving south to north. Something that Zimmerman didn’t mention. It shows he followed Trayvon. Then it begs the question, WHY did he lie about following Trayvon. It shows that he was trying to detain him.

  48. Judy75201 says:

    I generally find people who think they know everything to be amusing, unless they can’t STFU.

    • groans says:

      Unfortunately, most people who think they know everything just CAN’T seem to STFU … it’s against their know-it-all nature.

  49. Judy75201 says:

    I see the trial so far as a 70/30 for the state. I’m very optimistic.

  50. Sophia33 says:

    I think it is key that she never deviated from them running. And O’Mara never asked her about it. Zimmerman never mentioned this in his testimony.

    • BillT says:

      also that means they were NOT on the ground completely contrary to zmans entire story on the ground from the first punch and on the bottom til the end.

  51. MichelleO says:

    Okay. Have been away. Someone is reporting that Trayvon was shot from the back, and that the police rolled him over to perform CPR. Is this true?

    • Trained Observer says:

      No. He was shot from front into the heart. Fogen has admitted to rolling him over to “restrain” him. Cops then rolled him over again.

      • MichelleO says:

        Thank you.

      • Sophia33 says:

        And that part of rolling him over doesn’t add up because his arms weren’t outstretched.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen has told so many versions, it’s hard to keep track.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Trained Observer,

        I went back twice to review the tragic photo of young Trayvon, as he lay dying.

        We know Zimmerman flipped him over after the shot. (Chris Serino’s word, “flipped,” with which Fogen concurred.)

        I am puzzled.

        Trayon’s feet were both pointed in the same direction, and not splayed.

        If Trayvon really WERE “mounted’ on Zimmernan, Trayvon’s knees would be bent and legs separated, if Zimmerman managed to “climb out from under.”

        When Zimmerman flipped him over, Trayvon’s legs and feet would not be so neatly aligned

        Trayvon’s head in the photo was pointed in the opposite direction to his feet.

        What does this mean? .

    • cielo62 says:

      MichelleO~ NOT TRUE. He was shot front to back. He was rolled over on his back to find an exit wound by the police who was performing CPR.


  52. ks says:

    Folks, nothing’s going to be perfect. Overall, the prosecution had a very good day. In particular, the cop and the tech were excellent.

    • crazy1946 says:

      If you had watched the Fogdoit during Selena’s testimony, you would know she hit closer to home than anyone else today! I think that considering the way she was treated by MOM she did extremely well and remained poised and under control during all of her testimony. Many times it is not the words that tell the story, but the way the story teller presents it….

      • Two sides to a story says:

        She was poised and I don’t think many people would have done as well as she did under the same pressure.

    • cielo62 says:

      ks~ very true. They were very concise, very believable.


    • Beverly says:

      I thought also that they were remarkable. The tech sounded so calm and level-headed and she truly only answered in a way to respond to what was asked. The officer was great. You could just tell he is really competent and straightforward, no bluster. Very well-educated. There’s been other stuff about the cops, but I assume it was not talk about him…..

  53. smokeegyrl says:

    Look, A lot of us want things to run smoothly, I understand most of your frustrations right now. Patience comes to those who wait. You don’t see Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton in the courtroom showing anxiety because things aren’t moving fast enough to get Fogen put behind bars. We can’t do the same thing. It’s not going to happen in the first two days. There is protocol they have to meet in proving their burden. Yes, the State says be patient for a year… but the trial just started… if the trial midway doesn’t start proving their burden then worry… but this is just the 2nd day…. There has to be something to why BDLR is doing what he is doing… but whatever it is … O”Mara and West with Fogen will show their show true colors in doing so… that is what I’m hoping for. Let’s not get negative now…

    • Trained Observer says:

      I believe the State knows what it’s doing, and I think the State, with John Guy’s attention-getting easy-to-follow opener, is off to a solid start. .

      As an aside, I think BDLR and associates are deliberately handing Defense some rope.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I hope so.

      • Tzar says:

        Trained Observer says:
        June 25, 2013 at 5:51 pm

        I believe the State knows what it’s doing, and I think the State, with John Guy’s attention-getting easy-to-follow opener, is off to a solid start. .

        As an aside, I think BDLR and associates are deliberately handing Defense some rope.

        I am confident of this as well
        it’s hard to say why but it is all in the body language of the three prosecutors and the fact that I now believe that the defense is arrogant, dense and-after the NEN call relevance reneging fiasco- ill-prepared enough to fall for it.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Well, I hope the prosecution starts tugging on that rope pretty soon and hangs them with that rope, stops letting MOM badger,disrespect, and turn the state’s witnesses into their witnesses.

        Me, myself, and I do not understand how or why or what purpose BDLR would be handing defense some rope for. Defense has been given a little too much rope if you ask me. They’ve been given free rein to smear Fulton/Martin, Trayvon, and anyone else that supports justice for Trayvon. Never in my life have I seen a book published by a defendant’s parents and released a day before a murder trial smearing and blaming everyone one, including the victim for his own death, and justifying the murderer.

        I need to go back to my corner, sit in silence, and observe. Sometimes silence is golden, but in my case, it’s more to keep from unleashing a bunch of expletives aimed at GZ and his sleazy lawyers. 🙂

      • Rachael says:


        1) He is trying to do his job – make the witnesses crumble. He is trying to give the jury reasonable doubt. You know, if he can find a lie, the whole thing is not to be believe and you have doubt.

        2) The more he does it (especially if it doesn’t work) the less the jury like him.

        So it is kind of good that they let him get away with it. I don’t think they would let him get away with really beating up on a witness. But we’ll see.

  54. crazy1946 says:

    One of the great things about participating in blogs like this is that we are allowed to be super human in our approach to problems! How many of us actually can honestly say we would have done a better job than the prosecutors in this case? I know that I have read comments by various people on here today where they state, “I would have done this, or I would have said that”! I must then ask, why are you sitting home commenting on a blog rather than doing the job that you think you would be so good at? It sort of reminds me of watching parents sit in the bleachers at school sports events and hearing them say what a better job they could do than the coach is doing! If you are such a good attorney then why has the state of Florida not drafted you to conduct this case? Perhaps after you have walked a few feet in any one of their shoes you might have a different perspective on what you would or would not do!

    • cielo62 says:

      crazy~ That’s not so crazy! I enjoy trying to understand their strategies. NO DOUBT there is always something that might have been included here and there (ie more knowledge about FB by the State) but overall, I would NOT like their jobs at all!


      • Sophia33 says:


        I admit it was great that she never deviated from the running part. But she seemed completely caught off guard with the scheme teams approach to her. As a result, it made her look really unsure.

    • Malisha says:

      I hope they read here, though, and get ideas. :mrgreen:

      • crazy1946 says:

        I hate this reply function, it seems to have a mind of it’s own, I was trying to correct my spelling when it sent itself of into the blog sphere! But what I was trying to point out that the other day he was touch typing on his laptop. I have found that most men who do that are well versed and function quite well on a computer, unlike what he would like us to think.

    • who was touch typing and what is touch typing and huh??LOL

      i don’t understand this:
      “I have found that most men who do that are well versed and function quite well on a computer, unlike what he would like us to think.”

      • crazy1946 says:

        Sorry about the cut off comment, what I was trying to say was Don West was touch typing on his laptop! Early on in the massive number of hearings when it was suggested he had done something on the internet he had made the statement he was computer illiterate and could not have done anything on the computer…. This is just a small and inconsequential thing but struck me as strange to see him touch type after remembering that statement…. old minds work in strange ways!

  55. willisnewton says:

    I think the all-female jury will sympathize with witnesses who are badgered

    • Trained Observer says:

      Especially badgered for no valid reason.

    • KA says:

      Combine it with the disrespect for the female judge, the disrespect in title for the female CS Analyst, the intense badgering of a professional female witness, the blatant disrespect of every other female on the stand (ie 911 records admin) about his phone calles, etc….I think you have some pretty enlightened and offended female jurors.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      E6, domestic violence victim. Not a good thing to badger a woman in front of a domestic violence victim. The defense will be beating up on Selma, on Jane, on Rachel on w12. All of them are women all of them made statements contradicting GZ. The defense will try to make them into liars, or hysterical women who can’t be taken seriously. I don’t think an all women jury will be much of an advantage to the defense.

  56. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I’m confused…which witness said that they saw movement going south to north? I know one of them said that in their interview with Serino or FDLE. I am 100% sure of that. If it wasn’t Selene, who was it?

    • Sophia33 says:

      It was this one’s sister who said that.

    • towerflower says:

      I thought it was Witness 2. She first described 2 people running towards the T. She later changed her statement saying she didn’t have her contacts in and saw only one person.

      • Malisha says:

        Much of the problem is due to the fact that the FDLE seems to have conducted some pretty cursory interviews in the early days. People who live in a townhouse in a town are not necessarily going to be Perry Mason and Lieutenant Columbo and Bob Woodward all rolled into one. They answered questions, some of which were put to them rather clumsily, and they did not get enough time to really be “picked clean” of all their information. If you look at the interview of DeeDee, for instance, she didn’t understand half the questions and the other half she was cut off mid-answer. I would have known how to ask her the questions in smaller pieces without compound sentences and she would have given much more information as we went along; but these SUITS, as good as they may be, are SUITS and they don’t always know how to adjust their run. That is, a lawyer or detective may not be as good at writing dialogue as a writer for made-for-TV crime shows.

        Not to worry. Data is not perfect even in the most detailed of computer programs. But the human mind is a very FINE FINE computer, even the most ordinary human mind. I think these six jurors are able to understand the gist of what is being said.

        That is, so far:

        Trayvon was not scary or aggressive on 2/26/2012.

        He was not even remarkable on 2/26/2012.

        Fogen was not asked or told to follow him on 2/26/2012.

        Trayvon was shot in such a way as to make the self-defense story physically impossible.

        At least one witness observed a running, chasing, arm-flailing and yelling fight before the shot, moving from South to North towards the T.

        Trayvon Martin was a normal teen-ager, not very physically imposing and not aggressive.

        Fogen was a self-appointed NW captain, and aggressive.

        Fogen was encouraged to, or at least not discouraged from, profiling people he saw at RTL. At least he believed he was.

        Now, with only ten percent (tops) of the State’s case already on the record, I’d summarize the situation as follows:

        It is probable that Fogen’s account of what he did that night is not true;

        It is probable that Fogen profiled and followed Trayvon Martin;

        It is probable that Fogen shot Trayvon Martin either with both standing or with Trayvon Martin on the ground or near the ground, but not likely that he shot him from underneath him; and

        It is probable that Fogen chased Trayvon Martin from south to north between the houses, and shot him where the body was found.

        It is very unlikely that West has a career in stand-up comedy — as unlikely as the idea that Junior has a career in broadcasting.

        Not bad for a two-day start.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Oh, I didn’t know she changed her story. It’s been a while since I read any of those statements or any evidence. Thanks

  57. Woow! says:

    How the the TreeHouse get Trayvon’s school records? That information is not subject to any public information requests.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I don’t see it. Where/what thread?

    • diary73 says:

      What information do they have?

      • Leisa says:

        Sundance has filed to get Trayvon’s school records. I read about it the other day. I like to lurk sometimes to see what is up out there. He said he had calls from the MDSP and they are speaking with their attorneys. I think if anyone can let Mr. Crump know he needs to contact them. Something is going on. He stated there was supposed to be a record that said he (Trayvon) was a danger to himself and others and he is ready to approach defense directly to provide information. I was going to bring this up but, I am so new to this I was not sure it was even real or being put out for another reason. That is what is written on that site in last few days. I also think this thread has turned decidedly negative and while it is not my site, I would prefer it returned to the supportive, positive site I have always known it to be.

      • Judy75201 says:

        @Leise, I remember reading that stuff. BREAKING: Another crackhead bombshell!!!! It’s just another attempt to tickle the birds in the conspiracy theory tree. They love that stuff, and never call him out on all the things he’s promised but never come thru on. They crack me up.

      • Rachael says:

        I thought he got that a long time ago. He just wanted to wait until the “right” time to release it. He has been “releasing stuff slowly” oh god, don’t fall for it.

      • Leisa says:

        Judy (below) says they have nothing. I wrote what I read but I am not knowledgeable enough about all of this to know for sure what’s really up. Thanks for the response Judy!

      • Rachael says:

        Also, just because he would find information doesn’t mean they will use it now. It would change all kinds of things. They would have to get it entered into court, interview and dipose more people, and the whol landscape would change – if it is even true. None of the wintesses want to stay there any longer than they have to. And it still has nothing to do with what happened that night.

  58. Sophia33 says:

    Between Jury selection and this, this is the SECOND time that the prosecution has been caught off guard with FB. BDLR and that pretty boy he has next to him need to start checking FB pages of all of their witnesses from here on out. Come into the 21st Century!

    And also these kids and their FB pages. GROW UP! If you are a part of a high profile trial don’t post anything on FB. If you are called into jury selection, don’t post your summons on FB. These young folks trust this stuff too much.

    Back to the State! This should be the last time that they are caught off-guard by a twitter, tumblr or FB page.

  59. boyd says:

    which witness is she #1 or #2?

  60. Beverly says:

    And there was an earlier announcement that TM’s girlfriend will testify and she may have a sort of step by step progress of where these things started and progressed.

  61. smokeegyrl says:

    Just think the bottom line today, Fogen showed his anger and frustration today! Good Job Witness #1. I applaud you for that one.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      There were some highlights in the states favor today but they could not afford to lose a witness they specifically mentioned in opening arguments. The end of the day was a major clusterfuck. And why are they calling crime scene witnesses already anyway? What about ballistics, DNA, something along the same lines as what they started earlier today?

    • Sophia33 says:


      The state has been saying that we should be patient for a year and they are fucking up! This was a mess!

      • cielo62 says:

        Sophia~ EXPLAIN to me how this was a mess? The witness was NOT impeached. She testified to RUNNING, which was nowhere in gz’s fairytale. She also testified to maybe impeaching Jon in front of his house. EXPLAIN why you think this was a disaster for the State?


      • diary73 says:

        Tasha and Sophia are adding some strange elements to this thread. Hmmmmmm.

      • cielo62 says:

        diary73~ You are SPOT ON. Trolls 1 and 2, followed by Dennis and Roderick2012. Be aware. Don’t feed the trolls.

    • groans says:

      Yes. And MOM showed all the world how TERRIFIED the defense team is of this thoughtful, soft-spoken Witness #1.

      Very telling … and I hope we learn why as the trial progresses!

  62. Woow! says:

    MOM will have a tarnished reputation after this case. Well I hope he does.

    • groans says:

      IMO, he already does!

      (But, don’t forget, 47% of people nationwide actually wanted Mitt Romney to be our president….)

  63. tashatexas77048 says:

    And let me just make one more point: there may be a witness that heard or saw something similar to what this witness heard or saw but the state allowed O’Mara to wage a clusterfuck war on their witness with very little rebuttal. The truth is her story is pretty consistent minus what direction they moved in but she mentioned movement before. She also likely knew the race of the two individuals by the time she spoke to police and still didn’t embellish by saying Zimmerman was on top of Martin, something she clearly could have said. In totality she heard and saw very little but the state allowed the defense to focus on the non-important parts of her testimony and then focus on Facebook when all of the witnesses have some type of bias. This is another BIG round the state lost.

    • Sophia33 says:

      But she never changed the direction that they moved in. No one asked her. Not even the defense. Plus, what BDLR should have pointed out is when she made her statement she might not have known that George Zimmerman was saying that he was attacked at the “T’. BDLR dropped the ball when he didn’t ask her this.

      And if they can’t call her sister, then what gives? Her sister is the one to have claimed to have seen them running towards the “T”.

      John, Witness #6, is going to be eaten alive because he retracted is MMA style comments. And one witness initially said that they saw GZ screaming and then turned around and said that they didn’t know who was screaming.

      But I am so pissed with the state. More and more I am feeling that this is a dog and pony show. Considering that I feel that the bar needs to be met for people to even see Trayvon Martin and his family as human, let alone humans who deserve justice, stuff like this doesn’t help.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I think you are totally off base.

        John, Witness #6 may have an enlightening story to tell in court under oath on why he recanted on his early “MMA” version to cops.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        No BdlR should not have pointed that out. The defense screwed up big time. They have no excuse for never having asked her if she had an opinion about which way they were going.

        She has said she heard running or movement in the back, beginning from her very first statement. Movement means there was a direction. Apparently the State asked her that question as a non recorded follow up. They are entitled to do that. The defense deposed her, and as BdlR pointed out, they had 31 pages of transcript from that deposition, but not once did West ask her ” which way do you think they were going” .

    • Leisa says:

      Sorry to disagree with you but I don’t believe this witness bombed. Granted, it could have been better but I did not feel she was lying and she admitted liking petition on Facebook and the ladies of the jury know how Facebook works and won’t find that is a reason to disregard her. I think her final comment was, I told what I remembered. That was not a bomb.

      • cielo62 says:

        Leisa~ Exactly. I find it telling that she was very offended that the defense even implied that she came forward for notoriety. It took alot of convincing to get her to record her testimony. THIS is why people don’t get involved.


    • cielo62 says:

      tasha~ I don’t just see your assertion that the state “lost” this round. So she signed a petition online. So what? She pretty much established that gz and Trayvon RAN behind the house. gz NEVER mentions running ANYWHERE. She HEARD it going towards the T and away from where gz says he was parked. ALREADY she has shot holes in gz’s story about WHAT happened and WHERE. A witness only needs to be credible. They don’t need to be impartial.


    • smokeegyrl says:

      Tasha… you are speculated saying she likely knew the races…. you don’t know that… because she is saying she didn’t… also she is saying that she saw them in a stand up position… my goodness… don’t put words in the young lady’s mouth… and BDLR did stand up for her…

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I’m saying by the time she gave her depos she knew and surely when they had the community meeting when she first spoke up she knew so her testimony is not biased against Zimmerman but she lied initially about her FB postsv regarding this case

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        No she did not lie. She immediately admitted to liking a FB page. And that was what she pointed out to O’Mara, liking an FB page is not the same as signing a petition.
        So please stop misrepresenting what she said.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Stop trolling.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Another big round lost? Nope. It was a good day.

      In addition, the BIG rounds haven’t even started.

      • Leisa says:

        There is so much to come and Mom’s bullying this woman does not mean the State’s case is in the toilet. When did it get so negative around here? Kinda sounds like bashing of the state and the witness here today. Just sayin…

      • cielo62 says:

        Leisa~ Something called the “Tasha Troll Effect” has fallen upon us. Today went well. Several BIG hits against the defense. And several Zidiots are attempting to plant dissent and negativity here. Tasha is one of 4 I know of already.

    • groans says:

      @ tashatexas – Can’t agree about this being any “big round” or that “the state lost.” As for witnesses having “some type of bias” – NONE have more bias than the killer who incompetently weaved a “web of lies” to cover up his murderous conduct. And that “web of lies” will continue to be revealed throughout the trial.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ groans. Doesn’t tasha sound like a new troll. JMO.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        She trashed me when I disagreed by writing one sentence saying that the last witness today was not stupid.

        Her trashing response to me (which was hurtful) was

        You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The witness was NOT stupid.

        tashatexas77048 says:

        I think the witness was STUPID. It has nothing to do with you nor anyone else so this silly attack on me because I thought she did poorly should stop. You are supposed to be on the side of what’s right, so act like it!

  64. trina cosbie says:

    Nothing wrong with her having signed a petition. It would have only looked bad & might’ve impeached her testimony if she had lied about it, so wipe the sweat off your brows folks, its all good!! 😛

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That’s my feeling. Just because OM tries to make her look bad doesn’t mean she is. She held her own quite well.

    • Tzar says:

      I don’t think she signed it

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I believe when you click “like” on Facebook, that is akin to signing the petition.

        • Tzar says:

          what else do you believe?

        • Tzar says:

          and what does “sign” mean to you? does that involve putting your name on something

        • cielo62 says:

          tasha~ NO, it does NOT. When you sign a petition, you are REDIRECTED to that petition’s HOME SITE, you either plug in your info or it’s automatically submitted BUT YOU HIT SUBMIT TO ACTUALLY SIGN. When you “like” something, that’s all it means. You endorse either the idea or the message. Maybe, if you have kids in 2nd grade or older, you can get them to explain how FB works and NOT post untrue info.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        NOT TRUE. Liking a post is NOT the same as signing the petition, but OM wants the jury to think so. To sign the petition you had to go to to sign the petition. The notice of it that she had on FB that she liked may have come to her from a friend on FB, or if she’s already signed up to she would get a notice from them, or she could have gotten it from another news source.

      • Malisha says:

        Signing a petition is a prior good act. It does not deter from her story OR impugn her character OR impeach her testimony. The idea that signing the petition is a bad thing and shows racism or bias is a lie being peddled by the defense. DO NOT GO FOR IT. All it means is that once you are known to have signed that petition, Fogen will remove you from his Christmas card list!

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      There is nothing wrong with signing a petition, no, but lying about it when asked? YES!

      • Tzar says:

        she never signed it
        she never lied

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I’m pretty sure he got the lady to admit she signed it. Let’s not start being totally blind to everything like the Zimbots. This witness bombed, period.

      • Sophia33 says:

        No tasha, apparently liking that FB is the equivalent to signing the petition. That is the trick O’Mara played but because BDLR is so stupid, apparently, when it come to social media, he didn’t bother to ask the distinction on re-direct. That is where Guy should have come in. They need to get someone in that office who is a young person and knows about FB. Between jury selection and now, this is the second time that they have been caught with their pants down regarding FB. They need to check to see if every witness has a FB page, twitter, and tumblr.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tasha~ IN case you didn’t notice, she was never given the opportunity to SAY whether she did or not. She did NOT lie.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        She said she didn’t sign it.


      • concernedczen says:

        wow, you need to calm down tasha

      • trina cosbie says:

        Where did you get she lied from?? Don’t you think if that were the case it would be all over the news by now. Its not confirmed whether she signed or liked a petition, but that doesn’t even matter. She just testified to what she saw & she signed or liked a petition. No biggie, calm down…geez

      • groans says:

        Geez, tashatexas. It didn’t sound to me like she either: (1) signed a petition; or, (2) lied about signing a petition. I recall her asking MOM: “Is ‘liking’ it the same as signing it?” And the obvious answer is: No.

        From what I saw, it was MOM who was deceiving in that exchange! (No surprise there!)

  65. smokeegyrl says:

    From what Witness 1 stated in the Left to Right theory… I always believe Fogen is the one that cut through the houses instead of TM…that Fogen cut TM off preventing him from getting home. I believe that Fogen has seen TM before and knew where he was staying. I have a gut feeling about this; my gut feelings come from the pit of my soul and I don’t have these often so when I do get them.. there on point. Everything that Fogen says that TM did that night… It is really what he did… It’s called a Mirror Effect…

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      That may be true but that has nothing to do with 100% pure tomphuckfoolery we just witnessed in court, where it matters.

    • elcymoo says:

      I’ve said pretty much the same thing elsewhere, smokeegyrl, but it’s also possible that GZ just ran down from the ‘T’ and drove Trayvon back up the ‘dog walk’ I think that even without what this witness said today, the evidence trail supports that one of these two things happened. That means that Z either dropped his keys and flashlight near the ‘T’ before he ran down it, which seems unlikely, or he hurried back there after he shot Trayvon and deliberately placed them there.

    • KA says:

      I completely agree. The only way any version of GZ’s story makes sense is to reverse it

      This is why I believe that GZ was climbing around in the bushes, sneaking around corners… looking for Trayvon….

      I also think it explains the injuries.

  66. tashatexas77048 says:

    I am absolutely LIVID at the State and this godawful witness THAT GUY MENTIONED IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT. So if the state cannot prove all elements of their case that’s reasonable doubt and that’s an acquittal.

    I am extremely angry at the witness for lying thru her teeth at most about having sympathy for the dumb ass Zimmerman’s who just wrote a book blaming black people for all racism and possibly about what she saw or heard. How are we to know the truth from her, she clearly lied on the witness stand NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

    • Nef05 says:

      Okay, I’m a little confused, I admit I thought she was her sister. So, what did she outright lie about? What did I miss?

      • cielo62 says:

        Nef05~ You didn’t miss anything Tasha is freaking out and totally lost. She (the witness) never varied in her testimony. She was honest that her experience was limited. She didn’t SEE anything and nobody had ever asked her about the direction of what she clearly stated she HEARD. Someone needs to put a sock in Tasha. Her negativity is distracting and WAY off base.


      • diary73 says:

        Very distracting.

      • groans says:

        CIELO62 said:

        …Tasha is freaking out and totally lost…. Someone needs to put a sock in Tasha. Her negativity is distracting and WAY off base.

        @ CIELO62 – This is mean and ugly – which NOBODY here deserves!!

        You made similar insults against me last night for no reason other than for expressing thoughts, feelings, and/or frustrations that differed from yours.

        I don’t know when, where, or why you copped YOUR ATTITUDE that you can flatly “dis” other people and their thoughts and opinions here; treat them rudely, insensitively, and disrespectfully; and insult them as if you consider them less than human.

        Who died and made you the THOUGHT DICTATOR for this blog? (Hint: Nobody!)

        You’re so intolerant of and aggressive towards others lately that you sound like a close-minded reverse-Zidiot. If you think OTHERS are too full of “negativity,” I suggest that you look in the mirror and take a long, honest look at yourself.

    • Tzar says:

      Nice try Taaffee

    • Did she lie? I could not see everything today so please if there was a lie tell me.
      If you refer to the left-to-right episode there is no element proving that it was a lie. Wit #1 (Selene Bahadoor) never changed her account of the events. It is just the 1st time that she was asked about the direction of the running steps she heard.
      Actually, Selene’s sister (Suzanna, W02) lied to Serino, claiming her sister’s story as hers. MOM mentioned that briefly. But, doing so, he actually proved Selene’s point. Indeed, Suzanna told that the stepping noise was going from south to north. Since we know that she was just repeating what her sister told her, then Selene must have been telling the truth when she said to MOM that she actually told her sister about what direction were the steps.

      • boyd says:

        I could not figure out if t was #1 or #2. I’m still digging. but one of them said they were running about 1 car length apart.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Tashatexas, why don’t you try following this case so you’ll have half a clue on what is what? There is no evidence that the witness today in any way lied.

      • groans says:

        TO – Please don’t adopt cielo62’s new habit of insulting others. You have so much to say (and I enjoy your input very much), but so do others.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Cielo @ Groans

        W1 or Selena has been very consistent. I can hit my self over the head for assuming that she saw them on the ground. She never said that either. As a matter of fact, I think for other reasons, she is one of the least influenced witnesses, because of something else she said. I hope that BdlR didn’t dig deeper into one of her other statements, because of his strategy. If he just missed that point, I will be worried about this case. One thing I almost know for sure, is that the defense didn’t pick up on that one either. If I am right, she’ll be back on the stand later and you will see O’Mara and West completely explode.

        When O’Mara asked her if she liked the FB page, she immediately said yes. What O’Mara showed her was her FB page where she liked the petition page, not her signature on a petition.

        Just listen to the recordings of her statements again, she did not change any part of her statement, and she sounds very believable. It doesn’t mean what she saw and heard was exactly what happened, but she was sincere in relating what she saw and heard.

      • groans says:

        Cielo says:

        [M]aybe people don’t like being treated as fools. I call what I see.

        Oh, I understand you.

        There’s nothing wrong with YOU if you treat people like fools – it’s THEIR fault if they don’t like it! Let’s see … who does that remind me of. Oh, I know! George Zimmerman!! And all YOU do is “call what you see” (what else matters, after all, right?). Gosh, that sounds familiar, too…. Yup – a classic Zidiot mindset.

      • Malisha says:

        Amsterdam, do me a favor. Get a greeting card and write the point that you thought of (which I still haven’t figured out) and send it by actual physical mail to BDLR or Corey and try to get it there within this week or by Saturday so he will have it by Monday morning next. Or, better yet, if you know someone in the US close to Florida or who could get it to the FDLE offices sooner (written on paper, not electronically), let them know about it so they get it there faster. I am wracking my brain to figure out what you mean but I know there are a few little gems to be uncovered — the problem is that steamrollers don’t always find little gems. I DO SO WANT to see O’Mara and West explode when Serene is recalled to the stand on rebuttal.

        I’ll re-post this on the “today” thread. :mrgreen:

    • Malisha says:

      The elements of the crime are:

      Depraved Mind without regard for human life &
      ill will or malice.

      An affirmative defense is self-defense.

      You don’t show self-defense by attacking a fact being put into evidence that says a fight was moving along as the fighters both were RUNNING and they went from left to right. Or conversely, that a fight was moving along as the fighters both were RUNNING and they went from right to left.

      You MIGHT really be able to cast doubt on a story told by a defendant who claims that he did not run, the victim did not run, and they went from north to south, of course.

      But this is a brick in the wall, not a skyhook. Here’s how the proof looks to me:

      KILLED – admitted

      DEPRAVED MIND: “These assholes, they always get away” and “Shit; he’s running” and “There’s been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy…” (in other words, profiling, and profiling inaccurately)

      ILL WILL: “Fucking Punks”

      And as to self-defense? Let the defense put on their claim of self-defense. Then we’ll see how the prosecution deals with it.

      • jm says:

        After listening to the officer’s testimony about giving mouth-to-mouth to Trayvon trying to save his life it makes me think how depraved GZ is for not trying to help Trayvon.

        • Ya think?……

          That Cop is hell of a lot more man than fogen could ever hope to be….There you saw a cop that was truly doing his job….selfless and for the community….

          Hell he didn’t even know who TRAYVON was……..Could have been a crack head thug…….Yet this man took the risk to place his mouth against Trayvon’s in an effort to save his life…..

          While fogen thinks he just bagged a trophy “buck”…asshole…

          I hope to hell fogen getting a good taste of what it is to be a REAL man… like Tracy Martin and this Officer……

          HOODIES UP

          • jm says:

            I hope GZ’s family are watching court on live stream and realize what an ugly depraved weasel they are supporting.

        • Shari says:

          That broke my heart but it was nice hearing the life saving efforts. The officer also sat the child up looking for an exit wound. Where was the killer when this happened? Was he handcuffed? Depraved mind indeed. He made no attempt to get help for the child he killed.

          The site is working today!

          • Naw….he was busy discussing what type of ammo he used for the kill………..You don’t see the NRA (of which I’m a member) supporting his DEPRAVED ass…..

            For any South Park fans……….fogen could be Cartman personified….. “Respect my authoriteye” F’n POS….

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Yes you are right. They exploded because they missed it. I can’t believe they never asked her which way she thought they were running. We all knew she heard running feet, did anyone here assume we knew which direction she heard those running feet?

        I am still pissed at my self for assuming she saw them on the ground. She never said that either, I just assumed that, because of John’s statement. But if Selena never saw any of the fighting on the ground, why would she assume she had to clarify that she saw them in a upright position?

        This was a big fail on the part of the defense. Selena sounds very believable in her recorded statements. It doesn’t mean the jury will believe that what she heard was correct, but I think they will believe that she is genuine in her believe that was what she heard.

    • groans says:

      tashatexas – It didn’t sound to me like the witness today (W1) was lying.

      That said, I did go back to listen to some of her interview tapes, as well as her sister’s (W2). From the parts I heard, it does seem that it was her sister who told about the south-to-north movement of the altercation, not her. Also, it seems that her sister (W2) told Serino that she (the sister) was downstairs cooking – not upstairs, as today’s witness testified. And that does give me cause for concern.

      Is that what you’re referring to – or part of what you’re referring to?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      do you have any chill pills?

  67. Hey, if Fogen’s head was banged when exactly on 2/26? I thought fogen said killed TM b/c his head was repeatedly banged, BUT seeing where TM’s body was, how is that possible?

  68. Well, Selene’s sister, Suzanna, is the worst of all witnesses.

    Selene (Wit 1), at least, has always been consistent with her depositions, and see how hard it was for her on the stand.

    The 1st deposition Suzanna (Wit 2) made was to Serino. What she did then was to take her sisters story for herself forcing her later to fully recant. I really don’t want her on the stand.

    What strikes me is that MOM clearly want to discredit Selene by associating her testimony to the lies her sister Suzanna told to Serino.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      The State won’t put her on the stand, so we will never hear from her. W1 has been consistent. You can’t blame her that West never bothered to ask her which way she thought they were moving.
      The T and the direction they were moving, did not have any meaning to the witnesses when they made their first statements.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Hopefully the state has the good sense not to call her sister who will no doubt get on the stand and say she saw something downstairs when O’Mara got the first one to say her sister would be lying if she said she saw what happened downstairs.

      I’ll tell you one thing, I smell an acquittal not because Fat Fk is innocent but because the city of Sanford IN ITS ENTIRETY is made up of a bunch of missing chromosome imbeciles. How the hell do you not care that someone got shot near your back door? Keep in mind that the jurors are made up of the same litany of dumb civilians that both sides will parade into court to testify.

      • Sophia33 says:

        The first one did not say that he sister would be lying. She said she could speak to her sister’s testimony.

        I agree with you Tasha.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I meant to say that she said that she could NOT speak to her sister’s testimony.

        I do agree about the acquittal. I mean we could have video of Zimmerman murdering Trayvon Martin but because he is a black boy it would still be an uphill battle to get a conviction. Ask Ayiana Jone’s family.

      • Nef05 says:

        Aiyana Jones’ family was harboring a wanted murderer, in their home and at least two family member knew it, before the cops busted in with the warrant. Secondly, the cop said from day one that the grandmother jumped at him and grabbed the gun, and it went off. That whole thing was a hot mess, and that poor baby died because of it.

        That said – I thought the charges were appropriate and he should have been convicted. But, he wasn’t acquitted. It was a hung jury. The judge set the pre-trial hearing for July 25th. Kim Worthy does not play and she’s not scared of cops or anyone else. She got the conviction of Budzyn and Nevers for the Malice Greene police murder, Kwame Kilpatrick to plead to 2 of 8 felonies and she has over 90% conviction rate in trials. She’ll get him.

    • concernedczen says:

      How do you know what Suzanna said?

  69. YQ says:

    Racist defense. They didn’t look at the 7-11 cashier’s fb page….

    I wonder how her testimony will weigh-in?

    • PYorck says:

      I think a lot will depend on the other (state) witnesses. If what she said is in line with others then many little flaws can be forgiven and forgotten. If she is an outlier, then things will be more difficult.

      In particular I am very interested in W6’s testimony.

  70. smokeegyrl says:

    If it were me, I would’ve said… Hey, somebody killed somebody behind my house… why wouldn’t I want this to be investigated… I didn’t know who it was… I have right as a citizen… especially if the culprit is still on the loose. you got a problem with that…

    • Nef05 says:

      You would have said that, I would have said that. I believe that any number of ladies here would have said that. But, she didn’t have an assertive personality, in that manner. She might just be a Type B personality, or it may have something to do with the culture/environment she was raised in.

      I think she did as well as she could, under the circumstances. I agree she could have been more prepared. But, I also think that BDLR realized there would be some weakness in her testimony, which was why she went so early. They’ll probably be building to the stronger witnesses toward the end of their case, and this lady will not have any great impact on the jury’s deliberations. IMO

    • degraveegmailcom says:

      The state should have been more on the ball and object sooner.
      Maybe they figure they don’t need to though.
      And they don’t.
      She did great IMO.
      It must be difficult for the jury though not talking about anything
      among themselves.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I think she stood her ground against Mr O’Bully! I wonder every time Mr. O’Bully questions a black witness is he going to intimidate them with round about racial suggestive type questions?

  71. disappointed says:

    Well hopefully this witness does not come back to bite the Prosecution in the butt. I do question why Mr West would not ask since Fogen is denying any running or standing. I mean I thought he said knocked on his ass with the first hit. Now we are to believe witnesses can not be traumatized by witnessing a murder/killing?
    Hopefully the State will have a moment when Fogen testifies that a LE or State Atty did not ask a simple question yet Fogen is to be believed because the question was never asked. I think I should never be a witness. At my age and a grown man talking to me that way would get him a punch in the mouth on my way out of court room.

    • DruDo says:

      “At my age and a grown man talking to me that way would get him a punch in the mouth on my way out of court room.”

      I’m right there with you!

    • DruDo says:

      Disappointed~ forgot to add that we would have no doubt been in a jail cell afterwards, it would have been worth it to me.

    • Malisha says:

      Well OK, punch him in the mouth but don’t look down at your shoes and mumble “mf” and DON’T ask him “What’s your problem, homie?”

      OMG I have an idea. Send a postcard to MOM’s office asking:

      “What’s your problem, homie?” 😆 :mrgreen: 😆

      • disappointed says:

        You two are crazy! I appreciate that you did not judge me for being violent. It is not the norm for me, I raised 4 boys without whipping them. Not that I did not want to but for fear I may not stop! Boys were rough on their Momma. Frogs, snakes, bugs anything with legs brought in. Dead birds. Eww. You know normal boy stuff with a real girly girl for a Mom.

  72. Two sides to a story says:

    Just because the defense tried to discredit her doesn’t mean that the jury must take it the same way. It may put doubt in some minds, not so much in others if they feel the defense is bullying her.

  73. willisnewton says:

    I am quite biased and cannot make a judgement – how do others feel it went with the “left to right” witness and what’s the bigger picture here?

    Will a jury find her credible?

    • jm says:

      I thought she was credible. She had no MOTIVE to lie back when she gave her statements. I also think MOM came off as a sleaze and a bully insinuating this witness was lying and wanted fame. I see nothing wrong with wanting justice for Trayvon once all the facts came out. At the time she gave her statement she didn’t know anything about Trayvon or GZ to take a side. Hope the jurors are smart enough to figure that out. I also liked the fact that no one at all on defense was interested enough to even ask the witness what direction they were going.

    • cielo62 says:

      Willis~ She seemed credible because you can tell that MOM was badgering her and TRYING to trip her up. She never changed her mind about what she HEARD. She was very consistent about the limitations of her experience. I think she did a credible job, establishing 2 things: 1. that there was RUNNING (something that gz NEVER mentioned) and 2. that it was AWAY from gz’s truck and TOWARDS the T.


    • Beverly says:

      It think that it may be abit of a wash. But I think she came thru that she just hadn’t thought in the detail of “left to right” and no one asked her. That’s pretty reasonable. It that is the biggest concern, I think OM made much more about it than is there.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      exactly, I believe that O’Mara came off as a bully with these women jurists… O’Mara has to remember how women feels about women and bullying especially the one juror who has been a victim of domestic violence.

      • DruDo says:

        smokee, I agree. If I were on that jury, I would have cringed at how O’M badgered her and how arrogant he came across.

    • type1juve says:

      I think she came across as honest. The prosecution needs to be more proactive with these witnesses though. They know they are up against the dirtiest with O’Mara and their lack of preparation is showing. They were given an indication in jury selection that the defense is going after social media. They need to get on top of this, it’s not too late.

      • KittySP says:

        @type- hit the nail on the head! I expressed the same thoughts up thread. They know, or should know by now, how MOM thinks and anticipate which of their witness testimonies will likely come under attack by the defense. Better to be proactive, than reactive!

        As Sr. QA analyst testing software, I was required to test the code the developers had written, to ensure it would work in QA environment before being implemented in production. But what I preferred, was actually finding ways to break their code.

    • YQ says:

      Errrr…. kinda not good. There is a sense that it could backfire. I don’t like it, it’s a bit too intrusive for my style to scope in on somebody’s FB page. Maybe the jury will think so?

      Well, I mean..
      It could be viewed as not a big deal at all. I don’t think it’s going to be 100% credible amongst ALL of the jury, tho.

    • Girlp says:

      IMO she held up good, I first learned of this on the news NBC did a report on the murder (myabe Dateline). There are other witnesses who may testify and were ignored by the detectives, or their witness statements was changed by the detectives others told this was self-defense when the witness said this was murder so I won’t be surprised if there are more witnesses who may have signed a petition. Also, petitions show up on my FB all the time friends and orgs that you liked will do that time to time.

      • DruDo says:

        Girlp, I signed that petition and remember not being aware of the incident prior to reading it, but felt the person who killed that teenager should be arrested, at least. Who kills someone and isn’t even arrested? Because I signed it didn’t mean I was on one “side” or the other, at that point, but certainly was appalled that the killer wasn’t going to have to answer for what he did. Seems perfectly logical to me. Part of the definition of justice is fairness and anyone who signed that petition had every right to expect that it be shown for Trayvon Martin. O’Mara better look up the word “justice” since he thinks it shouldn’t be available to Trayvon and only for his scummy client.

    • anita says:

      In the end she said “I’m just saying what I remember.” That was the truth. The looks on fogen’s face & MOM’s hateful treatment towards her was pretty telling. They know she is very damaging. She was soft spoken, but kept saying “left to right”. I do hope this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. The whole defense table disgusts me.

    • I think jurors will wonder why MOM harshly examined this witness as he did. Remember that none of the facts of Fogen’s defense narrative that we’ve all seen and heard are in evidence before the jury. This witness did well, but MOM knows that she cut their defense at the knees and they can no longer credibly put forth that it started all started at the “T.” MOM’s choice was either to impugn her credibility or come up with another defense narrative.

  74. Deborah says:

    Selene Bahadoor POSSIBLY signed the petition to have George Zimmerman arrested. The petition link O’Mara showed that was on her FB page could have been put there by someone else sharing a link with her, on her page. She actually never confirmed signing the petition. Court officers such as lawyers etc really need to get up to speed on how FB actually works otherwise shysters like O’Mara will continue to use it to get points against them and use it against them during trial. Looks like O’Mara put the nuthouse denizens to work on investigating the witness list and the prosecution was not as successful. Overall I think Selene did a pretty good job for herself under the adverse circumstances.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Which makes BLDR look like a damned fool for not clearing that up.

      • Tonya Bouie says:

        she did in fact sign the petition …….. to me she didn’t flinch she told what she heard serino did not ask her for the direction of the running

      • Malisha says:

        Just as:

        How could Trayvon have hidden to try to kill Fogen when he did not know Fogen would get out of the car to chase him down?

        so, also:

        How could W-1 make up what she saw and heard when she did not know at the time that Fogen’s story, upon which his theory of innocence was based, had him up at the T and being punched in the nose in a homie-ambush?

        All these ridiculous speculations depend upon the kind of knowledge nobody but Adrian Monk ever HAS.

    • cielo62 says:

      Deborah~ I believe Witness 1 did a very good job. She didn’t give an inch, and asked questions when MOM’s bs was confusing. I felt she was credible and that MOM was the one who was confused or confusing on purpose. I felt like MOM badgered the witness to get an answer HE wanted. I like she ended with “I told them what I remembered.” THERE!


      • Malisha says:

        I agree, Cielo. She did fine. Her information went in. She did not go farther than her recollection took her — she did not say she could see which person was which. She did not say she heard things she could not hear. She’s fine.

    • Leisa says:

      They have a tip line for each witness and post anything they think is not true and someone is texting that info into court. Did you see one of the girls walk up and show West and Mom her phone?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes, OM tried to make it seem the same as the outed juror’s remark on FB and it’s two different things.

    • Tzar says:

      Omara’s slight of hand was not lost on you

  75. tashatexas77048 says:

    I see why people like Casey Anthony got off. The state prepared this lady HORRIBLY!!! How utterly stupid not to bring up the pettions on their own or at least just re-cross and ask her about her consistently saying she heard MOVEMENT. Why the hell would he bring up anything else in cross, force O’mara to address only the most important point and that is she has previously spoken about movement. Goddang that was stupid!

  76. Leisa says:

    I have to wonder how many witnesses signed the petition?

  77. Trained Observer says:

    With having voir dire fresh in their minds, I think MOM is trying to confuse jurors with notion that witnesses are held to the standard of impartiality.

    This wit saw a murder in progress. She signed a petition asking for investigation and prosecution. She had every right to do so. That does not preclude her from being an honest, reliable witness.

  78. elcymoo says:

    The Conservative Treehouse strikes again, with that petition. I’m watching WFTV and the commenters there were mentioning it well before O’Mara ever introduced it. . Many commenters seem to believe that witnesses are required not to have any bias, but if that were true, witnesses wouldn’t be called for the state or for the defense, and there wouldn’t be many trials if every one was required to be neutral.

    • cielo62 says:

      elcymoo~ then people are stupid. JURORS need to be unbiased. WITNESSES need to be truthful.


      • elcymoo says:

        Yep, cielo. Defense attorneys shouldn’t tell blatant lies and misrepresent facts on behalf of their clients, either, but O’Mara and West wouldn’t have anything if they didn’t.

    • Malisha says:

      If anyone who witnessed a crime and thereafter actively sought justice for the victim of the crime was not allowed to be a witness, well then we wouldn’t have to BOTHER with all these courts, would we?

  79. dianetrotter says:

    It’s kind of hard to expect a witness to be unbiased when they witness a murder … especially when the murder is not arrested.

    • cielo62 says:

      dianetrotter~ AND he lives in your neighborhood, AND you know he’s armed AND you know he hates black folk. Yeah LOTS of reasons to want to stay safe.


    • tashatexas77048 says:

      I would expect her dumb ass to just go ahead and admit that though instead of saying, “I happy sympathy for the Zimmerman family as well.” I hope I never see that dumb lady again not because I don’t believe she heard anything but because when sitting on the biggest stage of her life she failed! I also blame the state for its poor preparation of her and BLDR not rehabilitating her one more time when given the chance. He sucks.

  80. Sophia33 says:

    Her sister should be prepared. Bernie better prepare her well.

  81. Brandy says:

    Leisa, I hear you on that it just looks bad that she has an agenda, especially being a witness for the state. I have no problem with it myselfl The big bad duhfense team will make it a big deal

    • Dave says:

      What “agenda”? A desire to see justice done? Somebody witnesses a murder and wants the perpetrator to be prosecuted? How does that look bad? They’ve already picked a jury. She doesn’t have to be neutral–just tell the truth.

      • PerfectlyImperfect says:

        Thank you for mentioning that the witness does not have to be neutral. Just consider the shit stain MO’M put on the witness stand yesterday regarding Tracy Martin threatening him in the court room. But wait, it did not actually occur in the courtroom. It actually occurred (if it did in fact occur) between the set of doors between leading to the doors that open to the court room. Timothy is a close friend of GZ. Witnesses are not juries. They can have whatever bias they want to have because they witnessed something that would surely shape their opinion.

    • Ms.X says:

      She is a witness because gz killed a kid behind her house. She didn’t just ask to be one. She is also a citizen and allowed to have an opinion about whtever she wants to have an opinion about, just like the juror that thought Trayvon was partially to blame for his murder. Omara fought to keep this juror who was clearly biased. She went to gz’s funding site & thought about donating but didn’t, yet she is worthy to become a juror. Why then, isn’t this witness unworthy to be a witness?

    • Leisa says:

      She certainly did not appear to be lying or trying to be sly about anything. She came across as just trying to tell what she knows. I thought for a second she was going to cry(I would have) but she was very strong.

      Did JN rule on the past nen calls coming in?

  82. soulsistawoo says:


    • Sophia33 says:

      Perhaps to support the other witnesses.

    • whonoze says:

      Even if the jury considers her questionable, they now have the idea of a South to north pursuit and a standing struggle in their heads… on the menu, so to speak…

    • smokeegyrl says:

      The state may be getting rid of the weakest witnesses first but I missed the part about the signing of the petition… I seen Fogen shaking his head… What was that all about?

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        ” I seen Fogen shaking his head… What was that all about?”

        Fogen thinks she hung herself & he is so much smarter than those black people. He is sick!

    • gbrbsb says:

      I think you are wrong. In her first interview with Serino she states she heard/saw “running at the back”. GZ never talked of any running at all. Any running in any direction puts the idea in the Jury’s head that GZ was past the T, not on the way back to his car.

      • uhoh says:

        In her March 9 audio interview with Serino, she says the running was towards the tee. She has to say it a few times to Serino as he mistakes her house for one of the E/W townhomes at the top of the tee.

      • bettykath says:

        uhoh, that was her sister who said they were running toward the tee.

    • Malisha says:

      No, her story builds the scene too. Eventually, brick by brick, they are building a solid wall of CONVICT. I’m not worried about their plan OR their evidence.

  83. KittySP says:

    @tzar, actually, a lot of what MOM is getting her to admit, Bernie should have addressed on direct. What I observe about his style of questioning is that he’s only looking to elicit testimony that helps the state…and doesn’t seem to spend the amount of time with his own witness, that the defense does. IMO, when he’s finished direct questioning, he should have covered any possible question the defense could think to ask on redirect, and not have his witness looking like a lost little lamb.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree.

      • KittySP says:

        Perfect example…on direct, when he asks about the arms flailing…he doesn’t get her to demonstrate…but MOM did. Imo, that’s something Bernie should have gotten her to do. If he had, he would have seen that her demonstration, looked like someone punching, vs someone trying to break free of someone holding you against your will.

    • crazy1946 says:

      KittySP, The thing that you are not looking at with clear focus is the way that MOM and West are interrogating the witness will seem very harsh and unnecessary to the jury and will do less harm the way they force it out of the witness!

      • KittySP says:

        @crazy, I don’t don’t disagree. Personally, I’m not concerned with how the jurors perceive the defense due to their unprofessional behavior. My point is that if the state is on their game on direct, that the defense is left with very little to work with on cross. He should want to clear up any ambiguity on direct.

        • crazy1946 says:

          If you want to hang a fool, you hand them the rope, you give them the chair to climb upon, and then allow them to talk their way off the chair….

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ I hear that Bernie has an open account at Home Depot to provide as much rope as they need! 🙂


  84. degraveegmailcom says:

    Now we’re talking!
    Thank you Mr BDLR, they never asked.
    So what if she signed so did 2 million others!
    She is still a witness.
    What a sleazebag this Omara is.

  85. disappointed says:

    What was the last question MOM asked her about how did you know how to answer Bernie’s question? What did she reply?

    • gbrbsb says:

      She said she was just saying what she saw. She did say on her first interview with Serino “running in the back”, so what she never said the direction, no one ever asked her either and maybe she didn’t remember at the time or just didn’t think the direction was important. And as I have said above, wtf which way they were running, GZ never mentioned running not once, he was either downed by the T or stumbled along in the re-enactment, but running not, and even if he was running right to left he was still way past the T.

    • Beverly says:

      He asked her about signing the petition when she had declined something else b/c she didn’t want to get on national TV. He wouldn’t let her explain or wouldn’t take what she had to say…if that is the part you are talking about. It was the last exchange, I think.

    • crazy1946 says:

      She said that she simply was telling them what she saw! Kind of went over MOM’s head….. I suppose he is not used to people being honest, he probably thinks all people are like he and his client!

    • Leisa says:

      She said she only said what she remembered.

  86. Ms.X says:

    So whats the summary for the day? I think the prosecution looked great & the defense looked good to racists. Whay say you?

  87. Xena says:

    GZ looks furious. Evidently he didn’t see a jury response to MOM’s act that he wanted.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Xena, hello my fellow AA racist, lol. it really looked to me that O’$hit bag, was trying to go for a Perry Mason moment with this last witness. his drama and theatrics are uncalled for and, they have no place in a court of law.

      I’m praying very hard and, asking that this waste of brain cells, is allowed to get away with this murder of this child. I sure would like to know, exactly how would those who want to see the murderer of this child walk away from this a free village idiot, if this was their child or a white child in general.

      They certainly wouldn’t be showing their ignorance and, I HOPE THEY ARE ALL SATISFIED WITH SEEING TRAYVON’S IMAGE AS HE LOOKED ON THE NIGHT HIS LIFE WAS TAKEN. they can no longer make those insane comments anymore. the ignorance that has surrounded this case, is pathetic and so are the ones showing it.

  88. Woow! says:

    “I was just saying what I remembered”

    That’s what MOM get for not being thorough in his depo of this witness.

  89. Nellie Nell says:

    Did that murdering M F’er just shake his head as if he is disgusted with somebody???? Grrrrrrrr MOM live by Facebook and social media!

  90. Leisa says:

    Oh my Fogen is shaking his head! Yeah! He did not like her and someone on that jury had to see it..

    • Mari says:

      Did you see his eyes when she said standing. They got very big as if to say she saw enough.

      • groans says:

        Yes. The biggest take-away from the cross-exam of this witness is that she apparently REALLY hit a nerve! That’s very obvious.

        The defense doth (or didth) protest too much, methinks!

  91. The petition being on her facebook page is NOT the same as signing it you smarmy asshole.

  92. Yes prosecute the killer of our son. Now what?

  93. Woow! says:

    What petition?

  94. gbrbsb says:

    Why doesn’t Bernie ask her what made her think they were standing? Height, arms in relation to buildings, etc. ? Please Bernie ask her something like that.

  95. Nellie Nell says:

    OMG MOM is one disrespectful ignorant SOB

  96. Leisa says:

    So what if she signed the petition? She wanted it to be investigated. Not a damn thing wrong with that.

  97. Brandy says:

    Dammit! She signed the petition! ugh!

    • cielo62 says:

      So she signed it!! She, like everybody else, wanted a TRIAL because she no doubt didn’t appreciate being blown off by the LEOs!


    • Tzar says:

      actually she never said she did
      and neither did omara
      he asked her and there was a link on her page

      • groans says:

        Right. Too bad Bernie couldn’t re-re-direct her on that, because he doesn’t know how FB works, or what the difference is between “signing” vs. “liking” an e-petition. But I bet at least one of the jurors will know, and can explain it to the others (oldsters, like me)!

    • groans says:

      Nothing wrong with that! A guy was about to get away with murder in her own back yard!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Big deal. Her role isn’t to be impartial. She’s a state’s witness and she’s entitled to her opinion on whether prosecution should occur.

    • Malisha says:

      That’s perfectly FINE. She saw and heard what happened and she knew the killer should have been arrested. SHE IS NOT A JUROR AND DOES NOT HAVE TO BE WITHOUT AN OPINION.

  98. Leisa says:

    Why is Mom limping?

  99. Sophia33 says:

    She held firm that she saw them standing.

  100. dianetrotter says:

    Go BDLR!!!

  101. Sophia33 says:

    I agree.

  102. whonoze says:

    I think the State put Selene up first because they know she is one of the more vulnerable witnesses. I’m expecting W18 to be rock solid.

  103. Leisa says:

    Oh go Bernie. 😉

  104. Sophia33 says:

    Good Bernie! Good!

    Now tie it together. Tell the jury that when she made this statement, she didn’t know that Zimmerman was saying he was attacked at the “T”.

  105. disappointed says:

    Mr West did not ask laughing my ass off

  106. Brandy says:

    If she was a lying stealth witness for Trayvon she could of added more damaging info! Omara is badgering her period! Del le ronda needs to clean this up and hopefully ask was she ever asked what directions the movements were coming from

  107. chi1224 says:

    Bernie is coming out strong!!! YES! He will fix this fuckery!!!

  108. colin black says:

    I like the lack of objections there letting o mara have enough rope as they have plenty aces up there sleeve I m o.

  109. disappointed says:

    Please be good rebuttal!

  110. crazy1946 says:

    I hope the jury is seeing the look of pure hatred that the Fogdiot is showing toward this witness!

    • cielo62 says:

      crazy1946~ gz hates everybody, except that one chick (who has the hots for him) that said a few nice things about him. 


  111. chi1224 says:

    At the end of the day, I still think she is a strong witness for the state. She has no reason to lie. And she is entitled to have an opinion about the events that happened in her back yard!

  112. colin black says:

    Not flailing in fighting flailing as in running fast pace She said.

  113. Sophia33 says:

    I wish she would have elaborated more on why the opportunity never presented itself for her to “Like” the GZ page. Sometimes FB suggests things that you may “Like”. Was the GZ page even presented to her?

    • chi1224 says:

      I wish she would have said- based on what I saw I do in fact hope for justice for Trayvon!

    • Malisha says:

      She’s not a judge and she’s not a juror. She doesn’t have to be impartial. She has to tell what she remembers. If what she remembers makes her believe that fogen killed an innocent kid in her backyard, NATURALLY she would “LIKE” justice for the kid.

      Let’s look at the idea that witnesses who tell stories that contradict Fogen’s stories are motivated by some unexplained (except by speculation about racism) desire to hurt Fogen. They do not have any real motivation to lie about what THEY saw and heard that night. On the other hand, Fogen? Does HE have any real motivation to ie about what he saw and heard and did that night?

      Duh …

      Which party would be more likely to be non-credible: a witness who never knew Trayvon and never knew much about Fogen until after she witnessed a killing? Or Fogen, who would go to prison if his story was not believed?

  114. Tzar says:

    Bernie should have this on redirect

  115. Leisa says:

    The police didn’t care about finding witnesses. They were perfectly content to take Fogen’s word for it.

  116. colin black says:

    Defence are terrified of foggagges attacking Trayvon from Brandi Greens side.

    What foggaggedid he blames on the KID.

    He was the one whom circled Trayvon an came at him from the back entrance.

    As that’s where he was lurking to ambush him.

    Then he hears Trayvon an realises he is still on th dogwalk

    Gets rid off the dispatcher an goes to catch an detain the suspect.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes. I believe that too. It was Fogen who circled around to the back gate while Trayvon probably dawdled on the phone. Then he confronted Trayvon and chased him toward the T.

    • Malisha says:

      Marinade Dave put up a video showing this a while back.

  117. I don’t think I have ever clicked a “like” on any Justice4Trayvon support page. And God is my witness that I support justice for him.

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ I signed the Change.Org page but that’s about it. I have never clicked on FB for Trayvon.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’ve clicked like on just about anything that exists in support of Trayvon and signed several petitions, and have worked steadily in support after considering all the released discovery and realizing that Fogen’s story DOES NOT ADD UP.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides~ That is highly commendable. I’m not a FB person, don’t tweet or do much but read here. The petition was sent to my email and I signed it. I have a FB page but it’s not updated with great frequency.


      • crazy1946 says:

        I would rather run naked thru the town square than open a face book account and give the WHOLE WORLD access to all my personal information! We see here today a valid reason for my thoughts about face book!!!

        • cielo62 says:

          crazy1946~ actually your FB page has ONLY the amount of info you put on it. I don’t have an actual picture of myself (I use another cat avatar); no current residence nor even where I work. The MOST you will get is where I grew up and the name of my high school. People are stupid if they think that one’s party pictures or ANYTHING stupid one posts are “private”.


          • crazy1946 says:

            Cielo62, I wish that what you assume was true, but if you will dig you will find that there is much more information about you available on Face Book than you would ever imagine! They like Google have their hands in your pocket and I don’t think it is your spare change they are feeling for! We as a society opened the door for a massive invasion of privacy and I suppose we deserve what we receive in return!

          • cielo62 says:

            Crazy~ I suppose they COULD follow my IP address. But I don’t see where they have any access to my banking information as the entity FB. I don’t purchase anything through them OR Google.


          • crazy1946 says:

            FB themselves do not attempt to access your banking information, but it has be shown to be a hot bed for Trojans and Virus’s that will access your accounts.. However this is not the place or time to get too heavy into that. Perhaps after this trial is over we can have a more in depth discussion on this topic. Have a wonderful evening, I hope to be here in the morning, unless something happens to prevent my presence..

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m pretty careful about not putting a lot of personal info on FB and also keeping it closed (well, LE can get into it with FB cooperation) but I did – and still do post comments about this case. Of course, if I lived in Seminole County, I’d then not make a good juror or witness.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I’ve clicked like & shared every piece of info from any site that supported Trayvon, I felt like they needed my support.

  118. Sophia33 says:

    Go to 1:45 in LLMPapa’s video. Here sketch is there.

    • bettykath says:

      This video identifies witness 2, her sister, as being the one who saw movement. She says the movement was toward the T. Serino says “away from your house”. She says no, “toward the T”. They repeat this a couple of times. Serino can’t get his head around the idea of the running being further down the path. In the tape of witness 1, she doesn’t mention it a direction, but there are noises on the tape in a critical spot.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I just can not figure out why the state did not just focus on the fact that the was no fight on the ground! And why could she not find this info in the transcripts? Can she be recalled to the stand after listening to her recorded interview? Something is fishy about those transcripts.

  119. chi1224 says:

    Everyone, cancel your facebook accounts if you have one, this kind of sick intrusion is a complete violation of privacy. So fucking what if she has an opinion on FB?????? Doesn’t everbody?????

    • Nellie Nell says:

      The defense does not have a defense so they are going to attack everyone based on social media. If I were her, I would have told him that yes, I signed the petition because I know that they were not on the ground – they were standing!!! Nevermind the f’ing direction.

      MOM has some real issues with people of color. Just the way he talks to them and his body language speaks volumes to his character. Attack attack attack, that is how they thing they are going to win this case. The jury of women will pick up on that and see the pattern.

      When he asked Sean if the knocking could be GZ knocking on his flashlight, well MOM, thanks for confirming that A) It wasn’t dark because your client had a flashlight and B) He was still searching for Trayvon with the flashlight even after being told “We don’t need you to do that”.

      The foolish man brought that to the juries attention by pointing it out since no one ever speculated on what that could have been during court. I sure hope they took note of that.

      As for the lumps, I think that he smashed his head against the wall while in the bathroom when he went to clean himself up. Which is amazing in itself that they would allow him out of their sight after he kills someone.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      They’re going to learn that they have to be careful when using internet sites as evidence. That’s because they can be hacked!

      Just imagine if someone went and used a reverse look up and found her name in an online directory using her address? They could then find her facebook page and hack that petition onto it.

      If I recall, very early on in this case, on, people there had managed to figure out what names belonged to what witness numbers. So it wasn’t any secret. That list is still up and I believe Tchoupi’s work has a list of witnesses names and addresses in it. IIRC correctly.

  120. disappointed says:

    Great so every witness can not want justice for a teen gunned down in their neighborhood.

  121. Ms.X says:

    So he dropped it. She liked a Justice for Trayvon Martin page on facebook, therefore she is a _____________________________.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      A person that knows they were not on the ground when she looked out the door the 1st time and then 15 seconds later she saw a dead kid laying on the ground. Instead of the state focusing on the ‘left to right’ on re-direct, they should have made emphasis on the fact that THEY WERE NOT ON THE GROUND BUT WERE STANDING!!!! Nevermind the direction at this point!

  122. whonoze says:

    She drew the arrow the wrong way on the sketch.

  123. dianetrotter says:

    So no one interviewed her that night. Why? If three neighbors were all looking out and were aware of the others, why were police not directed to them?

  124. Oh noes! She clicked one button on Facebook but not another!

    • Xena says:


      Oh noes! She clicked one button on Facebook but not another

      Didn’t you know? The Zimmerman’s dysfunction is that if you like Trayvon, you have to equally like GZ or you’re a racist. If Florida Supreme Court Rules say that Zim’s family who are witnesses cannot sit in the courtroom, the judge is suppose to violate that Rule because Trayvon’s parents are in the courtroom.

      There must be some deep-seated problems with rejection in that family.

  125. disappointed says:

    Oh for the love of God.

  126. chi1224 says:


  127. colin black says:

    Was there any reason why ?
    Asks O Mara .
    You gave a statement mmmmmm let me think oh yeh an innocent CHILD GOT MURDERED OUT BACK NEAR MY HOUSE.

  128. whonoze says:

    Ah… the Facebook ‘like’.

  129. amsterdam1234 says:

    What she saw was GZ on top of Trayvon. She described the body as wearing a red jacket.

  130. colin black says:

    Look at the bumbs on the Black guy in glasses behind o mara.

    He also must have been assaulted by a side walk.

  131. disappointed says:

    Staggering about, is he admitting his client was drunk?

  132. DruDo says:

    I can’t begin to say how much I dislike O’Mara. Creep…just like his client.

  133. Leisa says:

    She appears to be telling him the truth. Not coming off as a liar at all.