What really happened moments after the gunshot in the Zimmerman case

Saturday, June 22, 2013

Good morning:

Don West impeached his client with the legal document he filed yesterday titled, Defendant’s Specific Response to State’s Motion in Limine Regarding Self-Serving Hearsay Statements of Defendant.

He said at pages 2-3.

Witness 13 and his wife heard a commotion in the back of their townhome. They heard yelling and then heard a shot. Witness 13 grabbed a flashlight and went outside to see what had happened. Within seconds of the shooting, W13 approached Mr. Zimmerman who was staggering, bleeding and breathing hard. The witness observed blood on Mr. Zimmerman’s face and the back of his head consistent with someone having been injured in a fight. Mr. Zimmerman asked W13 if he was bleeding? Witness 13 said “Yes” and W13 asked Mr. Zimmerman what had happened? Mr. Zimmerman told W13 that the other person was “beating me up” and he shot him.

Within a minute or so, Sanford Police Officer Tim Smith arrived on foot at the location where Mr. Zimmerman and W13 were standing. Officer Smith spoke with Mr. Zimmerman at the scene upo his arrival. Mr. Zimmerman acknowledged being the person who fired the shot and that he had a firearm on him. Mr. Zimmerman spontaneously stated that he had yelled for help and that no one helped him.

With that fresh in your mind, please watch what the defendant told the police about those moments during his walk-through for the Sanford Police Department a little less than 24 hours after he killed Trayvon Martin.

Thank you to LLMPapa for preparing these two clips from the walk-through.

Clip 1

Clip 2

Congratulations, Mr. West.

You have succeeded in proving that your client lied.

Can you pass the straight-face test when you argue to Judge Nelson that the defendant’s “spontaneous” statements to W13 are reliable and accurate?

What is she going to think about your credibility and professionalism when the State shows her the walk-through video?

By the way, was his statement to the person he called on his cell phone another “spontaneous” utterance?

As long as you are spillin’ the beans, why don’t you tell us who he called and what he said.

FYI: A few minutes after I posted this article, I reversed the order of the two clips because #2, which is now #1, is more directly relevant given the focus of the article. I apologize for any confusion that may have caused.

669 Responses to What really happened moments after the gunshot in the Zimmerman case

  1. nocamo33 says:

    Anyone concerned about Jose Biased’s statements given his closeness to a key player (one of the investigators in the case). His PR campaign for the defense is reprehensible. Quite frankly he worries me. Why would he think the prosecution has no case given his relation to Serino. What impression would a juror an impressionable juror get from all that? Can the judge order him gagged during the trial? Can someone please order him gagged after too!? I will withdraw that last one!. 😉

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t know what his thing is.

      To me it seems stupid to (a) give the first two drafts of the memo from Serino — charging Murder-2 — to BDLR and calling them “exculpatory evidence” so O’Mara and West could get blindsided; AND (b) go on the news claiming that the “case was weak from the beginning” — directly contradicting his own client who wanted to charge Murder-2 IN THE BEGINNING; and then (c) blab again about the prosecution not having a good case.

      Is he dumb? Who owns him? He and Serino both confuse me. Clearly each of them “serves two masters.” Maybe more than two. We don’t really have enough information to figure out who and how many masters, YET.

      Feds, are you still there? Are you listening? Are you awake? Are you all Nakasone’s in your own right, stating categorically that nothing can be stated?

  2. ic2fools says:

    I don’t think Jr. could have tweeted that on 2/26/2012; maybe he tweeted that on 2/26/2013, THIS YEAR, a year after the killing. Otherwise he (a) would not know Trayvon Martin’s name and (b) would not believe anyone was interested in reading a tweet about all this because it was not yet part of the “news.”

    Good morning, I do see the err I made. I do not tweet and read the date I viewed in the LLmpapas’ video incorrectly, Trust me I am glad I did post it and you took the time reply to my mistake or I may not have realized my mistake reading tweets. Thanks for helping me understand.

    @concerned citizen

    I don’t understand. He sent that tween on February 26, 2012? That wouldn’t make any sense.

    No one knew who GZ was then or anything about the crime.

    I stand corrected, I didn’t understand and made a mistake in that post.and apologize for a confusing post.

    Ya’ll have a great day.

  3. tony reay says:

    sadly, I cannot actually hear very much of the two videos at the top because of the mix of the music which makes George virtually inaudible.

  4. Stormwatch says:

    I notice the States witness and evidence list has an entry concerning the cell phone records for Robert Zimmerman Jr. for the date of February 26, 2012. Did the defendant call his brother right after the shooting?

    • ic2fools says:


      I do know that he did send a tweet 2/26/2012 that said:

      Robert Zimmerman Jr.@zimmerman,jr

      GZ waited a long time to connect to PD. He didn’t call PD because Trayvon Martin was walking home. Something besides walking home made him suspicous.

      I don’t know who Junior called or who may have called him.

      Check out this video showing 2/26/2012: tweet

      • concernedczen says:

        I don’t understand. He sent that tween on February 26, 2012? That wouldn’t make any sense.

        No one knew who GZ was then or anything about the crime.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think Jr. could have tweeted that on 2/26/2012; maybe he tweeted that on 2/26/2013, THIS YEAR, a year after the killing. Otherwise he (a) would not know Trayvon Martin’s name and (b) would not believe anyone was interested in reading a tweet about all this because it was not yet part of the “news.”

      • Jun says:

        Robbie the Racist could have tweeted it, to be honest

        If you look at his phone records, he and GZ talked, after not talking for many many years, the same night as the murder

        I am taking a wild guess but I am guessing Fogen told him to go on with the smear campaign

      • Malisha says:

        But they did not yet know Trayvon Martin’s name!

        • ic2fools says:


          But they did not yet know Trayvon Martin’s name!

          I understand the date I posted is incorrect and I replied as such.

          However, that does not negate the fact Junior posted that tweet this year 2/26/2013. And LLMPapa will not post a video that is not factual.

          It is my fault posting the incorrect date of Juniors’ tweet and I have admitted that fault.

          Again thank you for pointing out my error as I previously posted.

    • ic2fools says:


      I personally believe this is one reason why Junior wants all charges dropped. His tweet is the connection to his knowledge of the tragedy. We won’t know until trial.

      • ic2fools says:

        One more thing, Fogen knew Trayvon was walking home. How else did Junior know and would make that tweet.

        Fogen, knew Trayvon was walking home, and how would he know that, why would he know that.

        LLMPapa video revealed in Fogens NEN call he told operater Trayvon was wearing a light grey hoodie. By that time Trayvon’s hoodie was dark from the rain, as it was shown in the 7-11 video. So that means Fogen had to have seen Trayvon before it began to rain:

      • ic2fools says:

        correction fogen said grey hoodie:

        0:33 Zimmerman: Yeah, a, a dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now and he’s just staring,

  5. willisnewton says:

    BillT, I want to ask you to consider the following:

    This “middle position” is important, and GZ marked exactly this position on the map Singleton provided him, right before amending it and relating the “doubled back/circled the car story that is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording and his own contradictory account of his position at the clubhouse parking lot.

    But if, as you suggest BillT, if he exited his vehicle there by the mail kiosk you have to take into account how far GZ could have traveled in the time he trotted after the teen. He seems to stop the “wind noise” and pause after making haste behind the teen (and admitting he was following.) How fast was he traveling? At pace faster than a walk but slower than running, say a jog or a quick walk, by my reckoning he’d be exactly at the T assuming he stopped where he claims to have parked – near the cut thru path. Keep in mind he had no way of knowing who saw his car or not, just (probably) that he had asked a confederate or his wife to move it away. Were he still parked at the first corner by the mail kiosk, he doesn’t travel far enough to justify stopping. And if he had left his car by the mail kiosk he’d be risking being caught in a lie.

    To me it makes the most sense to take into account the fact that George himself said he MOVED his car during the NEN call. (He claims he moved from clubhouse parking lot to near the cut-thru. His account is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording timing. SOMETHING else has to have happened.)

    If this move from near the mail kiosk to near the cut thru really happened, and I believe it did, then there is corroborating evidence to support this notion – both GZ’s testimony and the accounts of Dee Dee/W8, who related to Ben Crump that the CAR was following Trayvon at one point, causing him to run away.

    She said this in passing to Crump and when BDLR questioned her, he failed to ask the specific question to get the response she’d given to Crump so she doesn’t speak to it directly. BDLR didn’t understand YET the sequence of events.

    This worries me to know end, because I fear the prosecution MISSED a huge opportunity there that I HOPE they make up for at trial, having reviewed the data since then. This dual action, following in a car and then following on foot established a great deal that speaks to intent, part of the M2 charge.

    I’m convinced GZ MOVED his car after saying, “these a55holes always get away,” and it was this action, a slow car to pedestrian chase that caused the teen to run away, and then that action precipitated GZ parking the car at the cut thru and rushing out after the teen. There certainly are noises that are worth listening to as this talk goes by. And again, GZ himself wanted SPD to know he moved his car after Trayvon passed him by. He’s just lying about where this happened. GZ claims he was passed TWICE where it’s clear on the NEN recording it only happened once.

    Keep in mind that GZ NEVER offered the information that the teen RAN. Not does he ever mention the mail kiosk, as Dee Dee does.) He worked hard to omit, obscure and obfuscate that point and ONLY speaks to the running when promoted. When asked “how” the teen ran, he strangely has NO answer at all. Why did the kid run, if he was already so close to the dog walk? IMO he ran because the car that had trolled the mail kiosk FOLLOWED him down TTL and unnerved him, possibly with the headlights still off. WHERE did he run? To a place where cars can’t go, between the buildings.

    Again, listen to Crump/dee dee to hear the passage where she confirms Trayvon told her the CAR was following him. It’s a key passage.

    • BillT says:

      please remember when asked on the nen call near the end about meeting at his truck the words by the mailboxes are part of that exchange…..he agrees at first then realizes he wasnt going to his truck and asked could they just call him……that part confirms that he KNEW he was NOT heading towards his truck when the nen call ended…..

      TY for the effort along with me of trying to determine the unknown by using all the known factors.

      • Xena says:


        please remember when asked on the nen call near the end about meeting at his truck the words by the mailboxes are part of that exchange…

        Funny — I’m just getting ready to upload a video about that. Great minds think alike. 🙂

      • Xena says:

        @BillT. Here’s the video. GZ had no intentions of returning to his truck.

    • ay2z says:

      If Tom Own and Primus did the work for OS, it was wise of the state to get in there and explore every possiblity, new old, cutting edge, subjective, objective. Because had they not done this, you can bet your bottom dollar that the defense would have used these experts to their advantage.

      The state did a thoroughvetting of the science, and even concluded that the best still, backed by both defense and state experts that familial listeners are able to identify a speaker best still. There’s still bias, but that is well within the ability of jurors to handle.

      I tbelieve that the state is just fine with JN’s ruling, and can focus on their clear cut case, apart from these distractions and controversies.

      Much better chance of the jury not getting bogged down in absolutes.

      This is good. It’s thoroughly investigated, and there can not be any further complaints from the defense about no time no money, no time, poor us.

  6. Jun says:

    Let’s wait till we actually see the ruling because I heard that

    1) The 911 tape is coming in
    2) People familiar with the voice can testify
    3) Since the expert’s are familiar with Fogen’s voice, they can testify that it’s not him screaming and they hear him threatening Trayvon

  7. Dave says:

    I can’t see why the state wouldn’t want that tape introduced or why the defense would. The unredacted version will be played because witness names etc. will no longer be private.

  8. ks says:

    Question for anybody, can the prosecution still use Ed Primeau? It looks like JN’s ruling excludes Reich and Owens and that’s it.

    • bettykath says:

      What does the motion for the Frye hearing say? If the defense motioned for a Frye hearing for only the two experts and not the third, then the decision applies to only the two. It will be up to the defense to object to the third expert and there we go again. But since the judge has the information and the arguments have been made, it shouldn’t take so long. (I truly hope!)

      • ks says:

        As near as I can tell, it’s just Owens and Reich. I think Primeau is on the prosecution’s witness list but I’m not sure whether he’s done anything that’s been turned over as part of discovery.

  9. Xena says:

    @Professor. If the State does not introduce the 911 tape at trial, can the defense introduce it?

    I ask for several reasons, one specifically that Bernie has used GZ’s statement that it doesn’t sound like him throughout pre-trial proceedings and can have Serino testify to that fact. Can he do that at trial without playing the tape?

    Also, what are the chances of that tape being played for the jury in private since the one released to the public is redacted?

    • Malisha says:

      It was redacted? Only to block the names of the callers, right? But since the callers will be witnesses, the tapes are no longer redacted, rationally, right?

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        In the version we all hear played regularly do you hear the 911 operator say…. “I don’t hear anything…. Can you hear anyone?” after the gunshot…. I have only heard THAT version once…and it was said to be an “Unredacted” version of the 911 call….

      • Xena says:


        It was redacted? Only to block the names of the callers, right?

        I’m speaking specifically to the 911 call that captured the screams and gunshot in the background. It redacted the name and address of the caller.

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    At what point does rationalizing about the result of jury selection and the ruling on the voice experts actually represent a retreat on our part?

    Ain’t gonna let racism turn me around
    Turn me around, turn me around
    Ain’t gonna let racism turn me around
    I’m gonna keep on a-walkin’, keep on a-talkin’
    Marchin’ up to freedom’s land

    Ain’t gonna let no hatred turn me around
    Turn me around, turn me around
    Ain’t gonna let no hatred turn me around
    I’m gonna keep on a-walkin’, keep on a-talkin’
    Marchin’ up to freedom’s land

    Ain’t gonna let injustice turn me around
    Turn me around, turn me around
    Ain’t gonna let injustice turn me around
    I’m gonna keep on a-walkin’, keep on a-talkin’
    Marchin’ up to freedom’s land

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Justice for Trayvon!

    • Malisha says:

      Interesting question. In spring this year I was pretty sure there was no cause for concern about my earlier theory that we were all being manipulated into accepting a plea deal that would be a cop-out and an ipso faccto act of corruption. But now, not so much. Refusing to allow a perfectly legal peremptory challenge is bizarre and ruling that methods both sides agreed were acceptable gave rise to excluding individual experts who used them are two extremely peculiar rulings. This judge is very VERY smart. So how did this occur if not part of a questionable larger picture being hidden from view by sleight of many hands?

      Let’s confront it even if it is as sickening as it feels.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Malisha, it sure looks like there is an Okie Doke being pulled by all involved. and by that I mean the state as well as the defense. the make up of the jury as well as the 911 tape of Trayvon screaming and begging for is life, is another perplexing issue here.

        Seeing that the state expert witnesses cannot testify, then why in the hell would they not want to use the tape? have they worked out as you said a plea deal and, maybe this is why Fogen wasn’t in court yesterday. there is something very strange going on here.

    • cielo62 says:

      YAHTC- never! We still have the forensics!


    • Sleuth says:


      Now that’s what I’m talkin’ bout! I just love your rendition of one of my favorite songs from the Civil Rights era.

      I never lost one ounce of worry over today’s Frye hearing decision. I just believed all along the State did not need it in order to meet its burden, and had a very strong case without it.

      I think the State and jurors will do just fine without the voice experts. It’s no coincidence that we have an all female jury, or a female judge named Debra, who are all a part of a system which is often referred to as “Lady Justice”.

      Hang in there, Justice For Trayvon Benjamin Martin is coming!

  11. silk says:

    HAy. Forgive me for this, but jn is bullshit. She is a soft judge. U every1 here knows it !!! Look at the way west and omarA has been lying and disrespecting her. And the court of law . Look At the wAy west act At the frye hearing , like a fool and they treated her like she was a nobody! First ,no black jurors , now no audio. Let me say this. U have to remember that this case is in florida. Judge Nelson Is baby sitting weSt. While omara has achieved probably the dream jury ! In florida!!!

    • Trained Observer says:

      I believe JN will be tough when it counts — at sentencing.

    • Malisha says:

      I believe if this does go to and through trial this “dream jury” is going to convict the defendant.

      My only concern is that there is a plea deal instead of a trial. I don’t trust Corey and now I’m not sure whom I trust. Because although it is true that a lengthy battle of experts and anti-experts (because defense has no actual experts, just anti-experts) would be a negative and would only offer more opportunities for media circus stuff, still, legally, the ruling on the Frye hearing is pretty obviously wrong. METHOD used should have passed the Frye test and it did. That’s not only true technically but it’s true logically.

      This is distracting. Why was Fogen absent Friday when there was no logical reason for his absence? And why no stories about that?

    • Dave says:

      If Bernie hadn’t struck him we might have had this guy on the jury:

      DISCLAIMER: This is not my video and I don’t necessarily endorse the title.

      • Sleuth says:

        I don’t care what B-35 said, he was pro-State, but was trying to pull the wool over the defense. This man, in my opinion, was a stealth juror.

        Interestingly, he seems to go all out of his way to mention negative information circulated about Trayvon, including his pictures, but I don’t recall him mentioning anything negative about the confessed murderer.

        In addition to criticizing every AA leader involved at the beginning, he also criticized U. S. Congresswoman (Florida) Fredericka Wilson, “the lady in the pink hat”. I think that was a tell tale sign for BDLR, and maybe even for the defense.

        This woman has been at the forefront of finding Rilya Wilson, a missing child, presumed to be dead. She enacted the Rilya Wilson law, and from what I have read, she started a mentoring program for young AA males called 500 Role models.

        Now tell me, what AA man would not admire a person like her, and all that she has done on behalf of AA youths?


      • Dave says:

        Some people still think that President Obama is a stealth liberal.

      • Trained Observer says:

        OMG — that “lady in the pink hat” remark was about Fredricka? The Rilya Wilson case is one of Florida’s saddest ever.

    • Judge Nelson denied a gag order, denied black jurors and denied expert testimony. WTFF is going on here?

      • Sophia33 says:

        I wonder if he was trying to being a stealth juror? But I’m glad that Bernie didn’t risk.

      • type1juve says:

        It seems to me that everything is being done to facilitate a murderer going free. I hope I’m wrong, but it appears to me the fix is in on this case.

        • cielo62 says:

          Type- you are very wrong. There is no “fix”. What exactly has swung to GZs favor? Nothing! The jury gets to hear the tape and decide for themselves who us screaming. 5 of the 6 are mothers. There is one Hispanic in the jury, hence there can be no appeals about no minorities on the jury. The no gag order, as much as we wanted one, has again removed ant ammo for the defense to claim bias and remove Judge Nelson. There is no fix. You can’t fix stupid. And GZ is a stupid murderer.


    • Jun says:

      Wait till you see the ruling first

      Anything can be appealed as well

      The Frye hearing is for new methods… the defense claims its new and Nelson agreed allegedly… if so, the state can ask for a Daubert Hearing

      Allegedly the ruling is the tape is allowed in, witnesses can testify what they heard, and people familiar with the voices can testify… technically the experts are familiar with Fogen’s voice so they can testify it’s not Fogen. and also testify they hear Fogen threatening Trayvon

      Robbie The Racist and Pa Fogen, are the only ones claiming it’s Fogen, and they are listed for the state and are not necessary witnesses because they were not there and they are idiots

      As for the jury, I dont know what to think, I did not watch it…

  12. Let it be known!

    3ChicsPolitico is going on the record for being AGAINST this ruling by Judge Nelson in denying expert testimony.

    I am highly ticked right now!

  13. CherokeeNative says:

    This has me a little unnerved – Media is reporting that defense is claiming they can still call their audio experts to testify regarding the tapes – I thought they failed to identify audio experts as witnesses except for purpose of Frye Motion. I find it hard to believe the court would allow this. Professor?

    • ks says:

      It’s just posturing. As you state, they haven’t identified any experts for the witness list. They are trying to claim they can call experts to rebut lay witnesses in terms of whether anybody can identify the voices. If you look past the smoke and mirrors that’s silly because we know they’re only two options for the voices on the tape and the idea that they are unidentifiable by anybody is absurd.

      Also, that would mean they would potentially be rebutting their own witnesses as well as the prosecutions and would open the door for the prosecution to call their own experts to rebut them.

      It’s just the defense sowing confusion as usual and trying to conflate identifying content with identification of person.

      • Dave says:

        Judge Nelson’s owner only precludes the state from calling Reich and Owen. If the defense can call in other experts to rebut evidence presented then so can the state, as long as its not Owen or Reich.

      • ks says:

        Exactly. That’s one of the reasons why I said the defense is blowing smoke as usual.

      • Dave says:

        That should be “Judge Nelson’s ORDER”. I had better quit now. My typing is getting steadily worse.

    • Xena says:


      Media is reporting that defense is claiming they can still call their audio experts to testify regarding the tapes –

      For what purpose? To say they cannot identify the voice in the background of the 911 call? If the defense goes there, the State rebuts, so we’re right back to the Frye hearing stage.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Thanks Xena and all for your comments – that was my point. I cannot believe that the defense will be able to call their own experts and the Judge not allow the State to have rebuttal experts. I agree with the blowing smoke but was reassuring myself that I hadn’t missed anything.

        • Xena says:


          I agree with the blowing smoke but was reassuring myself that I hadn’t missed anything.

          Don’t worry your pretty head about it. Be assured.

    • Jun says:

      I would wait till we saw the ruling before jumping the gun

      the media could be wrong, yet again

  14. MollyK says:

    I couldn’t care less about the Frye ruling. I have never thought the screams were necessary to the case. There is much stronger evidence that is unassailable.

    One thing that has always bothered me is that GZ never gave a good reason for being suspicious of Trayvon. He offered only vague statements about there being something wrong with him, about his looking like he was on drugs, etc. If the police had shown up, could they even have stopped and questioned him? GZ never gave a good reason in any of the tapes, interviews, re-enactments. If he wants to offer a good reason now, he can get on the stand.

    If I were presenting the case, I would start with the bottom line; a 17-yo boy headed out to buy candy and lost his life. He was pursued by an armed vigilante whose ill will is evident in the NEN tape. I would play the 911 tapes of the screams and shot for dramatic reasons, with Sybrina on the stand. Then I would point out a few crystal clear examples that contradict GZ’s story. The distance between the place where GZ claims the shooting took place and the position of Trayvon’s body. The lack of GZ DNA beneath TM’s fingernails, or injuries to TM’s hands, despite GZ’s claims that TM was smothering his bloody nose and smashing his head against the sidewalk and punching him. The misalignment of the bullet holes. The impossibility of GZ being able to draw his gun with TM mounted on him. (This could be demonstrated in court, and if GZ wants to object, he can go on the stand and demonstrate himself.)

  15. ladystclaire says:

    I’m going to agree with Tracy’s remark that he made on HLN, during his talk with Vinnie Politan. I don’t think Sybrina is going to hold up too good listening to all that is going to come out about the last minutes of her baby boys life. she has been strong for now because, in the words of the late Mamie Till Mobley, she had a job to do for the past sixteen months.

    That job was to get Justice for her baby boy and, to also help change these SYG laws and, to work against the gun violence that has taken over this country. I pray that GOD give her strength to make it to the finish line with what she has fought so hard for and, that is zjustice for Trayvon. sista Sybrina, I’m right there beside you in spirit.

    • MollyK says:

      I didn’t see the remark, but I think that Sybrina will want to testify in court. She has shown tremendous strength, and nothing that will come out in court will be new to her. I am sure that she has re-lived her son’s last few minutes a thousand times in her mind. I feel like my heart is twisting whenever I see her, and I wish I could help. I hope she knows how many people are behind her, as you say, in spirit.

    • kllypyn says:

      the mayor of sanford said she became hysterical when she first heard those screams and ran out of the room.She knew instantly that was Trayvon. A mother will always know. her baby’s voice. Even if the father isn’t sure. It’s possible she nay brake down when she hears those screams in the courtroom.

      • ladystclaire says:

        You are right Kelly, as a mother I know my son’s voice in any instance. this is just a mother’s instinct to know and, we are never wrong. that was her baby’s voice and, she knew it right away. I don’t give a damn what Fogen’s mental family says.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Kellpyn, the last part of your comment is exactly what Tracy was speaking of. he said what we all know and saw in her for the past 16 months but, he said that he doesn’t think she will be able to keep it together during this trial.

        He didn’t say this in the same exact way that I did but, it still amounts to the above. they showed her in court during these last few weeks and, she did not look too good. you can see it in her precious eyes and face.

      • Yorazigo says:

        Perhaps she could choose not to be in the courtroom when the tape is played? Unless prosecutor needs her to listen to tape while she testifies.

        In Casey Anthony case grandparents left the courtroom when some very terrible pictures of the child were shown (I can’t remember exactly what they were), but I do remember when evidence was about to be shown, they left the room & then returned after

  16. Beverly Lawson says:

    NPR commenter saying the decision does not preclude the tape coming in at trial…

    • ks says:

      The tape will come in. The judge’s ruling said that either side can use it and have people known to either party state their opinions on who the voices belong to.

      • this lawyer is saying this:

        please say this is NOT true!!
        Lyle Mazin ‏@LyleMazin 11m
        .@VazquezReports Defense has 2 arguments:1) Identity of voice cant be determined 2) If it can be, then voice is #zimmerman #AdvantageDefense
        View conversation
        Lyle Mazin ‏@LyleMazin 30m
        .@VazquezReports …and of course juries are ALWAYS instructed to use common sense. They will ultimately decide who and what can be heard.
        View conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More
        Lyle Mazin ‏@LyleMazin 33m
        .@VazquezReports Defense experts can potentially still be called to rebut lay witness testimony that any human can ability to identify voice
        View conversation

    • willisnewton says:

      actually the defense experts agreed that someone who knows the individual is often able to identify a voice with a very small sample, better than any machine.

  17. vickie s. votaw says:

    My son was kicked out of school for giving one student something from another student, the student thought s/he was getting pot, but it wasn’t.my son was just passing it like a note.my ex fought the school tooth & nail but couldn’t get anything done to help him. My ex believed it was because my boys were like the “poor white trash” of the school.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      The above post is way out of place, I’m sorry if it messes w/ anyone’s thought processes

      • MollyK says:

        I’ll contribute to the topic of over-zealous punishment of students by public schools. My sons were never expelled or suspended, but they were disciplined for trivial infractions. One of them was sentenced to after-school detention. His offense? He forgot to have a parent sign an exam. He was about 12 at the time. There was a whole roomful of “good boys” in detention that day. They had done well on the test, but for some reason the teacher demanded that everyone have their exams signed.

        My other son had an awful 2nd grade teacher, who sent home notes about his misbehavior all the time. She even had special printed forms for the purpose. One day, she sent a note home because my son was “hopping on one foot on his way to the water fountain.” He was 7 at the time. I kept the notes in a file and we get a good laugh out of them every once in a while.

        So I’m not too impressed that Trayvon was suspended. Especially given that he was black.

        • cielo62 says:

          MollyK- I’m a 2nd grade teacher and I would never get upset over something so innocent. One quick “cut it out” is all it ever takes to maintain classroom management. What a fruit loop for a teacher.


      • ladystclaire says:

        It’s not out of place at all Vicki so, don’t even think that way. I wrote a comment last night about our Justice system and, who the cards are stacked against and, I’m pretty sure we all know the answer to that. it’s poor whites and, minorities.

        It’s no need to sugar coat it because, it’s the truth and some of the same is happening in our public school systems, as in the case of your son. don’t ever be afraid to speak your mind and, as long as you are right, and never be ashamed to do so.

        GOD’S blessings and peace to you and your family.

      • cielo62 says:

        Vickie- it fits right in. Prejudice isn’t always color. There’s many other classifications, and assuming socio-economic status is also prejudice.


  18. JustMe says:

    Okay, we are all very disappointed with today’s ruling, frankly pissed is more like it, but we can’t change the ruling… But, I do have a question, could Tom Owen STILL testify proving that he could NOT hear any muffling during those screams?

    • Cindy says:

      i truly believe a layperson can hear that there was no muffling while the screams are being heard!

      • JustMe says:

        I clearly know that, but that was not my question.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Cindy, I believe that also, just like I believe a layperson can also hear Fogen in the background mocking Trayvon’s screams of anguish. I think he should have been charged with M1, with the DP definitely on the table. he mocked that child and, his friends saw and heard him doing it.

    • JustMe says:

      Professor, if you could answer me, that would be great. Thank you…

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Re: “But, I do have a question, could Tom Owen STILL testify proving that he could NOT hear any muffling during those screams?”

      This is Judge Nelson’s statement: “This order does not prevent the parties from playing the tapes at trial or from calling witnesses familiar with the voice of the Defendant or Martin to testify regarding the identity of the person(s) making the screams.”

      Witnesses must be “familiar with the voice of the Defendant or Martin to testify …. ”

      I believe it to be Judge Nelson’s intent that the witnesses must be familiar with Trayvon or Zimmerman’s live, in-person voice, and not a recording.

      We know the parents will witness.

      I am waiting to see Jahvaris Martin witness. We expect Sybrina to be an emotionally powerful witness.

      The impact by Jahvaris will surprise everyone.

  19. bellesouth says:

    There is a footnote in that pleading where it says that W13 took a picture of the back of his head.

  20. #IAMTrayvon Because I’m a mother of 2 boys and I’m tired of living in fear of my boys being shot dead for walking in black skin.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      #IAMTrayvon because neither my kids nor anyone else’s kids in any shade of the human rainbow should have to suffer as Trayvon did

  21. Valerie says:

    I am also disappointed with Judge Nelson’s ruling today. However, I do not believe this will take away from the evidence already at hand.I have not read all the posts here and dont know whether anyone has previously mentioned this but,we still have the ear witnesses who will testify that they heard a loud and argumentative “back and forth” prior to the screaming and the gunshot. To me this completely wipes out Fogen;s statement that he was sucker punched without warning after Trayvon ’emerged” from the shadows. LLMPapa has a short clip of a witness who states she heard the “what are you doing around here” which preceded the screams and collaborates with witness 8 testimony. This is one example I believe will come into play at trial and I am sure the State has more to prove that the events did not happen as Fogen states.The SA office attorneys have hundreds of years of experience combined and I am sure they have heard every lies imaginable that a criminal can utter and they know how to dispel those lies.

  22. Shari says:

    Are you on twitter? Use the tag #IAMTrayvon right now. Ben Crump is RT’ing those who state why they are Trayvon.

  23. Sleuth says:


    Great job! You certainly out did yourself this time. My thanks you to you, LLMPapa, and all you assisted.

    Regarding the videos you posted, in addition to deliberately failing to mention phone calls he made, the photos of his head, he also failed to mention he asked someone to call his wife, or did I miss that?

  24. colin black says:


    This was how Trayvon covered so much ground so fast

    • BillT says:

      clearly fogen now placed his truck at the clubhouse when he exited it……reality is the truck was BETWEEN the 2 locations he claims it was, he didnt park at the clubhouse, he parked one the bend BY the mailbox kiosk, there he could see Martin near the clubhouse, then walking towards him and past him and then on towards the tee…he got out of his truck there and never returned to it.

      • willisnewton says:

        please see my reply at the end of the thread, misplaced by my unruly laptop

        I think you are right about where GZ parked but wrong about where he exited – I think he moved his car after “these azzholes always get away”

  25. Woow! says:

    Do any of you guys know how BDLR and MOM are deposing today? Did BDLR complete Shellie’s depo? Has transcripts of any of the depos taken of any of the parties (witesses/family, etc.) been released?

    @proff and cranstation my yahoo account has been hijacked so I’m using my google account to post going forward.

  26. ay2z says:

    LOL!! what media op hungry O’Mara friendly defense lawyer Diane Tennis says about Don WEst–

    What she’s been smoking or what rock has she been under recently to make this statement about Don West in her role as media legal analyst for this case??

    Going forward, “I think he’s going to be very hard to fluster,” said Orlando defense attorney Diana Tennis. “I don’t know that I could come up with a more calm, collected, unflappable legal duo than Mark O’Mara and Don West.”


    • Trained Observer says:

      Talking head legal eagle money must be good for Tennis or anyone to be so willing to make a complete fool of themselves on air.

      We will see how unflappable this pair of defense dufuses is, starting next week.

      • Malisha says:

        They may be “unflappable.” Maybe they have the same psychopharmacologist as Fogen. But whether they are flapped or not is not evidence in the case and won’t change the evidence in the case.

        As to West doing a good job in the Frye hearing, I still don’t see it. I know he WON but I can’t figure out how the job he did was good unless Judge Nelson honestly got so confused she couldn’t tell the real legal question (Is the methodology generally accepted in the forensic community?) from the red (or pink) herring: “IS this acceptable methodology sufficient to form an expert opinion (whether right or wrong) about the particular sample tested?”

        Judge Nelson may have taken the “safe” way out in deciding not to let in the two experts who would definitely have made the case take an extra two months and which would have subjected her and the jury to the excruciating experience of listening to West further decompose. But I do not change my mind about my belief that the Judge made a legally erroneous ruling.

        This will not mean that Fogen cannot be convicted because NO amount of screaming or unscreaming from or attributable to either or both assailant and/or victim has any effect on the real probative evidence which, again, consists of:

        NEN call (ill will and malice)
        PURSUIT (depraved mind)
        KILLING (admitted)
        DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE AFTER KILLING (depraved mind and indifference to human life)
        CONFIRMATION of criminal intent (depraved mind and indifference to human life)

        No shrieks or particular words are needed for the elements of murder-2 to all be proven. And shrieks do not prove self-defense.

        Still, I believe the ruling was wrong.

    • Rachael says:

      “a more calm, collected, unflappable legal duo than Mark O’Mara and Don West.”

      Are you sh*tting me? I really thought they were going to have to send West to the hospital Friday and if he ends up Skyping from a room in ICU/CCU Monday, I won’t be surprised.

      • Trained Observer says:

        If Don West — forever processing — is truly collected and unflappable, then we need to hand him an Oscar for ability to act like a guy going over the edge.

        When I look at West, chawing on his tobacco, I am reminded of the movie Network’s Howard Beale, the aging UBS news anchor, who went nuts on air, a la “I am as mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore.”

        It was Big Willie, I think, who a thread or so ago posted a clip of West from a year ago. Compare it to how he looks and sounds now. This is a trainwreck coming and nobody in Seminole County seems inclined to stop it.

  27. amsterdam1234 says:

    Here is a link to the order. http://tinyurl.com/kkcbo72

    To my non legal brain, it looks like Nelson only ruled that Reich’s testimony can’t come in to identify the person screaming in the tapes. As far as I can tell, this order would not prohibit Reich to testify about background noises in either one of the recordings he has been working on.

    I hope the legal minds will jump in and clarify.

    • Nef05 says:

      IANAL – But, she noted “listener bias” and no other expert corroboration of what he heard.

      So, JN denied testimony from Reich as well, based on confusing the issues and misleading the jury.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Yes, I read the order again and she is pretty specific about excluding Reich and Owen. She pointed to the weak points in the States argument and I do agree with her there. The State never bothered to bring in a third party and they didn’t get the software manufacturer to testify about Owen’s software and how he used it.

        I am not happy about the state losing this argument, but I am not to disappointed about not having a repeat of the Frye hearing in front of the jury.

      • Nef05 says:

        Not happy either, but I agree – I don’t think anyone wants a repeat of that Frye Hearing. Imagine West being given free reign on cross examination, again. It could be weeks before he’s done. *shudders*

  28. ZCBest says:

    I am late but I read all the threads. I am saddened by the let down of Judge Nelson’s decision. But I stand firm in knowing that Fogen will not get away with killing an unarmed 17 year old kid. Trayvon did not die in vain. And while our justice system is effed all the way up, I have faith.

    I know I stand in great company when I say, we will get Justice for Trayvon. Happy Saturday everyone. I can’t wait until West’s lies catch up with him…getting my poppy corn ready.

    See you folks on Monday!

    • ladystclaire says:

      Happy Saturday to you as well and, I’m not having popcorn but, I’ll be right in the mix come Monday AM. Fat Boy will hopefully be on his way to his new home. he won’t have to worry about his land lord coming to collect the rent and, he won’t have to call LE on them either because, they are LE at his new home for 35-life.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Hear, hear, ZCBest.

      If a homicide victim were bashed over the head with a mantle clock covered with the assaulter’s finger prints and no others, would we want endless testimony on how the clock was made … whether it was a genuine antique or a cheap knockoff .. whether it kept correct time … or how much it would cost to repair?

      Could be that this ruling by JN was brilliant. Not allowed, because it doesn’t matter what any of these experts think.

      Play these 911 calls for the jurors and let them figure it out.

  29. disappointed says:

    Good afternoon. IMO when George did the “drive thru” of the crime scene is where he started marking mistakes. He places Trayvon across the retreat by F Taffe’s place. Now Trayvon has to walk all the way around to the other side but he also has to circle his vehicle and then run. All of that in 4 minutes or so? That seems like a lot of area to cover plus come back to circle. Am I crazy thinking it’s to much area?
    Why are you all upset about the experts? I am NOT an expert and I knew who it was before the Frys hearing. Keep the faith. Trayvon will get Justice.

  30. Sophia33 says:

    Specifically how did the police try to direct their statements?

    • Malisha says:

      Austin’s mother said that as her son was telling the police what he witnessed, the police were CORRECTING HIM to make him say something different. Serino told the teacher witness that the screams she heard were emitted by the person who had survived the killing, not from the victim. There were several other examples and I have forgotten them all. Basically, after contact with Smith, Lee and/or Wolfinger, the “investigators” on the scene were “guiding” the witnesses into what to say. Furthermore, W-18 tried to give the police info and they did not want to hear it. She had to jump through hoops to get her statement taken and she felt obligated as a citizen to do so — but how many other people have witnessed things, been discouraged by the SPD from giving their stories, and just decided for one reason or another to shut up and go about their business. In fact, if you look at O’Mara’s protest that Trayvon’s parents would be “biased” as witnesses because the HOA paid them a settlement, think of this: ALL HOMEOWNERS IN RTL would be biased into holding back from admitting what they saw if what they saw amounted to a self-appointed NW “Captain” murdering a kid in their backyards. They wouldn’t want to contribute to the conclusion that they should be made to pay damages to the family of a murdered youth, since they empowered the murderer repeatedly in a variety of negligent (and even culpable) ways. Imagine telling residents, in WRITING, to call Fogen, rather than the police, when they saw something suspicious! That directly violates everybody’s First Amendment rights and specifically mis-directs citizen responsibility to law enforcement authorities!

      Every single homeowner in RTL had incentive to lie in Fogen’s favor and/or to withhold evidence against Fogen after the gunshot on 2/26/2012. Every damn single one.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Wow! While I knew about the 14-year old, I didn’t know about how hard W-18 had to work to get her statements in. And you have a good point about HOA.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Malisha, your comment is very well stated and to the point. those witnesses ar RTL definitely saw and heard more than what they have told. also, where in the hell is Oysterman the BFF of Fogen, hiding out these days? he hasn’t made a peep for while and, I hope that just might mean that he has flipped.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Sophia22 — When one younger kid living at the Retreat at Twin Lakes (R@TL) and walking his dog told police what he saw on the positioning of Fogen and Trayvon on the grass including what they were wearing, cops “corrected” him on who was wearing what color. That made a difference on who was on top.

    • Rachael says:

      Also, as pointed out in the article, when you ask a question and shake your head yes while asking it, that can be pretty subliminally leading, you know what I mean (shaking my head yes).

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        And if we listen to the interview where the 911 tape is played for the killer …. he is asked….Do you hear that? he says “NO”…. he is then TOLD…. “that is you screaming”….HE WAS TOLD…. and the killer whispers “That doesn’t even sound like me”….

  31. Nef05 says:

    Popping back in before firing up the grill (burgers made w/lipton onion&mushroom soup mix. so easy, so yummy).

    Let’s not forget that as well as the jury’s own ears, they will also have witness testimony. While Mary and Selma are solid about the screams. I think that these mothers (and one lady not a mother) will find the Teacher most credible, as well as young Austin. Also, both of these witnesses have a story to tell about the police attempting to direct their statements, if the prosecution goes there – which I think they might have to, in Austin’s case.

    I think by the teacher’s profession, she may have a slight “expert” implication, and I think the mothers will SEE young Austin and sympathize with him having to testify and readily give him the benefit of believing the truth when they hear it. He’ll probably be a little nervous and frightened, dressed in his good clothes and be a living representative of the “concept” that is Trayvon Martin, young AA male teen. That will be an image they will take into the jury room. Also, the jury will be angry if the defense goes at him too hard. (JMO)

    Picture w/article.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I know I am asking a lot of silly questions, but I haven’t been able to be continuously aware of the case since I am in school. I was even living out of the country for a spell last year.

      • Nef05 says:

        Not at all, Sophia. I’m glad the others were able to answer your question. There’s a great wealth of knowledge here with the professor, C-S, and others and they have some really great answers. I certainly don’t mind if you ask me questions. It’s good for me to go back and refresh my memory with the opening statements coming up on Monday. Ask away. If I’m here, I’ll certainly answer to the best of my ability. 🙂

    • Dave says:

      Austin seemed very poised and articulate in the TV interview I saw. I think he’ll be a good witness.

      • Nef05 says:

        I agree. I tried to find it to link to my post, but I ended up having to settle for the article. I think he’ll do just fine.

  32. ay2z says:

    Let’s not forget the state has this and possibly more examples not released publicly that we don’t yet know about.

  33. Tee says:

    What seem odd to me is that witness 13 hear the crying for help but won’t come out but he comes out after hearing a gun shot. He’s the same one with the blood on the house. We’re missing a piece of the puzzle here with these two

  34. ay2z says:

    When could the Judge possibly hear this motion?

    Schedule we know so far, is opening statements begin at 9 am, Monday.

    We know that the fogen’s past prof must have his testimony immortalized, and if that does not happen today or tomorrow (not likely Judge Nelson will want change her mind about coming into court on the weekend), he must likely testify on Monday after opening statements, and that may not be practical time wise.

    Today seems the best option, if only because tomorrow should be for Mr. West to focus on his opening without distractions, especially important for him, unless he’s been playing chew wpitting the fool on purpose.

    That aside, the testimony will have to happen on Tuesday in court with a delay for ‘depo’ questions beforehand.

    Congratulations, Mr. West.

    You have succeeded in proving that your client lied.

    Can you pass the straight-face test when you argue to Judge Nelson that the defendant’s “spontaneous” statements to W13 are reliable and accurate?

    What is she going to think about your credibility and professionalism when the State shows her the walk-through video?

  35. Rachael says:

    Look y’all – you saw what I said upthread. LLMPapa said practically the same thing. It’s going to be okay. In fact, this will be even better now because when GZ is convicted, no one – not his lawyers, not the outhouse, no one can say it was because of whatever BS they are oozing out that day.

    I’ve said all I can say – and it will start sounding like a broken record, so I’m going to relax and get ready for Monday. That is going to be a big day.

    It is going to be okay, GZ WILL be convicted – by not only his actions, but his very own words.

    He will be living in a gated community for a long time. And no one will be able to say he didn’t get that address any way but legitimately.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I hope you are right Rachel.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I am with you Rachel. I think the experts should’ve been allowed to testify, but based on what I heard and saw in the Frye hearing, the fact that we are not going to have West, with his bloviating experts creating big clouds of smoke, going on and on and on, only to take a break to celebrate the 4th of July with his family, while the jury is sitting sequestered in a hotel losing income every day, may be a blessing in disguise.

  36. ay2z says:

    Prof asks West–

    By the way, was his statement to the person he called on his cell phone another “spontaneous” utterance?

    As long as you are spillin’ the beans, why don’t you tell us who he called and what he said.

    Yeah, isn’t that what those Florida lawyers like Don West and O’Mara would call layin’ a foundation?

    Looking forward to the answer to that question.


    • ay2z says:

      (blockquote didn’t work, sorry about that, first two sentences by Prof should be in quotations. trying again to get it right.

      By the way, was his statement to the person he called on his cell phone another “spontaneous” utterance?

      As long as you are spillin’ the beans, why don’t you tell us who he called and what he said.

  37. BLOOD-CURDLING screams.


    Screams END!

    Trayvon DEAD!

    It’s not rocket science.

    • Dave says:

      That sums it up!

    • ladystclaire says:

      @SG2, You are right as rain! there is no way that those screams are Fogen’s. after he told Serino, “that don’t even sound like me,” somebody told him that he had better say that it was him. this was done to make his self defense claim more believable and, this is why he is stealing this kid’s last words as his.

      It’s not enough that he took this kid’s life, he is also taking the last sound of his voice. smdh

    • Girlp says:

      Yep, and it sounds like a teen not an adult.

  38. In 1955 authorities claimed they couldn’t identify the body of Emmett Till.

    In 2013 authorities are denying experts testimony that its Trayvon screaming.

    • tonya B says:

      this is the 3rd expert that analyzed the 911 call………. this isn’t Mr Reich nor is it Mr owen

      • ay2z says:

        The reporter adds ‘muffled’ to the screams…. ‘muffled?”

        Tom Own did the report for the Orlando Sentinel, and Ed Primeau is on the witness list, Primeau Forensics.

        • tonya B says:

          I know I got pissed when I heard the reporter say that ………… is ed primeau on the witness list???? I thought that JN wasn’t gonna let the experts in

      • ay2z says:

        This is Primeau.

        Jury just has to listen and listen to someone who is an expert, Sybrina Fulton, expert as a ‘familial listener’.

        Defense can counter with sr zim and family.

        State can offer the most familial witness of all, someone who was there and whose voice he knows, fogen himself. And offer junior Z who said on camera, he knows it was his brother’s voice because he recognizes it, and he himself sounds just like his brother.

      • ay2z says:

        Tonya, yeah, no experts using the methodologies, good question– whether the experts can be used to offer ‘familial’ the best ID, people familiar with the speaker. That’s not arrived at by any methodology.

        A mother has heard her child scream, cry, utter various forms and varieties of vocalization over years. She is the best type of ‘witness’ to a recording.

        The state can offer simple bolean logic, no complicated algorythim formulations, no PhD’s in mathematics required. Screaming, gunshot…. quiet. Two present, one died, the other alive but quiet. Quiet- not even a panicked scream to anyone to call 911. Just a self-serving statement that West might argue as res gestae, for someone not to call 911 because as killer says “I already called them, they are on the way.”

        (and to the last idea that fogen said he already called 911, why not ask someone to call again, update the situation, get an ambulance and GIVE UPDATED ADDRESS to get whoever is on their way, there sooner to help his victim?).

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Our dogs are always disturbed by Trayvon’s screams if I play these recordings without headphones. They always look around as if they want to aid and assist.

      • Malisha says:

        And DOGS really know what they’re talking about; emotional information transfers to them immediately and effortlessly.

        That’s why it bothers me that on another constitutional law blog, a guy who calls himself “BarkinDog” is a Fogenite. I always kick him.

    • Girlp says:

      I did not haer any muffled screaming.

  39. colin black says:

    Picture of colin black

    Pistol shot rang out in the dark off night
    Enter witness 6 from the darknes an ziman begs him and all
    He sees the CHILD in a pool of blood
    Cries out “My God he killed HIM AFTER all”
    Here comes the story of the INOCCENT CHILD
    The BOY the authorities came to blame
    For something that he never done
    Put him in a COFFINl but one time he could-a been.
    Anything at all if only he hadn’t been so tall

    One bodie lying there does Jon see
    And another man named zimmerman moving around mysteriously
    “I didn’t do it” he says and he throws up his hands
    “I was saveing the neighbourhood I hope you understand
    I saw him running” he says and he stops
    “One of us had better call up the cops”
    And so Jon calls the cops
    And they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashing
    In the hot Florida night.

    Eight in the evening and they haul zimman in
    Take him not to the hospital and they bring him upstairs
    The barely wounded man looks up through his one lieing eye
    Says “Wha’d you bring him in here for ? I ain’t the guy !”
    Yes here comes the story of the Hurricane
    The man the authorities came to blame
    For something that he never done
    Put in a COFFIN but one time he could-a been
    Anything in the world.

    Two months later the ghettos are not in flame
    Trayvons Parents are all over America fighting for his name
    While zimerclan still in the robbery game
    And the cops are putting the screws to him looking for somebody to blame
    “Remember that murder that happened in a dog walk”
    “Remember you said you saw the mma beatdown?”
    “You think you’d like to play ball with the law ?”
    “Think it might-a been that fighter you saw running that night ?”
    “Don’t forget that you are white”.

    Arthur witt 6 said “I’m really not sure”
    Cops said “A boy like you could use a break

    Now you don’t wanta have to go back to jail be a nice fellow
    You’ll be doing society a favor
    That sonofabitch is brave and getting braver
    We want to put his ass on a pedistal
    We want to pin this medal for murder murder on him
    He is a sqeaky clean Merican “.

    Trayvon could take a man out with just one punch
    But he never did like to talk about it all that much
    It’s my hobby he’d say and I do it just to say
    When it’s over I’d just as soon go on my way
    Up to some paradise
    Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice
    And ride a horse along a trail
    But then they took him to the mourge
    Where they try to turn a Child into a lous
    Whom didn’t deserve to make it back to his house.

    All of Trayvons cards were marked in advance
    The trial was a pig-circus he never had a chance
    The judge made zimans witnesses drunkards like taffe all of them scum
    To the white folks who watched he was a vigilante bum
    And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger hater
    No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
    And though they could produce the gun
    The DNA said he was the one who did the deed
    And the all-FEMALE jury agreed.

    The crime was murder 2 ‘one’ guess who testified
    Ziman an his Father and they both baldly lied
    And the newspapers they all went along for the ride
    How can the life of such a man
    Be in the palm of some fool’s hand ?
    To see him obviously gain fame
    Couldn’t help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
    Where justice is a game.

    Now all the criminals in their coats and their ties
    Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise
    While zimann sits like Buddha in a ten-foot cell
    An GUILTY man in a living hell
    That’s the story of the child THEY DEFAMED
    But it won’t be over till they clear his name
    And give him back the RIGHOUS NAME he’s done
    Put him in a COFFIN but one time he could-a been
    The champion of the world.

    Please don’t sue me Bob

    I tried to copy it right ….

    • Sleuth says:

      Colin, omg! I don’t how I missed seeing this amazing tribute to Trayvon. So far, I have read it 3x. I am so moved by this, it brought tears to my eyes, and yes, some anger as well.

      This is such a wonderful piece of work. You, along with others here who have such great talents with poetry and prose should consider combining your efforts to create a book.

      Great job! Keep up the wonderful work! Thank you so much for sharing.

  40. nocamo33 says:

    Wow. So many of his defenders say there is no evidence. When did he lie, they are mere misstatements. Thank you for laying it out. I just hope when he is convicted that the non-racist defenders that were duped by the defense’s pr campaign understand precisely why he was convicted. I hope the accusation that the media and left are behind it is exposed for the grand “misstatement” that it is.

    • willisnewton says:

      To me the most obvious lie is regarding where he was while observing from his car. I think the state has plenty of evidence to show that he lied about all that from the get-go, and I think any jury who sees the defendant as not credible as to how he “wound up in a scuffle” is going to wonder if he is telling the truth about the “scuffle” itself.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I don’t see too many non-racist defenders of Zimmerman out there. Just saying.

    • Malisha says:

      They’re never going to accept anything he said as “lies” because they tell themselves the exact same lies. They say that their misconduct is all the fault of inferior people who are scheming against them. They say that their hostility is simply a reaction to their being victimized. All Fogen’s blah blah blah is the same as their blah blah blah.

      They are, in the end, no different from a gang of Nazis who say that all the problems — “problems” — that brought about WWII were the fault of the terrible victimizers who unjustifiably discriminated against the good Germans after WWI. No sense of accountability for anything.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Infuriating attitudes!

      • nocamo33 says:

        Maybe it’s a good thing that I cannot understand how “they” think? Maybe it’s time I pat myself in the back for never adopting that way of thinking. As an aside, I can relate to Zimmerman. I am Irish and Puerto Rican. I grew up straddling the fence, so to speak. Rejected by my own kind, because of my Caucasian appearance and dismissed by my white friends as a Spic. Zimmerman had the privileges and benefits of both races. At some point he was given a choice, renounce your heritage and accept the privileges of Whitedom. That is, if you look enough like “them” and act like “them” they will treat you like one of “them” and you will reap the rewards. The only problem is that it also includes renouncing your “minority” status and looking down on your own kind.

  41. bettykath says:

    Some thoughts about the decision on the voice recognition experts.

    This decision is probably the key one for the defense. If the experts testified, then the state could build a lot around the scream and there wouldn’t be much the defense could do to overcome it. I think they were right in putting so much effort into the Frye hearing. And whatever you think of West’s performance, he found the experts and the testimony that helped their case. I’m going to get shot on this blog for saying it, but “good job” Mr. West.

    The decision isn’t so important to the state b/c it has a lot of other evidence that proves the charges in the indictment. The 911 call is in and the jury can decide for itself.

    As I said a couple of days ago in anticipation, the judge made the correct decision imo. Good methodology with insufficient data provides questionable results. In this case, with experts, the questionable results would have been very prejudicial.

    • bettykath says:

      I have a habit of trying to give credit where it’s due. This reminds me of a high school football game I attended many years ago with my ex-. He attended one of the schools. I can’t remember if the couple with us attended that school or that of the opponents. Anyway….. I got in a lot of trouble with my ex- for cheering good plays regardless of who made them. These were hs kids fgs, everyone should have been cheering the good plays.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I am with you on this bettykath…. the giving credit where it is due part…. I don’t necessarily believe West did anything sooooperdoooper but in principle I agree that it is always a good idea to give credit where it is due

      • cielo62 says:

        Bettykath- I suppose this didn’t happen in Texas or you wouldn’t be here to tell us.


    • ks says:

      Wait a second, now you’re going too far! They may have won the motion in spite of West. : ) I think Skype may have had as much to do with it as West. Heh.

    • Dave says:

      West may have won the motion but he did so at the cost of annoying the hell out of the judge. I’d call it a Pyrhhic victory at best.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Insufficient data for what? That is where the State failed. The data was Insufficient to make a positive id out of a huge database with voices. The data was sufficient to exclude samples for being a possible match.
      In this case if one of the voices could’ve been excluded and the other is a possible match, that is relevant.

      • bettykath says:

        You’re right. The state didn’t provide any independent witnesses that said the methodology didn’t require the minimums that the defense witnesses said they did given the specific set of circumstances.

        A valid methodology can be used to take a poll, but if there aren’t enough responses, the poll is invalid. There are any number of examples where the method itself may be valid in some circumstances but with not enough data to work with, the result isn’t reliable. It may be right, but as much by accident as anything else.

    • Malisha says:

      Her job, however, was to determine whether or not the methodology, described as “good methodology” was good. Both sides said the methodology was OK so there was no question about the REAL issue at the Frye hearing. I can understand the idea that the good methodology with “insufficient data” will not yield a conclusion that can be relied upon very firmly, but that doesn’t make it a BAD methodology or one that has not been accepted within the discipline.

      NOW. Let’s say someone took x-rays of the torso with the bullet in it. Let’s say they couldn’t get enough of a plate to really show the picture properly. A Frye hearing on whether x-ray technology is acceptable for evidence in a murder trial should not be concerning itself with whether the plates were done right, whether they showed ENOUGH of the bullet to conclude anything about the COD, or any other issue. WAS THE TECHNOLOGY OK?

      End of inquiry. I think Judge Nelson erred.

      • ks says:

        amsterdam and Malisha are right. There was sufficient data to exclude one or the other and the good methodology issue (which nobody disputed), not subsequent findings, should have been the focus of the Fyre ruling.

        From a practical standpoint, I can see why JN ruled the way she did but, imo, it’s on shaky legal ground, if the prosecution wants to appeal. Especially considering that those same experts have used that methodology to testify in court cases before.

      • kllypyn says:

        there was plenty of data.We’ve all heard those screams.

  42. LLMPapa says:

    There will be no words heard by this jury with more obvious certainty than the dispatcher saying after the gunshot:

    “I don’t hear ANYTHING, do you hear anything?”

    • tinytruthseeker says:

      Thank you LLMPapa…. and it isn’t going to matter if the listening jury are all women or all one color or 10 different colors…. or if the judge allowed 25 different experts in to tell them what they are hearing…..or no experts…..there are somethings we are completely capable of managing on our own…. helpless white women that we are *sarcasm*

  43. LLMPapa says:

    Ask yourself only this….whose voice recognition expertise is more absolute, five mothers or three forensic examiners?

    Give me the momma’s e v e r y time.

    • ic2fools says:

      I’ll take ‘Mommas for 35 to Life’, Papa

    • Tee says:

      I’m with you, I know when my son cry while we are in chuck e cheese & as we know it don’t get know worst than chuck e cheese on a weekend.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        My Grandma (the only Mom I have ever had) is almost totally deaf…. when I cry she can FEEL it from another room…. I’m going with the Mom’s…. you can keep the experts or bring them… I don’t care

      • cielo62 says:

        Tee- LOL! Yep, mom’s ears are the sharpest!


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Tee – Nope, can’t think of anything worse than Chuck E Cheese on the weekend – oh the memories!

        I tend to turn my head and want to answer all cries of mama even though my kids are all grown up. Now I’m answering Trayvon’s cry.

    • Puck says:

      As I wrote here a few days ago,

      “If Sybrina takes the stand and they play the 911 call for her, and — still in her beautiful grace — a tear runs down her cheek as she says, “That’s Trayvon. That’s my baby,” each one of those mothers will know in her hearts whose cries of pain and terror and sadness those were. The women of the jury will be the true audio experts.”

  44. HereslookingatYou says:

    Is this jury really going to believe IT really pulled it’s gun out , moved it’s one hand out of the way in order not to shoot it’s self ,took aim all while letting out a death wail…while Trayvon who at this point sees the gun , just remains silent ? riiiiiiiiiiiiight

  45. Two sides to a story says:

    I’m OFF this page – beach day! Should have left hours ago. I’ve spent far too much time on my freelance work and commenting on this case – sometimes almost around the clock for several months.. .

    Give yourself some space and enjoy your Saturday, all! 😀

    • willisnewton says:

      good plan. I’m going to the swimmin’ hole too. Looking forward to monday morning opening by BDLR. Should be quite a presentation given all the state has at its disposal.

      • ay2z says:

        Bet Bernie brings up the concept that their conclusion involves no ‘magic’.

      • cielo62 says:

        Willis- just got back from Austin. Beautiful day with a rainbow in late afternoon and a super moon tonight and tomorrow. Justice is coming!


  46. Malisha says:

    Um … have we noticed that mention of the bloody head photos and the boo boo on the broken nose has gone really quiet now? Hmm. Want to bet that defense would like some of those things to come into evidence without much authentication? Maybe with a note from Fogen’s mother?

    “Dear Judge Nelson:

    “My son is a decent American who would never lie. So please allow the photographs to come into evidence without laying foundation or any of that malicious stuff, OK? I know you understand.

    “Sincerely, Americanly, Gladys.” “HEY WHO TURNED OFF THE LIGHTS?”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I thought they were already in evidence as discovery.

      • Malisha says:

        But have not been ADMITTED yet. Before being admitted they have to be put in properly with FOUNDATION. Putting in “evidence” without foundation is what the defense is trying to do. They were in discovery dumps — but still could be fakes or there could be other problems.

        I still do not believe that he has certain trails of blood down his head, then gets cleaned up by the EMT, then goes to the station house and gets photographed NOT looking like Frankenstein, and THEN gets photographed 4 hours later with the same SAME SAME drips of blood down the back of his head. SAME PATTERN? Unh-UNNNNNNNH. You can tell me anything, but don’t try to tell me THAT!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        OHHHHhhh. So they can’t be used at trial?

  47. Two sides to a story says:

    My Facebook biz page has just been unpublished. Very curious because I have not done what I’m being accused of (see below).

    I do feel that this may be an attack from Fogen supporters because I have been vocal on my personal page and elsewhere online in support of Trayvon Martin’s family (but not on my biz page). I sometimes post in my real name at news sites.

    I simply provide support to a particular professional community and don’t wish to out myself here, although some Fogen supporters have traced me and I’ve endured many highly personalized phishing and viral attacks that definitely aren’t the garden variety phishing e-mails sent out to millions of people.These have been very clever, but not quite good enough to fool me or anyone in my family.

    My posts to my FB biz page are all very innoccuous, especially considering there are many arty soft-porn sorts of sites on FB. I have an erotic writer friend who posts all sorts of racy things on her personal page that would be questionable under their policy. My biz page had nothing even close to this.

    It’s also possible that someone visiting the site was clicking around and accidentally triggered this response:

    Your page has been unpublished
    This means your Page is not visible on Facebook. Your Page was unpublished for violating Facebook’s Terms. Specifically, your Page was flagged for content containing nudity, pornography or sexual solicitation.

    If you think your Page was unpublished in error, you may appeal the decision. If your appeal is denied, your Page will be deleted permanently.
    You appealed this decision Today at 10:24am

    I would hate to have to change my biz name as I’ve used it for over a decade and have built a good reputation in the national and international professional community I’m part of. : /

    • Two sides to a story says:

      So on that note, to all the liars and manipulators in the world, take a dose of Crane’s medicine :

    • Judy75201 says:

      Fogen is a one-man machine of destruction. And it keeps on and on and on and on. It’s chin dropping. Sorry, and hope your page gets back up soon.

    • ZCBest says:

      I am so sorry this is happening to you. Praying.

    • Girlp says:

      So sorry that has happened to you. One of my FB friends is not allowed to friend people for a period of time for something they did not do, they vocally support Trayvon and his family and have been attacked verbally and has been hacked (the thing they did not do) so it’s happening….one thing Zim’s supporters need to understand attacking use will not win the trial for him.

      • KA says:

        My kids school address was published on a website and told I “put them in danger”.

        …then I got personal messages saying “how I got what I deserved”…

        I had to involve law enforcement.

        • cielo62 says:

          KA- damn! Those guys are truly mentally ill! On purpose I have very little personal info on my FB page. Not even where I live or work. Just my high school and where I grew up. Not much good if you want to blackmail me. I am so sorry this happened to you! Have the bullies been caught?


      • Two sides to a story says:

        No, it definitely will not. What troubles me is that some of them truly have hateful, horrible, and inappropriate pages and comments, yet they are willing to dump on people who don’t.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      sorry to hear of these troubles, two-sides. fight it, with all you’ve got.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks to all for your concern – I know that almost everyone here has probably gone through similar and even worse struggles with these clodhoppers. KA – that’s dreadful they would do something that would put your kids at risk.

        I took all the attacks in stride until yesterday and then nearly lost it. My page is still invisible to the world and the appeal still pending – I suppose FB won’t get to it until Monday. There really shouldn’t be a problem in restoring it since the charge is false. I can still see the page and even post to it, and there’s absolutely nothing there to offend anyone. I thought at first someone had hacked it, but that doesn’t seem to be the case, though I changed to an even better password just in case.

        I’m sure the person who did this knew that making a sexual solicitation claim would automatically suspend the page, unlike other complaints that yield only a warning.

        Hoodies up!


  48. PYorck says:

    I am really curious about the opening statements. Unfortunately I don’t know how detailed those usually are.

    Will the State provide substantially new information? We know that there is undisclosed evidence, but we don’t really know if it makes a difference.

    Will the defense go with the same narrative as in the beginning (basically the reenactment plus all other statements consistent with that) or will they make significant revisions?

  49. Malisha says:

    I just realized there can be an unintended consequence of the greatest magnitude if Judge Nelson allows in the “res gestae” comments: No husband will ever be safe again. There will be a drastic decrease in the number of restraining orders applied for in the domestic violence courts. All a woman would need to do was create a ruckus, kill her husband, and make sure her screams were heard “in flagrante” while she banged herself up and polished the guy off. Then when help arrived she could excitedly utter: “He was beating me he threatened to kill me he hurt me I was in fear for my life I was screaming for help but nobody helped me OWOO OWOO OWOO I’m so excited!”

    No prob, homie.

  50. Elizabeth says:

    JN explained to West about 600 times yesterday that she could not rule on the res gestae thing till monday because, among other things, she did not have a fax machine at home. So now all of a sudden she did rule on the allowance of the experts opinion?
    Wasn’t it emphasized throughout last week that you cannot trust what you hear from the media?
    I want to think this is not true.

  51. Malisha says:

    So I have a question: will BDLR ask for sanctions against West for having given a fraudulent alleged report to Wayman, and trying to perpetrate a fraud on the court?

  52. smokeegyrl says:

    Let me ask this question, it may be a dumb question but will Fogen’s phone records be introduced into court as evidence or was the Defense Team successful in getting them inadmissible?

    • raiikun says:

      Judge Lester, in an order ages ago, said something to the effect that no reason has been given for George’s records to even be considered evidence.

    • ks says:

      GZ’s phone records the night of the event are admissible evidence. IIRC, it was decided that they will remain under seal until trial. The only question is how they will be used during trial.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Why are the phone records under seal?

      • ks says:

        All parties agreed to it but I suspect it’s because they are very damaging to the defense’s case and could have been prejudicial if released earlier. They certainly aren’t exculpatory and the defense has been eerily quiet about them.

        Also, I think the prosecution has the phones records for all of GZ’s posse.

      • towerflower says:

        The phone records of Z, his texts, emails and a journal were all sealed in June 2012. The state and the defense agreed to it saying the release of them would be detrimental to Z.

        You know there must be something terrible in there for that to happen.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      They are presently sealed to b presented at trial.

    • willisnewton says:

      IIRC the phone records are not so much under seal as they are just not part of the discovery process by virtue of the defendant already possessing them. Why should the state have to “provide” them to the defense as discovery materials when they already have access to them?

      There may have been an order or mutual agreement about a “seal” but I’m not sure it was an official one from the court or not.

      I think perhaps early in the case the state made a lot off efforts to exclude the media from gaining access to materials, and that somehow this was one battle they won, either by skill or luck.

      Obviously the phone records are vital evidence. I fully expect we will hear a lot about who GZ called and texted and when at trial. The state mentioned some off-color text messages that GZ sent disparaging probably Al Sharpton – a “reverend” was the reference given in the hearing before the matter was moved past.

      GZ is seemingly on his phone in the “bloody head” photo. CLubhouse videos suggest he may have been driving around looking for TM after having received a “tip-off” of some sort. His car was moved somewhat mysteriously. Mark Osterman was in the area and may have acted improperly. Much to glean from GZ’s phone records. I’ve always felt the “missing minutes” seemed to correspond to a time period where GZ may have made another phone call as well, after ending his NEN call. We’re about to find out.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        ok, I do remember that. I remember that Osterman was at a bank across the way from the 7-11 when he spotted TM… it so happens the video at the bank caught him on the phone. That Osterman called Fogen… then Fogen called his sister… then all of sudden his how GZ appeared to all of sudden see TM.

      • aussie says:

        Osterman was at the bank at a time that would have allowed him to see Trayvon after he drove out. There is no evidence that he did actually see him: it is just a theory I proposed the day that bank video came out. He is not seen on the phone in it, he is just at the window taking out money and pulling faces.

        The theory goes on to say he visited GZ in person, so no need for a phone call, but this would place him at GZs place when Shellie (also there) got the call about the shooting. This fits a lot better with the timing of his arrival at the scene than the way he says it in his book.

    • Nef05 says:

      They were sealed by Judge Lester, from public release, during the bond hearing at which fogen’s bail was revoked. Though the reason the seal was requested was “too prejudicial to the defendant”, Judge Lester cited “privacy issues” of the other party, due to the high profile nature of the case, as his reason to grant the seal. They will be released at trial.

  53. Sophia33 says:

    Man I have a couple of trolls on me at HP. They keep changing their names. I seem to get under their skin a bit.

    • MichelleO says:

      Ha! Who cares?! It’s the truth that’s hurting them. Keep doing what you’re doing. If the shoe were on the other foot, and this was your child we were talking about, you would be happy to know that there are so many soldiers for justice rooting for you.

      • Sophia33 says:

        And I won’t stop fighting for justice. I just find it funny that I have gotten to them so. LOL!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        When you can’t go on any longer,
        Take the hand, hand of your brother,
        Every victory brings another,
        Carry it on, carry it on.

        from the song “Carry It On”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This trial needs to send a STRONG message to all of the U.S.:

        NEVER again should an gun-toting individual chase an innocent person just because that pursuer happened to think that person was suspicious.

        We have laws about that. It is for the police to come and investigate.

        Instead, gz acted as judge and jury while carrying a gun*.

        *gz ALWAYS carried a gun when he walked around the RTL and reported individuals to NEN. He said that the only time he did not carry his gun was at work.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Never again!

        Never again!

        Never again!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I pray with you, Sybrina and Tracy!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Sabrina and Tracy,

        Lean on me when you’re not strong and
        I’ll be your friend
        I’ll help you carry on

        If there is a load you have to bear
        That you can’t carry
        I’m right up the road, I’ll share your load
        if you just call me

        Just call me when you need a friend
        Just call me when you need a friend…

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • Trained Observer says:

      Good for you.

    • racerrodig says:

      Welcome to the club. I’ve had a few myself. I just tell ’em Game On.

  54. MichelleO says:

    I have no doubt that Fogen is going to prison. I am unmoved at this point by any viewpoint contrary to this. He had a very good year after hunting down and murdering a kid. People with viewpoints similar to his, gave him a king’s ransom. He was able to eat and live very well at the expense of other racists like himself. His people (the racist) awarded him and gave him the best year of his life.

    And now, after fooling himself and being fooled by his kid killing worshippers, he is going to get the biggest surprise of his life: Free accommodations among people of his own ilk–extreme haters and killers. They will throw him a very big welcome party that I hope, somehow, will make it onto the Internet.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      My AA friends seem to think Fogen’s prison welcome will be quite . . . warm.

      • MichelleO says:

        I don’t know what friends you are talking about. But if you are talking about me, you have totally misunderstood that last statement.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Agree, MichelleO — Despite false claims of living under death threats and other marlarky, Fogen’s taped jailhouse calls reveal how for the first time ever, he Mitty-morphed into the hero he always aspired to be. Dang that felt good.

        His name in the papers, on network TV, cable shows too. Fan letters and all that money rolling in …

        Soon this financial deadbeat sat on his jailhouse cot, dictating how to move previously unheard of assets around from Peter-Pan (heh-heh, iwasn’t that clever) to other accounts as if he were a combination Mark Zuckerberg/Mark Cuban.

        Hot damn. Life was gonna be real good after aggravation of a few nights in county jail blew over. Daddy and Wolfie would take care of things, and if not, … well, he had a whole legion of supporters, more and more out there, important people,too, who’d back him to the hilt. Stand Your Ground, by george and by cracky, that’s what it was, and who could prove different?

        But oops, nasty bits of evidence kept surfacing. Telephony GPS, a long distance ear witness …

        Even so, things were going pretty well until he wasn’t able to get into see Angela Corey, to personally give her the old smootheroo. WTF … it always worked on Shellie.

        Then despite stunning success of the Sean Hannity interview (everybody agrees it was the gift that keeps on giving) , Barbara Walters failed to play ball on a scheduled follow-up chat by refusing to kick in a month at a fancy resort with meals, massages, etc.

        Well screw Walters. It was still possible to live high on the hog under a curfew in Seminole County as proven by his multiple chins and expanding waistline. His lawyers would get him a string of continuances until it would all go away after they finally got ahold of the right kind of judge. If this new broad Nelson didn’t work out better than Lester and the other one, they’d just shop for another.

        Yes, as for feeling like a kingpin and being a media headliner, it was a dang good year.

        But June 10th came, six jurors got picked, and now, come Monday, the State plans to take deadly aim with opening arguments.

        For Fogen, those good days are gone.

      • Two sides to a story says:


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Michelle, I’m talking about personal friends. I said nothing about you.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Two sides, no doubt about it on the warm welcome awaiting. Most Florida state prisons are not air-conditioned. (I don’t understand the response below from MichelleO.)

      • Trained Observer says:

        Meant response above.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think she took offense and thought I was interpreting her message the same way as what my friends said. I’d also like to clarify my message a bit. IN no way, shape or form did my AA friends wish this “warm reception” in prison upon Fogen. They simply mentioned the reality of prison life and that inmates tend to not like child killers or molestors much. And they didn’t feel that the warm reception would necessarily be dispensed by an AA either. Again, just considering the reality of prison life.

        And I see now that Michelle was alluding to a big racist party that Fogen might have had if not arrested or if not convicted. However, a lot of that stuff unfortunately happens within the boundaries of free speech or we wouldn’t have a Sundance Cracker and minions howling over there in their swamp.

        Sometimes people’s posts spur unrelated thoughts and I should have written more to clarify my post. No offense toward anyone was intended – except to Sundance Cracker and his treestump, of course. And even they can choose transformation!

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides~ Hmm… maybe I’m just naive or read for content, but I never got that this “welcome” was “wished” in any way by anyone. It’s just a reality. Gz’s welcome will be a scary thing. As a convicted child killer, he will probably be put in solitary protective confinement. And THAT is a heinous punishment all its own.

    • Dave says:

      MichelleO, I think Two Sides was agreeing with you, expressing the same sentiment with a deliberate understatement.

    • William Walton says:

      MichelleO, and his keepers will definitly reduce the size of his feeding trough!

    • Operacarla says:

      I want to hear fogen scream at his welcome party…thus putting to rest any doubts about who is screaming on the 911 call. Hoodies up!

    • Christopher Charles says:


  55. Malisha says:

    I wonder why the prosecution didn’t bring in Ed Primeau.

    He didn’t use any non-standard techniques.

    Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqnJNwcvaM0

  56. Ty Flair says:

    The state can’t bring in the voice expert during trail. I just heard it on HLN. What the hell is going on.

    • Malisha says:

      Judge Nelson ruled out Owen and Reich, by NAME. I think that means Primeau can testify! WOW — hey wait a minute! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! I might have fooled my DAMN self this time (fool me once, shame on ME!)…

  57. 2dogsonly says:

    JN made the right call. Nakotshami, FBI guy, was going to be hard to argue with. But their experts never said it was GZ screaming and for over a year MOM has been crowing about that. She only ruled out Owen and Reich…one not a PHd and one who heard things no one else did.

    Can state call the MOM’s experts, at least FBI and French? French said at end of interview voice pitch does change with age and he hadn’t heard TM’s voice but there is that video with TM’s voice ( bike) and he obviously still has teen voice, not a man’s voice.

    She allowed testimony of George Pleasance who was GZ’s professor in criminal law specifically teaching SYG. This is important because in Hannity interview our boy wonder specifically denies twice knowing anything about this law.

    • ” This is important because in Hannity interview our boy wonder specifically denies twice knowing anything about this law.”

      One has to remember fogen finished 315 out of 317 graduating high school….He failed to graduate JC even tho he had a graduation party….and lied to Serino that he had an AA in CJ….

      MOM could use ADD & ADHD as excuses for his client being an uneducated moron……….Just sayin

    • MichelleO says:


    • ic2fools says:


      Excellent question, Can state call the MOM’s experts, at least FBI and French? I don’t think that State can, Nakotshami and French are expert witnesses. Judge Nelson wrote expert witnesses can not testify. However, if the State moves for a Dauber Hearing they could. John Guy said in Fridays’ hearing that Daubert Hearing would have been more appropriate. I’m not sure if that is a move the State will need to take at this point.

      States evidence is strong enough to move forward. The State has taken steps to counter defense from keeping their client off the stand. Putting Fogen on the stand then they will be able to present SPD Serino interview where Fogen said ‘that doesn’t sound like me’ as a matter of fact when Serino gets on the stand he will testify to that fact.

      Thank you for explaining who George Pleasance is. That means he will testify that Fogen took his course and SYG material was taught by him in the course taken by Fogen.

      HA! Interesting how will O’mara cross George Pleasance? Will O’mara ask if Fogen passed the course? Understanding about SYG? Don’t matter if he didn’t the SYG material was still covered in the class. So he knew of it, also isn’t it a fact the booklet comes with material given when a person gets’their CCW permit?

  58. crazy1946 says:

    Before many of you allow emotion to take control of your thought process, perhaps you need to step outside of your body for just a moment and consider what the defense has actually “won”? To begin with, if the “alleged experts” had been allowed to give there testimony in the court room, it would have lengthen the time of the trial by at least one week at the minimum, they jury not being able to live what anyone could suggest a normal life would not be to happy to have to listen to a bunch of hocus pocus theory that could be easily disputed. This also denies the defense the opportunity to provide a yet to commit expert to testify that the Fogidiot was the one screaming in terror. This takes one more excuse for the defense to not put the Fogidiot on the stand, which would actually make the conviction much harder than many would actually suspect. I stated some time ago (not very popular to do so) that there was a pretty good chance that the Fogidiot would not be convicted and a hung jury was quite possible, the question then would be, will the state quietly wait the required time and allow the case to simply go away? I only take solace in the fact that regardless of a conviction of the Fogidiot, karma will provide a solution in the long run. The Fogidiot will never (if not convicted) be able to enjoy life, he will be too busy looking over his shoulder for the boogie man that is out to get him, he will never be able to hold down real employment, nor will he be able to live a peaceful life. His present supporters will drop him like a bag of burning dog poop as soon as the opportunity arises! Face it folks, even if Fogidiot wins, he loses….

    • Two sides to a story says:


      A long, long time ago, before OM did all the awful things he’s done in Fogen’s defense, back when a lot of people on both sides respected him, he said in one of his TV interviews that people should expect to see lots of ups and downs in this case. That both sides would win things and lose things and that it would be hard to predict the outcome of the case.

  59. smokeegyrl says:

    What I hope this is NOT… is the State of Florida was forced to make an arrest of Fogen to quell what could of been a racial tension turning into a race war. I hope to God all the decisions of this court by JN is in due process of the Law in Justice being served in a dutiful manner and not for this Judge to get this matter out of her court in a hurry sort of speak. I don’t like the way the way it is going. I mean, I have my doubts… I mean I can nod my head to what some of you are saying… okay… that makes sense and so does that… but I still have that gut feeling in my stomach saying this isn’t right. Something is amiss here. I can’t quite put my finger on it… but it’s that 2nd radar I have… sorry for the elipses but it is my train of thought gone wild.

    • Rachael says:

      I hope so too.

    • two sides to a story says:

      Fogen did evil and then invoked God’s Plan – have faith that it’s still working!

      • two sides to a story says:

        Deva Premal – Mantras for Perilous Times

      • Malisha says:

        Well, as a person who is not religious, I would much rather have faith in our justice system than have faith in a deity.

      • Malisha says:

        And in saying that, I invoke the last words (whatever they were) of Lot’s Wife.

        • racerrodig says:

          “And in saying that, I invoke the last words (whatever they were) of Lot’s Wife.”

          I’m pretty sure they were “Oh….shit”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        As a Buddhist practitioner, I don’t believe in a creator God or “God’s Plan” and the deities of the Buddhist system are used in meditation practices to identity with energetically and are not the same as worshipping or supplicating to them.

        So when I mention “God’s Plan” I’m referring to karmic law – Fogen has invoked “God’s Plan” with his own words and it – karmic law – IS in motion.

        Karma may or may not use man’s law as part of the pushback. If not, there will be other karmic repercussions that Fogen will have to deal with . . .such as the man who knifed to death a thief in Miami carrying a sack of radios after the man swung the sack of radios at him. This guy, whose name I don’t recall, was let off for murder in an SYG hearing, and then was caught in the crossfire of a gang shooting in Miami that he was not a part of . . . poetic karmic justice.

        Karma is immutable and any erroneous actions and words that Fogen has perpertrated will come back to haunt him.

        • racerrodig says:

          Can I add that no matter what religion you believe in (or don’t) it’s never a good idea to use God as an alibi…….never.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- nope! No deity I have ever read about likes to be invoked for murder (unless its the Christian Satan, but he isn’t a god)

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            That would mean we agree…….Do not use any God as an alibi….he does not appreciate that…..and in fact, may take extra care to see Justice for the victim is assured.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- YEP!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            It sure sucks to be Fogen about now, ya know, there being less than 10 hours now.

            I wonder how many sleeping pills he took ??

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- suicide by choice or accident?

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            “Racer- suicide by choice or accident?”

            He fails at everything…..thank God for stomach pumps.

    • type1juve says:

      I too have the feeling that something is not right here. The fact that O’Mara has been allowed to smear a dead child unchecked for over a year bothers me. I knew something was up with JN when jury selection went the way it did. I’m upset right now and I hope this is not an indication of where this case is going.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        There is unrest and I see it on Facebook. I see it on twitter. It bothers me. You know what the saying is… It gets quiet before the storm.

      • towerflower says:

        The best thing any judge assigned to this case could have done was to issue a gag order when it became evident it was going to be a high profile case. Only in recent years have things gone national with shows like Nancy Grace when they pick a crime to highlight. Then we have the internet, FB and Twitter. I wish there had been one on all parties, families included.

  60. Leisa says:

    Mom is desperate to get the things on Trayvon’s cell phone admitted and that is why he wanted this addressed before trial started.

    • boyd says:

      But we can’t have experts putting their reputation, careers on line with an opinion,

      but photos A-okay to throw that out there for you to decide

  61. Leisa says:

    Something else to think about. JN cannot relax rules of evidence for defense as sanction against state since Bdlr still has a witness to present and it has not been determined by the Court that he is guilty of discovery violations therefore, no relaxation for Mom.

    • Nef05 says:

      I know O’Mara asked for it, but I wonder if JN can even do that. The rules of evidence are rules of evidence for a reason, and I would think that allowing them to be circumvented by the defense, would be giving the prosecution grounds for appeal.

      Aside from that it, seems like a bad precedent. Wouldn’t that just open the door for corrupt judges to be bought off, if they could find a way to “relax” the rules so the defendants could enter inadmissible evidence of their “innocence”? That’s a slippery slope, for real.

      Can’t you just see some rich guy/woman, killing their inconvenient spouse, asking for a bench trial, getting the rules “relaxed” a little bit; and Presto – said spouse rides off into the sunset with the new mistress/boy toy. No assets split, no alimony, no settlement, no child support, nothing.

      Don’t mind me – I just read about the 4th or 5th judge in my area, removed from the bench or indicted, within the past year. Everything from an indictment on bank fraud, to a sex scandal, with a litigant/complaining witness before the court, no less. *sigh*

      • ic2fools says:

        Nef05, remember Judge Nelson said to O’mara ‘Get to the point’ What is it you want’

        O’mara again said, ‘we still don’t have everything from the State’.

        There is nothing else for the State to give O’mara. The only thing the State can give O’mara is a written step by step guide on how they intend to present case evidence against fogen.

        There is no way anyone can tell me any different that is what O’mara is hinting at.

        O’mara knows he can’t outright ask, he is a emotional creature hoping for an emotional response to his dirty tricks to get what he wants.

      • Nef05 says:

        Well, they’re certainly getting an emotional response from me. I want to slap them both silly. Fortunately, JN has a lot more patience and determination not to give it to them, than I would.

  62. boyd says:

    Now that the Judge ruled against the experts it seems to me it’s open season on Teenagers in Florida. I’m almost giving up! They’re crazy down there! They let these lawyers lie lie lie and those Jurors will find some excuse to allow this murder to go unpunished. I have 0 faith in Florida residents. I hope the oceans swamped that place, Enough of this nonsense, Caylee Anthony and now this.

    I can foresee HOA/neighborhood watches stocked with CCW holders now patrolling and stopping people.

    I got to hear a little of Mark Geragos on Al Sharpton MSNBC show, he made a good point, in any other state he wold have been arrested on the spot, but not in Florida. That in itself is a bad sign he could get off.

    They should lower the age limit on CCW for the kiddies to carry weapons for self-defense. At least make it fair.

    I’ll be boycotting Florida

    • Malisha says:

      Frankly, if Fogen gets off, NOBODY will be safe in Florida.

      NOT just no African American teen-agers. NOBODY.

      • two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think Fogen will get off – but if he doesn’t, people won’t be safe from rogue shooters in FL or many other states with similar SYG laws – about 25 so far.

        • racerrodig says:

          The last think any state needs is the precedent of “The State of Fl vs Fogen” It’s open season on civilians ya’ll !!

      • KA says:

        I think GZ’s actions that evening will be looked at as foolhardy and irresponsible to most women (and men) at a minimum and he will get a Manslaughter charge in the least. I do not think there will be a “getting off” verdict.

    • Rachael says:

      I’m telling you – and I belive this with all my heart – we do not need experts here. They would only cloud the issue, especially with West at the helm.

      • boyd says:

        you need everything, they are dense down there.

      • Dave says:

        Sorry Boyd, but I don’t believe that either Owen or Reich would convince the jury of anything, especally after the defense experts have muddied the waters with their standards, algorithms and variously colored waves.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think so too. That Frye hearing was terrible. I know that the work done by Reich and Owen has validity in this particular case, but it took me quite a bit of effort to piece that together. They weren’t very effective as witnesses.
        Tip to the prosecution, next time a defense team wants to have a Frye hearing, do not agree to skyping in all kinds of experts.

        If a member of the jury believes it was Trayvon who was screaming, that juror doesn’t need the experts wasting a week of their life. If a juror believes it is possible that the screamer was GZ, the expert testimony will not be convincing and all that would be accomplished is an additional week of sequestration for the juror.

        If the juror just doesn’t know, the bloviating experts screaming ” gaussian mixed model” won’t really help them either.

      • William Walton says:

        Rachael, after thinking about it, I agree. Let these ladies hear the tape and draw their own conclusions. Just as people here became confused as to what West was talking about, the experts whould have confused the jurors even more.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That’s not entirely so, what Mark Geragos said about arrest on the spot in many states. It’s common for an investigation to take weeks before criminal charges are filed against a shooter who claims self-defense. And Fogen was detained for questioning, though the investigation failed to do many things, like blood tests and examination of his vehicle.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Maybe I am hearing what I want, but I think that, despite the SD claim, they had enough to arrest him and charge him.

      • Malisha says:

        That excuse of “investigations can take weeks” doesn’t work when you factor in:

        1. Police ON THE SCENE telling witnesses not to say what they saw, but to say other things instead;

        2. Police not taking statements from witnesses who call IN to say they have information;

        3. Police giving out as “public information” their preliminary and unfounded theories about it being “self-defense” and adding that they had no evidence to suggest that it was NOT self-defense when ALL their evidence suggested that it was NOT;

        4. A homicide detective (Serino) identifying without any doubt, to a WITNESS, the source of a scream on tape that was less than three seconds and therefore was not even able to be identified by acoustic forensic scientists after detailed work; or

        5. Failure to secure the crime scene in accordance with standard police operating procedures.

        Does not play.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Don’t give up. Pls. don’t. This is the nature of the game (legal battles): bruising others and getting bruised in the process, dishing out blows to others and taking in blows in the process. This is the time to hit even harder, not give up. We took in a heavy blow today, but we have enough in our arsenal to vanquish the enemy.

      • ic2fools says:

        Please listen to Searching Mind post, please ya’ll don’t give up!

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly……never give up and never back down….this may be closer to the end than we think.

          • ic2fools says:


            Much closer. I would not be surprised that one of Fogen close circle (i.e. shellie, oysterboi, taaffe) is now States witnesses against him.
            Ya notice Fogen couple great divide last week. hmmmm? Right after taaffe showed at court,, him and shellie left awful quickly.together!

            I can see Fogen breaking down (like friday), pleading Omar to beg Bernie for a plea. Saving him from the trial. Bet his Fogen butt was crying like a baby back b… this weekend.

            Remember when he was in jail deputies said he cried all night. He probably cried all Thursday night wasn’t fit to be seen public on Friday.

            Well good night buddy thanks for reading mi thoughts and opinion, ‘catch ya later!

          • racerrodig says:

            You know where I stand….take care, sleep well and “To the Hunt!!”

          • ic2fools says:

            Will do, sure do and “To the Hunt!”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        X3. I felt really sick at first, but it’s better to not have weak experts in trial. The call itself remains and the jury’s common sense will prevail.

      • racerrodig says:

        “We took in a heavy blow today” It’s not that bad a blow in all reality. Disappointing….yep, but I believe Bernie can get RZ sr to screw up by saying Fogen screamed just like that as a teenager….

        Hey Robbie sr……ever hear him scream as an adult ?? Doubt it !!

    • Girlp says:

      Boyd after reading the commetd and thinking about the days of testimony the cross examinations and defense experts would most likley confuse the jury and the jury would disregard the testimony. There is plenty of evidence against zimmerman. I do disagree with some that DeeDee is no longer a good wittness as she was attempting not to hurt Ms. Fulton’s feelings.

      • Dave says:

        I have no doubt that DeeDee will be a very good witness. I don’t think that the jury will have any problem with her excuse for missing the wake or funeral. They are all women of a certain age. They’ve seen it. They’ve done it.

      • DruDo says:

        Girlp, I agree Dee-Dee perhaps simply didn’t want to hurt Ms. Fulton’s feelings. The young son of my sister’s neighbor passed away and my sis felt as if she just couldn’t cope with going to this child’s funeral, so made an excuse of illness. Not saying she was right or wrong, just that she felt she wanted to remember him playing and happy.

    • towerflower says:

      Wow, boyd wants me and my family swamped by the ocean. Seriously, not every CCW person supports Z, I don’t. Not every neighborhood watch with a CCW is patrolling and stopping people….there has been no other case of someone even complaining of being stopped.

      I’m sure we can find some nut case in every state. Should I boycott Arizona because of Arias? NY because of 911? GA because of the ATL child murders of years past? Yes, we have had a couple of high profile cases but we do get it right at times…..we got Bundy when others could not.

      I’m sorry but I’m a life-long resident of Florida and there is still good done here.

      • Yorazigo says:

        Agree towerflower! I’m a transplant from MA, and certainly don’t want to be “flooded away”! Many good people live here and good things do happen here.

  63. Nef05 says:

    As much as I don’t like this ruling, I can’t find a flaw in her reasoning or logic. Perhaps someone more versed in law can see one, but as a close reading layperson, I cannot.

    That being said, while some feel the ruling is very damaging to the prosecution, I respectfully disagree. It closes the door, on the defense for an appeal on this issue, which we know they would have attempted, and perhaps won (based on JN’s reasoning). It may have even resulting in an emergency stay(?) if the defense told the DCA their case is based on fogen screaming, while it was being heard, giving the defense a de facto continuance. So there’s that.

    But, mostly because I don’t believe this jury will hang based on the screams. While some jurors “may” side with fogen screaming, there is so much more the prosecution has to offer that I believe can’t be disputed, and I just don’t believe five mothers are just going to give a free pass to a “creepy” stranger danger following a kid at night.

    I still feel like they will compromise. The jurors who want to convict, will go down to manslaughter, and the jurors who want to acquit will go up to manslaughter, in a compromise – so everyone gets heard and everyone gets something for their “side”. Which I won’t quibble about since the Florida gun law, that Corey included in her charging information will mandate the same sentence as murder two. YES, I would like for the cold-blooded, sociopathic killing of a young black male teen to be called MURDER in this court and throughout our country. But, if it takes manslaughter to get this evil off of our streets for some decades and gives the Martin/Fulton family some justice and closure – I’m all for it.

    Lock his azz up!

    • two sides to a story says:

      Though a plea deal or reduction in charges would be regrettable, I find a compromise acceptable. It lands Fogen where he should be and is better than a hung jury or an acquittal.

      I trust in God’s Plan, however quirky it may be. Karma is immutable, always fair (we know not the sum of an individuals many lifetimes), and always inescapable.

      • Malisha says:

        TS, the reason I would find a plea deal unacceptable is that the evidence would NEVER come out about what really happened down there. It is more important for us to find out WHAT DID HAPPEN than it is for Fogen to be punished. He’s just a racist a55hole slob punk — they’re a dime a dozen. But we should be allowed to SEE and READ the real evidence and the feds should then be able to show us what the SPD and Wolfinger and others actually DID to try to destroy democracy, so they could promote and preserve a murderer’s privilege of supremacist “neighborhood cleansing.”

        Are we to be no better than people who encourage “easy target elimination exercises” in Serbia, Darfur, Rwanda, Indonesia…

        Fogen determined that Trayvon Martin was an easy target and he chose to eliminate him. If this is excused I believe we will find ourselves with the country we may actually deserve.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sadly, I think we already have the country that many idiots like Fogen and the minions who support him want, and sadly, I don’t think enough people are pushing back quite yet to fix the situation.

        We can’t even get the masses and legislators to agree on stronger (but MINOR) gun control options that are basic common sense after several school shooting incidents in the last decade!

        I think many more people will have to die tragically before America gets over its obsession with guns and frontier-style self-defense rights.

        • And in how many of these gun crimes did the perpetrator legally possess the firearm?

          Back to the “If guns are outlawed…only outlaws will have guns”

          32,000 traffic deaths in 2011…..31%…(10,000) involved alcohol……So even though we have laws against drunk driving….10K people avg. die a year due to drunk drivers breaking the law……Prohibition didn’t work…neither will more gun control…

          Another thing to check….How many murders….with any type of weapon, also involved alcohol?

          4% of all deaths worldwide involve alcohol annually…..

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        A. Corey doesn’t offer plea deals…. and she has stated there WILL BE NO PLEA DEAL in THIS case…. I am not going to go hunting for trouble that has already been addressed and debunked

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Lots of suicides involve alcohol and firearms.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Malisha, I totally agree that the root of all the corruption in this case should be exposed, but I don’t think it’s any more likely to happen with an M2 conviction. I could be very wrong, but the way this stuff usually comes down is exactly how it happened – shady stuff happens, people yell, police officials and prosecutors and politicians are forced to step down or step down voluntarily, and a curtain of silence is drawn over the entire affair as it’s treated like a private workplace issue.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      What is unclear to me in this ruling, does it only cover the screams in the 911 tape. Reich is working on the background noises in the nen call. It appears to me Nelson excluded their testimony based on the short sample and the question whether a screaming voice can be compared to a speaking voice.

      I think here is where Nelson’s logic failed. Based on this ruling, how can she keep Reich of the stand for other analysis done by Reich, using the exact same methodology. She should never ave allowed the Frye hearing to degenerate into a duelling experts side show.

      • ks says:

        Very good question. If it’s not spelled out, the prosecution should look to clarify the ruling.

      • willisnewton says:

        I’m guessing if the prosecution wants to name more experts or the same ones to speak on a different issue, namely what is heard in the NEN call regarding the car moving or not, then they can do so and we’ll get another Frye hearing.

  64. Girlp says:

    I thought jn said Monday.

  65. willisnewton says:

    I’m not surprised at the Frye hearing’s ruling by judge Nelson. Nor am I worried.

    I think she ruled in part racist she doesn’t want this case, her case, overturned on appeal.

    At trial there will be an emotional high point when Trayvon’s mother testifies she hears her son’s voice screaming for help before a shot cuts him off.

    Now imagine: who will refute her? Will it be GZs father or his mother and what questions will they face upon cross examination? money laundering questions? Questions about the credibility of their son? Questions about when they believe the smothering and head pounding is taking place? Or will it be simpler lien this?

    BDLR ” do you think that’s your son calling for help and is the national basketball association a racist institution?” “No please, elaborate. “.

    • willisnewton says:

      Strange typo – racist = because k

    • ks says:

      Bingo! Also, because of their crazy antics GZ’s family will be of very limited use, if any at all. They can’t open the character door and, as you indicated, will be killed on cross.

    • two sides to a story says:

      The Fogen family certainly destroyed their credibility about not being racist with Z Sr’s book. However,whether the jury knows about it is in question and also, knowledge of it doesn’t fit into the parameters of the evidence in the case, so . . . : /

      • ks says:

        True but the problem with them destroying their credibility in general is that it leaves them of very little use to the defense. The scope of what they can testify about without being hammered is very thin.

      • Malisha says:

        The book can be used to impeach Senior.

        “Is this a book you wrote about the case?”
        “Did you write this book voluntarily?”
        “Did you independently form the opinion that the NBA is racist?”
        “Did you also independenty form the opinion that the scream on this 911 tape is from your son?”
        “Did he sound like that when he was a teen-ager?”
        “What kinds of events would make him utter those shrieks when he was a teen-ager?”
        “Did those events happen often?”
        “Did those events cause him to lose the ability to focus on questions asked of him, or cause him to emit spontaneous excited utterances?”

        Please describe three of those events when your son screamed like that as a teen-ager.

      • DruDo says:

        Seems to me RZ, Sr. pretty much sealed the deal when he said fogen screamed like that when he was a teenager, therefore, proving the screams the night his lying son killed Trayvon WERE those of a teenage boy, not an adult man. Why this hasn’t occurred to me before is scary. My son just said my light bulb was apparently on 15 watt, then suddenly went to 150 and asked if I needed an aspirin. Smart-aleck.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Willis, I understand your point very well. Nonetheless, I am dismayed by the ruling. At least from a PR point of view, this is a setback. If the death shriek is a major factor in the equation and if jurors will have to rely on the relatives of the defendant and the victim to figure out who was uttering death shriek, that will be a major problem (IMO). Conflicting opinions of the jurors will mean at best hung jury or at worst acquittal. This case has thought me that in “my world” (where I am one of the few but sizable rebels)most White mothers do not (easily) identify with Ms. Fulton (and her pain) as they would other White mothers (in a racially charged case like this one). PJ B86 is a perfect example of what I mean. I have hoped that science will make up for that deficit and void the power of their prejudice. I very much hope that “my world” is a tiny, dying minority and the jurors will feel as you think they would.

      That said, when Prosecutors charged GZ with 2nd degree murder Reich and Owen were unbeknown to them. This case as you and others have pointed out, was built on Reich and Owen. The totality of the evidence will force one and only reasonable conclusion that it was Trayvon uttering death shriek on the 911-tape. In a battle between Good and Evil, evil will now and then “shine”. But the Good will ultimately triumph. So, today Evil “shines”. But, ultimately, the Good shall reign. No doubt about that.

      • SearchingMind says:

        typo: This case as you and others have pointed out was NOT built on Reich and Owen …. (was meant)

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Did you have a chance to read the order? Nelson gets very specific about the application of the methodology. She points to the shortness of the sample and the difference between screaming voices vs speaking voices.
        Reich however is working on other areas of the recordings. Most specifically the background noises in the nen call.

        Does this order prohibit Reich to testify about those areas?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Forget my question. I should’ve done a better job reading the order.

  66. SearchingMind says:

    Tribute to Professor and LLMPapa

    It has become apparent why (1) GZ was absent during the trial on 21st June 2013, (2) West literarily ambushed Judge Nelson and Bernie with his “Res gestate Motion” and attempted desperately to shove it down their throats and (3) the “Res gestate Motion” is dead on arrival:

    First: GZ’s account of what he himself did and uttered immediately after the murder differ from what diverse witnessES have testified GZ did and said.

    Second: the actions and utterances of GZ – as relayed by GZ himself, and the actions and utterances of GZ – as relayed by witnesses, are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be correct at the same time.

    Third: given the fatal discrepancy between GZ’s account(s) on the one hand, and witnesses’ accounts on the other hand, none of the utterances can be chosen as res gestae – in favor of the defendant. In such a scenario, it might even become incumbent on GZ to take the stand yet again to either “correct” his former statements to align with those of witnesses, if possible. That will expose him to an onslaught from BDLR. O’Mara and West would have none of that. So, GZ stayed home;

    Fourth: spontaneity of the utterances is absent. The utterance(s) was/were prompted by questions from witnesses and are as such the results of deliberative thought-process. There is nothing “spontaneous” about them.

    Fifth: the utterance were – on the face of it – not made contemporaneously. The utterances were not made while the murder was ongoing but rather after GZ has had the time to holster back his gun, put his clothing back in order, make a phone call(s),collect his thoughts together, etc.;

    It thus became necessary to ambush and hoodwink Judge Nelson and BDLR with the “Res gestate Motion” and hassle them into making quick, hasty decisions – (without deliberation);

    • ks says:

      Great post. I know there’s some excitement going on with JN’s ruling but I think it’s hard to understate how big a catch LLMPapa and the Prof. made here. West’s Motion IMPEACHES his client’s previous statement!

      It’s a huge indication that a mere day or so before opening statements that the defense is still scrambling and desperate.

    • Leisa says:

      His only exited utterance was the “I fucked up”.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think he actually said “I fucked up.” I think Selma described seeing him walking away from the body while raising his hands to his head, thus making a gesture that SHE associated with the “universal gesture” meaning “I fucked up.”

      • Lynn says:

        I believe the hands to the head/forehead fucked up or look of worry was him whacking the back of his head with the Keltec-9. He was holding the barrel and tried to hit himself with the butt, but gun turned sideways and he left a perfect outline of the trigger and handle as indicated by the red curves on his noggin. Blood trickled downward as he walked with head looking at sidewalk. No grass smears and this is why. What better way to make it look like you were in a fight and got your butt beat? He probably had used this before w/ his mommie and daddy claiming older brother Jr hit him.

    • Nef05 says:

      Great post, Searching Mind.


    Click to access order_excluding.pdf

    • ic2fools says:

      Wow! Defense won this decision. Audio testimony from experts is not the brunt of the case. Barring fogen self serving statements, West most recent Motion to allow is what most concerns me. Bears more weight on the trial than the audio testimony.

      State can secure proving its’ case with forensic, ballistic. witness testimony and fogens testimony on the stand to prove self defense.

      I’ll wait for that decision. As of now O’mara and West confidence is boosted to being over confident making for more err on their part.

      • I’m angry, disappointed, heartbroken, crying…

        • ic2fools says:

          Don’t cry babigirl, its’ gonna be all right, okay. I too had tears and had to think clearly the how the effects. More importantly ‘audio expert testimony’ is not the brunt of States’ case.

          What BDLR is doing to force Defense to put fogen on the stand. ‘audio expert testimony’ is important but won’t be the deciding factor of States’ case. Remember before audio, the investigation got the case from under the rug to full view. So hold on, you have invested much work uncovering hidden truths and IT WILL NOT BE IN VAIN SG2!!! It won’t…..

        • ic2fools says:

          IIRC John Guy on Friday did say a Daubert Hearing would have been appropriate. Let’s see the States’ next move.

          Here check this out:

          The Daubert decision was modified by “Kumho Tire Co. v. Carmichael,” 526 U.S. 137 (1999),

          **( in the sense that expert testimony is not limited to only scientific evidence and testimony, but can include other areas of expertise.)**

          If the State move for Daubert, it may hold the trial off until that decision is made. Which is what O’mara wanted from the start.

          Chin UP SG2!!! 😉

        • ic2fools says:

          SG2, oh read the last part of JN Order. Her order does not keep either party from playing the tape or presenting witnesses from testifying.

          Okay here goes, BDLR is making moves to secure that Fogen will have to testify on the stand (get in that box Jorge). Now if he is successful (I believe BDLR will be) then State can counter with fogen own words ‘that doesn’t not sound like me’

          State will have to prevail over yesterday Motion filed by West, placing defense in the position they will have to put fogen on the stand.

          Hard as it seems, we can’t, I say, we can’t view this as cut and dry wins and losses.

      • Dave says:

        O’Mara’s line has been that the state’s case depends on two key pieces of evidence: DeeDee’s testimony and the experts’ testimony regarding the 911 call. They claim that DeeDee’s credibility has been destroyed and Reich’s and Owen’s testimony has now been barred so the state supposedly has no case.

        In fact, they have been going after the state’s most emotionally charged evidence with partial success but the state has more than enough evidence to prove that the defendant profiled, pursued, confronted and murdered an innocent, unarmed kid.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @SG2 — i understand that this ruking would bring out an emotional response. please, for your peace of mind, remember that the state had grounds to charge and evidence to support that charge with or without owen and reich. it is normal in a case such as this to have it’s ups and downs. not every ruling is going to favor the prosecution. they did not put all their eggs in one basket.

    • ic2fools says:


      I see now exactly that is the case. I am in complete agreement State has more than enough evidence. No matter which venue of evidence O’mara chose to get thrown out, he’d never be able to find away to secure the defendants’ self defense claim against all State evidence recovered through investigation(s). State evidence that is solid.

      O’mara is working this as an emotional thinker and he is not a logical thinker. And is far off from ever being a logical thinker as proven in most of his decisions about the case, management of defense funds.

      Dave, I’m no longer wandering.


  68. bettykath says:

    I spend some time last night playing juror by considering what the state needed to prove for 2nd degree murder. I reviewed the minimum that I expected the state to present that directly related to each element in the charge, e.g. a killing occurred is supported by Trayvon’s body and autopsy report supported by whatever testimony by the ME; the defendant did the killing is supported by the bullet, the shell casing, the gun in the defendant’s possession at the scene at the time; depraved indifference is supported by the comments in the NEN call, the profiling in the defendant’s initial statement (suspect), following that includes getting out of his truck to follow on foot and continuing to follow even when told not to. Is there anything to dispute this evidence? Not that we have seen.

    What does the defense offer? Whatever fogen’s story, there is the bloody nose photo and the bleeding head photo to compare to the photos taken the same night at SPD, the EMT report, the PA report all show that the defendant’s injuries were minor – lacerations that didn’t require stitches, no broken nose, no report of a concussion. How did he get those injuries? It doesn’t matter b/c they are too minor to be considered life threatening and they certainly don’t support the beating he claims. Oh, yes, and back to the autopsy report that shows the lack of bruising and lack of defendant’s DNA.

    Anyway, the point I’m making is that the 911 tape wasn’t key. Oh, yes, there’s the 911 call where the screaming stops at the moment of the shot. Of course, it’s the person who was shot. Let him have the last word.

    The case will probably be a bit more complex than I have shown with more witnesses but I see the 911 call as an exclamation point, and not pivotal in determining guilty or not guilty.

    • Rachael says:

      Exactly. That is what it should end with, not what it should begin with. It merely punctuates the whole thing.

    • ks says:

      Yep. Well said and when you add the defendants phone records, the 911 call which, captures the murder on tape is the exclamation point.

    • Malisha says:

      Absolutely correct, Bettykath. “Who screamed?” doesn’t prove anything, really, but there’s a sort of atmosphere of “criminal intent” that must pervade a trial of this sort where ONLY intent matters (since we know who shot the bullet and we know who died from the shot).

      Killed is easily proven.

      Depraved mind and indifference to life is proven in the NEN call.

      Ill will is proven not only in the NEN call but aso in the use of the word “the suspect” to describe the victim, in Fogen’s written police statement. Also ill will is proven by “F*cking punks.”

      Fogen’s version of events is DISPROVEN in his own statements, both oral and written, and by the physical evidence taken from the crime scene, including the autopsy report.

      The whole thing is pretty close to undeniable and there should be no reasonable doubt at all.

      Excluding the voice experts is still, in my opinion, both peculiar and a bad sign. Much of our “justice system” is about impressions and not about facts. Many of our conclusions are based on faulty data.

      For instance: Nearly everyone has presumed that Trayvon Martin’s suspensions from school (etc.) were somehow appropriate and were not in themselves the result of profiling. I ask you: Do you know any blond white high school kids who have been suspended for ten days from any school anywhere in this country for (a) a baggie that might have contained trace amounts of marijuana; or (b) writing on a locker; or (c) being tardy? I don’t. I personally know TWO blond white kids who have never been suspended for a single day although the following confirmed conduct was in their record:

      1. Hospitalization for having ingested both drugs and alcohol at a school function and being in possession of more than an ounce of marijuana at the TIME of the hospitalization;

      2. Screaming at and trying to slap a teacher for her refusal to accept a paper that he had been told, in writing, would not be accepted after a certain date;

      3. Leaving not only the classroom but the school campus without permission and not notifying anyone of his whereabouts;

      4. Having oral sex with another student on school premises during school hours;

      5. Pouring canned soda all over and into another student’s backpack and ruining this other student’s schoolwork and a textbook.

      How do we know that the problems Trayvon had at school were all and only his “fault”? We do not know. He could very well have been in a situation where a biased system was blaming him for every tiny infraction while serious problems on the part of other kids his age were ignored (as well they probably SHOULD be unless they hurt someone).

      All we know about the events of 2/26/2012, BTW, DO prove murder-2, and would still prove murder-2 if there were absolutely silence in the background of all the 911 calls except for the gunshot.

      • bettykath says:

        ” Do you know any blond white high school kids who have been suspended for ten days from any school anywhere in this country for (a) a baggie that might have contained trace amounts of marijuana; ”

        Almost. I know a pretty blond who held a baggie in her purse for a “friend” (no longer considered such). It actually contained an herb, not mj. b/c she thought it was mj, she was put on some sort of in-school suspension. Her mom didn’t fight it. Daughter was still in school getting assignments to do and being taught that you need to be careful about who your friends are and what they ask you to do.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        As an aside, my mixed race child was suspended for ten days in another state for WEARING HIS HAIR TOO LONG, a hairstyle he’d worn off and on for TWO years, and the reason he, with my backing refused to comply. Many white kids wore their hair LONGER – but theirs hung down, but didn’t stand outward as my son’s did – a very modest Afro. Non-white students are routinely harassed by school administrators in some states.

      • Malisha says:

        OK, there may be some instances, I’m not collecting data and there’s too much to collect. But I think the recent studies of the “zero tolerance” policies show that schools disproportionately suspend Black students for long periods of time for little peccadillos that are not even proven.

    • William Walton says:

      Bettykath, you should have included GZ’s relaxed manner when the first witness came up. Oh, just call my wife and tell her I just shot someone. EMT’s stated that his vital signs were normal after the shooting. Not Realistic!

    • fauxmccoy says:


      like robertSF above, you make an excellent analysis and observations.

  69. smokeegyrl says:

    I am really upset that today there was a ruling on no voice experts for the state. Why did JN rule this way? I am so crying over here. I was so hoping this was going to go through.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      Okay… okay.. now that I have stopped being emotional about the judges ruling and read some of your posting and realized about my own video’s of the scream… How dumb am I… that our own ears can be the experts in this case.. such as Rachael said… Those screams our in God’s hands now… I just hope the media will see it in the same way… There is tension out there and I feel it on Facebook.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I read that the pdf doc, I don’t agree with it but will accept it. The only thing I can go on and hope the State will go on is that twice Fogen voiced that he was not the voice screaming in his initial interviews until his Dad decided to say it was… then from there he said it was him screaming. Another dad cover up. I hope they can prove those other charge were cover ups.

      • chi1224 says:

        Hey girl I know how you feel, I shed a few tears myself, but people here have made some valid points. The main thing is the tape is IN, the jury WILL hear those screams, and common sense and other evidence will tell them who is screaming! They will still hear Trayvon’s cries!

      • Yorazigo says:

        Also, although RZ Sr said the voice was 100% GZ, he said he heard GZ scream like that “many times AS A TEENAGER” under oath in court hearing – can’t take back that statement! I would interpret his words as acknowledgement that it was a voice of a screaming teenager!

  70. Shari says:

    AC was appointed to quiet things down. Remember when the 2 lawyers couldn’t find Zimmerman? Things were getting really antsy and the public was jumpy. When he was charged with 2nd degree I figured the fix was in. We know it was 1rst degree murder, we know he was never in fear for his life. He has an all white jury some who wonder why Travyon was out “so late at night.” The defense jury expert likes this jury. Zimmerman is laughing having a good ole time, his wife is getting her hair and make up done with donations. They don’t look worried to me. We all want the DOJ to clean house in Sanford because we know the criminal justice system stinks there including a cop who said he didn’t want a black boss. I don’t believe for one minute we are going to get into the conflicts of interests and what role Wolfinger played that night. Zimmermans friends were there that night half way investigating him. And I do believe that if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman in TRUE self defense Zimmerman’s friends would have manufactured lots of evidence against him.

    I will say this. I don’t know the law. So maybe although I don’t like her rulings they are lawful and line up with precedent.

    Something stinks here…

    • Malisha says:

      Agreed. I think FDLE realized they could not just refuse to deal with the problem altogether. I don’t expect an acquittal but I would not be surprised at a sudden onslaught of pro-Fogen press and then a quite plea deal, very inappropriate, and all accepted by Judge Nelson.

      Does our country deserve better than that? An open question. I have seen DOA Inspector General investigations take eight months, use up hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars, and be totally fraudulent from A to Z, resulting in 400+-page reports that conclude “something might have happened,” and all to “satisfy” people that investigations were done and that our government will not tolerate murder, child-rape, you name it. It would not surprise me. When you look at the Marissa Alexander case and you look at the way this case progressed up until Corey brought the charges (and even after), it becomes clear. And the real abuser, the real criminal, in the Alexander case has custody of her baby because she tried to defend herself against a possibly lethal physical attack. That’s thanks to the corrupt Florida system too. No surprises will surprise me, as bizarre as they can get.

      I will say I did expect better but that’s MY problem. I also don’t think the voice experts prove or disprove murder-2; but to accomplish an unconscionable plea deal, you don’t need to prove or disprove murder-2; all you need to do is get the press screaming about an irrelevancy enough to sell a lame pig for a silver llama.

    • William Walton says:

      Shari, keep in mind that the witnesses for GZ may be doing it out of fear of GZ. Reading much of what has gone on and is going on, I just wonder if GZ was not the Gestopo of the gated community and you better not cross him. Just a thought.

  71. RobertSF says:

    Folks, don’t worry about Judge Nelson’s ruling. Not only did she close an avenue of appeal, but she did the prosecution a favor for its own good.

    There is such a thing as too much science. Frankly, I was getting a bit skeptical about the words the prosecution’s experts claimed to have teased out of the recording. “There shall be…” said in religious tones? As you know, Americans are skeptical enough about science as it is.

    The 911 call, of course, is still admissible, and I think it’s better to let the jury use its common sense. Does it make sense that the guy with the gun was screaming for help? Does it make sense that the guy with the gun continued to scream after making the decision to take his gun in his hand and press the trigger, and to continue to scream until he pressed the trigger, at which point he went completely silent mid-scream?

    Does it make sense that he was able to scream uninterruptedly while, according to him, his alleged assailant was slamming his head against the concrete with his two hands, simultaneously covering his nose and mouth with his other two hands, AND going for his gun with his free fifth hand?

    I’m pretty confident the jury won’t need experts to tell it that the screams are not Zimmerman’s.

    • ks says:

      Agreed. Though I think JN erred, she erred on the side of caution and I’m sure the spectacle of West stumbling through days of cross wasn’t appealing either. lol.

      The defense ploy was to try and get the experts and tape tossed so the bottom line is that the tape is in and she allowed people known to both parties to testify as to who it was screaming on the tape. In practice that means that the prosecution will get to play the.tape several times in open court.

    • Rachael says:

      I agree with you totally. Did you see how long it took to go through all that crap with the defense? JN is looking for some swift justice and like you said, there was perhaps too much “science” and between that and the defense, it would only serve to confuse the jury, as well as bore them to tears.

      Call me old fashioned, call me a disgruntled displaced worker because of voice recognition, but nothing really beats a trained human ear together with context.

      She is still letting the tape in.

      It doesn’t require science. It only requires common sense.

      I keep saying it – and you may get tired of hearing it, but I believe it:

      Screaming – gunshot – silence.

      • William Walton says:

        Rachael, you are absolutely correct 100%. When the jurors hear the screams, the gunshot, then silence, that will be more informative to them than experts testifying. The experts would have been nice should Omara and team try to pull some of their BS.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Screaming – gunshot – silence — Rachael

        Absolutely — Forget the experts droning on, sucking up time People have ears.

    • Dave says:

      I’m glad she ruled as she did. I really don’t want to sit through another week of dueling experts and I’m sure the jurors won’t either. Reich ‘s and Owen’s conclusions may be correct but their methods are questionable and I wouldn’t. expect an impartial jury to buy their conclusions. The recording itself is admissable and the jury shouldn’t have any trouble figuring out who is screaming and why.

    • BahamaMama says:

      Robertsf, a voice of reason. I agree with you, completely.
      I am disapointed at how many on here have NOW thrown in the towel…what about ALL the EVIDENCE?
      GZ is going to PRISON, he is guilty, and the prosecution will PROVE it.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Thrown in the towel and are throwing this great judge under the bus… this is supposed to be a FAIR trial…. unfortunately that means ONE side doesn’t win every argument it makes…. this judge has ruled FAR more for the State than the defense and she has NOT made this trial so one sided that it will win an appeal from the defense… the whining about it being an all female jury in my opinion is silly, and there IS one minority on that jury…. are we now saying that the ONLY way there is justice is if the jury has a black person on it? The ONLY people that support and believe that Fogen is a murderer are black people?

        Are we saying that ONLY those two experts can make a jury hear that it was Trayvon screaming and begging for his life? REALLY? That is what everybody is feeling now?

        NOT ME…. I didn’t need those experts to tell me that was Trayvon screaming and begging for his life… and his Momma sure didn’t need them to tell her. And I am a little *WHITE* *GIRL* who has no doubt that Fogen is a murderer…. I didn’t and don’t need anybody black, green, purple, brown, or orange to help me get to that conclusion…. jus sayin

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      I agree with RobertSF. The audio experts battle was turning into an FRE 403 sideshow. Thank you, JN, for saving the jury from confusion of the issues, undue delay and waste of time . The defense would have burned five days cross-examining the experts. It’s not worth it.

    • two sides to a story says:

      Though I feel a little sick about the ruling, the tape without experts is actually far more powerful and less confusing to a jury.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Sad part is the Conservative Crackhouse or whoever is going to pounce and my pride (or strong desire to see GZF held fully accountable) puts me on edge…I just don’t want to hear “them”try to spread the word and claim victory… I was on a hike today with a guy feom my church and I brought up this case. He claimed to know “very little” about this case and yet tried to correct me when I called Trayvon a kid. When I said the media has put out misinformation, he knowing which side I leaned towards was sure to emphasize, the misinfo came from both sides… It is clear to me what cable news show he watches… I am sick and tired of people that don’t know anything about the actual facts and evidence of the case drawing conclusions based on ___?____.

    • chi1224 says:

      Thank you for this post. I have been sick about this ruling, and needed a huge reminder that common sense SHOULD prevail. No judge wants to be overturned on appeal, and I suppose JN has to be mindful of that….. still….. I just feel nervous and wish I could be 100% sure Fogen will be convicted. To me it’s OBVIOUS murder, but then I see that Fogen actually has supporters and that in itself is shocking to me, and the very reason I worry he might not be convicted. Racism is alive and well when someone like Fogen has supporters.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      You are correct, but to see them win at anything is a downer.

      The jury of women who I have already found to be smart and analytical, will indeed use their common sense when presented with all of the evidence.

    • kllypyn says:

      you also don’t hear any dull thuds as someones fist is hitting another’s face.,

      • racerrodig says:

        There’s a lot you don’t hear, like the sound of Mr. Skull meeting Mr. Concrete…..and this jewel “…..I think he’s getting his head pounded on the sidewalk……you need to send them now”

        You certainly don’t hear any adult voice in a muffled tone say ….

        “…..whatrjdyufnvuhhhhhhhhmm………………helphhhhhffffff…….uhhhhyyy…………….ahhgthhhhh……”(smack) “ahhgthhh…….”

        Nor Trayvon say

        “Take that homie!!” (smack)

        “hmmmmmmppfffff (smack) Ahhhhhmmmmmm……..”(smack)

        No, we heard Dee and one other witness say “…what are you doing around hear” we also heard the tone of PhatFogen what he said “…shit…he’s running”

        Not “oh darn…..he just skipped off into the night……..never mind”

        When most of us adult males utter the word “shit” it’s because something usually just went against the plan….like “Shit, that hurt” as I wipe the blood from my forehead this past Monday when a wrench broke as I had all my weight on it. Not “Oh darn….another broken tool”

        • Standing on a cheater when it snapped I’d guess?

          • racerrodig says:

            Nope…69 Camaro on the lift installing tubular control arms and the socket just slipped off……shit happens…..it’s happened before, it happen on Monday and I’m betting it’ll happen again.

    • Mike says:

      IMO what the expert says is Fogen saying these shall be sounds more like “who’s doing the brake ins”followed by huh .

    • William Walton says:

      RobertSF, As a geochemist and geoengineer, I totally agree. The science could have just confused the jurors instead of just letting them listen to the tapes and draw their own conclusion. There were many on here who were confused as to what was going on with the experts during the hearing. Same could have happened to the jury had the experts testified. I like the phrase of KISS and use it quite frequently especially when dealing with non-technical people. Keep It Simple Stupid. I use it for me not them. In essence, don’t over whelm them with data, theories, etc.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      right on robert! i believe you summed this up quite nicely. no mother needs an expert to tell them who was screaming – the answer is obvious when all things are taken in context.

  72. CherokeeNative says:

    Just my two cents – I believe that the State’s case is much stronger than just resting upon these experts’ testimony. I am more concerned about the two rulings that the Judge has to make with regard to the hearsay statements and the relaxed evidentiary rules that the defense is trying to push through.

    No matter what – if the forensics prove that George was not on his back when he fired that shot as I suspect they will – George is a goner.

    • Tzar says:

      HI Cherokee
      you are missed

    • bettykath says:

      Cherokee, I agree with you.

      I also agree with Tzar, good to have you back.

    • Malisha says:

      Even if Fogen HAD been on his back when the shot was fired he would be guilty of Murder-2 because Trayvon Martin had a right to defend himself. The SYG cases say that too. You are not allowed to claim self-defense in a fight you instigated. And instigating a fight is very clear from the NEN call when Fogen complains that “these a55holes — they always get away.”

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Wasn’t disagreeing with that point of view – I just firmly believe that the State has the forensic goods on George that he was not on his back at the time he fired his gun.

        Thanks Tzar and BettyKath 🙂

    • nocamo33 says:

      Aha! Maybe grant this one because she’s going to say heck no on the other ones? Does “judging” work like that?

  73. Nellie Nell says:

    Has the Judge made her decision that there will be no expert testimony to the tapes???? Where does that leave us? I am literally sick to my stomach!!!!!

  74. Malisha says:

    Uh oh this could have been (could BE) the elaborate charade needed by FDLE to dispose of the case while appearing to prosecute vigorously —

    • Shari says:

      Thank you. Zimmerman HAD to be arrested everyone knew that. It’s been over a year since Trayvon died, they have spent that year throwing dirt on the dead childs name. Zimmerman has more donations, and people have stopped paying attention. This is what they wanted.

  75. CherokeeNative says:

    Here is a copy of the Order courtesy of Papapi (hat tip to my friend for always being on the ball )

    shared from my Google Drive

  76. Rachael says:

    I still say there is no expert necessary. It does not take a rocket scientist.

    Screaming – gunshot – silence.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      I agree. I still think the experts should be allowed to give their expert opinion to the screams. The state has wasted a ton of money to have them do the research and work on the tapes, so to me, she just blew about $10K or more of the states money with the defenses bogus claim. Because they could not find anyone in the “community” to say that the screams were that of the murderer so they do not want any experts to testify. Curious as to why the liars that did testify for the defense on their opinions. Just sick of them and the state should appeal this decision made by the judge. Give the defense a taste of their own medicine! Uggggggggg

      • Rachael says:

        The way it was going with West, it would have only clouded the issue. The case isn’t based on the screams. If the prosecution lays out their case and ends with the screams, all will be well. I promise.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Very good point. Defenses’ way to make up for their lack of experts is to eliminate all? A murder case involving a recorded scream and NO expert testimony permitted to guide the jury? It does seem odd indeed. I read someones’ post on Nokasone and am getting that feeling in the pit of my gut. I felt that way when I heard him testify. The Feds taking a position that supports the defense. It is kind of hard to do battle on the ground when getting hit with napalm from above. I hope I am right about JN (reference to a previous post). Otherwise, this could very well spell the beginning of a very bitter end.

    • William Walton says:

      Rachael, I agree. The experts would have been the icing on the cake should Omara and West try their bullshit tactics.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      rachel — that has been the contention of this blog and our prior consensus model all along. i’ll stand by that.

  77. two sides to a story says:

    Good morning! Fogen has had me up early on the left coast so often to watch his deal (I still don’t know what it is), that I was up at the crack of dawn today too. Glad to see a LeatherPapa production!

    The defense certainly seems desperate to change the Fogen narrative and witness narrative to something it never was, behavior right out of the Treestump playbook.

  78. towerflower says:

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! How can this be? A lawyer who tripped all over themselves and experts who have testified with the science before. It doesn’t make any sense.

    • Sophia33 says:

      It makes perfect sense if you look at the history of cases of this nature in the United States. The fix is in.

      • truthseeker66 says:


      • Malisha says:

        I agree, Sophia.

        One point, however, is that now THIS CASE can be starting to set a precedent for NOT allowing the standard, used-before methods that are commonly used for voice identification, etc.

        In that respect, it surprises me even more. Very few murders are actually caught on tape.

        It is also quite disgusting that Fogen’s “theft of dying scream” will go unpunished.

        I still believe there is very little chance of acquittal; there is, however, now, a serious risk of a nasty plea deal that no decent society should ever have to accept. And Judge Nelson looks to me like she will accept it. What a disappointment.

        I will not make a prediction about what I think will happen to Fogen if he puts through a plea deal that gives him his freedom. I do not think there will be any riots. I do not think there will be an act of violence against HIM or a family member. But my other guesses will go into a work of fiction, not onto this blog.

      • type1juve says:

        I agree, this is so disappointing!

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I hope she wasn’t feeling guilty above laying them out, the only reason I can think of is the length of time of tape , that 3 seconds bs. We can’t get feeling like its a slam dunk , that is always when things f*ck up. Hope for the best, expect the worst.

  79. Nef05 says:

    Prof, Anyone – I don’t believe I have a firm grasp on the how the defense can utilize what portions, all or part of a police statement, if it is admitted first by the prosecution.

    Can West have submitted this ridiculously inaccurate motion to force the prosecution to enter some part of fogen’s statements to refute it – thereby opening the door for the defense to use fogen’s self defense portion of the same statement, and keep him off the stand? A kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Either refute the motion with fogen’s lies, putting the statement those lies came from into evidence – or don’t use his lies to refute it, and allow the alleged “res gestae” statements in?

    • bettykath says:

      Testimony at the hearing is just for that hearing. It is not done in front of the jury. The hearing is preliminary to the trial. The hearings set the rules to be followed during the trial and to determine what the jury will hear.

      • bettykath says:

        The jury sees only the working result of the hearing, not the motion or the testimony that led to the judge’s decision.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      Hi, Nef:

      Good to see you and fauxmccoy here.

      Although West does not appear to have a grasp of the rules of evidence (e.g., objecting to an objection, not understanding a declarant needs to be under the stress of an event for the excited utterance exception to apply), I think the defense will ultimately argue that at least some of GZ’s statements/lies are admissible as nonhearsay statements — effect on the listener (“You got a problem, homie?”) and state of mind (alleged banging head on concrete).

      Hopefully, at some point Fred will expound on his previous hearsay posts to explain: (1) which statements are admissible as nonhearsay outside the Rules of Evidence and why; (2) which statements are admissible as hearsay under an exception to the hearsay rules (medical condition?); and (3) which statements are admissible as nonhearsay within the Rules of Evidence.

      Despite following this blog and watching Fred drop knowledge for months, this is my first day posting here. May post more once trial is underway, as I will record the proceedings and watch them at night.

      In the meantime, I’ll keep an eye out for Fred’s weekend posts.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        howdy and a hearty welcome. i am assuming that we know each other from huffpost, but am wondering if you post under a different name? i don’t post there often as i consider the place a cess pool – but will happily go back to look through records of ‘friends’.

        don’t be a stranger!

  80. tonya B says:

    ****breaking news***** jn denies expert testimony

    • *hyperventilating*

      Say it ain’t so! Why would Judge Nelson do this? She allowed the defense to strike a black female juror because of what her pastor wrote and now this? I cannot take an Emmett Till verdict. My heart will not take it.

  81. HereslookingatYou says:

    well anybody with any common sense should know fist are not going to make you scream that death scream add that to the scream cutting off .. the jury should be able to figure it out.. still ticked

  82. Sophia33 says:

    I think Nelson is trying to all she can to prevent an overturn on appeal. Hence the reason for the expert decision. Now if she grants West’s motion then we have a problem. Plus, don’t forget, the defense doesn’t have an expert to say it was GZ.

  83. HereslookingatYou says:

    can they play that exemplar dough boy made? help help help

  84. Sophia33 says:

    She is allowing the 911 tapes to be played and people who know the two can say who was screaming. GZ said it wasn’t his voice in initial interviews with Serino. Hopefully, the defense can play that.

  85. HereslookingatYou says:

    If she allows in those supposed utterances that will speak volumes.

  86. chi1224 says:

    WTF is going on with Judge Nelson??!!!???? I HOPE the jurors already know about the experts!! This is not right!!!!!!!!

    • concernedczen says:

      After what she did during jury selection, I have no more faith in this woman.

      • chi1224 says:

        I am just sick over this latest ruling! I now seriously question her bias. Unbelievable!! Like I said earlier I hope the jurors already know the opinion of the experts. They are human and this case has been ALL over the news, especially where they live. I feel like the judge is ignoring the screams of Trayvon, which is central to this case and proves Fogen is a murdering LIAR! I am outraged!!

      • HereslookingatYou says:

        all she need to do now is allow in the supposed utterances

      • bettykath says:

        It may be disappointing, but take a breath. The tape itself is in. The damning part of the scream is when it ends. When the defendant testifies, the jury will get their own exemplar. They will know that the defendant couldn’t have made those sounds.

    • The juror’s, the audio experts?

      I really wonder about the allowable opening statements or whether she’ll exclude text messages or GPS info. I wonder if either her peers or higher ups got to her.

    • Malisha says:

      Extremely peculiar, since the Frye hearing did not actually challenge the methods used, and ONLY the methods used can be challenged at a Frye hearing.

      It is extremely peculiar. I am wondering if now is the time that I re-evaluate my “bet” scenario where the prosecution and defense put in a plea deal so that the full plate of evidence can never be served, just to save the SPD and other parties in the FDLE. Hmmm… Has anybody seen the order itself?

    • Jun says:

      Before we jump to a conclusion, is there an actual written order yet?

      Remember how they screwed up last time, the media did?

      • concernedczen says:

        That’s what it seems like to me. After the court of appeals overturned her (correct) decision on not allowing Mr. Crump’s deposition, maybe she is feeling pressure to help the defense out. The local media are certainly on Zimmerman’s side. No reason to think the local politicians aren’t as well.

        This is BS just like not allowing the prosecution to exclude 2 witnesses with their Peremptory challenges but letting the defense exclude the remaining 2 black jurors.

      • Jun says:

        I dont know what to think

        Nothing I can do about it either

        If it’s true, the state should appeal the ruling or request a Daubert Hearing

      • ic2fools says:

        That’s right Jun. OS is usually first to report, especially when it comes to the defense being granted a decision. Every other smaller reporting media site has this info. I have yet to see OS, ABC, ‘ehem FOX report on this yet. They also would have link to the written order.

        I’ll wait until further confirmation.

        (sic), but gzlegal would have been touting camera coverage where ever they are to stop whatever they were doing, gloating a win of Frye Hearing.

      • ic2fools says:

        Didn’t Judge Nelson she had to review her notes, 4 days of witness testimony, get her thoughts together before ruling. Yeah she did. Taking into consideration too, she may want to prevent defense from spouting their opinions about Frye Hearing this weekend, seeing how the jury is not completely sequestered yet.

        Sounds like a defense, fogen supporters’ and/or joonyer RUSE stirring the pot of poison to further taint the jury and public opinion.

        Court know O’mara use any and every opportunity to twist factual info in media directing it toward jurors and has also done it in court. i.e. vid of homeless man beating.

        Remember O’mara want more donations’ and that’s one to get more donations giving them and idea defense is winning.

      • ic2fools says:

        to add:

        and leaking tha t information to small new cites keeping OS out of reporting that ruse.

        Ain’t passing the Stinky Meter ya’ll

      • two sides to a story says:

        You can read the full order posted at Axiom Amnesia – http://axiomamnesia.com/2013/06/22/judge-nelson-rules-favor-zimmerman-defense-states-9-1-1-voice-experts-docs/

        I have a sick feeling about all this at the moment.

      • ay2z says:

        Tstas. don’t forget, it’s only the mathematics and machines that can’t do it, we are all human listeners, every one of the jurors is an English language listener, and each can listen and use god-given or God given or just plan old common sense to the testimony of Sybrina about the child she raised from the moment he was born until the day he died.

        The state won’t even need fogen’s exemplar. Speaking of res gestae and the self-serving issue, need to go back to Profs article.

        Hmm… Don West is giving opening statements on behalf of his client. If Don West makes bumbles and says things incorrectly, has all this confusion, anger, and strange behaviour, been part of the plan, if not an act, the ability of MOM to distance himself from things Don says and does that the jury should not hear?

    • bettykath says:

      I expect that they are disallowed b/c all three defense witnesses claimed that the methodologies used, while not new, using them with such small amounts of data is simply not done and using them with screams is well beyond state of the art.

      The links on the court’s website no longer work. Has anyone else been able to retrieve the documents? http://www.flcourts18.org/page.php?129

    • nocamo33 says:

      Have faith. Does not the judge know the evidence? All of it? My guess is she knows exactly how strong the prosecutions’ case is. This is a minor obstacle to overcome in the grand scheme of things. Zimmerman, the bells are tolling buddy. As one astute observer likes to say, tick tock, tick tock.

      • Xena says:

        Judge Nelson sat through West’s painful, drawn-out, confusing questioning. She wants to save the jury the torture, for that would surely confuse them. It’s much easier for the jury to hear Papa Zim say he heard GZ sound like that when a teenager, a witness say they assumed if was GZ, Serino say that GZ said it didn’t sound like him, and numerous other witnesses say that it was Trayvon or sounded like a kid’s voice.

        • racerrodig says:

          “… It’s much easier for the jury to hear Papa Zim say he heard GZ sound like that when a teenager,”

          BDLR “So as you stated before Mr. Fogen the elder, you heard your son scream in terror just like that recording when he was a teenager, correct?”

          RZ “….well, that’s not what I meant…see, that is…um…..”

          BDLR “So he never screamed like that in terror, is that what your saying?”

          RZ “Well he, I mean…….”

          BDLR “The bottom line is……….he never screamed like that……I have no use for this witness any further Your Honor”

          It won’t be hard for Bernie to get to “Game ~ Set ~ Match” at all.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Between Papa Zim’s use of adjectives such as “positively” and “absolutely” and O’Mara’s repeats of “very very,” “really, really,” the jury’s verdict might read “We the jury positively, absolutely find defendant, George Michael Zimmerman, is very, very, really, really, guilty of murder in the second degree.”

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m inclined to think you really really, positively have this nailed 100%……in fact…I think it’s…um, undisputed that his client is very, very guilty.

            If Bernie were to write a book ala Vincent Bugliosi (Helter Skelter) with every witness screw up I’ll bet he’s says he was saying to himself “Owned !!”

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. You just inspired my next video. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Way Kool…..I just turned my computer on, been busy all day and I apologize for being so far behind.

        • nocamo33 says:

          very good point. Thanks Xena! (sorry for the late response)

      • chi1224 says:

        Thanks. I’m feeling better now. Much better.

        Hoodies up!

  87. concernedczen says:

    Apparently, Judge Nelson is not letting in Dr. Reich or Mr. Owen.

    “Jose Luis Dieppa ‏@JOSELUISDIEPPA 7m
    Judge Nelson issues Order Excluding OpinionTestimony of Mr. Owen & Dr. Reich #Zimmerman #News13”

    After what Judge Nelson did during jury selection, I am thoroughly disgusted with her.

    • If this is true, its quite heartbreaking.

    • BahamaMama says:

      CC, the jury will listen to that call and use their heads, and know its Trayvon. Remember, that is only one part of the overall evidence, when it’s all taken together, it proves gz’s guilt.
      When this jury convicts GZ, no one can say it was because of their race.

      • concernedczen says:

        I think we might be wandering into wishful thinking territory now. After hearing so many of those biased jurors and how judge Nelson tied the hands of the prosecutor from getting rid of them but allowed the defense to exclude the remaining black jurors, I think we are looking at a hung jury.

      • I agree with Concerned. This seems like a difficult task without being able to interject the exact dialogue that took place.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I agree with concernedczen. I think this is wishful thinking. I have no faith in this jury particularly after what happened in the case of the police officer killing Aiyana Jones.

      • Malisha says:

        The scream does not prove murder, but the physical evidence and the NEN tape, taken together, DO prove murder. Still, not allowing the experts is insane.

        Professor, can the prosecution make a trip up to the appellate DCA to challenge Nelson’s ruling excluding the specific experts?

        Do we think (considering the role Nakasone played) that this ruling was the result of a fix put in by the FBI so that they do not have to make the obvious finding their investigation will inevitably lead to about the SPD and Wolfinger? Do we think that Nelson is going along with a Corey-backed plan to save the state from the feds while all along she looked like she really wanted to slam Fogen’s a55 in prison?

      • nocamo33 says:

        Unf, it can be the “reasonable doubt” the defense so desperately needs.

        • cielo62 says:

          Nocamo- WHAT “reasonable doubt”? GZ claims to have been beaten, head slammed, face smothered and yet there’s NOT ONE SPECK OF DNA ON TRAYVON?? GZ was never in any danger. He didn’t even have bruises and neither did Trayvon. This evidence is heartbreaking and poignant. But it’s NOT the entire ball of wax.


          • nocamo33 says:

            cielo! 1st off, sorry for the late reply as I just discovered (rediscovered?) the “notifications” tab upper right hand corner. My initial reaction to the withholding of that evidence was what you read above. I no longer believe that was a bad move, thanks to the professor. I do however stand by the fact that no matter how much evidence is shown (I know there is much), the defense only needs (drumroll please) reasonable doubt. You and I can believe there is none till the cows come home. The defense’s only hope is that they can identify (manufacture rather) some. That is all they have. But such a small, seemingly insignificant or nonexistent thing is not to be taken lightly. The defense just needs to create the perception that such exists in the minds of the jury and BAM. Case dismissed with prejudice. Capiche. In summary, I am not saying there is “reasonable” doubt. I am saying that that is the core of the defense’s shenanigans. They don’t present evidence (I should say won’t, when it’s their turn to go). They try to muddy the evidence presented to the jury that the Pros puts forth. By the way, I am noticing a lot of tension on this blog lately. I saw someone comment on “pressure”. I would look out for any new avatars on this blog. I am thoroughly convinced (even before today) that the defense has spent most of their time and money launching an clandestine (right word?) media/public relations campaign on various high profile blog. I would not be surprised if they have finally caught on to the power of Fred’s (and company’s) approach to this case (that being utilizing actual legal knowledge and skill to their observations of this case). If I were the defense concerned that the wrong people might be influenced by this (at such a critical time in the case), I would want to “divide” and conquer. Just my 2 (paranoid) cents.

          • cielo62 says:

            Nocamo- I think part if the tension has indeed been new folks coming here and causing a ruckus. Asking questions that this “class” covered thoroughly months ago. Some have belligerent and negative ways of commenting. I’ve done my share of jumping to conclusions and jumping on folks. The jury is sequestered so its highly unlikely they even know we exist. But a supremacist’s agenda knows no logic.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • nocamo33 says:

            “Supremacist agenda” scary! What has been eye opening is to see how far said agenda reaches.

    • Jun says:

      I agree with you on the jurors

      The jurors were really biased in favor of Fogen before even looking at all the evidence and not even taking into account that Omara has repeatedly lied

      Most of the posts I see are Pro-Fogen

      I read posts that pretty much only care about what happens to Sanford and are afraid of riots or Pro Fogen Gang Members attacking Florida, as Fogen Gang Members have threatened to do so on facebook

      However, I will be honest and say I do not know what the jurors that are on think or feel

      Everything we have heard and seen at this point is honestly hearsay

      I honestly predict it’s gonna be a war like the 2013 NBA championship series between the Spurs and the Heat

      After this, if the jury is not hung and it’s a conviction, the Fogen gang cant argue or appeal anything because they made the trial unbelievably biased against the victim, the dead kid

      However, I feel since it’s an affirmative defense they are using, they should be presenting evidence to support their affirmative defense to be allowed it to be weighed and that the jurors should know that the kid has rights to a fair weighing of evidence before being found at fault and blamed and have it justified

      I still see it as 50/50 and half full and I do not see it as an easy fight in court

      I know Omara will use dirty tricks but it is what it is

      • Rachael says:

        That is the one thing I have learned in life and learned in law classes, you never know about a jury. As well, there is evidence we have not yet seen.

    • DruDo says:

      concerned–I’m becoming more and more uneasy about JN and find myself not trusting her as I did at first. I question her apparently overlooking the disrespect shown towards her by the defense and also what seems to be some leaning towards the defense. I hope I’m wrong, but I can’t shake a bad feeling I’m getting about her.

      • nocamo33 says:

        She treads a fine line. She shows favor to both sides (contrary to Baez, I feel this is a prosecution jury, not to mention motions denied to the defense) and now this ruling (I take your word it occurred as I have not seen it). It is a show of extreme discipline to feel in your gut who is right, but to grant and restrict as evenhandedly as possible. Remember what happened to the last judge that spanked Zimmerman publicly. JN like all of us, is also placing her faith in the jury, IMO. I believe she is also trying not to get turnd over on appeal, should it come to that.

      • cielo62 says:

        Dru-Do: I believe Judge Nelson is blowing those clowns off. She will NOT give them grounds to get her recused at this time. But wait til trial is over. I certainly hope to be surprised in actions against the defense.


  88. Malisha says:

    OK here’s another big OOPS in Fogen’s rendition of “the way I was forced to kill in self-defense when plain murder would have been enough”:

    You see a suspicious guy.
    He comes to check you out and circles your car.
    Then, shit, he runs.
    Then you go looking for a house number like a good citizen.
    Then he “again emerges from the darkness.”
    Then he homies you and sucker punches you and leaps on you and pummels and smashes and punches and smothers you.
    Then your SHIRT RIDES UP so YOU FEEL he sees “the” gun,
    Then he says “You’re gonna die tonight mufukka” and
    THen he reaches for your gun and
    Then you “pinch” his hand and draw your gun and
    Then you fire one shot and
    Then he says “OP! You got me” or “You got it” and
    Then he falls away from you or you push him off you and

    Then, you’ve got a gun in your hand and
    He’s OFF you and
    YOU know the police are on their way and

    … ➡ ➡ ➡ ➡

    So, OK, you want us to believe that THEN the scene is something DIFFERENT from the following OBVIOUS scene that would have played out if you had been ambushed and viciously beaten:


    You would have taken a step or two BACK from the guy on the ground. After all, he fooled you ONCE into thinking “he ran” when really he was planning his AMBUSH of you while fooling you into thinking he was afraid of you. After taking the step or two back, or even WHILE taking the step or two back, with your gun still aimed right at him (with both hands by now because you’ve been able to stand up), your utterance wouldn’t have been, “I was calling out for help” but, rather, obviously:

    “Don’t move or I will shoot; the police are on their way.”

    See, Fogen, you would NOT have gotten on top of him. You had to say that because Mary and Selma SAW you on top of him right after the shot. You would NOT have spread his hands out looking for something in his hands, because to do that you would have had to stop holding your own gun, and why do THAT when you have the upper hand and now you can protect yourself?

    See, Fogen, you’re not smart enough to make up a pack of lies to cover a murder. A person has to be smarter than you are to get away with murder.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh BTW, I think the second motive for West and O’Mara to file the motion yesterday to get the res-alleged-gestae-NOT statements in (other than trying to slip in “self-defense” by the back door of the Outhouse without making Fogen take the stand) is to introduce to the court the THEORY (perhaps about to be “backed up” by this psychiatrist guy whose name one juror has heard) that after shooting Trayvon Martin, Fogen was disoriented and mentally unbalanced, THUS providing an excuse for his having told eight or nine mutually exclusive MATERIAL lies within a few days, each and every one of which could be disproven by physical evidence that the SPD at first chose to ignore.

      They’re looking for a way to explain away the lies. They’re gonna try to say their guy was just so weally weally upsetted by being beaten (and smashed and punched and smothered and bashed and mounted) when he was just looking for a house number while protecting his neighborhood that he couldn’t think straight and he got all mixed up and THAT’s why the stories are impossible. He was just all excited so his utterances were … uh … all res gesty and stuff and … nobody really knows what happened so … if you really can’t say WHAT happened then it’s 50/50, coulda been self-defense and could’a been murder but when you have 50/50 that’s not “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” so you must akWITT.

      Yeah, that’s it. (Either Fogen was so confused all his statements were wrong and some other version of “Fogen killed a thug who attacked him” really happened) OR (uh oh Fogen has PTSD now and can’t go to trial so we need a couple of decades of continuances — until Judge Nelson retires perhaps — and meanwhile, please take off that ankle bracelet because some psychiatrist with the initials JD thinks they’re stressing the accused citizen — and DON’T call him “wannabe cop,” only refer to him as “Afro-Peruvian victim of unprovoked attempt to murder guy on the way to Target”).

    • bettykath says:

      so why was Trayvon found with both hands under his body?

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen said “I don’t know” to that one, when asked directly.

      • ay2z says:

        Fogen has a neat streak, amongst other things. Making neat after positioning and searching for the gun. Not exactly good cop technique when holding a live suspect at gunpoint– “get on the ground, put your hands where I can NOT see them!’

    • dianetrotter says:

      Why would there be something in Trayvon’s hands when he was “beating” gz with BOTH hands. He had no time to put something in his hands.

      • two sides to a story says:

        Trayvon may have had his phone in one hand.

      • Malisha says:

        Furthermore, when “smothering” you can’t have something in your hands, can you? FurthermoreMORE, he said Trayvon held his hands up (position of open-handed surrender, which he demonstrated at the “reenactment”) and said “Op you got me, or you got it” after being shot. So — something was in his hands? Why would Fogen want to find it anyway, since HE had a gun in HIS hands?

        • racerrodig says:

          Remember his stories are so many he said in one of his police interviews he was getting hit so hard he though Trayvon had something in his hands……but smothering him…..mouth and nose…
          ….with something in his hands…..and pounding his head on the sidewalk……with something in his hands…..Hmmmmmmm ??

          Must be a “Homie” thing….I can’t figure it out.

      • Xena says:

        A better question is, how was Trayvon smothering GZ with both hands if he was holding anything in either hand?

    • nocamo33 says:

      “Then he homies you”. Lol. What is amazing to me about this case is that many can see the killer for what he is and others (not necessarily the hard core racists) actually believe his load of bologna…. These are the ones that base this case on much of what he says and yet know so little about the case. In that regard he is a “genius”. I believe his effectiveness as a liar is a direct result of his fathers’ influence on him and example for him.

      • racerrodig says:

        His story makes about as much sense as being in a war zone, involved in a massive firefight……..and wondering why your watch isn’t working……and telling the Sgt. “I need to find a new watch battery”

        As if there was nothing more important to do…..I know !!! I’ll tell the world I was freaking lost on one of the three, count ’em three (3) streets in the sub development where I live. Yeah…that’s the ticket!!

        It should never have gotten past “…oh shit..he’s running” think I’ll go to Target, or home….whatever….and that’s the extreme, since he had no legal grounds nor right to even follow Trayvon.

  89. LLMPapa says:

    “I saw the police officer, so I stood up and holstered my weapon.”

    LOL, sure you did….

    You’re straddle of a dead child….got a pistol in your hand….see a cop approaching….get up off the victim…and cool as a cucumber, “holster your weapon”?

    That’s some funny chit, dude. Anyone that didn’t want to get their azz blown away had best drop that gun like it was on FIRE!

    • Nef05 says:

      Aren’t there some conflicting reports on that, as well? IIRC – wasn’t there some question as to whether the gun was on the ground or in his hand, when the cop came into the picture?

      • Dave says:

        In the reenactment he states that he set the gun down on the ground within easy reach of the “thug” who had nearly killed him and whom he thought might still be alive.

      • Nef05 says:

        Thanks, Dave. Fogen lies so often about so much, it’s hard for any one person to keep track of them all. Nothing he says makes any sense.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        And in the Singleton interview he holsters the gun before he gets on top of Trayvon.

        • racerrodig says:

          Better yet, in his “reenactment” he said he put his gun over there and points to his right. Less than a minute later he says he “showed” the officer his gun in his holster by bending over the the left.

          This rates right up there in the “I forgot my own lies” dept. with “I was getting my head mounded on the sidewalk, he was smothering me by holding my mouth……and my nose…..he was punching me in the face about….oh, lets say…..35 times and had something in his hands because the blows were so hard”

          Yep……take your pick.

      • ay2z says:

        Seems to me that the only thing important about the stories, is that the truth does not exist in any of them, he ‘doesn’t know’ what to say except it can’t be what really happened and his default was ‘don’t remember’, ‘don’t know’… ‘no’ (doesn’t hear the person in the backgroun on the 911 recording that changed to the oblique, ‘doesn’t even sound like me.’)

      • Xena says:

        GZ told Singleton that he holstered his gun after firing the shot. That story changed during the re-enactment.

  90. Deborah Moore says:

    Mr. Leatherman, you know that I’m a little late in paying attention to this case, so I’d like to ask something that probably everyone else knows. Where is George Zimmerman being held? Is it a jail? Is he segregated from the rest of the prisoners? Have there been any threats towards him? Thank you for helping me catch up.

    • He is out on a $1 million bond living at an undisclosed location in Seminole County. His travel is restricted to Seminole County, except to meet with his lawyer, whose office is in Orlando in Orange County.

      He has a curfew and his location is being monitored by a GPS ankle bracelet.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Thanks to you and BettyKath.
        Yes, now I remember.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Professor — following previous thread on bail, I think he’s out on 15%. At least $15,000 was what he posted for the first $150,000 bond before the potted palm episode that unseated Lester. That initial money was applied to whatever amount Fogen put up next to satisfy the new flight risk requirement.

      • abbyj says:

        Professor, Just curious about how easy it might be to elude an GPS ankle monitor. Are defendants able to escape from them? I ask because the money expenditures have never added up, by my calculations, and I have this nagging suspicious that the Good Wife SheLie has stashed some away in a safety deposit box with faux passports. And I’ve wondered whether the two of them might take a shot at jumping ship and fleeing to Peru. Just in the back of my mind. So, is there a way for monitored defendants to elude the ankle monitor, if they’re really intent on it? Thank you, Prof.

        • racerrodig says:

          Knowing what I know, he’ll have to elude the human monitors that are paid by the bail bondsman….that are just up the street from his “secure safe house” I have a customer / friend who’s dad is a cop in Deltona FL…..he’s asked me if I want to know what Fogen’s wearing tomorrow. He’s not going anywhere.!!!

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- I’ve been saying that for months!! There are one million reasons why GZ will not be able to make a waddle for it.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • bettykath says:


      When he was arrested he went to jail. He claimed, and his wife testified, that they had no money. On that basis he was given a low bail that was met and he was released. The court found out through jail recordings that their beg site had a Lot of money and that he had an extra passport. His wife was charged with perjury and his bail was revoked. Back to jail he went. He was then given a much higher bail and released again, this time with an GPS unit to track him. So he is free somewhere in the county. Only the GPS trackers know where. Well, maybe his wife also knows. He apparently goes out only after dark and when wearing a disguise b/c of all the threats he claims to have rec’d

  91. EdgySF says:

    Many thanks for this blog – I love it. Enduring a slight financial hardship this summer….

    Anyway, I’ve been chewing in something this morning….

    Has anyone come forward from Fogen’s time in Virginia?

    Friends, neighbors, class mates, teachers…what was he like, what did he do….play football, go to prom…?

    I’m not clear on the details of his background. In fact, it’s mostly a mystery.

    He’s apparently not a native to Sanford, or even Florida. And yet his family is plugged into Sanford’s powers that be.

    Did he leave Virgina because of trouble? Did his entire family relocate here? Why?

    My family moved here in 1971 for a job for my dad. That’s why I’m here.

    Had dad gotten a job here when I was in high school, I don’t think I would have left my friends, relatives, home town, etc., for a place I don’t know. I find Fogen strange…

    Since Fogen’s really an outsider to Florida’s culture, he might not get as much support from the jury as one might expect. Florida is different from Virginia. Racists exist everywhere, but like dialects, there are regional indicators.

    Seminole county is more than just Sanford. Heathrow, a few miles from Sanford, is a high tech hub…and AAA headquarters are located there. A lot of residents in Altamonte, Maitland, Lake Mary, Heathrow, etc, are transplants with high income jobs. The medical, tourist, restaurant (Darden HQ is here), and space industries are lucrative.

    • I have not seen any information about his time in Virginia, except that he graduated HS ranked 315 out of 317.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Wow! I guess he wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

      • Rachael says:

        Quite an accomplishment.


      • dianetrotter says:

        Rachael it’s not really and accomplishment. He failed at being last.

      • Malisha says:

        The only reason he graduated 315 out of 317 was that 316 and 317 weren’t paying attention. THEY had better things to do. I will bet that neither of them has murdered anybody!

        Once I met a constitutional law scholar who filed a brief in the Baby M case in NJ. He sat at our table during the luncheon after the keynote at a conference on the case in 1988. Brilliant guy. He had graduated third in his law school class. The salutatorian had been Sandra Day O’Connor I believe, and he came in third, so I naturally asked who had come in Valedictorian. He said “Oh that was so-and-so [forgot name] and he practices real estate law in a small town in Idaho.”

      • ay2z says:

        That’s GREAT isn’t it?? Came in second in a class of 317 !??


        • racerrodig says:

          And I’d bet 316 & 317 quit just before graduation making Fogen actually last. AND he spent those 7 + years failing to pass his college Criminal Justice class.

          Yes sir….a real class act.

      • LOL! And this idiot thinks he could handle law school? How embarrassing is it that it took him 9 years and he still hasn’t completed his Associates Degree? Just something else he lied to the police about since he told them he was now at UCF.

      • Rachael says:

        LOL – OMG, Diane, I’m laughing so hard. You are right. He couldn’t even succeed at coming in last. But damn he was close. LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          And he even fails at failing by having a Graduation Party knowing he didn’t pass…….we have names in the real world for people like that.

    • Malisha says:

      Daddy was a magistrate and mommy was a clerk in the courthouse in Manassas, VA, the heart of corruption county. Fogen was “victim” in some kind of physical fight, presumably with other individuals who were either arrested for it or perhaps NOBODY was arrested for it. There was a dysfunctional family thing going on and neighbors DID comment that the Fogen brothers were not allowed to go out and pay with other kids. That is, probably either the parents considered THEIR boys superior to the other kids in the neighborhod (who knows, maybe they were Mexicans?) or that family is such a closed system that the boys were required to stay within it nearly all the time. There was NO MENTION of boy scouts, high school hobbies or that kind of thing. Apparently Fogen claimed at one point that he was moving to Florida to work for an uncle who had a million-dollar business.

      Frankly, I think the whole family soiled its nest there in Manassas and they relocated to somewhere (perhaps drawn by the fact that Wolfinger and Senior were buddies) where they could be big unknown fish in a little controllable pond.

      • Rachael says:

        He was once an altar boy.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I have wondered since the cousins molestation claims if perhaps the killers parents KNEW that there was something VERY wrong with Fogen…. and they knew he couldn’t be trusted not to harm other children….

    • Trained Observer says:

      Good morning EdgySF:

      If you can stand it (barf) and if you can sort truth from lies (not easy), PopsZ has offered insights on his website, as has Joonyar with his incessant babble.

      Seminole County is viewed as a retirement haven for many, and Fogen’s parents bought property there before they left their jobs in Virginia. Fogen came down to live in and look after the place while they were still toiling away up north. Was Fogen in trouble up there? Don’t know.

      PopsZ has mentioned that Fogen served in the Young Marines, or some such in high school. After graduation at the very bottom of his class, Fogen he either lost interest … or maybe the U.S. Marine Corps didn’t want him. Fancy that!

      Still hazy, but it’s looking like Fogen’s Pop and Norm Wolfinger, Seminole County State Attorney when the shooting happened, have a long-time relationshiip dating back to Vietnam military service days. It’s been said that Pops is a godfather to one of Wolfie’s kids. One thing is for sure: Wolfinger was on top of the shooting (where no arrest was made) from the get-go. Weeks later, when things started heating up, Wolfinger suddenly found a need to recuse himself from the case and his letter to Gov. Rick Scott (presumably explaining it all) has been sealed. Wolfinger later opted out of running for re-election.

      On Fogen’s character, one of the great sidebar highlights centers on how he turned the power off and locked the box on his mom Gladazz at the Florida house, apparently after he moved out, or was kicked out. Don’t know how the sister and brother ended up in Florida, but apparently the Fogens travel in a pack. Virginia’s gain in getting rid of them is Florida’s loss, especially when it comes to having this family of lying hyenas clog up the legal system.

      I don’t think the jury will look askance at his lack of longevity in the state. Most everybody down here is from somewhere else.

      • Lynn says:

        In Florida’s lovely open info I found that Mom and Pop’s house was originally bought with their names and George’s. Not Gracie, not Junior. Then a quick-claim deed was done to eliminate GZ from the deed. This was done before he locked the electric box, if I’m not mistaken. Strange family. Did GZ take his name off to qualify for assistance or student loans maybe? Or maybe his family hated him. He IS the most hated man in America 😉

      • Trained Observer says:

        Lynn — Could be George’s name was on so the property could fall under Florida’s Homestead exemption. That started in ’92 or so and prevents property taxes from going up more than 3% per year on a homestead no matter how much appreciation occurs. The parents couldn’t qualify for that if employed and officially living elsewhere. By being a Florida resident with no other homesteaded property, Fogen could have been their key to big tax savings.

        Don’t know why they removed him from deed — but I bet we all could count thy ways. Who among us would want to share a deed or car title or even a cup of coffee with the likes of Fogen?

      • Sleuth says:


        I also noticed the quick claim deed transaction, but wondered if it was due to his run ins with the law, i.e. assault on ATF/LEO’s, restraining order against him, etc..

        Seems like his parents sent him to Florida shortly after he was an alleged victim of a minor assault in 2001, but he was not listed as a victim or an offender according Sgt. Eddie Rivera. I have not been able to locate any proof of the alleged assault outside of a news report.

        IIRC, during the first bond hearing, while testifying by phone, his parents told the courts the confessed murderer had been previously assaulted by 2 AA guys.

        He also wrote in his high school yearbook, “I’m going to Florida to work with my godfather who just bought $1 million business”.

    • LeaNder says:

      EdgySF,, his family seems to have spent holidays there. They also had family there. His parents intended to move there after retirement and already had bought the house. On this site he claimed to intend to work with an uncle who had an business there, he may in fact have done. And he lived in the house his parents bought for a while with his earlier girl friend, I think.

      I hope defense will make it without Owen and Reich. I cannot really say, I am surprised. Let’s see what the prof from his college has to tell.

  92. IMBack says:

    Has there been a ruling on the Frye issue?

      • two sides to a story says:

        Professor – how will this (the prosecution experts not being allowed to testify at trial) affect the prosecution case?

    • Big Willie says:

      WKMG is reporting the defense won Frye hearing.

      • Big Willie says:

        George Zimmerman defense wins Frye Hearing excluding state voice experts
        Story posted 2013.06.22 at 10:42 AM EDT

        Judge Debra Nelson ruled on Saturday morning the state’s voice experts won’t be allowed to testify in George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.
        [READ: Ruling issued]
        The ruling came following arguments and expert testimony from both sides about whether voice experts could tell who was screaming in the 911 call on the night Trayvon Martin was killed. The arguments happened during a Frye Hearing, which started back on June 8 but had to be carried over Thursday.
        The order does not prevent either side from playing the tapes to the jury and having other witnesses who know Martin’s and Zimmerman’s voice from saying whose voice they hear in the screams.
        But, the judge ruled, the state experts will not be allowed.
        “Reliable comparison of normal speech to the screams in the 911 call is not possible,” Nelson wrote, accepting the opinions of four defense experts.
        Opening statements begin on Monday and will be carried on Local 6 and ClickOrlando.com. Local 6 has learned attorney Don West will do the opening statements for Zimmerman’s team.

        Story posted 2013.06.22 at 10:42 AM EDT

        Copyright 2013 by ClickOrlando.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

      • Malisha says:

        Saying that particular sample wasn’t suitable for the purpose of analyzing it with the methods used does not mean that the methods used are not generally accepted within that discipline. The focus of the thing was off from the beginning! If the methods are OK, this is NOT supposed to be about the particular case or the particular samples! Wow what a mishtunk on the part of a very intelligent judge, not to be able to separate those two issues and concentrate on the one that is legally before the court! Makes me think something is rotten in the State of Denmark.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        You got that right. One thing I noticed from Nelson is that she doesn’t interfere into the process her self too often. If the state doesn’t object, she allows West to go where ever he pleases. That hearing was a mess. I think the prosecution should’ve done a better job in establishing the boundaries of this hearing.

        I also wonder if Nelson was afraid what would happen to the length of the trial if it was allowed in. We know we would’ve seen the same if not worse spectacle we saw during the Frye hearing.
        The jury may have been so bored, angry and confused, that maybe it wouldn’t have helped the prosecution that much.

        I am still pissed though.

      • ay2z says:

        Wow, Judge Nelson just simplified the case, didn’t she?!!

        How does this effect the state? ‘help me help’ in a lower voice could mean another speaker, but if there were a third person in the group, Trayvon could have been saying ‘help me’ to someone nearby, and fogen took that for his own.

        Will surely be interesting to follow. Does the defense have the right to bring it up by offering anything parallel and new?

      • Xena says:

        Everyone can hear “I’m begging you.” GZ never said he yelled anything other than “help” and “help me.”

        Let’s remember that before the State revealed there are two voices in the background and before the newspapers reported having experts that ruled out it’s GZ’s voice, we already believed the logical conclusion that the gunshot ended the screams of the person who was crying out.

        The State still has lots of avenues to support it was Trayvon screaming, among them, that GZ said he was being smothered before taking the shot.

      • LeaNder says:

        Malisha, I have to admit that I was expecting this. She really had no choice. I also have to admit that I gave up hope already when I read the FBI interview.

      • LeaNder says:

        ooops, not interview but report, Dr. Nakasone’s, I meant.

  93. An off-topic note to folks who will be receiving art supplies: We are planning to ship next Wednesday.

    Back to scheduled programming…

  94. Very quickly to the individual who is currently pending moderation: I believe the answer may be in the paramedic’s report, which in the aftermath of the shooting noted GZ’s vital signs to be within normal limits.

    With that language, the paramedic documented nothing extraordinary or unusual about 1.) the number of breaths per minute 2.) pulse, ie: heart rate in terms of heartbeats each minute and 3.) the blood pressure, which includes a systolic and diastolic reading.

    • Also the witness Jon, who supplied the medical kit and the plastc bag the officers used to plug the wound when they administered CPR, specifically described the defendant as calm and collected when he admitted shooting Trayvon.

      • EdgySF says:

        Doesn’t quite match the intensity of the screaming, no?

      • two sides to a story says:

        Anyone screaming like that would have elevated vitals.

      • racerrodig says:

        Yep…..and that’s one more thing that makes it time to suck to be Fogen. Evidence, facts, lies, witnesses, forensics, lies, DNA, the law, lies, money laundering, perjury, lies, family (hahahaha) involvement, SheLie……..did I mentions his lies??

      • abbyj says:

        Racer, super list. Did you mention all the lies? I think you forgot to mention the lies, like when GZ says the words “and” and “the.” God, you made me laugh.

        • racerrodig says:

          I don’t know how many words have been written on this murder, probably trillions, don’t know how many sentences…..in the billions, but we do know that Fogen has only said a few things we know to be true….

          1) “…oh shit, he’s running”
          2) (he’s heading) “…towards the back entrance”
          3) “….then I got out of my schruck..”
          4) “….I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot”

          That’s pretty much all he’s said that we can’t argue……and I’ll add

          5) “..my wife is a mess..” Ain’t that the truth…..how is she since the murder ???????

          Pretty slim considering he talks so much. Now Robbie the Racist is spouting off about the “terror” they faced after the murder.

          Note to Robbie the Racist and all Zidiots : Think about the terror Fogen caused to Trayvon…..who did nothing but try to get home.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I agree with your comment 1000%.

      • nocamo33 says:

        To racerrodig: what about his lies? You forgot to mention those! ;p

  95. Nellie Nell says:

    OK, so I am wrong, I can see that he is wearing the jacket in the photo when he made the phone call. Yet, there is something about the jacket that escapes me. I will lose focus of the jacket.

    I am just so sick of the defense team and all the slick tricks they have been trying to pull just like their client and his family!

    • LLMPapa says:

      I saw your comment on the other thread, and I don’t know that you’re wrong. It doesn’t take but a split second to come in or out of that jacket,

      Besides Zimmerman’s reference to “lifting his SHIRT” which I pointed out in the first vid, I’ve got another reason that makes me wonder if he had the jacket on.

      In my younger years, I was no stranger to a fight. There’s no way I would want to duke it out in a snug, form fitting jacket like his chunky azz supposedly had on. Common sense tells you it would tend to restrict your ability to move.

      I see it as entirely possible he was NOT wearing the jacket when the action was taking place.

      I believe not one word he says.

      • Rachael says:

        A witness saw a white shirt.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I agree with you about him not wearing the jacket. I think it came off while Trayvon was fighting for his life.

      • two sides to a story says:

        It’s a stretchy jacket though. I have one very much like it. I doubt he took it off in the rain.

      • racerrodig says:

        I don’t buy one syllable he says either, but I beliee he gets caught up in the here and now and is incapable of staying with any past facts or lies. He’s shown that only God knows how many times. In your clips, where he bends sideways to the left a bit and says here’s my gun….he does it because THAT DAY, at the “..rehearsal…” he’s wearing the Izod shirt. I would bet the farm he simply used the available prop…..because he’s FuckingFogenPhoole and expects everybody will just buy his latest line of crap.

        If he had been wearing a leather Bikes vest on 2/26 he’s still have said (bend to the left) “here’s my gun….under my shirt”
        If he’d have been wearing coveralls on 2/26, he’d have said the same thing…..he’s Fogen…..’nuff said on the IQ part.

      • ay2z says:

        Yes, that’s the other scenario about a lighter shirt, light grey.

        Not one word…. that makes trying to make sense of his string of pearls, a lost cause.

  96. Rachael says:

    There is something about the second one that really bothers me about that story. GZ shot, but he didn’t know he hit Trayvon. So when he fell over, instead of checking to see why he fell over and if he’s okay, he decides Travyon needs to be restrained. Yet the police officer comes along and says, “Who shot him?” He seems to know Trayvon was shot. Why didn’t GZ check to see if he was okay, why didn’t GZ render aid? There is really something missing. I mean I understand totally that he was only concerned with saving his sorry ass (his idea of self-defense) by making it look like there was a struggle and asking someome to “help” him (restrain a dead man) to cover up that he had been looking for a weapon (which I’m sure he was very upset that he didn’t find because that sure would have helped his “self-defense” claim), but he says he didn’t know he “hit” him, but when the police officer comes, he asks who “shot” him and he answers he did?

    I know I’m not saying this right or articulating exactly what is bothering me, but there is something SO wrong with this “story.” I mean besides what LLMPapa points out. Let me finish my coffee and I might be able to explain it better but there is something wrong here, very bad wrong.

    • I think you may be troubled by the implications that flow from his statement to the police in which he denied knowing that Trayvon was dead until the police told him at the station house.

      Does that help focus your mind on what is troubling you?

      • Rachael says:

        But at what point did he know he shot him and what did he do about it? I think there is something there that is troubling me. He obviously checked to see if Trayvon was armed, he wanted to restrain him and even get someone to help restrain him, but at what point did he check to see if he “hit” “got” whatever and try to get help for a shot Trayvon rather than help for him with restraining him? I mean how long did it take to realise he had actually shot him and why didn’t he do CPR or scream for help – help as in medical help – like call an ambulance?

        I mean this story shows me he was’t concerned with anything but his own story and trying to find a way to make it “believable” as self-defense and trying to drag someone else into it. Like he knew that Trayvon was shot and wasn’t going to do anything. He had already checked for weapons (hoping to find Trayvon armed and disappointed, I’m sure, that he wasn’t – but speculation on my part, I’m sure) but continuing to make it seem he was “dangerous” rather than rendering or calling for aid.

        I’m still only halfway through my coffee.

      • LLMPapa says:

        Rachael says:
        June 22, 2013 at 8:12 am

        But at what point did he know he shot him and what did he do about it? I think there is something there that is troubling me.

        Well, he certainly knew he had shot him because he supposedly asked W13 to call his wife and tell her he shot someone.

        I think there is MUCH we don’t know, at this point, regarding AFTER the shot. But not to fear, my friend, BDLR’s got it covered.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hi BahamaMama!

        Just a note to you: I imagine that young, legal assistant (with black hair) who was sitting behind O’Mara and West at times (in the formal court area when the tables are perpendicular to the audience)…………to be the “ric” type, if not actually ric.

      • Ms.X says:

        Rachel, What troubles you is the reason the state decided to charge him with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter: Depraved indifference to human life/safety. You can’t imagine someone not being upset over taking a life, accidentally or deliberately, because you are normal. gz is obviously a sociopath who has shown zero remorse & who smirked on national tv & said he would do it all again the exact same way. He shot Trayvon at point blank range while he was begging for his life, KNOWING the police were on their way. An eye witness said after the gunshot, she saw the living figure get off of the dead person. Then the guy who came out with the flash light testified how (paraphrasing here) shocked he was that gz just killed a person and was so calm & non-chalant about having done so. I even recall an interview w/ gz where he was saying that his psychiatrist was freaked out that he killed a person & was telling him that this is a big deal (because gz didn’t really get that). The reason you are upset is the reason hundreds of thousands of people are upset across the country. Most normal people can’t wrap their heads around gz’s casual, uncaring, depraved attitude about killing a kid.

      • BahamaMama says:

        Hi YAHTC, I’ll keep my eyes open for the ric character, lol. BTW, I’m delighted to see an all woman jury. They will be able to wade through the nonsense and convict gz with the evidence at hand.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I remember him saying that he didn’t know that Trayvon was dead until after they told him at the station house. I have a few questions about this. How was Trayvon Martin able to talk when the ME report says that the bullet punctured both lungs and lodged into the heart? The puncturing of both lungs is a pneumothorax. It is really painful. Catching breath would be hard (nearly impossible). A bullet to the heart does not stop the heart from trying to beat immediately. So the heart would be pushing blood in to the pleural cavity at a high rate. Almost like drowning. My point is the pain and mechanics of Trayvon’s injury would have made it very unlikely for him to speak after the incident let alone struggle with someone. This has always bothered me.

        Furthermore, it took the police a couple more minutes to get there. Witnesses say GZ was walking around. So how did he not know he killed Trayvon? I am clearly missing something.

      • Nef05 says:


        but he says he didn’t know he “hit” him, but when the police officer comes, he asks who “shot” him and he answers he did?

        He did know. He knew from the moment he “aimed” and pulled the trigger, that he shot Trayvon, that’s why it doesn’t make any sense. GZ frequently lets his inherent knowledge slip into his conversations and gestures, giving away that which he’d rather conceal. Lies and manipulation are a part of the pathology of a sociopath.

        As for why he didn’t call for help – I speculate that it’s because he simply didn’t care. Remember in fogen’s world, everything is about him. Trayvon was simply a means to an end. Collateral damage, if you will, on fogen’s rise to greatness, and as such he didn’t deserve a second thought other than how he could be manipulated to assist (posthumously) in furthering fogen’s agenda which was:
        1. Being the “hero”, because after all, that was his purpose from the beginning. You can’t call for medical assistance and put Trayvon front and center into the spotlight. It defeats the purpose. Besides who cares about another dead, black “suspect”? This is all about HIM, and he never for a second considered Trayvon.

        2.Claiming self defense, because Heros aren’t murderers.

        Why didn’t GZ check to see if he was okay, why didn’t GZ render aid? There is really something missing.

        Yes, there is. What’s missing is empathy, conscience and the understanding that you have to live by the same rules as everyone else- the hallmarks of a sociopath.

        (IMO) It’s difficult for us to get our heads around it because we don’t lack those qualities, so it is difficult to understand, because even had someone WITH those qualities shot Trayvon, they would have probably have done what you said – checked him, attempted to render aid or at least summon medical assistance (like the TX dad who beat to death the perv who had his 4 yr old in the bushes, half dressed, but nevertheless called 911 and attempted to get him medical help). Those thoughts never occurred to fogen. They’re simply “absent”. That fogen didn’t do those things is more evidence of his psychopathy and, for the prosecution, evidence of “depraved mind regardless of human life”.

      • Nef05 says:


        I even recall an interview w/ gz where he was saying that his psychiatrist was freaked out that he killed a person & was telling him that this is a big deal (because gz didn’t really get that).

        I would really, really, REALLY like to see that. Was it an article interview or a TV interview? Can you remember the media outlet or post a link? Even just pointing me in the right direction would be ever so helpful. TIA

      • towerflower says:

        Rachael, In his video interview with the detective that does his stress test, he explains how he had to take careful aim so as not to shot his left hand. The detective asked him a question about the aim and he responded that “I knew I was on him.”

        There is no doubt in my mind that he knew right away that he shot TM.

      • Malisha says:

        Nef, it’s when Singleton is waiting in a room with Fogen before Fogen’s “voice-stress test” with Erwin. Singleton just sits there and Fogen rambles. He says “My wife is a mess” and he says he went to the doctor because work said he couldn’t come back to work until he got a clearance and he says he avoids going to doctors because of money and insurance and he says when he was with his psychologist it “really” hit him what had happened (still doesn’t mention what happened to Trayvon MARTIN, just general what happened kind of thing) and he observes that Singleton has never “had to shoot somebody” because nobody would question her authority. Tacitly he admits he shot Trayvon because Trayvon questioned his authority.

      • ladystclaire says:

        What does ric character mean? I think you are referencing to the AA woman, sitting behind the defense.

        • BahamaMama says:

          @ladystclaire, the “ric character” is a ridiculous poster over on Newsvine that YouAllHaveThoughtfulComments and I have been dealing with for the last year and a half. We think he must be part of the defense team as he gets really wordy and defensive in his defense of GZ. YAHTC thinks she sees him or someone like we imagine him, sitting behind defense. Lol.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Malisha – Thank you. I must have become so focused on the “authoriteh” issue, I forgot what came before. It’s a good time for me to go back and review.

      • ay2z says:

        When I first heard him say that, it left me speechless with an ache in my stomach and horror in my mind when I realized the implications of what he said.

      • Sleuth says:


        Regarding the link I just posted to you, IIRC, information O’Dirty posted to his website contradicts what his clients doctor (physician assistant) said.

        The PA said he didn’t need stitches and suffered no head trauma. Even the confessed murderer knew his injuries were so minor, he even asked the PA for a note to return to work the next day.

        I guess that throws “The Shaken Baby Syndrome” and “He almost needed to be spoon fed” theories out the window.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Thank you Bahamamama. BTW, have you guys noticed Fogen’s ring finger in the above Papa videos? the defense is having him wear a wedding ring as if that’s going to make a difference. I don’t care how much they dress this HOG up for cause and effect, he is still who he is.

      • Sleuth says:


        You are so right. I just posted a comment yesterday, or day before, about her and the others. I referred to them as “The Robert Palmer Girls”.

        Since the start of jury selection I noticed that O’Dirty was occasionally going over to where they were. He was the only one from the defense team going over there, and would sometimes look at her computer screen.

        Then I noticed, just before he outted PJ E-7, he went to her and she gave him a piece of paper which he eventually gave to the judge who read E-7’s FB posting out loud.

        He did the same exact thing when he outted PJ E-22, the church administrator, calling out the name of her church. And again to PJ M-75, mentioning she had friended West Robinson as a FB friend.

        With each of these two he went over to the AA woman who was seated at the table with 2 white females, was handed a piece of paper that he handed over to the judge.

        I think it is possible that these pj’s had some type of online interaction with Joonya and other members of the wannabe gang and turned their usernames over to the defense.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @ Professor Leatherman.

        Re: “By the way, was his statement to the person he called on his cell phone another ‘spontaneous” utterance?’

        As long as you are spillin’ the beans, why don’t you tell us who he called and what he said.”

        Attorney West, in addition, tell us WHAT ADVICE ZIMMERMAN GOT from the guy he called!

    • YQ says:

      I get what you’re saying. In the interrogation, he said that he “aimed and then shot”, only to not know if he hit the kid EVEN THOUGH the kid said, “You got it”, or “you got me”. Then he tackled the hid and placed him on his stomach to see if he had a weapon. There was no point that he mentioned he DID realize he shot the kid until the cop asked. I hope BDLR was paying attention. Plus add what Mary Cutcher stated about the restraining part…

      • shyloh says:

        What I would also like to know is when did he put his gun back in his holster, and why, if he needed help restraining him? Wouldn’t a loaded gun aiming at him (Travon) be good enough to restrain him?

      • towerflower says:

        This is the video interview for his stress test At the :43 minute mark he starts to talk about the gun. At the :44 min mark he is talking about the aiming as to not hit his left hand. At the :45 minute mark, after questioning by the detective about the position and aim of the gun he say “I was on him, I knew I…”

        He knew he shot TM, he knew he did not miss him. I also believe that he knew that TM was dead after his quick pat down of his body hoping to find a weapon on him.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Depends on which interview. In his first interview with Singleton, he said he holstered the gun right after he shot Trayvon and then he got on top of him. The following day he changed that to getting on top of Trayvon, while still holding his gun.

      • ladystclaire says:

        This man is really filling this fool up by saying things he wants to hear. For instance, he’s telling him how banged up he looks.

      • ay2z says:

        shyloh, he turned and walked away, whatever else he did, he did that by one good witness account, he got on his phone, but one other good witness account, the photographer of the bloody head.

        And there’s the phone records, that we know now include a whole bunchload of formats including texts.

      • nocamo33 says:

        He had to have seen the yellow sheet they placed over his body!! Yet the right (and I am no leftist) insist there is no evidence and that NBC and Obama and Sharpton and Trayvon conspired to make this a sensationalized event. It is a murder case short and simple. With one suspect who makes documented “misstatements” and “self-serving” commeents to hide the fact that he did something very, very wrong…

    • BahamaMama says:

      Remember the two woman roommates saw GZ pacing back and forth rubbing his forehead over by the body? When was that? I believe that was BEFORE witness 13 got out there.
      Also, who cares if GZ yelled for help? He’s not the one begging for his life in the 911 call, that is Trayvon. There are witnesses saying there were two people calling for help. One begging for his life and one calling to help him with his “catch”,
      I think West is hoping to keep GZ off the stand by making this filing part of the record.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hi BahamaMama!

        Just a note to you: I imagine that young, legal assistant (with black hair) who was sitting behind O’Mara and West at times (in the formal court area when the tables are perpendicular to the audience)…………to be the “ric” type, if not actually ric.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        You can see the person I am talking about at timestamp 7:48 at the right of the screen.

      • bettykath says:

        “Remember the two woman roommates saw GZ pacing back and forth rubbing his forehead over by the body? ”

        Yes, this is when he was dealing with the hurt to his nose from the recoil of the gun. He asked about blood on his face b/c the gun made a couple of pin pricks on the end of his nose. That recoil must have hurt and he finally had injuries to claim.

      • ladystclaire says:

        How in the hilly haystack, can he still be seeking sancations against the state, after what he did. He presented false evidence and did so knowing that it wasn’t the truth.

      • Sleuth says:


        Last April (2012) I came to that same conclusion about his injuries, which to me were confirmed with the forensics evidence dump.

        The State may not be able to prove they were due to kick back, but they already know they were self inflicted or he had help.

        I’ve always felt they were due to kick back. Happens so often, and would be easy to diagnose, that’s why he refused 3x to be taken to the emergency room.

        The only other cause I can think of is that witness #6 hit him in the head in an attempt to get him off of Trayvon.

      • Sophia33 says:

        What is ric?

    • Rob says:

      @Rachael i think what’s missing is the shirt is light grey and one witness stated the one with the white shirt was on top, how could you lift your shirt up to see the gun when you had that oversized jacket on? and why would your first instinct would be to take a picture of a head with blood flowing, plus is there any blood on his jacket?

      • towerflower says:

        There is blood on his jacket, his own and a couple of spots of TM’s.

      • ay2z says:

        Rob, we also heard a witness say there was a ‘black man standing over him (the person on the ground)’ in that caller’s own 911 call, but by then, the police had arrived and it was obvious that the black person standing over Trayvon,.

        Two thoughts might be another third person, and the time of the sighting, confused by the observer, a memory that stuck out as one person on top of the other and a false assumption made about the time it was seen.

        But then a more nefarious version, another person involved.

        Finally, what if the killer rolled the victim over, to position him facing down in support of the story of who was on top, and the assumptions that flow (falsely or otherwise) from that?

        Trayvon had what might be described as ‘white’ pants, at least compared to the surroundings and the other clothing worn. Someone may have seen those legs moving as fogen rolled him over.

        (btw, rolling an injuried person over in this way, if he didn’t know he was ‘on’ him for the hollow point kill, was nothing less than heinous act of cruelty and depravity of mind is not a big enough concept for describing the actions of George Michael Zimmerman thatevening of Feb 26th, 2013.).

      • ay2z says:

        …. cut out a part, sorry….

        ” obvious that the black person standing over Trayvon, was a first responder.”

      • Sleuth says:


        I think the person some witnesses stated had on a white shirt/t-shirt was witness #6. I believe it’s possible witness #6 hit the confessed murderer on the head.

      • LeaNder says:

        I think the person some witnesses stated had on a white shirt/t-shirt was witness #6.

        Yes if you divide it by two: 6/2=3.

      • Sleuth says:


        Witness #5, Mary Crutcher, initally told the 911 dispatcher the person who did the shooting was black. However, she was relaying what someone in her household told her.

        It wasn’t until she went outside did she find out the victim was black, and the murderer, hispanic. IOW, she misspoke, but eventually corrected her statement.

        I’m sure O’Dirty will try his best to rip her testimony apart.

      • Sleuth says:


        You caught me! So now you know math is obvious not my strong suit. 🙂

    • elcymoo says:

      I think we discussed quite a while back that GZ might have been frantically looking for the bullet, because if it had gone into the ground, it would have proved his lies about his position when he fired that bullet into Trayvon’s chest, at contact range, being very careful not to hit his other hand. It was just his good luck that the hollow point bullet that wrecked the teenager’s heart and lungs never exited the body.

      • towerflower says:

        I think he was frantically looking for a weapon. He knew that if TM was found with a weapon on him than he would be walking with little to no explanations. After all he was an AA teen, up to no good, on drugs, and not acting right so he had to be armed……after all he is always right in his perceptions. It never crossed his mind that it could be an innocent teen, just walking home from the store.

      • Malisha says:

        Towerflower, I believe Fogen knew absolutely that Trayvon had no weapon, by the time he had shot the kid. I believe he had his own weapon drawn well before the shot was fired and I believe it was obvious that he had an unarmed kid at gunpoint. I don’t think he was looking for ANYTHING when he was on top of Trayvon; I think he gave that story to cover for the fact that he realized Mary and Selma saw him on top and he did not think he could make them lie for him.

      • racerrodig says:

        “…GZ might have been frantically looking for the bullet, because if it had gone into the ground, it would have proved his lies about his position…”

        BINGO !!

        The oldest story in the book with shooters. This is one reason hollow points are illegal in NJ and some other states. The other being thay are not as lethal. It is a depraved mind who needs to make sure they have the most deadly ammo possible.

        • ic2fools says:

          Hi racer!

          earlier reading my email, i saw a post by ‘racerrodigeedister’ about fogen sr book.

          darn i deleted it from my email, i knew something was fishy about that. you’ll tell us when you change your profile pic, i’m quite sure you would have told us if you had changed your profile name.

          there is a troll playing games with your name! dirty azz troll.

          • racerrodig says:

            So I guess I rate the hate by the Zidiot Nation….Gee, Imagine that !

          • ic2fools says:

            it looks like you do buddy. they been out after you since back when we was on HP. you got yourself a real bonafide stalker.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s okay…they can’t hurt steel & I know they hated it when I said “Trayvon could have been my son”

            Note to all Zidiots…..”Bring It”

          • ic2fools says:

            you got that right racer
            next week is going to start out fast and furious.

          • racerrodig says:

            I believe Bernie will be wheel standing all over The Moron Man and his “unflappable” sidekick West. I had a real hard time in the beginning of jury selection, but I think the worst that could happen to Fogen did……6 women……no White NRA life members, nobody named “Sundance Crackpot” Nooooooo Sir. 5 moms and I think they will see through the BS.

            It would take a reporter from the OS to confuse “unflappable” with ignorant, pig headed, moronic besides being a sore loser who has a loser for a client……just sayin’…

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- I love you, man! Yes, Trayvon could have any of our sons. (Well maybe not me cuz all my sons have 4 paws). But he could be ANYBODY we love. Nobody should fear walking home while black, Hispanic, gay, young, old, female or a young black kid. You are a true Trayvon Warrior!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            I sincerely appreciate that…You have been a true warrior as well as all of those who have “Stood Your Ground” and stood beside Trayvon’s family.

            He could have been any of our son, anyone’s son. White, Black, Yellow, Green, Pink, Purple, Red, Blue……no matter, we are all part of the same race and these Bigots, Zidiots, Racists and whatever else they may be better catch up and get with the program.

            I also appreciate this safe zone provided by The Esteemed Professor and the education I’ve gotten…….

            To the Hunt !!

            Hoodies Up ~ Skittles Held High ~ And pass the Arizona Iced Tea…

            III> Tick ~ Tock & Clankety Clank III< Time's about up Fogen.

      • Sleuth says:


        While thats possible, I don’t think it is likely. I just don’t think he would have confronted, followed, or stalked Trayvon if he really thought he was packing heat or carrying any type of weapon. But then again, this is a sociopathic person we’re talking about, and anything is possible. jmho

      • ic2fools says:

        Racer, Bernie will giving O’mar a legal spanking, daily. O’mar has been whining ‘Judge I still don’t have everythng from the State’., had a emotional tantrum filed motions against. And failed.

        Friday, one of the last statements Omar said was ‘Judge we still don’t have everything from the State’ looked down and walked away.

        There is absolutely nothing left for Omar to receive from the State except the rest of Owens report. Damn why the heck is and what would he need it for now.

        Judge Deborah told him when he started whining ‘get to the point and ‘what is it you want’?

        All that fool Omar wants and has ever wanted from the beginning is for Bernie to give him a step by step guide detailing how the State plans to present their case against Fidget sittin in a lil chair Fogen.

        Never in my life have I ever seen an attorney in court cry and actually fight to get another attorneys work product and cry foul because he didn’t do his own work.

        Judge Deborah started spankin Omars’ behind Friday right towards Bernie to finish spankin Omars disrespectfu, unethical, emotionally irresponsibility lying ass.

        Brother, let me tell you OS thinks and Zporters that how West acts in Court is acceptable. They are truly delusioned, they will be surley loose if they will hire him and Omar to represent them.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep !! Confusing “unflappable” with pig headed moronic Zidiocy is always a bad move. Those of us that followed this from the beginning, and I know you’re one of them, have said The Moron Man is just plain out of his gourd…..then West quit his job and jumped on board for this ass licking……!!

          I can see Bernie doing burn outs all over their feet…clear as a bell.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Rachael — Much of our confusion comes from Fogen’s stacked up lies. When lifting a button to take aim, how can Fogen claim “not knowing” if he’d hit Trayvon? Did he think the bullet made a quick right turn at Maple Street and Lincoln Avenue?

      ALSO OFFENSIVE: Fogen’s claims that “no one would help me,” reiterated by West in the document cited above.

      What, exactly, does the defense think those 911 calls were about? Can that not be classified as residents seeking help to stop the fracas outside their homes?

      Of course what Fogen meant, was that no one came to help him bag his target — a lie designed to both:

      A) promote himself as a lone ranger hero who handled it all by his widdle self.

      B) protect his multiple accomplices on the scene.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Trained Observer

        I agree that it is very confusing and done deliberately by the confessed murderer in a pathetic attempt to cover his lies.

        Now, this is just a theory:

        Sleuth says:
        June 21, 2013 at 10:34 pm

        Or Jonhny boy (witness #6) bust him upside his big azz head in order to get him off of Trayvon, then ran back inside.

        Just meditate on his bullshyte line:

        “I yelled for help, but NOBODY (hint: is John) WOULD come and HELP ME” (remember, it’s all about him).

        And in the so called re-enactment video, as he states this same bullshyte as he turns slightly backwards, to the right, and points in the direction of John’s back door/patio door.

        He also said someone came out and asked if he needed them to call 911. And he told them, “No, I’ve already called them, JUST HELP ME hold this guy down”, or something to that effect. If true, this indicates SOMEBODY DID come to help him. So, again he lied.

        He either received help or he didn’t.

        John is: Nobody Would
        Me is: The confessed murder

        Jeremy is: Somebody Did

        But again, it’s just a theory of mine.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Sleuth — I think your theory, or a variation thereof, has merit. That “Jeremy, get in here ” directive picked up on the 911 call definitely didn’t mean that Jeremy was safe in the downstairs can sitting on the john.

    • two sides to a story says:

      @Rachael – Such a big disconnect in Fogen’s mind about harming others. He has to be sociopathic or have some sort of personality disorder or borderline personality disorder.

      • ay2z says:

        That may be why Bernie didn’t push toooo hard to move E6 when he knew she recognized the court’s own Dr. Jeff D.

        MOM protested too much yesterday for the record, about not wanting to have opening statements with statements about evidence that will never come in, and got Judge Nelson to lay it out for the record, what she expects.

        MOM has a clear shot at saying things in opening, and later, not back it up because of a change of situation. He could say things then not put on a defense, period, and never back up anything he suggests.

    • abbyj says:

      Even with half a cup of coffee in you, Rachel, you make plenty of sense. There was no effort at all on GZ’s part to render any human aid to a kid who may have been critically wounded–and who, in fact was critically wounded. GZ’s thoughts never turned once to concern for Trayvon’s life.

      Yes, GZ was only driven to save his sorry ass. In fact, after he shot Trayvon through the chest, GZ then climbed his big bouncer ass on top of Trayvon’s skinny body, squashed this kid with his full weight, and spread out his hands? Why did he spread out Trayvon’s hands? To complete the narrative of “self defense” for himself? All of these acts taken together not only depict a killer intent on establishing self defense for HIMSELF, but one with depraved indifference to human life.

      I’m working on my coffee here, too, in CA, and you make plenty of sense. GZ has ice water running through his veins.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        And yet…. Trayvon’s hands were found UNDER his body…. so even that “story” of the killers is suspect to scrutiny…. the killer is a pathological liar…NOTHING he says should be believed….NOTHING

      • abbyj1 says:

        @tinytruthseeker, Great question as to why Trayvon’s hands were found under his body. We don’t have the full story of what Fogen was doing with Trayvon’s body. Something feels creepy and sinister about the way Fogen was manipulating Trayvon’s body: sitting on Trayvon’s body, playing with Trayvon’s hands, rolling the body over, putting Trayvon’s hands underneath his chest. Something very weird and psycho-necro was being played out, IMO, and I would gladly hear anyone else’s thoughts on this.

    • Xena says:

      @Rachael. Lies never make sense. GZ told so many lies that it becomes bothersome trying to determine what is truth. It is better to eliminate the lies.

      Most important lie to be eliminated is that he jumped on Trayvon’s back to spread his arms apart. Let’s not separate those actions. We know he got on Trayvon’s back, but we also know he did not spread out Trayvon’s arms. Trayvon’s body was found with his hands underneath him. His right hand evidenced his own blood from the gunshot wound.

      Why would GZ lie about that? Maybe because Trayvon was face-up when or after being shot, and GZ’s first self-serving reaction to cover his story about Trayvon being on top would be to place his body face-down.

      Why lie about spreading out Trayvon’s arms? It was a CYA in the event GZ’s DNA appeared on Trayvon’s wrists as GZ conducted take-down maneuvers.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        Re: “Why would GZ lie about that? Maybe because Trayvon was face-up when or after being shot, and GZ’s first self-serving reaction to cover his story about Trayvon being on top would be to place his body face-down.

        Why lie about spreading out Trayvon’s arms? It was a CYA in the event GZ’s DNA appeared on Trayvon’s wrists as GZ conducted take-down maneuvers.”

        Repeat: “GZ’s first self-serving reaction to cover his story about Trayvon being on top would be to place his body face-down … ”

        You are 1,000% correct, Sister!

  97. Deborah Moore says:

    They do!
    There’s so much reading and watching this morning.
    I guess I’d better make some coffee.
    Thank you so much for this, Fred and Rachael.

    • You and @Rachael are very kind. This blog would not exist without readers. We are very grateful to our readers.

      (I wish I’d had an LLMPapa in my own legal case, to shine the light of day onto the Orwellian fraud that it was. )

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Very kind? You are one of the nicest women I know.
        And, I’ve gotten really wrapped up in following the trial. You know I’m a people watcher and there are so many aspects of this case that have me mesmorized. I’ll tell you one thing, I would not want to live in Florida.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Scuba Dooba Do!
        But, if you guys ever move, you’d better get you tail back to LA, sister.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Deborah, I’m with you on that one! It seems that one’s race is very telling as to wether truth taks a back seat, to finding justice for A MURDERED CHILD. I won’t ever step one foot in that GOD forsaken state ever again.

        There are other more welcoming states, than this one which is VERY racist towards AA’S for sure. I would rather spend my money elsewhere.