I have changed my mind and now support Judge Nelson’s decision

Saturday, June 22, 2013

Good afternoon:

I was in the waiting room at my doctor’s office down in Tennessee browsing through a dictionary looking for new words with which to torture y’all when CNN announced that Judge Nelson had issued an order excluding the State’s audio experts (Tom Owen and Dr. Alan Reich) from testifying at the trial. For those of you who may not be as familiar with the case as we are, both experts would have testified that George Zimmerman did not utter that haunting shriek. Dr. Reich also would have testified that Trayvon Martin likely uttered the shriek.

The anchor person said Judge Nelson determined that there is an absence of agreement in the scientific community that the methodologies used by Mr. Owen and Dr. Reich were capable of identifying the source of the terrified death shriek due to the current inability in the scientific community to match a voice exemplar with a shout, the poor quality of the 911 recording, and the short length of time in which there are no competing sounds on the recording and only the shriek can be heard (approximately 3 seconds).

Although I predicted Judge Nelson would deny the defense motion, I cannot say that I am surprised or dismayed by her decision. In fact, and I may surprise some of you with this statement, I am going to compliment Judge Nelson for her decision because it is the right decision at the right time in our nation’s courts and I believe it took a lot of courage for her to make it, especially in a high visibility case like this one in which the whole world is watching.

I have previously written about the deplorable state of forensic science in our nation and the need for standards, regulatory oversight, and mandatory blind proficiency testing of lab personnel modeled after the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act (CLIA). There is no question in my mind that Dr. Nakasone and Dr. Weyman are on the right track attempting to establish a national set of standards and accepted methodologies for use in forensic voice identification. Judge Nelson did the right thing by endorsing their efforts and her decision was courageous because a lot of forensic scientists and the prosecutors and defense lawyers who employ them will criticize her.

My support for the admissibility of the results obtained by Mr. Owen and Dr. Reich is based on the unique set of circumstances of this case in which the shriek could only have been uttered by one of two known individuals. This situation only requires eliminating one of the two individuals. Since all of the experts who testified agreed that the methodologies used by the State’s experts have been used for many years and continue to be used today; it was easier to exclude than to declare a match; the defense was unable to find an expert willing to testify that George Zimmerman uttered the shriek; and the circumstantial evidence proves that Trayvon Martin uttered the shriek; I concluded that the State’s experts should have been permitted to testify. I still believe that would have been an appropriate conclusion to reach applying the Frye rule.

I am very pleased and proud of your reaction to the news. I anticipated dismay, some panic, and cynical complaints that Judge Nelson is corrupt and the outcome is rigged. I anticipated this reaction because I confess that it was my first reaction. A 2-hour motorcycle ride home on a beautiful afternoon driving on a lesser-traveled 2-lane highway curving through forests and corn fields with the Crane-Station sitting behind me was the perfect antidote. I fully engaged in driving my motorcycle, forgot my disappointment, and realized the prosecution is in a much better position because of her ruling.

When I arrived home and checked the blog I saw that y’all were taking it in stride without any help from me. Y’all know that the prosecution does not need the expert testimony to convince the jury that Trayvon Martin uttered the shriek and I think y’all also realize that not presenting the expert testimony avoids the inevitable distraction and confusion that a battle of the experts might cause. Indeed, in a case like this with only two possible individuals who could have uttered the shriek, there is virtually no chance that any jury would conclude that the shooter uttered that shriek when the evidence will show that he was the person who was armed, he was the person who got out of his vehicle and ran after an unarmed Trayvon when Trayvvon attempted to get away from him, he was the person who admitted to establishing control over Trayvon with a wristlock before pulling his gun and shooting Trayvon, and the shriek ends with the gunshot. Just as we do not need a weatherman to tell us which way the wind blows, we also do not need experts to tell us who uttered that shriek. Neither will the jury.

Therefore, Judge Nelson did the prosecution a huge favor by excluding the experts. In essence, she applied the KISS rule and is forcing the prosecution to do the same thing. She deserves to be thanked for that, not criticized. Y’all realized that without any assistance from me and that is why I am so proud of you and so delighted to see how much you know about the case and how sophisticated you have become in understanding the evidence and the rules governing the use of expert witnesses.

Anyone lacking your knowledge of the evidence in this case would have thought the prosecution had lost any chance to convict George Zimmerman, given the near unanimity of so-called legal experts characterizing this ruling and the selection of an all woman jury as devastating disasters for the prosecution.

Before I got involved in this case, I did not believe my low opinion of the national media and their so-called legal experts could possibly get any lower. However, the nonsense they are spewing as informed opinion has significantly lowered the bar. Despite its availability, they are ignoring the evidence that we have so carefully analyzed and discussed. They have accepted Mark O’Mara’s false narrative and joined in demonizing an innocent 17-year-old kid with loving parents and a bright future. I would have considered myself extraordinarily fortunate if Trayvon were my son and I would have been extremely proud of him. Anyone lawyer who has joined in the demonization of Trayvon and his parents by appearing on national television and voicing an expert opinion regarding the case that endorses the false narrative as though it were true, is a fundamentally dishonest human being without empathy or moral compass.

In many ways, Travon’s case functions as a mirror reflecting the prejudices people have about race, black male teenagers, and black people as parents and citizens. With the selection off an all female jury, the case is reflecting the prejudices people have about women as decision-makers.

Before this case, I knew we had a long long way to go before we reach a place where we no longer disrespect people by the color of their skin and their gender.

Trayvon’s case has taught me that our society is far more racist and sexist than I imagined. His case is an opportunity to set the record right and recommit to seeking equality and justice for all of our people as opposed to a privileged few.

Congratulations to all of you from your humble professor.



Your continuing support allows me to continue posting independent articles like this.

Please consider making a donation to keep independent journalism alive.

Thank you

945 Responses to I have changed my mind and now support Judge Nelson’s decision

  1. GlennTX says:

    I agree that they could not determine who was screaming, they could have been able to present an audio event chronology report of all the whispered speech. Special Agent James Majeski called Kenneth Marr at the FBI digital evidence lab and canceled the audio event chronology on the 911 calls on April 2 2012. On those calls is evidence that Zimmerman is not alone chasing TM and that Jeremy confesses in the background of Jenna’s call that he communicated with the shooter. Also TM saying “I’m begging you, get off” which is what Rachel said as well, TM said “get off get off”. Also the name Mark is yelled out on Jenna’s call, as well as a male voice crying and shuttering “he’s dead’ and “why kill’em”. The State knows Zimmerman was not alone and that Jeremy helped but they have successfully suppressed that evidence.

  2. Dee says:

    Prosecutors Strategies….

    We are in the 1st week of the trial, and these prosecutors know exactly what they are doing. They are making it possible for Zimmerman to have to take the stand to testify. This is when you see all the lies that Zimmerman has been saying the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, and he will have to explain every inconsistencies, that he was showing the detectives. And this is where he is going to be taken down and the jury will finally see Zimmerman for the liar that he really is.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yeah, because Omara knows that Zimmerman would never survive the witness stand. His demeanor is too unpredictable, he is subject to becoming very aggressive when asked questions that paint him into a corner. Zimmermans past is full of behavior problems, he doesn’t have the ability to reason well and he tends to show his emotions on his face. He has a very dead, blank look to me and he will not come off as remorseful because he is not and will not be able to fake it. Omara can’t prep a person like him. He is the worst kind of psychotic personality. This is why I am sure Omara has already assured him that he won’t have to take the stand. This is also why West tried to break Rachel down and make her not credible. If they have to put him on the stand they will be doomed. I on the other hand will call out of work on that pleasant day (assuming I will be working) precede to my kitchen and grab hands full of snacks to spread out around me while I watch Zimmerman squirm for his life. I will bet you there will be at least one outburst by him. They better dope him up well or he may just start talking about the time he found magic beans and something about a beanstalk.

  3. LeaNder says:

    Finally the wisdom from Stately McManor. I don’t think she realized what she said, (I think that is his transcript) and yes BDLR did not confront her hard. But this girl obviously is not such a bright light. Please I do not mean this as an insult. I can understand her defiance, but I don’t know if the jury knows what she went through already.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Her poor English is due to the fact that there are 3 languages spoken in her house.

      • LeaNder says:

        I was on the wrong thread again yesterday, good you caught me. 😉

        Yesterday I got enormously tired watching the empeachment fight. It felt it was more than just discredit her.

        Something else defense seems to have effectively managed to keep the prof of Fogen’s college out. Seems there is only a minor chance he will be able to witness via skype.

        take care, jo

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Today Omar put it out there that Kokocapelli’s is where gz went for aerobics training… Hahaha… Yet another hole he’ll have to climb out of.

          • LeaNder says:

            I wish we could sent some telephatic messages to the ladies, especially the one that takes so many notes. The lady that said she was a lawyer at heart. I fear she takes the wrong ones.

            Aerobics, well, one can always try. What found even more sick is the fact that he has been going around argueing MMA style attacks on his client with the full knowledge that this is exactly what his client trained in 3 days a week. Of course he will present the owner stating that he wasn’t good.

            It’s almost morning here, I gotta sleep wanted to take a look what people thought, but I haven’t made it through.

            Take care Lonnie. 😉

          • LeaNder says:

            I wish we could sent some telephatic messages to the ladies, especially the one that takes so many notes. The lady that said she was a lawyer at heart. I fear she takes the wrong ones.

            Aerobics, well, one can always try. What found even more sick is the fact that he has been going around argueing MMA style attacks on his client with the full knowledge that this is exactly what his client trained in 3 days a week. Of course he will present the owner stating that he wasn’t good.

            It’s almost morning here, I gotta sleep wanted to take a look what people thought, but I haven’t made it through.

            Take care Lonnie. 😉

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Okay, when you wake up and get this here’s a “Good Morning to you”, to go with your coffee!

            Bernie did a terrific job, a real number on Omar! He sat quietly, when he could have objected and shut the PA thing down. Why? Because it was all hearsay and the PA could not diagnose a photo.

            Bernie expected Omar to be desperate enough to try, so he let him. Omar started out cautiously, wonder when Bernie would object, but Bernie pretended to be engrossed with other things and not paying attention.

            Sure enough Omar went on a tear! First there were likely injuries that could have healed by the time the PA saw gz. There was the “swollen nose photo” and the PA quickly dreamed up ice packs and meds to explain why the 12 midnight photo showed nothing at all.

            When this didn’t get Bernie’s attention, Omar went on and on, first there appeared black eyes, next every bump on gz’s skull became hematomas under the skin. No mention of why the two sharp force injuries had no bruising around them, as you would expect from a blunt force object like hitting the sidewalk. No matter, Omar was off into dreamland and the PA was right there behind him with “reasonable” explanations for every one of MOM’s proposals.

            Soon the party was raging along and even the shadows, surrounding the lumps on gz’s head, became bruises and therefore evidence of a vicious attack by a kid armed with a sidewalk. gz has lumps on all sides of his skull, and so, without saying so, Omar was proposing that Trayvon was smacking gz with his sidewalk weapon, on every part of his head.

            Finally when Omar got tired and could think of nothing more to add, he sat down. Bernie rose and fired for full effect:

            Don’t people normally have irregular skulls? Answer: Yes!

            And about all those injuries you and Omar have just discovered;
            How come you didn’t diagnose all these injuries you two have been ranting about, when you had gz in your office? Are you telling us that you let a man, nearly mortally wounded, leave your office with all these terrible injuries, with your recommendation that he simply wash the two small cut you did note, with soap and water?
            While telling the jury that this is a photo of life threatening injuries, you didn’t notice the day after, when he came to your office?

            The juror who took notes will need to rip those pages up, because there’s not one thing on them that supports the defense. Don’t worry, the other jurors will be only too happy to show her why all that stuff is counterfeit!

  4. Wendie Dox says:

    how long has this been going on? i’m totally bored, and I hope the jury is too.

  5. amsterdam1234 says:

    T minus 60 minutes. Countdown to justice.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      From Sunny California,

      Hoodies up!!!!!

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Hoodies up.
        I lived in California for a number of years. It is definitely not as sunny here. But am sending lots of good rays to all of you and to the Martin family in particular.

  6. chi1224 says:

    Good morning to all of you. The day I have been waiting for over a year to get here has finally arrived! Hoodies up everyone! Justice for Trayvon!

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  8. Deborah Moore says:

    Amsterdam’s report has inspired me to get a few things done around here before 6:00 my time.
    Hang tough, Justice Seekers.

  9. Nellie Nell says:

    Good Morning Everyone!


  10. Tzar says:

    Hoodies up!

  11. Trained Observer says:

    Good morning ZcB and all. Hoodies up!

  12. ZCBest says:

    Morning family! Hoodies up!

  13. Dave says:

    Channel 6 News is saying that Tracy and Sybrina will be making a statement in front of the courthouse around 8:15.

    • Leisa says:

      Bet they had a long night. I can’t imagine how they are dealing with this.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for alert, Dave. Trayvon’s parents have waited all too long for this dawn. .

    • ic2fools says:

      thanks Dave!

      I’m starting my dinner early off to the kitchen I go.. my peach cobbler be in the oven within the next 30 minutes,, as if I’m not going to have an early snak. 😆

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @ic2 — blueberries here for cobbler 🙂

        • ic2fools says:

          @fauxie so wish i could email you a bowl!!

          one thing for sure i didn’t get my recipe from Paula Dean, snort!

          never much cared for seperating whites from the y(f)olks anyway (i’m bad) hehehehehe!!!!

        • ic2fools says:

          fauxie, who did Nelson kick out of the courtroom? was it the outhouse squirrels?

          my 3g lost connect on the road, just got home. arrrgghhh!!! hey its’ works though!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            She kicked out the gz family circus because they were on the witness list. She also sent Crump out because he hasn’t yet been deposed.

            West’s opening gave gz a lot to worry about, he’s worried because, although West says gz wasn’t following Trayvon — and everyone knows that it will be established that he should not have followed Trayvon — West starts gz at Taaffe’s then has them come together again at the clubhouse, and finally he’s over on TTL getting out of his truck and running after him.

            Looking at the audience, who are watching the jurors, I don’t feel that opening went over too well with the jurors, who probably saw the 1, 2, 3 and are now waiting to hear the defense try to explain no. 4.

            Things can only get worse for gz when the jury learns of the distances involved. Obviously gz wasn’t headed for the store when he passed up the main gate, and since Trayvon was walking, it took him several minutes to move distances gz should have moved through in seconds.

            West wound up saying that gz was at the clubhouse when Trayvon started running. Because he could not put gz’s car behind Trayvon walking on TTL. So he had to keep gz at the clubhouse to make his “not following” work. Not a good thing at all and gz knew it, you could see he wanted to crawl out of his skin.

    • tonydphotog says:

      As they should!

      I really hope that Junior doesn’t do the same, like last time.

  14. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  15. Leisa says:

    It is going to be an interesting day. I don’t know if anyone else is a tennis fan but Wimbledon starts in about 10 minutes. Being a huge fan, I see the tv being on Tennis channel, laptop on trial and I-pad to keep up here. Thank goodness for the dvr.

    • Leisa says:

      Oh and a heat wave begins in my area today and expected to last all week. I could do without that. Wish it was 75 all the time….

  16. amsterdam1234 says:

    Maybe Guy is giving the opening statement because Bernie’s report with e6 wasn’t that great.

    • Leisa says:

      Mr. Guy is a very smart man and I think he will be great. Could this approach also be to keep Mom off balance and on his toes?

  17. fauxmccoy says:

    CNN reporting that ASA Guy will be making opening arguments for the state. interesting and not what i expected.

    chances of sleep here in CA before trial looking slim to none and slim just skipped town.

  18. Leisa says:

    Good morning Warriors. Only a few more hours!

    • ic2fools says:

      Good morning Leisa

      Tic Toc! I admit the anticipation is overwhelming.

      • diary73 says:

        Today is the day.

        • ic2fools says:

          yes, yes it ’tis!!

          Of all things I’m leaving at 9am, arrrgghhh!! I’ve got my earphones and Droid ready. My girlfriend driving understands I won’t be paying much attention to anything else while riding.

        • ic2fools says:

          Oh my goodness, street sign! fogen was less than a block from the clubhouse, how the hell did he get lost and not know where the heck he was? west is a dam fool.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            PLEASE!!! Give West some credit, he knew he could convince the jury that three streets are just waaaay too many for a person to remember the names of in under two years. Sheeeze!!! 😆

            Oh and now we know this:

            Now that we have these new times:

            1) GZ’s NEN call ended at 7:13:43pm
            2) TM’s call with DeeDee ended at 7:15:44pm

            So the 911 call began at 7:16:11 so we have only 27 seconds of
            activity unaccounted for. Where we once believed there was as much
            as a 70 second gap. I’ve revised my timeline to reflect this new info.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie- SWEEEEEET! Even less time for nose smothering, head bashing, curse casting and MMA mayhem.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

  19. Woow! says:

    Has anyone heard what attorneys in FL think about MOM and the way he has been handling this case? He cannot have a good reputation after this is over.

    • BlueJ says:

      There was a statement made, just after O’Mara started releasing Trayvon’s recordings, by some attorney that was the head of a local attornies association. He was critical of MOM and said he would not have done that.

      • ladystclaire says:

        OMG, you’re right, I had forgot about him. he is the newly elected president of the Criminal Defense Attorneys Association. and, he did indeed say just that.

        O’dirty is just a lying flea bitten dog. you know when you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.(ie) The Conservative Slum House of Ill Repute.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I haven’t heard and, I’ve been wondering the very same thing. I do know that there are two other Marks who are also defense attorneys and, they are supporting O’dirty all the way.

      It’s sad isn’t that an attorney can drag a deceased kid’s character through the mud, and still have the support of some of his fellow attorneys. I use to have respect for WFTV legal analyst Bill Scheafer but, NOT ANY MORE.

    • BlueJ says:

      Sorry I was referring to Trayvon’s cellphone recordings and pictures.

  20. willisnewton says:

    Twas the night before justice.

  21. ay2z says:

    Lookie here– from cfnews13

    The latest twist in the George Zimmerman trial involves his college homework.

    Copies of Zimmerman’s college textbooks and workbooks are part of the latest request by the prosecution with opening statements set to begin Monday morning.

    As a student at Seminole State College, Zimmerman took ‘Criminal Justice In Action’ and ‘Criminal Law and ‘Procedures for the Paralegal’.

    The request for Zimmerman’s e-mails and class materials came out one day before Judge Debra Nelson ruled not to allow the state’s audio expert to testify at trial about 911 evidence.

    • ay2z says:

      Could these emails be from the time fogen was taking these classes, and could they include emails to and from his instructor/prof?

      • ay2z says:

        Found Criminal the book “Justice in Action: The Core.”
        By Larry K. Gaines, Roger LeRoy Miller

        If this is the same book, edition etc, a search within the book on the Amazon sellers page for ‘Justifiable Homicide’ , reveals that indeed, students could have had this assigned reading, even tested on the concept of homicide, justifiable and other categories under ‘Criminal Liability’.

        The professor/instructor should clear that up nicely.

      • Nef05 says:

        I’m betting they are. It’s curious they list them as requests, though. They’re listed on the supplemetal discovery doc, which means they already have them.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I think that the emails were after the murder discussing the kids father in a not so kind way. I think those emails hold information about the story that he should tell to explain why he had to shot an unarmed kid in the heart. BDLR asked about those emails at the bond hearing when the killer took the stand to tell his lies about his victims age and his fake apology to the Martin family.

      • Tzar says:

        Nef05 says:
        June 24, 2013 at 12:02 am

        I’m betting they are. It’s curious they list them as requests, though. They’re listed on the supplemetal discovery doc, which means they already have them.

        More of that stellar journalism we’ve come to be so accustomed to in this case?

    • Trained Observer says:

      So Fogen’s brown-noser e-mails to his profs (dog ate my homework, my daddy was a judge, gimme an ‘A’ cause I’m special) just may surface, likely in rebuttal? If so, that will be a hoot. 🙂 🙂 🙂

  22. ay2z says:

    Prof, if this is early, we’ll send it on over again!!

  23. My Forehead Tho says:

    So apparently the Defense has asked The Conservative Tree house to help them spot the inconsistencies of the witnesses in this trial:

    “However, if you spot a witness “lie” (divergence from prior claim) immediately point it out and we’ll crowd source quickly to give the defense the citations to cross examine and point out the disparity.”

    They have the post up as we speak. Is this legal?

    • Rachael says:

      You know, I had written a long, heart-felt note because I’m very emotional and for some reason it didn’t get posted – so in response to your post – and to lighten things up for just a moment, if you are ready for a good laugh:

      Unfortunately, because I’m in battle with Miami-Dade, the next few days look sketchy at best for me to review every moment of the trial. I’ve got to coordinate legal pressure on the Shadow Dwellers who are trying to keep a lid on the Trayvon Miami angle. The FOIA’s (public records) will reveal the truth – but, as you know, they have a vested interest in waiting until after trial to release. Yes, the information is THAT explosive.

      • Rachael says:

        And more responsive to your post:

        “we’ll crowd source quickly to give the defense” — Can I ask how this is going to be done quickly enough to be meaningful? Are they going to have to come here to see it, or is it going to be emailed to them (or otherwise sent electronically) and how would they know to check for it? Don’t get me wrong–I think that this is an awesome idea as many people here know the case just as well as, if not better on some details, the defense does–but how does this knowledge get to them? (It’s OK, too, if you don’t want to answer me because of unfriendlies reading this blog. 🙂 )

        XXX says:
        June 23, 2013 at 9:32 pm

        It might be safe to assume that at least one intern will be set up in court to “see” things, and I doubt that SD would even send out a crowd sourcing request if he didn’t have reason to believe the defense would see it.

      • cielo62 says:

        Rachael- did he just get off the phone for that explosive announcement? 😉


      • Rachael says:

        That was a previous one. I think he just got off the can for this one.

      • Rachael says:

        Well I don’t know if it’s a floater or a sinker, I never check the refuse at the outhouse THAT closely.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          West started out by telling some joke, I missed it because of buffering. But it seemed to have fallen flat, no juror responded and West tried to back quickly away from it and move on. Imagine starting a murder trial with a sequestered jury and trying to tell a joke??? Supremely stupid, gz was horrified. Hahahaha…

      • ay2z says:

        cielo and Rachael, does it matter if it floats some or jets some?


      • ic2fools says:

        Good morning ya’ll reading your comments I thought about this article to share. I can see outhouse scrambling to get in the lottery line for a seat. Mr. Cracker twisting it to make them think he has a insider in the courtroom. Well ain’t that special (snort).

        Public can enter lottery for seats at George Zimmerman trial
        24 seats open to randomly selected lottery winners

        Published On: Jun 21 2013 05:17:40 PM


    • Xena says:

      @My Forehead. If O’Mara and West want to take the advice of folks who have no professional training nor education in the rules of trial procedure and cross-examination, then let them look like fools before the nation as they are shot down by objections.

      Another thing — the jury will see O’Mara and West scrambling when it comes time to cross-examine, delaying the proceedings. It will make the defense look like idiots who have never tried a case.

    • Yorazigo says:

      What does “crowd source” mean?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I only know what it means in reference to funding a project, as on Kickstarter – a group of people donating. I suppose to crowd source feedback to OM just means people sending their suggestions or observations.

    • Jun says:

      So they are asking for idiots who lie all the time, to tell them the truth about other people lying?


      If he was smart he’d just get a transcript or have an intern take notes but whatever LMAO

      • ic2fools says:



        So they are asking for idiots who lie all the time, to tell them the truth about other people lying?


  24. Rachael says:

    You know, I’ve been following here for almost a year now. Some of you seem like best friends, even though we’ve never “met.” And we are all like family, brought together by one desire – Justice for Trayvon that he may rest in peace and his family have some peace.

    Sometimes we have had our disagreements, but we have always stood strong in our goal.

    We have waited a long time for this day and I just want to thank everyone. I know tomorrow, no matter where we are, we will all be together in spirit for the Martin-Fulton’s and Justice for Trayvon.

    • cielo62 says:

      Rachael- I said this exact same thing to my spouse. I have been blessed ( and that is not a word I use lightly) in having met some truly amazing people here, brought together by love and working for justice. Mi casa es su casa in case you ever find yourself in Houston Texas. 🙂


      • ZCBest says:

        ditto to Rachael and Cielo62….blessed is the only word tha comes to mind.

        Mi casa es su casa in NJ.

  25. colin black says:

    anyone elses posts going wherever they want to?

  26. colin black says:

    And now they have reappeared?

    I Blame NORTON I cant wait till my friggin time with them expires never had a pc run so slow.

  27. Beverly Lawson says:

    So true; thanks. Prayers and peace; we know they have courage.

  28. colin black says:

    Why are my vts disappearing?

    • ay2z says:

      Tribute for Crane and Fred, you have brought us to this point,
      Thank you.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        What a wonderful way to end the evening!

        Thanks everyone for your wisdom and insight and allowing me to be a part of the discussions!

        Thank you Professor and Crane for you unflappable knowledge to those of use that know little about the laws and how the court proceedings work. I am so glad that I was led to your blog. Here I feel welcomed to speak my mind and ask my questions without being called names.

        You all hold me together and I cherish that. I use to cry all the time because I had nowhere to turn where people understood my anger and hurt about the killing of an unarmed teen. It could have been the child of anyone and I would have still had the same hurt. No ones child deserves to be shot in the heart at anytime for simply walking alone on a dark rainy night.

        Peace be with us all and may the hearts of the jury be open and honest as they sit and listen to all of the evidence.

        I will check in tomorrow morning to see how things are going. I will be working, but will have the stream going beside me to catch what I can.

        Good night all!

    • ay2z says:

      (colin, the page is heavy with video connections, try emptying cache and reloading the page. Safari can be a problem too when this happens)

      • colin black says:

        how do you empty a cashe an what is it?

      • ay2z says:

        Colin, your browser should have a way to empty cache maybe under the menu dropdown of the browser name. I’m not on a PC so maybe it’s different for you. For mine, clear history and everything to lighten the drain on memory that will slow things. This thread is heavy to reload now with the videos, takes time.

  29. colin black says:

    This Is for you TRAYVON

  30. colin black says:


    • ay2z says:

      So soon??? Oh! British time 😉

    • Happy birthday to you too, Colin.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        was trying to wait til midnight, my time … but

        happy birthday fred & colin

        i’d break out the party favors, but i’m saving them for bernie 🙂

      • Sleuth says:

        Happy Birthday Reverend Fred!

        You preached a wonderful sermon yesterday, it brought tears to my eyes, and gave me pause for some self reflection.

        Went to Sunday a.m. service, and guess what, my pastor was preaching on many of the very points you mentioned.

        Almost got the feeling my pastor might be one of the lurkers who admire your opinions and thoughtful insights.

        I was sitting there thinking, “Man, that sounds just like what professor said in his post, “I have changed my mind and now support Judge Nelson’s decision”.

        Thanks again for all you and Crane do for the cause of Justice for Trayvon Benjamin Martin, and doing your respective parts in making our country and world a better place in which to live.

        May today be the first day of the best days of your life!

        Be very blessed!

      • ic2fools says:

        @Professor and Colin!


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Happy birthday, Prof and Colin!

    • Jun says:

      Happy Born Day

      Congrats to another fulfilling year and the beginning of another

  31. ay2z says:

    Soaring high

  32. Malisha says:

    Laundering my grey hoodie tonight so I’ll be ready for this week.

  33. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Will tapes (without commentary) of the trial be posted somewhere in case we miss portions of the trial?

  34. Sophia33 says:

    In many African traditions, there is a practice of pouring libation. It is a way to honor the ancestors who came before us and to ask them to be here with us. Tomorrow morning I am going to take time before the hearing starts to pour libation and call on many of those ancestors to be with Trayvon’s family and BDLR.

  35. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  36. Brandy says:

    Excellent article Professor! I have to agree about the decision to not use the the audio/ voice experts. Like you, I was upset at first about the ruling. As I started thinking more about it I came to the conclusion that what the Judge decided was correct. By bringing in the experts it would of muddied the waters and brought more confusion! This is a common sense case. Let the jurors decide who is screaming on that tape. As long as the jurors are honest, don’t have a hidden agenda or racist, they will know that it was Trayvon Martin screaming that disturbing death shriek and not a Grown man with a gun! Looking forward to the opening statements on Monday. Since I live in Northern Calif I have already set my alarm for 5:45 am to watch live.



    • boyd says:

      the defense will muddle everything , nothing new there. And you better believe they’ll use Trayvon’s cell phone against the Judge orders just to keep planting that seed.

      It’s war I want to go in with all my weapons. JN just took away one of my grenades

  37. Nef05 says:

    Question, while we’re on the subject of emails. Does anyone know if there’s a phone carrier tech, or something that can authenticate fogen’s emails/texts for the court, on the prosecution’s witness list?

    Are they automatically authenticated by having been subpoenaed from the carrier (I can’t remember offhand if they did subpoena them, but having lived through Kwame Kilpatrick’s sext scandal, I’m guessing they did)?

  38. disappointed says:

    I think when the State lays it out there tomorrow morning, it will be a real tear jerker. Everyone stocked up on Kleenex? Plenty of water to stay hydrated? Everyone be sure to say your prayers tonight and ask God to lend the Prosecutor a hand. I do not care what Fogen says this was not my God’s plan maybe his gawd but not mine. Mine loves children!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      They’re in recess right now. The Judge let the “excited utterances” in. The prosecution is low balling it’s opening statements. I think they’ve got plenty in reserve, since they’re not being circuitous, as they would be if they were making an extended statement with little backing. Low balling without being repetitious means they’re going to let the case unfold on the stand, rather than in the opening statement. They ordered gz’s family out and Attorney Crump as well. Martins family is there. So is Angela Corey.

  39. DruDo says:

    “The best ammunition against lies is the truth, there is no ammunition against gossip. It is like a fog and the clear wind blows it away and the sun burns it off.”
    ~Ernest Hemingway

    May Bernie De La Rionda be Trayvon Martin’s clear wind and sun.

  40. Malisha says:

    What remarkable talent. I wish there was a way to put LLMPapa’s videos into chronological order and link them with each carrying a one- or two-line intro, such as: “Fogen claimed that the ‘suspicious guy’ had come from Point A and circled the car and then skipped to Point B and…etc.” and then show the video clip that disproved that and made fun of the lies.

    How many total videos have you made on this case, LLMPapa? I can see them on your webpage but I can’t get them into chronological order to count them to make sure I haven’t missed any. ???

  41. Jun says:

    Just remember, self defense is an affirmative defense. Fogen cant just sit like a potted plant and have the jurors presume Trayvon is responsible. Fogen has to present evidence that follows the self defense law. If he does not, the judge grants him no self defense instruction. Even if self defense instruction is granted, Fogen has specific points he has to prove to gain the self defense claim. The state can also disprove anything Fogen claims.

    • boyd says:

      their resting everything on the bloody nose, back of head. There is nothing else all it takes is 1 juror to say “Poor Georgie”

      I believe he hurt himself in the struggle,and he may have taken a punch, or may not. I don;t know if that gun has a good sized recoil. The gun had to be less than 1 foot from his face , if anything he said about laying on the ground is true. But I don’t beliefe anything he said.

      • Jun says:

        Having said that, if someone does feel sorry for Fogen’s face, how will they feel about Trayvon and his mother?

        How will they react that the DNA does not support Fogen’s story?

        Will they believe Fogen, who has repeatedly lied or the forensic expert?

      • disappointed says:

        4 tiny scratches vs/ 1 bullet hole to the chest? Hands down Martin’s wound is/was life threatening. Zimmerman’s -only life threatening to a puss.

      • Rachael says:

        What gets me is when the outhouse refuse says things like it has to be Trayvon who started it. He has no injuries and look at the horrible injuries GZ sustained in a brutal beating.

        No injuries? NO INJURIES? What do you call a GSW to the chest?!!!

        • Xena says:


          He has no injuries and look at the horrible injuries GZ sustained in a brutal beating.

          Bigotvoyant theories lack all logic. First, they use the word “injuries” rather than results of giving GZ a beating. There were no bruises, cuts, or other signs on Trayvon’s hands indicating that he used them to beat GZ about the face and head.

      • Jun says:

        I’m just saying

        even if we were to simply base it off of Trayvon’s GSW and Fogen’s chicken scratches and fake bloody nose

        The possibility that Fogen attacked first, killed Trayvon, and then staged injuries, is still an evident possibility


        Fogen attacked first and Trayvon tried to defend himself and then got killed

        Am I right? Is it not a potential possibility?

        Is Fogen the first person to fake injuries for a court issue?

        No he is not… people have been faking injuries for self defense claims and lawsuits all the time!

  42. LLMPapa says:

    It’s time. I’ve done all I can do. God Bless each and every one of you who have walked this long journey with me.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Oh, LLMPapa, your video took my breath away and went straight to my heart!

      Bless you!

      Yes, we all stand by you, Trayvon, and we stand with your parents and loved ones!

    • Momma says:

      My sincerest thanks to you for being such an inspirational voice.

    • Malisha says:

      I hear you LLMPapa — and I don’t need any experts to get it, loud and CLEAR!

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. I am in tears — mixed emotions. The video touched my heart. It brings forth the inner you, your talents, as well as deep emotions for Trayvon. Bless you LLMPapa. But, I am also crying because your contribution of videos will be missed. Some caused me to gasp when seeing evidence plainly laid out. Some caused me to laugh. Others gave me hope. They brought life to Trayvon, as well as justice for the taking of his life. They captured the dignity of Trayvon’s parents. Oh — there is too much that your videos accomplished to list here.

      Here’s a toast to you, LLMPapa, and justice for Trayvon.

      • Tzar says:

        I am saddened that this is his last vid too
        I have a feeling the defense might say something so sublimely stupid that he will be forced out of retirement.

        • Xena says:


          I have a feeling the defense might say something so sublimely stupid that he will be forced out of retirement.

          LOL!. I was thinking the same thing.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @LLMPAPA, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, for all you’ve done in this our quest to get Justice For Trayvon and his family. the same goes for the Professor, Crane and each and every one of you, who come here to this site seeking the truth in this case as well as standing with this child and his family, and showing the rest of society that, it’s wrong to hate and that it’s also wrong to kill children no matter what their age or age may be.

      What you’ve done with your videos, pointed out all of the lies that have been told by one who is seeking to beat the system, even though he knows he is a liar and a cold blooded killer of a child.

      Well done papa, well done and may GOD bless you as well.

    • MollyK says:

      LLMPapa, What a moving and inspiring tribute! Thank you for standing by Trayvon and his family through this long wait for justice. I hope that the prosecutors are up to the challenge.

    • diary73 says:

      You are a man to be admired, Papa. I love your work and your dedication to justice.

    • parrot says:

      Thank you, Papa. When I would comb the internet for articles on this case, I found this blog and saw my first LLMPapa video. What a revelation!

      I knew that a crime had been committed that night, and I was convinced of a LE cover up, but it was you, Papa, as well as the professor and the insightful and talented posters here who educated me based on the evidence.

      Bless you, and may you live a long, long time so you can reap in your life the love you have sown here.

    • type1juve says:

      LLMPapa, Once again you have outdone yourself! I have to admit that after JN”s ruling yesterday I was feeling down about the case. A thoughtful night and this video is just what I needed. Thank you so much!

      Hoodies Up!

    • disappointed says:

      Blue Angels perfect ending. Angels plus Trayvon wanted to make a career with Planes. LLMPapa I love your videos and your dedication to Justice for Trayvon. Thank you and God bless you!

    • Judy75201 says:

      Thank you.

    • EdgySF says:

      Holy cow, man. Way to turn on th waterworks. Sniff

      Thank you for the inspiration. Prayers for Trayvon. He is not alone. We stand by him.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Thank you LLM Papa! That brought tears to my eyes. I have been watching your videos almost since the beginning, but I could never respond to them on Youtube. I am glad that I found you.

      You give a sista hope.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Chills and tears, Papa! What a finale!

      We are finally where we all wanted to be – hoodies up!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Nice work LLMPapa… I’ve made a playlist of some of your work and titled it THE BEST OF LLMPapa HERE It was a lot of work, so let me know if any changes should be made by posting the link and what title it should replace. Otherwise enjoy. You’ve been a blessing to us all.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      Thank You for caring for this loving family.

    • ZCBest says:

      I am way too emotional for a coherent response. Just thank you and God bless us all. Justice for Trayvon is here.

    • Ty Flair says:

      Thank you Sir! Job well done. When I seen your first video I knew your heart was in the right place. Once again THANK YOU!

    • Sleuth says:

      LLMPapa, Man o’ Man, This is just too awesome for words.

      There is no doubt in my mind that God also appointed you for a time such as this. Thank you for answering when love called. Hopefully you’ll stick your head in just to say, “Hey y’all’.

      “The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace”. ~ Numbers 6:24-26

      May the anointing of the Almighty be upon you, and fill your cup to overflowing.

      Farewell for now my friend. Continue to spread your wings and soar like an eagle!

      Blessings, Love, and Peace to you and your family now, and forever more.

      You’ll be sorely missed.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I have prayerful hope that Trayvon will receive justice and that our society will never again see this happen to another child.

        I have prayerful hope that no AA child or adult will ever be profiled or stereotyped ever again.

        I have prayful hope that the day will come when racism will not exist.

        I have prayerful hope that our messages and energy of love, kindness and support will reach every corner of America and be heard and felt and cause transformation in every corner of America.

        • cielo62 says:

          YAHTC- from your mouth to God’s ears!


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ve just read it may be Professors birthday, Happy Birthday to You Fred!!!

            West is in the process of destroying gz’s defense! You’ve gotta see this. Man O’ Man, gz looks like he’s getting ready to scream!

      • Sleuth says:


        Amen, and so it is.

        What a beautiful and powerful prayer. Always remember, “God said, “I have heard thy prayer, and I have seen thy tears……..” ~ Isaiah 38:5

        My friend, your prayer is also my hope. I also trust that God is, right now, healing what needs healing in this matter of justice placed before us.

        Be very blessed. 🙂

    • colin black says:

      Its been an HONOUR

    • ay2z says:

      Beautiful, Papa. I found you on YouTube when you had about 170+ subscribers and joined your followers.

      Today your susbscribers have grown to 550 with 330,000+ views. Your work is so appreciated, your dedication tireless. Thanks to those who worked with you and contributed their time, talents and ideas.

      Your library for this case stands as testimony to the caring human spirit.

      With all my respect and admiration, to you and to those who were your fellow artists and creators and thinkers, my sincere thanks.

    • Operacarla says:

      Papa..you are such a comfort and guide to me. Thank you for all of your shared knowledge over the past year. Let’s all hold hands tomorrow and keep holding them throughout the trial. You have all been marvelous people to know this past year. Time to soar indeed! Thanks Papa.

    • cielo62 says:

      LLMPapa~ *** tears*** thank you. For EVERYTHING.


    • Shada524 says:

      I don’t really know what to say except thank you. Your videos have given me comfort and insight. They’ve made me laugh, cry, curse and I’ve watched them again and again. I don’t normally comment here but I’m always lurking and I appreciate all the discussion and Prof Fred’s articles. When Peni from HP posted that this would be your last video I had to come here and comment. This made me cry. I appreciate everything you’ve done in this journey for justice. Yes, I will be standing with Sybrina and Tracy and everyone who seeks justice for Trayvon.

      Justice is coming for Trayvon!

    • Nef05 says:


      Thank you… for everything.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh LLMPapa, thanks to you, Bernie and his team and everyone here, Trayvon will now be able to rest in peace.

      Thank you Papa, thank you everyone. I wish we could all be together tomorrow and throughout this trial, and tomorrow morning to hold hands and have a quiet moment together before they start, but I know we will all be together in our hearts, in our thoughts and in our goal for Justice for Trayvon.

      Justice for Trayvon

      May he finally rest in peace.

    • Shari says:

      Thank you for the video. I know Sybrina appreciates the work you have done.

      This was not a good time for me to watch this. I just got some bad news.

      Pray without ceasing. Everyone share the video.

    • Valerie says:

      Words can not say how blessed we have been by your work LLMPapa.I do believe we have been entertained by an Angel.May the Lord keep and BLESS you always.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Thank you for your logic, dedication, and motivation to helping repair this enormous wrong, in the only way our society can. So much inspiration.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      Thank You LLMPapa,

      For giving us hope, raising us up when we feal down. Thank you for caring, for searching deep within. You have been the Voice of Trayvon, he could not speak. We hear you, hand in hand we stand together, all races, because we believe.

    • Yorazigo says:

      LLMPapa, thank you for this awesome video and all of you previous ones along the course leading to GZ’ trial. You helped uncover innumerable slight details, as well as major lies, that are proof of GZ’ guilt.

      Watching and looking forward to a “guilty” verdict!

    • bgesq says:

      LLMPapa, you rock! This video is amazing. Thank you for all your hard work on this case and for always making things so easy to understand. Thank you, thank you, thank you

    • God bless you, LLMPapa! Thank you for all you’ve done. I’m so grateful I found this blog and to be among such wonderful people.

    • groans says:

      @ LLMPapa – What a bittersweet sign-off.

      I literally laughed out loud when your pictures of Trayvon in the courtroom popped up! It was so funny because of the surprise element and how real you made them look! Yet, of course, it was the poignant depiction of Trayvon among us during the trial – and even serving as a guardian angel for the prosecution – that so strongly and artfully tugged at our heart strings.

      Mixed in, as it was, with your farewell, this video was deeply moving on so many levels. You have somehow managed to maintain an extraordinarily high level of quality and substance in your videos about Trayvon’s murder for so long, now. I admire and applaud you for both your insights and your talents in presenting them to the masses. You have – once again – outdone yourself, sir.

      Thank you so much for giving your all to the cause of JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON. And may we all soar together in pursuit of justice for all.

    • RobertSF says:

      Thank you a million times, LLMPapa. Your videos were each powerful indictments.

    • GirlP says:

      Great job LLMPapa, you have guided us through a mountian of evidence and showed just how simple this case is. Hopefully the jury will see straight through George and convict him of murder. Thank you so much.

  43. Gawd, Huffington Post really needs to do something about their moderators. You can’t even deliver a single fact without it being deleted. There is at least a dozen well thought out, 3 paragraph fact-filled posts that have been deleted

    • Sophia33 says:

      I know Leroy. And some of the mods seem to be Zimmerman lovers. There have been many times I have gotten GZ fans on the ropes and the HP won’t post the comment. Sometimes I go back and check and if they don’t post it in a certain time, I repost.

    • Nef05 says:

      It’s the sock accounts flagging posts until they auto delete. I put SG2’s link on there and the socks spammed the thread and pushed it 3 pages deep. They do that with fact filled posts. I think they’re allergic to facts.

  44. chi1224 says:

    Tomorrow the prosecution lays out their strong case against Fogen. I can’t wait.
    Justice for Trayvon. It’s about freaking time!!

    • Rachael says:

      Well actually, if West starts, they may not get to until Tuesday morning. IDK, with him it might be the whole week.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Since When does second chair handle the opener of a first degree murder trial? Especially one who appears teetering on the edge? Is this a ploy for a continuance. a mistrial … some other diversion?

      • cielo62 says:

        Trained Observer~ Second degree murder for a two bit loser.


      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, ceilo62, you are right, of course. As I was typing, I was thinking he deserved the max via his premeditation. M1 on the brain

        • cielo62 says:

          Trained Observer- agree with you that M1 us what we have discovered. But all they to do is get him on M2 for GZ to be out away for life.


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          West is practically putting gz behind bars all by himself. He’s trying to explain that while gz was following Trayvon, he was not following Trayvon at all. He’s mangling the evidence of DD’s call, trying to explain that DD heard the start of when Trayvon decided to confront gz and the call dropped when he decided to try and beat gz to death.

          Stick a fork in gz he’s done. In fact you can see it in gz’s face! West is ruining all his carefully planned excuses.

      • Nef05 says:

        This is exactly my question upthread, TO. In fact, let me scroll up and see if anyone had any ideas. I didn’t check the little following boxes.

      • pat deadder says:

        TO Since when does 2nd chair do opening.Maybe omara is pissed since rzsr critizied him in his book.Or this is west’s last case and doesn’t care about crossing the line.IDK just grasping at straws.

  45. Malisha says:

    Let’s see. Fogen could go to Hong Kong, Moscow, Cuba, Ecuador …

    • disappointed says:

      Hell. He could go to Hell.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Fogen could not only go to Cuba, he could probably claim citizenship through his “father”, RJZSr., who is 50% Cuban – Roberto’s Cuban mother, the daughter of the Cuban diplomat.

      But there’s a problem for Fogen – Cuba prides itself on being a mixed-race country, integrated and without prejudice.

      Cuba wouldn’t make the killer of a black kid feel comfortable – or welcome.

      • fauxmccoy says:


        regarding zim sr’s cuban connections

        i must ask, have you ever seen any verification of this other than the writings of a now banned, former poster? i question the source, not that it really matters much. i did check out all of her posted links and performed a fair amount of my own research and never got anywhere beyond what said banned poster stated. i also remember her repeated postings of a picture, supposedly of gladys which we know now to be completely wrong.

      • Sleuth says:


        And I know just who you’re referring to, and I agree. Was over at HP, and went way overboard in an attempt to get folks to buy into the unsourced information they were posting.

        Most of what was being posted was harvested from another website forum. It’s been 16 months since news about this murder broke, and not one peep about these very questionable connections/relationships have been reported in MSM.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          thanks — all references were circular in my experience and lead back to the same questionable source. specific ‘rumors’ i am referring to

          — zim sr.’s dad being ‘high up’ in state dept
          — zim sr. childhood friends with wolfinger and served in nam together, some godparent relationship between them and kids
          — obviously incorrect photo of gladys
          — stories of zim children not being that of robt. sr and gladys

          obviously, none of this is relevant to the M2 case, but i think a lot of pro-trayvon folks picked up on some of this and took it as gospel. i searched seriously to find any kind of confirmation, it is something i am good at and got no results. all roads lead back to the one making initial allegations. there were many other stories about taffee, other family members, and even our dear professor. i now consider them to be total bunk unless someone can produce a legitimate source.

      • Sleuth says:


        YOU SAID:

        “….. – zim sr.’s dad being ‘high up’ in state dept
        – zim sr. childhood friends with wolfinger and served in nam together, some godparent relationship between them and kids
        – obviously incorrect photo of gladys
        – stories of zim children not being that of robt. sr and gladys

        Yep, same exact rumors. I knew immediately who you were referring to. I followed up on it also, and could not find one thing that jived with the rumors they posted.

        Frankly speaking, I thought the rumors were planted on purpose to see who, and how many would take the bait.

        In fact, when I first came here, I saw a couple of their posts which had the same picture but different user name, and said to myself, “oh no, not here too”, and decided to just lurk for a while.

        Some of their post were very confrontational. Good thing they were banned from posting here.

        I just believed if any of it had an ounce of truth to it, MSM would have been all on top of it announcing, “Breaking story, just in”. Not to say it won’t happen, so far it hasn’t. Like you said, it has absolutely no bearings on the M2 charge.

  46. Malisha says:

    Serino told Fogen on 2/28/2012 that someone had phoned the police on 2/27/2012 (the day after the shooting, when you can be sure the HOA folks all had heard about it) and said that they saw Fogen trying to restrain Trayvon Martin. You can bet your bottom dollar that the police KNOW who called. Yet that person’s name is not on the witness lists. Why? Because (a) that person was not interviewed by the SPD while Lee and Wolfinger were still in charge, since, as W-18 pointed out, the police were not the least bit interested in gathering witness statements; and (b) that person will not be a witness to the prosecution’s “main case” but will only be used in rebuttal of any affirmative defense of “self-defense” that may rely upon Fogen’s insistence that HE did not “confront” Trayvon but rather was “attacked.”

    Of course, trying to get a statement in as res gestae to the effect of “a guy was beating me up [so I had to shoot him]” or “I was calling out for help but nobody helped me” — even if these statements were allowed in (which I still believe will not happen although I’m LESS sure than previously), they would not prove Trayvon Martin was the aggressor in any physical fight. A guy can be “beating up” someone because he got the upper hand in a fight the “beaten-up person” started. And a person can yell for help at any time whether he is simultaneously committing a crime or not. Neither of these statements would prove self-defense. And neither of these statements is really relevant to the elements needed to prove murder-2.

    But if either of these statements, OR testimony by any witness (including but not limited to Fogen) is admitted into evidence to try to prove self-defense, THEN there can be a — or any number of — REBUTTAL WITNESSES.

    Rebuttal witnesses need not be people who were on the prosecution’s witness list.

    This is why I believe Fogen will be convicted. We on this blog believe Fogen to be guilty of Murder-2. The jury does not yet believe that, nor should they. He is still “innocent until proven guilty.” Therefore, if he offers the defense of self-defense, I believe there is going to be a powerful, almost incendiary, rebuttal. Yeah. The jury will not be more blown away by it than we will.

    • willisnewton says:

      I think Serino’s mysterious witness was just a typical detective bluff that failed to scare GZ.

      • Malisha says:

        Might be, might not. Remember W-18 called the police repeatedly with her information and they woudn’t take it.

        I do not think this is at all improbable becaue (a) residents were already scared of Fogen; and (b) residents had already complained about Fogen; and (c) residents would be even more afraid after somebody’s KID got KILLED and Fogen still was not in jail. I find it quite believable. I think the reason it didn’t scare Fogen was that he had already been assured (perhaps third hand) by Wolfinger and/or Lee that he was not going to be charged with a crime.

      • cielo62 says:

        willienewton~ gz is too stupid to be scared by “hints.”


      • Trained Observer says:

        I am so sick of watching Fogen on the various clips with his “I’m so smart, I’m gonna get away with it” smirk that I’ve adapted song into a tacky, tasteless tune for him to sing in the shower.

        ♫•*¨*•.¸¸ ¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪ ♪♫•*¨*•.¸¸ ¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪…
        So you shot someone who set you back on your heels, goody goody
        So you blasted someone and now you know how it feels, goody goody
        You shattered his heart too, just as he screamed ‘stop’ at you,
        And you broke his mom’s in little pieces, and now how do you do?
        So you lie awake just singin’ the blues all night, goody goody
        So you first thunk that shootin’ was oh so fine and right ,,,
        Hooray and hallelujah, you got jail a comin’ to ya
        Goody goody for you, goody goody for us
        And we hope you’re satisfied you killer yoooo, hey!

        ♫•*¨*•.¸¸ ¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪ ♪♫•*¨*•.¸¸ ¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Nice one, TO!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Malisha, I’d be thrilled to be blown away by a blazing rebuttal from the state … one that would leave us all (fat chance) speechless, or at least nearly so.

      Let the jaw-droppers begin.

    • Sleuth says:


      This is what I was trying to point out in the theory I posted up-thread. A week ago I even posted a question about 11th hour witnesses and evidence, asking how those situations would be handled.

      Not only witness #18, but witnesses #5 and #16, as well as the young witness #14, whose mother obtained an attorney after being given the run-around by Serino and SPD.

      You have just been very blessed with the gift of expressing those concerns in a more precise manner than I could ever have don, and for that, I thank you and I applaud you. 🙂

      Lady Justice, here we come!


  47. STATE’S 18TH SUPPLEMENTAL DISCOVERY in #Zimmerman case.

    Click to access states_18.pdf

    • ks says:

      Hmmmm…and so it begins. Looks like the State is getting ready to drop the hammer.

    • boyd says:

      My hopes would be revived if that is what I think it is. They caught him in a lie(s). if so, keep piling them up.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I notice that this is an escalation. The prosecution is getting closer to the critical stuff. I wish we had the Kokocapelli stuff last year, boy what a difference a year would make, shaking idiots out of the treehouse swamp. Some of them do fall you know.

        gz’s text messages must be a gold mine, considering his language habits. His law text books? Explains how he knows what facts to leave out and what to include and when and why to do so. Of course, this was part of his undoing, remember a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. gz is asked a question and he tells the story that he believes will evade the legal responsibilities. But, rephrase the question and he sees new legal problems, so he has to tell a revised story. Thus the revision just kept piling up.

        The crush of new evidence yet to be disclosed has MOM ducking out of the way and putting Piñada Man dangling from the tree limb once again. While the SP readies their sticks.

    • Nef05 says:

      Nice going SG2.

      So, the prosecution has submitted emails from the defendant, presumably to his professor; and two textbooks, presumably covering SYG.

      I LOVE IT!!! 😀

    • Nef05 says:

      Another thing, SG2. Based on this great new info – I’m even less worried about the res gestae motion. Since the prosecution appears to have definitive evidence that fogen DID know about SYG (which WE knew, but didn’t know if they could prove), BDLR can make the argument even more strongly, that West’s alleged fogen quote “am I bleeding?” was not an *in the moment exclamation*, but rather the calculated words of a man intent on assessing the viability of his coverup.

      BDLR will no doubt show the jury just how many times fogen said he didn’t know about SYG, and then show them the video of the professor’s testimony, and the emails showing that he did. Dang, I wish I knew how to make videos.

    • Momma says:

      The two textbooks are possibly from the PLA 2303 Criminal Litigation course that George took and got a A in.
      Criminal Law and Procedure for the Paralegal: A Systems Approach
      Amazon has a Look Inside. I did and it definitely covers self defense.
      Criminal Justice in Action
      This one probably covered SYG.

      • Momma says:

        Ok, I didn’t expect the graphic and don’t know how to get rid of it. Help!

      • Momma says:

        I’m seeing a big graphic of the front cover of the textbook. Am I the only one?

        • Malisha says:

          Seeing it where? Looking at what? At the evidence dump? At some URL?

          • ladystclaire says:

            @LLMPAPA, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, for all you’ve done in this our quest to get Justice For Trayvon and his family. the same goes for the Professor, Crane and each and every one of you, who come here to this site seeking the truth in this case as well as standing with this child and his family, and showing the rest of society that, it’s wrong to hate and that it’s also wrong to kill children no matter what their age or age may be.

            What you’ve done with your videos, pointed out all of the lies that have been told by one who is seeking to beat the system, even though he knows he is a liar and a cold blooded killer of a child.

            Well done papa, well done and may GOD bless you as well.

          • Trained Observer says:

            x2 — Stand by Me was a perfect finale.

          • ay2z says:

            x3 — soaring high

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            And, now Sybrina, Tracy, and Trayvon’s loved ones,

            Please feel our support and remember that we are walking arm in arm with you……You will never walk alone…….We are here for you.

          • cielo62 says:

            Ay2z- When I was young, I used to stay up late waiting for the TV channel to go off the air (ancient history, right?) so I could hear that poem along with a beautiful video of a jet flying high in the clouds. I think that video is also an appropriate tribute. Thank you.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Momma says:

        Sorry for the confusion. I’m talking about the big ad for the book in my post.

    • MollyK says:

      I was hoping to see the emails, but they’re not there!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @mollyk who says

        I was hoping to see the emails, but they’re not there!

        yup, i would love to see them as well. again, the prosecution has taken the high road and self censored so as to not put forth pre-trial discovery which is likely highly to be prejudicial to the defense.

      • ks says:

        I bet they are not the only emails either.

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ FINALLY the emails! Where are they?


      • I was so hoping to see them…

      • Nef05 says:

        I don’t think it’s those emails, Cielo62. I believe these emails may be between fogen and his professor.

        THOSE emails would have had to have been listed on an earlier discovery, to be included in the motion to seal them way back when, no?

  48. Puck says:

    I am fervently hoping to hear three terms from BDLR tomorrow morning: “phone records,” “text messages,” and “GPS data.”

    Maybe West’s muttering about the prosecution having proof Fogen confronted Trayvon stems from this evidence.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I hope so too.

      • Puck says:

        The phone records and texts were sealed at the very beginning because they were prejudicial to the defense. It would be strange if these were not part of the state’s strategy.

      • Rachael says:

        I can certainly understand sealing those because they could be prejudicial and not allow GZ a fair trial, but why does that only go one way? Why was it okay for the defense to say and do and expose all the BS they did? How does that make for a fair trial?

      • bettykath says:

        Consider how much information the state has released in the discovery dumps. We know soooo much about this case because of what the state has made available.

    • Malisha says:

      Hey didn’t they ban the words “phone records” and “text messages” and “GPS data” already? If not, expect an emergency motion at 9:01 a.m.

      • Puck says:

        I so can’t wait until tomorrow morning. This is gonna be so awesome. I spent (and wasted) so much time on HP last summer going round in circles with Zidiots, all “la la la i can’t hear you” and repeating the same tired bits, like “45% of head covered in blood!!” or “FBI says Zimmerman’s racist! see??” or “witnesses saw trayvon pummeling GZ MMA-style!!!!” – completely incapable of forming arguments or rational thinking – DMiller1234 and I went around in circles, with a couple of HP doctors/nurses chiming in to tell him he’s wrong in saying “atraumatic” does not mean “without trauma” and he’d just reiterate it, and then the medical peeps would be like, no, i’m a doctor you lousy racist SOB and i’m telling you you’re wrong” then he’d just post it again with copy pasted dictionary definitions of “atraumatic”… my god those were frustrating, and so many of them I had to write using my phone while my other half was using the computer (i’ve since bought a laptop).

        it would be really interesting for me as a sociologist to hear your own recollections of what it was like debating the Fogenites and trolls like mat(t)(t) rugar: how did it make you feel to encounter such delusional racists probably for the first time? how do you recall the experience emotionally? did it change your views and perspectives of the online world as its own virtual space, its own society with its own sociology? has the experience of getting to know other posters through shared conviction changed how you relate to people in real, physical space, life? I would say probably each of us has a good story about going up against the same Zidiot day after day on the same topic.

        As most of you know, I’m a sociologist, so it would be really meaningful for me to try and “do” some sociology on your experiences to see if we can find patterns or links or recurring tropes that suggest a shared characteristic we possess that has drawn us so closely to this case. many of you are trial-watchers anyway, but for the others: what is it about us that turned us into Florida v. Zimmerman fanatics?

        that would make an awesome paper, probably easy to publish too because this kind of thing sells in today’s pre-post-post-modern academia.

      • Puck says:

        er, FBI says Zimmerman’s NOT racist

        A thread dedicated to our sharing of our experience would be kinda neat, especially on the eve of the trial we’ve been waiting for – it just pops into your head throughout the day: my goodness i can’t wait for that trial!

        we are all there now. we have formed our own communities on countless blogs and forums – and yes, this includes the CTH – all because of that certain something that has drawn us all to this case – but what is that something? i’d like to find out.

      • aussie says:

        Malisha — Then they can say “records from AT&T, SMS messages and geo-location data”. Great language, English, 4 or 5 times the vocabulary size of any other. 😉

        Rachael — that’s why. “fair trial” means fair to the defendant, not realy FAIR fair. The sealed data is FACTUAL EVIDENCE. To provide a fair trial, the public (ie jury pool) should not be exposed to it too soon. The BS they came up with against Trayvon is BS and always was BS and always will be BS, so there’s no great damage to the trial from it, because at the trial none of it is admissible. Well, in the long run there is, ‘cos it makes them look like the racist idiots they are, but they brought it on themselves.

    • willisnewton says:

      I hope you are willing to settle for two out of three. I don’t think it’s likely that GPS records are going to tell us much.

      But deductive reasoning tells us he chased the teen with his car before chasing him on foot. IMO that speaks to intent and shows anything that happened in the missing minutes was a deliberate act of aggression.

      • Puck says:

        Right, but I think West was referring to how the actual physical altercation started, and that the state can prove that. Or maybe he was just babbling.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree with your deductive reasoning, willis.

        The night of February 26, it seem to me, that gz revealed to the dispatcher his intent and his mission………..”These a$$h@les, they always get away.”

        He told the dispatcher in a quiet tone that indicated that the current system of just watching and reporting was flawed because they ALWAYS get away.

        The implication was that he would do things differently……that is, he would do MORE than just watch.

      • Puck says:

        or perhaps:

        these assholes, they always get away because you don’t get your cops here fast enough, so i’m going to chase him down and detain him for you, and i’ll be a hero.

      • Puck says:

        and “see? i got what it takes to be a cop! lemme try again”

      • colin black says:

        Global Positioning Sattilites can pin point your location to the millimetre.
        So if both Trayvons phone an foggagges blackberry definitely has gps.

        It will be possible to track there movements on the night.

        There not like cell tower locations that give only an aprox position they give exact position
        An could reveal every thing.

  49. Dennis says:

    I agree that our society is more racist and sexist than most are willing to accept–myself most definitely included–but isn’t it possible, professor, that you’re overcompensating?

    Owens and Reich are so far outside the scientific community in their conclusions and approach in this case as to be laughable. In fact, Owens is such a layman here that he needed to call the manufacturer when he hit what should’ve been a foreseen snag with software he apparently doesn’t understand.

    How could anyone have considered these men acceptable experts if they’re viewing this case dispassionately?

    • cielo62 says:

      Dennis- really now. Does a radiologist (who us very highly paid MD) who can’t fix a broken X ray machine disqualified as an expert? So Owen didn’t know about the machine; so what? He INTERPRETS the data! That’s his area of expertise. And they are not fringe crackpots; their professional props are extensive.


  50. Sleuth says:

    According to body language experts we can tell a lot about people based on their body language. I have longed believed in this method and have applied it while following this case. Our visual queues, combined with our hearing, can help us better gleam other significant “unspoken” confessions being said.

    Nellie Nell, and many of us here, have picked up on is his very high propensity for lying, and she gave us just one example of this behavior when she indicated in her earlier post pointing out how often he touches his nose.

    Below is an example of how I have applied this method. Now this is just one of my theories, although I also believe kickback could really be the cause, just don’t know how the State can prove it and this point.

    REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST A THEORY, and I beg your indulgence. Thank you.

    Sleuth says:
    June 21, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    I believe Johnny boy (witness #6) might have bust him upside his big azz head in order to get him off of Trayvon, then ran back inside to call 911.

    Just meditate on his bullshyte lines:

    “I yelled for help, but NOBODY WOULD (hint: is John) come and HELP ME” (remember, it’s all about him).

    And in the so called re-enactment video, as he states this same bullshyte he turns slightly backwards, to the right, and points in the direction of John’s back door/patio door.

    Then he also said, “then SOMEBODY came with a flashlight” and asked if he needed them to call 911. And he told them, “No, I’ve already called them, JUST HELP ME restrain this guy”, or something to that effect.

    While making this statement, he gestures, ever so slightly to the left, towards the direction from which witness #13, Jeremy, and the police officer came. If true, this indicates SOMEBODY DID come to help him. So, again he lied.

    He either received help or he didn’t.

    John is: Nobody Would
    Me is: The confessed murder

    Jeremy is: Somebody Did

    P. S. In addition to failing to mention he was on the phone, had pictures taken of his head, he also failed to mention he asked witness #13, Jeremy to call his wife.

    • willisnewton says:

      Many things are possible. What GZ says happened is not possible.

      Absent a full and credible confession, we just aren’t ever going to know. May as well get used to it

      • Sleuth says:


        You’re absolutely right when you say:

        “What GZ says happened is not possible”.

        I guess I’m hoping for a “Jerry Sandusky” moment such as the day when his adopted testified AGAINST him at the last minute.

        While I’m certain the SAO already have enough evidence against the confessed murderer to convict him, even without the voice experts testimony, justice would be even sweeter if one of the witnesses, or anybody, showed up at the 11th hour with undeniable proof that they inflicted those very minor head wounds.

    • boyd says:

      if I am innocent I’m leaving nothing out of my story.
      I would be able to give you details galore.

      that re-enactment was so bullsheet

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen gave details galore — impossible ones.

        “And when I shimmied my jacket came up…”
        Ridiculous. You could feel your jacket coming up when you were being beaten to death?

        “And I feel like he saw my gun…”
        Preposterous. He’s bashing your head and smothering you and because of a wardrobe fail he checks out your hip and “sees” your CONCEALED weapon in the dark?

        “And to tell you the truth I had forgotten I had my gun…”
        That’s the best one of all. Priceless. You don’t leave home without it!

        “And I pinched his hand and took out my gun and aimed carefully to make sure I didn’t hit my other hand and I fired one shot…”
        Right. But you finally did get something right. “fired one shot.”

      • boyd says:

        “And I pinched his hand and took out my gun and aimed carefully to make sure I didn’t hit my other hand and I fired one shot…”
        Right. But you finally did get something right. “fired one shot.”

        that’s when the recoil of the gun caused the gun to hit him in the nose.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Idiot Foggen just told on himself there! He learned “wrist control” at Kokocapelli’s fighting gym for the martial arts. Therefore, once he gained wrist control by pinching Trayvon’s wrist, any fighting was over and done with right then and there. You don’t draw a loaded deadly weapon on an unarmed kids, when you have applied a wrist control technique. He could have held Trayvon indefinitely and the police would be there in just 3 more minutes.

          I don’t know what to make of it but, on gz’s previous calls, police response to RATL seems to average about 8 minutes. On this call it takes them closer to 10 minutes. It also appears that Ofc. Smith was on TTL when the gun was fired. Of course, this could just be misreported times.

      • Sleuth says:


        Same here. Serino would have to issue a gag order against me to shut me up. I wouldn’t be leaving any stones unturned.

        I said the same thing about those bullshyte videos. Now we know why Serino was wearing those sunglasses; trying to hide his disbelief in what he was seeing.

      • Sleuth says:


        Yep, he sure did give “details galore”, that he thought supported his twisted narrative, while conveniently FORGETTING factual ones.

        You might as well add “I have a terrible memory” to your “Priceless Moments List”.

        Remember this one, “Zimmerman told the detective he takes medication for an attention deficit disorder and that he has a “terrible memory.”

        Darn that adderall!

      • Sleuth says:


        YOU SAID: “……that’s when the recoil of the gun caused the gun to hit him in the nose”.

        That’s the same thing I said last April (2012) and was met by quite a few doubters as that being a possible cause for his itty-bitty scratches on his head and face. I was surprised by their responses.

        Injuries caused by kickback/re-coil are quite common, and doctors and hospital emergency room staff s are very familiar with these type of injuries. I strongly believe this is why he refused 3x to be taken to the hospital.

      • Dave says:

        I’m rather tired of repeating my opinion of the “recoil-induced bloody nose” theory, but I thought you might enjoy this video that shows a KelTec PF9 in the hands of someone who knows what he’s doing.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      The fact that he is this unbelievable liar, sadly we we may possibly never know where the boo boos came from. I have heard kick back from the gun out there which I like to lean towards. I just don’t know enough about guns.

      I do think that the scratches to the back of his head came from one of the trees between the rows of buildings as he ran to cut Trayvon’s path, sadly we may never know that either.

      What we do know is that the murderer is a liar and nothing that HE says can be taken as truth. If only the people that did see more have had over a year to cleanse themselves to say what they did actually see and/or do, we just may get to the bottom of the boo boos.

      It is funny that some came to aid, but was told by the murderer not to call for police help. It just does not make any sense at all.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Nellie Nell

      YOU SAID: “….sadly we we may possibly never know where the boo boos came from”.

      That’s so very true, but I’m hoping and praying that someone will come forward with evidence to prove how his injuries were caused, although I don’t it’s required in order for the State to prove their burden.

      YOU SAID: “I just don’t know enough about guns”.

      That’s okay, especially when you consider he allegedly had previous training with shooting guns, although his buddy, Oysterman said he was getting a little better with them.

      Thinking about how he demonstrated that he used his right hand (his less dominant hand) to fire the gun, would explain why some people believe his injuries were caused by kickback.

      Using his less dominant hand would give him less control of the gun once its fired, especially using the cheaply made Kel-tec 9mm he used which has tons of re-coil.

      YOU SAID: “It is funny that some came to aid, but was told by the murderer not to call for police help. It just does not make any sense at all”.

      Same thing I thought when he said that. It gave me the impression that he thought, or knew, Trayvon was still alive, and did not seek any assistance to help him, but instead begged for SOMEBODY (witness #13, Jeremy) to help him restrain the kid he just shot. I think his actions were a serious form of negligence, and would not be surprised if this comes up during the trial.

      • Rachael says:

        “It gave me the impression that he thought, or knew, Trayvon was still alive, and did not seek any assistance to help him, but instead begged for SOMEBODY (witness #13, Jeremy) to help him restrain the kid he just shot.”

        To me that doesn’t show at all that he thought or knew Travyon was still alive. To me it shows he knew he was dead, but like the goofy bandages on his head props, was trying to make it look like a dead guy was still fighting a and dangerous in order to bolster his self-defense claim.

        Regardless, either way, he did not seek help or assistance for Trayvon or check him for anything other than weapons – certainly not for injuries and attempt aid.

        So yes, dead or alive, his actions were neglegent and he knew it.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Don West is mangling gz’s carefully planned series of excuses and claims, it’s giving gz the creeps just listening to him, he looks like he about ready to jump out of his skin, since he knows these things cannot be substantiated while other claims come out of time and place.

          West went on about how a person being straddled is helpless, because it’s an MMA maneuver that is designed to do just that to the person on the bottom. Then he went on to demonstrate how Trayvon was sitting their on top of gz, banging his head on the pavement, then throwing a series of vicious MMA style blows, that brought gz to within an inch or seconds of losing his life. gz didn’t approve of that at all and you could actually see him cringing during West’s remarks.

          LOL!!! He’s Toast and he knows it!

          Justice for Trayvon
          Hoodies up!!!
          |||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||

  51. colin black says:

    The Jury is humoungous an dangerous.

    Just like the accused defendant then.

    Seriously does faux news corp think tellin six female jurours there over weight is going to endea them to the acused?


  52. colin black says:

    LOL!! Love it!

    That come with a Kevlar lined sporn?!!

    Nope sporrans are for dress kilts I have one for my Blackwatch Tartan Kilt…..

    My cammo one is for comfort a ulittilty kilt I have one already in BLACK .

    They are about the most comfortable thing a man can wear.
    I might even go commando in my commando Kilt.

    • Rachael says:

      One of my instructors at school wears one every day. I’ll never be able to look at him the same now. But you know, if I were a judge, I would probably go commando under those big hot black robes.

    • cielo62 says:

      colin~ Commando in your commando kilt? Aren’t afriad of chaffing?

    • fauxmccoy says:


      the fashion industry occasionally introduces some new version of a ‘man skirt’ that never really takes off. honestly, i find skirts to be the most comfortable thing in my wardrobe and wear them often. glad you do too 🙂 the kilt is a glorious garment!

    • ay2z says:

      Colin, sporrans, got the corrected word and spelling, thanks.

      If you must go commando when we are all here watching trial, you know we will all have your back!!

  53. Sleuth says:

    LLMPapa, Thank you once again for helping to lift the blinders off for those who are too ignorant and too blinded by racist attitudes to see the truth. All I can say is, Wow! You’ve out done yourself again!

    IIRC, Ms. Corey put the defense on notice that the State may use the Sean Hannity interview. Do you, or anybody else here know if they will?

    • colin black says:

      For sure they will use it Bernie entered it into evidence and called it a gift for the prosecution.
      Remamber the prosecution used Jodi arrias 49 hours interview against her in her recent trial.

      • colin black says:

        48 hours interview.

      • Sleuth says:

        “……Bernie entered it into evidence and called it a gift for the prosecution”.

        Yeah……you’re right. He did say that. I have been following the Jodi Arias trial, and yes, they did allow the 48 Hours interview. Just more good news for us, and the Fulton/Martin family.

        Thanks Colin.

      • Sleuth says:

        And while I’m here, let me wish you a Happy Birthday!

        May it be the first day, of the best days of your life! 🙂 🙂 🙂

      • Rachael says:

        Upthread a ways was a post about GZ asking for some water because of his broken nose and how he put that in there just for props because you don’t need to ask for water or a reason to have it. But it was his way of being able to just “slip” that in there.

        Well with respect to the Hannity interview, have y’all noticed when he starts to talk about what his usual Sunday is about, he just starts talking about it and then like he’s forgotten his script, he goes back and remembers to insert mentoring the children – don’t wanna leave that out you know.

        He almost forgot to get that in there – with his memory problems and all you know.

  54. ic2fools says:

    Does anyone know a site I can live stream the trial from tomorrow on my android?
    I’ve been having playback problems with wft and wild about trial on my android.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Click Orlando has a downloadable app for iPhones. Not sure about androids.

    • Rachael says:

      If it is a new(er) android, flashplay or whatever it is, is no longer supported and you can’t even get it in the app store – so you have to find it online. I had to go through this. I’ll see if I can find the link. I found it by asking the right question on YouTube I think, or maybe out on the net, but I’ll look for the link. Once you download it, it works fine.

      • ic2fools says:

        Rachel yes it is new I just got this Mother’s Day its a Samsung victory and I did go to the App Store to download the app for each WFT and wild about trial and I could not get either one to play correctly. she’s my first Android.

      • ic2fools says:

        Rachel thanks for the help. I will also look on my computer for that information. I didn’t even think of that because I’ve had no problems with playback with anything else I want to watch on this Android, just the live stream of the trial.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      you can go to the google play store, search for the ‘zimmerman’ app and download. i think it was made available by local station WESH, it works, at least on my android.

      • cielo62 says:

        It’s commercial-free. The only drawback is the icon is Zimermman’s name and face on your android.


        • fauxmccoy says:

          cielo says

          It’s commercial-free. The only drawback is the icon is Zimermman’s name and face on your android.

          well, yeah, there is that and it’s a major turnoff. it will be deleted at the nearest available opportunity, i assure you. as i’m a stay at home, disabled mom i rarely have any need of it… but i do get the occasional calls for assistance from my elderly mother who’s just a mile down the road – i keep the app for emergency purposes only.

      • Rachael says:

        It still won’t work unless you have flash player installed. BDTD. I was very angry and called Samsung – and they were the ones who explained it. But like I said, I looked up Galaxy S4 and flash player on the internet and was able to download it that way because you can’t even get it in the app store (google play) anymore. 😦

      • ic2fools says:

        @Rachel, Trained Observer, fauxie

        Thank ya’ll, I found it strange fogen trial is the only stream I have playback problems with on my android. Your suggestions have help fix that problem.

        Thanks again!

  55. LLMPapa says:

    Thank You Judge Nelson.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t need anything more. Again – don’t need no experts, just common sense. GZ said he couldn’t breathe. If you can’t breathe, you can’t scream.

      You can’t scream if you can’t breathe.

      So it sure as HELL wasn’t GZ screaming.

      And when your lungs collapse, and fill with fluid, you can’t breathe.

      The screaming stopped as soon as the shot goes off.

      It is like I keep saying.

      Screaming – gunshot – silence.

      I don’t need much more – but of course there is more – GZ’s own admission of following for no reason when he had already called the police.

      • Rachael says:

        And thank you for that picture at the end. It is a simple case, really. It doesn’t take experts. It doesn’t take Mr. West to hold it up an extra week. It really doesn’t even take MUCH common sense – just a little.

        Listen to GZ’s words – his very own words. His lies tell the truth about everything.

    • Rachael says:

      LLMPapa, I wish your videos could be entered into evidence. Lawyers are wordy and take up SO much court time. You say so much with very few words and you make it SOOOOOO clear!!!

      • Nef05 says:

        100%, Rachael. I have often thought that LLMPapa’s videos, with their ability to juxtapose fogen’s nonsense with actual reality and evidence, are outstanding.

        Lawyers can draw pictures with words (BDLR is good at it, too), but they are never so clear and definitive as when LLMPapa shows them back to back, side by side, and one on top of the other. The lies are, quite simply, indisputable.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I also wish LLMPapa’s videos could be entered into evidence.

      • Puck says:

        If the defense has been consulting the CTH, then the state could very well have been following reality-based, evidence-based blogs like this and bcclist and whonoze’s, and LLMPapa’s and others’ videos.

    • Nef05 says:

      Powerful, LLMPapa. On point (as usual) and the silence before and after the dispatcher’s words is deafening. The State will indeed take it from here.

    • Sophia33 says:

      More so than the “It doesn’t even sound like me” is when Zimmerman says “No” to Serino before that. When Serino first said “That’s you” He said, “No”.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. Your video caused the mountain to tremble again. GZ’s mountain of lies is coming down in the morning starting with the State’s opening statement.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Excellent video, LLMPapa.

        And, did you notice that gz said nothing about any pain when his nose was being pressed on in an attempt to smother him?

        gz: “He was like putting ALL HIS WEIGHT on my nose and my mouth.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        oops, gz, didn’t you say your nose was broken?

    • Nellie Nell says:

      This certainly has helped me to realize that experts were not necessary anyway. So while it appeared to be a win for the defense, any decent non bias person will know who was screaming. The women of the jury will know who was begging for their life.

      Thanks Papa

    • kllypyn says:

      there you go he said his gun was at his waist on his right rear hip. he would never been able to grab it the way he described while on his back supposedly getting beaten up. unless he knocked trayvon off the stood up grabbed his gun and shot trayvon. which is highly unlikely. he already had his gun out and trayvon made no effort to hit him,he simply tried to escape.. how much more obvious do lies need to be?

    • diary73 says:

      We also have young Austin who said he heard screaming, then a gunshot, then the screaming stopped.

  56. ks says:

    Thanks for the dailykos article linked upthread. It’s great though I wished I had a dailykos account so I could jump on the Zidiot who’s playing the “it’s not illegal to follow someone” game.

    I HATE that disingenuous nonsense that pretends that GZ was just some passive observer who was “just following” TM. When in reality he expressed open hostility toward TM, followed him in his car and chased after him on foot before confronting him,

    What really irritates me about the “following” nonsense besides the above is that the people who usually spout it are playing games and are not as remotely as clever as they are trying to be. As if legal acts can’t be part and parcel of an illegal act and like you can simply isolate or compartmentalize acts and ignore the total flow of events. Ppffttt!!

    • Puck says:

      Is the Zidiot you refer to “coffeetalk”? S/he is apparently a lawyer. I have a pending comment (two links, argh) with him or her restating the whole thing about the state having to prove it was not self-defense if the defense makes a prima facie case that it was. (But since the comment will have to be moderated by the Prof or Crane, then it will get his attention.)

      There’s at least one other Zidiot in that thread.

      • ks says:

        Yes that’s the one. Smug and lecturing to the nth degree and avoiding the relevant issues and GZ’s actions/claims, while spouting long-winded legalese. It looks like “RobertSF” is on the case over there.

      • RobertSF says:

        Ha, ha! Thanks ks. Your comment made me go look at Daily Kos.

    • Malisha says:

      And of course, following someone is not illegal, and asking them questions including inappropriate questions is not illegal, and finding them suspicious when they’re not suspicious is not illegal, and even profiling them is not illegal (unless you’re a state agent and you’re profiling them as a way of depriving them of their rights) BUT

      All that is not illegal if that’s all you are doing. Of course, aiming and shooting them in the heart with a hollowpoint bullet after you get them immobilized in a “wrist control” position IS illegal. Fogen is not being CHARGED with following, suspecting, or any other crime, ONLY with Murder-2.

    • elcymoo says:

      If you want an account, ks, just go up to the top right of the page and sign up for one. I had one in the past, but rarely commented there; I use the site mostly to access links to MSM articles on current topics. My account info probably needs updating.

    • aussie says:

      Yeah, like it’s not illegal to walk into a bank. It is not illegal to take money out of a bank. Not even illegal to ask the teller to GIVE you some money.

      Oh, oops… you walked in with a mask ( hey that’s not illegal, nobody gets charged for that on Halloween) and the request to the teller was at gunpoint? well, so what, it was a licensed gun???

      Yeah I’m sure that would wash with most juries…………..

  57. Sophia33 says:

    @You all have thoughtful comments:

    Thank you for the links.

  58. pat deadder says:

    I think JN was very careful with this ruling after the higher court overturned her ruling about defense being able to depose B.Crump.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Has Crump been deposed yet, or did the defense lose interest once the overturn came down?

      • Malisha says:

        Lost interest because all they were allowed to ask about was what they knew wouldn’t do them a damn bit of good. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

  59. ZCBest says:

    I really like the way Natalie Jackson tweets.

    Natalie Jackson ‏@NatJackEsq 10m
    After going back over my outlines of evid. released n case; GZ SHD GO 2 PRISON 4 being a child-killing, scream-stealing liar w/ no remorse.

    • elcymoo says:

      Natalie Jackson has it right. The defense team has been frantically trying to depict Trayvon as anything but a child. Mark O’Mara even held a discussion with the prospective jurors to plant the seed in their minds that the life of a 17-year-old is no more valuable than anyone else’s, even though he knows that minors are accorded special protections under the law.

    • Malisha says:

      Over at the Outhouse some people claimed that I was pretending “Malisha” was a 65-year-old Jewish white woman and really “Malisha” was Natalie Jackson. HA HA HA! Now that I read her tweet, I am even more flattered than ever before by this misinformation! I should look ten percent as good as she does, be five percent as successful, and half as smart and I’d be riding on top of the world!

      • Xena says:


        Over at the Outhouse some people claimed that I was pretending “Malisha” was a 65-year-old Jewish white woman and really “Malisha” was Natalie Jackson.

        You mean they changed from alleging you are a paralegal who works in the law offices of Parks & Crump? LOL!!

      • LOL! They are such clowns. One of the treehouse people came to 3ChicsPolitico and accused me of being ic2fools & one other poster. There is no use in arguing with them. No one deserves that kind of torture.

      • ZCBest says:

        These people are nuts for real for real!

        Yes, indeed a woman to admire for sure. Thank the nutjobs for the compliment!!! 😉

  60. elcymoo says:

    @Sophia: You’re right, the entire family is dysfunctional and dishonest. It looks like most of them held themselves out to be white, right up to the point where it was a disavantage to be viewed that way. George certainly did.

  61. YQ says:

    Another thing I wanted to air out is concerning the Police Department’s use of 8 bit (low quality) recordings. If what is being said in that Frye Hearing is that 8 bit isn’t the best quality to determine whose screams it is or to do audio forensics, then why on earth are they still using 8 bit? You can record in 32 bit float as of 10 years ago. That’s 4 times less the rate of digital pixelation within the audio.

    I’m calling BS on that. This defense guy, (whoever he was from England or whatever) his standards are not the same as what we do here in the US. How was he even validated to testify in a trial in the US? Nobody questioned what the standards are over there compared to here? Yes, true that all audio is audio, but they don’t work like we do.

    • ay2z says:

      Reich was told by SPD and the other source if any, through I think he said, was the SAO, that the recording was 16 bit.

      I don’t recall, and could have missed it, ithat there was ever anything offered as proof of actual file quality in raw form, aside from defense speculation.

      (if the defense had issues with file quality of the original recordings made, that seems to be all that matters if it is 8 bit, that the defense get documentation about that and use it in Frye– seems straightforward enough to do that, unless they wanted only to be in a position to speculate.)

      • YQ says:

        I see… I’d like to think that it was recorded in 8 bit and converted into 16 bit. The reason why I think so is because 16 bits creates the problem having enough space to store, and that so many are naive about the issues of working with digital audio. I bet they figured that since phone quality is terrible enough it wouldn’t hurt the issue further to record all of those 911/NEN calls in 8 bit. But you can’t leave it to the bare ears of the jury because people without the experience of listening to tape are going to have a subjective opinion, even if you bought them all a pair of Sony MDRs and made them listen thoroughly they will still have an opinion. You need an expert opinion, because at some point someone’s opinion will have to be relied upon.

        “The audio can be analyzed, but the results would not be reliable.”

        Yes, the audio could be analyzed and Owen analyzed it. If Dr. French really meant what he said, he’d be out of work, and anyone with a decent pair of ears could do his job. That’s some straight up BS. This is telling a whole generation of audio students that there won’t be any meaningful work in Audio Forensics. All it takes is for some dude half-way across the world to say that your methods are not plausible and then BANG, all the work you put in is for naught.

      • Rachael says:

        YQ – did you see LLMPapa’s video down aways? You really don’t need an expert.

        GZ said he couldn’t breath because he was being suffocated by Trayvon. You yourself said there are texbooks on human sound. So I’m sure you understand the physiology inovlved. If you are being suffocated, you can’t get air in, you can’t get air out. Therefore, you can’t scream. So how was GZ screaming?

        The same thing works with the gunshot. You shoot someone in the heart and lung and their lungs collapse, you may get some sound of whatever air is left coming out, but not being able to get any air in or air out, the screaming would stop.

        How is it GZ was screaming while being smothered and Trayvon stopped screaming once shot?

        Does that REALLY take an expert?

    • ZCBest says:

      poignantly appropriate

    • Rachael says:

      Excellent article! Thank you.

      “Robert Zimmerman Sr. will be remembered for fathering a son who took the life of someone else’s son. And for blaming the victim for being black.”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen’s sperm donor, Robert Zimmerman Sr. (if indeed he is the bio father), has said blacks are the true racists.

        Well, let us see how this all-white (or nearly so) jury ends up judging his killer son..

      • elcymoo says:

        I find Robert Sr.’s claims more than a little odd, given Robert Jr.’s insistence that son George has ‘Afro-Peruvian roots’.

      • Sophia33 says:


        I can’t reply to you any other way. But you are sooo very right about their “Afro-Peruvian” claims. Why would they blame black people. That family is screwed up.

    • colin black says:


      colin black says:

      June 22, 2013 at 1:29 pm

      Picture of colin black

      Pistol shot rang out in the dark off night
      Enter witness 6 from the darknes an ziman begs him and all
      He sees the CHILD in a pool of blood
      Cries out “My God he killed HIM AFTER all”
      Here comes the story of the INOCCENT CHILD
      The BOY the authorities came to blame
      For something that he never done
      Put him in a COFFINl but one time he could-a been.
      Anything at all if only he hadn’t been so tall

      One bodie lying there does Jon see
      And another man named zimmerman moving around mysteriously
      “I didn’t do it” he says and he throws up his hands
      “I was saveing the neighbourhood I hope you understand
      I saw him running” he says and he stops
      “One of us had better call up the cops”
      And so Jon calls the cops
      And they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashing
      In the hot Florida night.

      Eight in the evening and they haul zimman in
      Take him not to the hospital and they bring him upstairs
      The barely wounded man looks up through his one lieing eye
      Says “Wha’d you bring him in here for ? I ain’t the guy !”
      Yes here comes the story of the Hurricane
      The man the authorities came to blame
      For something that he never done
      Put in a COFFIN but one time he could-a been
      Anything in the world.

      Two months later the ghettos are not in flame
      Trayvons Parents are all over America fighting for his name
      While zimerclan still in the robbery game
      And the cops are putting the screws to him looking for somebody to blame
      “Remember that murder that happened in a dog walk”
      “Remember you said you saw the mma beatdown?”
      “You think you’d like to play ball with the law ?”
      “Think it might-a been that fighter you saw running that night ?”
      “Don’t forget that you are white”.

      Arthur witt 6 said “I’m really not sure”
      Cops said “A boy like you could use a break

      Now you don’t wanta have to go back to jail be a nice fellow
      You’ll be doing society a favor
      That sonofabitch is brave and getting braver
      We want to put his ass on a pedistal
      We want to pin this medal for murder murder on him
      He is a sqeaky clean Merican “.

      Trayvon could take a man out with just one punch
      But he never did like to talk about it all that much
      It’s my hobby he’d say and I do it just to say
      When it’s over I’d just as soon go on my way
      Up to some paradise
      Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice
      And ride a horse along a trail
      But then they took him to the mourge
      Where they try to turn a Child into a lous
      Whom didn’t deserve to make it back to his house.

      All of Trayvons cards were marked in advance
      The trial was a pig-circus he never had a chance
      The judge made zimans witnesses drunkards like taffe all of them scum
      To the white folks who watched he was a vigilante bum
      And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger hater
      No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
      And though they could produce the gun
      The DNA said he was the one who did the deed
      And the all-FEMALE jury agreed.

      The crime was murder 2 ‘one’ guess who testified
      Ziman an his Father and they both baldly lied
      And the newspapers they all went along for the ride
      How can the life of such a man
      Be in the palm of some fool’s hand ?
      To see him obviously gain fame
      Couldn’t help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
      Where justice is a game.

      Now all the criminals in their coats and their ties
      Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise
      While zimann sits like Buddha in a ten-foot cell
      An GUILTY man in a living hell
      That’s the story of the child THEY DEFAMED
      But it won’t be over till they clear his name
      And give him back the RIGHOUS NAME he’s done
      Put him in a COFFIN but one time he could-a been
      The champion of the world.

      Please don’t sue me Bob

      I tried to copy it right ….


      • Deborah Moore says:

        I just love Bob’s song, and that’s one of my favorite albums.
        Love your Today Version.
        Thanks so much.
        You did this well, well in the correct vein.
        Bless you.

    • Sophia33 says:

      That was a great article. I forgot that Dylan’s name was also Robert Zimmerman. Never made the connection. And the two could not be more polar opposites. Dylan has been on the side of justice and equality his whole life.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Oh, my gosh. I hadn’t made that connection either.
        Well done, sister. (May I call you sister?
        Guess what I’m gonna put on the stereo?
        I really do Lurve that album.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @deborah moore

          that bit of irony (dylan’s name being robert zimmerman) connected with my brain cells from the beginning. i think i’ve listened to more dylan in the last 18 months than ever before.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dylan & Baez — made it through many a late night study session iat coffee shops during school years with them doing background.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Wow! How cool is that, T.O. !

      • Sophia33 says:


        You can all call me sister? Because that is what we all are, regardless of where we come from.

    • type1juve says:

      Excellent article, thanks for linking it!

    • Sophia33 says:

      The song about Emmett Till is something I will never forget. About 14 or 15 years ago, I met Emmett Till’s mother. She worked with youth in Chicago and frequented a restaurant called Edna’s on the West side of Chicago. She sometimes brought the kids in there to eat. Amazing woman. And I am so honored to have met her briefly. It was before cell phones really had cameras and I remember thinking that I was gonna get a disposable camera for the next time I saw her in there. I never did. But the memory will always be with me.

      Edna’s is a restaurant in Chicago that has great historical significance. The woman who started it fed Dr. King when he came to Chicago in 1966. It would be (and still is) no big deal for you to walk in and see many of the major city and state politicians, black or white, in there on any given day of the week. One of my first jobs out of college was on the same block as Edna’s. So I went there a lot at lunch.

      When you walk in, and if you were really young like I was at the time, the waitresses made sure you know your history. I never will forget when the waitress brought my biscuits (which you must have) and whispered to me, “Do you know who that is?”. The face looked familiar but I couldn’t place it. Then she said, “That’s Emmett Till’s mother”. I HAD to walk to her and shake her hand. I told her thank you and really could remember little else because I was so in awe of her. Despite, the years, she still looked great. I think the most amazing thing about her was this peace she had about her. Kind of soft spoken, which I didn’t expect. But make no mistake her power was there.

      One time I went back and had the same waitress and told her that I had all of these questions for Mrs. Till-Mobley. And she told me that I should have asked them. It was just in that moment, I was so in awe. I did not want to sound like a bubbling idiot and I didn’t want to intrude. The waitress told me that Mrs. Till-Mobley would have welcomed my questions. A missed opportunity I will always regret.

      While I never got that picture with Mrs. Till-Mobley, I am so glad I shared space with her that one day at Edna’s.

  62. elcymoo says:

    From Daily Kos today:

    Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 06:30 AM PDT


    A tale of two Zimmermans: A radical and a racist

  63. smokeegyrl says:

    I know a lot of Trayvon Martin Supporters do not believe in Prayer or God and that is okay because I don’t knock anyone’s beliefs and if you don’t keep the Martin Family in thought but those that do… We are passing this prayer around from our neighboring Word Press friend. “DothProtest TooMuch”.

    Tomorrow it gets real. We are finally here. Please join me in saying a prayer for the Martin/Fulton family as they venture into these difficult weeks ahead.

    Father, I pray for Tracy, Sybrina, Jahvaris and others in their circle of family and friends who are grieving.

    They’re hurting for many reasons, and I ask You to help them through this season of loss. I reach out to You, the Father of compassion and the source of every comfort, asking You to touch them with Your unfailing love and kindness. Be their God who comforts them as they’re going through their struggles, and bring them through the tough things ahead. Come alongside them in their pain, and strengthen them so they’ll continue to be able to help others who face the same struggles. (2 Corinthians 1:3–4, Psalm 33:22, 1 Samuel 20:14a)

    You’re close to people whose hearts are breaking, those who are discouraged and have given up hope. May You who see their troubles and grief respond when they cry out. (Psalm 34:18, 10:14a, 17)

    When they’re hurting, help them find their joy in You, for it’s Your joy that will be their strength. Help them to trust You as their God of hope. Fill them with Your joy, peace, and hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Help them experience the love, joy, and peace that are the results of His life in them, no matter what they’re going through. (Nehemiah 8:10b, Romans 15:13, Galatians 5:22)

    May they sense Your presence in this time of need.

    In Jesus’ name, Amen.

    thank you!

    • ic2fools says:


      In Jesus’ name, Amen, we pray Amen….

    • Rachael says:

      For the friends and family of Travon and all of us searching for and supporting justice, you will be in my heart and thoughts always.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I don’t subscribed to religion, but I am very spiritual and that includes prayer. Don’t knew where I would be without all the prayers of those before us.

      So I just say..AMEN!

    • ladystclaire says:

      In Jesus name Amen and Amen. I also pray that GOD will touch the the hearts and minds of those who will be deciding this man’s fate and, make them see this case for what it truly is all about.

      Also may he change the hardest of hearts, when it comes to the racist who subscribe to nothing but pure hate, for your child Trayvon Benjamin Martin who you reclaimed on 2/26/2012.

      I also ask that, you open wide the eyes of these six women so that they may see the evidence in this case for what it really is, and give this child and his family the Justice they so deserve.

    • cielo62 says:

      smokeegyrl~ Thank you for being respectful of our diversity of faith/non religion/ non faith, whatever. I WILL be praying in my own way for ALL of us. This one life has affected us all, and we ALL seek justice, healing and direction going into the future. There are many paths but we travel towards the same goal. Thank you.


  64. Deborah Moore says:

    It’s Sunday morning, can we share mimosas?
    And, what’s the dress code for tomorrow morning?
    Are we all going to wear our hoodies?

  65. YQ says:

    I’m an audio student and I side with Dr. Reich here. No way that those screams were Fogen’s. We studied what he was saying at the Frye Hearing in the Science of Sound. Of course the methods used were not novel or new. There are school textbooks that include the science of human speech. Don’t understand why they teach us this as part of the Audio Engineering course of studies if it can’t be used. SMH.

  66. Nellie Nell says:

    Hello All,

    This morning I am watching the voice stress test video of the murderer. At 18:45 the murderer rubs his “broken nose” without thought or pain! Amazing how fast his broken nose healed by 6.27.13 at 6:37 PM he can touch that painfully broken nose. At 36:39 he touches it again with a closed fist during a belch. At 50:44, he appears to touch the nose again with a closed fist.

    There are so many inconsistencies in this interview alone that it surprises me that he was not arrested right away. I am also confused about these videos being used during the trail.

    I have never had a broken nose, but have had a broken toe before. With my broken middle toe, I could barely walk on it for the 1st 3 or 4 days and could not put on a shoe for over 2 weeks. I had to wear one of those ugly boots.

    • Malisha says:

      HAHAHA Nellie that’s right! Good CATCH!

      He should have worn one of those ugly boots on his face — forever!

    • colin black says:

      Not only that he sports sunglasses on his way into the police station.
      Sunglasses on the bridge of his broken nose.

      An yet he still has the stupid knuckle plaster thingies.

      If brains were made of doughnuts he wouldn’t have enough to make the hole in the middle.

    • YQ says:

      Yeah, it’s also bad enough that he wore knuckle bandages for the broken nose.

    • MollyK says:

      I hope that the state investigators are as perceptive as you guys are! Rubbing a broken nose? Wearing sunglasses? What an idiot he is. No wonder he graduated HS almost at the bottom of his class and no wonder he couldn’t make it through CC.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Certified idiot…… 302 out of 338 rank with a 1.28 GPA…. What a clown that thought himself smart enough to talk his way out of murder! He makes me sick!

    • ZCBest says:

      Broke my nose in 2011. Hurt like a witch! Didn’t touch it, hurt to sneeze or even breathe hard. Couldn’t event find a comfy position to sleep in for fear of hurting my broken nose. The ER didn’t bandage my nose. They told me to add ice to the surrounding area that was swollen and gave me some very nice pain killers!

      Fogen is an effing liar. And a bad one at that. The truth will be revealed.

    • Puck says:

      One thing I noticed in one of the interrogation videos is as soon as they sat down to begin (Fogen and Serino, I think) is Fogen asking if it was okay for him to drink water, presumably because his nose was stuffed up from having been broken and having to breathe through his mouth gave him dry mouth. I forget exactly what he said.

      A person perpetuating a lie (here, broken nose) will use a seemingly innocent, casual, “in passing” statement like this in a deliberate attempt to strengthen and lend credence to the lie. The bandages were flat-out ridiculous and a transparent effort to “prove” the severity and extent of Fogen’s supposed injuries — much like a car accident victim wearing an unneeded neck brace to court (s/he must have whiplash, or else the doctor wouldn’t have “prescribed” one — never mind that you can buy a neck brace at any orthopedic supply store, perhaps even at a drugstore). Fogen’s asking if he can sip water is a far more subtle and insidious way of “proving” his broken nose.

      This struck me right away as a dead giveaway that the broken nose was complete BS but Fogen was really pushing the idea on several levels.

      • Rachael says:

        If they show the reenactment and the jurors haven’t seen it, I hope they burst out laughing when they see those ridiculous knucle bandages and I hope Bernie asks him about them.

        You pointed out a neck brace, but at least a neck brace for a person claiming whiplash makes sense. If someone is complaining of a knee injury, a knee brace and crutches make sense. They look like and are what one would have for their injuries.

        Those are just insane – like something comically overdone on purpose, like a SNL skit or something. How could he possibly think ANYONE would take such props seriously?

      • Tzar says:

        what about this

      • Trained Observer says:

        Puck — Fogen frequently gives indication of thinking he’s a real smootheroo. As you point out with the water, he thought that was a nice touch. Yet the devil is in the phony details he’s supplied with such generosity.

      • Malisha says:

        Nobody has to ask permission for water; that was theater. EVERYBODY is allowed to drink water in any kind of interview. PERIOD. No permission needed, no excuse needed.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        That’s the same video, but he sat there breathing through his nose, with a closed mouth, before and after the “can I drink water” bullshit!

    • Sophia33 says:


      I love you guys. You are on it. The state would be well served had they hired your all to review everything.

    • Tzar says:

      you mean this

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Yep……. I wish I would take the time to learn how to capture the footage!

        Is it okay to despise this lying piece of crap?!?

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Do you think the prosecution will point that out for all the jurors to see? I am sure that at least one person on the jury have suffered a broken bone or knows someone that has. They will be able to look at the liar rubbing an alleged broken nose and know that it is bullshit. Perhaps one of their children had to be nursed and comforted when the suffered a broken nose and so the women will remember how that child or themselves were in so much pain for days. The mere thought of a touch (especially where a cast could not be placed) would make one scream out in pain.

        I sure hope these tapes are played in the courtroom at some point and then he gets drilled on how he could be able to rub his broken nose and rub it hard.

        Sick of him!

  67. disappointed says:

    I worry about West doing opening statements because he lets shit fly out. Every thing JN said would not be allowed he will say regardless. You cannot un-ring the bell. Sure JN can tell them to disregard BUT will they? I trust him about as much as I trust Fogen (at dark with a loaded gun) walking up on a unarmed black teen.
    What will happen to West if he says things he’s not suppose to? A reprimand? If it were jail I would be more inclined to trust him to do the right thing. jmo

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Do we know who will give the opening for the defense?

      • ic2fools says:

        @Deborah, I have been reading that West is to give opening statements.

        • cielo62 says:

          ic2fools~ Who is throwing out 1st pitch for the Prosecution?


          • ic2fools says:


            don’t know, i haven’t seen any reports. i’m hoping its’ Bernie. JMO Bernie would be best to give opening statements.

            I can see the jurors patiently listening to West, watching chew juice dribble out the side of his mouth when he sips water then wipes it with his cuff. Well that it’ll make ya forget everything he just said! Only though is Eeeeewwww with frowns. Jurors taking notes ‘ask if anyone caught what the defense said during opening statement’

          • fauxmccoy says:

            ic2fools says

            I can see the jurors patiently listening to West, watching chew juice dribble out the side of his mouth when he sips water then wipes it with his cuff. Well that it’ll make ya forget everything he just said! Only though is Eeeeewwww with frowns. Jurors taking notes ‘ask if anyone caught what the defense said during opening statement’

            i am not a believer, but i’ll make an exception here — Please God, make it so!

          • ic2fools says:

            My goodness fauxie that visual has been in my mind since I read West is lead for opening statements.

            On a serious tip, Omar is so dirty I had to think why would lead counsel give co-counsel opening statements?

            I would not be surprised if Omar did that for control and sympathy of the jurors. Whether or not West give that sickly act of his or just how overbearing annoyingly he get acting all lost at sea without a compASS!

            Sympathy for fogen defense, seating fogen in a lil’ fidget chair, co-counsel dazed, confused acting like hes’ about to have a damn stroke. Oh woe, poor defense feel sorry for us, bullchite.

            2 and a half more hours and wel’ll know,

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @ic2 — yup just 2.5 more hours to go before we know if mom/west are wearing ear pieces with a direct link to s. cracker esq. 😛

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The prosecution “low balled” their opening, they left the field wide open for the defense to spread their wings. Unfortunately West had no wings to spread, but he certainly had lots of manure!

          • ic2fools says:

            OMG, west is talking about voice experts! wtf! literally i’m about to throw up….

            i know the State is taking note to rebut west lies, unreliable lies. ‘i think’ i don’t know, mess. i’m getting sick

          • ic2fools says:

            west is presenting defense case, not giving opening statement. my goodness its’ 2pm he’ll be at this until at least 3:30pm or 4pm.

          • ic2fools says:

            just stop and stfu west, literally stop. this needs to move along

            he seriously does not need to play the tape again, geez..

          • ic2fools says:

            no he didn’t go there about Tracy Martin, he was in shock as anyone would have been. damnit west! jurors have to see through what defense is trying to do.

            oh he’s about to talk about nbpp, i bet he will….

      • colin black says:

        No but orlando sentinel reports it will be Don West…..

        Could be true could be miss information

        Seeing as M O M is such a HAM I expect him to rise an give opening statement.

        Maybe West will begin an M O M will finnish

        We will find out for sure tomorrow.

        Unless theres a last min plea.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Thanks. We’ll know soon. He could bias the jury further buy continuing to act like a befuddled meany. I’m hearing JN (in my head) giving the jurors instructions to not let West’s disgusting personality prejudice them…ha ha ha.

    • Rachael says:

      The one thing I am pretty sure he will do is talk forever and put everyone to sleep. Instead of taking up just the morning session, he will probably take the whole day.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh it’s even worse than that, disappointed. As West “accidentally” says preplanned taboo words and phrases, he will make a habit of getting corrected, going to the Bench and looking very much like the defense is being treated unfairly, make it look like the prosecution could not win on evidence alone so they had to shackle the defense and make it totally unfair, and he will do this play-acting fussing and fuming and then start speaking again with an injured (mortally wounded) air and express through body language that he is being unfairly and remorselessly restrained and that he is being unfairly hampered in his attempt to defend this poor accused citizen who cannot get a fair trial. Rene and Dershowitz will be putting out bullsh!t about how West’s defense is being hobbled and crippled by an unfair judge in the total sway of the evil Corey. Jeralyn will be wringing her hands and alternately preaching about this being the result of the corrupt FDLE whose only chance of winning is by making it impossible to put on their wonderful witness, Fogen, who should have been able to have his SYG hearing were it not for the machinations and the unfair corrupt manipulations of the prosecution. Every phrase West gets restrained or corrected for will become a “battle cry” of the new confederacy. Watch.

      West has the offending phrases already written down on index cards. The jury will be instructed to disregard them which will work like “Don’t think of a platypus!” And they will be thinking, “hmmm. Wonder why we can’t think of a platypus — what is it about platypuses that we are not supposed to know about — maybe those platypuses are really important and WE are being told to forget about them because WE’re being manipulated like poor West!”

      Load up on your anti-nausea medication.

      • colin black says:

        Don’t mention a platypus


        Because its predudice against my client zimmspin

        Everyone has heard of a duckbilled platyplus.

        An everyone knows that both our client an us his defence team don’t pay our debts.

        In other words we DUCK OUR BILLS.

        So if you mention a platyplus it sends a subliminal message to jurours we duck bills.

      • Malisha says:

        Colin, I need oxygen! You got me laughing harder than when I used to watch the Marx Brothers! STOPPIT STOPPIT! 😆

      • Nellie Nell says:

        We duck our bills….. I despise the defense so much.

        Lots of prayers today for justice for the Martin family.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree with you and he is a low down dirty scoundrel. I know there are going to a gazillion objections. Wasn’t a juror dismissed because he “accidentally” said the jurors real name on television?

    • Nef05 says:

      Good Gracious – I just posted the same thing. Great minds and all that, Disappointed. 🙂

      Of course, I agree, and I’m also wondering if the reason West is doing it is so they can go so far as to need a mistrial (continuance?) and still protect O’Mara.

      It just seems to me O’Mara likes the spotlight too much to give this position up, without a specific reason… Whatever reason that is cannot be good for the prosecution, for obvious reasons…

    • cielo62 says:

      disappointed~ Contempt of court will certainly be an option. HEAVY fines and/or jail time. West better watch his mouth.


  68. Sophia33 says:

    IMHO, in order to win this case, BDLR has to first get the jury to see Trayvon Martin as human. He has to get them to see his parents as human. While everyone feels that there is this maternal instinct that can play to the state’s advantage, I only think it can happen if the state can get these jurors to see Trayvon Martin as a human being first. Because of the things said and done by the other side in this case and while sad in this day and age, I have to wonder if jurors like E6 have to brought to the baseline level of seeing the Martin family as human before any of the other evidence can be absorbed.

    • MollyK says:

      It would be sad if that were necessary. I have said all along that the nightmare jury for the defense would not be a jury of black people but a jury of mothers. That is pretty much what we have. I don’t think any of those 5 mothers will fail to identify strongly with Sybrina, or to see their children in Trayvon.

      • Sophia33 says:


        I wish I could believe that. But I am skeptical. My skepticism comes from considerable life experience. My experience, at times, has been analogous to the scene from the Color Purple where Ms. Millie thought that Sophia’s family were going to attack her. She could not understand Sophia wanting to spend Christmas with her children. She found herself in the exact situation that Sophia was in years before being surrounded by a group of people of a different race and she freaked out. It was impossible for her to relate that experience to how Sophia may have felt. In a more subtle but still equally, hurtful ways that still goes on in some circles. Corporate America was the place for me.

        I have had the unfortunate experience of seeing the message board of the Orlando Sentinel when court is in session. That sentiment of Trayvon and his family being “less than” is rampant on that site. And unfortunately, this is the area where the jurors were picked from. It’s as if it is impossible for many to believe that Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin had the same hopes and dreams for their son as most people do. Some studies have shown that as much as 50 percent of high school kids had smoked pot by the time they graduated. Yet, those kids are looked at as all Americans and Trayvon is looked as a thug. How many kids have pictures on their FB pages of them horsing around. Eighty percent of rap music is bought by white teenagers. Yet, Trayvon’s horsing around makes him a thug. How many people are divorced and co-parent their children? Yet, Trayvon’s father is portrayed as deadbeat. It’s as if they have done everything possible to make this kid less than human.

        On HP I asked the conservatives a questions. I asked them, since Zimmerman had every right to follow Trayvon Martin, if it would be alright if we started to randomly follow their children in the dark. They didn’t know what to say and the few that responded brought up SYG. So in other words, they would want their kids to fight too if they were being followed, but couldn’t see the same thing for Trayvon.

        For this reason I do think that BDLR has to meet the bar, despite the jurors being mothers, of showing Trayvon Martin and his family as human beings. It is tragic. But if he does not do it, I am doubtful of the outcome.

        I feel that he needs to pull a Matthew McConaughey from “A Time to Kill”. “Imagine this teenage boy going to the store to get candy and a drink. Imagine him being followed by a stranger. Imagine him being killed when he was doing nothing wrong. Imagine his lifeless body not far from his father’s doorstep. Can you see him? Can you see him? Now imagine he is white and your son”.

        Considering all that my ancestors went through, I know it would be self-indulgent to not have hope. In the face of worse atrocities than this, had they given up hope, I would not be here. So I remain hopeful, but I also feel the need to point out the obstacles that we still face.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I (we all) need to absorb what you are pointing out to us and fully understand all of the implications.

        This is no time for us to be complacent.

        In addition, we need to be fully cognizant of the erosion of the many gains of the civil rights movement, especially in the last two decades.

        For every drip of erosion at work there are consequences. We have to be aware of what the consequences might be so that we stop the drip before it becomes a constant flow.

        We have to realize that we are dealing with more that the racism of individuals…….we are dealing with the concerted efforts of ORGANIZED groups.

        Just one example of such a group is the 10th Amendment Society that a poster told me about:

        Here is the link to what my fellow poster told me:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Just a side note:

        I went back to that blog under the NBC article (Nov. 2012) entitled “Supreme Court to Hear Key Voting Rights Case” after the blogging had died down in order to store my research pertaining to that case.

        At the time I did not know how to use the document function on my computer.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sophia~ True! It’s too easy to have an unacknowledged racist viewpoint and not even be aware of it. I truly believe that this humanization will be done through pictures, stories from teachers and friends as well as family. SO MANY of those photos show such promise! Trayvon with the airplane where he’s GLOWING with excitement! That one alone says “I HAD A FUTURE!” I agree with you. I expect Bernie to include all of that.


  69. smokeegyrl says:

    I have been following this case since I seen Sybrina Fulton on twitter trying to get this message of her son being killed on the kony2012 hash tag on twitter. I have been with this family ever since then.
    People have different feelings about the racial aspect to this. I don’t blame all people of color. There is diversity of people of color who hold one man to blame in the killing of Trayvon Martin. Do they think it is racial? Some do and some don’t. We all read the facts, heard the tapes, and seen the video’s, everyone is going to have an opinion. Right or Wrong! I am not going to lie, I was upset about how the Jury selection went and how the Frye was decided. I cried, but I didn’t cry for myself, I cried for the Martin Family how the cries of her sons will not be proven in court. I cried for Trayvon Martin that he shrieked as loud as he could for someone to hear the words he spoke before he succumbed to death by an overzealous gunman. I heard those cries, you heard those cries, the whole world heard those cries, and God heard those cries. Then it dawned on me does it really matter if the juror’s heard those cries. I hummed and hawed over it and said, well if we all heard his screams surely they will hear it; they will know it is Trayvon right? Because if they don’t hear it isn’t him… something is very wrong with this picture.

    GZ called too many 911 calls on too many young black males and children. 2-3 weeks prior to the shooting. He wasn’t about to let one more black teen get away. He even called 911 on his next door neighbor’s dog in which he bought a gun, the same one that killed Trayvon Martin. We all know Trayvon Martin had only a can if Ice Tea and bag of skittles and Fogen had a gun and a determined mind. A Death shriek as West called it then a gunshot then silenced. So who ended up dead? Not GZ! He lied about the route he took when he followed Trayvon Martin. He knows the screams were not his screams and admitted so on the first two initial interviews with Det. Serino and Det. Singleton. GZ stated “that didn’t even sound like me”. Then on March 29th 2012 his dad decides to do an interview hiding behind a screen stating that his son who is screaming just to cover up the mess his son has made just like the previous messes. We all know his dad wasn’t at the scene nor was his brother Jr., but both decide to weigh in their thoughts. Saying the wrong things, penetrating the minds of those who listened to their opinions of what was told to them by Fogen himself. As instructed by George Zimmerman certain frivolous motions were sent to the court. Some were denied and only a couple were approved. The Defense team decided to post everything ugly about Trayvon Martin as to taint the jury pool. Jury selection is made of 6 women all white according to the United States on reorganization of racial standards of the 1850’s of labeling of humans … I’m not saying Hispanic… Hispanic is not even an ethnicity but only relates to those of Spanish speaking countries. We don’t know if that one person even is from a Spanish speaking country or why would they be on a United States jury. This whole Race thing is another issue. Fogen’s ethnicity is Peruvian… and his race is white according to governmental race reorganization of 1850. I do believe that Fogen profiled Trayvon Martin as a black suspicious teen because of the previous 911 calls. One would think this is turning into Blind Justice, because we don’t know why the jury is the way it is and why didn’t the Judge listen to BDLR about E6 and E22? Did she make the right decision or is there something that we don’t know about this Judge. I looked her up and she is good at what she does. I know one thing… I sure am glad that I won’t be in Florida if GZ is acquitted. It’s not only the Black people who stand strong in this, it’s a diverse of people skin color who stand together in this… I also believe that this case is the beginning of what is yet to come in the Stand Your Ground Laws. That Trayvon Martin’s name will enter the history books of laws that need to change that you just can’t shoot or take the law into your own hands and use the laws for an excuse. That the KKK, White Supremacy Groups, The White Sovereign Groups , the Neo Nazi Groups will not use these laws to kill people of color or kill white people that protect those of another color. I just hope to God that this will not happened and pray for peace. I want my children’s children to be able look up my children’ ancestry lineage 100 years with not seeing chains, slavery, hangings, rapes, murders, that wipes out the whole entire family line like I am now seeing. It’s sad and I cry! As I see the other side of my lineage dates back all the way 30 BC. How amazing is that! This Race thing has to go!

    • ZCBest says:

      “It’s not only the Black people who stand strong in this, it’s a diverse of people skin color who stand together in this… I also believe that this case is the beginning of what is yet to come in the Stand Your Ground Laws. That Trayvon Martin’s name will enter the history books of laws that need to change that you just can’t shoot or take the law into your own hands and use the laws for an excuse. That the KKK, White Supremacy Groups, The White Sovereign Groups , the Neo Nazi Groups will not use these laws to kill people of color or kill white people that protect those of another color. I just hope to God that this will not happened and pray for peace. I want my children’s children to be able look up my children’ ancestry lineage 100 years with not seeing chains, slavery, hangings, rapes, murders, that wipes out the whole entire family line like I am now seeing. It’s sad and I cry! As I see the other side of my lineage dates back all the way 30 BC. How amazing is that! This Race thing has to go!”

      (((applause sister)))

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Yes, I agree that folks of all stripes are watching and wanting. Wanting justice and I also agree that this will force a discussion of the SYG law. It’s a sin that a teenagers life was taken before this comes up.
        Racism is a sin. It’s judgement, plain and simple and we’re Not Supposed to Do That.
        In my little corner of the world, there is huge diversity and I haven’t seen any out and out racism. So, this also is yet another reminder of how it is outside my little bubble.

      • cielo62 says:

        ZCBest and smokeegyrl~ let me add my thunderous admiration to these deep words!


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Whew! You have deeply touched my heart with your well-stated, insightful post, smokeegyrl !

      Thank you so much for sharing with such good common sense and frankness!

      You have moved me to tears AND reinforced my determination that Justice for Trayvon MUST come!

    • chi1224 says:

      So well said….. this post touched my heart more than I can say.

    • type1juve says:


      Thank you for this post! You have expressed so much of what I feel about this case. I know that there are many who believe that our justice system works, and sometimes it does. Unfortunately for minorities and poor people it often does not. That is why I am concerned about JN’s rulings, the seating of obvious bigots on the jury, and her inability to reign the defense in, IMO. So yes, I do fear that a murderer might go free. After all, this case has shown me that not a lot has changed for Black people in America.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        When Fogen was first arrested, and he decided to put a website asking for donations, I was very annoyed by this. How dare he ask for money for his defense when there are people accused of crimes who have to settle for Public Defenders! Then I got even more upset because what is this showing to all the victims of crimes that their offender can go to the world wide web and ask for help to get money when she/he/they need money for medical expenses. It just pissed me the hell off. Is this the way the way of the future of criminal thinking. I wish there is way to change this.

        Nobody knows what a person goes through unless they walk in their shoes no matter if it is a person of color, who has been victimized, rape, murder, or etc. Even the richest person can be poor! And a Poor person can be the Richest! Nobody understand what I am talking about unless you have walk the walk.

        • Xena says:


          When Fogen was first arrested, and he decided to put a website asking for donations, I was very annoyed by this.

          It was disgusting. Actually, GZ put up his first beg site before his arrest. It resulted in less than $4,000 in donations until after his arrest. The fact that he used money intended for a legal defense to pay off his personal debts instead, left many donors feeling betrayed. He’s been begging since.

      • Rachael says:

        I totally understand your concern, but I don’t know there is much we can do at this point but do our best to have faith in the system. Sybrina has faith in it. If you are a praying person, pray. If you are an “energy/vibe” person don’t send that negative energy out there – think positively.

        It is really the best hope we have for now, and if he is convicted, it may be the start of change for black people in America and always, always, always keep in mind that even if he is not, he will never ever be free of the fact that he took the life of another human being. No matter what it looks like to you, he will never be free. Justice WILL be served.

        • cielo62 says:

          Rachael~ Thomas Jefferson said it best when he realized that fighting for freedom is done by EACH generation. There IS no “last fight” to assure anything worthwhile. Civil Rights is something we STILL fight for. Same for Women’s Rights, GLBT Rights and just plain HUMAN rights! There are battles, things get decided, then the next step comes up. THIS case is important because it IS crucial, but it won’t be the last battle. It will start another round of discussions and slowly, slowly opinions change, power shifts and our world progresses. Then another watershed moment will come, and so forth. TAKE HEART! HOODIES UP!

      • ladystclaire says:

        type1juve, I couldn’t agree with you more.

  70. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Justice Seeking Folks,
    Missed the moon last night, but I have a date to see it tonight.
    I’m also really looking forward to opening arguments tomorrow. Some of us felt like we were getting a preview the other day, during the individual questionings of what we might hear.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I didn’t miss the moon. no time for lady stuff :). But, I missed my good sleep. I guess I was angry because of the Frye rulling.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Lady stuff? My date is me and the moon tonight. Isn’t it romantic?
        And, what does anger lead to? I understand your frustration, but we have many days to go until the end, and we’d like your searching mind to be healthy. We, as me and the mouse in my pocket. That’s an old saying, not a nasty one. 🙂

  71. SearchingMind says:

    Within less than 24hrs from now, the war to bring the murderer: George Michael Zimmerman to Justice will start. BDLR will start the Offensive for the State of Florida.

    • Rachael says:

      It can’t get here soon enough. But the long wait will be worth it.


    • SearchingMind says:

      I hope Prosecutor realize that in this war, there are no rooms for prisoners and overconfidence. The Frye Ruling must have come as a (minor) shocker to them (as it did to me) and should keep them on guard like watchdogs of the night. Judge Nelson is an honorable Judge, but good judges are human and sometimes do crazy stuff. Prosecutors must know that from experience. Nothing should be taken for granted/as a given. They should, every step of the way, meticulously apply full force in the most subtle, yet ferocious manner in the presentation of their case, examination of witnesses and redirects, keep a hawk-eye on O’Mara and West and use the instrument of ‘objection’ to the fullest. No stipulating to anything that will benefit the defense in anyway.

    • Trained Observer says:

      The murderer who liked to call himself Dat Niggy Tugboat is going to have his fat stern hauled off to Raiford, or the equivalent among state “docks”.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Dat Niggy Tugboat?
        Sounds like a handle GWB would have given someone.
        Disgusting. ‘Course there are lots of other names for him.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Make no mistake, that’s the name Fogen chose for himself on some social media sites. He claimed “Dat Niggy” for Myspace.

  72. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    It was good to see so many of you “checking in” yesterday and have your voices heard! You are a great group!

    Justice for Trayvon!

  73. ronald says:

    Thank you!!!

  74. Sleuth says:

    Good Sunday Morning To All!

    I hope everybody got a chance to marvel at the Super Moon last night. It was so mysterious looking, and yet so marvelous. Just in case you didn’t, it will make its spectacular appearance again tonight at sunset. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

    Now I’m off to see a mighty big man about a couple of mules.

    Have a blessed day! 🙂

    • chi1224 says:

      Same to you Sleuth!
      By the way I agree the Super Moon was beautiful!
      Enjoy your Sunday all, tomorrow we march toward justice!

    • cielo62 says:

      Sleuth~ YES! Yesterday I went to Austin to hang out with my brother. Tried a new restaurant, saw a complete rainbow after a quick heavy shower. Stopped for dinner and got to see the Super Moon on the way home. On the whole, I’d say I was blessed all day. 🙂


      • Sleuth says:


        Glad you got a chance to hang out with your brother. Hope y’all saved me a doggie bag.

        A rainbow and the Super Moon, all in a 24hr. period, well I’d say you were double blessed my friend! 🙂 🙂

  75. Woow! says:

    I did not follow this case close from the beginning but only as it got close to the trial. Where can I see pictures of Osterman from the bank teller machine and all of the other pictures that were made public in this case?

    • Xena says:


      Where can I see pictures of Osterman from the bank teller machine and all of the other pictures that were made public in this case?

      The State didn’t release pics of Osterman at the bank, rather, it is the bank’s video. You can find the video, photos, and all other discovery material here:

      I did a quick search on Google for “images” using “Mark Osterman” “M&I Bank video” and it returned a photo capture of the video along with a comparison photo of Mark.

      • aussiekay says:

        Here it is the original comparison

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks Xena and Aussie — Certainly a similarity … Am tempted to think it’s Osterman, although Seminole County seems to have a lot of fat-neckers around.

      • Rachael says:

        IDK – face looks kinda fluffier – but there must be some reason why they have it or even thought to look there for it. Phone records would be interesting.

        • Xena says:


          IDK – face looks kinda fluffier – but there must be some reason why they have it or even thought to look there for it. Phone records would be interesting.


      • Trained Observer says:

        Setting of the mouth seems most telling to me. No need to sweat this, though. Bank records tell all, and either way the State knows for sure.

        Osterman so quiet these days after previously being such a blabber-puss. Is he fearing charges?

      • aussie says:

        The ears. Look at the ears.

        • Xena says:

          @aussie. I believe it is Osterman. On the re-enactment video it briefly catches Osterman standing by the truck. It looks just like the guy at the bank only without eyeglasses.

      • Tzar says:

        none of those people are osterman

  76. Jun says:

    Could the state not request a Daubert hearing?

    I believe the women on the jury can be intelligent enough to tell that it’s a kid screaming and obviously not Fogen however I feel even if she does not agree with the methodologies, I feel they can draw an accurate conclusion

    Also, can’t the state use the fact that the defense claims “the sample is not good enough” against them?

    It sounds to me, if they are trying to go to trial claiming they can tell now, it’s a huge contradiction to their “not got sample to ID” claim they used at the hearing

    Also, could Bernie not just straight up play the sample and just be honest and say “I agree with the on scene witnesses who state that they heard a kid yelling and screaming” and that the “screams abruptly end at the gun shot” because the recording proves it

    I’d also use the admission by party opponent rule and play where Fogen says “it does not even sound like me”

    I’d personally plan it out like this

    1) Enter in the evidence that Trayvon just went to the store to buy candy for his lil brother whom was at home, and Trayvon was headed back to his home to give his lil brother the Skittles and Ice Tea. During this time he was also talking to DeeDee on the phone

    2) Bring in Fogen’s phone records and Osterman’s phone records and the bank photo and also match the bank card to him using the machine.

    3) Show the clubhouse video of what looks like Fogen creeping around the clubhouse and show that it matches his description.

    4) Play the NEN call and show that Fogen was at the clubhouse at that time, and the odds are he was the only person who could have matched that description within that area, as well as the fact Fogen admits he is parked by the clubhouse when this occurs.

    5) Utilizing the phone records, map out Fogen’s movements according to a timeline. Very simple and straightforward.

    6) Bring in witness 2, who will testify as to the chase she saw, heading north toward the T, from south on the back pathway, and that she heard screams that were abruptly ended by the gunshot.

    7) Bring in witness 18, who will testify that Fogen confronted Trayvon, aggressively and in a threatening manner. She will testify to the positions she saw and how she wished she could have helped the young boy. She will testify that it was the young boy screaming for help. She will testify that Fogen shot the kid while he had him pinned to the ground.

    8) Bring in witness 1, who will testify to the struggle she saw and the fact that she heard a kid yelling. She will place the struggle south on the back pathway.

    9) I would bring up the timeline map again.

    10) Bring in Mary Cutcher and Selma and they will testify that they heard a kid screaming for help and that they felt there was an intentional murder. They will also testify that Fogen acted non chalant about Fogen killing a kid and that he was pacing around thinking and deliberating. They will also testify to Fogen molesting Trayvon’s body as he lay dying, as Fogen pinned the kid facedown asphyxiating the victim/

    11) Bring in witness 3, who will testify that she believes she saw Fogen pinning Trayvon to the ground and shot him while pinning Trayvon to the ground. She will testify that she heard screams for help which abruptly stopped at the gunshot.

    12) I will bring in the 911 scream tape and also establish the phone records and if necessary, bring the dispatcher in to confirm the phone call. The dispatcher will confirm the frantic phone call and testify that she heard the gunshot end the screams. The dispatcher can also testify as to what she heard on the phone and is also an ear witness. I would also bring in Sybrina to testify.

    13) I would bring in the ballistics and forensic evidence, which will show that, on top of pinning Trayvon on the ground, after chasing him down while armed and Trayvon was unarmed, that Fogen pulled the victim toward him, and also show that it is the only way to match the trajectory and the bullet holes. Any Omara idiot will easily be shown to be a liar and a lousy forensic and ballistic expert, and the person will probably face charges for obstructing justice.

    14) I would bring in the DNA evidence. I would show that there is no way Trayvon could have touched/hit Fogen’s face or cause any of his injuries and have an expert testify that Fogen staged his injuries in order to frame Trayvon the victim and to cover up his crime.

    15) If Omara tries to claim has a right to stalk Trayvon, I would rebut with the stalking statute and that Fogen does not have authority to do anything he did, and, Fogen does not know what suspicious is and then show all his ridiculous calls to police. I would also rebut with the black guy whom Fogen stalked and harassed and threatened. I would also rebut to the 8 year old boy whom Fogen accused of stealing a bike and Fogen turned out to be wrong, but Fogen still chose to terrorize the 8 year old boy until police arrive and the father defended. These will establish Fogen’s habits.

    16) The other witnesses are not really necessary. If they want to bring in witness 6, I would have my rebuttal information already established earlier with the DNA and forensics and ballistics. I think he will play it smart and avoid obstruction and perjury charges and keep his recanted statements out of the courtroom.

    17) Every other witness after that, except DEEDEE, will testify that they heard screams that ended with abruptness on the gunshot.

    18) I will bring Deedee in and present her as the ear witness and friend on the phone with Trayvon when this occurred. I will show the other evidence and testimony in the evidence already that supports her testimony, so it will rehabilitate any BS hospital records claims from Omara. I think the jury will understand her and forgive her and they will also see that her testimony is supported by other evidence, so it’s not gonna be false. Also the BS hospital thing is BS. I would also rebut Omara with all the lies and false information he has presented and rebut him and say, “according to your logic, nothing you say is trustworthy”.

    Actually I just noticed, most of the witnesses are women and if Omara is rude to any of the women, the jury is not gonna take kindly to that. I think the women will identify with the witnesses more than Fogen, considering, a majority are women (the important witnesses on scene)

    • fauxmccoy says:

      jun says

      Could the state not request a Daubert hearing?

      jun, i’ve pointed this out to you three times


      you cannot have a daubert hearing in a state that has adopted the frye standard. although the legislators have enacted and the governor signed an act that would convert florida to the daubert standard, right now, they are a frye state.

      • Jun says:

        I’m drunk right now, so I have not seen a reply to my post regarding it yet, so I did not know

        So I am guessing they can request it later on then, during the trial?

        I just disagree with Nakasone that it cant be done and I feel even if they feel it’s new and novel, accurate results can be done, especially since it’s fairly easy to match and determine a result

        • fauxmccoy says:


          no, the trial will be in progress when the state converts to the daubert standard. the prosecution could appeal the judge’s decision, but i highly doubt they wish to delay trial. they clearly have the evidence needed or they would not have filed the information and capeas they filed for arrest. remember, the information was filed long before they went out to seek any experts that had already been hired by various media outlet. quite simply, it is not an integral portion of their case.

      • Tzar says:

        I believe they are switching to Daubert starting in July

        • fauxmccoy says:

          tzar says

          I believe they are switching to Daubert starting in July

          that is my understanding as well, tzar. i cannot imagine that the change will have any impact on cases already decided or in progress though, do you?

  77. ay2z says:

    Good night everyone.

    • pat deadder says:

      ay2z The Watcher video was so sad.We saw Stomin Tom at Horseshoe Travern in early 70’s.My favoites are Tillsonburg and Marten Hartwell Story.He was a Canadian Icon.

  78. Woow! says:

    Professor, do you think the BDLR will use RSr. ebook to show the bigotry in that family or will they forego touching on that topic?

    They know Fogen only followed Trayvon because he was black but they keep saying race was not a factor. They are running away from the problem not addressing it.

    • Xena says:


      They know Fogen only followed Trayvon because he was black but they keep saying race was not a factor. They are running away from the problem not addressing it.

      It might appear that way, but racial profiling when committing a crime is under federal jurisdiction. Papa Zim directed his disparaging remarks and accusations towards federal actors. The federal investigation is still ongoing.

      • Woow! says:

        Thanks for clarifying that…I did not not that is what PapaZ did. I guess stupid is hereditary because PapaZ making remarks towards the feds is really stupid with the investigation still pending. The Zimmerman family didn’t fall from the stupid tree they were thrown from the tallest branch.

        • Xena says:


          The Zimmerman family didn’t fall from the stupid tree they were thrown from the tallest branch.

          Projected by a slingshot, and over 500 ft of water.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      the defendant is on trial for murder, not racism. the state has no need to bring it up and it might even be detrimental to their M2 case, considering the geographics/demographics.

      all they’ve got to do is prove 3 elements of M2, 2 of which are firmly established.

      yeah, we all know the whole family is a bunch of racist, bigoted trash, but that is not what is on trial.

      • RobertSF says:

        Exactly. We don’t want it to be like the Casey Anthony trial, where they spent so much time proving she was party girl that they didn’t get around to proving she murdered her daughter.

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen is allowed to be racist; that’s his business and it’s his Constitutional right to express his racism. He is NOT allowed to murder anyone. If he kept his racism within those bounds he’d be just fine now. Once he killed someone, it’s about MURDER and not about RACISM.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          malisha says

          Fogen is allowed to be racist; that’s his business and it’s his Constitutional right to express his racism. He is NOT allowed to murder anyone. If he kept his racism within those bounds he’d be just fine now. Once he killed someone, it’s about MURDER and not about RACISM.

          could not agree more.

      • ay2z says:

        Malisha, but isn’t there any limit on freedom of expression if that expression is hate?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          9 AM MONDAY JUNE 24th!!!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @ay2z who asks

          Malisha, but isn’t there any limit on freedom of expression if that expression is hate?

          limits on speech are a rarity here, it’s part of our makeup. malisha provides an excellent response. people are free to put words to the ugly thoughts in their minds and as a society, we are free to treat them with scorn, derision, loss of employment. for a perfect example, just read up a bit on what fake celebrity ‘chef’ paula deen is going through right now. she has lost her lucrative gig on the food network for having held racist beliefs and using racist language. her personal gravy train is coming to a screeching halt.

          we differ from european countries here in how we treat ‘hate speech’. denying the holocaust, for example, is a jailable offense in other countries, but not here. mind you, anyone who expresses such an opinion outside their klan meeting does not make it very far, we simply do not try them and jail them. society’s scorn appears to be sufficient.

      • Malisha says:

        Ay2z, limits on freedom of expression are dealt with very seriously and are very restricted. You can say, “I hate [fill in the blank] because they are all [fill in whatever you like]” and get away with it. If you’re on the radio or TV, and you say stuff like that, you can be fired. If you say something like that and you’re a physician in a public hospital, the hospital may be vulnerable to discrimination suits of all sorts. If you’re a politician and you say that, you can have negative consequences. If you say something like that and it is taped and then later you are a sworn witness for the prosecution in a criminal case (remember Mark Furhman?), you can lose the case for the prosecution and make everyone in the state hate you (some for saying it, others for ruining the case) and have to move away. Etc. But if you say something that incites a riot or causes some unlawful or illegal conduct, you may get into trouble for that, even criminally. There are lawyers whose entire careers are based on working out the subtleties involved.

        In Fogen’s case, he is sure to have made racist remarks that could show his racism, but that is irrelevant in this trial. If, however, any of his “self expression” is in the possession of the prosecution and it tends to show either “ill will” or “depraved mind,” he is … what we freedom-of-expression types would call … phukt.

  79. Woow! says:

    Was any of the SPD officers (other than Serino) listed as witnesses by the BDLR? Do you guys know if Officer Smith was deposed?

  80. Woow! says:

    I would love to know what Shelly had to say during her deposition today. I hope she threw Fogen under the bus by telling the truth to save herself.

    Does anyone have any ideas why RJr has gone quiet?

    • ay2z says:

      He said he was going to do that, quit his twits once jury sequestered.

    • Ms.X says:

      Who did Shelly give a deposition to? For what purpose? I thought she didn’t have to do that. I don’t think shes ready to flip on him yet. Shes going to wait to see if any more gravy comes in on the gravy train.

      • ay2z says:

        Didn’t know about the depo time, but of course she’s a witness on the witness list, so she would be deposed before trial. The state has her listed, the defense listed everyone the state listed, and therefore the state has the right to depose her as a defense witness. There was also a second rule under which the state would have the right to depose SZ. (there was a hearing on this)

        O’Mara tried to withdraw SZ as a witness th day of the hearing but he couldn’t do that, but even if he could, the state could depose her on that other rule.

        The judge agreed, BOOM, she’s got to be deposed.

      • ay2z says:

        She is not going to be deposed about the bond issues and her pending charges.

      • Woow! says:

        JN granted BDLR motion to compel Shelly to appear for her deposition. I think that took place today because at the end of the Frye hearing, MOM told BDLR they would discuss ___ ( I could not really hear) at the depo tomorrow meaning Saturday so I assumed it was Shelly’s depo.

      • ay2z says:

        I thought the state and defense might be agreeing on MOM’s time to question fogen’s college prof ahead of his testimony being perpetuated.

      • Woow! says:

        @ay2z No JN and MOM had a few words about the professors testimony. I got the feeling MOM does not want the professor to testify since he went on and on about deposing him first and JN said it was not a depo.

        I think Shelly is being deposed about what she knows the night Fogen shot Trayvon and her involvement. I still think she was in the truck that night.

        @Ms.X Fogen family would take any money she has stashed away from her. She is stupid enough to give it to them.

        • cielo62 says:

          Woow! I don’tthink Shellie would give a DIME to gzs parents. She knows he hates them. AND she’s a greedy little bitch herself. No more make up and iTunes if she gives gzs parents their secret stash! IF there is any stashed money, Shellie is keeping it dark.


    • BlueJ says:

      Actually to quote Jr…… he says “he won’t tweet anymore until after the acquittal” Hopefully that means he’s finished tweeting for good 🙂

  81. My Forehead Tho says:

    “Trayvon’s case has taught me that our society is far more racist and sexist than I imagined.”

    Not only this case, but the backlash from the Mexican-American boy singing the national anthem and the Cheerio commercial as well. Thinking of how far we’ve come makes me smile, but knowing how far we still have to go saddens me.

  82. BlueJ says:

    Professor – Just wanted to say “Tennessee + Motorcycle” = Your a very lucky man.

    I’m Canadian and about 10 years ago a friend that lives in Nashville arranged a tour of 3 days on his favorite roads (and he knows the best). and of course Deals Gap. The group was people who owned Honda ST1100’s sport touring bikes and he called the event the “TTT” = Three days of Tennessee Twisties”…. and it live up to the bill. The group of about 20 was roughly 1/3 Canadian….. will never forget it!!!

    • ay2z says:

      TO ball club fan?

      • BlueJ says:

        Not too much….. live in Ottawa so mainly Senators hockey but not much of sports fan. But love Motocycles 🙂

        Thanks for all the work you are doing here. I’ve followed the case pretty much from day one.

  83. tharealkeisha says:

    GZ still can get convicted in civil court. No immunity b/c no SYG hearing. Wrongful death of Trayvon Martin

    • Malisha says:

      He will be convicted in a criminal court is my prediction (if there is a trial). THEN he will be held accountable for damages in a civil case — by settlement.

      • concernedczen says:

        What do you think might happen to prevent a trial?

      • tharealkeisha says:


      • Xena says:

        @Malisha. I just read over on HLN’s introduction of people in the case, that Don West represented two individuals in federal court, (as public defender) who were both charged with White Collar crimes. One is the guy known for starting the Boy Bands. In that case, he continued trial until finally getting the U.S. Attorney to agree to a plea deal. The defendant was sentenced to 25 years. The other defendant was found guilty.

        So it seems like West is more experienced defending clients for non-violent crimes. Considering how many times he and O’Mara have asked to delay trial, I can’t help but wonder if it was to get on Corey’s nerves to the point she would be willing to offer GZ a plea.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena~ I had read that his “specialty” was plea deals. But don’t mandatory minimums apply even in plea deals? I don’t see that a plea deal would have helped all that much. Manslaughter’s MINIMUM would still be 35 years mandatory sentencing.


          • Xena says:


            Manslaughter’s MINIMUM would still be 35 years mandatory sentencing.

            Yes. I think it’s the same for murder 2. So he can stay in prison until he’s 64 if he lives that long, or stay in prison until he dies, whether at age 64 or beyond.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            it is because of florida’s mandatory minimums that i have never cared much if the conviction was for M2 or manslaughter. either way, time spent behind bars will be significant. i do have a preference, mind you, but will gladly accept manslaughter should that be the case.

            in addition to that mandatory minimum, florida does not allow any time off for ‘good behavior’ or any other reason until 85% of time is served. people who speak of a manslaughter ‘deal’ with 5-10 years do not know what they are saying.

          • Xena says:


            in addition to that mandatory minimum, florida does not allow any time off for ‘good behavior’ or any other reason until 85% of time is served. people who speak of a manslaughter ‘deal’ with 5-10 years do not know what they are saying.

            I have no idea what they are saying. IIRC, Trevor Dooley was sentenced to 8 years for manslaughter. The judge considered the circumstances under which David James was murdered, and also Dooley’s statement of remorse.

            What I do know is that for a person who did not want to be arrested; who lied about his finances to get a low bail so he could get out of jail; who has asked twice that the court alter his conditions of bond, including the removal of the GPS ankle bracelet; that spending one year in prison would be hell for him. GZ is destined to spending the rest of his life in prison.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena~ Even if getting a “downgrade” to “reckless discharge of a firearm” THAT would STILL carry 20 years mandatory PLUS the 10 year enhancement for killing a minor. Or did they really think he’d get a “littering charge” for the bullet casing? Are they THAT stupid?


          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. After going back over some of the pre-trial hearings, it’s my impression that West has wanted the State to offer GZ a plea deal, but making it appear as though the State’s case is weak. Now that he has to stand before the jury and present opening statement for a trial he alleges not being ready for, reality is going to hit him in the butt.

            It would not surprise me if he and O’Mara arrived to court in the morning with another motion to delay trial.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ Maybe by showing up in their legal briefs, saying they need a continuence for their suits to dry!

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. (gulp, slurp, snort) ROFLMAO!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            By putting West up to do opening statements, Omar is once again signalling that he wants to put distance between himself and ground zero. The Motto of the O’Mara Law Firm:



          • Xena says:

            LOL@Lonnie Starr. O’Mara is no doubt shaking in his shoes also because the State was ready to take him on in an immunity hearing back in April. The expert testimony of voice analysts was just icing on the cake — icing that reduced GZ’s defense fund and for West to challenge just before and after jury selection.

      • Malisha says:

        concernedc: No trial if (a) he runs or (b) he pleads in a secret deal that Corey and perhaps the Gov had agreed at the outset.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ your pessimism is truly a fixed thing. Gz will not run; he’s too arrogant AND too many people are financially invested in his attending the trial. There will be NO “secret plea deal”. In fact, this kind of case is exactly what the Florida GOP needs right now; “See? We care about black people! We convicted a killer of a black teen!” Corey is a bulldog and doesn’t make arrangements in secret. In the end, Wolfy and Billy Lee will get away with their shenanigans, BUT the great majority of people will be happy that the actual trigger man will be jailed. A few token heads will roll in the SPD and again, that will satisfy the casual observer. It will seen as a win-win all the way around for LE AND the Governor’s GOP office. In the end, gz will be in prison. And the story will be dropped after that.


      • concernedczen says:

        I think if he runs, there still will be a trial. He would have had to run before jury selection was completed to stop the trial

    • ay2z says:

      SYG phrase, will come into the opening statement, betcha no doubt.

      • Ms.X says:

        I don’t think they can do that. They waived the SYG hearing.

      • Malisha says:

        Ms.X, they’re pretending they only waived a “pre” trial SYG hearing and that they can still have one “during” or “after” trial.

        I’m expecting them to start hopping around mid-trial screaming about new evidence new evidence new evidence (that Bernie withheld! SANCTIONS!!) and wanting a SYG right then!

    • Ms.X says:

      What I really hope is that the Martin family sues the heck out of the city of Sanford & wins. The police were clearly derelict in their duties. There needs to be a Trayvon’s Bill that requires them to document forensic data even if someone claims SYG. They let gz wash his hands in the frickin police station! They didn’t do any drug or alcohol tesing on him. Thats crazy!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree. The SYG laws need to be accompanied by high forensic and investigative standards.

      • fauxmccoy says:


        those are some very good, pro-active ideas! are you a florida resident? is there any action you can take to get that ball rolling?

        (i did not mention above, mostly because i was at a loss for words, but i was very touched by the loving tribute you wrote about your son.)

      • boyd says:

        I agree 100%. They complain about no standards in audio forensics, but standards in a killing? no we can’t have that.

        he should have been blood tested., car checked out, etc.

      • Rachael says:

        I agree. That should be like police 101.

      • LeaNder says:

        Ms.X, this is absolutely true, unfortunately it is too late in our case.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Any time there’s a fatal shooting, the shooter needs to be tested for drugs, alcohol, and examined for injuries. That’s just basic. SPD failed, and it looks like that was deliberate.

      • aussie says:


    • LeaNder says:

      I am not completely sure, if he will not try to get it in before jury deliberations, meaning he may somehow argues that while it was no SYG case strictly–remember supposedly Fogen had no chance to retreat–he may well argue he should be given the same benefits as if he had had a chance to. At least he has argued that all the time, even during the voir dire he alluded to it.

      • kllypyn says:

        he had plenty of chances to retreat.by simply leaving trayvon alone or going back to his truck. The only one who couldn’t retreat was trayvon he tried but couldn’t break free from Zimmerpunks grip. He simply wasn’t strong enough and it cost him his life.

        • LeaNder says:

          kllypyn, I do not expect to be O’Mara/West’s narrative to be even vaguely similar, but to be a copy’s of Fogen’s and that is what he will base his arguments on.

          I didn’t meant to suggest that I believe the tale.

        • LeaNder says:

          kllypyn, I do not expect to be O’Mara/West’s narrative to be even vaguely similar, but to be a copy’s of Fogen’s and that is what he will base his arguments on.

          I didn’t meant to suggest that I believe the tale.

  84. Puck says:

    Dear Professor, and other lawyers here:

    “coffeetalk,” an ostensibly neutral lawyer on DKos, keeps insisting the prosecution must prove it was not self-defense. Here’s his/her latest restatement of this:

    “Not correct under Florida law. (2+ / 0-)

    As long as a defendant raises a prima facie case of self-defense then the burden shifts to the prosecution to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

    So, here’s what the jury will be instructed:

    If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty.

    That clearly means the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense rests with the prosecution. Basically, if there’s enough for the judge to give the jury instruction on self-defense and what it is and what it is not, the jury will also be told that the burden is on the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was not self-defense.”

    So, ONCE AND FOR ALL, what’s the deal with the self-defense defense?

    Here’s the link to the post and the article:



    In any case, if this is indeed the case, I don’t think the prosecution will have much of a problem proving it wasn’t self-defense.

    • cielo62 says:

      Puck- the state can present a pure murder two scenario and NEVER have to mention self defense. It is up to GZ to present his version to back up his claim that he shot out of self defense. Unless he does that, and allows himself to be cross examined, then there is no self defense case at all.


    • Xena says:

      @Puck. On another page, I asked the professor if he could write on burden shifting. I can’t put my finger on Florida’s statute now, and its self-defense statutes are connected between several, so it takes some time to work through it. However, it seems to me that I read that when claiming self-defense, that the defendant is “required” to prove by that affirmative defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

      I was taught that “required” shifts the burden of proof.

      You might want to research the trial of Trevor Dooley in Florida for how that works.

  85. tharealkeisha says:

    I’m ready to boycott Florida

  86. whonoze says:

    Clickorlando.com reports:

    “Local 6 has learned attorney Don West will do the opening statements for Zimmerman’s team.”

    Oh. My. God….

    • Xena says:

      @whonoze. Considering that jurors have a choice between Song and Dance and Sleepy Hollow, Sleepy Hollow is the best choice. The jury won’t remember one word of his opening statement because they’ll be saying to themselves, “when is this guy going to STFU!”

      • Rachael says:

        Very good point!

      • ay2z says:

        but the big fear would be that the jurors, turned off of the West ‘wind’, will so look forward to MOM. Authority and friend to all, he has presented himself to be.

        • Xena says:


          but the big fear would be that the jurors, turned off of the West ‘wind’, will so look forward to MOM.

          If indeed West gives the opening statement, that’s it. O’Mara doesn’t get a chance to follow him to help out. West might do most of the cross on matters that he and O’Mara neither understand, such as phone logs and GPS. LOL!! If the defense presents a case, O’Mara might then take over in calling and questioning defense witnesses.

          I suspect that Bernie (smooches, Bernie) will handle all re-directs.

      • Tzar says:

        After Omaras argumentative voir dire, I was really hoping he would do the pen

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, yeah, not follow in the opening, but follow as in rest of trial. They make a good team, and are probably well entrenched in the obcession of trashing the character of th eyoung victim, and being seen as nice guy salesman to the jury could work for him.

        MOM has already got the jury thinking of him as ‘teacher’ and ‘authority’ as they asked him questions about how they should consider this or that evidence. They must put on their critical listening of who the story teller is. They might believe everything this ‘renaissance gentleman of quiet distinction’ offers them with a twinkle in his eye.

    • Girlp says:

      Well there goes the entire week.

    • ks says:

      Wow! Seriously…lol

    • whonoze says:

      We can only hope he gags on his plug as he addresses the jury and spits up some tobacco juice on E-6.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      My only concern about West is his inability to keep things professional.

      Hopefully none of the names, address, or workplaces of the jurors ‘accidently’ slips out of West’s mouth when things aren’t going well for the defense.

      • ay2z says:

        I think West will let slip stuff that the defense knows full well will never come in, but that they can still play as ‘good faith’.

        MOM does not act in good faith, we know that.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I think West’s roll is to be the villain (i.e., attempt to make the judge decide what is a reasonable fee for an expert; attempt to introduce something into evidence that has not been vetted; attempt to confuse with his absurd soliloquies). He accepted that roll, so he must accept the consequences.

      • Tzar says:

        The state will look like punks if they don’t control that

    • Nef05 says:

      I don’t trust West any more than I could throw fogen. I think he’s old enough to not have to worry about disbarment, maybe on the verge of retiring anyway, possibly physically or mentally impaired and has nothing to lose. I fully expect him to say something to the jury that he knows should not be said, specifically about Trayvon (some type of “code” for black/thug, something about school records, pot making him “aggressive”, known to be aggressive or fighting,etc.) and damn the consequences.

      What’s the worst that can happen? He says something and you have the “can’t unring the bell” situation, or the judge declares a mistrial, which is nothing more than a de facto continuance the defense wants anyway.

      Would one of you legal minds out there give me some indication of how often the co-counsel (second chair?) gives the opening statement (and the first impression of the defense’s position) to the jury? Am I missing something? Is this common?

      Can anyone else think of ANY reason O’Mara would give up the first impression to the jury, the first impression to the nation on widespread national TV coverage of the official court proceeding, to West: given O’Mara’s inability to pass up anything “resembling” a microphone or a camera”? I just don’t see it, other than they want to say something that shouldn’t be said, but protect O’Mara, at the same time.

      IMO – there’s no reason for West to give the opening rather than the lead counsel, other than to be the sacrificial lamb.

      • cielo62 says:

        Nef05~ I would imagine a warning to West the 1st time. Contempt of court the 2nd time, throwing him in jail the 3rd time and leaving MOM to finish on his own. NO continuence.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Since when does second chair handle opening arguments in a first degree murder trial? I’ve asked before and (like West) I’ll keep on asking … is this a ploy? Will he stroke out or choke on his Red Man mid-presentation and attempt to throw trial into disarray?

  87. smokeegyrl says:

    I’m still at loss for words for right now… I know what you are saying professor… but I will sleep on this tonight and let God guide me in my thought process, I’m kind of like N18… but not like BDLR. I am Catholic and as far as the death penalty… is not sure what I believe… I don’t like the word “death” so… I will leave it at that. Goodnight.

    • ay2z says:

      I have a feeling the state was bringing all that in, because it would test the waters, but really, doubt they wanted to do much more than offer a schmor–smorgaz— smorgasbord from which jurors could select and assign value.

      Mr. Mantai was clear that there’s a lot of different methodologies and opinions and conclusions, and the best,as most experts agreed, were the listeners familiar with the speaker.

      That part would be useful, but the rest, yikes there were problems. It’s best this way.

      The state can still bring in experts to offer the obvious about familial listeners.

      The state knows without question now, that the defense

      1. has NO expert to prove their client was the person screaming.

      2. has TWO experts (Dr. French and Dr. Doddington), who testified under oath in open court, that familial listeners still are the best at identifying WHO is speaking.

      That seems to be what everything that happened in Frye, would boil down to anyway.

    • cielo62 says:

      Smokeegyrl- the death penalty is not an option in this case. It’s “only” second degree murder.


  88. ay2z says:

    Say, could Donald West’s outbursts recently in court, have something to do with his chewing and direct ingestion of tobacco that we saw in court?

    Anger, anxiety, agitation or (?) related to nicotine toxicity? IN court in front of the judge, in front of his collegues in the legal profession?

    Trayvon had no such outburst in the 7 Eeven, looked pretty chilled, pulling money from his pocket, getting the cois out.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Maybe West will ingest enough of his (nasty ass) tobacco juice, that he will start swaying right in the middle of his opening statement. this is one more nasty man. I didn’t ever pay that much attention to him to know, that he had a damn plug between his cheek and gums. YUCK!

  89. ay2z says:

    We will soon hear the defense’s opening statement, to see what their position is.

    We know this is in their ‘position’ as a reason Trayvon was to blame for being in Sanford and for having trace amounts of marijuana in his blood. (nevermind the police never checked the killer for alcohol or drugs, nada, niecht, non, zilch. that could have altered the behaviour or mood of his killer)

    • ay2z says:

      Papa confronts West’s ridiculous conclusion and asks in his video title:

      “What Are YOU Under The Influence Of?”

      (well we know now, one influence is chewing and swallowing tabacco, to keep himself pumped, easily he could become light headed, heart rate speeds to rapid, blood pressure increases followed by a rapid drop. Yep, that could cause someone to sway a little.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        What a lying sack of shit you are, West. After an expert maintains the amount of THC and metabolites in TM’s bloodstream were too small to affect behavior.

        Lightning will strike. The mountains will tremble. Your client will go to prison.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides: “Lightning will strike. The mountains will tremble. Your client will go to prison.” And then, if he doesn’t repent, he will go to hell!

    • Malisha says:

      Yeah, he’s swaying at the 7-11 but by the time he skips over to RTL he’s ready to sucker-punch, fling on the ground, mount, slam, bam and nearly kill da man until “You got me!” Right.

      • boyd says:

        that was all a little entertainment before heading back in the house to watch the game and babysit

        is brandi green and her son testifying

      • ay2z says:

        and remember “he saw it [the gun] I think he saw it”.

        Thing is, if Trayvon saw the gun, it wasn’t when fogen said he thought he saw it, he did a little time shift again with that one.

        Does not make sense that a man in fear as fogen claims he was while inside his vehicle, would get out to follow while in fear.

        Not without his firearm. No way, no how, would he have done that and be in fear, he had that erased with the gun and the fact that he was chasing a ‘guy’ who already showed he was running from him.

  90. whonoze says:

    Going back to my post from a few days ago… I argued that if the State really wanted to get their expert testimony on the screams admitted, they would have to bring more to the table on rebuttal than they did on direct. IMHO they should have been able to do so, but failed utterly. Owen offered nothing beyond the preliminary and scientifically weak analysis he had prepared for the OS. Reich’s report was also preliminary, and void of any key detail. In short, the State did not commission any original, rigorous study of the voice exemplars, but relied on some rather sketchy analysis that had been handed to them on a plate (and a flimsy paper plate at that).

    Either the State didn’t really care about the voice ID, or they were grossly overconfident that JN would stay within the very loose standards established by Frye. If they really wanted to get expert testimony on the screams admitted, they would have forseen the possibility of JN’s ruling. It appears that Dr. Naksone and his colleagues have a long-standing beef with Mr. Owen. A bit of research could have uncovered this, and the potential effect the credentials of Nakasone, French and Wayman would possibility have on a judge.

    What we did NOT hear from either of the State’s witnesses was a comparison of vocal characteristics of the screams to both GZ’s “Help me! Help me!” exemplars and the voice sample of Trayvon from his cell phone video, conducted with proper scientific controls for ‘researcher bias’, resulting in a valid relative probability of match between the screams and the two possible sources. Perhaps the State was reluctant to commission such a study for fear it would be inconclusive. (?) But going by my own ‘critical listening’ test, I would have been more confident. To my ear, the timbre of the screams sound much closer to Trayvon’s “We need a behind the scenes!” than to GZ’s “Help me! Help me!”

    Reich did testify that he made a ‘critical listening’ comparison between the screams, Trayvon’s exemplar, and a variety of samples of GZ taken from the many recordings of his voice now available. His conclusion was that IDing the screams as far more likely to be Trayvon was simple and more or less obvious. This statement seems to have made no impact on JN’s ruling, which strikes me as a bit odd. Perhaps it got lost amidst all the other ‘noise’ of the Frye hearing, especially since it was mentioned only in Reich’s oral testimony, and not in his written report. Reich seems to have been disqualified in toto due to the skepticism over his word identifications: “these shall be”, “but not on me” etc., which do seem a bit ‘out there.’ If the State had gotten him to stick to the COMPARATIVE voice ID question, explain his methodology thereof, put it in writing, and leave out the word ID stuff, I think he would have had a much better chance of surviving the Frye hearing.

    I would also guess that the Defense will attempt to introduce expert testimony that it is impossible for anyone using any method to accurately match the screams to their source, in rebuttal to Sabrina’s expected testimony of ‘That’s my son!’ I expect they will argue that JN’s ruling only prohibits expert testimony on the specific question of experts attributing the screams to either TM or GZ, not on the more general question of the science of speaker recognition by humans (as opposed to computers). If indeed the defense takes this route, I wonder how JN will rule…

    • Malisha says:

      Either the State didn’t really care about the voice ID, or they were grossly overconfident that JN would stay within the very loose standards established by Frye.

      Well how “over”confident should a party have to BE that a judge will stay within standards that ARE after all the standards that have been estabished? Surely, at a Frye hearing, she should have stayed within the standards established for a Frye hearing! If she wanted stricter standards, she should have then told both sides that she was considering different standards, and asked them to brief the issue so she could tell them what HER standards were going to be!

      I don’t think it’s wrong to prepare for what the law tells you to do, when you are having a hearing pursuant to law. That’s one of my main complaints about the law. If you’re given notice of A, you shouldn’t be dealing with B when you get to court, and a decision should not be rendered based on C! Jeez Louise!

      • whonoze says:

        If you want to win a big case, you’d probably better have ALL your ducks in a row, make no assumptions, and be ready for anything foreseeable. Owen and Nakasone apparently have history. Nakasone and the other defense witnesses have credentials up the ass. JN’s ruling was hardly unpredictable…

      • Ms.X says:

        x10! You’re turning into my shero.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m okay with not having experts in court to confuse the issue.

        But I’d still like to know what Reich comes up with and I hope he continues to pursue his analysis anyway.

      • Jun says:

        I dont see how the ruling was fair IMO and I do not feel the Frye Standards are loose

        The jury can decide for themselves what the experts’ testify and give it the weight they want to it

        Nakasone can not honestly not attempt to do anything with the sample, as well as take into account other factors of the case to come to a conclusion, and then claim it’s not a good enough sample, because, it is very possible to get a match off the samples

        Unless Nakasone and Weyman actually did scientific tests with a large number to check for accuracy and look at the percentage, can they honestly lay claim to their testimony

        Yes standards should be set, however, standards can easily be raised, and their claim that 3 seconds is impossible, is just a load of crap

        I honestly do not agree with the ruling

        Especially against Reich… he simply used his ears and he can honestly say it does not match Fogen

        IMO Nakasone and Weyman are crappy scientists trying to set ridiculous standards

        Anyways, it’s not a big deal, the experts simply can’t testify to the 911 scream I think, so they can still testify regarding the NEN call Fogen made

        The prosecution in opening can state that on scene witnesses have stated that the screams sounded like that of a young boy and the victim is a young boy and they can state that all the witnesses have stated that the screams end with the gunshot abruptly and the 911 tape sounds like a kid screaming

        and The defense can’t submit any witnesses to testify that it was Fogen because then they would be contradicting earlier statements that they dont want the tape in and they dont want anyone testifying as to who was screaming and they claimed it can not be identified while the state feels it can and has witnesses who also identify the screams

      • LeaNder says:

        Malisha, Guy did not challenge the basic statements that screams cannot be analysed with any of these tools. I cannot remember that he ever addressed it. Owen and Reich stated that it in fact occured occasionally in their work, but none of them provided a specific example, as far as I remember.

        Wouldn’t that make the argument concerning a Frye hearing relevant? If Owen is the only one that claims it can be done but cannot offer a single forensic scientist to support him?

      • Malisha says:

        LeaNder, I don’t tink so. The Frye hearing, as I understand it, goes simply to the METHODOLOGY used, not to the particular results any particular expert(s) came to USING that methodology. So the characteristics of the sample (was it speech, was it a scream, was it 3 seconds, was it 10 minutes, was it on the plain, in the rain, was it served with green eggs and ham?) are not relevant. Only acceptance of the methodology used is relevant in a Frye hearing. That’s my understanding. I could be wrong. ❓

    • Jun says:

      I honestly think the ruling is BS, and I have not read the ruling

      The main factor is, if the methods used can be used to establish accurate readings, which is a resounding yes

      Whatever they say about Owen, is fine, but Reich used good listening skills to render his opinion

      I think it’s fair to say that

      In Canada, we allow new sciences and methods in, if the detective and forensics presenting it, can reasonably explain why it is accurate and it happened with printing the leather gloves

      The detective explained that, each piece of leather can be unique, when making gloves, and he brought in lots of samples of leather gloves and printed them

      Then he explained that the odds are fairly good that there is not another leather print that will be similar

      I do agree that the state could have done a better job, and perhaps they can appeal the hearing

      In any case, I’d just bring up in opening the witnesses who testify that it was a kid screaming (Trayvon is the kid), that the witnesses testify that the screams end abruptly at the gun shot, and explain that GZ targeted and stalked Trayvon, and as Trayvon tried to get away, GZ went after him while armed and Trayvon was unarmed, and then GZ confronted Trayvon and attacked the kid

      It’s obviously Trayvon screaming

    • LeaNder says:

      Perhaps it got lost amidst all the other ‘noise’ of the Frye hearing

      No it didn’t really get lost, it was addressed indirectly by French stating that the physical, psychological conditions had a huge impact, even before you get to the scream. Wayman addressed the influences of the specific conditions or the precise setting.

      whonoze, Jeralyn wrote that now that she heard Trayvon’s voice she was more convinced than ever before that he wasn’t the one screaming. Of course Jeralyn is also an expert of attributing listener bias, or the desire to confirm your own position only to others.

      Do you acidentially remember the three new witnesses O’Mara presented and BDLR demanded a chance to depose them before the hearing? I wondered who they were at the time. Now of course we know: French, Doddington, Wayman.

      BDLR left guy to deal with this on his own, maybe since he did not bother one way or the other, or was doubtful of a sucess after that?

      Mom will rely on listener bias, the more he manages to convince the jury that GZ’s “wounds” show he was in a life threatening situation, he believes, they more they will follow him and hear that it is his scream. Sad as it may be.

      The absolutely ideal scenario, which strictly would result in the scenario we saw, unfinished reports, would be that it was a distraction by prosecution whose main aim was to distract them. On the other hand they could have responded to Mom’s recurring arguments that Tracy Martin denied it was his son’s voice.

      Let’s wait and see.

  91. Judy75201 says:

    I love that you said this, Fred: “I was in the waiting room at my doctor’s office down in Tennessee browsing through a dictionary looking for new words with which to torture y’all…”

    Please please, I love new words. (I did have to look up why you used the word “impeached” regarding West’s motion lol.)

  92. whonoze says:

    Another ‘bigger pciture’ question: Since BDLR is such a champion of the death penalty, has anyone reviewed his case record to see if the death penalty cases he has won fall disproportionally along racial lines (as it is my understanding that death sentences usually do)?

    • type1juve says:

      That’s an excellent question. And well… it is Florida.

    • LeaNder says:

      Good question and the odd feeling this whole matter sometimes leaves me with. I haven’t heard this about BDLR but about Corey, definitively. Didn’t she even manage to get a conviction for children as old as 12 or 13?

      • LeaNder says:

        This is what I wanted to write:

        Good question, connectd to the odd feeling this whole matter sometimes leaves me with.


      • cielo62 says:

        Leander~ That case involving a 12 year old murdering a young child was very controversial. Unfortunately I agree with Corey that a child that had been emotionally, physically and perhaps sexually abused since birth (like his teen mom) doesn’t stand much of a chance of “rehabilitation.” There is no “normal” in this boy’s life to work towards. Yes, human beings are thinking animals. BUT we are animals nonetheless. Any animal abused since birth would NOT be capable of learning to adjust to “normal” behavior. Heck, even an animal totally coddled since birth would not be able to adjust to “normal” in-the-wild behavior because it’s too late to learn it. Psychologists will tell you that moral norms are established in a human being by age 5. That case was highly emotional because of all the “who is the REAL victim here” hype. They were ALL victims! But in order to stop any more victims, one of the victims will have to be caged for the rest of his life. If he had been any other type animal, he would have been put down. I see this happen often with dogs bred for fighting. You can’t hold that case against Corey. There was no way to win for the benefit of society AND for the benefit of the child killer. IMOO.


      • LeaNder says:

        cielo, I do not agree. Not that it matters much here. A friend of mine, has a a knack for training/re-educating misused animals. Takes some time but one can easily watch the change.

        Heck, even an animal totally coddled since birth would not be able to adjust to “normal” in-the-wild behavior because it’s too late to learn it.

        That’s exactly what is done with elephant babies whose mother is killed or died. They would normally die too. They are brought up and fed and trained for a return to their normal “in-the-wild behavior”.

        Psychologists will tell you that moral norms are established in a human being by age 5.

        Maybe you can tell me what psychological theory or method you allude to here. I once did some volunteer work with formly institutionalized kids in a special project. Wasn’t easy, they were all full of mistrust, and could read you like a book, if you were not completely serious. From their stories it was hard to decide what was worse, the families they were born into or the institutional misuse they had to endure once they were taken away from them. The only thing I leaned from this encounter was the realization how lucky I was myself. The project was quite successful. I stay in sporoadic contact with my favorites. They do quite well.

        But I do not know anything about the stories of these kids, really.

        • cielo62 says:

          Leander~ I agree, it’s OT here. But both Paiget and Montessori stated the fixed moral character of a child by 5 or 6 years old. The case that you mentioned (Cristian Fernandez) was reduced to Manslaughter and sent to Juvenile Lock up until he’s 19 (he’s 14 this year). They have 5 years to work with him, then 8 years of supervised probation. The combined work of 5 power lawyers (they worked pro-bono) would have amounted to over $3 million dollars, not to mention all the psychological forensics and other experts to testify. Our system is certainly broken. I personally don’t know anyone with $3 million to spend on lawyers.


          • LeaNder says:

            Thanks, cielo, that’s interesting. Admittedly I did not read more than the headlines and I know zero of the case. But concerning PIaget, that is more a cognitive model, I somehow prefer Erickson, the only person that comes to mind concerning moral development is Lawrence Kohlberg, who expanded on Piaget’s developmental theory.

  93. whonoze says:


    If you had been the defense attorney for anyone convicted in a trial that included expert testimony by Tom Owen, or by any other forensic expert of any sort who failed to meet the rigor of the standards being developed by Wayman et. al., would you now be preparing an appeal based on JN’s ruling?

    Has JN made new law, potentially put Tom Owen out of business, and opened the gates for a flood of appeals? (I ask this question without bias, as I agree with you that in the long run this may be a good thing if true.)

    • Malisha says:

      She’s not an appellate judge; she’s not making law that overturns any other cases anywhere. What she IS doing is setting up some standards in THIS case that can have an effect elsewhere and that eventually will end up in an appeal case but NOT HERE because prosecution can’t appeal an adverse result; only defense can appeal an adverse result. And nobody can cite to the trial court for precedent. That’s why trial courts can do any old damn thing and get away with it; it can only get overturned; that’s the worst that can happen; and there’s no negative consequence to the judge if it does.

    • colin black says:

      No this is a unique event voice exemplars are one thing.
      To be convicted of on the sound of ones voice .

      How often is someones final fearfull scream as there about to be shot.
      An then actualy shot an murfered caught on a tape?

      Not very often I m o

      So no I don’t imagine there will be a rush of appeals based on J Nelsons ruleing.

      An the only careers I see getting ruined are Wests M O M

      An foggagges futre career plans of takeing the Bench

      Except a bench on the prison bus.

  94. colin black says:

    And heres a song for foggagge from Alex Harvey the true creator of Punk Rock a Scot of course.
    Some thing foggagge will be teling his future lawers an new neighbours for ever

  95. fauxmccoy says:

    i continue to be unfazed by nelson’s ruling. my husband and i routinely discuss ‘junk science’ used as forensic analysis, because of it’s inherent harm upon the innocent defendant. there are a number of forensic tools which we have long accepted in our court system that we now know are wrong and have no business in determining guilt or innocence.

    in particular, we are concerned about things such as bite-mark analysis, fingerprint analysis (the madrid bomber — http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/26/fbi_madrid_blunder/) and yes, even this aural/acoustic analysis. you may have noticed my relative silence during the frye hearing and that is because my husband and i do not consider it to be valid. furthermore, i think that assaulting the jury to such differing opinions would not be helpful and would likely lead to more confusion.

    for those reasons and for all that fred stated above, i am at ease with this ruling. the state has built their case, it is in no way dependent upon expert analysis of the screams heard in the 911 tape. i have no doubt that the circumstantial evidence surrounding those screams when explained clearly by BDLR will lead the jury into making the right determination.

    • William Walton says:

      Faux, I totally agree. I think JN made the right ruling. If I who is technical and have used acoustics in oilfield applications can become confused listening to West grill Owen on algorithms and a paper he did not author, why put the jury through this confusion. Let the ladies of the jury hear the tapes with their own ears, no technical confusion, and let them make up their minds as to what they heard. Just my take on the subject.

    • William Walton says:

      Faux, should have included that I have been involved with the use of acoustics in oilfield applications since I became involved in the oil field as a geo-chemist and geo-engineer in 1968. Thus, 45.5 years. Oh no, I just gave my age away. The point to make is that acoustics is not new science. Sound waves have been analyzed for a long time. I am happy with the fact that the jury of ladies will not have to go through the crap that West was throwing out. Sorry Prof, but I think on this techical front the attorney was just trying his best to confuse. Probalbly should not have said that because my oldest son is an attorney.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @william walton

        it’s likely your son knows the tricks, then. i doubt his feelings would be hurt. i have been enjoying my conversations with you here. don’t know why (oh yes i do, i worshiped my own father) but i am most comfortable in the company of older men. now, do not ask why my husband is 10 years younger 😉 i’m comfy with him too.

  96. nocamo33 says:

    Professor, First things first, thank you and God bless you and yours.


  97. Nef05 says:

    Thank you, Professor. And thank you for your hand on the tiller, keeping us focused on the evidence and the legal issues, and making this a safe place for us to interact. You and Crane-Station have my most grateful appreciation.

  98. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Anyone have any positive songs to post?