Thursday, June 20, 2013
Good evening:
We have a jury, an all female jury.
B-29
B-76
B-37
B-51
E-6
E-40
The four alternates:
E-54
B-72
E-13
E-28
Two males and two females.
Here’s a link to fauxmccoy’s chart on the jurors.
Those in green made the jury. Those in red were stricken.
I tried hundreds of cases during my 30 year career and never had an all female or an all male jury.
5 of the 6 women are white. One is Hispanic.
5 of the 6 women are mothers.
I would be very worried, if I were George Zimmerman, because I believe those mothers are not going to believe him. I think they are going to hold him accountable for killing an unarmed teenager.
I am unhappy that none of the jurors are black, but I do not believe that is going to affect the final outcome of this case.
I predict GZ will testify because Mark O’Mara did not voir dire the panel of jurors regarding a defendant’s right to remain silent and not testify. When my clients decided not to testify, I always made sure that the jurors understood that my clients were not required to testify and no one could assume that their silence was evidence of guilt.
Judge Nelson announced that counsel will give their opening statements beginning at 9 am EDT on Monday morning.
After she dismissed the remainder of the panel and swore in the jurors, Judge Nelson excused the jury and completed the evidentiary part of the Frye hearing.
Assistant State Attorney Manthei summed up the situation when he said there was nothing novel or new about the methodologies used by the State’s experts. What is new is a move across several different scientific disciplines to establish a universal set of standards to use when attempting to match a recording of an unknown voice to a database of recorded voices of known individuals in order to declare a match.
That is a far more complicated task than listening to a known voice and excluding that known individual as the source of a voice on a recording. There are only two possible sources of the terrified shriek that ends with the shot and it’s not difficult to exclude the armed defendant who admitted firing the fatal shot as the source of that scream.
Manthei added that the State was not responsible for the recent news reports that the defense had an expert who identified GZ as the source of the scream.
And some PJs mentioned hearing that in the news before reporting for jury service.
However, as it turned out, the defense could find no expert to testify to that opinion and the reports were false.
If I were Judge Nelson, I would rule that the State’s experts may testify and express their opinions. The defendant’s objections go to the weight of the evidence, not its admissibility.
Judge Nelson will issue her ruling after court reconvenes at 9 am tomorrow.
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Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Revoke bond!!!
Do I feel a motion for continuance based on PTSD and ill health coming on?
Perhaps the good professor will confirm this but I believe the correct legal term for what I just saw is called “HOOF! and is industry standard nomenclature for the sound one witness makes when seeing another barrister kicked in the nutz by a judge.
Other cases, we could always allow for the fact that someone else DID the crime. This case? He says he did the crime and it was not a crime because “he hit me first” and “God made me do it.”
NOT.
Did JN rule on the Frye?? I just read up and down this post… didn’t see anything..
MOM & Skeletor just got bitch slapped 🙂
BTW…..who is the guy with the slick backed hair?…..He looks like a creep……..
@MMP
First came to mind is the movie Frighteners character Agent Dammers played by Jeffery Combs when I saw the new guy at defense table.
Hairs combed to the wrong side…a bit older……..Other than that…spot on……a creep….
Must be one of those underpaid interns…..
“Mr. O’Mara is my mentor”………..loser…………
Yep!
The defense motions are so stupid… on the words profiled, vigilante, and etc… O’Mara needs to shut da hell up… I am so tired of the Defense already… You know I have always been a person… to believe innocent until proven guilty…. I have always gave doubt before a case…. but NOT this case…
“We have tried to date to be very careful withthe case”
MOM
So off topic but…
Who is the new cutie in the back?
yowza!!!
Oh, that’s me.
LOL
Tzar~ LOL! Yes, she’s easy on the eyes, right?
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He is not happy about prior ruling. Still trying to get self serving statements admitted even though she ruled on it.
I noticed it too but it’s only about two of GZ’s self serving statements made to two different State witnesses (presumably neighbours at the scene) which were recorded by SPD and which West was desperately trying to get admitted via one of the 8 exceptions res gestae.
In their reply opposing the State’s motion to exclude GZ’s self-serving statements MOM & Co did note they disagreed with the State’s claim that there were no res gestae statements and requested JN reserve ruling on it until they came up at trial. I don’t know what the rush is now, but West looked real desperate trying to convince JN to look at it today and sick when she refused. I am pretty sure one of the statements will be the one he made to W13:
but can’t recall which other one it could be, but I expect it is pretty much same theme. They must be desperate to get them in under one of the RG exceptions so that GZ doesn’t have to testify especially after BDLR’s thorough explanation of what was meant by being in reasonable fear of your life or GBH.
What the fuck is wrong West?
Does not bode well to tell a judge she’s wrong in her ruling….
Yeah Prof……..He’s coming unglued
Why is it taking so long for the judge to rule on this issue??!! What is O’Mara’s problem now??
Good morning everyone. So Mom forgot to get waiver for Fogen to skip court this morning. Hope that is how his entire day goes.
WTF He’s not in court?
Good morning! Court is in session!
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57590372-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-panel-of-women-jurors-a-slam-dunk-for-defense-expert-says/
The jury panel, chosen Thursday, is a “slam dunk” for the defense, said Jose Baez, a Florida defense attorney who was lead defense counsel on the Casey Anthony case. The Florida mother was acquitted in 2011 of killing her young daughter, Caylee.
“I think the defense clearly won the day on this one,” Baez said. “Any way you slice and dice it, this is a defense jury.”
“The only light I see for the prosecution here is that they may be able to relate to losing a son or try to envision that,” Baez said.
It’s peculiar that Baez has been saying these weird things (like the case was weak from the beginning and this is a slam dunk jury for the defense) since he handed the coup de grace to BDLR with those first two drafts of Serino’s memo. Perhaps he is playing footsie with someone influential in the Florida defense bar or perhaps (THIS is my real guess) he wants to do a press conference RIGHT AFTER CONVICTION in which he says, “If I were representing George Zimmerman he would be a free man today,” to advertise himself as the one and ONLY attorney to ever have if you have murdered someone in Florida. Saying it’s a weak case, while giving absolutely NO details, or saying it’s a defense slam dunk, also without specifics to support that ridiculous claim, HAS TO BE SELF-PROMOTION because there is no other possible explanation for a smart guy to say a stupid thing.
OMG, Baez is the laughing fool of the Florida jury system. The former bikini salesman had no idea of the law in the Casey Anthony trial and made a fool of himself the whole trial!
Only because her father, George, agreed to be thrown under the bus and Cheney and Linda Badin (sp?) was on the case the baby murderer got off.
George said early on he had lost one of his girls, he’d give his life not to lose the other one (CA). Baez is a joke riding on the coattails of the results of that case.
WHat’s Baez’s record to be honest? I am curious if Casey Anthony is his only claim to fame. I also do not know why Serino would use him.
Jun, you can bet that Serino knew what he was doing when he hired Baez. I don’t know what the connection is but that connection would make for the great second-to-last chapter of a mystery about who REALLY did the dirt in the Sanford PD. We know that Lee and Wolfinger were involved but that is the part of the iceberg that shows above water.
Serino knew from midnight 2/26/2012 that Fogen murdered Trayvon Martin but he also knew that he was not allowed to say so and he knew lots of other things.
Facts are flying around. I keep remembering Purswarden’s advice to writers in “The Alexandria Quartet”: You must catch every slip of wind.
FACT: Not a single cop who put in their report of the events that night says that he advised Fogen to go to the hospital because he needed stitches. Not a single cop even writes down that he urged Fogen to get checked at the hospital, for any reason. No mention. Just “he decided not to go” and “we canceled the second ambulance.”
FACT: Serino asked Singleton to do an interview of Fogen as soon as Fogen arrived at the station. IOW not to WAIT for Serino and NOT TO LET SOMEONE ELSE DO IT.
FACT: Smith drove Fogen into the station house without any other cop in the car. Huh?
FACT: One of the cops put something in the trunk of the vehicle after “frisking” Fogen in the garage of the station house.
FACT: They let Fogen wash up at the station house BEFORE taking pictures of him.
FACT: Serino changed his work hours after the case blew up and went public.
Baez got on Serino’s case because Serino retained him. But you don’t have to presume that Serino is his only client or that protecting Serino’s interests is his only goal. He can be serving more than one master if the masters are in agreement about it OR if it can never be found out that he did so.
Good morning, Rachel: Baez and Geragos … they’ve certainly won high profile cases, but they’re nuts on this, in my non-lawyerly opinion.
These women, some likely smarter than others, are not going to get all distracted by bullet trajectories and audiology analysis claptrap. With Bernie’s guidance, they’re going to KISS and see it for what it was — a stalking and shooting.
You are right about that. Bernie is pretty darn straightforward while West rambles and MO’M talks in circles and never says a thing (probably because there is undisputedly nothing he can say hahaha).
It is pretty simple. The voice? No experts necessary. Screaming – shot fired – silence.
And I’ve heard some outhouse refuse say stupid things like GZ didn’t continue to follow, he was on his way back to his car but was brutally attacked (although the most brutal thing about his injuries seems to be those knuckle bandages for his knuckle head that his online nursing student wife applied). Yet when Serino asked him why he KEPT FOLLOWING him, he didn’t say he was on his way back to his car, he said he wasn’t following him, he was just GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION.
Just too much there for even the “best” defense attorney, though he seems to have gotten the worst.
Geragos lost the Scott Peterson case….evidence almost all circumstantial.
There’s no way to say how it will go with the jury, however, the evidence is reasonable and it would be a huge injustice to frame the kid for attacking Fogen, just cause Fogen is a coward that blames everyone, and there is no evidence he did anything to Fogen, except try to run away, and ask Fogen why he was stalking him, and end up in a struggle where he stated “get off me”
Even witness 6 does not really support Fogen’s story, because he saw the middle of it, and, he states that they are parallel to the sidewalk on the grass, with their legs straight out on both of them plus he’s told way to many versions that he’s not very credible
Besides, what is Jose’s trial record? I only know him for Casey Anthony. I’d have to see his full record to take what he says truthfully, because, if his only shine is Casey, it does not say much about what he knows about juries IMO
Funny thing, I heard an interview with Baez, and a host asked him if he felt Casey was innocent, and Baez said yes. The host then asked if Baez would trust Casey to babysit his kids, and Baez refused to answer the question. Sounds like he does not believe his client.
Morning, Malisha — So true. Fame is fleeting … you gotta keep your name out there. Baez stakes out a position that his defense bar buds will like … and if he’s wrong, dead wrong, he can say “Well, O’Mara muffed it.”
Baez has no business commenting on this case considering the fact that Serino has him on retainer.
I agree!
Rachael~ I didn’t know it was even possible to HATE Baez more, but he just managed it. I DESPISE that SOB! What, women are brainless? They can’t SEE evidence, understand and judge it? What a sorry misogynistic bastard he is!!
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Our parrot Nikko, for the curious:
Fred threatened to fry him in the skillet the other day, for chomping on the iBeats Monster earbuds that I got from a dumpster, that cost $109 to replace. Fortunately, we were able to redneck fix them with electrical tape!
Oh, he’s beautiful!!! Always wanted an African Gray.
African Greys?……..Are they a subspecies of American Grey Aliens?
MMP~ They are their own species.. with their own continent!
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I don’t know, but while there are larger birds, they are not small, African Grey’s are considered large and therefore, might be able to carry coconuts.
Rachael~ LOL! About a foot long, with beaks able to break hard nuts… and bones! But they are not migratory.
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agree he is beautiful!
…he runs around here barking orders, like he owns the damn place. ..
You mean he doesn’t?
Crane~ parrots can be VERY destructive! I had a Cherry Headed Conure that I named Quadaffi because he was a closet terrorist (he destroyed all the buttons on my shirts!)
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We are so very familiar with parrot destruction, yes, believe you me! What happened, is, Fred has not been paying enough attention to Nikko lately, so Nikko decided to cut off Fred’s pipeline to the internet. Nikko is very smart, very needy, very bonded to Fred, and extremely cunning. He knew what he was doing!
Crane~ “Nikko: GUILTY as charged!”
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To the naughty step!
LOL! Naughty, naughty Nikko. 🙂
I need native American ears again:
West to Manthei: Shut up the faucet about 34:45 or shortly thereafter.
I didn’t trust my ears so I searched for a recording of the Frye Hearing.
Is that, what he says?
LeaNder,
That’s what I hear.
Thanks, Soulcatcher. The nerves are raw. They could of course study for quite some time now, that no one in their camp has any problems with George’s odd like help barks compared to the scream. The experts thaught us we never speak the same way ever, remember Dr. French, or Doddington’s speech dance? Will we see elaborate mathematical acrobatics proving this?
It’s really, really crazy to watch this. Four top experts, the best you can get, some with high security clearing taking on prosecution’s two. Mind you, I hate to admit that I slightly agree concerning Reich, not concerning all, but with quite a few things. But I do not agree either based on my life experience that you cannot distinguish between the scream of a male or female and, believe it or not, I even once responded to the screams of a senior. Admittedly someone I knew. And I did recognize it.
West’s problem is that he does not even seem to understand, what he reads:
As far as I remember it, there wasn’t anything about loudness anywhere. I am supposing Reich is older? But that is not what he wrote. If I remember correctly he wrote, that the enhancement techniques strictly don’t improve quality very much. And that is pretty easy to understand. How could a specific alghorithm, or some type of i-vector approach, could figure out anything beyond average human speech, or music, for instance. If the quality is bad, why and what is the reason. I can imagine it would be pretty hard to write whatever clairvoyant formula, some type of one size fits all. I never understood defense’s fixation with enhancement. But it is interesting that O’Mara somehow censors what Reich really wrote. Did he read it as a ridicule of defense efforts?
There is something really wrong about the dates he gives concerning Reich’s WP article. When exactly was that printed? Why would it be defense’s job to get it for them? They had it since when last year? Well many of us could read it th
Same scenario in court:
Last time I counted, 4 lawyers and three interns, two female, one male facing 3 prosecution guys.
And right at the center of this scenario, which somehow does not seem to fit a defendant, or sorry an accused, like Fogen, O’Mara dropped a statement about prosecution “striking four white women”. I really would like to eavesdrop a little on defense’s internal communications. The whole scenario is somehow surreal.
Something else. I wouldn’t mind to have a chat with Doddington, there were times when he did not quite give West what he wanted, there was a slight resistance. Not even Dr. Nakasone did surrender to his evaluation.
West’s “scientist’s scientist”, seems to be basically an engineer, at least he studied whatever type of technical field. Nothing wrong with Doddington, but I didn’t really have the impression he is a second Einstein. My impression is much more that he is basically an engineer that pretty steadily developped his careerpath into a specific direction. Developping test settings that allow to compare and evaluate different technical approaches in IT speech technologies for the most diverse applications, I would assume.
@leander
Reich statements sound odd, until you hear what he is talking about.
I isolated the 2 seconds where he claims to hear the “these shall be”. Judge for your self.
When you isolate the voice for the “there shall be”
It sounds like it could be Osterman or Taffe
Weird. It actually sounds more like these shall sleep (or they shall sleep) to me but it sounds like a differnt voice the GZ (or that which I’ve heard in that snippet with Trayvon).
@Amsterdam
Yes, I agree there is something like “these shall be” but my logic says it is GZ’s voice but it doesn’t make sense so I believe it is like that but by logic he is probably saying something else.
For example, for a long time I was convinced I could hear shortly after the shot Jeremy saying in a low voice, whispering almost, “Is the clock hit?”. I listened over and over again for days but I still heard the same, and as it didn’t make sense I thought I was must be imagining it so left it and moved on to another segment.
After Reich’s testimony the other week I started to look again to see what I could hear apart from the “I’m begging you”, and various helps, and on returning to that segment it suddenly dawned on me that what Jeremy was actually saying was,
I will swear blind Jeremy says that which, IIRC, would appear to contradict his statements to SPD that he couldn’t see Trayvon’s colour.
can you try to slow it down slightly? Doddington used a free tool that was on the web. Austerity? No, Audacity. It’s listed here as the first. What are you using?
That was a clear signal that he usually does not bother about anything but technical evaluation designs. It may well be the core reason why forensic scientist hesitate to surrender to his special test environments.
@amsterdam
Just listened to it again but this time with my own download and equipment and I would say that the first word begins with “pl” and not “th” and that it could be “police” or “please” and “should” instead of “shall”. Certainly “police” and “should” seem to fit more with what we know was going on, so for example “police should be…” could be even the neighbour saying the police should be hear at any moment which I believe one of the witnesses testified to more or less saying.
And this is why it is so very subjective, albeit not for that do I think it should have to be excluded considering that handwriting experts are not scientists either and they continually give expert testimony in court, and it is up to the jury to decide what weight they give such testimony once the pros and cons of handwriting interpretation has been fully explained to them.
That’s what he said. He was referring to his claim that the taxpayers were already on the hook for $70K, a claim that Mantei promptly challenged.
familar argument. You can find it on Jera’s TalkLeft.
You can find the same type of argument in Senior’s book. All the money spent in FBI hours to study GZ’s racism should have been spent in studying the Boston bombers. And there is a big conspiracy connected with it. Surprise, surprise, Crump knows Obama.
If the defendant and/or his wife were employed to pay for their own living expenses, O’Mara and West would have had more of the donated money to cover their costs and wouldn’t complain about how much the case is costing the State.
O’Mara never filed that application to find GZ indigent because there was good chance that the court would order the defense fund dissolved, which would also mean that GZ would have no money for living expenses. O’Mara pretty much said that in a television interview.
West said, ‘I think we should shut off the faucet’. Then he tried to calculate the figure using 100 dollars and hour.
It came to 6,500 and not 70k.
West did say that, but I believe he was referring to a faucet of money paid to the expert for services continuing to be rendered and billed, not to Mantei’s or Owen’s words.
You are right about West losing it, however, and I will be posting an article within the hour expressing my concerns about him.
Thanks Fred, I have a look at it again with that in mind.
Thanks Fred, I have a look at it again with that in mind.
Thank you Professor. I was checking out the effects of swallowing chew tobacco. The chemicals he is swallowing are highly dangerous.
There are 2,550 known compounds in processed tobacco in addition to nicotine. Smokeless tobacco contains at least 30 metals including nickel and a radioactive compound called polonium-210. Formaldehyde and nitrosamines are also found in smokeless tobacco. All of these compounds have been known to cause cancer.
the complete article is here:
http://healthread.net/snuff.htm
I do realize the chew tobacco is not the major cause of Wests’ health issues. It sure as heck does not help.
HAHA LeaNder, I understood your need for “native American ears” to be a reference to Native Americans, and I couldn’t figure that out, and was thinking it had to do with the Navajo Code Breakers!
Yes, I should have reflected on that one slightly. it crossed my mind too. The more obvious native speakers would have made it much easier. right?
But I also know, you enjoy to be amused by these little non-native speach defects. I love native Americans, although since a Canadian friend wrote his thesis on administrative prevarications around their treatment and right. I know more about “the first nation” there. Strictly one of these day, I should take a look in how they are doing these days.
Sorry, I guess this will double again. Coffee …
This article pretty well spells it out for me, these are the things I’m looking for too. Although I don’t necessarily agree with his opinion of the verdict, i believe it is a possability. The last sentence ties it alltogether.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morris-w-okelly/the-george-zimmerman-game_b_3424191.html?utm_hp_ref=trayvon-martin
He circles pretty precisely my feelings, and strictly I read the same narrative from MOM’s special session with the jury. I surely hope we both are wrong, the only thing I hope the jury will see clearly is the huge amount from the most elite support circles that have chosen sides in our case.
What I fear is that there is not enough brain power in the jury pool, but sometimes human empathy gets pretty close. Or that they could surrender to manipulator O’Mara. I haven’t got further than 51 by now. OS reader but had comparatively little to say about Rene’s diligent efforts.
Wasn’t she also the one that thanked O’Mara for telling the jury they did not need to trust all witnesses? This lady could be more clever than she lets on. The alignment of 7 + “accused” against 3 prosecution attorneys must have been pretty easy to see and filter into thought for all of them. Or at least the more reflective ones.
Oh I do not think all the brou-ha-ha about how hard it is to prove OR the idea that the murder-2 charge was a step too far carries much weight. In fact I think articles that say that are just trying to make the “game” more exciting for the sports fans.
Let’s see, if I’m trying to prove murder-2 in this case, what do I need and what do I have?
1. Need “killed.” CHECK. It was admitted.
2. Need “without regard for life.” CHECK. All the cops on the scene, all witnesses who heard or saw anything, and Fogen himself, agreed that Fogen did not even TRY to get medical attention to the scene where a citizen had just fallen to the ground with an injury.
3. Need “depraved mind” — CHECK. Simply add up “These assholes, they always get away” and “fucking punks” and you have reached 99+ on the depravity scale.
4. Need “ill will or malice” — CHECK. Add up “He looks like he’s on drugs or somepin” and “somepin’s wrong with him” and “he’s just walking around, lookin about” and “he didn’t look like an athlete” and “the suspect emerged from the darkness” and, my personal favorite [in answer to “Did he say the word homie?”]: “I don’t know.”
How much simpler can it get?
Opposite this, what does the defense have?
5. Well Trayvon Martin should have… [NOPE, inadmissible]
6. Well Trayvon Martin shouldn’t have … [NOPE, inadmissible]
7. Well the accused citizen is not a racist … [WHO CARES, since he’s a murderer?]
8. Well we need more time and we don’t have enough money.
[SO EAT DIRT AND LOSE.]
Frankly, don’t see where the difficulty comes in.
Malisha~ IMHO, all they can play up is the “fact” ( I say that loosely) that gz was “safeguarding” his neighborhood. They can bring in crime stats, but those will need to be verified by the prosecution to NOT be the false ones put out by the HOA. Other than false picture, you’re right. They have nothing.
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George Zimmerman Jury Selection – Day 9
thanks SG, see you in the morning, not sure about 6 am though!
Thanks for the information about E6. I didn’t make notes on the 2 left on and couldn’t remember.
Trayvon was 367ft away from home when he was killed. the distance from the mail shed at the clubhouse to where trayvon was killed was over 400ft. If that”s not evidence of stalking i don’t know what is.
The four women BDLR struck that were challenged by MOM were: B12, B86, E6 and B76. JN ageed that B12 and B86 were struck on non-gender grounds so they are out. What I remember is that B12 accessed the defense beg site and B86 talked about TM being expelled. For the other two, E6 and B76, JN agreed with the challenge and left them on. BDLR brought up E6 twice more but didn’t argue, sorta.
E6 , states concerns were about her reaction to sequestration re her kids, and they are concerned that her remark about ‘innocent poeple go to jail’ (her comment, not MOM’s) and the chance that she will be focussed on penalties aspect.
State said they would like to backstrike E6, but will accept the judge’s ruling. They did not push for this for some reason.
Further (I missed this today live, sorry if it’s duplicated from the live thread), but after JN ruled on E6, the state brought up an additional concern before the Frye hearing restarted.
Interesting, what would a psychiatrist, who does evaluations for the court (Dr. Danziger of Casey Anthony case), have to do in this case, as a ‘possible’ witness? Would his evaluation of the defendant if done while he was encarcerated before bond, come into play?
Could Dr. Danziger be one of the ‘confidential’ witnesses for the defense or state?
‘Possible witness because the defense doens’t know yet what to rebutt or what they will need for mitigation by way of a psych eval?
Ref to Danzieger in the selection/strikes, is wftv’s video Part 12.
Close to the beginning.
http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/day-9-week-2-of-george-zimmerman-trial-part-12/v4wLW/
JN Does not allow the strike, even with the info about pj recognizing, the name JD.
ay2z,
In the following jailhouse call at timestamp 7:42, gz tells his brother-in-law that O’Mara is going to have a forensic psychiatrist see gz at the jail.
http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15560328/data/1/-/jjwx3nz/-/Call-46.null
Here a wikipedia link on “forensic psychology”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_psychology
Here is a quote from this link:
Well you know, innocent people DO go to jail. Anybody who would disagree with that hasn’t been around very long or is being either naive or dishonest.
Malisha~ that is true. BUT NOT IN THIS CASE.
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Wow, there may be a clue to what will be in the defense’s opening statement and why the defense fought for E6.
The state reopened it’s claim to strike, the judge would not do it. The judge just allowed in, a seed that one of the women jurors will bring into evidence and not selectively set aside, because she heard it in the courtroom before the judge in this case.
The judge was not asked to consider how the juror might bring this into evidence, because it was information gained during the jury selection side of trial and that is not ‘outside’ the courtroom, but brough into the courtroom during ‘trial’. The judge made her decision to side with her earlier decision to accept the juror and not allow the strike based on someone recognizing a name.
In the Casey Anthony case, the defense used the defendant’s story about sexual abuse, and listed Dr. Danziger to testify to what was in his report, and thereby testify in lieu of the defendant, to verify her story. The jurors made the leap to believe the lawyer’s story without further ‘evidence.’.
The state,, the defendant, her lawyers and the judge, met behind closed doors about these psych doctors as witnesses, and she decided, it was not in her best interest to allow them to testify to back up her story in opening statement. Evidence never came in, the jurors believed the story over the expert coroner’s opinion of ‘homicide’ and the tactic worked beautifully.
The state had the report in that case, but in this case, Ws there a report of the psuchiatrist or psychologist given to the state and did the state depose Dr. Danzieger and any psychologist who got the defendant’s story?
The expert, may be Dr. Danzieger, and if he’s never called, his role in the case, may still work its way by assu,ption, to E6 and she may bring it to the whole jury.
None of the jury may know this is bringing in something from the ‘outside’ that may have to be set aside.
ay2z~ What could a forensic psychiatrist have to say in this case? gz’s ADHD does NOT stop him from knowing the difference between right and wrong. Neither does his narcissistic sociopathology, since it appears that such a thing is widespread in society and only a small fraction of those become criminals. Maybe his IQ? Well, that only matters in death penalty cases, and this isn’t one of them. E6 sucks, BUT even SHE cannot put aside the total lack of DNA on Trayvon’s hands and clothes AND the total lack of bruising on either gz or Trayvon’s hands and arms. Honestly, the defense has NOTHING.
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YAY MIAMI HEAT! HOODIES UP !!! 88-95
They deserve it
Such a tough series
such close games throughout
Great game, too. After all the blowouts this was a really good game.
Congrats Heat! Hoodies Up!!!
It was terrific! Hoodies up for the Heat. Mikey Arison’s team has supported the memory of Trayvon for sure.
[Deleted irrelevant trash talk about a basketball game]
For me, this is my first time commenting.I know & truly believe that GZ, fogen , murdered Trayvon. I get it that the Miami Heat stood in respect last year, with Hoodies Up for Trayvon. Everyone must come together in heart & soul to make sure rotten Fogen goes to prison where I think he should’ve been a long time ago. This is my 1st time commenting.I have been reading & faithfully following Prof. Leatherman
& each & every one of you for 8 months. I’m a mid fifties WF, liberal, childless, animal lover. I’ve had way more than enough of the rotten lies from the shameless defense scum for fogen. For months I read all you guys saying fogen, not knowing what it meant, finally someone else asked & I got my answer. One last thing, my worst fear is the juror that said the RIOTS,3 times she said RIOTS, scary, a racist in my mind. We must keep the best outlook for Trayvon’s Mom & Dad, & Brother. Bless Rev Sharpton, & MSNBC. Hoodies up Monday morning, Bless you Trayvon, I’ll be watching every minute.
anita keys~ HOODIES UP! Glad you spoke up! Justice IS coming, and it’s coming from ALL sides, all ages, all colors, all creeds. Welcome!
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Yes!!!!
Mickey Arison.
Does anyone have any insight into this convoluted question I have? Appreciate any input.
Since Florida’s 10/20/life gun law is included in the charging information, and it mandates a 25-life sentence only upon conviction of any predicate felony, I have questions.
Is the jury informed of this before deliberations. The jury does not deliberate on a separate verdict, do they? It appears to be a statute predicated on the conviction of another crime, so that it is an automatic verdict. Is that correct? If the jury is informed, does it come in the form of jury instructions, or does O’Mara somehow inform them, prior to deliberations? If they are informed, is there any reason to inform them it is a mandatory 25-life sentence?
I guess what I’m asking, is can these ladies bring a unanimous manslaughter verdict, thinking they were giving him a lesser conviction than murder (in a compromise for a juror(s) who might want a conviction), and NOT know they were actually condemning him to the same sentence as murder two.
I’m confused, because it doesn’t appear to be a “separate” crime, but rather a conjoined crime – if that makes any sense…
The State had this motion in limine granted.
http://tinyurl.com/pneaecu
I don’t think the jury will hear about the penalty.
I’m guessing, not until the penalty phase.
I thought the jury is only part of the penalty phase in a capital murder case, where they have to decide on live without parole or the death penalty.
Thank you so much! That is perfect.
Penalty Phase is judge, not jury, right?
I am dying to know is there evidence that we don’t know about that the state maybe holding or is it all on the table now.
Fogens’ phone records were sealed. We won’t see them until the prosecution enters them at trial. They’re supposed to be very damaging to the defense. There are also crime scene photos and autopsy photos that are exempt from the Sunshine Law, that will also come out at trial. There may have been other statutory exemptions, but that’s all I remember off the top of my head.
@Tee.
Yes, there is, and also explanations of evidence, such as the clubhouse and M&I Bank videos.
If Sybrina takes the stand and they play the 911 call for her, and — still in her beautiful grace — a tear runs down her cheek as she says, “That’s Trayvon. That’s my baby,” each one of those mothers will know in her hearts whose cries of pain and terror and sadness those were. The women of the jury will be the true audio experts.
MOM and West will object to shows of emotion in the courtroom. Probalby put a motion in the file by tomorrow afternoon, five to five.
Another plus, I think, among these women jurors is that E-6 was a victim of domestic abuse. Perhaps can relate to “bullies.”
And let’s not forget the girlfriend who filed a restraining order against for domestic violence.
Hey guys
In 1955 12 white men served on the jury to decide the case in the Emmett Till murder. 58 years later 6 women will decide the case in the Trayvon Martin murder.
Sunny Hostin and Paul Callan analyze the all woman jury.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/20/exp-erin-all-women-jury-for-zimmerman-murder-trial.cnn.html
They both have interesting pov’s, however I agree with Sunny. Five of these jurors are mothers, and like she says, can be partial and sensitive to the family’s loss.
Paul, on the other hand, believes because these jurors are all white, they won’t be able to the family’s loss, and are therefore more inclined to side with the defense.
But then he goes on to say, an all woman jury is a man’s worst fear. Go figure.
An interesting study on defendants who take the stand with criminal records:
http://legalworkshop.org/2009/09/14/taking-a-stand-on-taking-the-stand-the-effect-of-a-prior-criminal-record-on-the-decision-to-testify-and-on-trial-outcomes
It says that telling a jury about a criminal past makes it more likely you’re convicted, and that for defendants who testify with records, half of those people see their record come into trial as impeachment material.
Unabogie~ unfortunately, gz has no “convictions” just several arrests that he got wrist-slaps for. Is that enough to bring before a jury?
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Politan walked the route, after the NEN call to the “altercation” with a stopwatch. As LLMPapa, Teeslaw and many, many others have repeatedly shown us – we know it doesn’t work. There’s no way to make it work.
Will HLN FINALLY begin to start showing the lies fogen told?
Ugh! Politan gets on my nerves with his bias. When he was doing the re-enactment he kept saying that it was 2 days after the shooting. Looking forward to watching the stopwatch episode.
More GREAT NEWS for George! LOL LOL!
Ha! Good one, LLMPapa!!
Several pet lovers on jury. If Bernie can drop it in that Fogen hit girlfriend and assaulted another woman, jurors won’t like it. But if it surfaces that he kicked his girlfriend’s dog in the gut, they’ll despise him for for all eternity.
He originally (supposedly) got the gun because of a dog that was “bothering” him.
That in itself makes a not-even-subliminal statement bound catch juror attention. Who does that?
Trained Ob~ I’d send him to prison for that alone!
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He kicked that little dog in the stomach. Mean ass psycho. Just think how it must have hurt the poor little dog? Then he escalated and killed a kid. SLAP! Get your a** to jail, Zimmerman!
says he got the gun to shoot a dog
and then shoots Trayvon
so basically a black teenager is a “dog” to Fogen and Fogen does not like dogs very much
Jun, he likes HIS dog who gives HIM stature. It’s dogs HE doesn’t get to control that he doesn’t like. Same with women, kids, “neighborhood residents.” If it is clear that HE is in control and HE is the alpha, no prob. If a woman says she’s no longer interested in him, BAD WOMAN, BAD WOMAN, GET HIT.
Someone else’s dog? GET KICKED.
Some guy walking in the rain and not under your control? KILL.
90,000 dollar man didn’t catch that? Hahaha
Lonnie~ Alas, gz’s animal abuse probably won’t be introduced at trial. 😦
That’s a very good bet, but one never knows.
I feel like my head is going to explode every time I read this
what a sad statement on the evolution of human cognition
As much as you hate it, it is not always bad
Mi Madre used to say that all the time and she hated when I went out late and always worried about “street dangers” and she used to tell me not to stay out too late
Did your mom think 7 p.m. was late when you were 17?
No, my curfew was 10pm
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To be honest, she sometimes did. If it was summer she would not care so much.
Jun, my mother was the same way. She worried ALL the time. Now I have become my mother! LOL!
Haven’t we all. Sigh.
That’s what I am saying
I do not know her meaning as I did not watch jury selection and I have faith that they chose reasonable and impartial people
I am saying perhaps she was saying to not be out that late to avoid dangerous creeps like Fogen
When I was a kid, cops, teachers, my own parents warned me about creeps like Fogen
I swear Fogen would murder a 6 year old and claim it was self defense and have Omara sell that bullshit
It’s also prolly why Sybrina won her suit against the HOA because there were repeated complaints regarding Fogen’s aggressive and pointless stalking and threatening behavior and unwillingness to identify himself to residents to whom he was a stranger
It would be a real injustice to justify the kid’s killing by allowing Fogen’s attempted framing of the kid, like jeez, Fogen would not leave this kid be, all because he was walking home with skittles and ice tea
the point is that it is irrelevant
the idea that he only had the right to be safe in the day time should never be implied much less stated. it’s good ole fashion victim blaming.
I agree it is irrelevant, just wanted to point out that it’s not always meant to be a negative comment is all
Anyways, she can easily get booted later on, because as a juror she has to judge on evidence only, and there is no reasonable way to say Trayvon attacked Fogen, since there is no forensics that say he did and that sure shows that Fogen staged his injuries
Prof.:
I had a thought about how JN will rule on the Frye motion, and I’m wondering if you think there’s anything to it…
I’ve always heard that judges do not like to set new precedents, and it seems to my lay person’s view that that would be what JN would be doing if she excluded the State’s experts. As Manthei said, the standards committee is the new thing here, but at issue is more than that. If i understand the nature of a Frye hearing correctly, it is not a place for one set of experts to decry another set of experts who have already been accepted by the courts on the basis of their methods not meeting State of the Art criteria. Thus, by excluding Owen and Reich, Nelson would effectively be undoing the rulings of previous judges, and superseding them based on the testimony of witnesses (3 out of 4 anyway) who have NO record of serving as experts at trial.
If she rules for exclusion, that would seem to set a precedent that in any future trial in FL, expert witnesses could be EXCLUDED on the basis of some group of PhDs dismissing their techniques as obsolete, yes? If so, I can’t imagine JN would want to make that kind of leap… Especially when, as Mr. Manthei noted, if the State’s experts are indeed incompetent, the Defense will have a full opportunity to demonstrate that in court.
“If the evidence and methodology is really as bad as the Defense believes it to be, then they ought to welcome the jury hearing about it, rather than trying to keep it from them.”
IANAL, of course, but i can’t see how that argument doesn’t win the day.
I agree with you.
I have been thinking on the 6-woman group from a different vantage point- one of female group psychology. Although I am not a psychologist, I have long been fascinated. A group of three, for example, acts a certain way, assumes certain pattern of roles.
Anyhow, when I was in a jail (before prison), I happened to be in a situation where I lived in overcrowded quarters, in a 4-person cell, only with 6 women. There was most certainly a leader, another couple of others who never said much, and some in between.
But I’ll tell you what, the group of women bonded. We came from all backgrounds, and the charges ranged from complicity to murder a young son, to petty drug charges, plus stuff between. We paid little attention to that, and bonded as a close-knit group, overall. There were small dustups, because of the setting, but 6 women in a group is not like if you added in some men.
I do realize the two alternate males are part of the mix for a while. But, the women are apt to bond closely.
I’ll try to see if PubMed has anything on the dynamics of this size group- of women.
thank you for the analysis and story
I intimate the same gender group dynamic differences that you do, blame it on testosterone.
It is different, I am telling you. And women are not the ‘pussies’ that the sexist Geragos seems to think they are.
Not only are they apt to bond, they are apt not to be very amused.
I don’t know how any one who has bore a child can forgive or excuse what Zimmerman did
I was pissed when I heard him cursing out someone’s child he did not even know.
I mean, I would not be able to help but think, ‘now, if that was my son…’
and I knew that he ran away frightened before he was chased again and had to run again from his own house….
…I might just go back to my motel room and stick pins in the GZ voodoo doll and…
i would be very interested in anything you discover, crane.
When I first heard about this, I had no idea about the racial implications, I just know a kid was killed and the man who killed him walked away with no investigation, just his word that it was self-defense, even though no one saw what happened.
As a parent of a son only a couple years older at the time, I was furious. If that had been my kid I’d be screaming for an arrest and investigation too.
I mean of course the guy said it was self-defense. But he has every reason to lie.
And then I heard about the racial implications – my son being biracial, living in a neighborhood where his adorible cornrows as a child were now “thuggish” dreadlocks as a teen – well, as a parent, it was all too much for me as a mom. And I don’t think I am all that different from any other mom, no matter what color they or theirs may be. A mom is a mom.
I agree. And in a group like that, there is a natural tendency to look for commonality, and it stands to reason, much of the bonding comes from motherhood.
Agreed. Bonding happens in a hurry, even with diverse backgrounds, age disparity, economic gaps, etc.
For men who anticipate a cat fight, forget it.
@ Trained Observer: “For men who anticipate a cat fight, forget it.”
Typical male fantasy.
I’ve seen various comments ranging from “catfights and infighting” to “too emotional” to “hair and makeup parties”.
The thing I haven’t seen, which is the direction I lean toward is “compromise”.
(IMO) When women in a group have to achieve, together, something of importance, I believe they are far more likely to work toward a measure of compromise where everyone feels like they have contributed, been heard and achieved their right of having an input in the final outcome.
I believe there will be those who adhere strongly to opposing positions, and I believe they will be able to agree on a lesser charge – thereby allowing a conviction (for those who believe in guilt) but not murder (for those who lean toward acquittal). I think they’ll come back with manslaughter.
To me – this is a good thing, because I have no reason to believe they are aware that Florida’s gun law mandatory 25-life applies upon conviction of ANY predicate felony, that is a part of Corey’s charging information.
That said – I need to post some questions about whether they will “become” aware of that law before deliberations…
BTW – I reserve the right to change my mind (female perogative 🙂 ) after we see how poorly the defense does.
Because Trayvon was a minor, I believe it’s 35 to life for manslaughter with a gun. JN is not known for going easy once a guilty verdict is handed down. Even on manslaughter, Fogen is going away for a long, long time.
This is a very interesting thread. Crane, you are absolutely right that the women will bond. And I agree with your, Nef05, that they will work together in a collaboration, everyone will be heard, and everyone’s opinions will be respected. They will take their responsibility very seriously, and they will consider the evidence and the judge’s instructions methodically. I don’t agree that opposing positions will be the end result, though. I think they are likely to come to an agreement. It will be a rational decision. They will put their emotions aside.
@TO – of course, you’re right. I left out the +10 for minor status. I don’t believe JN would make it concurrent, either. Wasn’t she mentioned as a child advocate?
@Molly – I surely hope they do. Though I wasn’t intending to express the end result would be opposing views. I meant to express that I thought opposing views would be worked out in a compromise, rather than a hung jury. At least that’s my wish for the Martin/Fulton family to receive justice on behalf of their son, and not have to be dragged through this all over again. 🙂
I don’t think they will hang on the greater charge, not after hearing the evidence. I am open to being wrong, and I may be, but I don’t think they will.
Hair and makeup parties. What sexist bullshit.
Crane~ You don’t think that the jury will convict on Murder 2? Why not?
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I am sorry if I misled, what I meant was, I doubt if they will be hung on murder 2 and go to lesser charges. I think they may agree on murder 2, or at least I think that is more likely.
WEll you can bet your socks, that no one will be doing anyone else’s dirty laundry, like the lady on the CA jury did for a young man who was never practiced in doing his own. Washed,, pressed and folded.
Oh hell no she didn’t!
Well, that ain’t gonna happen…
I hope JN does the right thing and let’s the experts in.
I am fairly sure she will because Trayvon deserves a voice beyond the grave
No need.
Especially now.
BwaHaahahahahaaaaa…
I got the feeling Judge Nelson was boring a hole in West head, could be wrong but I think the experts are coming in.
If she does the obvious, and does let the experts in (no one is claiming the science is absolute and there is an alternative for the jurors to accept, the concept (and agreement of the experts on both sides) about familial listeners, should be straight forward and understandable with a bit of common sense, will we see history repeat itself with this defense, and have a motion to appeal the decision on the table? Maybe even going to the 5th for an appeal?
And if JN does not allow the state’s experts in, will the state be able to appeal the decision?
Will JN possibly go for a compromise, toss one of each side, or ask for stipulations and not allow any in? (stipulation about the accepted historic views and the ability of familial listeners to best recognize a speaker (each side has those witnesses).
Correction, Doddington and the Wayman mathematician, do desire absolutes, which in their world, make evaluations of forensic samples an impossibility.
I’m thinking it’s good that one of the women is or was a nurse, and another is – what, a surgical assistant? They’re likely to see through GZ’s ‘life-threatening’ injuries, even under those great ol’ big knuckle bandages.
The surgical assistant is E-13, an alternate.
The CNA is juror #2.
B-37 also. Works in a chiropractor’s office. Likely she’s seen auto accident patients that have had facial injuries.
A SIX WOMAN jury?
The woman judge worked out REAL good for ya, didn’t she Mr. Lawyer Manz?
LOL
LOL! I am sure that fogen is happy tonight. He can control women, slap in the mouth, locking out the electrical, kick their small pet….. what more could a bully want in life, but to have the chance at putting women in their place, and getting them to do his bidding on national television. NOT, fogen… NOT!
I’m hoping he goes off during his trial. The his pattern when things don’t go his way he loses it. that why he killed Trayvon because he would cooperate with him.
Remember that the woman he turned off the electricity on was his mother! What kind of man does something like that to his mother? I have two sons, they are so sweet to me. I can’t imagine them even thinking of doing something like that.
For a contrast, look at Stephen Colbert’s tribute to his mother from the other day. I challenge anyone to watch it without crying.
Molly, I just watched that show on my pc. It was absolutely awesome.
@LLMPapa.
(snort) LMAO!
I’m hoping he goes off during his trial. That’s his pattern when things don’t go his way he loses it. That why he killed Trayvon because he wouldn’t cooperate with him.
if you think about it, it’s karma
he’s attacked and bullied women his whole life
now they control his fate LOL
“God’s plan”
GTFOHWTBS!!! ➡
I’m done. One question – that’s more than I can take. My blood pressure is going up!
well thank goodness we’ll never have to see/hear him speaking on camera EVER after today…cause GZ being acquitted not gonna happen!
Do you think he’ll stick to it? I hope you’re right. Unfortunately, I think he’ll be right back on twitter as soon as he sees the case going against his idiot brother, and starts drinking. For sure he’ll be popping up afterwards telling everyone what a miscarriage of justice it was, how his poor, innocent brother got railroaded to appease the mobs. He is just as much in love with the spotlight as O’Mara, and equally unable to resist. I can’t STAND him.
Deva Premal – Mantra for Precarious Times
I can use this.
It’s like pouring cool water over your head on a hot day. Getting my head back in the right place after that tense day.
Six women….five are mothers.
I’m thinking the State just added five experts for the source of the screams.
X2.
x 3.
I was thinking the same LLMPapa.
Agree!
I agree.
Yes – and I know that there was a time when I listened and I swear I heard “mamma” in those screams somewhere and as a mom, that tore me apart. I might have been hearing things because I only heard it clearly a few times but don’t now so IDK, but if any of them even think they hear that…
Absolutely. I did as well, Rachael, and it had the same effect. I don’t think there is a concept more agonizing than hearing a child in terror scream for their mommy, and you know that help never gets there. There is simply no way not to relate that to your own child, and that thought is excruciating even in the abstract.
I believe that any mother (except perhaps a psychopath-sadist) will get chills listening to that screech. The first time I heard it I got paralyzed and sat by the computer in a daze for about 15 minutes and then I couldn’t go back and listen again for days and days. I felt guilty about it because I wanted to analyze the tape in my mind but I couldn’t re-expose myself! I watched stupid TV until about 3 a.m. to keep from going to sleep because I was afraid of nightmares.
yessir!
All the state needs to do is point out who had the gun and who didn’t and that will tell you who was screaming.
Yep. Screaming – gunshot – silence.
X4
Joonyah on Dr. Drew.
I rather have a colonic with boiling water than listen to that. Sorry. I can’t listen to him. He hurts his brother every time he speaks.
Funny……I want to hurt either one when they open their mouths……
You have the right idea. Didn’t take me but a minute to decide that was quite enough.
Hey MMP, good to see you!!!
🙂
Junior makes it impossible for anyone to ask him questions that he answers sincerely, because he is obsessed with race. If he has a lover who wants to know why he doesn’t want to be intimidate, Junior will blame it on Blacks.
Joonyah would have no problems answering Dr. Drew’s questions. He tailors his answers/demeanor accordingly for each interviewer and audience.
Remember how determined, affable and oily-charming he was with Bill Maher? Who also couldnt’ve made it any easier for him, and presented NO challenges. He’s much meaner, tells more lies, and makes countless racist remarks when on with the lilkes of Randy Hahn and others.
Dr Drew will do NO better than the failed interviews with Bill Maher or Piers Morgan. He’s interested in ratings, not getting at the truth. Ever noticed that the good Doc has never even hinted that fogen, joonyah and the rest of the Killerman Klan are likely narcissistic scociopaths …… at best. Even Dr. Phil who is not an MD like Dr. Drew has said as much. And he did do a fairly good job of exposing Mr. & Mrs. Osterturd. They seemed to go silent after that interview.
I want to see joonyah go up against Lawrence O’Donnell. Larry from Bean Town would rip em a new one. He’s always locked and loaded.
“I would be very worried, if I were George Zimmerman, because I believe those mothers are not going to believe him.”
Not to say you are wrong, but there were many parents on the Casey Anthony jury. They felt it was perfectly logical to put duct tape on a child’s face, put it in a trashbag, then throw it into a swamp like trash.
dennis – i don’t think you can really compare the two cases. in zimmerman’s, we have his confession of shooting. the only element the state has to prove is a depraved mind because the other two (he shot someone, his act would knowingly cause death or harm) are already established.
the state did not have any elements of murder, much less m1 established in anothony’s case, regardless of what many of us believe to be true.
facts are on the side of the state in this case.
I disagree. They had enough evidence to prove premeditation. Not only that, but none of the jurors ever said a single thing regarding there not being enough evidence for a 1st degree murder charge. They believe the child died in an accident, which makes them stupid because anyone with a functioning braincell knows that child did not die in the family pool.
In addition…. I don’t believe that jury EVER implied or felt it was perfectly logical to put duct tape on a child’s face, put it in a trashbag, then throw it into a swamp like trash.
Female buddhas have a very important role in Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama recently said that his successor may be female.
http://thefemalebuddha.wordpress.com/
In Tibetan Buddhism, to be born male is considered superior – generally there is less suffering for males – no childbearing, etc.. But it is thought that when women apply themselves to spiritual practice that they are unstoppable.
That Fogen now a female judge AND jury is significant. God’s plan indeed.
Wow! you and I seem to have a lot in common.
Cool!
Interesting, thanks Tstas,
Thanks ay2z – how cool – giant prayer wheels! I love all things Tibetan. Such a fascinating culture.
From the picture I saw it looks like Fogen is happy with his jury selection. With a jury of all women and no African-Americans, I’m sure he thinks the defense can confuse them easily.
I was reading around a couple of hours ago. A lot of Fogen’s supporters think the female jury is good because they’ll be scared of Trayvon and think in terms of self-defense. : / Unlikely, I think. They’ll see him as he was – a high school kid, barely 17. They especially like the juror from Chicago with all the kids and see her as especially on Fogen’s side, not sure why. I recall her saying she left Chicago for a quieter life for her kids. I doubt she wants NW chasing kids around with guns.
She’s also a CNA and she will know that the defendant’s wounds were minor and his nose was not broken.
Two Sides~ I agree. Only insecure gz could see Trayvon as a threat. Plus, gz has always played women for fools. I think he’s in for a BIG shock.
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The real “killer” will be when they hear that the wannabee cop, who was fired as a bouncer for being too violent, took self defense classes at a martial arts gym. How he could handle adults in bar rooms, yet be unable to handle an untrained 17 year old is quite astonishing, if you get my drift.
On HP, GZ supporters are already talking appeal because of the all women jury.
@Two sides to a story
Exactly. Some men stereotype women by saying that they lack common sense. It’s like Fogen is thinking O’Mara will show the women the pictures of his swollen nose and blood on his head and they will instantly believe he was almost beaten to death.
I do not know but I doubt women would be afraid of Trayvon, considering he looks like a nice teenage kid in his photos and if Omara wants to open that door, they will hear about Creepy Fogen and his molestation of his cousin and attempted rape, his attack on police, his attack on his ex, and his attack on that lady at his bouncer job, his assault on the 8 year old whom he accused of stealing a bike, and so forth
I think they would be more apt to be afraid of Fogen
@jun
Correct. Fogen definitely does not want his history of violence, woman beating, and molestation to come out.
If I heard that crap as a juror, I would convict him on pure character.
Dennis~ the molestation thing was just an accusation. It hasn’t been recorded nor investigated. Probably the statute of limitations has run out. But she could still be a good character witness to his and his family’s racism.
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@Sophia33 – There is nothing to appeal about an all female jury. The defense agreed to it. They had their chance.
@cielo…. actually the molestation claim made by the cousin and another girl was addressed by bernie at a hearing…. he sated that her claims had been “Independently verified”
tinytruthseeker~ REALLY!? I TOTALLY MISSED THAT! I thought she brought it up in conjunction with knowing the family for years and was attesting to the racism. I had NOT heard that her claims of molestation were investigated. No charges? Statute of limitations thing? How was it confirmed? I want to know. Off to Google I go!
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I can’t remember ALL the details but I DO remember that before the cousins claims were released there was a fierce debate before the judge and part of Bernies argument was that her claims had been independently verified…. he stipulated that the claims wouldn’t be entered unless the defense opened the door to the killers character… which is why I have been saying that what O’Liar did just before jury selection process began was tit for tat…. you said stuff about our widdle boy so we are going to say stuff about Trayvon… mattered little to the defense that in the case of their client there was NO authentication but for the cousin there WAS verification….
tinytrutheseeker~ Not that it will be used in this case, but do you remember which hearing? I have not found anything about the charges being filed, investigated nor verified. What was verified was that Witness 9 was indeed a family member who knows the Zimmerman family. No actual abuse investigation (like Sandusky’s) has ever been done.
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I think it was discussed somewhere that the statute of limitations had run out for any charges to be filed….. but that in addition to it being verified that she was indeed his cousin …. it had been independently verified that her claims were true…. perhaps they did make contact with the “other” girl but she was unwilling to make a formal statement?
tinytruthseeker~ WOW! Something to make me go hmmmm…. So we’ll see. It would be devastating character rebuttal information, to say the least. THANK YOU.
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Trial, trial, trial.
Evidence, trial.
Evidence, Evidence.
Trial.
Kind of operatic, is it not?
Yeah, if you add some burps and other indigestion sounds.
I think we may hear some, judging by West’s t-backy habit.
That’s why I can’t see a defense. Of course, part of that is because, I don’t believe that any strategy that leaves one hopelessly boxed in is a good line to pursue. It seems that every trail the defense might take, leads them to another poisoned well. Eventually they will have no choice but to choose one poisoned well to drink from.
The only question is how long will they be able to delay the process? Perhaps that’s what West is for? To introduce some level of insanity, sufficient to drag the case on, if he gets caught and “slapped down” for doing so, hey, he’s just a sacrificial lamb, so no biggie!
Our all-female jury is both a surprise and not a surprise. Fogen invoked God’s Plan – and the energies at this time are all about bringing balance to a world out of kilter. It is fitting that Fogen’s fate will be decided by females. Women will play a prominent role in all aspects of life in coming years.
Year 2013: The Rebirth of Venus and the Return of theDivine Feminine http://www.academia.edu/2343872/Year_2013_The_Rebirth_of_Venus_and_the_Return_of_the_Divine_Feminine
I’m really into astrology. Are you the one who did GZ’s Saturn return. I remember my Saturn return. It was rough, but nothing like GZ’s.
Because I knew about my Saturn return before it happened, I was conscious of what was going on and tried to balance it with gems, meditation and prayer.
That would be Xena, I think or is it Faux? I know a little about astrology, but she knows a lot more. And our Professor is an astrologer too!
Yes, it’s always nice to be prepared for your Saturn returns, I’ve weathered two! The second is easier than the first. Of course, not everyone lives long enough for their third.
And there ain’t nobody worrying about their Pluto return.
@Two sides. It was Nef05 that did GZ’s Saturn return.
Oh, oh – that was ay2z – see below! Yay!
@Sophia
I so admire you all. All I know is my astrology sign, and I think what’s called my rising sign.
Sure wish you all could be in that courtroom getting an “up close and personal” reading. 🙂
I have about 18 years before that next one. And I need a break from that first one. It was a doozy.
Memories, huh? For me it’s sort of like childbirth – it’s hellacious painful and then hard to remember when it’s all over!
Okay the jury was pretty close to what I wanted
I wanted women on the jury, but multicultural with black, latino, and white
I wanted this to see Robbie The Racist’s head explode at the people he hates are judging Fogen’s fate
If you look at their family history
1) They denied their latino heritage until a charge of murder arose, as if being latino was embarrassing to them
2) They do not like mexicans
3) They obviously do not like black people
4) Fogen is racist against West Asian people
5) Fogen has attacked women all his life
I wanted mothers on the jury and 5 of the 6 are mothers.
I’m delighted that there are no men on the jury.
It’s historical too, because you do not see all females very often, if at all
Maybe there was some reverse psychology there, maybe BLDR got what he wanted.
No men! Wow!
I’m rather happy to see that all of them seemed to be aware that what they may have heard up until now, is neither the truth nor accurate, and that the media has a bias.
They’ll be reminded that they are not to use, in deliberations, what they may have learned outside the courtroom. I’m fairly confident that some of them will be quick to remind the others, if something Omar released before trial, either in his press conferences or his motions, cannot be used, if not also presented at trial.
Reasonable people, who may remember something that made Trayvon seem like a thug, or someone going in the wrong direction, will be expecting to hear the defense either repeat or otherwise substantiate those claims during the trial, since that was a large part of the defenses supportive claims. So, should they not be presented at trial, it will be one huge black mark against the defense.
For example: “Hey, I thought the defense said this or that early on, how come they’re not saying it during the trial?” Others will explain that it didn’t come in, because it was probably untrue, or could not be proven true.
The effect is negative feed back. The defense loses credibility! Not that they will have much left at all.
In addition to being women, two are mid westerners. One from my home of 20 years, Chicago. So perhaps that will help too.
Midwestern women are practical and sensible.
This is infinitely better, since gz’s pet theory is that it’s blacks and non-whites who are against him and not giving him the benefit of doubt he deserves. Now he’s got his white jury, so, when they put him away, he can’t console himself with belief that racial prejudice did him in. Also, white women are the very people he was pretending to defend from harm, so for them to say “guilty as charged”, sends a strong message to foggen: “We don’t need you to do that either!”
I can’t wait to hear what some of the dismissed jurors have to say. I bet its going to be interesting.
I doubt they will say much.
Why Professor?
Not even one?
Nope, not even one.
They aren’t going to be impressed with his injuries or believe that he had any reason to kill Trayvon.
I think men are more likely to believe that bullshit.
Oh no, Professor, I apologize. I was talking about the pj’s that did not make the cut, who won’t be serving on the jury.
I was hoping the media would seek interviews with them for the “Inside Story” about what they experienced, what it was like, etc.
I realized that. I’m saying the people who were dismissed probably won’t have much to say.
While I know you’re referring to PJs, I think this applies to the jurors, as well. At least the moms among them. We’ve kissed and bandaged too many booboos, to be fooled into thinking those kitten scratches were “life threatening” or that fogen’s head was bashed and he was punched 20+ times.
I was referring to the 6 women on the jury.
@Trained Observer
Thank you so much for this update.
Like Marcia Clark, many are saying an all woman jury is highly unusual. I’ve read that this entire jury selection was highly unusual, especially all the concerns with anonymity.
I read that according to the Sunshine Law in the State of Florida, the media did not have to “back off” or agree to give pj’s anonymity, but simply made a compromise. And that the only juries that remain anonymous are Grand Juries. But I don’t know if that’s necessarily true.
YOU SAID: “……the two who initially got dismissed, thanks to the State, but ended up back on……”
Do you remember which to Geragos was referring to?
Hats off to Anderson for get that lie straightened out about Trayvon going out late at night to buy some candy.
Yes, hats off to Anderson, but even if it was late at night when Trayvon went out…that is still no excuse for someone to target him and then murder him.
I am really disgusted with those jurors who would say such a thing.
@concernedczen
You are so right. I’ve said it time, and time again, I don’t care what time he went to the store, he had a right to do so, and NOBODY had a right to murder him.
Heck, the children and grandchildren of those ignorant jurors who made such a hateful comment like that, deserve the same rights as Trayvon.
Are they actually saying that their children and grandchildren deserve to be murdered just because they returned home late one light coming back from the store buying candy? I think not.
Just point them here for the timeline http://tinyurl.com/bn5e4xe They’ll get an eyefull and you’ll get some sleep. 😀
Lonnie~ there’s a new thread up “Don West is Losing It.” Just FYI and hadn’t seen it.
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Thanks I got it, but I’m getting worn out trying to catch up. Lots of vids I want to collect for the pile later on.
I agree with you.
You know, this “deserved to be killed” stuff is just not going to play during the trial. There are actually people who “deserve to be killed” but the law does not allow it. PERIOD. And the press would not have allowed the “deserved to be killed” stuff to take one minute of their time or one inch of their print if Trayvon Benjamin Martin had not been Black.
Sleuth — I believe he was referring to B29 (just down from Chicago with all the kids), and I’m not sure who the second restored PJ, now J is. (Can’t take notes when driving.)
You are correct in that jury identities are in the sunshine, but generally media backs off and only identifies by name after a trial is over and a former jurer agrees to speak. During trial, media says things like “retired firefighter” and “middle school teacher.”
Of course, in the DUI case for the polo mogel in Palm Beach where the jurer neglected to mention his ex-wife had been in ivolved in DUI , that jurer is now in headlines facing his own legal difficulties.Sometimes when it’s over, it’s not really over. Another great reason to play it candid with voir dire..
Ok, B-29, think she has 8 children. I think the other might be B-76, the one who wondered why Trayvon was out so late at night going to the store to buy candy. I think she is also the one who mis-identified a B/F seated in the gallery as Sybrina Fulton.
Oh yeah, I followed the John Goodman case. IIRC, one of the jurors started writing a book during the trial, a stealth juror indeed.
I also remember Goodman trying to legally adopt his girlfriend as his child, and him trying to cut his ankle monitor off. What a trial.
You’re right though, “Sometimes when its over, it ain’t really over.
Follow……
Can an Afro / Peruvian Swallow carry a Coconut ?
??
Do you put the lime in the coconut?
Not the song….from a movie…..paraphrased… :)-
Ya know…….I think I’m gonna have a “opening statements” party Monday…..even if it’s just the mate, dog & myself 🙂
HOODIES UP
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
MMP~ Throw back a slug o’Black Crow for me!
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Wooo oo Woo!
Another Harry Nilssen classic, and supposetly it’s not all about drugs, it’s origin, a song that was sung to a small boy with a tummy ache, to make him feel better.
mountainmanpat: We ain’t seen you since The Flood! Great to see your fonts.
Yeah, where ya been? MIssed ya.
TY….Hope U see ’em a while longer…..we’re covered with smoke…smell it too..same last night..from a fire 30 mi. north of us…
Any good words to ones beliefs would be appriciated….
Me?……I pray to Joe Pecsi Firefighters have his attitude…..
That’s too close for comfort MMP. Is there a smoke sunset? Any ash coming down where you are?
We heard it was just awful…people, animals, horses….just terrible.
So sorry to hear about that, man alive.
Rain? How long till containment?
Of course we will put you in our prayers, consider it done.
Normally I have sunsets (horizon rises to be correct….Sun’s not movin’)…..normally 20 miles or more from where I now sit…..Doubt if I have a half mile visibility….We have reverse 911…..And neighbors keep neighbors updated……
Had a bit of rain the past few days…..thing is…..annual rainfall here is 16 inches ….we got half of that last year 😦
The really sad part?…….most are arson caused….more ball less mother fuckers……
Arson is a particularly peculiar and egregious crime, that I looked into the PubMed literature for, when CO was in the news. There is most certainly a mental illness component to firestarting. I also have the impression that is is prone to repeat offending. I hope they figure out who it was.
MMP~ will do my friend. Stay safe and get ready to bug out; you, your mate, your dog and your stamps!
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Stamps & collectables are insured……….And yes I am willing to take the chances living here………we see the south end of the Hayman burn of ’02…..still looks like a moonscape….120,000 acres….
We’ll be OK….whatever happens…..we’ll get by and survive…..such is life…….One has a choice….to let life own them…..or they own their own lives…….
I haven’t heard that song in soo long. TY for bringing back some memories.
mmp—I also live in the mountains, but apparently far from your state. The threat of fire is always there and it’s the only thing that scares me, so I just keep supplies for the pets and us ready to go. The only things I care about are the lives of the animals and ours, so the rest is…just the rest. But would still hate to lose “things” that are meaningful all the same. Living in a peaceful, quiet place populated by wildlife and forest, rather than traffic and shopping centers, has it’s drawbacks, but it’s worth it. Not much in the way of helpful words, I know, but understand how you must feel. Hope your firefighters are Joe Pesci clones in disguise.
MMP~ It depends on where he grips it.
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Just heard Marcia Clark and Mark Geragos on CNN driving home.
I respect her a prosecutor and him as a defense attorney and they made interesting points, but I still wonder if we’re all on the same planet.
Geragos seems convinced the two who initially got dismissed, thanks to the State, but ended up back on will hold it against BDLR He calle this jury a “dream” for the defense, suggesting that women with security concerns will be pleased that Fogen was out there protecting his neighborhood. He actually also said the trial was “Mark O’Mara’s to lose.” Yuk, Mark. Guess he’s not seen West in action.
Clark was more optimistic for the State’s case with an all female jury although she called it highly unusual (what????,) She emphasized that five of six are mothers.
Anderson Cooper, interviewing them both, pointed out that one of those mothers had opined that Trayvon never should have been out so late at night. Anderson pointed out to viewer/listeners that it was around 7 p.m, and that hinted that maybe the juror would have second thoughts on that remark once evidence is presented..
ALL jurors will have second thoughts on their preconceived notions once the evidence is presented. Some may really resent having been misled by the things they heard.
I hope you’re right. I don’t believe, from the panicked way the defense has always acted, that they will come with anything to rebut what the State presents to prove GZ not guilty.
It is never a good thing that jurors have heard things that the defense cannot put into evidence. It leaves the juror waiting to hear their “favorite” piece of evidence, either presented or at least explained. That it simply disappears, never to be heard of again, has to tell them that it was untrue. Since, if it were true and exculpatory, the defense would be sure to shove it into their faces at every opportunity.
I don’t know if Bernie will be able to show the jury the motions, that delivered the misinformation to the media, but probably not, unless and until the defense tries to assert or imply that it might be true. Meaning that even Omar’s feeble efforts at “bell ringing” can backfire big time on him. The SP doesn’t have to worry about unringing any bells, when the can totally destroy the bell in full view of the jury.
That’s it right there Malisha.
Another thing I was thinking about a lot. The jurors had heard things because O’Mara was blabbing in front of cameras so much. So what? Some of the jurors had listened to the “scream” tape and could possibly imagine Fogen screamed. But not one juror, even among the ones eliminated, spoke about their impressions of the NEN tape if I recall correctly.
IMO the NEN tape, NOT the “scream” tape, is the crucial piece of evidence. I listened to it perhaps 100 times. The FIRST TIME I heard it (before I heard “f*cking punks [or whatever]), I said to myself, “Damn, he marked this kid and chased him down and killed him in cold blood!” THE FIRST TIME!
WHat convinced me most?
SEAN: Where should the cops meet you?
FOGEN: Tell them to call me when they get into the neighborhood so I can tell them where I’m at.
Jurors didn’t study that tape. THAT TAPE is the whole game.
Not sure how the Jurors will find out the State wanted them gone. They are not suppose to be watching anything or listening to or reading anything about the case. Keep the faith. We do not know all the evidence. Soon we will and soon so will this jury. I truly believe they will do the right thing once they have all the evidence. jmo
I am almost 100% positive that they will find out. I am sure their families will tell them if they don’t themselves watch the taped hearing.
It’s a shame what the judge did today. She really did not give the state a fair shot.
How in the world did she deny the states PC’s because of gender, when at that point, there were no more men in the 6 to dismiss. There were only women, so of course the prosecutor could only challenge women.
I do believe there’s a chance a family member could mention certain things, but I also believe once the jurors are presented with the evidence, they will make their decisions based on that and the law.
We’ve heard a lot of stuff on the net over the last year, but the jury isn’t going to hear all that. In fact, they won’t even hear gz’s own self defense claim, unless and until he takes the stand. Otherwise it will just be “implied” by the fact that he’s facing trial, that he does not plead to be guilty of 2nd degree murder.
How jurors will come to believe, that a man, who claims that he was being savagely beaten and under a lethal attack for over a minute, can be heard on the 911 tape talking with an angry voice. While witnesses who are coming an going are also speaking with him, and then, to cap it all off, there’s no evidence that Trayvon’s hands ever touched his blood covered head (and arms if we’re to believe the EMT’s)
Worse yet, if gz tries to put on a defense, the Prosecution will provoke the jurors to consider where gz’s bloody wounds could have come from, since if Trayvon did not touch gz, these wounds had to have come from somewhere else. Suspicion will abound that he came to the hunt with these wounds and bleeding already prepared, which of course would suggest 1st degree murder.
It appears that only some sort of magical trance can pull gz out of this mess he’s created, by willingly killing a child who did him no harm. As I have said before, I will say again; gz appears to be toast!
Justice for Trayvon
Hoodies up!!!
|||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||
Geragos’s opinion is rubbish.
Apparently, he believes women tremble when they encounter their own shadows.
And, no. I do not think they will find out out that BDLR attempted to exclude them or that they will even care about that when it comes time to deliberate on a verdict.
Well Professah, maybe that DOES happen; we do not KNOW after all, since we women do not have to encounter ouwah own shadows since we have y’all big powahfull men to proteck us from seein’ them… [eyelash-bat eyelash-bat fan fan fan] … 🙄
Stop, ya givin’ me duh vapors!
“Geragos’s opinion is rubbish.”
He thinks like a high profile defense attorney who believes his own hype.
Remember when Geragos declared Scott Peterson “Stone Cold Innocent” of the murder of his wife Lacy Peterson and their unborn child ?
How’d that work out ?
In my opinion Geragos has been irrelevant ever since.
You know I saw someone post on HP that they thought the murder happened at 10 or 11 o’clock at night. Perhaps it was an honest mistake on her part. She don’t appear the only one to think this.
Many people thought it was late someone at HP even posted that it was 1 AM. I’m surprised that anyone said that, I have not seen that in awhile but I have not been over there in a day or 2 either. The jury will find out what time Trayvon left for the store and the time of the murder. Even if it had been 10 or 11 many kids in their late teen have curfews that begin as early as 8 or 9 on school days sometime even as late as 10 or 11. I told a couple of the nutty treehousers he wasn’t 10 years old he can be out after dark.
One of the PJ’s said that they knew about the killing and that it happened late at night.
A lot of people seem to think it was very late at night. Maybe they saw when GZ was brought into the police station and that subliminally stuck in their heads or something, but I’ve talked to people who thought it was 2 in the morning.
I would certainly hope no one would think there is anything wrong with a 17-year-old walking to the store at 7:00 pm. That would just be crazy.
Geragos can speak for himself, is he fucking crazy? Was he not aware that that juror said she was more afraid of the police officer who showed up, than the armed robber?
Protecting the neighborhood?? GMAFB. I”l tell you one thing, if it was my little close knit apartment complex, there is a chance that some asshat like GZ actually would end up dead, because many folks around here don’t bring Skittles to a gun battle, for real.
Crane Exactly! And had Trayvon been a real thug he would have had his own gun or he would have gotten Fogen’s gun from him and shoved it up his.. Never mind. You get the picture. Hopefully these mothers make it clear DO NOT CHASE OUR CHILDREN with guns.
Believe you me, I totally do get the picture. If that man thought Thug, he hasn’t seen thug, until he waves his piece around somebody who ain’t playin.
how late trayvonm was out should make no difference only his parents have a right to worry about that. and what teenager is in the house at 7 at night. unless they have been grounded.
IF Trayvon was out late, then what does that say about a grown man with a full-time job who needs to be at work on time Monday morning, going grocery shopping for the week so late on a Sunday evening?
Trayvon left home for the store around sunset and would have been home before gz could catch him, if not for those 3 guys at the 711. That 5 minute delay on his walk home, allowed the rain to catch him and force him into the mail kiosk just 3 minutes from home. Foggen doesn’t show on the scene until 7:09. Master Revisable Timeline
@Lonnie Starr.
That’s when GZ calls NEN as he drives by the mail shed. I have the clubhouse video for the East Pool Hall that shows the car lights slowly driving by, just after a shadow passes. Whonoze and the guys who worked on the clubhouse videos lean towards the shadow being a car light, but I slowed the video down and there are two movements, like legs walking.
Problem is that of all the clubhouse videos I have found without commentary, they do not include timestamps or the correct timestamps, (have the 20 minute error). IOWs, I can pinpoint the passing shadow and the following car lights, but cannot support the time it occurred with the video that I have.
I think DD says that Trayvon told her the rain was picking up so he had to run for the mail kiosk. Most analyst have him there by 6:54. If that’s of any help. gz’s car or truck would have had to be there in that time frame 2 minutes or so earlier, to get in position for the NEN call.
A teenager out LATE at night only merits a concerned citizen saying, “Are you lost or in need of help? I’m with the Neighborhood Watch program; perhaps I can help you get home. Do you have a cell phone to call your parents with?”
exactly
bingo
I’m quite happy with the all female jury…..J4TM!!!
Has the jury been sequestered already?
No … they have potential exposure to O’Mara and others until opening arguments Monday.
Was MOM successful in preventing the prosecution from detailing GZ criminal record to the jury?
The professor will correct me if I’m worng but I don’t believe you can bring up past crimes because it could prejudice the jury, however there may be some circumstances where that door is opened which O’Mara or West could do if they aren’t careful.
Can’t do it unless a door opens.
The door will open if they try to say Trayvon was likely to have attacked Fogen because of Trayvon’s “history” or his “character.”
If he takes the stand then it comes in
@girlp
@malisha
you are both correct of course, but i will add that past criminal behavior can be brought up during sentencing. as florida has mandatory minimums, i am not sure this would be so important.
Then I hope they go for it because who would believe that a kid will attack because they were suspended from school.
Past convictions can be brought up but the killer has none.
The State did not attempt to do that because his prior bad acts are not admissible unless the defense opens the door.
I liked when Mantei stated if the defense were confident it was their client, then they themselves would have experts
I liked how happy GZ looked when he first heard that the voice could not be identified as his or TM’s. If you want ppl to believe it was you screaming for help and your liberty depended upon it, why would you look relieved that you can’t be identified as the source? Who does that? The killer, that’s who. If they were confident, they wouldn’t have thrown out all of that garbage they knew was not going to come into evidence the week before the jury selection. I’m sure it’s extremely difficult to defend a murderer.
I don’t recall seeing that, but if you are right, that is damning indeed! Thanks!
It’s like the talk of his “broken nose”. There is no proof that it is nor is there proof that there isn’t, so he is happy to have his side and supporters assume that it was.
Professor,
Question? Can O’Mara come back and appeal claiming it was a biased jury because they’re all women?
Good question. I wondered the same. Never heard of a jury of one gender.
I served on one with a jury of six females, as many regulars on this blog are no doubt sick of hearing me mention. On a second M1 jury I was one of 11 women with only one male.
Before 1920 I think they were probably ALL juries of all men.
I believe that within living memory juries were supposed to consist of “twelve good MEN and true”.
Not the professor, but MOM was on local news earlier talking about he objected to the State trying to get rid of the women and that he won. He made it sound like he wanted the women.
Well he did object to white women being excluded, so in essence he pretty much got the jury he wanted. I guess having that jury consultant paid off for them.
@type1juve – I hope it poofers in his face.
No, he accepted the jury without using all of his challenges.
Plus, his client stated in open court today, for the record, he accepted the jury.
Ahhh! Whoo Hoo!
Why do you think he did that? JN was pushing pretty hard and fast to get the jury selected.
I don’t see how since he helped pick the jury.
And what hasn’t he tried? I wouldn’t put it past him, he’d cry foul if a mosqiuto bit him in the courtroom and blame Judge Nelson for not having mosquito netting.
>^..^< All female is good!
agreed! 5 of them being mommies is good too. i have no problem with this. the other thing that occurred to me, is the opportunity this gives the state to frame their argument.
who has more to fear/lose from a stranger following/chasing you in the dark? women and children, of course. i may be the exception here due to size and just being mean as hell when necessary. the average woman would be able to relate to Trayvon as a teen, able to relate to him as a victim in the night, and knows the difference between life threatening injuries and boo-boos.
When the press said they had pictures of “lacerations” and it supported Fogen I was concerned until I saw the pictures I laughed as a mom of a son who had a true head injury, I knew they were minor scratches. Zimmerman claims he was punched, that Trayvon was “wailing” on his head, how many punches 12, 20, 30; the fact that his face was not swollen and bruised and those little scratches told me he was lying. The story of Trayvon banging his head on anything at all is a lie where is the swelling, why didn’t he have a concussion, why wasn’t he in the hospital, how could Trayvon see the gun if he was sitting on his stomach knees covering his waistline Trayvon concentrating on beating him, how did he “shimmy” with 158lbs sitting on him and who would just lay there and let it happen?
faux mccoy~ yes! I see that being the most probable. GZ is stupid to underestimate women. But he’s done it all his life.
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@girlp – don’t forget about all that face smothering…face should’ve been smeared with blood, yet he has to ask Jon w13 if he had blood on his face. If 45% of his face had been covered in blood, according to an EMS statement…why didn’t Jon capture that photo? why did cell phone pic from the officer only show bleeding from tip of his nose. Can’t imagine them cleaning him up before forensics team was on scene.
I hate to be unpopular devil’s advocate, but is this an appeals play for defense. In other words, “jury of his pears”? I don’t know. That is a question for the legal pros, of which I am not.
nocamo~ no, gz looks more like a watermelon. Certainly NOT a jury of his pears.
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Ha!
@nocamo who says
it is absolutely not grounds for appeal. first of all, the defendant and his attorneys agreed to this jury in open court. they state this is the jury they want. second, a ‘jury of peers’ has nothing to do with race, gender, religion — it merely refers to a group of common people randomly chosen from the defendant’s own community (except in rare occasions where a trial is held in a different jurisdiction due to pre-trial publicity). the fact that the jury is all women is NOT grounds for any type of appeal.
Got it faux. Thanks!
At the risk of sounding un-PC…I dig females too.
Ugh, peers.
\(-_-)/
Any bets about whether the defendant is going to attempt to flee justice after hearing the state’s opening address to the jury?
If the state has a bombshell of evidence hitherto unseen, and they well might in the form if whatever was found on GZs cell phone, it might be that George decides its time to make a run for it, GPS or not, passport or not… He could try a speed boat to Haiti or something.
I think GZ is too stupid to flee. My reasoning is that he and MOM are so narrow minded and full of themselves that they think to jury will either be hung for find him not guilty.
I’m scared to watch the trial because I strongly fear JN is going to let MOM and Co. get away with a lot.
It pisses me off how the media has portrayed this kid. Someone need to challenge these so called reports and start suing them personally for slander and libel for the shit they say and write knowing it is not true. I feel if they are sued personally and have to pay out of their own pocket they would be less inclined to do so in the future.
I am tired of reports hiding behind the constitution ….. the bad one give the few good ones a really bad name. Poor Sabrina I know she wanted to whoop some of those PJs azzes. She need to cold cock that Stutzman woman.
@willis, hmmm not willing to take that bet. I do feel strongly the state has an overwhelming amount of evidence to back the M2 charge. So much so, GZ waived right to speedy trial, and pre-trial self defense hearing. I would hope the defense team has really made GZ aware of the seriousness of these charges and evidence against him. Day of reckoning his here, motions for continuances denied, smoke and mirror stall tactics didn’t work.
It’s time to put up or shut up!
How about a swim from South FL to Cuba?
The Cubans would probably tell him to swim back.
“Thar he blows……”
@mmpat
great to see you back in the saddle, buddy. hope you and yours are safe and well.
Yorazigo~ How about shark bait in the water? With LOTS of fat? 🙂
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Was wondering when you’d be back, MMPat!
Just had a thought – wonder what Serino & co thought of GZ ‘ band aids that day.
They probably thought that those bandaids represented gz admitting that his scratches should have been BIGGER to fit gz’s
tale of being punched and slammed multiple times!
That little clip of Fogen wibble-wobbling his widdow ewbows as he stands in his white polo shirt in the grass “showing” Serino the deathly struggle — the way he holds his babyish hands irritates me powerfully! That and his tiger-paw swipes “I think I was trying to push him off me” are the two body-language things I find both MOST revealing about him and MOST revolting about him. He stands there looking like a lying four-year-old explaining how the cat he tortured/killed was clawing him to death or how the puppy he drowned was biting his throat to destroy him. Lie lie wiggle woggle lie lie wave lie push lie wowie lie lie. “Yeah, that’s how I was being killed and I had to save my life. Yeah.”
@Malisha – That little clip of Fogen wibble-wobbling his widdow ewbows as he stands in his white polo shirt in the grass “showing” Serino the deathly struggle Don’t forget the way he crossed his eyes like a cartoon character to demonstrate his brains were being scrambled. FINALLY, Trial Time. Put this monster to bed with his real peers.
I anyone here needs to answer what time did Trayvon leave home for the store, the timeline is here. Save the link in your notepad case document, so you’ll have it handy when the need arrises.
Oh yeah, and we know that gz trained at a fight gym that specialized in grappling!
Just wait until the ladies hear THAT!
And, gz admitted to Serino that he used a wrist lock on Trayvon.
or maybe hightail it to Japan,grow out his hair, then go under cover as a Sumo Wrestler.
I have money on it that he runs………….
Never did good with the Ponies…..we’ll see……
I also bet every Hearns / Leonard fight wrong 😦
MMP- and my money is riding with odds! 😉 He won’t run.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Good morning MMP and cielo62
I’m with MMP on this one, thing is cielo62 MMP and I bet is handicapped.
Because Fogen will get stuck in that ‘LIL AZZ CHAIR!!!!!’
Damn shame trying to make him look like a Fidget.
Ic2fools- GZ is so cocksure that he thinks all he needs to do is charm these 6 women to his point of view. He won’t run.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Okay my friend, but that’ll be one tiny charm hanging from them twig n berries!
😳
ic2fools~ LOL!
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LOL can’t expect much more eh? They have him sitting there looking much SMALLER right, IC you got that painful image. Too funny!
MMP missed you! Happy to see you back!
Sorry mmp, I’m with cielo62 on this one. He couldn’t possibly make a run for it. However, ….. he could make a ‘waddle’ for it!
U mean U don’t think he’ll “skip” on his bail? 🙂
Go Miami Heat. They showed love for Trayvon …hoodies up
I love what the Miami Heat did for Trayvon. God bless them but Ima have to go with the Spurs. Ima a TexasGirl! 😉
🙂
SG2~ NEATO! Damn fine team, The Heat. Game 7 is for all of the marbles!
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Sorry
**tears*
Thank you for your kindness!
Congrats to the Miami Heat! I am so grateful for them stepping out to support Justice4Trayvon! I have nothing but love for the Miami Heat!
SG2~ I dont watch basket ball, but the highlights I’ve seen shows a WELL played series! Nail-biting to the end! Kudos to the Spurs for repping Texas so well!
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Big Up!
😉
I love LeBron, I remember when he finished high school & went pro, people were saying maybe he wasn’t mature enough, but he has always been mature!
Wade helped him as well
They thought he should spend four years working for room and board before turning pro. Screw that!
Once again, to the individual who was banned many many months ago, but who continues to come into the pending category filter saying, “Stop spamming me.”:
You do realize that it is not lost on us that you are changing your IP address every other day, right? So, how in the fuck do you think we could possibly be “spamming” you?
Please, and I am serious, get some professional help. I am honestly not kidding. You are coming off as a cyberstalker.
Thank you.
Wow! Maybe it is the sock on HP who has like a gazillion names. This week some of his names were based on the juror numbers.
As I have said before, HP is buck wild with it. Place has been hijacked by animals, or at least it was a while back. I have not been there in a while to read through a comment thread. I have often wondered why they tolerate so much identity theft and sock puppetry over there. HP can do better than this, for themselves- they have the resources.
There are about 3 or 4 who spam on HP they have many many socks, one was caught in a conversation with another that indicates they may be paid to spam and harrass Trayvons supporters. They create new ones almost everyday.
Amazing how some Z supporters are intimidated by the truth and resort to that.
It is really crazy. Our spam filter reads like a log book for a lunatic asylum. But where it gets weird is when, the same person comes in under different IP addresses, just to get back into the pendings. This looks more like a type of obsession.
@Crane-Station.
I don’t even look in my spam filter unless someone notifies me that their comment is in moderation and it’s not. Then I look in spam specifically to find their comment.
I should have clarified a bit, you’ll know b/c you also have WordPress. When he bans outright, the first comment never sees the light of day, but it gets moved to spam along w/ the IP. So, W-P reads it like spam and puts it away from that point on. We have a giant collection of awful foul-mouthed things penned by people who I assume, breathe the same air as the rest of humans, but wow.
Many are not satisfied and so, they return to post all sorts of things that an 8th grade teacher would punish the students for, if they ever said such things. Fred just lately has been saying ‘fuck it,’ and placing the whole spam queue in the trash, but up to now, he read through each one to make sure he was not missing a reader who simply posted too many links.
People sensed that he would see their various comments and they couldn’t help themselves, they had to come in, and talk dirty to him.
Oh yes, Fred has an unbelievable collection of this stuff. Some of it is lengthy, rambling ranting screeds that would make Tolstoy beg for mercy.
For a while there, we grew horns and thought up some troll torture: just leave the foul-mouthed first timers in the pending box for like, days. Weeks. Maybe even forever. No instant mercy banning, oh noooo. Troll in Hell.
We knew the Troll in Hell would keep checking back and checking back, like Maybe I got in! Maybe I got through! Just like a worm, in ashes. We actually thought this up.
As I said before, I can be so mean it just makes you want to pass out. (But in reality, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and my mother says I have been too sensitive, all my life)
@Crane-Station. I understand. Some comments that I have remain in moderation. That’s because LE told me to retain them as part of a criminal complaint. When Ms. Filth returns under a different IP address, that comment stays in moderation as another count to her criminal offenses but the second one is clicked as spam sending further comments into the black hole.
For other members of the Zimmerman wasp nest, I click spam and send their comment and all further ones into the black hole. They don’t deserve my time.
I’m not as nice as you and the professor. If they violate law, I have no problem reporting it as such. Ms. Filth has now gone through at least 4 ISPs and her recent use of Velia as a proxy still doesn’t keep her hidden.
We are not quite that nice. We do keep a file, for the law…
I think I know who you may be referring to, what a miserable piece of shit.
Anyone feel that the defense has spent some respectable coin to have some desperate interns “support” Zimmerman online on popular threads? I know I sound paranoid, but they have had a focus mainly on the media and not actual evidence. Also, can people really, truly believe Zimmerman in light of ALL the evidence? Besides racism and ignorance, I sensed a strong, ulterior motive.
Crane I love the way you put this, Troll torture Troll in Hell, Aha ha,heheheee!:
For a while there, we grew horns and thought up some troll torture: just leave the foul-mouthed first timers in the pending box for like, days. Weeks. Maybe even forever. No instant mercy banning, oh noooo. Troll in Hell.
I admire your tenacity Lady Crane, keeping it real. Good nature, caring with the fight of a Lioness. I couldn’t begin to imagine how you and Professor put up with continual spams, troll attacks and just outight hateful lying people.
Bless ya’ll. Blunt as you are you’ll always be Lady Crane to me.
I confronted it on twitter a couple of days ago. One good thing is that it avoids me. I believe it is a “professional” (tho minimum wage) troll employed by HuffPo. A pic of a pretty lady gets lots of follows, and it’s most likely a dude.
Prolly a dude who’s a wannabe transgender but too scared to declare.
I knew nothing at all about trolling until after this banning, and what was bizarre was, this individual had loads of researched information on Fred (and likely me, although I don’t technically write about the case, and I have put more about myself onto the internet than is in the public domain)…and we had zero on the person. Google page after google page (I am talking 15, 16 pages) of dummy sites, dead ends, and the like. It was as if the person did not exist, and it took a lot of tech savvy to do this, a high level of sophistication. Right on the pretty lady pic, although if memory serves, that changed also (but not to a man).
There was one masquerading last week on HP as “AngryBlackMan”. His icon was that of what appeared to be an “angry black man”. It was nuts. Now the one who changes his name to the juror i.d. numbers is really nuts. He can’t stand me and stalks me on that board.
The Barack Obama Board of IMBD isn’t all that great either. I took a break from there.
Stuff like that really is off the chain, and I can’t really handle reading it, most days. The vast majority of days, in fact.
Not everyone objects to SPAM.
ie:
But can an Afro / Peruvian Sparrow carry a Coconut?
ay2z and MMP~ LOVE IT! Monty Python LIVES!
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Perfect, thanks.
MMP, figuratively or literally? Sparrow Hawk? Dried coconut, no milk? Husk included or not? Baking package of fancy flaked or plain shred?
ay2z~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail. A cult classic.
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Will SOMEONE answer the question…..Can an Afro / Peruvian Sparrow carry a Coconut?
MMP- hmm… Don’t know. BUT I know that an Afro-Peruvian pig doesn’t even have 2 coconuts!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
!!!!!!!!!!!!! mountainmanpat !!!!!!!!!!!!! You’re back! Yeah! We’ve missed you! And VERY worried! Hope you haven’t been affected by the wildfires in CO. The lack of your wry wit has left a noticeable void. Hope you’ve been able to keep up.
Hoodies up. 😀
@Crane
I’ll bet it’s the same person who sent us emails saying “Stop with the racist posts”. What a psycho!
Oh, for real? Yes, that’s what it looks like and yes…
The blood in the shower scene was chocolate syrup…….B&W….No Technogore
Thanks Crane, that explains the individual who responed when I was talking physics (force, momentum, vector analysis, etc) that I should go back and repeat Physics 501 and 502. The 501 and 502 courses are basically graduate courses. What I was talking about is taught in high school physics and physics 101 and 102. Thought the individual did not understand the concepts and had to say something. So, as a result, I just ignored this individual.
I know that the Professor has been right the majority of the time and I hope that this continues. I will be missing most of the trial, if not all and while I am hopeful in the Professor’s and other’s comment, I find that the local news nor HLN are as optimistic and calling the jury a win for the defense.
Me too especially since most of the selected jurors are the ones Trained Observer selected to be weeded out if possible. I’m also not so confident about a woman with 7 children being kept from her children for 2 weeks. The first alternate might be helpful though. Do the alternates have any say at the end if none of the original 6 cause out?
No, they are dismissed after closing argument and before deliberations start.
Thank you for the response about what happens to the alternates.
More like three to four weeks than two if you actor in deliberation time. I still have doubts on whether the woman with the slew of kids can go the distance.
Alternates are dismissed when deliberations begin.
TO~ Are you kidding? Probably only 2, with the defense NOT having ANYTHING to present. Deliberations will take 2 days MAX.
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I don’t know, maybe it’s just me. But I don’t see where the defense has much of a story to tell, or any witnesses who can help tell it. So, I don’t see Omar as being able to put up much of a challenge to the states opening statement. In fact, Omar’s opening statement has to be severely curtailed. Since he must stay away from things he cannot possibly prove, and things that will be proven against him, like the bloody wounds and such, which, in light of the hard evidence, become a mystery as to how they were obtained, in themselves.
The state will “romp” through the first day or so, putting up the evidence that supports their theory of guilt. All the defense can do is “yap at their heels” like some ineffective toy poodle attack dog.
Attempting and even succeeding in controverting witnesses, only works if you have something to create a believable alternative story. Omar hasn’t got that, his effectiveness ends at simply attempting to discredit witnesses, without being able to offer any alternatives at all, because there are already too many alternatives offered in evidence, by the defendant himself!
I’d say a day and a half, perhaps two days, unless West can manage to drag things out for perhaps another day while he stumbles along. Of course West is a real danger to the defense, he can not be allowed free reign because, he could convict gz all by himself without the prosecution even having to say a word. Worse yet, West has a way of enraging people. A skill or talent that may play well in domestic law courts, but is not a good thing to bring to a criminal trial.
Unless Omar is hoping that perhaps the jury can be provoked to lunge for West seeking to thrash him, since that would be good for a mistrial for sure. To prevent that, I would suggest that judge Nelson order that West work in a protective cage! 😆
cielo62 — Hope you are right and I am wrong. But with the way MOM and West have strung stuff out thus far, why would they shift strategy? Fogen’s days of comparative freedom are numbered. The’ll want to give him as much time as possible outside the walls.
oops typo above, aren’t as optimistic….
Even Crump, when interviewed, would only say that the family does not have any say in the process and they put their faith into the hands of the State.
Isimon, I wondered about the four alternates too. Wondering if they will be too sequestrated. Strictly they should be. They also should follow the trial. No one can demand them to watch everyhing on video, in case they have to support one of the six ladies.
Interesting National News observations,
CBS reported that the jury was made up of all women, 5 whites, and 1 non-white (did not mention hispanic)
ABC reported the jury was made up of an all w/f jury.
I am wiped out. It is tiring watching a grown man throw a tantrum. I also have a lot of faith in the Jury. Men imo would be willing to accept the self defense, Mother’s not so much. His little boo-boos are no worse than falling down. Not that life threatening death fight. I think we expect to see real injuries especially if you are going to fire a gun and claim “feared for my pathetic life.”
I am super excited for opening arguments from the State. Not so much from the defense. Terrified of what lies the defense will spew. Did not realize until the Anthony trial that blatant lies were acceptable from the Lawyers. We are days away from Trayvon getting Justice. His Mother and Father have waited long enough.
But oh, you should have seen him giving a press conference after the Frye hearing…………just too full of himself.
I only viewed him for a short while and could not take it, I will pass on the press conference…poor jurors I feel for them.
In the Casey Anthony case majority of people (yes, Floridians! haha) were outraged and turned off by Baez’ false statements and the shocking verdict. I would like to think the mothers on this jury would have felt the same and will not tolerate any such attempts in this case by GZ defense team when they see and hear evidence.
Yorazigo, It’s very good to hear your point of view. The Anthony case caused a real crisis of faith in the jury system of Florida. We’ve all asked ourselves endlessly: how could the jury have found her not guilty? How could they have believed the outrageous accusations that Baez concocted at the last second, like pulling a rabbit out of a hat? I’d like to believe that the mothers (5) of them on this jury will have more courage when it comes to a child killer this time.
A friend of mine PROVED that a lawyer in LA directly and intentionally lied to the judge about what HE KNEW personally. When she proved it, the judge said, “We accept a certain amount of lying as advocacy.” Judge Marc Juhas, Los Angeles Superior Court. Can you imagine? “WE” accept it.
Yeah, that’s what’s wrong. The judges, the courts, accept it. Otherwise we wouldn’t HAVE it.
Let me add…all last week she was Black…now that she is on the jury she is Hispanic. How does her demographic change so fast (media criticism).
Well her friends all think that he is guilty. I wonder how what influence that will have on her?
Imagine her ability to ID’d the voice. She has teenaged sons!
From what local station reported, it was hard to determine her background by looking at her. They thought she was mixed race of either AA or Hispanic. They are now saying she might be from the Dominican Republic.
I do think she is from the Dominican but didn’t want to say that with the little information I have. She could be Puerto Rican as well but there is really too little information to decipher. Initially they said a black woman until they heard her accent.
In Central America there is not so much division of Black and white.
I’ve often heard the opposite is true.
Malisha~ The division is more between rich and poor.
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The Latina is Afro-descended.
So was George Zimmerman 😉
Yeah, Afro-Peruvian. Ha ha ha!
Haha…so he says…so he says. LOL. Now his records say something completely different. Latinos are not supporting thugboat, in general. We can’t judge a book by it’s cover and while some of these jurors did say some troubling things:
1) all of the potential jurors did IMO
2) They have only heard one side of the story
So I’m remaining confident.
yes…something that has become more noticeable with the 100+ weight gain. His true ethnicity is undeniable…fact is that prior to this incident he was identifying as white…barely any hint of an accent on the NEN call. Look at who he associated with, MO and FT, not seen with anyone hispanic, afro-peruvian, etc. Do you honestly believe they’d befriend him if he looked the way he does today?!
LMAO
I do not know the term but Fogen is one of those Latinos who hates their own heritage hence him disregarding it for all these years until this murder
Good.
Thank you for being ready every morning for all of us. I do not know where I would go for such great back and forth if not here. The intelligence here is second to none. With that said I think this weekend you all need to dumb it down a bit. Just in case the Defense is reading here. No more pointing out the obvious to them, k? 😉
@Professor. Thanks so much for the run-down and recap of the Frye hearing. There has been a lot of info to absorb and maintain since June 10. Knowing we can depend on you to keep us informed is precious.
Uno? Heck naaaw!
Thank y’all for saving me a seat in court this morning. What a day!
@Professor
Thank you so much. Nice review of today’s hearings.
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