Welcome to Day 8 Liveblogging Jury Selection in Zimmerman Trial

Wednesday, June 19, 2013

Good morning:

Trained Observer posted the following comment yesterday at 6:28 pm. I have decided to use it as a scorecard for the next round of voir dire.

I recommend we use it as a starting point for our discussions during the day about the various prospective jurors. Feel free to agree or disagree with her recommendations. By actively involving yourselves in the process of selecting and exercising challenges while witnessing the lawyers doing the same thing, you will be participating in a unique learning experience.

I do not believe this has ever been done before, so celebrate and learn.

The selection process is described below the scorecard.

My recommendations for next round, hoping hardship rids line-up of some “iffy” candidates, and strikes can be saved for a final shaping after defense squanders its share. (Admittedly, there’s so very much we don’t know about these PJs.)

B-12: Middle-aged white female; works late shift. Likes CSI, says she’d heard Fogen followed Trayvon. KEEP FOR NOW

B-29: Hispanic female nurse on an Alzheimer ward with 7 kidsl lived in windy Chicago at time of shooting. WEED OUT ON HARDSHIP

B-76: White middle-aged female who says Fogen had an “altercation with the young man. There was a struggle and the gun went off.” TRY TO WEED OUT

B-7: Middle-aged white male; NPR listener. Recalls when Florida implemented “stand your ground” and debate over whether needed.KEEP

B-35: Middle-aged black male owning a vending biz. Critical of Sharpton & Jackson; says this case not racial. KEEP

B-37: Middle-aged white female who works for a chiropractor and has a ton of of pets. Described protests in Sanford as “rioting.” STRIKE-OLA

B-51: Retired white female from Oviedo with a dog and 20-year-old cat. Knows a good deal about the case, but said “I’m not rigid in my thinking.” KEEP

B-86: Middle-aged white female working at middle school. Says if Trayvon had not been “expelled” from school in Miami — she oughta know the diff between expelled and suspended — “this could have been prevented.” DUH, WEED OUT

E-6: A young white female and mother who used to work in financial services. Used case as teaching moment for her kids, warning them to not go out late. KEEP

E-40: White female in 60s living in Iowa at shooting; heard about on national news and recalls shooting in a gated community and a teen killed. KEEP

E-54: Middle-aged white male with teenage stepson who wears hoodies. Saw photos of Fogen’s head and face with boo-boos. KEEP

E-73: Middle-aged white female from Sanford’s artsy community, raising late brother’s 15- and 18-year-olds. Says media interjected race in case. KEEP FOR NOW

M-75: Young AA female says many friends have opinions on case, but claims she doesn’t.KEEP

B-61: Young white female; remembers “after the protesters, it seemed to turn more into a racial issue…I don’t think it’s a racial issue.” KEEP

B-72: Young male doing maintenance at a school and competes in arm wrestling. Avoids news because he does not want to be “brainwashed.” TRY TO WEED OUT

E-22: Middle-aged AA female; says after shooting Sanford police should have booked Fogen and asked more questions. KEEP

E-13: Young white female collegiate who works two jobs; Heard shooting was a “racial thing.” KEEP FOR NOW.

E-28: Middle-aged white female nurse; claims she knows little about case and has no opinion about Fogen’s guilt. KEEP

K-80: Middle-aged white female with kids who has not followed case; Cconsiders “racial undertones” in case “disturbing.” WEED OUT ON HARDSHIP

K-95: Middle-aged woman who’s a full-time student and “IT geek” with two kids; Critical of protests calling for Fogen’s arrest. TRY TO WEED OUT

P-67: Native Mexican wants to serve on the jury, describing civic duty. “Some people think it is a racist thing,” he said of the shooting. A KEEPER

G-14: Middle-aged white female who recalls a “lot of anger, a lot of people upset” that Fogen was not arrested immediately. KEEP

G-29: Young black female has lived in Seminole County for eight months. Cites racial tension build-up, but claims she “stayed away from it.” KEEP

G-47: Young white male assistant restaurant manager says Fogen appears to be “stuck in the worst situation” possible. KEEP FOR NOW

?-63: Young, unemployed apparently mixed race male. Knows a little about case but pans stereotyping and says people sometimes interject race into cases . KEEP FOR NOW

G-66: Retired white female who cares for toddler grandson and moved to Central Florida in 2011. Saw photos of Fogen injuries and, “I felt sorry for him.” STRIKERAMA

G-81: Tall black male lives less than a half mile from shooting. Cites Sanford’s racial divide, but says media has misportrayed the city. KEEP

H-6: Young white male who heard call Fogen made to cops before shooting. “He sounded like he was concerned for his neighborhood.” TRY TO WEED OUT

H-7: Red-haired 50s male in a biz suit citing a “big brouhaha in Sanford,” describesd protesters as “a nuisance” and says “I still don’t know why it became a high profile case.” STRIKOLA

H-18: A dark-skinned looker in his 20s with accent who’s a mechanic, owns his shop with a partner and moved here from Kuwait. Avoids discussing certain topics. “When it’s politics, religion or race, I just don’t get involved.” KEEP

H-29: White-haired male calls national civil rights leaders who led protests in Sanford “a little circus come to town.” Says “negative for the city,” … “That honestly turned me off.” TRY TO WEED OUT

H-35: Young female who said she knows little about case. She “liked” a photo of Trayvon on Facebook. Needs to move by and of June, claiming hardship. WEED OUT ON HARDSHIP

H-81: Middle aged male (a lawyer? What kind of lawyer? Does he sit around all day looking at real estate contracts … or does he do trial work?) describes shooting as an “incident” between Fogen and Trayvon; calls shooting a “very tragic situation.” He has two pending civil cases before Nelson. KEEP FOR NOW

H-69: Preggers PJ who saw news about case on TV at work. Mentions several times that she recalled seeing pictures of Trayvon as “a young child.” WEED OUT ON HARDSHIP

H-86: Young white female says she knows almost nothing about the case. Says she keeps up with current events, but “certain cases and things I don’t follow.” KEEP

I-5: Middle-aged AA male says he heard self-defense was involved with case, at one point referring to Fogen as “gentleman that was defending himself.” KEEP

I-19: Young white female says she hasn’t followed case and knows only basics: “I don’t watch the news, I don’t read the news,” she, who lies or is really stupid, said. STRIKE

I-24: Older white woman who followed case at first, but then “just kinda tuned out.” Says “a young man lost his life and another man is fighting for his life.” STRIKE

I-33: Older white male, saying “more I heard, the less I wanted to hear.” Heard a 911 call involved in case, and “some controversy as to who was doing the screaming” heard. TRY TO WEED OUT

I-44: Dad of 3 says he’s skeptical of media and its “negativity.” Calls himself a “sports nut.” KEEP FOR NOW

I have previously described the process of group voir dire as follows:

When she gets to 40, she will gather that group together seating the PJs in the jury box, and subsequently the benches, in the order in which they were called and likely instruct them to raise their hands indicating an affirmative answer as she asks a series of questions, pausing to record each PJ’s affirmative answer to each question.

For example, she might ask for a show of hands by each PJ who has been a victim of a crime and write down each PJs number who raises their hand.

After she completes her list of questions, the lawyers, starting with Bernie de la Rionda, will question the first PJ on the list (B12) regarding each question she answered affirmatively. After both lawyers have finished with B12, they will pass or challenge her for cause. If she is excused, she will be replaced in the box by PJ B51 (she is 7th in the order).

This process will be repeated with B51 until she is passed or excused for cause. If she is excused, her seat will be taken by B55. If she is passed, the lawyers will question B29, the PJ in the second seat in the box.

This procedure likely will be followed until 30 PJs have been passed for cause.

Then the lawyers will exercise their peremptory challenges, which is usually done secretly with the lawyers passing back and forth a sheet of paper alternately listing a PJ number until one or both sides exhaust their allotment of peremptory challenges.

If one side accepts the jury of 6 before exhausting their peremptories, they retain the right to use a peremptory challenge to excuse the PJ who replaces a member of the jury struck by their opponent after they accepted the jury.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.


Court resumes at 9 am EDT.

See you in court.

(H/T to Trained Observer for the excellent list)


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1,117 Responses to Welcome to Day 8 Liveblogging Jury Selection in Zimmerman Trial

  1. Hereslookingatyou says:

    Professor , you are correct that is better left to closing arguments. I was jumping ahead . Thank you !

  2. Hereslookingatyou says:

    I wish BDLR would have asked would taking a life make you feel terrible or would you think it was GODS plan

  3. willisnewton says:

    Thanks prof and thanks everyone for another day – another day closer to the truth being established in a court of law.

  4. fauxmccoy says:

    oh, my worries have been eased, i have a ‘celestial’ nose. 😛

  5. Woow! says:

    The Z family hit the jackpot with this case. Fogen has collected thousands of dollars, Papa and Mama Z started their own begging website and no telling how much they collected. Papa Z’s book sales.

    On another note, I was scanning the net for stories on day and on one site, the posters was talking about find was to get money to Fogen directly without using paypal or having to inform the court.

    I wonder how much money that fool has collected and if MOM is aware of it and if MOM received any of it.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      No wonder Zimmerman is wearing a different expensive suits and ties each day. It’s obvious that Shellie is left out of the GZ’s shopping spree. When this is all over, she has to face a felony charge. Well, when you fool with trash it will get in your eye, sometimes it will blind you.

      • ladystclaire says:

        His suits and ties, are from the house of Burberry. to think he is dressing in threads like that and, buying them with money donated for is defense. he’s dressing better than some of his benefactors. another saying goes like this, if you lay down with dogs, you’ll get up with fleas.

  6. Woow! says:

    Why is it that most biggots are always trashy looking, dumb, and a few stones shy of crazy and have the never to be prejudiced against others?

    That Z family is bunch of dumb bigots that think they are superior to others!!!!!

    Papa Z has the look of an alcholic. He is too wrinkly for his age. Mama Z just looks mean and nasty. Those poor kids did not stand a chance with those parents. It saddens my heart that parents teach their kids to elite haters.

    • Woow! says:

      excuse the typos

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Oh, honey, it’s sad, but it seems so true.
      We ask ourselves whenever something evil happens, and watching these folks is a lesson and an answer. 😦

    • concernedczen says:

      You’ve got to be carefully taught.

      • concernedczen says:

        You’ve got to be taught
        To hate and fear,
        You’ve got to be taught
        From year to year,
        It’s got to be drummed
        In your dear little ear
        You’ve got to be carefully taught.

        You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
        Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
        And people whose skin is a diff’rent shade,
        You’ve got to be carefully taught.

        You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late,
        Before you are six or seven or eight,
        To hate all the people your relatives hate,
        You’ve got to be carefully taught!

        – from the 1949 Rodgers and Hammerstein musical South Pacific

    • ladystclaire says:

      My guess is that, that was Grace sitting with the parents and, I with you on Sr’s wrinkles and, I have read some where before, that he does indeed have a problem with alcohol. this I imagine is where the two sons, got their love of this drank from.

      I wonder if Grace has a taste for the drank as well.

    • Malisha says:

      Not that I put much stock in what any of these agencies says about their own excellence, but check out the quotes:

      He is totally devoted to seeking justice for victims … Mr. de la Rionda … has been a member of the office’s Homicide Unit since June of 1986. He has previously been Director of the Homicide Division, Director of Circuit Court, Director of Repeat Offender Court, Division Chief of Nassau County and the Public Corruption Unit as well as a trial attorney in the Felony, Sexual Assault and County Divisions.

      Mr. de la Rionda won the State Attorney’s Office First Annual Distinguished Service Award in 1991 and Fourth Annual Jury Trial Award in 1993. Mr. de la Rionda has tried over 250 jury trials, including 68 murder cases …


      Um … yeah, … go ahead, show us what you can do. :mrgreen:

    • willisnewton says:

      MOM to be awarded “least of the least” at separate ceremony in sewer underneath Capital building…

      All kidding aside MOM is no fool; he just hasn’t got much of Anythjng to work with. He made a bid for turning this case around using social media to gin up mass support for his client; enough support to poison the jury pool completely IMO but it just didnt work. Remember the Facebook page? Recall GZs own website? And jeralyn Merritt seems to have fizzled out quite a bit as well… People kept getting banned for perfectly reasonable posts over there. You any build a grassroots movement on negativity and denial alone.

      • willisnewton says:

        You can’t build – typo

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        That’s what I was thinking watching the faces at the defense table, as the p jurors were having a jolly good time with Bernie.

        Part of O’Mara’s problem is that the group he is depending on to give him his acquittal, is for a large part also more inclined to side with LE, or in this case the prosecution.

        The defense’s case depends on hard core racists. That kind of racism is not rational and wants to express it self. There are a couple left in the pool. But less than the number of strikes Bernie has available.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Well, well done, Sir.
      I’m learning a lot about how to learn about people’s bias from him.
      I got my BA in communications and studied acting, and I have to say that I’m impressed.
      (Of course, the humanity and caring bar compared to the Defense is low, low, low.

  7. Woow! says:

    Did anyone see Fogen’s family look at or talk to Shellie?

    • willisnewton says:

      I’m telling you! That family is either very very odd, or they are locked into a mutual distrust cycle of some sort. George sits with his back to all of them and never ever makes eye contact. And they don’t look at one another and RZ jr doesn’t speak or look at Shellie either.

      I’m guessing they are ALL under secret indictment over money laundering as each suspect the other of being an informant yet all must attend the trial to keep up the facade that they are NOT the informant!

      • Jun says:

        LMAO they got roasted for that because they’re fucking stupid

        Everyone knew about his PayPal or Peter Pan

        When he claimed he was broke and then left in a new model BMW…

        They checked his jailhouse phone calls and bank records

        Was not hard from there LOL

        Yes, and Robbie The Racist is involved

        I hope the cops indict him for “structuring, and conspiracy to commit perjury”

      • Woow! says:

        Hold up Fogen bought a new Beemer?

    • Tzar says:

      yeah, that the hell was up with that?
      did Shelly turn state?

      • willisnewton says:

        No one knows for sure. Were she to do so it’s doubtful she would be attending the trial every day but anything is possible. It appears perhaps the strategy is one the defense has out in place to work like this : the family is all there and friend Frank Taaffe is there in support of the defendant but he doesn’t acknowledge them ever lest a juror who doesn’t like one of them somehow transfer a bad association from an obviosly guilty perjurer like Shellie or a money launderer like the sister or a racist like the parents or a drunk driver like FT somehow over to Boy Scout GZ.

        I’m making wild speculation about informers simply beause they act so strange and the fact that many things are possible…

    • Jun says:

      I am willing to bet they think Shellie rolled and I think she did too

    • Valerie says:

      According to Fogen Sr…per his recent book… After the bond hearing (where the Fogen family testified via telephone) Senior states that he took his daughter (not Shellie) outside and asked her whether Fogen had the money to pay his bail, and the sister stated that he did. Why did he not ask Shellie…hmmm…Maybe because he does not trust Shellie or her husband? This family seems to play a cat and mouse game with the truth.

    • Sleuth says:

      I know one thing, Popazidiot seem to be very uncomfortable sitting next to her.

      Her mother stepped out, leaving an empty space between Popazidit and She-lie, and she acted as though he was just another spectator seated in the gallery.

  8. willisnewton says:

    Now that we have seen GZs sister up close, does anyone care to speculate about her being spotted or not in the ATM video that may or may not end with Osterman?

  9. Malisha says:

    If there is 90% chance that a certain group of people will have tried marijuana before their 18th birthday, still that doesn’t mean that an ONE person in that group has a 90% chance of doing that; his chance is still 50/50: either he will or not. It depends on him, not on what 90% of his group has done. It’s a hard thing for many people to understand. If they don’t study statistics.

      • Tzar says:

        rules of statistics
        if only 2 outcomes possible (smoke or not smoke) (granted all other factors equal: availability and such)
        then probability of each outcome is always 50/50 regardless of what happened before

      • Malisha says:

        I know; it’s counterintuitive. But it means the same as saying that “individuals do not follow demographics” or “the success rate percentages for this form of cancer won’t tell you whether or not YOU will go into remission.” You can fall into the percentage that DOES the more probable thing or you can fall into the percentage that does NOT do the more probable thing, depending on YOU as an individual or, in the other example, depending on YOUR BODY and YOUR CANCER and YOUR individual circumstances.

        A Hispanic man who carries a sidearm may fall into a demographic that Fogen might assume would insist upon his absolute innocence and his right to punish anyone who thought he had committed a crime. That Hispanic man is not a statistic, though. He has a brain. Perhaps he carries a fire-arm for a completely different reason from the reason Fogen carried. Perhaps that man has disdain for people who go running around their neighborhoods tilting at windmills. Perhaps that man believes that a guy like Fogen brings bad repute to honest, upstanding Hispanic Americans who pay their bills and believe in equality and freedom. Fogen can play his own fantasies out and yet be 100% wrong about the motivations, intentions, morals and beliefs of someone he tries to fit into a stereotype — hey wait a minute, that’s what he did with Trayvon Benjamin Martin, come to think of it.

      • @Tzar & Malisha – your interpretation of statistics is just off. Saying that there are only two outcomes to an event doesn’t mean that the chance of each outcome is 50%.

        In the case of a fair coin toss, the chance of getting heads on a given toss is 50%. However, if you toss a “rigged” coin then there are still only two possible outcomes – heads or tails – but, one of those outcomes is more likely to occur than the other since the coin has been weighted to not be “fair”. What you might end up with is a coin such that in 100 tosses, 60 tosses result in heads and 40 tosses result in tails.

        It is true that events like coin tosses are independent. If you toss a fair coin 100 times and get 100 heads, the chance that you will get a head on the 101st toss is still 50%.

        In terms of saying that 90% of a certain group of people use marijuana before their 18th birthday has the following implications – 1.) If I looked at a group of 100 people in that cohort, I would predict that 90 of them have smoked. 2.) If I know that a given individual belongs to that cohort, I would be able to predict, without any other knowledge of the person, that he/she smoked, however, I would be wrong about 10% of the time on that prediction.

  10. I believe BDLR did a good job indoctrinating the jury today. Great foundation for his opening statement.

    Plus, he appears to have established rapport and trust.

    • concernedczen says:

      He speaks very passionately.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i think he did all of that PLUS making almost every juror appear worthy of a peremptory challenge to the defense. i think that, too, was part of his strategy. the defense is not going to know where to start. i only hope that BDLR got all the info he needed to make necessary cuts.

    • Unabogie says:

      Yes, I was impressed by his sense of humor. I only served on a jury once, but I agree that it all comes down to those first few minutes when you hear the opening statements and decide which side you trust. Even subconsciously, that’s how it works.

    • Woow! says:

      Get ready to hear MOM and West go on and on about how Fogen was attacked by a “wannabe” thug rather than presenting a case.

      I wonder how much money they are paying that jury consultant and how long he is going to stick around?

  11. I don’t necessarily think P67 would be bad for the State because he has kids. He’s trying now to protect them. Listen to him speak about the little one wanting to sleep with them b/c she’s scared. Little kids ask to sleep with the parents when they’re scared all the time. It makes them feel safe. I think he would sympathize for a child being chased down & killed. Just saying…

    • Malisha says:

      I think it’s funny that the Outhousers believe even one Black on the jury will “not be objective” [“objective about” murder?] but Hispanics on the jury will automatically side with their guy — HA HA HA!!

      That would be a good juror question: “Can you be objective about murder, or are you so biased that you’re against it?”

      Or: “Can you be objective about going along with murder so long as you’d probably want to get off if YOU committed it?”

      Or, the really honest one: “Can you be pro-murder just as much as anti-murder so long as we slander the victim a lot?”

      • Trained Observer says:

        It’s the old “he had it come’n” defense.

        As anyone who has ever lived in a sundown town knows, Trayvon had a lot of nerve walkin’ around after dark in a fancy-ass gated community like R@TL. Why, he shouldn’t even have been there at high noon if you ask Fogen pal Frank Taaffe.

        My take: If one Black, one Hispanic, and four Whites (two females), end up on this jury, the whites females will be at the forefront of calling for Fogen’s head to stick in a Cuisinart.

      • MollyK says:

        I have always thought that mothers, particularly mothers of teenage boys or former teenage boys, would be the most likely to vote for conviction. Next comes fathers, then teachers and others with much experience with this age group.

      • Operacarla says:

        I went to the outhouse and they are commenting on how black Gladys is…perhaps having second thoughts of supporting the zimz.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO why would hispanics side with him?

        For all of his life, except this trial, he has disregarded his latino heritage and claimed to be “white”

        He is racist against Mexicans

        If I were looking on the outside, Fogen looks like he is racist against latinos and ashamed of being latino himself

        Anyways, I am sure Hispanics and blacks can be objective

        On a more hilarious note, how are the most unobjective website ever in the history of the internet, the Fogen Tinfoil Hat Rugrats or whatever the fuck they call themselves, supposed to be able to tell what is objective? LOL

        Being objective means being free from racism as well

        They claim to be objective by making racist remarks about black people and generalizing them?

        So blacks are not smart enough to see this is bloodly murder?

        I have said it before but I will have a good laugh if the jury is objective and impartial, and has blacks, latinos, and women, which are all groups Fogen disparages and attacks with his family and gang

      • Two sides to a story says:

        OperaCarla- LOL. Those Treestumpers swing this way and that.

  12. O’Mara, West and Hirschorn may want Hispanics on the jury, but I believe that’s a racist and extremely shallow line of thinking that is not going to work out.

    I’ll be blunt: It’s stupid.

    • cielo62 says:

      Frederick~ Amazingly, individual people DON’T think in demographics.


    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Maybe it has something to do with the line up?
      I can’t imagine this guy would be good for the defense.

    • crazy1946 says:

      One might be inclined to think that the Fog-diot is only Hispanic when it is to his benefit! Other wise why did he claim to be “White” for the bulk of his life? When the Hispanic members of the jury (if there is any) see even the medical report from his Dr. assistant, where he considered him self as non Hispanic, he will probably alienate those folks more than he thinks, well it would if he thinks….

    • Trained Observer says:

      I think Hispanics — and that’s a broad term — would be less forgiving of Fogen that others.

    • Jun says:

      Well you got to remember that at the end of the day, they work for Fogen and Fogen and his family and his gang members, judge people on race

      They do not see individuality, they see race

    • Woow! says:

      The entire defense team as well as the defendant are stupid.

  13. ay2z says:

    later folks!! Take care, esp SG today!

    I am intuitively pleased with the events of today. And see the need for a break from this for the defense, they need to arrange all those little 3 1/2 x 5 recipie cards Hirshorn shuffles around in piles with good old fashioned elastic bands.

    And they need to recoup and tweek (or find) a plan for tomorrow.

  14. Woow! says:

    When did Fogen and MamaZ go on a rant against Mexicans?

    • ay2z says:

      just fogen, 2005 Myspace. Just google, you’ll see it and articles quoting MOM confirming that it is the client’s own.

      • Malisha says:

        I think his rant against Mexicans is very relevant to the idea that he was just concerned about his neighborhood. Here’s a guy who says that he doesn’t want to have to avoid running over people! (Oh, was it just Mexicans he would have chosen to run over? Oh well…)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I can provide Fogen a nice tour of Los Angeles, Mexifornia.

  15. smokeegyrl says:

    I didn’t think of it that way but you are so right… we need him to stay…

  16. P67 is the 21st PJ.

    O’Mara can’t risk having a Mexican American on the jury and the defendant certainly doesn’t want him on the jury because he hates Mexicans.

    This may be an elaborate head fake to sucker Bernie into using a peremptory challenge so that O’Mara doesn’t have to.

    • Tzar says:

      I think so too, I hope Bernie is on to him

    • whonoze says:

      P-67 would be a poor juror, but not necessarily biased toward either side. He would be nervous and distracted. In deliberations, he would be a follower, to hide in the crowd and get out of there as fast as possible.

      I’m sure Hirschhorn thinks GZ’s anti-Mexican posts will never see the light of day in court, and is assuming that a patriotic male Hispanic immigrant will identify with Good Citizen George. Not very sophisticated thinking, if you ask me, but I don’t make the big bucks as a jury consultant.

      • Jun says:

        LOL if that is Omara’s plan, and there are hispanics, I’d straight up bring up in court “if George is proud to be hispanic, and feels hispanics are his people, why has he for his whole life, except this trial, told everyone he was a white man? So according to his actions, it seems he is ashamed of being latino” and then i would bring up his Myspace

      • Thing of it is, a patriotic Hispanic male immigrant works too damn much to appreciate another person, who is essentially unemployed but somehow maintaining a condo, a couple of vehicles, cells phone plans, a loaded gun, a claim that he is Afro-peruvian, a claim that he ‘mentors black kids,’ plus extra time to snoop about the neighborhood…but at trial endear a true Hispanic working person with the ‘hey, I am just like you.’

        Because he isn’t.

  17. Dave says:

    I couldn’t understand all he said but apparently his wife saw something about the trial either on the internet or tv and discussed it with him. That alone should get him dismissed.

    • Leisa says:

      He said something about hoping he was not out on the street. I’ll see if it is on u-tube and maybe I’ll pick up a bit more the second time around. 😉

      • greenwarrior4 says:

        This was in response to his concern that his employer wouldn’t pay him if the trial went on longer than 4 weeks.

  18. Woow! says:

    I hope JN just told them to let this man go.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Me too. He sound really scared and desperate. MOM know damn well that he does not want him to sit in on this case. To downgrade the mans concern is disgusting!

  19. Court is in recess until 9 am tomorrow morning.

  20. Leisa says:

    They should let the poor man go home. He obviously cannot afford to be away from his job for this length of time.

  21. Get that guy off the jury. I swear MOM’s new name is Lionel Hutz.

  22. I can’t imagine why O’Mara wants to keep this guy on the jury when he so desperately doesn’t want to be there.

    The guy will hate him.

    • ay2z says:

      Yes, did you just see Bernie’s quiet reaction as he sat down– looked concerned.

      Could MOM be doing this for the cameras, knowing full well he should look favorably towards Mexicans given the anti-Mexican rant of his client on his (confirmed by MOM last year) Myspace page of 2005, against those very people.

      Maybe playing the publicity game only, and doesn’t want him.

    • Jun says:

      Wouldnt Bernie be able to just say for cause

      “Your Honor, this man simply does not want to be here. He’s not gonna want to do the job and will not properly do it because he does not want to do it. Because of this, he will not be objective and impartial”

      I am not a lawyer but from my experience as a boss, if someone does not want to do the work, there’s no point having them there

  23. Sleuth says:

    First round P-67 seemed eager and happy to serve, now he’s hedging. I know he says its due to the media, but I believe he’s hiding something else.

    They need to dismiss him. I have had a change of heart, and don’t think he will be good for the State.

    • Maybe his family saw something threatening about him and they’re scared? It’s some mean ass people in this world. The little kid is scared too. I don’t like it. Leave the man alone!

      • They saw what happened to E-7.

      • Sleuth says:

        Having been a juror in a high profile case myself, which involved a cop as defendant, I understand fully the concerns P67 stated today. If true, they are very valid concerns.

        O’Dirty did not want him on, and as much as I hate to admit this, I think he was picking up on the same “vibe” as I did, and feels there’s more to his story that he was telling. And no, I don’t think drug lords from Mexico are looking for him unless he owes them money.

        I was one of the people who posted the story about juror E7. He should not have lied about having a FB account, but I believe it was wrong to publish his name, or any other juror’s name.

        From what I’ve been reading, and it could all be wrong, the way the State of Florida is handling jury selection is unusual in comparison to other states dealing with similar cases.

        From what I understood, the only reason jury selection proceeded in this manner is because the press/media agreed to it, although under the Sunshine Law of Florida they didn’t have to. Supposedly, in Florida, only Grand Juries remain totally anonymous. Allegedly, you never know their names.

  24. ay2z says:

    You can understand why someone with experience in Mexico, with the corrupt police, the jail system, the executions by cartels, would be concerned, he has a different perspective from anyone else not gone through it.

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ exactly. Not to  mention people who have just …disappeared. He has very good reasons for concern. He’s very brave to want to give back.


      • ay2z says:

        Yes! I met someone, adult son of a landlady, who arrived back in Canada from what landlady claimed was not his fault etc, he was in Mexico and she said he was under threat (I am sure related to big drug dealing) and he was in Sing Sing (sp?) and I’m guessing he was somehow put well away from the big prisons in Texas for some reason.

        I talked to him only briefly, and he said in Mexico he had come across executed people or person in the forests.

        I didn’t ask, but knew he was in something big and was able to get out of prison in the US.

  25. Woow! says:

    MOM wants this guy really bad.

  26. Tony Pipitone:

    Recent citizen from Mexico, Juror P-67, expresses hardship in letter written by wife, who is worried about situation, as is child.

    Juror P-67 and his wife are scared for him to serve. Did they see something threatening about him? These mean ass people!

  27. ay2z says:

    Here’s what cfnews13 posted in an article, this is a direct copy paste of the text.

    Not ‘Mexican’, but others could easily say that rather than citizen or resident or P76,

    Born in Mexico, wants on jury to “give back” to country.

  28. Tzar says:

    Ladies and gentlemen the caring O’Mara

  29. smokeegyrl says:

    I don’t blame him on the labeling part… We are so brainwashed on racial labels… I hate labels myself..

  30. towerflower says:

    MOM: The media is forbidden to put your name or photo into the public……tell that to the rejected juror who just filed a lawsuit against you.

  31. disappointed says:

    Why do I get the feeling MOM wants this specific PJ? Maybe because he will not understand everything? I am kind of confused.

    • ay2z says:

      Prof said it’s not who you want to keep, it’s who you want to get rid of. Maybe MOM wants to get rid of him by forcing the state to use a perempt.

    • I am also confused. O’Mara seems hell-bent to inflict hardship, to keep the guy. Why?

      • Sleuth says:

        I think O’Dirty was just biding the time so his paralegals could dig up something on this guy.

        He doesn’t want him on the jury.

  32. smokeegyrl says:

    I believe that is Rene putting stuff out there… she needs to stop. She is a Z follower..

  33. What a dick. Calling his concerns minor, MOM?

    • disappointed says:

      EXACTLY! Just like it is no big deal Fogen killed Trayvon. He feels it’s no big deal, one less thug on the streets.

    • cielo62 says:

      Ryan~ and just AFTER a PJ had his identity thrown out for the Zidiots to devour?


      • rnewton32 says:

        I was thinking the same thing. That PJ got outed. Face all over the screen for everyone to see. How dare MOM minimize this man’s legitimate fear for his life and family. I don’t see why he would want him on the case anyway. Fogen doesn’t like Mexicans.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      I can not stand MOM! How is he going to describe the mans concerns as minor! What an idiot! It must be major or he would not be so afraid.

  34. Woow! says:

    If the Z family and MOM continue with their charade of death threats JN should shut them down. They are trying to scare the PJs and sway public opinion.

    Really!! these people are wasting money on body guards b/c no one is checking for them.

    JN let MOM and Co. get away with to much.

  35. towerflower says:

    P67 is up, the one who wanted to be questioned alone.

  36. Nef05 says:

    So with the Frye hearing starting at 2pm tomorrow and the defense not getting a jump on it tonight, I’m going to guess that WEST will not be asking the questions…

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        West screwed things up, he kept cutting the expert off, even after the judge asked him not to. He argued with the judge that the answer had become non-responsive, Judge said, we don’t know that, let him finish!

        West when into an annoying long winded and unnecessarily convoluted, baseless and fact free distortion of the Frye testimony to date, as if he were lecturing at TCTH, where things don’t have to make sense. After the prosecution rebutted him, he wanted another go at it but Judgey baby shut him down fast. She swept up the folders and quickly adjourned saying she’d be back with an answer at 9 am tomorrow. You can be it will not favor West.

        Hardly a wonder then that Omar uses West as a “Warm body in a suit” guy.

  37. disappointed says:

    Side bar? What did I miss?

  38. gbrbsb says:

    The jury may all exclaim “Hurrah” as Bernie says, but I bet they’ll all be going “Ugh” in a short while especially if they get West !

  39. towerflower says:

    BDLR dropped the clothing questions real quick, I think MOM won that sidebar. Too close to profiling, I think.

  40. Nef05 says:

    “Responsible”, “Accountable” for their actions – excellent question!

  41. SoulSistaWoo says:

    I see the entire Zimmerman clan asking themselves, how in the hell did they miss the jury sequestration gravy train all this time. Free Housing, meals, phone and computer access.

    I know they could just kick themselves or Daddy Z for not telling them!

  42. Deborah Moore says:

    Ah, did you catch George’s face…everyone but us gets to go home for the weekend.
    George: Me neither. I’m Sad.

  43. gbrbsb says:

    Wow… I thought we were going to have a “human rights” challenge here !

  44. Sleuth says:

    There appears to be a lot of gun owners, or people familiar with guns, and many who are members of NRA. They all sound like responsible gun owners, and this does not bode well for the confessed murderer.

  45. Tzar says:

    Did y’all peep MOM trying to take a sneak peek at BDLR’s papers?

  46. Sleuth says:

    Seems as though Hirschhorn was deliberately trying to shield his clients from the camera during BDLR’s review of the State’s Burden, etc.

    • Yorazigo says:

      I thought so too. For few minutes before GZ was deliberately looking to his left as BDLR read law on Murder II ( definite body language & facial expression of guilt). When Hirshhorn saw him, Hirshhorn moved forward to shield him from camera.

      • Sleuth says:

        Okay……so it wasn’t my tired eyes. “A sign of guilt” is the same thing that came to my mind. It seemed so deliberate.

  47. Malisha says:

    Did somebody say “rhymes with sun-PUNT”?

    So much WEATHER down there in Florida!

  48. Malisha says:

    Did he say “rhymes with snow-pile”?

  49. disappointed says:

    did he say something about justifiable self defense?

  50. whonoze says:

    Bill S. thinks BDLR is doing a poor job of voir dire as he is talking too much, and not eliciting enough responses from the jurors that would reveal their attitudes. Too many yes or no questions. But it seems to me (as to many of you, it seems) that BDLR isn’t TRYING to get info, he’s trying to indoctrinate, basically setting forth key elements of the State’s case in a ‘stealth’ manner in which he can use humor AND ask everyone to agree to his defintions and framings of the issues. Interesting strategy. Maybe the State is relying on demographics or whatever they gleaned in the prelims to determine their challenges.

    • gbrbsb says:

      And not so stealth… I’d say. And I personally think he’s doing a grand job of that because he has certainly prepped the jury about the evidence they are about to hear.

    • Tzar says:

      But it seems to me (as to many of you, it seems) that BDLR isn’t TRYING to get info, he’s trying to indoctrinate, basically setting forth key elements of the State’s case in a ‘stealth’ manner in which he can use humor AND ask everyone to agree to his defintions and framings of the issues.

      This is exactly what I see as well

    • cielo62 says:

      whonoze~ I believe conducting voir dire is like teaching; there are many different styles and they can be effective for whatever goal you have in mind. Bill S. should STFU or just say, “I would do this differently.”


      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Yep. You may be better able to cage the jurors by their body language in a setting where they feel comfortable and relaxed.

    • FactsFirst says:

      I may not be as smart as y’all, but I’m picking up on what Bernie’s putting down… My question is, Where was BILL when O’Haha and WEST were making a mockery of the court system?

    • whonoze says:

      To be fair, “doing a poor job” was my characterization of Bill’ Sheaffer’s remarks. He expresses his opinions in a very judicious, polite and respectful manner. He is a very good commentator, and unlike most of the so-called legal experts, actually maintains an effective neutrality and fairness IMHO.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        agreed, whonoze. i’m enjoying his commentary, very much. it is a nice companion to this blog.

      • Sleuth says:

        I also enjoy Scheaffer’s commentaries. I do BDLR was bouncing around just a tad too much for me as a spectator. I really did appreciate all those breaks.

  51. towerflower says:

    16 out of 40 own or have family who own guns.

    • towerflower says:

      I caught 2 with a concealed but one of the 2 let her license expire.

    • Dave says:

      I can’t believe they are all telling the truth. I think at least have aren’t admitting to it.

      • towerflower says:

        If one has a concealed and is lying they can find that out easily. Gun ownership not so much, it is not required to register here in this state.

      • Dave says:

        Sorry. I was addressing the question of ownership.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i cannot imagine what they would have to gain by lying. considering the demographics, it would make them part of the ‘in’ crowd and there’s no registration law so no fear of being ‘found out’.

    • Shari says:

      Not sure it means much but my father owned a gun at one point. Us siblings weren’t supposed to know we were snooping around. To this day we haven’t mentioned seeing it. FYI we were old enough to know to leave it alone, we were safe. He’s a life long democrat. So I hope gun ownership isn’t going to determine a jurors leanings.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Despite the jury selection consultants 90,000 in fees, the defense has exactly the jury they didn’t want. 😆

      • cielo62 says:

        Lonnie- I heard that Hirschorn was happy with the results. Is he as deluded as MOM?


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          He’s got 90,000 reasons to be happy with the results. That’s not self delusion that’s simply good business acumen. Having already been paid, he would not want to provoke conversation about what he might have done better. Simply state that he’s happy with the result (6 women, mothers, cat owners, egad) and scramadoodle outta there!

          Hey, Hirschorn can head for the beach and lay about with pina coladas and babes. While Omar watches his career slowly circle the drain.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie~ Sounds good! I guess he WOULD be happy, even if 6 Trayvon Supporters made it on the jury; he’ still got paid!  LOL!!


  52. towerflower says:

    Bernie would be shocked at me I think. shotguns….yes rifles….yes….pistols…..yes, single action, double action, semi automatic. CWP, Instructor for all, shoot quite frequently. Shooting since I was 11. Shooting coach at a high school and at a private range. Life member of NRA. lol.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @towerflower — similar here, just do not teach like you. my dad had me starting off with a .22 revolver when i was 5, with him right behind me of course and his hands on mine. i have been exposed to just about everything since. i have my preferences though. being a cowgirl is not a bad thing.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      below you stated

      My father was a gun enthusiast, we were raised never to point even a toy gun at another person. We knew never to touch one of his guns.

      same at our house.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I never liked real guns, but we had the same training. You didn’t point a toy cap gun at anyone at our house! I did love those and pretended to be various cowboys and cowgirls at times.

  53. whonoze says:

    They’re all packing! Welcome to Florida!

    • Malisha says:

      And not one of them has been forced to kill a teen-ager?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      West trying to snow the court with half truths and twisted reasoning, half baked ideas and other sundry sheer, over-the-edge lunacy. He’s wasting everyone’s time, everyone left in court listening to him are people capable of critical thinking, thus West is wasting his time with his poorly thought out diatribes.

      If you own a theater and you want free vegetables, West is the man you put on stage!

  54. Mike DeForest

    Now state is pointing out that GeorgeZimmerman and TrayvonMartin are of different races. None say it matters. O’Mara asks for bench conf.

  55. Deborah Moore says:

    Everybody Run,
    The prospective juror’s got a gun!
    (Rachael, you knew I had to.)

  56. Nef05 says:

    Did MOM complin about the joviality of BDLR’s presentation? He seems a little subdued, now.

    Did anyone else note that O’Mara requested the sidebar as soon as the comments posted here about BDLR’s charm and affability, and how it didn’t bode well for the defense?

    • Boyd says:

      Yes something happened saw West’s snicker after that little meeting and Bernie was a little off, but he’s good now.

    • cielo62 says:

      Nef05~ LOL! I wouldn’t doubt! Let’s start sending him some MISinformation! “The defense SHOULD want the medical people on the jury. That way they can explain how undisputed that broken nose was. AND keep those karate people. THEY know how dangerous MMA blows are to the head.”


    • Sleuth says:

      Nef05 – Now you know he’s got their paralegals digging and lurking on blogs.

  57. FactsFirst says:

    just my observation… Bernie has been about BUSINESS out the gate… Although many may not agree with his methods, I believe there is a method to his madness… Today what I see is Bernie making these jurors comfortable because HE KNOWS he can be a HARD ASS… This Bernie’s calm before the STORM.. IMHO…

    • Sleuth says:

      I agree. He had them so comfortable, they were tripping over themselves to answering questions and volunteer answers.

  58. Trained Observer says:

    Sidebar: George Zimmer, he of the melodious voice and founder of Men’s Wearhouse, has been abruptly sacked. Could he be guilty of selling Fogen those ill-fitting suits?

  59. Leisa says:

    Be prepared for Mom to try to even the score.

    • Nef05 says:

      He can try, but I don’t believe he has the genuine charm and empathy that just flows out of BDLR. You get the idea he’d be a great neighbor, the kind of guy who’d have a neighborhood cookout where you’d have a great time and everyone would feel welcome.

      • Sleuth says:

        O’Dirty lacks any social graces as far as I’m concerned. He always looks like he could star in his own version of, “Angry White Man”.

  60. Sleuth says:

    I strongly believe the confessed murderer had a prior back injury and a broken nose, waaaay before he crossed paths with Trayvon,

    • towerflower says:

      He did have a documented back problem. He had a special chair at work for it.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Or a made up back problem. I have a back problem that I have been suffering from for over 10 years. Sometimes it is tough to just walk 10 feet, let alone patrol my community AND chase after someone! He has been a manipulator and liar all of his life.

      • Sleuth says:

        If you look at the various pictures of him, especially those prior to his 2012 arrest, you can really see the difference.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Nellie Nell

        Oh Nellie, I can only imagine the problems you have as a result of back pain/injury, my heart goes out to you.

        I know a few people with back injuries, and I don’t care what they take, or surgeries they have, seems like nothing ever corrects the cause, or seems to relieve the pain for any reasonable amount of time.

        And they sure ain’t out applying for jobs that would require them to be running behind folks. Some days, my sister-in-law can barely get out of bed.

        A manipulator, he most definitely is.

      • Sleuth says:


        I read about that. I sure hope they present the documentation at trial.

  61. gbrbsb says:

    And could he be concealing and carrying it now ? !

    • towerflower says:

      Not in a courthouse……that’s on the no no list

      • gbrbsb says:

        Whew… albeit I had presumed that just wanted a joke… not exactly conducive to fair trials and justice having jurors carrying guns. Over he we pass metal detector to access any court and I would presume the same or even more so there.

  62. towerflower says:

    Gun questions now, should be good. All believe in 2nd Ad.

  63. lurker says:

    DW really didn’t like the question about whether Trayvon’s life was worth less because he was under 18, or African American. Maybe he didn’t like the jury being reminded that an adult killed a minor.

  64. Woow! says:

    PapaZ and Gladys are some unattractive people.

  65. Trained Observer says:

    All this jocularity … if not knowing better, we’d think this was a team-building event at some sort of corporate shindig. Everyone’s having a great time …. except Team Fogen. But wait! For BDLR it is a team-building exercise, and he’s deciding who’s gonna be on his team.

    • ay2z says:

      It’s getting results, and I think that JN designed this in co-op with both sides to cover many bases quickly during general.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Bingo! Such astute comments here.
      Nice crowd, all. I could kiss you.

  66. willisnewton says:

    With every question BDLR asks the PJs he is painting te defendant as an outlier in what “normal” people engage in, it seems.

    For better or worse this is good strategy on his part. The subtle message seems to be “we are okay, that guy at the defendant’s table isn’t one of us. “.

  67. Leisa says:

    Mom couldn’t take it one more minute. He appears to have no lips when he is angry.

  68. disappointed says:

    Why is Fogen avoiding eye contact with the PJs?

    • ay2z says:

      sure was when NW q’s asked, looked directly away at one point.

    • Sleuth says:


      They were all sub-consciously telling him about everything he did wrong.

      They all laughed, and said no, after being asked if they ever ran after a suspect. The thought it sounded ridiculous to them.

  69. Expert on Channel 9 says Bernie needs to talk less listen more.

    • ay2z says:

      Phhhhttt….. on that ‘expert’

    • Malisha says:

      Not now. Now, Bernie has taken control and he’s telling folks how this will play out. It’s necessary. He’s watching HOW they’re listening because after all, during the trial, it will be the LISTENERS who will determine what happens. He’s right on.

  70. “I haven’t talked to H35 yet…” SMART! It’s like in poker, you talked to someone just to hear them talk, whether they tell you information you want or not.

  71. gbrbsb says:

    Seems MOM is getting a tad worried about these pointed questions ? : – )

  72. ay2z says:

    Race matter? H 35, says no, nowhere no how.

    Ahh…. MOM is on his way to the bar. No MOM, JN does not have a bottle of the thick pink stuff behind the bench.

  73. What? Is O’Mara ticked?

    • ay2z says:

      sumpthin suspicious about the ‘race’ word, I suspect

      • ay2z says:

        papa z was watching and smiling at the bench as he said something to the wife. Sense an encouraging comment about MOM taking an incentive moment.

    • towerflower says:

      Looks like he doesn’t like the clothing questions. He was going with if I’m in a cowboy hat and boots….cowboy, surfer trunks…..surfer. Profiling.

  74. disappointed says:

    MOM is going to cry. LOL

  75. ay2z says:

    I 44 is self defined ‘expert’ in cell phones.

    Some Q if that entitles to give their ‘opinion’/

    (LOL Bernie in Hawaii print surfer shorts!!)

  76. gbrbsb says:

    I reckon we all have assumed things about people at one point in time… surely it’s whether you act on that ?

  77. disappointed says:

    Does anybody think it should matter what someone wears? Fogen put your hand down!

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Right….. I can not stand the sight of him, Shellie, Gladys or the Top Racist Papa!!!! The other jerk off must be somewhere penning his script for his movie that he thinks he will cash in on! Rotten to the core. Can not wait for those cuffs to clickity click!

  78. Sleuth says:

    OooooWeeeeeee! K-80’s husband is block captain for their NHW but he doen’t patrol. I like her.

    All questioned about NHW pretty much had the same answer, IOW, they were not busy bodies.

  79. disappointed says:

    You call me, I call you… Maybe Fogen was not home when he got call about Trayvon. Did he rush home? Cell pings? Dang hurry up opening statements.

  80. amsterdam1234 says:

    He is laying out his case. I am very pleased with his questions.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      You read my freaking mind.
      Thinking the same thing.
      Maybe that’s another reason The Dark Side is angry and depressed.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I just took a peek. This is not what they were expecting.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        The truth (facts and evidence) does not have to hide or play games.
        Fred said this was going to be fascinating. Right again, prof.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      O man O man O man, West is one really horrible lawyer. Worse yet he’s totally annoying. Did you see where the guy from the American Bar Association rushed into the court and demanded West hand over his law license? He then ripped it into little pieces, dropped them on the floor and stomped on the to the wild applause of the audience and with thanks from the Judge. Okay, okay, so I’m dreaming it didn’t happen… YET!!! 😀

  81. FactsFirst says:

    OMGOODNESS!!! Bernie done stepped his sexiness up! (If thats possible..) I’m loving his humorous personable side…

  82. fauxmccoy says:

    bernie’s got charm that is genuine — o’mara tries to fake it, west is pathetic in his attempts … discussion of cell phone experts

  83. The laughter along with Bernie is a bad sign for GZ.

  84. lurker says:

    Sound and picture down? Both NBC and Wild seem to be stuck.

  85. gbrbsb says:

    Clever Bernie to ask all these latest questions.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Bernie is asking questions that are ruining the juror selection experts carefully planned approach. These questions caught him by surprise and revealed that foggen acceptable jurors are few and far between. Hopefully he has either required a massive retainer or one day’s payment in advance, otherwise he’ll just be another lawsuit the defense has to face down.

      It’s bad if you have to fight Omar for your pay, because he will attack your CV.

  86. Malisha says:

    Fogen wouldn’t like a juror who knew anything about ANYTHING. He can only hope to snow jurors who are complete ignoramuses with mental disturbances similar to and nearly as severe as his own.

  87. Bernie to juror: I guess no one has followed you? LOL! I’ll bet West is ticked?

  88. disappointed says:

    Bet they boot the wrestler. He would know George’s story is shite.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I concur, but there are a few healthcare and one with martial arts. Hopefully enough will remain.

    • Nef05 says:

      Indeed. So would boxer – re: the punches with no damage.
      The EMT – no EMT would tell him *not* to go to a hospital, “broken” nose, and did someone say Ear, Nose and Throat! THAT’S a bullseye, right there!

    • Boyd says:

      I was thinking that too and the the karate guy.

  89. gbrbsb says:

    Registered ear, nose and throat… Bernie, asks if it would have impact. I hope so !

  90. whonoze says:

    Which one was the EMT?

  91. A registered EMT. Huh, wow…

  92. Nef05 says:

    Registered EMT – Fogen wants him gone, for sure!!!

  93. whonoze says:

    See, you all resolved your disputes without violence! Sly Bernie.

  94. Boyd says:

    Geez , Law enforcement our #2 Job occupation behind fast food.
    No one in my family, cousins, uncles, etc is in Law enforcement.

  95. gbrbsb says:

    Did bodyguard just accompany SZ to the loo?

  96. LOL:

    “I got in a fight in middle school.”

    (B-7?, not sure.)

  97. disappointed says:

    Dang half these people know LE. Wonder if they will use there 10 on them, thinking they would be pro prosecution.

  98. Sleuth says:

    The defense is looking really disappointed, along with their client who’s probably really po’d at having to listen to all these stories about people who have been successful where he failed miserably.

  99. TashaTexas77048 says:

    No one speaking appears to be a minority. What am I missing?

  100. Bernie warned potential jurors about photos and that they’ve probably never seen anything like it before. Sounds like autopsy photos or maybe death photos?

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I hadn’t heard that. Thank you.
      That’s going to be rough for everyone. Okay, most everyone.

  101. Interesting that so many have law enforcement connections.

  102. Dave says:

    I see that Shellie’s mom is back today

  103. Rachael says:

    Oooh, loss prevention – LOL

  104. Sleuth says:

    Popazidiot has the most unusual nose, especially for a man. So, I decided to find out just what kind of nose he has.

    It does seem to match his personality of feeling superior to others, and lack of emotional maturity.

    This is what I came across at this site.

    Professor Tamir, of Ben-Gurion University in Israel, said: ‘The snub nose is a small nose sloping upwards at the tip. People with this frequently lack spiritual and physical maturity.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2013699/There-14-types-nose–yours.html#ixzz2WgoUGpzT

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for the snout analysis, Sleuth!

    • Beverly Lawson says:

      Of course, I do not know the Prof, but I somehow cannot quite believe that the nose that one is born with is indicative of character and personality….why would we even need shrinks? If the nose really Knows everything….But who knows what the nose knows? Too weird.

    • Malisha says:

      The snub nose is also unlikely to grow even when the nose-owner lies, so it is the preferred nose of inveterate liars. (Aroptentis N, Blaga RI et al., Noses and their SubOcular Significance, Journal of Prima-Facial Analysis, Vol. 352(11):355-57, July 2001).

    • Two sides to a story says:

      He looks like a Who from Whoville.

  105. YQ says:

    They must have photos we haven’t seen… could it be more evidence for the prosecution?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      no pictures of the body have ever been made available to the public even though they were provided in discovery. i suspect BDLR was referring to autopsy photos which will be graphic and disturbing to rational folks.

  106. Nef05 says:

    This conversation does not seem to bode well for Owen. Not saying that JN wouldn’t give Frye any less attention, but these questions lead me to believe she will be extraordinarily careful about who the court deems an “expert”, simply by virtue of the jurors questions about qualifications of said “experts”. (imo)

    • Nef05 says:

      “Not saying that JN wouldn’t give Frye any less attention”

      Wow, that’s a funky phrase. Meant to say, “Not saying JN *would* give Frye any less attention”. Probably should eat something, blood sugar must be low.

  107. smokeegyrl says:

    OMGosh… Did you see Fogen roll his eyes at BDLR. He looked him… up and down… yes he did…

  108. Trained Observer says:

    West looking alternately puzzled and purterbed. OK, so what else is new?

  109. Her assumption about the experts is not entirely accurate, unfortunately. In my case, the perjuring ‘expert’ was a state lab toxicology tech, and he represented himself as an ‘expert’ in clinical toxicology, even though he admitted he could not even find a certain very common drug, with a map, and had never seen it before…He was allowed to speculate as a physician, essentially.

    It was utter bullshit. There are whores in the forensic ‘expert’ arena, and it is offensive.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I have a long time friend, a brilliant writer and former paralegal, who told me that he wrote a gazillion “scripts” for “experts” to use in testimony.

      • I totally believe it. I have found some amazing stuff in this area…long, great looking CVs, only to find out that the person faked credentials or was revoked from some board but never told anyone, it’s amazing. But that ‘white coat’ effect is yet somehow mesmerizing. It’s nuts.

  110. Good lord that expert thing was a bit of a rabbit hole.

  111. Judy75201 says:

    Junior is supposedly taking care of grandmother today.

  112. smokeegyrl says:

    Stop shaking your head Fogen… BDLR is not asking you the question… grrrrrr…

  113. Malisha says:

    Something interesting about the proFogenites: they fuss and fume about certain things and totally ignore others. One doesn’t get to do that when there is a trial. After a trial, the jury goes into deliberations and guess what: if there is even one single juror who was not simply bought and paid for by the defense, there will be FACTS that cannot be ignored and “outhoused.” That’s why the proFogenites screamed so loudly once Fogen was CHARGED. Only by his never being charged in the first place was he guaranteed an outcome acceptable to them.

    Poor Fogen. He chose the wrong damn century to pull this crap. Not wise enough to realize that because he’s so consumed by his own internal world, he doesn’t notice the big world OUTSIDE. Now he’s trying to get so big that the internal world swallows up the big unfriendly disobedient outside world but there isn’t time… if he got as big as the eggplant that ate Chicago, he’d still be the defendant with no place to hide.

    • Woow! says:

      I agree with you. I hope this case shows that we have moved beyond letting people get away with killing blacks for no reason other than bigotry. The days of lynching is over.

      Those cops in Sanford should be ashamed of themselves. I do not believe the FBI did not find Trayvon’s civil rights were violated. I think someone made the decision to say that because of fear of retaliation or so called rioting and just wanted to calm everyone down due to the initial none arrest.

    • bettykath says:

      “if he got as big as the eggplant that ate Chicago, he’d still be the defendant with no place to hide.”

      lol great image, Malisha!

  114. towerflower says:

    MOM looks pissed.

  115. judge N. was telling jurors or asking about using phones tablets social media during lunch crazy 1946

    • crazy1946 says:

      I can’t believe that Judge Nelson is allowing the PJ’s to be compromised by the use of phones and un-restricted recording devices in the court room! Does anyone actually think that the Fog-diots would not use any means available to cheat their way into a “win” in this case? Wonder how long before we start to see photo’s of the PJ’s on the tree house?

      • DruDo says:

        I was watching on the WFTV site and asked the moderators if reporters and others were texting info to the defense and/or prosecution, (although I really meant to the defense), and if so, is that permitted, and the reply was “no”. I have serious doubts about that.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Omar’s treading on dangerous ground, talking about the justifiable use of deadly force, he has no evidence to present that will justify the use of any force at all. gz will be shown to be a criminal, engaged in criminal activity. For example, if you walk into a bank and point a gun at the teller, it doesn’t matter that you are not intending to rob the bank, you have committed an assault with a deadly weapon, regardless of how innocent your intentions may have been.

      So there is foggen trying to claim that he had innocent intentions, while he scared the daylights out of this kid. His innocent intentions do not matter at all, because what he was doing was a crime. Ignorance is no excuse for the law, and he was also told not to follow, or stalk and not to carry a gun or go on any patrols.

  116. crazy1946 says:

    Just as I came back on line, I caught the tail end of some thing Judge Nelson was telling the court about phones or tablets or something like that. Could anyone tell me what was actually said and who it was directed at? Thanks! Perhaps she addressed the problem that I spotted earlier? I don’t put it past any of the Fogen supporters to take photos of the potential members of the jury in an effort to intimidate or threaten them! Sorry if it sounds like I don’t trust MOM/West or any Fog-diot! Truth is, I simply don’t!

  117. Nef05 says:

    Poor West, he is just SO confused, ALL the time…

  118. Sleuth says:

    Gladys looks like Rene. They both have very masculine features.

  119. Boyd says:

    Keep E6!

  120. Malisha says:

    Usually a PJ who has been harassed by the police would be considered pro-defendant. Strangely, in this case, everything is a55backwards and as a result, someone who has been harassed by the police might turn out more likely pro-prosecution! The folks trying hardest to give Fogen a freebie-murder-card were the SPD. NOW the police force has changed because Lee had to step down for that very reason. So it’s hard to call these things in a peculiar circumstance like this; one doesn’t know what is figure and what is ground.

    • YQ says:

      I like BLDR’s approach here. He looks like he’s going to leave a lasting impression on the jurors. He’s going to be able to give an epic closing statement.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yes, malisha – that is the greatest irony of this case. it is ass-backwards. as you say, those who’ve been harassed by the fuzz will likely support the prosecution while the ‘law and order’, ‘god n country’ set support the defense — with their hard earned cash, no less.

      go figure.

  121. This trial very well could be decided on the fact that Bernie is friendly and MOM is smarmy.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Bernie is more than friendly, I think he’s got some great psychology under his belt. When he asks a question, he’s getting more than just the answer. He see’s how the pj’s relate to each other. When he asks one pj a question and then asks if everyone agrees, he can get a great deal of information. He can see who stops to think and who just nods their heads. I think this questioning period works on several different levels at once. He’s real folk, without being dopey folksy.

  122. gbrbsb says:

    Top marks to Bernie today, he is so amenable !

  123. smokeegyrl says:

    I don’t see RZj at all.. so did he get ousted?

    • disappointed says:

      I am praying like hell that he has been banned. If I never see his face again it will be to soon.

  124. When did the prosecutor catch West disease? He’s lacking the “Get on with it” button today.

  125. amsterdam1234 says:

    Bernie is good at this.

  126. gbrbsb says:

    Was he referring to the drone strikes… judge and jury from a government approved joystick !

  127. towerflower says:

    I’m getting mad at the Channel 6 moderator. They are only letting proZ comments getting through. When you try and counter a message with known facts they don’t print it.

  128. smokeegyrl says:

    I love that question… Do you have the right to take the law into your own hands?

    • Ty Flair says:

      That would of been a hard question for me,because I seen a couple once and the man was hitting on her,so I went over there and start hitting on him. He was arrested and the lady told be thank you she was tired going threw this. What fogen did was wrong and he know that. He took the law in his own hand to do evil.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I almost did the same thing but I didn’t beat up on the man, but I did yell at the man to stop and grabbed the woman and put her in the car with me and took her to the nearest police station.

  129. Woow! says:

    Gladys skin tone is dark and she has the nerve to be racist!! ughh

    • smokeegyrl says:

      I also have family members who skin tone are dark and very discriminative and are LE.

    • willisnewton says:

      Intolerance knows no color race or creed. It’s just that a privileged class has more to gain from maintaining power by spreading this intolerance into the fabric of everyday life, while the minority individual is only filling them self.

      • willisnewton says:

        Only fooling themselves . Typo

        Also this was supposed to be in reply to a comment about Gladys Z’s alleged prejudice against blacks, despite her own racial heritage.

    • Ms.X says:

      That why she wouldn’t let the kids go outside: She didn’t want them to get dark. There are many people who have been polluted by racism/colorism. Now people might use skin cancer as an excuse, but many will come out and tell you that they don’t want to get dark/er. This is true of many races & ethnicities.

    • Girlp says:

      I do not say this to overgeneralize(something I strive not to do) but across Central and South America including people who are dark skinned are encouraged to marry to have lighter skinned children. I remember seeing a woman from Honduras who’s had Afrocentric features and dark skin, her father rejected her thankfully she saw beauty in herself and in her dance she was a beautiful woman…very sad when you see something like that. IMO Gladys’s has rejected her ancestry not by marrying a White man it’s because she has the belief that being dark skinned and (possibly) having African DNA is something to be ashamed of…she should be proud of this, she is throwing away so much rich and beautiful culture.
      I also have a friend from Peru (of Castilian and German ancestry) who say’s Peruvians can be very prejudice; I have never seen that in her and her parents were very nice people.

    • Two sides to a story says:


      • yep, self hate and she instilled that hate into her kids. gross.
        she shoulda got therapy!

        BUT, there’s also the rumor that the kids are actually not her bio kids, but that of her sister and she adopted or took in as her’s and SR. zimm. and it’s not clear if zimSR is really their bio dad.. i’d sure like to see their birth certificate!

        btw, that woman today is NOT the woman i’ve always thought was his mother either.. remember there’s another pic out there ( i have it somewhere and i’m gonna post it on my page later.) of who’s been accused of being their mother. she was a lot more attractive IMO too.. ummm this is getting really weird..

  130. Sleuth says:

    This juror’s unfortunate experience with the police sounds like Mary Davis’s grandson experience.

    I wonder if these cops are of the SPD.

  131. Malisha says:

    We’ve been wondering about what would happen if there was ONE proFogen stealth juror and so forth and so on, thinking that the proFogenite would prevent a conviction no matter what happened, as if his/her life depended upon it. Let’s look at the more probable situation, where there is — say — only one NORMAL person on the jury. Five out of six of the jurors, let’s say, are so inalterably proFogenite that when they get into deliberations, they fuss and fuss and fuss and fuss and go completely bonkers and insist innocent innocent not guilty not not not NOT guilty. What happens then with the one normal?

    That one normal will have heard the evidence! ALL of it that BDLR, whose reputation is on the line, can present. ALL of it that Corey, whose reputation is on the line even more, has seen and used to draw up the charges for which she was viciously attacked. The one normal will know beyond ANY doubt that Fogen profiled, chased down and killed Trayvon Martin with a depraved mind and with ill will and malice. The one normal will not be able to accept giving Fogen a blessing for this murder; white, black or Afro-shmafro-Peruvian-Schmooveyan, that normal person will not agree to nullify his or her own intelligence and moral standing in a gigantic public display of anti-justice sewage. That one normal will preserve his or her wholeness and humanity against the encroachment of racism and lynch-mob-support-team mentality and that person will NOT do anything that will make him or her have to stand up and admit such a disgraceful humiliation in front of the world when they poll the jury. Not gonna happen.

    I would put the odds at 99 to 1 that there is a way around this simple fact. It is the year 2013. More people, even in Florida, are closer to normal than Rene Stutzman and Sean Hannity than one-sixth of the population. We do still have a good number of decent Americans in this country. It’s not just a silly phrase.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Coming from the UK where juries are anonymous for life, basically chosen from that day’s jury pool out of a hat, and where evidence is only disclosed during trial and then only what the Judge permits, I am totally perplexed, because, if in the US, the greatest democracy in the world as Bernie keeps repeating, the citizens as I see active here don’t trust their own system why oh why don’t they change it and not just keep pointing out how biased it is? Or perhaps even more appropriate, why vote for representatives who would introduce the “sunshine” policy in the first place or why was it not challenged it when they did ?

      I can’t help it but I stand incredulous considering that in the UK I have never heard of a “stealth” juror, never seen attorneys of both sides vying to get in “jurors” favouring their side of the story, etc.

      In the UK there have of course been verdicts overturned as unsafe etc. but to my knowledge not one because of jury bias, more to do with the police not disclosing or manipulating the evidence, or because of dodgy experts. And the cost of this kind of jury selection must be huge, so that the risk of “justice” becoming exclusive to the rich would seem IMO very real.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        gbrbsb — a huge factor in this equation is that THIS IS FLORIDA. the arias trial (which i did not watch) may have been a full on drama fest, but still no juror was ‘scared’.

        while being a juror in a mafia case has legitimate room for fear and serious precautions are taken, this case has made people absolutely batty. i think the reasons for it are largely due to the fact that it is florida, with it’s wacky gun laws, ‘sunshine’ laws, and race issues. unlike the UK, we are of course a republic of states who have enormous autonomy within each jurisdiction. were this case not in florida (or some equally wacky judicial state) we would not be seeing this.

        people get to choose in which state to reside, participate democratically in how their state laws are enacted or pick up and move if they decide they hate their state. we kind of have to assume that the people of florida are getting exactly what they want, else it would not be happening.

        it’s a head scratcher, i know :/

        • gbrbsb says:

          First having just read about it above, I hope you and your family are all perfectly ok and that your nasty accident passes into memory as a lucky escape.

          I get you loud and clear. I think you summed it up beautifully for me when you say “we have to assume that the people of Florida are getting exactly what they want”. Yes, you reap what you sew, and I suppose it’s just human to then complain so much about the unfairness of it all.

          You are a teeny weeny bit out on the UK though. We are as I know you know four distinct nations and if the soon coming Scottish referendum is a “Yes” you could be hearing “… and then there was three!”. We share many laws but there are others completely different as each has some autonomy through local parliaments, especially the Scots who have many laws different to the rest.

          Stay safe. : – )

          • fauxmccoy says:


            thank you for your well wishes. if i said UK, i should have said great britain. i’m actually quite familiar with history of the region. i assumed that the units making up the UK had variances, but that within great britain, it is not separated into states as we have, each with their own constitutions.

          • gbrbsb says:

            I was just having a friendly dig Faux, but FYI, we are four countries, three (not included England) have devolved administrations with varying powers, two through assemblies, one through its own parliament (Scotland).

            Glad to see you are ok.https://widgets.wp.com/notes/?v=20130619#

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Your system is far superior IMHO. I get sick of this conservative rhetoric about best system in the world. It’s broken, it needs modification. Of course, you can’t judge how it works in other states when you’re watching FL.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Sorry for my rant, TSTAS, but it actually pains me to see how many on the blog don’t trust the system which IMO makes a trial look pointless at best and a circus or farce at worst more than the serious affair that it is. And it’s not only on this blog. I often have a nosey around TL’s “GZ forums” to see what they are up to and the distrust is exactly the same… except from the GZ side! But you are right, I should not have judged the whole US system by Florida which is a one off, or at least one of a few !

          And don’t get me wrong, I have thoroughly enjoyed the rush of “selecting” the jury, noting who would be “good” or “bad”, along with the rest of you, it is enthralling and exciting! But would I like the system here, a very big NO.

          Of course, our system is not perfect and we have appeals, quashed verdicts, and retrials too, (mainly due to new evidence or dodgy evidence or experts, and occasionally when it is clear a jury could not have reached a guilty verdict based on the evidence before them but never the inverse). We also have “perverse” verdicts whereby a jury finds innocent someone who has clearly committed a crime and the judge has advised them to that effect, like the man who grew MJ to help his wife with MS, and jury nullification too when a jury decides that to follow the law would lead to an unjust verdict… people action at its best! But although we may complain about sentencing or that the rich have access to better lawyers, from what I see we intrinsically trust our system and I certainly wouldn’t change it except for a tribunal type system, if at all.

      • I’d agree with you about the sunshine law if it weren’t for the rules lawyers take an oath to follow.
        Omar is violating these rules by submitting all those bogus motions with his purposeful misrepresentation of the evidence he’s mentioning.
        He is the problem, not the sunshine rules. i wouldn’t mind if he makes a few statements claiming his client’s innocence- without all those lies stated as facts. and he’d be well within his rights and rules.

        but He shouldn’t be talking about the evidence, he shouldn’t be begging for money and he shouldn’t be encouraging and rewarding the idiots who are actively doxing DD and witness intimidation and trying to poison the jury.
        (if he wasn’t trying to influence the jury pool he would’ve demanded to have a change of venue, right?)

        all these issues are caused by these unethical lawyers not because of the sunshine rules. you can imagine the ability to see the evidence in criminal cases could be beneficial in some circumstances by some people.
        so i just don’t think the law is bad in that respect, it just becomes a problem when officers of the court abuse and misuse it.

        omara and west should be made to answer to these actions.. but that probably won’t happen, but if it does it won’t happen until after zimm is locked up and forgotten.

      • pat deadder says:

        gbrbsb Same in Canada.

  132. LOL!

    Listen to Bernie…”did you go chasing after him”.

  133. Deborah Moore says:

    Confession here, I’m not keeping notes like some of the better people here are. So, may I ask, which pj just said there was a previous violent situation that they would not be able to set aside, so I’m guessing that….
    Can someone tell me which pj that is?

  134. disappointed says:

    West wanted to object to BDLR asking if he chased after them!

  135. parrot says:

    The police didn’t even investigate… hmmm

  136. Court is back in session, and there is a sound issue at wildabouttrial. They are saying to refresh…

    • truthseeker66 says:

      screen is frozen with image of fogen…on NBC link I get black screen. I’m having a bad hump day:(

      • Trained Observer says:

        Still black screen for me at 2:25 … too bad, … visual and sound had been so good all morn.

  137. whonoze says:

    WFTW reported earlier that the PJ who was excused, had his name leaked, and came back to the courthouse to ‘warn the other PJs what they were getting in for’ has retained a lawyer and is planning to sue MOM for defamation.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I hope that gets some coverage…further than this site.

    • Beverly Lawson says:

      What do you think would be defamatory for getting dismissed? Were there specific comments?

      • whonoze says:

        MOM made press conference comments about “stealth jurors.”

      • gbrbsb says:

        It was JN who let the genie out of the bag as giving website and date of comment with what we already knew of the juror (musician) was fulminating… IIRC the press knew who he was before MOM, and even talk left had sussed it out before he spoke too.

      • Yorazigo says:

        But MOM was interviewed and publicly gave pj’s name. Seems like big difference between knowing or figuring it out and telling it out.

  138. Nef05 says:

    Good afternoon everyone. Thanks for the for the morning’s comments. They are very helpful in being able to catch up on what’s going on.

  139. Dave says:

    I see that the female defense lawyer has worn a black suit two days in a row. I wonder wheter she got negative feedback on the blue one.

  140. smokeegyrl says:

    ya think Hirschhorn is giving Fogen some tips about how to be a good defendant?

  141. truthseeker66 says:

    just tuning in are they on lunch break? wildabouttrial site just shows grafitti?

  142. disappointed says:

    When will the jury be sequestered? The night before trial or do they show up the first day of trial with all of their belongings?

  143. disappointed says:

    I do not trust Fogen’s family at all. I think they would out PJs. They do not care who they hurt. They only want to save face. jmo

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree with you on that. People keep talking about the safety of the jury if he is “acquitted”. Given GZ’s family, I am worried about them if he is convicted. They would out those jurors in a minute.

      • bettykath says:

        The time to out the fair jurors is before they are seated. Wasn’t one of the jurors excused b/c W identified her place of employment?

        Anyone who could really believe that all those Black organizations are racist is capable of anything. If papa Z took pictures, his phone should be confiscated and he should be charged with contempt of court. A contempt charge isn’t likely to happen b/c his poor innocent babe is charged, but he should be.

      • Ms.X says:

        Is there no legal recourse if they do something like that? gz is suing MS/NBC for slander. If anyone should be sued for slander its Omara for assassinating the character of Trayvon.

  144. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — would you be wanting or needing my transcript for voir dire? let me know, because although i would be happy to forward, i would need to clean up the abbreviations etc. that i used. just let me know.

  145. ay2z says:

    Remember the day 1 PJ, young guy with shorts and tank top that had ‘OBEY’ written on it? Was he outted by one of the lawyers with a question about what was on hit T shirt?

    Hardly he could leave the courtroom without being noticed, unless the label was tiny. Essentially outed.

    Sr. Zim would have his sights on a few of those pj’s, not to mention them now. He might have been doing some of his own investigating under cover behind the bar.

    • Sleuth says:


      Yes, The Wiester did out this pj and told him to wear a jacket the next time.

      All the some disagree with me, I hope that pj that removed from the courthouse last Friday, sues the pants off them.

      Even if he lied about having a FB account, (he was wrong for that) they had no business putting his name out there, especially AFTER the judge had promised the pj’s anonymity.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        He claims he forgot he posted about the case on with his Facebook. THe post actually appeared in a newstream that uses FB to sign in. The court should have protected him even though he was dismissed and OM should be sanctioned.

      • Sleuth says:


        I totally agree, especially when it was something he protested well over a year ago.

        Seems like a lot of the jp’s have FB accounts, especially the younger ones. I don’t see the big darn deal in having a FB account.

        Afterall, E7 did say he could judge fairly.

      • Sleuth says:


        Ooops! I meant to say posted, not protested.

    • Lynn says:

      Obeyclothing. com
      I see alot of this at the mall here in North Florida. Based out of LA.

  146. Sleuth says:

    Okay folks……….my bad.

    The older couple I mentioned earlier, Jack and Susan Cashill are from the “Show Me” state, Missouri, and not California.

    Just found a website for Jack, in which he’s written a piece on Joonya Zee.


    Get the impression these folks are pro defense.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sleuth~ I just read that link you provided. YEP! He’s Pro-Z. The book he’s writing is called “If I Had A Son.” What. An. Idiot.


    • Sleuth says:

      Cielo, you think Jack helped Popszidiot write his book?

      • cielo62 says:

        Sleuth~ I haven’t wasted my money on PopZidiot’s book so I don’t know. But I doubt it. Papa Z doesn’t strike me as the kind to actually FIND someone who could write. Someone else suggested it was Sundance Cracker. THAT I would believe!


    • Unabogie says:

      FYI, Jack Cashill is a birther.


    • bettykath says:

      I thought what he wrote was a fair writing of jr.’s press conference. All the opinion’s were those of jr. Before condemning him to the pro-fogen file, I’d want to know if he written anything else, in particular, about anything from the discovery dumps.

      The above was my first reaction to the article. Then I went to his home page. This guy really likes “spanking” – jr spanking the media, the appellate court spanking the judge. Turns out he’s written several articles and ALL of them are pro-Z. He believes every word of fogen even when the discovery materials contradict him. You’re right. He’s a zidiot.

  147. bettykath says:

    Comment about questioning: “Does everyone agree?” expected answer is yes and if you don’t agree you don’t have to do anything and it probably won’t be caught. If you really want to know if someone doesn’t agree, then the question should be “Does anyone not agree?” This forces the disagree r to say or do something to answer the question. Which way the question is asked depends on the real objective of the question.

  148. ay2z says:

    Hope the deputy confiscated sr. zim’s bat phone, or whatever he was caught with.

  149. ladystclaire says:

    After seeing Gladys in court this morning, I can understand why she didn’t want to be shown on camera and, it wasn’t because of any threats either. these people need to quit their lying about receiving death threats because, it isn’t true and, they should be made to prove that they have received threats.

    Their lies concerning threats was just another one of their ploys, to receive donations from the dumbest of the dumb racist, who are more than likely receiving food stamps.

    To sum it all up, this is a very dysfunctional family and, they are also a LYING family! instead of the words show me the money, I say to this family, SHOW ME THE THREATS.

    • MollyK says:

      I didn’t see the coverage. Why does Gladys not want to be shown on camera?

      I agree that the death threat thing is ridiculous.

      • ay2z says:

        That was from her earlier national tv interviews, where she appeared in shadow. She can’t hide in here. Doesnt’ look like she’s wearing any body armour, maybe Gracie is 😉

      • ladystclaire says:

        They were shown on HLN a little while ago and, of course Robbie the Racist, had to weigh in with a statement on their behalf. he wrote that they have not been seen at any of the other hearings because of the threats (not) they have been receiving.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Cielo – Big Snort! Thanks for that. 🙂

    • Sleuth says:


      Back in April 2012 during the first bond hearing, She-lie admitted to BDLR that the alleged “hate mail” they received did not contained threats of bodily harm, nor did they report alleged threats to law enforcement.

      BDLR ordered her to turn over the letters/mail to the State. So I’m guessing it should be a part of the evidence.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sleuth~ The “threatening mail” was probably from bill collectors.


      • ladystclaire says:

        I am speaking of the Zimmerman Sr’s as well as Grace and Robbie the Racist. I do NOT believe that this entire family has been receiving threats of any kind. how can you send someone a threat, if you don’t know an address or if you don’t know a phone number for them? I’m sticking with they are lying in order to receive donations.

      • Sleuth says:


        And that’s why they need to change the SYG law. Folk like them perceive everything as a threat.

      • ladystclaire says:

        One more thing, this woman lied under oath about their finances so, why would anyone believe her when she says they received threats?

        That entire family consist of certified racist liars!

      • parrot says:

        @Cielo hahahaha!

  150. bettykath says:

    I like this approach. The attorney’s get to see the whole picture before striking. BDLR, after the first questions on demographics seems to be asking specific pjs questions. Which ones get asked these questions is not random. He knows which ones he wants more info from. He didn’t ask many questions of the man from Mexico who has concerns about privacy and isn’t asking him followup questions b/c BDLR already knows enough.

  151. While Mark O’Mara searches for a lunch of Pepto Bismol, we are going to take a quick run on the bike, and we will be back.

  152. smokeegyrl says:

    Vinnie Politan ‏@VinniePolitan 1m
    What do #TrayvonMartin’s parents think happened? I sit down w/ Tracy Martin to find out. 2-night @HLNAfterDark special begins tonight 10pm

  153. diary73 says:

    It is a great Juneteenth indeed. Very close to Sanford. A very historical Juneteenth for me! My kids just think I am obsessed. They don’t realize that we are living history here. Trayvon Martin’s name has been stamped into tomorrow’s history books!

  154. concernedczen says:

    Professor, please elaborate on what will happen to the jurors who have been arrested or have criminal records. Will that be cause to dismiss them?

  155. ay2z says:

    Did anyone catch Hirshorn’s sarcastic eyebrow raising, eyeball rolling, head toss back as Bernie asked (sometime around the criminal experiences questioning) if they would hold it against the state and would they hold it against the defendant getting a fair trial? Right to the cameras.

    Unprofessional slap from the defense table, and he’s not even counsel for the defendant, and he does this, but it was a good camera op and point (errr…. emotional sarcasm,…bias… opinion…. made).

  156. Happy Juneteenth, everyone!

  157. Bernie is using a mixture of one-at-a-time voir dire as to the entire group and then switched to what we used to call the Donahue Method after the TV host Phil Donahue.

    We would never have been allowed to conduct a classroom style multiple-hour education of the panel regarding legal principles as Bernie is doing.

    Judges get to instruct on the law, not lawyers.

    Voir dire means to question.

    This is a wonderful opportunity for Bernie to build rapport, trust and respect with this jury as well as develop the legal foundation for his theory of the case.

    He’s making the most of it.

  158. Sleuth says:

    I saw a couple on the news who said they have been following this case since day one. They say are from the west coast, and said they loaded up their RV and headed to Sanford. They also said they are writing a book about the trial.

    • chi1224 says:

      How do they feel about the case?

      • Sleuth says:

        They said they found the case to be fascinating, and one of great public interest. They heard a lot of people complaining that it was taking too long to get to trial.

        They went on to say everybody should be patient, wait for all for all the evidence to come in before rendering a judgement. They also made reference to Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias trials.

        They appeared be a couple in their 60’s. The husband was holding a book in his hand, I couldn’t see the title.

      • Sleuth says:


        I was LOL! too. These people have got a lot of nerve. That’s what I say, “Get in line behind the rest of us”.

        I have learned more about the facts of this case from Professor and you guys than I will ever learn from people with an agenda.

        Just ticked me off! All these folks writing books but have the nerve to criticize the Fulton/Martin family about setting up a foundation to help other families in similar situations.

        • cielo62 says:

          Sleuth~ I feel the same way. This has been an amazing learning experience, intellectually. It’s also been an emotional investment, so unlike a statistic of “another murder.” I’ve put on more different shoes and walked more miles than I have with any other endeavor. And THEY want to write a book? Puh-LEEZE!


    • cielo62 says:

      Sleuth~ LOL! They can get in line behind US! And we’ve got better information! 😉


    • Trained Observer says:

      Let me guess: Gun rights advocates and staunch Fogen defenders? Are they from California or west coast of Florida?

      • Sleuth says:

        @Trained Observer

        Hey Trained Observer! Been looking for you to thank you for the list you put together.

        They are from the west coast, as in California. They didn’t really state a position, but I just got the impression they were writers of some sort.

        I just find it odd that someone would travel from so far for this trial if they did not have a vested interest in the outcome of this case. They said they have been on the road for 5 months.

        OH! I just remembered their name. Jack and Susan Cashill or Caskill. I think they said they sat in on the jury selection.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Sleuth – I believe I saw them during the death penalty phase of Arias, on HLN. Or, another couple is touring the country, going to places with high-profile trials, in their RV…

      • Sleuth says:


        You’re right! I knew they looked familiar. Same with their names.

  159. concernedczen says:

    Bernie is really good with how he talks to the jury. Very good rapport and in taking command of the “class”

  160. Trained Observer says:

    If Fogen Senior takes his fam out to lunch, the tab could hefty. Do you think he tips 20 percent?

  161. lurker says:

    Jury seems to have gotten pretty comfortable with sharing with Bernie. Interesting to see if O’Mara/West are able to maintain that openness with them.

  162. Court is in recess for lunch until 1:45 pm EDT.

  163. Nellie Nell says:

    Jury is full of criminals….. LOL

  164. smokeegyrl says:

    h7 is a goner thank you thank you

  165. willisnewton says:

    The bailiff just walked over to RZ sr and spoke with/ reprimanded him over something. Did anyone else catch that ? Hmmm was dad taking pics w his phone or what?

  166. Deborah Moore says:

    I’m going to start calling M O M, “Pruneface”.

    • Malisha says:

      I’m telling you O’Mara needs his kidneys checked.

    • chi1224 says:

      He does have a sniveling prune-face

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Both he and West have looks such that they could have been cast as villians in a Batman show.

    • Beverly Lawson says:

      Oh, at first I thought you were talking about GZ’s mother;) There really is not anything going on to be very pleased about, however. They all would rather be someplace else, I imagine. During the OJ trial, the only one who ever looked abit happy was Marsha Clark who went on to make millions, I think. Cochran treated it all like a movie drama; brings out weirdness, I’d say.

  167. gbrbsb says:

    That’s a very british term, I thought, “awfully” !

  168. Sleuth says:

    Mr. Crump is reporting to the media, this is a very emotional day for the Fulton/Martin family.

  169. aussie says:

    What’s going to happen first?

    GZ has a medical emergency , an attack of some sort, and proceedings have to be delayed?

    GZ has a mental emergency and creates an outburst of some sort?

    GZ falls visibly and undeniably asleep?

    • cielo62 says:

      aussie~ The last 2 won’t stop the proceedings, but sure would be as funny as hell to see!


    • Tzar says:

      GZ has a medical emergency , an attack of some sort, and proceedings have to be delayed?

      GZ has a mental emergency and creates an outburst of some sort?

      that’s a no go ace! The Fogen does not hospitals

    • willisnewton says:

      My prediction is that GZ hears prosecutions evidence and takes it in the lam. Gets maybe 100 miles, is caught with weapon and ten pizzas. Court case continues with guilty plea.

    • Nef05 says:

      I think West is going to lose it. I think he’ll do something stupid, BDLR will object, JN will sustain, West will argue and lose it.

      He’s come so, so very close – I’m convinced he will dive face first over the line as he becomes more and more frustrated by this unwinnable case and his own impairment, whatever that may be.

  170. BDLR is awfully good, and Fred is amazed, saying, “They don’t let you do this, in Washington.”

  171. smokeegyrl says:

    See that older grey haired man like right behind BDLR… he has been in the court from day one. Does anyone know who he is or what he does? I’m just curious. I think he works for the court.

  172. Tzar says:

    Bernie has a good smile on him
    his eyebrows furrow in that friendly upside down V formation
    it makes him appear friendly

  173. Sleuth says:

    What’s so freekin’ funny to Gladys?

    • Tzar says:

      get out of my head

    • Woow! says:

      Which female is Glady’s and are you referring to Fogen’s mother?

      • Trained Observer says:

        The gum-chewing thinner one is mom. The gum-chewing hefty one is Fogen’s sister, from taped jailhouse phone call fame. .

      • Sleuth says:


        In the first row of gallery. She’s dressed in gray suit, seated between Sr. and daughter, Gracie who was seated by the bodyguard. They’re all wearing gray, I think.

      • Woow! says:

        Thanks guys. I have not been able to watch. Just popping in to read comments while I have a moment. I’m waiting to see what birthed that murderer.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        What we thought was the bodyguard I believe is the same big friend in Fogen’s old MySpace picture. THe press is saying he wears a family tag in the courtroom.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Suspect she’s a dominatrix … has been leading Senior around by the nose (and other parts) for decades. Likely abused her loser kids … and look how at least two of them turned out.

      • Lynn says:

        What mom doesn’t let their kid play with neighborhood kids? She’s a dictator.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Bigots. My ex was not allowed to play with the neighborhood Mexican kids as a kid. Mom was a Southern belle from Little Rock. She hated me too, for different reasons.

  174. Bernie is doing a great job of establishing a foundation to dissemble O’Mara’s false narrative with which O’Mara hoped to win the case in the court of public opinion.

    He’s focusing their attention on opinions.

    • RobertSF says:

      Is O’Mara not able to object during this part of the proceedings? I thought he would over some of BDLR’s repetitive questions.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      I think he is doing an awesome job. I noticed when he was mentioning the CSI and the way West looked at him. It touched a nerve.

      • GirlP says:

        I am so happy he addressed the CSI series and Law and Order series (all entertainment in this area) many people think this is real because they use consultants without the understanding that the processes they use are either completely made up with consultants used to make it look realistic or simulating processes and techniques (equipment) that may be far into the future.

    • Malisha says:

      Give it to them near and far!
      We’ve got goosebumps watching YOU!
      ‘F you need cheering, hear from ME!
      Here’s to you: with eagles soar!
      Working up to overdrive!
      Dismantling the Fogen Fix!
      Making Fogen’s loaf un-leaven!
      GO on, man — I can hardly WAIT!!!

      YAY Bernie! YAY YAY YAYYYYYYYY!! 😀

  175. Sleuth says:

    I wonder if they will be asked if they personally know the defendant, i.e. worked with him, went to school with etc.

    • Tzar says:

      I think that was already done earlier

    • Malisha says:

      Q: Have you ever been chased and detained by the defendant?

      Q: Have you ever been bullied and slandered by the defendant?

      Q: Have you ever been — rhymes with “foe-riled” by the defendant?

      Q: Has the defendant ever called the police on you?

      Q: Has the defendant ever reneged on his debts to you?

      Q: Has the defendant ever lorded it over you to show you how inferior you were, and then pretended it was just a joke?

      Q: Has the defendant ever assaulted you or called you a punk or an a55hole or exhibited road rage toward you or accused you of stealing from him?

      Q: Has the defendant’s wife ever lied to you?

      Q: OK then I take it that you do not know the defendant?

  176. FactsFirst says:

    Geez… fogen sister back is just as WIDE as his bodygaurds…

  177. chi1224 says:

    Here is what scares me– I think the reality is every single person in that pool came in with an opinion. They aren’t admitting it, but they already have an opinion. This case is just too big, and the info has been all over Florida for a long time.

    • Dave says:

      The big question is whether they are open to changing that opinion if the evience warrants it.

    • Malisha says:

      THere is a process.
      BDLR is good at that process.
      Judge Nelson knows how to run and control that process.
      O’Mara and West are disadvantaged in that process.
      And the PROCESS is the MESSAGE.
      The jurors are only the messengers.
      I’m ready to hear this now. Now I’m ready.

    • Trained Observer says:


    • RobertSF says:

      Many jurors report after their cases that they felt a sense of duty that kept them on the straight and narrow.

      • Ms.X says:

        Yes, but there are times they suspend their common sense due to their interpretation of instructions or the law. Casey Anthony jurors said “I thought she was guilty, but was given instructions that prevented me from finding her guilty.” There was also a case in Galveston, TX. It involved millionaire (Dupont heir) Robert Durst, who cut up his next door neighbor (an old man) and threw his body parts into Galveston Bay. He was found not guilty as well. Personally, it would be near impossible for me to find someone who took the time and effort to cut up a human body not guilty. The jurors on the Casey Anthony case, the ones who gave interviews, weren’t very swift. Some of them grossly misinterpreted the instructions/law. A majority of the Miss America contestants didn’t know the name of the Vice President of the United States. Further, if I were the prosecution, I would stop referring to myself as “the state,” knowing there is an anti-government sentiment very prevalent in FL. They elected criminal Rick Scott for their Gov. The Tea Party is alive & well in FL & these are gz’s people. As the prosecution, I wouldn’t take anything for granted and would spell everything out like I was explaining it to a 5th grader.

    • cielo62 says:

      chil~ everybody has an opinion. The POINT is to LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE. That is why they question so thoroughly, to find open minded people willing to look at and question their opinion. I do that every day in class with my students. I have an opinion of each child’s abilities and character and each day, I question it to be as fair as I can be. THAT is what they are looking for.


      • fauxmccoy says:

        i thought that the pool was very open and relaxed today – probably a lot to do with BDLR’s approach. i still wish he would talk a bit less and listen a whole lot more.

      • but did some of these jurors lie by saying they didn’t have an opinion?
        i think that’s an issue with their intentions. why would you lie to get on a jury?
        especially in a case like this where such aggressive attempts are made to find the liars, they have to work EXTRA hard not to be found out!

  178. Sleuth says:

    I like this set up they’re using today.

    The confessed murderer’s skin complexion appears to be getting lighter and lighter. Is it the cameras or fade cream he might be using to distance himself from his African roots?

    He looks like a ghost.

  179. gbrbsb says:

    Good question, how do you make sure opinions are not brought in to a verdict ?

  180. Tzar says:

    BDLR: “Everybody agree that attorneys sometimes have bias…”

    MOM: Objection!!!

  181. smokeegyrl says:

    Don’t tell Judge Judy she is not a real Judge..lmao..

  182. Leisa says:

    Wow. mom does not want that guy!

  183. Sleuth says:

    Y’all think BDLR will mention the show “Criminal Minds”?

  184. E-6 asked a great question about circumstantial evidence.

  185. Deborah Moore says:

    So, why does M O M look so miserable at this time?

  186. gbrbsb says:

    “Hill Street Blues”, was surely was more realistic than both “L&O” & CSI ?

    • Malisha says:

      My friend who was a cop for 30 years said the only TV cop show that was anything near realistic was “Barney Miller.” But he died before “THE WIRE” was produced. Wonder what he would have said to that one (several LE folks I know how say it is pretty damned realistic and they hate it).

      • gbrbsb says:

        I’m sure it was broadcast over here but I never saw it only heard about it. IMBW but I thought they were not separate episodes and more a series and I have difficulty following anything like that due to time limitations.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I like getting TV shows on DVD long after they’re done and watch as many in a row as I like without interruption. They’re much more interesting that way.

  187. gbrbsb says:

    Way to go Bernie, “circumstantial evidence just as good as direct evidence”… love it !

    • groans says:

      And quite often, better. (But Bernie didn’t “go there”….)

      • gbrbsb says:

        Oh but he did go there, groans, at least in what I meant or as I understood it because he gave a clear explanation of what it was and methinks that is all important to this trial. Otherwise you totally lost me !

  188. This is the standard prosecution 101 explanation of circumstantial evidence, but Bernie is a story-teller . . . and charming.

  189. Sleuth says:

    Yesterday, some media outlet called The Wiester out for referring to the potential juror phase as “A Circus”.

  190. Cookie crumbs. A born story teller.

  191. SearchingMind says:

    Professor, Bernie is going professorial on the issue of direct- and circumstantial evidence. And he is having a good time doing it.

  192. chi1224 says:

    Does the prosecution have a jury consultant?

  193. Sleuth says:

    BDLR is not liking this guy.

    I don’t think he liked his answer about being bias about clothing. G63 doesn’t think clothing should have anything to do with the case.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      probably not Fogen either, cuz that tie and suit jacket doesn’t not go with each other.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i think that bernie is directing specific concerns to individuals who concern him – trying to elicit a response for determination purposes. every time he called on an individual, i would refer to my notes of how they had answered his previous questions and i could sense there was a reason he was doing this.

      • Sleuth says:

        I think BDLR was feeling him out about “Hoodies”.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        You can see that Bernie is no newbie at jury selection, he’s a well seasoned pro, and so is his team. MOM’s jury selection expert will probably just barely be able to keep MOM from falling too far behind.

        Unfortunately for MOM, there will be no experts who can fashion the evidence in his favor. I did here Bernie ask a question about, if the jurors understood how cell phones used cell towers to transmit calls. That’s an indication that there may be some position data given at trial.

  194. O’Mara looks furious, somehow, as BDLR goes through various jurors in front of the group, asking specific questions.

    • lurker says:

      He is saying that circumstantial and direct evidence both count. Quite sure that the defense doesn’t like that.

  195. smokeegyrl says:

    Fogen’s breathing has picked up. It is really noticeable.

  196. gbrbsb says:

    A sort of “Sympathy”, i.e. mitigation, is what the judge does upon sentencing I presume.

  197. lurker says:

    Bernie is teaching. Break it down!

  198. Bernie is teaching and building credibility with the jury.

    • chi1224 says:

      I think he is doing a good job. To me he is a likeable guy.
      O’Mara and West…. not so much.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yup – the rapport he is building with them is real. o’mara’s will be noticeably a put on, i predict. i really like the teaching aspect and seeking personal involvement. you can see that he has already done an excellent job of associating juror numbers to individuals – only needing his cheat sheet on occasion. that’s impressive to me.

  199. Leisa says:

    I was thinking, her shoulders look as wide as her brother’s.

  200. groans says:

    And is that Gracie sitting with the killer’s parents? If so, she might be larger than the killer. Hmmmm…..

    (I know that might be ugly, but I was just surprised for some reason.)

  201. Dave says:

    Is that huge guy related to the killer?

  202. Court resumes at 11:40 am EDT

  203. groans says:

    Is Shellie there today? I didn’t see her, but I feel all turned around, like the tables are.

  204. K-95 is a leader and potential foreperson. She owned and operated her own company for many years.

  205. Operacarla says:

    Is that Renee Stutzman in white with nametags around her neck?

  206. diary73 says:

    Thank you all for keeping the commentary going. Just of off the cruise ship. Been out of the loop. Catching up now. I plan to visit Sanford tomorrow when we get to Orlando. If anyone is in the area, let me know.