Leaders, Tweeners and Followers: A Guide to Jury Selection

Sunday, June 16, 2013

Good morning and happy Father’s Day to all you dads:

This article supplements my post yesterday: Zimmerman trial and the strategic use of peremptory challenges UPDATED

I used a simple three-part classification method during jury selection to decide how to use my peremptory challenges. I do not claim to have invented this method. Many lawyers use it or something similar to it. I had lots of success with it and recommend that we use it to evaluate the potential jurors (PJs).

The three categories are: leaders, followers and tweeners.


Leaders are generally, but not always, well-educated professional people with lots of life-experience. They are self-confident, comfortable in their own skin and good at organizing and managing other people. These folks usually are selected to serve as the foreperson of the jury. They know how to create consensus without arrogantly telling people how they should vote. They can be male or female, conservative or liberal, and belong to any race or ethnicity.

RULE: If you are not certain that a PJ in this category is going to accept your theory of the case, use a peremptory to excuse the person.


I do not believe I have to explain who is in this category. They are likely to go along with the majority and not hold out against the majority view. Do not expect them to cause a hung jury. These people respect authority figures and are good at following orders.

RULE: Do not use a peremptory challenge against a follower unless you are satisfied with the tweeners in the box and want to use it to create an open seat on the jury so that a leader you want to have on the jury can move into the box and replace the follower.

Note: Sometimes you have to use more than one peremptory to move the leader you want into the box.


Tweeners are in between the leaders and the followers. They may be the most intelligent PJs but prefer playing a supporting role to serving as the foreperson. They prefer thinking before acting and take pride in making well-informed decisions. I looked for people willing to consider my theory of the case and seriously committed to the process of examining and considering all of the evidence.

With rare exceptions, I had a theory of the case supported by evidence which, if believed by the jury, would support a verdict of not guilty.

RULE: Tweeners help the foreperson make the right decision by assuring due process.

As we continue to watch the jury selection process, classify the PJs into one of the three categories. Do this from the prosecution’s perspective and then do it from the defense perspective. Performing this exercise will bring jury selection to life and deepen your understanding of what is going on.


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415 Responses to Leaders, Tweeners and Followers: A Guide to Jury Selection

  1. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    SANFORD, Fla. — Within days of becoming the police chief in this small city outside Orlando, Cecil E. Smith began to see clearly the scope of the challenges he faced.

    There were grumblings within the Police Department’s ranks: at least one supervisor said he did not want to work for a black man.

    • Malisha says:

      That is just suPERB. That “one supervisor” needs to be deposed once the wrongful death suit is brought against the SPD. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

      • cielo62 says:

        Malisha~ that guy can just go and find himself another job!


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Did we agree that most racists are stupid? Even more have psyche problems. Now this guy has just created cause for lawyers and prosecutors to go look into his work history. Since there’s probably more to be found, and not a few people falsely charged and/or imprisoned. This guy loses his job, his pension, his house, car, everything. His loose lip just sunk his ship.

        • cielo62 says:

          Lonnie- and that would be supreme karma should that happen! There should be no rewards for hatred.


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            A general rule of thumb is, don’t expose your weaknesses to the public by mass media. Because anything that can be used against you probably will be used against you. If Bob let’s it be known that he is a racist, the guy who wants his job, will find a way to make that a factor.

  2. Puck says:

    Another thing, more appropriate for this blog since it’s a legal thing: the annoying (ostensibly neutral) lawyers on dkos who keep insisting the state has to prove it was not a case of self-defense, and how hard that will be. If the lack of TM DNA on GZ and related evidence estabishes there was no assault by TM, then there was no reason for GZ to defend himself, meaning that the self-defense angle goes out the window. I don’t see why that would be so hard to establish BARD. Am I missing something?

    • Jun says:

      I am not a lawyer but from what I read about affirmative defense and self defense law, from real criminal lawyer websites is that, any defendant claiming self defense has to present evidence to their claim, otherwise they can not claim it was self defense

      “For affirmative defenses raised in the course of a Florida jury trial, the defendant must present some evidence supporting an affirmative defense before the Court will grant a jury instruction on that defense. If the defendant presents evidence to support the instruction, then the jury will be instructed on the law as to that defense and will consider the defense during their deliberations.”

      The state has to prove murder 2 or murder 3, basically murder

      Fogen has to excuse or justify his murder to the court and jury and present evidence of that

    • Jun says:

      Requirements of the Generally Accepted Affirmative Defenses

      To claim an affirmative defense a defendant typically must meet several requirements. First, he must admit that he did the act that he is accused of doing, and second he must provide evidence of the legally recognized exception to holding him responsible.

      – See more at: http://www.shestokas.com/general-law/affirmative-defenses-to-criminal-charges-self-necessity-entrapment-insanity/#sthash.VioRA09I.dpuf

    • Jun says:

      Self-Defense or Defense of Others as an Affirmative Defense
      Self-defense is an affirmative defense used by individuals charged with crimes against the person of another such as assault and battery, and in some cases murder. The actions are admitted but claimed to be legally justified by the danger presented by the alleged victim.

      There are typical elements to the successful use of self-defense to charges of a violent crime:

      1) the belief of the threat was reasonable
      2) there was no reasonable alternative
      3) the force used was no greater than necessary to end the threat

    • Tzar says:

      Don’t mind them, they are just tainting the jury pool while making a little change.

    • No, you aren’t missing anything.

  3. Puck says:

    Now that I’ve come out of lurk mode (I’ve been here several times a day for months, just reading and musing) I have some questions… One for my old HP friends: what evidence turned pciorlandosales? I heard something about a talk with a lawyer friend, but no details on which evidence points. He (?) gave me such grief last summer with the “I know you are but what am I?” runaround. Any other prominent Zits see the light?

    • kat says:

      pci hasn’t said any more about it. He replied to my comment and simply said it was after speaking to a lawyer friend.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @puck — i had a very nice chat with pci at hp. he did change his mind while at lunch with an attorney friend who was able to convince him of the concept of ‘touch less assault’. meaning that the defendant’s actions, although each legal on their own (up to shooting) consisted of assault.

      i was convinced of his sincerity and impressed that he would be courageous enough to publicly change his mind.

  4. Tzar says:

    Top ten problems Fogen faces

    10. Shortly after the murder, he sent texts of emails to Trayvon’s father that are so damaging to his character that they were suppressed from release before trial as they might prevent him getting a fair jury.

    9. A witness saw him straddling and with his hands about Trayvon’s neck, after he shot the teen, and not giving cpr all while preventing others from calling 911, by claiming he had already called them, which he had not.

    8. State firearms experts may identify the sound of him cocking or chamber checking his gun while on the NEN call

    7. According to his reenactment, he should have still been on the NEN call when he countered Trayvon. He was not.

    6. The screams on the w11 911 call are clearly that of a younger person, Mary Cutcher will testify to that. More importantly they don’t sound like they are coming from someone either receiving or throwing 20-35 punches, nor someone being smothered at any point.

    5. An ear witness heard something very similar to what DeeDee heard around the time she claims to have heard it. The witness heard, “what are you doing….”, whereas Dee Dee heard “what are you doing around here”

    4. Phone records will show that Trayvon was on the phone at the start of the altercation, severely reducing the likelihood that he can be considered an ambushing aggressor and further impeaching Zimmerman’s testimony as he never mentions this in any of his versions of the events of the night.

    3. He testified that the fight and shooting happened at the T, The body is ~40 feet from there and he dropped evidence even further south.

    2. He claimed he was punched 20 to 35 times in the face and his faces was so covered with blood that he was swallowing his own blood. Trayvon has no blood on his hands or cuffs, nor does he have any bruising or swelling commensurate to the onslaught fogen claims he delivered to his face

    1. A witness Saw a northernly chase towards the T, where the people were 10-12 feet apart. Dee Dee says that Trayvon tells her that he is by his father’s house seconds before the altercation starts.

    • racerrodig says:

      Yep….sure sucks to be Fogen..

      I’ll take “Insurmountable Evidence for $5,000.00 Alex”

    • Xena says:

      @Tzar. Great run-down!

    • Sophia33 says:

      Wait! I didn’t know he sent texts to Trayvon’s father. This is the first that I heard this. Where can I find this? And why is this not more well known?

      • Tzar says:

        IIRC correctly, Bernie questioned him about them at the first bond hearing.
        hold up

      • kat says:

        Where did he get Tracy’s phone number?

      • This is new to me. Since it was brought up in reference to an apology, it sounds like what he sent was NOT an apology but instead something in which he vilifies TM with.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Wow. I’d forgotten about that long, suppressed look of terror that Fogen had during this question. We didn’t know as much then as we do now.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides.

          We didn’t know as much then as we do now.

          Yep. According to O’Mara, he had not seen any evidence but he sure didn’t want Bernie to “go there.”

        • racerrodig says:

          It will be interesting to see what they show…..threats maybe ?? I guess PhatFogenPhoole needs to give his BP vest to someone else…..it’s far to big to fit anyone else involved in this case, well, maybe SheLie, but it’s way to big to fit Tracy or Sybrina.

          It’d be a real hoot id Fogen sent any messages stating anything but a sincere apology since a lawyer will state “No contact with their family in any way….I mean that” Fogen listen to anyone, not in our lifetime.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Seems to be a message ABOUT Tracy not to Tracy.

      • disappointed says:

        Man… I am going out on a limb and say whatever he said about Tracy must not have been nice. Fogen I know you think you love the children you have not yet had, but UNTIL you actually have a baby they are imaginary just like a Nanny we heard about in Florida.
        You shot and killed Tracy’s baby boy! Whatever he wants to say about you, sit there and take it and this part is important SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Tracy never asked for harm to come to you, THAT TAKES A LOT OF WILL power I know. Shame on you IF you said one bad thing about the Father of the boy you murdered. Shame on you. I do not think you even deserve a special place in hell, you just need to exist there when it’s your time. You have been “special” far to long.

      • bettykath says:

        I think the question was did he send a text to someone about Trayvon’s father.

      • Tzar says:

        Two sides to a story says:
        June 16, 2013 at 11:54 pm

        Seems to be a message ABOUT Tracy not to Tracy.

        yes, I stand corrected and I wish I could update my post
        and boy oh boy, I can not wait to see those texts

    • Rachael says:

      Did you know as far as #2 goes, when he was seen by the PA, there was no dried blood in his nasal cavities? I just find that a little odd. No crusting, nothing.

      • Rachael says:

        I mean I don’t find it odd at all – but I would if his nose was really broken and had been bleeding like he said.

      • Tzar says:

        I believe the following day right before his fantastic reenactment

      • Tzar says:

        Rachael says:
        June 16, 2013 at 10:17 pm

        I mean I don’t find it odd at all – but I would if his nose was really broken and had been bleeding like he said.

        a claim of head trauma, multiple punches to the face and broken nose earns you a trip to the ER, stat!!!


        • racerrodig says:

          Soooooo, you’re saying knuckle bandages are out, that what you’re saying…..no knuckle bandages ?? I’ll go with that.

      • disappointed says:

        racerrodig~ those knuckle bandages! Right there Fogen should have known his wife HATES him. Who the hell (in their right mind) puts knuckle bandages on a broken snout or on the back of your freaking head. OMG talk about idiotic. Did they not have $2. to pick up box of Sponge Bob band aids? Blue’s Clue? Barney? No – knuckle bandages. smdh

        • racerrodig says:

          I first saw them when he was walking up the stairway in the cop shop and partway up, knowing he was on camera, flashed them by turning around. I laughed so hard my ribs hurt. Then the dry run, er, reenactment and he’s just whirling away as if to say “..hey….look. I was pummeled and damn near died……and here’s the proof” What a DH.

      • disappointed says:

        Oh and I meant to say if he did not have $2. to buy some sponge bob, barney or blues clues bandages, if I were him I would have used duct tape. I guess Fogen believes in go big or go home. By the way I am still smdh.

      • Yorazigo says:

        I had a broken nose quite a few years ago — fell face-first onto cement sidewalk. Had two huge black eyes, swollen and very purple and took about 2 weeks for color to fade to yellow & then disappear. First couple of days my eyes were so swollen they were like slits and I couldn’t wear my glasses it hurt so bad. No glasses meant I couldn’t read, watch tv, drive, etc.!

      • Tzar says:

        Yorazigo says:
        June 17, 2013 at 2:04 am

        I had a broken nose quite a few years ago — fell face-first onto cement sidewalk. Had two huge black eyes, swollen and very purple and took about 2 weeks for color to fade to yellow & then disappear. First couple of days my eyes were so swollen they were like slits and I couldn’t wear my glasses it hurt so bad. No glasses meant I couldn’t read, watch tv, drive, etc.!

        Fine I will post this video, but you asked for it

    • Devastating. Never seen anything quite like it. Even Sean Hannity looked shocked at one point.

      So, now there are expensive jury consultants, and it also looks like GZ has been coached a bit on the little grin/smile- this may have also come from the consultants, don’t know. Wow.

      Gerry Spence opens a can of good ole whup ass on a witness who was coached.: “Have you ever in your life needed a coach to tell the truth?”

      “I never did have a coach to tell me how to testify.”

    • Sophia33 says:


      You are right. I forgot about the text messages. Now do you know the reason that BDLR hasn’t brought it up again? Or at least brought it up in the media to play the same game as O’Mara?

      • Tzar says:

        They are sealed until the trial and the state is going to play by the rules with such a nationally scrutinized case. The professor can clarify further.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh I thought he texted ABOUT Trayvon Martin’s father, not TO him. I will bet the texts and so forth were essentially either racist tirades or self-incriminating stuff. Fogen’s I.Q. is not higher than the temperature in Florida in February (Fahrenheit at best). And in the early days after the murder, he did not THINK he had to be careful about what he was saying because he had Lee’s and Wolfinger’s assurance (IMO) that he would not be charged with a crime.

  5. Sophia33 says:

    Just wanted to say that I am so glad I found this site. I have been doing some posting on Huffington Post. The information here has been helpful in dealing with some of the misinformation. I posted earlier under some other name (Tara333n) and then realized that some of the folks from HP might be here and know my other one.

    Again, thank you so much for the work you do.

  6. Malisha says:

    I can see West getting mixed up.

    WEST telling Judge Nelson which ten people he wants off the jury on peremptories:

    Your Honor, we rule out Mr. Black, Miss Black, Mrs. Black, Dr. Black, Mr. Brown, Ms. Brown, Miss Brown and Dr. Brown, and Mr. A. A. — uh — excuse me, I seem to have these two lists mixed up — um — wait a minute, if it please the Court …

    O’Mara: “What are you DOING?”

    West: Um — you TOLD ME — get rid of all the Blacks and Browns!

  7. Xena says:

    Dave has a journalist pass for GZ’s trial and has been attending the hearings and was there last week during jury selection. Today, he posted an article on his blog about it.


    I asked, and he gave his permission for me to post the following here.

    In the state of Florida, one of the frequent questions concerns challenges from each side. This is directly from an e-mail sent out from the Court Services Administrator/PIO to all credentialed journalists:

    Q. How many challenges does each side have in jury selection?
    A. Because this charge is punishable by life in prison, each side will have 10 peremptory challenges and unlimited challenges for cause. Challenges are also commonly referred to as strikes.

    Thought you might find this of interest.

  8. cielo62 says:

    Professor~ What happens tomorrow? Will it be same process as last week, days 1-5? What happens when they reach their key number? Is everyone else dismissed and the voire dire continues with the 40?

  9. IMBack says:

    After reading this…wouldn’t it make sense to reverse most of his cases where an AA was the defendant? I can’t believe this guy was a judge. Judges like him makes it hard for AA to get a fair trial

    • Trained Observer says:

      He wasn’t a judge,.. he was a magistrate … sort of a glorified clerk for processing . He did not preside over trials.

      • Malisha says:

        He did not preside over trials. But he COULD do plenty of damage. He would sign warrants (for arrests, for searches, basically for ANYTHING) which is a way for police to arrest people without any real probable cause. It’s a way to let police go on fishing expeditions and other corrupt adventures. Believe me, a dishonest magistrate is responsible for a LOT OF DIRT in the Virginia system. And nothing they do can be UNDONE because it is done without notice.

  10. bettykath says:

    Congratulations to BLDR.

    “Mr. de la Rionda was successful in obtaining a death penalty recommendation and sentence on 18 of those cases.”

    don’t like this so much.

    • cielo62 says:

      bettykath~ it’s what he’s paid to do in Florida. Go after Florida to change it. At least THIS case has no such outcome available.


    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m not all that thrilled about the awards given to prosecutors because it encourages judicial abuses.

    • Malisha says:

      But it comforts me in this case for the following reason: Corey would not want to hand a big LOSER CASE to DeLaRionda right at the time of his award. Don’t imagine for a minute that these things were not known and planned a year or more ago. It means to me, more than any other single piece of information, that BDLR is not being asked to “throw the case” no matter what else may be going on behind the scenes.

  11. IMBack says:

    [Moderator: I believe this comment is a verbatim copy of a review published by Think Progress. You must credit your source material. I have converted your comment into a link to the source article]

    • bettykath says:

      re: NAACP
      “without prejudice and racial divide, the NAACP would simply cease to exist.”

      I wonder if he has any idea how very true this statement is? And how bassackwards he sees its truth?

      • Malamiyya says:

        Since NAACP stands for Negro African-American Colored People, how could it possibly be anything but a racist organization?

        • racerrodig says:

          NAACP is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.


          • cielo62 says:

            Racist- I do believe the comment was pure sarcasm.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            Then I guess it’s a “Duhhhhh of the day to me” I guess I need to slow down.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I knew, when I first saw that remark, someone would step forward with the correction. You happened to be the one, but you need do nothing at all about it Racer, for just as surely as you made that “unnecessary” correction, there are people for whom that correction was needed. “You da Man!” Racer, go, go, go!

          • racerrodig says:

            You got Lonnie…..but it’s YOU who is “The Man” I had to scale back last week as I just couldn’t listen to jury selection. Sometimes I get so far behind I just dive in to fast.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ve been making playlists of the jury selection days and putting them on , I’ll keep adding the trial days as they come, so you can watch anytime. usually I’m only a day late (but not a dollar short). 😀

    • Xena says:

      So if the word “Negro” or “Black” is in a title, Papa Zim defines the organization as “racist.”

      • Ahhh, that explains it, Negro Basketball Association. What a biased civil rights organization that is. Basketball is just a cover…

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, and the baskets were originally brown too– baskets to carry fruit and other goods, were used by the creator of the sport.

        Canadian originated basketball this way, and a Canadian baseball team adopted Reggie Jackson as one of their own team members.

        Just don’t let Z come here, please keep him there.

        • Xena says:


          Just don’t let Z come here, please keep him there.

          You mean, if GZ is acquitted, he won’t be safe in Canada? 🙂

      • Two sides to a story says:

        @cielo – Remember – Larry Byrd is – clear!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Larry Byrd in Space Jam

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ooops. Bird. Typing too fast. Time to relax and read!

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, the Z and north of 49 comment, was about Z sr AFTER trial and during GZ jailtime.

        He;s almost scarier than the killer.

        • Xena says:

          @ay2z. Papa Zim had a heart attack several weeks before GZ killed Trayvon. If he’s not careful, he might need a heart transplant and end up getting one from a Black person.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- let’s not forget that blood transfusions were pioneered by a black scientist!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Xena says:


            Xena- let’s not forget that blood transfusions were pioneered by a black scientist!

            Well there you go, knowing Black history. But, White Supremacists think that in a post-racist America, Black history month should be eliminated. (SMH)

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- I try. I’m also conversant in Hispanic History Month and Women’s History Month. We don’t actually have a month, but gays have certainly impacted history. I love being a subversive!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            Papa Z and the Blackheart ?? Can they rock, or do they need to be rocked. Looks like a rewrite opp to me.

        • racerrodig says:

          Rz sr is off the scale. Does “Black History Month”: mean it is “Anti White History”??? Can I have permission to beat him, about the head for awhile so maybe he’ll get some sense in that racist brick of a skull ?? This whole group may start what Manson wanted….total racial division in this country.

      • Malisha says:

        Racerrodig, the Hispanics have baseball. Whites USED to have golf but recently… [See “Radio, Golf” by August Wilson] so, well let’s just admit it. ALL SPORTS ARE RACIST. That’s why Fogen is no good at any of them. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! (PS: Politics are also racist)

        • racerrodig says:

          Now I’m really confused……do I need to return all those All Conference Football awards ?? Did I actually score those TD’s and what about those interceptions ?? and tackles ?

          I give up….Fogen’s fucked it up for all of us….

  12. Trained Observer says:

    This may have been earlier posted on another thread, but I just ran across. Unless a verdict already has been rendered, can we assume ongoing Fogen court may not be in session on July 24?


    ASA Bernie De La Rionda Awarded “Best Of The Best” Honor

    Jun 062013
    JACKSONVILLE, Fla. – The Association of Government Attorneys in Capital Litigation has awarded Senior Managing Director Bernie de la Rionda with the AGACL Trial Award for his Outstanding Advocacy in Capital Cases.

    Mr. de la Rionda will be presented with the AGACL award on July 24, 2013, in Washington D.C. during the “Best of the Best” presentation at the 34th Annual AGACL Summer Conference.
    “We are thrilled that Bernie has been recognized with this prestigious award. Bernie’s reputation as a tenacious prosecutor is legendary. He approaches every case with firm resolve and hard work and achieves great success as a result. He is totally devoted to seeking justice for victims,” said State Attorney Angela Corey.

    Mr. de la Rionda has been an Assistant State Attorney in the Fourth Judicial Circuit since 1983. He has been a member of the office’s Homicide Unit since June of 1986. He has previously been Director of the Homicide Division, Director of Circuit Court, Director of Repeat Offender Court, Division Chief of Nassau County and the Public Corruption Unit as well as a trial attorney in the Felony, Sexual Assault and County Divisions.

    Mr. de la Rionda won the State Attorney’s Office First Annual Distinguished Service Award in 1991 and Fourth Annual Jury Trial Award in 1993. Mr. de la Rionda has tried over 250 jury trials, including 68 murder cases (29 death penalty). Mr. de la Rionda was successful in obtaining a death penalty recommendation and sentence on 18 of those cases.

    The AGACL is an active, full-time non-profit Association with a membership of over two hundred different government agencies and officers. Their purpose is to provide information regarding capital punishment cases. For more information regarding the AGACL, you can visit their website at http://www.agacl.com.

  13. bettykath says:

    This series on jury selection is excellent. Thanks.

  14. bettykath says:

    A question about gag orders. To whom do they apply? I’m sure they apply to the attorneys and the defendant. Witnesses? all those listed by either side? Media?

  15. ic2fools says:

    Sitting here reflecting The Fight Of My Life and want to share.

    The days in front of the Martins are going to be very hard sitting in Court. And we too have days when we feel like we just want to give up. But don’t, I know easier said than done. Just hold on until our strength replenishes.

    I want to share a beautiful inspiring video that has help movitate me and want to share here with ya’ll and for the Martins’,

    I hope this gives just the bit of strength to fight everything that comes to destroy……

    [this video does not exist. plz check the link]

    • Xena says:

      I love Kirk Franklin. “Smile” is one of my favorites.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        One of my fav’s also

      • ic2fools says:

        Then my friend this one is for you:

        Love Kirk too (BIG GRIN!). I like how this Preacher flows fa sho, yo!

      • ic2fools says:

        Cool when Maurice White walks in, amazing dancing and singing..

        So let’s throwback the original EWF, maawwaahhh Maurice. lol his lil butt thought he was sexy! dancin like a white boi. nothin wrong how white guys dance their cute

      • Xena says:

        @ic2fools. Saw Kirk Franklin in a play back in the late 1990’s. He’s really short. LOL! Saw EWF live several years ago at one of those summer fest events.

        Wow! Now I’m really homesick for Chicago — miss the arts and entertainment.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ha – all the above brings back memories of growing up in the Midwest.

      • ic2fools says:

        That was fun Professor.

        I tried to think of something fun to post back and darn its’ taking too long, Yeah I need to lighten up a bit. Just as soon as I finish watching this documentary Voynich_manuscript.


        my highlight of the day is the notification sound when my android get’s a email. hahaha sounds like a bottle of pop opening and the top hitting a table. changed it yesterday ’cause follow-up on Friday. i got tired of hearing ‘someone is knocking on the door’, that shyte got on my dam nerves lol lol lol

        is that geeky or what, snort!

      • ay2z says:

        Schmenge’s, those silly silly Canucks!!!

        Eugene and John, I knew John played the clarinet from Trains, Planes and Automobiles, polka specialist. But never saw the Schmenge’s before, thanks for the laugh, Prof!

      • Fred’s done lost his marbles, posting the Shmenge Brothers. All right then, John Candy: You’re going the wrong way:

      • ay2z says:

        LOL Crane! Talk about a lesson about making assumptions!

      • ay2z says:

        Schmenge’s listed a lot of top musicians in this video, anyone catch Stompin’ Tom Chicken?

        Betcha most ‘mericans wouldn’t catch the play on poultry names in that one, sorta a national icon, was that musician.

        Here’s the real Stompin’ Tom, who sadly, passed away this past March.

        A classic.

    • Rachael says:

      roflmao – reading the Bible is not prepublicity. Hahahahaha

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good stuff! I loved this PR and that he too is Hispanic.

      I wonder if we’ll ever know if Fogen racked his firearm in the NEN call. I can make a similar sound with my flashlight, which is what he claimed he did.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        *PJ* not PR

      • parrot says:

        That’s OK. PR –Puerto Rican!!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh, true. OK boo-boo.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        What kind of flashlight do you have and how do you make the same sound with your flashlight?

        I would really like to know. Some people had some arguments why it couldn’t be the gun, but I haven’t heard a good explanation for the sound, if it isn’t the gun.

        • racerrodig says:

          There isn’t a flashlight on the planet that’s that loud or sounds like that…..It sure does sound like a semi – auto pistol being charged though. One of the experts stated he hears Fogen say something about his gun not loading properly, just after the sound and it’s all over the internet that the Kel – Tek P9 has a problem feeding the 1st round when certain hollow points are used.

          Remember the sound is picked up by the tiny mic on a cell phone, and we’re expected to believe a small flashlight made that much noise ??

          I have this really good bridge for sale…..step right over here…

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I guess if gz takes the stand Bernie will ask him to demonstrate how he rapped on the flashlight. If he does and it doesn’t produce a “big sound” with that large a resonance, that will be another nail in the coffin. I took a six inch long flashlight and rapped on it, it hardly makes any sound at all. So, whatever he was knocking on had to be much, much larger to make such a loud resonant sound. A front or garage door would do nicely.

          • racerrodig says:

            I must have 25 flashlights in the house, in the shop and in both vehicles not to mention my sons car. Not one makes anything but a single “tink” sound when rapped.

            I do, however, own 3 semi – auto pistols and all 3 of them make a near identical sound to what we believe is the sound of his Kel – Tek on the NEN call.

            He said “coon” (I hate even typing this) it sounds like a gun being racked and I’m tired of these shit heads pissing down our backs and telling us it’s raining out.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’m not a gun owner, although I’ve fired weapons at ranges. I’m told I’m a pretty good shot. I don’t know if that’s a Kel-Tec 9 or what we hear on that tape. But I do get the impression that it’s spring driven metal on metal that’s producing that sound, something like a very large cigarette lighter would do. Very rapid hiss and clacks coming in regular succession say mechanical device to me.

            Could be that he had both his and his wife’s gun in the truck, but couldn’t get his working, so he took hers. But something is definitely amiss about him being alone in that truck with so much other noise and what seems to be whispers going on.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yeeeepp, “Make no attempt to adjust your TV……you are not alone”

            When I hear on the enhanced version “…tell ’em this..” and he stutters as if he’s drunk, it’s certain, he had somebody with him. I’m beginning to think Trayvon was screaming to that person and may not have known they were with Fogen.

            Lets face it, anythings possible with this bunch.

          • cielo62 says:

            racer~ as they say, truth is stranger than fiction.


          • racerrodig says:

            There is not a soap opera writer on the planet that could dream this up.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            If foggen wasn’t smart enough to realize the crime he was committing up to the point where he was holding Trayvon at gun point, his com padre’s certainly would have known and been in terrible fear of 20 year sentences, should Trayvon get to testify about it.

            Just imagine Oysterman standing in the cut through, out of sight of the witnesses who didn’t know he was there, but whispering directions to gz. He’d be saying: “kill him”, if he knew that he had been seen. Because if his name came up later in a complaint, his LE career would be finished. He might have even lost his pension.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Oh and given your expertise with machinery, I’m more than certain that your opinion trumps theirs. That’s enough confirmation for me to believe that what I hear is spring loaded metal sliding on metal and moving a third metal part. The only reasonable choices for what might make these sounds are few.

          • racerrodig says:

            Last night after I sent you that post, I compared my 9mm (very carefully) to the sound we believe is his gun being racked. It is a
            95 % match despite them being different makes. The only difference is the speed at which I do this.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            He’s probably the kind that likes to play with his gun. They tried to say that his hands would have been full, as a reason to think that he was not racking his gun at that time. But, I note that I put my cell phone on speaker and leave it laying on the desk while I talk. He would have NEN on speed dial, and he could have put the phone on speaker and simply left it on the dash, or hung it on the visor or rear view mirror or anywhere else. Leaving his hands free to fiddle with the gun.

          • racerrodig says:

            My belief is he racked his pistol with one hand by just pushing the slide against his body and pushing. I can do it with any of my guns. It’s taught to police and military in case you lose the use of one hand. If he did, that would explain the slight difference in tone.

  16. aussie says:

    In a world where “everyone” drives. walking is suspicious in itself. A good person doesn’t walk to go anywhere, they drive. They don’t walk for exercise, they drive to the gym to use the treadmill.

    So obviously lower-income people and kids too young for a licence are automatically suspicious; their only possible excuse for walking is to look around to see what other people have.

    For this NW this was probably the excuse they needed to get rid of this woman and her supporters. They’ll be more careful who they choose in future.

  17. elcymoo says:

    Walking While “Tan:” 16 yo Son Trailed by Neighborhood Watch Captain & Questioned by Police


    • cielo62 says:

      elcymoo~ DAYUM ! Even being tan is dangerous! AT LEAST that freaking crazy bitch didn’t have a gun and it was 2pm in the afternoon. Racism should be classified as a mental illness. This woman is a prime example.


      • Shari says:

        How terribly sad. It’s exactly what happened to Trayvon. The only difference is Fogen had a gun and was more determined to get his “asshole.”

        Posted this in a prior thread.

      • disappointed says:

        My guess she is kin to the PJ that thinks we should all arm ourselves, well unless our name is Trayvon or look like a Trayvon. If she did that to my kid and then showed up at my home, I would have to bounce her off the property. I am sorry there are people like that, I know that does not make-up for it but it breaks my heart. This is America the home of the Free and Brave. No where does it say the Free and Brave unless you are of color.

    • ic2fools says:

      Good and hope more parents report, write and email to make this issue know. One step towards putting an end to Zporters harassing negligent actions.

      Thanks for posting elcymoo

    • Nellie Nell says:

      My goodness….. that woman has some serious issues. What I just can not figure out is how she came to the conclusion that he was thinking about robbing a home? She really should be ashamed of herself and I am going to agree that racism is a mental disorder.

      Also, I am a bit disappointed in the comments. Quite a few of the comments are about the concussion totally missing the point of why the story was written. While I understand that the child was in recovery during when he was profiled by the nutjob, the fact that she profiled him stood out to me.

      I feel sorry for the kid for having to go through profiling because he had a tan. The parents understand how concerning it is to be profiled because of the color of ones skin.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Nellie Nell, I’ve got three biracial grand kids myself and, woe be unto anybody thinking they are going to do that to either one of them. this kind of stuff needs to stop and, it needs to begin with the case of Fogen following, detaining and then killing an innocent kid whose only crime was, being born an AA.

      • Malisha says:

        The mental illness of the racist is paranoia.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @elcymoo, Only in America! why do people like this woman and Fogen believe that, some people can walk and go any where they damn well please but, people of color are to be restricted to their own neighborhood.

      It’s such a shame that there are still people like this woman, who think that just because people with brown skin and, those with ebony skin tone, are not permitted to walk where ever they please. yet she and those of her skin tone, are allowed to walk where ever they choose to walk without any such thing happening to them.

      Had that kid been mine, I would have pressed charges against this nosy Parker for sure.

    • diary73 says:

      I really wonder how many reports have been made by blacks about whites walking and acting suspiciously. Of those calls, what have been the responses and reactions of the responding officers. This is data that could be documented and would make for a great research document framed by Critical Race Thoery.

    • ay2z says:

      Wow, down to the kid wrestling to cause his injury.

      This was posted early this monring, and should be able to be verified by correspondence. If thi sall can be verified, it should be headlined to and about Neighborhood Watch. National media maybe??!

      The sick effect of misplaced power.

  18. disappointed says:

    This is in the handbook the watch captain had at the Retreat.
    *Burglars may case area by posing as joger (yet George is concerned that Trayvon does not look like he is athletic or training) or someone looking for an address or friend. (like George looking for address)? It is also in the evidence. Sorry I am just trying to catch up with some of you here that seems to be able to recite without looking for “it”.

    • LLMPapa says:

      LOL, Good catch! He shoulda read the book!

      • disappointed says:

        Thank you Papa! That damn double standard. He should have had area map with all the address handy also. Guess if he had it on him he would not have been beaten nearly to diapers at the T. What a moron. It seems more like this whole watch might have been cover to pop one in someone. JMO Sick bastard.

      • Xena says:

        @LLMPapa. ROFLMAO.
        You got him, LLMPapa. Yougothimgothimgothim. You got George Zimmerman! 🙂

      • diary73 says:

        LLMPapa, happy Father’s Day to you. Every so often, I think of the picture you posted of your son and you when you explained your motivation toward this cause. Thank you for your efforts. Thank you!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Great stuff! Couldn’t even follow his own damn rulebook.

      • Rachael says:


      • LLMPapa says:

        Another part of the book George must’ve not read….

        Anyone wanna take a shot in the dark guess where Zimmerman’s bicycle was supposedly stolen from? LOL LOL

      • ic2fools says:

        Happy Fathers’ Day Papa

        You never fail to amaze us. ell we know why fogen failed college, him don’t read the material

      • Malisha says:

        He knew the address.

        He wanted to bring in his prey; he got out of the schruck to chase him down; he and probably Oster-blender-man and maybe brilliant magesterial ZimSenior made up that insanely stupid crap about the address after the murder.

        Remember, after “We don’t need you to do that,” we didn’t hear Fogen say, “But you asked me for the address…”

      • *snort*


      • Puck says:

        If TM was running, then what good would an address on RVC or any of the streets do? There isn’t even a rationale behind the address lie.

        • racerrodig says:

          I’m still trying to find the part where the dispatcher said “..okay, now get out of your vehicle and get me an address so the officer knows where the suspect isn’t…..” or is it just us ??

          I’m certain if the dispatcher had been told “…yep, and I’m armed” after asking “…are you following him” he would not have said “..we don’t need you to do that” but “get back in your vehicle at once and do not confront him at all” since that is against the law, despite what the Zidiots say.

          • Puck says:

            hey racer,

            So in the end, what is going to be the final nail? The forensics or GZ’s texts/phone records? (I wish I knew what you do…)

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ It’s gonna be….. FOR-EN-SICS!


          • racerrodig says:

            I’d say the Forensics are the pine box his coffin is made from (he rates nothing better) and the final nail(s) are phone records etc.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m pretty sure the phone & GPS records will be strung around his neck as he takes a swim. The misalignment on Trayvon’s clothes I believe will loom large as will the blood / gravity issue, taken with the water stains on his boot toes and lack of anything on the back of his jacket and pants.

          • Puck says:

            I recall your posting that your LE buddies were impressed with your guesses on the phone records.

          • racerrodig says:

            Very good recall !! The details such as those are very often what a jury looks at when the meat of the case is solid. The Forensics are unbeatable for the most part, but if I’m heading to Target why do I have all these calls and texts on my phone that are to others that stuck their noses into this.

            No, he was out to Target (someone) plain & simple.

          • Puck says:

            I’m really looking forward to all of the evidence we know exists but haven’t seen finally coming out (if it’s used) – the texts, phone calls, emails, GPS…

            I want Zidiots to sit there watching all of this revealed while the veins in their neck bulge, their faces turn red, and smoke comes out their ears until their ugly racist heads explode. And that Jeralyn b, seriously, wtf is wrong with her?

          • racerrodig says:

            I wonder what chapter of RZ sr’s book this makes.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ Like this?


          • cielo62 says:

            Sorry. It was supposed to embed the head exploding scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

          • Puck says:

            A Zidiot learns the truth:

          • Puck says:

            Damn, let me try again

            at 2:59, whatever

          • Puck says:

            actually, that looks more like fogen lol – this is him hearing the guilty verdict

      • Sophia33 says:


        I love your videos. Thank you so much! I wanted to leave you a message on Youtube, but you disabled your messages. Not that I blame you given this case and the way people have acted. I learned so much about the case from your videos. I have shared them a lot too, especially on HP, hope you don’t mind. But it was important to deal with the misinformation.

        Again, thank you so much!

      • ay2z says:

        Nailed it!!

        (and there’s the ‘I wasn’t told not to ‘follow’, only we don’t ‘need you to do that’ argument + “… not doing Neighborhood Watch FUNCTION’ so can play by your own rules, gun and all.)

        Damned sure I’d profile someone with a gun stuck in their pants while I was out and about, and they were looking my way and watching my moves. Just to be aware and avoid contact, and if that’s profiling to be cautious to move away, too bad. (like any teaching for public safety for women, be aware of surroundings and prevent interaction.)

      • ay2z says:

        Papa, I haven’t looked at your photobucket pic yet, but think I can answer the ‘where was bicycle was stolen from and what that has to do with advice from NW documents.

        Patio, wasn’t it?? LOL!!! Don’t leave your stuff out to attract a crime of opportunity!

        (that brings up what fogen said of himself to Doris Singleton in the voice test preamble– talking about his dad, “he doesn’t think I listen…” Surprise, Surprise!)

        (like the Taaffe garage door open, I’m suspicious about that being just excitement about date with female friend and overdose of aftershave fumes.)

      • racerrodig says:

        What do we expect from someone who only looks at the pictures.

      • @Puck
        Captain America. Hans Blix in the shark tank. You’re welcome. (PS As you know I love movie scenes. I am going to burn like a twig for posting this)

    • ay2z says:

      Saw the pic, wow, he should have ticketed himself!!!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Gee, I’m callin’ because I’m a real suspishus guy . . . I don’t know what my deal iz.

      • disappointed says:

        Two sides~ lmao! Where did he get money to buy said bike and does he have proof of purchase? I do not believe a word he says. If he says it raining outside, I am checking.

  19. @Lady2Soothe:

    We are copying a previous comment of yours, regarding Colorado, so it will now show in two places, thank you so much. Fred only edited one small portion- an address – we are so thankful you are all right and grateful for the links and help. Will tweet.

    • lady2soothe says:

      @ Crane-Station:

      Thank you so much for reposting in two sections. I lived in Colorado Springs 19 years, 11 months, 3 days and I used to know the hours right down to the (miserable) minutes. If I didn’t still have family there I would NEVER go back. Never-the-less as much as I hate to admit it, I left a piece of my heart on the Front Range and I HATE seeing the fire destroy such a beautiful area and the devastating loss to the residents.

      Thank you everyone who has donated and or sent your prayers.

      • Such a beautiful state. Truth: As we get older and search for a place to call ‘home,’ we have considered Colorado. Dare I admit I love Denver? Mt paternal grandparents lived there. Denver Health (what used to be called Denver General) has a remarkable Level one trauma center. Let’s see, I have a nephew who is an expert skiier, who runs a snow cat at Vail. Beautiful state, I am like you, I hate these fires each year…

        • lady2soothe says:

          Just checked…. Containment up to 75% unfortunately 4,600 people still unable to return home.

          Now, Denver is a different story altogether. I actually enjoy the excitement but then again I am a native of Los Angeles and thoroughly enjoy the crowds, lights and activity. The one thing(s) I dislike about Denver is the cold and worse still, brushing snow off the car and driving on ice, but that would go for the east coast too.

          Mountains can be beautiful but it doesn’t even come close in comparison to the serenity of the ocean.

          • Ahhh, well we are still speaking the same language. I attended college in Eagle Rock, and spent a total of 13 years (on and off) in LA, and absolutely loved it. I lived in Malibu, at the Ventura County line, ocean side of the PCH for a time. I used to roller blade every day from Temescal Canyon at PCH to the Santa Monica Pier and back. I spent the majority of time in all, in Woodland Hills. Traffic is wicked, but one of my favorite places.

            Thank you so for allowing me to reminisce.

            I would not be able to afford any of it, today.

            Sigh, that was a different life ago, and I left part of my heart there.

          • lady2soothe says:

            OMG… I grew up in Eagle Rock, went to Eagle Rock High & learned to swim when I was 5 at Oxy!!!

            I live in La Crescenta right below Angeles Crest, a few blocks below the La Canada/Flintridge Fire (we had to evacuate)

          • Well, what a little bitty world, I have been in that pool because I am an Oxy grad! (83). Amazing, isn’t it? Brings back such fond memories. But oh dear, just now looking up the fire, from 2009, saying 4000 homes had to evacuate. 😦

            Eagle Rock, of all places in the world to have in common, wow. I loved it. Too cool you grew up there.

            (confession: when I say I was in that pool my distinct memory is that none of us exactly had any clothes on, and it was at night, LOL. But that was late 70s early 80s when people still had fun.)

          • lady2soothe says:

            I spend my weekends in Venice and Malibu so I know the area like the back of my hand!

          • When Cirque du Soliel showed up with Saltimbanco, I rolled up to some type of counter and got my son and I tickets …on rollerblades, Santa Monica Pier. That was just in their fifth year (I am reading), and I remember it today still, as being one of the most amazing things I had ever seen. I can still hear the music, in my head.

            Goodness, then there was that surreal OJ thing, the earthquake, etc etc.

            Malibu is nearly unaffordable for anyone, which is why I was nearly in Ventura, but still with the address. The ocean. Spectacular. All the way up and down that coastline.

            LA awes me to this day. So cool to recall these fond memories.

          • lady2soothe says:

            I swam 6 days a week of every summer from June thru Sept. at Oxy from the time I was 5 until I was probably 15 or 16, which would be 68’ or 69’ so I guess logically (hopefully anyway) we weren’t exactly in the same water! (I didn’t swim in the buff there but I do most every day here… Why wear clothes, you’re still naked underneath). My brother and I also played tennis most every day before and after swimming on the lower courts on the left when you first enter the campus, my version of tennis anyway; you hit the ball directly to me and I hit the ball directly to you, no running involved!

            Funny how many alumni I’ve met… Usually someone would ask where I’m from, I would say LA & they’d want to know where, I’d respond, “ahhh it’s a little place in the suburbs, east of downtown, you’ve never heard of it” they’d keep pressing and I would finally admit to Eagle Rock and they’d say say “I went to Occidental College!” Crane, your major?

            The SM pier is still as exciting as ever and filled with street performers, artists, vendors, and fishermen/women. Unfortunately the old Ferris Wheel was replaced a few years ago with an updated modern version and in my opinion, pretty at night but not nearly as charming as the original.

            Venice Boardwalk is crazy amazing although they’ve started enforcing some strange laws regarding what the vendors can sell. One year it was religious items, the next no religious items. The next paintings, the year after no paintings, etc. It’s tacky wonderful and I generally walk from Rose down to Washington then back every Sunday before heading up to Malibu which is more expensive than ever. Gas alone runs about $1 more per gallon than in SM.

            People who have never been here, especially never lived here don’t get being able to skate/rollerblade etc. up and down the entire coast and stop in pretty much any fancy or not restaurant in a bathing suit or torn shorts and t-shirt. I LOVE it!

          • I have to say, it was a pleasure reading your comment. Just beautiful, made my day. I admit when I typed Eagle Rock, I thought, “She’s probably heard of it, being an LA native, but never been there!” Unbelievable.

            I have a degree in Biology, and at Oxy, it is called an Artium Baccalaureatus (A.B.) Degree.

            I love that you swam there so long. Let’s see. I played soccer for the first couple of years, and played rugby for a brief period, until I got my ass kicked my some woman from UCLA, if memory serves, who was the size of a train.

            Fred is a swimmer. He is more comfortable in the water than on land, and if you get him started, he will talk about swimming all day.

            It’s true, folks who have never been there don’t often understand the passion one can develop for that area. Venice, Malibu, Santa Monica all sound about the same, I hope there will come a time when I can at least return for a visit.

          • lady2soothe says:

            I meant to add, I go to Malibu on Sunday afternoons just south of Gladstone’s. There’s been a 16-18 ft. Great White who breach’s right off the outside patio for the past 2 years. So far I’ve yet to see her/him but I’m hoping! Last summer several baby tigers (18”-24”) kept bumping into me in Venice. Not that I was actually looking to get bitten but it was so exciting to have them so close I would stand in waist deep water for hours watching them.

            Well if you ever make it out, please, please let me know, I would dearly love to meet you for lunch, a swim, coffee or whatever!

            Okay, back to business! I got so excited about our conversation I haven’t checked to see the juror pool comings and goings.

            btw, thank you and Professor for the wonderful service you’re providing by sharing your knowledge, you’ve been God-sends sorting and explaining all the technicalities and innuendos.


          • Awww, I would go watch for that breach too! And the tigers? So beautiful. Yes, if we ever do, we will. Coffee, swim and lunch? Sounds so wonderful.

            I just the other day realized it’s a 35 minimum because it’s a juvenile involved. We are thankful to our readers as well, to be honest. Florida is a bit different. For example, in addition to a 6-person jury, I am not sure if they have parole. In this state, 35 to life would mean one would serve 85% of 35 to the parole board. So, that would mean 29.75 years, to be parole eligible.

            But, also in this state, I can tell you my observation is, DOC is not amused with a gun murder. I once saw a twenty year deferment behind this sort of thing. It just took my breath away.

            Makes me wonder if any lawyer has had a heart-to-heart with GZ: ‘Listen, there is a possibility you could get convicted, here is the reality, and here are some ways that people and their families break down the time, and serve it.’
            It’s a substantial sentence.

          • lady2soothe says:

            Good morning!

            Yes, 35 to life, 25 for the murder plus 10 for the death of a minor. Wonder if FL. gives good time? Colorado and California give 1 day for every 30, is that where the 85% comes from?

            Marissa Alexander was given 20 for getting off a warning shot, but I also understand there may have been extenuating circumstances regarding her approaching him at his house and threatening him as well. Didn’t follow the case so not sure of the particulars other than taking note of her pigmentation and thinking, “she’s going to get F’d”… (now reading) Angela Corey offered her a 3 yr. plea but Ms. Alexander felt she had a good SYG case.

            Having myself been in an EXTREMELY abusive relationship (hence escaping to Colorado for 20 yrs) I can certainly understand Ms. Alexander’s state of mind…. I sat w/ a shotgun waiting for my SOB to walk through the door. I’m an emotional person and didn’t feel a thing about blowing his ass away which concerned me MORE than killing him. After 20 or so minutes I called the police, told them my plans and gave them an option “If you can get here before he does I’ll give you the shotgun, if he gets here before you, just send the coroner”. They must have been very close because they were at the house in less than 1 minute. Luckily he arrived about 2 minutes after the police and I wasn’t charged but he was for resisting arrest, we all got sprayed with mace and he went to jail. They let him out on a PR Bond and he showed back up at the house in the middle of the night…. He was really pissed when 2 weeks later they gave him back his shotgun COMPLETELY disassembled, presented in a small box…. It was still another couple of months before I finally was able to get away…. Anyway I digress.

            GZ is an idiot (wow, that’s an understatement) and even *if* MO’M or someone else explained the consequence of a guilty verdict, IMHO he is so full of himself and his righteousness he wouldn’t even consider admitting guilt or trying to get a plea deal going. All in all I doubt MO’M would have suggested it, this case was going to “put him over the top and the clients would start rolling in” NOT (bet he regrets pro bono or even getting involved), and it appears everyone in his family only see $$$$$ signs emanating from this tragedy whether he’s convicted or not.

            My heart goes out to the Martin/Fulton Family. I lost a son in a car accident in 1993, but I at least understood and was able to have closure. The agony they must endure is without doubt, excruciating.

            btw… Please have your husband check his Yahoo email, I sent something for you.

          • cielo62 says:

            lady2soothe~ Completely dissambled, huh? LOL! GOOD you were able to escape. It’s not just the physical escape, which can be difficult, but too many people don’t realize the EMOTIONAL aspect to making that escape. Which is why I wonder so profusely about Shellie. Is she a sick scum-sucker like her husband or an abused prisoner emotionally tied to that manipulative bastard?


          • lady2soothe says:

            @ cielo62…. Oh yeah, it was FUNNY, he was FURIOUS, but he didn’t touch me *that* time and behind his back I couldn’t stop smiling, hey it still brings a smile to my face!… Yes the emotional turmoil will never completely go away. For over 10 years I experienced nightmares of him chasing me on a nightly basis. The nightmares finally subsided a little at a time until they have almost completely disappeared. They last one was a few years ago, and I actually stood my ground! Okay so it’s 2013; he called my Dad’s house just before last X-mas and I happened to answer the phone, I couldn’t believe how I immediately fell into shaking and being scared of him (I left CA for Colo. In 1981).

            I too wonder about Shellie. From personal experience and working (just help, no professional experience) with other women how easily it is to become a victim of Stockholm Syndrome… What many people who have never been in an abusive relationship fail to understand is the connection of terror which binds us to out abuser.

            I’ve often heard “I would never let any wo/man hit me” but what they don’t realize is, neither would any victim just let some man walk up and hit them. The abuse is so gradual we don’t even realize we’re statistics until it’s too far into the abuse but by then we’ve made excuses, feel guilty for what we have been programed into thinking “if I didn’t do such and such, *I* wouldn’t have upset him” all the “I love you’s and PROMISE’s never to do that again’s” the mental degradation that WE now inflict upon ourselves for being: a bad person, stupid, ugly, worthless, undeserving of better etc. etc. etc.

            I view Shellie as a (willing?) victim of GZ.

          • cielo62 says:

            lady2soothe~ so many years later and he STILL calls? Honestly, get a gun. Learn how to use it. Some men NEVER understand “NO” and “It’s over”. I fear for women who DO manage to escape and then don’t know/can’t protect themselves. Stay safe!


          • lady2soothe says:

            lol… No, I had my chance and I blew it. Not worried about him. I just couldn’t believe my own reaction after all this time.

          • cielo62 says:

            lady2soothe~ you are awesome! But seriously, stay safe. 🙂


          • lady2soothe says:

            Ahh, thank you. He’s not a threat plus I looked him up and know exactly where he lives! He surprised me with his call but overall I’m more likely to be a threat to him than he is to me 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            “I view Shellie as a (willing?) victim of GZ. ”

            For the life of me I’ll never understand why any woman would want anything to do with anyone like Fogen. And she praises him and what he stands for……I don’t think either of them are capable of love or emotion. SheLie’s dad was in prison for several years for burglary so was Fogen a step up ???

            What am I missing here.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. ShelLIE reminds me of a woman I met. On the outside, she seem to have a very good marriage. Then she told me that while dating, her future husband misled her to believe that his parents had influence and were filthy rich. At the same time, he blamed his previous relationship for why he had nothing to offer and bring to the marriage.

            At his first bond hearing, ShelLIE testified that she stopped working after their first year of marriage, and later that year (2012) they would be married 5 years.

            My curiosity is why they moved out of her mom’s house when she wasn’t working?

          • racerrodig says:

            There are so many questions with this group, where do you start???

          • lady2soothe says:


            was Fogen a step up

            Maybe not a step up, but familiarity.

            Shellie may be strangely “comfortable” because it’s all she’s ever known. Wo/men who have been abused usually have very low self-esteem, having been conditioned to think they somehow “deserve” the abuse, they’re really not worth someone better or better treatment. The dysfunction is *normal* to them.

          • racerrodig says:

            I guess it rolls back to the fact that you can’t apply logic to illogical minds. What we view as abnormal, criminal, immoral, unethical, they just gloss over as everyday life and events.

            When will I ever learn…

          • lady2soothe says:

            @ Racerrodig:

            Everyone has a different idea of what a normal family consists of. To some it might be Sunday Fried Chicken Dinner or Taco Tuesdays and a movie; others Sardi’s or Club 21 and the theatre, to others it maybe micro-wave hotdogs and lukewarm beans thrown across the room in an alcoholic fit.

            I’ve always loved Hannibal Lecter’s line from Silence of the Lambs “How do we begin to covet, Clarice?” “We begin by coveting what we see every day.” If Shellie (or any abused wo/man) has never seen an alternate lifestyle, they don’t know enough to covet it.

            Frequently (myself included) people marry someone like the opposite-sex parent; often (sub-consciously) thinking they can correct what was wrong in their childhood by working out those issues with said parent in the marriage. (Not sure that sentence/thought actually makes sense in writing).

          • cielo62 says:

            lady2soothe~ “Normal is just a setting on the washing machine.”


          • lady2soothe says:

            lol…. You got that right cielo62

          • racerrodig says:

            It makes sense, what makes no sense to me is how anyone can commit crimes, scams etc and think it’s normal and / or they can continue unabated.

          • lady2soothe says:


            See my comment to Lonnie Starr, it might explain a little better.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            There is a tendency to use our own “normal” lives and feeling as a template to understand the lives of others. That creates a picture that is so far “out of phase” that it is scarcely fathomable to the viewer. One keeps asking “why do they do that?” Without ever finding an answer, unless and until they come to realize that emotional/psychological imbalances can, and do create a whole different world for some people to reside in. People cannot be simply “grabbed and pulled out” of these worlds, it takes someone who can go in and lead them out. A daunting task to be sure and in some cases a probably impossible one as well.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have a brother that has issues. A scam artist from the jump and abusive in all relationships….and throw incredible road rage in. I’ve seen it first hand and still I am dumbfounded.

            I just heard Robbie the Racist isn’t in court today …….Job hunting maybe……..Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Over the weekend Robbie the Racist may have gone to hang out with his brothers’ supporters, the white supremacy crowd, but then, they don’t like gays so Robbie could have gotten mistreated by them.

          • racerrodig says:

            Mistreated….we can only hope. He’s supposed to be on TV again tonight or tomorrow. Nothing spells racist more that Robbie talking.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, if he was mistreated by his brothers hate filled supporters, he’ll be too conflicted to want to reach out to them again, that and a couple of black eyes are sure to keep him off the tube for a few more days at least.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It’s even worse than that… From what I’ve read, the abused person comes to believe that the abuse shows or means that they are cared for or about, so they actually seek out the abuse. Everyone has a bit of sadistic/masochistic components to them, but these are usually held in check by self esteem among other things. When there is a minor imbalance it usually leads to role play and such. But when there is a pathological problem these components get to go wild.

          • lady2soothe says:

            Lonnie Starr ….. Correct

            the abused person comes to believe that the abuse shows or means that they are cared for or about

            because it is drilled into the victim, such as: “The ONLY person who really loves and cares for you is me or else I wouldn’t take the time to correct your behavior” or “I’m doing you a favor by loving you because (fill in the blank) no one else would tolerate (fill in the blank)” etc. The victim after having been repeatedly told these lies eventually comes to believe they don’t deserve better and feels lucky at least one person loves them.

            Of course I can’t speak for everyone; but for myself and with all the victim’s I’ve dealt, I’d say

            actually seek out the abuse

            is the exception rather than the rule. Most victims fantasize about performing vile and humiliating acts on their abusers. Most victims devise highly involved and detailed murder plots where the abuser is tortured long and slow, brought to the brink of death, revived and repeated. Very few victim’s carry out their fantasies but it is the best escape one can hope for until ??? which authenticates

            Everyone has a bit of sadistic/masochistic components to them


            Shellie may be a victim or she may be a co-abuser who chooses to ignore, deny, minimize or defend the perpetrator, therefore becoming an enabler. Or, she may also be of the same mindset as GZ and be a co-predator

            Co-abusers fall into three categories. The first, is out and out support for the abuser, these people gain almost as much pleasure from the abuse as the abuser themselves. It’s abuse without comebacks or responsibility – they argue the case for the abuser because they want to hear more about the abuse – and then they take that information back to the abuser who offers them a little bit more – and so it goes on. In the process they hope to show the abuser what a good friend they are to them – and hope for some kind of reward. It usually stops when the victim or survivor of the abuse realizes what they are doing.

            These kind of people are potential abusers. They are learning the black art of abuse. Building up their confidence and seeking out there victim. If they don’t find a vulnerable person to abuse – they might give up – they will forever be co-abusers – but the real lesson they have learned from the abuser is where to look for victims. And survivors of therapy-abuse are perfect – how can you damage ‘A badly damaged person’ a bit more damage is not going to make no difference

            (black adolescent males)

            The second category of Co-Abusers – is those who have learned about the abuse but who have been told by the abuser or more likely the co-abuser to keep quiet. “You can’t change anything.” “What is done is done.” “It’s all for the best.”. It makes them feel uncomfortable – but no more than that. When the abuse finally happens they feel a degree of sympathy for the victim – but because they do not want to get involved – and distance themselves from the victim. In time they hope that the victim will understand – but the shame of knowing and not speaking out keeps them away from the victim.

            The third category of Co-Abusers are those who are on the side of the victim – or so it seems. More often than not they dislike the abuser – but have only limited sympathy for victim. The sort of things they would like to say are. “What do you expect.” “It’s your own fault.” “There must be something wrong with you.” .

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            actually seek out the abuse

            “is the exception rather than the rule. Most victims fantasize about performing vile and humiliating acts on their abusers.”

            Okay, maybe I should not have used the word “actually” since that makes what I was saying seem external, rather than internal. But the studies I’ve read about, a component was noticed that, the victim, who had become accustomed to abuse-as-a-sign of caring, would do things they had learned would provoke abuse, because that had become their now desired show of affection. A sort of twisted world where up becomes down and down, up. Not the victims fault, but simply the “pavlovian” result of this reversal of reward/response to punishment/response, over time.

            A less obvious version of the “Stockholm Syndrome”, but where the abuse itself replaces captors, but not the abuser him/her self.

            Anyway you’ve got it as far as I can see.

          • lady2soothe says:

            Lonnie Starr:

            A sort of twisted world where up becomes down and down, up.

            Yes, dead-on statement; enabling the abuser, to their own detriment.

            When does behavior become harassment, controlling, manipulative or emotionally abusive???? Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable????

          • Wow. First my deepest sympathy for the loss of your son. I can not imagine it. When my sister and her husband lost theirs, I think part of them was lost that day as well.

            In the women’s prison setting, although there has been some progression in the abuse syndrome, I observed anyway, that women who kill, often kill their batterers. These women are willing to do time because they had no choice, and they are totally understood in the inmate community.

            In Tennessee a couple of years ago, a Church of Christ preacher’s wife took a 12 gauge shotgun and shot her husband in the back in his sleep, killing him. Then, she took the kids and headed out. She was essentially set free (maybe 7 months in psych lockup) because he had been abusive.


            Oh my God, the photos! How they steal my heart. I am also reminded of the serenity at Serra Retreat, Point Dume and other places, but I never snapped a photo. Yours look like National Geographic. I am serious. Man, are they ever beautiful, I will cherish them, and visit in my mind, at least!

            Thank you so much.

          • lady2soothe says:

            @ Crane-Station…. My sympathy to you and your sister’s family. Just being close to someone who has lost a child is hard enough, but the family and extended family suffer grief untold which often times come out of nowhere and hits like a ton of bricks years down the line.

            Thank you, my son’s name is/was Kenya. 2½ weeks after his death, Christmas Day he would have had celebrated his 17th birthday. The first year we were too in much shock, it was the 2nd year which really hit us hard, so I imagine once this is over the Martin/Fulton Family will begin to experience incredible earth shattering heartbreak which will inevitably slam their emotions into tiny bits.

            Trayvon ‘s story is so very close to my heart. As I told the Professor a few months ago:

            I have 3 sons and 2 daughters all of mixed decent (Metizo and Black). 1993 my middle son was killed in a rollover Dec. 9th just 2½ weeks before his 17th birthday (Christmas day). My youngest AJ (Feb. 5th same as Trayvon’s birthday but 1983) was shot twice while being robbed (no one was ever arrested – and yes AJ survived). I know what it feels like to get *that call* so I have enormous compassion for the Martin/Fulton Family and feel it is my duty to defend them and other murder victim’s families in whatever way God gives me. If just posting comments on HP or infrequently on your blog helps them, I benefit too benefit in closure and forgiveness.

            Had a lot of heartbreak this past week, AJ for me (another post) and my God-daughter, the mother of the child. The photos of Jacque’s beautiful hair is just a minute change she’s made in the past year since she left CO. She held a 4.0 GPA from kindergarten thru 12th. This makes me sick.

            Closing on a better note: My pleasure, I’m glad the photos bring back happy memories. I take my camera everywhere with me and I have 2 friends who are professional photographers so I trade my bakery goods for their expertize!

        • lady2soothe says:

          Just checked…. Containment up to 75% unfortunately 4,600 people still unable to return home.

          Now, Denver is a different story altogether. I actually enjoy the excitement but then again I am a native of Los Angeles and thoroughly enjoy the crowds, lights and activity. The one thing(s) I dislike about Denver is the cold and worse still, brushing snow off the car and driving on ice, but that would go for the east coast too.

          Mountains can be beautiful but it doesn’t even come close in comparison to the serenity of the ocean.

      • @lady2soothe

        Oh no! Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear of this. I wonder, what on earth, this is heartbreaking.

        And on your son, the Martins, and my nephew…Odd they were all very near the same age. My nephew was 2 months shy of 17, when he and his girlfriend were murdered in Indiana, in an unsolved case from 1985. As a family, we limped along in our individual and collective agony for years. I know what you mean about the process, and I ache for what pain families have to live with, when a child is lost. It’s forever a life before, and then a life after. Many don’t understand this at all. That’s what irked me today about the arrogant sanctimonious PJ flipping it off with a “people get killed all the time, I get desensitized to it.”

        Who the hell says stuff like that?

        • lady2soothe says:


          Many years ago I read a statistical article stating 14-18 year old boys are the most likely to end up abducted and or murdered because they feel no one can overpower them (invincible). Of course I know nothing about your nephew, I do know Kenya was driving too fast (invincible?) and rolled the car, and possibly Trayvon after running then being surprised when GZ snuck up with gun in hand, Trayvon had no other choice but to utter in as bold a voice as he could muster “what you following me for?”

          Who the hell says stuff like that?

          People like the Z Family who have no conscience or compassion.

          At Kenya’s funeral my sister-in-law said to her brother, my now ex-husband who was sobbing

          “You need to suck it up, you still have all those other kids”

          that statement alone reinforced what I’d always instinctively known about her. BITCH

          Yes, people do get killed all the time, yes we will all die eventually, but to blow off death, especially that of a child, karma will get her!

          • Oh, I agree with you totally. I don’t know how these words form on the lips. On my nephew, here is the article, although I cannot read it, I have posted it for others. We have had various theories, but no evidence, unfortunately, and I am nearly certain the parents would not be able to handle it, even if we did. The girl’s mother died of a broken heart, on Christmas Eve, the following year.

            Ethan was the president of his junior class.


          • lady2soothe says:


            I see why you can’t read the article, to have to take in the details, even though well written and tempered is disgusting. What a horrendous crime. I cannot fathom what would possess someone to commit such an atrocity.

            Is it worse not knowing or worse to know and not be able to doing anything????

          • I really don’t know today. More and more as I go along, I have to believe we will somehow join our loved one someday, in spirit together, I guess it is that realm, that I care about.
            People who do these things, there is a hell of some form for them, I think.

  20. Malisha says:

    Disrespect is the whole package here.

    Started with police in Sanford disrespecting the citizens’ right to law enforcement and public safety and protection.

    Developed into the HOA disrespecting the rights of ordinary people to be free of gestapo-like harassment.

    Encouraged Fogen disrespecting Trayvon Martin’s life interest.

    Gave rise to the police and Wolfinger’s office disrespecting the mandate of their own sworn responsibilities.

    UNTIL a public outcry demanded respect for the law, at which point Corey was appointed and did the job the Florida Constitution demands.

    And then O’Mara and West and their band of toxic tongues disrespected all the elements of what it takes to be a decent American. ALL of them.

    So here we are. This is where disrespect has brought us. And I am counting on Judge Deborah Nelson to restore respect to the laws of the State of Florida and those federal laws that apply, thanks to the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.

    • We have never lived in Florida, but are getting the feeling of a situation that some may call ‘hometowning.’ In other words, the state lawyers are not ‘from’ there. I don’t know Florida well enough to announce that Orlando and Jacksonville are not happily married, but from an outsider’s point of view, it looks like one or two ‘turf battles’ going on, kind of like what one might see, for example, when the FBI takes over a local police agency’s big case.

      Is that tin foil hat stuff, or is it a legit hunch? (We have witnessed that sort of dynamic here, in the United States of Western Kentucky, for example)

      • Tzar says:

        Well you don’t know which way the streets run!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dunno, Crane. I

        Florida is huge, and not like, say, Indiana where basketball rivalries define and impact just about everything else.

        In South Flolrida, Dade, Broward and the Palm Beaches are in close proximity, yet worlds apart.

        Not sure there’s any huge rivalry going on among Duval, Orange and/or Seminole counties. Plus so many residents are from somewhere else that they barely know the names of nearby towns much less adjacent counties.

        It’s worth noting that the exceedingly UNPOPULAR GOP Gov. Rick Scott (nobody admits to voting for him, but apparently they did in central, northern regions) tapped Corey to take over the case. That was after clueless and likely crooked Norm Wolfinger bailed as Seminole/Duval state attorney due to sealed “personal” concerns after failing to charge Fogen. This could be the only intelligent thing Scott has done in his entire gubernatorial term.

        Likely there are turf battles going on in legal-political circles, but not sure whether average joe voters and/or PJs are into this.

        Will former Florida GOP Gov. Charlie Crist, he of the perpetual suntan (who turned independent but lost in a U.S. Senate race and who now has turned Democrat) run against Scott for governor, and will the Fogen machinations play a role?

        Somehow I don’t think Seminole County jurors are going to care that BDLR and Guy are from Jax.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I lived in a SW state for 36 years that is comparable to Florida in its white Republican mentality, (and the county I lived in for the last of those 17 years had open KKK rallies as late as the 1920s). There were definitely some ideological tug of wars going on there (still are!) between various counties or municipalities and the state over various issues. So my perception is the same for FL. I think the same hometowning phenomena probably happens in a lot of states when there’s a big difference in outlook between conservative rural / surburban residents and the more sophisticated and liberal urban residents. Or sometimes there’s just a big mash-up of values with strange bedfellows on some issues.

        • I had a Frankfort attorney tell me that if I was going to write about my legal case, to separate the ‘rest of Kentucky’ from Western Kentucky. I am dead serious, so we see the phenomenon here, for sure. It’s more like two or three states.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Correction, I was wrong: Norm Wolfinger, rumored to be Senior’s pal, was state attorney for Seminole/Brevard, not as I stated earlier.

    • ronald says:

      Thank you!!!

    • Jun says:

      They are forcing the state of Florida to become insecure

      So Team Fogen, can go where the sun do not shine

  21. From Lady2Soothe:

    I don’t use Twitter so I’m not sure about the hashtags. I’ll check with my niece, she’s on the Board of Directors with Memorial Hospital and School District 20 or 49 (not sure which).

    My daughter, son, niece, sister, brother and friends are all fine, most everyone lives south of the fire… Thank you for your kind thoughts.

    #COfire — Catchall for Colorado wildfire information

    #TreasureFire — The Treasure fire is near Leadville (This is closer to MMP)

    LIVE UPDATES: Evacuation zones http://gazette.com/black-forest-fire-evacuation-map/article/1502207

    Destroyed homes: http://bit.ly/14wdoOR

    [Moderator: I edited your comment to remove your home address]


  22. ronald says:

    Thank you!!

  23. diary73 says:

    Repost from other thread: I will be in the Sanford area tomorrow – still on vacation. Does anyone have information about the Trayvon Martin Memorial? I want to visit. Is anyone here in the Orlando/Sanford area? I would love to meet some of you. Today, I am in Deerfield and would enjoy meeting anyone here.

    • disappointed says:

      Sorry to say no, wish I could be there to meet you and just to show love and support to the whole Fulton/Martin family. Enjoy and if you do find Memorial could you take pictures so that Fred could put them up.
      *Fred only if you want. Not trying to smash toes here, just a suggestion. 🙂

  24. ic2fools says:

    Safe to say Omaras’ disrespect for Judicial Ethics, Judicial System, Judge Nelson and his horrible smear attacks of Trayvon that he can not even consider the three categories Professor has written for us.

    Omara knows defense can not prevail, left with only one option to seat one or two jurors whose minds will not change regardless overwhelming evidence stalemating the jury creating a Hung Jury.

    I hate to say this but I doubt if he’ll put fogen on the stand and attempt to argue self defense. I believe Omara will do his best to continue his smear attack on Trayvon during trial. Omara closing argument will be a continuation of what we have recently seen blaming Trayvon.

    Desperate to contain the saran wrapped racists keeping them from leaking and absorbing the facts of the case, actually thinking and realizing defense is lying from counsel to the defendant fogen.

    I have come to this conclusion since watching last weeks jury selection realizing defense focus questions generally lead back to the most recent photos and coverage. For the purpose to see just how much and how many PJs’ based their opinions on the lies he(omara) told, ergo how deep is the posion. To be used as defense method to select or exempt PJs’.

    just my opinion….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “Desperate to contain the saran wrapped racists keeping them from leaking and absorbing the facts of the case, actually thinking and realizing defense is lying from counsel to the defendant fogen.”

      Great analogy and metaphor!

    • I believe Omara will do his best to continue his smear attack on Trayvon during trial. Omara closing argument will be a continuation of what we have recently seen blaming Trayvon.

      Not a good idea.

      Bernie will object, if O’Mara argues facts that are not evidence, and the judge will remind the jury that arguments of counsel are not evidence. She will tell them to disregard anything that is not supported by the evidence admitted in court.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Hello All and Happy Fathers Day to all the daddy’s out there!

        Will the HOA settlement come up during the proceedings?

        Does the state have more evidence that the defense is aware of but did not release it because it does not look good for the killer?

        Can the murderer really claim self defense and not take the stand to explain?

        • I’m waiting to see the phone logs and hear what the witnesses have to say about their conversations with the defendant before and after the shooting.

          Defendant pretty much has to testify to back up his claim of self-defense.

      • ic2fools says:

        Thanks Professor for putting my mind at ease. That was my concern, Omara trying to get a hung jury.

      • bettykath says:

        I think MOM’s plan is to use cross-examination to make the self-defense claim so that fogen doesn’t have to testify. I also think that BDLR will use the exhibits and witnesses and questions that will foil MOM’s plan. I really, really want to watch fogen tell a story. I can’t imagine which one he’ll pick since sites such as this one have shown them all to be impossible.

      • Malisha says:

        Bettykath, I don’t think Fogen can “choose” a story and stick to it. He will be questioned so he will be making up crap as he goes along; he can’t do that when there is a reality-check happening; he’s dead meat!

      • bettykath says:



      • bettykath says:

        I think MOM is expecting BDLR to use one or more of the various interviews or the walk-thru or the voice stress interview or some other bit that can be used to show one or another of fogen’s stories that claim self-defense. BDLR doesn’t need to do this. He just needs to show the crime, the condition of Trayvon’s body (autopsy report), the condition of fogen’s body (EMT report and Physician Assistant report) and who did it with depraved indifference (or whatever the requirement for 2nd degree murder). Of all of fogen’s statements/interviews, BDLR doesn’t need to use much more than the NEN call to show fogen’s state of mind. He will carefully keep all references to self-defense out of the state’s presentation. It will then be up to the defense to show self-defense.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        I would like the dash cam recordings. They record the sound inside the police vehicles. I would love to hear what GZ was saying and to whom, while he was waiting in Smith’s car.

        Do you think there is a chance they will surface?

    • There’s gotta be a Vegas Odds going on whether or not GZ will take the stand. He is kind of like that guy in the Gary Larson Far Side Cartoon, ‘Damned if you do, damned if you don’t,’ where the devil is poking the guy with a pitchfork, saying, “C’mon, c’mon, it’s one or the other.”

      I can see him getting creamed either way.

      Short version: He’s fucked.

      • cielo62 says:

        Crane~ To have even half a snowflake’s chance in Texas in August, he HAS to take the stand and introduce self-defense.  Otherwise, what will the jury have to say? They CAN’T just GIVE him self-defense as an excuse; he has to claim it and prove it. I expect to see him take the stand, if for no other reason than his huge ego believing he can still charm his way out of this mess.


        • I happen to agree that he will, but this court stuff can be very unpredictable. BTW, I absolutely love colloquialisms, just added another to my list, thank you.

          Unrelated to chance, my larger-than-life father, the patriarch, who is ninety, used to say, “When I say Frog, you’d better say How high do I jump.”

          (His roots are Missouri, mostly)

      • ic2fools says:

        @Crane i also should have said add auntie bjw videos with Papas;

        1 fogen said Trayon was hoodie was grey. how would he know that? it was raining by that time his hoodie was wet and became grey: so fogen saw him before. we see in later pics of Trayvons’ hoodie it is light grey (dry)

        let’s start here thank you Papa :

        2 fogen said he got out to get and address, here he says he went to meet an officer he called:

        3 fogen said shellie called mark who was there

        4 now check this out fogen said they were wrestling when his jacket came up, but reenactment fogen head was getting bashed:

        thank you auntiebjw

        5 fogen can’t take the stand, Bernies’ gonna rip him a new one

        6. 2/26/2012 joonyer tweeted b/c TM was walking home

        7 fogen and oysterboy both said its not your gun its the gun. watch closely fogen/oysterboy exact same gestures:

        oysterboy was there!

        thanks Crane and all who watched fogen ever evolving lies only crazy people support.

        • Thank you for these reminders. See, but, in a self defense case, it kind of seems to me like he has to take the stand, that’s where I get hung up. Piled high and deep? Yes. But he (or maybe his lawyer) seems to 1) think the passing public just fell off the dum dum truck and 2) is never shy about piling more on.

          I don’t know what they’ll do. Never seen a case quite this weird (and I have seen a lot of different cases in my personal experience.)

    • ic2fools says:

      Gotta be Crane, somebody somewhere has gambled on this. Only caring about the financial outcome.

      I’ll bet on the Short Version:

      Earlier I was watching Papa stuff before I began to research. Several of his videos show fogens’, ostermans’ and joonyers’ fuckups’ ‘ehem freudian slips. 🙂

      oysterboy was there for sure, fogen said ‘shellie called mark my friend who was there in an interview and dumbass joonyer tweeted 2/26 Trayvon was walking home. oysterboy on dr. phil interview eyes were never relaxed and he kept repeating i wasn’t there. his description of crime sound more like he was there than just repeating his friends words.

      remeber gilbreth at bond hearing ‘we have mr. fogen statements, we have the shell casings and we had mr. martins body.

      right there we have mr. fogen statements is the foundation for facts.

      Crane i want to post a few of Papas’ videos, when you see them together, well fogens’ fucked, o’mara knows it and why hes’ trying to as much damage as he can.

  25. boyd says:

    I can only qualify as a Tweener, for sure I am not a follower, and I don’t like dealing with drama at work , have turned down a couple of leader jobs.

    • bettykath says:

      I’m a leader or a tweener, depending on the situation. In a jury with a somewhat competent foreperson, I’d be more formidable as a tweener. If the foreperson weren’t competent, I’d be a leader.

  26. I probably should have mentioned the white sheet juror. You know, the KKK-type juror. The racist who hides behind a sheet.

    This person will vote NG because he or she believes the racist narrative invented by the defendant, his family, and the defense team.

    Everyone should watch out for this type of juror.

    • boyd says:

      I can see that. I’d watch for the ones who say they don’t know much but also mention the protests in the case. They have been following the case

    • Malisha says:

      I beg to differ on a little point, Professor. I think this person would vote NG not because he BELIEVES Fogen’s bullcrap but because he would have lied and said the same bullcrap himSELF and he would have killed Trayvon just a self-righteously and just as free of ordinary human guilt (or even doubt) as Fogen and he does not think there should be a law against someone like HIM killing someone like Trayvon so he would be a traitor to his country and a betrayor of his nation’s laws to do so. He’s the type of juror whose peers are just the people who cause all wars in the world, no matter what country they come from.

      • Yes, I agree that this is a reason why white-sheet voters would vote NG, probably the predominant reason since GZ now identifies himself as Afro-Peruvian.

      • KA says:

        My hope is they will never hear it [the bullcrap].

        I am, more and more, convinced he will not testify. Jr. said as much last week with one of his statements.

        Those injuries are not going to get him very far in a narrative I think…

    • I believe that they would vote not guilty, not because they believe the defendant’s story, but because they don’t want to see black people get a “win”. This falls in line with my belief on the Alabama Church Bombing and Emmitt Till not guilty verdicts. There was no mistaking who were responsible and the jury still said not guilty.

      We’re in different times right now, but racists don’t change. Bigots will still vote not guilty even with video tape simply because they don’t want this to be justice for black people.

    • Judy75201 says:

      And don’t forget the “2nd Amendment Patriots”. They know fogen is guilty, but don’t care because they, in their meth-induced paranoia (or GOP superiority entitlement complex, for the other half of the equation–take your pick), believe “I’ll be damned if anyone’s gunna take MY guns away!!!”

      After all, Trayvon was only a black boy. Pffffft spit!

  27. Yorazigo says:

    Question: My understanding of peremptory challenge is that Prosecution or Defense do not need to give a reason to dismiss juror. If Defense wanted to dismiss a black person could they use a peremptory w/o any explanation if they had not previously found cause?
    I’ve been reading your blog since very early in the case. Thank you for all your hard work and teaching on the law. I’ve sent a contribution today as small token of appreciation.

  28. Two sides to a story says:

    Happy Father’s Day, guys. Hope your day is full of sunshine and rose- er, beer? Baseball? XOXO

  29. Malisha says:

    I was just laughing: If I lived in Sanford and got a summons for the jury. They’d ask if I read a lot about this case and I’d say, “well I’ve read Leatherman and then I’ve read Dumbkof Dershowitz and Airhead Jeralyn if that’s what you mean.” And then they’d ask if I could be fair and make up my mind based only on the evidence and without bias and I’d have to say: “Of course. Who would ever believe someone like Dershowitz or Jeralyn when the evidence of guilt is overwhelming beyond a ghost of a shadow of a doubt?” And O’Mara would move to have me struck for cause and I’d have to shout, “Shtruck, Shtruck, your punk client should have stayed in his damned about-to-be-repossessed shtruck, Loser!”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Heck, you could look right into Fogen’s eyes and shout that! 😛

      • racerrodig says:

        I’d be asking O’ Mara questions…like “what ever happened with that “I’m getting an address” thing….Facts sir…tell it with facts..oh and do you have a witness to detail the angle of the bullet trajectory…..?? and needless to say I need some facts about the utter lack of defensive wounds on both the defendant & the victim.

        Now as to the misalignment of the holes in the victims clothing and the devastating entry wound, can that be explained without using the word gravity…..speaking of Sir Issac Newton, I will need a through explanation as to why there was no blood pooled on the back of your clients head and the blood ran towards his ears and chin. It’s not much to ask I’m sure.

        Now sir, can you have your client explain to me how he has no sign of any scrape wounds, you know, being he says his head was pounded on the concrete…see, I’ve fallen off a bike in my years and those scrapes have a very distinct look….so all I ask is an explanation as to why he’s so fortunate no to have any.

        Of course I’ll rely heavily on the phone records of the defendant, his wife, his friends Taaffe & Oystercult….

        Now Mr. O’ Mara, does you client have a medical record of his alleged broken nose and that miracle recovery of the swelling as shown in all those pictures and the cop shop, or was that God at work in all his glory ?? Hmmmmm

        Now the shell casing, your client says he was knocked down at the T part of the dog walk, so I need something to sell me on this one (Ppppffffffttttt under breath)

        Facts sir……sell me with facts since I’m just your average guy and I need the facts…..don’t worry about how many guns I do or do not own, don’t worry about anything but telling me the facts and the truth….no bs….I can smell that miles away….

    • Trained Observer says:

      Was this deadbeat behind in his shtruck payments, too? Sigh.

      • racerrodig says:

        Only 2 months…..same as SheLie’s car…….and the rent…and the credit cards….but he did have $16.37 in the checking acct.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        A whole lot of groceries that 16.00 was going to by, 20 packs of top ramin and 10 packages of kool-aide. They really thought they were going to have the good life when that Peter Pan money started rolling in. Maybe they need to grow up, there is not going to be a happily ever ending to their fairytale. Foggen will forever been known as a murderer, and as long as Shellie stays with him, people will look at her with discust and wonder how she can sleep with a child molester. Get a life Shellie, your cutie is not Prince Charming and you will never be Cinderella. Maybe someday you’ll mature and understand that there are somethings in life that all the money you have cannot buy.

    • boyd says:

      forget Jeralyn, will never read her ever. She’s pro pot, but Trayvon smoking pot hep makes him a thug is A-ok with her..

      it’s truly unfockingbelieveable they have read his written statement and thought nothing strange about it. We have two parties and according to one party they’re both doing really crazy stuff and I’m supposed to buy it.

      • Malisha says:

        Not only that is troublesome about Jeralyn’s take on it, but her b*tchiness to those who do not agree with her is striking and in view of her history (unless what we think is her history is simply propaganda without factual evidence) it’s creepy that a person who appeared to be a flexible intellectual liberal could have crawled under a rock she did not appear to have previously crawled OUT FROM UNDER.

        She’s a piece of work. Can’t figure her out! Dumb and offensive with respect to this case, not totally evident why.

      • Tee says:

        Do you know what I find to be funny. I live in a beautiful home in a so called upper middle class neighbourhood. The homes sell for we’ll over a million dollars, kids go to private school and kids play rec sports on the weekend, most go to church on Sunday, we even have a bible class offered as a high school course. Now here is what I don’t understand, If Trayvon was a thug for smoking weed, I wonder what they would call the kids where I live. While there parents are at work they are skipping school drinking, having sex and not only do they smoke marijuna everyday they use every drug known. I know this because I’m a stay at home mom and I see and hear it all. I wonder do the world look at these kids that have to go to rehab, get arrested for underage drinking, and those who sneak out at night are those kids considered thugs too. Or is this just reserved for black teenagers.

        • cielo62 says:

          Tee~ Unfortunately, I think you know the answer to that question. 😦  That’s the wonderful thing about Houston! They can be “black thugs”, “illegal aliens” or “poor white trash.” We can hate everybody!


        • racerrodig says:

          ” Or is this just reserved for black teenagers.” As a 57 year old white male, I can say that’s what they think. I can guarantee every one of them was pot smoker, cut school, got their girlfriend pregnant, own an illegal gun (and used it at some point) failed in school, has a menial job, buys moonshine and probably has a flat tire on their house as we speak.

          Most of them think the movie “White Lightning:” is great drama…

      • Soulcatcher says:

        I don’t know if you read and article I posted about a middle aged white man who reflects back on his teen days. He talks about smoking pot, and he managed to stay out of jail, chalking it all up to being lucky.

        Through the years he began to notice the percentage of AA’s locked up vs whites for the same thing he did as a teen, and it was then that he realized it had nothing to do with luck and had everything to do with being black or white.

        He says now looking back, he wishes he could say he was lucky for not being jailed, but he knows that isn’t the case.

      • Jun says:

        So basically, in laymen’s terms, my terms

        She’s full of crap

        Oh well, Trayvon was not perfect, but at least he does not go around smearing the memory of dead murdered victims, act like a hypocrite, or attack or murder anyone, much like what Jeralyn is doing

        Anyways, according to her reasoning, Jeralyn is a thug, since she likes smoking pot, and she carries a gun and has photos of a gun, so in her reasoning, Fogen would be allowed to kill her

    • abbyj says:

      A great laugh from your post, and a big ^5!!!

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I could almost hear you spit out the “punk”. You would be the media hit of the day.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha- LOL! The bailiffs would move in quickly while you continued to enlighten the jury pool. “Where’s the blood! Where’re the black eyes?!”


      • Malisha says:

        “AND SHE’S OFF!” I would be using the moment:

        “Where did he get that f*cking schruck anyway, huh? Daddy give it to him? Oh so he bought it with the thousand-dollar-apiece bribes he collected as a VIRGINIA MAGISTRATE to sign warrants with no affidavits attached, right? Only 23 or 24 of those and babyboy’s got wheels, right? HA HA HA HA HA H HA!! OUCH OUCH! I LOVE IT when you talk stupid! Or Gladys sell a few judgments over in the clerk’s office? HA HA HA why don’t you pay your rent, assh0le, PAY RENT, freeloader, schemer! You’re going where you don’t need to pay rent any more anyway and when your landlord approaches you — you won’t HAVE to call the police because he will BE the poh-leece, murderer! Don’t like it? Oh boo hoo f*ckin-hooo! Make the little twitchy-lip thing, teletubby! Do the little prissylips, you unGodly murderous coward you! Come on, gimme that little supercilious smirk one more time before some of your new neighbors ask you to organize a cell-block-watch without a damn clipboard, creep!”

        By then would they have me on the floor in cuffs?

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ “on the floor in cuffs” YES! But as long as they don’t put duct tape over your mouth, you’d still be laying it out there! “made you feel like a big man, huh? Such a tiny kel-tec for such a huge asshole like you, picking on KIDS, yeah a KID like you TOLD THE NEN OPERATOR! UNARMED kid with nothing but snacks! What about the DNA, Georgie! NO DNA ON TRAYVON, you useless piece of cowardly bile! GET IN THE BOX! GET IN THE BOX!” Oh yeah, that would make legal highlights for decades to come! 🙂


      • Two sides to a story says:

        LOLOL! Hmm, maybe not the cuffs, but you’d be ordered out of the courtroom with the bailiff following close behind. Happened to me once when I gave a corrupt female judge an earful during an acquaintance’s custody case . . . That judge eventually had many judicial complaints on record but is still working in the same county, sad to say. Not that I’m comparing her to Judge Nelson, who seems strict but fair. The judge I’m talking about went to the same church with the opposing lawyer and were conspiring with the father against the mother in the case.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        *went to the same church with the opposing lawyer AND the father, who was an abuser who hid behind his fundamentalist religion* The poor student mother went into court without an attorney and they walked all over her with the judge’s help.

      • disappointed says:

        This group right here, get together and right this “fiction” version, as sad as this case is Fogen is way past due for his scolding. Obviously his parents do not have what it takes to be a parent and teach their adult children not to F*CK with other people’s babies! Shame on them.
        *fiction version of what happened in jury selection..

      • That’s the kind of jail time that you could wear like a badge. Standing ovation, plus a viral YouTube. Glorious. Let me read…30 days for contempt…no, wait, Oh, ouch! Sixty. LOL.

      • Malisha says:

        TwoSides, I believe every word you said.

        Judge Donna Fields-Goldstein from Los Angeles got a SECRET PETITION from a step-mother who was not even a party to a custody case and the damn thing was not served or filed but was sent directly to the judge — 52 pages — and the Judge kept it in her chambers for eight (8) months and GRANTED IT without notice and still was hiding it and a clerk made a mistake so the Mom found it. THEN she moved to recuse that liar-schemer-corrupt judge and the crazy [word omitted] refused to step down and sent the “step-mother’s petition on why you should change custody” back to the “litigant” (who was NOT a party) and when a complaint was filed against her with the Judicial Ethics Board she got some insider to throw the complaint out and only AFTER THAT was it discovered that she took a hundred thousand dollars for her actions in that case (it could never be proven because the court clerk who notified the attorney about it refused to testify and the money transfer was laundered through the step-mother’s own money-laundering business!). Handed a child over to a dangerous family, one of the other kids in which got KILLED! (Still listed as an “unsolved murder.”) Case went cold so quickly that it is obvious money was involved.

        Don’t get me started. Some of these judges are so corrupt they do it WITHOUT getting paid! They just like to exercise power and put their foot on somebody’s neck and see the wail.

        Some of these judges are so corrupt they make Syrian and Iranian jurists look like saints. PFEW! Stinks to high heaven!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Holy crap, Malisha. I can only hope karma caught up to that old bat.

      • Malisha says:

        Fields-Goldstein? Karma didn’t catch up with her from any public source as far as I know. And why? In LA, the judges have a special bank account (I am not making this up) where the attorneys put their bribes. It bears the Tax i.d. number of the COUNTY OF L.A. Attorney Richard Fine who busted this very obvious corruption was jailed for “contempt” for over a year in solitary without a hearing and without charges. There is no end to their corruption. Nobody should assume (when seeing horrors that take place against activists in third world countries) that it “can’t happen here.” And Fine only discovered this by accident in the course of his work as a real estate lawyer.

        The worst class of people we have in our society is OUR JUDGES.

    • ic2fools says:

      Good one Malisha!

  30. disappointed says:

    I have not read the new post. Today I am going through statements making sure I have not missed anything. Who is witness 10? I cannot find their statement. Audio or anything. Or do the police usually go out of order? Also who are witness 23-30 and why no statements? I am looking at axiomamnesia. Hopefully if you all answer I am not going to feel stupid because I should know who they are. :/

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I believe they removed some numbers when those people were rejected as witnesses, but someone who knows better than I will come along and give you a better answer.

  31. Xena says:

    (Gotta read again to absorb it.)

    THANKS PROFESSOR! Happy Father’s Day!

  32. Ty Flair says:

    Thank you Sir and Happy Father Day to You also.

    • cielo62 says:

      On a MUCH LIGHTER note:

        • ic2fools says:


          I’m still smiling, he got his toes painted too.

          thanks for a great video.

          • parrot says:

            Hats off to Cielo62 who posted it.

          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ there a series of great commercials like that for a Father’s Initiative. (Take Time to be a Dad Today).THAT one was my favorite, but there’s one where the dad plays Jedi Knight with his son, and another one where a man teaches his daughter to do cheerleading. Sociologically, I think we’re seeing more nurturing fathers on TV and commercials, and I LOVE it!


      • ic2fools says:

        Ah cielo, I did couldn’t help myself. Your so right its’ refreshing to see these type commercials.

        I enjoyed the double dutch dad, the cheerleader dad was way too funny.

        Appreciate you posting and all, I miss my dad more than usual today.

        • cielo62 says:

          i2fools~ (((((((hugs)))))))   BTW, have you seen this one? http://youtu.be/U3fq3ioUi7Q


          • ic2fools says:

            No, thanks to you I just screamed HAHA! whoo that was a stream, lol lol lol. you a mess lol lol lol

            I’m watching a documentary about Voynich_manuscript. Talk about a laugh break lol lol lol

          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ (grin) glad I could make ya smile! Again, what I liked was it was the DAD that changed the diaper. Many, MANY times it’s still the mom’s job. Little by little paradigms change. I’m not saying emasculate or feminize men, but allow men to be nurturing in the way that is masculine, that is strong. How goes that saying? No one stands taller than when they bend down to help a child? Anyway, happy father’s day and many warm memories for you.


          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ WOW! The Voynich manuscript. In the Middle Ages, many trades kept their trade secrets by employing such things as codes, and passing down knowledge from Master to Apprentice. FASCINATING that the plants are unknown species. Is this on the History Channel?


      • racerrodig says:

        Nothing like being a dad !! Painted fingernails and all !!

      • ic2fools says:

        I’m watching it on youtube, it was aired on the history channel

        Scribd.com has 330 page book written by Gerry Kennedy and Rob Churchill, seems interesting reading with some illustration:

        sorry so long to reply, but this show is awesome, I do see one plant in the book looks like a daffodil they did a close screenshot of.

        • cielo62 says:

          ic2fools~ I saw a reproduction of that book when I was a grad student working at the rare book room of the medical library. It was fascinating! I always assumed the language was Greek or Arabic. The flowers all looked weird to me, but then again, I always thought Audobon’s birds were a little strange. IIRC daffodils DO have several medicinal properties. I’ll look for that on youtube. I LOVE stuff like that! Thanks! Look up the Codex Gigas if interesting books are a hobby of yours. Also on youtube.


      • That was so sweet, and for some reason I am reminded of this ad, that won an Oscar, I believe (note the look on the father’s face):


        • cielo62 says:

          Crane~ AWWWW… That was sweet. It made me very sad; we just lost a 2nd grader to cancer just 2 days ago. I told his teacher because I know he (my co-worker and friend) doesn’t read school emails during breaks. He was glad I told him. I hate to bring bad news. Parents should not lose a child, for ANY reason, which is why I thrice curse that murderer and wait for justice.


          • Oh no cielo! So sorry to hear this. So young….words fail. Good that you told his teacher.

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane~ yeah, he was glad, too. He’s another young man I really like. He told me that he thinks of me as his older sister. 🙂  I guess I feel a little protective. He’s 21 years my junior; coulda been my kid, if I had decided to ever have any.

            TOTALLY OFF TOPIC, but did you ever see this? I posted it for you months ago: 


          • OMG, I missed that, thank you so much! Wow, there is a whole ‘nother story behind our own African Grey parrot named Pepper, but that may be for another day. This video is so lovely and fun. Parrot driving the car around like he owns the damn place, too fun!

      • ic2fools says:

        cielo right before the 25.45 mark after paint testing i immediately thought of artists of the era and then the lady in red began talking about DaVinci. gosh i’m loving this.

        i’ll check out Codex. i got chills reading how you were able at least see a reproduction. thanks for sharing . nah, i’m a all around history buff, just love it.

        lol lol back to dads and diapers.

        gurl you haven’t seen my son change a diaper at 3am.. i prayed for my gransons’ twig and berries.

        poor babi, glad his nana had visited. exhausted my son said ‘mama he won’t stop crying’ i whispered, ‘dam son the diaper its the diaper i believe its’ a bit too snug’. let’s loosen it up a bit. couple lessons from mom and my son is a diaper changing champ half sleep and all. proud mama moment

        • cielo62 says:

          ic2fools~ LOL! That was hysterical! “Twig and berries”! You gotta take some credit, though. He DIDN’T say, “Ma, could you PLEASE change this?” It takes a special man to be a daddy. No wonder we take at least ONE day to recognize that. 🙂  


      • fauxmccoy says:

        adorable cielo — so glad i had a dad who would do such things as well as a husband who does so for his girls. 🙂 now, back to my regularly scheduled program of celebrating daddy’s day.

  33. This is looking like a potential nightmare jury for the defense.

    • The defense needs a jury full of racists because no one else will believe the defendant’s ridiculous story.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Would delight in seeing what sort of incendiary things have been written on questionnaires of those PJs already dismissed. Am biased, but I suspect Fogen supporters would be more inclined to think the “q” would be an opportunity to convey their attitude and butter up the defense, little realizing they’d get automatically tossed.

      • BLISS says:

        Glory be to God,he wont let that happen.

    • Rachael says:

      where does their jury consulrant come in?

      • He was seated at counsel table last week advising O’Mara and West and explaining what was going on to GZ.

        I assume he will be back this week and probably meeting with them over the weekend.

      • Momma says:

        Professor, do you know if the jury consultant, Hirschhorn, will be with the defense team throughout the trial or only during jury selection?

        • I imagine it would only be during jury selection.

          • ic2fools says:

            Good and hope more parents report, write and email to make this issue know. One step towards putting an end to Zporters harassing negligent actions.

          • ic2fools says:

            @Professor I hope I ask these questions right. After watching O’Mara reaction to West I wondered:

            At this point in the proceedings can O’Mara try to remove West?

            Any legal options for West if he chooses to withdraw as co-counsel?

            If either or the above happens can O’Mara find a replacement as co-counsel. If the price is right could that replacement be Robert Hirschhorn?

            Thank you.

          • West cannot withdraw or get out of the case without Judge Nelson’s approval and she is not going to grant a continuance for another lawyer to get up to speed to replace him. I doubt Hirschorn was working for free or would be willing to work for free, so I doubt he is willing to replace West.

            If West is fired or if he has to drop out due to a medical emergency, O’Mara will probably have to solo the rest of the way.


      • Rachael says:

        I understand, but what does he actually do in terms of helping them select the jury?

      • Momma says:

        Rachael, I have been reading articles at Hirschhorns website and it very much reminds me of the movie Runaway Jury.

      • ic2fools says:

        excuse me my reply is in the wrong place, sorry ya’ll.

      • ic2fools says:


        If West is fired or if he has to drop out due to a medical emergency, O’Mara will probably have to solo the rest of the way.


        I shouldn’t be smiling at the fact O’mara may be solo. The ways things are lately it seems he’s already solo. O’Mara is not cut for the pressure.

        • Speaking of pressure, this ain’t nothing yet.

          It really isn’t.

          The real pressure doesn’t start until opening statements.

          Then it climbs precipitously until you think you’re going to die.

          And then it gets worse.

          Wait until we are waiting on a verdict.f

          • cielo62 says:

            masonblue~ Another excellent reason I could never do that job! I HATE waiting for the outcome! I even skip to the ends of books to see the finale!


      • ic2fools says:

        Alright Professor! Being able to see Trayon and family get Justice and O’Mara eat Crow Pie at the same time.

        Let’s hope O’Mara doesn’t spontaneously combust,

      • disappointed says:

        Fred you just killed my MOJO! I had not thought about the jury actually deciding in my mind defense rest and the jurors all jump up and scream GUILTY! Wishful thinking uh?

      • Malisha says:

        About O’Mara spontaneously combusting? I wouldn’t spit on the best part of him if he did.

      • Momma says:

        Thank you, Professor. Hirschhorn has been very effective at keeping Fogen more involved. I’m looking forward to seeing him go back to looking like a potted palm during the trial. Should make an impression on the jury, I would think.

        I read that Hirschhorn receives $10,000 a day and, as you said, that he does not discount that or do pro bono.

        • cielo62 says:

          Momma~So he’s earned $50,000 for just last week. I wonder where the money is coming from? I thought they (the defense) were broke?


      • Momma says:

        Evidently the money is coming from the donations.

      • @ Professor

        Waiting on a verdict is enough to give a person a heart attack. I pray God helps me to stay calm.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Karma is neutralizing Mr. Hirschhorn, and for free! 😀

      • Momma says:

        ITA Maybe the attorneys take it in stride, but I think that if I were Hirschhorn and my clients father released a highly controversial book during voir dire, I would pack my bags and go home in disgust and frustration.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I suspect karma would have been kinder had they not pulled such low-down public stunts with inadmissables.

      • cielo62 says:

        Two Sides- karma is a bitch, right? They deserve it!


      • Malisha says:

        If there is karma, then at 7:30 pm on 2/26/2012 there was something karmic that no criminal defense lawyer hired after the fact could have undone. If there is NOT karma, then O’Mara’s and West’s behavior have done Fogen a disservice he richly deserved.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Malisha, I think there’s karma on both ends and everything inbetween. A reaction for each action.

        Yup, cielo, no fun when those chickens come home to roost.

      • Christopher Charles says:

        I suspect you are right, very right!

    • LeaNder says:

      Fred, I’ll be back tomorrow, although I am bad at both watching and writing comments.

      Something I seriously wonder. Every single person was told that he or she has to decide only based on the evidence, what relevance has the informer O’Mara is so obsessed with?

      Supposing of course that at the same time he want a leader that he feels supports the self-defense theory, wouldn’t either the leader or the tweener be quite able to handle matters that one or the other could bring up without informing a deputy?

      Could this an underhanded way to look for people who function similarly to Fogen?

      Mr. O’Mara initially told the family he was a “control freak”. As a defense attorney, it was understandable Mr. O’Mara wanted to control. We had no problem with that. However, as time passed, it still appeared George was having little said about him positively in the media, even by Mr. O’Mara. this was extremely frustrating for the family.

      From Senior’s highly crazy book.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it’s rather difficult for even his defense attorneys to find something nice about Fogen and we’ve seen how they shunned him in some of the early hearings. All their sitting close to him and pats on the shoulder are pure PR now.

      • This guy cannot write his way out of a bag, Lord help us.

        Your comments are great and much appreciated, LeaNder, don’t underestimate yourself.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ditto, Leander. I always look forward to your comments.

      • LeaNder says:

        Thanks Crane, in this context I actually asked a superfluous question it feels in hindsight. The beauty of Fred’s model is that it is really simple.

        But as you may imagine this question always stuck out for me. For whatever reason, West never asks it. Am I wrong?

        This amazing book at the moment consumes all my attention. Eric Deggans, Race Baiter. For whatever reason he manages to connect many of the loose threats on my mind. And as you may imagine it is not as fast a read as Senior’s was. And admittedly I move forward quite slowly. 😉

        I can sent you and Fred the Kindle copy for anyone interested. Lot’s of interesting topics, like hate radio from a historical, regulation and economical perspective. Or e.g. TV series and black or generally actors of diverse ethnicities, lots about his struggles with Fox too.

        But now I have to get ready for the hearing. Were is my coffee? 😉 I hope Malisha has her equivalent ready, just as the rest whatever they need to have on their side. 😉

      • Malisha says:

        Hi Leander, I take my caffeine straight! I buy caffeine pills at the drug store (no prescription necessary) 200 mg. at a time and I limit myself to “bid” meaning one in the morning and the other in the afternoon (3 pm). I’ve been a “mainliner” since college when I had to work “caffeine” into my budget as a line item!

        One day you will visit the States and I’ll buy you a real cup of coffee! 😀

        • LeaNder says:

          I love the coffee in the States. I dont’t know a single country were they refill your cup. Ideally it should be darkly roasted as Italian but as weak as American. 😉

          Besides that was exactly what I had on my mind. 😉

    • racerrodig says:

      Dare I say it…..Part of God’s Plan ??

      • dianetrotter says:

        Perhaps God’s plan for us to look introspectively. What reasons would we celebrate or even justify the killing of a teenager? Why are people who don’t know GZ so intense about justifying the murder? When people make comments, I feel they are defending themselves – not GZ.

        • racerrodig says:

          They care nothing about him. Last Oct. 5th on HP, Fogens birthday, not one Zidiot wished him a happy one. In the middle of the afternoon, I pointed that out to them that they didn’t even know it was his birthday. I got hundreds of responses back that this was not about him, his claim, his life…nothing. This is about their gun rights, and the fact that a white man will overcome any allegation of a crime against a black anybody. I can spell “race baiting hate mongers” and can smell one a mile away.

          • cielo62 says:

            racer~ Fo sho it’s about SOMETHING other than georgie himself. He’s just the mannequin that’s holding the “gun rights” mask. He’s totally disposable. If he goes to jail, oh well. The next murdering non-AA loser will do.


          • racerrodig says:

            He certainly fails at being the poster boy for gun rights, that’s for sure. Maybe stupid….he could be the poster boy for stupid, and George C. says it best…..

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer~ LOL! You can’t fix stupid. BUT we can put it in JAIL.


          • racerrodig says:

            I was scared to death on Mon. & Tue. with the jury pool but feel a little better now. One of my Investigator friends e-mailed me and said it will all work out and the Professor seems confidant and as we all have seen, he’s batting near 1000. so I’ll take that road.

            So, laugh now Fogen, have a yuk in court, the world is watching and it’s not looking to good.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Good to see your fonts, racer. I was afraid that jury selection had done your heart in.

        • racerrodig says:

          I have to say Mon & Tue were scary to me. I have been swamped with work in the shop and haven’t had time to post much this past week. I listened as much as I could on HLN but I hope the seat an honest jury and O’ Mara’s games blew up on him.

  34. Note the following facts posted by Piranha Mom:

    Interesting stats:

    20 of the 29 PJ’s are female.

    9 of the 29 PJ’s are Black, Mixed-Race or Hispanic.

    In the first 10, 8 out of 10 are female, 2 out of 10 are Black.

    Often juries consist of lots of old-timers but only 2 of the 29 are judged to be in their 60’s to 70’s.

    Out of the 29 PJ’s so far, there are only 3 white males: in the order of selection, they are the 4th, the 12th and the 29th.

    Statistically, this is looking good for the prosecution.

    • concernedczen says:

      I don’t know that I buy that white females are better for the prosecution than white males. So far, there have been some pretty obviously racially biased white female potential jurors.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @concerned –

        I hear you. I only gave you the stats so you can start sorting out. Luckily, you can see the initial interviews re the “media pollution” impact on jurors. Next you can see their responses in voir dire.

        Because females who have had children rarely lose their protecting “maternal instinct” and this is a case of Murder 2 of a juvenile just 3 weeks past his 17th birthday, I expect the “nurturing gene” to be rampant among the female jurors.

        That’s one aspect of the stats that looms clearly with these PJs so far.

        Again, these are only stats without reference to each PJ’s “performance” so far. There are exceptions (individuals in the pool come to mind) but I am not rushing to judgment yet on individuals — ALL OF WHOM ARE DIFFERENT.

        You can expect rabid racists to reveal themselves, and be weeded out.

        Also, Bernie de la Rionda will strike many women as a strong he-bear able to protect children and the civic good. Therefore I expect they will trust what he has to say. An un-liked attorney is a losing attorney.

        I served only once as a jury consultant and found it fascinating. As strategy, I also picked up quotes from as many jury candidates as possible, as voir dire went along – then incorporated those quotes as “significant to this case” in the attorney’s opening argument.

  35. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Beta! I'm going to read this one very carefully. Thank you, Professor!

  36. amsterdam1234 says:

    Love it. I will try to apply your rules.

  37. ic2fools says:


    Gentlemen may you, your families, friends an cyberpals have a Great Day!

  38. ic2fools says:

    Wow! Alpha

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