Expert opinions about the death shriek are admissible at trial

Saturday, June 9, 2013

Good afternoon:

The defense presented the testimony of two expert witnesses yesterday, Dr. Peter French from the UK and George Doddington from the United States, who agreed with Dr. Nakasone of the FBI Crime Lab that there is insufficient information in the background of the recorded 911 calls with which to form an opinion regarding whether Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman uttered the terrified death shriek.

The three experts also agreed that there is insufficient information to support an opinion regarding whether there are any identifiable words or phrases in the background of those calls.

Note that the three experts have described the prosecution and defense effort to rely on expert witnesses to identify the source of the terrified death shriek, as well as any words or phrases that either of them might have used, as an absence-of-evidence problem. That is, they agreed that the methodologies used by the prosecution experts are generally accepted by audiologists and neither novel nor new.

This conclusion is all that is required to satisfy the Frye rule, since the rule is a counting-heads test that establishes a threshold requirement or legal foundation to introduce an expert opinion that is based on a novel scientific theory or new methodology. The expert’s conclusion is irrelevant.

In other words, there was no need for a Frye hearing since the prosecution experts based their opinions on long accepted methodologies. Therefore, their opinions are admissible.

How much weight should be accorded to those opinions is a separate issue that only the jury can decide.

Defense counsel have focused their effort during the Frye hearing on attacking the validity of the opinions expressed by the prosecution experts. They are going to have to repeat that effort during the trial.

I predicted long ago that expert opinion regarding who uttered the terrified death shriek would not play a significant role in the outcome of the trial.

If I were arguing the State’s case to the jury, I would emphasize the strength of the circumstantial evidence that proves Trayvon Martin uttered the shriek. I would briefly add that the conclusions reached by the prosecution experts independently confirm the circumstantial evidence.


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580 Responses to Expert opinions about the death shriek are admissible at trial

  1. PiranhaMom says:

    Thanks, Smokee!

  2. smokeegyrl says:

    Thinking that PJ came from the Facebook Hate page.

  3. smokeegyrl says:

    This happened 4 days ago, they did another body language today but I missed it.

  4. Malisha says:

    Fogen’s peers? Must be losers with exaggerated senses of their own importance, right? We should be able to find six of them by throwing a stone standing anywhere in Florida!

  5. LeaNder says:

    could it be that women with kids are not exactly Fogen’s peers? I wonder about defense objections.

    Two picks a) Jeff Weiner:

    Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS 24m

    Nelson tells #GeorgeZimmerman jurors were catergorized by questionnaire answers. Object to exclusions your lawyers want? “No, your honor.”

    b) , Stutzman, there are only four newer ones, she wants this information to stay higher up:

    Rene Stutzman ‏@renestutzman 2h

    2nd potential juror: black woman, nursing home employee with seven children. Moved here rom Chicago 4 months ago. #Trayvon, #Zmmerman.

  6. Leisa says:

    I have a dollar that says Mom will not get through questioning 5 potential jurors without trying to slide in something he knows is not allowed at this point.

  7. Leisa says:

    Bringing first potential juror now.

  8. Leisa says:

    It was a very short recess. Lol
    Mr. Crump to speak between 2 and 4 and it is to be live streamed like jr’s I guess.

  9. colin black says:

    What the eck now I got a aeal.

  10. Nef05 says:

    Court will be in recess ’til 2? I’m guessing she doesn’t know it is 2? Or did I miss something?

  11. Leisa says:

    Recess till 2pm

  12. colin black says:

    Side bars over jurour questions,

  13. Nef05 says:

    I didn’t see the beginning coverage of the Anthony or Arias trials, so I have to ask a question. Were the media so “surprised” that the protesters, outside, were “passionate, yet peaceful”? Then they mention the female law students from “an AA university”, from whom they get the “passionate, yet peaceful” quote. And the media “hopes” that everyone remains that way.

    I’m getting a little pissed off by the media ASSUMPTION that Trayvon supporters (read black people) are basically understood to be on the very verge of rioting, at any moment. I’m getting even more pissed off because I don’t even think they realise what they’re doing – I think it’s inherent in the way they think. And they’re stating this BS on TV like it’s some generally accepted given, like the law of gravity or something!

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t know what their thing is.

    • type1juve says:

      Actually it’s just more profiling of Black people. This profiling is reflected in the slanted coverage of this case, the willingness of the press to accept and report O’mara’s lies about Trayvon as gospel. The media has done this since the beginning of this case and I’m pissed off about it too.

    • Shari says:

      It’s just racism plain and simple. There were peaceful protests, no reason to be shocked. The Civil Rights Movement was characterized by peaceful protests and marches. Black people are not animals and I am offended that this kind of language is allowed on the airwaves. The next time you see this you should not the time/anchor and complain to the station. It may not change anything but make your voice heard.

  14. Leisa says:

    They are back reviewing jury questionnaires

  15. colin black says:

    What time does court resume

  16. chi1224 says:

    I had to step out again, it appears the court is in recess now, I’m guessing for lunch.
    Does anybody know when the judge is going to rule on the admissibility of the audio experts?

  17. ay2z says:

    Sybrina needs all support she can get. Not only was her son innocently present at the neighborhood, his life was taken by this defendant she must now face every day. But what O’Mara has done to publicize her child, and by every definition of Florida law, Trayvon was still a child (Judge Lester in his ruling against GZ using the argument of his youth for his bond ‘mistakes’).

    It’s one thing to bring out legitimate character evidence if and when appropriate at trial, but O’Mara feeds the lowest and most ignorant level of hate, by whatever name he wants to not call it.

    Sybrina has had to endure the death of her son, and an attempt at the assasination of his youthful, high spirited child before he grew into a man.

    I feel helpless for her and I hope that people with more religious faith, can give her what she needs at this time.

  18. ay2z says:

    Dave Knechel is in the courtroom.

    I’m wondering if Prof will be able to attend?

    Aside, scuttlebutt from Bill Schaefer as he commented on the case this morning, was that Bernie and MOM do not get along on a personal level. Surprise surprise.

    Had Judge Nelson believed that any of what O’Mara called ‘criminal’ in the area of discovery, rose to that level, and as far as we know, the cell phone issue was as our Prof said, a non issue as the raw data, that the defense requested as the form of the cell phone material (so they could do the work themselves to put in readable form for themselves) was given early this year, not withheld.

    O’Mara, the ‘rennaissance man’ plays dirty. Makes it personal between himself and Bernie. He displays innocent trustworthiness, like honest Mark, the used car salesman, wiping a tear and all that, but he’s a snake that he hopes the jury won’t see coming.

    • ay2z says:

      As distinct from a good and experienced defense trial lawyer, who can play by the rules, but not use public forum to encourage open and ignorant hatred to benefit his ignorant and hateful client.

  19. LeaNder says:

    so, sick, I don’t like this woman:

    Rene Stutzman Rene Stutzman ‏@renestutzman 3h

    Tears in Sybrina Fulton’s eyes as she exits c-room. Trial watcher who normally uses a wheelchair stands in a show of reverence.

    Why do you think it’s a show, or do I misunderstand? In tiny ways it always seems to show.

    • ay2z says:

      Not everyone who uses a wheelchair, does it because their legs don’t work.

    • LeaNder says:

      Ok, I would like to know what this suggests to you:

      stands in a show of reverence.

      She could have written stands up in reverence, but she wrote stands in a show. What do you feel is the difference, and why does she add the show. On twitter shortness is all. What exactly is “a show of” needed for?

    • LeaNder says:

      or stands up and bows in reverence.

      That’s probably what he did.

  20. LeaNder says:

    Rene Stutzman ‏@renestutzman 25m

    Twas a very brief power blackout to c-room just now. Appears no harm, no foul. Lights back on. #Trayvon, #Zimmerman

    why did I distinctly hear that the mics are turned off, and than the sound had gone? Was I hallucinating?

    • ay2z says:

      no, you didn’t imagine that. The court asked that the mics be turned off at the request of the defense and state lawyers as they were discussing the jury selection at their respective tables.

      Don’t know about any blackout in the courtroom related to that.

  21. willisnewton says:

    BDLR was making two piles quickly as well. I think there is a key question in there that makes it easy to eliminate the vast majority of potential jurors from each side’s perspective but they won’t be the same question. From my rough count he found one keeper per 20-30 on the big pile.

    “Have you been following the case in the media?” may be a question the prosecution wants to throw out all the “yes” potential jurors over, considering how tainted the defense has made the jury pool with lies and innuendo, and attacking the victim’s character, etc.

    Perhaps when some jurors are let loose some may speak to reporters and we’ll hear about the questions, but I’m guessing they are fairly standard questions. Someone above posted a link to a sample from another prominent murder trial.

  22. Dave says:

    So far, I’d say that Tracy Martin has the coolest tie in the room (sharp suit too!) but West’s looks pretty sharp also.

  23. LeaNder says:

    I am getting melancholic again, I maybe should give this up and join the family’s prayers. Notice, I don’t do that often but I will till the end of this trial. I do believe in a higher spirit than money out there.

    • texad says:

      @ LeaNder

      Way back when, everybody was betting on Goliath’s “superior” power – but little David won. Money will not overpower evidence in this case. There will be justice for Trayvon.

      And of course pray. More prayer-more power.

  24. Woow! says:

    JN said she was concentrating on question number 4, separating the questionnaire into piles consisting on 1. agree/yes 2. disagree/no 3. no answer.

    I wonder what question 4 asks?

  25. colin black says:

    WOW That Black Woman is beutifull
    uNFOURTUNATE COMPARE an contrast with Shellie in the back ground,

    • Malisha says:

      Don’t go there.

      Women are not all considered from the POV of whether they would/could/should bewife Fogen! So comparisons to Fogen’s wife — uh — (alleged wife?) — 😳

  26. LeaNder says:

    I should stop to change matters as I always do, but usually I proofread stuff, here not so much:

    It wasn’t addressed to me directly, but I responded to it, politely asking to explain. Not long after that one or two days later the whole article had gone. And with it the comment and our exchange.

  27. LeaNder says:

    When all this started, there was a blog article that disappeared. Not that I haven’t noticed this before with my former military intelligence friend.

    The comment by the author that disappeared too in this context read somehow like this:

    Don’t fool yourself, there will be more than enough money in support of George Zimmerman

    It wasn’t addressed to me directly, but I responded to it, shortly after the whole article had gone. Politely asking to explain.

    Why am I thinking about this again quite a bit since the onslaught of experts and now a probably rather expensive jury consultant that is brought in to force Nelson into surrender? Notice too, while media is allowed to be kept in concerning dirt about Trayvon Martin in this context they have to stay out. No ears allowed. I wonder what Nelson thinks, a kingdom for her thoughts. I am sure she never before experienced something like this. She only wants to get it all over with.

    What do you think. I have never given up the idea more than enough money would find more underhand ways when it got important. With Doddington I pondered the larger ALEC networks just as in Jeralyn’s case, power networks. They seem to stand in support of Fogen. Democracy working? Compare that to Trayvon’s family, Crump and Jackson.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Angela Corey is present today. Will she be making the opening statement? Anyways, it’s good to see her.

      • colin black says:

        NO She wont Bernie will at start of trial.
        Angela is there as the Boss an in an Advisory Capaticy.
        She is an organ grinder not the monket.

        She assigned the case to her two most senior prosecuters .
        They will prosecutes fogggagge in court.

        She is the gun an they are the bullets she has shot in his direction

        And any points they make dureing trial wtll not be hollow.

        Its the defence his defence that will once again consist of the use of hollow points.

    • colin black says:

      I don’t believe theres a powers that be situation backing foggagge to the hilt.

      No this is going to be a fair fight unless a raceist jurour sneaks on then a mistrial will ocour.

      Think about it if there were a powers thar be conspiracy to ensure an out come in this trial.

      It would be 100 percent the other way ie to ensure foggagges conviction.

      The most powerfull man on the planet is American an of mixed race.

      He has publicly stated TRAYVON COULDVE BEEN HIS SON…..

      The Gov is desperate to reign in fire arms an mass shootings
      Un regulated gun purchases loose gun laws I could go on an on.

      And because of prior events were rules an laws where ignored an guilty walked free ie RODNEY KING.
      Mass social unrest riots in L A ect,

      If a fix was in it would be to ensure the foggagges is slam dunked an punked up the yazoo.

      An there would be in not only Americas best intrests but the WORLDS TO GET THIS EEGITT OF THE STREETS.

      But as I say its not pre ordained he has a right to a fair trial.

      More than he gave TRAYVON.

  28. colin black says:

    Why is O Mara so smiley over some of the Q an A s……?

  29. colin black says:

    Foggagge just managed to resist grabbing his cell phone as the pretty Black intern placed some files in front of him.
    Gave her an old fashioned look though.

    Wonder what her deal is he s thinking.

  30. SearchingMind says:

    O’Mara is very very unhappy with both Judge Nelson and the procedure set down by her. I don’t know why he has issues with everything, instead of concentrating and focusing (and he will need abundance of both for reasonable performance).

  31. YQ says:

    @ Stormwatch-very good point. Also to note: Serino and his team had to walk a fine line because of the SYG law. At that early point in the investigation, the only thing that was “known” about the case was that the fat man shot an unarmed kid with no history of violence. There was more to acknowledge that just that one fact-IMO that one fact alone should have landed him some time in prison and Serino would have agreed after hearing the fat man’s statements. I think that there absolutely had to be enough evidence in this chess match to show that Stand Your Ground would not work for the defense, so that the prosecution could funnel them to the “here and now”-a trial.
    It’s funny how it all worked out, but I don’t think there was a plotted plan behind it. The fat man was vulnerable in his position and Serino played into that. The result was a plethera of fruedian slips that when used properly will help the prosecution team. “Good cop/good cop” was the first article I read about that in the Leatherman Law blog which helped me to understand that, although in the interrogation/reenactment, Singleton was having none of the fat man’s story at all.

    @Willis Newton-I think MOM and Co, feels like it would be a good look to win, and they are trying but the momentum seems to be swinging in the way of the prosecution very early. This has to be very alarming to defense, who are either withholding evidence or just don’t have enough evidence. Whatever the case may be with the fat man’s assembly of attornies, nothing IMO is enough to make his self-defense claim seem realistic. I’m a firm believer in the fact that the truth is always readily available if problem is looked into at every minute detail.

    @Two Sides- Karma is very real, and it can be a bitch if tempted. The ghosts of Arthur McDuffie and Tyron Lewis are indeed enjoying themselves.

    • willisnewton says:

      thanks YQ. the “good cop/good cop” facade was hard to maintain for Singleton, I agree. Keep in mind she also had to spend more time with GZ, including the deliberate “down time” while they allegedly were waiting for the voice stress test administrator to “arrive and set up.” I also think this waiting period was a deliberate ruse – notice it was videotaped and submitted into evidence while other waiting periods were not. This uncomfortable silence is a set up – GZ speaks off the cuff to pass the time and calm his own nerves, and look what the tactic produced – his statements about bowing to natural authority, or whatever his weaselly words were. I know it made me sick to hear them.

      I think her stomach was not strong enough to maintain the facade that she was his buddy, but also that she was occasionally slipping into “good cop/BAD cop” out of reflex, habit or instinct. Certainly she pressed him in the final session, where they played the NEN cal recording for him finally, and got some extremely uncomfortable answers and non-answers out of him when she kept asking “and you are still by the clubhouse now?” questions as it became obvious he had lied about ever being in the clubhouse parking lot.

      She is also not usually a homicide investigator. Many maintain that she asked too many questions and sought clairification too much when first taking his statements but I’m not so sure. She patiently kept backing him up to tell the WHOLE story and this is where his story falls apart most provably, since he contradicts himself – both versions can’t be true.

      • YQ says:

        @WillisNewton-Exactly!!! And especially when she quizzes him about getting out of the car “to look for an address” instantaneously when he reported that the kid ran. At that point he was trying to conceal the fact that he followed. I suspect that the fat man didn’t know that there was a recording of the NEN call. In the Hannity interview the fat man changed it up. Now, the kid didn’t really run, he “skipped away”, and now he never followed, he was merely “going in the same direction to monitor the kid.” The slip is that: if the kid didn’t run and you went in the same direction as the kid, this avails the argument that you caught up to the kid since you admitted that you knew the direction the kid was headed. I bet Singleton spit coffee on the TV when she saw that because even on the day after, the fat man couldn’t recall those minute details that were needed to find out exactly what happened. Now, he’s able to vivdly describe just how the victim went in that direction.

        And if all of that wasn’t enough, he slipped up in the reenactment once he realized the body was further away than he thought from the crossection. As he’s explaining his version of the struggle, specifically how and where he fell, he occassionally looked further down the “T”, down at the real place of the kids murder. You can’t possibly forget the exact location of where you killed the kid so quickly. “I think it was somewhere around here,” he says, BUT YET his desire was to move a bit further down. He couldn’t, bc his own story didn’t make it realistic without availing the fact that he did follow the kid. I was sure his story stunked to high hell at that moment.

  32. colin black says:

    Mine Gott

    Foggagge is terrified I wonder why?

  33. Nef05 says:

    Good morning all. I see we’re back in session. Going back to catch up on what I missed earlier.

  34. colin black says:

    Judge Nelson


    Ive handled for trials than you’ve got teeth.

  35. Ty Flair says:

    RZ jr. just said West was O’mara secret weapon,well I be dam. What the hell is wrong with this family,they refuse to look at the evidence,like DNA.

  36. crazy1946 says:

    Has anyone seen the Professor or Mz. Crane Station here in the last day? I hope all is well in Kentucky? I worry about their safety due to all the racist supporters of the Foggen and the things that they say on other sites…….

    • willisnewton says:

      I’m guessing they are in transit or sleeping off the long ride. Motorcycle trips take a toll on your system, and it sounds like they may have been rained on too. Might have been delayed.

      Let’s hope they had fun and got some good R&R time before this trial commences. I’m looking forward to hearing the prof again – and to a new thread, lol.

  37. colin black says:

    I haven’t seen any court yet just junior zimmspin.
    Shellies realy there?
    Or have they hired doubles a la saddam Hussein.

    We know foggagges chin has multiple doubles.

  38. KittySP says:

    poor, poor RZ jr…he’s so fearful for his life of all the apparent public death threats…yet can’t seem to stay out of the media lime light!

  39. LeaNder says:

    So we have mistaken the elder man with gray hair as Fogen senior but wasn’t him ever.

    • ay2z says:

      No confusion here, about that guy. He wore a badge just like the one dog the bounty hunter wears, around his neck. Today, wftv called him a ‘deputy’, but he is probably more like the defendant’s bodyguard type.

    • LeaNder says:

      Well Stutzman claims that Fogen’s bodyguard is sitting next to Shellie. I just noticed or noticed not too long ago, only some of the comments are tweeted to Jeff Weiner, so they have to serve both parties and Stutzman’s seems to be in charge for the Zimmerman camp.

      Seems I understood the name correctly:

      Rene Stutzman Rene Stutzman ‏@renestutzman 3h

      New def atty: Robt B. Hirschhorn, jury consultant. Now chatting w/ Geo #Zimmerman. #TrayvonMartin

  40. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Omg. Junior really gets under my skin. He thinks that he is something, someone important. He makes me sick. He’s nothing more than a murderers brother.

    • Malisha says:

      But the things Junior is saying are all things that are not admissible (in addition to being not true). I kind of like his press conference because I see it as a kid who’s in trouble who’s jawing to other kids as they sit in the principal’s office waiting to be disciplined. He says: “It wasn’t even my fault. And I’m the best kid in the class. And they were unfair. And I’m always right. And I didn’t do anything. And they were lying on me and being mean. And they this and that and I this and that and and and and and and …..” and thus he comforts himself while he waits for the boom to come down.

      I kind of like it. It is so like their immature, resentful, thoughtless, foolish, arrogant, haughty, ignorant and self-aggrandizing family. I couldn’t have written better dialogue for the character of “Junior” myself!

  41. colin black says:

    Generous George wouldn’t even pay his rent
    Or his attorneys
    Or his attorneys whom won him 16 thousand dollars civil suite settlement
    Wouldn’t pay the bar tender at his fax grad party.

    If that’s generous in zimmspin

    Id hate to meet a tight wad.

  42. Woow! says:

    Besides Robert Jr. and Shellie, are any other family member of George in court today?

    • ay2z says:

      junior said in his presser, that the parents understand the importance of being there to back up fogen, imagine that. He does fumble his words at times. But that they will make some arrangements to see if they can get them there in the future. Sounds like only wife and bro there today. (all wearing the black theme, btw)

  43. chi1224 says:

    I want to know WHO arranged for this guy to get a press conference inside the courtroom!

    • colin black says:

      Emm junior walks up to film crew an stsrts ponfiticating.
      Now he will go in search of another.
      If in court hall way so be it.
      Bathroom so be it

      Car park ect

      That’s how zimspin rolls.
      Camras rolllin then he is strollin.

      • colin black says:

        Film crews are like sharks when you through
        Some bait in the water

        First one crew then another before you know it
        Impromptu presser
        Organicly emerges.

        Some court bailiffs instead of doing there jobs.
        An ushering them of an out of Court
        Stands an watches an hopes his wife sees him on the news.

        American justice is to informal try that shit in a British court an they would all be in cells locked up.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      He is not giving them no info…same old BS. I guess they get high ratings

  44. tonya B says:

    what in the ?? is Jr doing he needs to be made to sit his ass down

  45. colin black says:


    HOW mom an dad are on the lam
    foggage in hideing.

  46. colin black says:

    Another TRUTH

    I don’t have an employer.

  47. disappointed says:

    One more time with the George had broken nose and I will show Junior what a real broken nose looks like!

    • ZCBest says:

      so will I…I have pictures of my own broken nose from 2011. Maybe I should have stood my ground from that car accident? Stupid ass Joonyah!

  48. ZCBest says:

    His nose was broken…George has already taken the stand through his interviews!!! Yes, and thanks for those gems!

    • bettykath says:

      Prediction: His interviews won’t be used by the state until he gets on the stand to tell another story.

  49. colin black says:

    meaningfull way

    Don West there secret weapon

    There fluhked.

  50. ZCBest says:

    Did he just say Skeletor is O’Mara’s secret weapon!!!! OMG, he is admitting that he is with the sinking ship!

  51. SearchingMind says:


    Why are they allowing Robert Zimmerman to desecrate the Court and the sanctity of the proceeding? This is gonna cause trouble.

    • chi1224 says:

      I agree!!! This is disgusting! WTF!!!

    • Trained Observer says:

      WTF, indeed. Can this be construed as contempt of court, even though court is not in session?

    • texad says:

      @ SearchingMind

      RZ,Jr. is disgusting and is a trashy fameseeker. Like MOM, he is addicted to the microphone-any microphone. He is in fact in contempt of court and disrespecting Judge Nelson’s courtroom. She would be well within her rights to fine him, jail him, and ban him from her courtroom. I hope that she does.

      • texad says:

        While Jr. might not be in Judge Nelson’s courtroom per se, he is still disrespectful of what he knows her wishes to be. She has maintained a professional and well run courtroom. Who will feel the need to come to the microphone next- Bozo the Clown? Shrek? Micky and Minnie? They are next door to Disney, aren’t they?

        Slimy snakes always manage to reveal who they are. They must be stopped.

    • SearchingMind says:

      While the Court urges parties to avoid discussing the case in the media, the Court House itself is being turned into a media battle ground! Should Trayvon’s parents be giving equal opportunity to address the public from inside the Court? I am flabbergasted this happened. I hope someone brings this to the attention of Judge Nelson and that she issues an Order that the Court will not be misused in this manner. This is turning the Court into a circus-theater and very disrespectful.

  52. dianetrotter says:

    Robbie is alleging death threats by all forms of media. Why is there no wiretape, investigation, printed letters/emails, tracing by to the source ip? Why are they allowed to state these lies?

  53. crazy1946 says:

    Someone tell me why the brother of the accused is being allowed to use the courtroom for a press conference? Wow, do these people have no limits?

    • bettykath says:

      you might want to consider that it’s the press using the room for its reporting. makes it easier to take.

  54. colin black says:

    junior tells TRUTH SHOCK


    WOW never thought he would admit that on live feed.

  55. ay2z says:

    jr is on now, taking press Q and A’s

  56. chi1224 says:

    I was reading comments about this case in various places today, and I got a sick feeling in the pitt of my stomach that some racist Zimmerman supporter might make it on to the jury. How could anyone really prove it if a juror was stealth? It scares me how many closet racists are out there.
    My heart is with Trayvon’s family. I know how personally upset I will be if Zimmerman gets off on this, and I can’t imagine the pain for Trayvon’s family. I hope that I am worried over nothing, but when I see that GZ actually has supporters it gets very, very scary.

    • ay2z says:

      They will try. And if one gets on the jury, the whole panel of jurors will no longer be secret after trial if they go against that vigilante mole juror is a racist.

    • Leisa says:

      I think O’mara is going to cause a mistrial by trying to introduce so much in admissible evidence.

  57. Dave says:

    Junior is about to speak

    • Trained Observer says:

      Why is this scene-stealing fool being allowed to use the courtroom for his personal agenda. JN needs to come down hard on this … this is disgusting. (Am not sure what he’s saying because I’m having audio difficulties, but I can see him by the flags.

      • ay2z says:

        He’s not using Judge Nelson’s courtroom, it’s an empty one somewhere else in the building. He was ‘live’ vs the Martin family statement which happened before 9 am, and also in an empty courtroom. He ranted, whereas, Tracy asked to let the justice system work and asked for their family and friends to pray for them, and Crump added ‘peaceful justice’, which was the message they brought.

  58. ay2z says:

    junior is currently meeting with media in another room. point counterpoint for the Martin family.

    Live on WFTV in one minutes time . Junior in his blackshirt in 89 degree weather.

  59. colin black says:

    Its 4 o 9 in the uk I just got a phone call from a robot an pressed three an option it gave if you have already paid this bill.

    I did an got a telling of for not giving the payment in advance enough.
    Aparently due date is unacceptable.

    Anyway least of my probs whats the time in Floridian Land its 4 13 pm in UK NOW
    So is it per chance 12 noonish there.
    And are we there yet ie any live feed?

  60. chi1224 says:

    I have been out of the loop all weekend, can someone please tell me, did the judge rule on the audio experts?? Is anything going to be live stream today?

    • ay2z says:

      No ruling on audio, not finished tee Frye experts for defense yet. Yes, when the first group of jurors is brought, one by one, for their individual voir dire.

      • chi1224 says:

        Thank you. Any idea when the judge is supposed to rule on audio?

      • ay2z says:

        The first group of 21 is delayed because of the questionnaires, but subsequeent groups will already have done their questionnaires, and they will move through more quickly.

      • ay2z says:

        chi, they will have time during jury selection to fit the rest of Frye in with the defense witness, I don’t think this judge is going to let the defense mess up her court schedule as she moves things along in what is expected to be a lengthy process of selecting an unbiased jury.

  61. ay2z says:

    OS has a video of the Martin family statement as they go forward into trial.

    Message by Tracy, asking for prayers for their family, and for peaceful justice.

  62. Wendie Dox says:

    can someone post a screen shot of her?

  63. fauxmccoy says:

    in regards to jury consultants — o’mara has apparently hired one but the state has not. let’s keep in mind that the state has far more experience prosecuting homicide cases and likely has someone on staff who is qualified to work on these issues. these are the kinds of advantages the state has in terms of in-house resources.

  64. ay2z says:

    Will the juror call ups be allowed to share the questions publicly or with others, if and when they are weeded out? That would show the questions and the potential jurors with an intent to get on the jury, could prepare, or give the right answer to suit the pro jury consultant.

  65. Our 3ChicsPolitico blog partner Ametia found this sample questionnaire for a juror for a high profile murder trial.

    Click to access Spector-%20Juror%20Questionnaire.pdf

  66. YQ says:

    My imagination might be a bit extreme, but to me it almost seems like the fat man is getting double-crossed by his own defense accidentally on purpose. The defensive debate over every single microscopic exhibit far before the trial has forced some even deeper discoveries about what could have went on that night, and the deeper we go, the more we are able to calculate the improbabilities of the fat man’s lies. Everything from the NEN call, to the straddling position of the victim, to the DNA evidence and the screams on the 911 calls favors the prosecution team. The only thing missing is the plea bargain.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “it almost seems like the fat man is getting double-crossed by his own defense accidentally on purpose.!

      I’ve often felt that way, YQ – design or accident? Karma, God’s Plan?

    • willisnewton says:

      I don’t think MOM wants anything more than to get his client free. I agree he has an odd way of going about it, but I can see his strategy is NOT to focus on the small details but instead to obfuscate and distract; and to try and harness the power of repeating an idea until it sounds like the truth. He’s not a fool, and much of what he’s managed so far has definitely tainted the jury pool in his client’s favor.

      In some ways I feel like we’ve ALL been distracted, bamboozled and flim-flammed. It’s possible the worst crimes here were perpetrated by elected officials like Norm Wolfinger, who may have acted behind the scenes in an attempt to thwart justice and, while ultimately they didn’t get GZ’s freedom they did manage to hid their own involvement. Did this man have a role in trying to prevent this trial that begins today? We may never know.

      We will always have garden variety knuckleheads like George Zimmerman with bad attitudes and too easy access to handguns and an insanely inflated sense of entitlement. But people like Wolfinger were elected to protect the public and should be answerable to the public. Instead he was allowed to retire quietly and no credible outside investigation was instigated to examine the circumstances regarding the non-arrest of GZ.

      Nor has there been adequate scrutiny regarding the Stand Your Ground (aka shoot your gun) laws and how they made it onto the books of so many states with the help of ALEC and such.

      We are witnessing a trial that should have been a routine matter of justice puttering along, and instead – and don’t kid yourself – it took 2 million people to make this happen and not one less.

      The DoJ didn’t make this trial happen. The State of Florida didn’t make this happen, although they are going through with it, thankfully. The people who peacefully demonstrated and organized protests and petitioned online made this happen.

      • Stormwatch says:

        While I agree with much of what you say, I think maybe it was all a blessing in disguise. If the Sanford PD do their job and arrest Zimmerman that night, does he immediately get a lawyer, who advises him to keep his mouth shut? Probably so. It’s doubtful Zimmerman will take the stand. All the statements he gave the police and the media are going to work against him. If he’s arrested the night of the incident, there’s a good chance none of those statements were ever made. By not arresting him that niight, in an effort to shield him, they may have ultimately screwed him.

      • texad says:

        willisnewton- Well said. I have always maintained that this case is important because it’s bigger than GZ. It is bigger than the State of Florida. And unfortunately, it is bigger than Trayvon Martin. Trayvon’s murder reflects a systemic problem and systems exist because of long held beliefs that are supported and maintained by those in power. My hope is that we don’t forget the conversations we read on the Professor’s site and try to operationalize them in our daily lives in some shape, form, or fashion.

        The first step was bringing GZ into a court of law to answer for his role in killing a teenager. The next step is to obtain a guilty verdict for 2nd degree murder. Subsequent steps must involve speaking up so that other Trayvon’s don’t lose their lives senselessly.

      • willisnewton says:

        I also agree that by letting GZ feel he was likely “in the clear” the SPD investigators managed to keep him talking without a lawyer and that was very important. But I feel it may have been a deliberate “good cop/ good cop” tactic by lead investigator Chris Sertino, who handled GZ like he was almost a buddy to him, and that this tactic was the best way to draw George out.

        Keep in mind that even despite the obvious problems with his narrative, Serino always gave GZ an out and couched the “problems” with his story not adding up as things Serino himself would need to explain to mysterious others, not things GZ himself needed to explain to Serino and Singleton, as though Serino might be expected to run interference for GZ as though he was “on the right side” and being watched out for. I contend this was a ruse on the part of Serino. He tried for the most part to tell GZ whatever he felt he needed to say in order to keep this guy talking without a lawyer. Recall the GZ was calling Serino for advice and “checking in” all the way up until his ill-fated attempts to meet with Angela Corey and continue his “friendly cooperation.” She didn’t need to continue the ruse, and refused to speak to him. Instead she slapped the cuffs on him when he showed up, armed and unaware, and quickly charged him with Murder 2. It possible if she had allowed him to volunteer more statements before being arrested and charged, he might have used the month or so since the killing to hone his false narrative better. She was also wise, I feel.

        I think Serino let him believe he “passed a voice stress test,” too and that this was deliberate. (Those tests are completely worthless in court and the entire endeavor was a ruse IMO to get GZ to give his false narrative one more time, building up the case for inconsistencies and contradictions that always come out when someone is inventing a fictional account of events, and often even come out when one is relating a truthful account, too sadly.) In my opinion Serino knew he had an obvious liar on his hands and he quickly found out he was lacking a star witness to the start of the fight. His best chance was to give GZ enough rope to hang himself, and he did that by playing to George’s ego.

        If I had to guess, what happened next however is that the police chief got involved and this man’s own personal bias crept in. Also, Serino never did uncover a star witness. Remember he wasn’t given access to w8/Dee Dee because by that time the Martin family had lost confidence in the locals and were reaching out to the feds for help.

        Serino seems to have let slip to at least one resident that she needed to “read between the lines” in this case, and that Serino knew this case was, after all, about race and that George was lying. I think he did his job as well as might be expected. Did he do it perfect? No. He seems to have at least initially believed that GZ was the one yelling for help and he made a big mistake in giving his opinion to witnesses about that. But overall it seems he handled George quite well and we have his efforts to thank for that.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @willis — at the risk of sounding like your own, personal ‘yes man’ today (in spite of my gender), i have to agree with your assessment of serino’s actions. your concept matches up with my own.

    • Nef05 says:

      the improbabilities of the fat man’s lies

      Why did I just picture the disgusting Baron Harkonnen floating about the Emperor’s court in the movie “Dune”…

  67. willisnewton says:

    Good morning to all. And let there be justice for all. It’s nice to see the familiar “faces” here today. I know many of you are familiar with one another for over a year now as we all waited for this day to arrive, lots of you having waited since very very early in this case, in fact before there was a case…. It feels good to have arrived here and I look forward to monitoring the case alongside all of you.

    Let’s hope this trial brings a small measure of peace to the Martin family. I can’t believe how restrained they have managed to be in getting here. Their teenage son was shot dead while walking home with snacks and his self-admtted killer was not charged with any crime that night. Imagine how you would feel, and imagine how difficult it would be to remain as poised and civil as they have been every day since that sad day when they learned they had senselessly lost their son to a man so obviously lacking a credible excuse for his actions.

    George Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. He’s already proven he is a person without credibility. Let’s see what the State can prove. I’m proud of what we as bloggers with good conscience have uncovered in trying to bring the truth to light. I hope the prosecution worked as hard as we all did.

    Our court system is not perfect, but it’s as good as it gets in a lot of ways.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      excellent comment, willis. i do not get overly emotional around here but i can say that it has been an honor to work through evidence and issues with this great group of folks for the past year.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      It does feel like a special occasion, doesn’t it? I am looking forward to get past the speculations and into the tral. And it is good to have a place with people you know to share it with.

  68. ay2z says:

    live activities in courtroom, so maybe there will be something going on soon, wftv speculates Potential jurors may be coming in.

  69. willisnewton says:

    Is Shellie Zimmerman present and is she speaking with the family, her husband, his defense lawyers, etc?

    I’m curious to know if she is still living with her husband or not. Since being charged with perjury, her interests and his are no longer the same and she has retained her own lawyer. The possibility exists, however remote, that she has been offered a secret deal to testify for the state.

    The same remote possibility exists for others in the extended family who had knowledge of the hidden PayPal money – any one of them (and all of them together) might be under a secret indictment regarding money-laundering type crimes, and the first one to make a deal for testifying in exchange for immunity might be the one who is conspicuously absent at trial.

    (Hey, anything is possible.)

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i just reviewed trent sawyer’s upload of the first few minutes and it does appear as if we get our first public view of the missus in a loooooong time. she does not appear to be interacting with anyone, but court was in session and we cannot know what is happening during this recess.

    • willisnewton says:

      thanks fauxmcoy. I’m hoping that my suspicions are correct and these rats have all turned upon one another. It would be a great day for justice to hear the truth come out of at least one of their mouths. Also highly entertaining, I might add.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @willisnewton who says

        I’m hoping that my suspicions are correct and these rats have all turned upon one another. It would be a great day for justice to hear the truth come out of at least one of their mouths. Also highly entertaining, I might add.

        ‘twould be a veritable soap opera!

  70. ay2z says:

    (break time commentary right now)

    there is a jury consultant for defendant, he’s got one of the ‘renowned’ expert to help them pick a jury

    • ay2z says:

      Schaeffer said he’s surprised that there is so much on scene interest in jury selection

      • ay2z says:

        WFTV talking about the jury consultant for the defense, how they can tell how a juror will vote, why defnese has one (top one) and state does not use one (budget).

  71. Rachael says:

    “He didn’t pull out a gun and shoot him,” said Zimmerman’s brother, Robert Zimmerman. “George has tremendous restraint. He prevented his firearm from being taken from him and used against him, and that’s called saving your life.”

    BULLEFFNSHEEYIT! He has the impulse control of my 3-year-old granddaughter.

    What’s he talking about. Hasn’t he seen the evidence, GZ’s own words.


  72. amsterdam1234 says:

    Can anyone explain the process to me. What is polling the jurors, and what part do we get to hear?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @amsterdam who asks

      Can anyone explain the process to me. What is polling the jurors, and what part do we get to hear?

      the term ‘polling’ jurors is usually used in context with the verdict, where each member of the jury is ‘polled’ to say their personal verdict.

      what is happening right now is that a group of 100 potential jurors has received the jury questionnaire as prepared by judge nelson. the judge, along with all lawyers and the defendant will go to that room, meet with potential jurors and then groups of 21 will be brought into the court room for individual voir dire.

      the recess now is for potential jurors to complete their questionnaires and the meeting with the judge et al.

    • ay2z says:

      sounds like a written set of questions done beforehand, Schaeffer just said the jury consultant expert for defense would have much to say about these questions, and a key question included, could be a red flag for a jury consultant as to how they are going to vote.

      Tens of thousands of dollars for a jury consultant. State does not have a jury consultant they say, state has budget problem to have a jury expert.

      Consultant, Hirsham. (sp?)

    • bettykath says:

      the jury process that i’ve seen starts with those having problems serving giving the judge their excuses and getting excused or not.

  73. ay2z says:

    Denied !

    Looks like Judge Nelson was dealing with the motion to delay trial first thing.

  74. KittySP says:

    think if you have satellite radio they might pick it up

  75. acemayo says:

    Here’s the thing nobody wants to just come right out and admit: Except for a very, VERY rare few exceptions… having ANY black jurors whatsoever is basically an automatic mistrial hung jury guaranteed and also instantly not a fair trial for GZ. If they want to go to outrageous lengths to find one of the 5 objective black people in the country re: this case… well, have fun with that… finding some people who will pretend to be objective will be substantially easier.

    • whonoze says:

      Source please?

    • Malisha says:

      “Objective” means “agreeing with me.”

      • LeaNder says:

        Of course it does, what do you think? Dare you suggesting I could be biased? My name is objectivity pure and simple, but I could easily list a couple of groups that are collectively biased. It’s a bit genetic you know.

        Know why that my be? I mean, me being objectively pure as water? I have a direct phone line to the Almighty who sees it all and knows it all. That’s why. 😉

      • malisha i’m so mad they won’t post half the shit i’m trying to say.. and i’m being kinda diplomatic… not screaming George is a Murderer!! but they clearly are monitoring the chats closely!

    • Malisha says:

      Well, naturally, the author of that paragraph feels that any white man (or Afro-Peruvian) should be immune to being judged by a “peer” who is not white (or Afro-Peruvian) like him — otherwise it is not fair.

      Why don’t we go ahead and do that, country-wide, all courts. Only whites can serve on juries trying white defendants, OK?

      But … uh … how about only Blacks being on the juries that try Black defendants. Would the author of that paragraph like to go “separate but equal” on that one?

      And of course we might want to reverse all those previously executed death sentence cases just to make sure they were constitutional, right?

      That kind of thinking has gotten us into big trouble before. Like it has made people like Fogen think they could kill people like Trayvon Martin and just walk away from it and keep their guns.

      • bettykath says:

        yea, we already tried that. all white juries see all blacks as guilty. we’ve tried that too when the juries were dispensed with as being not needed. just hang ’em.

        i expect to see a somewhat diverse jury.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That’s such an incredibly repugnant statement above. I suppose it comes from a Treeper type who yells about “BGI” and claims they’re not racist.

    • Tzar says:

      but Zimmerman is AFRO-Peruvian, so problem at all

  76. Trained Observer says:

    Is there a radio station carrying this live? Will be on road later this week.

  77. KittySP says:

    session currently in recess to poll jurors.

  78. Toni pip, says: I am in the same seat I will have for the entire trial, right behind Shellie Zimmerman and George’s other supporters.

  79. Rachael says:

    Maybe GZ ran off

  80. amsterdam1234 says:

    Anybody caught when they’ll start again?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      JN said 20 minutes — but we’re talking orlando time, so who knows?

      • LeaNder says:

        fauxy, I may have missed matters. Will we have only jury selection today, or will we hear the last voice expert while they handle their questionnaires downstairs? I didn’t get that.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          today should be all jury selection and i expect that to continue for 2 weeks or so. i think JN said she would finish the frye hearing after the jury is empaneled.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


      • LeaNder says:

        thanks fauxy.

        What a pity, I wonder who is the next, and if he now had to take his plane back home? I admittedly found that interesting. While I agree with Frederick that it does not help them. But yes, quite possibly it was only a trick to cross-examine without having to pay for deposition.

        Rene Stutzman reports Shellie Zimmerman in the court next to Fogen’s body guard. Next to the c room, she wrote I think. is that the door on the left? I am following Jeff Weiner’s twitter. But he wrote nothing how long it would take.

        Non serious comment. Did Fogen swap ties with O’Mara?

      • LeaNder says:

        Rene Stutzman ‏@renestutzman 27m

        Shellie #Zimmerman sitting next to bodyguard near c-room front row. #TrayvonMartin

        • fauxmccoy says:

          trent has the first few minutes of trial uploaded already and i think that is is shellie just to the right of o’mara when he tries to argue for sanctions/continuance.

      • LeaNder says:

        thanks fauxy, next to Pipitone, if that is how he spells?

      • OMG shellie is on the far right.. no comments on the woman’s appearance b.c it’s kinda rude..but she is a Fucking liar and grifter!

  81. elcymoo says:

    I saw a comment at ClickOrlando that it was good to see Shellie in court supporting Z. I tuned in a bit late. Did anyone else see her?

  82. looolooo says:

    WTF! InSession is NOT showing this trial! And WORSE, neither is CNN’s Live Event stream!!! And my ipnone HLN screen is distorted (for the first time ever) so I can hear but not see what’s going on.

    What’s going on?! Anyone else having problems?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Go to the professor’s link for WildAboutTrial.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      i am getting the impression that you are attempting to view the trial on your phone. if that is the case and you have an android, you can go to the google store and download the free ‘zimmerman’ app. also, you have not really missed anything yet and court is taking a brief recess.

      • looolooo says:

        Thanks FAUX. Just downloaded a fogen app on my iphone 5. And it’s working fine.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          good to know looolooo — i have it downloaded, but have not used it yet. i will need to later today so i appreciate the update.

    • LeaNder says:

      Wildabout Trial

      I kept shifting around too, but wild about trial is definitively the best. Although i had problems too sound only and no image.

  83. Donna Flores says:

    I have faith, the 911 call alone will reflect that things didn’t happen the way George says they did. I can’t even make out when he supposedly drove up to Twin Lanes and parked. There is no way it happened the way he says it did. JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON

  84. amsterdam1234 says:

    Msnbc is streaming it live too. Here is the link

  85. OMG how dare they? i’ve never seen this before! sanctions and whining!
    they need to be sanctions for perpetrating lawyers!!

  86. looolooo says:

    Fogen STILL needs more TIME?!

  87. fauxmccoy says:

    the late mr. zimmerman — yup, actually late to his first day of his own trial. whadda putz!

  88. Dave says:

    Tracey Martin just gave a brief speech expressing faith in the justice system asking people to stay calm and peaceful and to pray for Trayvon and his family

  89. acemayo says:

    The defense will have a better chance with the jury if its members are older, more conservative citizens who believe in the right to bear arms, said both Hill and McClean.

    “If there are African-Americans on the jury, they are going to sympathize with Trayvon Martin more,” McClean said.

    Read more:

    Their can”t be any blacks on the jury we all look the same and
    think the same being againist GZ

    Photographs taken that night show Zimmerman with a broken nose
    Zimmerman says Martin grabbed the gun first and fired.

    Read more:

    How can photographs show GZ had a broken nose
    who said TM had the gun first and fired

  90. Shari says:

    I have a request to make of everyone who is going to trial watch. Every now and then would you all act as reporters? Leave a few comments telling us objectively what we are missing? I am going to watch but I know there’s no way I will see every minute. It’s summer and my kids are out of school. Thanks.

  91. dianetrotter says:

    Unrelated – 2 police officers were fired for beating and dragging a black woman into a jail cell. It’s all on tape. Police ignored the woman’s written complaint. She got an attorney who is representing the fired black police chief. This is the city where James Byrd was dragged on the back of a truck.

    • Woow! says:

      Jasper, TX is where this happened. East Texas is the most racist back woods place there is. I live in Dallas and only travel between Dallas and Houston.

      Once you leave out of the major cities you are subjected to good ole boys that racial profile the heck out of you.

      • Donna Flores says:

        Jaspar, Tx is also where James Bryd was killed by being tied to the end of a truck and dragged to his death in 1998.
        Jaspar and Vidor are scary places. I rarely go near there.

        • Shari says:

          I live near Vidor which was profiled on CNN for it’s racism and the fact that even today black people do not feel welcome. I have been told to make sure I don’t run out of gas in Vidor. There are many cities within a 50 mile radius of where I live that are similar. Every day I wake up wondering why on Earth am I raising my children in the south. Oh well.

    • i saw that horrendous video, they’re wondering how the sound suddenly disappeared! they should be imprisoned those cops!! unbelievable!

    • Nef05 says:

      I saw that. I believe the lady’s attorney got a federal court order (injunction?) preventing the police dept from doing anything to the evidence (videos and such) since they’re already wondering what happened to the audio and the police are claiming their video system does not provide audio, since it’s “too old” and doesn’t have that ability. They should have been fired when it happened. The video, by itself, was clear that she didn’t represent a physical threat to the officers.

  92. Good morning, everyone! Here we are at trial. Let justice be done!

    Hoodies up!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      June 10 on the left coast – I’m finding it hard to sleep . . . hoodies ready and up!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        funny we both say ‘left coast’ here 🙂 praying for sleep, if just a bit in northern CA

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Hopefully you have a bit more dark and quiet up that way. It’s a constant buzz down here in Carmageddon.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          although my cityscape is most certainly quieter, both daughters are celebrating the end of the school year and i probably have 6 young teen girls underfoot. nothing quiet here inside, maybe i’ll get the sleeping bag out and go sleep with my cat 🙂 was 112 deg here over the weekend and it has cooled off ever so slightly, thank heavens!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @sg2 — oh hush SG, some of us poor left coasters have yet to get some sleep. i pray that i get a bit, at least. this schedule will be rough on my disabled body.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        3,803 posts to the Leatherman Blog from Thursday morning through Sunday night – covering the Frye Hearings!

        Personally, my retinas are getting fryed …

        • fauxmccoy says:


          time for a new thread, i reckon. it’s pickin’ time… jury pickin that is 🙂 X -4hours, 25 minutes.

          was just chatting with the husband that it’s been a long ass time since we signed that petition. i’m so glad to have met ALL you wonderful folks along the way and grateful to fred for all the lessons in law plus a lovely spot to hang out.

          justice for trayvon!

  93. ay2z says:

    Eve of trial.

  94. Woow! says:

    Here is a link to the picture with the blood stain on Jon’s garage door.

    • ay2z says:

      It appears that this photo could have been taken on the night, but there’s not date. The mark does look red and it’s possible that whatever it is, may have had rain on it to cause the streaking.

      Guess we shall see, or not, what this is about at trial.

    • ay2z says:

      and thanks 🙂

    • willisnewton says:

      That’s a link to a picture of SOMETHING on a door frame. Saying it’s blood is a HUGE stretch. If you are speculating that it might be blood you need to say so.

      It’s also clear that the police were uninterested in it since there was at least one television crew in that same area that evening and nothing about this ever made it into evidence or was seen by reporters at the scene.

      Maybe you “solved the case” but we’ll never know.

      • Woow! says:

        @willisnewton – I’m not speculating aboaut anything and did not know of the picture’s existence until reading up top where someone mentioned the picture and they would try and find it. I did a Google search and found it and posted the link. 🙂

        The police was not interested in anything. I hope the whole lot of them have horrible nightmare’s because of this. These people should think this could have geen one of their children.

      • willisnewton says:

        There were three murders in Sanford the previous year. To say the SPD was “uninterested” is a huge overstatement.

        I’m sure plenty of them have children too.

        Absent a credible outside investigation into the actions of the SPD and norm Wolfingers office I’m not prepared to say what happened in the department or their investigation.

        Serino and Singleton worked hard on the case and they gave George enough rope to hang himself. Serino seems to have had to do so despite his boss, and half the city council. He’s working nights as a patrolman now. Maybe he didn’t do a perfect job and maybe he knows that.

        But ask yourself what YOU really know before you point fingers.

      • Malisha says:

        Willisnewton, I don’t believe the police were “uninterested”; I DO believe that they were given the sign, very VERY early on, that this was going to be a “self-defense” determination and that they should NOT come up with alternative explanations for how Trayvon Martin (or John Doe) got dead. This is not all that unusual. Remember, Fogen was a friend to the current police chief and helped him overcome his successor; there was a very nasty political fight within the department when that happened. We do not have all the ins and outs of it. I did sense in carefully listening to ALL Serino’s recorded interviews with Fogen the following:

        1. Serino felt restrained and felt that there were things he was not permitted to say to Fogen. He would drop his voice, for instance, when saying phrases like “That was not a punk.”

        2. Serino said things that sounded like he was repeating them like a mantra: “You’re still the good guy” and “I have to ask this” and the like. Very peculiar tone of voice when he did that.

        3. Singleton also quickly corrected herself when she started to sound aggressive, such as “you want us to pretend… uh, you’re telling us…”

        Frankly, I don’t have much faith that the evaluation of what SPD with this particular homicide case will be performed up to a standard I would think appropriate, but I should be used to that by now, having lived through a few big public federal investigations in my time.

      • Woow! says:

        Like I said before I am not speculating about anything and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking my posts. I do not know which officers did or did not do what but I do know a decision was made not to charge him initially and that is what I was inadvertently referring.

        I do hope each person who tried to cover up this tragedy take a long look at him/herself, who ever they may be, and think that this could have been their child and possible know how Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin feels.

        I am not to posting on blogs on have been on here for maybe 2 weeks but I will lurk in the shadows from now on.

      • Woow! says:

        I meant to say I am new to posting blogs and I was responding the willisnewton.

      • Malisha says:

        Woow, I didn’t mean to come off as if I was attacking your post. If I came off that way I apologize sincerely. We will all be in a “wait and see” posture for quite a while, I’m sure.

      • Woow! says:

        Thanks Malisha, I was responding to Willisnewton’s comment I tried to correct that to show I did not mean you. Sorry for the confusion 🙂

  95. groans says:

    LLMPapa says:

    The ONLY thing I’ve demanded starts tomorrow.

    @ Professor – How about applying that theme to your headline and article tomorrow (today)?

  96. groans says:

    IT’S JUNE 10TH!!!

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks Papa and Nef05

      • Leisa says:

        Wow. That brought back a lot of memories for me. My mother learned all of that years ago in Virginia Beach. She passed in January this year and I have a box full of her charts and books. There is a chart in her box with my name on. Thanks!

      • Nef05 says:

        You’re welcome ay2z. It’s a hobby I became interested in when I was about Trayvon’s age, and it was not lost on me, when I looked at it, that he will never have the opportunity to simply pursue the things that interested him. Discuss them with friends and family and like his interest in aeronautics, maybe turn them into a career. Sometimes the smallest things will hit you, and you realize all over again what was taken from this young man and his family.

  97. Woow! says:

    Do you think jury selection will take all day and when will the trial actually begin once the jury has been selected?

  98. Woow! says:

    If the prosecution show the picture of George with the crooked bloody I hope the prosecution team have proof the photo was photo shopped and refute that mess.

    I really hope prosecution has information to refute everything MOM try to use in court.

    • Xena says:

      The picture of George’s nose is overcome by his medical report that says it was “likely broken”, and recommended he see an EMT, and that he refused.

      The fact that he was cleaned up by EMTs, then sat in the police station for hours without so much as an aspirin for pain, pretty much overcomes his claim that Trayvon caused him so much pain that he feared for his life.

    • Shari says:

      I sure hope there is an official police photo taken at the station. He’s also going to need a medical record/X ray.

  99. ay2z says:

    Had not seen this album before, there are some nice photos of Trayvon here.

    What birthday was this, when he wore his red T shirt? 16th? He had that T shirt in August 2012.

    • Shari says:

      Thanks for the link! It’s nice to see pictures of him when he was alive and happy. Looks like a normal American kid to me! Prom, fishing with dad, birthdays with his family!

      There is no punishment harsh enough for what Fogen has done. He is breathing stolen air. Jail will have to do.

      If you are a believer please pray for BDLR and his team. He has tried cases before but he is only human. He must be aware that the world is watching him. Pray that he is prepared for what the defense may do and pray that he is ready to speak for the victim. Pray that his mind is sharp, that he gets enough rest, that he doesn’t forget all the legal objections, and that he stays focused and tells the story of the crime succinctly and makes it plain for the jury.

  100. Valerie says:

    In a past hearing,Omara requested Judge Nelson’s jury questions…so he could go over them. She kindly reminded him he didn’t need to do that as she replied “this is my courtroom”. I am confident she will not allow Omara and West to run amok and turn this into a circus.

  101. dianetrotter says:

    I read somewhere above that GZ was recorded at the club house before the NEN call. Is it possible that BDLR can prove that GZ was not on the way to Target? That could lead into the reason he was out trolling in the rain. Since his gig is not a paid job, why was he out in the rain?

    • i said that he was on tape at the club house.
      which has always bothered me because it disproves his first stupid lie that he was on his way to target when he simply spotted Trayvon and decided to make it his freakin business to butt into his life!!!

      and i hope that BDLR does use that to lay out the real story of what that POS did.
      he was out on patrol, he’s done it before and he was doing it on feb 26 2012.

  102. Someone has to say it…..I just appointed me to do it……. 🙂


    No more tick tocks….


    • fauxmccoy says:


      nope, no more tick tocks — i’m just hoping i can get to sleep at a decent time to be ‘up and at em’ at 6 am. this schedule is sure gonna mess with my already effed up sleep schedule, but it’s sooooo worth it!

    • Rachael says:

      See y’all here bright and early (for me on the west coast anyway) with hoodie UP and coffee on.

    • groans says:

      I love that “Are we ready to rumble” – and I hear and see LLMPapa’s videos each time we say it! What a great sound – I’d never heard it before this!

  103. kllypyn says:

    As his trial starts,we should all remember he didn’t just kill trayvon while he begged for his life. He didn’t just kill him as he desperately tried to break free from his grip. He terrorized him before he killed him.Trayvon went through hell before he was killed. We’ve all heard those screams we must not forget that.

  104. see if this works.
    look at all the racist protesters showing up and rioting at the courthouse already! LOLOL LMAO!!

  105. LLMPapa says:

    On the eve of George Michael Zimmerman’s trial for Murder in the Second Degree, I’d like to take a moment to say something to the Professor, Crane Station, and the members of this site.

    I’ve marched in Sanford, I’ve signed petitions, and as of last week have carried a message to over 200,000 viewers on YouTube.

    The ONLY thing I’ve demanded starts tomorrow.

    To ALL who’ve been on this long journey beside me, I salute you!

    Justice For Trayvon!

    • BillT says:

      a righteous job well done sir.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      We salute you right back. Hoodies up!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      You voice for justice has been powerful through your videos.

      With a caring heart you have dedicated supportive videos to Sabrina and Tracy and lifted up the memory of Trayvon so that he will live on in our hearts and minds.

      You have cut through to the key pieces of evidence with moving results.

      And, through your videos, you have supported and brought out dramatically the discoveries and conclusions of many Trayvon advocates here.

      Well done, LLMPapa!

      • Nef05 says:

        The salute is to you, LLMPapa, the Professor , Crane Station and my fellow posters. Your individual lights shine together as bright as a super nova, illuminating the tragedy and injustices dealt to an innocent child. The incredible videos you’ve created, the Prof and Crane’s articles and the comments and insights of my fellow posters have gifted me with a clarity of vision far beyond whatever insight I would have had alone. For that I thank all of you. It is I who salute you!

    • parrot says:

      You are humility in greatness, Papa.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. Love you. The first video I saw regarding this case was your “How. Part 3.” JB embedded it on TheJBMission. That hooked me. You sir, deserve the salute.

      Justice for Trayvon!

    • Job well done, LLMPapa! Job well done.

      I salute you!

    • colin black says:

      Its been an honour with people like you an the Prof Marinade Dave Xena Black butterfly Marsha an so many Mountain Man Pat Faux even val frm hinky whom I know is lurking an reading a self an speak.

      Not just for TRAYVON AN HIS KITH AN KIN.
      bUn even rarely commenting anon of course
      Theres so many shanon in Miamai an from the CAYLEE DAYS we all band together an .
      Im not the most eloquent or gifted writer .

      I feel emboldened by reading an spending time with our world wide commune Jun from Canada Leander an Amsterdam Crane an Prof I can use you all to stand on your shoulders an rise above my self and our selfs.

      Together we have a voice to speak out not only for TRAYVON and his Kin.
      But for all the injustices an racialy bigoted murders ocouring more an more often.

      Playing loud rap music bang yourd Self Defence .
      Not just racists hatred an bigtry comes in all shapes an forms as people like Jodi arrias show us.

      This world if full of vile contemptable people .

      Let us hope that after this trial foggagge no longer walks amongst us .

      And any others whom may have acted as he did will reconsider there actions an at least some good will have come from this tagic waste of an innocents life.

      That an the chance I got to learn so much an meet so many smart an courageous genuine honest souls

      God bless you all.

      Colin A Black

      • May your journeys be easy….and you loads be light…….

      • ay2z says:

        Colin, would have been wonderful to have Val’s commentary on the science of Frye, even as it turned into a mini-trial of opinions and evidence rather than so much about the methodology.

        Val, if you are checking here from time to time, a big hello! Miss your humor, dedication and writings.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Colin Black, I don’t think any of us here are prolific in composing our comments but, we each get the point of what each other is saying none the less. we are all complete strangers but, we all came here one by one and we are now no longer strangers because, we have shared so much of who we are with each other in a round about way.

        I don’t know how but, we all seemed to have found our way to this site, in order to find a peaceful site where one can have a commonsense discussion about the murder of 17 year old child, without the hassle and harassment of those (racist) who would love to see this man get away with his crime.

        After trying to have a civil discussion on one other site HP, there was no way to do that because of people with racist attitudes, have been allowed to take over on that site. these people have been permitted to get away with saying all kinds of things about this murdered child and his family. even though HP is not alone in the way they allow those with racist attitudes to have their stinking comments posted on their sites,

        This is a murder case, a child is dead and the only thing that some in this country can see fit to do, is vilify the victim and his family. this is also a good place to learn with Professor at the helm.

        Colin, GOD bless you too and, let’s not stop until justice Trayvon and his family receive their justice. J4TBM

    • Rachael says:

      Than you LLMPapa for all you do and all the truth you’ve shed. We are all on this journey togther and we’ve reached a milestone. We will continue together, stronger than ever with truth and love for what we are no longer seeking but that which we will obtain, Justice for Trayvon.

      Hoodies UP!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thank you, LLMPapa for all your video presentations, insightful and persuasive to the max.

    • ZCBest says:

      You rock Papa!

    • Ty Flair says:

      I salute you Sir! Your videos are priceless.

    • Valerie says:

      Professor and LLMPapa…thanks for all you have done…Justice 4 Trayvon…with Godspeed. Hoodies UP !!!

      • ay2z says:

        Hoodies UP!!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hoodies up!

        We have not left Trayvon in the rain…..we have led him to the door of justice!

        The wild and windy night that the rain washed away
        Has left a pool of tears crying for the day.
        Why leave me standing here, let me know the way.
        Many times I’ve been alone and many times I’ve cried.
        Anyway you’ll never know the many ways I’ve tried,
        And still they lead me back to the long and winding road
        You left me standing here a long, long time,
        Don’t leave me waiting here, lead me to [JUSTICE’s]door

    • diary73 says:

      It is you whom I salute, sir!

    • elcymoo says:

      Thanks so much for all your efforts on Trayvon’s behalf, Papa. Your videos have helped me and others here so much in clarifying the evidence against the child-killer.

    • groans says:

      Thank you so much for the link, LLMPapa! I’ve often wondered what you look like!!

      • gbrbsb says:


        Apart from this knight a la round table, holy grail, etc., I think I am correct in saying there is a photo of LLMPapa and his son (outdoors and I think near a waterfront or something) in one of his earlier tribute videos to Trayvon.

  106. elcymoo says:

    Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:36 PM PDT

    Freeze-Fryed in Florida
    byMarinade Dave


  107. ay2z says:

    On my way to find the garage door photo, I first re-listened to this, and noticed something that must be a slip…. right?

    “….shell casings….” (Gilbreath’s statement)

    • ay2z says:

      Xena, add in the version fogen told Serino, about the flashlight in his hand at the T as he continued on his way to his vehicle and when he got punched.

      Fogen drop the keychain with tiny flashlight at the T on purpose? Or were there two flashlights he said were not working? Keychain light, from what I’ve heard, was ‘on’ when found. (that would be designed for lighting a keyhole in a house or car, not a suspect)

      • ay2z says:

        (I don’t mean literallly, add into the video, just into the pile of versions fogen gives, from circling his car after heading down between houses, to the varieties of cell phone, flashlight, configurations of what where at the punch.)

      • colin black says:

        I m o he walks to the T to drop keychain small flash light,
        To bolster his lie of ambush at T whilst ambling slowly back to his shtuch.

        Aleady in cover up operation I just shot an innocen child mode.

        He did besue Trayvon from south near Trayvons safe haven .
        An he murdered him after illegally detaining wrist locking inteorogateing
        An then executeing him as he was now a nuciance an a arrest for HIM
        As LE would arrive any second running out of time BANG
        End of problem
        Walk to T drop som e items to establish initial attack
        Then lie an embellish lie an embellish some more.

        So what if it makes no sence who it going to contradict a fine upstanding MERICAN like him

        Against a cold dead Child silenced for ever all because foggagge desided it was more expedient for an innocent KID to die .

        Than explain to the cops why was he rampageing through the retreat like RAMBO terrriseing young Children spending time with his Father an Baby sitting his step Brother.

        • Xena says:

          @Colin Black. Jon said that he saw GZ walking in his direction or rather, toward the T. It was Jon who took photos of Trayvon’s body, the tactical flashlight, and the back of GZ’s head. When looking at those 3 photos, the one of GZ’s head has lighting, causing me to believe that Jon used the key chain flashlight to give more light to the photo.

          On one of the police reports, it says that Officer Smith had two men in custody. That gives reason to believe that when Jon saw Smith, he dropped the flashlight, leaving it on. GZ answered Smith that he shot Trayvon, and it was then that Smith handcuffed him.

          Well, Jon wasn’t about to bend down and pick up anything from the ground after that. He failed to provide LE with the photos until after he gave the head photo to ABC as an “exclusive.”

      • Xena says:

        @ay2z. There are many things that GZ omits in his story. He omitted that he asked the dispatcher to have the cop call for his location. He omits when he dropped either flashlight. He omits that Jon took the photo of the back of his head, and that he was on the phone when that occurred. He omits any mention of seeing Trayvon’s cell phone. GZ also omits that after getting the address he alleges to have stayed out of his truck to get, that he failed to call Sean back with that address.

      • Rachael says:

        Xena: “@Colin Black. Jon said that he saw GZ walking in his direction or rather, toward the T. It was Jon who took photos of Trayvon’s body, the tactical flashlight, and the back of GZ’s head. When looking at those 3 photos, the one of GZ’s head has lighting, causing me to believe that Jon used the key chain flashlight to give more light to the photo.”

        Sheeyit – a lightning bolt just went through my brain.

        • Xena says:


          Sheeyit – a lightning bolt just went through my brain.

          Don’t keep it to yourself. Please, share it!

      • aussie says:

        Why all this speculation? there are witness statements all over the place.

        Jon took his own flashlight with him when he ran out to see what’s going on. He would have used that to light the head for his photo.

        The photo (and keychain light) were up near the T. The arrest took place back down near the body (which Jon photographed before the police got there).

        So Jon did NOT use the keychain light for his head photo and he did NOT drop it when Smith arrived, as he wasn’t even where that light was dropped when Smith got there.

        Facts, people. Facts.


        • Xena says:


          The photo (and keychain light) were up near the T.


          The arrest took place back down near the body …

          How do you know that?

          So Jon did NOT use the keychain light for his head photo and he did NOT drop it when Smith arrived, …

          And you base this on your unsupported fact for where GZ was handcuffed?

  108. Two sides to a story says:

    Thank you, Professor. It’s sometimes hard to understand all the legal twists and turns in this case. You keep it real.

  109. fauxmccoy says:

    for crane station

    a graphic illustration of the saying i posted to you last week regarding florida “the farther north you go, the more south you get”

    this came to me from a wonderful site i subscribe to called ‘A Word a Day”. every day, i get an email with weekly themes about words and etymology. yes, i am that nerd. at the end of the week, the host sends out an email with links to interesting articles about our language. i highly recommend it to all interested 🙂

  110. Rob says:

    Want i’ve always wondered if fagen was on his back and he had to reach under his body to grab his gun wouldn’t it be dirt,mud,and grass on the gun and inside the holster when he put the gun back in it, in the gun photos i didn’t see any of debri on it, therefore i think the gun was already out when he walked up to TM.

    • PYorck says:

      Yes, there are serious problem with the story how he drew his gun.

    • good one, except jackass has an answer for that, he shimmied hips up, so he didn’t get grass and dirt on his gun and holster.

      just like gz didn’t let Trayvon get any of his DNA on his hands when gz was allowing him to pummel his bloody face and head.

      because it never freakin happened!

    • Nef05 says:

      I’ve been asking that question for months now and the only response I’ve gotten, from Zimmerlovers is that “the gun was on his hip”. In other words, they totally disregard any facts (it was under him) that dispute their narrative, even if those facts come directly from fogen’s own mouth and is on videotape.

      IF O’Mara puts him on the stand, i really hope this is one the questions BDLR asks him.

  111. Dave says:

    OK, so Trayvon and his buddy made a video recording of a couple of guys fighting. They didn’t instigate the fight. They didn’t participate in the fight. It’s possible that their presence convinced the two fighters that it would be best to break it up and go their separate ways before somebody got hurt.

    • colin black says:

      If some one had a camera phone an filmed foggagges an TRAYVONS fatal altercation on the night he was MURDERED.
      Then Trayvon would still be alive an foggagge wouldn’t be shitting his pants or adult diepers about now an crying for his momma .

    • notice his affect. he’s just giggling, he’s not instigating them, he’s not cussing at the men or with his friends! he’s actually a sweet kid! he’s kinda quiet if you ask me. seems a little shy!
      i have seen kids on youtube talking all kinds of smack, especially around his friends!

      no, this is tape actually should be allowed into court because it totally PROVES Trayvon is peaceful, just like his mom said! this really backfired on the defense! i swear this tape just goes to show they cannot convince a jury this kid went and started a fight with this POS who chased him after he ran away from him!!

  112. fauxmccoy says:

    another fabulous blog by debbie hines regarding the roles of the very strong women in this case. go debbie!

    (professor — i do hope that you do not mind posting links to other legal blogs. i think ms hines is awesome and as ‘on the money’ as are you.)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Awesome article. I think the defense will try to eliminate as many women from the selection as possible. I wish all six jurors could be women – I think women are very fair and don’t tolerate much BS when it comes to harming kids.

    • NO SHIT………………..

      I’m speechless………………..

    • elcymoo says:

      Except the two men aren’t engaged in a vicious fistfight; it’s more of a tussle between the two. I don’t think this tape is evidence of anything other than some kids laughing at grown men behaving foolishly in public.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @elcymoo —

        Elcy – PRECISELY! Sing it, Sister: “I don’t think this tape is evidence of anything other than some kids laughing at grown men behaving foolishly in public.”

      • @elcymoo

        Exactly! What does videoing a fight mean? People watch fights all the time. What law did he break?

        • I’m still speechless on why they would do it……

          Many questions…….and many possibilities…

          The only one, and no other that comes to my mind is?


          HOODIES UP


    • gbrbsb says:

      @shannoninmiami, shannon, PM, MMP, elcymoo

      Hold your horses everyone, its release is NOT a part of a smear campaign because DEFENCE & STATE are obliged to release the video as part of disclosure.

      The soundtrack of the video is a fundamental piece of evidence as it contains Trayvon talking, laughing and screaming. Its soundtrack was the recording the State’s gave to its audio experts to use for comparison with the 911 screams.

      Enjoy it and listen to Trayvon’s voice and see how well it compares with the 911 screams. It is fantastic it has been released and counterproductive jumping to erroneous conclusions.

  113. fauxmccoy says:

    off topic note to colin —

    i am ready, willing and able to help you with your computer issues. i checked my email, but saw nothing from you, but you did say you were having troubles with that. if it’s ok with you, can the professor send me your email and we can try to start that way? let us know.

    • colin black says:

      sure is or I think black butterfly might also have.
      But if Prof can gie it tae ye goan dae it hen.

      Yes please get it from prof need all help I can get re pc issues,
      I know how to work one but not why virus or Trojans or a t f they called eem to be able to set up shop
      I ran that malbytes scan thingy last night an it detected 82 ???whatevers
      An I installed that lava thing you mentioned.


      • fauxmccoy says:

        cool — also go to and download their free virus checker. keep it running and make sure that you have it set to download the current viruses to check for. i don’t want to spend an inordinate amount of time here on these issues, but the ‘ask jeeves’ thing is not a virus, just an annoyance and some add-on crap from another program you downloaded. i should be able to help you through this, but we need to be able to establish contact first.

      • aussie says:

        Colin I hope you let it fix the 82 whatevers it found, too.

        AVG and Norton are not going to co-exist. You can’t run two anti-virus at same time, and Norton will usually stop others being installed.

        Google the Ask Jeeves, there are many good step by step instructions for getting rid of it. Google it on the other machine,so you can follow the steps on the infected one.

      • LeaNder says:

        Kaspersky has quite good extra tools for exactly that type problem. I forget how it’s called at the moment. You run it differently from base one without allowing the complete start up. It’s not the ordinary internet or virus security it’s an extra tool. Malwarebytes is not bad either.

        If it is/was more serious stuff, I wonder if there is any way around a new installation. My dad caught some really vivious Troyan not too long ago. You could get rid of it but it practically seems to have entangled itself into close to everything. Getting rid of it seems to have erased a huge part of the necessary start up files in the process. Never seen something like that before. A lot of blank space in the safe mode startup. That’s how I realized it.

        I think you need him to allow you to look into his system. More easy than to trying to explain everything.

  114. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    For voice identification, I think it is extremely important to post the video that Trayvon made with his cellphone of two men scuffling over a bicycle. No one was hurt.

    I think that Trayvon’s video taping is no different than what news photographers do every day.

    FORTUNATELY, Trayvon laughed and commented as he filmed.
    You can hear his voice “crack” to a higher pitch both when he laughs and talks.

    I never doubted that what we have heard on W11″s 911 call was Trayvon desperately crying out for help.

    NOW, with this video, I am ABSOLUTELY certain it was Trayvon crying out for help on February 26, 2012.

    Just listen and you decide:

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thank you for posting. I hadn’t seen or heard before.

    • Xena says:

      @yahtc. Thanks for posting this. Something I’m wondering about —–

      Originally from Chicago, I’ve been exposed to language dialects as Chicago was like NY in being a migration capitol of people from the South. It sounds to me as though Trayvon had a slight Southern accent.

      Based on GZ’s verbal representations, we hear a Spanish dialect when he took the stand at his first bond hearing, and also in his begging video. Other than that, he seems to concentrate to avoid the dialect and places emphasis on pronunciation.

      In his voice exemplar, GZ places an emphasis on the “p” in help. We don’t hear that emphasis in the 911 recording.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        GZ speaks with a slight Southern drawl in parts of his NEN call. In fact, he seems to be a chameleon whose speech varies as he either tries to blend in or tries to please whomever he’s speaking to.

    • tharealkeisha says:

      He talks like he’s from here in New Orleans. He sounds like my
       ONLY son who will be 17 in Nov.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Trayvon doesn’t sound nasty or mean – he just sounds like he’s having a good chuckle with his friends.

      And yes, it sounds like the same voice screaming in the 911 call.

    • Malisha says:

      Several things:

      1. Nothing in there showed Trayvon Martin in a bad light; he was filming grown-ups behaving badly. My My My. But none of the grown-ups were armed, were they?

      2. Trayvon showed that his reaction to things was to find them ridiculous, not to become aggressive. Fogen saw a conflict (between underage drinkers and law enforcement officers) so he hauled off and jumped into the frey violently. Trayvon saw a conflict (between/among two or three guys, all of whom were able to handle themselves) so he hung back and recorded it. HAD there been a crime committed he would have been able to give the police a video of it. Fortunately, he judged it right: bad behavior by grown-ups that was essentially their own problem.

      3. How did O’Mara form the opinion that these men were homeless? The same way his client formed the opinion that Trayvon Martin was a “suspect”?

      4. Trayvon said exactly the right thing: “We need a ‘behind the scenes’ on this.” Yeah. You don’t know what’s going on when you see something that has no history and no antecedents. One could not conclude that these were homeless individuals OR that they were criminals OR that they were drug addicts OR that they were “up to no good.” One needs more information to come to any such conclusions; Trayvon was a rational person.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Great points. I hadn’t thought of it this way until now.

      • Tee says:

        Trayvon was just being a kid and recording and laughing at a fight. Teens do things like this, he’ll grown-ups do things like that. Do’t make him bad don’t make him good just make him a teenage human.

      • LeaNder says:

        Malisha, had read your comment before would have saved mine.

        Strictly someone here alerted us to a bit of Dr. Phil show, where a guy was invited who makes money with this type of fight videos. This Dr. Phil seems to be the typical bigots I cannot stand, he showed some of the videos and then feigned moral indignation about the content of the videos to the extend that he denied to speak with the guy, who was present. He of course knew all this before a purely staged show at moral indignation, while even promoting the stuff at the same time.

        When I saw the video the first time, I had the impression that there is a short indication that this may well be what Trayvon vaguely had in mind. At least he seems to have known about it.

        Not that it matters much though, and I didn’t check that passage again.

      • LeaNder says:

        Ok, first:

        Malisha, had I read your comment before itwould have saved mine.

        I checked again, it seems to be the driver that is more aware about it. His comment is followed by Trayvon: We need a behind the scene. This signifies he understands quite well what this guy means concerning making money.

        Basically this video confirms what DeeDee says, Trayvon seems to have been someone that you may want to be around. A funny guy.

      • GirlP says:

        Teens have been doing this for years now not that I approve but they video everything. Kids as a matter of fact many adults tend to gather around a fist fight, and this fight was mild compared to others. Trayvon most certainly did not referee it either had nothing to do with it other than witnessing it. How O’Mara lives with himself I do not know.

        • Shari says:

          And he knows that most people will not look at the video for themselves. With most people confirmation bias sets in and they will search for facts to confirm what “MOM” is saying. People have a tendency to stop and gawk at public disputes/fights. I have done it, I’m sure we all have.

    • LeaNder says:

      It’s clearly not a fight over a bicycle either. Otherwise one of them wouldn’t walk away with two while one of both gets into his car. There is no indication either that any one of them is a homeless guy. Out of what part of the images exactly do they read this? I am deeply puzzled.

      Homeless seems only necessary to connect the video to Fogen’s alleged concern about the Wade incident, where all I can see so far is that he did want to rob the former police chief of his probably well earned money. Is there any indication he was aware of the story and helped cover it up?

    • gbrbsb says:

      “No one was hurt”

      Yes, but you wouldn’t just understand that from the way MOM described it in court the other day. I mean wtf, how can he describe it as a “beating up”… since when was a light scuffle, a push and pull, or a wrestling hold or two, enough to called a “beating up” ?! I suppose he has to exaggerate here so as to justify calling GZ’s few scratches and bumps, imo probably from walking into a bush while pursuing Trayvon, a “beating up”.

      Thanks for posting and are you still going away for now?

  115. colin black says:

    Rachael says:

    June 9, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    willis they have what might be a pic of osterman at a bank nearby and some have speculated that he tipped gz off becausevthey didn’t say tell shellie he shot someone, they said tell her he shot someone ELSE. So the question was what was meant by someone else? Did that mean he has shot another person (as in he shot somenoe before and now has shot someone else) or he shot someone else as in someone other than who he was “supposed” to. It is an old conspiracy theory.
    Yeah but he is such a moron an having married said moron

    An lived in his orbit its quite possible with his prcticeing quick draws in front of a mirror.

    Robert De nero impersonations.
    Are you looking at me ?

    Are you looking at me ect

    She ogten though what a friggin moron I married one day he is going to blow his foot off or a hand.

    Could be she was incredulas he had managed to shoot another person.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Could be, Colin. I regret Fogen didn’t blow his own hand off. Might have protected Trayvon from sustaining a fatal wound.

    • LeaNder says:

      I haven’t looked into any of this argument, addmittedly.

      But, Colin, strictly couldn’t she* simply use the term “someone else” as signifying some other than himself? Meaning the more general meaning. We do not always express as perfectly as we should. Prepared yourself for this type of argument from the defense concerning Fogen’s diverse statements during the trial. In other words intended meaning and statements do not always coincide perfectly.

      * I understand this alludes to a statement by Shellie Z.

      • LeaNder says:

        OK, I changed some sentences and did not proofread after, I hope you get what I mean anyway? 😉

      • LeaNder says:

        In any case, remembering Fogen’s Hannity interview, could she use this vague and abstract term to signify someone she preferred to verbally keep at arms length, the same way her husband apologised to pretty much everybody before he tweased in Trayvon’s parents shortly before America at large.

        That is a point I missed in the book by Earl Ofari Hutchington. Journalists sometimes feel overly pressured to be “balanced”.

        To me it already feels like a misrepresentation when someone writes Fogen excused to Trayvon’s parents during the Hannity interview. He cannot let them get any closer than as part of the America at large out there, it feels.

      • parrot says:

        I don’t think so, LeaNder,

        In this context one would say “He shot somebody” NOT “He shot someone ELSE.”

        It may be that she has her personal linguistic idiosyncrasies, and meant nothing more than he shot someone, but this is an ODD way to express it.

        It will leave a lingering doubt about whether we know all there is to know about GZ’s intent that night.

        • LeaNder says:

          You point is well taken, parrot. But personally I wouldn’t put Shellie in a linguistically aware category of people. But yes, strictly it could signify something, i agree. But compared to some here I prefer to not hold my breath concerning any deep revelations from Shellie. Maybe I am slightly biased concerning the shift from cosmetics to nursing.

          i know I should either stop using this interface or alert WordPress to the comments doubling bug.

  116. ABA Coalition on Racial & Ethnic Justice holds hearing on ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws.

    At a Thursday hearing, Illinois Appellate Court Judge Michael Hyman, chair of the ABA Coalition on Racial & Ethnic Justice, laid out the questions that the ABA’s National Task Force on Stand Your Ground Laws is grappling with—and that he said the nation has to face—in the wake of the 2012 Trayvon Martin shooting in Florida and similar cases.

    “Do ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws make our society safer, or more dangerous?” Hyman asked. “Do they save lives, or do they take more lives? Are they neutral, or do they disproportionately impact people of color?”

    The task force held this Stand Your Ground Hearing—the second of four planned hearings around the country—at the ABA’s headquarters building in Chicago.

    On the books in about 30 states, Stand Your Ground laws expand the definition of self-defense traditionally understood to encompass threats to one’s home or person, said Leigh-Ann A. Buchanan, co-chair of the task force. Cook County Circuit Court Clerk Dorothy Brown objected to the fact that these laws can give an untrained person the ability to become “investigator, judge, jury and executioner all in one.”

    • Xena says:

      @SG2. Interesting. The Illinois Bill on conceal carry is on the Governor’s desk to be signed. But, in the most populace city in Illinois, people have conceal carried all along. All that law will do is give them the right to claim self-defense in the event they are witnessed or found to be the one pulling the trigger.

      It has been discussed here also that the people most at risk with conceal carry in Illinois are plain clothes law enforcement officers and repo persons.

      • LeaNder says:

        The last paragraph was vaguely on my mind when I read the first. I have no problem at all with law enforcement carrying concealed. But there is an idea in American conservative and right wing circles that they somehow have to be prepared to fight the government at one point in the future. …

        What I find somehow odd concerning SYG is that it does not allow you to show the weapon or fire a warning shot. Thus the one that carries is at an absolute strategic advantage, who ever he confronts may not even know how serious the situation he got in is, till it is too late. If I face a plain clothes I definitively, especially if I have something to hide, I immediately realize what this is about. Gives me a better chance to survive it feels. If we do not consider the most extreme scenarios or cops.

      • LeaNder says:

        I shouldn’t have squeezed the for me odd idea about at one point having to defend against the government in there. I even heard that from a former military intelligence officer.

        We only have that on the hard right if you do not consider the limited time frame of terrorism on the extreme left in the 70s over here. But there is a little evidence that radicalization of some of the left wing circles happened over the services that provided weapons to them.

        I find the idea odd somehow since obviously all our governments are well prepared for crowd control. All you need is a state of emergency and the little chance you may have with your guns is gone away.


    • Two sides to a story says:

      z’Cook County Circuit Court Clerk Dorothy Brown objected to the fact that these laws can give an untrained person the ability to become ‘investigator, judge, jury and executioner all in one’.”

      That’s about the size of it.

      • Xena says:

        Dorothy Brown is the elected Clerk of the Circuit Court of Cook County. She is a keeper of records (does an excellent job in that), but not LE neither a lawyer involved in litigation. IMO, her opinion of the law should not have been sought by reporters.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree, Xena – strange person to ask – but I still agree with her opinion.

  117. crazy1946 says:

    Jun, all the defense is doing is trying to stall and force a delay in the start of the trial. So far Judge Nelson has not caved into his efforts, and I hope she does not. This trial needs to start so the Martin family can begin the healing process, and so justice can be served upon the guilty party when/if convicted!

  118. dbj says:

    Professor on another note I have a question regarding jury selection that is to begin tomorrow. I have a quote from another site which is also following the trial, it is in reference to the anonymous doners and potential jurors.

    “And if they are still able to raise money, that should be a question suing voir die: whether any of the potential jurors contributed to the defense fund. Have they provide a list of donor names to the judge? I think they should and the judge can order it kept under seal, but the names need to be revealed.”

    Now I don’t know if anyone has asked this yet but could the prosecution ask whether the potential jurors ever donated to GZ and can they also require verification meaning a full accounting of what monies have been donated to him etc?

    • colin black says:

      Yes they can ask if they donated to gzlegal an more n likely will.
      The questioning concerning social media should be lengthy an thourgh by both sides.

      And any questions they answere ie blogging face book ect can an will be scrutinised.

      And if a potential jurour lies about there knowlage or lack about the case.

      They are out of there an may even find themselves in contept.

      Each an every jurour will be vetted an checked up the yazoo to see if they truth tell .

      Voire Dire.

      Or if they not truth tell like the defendant lie.

    • LeaNder says:

      Very good point, dbj, I wouldn’t have thought about that. Obviously important. Problem is that O’Mara always promised that the names will be kept secret. Maybe they will only ask for it. But your suggestion is really good.

  119. Jun says:

    It’s up to the judge but I agree that I feel she will grant the expert testimony

    The defense witnesses, one of whom is not even an audiologist, simply claimed the sample was not good enough to even be tested or get a determination, which IMO is a provable lie because Reich even at one point offered to play the sample and he would prove it to the court and defense that it is possible to get a reading from the sample

    Their attack on Owen will not phase either because my guess is that the looping of the sample twice simply means the same sample was analyzed twice and considering that, it said twice that it is not Fogen

    The 3 second claim is also fucking bullshit because there is less then 3 seconds when Trayvon yells “Get off” and I can hear that pretty damn clear and also tell that it’s a kid’s voice yelling that out

    You can also make phrases and words in less than 3 seconds and it can be made out

    For example if I recorded myself saying “Hi”… that would be way less than 3 seconds and you could tell I said “Hi” and if you knew me, you could prolly tell it was my voice

    Anyways it sounds like the defense wants a Daubert hearing and I think that would be okay and the experts can simply prove then and there that their methods are accurate by playing the samples and showing what they did and I believe the judge and the press will find the findings accurate

    • fauxmccoy says:

      jun — a daubert hearing is off the table because until july 1, florida is a ‘frye state’. i think it highly doubtful that when the law changing the state from frye to daubert will affect cases already in progress, but again, i am not a lawyer. frye/daubert is an either/or proposition, depending on what a particular state has chosen for their standards; no state offers both.

  120. ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws To Be Scrutinized For Racial Bias By Civil Rights Commission

    Read more:

    Trayvon Martin Case To Be Investigated By U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

    On Friday, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights began an investigation on whether or not the “Stand Your Ground” law around the country has a racial bias. After February 2012 when the laws received national attention after the murder of Trayvon Martin, authorities initially did not arrest suspect George Zimmerman for the crime due to the “stand your ground” law. The law allows defenders to ‘stand their ground’ and defend themselves without first retreating, allowing anyone to use deadly force in response to a threat.

    The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights approved the investigation by a 5-3 vote today in downtown Washington D.C. “This is something the commission has not done in decades — a full-blown field investigation of an issue with potential civil rights ramifications,” Said Michael Yaki, the democratic commissioner responsible for the initial push for an investigation. “We’re going to take our own cut at it, go down, dig through records at the district attorney, police level and other things, and start going through … to see whether or not, as some people suspect, that there is bias in the assertion or the denial of Stand Your Ground, depending on the race of the victim or the race of the person asserting the defense.”

  121. Trained Observer says:

    Arrogant fool missed his opportunity to head off to a country without extradition arrangements prior to being charged. Just don’t think he can pull it off now. Scrutiny too intense. And yesterday JN wasn’t into relaxing his call-in requirements.

    • crazy1946 says:

      He did not flee before he was charged because he did not think that daddy would let that happen! Don’t think for a moment he could not rabbit now, too close to too many places where he could use a boat, or private airplane to get out of the country.. And I suspect he would have plenty of help from his loyal supporters who think he is being unjustly persecuted…..

      • colin black says:

        He is no Ronnie Biggs no Run Bambi run

        Dolt wouldn’t survive five minutes on the lam

        Wolves would devour mim as a lamb

        Wheres he gonna go MEXICO?

      • cielo62 says:

        Crazy- sorry, but I think you’re crazy if you think GZ can run now. You better believe the bail bondsman has one million reasons to keep a security detail watching that tub of lard. He’s not going anywhere but prison.


    • Xena says:

      Arrogant fool missed his opportunity to head off to a country without extradition arrangements prior to being charged.

      GZ didn’t have money, and was also being monitored by FDLE. When he left Osterman’s, he set up his beg-site and ShelLIE paid for a passport. Evidently, he planned on skipping the country. Problem for him is that he did not receive much in donations until after his arrest.

      As we know per Judge Lester’s opinion revoking GZ’s first bond, and based on GZ and ShelLIE’s actions hiding the valid passport and the money, if not but for the GPS ankle bracelet, GZ would have fled with about $135,000 of other people’s money.

      • DruDo says:

        Someone refresh my memory, please. Why was fogen way up in the Jacksonville area when the warrant for his arrest was issued? He apparently was headed out of the state. Also, I seem to recall reports stating he had several guns in his vehicle at the time. Who advised him he’d better turn himself in? These are some of the “little” things that bug me when I can’t recall the details.

        • Xena says:


          Someone refresh my memory, please. Why was fogen way up in the Jacksonville area when the warrant for his arrest was issued? He apparently was headed out of the state.

          GZ drove into Florida after leaving Maryland. He first met with attorney Baez and after that meeting, drove to Jacksonville FDLE thinking he was meeting with SA Corey about providing him with protection.

          Also, I seem to recall reports stating he had several guns in his vehicle at the time.

          GZ attempted to purchase 3 guns, but the seller reported him and did not sell him any guns. Osterman loaned GZ a gun and he had an additional, or several clips, along with a holster, a knife, laptop, and flash drive in the rental car.

        • fauxmccoy says:


          jacksonville is the location of angela corey’s office. zimmerman was heading there to speak with her office. his phone calls had been rejected, he’d turned his back on the first two clowns who were representing him and decided to go speak with corey in person.

          when corey stated in her presser that the defendant had ‘turned himself in’ she was being kind. the actual fact is that he showed up at her office, unannounced, to attempt to smooth things over as he had been able to in the past. what he did not know when he showed up was that the capeas for his arrest had already been issued, just not announced. he walked in there expecting to ‘fix’ things, not at all realizing that he’d be putting himself in a ‘fix’. at least LE did not have to invest much time/energy tracking him down.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Xena, he could have borrowed airfare from his pal Osterman who “would die for him” … but you are right. FDLE scrutiny was heavy . Any visions on flight were no more than a flight of fancy.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer.

          Xena, he could have borrowed airfare from his pal Osterman who “would die for him” …

          Based on the Credit Union statement, GZ borrowed $3,500 from his parents. IIRC, $1,000 of it was transferred into ShelLIE’s account, and she spent $135 of that at the USPS, over $200 at a beauty supply store, and several dollars on ITunes and at restaurants. The balance was in GZ’s account. He used that for gas and food purchased on his way through Maryland back to Florida.

          In the week previous to that, Serino called GZ twice about coming in for more questioning. GZ agreed to meet at FDLE in Florida, but that was, (IIRC) the last week of March. Then, he started calling to speak with Corey.

      • Trained Observer says:

        The arrogance of Fogen thinking he could just stop in for a meet with Angela Corey.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer.

          The arrogance of Fogen thinking he could just stop in for a meet with Angela Corey.

          Well, Papa Zim dropped in for a meet with investigators and asked that they make it all go away — even suggested holding a press conference announcing GZ’s innocence. It comes as no surprise that O’Mara and West would argue with Judge Nelson after she has rendered a decision — GZ no doubt requires that.

      • towerflower says:

        DruDo, Z had permission at the time to leave the state and it was said he was living in a mobile home in Maryland. The State always knew where he was at.

        When he was arrested he had a knife and one handgun with several clips full of ammo in the car. He got the gun from his buddy Osterman.

      • DruDo says:

        Thanks to all who answered my questions. It’s hard to keep track of all fogen’s nutty behavior…there’s so much!

      • Malisha says:

        Where in Maryland?
        What for in Maryland?
        With whom in Maryland?

        • Xena says:

          Cambridge, MD. Don’t know who. Looks like he applied for a job as a cop in Maryland also, so he must have some ties there with a friend.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        You do remember the code name “Heaven” in the jailhouse calls. I’ve forgotten the name of the town in Maryland, but it’s on the bank records in one of the early discovery dumps.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides.

          You do remember the code name “Heaven” in the jailhouse calls.

          Oh yes, and Papa Zim’s dad is suppose to have lived in St. Cloud, MN.

          I’ve forgotten the name of the town in Maryland, but it’s on the bank records in one of the early discovery dumps.

          It was Cambridge.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides- having grown up in Maryland, I can attest many places there are heavenly.


  122. lsimon3321 says:

    George’s attentive and happiness at these Frye hearings is suspect. Too bad it can’t be used as evidence. My thinking is that if it was you shrieking and you wanted everyone to believe it was most likely you, and your future depended upon it, you would not be pleased that none of the experts could or would conclusively determine it was you but actually said that in all probability, it was not. He seems to think that means the tapes will not be used b/c the experts could not, through tried and true methods, determine who it was yelling for help. That sick bastard: He probably screamed also just to get this result and for the cowardly neighbors sitting indoors and watching.

  123. crazy1946 says:

    Has anyone started a pool yet about what day of the trial that Fogen will disappear and make his run for freedom? Well perhaps run is too much, perhaps shimmy would be more accurate, or maybe waddle?

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Welcome back good buddy. I can see the escape now – sky-lifted by helicopter … but the ropes lifting the escapee are only stressed to carry 350 lbs,


      George plunges earthward …

      Results: the largest sinkhole in Seminole County history, surpassing the Windemere Sinkhole, 350 ft. wide and 50 ft. deep.

      Junior would be SO jealous, as George would be the one making the “impact.”

      George is vaporized …

  124. crazy1946 says:

    Is my calendar wrong, or did I lose a day? Is this Saturday? 🙂

  125. Trained Observer says:

    With jury selection set to start hours away, and with Judge Debra Nelson making it clear that SHE will decide on the preliminary questions to ask prospective jurors, here’s an oldie but goldie on JN from the OS archives:

  126. PYorck says:

    As far as I can tell, and I watched far too much of the Frye hearing, no expert heard anything that supports the defense account.

    So far the debate is between incriminating and ‘too close to call’. It is all damage limitation for the defense and it will be very hard for them to get anything useful out of this. Even if they convince a jury that the expert opinions are inconclusive it still likely that the jury will remember the general tendency and notice that it makes a lot of sense when combined with things like the screams stopping after the shot.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree. Even with the sound bite sample being too small, it’s powerful enough combined with other evidence.

  127. elcymoo says:

    Just check out all the misinformation and lies in this article in the Philadelphia Inquirer today. The author is a former prosecutor, now practicing as a defense attorney, I believe, but in my opinion, he’s a disgrace to the legal profession and/or a hired shill for GZ’s defense team.

    Hysteria Narrative:


    • BillT says:

      this is my point about the experts……the author has “credentials” yet he could not get any of the FACTS even remotely close to accurate………

    • Trained Observer says:

      elcymoo — Talk about bassakwards. How did this guy get through high school, much less law school? No wonder my friends are so misinformed …

      • elcymoo says:

        TO, Mark O’Mara and Don West made it, so IQ, integrity and respect for the facts and the rules of law apparently aren’t required.

      • Malisha says:

        Many many many MANY lawyers are both clueless and conscience-free. Which is why we have the system we have. Many of the MOST clueless and conscience-free ascend to the Bench and that’s why we continue to have the system we have.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ elcymoo. This article smells like junior and/or pappa’s doings.

      There’s two things in this world I despise, that’s liars and fly s, the more I hear from fogen and his hate group, the more I love fly s.

      Such liars.

  128. Shari says:


  129. Professor, have any member of the media (cable or network), has talked about any of the DNA reports? I mean, the fact that they’re none of GZ’s DNA under TM’s fingernails or none of TM’s DNA on GZ’s gun?

    • Shari says:

      I’m not Prof. but I would say, No. The media does not care about DNA or the fact that there is NO evidence to substantiate Fogen’s tale of being beaten within an inch of his life. Modern media is very lazy and they want to be spoon fed a story. They will not investigate or look for the truth.

  130. renahv says:


    Based on terminology thats quoted from SZ, ie george shot another kid, & george shot somebody else, & assuming that Trayvon is the only person gz has ever murdered, to me it suggests that gz expected a different person when he targeted poor Trayvon. IMO it sounds like a case of mistaken identity.

    Several other members here also suggest (to me at least) that gz “got the wrong guy”.

    So question: If in fact this was the actual scenario, why wasnt he charged with murder 1? What was the evidence missing that instead brought murder 2?

    HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, of course, what could that missing evidence have been?

    Thanks in advance!

    • renahv says:

      To correct: Several posters here also SEEM to be suggesting…

      its not that theyve actually said this to me….

      You know, this would fit right in with gz’s being tipped off, AND the theory that the other guys at the stop n rob deliberately delayed Trayvon for a few minutes…

      please excuse typos, structure, etc — still typing blind on this dang phone, ggrrr.

      And lastly: i hope this isnt too off-topic, & apologies if so. I just cant help asking; its been driving me nuts the past few days!!

      • renahv says:

        … also fits with words from Trayvon, ie “I dont know ’em!”… & could be part of the reason that the killer frisked him right afterwards…

      • willisnewton says:

        Whatever it is that you are wondering about, the trial begins on Monday.

        I can’t really follow what you are on about but it’s true that GZ seems to have conflated stories from 2/2 and 2/26 concerning a window-peeper by Frank Taafe’s house in the construction of his false narrative. In other words, things that he said happened on 2/2 seem to reappear in his tale about what happened on 2/26, the night of the killing. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that GZ thought he was going to catch the person who was spotted on 2/2, and that added to his excitement.

        GZ mistook Trayvon for a criminal plain and simple. he says as much to the NEN call taker. He MUST be on drugs, he’s one of the types that “always gets away” etc. What else is important to note here?

        It sounds as though you want to excuse the guy for making a mistake in identifying the teen. He did make a mistake but it’s inexcusable in my opinion.

      • Rachael says:

        willis they have what might be a pic of osterman at a bank nearby and some have speculated that he tipped gz off becausevthey didn’t say tell shellie he shot someone, they said tell her he shot someone ELSE. So the question was what was meant by someone else? Did that mean he has shot another person (as in he shot somenoe before and now has shot someone else) or he shot someone else as in someone other than who he was “supposed” to. It is an old conspiracy theory.

      • colin black says:

        Excuse me but at wich point did reality shift
        An utterences from foggagge about alleged suss BHLACK MALES smokeing outside F Taffes home.

        And according to foggagge as don’t forget he has the power to read black peoples thoughts an intentions

        An this alleged smokeing man was trying to potry the image that he was in fact the legal owner of the home thathis good good friend F Daft always left unlocked an unsecured as you do dureing a crime wave.

        So I ask again at wich point did we fall down the rabbit hole an give any creadance to foggagges weird an outrageous utterances my wifes a mess.

        No friggin wonder living with an habitual fantasist murdering raceist afro Peruvian walter mittiyish retard with no concept of cause an effect.

        Because you were born TRAYVON is dead Because you wanted to play Bruce Willlis TRAYVON Is dead.

        Because the State of Florida gave you the right to not only buy a deadly weapon

        But carry it about every where you go TRAYVON is dead.

        Because you are a MURDERER TRAYVON IS DEAD.

        An I never got the memo saying that anything that frigging asshole who tried to get away.

        But didn’t get away.


        An made sure this was one asshole who wouldn’t get awy.


        That he was UP TO NO GOOD.

        An given even the slightest of opertunitys we would be saying


        But an ankle bracelet and lieing to the court an a potted plant impersonation.

        Put that plan down the pan.

        Hey its almost MONDAY In the UK half an hour to D DAY

        Tick tock.


      • PiranhaMom says:

        @renahv –

        I am one of the posters here who asked if the statement by Shellie (and I’m paraphrasing, here) “George shot another guy” meant that GZ shot an ADDITIONAL person from someone he had shot earlier in his past, OR if it means he shot a DIFFERENT guy than one he intended to shoot that night, as in “SOME OTHER guy.”

        What was Zimmerman’s intent that night? Was he planning an execution (premeditated – Murder 1) or did his rage escalate because his quarry, Trayvon, whom he profiled, tracked down and captured, insisted he was innocent – and Zimmerman realized he would be arrested for assault on a juvenile – so he killed him to prevent the truth from coming out? (Depraved – Murder 2)

        In any case. if the capias claimed Murder 1, it would have had to be submitted to the Grand Jury in the County for indictment.

        Would you choose a Grand Jury in Sanford at that time?

        Hell, no!

        By the time the arrest was made the cops had plenty of evidence for Murder 2, with a minimum 25 year sentence to a maximum of life. That could successfully put away Zimmerman for a long, long time. Smart move by Angela Corey!

        But, like you, I would like o know what “another guy” meant.

        Perhaps Shellie will tell us why she said what she said, from the witness stand …

    • Malisha says:

      Perhaps only Osterman and Shellie know whom “else” Fogen meant to shoot when he accidentally got Trayvon Martin instead.

      • Trained Observer says:


      • renahv says:

        Holy shit WILLISNEWTON— No way!! Wow Im sorry if i came off that way!

        All i meant, short version, is i think theres alot we dont know yet and i bet we’ll be surprised. Im just trying to fit some pieces that are flying around lose.

        If it does turn out to be a case of mistaken identity, thats EVEN WORSE.

        Think Ill wait for my laptop before i post again– while trying to parse my words due to not being able to see what it is Im typing, Im obviously not making myself clear!

        So… yeah. Thanks for pointing that out.

        • Shari says:

          I just noticed your question about 1rst degree was rhetorical. Oops, you can ignore my response I guess.

      • renahv says:


        I hope thats clear enough now? (rhetorical, no answer needed)

        • Shari says:

          I agree with you, I believe he committed First Degree Murder. Why no charge of 1rst degree? I guess Murder 2 is what AC felt could be proven in court. We’re not lawyers so there may be other reasons. Wasn’t Al Capone tried and convicted of tax evasion charges? I don’t mind Fogen being sent away after a conviction of 2nd degree, as long as he is in prison away from civilized society. Afterwards I hope the news media will apologize to the family of Trayvon and give him the same respect given to ALL other crime victims in this country.

      • BillT says:

        the words he used when on the phone with police on 2/2/2012 and the night he murdered Trayvon are simply too identical to have not been scripted…..this shows forethought clearly, as he had already worked out his story for when he “had” to shoot someone….including telling the story BEFORE the shooting on the NEN….he describes the situation almost exactly the same in both cases.

      • Malisha says:

        Murder-2 rather than Murder-1 for many reasons.

        ONE: Corey knew that she did not have to present this to a grand jury to get Murder-2 whereas if she wanted Murder-1 she would HAVE to present to a grand jury. If the Sanford grand jury was racist enough in the early days of this, before all the evidence dumps, they would have rendered a “no bill” and made the whole thing (in the words of Robert Zimmerman Sr.) “go away.”

        TWO: Intent is difficult to prove when there is no history of the shooter having KNOWN the victim.

        THREE: Murder-1 carries the death penalty in Florida and that would make it a much more racially charged case.

        FOUR: Murder-1 would have been a public slap in the face to the entire SPD and to Wolfinger’s office as well. The kind of political move that Corey would not take.

        That’s just my two cents’ worth at a half-cent per idea. :mrgreen:

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Malisha –

          Your “two cents worth” as to why this case is Murder 2 instead of Murder 1 is worth a million bucks! Hope everybody read that.


      • Jun says:

        I feel it is premeditated IMO but I think it’s difficult to prove intent

      • Nellie Nell says:

        And he’ll never be paroled because he will never take responsibility for murdering a kid for no reason! He can stay there for the rest of his life which is where he need to be!

    • no, i get what your trying to say.
      in the beginning i thought he really thought he was saving the community from a criminal! but his reaction to serino telling him exactly who he killed made me realize he’s a filthy coldblooded killer w.o remorse!

      once i saw his affect afterwards i believe he did profile Trayvon out of bigotry mixed with all kinds of other personal problems he has. i think it was premeditated because:
      *he went outside that night in *work boots*
      *with a 9mm locked and loaded,
      *that giant flashlight,
      *that rain jacket,
      *was recorded on CCV at the clubhouse some minutes *before he called NEN on Trayvon,
      *where he’s seen creeping around on foot shinning his *non-working* yet working fine giant flashlight inside the clubhouse…etc.

      those are just the few examples that show me he was out on patrol with a gun like he’s a freakin sheriff!! and that means he lied about everything from start to today!

      • Dave says:

        Interesting that you mention the work boots. The killer had a white collar office job and lived in a condo. what kind of “work” does he need them for? Kickng asses?

        BTW that’s not what I would call a “giant” flashlight. It’s only about 6″ long but heavy and extremely bright (around 100 lumens IIRC) and is designed to be used as an impact weapon as well as a light.

      • tonydphotog says:

        It just happens to be a tactical flashlight, which is the type police use.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s just my two cents’ worth at a half-cent per idea.

        Love it. Your two cents are always priceless.

      • Dave says:

        GZ’s flashlight is identical to the 160 lumen model in the following video:

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Thanks Dave,

        I was looking for a video about his flashlight a while ago, but since I had no idea about the brand name, I couldn’t find it.

        Based on this photo from the defense, I think it is the larger one.

      • Dave says:

        Amsterdam, you are right. It is the 220 lumen light.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Sadly, it was not worth all that he was willingly doing. He is also not worth all the lying and tricks that MOM and company are doing – he is worthless (as he called his brother) which is why the family had not bothered to connect with him since they found out he molested his cousin (probably sister too). That family has some serious issue.

    • PYorck says:

      Personally I think it is not unlikely that he commited murder 1 but “short term” murder 1. By that I mean that he didn’t set out to kill that evening originally, but at some point during the confrontation he noticed that he was mistaken and he had crossed a line so that he would come out of that looking really bad. If Trayvon insisted on not being a criminal then he had to die before the police arrived.

      The problem is that that would be really tough to prove unless he confessed to someone or he implodes on the stand.

      • Rachael says:

        I agree. I don’t think that was his intent but it got out of hand.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Rachael –
          @PYorck –

          Re: “I don’t think that was his intent but it got out of hand.”

          And when he saw he misjudged his capability of getting this “suspect” to yield to him, and that he would not be a hero in the eyes of the police, but the laughingstock of the neighborhood instead (and be prosecuted for assaulting a minor) HE SHOT THE KID AND ROBBED HIM OF HIS LIFE rather than face the consequences.

          Killing Trayvon Martin was “the cover up” of the original crime – stalking and assaulting Trayvon.

          Don’t give this despicable narcissistic criminal an iota of your “understanding.” I know you are not giving him any sympathy but don’t give him any understanding, either.

          He went out of his way to effect this vendetta against an unarmed, innocent kid.

      • Shari says:

        Yeah I don’t think he woke up that morning and followed a schedule which ended with murdering a child. But premeditation as we all have learned can occur minutes before the murder.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Shari –

          Fogen did not lose his head, panic, and shoot.

          He had time to protect his dominant left hand from gunfire, center the muzzle precisely where it would blow Trayvon’s heart apart, and fire.

          That’s plenty of time to reflect, “Should I take this kid’s life?”

          He had time to make his decision, and he did: “Naaah, killing him is a better deal for me.”

          • Shari says:

            I think I am agreeing with you. He even said he did not fear Trayvon and he knew Trayvon wasn’t armed. Yes, he had time to aim and avoid harming himself. As I said I DO believe he committed Murder 1. I am not AC/BDLR. I am not a lawyer. They have seen all of the evidence. I’ll try to have faith that Murder 2 is what they could prove in court. I have watched enough trials and Crime TV to know that sometimes it’s not about the whole truth of a matter, it’s about what evidence you have and what you can prove.

            They may also want to avoid a Jeff Ashton situation. He said before the trial that there was a ton of evidence the public didn’t see. Well when the trial ended we realized the public HAD seen all the evidence. I do hope and believe there is a lot more in this case. We haven’t seen Fogen’s text messages and there witnesses that we haven’t seen.

            Casey Anthony is free. I believe she killed her own daughter. I’m not sure she is a threat to anyone else. Fogen has this superiority complex/itchy trigger finger/thirsts for power/authority. He has a sense of entitlement where he think it’s okay to bother other citizens and perform his own brand of police work. He was doing all this UNCHECKED, in my opinion with this implicit permission of the local police. He IS a danger to my sons and many other innocent Americans simply minding their own business. He NEEDS to be found guilty and sent away for the safety of society at large. If he is found not guilty it would be a terrible tragedy/injustice. I will accept Murder 2 even though I will always believe he was determined to find and detain Trayvon.

  131. RobertSF says:

    Since the defense’s expert witnesses all claimed that no conclusion could be drawn from the 911 tape, I wonder if what the defense is actually doing is trying to discredit the 911 tape itself in order to have the judge rule it irrelevant and thus inadmissible.

    If I were the defense, perhaps I wouldn’t want that tape in evidence at all, since no matter what experts tell the jury, I would fear the jury would still hold common sense over theory, and believe that the screaming voice is the victim’s and not the defendant’s.

    What are the chances that the judge would rule the 911 tape irrelevant and thus inadmissible?

    • aussiekay says:

      The 911 tape cannot be ruled inadmissible. It does not make any difference what is on it, it is an official police recording of the 911 call they got about the shooting, and that is admissible. End of story.

      What people hear or think they hear on it is another matter. Evidence can’t be ruled inadmissible just because the possible contents doesn’t suit the defence. What next? they should rule forensics “irrelevant” because the blood samples were so small?

      Even without screams etc it is quite normal to play their own 911 call to witnesses, to ask them “just then at that point what were you seeing” or “why are you saying something different now” and so on.

      “Irrelevant” is something that has nothing to do with the case, like what the victim did 6 months ago. The 911 calls about it are relevant.

    • Jun says:

      The 911 call is not irrelevant to what happened that night so it would never get ruled as that

      The defense are trying to argue against the expert’s opinions, not their methods

      The judge and the press heard the tape and what the experts had to say and my guess is the judge finds their forensics accurate and will let the testimony in

      The 911 tape goes in regardless

    • LeaNder says:

      SF, the question pops up occasionally. But Robert, I don’t think they ever wanted to get the tape out. They are very aware by now that all their supporters think it is obviously Fogen. Think about that, that was a free test in perception of the American audience.

      Jeralyn lately wrote that after having heard now Trayvon’s voice she is even more convinced that it could never have been Trayvon screaming. There you go. 😉

    • LeaNder says:

      Bloody foreigner, maybe “having now heard” would be better. 😉

  132. Nef05 says:

    As much as I hate to even give credence to anything a fogen supporter might say, I am giving some thought to a comment posted by one of them. In essence it states that the defense wanted a Frye Hearing in order to depose (through the process of cross examination) the prosecution’s witnesses at no expense to themselves. Considering their attempt to make the judge order Owen to allow himself to be deposed at some arbitrary rate they thought fair, I’m wondering if this may have some actual depth to it.

    We know they want to keep the experts from testifying, but they had to know from their own experts, that Owen and Reich would pass the Frye Test (as the professor so eloquently points out). So, was this just an exercise in futility or did the defense accomplish one of their goals, by being able to depose the prosecution’s witnesses at the expense of the court and prosecution (Florida taxpayers, actually). Did O’Mara manage to find a way to have the taxpayers pay for part of fogen’s defense without claiming indigency and dissolving the “defense” fund?

    • willisnewton says:

      The cost would have been minimal compared to the amount of money they collected, but I agree their questioning at times seemed more like that of a deposition than of a Frye hearing.

    • tharealkeisha says:

      No they just are not ready for trial that is why they immediately filed a continuance afterwards.

      • ladystclaire says:

        They would have been ready, if they had used their time wisely instead of mugging before every camera heading in their direction. they did that along with communicating with INBRED RACIST.

        I don’t blame Judge Nelson for denying their motion to continue. this woman sees right through their game playing and, she is not having any of it in her court room.

      • LeaNder says:

        I suspect much of this is preparation for a post trail appeal.

    • no, I believe that zimmerlover was 100% correct! that just saved zippy from the 3k deposition fee they whined about. they don’t have money for that kinda stuff when they have to pay 10k a month for zimmy’s living expenses! omar is a scumbucket and these kinds of scams have and will be going on throughout this case. why should they behave like professional, ethical, responsible members of the bar now?

      • Nef05 says:

        Great point, there is no reason to believe they would “behave like professional, ethical, responsible members of the bar now”. I need to make that a cornerstone of any comment I make about them.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      nef — that was my first thought as well. i have no doubt that the defense used the ruse of the frye hearing to depose the prosecution’s experts that they were unwilling to spend cash on deposing. the frye hearing could have been a relatively simple, focused questioning on the methodologies used. since there are only three basic methods, used alone or in some combination, that was all that was relevant to establishing credentials. we all know that defense examination and cross examination went far afield and consumed far more time than was necessary. they were looking for inside info on the cheap, i have no doubt.

      • Nef05 says:

        It worked, too. Just like the motions dump O’Mara did, right before Memorial Day weekend to smear Trayvon. I’m so far beyond disgust at their tactics, I don’t even have the words to express it.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          nef — well at least you are in good company with your disgust … wo we’ve got that going for us.

  133. pork que says:

    Read this article:

    DNA Report does NOT support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin caused his injuries

    • Good read….TY 🙂

    • RobertSF says:

      I’ve read a few of Zimmerman’s supporters claiming that this is an “absence of evidence” kind of thing. In other words, while the presence of Zimmerman’s DNA on Martin’s hands would indicate that Martin hit Zimmerman, the absence of such DNA doesn’t prove Martin didn’t hit Zimmerman.

      Is there any legal truth to that?

      • I know what your asking and I can’t state this in the legal way you’re looking for but this is how I look at it. and someone here will say it the way you want it i’m sure…

        it’s more like an absence of evidence to support zimmy’s lies. the absence of pretty important corroboration of serious accusations! wouldn’t we expect to see tons of DNA on Trayvon’s hands if gz’s story is true?
        to me this is 100% proof of a big fat LIE!
        and I think a juror could actually use this as an absolute disqualifier of gz’s entire story! if you can’t believe such an important detail, something that gz says caused his fear of imminent death, than what can you believe is the reason he shot Trayvon??

        Imagine trying to explain how NO BLOOD transferred to someone’s hands when he used his hands to beat the shit outa someone.
        It’s just like the absence of physical evidence that gz had his head bashed on the concrete. Omara can flap that 1 single (shopped) pic all he wants, but it doesn’t prove anything. If he doesn’t have scull fractures what was the sidewalk made out of? marshmallows? cotton balls? he doesn’t even have road rash type injuries on his stupid head! he has 2 (two) small cuts that are not consistent with smacking a head on the sidewalk a dozen times. it looks more like a poke with a stick or something sharp. it looks like it’s scratched with a branch maybe, or the corner of something he banged his own head into. It looks like the scratches he has on the forehead too that seem linear- straight side to side or up and down. It doesn’t look like a punch from a blunt fist!
        Where are the bruises and lumps we expect from a punch in the head? where’s the fat lips?!

        GZ’s injuries just do NOT corroborate his lies! None of the evidence does. it’s all just his story of words.

      • ladystclaire says:

        No matter what those morons say, there is no way that Fogen’s DNA would not have been present on Trayvon, especially since his hands would have been in “DIRECT” contact with Fogen’s bodily fluids.

        And for these people to think other wise, it only accentuates just how dumb and IGNORANT. they continue to show the rest of the world, just how IGNORANT some people in this country can really be.

      • parrot says:

        “…while the presence of Zimmerman’s DNA on Martin’s hands would indicate that Martin hit Zimmerman, the absence of such DNA doesn’t prove Martin didn’t hit Zimmerman.”

        Sometimes, I don’t know what to say when I read things like this.

        GZ’s version of events is diametrically opposite of what the forensic evidence shows.

        To judge whether he is telling the truth, you have to listen carefully to what he says happened. It is of utmost importance!

        GZ INDICTS himself because the lack of DNA evidence on Trayvon Martin proves that his story is fatally flawed. No reasonable, informed juror would believe it.

        The kind of violent contact GZ describes would INVARIABLY leave an exchange of DNA from both actors. It is impossible for there not to be an exchange of DNA given what HE says happened.

        GZ said:

        1. TM PUT ALL HIS WEIGHT ON GZ’s FACE to smother him covering his nose and mouth. (Where is the DNA from saliva/blood/skin cells on TM’s hands? Since GZ’s nose was supposedly broken and bloody, there would have been enough blood on TM hands to be visible to the naked eye, and it would have been tested. Unfortunately, GZ/s hands were not tested. He was allowed to wash his hands at the police station.)

        2. TM PUMMELED GZ WITH HIS FISTS DOZENS OF TIMES. (Again, where’s the DNA transfer from these actions? Where are the hand injuries that TM would incur? For that matter, where are the injuries GZ would incur in that scenario?)

        3. TM GRABBED GZ’s HEAD AND BANGED IT on the sidewalk over and over until GZ’s head felt like it was going to explode. Since GZ was almost bald, TM would have to grab onto Z’s ears and/or dig into some part of GZ’s head to get the grip needed to do this. (Where’s the DNA transfer from these actions? Why wasn’t there skin cells under TM’s nails when he dug in to get a firm grip?)

        This is why I rarely visit certain sites. They contribute NOTHING to the search for the truth.

      • Jun says:

        Most Fogen gang members are demented wackos and a danger to society to be perfectly honest

        They work on the caliber that Trayvon is guilty until proven innocent by their standards and everything about Fogen, science and physics and common sense does not apply at all

        Obviously the fact that there is zero DNA transfer on Trayvon’s hands, arms, sleeves, and cuffs of both shirts, clearly indicates he did not attack Fogen in any manner

        Fogen’s superficial injuries are staged by himself I believe

        Fogen was the only party “redhanded” in that he was caught and seen redhanded and his hands were literally covered in blood which shows he was the only party to do any sort of attacking at all

        Lastly, the kid had every right to try to defend himself although there is no forensic evidence that says it happened and witness 6 recanted his story, I am guessing, because he did not want to go to prison and the jig was up

        The SYG clearly states that if you have a reasonable fear of death or imminent great bodily harm and you are not committing a crime and have every right to where you are and you did not instigate the altercation, you can defend yourself

        A moronic wacko stranger named Fogen, targeting and stalking you while armed with a gun and a car, and angrily pursuing and chasing you and then confronting you, gives you every right to clock him

        I dont know about you but I cant listen to a kid scream and plead for his life then have wacko Fogen say “There shall be…” and then kill the kid as he tells Fogen to “get off” and “stop” and act the way the Fogen gang members act

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I strongly believe that if Trayvon had to grab the killer by gripping his head to bash it, we would certainly see DNA on his hands. With a natural urge to keep from getting injuries, the killer would have tightened his neck muscles which mean that Travon’s grip would have certainly slipped a few times causing scratching on the killer, hence the DNA under his nails.

        I also strongly believe that if the killer was punched in the face so hard that his nose were broken, blood would have gushed all over the place so when Trayvon punched him up to 30 times, that blood would have transferred to his hands and clothing. The killer would also have blood pouring from his nose and running onto his shirt, jacket, jeans and shoes even.

        Furthermore, with having blood in his eyes and all over his face, when Trayvon would have been smothering him, that blood would have transferred to his hands.

        It is impossible to touch blood and not have it transfer. The photo that the office had taken at the scene before the EMT arrived doesn’t even show all this blood that Zimmerman describes. It totally contradicts what he has said. The EMT guy also lied that the killers head was 45% covered in blood and he did not even have any contact with the killer. This is how you know that Zimmerman was told to explain how things went down. Trouble is, none of what he states supports the evidence.

        Trayvon was polite and more mature when he asked why Zimmerman was following him and instead of acting like an adult Watch Captain (that he was not trained for), he decided to pull his pistol on a kid that then began screaming for help. Zimmerman got scared because he thought that he captured a criminal (because Trayvon had to be a criminal walking in that damn rain, how dare him?). Zimmerman then more than likely became scared and knew he’d be in trouble on patrol with his pistol and so he had to silence his victim. There had already been one fellow escorted out of the HOA meeting for complaining about Zimmerman’s aggressive and threatening behavior while on patrol.

        When Sabrina said that she did not think that he set out to kill Trayvon that night and that she thought that it escalated, I completely understood and agreed with her. Not sure why Zimmerman decided to chase after this one and can only believe what his buddy Taaffe said, “That George was fed up” even with the crimes that were happening in is obsessive mind.

        I would much rather see him cuffed up after every hearing and during the trial, but seeing him cuffed after the conviction will be much sweeter!

    • yeah, thank you! i’m reading it right now. and half of twitter population too!LOl

    • renahv says:


      … or how about: he wiped the bloody bag on the killer’s face, nose, head, etc?!

  134. Proff, Yes you did say the state won’t be relying much on the expert’s opinions about the screams, and the jury won’t have a hard time figuring out who screamed.
    And obviously you’re correct again since the state isn’t jumping all over these defense witnesses like the defense is!

    Doesn’t It seem like the state has some real serious evidence they aren’t mentioning? because it looks to me like BDLR and co have been relatively relaxed these past few days. to me that means they have bigger fish to fry when trial starts! feels like we haven’t seen a thing compared to what the state has on gz– I hope it’s huge!!!

    Did you see On Xena’s blog were she found a pic of blood stain on Jon’s garage door that the crime scene techs took pics of. WOW!! what in the world could that come from other than gz? and why is it there?? and of course that leads to the question: what was gz doing for those minutes before placed in cuffs?

    • willisnewton says:

      If that wide angle photo of Jon/W13’s garage door showed a blood stain, where are the close-up pictures of it?

      Seems a bit of a stretch to me to call it that. Maybe I’m missing something however. Feel free to enlighten me.

      The prosecution has every reason to shield its trial strategy from the defense (and hence, the public) before trial begins. Their “confidence” is either a bluff or it isn’t, and we won’t know for certain until they have presented their case. But if I had to guess, I think they may have some things from GZ’s phone that will surprise the defense – as in, deleted text messages or calls that support a “tip-off.” But I’m just speculating.

      Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.

      We’re about to find out a lot. Just be patient for a few more days.

      • cielo62 says:

        Nobody has confirmed YET what made that stain. I’m waiting for verification of it.

      • willisnewton says:

        yes no one knows what that stain is. And lacking a close up photo as evidence, we are likely never to know.

        If it were part of the prosecution’s evidence I think we might have seen discovery materials related to it entered into evidence already. Instead it’s a mystery and not one likely to be solved at trial. Just my opinion.

      • The initial investigation had no interest in gathering evidence against GZ. What is there is obvious but if they didn’t drug test him, they had no intention of getting this evidence either. Somebody took a picture and they decided to ignore it.

      • @Leroy, yes that’s exactly what happened!
        You don’t get a blood test of an admitted killer, but you do check the victim?
        Then don’t bother waiting for any forensics results, just have the COP go on national TV and tell ppl that they have no reason to believe there’s a crime here even though you have a dead 17y.o. that didn’t make it home from the 7/11?

        wow! and that’s why all the media brought the crime into the light!

      • pat deadder says:

        Willis Doesn’t the defense have fogens phone records as well and didn’t both sides agree to have them sealed until trial..I’m in information overload here.Do I remember correctly the defense said they were too predudicial to release.IDK

    • aussie says:

      Oops this is first I’ve heard of blood on the garage door.


      Jon went out of his place through the garage and ran around the corner. Blood on the door is most likely transfer from HIM when he went back. The blood could be off GZ or off Trayvon (though he never said he touched either). Jon DID go back inside for a plastic bag, some vaseline and his first aid kit, when the police asked for plastic to seal the hole to be able to do CPR.

      There is always a simple explanation and it nearly always is the real one.

      What GZ was doing was witnessed all the way through — walked around with hands to head, walked up to near T and looked into distance, met and got photographed by Jon while making a phone call, went back to the scene, put his hands up and got cuffed. No way and no reason and no time for him to go around the corner into RVC and leave bloody handprints on Jon’s garage door.


      Let’s leave the conspiracies and flights of fancy to the other side, that’s all the poor bastards have.

      • so are you saying that gz went back to flip over Trayvon with his gun in his hand, and that’s when the smith walked up?

        how can gz make a phone call- while sitting on the ground, when he supposedly was cuffed and directly placed in the back seat with legs out in the cop car?

        I’m very confused about what exactly did happen once he shot Tray. Gz said 2 different stories.. 1. he had his gun out and 2, he had his gun in waist already…

        and now that you mention the trips to get plastic bags, that seems to make sense.. but damn, that’s a lot of blood to just transfer passing by!? It even looks like it’s been smeared. from the pic..what did jon do, did he take a bloody bag and wipe it across the door??

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Shannoninmiami. don’t forget about that same migrating gun, was also on the ground per Fogen’s own pie hole. this rat’s ass needs to be put away for life.

        He murdered that child and now he is trying to lie his way out of being punished for his actions.

        What ever the prosecution has on this POS, I so hope those at the tree slum look like the F’ing IDIOTS, IMBECILES AND MORONS THAT THEY TRULY ARE. forgive my caps but, I am so sick of how this people see the same evidence that we see, and yet they choose to support this LUMP OF NOTHING! they know just as well as we do, that he is as guilty as all get out but, they are basing their ignorance of supporting this murderer because, of the victims race and nothing more. smdh

      • FactsFirst says:

        IIRC, the witness who went through his garage looking for a flashlight is indeed a important piece of this puzzle… I believe this witness is a NW block leader who jon is apart of the murder of Trayvon and I’m willing to bet it’ll all come out in the wash/court….

      • Nef05 says:

        What GZ was doing was witnessed all the way through — walked around with hands to head, walked up to near T and looked into distance, met and got photographed by Jon while making a phone call, went back to the scene, put his hands up and got cuffed. No way and no reason and no time for him to go around the corner into RVC and leave bloody handprints on Jon’s garage door.


        While it’s certainly questionable whether it’s blood or not, and what you’ve stated (above) is fact – the thought behind it is that the “stain” happened before the altercation. That it might be evidence that fogen was bleeding before he encountered Trayvon and that it was physical evidence supporting the “went down RVC and cut off Trayvon from the South” theory.

        While I certainly don’t want to indulge in conspiracies, I will admit to being flat-out nosy. I want to know why the crime scene tech thought it was important to document this, and why no one else thought it was important enough to follow up on.

      • Malisha says:

        I think at LEAST the first five reports filed were half made up just to look like there was no crime committed and to give the appearance that the SPD had done all it should have done and come to the valid conclusion that Fogen killed in self-defense. You won’t find Timothy Smith writing, “I advised the suspect that he should claim self-defense and I let him make some phone calls to shore up his defenses and get the fix in place before I drove him down to the station house where we all got together and figured out what to say and write.” You find him writing, “His back was wet” and “he was calling for help” and all sorts of stuff that he did not personally observe. He’s just one out of many; their project was, very very obviously (although perhaps the feds will pretend “nobody knows what happened”) to exonerate Fogen so there would not be a case. All they had to do was to convince the family of the dead thug to “shut up and take it.” We must be grateful to the Fulton-Martins that they did NOT do that.

      • LeaNder says:

        Shannon, I read the book you recommended or alerted to in a link yesterday. Not a bad start, but it feels to me one by the Frederick Leatherman would be much more interesting, considering the larger aspect of an important American debate.

        What I was slightly puzzled about, and these passages i have to reread carefully, did John come forward before the discovery was released. I think he did so early but did media find out who he was by researching addresses/house owners or did they get a tip from the police? or by whom. What exact channel was it. Was it Fox, you know the images showing him entering his front door.

        Now on to Jon, as I understand the difference. I think he took the photo before Smith was on the scene. Sorry if I misread what you wrote, but you seem to assume he did that later. And strictly that makes no sense to me, considering the photo. There seems to have been quite a bit of chaos on the crime scene, but not quite as much as that.

    • Tzar says:

      so that pic was on axiomnesia, 2 days ago but now it is gone or at least I can’t find it

    • towerflower says:

      What thread is the photo under, I am trying to see the pic and haven’t found it. Thanks.

  135. Ezz-Thetic says:

    O’Mara has to know this is a waste of time, doesn’t he?

  136. ZCBest says:

    Yay! #2

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