Friday, June 7, 2013
Good evening:
The Frye hearing is developing much as I expected it would, although I am surprised by how far afield the testimony has wandered.
The scope of the hearing should be confined to determining whether the methodologies used by the experts are generally accepted by forensic audiologists. Dr. Nakasone, Tom Owen and Dr. Reich agreed that they are and that resolves the Frye inquiry.
The defense presented evidence questioning the accuracy of the results due to the very short (3-second recording) length of time in which the death shriek is not competing with other sounds. However, that argument and the rest of the defense arguments affect the weight that should be given to the results rather than the admissibility of the evidence.
Therefore, we basically watched a full dress rehearsal of the defense case challenging the accuracy of the opinions expressed by Tom Owen and Dr. Reich.
They agreed that the defendant did not utter the death shriek and indeed the circumstantial evidence independently confirms their opinions.
I confess that I had a difficult time hearing what the experts were saying because the audio was fuzzy and cutting in and out.
West’s monotone and stubborn nitpicking instead of focusing on the general acceptance issue, which is the purpose of the Frye hearing was quite annoying.
I think the defense committed a potentially serious tactical error by asking for a Frye hearing this close to trial because they have little or no chance to win and the hearing creates an opportunity for the State to remind everyone that their experts have excluded the defendant as the source of the death shriek.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
He pays for the gym then stops and starts paying again, I wonder if that lines up with the 18,000 he got from that law suit?
I’m pretty sure he took the classes and did the work at the gym, after all he did put in an application and he would certainly want this on his resume.
New post up:
Expert opinions about the death shriek are admissible at trial
Mr. Maintai used Dr. Doddington to point out that disagreement between experts is a good thing, advances the science. And Doddington agreed that there is never 100% certainty, there is always probability.
Dr.. Doddington emphasized that the best method for identifying a speaker, was using a listener, and the best listener was one familiar with the voice of the speaker.
If screams can’t be evaluated, this doesn’st seem to discount the value of a mother who has raised her child through his lifetime. There may be listener bias, but that could work both ways, as much denial of belief, even more than wanting the speaker to be her child in pain and fear, especially in a situation Trayvon was in, to scream for his life as he knew he was going to die.
accidentally edited out sentence before the comment—> (Might work for the defendant if the judge agrees to a continuation of trial until next year , or stays the whole thing until technologies are up to defense standards)
This comment was about Dr. Doddington’s speculation that in a year or so, he’d do some legitimate experiments using past HASR trials, and that we should ‘stay tuned’ for that.
😉
Dr. George Doddington a professional electrical engineer specializing in audio evaluations of the ‘technologies’, not evaluations of forensic samples or evaluations of the specific brand name ‘tools’.
(Might work for the defendant if the judge agrees to a continuation of trial until next year , or stays the whole thing until technologies are up to defense standards)
Doddington says under cross:
– all the biometric systems work very well
– computers have advanced tremendously in the last 30 years
– HASR trials so far show that the biometric systems are superior
– HASR (Human Assisted Speech Recognition) needs more work and he’s hoping to plan some legitimate experiments for speaker recognition, if he can get the funding, and that could happen in a year or so– “stay tuned.”
– that a free software download from the internet, was one of the two methodologies he used to evaluate this case (hey isn’t that an automatic biometric system?)
– one of the methodologies, admittedly outside of the field of electrical engineering of this audio specialist who never uses forensic samples, was to ‘listen’ to the NEN call, out of curiosity he said.
(Mr. Maintain pointed out that Doddington had criticised Reichs for being influenced by audio suggestibility while he himself listened to the 911 call and drew conclusions that were themselves, subject to ‘bias’, something that he had never done before in his career, and that’s not part of what he does (never uses forensic samples, out of his field)
– one highlight of the cross, was Dr. Doddington’s support for the idea that it is the listener, especially the listener familiar with a speaker’s voice, who is best able to identify a speaker. An expert opinion, as Mantai pointed out, was held by Doddington 30 years ago when he last testified in court and still holds today as the best way to identify a speaker.
– another point that was nicely dealt with, was Dr. Doddington’s comments on direct, that claimed ‘speaker bias’ was a factor in the state’s witness, Dr. Reich’s speech recognition work.
Mr. Mantai showed that Doddington himself was subject to speaker bias when he listened to the 911 call drew conclusions from direct subjective listening from a forensic sample. Doddington emphasized that his work never makes use of forensic samples, he is not do forensic speaker or speech evaluations, out of his fiield of expertise.
(sorry for editing rearrangments mistakes)
LMAO
Reich is familiar with Fogen and Trayvon’s voice so there goes that idiot’s bullshit
Justice for Trayvon
Beutiful video it got me a little choke up,that song say it all. JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON MARTIN!!!!!
I really can’t describe in words how the song makes me feel. Sad just isn’t the right word.
I loved that sign: “The Family of Rosa Parks Demands Justice for Trayvon Martin.”
Very moving.
To be fair, he gave his reasons as self-defence, weight loss and training for law enforcement career. He was 255 lbs on the day he signed up.
Juniors’ phone records: the numbers are all blacked out. But there was no call on Feb 26 from about 1 pm until 7.55, followed by another at 7.59 and one at 8 pm ALL OUTGOING. The 8 pm one went on for 44 minutes. At 9.30 there was an INCOMING (“routed”, ie forwarded) which also went on for about 40 minutes, followed by 3 very very short outgoing calls and one apparently wrong number/engaged.
Having so many forwarded calls looks like Junior has a land line phone, too. Which they don’t seem to have gotten the records for. He may have received a call on that, setting off the flurry of outgoings So the interest is not in who rang him, but who he rang. .
Listed in the inventory with the discovery is records of Shellie’s phone, but then they are not actually included. Only Robert Jr’s are there. There is a note saying Shellie’s records were “previously provided” but we’ve not seen them disclosed.
What gives?
The only thing I can think of, Willis, is that the prosecution released Shellie’s phone records to the defense team earlier, but they haven’t been cleared for release by the court. Her records and GZ’s ought to make for some enlightening trial discussions.
I have not checked GZ legal lately, neither the state’s release site. But looking for a different video of the defense’s experts, I ended up on Diwatman’s blog.
Sorry for not remembering who pointed out Dr. Phil’s invitation and embarrassment of the guy that makes money with fight videos. That was perfect intuition really. Watch it to the end, and you’ll find out why. I don’t understand exactly what happened. And it seems too that there was no real reason to interfere. They did not have to protect the guy. He wasn’t ever in real danger, as Trayvon was.
Now here is The bike video
Good connections? Or is it linked by now in the latest discovery releases on 18th circuit or gzlegal?
LeaNder, what is the “state’s release site” that you’re referring to, please? I’ve also heard O’Mara say that the state posts evidence on some website. I’ve never seen such a website, but sure would like to! Thanks.
Groans: Eighteen Juridical Circuit, that’s what I referred to however badly.
They are always slightly later. I have never seen video’s there but gzlegal has started to put some online. I noticed not long ago. There is a different database but it does not link to the files. And I only have one link. 😉
Thanks again, LeaNder!
Thanks for posting the link to the bike video, LeaNder. It confirmed what I always suspected; there really wasn’t any bloody fistfight going on. In fact, the two men were mostly pushing, shoving and wrestling over control of the bike. Trayvon’s been criticized for not calling 911, but I don’t think all that many people would have – GZ excepted, of course.
elcymoo,
one of the guys seems to get into his car after. The one that asks them if they intend to make money from the video. I wouldn’t have understood without the help by someone here, what exactly this is about.
This video may in fact describe a situation I always dreamed of ages ago. In other words I would have loved to be able to get hold of the thieves of my diverse stolen bicycles. By now I have given up, and simply buy myself a new and slightly better one so I do not miss the one gone. 😉 it works. But initially it always makes you very, very furious. Especially if you urgently need it and there are time constraints.
But maybe I am wrong. Gonna watch it again. Mainly to hear Trayvon’s voice.
I have to admit it reminds me of DeeDee’s statement to BDLR’s question, how was Trayvon: funny.
@elcymoo –
Like you, this is my first view of this video.
I was astounded. Have we become a nation of couch potato pantywaists that THIS could be considered “violence?”
The kids likely filmed it because here were two grown men, pushing, shoving and grappling over a bicycle – with no skill whatsoever.
The boys probably thought it was a hoot!
And to think how O’Mara described this!
The Zimmerman legal defense team are disgusssssting liars! No doubt, pantywaists also.
While I don’t think it’s particularly “nice” that Trayvon videoed this scene, I have two sons myself and they were both immature at the same age and certainly would have done the same thing and found this “fight” funny too. It isn’t the sort of altercation that you’d notify 911 about, either, especially in a major metropolitan area where police are busy with far more serious things.
My husband is a law abiding taxpaying American citizen. He isn’t a criminal and we mind our own business. He watches clips of fights on websites like Break and YouTube and he usually finds them VERY funny. I don’t know what’s so funny but I never thought it was proof of criminality. Everyone has a smartphone now, they are dirt cheap for the most part. When something happens the first thing people do is begin recording instead of intervening.
I never thought that the info on Trayvon’s phone was relevant so I never looked into it. Are you saying that people were outraged that he FILMED a dispute over a bike? Trayvon was an American kid, doing an American/Western thing. No big deal to me.
It disturbs me how much Zidiots question the behavior and judgement of a juvenile but refuse to hold the ADULT Fogen accountable for his criminal behavior, past and present.
Naw. GZ’da shot dem phuckin’ punks. Woulda had to, you know. Otherwise he’da been in diapers.
I have always wondered why the Fogen gang is still pushing the black panther danger theory and Fogen wears the vest
I have stated it before but anyways
If someone really wanted to off him, they’d honestly just shoot Fogen in the head or the throat or his legs and it’s done
Just being real
The vest aint gonna stop bullets to those areas
and lastly, the State Of Florida already has his balls in a vice grip, so there is really no need for anyone to do anything to him
Just saying I think his story is a lie regarding that because of the aforementioned reasons as that it could easily be done and has not been done and there is no motive to do so
Fogen epitomizes the word “Loser” why would anyone even consider going to prison or the death penalty over his pathetic lying ass.
And both of the New Black Panthers have jobs and families and all they wanted was an arrest, there ya go….Mission Accomplished.
Since Fogen has denied that Hal Uhrig and Craig Sonner represented him, they should subpoena THEIR phone records too. See if Wolfinger and Lee called them.
That’s actually not a bad idea… you should contact them to do that as I would not doubt there is something fishy with those two guys…
Him and his sister want to know who will play them in the movie?
HIM will be played by Tracy Morgan and him’s sister will be played by Jorge Garcia. Or vice versa.
Steve Buscemi for Robbie The Racist
He’s good at playing creeps and I am sure he is up for the challenge of playing a creep that happens to be gay (Simon Tam played a gay gangster in a Hong Kong movie)
Rosie O Donnell should do Gracie because Rosie has zero personality and pizzazz and is a jackass, which is what my guess is what Gracie is like
I doubt any movie will be made, and for the record, only self serving rat bastards talk like he does. Besides, he’s a sideshow….anyone can walk over to a camera, grab a mic. and lie like hell.
He’s like the dudes from Jerry Springer to be honest
They go on and say the most hateful disrespectful crap and also lie just to rile up the audience and then they try to get the audience back with “apologies” or in Robbie’s case, claiming he is coming out as gay
Personally, I think he’s a creep
@Malisha — LOL HIM will be played …
(I’d drag the guy who mastered the art of smarm as Eddie Haskell on Leave It Beaver out of mothballs.)
Actually, I agree with Racer. Doubt any movie or even a TV special will be made of this totally avoidable tragedy.
It could make “World’s Most Stupid Criminals” I’m betting if Scott Peterson, O. J. Simpson, Casey Anthony and many others didn’t have movies made, who the hell is Fogen and why would he rate.
They made this into a circus…..maybe the SPD coverup investigation will make news, but it won’t be a movie.
Manson was behind movie stars and celebrities being murdered. Serpico was an honest NYC cop who was shot to silence him.
Fogen is a moronic wacko and nothing more. Trayvon was an unknown minor who just wanted to get home.
So scene 1 in such a movie will portray what….7+ years of college classes…..his 315th out of 317 HS standing ??
Manson used The Beatles as a reason….Fogen used God as an alibi.
Fogen playing “Defender of the Hood” is a laugh. Manson using “Helter Skelter” was a serious issue.
Both are racists……and Fogen is a joke. His family, his life and SheLie…….all a joke.
Note to racist bastards : The world will come down on you, better wise up.
There’s a distinct possibility that they’ll get several training films out of this, “what not to do as a Neighborhood Watch person and why!” , and for the legal profession a myriad of examples of bad lawyering and the consequences. I’m sure Omar’s performance will shake every years students to their roots. Since, until they view Omar in action, they would not believe work this bad was possible. Omar is a legendary failure!
Justice for Trayvon
Hoodies up!!!
|||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||
Plus, to be politically in correct yet candid, people don’t want to watch loser porkers on screen.
A documentary or police / civilian training film is about all they’ll get out of this. The only character needed is Foggen and he’ll be played by “someone from the audience”.
Click to access states_17_discovery_redacted_exhibits_redacted.pdf
Above is complete State’s 17 Discovery. It contains, among others,
a. Information that GZ listed “SELF DEFENSE” as one of his main reason for seeking the services of the ‘Most Equipped Fight Gym’ In The GZ started his Self Defense training in 2010;
b. The letter of GZ’s rejection by the Police,
c. partially redacted telephone records of robbert zimmerman Junior on the 26th of February 2012, etc.
@SearchingMind –
Thanks ever so much for the dox, Searcher.
Looks like Junior was plenty busy on the phone after 8:00 p.m. on February 26 last year.
I don’t see the incoming call that brought him the news, but I expect Gracie got in touch with him somehow. Likely a landline involved.
e-mail involved?
They were in the same geographical place involved?
@Malisha –
How could I have overlooked e-mail???? Mais oui!
Merci, autre fois!
The document says that a copy of Shellie Zimmerman’s phone records for 2/26/12 had been ‘previously provided’. Does that mean it was included in a previous discovery, or just provided to the defense team? I don’t recall seeing it.
Also, no mention of GZ’s phone records for that date…
Hmmm… I don’t see the NEN call listed, besides this seems to be sprint, didn’t gz have a T-mobile phone on a prepaid scheme?
I don’t see any change listed so Trayvon appears to have had exact change.
From the maps of the area, if those 3 guys were intending to meet Trayvon at the 711, they obviously had to follow him there from home. Rene Stutzman said that Ransberg (the black one) lived in that cul-de-sac, I guess it’s the one we see outside the back gate. So far I haven’t been able to track down where the white Ransberg(burg) lived. We know that Burgess lived at 2500 RVC.
Oh and gz was 255 lbs when he signed up for the fight training in 2010. He paid for and completed the course(s).
it must not be a very good gym because martial arts tend to instill some values and honor and bravery
There is nothing of value, honor, or bravery in Fogen’s actions
Uh oh, mass shooting in Santa Monica, just heard on the news.
I think the gym is a mill, the contract reads like it is.
You may be mistaken…. these are ROBERT Z’s phone records, not George’s.
We have yet to see GZ’s phone records.
As for the “three stooges” I’ve not followed that at all; it seems entirely superfluos to me. What is known and what has been reported and where? Please explain what you know as though explaining to someone who has no previous knowledge…. I’ve been ignoring all this as it rolled out.
A good place to start is here
Up near the top you’ll notice links into the matter. But, briefly:
Way back on Bcc:list.com, when the story was that gz had met Trayvon coming in near Taaffe’s place. I looked at the lay of the land and the elements that would have been operating and realized it would have been very unlikely that gz would have seen Trayvon, even if he had come that way. Of course later on we learned that Trayvon had been in the mail kiosk by 6:54pm so that put the final nail in the coffin of those claims.
Now I’ve looked at the elements of Trayvon’s walk to 711 and back, and I’ve noted that there too are a wide variety of possibilities and variations, that make it almost impossible to predict Trayvon’s return to RATL, less which of the many routes he will take to get there. Then too there’s the element of the rain. Had it not started raining hard when it did, obviously Trayvon might very well not have stopped at the mail kiosk. If he didn’t, and he was only 2 minutes from home, and about one minute from the nearest cut through, gz’s efforts, even supported by spotters, would have failed.
Then his only means of attack would have been to invade Trayvon’s house, probably by claiming he had seen Trayvon break in there. But we’d now be talking about how gz learned where Travyon lived, because the time and motion studies would clearly show that gz could not have seen where Trayvon went, despite his claims.
Note that when Trayvon leaves 711, instead of walking immediately east, he waits there for 30 seconds and that’s when the car carrying the 3 stooges appears. Now they come into the store with Trayvon waiting outside and they’re covering their faces from the stores cameras. Why? They’re not pulling a hold up, so why would they want to not be identified? Could it be that they knew of some plan involving Trayvon? Could they have been working in consort with someone to track him? Could they have known to expect that whatever might occur later on, might be serious enough that these cctv’s would be checked?
One thing is certain. Trayvon was held up at the store for 5 minutes. The distance from his house when he ran to the mail kiosk was less than 3 minutes at the outside. Meaning that if he had not been held at 711 by the 3 stooges, he’d have made it safely home before gz could even leave his house.
The point being that with a trip this variable, and gz not actually leaving his house to go shopping, he’s on a mission that has only one target, and it’s a target that he has not yet seen. Unless you want to believe that multiple coincidences can line up and facilitate your plans, then you’ve got to realize that there was something more needed to make things work as they did.
Wait: On 2/26/2012 Burgess was not in any 7-11; he was in jail and has not been out since.
Of course, Burgess was arrested on 2/7/2012, but he was with three other people, two blacks and a white male, so with Burgess gone that leaves one white male and two blacks in the group. That’s exactly what we see at the 711, the two remaining black guys and the one white guy. So that’s what I was referring to. We know that the four of them were together when the stolen property was in their possession and all 4, it is said were taken to the police station where three of them were released.
I refer back to the 2/7/2012 arrest, because I have only the count to connect the guys at 711 with the group that Burgess was with. We don’t have either names or photos of anyone but Burgess and of course Ransberg(burg). But it seems such an amazing coincidence that 2 blacks and 1 white are at 711, and this is exactly the remainder of the group arrested and released on 2/7/2012.
Hope that clears up why I have to keep referring back to the original group.
Jun, I don’t think that can be blamed on the gym. They don’t do psych testing on their applicants. Some percentage of the students will become better for their training there and some percentage will become worse.
@Lonnie Starr
255 lbs… whoopie, so he can’t try the sympathy card and blame his present weight gain on his “unfair” arrest and trial which I was half expecting from MOM & Co.
@Lonnie,
Regarding your 2/10/12 comment:
One of those three teens at 7-11 wore clothing similar to Trayvon’s –that is, a light grey sweatshirt hoodie + tan pants, and he was also a black teen.
Could this be the “someone else” that Shellie referred to when she said, “He shot someone else?”
Sorry I have seen nothing at all that would point to such a possibility.
I know that you’re probably thinking that the whole thing about those 3 at the store is pulled from thin air, but it isn’t. It’s circumstantial and gossamer in it’s linkages, but made worthwhile to keep in mind, because, at the least, we have good reason to believe that there was more to that night than meets the eye.
I’ve taken a few tidbits of evidence that would otherwise seem inconsequential and fashioned them into a narrative supportive of my speculation. The hope is that there might be even more, seemingly inconsequential evidence that might come along or be discovered, that could tie in and/or make this theory more credible. But would otherwise be lost, simply because there is nothing to relate it to.
As it is, it would not take much more to elevate this theory to the level of being a working element of the case.
HOLY BLOODCLOT!
Reich is damn good
I been listening to the 911 scream tape and I know I hear Fogen’s creepy whispery pedo voice and he does indeed say “There shall be…”
I was listening closely on my smartphone
Damn, he’s good to catch that… I could not make out any words at first but I do hear Fogen saying something in his creepy voice
Fogen says it just before killing Trayvon… listen closely, Fogen does indeed say “There shall be…”
That the defense is trying to hard to promote these “imaginary” utterances shows me that they are indeed there and that many, many others can hear them. I can hear these but am uncertain what I’m hearing. I’m sure if I made hundreds of attempts I could probably deciper them, as I do transcription work at times and it often takes several passes on phone interviews to decipher all the spoken words and phrases.
Jun I can’t even believe he said anything like that b.c it’s so creepy! and to tell you the truth it’s kinda f’ed up, but because it sounds SOOO ridiculous it makes ppl doubt Reich’s whole testimony!
I havn’t heard ir yet, and I believe you & Reich but damn ppl are snarking about these things because it does sound crazy!! I want to try and listen better but the tape is so scary and heartbreaking and to think that scumbag was the last thing Trayvon was forced to see and hear it just kills me!
I hope Reich gets to play a cleaned up audio for the jury, I hope it comes out clear enough that the world can hear it too.
what do you think that pig was doing jun when he was saying that kinda shit?? in the beginning, before the dispatcher picked up the phone gz was saying all that other shit, I what is his deal???? I mean did you notice any talk like that on his jail house tapes? any weird preachy god talk on those??
I think Fogen was so caught up in his fantasy that he was involuntarily saying “These shall be” as a kind of incantation. “These shall be MY WAY” or “These shall be MINE” or “These shall be the way I SAY” or something like that. I knew a woman whose husband used to say “Go go go go go go go” just like that, seven in a row, while he had sex. He seemed unaware of the utterances. Then after about ten years of marriage her daughter (six years old) asked her what it meant when Daddy “gogogo’d” and she didn’t understand her daughter’s question so she asked for more detail. The child said that daddy would “push me in my private part and say go go go go go go go” but the child said she didn’t like it because she didn’t know what to do to “gogogo” and it made Daddy mad. The mom brought the kid into social services who guessed at the utterance. The husband, when denying he had molested the child, also denied that he EVER said “Go go go go go go go” when having sex.
I think Fogen was “transported” when he was killing his victim; I am sure he couldn’t feel his jacket slide up when he allegedly “shimmied” and I think he wouldn’t realize he made other utterances either. I don’t think they were under his voluntary control. That’s why I think the murder was probably pretty close to Murder-2 rather than actual “full-mind-intent” Murder-1.
my god malisha, that is absolutely terrifying, both of the stories!
Even though it’s hard to wrap my mind around the uttering of such odd words, i can’t deny the possibility. it’s just hard for a normal thinker to consider what a sick/deranged killer is thinking. we are here trying to make sense of nonsense. And that’s all i can think that makes sense to me.
I know for a fact that religious child molesters will use religion as a crutch. and because i believe his cousin, i believe he could think himself as righteous! i mean look what he said on hannity!
i’m not religious but i know too well how religion can over ride all common sense and intellect. even the brightest of ppl can lose their whole damn mind!
so you think this freak went kinda outta body when he was in the throws of his kill? that is just nauseating! and i hope to HIS GOD that he gets exactly what he gave back to himself! i hope his last moments of life are just as horrifying as the ones he gave Trayvon!
one thing tho, i have a feeling he’s accosted someone like this before.
he was so confident he wasn’t doing anything wrong. he wasn’t scared of ppl coming outside to stop him, in fact he had the nerve to tell them what to do! as if he’s the god damn sheriff! That behavior just goes back to what you’re thinking about his *trance-like* stage! he’s in another world! his own made up sick world!
we know he’s a violent little motherfucker, but only w.smaller/weaker ppl, we only see the one example of his drunk ass jumping on a cop -knowing that he wouldn’t actually get into a real brawl in that kind of situation.
i’ve been in a bar when a raid happened. ( it was Prince’s club down in south beach, and it was HUGE! at least 100 cops in all black ski masks and geared up)
i can imagine this was just a little college bar and maybe just a few cops prolly came just to keep the bar on it’s toes.. so i know gz was just putting on a show. If he had done that in a miami club he’d have been slammed on the ground and beaten by 10 cops in ski masks! and he wouldn’t have walked out on his own that’s for sure!
Well, here’s to tomorrow! Let’s hope they nail his ass!
I mean it in all seriousness and my bet is Reich will prove it at trial by playing the tape but listen after Jeremy gets terribly frightened
You hear Fogen’s creepy whisper voice and he does indeed say “There shall be…” and then you hear Trayvon say “stop” and then Fogen kills the kid and the screams abruptly stop
Reich is old school and he’s damn good because I did not hear that until recently and he caught that right away
I think Fogen’s a fucking creep
I think Trayvon was begging for his life and pleading for mercy then Fogen says “There shall be…. My way” and then he kills the kid
So the end of the sentence must have been obscured by the loud gun report.
With trial proceedings beginning tomorrow, this will be my last post.
Professor, I thank you for all of your great articles and for providing this site for Trayvon advocates.
And to all of you wonderful, goodhearted advocates…..you have done excellent research and analysis of the evidence! I congratulate you!!
@YAHTCS
So sad yahtcs. Why no more posts? Is the blog closing or if personal reasons you don’t have to say, but I will miss your comments for sure.
Thanks, gbrbsb.
The reason I am not going to post any more is that I (very personally) do not believe in posting comments during a trial. Just my little quirk.
In any case, my forte (mainly on the NBC) blog was organizing the released evidence and posting the evidence to counter “misstatements” by the other side.
I will miss all of you!
Oh, I understand. But I hope maybe when it’s over, and whatever the result, as much as I so want the prosecution to be successful I personally don’t think they have anything near a slam dunk rather a huge burden to prove BARD, you might come back and say hello to those still here.
So I’ll just say bye for now, and I will miss you too!
@yahtc. I am going to miss you. Thanks for your participation on blackbutterfly7 also.
Thanks to all of you for you nice comments.
I have decided to post to you Trayvon’s video of the two men scuffling over the bike. No one was hurt. And, Trayvon filming it
is no different than what news photographers do every day.
FORTUNATELY, Trayvon laughed and commented as he filmed.
This is fortunate because now I have absolutely NO doubt that it is Trayvon crying out for help the night of February 26, 2012.
Just listen, and you decide:
.
@YAHTC
As I listened to the kids laughing over how stupid those “grown ups” were to be scuffling over a bike – and doing so very ineptly – I could hear the teen voices.
For me also, YAHTC, it confirmed that the tragic death shriek was Trayvon’s last plea.
It hurts to know we lost such a wonderful young person, with such potential.
It hurts.
God only knows how his parents and brother survive …
Thanks for this, I have posted it over at whonoze’s blog too.
The voice is brilliant, sure the jury will also make the link.
gbrbsb says
X2 — i would love to hear your comments as the trial progresses and will miss them if they are gone.
i know that fred used these last two hearings as a ‘trial run’ so to speak of the live blogging he expects to continue throughout the trial. again, i would miss your commentary. this makes me sad 😦
Thanks for your thoughtful comments (laughs intended). Be blessed!
I admire your fortitude. I’m more like the Elvis type, prone to shooting my television (if I had one, and a gun, which I do not) and ranting to whomever will listen when I see injustice and stupidity flourishing.
Thanks for participating, and hope to see u on the flipside.
Well you can still post the evidence here! you don’t have to be a stranger.
I think I remember you doing something like that in the beginning/when you first started posting here
idk why, but it seems sad to me to hear you say bye for now. but I respect your practice. personally I got so Effed up by the casey Anthony verdict I couldn’t speak for 3 days. I don’t think that’s a healthy way for people like me, w/o being personally involved in that case, to react. so I plan on being less emotional in this one, if I can.. maybe I can focus on the racial/social advocacy things when i’m not watching the trial, so my mind is occupied on more than the outcome of this…
but it’s comforting to have found all you ppl that are passionate about the murder of this child, it helps to be in your company.
You will be missed! Hope you’ll check in from time to time.
I almost withdrew but I’m too addicted and have to see this conviction to the last loney slam of that jailhouse door.
I’m sorry to read that, as well. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, and will miss your perspective and insight. All the best!!!
Who is this guy with the white hair?
I think he’s “blue tie” the electrical engineer the defense tried to use to undo the prosecution experts’ reliability. NOT. or KNOT, as the case may be.
ROFL
They used an electrical engineer who looks like he’s a member of the KKK
LMAO
He actually ended up helping the prosecution more than the defense. In a way, he sort of turned on them, or at least he got along with Mantei better than OM.
His response might better have been, he has not done forensic evaluations– ever, not his field, doesn’t listen to audio, not what he does.
Nice job.
This witness does not do forensic sample evaluations, he has never done, (to quote him) “ever” in his career done forensic sample evaluations. He does not ever, until he got curious with the exception this case, listen to audio.
(though OS may disagree in their report of yesterday, they are confused)
Astrology and Numerology for Monday, June 10, 2013 Zimmerman
http://zimmermanverdict.com/2012/12/20/trial/
I took a look at his transiting chart. Fogen is in the midst of a Saturn return (conjunct within a 1degree 15′ orb ), in Scorpio, which falls in his natal 12th house (Karmic journeys, secret sorrows and self undoings). Small sample of Saturn in Scorp:
I note his medical report lists a “pre-existing” order for glucosamine chondroitin tb. Isn’t that for joint flexibility difficulties, like those that arise from arthritis?
In any case, I know I would NOT want to be going on trial for murder, in the midst of a Saturn return, in my natal 12th house. Well, I wouldn’t want to do it at anytime – but for sure not at that time. I could almost feel sorry for him… almost.
Thank You for your insight.
Although I know little about Astrology and the stars, I know George Michael Zimmerman upset the natural order of our universe by taking the life of an innocent child.
He’s got some bad mojo headed his way
LLMPapa: FABULOUS as usual!
But: “The fault lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
While listening to Bad Moon, a thought about glucosamine chondroitin use as hoping to prevent joint damage by using what is essentially classed as a food. Doesn’t mean he had joint damage from heavy wear or arthritis yet.
Ay2z – GZ was known to have a bad back. Hence his rage when someone cut the lock off of his special chair at work. Yeah, he kept it locked to his desk.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Saturn returns are never easy for anyone and Fogen has the Saturn return from hell. Self-created – what can I say?
Very cool, LLMPapa!
@LLMPapa
He absolutely upset the natural order of the universe by murdering Trayvon and all the bad mojo he gets is deserved. Thank you for including my post in one of your amazing videos. I am deeply honored.
Hoodies Up! J4TM
@TSTAS
Exactly! And with a 1degree (+/-) conjunction the energy is at peak, and will be there for a while. With Saturn (the cranky old granfather who teaches us our most difficult life lessons) transiting his 12 house of karma, sorrows and secrets – Things do not look “auspicious” for him.
Incidentally, it also affects Scorps and those with Scorp rising, to a lesser degree. I’m a Scorp, and it was just as this transit began that my mother became ill and had to go back into the hospital and then physical therapy and chemo/rad treatments. As her primary caregiver, I am dealing with hospitals, insurance, lawyers, rehabilitation facilities, chemo/rad treatments, maintaining her home and obligations, and keeping her spirits and strength up.
For sure, SHE has the harder battle to be fought, no doubt. Nevertheless, I am learning invaluable life lessons in having to deal with these issues that I may never have, and I might need them for myself or another family member one day. So, the lessons are never easy, but they can be valuable if you choose to learn from them.
Fogen never learned a hard lesson or how to be accountable in his whole miserable life. If he had, Trayvon wouldn’t be dead. It appears as though the lessons he ignored will not be ignored any longer. They are demanding to be learned – and he has no one to blame but himself.
I wish I knew as much about astrology as you do, Nef05. I’ve skimmed the surface of it for many years and understand some of the basics, but find some of it mind-boggling as much as enlightening.
Sounds like we have some things in common – my mother has also been dealing with cancer since 2010 – she’s finally in remission but still dealing with the aftereffects of chemo and the ongoing trials of aging. Her sheer determination to survive kept her going as much as anything else, I suspect. Most of us would probably feel we’d lived long enough in our early 80s to let go, but she’s been a real trooper throughout the ordeal.
God’s Plan vs God Sent
Thanks Tstas for posting Xena’s Part 3.
Take care, good night!
Sleep tight! Sweet Dreams!
How? Part 1
HOW? Part 2
Cardboard and Bullshit, Part Four – A Different Conclusion
(see also the same title, Parts 1-3 at LLMPapa’s channel)
http://voice4america.com/masadluffy/2013/05/31/trayvon-martin-case-to-be-investigated-by-u-s-commission-on-civil-rights.html#axzz2VgZHYPj6
I hope the link works. SYG Laws to face scrutiny. It’s about darned time!
Hope that’s good news, this time.
X3
@Woow, in answer to question #11 of your above comment, I have had a feeling all along that, someone actually did see the entire incident and, this has not been released by the state.
If you guys remember, there was someone who contacted LE about the events of that night but, they were holding their statement for my guess would be, for someone more honest than the SPD.
from the article:
“In a USA Today-Gallup poll, 51 percent of African Americans felt that Zimmerman was guilty, while 20 percent of whites felt otherwise. ”
Parse that grammar, please. Does this meant that 80% of whites feel “otherwise,” aka he’s guilty? I think the writer messed up here.
Probably the poll found that ONLY 20% of whites were certain of guilt pre-trial. While this is a big gap indeed, I’m not sure it reflects ONLY racism. Part of it is that it’s reflecting the upper-class trust in the court system and the racial minority’s distrust of the system.
Is America rasist? Heck, yes. Did 2 million people of ALL colors, creeds and religions sign petitions demanding justice in this case? Yes. I’m encouraged by that.
The article asks “will things get uglier before they get better?” I’m saying they are getting better already but the struggle continues, and each injustice must be met with the same resolve and defeated by tolerance, organization, a push for equal justice and love.
I know some white people who initially thought Zimmerman was justified; however, as they heard more information, they moved away from there original positions. Just from comments I read on other sites, I believe that many people are only listening to what supports their own positions. One commenter on abcnews.com said Zimmerman was a home owner and Trayvon had no right to be there. Many are willfully ignorant because they don’t want to process anything that won’t support how they feel.
@dianetrotter.
Willful liars is a better description. I read a comment where the person wrote that GZ said 3 times on the NEN call that Trayvon was circling his car. The person doesn’t realize how that convicts GZ. Anyone in a vehicle who has a person circle it even once, would be a fool to get out and follow the person after the person runs.
Diane — see my post below. Am confident that attitude change will occur once my friends soak up the facts.(They own income properties in several states, and when I laid out the news that not only was Fogen stiffing his landlord on back-owed rent but actually called the cops on her when she stopped by trying to collect ….. well, well, well, that got their attention. They were more inclined to listen to me on aspects of the actual murder, premeditated in my opinion.
I just posted on some other site where they were talking about the homeless video and had it all wrong. I noted that the last post to that site was after O’Mara tallked about the video, then they all stopped posting. The blog lead article is pro Trayvon, but the index displayed quite a few proZ articles. So, it appears that after Omar did the video thing his support actually got shuttered by it. He really made, those who pounced on it, look like rabid racist fools. A second beating they’ve taken after the school records came up empty.
The lies may be bringing in money, but they’re quickly knocked down and they’re pushing gz more firmly towards the jail.
Justice for Trayvon
Hoodies up!!!
|||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||
Unfortunately, the poll is probably accurate. Not because they’re racist, but because they’re not following the case. The only things they hear are from the media outlets, and we know they haven’t really been reporting the facts accurately.
tonydphotog:
Can’t begin to tell you how right you are. Was at dinner party last night with a couple from out of state who I’ve known for decades. (I’m often their autumn houseguest in the mountains.)
They are well educated, reasonably well informed people, but apparently what little they know about this particular case stems from FOX, CNN and the two Sentinels.
Fogen/Martin came up (by another party guest not via me) and the wife shocked my sandals off by mentioning Trayvon got what he deserved and there ought to be more guys like Fogen willing to take a stand for their communities. WHAT?
I went ballistic, finally calmed down, and later had a quiet talk with the husband, a one-time Marine who was at Iwo Jima. He’s still quite with it, and always willing to listen.
After laying out some facts, he admitted that I had changed his perspective. He simply hadn’t gotten a clear picture of the evidence on what had really happened. He and his wife had both believed Trayvon had been up to no good and had attacked Fogen … doing the head-bashing, etc.
and had been influenced by those phony photos of Trayvon floating around.
For what it’s worth, one of the other party guests mentioned that he always gets nervous when approached by anybody in a hoodie. My retort to him was that I get edgy when stuck at meetings near anybody wearing a pocket protector.
Meanwhile,now that this is really on their radar, my friends have agreed to tune into the trial, and we plan to discuss again when we’ve all had less wine.
What an uphill battle.
I’m sure this kind of thing is going on with many of us. People depend on the news media to objectively report news and they are not doing that. People have work/lives to attend to. Some of them don’t know about this website. Others only read the tittle of an article. So when they read a heading that says, “Dede lied, state case is falling a part…” They turn to supporting the killer. This criminal trial is NOT the first one followed by the national media BUT It’s probably the first in my adult life where the VICTIM was put on trial. The VICTIM’S life is NEVER rifled through. Then there is the investment in Fogens tale. Why would anyone believe him when he was the GREATEST MOTIVE TO LIE???
People don’t know the facts. One commenter said Fogen was doing his legitimate job as a security guard. Also they say Trayvon had no right to be there.
This case is an eye opener for sure. People who you know and love, you wonder how they can believe the most horrible things.
Trayvon Martin Case: ‘Trial of the Century’?
As the trial starts, experts talk about its potential effect on how we see race and justice in America.
http://www.theroot.com/views/trayvon-martin-case-trial-century?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Black+News
(The Root) — The Trayvon Martin case doesn’t involve a white-Bronco car chase, an NFL legend and a pretty blonde — just a black, unarmed teenage boy in a hoodie and a neighborhood-watch captain with a gun named George Zimmerman. But the second-degree-murder case against Zimmerman — who says he killed Trayvon in a gated community in Sanford, Fla., last February out of self-defense — has the potential to be just as meaningful as the O.J. Simpson trial when it comes to race and the justice system.
Charles Ogletree, director and founder of the Charles Hamilton Houston Institute for Race & Justice at Harvard Law School, told The Root that the “distinctive qualities” of the case — which centers around the issues of racial profiling, gun violence and self-defense laws — make it particularly relevant. “I will even go so far as to say that this will be the trial of the century that will say a lot about the court system of the 21st century,” he said.
Since Trayvon was shot to death on Feb. 26, 2012, advocates have rallied around his family and his cause — with support ranging from hoodie campaigns to gestures of solidarity on the House floor. For weeks, there was buzz about the nature of race in America and how violence against blacks — specifically young black males — must stop.
But not everyone feels the same way. Polls suggest just how much race has played a factor. In a USA Today-Gallup poll, 51 percent of African Americans felt that Zimmerman was guilty, while 20 percent of whites felt otherwise. It’s a case that has exposed the deep racial chasm that still exists in America. Will things get uglier before they get better?
Zimmerman’s family and legal team have pulled out all the stops to try to paint Trayvon as a malicious thug. From records of the teen’s text messages to pictures of Trayvon blowing smoke, the defense has tried to provide as much evidence as possible that Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self-defense.
According to the Los Angeles Times, Benjamin Crump — the attorney for the Martin family — said during a recent Miami prayer service that Zimmerman’s defense has made “a desperate attempt to try to play on people’s prejudices” by releasing cellphone pictures and texts from the teen. “It’s bad enough they had to lose their child,” he said. “It’s tragic [the Zimmerman defense] had to assassinate his character,” Crump said. At the same prayer service, Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, acknowledged that the family would “have to sit through a lot of negativity.”
Why leave out the 911 call in many case in the past
a person was found not guilty when they look at
what was left out.
“Racism is never about the facts, and Zimmerman’s media campaign, is not about the facts either.”
Spot on.
Exactly!
ay2z that video is stunning.So the only reason fogen’s mother married rzsr was because he is white.There is something fishy about that family.Why are they lacking in money.They both have good pensions from their jobs plus his service disability pension and their government pensions.I think they have been separated for a long time or something I just can’t put my finger on it.I guess the long and the short of it is who cares except they raised a person with a depraved mind..
Pat — Why are they lacking in money? The aren’t.
But they are greedy liars wanting to feed at the trough.
I forgot
15. It would be really interesting if he called someone at SPD and Osterman.
I’m guessing he called Mark Osterman as seen in the bloody head photo. He had reason both to call and to deny or omit/ obscure making the call.
Perhaps Osterman moved the truck for him and only later said Shellie was involved. We don’t know. We do know both persons aren’t telling the whole truth, and we do know the truck was moved but not why, or what was in it. (open liquor container or illegal prescription meds is my first guess. Other people i the truck is a theory I tend to doubt highly)
Perhaps Osterman has “flipped” and will testify against George. Time will tell. Certainly he could be at risk of being charged in secret indictment for either perjury or accessory after the fact or evidence-tampering. In any case he has to know his friend is likely to lose at trial and that his own job as Air Marshall is on the line. Even rats know when to leave a sinking ship, and he’s had some sort of a break with his relationship with George.
Wasn’t fogen’s name on his parent’s house in Florida at one time and they had it removed.
Pat, am not sure if his name was on their property ownership records. If so, it MAY have had to do with Florida’s homestead tax exemption.
If a home is homesteaded, there’s a cap on taxation, limited to going up no more than 3 percent per year. If the parents were still official residents of Virginia, their property would not have been eligible — unless Fogen was added as the official Florida only “homeowner.”
Again, I don’t know if Gladass and Pops tried to pull off this type of subterfuge with help for Fogen or not. But we do know what kind of people they are.
I wonder
1. what was found on Fogens Phone and will we ever know
2. when did Osterman arrive at the scene
3. who notified Wolfinger and when did he arrive
4. where was Taaffe and was he involved that night
5. Is there evidence the neighbors complained to the HOA about Fogen
6. Does SPD have a long record of NEN and 911 calls by Fogen regarding suspicious black men
8. Do you find it odd that Shelly was always the witness who saw the suspicious black person on Fogen’s calls to NEN
9. If Fogen had bee turned down (not sure by SPD or in Virginia) for the police academy, why were the cops letting him ride along with them on patrol.
10. It is evident Fogen is not up to par with the law so how could he criticize SPD and why would they try and protect him knowing he is a loose canon
11. I wonder of someone has come forward that actually saw what transpired
12. I saw a motion filed by the prosecution to prevent the defense from releasing information about the Martin’s and their family. Was MOM really that low down and dirty to do that.
12. I wonder if prosecution know that MOM is letting folks on a blog run his defense because after reading about the tree house on here, I ventured over there today and one of the questions MOM asked, was discussed by those folks before he asked the questions.
13. It is going to be really interesting when testimony begins since MOM was unsuccessful at having his witnesses testify incognito….. those boogers will have to do their dirt in the open..OOOWEEEE I do believe a monkey wrench just flew all up on their game plan.
14. Finally, I wonder how much that fool Joe Oliver was paid to quit his job to stump for his best friend and who was paying him? Also, Taaffe has been real quiet lately where did he go?
It’s all gonna come out at trial and we will all hear it
Excellent post, Woow.
re:
1. what was found on Fogens Phone and will we ever know
It’s likely we will know if he had communication right before the time he got into his car. It’s also likely he may have deleted the text but that it was recovered, or at least a record of who texted him was.
I’m as curious about a possible tip off as I am about who he was calling in the “bloody head” photo.
2. when did Osterman arrive at the scene
We don’t know but it seems to have been before he claims he was there, since the gates were guarded by cops soon after the killing. He’s admitted he spoke with George in his interview to the FDLE but shies away from this in his “book.” There’s a lot we may never know about here, but he could have coached GZ about the obvious self-defense talking points – things like the supposed verbal death threat are tailor-made bullshit, and of course the “i was in fear for my life when i shot.”
3. who notified Wolfinger and when did he arrive
We may never know this. Wolfinger may or may not have been there, and he may or may not have been corrupt, incompetent or racially motivated. To my knowledge there were never a credible outside investigation into his activities. He quietly announced he would not run for re-election and that may have been the “deal” that was struck, we probably won’t ever know. To me this is as big or bigger of an outrage as the murder itself, since Wolfinger was an elected official and is responsible to the people, yet eluded scrutiny, guilty or innocent. At least GZ will face trial. Wolfinger skated away. The Martin family wrote to the DoJ asking for a federal investigation into the actions of his office and of the SPD but never got a direct response. What they seemed to have gotten was political pressure that moved the florida governor to appoint Corey as special prosecutor, and for Wolfinger to step aside citing “the appearance of a conflict of interest” whatever that means, which is very unclear and remains so.
It’s possible Wolfinger just wanted a case he could easily win and was waiting for the SPD investigation to bear better fruit. They never got to hear from Dee Dee/W8 since the Martin family was losing confidence in the locals and took her info to the Feds and ABC news instead.
So was Wolfinger incompetent/ corrupt/ racially biased? We just don’t know. The fact that others in his same position are charging Murder 2 seems to say he was either corrupt, incompetent of racially biased but again in the absence of a credible outside investigation we will never know. He refused to speak with the pulitzer prize winning reporter from the New York Times which suggests to me that he has things to hide.
4. where was Taaffe and was he involved that night
I tend to think not, but he may have been a tip-off person who was assured that his text was deleted by GZ. Time will probably tell on ol’ Frank. It’s his “according to George” statement that I am curious about.
9. If Fogen had been turned down (not sure by SPD or in Virginia) for the police academy, why were the cops letting him ride along with them on patrol.
Because he was a wannabe cop and signed up for the program. They had no knowledge of his not getting a job in VA.
10. It is evident Fogen is not up to par with the law so how could he criticize SPD and why would they try and protect him knowing he is a loose canon
Anyone can open their mouth, it’s a free country. (unless you are black, unarmed and wearing a hoodie in the vicinity of GZ.)
11. I wonder of someone has come forward that actually saw what transpired
There is a rumor of a child witness that is still floating around. Some suspect this is a kid or two that was at W2’s house, and that W2 is shielding the child. If so, I understand. Sadly however this may be the reason that W2’s “two person foot chase” story got muddled later. I am hoping at trial this will get cleared up since she seems to be a possible star witness for the prosecution depending on what her position is at present and how well she can face cross-examination by the defense. This could be a high point of the trial or it could be nothing at all. Time will tell.
12. I saw a motion filed by the prosecution to prevent the defense from releasing information about the Martin’s and their family. Was MOM really that low down and dirty to do that.
dunno about this.
12. I wonder if prosecution know that MOM is letting folks on a blog run his defense because after reading about the tree house on here, I ventured over there today and one of the questions MOM asked, was discussed by those folks before he asked the questions.
yes, they know and have mentioned by name the conservative treehouse blog in open court. More curious to me is if the prosecution has followed the theories of BBC list blog as represented by Treeslaw/ whonoze’s video that outlines the clubhouse video’s timing being off and shows, when adjusted to align with the arrival of emergency vehicles that GZ trolled the mail kiosk and likely returned to face the mail kiosk from the first bend in TTL. This agrees with the map he drew (and quickly crossed out) and shows the likelihood of the car-to-pedestrian chase that I maintain is the starting point for GZ’s false narrative.
13. It is going to be really interesting when testimony begins since MOM was unsuccessful at having his witnesses testify incognito….. those boogers will have to do their dirt in the open..OOOWEEEE I do believe a monkey wrench just flew all up on their game plan.
I don’t put much stock in this. This was a move done for show, and it may have been for family members of GZ who are clearly ashamed of his actions and how it’s going to reflect on them. They barely tolerated him before all this. I suspect they simply don’t want their faces shown because they know their son is a liar and is going down.
14. Finally, I wonder how much that fool Joe Oliver was paid to quit his job to stump for his best friend and who was paying him?
Who cares? Wasn’t he a wanna be tv personality? I suspect he was reaching for a career boost. He failed, and I’m glad we don’t have to see him anymore.
Also, Taaffe has been real quiet lately where did he go?
He’s off drinking or drying out. Either way he’s wise to STFU.
thanks for posing this list. On to trial!
I don’t believe Joe Oliver quit his job to stump for Fogen; I don’t believe he was paid, either. He LOST his job and was looking for a way to get another one by appearing to be a big important foobah. It didn’t pan out for him because he’s such an ass.
Francis attended the hearings.
Yeppie. they know Fogen is a LIAR and, what’s even more cheering to me is the FACT that they now know HE’S A MURDERER AS WELL! you’ve got a point about them not wanting their faces shown in public, they are ashamed of him as well as what he did to an unarmed innocent kid.
They can play stupid all they want to, they are indeed ashamed of Fogen and, have been for years. what other reason was he sent away from his home state of Virginia? my guess is that, he committed a crime of some sort and, as usual papi Z got him out of it. after he was bailed out by his crooked lying father, he was sent packing to the state of Florida, living in the house they purchased for their retirement. IMO he did not leave Virginia because he wanted to, he was made to do so by his parents.
I wont say it in full but I cant think of any other word
Joe Oliver is a House ……. you can fill in the blank
Considering he is a House (bleep), he would have had to have a ulterior motive to do so, because going House (bleep) is one of the worst titles to have and own
He’s probably Robbie The Racist’s boyfriend and Robbie paid him to do all that crap
“He’s probably Robbie The Racist’s boyfriend and Robbie paid him to do all that crap”
With this group, anything is possible. Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver did state he and Fogen worked together and that’s how they met. He also stated how long ago and all that and he was lying through his teeth as Fogen did not work where he stated at that time.
Friend of Robbie the Racist….very possible.
I thought Oliver was a 12-step sponsor for Fogen, or something of that sort.
Video by Papa + Video by xy11xy = illuminate why George Zimmerman called police at all, the night of the 26th?
Review Papa’s “New Script Writer Needed’ and hear GZ alert police to Frank Taaffe’s place earlier in Feb 2013, then borrow 7 comments from this earlier NEN call and attribute them to his NEN call from the night of Feb 26th.
Why would GZ assume Trayvon was suspicious and then meld information from his earlier Taafee NEN call? No one knew where GZ saw Trayvon for the first time for sure, it may be one more ‘borrowed’ bullet point from the prior NEN call on another young black male. The location may have triggered the series of assumptions of suspicion and primed GZ to believe that the same young man now noticed him, his car, who this watchman was that called police the time prior, and that GZ had to follow through and not let this ‘fucking coon’ or ‘fucking punk’ get away. GZ explained the events of the night of the 26th to police, repeatedly springboarding from the earlier sighting at Taafee’s place.
(Further, Trayvon’s killer might have been worried that he’d been made by someone he assumed could be the same young black male from his earlier Taaffe ‘suspect’ , making the need to catch the bad guy, even more critical for personal ‘safety’ reasons, not waiting for police because “these assholes always get away”. If Shellie had been with GZ that night and knew of this suspect as possibly the same as before, that would surely escalate Fogen’s concern to act and not wait for police this time.)
Was the link or connection in this neighborhood watch captain’s mind, between the two NEN calls, enough to blur the line between the two young black males as he did blur the distinction and meld the communications of the two calls?
And watch xy11xy’s video posted early this year, in which the same question is asked, ‘why were police called at all?”
Does this video add to the understanding of the role of profiling Trayvon that night, and the state of mind GZ of linking his friend Taaffe’s house, with this new young black in his late teens, even though the information on the profile was different, and the communications in the calls, were different?
LLMPapa’s video New Script Writer Needed (blue screen with question mark) is linked upthread.
xy11xy’s video “George Zimmerman’s Profile” here:
Notice the idea of visiting the emotion of ‘anger’ on Trayvon coming from the mouth of GZ on the NEN call of the 26th used in xy’s video. But GZ was careful to say he had never seen Trayvon before, yet blended the other ‘facts’ of the two NEN call scenarios.
What an important video that you have posted, ay2z…….all of gz’s suspicions were unfounded.
Despite all of gz’s suspicions, Trayvon was simply an innocent teenage returning home from the store.
Once gz called the police dispatcher, it was in the hands of the police to discover that Trayvon was a guest in the community and to discover that gz’s suspicions were unfounded.
Gz interfered with the police investigation that he had asked NEN for the minute he exited his vehicle.
It was Trayvon’s ***RIGHT*** as an American Citizen to have the services of the police to check and discover that he okay and had a ***RIGHT*** to be walking where he was walking.
.
Your comments before posting xy11xy’s video are outstanding, ay2z!
Many good points and heartbreaking!
To me it’s long been obvious that GZ conflated aspects of the earlier window-peeper incident with his false narrative. I believe he did so because he was tipped off to the presence of Trayvon and responded with his gun and vehicle and cell phone, only spotting TM for the first time while the teen was at the mail kiosk.
From the mail kiosk it seems also clear that GZ was parked at the first corner of TTL facing the mail kiosk. This is corroborated by the clubhouse videos, and the map GZ drew for Singleton, as well as what Dee Dee told Crump about how TM was followed by a moving car just before he ran “from the back,” meaning into the back of the houses – the dog walk area. Dee Dee is clear about what she is describing but doesn’t know the significance of it, and later when BDLR questions her he doesn’t ask her specifically about this activity so she doesn’t describe it the same way. But I’m 100% sure it happened this way. There is no other explanation for how to match up the position of the two people with the events described on the NEN call. Both persons were SOMEWHERE when the following exchange took place: “He’s by the clubhouse now?” GZ: “yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
GZ’s lies, obfuscations and omissions as well as his contradictions in his statements to SPD all stem from the idea that he is acting to obscure the car-to-pedestrial chase that happened briefly down Twin Trees Lane. When he first started telling his false narrative, he omitted the actions and tried to skip ahead to “the good part” where he was the victim of an unprovoked attack. In point of fact, he HAD provoked the teen – he provoked him into running off the roadway in fear, and he may have provoked other actions when he closed a gap between them on foot. But keep in mind GZ tried to simplify the story to leave out the moment he drove his car behind TM, and he tried to leave out the fact that he was searching for the teen with his car that evening (IMO) and he KNEW what actions were exculpatory and which actions were not.
But since George knows he can’t start his tale the way it really happened, he has to invent a different beginning. Luckily for him (he thinks) he has his memory of the 2/2 incident of the window peeper to copy details from in order to sound plausible.
But unbeknownst to him, he’s created a major contradiction when he tells SIngleton (who keeps asking him to back up and tell earlier parts of the story in better detail, as he keeps trying to get to “the good part”) that he pulled over in the clubhouse parking lot after driving AHEAD of the teen who was supposedly by Taaffe’s. George admits he moved his car while speaking to the NEN call taker. But by placing the “first pass” of the teen here at the clubhouse parking lot, he’s started the clock ticking on the NEN call recording. Keep in mind it’s very very possible GZ felt the NEN call was NOT recorded. Otherwise he wouldn’t have taken such huge liberties with his description of what was on it. Note that not ONCE did GZ volunteer to the SPD investigators the concept that TM ran. He only speaks of it when prompted, and were it NOT for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known that TM ran at all.
Why lie about being in the clubhouse parking lot and the teen passing him here? What’s George hiding? He’s hiding a lot. He’s hiding the way he trolled the mail kiosk, as seen in the video. He’s hiding the (likely) tip off, and he’s hiding the car-to-pedestrian chase that happened after the teen walked brazenly past his vehicle, taking the most direct route to his home for the week.
These are the actions he felt he MUST lie about, and what formed the impetus for using the Taffe-prowler incident as a convenient basis for his false narrative.
I’m going to guess that GZ’s phone records will be part of his undoing. If he received a call or text shortly before he got in his car we’re going to learn about this at trial. Perhaps it was a deleted text that gave him the tip-off, and perhaps the authorities have recovered this.
@WillNewton,
Zimmerman tips us off to the only “reality” in his tale (which, actually, was a “pre-reality, or “the prequel,” in film biz).
in the car with Serino and the other detectives and he’s “re-creating” the 2/26event on-site.
The ONLYtime he speaks with assurance and conviction is when they arrive in front of Taaffe’s house. George then launches into his good deed earlier that month of calling the cops in on this asserted robbery. Very proud he correctly called he cops but too no actin imself; said with great self-satisfaction “let them handle it” like a proper Neighborhood Watchguy — without any sense of irony that he proved he can handle this correctly but chose the vigilante route just a few weeks later – resulting in a death!
He upped the ante. Just calling in a report did not satisfy Zimmerman’s personal need for drama – and the starring role..
You get no hero medal for just calling in a tip.
Nellie Nell says:
June 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Robert Jr Tweet: Robert Zimmerman Jr. @rzimmerrmanjr 27 May
Last night me & sister actually brainstormed who would play us in “the movie” today and 2moro ill tweet about how hard this is on my family!
Yeah, they think this is all a freaking game!!!
Reply
@
Pee Wee Hermans a shoo in for the part of junior .
An junior could play the part os sisterzimmerman or zimmermiss .
As we know foggagge claimed he thought he had missed..
Anyway junior in drag for the part of the Sister
An pee Wee Herman
Or if not available
Remember the MOVIE CABERT..?
Auf weidersane MINE HER AUFEARDESANE MINE HERR.
Lisa Minnelli SITTING IN THE CHAIR AN THAT camp WEE MAN WITH MONACLE ECT.
hE WOULD BE ALSO PERFECT TO CAST AS WEEZEEJUNIOR.
An the song also would fit perfect for the end of the trial
Aufwedersane mine her
BUT NOW ITS OVER.
These people don’t expect anything to happen. I really wonder what’s going on. I suspect they know about a way out that is coming for them because there has gotta be one brain between them that should know that this doesn’t look very good.
I’m not too sure Joonyah really cares one way or the other. He’s snaky-cunning enough to put himself first, and in doing so realize that there might be a TV movie, even if it comes from a J4TM supporter. His character probably wouldn’t have a large role. In fact, if it was me – I’d limit it to clips of shows he’s already done. Any actual actor, in his role wouldn’t do anything more than sit in the courtroom, no lines. I wouldn’t put it past his snaky self to try to find an agent to see if HE could play the role.
I mean, it’s all about him, right? He disgusts me almost as much as his brother and his brother’s lawyer (and the grifting parents, and drunken, racist, illegal activity committing friends). The whole freakin’ crew is just foul.
I love her videos and this one is really good!
I like it too.
I love this lady. Has she done anything new?
I have alway thought this was a clear and superbly done video.
She has talent!
This lady and LLMPAPA needs to make a baby. Pronto!!! Not sure why that makes sense but it makes sense to me.
How many innocent children have to die
By the hand of those who take the law into their own hands
Before all children are safe?
The answer, my friend, is coming through this trial.
Yes, and how many gz lies do people have to hear
Before they see that he has done wrong?
The answer, my friend is coming in this trial.
The answer is coming from this trial.
How many black children have to be on guard
Against racist stereotyping or profiling
Before the day when they will be respected and safe?
The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.
The answer is blowing in the wind.
Reinvention:
“I remembered it all wrong because my head was in a daze because of the beating I had received. What really happened was that ‘the guy’ saw me in my car innocently trying to go to Target. He stopped my car by waving me down, told me he was a homeless kid and somebody had beaten him up, and asked me for help. Naturally since I always help homeless pBa-lack people who have been brutalized, I said, ‘sure, Homie, what can I do for you?’ He led me to a spot 45 feet south of the T and then mumbled, ‘you got a problem now’ and told me that if I didn’t submit to a beating he would let all the kids I mentored know that I was a penniless Afro-Peruvian derelict. This would be very bad for those kids because they look up to me so much, and there’s so much rampant prejudice against Afro-Peruvians these days. So I submitted. But when I couldn’t stand it any more and I said to him to stop and get off me, he refused, and then I realized I was about to be killed. So I shimmied and pulled out my gun and shot him. Only once. And he cursed at me. And I said to a neighbor, ‘help me with this guy,’ and he said, ‘I’m gonna call 911,’ and to be honest with you, I was so stunned and shocked that I forgot all about that until just yesterday and I told my lawyer, ‘I’m a decent American; I’m obligated to get on the stand and swear my oath and tell the whole truth,’ so he said he would let me testify. And I love my unborn children.”
HAhahaha. That’s about the size of it. And God’s plan to you all and good night!
G’night Two Sides and Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea…
That would be a better defense than anything I have seen from MOM so far!
@Crazy –
@Malisha –
Fogen’s defense testimony will be:
“I am not George Michael Zimmerman.”
Mark O’mara – BUSTED!!!! George Zimmerman Lawyer- Revealed – Lied
bout he knew apaypal 37k transfer, flat out lied to Lester,blamed Fogen
Yep sounds like a story the derelict Afro-Peruvian would say. I’m sure DaddyZ has come up with a new version and GZ won’t be able to follow that storyline either. See everyone Monday.
From what I’ve read it looks like defense lawyers are saying O’Mara is going to have to put the child killer on the stand, I agree I don’t see how they can avoid it and I’m sure he want’s to get on the stand. I could be wrong but I don’t think he can help but re-invent his story.
NeJame has a video up on his law youtube, that claims the defendant will take the stand because he gave up the SYG hearing before trial.
Will fogen try another fake apology or what will his spin be this time? The jury won’t like him being manipulative this time, with the cameras and the victim’s family watching.
Guaranteed to be interesting, but can’t see how MOM can risk this, unless he can somehow hamstring the defense with In Limine motions, limiting Bernie’s questions to what the defendant’s name is, and what day of the week it is.
hamstring the state, not ‘defense’ DUH.
Screw NaJame he’s playing games to make money. He knows he’s guilty, he did not take the case..
I pray he takes the stand, BDLR would love to grill him for 2 weeks.
Imagine Zimmerman explaining his written statement why he shot a kid, jumped out of the car, over a NEN call as he likes to let everyone know.
Cannot risk Fogen on the stand.
Looks to me like he’s so medicated even his name and the day of the week could come out wrong.
I can just see it.
“State your name please.”
FOG — uh — George Michael Ohfuck, I mean — O’marphuckt — um, actually, I have a bad memory, I have ADD.
“What day of the week is it?”
Coonday. Uh, I mean Punkday. Uh — Monkday. Fatterday.
It would be nice to have BDLR grill Fogen considering West is a lawyer and Bernie made West out bad
Can you imagine?
West: We would like to submit Fogen to the stand but he does not want to be cross examined
JN: Denied
West: What does denied mean?
(argues with Nelson for 5 minutes until Nelson says “for the 50th time”)
West: Mr. Fogen, so you are a decent white, I mean Afro Peruvian gentleman who never lies, right?
Fogen: Yeah (breathes in) Yeah (breathes in) these assholes look pu-ba-lack. Hot dogs.
Okay, now I’ve got the June 6th, 7th and 8th Frye hearings up and I’m peppering the evidence pile with live stream links I’ve got the “wildabouttrial” I’ll add the other link choices as I find them posted. I’ve been so far behind and it’s hard to break to get anything done. 1 hour to trial!
Justice for Trayvon
Hoodies up!!!
|||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||
My guess is Fogen will take the stand and tell more lies that contradict himself even more
This may be why the defense is attacking Bernie with their spin about evidence. They are afraid of Bernie, deathly afraid. (they should be afraid of Mantai, he’s wonderful to watch, love his style and talents)
All this whole hearing was another attempt by MOM and West to delay the start of the trial. The longer they can stall the more money they hope to trick the gun/racist nutz to pay out to support the cause! I just talked to a bail bond friend that I fish with, and he told me that if he was holding the paper on the bond, he would have objected to this modification of the terms of the bond with out the lawyer of record signing a guarantee of delivery of his client upon demand of either he or the court system. Fogen is a flight risk, it is not that far to an area where he can escape from this country via boat or private plane. With the attention this case has brought all over the world, it would not be impossible for Fogen to ask for and possibly receive political asylum in one of the South American Nations that are not especially fond of our government…
All Fogen would have to do is ask for the money and the bigot would give it to him to flee; probably help me with transportation.
sorry typing while tired…. …as the bigots for money who would give it to him to flee.
@Woow!
Yes! GZ has a demonstrative sense of entitlement. Even with money earmarked to pay for services, he steals it. With money requested for his legal defense, he paid his debts.
No matter the result of trial, ShelLIE will still be homeless, unemployed, and awaiting trial on perjury. No doubt GZ has considered this and will use it as an excuse to get the heck out of Dodge ASAP.
The flashlight dropped from fogen’s hand, he says, when Trayvon punched him at the sidewalk ‘T’ while on his way back to his vehicle.
The flashlight was found some 45 feet south, and on the ground near Trayvon’s body in the area where other evidence objects were found, including Trayvon’s phone, the shell casing, and store purchases Trayvon had with him.
This flashlight was the larger of the two fogen had on him when he left his truck to follow Trayvon, The flashlight in Zimmerman’s hand, according to his own story to Detective Chris Serino, was the one that was ‘not clicking on’..
George Zimmerman puts himself, flashlight in hand, much farther south than in his ‘at the T’ story.
Great posting of LLMPapa’s videos, ay2z!
thanks for your help 🙂
The location of the shell casing, the T, young Trayvon’s body, and the flashlight that would ‘not click on’…….
That damn flash light did an awful lot of rolling didn’t it? in order for it to end up in the same area, where Trayvon’s body was found and, with that said, Fogen has got a lot of splaining to do. the thing with that is, he will not get out of being crossed by the state.
Not only rolling. It managed to roll all that way, then leap up and over Trayvon’s body to the other side of him and roll some more before it came to rest. He disgusts me. I pray he takes the stand.
They’re spending the money on PR and filing motions. No defense
It’s so obvious that it is a kid’s voice screaming and of the two, only one was actually a kid and the voice sample of Trayvon also matches it
I doubt anyone will risk prison time for perjury during a murder trial, which holds a max of 15 years for Fogen, and also ruin their career in the sciences by lying
It’s also pretty ridiculous the guy claims the sample can not be worked with but then proclaims he never even listened to it
I am not too worried about the sample looping issue because if they really want to go there, they should contact the software engineers and my bet is the software engineers will state that it’s still the same sample analyzed and therefore would be able to tell the match or not
When you loop something, it’s the same sample being analyzed, so therefore the sample would be analyzed twice in this situation
Looping one’s voice sample does not change the fact it is one’s voice sample
Even without the science, hearing is a natural biological function and the whole world could tell it was a kid screaming for help and mercy
In fact, witness 18, 8, 1, 2, 3, Mary Cutcher & Selma, Jeremy, witness 11 phone call to 911, have all remarked that it sounded like a kid making weird noises or screaming for help and that the screams were ended with a gunshot
Among other evidence
Fogen and his gang are a danger to society and the people of the state of Florida
More to the point, I think: Put Fogen on the stand.
Ask him, “Is that you screaming?”
Otherwise, nobody testified that it WAS him screaming, did they?
That would be classic
Then they would play the recording of him stating
“it does not even sound like me”
Then we would hear more lies and stories from Fogen
Any chance the State can introduce the recordings without any “expert” witnesses to tell jurors what to think about whay they are hearing? Aren’t on the scene witnesses enough provide background on what’s being heard?
Then if MOM & West choose to muddy waters with their “expert” guys, BDLR (having gotten a free preview with all this Frye palaver) can quickly knock them off.
TO, BDLR doesn’t need to knock those experts off: too violent! Leave that to Vinnie and Tony. BDLR can simply show that their theories don’t change the fact that it can be shown that the screams did not come from Fogen’s throat.
Is it possible that Judge Nelson can hand all this Frye stuff to the jury – allow a mini-recap with the all the experts during trial rather than excluding anything?
I’m on pins and needles.
I dont think she is gonna exclude it
The Frye hearing is about whether the methods used are approved to get a determination and they are accepted methods
Nakasone is a liar because there is way more than 3 seconds of screams
I think she will let it in and let the jury decide for themselves how much weight to give it
Doddington gave a clue to the FBI standards of sample quality in terms of sample size etc, as he admitted to Mantie, that the FBI had far higher standards than other groups.
Nakasone was using those far more conservative standards in his work for the FBI.
Once evidence is admitted, does the jury have unlimited access to it? Can they listen to the scream recording as much as they want to? With headphones, etc?
Even if there were only 3 seconds of screams, the methods and forensic techniques used are generally accepted. Nakasone would not have used them to reach any conclusions at all — so that’s his way of approaching things. (Remember, the FBI reaches conclusions WHEN and IF it WANTS to!) That doesn’t mean another expert would not use the same technique and methodology, generally accepted within the field, to reach conclusions that Nakasone would not feel comfortable reaching.
So that’s the whole story, from the Frye hearing point of view. The rest is up to the jury.
Remember O’Mara’s claim that the experts on the audio were “coming down all over the place” so there shouldn’t be ANY expert testimony? So where did they all come down “all over the place”? NO experts said they could use generally accepted methods to conclude Fogen screamed the death shreik. Not ONE. Some said they could rule him OUT. Others said they couldn’t say anything about it (a favorite investigative technique used by investigators who do not want to form a conclusion, as obvious as it is, for political reasons).
I saw a case where four children claimed their father had molested them; physical evidence from two out of the four (measurable tissue damage on girl children indicating forcible penetration) directly supported findings of abuse in agreement with the disclosures made; the Army Criminal Investigation Division issued a report indicating the father had molested three of the four children (not having military — only civilian — medical records on the fourth child); and the CO refused to prosecute and assisted the father in getting custody of all four children in spite of the disclosures. We brought the case to the Inspector General of the Army who produced a 470-page report concluding that (a) nothing we had reported was incorrect or inaccurate; and (b) the Army I.G. was unable to draw any conclusions.
See, the DOAIG, using a form of “reticence” and “conservative approach” like the position Nakasone takes, could admit all the evidence we compiled and still fail to draw any conclusions. Just. Like. That.
The Colonel at the Pentagon in charge of the IG investigation told me that every time he spoke with me he got a headache. Yet he was very respectful and in fact very “understanding.” He “understood” and “yes ma’ammed” me to death. So I said, “Colonel LoPresti, you do not argue with my information and you do not disbelieve it.” NO MA’AM. “So I am presuming you do not think that I have faked any of this information.” NO MA’AM CLEARLY YOU HAVE NOT FAKED ANYTHING. “So I must conclude that you accept all this information as valid.” YES MA’AM.
Next time he met with me I brought him a full bottle of Aspirin, 325 mg., 100 tablets. “This is on me,” I said. THANK YOU MA’AM. “You are now required to actually go through this information and come out with conclusions, right?” YES MA’AM.
Nakasone-like, FBI-like, he came up with: “We must thank these activists for caring so much about the welfare of children. We can’t figure out anything else. Good-Bye.”
He never SAID “Get Lost, Ma’am,” he just did what they do.
Interesting, Malisha. I think my dinner is going to come up, though.
There’s nothing written in stone that 3 seconds can not be used either
That’s just Nakasone’s take on it, that is it
Nakasone’s feelings do not represent all of the community and if we did an honest evaluation I feel it would be accepted that even with 3 seconds, a determination can be made, considering
1) One is a kid and not fully developed, therefore the voice will be much different
2) Fogen has a creeper whisper pedo voice IMO
3) It was less than 3 seconds and I could clearly hear a younger voice say “Get off” in a desperate manner
4) The screams end abruptly at the gun shot, which even the dispatcher on the 911 call noticed and she can even testify to that fact.
That’s why I do not have a high opinion of Nakasone. I feel if he really works for the FBI, that he should be fired. There will be times where there will be short samples, and his ghettoization of the art of audiology is fucking up the elevation of the art of audiology forensics. There will be times where there will be tough samples and if he is unwilling to figure out a way to a solution, than he should not work as an audiologist because he sucks.
Owen looped it and his solution to the problem is effective considering the method to analyze is accepted and accurate, and if you loop it to be analyzed, the sample analyzed will thus be analyzed twice and therefore tells the fact in one go that after two analyzations, it’s not Fogen, in one go
Reich is an old school muthafucka and even he could say that it was not Fogen
Two different audio forensic methods both exclude Fogen as the person screaming for help
Also common sense, it sounds like a kid’s voice screaming for help
“you gotta problem homie?” He said 2x only a few hours after the shooting. I bet when Fogen got home he was told nobody uses Homie anymore and that’s why he never said that again.
I think that is important. Jeralyn disagrees, but I believe the prosecution should make it very clear Fogen used a very specific word that he later withdrew.
Someone on here posted about the written statement Fogen gave police, I had not read it in a while, wow what a doozy of a statement. Everyone should read it again It clearly shows the disoriented mind of Fogen. Did he really believe NEN told him to do all that? That is really scary. And guys like him get a Concealed gun permit.
No wonder he thought Trayvon was Al capone.
boyd, LLMPapa put it together in a video as a series of sound clips from an NEN call. All those things WERE stated (can you get to where you can see him, address request, etc), problem is all those statements (about 9 points) were made in the call the week or so prior, about the suspicious person at Frank Taaffe’s place.
I can’t find the video right now. Maybe someone can point to the title, I can’t remember but saw the video recently.
Here it is, ay2z:
Thank you!! The Script…. yes!
THANKS
“The suspect again emerged from the darkness…”
dahn da dahn dahnnnnnn….
And the hero has to spring to the rescue of the flower of Southern womanhood ….
Ta daaaaaaaaah!
“Dear Lord, deliver me from this intolerable crap.”
Birth Of A Nation
Everyone here this was the best Saturday I’ve had in many years.Today No laundry done or lawn mowed but reading all your comments was well worth it. I couldn’t bear to watch omara or west but I got the idea.I laughed till I cried at your comments.This is a tragedy but making fun of defense’s antics relieves the stress and you are masters at it.May God give Trayvon’s family all the strength they can muster to keep going like they have so far.
boyd, New Script Writer Needed by Papa with the source of the clips,
Two sides tas, Papa did two, this one is the second requesting a new script writer!
Telling, isn’t it.
I think we should all enjoy the rest of the weekend off, Monday will be filled with more delays, more confusions over scheduling of Frye and Ben’s depo and whatever else the defense can drag out.
Thinking that Crane and Prof are having a good weekend, they deserve it.
Dr. Doddington talked about Human Aassisted Speaker Recognition in NIST. He called it by the aconym HASR.
NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology)
Skipping over to the Summary page, we read that the HASR systems did not compare favorably to the ‘Automatic’ systems used in the HASR trials.
(could O’Mara be stretching all this into ‘the jury’ has not been evaluated nor Frye qualified for it’s ability, as individuals or a panel, as a methodology for determing speaker identification? –> snark but this HASR trial did include human listeners, afterall that’s what the ‘H’ stands for. )
To do this, that is remove the ‘Human’ factor from listening and making their own human decision about the audio recordings or elements of those recordings, will O’Mara try to stop the jury members from hearing any of these recordings?
Can they use this argument in their motion in limine to keep the 911 and NEN calls out of evidence at trial? Suppose they can try.
A continuence might be useful in the meantime, and that ain’ta gonna happen on Judge Nelson’s watch.
HASR Workshop pdf:
Click to access hasr_od10_webpage.pdf
Reich knows his sheet. If NIST was so good ( I worked in Gov’t private sector, and I’ve worked with NIST,DARPA). Have friends at NIST. So what they don’t know anything I don’t know.
NIST would have made a product that works better than any other. oh no they do not do that. How convenient, they can’t put any of their crap in practice, but they can consult you? BullCrap.. LOL!
The govt loves high degree personnel , nothing wrong with that, except govt work is much much different than the private sector. I see many high degree people in Govt HIDE. It’s easy to hide behind some document, while they’re waiting for a Zuckerburg, Gate, Jobs to make something happen.
The govt has SME (subject matter experts) and they are, but it’s much different than an expert in the private sector.
In the court of law I wold guess they’ll lean towards the govt experts.
Brings to mind the old expression about “good enough for gov’t work.”
Thanks, boyd.
And catch the Papa video that Two Sides found for us, ‘The Script’ she posted below with the drama masks. That’s got the NEN call that gave fogen his new script additions for the 26th.
Yeah I work about 1 mile from NIST. Before I ventured down to DC to take advantage of the demand for IT, I worked for 2 start-ups before.
Reich is a private sector type of guy. I LMAO when he said “standards, oh that;s a few guys in a room telling everyone what they should do” or “you tell me what the standard is, there is none.
I laughed my ass off. He’s THAT good. He don’t need no one to hold his hand.
As I said earlier, the defense witnesses all say that the technology can’t identify based on screams and they can’t identify based on such a small sample. On this basis, I predict that will ask that all experts be barred from testifying. With no experts to explain who’s screaming, they will next try to get the tape inadmissible.
That sounds really stupid to be honest because the experts did identify who was screaming for help
& Nakasone is lying because there is more than 3 seconds of scream tape
as well, even without forensic equipment, everyone can tell it’s a kid screaming for help and mercy, including the judge and the press that were there
The defense also brought in people who do not even work in that field nor have they even bothered to listen to sample to state objectively state that it can not be used
Reich even offered to play the tape to prove that he could ID it, and West said “No”
JMO but I think Nelson already concluded that the methods are accepted and drew accurate determination and results
Huh? But that would not be valid Fyre basis for exclusion. The only test is whether the tech/methods are generally accepted and they all agree with that. Difference of opinion goes to weight not admissibility. There is no way the tape is not admissible regardless of what the defense tries as they have no rational basis to claim otherwise.
I doubt it.
Everyone in the world can use their own ears and listen for themselves
It sounds like a kid screaming and pleading for mercy and help
It sounds nothing at all like Fogen
The judge, the press, the jury
They can all tell it was Trayvon
Anyone saying otherwise is just bold face lying
Plus as stated the methods are accepted and that is what the hearing is about, if the methods are accepted and they are and they can determine a result
Nakasone simply claimed it was too small a sample but he sucks and I am guessing lying because there is more than 3 seconds of screaming
Then the defense brought in “experts” who know nothing about audiology and are electrical engineers or whatever
It’s honestly up to the people who testify for the defense but it sounds like a simple perjury indictment and an obstruction of justice indictment if they dare lie on the stand at a hearing for Frye
Just to be clear. I said this is the objective of the defense. I don’t know what’s going to happen.
While the methodologies are not new or unique, not one of the defense witnesses would even bother trying to do speaker identification based on such a small sample. I predict we will hear the argument that trying to use established methodologies to work with such a small sample is new and unique and therefore, the state’s witnesses should not be allowed to testify. If JN agrees, the next motion from the defense will be the inadmissibility of the tape b/c there is no one to identify who’s screaming. JN can either grant that motion ( if it gets this far) or she can decide to let the jury decide.
The defense is properly putting an emphasis on the scream identification b/c if there is/are expert/s to identify the scream as coming from Trayvon, it’s all over but the hangin’ (metaphorically speaking)
there was over40 seconds or more of screaming. Have these lost their hearing?
That’s not true
If the defense claims it is new, then it becomes a Daubert hearing on the evidence, if that is what they want, and then it is up to the judge to decide if the methodology produced an accurate result and my guess is it is accurate
However, the methodologies are not new and are accepted by the forensic community
The same thing happened in Canada with |Glove Printing|
The judge listened to the detective about Glove Printing and found that although new, the science made sense and the odds of anyone else having the same leather gloves are a very slim chance
The fact is that the methodologies are not new
When they looped the sample, the same sample was analyzed twice in one go, so it is even more unlikely to be Fogen, according to the software since it says it is not a match to Fogen
Anyways I am not the judge but she sounds to have common sense so my guess is she will allow it in and the jury can decide for themselves how much weight to give it
Thanks for posting that, Yahtc, because we see the phone in fogen’s right hand, and we know this is time stamped 3 minutes and a few seconds, after the shot was heard that killed Trayvon.
Then, we know fogen ‘claimed’ on video to investigator Doris Singleton early evening of Feb 27th, 2012, that he was not allowed by the police officer to call his wife, but says he asked a man with a flashlight to call his wife and says ‘within 5 minutes’ his wife knew about the shooting because she called his buddy Mark, who was at the scene.
Shot heard
+ 3 minutes Photo of back of bloody head was taken by police officer while fogen making a phone call, but according to fogen, this was not to his wife.
If fogen was not allowed to phone his wife, who WAS he allowed to phone, or did he not ask permission? Maybe he got permission to call his buddy Mark back, ‘the officer that I called’ which was earlier during the address hunt to RVC? Strange..
LLMPapa found the comment to Singleton early on, putting it together with this photo above on the video, makes you wonder even more.
Fogen’s phone record releases don’t yet show a call at this time, do they?
Interesting Snip
that picture was also doctored he had no horizontal cuts on his head.
Thanks for your magnificent work, LLPapa.
All of these videos show your dedication to seeking justice for Trayvon. You have given so much of your time and brilliance to this cause.
.
YAHTC — Thank you for posting the refreshers. …
“”The larger man on top … after the shot, the larger man was walking around … what I saw was … on the grass.”
If testimony to this effect comes through at trial, doubt jury will care what audio experts think about new, old, or indifferent technology.
yw, Trained Observer.
These superb videos by LLMPapa incriminate gz and are based on solid evidence.
Who is the gentleman with the white hair that is always sitting behind the defense. He came forward during one of the recess breaks and I saw he was wearing a badge clipped to his tie?
The guy with every spiking white hair and reddening face? He’s fogen’s bodyguard.
Ok thank you. Has Fogen’s parents been in the court room or sister for support?
Some body guard he would be, my six year old grandson can take him on.
But another bodyguard came in to escort the killer out. ?????
@groans. IMO, because the white haired man wears a badge, he is probably a sheriff assigned to that courtroom during hearings in GZ’s case, to escort GZ in and out of the building and to the men’s room. This is not just to make sure that no media is there, but also to make sure that GZ does not escape.
A personal bodyguard would not wear a badge displayed to the public.
I’m betting the belmont stakes today, so I’m not paying attention, how did it go?
I expect not so well since they lined up 3-4 witnesses to dump a poop on the findings
However no need to fear, I’m guessing they never asked “who do you think was screaming when the shot was fired?”
The evidence is overwhelmingly against Fogen. Wait till the witness say they heard a young voice and OM says Fogen sounds like a little kid. Wait until they get into his written statement. He tried to blame it all on NEN and some episode from 2011.
Today Don West wanted Judge Nelson to adjust the order of bond conditions to allow client to report in to his bond supervisor during trial hours.
So the judge complied, although she felt this was not necessary as they would know the defendant would be attending his own trial.
A reminder about the bond conditions, and who originally rewrote the bond conditions for this defendant, and why. (hint, the reason rhymes with ‘why’)
This defendant found himself on GPS, curfew, restricted travel and 1 million dollars on the hook, for his decpetions and lies to Judge Lester.
(Call to report outside of court hours.)
Anyone on bail has the same conditions. Don’t see why Fogen should be treated any differently, especially after the jail call / paypal fiasco.
The jury can listen to this expert’s opinion, he was there at the killing of Trayvon and is an expert, lifelong expert, in his own voice:
An Expert’s Opinion
.
And ‘Just Listen’, no audio expert needs to define this meaning for any juror,
(It’s rather like Mr. Mantai asked today, of Dr. French, did you hear anyone on the tape say “you are going to die tonight, mother fucker”? What you don’t hear on the audio, is evidence of something important too.
Exactly. There are different ways to hear and ‘view’ the 911 tape with the screams and shot and these don’t depend upon science or experts.
I can’t imagine that this call wouldn’t be played at trial. It will have a huge emotional impact and not in Fogen’s favor.
@TS, good evening and, the NEN tape sure would have an impact on the jury, this is exactly why they don’t want it in as evidence against the admitted child murderer.
This case/trial has turned into something awful ugly, all because the racist bigots in this country want to see this POS get away with killing this AA child. when people talk about how terrible the world is, I can only shake my head because, it’s some of the people in the world that make it awful.
Now we have some of the very people who criticize the world that GOD made, going to Sanford Fla and picketing of all things a damn murder trial. how’s that for logic and common sense?
The lies he told were clumsy but he had no reason to make them any better than that because he knew, and had been assured, that he was immune to criminal penalties. He was so cocksure of himself that he said any old thing. He began to get a little worried when Serino let a few of his attitudes sneak through and Fogen would always respond by saying either “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” or just mumbling something so low that nobody could decipher it. “amknooph” or something.
Fogen never had to worry about his Miranda rights or anything else until Lee bit the dust, Wolfinger fled the scene, and Corey held the reins. Then he thought he could finesse everything by coming out with the “I helped poor Sherman Ware” and “I have pBa-lack friends” stories, until it spiraled out of his control and he was taxed beyond his capacity for trickery.
For hundreds of years guys just as murderous and just as dumb as Fogen have gotten away with just as bad and worse. My my, his bad luck to get caught in a scene that was played closer to the written law than the “law” recognized in his fantasy world. I’m all choked up.
and there’s Sr Z’s attempt at talking to the FDLE about how he might make all this go away.
geez, the guy is a blatant liar. no way in hell so many extremely low odd events can occur in 5 minutes,
oh wait, he’s the only witness so go figure. He’ll tell us next God talked to him. How can we disprove that?
Next they’ll say Fogen sounds like an 8 year old. I listened to the kid’s voice, when kids get emotional the voice goes high pitch,….. He’s sounds like any teenager
Jeralyn says he has a deep voice, she is crazy, I wonder now what her true motive was with Timothy McVeigh She has made some outrageous statements during this charade f a trial
There’s more use for the audio than experts, the jury can listen to this statement by George Michael Zimmerman himself:
He Yelled Out for Help
Good Morning all,
For some idiotic reason I went over to the CTH…I go over the occasionally for a good laugh but usually end up a little scared that people like that are running loose in our society and even scarier that most of them own guns…Anyway the opening page had me LMAO, here is sundances morning quote
“Today, Saturday, the prosecution will continue their audio peeps – Then the Defense will drop the hammer with their EXPERTS. The defense experts are actually that, experts:” (they then provide links to the websites of the so called” EXPERTS”)
I then made the mistake of going to the comments section where there is talk of Sundance addressing the country (because all the media will be there) from the steps of the courthouse. Some of his worshipers want to stand there with him for support.
Disgusting bunch over there.
Have a great day
They are truly puzzling.
Oh my Sundance is as delusional as Geoge and Robert Jr. That is scary.
they know trayvon was the one screaming,they just don’t care.
It’s all pretty obvious that Zimmerman fabricated the whole story. He never reached the short cut till you hear the banging of the flashlight because he was parked down the street by the mailboxes not anywhere near he claimed to have parked by the short cut.
He wasn’t banging his flashlight, his gun jammed after he chambered around.
And another clue.
Subsequently you hear him say “shit gun” because it jammed. That wasn’t his flashlight because if it was they would duplicate the sound with his flashlight. Since he likes to pretend he’s a police officer, I suspect he was using a flashlight and gun technique to confront TM.
Perhaps I have a misunderstanding of the gun racking technique, but I don’t think it makes that much noise. Doesn’t the shell advance by pulling the trigger? Then when you’re ready to shoot it’s another pull?
There is a critical role for the flashlight that fogen claimed wouldn’t go on, and it’s not about the sounds, it’s proof that where that flashlight was dropped, it was dropped from fogen’s hand 45 feet from where he said Trayvon punched him one blow, to the ground.
That flashlight is hard forensic evidence, backed up by fogen’s own statements to Serino and by the photo documentation and triangulation surveys of the scene and evidence locations.
As much as he tries to, as Prof said, sell us on a story of swatting flies at night and in the rain, the killer is stuck with the substantial and critical distance from the ‘T’. Forgen’s story is proven false and the flashlight puts him there. The non-clicking on larger flashlight, not the little keychain one.
Whrn Serino heard this from fogen, he immediately asked fogen if he knew how things things can go. Serino knew from the flashlight admission, that fogen was lying about the encounter with Trayvon, and where it occurred.
And Fogen hesitates and then says justifiable homicide, if I remember correctly, the turkey.
Reading on a Fogen support site that defense filed another continuance but don’t have a link.
How many have they filef?
Reminds me of Liar Liar when Jim Carrey is asking for a continuance because he can’t lie and he knows he has no case.
@BlueJ64 just posted this from twitter:
NCIS (Navy Criminal Investigation Service) is buying Biometric Software used to ID Trayvon’s scream
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=040a53963f55309bfa7d6424f9b3d2dd&tab=core&tabmode=list&=
Very interesting. Thanks, mcave.
Looking for dry old attorneys to eat?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-bear-downtown-20130608,0,1688010.story
The article does say that bears are attracted to junk food.
: D .
Nor does it mention what they do in the woods.
They probably do that downtown too.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone listened to the TM screams all the way up with earphones on? I can clearly hear GZ say “help me” right before TM screams his last “help me” before he was shot. Those two “help me”s cannot possibly be the same person and if anyone else could hear that they would say the same. Maybe I missed it, but I can’t possibly be the only person that can hear it.
I don’t hear it well, but some people say that Fogen is mocking Trayvon.
I believe Fogen screamed “Help Me” for the benefit of Jeremy and because lights were going on all around him and he wanted to appear to be in a situation where he HAD TO KILL. It was “staging,” not desperation or fear. He knew Tim Smith was either ON the scene or close to it; he knew neighbors saw him now; he knew he was “running out of time.”
Malisha, I have said that since day one
George Zimmerman said “help me” he didn’t scream “HELP MEEEE” George was talking to someone and not yelling for help across the neighborhood. As for those who can’t hear it, its right before TM cries “HELLLPP MEEE” and then was shot. You have to wear headphones with the sound turned all the way up.
He did describe to Serino or Singleton that he said help me to Jeremy etc. So maybe it’s that utterance and it’s a yell. Fogen made it sound like a conversation in middle of getting pummeled.
I don’t even hear it all that well with headphones and the sound turned up. Trayvon’s screams are gutwrenching though.
I’m thinking that if fogen did say help me, it was to say, “You crook asshole-who-ain’t-getting-away-on-me, who do you think you are, yelling ‘help me’ when I’m gonna turn you over to the police.” Defendant is maybe SO dense, that he did not ever register that Trayvon was his neighbor’s guest and not what defendant thought he was, until a few days after he killed him. I have always thought defendant is a major sadist who got major jollies out of this, at first. He seemed so exhilarated at the reenactment, and at the police station the next day, that it’s obvious he never saw his victim as a member of the human family– and neither did anyone in his circle of friends and family.
My question…. if indeed one can hear George saying/yelling/yelping “help me” DURING that death shriek…. how exactly does one do that? Is George a trained ventriloquist too? He can speak/yell/yelp the words “help me” and scream in terror ” STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP” at the same darn time? That George… he sure is one talented child killer….
One more day Georgie…. tick tock
HOODIES UP
Please remember though that Zimmerman saying “help me” means nothing because he is alivs. The law says that if Martin screamed help me at any time that signifies giving up and since he was clearly shot after he had given up its murder. The defense cannot find anyone willing to say Martin did not scream and that’s why they don’t want this evidence admitted.
What’s relevant about it to me is that the person doing the screaming and crying was TM. What is also relevant is that he was talking to someone.
This is what I believe happened. TM was trying to get to Jeremy’s home because that is the only lights he saw. Fogen said help me to Jeremy and TM didn’t see him because he was too busy trying to break GZ’s hold on him, that’s when I think TM saw Jeremy and yelled help me right after he heard GZ say help me. Instead he turned and went in the home(sic).
I also believe that the 911 call from Jeremy’s home was preplanned as soon as they found TM because her call was seconds after the initial encounter. I believe they both knew GZ was outside looking for someone and hence their inconsistent statements to cover up for that.
Very good hypothesis. gz’s gonna frye.
So I’m catching up on YouTube with French’s testimony – it’s far more interesting than Doddington and he’s far more qualified to discuss voice recognition.
Does he say anything that helps the state?
He’s at least interesting, doesn’t talk in circles, and knows his stuff. And the accent is nice.
Oops, now I’m getting to the part where French is telling the defense exactly what they want to hear. : / Very measured and not arrogant, though.
Okay – on to jury selection. Hopefully this will be more interesting than competing experts.
I can’t help but think that the 911 audio will never be THE determining factor in a juror’s decision making process. I do think the experts can give opinions but I’m not sure anyone will ever think their qualified opinions rise above the standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
For this reason and others I’m guessing the state will not try to rely very heavily on the expert’s opinions about the 911 call to make their case for M2. Instead, they will use the experts to support a common sense argument – that the screaming ends with the gunshot, and the sounds, if made by the defendant, don’t seem to match his description of being MMA punched, head slammed and choked, etc .
common sense, absolutely
Maybe this time gz will take his “tiger swipes” all the way down to where the body was found? The timing and the eyewitness statements don’t provide him with any help at all. I’m pretty sure the SP has a piece of evidence or two that hasn’t been released that really puts the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. My guess is Omar knows what it is and is trying to work his way around it.
Meanwhile it’s in gz’s eyes, it’s finally dawning on him that something really, really bad is getting ready to happen and there’s nothing he can do about it. He’s lost the faith and confidence of his own lawyers who are making fools of themselves as they struggle along.
The media seem to be reading the signals from the defense team and realize that they don’t want to be too close to the defendants side when his story finally explodes, exposing him as a horrible monster lurking in the darkening shadows and struggling against the light of day.
I’ve lost the feed, is it over for the day?
yes, the defense expert couldn’t make it somehow – stuck waiting for a plane, I think and so the judge called it quits for the day saying that Monday they would start selecting jurors and the remaining Frye hearing stiff would be fit into the week’s court time.
I just came back….thanks for the update, Willis.
JN is not letting the defense run the show as they seem to want to do.
west: fogen not call in when he’s in court.
JN: ok, call in before or after.
west: but judge
JN: call in before or after.
MOM: while we’re waiting let’s do the limine motion.
JN: no. we’re not going to interrupt this proceeding. move on.
She’s letting them run the clock but providing work arounds.
Are they trying to run the clock to 6/10 so they can try to change the criteria for the experts?
Oh my I left for a few minutes to put some clothes in the dry and my screen was blank. Are they done for the day? What happened?
the next witness was stuck in an airplane on the tarmac so court is recessed until monday when they do jury stuff and work in other witness.
The last expert had left and ended up on the tarmac waiting to take off on his flight, so couldn’t get him back into position to testify. Not today.
Will happen next week or whenever, to conclude this Frye hearing.
Since there has been no additive value from defense “experts”, the judge should kill this effort off today. Boring, pompous, circular nonsense.
But he was great for the state, Mandai had good control and limited his questions and the witness answers, enjoyed this cross.
@ ay2z
I agree he helped the state. I like BDLR and Mandai’s yin yang approach.
One of the first things any trial attorney learns is that you NEvER ask a question you don’t already know the answer to. This wouldn’t work for West and MOM because they know nothing and would therefore never ask questions. Which would actually be a good thing.
Its over for today. O’Mara’s expert did not show up. This is what happens when Beavis and Butthead run the show.
Next up, trial with jury selection.
Anyways, the Trial starts Monday ! O’Mara can’t stop that train anymore.
hehehehehe!
Th-thh-thhh-That’s All Folks!
No Fryes today. Only cheeps!
Oh you’re a riot, Whonoze! “With one meatball, you gets NO BREAD!” 😆
OK–she called it. Witness stuck waiting for a plane to take off.
Just noticed Z’s shirt, tie and jacket. Can’t his gay brother help him out with his color choices? Just sayin’.
I thought the witness was going to testify via Skype? How then does he get to be stuck wainting for the plane? Does he need a plane to get before the computer? I am disgusted with O’Mara’s sloppiness.
apparently stuck on one and can’t get off because of other air traffic?
A preview of O’Mara’s/West’s trial coordination abilities, perhaps?
No, I guess had to leave his original position and got on a plane.
We have seen Omar theatrics in/out of courtroom . Fake emotion, lies with straight face and feeble attempts of persuasion.
I remember 10yrs or so ago in an attorneys I saw a book on the shelves. The title caught my eye. The book was to teach trial lawyers acting techniques and strageties.
Here are a couple of books Omar may have studied, but he failed horribly in this attempt:;
Theater Tips and Strategies, Winning Jury Trials Using Acting Techniques and Lust for Justice
Your post jogged that memory.
As slow as West is I noticed this morning he had a bit more pep. However, I now believe he was stalling yesterday requiring more court time to complete defense presentations. Done purposely to delay proceedings. To defense surprise Judge Deborah call court in for today a Saturday. By no means was included in defense plan ‘create hearing delay.
If it had worked they would have ask for a ‘continuance’. Regardless we see today they still had not finished. Retaining an expert from another country whom they chose as part of the plan. They thought could help create the delay.
Omar using that hot lie their expert was stuck waiting for a plane. We know they had to have prior knowledge of his schedule.
The airline I flew on just last month offered wifi while in air, which needed to be purchased prior to the flight. So they could have purchased the wifi needed for skype. All airports have free wifi until you board the plane.
No excuse not one, Omar is out of his league and out of his mind. No morals…..
@SearchingMind.
Now we know why he wanted his witnesses to appear via video — because at least one is in London. That witness no doubt had plans for the weekend — had no idea that West would be so slow and so uninformed that testimony would continue for 2 days.
Rather than advise the court that the witness may not be available today, O’Mara tried playing the waiting game and telling Judge Nelson what else she could hear and rule on while waiting.
If O’Mara is allowed, his “expert” witnesses might extend Jodi Arias’ record.
It could also be that this witness was watching the hearing on his laptop and decided he’d rather not become part of this farce.
Jooonyar lacks taste on all fronts … he’s a disgrace to the LGBT community, if he’s truly a member, that is.
IMO he’d claim anything to get attention.
Trained Observer~ well I certainly wouldn’t claim him! The LGBT community has enough problems…
________________________________
So does the hearing resume and conclude with the testimony of this witness during the week?
yes, when there’s time.
I heard that. I mean, will the Fry hearing be over with when they get the 3rd witness testimony?
the judge can make her ruling once they get the third expert done.
good. I’m disappointed this isn’t over with, but at least it’s not delaying jury selection.
Got a full audio of Mandai’s cross of Doddington. He proved to be a very good witness for the state, much better attitude towards the questioner, and helped the state make their argument about differences of opinion, value to advancement in a field, based on differences of opinion by experts, the need for these differences vs all the same opinion situation. And more.
Recess in this hearing until sometime when there’s time next week.
Sidebar, no audio yet, assume more delays to get witness in place in London. It’s well into the evening there now.
‘Bout 8 PM there.
Seems they should have called him first then…
Yes, if he had a flight to catch, they sure should have called him first.
Couldn’t view today’s episode of “Frye Me A River”. Because its about the length of the ‘Nile’ it’s self!
What happened? Was there a ruling?!
Love this Doddering witness as he turns for the state.
Mandai is da man!
Turn for the State AND Georgie is paying for it.
$500 per hour, or a rate deal for the whole day. Higher hourly than Dr. French.
Will he discount fogen’s bill for all the ‘don’t know’, ‘out of my expertise area’ and otherwise inability to answer the defense questions?
Forgen should ask.
Nope, no discounts, he came he testified, that’s it. If the defense didn’t ask the right questions that’s their fault. Obviously the defense was not prepared for this hearing, thus they blundered and stumbled and their paid expert witnesses wound up doing the defense more damage than good. Gee, Omar could have gone to the local college or even high school and hired an instructor or professor to consult with and/or help him prepare for the frye, but nope, dummie doesn’t know how to seek advice when he needs it. He is the worst, most unprofessional attorney I’ve ever seen. O’Mara Law — “Because We’re Never Ready You’re Toast!“
Any surcharge for Saturday testimony?
I hope that he insisted on payment up front.
so they are waiting for some ‘expert’ to get to a computer with an internet connection? what’s up with that?
Saturday night at the pub?
Ooops, caught at the airport.
MOM and West is trying to drag this out in hopes that JN will not call folks in on a Sunday and delay the trial. I think she sees through this and will put her foot down.
I want put it past them,they will try anything right now.
Am I correct in concluding the defense experts haven’t even attempted to do what the state’s experts have done before concluding its impossible?
Sounds like they haven’t – but these long sessions make my head spin.
Yes, the defense wants to put forth the general argument that what’s available for experts to examine is not good enough to make any determination by; and that this decision regarding quality is the defacto standard by which MOST experts operate.
The FBI, for example seems to have some standards that this sample doesn’t live up to.
The prosecution’s experts say the FBI standards shouldn’t preclude them from making a QUALIFIED opinion about what is heard being a match or not.
The defense wants to present the idea that the only thing that matters is whether or not ALL doubt can be removed from a determination.
hmmmm, this isn’t my field but no one can do any good analysis on the sample. and how many hours did mom use to find this out?
Defense witness is late, and so the defense attnys try to bring up limne motions and the judge wont have it.
Then West tries to get the GPS monitoring device call-in times relaxed while he is in court. Apparently GZ is supposed to cll in twice a day and West wants her to waive that while he is in court during the trial each day.
The judge shuts him down by telling him to call in before and after court sessions, essentially.
I think the guy is a serious flight risk. I’m glad she didn’t relax those call in times.
No other M2 suspects in the US get their call-in times relaxed and their curfews extended. Sheesh.
willis — thanks for explanation. Phone rang and I could only hear with half an ear. JN just extended his curfew to 10 pm yesterday. Aren’t these hogs ever satisfied?
And what is so damned difficult about calling in twice a day, before and after court?
I apparently also need clarification on the point of defense request.
The defense’s reason for requesting the call-in time waiver? That’s easy:
The judge gave them an inch.
groan s~ and she KEPT it at an inch!
________________________________
Willis I think west said he has to call in every other day.Must go and check.
Are they through for the day?
no, not finished, sadly.
short recess to allow the next witness, someone the defense is calling – an expert, i presume, to arrive at a location where they are to skype in their testimony.
No, they are in recess until the defense can get the next witness up on skype. I don’t know who’s on direct, West or O’Mara – so I think I’ll take this opportunity to run out and cut my handkerchief sized lawn. I’m sure they’ll still be at it when I get back. On second thought, maybe I’ll cut the backyard, as well. (sigh…)
Hahaha… Not yet, I just heard Nelson say that there were a couple of experts stranded at an airport who couldn’t make it today. I think she said that this could continue after the trial started, in the background after jury selection or some such. Maybe she’ll give half day jury selection and half day frye, I don’t know, we’ll see.
I’ll bet the legal community is laughing their assets off over Omar’s performance, experts from other than the targeted field, paid and put on the stand too boot, proves that Omar’s is too dangerously mental deficient to be holding himself out as a defense attorney.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, a normal profession, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing, he seeks professional advice. Omar assumes that he knows it all and/or that what he doesn’t know he can fake it. Well, faking it might get you over one or two questions, but not through a series of question where you have a real goal you must reach.
Oh wait, Omar already knows whose voice it was on those tapes! That explains why he has to stay away from real audiologists. Thus he can put nuclear engineers and auto mechanics on the stand, chemists, metallurgists and even an Egyptologist. But, under no circumstances must he put an audiologist on the stand. Just like during the trial he must not put on the stand, anyone who might praise gz’s character. Like for instance Oysterman, Taaffe or “Rent-A-Friend”.
“…Thus he can put nuclear engineers and auto mechanics on the stand…”
I’m a mechanic of sorts….race cars, Hi-Perf, and such AND I do expert work for several lawyers. He never asked me….give him my number and I only charge $175.00 an hour. Hell, I’ll tell him what he wants now….then the facts at trial. In the racing field, we call that “sandbagging”
O’Mara and West are stalling. They have no intention of finishing this hearing today. JN saw through that, it seems, and is ready to wait. This is getting beyond intolerable.
Yes, I can tell that she is sick of them and this nonsense. They are going to piss her off to no repair. Do they have no respect for this lady or what?!?!?!?!? Grrrrrrr
“They have no intention of finishing this hearing today”
And their next “expert witness” have no intention of testifying today! Not after that deplorable spectacle! He’s prolly sitting in front of a computer monitor in London watching this mess as we speak saying “HELL NO! You won’t have me sitting in front off a monitor for two days making me look like a damed fool” I wouldn’t be surprised if there is no “witness”!!!
West is a sure nuff ding dong! He ask for a modification, the judge grants one and then he speaks more! Sick of him already!
Agreed. What’s up with this constant requests to modify the bond conditions? Is GZ preparing to take off?
@ SearchingMind
Yep. He’s going to run. He was looking a little too cocky today. I think he made plans to run yesterday when he heard Trayvon Martin begging for his life. He knows what time it is. As soon as the Court finds out that he is MIA there should be a BOLO put out and he should be considered armed and dangerous. Because he is.
That would be wonderbar. Will it be by train, boat or plane? The bail bond co has eyes on him, but like the jail and NEN phones, he doesn’t believe or understand anything. The bonds man is just gonna sit back and relax while a million dollars takes flight, yeah right!
What will happen is, gz will break out and move a couple of miles off the leash, before getting caught and brought back. Bond revoked and has to sit in court in chains. Doesn’t matter, either way the walls are closing in on him fast.
@Lonnie –
If fogen scramdoodles, it’s an automatic “admission of guilt.”
Likely it’s an attempt that O’Mara and West are praying for.
It takes the monkey off their backs.
“Not our fault he was convicted!”
Yes, a very serious admission at this stage since the SYG has been waived. Foggen would have to be very seriously stupid to even think of trying it at this point. A worldwide manhunt would ensue and he probably would not be granted asylum anywhere, not even in Cuba. Assuming he could even reach there. Though they’ll probably let him run and just watch from a distance while they cranked up the media machine. Then swoop down on him with media helicopters in the air making a huge media show of it. The only good thing to come of it is, the racists supporters and donors would be seriously depressed.
texad~ gz can’t run. You better believe that the BOND company has eyes on him!
________________________________
SM He’s running He can call in Sunday morning.He looks too happy and his brother’s tweet about who would play them in the movie is too bazzar even for him.Maybe that’s what the last begging for cash was for.Was it MMP who has said this all along.Does he have to be in court for jury selection.
Pat- he won’t get far. The bond company is tracking him carefully.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
So who is Zachary here? Who’s the innocent next person whose life GZ takes?
SM~ Sure does LOOK like gz is contemplating a run. WHERE, who knows? His ugly mug and huge frame would make him easy to find.
________________________________
The state just put this expert to shame,he left the stand with his tail between his legs. POOR GUY!
I just got off work and tried to listen throughout. I caught the tail end of his testimony from the prosecutor and then MOM going in circles and asking him questions that he could not answer. What the hell is he an expert at because is sure did not sound like he was an expert in voice analysis and/or forensics???? Did I hear him say that he did not need to listen to the tape to form an opinion of the screams?
What he was saying is that he allegedly has not “listened to” the tape, but that from what he knows about the conditions and the quality of the recording, and the duration of the voice samples that it’s not possible to make a determination of who is yelling.
What he’s leaving out from this pronouncement is the idea that there may or may not be an ability to make judgements such as “probably a match” or “possibly not a match,” etc. He wants to limit the discussion to whether or not it can be determined to a scientific certainty or not.
The prosecution’s experts already admit the sample is of poor quality and short length but feel they can make an expert opinion, albeit qualified.
Does NIST set standards for the length of the pole Dr. French uses to touch forensic samples? Does Dr. Buddington check the calibrations? Is a 9’11” pole too short? A 10’1″ pole too long? I’m surprised MOM didn’t ask these crucial questions!
West would have for sure.
Thank god that guy is finished. He was annoying.
There goes O’Mara trying to tell Judge Nelson how to run her court.
Good afternoon, just tuned in.
Was the guy who just stepped down the first witness, or the second?
#2
another 4hrs.. I can’t…
Take what he said and quit MO’M – JUST FRICKEN FORGET IT and let’s move on!!!
This is not about who was screaming!!!! That is for the trial.
Whew. Finally
I realy am distracted with real world eating up my inerwebb time an I never even used the web b4 CAYLEE Anthony 2008? 5 years 49 when I discovered the net.
Of course id heard of it but im a todgilite??? I thinkthats what there called .
Didn’t even get a mobile phone till 8 years ago.
An I still have it a simple nokia non smart.
I put tenner credit on it 17 dollars an it lasts about six months .
3 years ago my betterhalf gave me a blackberry for Christmas.
With twenty pounds pr paid credit.
Ive never used it I cant be arsed the keys to wee an fiddky
Its a smart phone an its smarter than me apparently cause I cant make heads nor tales of it
Once some 12 year old showed me how simple it was to get the innerweb on it
Showed me a web page id need an electron microscope to read.
Never ever ever use my blackberry justme trusty nokia…..
An even then once in a blue moon
I never used to use the phone much back in the day when cell phones were scince fiction like comunicater of star treck
An Computers were the size of a house for BOND VILLIANS liveinf in volcanoes.
So why the sudden neen to use the phone all the time
Just because you can carry one around in your pocket
Or wear one like an earing?
W T F do people have to blab I
inane drivel for you to listen to on buses on trains planes on the street.
..Blah blah yeah Im just round the corner now putting one foot in front of other
Ah can see you now your in the window blahh blah
Yup see you in a sec.
An criminals strolling about with ipods an gps devises carrying out crimes
What a boon to thje P T B have mobile devises been
Big Brother noe knows were ew shop antalk an when ew get up go to sleep go on vacation all because
Of smart phones in dumb people pockets
M O O
Who needs those ankle bracelets when we all have cell phones?
@colin black. Preach it, brother! I only turn on my cell phone when I’m leaving the house and only my family and those friends I visit have the number.
Now O’Mara is rambling and disoriented. Even his Expert can’t follow him anymore. The expert just doesn’t know and O’Mara won’t take no for an answer.
Is O’Mara throwing his own witness under the bus?
O’Mara got an Expert to testify in a field he (the expert) has no expertise in. Way to go, Butthead.
I think O’Mara got all excited by the NSA, F-16s and NIST.
MOM, don’t ask this man anymore questions just rest MOM save face.
I’m ROTFLMAO! Did he just say ” I don’t know” MOM, like I said you should have not called on him as a witness.
Are they going to have this continue tomorrow too?
If the purpose of this Frey Hearing is to determine if the science of audiology is recognized by the majority of the science world… that has been accomplished… I have heard Dr. Reich, Owen and French confirmed as legitimate in the field.
Let us move on and prepare for the real trial on Monday… Geez this has gotten redundant and is a big waste of time.
Even Doddington is getting impatient with OM.
Shit just got REAL! Mantei’s tearing this “so called expert” a new asshole!
I was just able to log on — found the hearing is still going. Who is the guy on the witness stand now? Why is O’Mara questioning and not West? Did West have a nervous breakdown?
Dr. Doddington, an electrical engineer with some knowledge of voice studies.
@Two sides. Thanks! So he’s a witness for the defense? He is really nailing O’Mara to define what he means.
Yes, defense witness, but I’m not sure it’s going exactly like the defense thought it would.
And their next witness is in London. What time is it on the other side of the pond? Will the defense continue calling witnesses until the end of August?
iS COURT ON TODAY?
http://wildabouttrial.com/george-zimmerman-live-stream.html
@ Colin black, yes
Rene Stutzman doesn’t have a damn thing to tweet when the defenses’ witnesses get their assess handed to them on the stand huh? Hypocritical S*%#@!!!!
Ugh. That lady just urks me.
That’s a lady O_O
Shhh, she’s trying to keep that a secret. Actually, I wonder if she uses Secret, hmmm…
Folks were getting on Rene Stutzman last night & accusing her shoddy journalism.
Which folks?
Trayvon supporters on the OS and Twitter.
S L O W E V O L U T I O N
Wow He’s so arrogant he can’t keep his foot out of his mouth!
He’s rude to other professionals!
He just got caught up,
This witness is playing right into Mantei’s hands.
Robert Jr Tweet: Robert Zimmerman Jr. @rzimmerrmanjr 27 May
Last night me & sister actually brainstormed who would play us in “the movie” today and 2moro ill tweet about how hard this is on my family!
Yeah, they think this is all a freaking game!!!
You have GOT to be fucking kidding me!!! Please tell me that is not true. OMG!
Good God.
OMG! Is this the reason he is before the cameras?
“me and my sister” … Is English this jerk’s second language.
Dear Joonyar: Given how YOUR family has behaved since Trayvon’s murder, circumstances can’t possibly be too hard for your entire disgusting racist tribe.
As for casting a movie, what makes you and your silly sis think you’d even have roles? You are strictly lower rung on a ladder of losers.
Disgusting people!
No brainer for junior weezeee
If Peewee Hermans Diary is open he is a shoo in.
They have no real concern for gz, they don’t arrive with him, they don’t exchange glances in court when things happen, they don’t offer him comfort or companionship during breaks and recesses and they race from the courthouse the minute the hearing ends, leaving gz to exit alone. Even his lawyers seem to avoid him as much as possible.
Oh and now there’s this: Earl Ofari Hutchinson Writes Trayvon Martin E-Book; Perfect Primer for the Trial
He seems to have an impression that gz believed he was protecting the neighborhood, but if he thought that’s what he was doing, why didn’t he identify himself? Obviously, simply walking around, following random “suspects” detaining them for questioning and shooting them to death if they resist, is nothing he was told to do. Worse yet, he was informed that doing more than just calling in suspicious observations would make the neighborhood dangerous and make him a potential lawbreaker. Thus, gz was on a mission of his own design that night, one that involved a pre formed template of a plan, packed full of devices that might be needed, if a killing had to be covered up.
Because he covers so many points with so many bald faced lies, it would be hard to believe that he had not thought about and considered these elements before. In short, he had in mind that either an opportunity or need to kill might arise. Of course, if it was a genuine need, then no lies would be needed. Only the opportunity requires him to fabricate a story.
question for professor:
these guys the defense are putting forth as experts at the frye hearing — i do not recall them being on the official witness list that was supposed to be finalized weeks ago. is their function simply to testify at the frye hearing or do they go on to the trial portion? i’m confused.
faux mccoy~ GOOD question! I wondered that myself. That dreaded witness list. Well, if work product isn’t work product anymore, then the witness list isn’t either.
________________________________
Mark Osterman – George Zimmerman’s Friend
Nice SG2 real nice, Osterman, Fogen hiding much more, its’ all coming out.
Thank you for your hard work…
Osterman stated he’d die for his friend but he wouldn’t lie for him. Really? So he didn’t know Zimmerman was training at Kokopelli’s gym?
yeah he knew, more than likely introduced him there..
where do i find the insigating comment made about us….
I didn’t approve it for the board but I have it. I want to show it to Shannon too. The troll accused me of being 3 people. LOL!
If you want to see it email me at 3ChicsPolitico@gmail.com
you got mail…..
Got it!
🙂
More mail 3chicks
See I’ve been nice here ever since I up my trollz repellent supplies, time to break ’em out. Are 3chics only youtube? I googled and thats’ what populated.
No, we have a blog.
how do i find it, i’m at 3chicspolitico, have not found the hater.
WHERE’S THIS HATER, please…..
the hater see we have similiar silhouette as fo pics, that is far as their feeble mind can go.
i’ve been sincerely blessed for my age to be holding my frame, my choice for that particular pic is because it truly resembles my silhouette
i listerned to dr phil/osterman interview for the first time yesterday.
1. osterman adamantly kept repeating he was not there… remember how he he appeared awful quickly at the crime scene to help shellie move fogen’s truck.
2. Mark says. “When I first heard that George had shot someone else… repeating what shellie said. i strongly believe osterman and shellie know who that someone/somebody is.
link to that interview
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/14/1131936/-The-Labors-of-Social-Ostracization
3. fogen/hannity interview fogen said the reason he got out of the truck was to “meet a cop friend he had called” (BDLR is going have a field day with that, State entered that interview as evidence coupled with fogen phone records we will know who fogen cop friend he called to meet at the other side the “T”.
strong possibility the “fogen cop friend is osterman”
sure is not the fogen story he left he truck to get an address for NEN operator defense has chose to use
This defense Expert, Doddington, is Bond. James Bond. 007. Double Secret Service Security Clearance. What a Jacka$$ this O’Mara is.
SM I jus thought about crazy Phillip Shepard, Stealth R US former Special Agent with the former Defense Investigation Services. eeeegggaaddsss!!!
Boy was he an:
ic2fools… guy so secure in his masculinity that he wears pink briefs!
________________________________
cielo62
your right,about that, only thing is they were droopy showing all his wrinklin dirty china..and eeeww dingleberries….
too happy those briefs were retired this past season.
Isn’t he the highest paid expert who contributed absoutely “jack” to the discussion? They could have paid me to ramble and be pompous.
Okay I want 4hrs 24 mins 02 sec and my brain cells back!!!!
That’s right they don’t give refunds…..
I think Fogen can do an extra 18 months for all the time I’ve spent looking at him.
For Real, we got to be punished to get him punished. IC what no pain no gain means.
pffft….
After lunch, we will be back with our double-double secret secret agent man.
(quality and audience aural participantion evaluated and included intuitively for artistic impact in this exemplar of our fine witness)
(sorta kinda looks like him too, sorry Hoff)
LOL this has been the geekiest Saturday I every had……
Hey ic2fools
A hater came to 3ChicsPolitico and accused me of being you & Shannoninmiami. LOLOLOLOL
Say what!!!!! Oh my goodness! BTW how do I find 3Chics site, time I get back to repelling trollz…
SG2~ WOW! A multiple personality!
________________________________
I’m not the one.
http://3chicspolitico.com/
got it! babi girl Big Mama on her way!!!!
SG2~ THANKS! Nice blog! I’m jealous…
________________________________
TYVM!
only 30 minutes for lunch?? what’s george gonna dooooo?
put his pizza in the blender?
gack!
Riech asks for 16 bit data bc THAT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT. At 8 bit, the audio pixelates (almost like a low quality vid on YouTube vs that same video if you click the HQ button.) At 16 bit, the pixel points are a lot closer and more plentiful, giving the data a more exact representation of the audio. Easy to miss things in 8 bit quality. Say if Reich converted the 8 bit to 16 bit, it only converts the 8 bit data to 16 bit data. That doesn’t enhance anything, and the conversion makes the overall quality of the 8 bit audio even more lossy.
How many more witnesses … or is Doddington the wrap-up?
Ok what happened I left for 5 minutes. Has defense finished questioning this guy?
Yeah. Recess for lunch and then state cross.
Hey Brainy Skeletor, no talking to either counsel while at recess or any reporters!!!
Get ready State won’t tolerate you unprofessional sarcastic hot mess!!!!
Break for lunch, MOM, don’t let this Dr. Doddington have a drinkie-poo with his ham sandwich.
Judge admonishes Dr. Doddington to NOT speak to ANYONE, not even the lawyers, about his testimony given or to come.
notice how fogen doesn’t go to lunch? he’d have to go alone. 😦
Love the expressions trying to keep from expressing (hands at chins) what’s going on, by the two state lawyers.
Will be fun to see them make this guy react (with ‘top secret’ clearance he says, MOM suggests he actually has ‘double secret’ clearance).
Looking forward to the change of guard on this guy!!
LLMPapa, look for your music tracks for ‘secret agent man’ !! 😉
Oh I hope Papa is getting audio of this guy’s ‘sayings’.
Are we watching Monty Python?
Double secret? I wish JN would put MOM on double secret probation.
well it’s about f’n time the state shut all that ole good bullshit down! My ears over here bleeding.. It should be illegal to waste this much of the court’s time and money… SMDH
O T
Sorry Prof but Fauxmcoy
I need URGENT HELP / ADVICE IE MY LAPTOP.
iM FAR FRO MEXPERT BUT KNOW from prevous experience that somehow both mine an better halfs ps are virus riddled
Despite both Norton protected an despite knowing for certainty I don’t ever ever vist dodgy sites porn ect.
Im no prude but have no intrerst in those type of sites that might have makware ect
Every pc ive had has fallen victim to malware
I had them feen cockaroaches J Airryarse was barking about.
Anyway while back tou mentioned stuff that made me think you or ur hubby knows stuff.
Bacicly its vital for personal reasons ect I CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE INFO I HAVE ON MY LAP TOP IM USEING.
If I did months an months of vital stored corraspondance taped audi an vt evidence I require relateing to a civil case im involved in litigation against both a housing ass an a asbestos removeal company.
An if this crashes im flucked.
I KNOW YOUR GOING TO SAY BACK UP ECT
bUT In the past ive haad virus enter my system pretending to be a pc speed up or back up system an boom.
My pc shuts down to install an reboots with
That lovely blue screen.
Dind have a Scooby doo what it was first time I saw one.
I DO KNOW,,,,
Is there anyway via Crane or Prof or Xena anyone with a site
I could chat via email
I have no problem giving you an most here my email addy.
But cant post it on this open forum .???
I wont hassle or estalk you just need a few pointers
As I know the end is near for this lap top.
A don’t want to miss trial of foggagge an
I cannot affort to lose my data pertainging to my legal issues.
And I will understand if not poss yours C A Black……
colin — yes, back up your personal data NOW. you can find an online site that will do it for a small fee. when you have ensured that all your important information is safely stored elsewhere, get a windows boot disk and reformat your hard drive. it’s the most reliable way to restore, but it does take a while. you can contact me at fauxmccoy@yahoo.com for more help.
OK I understand will contact.
The most obvious soulution I could think of was to simplt copy the hardrive like what LE do.
But can also have local pc SHOP copy your haed drive or whatever it is.
I almostsound as if I have an inkling of what this jargon means.
But basicly I take pc to PC Land an say her mr man or woman.
I want all the stuff on this pc copied an put onto a new computer.
An although its expensive its that important im willing to invest that much to ensure I don’t lose.
Deep Sigh however
if I go that route ie getting mirror copied hard drive of this pc data onto an other ney pc.
Wont I simply be also infecting the new pc with the viruses or Trojans or whater the fluck the fluckers cal;l themselves.
???? Nortan keeps assureing me an my better half s pc are fine no problem
xyz number of attacks blocked a gazzilion problems fixed ect.
An yet there both riddled with viruses.
My Better halfs pc has been hijacked by ASK FLUCKING JEEVES.
Cant even get google as a hompage
Acording to Ask JEEVES GOOGLE doest exist
Some search engine thst
An She never uses the internet or email doesn’t know how.
Just uses her laptop as a gameplatform.
Any way should realy cut an paste this to your addy thingy
THANKS MATE.
email me — i can help you better that way.
wont let me send email
fluck spent ages writing an then error
See what I mean it does this to me all the tome
Says some errors ocoured
No shit Sherlock
THE EMAIL ADDY ITS displaying isn’t even my email so of course errors ocoured
even if I type correct email still spouts exact same
error message
So I cant give or get your email that way????
Do you run malware programs in addition to your virus program? I find Lavasoft Ad Aware (free version) and Spybot Search and Destroy (don’t confuse this with other names and it’s free or you can donate) run well on computers with any other virus program and will pick up some stuff that virus programs miss. My tech guys have always told me not to count on just one program.
As far as virus programs. AVG and Sophos have worked best for me.
Other than that, I’m not knowledgeable about reviving computers. Good luck!
i’ll vouch for the lavasoft and AVG. it’s what we use on our windows systems at home. i’m on a mac now and use other things. but i would definitely back up your personal data and that’s something you can do with an online service while watching this horseshit.
I back up my data on thumb drives. I lost some data when I didn’t do that b/c the techie who did the work decided on his own that I didn’t everything. Now, I decide. That reminds me, I’ve done a lot of work on files in one folder. Time to back it up again. In fact, this folder is copies onto more than one disk b/c it represents a LOT of work.
I’ve never had a destructive virus b/c I use firefox, a free browser, never the microsoft browser. or maybe i’m just lucky.
and search engines. Bing suddenly appeared in place of google. when bing didn’t give me what i needed, i tried to get google maps. it gave me google but in some other language. a second time bing gave me something else i didn’t want instead of google. i finally got to google but then bing jumped in. i don’t like monopolistic behaviors. i think i’ll go to google every time. it shouldn’t take too long to figure out exactly how to get there every time on first try.
Colin
reformatting is absolutely the LAST RESORT.
Go to malwarebytes.org and download their virus scanner. Don’t get it from any other site.. It will take at least 2 hours to do a full scan; set it up to go overnight maybe. Do it with internet disconnected and Norton turned OFF.
Is your Norton up to date?
There is no point doing a backup that includes viruses. Clean it first. But you don’t need a full backup of the whole machine.
All you need is your Document directories, as that is where your important data lives. Just copy them to a USB thumb drive. Do the Desktop too, if you’ve been saving stuff there. Check Tools>>Downloads on your browser to see if you’ve been downloading to some other directory, if so keep that too. Your emails are all held by your provider, if you use webmail.
CHEERS Ive already got Norton but it sucks an just installed that lava thingy 36 pounds
You also make sence Ive got info cant lose.
Now Fogen looks like he wished he’d stayed in that truck.
jr too
upon conviction, we’ll pipe in recording of this cat to his cell 🙂
Maybe he can join West in a new career of making mesmerizing subliminal recordings.
@TSTAS ain’t that the truth.
Too effen bad because Trayvon can’t help him with that!
I didn’t think it could get more boring than yesterday. I can’t wait for cross.
What you mean haven’t caught up on comments been out an about in real world
Scooting from A to Z Like a whirling Devrish
Caugh the last part of proceedings yesterday
What you me cross isn’t the frie hearing over.
An its time for ffoggagge to jump from the Frie in to thee FIRE of TRIAL.
Jury selection stARTS MONDAY.
Only cross you will here is between council for State an Defendant asking Jurours questions.
M O M…..Good morning Madame an may I say what a fetching out fit you are wearing.
Have you heard anything about this incident via media press internet ect…..
Potential Jurour……Ive heard some hear an there cant say I paid to much attention though.
This is America an unfourtunately bad sad an crazy stuff happens continuasly .It be impossible to read hear an absorb info on all that stuff.
Im a working Mother my Husbands in the Forces fighting to keep this Country safe.
I work part time at wallmart just to pay for child care so yes Ive heard of the case.
But no nothing of what did or did not ocour that night.
M O M……….Thank you for being so open an forth right but you do realise this trial may last weeks or even months an given your condition are you going to be available to be present at all times?
Potential Jurour I can if chosen have my siter help with my children an wallmart will pay my salary if that’s what you mean?
M O M …..Oh no Madame I meant given your rather obvious size youd have to be blind not to notice you are with child.Expecting another little bundle of joy an we wouldn’t want you going into Labour hall way through the trial would we?
Potential Wittness……Im not PREGNANT I had my tubes tied two years ago…….
M O M….Ermm ah move to strike …
J Nelson ….What grounds?
M O M …..I don’t think emm she emm may be biased aga mmm.
B D L R…..No Objections to this witness.
Dude, if we’re going by “common sense”, fogen has already lost and you wouldn’t be here.
maybe his free mystery internet tool downgraded data from 16 bit to 8 bit?
with ‘Hammer and tonging’, let’s not forget! 😉
oui oui
says dr. french
well, no what he’s trying to say (and failing) is more like this analogy – you have a cat in a box and you are supposed to observe it thru a peephole sixteen times, but half the time your eyes are closed.
I’m not sure if he is correct, but what he’s trying to say is that there is only 8 bits of DATA recorded to a 16 bit recording.
This could be a big point at trial if he could prove this is right.
I realize this guy is dull, and a bit obtuse but he’s likely to be admitted as an expert.
oh trust me, i completely understand. my point is there could be a variety of ways in which his data differed in bits from another participant’s.
Simple, why can’t the file qualities be confirmed as 16 or not, and then relate it to unacceptable in terms of Frye?
Confirmed using something other than ‘hammer and tong’.
Oh Goodness who is this guy? Skelator with Brains , WTF
Hey State knock knock knock u there? Please object and shut him up!!!!
This guy is such a bad liar! Absurd that the court is wasting time on him. I am sure the Court has heard the “other language”.
It is very wise for the court to allow all this drivel to go on the record. The fact that it does nothing to substantiate Fogen’s position is fine with me. The way I deal with the boredom is to not listen; I only read comments and then I make my comments on what is reported on others’ comments.
Somebody please put me out of my misery…shoot me through cyber space..I can’t take it…….. when is cross exam
Me next!
where is jim jones when you need him?
fauxy, I doubt this guy even has any Kool-Aid to sell.
FREE tool, can’t remember the name of it. No way of knowing… Wow. This is total nonsense. This cat ain’t worth a damn. How much is he getting paid? Will the State ask? Better be zilch.
All programs, the expert says, “display wave form, display spectrogram. They are all the same”. (he got his free on the internet to do his listening).
“i just downloaded some free app off the internet to listen to the NEN call.”
but he is not an expert in this field. oh boy!
He is unprofessional, sarcastic to other experts in his manner and answers.
About audio suggestibility, about the ‘imaginary stuff’ aka what Dr. Reich heard….
“Apparently to mr Reich, it’s very effective.”
About what Reich heard….
“God, [chuckling] this is absurd.”
“I hammer and tonged it….”
Says he found the 911 or NEN call is actually 8 bit recording, not 16 bit data.
is “hammer and tonging’ a technique that has been evaluated and calibrated and critiqued by peers in pubished review?
ay2z says
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
You got that right ay2!!!! He’ll win the jurors favor, thumbs down…..
I really could scream right now. This is Omars’ fault, procrastination procrastination, should have been expert witness shopping last year, he got what he paid for.
Get ’em State, he can’t speculate, no foundation. Shut ole pompuss up, and wiped the smug smirk right off.
’bout time
Expert to O’Mara: “I can’t speak to that analogy (of yours). That analogy doesn’t make sense to me”. LOL.
O’Mara pls. wrap this up. I am gonna die of boredom!
i guess we should be thankful that west is not questioning. can you imagine boredom squared, baby!
Fogen looks all happy that they’re not jawing about Trayvon’s screams as the experts did yesterday.
Back to Owen doubling scream sample.
MOM; “Were you here for that testimony?”
Expert: “Yes, unfortunately I was.”
“violation of common sense… statistical dependance… I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose.”
But it is simply the software that wants to hear something of longer duration, not something different necessarily. Giving the computer more time to perform it’s own function.
Next we need a computer expert.
“But it is simply the software that wants to hear something of longer duration, not something different necessarily. Giving the computer more time to perform it’s own function.”
I wonder if the state will cross on this.
That’s what I was thinking, not what the top secret man said, I doubt state will go there, he won’t understand it’s not his field of expertise, how the computer works, he’s confused enough in his own area.
But I give this expert this, his sarcasm for his professional peers, in his, and his related fields of speech specialties, is all time low. He didn’t think much of what other people do with his advice either, like those cowboys and others.
These guys will go home tonight to discover that their phones have stopped ringing for good.
Mr. Owen’s machine came up with a ‘non match’ as we would expect, says MOM.
Expert raises eyebrows to that as he seemed to agree with what Owen concluded or came up with.
“It’s a violation of common sense … I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose”
Oh, just love it when this wit talks dirty.
No, homie, I guess you shouldn’t have said that. Um…
Violation of common sense?
“Could you give me a few examples of what you might characterize as violations of common sense, Mr. Expert?”
Well, yes. F’rinstance:
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who has called the police 50 times in the last couple of years to report misdoings and misgivings in his neighborhood can’t tell where the Hell he is when he does it the 51st time;
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who says, “These assholes, they always get away,” is not trying to prevent the particular “asshole” from “getting away” when he gets out of his schruck.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who says he is following “the guy” did not, when he found “the guy,” carry out a preplanned activity with “the guy” based on his assumptions about how bad “the guy” was and the evil “the guy” was preparing to do.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a kid who was “running” is going to hide and double back to face his stalker.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who has chased down his mark then screams bloody murder up until the moment he shoots the kid in the chest with a hollow-point bullet.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy can punch some innocent address-seeker 20 times and slam his head into the concrete 10 times and not get any of the guy’s DNA on his hands.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy on his back being beaten half to death would realize his jacket had slid up while he shimmied.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that a guy who considered another guy “the suspect” would not have his gun drawn and ready by the time he met up with him in the dark.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that there was no fix in this case when the Chief of Police, the prosecutor, and others fled from the scene as soon as the feds announced their investigation.
It’s a violation of common sense to presume that the HOA paid someone more than a million dollars when they didn’t have to.
And there are a few more violations of common sense lying around but I’m headed off to refresh my caffeination status.
LOL – I shouldn’t have said that, I suppose. !!!
What he’s talking about now, is experiment set ups, “I don’t have the numerical results with me”.
Ok…. so what about Mr. Frye?
you think these two lawyers have any idea how they are coming off? they are two of the least guys I have even seen.. and they dont even seem to make any attempt to be winning, anyone, over.
I think their purpose is to draw things out so they can get a continuance. otoh,if they can keep out the experts from identifying the person screaming, the next step is to keep that call from the jury b/c if the experts can’t tell who’s screaming, how can the poor ignorant fools on the jury?
This guy can not relate to real forensic data, he’s an example of someone who says if it’s not perfect, we can’t say anything about it.
No need to put Tracy Martin through that unethical amount of stress; I’ll take Fogen to the dog walk! Me and my friendly little cockapoo.
Please upload video when finished. LOL
I would turn my German Shepard loose on him, but I don’t want him to eat that much fat!!
Expert: “that is a fools decision.”
MOM asks why: Expert answers “Weren’t you hear this morning?”
MOM teaches him that he needs him to answer for the judge because she wants to hear it from him.
Basically RIB… protects subjects to get samples, “how do you get real scream data”
QUOTE: “You would have to put someone under unethical amounts of stress.”
Does this expert mean like the torturous shrieks GZ put his victim under? Is he suggesting this would classify as unethical amounts of stress?
unethical amounts of stress! See we do need to send z back to dog walk with Tracy Martin back there waiting to pounce!
Yup, I would love to hear a recording of that.
IRB = Internal Review Board = People who decide if a study can be done without violating ethics, human rights, or constitutional rights of subjects.
i want to scream right now.
“the NISt evaluation is huge, everybody knows about it, even the forensic speech community.”
he says “Dr Nakasone did not submit to the NIST”, he says, and usual excuse not to participate was ‘too busy’.
He won’t be viewed well by his colleges, on a professional level. He’s done a lot of degrading, getting jabs in from the stand that are irrelevant.
NIST trial segments of speech, are minutes long, not seconds.
These are trials, are they published, what are the reviews. BTW, is this guy published in peer reviewed journals in his electrical engineering field?
He should write a paper on evaluation, and have that peer reviewed.
MOM gets around to asking about papers now, re this study. Critique of technology or issues they were dealing with?
Expert: “They wrote a paper on these results, that’s where I’m drawing my comments on.”
(no cite given)
“Oh I was standing around in a room one time and somebody said: …”
Hahaha… Just ol’ toxic gz taking more innocent people down. Now it’s the experts, 😆
Prediction; the defense’s London witness will be unavailable to testify. Judge Nelson probably suspects this and will enter her decision based on what has been presented. That is why she is not delaying jury selection and said she would continue the Frye hearing next week.
For sure that by now he’s reviewed the previous two days of testimony and decided this is a farce that could very well damage
his image. You really don’t want to be on the stand, trying to tell the defense who hired you, that their questions are absurd, don’t make sense, or that they simply don’t understand the case they’re trying to make. Then have Omar get mad and start knocking you down. Who needs it? Next time Omar calls his secretary will say: “I’m really very sorry he won’t be able to testify because he’s had his brain removed, but thanks for calling!” 😆
@Lonnie Starr.
RIght. I didn’t see all of yesterday’s hearing but one witness told O’Mara that he didn’t know what he wanted him to say.
It didn’t take much to understand that Omar was completely unprepared for the hearing. The way he used “biometrics” as if it was a specific specialty instead of an umbrella under which a lot of different specialties fell, told the viewers, the judge and the prosecutor that Omar was unprepared.
Alicia Martin- Trayvon Martin’s Stepmother
Oh Osterman is so unctuous I want to pour ammonia on him. CLEAN YOUR ACT UP, you low-life piece of filth! Be on an airplane with YOU? I would rather take a Greyhound!
They’re probably gonna grab the Oysterman for helping Shellie remove the truck, tampering with evidence, obstruction of justice.
@Lonnie — I sure hope so. It’s the least he deserves. Malisha’s right, I’d take a Greyhound any day over bein airborne with the likes of him.
And now it’s public knowledge that GZ was a member of a gym specializing in FIGHTING! That’s right he could defend himself– and that’s right he didn’t need to shoot a skinny adolescent!
Heartbreaking. Alicia is right: 29 years old is old enough to assume accountability. The shooting was avoidable in every sense of the word. Z has walked through life with his magistrate pops holding his hand the whole way. [Check the police interview. In the first seconds with officer Singleton, Z unintentionally desribes how his pops has guided him through life. “Son, I’m a judge and I can get you anything you want. My signature is on those meds.”] And when something goes wrong, when he gets into trouble-it’s always the fault of the other guy.
1. My wife filed a restraining order=I’m gonna file one back because she started it.
2. Bar fight with a cop=errr, he started it when he hit my friend, police brutality… can I do a pretrial diversion so I don’t get to spend the time in jail? That way, when I’m done with it, I can brag to my few MySpace friends when I get out.
3. I shot an unarmed kid=but he started it and left me no other choice. And that was me yelling for help.
Excuses are like assholes, everybody’s got one. Time to own up.
ABSOLUTELY!!! Great post.
Agreed!
Oh god, I can’t take this dude.
Wish this were the gong show so someone could end my pain. I am to stubborn to walk away.
Ditto. “Basically” I’m just waiting for the cross.
I am just an electrical engineer…… classic….did MOM check this guy’s credentials before he put him on the stand
Hard to make this stuff up. Better than a thriller novel.
Do you think they’ll actually get up to 3 Stooges level ??
Not a chance, the 3 stooges have too big a lead, and these guys can’t seem to gain any ground.
Wubb, Wubb, Wubb…..Coiniteny….Nukk, Nykk, Nykk !!!
Two Sides- or in this case, a comedy.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
I’m 300 posts behind slow down !!
Imagine what Bernie will do top this guy…..It won’t be pretty.
Maybe these are tryouts for the main event center ring action to come?
don’t say it!!! i’d like to have some free time this weekend!
LOL – I’m an electrical engineer . . . not a forensic speech practitioner!
Loving it…just loving it 🙂 this is the worst defense team.
Ladies aaaaanndddd Genteeeellllmen !! Now appearing under the Big Top…….The Greatest Show on Earth !!!
See the fumbling, see the incompetence, see the stupidity of the FogenPhoole Defense Team….!!!!
Guess the Fogen’s weight………if you dare !!!
What a Circus…!!
Yeah I couldda hit the floor rolling when I heard that. So that’s MOM’s strategy? TCTH must be loving it, one expert: “I don’t know what you want me to say?”, next expert on generally accepted speech tech: “I don’t know, I’m an electrical engineer!”
Okay, so tomorrow we hear from the nuclear physicist, the culinary expert, the geologist, every sort of expert except voice techs.
Huston to O’Mara: Trial is Monday!!! Either Foggen drops some of that weight or his state issued jumpsuit will have to be held together with duct tape!
Toledo, France … er, Toledo, Spain …. artful name/place dropping, and it’s more impressive than Toledo, Ohio, huh?
Degradation is the topic.
“I have an anectdote about the conversation with Nakasone… may I share?”
I was giving a keynote in Toledo France, no Toledo Spain, Toledo is in Spain, right? I was having convo with Dr. Nakasone…. he was relating to me an interesting case…. two individuals were the same but couldn’t be…. as they were speaking over the telephone. We had a good laugh about that.”
All that to say there’s differences in quality of the transmission.
“Dr. Nakasone was not terribly understandable to me. ”
“If there is gross difference in the idiolect….”.
MOM asks about criteria or standards to give insight into those who are trying to give insight …?
Expert says doesn’t have any input into that.
Mom asks about screaming etc.
Expert; “That was all rediculous”
MOM: “we will get to that.”
Expert: “I am just an electrical engineer, but I dont’ know much about speech… I can’t answer your question.”
I don’t think this guy is coming off the way the defense expected!
Expert {big sigh} I am not an expert in speech forensics… (paraphrased)
(re the forensic speech community….)
Expert: There’s Dr. Morrison. who does not get along very well with Dr. French.
Define your community of experts…
Expert: “…. the ‘hard’ sciences, the probability and stats and theory communities, people quantifying, vs simply making decisions.”
Hard science community vs forensic community.
(is MOM going into junk science for the whole forensic science community because of lack of ‘calibration’ to be able to get reliable estimates of performance?)
Ok. This expert does millions of trials, vs what forensic practitioners can do, so they crafted ‘human aided speaker recognation’.
Are we going to do Frye on ‘HASR’?
Because they have bad phone lines in Europe as opposed to better lines or towers in Toledo, Ohio?
hehe, that’s how he might know which coutry he is in Toledo in?? 😉
scientist attempts ‘humor’ … bwahahahahahahaha
you had to be there……:-)
he tells jokes like I do. but I learned that I can’t tell jokes so I no longer try.
well, see — at least you learned. this dude hasn’t. it’s like he’s going into a ‘this one time at band camp …’
I am enjoying the fact MOM can not control his expert witness. This guy does everything but answer the question asked and when MOM do try to press a question the witness is quick to infer the question is dumb. lol
Ugggh, speaking of speech, I have to go listen to doctors and lawyers and police officers and CPS workers talk on phones while eating, talking to their kids, taking a shit, sitting on an airplane, watching TV and godknowswhat now so I can document it on paper.
I’ll be back later.
Do you think they’ll be doing this tomorrow too?
my deepest sympathies, rachael
MOM calls Dr. French, ‘Mr.’. His own expert.
My grandmother would say: OY GEVALT UND GESCHREIEN!
“I’m sorry I don’t recall” (whether system was telephone speech or whatever else MOM asked)
Expert: “It was relative”, (re: doing better on telephone listening).
Expert to O’Mara: ‘I am just an electrical engineer. I have not done a lot on speech. I am sorry I can’t answer your question. I am not a forensic practitioner. I don’t think I can offer an opinion on that’, etc. It is getting better and better;
Okay – we are up to today now.
about time. You got more coffee on???
back to 2008, about study time effect on performance. This guy can’t generalize.
“When you reduce amt of speech to 10 seconds, for nominal modal speech, normal person talking over telephone, basically, error rate went from ….. for (minute and half of speech) down to 15% for 10 seconds of speech.
Error rate went DOWN? (Must have got something wrong)
“I really dont know what you want me to say?””
Oh isn’t he silly!
“What we want you to say, Sir, is that Fogen is innocent, Trayvon was a thug, and this case should never have been charged as a crime, and that Fogen can now be a judge like he wanted all along. Don’t you remember what we told you that first day when you crawled out from under the rock?”
Expert: “What can I say?”
“guess what? I-vectors (sp?) do well the next year.”
“Biometric does well or does not do well” and all systems are biometric by the definition I gave you.”
“WHAT’S THE QUESTION?” (caps apology, but really… !)
Expert: “And listening to Mr. Owen…”
MOM : “Did you review what Mr. Owen brought over yesterday from NIST?”
expert: Yes
expert: “I’m sorry, I don’t know exactly what you want me to say.”
Expert says Owen’s software performed pretty well.
Really really looking forward to the state’s cross….. expect short and sweet and involving the action of ‘eviceration’.
Methinks this expert is “concerned that he will get legal exposure”.
will this ever end?
no, we’ll be putting this on a tape loop for your pleasure and submitting spectrograms to this good scientist to evaluate and pontificate on it … but he is not an expert, so sit tight.
MOM please ask this guy if he has ever testified in court before, anywhere recently, or not recently.
lol
O’Mara’s Expert: “well I am not an expert in this area. I don’t do this kind of stuff” (i.e. regarding spectrographic (whatever that is)).
yeah, that’s a keeper 🙂
Hey IV Java Drip, I am sustaining this cross, aaaarrrggghhh! Watching pompous engineer demean Omar is worth it.
See what happened, hey got what they paid for and getting tongue lashings defense deserves. Procrastination and Karma are 1st cousins.
If durr-fense had done some research while expert witness shopping last year this expert would have been avoided and not be in our face today.
FROM THE DESK OF DROOLY DOZE
(loudly geek laughin’)
i managed to fall asleep during the dr french questioning … don’t know if i can bear to try to go through it again.
girl please you ain’t wrong. i opened another to look at online sales.
dr doddington is as bad as west, oh my goodness, kettle meet pot!!!
Spectrogram definition– he’s way too detailed, voyer transform of signal. Just simplify what a ‘gram’ is vs a ‘graph’.
Expert says “I am not an expert in this area.”
Objection of state, witness just said he’s not an expert in this area, Judge Nelson ‘sustained’.
MOM tries the lasso again.
Yippy-eye-o-eye-yay … thud.
trained observer says
yessirree bob!
dear lord,
help me to keep my eyes open.
Imagine that! This expert might become a fiasco for O’Mara.
I was afraid the defense experts would slay everyone else, but it’s becoming clear that all of them simply have different expertise and different opinion. In some ways, they’re all saying much the same things. No ultimate, definite way to identify voices – only probable opinions and even then, those opinions will differ. Some will say the screams are Fogen and some will say Trayvon, just like we’ve seen up until now.
Just my unschooled two cents. I’m a humanities major and not a scientist.
Just my unschooled two cents. I’m a humanities major and not a scientist.
TSTAS, your two cents has shown more moral intellect than the defense 500k every could.
This man is not even a speech expert he is a dam engineer a pompous one at that. Not saying Omar doesn’t deserved to be spoken to in such a condescending demeaning manner.
Yuck yuck eeee, if anyone deserves this witness its’ Omar HA
Dude right now is talking to Omar like he is a child. ‘Violation of common sense.
Ooowee “best from lay listeners (human listeners).
Exactly. It requires more than just what you “hear.” Hearing requires context to put it together to make it meaningful and that is where a machine has a problem, no matter how it analizes things spectrographically.
ZZZzzzzzzz. This testimony seems even slower than the past two days. Or do I have my Saturday head on? 😀
you sound bright and alert to me, it’s not Sat head symptoms.
today’s saturday? omg. where did the last two days go?
My dad used to say, “get to the damned point”.
sorry I tried to say “when submitting ….standard”
Ok – this makes sense to me having worked with speech recognition equipment for my work. But it doesn’t have much to do with what we are looking for here. What he is saying is that the equipment has to be trained to the voice to work “accurately.” That is why speech recognition isn’t good in teaching hospitals where there are new interns dictating every July. It has to recognize the voice to work well.
Which is why some of the other types of things would be better for identifying who the scream belonged to because this is something different.
Fogen sleepy?
It is evident from Dr. French ‘s testimony that he not only read the reports of Reich and Owen but he also watched their testimony.
His entire testimony was trying to discredit their methodology rather than provide his professional opinion. It seemed as if he felt they were beneath him. Remember he said “not widely used in the UK” as if he has a problem with U.S. audiologist. Please correct me if I wrong but did anyone else catch that.
@professor — Do you think the judge caught that French may have watched prosecution experts testimony and tried to debunk it from a scientific point of view as if he was debating their method to prove his method would be more accepted as when trying to get submit your process to be accepted as a standard?
the state wants to use certain experts. his job is to debunk their work. He seems to be doing so with a sneer rather than actual reasons.
Last thing I remember him saying, before I had to reboot to try to maintain the feed, was ‘intuitive’.
Did this strange guy actually say he suggested improvement in ‘intuitive’ aspects of a system?
Hmm….
Have tried WESH feed, but it failed too, think it’s my end, but they make you listen to commercials each time you try to reload the page.
Back to clickorlando.
Oh, which of the seven continents didn’t participate? Why not?
IKR 😀
Trained Observer~ Probably Antarctica, because nobody lives there.
________________________________
This guy is not a good witness. Out of all of the expert we have herd from, he is the only true scientist and not from academia. He is one of those guys who are so intelligent they are boring. Talk to him about science he is good; deviate from that oooh boy.
I think this guy is going to hurt the prosecution.
This Expert is still rambling. Where is he going with his testimony? What the heck has the funding of NEST and NSA have to do with Frye hearing? I am getting migraine.
Yes, but that was interesting. In a way it’s all pretty easy. Research can only be done on a solid data base set. The problem of Dr. French was perfectly emphasised again by Doddington, really hard to get your hands as such a database for research. If there is no such database, academia cannot study it. Apart from the limited context of the the PhD thesis French supervised such research simply does not exist.
The forensic scientist though may well be confronted with these acoustic matters pretty frequently and DARPA, NSA, NIST and LDC especially the first two influence research but have pretty different concerns or interests that no doubt drive studies. I looked a little in the NIST/LDC angle, that is pretty obvious.
George Doddington did a perfect job in giving this curious foreigner a tiny bit of insights into the larger nexus between the private business and govermental defense field. (Texas Instruments – Iso International ?)– I wish Trent had shut up this time, unfortunately he babbled over passages I dearly wanted to understand–for whatever reason he seems to say not Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, can someone tell me what exactly he says here: at about 01:10, at the Defense Advanced he somehow seems to start Research and corrects to Private Agency, which would make it something other than DARPA. But for whatever reason I had this strong impression of private sector employees being “on loan” in governmental agencies. I encountered that habit over here. I may be wrong, I must listen to it again.
Any help by native speakers? What exactly does he say at about 01:10.
It feels to me he slightly changed towards O’Mara after Manthei prevented a rather long leading question by the master manipulator, which was sustained by Nelson. That made him realize he was in the process of being used by O’Mara.
Texas Instruments, Iso International, DARPA, NSA, NIST, LDC.
It feels after Texas Instrument it was Iso International, although that’s were Trent babbles again, that would explain his emphasis of evaluation and maybe O’Mara’s expectation he would much more emphasise standards than he did. But maybe I am wrong. But this guy is much more concerned about valid results than with erecting standards before he sees the tests, at least now.
He cites Morrisson versus French. That was the Australian researcher I quoted, not long ago.
Does anyone know of a video of the hearing without Trent babbling. I would like to listen to them both again. Personally I am not a fan of hearing to much matters out of the tape, but the Stop by Reich somehow convinced me. That may well be there.
I wonder how and why O’Mara choose this guy. It feels he only wanted to challenge Owen’s statements about the agencies using ultimately the same tools. He needed him to point out the dire need of standards. But not even his friend Hirosato wants to surrender to tests?
That the tools are all based on the same ideas with technical variations, like lately the “i-vector” technology or approach, is something French ultimately confirmed too. Although he himself uses a tool from the University of Amsterdam. I forget the name. Maybe Amsterdam paid attention?
What I found funny, Doddington did not use Soundforge, probably since he never ever does this type of work, He simply downloaded a free tool Audacity to listen or “clean” the call..
What I loved most is that we learned that the cleaning only has a minimal effect. I tried to explain that to Jeralyn. It was pretty funny to see here clean up a snippet of the ABC video to hear DeeDee say what George had told he said.
Good night all. Strictly it is early morning. This was an interesting day. I wonder about, who defense will present on Monday. Doddington may well have been chosen as an expert on standards and that did not work too well, not even Hirosata? surrendered to evaluation, but he surely has his 14 seconds standard. 😉
LeaNder, this covers from 00:58 to 01:28.
He says he worked at Texas Instruments for 20 years.
and worked at SRA international (Systems Research and Applications Corporation) most of time as what’s called an ITA, Intergovernmental transfer, working first at the defense advancing (He pronounces it “advansory”. I’m assuming he meant advancing, but I may be wrong.) projects they did see and then at the National Security Agency and the National Institute For Standards And Technology.
Doddington seemed like he has an ax to grind with all of the voice analysts because they dissed him and didn’t show up for his presentation. They already knew about the drivel we heard today.
what I liked very much too, was that he talked about an evolutionary process. Are you listening Fogen? What science cannot do know it may well be capable of in a decade. Imagine how that would haunt you if you were acquitted. Or can you not be tried again for the same offence in the US? I think you cannot be over here, not quite sure about murder though.
Thanks, a lot parrot, and good morning or whatever fits your special location. SRA International makes much more sense than ISO international. I also had the impression that the NIST/LDC angle was much more about data mining with an interesting language selections than obviously any concerns about a single human scream. Datamining: And there it surfaces again.. I also seem to remember Fairfax Virginia surfaced. That’s pretty close to the US power center. This fits much more his hesitation about standards and his obsession with calibration and ultimately enhancement of reliability.
He probably went into evaluation business and test creation when all the brilliant geeks knew far more than he.
Competition and keeping up with the latest science has left him to just evaluating and not so much inventing and creating.
Evicerating the prosecution, swiftly and effectively, but then as he says, people don’t always listen to him, so maybe the state will survive.
(big snark)
I think getting into this technology field in its infancy has helped him maintain his seniority. I not sure if he is up to snuff on all the higher university science for this field now.
tenure?
This expert just testified that there is a generally accepted science for both speaker-recognition and speech-recognition. The prosecution scores here. Now I wait to see what he has to say on methodology.
Maybe he shouldn’t have called this witness!
This witness is having a hard time getting past his ego to speak to people who can’t possibly understand the complexity of what his genius has done.
What’s up between O’Mara and this Expert? I can’t make out anything significant so far from his testimony. Can someone summarize anything of substance that he has testified to?
Not even if you paid me to. I am so lost.
Nope … but Just askin’: When expert witnesses for the defense go rogue … is it a leading indicator that a wit 1) hasn’t been paid or thinks he might get stiffed ….2) is embarrassed to be associated with defendant after having done the analysis … 3) has concluded he/she doesn’t want to testify at trial for fear of jeopardizing future income? Again, just askin’ since I can’t figure out why this guy is here …
F16’s, cowboys, intuitive use, LDC is where the buck stops, NIST distribution chain and sends out, gets back, evaluates and maybe raises the bar, baton waving as a conductor, but they don’t always do what he advises seems to be his theme message working for cowboys and such.
Like that.
His job is to drag out the hearing to force a delay in the start of the trial, nothing more or less than that….. At the rate the defense is going they will not be thru with this hearing before July….
According to “The Rules of the Road,” there are three things that enable a defendant to win: Ambiguity, Confusion, and Complexity.
Complexity (“Pixels and pings and calibration)
Confusion (Address no address at the T north south clubhouse homie blah blah blah)
Ambiguity (Who screamed? Could have been one or the other? Who hit first?”)
In spite of that, the State’s case is clean and strong and extremely compelling. One of the two parties decided to chase down the other, and he made a contemporaneous record of his deciding to do so and his doing so. One of the parties was armed and dangerous. NOT the other. One of the parties knew that the police were on their way so he did not have any reason to fear the other. One of the parties killed the other. It’s not rocket science.
If there is any problem with the State’s case, it’s not about voice identification or screams. It’s about the prosecution wanting to make a show of doing the job of the People in enforcing its laws, but only REALLY doing that for purposes of not appearing openly to support racist-motivated murder.
So we shall see if this whole thing has been a charade or not.
Thanks for your input, Malisha.
Good food for thought.
God, just get to the point!!!
who is this guy?
Can someone pleeease put back The Mustache and The Goatee back on GZ’s “Micheline-head”. That would be soooo funny.
Is he talking about word recognition or speaker recognition?
Or speech recognition?
I thought it was speech (word) recognition, at first – but now I’m totally lost. This guy would lose a jury, quickly. Like them, I WANT to hear and understand what he’s saying, but he’s all over the place, mired in minutiae, and prone to “digressions”. Makes it difficult.
Easiest way to find out if it is Z screaming why not send him to dog walk. Sunday evening at dark and have Tracy Martin shove gun in Z’s chest. I think that would be fair and easiest way to figure our who screamed. Let me just say no one else should be back there but the 2 of them. jmo
Good idea, but can we substitute a can of iced tea for the gun? I don’t think Tracy Martin would need anything other than his bear hands to make the pig squeal. Or we could wait until he reaches the jail cell of his new best friend and tape his squeals at night when he gets to act like his brother……
lmao! I agree about bare hands. For that matter you could Sybrina and get the same effect. George squealing like a pig and the sounds still would not be the same as Trayvon screaming. Begging.
Fogen pondering …. what does calibration mean?
Today he has the black eyes he didn’t have over a year ago when his nose (didn’t) get broken.
What happens at DARPA stays at DARPA.
Defense should have stopped when they were ahead. This guy will have people lost and lost trying to show his obsession of details in calibration? Really?
Calib is important, but this seems redundant to the point– he’s going after the biometric aspect.
“If I could digress for the moment”.
“I’d like to say, speech is different”
“Speech… is like a dance.”
MOM takes him back, and he interrupts. He’s not focussed.
He did eval of 6 speech recognizers, published, and results of evals significantly less ….. (quality, or?) than ‘advertised’. Go figure.
Mom tries to lasso him, get him roped and tied down on topic again.
Now F16’s, advanced fighter technology, pilot to talk to his avionics. “I have some very nice testimonials by test pilots somewhere in his collection of video tapes, I could bring some and show some if you like”
“speech recognition” “Yes, the variability of speech, the ultimate challenge.”
His whole point seems to be that systems always make errors.
(we got that)
SRI, Stanford Research Institute, “…worked with them on research team, sr scientist, on my second day of work, I was contacted to be borrowed to the fed gov’t, so I really have very little work esperience at SRI Intl.”
“Evaluation driven research”. Ok, got that before, got it again.
Establishing research goals… evaluating… tasking to teams, the data, doing their thing, and conferencing and planning next step… ok… got that.
This guy needs bullet points, SHORT bio work experience, bullet points. Fogen must be chomping at the cow pony bit.
Thanks for this. I also think this testimony is far too detailed – why is Nelson allowing this?
I think defense is coming off as trying to pull wool over people’s eyes rather than revealing all the details of the science. But maybe I’m being impatient.
This is not on point. He is talking about automated speech recognition systems that have to work in real time, which, as I’ve noted, has little or nothing to do with the kind of analysis Reich did.
LMAO!! OMG, this guy is funny. Hey, does anyone know why I can’t get this streamed from the link or the app on my galaxy S4? It used to work fine on my orignal Galaxy S, but had to upgrade and it says my browser won’t support it? Anyone know how I can fix that so I can watch it on my phone like I used to?
not positive but it should be a mere browser update. I think I saw something on youtube about this subject.
but I want to get rid of my stupid iphone s4 and get the galaxy- what ever number has the biggest screen..
It’s the note. I almost got that, but I couldn’t afford it. And it would be too hard for me to carry around.
lol MOM can’t control his witness!!
MOM can’t control his client or his clients’ family either…lol. Not surprising he has a rogue witness.
OMG! We’re going to be here for hours. Thank goodness West isn’t on direct or we’d be here for days, with these two.
I know. I think they are related.
O’Mara is equally awful. He is a very slow but good window dresser. It seems also that O’Mara has not gotten used to the difference between speaker-recognition and speech-recognition and his expert has to keep correcting him (I don’t even know what the difference is).
I think: Speaker recognition would be IDing the voice (Trayvon/Zimmerman). Speech recognition would be IDing the words that are spoken (Help, I;m begging you, get off, etc). At least that’s the way I’m understanding it so far. I could be wrong though.
“You already KNOW my name” What an example for a witness to use to his lawyer.
Entry door recognition. “I’d love to talk about that for hours”
You already know my name. LMAO
Yeah, Omar back peddling now…
Doddington or Dodderington… oh, Doddington.
“Speech is like a dance”. That new theory. And a good one at that. This expert started off rambling and nervous. I hope he is able to collect himself in the coming few minutes.
“what do I need to say?”
Repeating the Texas Instruments, speech recognition and speaker recognition.
MOM: What was TI’s interest in speech recognition?
Big Blue tie: “Beats me.” “Texas instruments, they are a bunch of cowboys down there…. ” (ie: Only they understand why they did this)
Heyyy, don’t hate on cowboys! I like cowboys! 🙂
SG2~ They’re a lousy football team with an overrated quarter back.
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I was speaking about real cowboys with big trucks, big hats, big buckles and tight jeans. 😉 But I like the Dallas Cowboys too. I’m a TexasGirl!
SG2~ where? I’m exiled in Houston. Here all the cowboys are fat and the tight jeans do them no favors.
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Well that’s too bad. The cowboys in my neck of the woods are fine!
SG2- LOL! City cowboys=fake. Lucky you to have the real thang.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Oh, oh … a devotee of that ever popular “basically”
LOL!
Court is back in session.
Mr. Doddington? that right? Mr. big and wide tie.
He was born and raised at the University of Florida.
😉
Is that why O’Liar’s joke about “Go Noles” was a flop? If he was born and raised at the University of Florida should have been “Go Gators”…. jus sayin….
Got back just in time!
Serina just took the French!
Like French just took Tom Owen? 🙂
Jury still out on that 🙂
I didn’t know she was fluent in French!
She needs to run for Congress. 🙂
Or governor of Florida. :)))
For a sec you had me looking for Serino in the hearing.
🙂 Serino, at trial, may end up offering us a dazzling display of double faults and defensive unforced errors.
Am hoping Fogen is shipped off to his just reward before the U.S. Open, but that’s not likely the way this hearing is dragging.
Another indication that the State doesn’t care too much about the voice forensics is that Manthei could have done a lot more to protect Reich for the purposes of the Frye hearing, as Dr. French had not so much questioned Reich’s methods, but dissented from his interpretation. French used the phrase “in my opinion” and said “I can’t hear any speech there.” So, on that point, we merely have the difference of interpretation one would expect from dueling expert witnesses at trial, not anything that to my NAL evaluation would meet the Frye standards for exclusion.
If I was on the prosecution team, I would want to call Dr. French as a State’s witness to testify that the screams could not have come from someone who was being suffocated and or experiencing head trauma.
That seems to be what is going on.
Back in court.
I am considering re-adopting my original prediction that the prosecution would begin to let the defense look like they could possibly pull an acquittal out of this fire, so that the pre-arranged plea bargain (for the defense, so they don’t have to face conviction which is nearly a sure thing, and for the prosecution, so they don’t have to reveal those parts of the evidence that will be so damning to the police department and the other officials in Sanford and in FDLE who were in on one or another piece of the cover-up) can be put in place without there being a massive outcry against the corrupt state or federal govt.
will the judge allow Dr. French to testify by Skype or whatever system, for trial or will the defense need to bring him here? Or has he already done his job?
Ay2z – Where you be? Aint heard from you in a while. You’ve been so vocal up until this witness. Any opinions?
Making a coffee run. Who wants some?
Have half cup still, thanks Rachael.
I’d love coffee. I like it black. TY!
black is good, and that’s not racial bias!! 😉 No sugar either, and again, that’s not a bias against anyone who is not sweet.
You guys are funny. I like my coffee the way I like my men – any way I can get it is fine with me. LOL
Rachael~ LOL! That got a loud guffaw from me!!
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“facial and pubic hair”? At a Frye hearing? #DEAD I done heard it all now! SMMFH
West is an idiot.
What’s up with West?
Dr. French cut Don West down on that one. Idiot West. Really, and Dr. French put it so well that he ‘his memory was that long’ (personal experience) and that the jurors, or triers of fact, would be able to decide that as well as he.
Don West had to get the sexual inuendos in there when he was off in another field of expertise.
LOVED the ‘did you hear anywhere on the 911 recording … “you are going to die tonight mother fucker!” ?
That would work well into a short video about battle of the experts.
Dr. French presents very well, and the jurors will like his accent. Especially over someone with a speech impediment.
And the idea of expert as someone from ‘away’, works here.
York is beautiful.
jurors deciding other things about the audio and about who was screaming, differences in ‘help help…’ vs ‘Ohp!’ as the final cryout or pleading, of a victim about to die. ‘Ohp’ by whatever final word, it was not cut short by hand on mouth, it was cut short by the barrel of the gun pushed. as GZ demonstrated so well, to be sure he was on target and going to miss his other hand, and the other hand was free to pull and hold the victim in place for the kill shot.
No hands of Trayvon on GZ’s mouth and or his nose as the shot was fired, remember what GZ did, his hands ‘up’ to show what Trayvon did as he sat back and said the observed ‘word’ ‘ohp!’
(note about the hands up, there is a difference from this gesture in GZ’s re-enactment of his version of events, where he does this twice, once for how Trayvon reacted, hands up and with hands slightly out and away from GZ’s body/head area and the other, where he illustrates himself putting hands up, with hands angled well in vs out, and towards his head, like a triangle shape.
Two different illustrations, one for himself, and one for Trayvon. Trayvon’s gesture as per GZ, did not appear to be putting hands on his head as under arrest or for police direction, just up and away from his body that shows no weapon, open hands, and a signal that he was not a threat. Clearly not a threat. )
As ks said above, Dr. French has put the kibosh on any claim that science can claim the screams are NOT Trayvon.
i have to say I don’t think the State is putting much stake in the audio experts to make their case. They didn’t bother to commission their own studies. Owen just rehashed what he had done for the Orlando Sentinal, and Reich stated he started researching the audio questions just out of his own interest (just like us!), and only later took a modest retainer from the Seattle Times to assist in prepping an article on his findings for that paper.
If all the voice ID stuff gets ruled out, this doesn’t particularly hurt the State’s case, as there is enough other evidence that the screamer is Trayvon, or at least that the screams could not have been uttered by someone getting his head bashed and/or his mouth covered with a hand.
Absolutely. If they can’t say it was NOT Trayvon then they can’t say it WAS GZ.
And along with what you say in your last line, there is the instantaneous stop once shot fired.
Did Dr. French use an unproven method to provide testimony, to be exact the use of the grad students methodology to determine the voice pitch of the screams, and then present it as fact? I generally agree with what you say, however in this case, I simply disagree with your analysis of what he did or said. He also damaged the defense allegation about the voice change in puberty by saying that generally the voice changes between 13 and 16 years old, but then he added quietly and sometimes later… Trayvon fell well into that category.. I do some what agree with you the state is not fighting this as hard as I would have expected, it leads me to think (boy is that a dangerous thing to do) that they have a full deck of aces up their sleeves!
I agree. But even if State’s experts do not meet the Frye Standard, they are still admissible under the “Pure opinion exception”. This is an expert’s opinion that is based on the expert’s personal experience and training. “While cloaked with the credibility of the expert, this testimony is analyzed by the jury as it analyzes any other personal opinion or factual testimony by a witness” – (Flanagan v. State, 625 So.2d 827, 828 (Fla. 1993).
So, if a PhD candidate developed a “new technique”, then HER “development” is “new and novel” and has not gained wide acceptance within the community? Would I have that correct?
Yet, this Dr. didn’t seem to have a problem using her new protocol of measurement, and submitting it in a forensic setting, in a court of law.
No, you would not necessarily have that correct.
Yes that’s the case until it’s tested and peer reviewed but, that’s beside the point here. Owen and Reich have been at their game forever. Nothing new or novel about what they do.
I guess I’m contrasting Dr. French’s assertions that Owen’s methodologies were not acceptable based on not having done test/retest reliability metrics vs. feeling there is nothing wrong with taking a PhD candidates new manner of measuring the hertz level of the screams, and submitting them to a court of law, despite them not having undergone the same manner of test/retest reliability requirements the he insists on for Owens looping and biometric analysis. That’s all. Seems kind of hypocritical to me, but maybe I’m contrasting apples and oranges.
This expert just claimed that the hidden speech unearthed by Owen and Reich are non-existent.
Yep and that was hilarious. Again this is not Fyre stuff which is moot since he’s already stated that their technologies are generally accepted. I’d love to see his findings as he is continually making broad categorical claims.
Gotcha!
@Malisha – you were all over that one. Nice!
This defense expert just claimed that there is no accepted methodology within the scientific community to determine someone’s age and that there is no relationship between voice and age. The screams of a child, a juvenile, a grown man/woman and a male/female senior are the same! Now, I am not an expert, but this sounds like nonsense.
He didn’t say that. He said that given a scream alone, an audio analyst cannot accurately determine the age or even the gender of the screamer.
The problem with that is that it also eliminates the defense and GZ’s claim of the voice being his. This Fyre hearing was a bad idea for the defense.
Exactly
If he can’t determine a male from a female voice I’m smh! And now I can’t believe anything he say from this point on. I can see if he was taking about babies.
he did not sure the word “accurately” or suggested that. he used the words “there is no corelation” between the sound of a scream and age.
typo
“he did not USE the word … (was meant. my hasty fingers keep messing stuff up)
you dont have to be exact to see the difference between a teen and an adult voice…..this guy does NOT know his stuff , he is a BS artist.
Neither am I but that sounds pretty ridiculous. It strikes me as way too broad a claim.
That sounds like Bullshit to me. Do he really expect us to believe that, in that case why do the male voice change so drastically when they go through puberty, if we all sound the same screaming or not. I’m LMAO.
He’s not saying that a person can’t do it, he’s saying that science and their methods and software can’t do it with a sample. Obviously a sample of any voice tells them nothing they can deduce from it, to say how old, what gender or anything else, because there are just too many variables. A woman can have a deep voice (Lauren Bacall?) a man can have a high pitched voice like a child or a woman. A sample will tell the scientist nothing, but of course it will tell friends and family much.
exactly what I said……
That is utter nonsense. An eight-year-old scream does not sound at ALL like an 80-year-old scream.
This part, about the word recognition, doesn’t go to the Frye question, but would be good rebuttal at trial.
oh my I cant wait til he gets crossed he just said any AGE ??????? this guy is a joke
He’s anything BUT a joke. He knows his stuff.
yea but that part where he said that when a person regardless of age you wouldn’t be able to determine the age of someone screamin for their life ??? I have a issue with that because surely a teen”s voice would sound different as well as a baby they de wouldn’t sound like a full grown adult … im not sayin we can pin point an actual age but we def can agree and say that sounds like a youth screaming
he just answered my question there is a difference in a teen not fully developed voice
I liked the “very, very variable” line. That’s as opposed to kinda variable, sorta variable, or notsa variable?
Goodmorning everyone ….
He is talking about something that did strike me as weak in Reich’s report. But Reich did have other things to say.
Uh, Don, why are you asking him about voice prints, when he just said Reich was not doing voice prints?
I hope Manthai was listening to that part…
me to
so now he says you cant compare handwriting samples?
aural sectrographic approach “I’m not entirely sure what that is”
Rough feature matching, he would not condone use of it in any circumstances.
Now on to Dr. Reich. (yes, he was listening yesterday, it seems)
This defense expert just said that the technology such as the one used by Owen is generally accepted within the wider scientific community. He is not sure of his methodology.
Bingo. That’s the end of the story as far as the Fyre hearing goes. But, as the Prof. said the defense is making a serious tactical error by continuing to argue weight instead of admissibility. .
@Searcher –
What happens AFTER a Frey hearing?
Does Judge Nelson “certify” or somehow approve of individual expert witnesses who testified at the Frey hearing – and discard others as unqualified?
Does she say all methodologies are acceptable or only some?
If she says all are OK, does she let the prosecution and defense pick their favorite expert(s) based on the performance they saw at the Frey hearing?
Can either side have MORE than one expert?
How confusing will this all be to the jury?
Has the prosecution paid any of their experts so far? Is there a standard prosecution rate or do experts charge their standard fee no matter whom they work for?
Please enlighten me.
Thanks!
I believe it’s the METHODOLOGIES and the scientific approaches used that are approved or disapproved in a Frye hearing, not the individual experts. THOSE must go through a “voir dire” at trial to see if they can qualify. Judge’s call on that. Depends mostly on their curriculum vitaes and if they have done the kind of work they are testifying about. Then it’s up to the jury whom to believe and what weight to give their testimony.
@Malisha –
That’s a great help; thanks, Malisha! So — could the prosecution have MORE than one methodology, represented by more than one expert witness? (Same for the defense, although it’s hard to see how a couple of those guys would qualify.)
What sayest thou?
This would certainly exclude the highly paid Doddington.
I think judges make rulings on not having “cumulative” stuff but if it is not cumulative, I don’t think there is any exclusion of more than one witness using more than one technique. There was a criminal trial of a Mafia Boss in NY where 13 psychiatrists testified for the defense that the guy was crazy (and a slew of lay witnesses said the same in different ways) and then one forensic psychiatrist, one forensic psychoneurologist and one more expert (forgot his particular specialty) testified for the prosecution and the guy got convicted. NOT “not guilty by reason of insanity” either. GUILTY. You can have different forensic expert witnesses do different kinds of things, too.
Thank you for that info, Malisha.
Very comforting.
We are about to hear “the whole truth ….. “
He has just said the technology applied (that sort of technology) is accepted by their wider scientific community.
Looping issue– wait a second, this expert said it doesn’t matter how long screaming is, because the same screams over a half hour, would be no better than a short sample.
(prev post– ‘that sort of technology’ was ref to Owen’s technology– acceptable)
Ok, I think the state will have some good lines of inquiry here. This is an academic, and it sounds as if his work emphasizes clean recordings. Sounds as if he uses clean prepared samples from a ‘criminal’ (as his term) in lab perfect situations.
Does he ever test ‘in situe’ evidence, not pristine and prepared?
He’s talking about perfect circumstances of recording and perfect exemplars.
Apples and oranges. Lab vs a real life situation.
“wouldn’t do that in my lab’.
ay2z~ then his opinion sounds rather useless. Real life is messy and we must make decisions based on our best work.
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Bingo. Appropriate controls are required.
This defense expert is basically saying that “screams” are useless material for comparison purposes, regardless of whether the screamer screamed for half an hour or more. What say our experts here? Whonoze?
Now that’s a novel approach.
“Screams are irrelevant”?
So all we have is, “I’m begging you” and “Get off Get off” and the lack of “You’re gonna die tonight MF”? OK.
Am looking forward to cross … if it happens in our lifetime.
Owen is dead meat. While the opinion you mention would seem to rule out Reich’s ID as well, I think Reich could have a counter-argument based on the specifics of the case, since he did have samples of both TM and GZ, and could identify (he claims) phonemes in the screaming.
I disagree… Owen in person on the stand, should he be called, will be able to hold his own.
amazing you can post that…owen has accurate information on the voices and you call him dead meat……the only way he is dead meat is if the entire trial is a FARCE!
I can’t even believe any person will think this is true, no harm but maybe a man will. I am a mom of 4 and I know each of my children cries, screams, yell even mumble voices. Mothers know their children cries, you can put them in a room with 3 babies that are crying if your baby is crying you know it right away. This isn’t knew to mothers. if A kid calls or cries out mom in the middle of the mall we listen twice and we know if that’s our baby even in a noisy mall we can identify their cry, so I can’t believe that a cry can’t be identified.
so yeah, I can say I can tell my kids yells, giggles and whines. but if we are for example in a mall and there’s lots of voices, and a kids shouts *MOM*, I might need to hear it 2x before i’m postitive. but the 1st shout would get my attention. which would force me to stop and wait for the second shout..
and as I read your post, I thought for these scream identification issues, the state needs women/mothers on the jury. they will believe Sybrina 100% that it’s her kid she hears.. where as an average man won’t just take Sybrina’s word for it unless they have a specific memory of recognizing their own child’s voice sometime.
but I also think there should be men between the ages of 18-29 on the jury because this is their generation. as in these people are growing up in the days of same sex marriage and all kinds of tolerance issues. I just think they wont be so apt to believe their peer would be the giant black gansta killer zimmy is trying to say he was!
shannoninmiami~ Maybe females are more attuned to voices. I can tell my STUDENTS’ voices when my head is turned. It amazes them. But voices ARE generally unique. Shrieks, not so much. BUT you can be damned sure there is a huge difference between young voice shrieking and an adult male shrieking! And THAT IS ALL YOU NEED for this case!
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listen to a kid’s screams and an adult woman’s scream. they are very different in the high pitch. even though some women have that really high pitch * horror movie * scream, you still can tell the difference between a kid and adult.
i know Trayvon wasn’t a kindergartner, but his screams weren’t just screams, he was screaming words. and that’s what the defense keeps forgetting, it’s not just the sound it’s the words too.
Searching Mind~ Ok. Screams I guess are not as individual as voices. Shrieks do all sound the same. Is THAT what is being said?
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Be prepared for a 2hr questioning per expert by Mr. West. That’s 6hrs of torture for viewers.
We will just have to do our knitting project as we listen in order to make listening easier. 🙂
Software is the topic now– for ‘axcoustics’ investigation.
(accoustics)
Correct, ay2z….for the purpose of this pre-hearing.
This is more of what defense will try to do during actually court proceedings.
This expert is testifying to counter the state, and so far, sounds effective.
I’m waiting for him to talk about immature changing male voices of a juvenile compared to a mature man.
A guy with a Brit accent reading a Burger King menu will inevitably sound more erudite than a dude from Jersey delivering expert info.
How is an “extrapolation” of a study that is not on point being presented as if it’s a study “addressing” this issue. It’s not.
I suspect this guy will fry (or should I say Frye?) Tom Owen.
I agree.
They are careful not to designate what an absolute minimum duration is required.
according to this voice analyst today
Could we get a court order to force Don West to take some Ritalin or something (or get him off the Qualudes) to ‘speed’ him up? 🙂
Lol! I haven’t heard the word qualudes since the 80s
I see Fogen is not sitting in court today with his bullet proof vest on. What happened to the fear for his life meme.
Maybe Fogen realized the vest …
A) makes him looking like a bigger dunce than he already is?
B) won’t close after last night’s pigout?
That’s what I said to myself, “what happened to the vest, is is life only in danger on weekdays.”
Right, on casual Saturdays there’s far less fear in the air …
Ahahahahahaha, casual Saturdays!
Thinking about the witnesses today. If the defense have an expert to say it was GZ, yelling or help, how then in the same breathe say that technology is unreliable.
I haven’t heard of any expert’s opinion that it was fogen, sent to the prosecution in reciprocal discovery. I don’t think they have one who will say it’s fogen. I believe they just have rebuttal experts to say that the opinions of the prosecution’s experts should not be admitted. (IMO)
Showtime is 9:30, folks.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/hearing-held-in-george-zimmerman-murder-case/-/1637132/20436614/-/72pit2z/-/index.html
Court resume today? If I’m not mistaken it does anyone know
Sybrina Fulton has been losing a lot of weight according to Ben Crump. He worries about her state of mind.
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/06/07/whats-behind-george-zimmermans-weight-gain
[SHE] Ain’t Heavy, [SHE’S OUR SISTER]
.
The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows where
But [WE’RE] strong
Strong enough to carry [HER]
If [WE’RE] laden at all
[WE’RE} laden with sadness
That everyone’s heart Isn’t filled with [SUPPORT]
Of love for [SYBRINA]
.
.
Beautiful. As beautiful now as it was back then. So apropos, YAHTC.
YAHTC~ I wish I could do more than merely send her a prayer and thoughts for strength.
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Hart enough under normal proceedings to go through this, but in public, with what Mark O’Mara and Donald West and the defendant and his family, have and are doing for no more than character assasination to play their games, it’s just wrong on some many levels.
I hope they have the resources for support in place, and I hope that the anticipation of trial ahead, will be over.
She has a new daily job, starting Monday.
Well who cares what’s causing Fogen’s weight gain? As a person I do not care about him at all. On the other hand it is not difficult to figure out that if you’re living a normal life and suddenly some racist bigot kills your kid and then you have to spend a year and a half defending the memory of your son, who did no wrong and was murdered in cold blood, you might feel stressed, depressed, upset, anxious, morose, etc. and you might lose sleep and you might lose your appetite. Again, it is not rocket science.
Fogen should live out the rest of his life like the useless piece of human trash that his family made him and glorified. Pew.
Sybrina has lost weight. Grief will do that. I pray for her.
COMMON SENSE
“They agreed that the defendant did not utter the death shriek and indeed the circumstantial evidence independently confirms their opinions.”
That’s an excellent one sentence summary of the case, Professor. Out of the constellation and network of the facts of this case a system of logic emerged and took a life of its own. When jurors within this system and apply its logic, GZ’s will be on his way to Armageddon. In this case you basically have science and human common sense united in making an irrefutable case: (“A”) the person beseeching the other with the words: “get off, get off of me”, “I am begging you”, etc. cannot at the same indivisible moment be (“B”) the assailant. The assailant (“B”) cannot at the same indivisible moment be uttering the death shriek (“A”). “A” and “B” are mutually exclusive (unless one choses to burry his/her head in the sand). GZ according to GZ did not utter those pleading words unearthed from the 911-tape. By necessity, GZ made GZ the assailant by GZ’s own words. GZ is “A” and cannot at the same indivisible moment be “B”.
We (and the jury) don’t- and won’t understand squat of the science and the technology applied in this case (I certainly dont). Bet we (and the jury) don’t- and won’t need voice comparison experts to make a determination as to who was uttering the death shriek. The logic of the system tells it all: GZ shot and killed a juvenile while the juvenile begged for his life.
Typo
When jurors THINK within this system and apply its logic, … (was meant).
however, i am very depressed after the kelly soo park acquittal.. because it shows that juries, even in los angeles, can be idiots.
GZ is “B” and cannot at the same indivisible moment be “A”. (stupid me)
If Zimmerman really did utter those cries, surely the best way his lawyers could prove it would be to get him to replicate them.
Forget the pathetic voice exemplar recordings of last year; at that stage he never expected to get to the weekend before his murder trial.
It really is very simple. If Zimmerman made those cries, he should be able to replicate them.
That’s exactly what I say, put him on the stand and make him scream. I think BDLR will do exactly that on rebuttal, I hope this is what they will close out with since they get to have the last word at trial.
I would not try that. Professor? Opinion on that. I think it’s too “Perry Masonish” and besides it’s reminiscent of the Marsha Clark glove scene. Fogen might be practicing that scream with a voice coach as we speak.
After trial, he can practice at the penitentiary … am sure some of his fellow prisoners will give him incentive to show his skills.
A very goood point GZ’s apologists refuse to see, Zhickel. Even GZ himself is telling these apologists: ‘look guys, “that doesn’t even sound like me”, but they won’t listen. If all the prophets return back to earth today and tell them it ain’t GZ screaming, they will call them fake. That’s the nature of the apologist: deny, deny, deny. Excuse, rationalize, muddy the waters , excuse, rationalize, muddy the waters, ad infinitum.
@smokeegyrl =
Re: “My question is this. Why did George Zimmerman call NEN instead of 911? Did he think that seeing TM was not an emergency… then why did he follow TM with a gun? Was it because 911 wasn’t called because that would’ve sent the SPD to respond to the location in an emergency timely manner? Calling NEN gave him enough time to not let one more a$$hole get away? ya think!”
Answer: Yes, 1,000%
I agree. HE wanted to bring in HIS “suspect.” HE wanted to confront the “suspect” and then be forced to use his gun so he could prove to HOA that he was important and had to patrol, while armed, for their safety. HE staged this thing. Remember:
“I was running out of time.”
This was going to be HIS way of promoting himself into his dream job.
Sadly, for all in involved…that ‘dream job’ has turned into a never ending nightmare!
@Malisha,
Re: ““I was running out of time.” This was going to be HIS way of promoting himself into his dream job.
Malisha, fogen’s “I was running out of time” was one of the most chilling statements I heard. Then when I read the report: “These assholes, they always get away (but not on me)” the addition of “but not on me” anchored my judgment as to his intent.
He was running out of time to serve his own interests …
We know what those interests were.
Yep, he could only be running out of time, to complete something that he could not do, after the police got there.
P-Mom- not to be a wet blanket, but here goes. During the Hannity interview, it made sense that he said he was running out of time. He was explaining the (imaginary) head bashing and the implication was he was running out of time to DO something to save himself. It doesn’t sound sinister , but just explaining his need to shoot AT THAT TIME.
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@Cielo –
That’s a perspective I had not considered – that gz said he “was running out of time” because he expected he would be incapacitated or killed by Trayvon through the “bashing” so he had to strike now with the gun or he wouldn’t be ABLE to do it later? Zat it?
Hmmm. Never looked at it that way. He wasn’t running out of time to shoot Trayvon in the shoulder, or leg, or wasn’t running out of time to say “STOP IT! THIS GUN IS LOADED!”
I would never dispute you Cielo, but I WOULD dispute GZ – I think, if that’s what he wanted us to believe he meant, it’s just more self-serving drama.
I still think the killing was a combo of rage, and cover-his-ass.
Nobody could fail to respond to that child’s cries, except an enraged, self-serving psychopath.
But I’m glad you brought up this alterative, Cielo. We’re here to examine all this. I’ll keep mulling it over. And — thanks.
Now these supporters of Fagan state that 911 call are fake and were recorded over. How dumb is that?
My reply to them is this: I was a NEN dispatcher… and the E911 system/program they have doesn’t allow you to tape over a previous recording because it transfers into a database. You can’t even delete it… you can cancel a call but that will record to the database as well… All calls stay intact. It is set up that way. Every 24 hours is recorded with the date change through the database automatically.
My question is this. Why did George Zimmerman call NEN instead of 911? Did he think that seeing TM was not an emergency… then why did he follow TM with a gun? Was it because 911 wasn’t called because that would’ve sent the SPD to respond to the location in an emergency timely manner? Calling NEN gave him enough time to not let one more a$$hole get away? ya think!
My guess is that he had been ordered to quit calling 911 with his petty little bullshit complaints.
Right, even the dude seemed not phased by this call of someone walking in the rain! Silly ass man.
I think the direction from the NW or the police was to call NE unless there was a crime in progress or already committed. fogen knew the difference. He didn’t have an emergency. He didn’t have a crime in progress.
well he DID have a crime in progress. Only he was the one committing it. The worried innocent act of calling NEN was part of the cover-up.
That is what I was thinking. sheesh.
I wonder whats going on with the killer and his wife. Every hearing he wore his wedding ring proudly up until 04/30. 06/06 and 06/07 no ring! Trouble in paradise? 🙄
Youdon’tsay~ I’d say gaining 100+ pounds will outsize any wedding band.
________________________________
Remember this? Could it be that on the eve of trial, that there has been some movement in this NBC case? Could NBC have decided to quietly make this go away before a trial decision comes down and racism used in trial by the defense, rears its ugly head?
Could the defense now have deep pockets more than the fundraising amounts show? To keep GZ happy for his legal needs and anything for future?
Just a thought….. maybe they defense can bring in some big guns to their defense table to handle the experts, for example?
Well, one thing about it is that those screams are not edited.
No, it’s not possible that NBC gave GZ as much as one red cent.
Good!
NBC is not gonna give him a single red fucking cent
It’s a 30 billion dollar company and they did not do anything wrong at all
It’s also a slander civil suit, which is hard to prove in the US of A on top of the fact that the suit is frivolous as hell
They did not alter any of Fogen’s statements to make them different
On top, he’s some douchebag that murdered a kid so as a company they will fight him on principle alone
and
NBC’s lawyers would wipe the floor with Omara
Good again!
(thanks Whonose and Jun, for the reality check on that one! O’Reilly and his friends JC and CB would probably all move on over to HLN if that happened!! (snark!)
ay2z~ I don’t see NBC budging an inch for gz, nor paying a dime. They have no reason to settle and every reason to defend their corporate name. Nope, no green horses jingling in at the last minute to save the day.
________________________________
NeJame’s take on picking the jury. Fully expect GZ will take the stand…. NeJame expects.
Maybe the only chance fogen has to contradict the forensics in audio, is to get on the stand and say ‘didn’t sy that’ and try to win the jury over with his charm. (yikes)
Wrong video– here’s PIcking Jury for gz trial
Could what the audio experts do NOT hear, be ias important?
We have heard no expert hear “You are going to die tonight mother fucker”, have we?
Unless defense attorneys can spin some of the state’s audio expert ‘s opinion into what fogen claims in his self-serving story.
The defense plan to have it’s experts offer any of these statements present in audio? They offer no opinion of experts, unless tomorrows line up have submitted opinion, or will in the near future. (now that there is more money in the pot)
Last year’s NeJame interview.
Their expert is robbie the racist
I was going to say LOL, but junior is more disgusting than anything. He’s been their expert all along. Those boys sure have some arrogance and mis-placed self-confidence.
Granny, that ABC article you linked to has a very misleading headline. It isn’t that ‘George Zimmerman’s Lawyers Want Tape Played in Court’; they know it will be. It’s that they want to exclude expert testimony about whose voice is screaming, and what words might have been exchanged between the owners of the TWO voices on that tape.
Thanks for sharing your feelings about your grandson. I have two granddaughters and a grandson who wear hoodies, and so do their parents and grandfather. I’m the only person in the family who doesn’t, because it makes me feel claustrophobic, but since Trayvon’s death, I’ve been wearing the hood on my rainjacket up. Always, whether it’s raining or not. But we all look white (although way, way back, there’s a slave grandmother on my husband’s side, and some Native American ancestors in my family and my son-in-laws), so nobody gives it a second thought.
Hoodies up for Trayvon, your grandson, and you!
elcymoo, I know that it’s misleading and that GZ’s lawyers do not want that tape played in the trial, but if you read a little further down the article that’s when ABC makes that claim. ABC is trying to poison the jury too that’s what I getting at.
BTW, my family is multi-racial. Indian, Native American Indian, Hispanic, Polynesian, white, black, Asian, Egyptian, and African. If you were to attend one of our family reunions (we have one coming up next year) you would think you were at a United Nations meetings. In fact, when we’re at the hotel, people are always asking us the name of our organization. 🙂
@Granny, that’s ‘s a big ditto for me as well, when it comes to the makeup of my family. We have a huge family reunion every year.
What some people in this country are doing, is overlooking the FACT that, Fogen started as well as ended this entire thing. They are the ones who injected race into this case, along with Fogen’s family, especially Robbie The Racist.
This case is about Fogen killing an innocent kid who I may add, was minding his own damn business and doing nothing wrong. Had he been doing the same, he wouldn’t be facing a murder trial today.
He brought ALL of this on himself and, it’s time to pay the piper. If you don’t want to do the TIME, then don’t commit the CRIME! He is no damn better than any other MURDERER in this country. Some truly innocent people have actually been put to death, for murders they didn’t commit. Here we have this one here who killed a kid and, he is now trying to LIE his way out of doing prison time. THIS IS NO SELF DEFENSE CASE, IT’S MURDER PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
One more thing before I call it a night.
@professor – if it is found that Franke Taaffe was talking to Zimmerman right before he called NEN line, and he was talking to texting Fogen during his persuit, can the state add him as a co-defendant as an accessory to the crime. Someone was in that truck with Zimmerman and someone was helping him stalk Trayvon. I think it was both Taaffe and Shellie.
You know – I had been wondering about that (both of them). We have discussed and debated the 3rd party theory for a while now and there have always been folks with different opinions on the subject. I, myself, have gone back and forth – I think they might have been there, but I can’t put my finger on any hard evidence to support it.
But, now that you’ve said this, I’m going to put something out here that’s been bugging me –
What if the voice that DeeDee heard was not fogen. He does have somewhat of a “light” voice, and deep voiced authoritarian is not what I think of when I think of fogen. It’s not even how he thinks of himself, based on what he said to Singleton. And didn’t W11 say it sounded “loud and belligerent”. What if that deep voiced, belligerent “old man” saying “what are you doing here?” was Taaffe? What if the reason those witnesses haven’t come forth with the truth is not that they’re scared of fogen who they will probably never see again, but that they’re scared of Taaffe, who is still running loose in their neighborhood? I know some folks think he’s the “white shirt” one of the witnesses saw.
I know there’s no real evidence for it. The only reason it popped into my head is I was listening to DeeDee’s audio statement again, just before I saw Papa’s “swaying” video and it kind of clicked, and I haven’t been able to shake it loose. I guess we’ll know more when the phone records come out…
Don’t misunderstand me – I still believe fogen did the stalking, grabbing, holding, murdering and none of the screaming. Just so I’m clear.
@Nef05 You’re not alone in your suspicions about Drunk Taffee being the “what are you doing around here” old man.
Though Trayvon was barely 17, I don’t think he would’ve considered fogen at 28 to be an “old man”. I’m glad you brought this up. Even Trent Sawyer made mention of this possibility on one of his excellent and hillarious videos.
He also puts out there that fogen may have cut through one of the Jon’s apartments to sneek up on Trayvon after he thought he’s lost him. Hmmnnn.
HOODIES UP
I think that if there were more folks in the car with Fogen, Trayvon would have alerted Dee Dee of that. For some reason, I think that a car full of folks would have scared him into running long before he did.
I also think that Fogen did not have that jacket on at the time so his light grey shirt looked white in the darkness. I also remember a witness, a member of the HOA saying that when she seen Fogen he was sitting in the back of the police car glaring at her wearing a white shirt. This would also explain why there was no gunshot residue on the jacket. The jacket was as clean as a whistle. It would have been nice to see pictures prior to 2.26.12 of him wearing that same jacket, but I guess I am asking for too much.
Agreed Nef, the phone records as well as text messages that matter most in this case is Fogens. I don’t give a fat rat’s ass about what’s on Trayvon’s phone. The defense has been going on about what’s on the phone of a 17 year old kid. But, they’re only following orders of their fellow racist who want to see, this murderer of a black kid go free. SMDH
Dee-Dee’s “old man” voice reference seemed amusing when we thought she wastalking about hearing 28-year-old Fogen …. Could well be Dee-Dee’s ear truly was on target.
Why hasn’t the defense tried to corroborate gz’s story that he first saw Trayvon at Frank Taaffe’s house on RVC?
Could not the defense have asked their client just which resident was backing up his/her car on RVC which caused GZ to have to slow down before driving around Trayvon and then parking at the clubhouse?
Why didn’t the defense interview this resident that was “backing up” his car?
Serino interview – 2/29/12:
If the defense team had found and interviewed this resident, the resident could have confirmed gz’s assertion and said, “Yes, I indeed WAS backing up my car at that time.”
Remember Fogenquote: “I know all the residents.” So who was driving the car, Fogen?
Wasn’t George estranged from his family before this happened?
He hadn’t talked to them in 10 years….Robbie the Racist said it many times last year. On Anderson Cooper, after this long bs story Cooper said have you talked with him since the shooting and he said no, I haven’t talked to him for about 10 years and I thought Cooper was gonna croak……commercial time !!
The family left fogen along for molesting his cousin,and the family did not like that Jr. was gay. So while he was on the news saying people was bashing him for being gay he have to remember his own family wanted him out there life for being gay. Dr.Phill could not help this family,they are gone in head.
This is a theory of mine
I think there are skeletons in the Fogen family closet, which I am guessing, Fogen threatened to drop, unless the Fogens back him in court and bail him out
[Comment deleted as offensive and unnecessary]
this is ugly and unnecessary.
@Evokid17 –
Re: “whatever verbiage you choose”
I chose none of that verbiage, Evokid.
Please do not repeat any of it.
We are here to seek justice for the crime of 2/26/12.
No filth, please.
Faux Mccoy~ thank you. I agree.
________________________________
evokid~ I’m gay. I didn’t appreciate the hatefullness of your post. Please consider the WIDE spectrum of folks who post here and refrain from using any more gay attacks or slang terms for body parts. Thank you.
________________________________
@Evokid,
PLEASE, STOP!
ABC is claiming to have hired a forensic’s expert who claims that the voice heard screaming is Zimmerman. Smh!
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-lawyers-911-call-played-court/story?id=19339871
It saddens me how far some people will go to absolve a murderer from killing an innocent child. Just because the kid happens to be black. All human being’s blood is blue and bleeds red. It must be the money. However, I believe that it is their strong desire to cling to that old stereotype of dangerous black males. This case has made me see just how far some people are willing to go to vilify a black victim, blame the victim, and sling mud to save a black child’s killer.
Professor Letterman you’ve been on target in everything you’ve explained us so far. You are gonna be blessed for it. Yep, your blessing are surely gonna rain down from up above. You can count on that. I’ve been here from day one when you first began analyzing this case. Although, I don’t post comments like I used to, but I’m sure you understand that I have a lot on my plate right now that I’m dealing with. I never go to bed without reading what you post or the comments. Never do I miss doing that.
I have sons,grandsons, nephews, and cousins. It’s not a day that goes by that I’m not asking the Lord to keep them safe from all hurt, harm and danger and especially from people like GZ. My sons and grandsons are not thugs, nor does that lifestyle interest them. They’re positive goal orientated males who happen to be black. My grandsons are honor roll students. The oldest one was a gifted child who was in that gate program for gifted kids when he attended school. He is an adult now and works.
One of my grandsons loves Basketball. He told his mother that when he makes the NBA that he is buying her and his dad a house next to Jayz. He might just do that too because he plays against older and young adults. He’s only eleven, but he can play basketball and is extremely good at it. There is not a day that goes by that he does not practice day and night. That’s his dream. The reason I’m telling you more about him is because that picture of Trayvon with the hoodie on is my grandson’s spitting image. Yep, they could pass for identical twins. Every time I look at that picture I see my grandson’s twin, so it’s hard for me to explain the emotions that I feel. I’m sure you understand. My grandsons wear hoodies, so do I.
Funny – my son is a little short guy – but he was the image of Trayvon too. And he didn’t do things any different than the other kids did other than be black and I saw how it was. Yeah.
sigh
@granny — wishing you and your family the best during this trying time.
peace be with you
Granny, did you post the wrong article? I did not read that ABC hired an expert to assign the screams to GZ.
I don’t see that in the linked article, either.
I was wondering why everyone kept saying that they did not see what I said about ABC hiring a forensics expert, so I click on the link and went back and looked. That’s not the same article I read yesterday. The one I read was two pages and the part about them hiring an expert was on the second page. I know what I saw and wouldn’t make something like that up. No sirree!
I read it. I can’t remember the expert’s name, but it said that ABC had hired a forensic expert and he said that it was GZ screaming. Nevertheless, we know that those screams were Trayvon’s and I am not going to take back what I said about ABC is trying to poison the jury pool because I know without a doubt what I read yesterday.
That expert is interested in going on TV but he is not interested in getting on the stand and swearing an oath and being deposed and writing a report? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
Remember, ABC was the news source that “obtained” the picture of Fogen on the cell phone with a bloody head (and the print of the side of a metal gun) minutes after he killed Trayvon Martin. Thanks, ABC. Change your name to “Anything But Conscientious.”
Excellent point. I remember ABC was the first with the close up of his head. That was released after the police station video didn’t have the desired effect. No blood or injury was seen, and we all saw him jump out of the car and casually walk in. Not as if he had just killed someone in a fight for his life. ABC is affiliated with Hannity’s radio show in some way.
Hi Granny. I missed you. Hope all is well.
Papa Z said Fogen was withing an inch of his life from the beating Trayvon put on him. Looking at that police video I hope the jurors don’t believe that.
Ok I’m going to put it out there, Floridians do your duty and put this killler behind bars. Don’t let racism or stupidity cloud your judgment.
Claims of being beaten within an inch of his life …. yet strolling around the Sanford cop shop shortly thereafter as if owned the place. Sitting in the interview room chatting it up with Singleton , lamenting this , lamenting that, shmoozing, shmoozing, schmoozing as if he’d only been in a fistfight..
Even his question to Singleton asking if she’d ever had to shoot someone, doesn’t indicate he was shrewd enough to understand he’d murdered an unarmed kid ….. This was no mere shooting, and, no, it wasn’t gonna just blow over.
When he said “my wife is a mess” I had to ask, what’s she been like since the murder…..
Forget about what he was doing in the station later, out at the scene he was talking to Jon about ammo and guns and stooping/kneeling to have his picture taken while he was on the phone with his gun still in his hand. Asking if he was bleeding? Who would care if they’d just escaped a close brush with death? Not to mention having killed a person, they’d be a psychological mess for quite sometime to come.
“My relative also said that he knows for a fact they were not aware that he was fired from the police department.”
My son’s god father trains them !! You got it right !!
“I hope there was damning evidence on Fogen’s phone.”
I know for fact his, and a few others, phone records are more damning than the 911 calls. You got it right !!
“I also hope Papa and Mama Zim lied during their depo.”
That’s a given….keep going..
These witnesses the defense wanted behind screens, bet they are the Z family members who have not shown faces in public before.
That could be, but we know what all of them look like other them Mommy……Maybe it’s all of those black kids he mentored !!!!!
And The Moron Man said they are going to have to move from their residences when he’s acquitted…..Really Markster !!
I wonder why the parent set up a website begging for money. Aren’t they retired and receive a pension.
The Zimmerman has used this as a means to get rich. I bet folks found a way to donate money without going through those websites to the parents and Fogen.
I believe if Shellie tell the truth or say anything against Fogen that family is going to disown her. Also, when he if found guilty they may just do that anyway.
That’s what I thought in the beginning, but O’Mara made it sould like the witnesses might be members of the gated community, with his talk about their residences. My question is why any residents would not have come forward in the days right after the shooting, since the case hadn’t attracted national attention then, and no threats had been made to anyone?
Woow – “I believe if Shellie tell the truth or say anything against Fogen that family is going to disown her. Also, when he if found guilty they may just do that anyway.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing! LOL.
Shellie better tell the truth because that family is going to throw her under the bus no matter what. Damned if she do damned if she don’t.
Yup.
@elcymoo
Good question. My question is, why haven’t we seen these witnesses’ statements in reciprocal discovery?
I believe the residents are rebuttal witnesses. We’ll hear from them if Fogen has the nerve to put on his “violent thug attacked me” defense. It will not be pretty but I will enjoy every minute of it. Yeah yeah yeah.
I wondered about his sister too. Madame Zimmerman?
I guess Z senior does not sit does not sit next to his dad with his impenetrable expression may happen for the same reason. Junior is the public family face.
I reviewed the notice of depositions filed by prosecutors. They deposed 26 people. From previous threads (may have been another blog) MOM and W did not order deposition transcripts and this was as of last hearing. How do they plan to cross examine the witnesses if they have not taken the time to review the transcripts.
Also, I scanned over the defense exhibits. What they filed is a bunch of garbage that is not relevant. MOM has wasted an entire year. He has not taken the time to prepare a case because he so arrogantly thought he could sway public opinion and get Fogen off like Kasey Anthony.
There are a few things I am waiting to see:
1. What Shellie has to say. I hope she is not dumb enough to lie under oath. She should have learned her lesson from the bond hearing.
2. Osterman gave a different account than what Zimmerman initially told. I wonder if this idiot is going to lie. I have a relative who is an Air Marshall who actually knows Osterman and he said that the only way he was hired as a Marshall is because at the time he applied they were not doing the extensive background checks and a lot of guys got through. When that department was first created ICE was concentrated on hiring police officer and ex military. Osterman could still lose his job if they find out he interferred. My relative also said that he knows for a fact they were not aware that he was fired from the police department.
3. The witness who said he saw Travon giving Fogen a MMA beat down; wonder if he will repeat that on the stand.
4. The witnesses that said officers corrected their version of events by saying no it was Zimmerman screaming. I hope they are asked this on the stand to bring attention to the officers and how they tried to cover this up.
5. I read on another site that ZimmermanSr. is the god father to Wolfinger’s son. I wonder if Wolfinger will testify?
6. I hope there was damning evidence on Fogen’s phone.
7. I also hope Papa and Mama Zim lied during their depo.
8. I also hope that any witness that knowling lies or gave false statements are held accountable.
9. Finally, Frank Taaffe and the other reporter friend. I can’t wait to see them on the stand.
MOM and company look like fool by keep trying to say black will riot and Zimmerman’s life is in danger. The new black panther party put a bounty on his head. I finally read one of those flyers and it did not advocate killing Zimmerman but to make a citizens arrest.
I hope MOM is shunned in the legal community and is labeled a racist for taking advice from those racist bastards that like to play in trees.
Osterman said on national tv, Dr. Phil show, “but I won’t lie for him” before he went into a song and dance about his ethics and code of honor yadda yadda.
The witness who said MMA, retracted his MMA statement long long ago, never saw any beating, and assumed the person saying help help was GZ because he assumed GZ was on the bottom and assumed any person on the bottom would be calling for help.
The MMA story was gone, but MOM made use of it every time he could.
Phone records could play an interesting part.
I remember Osterman saying, in essence, that he would Die for Zimmerman but he wouldn’t lie for him. I thought it was so puzzling that he would have such an exaggerated kinship with this man that he would die for him… They seem bonded like military men who have been in horrible situations together but this is not the case with those two men. but now I think Osterman is in denial due to guilt, and needs to overcompensate His allegiance to George, because in fact he is the who taught George all he knows about weapons. he picked out that Crappy little gun with no safety . he probably is the ‘cop’ who told George to get a gun in response to being frightened by a neighbors dog (if that ever happened) and I believe strongly that he helped Zimmerman craft his story. They both just thought it would all blow over.
Lol!! —>
“9. Finally, Frank Taaffe and the other reporter friend. I can’t wait to see them on the stand”
Hope he doesn’t try the lines on Judge Nelson he used on Jane V Mitchell and Nancy Grace!!
He better go on the wagon starting now, so he doesn’t forget and think he’s on another woman host’s talk show instead of in court.
I think the all think this is a TV show. This is all one big show to them. They are gonna be in for a very rude awakening.
Good post Woow and I agree with most of what you have written.
I’d question this one:
5. I read on another site that ZimmermanSr. is the god father to Wolfinger’s son. I wonder if Wolfinger will testify?
I think you will find that there is a lot of speculation about a previous relationship between Zimmerman Sr. and Wolfinger. There may be but so far, to my knowledge there has been absolutely no proof that they ever met in the army, attended the same church or have a family connection.
That’s not saying one doesn’t exist but it’s best to be sure of your facts.
zhickel I was not stating a fact merely asking a question. There are a lot of rumors and I do not want to me one spreading them.
zhickel, good to see you back. At least I have not noticed you for quite some time. I absolutely agree. Everything is possible but I think so far there is no evidence for it.
The last few points in your post, Woow!, illustrates there was a concerted conspiracy to cover this up.
IMO, this was a lynching; post-Jim Crow style.
Rev Al has said that Jim Crow was replaced by “James Crow, Esq.”
Wonder how old Wolfie’s son is and what he does for a living.
Pffft, Jeralyn Merritt thinks Trayvon’s voice is deep (sounded pretty medium to me) and therefore the screamin on the 911 call is Fogen’s. Jeralyn, we know you’re a defense attorney and want high-profile clients, but please stop drinking the Treeper kool-aide . . .
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/6/7/13316/31847/crimenews/George-Zimmerman-Hearing-June-7th
I think he was putting on a deep voice for the ‘ooooo’, not a natural speaking voice, but having fun. Lower than speaking for sure.
You know, I heard SO many times at that refuse holding outhouse that “he had a low voice just like his dad” well that voice didn’t sound low to me AT ALL. It did when making that sound, but when he spoke, I was shocked. It pictured it coming outa some short little kid not a big almost 17 year old young man. I would never have expected him to sound like that and on LLMPapa’s video where he matches it up with the 911 call it is sooooo eerie
Always possible that there is more….
Jeralyn has made herself into something weird for this case. Now she makes herself into an expert in audiology. I think she will need professional help if her boy is convicted. I sure hope she doesn’t go to one of those voodoo doctors who tells her to “treat yourself kindly.” She needs someone to say, “Girl, you done got yourself over-enmeshed with this phantom hero; you need to step out of that sh!t NOW.”
I can help with that – SLAP!
My mind seems to wonder at times ,but please forgive me for this observation , but didn’t oj wear the same color suit?
I wish I had a way to cut this video down to about 45 seconds or so, just for the intro question of Maher.
We are on the weekend eve of trial, and this was made a year ago March, and Maher’s question is still relevant as ever, and the answer has not changed (except for the bond hearing deceptions of a potted plant and his sister and wife).
Where’s your cumberbund! yeah, no shit. smh
Makes me happy that he worked at Princeton and I got to meet him a few times. Go Van Jones, yes, our little black boys must wear tuxes before they go outside!
oops, I started a reply to you then got sidetracked. And posted the Maher vid in the wrong slot.
Don’t remember about OJ, but bet someone is lending a Big and Tall jacket with hints to get him out of that ‘business’ color before trial. Something in a less strong, more neutral colour. The lawyers are all in the darker stronger contrasty power suits, the client I suppose should not look dominant at all.
Witnesses GZ confronted TM..They fought, Zimmerman pull out a ground shot TM and he FELL to the GROUND , Thats explains NO BLOOD http://www.scribd.com/doc/97342975/Trayvon-martin-autopsy
The defense has not provided any written opinion of their expert so I wonder what they are going to have to rely on to refute prosecution expert witnesses.
I’m not so sure they’re practicing law, it’s more like they’re trying, and failing, to use “The Force”
well…’The Farce’, maybe…?
@Woow!
The defense has emails. The emails no doubt said that the “expert” could not determine the voice to be GZ’s. The logic of the defense is that if they can’t get an expert to say it’s GZ, then they sure don’t want experts testifying at trial that the voice is that of Trayvon’s.
IMO, the defense sabotaged their case by requesting the Frye hearing.
“The defense has emails” Okayyyy. I’ll send you am e-mail on your Privat Chat…never mind, I’ll post it here.
Without a doubt, the voice screaming in agony on the 911 calls recorded during the event in question of 2/26/2012 is that of Trayvon Benjamin Martin, a minor child.
I have used all of the latest technology available now and from the future so as to be 100 % accurate in this determination. When one considers the events, and the fact that the gunshot ends the death shriek, along with common sense, it cannot possibly be the defendant Mr. Shit for Brains who utters the screams, nor any cries of agony.
I trust this communication will put this issue to rest and any doubts removed.
racerrodig
@racerrodig.
LOL!! When I first heard that call on the news, with the gunshot ending the screams, I knew who was screaming. Then GZ spoke at his first bond hearing, and again on Hannity’s show. He put up the Facebook beg site with a video. I became familiar with his voice. Listening to the call again and with headphones, I distinctly heard GZ’s voice while Trayvon was screaming. It is during the time when Jeremy is coming back inside.
What we have is the redacted tape, and I am sure the unredacted tape provides more of GZ in the background while Trayvon is screaming.
Yep, and stack the phone records on top of that and his NEN call…..Buzzard Bait.
What happens if the defense experts, upon hearing today’s testimony by state experts, comes up with their own opinions, maybe new statements they can say are heard? Will there be another Frye hearing if they use other methodologies?
(or just use the defendant himself, to say he said things and they must be on the audio)
@ay2z.
That’s the thing — the defense doesn’t have any experts. All they have are emails from experts who did not identify the cries for help as GZ’s voice.
And the recorded call with Serino in which he states “It doesn’t even sound like me.
>^..^< Well cover me in honey and throw me to the fire ants! Whoda thunk Georgie wasn't shrieking in mortal terror?
😛
Sooo….a professional’s opinion vs fact should be inadmissible?
Imagine that, LOL.
Imagine that!
It was strange today, it was like a mini-trial, but there must be a hidden plan somewhere along with their hidden expert opinions. Judge Nelson has not threatened to disallow any expert on either side, if they do not provide reports on their opinions to be presented at trial, or I missed that order.
I must have missed this from the last thread, you can’t leave for long and not have a new LLMPapa visual entry when you come back.
Hope it’s ok to bring it forward here, really, the state is under no obligation to provide their work product if fogen goes into a song and dance on the witness stand, about head bashing and such.
Brilliant. This is the first Papa video that I’m aware of, that has made use of a full length silence track. Powerful messages. Simple, but powerful.
did you see his other one where he ran the Travon voice that was found today along with the screams?
If anyone had a question about who it was before, they won’t after hearing that.
Also interesting is the fact that the defense accused Trayvon of taping his buddies beating up a homeless man, never released the video to back his claim, but also never mentioned Trayvon’s voice can be heard on another video that was also retrieved from the phone.
What a scum!
Oh it was really silent? Here I was trying to repair my speakers! HA HA HA!!
Malisha, now I have to triple check!
Powerful silence.
Wow. That was stunning in it’s simplicity. I think his use of silence brilliantly illustrates the point I’ve been trying to make all along. We don’t need $8000 software programs and calibrations and mathematic formulas. All we need is the simplest understanding oF human anatomy and physiology. Zimmerman insists that he pulled the trigger because he was at the brink of unconsciousness from lack of oxygen , and he couldn’t breathe due to hands over his mouth and nose, and suffering compression asphyxia from the 158 pound weight allegedly sitting on his diaphragm. the simple fact is, humans cannot scream if we cannot breathe. So if all those things were really happening to him, it would have been anatomically impossible for him to be screaming. and if all those things were not happening to him, then he lied about why he pulled the trigger Catch-22 George…you’re fucked.
Strange how he could lift, aim, and fire a gun, but he couldn’t lift his hands to pry Trayvon’s (void of all fogen DNA) hands from his nose and mouth.
Then again, strange things happen at the brink of unconciousness.
He told Hannity when he asked what ran throug his mind before he killed Trayvon, the answer was his default ‘don’t know’ as he said ‘It happened so fast’.
But not so fast as to think he must of thought about pushing the gun “far enough” so it passed his “other hand’.
It didn’t happen so fast as to stop the killer from taking steps to keep his hand safe. And to make sure of course, he was to the point he knew, by whatever this means, he was ‘on’ him.
If fogen was the one screaming (while his head was being bashed 24 times into concrete) and he then shot Trayvon, don’t you think their would be some audio of that in the 911 call? Wouldn’t the screams have had a bash-by-bash rhythm?
In order for GZ to be telling the truth, Trayvon musta stopped bashing his head into concrete and punching him in the face because you could not hold a gun on someone with all that moving around and if you remember, he told Serino he was ON him! Again, kinda hard to do with all that going on, much less being able to get it out to begin with – so ughhh, I’m so tired i can’t say what I’m trying to say but I know everyone here knows exactly what I mean.
Yes. There would be gaps in the screams due to the head being slammed and punches being thrown to Fogen’s face. The screams are pretty clear and concise so it is obvious Trayvon was the one screaming for help.
all i can say is that i wish i had recordings of west’s voice when i was trying to soothe teething, colicky infants back to sleep.
hey now, i have an excellent marketing idea 👿
Good idea. He’s awful
Be sure this would not be classified as child abuse.
Otherwise, would be a useful and functional product, with an extremely low price point, even free as a mp4 download. I would not suggest a talking doll form.
@ay2z — no, no talking doll, i promise!
West just might need a new career as a subliminal tape speaker after this trial.
twosides says
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Last comment for the night.
I remember Fogen said he had time to aim for the kill shot while moving his hand out of the way. It just truly dawned on me to take note that Trayvon was aware he was going to die. Fogen had this child restrained and the child SAW his death coming. He SAW this strange man aim for his chest and shoot. We all say to ourselves that this could happen but whoever thinks the unthinkable will? How do we prepare for a crazed gunman chasing us at night? What an awful way to spend your last minutes on Earth.
Fogen is an evil SOB. Literally.
He’s a dangerous guy, he needs to be locked up
Who knows who is next with the Fogen gang?
Oh I agree. All this crap about being ready for black protests and riots. Give me a effn break. I’m MUCH more scared about the white biggot racist freaks if GZ is found guilty that I’d EVER be about anyone protesting or rioting or whatever the hell they think only black people do if he is acquitted.
People talk about how they’re scared of the New Black Panthers, but actually it’s the racist skinheads who are the violent ones.
mgs, that’s how bullying is set up. You want to hurt somebody and dominate them and exploit them? Insist that they are hurting YOU and bullying YOU and dominating YOU and all you are doing is getting free of them: by (of course) hurting them BACK and gaining the upper hand and of course blaming them. It’s good old Fogen-tested “HE HIT ME FIRST.”
Excellent post
That’s why that last scream was so blood curdling. I can’t listen to it and I don’t know how law enforcement does it. He was screaming for his LIFE. He wanted ANYONE to HELP him because he knew it was his last and only chance. Sadly help did not arrive in time. Remember Fogen said he didn’t have much time, police were on the way. Can’t let them see him with a weapon trained on a kid he was painfully wrist controlling. He knew all about SYG. Gun owners especially those in the NRA I assume are educated on their state gun laws. He wanted to be a cop, I’m sure he had cop friends.
That blood curdling scream is evidence and I don’t know how anyone who hears it can ignore the truth it tells. It shows Fogen wasn’t being beaten to death, it shows there was no fight.
I would be very interested in reading a book on this case after the trials are over. He waived his SYG so he is open to civil suits.
I’m re reading “Black Like Me.” WOW. Things have changed but so much is still the same as it was 40-50 years ago. It’s a quick read I recommend it.
You’re right Shari. I read “Black Like Me” when I was in 10th grade. It took me a very long time to finish because it caused so many emotions and I literally had nightmares and sorta kinda physical pain.
It was so shocking to imgaine that it was all true. My parents grew up in the 50’s in Birmingham, then moved to L.A. where I was born and raised, so very far away from their’s and the authors uncontionable racist experiences.
After reading the book, I no longer rolled my eyes in annoyance (but not where my mom could see of course…..mamma didn’t suffer no fools or disobedient chillin’) when my elders would tell of life during Jim Crow days in the south.
I think I’ll also read it again.
I just ordered Black Like Me from Amazon after reading your posts. I love you guys! You all have educated me inside and outside of the courtroom! Thanks
Read Black Like Me decades ago in school. It made a lasting impression.
Last year was the first time I ever been on the internet,I knew nothing about facebook or blogging you can call me old fashion. I was on my way to work one morning and I was listen to this case,about a week later they play these 911 tapes seem like my life just stop right there. I was asking myself how could this be that the killer is not in jail. I started watching the news more getting mad and feeling hurt for what this family is going threw. I had seen where this guy had started this thing where over two million people had sign it. That’s when I told my son to teach me about the internet and social media. My son found Justice for Trayvon Martin for me on facebook,at that time all I did was read comment from people. I started to see alot of raciest comments I then knew I was in a whole new world. I wanted to reply to those raciest comment so bad,I just bit my tonque. I just kept reading comments everyday and watching the news. One day I was reading over there and someone had posted this blog I paid it know mind and kept reading comments. Someone else had posted the same blog again from here so I said let me go check this out from that day I was hook. This blog has taught me so much,what blows my mind is we are strangers to each other but we came together for this cause to get justice for this kid. Those cries for help from Trayvon Martin change all of us. Professor you are a blessing to all of us. Less than 72 hours the wheel of justice will start turning. I like to say thank you Professor for letting me be a part of this. And to all the bloggers out there who want justice for Trayvon,keep his family in your prayer this trail may get nasty I don’t trust the defense. To the bloggers here thank you for making me feel welcome.
Thank you for being here. We were all called for a reason!
Yes I came over from the Huff Post from links and instantly addicted I learned so much here. Trayvon has a voice.
Long time “no see” keisha……welcome !
Awe thank you
So nice to see you’ve joined us here, keisha
I was drawn to the innerweb late in lfe to about5 6 years ago.
Basicly I got it as a paggage with my cable company .
Thought id give it a whirl 49.
Had internet six mnths bfore I even figured out hot to get the internet
I Used my lap top for solitaire or painting device wasn’t even sure what the inner web an blogging was.
One day a friend told me you need a rueter an got me one an connected.
An the Caylee Anthony case came to my attention
I googled a movie mark Anthony
An a gazillion hits came up on casey Anthony
cayleee Anthony
CINDY ANTHONY
I THOUGHT W T F.
pRESSED A FEW LINKS AN LANDED ON THE HINKY METER.
An that was my intro into blogging welcome aboard.
Colin, I landed on the Hinky Meter, also followed the Anthony trial the whole time. I couldn’t wait to get home from work to see what was new that day. Some people get addicted to alcohol, some to drugs, I was addicted to that story. Her parents made me so angry. When that verdict was read, I was stunned. To this day it angers me. How 12 people reached that verdict is unbelievable. George said he would do anything for Casey, and he did. Sure enough, in less than a year, he was visiting her, paying her rent ect. I promised myself I would never become emotionaly attached again like that. But somehow…..not sure how I ended up here, but it doesn’t take long to find a place to squeeze in once you start reading here, it just feals right.
Sometimes I read through blogs on other sights and I either laugh, or I think WTF, are there people out there that really believed that shit, or are they just trying to stir the pot. Is that really how they get their kicks. I don’t know why cracker came to mind. Only thing they’re good for is taking a whole package and
crushing them in your soup. Couple of hours later, with one flush, they’re on their way home.
I found out about this site via e-mail from Smirking Chimp.
Welcome to the Internet. I’ve been online since 1987, before there was a world wide web (but the internet already existed). Back then, “social media” was Usenet, which was a little like the comments here, but they were global. That is to say, instead of each place having their own comments, it was all one big forum of comments.
But no matter. Whether you’ve been on the Internet since the first connection in 1969 or you got on yesterday, we all have one thing in common. We don’t want someone to get away with murder.
heya robert — been on the net myself since before we had the WWW. 1986-7 in san francisco, a roommate and i had dial up service to ‘the well’. mostly discussion groups, heavy on the grateful dead discussion boards. somehow, getting home from a show and posting the set list first was a big damn deal. ahhhhh, the good old days 🙂 nice to find another member of the club in good standing!
I do remember that cheap dial up service in the 90′ and fauxmccoy, every year the greatful dead would come to Cal-expo for a concert, and we would end up with all the dead heads asleep on the lawn at the office building I worked at around the corner.
@soulcatcher — we must practically be neighbors then 🙂 you never found me sleeping on your lawn, i promise. although i saw a lot of shows, it was because my friend always had free tickets. i enjoyed them, but i wouldn’t have spent much of my own money on them and i was surely no trust fund baby.
Does the Keystone Corner in SF still exist? City Lights book shop? I love SF.
I was on the usenet too, pretty much around the same time. 😉
Fauxmccoy I used to be on the well…whole earth ‘electric link. It was my very first email address.
I had to get rid of my edgySF profile on HP yesterday 😦
@edgy
small world, eh? what happened at HP?
@leander — yes, city lights still exists. ironically, that is the publishing contact i have. i am friends with ferlinghetti’s daughter. not a bad connection and a lovely spot.
Idk. I got scared…don’t want to make a target of m’self. I’m not far from Sanford, and the Zupporters give me the creeps.
I’m sad about it because I stand by all my posts. Yet I also feel free. And safe.
Interesting friend, fauxy. I initially wanted to write my Masters thesis on the Beat Generation. Seems to be still around the corner of China town, same place.
I am not much on Google+, by the way and I wondered if he would like to do it at all. I sometimes have these spontaneous ideas. But City Lights wouldn’t be bad, not bad at all. I find OR Books quite interesting too. Besides always good to get ebook copies. Space gets more and more limited.
This is about the only blog I can do and I too want to thank the Professor and everyone else for helping me remain sane throughout this tragedy of justice.
Like you, I would get sick to my stomach when visiting other sites with all the vile and evil hate all over the place. I use to put facts about the evidence on those sites/blogs and would only be met with racist words, pictures and/or video. I then realized that these people do not want the truth and justice as the will ignore and only repeat this broken nose story that has no evidence to back it up.
I then bumped into LLMPapa’s videos on Youtube (once I tried to send him a personal message because I had no one else to talk to about it, but was blocked. LOL) and I knew that I was not the only one that felt the way I did. I can not remember how I ended up here, but think one of the racist from the Treehouse mentioned his disdain towards Professor and here I am!
Thank goodness that we can all share here and not be judged and met with hate!
I read a post on FB by one of the pages that support Trayvon. It was about the evidence that maybe Trayvon was trying to get away. I was so relieved to find this place. Now it doesn’t matter to me what anyone says, I know the evidence & I know the truth. And there is a strong community that is all things a person could hope for, fighting & growing together for a child. I love reading the banter and caring of you all for each other. It’s so healthy & beautiful. I am so thankful Trayvon’s parents have such honorable advocates. Hoodies up & tick tock.
This is something I can’t comprehend about people who believe Fogen’s tale. In order to believe him you must disregard the fact that we have the murder on tape for the most part. We hear nothing that even resembles, “You got a problem now homie.” “You gonna die tonight.” We do not hear any fight or scuffle. We do not hear any bashing on concrete or muffled screams from suffocation. His story does not jive with reason. We hear what we all ASSUMED from the very beginning. Fogen is detaining an innocent unarmed high school kid because HE has decided to label him a punk/suspect/asshole. It’s where logic + evidence leads me. I don’t know Trayvon or Fogen. I’m on the side of the truth and that lies with the victim. The truth is that Fogen is a cold blooded unrepentant murderer.
If any one part of Fogen’s tale has proven to be false there is no reason to believe any part. If his tale does not match up with evidence we do not believe him. The day after the shooting his telling of the “fight” did not match with where Trayvon’s body lay.
Finally the trial is almost here. Justice for the victims family. My prayer is that he is found guilty based on the evidence and law. Afterwards Trayvon can be remembered for who he really was.
Goodnight. Le’ts all resolve to post links to this website on several sites every day. Get the truth out there.
The people don’t believe him they are just racist and can’t fathom Zimmerman could be in the wrong because you know all blacks young and old are criminals.
I blame the media and hollywood for this Sh**.
No black teenager today would say “You got a problem now homie.” Maybe in the 80s around the time Colors cane out and I doubt they would them. That line is straight out of a movie and a parody movie of some kind. “You gonna die tonight” please, youth today is not trying to talk to you they would have just started popping off rounds. Zimmerman sounds like a fool.
Lastly, Trayvon was your typical teenager at his age. It is obvious he is not a product of a broken home because he has two parents that were involved in rearing him and providing guidance.
In my opinion, GZ was well aware of the SYG law, although he said later that he hadn’t heard of it before the shooting. I think he made the claim that Trayvon said ‘You’re going to die tonight, m-f*&ker’ in order to add weight to his claim that his life was in peril. It never made sense to begin with, and lost any credibility as soon as the scream tape was released.
GZ probably heard and used the term ‘homie’ with the teens he ganged up with when he lived in Manassas VA, and I seem to recall that he used it once on the jailhouse recordings in FL. It’s inconceivable that a black teen would use it in this day snd age, especially to an older man who probably looked and sounded white to him.
elcymoo, that was addressed here. You can go to the Florida website in charge of matters. Besides towerflower affirmed it too. He has a concealed license in Florida. You get all this information when you get your permit. It may not be called “Stand your Ground” but the appropriate laws are all there. He knew quite well what he was doing. Even that as long as he claimed he defended himself they had to let him go based on the law. How could he feel so surprised or tricked if he didn’t?
He has a very selective memory. There is evidence he has quite a good knowledge of some parts of the law. That’s why he has to put his weapon so very, very far away metaphorically. To be quite honest with you I forgot I carried. On other hand I carry it all the time.
Leander~ No, it has NOT been decided about whether gz has/had a valid CCW. It was never revoked, so there is GOOD reason to believe he never had a valid one in the 1st place. Yes, it was discussed ay length BUT many are not convinced (I’m not) that gz ever had anything other than that poor crumpled piece of paper that the cop claimed was a CCW.
________________________________
Let’s agree to disagree on that issue, cielo. I don’t think it will be an issue.
Leander- you’re right. At trial it won’t be an issue. It’s small potatoes compared to murder. But damn! I wish we could know for sure!
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
Thank you for putting the Toad Zimmerman on blast.Who the heck says,You got a problem homie?Those words were way before Trayvons time.What a lying piece of ish.
elcymoo: you heard Zimmerman use “Homie” on a Jail phone?
I had pointed out last year that Zimmerman was putting the words he uses into Trayvon’s mouth.
When Serino asked him about 2005 incidents . He said he came over to the cop and said “what’s your problem”, “you gotta a problem” something to that effect ,
and .. and when asked about his old GF he said to Serino “she’s got no problem with me”
Totally agree. In the movie Colors though, wasn’t it the Hispanic gang members that coined the term “Homie”?
I think the Black characters were using the “N” word to refer to each other.
At any rate, that term is something that I doubt would have come out of the teens mouth. I am not sure what the teens these days say, besides the “N” word to speak to other mean, regardless of race, but I am confident that it was not “Homie”!
Can’t wait until his ass is finally in jail where the “Homies” are awaiting!
Nellie, “Homey” has been around at least 30 years. I thought it was an Anglicized “hombre” (man). Cielo must know.
@Cercando –
“Homie” comes from “home town boy” but more intimate as far as immediate friendship. A guy you hang with.
It’s not a guy from your the home town. It’s a known friend from “the neighborhood,” or barrio. That’s the benevolent reference among the non-criminal element.
More sinister, he’s a guy from the specific gang territory of you and your fellow gang members, and he’s a member. .
It was a hip term in the 1970’s but out-dated now. Originated in East LA (eastern area of Los Angeles) and Barrio Logan in San Diego; likely in Texas border cities as well.
PMom- dang, I said the same thing only not as intelligently as you. 😦
FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62
@Cielo –
That’s coz I’m older. And probably knew more homies – back in the days when there WERE homies. In L.A. — where else? “Mi Boyle Heights casa es su casa, homie.”
(From the cluttered casita of La Gordita … )
cercando luce~ LOL! No, “homie” comes from “homeboy” meaning friend or neighbor. At first it was a term of endearment and recognition. As it sometimes happens, other people pick it up and the word morphs into new meanings and distinctions. It’s pretty much not used anymore, and has become rather passe.
________________________________
I used to collect homies that come out of the bubble gum machines. They are miniture little mexican thug people.
It is not uncommon for South Americans or “latinos” to adopt hip hop culture. I grew up around Mexicans who overused “homie” and the n word. Fogen was projecting, HE used the slang “homie” with his gang buddies back home.
Homies
When I have heard that word used it is between mexicans. Ex.
“I saw Jose and his homie at the park today.”
Dont understand why this is such a big arguement in the first place. Like really GZ, itsnot you yelling. A baby could decipher that from the audio of the recording. GZ and his counsel insult the intelligence of our whole country. These arguments prove to me that they believe we are truly stupid.
You should see Robbie The Racist’s first video with Piers Morgan
That is when Robbie claimed the child like screams were Fogen and then he got booed and the video has the most thumbs down in youtube history
I’m sure this has been posted here somewhere but I thought it was a great clip.
Thank you for this prof. I too was questioning why the hearing got off topic. We were getting into minutia and what I assumed were trial issues. Things the jury would need to hear.
Didn’t the judge have to remind the defense that this was a FRYE hearing. They are not very ethical, are they? Either that or they don’t respect the process. They use any tools they can to simply get their statements out. Mentioning “punched in nose.” ect.
Follow.
I think the defense are trying to be clever and they do not know what they are doing. West stumbles all over himself and it is obvious he does not know the procedures or rules; and MOM is arrogant.
You are right. They have no respect for the judge or the process.
not trying to be clever here but doesnt the term “death shriek”(a proper description of what is heard) sorta lead directly to the conclusion that the person about to become death would be the author of those type shrieks?
There goes that common sense thing again….I’m shocked The Moron Man didn’t ask for the words “death” & “shriek” to be banned.
racerrodig, maybe he did, but got the spelling all mixed up and called the terms to be banned “dirt” and ‘shiek”.
There is an explanation to all who wonder about the smarts of the defense lawyers.
Those KKK e’rs will be all messed up now, ya know, not being able to use dirty sheets…er, dirt in the sheets….that is dirt & sheiks.
I never thought about it that way, great point, racerrodig
Of course The Moron Man could say his client uttered that death shriek…..Man I wish he hadn’t missed his left hand.
I’m sure Fogen really wants the word “racist” banned.
I’m thinking there are a whole lot of words he wants banned. Like, “asshole” “punks” “coons” “goons” “gun”, “shoot”, “shot” “T” “black” “hoodie”, “jeans” “button” “suspicious” “no”, “good”, walking” “rain” “ran” “shit” “running” “break” “in’s” “neighborhood” “clubhouse” “guy” ……….in fact, just give him what he wants, bar all words that are in the English Language.
It won’t matter, he’ll still be convicted.
Do you think gz is beginning to see that these experts are defeating gz’s claims?
I don’t. I don’t think Fogen is in touch with reality on the issue of whether or not he is being believed. He’s a dunce! He believes it’s NOT POSSIBLE to disbelieve him; anybody who DOES is doing something deliberately wrongful, in his and Junior’s book. Such a pack of liars!
@malisha Exactly! Fogen is the sociopath living next door. He is deeply entrenched in his own muck but still thinks he is going to come out smelling like a rose. It is like a deranged fantasy.
I think Fogen will continue lying and lying and lying and scheming, no matter what happens
He got caught redhanded attacking police and then claimed it was self defense
and he’s been doing the same shit every time he gets caught red handed
He went too far this time and I do not feel the people of Florida will want him walking around after this
That is because he has never been held accountable for any of his actions his entire life.
Even during the recorded jail phone call when he called Jr “worthless”, you’d think Jr would not appreciate that. He instead stands on the lawn giving a new conference about how loyal Fogen is.
Anger management for assaulting a cop, I have never heard such a thing.
Slamming a woman in a bar, what kind of man would let another man walk away from that?
Shutting the electricity off on ones own mother? Geez he has issues.
His ex files a restraining order and then he turns around and does the same thing.
He is a manipulative piece of crap and you are right, this time he went to damn far. You do not kill someones kid and think that shit is okay!
Now all they have to do is keep the racist idiots off the jury!
@Nellie Nell
The legal system is just as responsible for Trayvon’s death as Fogen himself. He never should have been able to squirrel his way out of assaulting a federal agent and two cases of beating his ex-girlfriend. Those charges would have barred him from owning a handgun and crushed his dreams of being a police officer.
Conclusion: The legal system is a joke. Stop giving people plea deals and start holding people accountable for their actions.
I tend to agree that the people of Florida would not want GZ walking the streets of Florida but then I think of the IT guy who was willing to lose his job to help him b/c he claimed to have felt the battle field was not level. You can’t forget GZ’s die-hard supporters who want and need to believe he is innocent of murder. They were thousands of dollars strong.
“They were thousands of dollars strong.”
That may be, but we here on Team Trayvon were over 2 million petition signers strong. They had less than 2,000 signers trying to get this dismissed.
He who laughs last shall be members of Team Trayvon.
You mean do Zimmerman realize his attorneys are dumb?
They really trying to buy more time with these filibusters.
I am sure Judge Nelson saw through that (especially during the childish, stalling theatrics last Thursday) and made clear in no uncertain terms that the trial will commence on June 10 2013. O’Mara crawled back to his hole – with his Motion to Continue in his hands.
I guess it’s good to have a tenacious defense but they don’t know when to advance and when to retreat. They stepped all over themselves today.
Glad you’re back, Prof L! We thought maybe all that clumbsy defense manuevering got the best of you or your computer.
The killerlovers have a new talking point: it was third person screaming on the recording.
Where is this third person?
@Professor.
Fantastic! I really liked when Dr. Reich made it known that he heard and evaluated “I’m begging you” and “Get off, get off.” The defense appears to want to limit the background voice to saying “help” but anyone one, even an untrained professional, can hear more in the background of that tape.
Exactly. The hypocrisy is astounding. This is voodoo science, but our expert is prepared to say Fogen was yelling for help.
Give it a break. I’m hoping West leads the defense most of the time starting next week…..the boredom will tick the jury off so bad, they’ll convict him on General Principal.
@racerrodig.
It might take 2 to 3 weeks to seat a jury, but if West takes part in voir doir, the jury chosen will probably have already formed an opinion about him. I can only imagine West asking, “Have you already heard the tape of the defendant screaming for help?” And Judge Nelson putting him out of the courtroom. LOL!
Bernie will have a field day with them…..I forget his your assistant’s name, but even he’ll have bragging rights.
Robbie The Racist aint foolin anyone
It’s voodoo, yet he was going around saying it was Fogen using no scientific methods, just lying was what Robbie used?
Give me a break, it’s a damn kid screaming for help
I feel bad for the jury because they have to listen to a kid being terrorized attacked and murdered by Fogen
Bottom line, Robbie The Racist is a piece of fucking garbage, he’s trash, fuck that muthafucka
Great……tell me how you really feel now….I can take it, that rat bastard lying racist son of a bitch.
Unidentifiable black hand holding gun photo
Source of photo us unknown on how it was taken except that it was a third party software on the phone
Unauthenticatable
= evidence
911 call on the night of the murder which sounds like a kid screaming and begging for help and his life
= voodoo
That’s their thought process
Notice how both Fogen lawyers came to court the last two hearings wearing glasses LOL
Then they claim they can’t afford to bring the expert into court but Fogen is wearing a Burberry tie and suit which is altogether at least $1,000
WTF
And beige isn’t his color…..WTF and then some.
voodoo??
That’s what Robbie the Racist called it “Voodoo Science” unless of course that voodoo is in FogenPhooles Phavor. Then it’s called “An Exact Science”
racerrodig, yes, saw the title of jr’s junk science attempt, didn’t read the article beyond the title.
Thought a little Heddy…. Hedley L was in order. 😉
I had that clip up and was gonna post it, it was 1:29 long and I though ….naaaaa, it’s late.
lol, I’ll take the blame 😉
What say we call it even……I’ll take half.
fine idea, racerrodig, good teamwork. I’ll toss in a change from Shiek to sheet too.
The first time I ever listened to the 911 call I heard “noway” or “goway” but I never heard “help.”
Get off , Get off words backed by DD
With a recording of trayvon’s voice there should be no doubt who was doing the screaming. Not that there should have been any doubt in the first place.
Beta (following)
Thank you, Professor!
The defense cannot be that far off base. They do know better and they show it in the cliches. Therefore what they are doing is whiling away time. My guess is, they’ve looked and discovered there simply isn’t an avenue that leads towards acquittal, that is not cut off, blocked, or as in the case of character witnesses; leading over a cliff onto the shoals far far below.
Having a duty to perform, when smoke and mirrors is all you have, you make smoke and watch the mirrors. Of course, there will be that nice little treasure trove that Omar can walk away with, I doubt gz will get so much as pocket money to take to prison with him.
Wow, I never thought of that, all the new money will be mom’s?