Court of Appeals grants writ permitting defense to depose Benjamin Crump

Monday, June 3, 2013

Good afternoon:

The Court of Appeals granted the defendant’s petition for a writ of certiorari. Therefore, defense counsel will be permitted to depose Benjamin Crump. However, the scope of inquiry is strictly limited as follows:

In concluding that the trial court erred in denying Zimmerman an opportunity to depose Crump, we caution that any deposition of Crump is to be limited to inquiry of circumstances surrounding the interview of Witness 8 and the contents of such interview. Defense counsel may not inquire into Crump’s mental impressions regarding Witness 8, nor may counsel inquire as to the reasons why Crump conducted the interview in the manner in which he did. Additionally, we believe the work product privilege precludes defense counsel from making inquiry as to the reason(s) Crump attempted to locate Witness 8 and the methods employed to do so.

The deposition contemplated by our opinion should be relatively short and straight forward. We are confident that the trial judge will be able to take the steps necessary to ensure the deposition is limited to the subject areas describe above.

This is generally the subject matter that Crump covered in his affidavit.

The Court of Appeals is saying that Judge Nelson should have permitted defense counsel to use the deposition to cross examine Mr. Crump about the information in his affidavit.

The opinion is a per curiam opinion, which means that no judge wanted to take credit for writing the decision, even though all agree on the result. For all we know, it may have been written by a court commissioner.

I disagree with the portion of the opinion where the Court concludes that Benjamin Crump is not “opposing counsel.” The Court’s conclusion is supported by the case cited, however, it is a civil case and the vast majority of cases involving depositions are civil cases.

This is a criminal case, however, in which Benjamin Crump must wait to file his wrongful death suit against the defendant until after he is convicted. Note, for example, that the defendant’s defamation suit against NBC has been stayed pending the outcome of the criminal case.

To say he is not opposing counsel is a hyper technical dodge that ignores the reality of civil cases arising out of criminal cases in which lawyers representing victims of violent crimes or their survivors may from time to time assist the police and prosecution to put together a case against a defendant, ride on the coattails of a successful prosecution, and sue the convicted defendant who cannot then deny liability.

The Court of Appeals missed or deliberately ignored that important distinction.

I also disagree with the manner in which the Court casually dismissed the work product argument by saying Mr. Crump waived the work product privilege by inviting members of the press to attend the interview.

Mr. Crump invited two members of the press to listen in on the interview so that there would be other witnesses present and he would not find himself in a situation in which he might become a witness in his own case and have to withdraw as counsel for his clients. He did the right thing.

One of the requirements to depose a lawyer is that the party who seeks the deposition must first exhaust other means to obtain information and defense counsel did not do that. Yet, the Court of Appeals ignored that.

No wonder none of the judges wanted to take credit for this decision.

I expect defense counsel will push hard against the boundaries set by the Court of Appeals because they appear to be determined to portray Benjamin Crump as an evil mastermind who invented Dee Dee as part of a conspiracy to shakedown insurance companies for money at the expense of convicting an innocent man. This is utterly ridiculous treehouse madness, I know, but it is what it is.

There will be objections and Judge Nelson will issue rulings on those objections restricting the interrogation to those boundaries. Defense counsel will scream foul loudly and publicly in hopes of poisoning the jury with more “evidence” of a conspiracy.

Whether we will hear more about this remains to be seen, but the Court of Appeals decision has not helped matters.


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253 Responses to Court of Appeals grants writ permitting defense to depose Benjamin Crump

  1. ic2fools says:

    Ya’ll remember these Fogen Throwbacks? IIRC these are before the nuthouse madness. Doubt is Sonner or Oliver is the confidential witness. Snark Uhrig is busy with his own legal issues.

    George Zimmerman VoiceMail To Frank Taaffe




    • ic2fools says:

      Interesting Fogen exactly what was Taaffe doing for you while you hid out at Ostermans? There’s a lot more to that story, because Osterman and Taaffe know more about that night than admitted.

      We’ll see June 10th, we’ll see….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Wow, seems like forever since this stuff. It’s been a long ride.

      • ic2fools says:

        Yes has TSTAS, it was cra-cra then and gotten only worse.

        We know Sonner is a runner he’s not the confidential witness,Uhrigs’ word ain’t worth shyte and Oliver well he’s just a damn joke.

  2. ay2z says:

    I’d ask this Wendy Murphy lawyer person, what resources she investigated as research for this MNSBC show? Does she not wonder why the SYG self-defense immunity from prosecution opportunity was rejected by the defendant and his lawyers for the court record?

    If Wendy, it’s so easy for the defense to make their case, why not get it over with ahead of time? Why does the defense need to see what Wendy thinks amounts to nothing for the state?

    IS NBC now bending over backwards for the defense, because as the host reminds the audience, the defendant is suing NBC.

  3. ay2z says:

    Wendy the lawyer, said that Florida self defense is clear, if you are in fear, you can shoot to kill and she says fogen has the injuries to his head to prove it, and “a lot more all over his body”. She did forget to mention the nose ‘break’ that wasn’t supported by medical reports.

    No body injuries at all, but for some claimed SI sprain.

  4. Tzar says:

    I am disquieted by a sneaky suspicion that had Trayvon been a 275 lbs mma fighter with white skin, that all discussion about him would involve his sovereign right as a citizen to walk home in peace, that it would seem utterly ridiculous to be discussing his past, his right to freely walk home unmolested would be considered sacrosanct and beyond reproach, to the point where any other perspective would b offensive to even consider. Because bottom line we would all recognize that, How fucking dare Zimmerman approach him and how most excellent it is if he indeed gave Zimmerman a broken nose, we would almost wish he had taken Zimmerman’s life instead of simply satisfied with musings of how he could have gotten away.

    Think of how pissed you would be if your child came home and told you that he was stalked, chased, interrogated and threatened with a gun by some unidentifiable nut job. How quickly would you have called the police?

    How dare he!!

    • Shari says:

      You are absolutely correct.

      Why isn’t the NRA coming out saying that “if only Trayvon had a gun he would be alive?.” How can you start this whole murder at the point of contact? As if Fogen did NOTHING to precipitate an encounter with the innocent child. They defend the indefensible. The idea that it was LEGAL for Fogen to follow Trayvon because he didn’t know him? I keep repeating myself but there would be no criminal defendant GZ had he NOT suspected EVERY black male of a crime. I see strangers in my neighborhood every day. I simply close my door and mind my business.

      And on the issue of profiling Fogen has a lot of nerve. When I saw his picture he resembled the perv. like day laborers who would harass and whistle at the neighborhood girls on our way to the park. I said this before but if he had murdered Trevor O’Reilly Hannity and Malkin would be going on about illegal immigration and Ms-13. They would not go through Trevor’s social media accounts and look for reasons why he needed killing. They are really picking a part Trayvons life and IGNORING his emails about college.

    • Malisha says:

      That’s the life interest.

      Trayvon had a life interest in walking home unmolested no matter what his cell phone pictures were.

  5. ay2z says:

    Victim is screaming, victim Zimmerman, victim did have his head bashed and the only one who has injuries, other than the bullet wound, who had injuries on his head worthy of stitches.

    Where does this Wendy lawyer person get her information? Stitches???? In a pun, that term in this situation is not funny, no one is in stitches then or now.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yeah – I sure wish these media pundits would get their facts straight before flapping lips.

  6. TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

    Crane wrote,

    “An intellect rivaled only by garden tools.

    Another engineering prototype that should not have been shipped.

    Answers the door when the phone rings.

    If brains were taxed, he’d get a rebate.”

    LMBO. You are a hoot Crane and spot on. Love it!!

  7. TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

    Crane Station wrote,

    “Well, good. Our opinion is that you made up a story and had no intention of admitting it, until you got busted. How the heck did West agree to allow you to do all the talking, Mr. O’Mara?”

    I don’t know about that Sis. Remember the dressing down they just received from Judge Nelson about West revealing what was said minutes after they had an in chambers meeting and claiming she said something when she didn’t? LOL. Not only that, the craziness that comes out of his mouth during court proceedings LOL. It’s a no win situation.

  8. Sanford police department reforms should include closer ties to community, panel says,0,1720989.story

    Sanford police officers must build a closer relationship with residents — particularly those in the historically black community of Goldsboro — to reduce crime, a citizens panel recommends in the draft of a report to City Hall.

    The report suggests that officers be more visible in the community even where they’re not responding to calls and that they form better bonds with residents. That can pay off when they investigate crime, the report notes.

    The panel, which was formed to examine Police Department polices and procedures following the shooting of Trayvon Martin in February 2012, also recommends that the city hire more officers because the department is understaffed when compared to similar agencies. Pay should be increased as well, the panel found, because officers are paid less than those at other agencies even though they “face challenges that officers of higher-paying agencies do not face.”

    Among other recommendations:

    •Sanford should look at installing cameras in high-crime neighborhoods because the practice in other cities, such as Orlando, has been successful.

  9. How to apply to attend George Zimmerman trial

    Members of the public interested in attending the George Zimmerman trial can enter a lottery for one of 24 seats in the courtroom, the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit said.

    The court will accept applications for a random drawing from 2 to 4 p.m. through Monday through Friday at the Supervisor of Elections office, 1500 E. Airport Blvd., Sanford.

    The first drawing will be held Friday for the first day of jury selection Monday.

    Anyone interested in a seat must submit their name and phone number at the elections office a day before the court date on which they want to attend. Those selected will be notified by phone and given instructions for picking up their visitor pass at the courthouse the next morning. Photo identification will be required.

    The Zimmerman trial will be held at the Seminole County Criminal Justice Center at 101 Bush Blvd., Sanford. For more information, go to the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit website at

  10. silk says:

    i do beleave that that state can strongly win this case . it dosent matter if they despos crump . its disposition is limitted . to me i feel that 6-7 hearing is another big 1. i strongly beleave that time has run out for omara . and that he is basically trying to set up (gz) for an appeals . 4 give me, i could be wrong . just my thoughts . if the audio is admitted then i would expect (gz) to attempt to hang himself. .

    • truthseeker66 says:

      The victim’s race is going to play a big part in this case. Juries have been known to be racist–especially in the south. Just saying…

      • BillT says:

        “just saying”….i must ask why do people use that term when they did NOT “just say”…they do IMPLY and avoid actually “saying”……..

      • Trained Observer says:

        Although northern and central Florida are more southern than South Florida, the state as a whole is not representative of the Deep South.

      • truthseeker66 says:

        @Billy, it’s just anothet way of saying just my 2 cents.

  11. silk says:

    @ searching minds and lonnie star: first i would like to state that ,like the professor, i do enjoy reading your comments . i find your thoughts very very impressive. but my question is the blood splatter on the garage door? how far was it from the actual seen . and how would you tie that within the time line of (gz) lie .

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Well, first things first, we don’t really know that it is a blood stain. Of course, we can’t envision it being much else in a neighborhood like that, where it is unlikely that any events that would result in such a stain being deposited there by some innocuous and/or method unrelated to that nights activities, would have transpired. So it appears to be circumstantial evidence that gz happened by there and somehow deposited that stain.

      GZ says that he went over to RVC and turned back, but we know that his word is unreliable, so we can easily discount his version as a lie. The flashlight he claims needed knocking on to get it to work, turned out not to need any such attention, when the detective Serino tried it. Thus it is more likely than not, that the flashlight needed no such knocks. The alternative that has been suggested was that gz was knocking on someone’s door, this stain makes a very good fit for just such an activity.

      All gz would have had to do would be to turn south when he reached RVC and Jon’s garage door is just a few short steps away. What he did there and what Jon’s role may have been, we can still only speculate about. But it does seem that gz is feeding us yet another line and he obviously did not turn back immediately and head for his vehicle.

      One of the alternatives I can see is, while it would take Trayvon a minute or two to reach his house, it would only have taken seconds for Jon to come out, start his car and whisk gz up to the rear gate. He’d have been back home so fast his absence would not even register. Without any yelling or screaming going on, there would be nothing to alert anyone, his companion would probably not even notice him gone for what would be under 2 minutes tops, if he had done that. And that would create the conundrum we’re having over how he could beat Trayvon back to his house. GZ does seem to have a pretty tight relationship with Jon, enough so that Jon does not fear seeing gz with his gun still in his hand, and having him kneel or stoop for the photo he took. GZ states that he did not put his gun away until he saw the policeman arrive. Thus we have reason to believe that he still had it in his hand when Jon met him and had him stoop down for the photo.

      Jon later claims that gz was a stranger, for whom he called and notified his wife of the shooting, without giving any directions to get to the scene. Yet, Shellie and Osterman somehow manage to unerringly get to the proper location without missing so much as a turn, coming from where they claimed to be miles away at the time.
      Jon did not give his address or any other location data, not even to say he was at RATL. Which I’m sure he would have said if he was trying to give the impression that he was unknown to them as they were supposed to be of himself.

      So, there’s that!

  12. elcymoo says:

    Pics and documents here:

    Mon Jun 03, 2013 at 05:26 AM PDT

    Officer’s Cellphone Pics Show Zimmerman May NOT Have Been Punched the Night he Killed Trayvon

  13. Just a brief announcement, Fred just returned from the motorcycle shop. We had a loose chain, it is fixed now. Not sure what the topic will be today.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Glad your chains are not rattling any more!

      Wonder what we can expect to hear from the defense as they depose Crump? Will the defense still be able to dispense nonsense once voir dire starts or will they finally have to shut up?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        If Omar thinks that he’s doing the defense any favors with this nonsense he’s releasing, he has to worry that any juror who has heard his claims, will be expecting to hear the substance of it presented during the trial.

        You don’t crow to the high heavens that you have definitely found exculpatory material, then don’t find a way to use it at trial. You’re setting yourself up to fail. Worse yet, if some of it manages to get in and is then shot down on cross examination, that juror will see a clearer picture of a manipulation attempt. Jurors don’t like that at all.

        Tainted jurors will come to the trial, expecting the material that prejudiced them, will be expanded and expounded upon, not simply ignored or easily knocked out. So Omar’s work is a double edged sword, which he will probably cut himself to shreds upon.

    • Correction: Smackdown of the utterly bogus HLN reenactment video will be the topic, I believe. (h/t ay2z and others)

      • Thank you for the link. I find the UPDATE to be an interesting mix of a better attempt at an apology on the one hand, that should have ended there, but O’Mara continues to rationalize. He also makes a substantial Freudian slip when he says Trayvon was just a “regular 17-year old kid.” Thank you for acknowledging our point exactly, Mr. O’Mara. He was a regular kid, like yours, mine and ours, and he was not some kind of special crazed kid on a murderous rampage. I am, quite frankly, almost surprised you didn’t add that the fabrication was “God’s Plan.”

        UPDATE: Tuesday, June 4 — Mark O’Mara told HuffPost, “It was a mistake, I’ve acknowledged it, it happened and I’m sorry. I only wish that those who are so willing to condemn would be without fault first.”

        “I said something wrong, and I apologize,” O’Mara added. “What they’re doing is trying to make more out of it because they have, for the past year, put Trayvon Martin up on a pedestal where he shouldn’t have been, because he’s a regular 17-year-old kid and they knew all this information about him.”

        “Quite honestly, I’m not sure there’s any impact at all because no one has seen the video,” O’Mara noted. “They’re entitled to their opinions. I would only hope that they apologize for their mistakes as quickly as I have.”

        Well, good. Our opinion is that you made up a story and had no intention of admitting it, until you got busted. How the heck did West agree to allow you to do all the talking, Mr. O’Mara?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think OM would be a lot better off to not pat himself on the back. Just sayin’. :/

        And I don’t think Trayvon has been on a pedestal since the event. He’s always been an unarmed minor walking to his father’s girlfriend’s home from a convenience store, unfairly profiled, followed and shot by Fogen.

      • Rachael says:

        What an asshole. He makes me sick.

      • TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

        He is something else. I have no respect for him.

      • cielo62 says:

        FactsFirst- man, what utter bullshit from MOM! There was NO “mistake” in what he did. I hope his peers are watching carefully, in order to disbar him later.


  14. FactsFirst says:

    Wow! All I can say is shit rolls down hill and by the time it reach the bottom IT’S HUGE! This is a very high profile case so Imma look at this decision as the justice system doing everything it can to cover its own ass.. I’m sure everyone sees O’Mara and his shenannigans and they’re just crossing t’s and dotting I’s.. At the end of this case, I believe all the fingers will be pointed at O’ Haha…

    • That article was well done, from Daily Kos.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Soulcatcher, thanks for link. I feel a common sense jury, if given opportunity, will take a look at:

      1) Fogen nose pix,
      2) Vids of Fogen strolling the cop shop shortly thereafter as if it were a Sunday open house.
      3) Med records showing he refused to go to an emergency room or see an actual doctor or have x-rays done

      Looking at these, and weighing his claims of being savagely beaten with fear for his life, the responsible conclusion would be: FOGEN LIES.

      Add the fact that he visited the physician’s assistant only at insistence of his employer, the conclusion would be: FOGEN IS A BIG FAT LIAR.

      That sets the scene for jurors to look askance at virtually every other defense claim.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        And as if that weren’t enough, we have his claim of being beaten within an inch of his life near the T, only to have the body found dozens of feet to the south of there. At a place where the eyewitness testimony of having witnessed the same kind of beating, then retracting it, probably because Trayvon’s autopsy report says it never could have happened at all.

        I’m pretty sure that the SP make John feel that, if he insisted on his impossible story, he might be considered more deeply involved in a murder investigation. That would probably have scared the daylights out of him, such that he’d quickly fall back.

    • LeaNder says:

      soulcatcher, I finish reading it later, but it is not true that GZ SPD photo was taken only 45 minutes later. At that point in time “the photographer” was still busy at the crime scene. I think it was more likely around 4 hours later. . I think it was around 23:*** but I would need to look it up. I forget the lady’s name at the moment.

      The others parts I read so far are good. I find the photo odd too especially the dot on the nose and the peculiar shape of the nose. On the other hand would w13 really manipulate the photo. That I find just as hard to believe.

  15. SearchingMind says:

    Complete Legal Nonsense. That’s a short and precise description of the Appeals Court Ruling.

    However, “the prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law” – Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841 – 1935). Translation: the Justices have spoken. And their word is law. That’s it. Over. Crump will be deposed – be it in an extremely limited form.

    But the Justices are also wrong. Dead wrong. I say this because of the following:

    a. The Ruling is internally inconsistent. On the one hand, the Justices reason that Crump is not an opposing counsel. On the other hand , the same Justices reason that defense counsel may not inquire into Crumps (a) mental impression, (b) the reasons why Crump conducted the interview and (c) the manner in which he conducted the interview. Thus the Justices, it seems, decided that Crump is not an opposing counsel BUT at the same time limited his depositions as if he were an opposing counsel.

    b. The Ruling is also internally inconsistent on a different ground. On the one hand the Justices suggest that Crumps has NO work-product privilege. On the other hand the same justices “believe” “that the work product privilege precludes defense counsels from (a) making inquiry as to the reason(s) Crump attempted to locate Witness 8 and (b) the methods he employed to do so”. To make this finding, the Justices must have concluded that Crump is opposing counsel and thus has work product privilege.

    c. The Ruling has no (practical) purpose and is utterly meaningless. I say that because of the following. Given (a) the content of Mr. Crump’s affidavit and (b) the limitations imposed by the Ruling on Crumps deposition, there is NOTHING left for the defense to depose Mr. Crump on. If and when Mr. Crump is deposed, all Mr. Crump has to do is to repeat the same questions contained in the tapes of his interview of Witness 8. Anything more than that will amount to inquiring into Mr. Crumps (a) “mental impression”, (b) “the reasons why he conducted the interview” (c) “the manner in which he conducted the interview”, (d) “the reason(s) Crump attempted to locate Witness 8”, and (e) “the methods he employed to do so” and thus violate the limitations imposed by the Appeals Court.

    Do you see why this Ruling is intrinsically inconsistent, utterly meaningless and devoid of any academic discussions and merit (especially regarding the concept of “Opposing Counsel” where the Justices relied exclusively to “plain language”/“grammatical interpretation” of these two words)? Justices can sometimes be detrimentally irrational and stupid. But that stupidity is Law. And that Law is binding. Attorneys who have any regard for the sanctity of the ‘attorney-client-relationship’ and the philosophy underlying it, must push back. This Ruling is atrociously reckless!

    • SearchingMind says:

      “The state is going to have a hard time refuting the claim of self defense- that’s where the case can easily be won by the defense,” Baez said. “The state not only has to put forward their evidence, they have to exclude every reasonable hypothesis of innocence and do so beyond a reasonable doubt – I don’t think they can.” – Jose Baez.

      I think Baez makes a valid point/premise. BUT his conclusion is wrong. I disagree with him.

      a. GZ kill Trayvon. That’s not in dispute.

      b. The State will put forward abundant evidence with regard to the elements of 2nd degree murder.

      c. The State will put forward abundant evidence of multiple versions of GZ’s narrative, thus excluding in that process any hypothesis of innocence as unreasonable. Evidence of lying about self-defense actions is a confession to murder. As an example: GZ claimed that the Dispatcher asked him for an address and he (GZ) went to the RVC to get one. Regardless of the truthfulness of that claim, GZ was actually at the RVC BEFORE he was asked for an address – if you believe GZ’s other statements. And we are not talking forensics and ballistics – yet.

      d. If GZ does not take the stand, its game over.

      e. If GZ takes the stand, he will self-destruct. O’Mara would be foolish to put GZ on the stand. That, IMO, will do more harm than good.

      Always remember that ALL of these TV commentators are not as knowledgeable as the students here and talk garbage most of the time – including Baez, Dershowitz, Knox, etc.

    • Weed?

      If what he says is true, GZ would have walked on an immunity hearing months ago. Baez wants some publicity out of this, but he oughta zip it, because for one thing, he does not have a medical degree.

    • Tzar says:

      I posted this in the previous thread

      “On the front end every argument in support of Zimmerman MUST ignore all his actions before the altercation and on the back end they must completely ignore the discrepancy between his versions of the altercation and between his versions of the altercation and the forensic evidence. This is the sweet middle earth land of Narnia that his defenders take refuge in as they are besieged on all sides by common sense, logic and the available facts. Unfortunately the media is in the business of fantasy and flights of fancy, so they are going to get a podium until this case is over.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think the straight news media should be restricted to posting the facts of exactly what happens in court . There’s way too much speculation on national TV for my comfort. That belongs more in blogs, I think. Or programs that are strictly opinion / entertainment and these should be characterized as such. There’s too much of a blur between opinion and fact in our media.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Shari, it’s especially too late for those too young to even know what straight journalism is!

      • cielo62 says:

        Tzar- “the sweet middle earth land of Narnia”? That’s a sure way to get lost!


    • Malisha says:

      Baez’s wording was interesting. He said he did not believe that the prosecution could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Fogen’s story “was not true.” That presumes Fogen’s story gets into the trial. HOW does it get into the trial? Fogen has to testify, that’s how. So Fogen gets up there to testify. He then gets … uh … cross-examined.

      THUS, Fogen’s story does NOT have to be “proven untrue” beyond a reasonable doubt. Fogen will leave NO DOUBT whatsoever in the minds of the jury that he is lying, WHILE HE TELLS HIS ALLEGED STORY.

      What Baez is trying to do is to cover for someone — and it is not even Fogen. I believe that he is trying to do a favor for someone HIS client — Serino — needs a favor done for. That is, Baez saying that the self-defense claim is credible is Baez giving his client Serino a valuable present to give to someone else. WHOM? I think the possible answer is: THE WHOLE SPD. They are still under investigation for the cover-up. If Baez keeps saying that a lawyer would have believed the self-defense story, the SPD gets off the hook for having “believed” it and let Fogen go without any charges.

      Baez gives [valuable present] to [someone who needs it] who obviously has, can or will give [valuable present] to Baez.

      That’s how the game is played. And since Baez doesn’t represent Fogen and it won’t be HIS FAULT when Fogen is convicted, it’s a “no harm no foul” situation for him to say that total bullshit now.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        If foggen is asked to demonstrate how he managed to draw his weapon in under 45 seconds, he’d be toast. Back to the ground, with legs straddling his sides, he’ll have to take one hand away from guarding his face and somehow snake it under the leg of the person sitting on top of him.

        Now watch, each time he starts to go for his gun, the person on top brings his hands up to gz’s face. The reflex is to bring both hands up to cover. So, each time he tries to reach for the gun, and the person on top attacks his face the reach for the gun has to end, because his reflexes just won’t allow it. You can’t let someone you don’t know point two fingers at your eyes and keep moving them closer and closer. So, in forty five seconds gz does not have his gun in his hand in that position. Worse yet, when and if he does manage to get it out, he has no shot without an angle. He’s toast!

        Not to worry though, I’m sure BDLR has much better in store for him.

        Tick Tock.

  16. Operacarla says:

    Dear Leatherheads please help. I see that FOX is offering instant text messaging in the fogen trial. I will be at work, delivering the mail and out of touch until I run home and immediately check in with Frederick. Is anyone aware of a more fair source for instant text messaging? Thanks in advance.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Damn, FOX sure has taken an interest in this case hasn’t it. I guess they aim to see their FAT BOY lie his way out of going to prison where he belongs. I have never seen so many news media, be so bias about any other murder case in this country before.

      HLN is even leaning towards this bloated goat at times.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Don’t be messing with texts while delivering mail, that is too dangerous, from one letter carrier to another,whatever, BE SAFE.

    • Operacarla, thank you for the comment. We choose not to IM, and we do not text, ever, so I will defer to others on this. I think it is notable that FOX has taken such great interest. All right then, we will be the ones explaining and analyzing the backstage action, beginning with voir dire. This should be interesting..

      • ay2z says:

        Fox’s interest. INteresting that they paid nothing for the hannity interview, and now we see the defense fund about to burst over 50 grand.

        And O’Mara states it’s too late for to claim indigency now as an excuse in one of this weeks articles. What was stopping him before, changing his cleint’s self-pay status, unless it was not to allow the auditors to learn how he’s handled money, and where money came from.

        • Somehow I have the feeling O’Mara has been dishonest about the money from the get-go; BDLR has alluded to that, and if something to that effect turns out to be the case, O’Mara certainly could be skating on thin ice, bar-wise. I hope my feeling is wrong, but there has been so much BS and so many many different stories- why would the money stories be any different?

    • diary73 says:


      • lurker says:

        MSNBC is providing coverage. I don’t know if they will be tweeting. Some of the local FLA stations have been tweeting coverage of the courtroom hearings, so I would imagine they will continue to do so. Seems like at least one was offering a Zimmerman App.

      • cielo62 says:

        People of the Leather?


  17. HLNtv – Trayvon Martin autopsy

    • elcymoo says:

      A few things jumped out at me right away when I watched this discussion of the autopsy/re-enactment of shooting:

      The expert points out the small abrasion on Trayvon’s ring finger, below the knuckle, and says it’s the only ‘defensive’ wound, but doesn’t mention the absolute lack of any offensive bruises or abrasions on TM’s hands.

      He notes that the back of GZ’s clothes were wet, and says that’s significant. TM’s clothes would have been wet on both the back and the front, of course.

      He lies down and says that TM was ‘advancing’ on GZ, so the host just hovers over him, completely ignoring the fact that GZ had said that Trayvon was mounted directly on him, and that he had to ‘shimmy’ out from under him to even move his poor head away from the sidewalk. Then we have the ‘hoodie fell away from TM’s body’ scenario that the forensic analysis and LLMPapa refuted.

      • Dave says:

        So… Trayvon, the experienced streetfighter, stands straddling the killer (leaving himself wide open for a stout kick to the cojones) watching GZ draw his gun. The latter, eschewing his chance to instantly disable his attacker with an easy crotch kick, extends his arm, aims, and fires a perfect shot through the heart.

        Well, I guess that settles it.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Excellent observation, Dave.

        The irrationality from the media keep on coming. Consider, among others, the following:

        a. If Trayvon stood over GZ as demonstrated in the video, how could Trayvon simultaneously be going for GZ’s gun?

        b. If Trayvon stood over GZ as demonstrated in the video, how could GZ use his (right) elbow pin Trayvon’s hands to the (right) side of his (GZ) ribcage?

        c. If Trayvon stood over GZ as demonstrated in the video, how could Trayvon simultaneously rain down dozens of deadly blows to GZ’s head and face?

        d. If Trayvon stood over GZ as demonstrated in the video, how could Trayvon simultaneously be covering GZ’s mouth and nose, smothering and suffocating him (GZ)?

        e. Ect.

        These media folks just sell pure phantasy to the public. I find it very infuriating.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Worse, he’s got what looks like a jury there, who he’s feeding this tripe to. I hope he isn’t going to ask them for a verdict, that would totally fraudulent after he’s misrepresented the evidence like that. I’ll bet I could explain the evidence to 20 different juries taking about 15 minutes each and not one would come back with an acquittal.

          Even after Omar takes his 15 minute turn. The only way gz gets a not guilty is if the jury is lied to.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Well, well, well.

        This expert specifically avoided GZ’s fairytale of how things went down.

        Ha! This means that the expert is telling us that he cannot defend gz.

      • Rachael says:

        There you go! Excellent point.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh that’s just entertainment.

        Let the guy go into the COURTROOM and do that and then let him be cross-examined by BDLR.


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        They’ve also got that big black mark on the finger, even while the text around it says 1/8 to 1/4 inch abrasion, which could actually just be a ring rub. Meanwhile they leave out completely the fact that the evidence shows that Trayvon was being held by having his hoodie and shirt being pulled quite forcefully. While the lack of symmetry of the gunshot hole in the cloths show that the shot went through a wrinkle, probably a stress wrinkle caused by the pull on the garment.

    • Jun says:

      The expert fails to use other forensic evidence in his report

      1) If Trayvon was shot in that fashion, he would have fell forward onto Fogen and that never occurred. Fogen was seen simply rising up off of Trayvon after shooting the kid as the kid screamed for his life.

      2) There’s no DNA transfer whatsoever on Trayvon’s hands, which means, he could not have been attacking Fogen in any manner

      3) The trajectory is straight forward to back, and the expert fails to mention the misalignment of the bullet hole in the hoodie and sweater, with the GSW in the chest. The hole in the hoodie and sweater to match the trajectory of the GSW in the chest, would have to be pulled down to match and align the holes, therefore the gravity theory holds no weight,

      4) Fogen’s back was not wet, and even if it was, it does not necessarily mean that Trayvon was responsible for that, Fogen could have just as easily slipped and fell earlier when he was chasing Trayvon with his gun. In fact, the back of his jacket and jeans had no forensic debris. It was also raining that night, which could be another reason for what the cops assumed they saw.

    • ay2z says:

      Question is, will this jury panel of 12 in the HLN studios, be giving their decision before the jury is empaneled in the real case?

      This TV jury panel might decide before trial is over, or even begins.

    • ay2z says:

      Vinny get on your knees!

  18. Leisa says:

    Sorry off topic but Trayvon Martin’s cell phone records were to be kept under the confidentiality rule of the court along with medical and school records. What happened to that ruling?

    • ladystclaire says:

      I thought they were suppose to be off limits as well but, we do know one thing for sure and that is, Fogen’s correspondence has all been sealed. what ever is in them, is so damming, that even the state agreed that they should be sealed.

      Poor little Trayvon’s private matters seem to be fair game, even though he was a minor. this kid and his family have really been treated horribly by some in this country and, it’s such a shame.

      • willisnewton says:

        I don’t think GZs phone records are sealed. Instead they were just not subject to wing filed as discovery since the defense already had access to the phone and its records without having to receive them from the state. This left the media and the public out of the loop until any of the material is released at trial.

        But that’s just my opinion….

      • Two sides to a story says:

        So it seems GZLC broke its word to create some drama as jury duty notices went out . . .

    • The defense claims that it had to use the information as exhibits in support of its motion for sanctions that it would not have had to file, if only the State had complied with the discovery rules and its obligation to disclose exculpatory evidence.

      Of course, this is a ridiculous claim because the State disclosed the information as raw data.

  19. groans says:

    I also disagree with the manner in which the Court casually dismissed the work product argument by saying Mr. Crump waived the work product privilege by inviting members of the press to attend the interview.

    I find that troublingly casual, too. I can see how the interview in the presence of others would waive the attorney-client privilege (for communications between an attorney and his clients), but attorney work product is a different animal. Heck … applying the 5th DCA’s reasoning, even inviting Witness #8, HERSELF, to an interview would constitute a waiver of any “work product” privilege. And that just does not make sense!

    I think the 5th DCA opinion merely perpetuates the needless confusion between attorney-client privilege and attorney work product protection.

    Also, it’s difficult to imagine what information the defense can learn from a deposition of Crump, now, that the defense doesn’t already know. What a waste of supposedly precious little defense funds it will be to pursue Crump’s deposition about facts that he’s provided by affidavit. It will just be more squandering of “scarce” defense donations on little more than revenge (since the defense incredulously blames Crump for “getting the killer into the trouble” the killer finds himself in).

    • TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

      Great post.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      From what I can see on GZLC supporters’ sites, they think by deposing Crump that a conspiracy to railroad Fogen can be exposed and the charges dropped. Some believe that somehow GZLC can expose W8 to be a fraud, or alternately, they want to know exactly who found her first and did she talk to Tracy Martin or Crump first, and on and on. If they accept that she was on the phone with Trayvon as he encountered Fogen, then they feel she’s been fed lies by Crump and the prosecution. I’m not certain that any of what these folks are curious about or would like to see happen is any more relevant than Trayvon’s imagined past. It would appear that the GZLC desire to depose Crump is just another drama to satisfy Fogen’s supporters and trigger more donations.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Well they’re gonna hate Omar even more after the depo, because he won’t be allowed to ask Attorney Crump, how he found DD or what he thinks about her, no mental impressions etc. they’re to be limited to questions about his recording her testimony and that’s it, nothing else. So what they got in the affidavit is probably all they’re going to get, maybe just a tiny bit more.

        Judge Nelson has been charged by the appellate court to keep the questioning very narrowly confined and away from Atty Crump’s work product or mental impressions, means of investigation and discovery.

        It will only take a question or two outside the proper scope to show that Omar’s on a fishing expedition, and not really interested in learning anything more about the recording session. Once Judge Nelson sees they have no further relevant questions, she’ll know that it’s time to shut it down.

    • Jun says:

      No, the appellate court said they can only depose on the interview conducted and everything else is off limits

  20. TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

    Two sides wrote,

    “Um, they feel OM manned up and is courageous. And always a gentleman.

    Actually, I doubt he’d even do his weak apology if he wasn’t caught publicly between a rock and a hard place.”

    Are you joking @ the first sentence? LOL. I don’t visit that site, so I have no idea but based on the nuttiness that is known, I can actually kind of see them saying something like that LOL.

  21. fauxmccoy says:


    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Yep, so narrow in fact, MOM had better come ubber prepared, for if he’s caught straying from the straight and narrow, the Judge will see a fishing expedition in progress, instead of a serious inquiry after permitted facts. In that event, she can judge that the hearing is too potentially dangerous to continue, because the defense has displayed an interest in using the hearing to go fishing! like the thief who cons his way into your bedroom to use the large mirror, because he knows that’s where the jewelry is kept.

  22. Shari says:

    Florida is strange. My 6 year old daughter is bombarded with advertising. (partly my fault) She says she wants to visit DisneyWorld. I think not. The idea of men with loaded concealed guns with itchy trigger fingers. What if my 11 year old wants tot ake a walk while visiting a friend? I have to worry about him coming home or being shot by some KKK sympathizer? (They ARE very active in FL) Their criminal justice/political system.

    This trial need to begin. This is ridiculous. Yes I have seen other cases drag on but it was due to lack of evidence. Here we have the shooter admitting he did it. It should not have taken this long to investigate his story. I suppose they wanted the protests to calm down.

    I’m sure they are licking their chops to get to Crump. Hope they realize how limited they must be.

    • TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

      Totally agree with you. I went to Miami in 2004 for a little vacation. This was prior to me knowing about the oddity of this state. I am avoiding at all costs. It is a pretty straight-forward case without the complexities other cases can have. However, I think the trial date being a little over a year from the arrest and charging is pretty good. Many people wait 2+ years for their trials. The system can chug along veeeeery slowly.

      • Shari says:

        You are correct. I have watched a lot of Crime TV and sometimes it may take decades for a killer to face a court of law. For me this case didn’t need all that extra time to investigate. We have the child’s body, the man with the gun said he fired the fatal shot. He told his story to police and did a re-enactment. After the autopsy what more is needed to either confirm or refute his tale?

        Yes waiting a year maybe was good. I don’t know. If Trayvon were my child it would be very difficult to wait. I guess it’s good they are keeping busy with church events and speaking about the laws.

      • HLNtv- George Zimmerman’s story of what happened on Feb 26 2012

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Come to Disneyland in Cali. We have no concealed carry weapons.

      • Shari says:

        You know what, I think I will! I went there as a child and I’m sure my kids would love it.

        2nd ad. advocates need to speak up loudly against GZ’s actions. Against the man who left the gun/hollow points at an amusement park. With great power comes great responsibility. If you want to walk around with a deadly weapon you need to make better choices.

      • dianetrotter says:

        To cover that much area, Trayvon would definitely have to have been running. It’s a big stretch from looking for a house to burgle to changing your mind and decided to kill someone. If he did just want to burgle,why switch to mad dogging and following someone in a car. This crap makes no sense.

    • I admit I know very little about Florida, other than I have heard that it has various pockets of Southern culture, if that makes sense. I did enjoy Disneyworld many years ago, and as a scuba diver, I loved the Florida Keys…that teal color to the water is spectacular. However, I have never lived in Florida, nor has any family. (well, my son, but only for a few months)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        As someone born and raised in the MIdwest who has lived many decades in the West, I found FL to be a whole different world. Race awareness seemed to simmer just under the surface of life during my year there. People in general were more reserved, more tense, it seemed to me. I was relieved to get back on the other side of the Mississippi, actually. Hopefully things have improved in the past 20 years, but revisiting central FL through this case, it seems much the same.

        • ” I found FL to be a whole different world.”

          This is what I have heard from others as well. Kinda similar here in Kentucky. The ‘rest’ of the legal community in KY (notably, Frankfort) has voiced that Western Kentucky is different and problematic, to the point where some refer to it as JustUs. My son and I call this legal phenomenon ‘The United States of Western Kentucky.’ That has a nice ring.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        crane — there is an old saying about florida … ‘the farther north you go, the more south you get’

        there is virtually no difference culturally from northern florida and the panhandle to the deep south of alabama and georgia. i say this as a daughter of the south and know from personal experience.

  23. Lonnie Starr says:

    Hardly surprising, giving the state of the state that elected two Bush’s.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Actually, Florida went for Gore by a slim margin, but the U.S. Supreme Court essentially halted the recount, screwing everything up.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yep, we saw that while it was happening. Each time Gore got the lead they’d count more Bush votes and start screaming and yelling again. In the end Gore won, too bad he conceded, but the pressure from wall street, Fire, Insurance and Real Estate (F.I.R.E.) was enormous, we didn’t know why until 2007 when the market locked up. Then we discovered what had been allowed to happen, it’s why your children and their children’s children can forget about retirement, there’s 600 trillion dollars of sequestered bad paper that needs to be paid off. My guess is that by now, using every trick they can think of, they’ve managed to settle about 20 trillion of it.

        Oh just google “600 trillion”, you’ll get an eyeful.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @lonnie et al

          during the vote recount in floriday, my husband and i watched a fair amount of it on TV … so much so that our daughter 2 at the time said ‘I’m TIRED of that stupid ‘Tallahassee Show!’ me too little one, me too.

    • ay2z says:

      Oh, that the illusive jumping out of ‘Bushes’ in one version of fogen’s story?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Ha! Bushes and shrubs lurking on every corner, rendering nose injuries and back-o-head scratches requiring butterfly bandages. ‘

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hey, never thought of that… But no, a Bush wouldn’t be caught dead helping a black, you know, “welfare queens” and all that. So Trayvon had no bushes or Bush’s of any kind.

        • Shari says:

          That isn’t necessary. George W. Bush doesn’t hate black people, neither does his brother Jeb. No need to bash all Republicans/Conservatives. Many of them are here and want justice for this murdered young man.

    • willisnewton says:

      George Bush was not elected by the state of Florida, he was SELECTED by the Supreme Court of the USA in a case known as Bish v. Gore.

      But yeah it’s a pestilential swamp and a legal and moral backwater down there.

  24. Tzar says:

    This is a strange development

  25. TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

    I know the nutters make attempt to make this into some sort of victory as if this is going to have some significant impact on the case LOL. To me, much ado about nothing. Thank you Professor for highlighting some interesting points in disagreement with this decision.

    • LeaNder says:

      highlighting some interesting points in disagreement with this decision.

      More like a pretty scathing critique, if you ask me.

      I may be completely wrong about Frederick, but I find writing attractive that originates from a deeply felt anger. One of Frederick’s first articles I read seemed to have exactly that quality too. It has to be connected with the right type of ethics though, not the type of ethics preached by SD in his recurring prayers emphasizing THEY WILL BE DONE and DELIVER US EVIL.

      I seriously wonder what type of will power makes him use capitalization.

  26. Jun says:

    Crump stated a long while ago that he will depose Omara now considering that, they do not consider him opposing counsel

  27. Two sides to a story says:

    Ahem. Annette and her merry band of ex- and still current treepers are busy drafting questions for GZLC to ask Crump.

    • ay2z says:

      I’m not reading over there, but have to wonder what O’Mara and West would ever do without that type of help.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Seriously, they could probably live without the “help”, but it’s a good money pipeline . . . just sayin’.

    • ks says:

      Are they under the impression that they can ask Crump anything they want? The court was quite specific. Heh. Nutters…

    • TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

      Oh my!! I couldn’t even finish reading all of the comments LOL. I feel so sorry for these misguided souls. One person mentioned sending in another donation tonight LOL. I assume they have been quiet on the blatant MOM lie, but want to raise the roof in celebration as if this is some legitimate victory. Ha, ha. I guess always getting clowned and smacked down, they will take any bone thrown their way. They are contradictory though as they recognize it is a LIMITED deposition LOL.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Um, they feel OM manned up and is courageous. And always a gentleman.

        Actually, I doubt he’d even do his weak apology if he wasn’t caught publicly between a rock and a hard place.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Well, now you see why GZLC does some of the things they do. These people really do brainstorm and send suggestions to the defense team . . . :-/ *coff*

    • Rachael says:

      Wow, what a bunch of – pick one:

      idiots, very stupid people, boneheads, cretins, dimwits, dorks, dumbbells, dunces, fools, ignoramuses, imbeciles, jerks, kooks, morons, muttonheads, nincompoops, ninnies, nitwits, out to lunchers, pinheads, simpletons, tomfooleries, twits

      Oh heck – pick two or three, they’re small!

      • TheMindIsATerribleThingToWaste says:

        I am not one to typically call people stupid, etc., but Rachael you are spot on and I take all of them, if you don’t mind LOL.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        And the bonus question is: When Jorge was on the call with NEN, and said “Oh shit he’s running”, what did he really mean?

        A. He wasn’t running
        B. He was skipping
        C. Walking away quickly
        D. He walked to the T and turned right
        E. I don’t know
        F. All of the above.

        In the same recorded call, Jorge is asked “Are you following him”, and Jorge replies “yeah”. When Questioned by LE, he states he wasn’t following him. What was he doing?

        Later, on the Hannity show, Jorge is asked if he has any regrets. He is asked “Do you regret getting out of your car and FOLLOWING him that night”, and Jorge replies?

        1 + 1 =

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Don’t forget doofuses– right between dimwits and dorks– there is no shortage of ’em.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          cercando says

          Don’t forget doofuses– right between dimwits and dorks– there is no shortage of ‘em.

          you are correct about there being no shortage of ’em, but i prefer ‘doofii’ as the plural, as in the plural of radius is radii. 🙂 doofii just sounds soooo good to my ear.

      • An intellect rivaled only by garden tools.

        Another engineering prototype that should not have been shipped.

        Answers the door when the phone rings.

        If brains were taxed, he’d get a rebate.

      • Malisha says:


        G. Going away quickly — but not from fear

        H. Trying to escape — but not from fear

        I. Evading capture by a creepy deranged stranger — but not from fear

        J. Attempting to evade a bizarre hostile Afro-Peruvian carrying a loaded gun and feeling that the world wasn’t treating him right — but not from fear

        K. Making an effort to elude a potential madman who might think it was his God-given right to kill someone — but not from fear

        L. Ducking down and hiding from someone who appeared ready to kidnap and/or kill him — but not from fear

        M. Skipping off to safety in lieu of being apprehended and shot through the heart with a bullet by a crazed superhero wannabe — but not from fear

        N. Sneaking around between buildings so the vehicle trolling around for victims driven by the creepy guy who appeared to be a predatory pedophile couldn’t chase him down — but not from fear.

        O. Quickly absenting himself from the creepy looking guy driving 2 miles an hour and making U-turns to stay “on him” — but not from fear.

        P. Preparing a cautious tactic to avoid being trapped by a fiend — but not from fear.

        Q. Leaving so he had less chance of being murdered — but not from fear.

        R. Quickly moving in not-the-same-direction as someone else who might be up to no good — but not from fear.

        S. Getting away from someone who looked like he was on drugs or something — but not from fear.

        T. Ambulating at a certain speed in a direction not previously reported to the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch — but not from fear.

        U. Shit — going somewhere Fogen did not tell him to go — but not from fear.

        V. Hopping, skipping and/or jumping in a suspicious fashion in a suspicious direction so that one doesn’t know what his thing is — but not from fear.

        W. Exercising locomotion somewhere at some speed — but not from fear.

        X. Obeying his own instincts — but not from fear.

        Y. Rapidly traversing space over time — but not from fear.

        Z. Starting the longest journey with a single step — but not * from * fear.

      • cielo62 says:

        Rachael~ “All of the Above.”


    • LeaNder says:

      A good perspective into mixed feelings, popcorn and celebration coupled with feeling they weren’t given enough again. The O’Mara inspired conspiracy theory seems to be a fact already, even “the three judges”, which they assume were involved, may be into the grand conspiracy against Fogen now. OK maybe O’Mara does not really deserve the copyright for that but the collective right wing mind.

      So if the Appelate Court decided to rule that way to calm matters down, ultimately made a political decision, they were enormously mistaken.

      Besides, interesting how comfortable our banned unitron feels over there. He would have loved to see BC grilled about this statements concerning Wolfinger.

      The meeting was supposed to have taken place between Wolfinger and Chief Lee. Chief Lee has been desposed by the defense by now. So it’s Wolfinger and Lee against Crump.

      Crump didn’t need a source in order to lie. Crump has been found often to say things that are outright lies made out of thin air.

      I guess it is time to admit that I gave this guy too much leeway, no matter how furious he made me occasionally.

      Something I can never quite wrap my head around is, what exactly they insinuate could be mysterious about the discovery of DeeDee. Amazing.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I don’t think O’Mara and West can successfully ask Crump to substantiate his claims about Wolfinger and Bill Lee or the source of his knowledge concerning those statements – simply because both the questions and the answer to the questions are irrelevant (to proving/disproving the charge of 2nd degree murder/self-defense).

        I do not miss Unitron. I however miss Whonoze. Where the heck is he?

        • LeaNder says:

          Who can always find Whonoze at his own blog. Tchoupi’s recent comments are a perfect example how easy it is to get people to look at matters they way O’Mara wants them too. Even the most unwilling have the meme O’Mara dictates on their mind when they set out reading. And it obviously colors their perception. That was the most disappointing revelation so far.

          Fredrick really should write a book about the case, he is the only one I can see out there that is absolutely brilliant in looking straight through O’Mara’s prevarications. I have arrived at the conclusion that O’Mara’s specific defense strategy is as important to understand for the US at large as the case itself. He is feeding the rage, and he is willingly feeding memes into people’s minds to get what he wants. I seriously hope he will fail. But I am sometimes pessimist when it comes to this type. Seen too many succeed with it.

          Does anyone have connections to good publishers? I have one on my mind and someone with good connections. Although, no idea if he can help.

        • LeaNder says:

          Who can always find Whonoze at his own blog. Tchoupi’s recent comments are a perfect example how easy it is to get people to look at matters they way O’Mara wants them too. Even the most unwilling have the meme O’Mara dictates on their mind when they set out reading. And it obviously colors their perception. That was the most disappointing revelation so far.

          Fredrick really should write a book about the case, he is the only one I can see out there that is absolutely brilliant in looking straight through O’Mara’s prevarications. I have arrived at the conclusion that O’Mara’s specific defense strategy is as important to understand for the US at large as the case itself. He is feeding the rage, and he is willingly feeding memes into people’s minds to get what he wants. I seriously hope he will fail. But I am sometimes pessimist when it comes to this type. Seen too many succeed with it.

          Does anyone have connections to good publishers? I have one on my mind and someone with good connections. Although, no idea if he can help.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            leander aks

            Does anyone have connections to good publishers? I have one on my mind and someone with good connections. Although, no idea if he can help.

            i do. hit me up at google+ if you want more info.

      • Right, I mean, there is a phone record. His phone was, after all connected to hers, so what would be the mystery about that?

        • LeaNder says:

          Yes, that was my question to a post by Diwataman insinuating based on the deeply sophisticated knowledge in the right wing camp, that started out with “the alleged cell phone by Trayvon Martin”.

          He by now has rewritten it and it feels has been supplanted by something like. One has to occasionally speculate to get at the heart of matters. Another one of these –here I do it adorers–St. George adorers Nettles has just challenged my question who the three judges that wrote the response were in fact the ones that “concurred” with it. I mean isn’t it important who is into the grand conspiracy against George Porkie?

        • LeaNder says:

          Yes, that was my question to a post by Diwataman insinuating based on the deeply sophisticated knowledge in the right wing camp, that started out with “the alleged cell phone by Trayvon Martin”.

          He by now has rewritten it and it feels has been supplanted by something like. One has to occasionally speculate to get at the heart of matters. Another one of these –here I do it adorers–St. George adorers Nettles has just challenged my question who the three judges that wrote the response were in fact the ones that “concurred” with it. I mean isn’t it important who is into the grand conspiracy against George Porkie?

          • So, did Nettles and Diwataman separate their sites, or did I imagine that? I admit I don’t visit the other sites much, and apologize in advance for the gossip. Just curious.

          • LeaNder says:

            Crane, I don’t look much into this camp either. My general impression is that Nettles comes from the conservative treehouse initially. Some here may know this better than I do. I encountered her in Diwataman’s comment section studying unitron, not long ago. Were she had a short chat with Diwataman about a comment by him that seemingly was delayed on her blog. So it may well be she only started it recently. Don’t worry, I will not mention Fred, he already has all the attention as the center of pure evil over there. I assume they can easily figure out where my knowledge about per curiam comes from. If you google appellate court Zimmerman and per curiam his article is among the links. I wish Turley and Merrit would comment on the decision, but at the moment they seem to prefer silence on the issue. At least Merritt was exited about the political argument at the end that horrified me, but there you go. Fred is right, this writ should have never gotten the attention it got.

          • Really seems much ado about nothing, the writ, that is.
            We are well aware that they would just as soon see us burned at the stake as not, so we’ll just respectfully disagree, keep to ourselves, hope nobody comes to our home to stab us in the face, and leave it at that.

            I can understand and respect a decision to create one’s own site, certainly.

        • LeaNder says:

          Yes, that was my question to a post by Diwataman insinuating based on the deeply sophisticated knowledge in the right wing camp, that started out with “the alleged cell phone by Trayvon Martin”.

          He by now has rewritten it and it feels has been supplanted by something like. One has to occasionally speculate to get at the heart of matters. Another one of these –here I do it adorers–St. George adorers Nettles has just challenged my question who the three judges that wrote the response were in fact the ones that “concurred” with it. I mean isn’t it important who is into the grand conspiracy against George Porkie?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’ve only read over there, never commented, but it’s a good blog. I loved this recent comment by 2dogsonly (excerpt):

        May 27, 2013 at 6:19 PM | #35

        “I looked it up, Tchioupi. Here it is:
        Do u want a 22 revolver is do you want to be a revolving door in & out of HS until you are 22?

        Have an 80 4 you. Is –I have a wake up call for you. Stop being a dummy.your Dad and I will be having an intervention with you.

        I know this is correct translation cause I asked my children what it means and they swore this is correct.

        Please Tchioupi, you are way too smart to even be concerned with this bravado from a barely 17 yr. old trying to grow up.

        I would take this 17 yr. old AA kid as my neighbor any day all day long over that redneck psycho any day of the week.”

        Me too.

        • LeaNder says:

          I like Whonoze too, as Treeslaw he was among the people I discovered early concerning the case on youTube. I also have the highest respect for Tchoupi’s work, that’s why the comment made me sad. Look, if even these people can be tricked so easily. that’s sad, isn’t it?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I too was saddened and quite shocked to see Tchoupi so easily taken in, knowing already that the defense is lying and has been continuing to lie. A misstatement or even two can be forgiven, but once outrageous lies are told, you know that you cannot rely on the unverified word of the liar(s). Theorize, suggest, imply fine, even highly opinionated offerings can be given a pass to some extent.

            But to discover that anyone is blatantly offering as fact, things that are at odds with the truth that they should or do know already, means that their subsequent offers should not be accepted without independent verification. And if what they’ve said cannot be verified, it should be dismissed as unreliable!

            GZ’s story about being attacked is completely unverifiable, no only as to where it happened but when, and if it did happen at all. At one point he did have a witness who claimed that it did happen, but that witnesses claims were not supported by the evidence, so it’s hardly surprising that he had to retract it. Leaving gz with only his worthless word for the matter. His word is unreliable and the evidence refutes it, therefore he is not telling the truth and what he has said is a lie!

            Tchoupi should not have been so easily taken in. That said, it is also evidence that his work was unbiased! It is therefore even more reliable than it was before!

      • SearchingMind says:

        Crane, this is what my GF told me:

        Nettles18 (who also claims to be “Anette Kelly”) uses a picture of a lady (which may or may not be her real picture) as avatar. Diwataman (apparently smitten by luv) first enlarged Nettles18’s avatar on his blog and then crowned her “Diwatalady”. I kid you not! That was creepy. Anyways, on the one hand, Nettle18 got kicked out of the CTH by Sundance Cracker (that guy is disgustingly insane). On the other hand she (Nettle18) found Diwataman creepy. So Nettle18 quit and got her own blog. She appears to be emotionally unstable and infatuated with both Tracy Martin and GZ at the same time, in my not sexist opinion.

        (With my GF, you don’t need the National Enquirer in the house. She knows something about everybody. Just one of a kind. So, I don’t even bother keeping anything secrete from her. )

        • LeaNder says:

          Thanks, TM, that was interesting. Say thanks to your GF, whatever that may stand for. Oh, I think I got it, don’t bother to explain. 😉

        • LeaNder says:

          Thanks, TM, that was interesting. Say thanks to your GF, whatever that may stand for. Oh, I think I got it, don’t bother to explain. 😉

      • lurker says:

        Having fought a lot of battles with birthers, I can attest, no amount of information can ever refute the true believer of a conspiracy theory. Any refutation is simply folded in as evidence of how wide the conspiracy is and how many are involved in creating the means by which to hide the “truth” whatever that is believed to be.

        Hence, comments that suggest that the judges who ruled on the writ are “in on” whatever it is and therefore provided the limitations that will prevent O’Mara from asking questions like, “Is it true that you just made Deedee up?”

      • LeaNder says:

        why are all my comments doubled when I respond via the notify interface above? First time this happens, it feels.

        Sorry for spamming Crane, can you delete the doubles? Oh, if you like you can change Who to whatever it was I wanted to use there? How, maybe? 😉

      • I don’t know where to put this, but thanks to LeaNder, SearchingMind, and ‘GF’ for the interesting info on the blogs.

      • Malisha says:

        They are acting like the family of the slain youth was wrong to try to gather evidence that the killer of their son was wrong to kill him! About Unitron — I have not tried to find his opinions any more, after they were cleansed from this blog — but I must agree that his opinion that Lee and Wolfinger had any credibility or any motive other than the most corrupt and damnable cover-up is an outrage. If he were not intelligent and he held that ridiculous opinion I could attribute it to an innocent source (dumbness can be innocent at times) but he’s smart. It’s very revealing that he is screaming about Crump “lying” and upholding two criminals who stepped out of the way as soon as their lies and crimes were about to be displayed for all to see.

      • Malisha says:

        IMO former police chief Billy Lee sponsored the killing of Trayvon Martin. There, I said it.

      • LeaNder says:

        Lonnie, if I am completely fair, I had to read it twice mayself. That’s how I know what happened to Tchoupi. Only with a closer look, I realized I had been manipulated.

        There are of course teenage talk type of abbreviations or terms that I did not understand anyway. I am still not sure what he refers to with: You’ve got heat? Weed? Is this US type of rhyming slang?

        Of course it is a trick by O’Mara. But he couldn’t use it without a basic knowledge of human nature. He also wouldn’t have used it without the realization that some of it will stick and that only few bother to take a look at the documents beyond what they are told by media, and still fewer study it closer. And strictly he may not even have understood himself what .38 or .22 refers to. Another feature we all somehow share is that we occasionally see what we want to see. O’Mara is no exception to that rule.

        Make no mistake, I don’t like the guy and I think he is manipulator, but he obviously can use a variation of the above observations to explain his way out of any attempt to pinpoint him. He knows full well ultimately it is success that counts, the way he got there will be mostly forgotten.

        The sad story is , from an attorney’s perspective much of this may well be business as usual. In other words it’s the usual strategy to smear the victim. And it is obviously much more easy to do so, if the victim is dead and cannot witness any more. That’s why the main focus of defense is on DeeDee and Crump. No wonder really.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes and I too was disheartened by what Omar had released, but, I didn’t post until I had a better understanding of it, BECAUSE I have had Omar do this same thing before. Once burned twice shy! My guess is, perhaps tchoupi had not been paying attention to what Omar was doing in court, since he’s the kind of guy who works the heavy technical background, he would be inclined to put more faith in the documents he reads. While I look for some psychological foundation to be my guide.

          I think most people had a tendency to believe what they read or heard, because it’s easy to believe that everyone speaking the same language is using the same words in the same way we ourselves are accustomed to using them. Forgetting that each region of the country, in fact even each neighborhood has it’s own dialect. Lawyers are trained to take advantage of the misunderstood meanings of words and as a divorce lawyer, Omar would be steeped in that world.

          Suffice it to say, him having done this to a whole lot of people once, he’s not going to get away with it so easily after this. Which, of course, is the mark of a bad lawyer. If the jurors also discover he’s been fooling them, he’s toast and so is his client.

          Oh, Judge Nelson just ruled that these penalty motions should not be talking up the courts time pre trial, so she’s put them off till post trial. Omar and West find that particularly frustrating and worrisome, because the effect they were reaching for was to create a bias that might allow them to go judge shopping again. It didn’t happen.

      • LeaNder says:

        mayself = myself.

        didn’t check what I wrote, changed some sentences thus there may be more.

        Just realized one half hour only. Don’t expect me to see me around till it is finished.

    • ic2fools says:

      TSTAS their nutz are happy an just a abouncin with glee…..

  28. Animaljunkie says:

    So, would it be ‘cricket’ for Attorney Crump to depose the killer’s lying attorneys in his pending civil case? It goes both ways, after all!

    • Jun says:

      Yes it does go both ways. Crump stated long ago that if they granted Omara the right to depose him, Crump would motion for the same right, considering they do not consider what he has work product or opposing counsel

      • Animaljunkie says:


        Yes, I remember when Crump & O’Mara were the speakers at a Press Association meeting & Mr Crump stipulated as much. I thought it was priceless & I would have savoured the look on O’Mara’s face when that was said 😀

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          We’ll have to wait a bit on that deposition, it isn’t a done deal just yet because the appellate court left open that he could still appeal. I think he will.

      • Animaljunkie says:

        @Lonnie Starr

        I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Mr Crump appeals, but ultimately, he’s got nothing to hide AND the appellate court made some restrictions as to what Mr Crump could be asked.

        I don’t believe the killer, MOM & team will benefit from it; it was just a bullying tactic to bolster the KillerTrolls erroneous/spurious & childlike arguments, not to meant that monetary support!

        I notice MOM has not officially requested Mr Crump’s deposition yet! :O

      • ic2fools says:

        Correction my apologies Jun the reply was to Animaljunkie,

        @Lonnie JMO, At this point Mr. Crump may go forward with the depo just to make more of a fool of OM jus sayin.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          At the least he knows the depo will take place under the Judges watchful eyes, so there will be no fishing expedition or improper question to answer.

          • ic2fools says:

            That is a good thing. Omar is a fool, he is going to try Judge Debra one time too many. Watch this week she’ll send him off to ‘time out corner’ while she regroups.

            Judge Debra has a Madea look which says:

            ‘Mr. O’Mara I wanna snatch you across this bench. to meet Mr. Gavel. Mr. Gavel meet Mr. O’Mara then smack right across the kisser’

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, and I’m not guessing that Judge Nelson is going to hold the deposition in her chambers, the appellate court said they had faith that Judge Nelson could ensure that the deposition stuck to the straight and narrow and was kept within the bounds of the limits they set. That was a very strong hint about what measures she could take to ensure that slime pot would not have any wriggle room at all!

      • Animaljunkie says:


        Oh thanks! Yet another term that came from the heart 🙂

  29. Romaine says:

    we caution that any deposition of Crump is to be limited to inquiry of circumstances surrounding the interview of Witness 8 and the contents of such interview.

    would the answer to this would be Trayvons death, DD was on the phione with him moments before he was shot, and then he can give them a copy of DDs’ depo?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I take comfort in knowing he was originally going to submit to a deposition . . . and that it’s now limited . . . I’m sure GZLC will spin it as hard as they can, but hopefully won’t change anything that much.

    • Romaine says:

      Professor does this mean Judge Nelson approves the questions to be asked during the Depsition of Ben Crump

      • No, it means the deposition takes place and he decides whether to answer or refuse to answer each question, after conferring with his attorney who will state the basis for any objection and refusal to answer.

        Defense counsel can seek an order from Judge Nelson compelling him to answer any question(s) he refused to answer. She will issue a ruling.

      • Jun says:

        Can’t Crump just say

        “It is answered in the affidavit”

        It sounds like Blackwell and Crump already answered a lot of the questions

        In Canada, I got a transcript of my deposition and I just read from it my answers when cross examined

    • ay2z says:

      Remember Knox?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Mr. Knox Socks. Is he behaving himself?

      • ay2z says:

        It’s a rerun attached to today’s Crump news video.

      • I wonder if anyone has put the time estimate for zimmerass to walk/run/skip??? across the “T” and down the street to the back entrance in order to “catch” Trayvon “escaping” through the back entrance and not finding him anywhere there coming around the bottom and back up the “T” therefore catching Trayvon at or near his Father’s back door. I just have a gut feeling this is what happened and I have a gut feeling he was searching for Trayvon with his loaded and ready gun out. Has anyone put a time test to that?

        Hoodies Up!!!!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Sheesh. An animated graphic that assumes truth in GZ’s description of where he was. Not useful.

      • aussie says:

        Very useful, actually. It shows he would still have been on the NEN call when he was “attacked at the T”. Therefore that didn’t happen. Knox’s graphic clearly shows GZ would have had to stand around at the T doing nothing for 2:32 minutes waiting for Trayvon to sneak up and attack him.

        So it is useful for showing the re-enactment video was all lies.

      • lurker says:

        I agree. The only not useful portion is the comment that Trayvon did not go straight back home during that time. I personally believe that he was hiding between two condos, and could tell that Z. was still around because he could hear him talking on the phone. And, as even Knox points out–Trayvon was under no obligation to go straight home, so what really matters is that the way that Z. tells the story could not have happened the way he told it.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Let’s say you’re being stalked in a community where the homes are spread out like RATL. At home you have a younger brother who would be of no help and would also be in danger if you led stranger home.

          But wait, let’s not be so heroic just yet. Let’s say you’re thinking of making it to the safety of home. Does it ever dawn on you that the back door of the house is nothing but glass? Do you realize that if the stalker sees which house you enter, he could simply break the glass and come get you? If so, I kinda guess that before you actually even tried to enter your house, you’d take a few moments to be sure that you wouldn’t be seen by the stalker who is now out of his truck and hunting on foot somewhere.

          If you see him, that means he can see you, and you don’t want him to get the idea that you live there, so you’ve got to get away from your house fast. Hardly any wonder that Trayvon never made it home, how could he when home wasn’t safety?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Either way it doesn’t matter, gz was committing a crime when he caused Trayvon to leave the mail kiosk, concerned for his own safety because a stranger was showing an unexplained interest in him.

        Rather than tell Sean that “he’s coming to check me out”, which he has a perfect right to do, gz should have rolled down his window and identified himself, then asked his question. Instead he continued to act in a strange and unexplained manner, that is exactly what one would expect a criminally intended person to do. On the phone gz sounds aggravated, aggressive and hostile. Out of the car his body weight/muscle mass index, and employment stats say that he has the physical capacity to overcome the rail thin, under weight youth.

    • groans says:

      Wow…. They actually challenge the killer’s story!!

      And it looks like Knox has taken some pointers from Marinade Dave and LLMPapa.

  30. crazy1946 says:

    I wonder if it will dawn on MOM and West sometime before next Monday that there really will be a trial and they really are expected to make some valid defense for their client? Only 4 more business days till the start of the trial!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Nah … they haven’t yet started processing on that. (They’re still focused on trapping JN into some sort of forced need for a continuance.)

      Wonder if Fogen has his ties picked out for each day of his forthcoming miserable weeks to come? On the bright side, after the verdict comes down, he’ll no longer have a need for ties until civil action.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        yup, he’s got his ties picked out, specially so, as to match his straining at the seams, superhero underoos.

  31. Basically, this case took a long time to decide because it will have political implications and the three judges on this panel are more concerned about that than they are about the issue before them.

    That’s why it is a per curiam decision that attempts to split the baby giving a little something to each side.

    Difficult to respect judges who do that even though one should never be surprised when they do.

    They have to run for reelection, you know.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “split the baby giving a little something to each side.”

      Ah. Re-election. Makes total sense now. Doesn’t give me much faith in either our justice system or politics, but hey, I don’t have to live in FL, either.

    • LeaNder says:

      I didn’t like it when I read it, but I liked the rigid restriction in the end. You points are well taken.

      So ultimately they simply responded to the sharp political argument in the end that really shocked me, and did not stay with their main job a solid legal argument.

      thanks that was very interesting.

    • ladystclaire says:

      “They have to run for reelection,” I guess this explains why those involved in this decision, didn’t want to put their names on what they have permitted. this entire case, has been handled very wrong by this Florida Justice System. I have never seen another one like it, to where a murder defendant’s defense attorneys, are doing everything that a group of ignorant racist bigots are telling them to do.

      This defense has no business involving the public in this case in any way shape or form. when this man took over Fogen’s defense last April, he said he would not try this case in the media and, that is what he has been doing ever since. the man is a LIAR and, he’s not to be trusted. I pray that this bloated goat will not get away with killing this kid.

      For those who saw and heard more than they are willing to admit, these folks need to come out and tell it all. they need to do this because, they also see how Fogen is dragging his innocent unarmed victim through the mud. this is not fair at all. it seems the defendant has more rights than this victim and, somehow that just don’t seem right.

    • groans says:

      It’s one more example that proves the old adage: “Bad facts make bad law.”

  32. Two sides to a story says:

    I’m a little confused. On one hand the defense has not exhausted all its options to obtain information in other ways, and there’s an appellate court decision allowing them the deposition they want anyway, and yet none of the judges involved want their name on the decision. If the decision is a bit on the shaky side, why make it?

    Is it a damned if you do and damned if you don’t type of decision?

    Ultimately I don’t think ideposing Crump will make that much difference to the defense except in terms of donations – they’ll dramatize this to the hilt and will no doubt reach their goal of $75-120k that they set recently. They have another week to to tamper with the jury pool (and perhaps reap the whirlwind for it down the road).

    Does deposing Crump mean that the defense will ask for another continuance? I think I read in one of the last few threads that they can continue to depose witnesses if they have to even during the trial.

    • Does deposing Crump mean that the defense will ask for another continuance? I think I read in one of the last few threads that they can continue to depose witnesses if they have to even during the trial.

      Yes, they will likely ask for another continuance, which will be denied.

      Yes, they can depose Benjamin Crump after the trial has started. Judge Nelson can recess jury selection for a half day to permit it.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I agree with Professor.

      If and when the defense wants to depose Mr. Crump, I think Judge Nelson will set aside a few (e.g. five) hours for the deposition where she herself will also be present to intantly rule on objections. I think this will be the most effective way to dust the matter off the table.

      Given the stringent limitations imposed by the Appeals Court, no reasonable attorney would move ahead with the deposition, unless the keys to the asylum is in the hands of Beavis and Butthead (you know who they are). “It is going to be a looong hot summer”. Welcome to the asylum.

    • Malisha says:

      The Florida Bar should be up in arms about this. Particularly plaintiffs’ counsel in civil suits.

  33. ay2z says:

    WESH headlines the decision. LOVE your tie Ben.

    “The deposition contemplated by our opinion should be relatively short and straight forward,” the appeals ruling reads.

    That appeals court obviously doesn’t know Donald West.

    And you can bet your bottom dollar, that the defense will order and pay for a transcript ASAP, and almost as fast, get it out to the media so the public can see all the questions Ben’s lawyer refused to allow him to answer that the appeals court limited out of reach, anyway.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      So how much do these transcripts cost? Why has that been such a big deal to the defense?

      • Depends, but probably $7 to $10 per page.

        Adds up in a hurry.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Perhaps Crump should not give any simple answer to any question, and instead give long rambling answers. Eat up the money that the fools have given to then to waste!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Not that bad. All that expensive unneeded security would have paid for transcripts up the ying yang. So would not lying about your Paypal donations.

      • Trained Observer says:

        So on a cost basis (apart from wasting precious pre-trial time), O’Mara and West will hang themselves if they try to make Crump recreate his pre-kindergarten years onward. Serves ’em right.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The Appellate Court has said that they can’t see where, much more than what was obtained in the affidavit, would be obtainable by this deposition, which they’ve said should be extremely narrowly confined. They’ve placed their trust in Judge Nelson’s ability to see that it’s short and swift.

          My guess is Judge Nelson or Crumps Attorney will object, if MOM doesn’t move on, or if a string of his questions go into prohibited area, the Judge will rule that MOM has nothing further that’s permissible to learn and therefore declare the deposition at an end.

          He get’s to draw three objections in a row, no more, and it’s over! Even if he stays in the permitted area, but begins repeating his questions it’s over. Judge Nelson will not wait for MOM to declare that he’s finished, we know he’ll never do that. What he will do is try to pry into what Crump had for breakfast last week if he can. Oh, and he only gets one ridiculous question and it’s over for good then.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          MOM had better come uber prepared or he’s toast!

    • Nef05 says:

      Can the defense release depositions to the public?

  34. JustMe says:

    Good evening.. Is the Florida Court of Appeals setting a precedent by allowing this? If it does, attorneys who are representing a victim’s family are in big trouble worrying if they also will be subjected to a deposition if they do any kind of investigative work for their clients

    This is disturbing to me..

    • Me too, especially where there is a reluctance to arrest and prosecute a suspect for political or racial reasons as happened in this case.

      This decision may discourage other lawyers from getting involved in cases like these and making a difference.

      I’m actually pretty disgusted with this decision.

      • JustMe says:

        So this does set precedent.. Good lord… smh

        And no chance of appealing this to the Supreme Court? This is so not right..

      • ladystclaire says:

        I wouldn’t reside in the state of Florida for nothing and, nobody. this is terrible to say the least. Professor, I did give you a donation today and, I will give more in a couple of weeks. it’s a start for my part any ways.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The trouble with Florida Law is, as much as we realize there’s something wrong with the police for not arresting gz right away. The terrible thing is, if they had done that, gz might have won an immunity hearing and gone free anyway.

          You see, the problem is that, if they had made an immediate arrest, gz would have to be assigned a lawyer immediately to prepare for arraignment and bail motions. At the point where a lawyer gets involved, there would probably be no walk through, no half dozen versions, and with Wolfinger’s finger in the pie and Chief Bill Lee deciding which police get to testify for Wolfinger, it’s likely the lawyer would immediately file for an immunity hearing and with Wolfinger and Lee on his side, he’d probably win.

          So that’s just how screwed up these laws are. If you’re black in a state or county that’s a “sundown” area, you’re toast! But, believe me, now they all know the trick, across the state, that the thing to do is file charges really fast and have a quick immunity hearing, before any investigation can be effectively mounted. Making “Stand Your Ground” states into “Shall Kill” states.
          All they need is a “turn’em loose” judge.

  35. Some of the Court of Appeals stuff in any given case is like reading tea leaves, but to give this COA at least some benefit of doubt, there is at least the possibility that they are looking ahead in the case, not wanting to have to reverse and remand for a new trial, IF there is a conviction AND an appeal, on this issue.

    Per curiam though. Does look like a political decision from that point of view. Not that common.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      t”. . . . there is at least the possibility that they are looking ahead in the case, not wanting to have to reverse and remand for a new trial . . .”

      That’s a comforting thought and one I’ll focus upon. I asked some questions below, but your comment, Crane, is one of the answers.

    • Nef05 says:

      Sorry, C-S

      The post you replied to (re: waders, carte blanche, conflicted) was directly in response to a comment Rachael made about the outhouse. For some reason wordpress went wonky and none of the replies posted where they were supposed to. It wasn’t supposed to be a stand alone post, with an unknown subject. I was referring to outhouse posters, not to anyone here. Sorry for the confusion.

  36. Rachael says:

    “I expect defense counsel will push hard against the boundaries set by the Court of Appeals because they appear to be determined to portray Benjamin Crump as an evil mastermind who invented Dee Dee as part of a conspiracy to shakedown insurance companies for money at the expense of convicting an innocent man. This is utterly ridiculous treehouse madness, I know, but it is what it is.”


    • LeaNder says:

      That’s that a brilliant passage of an exquisite argument.

      I better don’t go over to look at Jeralyn Merritt’s comment, she will gloat. Or maybe not quite. I’ll check.

      • LeaNder says:

        Nothing after her fund-raiser support!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        She was away all weekend and probably catching up at work today. I’m sure she’ll have something to say about this later, or tomorrow. . . she wouldn’t let this go by without comment, I don’t think.

      • Malisha says:

        This “depose Crump” caper has been idiotic but at least they can’t say it was cause for an appeal because they weren’t allowed to depose the villain who caused the witch hunt against their poor innocent gunman-killer-unregretful-neighborhood-watch-protector-hero and when they find out that the reason Crump had to find DeeDee was that the police weren’t interested in finding any evidence that might force them to abandon their cover-up, it will look all the worse for the Fogenfans.

        And that’s what Jeralyn is: a Fogen groupie. A gunman-killer groupie. Lord Lord, what weirdness!

    • GirlP says:

      Well they have to create a show so Renee can report the terrible deeds committed by the actress DD who pretended to be on the phone with the victim and Crump. What else do they have nothing goes in GZ’s favor…I’m praying for a jury that is willing to pay attention to the forensics and the evidence before them and ignores the BS.

      • Malisha says:

        Nothing they can develop in the deposition of Crump will have any effect on the evidence. Crump had never HEARD of Fogen until well after the killing was done.

    • ic2fools says:

      That’s if OM gets’ a chance too. Mr. Blackwell my file an appeal delaying that ‘deposition’.

      The other side is Mr. Crump may chose to sit for that depo just to make more a fool of defense. OM reputation with court is shot all to hell now.

  37. Ezz-Thetic says:

    I don’t know how O’Mara sleeps at night.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Photos taken of him a year ago compared to more recently suggest he’s lost a few winks.

      • Malisha says:

        Big pouches under his eyes.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          malisha says

          Big pouches under his eyes.

          yup and as one who has studied to become a makeup artist, post disability, i can assure you he’s snitching a bit of his wife’s concealer for the area most days. not that there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just the wrong shade.

        • ic2fools says:

          And big ole’ pouches under Fogens’ belt too….

  38. Operacarla says:


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