Clueless in Orlando

Wednesday, May 15, 2013

Good evening everyone.

Tonight I am going to follow-up on my post last week explaining the purpose of a Frye hearing, Zimmerman: Pssst hey buddy what’s a Frye hearing.

I said,

The issue Judge Nelson would have to decide, assuming she decides to hold a Frye hearing, is whether the methodologies used by the state’s experts are generally accepted by audiologists as capable of producing accurate and reliable results.

The Frye test has been described as a counting-heads test because it does not require the judge to understand the theory or methodology at issue. The judge need only count the heads of the experts in the particular field and decide whether they generally accept the methodology.

I concluded,

The glaring, and I believe fatal, omission in O’Mara’s motion for a Frye hearing is the absence of any supporting affidavits from experts in audiology that one or both of the methodologies used are not generally accepted by audiologists as capable of producing accurate and reliable results.

Nobody gives a damn about what the non-expert lawyer thinks. He is not qualified to express an opinion about general acceptance of these methodologies.

Therefore, I would deny his motion for a Frye hearing.

The State objected to a Frye hearing on the ground that the defense request lacked sufficient specificity to identify the basis for the defense request and, in any event, the Frye rule does not apply in this case because the technology/methodology used by its experts is not new. They correctly noted that the Frye rule only applies to new or novel scientific evidence. This is an additional valid reason for the court to deny the motion for a Frye hearing.

The defense has also filed a bizarre motion that would permit the defense experts to testify by video conferencing from remote locations. O’Mara basically pleads poverty in support of his request by complaining that the defense cannot afford to pay their round trip transportation, hotel and food expenses.

I call this request “bizarre” because the trial date is less than 30 days away and he has not identified his expert(s) or provided an offer of proof regarding what their testimony would be. He has not even identified the technology/methodology that he is attacking or set forth a basis for his attack.

He just wants a Frye hearing, just because.

Apparently, he recently told a reporter for the Orlando Sentinel that he was surprised by the claim of one of the State’s experts identifying Trayvon Martin as the source of the shriek. O’Mara reportedly said he would have to ask for a continuance to find an expert who will disagree with the State’s experts.

Judge Nelson is not going to grant a continuance so that he can shop around for an expert who will say what he wants the expert to say.

O’Mara does not appear to understand the Frye rule or whether it even applies in this case.

Is he clueless in Orlando?


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212 Responses to Clueless in Orlando

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Here’s the new international tally from my evidence pile:
    United States 508
    Russia 77
    Spain 74
    Germany 56
    Taiwan 20
    Canada 13
    France 9
    Netherlands 9
    China 8
    United Kingdom 4

    I’m sure it looks even merrier when and if Professor posts his tally.

  2. George Zimmerman’s Attorneys to Ask for Trial Delay: Report

    New evidence has defense attorneys wanting delay in trial: Report

    A new report from a state expert concerning audio evidence in the Travon Martin shooting will have George Zimmerman seeking a motion to delay his upcoming murder trial, Zimmerman’s attorneys told WESH.

    The report, made public Tuesday, claims screams heard in a 911 call came from Martin. A separate report claims the shouts were a mix of Martin and Zimmerman.

    Attorneys prosecuting Zimmerman on a charge of second-degree murder hired the audio experts to compare samples of Zimmerman’s and Martin’s voices with the shouts from the 911 calls phoned in by neighbors of Zimmerman.

    The residents of the gated community heard the neighborhood watch leader and the Miami teen during the encounter last year.

    Zimmerman’s attorneys want time to challenge the validity of the report, WESH reported. The second-degree murder trial is scheduled to begin in June. Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty claiming self defense.

    George Zimmerman has sued NBCUniversal, the parent company of NBC 6 South Florida, for defamation. The company has strongly denied his allegations.

    • Jun says:

      I believe the experts will say Fogen was not yelling for help, but howling in pleasure

      I hear him howl in pleasure on the phone call

      • Rachael says:

        Why would you say that??!!! The only one howling was Trayvon, howling in pain and fear.


        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Rachael –

          re: “Why would you say that??!!! ”

          Rachael, that’s Jun’s spiky sense of humor. Relax …

      • Rachael says:

        Okay, sorry. I guess I’m getting a bit edgy waiting for this trial. I feel like I can’t wait any longer!!!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        This is not “New Evidence”, this is merely old evidence that has been analyzed by the prosecution and should have already been analyzed by the defense.

        Their lack of expert analysis is not due to belated discovery but is due to defense strategy therefore the motion is DENIED!!!

      • Jun says:

        I am saying

        Trayvon was screaming for help

        but I do hear right before the shot, Fogen, howl in pleasure before shooting Trayvon as Trayvon begged for his life

    • ladystclaire says:

      O’mara the sneaky B*****D is trying any and every damn thing to delay the start of this trial. this just goes to show that, he knows his client is *GUILTY* as hell and, he also know he has about as much of a chance as the proverbial snowball in hell, of proving that his POS of a client acted in self defense when he killed this child in cold blood. as I have said many many times, this attorney along with his co-counsel West, both should be disbarred for all of the lying under handed tactics which they have been involved in since day one.

      I can’t help but wonder, how much trouble SunDunce Cracker might be in along with some of his faithful fellow racist. they are for sure being watched by the feds and, O’mara definitely knew all about the doxing that they were doing and, he had the audacity to blame the prosecution, because they wouldn’t give him information about DeeDee and, the names she uses on her social media accounts, as well as her address along with the addresses of Trayvons family.

      Yep, these two are as sleazy as they come!

    • racerrodig says:

      “New” evidence my ass……what, did they finally figure out Fogen is lying out his ass ?? !! ??

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It is like they have a totaled car and are trying to salvage the radio knobs thinking they might be of value.

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s a great one !!!!! The one I use to describe a disaster is “We need to jack up the radiator cap & put a another car under it”

          I just can’t fathom what Fogen ~ O’ Mara & West talk about at this point. It’s undisputed at this point it sucks to be Fogen. What could they talking about ??

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        • racerrodig says:

          Your Honor, we need more time to change our strategy…..see, our client has a new version of the events that night. See, since there is no DNA of his to speak of on the gun, he says it wasn’t him.

          Now I know he admitted he aimed and fired one shot, but in light of this new evidence, we need more time.

          What was that Your Honor……go pound what ???

      • Jun says:

        LMAO that wont work because even if Omara tries to deny that shit, Fogen’s DNA is on the gun and there is a eyewitness who places him at the crime scene, and they have ballistics LOL

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      A motion that will be denied! This information isn’t new, nor did the material it’s extracted from, just appear yesterday. This is the same material that was in the hands of the defense for almost a year. It sat analyzed for over a year, simply because the defense decided it would be better to waste their time, preparing for television interview, instead of working the case.

      Instead of preparing for the trip to appear on Hannity, for example, and wasting tens of thousands of dollars on unnecessary security in an effort to garner public sympathy [which didn’t work], the defense should have hired their own audio experts to work with these exemplars.

      Now, because of the defenses own tardiness and irresponsibility, they hope the judge will excuse their error by granting them more time to waste. I sincerely doubt any appeals court will deem the court to be at fault for the defenses failures, thus the trial date will hold. The lack of defense ability to effectively challenge the prosecutions audio experts will be put down to “defense strategy”. Neither the court nor the appellate division will deem themselves to be, required to repair defects caused by defense strategies.

      If the defense believed that their failure to hire their own experts, would create an issue, deserving a sure fire continuance, they were wrong. The defect is caused by an irresponsible defense strategy that gambled that, either way, their own experts or lack of same would not be an issue so critical that, it could not be overcome if an adverse ruling were to force the issue. Thus the defense must stand or fail on their strategic choices.

  3. colin black says:


    Dont worry isnt jun10th jury selection ?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      could be colin – guess i better find out before denying my dear mother who has taken good care of me through 2 bouts with cancer. really, i will drive her if i can’t pass it off to the bro.

      • ay2z says:

        Yes! You will only miss some jury selection stuff. And that’s an easy catch up, if it’s even worth it.

        We’ll hold a first class seat open for you upon your return!

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        Faux, how do you set your phone up as a modem?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          vickie — feel free to email me at depending on your make/model, it can be more or less difficult, but i would be happy to point you or anyone else in the right direction 🙂

      • gblock says:


        A few years ago, I was called as a potential juror for a complicated federal case which (like this one) had a very large jury pool. What happened on the first day that I went in is that the judge discussed some stuff about procedures and expectations with the potential jurors, they read the indictment, and we spent a couple of hours filling out a lengthy questionnaire. We came back about a week later for actual jury selection.

        You are probably pretty safe driving your mother to the doctor on June 10th.

  4. fauxmccoy says:

    oh dear, it appears as if i am a bad, bad daughter. my 75 year old mother just called to let me know the date of a dr’s appt i had offered to drive her to in the nearest city (a 200 mile round trip). the date is june 10 and i had to say that i have had something scheduled on my calendar for about a year now. i told her what it was, that i felt like a complete jackass, but that if my brother could not do it, then i would be happy to wifi it down the hiway if she held the laptop. (oh please, baby bro, be avilable!)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I know the feeling Fauxie. I’m the mainline for transportation for my elderly mom to med appts. I’d probably do and say the same thing, oh dear. I vowed after a vivid dream of Trayvon to “witness” and do whatever I could to tell his story. It would be hard to miss that first day . . . but there will be recordings though – and perhaps a trial delay (I hope not).

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Not to worry I’m sure our video enabled friends will have it recorded and posted almost as soon as it happens. You might miss a bit, but by nightfall you’ll be all caught up.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          oh no, i’ve gotten the hubster to set my phone up as a modem for both my tablet and new macbookpro. it’ll be wifi on the hiway with mom holding the monitor 🙂 cause i am that geek!

    • @Fauxmccoy

      You’re a good daughter.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        SG2 says

        You’re a good daughter.

        awwww, thank you sweetpea – am still checking with the bro to see if we can share the driving though.

  5. ay2z says:

    I posted this Shellie case docket update and part of the rstuz repoprt about the new witness ‘list’.

    In fact, there are two additions to the docket, stutz only mentions the one, not the supplemental addition.

    This opens depositions up for the state doesn’t it? But if I remember right, doeesn’t allow the defense to depose their own witnesses still.

    Is this a tactic by defense, to see what they can learn from the state in depositions of their own defense witnesses?




    • Rachael says:

      Beautiful, ain’t it? I can’t wait.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      That’s right!!! You are reminding everyone of exactly what pictures the police decided to take of what parts of gz’s clothing.

      These pictures say: “We noticed that there was grass and debris clinging to the wet fronts of gz’s shoes”, “we also noted the absence of wetness and debris on the back of gz’s shoes and pants.”

      Now ask yourself why would the police note these items and consider them important enough to document? Could it be that they do not conform to claims that gz pinned on his back, on wet grass, in pouring rain, and wriggling around, moving his body to grind his way away from the concrete sidewalk?

      I’m going to step out here and make a leap of faith by saying I think so!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        There is a point beyond which intuition becomes anti climatic. 😆 like, for instance, when everything is already in the bag! 😀

      • Soulcatcher says:

        I guess I can probably answer this myself, but didn’t any of the officers or investigators look and take pictures of where the the stuggle took place. Since it was raining or had rained, I would assume the grass would be matted or muddied with all the weight and shimmying going on. George should be all wet on his back, and knees when he is on trayvons back. I see a few pictures of things found in certain areas, and a picture of Trayvon covered up, is that all they really have, or is there more we haven’t seen? Did they just asume that a black thug was killed, and did as little as possible? I mean really, did they knock on a few doors and stand around and shoot the shit, or what.

        With all those witnesses who all heard or saw parts of what was going on, it’s hard to believe not one had the balls to help. On top of that, it’s hard to believe with all the reports taken, and you know how neighbors like to chit chat, they all know each others business, that not one hearing a young black male was killed, not one person said hey there’s a black kid that stays of has been staying a couple of doors down at the end. We came from one of the worst neighborhoods in Sacto, one of those gun free zone, where probably everyone owned a gun or three, and If I asked one of my neighbors if they saw something, they could tell you who spit on the sidewalk, what time it was, and what they were wearing. They’d say yeah I saw so and so riding his bike with a refrigerator tied to the back. They would not be closing any door, hiding out, they would be up in the mix. The police station was 2 blocks down.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Good points Soulcatcher, we don’t know if any of these neighbors owned guns themselves. You’d think that with all the commotion and the gunshot, they’d have gone and gotten their gun and at least had it handy, before venturing out into a dark area, where a gunshot had been heard, and before any police arrived.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good one.

  6. fauxmccoy says:

    i wanted to pass along this link to another legal blog that i follow which often discusses the upcoming zimmerman trial (while not providing too much competition for you, dear professor).

    debbie hines is a practicing attorney in the DC area who has also been a prosecutor. she is very much on the martin side of the equation. i enjoy her articles and hope others will find them of benefit as well. even when her articles are not about this case, they are worth reading.

    joebob says check it out.

  7. ay2z says:

    And, defense says it will ask for delay.

    “Will judge delay Zimmerman trial after new evidence?
    Zimmerman defense to ask for more time
    UPDATED 9:02 PM EDT May 16, 2013”

    Wesh’s legal analyst says it’s normal and should be granted because it’s not a delay tactic, a normal procedure. Jeff Deen says the defense has the rights to test and challange with Frye.

    Wesh says it will have more to the story on Friday.

    • ay2z says:

      Jeff Deen says 100 of 100 defemse ;aawyers would be asking for just this ability to challenge.

      State, WESH says, claims there’s nothing new about the science.

    • Xena says:


      “Will judge delay Zimmerman trial after new evidence?

      That media report is misleading. There is no new evidence. It was stated in court that the defense has its own expert voice analyst. Both parties were suppose to turn over the results to the other party within 24 hours of receiving it/them. Just because the defense’s expert did not reach the conclusion O’Mara wants does not mean that the State’s experts have produced “new evidence.” Effectively, the State’s evidence is the ONLY evidence of voice analysis.

      IIRC, BDLR stated in a hearing in October that there might be two voices on that recording. O’Mara and West have wasted time following Zidiot conspiracies, impugning DeeDee and having a hard-on for Crump, rather than building GZ’s defense.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        So where is the info from the def experts? I thought they had to turn over the info even if it is not favorable towards the defendant.

        • Xena says:


          So where is the info from the def experts? I thought they had to turn over the info even if it is not favorable towards the defendant.

          Judge Nelson ordered that both sides turn over the expert reports withing 24 hours after receiving them. If O’Mara received a report and turned it over, he has not released it to the public.

          Also, seems like O’Mara didn’t get much in response to the subpoena to 7-Eleven because he has not announced taking any further depositions of new witnesses.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Once gz admitted to MOM that those guys at the 711 were working with him, MOM decided he had to drop it or risk finding new incriminating evidence. I think they’re going to find a connection between these guys and either gz or Trayvon. We will see.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            I think they’re going to find a connection between these guys and either gz or Trayvon. We will see.

            You probably already know that I suspect a connection between the 3 guys and GZ, associated with the arrest of Burgess. GZ had to do something to prevent the others from going to jail — find a fall guy.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            As you know I’m with you on the idea that there is some connection.

            I also find it very suspicious what Rene Stutzman did in her reporting about Ranesberg(burg). From the police report he is the white guy with the three blacks. From her reports, however, he is a black guy who is 21 and a home owner, who she later identifies as being just a black guy visiting his girlfriend. He also seems to know the kids in the area of Trayvon’s backyard. Then poof, he just disappears, even after having been arrested and taken to the station no further information can be found about him.

            Hardly a wonder knowing just who R. Stutzman is.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        I have had the craziest idea the past few days that O’Mara, seeing the defense has exactly NO defense, and that O’Mara has not only NOT been paid, isn’t going to BE paid, and faces debts relating to this case (example: the Zimms’ unpaid security detail invoice) AND, once fogen is convicted, O’Mara then to pick up the pieces of his shattered law practice, has this career strategy:

        He puts fogen on the stand to testify.

        After all, it’s what fogen demands.

        Jury returns a GUILTY verdict well within five days.

        Judge sentences fogen to life with possibility of parole after 35 years.

        O’Mara sees this strategy as a career-saver. The public will have seen fogen AS HE IS, immediately turn sympathetic towards O’Mara, saying, “With a client like that there’s NO WAY he could win that case.”

        O’Mara is off the hook for “losing” this case.

        He just had the worst client in America.

        Not O’Mara’s fault.

        O’Mara’s reputation saved.

        • Xena says:


          He puts fogen on the stand to testify.

          After all, it’s what fogen demands.

          I don’t think so, not because GZ doesn’t want to talk, but he doesn’t want to be questioned. The second bond hearing, he wanted to address the court without cross-examination. At the last hearing regarding his waiver of a pre-trial immunity hearing, O’Mara attempted several alternatives to having GZ answer questions in open court.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Still, I think putting fogen on the stand is O’Mara’s only Hail Mary pass, the last resort, in O’Mara’s wan hope to rehabilitate his reputation.

            Has to show that his client was impossible to represent, ergo it was not O’Mara’s fault that the trial ended so disastrously for his client.

            With fogen’s narcissistic personality, it would be easy to convince fogen, “You can do it, George!”

            Told you this was a wild fantasy, Xena.
            I must be on drugs, or sumpin’ …

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s a positive spin, no doubt but in reality……remember I love ya……

          Fogen gets to testify….as you stated.

          Fogen destroys what little chance he had

          O’ Mara whines in front of courthouse

          Fogen is convicted

          Jury / Judge impose maximum sentence

          O’ Mara whines in front of couthouse, calls Prosecution names

          Zidiots rip O’ Mara for not filing for Immunity in May 2012

          O’ Mara promises to appeal.

          O’ Mara attempts to file “Post Trial Immunity Motion”

          World laughs at O’ Mara

          O’ Mara see’s prctice swirling into the abyss

          All potential clients see O’ Mara as a FogenPhoole Dream Chaser, swear off ever hiring him.

          O’ Mara tries to get into Court TV commentary / Analyst

          All Networks decline citing “Frivoulous NBC Lawsuit” – we’re “One of Them”

          O’ Mara cries for months, never visits Fogen in Prison

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You forgot: O’Mara sets up frozen orange juice stand on I-95 Orlando.

          • racerrodig says:

            Opppppppps my bad.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep… “Those were the days my friend we thought they’d never end, we sang and laughed forever and a day…”

            MOM will soon be known as the “kiss of death” law firm, as the legal profession begins using his name as a synonym for stupidity, absurd motions and abject failure.

          • racerrodig says:

            And if he had filed for Immunity wayyyyyy back last April / May, he may have gotten away with it but Nooooooooooo,

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Right you are Racer. Let’s recap for the late comers.

            Very early on in this case, around the date of the shooting 2/26/12, there was very little evidence available, with which to prove much of a case against gz’s SYG claims. [GZ is also identified by lowercase letters to reduce his importance, and the composite name “foggen/foggenhatz/foggenaught/etc.,” which is a stand for “forget his name” an ancient derisive against terrible people who should be forgotten not memorialized] “SYG” is a nickname that has become a popular way to describe a number of statutes which collectively give a person claiming self defense, the right to be immunized against trial, against civil liability, and to recover the costs, caused by any proceedings against themselves. An immunity hearing can be won, based upon a presentation of a mere “preponderance of evidence”.

            The night of the killing, Detectives Serino and Singleton questioned gz and found his story to be puzzling. My guess is they had reason to doubt that such a slightly built teen, could be such a physical terror such as to be an immediate threat to life and limb as an unarmed attacker. They did not know who Trayvon was at that time, but they learned his identity the next day when his father reported him missing.

            Serino and Singleton took gz out to the RATL and had him reenact the events of that night, several anomalies stood out in the tale as told by gz. He was alternately in fear of Trayvon then not in fear. Talking to witnesses while in the process of receiving his claimed lethal beating. One witness actually claims to have seen just that, a terrible beating being administered to gz, but, upon further consideration he decided to recant and admit that he had neither seen nor heard any fighting at all. But that recantation would come much later.

            When MOM [Mark O’Mara, gz’s attorney] took over the case, there was a lot less evidence developed and tchoupi’s analysis wasn’t yet available [see: master revisable timeline] A quick read through will give orientation, then the links will provide additional discovery.

            So, Racer is right, gz’s best chance at winning an immunity hearing was at the earliest opportunity in this case. The Chief of Police Lee and the County Prosecutor Wolfinger’s refusal to charge, actually turned against their intentions, because, without an arrest gz did not require an attorney, which he would have needed to plead for a low bail. So, instead, gz’s inability to absorb the material in his law class, led to his complete unfettered cooperation with the police, allowing the case against himself to be solidly built. Something he helped along by telling obvious lies and creating stupid excuses, so ridiculous that clowns would be too ashamed utter them.

            To be sure there are people who still stand in gz’s corner, but they have no evidence, no testimony and no facts that support their claims. As you read through the case materials, gz supporters, for instance, will claim that Trayvon beat gz and that Trayvon’s hands bear witness to this by being bloody and bruised. In the master revisable timeline you will find a link to the autopsy report which you can read for yourself. You will then be able to decide, whether or not gz received a terribly lethal beating at the hands of Trayvon Martin.

            I now return you to your regular scheduled reading.

          • racerrodig says:

            Well said. If Lee had arrested him that night, amazingly, it would have been the best thing for Fogen.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, Zidiots are, after all Zidiots! Shows how much Wolfinger knows about the law, eh? By not charging gz, they made it impossible for gz to afford a lawyer, while at the same time, they made him think that he didn’t need one either. Once his first lawyers learned how much gz had said, and they couldn’t get in touch with him because they wanted him to shut up. and he didn’t want to. They quit.

            Enter O’Mara! A divorce lawyer who thought this would be easy, just demonize the victim and poof, the charges would disappear. Then wowed by the donations, they went on a beg-a-thon instead of putting together a case. Now this lack of work and attention to the tools of their trade, is coming back to haunt them.

            MOM is crying and pleading to postpone the trial because the prosecution has been working hard developing their case. Hey O’Mara, if you were ready for an immunity hearing, you were also ready for trial. You said that the only reason you waived it was because you stood a better chance in front of a jury. That means that you are indeed ready for trial.

            The case is not going to be held up while you attempt to raise funds, it will not be held up so that you can search for experts you should already have had. You’ve had a year to find experts, if you don’t have them now, the reasonable assumption is that, no expert is willing to testify in a way that’s useful to you, because the facts and evidence simply don’t support your intended claims.

            The trial cannot be postponed simply because the defense cannot find what it needs, based on claims that it might exist. To get a postponement, the defense needs to show that it needs time to get their hands on something they can prove actually exists.

          • racerrodig says:

            As the line from “Bridge on the River Kwai” goes “…madness….sheer madness”

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, that was very sickening for O’mara to try preventing Fogen’s having to answer questions that only he should answer before the Judge. what the hell does he think will happen if Fogen has to answer a few simple questions?

        By him doing BS like he did that day and the time before at the bond hearing, just goes to show that he knows his client is guilty and has done nothing but lie. I wish they could put a damn paper bag over his head, when the trial starts because I’m sick of looking at him.

        All he had to do on that night was, leave Trayvon alone because he was minding his own business but, NO he had to stick his nose where it didn’t belong, and now he is going to pay for his actions.

        • Xena says:


          By him doing BS like he did that day and the time before at the bond hearing, just goes to show that he knows his client is guilty and has done nothing but lie.

          O’Mara also probably knows that GZ has a temper. He doesn’t like being questioned by people he doesn’t like, and he doesn’t like the prosecutors neither Judge Nelson.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I didn’t know that Fogen admitted to O’mara, that he had some connection with the three guys at the 7/11. if I make no mistake, it was three right? also, what was their connection with Fogen and, do you think they will be called to testify at trial?

        • Xena says:


          @Xena, I didn’t know that Fogen admitted to O’mara, that he had some connection with the three guys at the 7/11.

          That was my own speculation. The way I see it, Zidiots do not develop their theories on their own. They have the help of the Zimmermans. GZ uses an ounce of truth with a ton of lies.
          So yeah — I speculate that GZ is connected to the 3 guys at the 7-Eleven because Zidiots assume that they would violate law by purchasing a cigar for a minor.

          … do you think they will be called to testify at trial?

          Chances are that the receipts for 7-Eleven are in their corporate offices, the accounting for credit card purchases was reconciled, and receipts then destroyed or digitized by calendar quarter, so O’Mara has received nothing from them.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Considering that when Burgess was arrested, he was with two other black guys and one white guy named Ransberg(burg). So, with Burgess in jail that would leave Ransberg(burg) the white guy with only two other blacks. Now at 711 there’s one white guy with dreadlocks and two black guys, all of whom keep their faces covered, and keep Trayvon waiting outside until they finish and leave. Only then does Trayvon start back home.

          So, there’s pretty strong evidence (if circumstantial) that these three were the guys arrested with Burgess then released. So, why would Trayvon, who had already gone outside the store, wait some 30 seconds for these guys to arrive? Instead of simply leaving and heading for home immediately? If Trayvon didn’t know them, why did he wait patiently outside the store for several minutes, until they came back outside, before he started for home?

          On his way to the store Trayvon mentions to DD that he wishes his mother were there with him. Why would he say such a thing if he were just on an idle time killing trip to the store? Such a statement bespeaks some kind of dread or misgivings about things up ahead.

          These three are not very savory characters and they are just the kind of people a guy like Trayvon would dread having to meet with under the given conditions. I doubt Trayvon would have even gone to the store just for iced tea. Although he told DD that Chad asked for skittles, and that was his reason for going to the store. Chad tells his mother that Trayvon told him that he was going to the store and ASKED HIM if he wanted anything, he replied skittles. Why the obfuscation over this simple trip to the store? Why would he tell DD that Chad asked him to go get candy, when it turns out that he had asked Chad?

          So there’s very probably more to these three guys and Trayvon’s trip to the store than meets the eye.

  8. Sanford residents say George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin case more than a trial

    SANFORD, Fla. –
    The city of Sanford is making final preparations for the George Zimmerman trial, which residents say is a critical moment for their city.

    Residents tell Local 6 the Zimmerman trial goes beyond 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s death and that a lot is on the line with Zimmerman’s fate.

    “Quite a bit has been going on in Sanford and there are a lot of people that are angry about things that have been going on in the city,” said Faye Henderson of the Sanford Museum and Welcome Center.

    Terri Moore, who was born and raised in Sanford, says the trial represents not only Martin’s death but all of the unsolved murders in Sanford that residents feel police didn’t do enough.

    “Trayvon’s not the first black boy who’s been killed in Florida. Especially here in Sanford we have young kids killed everyday,” Moore said.

    While it may not happen every day, the crime has gotten the community’s attention. At the memorial in the center of Sanford, the names of the victims of unresolved murders are prominently displayed, with Martin’s at the top.

    Some believe that, whether it’s right or wrong, portions of their community are pinning years of perceived injustices on a single trial–Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.

    “We’re getting to the point now that we’re trying to have trust in our police department again,” said resident Cindy Philemon. “So it’s like if we don’t have trust in our police department and then we don’t have trust in the government system then we will really be in trouble.”

    • Jun says:

      There def needs change

      This was such an obvious case of murder and the chief simply stood by as if this kid’s life was expendable just so that selfish bastard Fogen

      When police act like they did at the beginning of this murder, it causes people to lose faith

      We have witness 18 who witnessed the murder from the confrontation forward and the police chief does nothing

      THe officers and Serino state to push the case for murder but the chief still does nothing

      The way the cops acted are no different than cops in the ghetto

      Back in the days, cops in the ghettos, used to be bribed by gangsters and pin shit on people in the ghetto and did not care about all the pain and violence in the ghetto

      I guess in this case, I can only place blame on the chief as Serino and a few officers wanted to pursue charges

  9. colin black says:

    Rachael says:

    May 15, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    It makes no sense to me. It isn’t like he just found out about the scream. That was part of the case from day one, as soon as they found out they could hear it in the background. You would think that would have been one of the very first things he’d have gotten an expert for, especially after Trayvon’s mom and dad both said it was Trayvon and after GZ initially said it didn’t even sound like him decided it was and his father said it sounded like him when he was a teenager (?). You’d have thought the FIRST thing he’d do would be to find an expert who would say it was GZ. Did he really believe it was? I mean the screams stop after the gunshot. And even if he DID believe it was GZ, he’d HAVE to know that others wouldn’t so he best get some experts.

    So either he could not find anyone willing to say it was GZ

    He could not find anyone he could afford to pay to say it was GZ

    Or he has known all along it wasn’t and he was hoping it would all somehow go away.

    Whatever the case, the guy seems to be totally inept. I keep thinking maybe he is just totally pretending to be stupid and is going to surprise us at the trial when he goes into a phone booth and comes out as superlawyer, but I’m going with the totally inept for now.

    But surely he must know he is.

    So why is he doing it? I still think he is purposely trying to throw the case or something. But I can’t quite figure out why. I know Professor says otherwise and that he’s seen worse, but I’m just not so sure.

    Yes Ive seen worse Aileen Wournrous Puplic Defender Steve Glazier the worst.

    Closely followed by J Baez..

    But both thease had an excuse for being abysmal.

    Steve Glazier smoked a joint for breakfast an 4 on a 230 k drive.
    An J Baez had only passed the bar three years an was tottaly inexperianced.

    O Maras excuse Is his client I suppose you cannot explain the inexplicable.
    You can not defend the undefendable.

    And you cant fix the kind of stupid foggagge has.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It appears the defense thought it was enough that Fogen and his family say it was Fogen screaming.

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Of course, when gz did the reenactment at the crime scene, he had NO idea that the desperate screams for help had been captured on the 911 tape of Witness 11.

    Well, when gz explained to the investigators about W6 coming out, George unknowingly provided the investigators with a key incriminating verb…..the word “SAID”.

    George did NOT say, “I screamed” when he sought W6’s help. He tells the investigators, “I SAID ‘help me’.

    Begin at timestamp 5:14

    Timestamp 5:17
    Zimmerman: And I SAID, “Help me. Help me”.
    And, he said, “I’ll call 911”
    I SAID, “No, Help me. I need help.”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He talks about “screaming” for help earlier in this video….why did he say later in this video (in communicating with W6), “I SAID
      ‘help me'” Does anyone think that this is a slip of the tongue or am I just looking to closely at the word “SAID”?

      • Bill Taylor says:

        not only that but how could he talk to anyone? martin was in the process of punching him 30 times, bashing his head over a dozen times and smothering him??????

        how again did he talk to anyone and how did that person or persons NOT SEE this horrific beating as it happened?

        and how was such a beating taking place but NO SOUNDS of it on the 911 calls?

        when you examine his entire story i cant grasp how any rational sane person could believe any of it?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          W#6 says that he saw no beating occuring, he turned his back for barely half a minute when he heard a shot fired. Thus, to hear him explain, after he recanted his MMA style beating, there was barely 30 seconds left for fighting of any kind to occur. gz’s story just keeps failing and failing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gz’s story is a total failure. Does he want us to believe that (timestamp 5:40) Trayvon said “You’re going to die tonight, m…fker.” How crazy is that?

        No, I think gz made that point when gz said, “These shall be”.
        Xena suggested that meant “These shall be your last minutes.”

        • racerrodig says:

          “No, I think gz made that point when gz said, “These shall be”.
          Xena suggested that meant “These shall be your last minutes.”

          Or it could be “These shall be…….your last words”

        • Xena says:

          “These shall be …” is also a statement that recounts previous statements. For instance, “What are you doing here?” “Stop resisting and come with me.” “Why did you put your hand in your waistband?” “Why were you running?” “Where did you think you were going?” “These shall be” … my last questions before I ….”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Wow, we came to the same conclusion, “These shall be your final moments”. gz is really something loathsome.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      No concern at all to get medical help for the victim. None.

      • Leisa says:

        John didn’t bother to help the victim either. I still want to know why John was allowed to stand right in the middle of the group do SPD as well as being inside crime scene tape. He would also be the gentleman Officer Raimondo asked to get him some plastic wrap and Vaseline to seal the wound. I want to know what he heard that night…… IMO there is something very wrong with a man who would take a picture of a dead boy. Just cannot fathom it.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      3:22 I went to go grab my cellphone (looks down at right hip).
      5:29 “I had my ce… I had my firearm on my right side hip.” Cellphone/firearm confusion again.

      • Xena says:

        @Cercando Luce.

        Cellphone/firearm confusion again.

        Yes! Something I noticed — in his re-enactment, GZ goes into when he “felt” Trayvon saw the gun. In Hannity’s interview, GZ was asked when Trayvon saw the gun. It’s when he is questioned before taking the voice stress test that I discerned GZ separates when Trayvon “saw” the gun, as opposed to when GZ unholstered his gun — and the technician caught on to it too.

        It was like a light bulb went off in GZ’s head that as long as no one saw him with the gun out, that he could get away with saying he did not unholster it until he “felt” Trayvon saw it. Well, he got confused on Hannity’s and said that he was “terrified” that the cops would arrive and see him holding his gun and shoot him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Good catch with in noticing gz’ slip – “I had my CE…I had my firearm on my right side hip.”

        If you go to timestamp 30:44 (6:49:29 PM), you will be able to see George demonstrate going for his phone.

        I think you will notice how SIMILAR the movement of his hand going for his phone is to the location he demonstrated going for his gun in the reenactment video.


      • tonydphotog says:

        He looks like he’s going for his gun every time he said he was reaching for his cell phone. It’s pretty obvious!

        A more obvious lie is when he starts with “To be honest with you”. “To be honest with you, the whole time I forgot I had the gun on me”

        Of course, he was told that he had a broken nose, and needed stitches.(36:30) Yet, the EMT and officer decided, without asking Fogen, that he didn’t need medical attention.

        40:45 – He made no mention of looking for an address, but that he went to look for Trayvon. He wanted to keep Trayvon in his sight until the police arrived.

        Also, he was able to see Trayvon turn right down the dog walk because he had his headlights illuminating that area. Didn’t he say his car was parked in the opposite direction?

        He didn’t know any of the cops, any of his neighbors, any street names, any addresses, and forgot he had his gun on him!

        Also, after listening to his NEN call, I thought I could hear fogen loading his gun just before he exits his car. I had thought all along that it was his seat belt making that noise, but now I’m not sure. Sorry, if this has already been discussed.

        • Shari says:

          I know the sound you are talking about. I can’t say for sure but it really is frightening to think that was him loading his gun. I thought it was his seat belt as well.He was determined that the “asshole” was not going to get away. What an evil evil human.

    • Donna Flores says:

      He said after he spread Trayvon’s hands and had him facing down someone with a flash light came up to him. But if I remember correctly, I don’t know what witness number she is, but she said she saw George Zimmerman stand up and come back towards her, towards the start of the T, where the tree is and that’s where he met up with the first witness John. Then they walked back talked and took pictures and that’s when the officer shows up

  11. George Zimmerman’s wife files trial witnesses list that includes sister-in-law, brother-in-law,0,2944284.story

    SANFORD – George Zimmerman’s wife, who is facing a perjury charge, has filed a witness list that includes her sister-in-law and brother-in-law, the couple who helped her husband set up a fund-raising website and manage the money that came flooding in.

    Shellie Zimmerman is the wife of 29-year-old former Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman, who is charged with murdering Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, in Sanford Feb. 26, 2012.

    She also is accused of a crime: perjury. Prosecutors contend she lied during her husband’s April 20, 2012, bond hearing when she said told a judge they were broke.

    At the time of the hearing, the website had raised more than $130,000 in just over two weeks, according to prosecution records.

    In phone calls from the Seminole County Jail, Zimmerman directed his wife to move money from his bank account into hers, into his sister’s and cash into a safety deposit box, according to prosecution records.

    The defense witness list, filed Monday by defense attorney Kelly Sims, includes eight names. Sims said they are all state witnesses.

    They include George Zimmerman’s sister, her husband; two credit union employees, a court reporter, a Lake Mary woman and two investigators with the office of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey.

    Shellie Zimmerman, 26, is to be tried after her husband. His second-degree murder trial is slated to begin June 10.

    • groans says:

      As always, thanks for keeping us informed, SouthernGirl2!

    • Trained Observer says:

      So do you think SIL and BIL will attempt to save her bacon by saying she knew nothing, was totally out of the loop as the donor loot came rolling in? Interesting that Sims’ list of eight apparently is entirely of State witnesses.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Now that would be interesting to watch SIL and BIL perjure themselves. They could get away with it, if only there were no jail recordings. Oops.

    • Jun says:

      I think she’s up shits creek

      her only choice is to deal with credible information in exchange for probation

      I think the state will argue aggravation, considering she was aiding and abetting a murder that occurred

  12. silk says:

    mom is playin stupid and hoping to break the rules of evidence. gz weight gain is also game. professor ,i enjoy all of your work . it some times leave me speechless . its exactly the way i would understand human rights. i do not comment on this issue much . i would like to thank you for your topics. i do strongly beleave that the evidence will convict zimmerman. especially the screams!!!!

  13. ay2z says:

    “Clueless in Orlando”.

    My comment would normally be off-topic, but our Prof (and I suspect Crane) have opened the proverbial door with the article title.

    It’s mp3, and a bit of the K style, but catchy, the tune’s always catchy, the Harry K version is wonderful, but went for the scenic city route this time. (an Orlando MOM&West version could be in the works though 😉

    For an interlude break from Clueless Esq et al.

  14. Lonnie Starr says:

    Somewhere during the course of the year of listening to the foggen, O’Mara found reason to lose faith that gz might be able to testify, and/or that there would be any evidence sufficient to support a not guilty verdict. As such, O’Mara has taken to frittering away the time. Making absurd proposals and renewing specious claims. All in an effort to appear to be hard at work on a defense. Knowing all the while that any financial expenditures will prove unwarranted and wasteful.

    Time for the foggen to pick a toothbrush, pack several changes of underwear and socks, and/or have Mr O’Mara prepare a list of what he can have, so that he can prepare his “go” bag.

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie Starr.

      Somewhere during the course of the year of listening to the foggen, O’Mara found reason to lose faith that gz might be able to testify,

      Have you seen the following video? O’Mara has a responsibility to know the evidence. He put GZ on the stand allowing him to lie. The embarrassment must have been too much, because O’Mara has not wanted GZ to open his mouth in court since. What he did at the last hearing, asking Judge Nelson not to question GZ in the courtroom, speaks volumes about his trust in GZ’s words.

      • Rachael says:

        Mmmm mmmmm mmmmm

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        While I’ll agree O’Mara did eventually get the barn door closed, too bad it was after all the horses had left.

      • looolooo says:

        Xena Sandford Watch has a very interesting 2 part video up today. Can you PLEASE post it here for all to see. Thanks.
        You continue to ROCK!

      • Xena says:

        @looolooo. Sure, I’ll look for the Sanford Watch videos and embed them here.

        Just a head’s up to everyone. If you tried posting comments yesterday that did not go through, you might also need to click on follow for the blog and for notification of comments.

      • looolooo says:

        Thanks …..again Xena. I read where everyone was having difficulties, so I didn’t bother to comment yesterday. Seems as though we’re under attack. Good! That means we (Prof. L.) have hit a nerve. Hoodies up!

      • looolooo says:

        Hey Xena, I just noticed that in SandfordWatch video 2, sounds like they’re playing YOUR song! Listen to the opening song. It’s very beautiful….. just like your spirit.

        • Xena says:


          Hey Xena, I just noticed that in SandfordWatch video 2, sounds like they’re playing YOUR song! Listen to the opening song. It’s very beautiful….. just like your spirit.

          Bless your heart. I used Black Butterfly in the video titled “To Trayvon’s Cupcake.” Deniece Williams who sings it, was on Unsung and tells the story of what the song means to her, and it was exactly what I heard back around 1983 in church. When the caterpillar has gone through its change, it struggles to come out of the crystalis. The struggle is what gives strength to its wings. Once its wings dry, it flies as a new creature. No longer crawling as a caterpillar, but free to fly; a gentle, beautiful creature who knows what the struggle brings.

      • Xena says:

        Per looolooo’s request.

      • looolooo says:

        Xena Yet another thank you. What a beautiful story. I’ll be sure to view Ms. Williams on Unsung on YouTube tonight. Back in the day, she tore up the charts, alone and with Johnny Mathis.

        Haven’t been to church in years, was young then, didn’t realize that the teachings/sermons I (often reluctantly) sat through would become invaluable at this time in my life. Didn’t know it at the time, but I actually was listening. I’m so blessed that my Mom made me go to church. I miss it, and the music.


      • ladystclaire says:

        Right on Jun, both Bill Lee and Wolfinger were more than willing to look the other way in their protecting of this fat bastard and, IMO they both should be facing charges of Obstruction of Justice. Bill Lee dug his heels in and absolutely *REFUSED* to arrest this lying murdering piece of shit.

        I read a little bit of the story in OS about ShelLie’s witness list for her trial and, I do not like the way Rene Stutzman , referred to Trayvon. some might not see anything wrong with what she did but, I see plenty wrong with the what she did. this woman along with the guy Jeff, they both need to lose their jobs for their bias attitudes in this case, as well as their involvement with the tree slum. O’mara and West should also face some sort of sanctions for how they have involved this rag tag bunch of KKKlan members in such as important case as this one. they should also face sanctions for the way they stopped ShelLies depo as well.

        As I have said several times, this is the worst defense team that I have ever seen.

      • ladystclaire says:

        OH, lookie here the BMOC is nothing but a real big fat obese cry baby without his *firearm* he’s going to wish that he never even touched that *firearm* when he gets to the hoosegow.

        I’m wishing that Fat Boi will never have a minutes peace, for the remainder of his miserable life. may he one day find himself begging for his life, just like he made Trayvon beg for his. IMO Fogen was just chomping at the bit to use that gun on a human being and an AA at that.

        They are waiting on you Fatty and, I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes for nothing in the world because, you’re going to get it.

    • Trained Observer says:

      @Lonnie — AKA his “go-to-hell” bag, with a one-way ticket to his deserved destination.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Well, if he doesn’t get it right, and arrives with say, less underwear than he is allowed, or too many candy bars and they take the excess away. He should remember that it’s his own damned fault, because he has all the time in the world to have his lawyer obtain the lists of allowable items and their quantity, plus the regulations so he can study them as well. Of course, if he wishes to delude himself and pays no attention to the future, he’ll only be repeating the same behavior that got him in this tight spot to begin with.

        Unless I miss my guess, the foggen will do nothing about preparing his go bag or looking up the rules and regs of his new dominion. It will serve him right to have his go bag confiscated and destroyed because all the items are unapproved contraband. You don’t use bic razors when the Warden is getting kickbacks from Gillette or nike jumpsuits when the Warder says Addida$.

        • racerrodig says:

          Ehhhhh, Lonnie, no one loves ya more that I but “…his new dominion..” Can we agree “…his new digs..” because I’m thinking he won’t have “dominion” over anything……..for quite some time.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            No one loves ya more than me Racer, but don’t you get it? gz lives in a dominion of his own mind, so that where ever he goes it’s his dominion, no matter that the guards are confiscating his wrong brand underwear and tossing his excess, over the limit candy.

            Just like RATL was his dominion, until his own stupidity mess things up. His dominions have been shrinking and getting worse as time goes on. Maybe O’Mara is getting him ready for his new digs, by keeping him in an 8 by 12 room?

            Anyway, let’s just agree that he needs to be looking towards his future. We should google up and post some facts here to make things easier on foggen and O’Mara. They may be too depressed to do it themselves. Here, I’ll go first:

            Misconceptions About Florida Prisons

            1. “Prisons are air-conditioned.”
            Photo of dormitory with fans.

            Only ten of the major state-managed prisons in Florida have air-conditioning in some portion of the facility housing inmates, and many of these are located in South Florida. The following institutions have air-conditioning in the areas indicated: Youthful Offender institution Lancaster C.I. (9 dorms and confinement area); Union C.I. (13 dorms); Youthful Offender institution Brevard C.I. (all dorms); Lake C.I. and Zephyrhills C.I. (a/c installed in Mental Health areas in 1997 at Lake C.I. and 1995 at Z.C.I.); female institutions Homestead C.I. (all dorms); Dade C.I. (Mental Health area) and Charlotte C.I. (Mental Health area air conditioned in FY 1994-95) The six Florida prison facilities built under the privatization contract are also air-conditioned.

    • racerrodig says:

      Lonnie, maybe this one has some Fogen message in it somewhere ?

      You know, talking about the Devil and karma, and what God’s plan is and such. The lyrics are a bit long, but I thought this fit pretty good.

      Especially about having done the Devils work here on earth.

  15. Malisha says:

    I always realized Fogen told his story like a kindergarten kid who had been apprehended doing something wrong and who had a fantasy story all spiffed up to tell in order to cover his misdemeanor. The kid goes, “and then [blah blah] and then [blah blah] and then…” and the kid begins to LOVE HIS STORY and he really gets into it. That story glorifies the kid, by the way, and makes his innocence and his necessary [he imagines] defensibility even more and more extreme and the kid, being both immature and unknowledgeable about the social and logical environments, does not realize that as he elaborates, he makes himself look guiltier and guiltier.

    I have always seen (since the first video) the physiological presentations of Fogen as looking essentially babyish and unmanly. Uncomfortably so. I hate to see a grown man give little childish expressions of dismay, injured innocence, and obvious boo-hoo fakery. It offends my vision of what a man should be. His shrugs, his smirks, his fake-military-ish “yessir” and “nossir” bleats, his Hannity-Shmannity “pretend big boy” act, his fraudulent correctness posture, his roundy hand-move-lie-covers, his prissyness. Ugh. Creepycreepycreepy.

    His posture is babyish. He carries his tummy wrong. He has a midriff wiggle that I find slightly nauseating. This was true at the “re-enactment” before the serious weight-gain. He just LOOKS babyish and ACTS babyish and has none of that REAL baby charm. Junior has some of it too but he disguises it better. Perhaps it makes him “attractive” in a gay way, I don’t know. I once knew a lesbian woman who had those physical baby-like characteristics but SHE WANTED THEM and she often used expressions that made it clear she was playing up that “poor widdow meeee” image. Seeing them on a man is irritating.

    Probably I am displaying some sexism in this discomfort I feel for this aspect of Fogen’s physical and verbal characteristics. I don’t know.

    • racerrodig says:

      X 2…I’m glad you said it. Fogen body English from day one is sickening. His hand gestures, his altering statements in mid though, all of it. The “Gnat Swatting” I think I pushed him off of me was a good one. There was your chance to flee tough guy… least one.

    • two sides to a story says:

      He does look like a kid carrying on in his re-enactment video. And I agree on your physiological presentations too – something just not right with that, as if he’s covering up deep anger, deep pain, or simply playacting – or all three. I have a feeling Fogen doesn’t even really know who he is. But he’ll certainly have a long stretch of free time to figure that out come later this summer.

    • KA says:

      I so agree. His reenactment videos have reminded me of an incident with my elementary aged son with borderline MR and Aspergers a year or so ago.

      When he was asked by his teacher why he was gone to the restroom for so long he proceeded to tell the teacher how he was “jumped” in the bathroom and had to “get away” from those two boys. He just made the story fit the circumstance and time he was gone as he went along in the telling. Once he had the story he could retell it to try to make someone believe him (with small inconsistencies, of course and over dramatic emphasis).

      The truth was, he was playing in the water and wandering the halls….he happen to see two boys walking as well. They “fit” in his story at the time of his telling.

      He has always reminded me of a child.

      • KA says:

        …trying to convince someone of a “story”.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        And what about those jail house calls. How stupid can they be to not think they are not being recorded. He talks to Shellie like she has no brains, tells her to write everything down so she doesn’t forget, and then set her phone alarm as a reminder to move the 10 dollars around. And how many times did they tell each other they are so proud of each other. They thought they were so sly pulling the big heist. He really thinks he’s the man telling her what to do. What a good life they are going to have shen he gets out, and she tells him several times what a cutie he is. They are both so excited he gets to take a shower.

        He wants everyone to think he is the big man, he’s in charge, all talk. He reminds me of a wimp, or a whiney little kid, when he falls down and goes boom and gets a little owie, and goes home crying so he can get his superman band-aid and his boo boo kissed to make it feal all better. His little Shel Shel tells him it’s going to be allright cutie, and I love you more. Barf……Dumb and Dumber…..

        • fauxmccoy says:

          soulcatcher – you summed up the jailhouse calls quite nicely. somehow, the constant shower talk just creeped me out.

  16. Xena says:

    LLMPapa, with a reminder to GZ. GZ said Trayvon yelled out for help.

  17. Tzar says:

    When can we start calling O’Mara names unbecoming of an attorney and a gentleman?
    I’ll just see myself out, lol

  18. kllypyn says:

    A response to what i posted on a previously mentioned facebook page. She was polite so i was polite….What she said…DD lied, that’s on record. Why would TMs hands need any injuries? He could have palmed the side of GZs head or smacked him in the face with his palm, no? Holes in TMs shirt could not match up because there was a struggle. He didn’t have to get up to get his gun out, he could have just bent his arm… He did have a broken nose and bruises although he doesn’t need to have any to fear for his life. Having injuries proves and altercation, but TM never touched him? How does that work? Everyone reacts differently to smoking pot, maybe TM was paranoid. I think that’s everything. I also happen to agree with you about the injuries on the back of his head, as far as them being consistent with a beating on concrete anyways.. Good day to you as well.

    What i said…More excuses just as i expected. Did you not read the part about the autopsy or DNA. zimmerman specifically stated he was punched in the face not palmed or smacked.WHEN YOU REPEATEDLY PUNCH PEOPLE YOU INJURE YOUR HANDS SPECIFICALLY THE KNUCKLES AND FINGERS THEY BECOME BRUISED AND SWOLLEN.

    He also said he his head was repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk for nearly a minute which is an obvious lie. he would not have been in any condition to aim and fire a gun and if his gun was on his right rear hip he would not be able to simply bend his arm and grab his gun while lying on his back. He got those injuries some other way because as previously stated the dna prove Trayvon never touched him. and his little injuries are not consistent with his claims.

    the blood from those injuries flow toward his face he was not on his back when he got those.if Trayvon was beating him he was heavier and as a former bouncer he should have able to handle Trayvon without killing him.A punch to the jaw would have ended the fight. her alleged lie an allegation made by the defense is irrelevant. her story of what Trayvon told her and what she heard has not changed. He should have left trayvon alone he had already called the police.

    There are no instances of people becoming violent after smoking weed which is no worse than alcohol actually alcohol maybe worse than weed. because people tend to act crazy after drinking it and Trace amounts mean Trayvon didn’t smoke anything that day or that week. Again not relevant. The only thing relevant is what happened on the night of February 26th 2012. KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG ESPECIALLY UNARMED PEOPLE ESPECIALLY PEOPLE YOU HAVE FOLLOWED AND PURSUED. Thank you for not resorting to name calling. Good day.

    • kllypyn says:

      I also told her his nose was never broken which is plainly obvious on the police photos taken that night.

      • KA says:

        A punch hard enough to knock a significantly heavier man to the ground and rendered him incapacitated would have had to come, at the least, from the dominant hand. The injury to his nose is on the wrong side.

        Personally, I have stated for the past year though different forums that I felt it was recoil. The injury matches it exactly and the slow motion video that Xena provided with hand and head motions just nails that theory solid.

        I think the head injury came from the stucco side of the complex and the scratches from the bushes. I think he was crouched low behind the bus hedge when he heard Trayvon on the phone and then came out to him to initiate the confrontation. He probably fell backwards on the outer stucco and scratched his face/forehead on the branches in front. The injuries would line up.

        • Xena says:


          I think the head injury came from the stucco side of the complex and the scratches from the bushes.

          I have another theory about the head boo-boos and scratches on GZ’s face. In the photos taken at the police station, the scratches were scalped. A close-up of the head boo-boos look like scalps had been picked off, leaving the center of each boo-boo red and raw.

          My theory?? GZ acquired the head boo-boo’s and face scratches before 2/26/12. Maybe — just maybe, there are text messages on his phone providing that evidence.

          Also, if you look at the pattern of the blood on the back of GZ’s head in the photo taken by Jon, it follows a finger pattern — like applying shampoo or gel to the hair — taking the fingers from the sides toward the center and down, without lifting the fingers up. There are 5 rivulets per boo-boo.

          GZ had a reason for lying about getting on Trayvon’s back and spreading his arms apart. Yes, GZ was on Trayvon’s back, but I tend to think he obtained blood from the wound in Trayvon’s chest and smeared it on his head. The EMT’s cleaned the blood off. At the police station, GZ went to the washroom before his interrogation; could pick at the scalps causing the head boo-boo’s to bleed just enough to make it appear like fresh wounds.

          It would be great if the EMT’s saved the material they used to clean GZ’s head and had it tested for DNA.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes that would have been great. Unfortunately the only protocols EMT’s have for crime scene processing is, wait for the detectives direction. So, unless the detectives request that materials be turned over to the crime lab, they will probably be discarded. While detectives, (exasperatingly) tend to assume the obvious answers to be the true ones in most cases and build their theories around the assumption that the obvious is the truth.

            Criminals get this message loud and clear. They have for decades. Thus they lay plans that count on Detectives accepting the obvious views and not guessing that “the obvious view” has been arranged by the perpetrator, in an effort to escape detection.

            Criminals know that the Detectives will believe that the murderer was actually stupid enough to leave the murder weapon in the glove compartment or trunk of their car. So, put the murder weapon in someone else’s car or gym bag and you’re home free. The other guy gets arrested and tried. Just look at “The Central Park 5”, with no physical evidence the police believed they had the guys, while “the real guy” was still roaming free.

        • kllypyn says:

          what does stucco look like?

      • KA says:

        Think of it like a rough, nonfinished cement. It looks a little like a cake that is frosted with swirls from the knife (sometimes has peaks)….but it is as hard as dried clay or cement. It is used for a lot of houses and structures in FL.

      • Malisha says:

        Xena, I believe the reason they didn’t do any testing on the blood from the EMTs’ clean-up OR the blood on Fogen’s hands when he was allowed to “wash up” in the washroom at the station house (without supervision) or any of the other evidence is simply that they were prepared to let Fogen walk so they weren’t REALLY doing an investigation of the homicide. “Why collect evidence? This nice young man told us that he had to kill a thug in self-defense. I woulda done the same, so…”

        Don’t inspect the car, don’t test the blood, don’t question the wife, don’t check the story, don’t even bother notifying the family of the deceased, but DO CHECK THAT DEAD BODY FOR EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING.

        If the Feds fake up this investigation and let it all go, we’ll be able to see an OPEN and OBVIOUS paid-for and owned cover-up as it takes place in the highest avenues. It could not be more clear that SPD, Wolfinger, Lee, and probably half a dozen others were prepared to forgive one little death on behalf of their homeboy here. Only thanks to the outrage of a million really decent Americans was this not played out as a done deal.

      • Lynn says:

        I get what you mean about the fingers pulling to make a trail pattern.
        I have similar theories about the blood on GZ’s jacket and shirt. It was the dots used here that got me thinking. You have to scroll near the bottom to get to the color pictures with the dots colored to match TM and GZ blood.

        I looked at the jacket…I took a brown paper napkin and laid it across my chest, then I wet the fingers on my right hand and smeared my chest as if I was wiping blood off of my fingers (let’s say after I touched the drip of blood on my nose that I smudged on my cheek). I did this several times and I found the same pattern that was on GZ’s jacket. The pointer and index finger dragged longer than the other 3 which matched perfect.
        Make me think??? So I reached my right hand under my armpit and touched my back on my left side…pinkie never touches and it creates similar pattern.

        I look at the shirt from the color photos…Using the left hand, stamp your shirt front. 3 finger line with thumbprint under forming a triangle, pinkie dot (or two) on the side. Use you left hand again and reach to your back from under your left armpit. I see the same stamp pattern with the 3 fingers and thumb.

        They line up perfectly matching fingertips. It’s like GZ was fingerpainting with his own blood to make it look like there was blood all over himself. Creepy!

        Looking so closely at these photos and evidence makes me seem kinda creepy. lol Call me slightly obsessed. My kid thought I was nuts checking out my theory with napkins and water, but sometimes you just have a “lightbulb” moments. I think the dots covering the stains is what got me thinking. Anyone else see what I see?

        • Xena says:

          @Lynn. Thanks so much for that link. I have visited there many times but never gotten that far to see the blood stains matched up with their lettering code.

          So, GZ has Trayvon’s blood on the cuffs of his jacket, but Trayvon has none of GZ’s blood on the cuffs of his hoodie. Hmmmm.

          Still wondering too how gunshot residue ended up on the back of GZ’s sleeve. Oh — could it be — could it mean, that the gun’s recoil popped GZ in the nose, bounced leaving his hand, and hit the back of his sleeve??? Forensics at trial is going to be REAL interesting.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena –

            Re GSR on back of GZ jacket sleeve:

            My theory has the first-arriving officer (Ayala?) taking GZ’s gun; moments later same hand gives GZ a “come-along” palm to his upper arm, motioning GZ toward the squad car where he’ll be escorted to SPD for questioning.

            In other words, a “second party transfer” from the hand of the officer who received/secured the weapon after GZ shot Trayvon, then motioned him forward.

            I don’t think Ayala was one of GZ’s buddies, like Smith, but GZ may have tried some “early bonding” with Ayala by launching his “self defense spiel of “I’m a friend of Norm, Bill Lee, etc.” and being so cooperative in copping a plea. Ayala may then have put his hand on the back of GZ’s upper arm in the universal motion of “male buddyship” to move him forward.

            One of those inconsequential movements that transports evidence, but essentially means nothing.

          • Xena says:


            @Xena –

            Re GSR on back of GZ jacket sleeve:

            My theory has the first-arriving officer (Ayala?) taking GZ’s gun; moments later same hand gives GZ a “come-along” palm to his upper arm, motioning GZ toward the squad car where he’ll be escorted to SPD for questioning.

            Smith was the first to arrive. The gunshot residue on the back of GZ’s right sleeve goes along reasonably with the recoil, GZ losing his grip, and the gun bouncing off the sleeve of his jacket. Watch the slow motion of his re-enactment when his fingers let go of the gun.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena –

            Thanks, Xena – will check out the re-enactment.

            Your theory or mine, it’s a benign transfer of GSR.

            If it was Smith who received he gun from fogen, the “man-grip” on the upper arm is even more likely with Officer Tim than with Ayala.

            But I like the Flying Kel-Tek image also – Die Fledermaus!

            Dropping pollen …

        • kllypyn says:

          There is only one speck of Trayvon’s blood on his jacket. probably get there when he was shot. Might be what they call high velocity blood spatter

    • Soulcatcher says:

      And what about the drugs Fogen stated he was taking. Temazepam. According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the drug is also known to cause “aggressiveness” and “hallucinations,” among other problematic symptoms. He was also on the often abused prescription drug Adderall, which is known to cause “worsening mental or mood problems (eg, aggression, anxiety, delusions, depression, hallucination, hostility),” according to Of course there was no toxicology test done on Fogen, but I wonder what the effect would be with alcohol along with the drugs he admits to taking.

      Again a good example of shifting the blame from himself, WHO IS ON DRUGS, to Trayvon, “IT LOOKS LIKE HE’S ON DRUGS OR SOMETHING.”

  19. groans says:

    Is he clueless in Orlando?

    1. Yes. And everywhere else he goes, too, I suspect.

    2. No. What a silly question. Why, haven’t you noticed that the journalistic beacon, the Orlando Sentinel, hangs on his every word?

    3. Yes. He’s so clueless that he’s probably not even SLEEPLESS 25 days before trial!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Orlando Sentinel, journalistic beacon? Well, maybe bacon … no lean and all fat, just like Fogen.

  20. Trained Observer says:

    Yes … Clueless in Orlando, all of Orange County, and the entire state of Florida. Looking forward to JN’s ruling.

  21. fauxmccoy says:


  22. Malisha says:

    Professor, if you can, check to see if the problem posting comments is related to some kind of sabotage. I hope I’m not being paranoid.

    • We received a barrage of hateful comments late this afternoon. I intercepted and banned them by blacklisting them. The user names they used contained bits and pieces of our user names and that resulted in diverting most of the new comments into the spam cue.

      I believe I have figured out a solution and order appears to have been restored.

      • Jun says:

        Ahhh… so they were impersonating me

        I dont feel they can crack my password so my email is the only real Jun

      • Xena says:

        It’s a damn shame what you have to go through to prevent verbal vandalism of your blog.

      • towerflower says:

        Desperation, if they can’t defend, they attack.

      • Kelly Payne says:

        There is someone who,has been using my name to post bull crap on the os site. Could you have gotten hateful comments from him or her?

      • racerrodig says:

        They had hateful comments…..Gee, imagine that.

      • JustMe says:

        This is to Kelly Payne..

        Kelly, go to the bottom on the OS online page, there you will see a contact option. Fill out the complaint form, c/p their comments that contain your name and report it to them. You can also call them directly, their number is listed in their contact section.

        The desperate fogenites are doing this to many people as they have done it to me. The OS banned them when I brought this to their attention.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        i just use my real name online, have nothing to hide.

    • Jun says:

      I dont think that is the reason

  23. kllypyn says:

    What i posted on a facebook page crowded with Zimmerpukes because i knew it would piss them off….DNA says Trayvon never touched him. The autopsy says Trayvon never touched him. how would stephen say trayvon attacked Zimmerman when he wasn’t there. the state has plenty. DEE DEE is credible her story has not changed.

    The autopsy report. no bruising or swelling to the fingers or knuckles just a tiny abrasion on his ring finger. the wound track direct front to back.1inch left of midline half inch below the nipple.

    The holes in his shirts are in the upper chest,near his shoulder.
    They show stearlate tearing which shows the shirts were stretched when the bullet tore into them. Zimmerman was holding onto Trayvon’s shirts when he killed him.
    Trayvon never touched him. But if he had he would have been within his rights to do so.

    He said he was able to unholster his weapon aim and fire into Trayvon’s chest,while Trayvon was mounted on him beating him. His gun was on his waist at his right rear hip,he was laying on it.He’s going to have to explain how he got his gun. the only way he could get his gun like he claims is if he knocked Trayvon off stood up pulled his gun and killed trayvon,which would negate his self defense claim.(there is no self defense when you kill an unarmed person anyway,especially a kid.)

    We teach our kids to run or defend themselves. Trayvon ran Zimmerman instead of going back to his truck decided to hunt for him after he disappeared into the darkness. He said “call me and I’ll tell you where I’m at.” Despite his claims to the contrary he was not going back to his truck.

    During a confrontation that lasted less than a minute,he said trayvon repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk for nearly a minute while at the same time TRAYVON TRIED TO SMOTHER HIM WHILE ALSO PUNCHING HIM IN THE FACE 30-40 TIMES. He is going to have to explain. How would Trayvon have done that? Did he grow an extra set of arms? Was Trayvon super kid? He is going to have to explain why he only had scratches. no facial bruising no busted lips and of course despite his claims no broken nose and no black eyes. You do not escape with just scratches when you are punched in the face like he claims.

    About Those injuries. I have enlarged those photos of scratches on his face. They are consistent with the type of scratches you get from running into tree branches or stumbling into bushes. They are not the injuries you get from someones fist slamming into your face. Notice whats missing in those pictures. There is no swelling on his nose. It’s almost pristine except for a couple of scratches. Even a closed fracture will have swelling which will not disappear less than an hour later. There is no facial swelling. There is no busted lips. AND NO BLACK EYES. Having injuries is not an indication he was attacked it just shows he was in an altercation. (Trayvon never touched him.)


    the evidence which you people chose to ignore while making crap up,shows Trayvon being held by his shirts when he was murdered.You can’t claim self defense when you prevent the escape of the person you kill.

    The only way trayvon could have done what Zimmerman claims is if he couldn’t fight back.Or he just laid there and let trayvon beat him.Obviously that didn’t happen. Zimmerman was not disabled in anyway. His injuries were less than minor.

    Zimmerman is a violent man who should have went to prison years ago. It was only a matter of time before he killed someone if it hadn’t been trayvon it would have been someone else. Again Trayvon never touched him. And he knows it.

    Whether DEE DEE went to a hospital or somewhere instead of Trayvon’s funeral is irrelevant and immaterial to the case. the only thing relevant is why there was a funeral in the first place.

    You should be asking be ask why this 200lb former bouncer couldn’t handle a 17 year old kid without killing him. You be asking how did he get his gun? You should be asking if Trayvon hit him where was the blood and DNA on his hands and fingers. You should be asking If Trayvon hit him why didn’t he hit back he was strong and heavier than him. You sould be asking If Trayvon beat him why were his fingers pristine no bruising no swelling.

    It’s common knowledge that weed does not cause people to react violently unlike alcohol and further more Trace amounts show Trayvon may have smoked weed days or weeks before he was killed or he was near people who smoked weed. not relevant Good day.

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      Hi, I’m having trouble relying in the right place. Sorry if this is a duplicate. Hello, regarding GZ’s injury, I see a deep abrasion, high on the right side of the bridge of his nose which trails downward and more superficial (less deep) to his face. ~IF~ this was done by a punch, that punch would have had to come from above, at a significant angle, and from a left handed punch. As we know, Trayvon is right handed. his 2-3 inch height advantage would not be sufficient to to strike so high, In a downward motion unless it was a spectacular ‘Superman punch’ . Very doubtful. Also, we know GZ had been standing in the rain for several minutes before the altercation. His face would have been wet. It is highly doubtful that one skin on WET skin hit would have generated enough friction to make that deep (but very small) abrasion on the bridge of his nose. However, humor me for a sec. Put your elbow against the back of your chair, approximating GZ’s elbow on the ground. Extend your index finger. In the classic “gun” position, angle it slightly in toward the left in front of you, so as to shoot a person infect of you in the heart. Now, bring your hand in to your face directly. Where does your finger hit? Why, on the right side of the bridge of your nose, and continuing the move would trailbitvdown the sidebofbyour nosevto your face, just like GZ’s abrasion. That crappy little kelt tec has a notoriously light trigger pull and it is well known to have a ‘significant’ recoil problem. friends, that blow to his nose came from his own gun.

      • Xena says:

        @hotheadpaisen. Did the following for you. How Zimmerman Hurt His Nose.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Excellent video work, Xena! I also had noticed how gz raised his hand both times after demonstrating the shot. I am so, so glad you created this video that clearly provides reasons that gz’s nose might have received the gun’s recoil knock.

      • Xena says:

        @yahtc. GZ would have us believe that while Trayvon was going for the gun, and he pinned his arm, that the best Trayvon could do was use his other hand to cover GZ’s nose.

        Had GZ’s nose been bleeding as he says with blood running down onto his mouth, and had Trayvon had his hand over GZ’s nose and mouth placing all his weight on it, and if Trayvon slid his hand down GZ’s side towards the gun, there should have been a streak of blood going down GZ’s shirt.

        The most reasonable conclusion is that the bloody nose happened after or because of the shot and not before. Recoil.

      • boyd says:

        Does anyone know the angle of the shot?

      • boyd says:

        Never mind I got it. I think I know what may have happened now.

        The witness #6 (???) told them he was calling the cops, he went inside. Then most likely both guys quickly got off the ground. Zimmerman went for his gun, TM tried to stop him. But Fogen was able to get it out. Fogen at 5-8 was able lift his arm up high enough for a straight shot into the heart of TM at 6-0. Shoulders up and stretched out. The kid was begging for his life.

        And maybe, just maybe Fogen meant to use the gun to keep detain TM for the cops, thus an accidental shooting, nervous trigger (seems the type), and has been covering it up.

        I just can’t see a straight shot lying on the ground. Did I miss something.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You missed several things, first Trayvon wasn’t 6′, he was 5’11” check the autopsy report and other reports here in my master revisable timeline, it has links to data in the appropriate places. It’s no accident, foggen admits he meant to kill, he took careful aim and pulled the trigger, claiming that he was near death while doing so.

          You also didn’t seem to see that gz was holding onto and pulling on Trayvon’s clothing, holding and restraining him with one hand while he aimed and fired with the other. Nothing a person in fear of loss of life or great bodily harm would do, while under an unarmed, hands only attack, since he’d need both hands to fend off the deadly blows, eh? Of course the 911 tapes of the talk going on at the time, don’t portray gz as being in fear of losing his life at the time.

      • Trained Observer says:

        @Xena — Great vid! Recoil … word of the day for the Clueless in Orlando.

      • two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think you can gauge whether it was a left-handed or right-handed punch. You can bust someone in the middle of the kisser or nose with either hand. I was punched by a right-handed person which resulted a small closed fracture on the righthand side of the bridge of my nose. According to your logic, that would have to have been a left-handed punch. . .

      • kllypyn says:

        As someone who has been beaten in face the punch doesn’t cause abrasions like that they leave bruising and swelling and as the skin swells it cracks resulting in bleeding IE busted lips.

        They well also rupture the tiny blood vessels around eyes the causing black eyes. I am probably the only one who has even come close to being beaten like he claims. Something i hope never to experience again. That’s why i knew instantly from day one his story was full of crap.

        I was 16 years old and was only 146lbs he was 19 and was over 200lbs. He thought i was flirting with his girl friend all i did was pick up her books for her because she dropped them. After beating me to where i could barely stand up he slammed my head repeatedly against a brick wall. i don’t know how many times because i lost consciousness. when i came to i was lying on my back behind a building. He was never beaten up and he knows it.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I didn’t want to post this on Whonoze, but I think I’ve got a good theory about the “Dear God” exclamation on the NEN tape.

          Let’s suppose that gz is covered in blood, his truck has tinted windows and he’s keeping some distance between him and Trayvon. So, he expect Trayvon to give his truck a wide berth. Instead, Trayvon, attempting to seem brave, continues to walk home and passes close enough to gz’s truck to observe that gz is bleeding and wounded.

          Since this was to be gz’s cover for detaining Trayvon, it has now been discovered and witnessed by Trayvon to be a lie. Trayvon can now testify that gz was bleeding before he even got out of his truck, and gz realizing this, exclaimed “Dear God”, realizing that now he was going to have to kill to keep his secret.

      • Malisha says:

        Kllyp– And toward the end of that beating, even if you had HAD a gun, you wouldn’t know where your own hands were or even if you had hands and if so how many, so you couldn’t organize a way to grab it, aim it, make sure you didn’t shoot your other hand, and shoot your assailant in the heart. One of the funniest parts of the stupid story Fogen told was that “when I shimmied my jacket came up and he saw my gun — I felt like he saw my gun — and…”

        That presumes that Trayvon, in the middle of attempted murder of a still-conscious man, paid attention to clothing details, and that Fogen, in the middle of imminent diaperhood-or-death, could sense these subtle changes in killer’s attention. “so I pinched his hand…”

        No way Fogen would even have REMEMBERED that move if he hadn’t been creating this whole scenario in the only place where he could have observed it carefully: HIS OWN MIND.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If he envisions that Trayvon could lift or handle more than 25 lbs without great difficulty, then he has to be imagining things. Trayvon is not a weight lifter or even a body builder, he plays no regular sports that would increase, enhance or augment his agility or strength.

          So, if anyone has a suspicion that gz’s story is false, they have only to look at the final condition of Trayvon’s hands to confirm that gz’s story is from fantasyland. Since there is obviously no way that Trayvon could have done what gz claims, and still have kept his hands and clothing pristine, gz’s story is simply a wishful fantasy on his part, designed in an effort to make his own inexcusable actions, seem excusable.

          gz is sweating a life in prison if his story is not believed, thus he will say anything he can to make any incriminating material either go away or compromise it as best he can. Trouble is, at the bail hearing, he displayed his ability to lie to the court, under oath and still appear to be trustworthy while doing it. So, we know that he can do it and we have every reason to believe that he did and will continue to.

    • boyd says:

      Yeah, I can’t envision how Tray was on top of him at 158lbs , yet Zimmerman got the gun from his waist with no difficulty.
      if you were to take GZ’s account from the video, he had both his arms outstretched. So tray had to be sitting on his chest. How did he get the gun out?

      The cops could have, should have re-enacted that.

      • towerflower says:

        With the way he describes TM as being on him it doesn’t make sense and one or the other can’t happen. If he is sitting/straddling him in such a way to hit him repeatedly in the face and force his head to the ground then he couldn’t possibly see the gun or try to retrieve it. If he was further back to where he could see the gun, then he wouldn’t have been able to deliver so many blows or try to smother him since his hands/arms wouldn’t reach that far.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Add to that towerflower, if gz straightens his gun arm, and he’s on the bottom, he can’t take a shot that travels into Trayvon with no angle, because they’re too far apart and the wound site is at an angle to any position of gz’s arm.

          They have to be upright for gz to get a straight in shot with no angle, with an extended arm, where his elbow subtends a ~180º angle.

  24. two sides to a story says:

    The May 28 hearing should be a doozey. I’m all eyes and ears.

  25. kllypyn says:

    Where did he get his law degree,a crackerjack box?

  26. Unabogie says:

    Do they really think a remote expert will be convincing? That seems like madness. Any human being will trust the guy in the room over the guy on Skype. It’s human nature.

    • two sides to a story says:

      Wouldn’t ya think the defense would have done a lot of work on this issue already? They seem to be reactive more than proactive. As Mr. L has said many times, not ready for prime time.

      • groans says:

        Ya’d think!

      • Rachael says:

        It makes no sense to me. It isn’t like he just found out about the scream. That was part of the case from day one, as soon as they found out they could hear it in the background. You would think that would have been one of the very first things he’d have gotten an expert for, especially after Trayvon’s mom and dad both said it was Trayvon and after GZ initially said it didn’t even sound like him decided it was and his father said it sounded like him when he was a teenager (?). You’d have thought the FIRST thing he’d do would be to find an expert who would say it was GZ. Did he really believe it was? I mean the screams stop after the gunshot. And even if he DID believe it was GZ, he’d HAVE to know that others wouldn’t so he best get some experts.

        So either he could not find anyone willing to say it was GZ

        He could not find anyone he could afford to pay to say it was GZ

        Or he has known all along it wasn’t and he was hoping it would all somehow go away.

        Whatever the case, the guy seems to be totally inept. I keep thinking maybe he is just totally pretending to be stupid and is going to surprise us at the trial when he goes into a phone booth and comes out as superlawyer, but I’m going with the totally inept for now.

        But surely he must know he is.

        So why is he doing it? I still think he is purposely trying to throw the case or something. But I can’t quite figure out why. I know Professor says otherwise and that he’s seen worse, but I’m just not so sure.

      • towerflower says:

        It looks like MOM follows the belief of whatever fogey says and the CTH, guess no one bothered to tell him he needs to follow up with actual evidence.

      • Nef05 says:

        Yeah @ what Rachael said. Plus, even if he had overlooked it to that point, O’Mara certainly couldn’t overlook it anymore once BDLR clearly stated at the Dec. Hearing that the tape had two voices on it in the background. That was 6 months ago. Certainly a call for his own expert should have been called for at that point. Well, long before that point, but certainly BY that point.

        I don’t know what he’s doing, but I’ve seen posters on this board make a better case for the defense, just in discussing and debating the facts already in evidence.

    • Jun says:

      I dont believe so because even without an expert enhancing it for the jury, it sounds like a kid screaming for help and squealing in pain and crying

      in fact numerous witnesses said it was a kid

      the remaining, exceptions of 6 and 11, have all stated that the gunshot stopped the screams at the shot, so someone was screaming till they were shot

      the expert is believable because of that

      • groans says:

        So true, Jun. Even Robert Sr. said he knew it was the killer’s voice because he had heard the killer scream like that when he was a TEENAGER!! 😆 😆

      • Jun says:

        It’s sickening to normal people to hear a kid scream and beg for his life but it seems to be music to Fogen’s ears because he said “There shall be…”

        Considering Fogen was able to calmly say those words in his creepy whisper pedo voice, I’d say he was unbalanced and the one in control of the confrontation and killing he started

        I feel the state’s experts will be believable based on that

        I would not be surprised if w6 breaks down on the stand and admits he heard a kid scream and was afraid of Fogen’s retaliation, which was why he lied a bit, which I believe the jury will forgive him

      • boyd says:

        Witness #11 is an airhead. Does she even listen to what she says.

        Oh George was being beat, oh I did not see anything. so lady, why did you say he was getting beat then? FDLE eye roll.

        And she did not say a thing about hearing some conversation until the second interview.

        Let alone, she makes a sheet neighbor. Run upstairs and hide. 🙂

        Witness #6, I commend him for taking the time to consider what he saw then changing his testimony to exactly what he saw. A lot of MMA combat is on the ground like in wrestling, and the prevalent strategy on the ground is to control the opponent.
        yes, I’m Captain Obvious , I know the guys know this was not sure about the women

      • KA says:

        I actually believe that no one on the jury will believe that Trayvon beat him in that 60 seconds. There is no blood on his hands or cuffs. How was his face 60% covered in blood (or whatever that EMT testified on the stand) and Trayvon not have huge blood splatter on him with “continuous blows to the face” (remember 100s according to GZ)? Near no blood smear and no blood on Trayvon’s hands. It will seem a crock story to anyone on the jury hearing it. It is not just implausible, but, I assume, impossible.

        With the body position where it was (ie no head smashing on the sidewalk at the time of shooting at the least), the absence of blood, and the punctuated scream with the gun shot, how could anyone believe the “self defense” story.

        The kicker is, how will they even hear it? Unless GZ testifies, and none of his “self gratuitous” statements are entered, how will they even introduce the self defense theory? No witness saw the shot nor more than 3 seconds of the fight.

        I agree with you Jun about the recording. I cannot even listen to it more than the first time. It was obviously a young person is a great deal of pain. It is jarring.

    • groans says:

      @Unabogie, re:

      Do they really think a remote expert will be convincing? That seems like madness. Any human being will trust the guy in the room over the guy on Skype. It’s human nature.

      To me, it seems more like weakness than madness.

      Remote “expert witness” testimony at a jury trial (assuming it were permitted) is much more risky – for the reason you suggest – than it is at a pre-trial “bench” hearing (i.e., before a judge).

      Judges are so accustomed to court matters that remote testimony probably wouldn’t phase or affect them much, if at all. That’s generally not the case with jurors. So I’d be surprised if the defense would risk not having their expert appear in person at trial.

      What I “hear” O’Mara saying is: “We can’t afford to bring him here TWICE, so can we please just ‘patch him in’ to the Frye hearing?” Yet, if O’Mara’s successful at a Frye hearing, then that’s it – he won’t NEED the witness at trial! Also, O’Mara is the one asking for this “crucial” hearing. So, why NOT bring his witness in now, to nip this issue in the bud upfront … if the defense is confident about the hearing result.

      So the defense appears to be NOT confident about the result. And that’s something a judge would also likely perceive … and that scent of weakness COULD affect a judge’s view to a risky degree.

      • Malisha says:

        Groans: Excellent Point!

      • Jun says:

        He’s a fucking liar, IMO

        I feel it would cost him a few hours of the expert’s time (alleged expert) and a bus ticket, so my guess is maybe $1,000 or less?

      • @groans,
        you said it. bc I couldn’t put my finger on it. I couldn’t figure out what he was doing in that interview. why was he saying ‘well if it was gz, then that supports his case. but if it was Trayvon, that shows gz was acting very aggressive towards Trayvon’!

        why would he even say the word *if*, especially in public!?
        and I couldn’t figure out why he sounded so weird.
        but you are totally right! he’s WEAK!! and he’s beginning to feel it! his case is weak yeah, but he is also weak in the sense that he doesn’t even know how to handle himself! how pathetic??!!! omar is being a shitty lawyer really. and he’s making it so public now.

        but I don’t even care if he’s a good lawyer or not, because I just don’t believe this is a difficult case for the jury. we have some dumb ass nobody, 28 yrs old underachiever, obviously insecure, obviously mentally unstable, frustrated angry little man, exactly who we DON’T want running around packing a gun! and guns have been a major focus in the news and in the minds of a lot of people, especially ones with children.
        convicting an idiot of chasing a kid down and killing him, with half the crime recorded doesn’t seem a stretch.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Remote testimony by expert witness is a joke. If the “expert”, however, intends to lie and perjure him/her self, then remote testimony is all they will agree to, preferably from somewhere beyond the courts jurisdiction.

        Please, don’t take O’Mara seriously, he’s long since abandoned the mantle of a defense attorney who needs to be seriously considered to be capable of making a case. After a year of “Oh just you wait until we motion for the immunity hearing… We’ve got so much exculpatory evidence, the immunity hearing will be a cake walk, just you wait for it, it’s coming real soon. The Prosecutor is making things difficult, but the immunity hearing will settle it once and for all, we’re just not ready to have it now. We’re still not ready to have the immunity hearing and time is running out because the prosecutor screwed us. Maybe we’ll have the immunity hearing rolled into the trial, or maybe we’ll have the immunity hearing after the trial. Yes, your honor, the defendant waives his right to the pre trial immunity hearing, (notice we didn’t waive the right to a during or post trial immunity hearing), so don’t get your hopes up!”

        I have no idea what O’Mara is talking about when he says a “during or post trial” immunity hearing, because the only immunity hearing I understand the law allows is a pre trial immunity hearing. No one has been able to find any statutes about a during or post trial immunity hearing. Probably for the same reason you don’t find statutes about moon bases, they simply don’t exist.

      • Jun says:

        I think Omara says that crap because Fogen’s gang members are psychotic and he prolly fears attack from them

        That’s probably what Omara said to the judge and he simply wanted to look good for the Zimmernuts

        I am not a lawyer and even I know the set precedents of it being a pretrial motion and hearing, even being agreed by appellate court so he has nothing there

  27. Jun says:

    Okay, for some reason my last few posts did not show up

  28. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< alpha zed!

  29. Xena says:

    @Professor. I’m receiving info that people are unable to post to your blog. Some of the notifications I’ve received today have quotations around the name of the blog and others do not. (Have no idea why that is.)

    • I just discovered that many comments, including yours and my own, were automatically diverted into the spam cue.

      I retrieved and published them.

      Don’t know why that happened.

      • Xena says:

        @Professor. If you used the “blacklist,” the program takes whatever is within the “blacklist” term. For instance, 111.00.222 not only puts that into spam, but every IP address with 111 in it, or 00, or 222.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thought I’d neglected to hit the post button, so you may have a couple of dupes from me.

  30. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    testing…..our posts are not coming through on the last article.

  31. Rachael says:

    Am I banned?

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