Zimmerman: Did defendant have a valid license to carry

Good afternoon:

I am featuring two excellent comments today by Towerflower regarding the validity of the defendant’s CCW license. I thought it wasn’t, but Toweflower has presented a strong argument that it was valid.

Towerflower ought to know since he or she is licensed to teach the course on firearm safety.

I am working on a post about the State’s motions in limine and should have it up in a couple of hours.

Fred

Comment 1

Jun, I have read it and gone through the process. His charges were downgraded to resisting arrest without violence. It is a misdemeanor, only a charge of violence would have prevented him. It was dismissed after his diversion program and it would have not prevented him. Only a felony conviction would have. 4 years passed from the time of the arrest to his CCW.

His restraining order did have a expiration date, 1 year, and it was never renewed by either party. This was also in 2005 and 4 yrs passed.

This is the “short” printed list from the State of Florida for disqualifiers:
*The physical inability to handle a firearm safely.
*A FELONY conviction (unless civil and firearm rights have been restored by the convicting authority).
*Having adjudication withheld or sentence suspended on a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence unless 3 years have elapsed since probation or other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.
*A conviction for a violent crime in the last 3 years, either misdemeanor or felony.
*A conviction for violation of controlled substance laws or multiple arrests for such offenses.
*A record of drug or alcohol abuse.
*2 or more DUI convictions within the previous 3 yrs.
*Being committed to a mental institution or adjudged incompetent or mentally defective.
*Failing to provide proof of proficiency with a firearm.
*Having been issued a domestic violence injunction or an injunction against repeat violence that is CURRENTLY IN FORCE.
*Renunciation of US citizenship.
*A dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
*Being a fugitive from justice.

I can teach the training class. Taking the class is not a guarantee that the state will pass you. They do not issue the CCW, they only provide a certificate of safety training which is part of the application process given to the state. The certificate of training is a 8 1/2 x 11″ certificate that one could frame and in no way can be confused for a CCW. A safety class would never refund their time or cost of materials if someone didn’t pass the State’s process. Classes SHOULD include a shooting session so that the Instructor can verify that the person can safely handle and shoot a gun, the only thing I can think of is that they didn’t charge him for ammo and refunded that portion. The cost of the written material is about $11 and he paid $90 for the course, with the Instructor pocketing the rest.

More importantly the State would never, never, never, issue someone the CCW and then investigate the file. I said in the previous comments I had an issue come up in mine where they said I was lacking in the file. When I called they wanted the NRA Instructor number of my lead trainer which they said should be on the certificate of training. My training was not in the run of the mill safety class that most take. I took the Instructor training in which I now have the credentials to teach the CCW safety classes. Those certificates did not have a place for the instructor to put his License # where the safety classes do. In the end all I needed to do was send them a copy of my Instructor credentials, that had my Instructor # on it, and they THEN issued my CCW.

There is nothing in his file saying they sent him any notifications at a later date. His file also contains inquiries from the Sanford PD and the Florida Dept. of Civil Rights that happened after the shooting of Trayvon and the State’s response to them. This can be found in the previous thread where I say how to find the FDLE inquiry and what was in his file. There is no mention that he received a refund from the State or that his CCW was suspended or revoked.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Fogen any more than the rest of you do but I researched this early on and there was nothing that we know about him that would have prevented him from obtaining the license.

Comment 2

Xena, One of the things told to me when I took the training for the Instructor credentials was to make sure that I kept all information on the people that I train. One Instructor said he scanned the information to reduce paperwork space. They explained that LE always comes back to the Instructor of the class to see what they can find out or remember about the student, there is no time limit on when they will go back. This is a common practice when the shooter is a CCW holder, once again their investigation into it isn’t unusual and I was told this a couple of years before the TM shooting. If an Instructor gave a certificate to a student they felt was not ready it will cost the Instructor their credentials.

On the statement of the Instructor he said he purges his records every 2 years and didn’t have fogen’s information anymore. Since he took the class in 2009 it sounds like the paper shredders were working overtime.

Also that pdf I referenced people to look at is his CCW file. In it they also place inquiries about a holder. There have been 3, first was by the Sanford PD, then Florida’s Civil Rights Division, and the last one was from the FDLE. All of them were after the shooting of Trayvon, not one was a federal agency….unless it was after the FDLE request.

191 Responses to Zimmerman: Did defendant have a valid license to carry

  1. Xena says:

    @N

    Lol….but then it wouldn’t be the known echo chamber ya’ll love so well!

    Ahhh. Someone from the Zidiot wasp nest.

  2. kllypyn says:

    What i posted on a facebook page crowded with zimmerpukes because i knew it would piss them off….DNA says Trayvon never touched him. The autopsy says Trayvon never touched him. how would stephen say trayvon attacked Zimmerman when he wasn’t there. the state has plenty. DEE DEE is credible her story has not changed.

    The autopsy report. no bruising or swelling to the fingers or knuckles just a tiny abrasion on his ring finger. the wound track direct front to back.1inch left of midline half inch below the nipple.

    The holes in his shirts are in the upper chest,near his shoulder.
    They show stearlate tearing which shows the shirts were stretched when the bullet tore into them. Zimmerman was holding onto Trayvon’s shirts when he killed him.
    Trayvon never touched him. But if he had he would have been within his rights to do so.

    He said he was able to unholster his weapon aim and fire into Trayvon’s chest(Being careful not to shoot his own hand.),while Trayvon was mounted on him beating him. His gun was on his waist at his right rear hip,he was laying on it.He’s going to have to explain how he got his gun. the only way he could get his gun like he claims is if he knocked Trayvon off stood up pulled his gun and killed trayvon,which would negate his self defense claim.(there is no self defense when you kill an unarmed person anyway,especially a kid.)

    We teach our kids to run or defend themselves. Trayvon ran Zimmerman instead of going back to his truck decided to hunt for him after he disappeared into the darkness. He said “call me and I’ll tell you where I’m at.” Despite his claims to the contrary he was not going back to his truck.

    During a confrontation that lasted less than a minute,he said trayvon repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk for nearly a minute while at the same time TRAYVON TRIED TO SMOTHER HIM WHILE ALSO PUNCHING HIM IN THE FACE 30-40 TIMES. He is going to have to explain. How would Trayvon have done that? Did he grow an extra set of arms? Was Trayvon super kid? He is going to have to explain why he only had scratches. no facial bruising no busted lips and of course despite his claims no broken nose and no black eyes. You do not escape with just scratches when you are punched in the face like he claims.

    About Those injuries. I have enlarged those photos of scratches on his face. They are consistent with the type of scratches you get from running into tree branches or stumbling into bushes. They are not the injuries you get from someones fist slamming into your face. Notice whats missing in those pictures. There is no swelling on his nose. It’s almost pristine except for a couple of scratches. Even a closed fracture will have swelling which will not disappear less than an hour later. There is no facial swelling. There is no busted lips. AND NO BLACK EYES. Having injuries is not an indication he was attacked it just shows he was in an altercation. (Trayvon never touched him.)

    Those injuries on the back of his head. One round puncture wound and an inch long cut.THOSE ARE NOT THE INJURIES YOU GET FROM REPEATEDLY BEING SLAMMED INTO A SIDEWALK. HE GOT THOSE FROM A METAL OBJECT. HE DID NOT GET THOSE INJURIES FROM A SIDEWALK.

    the evidence which you people chose to ignore while making crap up,shows Trayvon being held by his shirts when he was murdered.You can’t claim self defense when you prevent the escape of the person you kill.

    The only way trayvon could have done what Zimmerman claims is if he couldn’t fight back.Or he just laid there and let trayvon beat him.Obviously that didn’t happen. Zimmerman was not disabled in anyway. His injuries were less than minor.

    Zimmerman is a violent man who should have went to prison years ago. It was only a matter of time before he killed someone if it hadn’t been Trayvon it would have been someone else. Again Trayvon never touched him. And he knows it.

    Whether DEE DEE went to a hospital or somewhere instead of Trayvon’s funeral is irrelevant and immaterial to the case. the only thing relevant is why there was a funeral in the first place.

    You should be asking be ask why this 200lb former bouncer couldn’t handle a 17 year old kid without killing him. You should be asking how did he get his gun? You should be asking if Trayvon hit him where was the blood and DNA on his hands and fingers. You should be asking If Trayvon hit him why didn’t he hit back he was strong and heavier than him. You should be asking If Trayvon beat him why were his fingers pristine no bruising no swelling.

    It’s common knowledge that weed does not cause people to react violently unlike alcohol and further more Trace amounts show Trayvon may have smoked weed days or weeks before he was killed or he was near people who smoked weed. not relevant. Good day.

    • He had the pistol drawn…..I can hardly imagine him NOT having it out…

      Remember he was stalking a black thug…..not knowing if he were armed or not…..He had it out so as not to have the thug “get the drop on him”

      • Xena says:

        @MMPat.

        He had the pistol drawn…..I can hardly imagine him NOT having it out…

        The way to break down GZ’s story into lies and truth is to see what he gives as excuses. When he gives an excuse, he is lying. GZ gave an excuse for looking/reaching on his right-side. His excuse is asinine, because if he had no problem, he would not try to call 911. If he didn’t want confrontation, he would have walked away or in the least, turned his back rather than standing face-to-face with Trayvon while reaching on his right-side.

        Just in case someone did see him raise his jacket and show Trayvon his gun, GZ wanted to give an excuse for reaching to his right-side.

        • Sad really….a gun gives a moron like fogen a sense of manhood and power….

          One needs to obtain knowledge, as knowledge IS power…

          Off topic here but since I have you….With airyass……seeing that most of her drawings that the she’s selling for THOUSANDS are actually trace3d from magazine ads……Any chance that could be a copyright violation?……Yeah she’s already convicted…….it would be nice tho to have to see her pay for using the images…..Basically take her income from her.

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat.

            Any chance that could be a copyright violation?

            They are copyright violations. Since it’s unlikely that the lawful copyright owner will get a dime from her, they might be able to get her to provide the name of purchasers and require them to turnover the drawings to them.

          • That would be an idea…..anything to take away from her “celebrity” status…

            airyass….fogen….and more….yeah there truly monsters among us..

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat.

            airyass….fogen….and more….yeah there truly monsters among us..

            They give self-defense a bad reputation.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Now I’m asking, “If the besieged defendant pulled his gun from its holster that was wedged between his right buttock and pants as he lay on it with the Deceased straddling him, there should be grass and mud all over the gun.. So, is there?”

  3. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    testing…..can’t seem to post on the newest article right now.

  4. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you for this article, fred and tower. as much as i may dislike the fact that the defendant was clearly armed, dangerous and overly medicated, until i see evidence from the prosecution that the CCW permit was invalid, i must accept that it is so. the defendant’s previous brushes with the law were not disqualifying events according to the state of florida and this too, i must accept.

    i also take no issue with the fact that the gun used to silence trayvon was not the defendant’s, but his wife’s. there are many circumstances that could lead to this occurring. for example, when my husband goes to the range, he takes my .38 — i am the gun owner in our household, but have no issue with him using my gun. it is here for both of our use.

    it is critical to me that this blog remain fact based and grounded in reality or we are no better than those pulling ‘theories’ out of their behinds. i will submit that unless and until we see direct evidence to the contrary, that we should presume that the defendant’s CCW permit was valid and cease to promote rumors as facts.

    • Dave says:

      Quite right.

      As I recall, the couple had two guns (at least): the murder weapon (a KelTek 9mm) and a larger .40 caliber KelTek.

      Although both Shellie and her husband had ccw permits, I believe that the latter was the only one who routinely went armed, he chose to carry the more compact 9mm, leaving the heavier .40 at home.

      “Shellie’s gun”, “Fogen’s gun”, “THE gun”–it doesn’t matter. The defendant was legally carrying it and illegally killed an innocent, harmless kid who was going about his lawful business.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @dave

        that’s pretty much how i see things.

      • ay2z says:

        They had two?? And the other was a 40 mm??

        Wow, because of what John (I think…. witness 6) said first thing to fogen that night. Wow.

        • I think U mean .40 cal………..40MM is an antiaircraft gun

        • cielo62 says:

          ay2z~I never read anywhere that they had TWO guns, and that one was a 40mm, UNLESS it was the discredited newstory from early on that stated they had matching his/her guns.

          • I WOULD NOT want to be shot by a 40MM as the projectile is over an inch & a half in diameter…..used as an anti aircraft weapon..

            .40 Cal. is what they meant I believe.

            Actually I wouldn’t want to be shot with any type of firearm….

      • Dave says:

        ,40 caliber. That’s about 10mm.

      • towerflower says:

        I had only guessed that they possessed the same type of gun since they both had licenses. Normally a concealed carrier has a smaller firearm that can be concealed easily. The larger the gun the harder to conceal. Normally, the smaller the gun the less accurate it is, short barrels have a limited accuracy range, the longer the barrel the more accurate it is especially at longer distances.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I remain curious about who had what gun and what permit to own/carry it. However, it’s true that I don’t care if Fogen was toting a Wyatt Earp burp gun … what he did was horrendously wrong and he needs to pay with life in jail.

      • towerflower says:

        TrainedObserver: The license to carry is just that, a right to carry. It isn’t attached to any firearm, it is attached to a person and both Shellie and fogen had a license. The state of Florida does not require a permit to own a gun nor do they require a registration of any firearm. The only restrictions are ones in place to buy a gun.

    • towerflower says:

      fauxmccoy, thank you, I knew I had an unpopular viewpoint and I’m not supporter of fogen in the least. Even the State not taking measures to suspend it (if they haven’t) isn’t suspicious to me since his bond restrictions are more restrictive—-he can’t be in possession of a gun at all, regardless if his license is still good or not.

      We don’t need to be like the nutters and pass rumors around as facts when the facts actually state otherwise.

  5. ay2z says:

    Question, scroll through this video and start at 2.00 minutes in, for the last section. Marker 15 is the sound editing ‘bookmark’ numbered ’15’ which is the last cry or word of Trayvon ;less than a second before the shot ended hs cries.

    My ‘perception of the word was ‘OHP’, and the fogen said he sat back and said ‘ohp’.

    Was this the mark in the 911 call that Dr. Reich interpreted as ‘stop’?

    (the use of ‘marker’ in the description was chosen without considering confusion with DNA ‘markers’– it’s simply a mark point with a number as a position along the audio recording.

    • ay2z says:

      The woman caller says ‘yes’ and ‘ohp’ follows and could be overlapped to mask sthe ‘st…’ sound in this unenhanced version.

      I previously assumed the word might be ‘whoa’, that is cut off to sound like ‘ohp’. Whoa and stop mean the same thing. the expert hears ‘stop’.

    • ay2z says:

      Dr. Reich’s report, p. 3:

      Consequently, the resulting sound pressure level of the final male pre-gunshot utterance is 30.4 decibels (dB) below the Woman Caller’s “Yes.” When the amplitude level of the final word before the shot was digitally gained or amplified by a factor of ten, the word appears to be “stop” not “help,” as preciously perceived by some listeners. Perceptually, the two monosyllabic words are quite similar and easily confused, especially within the context of a high-effort production.

      It seems that even fogen heard Trayvon call out ‘…ohp’ or ‘stop’ as he began to squeeze the trigger.

      He may have paralleled his description of Trayvon’s words at the moment he was about to shoot him, and turned it to self-serve. Someone may have heard him cry ‘stop’ and at that moment, he was still alive. The story of fogen missing Trayvon, thinking he did not hit him, fits his need to explain Trayvon’s final utterance.

      • Malisha says:

        “Ohp” could be the beginning of “Oh please” — ?

      • towerflower says:

        His story of thinking he missed him is just that a story, just fiction. In his video interview prior to his voice stress test he explains that he had to take careful aim so as not to shoot his left hand and he also said he knew he was on him when he fired the shot. His stories afterwards about thinking he missed are total BS.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @ay2z

      Fogen claimed Trayvon’s last words were “Ow Ow” and I thought that might be one of Fogen’s rare truths. Should have been very soft, as that would have ben his last breath.

      I guess Dr. Reich didn’t quite hear “You’re going to die tonight, motherfucker!” which Zimmerman claimed were Trayvon’s “next to his last words.”

      • ay2z says:

        Yes, and the last word before he shot Trayvon, was ‘STOP!’ — if Reich is right about the covered ‘ST…’ it’s devastating for fogen, esspecially since it completes the word he himself claims.

      • towerflower says:

        Fogen also said that TM said “you got me,” which also was never picked up.

    • towerflower says:

      I’m willing to bet they had 2 guns, his and hers. If they were the same type/model, I could see picking up one and not knowing whose was whose especially if they were stored in the same place…….(I hope that was the case). I said in another thread that I don’t find it suspicious that it was Shellie’s gun. Florida does not require the registration of guns and when the cops say it was Shellie’s it only means that they traced back who bought the gun and Shellie’s name is on it.

      GZ attempted to buy more guns after the shooting but evidentially only went with a borrowed one from his buddy Osterman, that is the gun that was found in the vehicle when he was arrested.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Tower,

        My recent post said GZ bought the French gun & armor-piercing ammo – MY ERROR, MEA CULPA – but what was Ex-Cop Osterman doing with this cop-killing rig???

        Going to shoot some terrorist in-flight and smash right through the fuselage at 30,000 feet, with rapid fire – and even more rapid depressurization?

        A fun guy to have around …

        No Friendly Skies when Osterman’s aboard!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        No one seems to know Osterman in the air marshall biz.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tower flower/ IIRC GZ was flat broke. He had to borrow money from his parents to leave the state. I think that he made a show of bring “fearful” by looking for another gun. He couldn’t afford it and he knew it. In the end, he bummed one from Osterman. He also had a knife; I wonder what that was for?

        Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ugh, the thought of Fogen running around with a pistola AND a knife . . .

      • towerflower says:

        Osterman had worked as a cop and was (if true) working as an
        Air Marshall and as such they can get access to ammo that the general public cannot plus there is AP ammo that the general public can possess. Read this article: http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/air-marshals-training

        You’ll see that depressurization is not an issue but hitting other vital parts of a plane are. Still I doubt that armor piercing ammo is used by an air marshall–what they do use is classified. From what it says they are provided a firearm so I highly doubt that he would have loaned fogen his work issued firearm–that would be stupidity in least.

  6. Jun says:

    Okay if he is actually CCW’d, who was the one who lightbulbed that this was a good idea?

    A guy who molests his cousin and attempts to rape her, beats on cops, attacks women, stalks and harasses people, kicks a dog, terrorizes little kids

    • towerflower says:

      Jun……I listed the disqualifiers and Mr. Leatherman has them above. He was never charged with rape or attempts to rape, his assault on the cops were downgraded to resisting arrest without violence–a misdemeanor and also not a disqualifier. The domestic violence order was no longer in force. That left nothing in his record to even raise an eyebrow.

      I don’t like it anymore than you do, but there was nothing known to us that was a disqualifier when he applied and received his CCW.

      • Jun says:

        That’s not my issue, my issue was who’s bright idea it was to do so

        And I believe pretrial diversion programs also hold a period of time where you can not have a CCW

        As well as his restraining order, was it temporary or lifetime? There’s also a restriction period after a restraining order ends

        I am just saying, considering the history, the CCW department should not be bound by what is written but also given discretion and in this scenario, discretion would have been warranted

        We are talking about a lying, scamming, scheming, violent jerkoff named Fogen

        He’d already had complaints about his aggressive patrols where he pretends he is Dirty Harry with neighbors

        My point is that it was not a good idea

      • Cercando Luce says:

        He needed 3 years after the end of his “diversion” program, which was extended 90 days in 2006. So, as soon as that was over in 2009, he and Shellie applied. I say the pitbull story is embellishment; they were just waiting until the 3 years were up.

      • towerflower says:

        This is the long version of the Florida rules on your issues:

        DISQUALIFYING CRIMES: MISDEMEANOR VIOLENCE (not domestic violence)

        You will be disqualified if you have been found guilty of, or had adjudication of guilt withheld for, a misdemeanor crime of violence UNLESS THREE YEARS HAVE ELAPSED SINCE PROBATION OR ANY OTHER COURT-IMPOSED CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED (or the record has been sealed or expunged.) This does not apply to misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence.
        DISQUALIFYING CRIMES: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

        If you have been convicted of a domestic crime of violence, you will be deemed ineligible unless you can show proof of one of the following three conditions:
        a) that you have received relief from federal firearms disabilities;
        b) that you have received a presidential pardon; or,
        c) that a court has sealed or expunged the record.

        If you have had adjudication of guilt withheld or imposition of sentence suspended on any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, you will be INELIGIBLE for licensure UNLESS THREE YEARS HAVE ELAPSED SINCE PROBATION OR ANY OTHER COURT-IMPOSED CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED (or the record has been sealed or expunged).

        MISCELLANEOUS DISQUALIFYING CONDITIONS

        *If you have been issued an injunction that is currently in force that restrains you from committing acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violence, you will be disqualified from eligibility until that injunction is no longer in force.

        His arrests were downgraded to a single charge of resisting arrest WITHOUT VIOLENCE. That is the key and no longer shows a crime of violence. Even if it was considered the waiting time had been met. (charged–2005, license 2009, 4 yrs passed).

        He had a temporary restraining order against him with a limit of one year. It was not renewed and expired after that one year. He was never charged with a crime of violence even if he had been once again 4 yrs passed from the incident (2005) and 3 yrs passed from the time of the order of protection. With orders of protections though it only says the disqualifier is if it is still in force–no time limit after expiration.

        The State division is bound by the laws and there was nothing in fogen’s past to prevent him from obtaining a CCW. Most of what we know about fogen now was not known back in 2009. Even the complaints about his patrols happened after he already had his license.

        I don’t like fogen either, I’m only stating what I have found and can prove.

    • looolooo says:

      Jun…….hey you forgot to mention all the mentoring of young balack children. sure, all that other stuff is true, but the mentoring is what he’s proud of the most. Bletch!

      • towerflower says:

        What bothers me is his statement of how he carried everywhere except at work, that meant he carried when he mentored (if he mentored anyone) the kids. As a parent I would question the need of a person carrying while mentoring my kid.

      • looolooo says:

        Yeah, that’s a scarry thought. I wonder if he’s paranoid, or just really, really likes to carry guns because of the way they make him feel.

        Has it ever been confirmed that he and Shellie have EVER mentored ANY kids, let alone balaack kids? Maybe they mentored onlne….kinda like Shellie’s nursing school thingy. Fogen a mentor? What parent in their right mind would leave their child alone with that under-achieving mental midget?

      • Malisha says:

        I do not believe Fogen ever “mentored” a single kid. Jess sayin… I do not believe Fogen made any efforts to defend Sherman Ware’s civil rights (or anybody else’s civil rights for that matter). None of these things is proven anywhere; there is no evidence of these things anywhere; all there is (in the final analysis) is “Fogen says” and “his family agrees.”

        By that token, Fogen says and his family agrees that he was going to Target, got out of his car to look for a street sign, got attacked by a thug and had to kill in self-defense. By the same token, Fogen says and his family agrees that he’s a decent American and this was all god’s plan. By the same token, Fogen says and his family agrees that bad people caused the law to be perverted just in order to railroad him.

        I’m seeing a pattern here.

      • boyd says:

        I don’t believe he mentored kids either. His GPA is too low 🙂

        I also do not believe he’s this extra ordinary Christian that he and family are trying to project. He would not have called the kid an asshole, then tracked him armed.

      • towerflower says:

        I don’t believe he mentored any kids, this would have been a great PR story for GZ by the parents of the kids, they could have protected their identity in the process like they did with the coworker from Car-Max.

        I also don’t believe that fogen passed out pamphlets at black churches. I’ve seen a copy of this pamphlet and it is a rant against the chief of police in Sanford. Mr. Ware is never mentioned by name or race and is only referred to once as a homeless man while the Chief of police is mentioned over a dozen times. His speaking at the community meeting also centered on the Chief and his getting a pension–he was against it. But one thing it wasn’t was a civil rights issue.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Jeb Bush, probably. The same guy who lightbulbed the Stand-Yer-Ground law.

    • Jun says:

      Testing????

  7. towerflower says:

    When the amplitude level of the final word before the shot was digitally gained or amplified by a factor of ten, the word appears to be “stop” not “help”, as previously perceived by some listeners. Perceptually, the two monosyllabic words are quite similar and easily confused, especially within the context of a high-effort production.
    Of course, the fact that the speaker of the final word was rendered silent by the weapon’s discharge and George Zimmerman was not, also suggests the identity of the “boy” who was crying.
    Alan R. Reich, Ph.D.

    That is some of the conclusions of Dr. Reich.

    • Come arrest me…..I blow a hole in fogens heart without that much evidence against him

      Would it be legal to challenge fogen to a duel?

      his choice of weapons…just rememeber I’m an old fuk with vision problems….

      We all bled red…….

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hey Pat,

        I see this is a night where you are filled with anger. A night following the information that we have received from the voice analysis experts. We are continuing to see how the evidence continues to incriminate gz.

        Yes, you are incensed that dear Trayvon was at the mercy of gz. Trayvon’s pursuer offered no mercy to Trayvon….not even when Trayvon begged for his life. Yes, it is horrifying. I shutter when I hear Trayvon’s excruciating cry for help when he was looking death in its face.

        But, peace, brother. You can relax because this case is going to be tried through our judicial system. Please let me gently suggest to you that you can allow yourself to cool down.

        Sybrina and Tracy are offering us a beautiful way to deal with this horrific tragedy. They are steadily seeking justice through our court system. Let’s follow their example and calmly watch things unfold as the case is tried in court. Let us honor and support Sybrina and Tracy by following their patient example.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • ay2z says:

        It might be called a duel at the start, but now long would it be before the fogen turned tail and skidaddled as fast as his little legs would carry him?

        Wouldn’t even have to waste a pea from a pea shooter to win that one!

  8. Shari says:

    follow

  9. kllypyn says:

    What could happen once the scream tape is played.)

    There is dead silence in the court room as the scream tape is played for the jury. when the shot rings out and the screams instantly stop.A glance around the court room show the jurors have tears in their eyes the women on jury are crying.Ms Fulton is crying uncontrollably. Jahvaris has his head in his father’s lap his shoulders shake slightly as he is also crying.

    Tracy stares stoicly ahead tears streaminmg down his face. Trayvon’s girlfriend is hysterical as she is led from the court room.That is the first time she had ever heard that tape she had refused to listen to it before. Trayvon’s friends and class mates are also crying. A couple of girls have run from the room. George zimmerman just sits there no reaction at all. And his family just sit there trying not to show emotion but it is clear they are angry. His lawyers have their heads buried in their hands they know they have just lost the case.(Not that they had much of a case.)

    The judge orders a brief recess. Court reconvenes. People are still shocked by what they’ve heard. Sybrina sits occasionally glaring at Zimmerman. tracy sits patting sybrina on her back trying to comfort her and keep her calm.Jahvaris stares angrily at Zimmerman.He is struggling to keep his anger in check.tears still occasionally drop from his eyes. Prosecution begans.”ladies and gentelmen of the jury. “You have just been ear witnesses to the murder of !7 year old Trayvon benjamin Martin” You have heard his screams for help. You’ve heard him beg for his life.

    You have aslo heard the defendant as he used profanity against Trayvon,interrogated him and threatened him. Hardly the behavior of a man who was in fear for his life.””Trayvon was no threat to zimmerman. He was not Defending himself when he killed Trayvon.When trayvon refused to cooperate he got angry and killed him in a fit of rage. After grabbing Trayvon he allowed his anger to reach a point whene he lost control and now an innocent barely 17 year old boy was sent screaming to his death.”

    This whole tragedy could have been avoided if he had simply stayed in his truck and waited for law inforcement,and let them handle it. Because of his actions trayvon never got to go to his senior prom. Because of his actions Trayvon will never graduate high school.Because of his actions Trayvon will never go to college.Because of his actions trayvon will never get married and raise a family. Because of his actions Trayvon will never grow old and have grand children.Because of his actions Trayvon lays in a crypt never to walk the earth again.

    I remind you he had trayvon restrained by his shirts when he killed him. When you go into that jury room do not forget you can’t claim self defense when you prevent the escape of the person you kill.

    • it’s all true Kelly, every single thing you said. i’m speechless.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Me too shannoninmiami. this is going to be hard on Sybrina, Tracy and Jahvaris and, they all have my LOVE and Prayers to help them get through this other than the loss of Trayvon, toughest time in their lives. may GOD give them the strength to get through this trial, just as he has helped them with their loss of their baby boy and brother.

        These people have more grace and dignity that the family of Fogen could ever imagine having. they have shown nothing but class and just how morally rich they are. Gladys Zimmerman can learn a lot about status and class from Lady Sybrina Fulton.

    • Shari says:

      I agree with almost every point. I would further say that it wasn’t about Fogen staying in his truck. It should have been about Fogen not suspecting Trayvon was a criminal or an “asshole” who was going to get away. There was NOTHING Trayvon was doing that was illegal. Fogen’s own hate and racism caused this whole murder to happen. I have always said that I don’t care about racists. Many of them are losers/down on their luck and need someone to blame for their troubles. I am beginning to change my stance. Racism is dangerous because thoughts turn into actions. If Fogen wasnt a racist he would never have dehumanized Trayvon. I still am not in support of hate speech laws, I call them thought crimes. Not a good area for the government to go into.

      I know there is more evidence. I want to see how the Zidiots will justify it. There is a political blog I used to visit. The owner is a dissatisfied Democrat. Full of Zidiots, when the trial starts and they hear the evidence I wonder when they will admit they were wrong.

      • kllypyn says:

        They will never admit they were wrong. They care nothing about the truth. They would read lies from certain websites.

      • disappointed says:

        Shari they will continue to blame the State. IMO There is no hope for anyone that has hate in their heart for a barely 17 year old. Even if Trayvon had been your typical teen with love and guidance they can turn into wonderful adults. I believe Trayvon would have been a wonderful responsible man. Basically there is no hope when all you see is the color of the skin and not the person. jmo
        Professor thank you for allowing me to comment. We did not get off to a great start. I promise in the future to stay away from the Terrorist post. Everyone here is great and very intelligent.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Trayvon WAS your typical teen and, to think he was anything less, is just plain wrong and unacceptable. just because a group of people who are racist to the core who can hate this child and blame him for what was perpetrated upon him by a racist maniac, does not in any way say that he was not a typical teenager because he was.

        His social media accounts were even hacked by white supremacist who wrote all sorts of bs and attributed it to Trayvon. you shouldn’t believe everything that is being said about this kid. especially by those with their own agenda of racial hatred.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Shari, they also don’t like the thought of African Americans who may have more than they ever will have in their lifetime and, this is the truth. they have even referred to Sybrina as being on welfare when she is NOT. this woman has been employed by the city of Miami Dade for the past 20 years or more. Tracy is a truck driver and is definitely employed as well.

        A lot of these people are not only filled with racial hatred, they are also full of envy.

        • Shari says:

          I agree with you. It was Fogen who was a loser unable to finish a 2 year degree. Almost in his 30’s and no career on the horizon. Did he REALLY think he was on track to be a judge? He and his wife were renters, didn’t own the place he wanted to defend with a gun. Didn’t have many possessions, always borrowing money from people.

          Contrast that with Tracy and Sybrina. Hard working Americans. One child in college, one on the way to college who was brutally murdered while screaming for help. Contrary to what they WANT to believe Trayvon was not a violent thug. His English teachers and coaches all had good things to say about him. Where are Fogen’s good character witnesses? The racist drunk Taffee? The angry Osterman? His family who he had been estranged from?

          They are so hateful that they don’t want to admit Trayvon is as American as they are and had the right to walk where he was walking. What an awful precedent Fogen tries to set. So if I go and visit someone I have to check in with the neighborhood racist so my child doesn’t get murdered? Why should he know EVERYONE who lives there? And why can’t they have guests? Who is he that another private citizen must defer to his rule?

          Tracy and Sybrina have been VERY patient and VERY respectful of the process. Honestly I don’t remember them saying ONE bad word about Fogen. All I remember her saying is he needs to be arrested. They pay her back by trashing her murdered son.

          6/10/13

          • Xena says:

            @Shari

            I agree with you. It was Fogen who was a loser unable to finish a 2 year degree. Almost in his 30′s and no career on the horizon.

            There are people who enroll in college for the first time when in their 30’s. They work full-time and have a spouse and/or child(ren) at home. They take two courses per semester, so it takes them longer to obtain an Associates, but they have vision and patience, knowing their other priorities and failing at none.

            When failing his courses, GZ did not change his major to something he could comprehend and achieve. Neither did he look for alternatives, such as vocations. That is what questions GZ’s ability to make mature, informed, realistic decisions. He’s incapable of doing so.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Shari and ladystclaire,
        Well said! I have been so upset by the racist comments.

        Trayvon DID have every right to walk home!

        Please see my comment at Click>

        http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/05/10/shellie-zimmerman-and-her-right-to-remain-silent/#comment-113380

      • Rachael says:

        Very good post.

    • Nef05 says:

      Excellent post. Only one thing to add, I hope they show the jury the photo Tracy Martin ID’d him from, with the eyes rolled back in terror, a tear sliding down his cheek and the saliva running from a mouth, forever open – frozen in a scream utter terror.

      Show the jury that face of terror WHILE he’s screaming for his life and let O’Mara try to spin that….

      Awesome post, Kllypyn.

      • Shari says:

        That is one of the reasons I am watching. If Fogen is found not guilty a dangerous precedent is set. The government is telling me that it is hunting season on my children, especially my pre-teen child who is big for his age. The government is saying that my ancestors were never freed. I must have my papers on hand to show them to anyone who asks. And who do I show them to? Fogen doesn’t LOOK like a white man to me. So do I just prepare them for anyone who asks? My husband and I are law abiding tax payers unlike Fogen. What gives him and his gang of white supremacists (Taffe, Osterman) the right to follow and harass every black face they see?

        As a patriotic American I was really embarrassed by the international protests. This whole case really undermines our ability to be a moral authority. No deals, he says he wants a trial give him his public trial and let him explain himself to the world. Let him explain how he was in fear for his life. Let him explain how HE was the cause of all of this. Let him explain WHY he assumed the victim was an “asshole” who always gets away. So the victim beat you near death and he has no DNA on his person to confirm your story? There is NO evidence of Fogen being assaulted by ANYONE. He is truly a sick man.

        If he does get away with it he won’t be the first or the last. People get away with murder, it’s something I have grown to deal with. Especially in Florida.

        And since the Zidiot nation is reading here is a message: Shame on you people. You say you are Christian well Jesus teaches you to love one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. One of the saddest things about the modern world that I have witnessed is segregated worship.

        6/10/13

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        gz is going to ask a jury to believe that a 207 lb adult male of 28 years, armed with a firearm was screaming in terror, while a 5’11” 158 lb unarmed teenager was not. But was administering a deadly attack (without ever being armed mind you, because gz never says that he ever had to recover his firearm from Trayvon, so it’s just talk/imaginings about the firearm gz never lost control of, that gz hopes will make Trayvon into a deadly threat) without getting any blood, saliva or dna on his hands or clothing.

        gz has a looooooong row to hoe!

  10. LLMPapa says:

    Professor, I have waited to use your profound, powerful words until now. Thank You for all you do.

  11. trina cosbie says:

    HLN attorneys are saying experts won’t be allowed in because reports are inconclusive. Well one thing is for certain between both reports & that is it was Trayvon screaming for help, with only two helps from Zimmerman. Four experts have analyzed this & still all say it was Trayvon. Now we have words that identify Fogen mocking Trayvon’s screams for help, along with these assholes always get away, dear God not on me. I pray this motion is granted. It will give more clarity to jurors to have an expert break down every minute detail, scream, words & utterances from 911 call. The most damning evidence to convict for murder 2 is Trayvon saying STOP right before he was murdered. That is what will Fogen bending & stretching for Bubba real soon!!

    • Jun says:

      I would not take what HLN says with a lot of weight

      They were repeatedly saying Jodi would be free, Jodi would get M2 or Manslaughter

      The experts will give their analysis and the judge and jury can decide for themselves

      Considering numerous on scene witnesses state it sounded like a kid, and the rest state there were screams for help which ended with the gunshot, I believe the judge and jury will give weight to it

      Lastly, all the experts have said the screams match Trayvon at a high percentage and match 2 to possibly Fogen at 14 and 15 so it sounds fairly conclusive that it was Trayvon that needed help and that means Fogen was the aggressor since Trayvon was in trouble first and at the last

    • umm yeah, I got pretty pissed watching hln’s coverage today, apparently they haven’t bothered to read any of the reports, and just went off of rene’s bogus story at the OS! I swear it’s like they didn’t even know what they were talking about!!

      • I want Alyce LaToilette as a witness for the defense and her ISTBFS defense….

        BTW….ISTBFS…”It Sucks To Be Fogen Syndrome”

        Peter Pan was an abused child you know….

      • kllypyn says:

        Every person with even a hint of brain cells and decency should know the sound of a teenagers voice. Zimmerpunk never was screaming for help and he knows it.

        if he had known at the time that those screams were being recorded he would have come up with a different lie.I also believe the Sanford police knew that was Trayvon screaming. otherwise they wouldn’t have had to be forced to release the 911 calls.

      • ladystclaire says:

        IMO, CNN is FOX NEWS JR. they have evolved into an unfair and unbalanced news network and, it’s a shame to.

      • looolooo says:

        @lady I noticed that about CNN also. And why is it that NO ONE EVER mentions the total lack of Fogenmeister’s satanic DNA on Trayvon’s hands, arms, cuffs, or under his finger nails? That’s HUGE! Not even Crump, Jackson, Parks nor other Trayvon Avengers mention it. Why?

    • ladystclaire says:

      I agree with Trent when he says Fogen’s charges should be up graded to M1. I have thought so long before today.

      • looolooo says:

        Me too …..lady, me too.

      • Malisha says:

        I believe he had his gun out way earlier than it is commonly admitted. He fumbled and thudded around a bit but he meant to get his bullet into Trayvon’s heart and he worked hard to accomplish that goal.

      • Malisha says:

        Remember Taaffe: “If Trayvon would have answered his questions, this wouldn’t have happened.” And then Chief Billy Lee? “I think Trayvon would have done things differently too.”

        Yeah. They just didn’t consider Fogen’s plan of bringing in (dead or alive) his quarry that night to be out of line with decent American expectations.

    • boyd says:

      don’t forget the experts did not hear what George said was being spoken . you gonna die tonight etc etc. there are other ways at ealuating this report..

      • LeaNder says:

        boyd, with all due respect, seems I am taking over onlyIamuntron’s job, but that is the exactly same approach that puzzled me when I was confronted with the expertise of Diwatman and Jeralyn Merritt, who based on Sony Sound Forge uncovered “what DeeDee really said” somehwer on the ABC audio file. Surprise, surprise, it was exactly what GZ supposedly said.

        I have still to see a software that converts speech with clearly swallowed up and/or slurred endings into clearly audible ones.

        One way or another not only what is on our minds changes what we see, not to the extend of Fogen maybe, it also seems to heavily interfere with what we hear.

        Besides, I am not completely sure that DeeDee remembers exactly what she heard. Maybe, but maybe not exactly.

      • cielo62 says:

        boyd~ don’t forget that no words were heard at all AFTER the shot, so… so much for gz’s story that Taryvon continued to curse and saying stupid shit like “you got me.”

      • Bill Taylor says:

        also NO sounds of a physical fight, during that entire 45 seconds fogen claims he was being brutally beaten with continuous punching head slamming and attempt to smother him…..ALL of those things would be heard on the tape IF they happened and NONE of that is heard…….and simply common sense = IF Martin had been beating on him like that for a full minute NO WAY on earth could he scream out like what is heard, he simply would be so out of breath from the physical exertion he would hardly be able to speak!

      • boyd says:

        Jeralyn is unhinged when it comes to this case. She considers George’s statement as facts.

        Diwataman is a fool

    • LeaNder says:

      dear God not on me.

      While the line he adds it to, seems to suggest something like that to me too, I would really like to hear what exactly he heard to understand his conclusions. maybe minus “dear God”.

      While he discusses interesting things we all perceived like the highly emotional state Fogen is in, his “analysis” does not convince me at all.

      Random pick, easily attackable:

      The other male speaker was identified tentatively as Trayvon Martin from the audio track of a digital video file presentation on Mr. Martin’s cell phone. His voice is younger and he generates much of what some observers have called screams. If a scream is defined in operational terms as a very high pitch and loudness level, then my findings would support that conclusion.

      What exactly is he saying here? You tent to raise your voice to a higher pitch, if you scream. Check it out, often true.

      And now this, remember frequency in physics is what we refer to as pitch too. There are frequencies that are beyond our capacity to hear, but not for animals, you dog will hear much higher frequencies, maybe occasionally howl in pain, while you are not hearing anything.

      On Call3, the first Format or Resonent Frequency of the /o*/ vowel in /stop/ is 870 Hz, about 10% above the adult male average. This value is highly appropriate for a 17-year-old male who likely still had 10% more growth remaining before reaching “adult-male” vocal-tract lenght, diameter, and tonicity.

      Remember above he defines a scream as pitched. Pitched is simply another way to refer to higher frequency or Hz.

      I am not denying that “the voice-behavior” of Fogen in his NEN call is odd, but for that we do not need a different type of scientist, maybe a psychologist? But I doubt defense will allow anywhere close to Fogen.

      • Nef05 says:

        IMHO, they don’t need to do that. It’s been done. That Coma scale thingy shows all indications of fight/flight syndrome nonexistent. So, at BEST he was faking which is still another lie.

  12. crazy1946 says:

    Boyd, Perhaps because Papa Fogen thought he had the officials in Sanford in his pocket and there was no need for the expense of an attorney?

  13. OMG!! did ya see what Trent posted about the audio analyses today!???

    I’ve haven’t seen it yet but gonna look for it!

    • disappointed says:

      shannoninmiami- WOW! First time hearing of Trent. I live under a rock apparently because he has a lot of videos. Must make time to watch more. Very colorful, but I love how he gets to the point. Thanks.

      • You too?? my new rock finally got internet, i’m so happy!
        check out his early ones about the time line and locations, especially the one that proves gz was on patrol that night creeping around the clubhouse with his * nonworking* flash light!

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @disappointed –

        Thanks for the info on the follow-up gun Zimmerman bought for himself after killing Trayvon – AND the armor-piercing ammo clips.

        After killing an unarmed kid toting candy and a can of tea, what the fook was Zimmerman hunting for next?

        A G-D Humvee? A BFV? Bradley tank???

    • two sides to a story says:

      LOL, Trent. Thank you.

    • LeaNder says:

      shannon, I like Trent, but I find Alan R. Reich not quite as convincing as he does. Very peculiar document. Too easy to pick apart it feels.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @LeaNder

        On analysis I too find it a “very peculiar document”. For one it is basically the same as his analysis published in the WP last year but now with religious interpretations, i.e.

        Mr. Zimmerman makes a seemingly
        religious proclamation, “These shall be.”

        and

        “His speech is characterized by the low pitch and exaggerated pitch contour reminiscent of an evangelical preacher or carnival barker”

        Somewhat weird for a formal forensic opinion, at least IMO, but maybe the prosecution had to release it under disclosure rules and are not actually planning to use it.

        • LeaNder says:

          gbrbsb, I don’t think they should use it and strictly I can now understand the motion by O’Mara much better, I doubt this type of expertise has any chance to be considered scientific.

          Mind you, I can understand people like it, it goes a far way into their direction. But scientific?

          The one Tzar linked to above is slightly better. But in a nutshell it is pretty much the same as the early report from the FBI analyst. Simple not enough data to base a solid evaluation on. So one has to ask how O’Mara’s expert arrived at the conclusion it was Fogen based on the same material.

          Reminds me that very early after the two expert’s takes were released I somehow tried to figure out if screams can at all analyzed easily. “Webwise”, I couldn’t find anything. Notice they have not much ordinary speech by Trayvon to compare with, either. At least one audio file is laughter. But admittedly I have no idea of phonetic forensics or their development admittedly. Is this all they can do? The only thing I had to deal with were speech, and that also to a very limited extend in linguistics.

          Besides the flood of motions in limine by prosecution, mind you I understand them, ultimately makes me wonder if prosecution would have enough to challenge character attacks on Trayvon, as the Prof has suggested. If they try, he told us, it opens the sluices to allow prosecution the same concerning their client.

          But yes, strictly it would be a good idea to keep that sick stuff out completely. I guess, while we are here concerned with the audio analysis the other camp is obsessed about the motions in limine that could render their “expertise” moot.

        • LeaNder says:

          gbrbsb, I don’t think they should use it and strictly I can now understand the motion by O’Mara much better, I doubt this type of expertise has any chance to be considered scientific.

          Mind you, I can understand people like it, it goes a far way into their direction. But scientific?

          The one Tzar linked to above is slightly better. But in a nutshell it is pretty much the same as the early report from the FBI analyst. Simple not enough data to base a solid evaluation on. So one has to ask how O’Mara’s expert arrived at the conclusion it was Fogen based on the same material.

          Reminds me that very early after the two expert’s takes were released I somehow tried to figure out if screams can at all analyzed easily. “Webwise”, I couldn’t find anything. Notice they have not much ordinary speech by Trayvon to compare with, either. At least one audio file is laughter. But admittedly I have no idea of phonetic forensics or their development admittedly. Is this all they can do? The only thing I had to deal with were speech, and that also to a very limited extend in linguistics.

          Besides the flood of motions in limine by prosecution, mind you I understand them, ultimately makes me wonder if prosecution would have enough to challenge character attacks on Trayvon, as the Prof has suggested. If they try, he told us, it opens the sluices to allow prosecution the same concerning their client.

          But yes, strictly it would be a good idea to keep that sick stuff out completely. I guess, while we are here concerned with the audio analysis the other camp is obsessed about the motions in limine that could render their “expertise” moot.

          • cielo62 says:

            Leander~ Voice analysis is an established science. I don’t think it will be blocked at all. The inconclusive ones (individual screams) will be left to the jury to decide what makes the most sense. MOM is just terrified because this science IS established. NO WAY can he get it blocked. Might as well try to block the DNA evidence.

      • LeaNder says:

        odd, sometimes I get a message about possible double comments. Why did I not get it this time?. Strictly if you answer via the WordPress notification bar above, the comment disappears once you pushed the return button and only leaves a return arrow trace on the comment notification. Since it is gone, strictly you could not post it again. Strange.

      • you know these are just basic reports that the prosecutor releases to the defense. I don’t think it’s a mistake that they say pretty much the same as before, except that little bit extra in Reich’s report. i’m not done reading the second one, but I noticed they’ve only analyzed one of the tapes. that may be a strategic move on BDLR’s part. he may WANT omar to go chase that rabbit?? he may have a lot more that could explain those very odd comments made by gz. we know BDLR keeps his game tight ( meaning he doesn’t let opponents know what his plans are) this could be the very reaction from omara that he wants!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The reason each side hires their own experts is, because the discovery process only requires them to turn over finished work and not unfinished work in progress. The Prosecutions experts worked on what the Prosecution directed them to work on and no more. They then wrote the reports which the Prosecution knows are discoverable.

          If the defense is stupid enough to believe that what they are getting is the final reports, then they are truly silly people. Why would BDLR have final reports created so that the defense could then use them without hiring their own experts? Instead you would divide the work into various segments and release the reports and data as each segment is finished. Best yet, if some segments would lead to erroneous conclusions, you’d certainly want to have that work done and completed first so that the reports would mislead the foolish. By trial time, the final reports on the other segments would come in, and create big defense “Oops we goofed again!” moments.

    • Rachael says:

      I sort of tried to listen for that but didn’t hear it – but it was very passively and only once – but the extra words don’t change anything for me. It still, combined with the fact he got out of his car and started running, shows me intent (premeditation I guess you could say) very clearly by itself.

    • towerflower says:

      OMG, now I understand why MOM wants to prevent any audio expert from testifying. I hadn’t read the stories yet but Trent’s video explains it all.

      • LeaNder says:

        Absolutely with you, towerflower.

        Admittedly the latest developments, holding this part of the discovery back so long after BDLR dropped the comment about two voices, and the flood of motions in limine by prosecution makes me wonder again if the prosecution’s case is as solid as we would like it to be. Just in case I incur ire with this statement, I am talking about evidence not in any way assailable by offering possible alternative scenarios.

        It surely would make the hard-core support camp foaming at the mouth, after all the needs to be what Fogen thought he was. But a possible compromise could be to leave both character “evidence”, or smearing Trayvon versus GZ out and leave out the voice experts too. After all, as we know for quite some time there is not enough pure scream material without voice interference to base a solid analysis on. And strictly we were told this a long time ago.

        Could the fact that it was released now mean, look we could use this type of argument too, O’Mara/West/Zimmerman?

      • LeaNder says:

        too fast again in adding a line of thought, and not allowing it to develop to its end.

        Maybe something like?

        after all the needs out there to make Trayvon appear to be exactly who Fogen thought he was.

        Or something to the effect in better English. 😉

      • towerflower says:

        I don’t think that leaving out TM’s past problems in school or the pot in his system are a sign that the prosecution is in trouble but a way to prevent the jury from getting information that might sway them regardless of other evidence from that night when his past has no impact on what happened that night.

        I can’t see the state using the new audio as a compromise to keep out TM’s past actions when from what I have read in the one report is so damning. If I was a juror and heard about TM’s troubled school issues and the smoking of pot, I could see that the defense would be trying to portray him as a punk/thug/never do well. But if I also heard the findings of the audio expect and heard what was brought out in fogen’s whispers and the id’ing of TM’s voice (they have a voice sample they got off a video on his phone) I would also be looking at fogen as someone who set out to stop this teen by any means. It also proves that once again he has lied about that night’s events. Lied about what was said, lied about the screams. I hope the state fights tooth and nail to keep the audio experts in, to me it would seal fogen’s fate.

    • Malisha says:

      Trent is just adorable.
      Even if he IS trying to hide his superb brilliance under a barrage of Plebian cuss words… he’s a breath of fresh air.

  14. boyd says:

    this is off topic, but why did not Fogen’s pop tell him to get a lawyer?

    • Shari says:

      I thought about that. Why did he blab so much? Why not be quiet? I suppose he was so sure he would get away with the murder that he didn’t need to be quiet. He would have but for the international protests. Remember how widespread they were? People were picketing our embassy in the UK.

      • Nef05 says:

        Indeed, there were petition signers from our deployed troops, overseas; from China; from Russia (I know, Russia – really?) , Korea, Canada (of course) and of course our allies (UK, France, Italy, Australia), There were at least a few from Africa, as well.

        As it gets closer to trial, I expect international coverage. People are invested in this, even if only in terms of watching how the USA metes out justice in the death of a legal, native born, minority child.

        It has huge implications for people trying to legally emigrate, if the take-away from this is they (legal minorities) and their children can be killed at will. Like the professor quoted before, justice must not only be done, it must be SEEN to be done.

        That (and Dershowitz unhinging on Corey) are the reasons I’ve never believed the prosecution would offer a deal, not unless voir dire convinced them they could not seat and impartial jury. (imo)

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Seemed like it’d be cheaper to charm the LE pals into not charging him.

    • Jun says:

      Because his pops does not know anything and he’s a corrupt piece of shit and you can tell when he said “make it all go away”

      • ladystclaire says:

        Jun, you hit the nail on the head with your comment about Zimmerman senior. he is a piece of caca for sure. speaking of making something go away, I wish he and his entire Klan would go the hell away. if you ask me, he himself should be brought up on some charges for Obstruction of justice and perjury.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        to me it causes FEAR of our legal system when a person like fogen sr can be a “judge or magistrate” …the man clearly is not honest on any level….clearly could not possibly be “impartial”.

    • pat deadder says:

      boyd but why did not fogen’s pop tell him to get a lawyer.Because his pop probably told him not yo worry he would fix everything as usual.

      • lurker says:

        The missteps by family members and friends are many and puzzling. Dad certainly should have realized that he needed representation from the git-go, instead of writing defensive letters to OS. I think dad did come up with the first atty who specialized in wills or insurance or something. Then we had Abbott and Costello who called the press conference to say their client had disappeared.By the time O’Mara showed up, he looked pretty good by ccomparison.

        And his first press conference was about how he wasn’t going to be tried in the press.

        What were any of these people thinking?

        And that’s before wd even get into friends and siblings.

    • Trained Observer says:

      @boyd — Pop slikely did. But you know how Mr. Smoothey likes to see himself … able to talk his way out of any tight situation.

    • Bahama Mama says:

      gz and his parents were estranged at the time of the murder, I always felt the father was more interested in defending his “good family name” than defending his son. Osterman seemed more in charge, than papa z, and I doubt anyone was giving gz the required money for a lawyer.

  15. Jun says:

    Well, there is a refund for a necessary class for the ccw and his license was never revoked

    I am not saying it is not possible for him to be licensed but there’s two factors that say there is a possibility he was not

    • Rachael says:

      That’s a good way to put it. Someone in the last post left a very intetesting comment. I cannot wait for June 10.

    • maybe they didn’t take it away because he hasn’t been found *guilty*, by a jury, yet.
      but it won’t be long now..

    • towerflower says:

      Jun, I’ve been looking most of the day and could find no story or evidence dump that he ever received a refund of either his safety class or his CCW. What I’m wondering is if people got confused by the information in his state file for his license. They have a photocopy of a check from fogen used to pay for the license and I wonder if people thought that it was a copy of a check from the State back to fogen.

      But I could only find comments on other stories about this refund. Can you link me to an exact story or an evidence dump that shows this refund.

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. No — ask racer. My part is that there was no notice of suspending his CCL, and that he did not have a Class G license. Racer knows about the refund, but I did not search through discovery materials to find that info. What I do remember about the same report regarding the Class G license is that the amount submitted for the class is not the amount that is listed on the State’s website.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, A Class G license if issued to security guards and requires more training and actual shooting with a minimum passing score. GZ never received or applied for a class G license.

        • Xena says:

          @towerflower.

          Xena, A Class G license if issued to security guards and requires more training and actual shooting with a minimum passing score.

          Correct. I understand that any position that requires carrying a gun requires a Class G license.

          GZ never received or applied for a class G license.

          Correct. It might be that investigators wanted to know because he carried while on NW patrol. Rules of NW forbid that, so the only way GZ might be able overcome it was if he had a Class G license.

      • towerflower says:

        PS….the amount charged by the State for the application process is $117.00, is the same amount I paid 3 yrs later. That doesn’t include the Sheriff’s Dept. fees for fingerprinting.

      • Jun says:

        One thing is for sure, he was not supposed to be carrying that night and another issue is why does he have Shellie’s gun

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, YES, Any armed security job/position requires a Class G license. This is where it could get murky. As a neighbor watch volunteer you are correct that you aren’t supposed to be armed and as such no license is required G or otherwise since you aren’t supposed to be armed. I would be curious to know if fogen was reimbursed for his “duties”, thus making him a security guard. If he was paid for his “duties” by the HOA and they knew he was armed then by law he needed a Class G license (since he is now in a position as an armed security guard).

        If he was nothing but a volunteer for the NW and the HOA didn’t know he was armed then he was nothing but a private citizen and not in a position of an armed security job. Then the only thing he legally needed was his concealed license, even though he violated the NW program rules it is not a law.

        • Xena says:

          @towerflower.

          If he was nothing but a volunteer for the NW and the HOA didn’t know he was armed then he was nothing but a private citizen and not in a position of an armed security job.

          I’m not so sure how that can or should be interpreted. The HOA gave authority for NW to exist in R@TL. GZ went beyond the scope of NW and actually patrolled the area. The HOA would be responsible for having volunteer applications. It’s my impression that the HOA’s failure to take responsibility for who volunteered for NW is reason why they settled with Trayvon’s parents.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The HOA would have been in a terrible position at trial. They’d be faced with their own promotional materials hawking gz as captain of the NW and referring members to him. Then would come the complaints that they refused, and the complaints they did not look into. The complaint they refused to even receive. It being well known that gz patrolled when he should not have, had others patrolling when they should not have. And he carried a gun and tried to mask his patrolling as dog walking. Went after children and falsely accused them, was not in good standing, was not a home owner, but a renter who was not paying his rent, under financial distress and taking mental prescriptions as well as possibly alcohol. In short, he was a deadly mess waiting to happen.

            The HOA wisely realized their case would not be a good one, and any defense they tried to put on, would only be likely to enrage the jury, as an administration unconcerned with fact, but only trying to foster a false image. They’d be toast and lucky to come away with a handful of grass after trial.

  16. colin black says:

    I agree but what concerns me is the fact he was armed with an even more powerfull body armour peirceing gun aka cop killer..

    How why when an how was able to go gun shopping after shooting a CHILD point blank almost centre chest.
    A kill shot…

    • Cercando Luce says:

      It is sick if you can kill someone and then go get another gun just because the current fashion is that guns make you feel so good, and a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.

      Your wife lies in court so she loses her permit to carry a gun, but you kill and lie about it, and hundreds of people send you money and declare you’re Jesus Christ, and you keep your CC permit? What’s going on in Florida?

      • Colin…..hollow points ARE NOT armor piercing, as per cops body armor……I believe a cop would rather have his body armor hit by a hollow point than an FMJ, as hollow points disperse their energy quicker due to rapid deformation on hitting a target.

      • disappointed says:

        mountainmanpat- I think Colin is speaking of the gun he was arrested with when he was arrested in Jacksonville. Apparently they are cop killers. I don’t know because I do not own a gun. My husband owns guns.

      • disappointed says:

        moutainmanpat- here is what I found: “Upon the completion of booking Zimmerman into the Seminole County Jail, SA Rogers transferred a Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FNH) Five-seven handgun cal. 5.7 x 28 SN# 386201358 and three magazines with ammo to SAS Duncan. SA Rogers stated that the handgun and magazines were the property of Zimmerman.”

        I believe this is the weapon Colin is speaking of. It has the ability to pierce armor. Also I believe he had 3 clips that holds 20 rounds each. This is the weapon he had in his vehicle in the glove box when he drove to Jacksonville.

      • towerflower says:

        disappointed……the gun was loaned to him by Osterman. He talks about it in his book and how he hopes to be able to retrieve it.

      • Nef05 says:

        @MMP – the one you describe is the one that killed Trayvon and was confiscated that night for evidence. Since he wasn’t convicted or even charged, there was no restriction on his license (if legal), until he went to Jacksonville to speak to Corey, without counsel. Remember they served the arrest warrant/capias information, at that same time.

        The “cop killer” gun and three 20 round clips, were what he had in his car at his arrest. Fear of “death threats” was what he claimed, if I remember correctly.

        • I heard he had a .25 auto BORROWED from oysterman when he was arrested…

          A .25 is hardly a cop killer, whatever ammo you have in it…

          Again…BORROWED from oysterman……So again the question….where is fogens firearm?….If he ever had one?

  17. Oh shit….shoulda read up thread…..TO just asked the same question….Sorry ’bout dat TO 😐

    • Trained Observer says:

      Hey, MMPat, we’re on the same page here. Something’s out of whack. Mrs. Fogen’s license was pulled after her little ol’ perjury charge. If a felony gun murder charge isn’t grounds for revocation, then what is? And Fogen’s apparently wasn’t. Which leads one to consider the fact that he didn’t have one. Lotsa unanswered questions here.

      • Yup…..same page…even the same book…

        Next question is where is fogens pistol?

        OR did he ever even buy one?………oysterman says he helped fogen pick it out…..true?……or just more fogen BS?

      • ladystclaire says:

        Oysterman can’t be trusted in nothing he says. he is the one who owned to piece that was on Fogen, when he walked into his arrest and charges of M2. imagine this fool driving to Jacksonville in order to talk to AC. how damn funny that he was met with a capias for his arrest.

        I guess the dummy was going to try talking his way out of being charged with his crime. he PINCHED his own fat ass this time, a whole yard of it at that.

      • Rachael says:

        MMP, that is an interesting question.

      • towerflower says:

        MMP and Observer…..I answer the question further above. Shellie’s was only suspended–the most the state can do with an arrest. Revocation only comes with a conviction.

        With fogen…..the bond restrictions are more restrictive then just suspending his license.

  18. Follow

    My question is…..Why was shellies CCW revoked when she was arrested for perjury………while there is no record of fogen having to surrender his?

    • Xena says:

      ShelLIE’s CCW was suspended.

      (Follow)

    • towerflower says:

      Xena is correct, Shellie’s was only suspended because she was arrested for a felony. If she is found guilty of the felony her license will be revoked for life, unless a pardon is given to her. If she is found innocent then her license will be restored/unsuspended.

  19. Trained Observer says:

    If his license was valid, then why wasn’t it revoked along with Mrs. Fogen’s (assuming it’s true that hers was) ? Looking forward to your post …

    • AC says:

      Violent, mentally unhealthy like GZ should not be able to carry firearms.
      The likely hood that incidences will happen are magnified due to his lack of impulse control – via his mental – illness; and the medication that he takes for his issues.

      Folks like Zimmerman are the ones society fears will be neighborhood terrorist; which is what GZ i.s a morally depraved nut.

      The kid was screaming bloody murder: I am begging you stop! Trayvon Martin was the one fighting for his life, not GZ.

      • Shari says:

        Agree. He should NOT be running around with a gun on his person at all times. It’s scary to think about this fact. I am NOT a gun grabber but this is insanity.

        Another comment about the police dept. They did some things right. They got him to talk because he was so comfortable, and there is more evidence available then I thought. We have DNA, his re-enactment, all of the police calls.

      • LeaNder says:

        Yes, thanks Tzar, finally we know why BDLR mentioned two different voices. It’s pity that the interfering “chatter” hinders a more solid analysis. But there you go.

      • towerflower says:

        AC, I agree with you. Sadly there are no safeguards to suspend/remove a person’s license while under the influence of various drugs, even mind-altering ones that fogen was taking and some he was taking long-term. It doesn’t sound like ADHD falls into being consider mentally incompetent and even if someone has been there is a catch-22 in the reporting. HIPA laws come into play and doctors can have their hands tied in reporting a patient. So it almost takes a judge declaring them incompetent or them spending time in an institution to stop them.

    • LeaNder says:

      I didn’t follow this topic carefully, ever, but I was definitively pleased about towerflower’s comments.

      To answer your question you should look into the conditions for Bail by judge Lester.

      Remember Team Fogen once had a motion about modifying conditions of bail? Not a whisper about could he be allowed to carry again to defend himself, maybe they didn’t really like to hit such a hot topic. 😉 But strictly no need to revoke, the bail conditions took care of ithat and the rest will be resolved at trial. One way, I think, not the other.

      • Nef05 says:

        I agree. Definitely hot. Aurora happened on July 20th. Motion to modify was August 23. While not connected on the surface (though I suspect both have mental illnesses that affect their perception of reality, which may be an underlying cause) There was probable no hope of asking for a carry permit under any kind of bond release and even less when the political climate was so wroth.

    • thanks Tzar! I was looking for that!
      trent made a video of the basic highlights I guess!

    • cielo62 says:

      My question exactly…. and has been for months!

    • towerflower says:

      This is my guess. There were two petitions to have his license revoked/suspended made to the Governor. One was before his arrest in which, by law, nothing could be done. One was after his arrest. In his bond hearing he is forbidden to be around a gun which is more restrictive than just having his license suspended.

      By law when fogen was arrested on a felony charge the most the State of Florida could do is suspend his license pending the outcome of the case. The Dept. Of Agriculture and Consumer Serivces (which handles concealed licenses) must be notified of the arrest by either the courts or LE. (Think of Shellie’s suspension). When/if he is convicted of the felony then his license will be revoked permanently unless he receives a pardon in his future. If one’s license is only suspended they are only forbidden to conceal carry outside of their home, it does not stop them from owning a firearm or having one in their own home. His bond hearing went beyond that and he is forbidden to have a gun in his possession……regardless, no guns means no need to suspend his license.

      That is my theory. Regardless, the court’s order is more restrictive.

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