Shellie Zimmerman and her right to remain silent

Friday, May 10, 2013

Good morning:

Lady 2 Soothe provided the inspiration for this article with the following comment about Shellie Zimmeerman and her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Legally, as GZ’s wife she could take the 5th.

However, if she takes that 5th she has to take the 5th for every single question they ask because if she even answers one question, just one, the protection of the 5th is gone. Which means, she would then have to answer every question she took the 5th on previously.

Here is my answer:

Pursuant to the Fifth Amendment, she can refuse to answer any question, if she believes that her answer might tend to incriminate her.

Since she is represented by counsel in a pending criminal case, her lawyer will probably be at her side to advise her whether to assert the 5th and refuse to answer.

She would not waive the 5th by answering just one question, or even several. She can assert it at any time, but if she were to assert it to avoid cross examination regarding a matter that she had testified about on direct examination, for example, the judge would remedy the situation upon request by striking her testimony and ordering the jury to disregard it.

Given the pending perjury charge and her potential criminal liability for aiding and abetting her husband to conceal the commission of the murder, we can reasonably expect her to refuse to answer any questions that delve into those matters. Therefore, I do not realistically see her being called to the stand. I will add parenthetically that it’s improper for a lawyer to call a witness to the stand to provoke the witness into taking the 5th in front of the jury. Where there is any reasonable likelihood that a witness will take the 5th, or should consult with a lawyer about taking the 5th before answering, a judge will not allow the examination to begin in the presence of the jury. Instead, she will excuse the jury and allow counsel to proceed with questions. If the witness asserts the 5th at some point, the judge will terminate the inquiry and prohibit the witness from testifying.

Shellie will no doubt appear with her lawyer who will likely advise Judge Nelson that he has advised Shellie to assert the 5th to all questions except her name and relationship to the defendant. Since she clearly has a valid reason to assert the 5th, I expect Judge Nelson will excuse her from testifying.

However, there is one legitimate way to prevent her from taking the 5th and Bernie de la Rionda has the power to do it. Since they both want something from each other, they can play let’s make a deal. For example, he could offer to dismiss the perjury charge, if she agrees to testify truthfully for the prosecution. The feds have written the playbook and all he needs to do is follow it. Here’s the way it works.

The agreement would have to be conditioned on her voluntarily submitting to an interview and polygraph test, if requested, to determine if she answered questions truthfully. He also would have to promise her use immunity for any information that she discloses in the interview and at trial, if he calls her to the stand. Use immunity means he could not use anything she said during the interview or the trial, so long as she tells the truth. Because of the use-immunity promise, Shellie would no longer be in danger of incriminating herself, if she cooperates and testifies. That means she could not assert the 5th and refuse to answer.

That still leaves the issue of the husband-wife privilege. Boar de Laze, Searching Mind and I have about beaten that issue to death without reaching agreement. BDL believes the defendant can prevent her from testifying against him by claiming the privilege. SM and I believe the privilege may not apply, if the testifying spouse (Shellie) is an uncharged coconspirator with her husband in a plot to conceal the commission of the murder and to evade prosecution by fleeing the jurisdiction.

It would make little sense for BDLR to play let’s make a deal with Shellie Zimmerman, if the defendant can prevent her from testifying against him. Therefore, he will not open the bidding unless he is certain that the privilege will not apply.

Finally, BDLR is an apex predator, not Santa Clause. He is not likely to seek Shellie’s cooperation or accept it, if offered, unless he believes that he needs it to convict the defendant. Allowing her to skate on a slam-dunk perjury charge without getting something that he needs in return is not going to happen. Keep in mind, however, that because they must prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt, prosecutors fear they must prove their cases beyond all doubt to be on the safe side. Having Shellie as a backup insurance policy to help disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt has to have some value even if she would be ab admitted perjurer.

I have give a lot of thought to this issue and as usual when I am in doubt, I come back to a fundamental rule, Keep It Simple, Stupid. The prosecution has the phone logs for the defendant’s calls as well as his text messages and emails. I’m pretty certain they contain devastating evidence. If that’s true, I would recommend not playing let’s make a deal with Shellie. Lying to the court while under oath at a bail hearing regarding a material matter is a serious matter. As a matter of principle, people who commit that crime should not be permitted to walk away without consequence because they frustrate and often defeat the truth finding process that is so essential to the due administration of justice and the legitimacy of our courts.

914 Responses to Shellie Zimmerman and her right to remain silent

  1. ay2z says:




    So, this means the state has the right to depose all of it’s own witnesses because they are also listed by the defense?

    OS reports that the defense list is the same as the state’s list, but there is a supplemental list added, don’t know if OS included that.

    Obviously she will toss the in-laws under the bus, or they will defend her with excuses that they did it all, not Shellie, or sumpin’.

    Seems the state can now get dig deep nto things with their own witnesses in depos.

    • ay2z says:

      from the rstuz article indicates that this info is not up todate with the supplemental list filed yesterday (Weds).

      The defense witness list, filed Monday by defense attorney Kelly Sims, includes eight names. Sims said they are all state witnesses.

      They include George Zimmerman’s sister, her husband; two credit union employees, a court reporter, a Lake Mary woman and two investigators with the office of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey.

  2. Mary Davis says:

    @ Pat. I ditto PiranhaMom’s reply. God Bless.

  3. pat deadder says:

    I won’t be able to follow for a bit but just wanted to say whoever you all are, your families should be so proud of each and every one of you.I’m so thankful to have found this refuge.You are all special and intelligent people.Luv Trent Sawyer as well. In the next week or so I’ll miss being able to come here but at least Trayvon’s family will be a week closer to justice not that it will bring their precious son back.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      Wherever you’re headed for the next week or so, Pat, take care. Whether it’s to the wilds of the Canadian North (where the horseflies are as big as SST’s – and twice as hungry) or off to the local surgical suite for a new arm or a leg, we’ll be thinking about you – and welcome you on your return. God be with ye!

  4. Xena

    Check your email!

    • Xena says:

      @SG2. Got it and replied.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Xena….. my mind is wandering.
      Sometimes I wish, I dream, that I could join Trayvon as he leaves the 7-11 and warn him of the stranger that lurks ahead and warn Trayvon to somehow detour the danger ahead to avoid the misery and death ahead.

      But, sadly, it is fantasy to try…..the suffering is there….the reality of what occurred cannot be undone.

      And, this song of going home….to the comfort of home….. keeps going through my mind:


      >Well, life is a constant journey home.
      Sometimes I think if I could be back where it started,
      I’d be where I’m goin’.
      But, I’ve no time for the fun of philosophiz’n.
      The reality of suffering is more than’s before my eyes.
      And reality used to be perceived
      Or be with the other eye.

      Well, the sun is but a’more up in the sky.
      And all the Earth decide where life comes,
      If you a mind to, you can fly.
      And, I say, “woman, woman, how do you know my name?”
      But my mother never told me I …….
      Don’t tempt me to wander in pastures of fantasy.
      Troubles mi’ turn too easily their faces from reality.
      Well it’s round,
      Round the cycles of life
      If all is joy and bliss,
      It seems as where I’m goin’ to strive.

      Who carried me before I was born?
      Who wished me misery
      As I lay at rest in the warmth
      Of my mother’s tender breast?
      Well, life is a constant journey home.
      And sometimes I think if I could be back where it started
      I’d be where I’m goin’.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Somehow, I think of this song as Trayvon’s song……just wanting to get home.

  5. FactsFirst says:

    I know y’all prolly tired of hearing about fogen’s concealed weapons permit, but get a gander of this ~~~>

    Click to access zimmerman-fdle-gun-permit-documents.pdf

    Here’s what I found interesting:

    “Appication for concealed weapons/firearm license (fogen) dated December 9, 2009
    Certificate of Training (Firearms Safety Training Class)dated November 7, 2009”

    Didn’t fogen call to report a burglary at his buddy Taaffe’s home on Novenber 1, 2009? (scratches head)

    then theres this~~>

    “Copy-Sanford Police Department request for Zimmerman’s application packet dated FEBRUARY 29, 2012”

    Could be nothing, but I thought fogen gave the SPD his permit the night in question and shouldn’t they have requested that sooner since a child killer was claiming self defense?


    “Email correspondence between Whitney Shiver (Division of Licensing) and Mr. J. Willie David of the Florida Civil Rights Association”

    Well damn! I wonder what’s in those emails… just saying…

  6. Just got back. I had to leave to take my little Jay to the doctor. I’m trying to catch up on all the comments. Wow! All I can say at this point is the night has ears. Sweet Jesus!

    • ladystclaire says:

      SG2, the night also has a thousand eyes as well! I hope your little one is doing fine and that he will get better soon.

      • @Lady

        A thousand eyes indeed! Do you know Rene Stutzman changed the title of her original article? Give me strength, Lord! Jay has an ear infection along with a virus. He’s been so sick and running a high temp.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @SG2, give the baby a kiss for me and, hopefully he will feel better real soon. It’s really bad when a child is sick and, it’s takes a toll on mommy as well. I know because, I’ve been there and done that. so you take care of yourself as well as your little one. I know he is feeling pretty rough right now but, GOD is in the business of healing and, I know he has a healing for Jay. I send you both my love and prayers.

      • @Lady

        Thank you so much. Jay is my little 4 yr old grandson. He got sick late Sunday evening and his mother took him to the ER. He had a temp of 104 but doctors at the ER couldn’t find the problem until today. I took him into his regulat dr. b/c his mother had to work. He was crying this afternoon b/c his ear hurt so hopefully the medication will start to work soon. My little Jay is always so loving and happy and it hurts to see him crying.

  7. Shari says:

    I guess it’s time to take another break from the case. I can very easily put myself in poor Trayvon’s shoes. Being a victim is a traumatic experience. Fogen is an evil sociopath. Wonder if Hannity will EVER apologize for his conduct. There is NO excusing Fogen’s hunting of an innocent child.

    • ladystclaire says:

      There is no way this racist redneck Hannity will ever apologize for his conduct. after all when Fogen was found out to be the murderer that he is, he called two of the most racist subhumans in the country, Sean Hannity and Terry Jones. Terry Jones is suppose to be a man of the cloth but, IMO he is the devil himself pretending to be one of Jesus disciples, when he is actually a Judas.

      • Malisha says:

        Folks like Terry Jones would have crucified Jesus of Nazareth all over again three days later if they learned he had survived. AND told him they were doing it for God.

  8. disappointed says:

    Thanks for all the links! The voice analysis is heart breaking. Obviously everyone here knew who the screams belonged to-but when a professional determines it to be true. Disgusting. Trayvon also said STOP, guess that did not mean anything to z.
    Z shot imo for one reason, he assaulted Trayvon and he would have been the one going to jail. There is no way law enforcement could have rolled up and z walk away IF Trayvon lived. Trayvon and all the witnesses would have told them what they saw and heard and Trayvon would have said I am staying right down here this maniac just grabbed me…. IF he walks then all I can say is Florida must like letting killers remain on the streets.
    I do pray that Trayvon’s family gets Justice and I hope z rots in hell.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @disappointed, I’m hoping for the same thing and even more when it comes to this LYING MURDERING B*****D. what he did imo was first degree murder and not second degree. also for those who stood by that night and, allowed this to happen, may they also rot in hell and, when the time for them to meet their maker comes, I hope they suffer like hell. they all along with Fogen and his family as well as those who support him, deserves the most painful and harshest death that GOD can give them.

      Hopefully Judge Nelson will not delay this trial just because, the defense is not ready when they have had ample time to get ready. they have also had time and enough money to hire their own experts. instead they were conferring with their FELLOW RACIST over at the CSH. it seems to me that the Florida bar should sanction both of these attorneys for associating with this group in such a manner. they both deserve to be disbarred from practicing law in any state in the country.

      • disappointed says:

        If the witness that came out and said he was going to call 911, would have just stayed outside Trayvon more than likely would have lived. As soon as he turned his back on z, he pulled the trigger.
        Honestly I don’t care if Trayvon is throwing him up against the building, dragging him around by a fat roll, or kicking him in the face. Don’t bring a gun to a fist fight! In fact how about we just not put our hands on other people’s children.

        And as far as his supporters are concerned it gets really old every time some 17 year old breaks the law and they compare him to Trayvon. How would they like it if we did the same with every 27 year old law breaker? Apples and oranges. My 3 children are so different from each other, I honestly question whether I am their mother! (kidding)

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly !! I’m so different from 2 younger brothers and 1 older sister, everyone who knows us says I must be the milkman’s kid. One brother and my sister say Trayvon must be guilty becasue…not that they believe Fogen, just that they are, how can I put it…….bigots.

          And, keep your criminal hands off the kids……

  9. ay2z says:

    OS article todaya bout the new audio evidence:

    That evidence was made public Tuesday. It remains to be seen whether jurors will hear about it at Zimmerman’s trial, which is scheduled to begin June 10 in Sanford.

    But Zimmerman’s lawyer says he may ask to delay the trial in light of the new analysis; The defense may need an additional expert to counter one of the new state reports, defense attorney Mark O’Mara told the Orlando Sentinel. ….

    Okie dokie…. how about a delay so defense can get it’s discovery obligations fulfilled?

    Geeze, didn’t they see this need a little earlier? Didn’t they pay attention at the hearing that Xena shares a clip from in her last video Pt 1?

    • ay2z says:

      from the same OS story:

      Natalie Jackson, an attorney for Trayvon’s family, said she believes the state reports are consistent with each other, and that both voices can be heard in the background of the call. Both were in distress, she said.

      “Clearly one of the voices that was in distress was Trayvon. … He was in distress to get away,” she said.

      One team of analysts, Harry Hollien and James Harnsberger of Forensic Communication Associates, broke down the recording scream by scream. ….

      …. wrote there were near matches for several individual cries. Some of the first eight came close to matching Trayvon’s voice, they wrote, while the 14th and 16th came close to matching Zimmerman’s.

      In a separate evaluation, analyst Alan Reich wrote that, while two voices are heard in the audio, he believed the cries came from “the younger of the two male speakers, Trayvon Martin.”

      According to Reich’s analysis, the “resonant frequency” of the vowel in last scream — likely the word “stop” — is about 10 percent above “the adult male average” and therefore “highly appropriate” for a still-maturing teenager.

      Reich previously provided similar analysis for the Washington Post in a May 2012 report, concluding the voice was Trayvon.

      Reich’s analysis is the one O’Mara says he doesn’t agree with, but apparently he hasn’t talked to an expert about that yet, just a lawyer’s opinion so far, apparently.

      This is the one he wants the maybe trial delay for, to get someone to rebut Reich’s conclusions.

      • racerrodig says:

        I have a better chance of getting younger than O’ Mara has of finding an expert to refute any of the States witnesses.

        I’ll let you all know if my hair gets darker, I lose weight, get taller, run faster, jump higher, have better vision, or exhibit any symptoms from the Fountain of Youth.

      • @ Racerodig

        bwa ha ha ha ha ha

    • Rachael says:

      A delay? A DELAY???!!! But I thought he was so sure, this was locked up so tight, blah, blah, blah. It was said in the very beginning that they didn’t know if the voice was Trayvon (they had no expemplar on him) but the knew it wasn’t GZ – so why does he wait until NOW to get an additional expert? I mean he was so sure and himself stated it was GZ. NOW he wants a delay???!!!

  10. Malisha says:

    Towerflower, I don’t trust anything Officer Tim Smith says about what happened that night. I think Tim Smith was plotting the cover-up with Fogen on the ride into the station house after the murder.

    • towerflower says:

      I agree with you Malisha, Off. Smith fingerprints are all over the place. He is the only one who says he saw that fogen’s back was wet and covered in grass. Even other statements from officer’s reference what Off. Smith told them.

  11. racerrodig says:

    “…do you regret getting out of the car, to follow Trayvon….”

    “No Sir” (Any black kid I could profile that happened along was good enough, what’s the difference?”)

    “…do you regret that, you…you had a gun that night?”

    “No sir” ( Naaaa, see I was gonna use it on somebody, someday….um……it was just a matter of time.)

    Yep, he was born under a Bad Sign alright.

    • Xena says:

      @racerrodig. IMO, GZ was stumped on the question of if he had not had a gun, would he be there for that interview. No, he would not be there for that interview because Trayvon would be alive and GZ would not be arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.

      But the stupid a-hole didn’t know how to explain his answer because the thought of not having his gun was not real to him. So, he really thinks it was God’s plan for him to carry a gun while pursuing an unarmed teen.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “So, he really thinks it was God’s plan for him to carry a gun while pursuing an unarmed teen.”

        Infuriating. :[ I noticed God is getting back, though.

      • Xena says:

        Two sides. Oh yes! Maybe GZ did not learn in Sunday School the following verse: “Be ye not deceived. God is not to be mocked. What one sows, the same shall he reap.”

      • ay2z says:

        And,, with his ‘god’ on his side, he was in the right, and killing would not be murder.

        As Serino said to fogen, as he tried to extract what made Trayvon so upset, if Trayvon saw the gun, or thought he was grabbing for a gun when he went for his cellphone, that it would explain what caused this.

        Killer uses It was all God’s plan’ to put God on his side, and to shift the blame or responsibility to a hgher than earthly law, entity. Anything to take the blame off himself.

        (remember fogen started to say ‘went for his cellphone instinctually and cut off ‘instinct–ually’ half way through the word. Cellphone or gun…. gun or cellphone… which one did he practice with 4 or 5 hundren rounds in a range visit, with his buddy by his side to testify to this?)

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, yes!!

        If fogen didn’t learn his Sunday school lessons, either RC or Baptist (or as he had for his wedding, ‘Notarian’ denomination), he would have learned it from best buddy Taffee, ‘you reap what you sow’ is the essence of ‘plant corn you get corn’.

        (of course, the Taffee corn thing was just that, corn, as in cornball, spoken with racist under and overtones)

      • racerrodig says:

        Because he’s really that stupid. I said that when we get within spitting distance of the trial, his world would collapse on him. The audio expert’s report is just the beginning. Remember back in Jan / Feb when I posted what I heard and had a friend help me with on 2 of the 911 calls…..a faint female voice. I sent this to one of my guys back then and I’m hoping what I hear is real and had something to do with SheLie bolting from her deposition. In fact I’d bet on it.

      • parrot says:

        Xena, that interpretation never occurred to me.

        I thought that what Hannity was saying was essentially, ‘Do you think that had you not had the gun you would have been killed and wouldn’t be here to tell about it.’
        Your interpretation, though, is more in keeping with Hannity’s line of questioning at that point in the interview.

      • disappointed says:

        I wonder how often z uses God as his excuse? Lost job, God’s plan. Hit ex- God’s plan, sat like a potted plant-God’s plan.

        Don’t know about the rest of you but my God is not fond of getting blamed for bad behavior. It would have gone over better if he said I have no home training. That I can believe! I will never believe my God wanted Trayvon shot in the heart.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Absolutely, he was gonna bag himself one that very night.

      No more of those ass-holes gettin’ away, no siree. It was time to be a hero and for the whole town to bow down in gratitude.

      Actually, Fogen failed to see the bad moon risen’

      • ay2z says:

        Papa saw it ages ago…. the bad moon for fogen….

      • ay2z says:

        He couldn’t see any moon that dark rainy night, could be a good night for his plans…… extra dark, fewer potential witnesses enjoying the evening on their patios or walking dogs or going for their mail.

      • Rachael says:

        Pretty much sums it up.

      • racerrodig says:

        I actually think he’s not smart enough to see any signs of poor thinking. All of us have said or thought “….hmmmm, this is a bad idea…” or “….uh oh, no good will come of this” ya know, following people while on drugs, possibly drinking with a loaded gun…..and pissed at the world because he’s broke, and a loser.

    • Malisha says:

      Hannity asks, “Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayvon?”

      Fogen does not say, “I actually did not get out of the car to follow Trayvon; I just wanted to get an address for the dispatcher.”

      He says, instead, “[smirk] [sincere look] Nossir.”


      • racerrodig says:

        Whether either if them knew it at the time, he was set up by Hannity and fell face 2st into it.

        “…to follow Trayvon…” that is text book police work believe it or not. To support his previous “I was not following…” crap, he should have said. “I wasn’t following, I was looking for a stupid address, that’s all I was doing”

        Noooo, he doesn’t regret following as opposed to walking in the same direction…

  12. ay2z says:

    Bernie DLR in court statement: “… there could have been two persons” on the recording. (paraphrased)

    The conclusion of the audiologists, indicates that the first two cries/calls are likely Trayvon, the later two, possibly fogen.

    The rest are not conclusive, however, leave the jury to decide who else was screaming in a way that was consistent with the first two Trayvon cries, if not Trayvon himself? A parrot loose in the neighborhood perhaps? A visitor from Mars dropped in at the very moment and immitated the screams? Both more likely than fogen.

    I always thought the ‘help me’ were more like demands to come help restrain the guy, if they were fogen. He wasn’t crying out in fear of his life, and he himself provided information that supports this. He called to some door opening neighbor to ‘help me’ and discussed how he didn’t need 911 called, he already did that’. (all the while, his breathing blocked by Trayvon, so he claims). And fogen’s story about having Trayvon face down, hands spread out, telling him, as he claimed, ‘don’t move… don’t move’.

    There are little truthies in the big lie.

    The jury can decide and conclude whose screams sound like the person most likely making the first two cries. No question it could only be the same person in the same intense psychological situation.

    Fogen calling a neighbor for help, well….. what did that neighbor know…. besides what he was telling….

    • Xena says:

      The reports came in just in time for the following;

      • ay2z says:

        What can I say…. but….

      • Bill Taylor says:

        what happened to his black eyes? the tree house claims he had 2 black eyes, yet NO picture or video shows them??????

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, Girl you are good at this and, it’s very appreciated just like Trent and PaPa as well as marinade Dave. all of you guys are a blessing in all you do, for Trayvon and his family. I wish I could do this kind of stuff but, since I can’t, I’m still supporting by little brother and he family with my prayers and, trying to get others to do the same.

        May I have your permission, to post this on my face book page? I don’t mind saying, that I’m passionate about this case and, I’m trying to get others to see that they need to get involved as well. TIA Lady

        • Xena says:


          May I have your permission, to post this on my face book page?

          I’d be honored. Also, if anyone has Twitter, I appreciate them tweeting the link. Almost time for trial. Hoodies Up!

      • ladystclaire says:

        Sorry for the typo it should be my little brother.

      • Two sides to a story says:


      • PiranhaMom says:


        Terrific analysis, Xena! Thank you!

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, I hope Twitter followers can share, added it to Youtube feed, fwiw.

        So well put together, Xena…. love that you got that new toy and have the talents and dedication to accomplish this work. Fine job.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “I’m begging you”

        “(…), Dear God, these assholes, they always get away. But not on me” [CALL1]. “(…), approximately one second after the start of CALL3, Mr. Zimmerman makes a seemingly religious proclamation. “These shall be.” His speech is characterized by the low pitch and exaggerated pitch contour reminiscent of an evangelical preacher or carnival barker. The statement is challenging for untrained listener or detects as it occurs simultaneously with Trayvon Martin’s loud, high-pitched, distressed, and tremulous “I’m begging you”. And the 911 Dispatcher’s “Nine-one-one”. Many of Mr. Zimmerman’s “side-bar” utterances are subject to such multiple-talker masking effects and to low signal levels. The two males are engaged in a loud, purposeful, mostly “turn-taking” linguistic dialog. (…).” [CALL3].

        And there are more “side-bar utterances” to come (i.e. the more egregious ones that might stir up public outrage against GZ – most likely during or shortly before the trial). This report is just tentative. The young man could not have been begging for his life and SIMULTANEOUSLY beating GZ to death.

        Now we know why O’Mara has been acting weird.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Bill Taylor, these racist people have told so many lies, until they are just like their savior Fogen, they think the rest of the common sense public is just a dumbed down and ignorant as they are. they also know that every word that has come out of his stinking mouth is a BOLD FACED LIE!

        He murdered an African American child who was barely 17 and, Trayvon’s skin color is the reason they support this child murdering POS. it’s really pathetic that they want to see him get away with this especially since there have been so many children in this country, who have met their end by gun violence alone. it’s not right for a parent to have to bury a child because of something like this. it’s hard enough on them to bury a child because of diseases let alone murder.

        For the defense to take advice from lay people who happen to be racist, tells me that they are racist as well and, it also very shameful and an embarrassment to our Justice System as a country that abides by The Rule Of Law. these two so called attorneys have made this entire case, as serious as it is out to be nothing but a JOKE. a child is dead at the hands of their lying client and what do they do? they make a JOKE out of this child’s murder/death by taking orders and advice from a group of racist IDIOTS JUST LIKE THE TWO OF THEM.

      • Rachael says:

        “The young man could not have been begging for his life and SIMULTANEOUSLY beating GZ to death.

        Now we know why O’Mara has been acting weird.”

        • Xena says:


          Now we know why O’Mara has been acting weird.”

          Weird and embarrassed. O’Mara and West spent time with Zidiot conspiracy theories when they should have been going through the evidence and consulting with experts . Like West and his hard-on for attorney Crump when the State interviewed DeeDee, and that is the most likely interview to be entered at trial.

    • Trained Observer says:

      What dialogue …

      “”D’ya think I’m crazy here?” — Fogen, the fool

      No Fogen, I think you’re in murder mode and talking to someone other than Trayvon.

      “These assholes, they always get away … but no on me.” — Fogen , the fool

      No, Fogen, not on you, by georgie, because you’re such a hotshot all hopped up on drugs.

      Professional hitmen likely keep their mouths shut when they’re doing a job, but not blubbering blabbermouth Fogen.

      • racerrodig says:

        And he knew the call was recorded. It’s as stupid as the “Dave’s not here” routine by Cheech & Chong.

        Could one guy be any more stupid.

    • Malisha says:

      I think Fogen’s “Help me” cries were designed to let witnesses think he HAD TO SHOOT because here’s how I believe it went down:

      Fogen approached Trayvon in an aggressive stance and possibly with the hand already on the gun, whether visible to Trayvon or not. Fogen made his demands and oops, trayvon did not submit. Then when Trayvon began to scream loudly and desperately, Fogen realized this wasn’t going as he intended, and he saw his fantasy “capture scene” falling apart in front of his eyes. At that point I think he began to intermittently threaten Trayvon and yell “help” so he could support the false narrative that HE had been the one put in harm’s way, to justify a shooting. I believe the whole exercise was done to prove to RTL etc. that they needed him doing armed patrols around the neighborhood, and that night he was going to bring in a “suspect” to prove that he really was needed and his GUN was needed. “These shall be” seems to me to be a wacko trying to make sure HIS FANTASY can be acted out. Like a rapist saying to his victim, “You’re gonna DO THIS and you’re gonna LIKE IT!” The victim has to play a role in the abuser’s fantasy.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        It couldn’t be Jeremy, could it? Also, where’s “Get off!” that we all heard at the very beginning, before the operator says anything?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          We have to remember that these are reports. Reports by experts who will, of necessity, concentrate their efforts on the difficult parts of the tape, while practically ignoring the other parts not in question.

          I note that… If one takes the experts impressions and adds them to the playing of the full tape, then a more clear picture emerges. Who screams in terror is self explanatory, if one hears the other party talking and not sounding like he’s in terror. Obviously gz can’t change his voice from 28 years old to 17 years old. Nor can he go from calm to terrorized screaming, back to calm again.

          So, once one of these parties is terrorized and starts screaming, and is identified as the screamer. then the clear parts of the tape that were not analyzed show that the other party was not terrorized. Then the screams belong to the first party identified as screaming.

          Of course, gz cannot have been under any kind of attack by Trayvon, because Trayvon exhibits absolutely no evidence of having laid so much as a finger on gz. So, any and all wounds gz displays, had to have come from some cause, other than any claimed attack by Trayvon.

          And, of course, there is plenty of mystery time elapse, where anything else could have happened. For example, MMA John could have come outside after gz knocks on his door to signal he’s ready, and gives gz a couple of bloody whacks on the head, then sends him back to the hunt. Who knows? We do know that there was dried blood on gz, and we know that blood doesn’t dry in 10 minutes. So, we know that gz was bleeding for some time before he even began following Trayvon. gz has said nothing to explain these wounds, except to try and blame them on Trayvon. A mild mannered child who exhibits no violent nature at all. It’s as if gz is trying to tell us a rabbit became a lion.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie –

            That’s it!

            Dried blood —
            Mystery solved:

            “My Budgie bit me!

            “Always gets in the car and goes shopping with my precious wife and me on Sunday nights. Beaked me! Bad, ba-a-a-a-d bird!

            “Hmmm … I’ll blame it on the black dude …

            “D’ja think I’m crazy?”

  13. ay2z says:


    Pitch. Perceived pitch is the psychophysical correlate of fundamental frequency usage. In this case it refers to the level of those tones produced by the speaker. It was one of the weaker contrasts in this evaluation.

    (snark warning below…. no mention of hot dogs (yet) in the motion)

    Compare for example the jail house chat with wiffie… extract ‘mmmmm….. hot dog…. had hot dog…. mmmm…. for lunch today.’ to ‘Help me…. help me…. help me… help me….’ exemplar.

    ‘Help me… hot dog…. help me…. hot dog for lunch…. help me…. hot dog for lunch…… help me…. help me…. hot dog…. hot dog…. ”

    “Help me” = same perceived pitch as “hot dog”. No wonder this was a useless perameter! You’d think pitch would be extreme for someone with life threatened…. but no…. just the same excitement as talking about jailhouse mystery meat hot dogs for lunch…. mmmm!

  14. ay2z says:

    Now we can see more of why MOM wanted exclusion of all the voice analysis rejected. The state’s investigation includes Trayvon’s voice samples that include Trayvon’s laugh. Bringing Trayvon’s voice, his laugh, to life before the jury…..

      • ay2z says:

        “4. Nasality. Detection of the amount of nasality in the crles proved to be helpful.”

        Now just what help could they be talking about? Could be useful to distinguish natural speech of two individuals as distinct, and maybe even demonstrate that the ‘amount’ was not enough to indicate someone had breathing restricted by hands or blood backing up in anti-Newtoinian fashion.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Bingo times two!

      • ay2z says:

        Bingo!! Or should we say …. dong….. dong…. dong….

      • ay2z says:

        gbrbsb, excellent point….

      • ladystclaire says:

        I just listened to this without nothing but my ears, in other words I used no earphones and, I could definitely hear another voice mocking Trayvon’s cries for help. this case is so damn sad and, for George Zimmerman to do what he did to that child, he should have been charged with M1 with the death penalty on the table. just like the state of Arizona is seeking the dp for Jodi Arias, the state of Florida should be seeking the same for this heartless B*****D.

        One does not need any special equipment to tell whose voice is calling out for help in anguish nor is it needed to be able to hear Fogen mocking his murder victim. this POS does not deserve to live!

  15. ay2z says:

    Thanks SouthernGirl, 2 DVD’s received from Trayvon’s phone!!

  16. ay2z says:

    Here come the limines…..

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 FREE

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 MOTN

    05/13/2013 SUDI

    05/10/2013 MOTN

    05/10/2013 MOTN

    05/10/2013 NOHR
    NOTICE OF HEARING – DATE: 05/28/2013 – TIME: 0900AM – CTRM: 5D

    • Thanks for providing us with the State’s motions in limine.

    • ay2z says:

      (Didn’t Harry Nilssen write a song about this? What was that title…. The Courtroom Song?…. ‘Limine in the Courtroom’? Or will racerrodig write one before trial is done…. 😉

      • racerrodig says:

        Oh you can be sure as the trial goes on, I’ll make the time for some music…..for our ears…….the Zidiot Nation…….ehhh, not so much.

        So, if you have any songs that you think have the basis as a starting point, you know where to find me !!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        …to the tune of “Life in the Fast Lane”…

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I can’t open the link. I think we are taking down the server. Here is another link to the report.

      Click to access Reich-Report—-Zimmerman-Case.pdf

      It is going to be a long evening. I can understand why MOM doesn’t want the jury to hear this.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ A’dam

        The first two paragraphs of page two of Dr. Reich’s report strongly suggest that someone was with GZ during the NEN call. I believe this is just one of the reasons BDLR is closing in on Shellie Zimmerman. (And whatever Shellie has to say about her own and GZ’s whereabouts that fateful night is not covered by spousal privilege – as the Florida Supreme Court ruled in BOLIN v. STATE (No. SC08–2148.). Indeed, it is going to be a loooong evening.

      • cielo62 says:

        amsterdam (TOTALLY OT, but your avatar is stunning! What handsome fur!)


      • racerrodig says:

        Does that toast smell a little more burnt now ??

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ searching
        Those paragraphs made me sit up straight. I still don’t think there was someone in his truck though, simply because Trayvon only reported one man in the car talking on the phone, and one man following him on foot. And none of the eyewitnesses reported more than 2 people at the scene.

        We were speculating a long time ago that there may have been another person in a second car with whom GZ was communicating. The owner of the blog at bcclist thought they may even have used a walkie talkie. GZ does appear to love police paraphernalia.

        The clubhouse videos show 2 cars right behind each other, driving down TTL around 7 pm. Two cars 30 sec behind each other around 7:05 pm. And two cars on RVC, just before one drives down TTL to make its first stop in front of the mail shade, starts driving east on TTL just as GZ’s call to the police began, makes a uturn, drives back towards the mail shade and stops at the corner facing the mail shade about 10 seconds before GZ reports Trayvon is coming towards him.

        In one of GZ’s other 911 calls where he reports suspicious persons running towards the back entrance, he asks to have the police meet him at the back entrance. Not this time. I think it is possible someone was already watching the back entrance.

        If another person was involved, I think they were in seperate cars, they split up and were communicating through texts, another phone or a radio system.

        I don’t think Shellie was with him, just doesn’t seem to fit the roles they assigned themselves in the relationship. But I am convinced she was there when he left the house, she knows who he was with and why he left the house.

        GZ made a phonecall seconds after he got up, and it was not to his wife. If there was another person involved, I bet that is who he was talking to.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ cielo
        Isn’t she gorgeous? She hated to be groomed though. I picked her up in a shelter and had her for 14 years. She died a 1.5 years ago. I still miss her.

        • cielo62 says:

          amsterdam~  😦    I understand. She was certainly gorgeous, and lucky to have been rescued by you. Each one is one of a kind. As Da Vinco said, The smallest feline is a masterpiece. Thank you for sharing her through your avatar.

      • looolooo says:

        @amsterdame1234….Yes she was a gorgeous kitty. I’ve 4 of my own, 3 were strays, and one was abandoned at a board-n-care, then came home with my Gertrude 18, Mertyle 17, Barnaby 15 and Abner 6, and they’re all so precious. Thanks for giving a kitty a loving home.

        • amsterdam1234 says:

          Love their names. Good for you. I have three now. I fostered a mother cat with 3 kittens for the shelter. I wanted to keep 2 kittens, but I couldn’t stand the idea of sending one back to the shelter. So I took 2 back when they were old enough. After 2 days I heard they were so shy and scared, I had to go back and pick them up.
          I call them the three musketeers. They do everything together, they loved to follow me where ever I go. My mom adopted mother cat.

    • parrot says:

      Thanks, SouthernGirl2.

      Interesting paragraph:

      “These nonconforming segments indicate that Mr. Zimmerman frequently shifts or switches voice modes or speaking styles. His first utterance on CALL1 is a whispered, “D’ya think I’m crazy here?” At 12 seconds from the beginning of CALL1, he says “or … um … the best … address I can give you is one-eleven retreat view Circle.” During the four-second utterance, he shifts from whispered voice to customary voice to detective impression back to customary voice. At 97 seconds, the voiced but tremulous “These assholes, they always get away,” is preceded by a whispered “Dear God” and followed by a whispered “but not on me.”

      So, using the word order of the utterance what Z. said was:

      “Dear God. These assholes, they always get away… but not on me.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree. I found his accent and voice and mood switches in the NEN call unsettling from the beginning of this case. There is definitely something odd about it.

      • racerrodig says:

        ““Dear God. These assholes, they always get away… but not on me.””

        I’ve been saying his NEN call provides motive. Thank God one of the experts reports has been made public.

        • cielo62 says:

          Racer~ So, he’s talking to God, huh? Hence it’s now GOD’S plan?

          • racerrodig says:

            God’s plan is unfolding right before our very eye’s……clear as a bell. Now I don’t know what God Fogen believes in, but certainly not the one who’s Commandments include……

            6) Thou shalt not kill

            9) Thou shalt not bear false witness……..

            But then again, that’s just me.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Harrump!!! You wouldn’t, by any chance, be suggesting that foggenhats is responsible for any of this, would you? You are, of course, aware that, the defense has a mountain of overwhelming exculpatory evidence (including a (formerly) undisputed broken nose), that ensures a big win when the immunity hearing we waived, is held!

            Do not take kindness for weakness, we strategically waived the immunity hearing, because we don’t believe that the jury should be cheated out of their chance to vote an acquittal. Even now as we speak our platoons of experts are churning out reams of exculpatory evidence that they will be able to submit via satellite link from Turkestan, once permission is given. Of course, this is contingent on the filthy, crooked prosecutors agreeing not to cross examine them. Cross examination by a “risky” prosecutor, is counterproductive and therefore not needed.

            We’ve also motioned the court disallow any and all incriminating material, since that would needlessly prejudice the jury, making a fair trial impossible. We’ve also moved to have the court throw the State of Florida off the case, because they lack standing in the eyes of the good book. And we should be awarded millions of dollars and all expense lifetime passes to Tahiti! To quote one of the participants in this case: “It’s going to be a wonderful life once we get passed these minor problems”.

            So don’t count the defense out yet! We’re winning!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you for making it so crystal clear. Now I have to clean the coffee from my screen so that will be crystal clear.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Talk about band on the run… O’Mara has to figure a way to keep his experts beyond the reach of the courts jurisdiction! Thus, having his experts testify via self destruct cd is a viable option he has to consider. Or via live teleconference from any country on earth that does not have and extradition treaty with the U.S.!

          • racerrodig says:

            I think I found one of his expert witness reports….Not 100% sure, but you may be able to determine if it is.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That’s it, only thing missing is O’Mara’s “oops”, as he tries to explain to the judge he had no idea the cd would do that. :lol;

          • racerrodig says:

            I can see it now….

            O’ Mara “…..well your honor, I think it’s, well……undisputed that my client, by this experts testimony….”


            O’ Mara “…..ooooopppps”

            Judge Nelson “…what was that !! ?? !!”

            O’ Mara “…oh nothing your honor, my expert is just feeling a little, um, low”

            Judge Nelson “What’s burning over there ??”

            O’ Mara “….you see your honor, it’s well……see, my expert witness just died, can we leave it at that……so, cross examination would be, well….impossible at this point”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hahaha… 😆

      • Oh my sweet Jesus!

  17. I apologize. I forgot the discovery link. Here it is.

    Click to access 051013_state_16_discovery.pdf

  18. STATE’S 16TH SUPPLEMENTAL DISCOVERY in Zimmerman case.

    Attempted Speaker Identification; Florida vs. Zimmerman

    Click to access 051013_speaker_identification.pdf

  19. State audio experts ID Trayvon’s voice in screams,0,2122283.story

    Two sets of state audio experts came to different conclusions after listening to the screams of someone crying for help just before Trayvon Martin was shot: One said it was Trayvon. The other said some of the screams likely came from Trayvon while others from Zimmerman.

    That evidence was made public today.

    One team of analysts, Harry Hollien and James Harnsberger, evaluated the now-well-known call from a neighbor, who called 911 when she heard two people arguing.

    In the background, someone can be heard crying for help then comes a gunshot, and the cries stop.

    Hollien and Harnsberger broke down the recording scream by scream. They concluded that the recording quality and the voice samples they were provided were not good enough to match either Trayvon or Zimmerman.

    But they wrote there were near matches for several individual cries. The first eight came close to matching Trayvon’s voice, they wrote, while the 14th, 15th and 16th came close to matching Zimmerman’s.

    In a separate evaluation, forensic analyst Alan Reich wrote that he believed all the cries came from “the younger of the two male speakers, Trayvon Martin.”

    Last week, defense attorneys filed paperwork, asking Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson to hold a hearing to determine the scientific validity of the work done by state voice experts.

    That may take place May 28, the next-scheduled hearing in the case.

    Zimmerman’s second-degree trial is scheduled to start in Sanford June 10.

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ No surprise on that extra gz set; people HERE had reported gz saying some whimpy ass “help me”  as if to mock Trayvon. OF COURSE there were 2 voices! And OF COURSE the defense is going to try to undermine the results. The gz app has the slant that the opinions vary SO MUCH that the analysis are meaningless. SPIN SPIN SPIN. Incidentally the stories don’t point out that BOTH experts say the FINAL scream was Trayvon; it ended with the gun shot. Wouldn’t that be all you’d need to know?

      • FactsFirst says:

        I’ve always believed GZ mimicked/mocked or even yelled for help to one of the neighbors as he/fogen stated in his re-enactment… ALL THE TERRIFIED SCREAMS belong to TRAYVON!!! But the help that GZ yelled out was not a scream.. That last “HELP” was either fogen was teasing/terrifying Trayvon or he was asking the neighbor “HELP ME RESTRAIN THIS GUY”…BEFORE THE GUNSHOT.. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…

      • racerrodig says:

        Thank God this is finally in the evidence. I’ve been using components from my PA system to enhance different frequencies and clearly heard all of this. Some is easy, you just have to replay it over and over, some needs a little help.

        Months ago I stated he said “…they always get away, but not on me” and the Zidiot attacks (and unitron) were unreal. So there it is, all official and all.

        I’ll step out and say he had someone else there that is very, very faintly picked up on one of the 911 calls, and it sounds like a female voice. I had a friend of mine with a lot of hi-tech sound equipment try to identify it but it won’t reproduce to another media, so we’re in limbo with what we have. I’m hoping that one of the experts can enhance it, because what we hear sends this past “GO” and there is no “Get out of Jail Ever” card available…… and if this was known back in April of last year, this would be M1.

    • ladystclaire says:

      How damn charming that he gets a party and, AA taxpayers in that city, I mean the ones who should have been drowned at birth, are helping pay for this SOB’S farewell party. smdh

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Ugh. I can understand friends throwing him a private party, but public funds? What a joke.

      • Malisha says:

        To me, it’s not a joke at all. It is public corruption to use public funds for a party for someone who violated the public trust and who is obviously dangerous to the public. But remember, the cops who delivered the victim right into the hands of the mass murderer in the Gacy case were first suspended, then reinstated, then honored, and they finished their careers as HEROES with all kinds of medals. They took a screaming child upstairs to a murderer/pedophile’s apartment while two female citizens objected and tried to protect the boy and as they did so, they threatened those citizens with ARREST for “interfering.” IOW they participated (before the fact, not even AFTER the fact) in a gruesome murder and they threatened innocent bystanders who tried to prevent the crime.

        The police and “public servants” are pretty much all out of control. We’re doomed as a society because of this.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Agreed, Malisha. Just an expression. :/

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I also agree. We are doomed with police shenanigans of this type. You may have read about the recent police killing in Cali in which they ran around threatening people who had filmed the incident and confiscating their cell phones. What are we now, a third-world banana republic?

  20. groans says:

    Among the several documents filed by the State on 5/10/13 is the “State’s Response to Defendant’s Motion for Evidentiary Hearing.”

    It responds to the defense motion for a “Frye” hearing to preclude expert “voice identification” testimony at trial. (You know … the evidentiary hearing the defense requested but now asks that its experts be allowed to testify remotely – rather than having them actually show up in person, in court, to testify in support of the defense’s own motion. 😯 )

    It’s well worth reading. (It’s short and sweet; legal and factual.)

    The State objects to holding a Frye evidentiary hearing, arguing that it’s clearly inappropriate. There’s also, I think, a hint as to whether the State would consent to allowing defense experts to testify remotely. Here’s one enlightening excerpt:

    … Defendant requests a hearing “regarding the area of inquiry known as voice identification.” The State notes that Defendant has listed at least one such individual himself; accordingly, if any hearing is required, the State would request such hearing to likewise encompass any such defense witness(es). The State would further point out that, as it relates to at least one such State witness, the defense has declined to conduct a deposition of the witness.

    Click to access 051013_response_to_evidenciary_hearing.pdf

  21. pat deadder says:

    Pirhanamom Yes I watched his reenactment of the crime and that is why I’m so sure she was in the car and how do we know fogen didn’t call her and tell her to move the car or shruck or whatever the dope addict called it.Well at least he’s told the truth 3 times now 1 I shot him 2 I chased him 3 Yes I ‘m waiving my right to an immunity hearing.Something very insignifigant still brothers me not to do with his the trial but the tattoo of his cousins name on his chest.Christine How creepy.There is something wrong with him.And when Singleton was trying to keep the door open you could see he so wanted to get up and do it like he was the only one who was capable of doing it properly…He is such a control freak.I just hope his verbal diarrhea puts him away.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Cristina is also Fogen’s grandmother’s name and apparently he was close to her. Trayvon had a tatoo with his mother’s name on his arm..

      • Rachael says:

        Mom or grandma I can understand, cousin – no. But mom and grandma – in fact, with mother’s day having just passed, I read somewhere that mom or mom-type tattoos are the most common.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I find it a little weird – but different strokes for different folks. I wouldn’t put either of my parents’ names on my body! :;D

      • looneydoone says:

        Cross tatt’s with a person’s name placed above the heart signify the “loss” of someone. They are memorials.
        Grandma Cristina hadn’t passed on when cheorge had that inked …

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Re: “Christine” tattooed on his chest: Maybe he was sent to Florida at age 18 to get him away from Christine.

      • Xena says:

        @Cercando Luce.

        Re: “Christine” tattooed on his chest: Maybe he was sent to Florida at age 18 to get him away from Christine.

        Isn’t Christine also the name of a demon possessed car? LOL!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        cercando luce says

        “Re: “Christine” tattooed on his chest: Maybe he was sent to Florida at age 18 to get him away from Christine.”

        if my memory is serving me well, the grandmother’s name was ‘christina’ and the cousin’s name is ‘christine’. this makes a world of difference on said tattoo.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen as The Wanderer

        Oh well, I’m the type of guy who’ll never settle down
        Where pretty girls are, well, you know that I’m around
        I kiss ’em and I love ’em ’cause to me they’re all the same
        I hug ’em and I squeeze ’em, they don’t even know my name

        They call me the wanderer
        Yeah, the wanderer
        I roam around, around, around

        Oh well, there’s Gladazz on my left and there’s the Cousin on my right
        And SheLie is the girl that I’ll be with tonight
        And when she asks me, which one I love the best?
        I tear open my shirt I got Christina on my chest

        ‘Cause I’m the wanderer
        Yeah, the wanderer
        I roam around, around, around

        Oh well, I roam from town to town
        I go through life without a care
        And I’m as happy as a clown
        with my two fists of iron and I’m GOING NOWHERE

        I’m the type of guy that likes to roam around
        I’m never in one place, I roam from town to town
        And when I find myself fallin’ for some girl
        I hop right into that shruck of mine and ride around the world

        Yeah, ’cause I’m a wanderer
        Yeah, a wanderer
        I roam around, around, around …


  22. Jun says:

    Is it considered habit evidence, that, Fogen keeps blaming the victim for all his run ins utilizing violence?

    1) Attacks police officers and blames the cops
    2) Attacks his ex and then blames the cops
    3) Terrorizes an 8 year old boy and then blames the boy
    4) Molests and attempts to rape his cousin and then blames the cousin

    • Dennis says:

      5) Charged with 2nd degree murder then blames media

      • racerrodig says:

        Yep…..those pesky reporters, how do they sleep at night??

      • Jun says:

        LMAO that is the most bloodclot stupid claim they have made

        Last time I checked, the people and the state of Florida is indicting Fogen for M2 and the media has let them whore like crazy with their bullshit so I do not see how the media had any part in their stupid charge

        He’s lucky I aint the governor because I would allow motions like

        1) Motion for Omara to STFU
        2) Motion for Robbie The Racist Diva to STFU
        3) Motion to suplex Fogen

    • Jun says:

      typo on (2), I meant, blames the ex

    • Rachael says:

      There is also a pattern to his following people.

  23. Two sides to a story says:

    Primeau did another bit on the audio tapes – no conclusion of course – a teaser.

  24. Malisha says:

    OK, finally done.
    To the tune of “Waltzing Matilda”:

    Once a typy talky joined into a jolly blog
    spewed out her comments, one, two, three
    and a few of the others got into a chatty thing
    Suited Malisha, quite to a “T” —

    Waiting for Malisha,
    Waiting for Malisha,
    It won’t be long ’cause she types rapidly,
    Oh she’s opinionated enough for any argument,
    Wait for Malisha, you’ll get a guarantee.

  25. Rachael says:

    My take on these motions is that the defense has demonized the victim enough. The trial is about GZ and 2nd degree murder charges. PERIOD.

    Trayvon is NOT the one here on trial.

    • ladystclaire says:

      You are right Rachael and, they should have been stopped before now because, it was/is so unfair to Trayvon and his family how some have smeared this kid’s name as well as slander him and his family. for the defense and the family of the defendant to take part in this smear and demonizing of a deceased child who was murdered by their client, just goes to show how morally bankrupt they really are. the same can also be said about Fogen because, he has been on these blog sites doing his part of slandering and smearing his victim as well.

      Quite a few of these people stand a chance of having charges brought against them for doxing and harassing some people who have nothing to do with this case. I hope Joohyah and, LetJusticePrevail aka Robert Zimmerman Sr are among those who may be facing criminal charges themselves.

      • Dennis says:

        Good-hearted defense lawyers like Frederick are there to make sure that the court and prosecution play fair.

        Monsters like O’Mara demonize the victim, try to gain public fame from a case, and ultimately try to get a murderer acquitted.

        I don’t have any sympathy or remorse for anybody that has no soul like Fogen and O’Mara. The worst possible tragedy or accident could happen to either of them and I would not shed a single tear. If Hell exists, they are both headed there.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Dennis, I am so with you on your reply to my comment. Fogen is hell bound for sure and as for O’mara, he’s not to far behind right along with the racist family of the defendant as well as the racist who support the OBESE B*****D. he did not have to shoot that kid and, for him to expect to get away with it, speaks volumes about how he thinks he is entitled to get away with murdering a child and, not get his fat ass pinched.

        I can’t imagine his friends in VA serving time for something that he was also involved in and then keep quiet and not tell about his part in what ever the crime was. I’m inclined to believe, that his ignorant father paid them to take the fall and not tell on his worthless spawn.

        This guy is as sure as I’m sitting here typing this, he is for sure an embarrassment to his family. this is IMO why he was sent from the commonwealth of VA to Florida and, he was also estranged from the rest of his family up until he committed this murder. if he were my son, I would be ashamed and embarrassed to.

        I’m telling you, this POS has no soul to speak of and, you can see it in his eyes on one of llmpapa’s videos the one of him as a child. Fogen is as close to the devil as they come.

      • Rachael says:

        OMG, lady – get ready to be sick:

        “so, Corey waited for MOM to get all the info all these last few months just to say, you can’t use it. Corey tried to strip him of his funds, and for what??? she is a serpent, and George is Jesus Christ. I’m sorry, but if you know the story, everyone wanted to crucify Jesus. George has nothing but love, and Corey has nothin g but lust for power and money.”

        “George is Jesus Christ. I wholeheartedly believe that. Hopefully, the triple headed devil will reveal themselves to be 3 people: Sybrina Fulton, Natalie Jackson and Angela Corey wrapped up in one. they are enraged with hate and greed.”

        ” XX GOOD GRIEF sorry to interject but NO – GZ is not Jesus Christ, not EVEN CLOSE. Nor should such ridiculous comparisons be made like this. Please do not level such insufferable statements which will lend only a measure of comfort to those who would love to define GZ advocates through the lens of such attribution. Thanks, – XX “

      • groans says:

        @ Rachel, re Zidiot:

        Hopefully, the triple headed devil will reveal themselves to be 3 people: Sybrina Fulton, Natalie Jackson and Angela Corey wrapped up in one.

        All females. Very telling. WTF?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Trayvon is not the one on trial? That’s a not yet comprehended revelation to Fogen, Gladazz and the other whining family fools.

  26. Order Granting Petitioner’s Motion for Leave to Respond and Accept Reply from 5DCA in Zimmerman case.

    Click to access order_granting_filed_reply.pdf

  27. ladystclaire says:

    How can the defense list ShelLie as a witness on their submitted list and, then 20 minutes into her deposition with the state, the defense attorneys along with ShelLie’s attorney ask for a break in the proceedings and, when they come back into the room where the depo is taking place, announce to the prosecution that, she is not on the list as a witness and, that she would not answer any questions.

    Now, IMO the prosecution should really have them bought up on charges and ask for reimbursement for time wasted. Judge Nelson should also slap them with some sort of citation. this is by far the dirtiest and the sleaziest defense team, that I’ve ever seen!

    They have gotten away with doing so much and, some things they have done I think is illegal but, they got away with it just the same. how can at attorney start out looking like he could be honest, trustworthy and, above all a professional in his field and, then turn into someone to be despised because he doesn’t play by the rules. I hope O’mara’s reputation is ruined beyond repair because of all of the wrong he has done against an innocent child, that his client outright murdered. the trial out in Arizona was nothing like this one as far as the defense is concerned. the defense attorneys in that case, did try to smear the victim there as well but, it was nothing like the defense in the case in Florida. O’mara and West have turned something as serious as this into a JOKE and, they keep doing it without anything or anyone stopping them.

  28. amsterdam1234 says:

    @ observer,
    That is what I found. This is NRA country.

    • Trained Observer says:

      amsterdam1234 —Sad but true. Would like to see responsible gun owners form a new organization, one that isn’t run by manufacturers and nuts.

  29. ay2z says:

    “I got MY [emphasis on ‘my’] gun, aimed it, and shot him one time.”
    (fogen in truthes test video)

    “It wasn’t my gun, it was THE [emphasis on ‘the’] gun”
    (fogen on Hannity)

    Neither, was it…. it was Shellie’s gun.

    Maybe that’s why he changed the story to “THE’ gun” on Hannity because he knew it was NOT his gun. Sondra Osterman said ‘he carried his gun at all times’, and hubby Mark Osterman said (apparently I haven’t read the bood) that in training, he taught his best friend to consider the gun not your gun or his gun, but THE gun.

    Was Osterman trying to deflect the idea that Shellie’s gun was ‘the’ gun?

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      To be honest, I don’t think there is anything to this gun thing. The records for ccw permits are not open to the public. If GZ was carrying a gun without a permit, I am sure the prosecution would’ve slapped another felony charge on GZ. IANAL but I believe that you can’t claim syg if you kill someone while committing a felony. There is no way BdlR wouldn’t have checked it and if the permit was not good he would’ve jumped on it.

      • Xena says:


        If GZ was carrying a gun without a permit, I am sure the prosecution would’ve slapped another felony charge on GZ.

        Maybe, maybe not if the feds want him first. Osterman loaned GZ a gun that GZ took across state lines. If his ccl was invalid or never legally issued and he carried while also out of state, the feds might want jurisdiction.

      • Rachael says:

        But addressing what amsterdam said, how would that be kept out of this trial? I kind of have to agree with her. I mean that is pretty basic and I would think one of the first things they would have looked at.

        I mean I know there is stuff that we haven’t seen yet, but I would think if this were true, it would have been stated – but then maybe I just don’t understand what you are saying or why that would change things for this trial.

      • Trained Observer says:

        “Records for ccw permits are not open to the public.” — amsterdam1234

        Are you sure about that in Florida, land of Sunshine Laws?

      • Rachael says:

        From what I can see, she is correct.

      • towerflower says:

        Trained Observer, Concealed Licenses are not part of the public record in Florida.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, I posted from the released documents the evidence that he did have a valid concealed license. It’s back up on the beginning of this thread. But they have the photo copy of the concealed license in the first evidence dump and the 2nd evidence dump has a statement from Off. Smith that he had the license in his wallet. Without him being charged he was still valid to carry in the states that have agreements with Florida.

        After he was charged it was up to LE or the courts to notify the State to suspend his license, like they did with Shellie, until the outcome of the case. I could find no record that this ever took place although there were two petitions to the governor to take action on that, one before he was arrested which legally nothing could be done and one after he was arrested. With the bond restriction of not possessing a gun it made it all moot……didn’t matter if he was inside or outside of the home, no guns allowed so it made the licensed worthless. The bond restriction holds more weight since if the State did suspend his license it would not have stopped him from possessing a gun in his residence, the bond hearing prevents him from even having one in his residence.

        • Xena says:

          @towerflower. I understand what you’re saying, but here is the question. Had GZ’s CCL been valid, why would the feds need to investigate, even to whether GZ took and completed the class?

      • boyd says:

        yes, there may be nothing. However This Fogen guy loves to follow his own version of the rules so I would not be surprised he screwed something up regarding the CCW license, of switching guns etc. I’d check out everything on this guy.

        I want to know what medications he’s on now and compare it to what he was on before.

        I want his DR;s. testifying

        I want to know why he moved the car before police checked it out.

        The cousin must testify

        don’t ever assume anything about him He’s got the Ariel Castro gene. The ability to commit hideous crimes and never be suspected.

      • LeaNder says:

        Xena, I never understood the idea about the refund and not having completed the class. I never looked closely into the Fogen family’s bank account documents, admittedly. I only looked at the official account on gz legal including his statements about how much had been sponsored overall first. And it feels that’s were some ideas originated.

        At least theoretically the FBI investigation of the firm where GZ supposedly took his obligatory class, may well have to do with other factors too. What exactly were they taught concerning their legal rights and duties connected with the CCL? Should GZ have known about “Stand your Ground” based on that? If one of the people trained by them surfaces, it may well have a result for the firm too. Their permit to train people and their specific training may be under inspection too.

        I am assuming that you have to proof you took the class by some type of certificate to get the license. Could a former police officer and Homeland Security man like Mark Osterman do the training too, what are the exact laws?

        Only recently I checked if there is really such a public database to look for holders of concealed carry permits in Florida. I couldn’t find anything. There is a database for holders of the license to check. Quite convenient for people to check when their renewals are due. But it doesn’t seem to be a public record, it’s supposed to be “concealed” after all.

      • LeaNder says:

        And it feels that’s were some ideas originated.

        I shouldn’t have added in what part of the fund history I looked, it was a private note really, and not OT here.

        But I have the impression the genesis of the ideas about him not having a valid license is based on Fogen’s and Shellie’s transfer and bank account documents.

        And, with all due respect, there may be a bit of speculation involved in this context. Like what some transfers were really about. E.g. burglary loot shipped somewhere else. I wouldn’t want to read that into a simple record about recipients of a specific amount of money.

        Some of my refunds during the last year had to do with either a cancellation or a double transfer that happened due to an electronic bug. Only superficially entering the universe of possibilities or what could have happened: Fogen having already paid his fees in cash or via one of his cards and Shellie unaware of it transferring it again with her own fees. Did they take their classes together?

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, One of the things told to me when I took the training for the Instructor credentials was to make sure that I kept all information on the people that I train. One Instructor said he scanned the information to reduce paperwork space. They explained that LE always comes back to the Instructor of the class to see what they can find out or remember about the student, there is no time limit on when they will go back. This is a common practice when the shooter is a CCW holder, once again their investigation into it isn’t unusual and I was told this a couple of years before the TM shooting. If an Instructor gave a certificate to a student they felt was not ready it will cost the Instructor their credentials.

        On the statement of the Instructor he said he purges his records every 2 years and didn’t have fogen’s information anymore. Since he took the class in 2009 it sounds like the paper shredders were working overtime.

        Also that pdf I referenced people to look at is his CCW file. In it they also place inquiries about a holder. There have been 3, first was by the Sanford PD, then Florida’s Civil Rights Division, and the last one was from the FDLE. All of them were after the shooting of Trayvon, not one was a federal agency….unless it was after the FDLE request.

  30. ay2z says:

    “The prosecutors’ motions ask Nelson to:

    •Prohibit the defense from mentioning the punishment Zimmerman faces if convicted.

    •Prohibit the defense from “insinuating that any juror should disregard the law” by implying or stating the jury can pardon a defendant.

    •Prohibit the defense from arguing that the prosecution failed to call a witness because the testimony would have been unfavorable to the state.

    •Prohibit the defense from including testimony that Zimmerman had no previous felony convictions.

    •Prohibit hearsay statements by Zimmerman to witnesses.

    •Prohibit the defense from asking witnesses whether they think Zimmerman is guilty.

    •Force the defense to turn over all documents to the state as required by law.”

    )source today’s OS article)

    • ay2z says:

      Can’t the defense ask many of these things of potential jurors in voire dire? That would be an effective way to get a message through without doing it at trial.

      • ay2z says:

        raceerrodig, just the ones who can call on Hannity, Bargara Walters, FOX news, Joe Oliver (or a family friend who is an ex-tv reporter) etc.

        Now the use of the website is coming into full bloom for them, as they can publish the state’s list (as above) and have potential jurors read it, and read into it.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      You have to read the motions themselves. They are pretty good. I get the feeling the prosecution is ready, well organized and not about to accept any bullshit from the defense.

      • racerrodig says:

        How many other defendants have had a legal website like Fogen. I can’t remember one. Does anyone know of one or am I that far behind ?????

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I am pretty new in following criminal cases. I don’t think it was a good way to spend their money.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m still reading. From the comments at the Sentinel, I gather that Fogen supporters think the State is desperate. Looks to me more like a pre-trial and pre-jury selection shot across the bow to get the defense to stop trying the case in the media.

        I hope Prof L will address these in an article.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        From the comments at the Sentinel, I gather that Fogen supporters think the State is desperate

        That is how it is presented in the OS. That is not at all the impression I got from reading the State’s motions. Looks to me like State is nipping a lot of stuff in the bud. But I have no legal expertise at all. I am waiting for our experts to give their opinion.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I concur, Amsterdam. Bernie is clearly making sure that O’Mara and West keep the garbage they collected from the CTH well out of the court room. As I read all the State Motions, I visualize these Sky Hawks (Corey, BDLR, Guy, & Co.) taking up strategic positions on several strategic tree tops, sealing off all the escape routes and waiting patiently for the rodent to venture out of its hole.

      • Rachael says:

        I love that visual!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree with you guys, if you read my entire comment . . . :]

        Here’s an interesting speculation from a Fogen supporter on FB. He seems to think that all the State’s motions are aimed toward Serino (and perhaps other SPD investigators):

        I think all of the motions are trying to curtail what Serino can testify to…

        1) Motion regarding opinion to appropriate penalty: Serino/other officers are the only one who would be qualified to speak on something like that.

        2) Calling of witnesses: The State doesn’t plan to call Serino because while he is a witness for the State, he would be considered a “hostile witness” for some of his testimony. The State doesn’t want the defense saying “they’re not even going to call the lead investigator of the case because it wouldn’t help their case!”

        3) Prior criminal history: Again, Serino/Singleton are the only ones that can speak factually (without bias) about a possible criminal history.

        4) Hearsay statements of defendant: Who has Mr. Zimmerman made any statements to that are exculpatory that could be presented in terms of EVIDENCE, TESTIMONY and/or QUESTIONING? Well.. that’d be Serino and Singleton.

        5) Mr. Martin’s past: The State said questioning of Mr. Martin’s past was done in a deposition… so who would that be? Serino and Singleton.

        6) Improper Opinion: Serino didn’t think there was enough evidence for an arrest (most people initially concluded that this one was about Serino, so we’ll just leave it at that).

        7) Mr. Martin’s toxicology: Who would know about it? Oh, right.. the previous investigators.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        LOL, I can see them crawling.
        The Sky Hawks(I like that one) have been biting their tongues. I think they’ve been very disciplined in not exposing their strategy and now they are ready and rearing to go.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        I finally have the feeling we are getting a glimpse of the State’s strategy.

        It looks like they are baiting the defense to put Serino on the stand. It also looks as if they are cutting off as many avenues as possible for any self-defense claim not made by GZ himself. I don’t think this case should be compared with the Anthony case, but it looks like the prosecution did learn some lessons from watching Baez.

        If these motions are decided for the State, I don’t see how they can keep GZ from having to take the stand.

        • Xena says:

          I was wrong. In that video I did of BDLR at work, I said he was always one step ahead of Zimmerman’s defense attorneys. After reading the State’s current motions, I was so wrong — BDLR is about 10 steps ahead of Zimmerman’s defense team.

          • racerrodig says:

            When this gets part way into the trial, we will all see how inept
            O’ Mara really is, and West isn’t any better. This is like a man playing with boys.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. More like a divorce lawyer attacking the opposing party to prevent paying alimony and being awarded the marital home. O’Mara has yet to accept that GZ is on trial for murder 2.

          • racerrodig says:

            He’s in for a real awakening, that’s for sure.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer-..,. Not touching that one. Agree, though, BDLR is light years ahead on MOM et al.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            The defense is in for a collective body slam, is that better ?? A body slam they will not get off the mat from.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        @amsterdam – Yes, I agree. There is more to these motions than what the public can read on the surface, so there is definitely a strategy – and it appears that might be to force GZ to the stand, for starters. I’m guessing there’s more strategy to come, that this case will have many possible avenues.

      • Jun says:

        Sounds like the state is limiting the trial to what happened that night and no bullshit about unauthenticated and irrelevant material from the defense

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I feel good. I had faith in Bernie and the rest of the team, but it is good to see them in action.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, there HAS NEVER been any other murder suspect with a web site nor has there been a murder suspect who has EVER set up a beg site for a defense fund, when there have been no charges filed against them. this has been one of the most UNETHICAL and, one of the most dirtiest defense teams that I have ever seen.

        It is also a first in the fact that, this defendant murdered a child in cold blood and is being supported by some in this country. I talking about, how in the hell does one support someone who has taken the life of a child?

        This is just an all around sad state of affairs because of the way the victim and, his family are being mistreated by some in this country. I too sing America, is a poem written by Langston Hughes and, at a time such as this, when a child murderer is being supported all because he killed an AA child, I can’t help but wonder why.

        • racerrodig says:

          I was pretty sure this was a first. And this is “an all time show stopper” that’s for sure.

          Talk about preposterous.

    • Jun says:

      I think they will all get granted and in a way it is a form of karma and fair for the victim now

  31. FactsFirst says:

    Click to access zimmerman-fdle-businesses-video-request.pdf

    “On Monday, March 25, 2012, Special Agent John Batchelor went to the following businesses:
    *Sam’s Club (1101 RINEHART ROAD)
    *Gold Mine 704 (1129 RINEHART ROAD)
    *Cycle Gear (1157 RINEHART ROAD)
    *Enterprise (1177 RINEHART ROAD)
    *Hop Sing’s (1181 RINEHART ROAD)
    *TrustCO Bank (1185 RINEHART ROAD)
    *LAKES EDGE APARTMENTS (where I BELIEVE TRAYVON TOOK SHELTER FROM THE RAIN and spotted fogen following him!) 1000 Plantation Lakes Circle and RINEHARD ROAD)
    *Kohl’s (1731 RINEHARD ROAD)
    *M&I/BMO Harris Bank (1381 RINEHART ROAD)

    I believe there is video of Trayvon WALKING PASS all these business on his way home.. (Trayvon HAD TO have walked down RINEHART ROAD)I believe TRAYVON stopped at the GAZEEBO at LAKES EDGE which is located on the SAME SIDE of the STREET (RINEHART ROAD) as the 7-11 (like right next door). I know LLMPapa believe Trayvon stopped for shelter at Colonial Villiage, but I disagree because in the FDLE request for video they stated, “It was determined that Sam’s Club, TrustCO, LAKES EDGE APARTMENTS, Kohl’s and M&I/BMO Harris Bank WOULD HAVE RECORDED VIDEO SPECIFIC TO THE EVENING FEBRUARY 26, 2012″

    Again no disrespect, but I believe Trayvon stopped at the GAZEEBO at Lakes Edge (on RINEHART ROAD). I believe this is where Trayvon was when DeeDee said after he/Trayvon left the 7-11, he stopped at a lil shelter thing”.. Lakes Edge is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to 7-11 Trayvon HAD to walk pass it! As a matter of fact, It’s the first covered area Trayvon would have spotted walking home… just my thoughts

    • ay2z says:

      Could Trayvon have walked through to Colonial and stopped at the mail thing there?

      • FactsFirst says:

        @ay2z… could be.. I think if he/Trayvon stopped at Lakes Edge, he stopped there FIRST and then maybe Colonial Village.. I say that, because the way DeeDee described it (and I interpreted it) right after Trayvon left 7-11, he went to another complex SHORTLY after leaving 7-11.. Lakes Edge is less than a block away from the 7-11… almost right next door… Trayvon would have walked pass Lakes Edge’s Gazeebo (right offa Rinehart) LESS THAN a minute later, after leavin 7-11…

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The CV mail kiosk is too far west and out of line for Trayvon’s best route. If he entered CV for shelter from the rain, he’d be better off using breeze ways rather than walking so far south in CV to get to the mail kiosk when there were plenty of breeze ways along his route, that could be used. You have to look at google maps and use google earth to see the ground level arrangements.

    • Trained Observer says:

      One great part of this legal site is an opportunity to exchange theories and info to back it up. Am leaning toward the Colonial Village as a shelter, but not excluding any of the above.

      And isn’t there a chance paused to get out of the rain at each location on the path toward home?

      Ideally, specifics on this will come out at trial — courtesy of Trayvon’s phone GPS.

      Thanks for sharing your theory.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        If you look at the timeline, it seems likely that Trayvon made more than one stop. He left the 7 eleven around 6:30 pm. It is about a 14 minute walk back to the clubhouse. The bank video shows that it was raining at 6:38 pm. The clubhouse videos begin around 6:46:36. It doesn’t appear to be raining at that time. DeeDee said Trayvon ran into the complex when it started to rain hard. This is when the phone connection breaks, and she calls him back around 6:54 pm. Around that time you can see the rain is coming down hard in the Eastpool video.

        I don’t think Trayvon stopped at the mail area in CV. That mail area doesn’t give much cover and it is of the main road. If you wouldn’t know where it was located, you would have to go looking for it.

        It is more likely he took cover in a breezeway of one of the appartment buildings like this one as seen from the pathway on Oregon ave.

        Colonial Village Residential Building, 2/4/13

        I think Trayvon started walking again in the dry spell somewhere between 6:39 and 6:55 pm, and that he was hiding from the rain in the mail shade at the Retreat at about 6:55 pm.

      • FactsFirst says:

        I think Trayvon stopped at Lakes Edge (gazeebo), because on Trayvon’s way home, he would have to walk pass TrustCo, THEN Lakes Edge which is on the same side of the street as 7-11 and TrustCo Bank which, Trayvon would CLEARLY SEE Lakes Edge’s Gazeebo while walking down Reinhart Road toward Oregon… TrustCo and Lakes Edge is maybe 1-2 minutes from 7-11.. again, on the same side of the street…(TrustCo is in the same STRIP MALL as 7-11. TrustCo being the 1st business in the strip mall.. 7-11, the last) I wish I was as computer saavy as most of you all here, because I’d show y’all what I’m talking about… I hope somebody do a video walking from the 7-11 towards Oregon so everyone here could see what I’m trying to explain..

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think it is important to look at the FBI/FDLE interview of Frank Taaffe on April 3, 2012. From it we learn that Trayvon simply “conformed” to the habits of the other kids by using the cut-thru next to Taaffe’s house. Also, it was very common for the kids to be on their cellphones when walking through:

      xxxx(Taaffe) estimated he sees 25 people per week entering his community via an open area adjacent to his residence. xxxx(Taaffe) noted the majority of the individuals are young black males with a small percentage being whites and Hispanics. xxxx(Taaffe) has seen young black males entering the community smoking blunts. xxxx(Taaffe) has confronted some of the individuals entering the community via the open area, but xxxx(Taaffe) noted the individuals typically ignore him and continue speaking on their cellular phones.

      • Malisha says:

        It’s very telling. What gets Taaffe mad is that these young Black males “typically ignore him and continue speaking on their cellular phones.” He believes they are obligated to come to attention, end their conversations, and respond to the great white leader when he “confronts them.” This is, most probably, what Trayvon did to get Fogen into his murderous rage; he walked along talking on his cellular phone while ignoring the white lord and master who ultimately confronted him. You can just SEE the indignation Taaffe exhibits about being ignored by these supposedly inferior beings who have failed to acknowledge his mastery. THIS IS WHAT THE CASE IS ABOUT. Taaffe was also “mad as hell” but he was not armed and dangerous. He was drunk and laughable instead. Lucky him.

      • towerflower says:

        A TV station also did a story about the cut through and when they were filming there was several people taking advantage of the short cut, so if TM did use the short cut it was not unusual or suspicious.

        Note–since the shooting the development has taken steps to close off this short cut by fencing in the development.

      • FactsFirst says:

        Trayvon could have gone through Taaffe’s cut through, but since Taaffe and fogen are so quick to point that out IT GIVES ME PAUSE… And on top of that, I just can’t see Trayvon going out of his way to use that particular cut through IN THE RAIN while bypassing the closest one.. It makes no sense unless Trayvon was FORCED to use that cut through… just saying..

    • gbrbsb says:

      @facts first
      If I had to stake something on it I would chose the “gazebo”, or as I call it the “guard hut”, at Lakes Edge Apartments too. It makes much more sense from the layout, dirt tracks, and DD’s statement. I think BDLR kept confusing DD with the mail boxes because that was more in consonance with what GZ has said. But all ways it would then beg the question where did GZ first spot Trayvon, inside or outside of RATL?

      I also find it extremely difficult to accept Trayvon entered RATL through the cut through next to Taffe’s and not via the cut through nearest to the road from which he only had to walk straight up RVC to the clubhouse (if he actually went via the clubhouse which might not be true either). If you check out the 3d view on Google, to access the cut through next to Taffe´s it is furthest from the road and the ground is really hilly so in the dark would be difficult to navigate. On the other hand the cut through nearest to the road is a real doddle from the end of the street in Colonial Village. In second place if Trayvon did take the cut through next to Taffe’s why would he then turn left to walk back on his tracks to take RVC direction clubhouse and not turn right up RVC which from there is the shortest route to Brandy’s.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Except that someone on another thread here, posted that Lakes Edge complex is very secure and fenced with no casual entry at all. Just giving you a heads up before that writer sees your post. I’m sure we’re going to read that admonishment again.

      • FactsFirst says:

        There is a shed/gazebo type structure like right off Rinehart.. I looked at it on google satelle light it doensn’t look like a gaurd shack because it has no doors.. Its just a cute little structure right offa Lakes Edge’s driveway entry..

        LLMPapa is the MAN and I’d never disrespect him or his work.. All I’m saying is from what I saw, and the fact that FDLE said they/Laked Edge would have recorded video, Trayvon may have stopped at that Gazeebo because it’s on the same side of the Reinhart like all the other businesses and 7/11 and only like 1-2 minutes away..

        I believe fogen started following Trayvon right after he/Trayvon left 7/11 between 6:37 and 6:45pm.. (around the time the Osterman looking kat is caught on the TrustCo’s bank surveillance camera) Looong before fogen made his first NEN call.. But I’m no expert, it’s just my theory..

  32. George Zimmerman trial: State wants Travyon Martin’s personal life off limits,0,5527808.story

    The prosecution in the George Zimmerman murder case has asked a judge to prohibit testimony about shooting victim Trayvon Martin’s personal life, including whether he had been suspended from school, used marijuana or been in a fight.

    The information is irrelevant and would prejudice a jury, the state contends in the motion, filed late Friday.

    The motion also asks the judge to disallow:

    •Screen names used by Trayvon on social media.

    •The fact that he wore or owned a set of gold teeth.

    •The contents of text messages received or sent by Trayvon before Feb. 26, the day he died.

    •The contents of text messages received or sent by Trayvon on Feb. 26 unless a court has ruled them admissible.

    •The level of marijuana in Trayvon’s blood the night he was killed.

    George Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old South Florida youth. The killing happened Feb. 26, 2012 in Zimmerman’s neighborhood in Sanford.

    Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense as Travyon punched him in the face and pummeled his head into the ground. Trayvon was unarmed.

    • racerrodig says:

      And as the real world knows, all of it is irrelevant and I’d bet this one is Granted….

    • Trained Observer says:

      I think it’s a win for the State no matter which way JN rules. Trayon’s lifestyle and achievements (cut so miserably short), are bound to look vibrantly wholesome compared to the dismal loser life of Fogen with his flunking academic record, history of workplace bullying, accusations of his cousinly sexual molestation, criminal assault record — and, oh, yes, his inclination toward murder for no earthly reason other than he thought it was a good night to spot, stalk, confront, and kill.

      In fact, to me it looks like the State may be indulging in some baiting. If JN rules against the State, then it stands to reason that it’ll be open season on Fogen … his Myspace war on Mexicans, the whole enchilada of his crappola life.

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ you just KNOW those freaking racists are going to go ape shit over these “caveats”! I can already hear the hatred-dripped venom about Trayvon and his “thug background that they are trying to cover up.” AUGH!! WHY DON’T they just let it out there for people to see? I own fake teeth! I send colorful texts! I have a FB account! Does HAVING those automatically make me a criminal? WTF is WRONG with these people??

      • Racist hate has melted their brain.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Racist hate has melted their brain.”

          It sure has, and there is nothing more pathetic than when they try and sell that racist crap…….and then try to use their version of “Logic” Damn is that funny.

        • Xena says:

          @SG2. Well see, it’s like this;
          A white teen girl with purple and pink streaks in her hair is a rocker. A black teen girl with the same is “ghetto.”

          A white woman coming to court with sculptured nails is appropriated dressed. A Black mother of a 17 yr old unarmed boy with sculptured nails is “ghetto.”

          A black male teen with tattoos of names of women relatives is a thug. An afro-peruvian grown-ass man with a gang tattoo is a decent American.

          A black male teen whose dad gave him money and has $40 in his pocket is a burglar. A grown-ass afro-peruvian man working full-time going grocery shopping with 40 cents in his pocket is simply down on his luck.

          A couple consisting of a white wife and afro-peruvian husband who rent, and are able to move their belongings on the spur of the moment overnight are said to live frugally. A black woman on her job for more than 20 yrs with her own house is a “welfare queen.”

          Shall I continue?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        They want so badly for Fogen to be a good guy (or to further their wet dreams of self-defense) that they can’t see the forest for the trees.

      • @Xena


        • Xena says:




          Don’t get me started.

          A white kid with problems understanding math only needs an hour of tutoring a week. A black kid with problems understanding math is placed in special ed.

          When a country-rock group plays “Respect” in a country bar, everyone turns and smiles at the only black patron in the place.

          Nurses taking medical history ask White women how many children they have. They ask Black women how many pregnancies they’ve had.

      • Rachael says:

        There is nothing more that I can add to this conversation other than to say I agree with every single one of you. Oh wait, I kind of can. Oh wait – they changed it LMAO!!!!! Anyway, there was an article written at the outhouse about the places you go, the trips you take through parenthood and I see that part of that was deleted. But it was something about one of my journies was called “Mom, I Think The Officer Calls It ‘Grand Theft, Auto.” But there is “How about I Got Suspended or I Might Get An F In Math?” And the person who wrote it later commented, “Notable couple I left out: I Have Wrecked Both Cars At The Same Time, (subtitled I Buried The Door Of Dad’s Truck In The Fender Of Your Car) and Four Cop Cars Finally Stopped Me Doing Over 90MPH (subtitled I Didn’t Even Know They Were Chasing Me).”

        So these are okay when it is white kids of two-parent families?

        Anyway, like I said, I can’t really add anything other than I agree. Bunch of sickbastardracists.

      • Shari says:

        @Xena Your comment at 12pm is on point.

        Remember the Zidiots complain about Fogens mugshot, they said it was unfair. They never acknowledge WHY we only had a mugshot of him. They never care that this man has been arrested. So they want the child to be labeled a thug when Fogen is the only thug on trial. They talk about a non existent juvenile record for the victim. They ignore Fogen’s assault on an officer (strange I thought they were the law and order types who respect police), assault on women, co workers, molestation. They give every opportunity for Fogen to explain his horrid actions but decide that a child who JUST turned 17 is a thug. SMH.

        Trayvon had tattoos, so what Fogen had gang tatoos.

        A few weeks before being murdered the victim smoked weed. Give me a break. I was in high school in the 90’s and the only difference was in HOW the weed was smoked. Fogen is an alcoholic who was probably mixing it with tempazepam and adderall.

        • Xena says:

          @Shari. I wish I could remember exactly where and put my finger on it now. See, I didn’t become active in blogging or commenting on blogs about this case until around June last year. In late March through April, I commented on Yahoo articles about the case. There was a clear pattern of White Supremacist filth consistently regurgitated.

          It was while researching in March 2012 that I came upon a blog post. It may have been on Wagist or Riehl World, but the author had an in-your-face attitude, plainly stating that the only way for GZ to be “set free” was to “thugify” Trayvon Martin. The article was articulated in a manner to instruct their followers to keep the issue on race and humiliate everyone associated with Trayvon and/or supporting the arrest of GZ.

          Any discussion of evidence or facts about GZ was to be met with personal attacks. It also suggested that people post as though they are Black, using racial slurs against Whites. And, I’ve seen handles on those sites, CTH, and Yahoo comments doing just that as an intentional embarrassment.

          It’s my impression that some on that wagon train do not realize where the root agenda derived. It’s 100 percent White Supremacy filth.

      • Shari says:


        I can’t reply under your comment published at 3pm.

        The fake Trayvon comparison pics and bus driver story did come from stormfront. Don’t ask me how I know. SMH. I said it before that Fogen self identified as white. If he has stalked and killed Trevor O’Reilly Dan Rhiel/Legal Insurrection/Michelle Mallkin would NOT be defending him. He would be every south american slur in the book and they would be talking about illegal immigrant gangs like MS13.

        I look forward to the trial. Evidence is supreme and I’m ready to see what else AC and BDR have.

        The family of Trayvon inst the first and only one to deal with a high profile trial. The difference is for the first time to my knowledge they don’t have universal support from the public at large. Scott Peterson and other high profile defendants were justified in their worries about a fair trial. Fogen has the benefit of a FOX news channel star backing him. He has a whole political movement behind him. I watch many high profile trials play out on TV and usually there is a pro defense devils advocate but very few support the criminal defendant.

        • Xena says:


          The fake Trayvon comparison pics and bus driver story did come from stormfront.

          Thanks for that info. Yes, that was another site I found early on. Those are the guys that also started the lie about Trayvon being a drug dealer. It was a plot to thugify Trayvon before GZ was arrested.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Shari and Xena,
        I agree with all of your comments here. You are both so capable of exposing the trashing that comes from racists. Every stone that they try to hide under should be lifted and a blinding spotlight should be directed unmercifully on them.

        The more and more that I try to examine the white privilege that was unjustly bestowed upon me, the more horrified I become at its insidious power. I pray for the day that white privilege will no longer exist.

        Until that day, I will continue to educate myself, my friends, and others about white privilege and its effects.

        I will also do all I can to pry off the “racist barnacles” from whatever power or platform they attempt to grab when I run into them on the internet or other places.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, as I have so often stated, it is really horrible how these blog sites allow those who support this “CHILD MURDERING OBESE POS” a venue to spew their racial hatred of this child, his family and AA in general. hate speech is definitely not free speech no matter how you look at it.

        What is the reason for all of this? Fogen is not worth what’s going on in this country and, for those who want to support him, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO SAY AND DO THE THINGS, THAT THEY ARE DOING TO HIM AND HIS FAMILY. Trayvon never touched this murdering SOB and Fogen knows it. I read a comment on the facebook page of Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon Crump’s page that, witness 6 told Fogen not to shoot Trayvon and, after it was done, Fogen asked him to help cover this murder up.

        How could this person do this, knowing a child had been murdered by this self righteous B*****D and, help him cover it up by lying on the victim for his murdering THUGGISH POS friend. this person did run into his home after telling Fogen not to shoot and, after the shot was fired he went back outside.

        He murdered this kid and, then tells W6 to help him cover it up. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself, if I knew all about what this slob did to a child and, just sit back and lie for him by lying on the innocent child victim. if this is true, W6 should be charged with perjury as well as, obstruction of justice. SMDH

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I just LOVE your comment and, having church the way you brought up all of those examples of how whites and AA are compared by some whites in this country, is nothing but the truth and the whole truth. some of these racist people have just spread things about Trayvon and his family that just isn’t true nor is it right. as for who receives welfare the most, I have gone to the DSS in my city with a friend of mine and, the lobby is ALWAYS full of white people waiting to be seen for what ever reason.

        I know some AA receive public assistance but, according to these racist in this country, all AA are sitting at home waiting for the first of the month in order to collect their public assistance checks, food stamps and medicaid. NOT true at least it isn’t where I live. another one that you didn’t mention is, the number of teen pregnancies according to the racist of this country is, only a problem in the AA culture when it’s not. why do these people do things such as this?

        BTW, I hope you and the rest of the women here had a very Happy Mother’s Day.

    • racerrodig says:

      I doubt Nelson will allow any expert to testify via Video.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Maybe the expert could just phone it in! (Or post a little something on Facebook.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was surprised they allowed the testimony by phone in the bond hearing. That suggests they might allow testimony by Skype or video.

        • racerrodig says:

          A Bond Hearing is one thing but a trial is far different. I seriously doubt the any judge would allow an expert, someone you case could hinge on testifying by any means but “Live & in Person”

      • ladystclaire says:

        I think they should allow DeeDee to testify via video as well as in silhouette to keep her safe even after the trial. the family of Fogen was not being threatened and, they are not being threatened today. how is Gladys going to testify, maybe by phone and, why the hell are they keeping her face from being shown?

        She must be a pretty ugly woman since they want to continue to hide her face.

        • racerrodig says:

          “She must be a pretty ugly woman since they want to continue to hide her face.”

          I’m glad somebody else said it before me !! is she that embarrassed ?? Remember, we’re still trying to figure out who the real mom is. Seriously…..and those pesky Zidiots play that racist game questioning if Tracey is really Trayvon’s father. Man I love slapping them with “…who the real mom is…”

          Dee Dee is a witness, not an expert and probably still a minor. She may, in the interest of safety, be allowed to testify from outside the courthouse……

          That would be a slap in the collective Zidiots face now, wouldn’t it?

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- we know for a fact that Gladys Z is hideously ugly INSIDE where she should have a heart and compassion. Instead it is filled with hate and venom. She is like Jesus’s parable of the beautiful mausoleum filled with rotting corpses.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            For the most part, every one of them has a black heart. Not a normal one in the entire family. And SheLie’s dad spent a few years in prison as well…….what a group !!

            Imagine Christmas Dinner at that household !!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I guess MOM is hoping he can get Knox to testify if he can do it from the Cayman Islands. 😆

    • Jun says:

      I think I see what Omara is doing here

      He wants it video conferenced at the evidentiary hearing so he can use that to downplay it, since it is not live and in person


    Click to access 051013_video_expert.pdf

    • cielo62 says:

      SG2~ WHAT??!!!  The defense is so cheap they can’t even bring the witnesses into court!!???

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “But the Witness looks sweet
        Upon the seat
        Of a bicycle built for Two.”

      • Xena says:

        @cielo62. Haha!!! Look at the title of the document in the link. It says “video expert.” It the witnesses are specific to the Frye hearing, it should be termed “audio expert.”

        Just goes to show that O’Mara is outside of his realm of expertise.

        • racerrodig says:

          His video expert will say that LLMPapa’s videos are “not accurate”

          • Xena says:


            His video expert will say that LLMPapa’s videos are “not accurate”

            LOL!!! What would really be funny is if BDLR finds the expert’s name on CTH. He will be set to question on credentials for sure.

          • racerrodig says:

            Let me get this right……..O’ Mara wants an anonymous jury, and now an anonymous expert…… I understand that correctly ?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Don’t worry, he’d also prefer an anonymous defendant if he can get it. Expect a motion for that as well. Maybe he can have gz attend the trial from North Korea by sat-link?

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m thinking he’ll show up with a fake birth cert. and say “…ya got the wrong guy…” It’s coming.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena~ LOL! Caught! I didn’t read it; the title said via teleconference, so I supposed it was getting the “expert” from Inner Patagonia to testify via Skype or something. And there is a difference between an audio expert and a video expert. I guess MOM hasn’t kept up with the times and terminology.

          • Xena says:


            And there is a difference between an audio expert and a video expert. I guess MOM hasn’t kept up with the times and terminology.

            Well, maybe the only expert O’Mara can find to say it is GZ’s voice yelling for help, is a video expert — one that sees voices. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            It has to be Taaffe…………..after all, he does have “Short Term Vision”

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. ROFLMAO!!

          • racerrodig says:

            Okay……here it comes…..You’d laugh at a guy with a disability like Frank “The Racist Tank” has…….

            Go stand in the corner !!

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Hey!!! Short-term vision expert Taaffee — I have to crawl to the corner. ROFLMAO.

          • racerrodig says:

            The poor man can’t see past his red nose and you’re laughing at him…..I’m telling unitron, since I just read his preposterous crap on Diwat’s blog how we all pick on poor Fogen and SheLie and such.

            That rat bastard said the Professor was sorry to see him go. The Professor said he was tired of his BullShit….that rates right there with Fogen saying he was getting signs of “solidarity” from the fellow inmates in prison… know, the middle finger salute, the slash across the throat wave….those signs.

          • Xena says:


            The poor man can’t see past his red nose and you’re laughing at him…..I’m telling unitron, since I just read his preposterous crap on Diwat’s blog how we all pick on poor Fogen and SheLie and such.

            My recollection is that the head of the Zidiot wasp nest said he is dedicated to destroying and “vetting” (doxing) the mouth pieces of the “Trayvon Martin camp,” and he places Leatherman at the head of the list of those to “destroy.” Anyone who takes up the Zidiot wasp nest agenda is easily recognizable, as far as I’m concerned.

            A clear sign is when they can no longer post comments here and go over the fence and camp out in enemy territory, and the enemy knows they were active here and accepts them as long as bad mouth the “Trayvon Martin camp.”

          • racerrodig says:

            Their transparency is, well……crystal clear.

          • Xena says:


            Their transparency is, well……crystal clear.

            Yep, even when one of their cowardly behinds send out code to others in the Zidiot wasp nest to do their bullying for them.

          • racerrodig says:

            It must be a gift, but I can smell a Zidiot a mile away.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- oh! Is that code anything like “the pizza is in the oven. Again, the pizza is in the oven.”

            Sent from my iPod

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          No, he actually meant video expert, he doesn’t want to go near the audio recordings at all. So he’s gotten an expert to analyze the video recordings instead. How will that help his case? The answer is it won’t help, but, since the video the expert will be analyzing is the Moon Landing, there’s no way this expert testimony can hurt. ;lol:

          • racerrodig says:

            No, No, No !!! This is O’ Mara we’re talking about. “Alleged Moon Landing” and I think that it’s undisputed.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I stand indisputably corrected, my bad! 😆

          • racerrodig says:

            it’s undisputed we allegedly landed on the moon, or is it undisputed Fogen allegedly had a broken nose, or was he allegedly broke while om the moon???

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Could the foggen have broken his nose on the moon? 25 days to Zero Hour: 9am 6/20/13 Tick Tock!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            ‘ll bet if we listen to those recordings real closely we’ll hear….

            “….um there’s a real suspicious cosmonaut over there……..and he’s up to no good……”

            “Houston here……you have a problem??”

            “…, no……but I bumped my nose on the console a minute ago”
            So, it’s possible with FogenPhoole “Space Kadet”

      • ay2z says:

        racerrodig, like this one!? MOM team might as well take on Sir Issac Newton in the Frye hearing too, for generally accepted scientific theory and the generally accepted applications of gravity to this case.

        • racerrodig says:

          Note to Moron O’ Mara : all liquids flow “downhead” er, downhill.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            racerrpdig said:

            Note to Moron O’ Mara : all liquids flow “downhead” er, downhill.

            WARNING, WARNING, WARNING: Message not received reason: skull too thick, please sharpen message and try again later.

          • racerrodig says:

            No Problem……I’ll send an e-mail to his office……size 72 font. That should do it.

      • Rachael says:

        @racerrodig –

        “His video expert will say that LLMPapa’s videos are “not accurate”

        LMAO – did that “sort of” already happen? That went well for them, didn’t it.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, IMO the only thing O’mara is an expert in is being an idiot and a shady lawyer with no moral compass what so ever.

      • aussie says:

        Ah I see a few can’t resist a bit of calling out and doxing someone who’s no longer here…………..totally uncalled for, Racer.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Unless BDLR consents to it, the video conferencing is not going to happen – Rule 2.530(d)(1) Florida Rules of Judicial Administration. Given that O’Mara is silent on the consent requirement and the two “experts” are not (timely) listed, I would imagine that BDLR has not consented – yet. O’Mara seems to be operating based on ad hoc decisions – not strategy.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        yet. O’Mara seems to be operating based on ad hoc decisions – not strategy

        That’s been my impression. I am kind shocked how unprofessional the entire operation looks.

        I would love to hear your opinion about the State’s motions

        They seem very organized and ready to go to me.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I read all the Motions almost as soon as they were published. They are well written, quite concise and to the point. I have the feeling that they were written a while ago and preserved in the shelves to be filed at the appropriate moment.

        This prosecution is definitely well organized, thorough/gründig and disciplined. With the current Motions the disarmament of the defense has begun. If all the Motions are granted (and I do not see why they would not be – at this stage), O’Mara will enter the battlefield without any offensive weapons.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        What I read in these motions is the State signaling to the Defense that they know their intended strategy.

        Make a thug out of Trayvon, turn GZ into an upstanding citizen, blame the black panthers, Al Sharpton and Ben Crump for inciting violence, blame politics for overruling the SPD on whether GZ should be charged, use emergency personel and witnesses to tell GZ’s side of the story.

        • Shari says:

          They really show no respect for the trial. They are in denial that this is really happening and he must answer to Murder 2 charges. This is not about MSNBC or protesters. It’s about Fogen killing a child.

          Fogen scares me, him and his racist gang: Taffee and MO. Wonder who else was involved?

      • groans says:

        SearchingMind – Thanks for the rule reference.

        I don’t know why BDLR would/should consent. I would think that cross-examination in person would be far more effective than via teleconferencing, and a Frye hearing isn’t some mundane, routine procedure. The DEFENSE ASKED for an evidentiary hearing – so, surely, they ought to be expected to bring their own witnesses to their own party!

        And, Lord knows, the State doesn’t owe the defense any favors – it’s quite the other way around. That’s the defense’s own fault, and one reason I’ve been so shocked by their obnoxious behavior and, frankly, sleazy attitudes. What goes around, eventually comes around.

        OTOH, if BDLR is confident enough, he could continue granting the defense consideration and generosity, so that when the axe falls on their failed shenanigans, there’s no one for the defense to “blame” except themselves. And that won’t escape the judge’s notice, either.


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hahaha… O’Mara’s finally found an expert, unfortunately the expert is living in the Maldives and doesn’t want to be in Florida where he might have to face perjury charges, so he’ll only testify by video conference. Preferably pre recorded so that he can’t be cross examined.

        O’Mara is a big fan of having his witnesses simply testify, and not have cross examination allowed. I wonder if he feels that the SP should have their witnesses testify without cross either? Not a wonder why he’s being called O’Haha!

  34. Nef05 says:

    Racer? Can you do your thing with Nickelback’s “Hero”.?

    “Someone told me, love would all save us.
    But HOW can that be, look what love gave us.
    A world full of killing, and blood spilling, that won’t never (sic) change!”

    Chorus: And they say that a HERO can save us. I’m not gonna stand here and wait. I’ll hold on to the wings of a EAGLE, watch as they all fly away”

    Think you can do something with it, Racer? I’m thinking this is in your wheelhouse! Maybe even an Anthem! How cool would that be, to be forever linked, positively, to Trayvon? IJS!

    • Nef05 says:

      Myy bad. I forget that I can’t use videos in my personal playlist.

      • Nef05 says:

        Ah, better!

      • racerrodig says:

        Do my best……….

        I am so high, I can hear heaven
        I am so high, I can hear heaven
        Whoa, but Trayvon, yeah, Trayvon can you hear me ?

        And they say that a hero could save us
        We’re not gonna stand here and wait
        We’ll hold on to the wings of the eagles
        Watch as we all fly away

        Someone told me love would all save us (It can)
        But, how can that be, look what love gave us (stop the hatred)
        A world full of killing, and blood spilling
        That world may soon come

        And they say that a hero could save us
        We’re not gonna stand here and wait
        We’ll hold on to the wings of the eagles
        Watch as we all fly away, Ahhaaaa

        Now that the world isn’t ending
        It’s love that I’m sending to you (feel the love)
        And it;s the love of a hero
        And that’s why I pray it will do

        And they say that a hero could save us
        We’re not gonna stand here and wait
        We’ll hold on to the wings of the eagles
        Watch as we all fly away

        And they’re watching us, (watching us)
        They’re watching us, (watching us)
        As we all fly away

        And they’re watching us, (watching us)
        They’re watching us, (watching us)
        As we all fly away

        And they’re watching us, (watching us)
        They’re watching us, (watching us)
        As we all fly away

        I love the power of that “Mesa Boogie Rectifier” (amp) sound and what it can convey.

        I hope this does it and conveys the message, “We’re not gonna stand here and wait” is reference to all the activities of Team Trayvon, Sean Cunningham’s petition and what the Professor teaches. “…eagles…” those more learned & in authority…..”fly away” ….rise above the Zidiots and the hatred they spew.

  35. ay2z says:

    Will Omara still go with this position as he states to the court at the beginning of this video, again by LLMPapa.

    This notable quote by Papa stands the test of time, it holds true today as it did when O’Mara said what he said (for the cameras and jury pool via Judge Nelson’s court cameras), and it will hold true through and beyond trial, no matter the outcome.

    I submit to you, Counselor, the facts of what happened that night should be your concern, not the deflective vilification of three people and a nation who demanded your client be held accountable.


    (Papa, hope it’s ok with you to put the two sentences into one for a single quotation)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Nice, thanks ay2z. No parents should have to endure this type of loss.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      On February 26 and 27, gz told a story of how a ferocious and deadly monster attacked him out of the dark. He told us the fearsome details of how the terrible attack proceeded. He described how his head was being helplessly bashed hard against a concrete sidewalk, while his attacker continued the assault, designed to take his life. gz says he was powerless to defend himself, because he had forgotten about the gun he always carries.

      Too bad indeed that he always forgets that he always carries a gun, because, had he remembered that he had a firearm, he could have drawn it before going into that dangerous space, and been ready to warn his attacker off, preventing the need to discharge the weapon at all. But, as luck would have it, gz could not for the life of him remember that he was armed, until he felt a hand on his chest, which reminded him that he had a gun hidden behind his right hip inside his pants and under his body.

      The Chief of police and the prosecutor found this story very credible. So credible in fact, they refused to charge gz with a crime. They did not yet know who Trayvon was, but they were sure that gz was a hero who had saved the neighborhood from some kind of deadly criminal.

      gz went on with his story to say that, Trayvon had bloodied his head and face with a terrible flurry of blows with hands that he believed had bricks in them. Then, while his head was being pounded so hard on the concrete, he managed to wriggle away from the concrete, which caused his jacket to rise up, making his gun visible (only if both bodies had turned into glass).

      Next, according to his story, Trayvon’s hands going down away from his head and towards a gun that could not be seen, somehow gave gz the distinct impression that he was one blow away from wearing diapers for the rest of his life. So he drew his gun and shot his attacker.

      Now I know this story already sounds screwy and cannot be believed even though I’ve cleaned it up by leaving out a lot of the conflicting claims that were also made by gz. But, as you can see, anyone who believes gz’s story, should be wearing a straight jacket!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        George likes to tell cartoon-level stories.

        Great post, Lonnie.

      • Malisha says:

        They should only be wearing the straight jacket when they’re out in general population, though. Alone in their cells those other 23 hours per day they should be unrestrained, in my opinion. Don’t want to be cruel.

  36. kllypyn says:

    Less than a month from now the murderer of Trayvon Benjamin Martin will go on trial.

    But if not FOR Zimmerman Trayvon would looking forward to graduating later this month. But if not for “Zimmerman Trayvon would be looking forward to his last summer break before college.

    But if not for Zimmerman Trayvon would probably be going to the same college his brother went to. But if not for Zimmerman trayvon after college would get his first job working for the aviation industry unless he decided to study something else.

    But if not for Zimmerman Trayvon would eventually marry his girlfriend or someone else.He wouldn’t have been the first kid to marry his high school sweet heart after college.

    But if not for Zimmerman Trayvon and his wife would eventually have had kids and given his parents grand children and his brother nieces or nephews or both.His kids would have played Jahvaris’s kids.

    All those hopes and dreams ended along with Trayvon’s life. no thanks to George Micheal Zimmerpunk. He had every opportunity to avoid a tragedy he didn’t take any of them. He sent an innocent barely 17 year old kid screaming to his death.

    Certain nut jobs want to accuse Tracy and Sybrina of being bad parents. which they were not. Because Trayvon got into some minor trouble in school. they were not bad parents. Millions of kids get in trouble at school and most of their parents are good parents. The way Jahvaris has conducted himself through this whole ordeal proves the type of parents they are,unlike the Zimmermans.

    The Zimmermans on the other hand have proven how disgusting they are. Robert jr has gone on racist rants on his twitter page while continuing to parrot his brothers lies on certain racist websites.Even giving interviews to white supremists. His father perjured himself during Zimmerman first bond hearing when he said he heard zimmerman scream like that when he was a teen (actually he accidentally admitted trayvon was screaming he’s just too stupid to realize it.)

    They have always lied to help Zimmerman get out of trouble. instead of making him take responsibility for his actions they know he had a history of violence they also know trayvon never touched him they also know he is a violent person who,likes to go after people weaker than himself.

    That’s why he went after Trayvon he knew Trayvon was no match for him.He just didn’t expect Trayvon resist him like he did he thought Trayvon would do what he wanted when he resisted he lost it and killed him while he screamed for his life. Come july Zimmerman will begin the first of many years in a prison cell,wishing he had never encountered Trayvon that night. It’s his own fault. He should have left trayvon alone.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Kllypyn — I hope the State distills your thoughts above to remind jurors of what might have been, had it not been for Fogen’s brainless predator act. A succinct version during opening arguments, at intervals during trial, and at closing would be no understatement.

      Furthermore the nerve of the Fogen family’s attempts to demonize Trayvon and his family is also needs to be conveyed.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @kllypyn. “But if not for Zimmerman Trayvon would”.

      Sounds like a good closing argument to me.

  37. Malisha says:

    Fogen’s trapped.
    He thinks it is very unfair for him to be trapped.
    Yeah, “See, how does it feel?”
    Yeah. Grim, huh?

  38. ay2z says:

    And the classic about the fairytalke of defendant walking almost three football fields in 46 seconds…..



    • racerrodig says:

      Black Dynamite Slim Jetson….yeah, that’s the ticket !!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Superb performance!

      • ladystclaire says:

        @TO, he smirked through out the entire interview. he is in no way sorry for what he did and, yet he had the nerve to get in the box at his first bond hearing with his self serving apology to Trayvon’s parents.

        He also violated one of the conditions of his bond, when he looked into the camera on Hannity and, did another so called apology to the parents. he should have been hauled right back into jail for doing that but, he got away with it.

  39. kllypyn says:

    Less than a month till trial.

  40. Follow….a little late….I’m here tho.


  41. Rachael says:

    OMG, I know this is OT, but I just read this and feel so sad for this woman. How could she go through this shit day in and day out while that fricken *ussy cries about being brutally beaten by Trayvon? He has NO clue what a brutal beating is the wuss. I read something like this and it only makes me hate GZ even more. How DARE he and his supporters talk about how he was so severely, savagely and brutally beaten, how DARE they!!!

  42. ay2z says:

    Tomorrow, four weeks from tomorrow….

  43. ay2z says:

    This day is another one of those celebrated calendar days that is hard for families of lost loved ones. And today, an aching reminder for a mother whose child was lost to senseless, ignorant, anger-driven, violence by a Neighborhood Watch rule breaker with a licence to carry and kill.

    Sybrina will no doubt feel the need to hold Jahvaris even closer today.

  44. Happy Mother’s Day to all the beautiful mothers!

    • Rachael says:

      Hey, how ’bout us ugly ones too!

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Rachael. No mother is ugly. We shine today. Hope you have a happy and blessed one.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Rachael. I take that back. No mother is ugly on this blog.

      • Rachael says:

        LOL I agree and happy mothers day to everyone too. My kids just brought me flowes chocolates and a balloon!

      • My kids are so darling. I love them so much. They fired up the grill today. And they brought me cake, flowers, an edible arrangement with Pineapple, Strawberries and Grapes. I am so spoiled! 🙂

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, you are not ugly and, I know that for a fact! anybody with a heart of gold like you and the rest of the people supporting Trayvon and his family, there is not one ugly thing about them and, this includes you Beautiful Rachael.

  45. Mary Davis says:

    Happy Mother’s Day everyone.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Happy Mother’s Day to you Mary and to all of you!

      • Bahama Mama says:

        Happy Mothers Day YAHTC. I will miss you on the vine, will you still be here?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And a Happy Mother’s Day to you, Bahama Mama!
        Yes, I will still be here. I will miss you and our Trayvon Team on the vine, but just know that you will be able to find me here.
        I admire you very much, Jo-An… are wise, fun and a wonderful social justice advocate! Love ya!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Happy Mothers Day all X0X0X0

  46. Romaine says:

    Happy Mothers Day

  47. colin black says:

    PS I didnt write this bit

    Taking DeeDee’s statement into consideration, I don’t believe that anyone physically appeared on foot other than GZ. There might have been a vehicle on TTL at the end of the T which caused Trayvon to hesitate walking to the end to turn the corner to get to the front of the house.

    Not sure if Xena or ??? wrote it>

  48. colin black says:

    It makes no sence foggage would engage in a footchase with a younger taller leaner quicker YOUTH .

    A CHILD with at least a 30 or 40 yard start an even begin to think youd catch them.
    Also haveing to run at an angainly gait because phone to ear an talking.

    No way woulg he hope to be even a dot in the horizon of TRAYVONS rear veiw mirror if he had one.

    No foggaggge zoomed round to the backgate to block of his backgate exit with his vech ich kill.

    But suprise suprise his prey wasnt legging it to the backgate exit.
    He had slowed down to talk to Dee Dee in the mistaken beleif he had lost the creepy guy on the phone.

    Its the only scenario that fits acrams razor an all that.

  49. colin black says:

    Taking DeeDee’s statement into consideration, I don’t believe that anyone physically appeared on foot other than GZ. There might have been a vehicle on TTL at the end of the T which caused Trayvon to hesitate walking to the end to turn the corner to get to the front of the house

    I M O foggagge after cerb crawling Trayvon an giveing him the evil eye with phone to his ear.

    He knew he had spooked him as that was his intent…
    Frighten the susspect out of complex an towards the back gate.
    He realy took of running before foggage reports it to disspatch.

    More than likely about the time foggagge is reporting he is here now an stareing at me.
    Trayvon has altready ran.
    But sherlock hommie knows thease punk assed coons always head to the back gate.

    So thats were he drove to an parked the vicinity of the backgate.
    Thinking he would beat Trayvon there an confront an detain him as he trys to exit.

    Suprise suprise as he exits the vech ich KILL.
    He hears either a phone ring or someone Talking from down the dog path.
    This is when he quickly gets dispatch of the line with the.
    CALL ME when they get here remark.

    And thats why he kept sthum about his truck at scene
    So much so they thought he was a pedestrian.
    Only when he knew his vech ich kill was parked outside the home he was illegally squattting in rent free did he start with his TRUCH story an were it was he thought he may have parked it..


    • aussie says:

      No, Colin, the truck was still up there around the bend in TTL, the cops found it when checking tags in the area, remember? This was a bit after 8 p.m. it was only moved later.

  50. LeaNder says:

    This is is a good question concerning the deposition of Shellie Z. by unitron.

    So did anybody try to make a video recording of Shellie’s deposition?

    Amazingly little interest concerning the deposition of Fogen’s wife in the usual Fogen supporters on the topic over there. Only few surface.

    I think however irritating I find the occasional comment, I basically think that unitron and nomatter_nevermind are among the few over there trying to remain neutral.

    The comments by both that startled me most surrounded the ABC audio brouhaha. But strictly I have to admit that the idea that media was present and did not record the whole event feels slightly odd. On the other hand, considering what irrational use and interpretation we saw concerning the little they released, I guess I would be very, very hesitant to influence the course of legal procedures with material I have, if I had more. One thing the discussion around the released audio file shows (,) is (,) to what extend people are able to twist everything according to their own preconceptions. (I guess there should be a comma somewhere, but where?)

    Do I respond with preconceptions too? The most interesting passage for me was the one where DeeDee corrects Crump, after he asks her to repeat a specific part of the story. Obviously he got something wrong. For me that is no evidence of manipulation or coaching quite the opposite. Thus I really wonder what piece of evidence from that little sequence of events Team Fogen bases their allegations on. Nothing in that tape proves that to me, quite the opposite it supports what Crump stated about the event in his affidavit. There were problems with the quality, and he had to change phones. And considering the time of the call versus the time of his taped sequences, could he have checked the quality occasionally? How else would he have noticed he had to make another recording?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Unitron has some sort of agenda other than neutrality. Unitron comments here, there, and everywhere, trying to simultaneously stir things up while supposedly maintaining neutrality. Follow Unitron comments over time over various sites and you’ll see that he/she is a shizz stirrer, and why Unitron was banned here.

      I agree with you on your perceptions of the W8 – Crump brouhaha. It’s a tempest in the teapot stirred up by the Fogen camp to muddy the waters because they’ve got nothing else and must put on their tinfoil hats and yowl about railroading and conspiracy theories.

      • LeaNder says:

        Agree about shit stirrer tstas, the matters that startled me here, I don’t remember specifics were somehow sick challenges of Fred. It usually makes me more aware of matters when others are targeted. It was way beyond begging to differ, that’s all I remember.

        Not too long ago he recounted the story of how he got banned over here extensively on Diwataman’s blog, claiming the comment that got him banned wasn’t even a comment by him. …

        But still the question is not bad. Strictly prosecution could have taped her too. I too see a nexus between Team Fogen’s treatment of the Crump, the family and DeeDee and the prosecution’s disposing of the wife, if the family of Trayvon indeed matters so much that even Sybrina, who wasn’t a witness to the events, has to questioned close to 8 hours it seems, then surely Shellie was a much more relevant witness concerning the time preceding and the time post event.

        I am very curious how Nelson will deal with this.

        • cielo62 says:

          Leander~ The Ziditions don’t care about GZ, and we know that. They could not care even less and Mrs. GZ because SHE is not the one accused of killing a black teen under cover of SYG. They are protecting their precious SYG “rights”. The actual people matter not at all.

          • LeaNder says:

            I am not so sure, they don’t care. Concerning protecting their SYG rights, or maybe more generally, the liberals/the left tries to take my guns from me, surely is a top motivation. That’s why Robert jun tried to hijack the topic to his brothers advantage. But it surely is not the only motive.

            Ultimately they seem to be able to identify just as easily with Fogen as we for our own specific reason can identify with Trayvon.

            Sometimes this identification feels almost like a love affair to me admittedly. See e.g. Diwataman or Jeralyn, slightly more intellectually disguised.

            For Diwataman Fogen seems: someone like me, someone just as lovable as I am, a media hero love affair. At least that’s what it feels like to me. He projects all his self-assessed righteousness onto Fogen It showed again recently, when O’Mara said something, he didn’t like: suggest the however vague and rhetorically the possibility it could have been Trayvon too that screamed. Ultimately, experts disagree, just as the families disagree. We know of course how he will take care of Trayvon’s family’s position: financial interests.

            look at this odd introduction:

            As if I needed more ammo, now I get a wishy-washy O’Mara who makes it seem like George is guilty to criticize.

            That feels like a highly emotional response, O’Mara cannot cannot ever move beyond George is innocent, George screamed. It reads like a highly emotional stammer to me. 😉

            A self-chosen spiritual male love affair, beyond his son and, although never mentioned, but someone must have born the son, his wife.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        True. I can’t argue that it wasn’t a good question!

        I would think that Shellie is a relevant witness. Too bad the 5th amendment issues for spouses get in the way. It will be interesting to see what the prosecution does with this. I would think there is enough evidence to convict without Shellie.

      • Rachael says:

        “I would think there is enough evidence to convict without Shellie.”

        Of course there is, but you know that the Zppl are so sure this is just a frame up by the AA community and that they have to convict GZ or the world will explode, etc.

        However, if the words of his wife can do it, they will have little choice but to accept the conviction.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        So true. We’ll just have to wait and see what unfolds.

      • groans says:

        I enjoy Unitron’s comments … as long as they’re via some link to somewhere else and I can chose to view them, or not. I don’t miss him here. It’s been peaceful and informative again, free of his obnoxious, phoney-Socratic (and other) eructations.

    • LeaNder says:

      This originally was “in the usual Fogen camp”.

      Amazingly little interest concerning the deposition of Fogen’s wife in the usual dominant Fogen supporters camp on the topic over there. Only few surface.

      or maybe better, just not sure about “by”, seemingly I avoided to reflect about that.

      Amazingly little interest in the deposition of Shellie by the dominant Fogen supporters over there.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        They ignore most anything that doesn’t fit their paradigm of self-defense and railroading by the media and the state.

        • LeaNder says:

          tstas, no matter, what you and me and others think about him, he does his best in the Diwataman comment section to challenge the reigning pro-Fogen believe.

          I have to admit, I liked this too:

          Are you sure you aren’t confusing Susan with Jeralyn Merritt of talkleft?

          Susan insisted upon proper decorum, but I don’t remember her specifically taking sides to the extent Jeralyn has.

          If he was on Jeralyn’s side, that wouldn’t bother him very much. He may even have turned into one of the little informer helpers Jeralyn has nourished around her. Don’t you think?

          I am returning to my position that some of the matters that he writes irritate me, but I cannot really pinpoint what it is. Apart from my irritations concerning his obsession with media manipulation. As far as I am concerned media “manipulates” all the time, starting with selectiveness, on some topics much more obviously than on others. Obviously the more the less they include my specific take on matters. 😉 Beyond that I have to find his comment about the prof that irritated me highly. I wonder if it is easy to find.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t know, Leander. He /she alternately questions things on TalkLeft then buddies up with everyone at CTH. I find it confusing. And he claims someone hijacked his identity here – but he also claimed that at CTH, as if to cover up agreeing with anything here.

        I don’t find him to be reliable. Whatever his or her opinion, it’s his or her business, but I don’t get what the deal is! Maybe there really are two Unitrons. Or maybe Unitron has a very two-sided mind and personality. Or maybe Unitron really really is on the fence, surprising at this point.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Two sides –

          Unitron has a deep and compelling need to be acknowledged as “unique” and he is taking the least malevolent route to fulfilling this need.

          He is a stickler for spelling, punctuation, word usage and application of the facts – with zero flexibility.

          He does have a shy and gentle sense of humor, but it emerges only when he feels accepted and non-threatened.

          So here’s my armchair psychoanalysis, with absolutely no cred to back it up:

          He is one of, say, 15 siblings – with an overworked, over-stressed Mom who kept law & order through strict physical discipline. Dad was hard-pressed to provide for the brood and often avoided the chaos by hanging out at the local pub. No kid had a parent as a protector, and with such slim pickings, economically, there were no little luxuries to make any kid feel “special.” Hand-me-downs were the order of the day. Oldest/biggest kid got the only “new” clothing although the local thrift shop was the source. Each new baby was treated as special – until the next one came along (sooner than anyone wanted), then the older siblings pitched in – or didn’t. A lot of “picking on” going on by the older kids on the younger.

          I see Uni as one of the middle kids – determined to get out. No bucks available for advanced education but he was determined to get ahead – get a little education (likely in the tech arts – science, engineering, computers, accounting) because “you can count on the numbers.” As contrasted to the few things he could count on in early life. Solutions that are not open to dispute – dispute that harks back to all the endless quarrels and lack of approval he heard during his early years.

          Uni just wants everybody to “do the right thing.” He’s not taking sides. Growing up in a disputatious family, “taking sides” only leads to a good cuffing about the ears – or worse.

          When they named the Notre Dame football team “The Fighting Irish” they knew what they were talking about. I’m Irish by descent (with Viking-origin English on my mother’s side – a really tough, non-sentimental hybrid cross).

          Despite the warfare, I never considered I was growing up in a dysfunctional family – a term I learned long after I left the thatched roof. So, there was a lot of fighting? Ehhh – who noticed? The “function” of an Irish family IS to fight.

          As maddening as Uni could be, he gained my respect and affection.

          I expect he’ll be cheering for Bernie – he wants a champion to prove Zimmerman guilty.

          For Uni, it’s the proof that counts.

          • parrot says:


            “He is a stickler for spelling, punctuation, word usage and application of the facts – with zero flexibility.”

            He was picky about other’s mistakes, but rarely acknowledged his own.

            I thought he was arrogant and disrespectful to some posters and particularly to the host of this blog.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            I agree with everything you say, Parrot. Uni is a real pain in the butt – and he takes pride in this.

            We are a pretty flexible group on this site, Parrot, as to how we express ourselves, one to another – often with a little kidding and a lot of camaraderie. We expect and understand little errors and typos – what we are looking for in each other is simply a COMMITMENT to “Justice for Trayvon.”

            I don’t see that as Uni’s commitment – he wants cold statistical answers, period. It’s beyond his personality to explore flights of fancy as to how certain identified events in this case happened.

            Most of us find theorizing valuable – eventually leading to valid discoveries. We need and respect that theorizing.

            Strikes me that this is simply outside Uni’s mindset. I think that in his formative years, daydreaming was not valued by those in charge.

            As I said, I think he’ll be rooting for Bernie de la Rionda as the case unfolds.

            Uni wants certainty.

          • Xena says:


            I thought he was arrogant and disrespectful to some posters and particularly to the host of this blog.

            Okay — now you’re hitting closer to the truth. There are people who are afraid of the Zidiot wasp nest. Whomever the Zidiot wasp nest attacks, they attack in effort to prevent being cyber-harassed and doxed by Zidiots. The doxing done by Zidiots does not have be the right person or people. It can be anyone they find convenient, and they pass that lying crap around as being for the person.

            Whenever I see anyone posting without being arrogant and disrespectful, and then change to being arrogant and disrespectful especially to blog hosts, my first suspicion is that they have been contacted by the Zidiot wasp nest and threatened.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            He’d have loved usenet, even after aol ruined it. His schtick isn’t very good on blogs where people are trying to develop ideas from germs. Remember, he often blows trivia waaaay out of proportion, such that a whole thread can be devoted to nothing else.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Breaking news 12 shot in New Orleans Mothers Day Parade.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Piranha Mom – Interesting character sketch. You could be right in that Unitron wants proof of everything, therefore he or she questions everything. Are you a novelist or short story writer by any chance, because you’re adept at analyzing character. You’ve got a good leg in on a story.

        I did at one time excuse and even defend Unitron’s stuff, thinking he or she was simply interested in adhering to the facts of the case and didn’t like opinion or speculation, but after observing him or her at various sites over a long period of time, I felt like he or she just likes to be difficult and enjoys stirring things up. Not quite a troll – seems to be genuinely interested in the case but likes to push people’s buttons.

        Yup, could be the forgotten middle child.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Two sides –

          Not a novelist, but have been a short story writer – and worked four years as an investigative reporter on local government issues (primarily land use/development), agriculture, military issues and military history.

          An English mother hammers grammar into you until it’s like breathing.

          The Irish genetics provides the wordsmithing.

          The Viking history leads you into battle.

          Death will draw the curtain.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Great heritage! Write on!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Looks like the techies over at Whonoze blog have reached a consensus that gz’s phone had gps and was more likely than not, running gps enabled apps. It is also more likely than not that Sean noticed that gz was running/following Trayvon because of gps data and not because of the sounds being generated, although that may have contributed.

          Since Trayvon uses text and probably played games on his phone there would definitely be location data in any game app. for some reason they almost all include gps data sent back to their servers. My guess is that gamers have an eye towards somehow creating mega games with millions of users across the country and around the world with the ability to locate ones nearest each other to add another dimension to the game, but they never get around to writing the dream code needed.

      • aussie says:

        So it’s irritated some of you to be challenged about over-the-top fanciful scenarios? outbursts of blind hate? being nudged back onto the straight and narrow? warned not to turn into what the other side is?

        And now another batch of fanciful imaginings about the life story of someone you know nothing about?

        He’s still out there challenging the other side. Everyone here seems to have given up on that and withdrawn to the safe cocoon of being amongst the like0minded.

        Maybe what upset some here was being challenged “when we’re on the right side”. He’s saying, being morally right doesn’t justify being factually wrong.

        What’s right about inventing stories about someone behind his back, just because he irritated you by being literal instead of emotional?

        • Xena says:


          He’s still out there challenging the other side. Everyone here seems to have given up on that and withdrawn to the safe cocoon of being amongst the like0minded.

          Speaking for myself. I have no interest in challenging Zidiot conspiracy theories that have nothing whatsoever to do with proving or disproving that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense.

          Maybe what upset some here was being challenged “when we’re on the right side”. He’s saying, being morally right doesn’t justify being factually wrong.

          Tell you what, why not correct Zidiots when they mock the death of Trayvon and talk about digging him up and shooting him again, or emptying the gun in his head had it been them? Why not correct Zidiots to take the high ground when they talk in Whigger, mocking attorney Crump? When you read them calling Sybrina a welfare queen who blackmailed the HOA and hit the “colored lottery,” tell them to take the moral high ground.

          I can’t say that always agree with some of the joking and mocking that takes place here, but I keep my mouth shut about it because, not only do I not expect for everyone here to be passive, but I also understand there is a Zidiot agenda to stop all comments that do not present GZ and his family in a good light.

          What’s right about inventing stories about someone behind his back, just because he irritated you by being literal instead of emotional?

          He’s talking about Leatherman behind his back and in response, getting invented stories.

        • cielo62 says:

          aussie~ it’s the fact that s/he did it to derail honest discussion. IF all that nitpicking had been directed solely at the evidence and NOT at fellow bloggers, I’ve no doubt s/he would be here today.

        • LeaNder says:

          I have the almost spontaneous response by now confronted with purely negative talk about someone not present and thus unable to him/herself, that I revert to talking about myself.

          It too irritates a lot of people, I noticed. Makes them feel I am egocentric sometimes.

          But at one point in my life I made a decision, if I am not prepared to tell the person herself what I think about him, I should maybe reflect more deeply what my problems with her are.

        • LeaNder says:

          I have the almost spontaneous response by now confronted with purely negative talk about someone not present and thus unable to him/herself, that I revert to talking about myself.

          It too irritates a lot of people, I noticed. Makes them feel I am egocentric sometimes.

          But at one point in my life I made a decision, if I am not prepared to tell the person herself what I think about him, I should maybe reflect more deeply what my problems with her are.

        • LeaNder says:

          aussie, I once noticed an aussie over at the CTH, but she did not sound at all like you. If I remember she had a link to Australia and a real or linked identiy.

          I am sometimes irritated, are you never? Irritation denotes something I seem to not be able to completely grasp. Like unitron’s obsession with media manipulation which is also one of the central themes in the pro-Fogen camp. Maybe that”s why it irritated me in his case, at the same time he did not fit into that camp.

        • parrot says:

          @ aussie

          You wrote in response to a post by Colin Black on May 12, 2013 at 7:42 am:

          “No, Colin, the truck was still up there around the bend in TTL, the cops found it when checking tags in the area, remember? This was a bit after 8 p.m. it was only moved later.”

          This is constructive information offered intelligently and respectfully. Moreover, it’s geared to promote a better understanding of an issue.

          There’s a difference between an arrogant and sarcastic post intended to humiliate another poster and derail the discussion, and a post like the one you wrote here to Colin.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Ah, we forgive little mistakes and find gentle ways to correct such things. He “hovers” over and “circles” little inconsequential errors like a vulture waiting for carrion to happen. Blows trivial error out of proportion destroying the central purpose of the thread and moving people away from considering the theory offered.

          “Way off based” theories are offered, because they are attempts to make sense of information and data that doesn’t make any sense. We do a good job of correcting ourselves on our own. We don’t believe half of what we’re saying if it’s not something that we’ve come to agree is based on settled evidence and fact. Otherwise it’s all tentative.

          We let each other talk, not because everything they say is right, but because they may have some wheat in the chaff. We’ll take the wheat, add to it or store it and leave the chaff. It’s a process, we don’t need a self aggrandizing “fact checker” stirring the pot.

          We go overboard sometimes out of frustration, but at least we know we’re doing it. you don’t find people here defending indefensible positions.

          Finally this is, after all a blog, not a court room. So there is a social component that must come in.

      • LeaNder says:

        Piranha, interesting little background sketch, although being pretty old, born in 1950, I somehow wonder if there are still many family’s with that amount of kids around. My core family already had a comparatively high number of kids, four to be precise – 49m/50f/58f/62f. Incidentally my favorite number.

        One of my sisters once did a family constellation, feels a slightly esoteric approach to me. No idea if you ever heard about it, not uninteresting mind you.

        As I understand my sister, it’s also important where you are in the chronology. Not only middle versus first and last but first, second, third …

        For whatever reason some of your argument reminds me of it.

        In our specific family system, there was not much strife between the kids, probably due to the to the pretty central mother, no strife with the mother either, she was always on our side. Maybe with the exception of my youngest sister all conflicts ultimately were some type of derivative of the core conflict between my parents, who are very, very different. But when my youngest sister was born my parents had one way or another already fought it out, if they ever have, to a certain extend, and she had much more freedom to do things than any of us, or the rigorous rules of my father gave way.

        In a family system, at least in ours, it feels that to a certain extend you have to bear the others burdens too, or your burden shapes the others around you. My own troubles with my father ultimately were the result of how my father treated my one year older brother …

      • LeaNder says:

        When you read them calling Sybrina a welfare queen who blackmailed the HOA and hit the “colored lottery,” tell them to take the moral high ground.

        Good point Xena, makes me very angry too. But I am much less sure that there are no people in that camp who somehow are misguided or not even able to reflect on what they are caught up in.

        Deliberate misinformation artists, simply misguided people, or someone whose fantasy runs wild to built up their own stories. Like this one.

        He’s talking about Leatherman behind his back and in response, getting invented stories.

        I write quite a bit about Jeralyn, and it is basically an attempt to deal with my irritation about her rigid choice and selectiveness. I am still not sure if I completely understand.

        In any case when unitron over at Diwataman’s blog reported a while ago on how and why he was banned over here, he simply recounted the story. He did not smear Fred beyond suggesting that he was mistaken, that it wasn’t his comment. The only other thing seem to remember, was that he pointed out the contradiction between Fred’s demand he use his own name and fauxy’s suggestion to never do this. Had there been smearing beyond this basic critique, it would have changed my mind about him. Believe me.

        I cannot help but it feels like a contradiction to use a specific avatar as stand in for your own web identity and keep it in contexts where you have to change your name since it doesn’t seem to work or others have already taken it, and shifting between different identities. These two options seem to exclude each other for me. I do not follow fauxy’s advise either to use a different name over at the CTH. I will not change my web-identiy according to different groups.

        Admittedly I have never had troubles with people trying to spoof me, so maybe I should refer to more expertise on the topic in this context. Couldn’t spoofing sometimes, obviously not in Fred’s case, but in some some cases, be based on the fact that someone uses the same fictional character or a name one uses too somewhere else?

        My worse net-experience, and ultimately what made me shift to LeaNder was when someone whom I privately contacted concerning his struggle with someone else, to tell him his paranoia was way over the top, published my private email and complete address on his yahoo list. It taught to me to never use my own name again on the web. It was a difficult time jobwise, since I had to explain over and over again what had really happened. And no, that I was no 911 conspiracy theorist.

        I can fully understand people that prefer to use their real names “webwise”, I once did too, but as my experience showed, sometimes you better don’t.

        I still have no problems though to use my private email in exchanges with people I trust, like Fred or Malisha, but I am also much more careful about it. I would never do this with the opposite camp in our case here. But while I at that point stopped using my own name online, I also tried to use the same aka and the same name as long as it works. And that seems to be unitron’s decision. Whatever his own specific reasons may be.

        • Xena says:


          I write quite a bit about Jeralyn, …

          Other than getting a document from Talkleft, I’ve not been to that site. In fact, when you mentioned her name in a comment to me, I had no idea who you were talking about.

          In any case when unitron over at Diwataman’s blog reported a while ago on how and why he was banned over here, he simply recounted the story.

          No. He recounted his history on this blog and completely omitted the comment he posted that resulted in his banning. Sounds to me as though he was carrying a grudge. The responses to his comment were disparaging to Leatherman.

          • LeaNder says:

            Thanks a lot Xena, You are right and I was wrong. You forced me to go back to the comment, where he recounts his subjective “Frederick Leatherman experience”.

            Reminds me that I noticed this both in nomatter_nevermind and in unitron, that once it comes to ABC’s part of the DeeDee interview from my perspective seems to turn slightly irrational.

            But that there is a ear witness is also what makes this case, very, very special. Ask Malisha, I was a bit irritated too that DeeDee did not immediately contact police.

            Thanks again, Xena, your comment was much appreciated. 😉

          • racerrodig says:

            unitron said “As I mentioned, in August I (and others there) started getting “impersonated”, so I discontinued posting there, since I didn’t understand how it was being done and how to deal with it (which I have since learned).

            The professor even expressed regret that I was leaving.”

            The Professor said no such thing. The Professor said he was tired of his bullshit…..He’s thinly disguised, yet full fledged Zidiot.

            Go away…..and stay away.

          • LeaNder says:

            I wondered about that passage too, racer. does not sound very likely. I have noticed Frederick welcoming people back that seem to not have been around for a while, but he doesn’t sound like the person to me that would any way interfere or try to prevent someone from leaving one way or another. Besides would he notice at all? I doubt he can read every comment.

            But I wondered especially about the statement that we serve at some illusionary altar of “Crump halo worship” over here.

            Maybe my instinct concerning his obsession with “media manipulation” was more to the point than my attempts to rationalize matters.

          • racerrodig says:

            When someone would get on trons case about his crap, God forbid you misspell a word, forget a comma, he’d slither away for a few days then come back and continue to act like an asshole.

            I dug up the fact he had several hardcore racist names on HP and he really didn’t like getting busted. Then about a month ago the Professor said “…you’re banned, I’m tired of your bullshit”

            That doesn’t sound anything like what he says on Diwat’s blog.

            In fact, it’s typical Zidiot speak.

          • Xena says:


            Thanks again, Xena, your comment was much appreciated. 😉

            No problem. The head of the Zidiot wasp nest lets his agenda be known. He has had a hard-on for the professor since last year and continues in stealth, getting others to do his dirty work for him.

          • LeaNder says:

            Thanks a lot Xena, You are right and I was wrong. You forced me to go back to the comment, where he recounts his subjective “Frederick Leatherman experience”.

            Reminds me that I noticed this both in nomatter_nevermind and in unitron, that once it comes to ABC’s part of the DeeDee interview from my perspective seems to turn slightly irrational.

            But that there is a ear witness is also what makes this case, very, very special. Ask Malisha, I was a bit irritated too that DeeDee did not immediately contact police.

            Thanks again, Xena, your comment was much appreciated. 😉

          • Xena says:

            @LeaNder. I had a situation once of being on the phone with a friend when hearing someone enter his house an a argument begin. The person sounded brutal and threatening. I didn’t want to hang up and call LE because I wanted to listen in a “just in case” sort of way. IOWs, if anything did happen, I wanted to hear it so I could relate that to LE.

            Fortunately, nothing bad did happen and the person left. Later, it occurred to me that the person lived in another city and county. Calling 911 would not get me connected to LE in his area, not even the County Sheriff.

      • Malisha says:

        OK, I want to weigh in now with a general and a specific comment about how it was between Unitron and [me] [some of us]. I believe Unitron climbed into someone because that person said that Fogen “held [Trayvon] down.” Apparently the physical evidence doesn’t support any actual physical activity on Fogen’s part that would have been described as “holding down” Trayvon Martin before or while shooting him. There was a giant flab over that. I was describing the brouhaha to someone in person (that is, not in writing) and I told her: “I imagined a scene where a concentration camp inmate is waiting for his soup in the line and when he gets up there, the person DISHING out the soup gives him a tiny slosh rather than a hurried ladle full. He asks for more and is denied and as he is pushed away from the caldron he screams, “You didn’t give me my soup!” and he gets corrected by a fellow-inmate (who has a full bowl of soup at the time), who says: “WRONG! She did give you your soup, she just didn’t give you as much as you wanted. But none of us gets as much as we want! Stop lying about the soup line! Do you want to be as bad as those liars who told us we were just being relocated for our own good?”

        Really, what happened with a lot of people who became very upset with Unitron’s comments was that we found we were being casually compared with a gang of disreputable racist logothugs if we didn’t meet some allegedly lofty (but quite supercilious) standards set by someone we didn’t recognize as our judge. I believe, also, that this judge set a double standard. If the Fogen Camp said anything RIGHT they were to be blessed and if we said anything WRONG we were to be condemned. Just didn’t make sense and it got folks’ noses out of joint.

        In the final analysis, Fogen set himself up as God’s emissary on earth, armed himself, and went out to straighten out “bad people” any way he found appropriate. In the case of Trayvon Martin he found it appropriate to KILL HIM. Then, he rode out the ministorm on the assumption that the racist SPD would not hold it against him, and that worked until Trayvon’s family got some help in their quest for justice. He and his became so angry about that turn of events that they spilled vitriol and hatred all over the place and that toxic process got a lot of good folks quite understandably allergic to inappropriate criticism.

        A little bit of inappropriate criticism goes a long way if people are already outraged and indignant about what has been done that is clearly and obviously WRONG. So that’s what I think happened here.

        • LeaNder says:

          Thanks Malisha helpful. So it wasn’t quite that people like me, who only arrived here around last September, made the place take a somehow weird and irrational turn. 😉

          When he returned he maybe wasn’t universally welcome since some still remembered him all too well?

          I wondered about this: I have been here longer than you are type of argument. Peculiar argument really.

          Should I have simply respected Fred’s knowledge on matters, after all I have not seen anyone banned here before. So maybe he does not do this lightly.

          I guess I was never a good judge of character. 😉

        • LeaNder says:

          Thanks Malisha helpful. So it wasn’t quite that people like me, who only arrived here around last September, made the place take a somehow weird and irrational turn. 😉

          When he returned he maybe wasn’t universally welcome since some still remembered him all too well?

          I wondered about this: I have been here longer than you are type of argument. Peculiar argument really.

          Should I have simply respected Fred’s knowledge on matters, after all I have not seen anyone banned here before. So maybe he does not do this lightly.

          I guess I was never a good judge of character. 😉

      • Judy75201 says:

        I was OK with OnlyIAmUnitron, and that he is no longer here does indeed compare to the fogentreehouse.

        I also very much like the people here who very much did not like Unitron.

        • racerrodig says:

          Well…….I do have to say, I busted on him and his Zidiocy quite a bit. In fact I found his sock puppet names on HP, despite his denials.

          He’s so self serving that on Diwat’s blog he says the Professor was sorry to see him go, when in fact the Professor said “…you’re banned, I’m tired of your bullshit”

          You guys and gals here are the best !! Of that, there is no doubt.

        • LeaNder says:

          Judy, I can understand you, well, I notice in spite of all the help offered I still feel slightly uncomfortable. Even admittedly feel slightly guilty of having been drawn into to attack/fight unitron task force. Over the days or month I may have developed a slightly biased view of him. Hard as it is to admit. Was I a member of a witch hunt, meaning attacking the messenger instead of the message?

          There is a difference between attacking people and begging to differ. Basically he simply seems to want people to get the facts straight. Obviously wrong facts can develop dynamics of their own, e.g. someone else picks them up and adds something, then someone else does and in the end they lead into an alternative reality. Not the truth.

          And if I’m confessing, why not admit that my earliest obsession with the case was exactly Fogen’s possible alternative reality. Could it be that GZ’s actions are ultimately intrinsically connected to the fact that he acted out of such an alternative reality. A reality he created himself, the delusion Trayvon was e.g. the second guy observed at his neighbors house and that he would probably kill him to just avoid being checked out by police to get away. Or the delusion he could show he was finally the successful NW captain?

          That scenario is frightening enough for me, I do not need to add any extras making Fogen more evil. And strictly, to prevent this from ever happening again, you somehow would need to understand what exactly happened, or society should.

        • LeaNder says:

          Judy, I can understand you, well, I notice in spite of all the help offered I still feel slightly uncomfortable. Even admittedly feel slightly guilty of having been drawn into to attack/fight unitron task force. Over the days or month I may have developed a slightly biased view of him. Hard as it is to admit. Was I a member of a witch hunt, meaning attacking the messenger instead of the message?

          There is a difference between attacking people and begging to differ. Basically he simply seems to want people to get the facts straight. Obviously wrong facts can develop dynamics of their own, e.g. someone else picks them up and adds something, then someone else does and in the end they lead into an alternative reality. Not the truth.

          And if I’m confessing, why not admit that my earliest obsession with the case was exactly Fogen’s possible alternative reality. Could it be that GZ’s actions are ultimately intrinsically connected to the fact that he acted out of such an alternative reality. A reality he created himself, the delusion Trayvon was e.g. the second guy observed at his neighbors house and that he would probably kill him to just avoid being checked out by police to get away. Or the delusion he could show he was finally the successful NW captain?

          That scenario is frightening enough for me, I do not need to add any extras making Fogen more evil. And strictly, to prevent this from ever happening again, you somehow would need to understand what exactly happened, or society should.

      • Malisha says:

        @Racerrodig, technically, Unitron was not making it up at all when he claimed that Professor welcomed him back to the blog and thanked him for returning. That was way earlier than Professor banning him with a one-line comment. Probably several months.

        My memory of it is like this: Unitron got someone riled up with something that I think implied that another commenter here was racist against Hispanics or something, and there ensued both a spreading series of angry comments directed at Unitron AND the speculation that he was a troll. At that very time someone came into the blog who was NOT (apparently) Unitron and drew some fire. I can’t remember how. Then Unitron insisted it was not him and THEN Professor did actually weigh in, telling us all that UNITRON WAS NOT A TROLL and was rather a respected member of our community. I remember being very aware of that when, later, I took issue with Unitron for jumping on someone ELSE for making a technical forensic error (saying Fogen “pinned down” Trayvon when he had not actually done so, as far as the physics of the situation is known).

        AFTER all this took place, there were several go-rounds between Unitron and others for one or another act of what seemed to be caustic, abrasive, correctional lectures Unitron would deliver. I almost thought of it as an interpersonal quirk on his/her part more than an act of trolling. S/he would judge us very harshly and even spank us by comparing us to Fogenites.

        THEN he said something directly fronting off Professor and BOOM, got banned with a surgical slice. That’s how I remember it. So I think s/he was essentially correct in recalling a previous time when Professor was very supportive and welcoming.

        Professor’s patience just wore thin, I guess. But Unitron had a way of putting wear and tear on the axle… 🙄

        • racerrodig says:

          i remember it fairly well. The point is that Tron is not impartial and would belabor every detail to the point of being ridiculous and he had no sense of humor and badgered those who did.

          Water under the bridge.

  51. colin black says:

    Xena says:

    May 11, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    @racerrodig. And that call or text from Osterman describing Trayvon to GZ. GZ didn’t even know the color of Trayvon’s pants. He could see dark grey in the dark, but not light tan???? Sheesh!

    You an I know foggagge isnt interested in light tans.
    Its only dark tans that get his .
    UP TO NO GOOD ANTENIE twitching.
    After all he had quite a fetching light tan to his own complexion when he murdered TRAYVON.
    Since then he has a developed a sickly paler pallor but lack of natural light can do that…

    • Xena says:

      LOL@Colin Black.
      Yeah. GZ doesn’t see light tan Blacks unless they’re Afro-Peruvian.

    • racerrodig says:

      You’re absolutely right…..he does look a bit pale. Just imagine his pallor in about 6 weeks or so.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        GZ didn’t even know the color of Trayvon’s pants. He could see dark grey in the dark, but not light tan????

        But other witnesses saw a black hoodie, not grey. So, if zee can’t see the most obvious color, he’s got to be getting a description from somewhere.

        Now the master revisable timeline shows that by the time gz claims to have picked up Trayvon at the mail kiosk, it would have been well into nautical twilight, so not much light at all from the sky due to overcast conditions. My guess is that the last good chance for a good look at Trayvon’s hoodie would have been at the 711 where good store lighting was available even in the doorway. And, of course, the 3 Stooges get close enough to Trayvon to get a very detailed picture.
        But they probably forget what color pants Trayvon is wearing, by the time they get a chance to call it in to gz.

        (every time I see a picture of Trayvon it makes me more and more angry at gz).

        But, no way the foggenfoole did this thing alone. foggen isn’t that type of guy, he needs his support group, because with drugs and alcohol providing his initiative and his gun providing his courage, without support he can’t keep himself pointed in the right direction.

        He almost lost Trayvon by leaving home late, then he almost lost him again when he ran. Tanked up and drugged gz did stand a chance on his own.

        • Xena says:

          @Lonnie Starr

          But, no way the foggenfoole did this thing alone.

          Can’t argue with you about that. There just seems to have been another plan involving retaining a stranger because — I keep saying that GZ had a reason to abandon his home right after killing Trayvon, because killing was not part of the original plan. Whomever GZ was running and hiding from is still alive and well.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yeah, but I’m having a problem with another conundrum that seems to be there. Osterman’s vehicle doesn’t appear in the scene. This, even though he claims to have parked it near Shellie’s car, after “drafting” in behind her, after she “swiped her card to get in the rear gate”.

            Okay, it’s unlikely in the extreme that MO would arrive right behind Shellie at the back gate, after the front gate is blocked. And she’d “swipe a card” to get in, when there is no card to swipe. Somewhere it’s said that MO has a key to gz’s house, I sincerely doubt he’d have a key and no code. So, it looks like, since he’s been to RATL before on many occasions and has used the key pad to code in, he knew he was making up a false story, that would make it appear that he was not knowledgeable about the systems. Bad move MO, you are a LEO so you know and observe better than most.

            In fact, as a professional observer, MO’s claim to not know the gate system, and to have parked near Shellie’s car and not be found there, is distressing in the extreme.

            It looks like MO may have parked his car at the MI bank and had Shellie pick him up there. If that is so, then MO knows more than he’s letting on, and he may even be an accessory himself, which would explain him wanting the police to not find gz’s truck. Of course, they’d want to be cautious about when to move the truck.

            But if MO’s vehicle can’t be located, no one saw it etc., then there’s a good chance that MO didn’t drive in. That is extremely suspicious, if so.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            But if MO’s vehicle can’t be located, no one saw it etc., then there’s a good chance that MO didn’t drive in. That is extremely suspicious, if so.

            My thoughts are that Osterman drove to GZ’s house when leaving the bank, gave GZ Trayvon’s general description, then he and ShelLIE parked at the clubhouse, and drove off like bats out of hell after the gunshot.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena –

            Re: “My thoughts are that Osterman drove to GZ’s house when leaving the bank, gave GZ Trayvon’s general description, then he and ShelLIE parked at the clubhouse, and drove off like bats out of hell after the gunshot.”

            Concur 1,000%, Xena. Osterman delvered the money he withdrew from the bank that he said he was lending the Zimmermans, then tipped off wannabe cop Fogen – who dashed off it hot pursuit when Osterman told him a black dude was walking through the project.

          • racerrodig says:

            I still say all 3 of them were on the hunt. Phone records. I posted several times the possible sequence of calls and I’ll stick by them. I believe we will listen in stunned disbelief at who was in touch with who and what the GPS shows.

            I firmly believe the reason SheLie bolted from the deposition and had O’ Mara use the absolute lie that she was not on the witness list is becasue the questions were showing several things that the prosecution was not bound to disclose…..yet should have been disclosed by the Fogenites.

            It’s getting hotter by the minute in Fogenville……this is just the beginning. As Corey said…….(paraphrase) “You ain’t seen nothing yet”

        • racerrodig says:

          You got it…….homie. He’d never do this on a whim by himself, although I believe he was out to use his gun on someone at some point in time. I believe he has that typical “It’s no good if I never use it” attitude.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            If Taaffe could tell that gz was close to or ready to go over the edge, then for sure MO knew it as well. My guess is that would be the reason that he decided to leave his vehicle at the MI bank, once he knew gz was out hunting, or that he was going to send gz out hunting. Then he’d call for Shellie to come pick him up at the bank. MI bank is barely 500 feet away, he could walk it if need be.

          • racerrodig says:

            It’s certainly possible he left his car at the bank, and I’d bet they all knew Fogen was about to blow, but I think they looked at it as a good thing.

  52. ay2z says:

    Don West has spent laborious hours and days, challenging minute details of the first recording of Dee Dee by Crump to imply that there’s things missing, deletions, redactions or whatever.

    Can he do the same to imply his client’s NEN call has some missing time, well, a lot of missing time so that it will better fit client’s story?

    Missing time that would include all those things the defendant claimed he said, and claimed the operator said to him, that were never heard on the call?

    Can they say that in opening, like Baez did in his opening, and then never back it up but let the jury hear it and consider it (the anthony jury considered what they heard the lawyer say in opening, even with admonishment by the judge, they considered it),

    Will Bernie be proactive on this?

    • Xena says:

      @ay2z. You know how racerrodig says “phone records”? Well, the defense recently requested whatever phone records the prosecution has for ShelLIE. So, I was thinking that the deposition was going along okay until questions were asked based on her phone records, and O’Mara then had a sissy fit.

      Since ShelLIE refused to answer on the grounds it might incriminate her, then the questions must have related to her whereabouts and knowledge on the evening of 2/26/12. What did she possibly do or know about GZ killing Trayvon that could incriminate her? Trial can’t get here fast enough!

      • Nef05 says:

        I agree. Racer’s been talking about the phone records since last summer. With his track record and various “friends”, I NEVER discount what he says.

        • Xena says:

          @Nef05. After the defense requested Shellie’s phone records from the State, the defense added her to its witness list. They played right into the prosecutor’s hands. How else would the State know of her knowledge that they set forth in the motion? Phone records. Thank you racerrodig!

          • racerrodig says:

            My Pleasure….But you guys and gals are the best. There is no doubt that electronic technology will be the final nail. Damn good thing Fogen had his phone with him, full battery to be sure while out on the hunt and such.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. And that call or text from Osterman describing Trayvon to GZ. GZ didn’t even know the color of Trayvon’s pants. He could see dark grey in the dark, but not light tan???? Sheesh!

          • racerrodig says:

            Yeah, what was up with that. There is a video I’ll have to find that is about a burglars profile and the only thing Trayvon had in common with a burglar is, wait…….let me think..Oh, yeah……nothing.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. It was Serino who told GZ that burglars wear all black. Trayvon’s pants were tan and his shoes white, should have automatically ruled him out as being suspicious of burglary. I also get the impression that Serino told GZ that to let him know that he wasn’t qualified to profile anyone.

          • racerrodig says:

            Must be me, but isn’t wearing a non color matching outfit suspicious in and of itself ?

          • Xena says:


            Must be me, but isn’t wearing a non color matching outfit suspicious in and of itself ?

            You mean, like the one GZ has been wearing to court since he gained 100 pounds? 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Very astute of you to notice that….

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. One would think that with all of Junior’s media appearances, he would have thought about his brother and bought him a new suit in his current size.

          • racerrodig says:

            Omar the tent maker is on vacation until June 10th….He shit out of luck.

      • racerrodig says:

        “What did she possibly do or know about GZ killing Trayvon that could incriminate her?”

        Let me step out onto my “Positive Limb” here and say Eyewitness maybe ??

        • Xena says:


          Let me step out onto my “Positive Limb” here and say Eyewitness maybe ??

          Trent Sawyer has a video using the clubhouse videos where he points out a car driving away like a bat out of hell just after the gunshot. Could have been ShelLIE and/or Osterman.

          I keep thinking that the phone records contain some evidence that GZ got his head boo-boo’s before 2/26/12. Why would one of the EMTs write in the report that they were caused by a thrown object?

          • racerrodig says:

            The more we see as time goes by and apply logic, the more one is convinced there is far more going on here. The blood was clotting already ?? I believe she & Osteridiot were witnesses. I also believe one of them “herded” Trayvon back to Fogen.

          • Xena says:


            The blood was clotting already ??

            The blood on GZ’s head was dry when the EMTs arrived. They used peroxide to clean his head, but water to clean the blood off his hands. Go figure, uh?

            I believe she & Osteridiot were witnesses. I also believe one of them “herded” Trayvon back to Fogen.

            Taking DeeDee’s statement into consideration, I don’t believe that anyone physically appeared on foot other than GZ. There might have been a vehicle on TTL at the end of the T which caused Trayvon to hesitate walking to the end to turn the corner to get to the front of the house.

          • racerrodig says:

            As we know, anything is possible but I believe one of them got ahead of Trayvon on the other side of one of the row of houses then came back onto the dog walk at the end where Trayvon lived. Trayvon may have stopped so as not to noticed then saw someone coming at him. Fogen may have gotten past him and one of the others were at the “T” in question and gave Fogen time to com e back toward the T.

            Bottom line……we’ll never know until trial if ever.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Ah ha!!! Now I’ve got it. The officer assigned to check plates came around RVC from north to south, then turned down TTL, doing interviews as he went, which accounts for the long time between him locating Shellie’s car and then coming up with GZ truck.

            But, I note that he get’s to GZ’s truck first, before he gets to the one that is unidentified because the owner has an unlisted plate. That’s the HOA president who always leaves his truck parked illegally on the street.

            So now when the NEN call report says that the nearest intersection is Long Oak Way. which I asserted meant that the system gps was responsible for filling that box. Some one suggested that the system might just have filled that box, by picking up the known address of the cell phone caller, already in the system.

            NO WAY JOSE!!! Why? Because if that was stored data about the callers home address, the “nearest intersection box” would still say Live Oak Way, but here’s the story killer… The callers address would not say TTL as the call sheet reflects is where the call is coming in from.

            So, putting it together goes something like this. GZ drives by with his flashlight and spooks all hell out of Trayvon, then goes and parks way south on TTL near the intersection of Long Oak Way before starting his NEN call from there. He can’t see Trayvon at all, so he’s reading a description that someone is texting to Shellie’s phone.
            Once Trayvon goes into the cut through where GZ can no longer see him, he’s got to hurry up and get out of the car so he can be in position to catch him. So “he’s running” is the line to cover. He get’s out of the truck and runs over to the dog path, but he doesn’t see Trayvon, because Trayvon is coming up close to the buildings in the shadows. GZ goes over to RVC and Trayvon, thinking he’s lost him, comes out and starts walking quickly home.

            Meanwhile gz doesn’t see Trayvon on RVC so he starts back and spots Trayvon walking on the dog walk. gz sprints out of the darkness and chases Trayvon back north. After all, Trayvon isn’t going to go near or enter his house with crazy guy following. So he runs back north towards a house with lights on out back. But he gets caught before he can reach the house to knock, so he pleads with his attacker “Why are you following me for?”

            The only lawful answer to this question is: “I’m George Zimmerman head of the neighborhood watch, I haven’t seen you around here before!” But GZ does not say this, his response instead is an illegal, aggressive and threatening: “What are you doing around here?” At some point, instead of answering Trayvon’s question, or doing anything to de escalate hostilities, gz grabs Trayvon by the clothing, holds him tightly, draws his weapon and aims and fires, killing the terrorized child.

            Then gz begins formulating the bogus story of being faced with a deadly attack by a half crazed child with no weapons or training but who, he tells us, was murderously efficient and lethal.

            After weeks of hard hitting basic training, the U.S. Military is unable to turn soldiers into icy cold hearted killers. gz believes that it happens to “mama’s boys” overnight if they’re black, I guess. Uncle Sam would really appreciate someone sharing this secret with him.

          • racerrodig says:

            Some people just have black hearts, Fogen being one of them.

      • Jun says:

        I do not know the questions but since it relates to Fogenhats The Third, I would agree with Racer and have a good guess the questions relate to phone records and the murder, considering she is afraid of incrimination, she prolly is involved because there’s something on the phone records and there is also GPS on Fogen’s phone

        It is also weird that Fogen’s blood had already dried, considering it was raining that night, which begs the question, of whether or not Fogen showed up to the crime scene with premade injuries, as it would be hard to dry in hard rain and the Zidiots are trying to drive home the rain wash claims

        Funny how they claim that dna transfer can only wash off where it would exonerate Fogen but there is dna all over Fogen’s clothes and on Trayvon’s shirt at the bottom of it, where Fogen smeared blood on it

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. About that blood, on the photo taken by Jon of the back of GZ’s head, GZ is holding a phone to his ear. On the photo taken by Wagner of GZ’s face, he has blood on his top lip. Wonder if FDLE tested GZ’s phone for blood? If he wasn’t bleeding to get blood on the phone when Jon took the photo, I would want it asked how he suddenly started bleeding after Wagner arrived.

          Also, picking someone’s head up and slamming it down, in addition to placing hands over the nose and mouth, is going to result in DNA and/or blood under the fingernails. I don’t know how the State is going to argue GZ’s injuries, since the forensics sure support that Trayvon did not touch GZ.

          About that rain — it didn’t wash blood off Trayvon’s one hand. Looks like bigotvoyants believe that rain discriminates too.

      • LeaNder says:


        GZ didn’t even know the color of Trayvon’s pants. He could see dark grey in the dark, but not light tan???? Sheesh!

        I am with you concerning the ability to differentiate between lighter and darker colors in the darkness.

        But there is something else I keep wondering about. How would the respective colors of the clothes respond to the specific little artificial light around. Apart from the fact that witness #6 could have added colors from his later observations of the surrender scene.

        I once painted with artificial light and it turned out to be a disaster in daylight. After that experience I immediately bought myself special daylight bulbs.


        There is a video I’ll have to find that is about a burglars profile and the only thing Trayvon had in common with a burglar is, wait…….let me think..Oh, yeah……nothing.

        Absolutely, the typical burglar does exactly what Fogen claims, he draws attention by acting suspiciously. Irony alert.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t see how the defense could challenge the NEN call. But then they’ve tried a few outrageous things, haven’t they?

      • Xena says:

        Portions of GZ’s NEN call are in the probable cause affidavit. As BDLR said in court, two judges have already found probable cause. Even if the defense doesn’t want the NEN tape played in court, the relevant portions are already documented in the affidavit. Because of those portions in the affidavit, it is unlikely that Judge Nelson will rule against entry of the NEN recording at trial.

      • pat deadder says:

        Maybe the nen call was enhanced and they can hear Shelley in the car.Maybe fogen didn’t mention the color of the pants because he knew that wasn’t what he wanted to portray to the police.I have always belived Shelley was in the car.She is just as racist as fogen.Cut from the same cloth imho.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Pat Deadder,

          One of Zimmerman’s many verbal slips in this case, when he’s talking about the events that happened when he was in the truck, he starts a statement with “My wife” – then quickly catches himself.

          Others have heard a “prompting voice” on the 311NEN call, saying “Tell them … ” while GZ was still IN the truck. (My microphone is not sensitive enough to pick this up.)

          During the re-creation, GZ says (and I’m paraphrasing here) that the suspicious guy was checking out “who else … ” but again, stops hurriedly and starts a new sentence.

          Zimmerman is such a control freak that if he got a heads up about an unknown black male walking through the neighborhood, he would drag Shellie along because he thought if he left her at home she would be calling him, Osterman, Taaffe or someone. Keeping her with him lets him control her actions

          On the other hand if that was really a shopping trip to Target for the week’s food that GZ said they always prepared Sunday night for the week head, Shellie would be there (with her purse) because if GZ shopped alone, how certain could he be that he brought back the meat or vegetable that Shellie knew how to or wanted to cook?

          “What the hell do I do with brisket???” is likely an argument they had a long time ago.

      • Rachael says:

        I’ve always thought she was in the car with him too.

      • aussie says:

        Believe is not going to cut it. The case rests on evidence. Of which there is plenty for a lot of things, but none for Shellie (or anyone else) having been with him in the truck.

        Is he going to tell the police where the truck is, and not mention she’s in it? is she going to sit there like an idiot and NOT drive it home, when she hears the gunshot/gets the phone call about it? the truck was still there an hour later, so what did she do? get out and walk around and NOBODY SAW HER?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I don’t believe Osterman’s story about when and how he got to the crime scene. The evidence however doesn’t support more than one person in GZ’s truck. Trayvon was able to see that there was a white dude sitting in a car while talking on the phone. There were multiple eyewitnesses that saw most or part of the incident. It was too dark for some details, but all of them agreed there were only 2 people involved.

        Based on what can be seen in the clubhouse videos, it is possible a second car was in the area.

        If you listen to other GZ 911 and nen calls, GZ appears to be convinced they would get away through the back entrance. In previous calls he asked the police to meet him at the back entrance. If GZ was coordinating with another person, I think that person would’ve gone to the back entrance.

  53. Jun says:

    If they allow the on scene juror thing, I feel they should keep an eye on Omara and Fogen because they will try funny business like Hearsay and trying to bias jurors by breaking rules

    If they are to go on scene, the state and the defense should be separated from the jurors and the judge and all cops should be there so that it is a fair hearing

    • Rachael says:

      I seriously doubt they would allow GZ to go along. I could be wrong though. But I would think it is for them to look at just to get some perspective and they don’t need him for that.

      • ay2z says:

        He will insist. Did OJ go with the jurors to the crime scene? Of course, OJ did not admit, as fogen did, to killing.

      • ay2z says:

        How would they stop anyone from going along? Fogen is free on bail, he has friends in the complex (maybe), he could go visit one of them and take a walk. He might even take along his umbrella and set up aparabola mic inside it to hear comments. 😉

      • Rachael says:

        You got a point there but hmmm.

      • Jun says:

        I feel they should allow it, but the jurors, defense lawyers and the state has to all be monitored and watched by everyone and it has to be made public, so that there is no funny business

        The case involves more than just Fogen

        Trayvon, the victim, deserves to be heard in a fair trial too and Americans, like all other people, should honor the dead and respect those who have gone on

  54. colin black says:

    Isnt it the first thing out of a defence attorneys mouth .
    Isnt it true you were offered a deal regarding prosecution on a fellony charge?

    And that by giveing evidence against your husband today you have been promised either a light sentance .
    Or the charges to be dropped compleatly?

  55. colin black says:

    Mind you second thoughts he did have another big stonking cop killer gun on his person when arressted so STRIKE all of the above?

    Who friggin knows with foggagge he seems to be a law un to him self.

    • Trained Observer says:

      So many loose ends to tie up, Colin. Trial will be fascinating. But with never losing sight of the goal: Put Fogen, truly a menace to any community, behind bars for life.

      • Rachael says:

        He is exactly the VERY kind of person you do NOT want with a gun patrolling around your community.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        You said it! And he is exactly the kind of person our legislators need to think about when they insist on making guns available to all and sundry: irresponsible, aggressive, rule-subverting, dominators.

  56. colin black says:

    Trained Observer says:

    May 11, 2013 at 11:35 am

    LeaNder — Not sure what you’re doubting. Obviously he took Mrs. Fogen’s gun and used it to great tragedy whether or not she knew he had it. The curious aspect is why his license wasn’t revoked when hers was after the felony charges, and the only logical assumption is that the state can’t revoke what it never issued. Malisha has brought up an interesting point — whether sealed orders from Virginia might have gummed up the works for him to carry in Florida — and it took Florida a while to find out. That could explain why Fogen had papers to flash to the Sanford PD. Authorization from Florida had later become invalidated, prior to the fatal shooting.

    As for what I’m arguing, …not anything. I merely asked if the penalty at sentencing is in an way traditionallystiffer for shooters who weren’t licensed, as opposed to those who were.

    (Which is really splitting hairs on the emotional front. What grieving family ever took solace in the fact that while their loved one was gunned down — at least the shooter was licensed to carry.??? )

    But whether Fogen was licensed may have made a big difference in the HOA payout, and may be a HUGE difference at trials.

    My two cents for what its worth..

    The momment he Murdered Trayvon the incident was allegedlly under stringent investigation by S P D..
    Wittness interveiwed statements collected reconstructions with the shooter .

    An the weapon ….murder weapon… well as his ccp…was all entered into evidence as part of the investigation.
    Ive heard two versions
    One had permit on his person folded up in his holster?
    Or he handed his ccp into S P D the next day .

    As untill the conclusion of there investigation there not going to let a possable murder roam the streets with the murder weapon.
    Also his ccp rights would be automaticaly suspended untill conclussion of said investigation.

    Thats why there was no need to issue a confiscation or whatever they did with Shellies ccp Revoke?
    Foggagge had already been there done that an bought the TShirt.

    Mind you he can all ways ask for them back after he gets on the stand an straightens this all out.

    • Rachael says:

      “What grieving family ever took solace in the fact that while their loved one was gunned down — at least the shooter was licensed to carry.???”


      • cielo62 says:

        Rachael~ BUT if it adds on years as an aggravating condition, tghen GO FOR IT! He killed a MINOR (plus 10 years). Maybe carrying while unlicensed could add another 10! LWOP + 20 years. Sounds good to me!

      • Rachael says:

        I’m not going to argue about that! Bring it on!!!

  57. Xena says:

    Forgive my change of subject. Each month since about October 2012, Blackbutterfly7 has posted a monthly post for encouragement of Trayvon’s family and friends. This month, we are featuring Sybrina Fulton.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Oh….what a beautiful, moving tribute to Sabrina on the eve of Mother’s Day.

      Sabrina possesses all of that attributes that you pointed out, Xena! You have shined a heartfelt spotlight on Sabrina. I admire her so very much!

      • Rachael says:

        I do too. If that had been my son, I could never carry myself with such dignity, grace and reserve.

      • Xena says:

        @yahtc. There are no words to express Sybrina’s powerful strength and dignity. I send out spiritual hugs to her daily.

      • Shari says:

        I have said it many times. I don’t know how she does it. To hear her child being murdered. To know that he was almost home. There were bystanders and observers who may have been able to offer help and save his life. To see Thugboat treat her precious child like he was simply trash. To this day he has shown no remorse.

        She has been maligned and her love for her child has been called into question. Because she is on TV and politically active? That is American as apple pie, John Walsh anyone? She filed a civil suit, and? Did we call into question the family of Nicole Brown? These proceedings can be used to gather information.

        The family of the victim has been VERY patient and simply wants equal protection under the law for all. They want a trial and I do believe they will respect the verdict. Fogen is not the first high profile defendant and he won’t be the last. If he is found NG he will go the way of Anthony and Simpson.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I believe that somehow, someway Trayvon is still feeling all the love that Sybrina has given him and continues to give him through her strength and dignity dedicated to seeking justice for him.

        • Xena says:

          @yahtc. I believe that. When perfection comes, three things remain; faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. Love never fails.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Shari, everything you have said in the above comment is so true and right on the mark. I know that Sybrina and Tracy along with Jhavaris, have seen the very same comments being posted by rabid racist in this country and, they have definitely got the patience of Job when it comes to how these people have disrespected their son/brother, while taking the side of a murderer.

        My heart really ache for Trayvon as well as for his family because, he/they don’t deserve such disrespect from these people. I have actually seen where some white people have said, that these hate filled bigoted racist’s, make them feel ashamed to be white. there was/is no need for this kind of BS that has been going on in this country because, these people know just as well as we do, that Trayvon wasn’t murdered by this POS in self defense.

        This country IMO did not in any way come together when 9/11 transpired and, there is no need for people to lie about that even taking place because, it didn’t. a child is dead, gone from his family and this world forever just like the 20 child victims of Adam Lanza. but, they have and should have the respect of each and every American citizen and, they also have the respect of those who are not citizens.

        But, why is it that Trayvon Benjamin Martin, should be treated other wise by some in this country? after all he was a human being as well as an American Citizen as well. but, the rabid racist here in the U.S.A. treat him, his family and AA in general as if they are less than animals. my 6 Yr. old grandson told me something yesterday, that really got all over me. he told me that two of his little class mates use the “N” word among some other words.

        I have always said that racial hatred is passed down from generation to generation and, it seems to me that grand parents as well as parents, should strive to make this a better country by leaving the racist past in the past instead of feeding into it by teaching those ways to their offspring. this country will never be rid of racial hatred of AA and, that’s the truth.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Deeply moving. Thank you. We will continue to fight alongside Sybrina, as well.

    • parrot says:

      Very moving, Xena.

    • ay2z says:

      Beautiful, Xena

    • Cercando Luce says:

      She has done the right thing over and over, and is such a lady. May her work carry forth justice.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks, Xena. I posted to my FB..

  58. silk says:

    Cant wait for june 10, I’m tired of gz and his bogus self defense Bullshit! His disgusting bitch of a man brother. And his lying a$$ wife. JUSTICE FOR SLIM !!!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Almost looks as if people are using their facebook page to disqualify themselves so they won’t have to serve.

    • cielo62 says:

      TSTAS- one phrase made me livid upon reading it “a fair trial for both sides”. WHAT “both sides”!? Trayvon is NOT on trial!! What makes people so irredeemably stupid? GZ is the only one o trial! He’s the only one who did something illegal! Just being a young black male, a dead one even, and he’s still “on trial”? Just how SICK is Florida?

      Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Probably they meant the prosecution in general, but yeah, the other implications are annoying. Bad writing.

      • Jun says:

        It’s correct in my opinion that Trayvon should be heard fairly as well, as the case does not revolve around Omara and Fogen

  59. Rachael says:

    I know none of these situations are funny, but I am just laughing so hard. Jon Stewart talking about Nancy Grace:

  60. George Zimmerman Seeks Anonymous Jury

    Lawyers for George Zimmerman today filed a motion asking the jury in his upcoming trial over the shooting death of Trayvon Martin be anonymous. The motion is here.

    It’s pretty unusual for a defendant (as opposed to the prosecution) to ask for an anonymous jury (sometimes called an innominate jury.) Will the state object? In at least one case, that of an outlaw motorcycle gang, the state defended a judge’s discretion to order an innominate jury. (An innominate jury is one in which all information about the jurors is disclosed to the parties, with the exception of the jurors’ names, addresses, and exact place of work. Some courts use the term “innominate,” instead of “anonymous” because anonymous connotes a “clandestine, forbidden, and obscure” jury panel.)

    Among the factors that may warrant an anonymous/innominate jury in Florida is where “extensive publicity that could enhance the possibility that jurors’ names would become public and expose them to intimidation and harassment.” [More…]

    • boyd says:

      For a guy who demanded to know everything about DeeDee , now it’s okay to not reveal information. back and forth with non sense

      so can the average inner city poor person work the system like this? Or Is GZ receiving special treatment.

      • For a guy who demanded to know everything about DeeDee , now it’s okay to not reveal information.

        Very telling, isn’t it? I smell fish and it ain’t Friday!

      • Nef05 says:

        Except his motion allows him and the state full access to the “anonymous” info. No different that when he tried to get DeeDee’s and TM’s family’s personal info.

        He’s not fooling anyone!

    • Jun says:

      I think there should be a middle ground in this case. The jurors should be public so if there is any possible intimidations and harassments, it will be easily seen by the world

      I can only foresee the Fogenites doing the threats considering it has already been shown to be done by them

      • pat deadder says:

        June I don’t understand.If you were called to sit on this jury would you want the cth to know your identity.Or am I misunderstanding this motion.Are you saying omara will try to intimidate them..I’m obviously confused.I think I would feel sorry for anyone serving on this jury.

      • Jun says:

        To be honest, I dont remember why I wrote this

  61. LLMPapa says:

    There’s a map in this one that’s best if watched on full screen.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I never cared much for that song, but this is a great application for it. Keep walkin’ and talkin’ LLM Papa!

      • groans says:

        It sure is a great song for the video! LET the jurors’ boots walk the scene – NOTHING better would assist them in seeing first-hand how the killer’s stories don’t fit within any reasonable, factual timeline!

        Thanks for a terrifically damning new video, LLMPapa!!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yee Haw hahahaha!

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. HA! Way to go O’Mara. LOL!!!
      Outstanding work, as always LLMPapa. Get him! Gethimgethimgethim. Get George Zimmerman.

    • Rachael says:

      Oooooh, good one! thank you

    • ay2z says:

      500 feet in 46 seconds is no big deal, Roger Bannister did 500′ in 22.63 seconds when he broke the record for the 4 minute mile.


      • ay2z says:

        Papa used a more direct analogy of the obese (according to his medical report from the day after killing Trayvon) defendant and his amazing walking speed as compared to a sprinter.

        Damn fast walking any which way you look at it.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for posting this video again, ay2z. It is one of LLMPapa’s best.

      • cielo62 says:

        ay2z~ I knew it! Black Dynamite Slim would have been  an Olympic contender!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Let’s see so Trayvon would have been doing something like 8 minute miles. Hey… Wait just a sec, gz said that Trayvon didn’t look like an athlete out training in the rain, and he’s doing 8 minute miles??? Just what the hell does gz think an athlete should look like?

    • willisnewton says:

      George also marked a map singleton printed out for him that shows he parked near the mail kiosk. But immediately after marking the specific spot where the NEN call recording can be easily sync’ed up to, he changed his mind and related the “Doubled back/ circled my car” false narrative for the first time.

      IMO the easiest and most logical and most corroborated explanation of the actual events is that GZ chased TM with his car causing the teen to run off the roadway and then in between the buildings. GZs lies, contradictions omissions and obfuscations can all be explained by his desire to cover up this action

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      If this video is telling us the truth, and I’m sure it is, then what’s being reported in the NEN call is not contemporary reporting. Thus, he may not have been “here now”, or he may not have been “coming towards me”. He most likely never bothered checking him out and “he’s running” was probably gz getting a signal to get into position. So gz starts running to get where he’s supposed to be.

      He wasn’t a goon or a coon, he was “corn” as Frank Taaffe explains: You plant corn you get corn and Taaffe should know because he’s the kernel which is also known as the nut.

    • SearchingMind says:

      To add to all your wonderful comments, I think that the best thing that can happen to GZ is confused jurors with fussy maps of the crime scene in their heads. What O’Mara is seeking will get him the direct opposite of that.

      As the above two LLMpapa’s videos demonstrate, anyone who places side by side (a) GZ’s NEN call, (b) GZ’ written statement and interview with the police (he hit me once, in the face, I fell down immediately, at the “T”, backwards, etc.), (c) where Trayvon’s body and the shell casing were found, (d) GZ’s video reenactment, (e) GZ’s Hannity interview, etc. and (f) O’Mara’s Motion to have the jurors inspect the crime scene and walk the part Trayvon walked to his death, would be wondering whether O’Mara (a) really understands the facts of the case in which he is the ‘Counsel In Chief’?! Or (b) is willfully leading GZ down to the gallows?

      Did O’Mara even consider that while walking the part Trayvon walked to his death, at least some of the juror’s would be placing either themselves, their own sons or nephews in Trayvon’s shoes and imagining/feeling the sheer terror Trayvon would have felt while being followed in a car, in the dark, by a strange, creepy grown man? Did O’Mara make any a cost-benefit analysis at all before filling that Motion? If yes, what are the possible benefits of that Motion? If no, why file it? I am baffled. Really amazed. Anyways, hoodies up each time the defense shoots itself in the foot.

      • Xena says:


        … would be wondering whether O’Mara (a) really understands the facts of the case in which he is the ‘Counsel In Chief’?! Or (b) is willfully leading GZ down to the gallows?

        I suspect that O’Mara has not looked at the crime scene himself, taking GZ’s story into consideration as he does so. Chances are that O’Mara is taking the double-back theory. Problem is, there is no place for Trayvon to hide down the T and still be able to see GZ coming from RVC, and be able to reach him within several feet.

        I wish prosecutors could show the jury the following. Clearly, if things happened the way GZ says, he would have still been on the phone with dispatch when Trayvon purportedly asked if he had a problem.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Wow what a nice clear loud copy. You can hear all kinds of background noises. gz is slamming on his flashlight like that? I doubt it, the flashlight gave Serino no trouble at all. gz had to be doing something else, or it was someone else with him making all that noise. I’ve put it on my evidence pile where it can be found very easily time and time again.

      • racerrodig says:

        Well said. Part of the reason many follow this is as you say, it could be one of our kids, family or friends that are a victim of being Zimmerized.

        O’ Mara “…..Fogen, can you hold this end of the rope for me?”

        FogenPhoole “…, okay….”

        O’ Mara “……(…then 11, 12, 13 turns than back down the middle and around….”

        FogenPhoole “….um, Mark…..that looks like a hang mans noose?”

        O’ Mara “Yes it is………….why do you ask?”

        “FogenPhoole “….well it, that is…..”

        O’ Mara “Oh and Don needs some help out back with a platform, er, deck he’s building…..can you go help him?”

        I’d say, this is about how good this defense is ….

      • Jun says:

        The crime scene map is fairly simple

        It’s only Omara and Fogen and Robbie The Diva that say it’s a difficult issue

        The defendant, in the heat of the moment, admitted he was by the clubhouse stalking Trayvon, with his words and actions

        The defendant even marked it on the map but then changed the story and location once he figured out that he was about to go down for murder

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well there’s some audio expert reports in now, says that the characteristics of gz’s voice on the NEN call are similar to the voice characteristics of police when they’re hunting down suspects. Not good for gz, looks like he’s toast.

          Also the report cites enough strange voice changes and sounds in the truck you might get the impression that there’s someone else in there with him. At least from reading Dr. Reich’s report.

          He also says that it’s Trayvon’s voice that’s most likely responsible for the screams, and the last word is “stop” and it’s cut off by the gunshot. It is not gz saying “stop” so he’s toast!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I know… Let’s put gz behind the wheel of a truck and send a black kid to the store from Trayvon’s house, then have gz pick him up by the clubhouse and follow him a bit, to see if he gets frightened with the jury watching. Hahaha… I know, I know, but hey if we can just get gz and MOM to believe that it might happen, they’d go nutz.

      • pat deadder says:

        The more I think about fogen’s story the more bazzare it sounds.So he’s saying Trayvon ran.Then he’s trying to make us believe Trayvon saw him walk past the path then somehow Trayvon knew he was coming back so he hid and waited to confront him..But what he didn’t know was Trayvon was on the phone with DeeDee .How any juror or anybody could believe that bs is beyond me.It just infuriates me that he actually thought he could pass this off like everyone is that stupid.Have you ever had aquaintances who are BS’ers and after they leave you just shake your head and say what a bullshitter.I’m sure that happened after fogen walked away from people long before this.

        • racerrodig says:

          Don’t worry, there’s only about 25 Zidiots who believe, or rather, cling to his story. Not even O’ Mara truly buys it anymore.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, one could hardly talk to a man like that for over a year, without him giving away the game. gz is so abysmally stupid, he’d even try to lie to his own lawyers, then when caught, either clam up or tell another lie to cover. It’d be difficult in the extreme to get away with that for as long as a week, forget about a month, so there’s no chance he could do it for a whole year. O’Mara is trying his best to cover the fact that he’s very demoralized. He has no experts because “why waste the money?” He’ll hire an “expert” to talk about some irrelevant material and pretend that he’s on to something, when in fact he’s just killing time.

            Like I said, it’s going to be a very short trial. The defense is cornered by the evidence so they move in any direction at great risk. Putting gz on the stand is the equivalent of throwing in the towel.

            Good post Racer.

  62. Dennis says:

    Frederick, any chance you could do an article on the legalities of when police are allowed to confiscate cameras/cellphones? Thanks.

  63. Lonnie Starr says:

    following, I am so far behind its not funny.

  64. rnewton32 says:

    question to the professor or anyone who may know the answer: MOM mentioned he could bring up a SYG hearing at any point during the trial. Could he do this after the prosecution rests its case? If so does that mean Fogen doesn’t have to testify? Or will he have to testify regardless of when the Prosecution rests their case.

    • SearchingMind says:

      To add to Professor’s analysis:

      In Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 (Fla. 2010), the Supreme Court of Florida held that a defendant claiming immunity pursuant to section 776.032(1), Florida Statutes, must file a motion to dismiss pursuant to Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.190(b) and requiring trial court to address the motion at a pretrial evidentiary hearing.

      In CHESTER LEMAR SCOTT v. STATE (Case No. 5D11-1471.), the Florida 5th DCA (citing Fla. 3d DCA in State v. Tacher, 84 So. 3d 1131, 1136) held that any claims of lack of authority to prosecute /immunity from prosecution must be raised by pretrial motion to dismiss and (citing Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 (Fla. 2010) that if the issue is not timely raised by motion to dismiss, it should be “considered waived”.

      In the present case, Judge Nelson (JN), in accordance with Rule 3.190(c) F.R.C.P., set aside April 22 and April 29 2013 (I am not sure of the dates) for GZ to file an SYG-/Self-defense Immunity Motion and hearing. GZ waived that pre-trial right.

      If GZ motions for immunity from prosecution during trial (after the State’s case in chief), I think JN will rule that the issue is “untimely” raised and therefore “considered waived” and tell O’Mara to present his case. If GZ files the same Motion after the prosecution’s rebuttal case, JN will still deny the motion as untimely and send the case to the jury, IMO. The Professor will chime in with necessary corrections – if need be.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The only remedy O’Mara has, if he doesn’t like Judge Nelson’s decision is to go to the appellate division. There he will discover that the words “pre-trial” means “before trial”, and that since the immunity hearing is a “pre trial” motion, it has to be heard before trial. The court will explain to O’Mara that, since the trial is over, he will need to find a “post trial” remedy to raise and not a “pre trial” one.

        The Appellate court, after reading some of the trial record, may order some remedial law training for O’Mara, before he is allowed to continue to practice. Since he seems to be having a terribly difficult time sorting out the differences between “pre” and “post”. 😀

        • racerrodig says:

          A hahahahahahahahahaha !! We’ve been saying that for some time.

          Immunity from prosecution…..

          Note to Moron O’ Mara…… : Immunity means “Exempt from” as in “Exempt from being prosecuted”

          Look it the fuck up yourself Mark… we have to do everything ??

          (Sorry Lonnie)

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Not at all, O’Mara’s abysmal foolishness is getting to all thinking people. The Appellate Court will tell a beet red faced O’Mara that, they cannot immunize his client from a trial that has already happened, therefore the issue is moot.

            IIRC we did have a judge here in NYC, in a fit of exasperation, ordered an attorney back to law school for remedial training. The lawyer had to go through the motions of enrolling before the order was reversed on appeal, but boy was it an embarrassment.

            In O’Mara’s case I don’t think the order would be reversed.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s hysterical……..was his name “Vinnie” by any chance ??

            In a case I was involved in, the OPCO with 2 capital “M’s” in his name also, coincidence, I think not, was just as bad as O’ Mara. This guy didn’t have a clue. It involved a car that broke the head off of an intake valve at the racer track…..!! This Markie talked his client into thinking there is implied warranty on cars, since he fancies himself a car guy.

            I, a civilian and the expert, owned his stupid ass. It was at a point that the jurors had a pool everyday on how many sidebars there would be before noon, afternoon and total. What a dipshit that guy was.

            His expert didn’t know what cylinder the valve broke off of and I had the lawyer tell him to do this… couldn’t be done….that, it wouldn’t fit, the other thing…..wrong parts….for 3 days.

            Then they screwed up and had 2 different days when the car was towed……that’s a story in itself !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I know what you’re getting at: “My Cousin Vinnie” I saw that film after you suggested it, great pick. I don’t remember the name of the attorney, the news just followed him to harass him, since there was not time to appeal he had to go to the college and register for the course and the media made sure to follow. Imagine a practicing attorney registering for a remedial course. That had to be terribly humiliating. After a couple of days the Appeals court reversed letting him off the hook. We never heard another word about it.

      • Malisha says:

        Lonnie Starr, he is also having a hard time distinguishing between “practicing law” and “carrying on like a damn fool.”

      • groans says:

        I agree. I’ve been beating that drum for quite some time, now.

        It’s clear from the Dennis case + the plain language of Rule 3.190(b) and (c).

        If you’re correct about Scott v. State, it will be great to have 5th DCA precedence too. I haven’t read it yet, but I’m guessing you’re referring to the “corrected” Scott opinion – at the following link?

        Click to access 5D11-3660.op.corr.pdf

      • SearchingMind says:

        Yeah, Groans, you linked the correct case. To summarize:

        • Rule 3.190(b) F.R.C.P. is dependent on Rule 3.190(c) F.R.C.P. for its practical applicability.

        • Dennis v. State: Immunity Motions are pretrial Motions as meant in Rule 3.190(b) F.R.C.P.

        • Scott v. State [relying on Dennis v. State (see footnote 5)] held that all Motions based on Rule 3.190(b) F.R.C.P. must be brought in accordance with in Rule 3.190(c) F.R.C.P. on pain of being considered untimely and thus waived.

      • Jun says:

        Even the appellate court has ruled and has stare decisis that it is a pre trial motion and therefore, is binded by pre-trial rules

        Fogen waived the immunity hearing and that is that

        The rules for criminal procedure and previous court cases, decided by state, supreme, and appellate, have all ruled that it is a pre-trial motion and that there is a time limit

    • Xena says:


      Could he do this after the prosecution rests its case?

      The professor wrote on this previously. Florida case decisions are pretty clear that immunity hearings are pre-trial — not during; not after. GZ has claimed self-defense as an affirmative defense, and he can try to prove that at trial. After the State puts on its case in chief, O’Mara can motion for dismissal, but he has to have a very strong basis for that.

      O’Mara’s argument in the last hearing about what the court “might do” was a baiting tactic. BDLR is smart enough not to take the bait and argue procedure for immunity at motion hearings on other matters.

      • groans says:

        Xena – Just a minor, technical clarification re:

        After the State puts on its case in chief, O’Mara can motion for dismissal….

        Motions for dismissal are PRE-trial motions. After the State puts on its case in chief (and even later), the defense can/would move for a “Judgment of Acquittal,” pursuant to criminal procedure rule 3.380.

        • Xena says:

          @Groans. Thanks for the clarification.

          O’Mara talks out of both ends of his mouth. At times he says he wants a jury to decide, and at other times he says he wants to have an immunity hearing during trial. Those are not the same things decided by the same trier of fact.

    • Nef05 says:

      I agree with SM and Xena on this one. Along with the professor’s eloquent post on the subject – the Florida Supreme Court has case law that says no. I don’t see O’Mara finding a way around it.

      However, that probably won’t prevent him from filing anyway, to show his donors it’s all bias – instead of rule of law.

    • Jun says:

      Omara can bring it up all he wants but at trial, it is known as an affirmative defense, which means, Omara would have to present evidence and it would have to fit Nelson’s standards before she grants any self defense instruction and she could very well deny granting self defense instruction if there is no evidence of self defense

      Omara’s only “evidence” of justification is Fogen’s own testimony and Omara can not present his statements for him as it constitutes hearsay

  65. ay2z says:

    appeal court has the reply to Bruce and Ben’s response, they should have most of the back and fort by now to move this along? .

    05/09/2013 Miscellaneous Motion Petitioner
    05/09/2013 REPLY Petitioner
    05/09/2013 REPLY Petitioner

  66. pat deadder says:

    to crazy1946 I want him to go to prison.Wonder what information they gained from Osterman’s deposition.He’d die for his friend but not lie.I am awe struck at the amount of work involved in preparing for a trial as well and how well organized BDLR seems to be.I do understand what you are saying about his life if he is not convicted but his racist tribe of friends should help him.

    • willisnewton says:

      He’s already lied for his friend, so that part of his declaration of loyalty is moot.

      MO probably knows enough to keep his mouth shut until he is asked a direct question, and scared enough to know to admit things that can be proven otherwise. But he may not know what can be proven otherwise. And he lied in his book all over the place, so who knows what’s he’s told the investigators, or if he’s already “flipped” or not. Many possibilities. Few answers.

    • crazy1946 says:

      pat deadder, I think it is safe to say we all want Fogen to spend the rest of his life in prison, however we don’t have the final say on whether he does or does not! I suspect when the trial is done and over with, no matter which way it turns out, you will find that the racist supporters that have been donating money will suddenly go back into the wood work, never to be seen again! Think about it for just a moment, would any “real” racist actually support or even tolerate a non white fool like Fogen? No if he is not convicted he will live a very isolated life much like a sex offender does, he will not be welcomed into any community and his social interactions will be non existent! Karma will have priority no matter what the outcome of the trial….

      • pat deadder says:

        crazy1946 That makes absolute sense and these racists don’t really give a shit about fogen anyway.They know he’s guilty they are just glad he murdered a God I can’t even type what these hatefilled cowards think.If karma works I hope the same for his supporters.There is something mentally wrong with people who have so much fear and hate towards people who aren’t exactly like them.I wish we all had to walk a mile in the shoes of a different race.My friend just said to me the other day as I was saying I love going across to U.S to eat.She said as soon as she crosses the border she feels the tension.She is black and told me how dense I was when I asked why.And believe me our country could stand a lot of improvement as well.

      • abbyj says:

        Amen, crazy. Life in prison is the goal here, but it’s always good to consider all scenarios. As for his big supporters, they’ll have no use for him any further as their poster boy. They barely have any use for him him now. The faucet has been turned off, except for a trickle, and fogen’s not livin’ so high on the hog off his donors’ dimes anymore.

  67. ay2z says:


    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Hey, you guys, I was just watching #day 37 , I just heard, at just before :38 sec in, fogen says, ” he tried to push me away from him”. I didn’t know if anyone else noticed, I’m behind in my blog reading.

      • Xena says:

        @vickie s. votaw. Are you talking about LLMPapa’s video for day 37 or another video? Because LLMPapa’s video for day 37 ends with GZ’s re-enactment around .28 into the video.

        Anyway, GZ did say something else that Blushedbrown caught.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ah, that chatty chatty has his butt in a bind.

      • ay2z says:

        vickie, he said ‘… I think I tried to push him away from me.”

        This, remember, was after the killer noticed how far the body was from the T, and the farther from the T, the closer he comes to Murder in the Second degree.

        You might find this video interesting. It explains the quandary, and why he abruptly added ‘I think I was trying to push him away’ to his variation on a killing theme, to his repertoire. (Papa’s library is open 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week and it’s always from to watch videos as many times as one likes. Thanks, Papa… what an incredible resource to draw on).

  68. SearchingMind says:

    @ Professor,

    “However, there is one legitimate way to prevent her from taking the 5th and Bernie de la Rionda has the power to do it. Since they both want something from each other, they can play let’s make a deal. For example, he could offer to dismiss the perjury charge, if she agrees to testify truthfully for the prosecution. The feds have written the playbook and all he needs to do is follow it. Here’s the way it works.”

    I think that BDLR does not have to dismiss the perjury charge against Shellie in exchange for her truthful testimony.

    In STATE v. MITRANI 19 So.3d 1065 (2009) (cited up thread), the Florida 5th DCA, citing Kastigar, 406 U.S. at 458-59 and U.S. v. Schwimmer, 882F.2d 22, 25 (2d Cir. 1989), reasoned that “the grant of immunity [under section 914.04 Florida immunity statute], must leave the witness in substantially the same position as if the witness had claimed his privilege in the absence of a grant of immunity”. Since the “use- and derivative use immunity” already offered to Shellie Zimmerman meets this requirement, I think it is enough to overcome the 5th Amendment privilege claim and compel a truthful testimony from her without dismissing/giving up the pending perjury charge.

    Am I mistaken?

    • aussie says:

      That looks like, “tell us how you moved the truck and we promise not to charge you with it”. That leaves her substantially the same position as if she shuts up about moving the truck (ie she’s not charged with being accessory etc). So this immunity gives her no incentive to talk at all. Dropping the perjury charge would be a good incentive. But that’s best not mentioned at this stage. This way the defence thinks she’s not going to talk.

      • willisnewton says:

        The question we don’t know the answer to isn’t just “has shellie made a deal to avoid her pending perjury conviction?” but instead, “has the state OFFERED her a deal yet regarding her impending perjury conviction?” I’m guessing they made her sweat it out for quite a while, and made HER lawyer make the first offer.

        The fact that she bugged out of the deposition may or may not mean she still is loyal to her husband. Could be a ruse; could be she’s pretending to be loyal. Her lawyer was present at the depo, but he’s under ZERO obligation to tell the truth to MOM.

        It’s quite possible the deposition went like this: “Hi Shellie, here’s what we have on you that could be used to name you as accessory to murder. Do everything we say or we’ll charge you will accessory after the fact, more perjury and anything else we can come up with. Don’t worry, we’ll cover for you and give you something you can use to show your husband you are seemingly still loyal to him. After a while you can pretend to storm off and we’ll kick up a fuss about it.”

      • SearchingMind says:

        Exactly, Aussie, you are very sharp. You got it right: “use- and derivative use immunity” is NOT meant as an incentive (or to offer incentive). Its goal is merely to satisfy that the 5th Amendment is not violated.

        I do not thing that these sky hawks (A. Corey, BDLR and their team members) want to throw Shellie any bones.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, LOL any juror with an ounce of common sense, would know that no head wound is EVER dressed with damn knuckle band aids period. they would also hear evidence of how EMS NEVER attempted to dress those small lacerations on his head but, they instead cleaned them with hydrogen peroxide.

        I don’t know what IMBECILE had the LYING MORON put those damn things on his head and of all damn things, on his nose as well. did they not know, that just about everybody knows how a broken nose is treated and, knuckle band aids are not in the equation at all!

        He looked like the damn IDIOT that he really is, walking around with that thing on his nose. he was milking that cameo for everything he could think of doing in order to convince the world, that his nose was broken yet he REFUSED to follow up with an ENT for his (not) broken nose. why hell, he was even able to stand the pressure of sunglasses on his tender broken nose. yea buddy he really played some of the public for IDIOTS just like he is and, they were addled brained enough to buy his wolf tickets. there are some pretty dumb people in this country.

      • ladystclaire says:

        BTW, another thing concerning Fogen’s use of knuckle band aids for his broken nose, A TRUE broken nose has a dressing that is rigid sort of like a splint placed on it by a MD from the ER, Dr’s office or by an ENT (EAR, NOSE AND THROAT) MD which Fogen refused to see, because he knew his nose was not broken and besides, he told Serino that, HE HAD NO PAIN when asked if any pain was present and, he also told Serino that he had no bruising as well.

        Whoever wrote his script of lies for him, should have consulted some medical web sites before helping him look like the dork that we all know he is. the ass wanted to make it look as though the PA put those bandages on him, when he was seen at their office in the AM because he knew his walk through on camera was slated for the evening. this was all done for cause and effect by Fogen and a few other idiots.

      • aussie says:

        Compelled evidence with an immunity has to leave the witness is much the same position as if they’d stuck with taking the 5th. So among other things, if their compelled evidence differs from anything else they said in that case, they CAN NOT be charged with perjury as a result. Which means they can force them to talk, but they have no promise it will be the truth.

        So if they do want the truth, they DO have to give the witness a bone, such as dropping something else they have against her. They only charged her in the first place to have a bargaining chip.

        I think it’s a charade. They do have to ask the judge to try and compel her, as it would look too suspicious to the defence if they didn’t ask. Then hope the judge refuses, so it can be kept under wraps until she’s on the stand.

        That would be a win for her and a win for the prosecution.

        If she is compelled, and tells the truth, that gives away too much to the defence, plus makes her life impossible with GZ until the trial. If she is compelled and lies, that wrecks her credibility for when she does tell the truth on the stand, when it is safe for her to do so.

        • cielo62 says:

          aussie~ while I agree with the majority of your observations, I disagree that she was charged “just” to have a bargaining chip. Her perjury was SO blatant and publically known that they HAD to charge her. Sure, it had the added benefit of being useful, but even if not, they might have let her case extend beyond GZs trial and maybe let her off with probation. But since they have her, they may be looking for a way to make that pay.

  69. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    On another topic:

    I have only heard gz speak about his personal relationship with his father.

    At timestamp 0:11:09 – (6: 29: 45PM) – Zimmerman says: “He (his father) thinks I don’t listen, but I do.”

    This statement follows his childhoold story about picking up “free” stuff at a drug store through his father’s army health insurance. Timestamp 0:09:43 to 0:11:12 –[6:28:20 PM to 6:29:49 PM]

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      only heard gz talk about his personal relationship with his father “ONE TIME”

    • Rachael says:

      The guy administering the test wasn’t particularly impressed with his head “injury.” (16:17)

      • Rachael says:

        And granted, the photography isn’t the clearest, but does this look like a man who was viciously and brutally attacked the night before as the outhouse refuse would have one believe?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        According to the FBI/FDLE summary report of their interview with Mark Osterman (April 26, 2012), Shellie Z put butterfly bandages on George when they arrived at the Ostermans’ house after the first night of police questioning:

        After G.Zimmerman was released xxxx(Osterman) took the Zimmerman’s to his residence. Once they were home, S. Zimmerman treated G. Zimmerman’s injuries with butterfly bandages.

      • Malisha says:

        If the injury to Fogen’s head did not “impress” Erwin, I could help out and give him a head injury that actually IS impressive.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        No ooze visible on bandaids although they’ve been on for hours.

    • Malisha says:

      I can’t STAND seeing those goofy dumbass bockaboo-schmockapoo bandaids on his head! Every time I see a shot of the back of that punk’s head with the bandaids I could barf!

      • Rachael says:

        They are so absolutely ridiculous that honestly, they are a good thing. Aside from the fact that they do offer just a tiny bit of comic relief into a very sad and tragic situation, nobody could look at that and take it seriously. I mean if someone showed a picture of that to a juror asking you if they felt it was evidence of a sever injury, about all they could say as a reasonable person is it is, “no, it is only evidence of a murderous knucklehead.”

        Why on earth would he go out in public like that, to the police station of ALL places, and think he’d be taken seriously?

        What a fricken idiot!!!!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Humor and barfbag aside, the knuckle bandages do illustrante the workings of a strange and probably guilt-inflicted mind. I’m sure this won’t be lost on the jury.

      • Rachael says:

        I think it illustrates histrionic personality disorder on top of his impulse control disorder.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think they came loose a bit in the police station video. They were dancing up and down like butterflies. It looks pathetic.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        If Shellie put them on the evening before, then the PA would have had to lift them off to examine his scratches and then stick them back down. That probably weakened the adhesive.

        Maybe, butterfly bandages will now be labeled “zimmy” bandages by bandaid companies. The companies could make some great commercials as could our in-residence screen writer, Lonnie.

      • Rachael says:

        They were loose to begin with – it isn’t like She’lLie shaved the area around the wounds so that they would have something to stick to, she just slapped them down on top if his head, hair and all.

      • abbyj says:

        Malisha, ROTF!! You mean the “maxi-pad” bandaids that are sticking up a quarter-inch over his scalp like air foils? I still can’t believe he walked around that way. Dumbass is right.

        • racerrodig says:

          The best part is when he’s walking up the stairs at the cop shop, knowing the camera’s rolling and stops, turns his head so the world can gasp and say “……Oh, my F’n God……look at those head injuries” which of course, nobody said, let alone thought.

          Then of course he wore sunglasses to the shop and claims his nose was broken……ever have an injured nose ??

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Whoa, it’s been a long time since I listened to this interview, but it strikes me even more stronglly this time around how bizarre some of Fogen’s chatter is. What in the heck was he thinking to sit and chatter like that, let alone answer questions without and attorney. Yikes!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, Two sides,
        Just look at what he talks about in this short interval:

        Timestamp 3:50 (6:22:26 PM)
        Singleton: How was your day?
        Zimmerman: Not good.
        Singleton: Did you go to school?
        Zimmerman: No, school starts at 6, but
        Singleton: Did you go to work today?
        Zimmerman: I went just to tell the executives, the vice president, what happened. Because, if I would have called my direct supervisor, it would have just started to remill.
        And, um, people from the Neighborhood Watch emailed me, like, links from the Sentinel and [Lesh?] that said that , you know, that somebody was murdered and the suspect was in custody, and I just said, you know, I don’t want them to think I’m still in jail, so I’ll go there and, you know, tell them, and I went to the doctor and my psychologist, and I think the psychologist is when it hit me the hardest.
        Have you ever had to shoot somebody?
        Singleton: No.
        Zimmerman: Good for you. You’re probably stern enough to get the point.
        Singleton: I’m sorry?
        Zimmerman: You’re probably stern enough for it to get the point. You’ve got that authoritative, commanding presence
        Singleton: They can see that I’m all geared up, hey?
        Zimmerman: I think even without it. I wouldn’t question your authority. My wife’s a mess.
        Singleton: Do you have any kids?
        Zimmerman: No. Thank goodness, not yet.
        Singleton: What’s she say? that she was at home and wondered why you couldn’t return?
        Zimmerman: No. The first man who got there, I thought he was a police officer.And, I asked the police officer if I could call my wife, and he said “No” so I asked him to call and tell her. So, she knew within five minutes. The eye witness was kind enough to call. She called my buddy Mark that was there.
        Timestamp – 6: 39PM
        Singleton: Did they do an MRI or anything on you?
        Zimmerman: No. She ask me if I wanted an MRI or a CT scan. She asked why they didn’t do one. And, I said they just brought me….they said they were going to bring me here first and, you know, they washed my head off. And, they felt my nose and then they said they were going to bring me here first and then take me to CFR and I didn’t …..acronyms, I didn’t get it, at the time, but my doctor said if they didn’t do it
        then that I should just be cautious if I start vomiting or get nauseas or any loss of vision or blurriness, but other than that ( ) that it was up to me if I wanted to pay for it. Those things add up quick. So
        Singleton: Do you have insurance?
        Zimmerman: Yeah, I do but it’s like the bargain basement that’s like a $5000 co-pay
        before they pay anything now and then they pay like 50% of whatever your bill is

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        1. Who in NW emailed him? Taaffe or someone else in the HOA NW?
        2. He did go to HIS psychologist.
        3. Shellie was a mess.
        4. GZ admires Singleton’s authority in a longing way.
        5. He presents an interesting reason to show up at his workplace.
        6. He gives a reason for not having an MRI or CAT scan.
        7. He tells that W13 called his wife when the officer said gz was not permitted to.
        8. He says his wife called his “buddy Mark”


      • boyd says:

        yeah, he wasn’t hurt at all. He did not want to pay the fat bill

        The Time when he asked Singleton if she ever shot anyone was chilling. His response was ‘good for you’.. I bet that freaked her out, did me

        At that point I beleived he thought lots of cops shoot people, when most seldomy pull out their weapon.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        YAHTC – Thanks for the refresher!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Oh, hot damn, I am so very impressed. Here’s Fogen chattin’ it up with the EXECUTIVES, you see … oh my, a ViICE PRESIDENT … because reporting to one’s supervisor would just be “a remill” — whatever that’s supposed to mean. The arrogance of this toad is amazing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Trained Observer,
        The other thing I keep remembering is how people came forward in the first days to inform the police of George being a slippery person….a person who slips out of things, gets away with things…..a person who has violated people one way or another.

        We know of his cousin(W9); we know of his co-worker at CarMax; we know of his fellow security worker who witnessed gz’s Jekyll/DrHyde action.

        These people came forward to let the police know that George had hidden sides to himself and chameleon capabilities. They knew the negative side of George that they felt George might be able to hide from the police. These people were courageous to come forward when they did.

      • Rachael says:

        @ boyd:

        “At that point I beleived he thought lots of cops shoot people, when most seldomy pull out their weapon.”

        And this is where I get SO angry about his not having any regrets, wouldn’t do anything differently, God’s plan and all his crap.

        He KILLED someone. He took the LIFE of a living, breathing, human being. He stopped a beating heart.

        Even an officer who shoots and kills someone in the line of duty is placed on administrative leave and advised to have counseling. And they were doing their JOB but it even effects them.

        GZ didn’t kill out of self-defense, he killed out of convenience. But EVEN if it had been self-defense, HOW could he have no regrets about having silenced the scream, stopped the heart, and snuffed the air of another human being?

      • Rachael says:

        @Trained Observer

        ““a remill” — whatever that’s supposed to mean.”

        I think it means the rumor mill

      • Rachael says:

        Yeah – would have just started the rumor mill.

      • looolooo says:

        If nothing else…… Fogen will soon be receiving an upgrade in his healthcare. There, there, Fogen,….. prison isn’t all bad.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I just listened to the part I transcribed again and now know that George said WESH so the above should read:

        And, um, people from the Neighborhood Watch emailed me, like, links from the Sentinel and WESH

    • ladystclaire says:

      I can’t stand the sight or the sound of this LYING MURDERING B*****D! he’s going to get his just wait and see.

    • Lynn says:

      Every time I re-watch, little things I never noticed before become clear. Little things that really bother me.

      For someone who has back problems and claims that the fall less than 24hrs earlier injured him, he seemed to jump up and down out of that chair and around the table like it was no problem. No holding the back, no stretching carefully, no gingerly doing anything! Just like the video of him climbing the stairs on the way into the station (like he owned the place).

      The umbrella on the table got me thinking. Would you get out of your car in the pouring rain to “get an address” for someone who never asked for one or would you drive around the block? According the the weather graph, (about half way down), at the time he got out of his truck was the worst rain of the night.

      Then around 6:23 we get that familiar exhale. It’s oh, so, tedious to make-up, I mean tell these stories to you. That bothers me! Rambling on about school and work and the VP and the rumor mill. All to get to the point that he thought they’d be concerned that he was still in jail. Really? Worried your a$$ was in jail or that YOU MURDERED SOMEONE? That never crossed Fogen’s mind.

      Another familiar exhale….mumbles on about his day…aaannnddd I went to the Doctor…and my Psychologist…and I think the Psychologist was when it hit me hardest. (pause) But what are you gonna do? (pause) Have you ever had to shoot anybody?
      But what are you gonna do?!!!!! I had to turn up my headphones to make sure that was what he said! Yep. You need to add that to the transcript. Unbelievable.

      • racerrodig says:

        “All to get to the point that he thought they’d be concerned that he was still in jail. Really? Worried your a$$ was in jail or that YOU MURDERED SOMEONE? That never crossed Fogen’s mind.”

        Gee…..I wonder what those ex – coworkers think right about now.

        I’m betting they’re thinking “Gee……we’re safe now”

      • type1juve says:

        Only a cold blooded sociopath could be so dismissive about taking a life, no matter the circumstances. All of his vital signs were normal moments after the shooting. That’s very telling to me.

  70. crazy1946 says:

    As I sit here under my rock, I am thinking about the possible outcome of the trial. If one considers all the results that could come from this trial, one might come to the conclusion that a conviction, while important is not the only way justice might actually be served. If Fogen is not convicted, he still will never be a free man, nor will he be allowed to spend a moment as a truly free person. Who will hire this individual to work for them? Who will allow this man to live in their area openly? When you look at the possible results of this trial keep in mind that justice will be served in the way “Karma” dictates! Fogen will receive the justice that he so well deserves one way or the other! It would actually seem that a conviction would be the easiest way out of this for poor little Fogen, when one considers what his life would be like as a “free” individual! Just a few rambling thoughts from the old guy hiding under the rock!

    • Rachael says:

      I agree.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Crazy, I find your post quite soothing, and agree on all points. The concept that Fogen will get his, no matter what seems accurate. (Definitely, knowledge of this in constant reminder form will help focus on trial machinations without going apoplectic.)

      Just as Jodi is allegedly hoping for the DP, Fogen should hope for a manslaughter conviction. That’s his only hope for eventual freedom. Don’t think he’ll get it, though. LWOP for Fogen seems correct for his lack of remorse.

      • diary73 says:

        If GZ is not convicted, he will become extremely wealthy. His supporters will take care of him like never before, he will benefit from books and movies, and he and his brother will become celebrities. There are too many people out there “supporting” him. I am sorry, but the only true justice in this case is a conviction.

        • Xena says:


          If GZ is not convicted, he will become extremely wealthy. His supporters will take care of him like never before…

          If they don’t take care of him now, he might not survive after trial. Man can only live without food for 40 days before the body starts consuming itself.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That strange distance and lack of remorse is the frosting on his justice case.

      • Rachael says:

        Diary, I don’t really see that as much of a benefit. He will never know the kind of freedom he once had and all the money in the world can’t buy it back for him. At most it will only surround him with a much fancier prison having supporters for guards. But it will still be a prison nonetheless. His life will be a special kind of hell whether in prison or not.

      • boyd says:

        If GZ is not convicted it’ll be a mark on Florida that will last years.

        Casey and that creep, two years in 1 state..

        What’s next Ariel Castro getting off because it’s not against the law to stalk teenagers.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree totally. If he walked, I would not necessarily be disappointed because I have faith in karmic law above man’s law. All of us live with it. May he who should be forgotten be transformed one way or another.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I meant agree with Rachael. People could donate to Fogen for kingdom come and he could also write books and make appearances, but I bet these would not be popular. And he’d not be free in any way shape or form. We’ve already seen the karmic pushback toward him.

    • abbyj says:

      @crazy, Fogen’s dog meat, any way you look at it. That line ShelLie gave him over the jailhouse phone about “How wonderful your life will be, once this all blows over,” is now in complete perspective: a total crock. He will be hounded for the rest of his life (and so will she), regardless of whether in the slammer or out on the streets.

      If, by some travesty of justice, Fogen were to be freed, his safest bet would be to try to swim to Peru. Paddling past Great Whites would be far safer than walking around in public in Florida. All I ask is that LLMPapa do the video.

  71. Not Angela Lansbury says:

    I think BDLR wants to know when Fogen left the house that night and whether he was really headed for Target. He may also want to know what was on the truck seat when she drove it home after the murder. Whatever it is, he’s looking for material with which to impeach Fogen on the stand. He has more than enough, but it’d be powerful to have his wife impeaching him directly.

  72. kllypyn says:

    I wish he had mentioned that the people on that site are racists. Maybe he’d act like he has sense and be a normal lawyer.

  73. Leisa says:

    I know I am getting ahead of myself here but, do you think mom wants anonymous jury because he is afraid his Internet thugs would end up getting him in a lot of trouble. Typical of his wanting it both ways. Sorry for just butting in.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I hope someone with more legal knowledge will answer your question, but I think he’s just creating drama for the paying supporters. He includes a lot of stuff from the Conservative Treehouse in his motion. In other words, he’s trolling for dollars. And also taunting the prosecution, who has criticized him in court for taking advice from the people who frequent that blog.

  74. Xena says:

    @Professor. Please check your email.

    • silk says:

      i honestly can’t see shellie turning on gz. she seems To Be brain washed.let’s face it,her husband is a buffoon . not to mention, mom don’t know what he’s doing!

      • rnewton32 says:

        I don’t think she is brainwashed. I think Shellie is just as cold-hearted and evil as Fogen. She seems to be one of those scuzzy type of women that will lay down with a child molestor, even if her own flesh and blood child was the victim. Women like that are pond scum. They will lie for these nasty men. She may have it in her mind that no other man would want her, so she will do anything to keep this POS. The sight of her and Fogen makes me ill. I don’t feel sorry for her at all. I hope she burns in hell too.

        • Deborah says:


          I agree with you. Mrs. Fogen is a cold blooded and cold hearted woman who will lie down with a child murderer, and lie for him as well! I do not feel the least bit sorry for her door-mat A&& one bit! I keep hearing about her “heard life.” Her mom drinks and her dad was in prison? Play me a violin. None of us have had it easy out here in this world. We have had many challenges in our life. I know pts, clients, friends and co-wrokers who come from the most appalling circumstances in life and they made something of their life!

          Instead of turning to a life of crime, they got educated! They didn’t lay up their homes, feeling sorry for themselves. They dedicated their lives to assisting others! This woman has nothing to complain about. Let her sit her fat A&& in prison as she continues to defend her lying husband! Even the monster from Ohio’s daughter has denounced his despicable action!

      • abbyj says:

        @rnewton, Your assessment of ShelLie is right on the money, IMO. She’s a cold, heartless woman without a second thought to the suffering of others. ShelLie has shown that she’d far prefer to smear and condemn a dead kid than to engage in a moment’s circumspection about her murdering husband’s act of treachery.

        It doesn’t feel as if she’ll turn on fogen now. If she goes to prison, she might have second thoughts about him about halfway through her sentence there, but not before. It won’t mean that she’s had any moral epiphany, though, just momentary insight into how she ended up in a real jam. She’s a cold one.

  75. Judy75201 says:

    “The prosecution has the phone logs for the defendant’s calls as well as his text messages and emails. I’m pretty certain they contain devastating evidence.”

    I recognize that I have missed something fundamental or I wouldn’t even be asking this question, and I apologize, but if this is true (and I fervently hope it is), wouldn’t it be a part of discovery and wouldn’t everyone already know it?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      judy says

      I recognize that I have missed something fundamental or I wouldn’t even be asking this question, and I apologize, but if this is true (and I fervently hope it is), wouldn’t it be a part of discovery and wouldn’t everyone already know it?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        dang, hit ‘reply’ too soon.

        most or all of the phone records have been sealed, to the best of my knowledge, judy. there is still an enormous amount of evidence that the public has not seen, in spite of florida’s questionable ‘sunshine’ laws. some of it was considered just too likely to influence potential jurors to be released, which is allowable under their laws if the judge grants and order to ‘seal’ evidence.

    • Xena says:


      … but if this is true (and I fervently hope it is), wouldn’t it be a part of discovery and wouldn’t everyone already know it?

      Early on in the case, (IIRC, when Lester was judge), O’Mara had GZ’s phone records and emails sealed from the public. At GZ’s first bond hearing, BDLR brought up GZ’s emails and text messages as being opposite of his “apology.” so the State does have them.

      • Rachael says:

        And I could have sworn that O’Mara had said something about if they were released, they would be prejudicial against him. I’ll have to see if I can find that, but I know I read it. I think I even posted it before.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. YES!! O’Mara did say they would be prejudicial against GZ — and something about stirring up emotions. I too searched for that statement after reading about it. I don’t think he said it during a press conference but maybe in court.

      • Trained Observer says:

        The opposite, huh? Let me guess … trial will bring out some humdinger pre/post-murder e-mails/text messages from Mr. God’s Plan on how he bagged himself one, and now must put up with nuisance questions from cops. Before the whole thing blows over, of course.

      • Xena says:

        I did find the following, but remember O’Mara making a comment and want to find it.

      • Xena says:

        Just found this article posted June 1, 2012 which said the matter would be in court that day. It may have been the first hearing for a gag order, so we need the video of that hearing if it’s available.

      • Xena says:

        Also see paragraph 8, page 4 of O’Mara’s motion in concurrence with the State’s motion for a protective order.

        Click to access zimmerman_prot_order.pdf

      • Rachael says:

        I remember posting it and Professor even had it in one of his articles – Anyway, I found this, but it isn’t exactly what I was looking for:

        O’Mara wrote that discovery disclosure began May 14 and will continue in the coming weeks.

        “Undersigned counsel is of the reasoned (belief) that the discovery will include certain categories of information which, if disclosed to the media presently, will adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information,” he wrote.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I remember that, Rachael and Xena. I wonder how it will affect the jury when it is revealed in court!?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, OH yea, the old wrinkled one made that statement in court and, isn’t it something how they want Trayvon’s phone torn to shreds for what, I don’t know but, yet he wants Fogen’s phone calls, text messages and emails kept on the down low. this defense team gets dumber by the damn second.

        They are really doing their best to put the victim in this case on trial. I pray that this POS will be the next Jodi Arias to be labeled as a convicted felon, only his will be M2 but, he will be a convicted MURDERER none the less.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I hope the FBI has seen them. They are probably waiting until after the trial to use them in their assessment of GZ.

  76. Dave says:

    I can’t see how the calls would help to prove that the defendant murdered Trayvon.. He’s being tried for murder, not depravity.

    • cielo62 says:

      Dave~ Proving depravity is a part of the legal requirement for Second Degree Murder.

      • bydesign2010 says:

        Thanks for the clarification cielo! I had yet to refresh my browser.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Dave, it depends on which specific call you have in mind – since there are numerous calls involved in this case.

        The 911 tape is essential in establishing who the aggressor is/was. That tape contains (aka BDLR) two voices: (a) the voice of a person interrogating and demanding answers and (b) death screams. The person interrogating and demanding answers cannot at the same time be the person screaming for his life. This effectively rules GZ out as the screamer and shows him (i.e. GZ) “acting very aggressively towards Trayvon” in O’Mara’s own words.

        The 911-tape death screams will also be compared to the voice sample provided by GZ. The result will rule GZ out as the screamer.

        Ear witnesses to the crime will testify that screamer on that tape sounded like “a young boy” thereby excluding GZ as the screamer. (I am consciously omitting identification by Trayvon’s parents which is no less important).

        As Cielo62 said, ‘depravity’ is an element the State must prove. Killing, in GZ’s own words, “this kid” while he either surrendered to- or incapacitated by GZ and was begging for his life, is emblematic of depraved mind.

        The NEN call is also very essential in that it will be used to establish that (a) GZ profiled Trayvon as a criminal and followed him in his car, (b) GZ degraded Trayvon to an effing coon/punk, a**hole minutes before the killing, (c) GZ was determined not to let this effing coon/punk and a**hole get away, (d) Trayvon was fearful of GZ and ran away from him to a place no car can get, (e) GZ got out of his car and followed/pursued Trayvon on foot after “he ran” and admitted as much, (f) GZ ignored advice of the police dispatcher not to follow Trayvon and continued to follow him/“go in the same direction”, (g) the NEN call is fundamentally at odds with the rest of GZ’s statements to the police and in his video reenactments, etc.

    • bydesign2010 says:

      I realize what he is on trial for, however depravity is apart of Murder 2. You have to prove that he had a depraved mind in order to gain a murder 2 conviction.

      • Dave says:

        A depraved mind at the time of the killing is one of the elements of murder 2. Hiding assets after the crime, while illegal and deplorable and indicative of moral rot really don’t do anything to prove the crime with which he is charged. It’s interesting, but I bringing it up at trial would be little more than a distraction from the core issues.

      • boyd says:

        Angela Corey make the right choice. He profiled the kid, chased him ignoring NEN instructions and oh by the way He had a gun as well and he used it. That’s depravity.

        And george’s story is baloney. I do not believe Trayvon hit him at all, or confronted him until Trayvon was forced to defend himself George fell down and broke his crown.

        And All this Trayvon should have run. If he ran then they would have said “see he did something” no screw that I’m walking too.

        And his phone was found on the ground not in his pocket. That tells me he had no intention of attacking anyone. That phone would be tucked away in a pocket so both hands are free.

        And T would have to know that GZ got out of the car and came in his direction, well how does he know that and how would T know GZ was that determined to go after him? GZ assumes T is running for a diffeent reason as he hinted to police that TM was the thief he was looking for last month.

        T made it around the bend away from the street and went back to talking to DeeDee. He had no idea that creep was coming after him.

        I could go all night.

      • bydesign2010 says:

        At what point do actions after a crime become their own crime as opposed to being linked to the original act? If I was to kill someone and in the days afterward spent time attempting to flee or cover up the original killing, would these actions be separate from the original act?

      • boyd says:

        Don’t worry about Dave. Everyone would think it means he did it and he also proved he’s a liar to boot. Where I work no one believes Zimmerman.

        This is a simple case. He’s not a cop, his job is to WATCH. The HOA settled because they acknowledged his job was not to go on the hunt armed, palying cops and robbers They were shocked the fool had a gun. Listen to the HOA guy on police tapes. He was a drugged up loose cannon. His job was only to report. None of his business if they “got away”, that’s police business.

        This fool took an 11th graders life. Throw away the key.

      • boyd says:

        And I’m sick of people thinking they need a gun to protect the Chiinese made junk in their house. There was no reason to jump out of the car armed and chasing.

        Zimmerman premise as he told police until they were sick of hearing it was stopping theirves from taking the valued junk in the 140k condo development. Please no offense, but they have NOTHING worth killing over.

        As Serino said George this is not about a stolen bicycle, this is about a killing. I have kids who walk thru my yard, and sometimes kids break into my car. Houses cost 250-400k around here. So do I get an gun hoping to catch a kid stealing some change out of the ash tray? Hell no.

        And this kid was doing NOTHING. why the gun? why the gun?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I agree with boyd, defendant was drugged up. I actually fear that more and more ordinary citizens are drugged up by prescription, while the states become ever more permissive about allowing ordinary citizens to arm themselves. ADD meds are prescribed to adults on request, especially if they are enrolled in school. These adults are no fun to encounter.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @boyd, this lying fool did indeed take this child’s precious life and, I want him to pay dearly for what he did. I can’t help the way I feel towards this monster and his actions on the night he took the life of an innocent child, not harming anything or anybody. yes indeed, I want him to pay dearly everyday for the rest of his miserable life.

        Trayvon had a lot of living to do, until he had the misfortune of this IMBECILE intruded into his life and his little piece of GOD’S world, which was at that time his own space. what this POS did to Trayvon is absolutely unforgivable and, he and his family continue their murderous assault on Trayvon and his family each and everyday. his brother Robbie the Racist does his dirty work on Twitter and, on any media network in dire straits for good ratings. as for his lying father, he does his dirty work against his son’s innocent child victim on the HP blog site under the name, LetJusticePrevail and a few other names on that blog site. this old man should be ashamed of himself, for stooping to this level in support for his child murdering POS of a son.

        Had LetJusticePrevail allowed Fogen to be responsible for the other criminal acts in his life, we might not be having this discussion and, Trayvon would be looking to his graduation day. instead of him making his son take responsibility for those crimes, he always stepped in and made them go away.

        There have been some on these blog sites, who have said some pretty hurtful things about Trayvon’s parents in reference to their bad parenting of Trayvon, which is not true. these very same bigoted racist need to step back, and take a long look at the Zimmerman’s, and how bad they were in their parenting of Fogen and his siblings. if I had the choice of choosing the parents of the victim and the defendant as parents of mine, I would without a doubt choose Tracy and Sybrina. RIP baby boy and, JFTBM

        • cielo62 says:

          Ladystclaire- as we say, karma is a bitch. That kind of evil rebounds forcefully. Just wait for it. It will happen.

          Sent from my iPod

  77. bydesign2010 says:

    I spoke to Sybrina Fulton today and she want’s to Thank everyone for their support and wanted me to remind everyone about the trial on the 10th, which we all know and just so happens to also be my birthday.

    With that said, Professor I agree that BLDR needs to nail Shellie to the wall. I know we all had discussed spousal privilege at an earlier point and found that the privilege would only apply to conversations in which both parties expected privacy. If Shellie isn’t called as a witness how will this affect the use of the jail house phone calls at trial? Do the calls matter at all in this case or are they only relevant to Shellie’s perjury case? Can BLDR use the calls at trial as a way to show the depravity of Fogen?