Zimmerman: Probable outcome of defense motion for acquittal after prosecution rests case-in-chief

Friday, May 3, 2013

Searching Mind posted a comment in which he asked me to explain what might happen when the defense moves for a judgment of acquittal after the prosecution rests upon completing the presentation of its case-in-chief.

The defense in any criminal case can and should move for a judgment of acquittal, sometimes called a directed verdict of not-guilty, after the prosecution completes its case-in-chief.

Pursuant to Jackson v. Virginia, 443 US 307, 99 S. Ct. 2781, 61 L. Ed. 2d 560 (1979), the rule the judge must apply requires her to assume for the purpose of ruling on the motion that all of the prosecution’s evidence, together with all of the reasonable inferences to be drawn from it, are true. Given that assumption, she must decide whether a rational trier of fact could find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was guilty. In the context of this case, she would have to apply that test to whether the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime of murder in the second degree and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not kill Trayvon Martin in self-defense.

With regard to the murder charge, I think the likely area of dispute will be the sufficiency of the evidence that the defendant’s act of shooting Trayvon evinced extreme indifference to human life (i.e., depraved mind). The answer to that question will depend on whether he shot Trayvon in self-defense.

With regard to self-defense, I believe the dispute will concern whether the defendant reasonably believed himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious injury when he shot and killed Trayvon.

I believe the judge will conclude the evidence was sufficient to convince a rational trier of fact beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant evinced a depraved mind when he shot and killed Trayvon, since I am expecting she will find that the evidence shows that he was not justified in using deadly force because, regardless of the defendant’s claim that Trayvon initiated the confrontation, the defendant’s injuries did not reasonably place him in imminent fear of death or serious injury when he pulled the trigger.

I am not anticipating that the prosecution will have any difficulty satisfying that test. I do not believe that any rational person will dispute that the person who uttered the 40-second terrified shriek for help that ended so precisely with the gunshot that it appeared to have been silenced by it, was not the person who had the gun. If it had been the person with the gun, he would have continued screaming for help after the shot since, according to the defendant, he thought the shot missed. No, I do not believe there is any chance that a rational trier of fact would conclude that the person armed with a gun uttered that shriek or was in any danger whatsoever from that unarmed person when he pulled the trigger.

After Judge Nelson denies the defense motion, the defense will have the option of putting on a case or resting and submitting the case to the jury.

I would not be surprised if the defense rests without calling the defendant or any other witnesses because the prosecution’s case is strong and the defendant so hopelessly compromised himself with a blizzard of conflicting and inconsistent statements such that no jury would believe anything he said.

Notice that I did not mention Dee Dee (W8). I intentionally did not mention her because I have never believed she was a necessary witness, much less the prosecution’s star witness, as the defense and the media have described her.

Her testimony will be cummulative rather than critical. In other words, it will be mere icing on the cake.


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224 Responses to Zimmerman: Probable outcome of defense motion for acquittal after prosecution rests case-in-chief

  1. Stormwatch says:

    pssst.. hey.. Professor Leatherman.. you are phenomenal and I’m so appreciative of you and the other posters here. I am learning so much. God Bless you all.

  2. ay2z says:

    Prof and Crane, thank you for the light housekeeping.

  3. Nef05 says:

    I have a brief moment before heading off to the hospital and I wanted to quickly post a thought i had, before I forget. O’Mara has to file a motion for his “all day evidentiary hearing” this week. According to the Judge’s deadline, I’m not sure how much time BDLR has to respond (I think this will be an issue).

    I believe O’Mara is going to use a pre-trial hearing to get the outhouse’s M-DSPD info on the record, in front of the cameras – like the pictures andthe “MMA style” comments. He can’t do it at trial, BDLR will object on relevance. But, I’m thinking O’Mara is goingto try to do it this way, like he did with “MMA style” at the “mini-trial” second bond hearing and DeeDee “lies” at the hearing where he waived the two weeks reserved for Immunity Hearing. It will be the last evidentiary hearing, and O’Mara’s last chance to spit it out for the cameras in an “official” courtroom, and get it onthe record.

    I further believe that’s why West puffed up and got offended when BDLR called him out on “speaks for itself” strategy from the crackhouse, because he already knew about this. I also believe that the thousand+ pages make it difficult for BDLR to respond in a timely manner (additional delay – which coincidentally benefits the defense? Just a bonus)

    Questions – What are the chances that Judge Nelson would grant such a hearing? Can BDLR’s response go to not having the hearing itslf, without giving O’Mara the opportunity to flourish this nonsense to the camera (in camera perhaps), before it’s deemed irrelevant? Wouldn’t this be a defense *reverse witness 9* play? Can O’Mara schedule a hearing on “evidence” that has not been sent to the prosecution previously? If not, I expect O’Mara to submit a supp. discovery .doc, immediately prior to the motion, in a “tit for tat” dig at the prosecution for all their “discovery violations”.

    I know he hasn’t filed a motion, yet and I could be way off base. But, based on O’Mara’s track record; his use of and pandering to the outhouse for strategy and money; and (imo) his questionable legal ethics, this seems like a far more likely scenario than say, an actual real hearing on actual evidence where some actual legal defense case work is accomplished. He hasn’t tried that route yet, and I just don’t see him starting now… IJS

    • The alleged Miami-Dade coverup of criminal investigations to reduce the number of reported crimes for apparent political reasons is irrelevant to the murder trial. Like I said in the article, it would not matter if Trayvon were Satan himself. He was unarmed, not acting suspiciously, talking to his girlfriend, and minding his own business walking home. The defendant stalked him and he tried to get away from him.

      Whether he committed some burglaries and stole some property in Miami is irrelevant to whether the defendant murdered him.

      I don’t know what the all day evidentiary hearing will be about, but I doubt that it would be about this issue because the applicable law is well settled and an evidentiary hearing would be a waste of time.

      No matter what he proved, the evidence would be irrelevant and inadmissible.

      I think Judge Nelson would refuse to hold a hearing, if that’s what O’Mara and West want to do.

      • Nef05 says:

        I absolutely agree with everything you just posted (and previously). I also hope Judge Nelson would refuse to hear it. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no faith in O’Mara’s decision making and judgement in this matter. He has shown himself willing and able to compromise himself. That said, only time will tell if he is as far gone as I believe he is. Thanks for the thoughful response, Prof.

  4. acemayo says:

    Now let think about TM being top GZ on the bottom, think about
    TM knees, and GZ arms being free, GZ said he move his body
    down to get his head from being over the sidewalk, he had to move
    his body down more than 8 inches to get his head from over the
    sidewalk and for GZ Jacket to come and expose his gun in the
    dark, but that means TM knees would had been 8 inches or more
    closer to GZ arm pit that would have stop him from squeezing TM arm.

  5. acemayo says:

    try this take your hand left or right put that arm under your arm pit
    that is free you can always get your hand free no matter how hard
    you squeeze even if you did this with someone else
    Now GZ said he TM arm lock under his arm pit, remember GZ
    was on the ground on his back. GZ couldn’t get TM arm under
    his arm pit because the ground would let do, forsake of augment
    let say GZ had TM arm lock up, then that arm would had mud and
    grass stains on it, TM finger nails would had grass and mud under
    Also if GZ had TM arm lock up that make TM whole body be
    closer to GZ and off center.

  6. Follow

    May the Fourth be with you 🙂

  7. ay2z says:


    • Jun says:

      ah, the famous Shaolin Tiger Swipes

      I sometimes wonder if the support for Fogen is due to pity, because he’s so bloodclot stupid and at the same time a crazy maniac

  8. Soulcatcher says:

    I’m still trying to figure out how Treyvon was banging his head on the cement and smothering him at the same time. And with his hands all over his face and head, how he managed all that with none of George’s blood, especially since his face was 45% covered in blood.

    George has alot of splaining to do. I don’t think he can pass post it notes to his lawyer and have him read them for him. I hopes someone explains to him there is also no show and tell, so he’ll have to leave his superhero sticker book at home.

  9. looolooo says:

    Thanks Malisha, but neither version sounds remotley plausible.

  10. colin black says:

    Yes he said at the reconstruction vt I shot one time didnt even think Id hit him.

    An he said you got it or you got me .

    I thought he meant I give up I know you have a gun noy.

    I know you have a gun now.?

    But you just had to shoot him because you felt he was reaching for youe gun?

    An next sentance your claiming he had no knowlage of it untill you shot it point blank into his chest.

    Make up your mind an find a story an stick with the same one.On second thoughts he cant becuase he is guilty an unreasonable.

    And you cannot talt reasonably with some one averse to reason.

    • looolooo says:

      Didn’t Fogenmeister ALSO say that Trayvon (discontinued suffocating him) slid his hand down his chest, then stated ” I see you gave a piece/gun……….you’re gonna die tonight”? Or maybe I’m on drugs or sumpem. I don’t know what my deal is. Sumpem’s wrong with me. My brain must be doin’ the “Zimmy Shimmy”.

      • Malisha says:

        I think the story was:

        His head was being banged on sidewalk and he preferred it being banged on grass so he shimmied.

        When he shimmied his jacket came up.

        Trayvon, who was suffocating him and banging his head, saw (really? noticed in the dark while murdering?) his jacket come up and “saw” his “the gun.”

        Trayvon then, true to thug-talk rules, allegedly said: “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker.”

      • colin black says:

        There are sevral versions its hard to kkkeep up.
        He tells LE he felt or thought Trayvon had seen his gun an was reaching for it.

        Acording to Junior his brother told him Trayvon saw the gun an told told AREBUCKLE aka fatty
        …..You have a peice you die tonight….

        An yet another version told by his father an to the Ostermans he actually claimed Trayvon reached for an had his hand on fatty arebuckles gun.
        An I expect we will hear yet another version from Shellie .
        An he told a co worker a mugger attacked him .

        PS Fatty Arebuckle is my new pet name for foggagge because.
        All chairs will buckle under the weight of his girth.

      • LeaNder says:

        I agree there is a huge problem with this part of the narrative.

        What did Trayvon do with his hands after that? Did it freeze midway on its way to the gun. Did Trayvon patiently wait till Fogen pulled it out, carefully avoiding to hit his other hand, aimed and shot. Shouldn’t we at least expect that since his hand was almost halfway there that he at least tried to strike it out of his hand. And all the while he left the other hand on his nose trying to suffocate him? Very, very unlikely scenario.

      • Trained Observer says:

        @Malisha — Trayvon saw the gun and, according to Fogen, this suspicious guy declared “you’re gonna die tonight, motherfucker,” after which Fogen, in full false soprano, broke out in song ♫•*¨*•.¸¸ ¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪
        Tonight, tonight
        It all began tonight
        I saw you and my world went a-sway
        Tonight, tonight
        There’s only yooou tonight
        What you are, what you doooo, what you saaaay …

  11. Judy75201 says:

    The shriek clearly expressed terror and panic–emotions that do not subside instantaneously. There is no possibility that fogen “reasonably” feared for his life.

    • Malisha says:

      And of course the prosecution has reminded us about half a dozen times that there is evidence we have not seen.

    • Jun says:

      For Fogen to not want to have an SYG hearing says a lot about what the lawyers actually know regarding his defense

      That’s all I can say

      Considering all the crap you can pull within the American Judicial system, for him to pass that, says a lot

      I think the worst thing that has happened thus far to Fogen is when they tried to recuse Lester and did and got Nelson

      I think Lester would have given way more leeway even if he felt Fogen was a fucking liar

      What surprised me most was when West took the stand

      Damn, I did not know Bernie could question people so good till then

      I am sure Fogen does not want to go on the stand and be repeatedly battered by Bernie

      Joonyah is gonna be verbally massacred if he takes the stand… no softball interviews in court with Bernie

      • LeaNder says:

        Damn, I did not know Bernie could question people so good till then

        For me it already showed at the first bond hearing, where he only had a very limited window of opportunity. I admittedly never forgot that even during the time over at TalkLeft the argument was that he motions were very, very bad. He no doubt is very, very good in this part of his job. That’s why I think Corey choose him.

        Concerning the argument about his written motions or arguments that were criticized at the time, I doubt many prosecutors would have been prepared to deal with the stuff he had to deal with. In other words prosecutors, who had to face the murky regions between public relations, perception management and law.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yeah, if they’d kept Lester MOM may have even gotten a few dollars from the SP, although I doubt it, but he had a better chance with Lester, and Lester probably would have entertained his multiple request to reconsider, which Nelson just breezes by.

        But hey, MOM is doing such bad lawyering that he’s even turning racists and bigots against his client, hahaha. Now that’s quite a feat wouldn’t you say?

  12. Dennis says:

    Frederick, good emphasis on “when he pulled the trigger”. See, it doesn’t matter if Trayvon really did all of that damage to Fogen’s face or not. When Fogen decided to pull the trigger, there has to have been continuous threat for that to be self-defense. Shooting Trayvon while he is trying to break free and run does not qualify as a continuous threat.

    • acemayo says:

      He pulled the trigger and took time to aim and move his hand
      out of the way, oh I forgot he one of his statement TM slams
      GZ onto the cement more time than he shot him

      • Xena says:

        @acemayo. Yes, GZ did as you have laid out. He also said he “felt” Trayvon saw the gun and ran his hand down his chest for it. But then, he also said that Trayvon only acknowledged the gun after he fired it, and Trayvon purportedly threw up both hands and said, “You got it.”

      • Rachael says:

        He “felt” Trayvon was up to no good. He “felt” Trayvon saw the gun.

        Does that show you how effn crazy GZ is?

        He doesn’t act on what he KNOWS. He acts on what he “feels.”


  13. bettykath says:

    There seems to be a box here that says that there is no life after the trial but consider:

    There has been speculation that the defense is going for a hung jury. Should that happen, could the defense at that time, request an immunity hearing? Since the prosecution didn’t convince 6 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt, is it possible to request a hearing and try to convince a judge the shooting was in self defense, thereby preventing the prosecution from retrying the case and to prevent any civil suit? I believe the standard to prevail at an immunity hearing is less than beyond reasonable doubt. Could this be what MOM has in mind?

    • boar_d_laze says:

      In the case of a “hung jury” or other form of mis-trial, the prosecution must refile the charges and the whole pre-trial process starts as though it never were.

      The standard for an Immunity Hearing is a judicial finding of “preponderance of the evidence.” I don’t believe the trial jury can consider the question of immunity. But I don’t know Florida law well enough to say for sure.

      The standard for (trial) guilt in Florida when a claim of Self Defense is raised is not like most other U.S. jurisdictions. Usually, a defendant must prove his affirmative defense beyond a reasonable doubt; in Florida, since passage of the SYG laws, the prosecution must prove that the defendant was not acting in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

      In the case of “imperfect self-defense” (i.e., the defendant believe he was acting in self defense, but did not meet the standard), I imagine things could get confusing in deliberations. It bears repeating that I don’t know Florida law well enough to say for sure. It also bears mentioning that confusion can lead to a hung jury.


      • bettykath says:

        “In the case of a “hung jury” or other form of mis-trial, the prosecution must refile the charges and the whole pre-trial process starts as though it never were.”

        This is my question. Is it a restart from the beginning in which case an immunity hearing could be held? If the motion were granted, there would be no retrial. If it’s a SYG hearing, there would be immunity from a civil trial as well.

        • After the judge declares a mistrial due to a hung jury, the case proceeds as if there had been no trial. Defendant remains free on bond or in custody as the case may be and the prosecutor gets to decide whether to dismiss, resolve by plea bargain, or retry the case. The speedy trial clock is reset to zero and a new trial date is assigned, if the matter remains unresolved.

          I do not believe the defendant would get an immunity hearing if he asked for one following a hung-jury mistrial because he has already waived his right to an immunity hearing.

          Even if Judge Nelson were to to hold a hearing, I do not believe she would grant him immunity because there is no persuasive evidence of self-defense.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Let me add that I think it’s not only possible but likely that Mr. Zimmerman would see Immunity if he presented a case of self defense (which he almost certainly will), and it the jury hung.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        First, “seek” not “see.”

        Not feeling very well tonight, so forgive me for being confusing.

        The key concept is jurisdiction.

        In the case of a hung jury, I think the prosecution against Mr. Zimmerman would be over (except for some paperwork) as soon as the court declared a mistrial and the judgement was entered; and doubt the judge would retain sufficient post-trial jurisdiction to consider a Motion for Immunity afterwards.

        A “mistrial” isn’t exactly a verdict. It’s not something the jury decides, it’s a result of the jury not being able to come to a decision, and is something a judge declares after the judge is convinced that no amount of continuing deliberation will result in a decision.

        I don’t know if, after learning the jury could not reach a decision, and before the court formally declared a mistrial, whether the defense could make a motion that the court delay its declaration so that the defense could make a Motion for Immunity or not.

        Although I’ve been involved with a few case which required re-charging by the prosecution, and a few other cases which resulted in re-trials, the situation of a motion made immediately prior to a declaration of mis-trial is not one I’ve ever confronted.

        Maybe Professor Leatherman has?


        • I recall two cases I tried that ended in mistrials when the jury could not reach a verdict. I don’t believe I presented a defense in ether case. Although I do not specifically recall moving for a Judgment of Acquittal after the prosecution rested its case-in-chief, I am certain that I would have done it because I always did that to preserve the record.

          I am equally certain that I did not renew the motion when it became clear to me that the jury was having problems reaching a verdict. Having already made that motion and with no new evidence upon which to base a request, I would not have renewed the motion.

          Judges are loathe to take a case away from a jury or to grant a motion for a judgment notwithstanding the verdict if it’s supported by substantial evidence. I doubt there is any chance that Judge Nelson would step in and grant a motion for immunity during the trial, including jury deliberations, regardless of the evidence.

          The reality is she is an elected judge handling a high profile case and she is not going to take this case away from the jury. If she grants a mistrial due to a hung jury, she will let the prosecution decide whether to retry the case. If they decide to retry it, she will retry it.

          Besides, there is no evidence of self-defense, except for some of the defendant’s conflicting and inconsistent statements. In one statement, for example, he even admits to pulling his gun, extending his arm, aiming to avoid shooting his left hand, and pulling the trigger. That does not sound like self-defense.

          I cannot see any judge granting immunity in this case.

      • Rachael says:

        @Lonnie Starr

        “The kind of person GZ needs is not so common,”

        Are you sure? I would like to think so, but my perceptions have changed so much with this case. I used to think the exact same thing, but now I wonder if perhaps it just became to PC to mention anything people might find racist so the talk stopped, but the racism didn’t. And actually, I noticed it long before this trial on any anonymous site, be it Craigslist’s rants and raves or medical transcription site chat boards. It is out there.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If you look at just the anecdotal demographic, you’ll find that on the blogs and comments sites, the WS are boosting their apparent numbers by using multiple handles. Out in the general population, people like Taaffe and others represent perhaps one person in 100 or less, although they may seem more numerous because they’re often discovered in high profile situations and jobs. A holdover from earlier eras when their race had a leg up in unions and in gov’t, police and such.

          When the call goes out for 500 jurors, my guess is that perhaps fewer than 25 of them will be the kind of staunchly racist persons that the foggenaught will need to hold against all odds. There may be 200 people among them who aren’t too particular about blacks, but not so far gone that they would stand against a good, clear and strong case. Point is, even among racists there are degrees.

    • I don’t know what MOM has in mind, but the defendant has waived the hearing and even if Judge Nelson were to grant him a hearing, I don’t believe there is any chance that she would rule in his favor. There is no persuasive evidence of self-defense.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The only way he can get a hung jury is to get a dyed-in-the-wool racist on board somehow. The kind of person GZ needs is not so common, thus there is no assurance that one will even come close to being on the jury, just going by the raw statistical probability.
      Thus a retrial will be a good and sufficient remedy.

      Otherwise GZ has no hope at all of winning any immunity hearing ever. The configuration of the evidence against him shuts off every avenue of reasonable doubt, and that’s just relying on GZ’s own testimony, so it only goes down hill from there.

      We can amuse ourselves by playing various mind games, but the cold reality of the situation is, GZ is T-O-A-S-T! He alone has created this damning array of evidence against him and if that wasn’t bad enough, he not only hasn’t the credibility to overcome his errors, he has this penchant for aggravated catastrophic stupidity that is sure to sink him, if he even gets within a few hundred feet of the surface.

      You are looking at a complete and utter failure who may yet take others down with him.

    • cielo62 says:

      bettykath~ It might indeed be what MOM has in mind. HOWEVER the avalanche of evidence says otherwise. MOM won’t get his chance.


  14. Malisha says:

    He had a right to go and from the store without some nut job watching him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job in a car following him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job chasing him after he ran. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job grabbing and illegally trying to detain him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job pulling a gun on him threatening him and losing his temper and killing him while he screams for help and begs for his life.

    This is what I refer to as someone’s “life interest.” Each person (more so for a child because he has no liberty or property interests yet) has a “life interest” in being allowed to go about leading his or her life without undue interference from other people whom they are not bothering. If I have long hair and you don’t like long hair, that’s not your problem and you get no right to restrict my “hair rights” unless I am a cafeteria worker dishing out your food or a medical assistant dressing your surgical wounds. If I’m walking back from the 7-11 while Black, that’s my life interest and you don’t get to interfere with it even if you think I don’t “belong” where you want to be “resident king and dominator/decider.”

    Trayvon’s life interest was unconstitutionally and tortiously taken BEFORE his liberty interest was taken (by being restrained) and his life was taken outright. The fact that this concept is missing from American caselaw has always bothered me. I expect it will continue to bother me these next decrepit infuriated years…

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Malisha, I’m praying that Fogen will be charged with a hate crime on top of what he is already facing. seeing that his two IDIOT defense team is playing dirty, I want him to get what he has coming one way or another. all of his supporters think that, if he is acquitted by the state, that his troubles are all over but, they seem to forget that the feds will have a bone to pick with his fat ass also.

      It’s really awful how some in this country want this HEATHEN to get away with murdering this child, only because of his race. every last one of these people have got a judgement day coming and, it won’t be none to pretty either. it really angers me seeing Fogen standing in front of that judge, knowing that he killed a child in cold blood and, he is lying through his teeth about his deed being self defense. he is going down one way or another.

      • cielo62 says:

        ladystclaire~ Be careful with that “heathen” label. Some of us “heathens” ALSO believe in justice and want GZ in prison for life. (Wiccans are considered heathens.)


    • LeaNder says:

      Very good Malisha. Nothing to add.

  15. racerrodig says:

    In your experience Professor, what % of defendants that Motion for dismissal after the prosecution rests, and are denied, rest as well as Manson did. If the Motion fails, do many of them present a defense ??

    It would seem to pretty foolish / destructive to say the State failed to prove it’s case then pull what we’re sure Fogens team will pull.

    • The motion for a Judgment of Acquittal is rarely granted. Defense counsel make the motion to protect the record on appeal so that appellate counsel can argue that the evidence was insufficient to support the conviction. If trial counsel fails to move for the JOA, the sufficiency-of-the-evidence argument will be deemed to have been waived on appeal. The JOA motion is usually noted “for the record” and rarely ever argued.

      The motion is denied probably more than 99% of the time.

      I do not believe anyone plans on the motion being granted. As such, denial of the motion does not affect the decision to rest or put on a defense.

      • Dennis says:

        I’m having a tough time understanding the appeals process in the Ryan Ferguson case. He was convicted from two witness testimonies, one of which is the co-defendant. Both witnesses signed affidavits saying they lied under oath because of pressure from the prosecutor.

        The appeals court won’t overturn his sentence or give him a new trial. Our justice system is so messed up.


      • boar_d_laze says:

        Darn straight it’s barely granted. If there was enough evidence at the pre-trial hearing to bind the defendant over for trial, the prosecution has enough evidence to defeat a Motion for Acquittal. As a practical matter, the standard for both is the ability to make a prima facie case.

        Nevertheless, it’s probably malpractice not to make the Motion. What could it hurt?

        Something we haven’t talked about is the possibility of the defense reserving its Opening Statement until the prosecution’s finished with its case in chief.

        It’s a good way to direct the jury’s attention to the holes in the prosecution’s case — if there are any. Not many criminal trial defense attorneys have the patience or self-discipline to do it.

        I’ve never presented an affirmative defense, but if doing so would be tempted to hold off on the opening statement as a way of allowing the prosecution to “set the table” and then knocking down the glassware. In other words, it’s a way of taking over the trial.


        • I never reserved making an opening statement because I believe it’s absolutely necessary to counter the prosecutor’s opening statement in order to keep hope alive.

          With the exception of jury selection, I believe opening statement is the most important part of any jury trial. By the time closing argument rolls around, I think most jurors have made up their minds.

      • One would think that maybe the criminal justice system becomes more obstinate once there is enough scrutiny on a particular case. It sounds like the case with Ryan would actually get a new trial if there wasn’t so much public attention focused on the errors behind his prosecution. I honestly believe these people want us to believe they’re Jesus when it comes to this.

      • Jun says:

        I do not see that being successful for Omara because it sounds like by the evidence that Fogen murdered Trayvon

        But hey maybe Nelson will decide that it’s 1st degree murder and maybe tack on new charges for another trial for Fogen

        I do not see Nelson acquitting Fogen, especially after hearing the NEN call, the witnesses, the forensics, and the screams of a kid pleading for his life, at one point squealing in pain, before being killed by the defendant

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          On the 911 tape, the person screaming is heard to yell “Momma”, I sincerely doubt that anyone will believe that voice belonged to The Foggenaught!

          • kenteoth says:

            Please correct me if I am wrong, but the 911 tapes I keep hearing him saying what sounds to me like F******G COONS, not PUNKS….there is a big difference between coon and punk so either there is a doctored up version or this is what was truly said

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Most people seem to hear coons, I’m not paying much attention to this part of the case, since it makes little difference to a finding of guilt. But you should know that the recording you are referring to that contains the “coons”/”goons” controversy is the Non Emergency Number or NEN, that neighborhood watchers are told to call instead of 911. (Of course both calls go into the same call center, but the NEN calls are shuttled to consoles that are designated NEN for that shift.

            The 911 calls, however, began coming in about 45 seconds before the shot was fired. That first 911 call includes the screams and GZ’s voice making remarks.

      • LeaNder says:

        I’ve never presented an affirmative defense, but if doing so would be tempted to hold off on the opening statement as a way of allowing the prosecution to “set the table” and then knocking down the glassware. In other words, it’s a way of taking over the trial.

        BDL, I would like to understand this part better than I do. Affirmative defense, “holding off on the opening statement”?

        Affirmative defense = judgement of acquittal?

        • Self-defense is an affirmative defense because the defendant admits the act (killing Trayvon) but denies criminal intent.

          In any criminal trial, a defendant can make an opening statement after the prosecutor’s opening statement or reserve the opening statement until after the prosecution rests its case-in-chief. Defendant can also waive opening statement.

      • LeaNder says:

        too late, it drew my attention before my comment disappeared into the web: “judgment”. 😉

      • LeaNder says:

        thanks, Fred, now I understand perfectly well. The coinage makes a lot of sense too, so it will be more easy to keep in mind. 😉 The rest is pretty similar to how I interpreted what you wrote, concerning strategy.

      • racerrodig says:

        Thank You !

  16. kllypyn says:

    Only a nasty hateful low life amoral scumbag would even entertain the thought that a guy with a gun would scream so desperately like that. And literally be crying. Getting beaten in in the face like he claims would make it impossible to scream like that.

    Trayvon was a 17 year old kid who was doing nothing more threatening than walking down a public street. He had a right to go and from the store without some nut job watching him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job in a car following him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job chasing him after he ran. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job grabbing and illegally trying to detain him. He had a right to go to and from the store without some nut job pulling a gun on him threatening him and losing his temper and killing him while he screams for help and begs for his life.

    He murdered Trayvon for one simple reason,anger not self defense. He killed Trayvon because Trayvon would not co operate with him. And he did it despite Trayvon’s cries for his life. He continues to want to play victim and I’m damned sick and tired of it.

    He is not man enough to tell the truth and take responsibility for his actions because his dysfunctional family always helped him get out of trouble or people always lied for him. His parents know he didn’t kill Trayvon in self defense. His dirt licking brother knows he didn’t kill Trayvon in self defense. his lawyers know he didn’t kill Trayvon in self defense. Even his enbread supporters know he didn’t kill Trayvon in self defense they just don’t give a crap.

    This so called man has a history of going after people weaker than himself. He has a history of attacking female undercover police officers. He has a history of attacking an ex girlfriend. He has a history of harassing people including the residents of that neighborhood and coworkers He has a history of throwing women across rooms.

    he is known for being overly aggressive toward other people especially when he doesn’t get what he wants.Trayvon had no such histry including no suppressed criminal record. The worse thing Trayvon ever did was write on a locker and there is no evidence he ever stole anything that jewelry was never reported stolen and was returned to it’s owner and it was listed as found property. there are reports it wasn’t even real. hardly relevant. Trayvon is dead do to one so called man’s uncontrolled anger and hatred for a kid he never even knew.

    Trayvon never knew who this “CREEPY GUY” was. Trayvon never knew why he was after him. Trayvon never knew the police were on the way. All he knew was the some “CREEPY GUY” was watching him. All he knew was that same “CREEPY GUY” was following him in a car. He had never known that the “CREEPY GUY” had gotten out of his truck to pursue him.

    When Trayvon asked “WHAT ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME FOR?” all he had to do was say im block watch and i’ve called the police. If trayvon chose to continue on his way there was nothing he could do about it. He had no ,legal authority to detain or pursue anyone. Instead he grabs or does something to Trayvon Trayvon yells GET OFF!!! the rest is history and unfortunately so is Trayvon.

    If he had left trayvon alone he wouldn’t be in trouble and he would continue to be the a%%hole He had always been. If he felt the need to watch trayvon he should have done so at a discrete distance and not approach him.He had no right to go near or approach or even touch Trayvon. Now he wants to whine and cry about possibly going to prison for life. He should have known he’d end up in prison one day.

    • kllypyn says:

      P.S. He had no reason to call the police in the first place Trayvon was not committing any crime.

      • Rachael says:

        I sort a agree with you. While I don’t agree he had any reason to call the police, if he felt there was a reason to, fine, call them. That is what they are there for. But because he wasn’t committing any crime – even if he looked like he was about to to GZ or anyone other than a police officer, he/they had no right to get out and chase him. That is WHY you call the police.

      • Rachael says:

        But you know, it makes me wonder – perhaps the police had gotten tired of all of his stupid phone calls and told him to knock it off so when he saw someone he “thought” was suspicious like all the others he called about, he couldn’t risk getting in trouble for calling so he shot him and claimed self-defense so they couldn’t get mad at him for calling and bother them again.

        Regardless, he’s an AH.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @kllypyn, I have said the same thing myself. he had NO REASON to even call LE on Trayvon. since when is AA not permitted to walk on certain streets in this country? Fogen himself did not own a damn thing in that complex. why he didn’t even pay his RENT and had the nerve, to tell someone who owned a home there, to show him proof that he was a home owner there. he is LUCKY that, he wasn’t yanked out of his truck and, given a beat down like he never had before.

        You know, I believe he was ran out of Va. because of meddling where he had no business to be. if it wasn’t that, he had to leave there for some other reason and, it more than likely involved him committing some kind of crime.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Kllypyn. P.S. He had no reason to call the police in the first place Trayvon was not committing any crime.

        IMO no he did not have a reason to call the police in the first place. What was his reason? Because there was a lot of break ins in the neighborhood? Well, Trayvon was not doing anything suspicious. Because Trayvon was wearing a hoodie and he thought Trayvon was a thug? Well, people wear hoodies all the time, that doesn’t mean they are thugs. Because Trayvon was an AA, wearing a hoodie and he looked like he did not belong there. This is called profiling. This is one of the criminal acts that is gonna sent fogen’s a** to prison for a long time.

    • pat deadder says:

      Kllypyn I don’t think he killed Trayvon out of anger.I think it was fear. Trayvon was screaming in terror fogen panicked.He said he ran out of time ,He knew the police would soon be there and he knew if Trayvon was still alive he could tell his side of the story and God knows he didn’t want that.In a split second he knew he had to shut him or he would be in big trouble.He knew Trayvon hadn’t done anything wrong and probably saw he was just a naïve kid.He also had the unmitigated gall to believe everyone was going to swallow his bullshit story or stories.

    • ladystclaire says:

      BTW, he needs to be locked up for the rest of his miserable life!

  17. ay2z says:

    Well, how about a motion for extension of time filed by the petitioner today?

    That was coming, after all the complaining about no time to get ready for trial.

    online docket search, use 1233 in the case number box.

    • Not surprised they did that, given the way their arguments were blown out of the water by the respondents.

      Petitioner’s argument was so lame that I was really surprised the DCA even called for responses.

      Oh, well. Guess we’ll wait and see.

      • ay2z says:

        Since this is a motion within the current case, the delay argument would be based on delays needed by the defense for taking care of this Writ? (figuring out what to say next that might fix the blown out of the wanter situation?)

        Round about way, creative to get a delay in the trial by an appeals court, without really asking for a delay.

        Juror requests are apparently already in the mail for this case.

      • SearchingMind says:

        The request for extension depicts a defense that does not know what it’s priorities are, has made bad choices without a clear strategy and is heading towards total disarray.

        I guess O’Mara may have finally realized that the Writ of Certiorari was unnecessary, had no chance of success, should not have filed, a sheer waste of valuable time, money and energy that should have been allocated for things that matter. O’Mara is therefore secretly wishing that the DCA would deny his request for extension and thereupon deny Certiorari. He (O’Mara) is then able to- and will show phony outrage and blame the DCA for the loss and the injustice it has done to GZ.

        Thanks Professor for the well written article. No one could give a better lecture on the subject.

    • ay2z says:

      The hearing arguments for the sanctions motions were heading to the point of the prosecution’s bad acts causing procedural ‘prejudice’, as in causing delays and extra efforts and costs on the part of the defense, to hamstring their ability to get ready for trial in time.

      That, I think sums up what MOM was driving at for his motion for sanctions, at least for all issues but the video taped deposition delay issue.

      He put it on the record and then took it out of Judge Nelson’s hands as she was, (I think) going to decide any money remedies for sanctions against the state after the trial is over.

      If successful, will the defense move to delay the trial several months to a year as they wanted a few months ago? Can they blame a bad outcome at trial, if no delay is granted, on the discovery ‘problems’ they cite and now have on the pre-trial record? The Shakespearean response might also come into play,

      And is the motion for delay, wrapped up in the current Writ, as it’s on the same docket, or will it be handled as a separate case by the 5thdca?

      • ay2z says:

        (get the feeling that the video depo motion will not succeed, after we heard Judge Nelson explain the delays caused at her end, as several hours were gone before she knew the depo had not yet started.)

      • The trial is going to start on June 10th because the defense suffered no prejudice from the alleged discovery violations and cannot give a coherent reason why it cannot be ready by that date.

      • Jun says:

        I will put it simple for yall, and this is from a non lawyer view

        1) They have had over a year to deal with the evidence. The issues they cite could have been quashed a long time ago, if they even existed in the first place.

        2) They had over a year to depose witness 8. They have been told since asking for w8 information, to depose her, repeatedly by both the state and the court. W8 is the source of the information they seek, therefore, they should have went up to her and asked her, a long time ago. There was nothing stopping them from asking her for the information they seek. There is also no proof of what “work” they did to find information on her when the simplest route would have been to go straight to the source, which is w8.

        3) They were repeatedly told to go straight to the source for all the information they seek from FBI, FDLE, DOJ. Why is it the state’s fault because the defense refused to go to the agency to get the files needed, or they felt was not given yet, at the agency.

        4) They were invited to the cell phone forensics session when they were able to get the cell phone forensics done. The defense refused to go to the session when invited, when it actually happened.

        5) The letter that they claim was hidden from them, was discovered by both sides at the same time.

        6) The rules of depositions for both civil and criminal state that people can object then and there as to the manner of which the deposition will take place. Videotaping is a manner of conducting a deposition. The rules also state the party whom orders the videotaping, pays the bill for it. Omara never asked for permission to videotape and just showed up with the videographers. If Omara truly wanted to save time, he should have asked way ahead of time, therefore, any objections that would arise would have been taken care of, long before the actual deposition date.

        I am not a lawyer or a judge but it sounds like there was no violations of discovery. Nothing prevented the defense from getting anything they seek. The defense just refused to get the information. That’s not the state’s fault.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Exactly Jun, the defense had just as much time as the state had to prepare for this trial. but, no MOM had to make his rounds in the media and, then he had to see what the CDH aka CTH had to give him in the form of donations and of all things, LEGAL advice which he has been taking to heart and doing exactly as they have told him when were how and why to do this and that. this man is a bloody IDIOT and the same goes for West.

        What respected attorney listens to a bunch of crazed bigoted MORONS, when representing another MORON who stands a chance of spending the rest of his life in prison. which I hope he will reside at the Steel Bar Resort. this is the worst defense team I have ever seen. they are even worse than Baez and Finger man. BTW, the co-counsel for Casey Anthony’s trial, flipped his midddle finger at the media after her not guilty verdict. I wonder what JoonYah thought about Fog Horn Leg Horn doing such a thing. is he risky?

      • LeaNder says:

        Why is it the state’s fault because the defense refused to go to the agency to get the files needed, or they felt was not given yet, at the agency.

        I looked into that at the time. Strictly concerning the FBI files the state seems to have the duty to pass on whatever they have. On the other hand as the Prof told us, there is no specific date at which time they have to do it, from a purely legal perspective seemingly. Besides I remember that BDRL offered them in late autumn or early winter last year to come and look everything they had a have copies made of whatever they thought was missing.

        I suspect that Fogen would like to have the whole FBI file and hoped his lawyers could get them for him.

        As an afterthought, I also wonder if the fact that Nelson sealed the video deposition of DeeDee if Fogen can watch it, or if it is at least officially closed to him too?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          They were there when the vid was taken, the judge reviewed it and sealed it, probably means there’s nothing relevant in it. To see it now, anyone will have to apply to the judge.

      • LeaNder says:

        ladystclaire, I wonder if the Conservative Treehouse was on BDLR’s mind since, as he told in the last hearing, Guy had to investigate the genesis of the ABC’s audio. I can understand, I was somehow curious about that too.

        Guy may well have encountered the CTH as the ultimate source for the big brouhaha via talkleft too and thus the audio.

        Jeralyn Merritt thanked Tara at the CTH for the link, writing she had found the link in the comment section there. I have never seen her surface there, but Cboldt another lawyer and Zimmerman supporter from her blog and Forum I noticed there lately.

        So yes while they are a central hub in the Fogen support camp, concerning “legal advise” O’Mara may well follow the more polite version of e.g. Jeralyn Merritt or Boldt for that matter. Merritt argued from the start that the family better dropped their efforts, if they wanted to protect the image of their dead son. Somehow like, didn’t they want to protect his image after all and their efforts would necessarily trigger a smear campaign in support of Fogen. …

        It feels to me concerning legal advise Jeralyn Merrit would have been the better suggestion. But it also wouldn’t work that well. For me there is not such a big difference between the treehouse and Jeralyn Merrit, Merrit is the more polite version of the CTH minus the more obvious conspiracy theories. In any case it feels to me, Team Fogen does exactly what she suggested. While the treehouse have no legal expertise but strictly are the ones helping to circulate the thug image necessary for the strategy suggested early by Merrit’s and followed by MOM and West now.

        That’s one of the most interesting revelations to this foreign nitwit that a “polite” self declared centrist democrat can be wide open towards the right wing lore in this special case.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ leander,
        That is an interesting analysis on Merrit’s involvement.

      • LeaNder says:

        Amsterdam, listen to her enhanced segment of the ABC audio file and try to hear what she wants you to hear. That simply took my breath away. Then remember, I am not completely sure about you, but I am not a native speaker. This is really hard to wrap my head around. If I have less difficulties to understand DeeDee’s African American vernacular than a native speaker, what exactly does that mean? Also how comes the more supportive of GZ the less you seemingly are able to understand DeeDee?

        By now, it’s not the first time I encounter it, I associate this hall of mirrors experience, as I call it, with ideologues. Mirroring on others exactly what you do.

        You can listen to a clip I made of her saying “What are you talking about” here. If you still can’t hear it, then I think you don’t want to hear it, or you aren’t as familiar with her speech as you think you are.

        I was close to trying to figure out how to use phonetic symbols in html, and phonetically transcribe her exactly what I hear, but realized it probably would be a waste of time.

        Trying to be fair, seems she had a burglary in 2008, so beyond always being on the side of the defendant as an attorney, she may be slightly taken in by the shiny image of the savior of his neighborhood.

        Which reminds me of Malisha’s collection of documents from the SPD and her obsession with this early phrase, an important part of the early media creation of the image of the hero.

        The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

        The tale was spread all over the US started by an article by Frances Robles on March 17, 2012. It was never corrected but is obviously wrong.

        The article was later got this correction, the above sentence was left intact and was subsequently spread all over the US:

        Correction:Due to incorrect information provided by the Sanford Police Department, several articles about the shooting of Trayvon Martin incorrectly reported the span of time in which neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman called police to report crimes. He called 46 times since 2004.

        Were is unitron our misinformation expert when we need him? That’s the aspect which can be used to manipulate a larger audience. And in this context it is interesting that the numbers were exaggerated for that aim. By the SPD?

        • racerrodig says:

          “Were is unitron our misinformation expert when we need him?”

          Banned, Professor got tired of his crap.

      • LeaNder says:

        oh, and of course there was no “other shooting” either.

      • LeaNder says:

        racerrodig, yes I noticed he is trying to exercise amusing caprioles over at Whonoze. He is not easy to graps, but yes there is something fishy about him. He tries his best to not let it surface too often. His main tool to avert attention seems to be humor:

        Unitron: Re: Writ of Certiorari (Crump Deposition)
        « Reply #135 on: April 26, 2013, 09:35:47 AM »
        Quote from: nomatter_nevermind on April 26, 2013, 08:43:07 AM


        So not very well then?

        I wish someone could subpoena ABC to find out what could possibly have scared them enough to destroy the rest, if they really did, of something which no other news outfit had, an event, to my knowledge, absolutely unprecedented in journalism (not counting outfits like Pravda).

        And another subpoena for Gutman’s own copy of it that ABC doesn’t know about.

        Much of this is based on assumptions. Basically I agree that it’s hard to believe that a media company would destroy material of a case like that. It usually ends up in the archives for later use.

        But strictly they rely on one sentence only in the writ of certiorari which triggers their flights of fancy:

        Out of the 25-minute clear recording ABC News took of the interview, ABC has only preserved the 5-minute clip referenced supra.

        Did they really tell him that they once had a complete recording of the whole session? We cannot check. No way to access their exchanges with ABC. That’s what BDLR alluded to, suggesting a breach of the rules of discovery by defense. Remember? And while they hide, they obviously fear the other side could do the same.

        For whatever reason, it does not his mind that O’Mara is on a fishing expedition, no doubt he would like a complete and ideally different audiofile, but did it ever exist? Could it be that he is angry concerning media manipulation but not much guarded against O’Mara’s obvious manipulation.

        They spin in a mad circles of hearsay fed by O’Mara’s hearsay or quite possibly misguided interpretation, if I am not assuming the worst. Could there e.g. have been a written or verbal contract between ABC and Crump? I am sure O’Mara would like to know, but I consider it Crump’s right to at least partially control the media message. Every PR advisor would tell him that is absolutely necessary to avoid misguided spins. Trust media at your own advantage.

        If I see these kind of responses, it tells me that the person writing it basically accepts the idea that Crump, ABC and the family, DeeDee have something sinister to hide. And that he is ultimately lured by the tale that DeeDee was coached. Now what is this, I hate media sensationalism for money, but I cannot see it in O’Mara’s motions? Hasn’t O’Mara clearly announced his media strategy?

        I cannot repeat too often: Why I ask myself, aren’t these people puzzled by the fact that DeeDee corrects Crump when he asks her to repeat a special passage, maybe since he got a signal from the crew, that’s the part we would like to have? I have never met one person in my life who was coached to say something specific but then corrects the coach. It deeply puzzles me when people avoid to see what is there and what it suggests and favor hunting for something that should be there? Understand? These people are not kids to a large extend.

        How can a tape like this enforce the idea of DeeDee having been coached. Look I understand the suspicion, but I do not understand to what extend it can lead perception.

        • racerrodig says:

          If they try to bring up anything about Dee Dee being coached, it will just piss off the jury and Bernie will bury them. That type of action rarely works and we’re talking about a minor on the stand…..and a murder of a minor.

          He’s traveling in an overloaded truck on very this ice.

    • LeaNder says:

      Seems, I understand now. You assess a different page were the files are not posted yet. If I enter the case number I can see the filed documents too, but don’t have access to the documents yet. And that is the page I use. Where it does not show up yet.

      Maybe you helped me to understand why I could not see what you can. 😉 Thanks ay2z.

      I have to find that somewhere else. No, I cannot seems not even gzlegal has put it up or alerted to it on twitter so far.

      If I were part of the deciders at the appellate court, I would be slightly mad. Why not enclose that in their write immediately?

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ To that motion, simple: DE-NIED!

  18. Malisha says:

    Well there couldn’t be a better damned person to be damned if he does or doesn’t, too!

  19. lurker says:

    Had a quick conversation with a lawyer acquaintance the other day. In his opinion O’Mara is going to HAVE to put Z. on the stand. Perhaps so.

    Also agreed with me that the extreme weight gain points to medication, most likely mood-altering.

    I keep chewing over the O’Mara spokesperson who backed off of any comment on the weight-gain because it might come up in trial. Not sure how that might play out. Might be along the lines of the PTSD that Malisha (I think it’s Malisha) keeps expecting. Or could be just a claim of massive stress from all the death threats supposedly ensuing from this “unusual” case and all the press it has gotten. Consistent with O’Mara’s misdirecting attention from anything other than the pertinent five minutes in which the killing took place. Look over there–Trayvon had a screw-driver in his back pack at school. Look over here–Trayvon’s parents won a civil suit. Look back there–Trayvon was suspended. Look way over there–we are suing NBC.

    But I also wonder, in O’Mara’s spaghetti-testiing fashion (keep throwing it up on the wall until something sticks), if he will try to suggest that George had pre-existing emotional problems that serve as mitigating circumstances. Some way of extending the reasonable person criteria. Maybe a reasonable person might not have reason to be in fear for their life, but George had special perceptions. Of course, one might then ask what in the heck he was doing parading around with a gun in his belt.

    • Consideration of “special perceptions” introduces an element of subjectivity to the reasonable person test, which is an objective test. Therefore, they aren’t relevant.

      That will not necessarily prevent a jury from considering them, but the jury instructions will not authorize them to do so.

      They would be violating the instructions, if they did.

      • lurker says:

        Thanks–I kinda thought so.

        Just like it doesn’t matter where Trayvon was coming from, where he was going, how well he was doing in school or why he was there visiting. But that doesn’t seem to be preventing O’Mara from acting like these things all might be relevant at trial.

        • Yep. Trayvon could have been the Devil incarnate and the crime would still be murder.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Exactly what else can MOM do? Everything that would be relevant at trial also convict his client. He has no choice but to stay as far away from the evidence as is humanly possible. He can argue about the meaning of things that happened at school in Miami years ago to Trayvon, he can argue about the effects of being so close to Disneyland, might have on a youth of 17 years. He can argue about the benefit/detriments of Arizona iced tea after nautical twilight and into astronomical twilight.

          He can argue that he didn’t get the best copies of tapes, he can argue that BDLR eats too many/few calories for breakfast. He can argue anything at all, up to and including the Delhi Lama and/or Nikita Khrushchev, but he must not mention “Hey… We’ve had some break ins…” Since the evidence is the third rail to GZ defense.
          MOM knows the rule: touch it an die!

      • Rachael says:

        “Just like it doesn’t matter where Trayvon was coming from, where he was going, how well he was doing in school or why he was there visiting. But that doesn’t seem to be preventing O’Mara from acting like these things all might be relevant at trial.”

        He’s just trying to put ideas into people’s heads – taint the jury pool.

        But he doesn’t want this tried in the media –

        Yeah right. LIAR!!!!

      • ay2z says:

        Where Trayvon was coming from…. literally where were his pings on the map we have not seen in discovery. Can the public not demand this discovery from the clerk’s office?

        This map was discussed in the last hearing, brought up by the defense as showing, as defense described, not on a point between the 7/11 and the Retreat complex.

        Does Trayvon’s diversion mean something criminal or does it support the short cut and rain-cover route with the Taaffe short cut?

        Can’t the sunshine law work to reveal what this is about, unless redacted or closed by some agreement– the defense talked about it openly though.

        • cielo62 says:

          ay2z~ OR it might show the route through Colonial Gardens near Grace Z.’s place. As generous as the Sunshine laws are, they cannot reveal everything. I, too, want to see this. I believe it will be an active part of the trial.


      • Rachael says:

        ay2z – I don’t know what you mean by something criminal, but not once did GZ say he saw Trayvon doing anything criminal. He didn’t write it in his statement and he has said nothing. Even if Trayvon HAD done something criminal, that has NOTHING to do with anything. GZ ONLY said (in his warped mind) he looked suspicious. Even if Trayvon had just robbed a bank, GZ didn’t say he saw it, didn’t say Trayvon was doing that at the time, there was NO reason for him to go after him. NONE.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Ay2z

        “This map was discussed in the last hearing, brought up by the defense as showing, as defense described, not on a point between the 7/11 and the Retreat complex. Does Trayvon’s diversion mean something criminal or does it support the short cut and rain-cover route with the Taaffe short cut?”

        No, ay2z. Surely, none how Trayvon chose to get to point ‘B’ from point ‘A’ is any of GZ’s business.

        The defense did make a statement to the effect that there is a map that suggests that Trayvon was not simply in the area between the RTVC and the 7/11 on the night of his murder. This information is exculpatory ACCORDING to O’Mara! I thought that was kind of bizarre when I heard it because, if true and relevant, it would help to make the case that (a) GZ spotted and started following Trayvon much earlier than he claimed (if not, where Trayvon was before GZ spotted him would totally be irrelevant, IMO) and (b) GZ’s video-taped reenactment is (substantially) false.

        I fail to see how the info O’Mara and West were referring to, helps the defense. On the contrary, the statement made by O’Mara and West prove (to me) that the defense has a lot of evidence (the public is not yet privy to) that, when put together, devastates GZ’s narrative of the events leading up to the killing. That’s one of the main reasons the defense backed off from the promised SYG/Self-defense Immunity encounter with the State. That also explains why the gang leaders at the CTH (aka Sundance Cracker, Diwataman, Diwatalady, etc.) are furious and calling for O’Mara’s head for not making the info you refer to, the gps-data, phone records, etc. public.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Boy is the defense team asking for it with the gps data. Don’t these fools realize that:

          1. If Trayvon moved in a manner that is in conflict with his most direct route back to RATL from 711, then that reduces the amount of time he has to spend sheltering in the mail kiosk, which means that GZ has to arrive there in a ever narrowing window in time. Hardly conducive to the appearance of coincidence he’s trying to claim.
          The Master Revisable Timeline helps with the view of what kind of planning and/or surveillance might be needed.

          Worse yet, the possibility that Trayvon could divert on his return trip, has long been what suggests that he had to be watched, to coordinate the line up of events. So, the actual proof that TM did divert from the most direct path of return, is actual proof that GZ either performed surveillance over a much more extended time and distance, or that he had assistance to do the same. Making it ever more likely that the “three stooges” who show up at 711, weren’t there by coincidence but were actually on a mission.

          2. There’s always the possibility that what they’re seeing as a diversion from the most direct route is, in reality, merely due to the inaccuracies of the system.

          We know that it is possible that triangulation of towers could have been used to generate positional data to locate TM’s phone. This would provide an accuracy of plus or minus some 60 meters. But also, by 2001 civilian systems had access to military gps accurate to 20 meters or less. So that by 2012 it’s likely that military gps functions would be used, since many service provider, revenue producing features and ad functions, relied on military gps, so most devices would come with these functions on by default. Mfg’s had been providing the service by on board chips since 2005-6.

          All of which, in short says, it’s more likely than not any data not yet released, is more likely than not to cook El Foggens Goose!
          |||-> Tick Tock<-|||

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep !! Phone records….Gee, I wonder if some of the calls on Fogens phone are to one of your “Three Stooges” Just saying.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I thought about that, but let it go since I felt I might be far enough off the deep end already. But now that MOM says that TM didn’t return to RATL directly, it now seems more likely that they may have communicated with GZ direct.

            At first I couldn’t understand what was going on at the 711, when I saw those guys there, the actions we were seeing was saying “hey we’re connected to this saga!” I hadn’t even noticed they were taking care to hide their faces. Then I got around to reading the Ransberg(burg) and Burgess material and then things started to click. Although I couldn’t see a GZ Ransburg(berg) connection, on could theorize there might be one.

            As you say racer, we need that phone data badly. I’m sure MOM won’t release it. He has the raw data files from Trayvon’s phone, because BDLR told us he gave it to him, and he admits he has no experts to make any sense of it. Why he won’t post it on the net, where we can put our own experts to work on it, is more than obvious. His clients goose is cooked. GZ is toast, tick tock.

          • racerrodig says:

            I don’t believe it’s that far off base. I think there is a subplot here as you have outlined. I see you missed the tone of my voice in that post. I can’t say 100% but the reaction from one of my Investigator friends seems to confirm you are really close to home on your theory.

            Maybe we should do screen plays…….

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I can’t help dreaming some nights that the three stooges followed Trayvon and caused him to take evasive action. Maybe that’s why he cut through Colonial village and not because of the rain at all. Then he’d be very sensitive already to being followed, even before GZ arrived at the mail kiosk. That might also be why he was tired out so quickly.

            Would it make any sense if I guessed that Ransberg(burg) was a fence for stolen property?

          • Ya know I can picture the tank….tanked….calling fogen like a junkyard dog…..”sic ’em boy”…

          • racerrodig says:

            “Would it make any sense if I guessed that Ransberg(burg) was a fence for stolen property?”

            It would make perfect sense….I still say when the phone records are released or brought up at trial, we are all in for some shockers.

            Last year I posted a hypothetical list of calls to and from in the hour before the murder to a few minutes after. My Federal guys never deny my theory. Imagine what really happened since I doing this as a stab in the dark.

            What if Fogen called Ransburg ?? or vice versa. Text messages ?
            Calls with Osteridiot & Taaffe…..all in the short time period of a murder ?? The odds are in the Trillions to 1.

      • LeaNder says:

        Searching mind, I remember the statements in the context of the arguments that FDLE withheld something from them, more precisely O’Mara’s questioning of West. People over at Whonoze’s blog discussed the statement and what it could mean. You may be interested

        It feels the way it was introduced either suggests that O’Mara or West don’t really know what they are talking about, or more likely, it was said the way it was to raise the suspense level and thus expectations in the Fogen camp.

    • Forgot to mention that I agree with your lawyer friend about the defendant having to testify.

      It’s a damned-if-he-does, damned-if-he-doesn’t situation.

      • LeaNder says:

        Interestingly, in spite of the waiving of an immunity hearing his supporters still firmly believe he will take the stand, while more rational and legal minds like you, seem to suggest he better doesn’t and that may in fact be a reason he did waive the immunity hearing. I also interestingly found a comment somewhere supporting this notion that the little staging of questioning West was indeed done so Fogen could witness how it works.. I have to admit it crossed my mind too.

        What they also completely ignore as the statement by tryagainplease above shows, is the legal reasons for Fogen’s waiving of the immunity hearing. Richard Hornby wrote quite a good article on that from the purely legal perspective we already learned here. But from an explicit Florida law perspective as a criminal defense attorney from Orlando.

        Maybe his statement that Nelson will follow Florida law to the dot, is important concerning the odd writ of certiorari too. I am still slightly wondering, if the purely political argument could have an effect, or more precisely, if it could have. Admittedly it was the part that shocked me most, while Jeralyn Merritt loved it.

    • crazy1946 says:

      I have heard the suggestion that the MOM could use a defense based on PTSD, it is strange that anyone could even suggest he use an argument that his murder of this child has caused him so much stress that he should be found innocent! If that could be considered a valid defense for criminal activity there are many of us who spent time in S. E. Asia that could commit crimes and never be expected to pay! That having been said, if we were to be honest with ourselves, there are few of us on this blog that have never had the urge to kill cross our minds, the main difference is that we resisted the urge to follow thru and some people did not…. or perhaps it was circumstances that caused us to not follow thru on the thought?

      • racerrodig says:

        He can’t use a PTSD defense for murder….if he was facing charges like SheLie maybe…..”Hey, I’m stunned I got charged with murder…..I have all this stress and can’t think straight”

        But to even make the attempt to use stress as a defense will anger the jury for sure. That’s a real insult to one intelligence.

        But then again…..this is the Fogen Circus.

      • Malisha says:

        I wasn’t guessing that the PTSD would be an affirmative defense to murder at a trial; I was guessing the PTSD motion was going to be a way for O’Mara to ask for more time, saying that Fogen had PTSD and therefore could not cooperate in his own defense and therefore was not fit to stand trial yet, and get a continuance. Then over the course of the next two years continuances for his PTSD he gets some other mental illnesses and on and on until he can NEVER stand trial. See, that’s what I expected. I hope in some small way my emphasizing this and mentioning it over and over has had a bit of a chilling effect on O’Mara but who knows; he may still have enough chutzpah to defy Malisha of the Leatherman Blog and go ahead with it at the last minute. And if so, it’ll be that Fogen began to get PTSD because he almost was killed by a thug.

        • kenteoth says:

          The problem with PTSD is that it should have been presented at the time of the shooting not 1 month before trial unless there is a legal provision for this. I do not think Judge Nelson will allow this to fly with all of the BS, excuses, ASSITUDE and downright disrespect for the court that M’OM has presented and the fact that the defendant did NOT keep his mouth shut. The re enactment video, the hannity insanity, the initial bond hearing all have proven that the defendant is basically…how to put this lightly….*sipping tea* IS FULL OF S-H-I-T!!!!!

      • groans says:

        @ Malisha, re:

        And if so, it’ll be that Fogen began to get PTSD because he almost was killed by a thug.

        Or, more accurately, it’ll be that the killer began to get PTSD because his trial date was approaching!! 😆

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I don’t believe there’s any precedent at all for a defendant to petition for and get relief, for stress brought on by his trial. Trials are made to be stressful, because, well, the stakes involved are high.

          Of course, trials are more stressful for guilty people than they are for people who can prove their innocence.

          I’d have more sympathy for GZ’s situation if it was only the evidence that was stacked against him. Unfortunately for the foggennaught his own words are stacked against him along with the evidence. Yet, he feels he has no reason to regret having killed someone, who by his claimed standards, was not the kind of person he intended to kill.

          Yeah, get that! He is not out to kill innocent people, if you hear him tell it, he’s only out to stop dangerous thieves and criminals. But he killed someone who was neither a dangerous criminal or a thief, but an innocent kid. He says that if he had to do it all over again, he would once again kill the innocent kid and he has no regrets about doing so. Wow!!! They don’t come worse than this. Even the worst killer in prison feels he was in some way justified in killing. GZ admits he had killed and would do so again, and that he needs no justification at all. He just kills because he wants to kill, young, black, males! And now he wants to be set free!

          • racerrodig says:

            Well said. I’m thinking the stress of Fogen staring at vertical metal bars about 3 inches apart will create a mountain of stress. Tough..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            And this fool wanted to become a policeman or a judge. Instead his bad decisions and blithering stupidity landed him in the slammer as a murder convict! As a child killer, I doubt he’s going to get much respect, especially since most convicts have children of their own. Maybe he’s write a book titled: It’s a horrible life!

          • racerrodig says:

            If he writes a book, he’ll have to compete with Osteridiot for worst selling…..and every dime would go to the estate of Trayvon Martin.

            Needless to say. O’ Mara and cohorts are steaming about every dime the Martins make.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, we get to laugh at how foolishly the defendant and his team wasted 300k, what a pack of fools.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep…..Zidiocy at it’s funniest.

          • And what is the meaning of fogens “gang” tattoo?

            “Today we laugh because tomorrow we die”

            How fitting…..hope he’s had enuff of the “good life” to last him 25 years

          • racerrodig says:

            And it is a tattoo used by many gang members….Laugh now, cry later.

            I’m thinking he’s pretty much crying a lot about now.

          • Like a fukken baby……….Yeah tough guy…..whine now…….and we’ll see how tough you are…

            HOODIES UP

          • racerrodig says:

            HOODIES UP & Skittles held high.

  20. willisnewton says:

    I think the “star witness” for the prosecution will be GZ himself in the form of his inconsistent, contradictory and clearly false statements to the SPD.

    I agree that Dee Dee /W8 is “icing on the cake.”

    I also think there is a good chance the prosecution can prove to a jury that GZ told a pattern of lies to obscure the car-to-pedestrian chase that took place before GZ left his vehicle. This pattern of lies, contradictions and obfuscations can be extended into the missing minutes to explain how his account stands at odds with the likely truth suggested by other evidence.

    The location of the body is hugely problematical for George. He never claimed he “stumbled” south until her was taken to the scene of the killing, and even then only “re-enacted” a distance slightly less than half the actual distance from the sidewalk T that he would have traveled, were we to believe his inconsistent story.

    Then we have the assertions of the prosecution of multiple witnesses to a “foot chase.” I’m very keen to hear this part of the case at trial.

    Having said all that, I do agree that what seems to be the hope of the defense is that the prosecution simply can’t PROVE M2 beyond a reasonable doubt. They may have something to hope for, but I know the prosecution can prove that GZ is utterly lacking in credibility. That ought to count for a lot in a case where the “other guy” is dead. And if it wasn’t self defense then it was some sort of criminal homicide.

    This brings us to “depraved mindset” and what it might take to convince a jury of this. Calling someone an axxhole and up to no good and a f-ing punk/c**n/goon etc is going to count for a lot.

    Keep in mind that GZ NEVER mentioned to the SPD that the teen he was watching (and following with his car, IMO) ran away. He said this clearly on the NEN call recording but after the fact failed to bring this up until he was confronted with the statement by investigators. It’s at the heart of his false narrative, and he’s going to be exposed on that one.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That bell tolls for thee, Fogen.

    • Rachael says:

      There is so much problematic for him that if he even TRIES to explain will only dig him further and further in. I hope he does testify, but even if he doesn’t – like you said, right from the start – his intentions were made VERY clear.

      • Rachael says:

        I mean it just seems to me that any reasonable and rational person has to realize that when someone calls the police aobut someone they think is suspicious, while muttering under their breath how upset they are because the “assholes” always get away, calling them a fucking whatever (it WAS coon though) and getting out of your vehicle to go after them when you are carrying is going to end well.

        There is just no way that scenario is gonna end well.

      • Xena says:

        GZ wants to be heard at trial. He just doesn’t want to be challenged or look like an idiot in public. So, O’Mara is going to ask the court for two things;
        1. Can GZ testify without being cross-examined, or in the alternative;
        2. Can GZ file affidavits.

        Neither worked for him previously but then, GZ likes picking fights, even to having his defense team pick fights with Judge Nelson.

    • lurker says:

      Hard to argue a fear of imminent anything given George’s belief that the police were going to show any second. As evidenced by his response to the first person on the scene.

    • SearchingMind says:

      “This brings us to “depraved mindset” and what it might take to convince a jury of this. Calling someone an axxhole and up to no good and a f-ing punk/c**n/goon etc is going to count for a lot.”

      To add to your excellent analysis, I would like to mention the following: (a) GZ’s hidden utterances in the 911-tapes, (b) GZ’s own demonstration and statement as to how he shot Trayvon, (c) the forensics, (d) ballistics, (e) the trajectory of the bullet and (f) inferences/conclusions that, by necessity, must be drawn from ballistic and forensic results. IMO, all of the above (cum witness statements and more evidence the public is not yet privy to) will remove GZ from the ground and underneath Trayvon when the fatal shot was fired. When that happens, the only reasonable conclusions would be (g) that it was Trayvon screaming, begging for his life and trying to escape while GZ executed him. While Trayvon lay dying, GZ was bragging about-/discussing the type and caliber of the bullet he used in the killing. Nothing can be more emblematic of “depraved mind”. Indeed, GZ acted like he was killing- and did killed an animal. And for that I call GZ The Butcher of Sanford.

    • LeaNder says:

      good comment willis, although there unfortunately aren’t “multiple witnesses” for the foot chase. Indirectly maybe concerning the sound patterns perceived as approaching from whatever direction. You cannot really tell based on the acoustic pattern only. Jeralyn Merritt, by the way, argues that the teacher, who perceived a verbal encounter, basically supports Fogen’s tale due to where she lives. I am a bit doubtful about that. Strictly the footpath down to where Trayvon stood faced her open window too, without any building reflecting or obstructing the spread of sound. I may be missing the correct terms in that context, but I hope you understand what I mean.

      There is in fact only one visually observing a chase, and she backtracked slightly because she did not wear either contacts or glasses at the time. As someone blind as a bat, I can tell you, I wouldn’t do that under any circumstances, which strictly at least suggests to me that her eyes are better then mine at least without any tools.

  21. kenteoth says:

    I was thinking the same thing about Dee Dee. The defendant supporters feel that Dee Dee’s testimony will make the case for him when in actuality everything the defendant has said and done (including the first bail hearing) will go against him. The Hannity Insanity will come back to haunt the defendant in a terrible way and all of those who support him will be disappointed and upset and will cry everything but what is appropriate……JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!!!!!!!!

    • Rachael says:

      Exactly. They also are making a big deal about the jewelry that they found in Trayvon’s back pack and what if it was from some break-ins from that area – or something. But they just can’t grasp the concept that that has NOTHING to do with THAT night, no matter HOW suspicious he may have looked to GZ. GZ didn’t SEE him DO anything that night. He may have had “probable suspicion,” but he is NOT a police officer so cannot act on that – which apparently he did.

      And there is that other part, the “but for” part – which “they” don’t seem to get either and say stupid stuff like if Trayvon wasn’t suspended, he wouldn’t have been there – BS. He had every right to be visiting his dad, suspended or not. Besides, how many moms send teen sons to live with their dads? I guess what I mean is there is NO reasonable thought to think that just because he was there visiting something would happen. However, is it reasonable to assume that someone who sees something they think is suspicious, calls the police and gets out of their car with a gun – that something might happen? But for – proximate cause


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Hell’s bells, my son was suspended in middle school for 10 days for refusing to cut his hair, no more, no less, with no prior suspensions. And he was a good student. The Treestump is beyond the beyond.

      • He may have had “probable suspicion,” but he is NOT a police officer so cannot act on that – which apparently he did.

        It’s called “reasonable suspicion” and, no, his suspicion was not reasonable. Serino told him that.

        Otherwise, I agree.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Professor… You can’t possibly mean that it’s alright for a black kid to walk in the rain without looking like an athlete? MiGosh, what ever will we teach at the police academy? 😀

      • Rachael says:

        LOL – yes, thanks, though I’m sure his suspicion was reasonable to him – which is my point – even it it was, reasonable to him, what happened is the EXACT reason for him not to act upon it, reasonable or not.

        That is a decision for LE, not GZ.

      • kenteoth says:

        According to the police report There was no backpack only what Trayvon was wearing, his cell phone, the drink, the skittles and the money he had. I think the backpack in question was the one the defendant supporters said he had at school with the jewelry, but there was never any thing done about it because there was no proof Trayvon had possession of stolen property as they claimed.

      • LeaNder says:

        LOL – yes, thanks, though I’m sure his suspicion was reasonable to him

        Rachael, that’s the absolutely central point in this case for me. And strictly you can reduced all efforts in the Fogen camp to trying to make it real in spite of all the contradictory evidence, all efforts are about keeping this core aspect, Fogen’s suspicion, alive and justified.

        The misguided energy driving all the efforts, is that Fogen can not accept the realization that he was wrong to start with. “The suspect” has to remain “the suspect”. Seems he needs a lot of mood enhancers lately, more than before to keep his position up, and thus the position of his followers.


        I wouldn’t be very surprised if someone inside SPD leaked the Miami school case to Robles. It seems she was used by SPD to propagate the many break-ins and burglaries inside RTL into the larger US media. In other words the image of Fogen as the shiny hero protecting his neighborhood. So that’s where I would start an internal investigation. Was the SPD’s media spokesman at the time also not so aware of the now changed public release policies in Miami? Complex matters, juvenile versus police records, contradictory internal Miami police rules and official release policies, in relation to Florida’s sunshine laws. I am not sure if I completely grasped it by now.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I think it’s time for Attorney Crump to turn the spotlight of judicial review on the MDSPD and the MDS district. They deserve to be sued massively for their mishandling of their own investigations and the records they subsequently generated, stored and lost control of.

          The record of Trayvon’s infractions, in no way reflect that there was any proper investigation underway. The officer claims that he saw on cctv, Trayvon marking a door with graffiti, so why doesn’t he leave his office and go apprehend him there with the marker/evidence in his possession?

          Instead, he suspiciously stops Trayvon the next day, using a claimed event (which may have never really happened, wanna bet there’s no recording of the claimed cctv witnessed event?) as an excuse to search Trayvon’s back pack where he claims to have found jewelry and a burglar tool.

          Let’s see, where to begin. Why list a flat head screw driver as a “burglar tool” in an official student police profile report, when there is absolutely not a whiff of proof to back up such a salacious statement?
          They need to be sued for this attack!

          The officer who searched the back pack claims to have seen Trayvon on cctv, marking up a doorway, and uses that claim as his excuse to search Trayvon a day later, looking for a marker. This is patent misconduct and needs to be resoundingly repudiated under judicial review. The MDSPD should be forced to either prove their claimed “probable cause”, or withdraw their accusations entirely and completely. Knowing how these districts usually operate, we’re going to make our best guess that there is no cctv record of the claimed school door marking. Should that actually be the case, the MDSPD and the School district should again be sued “to within an inch of their lives” for this terrible injustice they performed and recorded and allowed to be released to the public at a most sensitive and painful time.

          I thing the MDSPD and the MDS DISTRICT, needs to be sued for 8 to 9 figures, to slam home the point that Afro Americans will no longer be “targets of choice” for the police to use to meet their quotas with false and salacious accusations and report.

          • @ Lonnie….I agree with you that the school district should be brought to task….and held accountable…

            To sue the school district would only take funds from educating the kids……

            Fire the school security….then go after them civilly

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- I like your solution. Punish the idiots who messed up, not the kids just going to school.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I’d agree, except that in this case it’s the Miami Dade Police who are providing the security service. So there’s no way around draining the public treasury. But, as I said, the County general fund is able to handle these things and may even have insurance.

            It would take an award in the 7 figures to punish such a public entity as a County government, but, if the family worries about the cost to the children, they can return the money to the children who need it by making direct grants, perhaps even making trade schools and college available to some who would not otherwise get there on their own. Or pay for private tutoring for students in need of mentoring etc., to get their grades up.

            At least that would be more effective than waiting for these funds to trickle past the various gate keepers on their way to those in need of them.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, not exactly, if sued the money would come out of the Miami Dade county general fund, leaving less money for pols to spend on fact finding missions to exotic retreats and far away places, as well as bonuses and other perks. The school budget is fixed under a massive block of local, state and federal mandates, thus it would be tough for the city or county to make much, if any adjustments. Of course school property taxes would have to rise, bringing much, well deserved, opprobrium on the current officeholders.

          • racerrodig says:

            Well said !! I still think no such events actually happened at all. How strange that no jewelry was ever reported missing / stolen at all.

            Come arrest me, I have literally hundreds of burglary tools within 30 feet om where I am now.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Try a little experiment, from 9am until noon, walk around town with a pry bar openly visible. At noon, pass the pry bar to a black and have him attempt to walk around town until 3pm. Repeat this every day for a week, then notice that there are now 7 blacks in jail facing burglary charges. 😆

          • racerrodig says:

            There is no doubt about that. Some years ago my machinist came to my shop to drop off some work he did for me. I usually go to his shop. Lo and behold, not 3 minutes later the police arrive. After telling the officers what’s happening (Gee, look, a black man delivering stuff) the officer left feeling pretty foolish.

            My guy backed his pick up to one of my shop doors, which was open, being about 90 at the time, and that must be akin to “….looking at all the houses…”

            After my guy left, the bigot, er, neighbor who called the police actually came into my shop and made a stink about “letting him go”

            I can’t post what I called this guy……

      • Rachael says:

        kenteoth, if your response is to me, I AM talking about the backpack AT SCHOOL with the jewelry. The outhouse is trying to connect it to the burglaries in the area of where Trayvon’s dad was staying. They have done extensive “research” and have “shown” why nothing was done to Trayvon for the jewelry he was found in possession of.

        My point was even if they are able to connect those burglaries and that jewelry to Trayvon, it has NOTHING to do with what happened that night.

        Sorry for the confusion.

        • My point was even if they are able to connect those burglaries and that jewelry to Trayvon, it has NOTHING to do with what happened that night.

          You are correct.

          • kenteoth says:

            Thanks Rachel I was a little confused at first when I read your comments and wasn’t sure if someone supporting the defendant was trying to give you misinformation but am so happy were are on the same page…….JUSTICE WILL BE FOR TRAYVON!!!!!!!!!!

  22. truthseeker66 says:

    FYI: Judge denied Michael Dunn taxpayer $ for defense. He is responsible to fund his defense out of pocket.

    • Malisha says:

      When Dunn thinks somebody in prison is playing their music too loud, a whole new way of looking at the world will ensue.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m surprised, really. He’s in custody, no job – but perhaps he has other assets. I read his parents are paying his attorney up to 75k – but I don’t think your family should have to foot your bills unless they’re willing. I suspect the state should be paying for some of Dunn’s defense.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        ‘Nother thought – probably you should go with a public defender from square 1 and perhaps that’s one reason the judge won’t budge on indigency for Dunn.

    • texad says:

      @ truthseeker66

      This is good news-especially since Dunn had portrayed himself to be a successful businessman.

  23. I just want GZ judgement day to hurry and get here.Send him to his permanent HOME.

  24. colin black says:

    foggagge heard about the twinkie defence to a double murder trial that worked.
    He thinks the more twinkies he eats the stronger his defence.

    When the only thing made stronger will be special seat just for him
    Reinforced to take his bulk an he wont even need to lock an chain it.
    To prevent up to no good people from stealing it.

    The locks an chains will be on him not his chair.

    PS I know twinkies gone out of buisness .
    Thats because foggagge ate them all.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      LOLOLOL. You just might be on to his strategy, Colin.

      Twinkies are coming back soon. Some other company bought the rights to manufacture them.

  25. Two sides to a story says:

    The chances seem very slim that the court and jury could ignore the getting out of the vehicle and following, the scream, and Fogen’s statements, both in the NEN call and in subsequent interviews, and W8 testimony.

    Since they don’t dare do a hearing and let the paying supporters think this is brilliant legal strategy, so the defense team is happy to let them think a standard procedure in a criminal trial is something special too.

    Just as defense attorneys are a special breed, there must also be a special hell for the likes of OM and West too.

  26. Malisha says:

    I believe O’Mara will stage SOMETHING at the trial that he can fool (some) people into thinking was a form of immunity hearing. I think his audience will be expecting it. I’m not even IN his audience and I expect it.

    You CAN fool all the people SOME of the time and of course, SOME of the people… 😥

    • LeaNder says:

      Yes, you can always try, and in a way it may well partially work since it satisfies a need. Symbiotic relation between O’Mara saying what some people want to hear?

      • pat deadder says:

        Omara said he had residents from the complex to testify to the many breakins does that matter in anyway.I mean is he actually trying to diminish fogen’s culpalbility with that horse manure.If not what is his point.

      • LeaNder says:

        Pat, tell me how that is supposed to help? Does that mean if there were break-ins, some of which were reportedly committed by black young men, you can and should target arbitrarily young black male walking in your neighborhood? Does that mean he is going to offer the CTH type of evidence, like there could have been something more generally wrong with Trayvon? Remember our host told us that opens the door to character evidence against Fogen in return.

        I couldn’t help but drop a comment over at the CTH, although I did not check if it showed up. I am on monitor mode, which they usually don’t use for Fogen supporters. It went something like this:

        Explain why your research is relevant. Let’s suppose for argument sake he had a criminal past. Now, wouldn’t that have made him even more aware he had nothing to hide at that specific point in time and thus nothing to fear? Or did they find any loot and burglary tools on him?

        Miami no doubt seems to be rough place, the most interesting interview was the one by Commander Deanna Fox Williams. Seems I trust her concerning Charles Hurley. She filed her complaint before his interior investigation as a result of Frances Robles article.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Absolutely nothing probative there at all. The claimed graffiti was supposedly witnessed via cctv, yet the officer who claims to have witnessed the crime did not move to apprehend immediately as he should have, instead, he claims to have accosted the suspect the next day, to look for the marker/evidence, when lo-and-behold, he discovers jewelry and a screw driver instead.

          The screw driver is listed in the official report as a “burglary tool” and the jewelry is listed as “probable loot” by inference, and left with an unexplained status, even though no owner, no complain can be found and no value is ever determined or listed. We are told these are “silver wedding bands” and ” earrings with diamonds”. Since diamonds are never mounted on silver jewelry, the implication is that these diamond earrings should be worth several thousands of dollars, with gold being somewhere around 1700 per ounce and diamonds being worth many hundreds per caret.

          Conclusion: This record is false, improperly created as the result of an improper and therefore suspect investigation(s), not only is it actionable in itself, the fact that it remained in this improper state until it was improperly released to the public, is also a matter that is actionable. I would recommend that the estate of Trayvon Martin and his Parents, instruct their attorney(s) to seek redress for pain, suffering and agony against the Miami Dade School district and it’s police organization. Since this served only to aggravate the pain and suffering already being borne because of the wrongful death. Thus the MDSPD’s failure to properly investigate, report, record and store their reports has caused dramatic additional pain and suffering.

      • LeaNder says:

        Thanks Lonnie, that was helpful. Do you have something on your blog concerning different sources than the specific narrative surfacing from the interior investigation.

        So you suggest that possibly two of the case file numbers, one which seemingly has no name and data in it, allude all the same story? Maybe I check these passages again. It may have escaped my attention. I did not quite understand that part in the depositions, obviously they have the reports to know what people are talking about. But we haven’t.

        Also concerning the jewelery, I was a bit startled by the guy taking the photo with his cell phone, I think it was him. He said something like; It looked like jewelery. I did not understand what exactly he wanted to convey with the “look like” in this context. It either was, or it wasn’t. I have no capacities to imagine something that “looks like jewelery”. It either is or it isn’t. You seem to support my hesitating confronted with that peculiar way to put it.

        • “Looks like jewelry” probably means costume jewelry.

          • They could also change the screwdriver from “burglary tool” to “weapon” as you yourself know many assaults & murders have been committed with screwdrivers.

            I carry a Leatherman (not you) on my belt…and a survival tool (credit card type) in my wallet…..Guess I’m loaded down with burglary tools & weapons?

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- and armed with a rapier wit!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Naw…..just an old rusty sabre…….That I DON”T carry… 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- you know I’m no fan of firearms but you should see my swords, knives and daggers. I’m not a pacifist.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Ur also a Wiccan IRRC……

            Manitou Springs Co. has the highest population or witches, warlocks & wiccans per capita than any other town in the country…….

            Never been in a town and seen so many COEXIST bumperstickers 🙂

            A 2007 NYT story called Manitou the “Hippie Mayberry”


          • cielo62 says:

            Cool! Another place to visit! Most witches around here are just goth make believe. Wicca, as a religion, does have a theology and a code of conduct, not just cool rituals. These wanna-be witches like the costumes and the mystique, but have no clue to the spiritual basis for the rituals or philosophy. I asked ladystclaire to not use “heathen” as a pejorative (she’s called GZ a heathen on several occasions) but to no avail. It’s really no different than calling someone a fag or a dyke. But it’s all part of reclaiming a lost history, a history totally demonized by Christian men. ‘Sigh’ time to get off of my soapbox as I could stay here all day.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Well U come to visit Manitou……….U gotta drive on out and visit me…….Matter of fact…I could be ur tour guide 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- BTW, I also have that bumper sticker! 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • Me Too :)…

            A peacefully coexisting redneck 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            What about the hundreds of burglary tools in the 1/2 dozen or so tool boxes and wall mounts in my shop……quick…..call the Zidiot Nation…..maybe Sundance Crackpot “…just got off the phone..” with more breaking the case wide open crap…….doubt it though.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hands too are terrible criminal devices; “Police report: MountainManPat, found in possession of two gun operating devices”.
            They’re weapons system platforms I tell ya! Hahaha! TSHGTS!!! [hint: This …. has got to stop!!!

          • LeaNder says:

            Thanks Fred, that would make sense. There are a couple of hints in the depositions that suggest a specific mindset to me. David Smiley seems reliable Miami-Dade schools investigators clear former top cop of harassment. He was not the one feeding the heat that surfaced on the CTH. That was the lady that had asked for the reports. Not Robles, by the way. Seems something may be fishy in Miami Dade police too.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s what I keep saying. That is, if there actually was anything at all.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, a dozen silver wedding bands and a pair of diamond earrings. Hahaha… Since diamonds are almost never set in silver, the earrings would be almost an ounce of gold at some 1700 per ounce, and then a few thousand dollars for diamonds, if this is not costume jewelry, the police didn’t know how to do their jobs. While on the other hand, if it’s costume jewelry, the police either have to be kidding about the burglary tools, or they are candidates for the funny farm.

            Diamond earrings really? No appraised value? They want us to believe that they just gave him the benefit of the doubt, on possibly 6 or 7 thousand dollars worth of jewelry they didn’t know who owned? They couldn’t take any pictures? Of course not, they didn’t want the world to have a look at what they were calling jewelry! Because they were being silly and trying to ruin a young black kids life!

            Now, from what I’ve seen, I’m not so sure that they even really found an empty MJ baggie. These creeps probably planted it. On examination of their conduct, the preponderance of the evidence says they were hell bent on harassing Trayvon rather than enforcing any rules. I still say they should be sued!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            For all we know, it may just have been some shiny rocks. Maybe, just maybe, this never even happened.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, more than likely this was just some junk the officer kept in his locker, and brought up to plant on a kid, part of his clever plan to scare the kids into confessing. Trouble is, they’ve first got to have something to confess. The cop is watching too much tv As if he’s really going to break some international crime ring in a high school hallway.

          • racerrodig says:

            Funny how this guy follows the Fogen “wanna be” trail. And all “after the fact” as well.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            After reading through the M-DSPD reports, the impression I get is that, for some reason this security officer decided to attack Trayvon for no real reason, just to make trouble for him, and probably in the hopes of creating a record that might some how cripple his future.
            This particular officer should be fired and blacklisted, so that the only job he is able to hold is swimming in septic tanks at minimum wage.
            (Sorry I just see to much of this sort of thing)

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Here I’ve added a bullet listing of a google search on “blacks punished more often”, enough there to confirm that this officer was really intent on doing Trayvon some harm to his school record.

            A racist doing what he could to upset another black child? Make them bitter by unjust/unfair process, then sit back and watch that work their nerves and make them distrust or hate authority. How many times have such low level and virtually undetectable “assaults” turned innocent children into disgruntled non-performers and miscreants?

            Face it, accused enough times and even the most innocent child will lose credibility. Then, unfairly subjected to discipline/punishment and you have an extremely poor introduction of the child to the world, which they have not the ability nor information to understand.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Here you can read the M-DSPD report You’ll also want to read Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin from the Miami Herald.

          I believe this is the information you’re looking for:

          “In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f—.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          When my other comment comes out of moderation, because it has three links to the information you require, you’ll see how suspect is the information released in the M-D SPD reports.

          Again (for your convenience from the Miami Herald an excert:)

          In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f—.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

          First of all, I’d guess that the report is bogus because use of “WTF” in a public place, does not fit Trayvon’s profile. Nor does destruction or defacing public property. Those are characteristics a different personality type, with a different up bringing and a child who is at least a little antisocial and disgruntled. Trayvon exhibits none of these characteristics.

          Secondly, if the event is being viewed on cctv, there should be a recording of it, no excuses for the absence or loss of this evidence is acceptable. Whenever cctv’s are the subject of reportable incidents they must be, and are, preserved as a matter of routine. Thus the officers purported failure to act immediately upon his claim, of an observed infraction, says that he’s attempting to explain and excuse, the failure to preserve the proof. There is no reason for this, nor does his procedures allow him to delay the investigation/apprehension of delinquents who have committed reportable acts.

          Third, for the officer to arrive a day later at the conclusion that he will now search for evidence, connected to an event he avoided documenting. Means that this officer is taking unlawful actions for the purposes of denigrating a victim without proof or reason.

          The conclusion is, since Trayvon and his parents are being cause pain and suffering, as well as mental anguish, because these salacious and undocumented claims were recorded and released to the public after his unlawful death at the hands of a NW turned vigilante. The institutions responsible should be made to pay heavy penalties for failure to properly supervise it’s staff and their operations.

          Officers do not get to search your car, home or person, based on unsubstantiated claims that you had been observed breaking some law a day or so ago. Because, clearly, were that the case, we would have no rights to privacy at all.

          • Officers do not get to search your car, home or person, based on unsubstantiated claims that you had been observed breaking some law a day or so ago. Because, clearly, were that the case, we would have no rights to privacy at all.

            You are correct, Lonnie.

            The applicable legal rule, is that probable cause to search cannot be based on stale information. There are a few common sense exceptions, such as marijuana grow operations, but they do not apply to this case.

            FYI: The SCOTUS has held that students have a diminished right to privacy in their lockers.

      • LeaNder says:

        Thanks Lonnie, exquisite response.

        eerily similar to Fogen’s act, isn’t it?

        Third, for the officer to arrive a day later at the conclusion that he will now search for evidence, connected to an event he avoided documenting. Means that this officer is taking unlawful actions for the purposes of denigrating a victim without proof or reason.

        Strictly in spite of the fact what you write is quite excellent reasoning, and additionally I can understand people’s anger concerning graffiti, I am not completely with you that I would put it beyond Trayvon to do that. I do not think it matters either. Graffiti is a big part of youth culture over here. They recognize each other from the specific fonts they use. I do not at all believe that Trayvon used the words GZ claims but strictly WTF would have made me much less suspicious.

        I went back to Frances Robles’ Miami Herald article yesterday and it confirmed the chronology you hinted at.

        I am also back at the suspicion that Charles Hurley may well have tried to stop his officers from criminalizing youth to the extend they loved to do.

        I just wrote a comment over at the CTH, not heading fauxy’s advise to use a different aka there.

        Thanks again, very much appreciated. And very helpful indeed. 😉

        PS: concerning graffiti. There was a case not too long ago in England, I think, where a real estate firm tried to take off one really good graffiti by a pretty famous guy in the scene by now. People do in fact protest that the graffiti is taken off and sold by auction to the highest bidder. Had I been born early with my slightly artistic inclinations, I am not sure if I wouldn’t have done it myself. I painted cars for friends in my youth, that’s not very different. You move beyond the canvas.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’ll do both of these answers here:
          1. Professor says:
          “FYI: The SCOTUS has held that students have a diminished right to privacy in their lockers.”

          Agreed, but the target of this search was Trayvon’s backpack, I don’t see a reference to his school locker. Additionally, I find the matter so configured from a law enforcement point of view, I’m led to believe that this is more falsehood and contrivance than found fact.
          The officer does not respond to an infraction, he claims to witness on cctv, where there should be a record/video, but waits until the next day to respond? Claims that a graffiti was committed goes unsubstantiated by the officers own design. Yet carried to another day to be misused as probable cause? Seriously, no judge would allow this at all, there is nothing at all acceptable about the entire case the officer makes, That makes it misconduct rather than law enforcement.

          I’d certainly like to see what a civil court jury would do, if the police are unable to produce the cctv evidence, since it is their own design that gets rid of this evidence. I suspect they’d be toast!


          LeaNder says:
          “I am not completely with you that I would put it beyond Trayvon to do that. “

          I would be with you on suspecting him, were it not for the even more likely fact that, if Trayvon had done this WTF graffiti, this isn’t a lone action, there would most likely be Trayvon’s “tag” in plenty of other places around the school, and the officer would know of it and point to it. Because it’s a single event, supposedly witnessed on cctv, where it should be recorded and could have been saved as proof positive, makes it unlikely that this claimed infraction ever actually occurred.

          In other words, you don’t go through the expect of providing security with a costly cctv system for them to use to fight crime, then allow them to totally ignore it, while citing it as the source of their knowledge. Since he said he saw the act on cctv, he must produce his evidence or be accused of making false accusations.

          I say he made a false accusation for the purpose of doing harm to Trayvon’s reputation! Sorry, I cannot pull these punches. The MDSPD which allowed this officer to operate in this fashion, creating salacious written records without proof positive he claims was available, needs to be resoundingly repudiated by the strongest means possible, because it deals with the inequitable treatment of black children which is itself well documented.

          • racerrodig says:

            In my day if someone wrote on a locker, and many students did, if they were found out to do it they got…..”here’s some cleaner, here’s a sponge……time’s awastin'”

            “….oh and if you do it again, we’ll send a letter home about it”

            The last thing the school board is allowed to do is hinder your education for something minor.

          • LeaNder says:

            Thanks Lonnie, I appreciated your responses. Again brilliant point concerning the graffiti. I had some exchanges with sundance over at the Treehouse I did profit from your statements in that context. Since you probably don’t like to be mentioned there I could not give you a hat tip.

            In any case the closer you look, sundance referred to a statement supposedly by Hadley, which turned out to be from the interview of William Tagle. Now, this guy recounts his conversation with Darell Dunn after having been contacted by FDLE and he clearly connects the weed event, for which Trayvon supposedly was suspended in February 2012 to the supposedly attached jewelery report. Remember that event supposedly happened in Oct. 2011. The closer you look the murkier it gets.

            We may additionally have to deal with a lot of hearsay.

            I am with you concerning Darell Dunn and some of the others, now I take a new look what chain of events the others Hadely and Fox talk about. If they do at all. Robles of course must have relied on Dunn’s report.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Now this is where we need Malisha. I’m reading that officer Dunn is saying that there were a lot of drug arrests going on in the school at that time. So then, why would they go after Trayvon’s empty baggies, if they had so many bigger fish to fry? Wouldn’t the prudent thing to do be to watch him? Try to catch him in possession of some quantity? That’s what police usually do, they let the small stuff slide because it wastes time and resources and doesn’t amount to much in the end. While catching people with significant quantity gives them the leverage to squeeze for so much more.

            So, to hear Dunn put it, the MDSPD would have their hands full to overflowing, with little need or time for nuisance matters.

            Now the autopsy report shows Trayvon had so little TCH in his blood that he could have gotten it from simply walking through an area where pot was being smoked. While Trayvon’s demeanor and bent is more towards the religious side, which would make him an “outsider” to hipsters and drug users. He was, after all, in a car with his cousin when his cousin went to the story to buy a black and mild. Trayvon waited outside and did not ask for one. Hardly the image of a pot smoker.

            I think that it’s quite possible that these same empty envelops used against Trayvon, were possibly being used against other kids at the school. If so, I’d expect the record of the school SPD would probably contain a whole lot of allegations against kids, found in possession of empty baggies. Now wouldn’t that be a proverbial “kick in the head”, eh?

            Maybe we can find some org with enough clout and position, like a John Hopkins research team to go through the MDSPD records. I’m pretty sure there’s a whole lot of ugliness to be found in there, and… I’m just going to take a really, really, really wild guess; it’s going to be against black kids in the main.

          • LeaNder says:

            While Trayvon’s demeanor and bent is more towards the religious side, which would make him an “outsider” to hipsters and drug users.

            We always need Malisha, but I have a hard time to embrace that image of Trayvon. I honestly cannot see him this way. But maybe I am not American enough to do so. I have not met a single religious outsider as a teenager or young adult, so maybe I am missing the experience, and thus am unable to understand. Youth and religion, maybe if there is a rigid religious background in the family. But that is not my grasp of either of his parents. He may have been in search to find his own place in the world and strictly I guess that assumes curiosity and interest in other approaches beyond one’s own parents. I wondered about the wood chain he wore on some images.

            I prefer somehow DeeDee’s answer to the question what he was like: funny”. Religious people tend to be more serious and somber.

            Sorry, I write this with all respect. I guess the main source of my resistance to simply embrace this image is that it would make him something different than just a normal youth, like you and me once were. Understand?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            When I said “religious” I was not intending to mean fanatical or anything close. By religious, I simply meant that he was aware of religious teachings and would, more often than not, abide by the rules gently. That would be enough to keep him away from willful or wanton behavior. My guess is, because he doesn’t frequent convenience stores, it’s less likely that he smokes weed. He appears to have a great respect and love for his father, so I don’t see him rebelling that way. He’s happy with his friends and they’re happy with him, so he’s no need to search for additional stimulus. His time is occupied with his girlfriend and perhaps video games, school work, math and his aptitude for machines. His father makes good money and is generous, so Trayvon is under none of the pressures that usually cause teens to “spread their wings” before they’re really ready.

            In a way he’s more sheltered than not. So I just don’t see him having any fun engaging in anti social hi-jinks. So, that’s where I am, doubting he’d do any of these things he’s being accused of, then I discover that the process that led to and surrounded the claims were themselves rogue, “ugly” to use the MDSPS own term, and the record and it’s story is hopelessly flawed. Exactly what I’d expect to find if my guesses about Trayvon were true!

            Remember, I didn’t say Trayvon was a good kid, then go looking for evidence of it. I looked at the history in what they presented and tried to divine Trayvon’s demeanor. I found it to be gentle and satisfied.

            I stated that these claims of school infractions could be true, but I felt they were unlikely for Trayvon’s personality.

            Finally I got to look at the records of testimony about how these records came to be, and that’s when I discovered that, exactly as I would expect, the MDSPD people themselves were calling the reports “ugly”, and it is easy to see why, given the stories they tell.
            So their own records are not what they should be, the stories are not credible and don’t reflect procedures followed or rights and rules observed. Nothing is based on fact or collected or recorded or preserved evidence. They must even admit that the 15 day suspension was based on little more than a guess and a hunch without any basis for making either.

            Had they observed Trayvon’s rights and/or followed their own procedures Trayvon would be alive today! Instead they caused his travel and built a baseless but salacious record to be painfully used against him.

          • LeaNder says:

            While Trayvon’s demeanor and bent is more towards the religious side, which would make him an “outsider” to hipsters and drug users.

            We always need Malisha, but I have a hard time to embrace that image of Trayvon. I honestly cannot see him this way. But maybe I am not American enough to do so. I have not met a single religious outsider as a teenager or young adult, so maybe I am missing the experience, and thus am unable to understand. Youth and religion, maybe if there is a rigid religious background in the family. But that is not my grasp of either of his parents. He may have been in search to find his own place in the world and strictly I guess that assumes curiosity and interest in other approaches beyond one’s own parents. I wondered about the wood chain he wore on some images.

            I prefer somehow DeeDee’s answer to the question what he was like: funny”. Religious people tend to be more serious and somber.

            Sorry, I write this with all respect. I guess the main source of my resistance to simply embrace this image is that it would make him something different than just a normal youth, like you and me once were. Understand?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Like I’ve said, the M-DSPD and the County and School district need to be sued. It’s not every day you get a case that’s high profile enough to go after the little stuff that usually falls by the wayside, and have a good chance of making a very big difference.

            We already know that in schools where administrators and other authorities already have a pretty free hand, that blacks are being punished more frequently and harshly than other students. Here is a very good chance to push back and hard, it need to be taken post haste.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I just doubt that his first and only effort at graffiti would be caught under such bogus circumstances. Way to much coincidence for me, especially when there’s a human hand in the mix, with a desire to contrive just such an effect.

          Trayvon had an aptitude for mechanics and he handled math well, that’s hardly a mind that’s going to be involved in artistic pursuits.

      • LeaNder says:

        had I been born less early or later, I meant of course.

        But you really should write about that on your blog or on Xena’s for that matter about it. That’s exquisite reasoning. I admittedly haven’t looked much beyond the original documents served to the public by the CTH. It’s the type of questions I would like to see going more public.

        Interesting. If I get the name of the SRO = School Resource Officer right, “Darell Dunn” no trace of him on the web in combination with either SRO or School Resource Officer. Quite a few Darell Dunn’s in Florida’s public records.

      • LeaNder says:

        Remember, I didn’t say Trayvon was a good kid, then go looking for evidence of it. I looked at the history in what they presented and tried to divine Trayvon’s demeanor. I found it to be gentle and satisfied.

        Not too long ago I wrote to Malisha: You cannot ever take experience out of perception. Meaning, in case you don’t understand. I can only only formed my image of Trayvon based on my own experience at that age and the little we know by now. I am not pretending that I am even close. I would need to talk with family and friends about him. Maybe someone will write about him one day.

        I have absolutely no doubt that Trayvon was a good kid, but for me that is not the same as a model boy either. For me, the model boy, if I at all met them at that age, were more suspicions than impressive, obeying rules without ever questing them.

        I seriously doubt a normal boy can in a difficult stage as that between childhood and adulthood just function to rigid rules. You cannot ever take the German out of me in that context. I was much more suspicious of people that conformed to rules that made no sense, without ever daring to ask questions about them.

        Youth is a time where you develop your own identity, your own set of values, and that means questioning some of what is offered to you. And exploring the limits occasionally.

        Being a model boy and being a teenager almost seem to exclude each other for me. The stage between childhood and early adulthood is a not necessarily an easy time. Neither for the parents and neither for the kids themselves.

        I have met two people who rigidly conformed to rules and adult’s demands functioning like little cogs in a wheel that developed serious psychological issues after they had achieved everything their parents expected from them. In a way both had to relive their youth at a later stage, and find out, “who they really were” and what “they” really wanted themselves. One had to turn really, really ill to realize.

        “Good” for me is something abstract an ideal and not a good description for any living human being. What else? Sensitive, curious, funny, communicative, helpful close to his family and cousins … I think a teacher said about him he showed talent and creativity in writing, I kept that in mind since math and essay writing were among my favorites at school. That’s why it sticked, I guess.

        I stated that these claims of school infractions could be true, but I felt they were unlikely for Trayvon’s personalitory.

        I have no problem at all, to see Trayvon as a good boy and someone that has been suspended from school repeatedly. I was frequently myself, and to this very day i do not regret anything I did, quite the opposite, I think I was right and they were wrong. The first time I was suspended since it was forbidden for girls to wear trousers in summer, which was an unwritten order by our principal, the only dress code in my school days.

        Now this is part of the forbidden garments on Dr. Michael Krop high school’s dress code:

        hats, shorts, culottes or pajama attire, capri lenght pants, dresses or skirt of any kind, shirts or blouses that expose the shoulders, dresses or blouses with spaghetti straps, scarves, sweat bands, stocking caps, bandanas or headbands, sleeveless shirts or tank tops on males.

        Finally I got to look at the records of testimony about how these records came to be, and that’s when I discovered that, exactly as I would expect, the MDSPD people themselves were calling the reports “ugly”, an

        There are allegations by some officers that chief Charles Hurley demanded they falsify police reports. There is a further charge against him that he increased the numbers of pupils that had to undergo forced psychological treatment via the Baker act to bring down the crime numbers in the school. Not that turning kids into psychological case is any better than criminalizing them. It’s simply an effort to push responsibility and numbers somewhere else. Daryll Dunn, who wrote the report about Trayvon, claims he was forced to change his report about Trayvon. Sundance claims that he will have his testimony soon.

        I had never once in my life had my school bag searched, I have no idea what it would have felt like to me to be under constant police surveillance while at school either. That’s the distinct feeling the reading left me with. And for these officers crime is crime, including graffiti, and obviously kids are much more easy to hunt then the more experienced adult criminals out there.

        I don’t think we can tell by now what this is all about.

        In any case it feels that BDLR claimed they looked into matters, and he seem to have concluded there is not much to it. Not that it matters much in our case really.

        Even if I did not smoke weed at his age, I don’t think he would be in any way a bad person had he tested it since friends did too. It wouldn’t harm my image of a “good” Trayvon in the least.

        Fact a simply good and model boy would bore me just as much as the image of an evil one over at the CTH disgusts me. I do not in the least feel forced by their efforts to simply move in the opposite direction. But I surely would love to know more about Trayvon from family and friends. Maybe one day we all will.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Anyway… I don’t have Trayvon following rigid rules without question. What I have is Trayvon not being concerned with the rules, because they in no way impacted what his interests were. A student, for example, interested in chemistry, would hardly be concerned about the school dress code. If such a student were to rebel you’d probably need a good understanding of chemistry to detect it. Such is life!

          Hurley’s department had some serious problems and he was trying to correct them. The “charges” that resulted in Trayvon being suspended were the result of some very poor and very suspect security work. I would bet that more of the suspensions at that school and other schools policed by the MDSPD were also the result of shoddy security work, illegal searches and false claims.

          Trayvon was not “a troubled kid”, he was a child under attack by nefarious security actors. I actually believe that the charges made against Hurley were spurious as well. The facts show that the MDSPD is worthy of intense scrutiny for the sloppy work they’ve preformed.

  27. cielo62 says:

    TRy again~ The Zidiots are clueless enough to indeed see that request as the anticipated “immunity motion” they’ve been waiting (and paying)for.

    • That would not be an immunity hearing because such a motion is common to all criminal trials, regardless of the charge or defense.

      I realize you know that from your snarky comment. I just want to make sure everyone understands that there will be no immunity hearing during the trial.

    • Rachael says:

      Yep cielo62, you’ve got them pegged.

  28. tryagainplease12 says:

    I’m thinking maybe after the prosecutors rest there case he may ask for all charges to be dropped because he may think they haven’t proved their case, which would be a immunity hearing in there minds.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      lol, any mind that can think AFTER the trial has begun that now was are having a hearing on whether there should be a trial is a rather out of touch with reality mind.

      an immunity from trial hearing would OBVIOUSLY and ONLY happen BEFORE the trial.

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