Monday, April 22, 2013
I write today regarding whether Tamerlan Tsarnaev was killed while in police custody, naked, and handcuffed with his hands behind his back. I was not aware of this dispute until I got up this morning and reviewed last night’s comments to yesterday’s post about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. As all of you probably know, police have identified the two brothers as the Boston Marathon bombers.
Tamerlan (26), now deceased, is the older brother; Dzhokhar (19) is the younger brother. Police arrested him Friday night. They are holding him in a hospital where he is being treated for a gunshot wound to the throat.
Apparently, police have started interrogating him without advising him of his Miranda rights to remain silent and to be represented by counsel, even though he is intubated, medicated and listed in serious condition. This is not a surprise since the Department of Justice announced over the weekend that the interrogation would commence without Miranda warnings pursuant to the public-safety exception to the Miranda rule. I have already explained why I believe that is a bad idea and will not revisit that issue in this post.
Now to the controversy.
Tamerlan was reportedly shot by police during a shootout in which Dzhokhar escaped in a vehicle after running over Tamerlan and dragging him 30 or 40 feet.
Dzhokhar was reportedly driving a vehicle that he and Tamerlan had carjacked.
There is a CNN video that shows a naked male with his hands cuffed behind his back being escorted to and seated in the back seat of a patrol vehicle. That man does not appear to have any injuries and he looks like Tamerlan.
The video was presented here together with a gruesome still photo of a corpse riddled with bullet holes and slashes to the torso. That photograph also looks like Tamerlan.
When viewed together I believe a viewer might reasonably conclude that Tamerlan is displayed in the video and still photograph. If that is true, then it would appear that the police may have murdered Tamerlan.
However, later reports this weekend indicate that the naked man being placed in the back seat of the patrol vehicle was the driver of the vehicle that Tamerlan and Dzhokhar carjacked. If that turns out to be true, then the story was false and should be disregarded.
I lack sufficient information to answer the question I posed in the title, but it’s certainly looking like the viral story is false.
However this turns out, I think it’s important for us to realize how easy it is to fool people with photos and videos. We should already have learned that lesson with the two cell phone photos of the defendant’s face and the back of his head that show injuries not readily apparent in photos taken at the station house a few hours later in decent lighting by a professional photographer with good equipment.
I will end this post with a request. Please do not embed gruesome images in comments. Instead, bracket the link and provide a warning so that viewers will have the opportunity to decide if they want to view the image, which they can do by copying the link and pasting it into their browser.
Carry on.
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Thank you,
Fred
H/T to Ay2Z for embedding this video in the comments:
This video is safe to watch.
EDIT: Looks like the gruesome death photo is being systematically removed from the internet.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I got a link from Linda Camp MD that two of the FBI agents involved in the case died in an accident. She has also stated some of the photos of victims missing limbs in the bombing were staged there was not enough blood. This was on a yahoo group “swines” run by megasociety.org member Richard May and “zoo_no_facts” run be her. http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130524008-fbi-dzokhar-accident.html
New post up:
Police violated the Fourth Amendment in Watertown house to house searches
RIP Ritchie…..you have your freedom now
LESSON: Your car gets hijacked. If you don’t want to be paraded around on camera naked and handcuffed, don’t tell the cops about the hijacking.
Dzhokhar ran from the car bleeding. So they have dogs that can sniff bombs (no matter what they’re made of) but no dogs that can follow a trail of blood? And they saw which way he ran, so why the house to house searches in the other direction? It looks like they were keen to feel they were doing something, instead of thinking about it. (Like the ones in the Dorner case who felt they were doing something by “searching” by knocking on doors).
How close DID they get to killing the suspect? who was unable to speak to reply to their loud hailers? who was injured enough he probably used all his last strength to stand up and raise his shirt? who had NOT MOVED or done anything to threaten to solitary elderly resident who first discovered him, nor tried to run when that person moved away? I mean, if someone is unconscious or paralysed, are they going to shot them dead for failing to obey instructions? if someone only has one arm, will some cop shoot him for failing to raise BOTH hands in the air?
The mother claims Tamerlan rang her the day before to say the FBI had rung him to say he’s a suspect. IF TRUE wouldn’t it have been better to QUIETLY wait outside his apartment and grab him there?
A lot of this makes no sense to me. The bombing makes more sense than the response, honestly (in a weird school-shooting kind of way).
aussie, I was surprised to see a photo of D climbing out of the boat on his own steam. Thought the same as you, unable to do much of anything before seeing that he was capable of getting out on his own.
aussie, here’s the photo link from NY Times
@Aussie,
“Sniffer dogs” are scent-specific trained — drugs, explosives; then there are bloodhounds given a scent to respond to. and follow.
Dogs trained for explosives ignore blood and bomb-squad dogs are only looking for certain explosives’ scents. Same as drug sniffers.
I learned this vividly decades ago, working with the LA Sheriff’s office who were involved training dogs to sniff out marijuana, which at that time was packed in bricks. They used a burlap-covered brick of weed. I was with United Air Lines then (when it had 3 names) and when we got a bomb threat we had the aircraft taxi up to old Mines Field terminal across the runway from LAX. (MountainManPat will recall this locale). .First thing we checked was the wheel-wells for plastique. And by the end of the evening, all the luggage.
For the heck of it we took the young new grass-sniffin’ pooch out to do his thing. Predictably, he fixated on some really grungy college kids’ duffel bags, redolent of old laundry being lugged down from Oakland for mom to launder. While these guys all looked like tokers, there was not a shred or filament of grass anywhere. And also, did that dog love gym shoes!
So over a month’s time we took that dog out on trial runs and while he never found any grass he was great for old ratty sweat-clothes and athletic shoes. (Scared the student-passengers something fierce!) Also, unfortunately, this dog ignored real weed when it was found. So, he was a washout, and the Deputy-trained program was abandoned for those run by specialty dog trainers.
My contact decided to discard the grass and cut off the burlap.
Voila! The reason for the dog’s scent-specific fix: mold. He had slobbered into the burlap wrap, and that dampened the inside. It mildewed. To that dog, the only thing he was trained for WAS old damp clothing that had sat for a month and started to turn … well, kinda fuzzy inside. And smelled like old gym sox & hightops.
Back to the (alleged) Marathon Bombers. I am amazed by all the nit picking of law enforcement’s efforts. Logistically, this was a HUGE response, integrating many, many levels of police agencies. Within a week, they had their two suspects. The residents of Watertown breathed a long, thankful, collective sigh of relief. No civilians were killed or injured, and no law enforcement officers either – except, as alleged, by the suspects.
As Carly Simon liked to sing, “Nobody Does It Better … “
Back to the question about the video with the man in custody.
Prof posted a link to the criminal complaint filed against D.T in his latest article. This document gives some further insight into whether the naked male in the video, could be the victim of the carjacking. This, combined with the video taken in Watertown of the reporter named Gabe, as much as eliminates the possibility that the man in custody could be the victim of the carjacking. Gabe describes his reporting location nearby on Dexter and Nichols in Watertown.
From the ‘complaint’, paragraph 21, we have a description of what happened once the two bombers took the car and carjacking victim, to the ATM, followed by a drive to
The ‘complaint’ document goes on to describe that the vehicle was located a short time later L.E. in Watertown, with a reference to Dexter and Laurel Streets.
What we see on the media video clip of the naked male in custody, is not described at all in the complaint. We know from Gabe and Drew’s comments, that there were a HUGE number of police officers around the area, which centered on a 4 block area nearby.
There is a hole in the description of events if that ‘suspect’ is indeed T.T..
If not, then who? Cannot be the victim of carjacking UNLESS the victim was transported from one scene to the other, stripped, ID’d by FBI and interviewed there. (no need to strip him after they have already transported him– makes no sense).
Google maps show a few routes from the Cambridge location to the Watertown location, about a 4 mile drive on one of the direct routes.
The mystery continues.
Could there be a gag on the video which ended abruptly and a gag on any witnesses, including reporters, to the events that followed?
Unlikely.
ay2z~Â In the heat of the moment, people don’t get sequences correct. Â http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-usSBYJIfc
Lol! Could be onto something there.
Just to add a little more to the mystery.
Why did the Tsarnaev brothers have to hijack a car?
And why were they out of money?
Stealing an ATM card and using it to withdraw money is a really stupid stunt guaranteed to get you busted.
How did the car owner escape from two armed men?
It seems, on the face of it, that the victim escaped because they let him.
If they let the victim escape, did they do this to get attention, to have the stolen vehicle reported quickly, same with an ATM ‘attempt’ (complaint doc suggests it was just an attempt).
Add to that series of questions, why go into a gas/convenience store where there are cameras everywhere? A series of exposures to ensure they are able to get attention and go down quickly?
Or just plain stupid. They may have wanted to go down in action, which might explain the car attack on TT by D.
@ay2z
Re: “Or just plain stupid. They may have wanted to go down in action, which might explain the car attack on TT by D.”
Maybe they were just lunkheads.
Doesn’t take much skill to put BBs and nails in a pressure cooker.
Two more cowardly losers looking for their15 minutes of importance..
Probably just two guys gone insane. Remember Hale-Bop? Jonestown? This is just more of the same insanity, only turned in another direction. People lose their minds all the time, we don’t hear about it, because most of them choose to do non-lethal things, so they go away quietly.
professor says
answer to all — they were dumb, arrogant enough to think they would not be caught, and unprepared. they did not even think ahead enough to either get out of town or keep cash on hand to accomplish that task.
i would guess they hijacked a car out of desperation and because after they shot the MIT cop, they did not want to continue to use their own vehicle.
yes, stealing another’s ATM card is dumb – we all know there are security cameras there. these bozos clearly had not yet learned enough about security cams.
the car owner did manage to escape when the brothers stopped at a gas station and exited the vehicle, leaving the vehicle owner INSIDE it. this gave him means to escape as well as identify them.
DUMB AND DUMBER
FauxMcCoy~ Zealots: passionate but not too bright.
@ Cielo,
Info coming out now is that Tamerlan’s wife worked two jobs, 80 hours a week in senior home health care – one of the most physically demanding, stressful, grinding, unappreciated, low-paying, barely-minimum-wage jobs in our society today. The only support of her husband and child.
Tamerlan stayed home with the 3-year old daughter.
(Except when jetting off to Chechnya)
Where did he get the travel funds?
Produced no income or sustenance.
Spare time spent tinkering with bombs.
A real hero, right?
P-Mom~ I agree with TT’s uncle: he was a real LOSER. Sound like anyone we know? Leeching off of someone else? Carrying out “God’s plan”?
@Cielo –
And friendless, too.
(Osterman & Taaffe don’t count.)
Getting high after learning they were ID’d, getting some help to ready themselves for the final action?
“Why did the Tsarnaev brothers have to hijack a car?”
Clue might be in the use of two cars driving ‘tandem’ towards the first officer they spotted before getting out to begin firing.
That would give them more cover, block the whole roadway from frong and behind, put all their eggs in 2 baskets, and a Mercedes has better protection than other cars?
Just to add a little more to the mystery.
“Why did the Tsarnaev brothers have to hijack a car?” They knew it was only a matter of time….they saw their faces on TV and knew that the cops would know their normal cars.
“And why were they out of money?” I think they didn’t plan out things too well, like not knowing every nowadays has a camera and that the FBI could ID them so quickly.
“Stealing an ATM card and using it to withdraw money is a really stupid stunt guaranteed to get you busted.” Only gives you a short head start until they start to track you from the withdraws.
“How did the car owner escape from two armed men?” He gave an interview on CNN, They asked him where he was from and he said he was Chinese. He asked if they were going to kill him and they said no. He didn’t believe them but said they needed gas and when they pulled into the gas station the younger brother went inside and the older brother started to fill the vehicle. He saw that as his chance to escape. In one move he said he undid his seatbelt, unlocked the door and then ran like hell. He said the older brother tried to grab him but he was quicker. They were able to track the car because the owner left his cell phone behind in the car.
towerflower~ thank you for adding reason to the quell the conspiracy frenzy.
ay2z — i was watching live footage at the time. i do not believe this is a mystery, but it is clearly not explained in the charging document.
at one point, LE thought they might have had a 3rd suspect. his coloring/features were somewhat similar. he was held at gunpoint, on the ground for some length of time, then forced to strip to show he had no ‘suicide vest’ on. he spent some time in the back of a cruiser and was eventually let go. reporters were saying that he was an innocent bystander who happened to be in the wrong place at a very wrong time. i cannot tell you what his name was, it was not revealed on the newscasts i was watching. an internet search might unearth something though.
i in no way believe that naked guy was one of the suspected bombers, just a very unlucky passerby.
thanks, faux, makes sense that a look-alike might have been checked out. I did see a photo of a man spread eagle on the ground, didn’t know the location or when.
Explains why the ‘maybe’ suspect would have similar general features.
Here is an eye-witness account from a residence on Dexter St. She said she saw a police SUV run into TT, then he was shot several times.
Youtube is really slow, eventually it played through.
I take it that this person is not either of the brother bombers. So he might be a candidate for the naked man in custody situation? He has brown hair, striped pants, he is spread eagle with hands tipped up, nothing in them, and his ankles are crossed.
If this is after TT was killed and D escaped, he could have been mistaken for D?
ay2z asks
yes, it is that person in the pants with the stripes that i am positive was the naked person shown. for the life of me, i do not know why any journalist covered that though. just as i do not understand or condone a photo of the body of tamerlan (if that is in fact him).
what i cannot help you with is the timeline questions because the press was being kept out of where shots were happening. i have not looked through youtube videous, except for the home search one that was posted here. i cannot verify anything regarding police statements versus citizen statements.
Faux, I don’t know abut the credibility of this website, haven’t figured out what ‘Sligo’ is yet, but there’s a story about one man who could have been in the photo laying in the street, and a second man standing with him, detained much longer. The second man could be a possibility of a match for the naked, cuffed man the propagandists were using.
http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=25434
@ ay2z
Sligo is a County in Ireland. Those guys are used to this stuff. If you don’t get killed, it’s no-never-mind. A foine lad he was!
Dennis says:
April 22, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Adam Lanza’s Bushmaster M4 was found IN HIS CAR TRUNK.
yet the floor of the school was littered with .223 casings.
This is a confirmed fact from multiple news stations.
That is all I need to say to prove Sandy Hook was a conspiracy.
********
Sorry, Dennis, but you’re going to need a lot more. I also heard several media reports that Lanza’s Bushmaster was found in his car trunk early on the morning of the atrocity at Sandy Hook, but unfortunately, those ‘multiple news sources’ failed to confirm their ‘fact’ before they reported it.
What evidence do you have to support your conspiracy theory that someone other than Adam Lanza killed his mother and then took him to the school and murdered him there? There were some survivors of his massacre, remember.
New post up:
Update on Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s initial appearance today
@Professor Leatherman and class –
What I am seeing here on this blog is almost complete disapproval of the immense law enforcement response to the fatal, multiple-injury bombings by domestic terrorists. The bombs were positioned at civilian targets – attacks guaranteed to have scores of victims of all ages.
My personal reaction is to marvel how smoothly the various operations proceeded, with so many different police agencies from local, State and Federal levels all working together – probably over a thousand officers, 98% of them armed with guns drawn — but no accidental injuries or fatalities from “friendly fire.”
These guys – and gals – were disciplined!
It did not surprise me that they were cheered on the Watertown streets after the second suspect was captured. Cheered, and wildly appreciated!
The residents’ sense of fear was replaced by their sense of cheer.
The two brothers, allegedly the domestic terrorists, seemed to have given no thought to the likelihood of their capture. Vicious – but dumb, and dumber. The did not kill the SUV driver, he reports, “because he was not an American.”
We are looking at two men who got the benefit of political asylum from our government – an immigration status that literally many would die for.
Although, at 19, one would not expect the younger to be on his career track, the elder brother, by his mid-twenties, had never accomplished AYYTHING despite being sheltered in America – “the land of opportunity” – for a decade.
Bluntly, this domestic terrorist was simply a disgruntled loser, who was mentoring his kid brother toward the same goal.
I am looking forward to the news report that tells us how these guys made a living, if their parents supported them from abroad, of if US and/or Massachusetts taxpayers paid their living expense. They bought these pressure cookers on OUR nickel????
In contrast to the cop put-downs I am reading here, I am impressed by the attention police paid to identifying two suspects out of the crowd, the use of modern technology to do this, and the enormous input from a concerned public.
The cops apprehended the suspects within ONE WEEK.
I AM THANKFUL. Three cheers to the public safety agencies involved, for a job superbly and professionally done!
@PMom
i have no quarrel with the men in blue ‘just doing their job’ and they did a fine job of restoring the peace from what was chaos, for all the reasons you mentioned.
i do take great issue with my government who would usurp my constitutional rights while on a manhunt for one (1) 19 year old wounded boy.
i hope that is clear.
X2
X3. The bombings were disgusting and callous. I appreciate the hard work done by law enforcment and medical personnel.
It’s some of the political and judicial things done on the way to nabbing the perps that are disturbing. We are a country of laws. You can’t stretch laws and the constitution to suit your purposes or we all lose.
@Faux,
This “one (1) 19 year old wounded boy” was a suspect in the death and injury to over 100 innocent people – with the capability (and, it appears, the weapons and explosives) to continue this destruction.
I would consider him as deadly as a 39-year old.
When there’s a house-to-house search for an assailant considered armed and dangerous, I believe the residents’ right to safety is paramount – as the neighborhood showed by its response.
At 19, he’s not a “boy.”
@PMom who says
i hear you and i understand you. i just ask that you respect my decision to not allow my civil rights to be violated.
clearly, suspect #2 was not a threat at that point and if he had not been discovered after marshall law had been lifted, he would have quietly bled out in a boat and no one else would have been harmed. that is the reality of the situation.
i am clear that i do not believe in conspiracy theories, but i do believe that when situations such as this arise, our government will violate our civil rights unless there is serious pushback. the very existence of the patriot act, gitmo and NDAA prove this fact.
if i did not have children, i would defend my civil rights to whatever degree i felt necessary. not even NYC considered martial law after 9/11, yet last thursday night, boston did and citizens were subjected to warrant-less searches.
you do not have to agree to the same course of action that i would, but i would hope to have your respect, just as i would respect your right to free speech, assembly and religion.
Anyone remember Kent State?
pat asks
i was too young (under 6) and my mom wouldn’t let me go to that our woodstock.
i have faced cops in riot gear in UGLY protests against the ‘desert storm’. i mean national news ugly, the bay bridge closed down, construction sites on fire, and the windows to tiffany’s broken in downtown san francisco. i spent several consecutive nights in the pokey, always let go the next morning, was glad to have the love of my life next to me. no one was shot, thank god, but i saw some pretty ugly stuff, man. for exercising my constitutional rights.
@Faux,
Of course you have my respect, Faux, and I know I have yours, but …
“clearly, suspect #2 was not a threat at that point and if he had not been discovered after marshall law had been lifted, he would have quietly bled out in a boat and no one else would have been harmed. that is the reality of the situation.”
The circumstance you describe above are 20-20 HINDSIGHT. From all reports he was a plenty deadly threat, participating alongside his brother as a willing comrade. (Will add, of course, “allegedly.”) These guys had the weapons, the explosives, and they were fighting in the streets against the cops.
Don’t forget the cop killed earlier Thursday, sitting in his squad car.
From the carnage Monday and the pitched battle Thursday, could anyone advocate that the younger suspect should just be shrugged off, because, “Who knows, the suspet could be discovered a month later as a mass of maggots in the bottom of some guy’s boat?”
If you were in Watertown, would want the cops to forget about the second guy?
pmom
of course not and i never suggested such a thing.
the only thing i am maintaining is that in order for my body or property to be searched, reasonable cause and a warrant is necessary.
i get it that you feel differently, let’s please stop debating. nothing will be resolved other than the fact that we disagree.
fauxmccoy~ you ALWAYS have my respect. AT THE TIME, though, it was unclear and unknown that no one else would have been injured, and there’s the crux of the problem. In hindsight, it appears to be just 2 fringe lunatics. But at the time of September 11, who knew all 3 planes were part of the same plot? Heaven knows that something pretty dramatic would have to be happening for the cops to get permission into MY house.
@ PMom, re:
Sorry, but I beg to differ on that one, because it sounds too much like the Trayvon “thugifiers.” From my viewpoint, a 19-year-old “boy” is often barely (even if randomly legally) distinguishable from a 17-year-old … particularly considering maturation variances among young males. When I see a 19-year-old, I can rather easily see a “boy.”
Sorry Faux……18 year old “boys” are trained to kill….and do….by our government…
pat says
yup, you are right. so do 18 year old women.
i have a bad habit of not considering boys to be men until they are 25 UNLESS they have served in the armed forces. this is just my own personal hangup and i freely admit it.
@Groans,
IF you are a killer at 19, you’re not “a boy.”
In my day, girls were far more sheltered and inexperienced than boys. Nevertheless, at 19 I had two years of college (despite being a high school drop-out), had three years’ corporate work experience, had completed the grueling process of emigration to the US (with all its tedious and demanding bureaucratic documentation) – entirely on my own, without help – and was supporting two other adults.
I am offended that anyone would consider a 19-year old suspect a kid.
19-year olds are only kids if you treat them that way.
If you kill at 19, you have “put away childish things.”
19 truly can be “armed and dangerous.”
fauxmccoy, I agree with you. I think that PMom has forgotten that the U.S. is a nation of laws. We let go of some of our rights and we leave the door open for other rights to be usurped. At least, that is my opinion.
PirhanaMom~ I think the anger is more against the FBI who had at some point did surveillance on the older brother and then just let him go. I, too, was impressed at the lack of bloodshed and NO friendly fire deaths. I bet had this happened in Houston, with so many armed yahoos living here, the death toll would have been horrible as much from the cops as from the armed citizens.
@cielo62
Which is why they don’t have marathon races in Houston. That heat will kill ya. 🙂
@Xena,
@Cielo,
” That heat will kill ya. 🙂 ”
So baaad of you, Xena.
And so superbly good!
PMom….ever camped Death Valley?……….The same experience can be had camping at your local rock quarry on the hottest day of the year….Did it once….
Sad to hear about Joshua Tree the graffiti………..did a lot of hiking and camping there…..in the winter & spring
@ MountainMan,
I don’t think desert temps is “The Heat” Cielo or Xena (or I) have in mind …
Nebber mind then…:\
Xena~ Actually we DO have the Chevron Houston Marathon, which is run in January. It’s the heath doesn’t kill you, the armed yahoos will.
@cielo62.
Ahhh. Thanks for the correction. January in Houston must be what — about 70 degrees? LOL!!
I imagine that Texas and Florida now have a reputation for being on the lookout for folks who like stepping on feet and claiming self-defense when hearing “Ouch.”
@Cielo –
@Xena –
Xena’s “That heat will kill ya!” is one of the great, sly witticisms to emerge from this blog.
Will treasure forever! Ah, Houston …
P-Mom~ Houston is a tough city for me in the summer. The heat, the HUMIDITY, the glare; it makes me sick every year. I need to become a Sun Bird, and go NORTH (WAYYYY) North in the summer!
@Cielo –
New Zealand!
MMP>>>>>>>The Northwest Territories
What you are reading here is not put downs of the police, but political analysis of the matter, the imports and speculations about the laws and how they are being applied. We do have a right, and probably a duty, to not merely accept official machinations, even if they are correct and proper, they are still subject to analysis and opinion, that is the American way. We learn by questioning things.
As Jefferson said: “Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty”, and that vigilance extends into the inspection of everything.
What is true will stand up to scrutiny, what is false will be peeled away. But, it cannot happen if the effort is not made, and the exercise should not be stayed by the emotional cache.
As good a job as the police have done, there still may be room for improvement, that room for improvement cannot be found if no one bothers to look.
New post up:
Open thread on criminal defense attorneys
follow
[http://newsone.com/playlist/afghan-children-killed-by-u-s-led-coalition/1/]
cut and paste. bodies of children wrapped for burial. how is what happened in Boston worse than what we do every day in pakistan, afghanistan, and elsewhere?
Point made
” â€Boston Bombs Were Loaded to Maim,’ a New York Times headline shouted.
U.S. cluster bombs have done the same in places like Afghanistan and Yemen. Shouldn’t we end that hypocrisy? Cluster bombs have been banned since 2010 by a treaty that 81 nations are already party to. Another 27 nations have signed but not yet ratified. The United States is not among the signers, serving rather as the chief opponent of the treaty.”
Tell the President and Congress to sign and ratify the Convention on Cluster Munitions:http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=7784
Two Sides~ Done signed. Thanks.
And hollow point bullets are banned by the Geneva convention as to not be allowed for use in warfare……..
Homeland Security just bought half a BILLION rounds of .40 cal. hollow points………Guess they aren’t gonna be used in a war?
Target practice?
Cluster bombs….HA……WTF is a MIRVed ICBM?
Good question – you’re one of our resident ex-soldiers.
Here are the signers of the Convention on Cluster Munitions
http://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XXVI-6&chapter=26&lang=en
Notice that most all European countries signed it….along with other first world countries.
I can’t think of the last time this country fought an “honorable” war (not that there is any honor in war in the first place) going back to Sherman’s march thru the south……thru the terror bombing of Germany during WWII….Dresden is a perfect example…..Oh yeah…..we nuked a couple cities in Japan too.
And now drones firing missiles into countries we aren’t even at war with…..killing innocents in the process.
This is the land of my birth, and I will fight to defend it……..Would have been nice tho to be born into a more peace loving country….Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland etc.
pat says
amen brother! although i have not served, my husband, brother, father, every generation of menfolk since the revolutionary war. i may not have served, but will tell you that when planes hit the twin towers and i saw it live while nursing a newborn, the first thing i did was get the calendar and count the months and days to know for a fact that my husband’s contractual obligation of inactive reserves had just ended. i may not have served, but i gave what i could and still do and not with some phoney ass magnetic ribbons on the back of my car.
we look around sometimes — wondering if there is a better place for us because the country we both are willing to die for seems to be slipping through our fingers. i wish to god that denmark had a mediterranean climate, because that is what my body needs.
MMP~ Right there with you, sir. America is wonderful! But she CAN and SHOULD be better.
@mountainmanpat
They can’t use it in war because of the Geneva convention so that leaves only one possibly, they are buying that ammunition to use on the American people.
@Dennis.
No, they are buying it to take it out of distribution to the American people. It’s an old method of warfare and was used successfully in Persian Gulf 1 – weapons without ammunition are no good.
Xena~ Thank you for providing a sensible response.
@cielo62
You are welcomed. 🙂
Xena~ Need I mention that conspiracy theories drive me bonkers?
@cielo62.
The late Sherman Skolnick ferreted out information that led to Greylord and the Governor of Illinois being put behind bars. Then Sherman developed a reputation for being a conspiracy theorist. I knew Sherman and there was one Sherman in private, and another Sherman that he presented to the public.
In the spirit of Sherman Skolnick, I will say that for the Boston Marathon bombing to be a great conspiracy, it requires investigation into who was most likely to win the race, and who was most likely that person’s enemy. It would be that person who hired the brothers to build and plant the bombs to prevent there being a winner.
Then we get into the entry fees, who is served the most financial benefit. Can’t stop there. Since the Romney’s have ties in Mass. a great conspiracy must incorporate them and the Mormon church.
Oh — and we can’t leave out look-a-likes. Every great conspiracy where the accused is killed must have a look-a-alike.
@ Xena.
re: “Oh — and we can’t leave out look-a-likes. Every great conspiracy where the accused is killed must have a look-a-alike”
Right. Butt-nekkid.
P-mom- butt-nekked look-alikes? I’ll take Pierce Brosnan please. (He’d make an old dyke like me change for a few hours).
Sent from my iPod
I could post a picture of my butt for comparison if U would like Cielo..
BTW….check Xena’s chat
@MountainMan –
Now, Pat, that’ll scare off the bears!
A Bare butt to scare Bears……yeah I confuse myself a lot…..
@Cielo,
Gotta have you meet my friend Nancy.
A Pierce Brosnan look-alike if I’ve ever seen one!
P-Mom~ NANCY? Look like Pierce Brosnan? or just her butt?? đź‰Â
@ Cielo –
Haven’t seen Nancy’s butt. Not reporting in about Pierce’s.
Discretion is the better part of valor.
P-Mom~ LOL! I needed that laugh! Thanks! Next 2 days are the stress filled days of standardized testing, which I HATE HATE HATE with a passion.
Dennis~ That is just plain baloney. There IS no “war” on American citizens. And the US isn’t too good at following international rules, like the UN; why should they care about a ban on some perfectly good bullets? Now please. I actually like the ancient aliens theory, but THIS conspiracy holds NO water and has NO proof. It’s beginning to sound like the “we haven’t really been to the moon” malarkey.
“Would have been nice tho to be born into a more peace loving country….Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland etc.”
I can agree to that. It gets a bit embarassing, doesn’t it?
Phosphorous is also banned but was used in Falujia.. The US makes its own rules, regardless of international law. An illegal war and illegal weapons. And the national guard is now nationalized for the never-ending war.
One word: Sheeeeple
In regards to Sandy Hook, (and I try NOT to be a conspiracy theorist), but for those who believe OUR government would not do such a thing are exactly what our government wants: Sheeple!
(Follow the masses like a bunch of sheep)
Those are the types that ‘they’ can and will:
Sell a fear so the masses buy their ‘agenda’ hook, line and sinker.
The one thing I found very strange was when Emily Parker’s father went out to give his speech within day(s), and he said, paraphrasing, ‘we don’t harbor any anger toward the shooter’ or ‘we forgive him’ which, was very strange, so soon after, imo.
So, I went reading up on it a bit, which is when I ran across websites created for the victims BEFORE the tragedy. Those have since been scrubbed. How were websites for the victims created BEFORE the tragedy?
Anyone who doesn’t believe it was a push to sell the ‘agenda’ on 2nd Amendment rights and our Constitution, think again.
My #1 question was, and still is…
Who was running out the back of Sandy Hook into the woods???
I seen it as it was unfolding, and then that clip ‘mysteriously’ disappeared from the media as well. It was put on youtube after, so some may say that was added after the fact, but it wasn’t, I seen it that day, and then that clip ‘disappeared.’
So, for those who ‘trust’ our government, and the numerous ‘Executive Orders’ being passed after each of these tragedies, ask yourself, what’s the real ‘agenda?’ Keeping us safe??
Yea right, think again!
Crystal nacht in Germany ring a bell?
Kimmi~ There’s a BIG difference between sheeple and being paranoid. You’ve crossed over into the paranoid department. Indeed, WHAT is the agenda? Sandy Hook was a natural consequence of the gun-loving violent culture of the US PLUS the mental illness HATRED here as well. So were the Aurora and Arizona shootings. There is NO “agenda”. We as a society are reaping what we sowed. It’s TOO EASY to get a gun and it’s TOO HARD to get help for mental illness. Even GZ is an example of this horrible, uniquely American cocktail of firearms and madness.
I remember a liquor store in Riverside Ca.
That also sold ammo…………
“Yeah I’d like a 5th. of Jack Daniels and a box of .357 mag. hollow points”
Then again….in Colorado we have drive thru liquor stores đź
MMP~ Now THERE’S another winning combination! Alcohol and guns. That combo probably accounts for 85% of the shootings just here in the Houston area. Some idiot gets drunk and shoots wife/girlfriend/neighbor/friend/son/ daughter/dog or total stranger. At least he has to go to TWO stores here to get what he needs for that! Progress, huh?
________________________________
Exactly. Yahoo news just reported last month that over 200 innocent people have been murdered by drone strikes in Pakistan by the Obama administration. Yet Obama cries for the children in the Sandy Hook massacre? I’m calling bullshit on Obama’s fake sympathy for the Sandy Hook victims. Alex Jones and his team already exposed the fake tears Obama wiped away from his eye.
Frederick, this should disturb you:
SWAT went door to door searching homes and pulling people out of their homes at gunpoint, without warrants, after the Boston Bombing. Welcome to the police state.
Yes, it does disturb me . . . considerably.
Believe it or not, the FBI had authority to do the same thing on Canadian soil not that many years ago. Without notice or knowledge, they entered private residences where they could view anything when the residents were not there. All with the blessings of Canadian authorities.
I don’t understand why a foreign government was authorized outside their own country, and why Canada could not have provided these security checks for their own country.
I don’t get it, and neither did the residents who learned about the searches after the fact.
Dennis~ That is what martial law means, and in this csae, it was for a PUBLIC benefit. Don’t get your y-fronts in a knot.
The Boston Bombing was another inside job perpetrated by the government.
Here is a picture of the actual bombers:
Here is the exact hat they were wearing:
It has the Punisher skull and on the back it says “Violence does solve problems”.
They are employees of a private military security firm like Blackwater called Craft International.
http://www.thecraft.com/
Supposedly those folks were looking for bombs etc.and were seen scanning for radiation. Kinda makes you wonder.
Oh for pete’s sake, not another conspiracy theory! To what purpose? Does the US have a bone to pick with Chechnya? NO! Why can’t it just be true that one religious zealot went crazy, took his lil brother along and killed people? Loughner acted alone. Lanza acted alone. But because they guys are “foreigners” THEY must indeed be involved in some deep government cell and/or cover up?? PROVE IT!
They may have simply been doing their job and missed the big deal of the day for all we know.
There are no pictures proving the two brothers were involved.
The only pictures that have leaked show shady private security firm people wearing Punisher hats that have a disturbing phrase on the back.
The pictures also prove they were standing RIGHT NEAR the bomb. They also made sure to leave that area before it was detonated. You can see in the first picture I posted, the one Craft employee that had a large backpack on does not have his backpack anymore after the bomb exploded.
Since when do security guards carry large backpacks around, especially ones large enough to put a pressure cooker inside.
Adam Lanza’s Bushmaster M4 was found IN HIS CAR TRUNK.
yet the floor of the school was littered with .223 casings.
This is a confirmed fact from multiple news stations.
That is all I need to say to prove Sandy Hook was a conspiracy.
Dennis~ you are making a fool of yourself. Lanza had MULTIPLE GUNS, some he swiped from his mother. There is NO CONSPIRACY at Sandy Hook.
Lanza died in the school. He had 2 glock pistols. The Bushmaster M4 was in the car trunk and was NOT USED.
These are FACTs. Explain where the .223 casings came from. Glocks don’t shoot .223 rounds.
He also took an AR-15 into the school. He had 3 weapons WITH him and the other in the car. AR-15s can shoot .223s. hence the spent casings for his AR-15 being .223s. No conspiracy.
Dennis, I’m afraid that several things blow a huge hole in your conspiracy theory. For example, aside from the photos of the brothers placing their bombs, the driver of the SUV they hijacked said that one of them told him they’d done the bombing, and the brothers were later engaged in a shootout with police while driving that SUV. Bombmaking materials were reportedly found in their apartment, and the younger brother is now cooperating with interrogators from his hospital bed, explaining how and why they concocted and pulled off their bombing.
@ElCyMoo
@Dennis
The injured runner (now double amputee) identified the photo of one of the suspects WHO PUT THE BAG DOWN ON THE CURB AND LOOKED HIM IN THE EYE – as soon as he came to in the recovery room.
Not many freshly-minted double amputees, Dennis, get involved in US government conspiracies …
PMom says
i cannot stress how much i agree with you. i am unfortunately aware if the ‘story’ of how this amputee figures into the conspiracy theory.
i saw the full length photo of him in a wheelchair with his lower legs obliterated, nothing left there but bone fragments, ashen grey from blood loss, being held in a wheelchair and pushed for dear life by good samaritans. i wish to god i could unsee that photo, it haunts me.
the ‘story’ is that he is a special ops vet, double amputee and an ‘actor’ in this grand conspiracy involving navy seals, private security goons from some haliburton spin-off. nuttier details include an announcement of a ‘bomb drill’ that ‘some people’ claim to have heard just before the blast and the presence of bomb sniffing dogs across the street from the actual bombs who conveniently did not alert their handlers to actual bombs nearby.
if it sounds unbelievable, it is because it is unbelievable. if i had not seen a number of people post such insanity at huffpost, i would not believe that the theory exists at all.
if you want to dive into the pits of hell, go hang out with alex jones at info wars, maybe they clean the story up a bit, but it becomes no more credible.
@ Faux –
Re the conspiracy bingers:
The Devil finds work for idle brains.
And I guess the younger brother cooperating with the FBI and admitting that he was involved doesn’t matter? Guess he’s involved with the conspiracy and is willing to give up his life for the conspiracy and maybe the victim who lost both legs and helped with a description of the bomber was involved too? Why is it that when there is a major event that there always has to be a bigger hidden story behind it?
Because there are always going to be people who will try to use confusion to make themselves the center of attention. There is no way to prohibit misinformation without chilling freedom of speech. So we just have to learn to use our collective noodles to separate the wheat from the chafe
@Tower —
Re: “Why is it that when there is a major event that there always has to be a bigger hidden story behind it?”
Why? Because it inflates the Konspiracy Kaper Kooks with a vast sense of self-importance.
It’s their “Look at me!!!” strategy.
Well that’s completely wrong because they let the driver/ hostage out of the car after 30 min and he went straight to call police at gas station.
i suppose i should not be shocked any more when i read comments on other sites which advocate abandoning the constitution and support vigilante justice. in fact, it is those reasons which bind us together here. it does sadden me however that those who feel the second amendment is paramount, but would happily forgo the rest for reasons that appear like blatant bigotry.
i am not ready to call this a terrorist action, nor one given to entertaining conspiracy theories, yet i suspect that those identified the label ‘suspects’ in this case do deserve that title. it is the desire for justice that sustains me.
as to who is responsible for the death of tamerlan, my husband and i had an interesting conversation last night. we concluded that since the suspect was alive and in custody, that responsibility for his well being was in the hands of his captors.
Faux……
Also remember that they managed to put a whole city on lockdown so to speak…….Martial law?
And conducted house to house searches without warrants or the residents permission…..
There’s alot more at risk than just the second amendment.
yes pat, i have not forgotten. it seems from the interviews that most residents were happy to comply.
my husband and i discussed this for a long time, actually. he is a pure libertarian and i am quite liberal socially, but tend to be conservative fiscally (in order to accomplish socially liberal goals such as a populace that is healthy, well nourished and educated). we are both strict constitutionalists and there is considerable overlap. we enjoy in depth discussions on politics and current events. i rarely go into hardcore specifics on my politics here because i am not convinced it is beneficial. i am doing so now because of the issues you raised and the conversation i had with my husband.
we were very curious about what would happen if a resident were to say ‘no’ to this search. what, if any, consequences would there be if search teams observed contraband — be they drugs, weapons, or shoes of endangered species. (we do go in-depth.)
we debated on what we would do… and dayum that is hard to answer. my instinct would be to say, ‘of course, may i see your search warrant?’ but god knows where that would get me. i suppose we would both be willing to go to jail for that, but for the fact that we have 2 children at home (ages 12 and 15) and that would jeopardize their welfare.
i am disabled, although i rarely need emergency care — sometimes i do. needing care is often precipitated by stressful situations (PTSD). what if i had to refuse to ‘shelter in place’? what if i just did not want to?
they really have you over a barrel, don’t they? i do not like it one damn bit.
apologies if this is long and/or dull. it’s the kind of thing that can push most of my buttons.
faux mccoy~ Like you, I like to be free from authority types. BUT had those folks come to my door, looking for someone responsible for multiple deaths and possibly planning multiple more, I would have said HELL YES! Let me get my flashlight and help! Sometimes the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.
I would have called 911 to come get their uninvited bodies out of my living room………..nuff sed
mmpat says
thank you pat, i knew that you would understand. i suspect fred might as well.
i am a strict constitutionalist. my father nailed a copy of the thing to our dining room wall and quizzed us on it regularly since i was 6. my husband and i keep a copy in all vehicles and on our persons. my property rights are as critical to me as my right to worship or speek as i please and like you, i am willing to use my second amendment rights to guarantee it and/or go to jail as i did during gulf war protests in san francisco. my only concern at this point is doing anything that would jeopardize my children or my parenting rights, which i am sure you can understand.
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Ben Franklin
Please don’t misunderstand me….I was speaking of the bombers…..NOT the cops…..
pat says
understood, of course.
husband is ex military, i am a mere cowgirl – but it takes skill to shoot on horseback. i consider our skills to be equal. i have already faced down one sorry sack that is lucky to be alive. he is simply lucky that the lock held on my door before the sheriff showed up.
the cops, i would not allow to enter without a warrant and would risk arrest for doing so – but for the fact that i have 2 teens in my home. once they are on their own, it would be a trip to the pokey for me if they insisted.
i am not gonna shoot any cops – did not mean to imply anything of the sort.
And I’m waitin to see if I have to deal with that Bear again from last summer…..Hopefully someone got him last winter….wasn’t just my place….all up and down the mountain…..even getting into dumpsters in town….Got a shed that looks like a quilt from the patching I had to do last summer…..Had a Cinnamon sow and her cub around here quite often….climb a tree and take a nap….never were a problem.
pat — whichever is your preference, i hope it is yours.
i am no longer ranching where i grew up. my dad died 2 years ago and we sold the place, so i don’t even have to help out any more. i did get his winchester .30-.30 though (1967 canadian centennial model) and a couple of nice stetsons, so i’ve got that at least.
Personally…..I don’t want to harm it……it tries breaking into the cabin?……well that’s a different story…..as a side note Hornet & Wasp spray that shoots a stream is better than Mace or pepper spray.
One of the things I did last fall….I only loosely secured a piece of the siding it had torn open…….and laid over a dozen mouse traps near the hole….over half were tripped by morning……he didn’t continue to attempt the break in he had planned 🙂
faux mccoy~ I would LOVE to meet you! Brains and guts! Like I said, I only shoot spitballs. I also know my temper, so no guns for me!
cielo says
likewise, chica 🙂
MMP~ LOL! I thought you meant the cops! I was agreeing with you there!
MMP~ always a rebel! Honestly, I don’t know what I would have done. It’s not something one plans for. But knowing a dangerous person was around would have ensured more of my cooperation rather than my anger. I hope I never have to find out. NOW, a REGULAR cop with no warrant is a different story. 🙂
@cielo — if you look back at times when martial law was declared, it generally involved major disasters (san franciscco earthquake of 1906, great chicago fire) or serious strike breaking operations that threatened flow of goods, this situation was very different.
of course, it’s very difficult to say what any one of us would do in that situation. i can see arguments from both sides. what is clear to me is that martial law was imposed, but without the normal suspension of habeas corpus or for the reasons clearly outlined in the constitution (specifically rebellion or invasion).
i think we can pretty much agree that the outcome was good, but it is also fair to examine at what cost to personal liberty was it achieved.
X2
cielo says
i understand and lose no respect for anyone who would cooperate. if you agree, it is not an illegal search and seizure.
my concern is precedent and what circumstances will be considered soooo urgent that this be done again, again, and again. as i stated previously, i do not entertain conspiracy theories, at all. clearly as the video posted here demonstrated, people were forced from their homes, at gunpoint, with their hands on their heads by our government with no warrant. it did not appear that these people were consenting and they obviously had no choice. that is dangerous precedent.
X2
@Faux,
None of the dead or injured in Boston got any warning at all.
If the house next to you is burning, do you want a court order issued to get you to evacuate yours?
There was a distinct threat on the loose in the community of Watertown. It had to be located, and captured.
None of those citizens ordered out of their homes suffered death or injury. They should be thankful.
Most, it appeared, were.
Then why not FORCED evacuations for Katrina & Sandy to name a few?
pat says
BINGO!
@Faux and Pat –
One reason not to “force” people to evacuate their homes in the face of impending natural disasters is that warning is given a week ahead, warnings are updated, and final warnings are given that those who “shelter in place” cannot be rescued if they change their minds when there would be a distinct threat to the lives of rescue personnel.
Searching for an “armed and dangerous” suspect following bombings, mayhem, shooting and murder is a different public safety issue.
MMP~ Don’t get me started on evacuations for serious natural disasters! Hurricane Ike was OBVIOUSLY a MONSTER storm, but it was reported as a Cat 2, so idiots didn’t bother to hear more, like how it was over 750 MILES across and bringing a tidal surge comparabe to a Cat 5. Same for Hurricane Sandy. I don’t care if people want to excercise their rights to be stupid to death, but what USUALLY happens is those morons then CALL FOR HELP and put OTHER people in danger trying to rescue their stupid asses! AND THEN they sit around in the ruins of their homes bad mouthing the government because there’s no water, gas or electricity! I say if you are stupid enough to stay behind then you have NO right to complain or endanger others.
@pmom says
yup, you are right. as a matter of fact, i have a friend of the family who is right now in critical condition, missing her right foot and is a dancer. i am in no way indifferent to their plight.
this has no connection to my constitutional right to be free of warrant less search of my property. absolutely none, i am sure fred will confirm.
obviously, if i wish to live, i leave my home on my own accord. this has absolutely no bearing on the fourth amendment which guarantees me from illegal search and seizure of my person or property. no connection – again, i am sure fred would back me up.
yes, there was a threat to watertown. an injured 19 year old was on the loose and a manhunt was underway. this still does not allow law enforcement to violate my 4th amendment rights. think of the grateful dead, in ‘truckin’ …
Sittin and starin out of the hotel window.
Got a tip they’re gonna kick the door in again
Id like to get some sleep before I travel,
But if you got a warrant, I guess you’re gonna come in.
i am as adamant about 4th amendment rights as i am all others. period. i have that right.
i suppose that all depends on your perspective. not all of the watertown residents were pleased to be hustled out of their homes at gunpoint with their hands in the air. law enforcement treated some folks nice and other folks not so nice.
i would consider my rights violated. truly, i am surprised that you don’t understand or respect this. maybe fred will be kind enough to write an article on the 4th amendment for us.
clearly, i feel quite strongly about this – as does pat. i understand what you are saying, but you must also understand that i do not have to just ‘move along’ from my own home just because some cop says so at gun point. probable cause and a warrant are not negotiable.
Well they didn’t start shootin’ up the town & innocent people like LA did looking for Dorner….So that’s a plus đź
Any reports of any of these civilians having to go to the hospital after being confronted by the law?……Little old ladies having heart attacks and such?
This amounted to martial law….without even having a curfew imposed.
Personally I think it was a total overreaction by LE…
They could have gone down streets with bullhorns asking residents to step outside as a safety check or some such..any that didn’t respond?……check the house out……they have K-9’s…..and they had his scent and blood trail…..Raiding peoples homes as if they’re criminals is beyond belief.
“To see victory only when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.”
Sun Tzu
pat says
am unaware of any serious complaints, but i have not sought out that info either.
yes, i prefer your methods. i am fine with an officer knocking on my door, asking me if i am ok. i may even consider letting them look in the yard if i were home alone with my children. may, because i am not willing to leave my children in my home while i go inspect the yard nor am i willing to bring them with me.
as odious as i find property searches at gunpoint without warrant, i think ‘shelter in home’ or whatever else they called it was just as out of touch. that violates your freedom to move about as you please and to assemble with whom you wish.
as my husband just said while we were joking about it over a smoke on our warm (72 deg) patio we could imagine the fuzz with bull horns saying shit like
“ok citizen, you are free to go about your business … right there in your home”
“don’t worry citizen, we’ve got this under control, as long as you just stay in your home”
“ok citizen, you are now free to move about your living room”
“citizen, please return to your television and step away from the windows, for your own protection”
It’s 29F here right now…with a low of 14 predicted…along with snow…
April snow grows August Potatoes 🙂
fauxmccoy~ Of course, I also agree with you. I DON’T like the idea that this kind of behavior will become more commonplace. Aside from the clothes and color photos, it’s reminiscent of WWII Germany. But had the “authorities” NOT have continued to search, and several OTHER explosive devices had gone off and hurt/killed more people, then they would have been dragged over the coals for NOT finding any additional suspects. It’s a no win scenario. Evacuate for the hurricane of not? Search for more bombers or not? Either way, people are going to be unhappy.
Of course, helping at that point, in that situation is the only thing that would make sense.
@Lonnie.
@Cielo,
Re “Of course, helping at that point, in that situation is the only thing that would make sense.”
My concern is this: There are many reasons to cooperate, and, as an example, I live in a high fire danger area subject to massive (and fatal) brush fires September through November every year and at other freak, intermittent points during the year.
When my door is pounded on, I evacuate. Not just becauise those guys are armed. Personal safety/survival for my animals and myself is paramount (possessions be damned).
But an additional and significant reason for doing this is the public good. If I’m gone, no public safety officer need try to rescue me – at risk to himself or herself. I’m out of the way so they can make their best efforts to quell the fire.
I would have the same sense of duty if I were a resident of Watertown last week. I don’t think the King is going to violate my sofa or my family documents. I do think the cops are on a valid and difficult search. I’ll cooperate – and do not sense I am giving up any of my freedoms. “Freedom from having a killer in our midst” is a good enough justification for me. I do not want anyone else to be killed, if my cooperation could have prevented that.
I have no sympathy for those who refused to cooperate.
Let them sue.
On one NON-emergency case a Sheriff appeared at the door insisting he was responding to an emergency call that originated at my house. I was the only one here at that time, so I knew it did not. Told him to re-check the dispatch records, and if he STILL insisted on entering, get a court order.
He never came back.
@MountainMan –
Pat, during your very early days in So Cal aerospace your company may have been involved in manufacturing MIRVs or components for same:
“A multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) is a ballistic missile payload containing several warheads each capable of hitting one of a group of targets. By contrast a unitary warhead is a single warhead on a single missile.” (With thanks to Google.)
PMom………..I was trying to make a comparison between cluster bombs……and MIRV’s…..which in reality are nothing more than nuclear cluster bombs……….McDonnell Douglas in Torrance………Hughes GSG in Fullerton…..security clearances at both.
I’m not convinced that the naked man seen getting into the police car is Tamerlan. For one thing, although the video isn’t very clear, it appeared to me that the man had facial hair, and Tamerlan was photographed clean-shaven on the day of the bombings.
I didn’t see any evidence of gunshot wounds, either, and he was reportedly shot more than once when he ‘allegedly’ got out of the SUV and charged the policemen. I never saw any reference to the younger brother having exited the vehicle, but he was apparently wounded during the shootout, so how likely is it that Tamerlan could have been unscathed? I did see pictures of a man who resembled Tamerlan in size, hair color and clothing lying facedown and unmoving on the pavenemt when I watched MSNBC’s live coverage of the shootout, but I never saw any evidence of blood on his clothing or seeping from under his body.
A resident in an upper floor apartment was describing what he’d seen to the MSNBC anchor, and he said that he saw the SUV ram its way through the police cars and make a getaway. I thought that it was quite possible that the younger brother never saw the exact location of his brother’s body, and inadvertently ran over it in his panic.
Agree. IMO the photo is real, it has Tamerlan’s profile and phisique, while the naked man was either the owner of the hijacked car, (presumably the police would arrest him if only to eliminate the possibility he was a co-conspirator trying to give himself an alibi with a claim of being hi-jacked), or someone arrested by mistake, or of a completely different matter.
If it is Tamerlan and I personally believe it is (it looks real, details are credible such as the pads and the wounds, and the profile looks like his even in death) it certainly does not speak much for the police or medical staff complying with rules of confidentiality nor decorum nor even common sense as it is hardly likely to dampen passions in extremist circles.
Wouldn’t the owner of the hijacked car be – well, without a car?
Yep, well, the owner of a hijacked car would most definitely be without a car? Sorry did I say anything that contradicts that? Am I missing something? If neither then you lost me!
Sorry Two sides first interrogation of my reply is a mistake, i.e. after car there is a full stop not an interrogation.
I’m under the impression that the guy made to strip when arrested was removed or came from his car and then put into the police car, then removed from the PD car again, then photographed, according to some witness reports. But that might be my bad.
Oh, I replied in the wrong place and was answering elcymoo. Sorry. I kinda agree with you, though all these reports are a little hard to sort out.
I kinda think that law enforcement likes it that way. i don’t think Boston area law enforcement gave a crap about capturing the Tsarnaev brothersalive any more than did the law enforcement agencies who bulldozed a house around Dorner and burned him to a crisp, even though they heard a shot inside the cabin and knew he probably killed himself.
And that can just be instant karma, but still . . . it doesn’t bode well for anyone else suspected of a crime large or small.
Gotya. I didn’t think it could be any of our bads, just a misunderstanding as I had already covered any other possibilities, I think, when I wrote:
Like any sane person I abhor extremist violence or terrorism. I just feel there is something wrong here, that is more like a personal grouch much like many other mass killings with nihilism as the end game. I mean, where is the political message, where is the video dedicating the act to Alah, and explaining why they did this terrible thing, e.g. Palestine, not helping our Muslim brothers in Syria, etc.? I was not surprised charges didn’t include terrorism as unless they make it up, which they seem to have already started, or find some other information pointing to it and add it as a charge later as far as the charging definition for terrorism goes what happened here doesn’t seem to fit.
@ gbrbsb, re:
I agree that the “terrorism” characterization is an assumption, rather than a conclusion from evidence analysis in this case. But, nevertheless, it looks like the charges DO include a “terrorism” charge.
The Criminal Complaint (which I provided a link to, above) cites two criminal code violations. One of the criminal codes allegedly violated is “Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction” [18 U.S.C. 2332a(a)]. And that criminal code falls within Title 18’s Chapter 113B, which is titled – guess what – “TERRORISM.”
You can see the statutory framework here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-113B
I don’t see death photo disappearing.
http://newsone.com/2396950/tamerlan-tsarnaev-death-photo/
International Business Times has more on the photo:
According to Boston.com, the alleged death photo… was circulated in an email by law enforcement officials Friday morning with “Suspect 1” written on the image. The site reported officers were using the photo of the dead body “to revel” in the alleged bomber’s demise, from a shootout with police in the early-morning hours Friday. Law enforcement continued the search for Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s brother, Dzhokhar, who is still at large.
“Mission accomplished. We’re halfway there. Justice is served,” the official said, Boston.com reported.
Another officer called seeing the photo “cathartic.”
I apologize for the posting the gruesome still without a warning.
I don’t apologize for the message in the video, though. The FBI has a history of being intimately involved in most (maybe all) the terrorist bombings in this country. There is also a history of “patsies” being set up to take the blame for all kinds of bad things. Jumping to the conclusion that the official story is the real deal is dangerous.
CISPIS was passed last week. Another big hit to our freedoms. Did you notice? A very watered down amendment to the gun control legislation was voted down. I’m of two minds where gun control is concerned but a high percentage of the population wants to see background checks. It ain’t gonna happen. Most likely none of the gun control legislation will make it. The appearance of a revolution with high powered weapons would bring a declaration of a state of emergency. ALL rights would be gone, and the military and/or the mercenaries would be brought in to quell the “disturbance”. Did you notice that a city as large as Boston was put in lock down with nary a quibble.
I’m glad you did, BettyKath.
I’m not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but we need to be aware that things aren’t always what they seem to be. And you’re right – the fact is that gov’t intel in many countries have been caught with their fingers in the pie of many questionable situations.
Meanwhile, the US Constitution is crumbling on the Capitol steps, one fact both conservatives and progressives can probably agree on.
bettykath: ” The FBI has a history of being intimately involved in most (maybe all) the terrorist bombings in this country.”
They are intimately involved because it is job to be involved. This is from the FBI website:
The FBI’s investigative authority is the broadest of all federal law enforcement agencies. The FBI has divided its investigations into a number of programs, such as domestic and international terrorism, foreign counterintelligence, cyber, public corruption, civil rights, organized crime/drugs, white-collar crime, violent crimes and major offenders, and applicant matters.
It only makes sense to have one agency involved in acts of domestic/international terrorists acts. If you didn’t have a central agency then the chance of missing something increases…..like a common thread.
Yes, the city of Boston went into lockdown without any fight but they knew what they wanted…….to catch the persons responsible for the bombing and the citizens of Boston were willing to assist in that by abiding to the lockdown. They were all working together for a common goal. Will they have the same results in another emergency? Who knows.
@Tower –
Thank you for this:
“Yes, the city of Boston went into lockdown without any fight but they knew what they wanted…….to catch the persons responsible for the bombing and the citizens of Boston were willing to assist in that by abiding to the lockdown. They were all working together for a common goal.”
Civilized and responsible.
Ya know PMom I can go along with the working together…as it should be…..The point for me is being forced to by the “law”
@MountainMan –
Well, I look at it this way, Pat. Somebody had to organize all that, to coordinate the police response, the logistics and command. Under those circumstances I’m inclined to go along and not be a pain in the butt to the authorities, Everybody knew what was going on and the risks they faced,
What amazed me was to Google a map of the area last Thursday and see that sleepy little Watertown is only four miles from the marathon blasts!! Wow! Right next door! Where I’ve lived “four miles” is often your driveway. This was, to those folks, an EVER-PRESENT DANGER. I think they were thrilled by the show of force – thousands of officers. Their Fourth Amendment rights were not high on their “to do” list – survival was.
Last Friday in Watertown, nobody had to ask,
“How come you can never find a cop when you need one?”
And no civilian was killed, and none injured –
Except the suspects.
Awesome!
How to Serve Man……..
“NO…..DON’T GO….it’s a COOKBOOK”
Astronomical Twilight Sterling, Rod! đź€
Hey, all. Maybe it’s time for a chill pill. Or, if you don’t have any of those, try some deep breathing.
Consider and evaluate your information sources before jumping in on speculation and rumor-mongering. And consider multiple reliable (based on your judgment and experience) sources.
Anonymous YouTube “sources”? Seriously?? IMO, those are always suspect until proven otherwise.
JMO. FWIW.
These weren’t anonymous sources. These are alternative news sources – one a local Boston radio show, which unfortunately, the poster who placed the audio file on Talk Left did not identify with a site. The other sourse is a Canadian alternative press reporter who identifed himself and the press clearly.
I’m not jumping on any conspiracy bandwagon and I don’t think anyone who is commenting here is either.
We’ve presented some food for thought because witnesses and relatives of the bomber think they see something different than what is promoted by the mainstream media.
It doesn’t hurt anything to look into these allegations as we consider the hard evidence of the case.
Nearly a dozen years have passed since 9/11 and there are still many unanswered questions about exactly what happened and how it happened.
Having worked 9-11 as an Air Traffic Controller, I can assure you I don’t have any questions about that day.
towerflower says
thank you!
neither do the families who ever saw their loved ones again
(unless i have grossly misunderstood your statement which i take to be a rejection of conspiracy theories)
Not so. There are many families still asking unanswered questions.
In fact, there are many sites around the web you can research to find that many families who lost loved ones are not satisfied with the official investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement
Two Sides~ When people lose loved ones, NO ANSWER is good enough. Espcially when the bodies vaporized and they have nothing to bury and mourn over. That doesn’t mean there is a conspiracy.
Yes, I reject the conspiracy theories of that day. Some border on the outrageous, like AAL11 wasn’t a real passenger jet (swapped out military jet) or that UAL93 didn’t crash in PA or that it was shot down….some like to cite the plane spotted circling the area after the crash. That plane was a private plane sent by the air traffic controllers to investigate the area where the last radar hit was, just like they asked the military C-130 to follow the pentagon jet. That isn’t uncommon and I’ve used/asked planes to check out areas before, yet some want to make it seem unusual and part of a conspiracy. Just about every conspiracy theory about that day has been disproved, like cell phones wouldn’t work and the steel wouldn’t have melted.
For the various conspiracies to have worked it would have involved ten of thousands of people to be involved and I can guarantee you that someone would have spoken up by now. Do I believe that sometimes the government hides information, yes. I may not have been at ground zero that day but I was on the front lines. The controllers on that day did something never tried before, there was no written plan for that, but when the order came through to land every plane, we did it and then we continued to watch the skies for anything else.
I feel for the families of those lost and can understand their wanting answers but sometimes the obvious just isn’t good enough and they search for more.
Good article, professor.
Hopefully, more truth will come forward. There are people in America who like to find a conspiracy in everything — even Sandy Hook. This time, because the weapons were bombs and not guns, at least President Obama is not being blamed for causing it to promote gun control.
LOL – go look over at the Tree Stump. Yes indeed, many do find ways to blame Obama for the Tsarnaev brothers’ doings, perhaps not in connection with gun control, but for many other illogical reasons.
Yes indeed TSTAS, yes indeed. At least though he is the president and taking that kind of goes with the territory. Thank goodness they aren’t finding some way to blame this on Trayvon and/or his family, at least not AFAIK.
@Two sides.
Uhhh — no thanks. I just ate lunch. LOL!
That doesn’t surprise me. It’s like a very bad marriage where one spouse no longer wants to be married and accuses the other of everything in the book, and the sequel.
I can’t even count the weird remarks I’ve seen comparing Trayvon and the Tsarnaev brothers. Unbelievable. Even comparisons between parents. I bet they would blame the Martins if they could just figure out a way to do it!
Yes TSTAS, i spoke too soon. Sigh smh
CBS News is reporting:
EDIT: I should have added that no decision will be made on whether to seek the death penalty, assuming he is convicted, until after the defense has had an opportunity to present mitigation evidence to DOJ for it to consider in deciding whether to seek death.
And I take it they still haven’t read him his Miranda rights – ?
My understanding: you are correct.
Oh, and one thought – isn’t it a bit of a stretch to call homemade cluster bombs “weapons of mass destruction?” They do cause a lot of devastating destruction, particularly to human bodies, but I always thought WMD were things like missiles, nuclear warheads, etc. Big, bigger, biggest destruction.
Like a poorly regulated fertilizer plant.
CL – hear ya!
Here’s Spencer Ackerman with the answer:
Thank for the answer.
The Washington Post has posted a copy of the criminal complaint here:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/criminal-complaint-united-states-vs-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/412/
Thank you. I was skeptical right away, about the ‘composite’ video when I viewed the source and apparent intentions of what was going around.
I should not have jumped to the conclusion that the man in cuffs could not have been Tsarnaev, I think the idea that he was taken away, tortured and killed, doesn’t make sense given the cameras around, the number of EMP, police and reporters in the area.
But how did Tsarnaev die? How could a cuffed and naked person, become clothed again, and did the brothers have a pact to not be taken alive? Could the younger brother have been following directions to kill his own brother rather than allow him to be taken into custody?
But how could this be without reporters becoming aware of an oncoming violent event before them such as the car entering the scene?
Ppresumably, if EMT reports are correct via AP, Tsarnaev was clothed at the time he was treated at the scene.
IF this is Tsarnaev in the video clip (safe to use the video report I posted on the last story), and if he could not be clothed without removing cuffs, why was he allowed to be out of cuffs? That makes no sense, why not drape him in something in the back of the car for transport or transport immediately from that scene?
Doesn’t yet add up.
And as a tactic of interrogation, D may not have been told of T’s death and could be led to believe he is still alive and talking?
I don’t understand the conspiracy……..CNN has been interviewing the homeowner who captured video of the police shootout with the brothers. He also witnessed 3 cops trying to handcuff him when the younger brother came at them all with the stolen SUV. He said the cops were able to get out of the way in time but he ran over and dragged his brother for a short distance. There is an eye witness to this happening. The eyewitness also confirms 2 ambulances….one for the injured cop and the last one for the older brother. He never made it to a police car.
I have always heard the news reporting that the naked guy was the victim of the carjacking. The cops made him strip naked to ensure that he had no bombs on him. He was handcuffed and taken in and later released when it was determined that he was a victim.
Fact is there are some conspiracy people who will see a coverup and government involvement behind every large story.
towerflower~ Check out dennis’s posts on this blog. A loose cog there somewhere. This “conspiracy” makes no sense.
We need more fine, upstanding, patriotic Americans….like Jack Ruby…….
Be that as it may we can’t ban conspiracy theories, so we’ll just have to tolerate them and, if one cares to, examine them to see if there’s anything there. Obviously each has to do this work for themselves, or simply take the words of whomever they choose to do it for them. We can only hope that in the end the truth prevails.
@Lonnie Starr. The master of conspiracy theories told me that good ones have no resolution. It gives people a sense of knowing secrets, and riles them up so that all hope is lost.
Some conspiracy theories are geared to take attention off victims by those who prefer to pass blame rather than reach out to suffering human beings.
Yes, and while we must guard against that sort of thing, there is very good reason why people think such things. It’s not like Operation Northrop did not exist. Don’t ask me to go back into 911, but, Iraq and Afghanistan weren’t the only targets that Donald Rumsfeld et als had in mind, they were stopped with just those two invasions, but they had Iran and Syria in mind as well, they just couldn’t get there. Their little juggernaut was shut down before they could complete the PNAC plan (Project for a New American Century). Over at 911 Pilots for Truth, you’ll find some very rational people to talk with. Even their there are a few “over the edge” people around, but hey, they’re everywhere.
I’ve heard that Invading Afghnistan….and trying to influence Pakistan was because they wanted to run a pipeline from the Kyjerkoffstan oil fields to the indian ocean……
You heard anything along those lines?
911 was the excuse the PNAC needed to make their “Project for the New American Century” work, which was a political plan to dominate the middle east with oil and control of drugs as the personal payoff for the individual players. Not to mention the huge opportunity to raid the national treasury. They released 12.5 billion in US funds from the Treasury to the UN Iraq Relief fund, which, of course, we (Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney) controlled. J. Paul Bremer (a Vice President of the bank that had servers installed on the 80th floor in the south tower, exactly the floor where the plane hit. Was name to head the Provisional Iraq Authority, eh? Needless to say the 12.5 billion in cash that was immediately shipped into Iraq, quickly disappeared without a trace. The oil pipelines were small potatoes compared to the games these guys were playing, but yeah, that was on the scope too.
The police would want Tamerlan ALIVE, not dead, if they had their choice.
@BahamaMama Would they? Sure about that? As someone who has been assaulted by a police officer with other officers witnessing, then charged with more than one count of assault on said police officer when I made absolutely no physical contact with that officer outside his battering me, I think you’re making a BIG assumption at how individual officers behave in the heat of the moment.
That I received a small fracture and numerous bruises on various parts of my body got that nonsense dropped lightning fast. There was no way the particular cop who made this claim was going to perjure himself in court. (He had two little scratches that he caused by battering me.)
That these young suspects have likely killed people means that any untrue story that authorities want us to believe can easily planted.
A commenter at Talk Left posted this audio file over there – a distressed woman, a witness to the shootout between police and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, called into a Boston radio program to claim that a police vehicle hit Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
We know that eyewitnesses to upsetting events can be notoriously unreliable, but sometimes they get it right.
Something to think about. We’ll have to wait and see.
http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1598198/callerlindabulk.mp3?rhihttphost=audio.weei.com
After seeing the Aunt’s interviews on TV, I find it hard to believe that the in your face woman giving out interviews like candy was now a suddenly afraid for her life from unknown assassins woman.
towerflower~ Kind of like Gladys Zimmerman, huh?
I agree with you Bahama Mama.
Thanks for the video mountainmanpat. Of course it makes sense that if you are setting up patsies it makes sense if they are not able to speak (i.e., one dead, one shot in the throat). But why? What would be the purpose of doing this and setting someone up? To spread hatred? Start something? To make the Boston Police look good? Bad? What would be the purpose?
Rachael~ My questions exactly! Which is why I don’t believe Dennis’s latest conspiracy theory. There’s no point.
All I know is the lingering result of terrorist attacks is that Constitutional protections and rights wind up getting shredded and surrendered in the name of trading our rights for increased security. Ben Franklin had already given such matters some thought, even way back then at the birth of the nation. He concluded that people who traded their rights for security would eventually wind up with neither. Bush called our Constitution “Just a G-Dmnd piece of paper” which he then ignored and violated with impunity and without consequence.
Did Bush prove his remarks to be true? Well, today we have a President who, unlike Presidents before him, has the power of life and death, unfettered by judicial review, over each and every citizen of the land. Even if it would take a bit of a stretch to apply it, the fact remains that this new power is there and there’s probably more powers coming while these already obtained new powers will be extended. The complaints against terrorism will provide the argument that allows the public to willingly accept to wear “the chains and shackles of freedom”. And yes, people in chains, marching to the beat of a drum on command, can be convinced that they do so because they are free. History shows that we have been and still are a very silly species. But enough said on that score!
Remember Ike’s words about the military / industrial complex?
When has this country not been at war with someone, whether cold or hot since WWII?…….Cold war ends……then we end up in Croatia….Not long after Iraq invades Kuwait….(I’m not saying I disagreed with that one)…..BUT afterword?….the no fly zones over Iraq…..Then the second Iraq war…..now known to be started under false pretenses…..We’re still in Afghanistan…..and the WAR ON TERROR….no front lines…..no determined objective….
“The U.S. spent more on defense in 2011 than did the countries with the next 13 highest defense budgets combined”
http://www.pgpf.org/Chart-Archive/0053_defense-comparison.aspx
Yet with all that….we can’t secure our borders from the flow of illegal drugs & immigration?
War is good for business….and the more the country can keep us in fear of an outside threat…….The more we will trust them to protect us….taking our liberties in what they say is needed to protect us.
Boston?….Invading peoples homes at gunpoint, without warrant or probable cause….and how easy it was to take everyone’s freedom of movement……a city the size of Boston !!!!!!!!!
Think Goldstein in Orwell’s 1984
MMP~ The war on terror has put the US into the hole by BILLIONS of dollars. I highly doubt that this episode has anything to with starting up MORE war debt. Maybe the GOP and their bedmates the Tea Party would LOVE to be aggrieved victims, but it makes NO SENSE for critically thinking people to have another war, hot or cold, with the factions from the former Soviet Union. Bushy baby did his thing with “yellow alert” and “orange alert” and people just tuned it out. We have gotten to a point where people are just plain SICK of meddling in foreign affairs. If this bombing was meant to ignite some kind of September 11 fervor, it will fizzle big time.
MMP have you been reading over at “911 Pilots for truth”? It is astonishing what real heavy commercial airline pilots have discovered.
But yes, “the chains of freedom are coming”, Orwell would be proud.
Mountainmanpat,
:Not long after Iraq invades Kuwait….(I’m not saying I disagreed with that one)….”
Karen Gillespie, state department rep (don’t remember her exact title), delivered a message from the Pappy Bush administration to Saddam Hussein that the “US really has no interest in the movement of boundaries in shifting sands of the middle east” (paraphrased) This was in response to Saddam Hussein’s objections to Kuwait’s drilling for oil from Kuwait into Iraq. SH wanted to be sure the US understood his objectives and had no problem with his going into Kuwait to stop the pilferage. Bush then used SH’s actions to invade Iraq.
And remember it was Pappy that said…”There should be limits to freedom”….the link containing the statement follows
http://rtmark.com/more/articles/bushdallas0522bush1bushsite.htm
I am so sorry to hear what you went through, TwoSides đź¦
Thank you, YAHTC.
I won’t identify myself by revealing more details, but it was a pretty eye-opening experience. It’s taken a long time to get over it and I do not trust police officers even though I intellectually realize that many are honest and forthright.
I hope that other people won’t have to suffer what I did. The “crime” was a very minor one and also debatable, and the “justice” .applied may have had some political motivation, as I was a progressive living in a very conservative area with lack of good public defenders willing to buck the system. Lots of people sucked into the justice system in that particularly state in these difficult times.
But be aware that stuff like this really does happen to ordinary people and not just in high-profile cases.
As usual and always anticipated, myriad excellent points here.
Definitely the who, how, and when on T’s death is far less transparent than when Jack Ruby pulled the trigger after aiming into on Lee Harvey (“I’m just a patsy”) Oswald’s gut. Am wondering if the wounded if D, if he survives, will have an inclination or the vocabulary to come up with the “patsy” defense.
Please excuse overabundance of misplaced “ifs.”
I’m learning you can never have enough ‘ifs’. đź‰
I had heard on the news, long before this was ever posted and quite some time before they actually had the shootout with Tamerlan, killing him, that the naked man being placed in the back seat of the patrol vehicle was the driver of the vehicle that Tamerlan and Dzhokhar carjacked. That was a story that came out quite some time before Tamerlan was killed.
“I think it’s important for us to realize how easy it is to fool people with photos and videos.”
Absolutely
Topic for an article and demo video examples, of how easy it is to create ‘truth’ by propaganda.
Were there multiple naked men on CNN? One was shown quite a bit between the killing of Tamerlan and the arrest of Dzhokhar.
“Multiple naked men on CNN.”
Wow. That’s why I don’t watch the news much.
WHAT!? Naked men? Where?
Follow………..Think about Dorner…….just sayin.
My sentiments exactly!
Yes, but who outside the target US, wanted to silence anyone involved.
Things may not be as the seem.
Am not saying cops are incapable of committing atrocious acts. I don’t need any convincing on that point.
Not quite seeing it here yet and unwilling to say so based on the evidence that I have reviewed.
Without a lawyer, it would be simple to silence the second bombing suspect.
I hope there are screen captures of all the photos and videos posted, whether posted by official sources or not. There should be a careful reconstruction, later, with time and attention, to see not only what took place but also what was broadcast.
>^..^< MMP~ I thought the same. Younger brother knows diddly squat.