Sunday, April 21, 2013
I write today to defend a fellow citizen’s Fifth Amendment right to remain silent during a custodial interrogation and his Sixth Amendment right to consult with counsel and have counsel present during a custodial interrogation. He has not been questioned yet due to his medical condition.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a naturalized United States citizen in custody for his suspected participation in a scheme that detonated two bombs killing 3 people and injuring many more along the Boston Marathon race course on April 15, 2013. He is also a suspect in the murder of a law enforcement officer on the campus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology after the bombing.
He is not an enemy combatant who attacked United States military personnel on foreign soil.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be advised that he has those rights before law enforcement agents attempt to question him and no interrogation should take place, unless he voluntarily waives those rights and agrees to answer questions. No less is required by the SCOTUS decision in Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 86 S. Ct. 1602, 16 L. Ed. 2d 694 (1966).
If an interrogation proceeds without the advice of rights and voluntary waiver of those rights required by Miranda, then anything he says should be suppressed and cannot be used against him in a court of law.
He has the right to be charged and prosecuted in the United States criminal justice system, rather than before a military tribunal, and accorded all of the rights that would be accorded to any other defendant charged with a crime.
The United States Department of Justice has announced that he will be prosecuted in the civilian criminal justice system and that is a proper decision.
However, despite an acknowledged lack of any evidence or reason to believe that Tsarnaev is part of a larger plot with plans to commit other terrorist acts, the Justice Department has announced that it intends to interrogate him without Mirandizing him.
This decision is an intentional violation of Miranda that not only violates the suspect’s rights, it potentially jeopardizes the prosecution.
There is no reason ever to sacrifice due process of law and this casecertainly provides no compelling reason to consider making an exception.
For more information, read this informative article by Josh Gerstein at Politico.
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Thank you,
Fred
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
He was Mirandized, whether it’s called something else by the Federal court, he was read his constitutional rights and right to remain silent and to have his lawyer present, right to speak and the warning about that, etc.
His appointed lawyer was present.
I posted a portion of the court transcript and a link to yesterday’s proceedings transcript on the newer article ‘Update ….Initial Appearance”.
Here’s the transcript pdf link:
Click to access Transcript-of-Hospital-Appearance.pdf
Got a bit of info to share on why Dzhokhar was not read his Miranda rights and why it is not unconstitutional. I’m not at liberty to name my source, but let’s say that he is a credible, authoritative source.
It’s on the basis that Miranda advises that anything a person says can and will be used against them in a court of law. The info that the feds want is not related to the charges filed against Dzhokhar.
Dzhokhar wants to be questioned to get information regarding if there is a “cell” and if there were plans for more bombings. Whatever information Dzhokhar gives will not be used against him in a court of law. It is more along the lines of being an informant.
This sort of interrogation is conducted for national security and not to prosecute.
Not so sure I agree with that, but still wanted to share this.
Well Xena, it does make sense because, the penalty for obtaining information from an accused who has not been Mirandized is for the court to bar the use of that information from being used against the accused. So, if they don’t intend and do not use the info they obtain, then there’s nothing to penalize.
One only has to be Mirandized if the police want to use what they obtain against the accused. If they do not intend to use it, there’s no harm done in obtaining it without the warning.
@Lonnie Starr.
It makes sense — still don’t know if I agree with the procedure. It’s like a forced position to be an informant. That can raise concern for safety if others were involved that don’t want Dzhokhar to talk. No wonder they are waiving the bail hearing.
@ Xena –
@ Lonnie –
The information they would hope to obtain (re terrorist cells, training, etc.) is not information they would WANT to make public.
another enlightening perspective from the guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/21/boston-marathon-bombs-us-gun-law
Hey Fauxy!
heya sweetpea!
New post up:
Who killed Tamerlan Tsarnaev
Also – breaking news – http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17863706-white-house-tsarnaev-wont-be-treated-as-enemy-combatant?lite
” ‘Boston Bombs Were Loaded to Maim,’ a New York Times headline shouted.
U.S. cluster bombs have done the same in places like Afghanistan and Yemen. Shouldn’t we end that hypocrisy? Cluster bombs have been banned since 2010 by a treaty that 81 nations are already party to. Another 27 nations have signed but not yet ratified. The United States is not among the signers, serving rather as the chief opponent of the treaty.”
Tell the President and Congress to sign and ratify the Convention on Cluster Munitions:http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=7784
This is an interesting background of the family from the WSJ (Wall St Journal)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578437131250259170.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3
Thanks for the link.
I know many of you here may not agree with me, but he deserve nothing at this point but the free medical care he is getting now. Many people lives are forever change from that day. A six year old girl will go home without a leg and while trying to cope with that,she has to deal with her big brother is not there anymore. I can’t imagine how this child will be able to deal with this, being an adult I can’t even process that thought. The dead police tells a lot about this story if he was not killed maybe I would have a different view on his rights. I am Muslim and I know that people like his brother use Allah as a way to justify their murder of innocent people. Allah frowns on the killing of the innocent, children and women. I fault the government for this because they knew about his older brother before they committed this act. I have no doubt in my mind that he and his brother did this. I believe that his brother brainwashed him because he was only eight when he got here. His mother and brother have been spoken to per his mother about his ideas,even another government warned our government about the older brother. Do I want to live in a policed state No! I believe we are in one anyway, when there is a camera on every traffic signal watching our every move. But with all that Said if that had been my family laid out there on the streets of Boston with their leg blown off I would want him treated like a terrorist because that’s exactly he and his brother are. If not why put a bullet threw your mouth.
The decade since 9/11 has seen less terrorism (of all ideologies) than other recent decades. There were 168 attacks in the ten years after 9/11, but in the 1970s, there were 1357 attacks. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130420-homegrown-terrorism-tsarnaev-brothers-boston-marathon-bombings-islam-radicalism/
Two Sides~ Are you including all the bombings that Hamas has made into Israel? Talk about another terrorist group that deserves to be exterminated.
It’s not my tally, so you’d have to research all the article above and what it links to. I don’t know if they’re counting every small explosion or only mass attacks.
Two Sdie~ Thanks! Just curious. It just seems teh bombing there never ends.
I think you are missing the point Tee, we are all as angry as you are, but if the rights of one citizen is trampled then the rights of all citizens are trampled. He can be prosecuted without violating the law.
Tee~ You speak with emotion, STRONG emotion. But our rule of law must prevail or else we become no better than the Taliban striking each offense with violence. These losers are no better and NO WORSE that GZ when he claimed the murder HE committed was “God’s Plan.” I’m glad he’ll be tried as an American with all of our rights. His punishment will come from WITHIN our laws and not outside of it.
I went to bed early and missed the posting of the graphic video.
I have edited the comment so that readers are not greeted by the gruesome death photo.
For those who are interested, I bracketed the link, so you can copy it and post it in your browser.
Some people are claiming that the naked man in the video is the owner of the vehicle that Tamerlan and his brother carjacked.
I don’t know whether that is true, but the naked man in handcuffs being placed in the back seat of a police cruiser certainly looks like Tamerlan.
That man did not appear to have any injuries.
Thanks for doing that.
I don’t know who the man in custody is, but the video I posted explains more about what went on with him wihen the FBI arrived through the interviewed witness, and that included him putting his cloths back on and talking to the FBI again, back at a car.
WE don’t see that yet on video, may come across it. But presumably, the police/FBI would treat anyone associated with the firefight and carjacking, would be taken into custody and checked for any booby traps, bombs placed on him.
The cfnews report says that the bomber being treated at the scene by emergency responders, had his clothes cut off for evaluation and treatment on scene. You don’t need to cut someone’s clothes off if they have no debukutatubg injuries and are capable of following instructions to do it themselves.
The man does look like the older brother, yes. But is he…. could the suspects have targeted someone with the same general appearance/age/gender for the carjacking so they might use his ID, add confusion? Maybe, maybe coincidence, luck of the draw.
We also do not know the time of this video, and if it was taken before or after the firefight, and we don’t have any evidence that we can see, of injuries on this person.
The CNN people, if they filmed this, should explain who that was or was not, and give a time.
&*&%%! keb!
debukutatubg = debilitating
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/21/boston-bombing-dead-suspect.html
Adds more mystery if this video did show Tamerlan in cuffs and in custody and in a police car.
A commenter at Talk Left posted this audio file – a caller to a Boston radio program claims that a police vehicle hit Tamerlan Tsarnaev
http://d24edc7kaf4agn.cloudfront.net/1598198/callerlindabulk.mp3?rhihttphost=audio.weei.com
here is a bit of awesome, I googled that and google asked me if I meant “debilitating”
wow
Of course he should an will be informed of his rights an mirandized.
Tim McVey an cohorts were mirandised.
Thease cowardly attacks happened in America perpertrated by natinalised American Citizens.
He cannot speak at the present time but is writting notes in answer to questions from the F B I.
Im 100percent sure he will have beeen mirandised.
I know I’m not the brightest bulb in the package, but why would anyone want to gawk at the mutilated image of a dead body in a public forum. What is the point of this? IMO, this is in extremely poor taste.
annakonda, I agree. I don’t know why it was posted here.
The video I posted above is SAFE TO VIEW for anyone to view– no bloody images, no unblocked naked persons, the innocent carjacking victim was filmed and called ‘bombing suspect by these news crews, giving propagandists the perfect way to use for their purpose.
You will see how reporters put two and two together and came up 22.
The lie is not in the images, the lie is in the propaganda of putting REAL images together to create a totally different story. Here, the story is of a naked suspect being put in a police car, alive, perfect condition, and then ending up dead and in horrid condition.
The naked man was NOT one of the bombing suspects, he was the innocent man who had his car hijacked and he was taken along with the bombers and got away.
cfnews13.com has an article that talks to the ER foctor who attended to the older brother.
*Note the first sentence– “emergency responders cut off his clothes at the scene’. Not the same person as in the video.
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/ap/2013/04/20/Doctor_Dead_bomb_suspect_had_wounds_head_to_toe_.html
If this video is not the carjacking victim, then there are some serious questions about who it is, and if it actually is Tsarnaev, and if the reporter as eye witness in the video report saw the FBI apparently ID him, then question him for some minutes in a car, what happened next?
Why does the video cut off, where is a complete report or raw video and if none exists, why not, did something happen to interrupt the camera person?
The earlier report says police were cuffing Tsarnaev when his brother drove the car into the group, police got out of the way and Tsarnaev was hit and dragged.
Cuffs on or off? He was reported apparently, by emergency responders, to have been clothed as clothing was cut off.
How did he get away from police, was he killed by his own brother using the car as weapon as some part of a pact to not be taken alive? And did this occur in front of one of the media cameras?
@ay2z.
You’re using logic. My question would be, how would any reporter be present and allowed to film anything since even the news did not know about the shoot-out until after it happened?
I looked at the police cars in that video, trying to see if I saw any name of the city on them. I did not. If I wanted to really examine this more, I would look for police cars in the city where this happened to see just what they look like and compare to those in the video.
It’s the news video above, that’s being sourced as ‘arrested then shot later’ theory. Just look at YouTube, posters are wanting it copied and shared everywhere to prove this man was taken away, tortured and shot, even headlines on other sites like globalresearch, no article, just the title and the full news version to suggest US wrongdoing.
If it’s US wrongdoing, it’s US wrongdoing to Americans. Much like the other thousands of reports of police/other authority wrongdoing to Americans they do not consider “decent.”
Perhaps what’s really at stake here is our own official adherence to our own moral and legal standards.
Malisha, it’s propaganda, simple form and effective,
“cumpes”– I have no explanation, just none!! 😉 Must be double keying…
@ay2z –
re: cumpes”– I have no explanation, just none!!
“These are times that stir great mischief … “
Yes! Proper kb placement would help too.
Here’s a news video that has an eyewitness that describes the ‘arrest’, stripping and FBI arrival, etc, then shows what is described as the video by a CNN cameraman.
We do not see the juxtaposition of the death photo to imply this is one and the same ‘suspect’, but news reporters seem to have cumpes to the conclusion that the person stripped, cuffed and put in the patrol car, then taken out of the car when FBI arrive to photograph hiis face, presumably, is the bomber they were looking for.
This is likely a false assumption, the man ‘suspect’ was allowed to dress then taken away, not taken away naked.
It’s offensive to have people remix and juxtapose images without confirming what they are concluding.
There must be some later video, subsequent to the shoot out, when reporters realize the bomber suspect was not the person stripped in this video.
The person who posted the YouTube using the death photo, writes with poor English. That bloody photo was added to get views, and it seems to have worked.
Minimally, a huge misunderstanding because the reporter in this story, concludes this is an arrested bomber suspect, not an innocent victim of the bombers left in their path to be held until FBI arrived to confirm his identity.
Obviously they did, but didn’t do a media event to say that.
I vote to take down this video with the dead bomber’s photo claiming he was alive and well by proof of the video clip. Other reports say this was the Mercedes driver who was carjacked.
It’s not news, its concoction and speculation from the confusion that night.
I just got rattled but didn’t get enlightened any.
Still rattled. Cannot formulate the questions; have not studied the case at all. Other things happening.
Daughter of a friend of mine ran the Marathon this year but finished 10 minutes before the blast. I was not prepared to start looking at the news, reading the news, hearing — much less SEEING — the news. So I can’t figure it out.
NOBODY should be under arrest and remain without Miranda warnings. Notice is the underpinning of law. ALL LAW. I think mothers should be mirandized when they turn to their state social services agencies for help with an abusive domestic partner/husband/etc, or for help with children. ANYBODY who can be suddenly (or gradually) deprived of freedom (or life or property) should be given proper notice.
Interesting video, if it is actually him.
LEAVE THE VIDEO. Let everyone see what the police didn’t think needed first aid.
So, guy has enough injuries to DIE FROM by the time he gets to hospital, what the #$%^& are they doing making him WALK? ever heard of ambulances? first aid? stretchers?
Or does humane treatment depend on how we “feel” about someone? he shot at us so he doesn’t deserve first aid? the other shot at us too, so he doesn’t deserve being Mirandised?
C’mon. Either it’s the same law for everybody, or there IS no rule of law.
Well at least they didn’t slice them up with machine gun fire then set fire to them as they did with Dorner. Progress of sorts.
aussie, some anonymous YouTube poster claims this is the older brother, where is the source video to show this is what it claims to be?
Didn’t need first aid because he was already dead? C’mon, let’s not jump to conclusions from someone who knows how to do a remix and add a still to a video of someone, possibly the Mercedes owner caught up in all this.
@Aussie,
Don’t be taken in by all that.
I could shoot some video of a buck-ass naked guy and intercut it into a news video and send it worldwide on the internet.
But it’s Sunday.
I try to keep away from buck-ass naked guys
on The Day of Rest.
PirhanaMom~ “I could shoot some video of a buck-ass naked guy and intercut it into a news video and send it worldwide on the internet. But it’s Sunday. I try to keep away from buck-ass naked guys on The Day of Rest.” LOL! Cuz after all, you may be old but you aint dead! 😉
@Cielo,
All things in moderation.
Six days a week for B-A-N guys is enough.
Here’s the video
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Te9mMuhag&feature=player_detailpage]
Fred’s Editorial Comment:
The video appears to display the dead body of Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the older brother of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Police have identified the two as the Boston Marathon bombers.
No one questions whether Tamerlan Tsarnaev is dead. However, a controversy now exists regarding whether he was alive when taken into custody. The video shows him apparently unharmed, naked, and handcuffed as uniformed cops lead him to a police cruiser and place him in the back seat.
The still photo shows Tamerlan’s naked body lying on his back. Nasty wounds are visible.
This video suggests Tamerlan may have been murdered after his arrest.
Due to the graphic and potentially disturbing nature of the death photo, which is displayed at the beginning before the video starts playing, I have bracketed the link to prevent the video from embedding. To see it, copy the youtube address between the brackets and paste it into your browser.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to embed such a graphic image in a public forum where people will come across it w/o warning. Prof., I request you delete bettykath’s post.
That video does not play with this image on repeat, that image is added it seems, and the remainder of the video is said to be a naked but perfectly fine, not any damage visible, so it’s now being used by some (see comments on Youtube) to suggest that the older brother was alive then had to be tortured to look like this image in death.
It’s propaganda for those who wish to martyr the dead brother, if we take clues from comments.
The youtube poster’s comment says he has not manipulated the video, says it’s original is from CNN, but I don’t see that video with or without this death image.
Would a hyped bomber be so calm in custody? Really? Not yelling anything at cameras?? Not acting out, fighting? Does not make sense that this is the bomber.
@Whonoze. I agree. It’s questionable how anyone got a photo of the dead body in what looks like the hospital. I would not want to promote it as factual.
agree, whonose. The photo has no legitimate place in the video. The father is now getting legal advice and the human rights issues are to be raised, perhaps using a video like this. Why do people believe this without a question?
I agree. The image disturbed me terribly!
wtf?? really. This is the first i have heard of this. so he was taken alive and ended up in the morgue. shit. holy shit.
ok i’m confused. I heard somewhere (wish i could remember) that the death photo was confirmed by authorities. So the naked footage may be faked? who knows. I’m confused.
@Jo –
Naked guy was second “arrested” Thursday night.
Did that guy look like he was dragged 30-40 ft. by an SUV?
After being in a firefight w/all those cops?
Subject to bombardment by shrapnel from his own IED?
More info will be coming out …
@Jo,
Don’t believe everything you see on the internet …
This is a field day for propagandists.
yes i just read down further, that makes more sense….it was the first i had seen or heard any of it….damn the internet can be dangerous
News reports of the younger suspect’s injuries, particularly the throat injury, which may have been self-inflicted, indicate he will be in a coma/anesthetized/intubated for a period of time and ultimately may never be able to speak – but he could write out replies.
It is thus too soon to read him his rights.
He won’t hear or comprehend them.
His appointed defense attorney should have immediate access and be advised as soon as the suspect regains – or appears to be starting to regain – any capacity to comprehend.
Reading him his Miranda Rights would go a long way internationally to show we are a nation of laws, not people.
There seems to be no credible threat from either alleged domestic terrorist. One is dead. Other is hospitalized in critical condition. There are plenty of leads to follow – the runner who saw the backpack being placed at the curb and the owner of the hijacked SUV, for starters.
Additionally, the FBI has plenty of operatives planted in terrorist cells. Unless these operatives are advising the bureau that these two Chechen/former Chechen bothers had accomplices or other cell members prepared to continue such bombing, the US can afford to back off its “Non-Mirandizing.”
On the other hand, we do not have those intelligence reports (and likely will not get them.)
My vote is: wait until the man is conscious, and if there is NO INTEL that they are part of a terrorist cell (which they should already know), read him his Miranda Rights.
Otherwise, release the INTEL and explain why he’s not being Mirandized.
We need his attorney’s statement also.
PiranhaMom,
Good points you make.
“explain why he’s not being Mirandized.”
The public safety exception is for immediate public safety, as in when he was first apprehended. The immediacy is gone. He should receive the Miranda warning as soon as he is recovered enough to understand it.
@ BettyKath –
re: “The public safety exception is for immediate public safety, as in when he was first apprehended. The immediacy is gone..”
I agree – but we don’t know if there are other “cell members” active. We don’t know what info is coming in from informants. All we know is what we see on TV and read in the papers.
We don’t have access to the scummy underbelly of terrorism. Were these two guys Doofusses? Or part of a mini-Massachusetts-based jihad?
Need more info.
prianhamom — reuters just reported that the suspect is awake and responding to authorities’ questions in writing — for whatever that is worth.
@Faux –
Well, we’ll see what comes out if this. The ER docs must be wonder-workers, and the kid – the former wrestler – pretty gritty and gristly.
Wondering where his attorney is.
How in the hell can somebody be writing out answers to the police when they have been shot point-blank in the neck? This shat doesn’t make any sense.
@PiranhaMom
If this were a Jihadist plot I would be surprised if the younger had tried to commit suicide as reported because under Islam that is one of the worst sins possible. For a Muslim suicide by your own hand is completely different to running out with your gun blazing fully knowing you’re going to be slaughtered by a thousand automatics aimed at you. Suicide bombings, etc. are done in the name of Allah and carry the promise of martyrdom and a special status in paradise for Judgment Day.
Just another detail that that makes me think this may not be your typical Jihadist or Al Qaeda inspired terrorist attack… IMO a “good” Jihadist would be extremely unlikely to do that.
@gbrbsb –
From what little we know about these guys, the BIG brother was the religious nut – would not work, would not study (how did he support the wife and daughter? Wife’s parents did it.)
Little brother had nobody else to cling to. Parents moved back to Russia while he was a teen. Even big brother left for – what, 6 months to a year? Kid does go to mosque; searches for roots; not all that into it, compared to bro.
I don’t think the younger was that religious. Had only been exposed to it a few years, and not that devoted. Not a theologian, but was argumentative. Likely did not see much of a future for himself in America, if his brother was any example.
But raised in our capitalistic, materialistic society, he wasn’t hankering to go back to the Old Country (that he could hardly remember) and all its limitations. How good is the weed in Russia?
Suicide seemed the best “out” for him.
(“Nihilism is the only ‘ism’ for me.”)
Don’t know if he was eagerly vying for the 72 virgins.
Brittany Spears would probably have been OK for him.
Perhaps I am underestimating the alleged advantages of not mirandizing him. Everybody in the western world who hasn’t been living under a rock for several decades is at least superficially familiar with the Miranda warning*. People may not always understand the implications, but I have my doubts that mirandizing changes that most of the time.
I understand that in many cases people are not really aware of their status as suspects until it is too late and a clear reminder serves an important purpose. That doesn’t seem likely here.
The idea that he would happily talk but suddenly see the error in his ways and shut up as soon as he is mirandized seems a bit too far-fetched to justify diluting a right. Is it even meant to serve any purpose besides symbolically stripping him of his constitutional rights?
(* Even here in Germany people occasionally complain that they haven’t been mirandized although there is not no fixed wording and the equivalent is only given before formal interrogations.)
That’s another major point. He may choose to not talk anyway. Then what are they going to do – waterboard him in his hospital bed? : /
Yes, PYorck. I was thinking that what has been reported about Dzhokhar indicates he’s fairly intelligent, a decent if not good student, and quite familiar with American culture. It seems to me anyone who has ever watched more than one episode of any cop show would be familiar with the Miranda rule. My guess if that whether they read him the warning or not, he’ll keep his mouth shut and demand to see his lawyer if he wants to, and if he wants to talk he’d waive the Miranda anyway (like some other joker we know). So what’s disturbing here is less the case at hand than the establishment of a precedent. I guess SCOTUS has already ruled on this public safety exception, yes? Disgraceful. And would somebody tell Lindsay Graham to STFU?
I believe SCOTUS has ruled on it, according to the media reports I have seen. Mirandize the younger brother and try him as an American suspected criminal, not an enemy combatant. If he’s going to talk, he’s going to talk – if he’s not, he’s not. I suspect L. Graham is one of those looking to regain the “tough on terror” badge the Repubs “lost” when the POTUS got OBL. I agree though, he needs to go sit down, somewhere.
I do not see a problem with mirandizing him but either way, they were shooting at police and throwing pipe bombs at law enforcement
I think its safe to say they are going to prison, whether they talk or not
THEY, Jun? The older brother is already within his prison, a morgue!
agreed and following the leader
Tsarnaev is a citizen and a criminal. Read him his Miranda rights, even if his throat wound gives him no choice but to remain silent.
Tsarnaev is a suspected criminal.
@Dave
So true, as Dave Cullen, author of Columbine also argues:
Link to full article, “Is Boston Like Columbine?” if your interested: http://tinyurl.com/botvbcp
I don’t necessarily agree with it as I am not sure of the fully informed voluntary participation of the youngster as according to friends speaking out he was a very normal teenager, but then so was Bundy when he was a teenager I suppose.
Dave — The two turkeys, now identified, who jacked the Mercedes informed the owner that they were the bombers.
gbrbsb–Thanks for the link . The article is a well thought out reminder that we shouldn’t rush to judgment (as so many did regarding the killing of Trayvon Martin) before the facts are in. I haven’t followed the case at all closely and the only strong opinion I have about it is that the justice system must deal with it (and be seen to deal with it) legally and properly.
Trained Observer–Thanks for the info regarding the guy who alleges that the Tsarnaev brothers stole his car. He might be telling the truth. The alleged thieves might also have told him the truth.
I would like to know exactly what they said to the suv driver. We’re the bombers or We’re the guys they are looking for. The first is an admission of wrong doing. The second suggests they have been accused and sought, but not that the accusation is true.
@bettykath,
It’s preliminary, but I bet the older brother was a loser not going anywhere and the younger brother got sucked in. With the parents abandoning them and returning to Russia, they had no anchor. Other family members shunned them.
At that stage of their lives, all they had left were “bragging rights” to being the Boson Marathon Bombers.
May have used that claim to intimidate the SUV owner. “Don’t even think about fucking us around. We’re tough and we’ll kill you – just like at the Marathon.”
What nobody has explained yet is how long it took them to transfer the other bombs (I think two more pressure cookers, plus grenades) weapons, ammo from the previous vehicle to the SUV.
There could have been elements of the Three Stooges in that process.
No further word from the SUV owner – negotiating top dollar for his TV rights?
Even if they said the second, that they were the ones being sought, the driver may have heard the first, that they were guilty.
I’ll bet Judy Clarke is involved in this case right now, even if only on a consulting basis.
She represented Jared Loughner.
She’s impressive.
Hello Professor!
I have read news accounts of this kid being questioned by the police from his bedside. How is someone who have been shot point-blank in the neck, able to write responses to anyone? This is what I have read from recent media accounts.
I don’t have the answer. I do object to the interrogation without advice and waiver of Miranda warnings and I do not believe the public safety exception applies to this situation.
Do the feds still have their ‘black lists’ to silence journalists who speak out?
From the Boston Herald published today:
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/04/miranda_wrongs_feared
I mean if you grab a guy in a parking lot and holler, “where are the other bombs?” and he answers and you didn’t mirandize him, OK, excused. But if he’s in a bed in a hospital and you are standing there and the threat is gone, and you STILL do not mirandize him? NO EXCUSE.
Agreed!
What was happening in that part of the world 20 years ago, systematic rape of Muslim women was one thing. What conditions for a child in their first few years, where is his mother, what happened to her? It is critical to this citizen of the USA, to understand his whole picture. What baggage was he carrying around from his earliest years through his arrival in his new country?
QUTESTION: Once a person becomes a naturalized citizen, can that status be — not sure of the right word here but am thinking revoked or rescinded by the feds, if it can be proven there there was (again, not sure of word) malfeasance in the process of becoming a citizen?
Apparently older bro’s effort to become a citizen got held up, in part, because of a domestic altercation. But the younger one slipped through …
How can a child, 19 less a decade, 8 or 9 years old, be to blame for any ‘slip through’? Toss him back?
He was that young when he immigrated, but he was only naturalized pretty recently.
ay2z~ Yes, toss him back. That is exactly what they do here in Texas with minors brought in without legal documents (illegal aliens, as termed around here). They get put in large holding cells worse than I would house a dog in, keep them there for weeks or months while some advocate “tries” to find family back in the country of origin. Eventually, they do get dumped back in their country of origin.
ay2z — they both were here legally. The younger “slipped through” in the process to become a citizen, while the older, nowdead one got caught up in difficulties leading to delay.
Don’t believe so, but do not know.
John Demjanjuk, who was accused of being a notorious SS concentration camp guard during WWII, had his US citizenship revoked for lying about his wartime activities when he applied for citizenship.
Regarding the accused bomber, I agree that he should have the same rights as any other criminal suspect.
Good point, Dave. Had forgotten about Demjanjuk. (The soon to be fate of Fogen.)
Off topic, but here’s an article on plans by the wealthy Koch brothers to purchase news outlets (BTW including the Orlando Sentinel) to propound their POV:
I wonder how it will change the frame of reference nationally, like when the Wall Street Journal changed hands.
After carnage of Sam Zell taking Tribune Company private, either of the Sentinels could do worse.
Am amused by NYT observation that the papers, valued at roughly $623 million, would be a financially diminutive deal for Koch Industries … with annual revenue of about $115 billion.”
‘Financially diminutive’ translating to biz talk for small potatoes or chump change.
Prof, I don’t know whether the early family member news reports reached the US once the IDs had been made. She was said to be a lawyer, or at least a lawyer prior to coming to Canada. And she has spoken again publicly since Dzhokhar was taken into custody.
Something strikes me as different from what we know about extremist religions terrorists, suicide bombers do not care about telling some person they jack a Mercedes from, that they are the bombers then let him go to pass along that message.
The resident who looked inside the boat, was not held at gunpoint nor was he entrapped by the gunman, he walked away to call police. The neck wound could have easily been a sniper shot and so it is possible the suspect would have been able to take down one more person and at the same time attract attention to end is life in what a true jihadist would seek to do.
There is so much more to gain by learning the whole story of these two men, than satisfying the need for revenge and any political cause foreign or not.
Miranda exclusions are not a blank page, are they?
Edited and not replaced in first pp, the female lawyer is Dzhokhar’s aunt, his father’s sister. Sorry about that.
@ay2zz
I say the same. I don’t know, but something just doesn’t tally with the usual al qaeda inspired, extremist, Jihadi, internationally backed and/or promoted terrorist plot. You might be interested in the article I just found by the author of Columbine; not saying it is correct but the author doesn’t presume to be either.
http://tinyurl.com/botvbcp
Glenn Greenwald
geeze
Thank you for posting on this Professor. When the emotive response is running so high it is important for those who can to keep on course and try to make the voice of reason heard above the din.
Excellent article Greenwald’s, as is the article he links to from the “Electronic Intifada” called:
with the direct link: http://tinyurl.com/bvse7wk if anyone missed it or is still interested.
Thank you. This article answered all my questions.
The International community, hopefully, will be watching this closely.
Media is already asking the death penalty question and in that tone, there is an impression of the death penalty being some national soother.
Dzhokhar has a story to tell and it may be personal rather than political or religious. It may be possible for factions elsewhere in the world, to want to use these two (perhaps isolated individuals acting on their own) after the fact, for political gain, favor with the US or its allies.
It is creitical to get the whole story, not what could possibly be fashioned by foreign political interests after the fact.
Dzhokhar is going nowhere soon. The authorities were contident to allow citizens back into the street well before his capture, and they suggest openly there is no futher threat that they knew about, and they would certainly have ranked any threat rather than giving the all clear so soon.
Prof commented on how young Dzhokhar looked, the photo of his body shirt pulled up, shows how tiny his frame appeared. What happened in the first years of his lilfe as a child refugee fleeing from war, what personal trauma could he have carried with him to America.
This needs to be understood. The death penalty will not help if this was a child in trouble, with a brother who was in even greater trouble.
What would young Martin Richard want?
Most people just want to be happy and free from suffering, but some make terrible mistakes trying to achieve this.
I strongly support the idea that this 19 year old LOSER (as his uncle called him and his brother) should be advised of all his legal rights and tried in a civilian court. He’s an american citizen who likely is guilty of a crime on american soil and out nation needs to be seen by the world as one that is a nation of fair play and justice for all, not a leader in exporting torture on any pretext.
I don’t think the kid will be tortured, mind you, but the clear message should be that we are a nation of laws, fair play and equal justice not hatred of outsiders, immigrants and the mentally disturbed.
Read Glen Greenwald’s excellent column on this same topic.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/20/boston-marathon-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-mirnada-rights
The title is:
What rights should Dzhokhar Tsarnaev get and why does it matter?
But that would be written by the editor, not by the respected columnist.
The real headline should be: WHAT RIGHTS DO AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE AND WHO IS ACTING TO SUSPEND THEM?
Lindsey Graham’s offensive comments were bad, and John McCain and others chimed in – “constitution, what constitution?” they seem to be saying but the Obama DoJ has already taken legal and formal strides down that dark path, that slippery slope, that veritable poop-chute to undermining what our entire nation is supposed to be all about. I for one am sickened by the idea that it takes circumvention of what we are supposed to stand for to somehow “protect” the liberties we cherish.
We are either a nation of laws or we are not. That kid has a right to a lawyer, and should be advised he has the right to remain silent.
They already told the carjacking victim that they were the Boston Marathon bombers…. I’m guessing he will cooperate with authorities anyway. Why undermine what we stand for for such little potential gain. There are no ticking devices. Get real. These were two typical jerks who became disgruntled and acted out a dark fantasy like any other high school shooter or garden variety maniac and I highly doubt that they were under the command of anyone at all, much less their own full faculties.
And just so some truth gets out there – the 19 year old is seemingly involved in heinous crimes. But when he was in the boat hiding in that backyard he did not fire his weapon, if he even had one at that time, at the officers who first arrived. ALL the gunfire heard on recordings were the result of his sticking his head out of the boat and only having one hand visible. Authorities on the scene, at that time including elements of the Watertown police force and possibly Mass State Police opened fire with a deafening barrage of gunfire that was uncalled for, and may deprive us of the ability to question the suspect and learn more about the motivations behind the crimes. After the shots were fired it took another two hours for him to surrender, during which time he likely continued bleeding and apparently barely moved until he finally stood up on his own and exited the boat after the arrival of police negotiators. This delay was unfortunate at best and could have been avoided had the first responders not been so trigger happy. For all we know he was surrendering the first time. During this lull they also used flash grenades to stun him but did not at that time rush in to subdue him. I don’t know what decisions were made by whom and why, but merely want to point out that there is always more to the story than one first hears on the boob tube.
The older brother sadly seemed to be attempting suicide by cop when a bomb was thrown that he more or less charged into the blast field of the night before. It’s now known that he emptied his pistol or pistols at the first responders who then were able to tackle him and were in the process of handcuffing him when the 19 year old drove a car at them, scattering the cops at the last second and running over his brother’s dying body that was riddled with bullets and possibly explosive damage and shrapnel from his own device. The body was dragged some 40 feet before it broke free.
Its been reported the older brother had a device on him with some sort of triggering mechanism. I await a credible report about that because this statement gets blown into “he was wearing a suicide vest” upon being repeated but I don’t know if that is true at all, and tend to doubt it.
The car then only drove some 300 yards further before the 19 year old jumped out – yet the search area set up to find him excluded the block the boat owner lived on. This seems like a easy error that could have been corrected to me, but what do I know? Can they not draw a circle?
Also, a pool of blood and urine was soon found near the abandoned vehicle behind a house in the neighborhood – around 7AM i think that belonged to the fleeing suspect. Wouldn’t this be the time to bring in tracking dogs to pick up the scent of his trail? I’ve heard no reports of this happening, but as a “country boy” I can tell you that any good dog and his handler could probably have found that kid in about 45 minutes with that good of a scent to begin with.
I’m no anti-government libertarian, by the way. I’m just someone who thinks common sense should be applied once in a while, and that “terrorism” is a meaningless term when you don’t apply it wisely. These brothers were LOSERS and not pawns in some international game, IMO. Treat them as criminals, not “enemy combatants.”
@jd
Excellent post! I agree with you and am somewhat dismayed with the decision to not read this kid his Miranda rights.
WELL stated! Excellent post.
Thank you. I was just comparing this to a uni bomber type operation, rather than an al qaeda type fanatical jihadi attack some media are trying to make out before knowing hardly anything about it, and then I read your post.
IMO there is something here that just doesn’t add up to “enemy combatents” under international support and I’m no conspiracy theorist not even for this case. Sadly to me it appears this was home grown, at very least for the youngster, and the shame is that it will probably never be known, because from what UK media are saying it seems he will unlikely live or if he does he has brain damage.
I agree and am holding my breath. I don’t want to see this incident inflated into some big international incident that the gov’t uses to their own ends. On one hand, they do need to find out what the older man’s connections were in Russia, or wherever, but other than that, there shouldn’t be a complicated agenda.
I think the people remaining at Gitmo should be tried in federal courts as criminals and get the shizz over with so the nation can have some closure with 9-11.
They still have to be treated as “suspected criminals” rather than as “alleged enemy combatants.”
I also read a report w/ photo that the older brother was stripped and put in a police car so I don’t understand how he could have been blown up, shot and run over.
@bettykath-
The ER docs state so many puncture wounds it is up to M.E. to decide cause of death. Al limbs intact. Not “blown up” but could be hit by shrapnel from his own final bombs; also recipient of many gunshots.
Getting dragged by an SUV for 30 ft. (one report sez 40) is not going to make your day, either.
Re: police stripping of suspect: to remove any self-immolation or explosive devices that could kill the suspect and/or kill/maim others. SOP.
Would be important to keep this guy alive, if they could. Needed to get him to E.R. ASAP.
The cops wouldn’t dress him up again, because ER would only have to re-strip, to treat him. Time is of the essence. I understand DOA at hospital, but other reports say arrived in critical condition, then died.
In respect of the younger, IIRC the New York Times wrote that he was cursing as he was being taken to the hospital while everywhere else you read he can’t be questioned is unable to speak?! I think the journalists are so desperate for an exclusive bit of info that they interpret anything from nothing.
There was a guy who was stripped & put in a police car but it wasn’t the older brother. The older brother was already dead. The naked kid was an innocent guy who got caught in the middle of one of the confrontations. He was let go.
As I understand the purpose of the exception, it is to find other immediate threats. By the time he is able to talk, that time will have expired.
I have to wonder why the FBI needed the public to identify the “unknown” suspects when the FBI had been watching the older brother for over 3 years.
There are things about this that have a foul odor.
also AFTER they talked to him he was allowed to go to russia for 6 months and return here and the fbi wasnt even watching him!
You understand the exception correctly and, yes, I believe that time period has expired. Police also have announced that the threat is over.
I agree. The contact with FBI is quite curious.
It seems to me that, even if there are valid reasons for the ‘public safety exception’ in some cases, the reasons for applying it in this case are fading as the hours go by. The suspect is recovering from injuries to the neck that may make speech difficult if not impossible, and his severe blood loss from that and other injuries may have affected his mental abilities, at least in the short term, which could call into question the accuracy of any written or texted responses to interrogators’ questions.
A commentor at another blogsite pointed out that even though the Aurora CO shooter had boobytrapped his apartment with an explosive device, the public safety exception wasn’t applied in his case, and he wasn’t charged with a terrorist attack. It embarrasses me to realize that the details of that atrocity have already faded from my memory. I think I must be numbed by the number of such atrocities that have been committed in recent months and years.
I’m glad you covered this issue. I was aghast at the news and still don’t quite understand the twisted logic even though I’ve read a ton of articles about Miranda rights and
Apparently no one has been able to talk to this kid yet because he’s sedated and has a
Trained Observer, I wouldn’t jump to conclusions yet that the Tsarnaev family is like the Fogens. I can imagine that they know the older brother had problems, but they’re probably as stunned as many of the younger boy’s friends here in the US that he joined his brother in jihad.
I wonder professor if not mirandizing him could later on derail any trial and make the court process start over. If he lives. I get the feeling he may be in worse shape then they’re telling us.
oops – *and has a throat injury*
double oops -* Miranda rights and not mirandizing*
I was rushing ahead with my thoughts! Hurrying to get off the screen and spend a day with family! 😀
They said he had an exit wound out his neck, so it looks like he tried to shoot himself through the mouth in a suicide attempt.
The remedy for a Miranda violation is to suppress the statement, not to dismiss charges.
Interesting. Makes sense. I still don’t understand what they hope to gain from not mirandizing. Seems like just another slippery slope.
Not jumping to conclusions, two sides. Mumsy is saying “framed,” while daddeo is claiming “innocent.”
Fortunately, it’s not just a matter of who dropped two of the pressure cookers, but that there’s a living witness on the heist of the Mercedes. And an injured cop who just might live to testify.
But the kid definitely needs to be Mirandized.
(Wonder if they’ll pump him full of truth extracting drugs while sending in nurses/docs associated with FBI/CIA/Homeland Security.)
I can think of no valid reason NOT to read him Miranda.
He looks really young to me, not that that necessarily means anything,
Just SMH.
19, I believe. Old enough to explain himself to defense counsel.
His defense counsel is appointed by the state, already named the firm, so a firm rep claimed in the news.
It’s going to be a federal prosecution and I believe the Federal Public Defender is already working on the case.
Whether they have been permitted to meet with their client is unknown, but most likely they have been denied access.
last I heard, Obama wants him tried in civilian court
http://www.politicususa.com/obama-rejects-war-terror-boston-bombing-suspect-civilian-court.html
FTA
My mistake, sorry, federal. I was using the term ‘state’ as the federal government/country. That was not the right term, thanks for correction.
That would also mean that the dp would be allowed, where at the state level, there would not be that option.
Not necessarily, because the feds have declined to seek the death penalty in federal prosecutions that take place in states that do not have a death penalty.
EDIT: There are also other factors to consider in determining whether to seek the death penalty. For example, mitigation evidence such as role in offense and the nature of his relationship with his older brother.
You also might see a guilty plea to life without parole to avoid a trial and possible death sentence.
Do not assume the death penalty is automatic.
Thank you.
Link to the photo that shows how small framed he is.
http://www.trbimg.com/img-5173e7ec/turbine/chi-boston-bombings-20130421/400/400×225
Small-framed and so what? Newly minted “citizen” Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, the Chechen immigrant linked to the marathon bombings and subsequent shootings, was a Greater Boston League Winter All-Star wrestler in 2011.
He’s likely not as small-framed as Martin Richard, 8, who will never be 9, (just like Trayvon Martin will never be 18).
Apparently Tsarnaev is intubated at present, has what are believed to be self-inflicted throat wounds, and — according to medical reports — is drifting in and out of consciousness. I’m hoping his docs don’t get overly carried away with pain killers for this small-framed little specimen.
TO, doctors take an oath to practice medicine and not law or politics. I would expect any physician to treat this patient as an injured human being and not as a “suspect” or a “criminal.” And if Fogen had gone to the hospital by ambulance on 2/26/2012 as he should have, I would say that he should have also been treated as a human being, whether injured or plastered with catsup.
Malisha — I don’t want to see him knocked off by those who think a trial would be too expensive or politically awkward. I am also not convinced he’s being treated (now that the patient is beyond the emergency entrance) by just any regular medical staff. Special operatives may well be in medical attendance.
Marandize him. This business of manipulating Miranda timing strikes me as wrong. Advise this terrorist kid (brainwashed by his bro or otherwise) of his rights, and get on with it.
P.S. While suspect’s uncle seems to have his head on straight, note how the parents are taking the Z-family route in defending their disgusting kid.
Mirandize.
Mirandize.
Not so sure about the Uncle in Boston, he seems to be as nutty as the rest of the family. Why didn’t HE come out with their identities after their photos were made public? He HAD to have recognized them! Not to mention ALL other family members.
Has anyone seen or read his other Aunt and Uncles WHACKADOODLE interviews in Canada (where they emigrated to) on CTV and other outlets? Canada needs to keep a close eye on them, they sound potentially dangerous. And both parents seem even worse!
Oh brother, here we go again.
I support this. I don’t see any reason not to mirandize him.
people i FEAR what happened this week…..the government shut down an entire city for NO valid reason……the searched many homes without warrants, they fired countless rounds without actually having a proper target in their sights…….and indeed no matter how horrible the crime we still need to use the courts to show PROOF before we execute anyone.
as far as that goes i have seen NO proof at all these 2 are guilty?????
why not at this time make public any picture they have of one of them placing the back pack.
and the video they showed clearly the second guy had a backpack on that was NOT “heavy”.
those that would give up an ounce of liberty for a pound of security will get NEITHER!
I agree.
I agree.
Anyone else participating in the 24 hour internet blackout 4/22 to protest the passage of CISPA ? It’s a movement initiated by our friends, Anonymous.
looneydoone~ An internet blackout on EARTH DAY??!! NO WAY! I’ll be quite busy with my students on the web and in the yard to be blacking out MY internet.
I participated in the blackout last year.
As an American citizen, by whatever means, he deserves that right. Is it too late to mirandize him? I mean, he’s barely clinging to life; it’s not like he would have understood it anyway. I just don’t see how two crazies from a lunatic fringe could be considered enemy combatents.
It was reported on CNN last night that the 19 yr old is incubated and sedated, unable to speak. Seems that he took a gunshot to the throat and is on a respirator.
But I agree — our constitution must apply to everyone.
He is entitled to Constitutional protection on US territory, whether he is a citizen or not.
@PiranhaMom. I did say “everyone.”
@Xena –
My post followed yours by 4 minutes – you’re speedier at typing than I – I wasn’t trying to interpret your “everyone” – looks like we were both responding to previous posts. You get the gold medal for speed. (I get the dust off your cleats – but it’s an honor to follow in you.)
One of the incredible elements of US justice, despite all those who like to take potshots at it, is that when you are in the US – even illegally – the Bill of Rights protects you.
Me neither. Agreed!!!