The differences between regular guilty pleas and Alford pleas

Monday, April 8, 2013

Many have asked about what will happen if GZ pleads guilty to murder second degree. Most want to know if the prosecution will lay out its case for the public.

The quick answer is probably not.

There are two types of guilty pleas: a regular guilty plea and an Alford plea.

In a regular guilty plea, the defendant must provide a factual basis to support each element of the crime that the defendant is admitting. The factual basis is written by the defendant’s lawyer and it contains the bare bones necessary to support the charge. For example, O’Mara might write something like this:

On or about February 26, 2012 in Sanford, FL I shot and killed Trayvon Martin in the chest at close range with complete disregard for whether he lived or died. I did not even call 911 for emergency medical assistance and I did not attempt CPR. He did not attack me, he was not armed with a weapon, and I did not shoot him in self-defense. This incident happened in Seminole County, FL

Before accepting his guilty plea, Judge Nelson would place him under oath and read that statement to him and ask him if it was his statement and if it were voluntary after considering all of his rights, including the right to be presumed innocent, remain silent, and force the prosecution to unanimously convince a jury that it had proven each element of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt.

She would accept his plea, if he answers those questions affirmatively.

The Alford plea is quite different because a defendant concedes that the prosecution can prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt without admitting that he committed the crime. The prosecution then provides the factual basis for the guilty plea by attaching police reports, witness statements, and forensic reports to the guilty plea. Defendant admits that he has reviewed those reports, their contents are true and correct, and the court may consider them in deciding whether he is guilty.

The court takes a recess and reviews the materials. When she is finished, court resumes and she accepts the plea.

Alford pleas are based on the SCOTUS decision in North Carolina v. Alford, 400 U.S. 25 (1970). They permit defendants to continue to claim they didn’t commit the crime, but the legal system makes no distinction between the two. Both are treated the same for sentencing purposes.

A good example of an Alford plea would be a defendant who claims innocence agrees to plead guilty to take advantage of a plea agreement to plead guilty in exchange for the prosecution’s agreement to not seek the death penalty. This is what happened in Alford.

Due to the nature of the Alford plea, more information about the crime is incorporated into the record than would be the case with a regular guilty plea.

Obviously, much more information comes out, if the case goes to trial.

I do not like Alford pleas because they generally permit defendants to avoid accepting responsibility for what they did and that can come back to hurt them, for example, when a parole board reviews the case and decides to deny parole because the defendant never has accepted responsibility for what he did.

Failure to accept responsibility also typically results in a determination that the defendant is in denial and not amenable to treatment in cases where treatment is a sentencing option.

I hope this summary of the two types of guilty pleas and how they differ answers your questions.

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503 Responses to The differences between regular guilty pleas and Alford pleas

  1. Two corrections: First, in Florida state courts, defendants are not required to give a sentencing allocution, So if Zimmerman pled guilty or No Contest (he never would) he would stand silent. Second, Life means Life; there is no parole in Florida. If he was sentenced to life in prison, he would do life in prison. If he was sentenced to a term of years, then he would be eligible for early release only after completing the minimum mandatory sentence.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Richard Hornsby –

      This is from Richard Hornsby, the “superlawyer” defense attorney in Orlando?

      Reading The Frederick Leatherman Blog, with all Fred’s “students’ ” responses?

      Welcome aboard, Counselor …

  2. tonydphotog says:

    Not sure if anyone already mentioned this quote from Gladys’ letter-

    “Despite the mythological monster the media created, those who knew George did not abandon him, and those who have become familiar with him throughout the course of this ordeal have prayed daily for him, his wife, his parents and siblings.

    His parents? I guess whoever wrote this, either Fogen or Jr, didn’t proofread the letter before posting it online.

    • esentrick says:

      Good catch! Trayvon’s family stated it best regarding that POS letter

      is disingenuous and disrespectful to the very system that is currently affording him every available opportunity to defend himself. The arrest of an admitted killer is not a violation of due process, it is due process.

  3. ay2z says:

    The only quote from junior is his last sentence, revealing that they have no concept of the victim, except two things, ‘the system, and poor fogen’.

    Not a mention of Trayvon, which means what happened to him does not count for some reaons in their minds.

    It wasn’t just an injustice what happened to George; it was an injustice to justice, itself.

    No justice for the unarmed teen killed while on the phone with his girlfriend, and while on the way back from spending a few coins from his pocket on a can iof iced tea and for hs little brother, a pack of Skittles that he would never get ”

    Now seems to come the soft push to the public, to improve the family’s crazy image.

    • Rachael says:

      I just don’t understand it, I just don’t. If my son had shot someone, even if it had been “justified” I could never feel “good” about it. Even if he was a police officer and it was in the line of duty. I would still want to hug the parents of the “bad guy” and say I felt so awful.

      How can someone take a life and feel no remorse? It is one thing to stand up for your family in a situation like this, but to put the other family down is sick and inexcusable as a human being.

      This is a life – he took a human being’s life!!!

      Talk about injustice to justice itself!!

      • looolooo says:

        And to think I was under the impression that their cousin (witness 9) exaggerated (due to emotions) her exasperated and diabolical description of the Zimmerthug KKKlan. She has my appologies.

        Imagine what family BBQ’s at their house must’ve been like. Lawn Jockey’s abound!

      • jo says:

        @ rachael, i’m with you. Heartless bunch of fucks.

    • Malisha says:


      Sociopathogenic family.
      Narcissistic, abusive, punitive mom.
      Ineffectual, self-aggrandizing father with delusions of adequacy.
      Two brothers locked in a sick sibling rivalry for life.
      Family habits of denial, fake piety, and rageaholism.
      Shades of incest.
      Closed system, malodorous, musty and inaccessible.
      Emotionally impaired sister with codependent brother-worship.

      Guess WHO?

    • Jun says:

      I have said this many times

      Their whole family are very selfish and thoughtless, and only care about themselves

      • ay2z says:

        All you have to do is listen to the father in his chat with FDLE, and especially his remark about well, the mother was under stress like everyone else

        Everyone else, like who? Never considered the mother of a slain child as more than stressed like the rest of them,

      • Rachael says:

        Is that the one where he was asked if there was anything else they could do for him and he said make this go away(wink wink)?

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ Don’t forget ay2z; they maintain that Trayvon “viciously attacked” George, hence no, he doesnt have any rights. FORGET the clear evidence that Trayvon NEVER touched their sociopathic Georgie. The Zidiots are totally blind to evidence.

  4. ay2z says:

    A Gladys Zimmerman quote worthy of accurate copy and paste– what is it that she is saying?

    We read that she said “Journalists should be ethical by using the charges to explain that a murder took place, …”.

    Ok…. so Grace’s statement is “a murder took place” and ethical jouranlists would report that a murder took place from the charges. Ok, we have concluded the same thing from the evidence, not just the charging document, Ms. Z. And it follows, that your son IS a murderer.

    YB: Why, in your letter, did you criticize both members of the media and attorney Benjamin Crump for using the word “murderer” when referring to your son?

    “Journalists should be ethical by using the charges to explain that a murder took place, not that the person charged with murder is ‘a murderer,” Gladys Zimmerman said. “My son is a man who was looking out after his neighborhood. He was keeping people safe. He was attacked.”

    • ay2z says:

      Grace Zimmerman: “a murder took place”.

      • ay2z says:

        “…Gladys Zimmerman, the now retired court worker of 28 years as deputy clerk of the court for Virginia’s 31st Judicial Circuit….”

        Gladys reads, writes and communicates in English, plenty well. Unless she was cleaning staff maybe.

      • Rachael says:

        I agree that she reads, writes and communicates in English plenty well, but the wording of the letter did not sound like her. It did not sound like Sr. either.

        That was Jr. ALL the way.

      • cielo62 says:

        ay2z~ LOL! That is the ONLY true thing she has said to date!!

    • Jun says:

      Stalking, terrorizing, and killing an unarmed 17 year old kid, is not “keeping people safe” or “looking out for the neighborhood”

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Darn tootin’! Killing your neighbor’s guest is NOT looking out for the neighborhood– how stupid do the Zimmermans think people are?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The NW program creators knew that following people would be dangerous and create unnecessary dangers for both parties. The rule not to follow was because they knew that doing this made the neighborhood unsafe.

          A person being followed is more likely, if unarmed, to fear for their own safety. While a person who is armed, will more than likely be annoyed or even enraged. In either case the law gives such people, the right to take defensive measures. While the law prohibits the follower, if armed, from doing anything other than withdrawing.

          In effect the law says that you cannot, as an armed person, approach and confront an unarmed person, in a full on combative situation, then claim that because the unarmed person tried to take your weapon, you shot them in self defense. Nope, will not work, because the law says that the unarmed person has a perfectly legal right to take your gun from you. Which is another way in which the law is telling you that if you are armed and confront an unarmed opponent, you must withdraw. This is because the armed person is the only lethal threat.

          When GZ admitted he was following Trayvon, what he was, in effect telling the NEN operator is: “I am a lethal threat and I am attempting to bring the subject within range of a lethal encounter.” Hardly a wonder that the NEN operator replied: “We don’t need you to do that!” Of course the NEN operator did not know that GZ was carrying a fire arm. But that was GZ’s responsibility! He tries to evade this responsibility by saying that he forgot about it.

          Well, he wasn’t supposed to forget about his lethal responsibility, and that is reason enough to convict him, because his failure to handle his weapon responsibly resulted in the loss of life. Which is in addition to and not an alternative of, killing a child who was not a lethal threat, but whom the law recognizes, had a perfect right to be a lethal threat if he could.

    • ay2z says:

      If GZ is found guilty, she will (and where have we heard this before, the ranting mother in the Caylee case? Similar, except that Junior plays Cindy’s role as crazy agitator to get face in news).

      YB: If George is found guilty, what then?

      “I will go door to door, knock on every door in America to make sure what happened is reviewed,” Gladys Zimmerman said. ….”

      • ay2z says:

        Oops.. you do not really mean EVERY door in America, do you? What about all those alleged threats you keep talking about as your family uses outdated NBP’s agitation pre-complete investigation and resulting information to bring charges?

      • ay2z says:

        Did, using the defense’s basis for calling what Dee Dee allegedly said, (and we don’t know what she said under oath in the depo) as some form of ‘LIE’, should we apply that same standard to Mrs. Gladys Zimmerman, retired court worker and wife of retired Virginia court magistrate’s statement that reads–

        YB: Will you be at the trial June 10?

        “Not sure. I am just not sure,” Mrs. Zimmerman said.

        When pressed for more specific details, she was firm in saying that decision was “confidential.”

        Sure sounds like a LIE situation to me, said for a reason to protect herself, or to not reveal the truth in the confidential information.

        Just like Dee Dee may have done, except that Dee Dee said under oath, yeah, to ‘hospital or somewhere?

        Do you think a mother who is willing to knock on every door in America, is not willing to stand by her son in the courtroom? Right. She knows what she will do, she just lied and avoided the answer.

        • Xena says:


          Do you think a mother who is willing to knock on every door in America, is not willing to stand by her son in the courtroom?

          IMO, Mama Zim will not be in the courtroom during GZ’s trial. My reason for saying that is because Mama Zim has anger management and control issues. She will interrupt the proceedings by speaking from her seat, embarrassing her family even more than they are now, and verifying that GZ was raised in a dysfunctional family.

      • Malisha says:

        Well she better the Hell not knock on MY door because I will invoke the SYG laws right then and there I’ll tell you THAT.

      • jo says:

        yes funny how trayvon deserved to be followed and shot because he didn’t belong in the neighbourhood yet the zimmermans can go wherever the hell they want and even harass people in their own homes, hope george zimmerman doesn’t open the door he might shoot her.,

  5. ay2z says:

    Gladys and Junior now on Orlando’s front page, a sit down with the news anchor at her desk. This is how they intend to sway their jury, that’s obvious.

    Let’s see if Gladys uses words like Placate and terms like ‘false narrative’ in the same sentence.

  6. ay2z says:

    The appeals court will give further media fodder to the defense, in their video arguments in front of the panel.

    Each appeal is on live video at the time of the hearing, and in this high profile case, it will probably be posted more quickly than normal in the archives.

    So, what the defense argues to the judges will be like a mini-trial depending on what they can get in, and what they have appended might be what they will discuss or try to get in front of the camera?

    Appended things like fogens’s statement to Singleton. EMT KEV’s interview and observations, etc etc. Not about Crump but about fogen’s SYG claims regurgitated for the cameras, not necessarily for the appeal judges.

    Can they get away with any of this grandstanding?

    • Malisha says:

      These guys get away with all kinds of grandstanding all the time. Grandstanding is 9 points of the law.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I hope not because, they put on a mini trial at a bond hearing which was wrong for the judge to allow them to do. putting the driver of the EMS vehicle on the stand, to testify to a lie at a bond hearing, was just downright wrong.

    • Jun says:

      That can be easily taken care of by simply saying

      “Your honor, everything will come out at trial. The defense wants to argue the case everywhere except the trial, which seems to put through a certain point. The defense is misrepresenting the evidence and selectively presenting the case, which is technically tampering. If the defense agrees, we can have a proper hearing right now of all the evidence, otherwise, they can wait until trial to do it, and be quiet regarding it at this point.”

  7. ay2z says:

    Docket updated yesterday- SAO’s response to sanctions is filed.




  8. Two sides to a story says:

    This is off topic, but I dedicate it to the Treestump types around the country who are trying so hard to rewrite history e. . .

    • Xena says:

      @Two sides

      This is off topic, but I dedicate it to the Treestump types around the country who are trying so hard to rewrite history ….

      Thanks for the link, but I’d like to dedicate Millie Jackson’s two word symphony to them. 🙂

  9. jo says:

    i get so sick of this family complaining about the media. The media this the media that. YOU are using the media, YOU are trying to influence the jury. And don’t get me started on how poor George is telling the truth. “the upcoming trial will not disappoint you”, what the hell. Why are you advertising it like it’s the latest thriller, and Where is this evidence that proves his innocence that they keep speaking of, be specific!!

    Why the hatred towards crump and jackson and not against the people actually prosecuting him. Of course the kids family wanted action taken.

    Don’t court the fucking media and then cry because the media report the story.

    “stay vigilante”, yeah because what the world needs is more vigilantes shooting innocent black kids.

    what a national shame that family has become

    • ladystclaire says:

      This is why I say that, they should unseal some of Fogen’s sealed correspondence because, the family of the defendant is doing their best to taint the jury pool, with BS such as this. they are goiing around trying to paint the murderer as that little molesting alter boy of yesterday. they do this while smearing and slandering his victim, as well as his parents.

      IMO, if they released just some of it, this would put a stop to the Zimmerman family and their antics of using the media to taint a jury. Now I know this won’t be done because, the defendant has to be protected at all cost because of his rights, and to hell with the victim of his crime. why does the laws in this country, give the criminals more rights than their victims? this is wrong on so many levels.

  10. ay2z says:

    ‘Timing’ of the public promo of this letter. Sounds like the mother wrote it with anger in her heart towards the blacks who had arranged to persecute her innocent son. And probably she had a bullet point list from the defense and family spokesperson which she hit in the correct order.

    There is a lull right now as appeal to get Crump to a depo microphone, and the support from the crumbling tree house is crumbling. Good time as any to get their media talking about them again.

  11. jo says:

    ugghh!! these people scare me. So far i have not seen one fact to back up anything this twat says. Pray for everyone except the dead victim and his family huh, good fucking christian you are mama z.

    • Rachael says:

      Like I said, I wouldn’t be so quick to blame it on mama z. We know she didn’t write that and she may think entirely differently – seems they have her bound and gagged in the basement and only untie her for brief moments because they don’t want us to know what she really thinks.

      • @Rachael I was gonna say that too! we all know she doesn’t speak-a-English very much! ololo this is a ploy to convince us weak-ass, feeble minded, women folk to pity her, and then hurry up and encourage our incredibly dominate husbands to donate at THE BEGSITE!

      • “If you read this letter with the hopes of finding material to mock or rebuke – please stop reading now, because this letter is not intended for you.”

        see she’s actually trying to boss us around on line!! OMG!! seriously??

        but it does give us a window into gz’s sense of authority and dominance over all us peons! wow! I hope this comes into evidence during sentencing!

      • ay2z says:

        I thought mrs Z worked for the US courts? She must have good enough command of English to do that, and she certainly could have had someone assist with grammar, spelling and phrasing.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        One thing you can say about the family – they’re presenting a united front despite whatever they might privately feel. You can certainly sense the pain and yet at the same time the arrogance that Fogen’s life was somehow more precious than Trayvon’s that you can see between the lines makes my head spin.

        Actually, the implicit nod to violence with the lax self-defense laws we have in the US makes my head spin.

      • jo says:

        they are all one and the same to me, they are all complicit. Next thing you know they’ll be asking for donations because she had to leave her weekly bingo get together because crump said something to the media 6 months ago.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t mind if you go ahead and blame it on Gladys.
        My vote: Blame it on Gladys.

      • Malisha says:

        Shannon, that bossy “you don’t get to answer back to me ’cause I’m rubber and you’re glue and whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you” stuff is the stuff of the third grade playground. The entire family is bossy, immature, emotionally stunted, intellectually challenged and developmentally lost in a private cesspool that branched off the gene pool a while back. I sure hope the rest of the Afro-Peruvian tribes are not infected with the same problems!

    • I know, they actually scare me too! it’s freaky and uncomfortable to even listen to them talk and read their creepy letters! ( i still haven’t read the whole thing yet! I wouldn’t read it by myself!! that’s why I post it here first, so I wont be alone! LOL) I do know what you mean.. weird!


    here’s cnn’s take on the whiners letter
    my god! what a NERVE!! they are insane really!

      Dear Friends: Our Mother, Gladys Zimmerman, has written a letter on the occasion of the 1 year anniversary of her son George’s arrest. She has asked me to publish the following letter:
      Today, April 11, 2013 is the anniversary of the most unfortunate arrest of our son George. I am writing from my heart and with incalculable gratitude to our family members, dearest friends, and those we have not personally met but who have nonetheless offered their unwavering moral and spiritual support. Those who read this letter should do so of their own free will, and do so because they are interested in its message. If you read this letter with the hopes of finding material to mock or rebuke – please stop reading now, because this letter is not intended for you.
      April 11 2012 will be forever remembered by the Zimmerman family as the day the justice system failed us as Americans, and as a consequence an innocent man was arrested for a crime he did not commit, solely to placate the masses. George was charged with murder. By confusing the public and manipulating perception in order to sway the “court of public opinion”, Benjamin Crump & co. finally achieved their “first base” victory.
      A year later, we find ourselves – as Mr. Crump put it – in “third base” posture: we are awaiting trial. Throughout the past year, as evidence came forth and was later published, we have fought at every turn to be certain George is afforded a fair trial and equal protection under the law. It is imperative now more than ever that George receive fair treatment by the judicial system, as this is the quintessential birthright of every American.
      From the beginning, this case has been heavily publicized and a false narrative was developed surrounding a very real tragedy when there was little evidence available to the public. It is astounding that despite the vast amount of information and evidence now available that supports George’s self-defense claim, the majority of the media avoids its publication. It is indeed alarming that even more media outlets do not regret misinforming the public and have not taken steps to retract the fabrications they are responsible for perpetuating.
      I remember a year ago, when George was arrested, there wasn’t a television station in the country or a newspaper in circulation that didn’t “break news” of his arrest by placing his picture along with a sound byte or caption on their airwaves or publications. When George was incarcerated, the food he bought was considered “news”, the snacks he ate and even the undergarments he purchased were fodder for even more “news reports” about him. Those days were particularly disheartening and saddened me profoundly, but as a mother I knew that only strength would see us through. There was absolutely no Page 1 of 2.

      • justifiable reason my son should have been charged for a crime he didn’t commit and there was no just reason he should find himself incarcerated either.
        The media, with the help of social media made it their prerogative to judge and sentence George before and after his arrest. Even members of Congress and self-proclaimed “activists” used and routinely use to this day the term “murderer” when they speak of him – in effect they are re-enforcing the only acceptable judicial outcome in their eyes. Many have seen to it that he be judged by the public, the very public they were keen on misinforming.
        It is for these reasons I share my thoughts and heart with you today. Despite the mythological monster the media created, those who knew George did not abandon him, and those who have become familiar with him throughout the course of this ordeal have prayed daily for him, his wife, his parents and siblings. Without your constant prayer, words of comfort, and endless search for truth – our family would not have made it this far.
        As we approach June 10, the date George’s trial is scheduled to begin, I want to thank you again for your support and the trust you have placed in George. My son has always told the truth and your trust is well-placed. The upcoming trial will not disappoint you. The truth will finally be revealed to many, but to some who have always seen through the narrative – the truth George always told will be “revealed”, but rather “confirmed”.
        Stay vigilant, stay focused on facts and evidence, stay focused on prayer.
        Pray not only for George and his family but ask God the Father to speak directly to the hearts of those who have mistreated George for far too long.
        Pray also that an injustice such as this is never again allowed to occur within our great nation.
        Thank You, God Bless you all and God Bless your families. 2 or 2

      • parrot says:

        “Our Mother, Gladys Zimmerman, has written a letter on the occasion of the 1 year anniversary of her son George’s arrest. She has asked me to publish the following letter…”

        Mrs. Zimmerman’s English is not a native speaker or even a near native as can be ascertained from her interview. She is fluent enough but clearly Limited English Proficient (LEP).

        She did NOT write this letter herself.

      • ay2z says:

        Agree, but she is taking possession of it as her own, and publishing and promoting it as the message from the killer’s mother.

        She just has, like politicians who can afford them, a scriptwriter.

      • Malisha says:

        To quote the letter:

        “If you read this letter with the hopes of finding material to mock or rebuke – please stop reading now, because this letter is not intended for you.”

        Uh… that means, from the strangely monarchistic “high point” that the Fogen Family believes it occupies in the world, they not only get to choose who is an acceptable victim and who is simply a throw-away “savage”; they also get to choose what is a crime and what is a simple privilege of exalted types like themselves and their perfect family, prosecution of which must be seen as a contemptuous act of appeasement of “the masses” ; and of course, they get to choose what is “news” and what is disrespectful and disreputable verbiage from unreliable [read “disagrees with our royal family] sources.

        They are saying, in effect:

        “Only if you agree with us are you entitled to react to this letter in any fashion; only worshipful agreement with everything said in this letter is an appropriate or acceptable response; everything else is wrong, bad, not allowed, and contraband.”

        Well, lord-high-executioners-comme-poobahfoobahz, listen up:

        I am NOT going to obey your dictate that I must not read on or comment on your letter because of your little “do not mock” line. Here’s a little mockery for your idiotic efforts, you f*cking punks (chuckle, giggle):

        Your son is only innocent until proven guilty.
        Everything in your letter is not worth a bucket of warm spit.
        Things are moving along here in spite of your pompousness, your foolishness, your undeserved assumption of superiority (to ANYONE!), and your worthless “protesteth too much” words of outrage that your son, your sacred son, is subject to the same law that any non-Afro-Peruvian on the street is subject to. Your poor victimized martyred son has been charged with second degree murder and you can fuss and fume about it until now until the — well, until July, really. Meanwhile I am working on my letter to publish oh, say, about the end of June.

        Oh, and a bit of advice: You seem like slow learners. Get ahead of this thing and start now on learning the regs for visitation in Florida maximum security prisons.

      • jo says:

        @ Malisha, ^^ that right there should be published. You nailed it!

    • Rachael says:

      Some of the comments, like everywhere there are comments, are despicable.

    • ladystclaire says:

      CNN should be ashamed of allowing some of those comments to be posted at their site. what the hell is wrong with some people in this country? calling AA chimps is *HATE* speech all damn day long and, yet they allow these racist to post anything they well please.

      Some might get mad at me for what I’m about to say but, I’m going to say it anyway. IMO, the jury is still out as far as this being the greatest country in the world. I say this because, how can it be with people such as those who support the murderer of a child, just because of the child’s race? not only do they support the murderer, they also have a smear campaign going against the victim and his family.

      Folks we are regressing instead of progressing in this country. one would think it is still the 60’s instead of the year of our LORD 2013. what a damn shame, to still see just how racist some people in this country really are. a child is dead at the hands of a POS and, we have a *MOB* of bigoted racist whites, wanting him to get away with this child’s murder. SMDH

      • jo says:

        *high five*

        you said it!!!!

      • ladystclaire says:

        High five back at you and, I called CNN to let them know just what I thought about them, allowing comments with hate speech in them be posted. like I’ve had it with these hateful despicable people and, their hate for AA in this country.

        They are in essence going overboard with their hate filled comments, which they are directing at a child murder victim and his parents. they are also directing their hate to all AA. you know, this is very scary because, we don’t know who these people are and what they are capable of. instead of using sheets and hoods, the pointy heads are hiding behind a keyboard to spew their hatred of AA as well as other races of minorities. we are living among some very sick people.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I TOTALLY agree on the ‘greatest country in the world rhetoric.’ If there’s no dissent on this account, how do we make improvements? We need strong citizens brave enough to stand up and question the status quo. The US is a country of high ideals, but that doesn’t mean we have reached the pinnacle.

      • jo says:

        hey lady, good on you, something needs to be done. I mentioned in another thread how someone, ross kemp, louis theroix, michael moore..someone needs to publicaly expose this disgusting sub-culture of vulgar racism that has bubbled to the surface with Trayvons death. It makes me feel physically sick.

        The people who mock claims of racism and then in the same sentence say black people should be chained to the porch (yes you Wagist pigs) and the terror campaign by the nuthouse should be exposed to the ‘masses’ who are currently just getting on with their lives with no idea that this hate is all around them.

        And that the Zimmermans thank this sort of support and encourage it, i’ve never seen them say “hey pull your racist heads in”, no they thrive on the support and money of these people….that needs to be exposed too, just exactly who the zimmermans are playing up to and why haven’t they denounced that kind of behaviour,….

      • rnewton32 says:

        Hey Lady, I agree with what you said, but it’s not just bigoted Whites. Its just bigoted racist scumbags. We shouldn’t stoop to their level and generalize them as only being White. I have coworkers, friends, and family of all different colors and races. We all follow the case, and we all want to see Fogen hang. I happen to be an AA woman married to a Caucasian man and he has had dreams of strangling Fogen in the courtroom! I have read comments from racist whites, blacks (self haters), latinos, and more that support this POS! But their hate and self-hate does not outweigh in any way, shape or form the support of the many beautiful people that support Trayvon and his family. We are more in quantity and quality. I have much respect for you lady. I love reading your comments, but we are all so much better and more educated than those scumbags. Race is a part of this otherwise Trayvon would be alive today. I will never deny that nor take it out of the equation. Everything must be laid out on the table, no matter how hurtful or shameful it may be, as you say in this the year of our LORD 2013.The struggle still continues, and the Martin family are superb examples of how to go about fighting for the rights of your loved ones and all victims of violence. They are a class act. The Zimmerans will never hold a candle to these lovely people. But lets not do a disservice to our white brothers and sisters who are on Trayvon’s side and helping with the struggle. My husband read your comment and he felt a little sad so I wanted to send a reply. But if we did misinterpret your comment, We apologize!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      “My son has always told the truth and your trust is well-placed. The upcoming trial will not disappoint you.”

      Never mind what she says about her son; I hope the upcoming trial won’t disappoint the Martins and Fultons.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m sure God’s plan is very different than the Fogen family plan. Fogen’s incarceration will be deeply transformative for them all, I hope.

      • ladystclaire says:

        As for her *LYING* son always telling the truth, does she not remember that her little alter POS, lied to the court about his finances and, his passport? this family is so pathetic and, at the same they think the common sense public is just as addled brained as they and their supporters are.

        I will be so damn glad, when this trial is over with Fogen being convicted so *WORTHLESS* and, his stupid antics will go away.

        Joonyah had better be worrying about his own possible incarceration for his part in hiding Fogen’s money. they should not be permitted to get away with this.

  13. LeaNder says:

    Deposition/Subpoena Chris Serino

    I am wondering if anyone of you can make sense of these somehow confusing details, I just stumbled across.

    Let me start with an article by Jeff Weiner and Rene Stutzman in the Orlando Sentinel concerning the deposition of Chris Serino.

    Stutzman/Weiner February 18, 2013:

    Serino was deposed Wednesday, according to court paperwork. Also deposed that day were three investigators with the Sanford State Attorney’s Office who worked on the case before Zimmerman’s arrest.

    I made a datebase concerning depositions myself for some reason, I can’t remember a file on either gzlegal or the 18th Juridical circuit in this respect.

    Now interestingly on Diwataman’s list of depositions you can find a link to a supposed subpoena of Serino about depositions linking to a seemingly legitimate gzlegal pdf.file in this context, a link that (meanwhile?) leads nowhere.

    February 13, 2013[NOTE: This is Subpoena for Deposition, not a Notice of Deposition]
    2:00pm SPD Officer Christopher Serino

    If I search via Google for the link there are only two sites that contain the supposed link. One surfaces on CTH, again in a comment by Diwataman: Here it is

    They surely look like legitimate links. What is this about? Why the link to the sign in page of gzlegal in this context?

    Notice the comment by Diwataman with the link to gzlegal is one day after the Sentinel article.

    As far as I can tell non of the diverse subpoena’s seem to fit what Diwataman suggests on his site. Neither can I find the deposition, as already stated above. Thus, I somehow was not aware of a deposition of Serino by now.

    Can files be withdrawn? Can a special deposition file be not published? Unfortunately the more detailed case history by The Seminole County of Clerks for February is enormously complex, they may not use the same term and one cannot check the files they base their entries on.

    Any idea?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I recall reading one of Diwataman’s blogs about his exasperation when GZ Legal changed a bunch of links to documents, making him have to change all the links on his site. Maybe he didn’t fix one or GZLegal didn’t fix one.

      You might want to try linking from another direction.

      • LeaNder says:

        linking from another direction? What ya mean?

        I still should find something if I search the site via Google or the gzlegal search should bring back links if I search Serino, I can try again.

        Just as I would expect an entry relating to the issue on their twitter site. Can’t find anything there either. As they seem to be busy on different issues at that point in time.

      • LeaNder says:

        Ther isearch tool by the way offers an option to click on the “more results” link. I managed it only one time to get to a specific search page that way. Maybe that is a special tool for subscribed supporters only? I have no idea, but I am wondering why it never works apart from the one exception where I discovered the tool.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was thinking perhaps you could find a valid link from another site listing the same links that would take you to the right place at GZ Legal. But If you’ve done google searches, etc.

        I’m lazy/busy and don’t like to refer back to documents unless people post them here, so I can’t be of much help except to say Diwataman was upset with GZLegal links and that perhaps you’re struggling with exactly what exasperated him at the time.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think there is some sort of page at GZLegal in which new posts are stored before formally published, from what I’ve heard. I don’t know if that relates to your issue, Leander.

        I do recall reading that Serino and other officers being deposed in mid-Feb.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I just had a thought. If you have an account to the Fogen Forum at TalkLeft, you might do a search there. There may be a link or a conversation about the Serino depo.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Is this the page you were trying to access?
        It times out in Foxfire.

  14. SearchingMind says:

    @ Xena

    There are some defense attorneys who argue – as I did – that JN neither considered nor ruled on the waiver-question. Personally I thought that was (be it not a big one)the only Achilles heel of Nelson’s Order and became a source of concern after the Writ of Cert was filed.

    On your prompting, I went and reread that Order again. I think you correctly think that JN did rule on that issue. I agree. But here is how I nuance my position:

    O’Mara, pursuant to Shelton rule, had to show that:

    1. No other means exist to obtain the info he sought from Mr. Crump;

    2. The info sought from Mr. Crump is relevant and non-privileged and that

    3. that info is crucial to preparation of his case.

    JN, citing Hickman and Horning-Keating case law, ruled that:

    a. No amount of showing of necessity can be made to justify production oral statements made by DeeDee to Mr. Crump, whether presently in the form of his (Mr. Crump) mental impressions or memoranda;

    b. Forcing Mr Crump to repeat or write out all that DeeDee told him and to deliver the account to O’Mara gives rise to grave danger of inaccuracy and untrustworthiness. No legitimate purpose is served by such production.

    c. Doing so would also amount to forcing Mr. Crump to testify as to what he remembers or what he saw fit to write down regarding DeeDees remarks. Such testimony COULD NOT (and that’s huge!) qualify as evidence;

    d. To use such non-evidence for impeachment or corroborative purposes would make Mr. Crump (an attorney) much less an officer of the court and much more an ordinary witness. The standard of the profession would therefore suffer.

    JN essentially said that whatever oral info Crump gained from DeeDee IS NOT AND COULD NOT qualify as evidence and as such non-disclosable. THE ISSUE OF WAIVER THEREFORE DOES NOT EVEN ARISE / IS MOOT. This is what you correctly meant – I assume. (ignore the typos).

  15. pat deadder says:

    Is Osterman on anybodys witness list.When he was on Dr. Phil he said he met Shellie at the scene and he said he would die for his friend but he wouldn’t lie for him.Oh my and he said GZ was saving money he must now know fogen is so full of bullcrap.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wasn’t that segment a showcase of lowbrow drama from the “die but not lie” onward? O’s been mighty quiet of late. Would appreciate links to wit lists on either side if available.

      • LeaNder says:

        This is the famous “Benjaming”, if I remember correctly, witness list filed on March 27

        There was a rumor on the other side I have not checked that the state did not even file his updated own at that point. Well, I can only use one link anyway.

      • ay2z says:

        Dr. Phil’s background investigators looked into the fogen’s records to prepare for speaking to the Ostermans and to be able to challenge them.

        Anyone notice that Dr. Phil had information (and the show’s lawyers would have vetted every point) about the incident at the bar where he went out after a ‘big guy’ (fogen’s words) who took his friend outside? Because all we have heard is ‘anger management’, but Dr. Phil said ‘alcohol’ treatment. O’s contradicted him, then Dr. Phil repeated and let them call it what they liked (seemed that way).

        What did the investigators for this show reveal about the ‘anger’ management and what is in the record about alcohol related issues?

        If not, does Dr. Phil face a lawsuit by fogen for this mis-representation of his problems?

      • Rachael says:

        Hmmmm, maybe Dr. Phil will be on the witness list.

  16. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Trayvon was only suspended for three minor types of things–tardiness, small graffiti on locker, and empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana.

    MINOR things.

    NOT for being disrespectful or talking back

    NOT for fighting

    NOT for bullying

    NOT for truancy

    NOT for being caught smoking in the bathroom

    NOT for being uncooperative

    NOT for being aggressive

    NOT for threatening anyone

    NOT for leaving campus

    NOT for being inattentive in class

    NOT for going into a rage

    NOT for lying

    NOT for racially heckling

    One of Travyon’s teachers said he was a student that received A’s and B’s.

    Trayvon was a mild-mannered kid with a bright future.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      As for George, he had to have his anger management course extended because his participation was not satisfactory:




      Miller, W Michael


      gz had to extend his pretrial diversion program in 2006 because as the document (docketed by: E Martins) shows :

      “I (gz) now advised by my Pretrial officer that my program participation has not been satisfactory, and I hereby agreed to have my period of supervision extended for a period of (two)2 months, with a new termination date of 9-10-06, in order to successfully complete the Pretrial Diversion Program”

      By the way, that document is filed in the Orange County Correctional Department’s area. Case #48-2005-MM-010436-O/A

      This case # matches up to the one about the felony assault on a police officer…..that was reduced to a misdemeanor because he took an anger management course.

      • Tzar says:

        Question: if Trayvon had that record would that not be evidence suggesting him capable of instigating a fight with his killer?

        then what does it mean if has killer has that record?

      • Rachael says:

        That’s really bad if you ask me. I mean it is one thing to get a felony charge reduced to a misdemeanor because you take a diversion program, but when you have to have the diversion program extended – for ANY reason – that is just bad bad bad. And if it was because of “participation” issues, it shows (at least it shows ME) that he wasn’t interested. My GOD, the guy should have been kissing the ground that he was allowed to get a diversion from felony assault on a police officer, but he has to get an extension because his participation isn’t satisfactory? Yet he can get a gun and shoot a kid and the kid is a thug?

        How effn upside down does it have to be? It doesn’t get more plain obvious than this.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Good catch. I hadn’t seen this before.

      • paperview says:

        Wow. That’s news. I had not seen that before.
        Is that in any online record to see, or is that from the courthouse documents?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      If you read George Zimmerman’s 2005 MySpace page you will see that gz is the real thug:


      Click>George Zimmerman’s MySpace Disparages Mexicans, Mentions …

      “I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!”


      “Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges……”


      “2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!! The man knows he was wrong but still got this hump, Thanks to everyone friends and fam, G baby you know your my rock!”

      The article link above explains these last two comments by George:

      In 2005, a 20-year-old Zimmerman was arrested and charged after an altercation with a police officer. The same year, his ex-fianceé filed a restraining order against him and accused him of domestic violence.


      Also, from the same MySpace page:

      “… I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…”

      • ay2z says:

        You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Also, from the same MySpace page:

        “… I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…”

        When I read that, didn’t know what fogen meant. Sure would be interesting to have some context. Maybe we will when the FBI is done with its ongoing investigations into fogen and family’s backgrounds. And it could be just bragging his own power he doesn’t have.

        Breaking it down, I’m not nor ever have been a Myspacer and don’t know the vernacular. Just trying to figure if I understand, because it sounds like a scene from a movie instead of family life of the most wonderful family in the world.

        1. ” …I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin”

        (he has a buddy who he can rely on to get something done for him)

        2. “a lil something with my sister”

        (assume it’s a friendly, not unfriendly, action towards his sister)

        3. ” and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! ”

        (Sis’ was referred to as ‘G’ on the 2005 page where fogen called ‘G’ his “rock, this reveals a good relationship in which she has his back, there for him, stands by him, support each other.

        But what about ‘his’ boy who jumps on his bike and all his boys boys jump on their bikes at fogen’s call. And we learn that fogen has been on the phone with Sis as the boys rumble on over to fogen’s house. That is, unless the boys rides are shown in the street riding video upthread 😉

        Here, fogen describes his personal exponential power, turning one biker into many by the time they arrive as his house.

        This could be all a fogen-fantasy built from a simple starting point suich as Sis needing muscle for a household move, but then….

        4. “They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched…:

        On the face of it, ‘they do a year’ sounds like doing jail time, and they have enough respect, loyalty, fear (whatever) to keep fogen’s ass from getting pinched. ‘Pinched’ is straightforward, hetting nicked, arrested.

        Is fogen dreaming of life as one of the GOODFELLAS? Or does he dream of being Robert De Niro’s sidekick Joe Pesci, the hotheaded killer?

        Sounds like he’s stolen his little story from the young Henry Hill as he gets pinched, does time, and doesn’t even open his mouth.

        Another rerun source? Remember how Henry ended up living like a schmuck? Remember what happened to DeNiro’s boy Tommy?

        My bet is this is an air-filled, violence filled movie sourced brag to impress friends, like the Myspace ruler that adds two inches onto his height. (not aLLIE when he does it, the ruler’s fault)

        What a schmuck!!

        (but why bring Sis into this story? that part is courious)

      • Rachael says:

        “il something with my sister”


      • cielo62 says:

        YAHTC~ Too bad that can’t be used at the trial! It would nail his character (or lack thereof) pretty convincingly.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      gz killed a child who was innocent of all of gz’s unfounded suspicions.

      Here is what Investigator Serino told gz about Trayvon:

      Serino: Trayvon Benjamin Martin. He was born in 1995, February the 5th. He was 17 years old. An athlete, um, probably somewhere, somebody who was gonna be in avionautics, um, a kid with a future. A kid with folks that care. In his possession we found a, uh, can of, uh, iced tea and a bag of Skittles. And about $40 in cash.

      NOT a goon.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      One of Travyon’s teachers said he was a student that received A’s and B’s.

      Trayvon was a mild-mannered kid with a bright future.

      While Fogen was a angry and violent failure with a dim future.

  17. two sides to a story says:

    RZ has posted this letter from his mother on the anniversary of Fogen’s arrest –

    • Nef05 says:

      I find her letter offensive. Particularly this portion:

      Throughout the past year, as evidence came forth and was later published, we have fought at every turn to be certain George is afforded a fair trial and equal protection under the law. It is imperative now more than ever that George receive fair treatment by the judicial system, as this is the quintessential birthright of every American.

      She utterly ignores the FACT that had her son afforded Trayvon HIS American birthright, her son wouldn’t even be in this situation. She, every member of her racist family and racist fan club, with their *Trayvon had no rights and fogen is the victim* mentality, can seriously KMA!

      • ladystclaire says:

        DITTO and, these family members of Fogen, need to stfu and dispense with the smear campaign of their son’s deceased victim. they are the only family, that has acted in an inappropriate racist manner. their spawn is facing a M2 charge and hopefully a conviction, due to his own actions on the night of 02/26/12.

        Just as someone else has already said, these racist can support this murderer as long as they wish to but, they need to stop the smearing the reputation of a deceased child, who is no longer here because of their racist VILLAGE IDIOT.

        Maybe he could get a job being just that, because he is definitely an IDIOT!

      • Xena says:


        Maybe he could get a job being just that, because he is definitely an IDIOT!

        GZ was already paid more than $200,000 for that job. He lived true to his title — spent it all and has nothing to show for it.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        I hate to speak harshly about the efforts of an older person, but isn’t that letter from Zimmerman’s mother the most delusional slop you’ve ever read? Evidently the whole family is keeping from her the multitude of lies – lies that contradict each other – belched forth by her lying son.

        And, of course, it’s the handiwork of her other slimy son, Zim Jr.

        She should have left those kids in Peru.

      • tonydphotog says:

        No way did she write this! She barely knows the English language!!!

        Even when Jr. tweeted earlier, “Friends, on the eve of the most horrific abuse of the judicial system in recent history, our mother has asked me 2 publish a letter, standby”, I didn’t believe she was the one writing it. They don’t let the women in the family speak up!

        Funny how SnoBro believes that “TRUTH HAS NO AGENDA” and claims that he’s an “Advocate 4 truth & harmony” (from his twitter acct). They clearly have a very dishonest, and racist, agenda.

        I couldn’t believe the other day he tweeted that he was cooking his family FRIED CHICKEN for dinner and included a photo. The tweet has since been deleted, but it’s sickening how blatantly racist they all are!!!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yep, she ignores the simple fact that the only thing legal that GZ did that night was call the NEN number. Everything he did after that was illegal, which is why he has no self defense claim!

        Outside of a court of law, everyone can say this or that. They can say that GZ flew to the moon on a broom made of bees wax. None of it matters.

        In a court of law, however, what he did has to be held up to what the law allows first. After certain facts are established, the judge will determine how the jury will be charged on the law. For example, he will let them know that, if GZ was committing an illegal act at the time, he cannot claim self defense. Then he will explain that if they feel Trayvon was reaching for GZ’s gun, they may not consider that as provoking a legal use of the gun in defense of himself, because he carried the gun to the fight. Ergo, Trayvon would have been within his rights to try to take his gun away from him.

        One of the reasons I’m certain (on top of all the other reasons) that GZ is toast is, I’m sure that the jurors are going to find that GZ had no business following Trayvon and that because he did, his actions illegally caused Trayvon to fear for his life! Trayvon would not have been in fear for his life, if he did not detect a stranger following him.
        That is one of the reasons why the Police told GZ not to follow, in his NW lessons and again via the NEN operator. It is illegal to cause strangers to fear for their lives, full stop!!! GZ has absolutely no reason at all that he can use, to justify why he caused Trayvon to fear him.

      • Malisha says:

        How’s this for Afro-Peruvian hyperbole:

        “on the eve of the most horrific abuse of the judicial system in recent history,” —

        This, about Fogen being CHARGED with a crime for KILLING an unarmed kid?

        So, they think it’s more horrific than, say:

        Since the year 2000, fifty-nine (59) (COUNT THEM: 59!) exonerations of persons wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced to DEATH and having been held on DEATH ROW for years while the exonerations progressed; and …

        Nevermind. I can’t stand making these obvious comparisons. Their complaint is equal to: “This peanut is the biggest object to ever have been seen in the last decade” —

      • Two sides to a story says:

        While I empathize with her plight as a parent – Fogen killing Trayvon is a terrible tragedy for the Fogen family as well – I also find it offensive that she’s really not addressing Trayvon’s death in this letter. She seems to cheerlead for God and Country as if it’s mighty fine to take a gun to a fistfight. I’d have a lot more empathy if she wished they could all turn back the clock and that her son had never gotten out of the truck and let the police do their job.

      • Rachael says:


        TSTAS – I agree with you. If she would reach out like one mom to another to Trayvon’s mom and say she wished it had never happened, show some compassion for the Fulton-Martins loss – but it doesn’t matter, because we know she didn’t write that letter anyway. For all we know, she might really feel some empathy for Trayvon’s family, which is why they keep her more like a hostage tied up and gagged in the basement rather than an active “participant” in all their BS.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Rachael, she did do a letter to that effect, but they keep running their mouths and it’s difficult to empathize because they clearly want to save Fogen’s butt at the cost of slamming the victim and using patriotism as a tool. They’d be far better off to remain silent, but then, what few dollars are trickling in might not trickle.

      • Nef05 says:

        @PiranhaMom – Yes, I was thoroughly disgusted by it. Immediately. Didn’t take any time at all.

        This could be Jr, easily. He probably got cussed out for the racist tweet situation and decided he’d use his mom’s name, because who is going to cuss out his mom. Or, it could be Pops – it’s not quite as blatantly racist as Jr, but more the type that an experienced older racist like Papa Z is, in being covertly racist.

        I’m sick of ALL of them.

    • elcymoo says:

      Correction, two sides: RZ has posted a letter he claims was written by his mother, but I think that, as usual, he lied. Maybe Robert Sr. wrote it, and maybe Robert Jr. did, but odds are, Gladys didn’t.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @elcymoo, I just read the entire letter and, I’m inclined to see this letter as being written by Joonyah or the lying father aka LJP. these people have no morals what so ever.

      • Gladys Zimmerman:There was absolutely no justifiable reason my son should have been charged for a crime he didn’t commit and there was no just reason he should find himself incarcerated either.

        MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Xena says:

        Mama Zim wrote:

        From the beginning, this case has been heavily publicized and a false narrative was developed surrounding a very real tragedy when there was little evidence available to the public.

        Well, the little evidence available was GZ’s NEN call where he said “assholes” and “fucking coons/punks.” That was a false narrative.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Xena’

          re: “GZ’s NEN call where he said “assholes” and “fucking coons/punks.”

          Did he learn those words at his mother’s knee, or other such low joint?

          • Xena says:


            Did he learn those words at his mother’s knee, or other such low joint?

            Probably closer to the collar bone.

      • Xena says:

        Oh yeah — we must address this part of the letter too;

        When George was incarcerated, the food he bought was considered “news”, the snacks he ate and even the undergarments he purchased were fodder for even more
        “news reports”about him.

        And the jailhouse phone calls too Mama Zim. Please don’t leave those out. Remember, the calls where he spoke in very bad code instructing your daughter-in-law on transferring money to different accounts; placing cash in a safe deposit box; and holding on to his valid passport?

        Speaking of which, what about ShelLIE? Shouldn’t you be thanking people for also supporting her and praying about her case, or is it just George who is awaiting trial due to his actions?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          Good one, Xena.

          Watch the Z’s blame it on the wife … it was her gun.

          • Xena says:


            Watch the Z’s blame it on the wife … it was her gun.

            Yeah — but it was Papa and Mama Zim’s money that paid for ShelLIE’s passport and GZ’s travel expenses and food when he booked out of Osterman’s and hit the road on 4/6/12. (Hahaha)

      • Tzar says:

        Gladys Zimmerman:There was absolutely no justifiable reason my son should have been charged for a crime he didn’t commit and there was no just reason he should find himself incarcerated either.

        Mrs. Zimmerman you are in luck, in Florida, the law provides great relief for people indicted with weak evidence. in fact the relief is so great that if you prevail you can skip trial and be immune from any civil suits. It’s called an immunity hearing. Go for it, get up there and just tell the judge how weak the evidence is and all will be well.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Likely, but we’ll never know.

      • Malisha says:

        The letter was not written by Gladys but nobody has to hide anything from her about Fogen. She is as much in the family delusion as anyone; in fact, it is quite possible that SHE is the family delusion-queen herself. It is QUITE POSSIBLE that she is the originator, the enforcer, and the beneficiary of the family delusion and that Fogen has only done what she would have done herself, given half a chance. I don’t think there is really anybody in that family who is qualitatively different from Fogen.

    • Rachael says:

      I’ve heard her talk, I’ve heard Jr. talk. This was written by Jr. She may have approved it, it may be her sentiments, but Jr. wrote it. Their pants are gonna catch on fire.

    • Rachael says:

      Also, if you notice, Jr. has been pretty quiet lately. However, it is difficult, if not impossible, for him to stay that way. Therefore, from his desk (I think I’m going to start putting from the desk of Rachael S on all my posts, doesn’t that make them look more dignified) he writes something, says it is from his “mother” when it is obviously him because he just cannot keep his mouth SHUT.

      “we have fought at every turn to be certain George is afforded a fair trial and equal protection under the law. It is imperative now more than ever that George receive fair treatment by the judicial system, as this is the quintessential birthright of every American.”

      While I agree with the above ^ I have to point out that George did not allow that birthright to Trayvon. Whatever questions Trayvon didn’t answer to his satisfaction (because he didn’t sound authoritative enough?) does not give him the right to shoot him. He totally bypassed the judicial system. So yeah, he will get a fair trial – and you will see how the judicial system fairly tries someone who takes it upon themselves to be the judge and jury.

      • Rachael says:

        Well of course, you know me. I had to seek more entertainment so I wandered into the wild thinking I was totally prepared:

        “What an elegant, beautifully written letter. Every word rings so true. George is a hero, a martyr and hopefully soon will be a free man.”

        Delusional isn’t even the word for this.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        He was pretty quiet for two or three days but is on a pretty good roll again with his late night tweets, though they’re a little less offensive than before. He claims he’s “taking the high road.”

      • Rachael says:


        Oh, so he was at it again? Why doesn’t he take an even higher road and just STFU?

    • looneydoone says:

      two sides,
      Gladys Zimmerman appeared in an interview with Jorge Ramos/Univision barely 4 months ago (Dec 2012). In that interview ,she stated that her husband and doctors had forbidden her to watch and/or read anything about this matter.

      The letter bears the hallmarks of having been penned by either joonya or her husband…mamacita’s nothing more than a well trained papagayo (parrot).

      • Rachael says:


        I find it *very convenient* that her husband and her “doctors” have forbidden her to watch and/or read anything.

        I still think “they” have her bound and gagged in the basement, just can’t decide if I mean that literally or figuratively.

  18. ay2z says:

    The 5th district court of appeal has been asked to reconsider their own appeal decision made recently in the Casey Anthony case where the number of convictions of lying was reduced to two. Now the defendant claims they have made an error and wants further reduction. There is no impact on sentence already served.

    So, how many kicks at the appeals court can one person have when someone pleads/ and apologizes to an original number of counts (13), adjudged to less than half that number (6), then it’s appealed successfully, now re-appealed to lower the number of counts even further.

    Fogen might be heartened that if convicted even by appeal, he can continue to appeal his plea after any conviction?

    The reconsider document is filed, haven’t read it yet.

  19. kllypyn says:

    I don’t believe fogen will ever agree to a plea bargan or an Alford plea . He has always gotten away with all the crap he has pulled in the past he may believe he’ll get away with it this time. Despite the fact he killed someone.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      His followers think Crump will be deposed and that OM will be asking for a Richardson hearing soon. As deluded as they are, how can we think Fogen is any less deluded? The far right eats, breathes, and dreams delusions.

      • Xena says:

        I’ve been saying all along — the GZ wasp nest doesn’t want GZ to prove his innocence before a court of law — they don’t want him going to trial, PERIOD. It’s so damn funny when they write things about if Crump is deposed, the case will be dismissed. If Witness 8 doesn’t testify, the case will be dismissed. If they can prove that Sybrina didn’t have custody of Trayvon, the case will be dismissed, yada, yada, yada. They don’t have a clue about criminal procedure. Just like White Supremacists, they think their bullying is law.

      • groans says:

        They probably also think that, “if” this does go to trial, the jury will be charged with answering these crucial questions of fact:

        > How old was DeeDee on March 19, 2012? __________
        > Was DeeDee in a hospital at the time of Trayvon Martin’s funeral? ________

      • Jun says:

        To be fair, Omara is the one that should be questioned and deposed

        Throughout this whole ordeal, Omara is the only counsel or court officer, where there is legitimate and reasonable belief of underhanded behavior, considering the tampering with evidence in the form of selective presentation and that he is stated to be colluded to be a part of the bond scamming with the money and the passport

        Personally, I just want this BS to hit trial because too much nonsense that is not even material to the actual issue at hand

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena LMFAO, these are some of the dumbest people in the WORLD, (BIG WORLD.) how is it that they think, that if Sybrina didn’t have custody of Trayvon, Fogen will not be held accountable for murdering him? are these IMBECILES on bath salts or something, right along with Joonyah? it sure seems like they are.

        These very same people were waiting with baited breath for a Florida man to be executed yesterday, for the kidnapping and murder of a ten year old girl. yet, they want to see Fogen get away with the cold blooded killing of Trayvon. for anyone who thinks this is not about race, they are dead wrong. these people who have aligned themselves in support of this murderer, while taking part in the smear campaign of this child, they only see what they want to see.

        For those who can see fit to support the murderer of a AA child, your day of reckoning is coming and, it won’t be pretty either. you have not only supported this child’s murderer, you’ve also tried to smear his reputation in the process. nothing good will ever come your way and, you shouldn’t expect it to.

    • cielo62 says:

      kllypn~ You are right. GZs ego will not allow him to accept anything less than full exoneration. LUCKILY.

  20. ay2z says:

    I don’t know about myths, haven’t caught up yet, but do know about a Z-nightmare because everytime this plays on the tv, I get real scared, lock all doors, hold the big dogs tight, and get ready to dial Fogen’s number for his help– then I remember it has to be out of service, then the ad is over and I remember it was just an ad…. *whew*!.

    Must be his nightmare too!

  21. Rachael says:

    Is it my imagination or is this just insane?

    “If Obama had sons, would they look like this?

    Every time something like this happens, we need to bring up that comment.”


    WHY would MOM say GZ is not racist when he himself (MOM that is) hangs out where there is this crap? How does one deny it?

  22. Cercando Luce says:

    Next, he’ll tweet Myth #10 “14 hrs of NW training by SPD does NOT mean GZ can’t patrol with wife’s gun”
    Myth #11 “Laws of human decency apply to my brother re:taking a boy’s life”

    All myths according to Fogen family

  23. tonydphotog says:

    Fogen Jr is nuts! He’s tweeting “myths” about the case, and somehow he came up with this fact:

    Robert Zimmerman JR ‏@rzimmermanjr 8 Apr
    Myth#5 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ’s a ‘self-appointed’ Neighborhood Watch Capt”-Truth: GZ was elected by his peers2serve as PD Liaison

    • Cercando Luce says:

      The divergence of the HOA’s interest from the Fogen’s is coming into focus. RZ wants it to seem like “the HOA made him do it!”

    • tonydphotog says:

      Here’s Fogen Jr’s myth vs. fact he’s tweeting. Funny how he can’t even number them right!

      Myth#1 “News” co.’s want U2 believe: “Martin was killed while ‘walking home’ w/Skittles & Iced Tea”. Ppl don’t call PD b/c some1’s “walking”

      Myth#2 “News” co.’s want U2 believe: ” #Zimmerman ‘defied’ police orders2 stay in his truck” Despite @TheRevAl declaring so, NEVER happened

      Myth#3 “News” co.’s want U2 believe: “GZ ‘continued 2 follow’ TM” Despite media race-spin, evidence shows “He Ran” i.e.: Out of sight/gone.

      Myth#4 “News” co.’s want U2 believe: “GZ looks ‘perfectly ok’ to me”. 3/29/12, I said medical records would confirm his injuries- & they did

      Myth#5 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ’s a ‘self-appointed’ Neighborhood Watch Capt”-Truth: GZ was elected by his peers2serve as PD Liaison

      Myth#6 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ had a gun, TM had Skittles” CONCEALED gun was exposed as GZ was losing consciousness from a beating.

      Myth#7 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ called PD b/c a Black person was wearing a hoodie” -Dispatched ASKED GZ abt TM description & clothes

      Myth#8 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ said ‘F’ing Co*ns'”. When there is ZERO evidence2 back the racial narrative, the “news” makes it up!

      Myth#8 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “GZ ‘confronted’ Martin”-There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE this is the case, it’s a #schemeteam allegation

      Myth#9 “News” co.’s want U2believe: “TM’s DNA not on GZ’s gun = a problem”-Neither GZ, R dad or myself EVER said TM got a hold of GZ’s gun.

      • Jun says:

        Man, he’s really stupid, yo LOL

        Jeez, the guy cant handle the truth or reality

        Nor do any of his points make any damn sense

        Myth 1 – people call the police all the time for pointless crap, such as the Trayvon murder. Fogen Jr does not even have the research or stats to back up his assertion. Besides, Trayvon was killed while walking home with Skittles and Ice Tea. Everything else Fogen Jr says is his own biased, unobjective, unresearched take on things.

        Myth 2 – No one said he defied orders to stay in his truck. It would have been his best option, is what people are saying, at that point.

        Myth 3 – Fogen did continue to follow. By Fogen’s own admission, he and Trayvon was “by the clubhouse”. Trayvon’s dead body was found about 600 feet from the clubhouse, where they both started at, and where Trayvon began running from the clubhouse and Fogen got out his truck and went after Trayvon. If Fogen did actually stop following, he would not have ended up that far from where he started in the same direction as Trayvon. There’s also 3 witnesses (8, 18, 2) and also witness 1, geography, and timing, that shows there is no other way for the defendant to have ended up where he was, if he did not follow the victim.

        Myth 4 – He was perfectly okay. Fogen knew it, which is why he objected to going to get checked by a medical expert and even the EMT stated his injuries were minor and just needed to be cleaned, and had already self healed. There is also no records of Fogen seeking any cure for his alleged “death injuries” and by record, they self healed.

        Myth 5 – Fogen was self appointed. There was never any vote or law enforcement organization that placed him in that position, or any authority that placed him in that position. Fogen self appointed himself NW and then the HOA just let it go, even after numerous complaints, which is why they got sued and had to settle.

        Myth 6 – How is it a myth, when Fogen did have a gun, and Trayvon had Skittles? That is actual fact. There’s also no proof of Fogen losing consciousness from a beating.

        Myth 7 – Fogen did call the police on a black teenager, wearing a hoodie. I do not see what his beef is with that statement, it is just fact.

        Myth 8 – It sure sounds like he said Fucking Coons to numerous people. It is reasonable to believe he used that statement and is not made up by the news, it is simply recorded on a police phone call, and sounds like Fogen stated Fucking Coons.

        Myth 9 – Both Fogen and Ostertrench claimed Trayvon got a hold of the gun. Speaking of lack of dna, there’s no dna transfer on Trayvon’s hands, sleeves, or cuffs, which by his logic, means Trayvon never got a hold of Fogen, at all.

      • Rachael says:


        “Myth#1 “News” co.’s want U2 believe: “Martin was killed while ‘walking home’ w/Skittles & Iced Tea”. Ppl don’t call PD b/c some1′s “walking””

        Maybe people don’t, but GZ does.

        After reading #1, it was very hard to continue reading. Either Jr. doesn’t know the evidence or he is crazy – or both.


        Fogen jr did the equivalent of pulling the grenade and throwing the pin, HAHAHAHA.

    • Xena says:

      Truth: GZ was elected by his peers2serve as PD Liaison

      Ha!! The HOA President didn’t know about GZ until residents contacted him asking who was the guy coming to their homes unannounced with a clipboard.

    • Rachael says:

      “elected” OMG! LOL

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Tony –

      So GZ’s SnowBro sez GZ “elected by peers” to serve as PD liaison?

      I get the “lie” part in liaison, but, IF, fact, the dumb ‘n dumber HOA Board who accepted the cheap & dirty offer by GZ to become wannabe cop @RATL are his dumbass bro’s “peers,” they must all have been NON-owners stiffing their landlords out of the rent payments.

      Yep. That’d make them George’s peers.

      • tonydphotog says:

        And one of his peers, Frank Taaffe, is really upset over the HOA settlement.

        “im gonna sue not gonna pay another cent they can kiss my ass HOA”

        I’m pretty sure he hasn’t been paying his HOA dues, anyway. Isn’t he in foreclosure?..

        • PiranhaMom says:


          “Re: “And one of his peers, Frank Taaffe, is really upset over the HOA settlement. “im gonna sue not gonna pay another cent they can kiss my ass HOA”

          Tony, I have been waiting for this. The HOA can NOT refuse to release the details of the settlement AS IT APPLIES to the homeowners, even if some or all was picked up by their first insurance company (and I seem to recall a report last summer that the limit on that policy was $35,000).

          The million dollar policy they hustled out and got in March of 2012 (the cost of which pas paid from all 260 home owners’ dues) was ONLY to protect the Directors on the HOA Board, if they were personally sued while “serving” on the Board.

          So why doesn’t Taaffe sue his Home Owners Board? They are the ones why hyped Zimmerman as the resident vigilante. The vote they must have taken to agree to the settlement terms must have been taken AFTER their D&O insurance came into force (3/30/12).

          If he thinks it was a lousy idea, why doesn’t HE sue them for, say $100,000 EACH, for his pain and suffering?

          Maybe Travelers will settle with him.

          He should hire Benjamin Crump.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Trouble is FT admits to being a NW member himself. Not good for any suit he might want to file. He says that he quit in December of 2011, but there was no one to report his separation to because no records were kept and there was no procedure in place to do anything formally. So, while he is free to claim that he quit at anytime he chooses, anyone can also claim that he never actually did, because either way there is no way to prove either point. Except that, if FT complained about any security matter after his claim to have quit, that could be evidence that he had not, in fact, quit.

        • cielo62 says:

          tonydphotog~ yeah, the foreclosure that never closes!

      • Trained Observer says:

        I thought he was in foreclosure. If he’s hanging onto his property by a thread, it oughta show in Seminole County property public records, unless he’s disguised it with a fancy-ass trust in some other name.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          They’re letting people stay in their foreclosed homes, because occupied homes deteriorate slower and run less risk of squatters coming in and doing damage. Once the market picks up, however, he’s out. He’s just too far behind to catch up and he’s got zero equity.

          • Xena says:

            The case number for Taaffe’s foreclosure is 2011CA003752. A default judgment has been entered against the HOA. On Nov. 26, 2012, Bank of New York Mellon filed a motion to strike Taaffe’s affirmative defenses. The docket does not provide for any further actions or filings after that date.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I wonder if the mortgage was “registered” with MERS, if so it wasn’t a legal mortgage but just an unsecured loan. The banksters who used MERS as a replacement system for local registration of transfers of ownership, did not follow the lawful rules needed to create a legal mortgage. Now they must embroil homeowners with paperwork, to keep them from discovering that they’re really fighting against, home prepossessions based on unsecured debts. Obviously that would not fly in a court of law, but hey, as they say, if the issue is not raised then who is the judge to raise it?

            Anyway, lots of banks threw owners out, only to discover they could not sell the houses. The houses stood empty and deteriorated with the passage of time and lack of attention. Mold that probably would have been caught an abated, had the homeowner still been living there, grew unfettered until remediation was more costly than the unsalable house was worth. I’ve got a lot of stuff on MERS and the subprime mess HERE just use the on blog search box, any string you like should work

      • groans says:

        PiranhaMom – I am lovin’ the “SnowBro” name!! 😆

        It is so descriptive of and fitting for its subject – who has demonstrated sufficient moral turpitude to warrant that his name, too, be forgotten and unspoken.

        Unless you object, I plan to adopt it from now on. Thank you.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Would not deny you the pleasure, although “SnowBro” is almost too sweet a name for this irritating, lying loser. But, he does “snow.”

          (I thought I would get a smackdown from The Professor if I went with “SmutMouth.”)

      • Rachael says:

        He wasn’t in foreclosure, at least not AFAIK, but the house he was renting was. But probably because he didn’t pay the rent. IDK. LOL

      • looneydoone says:

        BlowBro jr
        papagayo mamacita (family matriarch is a well trained parrot)

    • Trained Observer says:

      His peers? You mean other renters busily stiffing their landlords for rent money?

  24. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Matt Gutman ‏@mattgutmanABC 22h
    @rzimmermanjr yet you don’t mention that we uncovered the photo which the defense used to get your brother bail!
    Robert Zimmerman JR ‏@rzimmermanjr 22h
    .@mattgutmanABC “BC he was black” is race-baiting garbage you reported as FACT. Pictures ARE facts, which journalists should “uncover”.
    Matt Gutman ‏@mattgutmanABC 22h
    @rzimmermanjr it’s also fact that we were first 2 report the medical report on his injuries plus the picture of his head wound. Get it right
    Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
    Shadow Dean ‏@PCNoMore 21h
    @mattgutmanABC @rzimmermanjr So u r saying u had no part in this? making up for earlier greed? do u sleep well at nite?
    @kim5564 ‏@kim_5564 2h
    @PCNoMore great can any1 basically cooperate with schemeteam false narrative? Lies were blatent @mattgutmanABC @rzimmermanjr

    Matt Gutman ‏@mattgutmanABC 37m
    @kim_5564 @PCNoMore @rzimmermanjr schemeteam?
    Retweeted by Robert Zimmerman JR
    Hide conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Sorry if that is hard to read…I don’t know how to paste a whole conversation from twitter to here. What it is is a back and forth bewtween Jr. and Matt Gutman…I find it interesting.

      • Rachael says:

        I have no idea what’s being said or by whom. I don’t tweet or twitter or whatever

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Here’s a quickie version – I deleted a retweet from someone else by Jr. and took out all the extra garbage.

        From Matt – @rzimmermanjr yet you don’t mention that we uncovered the photo which the defense used to get your brother bail!

        .From Jr – @mattgutmanABC “BC he was black” is race-baiting garbage you reported as FACT. Pictures ARE facts, which journalists should “uncover”.

        From Matt @rzimmermanjr it’s also fact that we were first 2 report the medical report on his injuries plus the picture of his head wound. Get it right

        All of these were tweeted about 24 hours ago.

    • groans says:

      Sorry if I sound dumb, but I don’t speak Twitter.

      Is everything above the last paragraph a “retweet” by killer’s brother of several prior tweets? I thought I was following the chain, but the “@kim5564 @kim5564” doesn’t fit the pattern of the preceding ones. And I don’t quite understand the final paragraph.

      Thanks in advance for any translation, if you choose to offer any!

      (That thing about old dogs and new tricks is feeling more personal every day…!)

    • Jun says:

      It is more of the “liberal media” spiel

      Fogen Jr is an idiot and he is the only race baiter in the issue

      ABC reported the whole thing

      Fogen Jr just simply does not like hearing anything that is true and is against the killer, that is all

      Fogen Jr claims they are against him but he just cant stand the truth, taking a line from Jack Nicholson

  25. Two sides to a story says:

    Unfortunately they posted some of yesterday’s topics, but not the HOA case segment. The description is here –

  26. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    did anybody watch O’Reilly Factor lastnight?

  27. colin black says:

    OT Watching this La Violete lady under cross is driveing me insane.
    She is an alleged domestic violence expert testifying on behalf of Jodi Arias.
    Why wont the Judge tell her to answer a question yes or no.
    She takes it upon herself to be combative with the prosecuter an refuses to answer questions without going of topic.

    In Scotland this is called prevarication an a wittness can be held in contempt an jailed for prevariccvating.

    • looolooo says:

      @Colin, I about ready to throw something at the TV! ms. La Violete is extremely biased, and is displaying absolutly NO objectivity. She won’t even consider the possibility that Miss. Arias may just be less than honest and forthcoming about ANYTHING! And I’ve been waiting for the judge to force her to answer Mr. Martinez’s questions. But she hasn’t, and he hasn’t asked the judge to force her. Why? I remember that Judge Perry instructed a few reluctant experts to answer questions in the Casey Anthony case.

      Speaking of Casey Anthony, does anyone know if there’s an investigation into George and Lee Anthony’s incestuous rape of Casey? Just wondering.

      Is La Violete related to Rene Stuzman or something?

  28. ay2z says:

    The Alford plea would allow this killer to avoid telling anything about the Colonial apartments mail kiosk, and any involvement of Grace, his sis, his rock in targetting Trayvon that night?

    Sis Grace was part of this killer’s emotion, his wife was part of this killer’s emotion. He had a duty to eliminate threats to these women, and he did.

    • ay2z says:

      Sis’s involvement would not be an element of the crime even if she was part of the surveillance team?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        If we see Fogen plea, it might just be to protect sis and wife.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Am more inclined to think whispery Sistuh’s troubles center on her active role in helping structure the donations and socking money into in her own account … details more likely to come out in the perjury trial, if wifey fails to flip and/or cop a plea.

      • Rachael says:

        Oh puhleeze, like now he’s some gallant knight in shining armor? He threw his wife under the bus. Why would he protect her now? Maybe he’d protect sis, I don’t know. But not his wife. Though I doubt he’d really protect anyone but himself. Ever. He brings a whole new meaning to the word self-defense.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, indeed, Rachael, this is the murdering clod who threw in the gratuitious “my wife’s a mess” remark when trying to chat up Singleton.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ya might see different behavior when the heat is on full blast. But you could be right!

        And it’s more likely that Sis is up to her eyeballs in Peter Pan and nothing more . . . will be interesting to see what happens.

  29. Trained Observer says:

    While waiting for the professor’s take on what Bruce did, here’s a bit of amusement that might help Rene Stutzman in her endeavors.
    Comments under the post are rich, too. …

  30. SearchingMind says:

    @ TSTAS

    “But how does being involved in the civil suit make him opposing counsel? Wouldn’t OM have to be involved in the civil suit in order for Crump to be opposing counsel?

    Excellent question. The answer would be: no, because of the following:

    The very moment Ms. Fulton approached Mr. Crump for advice and contracted him to prepare possible future legal action/civil suit against GZ because of the death of her son Trayvon, Mr. Crump became Ms. Fulton’s counsel. Attorney client privilege kicked in at that very moment – with regard to everything Mr. Crump and Ms. Fulton discussed- and agreed upon with each other. The “work product privilege” also kicked in and protects all the fruits of the labor engaged in by Mr. Crump in preparation of that possible future legal action/law suit against GZ. Mark the key words: (a) retained as attorney to (b) prepare (c) a possible (d) future (e) law suit. Once these requirements are met, the “opposing counsel” is born.

    Because GZ is the target of that possible future legal action/law suit, Mr. Crump automatically became an “opposing counsel” relative to GZ in ALL proceedings arising from the death of Trayvon.

    Mr. Crump thus does not need to be a party to the criminal case in order to qualify/be treated as opposing counsel in the criminal proceedings against GZ. Whether or not (a) the civil law suit against GZ has formally commenced and/or (b) GZ has his own counsel is/are not relevant (and GZ can as well choose to be his own counsel).

    • SearchingMind says:

      The above is gleaned from established case law. There is absolutely no way the Appeals Court will rule that Crump is NOT and opposing counsel. What worries me though is the waiver-question (O’Mara alleges that Crump publicly stated that he is not asserting work product privilege). Judge Nelson did not address that.

      Maybe the Professor would?

      • Xena says:


        What worries me though is the waiver-question (O’Mara alleges that Crump publicly stated that he is not asserting work product privilege). Judge Nelson did not address that.

        Judge Nelson’s order can be understood to have addressed that. It’s page 3 of her order where she cites Horning-Keating and Hickman v. Taylor.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Ah, okay, that makes sense now. Thank you for spelling that out!

  31. Rachael says:

    Do you ever want to just reach through the computer and slap someone?

    “Wow, just wow. That article puts things in perspective doesn’t it? They have taken over our justice system and our country. It will be hard to get them out of the White House now they have had a taste of that power.”

  32. ay2z says:

    Turn the World Around

  33. ay2z says:

    Cool Blue Honda Shadow riding tune…..

  34. ay2z says:

    Ooooo! Suspense….

    • ay2z says:

      Bruce the Blackwell….

      • ay2z says:

        Re-reading Bruce’s response to motion for reconsideration.

        “not an open invitation for an unhappy litigant to…. discuss the bottomless depth of the displeasure one might feel toward the court”

        (alluding to the defendant’s displeasure at Judge Nelson…. no, that can’t be what has caught Prof’s eye)

      • ay2z says:

        Three criteria must be met– one of these criteria is the requirement for the defendant to show that Crump had information crucial to the preparation of the case, and that this information could not be obtained from another source. The defense deposed Witness 8 and prepared a video of her deposition. If the defense learned what they needed from another source (Witness 8(, why would they they need to depose Crump for the same information (fishing trip), except to discredit the lawyer?

      • groans says:

        My favorite “Bruce the Blackwell” line is from his 2/20/2013 Response in Opposition to Defendant’s Motion to Compel.

        In the “Conclusion,” he states:

        … [T]he Court should not countenance the efforts of this victim’s admitted killer to prepare his defense on the borrowed wits of his parents’ attorney.

        That sums it up and says it all.

      • ay2z says:

        Love it Groans… thx.

      • ay2z says:

        Trent provides West’s argument to depose Ben Crump during the Feb 22 hearing.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Take heart,everyone. The Order inviting the State (and Mr. Crump/Blackswell) to respond is just how the system is predetermined/designed to work – in ALL appellate procedures regarding Writs of Certiorari. The invitation to show cause says wholly nothing (positive or negative) on what the Appellate Court thinks of the Petition for Writ of Certiorari. What we are witnessing now is just the Appellate Court following routine protocols.

      That said, I think folks should buckle their shoes, fasten their belts and be prepared for the worst case scenario (i.e. Court issued subpoena for Crump’s deposition) – no matter how improbable it might appear. The Professor would tell us that even when he is convinced that his case is airtight, a healthy amount of anxiety lingers until the Court actually decides. Until then, no predictions, no assumptions and no celebrations. GZ/O’Mara is/are facing the proverbial life and death struggle with their backs against the wall. Expect them to lash out. Expect them to gamble big as with the Writ of Cert. Once in a while, the gambler hits the jack-pot. Hopefully, not this time.

      • ay2z says:

        Thanks, will do, good advice.

        Have to wonder what Chris Serino added to this issue, when he was deposed and what the phone records to the SPD reveal about the female who was withholding her statement, but said something different, as Serino told fogen when he failed to ‘jog’ fogen’s memory of the night by playing the 911 calls for him the first time.

      • esentrick says:

        Great advice! Although I’m praying for a denial

      • Jun says:

        I would not even worry about it

        Omara’s argument is dumb as hell

        Crump is opposing counsel, otherwise, Crump could legitimately depose Omara for his lawsuit against Fogenhats

        And even if he does depose Crump, Crump does not have to answer any questions and he pretty much answered everything that needs be, and Blackwell will be there to make sure Omara does not get out of scope

        Lastly 3.220 allows Crump to object to the deposition again at the last minute, and then we have another hearing on the issue

        So all that work will lead to absolutely nothing new

      • gbrbsb says:

        Buckled, belted, and well prepared because some luck the defence is gonna have!

      • Malisha says:

        To me, about the most peculiar thing that has happened in this case (re media) is Baez giving a comment to the press that the case was weak and that he thought that from the start.

        If so why didn’t he take the case? I understand Hannity would have paid him. Have I got several memories mixed up together?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Malisha, maybe he meant weak from the defense’s P.O.V.

  35. I am working on another post that may require at most 2 more hours.

    It should be worth the wait.

    The title is:

    I saw what you did there Bruce

  36. kllypyn says:


    • gbrbsb says:

      No offence intended, but if you mean for people to read your comment, has no-one ever commented to you how hard it is to follow u/c text, more especially if it is a “sans serif” (typeface lacking the start and end of stroke projections, reminiscent to when romans chiselled them in stone and which lead the eye along each line of text), which is why any designer worth their salt will never use u/c for body text.

      A smattering of paragraphs for better comprehension wouldn’t go amiss either!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ditto. Formatting is good.

      • groans says:

        gbrbsb – Yes, it’s been brought to his attention by kind-and-gentle requests and also by a response-in-kind experiment (mixed reviews on that approach — 😳 — but it turned out to be rather effective).

        Kllypyn usually avoids the all-caps, rambling paragraph style lately. But I think there are times when he gets so outraged and/or frustrated that he can’t seem to contain himself. It’s too bad, though, because his message doesn’t get heard. I mean, who can read that mess without getting a headache?

        • gbrbsb says:

          Exactly, I had to give up reading the comment when they clearly had something they wanted to say. Any way they have apologised and are going to re-type it normally so they must have forgotten in the midst of their outrage.

      • kllypyn says:

        I’m sorry i was angry when i posted that on another blog.

      • kllypyn says:

        I will retype and post it again later.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Thank you very much kllypyn. It is impossible to read your comment and in the end I gave up which is a pity as you very clearly had something you really really wanted to say.

          As I explained it is for a tried and tested reason that body text is never set in u/c which is used only to gain attention for a word or a sentence here and there which is when it works as intended.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Sorry … I have good vision but can only get three or four sentences in … then I lose my place. Upper/lower case and a few paragraphs would be the only way I’d attempt to read this post again.

        • gbrbsb says:

          @Trained Observer

          I understand perfectly TO good vision or not. By profession I am a graphic designer / illustrator and as I explained to killypyn it is a proven fact that the human eye finds it extremely difficult to follow and read u/c text for more than a few words or a sentence or two at the most and this is even more especially the case when the typeface is a sans/serif , i.e. without the serifs or “guides” top and bottom of the strokes that guide and draw the eye along the text line. I am used to working with text and after a few sentences I found it too much effort and stopped.

          On the upside killpyn has apologised and is planning to rewrite in normal l/c & u/c, but they didn’t say anything about the paras so not sure if we will be treated to those too.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      I understand your anger and frustration. If caps provide you with some release……go for it.

      I don’t like the SYG law.

      I don’t like that it took a petition of 2 million signers to get the State of Florida to look into this case. It should not have be necessary.

      Trayvon was innocent of all the unfounded suspicions of this gun-carrying, wanna-be.

      I pray that change WILL come.

    • This is my number one concern, they will get a nut job or 2 on the jury. There is far more evidence, eye witnesses, motive, as well as the testimony of the defendant himself which is damn near a confession. In fact I would call it a confession. When someone falsely confesses, they admit to wrongdoing they have never done and doesn’t hide any assumed culpability. Everytime GZ approaches an unfavorable fact, he lies because he knows full well that the truth would be an admonition of wrongdoing. Then the lie, when disproven, becomes a confession.

      But these nutcases still deny his guilt. I bet they wouldn’t need as much evidence if it was OJ. Just like the cases of Emmitt Till or the Alabama church bombing, these nutcases wont want to convict at all despite the evidence. The difference nowadays is that the prosecution is actually trying to convict the defendant in this type of killing which is a huge step up from those times.

      • Xena says:

        @Eugene Hudson

        This is my number one concern, they will get a nut job or 2 on the jury.

        Several months ago, the professor wrote a post about jury selection and the possibility of getting a GZ supporter on the jury. You know, I’ve thought about it, and prayed against it. Each member of the jury must be impartial.

        It seems to me that GZ supporters believe a series of conspiracy theories. Those theories will not be argued at trial. They will not be able to support why they believe in GZ’s innocence, neither convince other jury members to believe in GZ’s innocence, without the conspiracy theories. Instant exposure. That doesn’t mean a hung jury or mistrial — just replacing that member or members of the jury with alternative(s).

      • Trained Observer says:

        But Xena — Such nuts might be crafty enough to not expose themselves. They might just sit quietly during deliberations, never once mentioning conspiracy theories, and only say “no, no, no, not enough evidence … too many doubts about his guilt.”

        Since alternates are excused once delibarations begin, what prevents a hung jury or mistrial? I think Leroy’s concerns are valid.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer

          But Xena — Such nuts might be crafty enough to not expose themselves.

          They believe they are superior. Folks who believe they are superior always expose themselves as opinionated, obstinate, buffoons.

          Since alternates are excused once delibarations begin, what prevents a hung jury or mistrial? I think Leroy’s concerns are valid.

          Of course it’s a valid concern. I just happen to be one who believes that sending positive thoughts has positive results.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ positive thoughts AND a hell of a jury consultant!

          • Xena says:


            Xena~ positive thoughts AND a hell of a jury consultant!

            Right on!!! The State is going to do everything possible to seat an impartial jury.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, I think the state is going to go for the best jury consultant they can find. But, they’ll come into the court wearing “sack cloth and ashes” so to speak, so as not to attract undue attention. Jurors should think they’re dealing with local yokel good ol’ boys, rather than a high powered Park Avenue Team just flown in.

            Anyway the master revisable timeline is bringing lots of people up to speed on the case really quick, so it’s getting more hits each day.

      • Jun says:

        Yes one should worry but at the same time, it is what it is

        The state and the judge will do their best to sit an impartial jury but Xena’s point is that the only evidence supporting Fogen is conspiracy theories and it would be easy to weed someone like that out of the jury

  37. A picture of Fred, for the curious:

    Fred on the bike

  38. We are back from an errand that took several hours, sorry about that. Fred will be here shortly to respond, but just curious and just at a glance this:,0,6494785.story

    No quote, link, or sourcing? Don’t see anything at the site. Where did this info come from?

    • Here is the show-cause order:

      Click to access 5dca_order.pdf

      Why didn’t Stutzman source that?

      • gbrbsb says:

        That’s 20 days respondent has to file response and 10 days the petitioner to respond to the response… That’s 30 days in total not including the time it takes the Appellate to decide, so unless BDLR/Blackwell get their skates on (I doubt MOM will), then if I understand correctly, either the trial will go ahead without the Writ having having been dealt with and possibly an appeal after that, or we are looking at a continuance.

      • Jun says:

        Yeah, that’s what I figured. It was simply to delay the trial. I heard the Fogen Gang Members plotting that a while back with this.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Won’t do ’em a bit of good.

        • Fred is writing a post about it, so we’ll see what his take is, but…

          I am no fan of what GZ did, or of GZ, the manner he has carried himself, not at all, and I am not a lawyer but… having been a defendant myself once, and having been in a position where my lawyer (public) did anything but present a defense, a defendant (even GZ) deserves better, IMO. I keep wondering, for example, why isn’t O’Mara filing motions to suppress his client’s multiple, conflicting statements? This whole approach…I don’t really know what to say anymore.

          The focus seems utterly delusional and risky. That’s just my .02, don’t get me wrong here, but some of the things (Sean Hannity, etc) seem insane.

          • Xena says:

            @Crane-Station. My guess? Plea negotiations have been going on for awhile, and GZ is not agreeable to any of them. He insisted that O’Mara and West follow Zidiot conspiracy theories and now that they have failed, it’s time for him to get serious. Chances are that the feds have talked to O’Mara, and he hears the train coming.

            Take a look at around the 7:11 mark of the following video of GZ’.s Oct. 26, 2012 hearing. It’s when BDLR addresses the court about discovery from the FBI. He says that the FBI has an ongoing investigation separate from GZ’s criminal case that deals with security and other matters in terms of “this community.” Then at about 8:36 of the video, BDLR speaks about O’Mara trying to get information into the investigation of the police department.

            But most importantly, watch O’Mara’s face as BDLR is speaking.

          • Hoo-boy. The Feds tend to take their time, and turn over every rock. You’ve got a point, thanks.

          • GPS tracking is coming to mind…

          • Xena says:


            GPS tracking is coming to mind…

            Yes, and GZ’s phone records.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That would be a terrible strategy, filing motions to suppress his multiple conflicting statements. First off, he’s not likely to win many, and secondly such an effort would only highlight the numerous conflicting statements themselves. Finally, enough of his conflicting statements would be likely to survive that he’d be toast anyway. While the losing process would demoralize donors. MOM can do whatever he wants as long as he doesn’t demoralize donors. 😀

            Some defense strategy eh?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The quicker the state responds, the quicker the defense has to. Lightspeed – Godspeed – to the state!!

      • Just to clarify and think out loud here, I would hate to see a reversal on an ineffective claim, if there is a conviction.

      • Jun says:

        I think this case is kind of BS

        Fogen stalked and killed a kid

        Was allowed to give statements and raise money for his defense

        got bond twice, even after lying and scamming the court

        is getting a jury that will be impartial

        and has had over a freakin year to get his defense ready

        seriously, give me a break with this whining

        If Fogen had not killed this kid and stalked the kid, he’d be at home right now, still stalking people in that complex and there would be no problems

        The guy was never in any danger of dying or great bodily harm

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Why didn’t Stutzman source that?”

        Perhaps because the print version of newspapers do not have unlimited space and the online version is just the print version in electronic form?


      • onlyilookjustlikejohndenver says:

        No, it’s because Stutzman doesn’t do good journalism.

      • FactsFirst says:

        I believe the FEDS were already investigating the SPD before this case and GZ murdering Trayvon was just icing on the cake….. and isn’t sooo ironic that GZ went to Seminole Community College where former Chief Lee was a professor and ran the police academy?? But what’s more interesting to me is this article/interview by Renee Stuzman, with the now former “CHIEF BILL LEE” entitled


        Renee: What changes will you bring?

        Chief Lee: I hope to focus on developing partnerships with the community and continuing what they’ve started in their efforts of community policing: working in areas that will enable an officer to get to know the community he’s working in; who in that community is not supposed to be there; work together with the community to identify problems.

        no wonder the HOA settled… SMDH…

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Facts First, I read that article from the link that you posted and, Bill Lee skirted around some of the questions during that interview. he is a racist redneck if there ever was one. BTW, the same goes for the one who interviewed the red neck! I can’t stand that woman and, I use that term (woman) very loosely when I’m speaking of her.

  39. ay2z says:

    The Fifth DCofA has now posted a link to “Fogen Information” (well, they didn’t use the word ‘fogen’) on their main page under ‘Court News’.

    Makes keeping track easier.

  40. Nef05 says:

    Thank you to all for the respondent clarification. It occurs to me that O’Mara is once again grandstanding. He has to know that his writ would be answered by the appellate division of the SAO, and that it is possible, if not probable that they will not know that W6 retracted his statement.

    While I am certainly not saying that they are unfamiliar with the case, a retraction by one witness, that does not even address the issues they must respond to (error of lower court, irreparable harm to GZ, work privilege, etc) might not even make it into the response. So, once again, O’Mara will have put a blatant falsehood into official court documents as a fact, and not gotten called on it. This oft told lie as fact repeated over and over with no challenge from the state gets implanted into the subconscious mind, which is exactly why O’Mara keeps doing it. And, I’ll bet he gets away with it again.

    BDLR needs to have this addressed before trial. It’s dangerous and undercuts the entire prosecution’s case, psychologically. Fighting a subconscious bias about Trayvon on top beating fogen (ergo – self defense), that a person (possible juror) has internalized without even realizing it, is an uphill battle that he doesn’t need to be fighting during trial. He needs to win that battle before the concept in imprinted, not try to reverse it after it’s already done.

  41. Dennis says:

    There is something seriously wrong with our world when people in third world countries starve to death, yet we will give food, shelter, and medical care to degenerate murderers like Fogen.

    • ay2z says:

      I disagree, Dennis. This is one thing that is right, with one’s world.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Absolutely, ay2z, assuming you were not disagreeing also with the first part of Dennis’ quote;

        “There is something seriously wrong with our world when people in third world countries starve to death,…”

        Humanity is shown by the way we treat our vulnerable and infirm, as well as by the way we treat those who have erred.

      • ay2z says:

        Oh, not at all!! I missed that, wasn’t doing a thorough read. Thanks for catching that gbr! Sorry Dennis!

    • Malisha says:

      I say feed him and keep him in prison. I’ll send him a sandwich once a year for my contribution to his upkeep. If a mere million others do that as well he’s good to go!

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Dennis

      Prisoners have been stripped of everything but life itself and as such belong to the weakest link of the society. They need to- and must be fed, cared for and protected. Unlike children and the aged, prisoners are essentially the “animals” of the State, confined to the State’s farms (i.e. prisons) and dealt with as it pleases the State. Except death and terminal ailment, nothing worse than imprisonment can happen to a man. According to your best friend Ghandi: “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” Another old saying has it that “any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members ; the last, the least, the littlest.” Who would you/we be if you/we do what you advocate?

      Re “third world”

      The worst thing “we” can do is to feed people in the “third world ” or make them think that they have to be fed by others. Those folks are not weak and are as smart as “us”.

      IMO, everything must be done to turn the “third world” into the “first world” – by shearing technology and making sure education becomes compulsory to all “third world” children from ‘age 1’ to ‘age 21’! I think it would be sinful if food aid becomes the solution to “third world” quagmire – really sinful before God and Man (ha! Pls. I do not mean to sound religious here 🙂 )

  42. willisnewton says:

    Speculation: The settlement with the HOA was made with the agreement that the monetary amount was to be “redacted from the court,” according to the lawyers for the HOA. Crump took advantage of this by deliberately filing a copy with the courthouse with the amount redacted, even though legally he had no obligation to file anything, but that by sticking to the letter of the agreement ensured that the settlement would be public knowledge without his having to hold a press conference or release a press release.

    I suppose if and when we see the conditions of the settlement agreement, amount or no amount included, we will know what the HOA lawyers asked for and if Crump technically complied or not.

    I don’t think Crump is a fool, and I do think he did what he did for a reason. If the defense manages to somehow get permission to depose him and if they call him as a witness at trial, he can claim that he is “opposing counsel” to the defendant (if he goes ahead and files the civil suit before the criminal case is settled, and before he testifies) and he can also be asked on cross-examination by BDLR about the settlement with the HOA, even if his response is “I can’t really talk about that because of the agreement we made not to talk about that. All I can say is that the parents of the deceased asked me to sue the HOA for allowing the defendant to patrol with a loaded weapon, and that matter was settled out of court.”

    • Malisha says:

      He DEFINITELY did what he did for a reason.
      Crump is an excellent strategist.

      • ay2z says:

        Crump’s timing to file that agreenebt document would mean that the appeals judges could consider this lawyer’s role in law suits for his clients, further strengthening Crump’s role as ‘opposing counsel’?

        He’s not just saytin’, he’s already accomplished one success for his clients– not blowing smoke in the face of appelate judges for sure and his filing of the settlement agreement proves that beyond any question.

        Could this be the reason he filed this doc when he did? Perfect timing if so.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        But how does being involved in the civil suit make him opposing counsel? Wouldn’t OM have to be involved in the civil suit in order for Crump to be opposing counsel? Not that it matters since the state has ruled and I think it will be a long shot for the appellate court to rule any differently this time.

  43. acemayo says:

    Authorities have since determined that two of the things she said in that interview – her age and her explanation of why she did not go to Trayvon’s funeral – are false.

    Many women lied about thier age auto respond to how old you are
    Maybe she could not handle seeing her close friend for the last time that way
    Using reverse logic: ” Authorities have since determined that all other things she said in that interview –about her explanation of what she heard as she talk to TM on the phone that day of TM shooting– are true.
    Also was it not say that GZ misuse another woman who did not come forward
    In his past since we must know everything that TM did in his past

    we should find out who she is and her statment on what happen
    between her and GZ

  44. SoulSistaWoo says:

    Professor Leatherman, you are a most EXCELLENT teacher… This post and soooo many in the past have taught me so much about the courts and the legal process. Thank you very much and thank you for attracting such intelligent posters…

    This blog is very unusual; it is filled with intelligent and positive posters… I love this site!

  45. Cercando Luce says:

    Thought: Mr. Crump entered the redacted settlement agreement into the criminal file because he believes that the defense attorney’s broadcasts have tainted the jury pool.
    Another thought: Mr O’Mara has made a mistake in insisting on Mr. Crump’s status as a witness. By doing so, he has caused the settlement to be entered into the file.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m still scratching my head over his filing, as are lots of people on both sides of the divide . . . I guess we shall see what we shall see in good time.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        From below @willisnewton – “Crump took advantage of this by deliberately filing a copy with the courthouse with the amount redacted, even though legally he had no obligation to file anything, but that by sticking to the letter of the agreement ensured that the settlement would be public knowledge without his having to hold a press conference or release a press release.”

        I’m still puzzled, but it’s probably my mind not wanting to get into a logical channel! It wants to know why, how come??

    • gbrbsb says:

      Interesting thoughts!

  46. colin black says:

    The most powerfull Prison Gang is the Mexican Mafia an you can bet they have heard all about foggagges dissparigeing remaks regards Mexicans.
    We will soon see the true coward when stripped of a gun an body gaurds.

    • Dennis says:

      The minute they throw him in general population, he is screwed. Unless he can convince his so called Afro-Peruvian inmates to protect him, I think he is going to be passed around like a joint.

    • ic2fools says:

      Fogen has been dimissed by Latino Organization. Geraldo also was dismissed for his hoodie remarks.

      Losing support from his own culture:

      But if George Zimmerman was hoping to find support in the Latino community, he should look elsewhere

      “The Latino community joins the African-American community and other communities in condemning George Zimmerman as what he is – a murderer and a racist,” Roberto Lovato, co-founder of the online Latino advocacy organization, told The Daily Caller.

      Lovato added that he is not even sure what Zimmerman’s ethnicity is.
      “His background is not clear,” Lovato explained. “Is he Latino? Is he white? Is he both? Who knows? It’s irrelevant. What’s relevant are his actions, his racist comments, and his cold-blooded killing of an innocent young man.”

      Read more:

      People know of his racist comments and will not be taken lightly in prison. Fogen also bragged about others doing time and not snitching on him. Never know who is locked up with a grudge against Fogen.

    • ic2fools says:

      @colin I agree with you.
      I have found this list of 6 prison gangs in florida.
      Three of the six gangs are Mexican-American-Hispanic, one is Puerto-American-Hispanic, one black and one white.

      Aryan Brotherhood
      Black Guerrilla Family
      Mexican Mafia
      La Nuestra Familia
      Texas Syndicate

      The link gives more info on each. I do not see any one of them giving Fogen any support what so ever.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen could give the Big Six reason to form an Association with a targeted goal.

      • looneydoone says:

        That comedy/tragedy tatt on his upper arm’s going to cause him some problems if he can’t prove himself a legitimate member of the Latin Kings gang. There’s some reference to that on his old social media site about “to be King again”.
        What’s an Afro-Peruvian wanna be gangbanger going to do once he’s on the inside, all alone ,without his guns, boys, and a “little sis that hits like a MF man” ??

        • Xena says:


          There’s some reference to that on his old social media site about “to be King again”.

          Wow! What a revelation. Thanks for posting this. I had wondered what GZ could have meant by “to be King again.”

      • groans says:

        Xena –

        The phrase “Only to be King Again” is apparently from a song by the Fugees. The lyrics are interesting viewed in light of the killer’s old MySpace narrative. I saw the lyrics here:

        Even more interesting, though, is Comment #2’s “Profile of the Sociopath” … and how much it sounds like Trayvon’s killer.

        • Xena says:


          The phrase “Only to be King Again” is apparently from a song by the Fugees. The lyrics are interesting viewed in light of the killer’s old MySpace narrative. I saw the lyrics here:

          Oh my goodness!!! That’s from their song “Ready or Not” and they changed the words of the original in the chorus. Now I get it. GZ left his gang in VA, came to Florida, and was slowly and deceptively, going to piece a gang together again.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Ranesburg(berg) anyone? Him and his three black followers sounds just like the new gang GZ seeks, only Ransberg(burg) may have been a little too much for GZ to handle.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            Him and his three black followers sounds just like the new gang GZ seeks, only Ransberg(burg) may have been a little too much for GZ to handle.

            You already know that I strongly believe GZ used NW as a cover-up to steal. Your sharing about Ransberg, Burgess, etc., provides more reason to connect the dots — not that it will have any significance at trial — but — remember how GZ boasted on his MySpace page about his boys doing a year and not telling on him? Okay — think about that in association with what Burgess did in claiming ownership of the stolen laptop.

            Very strange that would all happen in the several weeks before GZ killed Trayvon.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, I noted that way back when you first proposed that NW might have been a cover, that allowed GZ to case the homes of owners and tenants alike. And, that was before we read of him going door to door with that clip board, refusing to identify himself. Of course he wouldn’t identify himself, because then all the victims would have something in common, they’d all have been interviewed by Zimmerman. But, they couldn’t make that connection if they didn’t have his name to talk about.

            Now that I think about it, I don’t think Burgess lucked up on Dreamcis 3k laptop and jewelry. So, how did he manage to pick this apartment from the others near by? There had to be more too it than just dumb luck.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            Now that I think about it, I don’t think Burgess lucked up on Dreamcis 3k laptop and jewelry. So, how did he manage to pick this apartment from the others near by? There had to be more too it than just dumb luck.

            Good point! There is something about Burgess being outside of Taaffe’s, and Taaffe’s doors and windows unlocked, and GZ knowing it, that begs many questions. IMO, GZ threw Burgess under the bus.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You’re exactly right, there’s something really fishy about these 4 getting caught near Taaffe’s place, just hanging around with a stolen laptop in their possession. As we can see from 2/26/12 police response time is about 8 minutes or so. Why wouldn’t these guy just keep moving? It’s almost as though they stood there waiting for the police to arrive.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            You’re exactly right, there’s something really fishy about these 4 getting caught near Taaffe’s place, just hanging around with a stolen laptop in their possession.

            Fishy too that GZ said on the NEN call that he has seen Burgess on garbage days going through garbage. Burgess was no stranger to GZ. Wish we had the name of the person who served at GZ’s (non) graduation party who he refused to pay.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That should be in the responding officers daily reports. I don’t know, but most police departments archive them and turn them over to the local Universities to be studied. I know that John Jay studies the NYPD daily report books, I don’t know how much lead time elapses before they get them though.

      • looneydoone says:

        What better cover than ingratiating himself with SPD while serving as their snitch on black street gangbangers in the area?

        Me thinks his problems in VA were related to being a street level wanna be thug in charge of a small group of like minded posers.
        Didn’t an assault precipitate his move to FL ?

        • Xena says:


          Didn’t an assault precipitate his move to FL ?

          IIRC, it was Papa Zim who said GZ had been beaten up in VA. He also said that after high school, GZ went to Florida and lived in the “retirement” house until he and Mama Zim retired.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        If Fogen is truly a sociopath and not just a feckless klutz, it’s hard to see why Jr would stand up for him so vociferously, unless Jr’s the type that can’t stand to see the family name sullied no matter what. Plus, if Fogen’s truly a sociopath, at some point Shellie will dump him and get outta Dodge.

        That’s not to say that Fogen can’t be a borderline sociopath and display some but not all of the traits. There are all sorts of types in the world.

  47. Malisha says:

    HA HA I read a 19-page deposition once where the lawyer asked over 100 questions and the only answer the deponent gave after stating his name (wouldn’t even reveal his address) was: “I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incriminate myself).

    In a deposition there is nothing you can do about that unless the deposition is taking place in a courthouse with a judge on call.

    One time in NY I was involved in a proceeding in which I was not a party. Some asshole served me with a notice to take my deposition and the judge made a ruling that since I was outside the jurisdiction of the court they could do it only if I voluntarily submitted myself on a certain date AT THE COURT to do it. I came to court and told the judge that I would do it IF he would make an order that before the deposition started, I could tell the story of the event, in my own words, without being interrupted; after that, if the court reporter who was there told me he or she had gotten every word down, then they could ask me whatever they wanted. The judge made the order and we started. The plaintiff’s lawyers and the defendant and his lawyers were all assembled. The buffoon stated the name of the case and then the court reporter put her stuff on the record and then I began to speak. The buffoon interrupted me about five or six times with what he called “objections” and insisted I was “lying” and wanted to “strike” my testimony. Each time he did so I repeated the same sentence: Deponent hereby pauses this deposition until Judge [whatever] issues a ruling on this matter. We would then wait until the judge’s next break and the buffoon would spout off all his rage and start giving HIS version of the story. Then the judge would come into the room, I would tell him what happened, and the judge would rule that I can continue uninterrupted and that the court reporter was to “strike all the commentary that took place between her pause and my ruling.” He did this three times and then told the buffoon that if it happened one more time he would end the deposition and order sanctions against the lawyer.

    So the judge went back to the bench and the buffoon told the court reporter, “This deposition is ended, wrap up and we’re leaving.” I said, “The judge has ordered that I can continue my statement; you may leave but the court reporter must stay and transcribe the rest of my statement.” He started a fit because HE was paying the court reporter. I said, “please call the judge in” and then he caved, told the court reporter she could finish taking my statement, but he was leaving because “I’m not going to sit there and be forced to listen to her lies.” So he left and I spoke for another hour or so.

    When I left he was still in the hallway and as we left the courthouse building he followed us screaming obscenities and shouting at me that he knew I was crazy because he had read my “psychologicals” — whatever they are.

    • Trained Observer says:

      This was great with mid-morning coffee. I definitely want to know more about your psychologicals, and those of several colleagues as well. 🙂 🙂 🙂

      • Malisha says:

        My “psychologicals” said I was ugly, my mother dressed me funny, I didn’t know the meaning of the word “audacious” and I was smarter than anyone but a female lawyer in New York. But they concluded that I was a good mother and then, 30 years later, my own kid concurred (and by now, I dress MYSELF funny).

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha- yeah those psychologicals are a hoot! I’m afraid that mine would also be “bad” since being gay and opinionated would certainly place me outside society’s “good girl” list. I’m proud to be in such august company!

          Sent from my iPod

      • Trained Observer says:

        Love it! BTW, dressing funny (or anyway we please) is an American freedom we all deserve.

        Hoodies Up

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Malisha. LOL You are just too crazy. I am rolling. Made my morning.

    • omg Malisha you got a million stories of these types of things! you are the sharpest *hellcat* I’ve ever kinda known 🙂 and my favorite!
      it’s too bad for the justice system & the ones who need it the most, that you aren’t a judge!

      • Malisha says:

        I bought judge’s robes in a thrift shop and I own a gavel because I wrote and produced (and “directed”) a children’s play about Dred Scott and needed a gavel for Chief Judge (cough choke sputter) Roger Taney to make his disgraceful decision from the US Supreme Court (in “Sanford versus Scott”) so from time to time I dress up and do my thing. Hmmmm…maybe I should put “The sentencing” up on You-Tube for the Outhousers to go apeshit over. But then there’s all that technology… But then again it would be so much fun…

        “As to mitigating factors, I can see none other than that the defendant is a terrible burden to himself and everybody else and perhaps the continuous pressure of having been an asshole all his life took a toll on his ability to pretend to be even a half-assed excuse for a human…but no. As to enhancements, I sentence the defendant to LIFE in prison and when he gets out, he is required to be married to Shellie.”

  48. fauxmccoy says:


  49. SearchingMind says:

    Writ of Certiorari Procedure: Parties to

    Pursuant to Rule 9.020(g) of the Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure, Parties are:

    (1) Appellant. A party who seeks to invoke the appeal jurisdiction of a court.

    (2) Appellee. Every party in the proceeding in the lower tribunal other than an appellant.

    (3) Petitioner. A party who seeks an order under rule 9.100 or rule 9.120.

    (4) Respondent. Every other party in a proceeding brought by a petitioner.

    Surely, nothing prevents Mr. Crump/Mr. Blackswell from responding to the Writ, or joining in the proceedings and filing a response. The Rules of Appellate Procedure provides for such different alts.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      FWIW – Agreed – The State, the Court and Blackwell are invited as “Respondents” to respond to the Petition for Writ.

  50. bettykath says:

    Thanks for this explanation.

  51. kenteoth says:

    I doubt it if fogen or the defense will budge for anything but trying to get all charges dropped and go free……I don’t think it will happen, but fogen wants nothing less than to be free…….

    • GZ would have been a free man if he’d have stay his a## in his truck and let the police handle the situation.

      • Xena says:


        GZ would have been a free man if he’d have stay his a## in his truck and let the police handle the situation.

        BINGO! Which is also why he will never be free. Life in prison. It’s all God’s plan.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @SG2, you are right even though there was no reason for this POS to even call LE on Trayvon, seeing that he wasn’t doing anything wrong or illegal. what’s even more is the fact that he is not even remorseful and, I hope he rots in prison where he belongs.

        Maybe he will run into some real thugs, who will give him a real beat down like the one he lied about Trayvon giving him. he can request PC all he wants because, if somebody wants to get to him bad enough, they will find a way. and, IMO he has got what ever happens to him coming. the smart thing for him to have done, was to leave this child alone because, Trayvon wasn’t bothering him or anybody else.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen may have been embarrassed as all get out when cops determined Trayvon was 17, unarmed, and a guest of a resident and told him (Fogen, not Trayvon) to knock off the nonsense.

        But sooner or later, given his twisted mind, Fogen would have overcome his embarrassment and tried the same predator stunt on some other mark.

        He’s a menace to the community and shouldn’t be walking around free with only an ankle monitor. No matter what MOM says about him holing up at home, I’m thinking he gets out more than we think.

        Who wants to be caught in the crossfire when some other gun nut recognizes him and Fogen unholsters once again “in defence,” of course.

        Doubt if he cares at this point that it’s illegal for him to carry.

    • kllypyn says:

      if he left trayvon alone or at most speared his life he’d be free. He began his road to prison years ago.

      • Tzar says:

        at most spared his life he’d be free

        actually had he done all the things he did that night except for shooting Mr. Martin, he would or should have served time for assault and illegal detainment

        • kllypyn says:

          It’s possible he might have gotten probation.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Tzar –
            @ Kelly –
            @ Professor Leatherman and Class –

            Tzar, we have had many sage observations on this site, and your statement, “actually had he done all the things he did that night except for shooting Mr. Martin, he would or should have served time for assault and illegal detainment” — that statement, Tsar, is zooming toward the top of the list.

            Kelly offers that Zimmerman could simply have gotten probation.

            Quite the contrast to what Zimmerman faces now!

            Supposing Zimmerman was a sincere, though misguided NW guy, stupidly packing heat during the event, and stupidly pursuing a teen that he misguidedly thought was doing something harmful or illegal, and for the sake of taking the racial flashpoint out of it (because this is a theoretical discussion), let’s say the NW guy is white and his “suspect” Trayvon is white.

            And the scenario proceeds as we have seen and heard, from 311 call part-way through Jenna’s 911 call, with cops en route – BUT ZIMMERMAN DOES NOT PULL THE TRIGGER.

            As he later explains “I was just holding the guy until the cops arrived. I called them, and I knew they were on their way.”

            A scared, shaken and likely sobbing Trayvon is led over to Brandi’s house, where the cops take his story, including facing the muzzle of that gun and his screams and inability to escape, as Zimmerman had him pinned to the ground (which the cops observed on arrival).

            Zimmerman is cuffed and taken to Sanford PD. They have the 311 call and the 911 calls (none, of course, report any shooting, and nobody saw the gun but Trayvon.) Zimmerman admits holding the gun on Trayvon.

            Neither Zimmerman nor Trayvon is injured, although Zimmerman has some minor scrapes and bleeding from some unknown source (although he claims Trayvon assaulted him, but no blood or Zimmerman DNA is found on Trayvon’s hands, or the cuffs and sleeves of his clothing). Trayvon does complain of muscle pain from some combat holds place upon him by Zimmerman but is otherwise unmarked.

            OK Team Leatherman — what is “the rest of the story’?

            A. What charges would Zimmerman face?

            B. What potential penalties (if charged and convicted) would Zimmerman face?

            C. Could the HOA or Zimmerman, personally, be sued by Trayvon’s family, on his behalf (Trayvon being a minor at 17)? For what?

            D. Would it make a difference to A, B or C if Zimmerman were remorseful, apologetic, and frankly stunned by how badly the whole thing went down? That he thought Trayvon would just wait for the cops to arrive. If Zimmerman says he didn’t expect to “grapple” with Trayvon, and he’s really sorry it turned out that way? He now knows he was wrong but says the event just escalated out of his control and he drew his weapon only for the last minute to be sure “the suspect” would not escape. Says he would never harm “the suspect.” He wants to apologize, and feels humiliated. Is this attitude one that would mitigate whatever charges he could face?

            OK, Team –

            I now invite your conjectures on A, B, C and D …

            (and I give thanks to Tzar and Kelly)

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Unlawful imprisonment, kidnap, unlawful detention, menacing, armed assault. The HOA and GZ would still be toast, especially the kidnapping charge. Things get pretty serious, pretty darned fast, when an armed civilian assaults another person, especially a child, with a deadly weapon.

            From his law classes GZ knew he faced some really serious charges. He also knew that if the public had a chance to observe Trayvon’s child like demeanor, he’d never stand a chance of beating the charges. Like someone else said, his best chance of beating this charge would have been to go into court really quick, before all the evidence had been gathered an analyzed.

            Although Wolfinger and Lee tried their level best to do him a favor, in fact they didn’t help him at all by delaying the filing of charges.

      • Malisha says:

        Here’s my educated guess on what would have happened had Fogen done everything he DID DO but NOT shoot Trayvon Martin:

        Timothy Smith arrives on the scene. Fogen explains to him that the suspect was trying to get away.

        Smith cuffs Trayvon and advises him of his rights. Trayvon is still crying. Some of the neighbors take Fogen’s part and say the kid was threatening either him or them.

        The cops either leave the cell phone on the ground for someone to find and discard or they seize it for evidence against Trayvon Martin. Fogen goes to the station house with Timothy Smith (riding in the FRONT next to him) while Trayvon is cuffed in the back, still in shock and terrified.

        They book Trayvon for a half dozen felonies and call Tracey, who comes right down and gets told the bail is $50,000; he will have to appear with Trayvon in court in the morning; no more information available.

        Smith tries to get Trayvon to confess.

        Trayvon’s family gets him a good lawyer who then has to fight for six months to get him out of jail or they put up bond and get him out but he’s not allowed to leave Seminole County so he has to finish high school in a different school. Finally, the family and their lawyer that they have hired, after spending ALL THEIR MONEY, get it resolved in a way that may even involve Trayvon having to plead to some misdemeanor.

        Fogen is raised to the position of King of Watch Captains and he continues his armed patrols of the neighborhood until he either drives out ALL the “offending punks” from the neighborhood or he actually kills somebody else. Brandy moves out of RTL with all the other African Americans who do not want their lives ruined by a loose canon murderous punk like Fogen. And STILL it would have been a better ending than that slimeball Afro-Peruvian thug killing Trayvon Martin while he was “running out of time.”

    • ic2fools says:

      Fogens’ mind will never be free from being haunted with daytime and nightmares of murdering Trayvon.

      Softest pillow is Peace of Mind.

      Fogen will never ever experience that again It will only get worse once imprisoned also he will be mocked by many. I saw pics posted on line of inmates holding signs “Reserved for the name we will forget here”

      • ladystclaire says:

        @IC2, this is the biggest reason of all, why Fogen is trying to not go where he definitely belongs. his is not a man but most definitely a COWARD and, it’s telling by the way he chooses his victims. he preys on women and children.

        His days of playing Billy Bad Ass with a gun, is a thing of the past for him.

      • kenteoth says:

        Also he will not get what he wants in jail he thinks that he actually did the right thing by killing an innocent person and he feels justified in pursuing and killing Trayvon for crimes that other people committed within the community, even after it was revealed that Trayvon was not on drugs and not doing anything wrong. So to cover his tracks he made that re enactment video and unknowingly uncovered evidence that not only was he a liar but that he wasn’t looking to stop crimes he was full of hate of someone he never knew but he assumed was someone carrying a weapon and was going to break in a house. But now the tables of justice are turning quickly in the direction of a conviction. Everything he has done has made evidence that will implicate and convict him and no one else has done anything to deviate from that.

      • ic2fools says:

        @ladystclaire, well stated. Fogen will have to deal with real men, he is truly knows now what it is to fear for his life without a gun. The Aryan prisoners will not embrace him as their brother or supporter as he has experienced lately.

      • Malisha says:

        Can anyone file an amicus curiae brief in the Fifth DCA?

        If so, does anybody know the rules of filing such a brief there?

        • Xena says:

          Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure
          RULE 9.370. AMICUS CURIAE
          (a) When Permitted.
          An amicus curiae may file a brief only by leave of court. A motion for leave to file must state the movant’s interest, the particular
          issue to be addressed, how the movant can assist the court in the disposition of the case, and whether all parties consent to the filing of the brief.

      • Malisha says:

        Hey is the inmate holding that sign up Afro-Peruvian?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I almost spit my tea again, Malisha! Oh, the things you do. I don’t know what your deal is!

      • cielo62 says:

        Ic2fools- GZ is a sociopath. He feels no emotions but rage or victory. He will never feel the cleansing remorse that could lead to personal salvation from evil. In prison, all he will feel is fear and anger. Good enough for a murderer. But he’ll never be redeemed as human.

        Sent from my iPod

      • I LOVE THAT PIC!!! thank you so much for posting!

        but i’m afraid gz has never had nightmares because of the killing. he only has nightmares of going to prison for it.
        you see, he thinks he did “God’s will” and ‘hasn’t had time to reflect on it’

      • abbyj says:

        Cielo, Sadly vote goes with you. I’d like to believe that one day GZ will feel remorse, but it will never, ever happen. Psychopaths feel nothing–except pity for themselves. They will cry you a friggen river when it comes to perceived injustices against themselves, but they don’t even flinch when putting their grandmothers head first through the wood chopper. Nothing there, no feelings, empty inside. They are the equivalent of human robots. But, man, do they cry for themselves.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @abbyj –

          VERY perceptive:

          “”Psychopaths feel nothing–except pity for themselves. They will cry you a friggen river when it comes to perceived injustices against themselves, but they don’t even flinch when putting their grandmothers head first through the wood chopper. Nothing there, no feelings, empty inside. They are the equivalent of human robots. But, man, do they cry for themselves.”

          • cielo62 says:

            PiranhaMom~ All the more reason to believe that GZ will eventualy spill the beans if anybody else was involved. Since he doesn’t think he’ll be held accountable,  right now once the trial starts and he sees how it progresses horribly against him, THEN he’ll try to save his fat side of bacon.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t believe Fogen will ever feel guilt or appropriate shame about anything. He will, however, feel constant fear, constant resentment, a slow-boiling rage at the world for not allowing him to dictate the terms of everyone’s surrender, and he will be the eternal victim, out-victiming everyone, with all his family and half the racists in America tsk-tsking with him forever about how unfair it all was that he wasn’t even allowed to kill one “f*cking punk.”

    • Xena says:

      @kenteoth. GZ may want the charge dropped, but he missed his chance at that when O’Mara decided not to have an immunity hearing.

      • kenteoth says:

        Also he gave up his right to REMAIN SILENT when questioned by police and then when he went on television with that false re enactment along with hannity insanity he sealed his own fate and his defense fund plummeted…….

      • abbyj says:

        Hey Ken, so good to see you here. I had to flee the other site when that Matt/Patt/Ratt (AKA Sybil) twisted f*ck showed up again. He’d been away a good 8-10 months, but just crawled out of his slimy lair. Yesterday, when he argued that slavery had been a great improvement in the lives of Africans, that was the last straw. I’ll see how it goes over there, but I can’t handle that level of insanity. He is one sick f*ck. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Great to see you.

  52. Order to Show Cause has been filed by the Fifth District Court of Appeal

    Click to access 5dca_order.pdf

    • Xena says:

      So, it is going to take the Appellate Court 30 days or longer to decide whether it should hear the Writ. That puts things into late May, and then the Appellate Court has to decide whether or not to grant the Writ and request additional briefs. Looks like GZ is going to trial with or without deposing attorney Crump.

    • ic2fools says:

      Thanks SG2 for the heads up. Judge Nelson has twenty days to respond showing cause. 5DCA moved very quickly on that writ. I bet Omar did not count on 5DCA moving this quickly. I don’t doubt for one minute Judge Nelson will respond just a quickly showing legitimate cause.

      • Nef05 says:

        Okay, now I’m really confused. Judge Nelson is the respondent? I thought it was the state.

      • groans says:

        Judge Nelson does not need to, and will not, respond.

        The “Respondent” is the State of Florida (i.e., the prosecution). Actually, as it’s postured now, I don’t think Crump (via Blackwell) is invited (i.e., ordered) to respond.

        Also, the state’s response might not be filed by BDLR. For the Writ of Prohibition (to remove Judge Lester), the responsive brief was filed by a different group of lawyers – probably who specialize in appellate work.

      • groans says:

        Ooooooo! Xena explains it much more accurately, below. Look at her answer!!

        • Xena says:

          @groans. Della Street was my role model.:-)

          What I really like is Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure 9.310. There is no automatic stay to proceedings. A party seeking a stay to an order pending review must motion the trial court, and the Judge has discretion to grant, modify or deny.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Since it took about 16 days, I think, for the appellate court to deal with the Judge Lester issue, is it possible that the prosecution will respond quickly and then the defense to them quickly and that this writ will be resolved faster than 30 days?

    • ic2fools says:

      Apologies typo correction.

      I don’t doubt for one minute that Judge Nelson will hesitate to respond just as quickly showing legitimate cause.

      • Hey, IC2

        If you see Twinkie and Abbyj tell them I said hello.

      • Xena says:

        @ic2fools. Judge Nelson is not the Respondent to reply to the Appellate Court. The State is Respondent and the Florida Attorney General’s office represents the State — so BDLR does not have to prepare the response — the AG does.

      • ic2fools says:

        @Xena, I greatly appreciate you correcting me on that. Now I understand more.

        • Xena says:

          @ic2fools. No problem. Legal procedure can be confusing. Whenever the State or a State agency is respondent in a matter, they are represented by the State’s Attorney General. IOWs, State Attorneys do not represent themselves — they have attorneys. So, there will be an Assistant AG responding to O’Mara’s Writ.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Bless you, Xena for that nice & easy explanation.
            Even better than Della Street, though she’s a tough act to follow!
            Della’s channeling you …

          • Xena says:


            Della’s channeling you …

            The last I heard she is still alive. LOL!!

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Wow, what great news about Barbara Hale. I hope she’s well and in great health. Once you hit your 90’s you’re often good for another ten years. You picked a great “mentor” (even if it had to be intuitive on your part) in Della Street. Have to credit the script-writers, too, but at some point, they wrote to her persona. She’s had a wonderful career, richly deserved by her talent, hard work, smarts and class.

          • Xena says:


            You picked a great “mentor” (even if it had to be intuitive on your part) in Della Street.

            Wasn’t my fault. Honestly. LOL!! My life path 6 is to blame. As a child, there were few female television role models. I am a far, far cry from being Annie Oakley. 🙂

      • ic2fools says:

        Hi ya SG2, I sure will share with them you said hi! Ya’ll have the most amazing, informative post. I realized I did not know as much as I thought, but catchin up fast!

      • ic2fools says:

        Well digital cookies no wonder why Omars’ legal briefs are stretched all out of shape!!! States’ Attorney General, States Attorney BDLR, Crumps’ Attorney Blackwell and NBC attorneys.

      • Xena says:

        I hope that the State waits to file its brief on day 19. Then O’Mara can go before Judge Nelson with a motion to stay proceedings and Judge Nelson can deny it 5 days before trial is scheduled. 🙂

      • abbyj says:

        Southern Girl, Just checking in here this morning, and I see your very sweet note. Hello to you, too! It’s great to see you here. I did see that Twinks left some posts on that contentious (outta control) HP site, but I gotta give her credit. She can skewer the racists in the fewest words. More strength to her! I hope you’re good, SG!! So very nice to see you here. Abby

    • Nef05 says:

      Does anyone know why the state is the only respondent and not Crump/Blackwell?

      • groans says:

        Crump is not a party. I’ve been wondering if there’s any mechanism for him to “intervene” in an appellate court matter.

        (PS – notice, though, the Blackwell was on the “cc:” list. Crump/Blackwell are not being ignored.)

      • Xena says:

        @Nef05. Attorney Crump is not a party to the case. He is a non-party. From the court’s standpoint, O’Mara’s action is not against Crump. Rather, it’s against the order of the trial court. Also, in the Writ, O’Mara only named the State as Respondent.

      • Jun says:

        Under the rules of 3.220, Crump, as a potential deponent, can object to the deposition

        Omara is just trying to circumvent Crump’s rights by being sneaky

        A lot of the stuff Omara wants to know is protected by work product and opposing counsel rights

        Omara is also technically tampering with evidence, in that, he is selectively presenting another witness’ testimony, improperly and he also fails to note how his client has repeatedly lied and many of the issues Omara is clammoring about will be covered at trial in depth

        I do not see the reason why they need to depose Crump or how it effects Omara’s case since Crump is not a party to the case, and everything he wanted to know has already been covered during at least 5 hearings

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ JUN
        I assume you mean Rule 3.220 of the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure. Those Rules are not applicable in appellate cases.

        @ Nef05

        Mr. Crump was a party to the proceedings with regard to the Order of 5- and 28 march 2013 of the lower Court. That in- and of itself makes Mr. Crump a party to the proceeding in the Appellate Court with regard to that specific matter. O’Mara does not get to decide who the parties are and who may or may not respond, no matter how hard he tries. The Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure does.

        I hope Mr. Blackwell comes with a new knock-out punch.

      • LeaNder says:

        Searching Mind, Blackwell does not need to add anything. He perfectly represents Crump in the appendix. Both in his motions and during the hearing. If they read the hearing transcripts in the appendix carefully they will discover O’Mara second big concern. continuance. At one point he whispers it in West’s ear. Right in the middle of “l’affaire Crump” pro and contra.

        It’s a vicious slam at some points, and got applause for that from some of “my friends” but that is not the point here, the point is has Nelson violated the defendants rights, has she departed from clearly established law and caused a material injury that cannot be mended any other way but by allowing them to depose Crump. I somehow doubt.

    • groans says:

      Thank you, SouthernGirl2!

    • Jun says:

      I do not understand, what is this now?

      • groans says:

        The appellate court wants to hear the State’s position regarding the defense’s appeal of Judge Nelson’s order prohibiting Crump’s deposition.

        IOW, it’s an opportunity for the State to tell the Court of Appeals why the Court of Appeals should not even consider the matter.

      • groans says:

        Actually, it looks more substantive than what I said, above.

        I think this is the State’s opportunity to tell the Court of Appeals why the Court of Appeals should not reverse Judge Nelson’s order.

        IOW – “File your brief, State!”

      • Jun says:

        I think Blackwell and Crump should have a say in this

        and even if successful, Crump cant event answer most questions and does not have to, so it leads nowhere LOL

      • Malisha says:

        Can anyone file an amicus curiae brief in the Fifth DCA?

        If so, does anybody know the rules of filing such a brief there?

    • Jun says:

      Can someone help me here?

      Could the state not say to the appellate the reasons the court decided the way they did in the first place and also tell them that Crump and his lawyer Blackwell have a right to have a say in the matter before the appellate court?

      Seems the fairest way to deal with it is also hear Blackwell and Crump out

      It seems a little unfair to me for Omara to depose Crump considering he is going to sue Fogen, and cant let out his work product and opposing counsel information

      And why is Omara not being deposed? He did collude with the defendant at the first bond hearing and has motive to lie

      • Xena says:


        Could the state not say to the appellate the reasons the court decided the way they did in the first place …

        Of course. You have given the basic understanding for appeal. An appeal is not to re-litigate the issue(s). It is to show the higher court how the lower court erred. O’Mara’s Writ failed to do that.

        Also, the Writ is a writ because O’Mara is appealing an order in discovery which is not a final order. He needs a good basis for that. His basis is that not deposing attorney Crump will cause GZ irreparable harm. But read the Writ and you find absolutely nothing that argues what irreparable harm GZ will suffer if Crump is not deposed.

        Essentially, all the State AG has to do is show the Justices that O’Mara failed to support his reason for appealing a non-final order, and that the trial court did not err. It can use the court’s Order denying the motion to compel for its framework.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena- unless the “irreparable harm” is GZ spending most, if not all, of the rest if his life behind bars. Still, he didn’t spell that out, so who knows to what harms he refers?

          Sent from my iPod

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Jun

        O’Mara did CLAIM that Mr. Crump has info necessary for an effective defense under the Sixth Amendment and that he (O’Mara) as such is entitled to depose him (Mr. Crump).

        O’Mara also argued that if he does not depose Crump now, he will not be able to depose him on appeal (should GZ be convicted). If (and I mean “IF”) the Appellate Court accepts this claim, O’Mara shall have established “irreparable harm” to GZ’s defense and the petition will be granted.

        The State’s/Blackswell’s response will be twofold. If the response(s) show: (a) the Writ lacks merits and/OR (b) relief is available on appeal, if there’s a conviction, the Writ will be thrown out. Pronto.

        There is no question in my mind that relief is available on appeal IF (a) Mr. Crump is not deposed, (b) GZ is convicted, (c) the Appeals Court determines that the lower Court erred in not allowing the deposition or Mr. Crump and (d) that the error is not harmless. The conviction will then be quashed and a new trial ordered. The burden of a new trial is in- and of itself not sufficient to grant O’Mara’s petition. This is a MAJOR problem for O’Mara.

        With regard to the merits of the Writ, there is a lot to be said. Pls. do read the Order Denying Motion to Compel the deposition of Mr. Crump. IMO, O’Mara did not do a good work of showing how Judge Nelson erred in that Order.

        A couple of case laws I have reviewed tell me that the Writ will not succeed (based on the availability of relief on appeal alone). IMO, O’Mara is beating the drums too loud to intimidate the Appellate Judges into granting his petition. It worked before.

      • Jun says:

        It sounds like circular logic

        I do not understand it

        It sounds like it could be simply solved with maybe a few paragraphs

        Would Crump have information that would help the defense?

        Highly unlikely, considering, he knows what the defendant’s numerous claims are, and he is against the defendant, and therefore has future plans of suing the defendant

        There is more within the evidence than what Omara is telling and it will all come out at trial

        Witness 6 is not the only witness, and he has given numerous testimonies, many of which contradict each other, or is the opposite of the forensic evidence, and the issue will be brought out at trial, not the selective evidence tampering and presentation that Omara is trying to do in all his motions

        Witness 8 is not the only witness in this case that contradicts the defendant’s claims and her testimony is supported by forensic evidence and witness evidence, and this all goes back to work product, and it will all come out at trial and Omara can argue everything then and there

        Witness 8 may have misrepresented about going to the hospital or somewhere, but, the issue is not material to what happened during the murder, so there is no issue regarding it and it is at most a specific act of misconduct and at most is impeachment material and even there it still does not prove or disprove anything regarding her testimony, and is circumstantial character evidence, and is highly prejudicial to claim what Omara claims, and it will all come out at trial and hearings regarding the admissibility of what Omara wants to say

        Omara has a double edged sword in that, he cant claim that Witness 8 is not credible when she allegedly stated a white lie, and call his defendant credible when he repeatedly lied about material issues, and it is more work product, which will come out at trial

        Crump gave Omara his tape recorder, his tapes, his affidavit for the limited scope, ABC gave their tape, and there were other parties at the interview

        Only what is recorded is evidence and can be used

        Everything else Omara wants is work product from an opposing counsel and Omara is not privy to it, otherwise it is not fair for Crump’s future lawsuit

        IMO, Omara cant have it both ways… if he wants to depose Crump, than Omara becomes fair game as well to be deposed himself

        And even if they win this writ, Crump really does not have to answer any questions, he does not want to, and would have to claim work product on a lot of the questions or just flat out refuse to answer, as that is his right

        I would not even call what Omara pulled with the Lester recusal a win

        This brings me back to old age wisdom – do not throw stones while living in a glass house

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Jun

        Think within the system and as allowed by the logic of the system. The Writ is about deposing Mr. Crump as (allegedly) a witness with alleged relevant info in a murder case. Nothing more. Nothing less. Concentrate there and there alone. Throwing W6, W8, W1000, glass houses and stones and other stuff into the equation messes the equation up and gets you confused.

        Judge Nelson has already ruled that Mr. Crump is not a material witness and that whatever info he may have is protected by attorney client privilege and/or work product privilege. She also ruled that O’Mara has not demonstrated that there are no other means to get the alleged info he seeks from Mr. Crump, etc.
        O’Mara disagrees- and has a right to disagree with and challenge the Court’s findings! O’Mara alleges in his Writ:

        a. that Mr. Crump is not an “opposing counsel” and that the Court applied “the wrong test” in determining that Mr. Crump is an “opposing counsel”;

        b. that Mr. Crump has not “work privilege” and that the Court did not consider that Mr. Crump waived any privileges he may have regarding work product;

        c. that the Court did not consider allegations that Mr. Crump may have “influenced” or “coached” W8;

        d. that the Court did not consider that Mr. Crump has info that could lead to the impeachment of W8 and

        e. that the Court did not consider that his client’s case will suffer irreparable harm should he not be allowed to depose Mr. Crump.

        ASSUMING (and I mean ASSUMING) O’Mara is right on all of the above points, Mr. Crump must be deposed. That’s a fundamental demand of Fair Trial.

        But O’Mara is NOT right – as also Professor has shown on several occasions. The error(s) O’Mara is alleging is/are reparable on appeal, should GZ be convicted, etc.

        Regardless of how unfounded you/we find O’Mara’s allegations, those allegations MUST be taken seriously, considered carefully by the Appellate Court and thereupon found deficient (we hope).

        If the Appellate Court rules that Crump may be deposed, then Mr. Crump must comply with a notice or subpoena for deposition – or go to jail for contempt and hand O’Mara and GZ supporters a huge propaganda tool which I am sure they will milk to death.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thank you SearchingMind and Xena. It frustrates me, a creative right brain type to no end to deal with all the logic necessary for understanding a legal case. You break it down nicely for people like me!

      • Jun says:

        How did Crump waive it?

        He said it is work product and you cant have it

        Does not sound waived to me

        Anyways, I no longer care…

        Too much arguing over nonsense

      • lurker says:

        @searchingmind-It sounds like O’Mara hopes that an attorney will forego Fifth Amendment protections against self incrimination and admit to witness tampering. Now even granting O the benefit of that doubt that Crump DID coach the witness, does anyone belief he would give that up under oath?

      • gbrbsb says:

        Thank you so much for your very clear explanations. As it appears the Appellate Court could have rejected the Writ if they considered it completely without legal merit, if I understand it correctly, we are now to hoping BDLR/Blakewell are able to convince the Appellate Court that the Writ is without merit with their arguments otherwise we well may be looking at an appeal this June trial results in GZ’s conviction

      • Jun says:

        IMO, there’s more than enough time for this appellate issue, which I believe was a deliberate attempt to delay the trial but there’s more than enough time for this and the trial, if necessary

        As far as I know, which is not much on this issue, the appellate never said yes or no, they asked the state why they should not

        I’m honestly sick of all this nonsense, if Crump gets deposed, than so should Omara

        Since Omara says he is not opposing counsel, than Crump has the right to depose Omara on anything regarding Fogen for his lawsuit against Fogen, and Omara can depose Crump for whatever idiotic bullshit he wants to depose him about

        It is a fair trade

        If Omara does not agree to being deposed by Crump than Omara is obviously opposing counsel, and this idiotic pointless argument can be done with, and let’s get to trial about the important matter

      • LeaNder says:

        Great summary of the writ, Searching Mind. But I still think that neither Crump nor Blackwell matter in the appellate court’s procedure. what will matter is the legal argument, and in this respect it feels Blackwell has already pretty impressively done his job.

        One of my favorite passages in his response to the motion to compel are his ironical allusions to the fact that they claim to have tried to depose Crump for several month now, but never added him on their first or any amended witness list list. They did in fact only add him after Blackwell pointed it out to them. see page 6 last passage and 7 first

        I abstain from further comments on the issue. 😉 … although I would love to see them strike down the waiving-privilege-by-going public in this special case. Does not fit the case and does not befit a “Sunshine state”.

        Beyond that I have absolutely no doubt that Crump and Blackwell would be able to stand up to Mom/West with the appropriate coolness and disdain.

    • Malisha says:

      So BDLR has to do the work for the Fifth DCA and give them the reasons to deny the writ? They couldn’t think of one themselves? Or is this public theater?

      If this is public theater, I think we all need to take calm down pills because it means there is going to be another year of bullshit before there is a sudden and unexpected plea providing for Fogen getting a sentence that is way too light.

      • lurker says:

        I think it is more like giving the state the opportunity to support upholding the original decision.

      • LeaNder says:

        Can you still see Fogen taking a plea, or for that matter BDLR and/or Corey offering one?

        I can’t. Concerning the first, I could never imagine it anyway. It’s acquittal or nothing.* Offers at least the image of the “sacrificial lamb” in some minds. Besides can you beg for support and than disappoint your supporters so heavily?

        * Will O’Mara write a motion or demand to close down his college records too? I would love to know more about his credits and subjects.

    • ay2z says:

      OS story today, the appeals court is moving along.

      “Appeals court: We’ll decide if Crump must answer questions from George Zimmerman’s lawyers”,0,6494785.story

      • Malisha says:

        Well, the few interesting things about Stuntedzman’s article are:

        1. She refers to the victim of the shooting as “Trayvon” in the familiar sense — or perhaps she just hasn’t gotten used to Blacks having last names yet;

        2. She has analyzed the case from the prosecution’s side and has decided that DeeDee is the prosecution’s most important witness! (she WISHES)

        well the rest isn’t interesting.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Malisha — It’s interesting that she could spare few extra words , as in “Trayvon Martin” and “one of the State’s” most important witnesses. Attribution has not been her strong suit either.

      • abbyj says:

        ay2z, I take great exception and offense to OS’s use of the familiar, “Trayvon.” It demeans this young male’s status as a human being in the world. According to all standard requirements in the field of journalism, his full name should be used, or “Mr. Martin,” unless in the context of a quote from someone who knew him personally.

        I’m especially rankled by this news right now since one of the most racist Zimmerman defenders on the HP site is KatScharps. She constantly refers to Trayvon Martin as “Tray,” as if he is a Zimmerman family member— or a dog they put down. Many of us who visit the HP site are certain that KatScharps is actually Shellie Zimmerman, the lying wife or, “Shel,” as I call her.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?”

          Well, maybe The Shadow knows … but in this case, (and in my case), I don’t.

          If I were writing as a journalist (a previous career) I would name the victim as Trayvon Martin in the first instance in a report, then shift to Martin for the rest of the article. That is done for both genders,

          But Trayvon’s first name has become famous (tragically) and reporters may lapse into the familiar, and their editors not catch it. It is not that he’s African American, and while it may strike you as familiar, it’s not to diminish him.

          I use Trayvon’s first name to denote his youth. In a more formal of legalistic paragraph, I refer to him as “the juvenile.” Although many here refer to him as a child, I personally don’t – frankly, in direct conversation with “kids” I never used the “K” word.

          I have always called them “young people” to honor the efforts they are making to gain wisdom and maturity. Yes, they are sometimes amused, but mostly they take this approach seriously. You will be surprised the conversations you can have with a ten year old, when you ask, “what do young people think of fracking? Do you think it will create problems with the environment? Do you think it will add jobs? Have an impact on national security?”

          I don’t want to take away any of the irritation you feel towards those people who support Zimmerman and what he did. I loathe them too, and their disgusting tactics.

          But for me, personally, I love seeing Trayvon’s unique name in print.

          I want Trayvon’s name remembered forever.

          Thanks to his parents’ courageous fight, I believe it will.

  53. colin black says:

    oops I got of course above I meant to say much as I hate the acussed an would like to see a trial an sqwirm in the box as Bernie ripped him a new one.

    Then I think of how selfish and uncareing Im being towards Trayvons Parents an Loved ones his Brother an Freinds Dee Dee.

    Think how much it hurts to hear those screams as Trayvon Begs An Pleads for his life to be silanced for ever with that dreadfull shot.
    An how much more will it tear up there hearts to have to relive that event an hears those agoniseing yells an almost primordiall guttarall cry for mercy that he knew was not going to come there chilling.

    No for the sake of decency an less turmoill hurt an greif amongst Trayvons Parents Family an nearest a guilty plea ,
    Avoidance of the stress of trial is the best outcome
    To this tragic case.

    • ic2fools says:

      Truly a heart breaking tragic case. I can only imagine how difficult it would be sitting in a courtroom have to listen to Omar defense of Fogens’ outrageous lies. Then his parents must go through that grief all over again in the wrongful death suit against Fogen

  54. colin black says:

    Much as a selfish person an also a certain amount of vindictive spite I freely admit I loathe this person an his actions.And Im not just refering to the cold blooded murder of Trayvon that was just the culmination of this hatefull little mans dispicable evil word veiw an feeling of entitlement.

    Ultimite entitlement if you think in 2013 that not only is permisable to shoot an unarmed child,
    But walk free of charge claiming self defence as you feared you were about to be mudered by an unarmed child because he told you so.
    Whilst inflicting the mother of all beatdowns on you the heaavier armed with a gun you carry every where,
    But you forgot you had it untill you thought you felt he had saw it?

    Saw what I thought you said you had forgotten you even had a gun?
    How can you think someone has seen something you have forgotten riddle me that?
    Because no where in any statements do you say I remembered I had a gun when I felt he saw it as my shirt had rolled up.
    So what shirt rolling uo wouldnt allow you to see the gun you had forgotten about ,
    Your on your back an you never say you felt the gun an thats how you remembered you had it.

    No you say you forgot you even had a gun an thats why you laay there like a sack of shit an let him pound an ground you an repeatidly smash your head an smother an suffocate you.
    An still cant quite remember this gun you carry every where so the beatdown goes on for motionless helpless foggaggge.

    But then a miricle ocours an I dont use the word miricle lightly .
    Because foggagge has a real bad memory anyway suddenly he feels that Trayvon has either seen the gun or he felt like he had saw the gun.
    Either wayy its miraculous because the gun he had totally forgotten about had sudddenly jumped right back into his real bad memory.
    And the kicker is was he was right as then another miricle Trayvon confirms it was this forgotten life saveing device called a gun by saying your going to die tonight mo fo…Or as juniour likes to tell it you have a peice you die tonight.
    Uncanny isnt it foggage spotted a gun he has totally forgoten about an then indicated he was going to use said weapon to kill him.
    But lucky foggagges memory restored was able to use this life saveing gun he toted everywhere but had I suppose forgotten about in the shock of being beaten to death.
    To retrive it from his holster whilt I supose Trayvon mustve decided to stop killling him whilst he acheived his goal of raising his weapon aiming an shooting just the one hollowpoint dead front an centre to his heart,
    Memory sure is a tricky thing eh especialy when you cant rely on real world events often known as reality,
    And have to create nonreality to cover for the shocking actions an depraved acts you commited in actuality.
    So you have to twist an distort an lie an when you cant rely on the reality an have a bad memory or are dumb as a sack of rocks.
    You stary reterlling events different each time as your haveing to rely on invented reality an that doesnt corelate to the facts.
    So you add something here obsficate there cant remeber there an before you no it .
    You have rowed your way up a smelly creek without a paddle.

  55. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< pleading… For canned tuna!

  56. Xena says:


  57. jd says:

    “Sparing the state the expense of a trial” is about all GZ has to offer at this point by leading guilty in return for a chance at a lighter sentence. He’s already caused the state to spend a lot of money on the investigation. I’m not sure the state would expend much effort in recommending a lighter sentence for him unless he shows a great deal of contrition for his acts.

    If the bargain struck is one where the defendant pleading guilty is supposedly causing the state less hardship, it’s hard to imagine this being the case. He’s caused them every hardship his lawyer could manufacture, and mostly for no real purpose than to antagonize the judge with nuisance motions and try to prolong the trial date from arriving, to little avail.

    Sadly, this has to factor into his decision making. He can’t “spare the state” much of anything at this point other than slightly improving the odds of a conviction.

    He’s going to “go for broke” and hope his lawyer can pull the world’s greatest rabbit out of a hat.

    The time for a guilty plea may have come and gone. It will be relatively the same amount of work/money at this point for the state to present its’ case than not to, given that experts are paid for their time examining evidence before trial and then only a token sum to present the results, I’d assume. I don’t really know what say, an audio expert who testifies at trial’s invoice reflects in an itemized fashion… is it a straight hourly rate or would the invoice be itemized?

  58. Trained Observer says:

    Professor — Your summary is quite helpful.
    Among your points (and should Fogen be allowed a plea), I found these most encouraging:

    1) Both are treated the same for sentencing purposes.
    2) ” I do not like Alford pleas because they generally permit defendants to avoid accepting responsibility for what they did and that can come back to hurt them, for example, when a parole board reviews the case and decides to deny parole because the defendant never has accepted responsibility for what he did. ”

    Fogen either needs to own up, or risk blowback from a parole board.

    On a separate matter (the HOA settlement), I remain confused on exactly how the Seminole Clerk can decide to unseal that agreement.

    If both parties have agreed to confidentiality and to having the deal sealed, wouldn’t it take a judge (likely the circuit’s chief judge) and not the clerk to decide otherwise?

    Unlike MOM, Ben Crump has never appeared to be an amateur. and he was shrewd enough to black out the dollar amount. Yet at the same time he entered the settlement into the criminal file. All this seems quite confusing. Is there an explanation for how this is coming about or could you at least help sort out the possibilities?

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ Trained Observer.

      Does a county clerk make such decisions independently without guidance or orders from the chief judge in Seminole County.

      Twenty five years ago I worked as a deputy in the county clerks office. Part of my job was a court clerk in a criminal court where I took the minutes of the court and filed court records.

      Yes a County Clerk can make independent decisions without approval from the County Judge, as long as it pertains to documents that are filed with the county clerks office. Most all documents must be certified as true and correct and then filed by the clerk of the court. The county clerk is the keeper of these records. Records kept in the County Clerks office are public records, except when filed under seal. IMO this County Clerk has already conferred with the County Judge (to cover herself), to see if it in fact meets the standards of a confidential filing. If she was assured it does not meet the standards, then she can independently decide if she will make it public.

      • Lynn says:

        Click to access Proposed_Sealing_Records_AO.pdf

        This is just an example copy. There are certain things that are automatically sealed by the Clerk of Court without necessity of a court order. I think the letter to Crump is asking him to verify whether it fits into one of those.

        I am no professional. I just google stuff and try to make sense from all that I learn from you guys. lol

    • Trained Observer says:

      Lynn — Thanks for insightful link

  59. two sides to a story says:

    Prof, is the Alford plea the same as in states that have “no contest” pleas? I assume these are designed to speed up hearings and to allow for quick sentencings, and both guilty and innocent defendants get caught up in this trap.

    • colin black says:

      Non Contendre pleas or no contest are basicly the same I assume.
      Both cases the acussed aceppts the evidence showing guilt is undissputed an that a guilty verdict would be handed down on the basis of the prepondence of evidence in the case files.
      They accept the verdict but refuse to accept publicly there guilt its a kind of irrelevent stupid version of the fith admedment.

      But spoken like this I refuse to speak as is my right against self incrimination.
      I just will not come out an say ok I did it you got me Im bad.
      Even though its obvious I did in fact Murder this inocent child as I have dogged responceability for everything in my life .I will do so again.An the ballistics might tell the truth .
      The D N A might tell the truth.
      The screams of a dieing Child might tell the truth.
      The time an space continuum of phyciscs might tell the truth an that what I say happened is impossable.
      The differing versions of the same event I gave may tell the truth.
      The poition of the shell caseing an my inoccent victims body an possesions might tell the truth.
      As will my lack of any but minor scrapes as injury tell the truth.
      But I am foggagge and I dont do truth.
      On sentaceing the Defendant Judge Nelson asks him after imposeing a fifty year sentance.

      Have you anything to say before you are taken away?

      Yes Mam…What do you want to say.
      Free the Sandford one.

      • two sides to a story says:

        Good one, Colin. Next we’ll see Fogen’s followers marching around with placards reading “Free the Sanford 1!”

      • abbyj says:

        Great stuff, Colin. And here I was hoping for a full allocution, if he were to plead out. Your very sharp statement, “But I am foggage and don’t do truth,” says it all, though. IMO, his ego is so tenuously held together, that he would, in fact, rather die than admit the truth of murdering a child. What a coward he is–then, now, and to the bitter end.

      • ay2z says:

        Good post, Colin, you are right, ‘…I am foggagge and I dont do truth.’ He’s not going to start now, or he will find a way to manipulate the system to best advantage for him.

        Free room and board, doesn’t admit guilt, commissary and regular population for fun and games…. oh yeah… regular population. New fish.

      • Malisha says:

        I think it’s “I am foggage and whatever I happen to make up is automatically considered truth — whoever denies it is a liar.”

        (and a thug)

  60. pat deadder says:

    Does the family have a say in whether it’s a trial or he pleads guilty.I am just so worried there might be one racist juror but fogen is holding out for that very thing.I’m hoping BDLR can separate the wheat from the shaft .

  61. Judy75201 says:

    Do you wonder if fogen might take an Alford plea to keep details of the case out of the public domain?

    (I cannot hear the word “Alford” without having the West Memphis 3 come to mind.)

    • Judy75201 says:

      Oh crap, got that backwards, and would presume a resounding “No”.

    • More details would be revealed with an Alford plea because of all the documents attached to the plea to provide the factual basis necessary to support it (i.e., could be hundreds of pages)

    • ic2fools says:


    • ay2z says:

      Truthseeker, Prof says

      Alford pleas… permit defendants to continue to claim they didn’t commit the crime,

      I do not like Alford pleas because they generally permit defendants to avoid accepting responsibility for what they did and that can come back to hurt them, for example, when a parole board reviews the case and decides to deny parole because the defendant never has accepted responsibility for what he did.

      • ay2z says:

        And so far, the defendant has refused to accept any responsibility. “It was all god’s plan” and “If I did anything wrong, I would apologize…(on Hannity)” and “mentored African-American kids…. taught them responsibility… (to Serino)”.

        And his brags for his previous encounters with the law on his legit 2005 Myspace page-

        …Aug. 24, 2005, Zimmerman downplayed an alleged domestic dispute involving his ex-girlfriend:

        “Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me!”

        …Aug. 30, 2005, he boasted about how a pair of felony charges related to an alleged assault on a police officer were dropped.

        “2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!!” Zimmerman wrote.

        (story with links to original story, etc and O’Mara’s statement confirming the Myspace as his client’s page, see )

      • Dennis says:

        The West Memphis Three I believe accepted an Alford plea because it was the only option to get out of prison. Everyone knows they are innocent, but the degenerate court system made them admit guilt to be released from prison. Because of this they are not able to sue and receive compensation for the 15+ years of prison. The people responsible for this Alford plea deal don’t even deserve to breathe air. The people that run the justice system are clearly EVIL because they refuse to admit they put 3 innocent teenagers in prison and ruined their lives beyond all repair.

  62. onlyiamunitron says:


    When someone is innocent and new evidence finally comes to light, which kind of plea bargin plea gives them a better chance at a new trial and freedom?


    • Neither gives a better chance.

      • ic2fools says:

        IC now why Fogen will not plea bargain, he will never admit to the truth. Excellent post Professor.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Professor Fred,

        In Florida, for a defendant who plea bargains either way on a Murder 2 using a firearm in the homicide of a juvenile, what is the LEAST sentence the State can bargain down to?

        What would be the minimum legal sentence GZ can look forward to?

        Could he later be paroled? When?

      • Dennis says:


        I have to correct myself.

        “Under Florida’s 10-20-Life law, a person who uses a Firearm to commit Second Degree Murder must be sentenced to a minimum-mandatory prison sentence of 25 years”

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Dennis –

          So 25 years minimum MANDATORY means no chance of parole?

          Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!

          • No, I don’t believe that is correct.

            For example, if he were sentenced to life, he could be paroled after serving his 25-year mandatory minimum sentence.

            Not saying he would be. Just saying he would be eligible for parole after serving the minimum mandatory.

            He would be in his mid-fifties.

        • cielo62 says:

          Dennis- and isn’t it another 10 for murder of a minor, right?

          Sent from my iPod

      • Malisha says:

        Is that the same as “Nolo Contendere”?

        I thought with a Nolo the PERSON had to allocute, himself. Can it be read by the judge instead in Florida?

      • Dennis says:


        Considering that Fogen has not shown any remorse and chooses to demonize the victim, I doubt the judge would go along with the minimum sentence for 2nd Degree Murder. Life in prison means different things in different states. Maximum sentence is life without parole and I am confident that is what he is going to get if convicted.

      • abbyj says:

        Great questions, PiranhaMom. I’m curious about these, also.

    • Dennis says:


      Due to the 10-20-Life law in Florida, Fogen would have to serve a minimum of 20 years due to the law. No matter what plea deal he accepts, even if it is for a lesser charge like manslaughter, he will have to serve 20 years. There is nothing the judge can do about it either.

      Marissa Alexander is serving 20 years in prison because of the 10-20-Life law even though nobody was hurt from the round she fired.

      This is a complete disgrace to the justice system. Countless drunk drivers who have killed people only serve 4-6 years in prison for vehicular manslaughter. The BART cop in Oakland, CA murdered an unarmed black man that had two police officers on top of him and only did 8 months of his 2 year sentence. The legal system is a complete joke if you ask me.

      • Xena says:


        Marissa Alexander is serving 20 years in prison because of the 10-20-Life law even though nobody was hurt from the round she fired.

        And I hope that the States adds that same charge to the jury instructions in GZ’s case that Alexander was charged with and convicted of. GZ made a statement that he did not know if he had actually shot Trayvon. He showed no concern for where the bullet might have gone but said he jumped on Trayvon’s back to restrain him.

    • LeaNder says:

      When someone is innocent and new evidence finally comes to light

      Once upon a time there was a little unicorn, it asked the clouds, if a silver lining would change a plea bargain profoundly. The clouds looks down on him darkly. Yes they said, if the weather changes, but when the light comes back, you won’t need to plea a bargain anymore. Could the light return with a writ granted? Unicorn timidly persisted. Could that lead to the confession of that evil scheming handler? I know for sure that the cell phone with the heart sticker found on the scene was in fact dropped by the three evil witches Selma, Mary and the teacher. I have also heard and firmly believe that the schemer in fact had to search for the corresponding sweatheart real hard. The first was only sixteen, the second is already nineteen now one year later. Could all this change the weather, bring back the light? The clouds had enough, no more questions for today, while they opened the sluices little unicorn run as fast as every upright citiczen would run in the rain.

      • Malisha says:

        Leander, 😆 😆 I didn’t know you had that side to your personality! 😆

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        When I asked that question, I was actually thinking of the case of Gregory Flint Taylor in Wake County, NC.

        (in his case he did not plead guilty, which I didn’t immediately remember one way or the other, but many in his situation might have taken a plea bargain for a lesser sentence)


      • Great fable leander!

        next tell us the one about the creepy old troll who lived under the bridge that went in a circle around the twin lakes.

      • LeaNder says:

        Thanks, Malisha, I used to send my mother away, the family lore tells me, when I was four, informing her I could tell my brother my own bed stories. My brother was one year old at the time and my mother was pretty amused and told me she always stayed outside and listened.

        The only rather limited grasp I have is that all you need is one item to start with, for whatever reason in this context always a lemon comes to mind. In the above little tale it was light.

        Shannon, I guess the creepy old troll category does not belong to my special associative abilities. Maybe since they did not inhabit my childhood universe? .I have no idea. “Evil” ultimately had limited capacities in that realm of existence. In a way I haven’t moved much beyond that. Evil for me has always a strongly systemic component.

      • LeaNder says:

        sorry, I hope there is not more:

        one year old[er than me]

      • Two sides to a story says:

        😀 Great fable.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Gonna disagree with Professor Leatherman. An Alford might be very slightly better on appeal, if appeal were made on the basis of “new evidence” leading to a conclusion of SODDI (some other dude it) because there’s no confession to overcome. Strong emphasis on “very slightly.”

      The difference would be so slight that as a practical matter, Professor Leatherman’s “No difference” is right.

      You also have to understand that overturning a guilty verdict for any reason other than an outcome determinative legal error reflected in the trial record is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. And yes, that even includes dispositive DNA evidence.

      Outside of “new evidence” an Alford serves no practical purpose.

      Given the circumstances of this case, the possibility of a successful appeal based on “new evidence” is so small as to be — for a practical matter — nil.


    • kelsey obrien says:

      if an individual or individuals are released from prison because they accepted a guilty plea and new evidence suggests that someone else was responsible for the crime can they be tried?

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